# Kittens due any day! Advice greatly appreciated :-)...



## Marmitepepsi

Hello,
everyone seems very friendly on here so I'd love as much advice as I can get!

We have kittens arriving any day now (currently on day 61) ...BOTH my girls are pregnant as-for not very nice personal reasons-I didn't get them to the vet in time to be spayed. It was their first season, they had it at the same time (they're sisters)...anyway, I will be getting them spayed as soon as it is safe after they've had their litters!

I am a cat lover & had cats all my life, so I'm fully embracing this experience & want to do all I can to make it go as smoothly as possible & raise some lovely healthy & very loved kitties! I have 2 daughters (5&8) who are also very excited! As are my partner & I!

I know the date they mated so I know we're approaching day 62!

I have bought kitten formula & syryinges just in case any need any extra help, my cats have been dewormed (a safe pregnancy one) & deflead, I have a house full of various nesting boxes for them to choose from, also some random towels on the sofas etc in case they want to birth there, also a couple of blankets on my bed as one of my cats - Lula- loves to be next to me, on me & being stroked & held by me, so I won't be surprised if she wants to birth next to me! I have gloves at the ready, boiled some scissors so that they're clean, floss in case need to tie cord, antibacterial hand gel, kitchen roll, bin liners for any gunk...I will be also having some warm water by me with some flannels if any kittens need wiping!

I really hope I'm here for the labour, I work Thursday & Friday so I hope they don't come then!

Ive stopped them going out now (even though Ezzy the more independent one is desperate to go out still!)...would you say it's a definite no no to go out? Even though they both come back very easily & they're never far from home (except on the mating day! Out all day till 11:30pm!)

I think Lula seems huge so I think she's going to have a big litter, she's always been a very 'Motherly' cat so it wouldn't surprise me if she has about 7, which worries me a little for the labour for her! Ezzy is more of a Tom boy - but extremely loving & affectioate & lays on me on her back purring away, she's much smaller so I think only about 3 kittens! I can feel tons of movement on both of them, especially Lula as her tummy is so taught that they're squashed in there! They're nipples look nice & ready.

My main questions are, do I need to seperate my cats or just let them do what they like? They've actually been having a few digs at each other today (gently) but I wondered if behaviour is changing as labour is approaching? They normally get on really well & lay next to each other & groom each other etc, it normally ends up in a play fight, but on the whole they're very good together!

Also, when is it safe to handle the newborn kittens? I want to minimise the risk of rejection but want to be on hand to help if need be.

Any other tips or advice would be greatly appreciated! I'm taking my role of 'Mummy Kittie Midwife' very seriously!

Thank you in advance


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## lorilu

Sigh......

So you've got what: two 5 or 6 month old kittens about to create even more kittens. Oh brilliant.


I hope this is an elaborate wind up. Could anyone really be so.....


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## Temporally_Loopy

Somehow Lorilu, I don't think it is as there was a little too much detail as to what had been put together ready for the birth. I only hope that someone on here will be able to assist (whatever the feelings about babies having babies). 

I would say to the OP, there have been many recent threads about unexpected matings and the assistance now required for birthing kittens. Look at some of those for information as to what needs to be done and what may go wrong. Yes, it's too late now and I'm sure you are going to do your best but you really need to read up as much as you can, as quickly as possible, to be prepared for any outcome.

I am not in a position to help you by any means but, I will point out that, having been around over the last few weeks, when very experienced people on here have given advice and literally talked newbies through getting kittens into the world, it is not something that will necessarily go like clockwork. The worst thing would be for them both to go into labour when you are not around - you really shouldn't leave them unless there is another adult (a responsible one) there with them. From what I understand, cats will kill their kittens if they don't feel safe. You also should take into consideration that you may end up with two cats, in two separate areas of the house, giving birth at the same time and, as they are so young themselves, I'm sure they will need you.

Please do read some of the other threads in this section where excellent advice has been given about, for example, nesting boxes, what happens prior to birth, what to do if kittens get stuck, etc. etc.

I hope all goes well and that you do get some advice from others on here. People are very friendly and are very passionate about the welfare of cats - don't be surprised if you get lectured about your girls not having been neutered. You may be lectured but you will also get invaluable help. I wish you all the very best and do keep posting as to what is going on.


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## moggie14

Book Thursday and Friday off of work. You can't leave two cats to birth on their own.


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## OrientalSlave

moggie14 said:


> Book Thursday and Friday off of work. You can't leave two cats to birth on their own.


Agreed. Yesterday - the 3rd - was day 62, so 65 is Thursday. Day 70 is next Tuesday, they should have delivered by then.

Lots of good info on the iCatCare site:

https://icatcare.org/advice/my-cat-having-kittens

Read all of it - normal births, difficult births, everything.

If you don't have a set of digital scales that weigh in grams (to 1g) get a pair. it's very helpful to track the kitten's weight gain in the early days. You need to be able to tell them apart and keep records. Excel is great for that.

Try to avoid interfering / faffing unless there is clearly a problem.

Fleece on puppy pads is better than towels as moisture goes straight through it and the pads absorb it. Fleece is also easier to wash & dry, and tiny claws are less likely to catch in it. Cheap fleece baby blankets are OK, vet bed-type stuff is best.

Damp microfiber clothes are great if you need to clean a kitten up - again easy to wash - but normally the mother does it all.

Cords are best torn (clean fingernails) not cut as that makes them stop bleeding. No need for sterile fingers, the mother normally bites them and her mouth is certainly not sterile.

IF you end up having to feed the kittens yourself it MUST be done correctly. Neo-natal kittens don't have a cough reflex, in the wrong position (on their backs) it is all too easy for milk to get into the lungs which almost always has a fatal outcome. They should be on their tummies with their head & front legs up. A roll of towel or fleece can help. A healthy kitten has a strong suck and if you use a new syringe it can suck the plunger down. Unfortunately some cat milk replacers rapidly gunge up syringes.

Most of the time cats deliver kittens with no problems, some want to be alone, some want their paws held. The commonest complication in my experience is sticky eyes. The mother keeps them clean but only has one cloth for bums & faces.

FINALLY - cats can get pregnant again very soon after birth. Do NOT let these girls out until they have been spayed.


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## catcoonz

Ok. I am more of a person who wants to ensure a safe delivery before i start the lecture of spaying.

How old are your girls? This is important to me, so i can get a picture of how much risk i think is involved.
Can you also post a photograph of both girls please.

Don't be tempted to leave them to birth alone, when or if things go wrong, it can be a matter or life or death not only for the kittens, but also for mum.

I will help you but from my own experiences, other people may do things differently, so do listen to all the advise given to you.

Each girl will need their own nesting box, in a safe quiet room. It is very important the room is safe and quiet as if the mums feel threatened in any way, you will either have to hand rear, which i must admit is very hard work, or a mum may feel her kittens are not safe and kill them.

Watch some online video's of cat births, so you know what to expect.

I will keep a watch on your thread and help as much as i can, i can also give you my number if you need it.


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## spotty cats

Marmitepepsi said:


> I will be getting them spayed as soon as it is safe after they've had their litters!


You also need to get all the kittens neutered before they leave you at 12-14 weeks, to ensure this cycle stops.
They can all go in at the same time with the mums.


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## SusieRainbow

Some great advice here. I would add that you will need to keep your daughters very quiet around the cats and kittens. Understanably they will be very excited about the kittens but cats are very noise sensitive and vulnerable to stress after kittening, if stressed they can turn on the kittens.
You're going to have your hands very full, good luck.


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## Marmitepepsi

Thank you for your advice & info so far!
They are 11 months old! I'll attach a couple of pictures of them. 

I'm sorting out work today so that I'm only in for the essential things & then my partner will be here keeping an eye on them whilst I'm not in.

I've watched lots of online videos of births.

I wanted to wash all the floors but is that not a good idea as it could stress them out? Also Ezzy doesn't like the hoover so I won't hoover after they've been born for at least a week (or longer maybe???)

With regards to ripping/cutting cord, if I rip it do I need to tie it first? Or is that only with cutting?

I have scales & have planned to be weighing them daily to see progress! One question is how do you determine which ones are which if they look v similar?


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## catcoonz

I make sure i have hoovered and disinfected the floors before birth, hygiene is very important.
My girl hates the hoover, so once she has kittens, i don't hoover her room for the first 2 weeks.
Cords, hopefully the mum's will do this, my preferred method is tying and cutting, but i barely have any nails left after the labour anyway.
I also use nail polish on one front claw, so i can identify each kitten. I did try the little identity colours, but mum took them off.


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## Temporally_Loopy

You will get more accurate advice I am sure, but I think you can forget about hoovering for the foreseeable future - I wouldn't think that a week is long enough. If Ezzy doesn't like the hoover now then she is going to like it even less when she has kittens to protect.


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## Temporally_Loopy

Sorry - mine crossed with CC's post. Love the idea about nail polish, but doesn't the smell bother the mother?


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## Temporally_Loopy

Shame you can't use a marker pen or paint like they do with lambs!


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## catcoonz

Never had any issues with nail polish when put on the claw.


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## Marmitepepsi

Did the pictures show ok on my other reply?
I know it's hard to say, but going by experience how many kittens should I expect? What with it being thier first litter & their age.
Ezzy I think will have a smaller litter than Lula.
Ezzy is the one with the blacker face & Lula has half a ginger tabby face!
They're such lovely cats with great temperaments.


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## catcoonz

Yes, photo's are lovely.
If you place your hand gently on the tummy, you will feel each kitten move.


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## Marmitepepsi

Oh so your saying that if I concentrate hard enough I could possibly feel how many they might be having?

Also in regards to spaying them all before they go to thier new homes, I thought they needed to be at least 6 months old for this?
Also, I'm planning on keeping them with their mummies until minimum of 10weeks...

Today is day 62, I've read that they can come anytime from day 60, but it's usually 65, am I correct? Also is there any pattern with having a larger litter means they'll be born earlier for example?

I will Hoover & disinfect the floors again this evening 

Thank you


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## catcoonz

I just sit next to my girl with my hand on her tummy and feel the kicks. I have in the past got it wrong though, felt what i thought was 2 kittens but turned out to be one big kitten.

Some vets will spay at 12 weeks old, other members here can help you more on this.
My kittens leave me at 13/14 weeks old.

All my kittens were born between 66/69 days, i haven't noticed any patterns regarding litter size, others may have though.

I also notice the girls belly drops a few days before birth.


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## chillminx

@Marmitepepsi - your girls are very beautiful cats but I can't help a few tears pricking my eyes when I see how young they look, bless them, so much like big kittens themselves. But, no use me crying over spilt milk I suppose.

But I am very glad you sound as though you are well prepared with your set-up for the births, equipment and so on, and you sound like a compassionate person with a good head on your shoulders. 

The breeders on this forum are very experienced and give loads of good advice. Please don't hesitate to ask anything you need to know or are unsure about.

I definitely would not allow either cat outdoors now they are so near their due date. And nor after the births until the kittens are weaned.


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## QOTN

Marmitepepsi said:


> With regards to ripping/cutting cord, if I rip it do I need to tie it first? Or is that only with cutting?


If you wish to tear the cord, squash it tightly between finger and thumb to compress it, then tear it on the side away from the kitten. I must admit I tied and cut cords for many litters before I decided to tear them but the latter process is really much easier especially when things are, to be put it nicely, moist!

You may find that the mother is far more concerned with the cord than the kitten's face so make sure you clear the membrane from around the nose and mouth while she is seeing to the cord.

If she has them in quick succession, she may not have time to clean them up properly, so towel them dry. It is crucial they do not get chilled.

If one is not breathing, I advise you to vigorously rub it with a towel instead of trying to swing it as many sources of advice suggest. That can be risky if you don't know how to do it and opinion is divided anyway on whether or not it helps.


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## Ceiling Kitty

No, they definitely do not need to be 6 months old prior to neutering. They can be done from 12 weeks. You could also get the two mothers spayed sooner, as they can be done flank so as not to interfere with feeding the kittens.

Please spread the word to your friends, family, colleagues etc that cats can be neutered from 3-4 months. We are trying to prevent similar accidents happening.


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## OrientalSlave

Ceiling Kitty said:


> No, they definitely do not need to be 6 months old prior to neutering. They can be done from 12 weeks. You could also get the two mothers spayed sooner, as they can be done flank so as not to interfere with feeding the kittens.
> 
> Please spread the word to your friends, family, colleagues etc that cats can be neutered from 3-4 months. We are trying to prevent similar accidents happening.


Unfortunately many vets still say 6 months. The one I used to use did when I asked before buying a breeding queen. So we also need vets to spread the information amongst vets.


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## Ceiling Kitty

OrientalSlave said:


> Unfortunately many vets still say 6 months. The one I used to use did when I asked before buying a breeding queen. So we also need vets to spread the information amongst vets.


I'm trying!!!


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## OrientalSlave

Ceiling Kitty said:


> I'm trying!!!


I know, and any you persuade need to spread the knowledge as well. Look! I resisted the obvious joke answer!


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## Ceiling Kitty

It's time for an afternoon sleep, I'm not sharp - what was the obvious joke answer?


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## Marmitepepsi

What is 'flank'?

I want to get the Mummies done as soon as safe, but I don't want to interfere with feeding? As surely it'll be a sore area for mummies & will the scar site more likely get infected? I'll be keeping them inside anyway, so I might wait until the kittens have gone to thier new homes, or are weaned well enough to not need mummy milk. 

Also, is there any way that cats can be spayed via keyhole type surgery so that it isn't as invasive & recovery time is minimal?

Also if I neuter all the new kittens, will it not be more risky as they'll all be jumping around on each other? Should I stagger the operations?


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## Ceiling Kitty

'Flank' refers to flank spay - the incision is made in the side of the abdomen, not the midline.

Keyhole surgery doesn't exist for cats AFAIK because the standard surgical incision is pretty much keyhole size anyway.


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## Ceiling Kitty

And the kittens are best going in at least pairs, as it reduces stress for them to go in with their littermates.


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## OrientalSlave

Ceiling Kitty said:


> It's time for an afternoon sleep, I'm not sharp - what was the obvious joke answer?


"I'm trying" 
"yes, very!"


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## Ceiling Kitty

OrientalSlave said:


> "I'm trying"
> "yes, very!"


Groan!!!


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## OrientalSlave

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Groan!!!


Exactly. :Smuggrin


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## Temporally_Loopy

Did make me chuckle the comment about sending them off to be neutered in pairs. I had a vision of them holding paws as they were being wheeled away :Cat or clinging to eachother going "no, no" and then just as quickly jumping apart and shouting "not me, take him".

Sorry - it's that time of the afternoon and I've just had a Reese's peanut cup which always puts me in a funny state of mind.


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## leashedForLife

.
actually, kittens can be desexed - either sex - as soon as they weigh 2# or 0.9-kg.
For most kittens, that's 2-MO, unless they are unusually small, malnourished, or the runt of a normal litter.
.
Younger kits & pups heal faster, scar less [internally is where it matters, we're not talking cosmetics, here], *bleed* less, & are under GA for a shorter time. They also need fewer sutures, as they have less-developed gonads --- & fewer blood vessels, going* to* those gonads. All in all, pre-pubertal surgery is safer for the kittens & recovery is faster.
.
.
.


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## spotty cats

Marmitepepsi said:


> Also if I neuter all the new kittens, will it not be more risky as they'll all be jumping around on each other? Should I stagger the operations?


Never had an issue, they come home like nothing has happened.
We haven't used stitches on girls for years, so the UK probably still does, but even then no problems at all.

The kittens need to stay at least 12 weeks, not 10. The more time with mum the better.


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## Ceiling Kitty

spotty cats said:


> Never had an issue, they come home like nothing has happened.
> We haven't used stitches on girls for years, so the UK probably still does, but even then no problems at all.
> 
> The kittens need to stay at least 12 weeks, not 10. The more time with mum the better.


I place intradermals.


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## Marmitepepsi

I'm currently brushing up on my birth info with reading on icatcare! However, we have a feeling that Lula might go into labour tonight! She's searching in random places & wanting to get into any open kitchen cupboards, even the dishwasher just now. She's still been eating normally today though so maybe I'm reading too much into her getting in cupboards. 

Please can people just tell me the main signs that they noticed before their cat was about to give birth?
Also does the waters break?

Do I need to trim any hair around thier nipples or has she done what she needs to?


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## QOTN

Have the kittens 'dropped?' Instead of sticking out the mother's sides like panniers, they tend to be carried lower as they make their way toward the birth canal. Some girls will lose a quantity of fluid while others have nothing obvious but you may notice a small amount of discharge anything up to several days before labour starts. Some girls have milk up to 72 hours before the kittens arrive while others don't have milk until they are born.

Most girls have a restless stage before labour starts but 'nesting' is no indication since many girls fuss about their bed up to 2 weeks in advance. 

From the above, you will see that you really just need to keep watching her closely. 

In my shorthair girls, the hair round the teats would gradually thin during pregnancy but I used to remove any dry skin on the teats themselves although I am sure that is not essential.


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## Marmitepepsi

Thank you,
No I don't think she's dropped yet...


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## Marmitepepsi

Fleas!
I've just spotted a couple of fleas on my girls when I'm brushing them-hardly any but I don't want the newborn kittens getting them. They were last frontlined 2 weeks ago! Should I do it again? Or would that be unsafe? Or just keep brushing them? They haven't been out since Saturday, but I presume they picked up some from outside.


Also they've both developed a love for whiskers wet food pouches, I normally alternate between science plan dry food & purine, but I got whiskers to add variety as they've been eating so much, but now they're not eating any dry & meow like crazy for the whiskers! I'm concerned it's probably not as good for them as the dry food, but then again I think if that's what they want at this late stage in pregnancy then that's what I'll give them!


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## catcoonz

With regards to the fleas i would use Advantage on the mums, it is safe for pregnant cats, but do not let them groom each other as it will cause foaming at the mouth due to the bitter taste.

I would also ask your vet for a small Frontline Spray, as this is safe to use on kittens from 2 days old.
Last thing kittens need is fleas as it will cause anaemia in the kittens.

Food, at this stage i would feed whatever they want and as much as they want, you can always get them back on a more suitable diet later.


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## Paddypaws

I would be happier to feed a wet food than a dry diet....remember they will soon be producing quantities of milk for the kittens and they need plenty of fluid on board to be able to do that. Some mums barely leave the nest in the first few days so I would even add water to pouch food and bring it to the girl where she is to ensure sufficient intake.


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## lorilu

Marmitepepsi said:


> Fleas!
> I've just spotted a couple of fleas on my girls when I'm brushing them-hardly any but I don't want the newborn kittens getting them. They were last frontlined 2 weeks ago! Should I do it again? Or would that be unsafe? Or just keep brushing them? They haven't been out since Saturday, but I presume they picked up some from outside.
> 
> Also they've both developed a love for whiskers wet food pouches, I normally alternate between science plan dry food & purine, but I got whiskers to add variety as they've been eating so much, but now they're not eating any dry & meow like crazy for the whiskers! I'm concerned it's probably not as good for them as the dry food, but then again I think if that's what they want at this late stage in pregnancy then that's what I'll give them!


Dry food is never good for cats. They should be on a high quality wet food diet, and the kittens should be weaned onto wet food when the time comes.


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## Marmitepepsi

Ok, wet food it is!
I always thought dry food was good for them & for their teeth! My lovely late cat, Marmite, had mainly a dry food diet & lived till nearly 15, but now I'll introduce more wet food after knowing this.

As for the kitten frontline flea spray from 2 days old, just spoken to my vets & they said its prescription only now & they'd have to see the kittens, don't really want to be taking them anywhere for a while unless completely necessary! Couldn't see any online either, so do you think I can get away with just combing the kittens?

Also is it safe to deflea my girls again now even though I only did it 2 weeks ago? Don't want to overload on chemicals for the growing kitties in thier tummies.

Also a woman in the pet shop just told me that all kittens are born with fleas & worms! The fleas really surprised me, they're all in sacs so how can that be? The worms I can understand more, but if the mums don't have worms then surely the kittens won't?

My vets spay them from 4 months...So I'll be getting my two spayed once the kittens are weaned & then any we keep will be done as soon as they're 4 months!


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## catcoonz

Kittens are not born with fleas, they get fleas if mum or the environment has them.
Another way to get the frontline spray, would be to say mums have fleas and see if the vets will issue the frontline spray.

Otherwise you can use damp cotton wool and wipe the fleas off the kittens, but it is very important kittens do not have fleas.

Others will do things differently but i worm my girls with Milbemax (again prescription only) before the birth of kittens.

If they were my cats i would use Advantage now, as i have found frontline spot on is useless. If you want to play extra safe, just comb the mums and see how many fleas you can get.


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## Marmitepepsi

Thank you. Phoned round a few but to no avail. I think I'll keep combing my girls, I got about 3 fleas off her earlier with brushing her whole body & then whilst having a cuddle I felt around in all crevices! So there's a few but not many, even though I know the little pesky things lay eggs, might get advantage to try too.

I wormed them with 'Panadol' the paste in the tube, I can also use it on the new kittens too.

Can I just ask about the speed of labour? I guess it's not an exact science like us humans, but I worry that when I go to sleep at night that they might go into labour & I not know! Lula was very vocal when she was in season & shes a very chatty cat at the best of times so it wouldn't surprise me if she meows a lot, but I hear that some cats don't meow at all!? I might start setting my alarm in the night so I can go & check where they are etc. They're still eating loads!


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## catcoonz

Panacur is fine, i use this with kittens.

Labour i have found is generally very quiet. You will hear her purr louder than normal, then pant.
One of my girls, was so quiet, i only knew a kitten had been born when i heard it chirp, did think it was the birds at first.

From many labours, i have actually only needed to help with 4 litters, the rest i just watched from a distance to ensure everything was ok.

You will find that she will have one side born first, then take a break.
A litter i had, mum had 5 kittens in 30 minutes, which was too fast and i had to help with the cords, then 36 hours later she had another kitten born which was fine.
Another girl, her kittens were born last weekend, her kittens arrived every 15-20 minutes and she done everything herself.

Will say, stay calm as they will pick up on your stress. Not easy to do as i was in a panic with my first litter, but once the first kitten is born, you will relax.
You may find that both girls labour almost together, my girls last year done this.


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## Marmitepepsi

Thank you....

Ahhhh to your litter born last weekend! 

Yes I do feel rather anxious, especially since they both have a few fleas, that's on my mind! Hoovered & disinfected floors again yesterday...so I feel better now I've done that again. I'm a bit concerned that Lula doesn't seem to have found a spot she's keen on, Ezzy I think will use the box she's been laying in for the past 3-4 days.
How likely is it that Lula will give birth in the middle of the floor? She loves the landing & is often laying out there, I've put various boxes & cat beds out there but she still lays on the floor. Or do they almost always find a secluded spot?

Once all have been born & I know mum & babies are fine - which I know there's things that can go wrong, but I just want my lovely girlies to be ok. Lula's next to my face now in bed purring away & I can feel all the kittens moving around ... they're so strong! I understand they'll probably be about 12cm long in there at the moment.

I'm keeping an eye to see if cervix is changing, nothing yet. I'm taking tomorrow off work, I need to go in for 3 hours on Friday & my partner will pop by the house after an hour half to check they're ok! The most I've been out this week is for 2 hours. Even then I'm wanting to get home to see them!

I feel like it's me having the babies! Gosh I'll be terrible in the future when my children are pregnant!

I've taken their collars off so that they can feel more free! They've stopped meowing to go outside now they've got used to the fact they're housebound ...

Oh & wow to your cat having a kitten 36 hours after others!!!!


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## OrientalSlave

Flea eggs drop off into the environment, your house. I would be treating it with indorex, rip fleas or acclaim starting with the room/rooms they will be kittening in.


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## Marmitepepsi

I always thought indorex etc was really harsh & toxic? For humans too?

Would that not be unsafe for the newborn kittens? Especially when arrival is so imminent?

Has anyone ever tried making their own spray for the home? Tea tee, lemon juice etc?

Today is day 64!

Also, I've been letting them have access to the whole house so they can choose where to give birth, (apart from my daughters rooms)...should I shut off downstairs for example to steer them towards upstairs?

And another little Q, might sound silly but do cats have practice contractions at all? Lula seemed to have rythmatic small contractions for a few mins whilst laying next to me this morning!


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## OrientalSlave

Tee tree is toxic to cats. If you follow the instructions to the letter it's safe, you have to keep them out of a newly treated room for a couple of hours (i think - check the instructions) after treatment while it dries. 

However those could be real contractions. And by letting them through the whole house it all might have flea eggs :-(


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## Paddypaws

Re the flea sprays it's all a balancing act....while the sprays themselves are indeed toxic, they do dry quite quickly and spraying one room at a time while excluding cats and humans makes the process relatively safe.
Once kittens are born it will be much harder to be able to spray safely at all and sadly, newborn kittens can and do die from flea bite anaemia.
I wouldn't waste time or take risks with any kind of home made formula. The only thing I know that is safe and effective round newborns is Skoosh but it is a bit messy and I wouldn't want to use it liberally near the nest anyway.http://www.animeddirect.co.uk/skoos...p_jwOs8MrSah9L9IeMt946LwGl7ckz3UVARoCKnvw_wcB


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## Marmitepepsi

Oh golly, now I'm in a panic about fleas! There was no sign of them at all a week or so ago! 

I think Lula is going to have her kittens today, she's in the box, purring loads & I think her tummy might be contracting a little again. In a mad rush to get my girls to school so I get can back.

Catcoonz I might take you up on your offer of your number in case I need emergency advice is that's ok?


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## Marmitepepsi

Lula keeps rolling me around & meowing & wants lots of cuddles, def think it'll be today!

I'll be happier when back from school run!


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Oh her plug has gone!!!!!


----------



## Marmitepepsi

It's happening


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Waters broken


----------



## OrientalSlave

Don't panic, sit quietly with her, just keep an eye on what is happening and when a kitten arrives watch for the placenta. If she doesn't clean it's face do it for her, a damp microfiber cloth is ideal. If she doesn't bite the cord crush it with clean fingernails an inch or so away from the kitten. She might eat the placenta as she delivers it, that makes a horrid slurping sound!


----------



## Michebe

Hope all goes well


----------



## Marmitepepsi

She's chosen the smallest box!

Should I try & move her to a bigger one or leave her?

They both don't want to lay on the fleecy ones, only towels!

She's happy in herlself!

If she wants to walk around should I let her or try to keep her in box?

She's contracting a lot now!
What should I expect time wise?

She's got warm ears & a pink nose, is this ok?


----------



## catcoonz

Will message you my number, but i will stay online for you, so if you get worried i am here.
I have today off work, so good timing.
Will advise about fleas later, lets get a safe delivery first as this is more important right now.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Thank you


----------



## catcoonz

Messaged you my number now. Feel free to use at any time.


----------



## catcoonz

She is fine to have kittens in that box, but do you have a box with all the sides on?


----------



## Marmitepepsi

I can stick up the sides of this one if need be?

Can see the sack & that her contractions are getting stronger, with a break, she's purring a lot 

Ezzy is watching too & purring


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Is warm ears a sign??

I noticed they were warm at 6am

Now I've just felt Ezzys are warm too!


----------



## catcoonz

Sounds like they are going to labour together.
Will Ezzy go in her box, will need to be in the same room as you can't leave one cat to attend the other.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Ezzys box is here too

At the moment she's next to me


----------



## catcoonz

Ok, she will probably go in her box when her contractions start.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

She's pooping at the same time 
I've cleared it away 

Sack a bit out about a strawberry size


----------



## catcoonz

All is fine.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

The towels all bunched up!
Think she'll give birth to first kitten on the cardboard


----------



## catcoonz

Also fine, my girl does this, it is to keep her bed clean.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

First one born


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Sack off 

Licking face 
Kitten moving


----------



## catcoonz

Ok, all is good, now wait for the placenta.


----------



## catcoonz

Update for anybody who is watching/helping.

First kitten born, all is well, placenta done by mum.

Second kitten just born, awaiting placenta.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Second born


----------



## catcoonz

Good, lets wait for placenta.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

It's smaller than first & didn't seem as active 

Now meowing loudly 
Mum yet to bite cord of second


----------



## catcoonz

spoken on phone, so edited post.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Third born


----------



## catcoonz

Safe delivery of 3 kittens so far.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Luckily they're different colours so I know who's who
First one is black with white paws
Second is all black
Third is ginger 

Mum having a break & a clean up of herself & her kittens 

The kittens are making their way to teats


They're all so big!!!!!


Thank you SO much catcoonz for your invaluable help (so far ...)


----------



## catcoonz

Was an easy labour and you done well.
You know where i am if you need me.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

A couple of moments of panic for me, but luckily all was well!

I feel better for the rest now I've experienced the first 3...phew

Wonder if there will be many more - if any! She was huge so I think there will be more but we'll soon see.

Wonder how long Ezzy will be before she goes into labour, she's tiny so I think maybe only 2/3 in all...


----------



## Marmitepepsi

She's having a rest....


----------



## OrientalSlave

Let her do what she wants to do. After the birth when you replace the bedding, also switch to a box with four sides. The open side can let kittens wander and doesn't keep them nice and warm as it's drafty. I use boxes with flaps and cut a hole for mum to go in & out, and fold the flaps over. I've also used a webcam to keep an eye on what is happening inside.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Another one coming


----------



## Marmitepepsi

4th born safely


----------



## catcoonz

5th born safe.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

All feeding well!
Let's hope she's done now...


----------



## OrientalSlave

That's a lot of hard work, food & cat litter over the next 12 weeks or so! I wonder how many your other cat will have?


----------



## SusieRainbow

Have you told her 'enough ' ?


----------



## Shrike

Glad Lula has got through birthing fine. Kittens do look nice and big! Lets hope Ezzy is fine too.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Yes I hope Lula is done! Kittens all a nice size...

Ezzy still has looked quite slender throghout so I think 3 max for her!


----------



## catcoonz

Is the box big enough for mum to lay out flat, looks like ginger kitten is being pushed out.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Not particularly no...if she was diagonal then that's her best bet.

Ginger has been latched for ages, but the fith kitten still hasn't had any milk...

Should I try & move her or leave her here for a couple of days then move?


----------



## catcoonz

Do you have a bigger box?


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Yes, and ones that I can make into an even bigger box too.

She chose the smallest!!!!!


----------



## catcoonz

Ok, prepare the bigger box with a clean towel, i do prefer puppy pads though.

We don't want a situation where the smaller kitten gets pushed out of milk.

When you can tempt mum to leave the kittens for food, after feeding her kittens, stroke mum first, then put the kittens in a bigger box, mum will then follow, but move the bigger box to where the birthing box is, so you haven't moved the nest as such, just changed boxes.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Fab! Will do!!!

5th kitten is now feeding!!!!!!!! Phew!!

But gingers been knocked pushed out - but ginger fed for ages before so I'm not too worried

Lula purring away & feeding them all again now after having some food for herself & a good wash!

This is a pic of now, would you def say I need to move boxes?


----------



## catcoonz

Kittens all look a good size.
Glad it was a text book birth.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Edited above post with more info


----------



## catcoonz

Personally, i do think the box is too small.

You can wait and see what other members think first though if you want to.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Yes I'm relived birth was all ok!

Yes I think I'll stick 2 boxes together so it's long, then it'll fit nicely in the same birthing spot!

Should I put the dirty birthing towel in there at all? Just for a bit for the scent?


----------



## catcoonz

I would change to a clean towel. If you stick 2 boxes together to make it longer, the scent will still be there anyway.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Ah yes, good idea, I was going to use 2 fresh boxes but I'll keep this one & add another next to it...

I could use children's bed protectors instead of puppy pads?

I'd like to put a fleecy material in there instead but she's always proffered towels so think maybe I'll stick to towels? 

Just worried about any possible 'rejection' if I change things about too much...


----------



## catcoonz

Problem is, kittens need to be kept clean to avoid any infections, mum won't reject the kittens being on a clean bed.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Ok, in that case I might use 2 fresh boxes then as this one is rather soggy!

How often will I need to change the towel in the box?



Also should I try a fleece instead of towel?

She loves my dressing gown, I'm tempted to put that in there


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Ah I've just been sat here for 4 hours staring at them!

Love watching them suckle...really pleased it was in my room as I can keep a good ear out for them at night!

On Ezzy watch now!


----------



## leashedForLife

.
Now that the drama of [one] birth is over, please get the new mum _*SPAYED*_ ... as quickly as possible, since she can be *back in estrus * - silently or vocally! - in a mere 10 to 14 days.
She can be spayed now - ovaries aren't needed to lactate, & an infant onesie with small openings for her teats will protect her stitches from the nursing kits.
.
.
.


----------



## QOTN

Young kittens need very frequent feeds so cannot be left all day. Also a lactating girl cannot be starved if her milk supply is to continue unchecked without stressing her system unduly. She can have a flank spay when the time comes but it is far better to wait until the kittens are weaned. I have never known a girl come into call while she is nursing very young kittens and in my opinion the slight risk that she might does not justify the upheaval to mother and babies if she were spayed now.


----------



## moggie14

Congratulations, they do look healthy chubby little babies! x


----------



## OrientalSlave

Has weighing them in grams been mentioned? It can look bad at the milk bar but so long as they are all gaining it's good.


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, QOTN

Young kittens need very frequent feeds so *cannot be left all day*. 
Also a lactating girl cannot be starved if her milk supply is to continue unchecked without stressing her system unduly. She can have a flank spay when the time comes but *it is far better to wait until the kittens are weaned.*

*I have never known a girl come into call while she is nursing very young kittens* and in my opinion the slight risk that she might does not justify the upheaval to mother and babies if she were spayed now.

/QUOTE

==================================
.
.
.
.
Re "*kitten heat*", meaning estrus shortly after giving birth, yes, it does happen - the average 'break' post-kittening ranges from 1-week to 6-weeks after a litter is born, & our Siamese would be calling like bleating goats just 10 to 14 days after having a litter. Dam & daughter were very consistent - the longest either went WITHOUT shouting after a litter was born, was just 21-days flat.
.
'Kitten heat' is precisely why female abandoned or feral cats look like death warmed over - they are pretty much pregnant, lactating, or both, plus can have a litter too big for the nest but too young to hunt, following at heel & hoping she gets enuf to feed them, too. // It is perfectly possible for a free-roaming F cat to have a litter in utero, another in the nest nursing, & litter #3 treading hungrily at her heels, demanding to be fed.
This occurs even in OWNED cats, if they are left to their own devices & not confined when in heat, or spayed.
.
.
per *spaying a nursing queen*, I went thru 33 pages of posts on the 37-page thread, _'How many weeks?' _- U're welcome. 
That thread also starred an "accidental" pregnancy, amazing - as the owner had both M & F cats in her home - together.  Can't imagine how a pregnancy occurred - can U?
.
here's the PERMALINK for the pertinent post, #652, 
posted by catcoonz, Mar 25, 2017 -
http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/how-many-weeks.443818/page-33#post-1064813998
which i quote in full below:

QUOTE, catcoonz:

_"When my girl had a slight infection after birth, the vet put mum on 4 weeks antibiotics and all the newborns on antibiotics for 14 days.

*Mum was spayed when kittens were 3 days old.* Easy to plan as mum fed the kittens just before we left and *when they woke up 2 hours later, mum was back in the nest.* *I did put a baby vest on mum and cut the holes to reveal teats only, so the kittens could feed, but couldn't touch mums stitches.

Not difficult to do, mums have c-sections and manage to raise litters*, so no different to that.

I am very concerned about closed pyometra now, if the uterus fills as the infection has nowhere to go, it will burst, Tiny then goes into septic shock,
which results in death of mum and leave Jessica to try and hand rear new born kittens.
With all my years experience, sadly i have never been successful in rearing new borns, but is easier from 2 weeks of age.

If you are forced to hand rear, you can forget about sleep. Kittens need feeding every 2 hours, day and night. I had only just finished feeding 6 kittens when i was back making the next feed for the first kitten i had fed. After a week of non sleep, you are completely worn out, but you have to keep going.

Kittens can and do go downhill very quickly, if they are already infected, they will stop feeding and die within days.

Very important to weigh the kittens, i weigh morning and evening and have a spread sheet of weight gain and weight loss, so if any kittens start to lose weight, i know very quickly that kitten has a problem and get the vet to do a home visit.

Many vets now have portable scan machines, so Jessica, i strongly advise the vet makes a visit to check Tiny and her kittens.

You have come this far, would be a shame for things to go wrong now, which can easily be prevented.

I strongly advise against Tiny going through another pregnancy as well, i don't think you will be so lucky next time.

I know it all sounds expensive, but truth is proper care of mum and her kittens is very expensive.
People just do not calculate all these costs before thinking of cute kittens."_

/QUOTE
.
.
So yes, it can be done - safely. Kittens don't starve in 2-hours time. Pre-planning & scheduling with the vet work wonders. 
.
CONFINING the new-mum FOR THE NEXT 3 MONTHS until she & her kittens - *plus her preg feline housemate*, & *her* litter of kittens - can all be desexed together, is going to be an interesting challenge, & as the OP signally failed to either confine or spay her cats before this double pregnancy, i don't have a whole lotta faith in their skillz in this area. 
Maybe the local vet will offer a wholesale discount? - but i wouldn't bet the farm on that. // It's gonna be bl**dy expensive. 2 adult Fs & however many kittens of both sexes.
.
Personally, i'd think doing each dam ASAP after birth, then doing the kittens as soon as they reach 2# / 0.9-kg in weight, would help spread the cost over a more reasonable span of time, & limit the damage to the household budget. :Happy
Neonatal desex is faster, safer, heals quicker, & is all in all, much better for the kittens.
.
.
.


----------



## lymorelynn

I'm sure your points are very valid @leashedForLife but the sad fact is that the majority of vets in the UK do not work to these sorts of schedules. To get a queen in and out of surgery for a spay within a couple of hours would be very rare indeed - and achievable perhaps by @catcoonz, who, as a breeder, has a good relationship with her vet. 
So many vets in the UK still will not spay/neuter under the age of 4 months nor are they keen on spaying a nursing queen.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
well, nothing is as efficient as going to the horse's mouth. :Happy
.
@Marmitepepsi -
what's the nearest good-sized town to U, & are U in the U-S, UK, or elsewhere in the world? // It's quite possible someone nearby may know a vet practice that DOES perform neonate / pre-pubertal desex, & U would then have an option for the kittens to be desexed.
.
If U contact them *now*, they might be able to set up a budget plan & U could make payments in advance of the actual surgeries.  It never hurts to ask - this would save a massive strain on the household budget all at once, as U could start paying the prospective bill off now, at least 8-weeks before the actual ops on these babies.
.
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
almost forgot! - Don't neglect to ask about S/N *vouchers *or low-cost desex, many non-profits subsidize S/N around the world.
Local organizations should be easily find-able via Google.
.
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, Marmitepepsi:

...I have 2 daughters (5 & 8), who are also very excited! As are my partner & I!
*I know the date they mated,* so I know we're approaching day 62!
...

/QUOTE
.
.
also, it's probly far-too blunt to say this out-loud, but i think that these were planned pregnancies, not 'accidents', & were - IMO - most-likely yet another case of "letting my children experience the miracle of birth".
.
I do hope, OP, U are also prepared to share the "miracle of death" if anything goes wrong, or if a kitten simply fails to thrive & fades away; that's "natural", too, altho not as popular a meme. 
.
Next time, may i suggest a video of cats [or horses, cows, dolphins, elephants, giraffe, etc] giving birth, or a similar video of eggs hatching, etc? - the family cat is often less than thrilled to have kids zipping in & out of the room, exclaiming loudly, "That's GROSS!", getting bored & whining for Mom to leave the cat & come out now, etc.
The folks that make the educational films have the advantage of being able to get close-ups, have a closed set without visitors entering & exiting, & we can replay the action endlessly - U can't re-wind an actual birth, it's a one-way temporal trip.
.
.
.


----------



## QOTN

I stand by the point I made. Unless there is good reason to do so, I think it is far better not to interfere with the kittens and dam. I am afraid that trying to change my mind by battering me with thousands of words in both blue and red will not succeed since I only skim the multitude for salient points. I notice you cite the two girls in your experience and reference feral cats. I suggest neither examples are necessarily relevant here. These two girls may be devoted mothers and not call in the next few days or weeks. Although I normally hesitate to do this, I would also suggest I have a little more experience than you apparently do with breeding girls. I was also in contact with an extensive network of breeders able to give me the benefit of their experience as well.

Perhaps I am naïve but I think the OP seems to love her cats and I think she will take care that they do not escape even if they do start calling in the near future.


----------



## catcoonz

I have established a relationship with my vet over 20 years, so providing i can give solid evidence of what i wish for, i generally get it.
Also, my vet is American, so has different views to the English vets.
Must admit, an English vet does not agree with half of what i ask for, so i am very lucky to have found my vet.
We have built a friendship as well as a working relationship but it took alot of effort, and each time i ask for something i am aways told if it goes wrong, the blame sits with me, so it is always a risk but one i have taken.


----------



## catcoonz

@QOTN ... you need to have my queens .
One came into season 72 hours after labour, the other has just come in and her kittens are 3 weeks old.
Nightmare.


----------



## catcoonz

There is not a vet near the OP who early neuters, i have already checked.


----------



## QOTN

catcoonz said:


> @QOTN ... you need to have my queens .
> One came into season 72 hours after labour, the other has just come in and her kittens are 3 weeks old.
> Nightmare.


No I don't CC! I couldn't cope with all that hair apart from their shocking behaviour!!!


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, catcoonz:

@QOTN ... you need to have my queens .
One came into season 72 hours after labour, the other has just come in and her kittens are 3 weeks old.
Nightmare.

/QUOTE
.
.
maybe U could swap, LOL - Catcoonz could get a wee break from the cycling, & QOTN could try it on for size. 
.
.
.


----------



## catcoonz

Well, you are no fun .
Must admit they are moulting at the moment and we have cat fur everywhere.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

catcoonz said:


> There is not a vet near the OP who early neuters, i have already checked.


What part of the country are they in?


----------



## catcoonz

I have phoned around but got a headache with the 6 month neutering guidelines from receptionists.
I tried to give my point of view, but gave up.


----------



## catcoonz

Sorry, not my place to state location of the OP, but i have tried.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

PM sent.


----------



## colliemerles

glad all went well for the first birth. Hope all goes well for the second birth.


----------



## catcoonz

Thank you CK.
I will help the OP with EN.


----------



## spotty cats

catcoonz said:


> @QOTN ... you need to have my queens .
> One came into season 72 hours after labour, the other has just come in and her kittens are 3 weeks old.
> Nightmare.


24 hours is the soonest for mine, 2-3 weeks post birth is normal. 
But no shedding 

Glad CK is a forward thinking vet, being 20 years behind other countries is frustrating to see.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
http://www.cats.org.uk/what-we-do/neutering
.
.
.


----------



## spotty cats

catcoonz said:


> I have phoned around but got a headache with the 6 month neutering guidelines from receptionists.
> I tried to give my point of view, but gave up.


I've seen it mentioned on here before sometimes you need to speak with the vet not receptionist?

I assume in those cases the receptionist is purely on the desk and not a vet nurse as they are over here so perhaps don't know all the clinic offers.

Hopefully you'll find something to ensure the kittens are responsibly rehomed.


----------



## catcoonz

How is mum and kittens this morning?
Hope you had a quiet night.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Mum has been feeding kittens nicely! They look bigger already!

She's still panting this morning though? Is that normal?


----------



## catcoonz

Yes, this is normal. Called After Pains, where everything contracts back.
Glad everything is ok this morning.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Thought so! Can't feel any more kittens in there so thought it would be that!
Mums had a wonder around house a few times for a wash & some food-she seems to prefer her food where it was before (downstairs) as opposed to it being up in my room, or is it best I try & encourage her to eat up here seeing as when kittens wean they'll need to see her eating?

Also, room temp? I've googled it & read various things! What is a good temperature to have the room?


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Have a funny feeling about tonight!

Ezzy being super loving & rolling all over floor! Searching in all places too!


----------



## SusieRainbow

Any more activity yet ?


----------



## Marmitepepsi

No, just keep finding her in odd places! Behind TV unit!


----------



## catcoonz

I'm off to bed now, but you have my number if you need me.
Best to text first to wake me.
I do have work in the morning, but will be home around 12 noon, hopefully Ezzy holds on until then.


----------



## spotty cats

Marmitepepsi said:


> No, just keep finding her in odd places! Behind TV unit!


Can you confine her to a safe room? My girls always get set up in the bedroom about a week before they are due, so they cannot choose an unsafe place to deliver


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Ezzys in the box on the landing now! Just shut the lounge door. 
She's been in a big box in my room for about a week so I was convinced she'd use that!? Lula is in my room though so I was wondering if she wanted somewhere different to give birth! 

No plug or mucus in the box on landing so I'm hoping she'll hold on until the morning, preferably when catcoonz is back from work ....


----------



## spotty cats

I'm sure any other experienced breeders can check in and offer advice if you need it


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Ezzy is just relaxing around the house this morning, I'll keep you all updated when things start to happen!

Lula is doing well, although she's started coming downstairs for sometimes half an hour at a time-i wasn't expecting this.
she's licking their bottoms etc & they all seem to be feeding well. It's tricky as there's 3 black ones which from Ariel view I can't tell the difference, but they all seem to have plump tummies.

Can people sum up their main tips of looking after the kittens for me please & anything that I should really watch out for?

I want to start weighing them but don't want to unecissarily handle them & stress Lula out. Most things I read on the internet say to not handle them for 2 weeks.

Thank you


Here's a couple of pics!
Ginger one, he is going to be a huuuge I think!


----------



## QOTN

I always handled my kittens from birth. It is part of making sure they are accustomed to human hands. If your relationship with your girls is good, they should not mind. When you are weighing the kittens put the scales close to the box and try not to lift them right up in the air because they are more likely to cry out and then you will be told off by their mum.

Half an hour away from her babies is not a problem. If you need her back in the room, just pick up one of them and they will call out and mum should come racing back to feed them.

Weighing is by far the best way to check they are thriving. Keep a record of the weights. You are looking for about 100gms gain per week. It dies not have to be the same amount every day but try to weigh them at the same time and if they do not gain in 2 days you will have a warning that all may not be well. A small one may be pushed away from the teats, in which case, you need to move the other kittens away and hold the little one to mum for about 20 minutes several times a day.

If you see a kitten constantly away from 'the heap' that is worrying and needs investigation but don't look for trouble. They will probably be fine.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Thank you!
Ok I'll try & relax about handling them, I need to move mum to a bigger box as she can't lay straight in birthing one! She freaked out when I tried to move them the other day so I'm going to link this box with the other bigger one I made!

Also just cleared out one of my daughters bedrooms for Ezzy as from last night she's not come in her box in my room, also she was trying desperately to get into my daughters room this morning so I figured she was trying to tell me something! She's now purring like crazy, so I think she's pleased!

Kittens all have big tummies so I think they're doing well & ive seen them all feeding today. Once Lula's settled in new box I'll think about weighing them!


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Lula is breathing fast/panting still, is this normal even after 2days? I notice it especially when she's nursing them.
I know about the after pains but it must be hard work to pant for so long?


----------



## QOTN

Marmitepepsi said:


> Lula is breathing fast/panting still, is this normal even after 2days? I notice it especially when she's nursing them.
> I know about the after pains but it must be hard work to pant for so long?


Sorry I don't know this because none of my girls had any similar signs after birth although it was sometimes possible to see the womb contracting back when they had finished. Could she be too warm? Usually both girls and babies purr when they are nursing.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

The babies aren't purring yet, mum purrs when nursing but only when I stroke her. She's cleaning them well & still eating & drinking - not water on its own as she seems to like the juice/gravy from the wet food. What else could I be feeding her to help? I read somewhere about whizzing up clean eggshells & putting in their food for extra calcium?


----------



## Smuge

(for good reason) some folks can be quick to judge owners when a cat has an unplanned pregnancy - although I am far from an expert on breeding, I just wanted to say that I have a lot of respect for how @Marmitepepsi seems to have handled this situation


----------



## QOTN

Marmitepepsi said:


> The babies aren't purring yet, mum purrs when nursing but only when I stroke her. She's cleaning them well & still eating & drinking - not water on its own as she seems to like the juice/gravy from the wet food. What else could I be feeding her to help? I read somewhere about whizzing up clean eggshells & putting in their food for extra calcium?


As long as your girls have as much as they want to eat of a good quality food, they should be fine. My mentor gave me two main bits of advice when I had my first girl from her. One was to supplement calcium in pregnancy and the other was to use raspberry leaf tablets. I took this advice for years and always gave them raspberry leaf tablets (not sure if they did any good but my girls always had kittens without trouble,) but I am not sure supplementing extra calcium is necessary as long as they have enough. (The amount of calcium can be crucial in pregnancy because it is related to onset of labour and when the kittens are forming they will drain the mother's reserves if it is lacking.) If you are feeding home cooked meat as I do, that is a different matter. Every meal I give my cats has a vitamin and mineral supplement added.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Oh gosh, thank you so much @Smuge that has made me really emotional to read. Thank you for writing that, it means a lot. It's very hard to take the criticism & personal attacks - That said, I also totally understand where (most) people are coming from, I question some people's bullyish tactics though, but hey, it's a free world & by coming on a forum like this I guess you have to expect it.

Personal difficult circumstances cause them to go out unspayed. Have always spayed my cats over the years & they'll be spayed when kitties are all weaned.

I decided that as we're in this situation then I want to do as best a job as possible! I love my little Lula & Ezzy (they're amazing cats ..) so I owe it to them & am embracing it. (& worrying myself sick!)

Don't know how all you breeders cope! Hats off to you all!

And thank you so much for all of your invaluable advice so far! I'm so pleased I found this forum & decided to keep my post up!


----------



## Smuge

Marmitepepsi said:


> Oh gosh, thank you so much @Smuge that has made me really emotional to read. Thank you for writing that, it means a lot. It's very hard to take the criticism & personal attacks - That said, I also totally understand where (most) people are coming from, I question some people's bullyish tactics though, but hey, it's a free world & by coming on a forum like this I guess you have to expect it.


You clearly love your cats to death and have went out of your way to do everything possible to help these kittens - easy to respect that.


----------



## OrientalSlave

Marmitepepsi said:


> Most things I read on the internet say to not handle them for 2 weeks.


You've NOT read it here. The first two weeks are so crucial, as QOTN says regular (daily) weighing is the best way to be sure all is going well. There are various ways of marking kittens so you can tell them apart, if you have any nail varnish a spot on the claws on a foot does the trick.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

I'll weigh them today! Only need to put nail varnish on 2 of them so that's not so bad.
Are there any particular tips to avoid stressing out mum in the process?
My bet is on mr ginger being the biggest!

Ezzy has just had the smallest amount of food ever & keeps hiding in corners, so I think we might possibly have more kittens by the time the night is out!


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Just wanted to share this lovey pic!

Mummy Lula is breathing slower again & is purring away... All babies latched & v active! 

& im sure I heard a mini purr!


----------



## OrientalSlave

Marmitepepsi said:


> I'll weigh them today! Only need to put nail varnish on 2 of them so that's not so bad.
> Are there any particular tips to avoid stressing out mum in the process?
> My bet is on mr ginger being the biggest!
> 
> Ezzy has just had the smallest amount of food ever & keeps hiding in corners, so I think we might possibly have more kittens by the time the night is out!


Put it on all three, saves confusion if it rubs off one of them! Does mum get stressed if you hold a kitten? If it cries she will, I'd think about taking one at a time out of the room as the varnish needs to dry before it goes back. Hearing them crying does often upset them.


----------



## chillminx

Marmitepepsi said:


> Oh gosh, thank you so much @Smuge that has made me really emotional to read. Thank you for writing that, it means a lot.
> *
> It's very hard to take the criticism & personal attacks - That said, I also totally understand where (most) people are coming from, I question some people's bullyish tactics, but hey, it's a free world & by coming on a forum like this I guess you have to expect it. *
> 
> And thank you so much for all of your invaluable advice so far! I'm so pleased I found this forum & decided to keep my post up!


I agree with you - the amount of quality support and excellent advice you've received from forum members, particularly from the breeders, has been brilliant!! One couldn't have asked for more! 

Pheww! I've just re-read your whole thread from the start to remind myself how kind everyone has been. Apart from one slightly critical reply at the very beginning of your thread I can see nowhere there has been any criticism of you, or personal attacks on you. I am puzzled by your remark but can only assume it was not meant to be a reference to this forum but to another pet forum you belong to...

My sympathies to you if you have been given a hard time in other places, but I hope that it has been overshadowed by the masses of warm support, concern for your cats, and kindness you have received from members of this forum.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

I have pressed 'ignore' on the person who was quite confrontational, so maybe thats got rid of the comments on my thread...

The kindness & the support far far far outweighs that, I feel very lucky to have had all the lovely advice from you all ...

Going to weigh all the little kitties in a min...


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Marmitepepsi said:


> I have pressed 'ignore' on the person who was quite confrontational, so maybe thats got rid of the comments on my thread...
> 
> The kindness & the support far far far outweighs that, I feel very lucky to have had all the lovely advice from you all ...
> 
> Going to weigh all the little kitties in a min...


You're the only one who can't see the comments from anyone you have on ignore - everyone else still can.

I'm assuming the confrontational post was lorilu's. She doesn't mince her words. We've occasionally clashed in the past but she usually speaks sense and only has the welfare of cats at heart. Do not take it personally.

We do get soooo many posts on this forum by people whose cats are having kittens. Some (NOT ALL) of those people are frustrating to say the least. Some are rude and downright unpleasant to the people on here. You have been gracious, receptive and a joy to talk with.

Some deliberately allow their cats to become pregnant out of ignorance or pure selfishness, and when their misconceptions are corrected they become aggressive (we've been compared to Nazis more times than you'd care to think). 

Others have lied about their mistakes or decisions regarding their cats' pregnancies and blamed others... family members, or the vet (that's a common one).

Yes, some people on here can be barbed with their comments and some downright go straight for the jugular - rightly or wrongly - but it's only because we've seen it too many times and frustration sets in. Nobody makes such comments to be an ******* - everyone's concern is for the cats.

If you stick around after the kittens are weaned and gone off to new homes, you'll soon see what I mean! 

Anyway, thank you for accepting the excellent advice you've been given on this thread like a normal human being, and not throwing it back in people's faces. I wish you all the best with your girls and kittens and hope it all goes well when they are neutered.


----------



## elmthesofties

Lurker here (due to being in the camp of 'this shouldn't have happened' and I don't have anything constructive to add), but I do know that at least one of the more confrontational posts has been deleted. (not just edited, but gone) There may have genuinely been some more rude comments that aren't appearing anymore... I'm not convinced the remark was meant in a passive aggressive manner to remaining posters.
Pleased to hear the kittens are doing well so far.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

elmthesofties said:


> Lurker here (due to being in the camp of 'this shouldn't have happened' and I don't have anything constructive to add), but I do know that at least one of the more confrontational posts has been deleted. (not just edited, but gone) There may have genuinely been some more rude comments that aren't appearing anymore... I'm not convinced the remark was meant in a passive aggressive manner to remaining posters.
> Pleased to hear the kittens are doing well so far.


Oh, I don't remember one - was it definitely this thread and not one of the 5,098,345 others we've had in this subject in the last couple of weeks?


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Not Lorilu no ...
Anyway I think the said person has deleted their posts anyway!

So it's all forgotten...

On another note, I def think tonight is the night for Ezzy, feel a little more prepared than I was with Lula, but still will relax once all (or one even) is born! Then I'll relax once again when all the kitties are at 3-4 weeks!

Thanks again for all the support, it's made the process so much smoother for me to be able to care for them better!


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Ahhhh a little update on weights!

So they're all 2 days old & this is their first weigh! Done in order that they were born...the first 3 were born then she had an hours break then 2 more...

1 - 148g
2 - 140g (tortoishell)
3 - 156g (ginger......)
4 - 140g
5 - 151g

I think they all seem good weights! Does that sound about right?

Also only had a quick look & I'm no expert but I think that we have 4 girls & a boy.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Breeders will be better placed to advise, but I'd be happy with those weights at 2 days old.


----------



## chillminx

elmthesofties said:


> Lurker here (due to being in the camp of 'this shouldn't have happened' and I don't have anything constructive to add), but I do know that at least one of the more confrontational posts has been deleted. (not just edited, but gone) There may have genuinely been some more rude comments that aren't appearing anymore... I'm not convinced the remark was meant in a passive aggressive manner to remaining posters.
> Pleased to hear the kittens are doing well so far.


I am very surprised to hear you say that. I really do not remember any confrontational posts at all on this thread, (apart from lorilu's post I mentioned earlier) and I have an excellent memory (if I say so myself ). It was why when read Marmitepepsi's comment about personal attacks I went back and re-read the whole thread again just to check that I wasn't losing my marbles!! 

I had been following the developments in the thread all the way, and had been struck by how kind and supportive everyone was being to the OP. I was feeling a nice warm glow that our lovely members were being so caring and non-judgmental to the OP. So to read Marmitepepsi's comment was not only puzzling but a bit upsetting tbh.

Yes, it is possible if a post (or posts) were reported by a forum members as being abusive or flaming a Mod would have removed it/them if they agreed they were unacceptable.
But on this forum the Mods will post on the thread to advise us why they have felt it necessary to remove a post. They don't just censor us without saying why they have done so.

@Marmitepepsi - forum members can only *edit *their posts, they can't remove them. If a member were to remove the whole text of a post we would see their name and a blank space where the text was. Only a Mod can remove a post so we can no longer see it.

Anyway it is probably best if I leave this thread and don't comment further. Unhappily.


----------



## lymorelynn

Nice weights :Cat Your tortie is a girl so you can check against her to see if the others are the same or different.
There have been some very strong comments on a few threads recently but I don't think I've removed anything from this one


----------



## chillminx

Thank you @lymorelynn. Just as I thought.


----------



## lymorelynn

chillminx said:


> Thank you @lymorelynn. Just as I thought.


One of the other mods removed something at the very beginning


----------



## chillminx

Really ? Perhaps it was removed so quickly I never even saw it.


----------



## elmthesofties

Is it okay to ask if the deleted post contained a gif?
If I'm not getting mixed up, it wasn't too inflammatory compared to what is sometimes expected on threads of this topic. (although as mentioned, OP has been fantastic at dealing with things so that might be why) I had assumed that if that post was gone, then there would probably have been others that went, too.


----------



## lymorelynn

elmthesofties said:


> Is it okay to ask if the deleted post contained a gif?
> If I'm not getting mixed up, it wasn't too inflammatory compared to what is sometimes expected on threads of this topic. (although as mentioned, OP has been fantastic at dealing with things so that might be why) I had assumed that if that post was gone, then there would probably have been others that went, too.


I'm not sure what it was but it was removed at a mod's discretion, as are other posts.


----------



## SpringDance

Make sure your girls are spayed (and the boy) before they go to new homes - imagine if each of those girls had 5 kittens...

Good luck with the second birthing.


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## Marmitepepsi

Ezzy has taken a sudden interest in Lula's kittens, she also keeps jumping in Lula's box. I've never left Ezzy in there long enough to see how Lula is with it, but, shall I keep them apart? Or should I just let Ezzy in the box? Don't want to intrude on Lula's space, but then again, it might be nice them being together?

What have other people done who have had 2 mummies at the same time?

Thank you


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

I believe it's advised to keep them separate, since you don't want kittens to feed off each others' mum.


----------



## catcoonz

I'm happy with those kitten weights.

As far as i can see, all the posts are here except one which gave the persons location and a veterinary practise for me to phone.

I would keep the girls separate, i haven't mixed mums before for fear of kitten rejection.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

catcoonz said:


> I'm happy with those kitten weights.
> 
> As far as i can see, all the posts are here except one which gave the persons location and a veterinary practise for me to phone.
> 
> I would keep the girls separate, i haven't mixed mums before for fear of kitten rejection.


Did you have any luck with that practice CC?


----------



## spotty cats

I have girls who raise kittens together, they work together raising all the kittens.
Probably best for a novice to separate though.


----------



## catcoonz

Yes, Thank you CK.


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## Marmitepepsi

@catcoonz im on my own with the cats tonight so I'll text only if I get worried!

I can't get Ezzy out of Lula's box & I can't shut my bedroom door as Lula's in with me & I won't hear if Ezzy goes into labour!!!! Also Lula wouldnt be able to get to the litter box...she seems set on sitting in with Lula! 
Now I prob won't sleep through fear of her labouring in Lula's box!


----------



## catcoonz

Ok, I have never had mums in together, always kept them separate.

Is Lula ok with Ezzy being with her?


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## Marmitepepsi

She's purring so it wouldn't seem so?

Ezzy even started licking a kitten ...but lula didn't flinch


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## catcoonz

Ok, think we will need help/advise from others breeders on both mums sharing a nesting box as this is new to me and i don't want anything to go wrong for you.

@spotty cats, can you help in this situation please.


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## Marmitepepsi

Ezzy must def be due soon as she's just suddenly got all interested in the kittens & seems to want to look after them....

Oh dear...they're both out & on the landing now & just had a growl at each other! 

Oh golly, I hope this is just a blip until Ezzy gives birth!


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## catcoonz

I would be happier if Ezzy was in another room.

Last thing you need is Lula walking away from her kittens.


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## Marmitepepsi

Yes....
This is exactly what I was just prepping for!
Ezzy is going to be scratching at my door like crazy as they both sleep on my bed with me!

I'll leave the little tray on the landing & buy a second one (or 2) tomorrow as I'll probably need it with the kittens anyway!
Lula will meow if she wants the toilet & I'll just get up!
I won't be sleeping much anyway so hey ho...
Ezzys been sleeping in her own box for almost 10days & now last night & today decides not to!!!!!

Will bring Lula's food & water in my room too!

Ezzys got my daughters room to go to which I've got her original box in, another box & also some fleecy blankets around so I'm hoping she'll be ok. Ah feel bad that Ezzy will be locked out with impending labour! 

Although she's started eating loads again & seems all normal! (Apart from the sudden interest in the kittens!) so now I hope she waits till tomorrow!

Thank you!


----------



## QOTN

I have had two girls in the same room twice. It worked reasonably well for the first few weeks except the first time my QOTN was not happy when her mother had more kittens than she did and stole one. The other time everything went well until the kittens were much older and one of my other girls interfered and all the relationships broke down temporarily. It may be that Lula will tolerate Ezzy if they normally are friendly but they must have separate boxes in their own part of the room and they must be very closely monitored in case there is friction. It is definitely a second best option and if you can persuade Ezzy to move to 'her' room when she starts to have the kittens, that is the best idea. Can you leave Lula and sleep with Ezzy in your daughter's room?


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## Marmitepepsi

Thank you @QOTN

I thought that about sleeping with Ezzy too but I took the mattress out of my daughters room earlier (so that Ezzy didn't give birth on her bed & it's a box room so not much space)...

Hmmm I think I'll just set my alarm for every hour half & go check on Ezzy, might sound silly but might leave a light on for her!

Don't like the thought of her being out on her own :-(...

Oh Ezzy, why didn't you stay in your original box...


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## QOTN

I always slept with my girls before they gave birth. Depending on their day of delivery sometimes it was for three or four days before the kittens arrived. A great deal can happen in an hour and a half.


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## Marmitepepsi

Yes :-(...they normally both sleep with me most nights...

I really don't know what to do, as Lula is the one who loves being by my side all the time, so i think she wouldn't like being shut in the bedroom, Ezzys the independent one!


----------



## spotty cats

catcoonz said:


> Ok, think we will need help/advise from others breeders on both mums sharing a nesting box as this is new to me and i don't want anything to go wrong for you.
> 
> @spotty cats, can you help in this situation please.


With the newer post of growling I wouldn't risk it

Like QOTN I wouldn't feel comfortable just checking every 90 mins, and prefer having the girls in the same room as me.

You're going to need more than 2 litter trays in the coming weeks with two litters.


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## Marmitepepsi

I can't get the mattress back so I might just sleep on a few cushions & get up every hour half to check on lula instead!

I've sat with Ezzy the last hour & she's gone in both boxes for a nice lay down & a purr! So hopefully she's getting settled in here!

Zzzz


----------



## Azura

I've had girls together with their litters before. As long as they are friends I have never had an issue. However, I still like each mum to have a week or so after birthing to bond with her kittens by herself. You kind of have to figure it out on a cat by cat basis and just see what works best. Hope everything goes great with your second litter!


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Ezzy going into labour

Contractions just started


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Catcoonz is at work so i might ask questions here if need be!

On my own, Wish me luck!


----------



## QOTN

Good Luck.


----------



## kittih

Good luck.  I am no help. Just wanted to wish you well.


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## Marmitepepsi

First one coming


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Ezzy isn't settling anywhere, she wants to be in corner of daughters room

& she's growled a couple of times
Lula didn't do that at all

& she's hissing with contractions


----------



## QOTN

If she has the first kitten in the corner, just move it to the box at the first opportunity. Can you see what is happening? Some breeders say their girls make a lot of noise. They are all individuals. You were lucky with Lula and I was lucky with all my girls.


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## Marmitepepsi

I've got her in a box & shut the door,
its coming can see it's face


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Kitten out

But placenta still
In

She's chewing cord odd even though placenta still in

It's ok


It's out


----------



## QOTN

Can you hold the cord gently? It is better if she does not sever it before the placenta appears.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Kitten yelping
She's eaten placenta & now cleaning kitten!

Another ginger tabby


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Ezzy so different to Lula 

She's wandering around the room, cleaned kitten but keeps leaving it & wants to get out of the room.
She's making all throaty noises & does the odd hiss!

Lula knows something's going on & is scratching at my door...

Maybe that's one side done, she's sat in a different box now cleaning herself. 

Will the kitten get cold on it's own?


----------



## QOTN

Can you tuck the blankets round the kitten? Did she wash him dry? You could try to put him in the box with Ezzy if she is not contracting. I used to put mine on a heated pad during contractions. A hot water bottle wrapped in one of the blankets would do the trick.


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## OrientalSlave

The kitten needs keeping warm. Some cats won't settle until they have finished delivery. If you have a plastic drinks bottle fill it with warm - NOT hot - water and pop the kitten in a box with it. Don't use an electric heat pad unless it's designed for the purpose, it's also all too easy to get tiny kittens too hot.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

She's contracting again in other box 


Will do plastic bottle


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Gosh she's jumping all over place! So so different to Lula


Posted a pic of the water bottle in a tea towel & wrapped the other towel on her

Kitten has stopped crying out now


----------



## QOTN

Now would be a good opportunity to put in a clean blanket.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Second born!

I'm same box thank goodness! Same thing happened with her placenta being inside as she was chewing it. But all ok now!


----------



## lymorelynn

Hope she settles for you now.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

No more kittens yet! Last one born an hour ago so I'm thinking that it might only be 2, but you never know! Ezzy has settled now in the box with them too which is good.


----------



## carly87

My first timers from one particular line do this as they're terrified. They're frightened of the pain, and frightend because when they ask me to do something about it, I don't (I have a very close relationship with all of my cats, and when they indicate they want something, they normally get it, so when they don't it's upsetting for them). They're also incredibly embarrassed and upset about getting dirty/messy. With my last queen giving birth, she wet herself when the small contractions started. Because Mr Moonspun didn't know what she wanted when she kept asking him to help her get clean, she changed to running away from him and then hiding as she couldn't clean herself, and didn't want to show that she was messy. When I came in from work, she came straight out and started pacing like a mad thing until I worked out what was wrong. Compare this to another queen who literally lay on her back with her feet in the air on my lap to push her babies out, completely content with spreading mess everywhere as long as she was on me.

With the frantic queens, I tend to get on the floor and cuddle with them. I hold the front end gently and give all their favourite pets and scratches along with loads of reassurance. I try and work out what's making them uncomfortable. If it's mess, then I make a big thing of putting inco pads under them, then whipping them away at the first sign that the girl is getting upset with the amount of mess on them. If it's pain, then I let her know it's all right to vocalise it when it comes, by making lots of reassuring, comforting talk when she's shouting. This tends to result in very, very noisy deliveries (other breeders say that Persians are quite quiet, but all of mine have been screamers), but mummy feels Ok with puching, and doesn't struggle too much as long as she can have a good yell as she goes.

Watch your girl and try out different things to help her settle. Whatever she responds best to, keep doing. Often, I've found that the anxious ones will pop a couple out, then bet exhausted by all the adrenaline, feed the first few for an hour or so, then go again.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Ah @carly87 thabjs for info!

Both mine sound similar in the fact that they come to me for things! Lula the other day was meowing at me & pacing about & then I figured she might need a poo (first one since her birth) & she just wanted me to stand by the litter tray with her whilst she did it!

Not sure what Ezzy wants though! She growls when the kittens cry, hope that she settles into it all...I'm just going to try & sit next to her all day (easier said than done when Lula wants me to do the same but on another room)...
I've given Ezzy some food which she's eating (& growling at same time)... she's not normally a bit growler, only if she's got food she loves & Lula approaches or if she's playing with a toy & Lula goes towards the toy!


----------



## OrientalSlave

I think the pacing & growling can be because of pain, and would let them get on with it as walking around might well ease it, as it does for some humans.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Hoping she's done! She had the last kitten 3 hours ago! How time zooms, sat on the floor with her!
Zzzzz I'll sleep well tonight, slept on cushions last night to be in with her!

They both look good sizes & they're feeding, she's back in box with them!
Ones a ginger tabby & the other one is black but looks like grey stripes, so maybe a black tabby, not that I think I've ever seen a black tabby!


----------



## SpringDance

Has she fed them?


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Yes!


----------



## SpringDance

That's a lovely photo.

The box should be bigger, but I know you'll be onto that already.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

He he, yes. she's laying on the smaller edge...it's a long box but I was already thinking about doing my 'box adjustments' to make it bigger!


----------



## QOTN

Marmitepepsi said:


> Hoping she's done! She had the last kitten 3 hours ago! How time zooms, sat on the floor with her!
> Zzzzz I'll sleep well tonight, slept on cushions last night to be in with her!
> 
> They both look good sizes & they're feeding, she's back in box with them!
> Ones a ginger tabby & the other one is black but looks like grey stripes, so maybe a black tabby, not that I think I've ever seen a black tabby!


I expect you are both exhausted! All cats have tabby patterns and sometimes black kittens show theirs when they are very young. Unless you know the sire, it is possible he was just black since I believe your girls are tortie and white?


----------



## catcoonz

Lovely looking kittens and a very content Ezzy.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

@QOTN oh I didn't realise that about markings!

Yes my two are torties with white bellys & feet!

Think the black one is a boy, Gingers are generally boys aren't they?

She's being really good with them now she's settled! Don't think it helped the labour that she tried to nudge into my room when I was getting my supplies. Think she'd have liked to be in my room ideally!

Not sure what to do at night? They're used to sleeping with me & my door being open, I think it stresses both of them out for it to be shut. So, now she's had (hopefully done) her kittens, do you think it would be ok to keep doors open? I think she'd feel content knowing the doors open, but the only worry is that I'm probably going to sleep like a log after last night, & then I won't know if one of the cats jumps into another ones box!
Or shall I leave Ezzys door open just for tonight so that she can go on landing (they love laying there) & then shut Lula in with me? Or shall I try opening all doors now to see how everyone reacts!?


----------



## QOTN

Marmitepepsi said:


> @QOTN oh I didn't realise that about markings!
> 
> Yes my two are torties with white bellys & feet!
> 
> Think the black one is a boy, Gingers are generally boys aren't they?
> 
> She's being really good with them now she's settled! Don't think it helped the labour that she tried to nudge into my room when I was getting my supplies. Think she'd have liked to be in my room ideally!
> 
> Not sure what to do at night? They're used to sleeping with me & my door being open, I think it stresses both of them out for it to be shut. So, now she's had (hopefully done) her kittens, do you think it would be ok to keep doors open? I think she'd feel content knowing the doors open, but the only worry is that I'm probably going to sleep like a log after last night, & then I won't know if one of the cats jumps into another ones box!
> Or shall I leave Ezzys door open just for tonight so that she can go on landing (they love laying there) & then shut Lula in with me? Or shall I try opening all doors now to see how everyone reacts!?


If your gingers are not boys, then we would know the dad was also ginger. The reason people assume a ginger is a boy is because in random matings they usually are. You are probably not very interested but you have now encouraged me to spout colour genetics! The ginger (orange) gene is unusual in that it is carried on the female chromosome so only one is needed for a ginger boy but a girl needs two to be ginger. If she has only one orange gene, she is tortie like your girls.

I think you are right that Ezzy was unsettled knowing that Lula was in the 'usual' room and you were not keen for her to be there as well. You might find she settles with her babies now she knows what the situation is.

I know many would disagree but I would not confine them to one room against their will. Many girls are reluctant to leave the box for the first few days apart from using the tray. I have had to feed some of my girls in the box in the past.

Others want to have a wander inbetween feeds. If you want to experiment I think it better you allow them some freedom during the day when you are able to observe them and keep the doors shut at night. You don't want to get up tomorrow and find Ezzy has moved the babies to an unsuitable place.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Oh no I'm very interested in genetics!
Yes both Lula & Ezzy's gingers are boys, so must mean it comes from them? Lula has half a ginger face & it matches that!
So if the other kittens are black, black & white (also another tortoiseshell in Lula's litter) but what would the dad have been? Black & white I presume?

Ahhh jut watched Lula's ginger boy fall asleep after finishing his feed! They look SO huge in comparison! Only 3 days but makes all the difference!

Lula has settled nicely into it all! Also she wasn't too bad at being shut in my room last night! Didn't hear her scratch once, I guess she's preoccupied with those babies!

Here's a pic of Lula! Who still basically stays in the half of the box that was the original one even though I've made it bigger!! Well, she sticks her head into the other bit & that's enough to help give her more room!

I've finally just had breakfast at 2pm


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## QOTN

Welcome to the world of a cat slave. Of course your meals take second place to their needs.

The white spotting gene is dominant so the sire could have been plain black or black and white since your girls already have white. If you have a non-tortie girl in either litter you know that the sire could not have been ginger. All females from a ginger male would have to inherit his female chromosome and therefore the ginger gene with it.

I hate to speak too soon but it looks as though everything has gone as well as it possibly could. Fingers crossed things carry on the same.


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## Marmitepepsi

Ezzy has eaten tons & is settled in her box feeding the little cherubs. Even when I leave the room now, she's no longer waiting at the door meowing when I get back!

She's purring like crazy now too! Her purr is so funny, it's so deep & rattley! Lula's purr is more ladylike & soft! Sums up their perosnalites totally!

When I call them down the stairs, Ezzy is the one who runs like a boy, then she nudges you with big headbut type nudges & rattles away with her big purr! Then Lula very delicately trots down the stairs all light footed, nudges me all soft & lovingly & purrs a girly purr! They make me giggle, so I'm not at all surprised that Lula had 5kittens & Ezzy 2, sums them up, Lula's whole personality is more mumsy!
They get on really well cleaning each other & then have a little roll around & chase each other round the house!

I'm going to leave Ezzy in here with door shut till about 6/7pm to give her time with kitties & to make this her base! Then I'll open her door & keep an eye for 3/4 hours before bed!

Gosh, you lovely lot have been my saviour in all this!!!!
What an experience! And I have all the carnage to come yet...he he...good job I have wooden floors & a sofa im not that fussed on which has been battered by the children anyway!


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## Azura

Awe, they are lovely! Glad everything went well.


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## Marmitepepsi

Ah I've just weighed them all (Lula's) again & they've ALL put on 15g in 24hrs, tortoishell was 16g...I'm really pleased with that! Lula seems to have really settled into being a Mumma even more now, she's purring tons when feeding & shes -finally- spreading out in the box & seems to really enjoy feeding them! They're all lovely & v active! Mr Ginger is very vocal (as is Ezzy's ginger too!)

I opened the doors about 5pm to see how they'd be & so far so good. Lula went & had a sniff of Ezzy's babies (& Ezzy's bottom), I didn't let her get in the box though. 

Then Ezzys been in to see Lula's & has just observed - until just now, where she hopped in to have a sniff of Lula's Babies, I didnt really let her hang about to see what she would do (Lula wasn't in the box at the time so I didn't want her to come back & freak out!) but I shooed Ezzy out of the box & now she's gone back to her babies & Lula's back in with hers. Ezzy growls at her babies, but not Lula's!?!?! 

Also, anyone who's had 2 mums & litters together, this may sound silly, but they do know their own babies don't they? & how long does that stay? The whole time, or does it trail off, at say, 3 months or something?

I'm a little nervous about leaving the doors open tonight in case Ezzy jumps in Lula's box in the night! However if I shut the door then they'll (but especially Ezzy) will be scratching loads at the doors & getting stressed which I want to avoid. But then as it's the first night of Ezzy having her kittens (& to me she's not as much of a natural mother) but should I shut her in the room with them, or would I be making things worse? As in, she'll want to just 'escape' each time I open the door & it might cause anxiety of being in that room!

Ezzys in my room now with me & laying next to Lula's box! How long can the little ones be left without heat of Mumma? Or if Ezzy keeps coming in here, should I bring her box in or is that a no no?


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## carly87

She is growling at her babies as she is still very unsure. When mine do this, it is because they want to protect them, but they don't know what against. They just know that these things are very precious, and they want to warn everyone off. They growl especially when bubbas squeak. This is not meant in a vicious way at all. She knows it's not good when they squeak, but she doesn't know what to do about it or how to keep them safe, so she growls as a warning to any possible threats so that they know she's big and scary, and they should think twice. Can you pen your mums? I'd go out and buy a couple of big fabric crates. you can get these pretty cheaply at most pet shops. Then you could have both mums in together, but properly separated when you're asleep and can't observe. Then, during the day, you can open the pens up and let them be together. you'll probably find that, just as in the wild, they will move all the kittens into the same nest and co-parent them. As long as both girls are happy with this arrangement, I'd leave them to it. At the moment, Ezzy needs you more, so I'd stay with her until she's more sure of herself and is not worrying about everything so much.


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## Marmitepepsi

A little update-
Just weighed them all...Lula's have all put on 15g to 20g in 24hrs...ginger has put the most on- 20g, little chubbster!

Ezzy's, I just did their first weigh at 1.5 days old-
Ginger 151g
Black 147g

Last night I planned to sleep in Ezzy's room for her first night with the kitties but I completely zonked in my bed (her rooms right near me & I can see her door)...so I have no idea if Ezzy had a sneak into Lula's box or not! I woke up twice & each time both my girls were snuggled up to their babies so I was pleased with that. Felt so bad when woke at 1am with all lights on & in my own bed! Also by that time it was too late to set myslef up a bed in Ezzy's room. 

All seems good though & Ezzy has stopped growling at her babies, in fact she now reaches over to lay a paw on one of its not already next to her!

One bad thing, I've noticed some pesky fleas. So I've ordered advantage instead of the usual frontline (as I only defleaed them 2 weeks ago)...but I know they can make the tiny kittens anemic so I've finally managed to find some that they'll sell me without me having to take mum & babies all to the vet! I called so many! I said to them it's a catch 22 really as surely it's more risky for newborn kittens to have fleas around, yet to take them all & mum away from their nest, put them all in the basket, then the car & take them to the vet - just for flea spray- seemed a little OTT. There's no way I'd put my girls though that unless totally necessary! Poor things would have been so stressed out! It will be different in 3 weeks even, but 4 days! So I'm collecting that first thing in the morning...Phew!

One question! 
When yours cats have given birth do they suddenly tend to prefer their own personal litter tray? Since having her kittens Lula keeps meowing at me when she need the toilet, then I have to go & stand with her at the tray & she francially shoves all the litter around, as if trying to find a super clean spot (I'm changing it twice a day) & then finally goes! Just feel she's trying to tell me something! They've always shared one & never been an issue!


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## carly87

Absolutely, yes. My girls always have their own tray available when they kitten. Often they will use this as well as everyone else's tray, but they are secure that they have the option. She's also probably trying to communicate that she's worried about leaving her kittens long enough to go to the tray, or, if the tray's close, that she may be worried about going so close to the nest. Some of my girls want the tray in the room with the babies, right where they can still see the nest, and others want it in a completely different room. All of them will tell me when they need to go, and won't stop yelling until I sit down with the kittens to babysit while they go for a wee.


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## Marmitepepsi

Can I ask a question about fleas?

Now, I've got the spray today that can be used from 2 days old, however I feel a little nervous about using it & making them smell strange for the Mummies! At which point do fleas become dangerous in kittens? I've seen the odd one or two on them, & the odd one or two in the box. 

Is this me & my poor flea management? Or is it something you all see on your kittens sometimes?

I remember my friend getting a kitten at 12 weeks old that was riddled with fleas & the home that it came from was a tip & there def wouldn't have been any flea management!

Getting myself in a tizz about fleas! 

Keep brushing Mums everyday, got about 8 fleas off Ezzy & about 4 off Lula.

Ordered Advantage that should arrive tomorrow so I'll def do mums asap, just worried about the kitties!


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## catcoonz

Get a piece of cotton wool, do one spray on that and wipe under kittens tummies.

Don't do any more than that to the kittens, the fleas will die off.

Mum you need to give Advantage, this should be enough to get rid of all the fleas.

If you need to do the home, i would use Skoosh, as this is safe and has no smell to it.

Thats how i do mine and never had a problem since.


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## Marmitepepsi

Ah ok great, that makes me feel a lot more comfortable than what the vets said! They said to spray a couple of sprays on my hands (gloves on) then wipe it all over the kittens the opposite way that the hair grows & also not to forget the head as people have said that the fleas congregate on the head of you don't do all of them! However my gut feeing with that was that it would freak mums (&kittens) a bit...& make the kittens smell weird to Mummas! 

I'm happy putting advantage on Lu & Ez & I might get some of the house spray too! Also changing their bedding daily & combing mums & have gently combed kitties a couple of times!

Pesky fleas!


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## OrientalSlave

You must have eggs, larvae & pupae in the house to keep finding fleas so the house definitely needs treating. You need to treat everywhere cats have ever been and remember the larvae crawl into dark corners. Wash the bedding on hot, or discard it. Btw i feel you are putting a bit too much emphasis on how they smell.


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## Marmitepepsi

Lula has just been biting one of the kittens?
Is this normal?
They're a week old tomorrow


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## carly87

She's probably trying to move it. It's around this time that they want to leave the nesting box. Here's where I'd change all your boxes and bedding completely, and make a big song and dance about doing it with mum. Then settle them in a clean box with clean bedding and she'll likely settle right down again.


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## Marmitepepsi

It was under the kittens neck though & whilst she was feeding all the others? I thought maybe she was practicing as was thinking it must be approaching neck carrying time, but It was more like she was trying to tell the kitten off for wandering off & not playing ball & feeding like the rest of them.
Think I'm just ultra worried about any kittens being rejected or even killed as I know mum cats seems to sense when they're poorly.
When you say change all boxes & bedding etc, why is that? She's been wanting to go out these past 2 days too (which she obv won't be doing till she's spayed!)
Just hope she's not getting fed up of being in! She does have breaks from the kittens & overall just before we saw her biting that one (seemed hard!) we were saying how she's really embracing it all & lays out all tall & purrs away when feeding!


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## claire8234

Wow @Marmitepepsi what a rollercoaster!

I cant offer any advice as I have never had newborn kittens before (just fostered older ones).

What a fantastic job you have done looking after mums and babies and what amazing forum members we have on here

X


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## Marmitepepsi

Ah thank you @claire8234 ....
Yes certainly a rollercoaster! In one way I love it, in another I'm a nervous wreck!
This forum & its members have been priceless, such a network of support & knowledge! So glad that I stumbled across it...


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## Marmitepepsi

So we're on day 6 & this is the weights from fist weigh at 2 days to what they are now- (in order of being born)
1 - 148g. Now 216g (+68g)
2 - 140g. Now 198g (+58g)
3 - 156g. Now 222g (+66g)
4 - 140g. Now 188g (+48g)
5 - 151g. Now 206g (+55g)

Today has been the lowest weight gain for 3 of them 7g ,8g & 8g...I think they're the 3 girls & I think number 1 & 3 are boys. Is there a pattern at boys weighing more than girls?

Also when should I worry about weight gain? The one that's only put on 7g (number 4) only put on 11g yesterday too...


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## catcoonz

I'm happy with those weights.

Just make sure each kitten does have a weight gain, if the weights start to drop, that kitten may be getting pushed out more by the bigger kittens.

Relax, things are going well.


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## carly87

I'd watch number 4 a bit, as although she's gaining, she's gained less than the others. Maybe help her keep her place at the milk bar by putting your hands around her when she suckles, so that the others can still feed, but if they try and pull her off, all they'll do is pull at your fingers rather than her. It's amazing what wonders a really solid feed or two works in terms of them being able to fight for and keep their place against the bigger kittens.

Around about the 7-10 day mark, kittens are robust enough to be moved by mum. The birthing place will have strong scents, blood, fluids, you name it, so can draw predatore. Mum instinctually wants to get away from that place and move the kittens somewhere clean and scent free. As you've used cardboard, the smell will have soaked right into that, so if she shows signs of trying to carry the kittens, then this is what I would do. I do this with my own mums, and go through a big dram of taking out the dirty bedding, putting in clean bedding, then getting mum to come with me while I take the nasty, dirty bedding way out of the room and get rid of it. Once she's seen this, she's happy to settle back into her original nesting space, and I don't have to worry about kittens being moved somewhere silly.


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## Marmitepepsi

All kitties putting on a nice amount of weight! Number 4 has caught up again!

Can I ask all your advice?
Ezzy keeps jumping in Lula's box today & I caught her laying in there with Lula & feeding 2 of Lula's kittens! Also Ezzy has been cleaning Lula's kittens bottoms etc.

Should I stop this or just let them do their thing? I haven't really stopped for too long to see how Lula is with it!

Should I watch from a distance or is it defienely a no no for now? If it's a no no then I'll probably have to shut Ezzy in her room when I'm not upstairs supervising!


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## QOTN

I don't think it will do any harm as long as Lula is not upset. I would be concerned if Ezzy's kittens were being neglected but girls often find a singleton or a small litter rather boring. Definitely keep watch in case the relationship deteriorates.


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## Marmitepepsi

Yes, that's exactly what came to my mind - that Ezzy would be happier if she had more kittens to care for & that having 2 isn't challenging enough! 
Lula is so skinny, yet Ezzy is nice normal weight! I have constant food there for them both & Lula's always eating but she obv gives most of it to the kitties!

Yeah, I think I'll just keep a close eye on the dynamics. Ezzy can be a bit bullish, she does it with food, so now Lula just stands back & let's Ezzy go first. Just don't want Lula feeling on the back foot with her babies!

I think Ezzy would be happier in Lula's box!- not sure Lula would be, but I think she'd let her. Ezzy is def the more dominant personality!

I think Ezzy wanted to birth in Lula's box too...

Hmmmmm I'll keep a close eye!


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## leashedForLife

.
Maybe this sounds overanxious, but personally, i wouldn't leave both mums & all kits together unsupervised for very long. // Especially if i was leaving the house, even for 20-mins, i'd want 1 adult cat & only her own kits per room.
Things can change suddenly, especially while the kits are so very young & vulnerable - if the mums got into a spat & a kitten was chilled or laid upon, or worst of all, killed, it could be all over by the time U got back.
.
Our Meezers were dam & daughter & got along well all their long lives; we had to mark every kitten to keep straight who was whose kid, but we still didn't leave both mums in one room, nor all kits in one room even in *2 nests*, until the younger litter of the two reached 4-WO or so.
They often gave birth within days of one another, a few times the litters were 10 to 12-days apart, but the babies were always sufficiently similar in age that they all played, explored, & got well acquainted before they left for the buyer's homes @ 12-WO.
.
Am i being paranoid? - i don't know. I've just seen queens go sour on one another in the past, & even if they make up after, for a few hours or a few days, they can be really evil to each other AND any infants. 
I'd hate to see this go pear-shaped now, after such incredible good luck with the births & the mums.
.
.
.


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## catcoonz

I am unable to offer any help regarding mixing queens with such young kittens.
Mine are all kept separate, will admit, i don't like the sound of it though and would prefer them separate.


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## lorilu

I thought I remember a post in this thread from one of our resident breeders who has had a couple of queens raise their litters together?

I wonder why, since it seems to be going fine, why those of you speaking against letting it happen, say so?

Back when I was a little girl, well I was about 11, we had two litter mates who had kittens at the same time (this is going back to the early 70s when spaying was less automatic, I do actually remember the spaying of both cats in fact, I went with my mother both to drop them off and to pick them up). They both had three or four kittens each and it seems we never knew which kittens were which mother's.

Now I realize childhood memory can be faulty, but I come by my love of cats by exposure and genetically and I remember, along with my mother, paying a lot of attention to those litters and mothers, and I am sure this is an accurate memory. (The other kids in the house, my brother and 3 sisters, weren't that interested, not that I remember anyway)

Not saying either way what I think OP should do. Just curious why it is recommended against so strongly.


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## kittih

I don't think it's the not allowing them not to mix is the issue as such it's the issue of allowing them to mix and not keeping a really close eye on them for the whole time they do is the worry.

From the OP's posts:



> Ezzy keeps jumping in Lula's box today & I caught her laying in there with Lula & feeding 2 of Lula's kittens! Also Ezzy has been cleaning Lula's kittens bottoms etc.


and



> I think Ezzy would be happier in Lula's box!- not sure Lula would be, but I think she'd let her. Ezzy is def the more dominant personality!


there is a risk that Ezzy might get so comfortable nursing Lula's kittens that hers are forgotten and left to chill and the Lula may be either pushed away from the kittens and lose her bond or perhaps het frustrated or annoyed and both girls fight.

I am in no way an expert (only raised a litter of feral kittens but I would recommend trying to encourage each mum to stay with their own kittens for the next 2 or 3 weeks to maintain their respective bonds and then let them freely mix when the kittens are less vulnerable. If any of the kits are rejected at this stage then bottle feeding is going to be hard work.

Maybe it would work fine but it's a risk at this stage.

Has Lula shown any interest in Ezzy's kittens ?


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## Marmitepepsi

No she hasn't! Lula leaves Ezzy's alone, so my fear is that Lula will be pushed out.
If she did then I think I might feel happier as then they'd more likely mix
I shut Ezzy out the room last night & I think I'll do the same if we go out too.


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## kittih

Yes that would be my concern to that Lula would be pushed out. Ezzy could be supermum and look after them all but at this stage that wouldn't be fair on Lula if she is a good mum without interference. It also wouldn't be fair on all the kittens as they would have more of a fight at the milk bar.


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## carly87

Radical suggestion here, but if Ezzy has too few to keep her interested, and Lula has so many that she's getting skinny, why not take a couple of hers and give them to Ezzy? They're similar enough in age that it would work, Ezzy might be happier, Lula would have less to feed and be able to fatten up again, and kittens won't care as long as they have a mummy who loves them and feeds them! If Lula was happy with Ezzy in her box then I'd say just pile the kittens in together and let them get on with it, but as she's not, I agree that it's important to ensure that Ezzy, as some mums will, doesn't claim all the kittens as hers.


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## Marmitepepsi

I really don't know what to do about the Ezzy situation?

It's really stressful keeping them in separate rooms, as soon as I open the door to go in/out, Ezzy darts into the room.

Ezzy I now think is getting jealous of the fact that Lula's in my room with all the kittens & I think it's making her worse, & now she's attacking Lula sometimes as though she's taking it out on her, she's been biting her back legs & lulas neck.

Also Lula's stools are really loose, not sure if it's the food/stress or just a couple of days of a runny bottom. She's so thin compared to Ezzy. Lula's ears sometimes feel a bit warm? Does that mean she's not 100%? She's eating well, drinking & purring still. She doesn't seem in pain or anything.

Then I just wonder if Ezzys trying to help out as she can sense Lula's finding it a hard task (when I say that I mainly mean because she's skinny)...

But I'm half tempted to just put them all in a huge box with all 7 kittens (in my room in the same spot) and just see how it goes?

I just think Ezzy is getting jealous of Lula, one- because she's more kittens, two- because she's in my room, & three- because we keep telling Ezzy off for going in the box & keep shooing her out of the room. So it's like she has a little dig at Lula when she's feeing left out!

I really don't know what to do!

I've been trying to leave the bedroom doors open in the day so neither cat feels stuck in. But I'm constantly up & down the stairs & shooing Ezzy out of the box! Yesterday I caught them both in together & Lula didn't seem too fussed.

I feel really anxious about it.


All kittens are putting on a lovely amount of weight & have all opened their eyes ...


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## SusieRainbow

I have no experience in breeding but your solution sounds so simple and staightforward, much less stress for all concerned. I know there are mixed opinions on this but they are your cats , your decisions.
As long as you can identify the kittens to their birth mums I can't see a problem to be honest , I know relatives of mine have allowed shared parenting.


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## lorilu

Marmitepepsi said:


> But I'm half tempted to just put them all in a huge box with all 7 kittens (in my room in the same spot) and just see how it goes?


Try it. Can you combine the existing boxes? Just Move Ezzy's box in next to Lula? Or would a fresh new box be better?


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## Marmitepepsi

Yes, thank you, I think I have to try it, I'm at home today & most of Tomo so it'll be good to keep an eye...
I think I'll adapt all the existing boxes for now to see how it goes with still keeping their original boxes that they've been used to so it's more familiar. 
Also Ezzys 2 kittens are always huddled together so it might be nice for them to be in the pack...

This feels the right thing to do, can only try it!


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## Marmitepepsi

Well, 
They've gone straight in & are like this-
Ezzy feeding a few, Lula cleaning their bottoms, one feeding off Lula.

Wish us luck!


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## SusieRainbow

Marmitepepsi said:


> Well,
> They've gone straight in & are like this-
> Ezzy feeding a few, Lula cleaning their bottoms, one feeding off Lula.
> 
> Wish us luck!


I do wish you luck ! They look very happy with the arrangement, sometimes you have to trust your instinct.


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## Marmitepepsi

Yes, my instinct is def to give it a good try!
My main worry is Ezzy dominating it all & Lula being pushed out, but Lula is also good at just letting Ezzy get on with it without being a walk over. She just 'rises above it'...we'll see!

I'm happy for them all feeding off Ezzy at the minute as Lula might get some respite & get some weight back on again!


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## SusieRainbow

Marmitepepsi said:


> Yes, my instinct is def to give it a good try!
> My main worry is Ezzy dominating it all & Lula being pushed out, but Lula is also good at just letting Ezzy get on with it without being a walk over. She just 'rises above it'...we'll see!
> 
> I'm happy for them all feeding off Ezzy at the minute as Lula might get some respite & get some weight back on again!


I would definitely make sure she feeds some regularly or she'll lose her milk.


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## lymorelynn

I've never had two litters close together but do know several breeders who are happy to let their queens share litters like this. The main problem, apart from one queen taking over, is that if there is any illness is it is likely to passed to both litters. If your girls are happy with the situation let them carry on sharing but try to make sure that both of them feeding the kittens.


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## Marmitepepsi

After a couple of hours of Lula not in the box (& me starting to worry)

They're both in & both feeding & grooming babies, and each other...gosh I hope this works for them all. Finger crossed


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## Paddypaws

Look at those porky little gingers!!!!! squeeeeee


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## Azura

If both of your girls get along I would try having them share litters. Still give them their own boxes, but make them big enough that they can pool litters if they choose.

For Lula you could try adding a little egg yolk to some canned food and also some nutrical if you can get some. It really helps with keeping weight on the mums.


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## Azura

Just saw your post! Glad it's working for them to be together!


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## Marmitepepsi

Lula's hardly been in the box, & one of the times Ezzy bit Lula's back leg...gently, but I'm still not happy about it. Ezzy's taking over quite a bit as she's been in the box constantly since 12pm...Lula's sleeping on floor next to box or on my bed next to it ,but she did that often anyway so I'm not too concerned about that part. I'm going to get in bed early myself tonight so that I can observe. As long as Lula's in there feeding & cleaning without Ezzy bulldozing her away then I'll be happy. Lula seems happy enough & is purring when I talk to her or stroke her, so she's not seeming too phased.
Early days yet, & when Ezzy went for Lula's leg I thought I'd have to seperate again, but I'll give it a good 24hours...will set my alarm through night too so that I can have a look at what's going on!


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## Marmitepepsi

Well it seems to be going ok actually. I woke up a few times in the night & all was well with both Ezzy & Lula in the box with kittens feeding off both of them. It's been a day & a half & Lula already looks less thin & she has gradually gone in the box more after Ezzy took over the whole situation for a good few hours initially yesterday! Today has been more balanced.
I'm still not 100% happy as Ezzy has jumped in the box & bit Lula's neck on about 3 occasions, luckily I've been here all times but I do slightly worry about when I'm not here. On the whole, about 90% of the time they're fine & it's only when Ezzy seems to be wanting to burn off some energy that she's had a little spat at Lula & then proceeded to run around the house like crazy. I'm still thinking that if I go out then maybe I should put Ezzy in the original room, but give her 2 of Lula's bigger kittens to keep her occupied (so she has 4) & keep Lula from getting too skinny again (keep her with 3).
I just mainly wonder if the little odd spat that Ezzy has done to Lula is just a little dig that won't go any further or weather it's a warning sign for me to act upon.
It's tricky as both my girls have always had the run of the house, so locking them in/out isn't natural for them & I don't want to put either cat under unnecessary stress.
Lula's stools are still quite runny, wondering wether I need to take her to the vet or if it's just something that some get after labour & when eating loads & feeding kittens? Ezzys are fine. Lula sometimes seems like she's not feeing great & then others she seems completely normal. Are warm ears a sign of her being poorly? Also sometimes her breathing looks rapid...isn't it a bit far after birth now (12days) for afterpains & for her uterus to still be contracting back to normal size? Sometimes I feel worried about Lula & then the next she seems fine. Makes my tummy flip when I think she could be unwell. 

All kittens are putting on a nice amount of weight & all eyes are opened & one particularly is starting to purr...I still can't 100% tell if they're girls or boys, but the Gingers are boys & I 'think' all the others are girls, obviously the tortoishell is.

Also, is it good to handle them from now on to get them accustomed to humans or is it still a bit much to be handling them too often? I currently have a little cuddle of them all once a day when I weigh them, and also once more at some point. Also I stroke them when they're in the box too! They're all lovely!

The dark pic is from last night, all nice & peacful & cosy in there!

The other pic was a nice symmetry pic from earlier!


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## SusieRainbow

Marmitepepsi said:


> Well it seems to be going ok actually. I woke up a few times in the night & all was well with both Ezzy & Lula in the box with kittens feeding off both of them. It's been a day & a half & Lula already looks less thin & she has gradually gone in the box more after Ezzy took over the whole situation for a good few hours initially yesterday! Today has been more balanced.
> I'm still not 100% happy as Ezzy has jumped in the box & bit Lula's neck on about 3 occasions, luckily I've been here all times but I do slightly worry about when I'm not here. On the whole, about 90% of the time they're fine & it's only when Ezzy seems to be wanting to burn off some energy that she's had a little spat at Lula & then proceeded to run around the house like crazy. I'm still thinking that if I go out then maybe I should put Ezzy in the original room, but give her 2 of Lula's bigger kittens to keep her occupied (so she has 4) & keep Lula from getting too skinny again (keep her with 3).
> I just mainly wonder if the little odd spat that Ezzy has done to Lula is just a little dig that won't go any further or weather it's a warning sign for me to act upon.
> It's tricky as both my girls have always had the run of the house, so locking them in/out isn't natural for them & I don't want to put either cat under unnecessary stress.
> Lula's stools are still quite runny, wondering wether I need to take her to the vet or if it's just something that some get after labour & when eating loads & feeding kittens? Ezzys are fine. Lula sometimes seems like she's not feeing great & then others she seems completely normal. Are warm ears a sign of her being poorly?
> 
> All kittens are putting on a nice amount of weight & all eyes are opened & one particularly is starting to purr...I still can't 100% tell if they're girls or boys, but the Gingers are boys & I 'think' all the others are girls, obviously the tortoishell is.
> 
> Also, is it good to handle them from now on to get them accustomed to humans or is it still a bit much to be handling them too often? I currently have a little cuddle of them all once a day when I weigh them, and also once more at some point. Also I stroke them when they're in the box too! They're all lovely!
> 
> The dark pic is from last night, all nice & peacful & cosy in there!
> 
> The other pic was a nice symmetry pic from earlier!


No advice I'm afraid but they are gorgeous ! I love the ginger ones , used to have a beautiful ginger girl.


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## lorilu

Thanks for the terrific update. I'd be inclined to take Lula to the vet. I'm not a kitten expert but with Ezzy to man the fort -er-nursery? I know the worry would be if she'd let Lula back in after coming home smelling like vet.

Maybe Lula just needs another day or two of sharing the burden to recover but...well hopefully one of the breeders will pop in soon. It's great that she's put on some weight, but she could get dehydrated from that loose stool.

@catcoonz

PS I'm sure I've read in this forum many times that the kittens should be handled regularly right from the start.


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## Marmitepepsi

Oh good...I'll get cuddling even more then ...the girls are desperate to cuddle them too but I've kept them mainly away as didn't want to freak out Lu & Ez.

Yes, don't want to take Lu to vet unnecessarily for many reasons, from her being freaked out, her being away from the brood for a while & her coming back smelling of vets! Equally I don't want to overlook something if she needs a vets help..


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## leashedForLife

QUOTE, Marmitepepsi:

Yes, don't want to take Lu to vet *unnecessarily* for many reasons, from her being freaked out, her *being away from the brood* for a while & her coming back smelling of vets! 
Equally I don't want to overlook something if she needs a vets help..

/QUOTE
.
.
Young pups & kits don't get separated from their dams for vet trips - if one goes, all go, Mum & the whole litter.
Since the kits are in a box & Mum's in a carrier, nobody's going to be unnecessarily EXPOSED to evil germs. 
.
Taking a rectal temp is extremely simple & can be very helpful - if she's running a temp along with those sloppy stools, off she goes to the vet, definitely. 
.
.
.


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## catcoonz

Kittens look great and well done for achieving what i have failed to do over many years, putting mum's together.
I'm going to give it a go myself with my 2 litters.

Mum's can get softer stools, due to cleaning kittens. Don't forget she is eating their toilet when she stimulates them to go.
You can give a probiotic to help firm her up, or give some Libby's Natural Pumpkin, which should be in Tesco.

If neither of these work, she could have a slight infection going on, but we can try these things first as this is what the vets will use to eliminate.

Do keep a watch on her toilet though over the next few days.

Lula is wormed up to date isn't she? It could be roundworm if she isn't.


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## Marmitepepsi

Yes I wormed them with Panacol about a week or so before they had the kitties, so over 3 weeks ago now as it was a Sunday. Wondering if she got enough of the paste & if I should do it again?

The natural pumpkin is a tinned item in normal food isle? A pumpkin paste? 

On a plus note all the fleas are gone, there weren't many but I don't have a clue where they came from, I guess there must have been eggs in the house.

Lula seems more off colour in the evenings & breaths quite fast & sometimes sounds a little noisy with the breaths. 
But, she's still purring, eating & drinking, also she's feeding & grooming kittens still too.


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## catcoonz

If Lula has noisy breathing, she needs a vet check.


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## SpringDance

I would at least phone the vet to see what they think


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## Marmitepepsi

Ok, would you wait to see if the noises happen again or take her along today!?

Also do I just take her & leave the kittens here with Ezzy or do I take a few kittens too?

She's purring away feeding 5 of the kittens in the box with Ezzy now. But last night she was sat on my bed breathing rapidly & the odd grunty noise with the out breath. It didn't last long but I'm still a little worried about her


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## SpringDance

I would:

Phone the vet and ask that.

Take all the kittens with her.

She'll smell of vet, so look up how to reintroduce them- you don't want to cause any problems when she comes back.


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## Marmitepepsi

I think Ezzy might freak out if I take all the kittens...maybe I should just take Lula's 5...

I'm calling vet now so I'll ask


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## SpringDance

Marmitepepsi said:


> I think Ezzy might freak out if I take all the kittens...maybe I should just take Lula's 5...
> 
> I'm calling vet now so I'll ask


Yes, sorry, I meant all of her own - not Ezzy's!


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## Marmitepepsi

Right! I'm taking her today at 3:30! Typically she's all full of beans, but I'll feel much happier with having had her seen by a vet!
They said it didn't sound urgent so I could bring her tomorrow but I'd rather take her now!
I'll bring all her 5 kittens & have their blanket in there so hopefully they'll not smell too awful when back! Just hope we don't have to wait too long or that there's not any big scary dogs in there!
I'll google tips about reintroduction as don't want Ezzy going for them all when back but any tips from you all would be great.
Thank you,
Will let you know how she gets on!


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## SusieRainbow

How about taking 3 of Lula's kittens , leaving Ezzie with 4 to look after ? Less re-introductions and keep Ezzy busy while you're gone .


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## Marmitepepsi

Would the vet not want to check all of Lula's kittens do you think? Or do I save that for a different appointment?


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## SusieRainbow

I'm not sure , it could probably wait for another appointment unless you have concerns. I'm just thinking of making it easier for you and less disruption for the group dynamics.


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## QOTN

Sorry to express a different opinion but I would not take kittens unless I was concerned about their health. In view of the sharing of litters I would move Lula's away from Ezzy until Lula is back home


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## SusieRainbow

QOTN said:


> Sorry to express a different opinion but I would not take kittens unless I was concerned about their health. In view of the sharing of litters I would move Lula's away from Ezzy until Lula is back home


That's OK, I bow to your experience.


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## QOTN

SusieRainbow said:


> That's OK, I bow to your experience.


It is what I always did but others will disagree.


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## Marmitepepsi

Hmmmmm,
I don't know what to do now! My partner thinks not to take kittens but part of me feels I should keep Lula's with her at least as don't want Ezzy then shoving Lula away from her own kittens when she's back & smelling different to all of them!


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## lymorelynn

I would rather leave the kittens at home too.
When you bring Lula back sprinkle a little talc into her and Ezzy's fur and rub it in so that they both have a similar scent.


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## catcoonz

Just take Lula to the vet, kittens will be fine at home.


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## lorilu

Wipe the carrier out with a bit of vanilla. Put a drop of vanilla on Ezzy's chin and tail. This will help everyone have similar smells when you bring them home.


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## Marmitepepsi

Just got Lula & left kitties at home.
Good timing for the vanilla advice, just managed to do it before I left! Lula's wee'd in the basket & it's now on my mums car seat (typically it overflowed the plastic bag that I put under) Oops...gosh it's going to stink & I need to try & clean it before she has the car back ...
They're running late at vets so im back outside so that we don't smell as much.
Poor baby's really nervous!

I put the blanket from the nesting box in her basket with her & gave Ezzy a fresh one, also the basket is always on the Landing so that'll smell of home & ive bought another blanket to drape over the top...
She's calmed down a bit now we're outside & the cars not moving.


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## Marmitepepsi

We're home!

Ah the vet is so lovely, anyway, Lula has a slight temp of 39.1, she said that her heart & lungs sounded fine & she had a good feel of Lula & her tummy etc. She said I could give antibiotics to fight any infection but I said if possible I'd rather hold off as to not pass it through to kittens & also don't want her having them uneccisarily, I always hold off with antibiotics with my children so would like to do the same with my kitties, she said yes completely fine to do that seeing as it's only a small temp & I have the antibiotic prescription at the vets if I need to go & get it & she doesn't improve. Breathing was very fast at vets too but then again Lula was really stressed out bless her...as soon as we got home she got out of the basket & was sick :-(...she seems a lot better now though & she's having a good clean of herself...

Lula is all booked in for her Spey in 3 weeks time & then Ezzy will have hers a week after!

Is there anything I can give Lula to help her with this slight temp/runny bottom/infection?

Pumpkin paste & is there anything else you all recommend?

Thank you so much for all of your knowledgable advice, it's enabled me to look after my girlies & their babies as best as I can.

I'll attach a piccie of all individual kittens in a bit once I've weighed them...

X


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## moggie14

I hope all went well at the vets and Lula is OK. Fingers crossed nothing serious xx


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## catcoonz

Thank you for being responsible and seeking veterinary advise, you wouldn't believe how many ignore this.

Fast heart rate would be stress at the vets, mine are the same.

Ok, so Synulox is safe for mum's and kittens, but i respect your decision not to go with antibiotics, although do keep a watch to see if you will need them.

Chicken is a bland food if you wanted to try it. I like the Libby's natural 100% pumpkin, which is with the tinned fruit.


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## lymorelynn

Plain chicken or white fish, poached and fed with some of the broth may help.
Squash is okay instead of pumpkin if you can't find any - I buy the Libby's tinned pumpkin from Waitrose in the fruit and pie filling section. Make sure it has no added sugar - the Libby's one doesn't but some brands do


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## OrientalSlave

Puppy pads are much better than plastic bags under carriers, B&M seem to be the cheapest place to buy them.


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## lorilu

How did the return go? No fussing over vet smells? Right back to one big happy family?

Probiotics will help with loose stools but I don't know if they can be given to nursing mothers.


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## Marmitepepsi

Return was fine...
I did the vanilla just before I went & did a tiny bit of talc when I got back with her! Also I put my own blanket on the vets table & I was only in the waiting room for about 2 mins as I sat out by car for about half an hour as they were running late...
Also the fact Lula did a wee on the blanket I thought maybe helped as she'd have smelt of wee :Shy...
Ezzy was licking Lula when she got back & Lula herself had a good clean...
So all was good Thank you ...
Think it'll be more tricky when she goes in to be spayed in 3 weeks though, but I guess as the kittens won't be quite as dependant then it might be a little easier maybe?

Lula's breathing is a lot slower this eve so that's good. It's been an intermittent thing over past couple of days so I'll be happier once she's had a few days of normal breathing.

All kitties have put on a nice amount of weight! I didn't mange any piccies but I'll put some up as soon as I've got some good ones!


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## Gallifreyangirl

Happy to hear all well with Ezzy and breathing. Sounds like you are a responsible owner and doing a fantastic job with both girls.


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## Marmitepepsi

Afternoon everyone,
Need a little advice RE one of the kittens eye! Gingers eye was fine yesterday about 2:30, then I noticed at about 5pm that it was stuck shut. I put cooled boiled water on it but it was quite thick & I didn't want to prod about on his eye. Anyway it's still like it today & ive just tried to wipe it again but I don't want to prod about or even pick it, it looks a little red so I think it must be that one of the others little claws maybe scratched him, seeing as it was so quickly changed from normal to stuck! All the other kittens eyes are fine! What do you all advise? I'll try and add a pic!

Lula's stools are normal now so that's good!!!! She's still sometimes breathing slightly fast but she seems happy in herself. If still intermittently breathing fast by time weekend is over then I'll take her back to vet or go & get the antibiotics. As long as she's sprightly, eating, drinking & purring then I'll just keep close eye on breathing.

Actually as I've just gone to take pic, his eye has opened a bit! (So my tepid water must have helped loosen it) as you can see its still a bit wet in the pic!


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## catcoonz

Kitten needs eye cream from the vet.
It happens as mum's clean bottoms and faces which transfers bacteria.


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## QOTN

Breeder's term 'bum eye!' Please try to keep the eye bathed open because if it remains shut that is serious. Once you have the medication it should improve almost immediately.


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## Marmitepepsi

So, five days on & the shared parenting is going really well! They've settled into it really nicely & they're harmoniously in the box together...even licking/grooming each other in there too...here's a couple of pics...


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## Marmitepepsi

Some piccies as promised-
I've put the number on them in the order that they were born! The first 5 are 17days old & the last 2 are 14days old!

Their weights are-
1- 397g
2- 350g
3- 389g
4- 349g
5- 357g
6- 359g 
7- 348g

Number 6 ginger is the one who's got the sticky eye, I'd not long wiped it before the pic & it seems to be improving! I didn't get back in time on Friday to call vet for eye cream, but would you say I still need it? It's not as red as it was on Friday & he can open it (once I've wiped it)...


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## catcoonz

Eye looks ok as long as there is no green/yellow gunge.


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## lorilu

Marmitepepsi said:


> Some piccies as promised-
> I've put the number on them in the order that they were born! The first 5 are 17days old & the last 2 are 14days old!
> 
> Their weights are-
> 1- 397g
> 2- 350g
> 3- 389g
> 4- 349g
> 5- 357g
> 6- 359g
> 7- 348g
> 
> Number 6 ginger is the one who's got the sticky eye, I'd not long wiped it before the pic & it seems to be improving! I didn't get back in time on Friday to call vet for eye cream, but would you say I still need it? It's not as red as it was on Friday & he can open it (once I've wiped it)...


Terrific job with the pictures. You can see little individualisms in their tiny personalities even now.


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## Marmitepepsi

Ah thank you... I had it on photo burst & kept them on the cover that they're used to!
Yes it's amazing how just in the past 2 days or so that their personalities are emerging already...they're all putting on good weights too so, so far so good!


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## catcoonz

Beautiful kittens and a very good size.


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## Michebe

They are so cute, just makes me wanna snuggle with them all


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## Marmitepepsi

Yes ...their box is right by my bed & I keep putting them on my tummy/chest & giving them lots of cuddles & strokes...can tell the more placid to the adventurous already!


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## RottieMummy

Gorgeous kittens, I can't believe some of them weigh more than Kira, makes me realise just how underweight she is!


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## Serenity123

Wow, I was expecting to read this thread and get annoyed but truthfully I have tears in my eyes at how well you have done and how much your cats mean to you, well done and I can't wait to see photo's of the mums and babies as they grow X


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## Marmitepepsi

Ahh  thank you so much, it means so much to read things like that...
Yes I'll be posting lots of updated piccies as they grow! They're all so lovely & they've just started playing with each other, it's so funny to watch...Mums are doing a great job in together, I'm very proud of my little Lula & Ezzy 
I feel such an incredible amount of responsibly for them all, all 7 Babies & Mummies! 
I'll be posting pics needing help of the sexes soon! Pretty sure on most but uncertain on a couple...
Thanks again for your lovely message X


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## Marmitepepsi

Evening ...
I have Lula booked in for her spay a week on Tues, I'm now thinking this is a bit soon? As won't she get sore with the ever growing kittens pawing her when they feed? Also they'll be starting to carry them around by the neck soon won't they? So will her having the operation impair her looking after the kittens as well as she can? I obviously have Ezzy here too who can hold the fort but I don't want Lula to then get behind on the parenting! Also, surely after the general anaesthetic she can't feed her kittens for X amount of time?

Just wondering if I should wait until the kittens are weaning well?

Also, Lula's still skinny (she weighs 3.3kilo)... I'm starting to wonder why? Ezzy is so much more stocky (3.7kilo) & Lula is always eating! Her bottom isn't runny anymore & she's not breathing fast anymore! She seems happier, if not always hungry! So also the fact she's so slim makes me think that I should hold off on the spay until she's a bit bigger again?

X


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## catcoonz

If you can keep her indoors with no escape routes, if she was mine i would wait until the kittens have gone to their new homes, then book both to be spayed together.


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## Marmitepepsi

Yes I think I feel happier at waiting until kittens are with new homes!

My only slight concern is that my back door is broken so when my girls (children) open it, they can't shut it again, I can shut it ok but it's too heavy for them as the patio door has come off the runners & I can't seem to fix it! It's not been a problem so far as I'm on the case but I'd absolutely hate for her/them to go into season again & get pregnant!

Think I'd rather wait though & just be extra vigilant with the doors...


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## catcoonz

Not ideal then. Hopefully you can repair the door.


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## QOTN

I would wait if possible. If you feel you need to do it sooner, ask for a flank spay so the kittens won't worry the wound. If your girls have not been carrying the babies around yet, I think it unlikely they will start now. If girls are bossy with bigger kittens they tend to drag them around.


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## Marmitepepsi

Evening,
I've just been reading up on kitten development etc, I just wondered that if you all had any tips that you swear by or things that you'd do without fail to help your kittens be the best cats they can be?

We're all handling them lots & today a couple walked over & nestled on our laps! 

They're all still in the nestting box yet they're getting more active by the half day ...one was even trying to climb up the side of the box, which freaked Ezzy out! They're all playing with each other loads now, walking well & faster, of course still a bit wobbly, sitting up, licking themselves & seem very happy with their big bellies!

When they get to 500g (so that I give a more accurate dosage) I'm going to worm them with panacur, they're all 3 weeks tomorrow & they weigh from 412g - 460g...

X


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## Justyna.D

When you move them from nestting box I would give them a small scratching post, litter try (my mentor advice me to use wooden litter for kittens to learn)


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## chillminx

@Marmitepepsi, some people put their young kittens into a kitten playpen in the daytime so they can safely find their feet and romp around a bit.  The sides are low enough for mum cat to jump in and out but too high for kits to climb out (though it won't be long before they can!) The playpens come in different sizes, this is a small size measuring about 1 metre in diameter.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Easipet-Fabric-Play-Small-Green/dp/B004D9RK1G/ref=sr_1_3?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1493537532&sr=1-3&keywords=kitten+playpen&th=1


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## catcoonz

I use the fabric play pens, gives mum some time out from her kittens, good to let kittens play safely plus when they are litter training, keeps them contained to help them.
I would recommend the large pen though as you have many kittens at the moment, will give them plenty of space, plus room to put toys in.

Litter, i use oko plus, as they do try and eat it and being corn based it is safe and doesn't clog tummies up.


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## QOTN

If you do not have a dedicated kitten room with dangers eliminated as much as possible, a pen is a very good idea. When they are first exploring you need to keep an eye on them. Even older kittens can hurt themselves.

When I had kittens I used Waitrose paper litter when they were learning to use the tray. It is very soft and ideal if you transition them from newspaper or kitchen towel.


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## Justyna.D

My kittens are just 10 days now, but I will use for them this kind of play pen https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/...RN92hCkVr5Vj4YLsqCvQcYD7MuE8KciX3x15MUkGh4Agg and a water fountain


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## Marmitepepsi

I'm still a bit concerned about Lula ...she's so skinny (3.3kg) which has been consistent though. She's feeding the kittens the same amount as Ezzy, if not less, her breathings not fast anymore but sometimes I think her ears feel warm again. She just seems a bit flat where as Ezzy has seemed to go back to normal pretty quickly. Could it be that Lula has more recovering to do as she had 5 kittens & Ezzy only had the 2? Or does it sound like something more untoward? The vet had a feel of her the other week & listened to heart & breathing & all sounded ok. I still just think she's not right though so I'm going to take her to the vets on Tuesday I think, maybe ask them to do some blood tests or something. Gutted it's bank hol Monday really as I'd like to take her tomorrow. She's improved since last week but she just still doesn't seem right to me, I'm a natural worrier too so I try not to jump straight for things if I can help it & try & give it time. 

She meows to go out so I sometimes think it's because she's a little bored being in. Then she perks up & seems fine & I think it's just that it's all taken it's toll on her & she's taking a while to get back to normal - well - as normal as you can be after having 5 kittens 3 weeks ago. Her bottom has been better & isn't as runny as it was, still sometimes a bit looser than other times but with the amount she's eating then im thinking that's why. She's had loads of chicken today & ate it all up, she's drinking more water lately but then I've given her some of the dry kitten food that she used to love - as she was meowing for it - & she ate quite a bit. But she's only been in the nesting box 4 times today & each time for only ten mins, not sure if it's her feeling off or if it's that Ezzy is the more dominant one & she feels she needs to get out...

Just can't put my finger on it. I also felt like a lumpy ish bit by her ribs on her side so I then thought maybe her insides aren't right after giving birth, but the vet didn't feel anything when she checked her tummy & Lula didn't flinch at the vets when the vet was having a feel...

Anyway I'll def be taking her to the vets again, it just stresses her out so much to go to the vet that I was hoping she'd be 100% by now. 

My mum tells me she seems fine & that I'm worrying over nothing & that Lula's eating, drinking, going to loo & also still caring for kittens & that maybe she's just feeling under the weather & will be fine in a couple of weeks.

Don't know, just feel a bit concerned ...


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## chillminx

Lula is your cat, so you know her better than anyone. You are the best judge of how she is atm and if you feel things are not quite right with her I'd trust your gut instinct and take her to the vet as you plan. 

Could be that she is not feeling well. I hope the vet will check her temperature in case of concerns about a womb infection. Did you count all the afterbirths when the kittens were born? Hopefully one has not been retained. 

If the vet finds she is physically OK then I can only think she is maybe not taking very well to motherhood. But if she is bored and restless I would not allow her out at any cost, not whilst her kittens are unweaned and she is not yet spayed.


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## Marmitepepsi

Yeah, there's def something not quite right, I just can't put my finger on it as she's seeming fed up one minute & then she's playing with toys & seems ok. She meows at me a lot, but she's always been a talker, I just can't help feeling she's trying to tell me something!

Yes, I counted all placentas & she ate 4 & I discarded 1...she had a teeny temp of 39.1 when I was at vets last week but vet wasn't too worried, she said I could have antibiotics if I wanted to, but I said I'd like to hold off & see how she is (as I have always done this with my children and myslef first)...vet said that's fine as it wasn't much of a temp. Although now part of me feels like maybe I was silly to do that :-( ...but she had perked up & was seeming brighter so initially i thought I'd done the right thing. I could call up & get that prescription but I think I'd just rather go to the vet again. If it were a womb infection would she be sore? She's fine me picking her up still?

No, I most defiantly won't be letting her out until she's spayed! I was originally going to spay her next week seeing as we have Ezzy holding the fort but I don't really feel comfortable doing that whilst she's still so actively feeding the kittens & they only rely on milk at the moment! Also the fact she's so skinny, id like her to have a bit more weight back on her before having an operation & going under general. 

She purrs away when she's feeding them & licks & cleans them well. I won't be letting her out but part of me does wonder that maybe she wants to go out...maybe I'll buy more toys or a big scratching climbing tower!


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## SpringDance

Could it be to do with the dynamics of the two? (Not saying it's not anything physical). I know they've worked together, but one of the overall themes is that Ezzy dominates her. Isn't cat domination supposed to onbe subtle? Could it be affecting her much more than it seems at first?


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## SpringDance

http://messybeast.com/cat_talk2.htm

http://messybeast.com/soc_cat.htm

Don't know if there's anything on here. I'm just speculating..


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## Marmitepepsi

Yes I've thought that too :-( ...& don't really know what I'd do about that. Feeling fed up myslef as my little Lula isn't herself & I want to help her. She's following me around a lot (but she's always done that)...wish my little munchin could talk  ...

I'll look at the links you've put up now 

XxXx


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## catcoonz

Does Lula have a bite wound by her ribs?

It's not a retained placenta, as i made sure on the phone that you counted each one as kittens arrived.

It could be stress, her coming back into season or just generally worn down from pregnancy.


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## Marmitepepsi

No, no bite marks, maybe I can just feel ribs that I couldn't before?

Also Lula seems a little freaked out at the sudden fast movement of all the kittens & al the playing & bundles! She jumps in the box, looks at them all walking around & then jumps out again & sits on my bed above the box & peers in to keep watch. Lots of talking from both Ez & Lu to the kittens, not meows, I'm sure there's probably a term for it, but like little 'brrrrr's' to them...

another thing is that a couple of them have a slight stuck eye in the mornings & afternoons & I wipe them with warm water with salt in & tea as I read that it's got lots of good properties to it, it's worked for the one who had the sore eye last week so I'm using on ones that are even just a little sticky! However, the other ginger has got a sore eye with a scab on his eyelid as (I saw it happen) one of the other kittens scratched him right in the eye! It's been 2 days & ive been soaking it too but is it worth going to the vet for that or just keep watch for a few days? I almost don't want to soak it too much as it's obviously good for a scratch to scab over so that it can heal underneath! But by not soaking it then his eye stays shut. What is dangerous about the eye staying shut? As I'm wanting to only soak his once a day ideally, to give the scab a chance to heal undernethe! The others I do Morning, Afternoon & evening...his Id rather do either in the morning or the afternoon!


----------



## chillminx

Not wanting to alarm you, but if the kitten was scratched right in the eye there is a possibility he has a scratch on the eyeball and he should be seen by the vet a.s.a.p. especially as the eye is still sticky several days after the incident. 

A corneal abrasion (scratch on the eye) can turn nasty due to the bacteria that lives in the eyes and can develop into a corneal ulcer if not treated promptly. Hopefully it is a light surface scratch but kitten's claws are sharp! I would want antibacterial eye ointment from the vet as a precaution if nothing else. 

Lula being a bit freaked by sudden movement from the kits does sound as though she's not feeling 100% in herself. But good news to hear that she 'chirrups' at her kittens a lot, bless her. I love the way mum cats talk to their kits.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Golly, I'm totally in 2 minds about taking Lula to the vet or not, for a start she hates it & gets really stressed! But today she's been fine & feeding kitties a lot & eating well & purring, her bottom is normal now too. I'm thinking maybe it's more her feeling fed up! I had the windows open a slither (on lock) & she was at them meowing to me (don't think it's her in season again as that time before it was a real low howling meow, this ones more a 'let me ouuuutttt' meow) . I think maybe she feels she can't get away & also I think maybe the dynamics are affecting her more than I thought, anyway knew that it was a risk as she's the more sensitive one, Ezzy get what Ezzy wants, Lula's more live & let live. Makes me think maybe I should spay them soon after all, one next week (would prob do Ezzy first actually as she's a bit more robust at the moment) but then that way they can both get a bit of space & it might help! Gosh, I really don't know what to do! Not sure what I can do in the house to help her, I think separating off the kittens again would backfire.

Yes might bring ginger boy to vet to get his eye looked at- although today it's open again - it's not been sticky gunky with it, just originakly stuck with the scab, as it's right on the eye lid! I read somewhere that you can use human Optrex on their eyes too so maybe I'll go & get some of that to help.

Gosh, I do not know how all you lovely breeders do this all the time! I'm worried about any & everything!

Equally it is wonderful watching them develop & grow & a few are now purring when on us! They like snuggling in our laps, so I think they'll be well & truly used to being cuddled when they go to new homes!



Ah update on his eye! It's looking much much much better!!!!!! Phew!


Pic of Lula feeding the ginger boys!


----------



## moggie14

Gosh how big and healthy the kittens look! You are all doing amazing! xx :Happy


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## Marmitepepsi

He he, yes they're all fattys ...the gingers have hit the 500g mark already...

Will be so hard to see them go ....although I'll be relieved to be only spending a normal amount of money on cat food again...they're eating me out of house & home ...


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## chillminx

Yes that's kittens for you - little eating machines, LOL.  That is why disreputable breeders home kittens too young, so as to save money on food  I hope you're planning to keep yours until at least 10 weeks old (as we do at the Shelter) though breeders keep pedigree kittens until the age of 13 weeks.


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## Marmitepepsi

Yes, definitely keeping them for a minimum of 10 weeks, but really I want 12!! Also if I feel they need a bit longer with Mums then I'll keep them even longer! I'll see how they get on but no way is any of them leaving any younger than 10!

How come cats Protection do 8? I guess because they have so many to home!


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## chillminx

Some animal welfare charities still seem to think 8 weeks onwards is OK for homing kittens.


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## Smuge

Are you keeping any of the kittens or letting them all go? Just curious!


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## Marmitepepsi

Yes we're keeping one ...possibly 2 if my children get their own way...I'd love to keep 2 but I'm trying to be realistic about the affordability of 4 cats...

If I can't find them all loving homes - as my priority is to try my absolute best to give them to loving people who will give them a life full of love, not just people who want a 'kitten' or want to have 'just a cat'...but if I can't find suitable homes then I'll keep them with me until I do, or just keep them for good ...


----------



## Smuge

Marmitepepsi said:


> Yes we're keeping one ...possibly 2 if my children get their own way...I'd love to keep 2 but I'm trying to be realistic about the affordability of 4 cats...
> 
> If I can't find them all loving homes - as my priority is to try my absolute best to give them to loving people who will give them a life full of love, not just people who want a 'kitten' or want to have 'just a cat'...but if I can't find suitable homes then I'll keep them with me until I do, or just keep them for good ...


I don't suppose it is the ginger one that you are keeping? You seem especially keen on that one 

I think that you have done an amazing job


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## Marmitepepsi

Ah thank you....

He he, no I don't think we're keeping any Gingers as I think they'll be huge boy Ginger toms & may dominate the house a bit & ...also I think the 2 Gingers have provisional homes anyway, when I say think, I'm not going to even think or promise any kitten to anyone yet, as I want to get them all healthily & happily to 6 weeks or so before people come over to look & choose ones!

BUT my slight fave little girlie is who we've nicknamed as 'shiny' at the moment as she's so- wait for it- shiny ...she's very 'sweet' (she's number 5) here's a pic....


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## SusieRainbow

Marmitepepsi said:


> Ah thank you....
> 
> He he, no I don't think we're keeping any Gingers as I think they'll be huge boy Ginger toms & may dominate the house a bit & ...also I think the 2 Gingers have provisional homes anyway, when I say think, I'm not going to even think or promise any kitten to anyone yet, as I want to get them all healthily & happily to 6 weeks or so before people come over to look & choose ones!
> 
> BUT my slight fave little girlie is who we've nicknamed as 'shiny' at the moment as she's so- wait for it- shiny ...she's very 'sweet' (she's number 5) here's a pic....


Oh yes, she's lovely ! You could call her Sparkle !


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## Marmitepepsi

Ah my daughters would love that name!!!!


----------



## Michebe

Shes adorable


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## Marmitepepsi

Her personality matches her face too, she's a real sweetie!


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## lorilu

Marmitepepsi said:


> huge boy Ginger toms & may dominate the house a bit


Red boys are the sweetest cats ever. In my experience anyway. I've been blessed with two over my lifetime.


----------



## SusieRainbow

lorilu said:


> Red boys are the sweetest cats ever. In my experience anyway. I've been blessed with two over my lifetime.


I had a ginger girl once , she was the sweetest cat with a purr like a tractor.


----------



## lorilu

My mother also had a few Red Boys over the years, all sweet as pie. I just love Red Boys. Never had a Red Girl, though I have a friend who has a few..


----------



## SpringDance

I think the forum members have fallen in love with the ginger one:Cat


----------



## SusieRainbow

Can we adopt him as Forum Cat ?


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Ahhhhhhhh I can feel love for the Ginger Boys! ....

They do both purr very loudly already!

My friend (who possibly wants one of the ginger boys) said the same, she had 2 ginger toms & said they were the sweetest cats ever, she lost one when she was pregnant ...then the other just vanished one day, so she's really got a soft spot for them both! Ezzys ginger (number 6) is very sweet natured & almost seems like he could be a girl, his face is very pretty too! Lula's ginger is a right old talker & more rufty tufty!
Oooooo maybe I should keep a ginger after all ...
When I have them all on my bed with me for 'cuddle time' Ezzys ginger always strolls over for a cuddle! Well, actually they all do & I end up with loads on my lap piled on top of each other!

They're very addictive, love spending time with them!

Here's some piccies....


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Kittens are 4 weeks tomorrow (Ezzy's 2 will be 4 weeks on Sunday)...

I'm about to think about weaning & litter training as I haven't started yet.

What is the best way to do both of these? Also all the kittens are still in the birthing box but seem very keen to get out now...I'm going to invest in a playpen which will hopefully come by Saturday. (Yet to choose one) or I saw a child's pop up ball put in Argos that I could collect tomorrow which also looks good for containing them.

I've got 2 extremely shallow litter trays (& 3 big ones) and I've got the wood pellet cat litter.

For weaning is there a paste or something I should try? Or just use the wet food on my finger for them to kick for now?

Going to be worming them all tonight!


----------



## OrientalSlave

I find they do both in their own good time without much effort from me. They need to be able to easily reach the litter trays and you need plenty of them, but until they start weaning themselves they don't really need a tray. Put any 'accidents' in, or the paper used to clean one up.

As to weaning they will wean themselves when they are ready, as long as they can see mum eating and get at her food.


----------



## leashedForLife

Marmitepepsi said,

I have Lula booked in for her spay... I'm now thinking it's a bit soon? 
...won't she get sore with the ever growing kittens pawing her when they feed? Also *they'll be starting to carry them around by the neck soon* ...
& surely after the general anaesthetic, she can't feed her kittens for X amount of time?

Just wondering if I should wait until the kittens are weaning well?
...
____________________________
.
.
The sooner she's spayed, the better - one less queen to get preg when she slips out, a door doesn't latch, a window-screen is loose, _______ .
.
Queens don't haul older kittens about who are already walking well; they move neonates by carrying them, plus they only "move house" when stressed - she's got no reason to shift her whole litter, if she did, she'd have done so weeks back. 
.
An infant onesie with small holes cut in it as 'windows' for her teats will protect her incision from the babies, AND from her own teeth / tongue. 
She can nurse her kits as soon as she's awake, no worries there.
.
.
.


----------



## chillminx

@Marmitepepsi - I adore the little tortie kitten, are you keeping her?


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Ah yes she's up there at the top to keep! 
We're going to wait another couple of weeks before we decide!
The black one, last born (the one in the first pic who's flaked out on my lap) well she (or maybe he-unsure about that one!) but he/she always comes over to me & snuggles into my lap, also he/she was the first one to purr on me!!! 
Gosh, it's going to be a tough call!

Lula is seeming MUCH better so I didn't take her to the vet in the end! I think she does suffer from Ezzy's bullish personality sometimes & they seem to have settled into a 'take it in turns to nurse' as opposed to them both being in the box - they still do sometimes lay in together but it's mainly 80% of time one in there, but it seems balanced! Lula's still thin though so any recommendations on food to help fatten her up again would be great ...

So, today we let them all out of the box! We've kitten proofed my bedroom & screwed a bit of plywood across the door so that kittens can't get out but Ez & Lu can jump easily over it! Figured it would be a good intro to when they are wanting to explore the house! Also we were making the sides of the nursing box higher & higher as they were climbing up & almost got out a few times ....

So this way they'll see mummas eating their food which will help them wean whenever they want to! I've put their litter trays in there too (but both mums don't use their one in my room that's been in for a month - they prefer their normal one on the landing!) so kitties won't see mums using the litter tray & today we had our first wee on my lap ...
I put him in the litter tray after & scooped his paw, not sure if that's what I should do but I thought I should at least do that - children's potty training all came flooding back!

Now, one thing since letting the kittens out of the box (still have the box there but I've cut a walkway for kitties to come & go as they please, rather than the hazardous high sides of the box!)...most seem to be preferring under my bed! They love being out & im amazed at how fast they can run! Love seeing them explore!

HOWEVER- mums are seeming to be suddenly more aggressive towards the kittens now they're out, biting them all over & even using back paws to kick them ...kittens have screeched a few times with it & I've intervened as I can't bear to see it! My question is, is this normal or should I take it as a warning sign that mums are a little freaked out by the change of the layout of the room?!?


----------



## catcoonz

Goats milk, white fish and vitamin paste will help to fatten Lula up.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Thank you @catcoonz

Just goats milk from the supermarket? 
I'll look up some vitamin pastes now.. x


----------



## catcoonz

Yes, unless you have a goat


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## Marmitepepsi

...he he, that made me chuckle...


----------



## carly87

Letting them have free roam at this stage isn't a great idea as they need to be confined in a smaller space until they learn what litterboxes are for. Otherwise your carpets are going to be as baptised as your lap was!  I normally keep mine in a good sized pen until they're all clean... Then the fun begins!


Scooping his paw in the tray was the perfect thing to do. I normally toilet kittens once or twice a day to help mum out if it's a big litter (mine are a lazy breed who enjoy the help). Might be worth you trying this. I stand kitten in the tray, praising all the time, then stimulate them to pee using a baby wipe. Then the wipe goes under kitten's nose, then scrunched in a ball and dropped in front of him in the tray. Then I help him with his paws and we bury the wipe together... Or at least, we pretent to. Then there's oodles and oodles of praise and he's left to wallow around in the tray until he finds his own way out. Then loads more praise and a toy. Normally, mine are pretty clean from the start, but being tiny, their concentration spans are as miniscule as they are, and they often forget where the trays are, so accidents do happen. As soon as they're clean they come out, but I have a litter tray in every corner or every private space, so if they do get caught short, they're never more than a few feet away from a tray. Over time as they grow, I remove the trays until there's only 3 or 4 per room, and it stays like that until kittens leave for their new homes. By making trays more than readily available, your floors stay clean, your kittens develop amazingly good toileting habits, and your new owners love you forever!


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Ah that sounds a great way to help them litter train....

Hmmmmm maybe I was a little hasty letting them out of the box!
I hadn't ordered a pen & it was getting risky to leave them in the box even to pop to the shop...thought it would be tues/weds by the time one arrived!
My room isn't that big (about 12ft by 14ft...he he, which I know is huge to them!)...but I have wooden floors & not much around for them to get in a pickle with...I've got 4 litter trays in here but think I'll get a few more!
It's the ginger boys who are weeing already...the girls haven't done so far!

I might try your way of helping them out as I've made a fuss of them coming out of them box so feel I should stick with my decision (which I may well regret when my room smells of wee!)...
Shame mums don't use the litter tray that's in here for them as that would be perfect!

Tortie just ate a bit of food as Mum was having her dinner so she strolled up & copied!
Others not intrested yet!


----------



## ZoeM

Just caught up with this thread after a fairly lengthy break from PetForums. Reminded me of the time the Sphinx litter was born and everyone was on tenterhooks waiting.

Sterling job @Marmitepepsi - what an amazing Grandma you are to these beautiful kittens. Hope you manage to home them easily. Are there any rescues nearby who could help out if you get stuck? x

I am so kitten broody right now, and trying to avoid taking in fosters as my old boy is getting so deaf now and struggling with dementia so wouldn't be very fair.

Thanks for sharing your experience with us, and thanks to the lovely breeders for all their advice and help!

Xx


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## Marmitepepsi

@ZoeM ah thank you! It really means a lot when people say such lovely things!

Yes they're very gorgeous & im trying to enjoy every moment (in amongst the worry) as I won't ever have kittens again, so I want to enjoy it as much as possible & also do the best job I can for those kittens & of course Ez & Lu!

It's amazing all their personalities already!

Hmmmm maybe I should foster one day! Although like you say, I guess it runs the risk of upsetting the resident cats!

X


----------



## QOTN

If you find an accident, mop up with kitchen towel and put the towel in the tray, clean the area thoroughly to remove the smell and put trays down in any 'favourite' places. Keep the trays a bit dirty to encourage the kittens to use them rather than elsewhere. Then as CC says, once the kittens are clean gradually reduce the number of trays. I do wonder if under your bed might be a problem. Could you block off the access with cardboard or similar?


----------



## spotty cats

QOTN said:


> Could you block off the access with cardboard or similar?


I would block access.

We don't do anything much to get our kittens to eat and use the tray. They are behind a fence, no free roaming a room, with small litter trays that they simply use on their own once they start eating at 3 weeks. They just toddle over to mums food and begin to eat one day, once that happens we put a tray in and they explore and use it, no accidents or needing to place them in it.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Update this morning-
All kittens are residing in the nesting box again now (& not under the bed!)...

Lula seems really happy & relaxed with this new arrangement & I think the box being open & them all having a wonder over to the food/water seems to have helped Lula feel better & less governed by Ezzy.
There's nothing under my bed at all & it's quite high off the ground & I can get under it, so for the next couple of days I think I'm going to see how it goes as it is, it's all safe & everyone seems happy (still sometimes being rough with the kittens though) but that's calmed down now that they all use the box as their base, I think at first it freaked Lu & Ez, but kittens seem to be loving it! I'll keep eye on litter training, main concern is that they won't see Mums doing it.

I have wooden pellet litter, I think I might spray the pellets with a light spray of water so that it turns more powdery!

Thank you


----------



## spotty cats

We use wood pellets, the kittens are fine with them


----------



## carly87

No need to spray the litter. Just make sure to put their wees in there, or,e ven better, scoop some wee from mum's tray and put it there to help them learn by smell what they need to do. My kittens don't like wood pellets, but I do accept that my breed... Ok, I admit it... My cats... Are incredibly fussy and generally get things rearranged to suit themselves.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
clean EMPTY cardboard boxes, to fill the space beneath the bed, will keep them from hiding / pooping / peeing / chewing cords, etc, under the bed & out of sight.
.
use stink-free boxes that don't come from a grocery or liquor store [less chance of cockroach eggs coming along in them] - case-sized boxes used for 8.5 x 11 paper packs, from a copy-store, are great, they are sturdy, clean, & have lids.
Cut the sides lower if U must, to get them beneath the bed - don't cut the lids down, only sidewalls. 
.
.
.


----------



## OrientalSlave

leashedForLife said:


> less chance of cockroach eggs coming along in them


They are much rarer in the UK than the US


----------



## SpringDance

OrientalSlave said:


> They are much rarer in the UK than the US


Rarer? You mean there's a possibility?!


----------



## leashedForLife

OrientalSlave said,

[Cockroaches] are much rarer in the UK than the US.
_________________________
.
.
'rare' is not 'none', & coward that i am - having learned how bl**dy hard they are to get rid of, vs prevent! - i'd err on the side of caution. 
.
boxes from other than groceries & liquor stores are safer -
just don't choose stinky boxes, such as former detergent packaging, or toxics packaging - pest sprays, slug-bait, fertilizer, etc. // Clean, empty, not smelly. 
.
.
.


----------



## QOTN

SpringDance said:


> Rarer? You mean there's a possibility?!


The thought gives me the creeps but I believe many restaurants and other food outlets have cockroaches when they are inspected by Local Authority inspectors. A friend of mine had that job.


----------



## Michebe

I really really hate creepy crawlies of any sort, luckily maggi has decided all insects must be eaten so im hoping there will be less spiders around this autumn, but lots more pics please as i doubt i will ever have kittens myself


----------



## OrientalSlave

SpringDance said:


> Rarer? You mean there's a possibility?!


Yes! But since:

_"Cockroaches are rarely able to survive out of doors in the British climate, but thrive around the heating ducts and boiler rooms of large centrally heated buildings e.g. hospitals, bakeries, hotels and restaurant kitchens, and blocks of flats. They cluster around pipes, stoves, and sinks, especially in humid areas, and will often remain hidden during the day"_​
they aren't the problem they are in the US, unless of course global warming takes a hand.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Here's some recent pics of the little monkeys!
Weight at 4 weeks-
1 - 570g
2 - 548g
3 - 605g 
4 - 539g
5 - 531g
6 - 546g
7 - 530g


----------



## SusieRainbow

Adorable - the gingers are so cute - and the tortie - and the black and black and whiite one - !!! They really look as though their personalities are shining through now.


----------



## lorilu

OrientalSlave said:


> Yes! But since:
> 
> _"Cockroaches are rarely able to survive out of doors in the British climate, but thrive around the heating ducts and boiler rooms of large centrally heated buildings e.g. hospitals, bakeries, hotels and restaurant kitchens, and blocks of flats. They cluster around pipes, stoves, and sinks, especially in humid areas, and will often remain hidden during the day"_​
> they aren't the problem they are in the US, unless of course global warming takes a hand.


The only place I ever saw a cockroach was when I lived in the south - in Houston TX, for 4 years.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
sorry to divert the thread, but i'm in Boston - not exactly a tropical climate, LOL.
Roaches, even in Alaska, do just fine -- by breeding & living in human space, our controlled-temp homes, businesses, & transit points: shipping hubs, warehouses, etc. They are very hardened by now to all the tried-&-true pesticides, & very difficult to kill.
.
A single F can produce hundreds or thousands of eggs / young, even if she's a virgin - meaning she produces a whopping "litter" of all-F progeny in the absence of any Ms, so each of her F infants can churn out more asexual clones, -or- if they mate, M & F progeny.
.
Asian cockroaches are now endemic in U-S cities - they're black, with curved backs, smaller than the Euro roaches, much smaller than the less-problematic American palmetto [who tend to enter for shelter, not so much to infest by the thousands]. // 'Cold climate' or temperate 4-season climes are no barrier to roaches, thriving in climate-controlled comfort with food easily available.
ONE DROP of grease from a hamburger can fuel an adult roach for over a week. They can thrive & breed, literally, on crumbs.
.
.
.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Quick question about Panacur! I know I need to do the kittens for 3 consecutive days, but I thought the vet said to give to mums for 3 consecutive days too? But the box says once?


----------



## OrientalSlave

Marmitepepsi said:


> Quick question about Panacur! I know I need to do the kittens for 3 consecutive days, but I thought the vet said to give to mums for 3 consecutive days too? But the box says once?


The dose for an adult is more per kilo in one shot. Ring your vet and ask about it. Good luck, I ended up wearing Panacur when I used it!


----------



## Marmitepepsi

....and so the fun begins ...I was awoken at 5am by energetic monkeys!

They're all loving food now! Which brings along toilet accidents! Woke up to 3 little poops on the floor this AM, one in litter tray & lots of wee's in litter trays! Mums wouldn't use their tray that was in my room, so, I've taken off the door gate & let them on landing now too as that's where mums litter tray is & then they can see them using it! It's all wood floor & ive blocked off the stairs & also covered over the spindles! They're all still sleeping in their box & they're loving having room to run around! Really pleased with them all so far!

How long does it take on average for them to be toilet trained?

Lula & her babies-


----------



## carly87

It's going to take ages with them being in such a large space! Mine are normally completely 100% clean by 6 weeks, but they're a very slow breed.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

....oh dear ...

Was kinda just going with my feeling...have seen all of them go in the trays...I've just screwed loads of bits of wood around so don't feel I can undo it all again so I'm going to cross my fingers v hard that they all get hang soon....they're 5 weeks tomorrow & yesterday was first proper eating day & today first proper wee/poo day!

Let's see what the morning brings me :Shy...wish me luck, sounds like I might need it!


----------



## Smuge

Marmitepepsi said:


> ....oh dear ...
> 
> Was kinda just going with my feeling...have seen all of them go in the trays...I've just screwed loads of bits of wood around so don't feel I can undo it all again so I'm going to cross my fingers v hard that they all get hang soon....they're 5 weeks tomorrow & yesterday was first proper eating day & today first proper wee/poo day!
> 
> Let's see what the morning brings me :Shy...wish me luck, sounds like I might need it!


I am really enjoying reading these updates  keep up the great work


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## LJC675

Great to read all the updates, keep them coming. I've got 2 new babies (didn't breed them) and it's so great seeing them grow, discover new things and learn something new every day. Mine saw rain this morning for the 1st time whilst they were looking through the patio door, their little faces were a picture.

It's so amazing how fast they grow, that last picture is so gorgeous.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

So, no accidents for 2 days now!!!! They're all using the litter trays brilliantly!
They're loving eating food, I'm looking forward to being home today & tomorrow to just keep an exact close eye on who's eating what etc!

They've fled the nesting box now so it's gone! They're loving the cat beds that I have, the cat basket & wait for it, their fave is the top of my mini pull along suitcase! So I've now put a towel & cover on top of that! They're all jumping well & im awaiting the 'climbing the curtains day' which I think is fast approaching! Our new scratch post/cat tree arrived yesterday & it'll be interesting to see them using that! They're so lovely! We cannot choose which one to keep! Also number 6 has been officially 'reserved'...to which I got tearful! We're all going to be a nightmare when they go off to new homes, all 4 of us will be in tears! I hope the new owners update us with how they're doing! I'm going to send email pics to the lady that's having number 6, he's so lovely & such a soft temperament...

Will post some pics later!
They're all wormed & it wasn't as bad as I expected it to be! No worms are present in their poo so hopefully means they never had them!

Love all these kitties! A pic of them all on my suitcase!


----------



## lymorelynn

Little darlings :Cat:Cat Glad to hear the litter training is going well and they are enjoying their food :Cat


----------



## moggie14

They are all so scrummy, bless them. Great to hear they are all doing so well :Happy


----------



## chillminx

They are all gorgeous wee poppets.  I can understand it will be hard to part with any of them. I was a hopeless foster carer (many years ago) because I couldn't bear to part with the kittens when the time came.


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## Michebe

I would never be able to part with them either, would love to snuggle them


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## Marmitepepsi

So, number 7 - aka Blacky, I haven't seen eat food! All the others now come rushing over at the sound of the food, but not blacky! 
She's happy in herself, playing well & using litter tray well. She's only 5 weeks today so I'm thinking not to be too worried at this stage!?!?! I'm going to go back to weighing her every day though to keep track (as have now been doing it about every 3/4days)...she's second from lowest weight (640g) but she looks well & is acting well.

Just seems a little odd that she's the only one out of the 7 that's not eating the food?!


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## lymorelynn

You sometimes get one that's a bit slower to catch on the others. At this stage I wouldn't be too worried so long is she doesn't start to lose weight. I've had one that wasn't interested until I left a raw chicken wing for mum


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## Marmitepepsi

...that pic really made me laugh!

A teeny little kitty with that in her mouth...


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## carly87

I find there's always a girl who's a bit awkward, and who refuses to eat when the others are really chowing down. Have you put some mushy, stinky food in her mouth with your fingers so she gets the taste for it?


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## Marmitepepsi

Ahhhh look at these cuties....


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## SusieRainbow

Oh, they are so sweet, as if butter wouldn't melt !


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## Marmitepepsi

He he...butter wouldn't melt...

Guess what time they had me up for the day today?!? 
4:30!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Needless to say I may kitten proof downstairs next week! ...

They're getting crazier by the day! But great fun! Trying to embrace it as much as poss as they'll be all grown up & in new homes before we know it ...

Can I just ask what is the best way to do it as to least distress/upset Ez & Lu? Don't want them all suddenly 'gone' in the space of a few days! Or are they done with being Mummas by that time!?


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## Shrike

I think if you rehome the kits at about 12 weeks then that is the sort of time cats would go off to find their own territory anyway. I first met my Brooke in the shelter an hour after her kittens were homed and she'd been moved to the re-homing section. She didn't really seem too phased about it. I'm sure they will call for the kits for a bit, but accept they've moved on to find their own territory. A lot of mums will actively chase away older kittens.


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## MilleD

Marmitepepsi said:


> Ahhhh look at these cuties....


Oh my, that pic is adorable. Look at all those eyes! :Joyful


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## OrientalSlave

Shrike said:


> I think if you rehome the kits at about 12 weeks then that is the sort of time cats would go off to find their own territory anyway. I first met my Brooke in the shelter an hour after her kittens were homed and she'd been moved to the re-homing section. She didn't really seem too phased about it. I'm sure they will call for the kits for a bit, but accept they've moved on to find their own territory. A lot of mums will actively chase away older kittens.


They vary, but ferals often don't leave until later. After the last one went at 14 weeks Eadlin was looking for her kittens for several days whereas Aoife would have been please to see the back of them a week or two earlier.


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## Marmitepepsi

At what point should I worry about number 7 not eating? She's 5 half weeks so it's still quite early yeah? Only that all the others are well in the swing!

I've tried from my finger but she's not intrested! Tried different types (but not dry) was thinking maybe I should crush some dry & see if that helps. Or even try plain chicken. She's only put on 15g in 2 days where as all the others are about 50g...she's playing, happy, active though so I'm inclined to just think she's a slow starter!?


Also, this may sound odd but when she was born I thought I saw a boy bit sticking out, so I presumed it was a boy...but now, her bits look like the other girls so I'm pretty sure she's a girl. But if that is the case then what did I see when she/he was born? Do boy kittens sometimes come out with their boy bits out?

X


----------



## Marmitepepsi

And just for cute factor! They're loving the cat tree!


----------



## Gallifreyangirl

Can't believe how big the kittens have got now. I especially love the black kitten in your litter.


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## Marmitepepsi

Yes 'blacky' (number 7-the one who's not eating solids) she's a cutie!!!! She's soppy too & loves a cuddle! We might keep her - keep changing our minds & cant decide!

You can see all stripes in blacky too - which in understand might disappear as she gets older?- but her coat is lovely! She's got a grey but under her chin & it's kinda grey at the roots & black on the ends! When she was a teeny kitten she always came over to my lap & fell asleep & she was the first one to purr on me ❤...

They're all so lovely!


----------



## SpringDance

As long as she's thriving and otherwise eating fine, I don't think I'd worry about food yet. I assume they're like babies and develop at different rates.


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## Marmitepepsi

Number 6 ginger has got a slightly runny bottom & was reaching to be sick this AM (it wasn't actual sick, just making the noise but only dribble came out)...he's still feeding from mum & solids & playing & looks ok. But after Poor little Kira I'm extra worried. Do they sometimes get a bad tummy & then be ok or is it always a big warning sign? I'm going to keep a close eye on his weight & his actions over the next couple of days. All others are fine, I've been giving them loads of different brands of foods so could it just be that? Also he like chewing the side of the litter tray so I thought it could be that too?


----------



## SpringDance

I would have a quick chat with the vet and see what they say. Better to worry over nothing than leave it too late.


----------



## catcoonz

Could need worming or you are changing the food too often.


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## leashedForLife

*Marmitepepsi* said,

..._ I've been giving them *loads of different brands* of foods - so could it just be that? ..._
_______________________________
.
.
why? 
.
.
.


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## QOTN

I think many kittens have the squits at some time during the weaning process. Their guts have to adjust from digesting milk to different things. I seem to remember it is the same with children although it is hard for me to recall exactly what happened 47 years ago! I know there is a recommendation for human babies to have foods introduced in a certain order with wheat and eggs suggested as last in the list to avoid any intolerance developing. I always gave my kittens chicken first and only gradually introduced other foods as time went on.

However, I think it is not usual for kittens to vomit so I would keep an eye on Ginger the Second. He may have tried to eat something he should not.


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## Marmitepepsi

Thank you, I only wormed them all last week & none came out the other end. Which leads me to a little question of, I thought they say that all kittens are born with worms? How come I never see any even in Mums when I've wormed them (& they always use litter tray so I regularly check)...

I was working today so my partner went & checked on him & he was up & eating & bright (but still slightly runny bottom)...

I'll be home in a bit so I can check him out then too. I've got quite a range of kitten foods as I thought it would be good to get them used to a range for when they go to new homes, also I've got better food that I'm trying even mums on (as I've learned a lot about food on this forum too)...


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## SusieRainbow

I don't think it's a good idea to chop and change the kittens food really, choose a good quality one and if new owners want to change it advise them to change over gradually over a period of weeks to avoid tummy upset.


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## OrientalSlave

Puppies apparently are born with worms which migrate from the mother. In cats any encysted roundworm (which wormers won't touch) awaken at the end of pregnancy and they migrate to the kittens in her milk. You don't necessarily notice worms in stools unless it's a very heavy load.


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## leashedForLife

.
as noted above, roundworms can cross the placenta & / or be ingested with breastmilk - 
that's why it's best to worm Mama before she's bred, which, of course, implies *planned *matings & pregnancies, not accidental / unplanned / random matings that the cats arrange themselves.
All cats are long-day breeders, but how much notice U get of any estrus varies from 1 F to another, & even from heat to heat - hence why spaying a F kitten by 4 to 5-MO is a good precaution. // Getting pregnant when just a baby themselves is quite possible, & it's not safe for dam or litter, nor healthy for either. Kittens born of very-young dams are prone to be underweight, stunted even as adults, be stillborn, fail to thrive / fade away & die in the nest, etc.
.
Getting a F cat to adulthood, healthy & happy, & definitely NOT bred on her own impulse, is not an entirely-easy task. Cats in heat are determined escape artists - our Siamese queen once leaped out a 2nd-story window THRU a closed window-screen, & not any flimsy fabric screen, either! - it was aluminum mesh. 
The airlock is a good precaution - 2 doors between any F cat & the outside world. 
.
.
.


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## OrientalSlave

If the female has encysted roundworms worming before mating is useless as in that state no wormer affects them


----------



## Marmitepepsi

So, Lula's in season already! She's not feeding all the kittens as much as Ezzy, so maybe that's why? She's still quite skinny (3.2kg)...even though she's eating a lot.

Anyway, I was thinking that maybe I should get her spayed soon then Ezzy after when the kittens are fully weaned.

I know a few of you said you'd wait till all kittens are rehomed but seeing as I have Ezzy holing the milk fort here then what would be the other negatives for getting Lula spayed now? Do you think I should also wait till she's a bit chubbier again (but she seems well in herself and has lots of energy & is happy)...


----------



## QOTN

I think it will be a good idea to spay Lula now if the kittens do not have to depend on her for milk. Presumably they are mainly weaned and just having milk as a top-up which Ezzy can provide. If she has a flank spay they can still nurse without a problem if necessary and if you don't do it now she will presumably keep calling which will not help her get back in optimum condition.


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## ZoeM

The black and white fluffy tuxedo has my heart <3


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## Marmitepepsi

Had to share as she really made me chuckle!

Lula 'Please let me out Mummy, I've put my shoes on'


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## LJC675

That's great


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## Marmitepepsi

A few updated piccies for you all!

They're all 8 weeks now & im going to start thinking about new homes for them ...they're gorgeous!

They're all litter trained & weaning well, they still have milk from mums (mainly Ezzy)...going to get Lula spayed next week! Been putting it off slightly as I just hope she copes ok with the operation even though she's so skinny!

I 'think' we're keeping shiny-number 5 (name to be changed!) but we're also thinking maybe to keep blacky-number 7 as she's taken so long to wean & we feel she might be better off staying with us rather than another home! She's a monkey as she would only eat if she was on my lap and being fed the 'creme de la creme' of kitten food...she's a real fussy one he he...she now eats down with the rest of them but still only eats the super expensive food!!! Also I've read about that 'fever coat'...I'll attach a pic but does she look like she has that or does she just have grey roots as her colouring? Also her markings are still visbale in the light, will they go as she gets older? 

They're so lovely! They're now allowed downstairs too and they love it! I still bring them all up with me when I go to bed though!

2 have homes, we're keeping 1 (even though my little girls want 2)..so just need to rehome 4!

Tortie-number 2 is a fave of ours too!
It's going to be so emotional come the start of July ... we'll all be emotional messes for a good couple of weeks!


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## SusieRainbow

Gorgeous babies , bags of personality there ! You must, of course, call your keeper Sparkle !


----------



## Michebe

They are all very cute, i would want to keep them all, esp love the gingers but i would never be able to part with kittens


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## chillminx

Wow, what gorgeous bonny looking kittens! They are all lovely but I am very, very taken with the two gingers! Such sweet faces bless them!


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## Marmitepepsi

Hello!
The lovely kitties are 9 weeks already! 
Ginger 6 - Harry - has a new home & the lady is absolutely lovely, she has a 10 & 6 year old & they've been over 3 times to see him & give him cuddles!
Ginger 3 - (they've not chosen a name yet) is going to a lovely friend of mines son & his wife who are complete cat lovers and have just lost their 20yr old cat :-( ...

They're due to go once 12 weeks...gulp 

We're keeping shiny! Number 5!

AND I need some sense talked into me as we're 'thinking' of keeping blacky (number 7) too...but that'll be a 4 cat household!?! Is that crazy or the fact we'll have 3, then what's an extra one!? Also blacky & shiny get on really well and they both like to sit near me! 

Only slight problem with that is that my friend likes blacky (they have a 10yr old ginger male) that they're unsure if he'll like another cat in the house. And I know it sounds silly but she's not as much of a cat lover as me, should I be judging people by my own standards or just be happy that they're going to a nice home?

So Im in a quandary!!!!

3 still yet to have new homes! But I'll
Be secretly happy to have them a bit longer!

I'll post some pics!


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## LJC675

Those photos are brilliant, love the cat tree of kittens and the chair one with the little poking out tongue.


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## chillminx

The kittens are gorgeous, and very bonny looking. You and the girls have done very well raising them!  

I hope the mum cats have their own dishes btw, and are not having to share with the kittens?!  (re: pic no. 4) OK when kittens are tiny to share with mum, but not by this stage.


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## Marmitepepsi

Mums have their dishes downstairs...but kittens are eating machines and eat from theirs too! There's also 4 bowls downstairs (& 4 up) 

Would it be wise to shut Mums in so they can eat in peace do you think?

How come it's not good to share? X


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## QOTN

How can you stop them eating from all the bowls?


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## SusieRainbow

Gorgeous looking babies, I bet you could keep them all ! Glad you're keeping Sparkle .


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## Calvine

Adorable; thank you for the lovely photos! They look like real little characters.


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## chillminx

QOTN said:


> How can you stop them eating from all the bowls?


I would give each of the mums their own microchip feeders at this stage, and also feed the two mums at a different height, above the sight of the kittens.


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## QOTN

chillminx said:


> I would give each of the mums their own microchip feeders at this stage, and also feed the two mums at a different height, above the sight of the kittens.


It never occurred to me in 20 years of breeding. I always provided enough food for mum and kittens.


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## OrientalSlave

chillminx said:


> I would give each of the mums their own microchip feeders at this stage, and also feed the two mums at a different height, above the sight of the kittens.


I'm not sure you want to prevent the kittens from seeing her feed. I believe it's one of the things that helps them start to wean themselves.


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## chillminx

OrientalSlave said:


> I'm not sure you want to prevent the kittens from seeing her feed. I believe it's one of the things that helps them start to wean themselves.


But these kittens are 8 weeks old and already eating solids.  .


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## OrientalSlave

chillminx said:


> But these kittens are 8 weeks old and already eating solids.  .


I still don't get what the problem is.


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## chillminx

OrientalSlave said:


> I still don't get what the problem is.


It is based on the concept of competition for resources. By the time the kittens are 8 weeks old mum may be happier having her own food resources instead of having to share them with the kittens. I understand you can provide masses of food for kits and mum so there is more than enough and mum cat doesn't feel deprived. Hopefully that does reduce the feeling of competition and all is OK with mum cat.

When I fostered mum and kittens I felt it was right to give mum her own food bowl as kittens got older. I would do the same if I were ever to start fostering again in the future. But of course I am not a breeder, so you may see things differently.


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## spotty cats

QOTN said:


> It never occurred to me in 20 years of breeding. I always provided enough food for mum and kittens.


As does every breeder I know. I wouldn't separate mums to eat, no need to.


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## OrientalSlave

I put enough bowls down that it's easy for them all to eat at the same time, including mum.


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## carly87

It wouldn't occur to me at all to separate mum for feeding! I tend to put only a few bowls down for mine, but they are always kept well filled. As a result, my cats and kittens come to see feeding time as a bonding event. There's never competition for resources as there's always enough food and water whenever anyone goes to the bowl. Even when I only have adults, they will all regularly eat together. This causes no upset or aggression.


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## chillminx

Cats in the same social group may be amenable to eating near each other. Mums and their kittens are in the same social group so I assume this is why the mums don't mind sharing the same feeding station and even the same bowls! If there are several queens who don't mind sharing a feeding station when there are no kittens around, the adults must also all be in the same social group.

In multi-cat households of moggies there is IME unlikely to be only one social group. Just taking my household of moggies as a fairly typical example, there are 3 social groups. These comprise one social group of 2 girls (4 yr old sisters who get along very well), one social group comprising 2 of the boys (7 yr old brothers who tolerate each other) and the third social 'group' of just one boy (aged 6, gets on fine with the girls but not with the other two boys). The girls interact playfully with all the boys.

All my cats have individual microchip feeders to prevent food theft. Each social group eats out of sight of the other 2 groups. The girls have their feeding stations fairly close together and are OK with this. The 2 brothers have separate feeding stations in the same room about 8 feet apart and they are fine with that. The 3rd boy is fed out of sight of the other two groups and this is necessary to prevent him becoming aggressive.

There is always food available. Not dry food (I don't feed dry). There are set meals at approximate times, breakfast, lunch, tea and supper. In addition there are snacks (of wet food) in between meals if a cat is hungry. If a cat asks for food I never make them wait (don't believe in it) and it would be fair to say my cats are fed on demand really, certainly they never go hungry!

Meals are of an adequate size, with some food usually being left in every bowl.

Basically the food resources for the cats are plentiful and because of such a bountiful supply on demand it would be easy for a human to assume there must be no competition issues. But I know this not to be true.

The girls feeding stations are in the hall, out of sight of the boys feeding stations in the kitchen, and upstairs. If the girls are eating or about to eat, and one of the boys even sits quietly watching at the door to the hall, some distance from the girls, one girl in particular can become aggressive, chasing him away and swiping at him. A while ago this resulted in an incident where one boy got his eye scratched by that girl, causing a corneal abrasion needing OOH veterinary treatment.

The above incident was entirely due to the girl's perceived need to protect her food resources . She is not otherwise aggressive to the boys. She perceived there to be competition for food even though, as said above, the feline food resources in my house are bountiful and constant.

Food resources are definitely a major issue in many multi cat households I know of, and get asked advice about. Since the injured eye episode in my house, the door to the hall is now kept closed at feline feeding times, to maintain harmony between the 3 social groups.

Theresa DePorter (DVM MRCVS DECAWBM DACVB) says "_Feeding stations (in a multi cat household) should provide privacy and security as they can be a cause of conflict. Meal feeding cats in close proximity is not recommended. Instead each cat should have its own feeding station out of sight of the other cats."
_
(other references available. )
_
_


----------



## QOTN

Perhaps the best approach is to wait and see if there is any friction. Those of us who have bred our cats and have a sociable breed do not have to consider these things. If @Marmitepepsi is keeping any of the kittens it is probably a good idea to watch carefully to see if the mothers are happy with the additional family members. Willingness to share food may be a good indication.


----------



## carly87

You've made the point quite beautifully though, CM, in that kittens and mother are in the same social group. Therefore there is no need to separate their feeding stations surely. Perhaps breeders have a different take on it as many of us have only 1 group of cats, or a few groups who never get access to the other group's part of the house, ergo they need their food bowls to be placed where they have access to. This results in us being able to put down a few communal bowls, and not have to separate because, let's face it, if we were having to split cats off into ones and twos, not only would we run out of space rapidly, but we would find ourselves in a position where we were unable to spend enough time with each cat.

Most breeders are good at reading signs of distress, and I have to say, I've never heard of anyone needing to separate mum and kitten bowls for feeding. In fact, speaking from personal experience, on the rare occasions I have had to do this as a one off, for example if I need to give mum medication in food, I find that she gets distressed when I prevent her kittens from joining her when she calls them to feed. All of my mums, once past the ravenous initial weaning stage, are more than happy to let the kittens have first munch, even if it's a high reward food, because they know I will continue to refill the bowl until everyone has eaten. I manage food competition in my house by never letting the bowl run empty, and I think anecdotally that many other breeders do the same. I wonder if this also changes things.


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Just came online in first time in a while...weirdly had no notifications of the posts above about them feeding together/separate...

They all seem really happy feeding in the same area at the moment so hopefully it'll stay like that with the ones we're keeping! The only thing sometimes is that Lula is so giving that she hangs back and let's them all go first and then has hers, but there's no aggression at all so far, don't think she has it in her! I take her off sometimes to give her the soooooopa dooooopa cat food so that she can put on a little more weight!

Here's a pic of them all feeding (Lu was waiting by the door)


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## SusieRainbow

Oh, that is so sweet ! Which ones ae you keeping and what are their names ?


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Welllllllll we're keeping 2 ...

So I'll be a 4 cat household!

We're keeping Shiny (no5)
& Blacky (no7)...
It actually works out that we'll have one from each Mumma! So that's nice! The last born from each! 
Shiny & Blacky are often cuddled up together! Shiny is sooooooooo soppy and loves being scooped up for a sleep on one of us....she's so fluffy and gorgeous! Blacky is just stunning, her eyes are like a burnt orange! She has black fur but with greyish roots and you can see her blacker tabby ish markings in the light - although am I right in thinking this might go? Or would that have happened by now?

Names TBC! We've only just decided to def keep 2...and can't agree on names!

Any suggestions welcome!!!!

Here's a couple of pics of them!


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## SusieRainbow

well, you know mine .....


----------



## Marmitepepsi

So...3 kitties have gone over the past 2 days ....

Feeing really emotional about it...

Number 3...Gingy renamed 'Stamford' went yesterday 

And number 1 & 4...first born and splodge have left together today...renamed Millie & Molly 

My daughter has sobbed each time and I've been welling up & trying not to look like a sop when the new owners are coming and are excited about their new pets!

House feeing empty ....Harry- number 6 is going on Monday and then the following Monday tortie, number 2, is going...

Gosh what a rollercoaster ...

At least we're keeping 2...!

Lula was spayed on Tuesday and is doing well bless her...took her for check up today and scar is healing well...Ezzy's booked in for 2 weeks time...then will do the kitties...

Feeing flat :-( ....


----------



## chillminx

Aww bless the little sweeties - off to their new homes, and hopefully to wonderful lives where they will be adored!  

I know it's hard to part with them though, even more so when they are as beautiful as your kitties. You have given them a great start in life looking after them with such care. It is the best gift you could have given them. . 

And you still have the two gorgeous kitties you are keeping, as well as the beautiful mum cats.


----------



## Smuge

Marmitepepsi said:


> So...3 kitties have gone over the past 2 days ....
> 
> Feeing really emotional about it...
> 
> Number 3...Gingy renamed 'Stamford' went yesterday
> 
> And number 1 & 4...first born and splodge have left together today...renamed Millie & Molly
> 
> My daughter has sobbed each time and I've been welling up & trying not to look like a sop when the new owners are coming and are excited about their new pets!
> 
> House feeing empty ....Harry- number 6 is going on Monday and then the following Monday tortie, number 2, is going...
> 
> Gosh what a rollercoaster ...
> 
> At least we're keeping 2...!
> 
> Lula was spayed on Tuesday and is doing well bless her...took her for check up today and scar is healing well...Ezzy's booked in for 2 weeks time...then will do the kitties...
> 
> Feeing flat :-( ....


Aww I would feel the same! Tho with 4 cats I suspect that the house will not feel empty for long


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Yes ...I'm really proud of them all...they're all lovely! 

I'm a very lucky mum to have 4 lovely cats!

All the owners I'm really happy with and it seems like all the personalities of the cats have been matched with the owners!!! They've all said they'd send me updates and pictures!!!


We've decided on a name for our fluffy gorgeous girl...

'Saffy'

It really suits her! She is the most loveliest cat, her temperemant is amazing! She doesn't flinch with the hoover, she lets me worm her without even a wriggle! My girls scoop her up and she lays there all gorgeous and lovingly...she's becoming quite a chatterbox too, it's like she's telling us to pick her up and give her a cuddle! She's like a little doll!!!! Here's a pic of her in my arms (yet again!)

I'm totally in love


----------



## chillminx

Aww what a pretty girl.  And with a lovely temperament to match by the sounds of things! Lucky, lucky you!


----------



## ZoeM

I remain utterly in love with the two you've kept, I think I would have kept those two myself! Love your boys big chunky paws :Kiss Well done on getting your little brood fantastic homes - what a great start in life you've given them


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Saffy

She's so soppy ❤


----------



## Marmitepepsi

Gorgeous 'Buffy '


----------



## Marmitepepsi

So, all the kittens have been rehomed, it hit us all when the last one went last week 'Tortie'...what a journey, it's been amazing. Looking forward to settling as a cat family of four now though!

Lula is now out & about again and is loving being outside...she never goes far and is always sat in garden relaxing! I don't have a cat flap so I call her in at night! Ez had her spay yesterday and is seeming ok so far bless her...she's desperate to get back out!

The vet said ideally wait till 5 months for Buffy & Saffy to be done as it's easier when they're a little bigger as their tubes and everything are a bit bigger! 


Right, I also need a bit of advice as Buffy has just started to wee on my bed!?!?!?!??? She did it once 3 weeks ago as I thought as a 'one off' but then has done it twice in the past 3 days and now I've caught her a couple of times just before she's about to do it! So I've put her on the litter tray and she's done it there!

Now a few weeks ago I tripped down the stairs and freaked Lula out as she squealed as I fell on her a bit, Buffy was half way though a number 2 and freaked out and did the rest on my bed...and the wee' s have been since then! Is it the scent and should I change all the bedding totally? (I've washed at 60degrees each time!)...but she never had accidents before! Also though, she's the only one who never covers up her poop in the litter tray! Also I was wondering if she's maybe a bit stressed at the other cats all going off!? Also remember she was the last one to wean by about 3 weeks and I had to feed her up on my lap for a while, so she does seem to be the one who doesn't quite grasp things like the others!

What would your advice be?


----------



## chillminx

Hi there  . If you are going to wait until they are 5 mths to have Buffy and Saffy spayed then you will have to be super careful about them not getting out of the house, as they will almost certainly try to do once they start calling. And when they see their mums allowed outside.

How many litter trays are you providing? 4 cats need a minimum of 5 litter trays. Spread them around the house, not grouped together and place them in quiet spots where the cats will have privacy. Near the stairs is not ideal as there will be a lot of human traffic in that area and noisy too.

Put the litter in the trays to a depth of at least 2.5 inches. It encourages usage.

As Buffy got very scared while in the middle of her toilet it will have made her associate the litter tray with fear.

If you have washed the bedding in bio laundry liquid at 60 degrees the smell should have gone. But if the urine went through to the mattress you have a problem. It is hard to get rid of the smell from a mattress. When you have cats, especially kittens, it is best to use prevention in the form of waterproof mattress covers on all the beds. (John Lewis has a selection, or Amazon). Mattresses are expensive to replace but sometimes there is no choice.

Try spongeing the mattress with a solution of Bio Tex stain remover. (available from Amazon). Then stand the mattress on its side to dry it. Do not use again until dry.

I advise shutting Buffy (and the others) out of the bedroom for now so the association with the bed and toilet can be broken. Hopefully if Buffy has some nice quiet places to go for toilet she will regain her confidence in the litter tray. Provide some open litter trays so the cats can see out all around them. It will instil confidence.

Feed her a wet food diet only, so her urine is increased in volume and more dilute. It will encourage her to pee more often, which is what you want.

If Buffy pees on the floor mop up the urine with paper towel and place it in the nearest litter tray. Same with any poo - place in the litter tray for a while.

If Buffy's problem persists you may need to confine her to one room for several weeks with litter trays, food, water etc, so she can re-learn to use the tray.


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## Purplecatlover

I don't really have much in the use of valuable information but Tesco also do a waterproof mattress cover (they saved my life) and for a double its £5 ish which is great. We have so many of these now haha! Hope the problem resolves! X


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## chillminx

That's a very good price Faye. Thanks for the info


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## Marmitepepsi

I'm a bit concerned!

Ezzy was spayed last Friday...

Yet she's showing signs of being in heat?!?!?! She's pummelling her back legs and meowing weirdly like she did when she was in season...

Her scars healing well as took her to the vet today for her nurse check and he did its healing really well...I mentioned that she seemed like she was in season and he said maybe it's residual hormones but to go in if it carries on...

She's doing it loads this eve with bottom in air and crouching along the ground...and rubbing herself around 


Has anyone else had this or should I take her to the vet?


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## carly87

It can happen if they've left some tissue behind. Some of my girls will have a half hearted single call if their spay was close to when they'd be coming back in again, but never more than one and never a screaming full blown call.


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## Lisa2701

Ceiling Kitty said:


> 'Flank' refers to flank spay - the incision is made in the side of the abdomen, not the midline.
> 
> Keyhole surgery doesn't exist for cats AFAIK because the standard surgical incision is pretty much keyhole size anyway.


I know this post is a few months old but I seen this and wanted to say that my vet in the uk (central Scotland) offer keyhole spaying for cats. It's an extra £50, not that that matters if it's worth doing but I'll be honest though, like you I felt that the usual incision was so small to start with that I didn't pay the extra for keyhole because I can't possibly imagine how much smaller they could get it.

Just wanted to wade in there and let you all know that it does indeed exist lol. X

Also wanted to add that I've just read this thread start to finish and wow what an amazing job you done with those babies. All of them are so beautiful and healthy looking. Thoroughly enjoyed reading through your journey with them x


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## Marmitepepsi

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh thank you so much! ...

Sometimes it not until someone says that, that I actually stop to think of the huge Journey that we've all been through here. It was hard at times and VERY expensive, but also I've learned so much and really feel I did my best by all the kittens and mummies! I feel bad that my little girlies had to have kittens at such a young age, but I do feel I made the complete most out of the situation and fully gave it every scrap of me that I could. It was awful timing in my life too as have rather a lot of not very nice things going on, but in a way these little beauties gave us a distraction! 

I'm in touch with all of the new owners and all the kittens are doing so well and are really well adjusted cats!!! None of them have had any accidents (apart from ironically from one of the ones we kept...he he)...but they're all really loving happy cats and look so healthy!

I also still sometimes can't believe I have 4 cats now ...

Lula, Saffy & Buffy all get on really well. Ezzy is the grumpy one who likes to go outside to get away from them all...but she's still soppy as anything with me and love she being cradled like a baby even though she's 16 months or so!

Lula has put on all her lost weight now and she seems so happy! She loves laying with Saffy & Buffy too! Ezzy I think is still settling down after the op, no more heat symptoms from her so phew, that's a relief! 

Buffy hasn't weed on the bed since I posted about it a few weeks ago! Also she's finally meowing! She didn't meow for ages!!! She's a funny old one is Buffy! She licks my arms, face, hands - you name it! She seems like she's very much the baby of all the kittens!!! She's getting there though!

Saffy is a big lovely bundle of fluff! She's funny as if anyone leaves their poop even slightly uncovered in the litter tray she wades in there and covers it up! Shes a chatterbox and really loves cuddles! 

Love them all so much and it's amazing all their different characters!

Saffy will look so funny when she's spayed as she's so fluffy it's going to take ages for it to grow back!

Buffy's still got her tabbyish type markings!?!?! I'm thinking they might stay now!?

Thanks so much to everyone on here, it's been such a massive support and I couldn't have done such a good job without all your wonderful advice and experience!

Feel blessed to have come across this forum!

Thank you everyone ❤✨❤


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## Marmitepepsi

Oh my gosh :-( ... Ezzy's just been mounted by a black cat (who im pretty sure is Buffy's Dad and this is next door but ones cat)

So, Ezzy's not been quite her normal self since the spay...she had that weird crouching along ground heat symptoms so I kept her in, then that stopped so I let her outside a few days later. However I noticed that she sometimes walks a little low on her back legs so was just scrutinising her walking for a while and she seems to do it sometimes but not all and runs ok, is eating and drinking ok. BUT....she's been a bit annoyed with all other cats and laying away from them all etc...

Then, just now the black cat was outside (and also saw a big huge fluffy sheep looking tom cat again yesterday that I hadn't seen for a while so I'm wondering if she's leaving her scent all round the garden!?)

But anyway, she ran outside and straight over to him and Laid on the floor and he jumped on her :-( ...I ran up and he didn't even go away...had to get Ezzy in...can't believe it & now I'm really worried about the fact the operation hasn't worked...it's been just over 3 weeks so I don't know wether to just keep her in for another few weeks and see how she is, or to take her back to the vet? I'm thinking if I take her to the vet that they'll just tell me to wait a little longer and keep an eye, she's not poorly but also she's not herself and seems a bit fed up!

Lula successfully chased mr black cat away, but he was still trying his luck as he's obv got a scent.
Also, does that mean that he's not been done? Or would even an intact male still react to a females scent?

Lula's been so happy and back to herself since her spay and Ezzy's the opposite.


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## Marmitepepsi

Mr black cat ...hanging around my garden now


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## QOTN

In my experience neutered girls do not show any signs of calling and are usually not attractive to entire boys. Having said that I have heard of studs who have a spayed girl for companion and try to mate them.

None of my girls ever had any ovarian tissue retained but I do know breeders whose girls have had to have more than one operation. You would have to ask your vet how they would establish that was the cause because you obviously don't want an unnecessary procedure.

By the way, neutered males can still mate calling girls even if they have never been studs. I used to be grateful for that when I was trying to postpone mating up my girls.


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## Marmitepepsi

Hi Everyone,
Thought I'd pop by and show you a few piccies of the kitties!
Saffy & Buffy are off to be spayed next week, I'm taking them to a different vet as I don't feel confident taking them to the one where they didn't do Ezzy properly. So I feel extra nervous about next week but I'm sure they'll be fine.
I saw tortie the other week at my friends house!!! I'm pretty certain she remembered me! They said she def did as she went all soppy when I held her like a baby on her back and stroked her tummy (what I do with all of them)...
Saffy & Buffy are amazing! Buffys more scardy and timid but loves cuddles and has such a great little personality, she's a gorgeous cat!
Saffys just such a toughie but soooo soppy with it! She's so confident and such a sturdy big fluffy cuddly cat! No one will mess with her when she's out & about and she's so quick when chasing toys that I think she's going to be one of those cats that could catch a huge bird or something! She's such a great all rounder! Always lying on her back and she gets INTO bed with me! She still cheekily tries to get milk off Lula sometimes but Lula puts her in her place!
Here's some pics!


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## Marmitepepsi

And Lu and Saffy having a mum & daughter body cuddle


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## lymorelynn

They look fantastic. You have done a great job with them all :Cat


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## Marmitepepsi

Ah thank you


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## chillminx

They look wonderful! Gorgeous cats, all of them.  Well done.


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## Marmitepepsi

Thank you 
Lovely to hear from such an experienced bunch of cat lovers :Cat


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## Gallifreyangirl

Well done they look good.


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## ZoeM

Stunning kitties xx


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