# Dogs behaving badly - channel 4



## Maxine67 (Mar 28, 2016)

Anyone planning to watch this tonight? I've not heard of Graeme Hall - is he any good? Tv Times describe him as "The Dogfather"!


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

He was on BBC breakfast yesterday I think, from what I saw he seemed sensible but I shall reserve judgement.


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

Depends if it clashes with crufts, might record it and watch it tomorrow.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2017)

Never heard of him but think I might watch it. For now I reserve judgement.


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## Maxine67 (Mar 28, 2016)

It's OTE="Phoenix Rising, post: 1064799392, member: 1436483"]Depends if it clashes with crufts, might record it and watch it tomorrow.[/QUOTE]
Its on before Crufts tonight at 6


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Just sitting down to watch it now.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Disappointed. Saw a bit with the poodle , he was corrected to say it was fear and then went on about being top dog and discipline. .


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

kimthecat said:


> Disappointed. Saw a bit with the poodle , he was corrected to say it was fear and then went on about being top dog and discipline. .


Yeah he's no Victoria Stilwell


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Just saw the intro and it showed some worrying behaviour by the trainer IMO.

Agree about the Poodle too - clearly fear based behaviour and he was shouted at and dominated 

He was staring down the Great Dane! OMG! 

Won't be putting this programme in the Planner!


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

He seems to have adopted the Cesar Milan "tsst" sound.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Jerking the frightened Great dane around . Poor dog !

FFS!!!

I am hoping there will be complaints to Channel 4 '

he is dragging dog training backwards , like the Cesar millan


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

He's not even got a very likeable persona about him tbh.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Poor rottie


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Apparently we need to show our dogs some authority! 

Nothing about lowering their fear 

I wonder how often he gets bitten?


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Lurcherlad said:


> Apparently we need to show our dogs some authority!
> 
> Nothing about lowering their fear
> 
> I wonder how often he gets bitten?


I thought that too. Next case looks interesting. I wonder where Holly would go if she let herself out the house.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Thing is, people love a bit of car crash TV, and actual behavioural modification won't make for entertaining viewing


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Sairy said:


> I thought that too. Next case looks interesting. I wonder where Holly would go if she let herself out the house.


Even the voice over is all about "authority" and "what will be tolerated".

No discussion as to why the dog is behaving that way. Lack of exercise, training, stimulation, SA?


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Does anyone else think that woman should put a better lock on her front door so the dog can't possibly open it?


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

I mean what's she going to do when she needs to go out? She can't possibly know that he won't let himself out.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

If any of you are on Twitter , please tweet your opinion.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Those two dogs, why tell them off for the fact that they clearly aren't comfortable around each other? Why not use positive distractions like tasty treats and walk the other way if things start hotting up?


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

I've just had to turn it over. I couldn't watch any more.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

JoanneF said:


> I've just had to turn it over. I couldn't watch any more.


I don't blame you tbh. Only reason I haven't is because the cat has the remote control and I can't be bothered to move to get it!


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Sairy said:


> Poor rottie


What did he do to it . I stopped watching after the Great Dane.


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

This last bit I feel sorry for the westie. It seems like second best in that household, his face fur is all matted where it hasn't been brushed often


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Sairy said:


> Those two dogs, why tell them off for the fact that they clearly aren't comfortable around each other? Why not use positive distractions like tasty treats and walk the other way if things start hotting up?


That's where I turned off. He was, in effect, punishing the dog for a fear reaction.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

kimthecat said:


> What did he do to it . I stopped watching after the Great Dane.


It was clearly in distress (his own dog) and on his last legs. He was just lying there looking like he was suffering


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@Sairy  I hope the RSPCA is watching !


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## shinra (Aug 9, 2013)

turned it off the minute he started doing the cesar milan psst sounds and telling the poodle off and saying she was rewarding his behaviour, purleaseee.
Doesn't suprise me though, channel 4 & 5 always show backwards dog training.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Googled this bloke and he charges £495 for a consult. Really :Facepalm


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

labradrk said:


> Googled this bloke and he charges £495 for a consult. Really :Facepalm


Wowser! The sad thing is that a lot of people will probably assume that because he charges so much he must be good.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

labradrk said:


> Googled this bloke and he charges £495 for a consult. Really :Facepalm


Does he have ANY credentials?


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Hes a CM worshipper! Sounded like a utter **** on BBC Breakfast yesterday!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I've recorded this but sounds like I may just press delete without bothering to watch - the last thing we need is another jumped up CM trainer teaching people to beat their chests and be the boss.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

It said something about the Dogfather being the last hope for the Great Dane owners Really ? 
There are so many decent behaviourists out there , did they even ask them ?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Unfortunately many reputable trainers and behaviourists turn down the opportunity to be on tv as it is such a poisoned chalice; ergo we end up with thosewho have few or no credible credentials.

Sad.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Couldn't watch it as we don't have Channel 4 in Hungary, but did learn earlier in the week, THAT MAN, will be holding a show on dog training in Budapest in two weeks time .... horror of horror!


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

For those wondering if he has been bitten before, apparently he has by a German Shepherd as soon as he went into someone's house. I wonder if he stared it out like he did with the great dane.

http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/...ne-chomp-put-me-in-hospital-but-i-didnt-quit/


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

JoanneF said:


> I've just had to turn it over. I couldn't watch any more.


Me too. It's a bit too "the toothy one" and "Barbara Woodhouse" for me 

A good opportunity wasted to actually educate the general dog owning public about a dog's needs for kind, positive training, exercise and stimulation and clear boundaries together with explaining their body language.

To me, the issues have just been masked and smothered, rather than dealt with.

"Bark and lunge at that dog and I will shout and yank your head around" - you choose! unch


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Lurcherlad said:


> Me too. It's a bit too "the toothy one" and "Barbara Woodhouse" for me
> 
> A good opportunity wasted to actually educate the general dog owning public about a dog's needs for kind, positive training, exercise and stimulation and clear boundaries together with explaining their body language.
> 
> ...


I wonder if he would use the same tactic with a child who was frightened. "Don't you dare cry or scream because you're scared of the dark! Do so and you will get a smack!"


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Sairy said:


> I wonder if he would use the same tactic with a child who was frightened. "Don't you dare cry or scream because you're scared of the dark! Do so and you will get a smack!"


Precisely!

I don't understand why people can't see the analogy 

It's not just " bad training", to me it is actually cruel.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Lurcherlad said:


> "Bark and lunge at that dog and I will shout and yank your head around"


I was looking for a way to describe his methods and you hit it spot on 

As soon as he labelled the anxious poodle as wanting to be top dog and held a stare with the untrained Great Dane he kind of gave us an idea of how he trains. And yes, we had the trademark Tss sound. Funniest moment for me though was him with the postulating Bulldog ...I'll take it he said and tightening the lead he proceeded to shout NO whilst pointing his finger at it (and tugging fiercely at it's lead of course) all to no effect. The dog continued to bark and dance around him. Oh he said ..it might take a bit longer than i expected.

A missed opportunity to move away from 'you have to be the boss' school of training. Rather old fashioned in it's approach. Will appeal to those wanting a quick fix. Akin to training with a rolled up newspaper.

J


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Lurcherlad said:


> Precisely!
> 
> I don't understand why people can't see the analogy
> 
> It's not just " bad training", to me it is actually cruel.


I suffer with anxiety and panic attacks. I remember my dad losing patience with me when I was about 13 because I was so anxious and he couldn't really understand it. I can safely say that it made matters worse and added to my stress levels.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

What got me as well is that he thought he had achieved a result at the end with those two dogs who didn't like each other. How did he think he had achieved a result? Because now they just weren't looking at each other. So his tactic had lead to them both being forced to shut down and pretend that the other wasn't there. Great training!


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## Maxine67 (Mar 28, 2016)

Sairy said:


> I wonder if he would use the same tactic with a child who was frightened. "Don't you dare cry or scream because you're scared of the dark! Do so and you will get a smack!"


Exactly what I said while watching him with the Great Dane!


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## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

I watched a little bit, turned it off when I saw him yanking the poor Danes halter


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## applecrumlin (Mar 8, 2015)

I remember a thread on here some months ago, where someone had seen a call-out for dogs to take part in a new tv programme. The general consensus on here was caution; not enough info was being given about the trainer to be used, or their methods. 
Sounds like this was the programme? The original flyer even had a finger pointing at a bulldog, although that was probably a posed shot and only a coincidence that the scenario has now actually occurred.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

applecrumlin said:


> I remember a thread on here some months ago, where someone had seen a call-out for dogs to take part in a new tv programme. The general consensus on here was caution; not enough info was being given about the trainer to be used, or their methods.
> Sounds like this was the programme? The original flyer even had a finger pointing at a bulldog, although that was probably a posed shot and only a coincidence that the scenario has now actually occurred.


That crossed my mind too.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

applecrumlin said:


> I remember a thread on here some months ago, where someone had seen a call-out for dogs to take part in a new tv programme. The general consensus on here was caution; not enough info was being given about the trainer to be used, or their methods.
> Sounds like this was the programme? The original flyer even had a finger pointing at a bulldog, although that was probably a posed shot and only a coincidence that the scenario has now actually occurred.


This picture ... http://www.wibn.co.uk/calling-all-dog-owners-a-new-channel-4-show-wants-to-help-you/ 

And yes, they posted on here last year i remember......but wouldn't name the trainer.

J


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## applecrumlin (Mar 8, 2015)

Yep, definitely the programme;
Note the tagline "any dog, any age, any problem".

I remember at the time being convinced that smokeybear was the trainer - she was just urging a more open mind to the possibility of the trainer being OK, but it came across as if she had inside information .


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## elmthesofties (Aug 8, 2011)

shinra said:


> turned it off the minute he started doing the cesar milan psst sounds and telling the poodle off and saying she was rewarding his behaviour, purleaseee.


Genuine question, what was wrong about him saying she was rewarding his behaviour? I didn't like the man at all, but this was one of the few things that didn't strike up an issue with me.


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## kare (Sep 8, 2014)

I spent a short period of time yelling at the TV about this programme before turning over

I turned over after the headcollar tugging. Incoming damage but hey who needs a thyroid? Im sure replacement treatment in that size dog is cheap...right?


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

elmthesofties said:


> Genuine question, what was wrong about him saying she was rewarding his behaviour? I didn't like the man at all, but this was one of the few things that didn't strike up an issue with me.


If I remember rightly, it was re her continuing to cuddle the dog whilst he was growling ....which he said was rewarding the dogs behaviour ...but having identified that in fact the dog was anxious around the boyfriend the reward comment become a little contentious, as you can not reward and reinforce anxiety as it is physiological response.

J


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

i only caught the last bit with the westie and the bulldog
i just sat there open mouthed and eyes a bug
really must not watch theseprogrammes


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

applecrumlin said:


> Yep, definitely the programme;
> Note the tagline "any dog, any age, any problem".
> 
> I remember at the time being convinced that smokeybear was the trainer - she was just urging a more open mind to the possibility of the trainer being OK, but it came across as if she had inside information .


Yes I did and the particular programme to which you refer was not this one but one that featured an ethical trainer.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2017)

smokeybear said:


> Yes I did and the particular programme to which you refer was not this one but one that featured an ethical trainer.


Was that the one with Nando Brown? Or the gal who works with him? I can't remember....


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Was that the one with Nando Brown? Or the gal who works with him? I can't remember....


Yes his girlfriend Jo Rosie Haffendon, mother of their child.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I was looking forward to watching it, not sure if I shall now.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2017)

smokeybear said:


> Yes his girlfriend Jo Rosie Haffendon, mother of their child.


Has that show aired yet?
I sure wish mainstream TV would get on board with modern, humane training. This CM/Dogfather BS is beyond old now...


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Has that show aired yet?
> I sure wish mainstream TV would get on board with modern, humane training. This CM/Dogfather BS is beyond old now...


Yes it has; and there are a few others in the pipeline. Teaching dogs to fly was a brilliant programme with some superb trainers.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2017)

smokeybear said:


> Yes it has; and there are a few others in the pipeline. Teaching dogs to fly was a brilliant programme with some superb trainers.


Was it in the UK only?
I haven't seen teaching dogs to fly or Jo's show. But then I don't watch TV either these days so unless someone mentioned it I wouldn't have known anyway LOL


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

petition !

https://www.change.org/p/channel-4-...utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Done


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Signed and shared on FB. I've also tweeted Channel 4. 

I'm promoting great dog trainers too and would like to recommend Wuff Training in Cambridge and Sian Ryan's Developing Dogs.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

MollySmith said:


> I've also tweeted Channel 4.


How do you do that please? I have a twitter account that I never use, so I'm not really familiar with how to tweet a specific person / organisation


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Signed


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

JoanneF said:


> How do you do that please? I have a twitter account that I never use, so I'm not really familiar with how to tweet a specific person / organisation


No problem! If you type in @Channel4 that will bring up their account so they know you've tweeted them directly and anyone else who has contacted then can see it too, and the hash tag is #dogsbehavingbadly. So you could write this sort of thing:

@Channel4 #*DogsBehavingBadly* your comment in under 140 characters 

Does that make sense? Shout it not!


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Thank you for explaining, it makes perfect sense. I have accessed my Twitter account for the first time in years to do this


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Why on earth does tv employ these people, it baffles me. The guy says he was a factory supervisor who didn't own a dog until he was in his 40s, then took up dog training, because a mate said he was good with people. He's got himself some pseudo qualifications from the internet. 'Pay £75 and tell us you've trained more than 100 dogs and you're a master'. Now he claims to having trained 4000 dogs when he only started out in 2008. That's a lot of dogs for someone with no qualifications and who started with no training. The experts here would choke on their coffee if they watched his video where he simplifies a page on operant conditioning from wiki. 

I watched one of the other 'masters' teaching a dog to roll up a mat. She used a clicker. The dog had no idea what the clicker was and she corrected the dog verbally and with tugs on the collar, but she's using a clicker, so that must be ok then. Honestly, aren't there enough genuine dog trainers with genuine qualifications out there for them to pick one of those?

Oh and one of his other videos says to use the same methods on people to get them to do what you want. He must go to those funny clubs I hear about and use 50 shades as his reference. :Mooning


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## Westie Mum (Feb 5, 2015)

This horrid man doesn't live very far away from me and one of his side kicks runs one of the local puppy classes  and advertises as a dog walker and home boarder


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

https://www.change.org/p/channel-4-...s-unscientific-outdated-and-unethical-methods

Another petition, unfortunately the other one linked has a misspelling so it doesn't come up in a search. It also appears that the programme was a one off anyway?


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## Lolapop87 (Feb 3, 2017)

I agree with you all,the way he was with dogs and what he was saying was shocking.i also turned over after seeing him with the Great Dane


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## applecrumlin (Mar 8, 2015)

Having nothing better to do, I found JoanneF's original thread on this programme, it was started on July 29th in dog training and behaviour (Sorry I don't know how to create a link).
Those who didn't trust the advance publicity, give yourselves a pat on the back!


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Some people have suggested it's not the same programme but -

http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/if-anyone-had-thought-of-using-the-anonymous-tv-trainer.431118/


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## applecrumlin (Mar 8, 2015)

Yes...."the particular programme to which (I) refer" was indeed this one...


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Elles said:


> It also appears that the programme was a one off anyway?


 I hope it stays that way!


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## Maxine67 (Mar 28, 2016)

kimthecat said:


> I hope it stays that way!


"Possibly leading to a series" - hopefully the amount of complaints will tell them we don't want (or need!) a series like that!


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> I hope it stays that way!


Yes, but unfortunately, enough owners will have seen it to add to their dogs' misery 

Hopefully, the uproar will be sufficiently loud enough to make them reconsider his methods.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Hopefully it doesn't lead to a series then. I admit I didn't watch it. I looked him up first to see whether my blood pressure would cope and decided it wouldn't. Petforumers confirmed. I don't want to watch a tv programme with dogs being hauled about and frightened, or add to the viewing figures.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Elles said:


> https://www.change.org/p/channel-4-...s-unscientific-outdated-and-unethical-methods
> 
> Another petition, unfortunately the other one linked has a misspelling so it doesn't come up in a search. It also appears that the programme was a one off anyway?


Signed.

The Great Dane's owners live in the next town over for me, so, in theory, I could encounter them on a walk.  I think I'd be just as scared meet in them now, than before the consultation. :Wideyed


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Didn't think much of him, making sounds the same as Victoria to get attention and that where is finishes the man is an idiot. A short pull on the collar of a Great Dane will not hurt after all they are like strong small horses, but he is a smug man and isn't that good. Lets hope that's the last we see of him.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

from twitter , a response to an email sent to Channel 4


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2017)

Happy Paws said:


> Didn't think much of him, making sounds the same as Victoria to get attention and that where is finishes the man is an idiot. A short pull on the collar of a Great Dane will not hurt after all they are like strong small horses, but he is a smug man and isn't that good. Lets hope that's the last we see of him.


Is there a video somewhere I can watch? Obviously I didn't get to see the program.

Danes are indeed large, strong dogs, and yup, a short tug is not likely to do much damage, it's also very likely to be 100% ineffective and cause the dog to ignore leash pressure even more. 
The thing is, if a dane wants to do something, no amount of physical force is going to prevent it. Therefore you really have to develop cooperation with a dog this size, and manhandling them with leash corrections isn't going to ingratiate you to that....

That said, I hate the premise that just because a dog is big it's okay to use force. Danes are sentient creatures. They're also prone to issues like wobbler's and thyroid disease, both of which would not be helped by continued irritation of the neck and neck structures.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

I googled the qualification - I think someone may have mentioned earlier but all he had to do was confirm he had trained x number of dogs and pay £75. Pity Channel 4 didn't check him out more thoroughly. @ouesi, the Dane was only one of the dogs he showed, admittedly I didn't watch the whole thing (couldn't bear to, I was getting so cross) but never once did he mention the possible underlying cause of the behaviours. So while the Dane treatment might not have physically damaged the dog, there was nothing helpful in what he did to it.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Is there a video somewhere I can watch? Obviously I didn't get to see the program.
> 
> Danes are indeed large, strong dogs, and yup, a short tug is not likely to do much damage, it's also very likely to be 100% ineffective and cause the dog to ignore leash pressure even more.
> The thing is, if a dane wants to do something, no amount of physical force is going to prevent it. Therefore you really have to develop cooperation with a dog this size, and manhandling them with leash corrections isn't going to ingratiate you to that....
> ...


I can't find any clips, just the full episode on Channel 4.
I decided to watch it to see what the fuss was over...the guy very clearly has zero knowledge of dog behaviour..I thought he was doing OK when he pointed out the poodle was fearful, but then he ruined it with his "rewarding the fear" comment 

He was scared of the dane, but I think his ego stopped him from backing down - thankfully the dane did back down, which of course gave Graeme the validation for his staring contest -sigh-
I won't want to be in the area once that dane gets fed up of the constant tugging on his nose though!

I wouldn't put him in the same box as CM personally...They are both just as clueless as one another, but I didn't get the bully boy vibe from him.
I think people are complaining about the wrong things...the handling wasn't bad enough to get the program pulled BUT if enough people talked about the lack of scientific knowledge, the lack of learning theory knowledge...well just the lack of facts full stop. Then maybe someone might stop ant think before they film the next "have-a-go trainer"

*general comment comming up:
In the mean time people should stop giving this fool the media attention he desires and start shouting about all the good, ethical, educated and experienced trainers and behaviourists...Get their names out there so the general public can see they have more choices


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> "
> 
> *general comment comming up:
> In the mean time people should stop giving this foll the media attention he desires and start shouting about all the good, ethical, educated and experienced trainers and behaviourists...Get their names out there so the general public can see they have more choices


Good point. I don't watch the BBC One Show but caught the second part of a report of a behaviourist also working with a Great Dane. She spoke about the subtle signals like tension in the ears, yawning etc and how I important it was to really know the dog so you could see when he was getting stressed, and taking him away from the stressor - I don't know who she was but it was good to see the better side of dog training / behaviour work.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, labradrk:

Googled this bloke and he charges £495 for a consult. Really :Facepalm

/QUOTE
.
.
gee, i've obviously been left behind in the Great Price War over b-mod fees. :Hilarious Where does he live? -- Trump Tower, Manhattan, NYC?!
.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE,

... Graeme Hall is a *Master Trainer *with the *Guild of Dog Trainers ...*

/QUOTE
.
.
shades of Stan the Man[wich]... ! - :Hilarious 
.
*Guild of Dog Trainers - Training Britain's Pet Dogs and Inspiring Dog ...*
www.godt.org.uk/
Training Britain's Pet Dogs and Inspiring Dog Owners to Learn.

*Search Results*
The easiest way to search for a dog ... for more results you ...

*Education Courses*
Professional Education Courses ... have a number of courses in ...

*Join the Guild of Dog Trainers*
Join The Guild of Dog Trainers. Sue Williams, the CEO explains ...

*GoDT Rules and Regulations*
GoDT Rules and Regulations. Code of Practice & Terms and ...

More results from godt.org.uk »

*The Guild of Dog Trainers (GoDT) | Facebook*
https://www.facebook.com/GuildOfDogTrainers/
The Guild of Dog Trainers (GoDT). 1353 likes · 112 talking about this. 
Dog Training Organisation. GoDT.org.uk.

*Guild of Dog Trainers welcomes you - Our Dogs*
https://www.ourdogs.co.uk/News/2008/Apr2008/News250408/guild.htm
The Guild of Dog Trainers (GODT) has a vision to be the leading professional body for Dog Trainers in the UK, and is on course to achieving that success which ...
.
*Guild of Dog Trainers - Cotswold Pet Services*
www.cotswoldpetservices.co.uk/keith%20fallon
Keith Fallon, Master Trainer with the Guild of Dog Trainers. ... 01732 669 342
Make an Enquiry: [email protected] ... 
I - Intelligent balanced dog training: say no as well as yes, make training fun, have time together and time ...
.
.
Last but not *least* - "how to become a Master Trainer with the GoDT!" - ooohh! :Woot
http://www.cidbt.org.uk/certificationincanineprofessionalinstruction.html
.
recognized by the [UK] Kennel Club as "a Kennel Club Preferred Educational Provider ", wowser! -  The mind boggles.
.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
cost for the 3 required modules: 485 pounds, 495 pounds, & 595, respectively. There are prerequisites, too - such as HANDLING SKILLS.
.
.
*Very Important Bits* under the 'GoDT rules' -
.
_* U can't criticize "other professionals" - such as Brad Prattison, Seizure Millon, etc._
_._
_* Membership can be revoked at any time, without any reason given._
_._
_* All GoDT communications with all members are confidential &_ *cannot be shared with anyone, w/o prior specific permit from the GoDT* - a gag order. 
.
.
the "Aussie Way" dog-training franchises here in the USA & around the world, *Bark Bluster,* also have a gag-order on discussing techniques, tools, etc; so does _*"Sit Means S#it", *_the shock-collar franchise-training sales company. :Shifty Hmmm. Seems like all the training organizations that i regard as shady, less-than-ethical, focused on profit, short on actual credentials, ALL have gag-orders on their members, their franchisees, or their customers - & some [Bark Bluster] on all parties.
.
.
My neighbor & friend in Va Beach, whose soft, slightly shy puppy was so badly & baldly mishandled by a BB franchisee, actually got a partial refund after her husband had a loud, more than 1-hour long argument with the national headquarters rep by phone.  But she couldn't talk to me about what they'd done to him, nor any other details - the company reserved the right to demand the settlement back, if she talked about their training, her or her hubby's dissatisfaction, or the problems it caused in their dog.
.
Luckily, i could SEE what effect it had on her dog - & we just reverse-engineered the damage.  Teddy was almost his former self, in 6 more weeks of daily walks & work.
.
.
.
.


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

ouesi said:


> Is there a video somewhere I can watch? Obviously I didn't get to see the program.
> 
> Danes are indeed large, strong dogs, and yup, a short tug is not likely to do much damage, it's also very likely to be 100% ineffective and cause the dog to ignore leash pressure even more.
> The thing is, if a dane wants to do something, no amount of physical force is going to prevent it. Therefore you really have to develop cooperation with a dog this size, and manhandling them with leash corrections isn't going to ingratiate you to that....
> ...


He didn't really use force it was just a quick sharp flick really, the dog was on a half check and the chain just rattled to get is attention.


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

JoanneF said:


> Some people have suggested it's not the same programme but -
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/if-anyone-had-thought-of-using-the-anonymous-tv-trainer.431118/


The production company asking for owners with problem dogs to contact them, Liberty Bell, was the same production company that made ` Dogs behaving badly`
A coincident maybe? probably not!!


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I gave in and watched it on catch up. 

It made me think of 'Whose Line is it Anyway' if the challenge was to play Cesar Millan in the manner of Austin Powers. I kept waiting for him to say 'Yeah Baby' with a slight northern twang. A bit cringeworthy, not as vicious or egotistical as Cesar Millan can be, but the same techniques and interpretations, applied in a milder way, but still with many sharp lead tugs, tsssts, NOs, good boys and arm and body blocks. At the start he pretty much said he does his own thing, not something to keep other professionals happy and that said a lot. 

Quick, old fashioned fixes through corrections/suppression. Lets hope the dogs stay suppressed and helpless for the owners' sake, especially the last 2, where they had toddler children. All in all not something that really made my blood boil, more something that made me cringe. We've seen it all before. About 30 years ago when trainers stopped tugging on choke chains and started tugging on haltis and slip leads instead. :Shamefullyembarrased He appears to have made a lot of money from it, no doubt he'll go on and make a lot more.

A shame LfL and Ouesi can't view it. I'd like to be a fly on the wall, I think they'd both need a bucket. :Hilarious


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

A more measured response which has got lost amongs all the hysteria and "disgusted from Tunbrdge Wells" https://www.facebook.com/GlasgowDogTrainer/?fref=ts


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

3dogs2cats said:


> The production company asking for owners with problem dogs to contact them, Liberty Bell, was the same production company that made ` Dogs behaving badly`
> A coincident maybe? probably not!!


Good catch, I didn't see that!


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> A more measured response which has got lost amongs all the hysteria and "disgusted from Tunbrdge Wells" https://www.facebook.com/GlasgowDogTrainer/?fref=ts


I saw this the other day - just love him!


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## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

Happy Paws said:


> He didn't really use force it was just a quick sharp flick really, the dog was on a half check and the chain just rattled to get is attention.


He was yanking on the danes headcollar. Head collars are meant to guide the head not be yanked for corrections


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2017)

Happy Paws said:


> He didn't really use force it was just a quick sharp flick really, the dog was on a *half check* and the chain just rattled to get is attention.





Apollo2012 said:


> He was yanking on the danes *headcollar*. Head collars are meant to guide the head not be yanked for corrections


Was it a half check or a head collar? LOL this is where I shouldn't even be commenting at all without having seen any of the program.

Okay, making a general statement: Danes are a breed prone to wobbler's and other cervical issues. I would never put one of my own danes in a head collar because of the risk of damage to their neck. Danes have a longer neck than many breeds and it's just not worth it to me to risk any injury there.

That said, yep, danes are very big dogs and if the owner is struggling to control the dog, I can see why a trainer might suggest a head collar for an added layer or safety while the dog is being trained. 
I'll also say, if the dog is determined, the head collar ain't gonna stop him/her. This past weekend I saw a gal with a short, squat pitbull type dog on a prong collar, and that dog was dragging her all over the place, and he probably weighed 30 pounds tops. Equipment is only as good as the training that goes with it.

As for my comment about dog's size determining how the dog is trained, I still stand by that. Just because a dog is bigger than average, or even the size of a miniature horse, doesn't mean you have to train with force - no matter how mild the degree of force. 
Suzanne Clothier has a fantastic short little article on size and getting cooperation out of your dog. Well worth a read IMO:
http://suzanneclothier.com/how-much-does-your-dogs-cooperation-weigh


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Was it a half check or a head collar?


It was a head collar attached to a standard flat collar.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

StormyThai said:


> It was a head collar attached to a *standard flat collar.*


It was a half check you could see and hear the chain.


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

This was the dog before he helped @ouesi 



 I shall see if I can find him 'training' it


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## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Was it a half check or a head collar?


The lead was attached to a head collar, which was attached to another collar not that the other collar matters when the headcollar was taking force of the corrections.

Edit to add: Just rewatched a bit at the beginning, the dane was on a head collar, also had a flat collar on that was attached to collar


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> Didn't think much of him, making sounds the same as Victoria to get attention and that where is finishes the man is an idiot. A short pull on the collar of a Great Dane will not hurt after all they are like strong small horses, but he is a smug man and isn't that good. Lets hope that's the last we see of him.


When he walked the dog I thought the lead was attached to a head collar though and he did it more than once.? 

ETA You have to sign up and log in to watch it on ch 4 catch up . Im not doing that .


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

It looked like one of these type of designs would you say guys?


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2017)

Apollo2012 said:


> The lead was attached to a head collar, which was attached to another collar not that the other collar matters when the headcollar was taking force of the corrections.


Correct. Doesn't matter if there is a flat, check, or whatever collar if the leash is attached to the head collar. 
And also correct that head collars are most definitely NOT meant to be used for corrections, yanks, jerks etc. Very dangerous.

Still trying to get the video @MontyMaude posted to play, thanks for posting.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I watched on tv catch up. I went to look at it on the computer and saw you need to sign up, which I'm not doing either.

The collar the headcollar was attached to was, I think, a half check with a chain. It certainly had a chain on it. The owner needed something on the dog that meant she could hold the dog in an emergency imo, as I'm not a dog trainer and don't have Great Danes I won't suggest what, but the dogfather was using this as a training tool to correct the dog. It was a process. Short, sharp, tugs on it, until the dog responded to the chain rattle, having learned what comes next. It's a common enough technique.

I think the promotion video with the lady being dragged along the floor only shows the dog in a normal collar and in a 'before' situation. Like CM they manipulated the situations to demonstrate how bad the dogs were.

This video talk by him although it doesn't show any dogs, does show how he thinks. If you watch from about 4.40 he talks about the science of learning.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2017)

Okay, just watched the video. Obviously just a short clip, not much to judge really.
I wouldn't say the dog is "dragging" her. He is running, but so is she, and when she falls and let's go, he veers off the road and stops. I mean, basic leash manners... The bread and butter of most pet dog trainers. Nothing earth shattering here. And yeah, based on the short clip, it does look awfully staged...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
Objection:
stating that dogs have thoughts & emotions is not anthropomorphic projection of HUMAN traits; we know, & have known for decades, that dogs have both thoughts AND emotions - they lack any words to express them, but they obv think & feel. We have direct observation of dog's brain activity & blood flow, during thought & emotional response - the areas of heightened activity are directly analogous to human brains' activity, in similar circs.
.
.
QUOTE from the video,
_"If *purely positive* WORKED, we'd have police *armed with flowers & chocolate* hiding behind every bush... waiting for law-abiding [behavior, to reward it]."
._
*FALSE ANALOGY - *
cops work not on ANTICIPATED behavior, but on 'crimes committed'. Police are post-facto -- *trainers*, OTOH, by simply making the desired behavior easier than the un-desired actions, can tip the odds & goof-proof the process. // Cops don't know who will commit a crime, nor what crime will be committed, BEFORE the event is a fact, & thus it's already history.
.
*"purely positive" *is also a contemptuous term used by traditional AKA punitive / 'correcting' trainers, to belittle *positive reinforcement [R+ or pos-R]* - & also as a deliberately-confusing riff on the 'positive punishment' // PP quadrant of outcomes, where *punishment* [an aversive] is *added* [*positive*] to the scenario, thus discouraging the undesired prior behavior - or that's the hypothesis.
.
.
If U've ever seen a dog hauling their handler along via a prong-collar as if the dog was a tugboat & their handler a barge under tow, U know that poor use of an aversive results in *desensitization* to the unpleasant stimulus [the prong, choke-chain / infinite-slip nylon collar, shock, etc]. This leads to ESCALATION of the aversive - jerk harder, pull more, raise the intensity or duration of the shock, etc.
.
*exclusively Pos-R does indeed work*, & very well - nobody punishes a tiger who's learning to allow full-body exams or blood draws without GA / dangerous sedation, & to comply with cues to perform specific behaviors -- yet they learn it well & easily.
Every species it's ever been tried with has successfully learnt, using Pos-R only. Humans LIKE to punish - we believe in it, we feel it's needed, so we punish. 
.
.
.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

yep, he himself is an example of pos-R in practice. Rewarded by his perception of the dogs' behaviour when he punishes them, the owners' smiles, the recognition and the money. Any 'corrections' to his behaviour are ignored and he carries on doggedly determined. Even a bite from a dog and a visit to er doesn't deter him. The rewards are too great, he's hit the jackpot. 

Bearing in mind he's only been doing this for 8 years and has no real training or qualifications, it's been little effort for great reward. I'm jealous.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2017)

Happy Paws said:


> He didn't really use force it was just a quick sharp flick really, the dog was on a half check and the chain just rattled to get is attention.


I've heard this before, the noise of the chain gets the dog's attention. But, if you're next to the dog (as one would assume if the dog is on leash), what's wrong with using your voice to get the dog's attention? Or a kissy noise? I don't get the need for a chain rattling to get the dog to pay attention. Unless of course the dog is completely desensitized to their owner's voice, which if the case, should probably be dealt with....

JMO, but I think the majority of leash manners issues come from the dog not knowing what to do instead of pulling. Too many people focus on *not* pulling which is in itself a non behavior. Doesn't pass the dead dog test (can a dead dog do it? Yup, a dead dog can *not* pull). What we need to teach is what to do when you hit the end of the leash, use the sensation of the leash tightening as a cue to do something - ideally, give in to leash pressure. Once the dog understands what to do when they feel the leash get tight, and are sufficiently motivated to do it, the pulling goes away on its own.

Oppositional reflex is a powerful reflex. Our old Dane who came to us as a feral for who knows how long was a poster child for oppositional reflex. He just could not get past it. He wasn't pulling to get anywhere, he would just feel the pressure on the collar or harness and lean in to it. It's very possible he had never worn a leash and collar until we got him, and by then he was an old man. With him we ended up taking an unconventional approach, but that it worked was pretty telling.

In a nutshell, we basically let go of the leash when he started pulling, and turned around and went the other way. This was in safe areas obviously, and with a dog who was already very motivated to stay with us.
He would walk on a few steps, realize we had changed direction, and run up to us to catch up. Very quickly he started associating the feel of the leash getting tight with the leash dropping and us "leaving". From there he quickly learned to turn and check in when he hit the end of the leash. Once we had that, we rewarded the check in and built it up to returning to our side. Done. No leash corrections, no rattling chains, no special equipment... Just straight forward consequential training.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Every time the dog pulled her he went to the bin. Even in the after which you can't see and which maybe people missed. That dog was focussed on that bin. I'm wondering if they used the bin to get him to pull her for the before shots. The more I look at it, the more I'm convinced they did.

I too felt very sad for the little Westie. The older dog (I think they said he was 14?) pushed out and locked on the stairs, his owner admitting that she didn't walk him, while the new, young dog that he was really frightened of, took his place with the family.  Poor little chap.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Was it a half check or a head collar? LOL this is where I shouldn't even be commenting at all without having seen any of the program.
> 
> Okay, making a general statement: Danes are a breed prone to wobbler's and other cervical issues. I would never put one of my own danes in a head collar because of the risk of damage to their neck. Danes have a longer neck than many breeds and it's just not worth it to me to risk any injury there.
> 
> ...


It was a head collar. A Dogmatic as far as I could see.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I've looked more closely and although he does talk about a dog hearing the *****, the collar is a flat collar, not a half check. There's no chain, it's just the clips chinking.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

This is him, if it works.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Found it. It's called a Big Ed headcollar.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
huh - She's using one helluva heavy leash! - 
IME, it's ridiculous overkill, attached to a headcollar.  The weight hangs on the dog's foreface, & makes the dog dislike the halter. A lightweight 6-ft standard nylon webbing leash with an ordinary spring clip is plenty; a 1/2-inch wide veg-tanned harness leather leash, also 6-ft long, would also be fine, even on a Giant breed, SO LONG AS U are using a headcollar.
.
.








.
Headcollars take the strength of the dog's torso & forelegs out of the equation - where the nose goes, the body must follow, & it takes very little work [as in physics, literally meaning how much energy is used] to gently turn the dog's head or to control their eye-gaze, POV, & / or restrain them, while using a head-halter.
.
Keep the hands __Low___ & move them to one side, about the level of pants' pockets, or simply stop, both hands at one hip, on the OFF side to the dog --- the dog must stop, & if U step backward a few times, they must U-turn to face U. No brute force, no sudden jerks are needed, just a gentle sustained tension.  E-z peasy!
.
.
.


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## Biffo (Mar 14, 2016)

I've just watched this on download, I can see why it will appeal. Fast fixes for people that haven't trained their dogs. The Westie is just so sad, shoved out for the bulldog.


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## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> huh - She's using one helluva heavy leash! -
> IME, it's ridiculous overkill, attached to a headcollar.  The weight hangs on the dog's foreface, & makes the dog dislike the halter. A lightweight 6-ft standard nylon webbing leash with an ordinary spring clip is plenty; a 1/2-inch wide veg-tanned harness leather leash, also 6-ft long, would also be fine, even on a Giant breed, SO LONG AS U are using a headcollar.
> .


Looks like a halti lead to me. They aren't heavy at all. I use one for Apollo, both on his collar now and on his head collar when he had one


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

It's a Halti lead and they are very lightweight.......


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, labradrk:

It's a Halti lead and they are very lightweight...

/QUOTE
.
.
What's it made of? // Why so thick? - It looks heavy, b/c it's thick thru. 
thanks for any info - haven't seen a Halti lead, I just use the various headcollars with an ordinary leash; my preference is a Gentle Leader, personally, but i've used Haltis - also made my own headcollar, from small-diameter climbing rope [round].
.
.
.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, labradrk:
> 
> It's a Halti lead and they are very lightweight...
> 
> ...


Not sure, some sort of light fabric/nylon. But it is really light, honest


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
thanks, Labradrk - 
I went to Amazon & looked up Halti training lead, they don't even say what the material is *there*; however, i found one i like even better! - 
it says it can be up to 10-ft long, but it weighs only 5.6 ounces.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00OEOVZES/
.
.
.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Looks like cushion web. I have horsey headcollars and lunge lines made from it and a couple of dog leads.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Looks like CH4 dumped it and its been picked up by Ch 5 as a series . I despair.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

kimthecat said:


> Looks like CH4 dumped it and its been picked up by Ch 5 as a series . I despair.


Is it the same trainer?
I wonder if his methods have evolved with the times?
A couple of trainers i follow on FB admit to using "old fashioned" methods but have changed as their knowledge improved. ( I admire their honesty) 
Just wondering if it's worth giving this series a chance


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Fleur said:


> Is it the same trainer?
> I wonder if his methods have evolved with the times?
> A couple of trainers i follow on FB admit to using "old fashioned" methods but have changed as their knowledge improved. ( I admire their honesty)
> Just wondering if it's worth giving this series a chance


oops sorry , forgot to name him . yes its Graeme Hall 

I hope so . I'll have to watch it and see. he's done radio and TV interviews and is well known apparently .


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

What day/time is it/was it on? Sounds like a bad trainer but I've never seen it.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2019)

His methods found all for show. "I will impress you with my big control movements and you will pay me money!!"



Lurcherlad said:


> Apparently we need to show our dogs some authority!
> 
> Nothing about lowering their fear
> 
> I wonder how often he gets bitten?


I watched some Ceser for the first time in years the other day. Decades. And since owning a dog. I can't believe how much that man gets bitten! He seems to think it's okay.

I think my ex's dad must love a bit of CM. He hits his dogs as a correction and I bloody hate it. Especially as my children go round there. One day, his tank of a bulldog will bite him in response and he'll be able to do eff all about it.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Burrowzig said:


> What day/time is it/was it on? Sounds like a bad trainer but I've never seen it.


Next Tuesday at 8pm , 15th Jan . Perhaps best to start a new thread then .


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Udon said:


> I watched some Ceser for the first time in years the other day. Decades. And since owning a dog. I can't believe how much that man gets bitten! He seems to think it's okay


CM getting bitten is OK with me. The more, the better.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

All i can remember of the first series is a woman with a huge dog that pulled. I can't even remember the breed or colour of dog, only that it was giant.

And the woman was shown trying to walk the dog in a park. First you saw the dog charging along, appearing into shot from RHS of my tv screen and next the poor owner was practically air borne as she flew into view and landed on her behind!! I laughed so hard, i couldn't breathe. One of my boys is autistic and likes to watch things over and over. He kept watching that over and over and every time was as funny as the first time.

Nothing else has stuck in my head but it was definitely the Dogfather as my boy found that name highly amusing too.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

tabelmabel said:


> All i can remember of the first series is a woman with a huge dog that pulled. I can't even remember the breed or colour of dog, only that it was giant.
> 
> And the woman was shown trying to walk the dog in a park. First you saw the dog charging along, appearing into shot from RHS of my tv screen and next the poor owner was practically air borne as she flew into view and landed on her behind!! I laughed so hard, i couldn't breathe. One of my boys is autistic and likes to watch things over and over. He kept watching that over and over and every time was as funny as the first time.
> 
> Nothing else has stuck in my head but it was definitely the Dogfather as my boy found that name highly amusing too.


This post made me lol!

I remember him staring out a great dane who was barking at him.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

I seemed to have missed this first time round (maybe a good thing?) would be curious to see if the trainer has changed his ways.

I too, for some reason (I was curious!) ended up watching some CM the other day. I could only watch a bit but every dog just looked completely stressed, forced into situations it wasn’t comfortable with... Not that I expected anything else but it’s been years and years since I watched some and (I think) I’m a bit more knowledgeable on doggy language now and it just seemed so obvious that these dogs were not ‘balanced’ as he likes to call it.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2019)

Teddy-dog said:


> I seemed to have missed this first time round (maybe a good thing?) would be curious to see if the trainer has changed his ways.
> 
> I too, for some reason (I was curious!) ended up watching some CM the other day. I could only watch a bit but every dog just looked completely stressed, forced into situations it wasn't comfortable with... Not that I expected anything else but it's been years and years since I watched some and (I think) I'm a bit more knowledgeable on doggy language now and it just seemed so obvious that these dogs were not 'balanced' as he likes to call it.


Agree. They look ready to ping at any moment. I'd be deeply unsatisfied after he left; worried my dog was harbouring things under the surface.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

Anyone watching tonight??


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Recording it to watch later


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2019)

I’m watching.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

danielled said:


> I'm watching.


Not sure what to think! The recall was pretty simple and straight forward. Would rather see the pulling dogs rewarded using positive rather than corrections though..

And teach more about giving into leash pressure than just yanking the collar when the dog isn't by your side.


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2019)

Teddy-dog said:


> Not sure what to think! The recall was pretty simple and straight forward. Would rather see the pulling dogs rewarded using positive rather than corrections though..
> 
> And teach more about giving into leash pressure than just yanking the collar when the dog isn't by your side.


I'll keeping an eye on him. I've started following him on twitter though he seems carefull about what he tweets. When it came to recall I thought erm how about a harness on the dog Graem so the dog doesn't get a nasty neck jerk when it runs to the end.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I didn't see all of it but what I saw I didnt like .Not quite as bad as last Has he not heard of positive reinforcement .? 
Poor labs betting jerked around.
A great shame that is encouraging this type of CM crap.



danielled said:


> I'll keeping an eye on him. I've started following him on twitter though he seems carefull about what he tweets. When it came to recall I thought erm how about a harness on the dog Graem so the dog doesn't get a nasty neck jerk when it runs to the end.


Im on Twitter too . Ive already tweeted about the programme .


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Emily Blackwell has just tweeted me . 
 *Emily Blackwell*‏ @*DrEmilyB* 10m10 minutes ago

Emily Blackwell Retweeted Alison

So sad that this type of outdated nonsense has been given airtime again #*shameonyouchannel5*

If you're on Twitter perhaps let Ch 5 know how you feel .


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Teddy-dog said:


> Not sure what to think! The recall was pretty simple and straight forward. Would rather see the pulling dogs rewarded using positive rather than corrections though..
> 
> And teach more about giving into leash pressure than just yanking the collar when the dog isn't by your side.


Did you notice the labs body language , scared of him . Even the owner noticed .

Like watching CM :Vomit


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Black lab was positively scared of him.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

kimthecat said:


> Did you notice the labs body language , scared of him . Even the owner noticed .
> 
> Like watching CM :Vomit


Yes poor dog! I think it was completely confused about what it was supposed to be doing. I like see my dogs enjoying their walks (which doesn't mean getting pulled about either!)

I missed the first third so watched on plus one and not sure about the nudging the dogs to get them to put all feet on the floor? Almost looked like a CM 'bite' (used for correcting unwanted behaviour in his world). Wouldn't it have been better to reward the dog for having all four feet in a positive way? Then the dog knows what it should be doing?


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

Just watched this. What a con man.

And I noticed that he’d moved moved the labs’ collars right up tight behind their ears.

The whole programme really wound me up.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

After reading the posts on here I think I will be deleting this from my drive and wont be watching


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Any clips for those of us outside the UK?


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Linda Weasel said:


> And I noticed that he'd moved moved the labs' collars right up tight behind their ears.


We have a trainer (unqualified) near us who demonstrates this method. Most people don't like to see it done to their dog but if it's the method shown on TV it must be ok, right? Sigh.

I haven't watched the programme. Not sure of I can as it'll make me grumble.

J


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

O2.0 said:


> Any clips for those of us outside the UK?


Don't know if this will work but here goes...




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=367931077359380


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

I didn't watch it last night as we're binge watching game of thrones at the moment (OH watches it and wants me to catch up before the final season comes out). I caught a tiny bit where he was trying to teach a dog not to dash out of the front door. I don't know how he can call himself a dog "whisperer" or whatever he calls himself as the advice he gives is pretty much the sort of thing your average dog owner would do. And of course his methods are outdated and not science-based.

It's a shame they chose him as this could have been an opportunity to inspire people and get them thinking, which is how me and the rest of my club are after our weekend with Kamal.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

One of the many things that annoys me about the clip above is where it says that after a few minutes Graeme manages to get the dogs to stop jumping up. Well most dogs who jump up as an excited greeting will stop after a few minutes anyway as they get over the initial excitement :Banghead


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Haven’t watched as last time I wasn’t impressed.

Shame the tv companies don’t do a bit of research on positive training advocates and give them a series.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

Sairy said:


> One of the many things that annoys me about the clip above is where it says that after a few minutes Graeme manages to get the dogs to stop jumping up. Well most dogs who jump up as an excited greeting will stop after a few minutes anyway as they get over the initial excitement :Banghead


This is very true.

I really didn't feel like he said anything that valuable throughout the whole programme.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I didn't watch it as I saw a bit of his last series & it was terrible. He has no idea, no timing, no understanding ..... but then I only saw a few minutes!

I also hate the titles of these sort of programmes, it's not the dogs behaving badly it's the owners not training them properly but the 'blame' is always given to the animal which doesn't sit well with me. But I suppose for TV they don't want anything that takes time or shows really skill of a trainer, they just want something people will watch.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

Also thinking back, a 20ft line on a dogs collar is also something I would not do! 

And why didn’t the owners dog proof their garden properly if the dog kept escaping and disappearing for hours at a time??? Something I really don’t understand


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Seems it’s owners behaving badly (or uselessly) rather then the dogs


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

In the clip above I ended up watching the women’s face as it was being explained to her what she needed to do. Her face seemed to read ‘you mean Ive got to do something?’


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> I didn't watch it as I saw a bit of his last series & it was terrible. He has no idea, no timing, no understanding ..... but then I only saw a few minutes!
> 
> I also hate the titles of these sort of programmes, it's not the dogs behaving badly it's the owners not training them properly but the 'blame' is always given to the animal which doesn't sit well with me. But I suppose for TV they don't want anything that takes time or shows really skill of a trainer, they just want something people will watch.


I thought the blame was put quite squarely on the owner of the escaping terrier, whose owner kept calling it 'good' when it was ignoring her and diving into the bushes. And the owners of the Cairn whose anxiety was transmitted straight of the dog. Yes, the 20 metre line attached to a collar was very bad, and I didn't like the lead jerking with the labs either.


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

I've not been watching this but I've just watched the clip @Sairy put on of the labs so will comment on that. I don't see what he was doing will do any good in stopping them jumping? All he was doing is grabbing (half of the time missing them anyway!) and saying 'off'. A lot of dogs when that wound up will just ignore that and carry on. I also thought the black lab looked very unsure. Quite confusing for them I imagine, much better to teach them to sit instead I think. Is this Graeme supposed to be a dog trainer or..?


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

Boxerluver30 said:


> I've not been watching this but I've just watched the clip @Sairy put on of the labs so will comment on that. I don't see what he was doing will do any good in stopping them jumping? All he was doing is grabbing (half of the time missing them anyway!) and saying 'off'. A lot of dogs when that wound up will just ignore that and carry on. I also thought the black lab looked very unsure. Quite confusing for them I imagine, much better to teach them to sit instead I think. Is this Graeme supposed to be a dog trainer or..?


Supposed to be, yes. I've not heard of him before this thread though. I think the black lab was really confused and unsure, felt sorry for it. I also think some more confident dogs would just think what he was doing was a game if they're already over excited!


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

Teddy-dog said:


> Supposed to be, yes. I've not heard of him before this thread though. I think the black lab was really confused and unsure, felt sorry for it. I also think some more confident dogs would just think what he was doing was a game if they're already over excited!


I play wrestle with samson and do like what he was doing, grabbing and pushing him about in a playful manner. He thinks its great fun! :Woot


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Sitting down to watch it with OH now. I don't quite know why I'm doing it to myself but here goes nothing...


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Oh heavens above, why did that woman who has had a back operation think it would be a good idea to walk two labradors who pull like trains together!? Why not take them out seperately at least?

Just seen him begin training the recall in the terrier. The dog has a high prey drive - a perfect opportunity to harness it with recall, but he didn't. Asking a terrier in hunting mode to recall for a piece of sausage is a tall order.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I'm watching too


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Sairy said:


> Don't know if this will work but here goes...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ugh just watched. Well... blergh. Nothing earth shattering or particularly well done either. Who is this trainer person?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> Ugh just watched. Well... blergh. Nothing earth shattering or particularly well done either. Who is this trainer person?


 I think that sums it up . The problem is that , as you know , people will copy him and have unrealistic expectations.

His website is here 
https://www.dogfather.co.uk/


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

O2.0 said:


> Ugh just watched. Well... blergh. Nothing earth shattering or particularly well done either. Who is this trainer person?


I'd literally never heard of him until this program. It's a far cry from the inspiring and thoughtful training I witnessed from Kamal at the weekend. How this man can call himself the "Dogfather" is beyond me. He comes across as very arrogant and his methods are completely outdated. The clip where he showed her how to walk them, with their collars high on their neck and tugging them and saying no if they pulled, was even worse.

Victoria Stillwell's program was better and her methods more up-to-date even when it started, which was over 10 years ago.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Here is a clip of him on This Morning giving "advice" on someone whose beagle won't get off her bed. There is no mention of whether or not the dog understands the command "off" and has been taught it. She just needs to be more stern apparently.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Sairy said:


> Here is a clip of him on This Morning giving "advice" on someone whose beagle won't get off her bed. There is no mention of whether or not the dog understands the command "off" and has been taught it. She just needs to be more stern apparently.


Thanks for posting that ....

What a missed opportunity. The lady calling in with the beagle labels the dog as 'wilful, stubborn and believing he is the Pack Leader.' And the Dogfather nods and smiles in agreement. Actually, no - the dog doesn't believe he is the Pack leader Mr Dogfather ...have you not read anything the last 15 years? And then you label Beagles as 'stubborn' and suggest the best tactic is to be more stern. Wow. I'm underwhelmed by your knowledge. (Although in a nod to 'positive training' he does mutter something about praising the dog if he gets off )

Looking at the clip of the Beagle he looked of amazingly good temperament actually.

I did watch bits of the last show and have no wish to watch this trainer again. The clip with the jumping up Labradors is actually quite bad advice as he is leaning over the dogs which apart from being intimidating will actually put the average owner in a vulnerable position when a dog is jumping up.

J


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> Thanks for posting that ....
> 
> What a missed opportunity. The lady calling in with the beagle labels the dog as 'wilful, stubborn and believing he is the Pack Leader.' And the Dogfather nods and smiles in agreement. Actually, no - the dog doesn't believe he is the Pack leader Mr Dogfather ...have you not read anything the last 15 years? And then you label Beagles as 'stubborn' and suggest the best tactic is to be more stern. Wow. I'm underwhelmed by your knowledge. (Although in a nod to 'positive training' he does mutter something about praising the dog if he gets off )
> 
> ...


Yup, and the lady on the phone even said she had tried asking the dog to move "in all manner of tones" presumably including stern ones and nothing had worked. So telling her to be more stern is about as useful as an inflatable pin cushion! There was no question asked as to whether or not the dog had been taught the command "off". No, this is a beagle, it can't possibly be that the dog doesn't know what is being asked of it - it must be that it is being stubborn because we all know that beagles are stubborn and unwilling to co-operate 

And yes, if I leant over Holly like that when she was jumping up I'd be missing my front row of teeth.

How this man is considered to be a top trainer I just don't know. Your average dog trainer at a club would do better than that.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

When he was on before I had a quick look at his qualification - a Master Trainer with the Guild of Dog Trainers. It looks like it's one of these qualifications where you declare your experience (for Master level, to have 5 years experience plus having trained at least 100 dogs one-to-one or 500 in group situations) then you pay your money (£75 per year) and that's it. It's not clear whether they ask for evidence but even if they do it's based on numbers, not quality.

http://www.godt.org.uk/members/membership-application/


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

Just watched the Beagle video.

OMG. How many opportunities to enlighten novice pet dog owners missed in such a short time.

Also I’m now really excited as for only 75 quid I can become a Dogmother ( Dog-ma) and charge loads of money for giving cr*p advice, possibly even making it up as I go.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Linda Weasel said:


> Just watched the Beagle video.
> 
> OMG. How many opportunities to enlighten novice pet dog owners missed in such a short time.
> 
> Also I'm now really excited as for only 75 quid I can become a Dogmother ( Dog-ma) and charge loads of money for giving cr*p advice, possibly even making it up as I go.


Go for it. Things can only get better.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

And those dreaded words 'pack leader' was said. There needs to be a program debunking the myth of pack leader on tv or its never going to go away. 
He's not the best is he, but in the other hand he's not the worse either, he's sort of slightly better then the toothy one. I can recall the days when Victoria Sitwell wasn't so good.

I look forward to seeing Dog-ma (@Linda Weasel) on tv


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

The dogfather?! Hahaha who does he think he is :Hilarious.


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## AlexPed2393 (Oct 5, 2016)

I don't like his hair... it looks a little too prefect.

Paul Hollywood wannabe that thinks he's a dog trainer


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Sairy said:


> Here is a clip of him on This Morning giving "advice" on someone whose beagle won't get off her bed. There is no mention of whether or not the dog understands the command "off" and has been taught it. She just needs to be more stern apparently.


Argh!!!!!

How about starting with explaining oppositional reflex which the dog was doing a beautiful job of demonstrating?
How about addressing the very clear lip licks and explaining what that communicates and what other calming signals dogs use.

And why, why, WHY does this notion of beagles being stubborn persist?! If they were so stubborn and untrainable why are they used so ubiquitously in detection work throughout the world? 
Most beagles I know don't have a lick of stubborn in them, they're just smarter than their owners


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

O2.0 said:


> Argh!!!!!
> 
> How about starting with explaining oppositional reflex which the dog was doing a beautiful job of demonstrating?
> How about addressing the very clear lip licks and explaining what that communicates and what other calming signals dogs use.
> ...


He wouldn't be able to explain oppositional reflex because he doesn't know what it is, as demonstrated when he instructed the woman with the pulling labs to tug on the lead when they pulled.


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## Bugsys grandma (Aug 3, 2018)

Sairy said:


> He wouldn't be able to explain oppositional reflex because he doesn't know what it is, as demonstrated when he instructed the woman with the pulling labs to tug on the lead when they pulled.


At the risk of sounding really stupid, what is oppositional reflex? I'm embarrassed to say I don't know


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Bugsys grandma said:


> At the risk of sounding really stupid, what is oppositional reflex? I'm embarrassed to say I don't know


I'm not the best at explaining, but basically think about what a dog does if you try to pull in one direction. Usually they will pull in the opposite direction. I believe it is a basic survival instinct - if an animal gets caught it will try to pull away.

So in the video the woman is trying to move the beagle and the beagle is kind of digging his heels in rather than going with the direction the woman is trying to move him. Another example is when walking a dog who pulls forward a lot of people tend to pull the dog back, which results in it pulling forward again. Owners walking puppies often complain that the pup stops and won't move. The mistake they often make is trying to pull the pup to make it move, which results in the pup digging its heels in as a reflex reaction.

That's my explanation anyway. No doubt someone else will explain it better than me.


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## Bugsys grandma (Aug 3, 2018)

Thank you @Sairy. That makes sense.


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2019)

JoanneF said:


> When he was on before I had a quick look at his qualification - a Master Trainer with the Guild of Dog Trainers. It looks like it's one of these qualifications where you declare your experience (for Master level, to have 5 years experience plus having trained at least 100 dogs one-to-one or 500 in group situations) then you pay your money (£75 per year) and that's it. It's not clear whether they ask for evidence but even if they do it's based on numbers, not quality.
> 
> http://www.godt.org.uk/members/membership-application/


I'm a Master Eater with the Guild of Chocolate Consumption. And it only took me half an hour and eight quid at Tesco


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Sairy said:


> So in the video the woman is trying to move the beagle and the beagle is kind of digging his heels in rather than going with the direction the woman is trying to move him. Another example is when walking a dog who pulls forward a lot of people tend to pull the dog back, which results in it pulling forward again. Owners walking puppies often complain that the pup stops and won't move. The mistake they often make is trying to pull the pup to make it move, which results in the pup digging its heels in as a reflex reaction..


Perfect explanation I think.

The best way to demonstrate oppositional reflex is by asking someone to put out their hand ( as if to shake hands) but instead of shaking their hand, start to pull them towards you and you will find they automatically pull back. Initially to maintain balance. A reflex is an involuntary action so you don't get to think about it it just happens.

Thus Mr Dogfathers rather crass advice of what to do if a dog pulls.

J


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

More fabulous advice from "The Dog father"


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

And let's get a guarding breed and tell it off for guarding.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> Most beagles I know don't have a lick of stubborn in them, they're just smarter than their owners


I sometimes think that's true of most dogs


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

How do you get a job like this ? Surely there are so many more people who are more qualified.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Sairy said:


> More fabulous advice from "The Dog father"


He really is basic with his understanding isn't he. I want to laugh but it's not that funny.



Boxer123 said:


> How do you get a job like this ? Surely there are so many more people who are more qualified.


I do wonder that they can't find someone who can demonstrate a knowledge of how a dogs mind works - there are a million excellent trainers and behaviourists out there - but it's not so much about the training as the TV methinks, appearing on Good Morning TV shows and appealing to the public who want to see quick results and someone who smiles a lot. (I could be talking about Cesar of course - same appeal  )

And I do think that most good trainers simply wouldn't have the interest, seeing as the programme is more about ratings than dogs.

J


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I've just watched last weeks show, to be honest I wasn't overly impressed, bring back Victoria.


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2019)

Happy Paws said:


> I've just watched last weeks show, to be honest I wasn't overly impressed, bring back Victoria.


Victoria Stilwell any day.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

I liked Victoria I thought she had some good tips.


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

I think it's more to do with his "tv personality" than whether he's a good dog trainer or not. Most people either don't know any better or just don't bother to look into it themselves regarding his methods so he can get away with it. As we all know proper training takes time and effort and isn't what people seem to want which is a quick fix. Plus it wouldn't make good tv . 

Victoria stillwell I do think is a good trainer but whenever I've watched her it's me or the dog she ends up annoying me. Can't put my finger on what it is but she just rubs me up the wrong way . Would take her over this guy any day though


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Problem is TV shows want quick results and good training doesn't produce the results they want in the time they want. 
Really frustratingly my boss was saying how good she thought he was as it was 'old school' simple basic techniques. I didn't argue, I didn't have the energy. Unfortunately people still follow and use this style of training despite the fact training and behaviour has moved on leaps and bounds, and with people like him on TV it's going to take a long time for the public to move on too.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Sairy said:


> And let's get a guarding breed and tell it off for guarding.


Suzanne Clothier has a fantastic little truth tidbit that fits here:
"punishing instinctive behaviors can really confuse the hell out of a dog, and make him very unwilling to work for you" 
From a great article on working with drives https://suzanneclothier.com/article/drive-brakes-steering/

I don't think VS is the answer here either TBH, she's not a great as people make her out to be. I've said this before, she's in the Atlanta area which is the same training network I'm in. A lot of people I know know her or have been around her in person around dogs and are not impressed. No, she's not making things worse at least, but there are so many amazing trainers out there and she's not even in the same ballpark. She just happens to be good on TV.

I wish these TV experts would just go on TV, say "find a good trainer in your area, this is what to look for" and stop there. 
Or maybe a show that travels the country spotlighting fabulous trainers in each region and showing some of their achievements. That would be cool....


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

O2.0 said:


> Suzanne Clothier has a fantastic little truth tidbit that fits here:
> "punishing instinctive behaviors can really confuse the hell out of a dog, and make him very unwilling to work for you"
> From a great article on working with drives https://suzanneclothier.com/article/drive-brakes-steering/
> 
> ...


I agree. My comparison with VS was simply to say that even she was better than this chap and her show was on around 10 years ago.

The problem is that too many people want a solution to tackle problem behaviours with minimal effort. Not just finding quick-fixes to problems, but not acknowledging that dogs are unique and the reason that one dog exhibits a certain behaviour might be completely different from another dog. There are so many variables at play (the dog's breed, age, temperament, living environment, the owner's training knowledge and capabilities, mannerisms etc.). There is nothing like having a knowledgeable trainer watch you and your dog interact, see whatever issues you are having and give advice based on your specific scenario.


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2019)

Boxerluver30 said:


> I think it's more to do with his "tv personality" than whether he's a good dog trainer or not. Most people either don't know any better or just don't bother to look into it themselves regarding his methods so he can get away with it. As we all know proper training takes time and effort and isn't what people seem to want which is a quick fix. Plus it wouldn't make good tv .
> 
> Victoria stillwell I do think is a good trainer but whenever I've watched her it's me or the dog she ends up annoying me. Can't put my finger on what it is but she just rubs me up the wrong way . Would take her over this guy any day though


My mum for example still believes in pack theory and old school but now she just leaves me to train my boy my way. No pack theory rubbish here, no point trying to tell her it's debunked, I've tried telling her but she still believes dogs are pack animals/wolves.


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## DaisyBluebell (Apr 14, 2017)

Anything that gets idiots actually trying to train their dogs is a good idea. He is not great but he did have a couple of worthwhile tips (eg silly women out with TWO labs) for beginners. I personally do not like Victoria Sitwell some of her suggestions I find appalling !
It's a great suggestion about finding a good trainer locally but even that is a difficult one. What works for one person/dog relationship doesn't always work for another. Getting to actually know your dog & not expecting it to come understanding you is a good starting point & actually taking the time to understand what makes them tick as previously suggested is a basic good starting point & a willingness to take tips from knowledgeable owners, a lot of whom are actually on this forum, is an excellent idea.
At least these types of shows is an encouragement to do something as opposed to nothing & continued bad, sometimes, dangerous behavious.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> Suzanne Clothier has a fantastic little truth tidbit that fits here:
> "punishing instinctive behaviors can really confuse the hell out of a dog, and make him very unwilling to work for you"
> From a great article on working with drives https://suzanneclothier.com/article/drive-brakes-steering/
> 
> ...


Agree, again I think she was another example of her 'look' being more for TV than her training skills. Admittedly I have never attended any of her events but seeing her in action on TV & various clips from her own website I am not that impressed. She is so uninspiring compared to other trainers I've been able to train with. There is one clip of her teaching heelwork & the dog looks bored out of it's mind, such a stark comparison to the clips with Kamal (as mentioned recently in another thread) & how motivated he gets the dogs to be when training.

Such a shame that considering so many people have dogs that the programme makers just don't seem to be able to put something on that's entertaining as well as being informative & based on science


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

I think one of the trademarks of a good dog trainer is to keep up to date. VS, for example, has moved a very long way from her early stuff; and like her or not, she does no harm.

Thirty plus years ago I was watching good old Barbara Woodhose on TV. I had a check chain on my dog and shouted’Sit!!’ Loudly.

I’ve moved forward through the Pack Theory and dominance behaviour. Originally the likes of John Rogerson and Ian Dunbar were promoting these, if you asked them now I’m sure they’d tell you that what they thought then was based on what was known at the time and that now they know differently.

Now we have the likes of Kamal and Suzanne Clothier who are building on all the stuff, right or wrong, that has been used previously but with so much added research and knowledge.

This new guy’s problem is that he appears to think that he knows all there is to know about dogs. That’s a really bad attitude to have because the more you know, the more you realise how little you know, if you’ve got any sense.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

DaisyBluebell said:


> Anything that gets idiots actually trying to train their dogs is a good idea. He is not great but he did have a couple of worthwhile tips (eg silly women out with TWO labs) for beginners. I personally do not like Victoria Sitwell some of her suggestions I find appalling !


Some of early stuff was appalling , using horns etc but she has come a long way since then . She writes for Dogs Today .
She is popular in the US , she is our best hope against CM.

John Fisher founded COAPE and Think Dog in the 90s I think , to promote a better understanding of dogs from an ethological I think he promoted the Pack leader theory , it might have stemmed from him .
All the well known behaviourists did , Appleby , Neville , etc we all did , it was meant to kinder than Barbara Woodhouse . He later changed his mind but sadly died of cancer.

There has been increased research in dog behaviour and we are discovering more about them all the time .


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## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> Such a shame that considering so many people have dogs that the programme makers just don't seem to be able to put something on that's entertaining as well as being informative & based on science


We did have Me and my dog, the ultimate contest which showed lots of excellent positive training tips and had Sian Ryan from Developing Dogs as the main trainer. Unfortunately it was too costly to make a second series. I guess the poor training styles of the Dogfather make for cheaper telly for the same ratings.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Erm , Im going to set the cat amongst the pigeons 

I cant find much info but Im sure about 4 years ago , they finished the dog mapping DNA genome or something and it seems to contradict the Coppingers theory that dogs aren't a direct descendant of wolves . I actually saw the word discredited used. 
Does anyone remember ? 
I dont think dogs are wolves , they have evolved so much .


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> Some of early stuff was appalling , using horns etc but she has come a long way since then . She writes for Dogs Today .
> She is popular in the US , she is our best hope against CM.
> 
> John Fisher founded COAPE and Think Dog in the 90s I think , to promote a better understanding of dogs from an ethological I think he promoted the Pack leader theory , it might have stemmed from him .
> ...


John Fisher was the founder of APDT, and he certainly did promote the 'pack leader' theories, based on much earlier research which he collated and applied to dog training methods. It was ground-breaking stuff at the time and was a massive step forward for trainers who up until then were very 'pushme pull-you' and hands very definitely on, with dogs.

Were he still here he would, I'm sure, have moved forward vigorously from what he was saying in the 1980s.


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

danielled said:


> My mum for example still believes in pack theory and old school but now she just leaves me to train my boy my way. No pack theory rubbish here, no point trying to tell her it's debunked, I've tried telling her but she still believes dogs are pack animals/wolves.


My step dad was similar. He still does to an extent but it isn't as bad. I just leave him to it as he isn't involved with Samson in that way, it's not worth the arguments of trying to convince him otherwise


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

DaisyBluebell said:


> Anything that gets idiots actually trying to train their dogs is a good idea. He is not great but he did have a couple of worthwhile tips (eg silly women out with TWO labs) for beginners. I personally do not like Victoria Sitwell some of her suggestions I find appalling !
> It's a great suggestion about finding a good trainer locally but even that is a difficult one. What works for one person/dog relationship doesn't always work for another. Getting to actually know your dog & not expecting it to come understanding you is a good starting point & actually taking the time to understand what makes them tick as previously suggested is a basic good starting point & a willingness to take tips from knowledgeable owners, a lot of whom are actually on this forum, is an excellent idea.
> At least these types of shows is an encouragement to do something as opposed to nothing & continued bad, sometimes, dangerous behavious.


I get what you're saying, but the problem is that he speaks just about enough sense for people to think he knows what he is talking about, but then also makes some bad, and potentially dangerous, suggestions. Some members of the public will follow these suggestions - some might work, some might have no effect and some might completely backfire.

Yes it is not always easy to find a good trainer and many people do not even know what to look for in a trainer. There is usually more than one way to train a desired behaviour and a good trainer will give advice specific to that dog and owner. I'm still very much new to being an instructor and honestly I learn something from every single class I do. I'm constantly re-evaluating everything and thinking of ways I can structure classes to get the most out of the dogs and handlers - I'm absolutely passionate about it and get a real buzz from it. I still have so much to learn, but think this is a good thing. Some trainers think they know everything they need to know and will do what they've always done because they think it's the best way. They don't bother keeping up to date with different techniques and that is such a shame.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

kimthecat said:


> I cant find much info but Im sure about 4 years ago , they finished the dog mapping DNA genome or something and it seems to contradict the Coppingers theory that dogs aren't a direct descendant of wolves . I actually saw the word discredited used.
> Does anyone remember ?


I remember  My memory of it is hazy but I seem to remember it had to do with more primitive breeds, not all dog breeds. It doesn't matter either way, it's interesting from a biological POV, but modern dogs are not wolves. Some behaviors overlap, sure, but at the end of the day, dogs are dogs, wolves are wolves, and humans are weird 



danielled said:


> I've tried telling her but she still believes dogs are pack animals/wolves.


Well, it does get confusing though, I do understand folks resistance to letting go of the "pack animal" idea. Dogs are very obviously social creatures who make friends, can very much enjoy the company of other dogs, and they have a highly complex system of communication that facilitates all these social interactions. To the average Joe, that looks a lot like a "pack" animal.

We all understand that pack *theory* doesn't apply to training dogs. But it's not only because dogs are not pack animals. It's for multiple reasons. Dogs know we're not dogs, humans grossly misinterpret what leadership looks like, we suck at understanding our own body language cues, and of course most of the pack theory rules are just stupid. No dog cares if you eat a cracker before you feed them their meal for example.

But dogs do benefit greatly from leadership on our part. Dogs need to know they can trust their human - that is a leadership trait. Can I trust my human to handle this weird situation? Does my human understand my signals and respond to them appropriately? Is my human someone I enjoy being around and look to for fun as well as guidance?

Somewhere we have become hugely confused about the concept of leadership. Leading has nothing to do with forcing, but so much of the pack leadership formula for training dogs is about force - which is the antithesis of leadership. You become a leader when the dog chooses to be guided by you because of your history of trust, mutual understanding, and being a source of safety and stability for your dog. All this forcing and pushing around just erodes trust and any hope of being a true leader to your dog.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

O2.0 said:


> I remember  My memory of it is hazy but I seem to remember it had to do with more primitive breeds, not all dog breeds. It doesn't matter either way, it's interesting from a biological POV, but modern dogs are not wolves. Some behaviors overlap, sure, but at the end of the day, dogs are dogs, wolves are wolves, and humans are weird
> 
> Well, it does get confusing though, I do understand folks resistance to letting go of the "pack animal" idea. Dogs are very obviously social creatures who make friends, can very much enjoy the company of other dogs, and they have a highly complex system of communication that facilitates all these social interactions. To the average Joe, that looks a lot like a "pack" animal.
> 
> ...


In one of my classes the other day I was asking the handlers about what their dogs' basic needs were (apart from food, water and exercise). One of the possible answers for the good citizens test is "leadership". One of my handlers said "discipline", which I asked her to explain but she was unsure what to say. I think the word "discipline" can be interpreted in different ways because some will think that means their dog needs to be told off, which I would not accept as a suitable answer, but some might see discipline as simply having rules and guidelines in place. It's an interesting one.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Sairy said:


> a good trainer will give advice specific to that dog and owner.


Absolutely. 
While it's true that not all trainers will be a good match with clients (dogs and humans) most decent trainers have excellent people skills as well as dog skills, and are very adept at personalizing the advice to each specific individual dog and handler.

Also, the good trainers have an big network of trainers they know from continued education, and they can recommend someone else if necessary. 10 years ago I went to a trainer with Bates. She worked with me (and we have since become good friends), but when we got to the point where we had exhausted her expertise, she had a couple recommendations for me to go see. Through her I met some other fabulous trainers and eventually worked with Hannah Branigan from the "Drinking from the Toilet" podcast who was one of the people who really helped me understand and eventually be able to work with Bates' drive.

So yeah, a good trainer is a good trainer no matter who you are and what issues you're having with your dog


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Sairy said:


> I think the word "discipline" can be interpreted in different ways because some will think that means their dog needs to be told off, which I would not accept as a suitable answer, but some might see discipline as simply having rules and guidelines in place. It's an interesting one.


Ha ha, that shows up in teaching and parenting too. 
Discipline in it's purest form simply means to instruct. To teach. When I teach my dog to give in to leash pressure instead of succumbing to oppositional reflex, I'm "disciplining" him


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

O2.0 said:


> Ha ha, that shows up in teaching and parenting too.
> Discipline in it's purest form simply means to instruct. To teach. When I teach my dog to give in to leash pressure instead of succumbing to oppositional reflex, I'm "disciplining" him


It's the same as "correcting" your dog. To me if you "correct" your dog then you are just putting him right if he deviates from what you want. I correct my dog. If she pulls on the lead then I put her right - I do sticky feet and then stop and wait for her to stop and look at me. These days she knows why I've stopped and will instantly come back to heel, but previously I've "corrected" her by showing her where I want her.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Perhaps part of the problem is that a lot of people just aren't inspired enough to train their dog. When you think about it, when you watch TV or videos that go viral on YouTube they tend to be either of dogs "behaving badly" or of dogs that are incredibly well trained and are champions in agility or HTM. A lot of owners think "well my dog will never be able to do that" and give up entirely. I think it's so important for people have something to aspire to that is achievable. Not every dog is going to make it to Crufts, but I think it's a reasonable goal for any average owner to have their dog trained to a point that they can take them out to places and trust they that can keep them under control. So many owners do not experience the joys of walking their dogs because walking is stressful. Of course for some this could be due to issues beyond their control (e.g. their dog was previously attacked and now has fear issues) but I'm not referring to these. I'm talking about those who have never had the patience to train a reliable recall, or to train their dog to walk nicely on a lead, or to not lunge towards other dogs.

We had a comittee meeting at the end of last year for one of the dog training clubs I instruct at and we said that we felt that some of the handlers had become a bit "stagnant" with their training. They were enjoying coming to classes but were doing nothing in between. We decided that they needed something to aim for. Most of them don't want to go on to do any of the sports and are happy having pets who behave reasonably well, which is absolutely fine but it is difficult in our club as we have more wanting to join and not enough spaces in the lower classes so we want people to move up to the higher classes. We decided to put on a little display when everyone is back at the end of the month to show people in the lower classes what they can achieve in the higher classes if they just put in that extra little bit of work. Fingers crossed it motivates them.


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## DaisyBluebell (Apr 14, 2017)

Well if nothing else 'Graeme' has given us an excellent thread, albeit was originally started with his previous TV shows quite some time ago!
I for one am really enjoying it. Some interesting views and information to think about. As previously said I have learnt a lot more from people on here than I have at a few classes I have attended, for which I am very grateful.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

@Sairy. Do you do the KC tests? Never done any myself but I think it's nice for people to have a goal, and most could at least achieve the Bronze.

We also used to have Club competitions, with rosettes, nothing too serious, fun, and again set challenges to be met. The 'beginners' class was purposely really basic so that almost everybody had something to take part in.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Linda Weasel said:


> @Sairy. Do you do the KC tests? Never done any myself but I think it's nice for people to have a goal, and most could at least achieve the Bronze.
> 
> We also used to have Club competitions, with rosettes, nothing too serious, fun, and again set challenges to be met. The 'beginners' class was purposely really basic so that almost everybody had something to take part in.


Yes we do them at both the clubs I train at. They are great targets to aim for, but I also think that because the classes are grouped according to where the dog and handler are in their training (beginners, intermediate and advanced) in one of the clubs in particular people in the beginners class don't get to see some of the more advanced dogs and have something to aspire to. This is why we have decided to do a demonstration.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Good point about the term discipline. Ive noticed on line that people from the States tend to use the term discipline to mean training and the UK as punishment . 
Discipline makes me think of Kenny Everett and Cleo Rocos Miss Whiplash


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

When I turned over to Nat Geographic on the TV a little while ago, who should be on but that man whose name no one mentions, He was instructing a man how to get his GSD from the house and into the car without the dog pulling. He kept telling the guy to yank the dog back, make it sit and reprimand it with his famous tssh sound when it was quite obvious the dog was excited about the prospect of going for a ride in the car.

Now my two have been driving me mad all day because it's cold and snowing heavily outside and they couldn't make up their minds whether they wanted to be in or out! So seeing "him" on the tele, their awful mum made them stand in front of the screen whilst giving them lecture on how lucky they were to have me and not someone who yanked them around like the poor dog on the screen. 

Don't think it made any impression on either of them, but I was made a fuss of and given a few licky kisses so I could be wrong!


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

kimthecat said:


> Erm , Im going to set the cat amongst the pigeons
> 
> I cant find much info but Im sure about 4 years ago , they finished the dog mapping DNA genome or something and it seems to contradict the Coppingers theory that dogs aren't a direct descendant of wolves . I actually saw the word discredited used.
> Does anyone remember ?
> I dont think dogs are wolves , they have evolved so much .


Dogs most likely didn't descend from wolves; not the way wolves are today, anyway.
Evolution is a continuing process. Wolves will have evolved over the last 30,000 or so years as well. They won't be the same as when what came to be domestic dogs began to change from them. Let's call them proto-wolves. Although they might look similar in fossil form, there aren't any fossils of social behaviour. Wolf social behaviour 30,000 years ago may well be very different from what we see now, with the pressures of human encroachment and persecution that they've had to survive.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Saw this article today thought it made some very good points about TV shows and dog training

https://www.thecanineconsultants.co.uk/blog/tv-dog-trainers-aren-t-magicians


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Fleur said:


> Saw this article today thought it made some very good points about TV shows and dog training
> 
> https://www.thecanineconsultants.co.uk/blog/tv-dog-trainers-aren-t-magicians


For some reason I'm not able to open this link? 
Can you C/P the content? Sounds good


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> For some reason I'm not able to open this link?
> Can you C/P the content? Sounds good


Here you go. And it's something everyone should read. *It's by Canine Consultant Emma.*
*TV Dog Trainers Aren't Magicians*

Every so often, a TV channel brings out the latest animal training, animal behaviour based reality program. Sometimes it's a competition, sometimes it's a car-crash drama filled half hour or hour of snarling, barking, jumping, crazy-eyed beasts with desperate owners in floods of tears.

*Whatever it is, it's also a deception and a lie.*

Make no mistake, the purpose of these shows, of any TV show is to get viewers and to sell advertising time. The purpose is not to educate, it is not to help you resolve problems with your terrifying terrier or your psychotic poodle.

The purpose is to amuse, to entertain, to get people talking about last nights show, to get people watching on catch up to sell advertising space there, to get bums on seats and eyeballs on screens. Even where the animal welfare is thought out and the experts involved truly are experts, the nature of a tv show is such that, you cannot possibly show all the work involved in the timeframe permitted. Very few ethical trainers and behaviourists will get involved in such shows because there is always the pressure to compromise animal welfare for viewer ratings and money - as a result, very few shows (I can think of only two in the last five years) involve ethical, credible experts and best practice regarding training methods and animal welfare.

*So what's the problem?*

Well, the problem is, without ethical professionals involved, the animals in these shows suffer, the animals belonging to people who watch them, suffer, and the people who own these animals, will almost certainly also suffer. The methods appear to work, and so the viewer, even if they question the safety or validity of the methods used, accepts that it is justified and necessary.

Viewers are under the mistaken impression that someone who is branded as an expert, on a TV show, must be a credible, qualified professional and therefore what they are doing must be safe, must be ok, must be acceptable.

'If this wasn't ok, they wouldn't be allowed to do it on TV'.

Sadly, they are wrong. Much is permitted on TV that isn't ok, isn't safe or sensible, isn't based in science and is dangerous.

In the most recent round of 'Fido Is A Bad Dog' style shows, we see our expert, he's a dapper smiling chap, dressed nicely and the smooth words that come out of his mouth seem to make sense.

What a lovely chap, he wants to help these poor poor owners - cut to owners being dragged face down along the pavement by unruly dogs (edit shot so we don't see unruly dogs muller a puppy belonging to an innocent member of the public).

Immediately we are presented two 'facts' - 1/ Our 'expert' is a Master Trainer, and 2/ Our owners are clearly desperate, panicked, failing and in danger of serious accident.

_*But both of these 'facts' are false constructs.*_

Our 'Master Trainer' holds this qualification from a professional body that is little more than a pay-to-join club, he has taken their examination (not externally accredited), he has paid to be a member, and that is it. You or I could set up an organisation tomorrow that sells people a piece of paper with 'SUPREME GRAND HIGH POOHBAH DOG TRAINER' on it, and it would carry exactly the same meaning and weight as his 'Master Trainer' qualification.

Our desperate, failing owner has been set up to look as bad as she possibly can, she's scraped her elbow and there's blood on her arm, she's almost in tears..

Well of course she is, she's been encouraged by the film crew to let her dogs drag her around and wind them up all morning so they can get that awful footage.

No reputable professional would set someone up to fail in this manner, she could have introduced her dogs one at a time in the garden where they would have been safe and she wouldn't have been pulled over.

But that wouldn't have made good TV and it wouldn't have set everyone up to find the trainer a calm, confident authority figure, and the owner a pathetic mess…

So within the opening 5 minutes of this program, we see a lady reduced to tears and physically injured, dogs out of control and put at risk of being hit by cars, and a charming charlatan styled as a credible expert.

Now he goes to their house to see about stopping these boisterous dogs from jumping on those who come in - he does this by pushing them off balance, because dogs don't like to be off balance (no shit Sherlock, no one does!).

The footage is cleverly cut to make it look like these dogs stop jumping really quickly - the reality is, this lady has had a TV crew in her small home for many hours, with the trainer repeating the work over and over, both to get it right and to get the shots they need.

By the time the owners children appear, and the dogs are let in to demonstrate what they have learned, of COURSE a miraculous change has occurred, and they no longer jump up.

But why would they, these are their family not exciting strangers, and they are shattered from a house full of strange people, strange gear and have got all their jumping out of their system.

Later on we see our self styled god of dog training advise the owner to put collars on the dogs not harnesses (he fails to explain this is so that he can deliver painful jerks to the necks to punish pulling on the lead) and he finally advises her to walk one dog at a time.

In the 3 week follow up, we see the owner still has to deliver a correction to one of the dogs every two paces, clearly indicating that the training has not in fact worked. We don't see a follow up of the jumping on guests problem at all. I wonder why.

Now this may all sound very mild, oh a few tugs on a lead, they are big dogs, that's ok, it won't really hurt them...

It isn't ok, a few tugs on the lead works until it becomes old news, it works until the dog sees something more interesting and learns he can ignore it, so a tug on the lead becomes a good hard yank.

When that inevitably fails (because the owner has not taught the dog any good reason for walking beside her) what next, stick on a choke collar, maybe a prong collar, maybe worse?

Training using aversives like this is _*very*_ reinforcing for the handler, it works, we do it again - it works enough that when it stops working, we try harder, and when we 'try harder' with an aversive, that means we apply it more forcefully, we apply more pain and discomfort.

I am sure anyone would agree that seeing someone yank a dog off its feet by a choke chain is unacceptable, and that is the inevitable conclusion should someone follow the advice given on the show - because at no point is it explained that the dog needs to be rewarded for doing the right thing, in a way the dog actually perceives as a reward.

Shows like this present us with the straw man concept that when things get really bad, harsh methods are necessary.

We see this trainer enter a home with a collie who has a bite history, specifically a history of biting strange men who come to the door or enter the house.

Again the owner and dog are set up to fail, she's right there with the dog on a tight lead, in the living room, dog wearing a muzzle so tight she cannot open her mouth to pant.

IMMEDIATELY this is a welfare issue - this dog is terrified, she growls, she lunges, she wants this man to go away - every fibre of her being wants this situation over with.

Our expert dog training master is well aware of this, he points out she would have bitten him multiple times if she were not wearing the muzzle, and he is right.

*So why is he subjecting this dog to this utter terror?*

We are supposed to believe it is necessary for the training, but the grim fact is - it is not.

It is necessary for the filming, and it is necessary to again, put the owner on the back foot, make her feel like a failure, and make him look calm, confident and clever.

Any ethical professional would have taken a lengthy history from the owner, and visited with the dog safely behind a gate, possibly on a lead held by one of the owners, at a distance where the dog felt comfortable and not threatened.

But that doesn't make exciting TV.

In another case, we see this trainer visit a clearly overwrought, anxious, frantic little terrier. He sees the dog at home and can clearly grasp that the dog is very on edge and scared. He is capable of taking a history by simply speaking to the owners and he does so. He is told the dog is terrified when they take into a busy town centre.

Here, the ethical behaviour consultant would stop - recommend a safe management plan and behaviour modification plan, exercises to work on at home and demonstrate some handling techniques.

Not our TV expert - instead, we have the TV crew film the family take the dog into town, demonstrating clearly the dog is at times screaming in fear, shaking, lunging, snapping, refusing to move and needing to be carried.

Then for further drama, we see our TV expert go into town with the family and the dog, and subject that dog to yet MORE terror, so that he can 'see the problem'.

He tells the owners some wholly unscientific guff about rewarding fear (you can't reward fear by the way. You can add to it by doing yet more scary things, but you cannot make anyone more fearful by being kind to them and providing them the comfort and safety that they need).

Then we see him take the dog from them and march through town without a problem - oh what a miracle.

Except by this point, this poor dog has been flooded, overwhelmed with exposure to the things he fears, and has shut down. He no longer reacts because he knows nothing he does will save him, not because he is genuinely happy!

In both this case and the collie case, our trainer has used flooding to overwhelm the animals into learned helplessness - they no longer appear to react, which looks like they have calmed down and the owners are happy they can invite friends round or take the dog into town.

_*In fact both dogs are liable to regress, suddenly and severely*_, and when the owners are least expecting it, and in the case of the collie who bites when she's scared, this means she is even more of a risk than before treatment.

*But the viewer won't know that of course.*

TV shows like this (and this is the latest in a long line of such shows) set out to create huge drama, and then plop in a magician who waves a magic wand and hey presto, the animal is cured, everyone is happy.

Through the use of editing, filming techniques and omitting huge amounts of information, TV can make magic happen.

The damage done by these shows is frankly, epic. And it is never the likes of this trainer, or other unqualified, unethical TV personality trainers who pay the price or have to fix the mess.

These shows set owners up to feel like having a professional in to help them will be a traumatic and upsetting experience, they are told by the show that it will be normal for their animal to be subjected to pain, punishment and fear.

Trainers like this, if people track them down, will typically charge up to ten times the average, industry standard fees, and make guarantees for lifetime support that simply cannot be honoured.

These shows also set up an expectation that getting professional help in is really only for wildly out of control, severe problems - when the reality is, many people with much more minor issues would be far better getting help in sooner, rather than later!

It is really easy for someone already an ethical canine professional, to find the faults and flaws with the TV dog training magicians - but for the average, normal owner, it can be absolutely impossible.

The following table can help identify whether someone is ethical and science based, or dangerously outdated and unethical.

















*Cost *- variable but between £100 and £300 ish depending on the problem, the distance travelled, the number of sessions pre-paid.

_*Format*_ - expect to fill out a pre consultation form, detailed history on your dog, previous training methods, and the problem behaviours you are experiencing.

You may in some circumstances be asked if you have video footage of unwanted behaviour, but it is incredibly rare that an ethical professional will ask you to set your dog up to fail, to demonstrate the problem.

Expect to be asked to take your dog to the vet to check that there is no medical reason for the behaviour problem.

_*Home visit*_ - expect to be asked to have your dog behind a gate or on a lead/muzzled if the issue is related to aggression towards strangers. Expect to sit, have a chat and get to know your chosen professional, whilst they observe your dog in your home.

They may demonstrate handling or training techniques, and depending on the issue this may involve working on your property or going out in public.

_*At no point should they do anything unpleasant or painful to your dog, nor should they ask you to do that, they should be happy to answer any and all questions, both about the methods they are employing, and the experience and training they have had.*_

Whilst sometimes a consultation may involve discussing upsetting topics or past events, your behaviour consultant is not there to judge you, or make you feel bad - a huge part of their job is to make you feel confident and happy about tackling your dogs problem behaviours!

_*Follow up/on going support*_ - you should expect to receive a written assessment of your dog and the current situation, plus a written plan of action going forward. Whilst it is not viable for practitioners to offer ongoing lifetime support for a flat-fee (they would eventually amass so many non-paying clients it would be impossible) you can reasonably expect around six months of email support, and the offer of discounted follow up visits if pre-booked at the time of your initial consult. _* Dog training is still an unregulated industry, at this point anyone can give themselves any title they choose - please ask people who their professional body is, what code of conduct they need to follow, what their qualifications are and what continued professional development they do annually. And then follow up on that information, look it up, find out more, before you hand over your money, and your trust.*_


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Burrowzig said:


> Here you go. And it's something everyone should read. *It's by Canine Consultant Emma.*
> *TV Dog Trainers Aren't Magicians*
> 
> Every so often, a TV channel brings out the latest animal training, animal behaviour based reality program. Sometimes it's a competition, sometimes it's a car-crash drama filled half hour or hour of snarling, barking, jumping, crazy-eyed beasts with desperate owners in floods of tears.
> ...


Very good article. I wish everyone could see this.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

sounds to me the show should be called how to be an arse to a dog .......this is how to not train a dog.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

bring back stilwell she was a very good trainer and hot to boot....(what can I say I am still a guy)


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Turns out I know a dog trainer in the same area as this chap, she and other local trainers have had to pick up the pieces when his training hasn't worked on many occasions apparently. I also know someone who handled a stooge dog on an earlier series where a Great Dane was being "trained". The bloke is there for up to a week "training" the dogs, and then on TV it comes across as if it has worked all in the space of about 10 mins! Apparently after filming the owners had to get the help of a behaviourist because this chap actually did a lot more harm than good - but I'm sure it looked great on TV


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## Bugsys grandma (Aug 3, 2018)

Sarah H said:


> Turns out I know a dog trainer in the same area as this chap, she and other local trainers have had to pick up the pieces when his training hasn't worked on many occasions apparently. I also know someone who handled a stooge dog on an earlier series where a Great Dane was being "trained". The bloke is there for up to a week "training" the dogs, and then on TV it comes across as if it has worked all in the space of about 10 mins! Apparently after filming the owners had to get the help of a behaviourist because this chap actually did a lot more harm than good - but I'm sure it looked great on TV


This is shocking! How can he be allowed to get away with that? People are wanting real help with their family pets and this guy goes in, buggers about a bit, then leaves them with more problems than they started with? What is going on!!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Sarah H said:


> Turns out I know a dog trainer in the same area as this chap, she and other local trainers have had to pick up the pieces when his training hasn't worked on many occasions apparently. I also know someone who handled a stooge dog on an earlier series where a Great Dane was being "trained". The bloke is there for up to a week "training" the dogs, and then on TV it comes across as if it has worked all in the space of about 10 mins! Apparently after filming the owners had to get the help of a behaviourist because this chap actually did a lot more harm than good - but I'm sure it looked great on TV


Very sad but not surprising


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Bugsys grandma said:


> This is shocking! How can he be allowed to get away with that? People are wanting real help with their family pets and this guy goes in, buggers about a bit, then leaves them with more problems than they started with? What is going on!!


That's what can too easily happen in any unregulated industry. Like the NHS picking up the tab for sorting out the messes made when people go abroad for cosmetic surgery and come back infected and distorted.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Fleur said:


> Saw this article today thought it made some very good points about TV shows and dog training
> 
> https://www.thecanineconsultants.co.uk/blog/tv-dog-trainers-aren-t-magicians


Good website.

I scanned through the SA section which also had some really good explanations/advice too.

And "let dogs be dogs" which compares positive reward based training with punishment training.

There is a lot of good, common sense writing on the site, from what I've read.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Lurcherlad said:


> Good website.
> 
> I scanned through the SA section which also had some really good explanations/advice too.
> 
> ...


Emma from the Canine Consultants is Emma Judson who draws the Foul Mouthed Fido cartoons (check them out on Facebook as long as you are not easily offended, they are funny but make very valid points) and is a real expert in separation anxiety.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

JoanneF said:


> Emma from the Canine Consultants is Emma Judson who draws the Foul Mouthed Fido cartoons (check them out on Facebook as long as you are not easily offended, they are funny but make very valid points) and is a real expert in separation anxiety.


I'm not easily offended  but not on Facebook 

Just found a .com site


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

See if this link works - you might be able to view it without actually being a Facebook user

https://www.facebook.com/FoulFido/


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Just seen this on FB
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1861401510635267&id=546743495434415

Well done APDT UK

'Stronger Together.

Further to concerns raised by you the members over a channel 5 programme - Dogs Behaving (Very) Badly and the methods used within in it, I contacted Dogs Trust to see if they would communicate with all the organisations that signed up to a recent initiative to attend a drop in event for MSP's on shock collars. It is an impressive list including (but not limited to) Kennel Club, RSPCA, SRSPCA, Blue Cross, COAPE, ABTC, Batttersea , APDT. Dogs Trust ran with this and contacted each of those on the list asking if they would be happy to sign a letter to the producers expressing all our concerns. They all agreed and the letter below has been sent today.

RE Dogs Behaving (Very) Badly

We have been bitterly disappointed with the advice and techniques used by dog trainer Graeme Hall in the show Dogs Behaving (Very) Badly, currently airing on Tuesday evenings at 8pm.

These outdated and dangerous methods display a limited understanding of dog behaviour and we all very strongly believe they do not have a place in modern dog training.

Our organisations currently face a very significant challenge of trying to ensure that aversive training methods are no longer promoted to dog owners as a quick fix for any unwanted behaviours in place of effective and more ethical positive reinforcement based methods. It is therefore worrying that you are promoting these practices as suitable.

We ask that you strongly reconsider airing the show, we would be pleased to support you in promoting the latest understanding of dog behaviour and appropriate training methods.

Yours Sincerely

Rachel Casey, Director of Canine Behaviour and Research, Dogs Trust'


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

love seeing thing like this


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

I watched Tuesday's episode earlier this evening. That poor terrified collie, and he just stood staring directly at her. No turning away, no making himself smaller and less threatening. What a prat.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Burrowzig said:


> I watched Tuesday's episode earlier this evening. That poor terrified collie, and he just stood staring directly at her. No turning away, no making himself smaller and less threatening. What a prat.


I haven't watched it yet. Went to put in on the other night and OH said "do we have to watch that irritating man!?"
I am curious, but will have to wait until she's out.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Sarah H said:


> T
> I also know someone who handled a stooge dog on an earlier series where a Great Dane was being "trained". The bloke is there for up to a week "training" the dogs, and then on TV it comes across as if it has worked all in the space of about 10 mins!


I as wondering about previous training . The way he got the nervous dog to walk in the high street after apparently in one go . I really dont believe that.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Fleur said:


> Just seen this on FB
> Well done APDT UK
> 
> 'Stronger Together.
> ...


That is so good to read - I doubt that it will make much difference to the programme (who are just after ratings) or indeed some viewers who will prefer the 'quick fix' method but it is good to read that we (collectively those who do employ a positive training approach) are not imagining things and that we (again collectively) are right to be dismayed that such a programme with it's outdated methods is being aired.

J


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

I wonder if the owners have the non-disclosure agreements like MIlan does. @Sarah H, the other trainers in your area who've picked up his pieces, do they know?


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

I don't know why you would go on tv I have had problems with the boxers I find it embarrassing I'd much rather thousands didn't see it. Why not just get a 1:1 trainer do they get paid ?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

It would also be good if the letter was forwarded to This Morning as they had him on last week, promoting the programme 

I’ve emailed DT with the suggestion, giving them TM’s email address 

I’m going to email TM myself too expressing my dismay at their promotion of such training methods.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Boxer123 said:


> I don't know why you would go on tv I have had problems with the boxers I find it embarrassing I'd much rather thousands didn't see it. Why not just get a 1:1 trainer do they get paid ?


You'd think but then look at that programme Embarrassing Bodies (I think that's what it's called) ... people too worried to go to their doctors yet will get their bits out on TV in front of millions!!


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Boxer123 said:


> I don't know why you would go on tv I have had problems with the boxers I find it embarrassing I'd much rather thousands didn't see it. Why not just get a 1:1 trainer do they get paid ?


I assume for 15 minutes of fame and free dog training


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## CheddarS (Dec 13, 2011)

Fleur said:


> Just seen this on FB
> https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1861401510635267&id=546743495434415
> 
> Well done APDT UK
> ...


In addition Steve Mann if the IMDT has had a meeting with C5 to point out their concerns re the programme. I hope it makes them think twice an researching appropriate reward based trainers in future


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Burrowzig said:


> I wonder if the owners have the non-disclosure agreements like MIlan does. @Sarah H, the other trainers in your area who've picked up his pieces, do they know?


No idea. I don't know her very well just sort of a dog training acquaintance. She hasn't had anything to do with his TV work, just that she happens to be in the same area as him and has had to deal with the fallout from his "training" before. I don't think she gets involved with ex-clients anymore from the sound of it.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

Catching up on last weeks now....

Lots of eye rolling from me and that poor Collie....


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Teddy-dog said:


> Catching up on last weeks now....
> 
> Lots of eye rolling from me and that poor Collie....


There was something very odd about the collies reactions when she was muzzled. It looked as if she would literally throw herself down after a few minutes of growling at the trainer. It looked as if she was used to wearing it so I'm not sure if that was why she reacted this way or not, but it was certainly an odd behaviour. 
If anyone's watched that one I would be interested in their thoughts.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

Siskin said:


> There was something very odd about the collies reactions when she was muzzled. It looked as if she would literally throw herself down after a few minutes of growling at the trainer. It looked as if she was used to wearing it so I'm not sure if that was why she reacted this way or not, but it was certainly an odd behaviour.
> If anyone's watched that one I would be interested in their thoughts.


It was odd how it was muzzle on then took barely no time to 'calm down' (not that I think she was calm more shut down or given up...).
Did anyone else think the muzzle looked too small too? I'm not clued up on muzzles and their fit but I remember my nans old rescue dog years ago was muzzled occasionally and he had much more room (if that's the right word), his nose didn't come to the end and I didn't think it looked like the collie could open it's mouth much to pant??

I also didn't get the 'if she hadn't of been muzzled I wouldnve been bitten 4 or 5 times now'. Like that's sort of ok to let them get to that stage? No talk of a dog shouldn't really feel the need to bite as it'll have other signals first or whatever.

I've probably not explained any of that well haha


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Teddy-dog said:


> It was odd how it was muzzle on then took barely no time to 'calm down' (not that I think she was calm more shut down or given up...).
> Did anyone else think the muzzle looked too small too? I'm not clued up on muzzles and their fit but I remember my nans old rescue dog years ago was muzzled occasionally and he had much more room (if that's the right word), his nose didn't come to the end and I didn't think it looked like the collie could open it's mouth much to pant??
> 
> I also didn't get the 'if she hadn't of been muzzled I wouldnve been bitten 4 or 5 times now'. Like that's sort of ok to let them get to that stage? No talk of a dog shouldn't really feel the need to bite as it'll have other signals first or whatever.
> ...


I think you're right, probably is shut down to a large degree although it was odd how she flopped down so quickly and completely zoned out of what was going on. I thought the muzzle was too short as well and definitely not enough room so she could pant


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## Bugsys grandma (Aug 3, 2018)

I'm just watching now, and I think that muzzle is way way too small!


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Siskin said:


> I think you're right, probably is shut down to a large degree although it was odd how she flopped down so quickly and completely zoned out of what was going on. I thought the muzzle was too short as well and definitely not enough room so she could pant


Did anyone actually see her flop down? From what I remember, there were shots with her lunging and carrying on, then cut to a shot where she was lying down. I'll have to have another look.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Burrowzig said:


> Did anyone actually see her flop down? From what I remember, there were shots with her lunging and carrying on, then cut to a shot where she was lying down. I'll have to have another look.


I'm sure I did, it seemed quite a flop rather then a normal lie down


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

Not quite sure why I’m watching again but there’s no much else on! 
Already rolling my eyes!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Teddy-dog said:


> Not quite sure why I'm watching again but there's no much else on!
> Already rolling my eyes!


I can't watch it in the evening sets Loki off all the dogs !


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Boxer123 said:


> I can't watch it in the evening sets Loki off all the dogs !


I can't watch it - it sets me off ...


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

Boxer123 said:


> I can't watch it in the evening sets Loki off all the dogs !


Hahah awww bless him! When we first got Teds we couldn't watch dog programmes either as he'd bark at the tele. Luckily he's over it now (mostly)


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

JoanneF said:


> I can't watch it - it sets me off ...


I'll send Loki your way he doesn't like the idea of being yanked about and then calling it training!


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

JoanneF said:


> I can't watch it - it sets me off ...


Half of the time what annoys me is what how they put things and how the commentator puts things...


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Teddy-dog said:


> Hahah awww bless him! When we first got Teds we couldn't watch dog programmes either as he'd bark at the tele. Luckily he's over it now (mostly)


I like watching the dog rescuerers in the evening Loki has to look behind the tv then in the garden ( which is behind the tv)


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

Boxer123 said:


> I like watching the dog rescuerers in the evening Loki has to look behind the tv then in the garden ( which is behind the tv)


Bless him! So cute


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

just said to Matt
I dont like that jerk on the lead
his response, quicker than i can type it
but Mum, its his programme


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

mrs phas said:


> just said to Matt
> I dont like that jerk on the lead
> his response, quicker than i can type it
> but Mum, its his programme


Hahaha brilliant.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

Everything is just about doing everything so quickly. Let’s introduce two reactive dogs to another dog (ok at a distance) but then get closer and closer within the same session... why not take things slowly?? You can fix it in one session!


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

what has this man got against using harnesses with long lines
does he really just prefer to noose the dogs?

( can you tell this is the first time ive watched it)


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

mrs phas said:


> what has this man got against using harnesses with long lines
> does he really just prefer to noose the dogs?
> 
> ( can you tell this is the first time ive watched it)


God knows he has never suggested using a harness and longline together. 
It annoyed me with the cocker spaniel because to me it looked like a dog that wasn't getting enough stimulation and, maybe he's taught it the off command which will stop the game of chase, but I'm sure it'll find it's own fun another way and the owners will be stuck again!


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Teddy-dog said:


> why not take things slowly


This is the whole reason why I am so averse to these tv programmes. Proper behaviour modification takes ages and frankly, watching a presenter sit for hours in a room on the floor avoiding eye contact with a nervous dog is never going to make good tv. Which is fair enough - but how about let's not try to make it into 'entertainment'. In fairness there have been good ones with Dogs Might Fly being, imo, outstanding for bucking the trend. But sadly most are like this and I just cannot watch them as my tv was too expensive to risk things being thrown at it!


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

JoanneF said:


> This is the whole reason why I am so averse to these tv programmes. Proper behaviour modification takes ages and frankly, watching a presenter sit for hours in a room on the floor avoiding eye contact with a nervous dog is never going to make good tv. Which is fair enough - but how about let's not try to make it into 'entertainment'. In fairness there have been good ones with Dogs Might Fly being, imo, outstanding for bucking the trend. But sadly most are like this and I just cannot watch them as my tv was too expensive to risk things being thrown at it!


Yep that's what annoys me too. But for some reason I watch them, I don't want to say I like watching them because I don't know I am curious I guess!

He would do something the dog would be successful in and then say 'let's up the anti'. Or maybe let's not because if you up the anti every session you're probably going to fail at some point (if not straight away). It gives a false sense that your dog can be barking at other dogs in the morning and a bit of 'training' by the evening they're all cured! I've been working with Teds reactiveness for over a year. I'm no expert so it's taking me longer I'm sure but he is so much better but it's a long term thing not an instant.

He also doesn't address any underlying causes of the behaviour (boredom, lack of stimulation maybe) it's just teach the dog not to do this thing and that's it..


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Teddy-dog said:


> doesn't address any underlying causes of the behaviour


 and that just means the behaviour will be suppressed rather than properly resolved .


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

JoanneF said:


> and that just means the behaviour will be suppressed rather than properly resolved .


Yep I do fear this! I wish we could see a follow up in a few months time to see how the dogs are getting on... though I'm sure they wouldn't show anything that wasn't a 'success'


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

if nothing else the two schnauzers proved litter mate syndrome and how they listen to each other and not you
might stop people getting two as company for each other (yeah i know pigs might fly)

dont think ill be watching again


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I got no response (apart from standard receipt of my email) from DT or TM btw


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

I'm just catching up on the latest two episodes now. OH refuses to watch it as he annoys her too much, whereas I am a glutton for punishment and like having something to rant and rave about!

Yes the poor collie's muzzle was much too small and she clearly wasn't relaxed, but basically learnt that there was no point in reacting because no-one would listen to her. Sigh.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

I've also just noticed that Graeme's own dog wears its collar really high up its neck


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

With the rottie cross, I think it should have been made clear that the behaviour he was exhibiting was actually just over-exuberant play and not aggression at all. There are of course very important differences in the two and how they should be handled. The whole going over-the-top after being in water was simply a case of the dog getting over-excited by the water. Holly did similar when she was younger and always had a bout of the zoomies after coming out of the water, often accompanied by play growling and general silliness.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

Sairy said:


> With the rottie cross, I think it should have been made clear that the behaviour he was exhibiting was actually just over-exuberant play and not aggression at all. There are of course very important differences in the two and how they should be handled. The whole going over-the-top after being in water was simply a case of the dog getting over-excited by the water. Holly did similar when she was younger and always had a bout of the zoomies after coming out of the water, often accompanied by play growling and general silliness.


Omg I completely thought this too! It really annoyed me when everyone kept saying aggressive and that he would 'turn' etc. It offered no explanation as to what behaviour the dog was actually showing which could have helped other people, who have dogs behaving in a similar way, understand their dog. Now they'll probably just think it's aggression.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Teddy-dog said:


> Omg I completely thought this too! It really annoyed me when everyone kept saying aggressive and that he would 'turn' etc. It offered no explanation as to what behaviour the dog was actually showing which could have helped other people, who have dogs behaving in a similar way, understand their dog. Now they'll probably just think it's aggression.


Exactly, and those who have actual issues where their dog could potentially bite for a different reason (e.g. resource guarding) will think that the way to deal with it is by grabbing the dog by the collar and putting it out of the room :Banghead

I didn't appreciate Graeme's comment either about the mix of rottie and rhodesian creating a "powerful and fearsome" mix. Yes the dog will likely grow quite big and strong, but I sensed no malice whatsoever in his behaviour. Just a big clumsy puppy who wanted to play and hadn't been taught appropriate boundaries.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

Sairy said:


> Exactly, and those who have actual issues where their dog could potentially bite for a different reason (e.g. resource guarding) will think that the way to deal with it is by grabbing the dog by the collar and putting it out of the room :Banghead
> 
> I didn't appreciate Graeme's comment either about the mix of rottie and rhodesian creating a "powerful and fearsome" mix. Yes the dog will likely grow quite big and strong, but I sensed no malice whatsoever in his behaviour. Just a big clumsy puppy who wanted to play and hadn't been taught appropriate boundaries.


Oh yeah I didn't like that either. Just feeding into people's prejudices against rotties I think. The commentator also made a few comments about being the boss etc which also annoys me


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

I was confused as to why they kept letting him off lead to go into the water.


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## kirksandallchins (Nov 3, 2007)

These TV programmes make me realise how normal my dogs are. Or maybe I'm such a brilliant trainer I need my own TV show

I always said after Leo my Mini Schnauzer died I was going to write a training manual based on his life with me.

I have only got as far as the title: "Heel you Little B******"


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

The obvious first step with those clearly anxious mini shnauzers was to see how they behaved when they weren't together. And of course they were going to calm down and walk near the other dog once they'd seen he wasn't going to have a go at them. It's so clearly 'keep away' reactivity, not aggression as such. The pitch of their barks tells you that, straight off.
And yes, no explanation that the rottie cross was playing/mouthing, and that the owners were making it worse in the way they were trying to fend him off.
I've recorded the one from the week before, but not looked at it yet.


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

mrs phas said:


> if nothing else the two schnauzers proved litter mate syndrome and how they listen to each other and not you
> might stop people getting two as company for each other (yeah i know pigs might fly)
> 
> dont think ill be watching again


Sadly not, the owner is proudly telling everyone how well they are doing now and being congratulated by other Schnauzer owners on her hard work!

I haven't watched this episode yet I'm torn over whether to watch it as I disliked the first episode so much.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I don't know if I'm glad I can't watch or disappointed as I can't participate in the roasting


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Are we all ready to have our dander put up?


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

mrs phas said:


> Are we all ready to have our dander put up?


I've given up watching it he just riles Loki up!


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

is there really a genetic deficiency in Labradors ?
i know ive seen some sleek looking ones
but
i have to admit theyre normally black labs

@Jamesgoeswalkies you're our lab expert


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

I’ll catch up on it tomorrow probably! OH isn’t keen on it but I’m a glutton for punishment ha!


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## fernlady (Feb 27, 2013)

Aaaaaaaarrrggghhhh!!! Sorry, needed to get that off my chest! I keep getting texts from people saying 'are you watching Dogs behaving badly, the trainer is really good'!!!


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

fernlady said:


> Aaaaaaaarrrggghhhh!!! Sorry, needed to get that off my chest! I keep getting texts from people saying 'are you watching Dogs behaving badly, the trainer is really good'!!!


Oh no! Can you politely say he's rubbish???!


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## fernlady (Feb 27, 2013)

Teddy-dog said:


> Oh no! Can you politely say he's rubbish???!


I don't say it politely!


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## Sandysmum (Sep 18, 2010)

After reading the comments here , I've not bothered watching any of it.


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## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

I dont want to watch it though had to spend time explaining to my OH why he was rubbish, dont think he believed me.

Unfortunately with so many people tuning in they will probably say the viewing figures were really good and make another series


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

mrs phas said:


> is there really a genetic deficiency in Labradors ?
> i know ive seen some sleek looking ones
> but
> i have to admit theyre normally black labs
> ...


Oh no - don't tell me I've got to watch the programme now to see what he is saying about Labs 

J


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Article about the genetic variant thought to affect hunger in labs .... https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news...lp-explain-why-labradors-are-prone-to-obesity


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

Just started catching up only watched 5 minutes and they’re going on about alphas and dog dominating


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

mrs phas said:


> if nothing else the two schnauzers proved litter mate syndrome and how they listen to each other and not you


Fair to say, I think, that there are plenty of dogs out there that behave exactly the same on their own. 
With those 2, I think there was an element of littermate syndrome, but I think it's usually because a dog hasn't been socialised well - either not met enough dogs or has met too many and been overwhelmed. Either way, it's down to anxiety about meeting other dogs and an attempt to keep them away. Often, when released from the lead, the same yapping terror behaves fine, once they can display proper greeting postures and are free to escape if they need to. And 'aggression' doesn't even enter into it.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

I can’t see how the way they taught the lab to leave is actually going to teach the dog to leave..... as they were just saying leave over and over again with no decisive moment of praise. I think it still would have been better to use treats to teach leave as the dog obviously holds such high value for food that saying ‘good girl’ isn’t going to trump getting to the tasty food in the long run?


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## Agandl (Sep 30, 2015)

He is back on C5 :Arghh

His training methods when he was on C4 were so poor that a petition was started to ask for his programmes to be removed from the channel


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