# Very frustrating.



## jasperthecat (Aug 5, 2017)

This is a bit long winded so please bear with me.
My two are driving me to distraction, or should I say Jasper's behaviour is but then again, Ollie must also bear some of the responsibility too as I'll explain.
Ollie who is going on 8 months old now has been with us for the best part of three months and is just about the most perfect kitten/cat one could ever wish for and I would say is just about every cat owner's dream.
Ollie's so affectionate with us that it's hard to believe and better still he absolutely adores Jasper to the extent that he emulates everything he does and is forever going to him and rubbing up him affectionately and he is so non-aggressive.

The problem lies with Jasper and this where the hair-pulling ( mine I should add) starts. Over 95% of the time there aren't any issues between Jasper and Ollie whatsoever and everything is very amiable but it's that few percent of the time which is problematic.

When it's a problem which is mostly a daily occurence, Jasper will pin Ollie down and they roll about tussling which invariably leads to me breaking them up after Ollie lets out one of his usual cries. The crying out isn't in itself unusual or too worrying for me as when we had both him and his sibling brother with us, the rough play between them both was absolutely horrendous and he'd cry out then if he was losing so he was used to very rough play with his brother.

However Jasper, when he's in that mood, seems unable to resist grabbing Ollie and pinning him down by his neck area and eventually either standing over him as Ollie is totally submissive or they end up rolling around the floor with fur flying which is usually Ollies but as soon as I've either broken them up or they have been separated or been given time out, they are both crying to be with each other and Ollie will run to Jasper as soon as he is free to do so, so this bizarre beating up of Ollie by Jasper clearly isn't hurting him sufficiently or causing Ollie to be afraid or avoid him though I have noticed Ollie has learned his place but Jasper is very laid back most of the time, in fact Ollie has got to the stage where he initiates proceedings by swiping playfully at Jasper or leaping at him so it's not entirely all Jasper's fault.

I must emphasise that there has never been any actual blood spilt or biting to injure on Jasper's part and most of the paw slapping is very girlie indeed. I've never once heard Jasper growl or hiss angrily at Ollie though Ollie will occasionally hiss at Jasper is he's being beaten up but within a couple of minutes of these beat ups, they're chasing each other around the house like lunatics as if nothing has happened which is rather confusing for me. 

Yesterday while I was cooking lunch they were at it for a full 15 minutes, first one would chase the other then they would run up to each other and then run away and call for them to chase each other so clearly they have a common bond there and Jasper will always be around Ollie and vice versa. They also play hide and seek and leap out at each other so they clearly must enjoy each other's company. 
The only time they are apart is when they settle down to sleep.
Jasper prefers the landing or our bedroom while Ollie prefers his bed in the dining room...it's sort of his room now. 
However, when one is asleep and the other isn't, the one who isn't asleep wanders around almost aimlessly looking for something to do but they brighten up no end as soon as the other wakes up which suggests they miss each other when not interacting.

Given that Ollie is soon back for more after these incidents and clearly isn't afraid of Jasper and checking over Ollie shows no injuries, I'm beginning to wonder if I'm perhaps over-thinking and over-worrying about these incidents. 

There is one thing that I suspect does wind up Jasper and that is Ollie's eating habits. Ollie is the greediest cat imaginable and would eat everything in sight if we let him and will barge Jasper out of the way if there's food in the bowl and Jasper's feeding. Jasper shows no animosity but I suspect he gets annoyed especially when Ollie eats every scrap.
We bought one of those chip controlled feeders to solve the feeding issue with Ollie but Jasper took an instant dislike to it so it's just stood there unused while Ollie scoffs everything.

We have two litter trays, both the hooded type, one in the dining room for Ollie when he's in residence and the other in the hall which has always been Jasper's. Jasper doesn't use Ollie's as he doesn't like doors on the covered tray but Ollie uses the one in the hall though Jasper doesn't seem to object so I don't think it's that which is causing issues and there haven't been any issues with regard to weeing or pooing outside the litter trays. 

The only other mitigating factor in Jasper's behaviour is that he doesn't actually know how to interact with other cats! Jasper was the hand fed runt of the litter who was actually bullied and marginalised by his siblings due to his small initial size. 
So much so that we had to bring him to our home from my daughter's home who'd bred him at just 8 weeks old for his own well being. It was only after he left his siblings that he began to thrive but he never had that sibling/litter interaction that kittens like Ollie had and which is why Jasper perhaps may not be able to understand how to mix and interact with other cats.
When Ollie and his sibling brother were at our home they used to fight quite violently during sibling play and Jasper was enthralled by this and would watch them for hours and I just get the impression that he is emulating that behaviour when he grabs Ollie but doesn't know how far to take it.

The good thing is that Ollie when I weighed him last week was over 4.3kg and growing at an alarming rate so the weight difference between them should be non-existent by the time Ollie is around twelve months old so he will be much more able to defend himself against Jasper but I'd prefer it if we can dispense with any friction as when they get on together it's so lovely to see.
It could be plain old jealousy as Ollie came in and in theory pushed Jasper's nose out though we do our best to treat them equally, in fact I always give any treats for them to Jasper first in order to maintain his hierarchy. 
Jasper is definitely distracted by Ollie and is less playful with us than he once was unless we can get him on a one to one basis so I suspect Ollie is a replacement for a some of the interaction we once had with him. 
Sometimes they wander about the house together like two delinquent kids looking for mischief to get up to so it's not all bad and I'm sure we can resolve it in due course as the foundation is there but as I am not experienced in multi-cat households, any anecdotal advice from yourselves would be welcome. 

My daughter also suggests that I'm perhaps worrying too much but I just don't want Ollie to be unhappy or get to the point of being afraid of Jasper or injured by him just as I don't want Jasper to feel that way too or left out so any advice or observations would be welcome.


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## ChaosCat (Dec 7, 2017)

Cat play fights can look and sound very horrible and like real aggression when they really are not. 
I think you should try to not step in as long as possible and responsible. Look if they resolve the situation themselves, if Jasper will accept Ollie’s boundaries. Stay by, by all means, have a close look, but unless it gets really aggressive and blood is drawn don’t do anything about it. 
Jasper might learn to play by the rules, Ollie might learn to set up boundaries and you might learn to distinguish between play fights and real aggression.


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## ChaosCat (Dec 7, 2017)

Annie and Bonny at it


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## jasperthecat (Aug 5, 2017)

ChaosCat said:


> Cat play fights can look and sound very horrible and like real aggression when they really are not.
> I think you should try to not step in as long as possible and responsible. Look if they resolve the situation themselves, if Jasper will accept Ollie's boundaries. Stay by, by all means, have a close look, but unless it gets really aggressive and blood is drawn don't do anything about it.
> Jasper might learn to play by the rules, Ollie might learn to set up boundaries and you might learn to distinguish between play fights and real aggression.


Thank you for your reply.
I think you are reaffirming what has been going through my mind but I needed to hear it from others.
Logically, given the size difference between Jasper and Ollie for the moment, if Jasper really meant to inflict injury on Ollie it wouldn't be difficult and apart from lots fur floating around the floor, on inspection I can't find any injuries. 
Also given that Ollie is straight back into things and isn't hiding away and is actually upset when we separate them, like Jasper is, it would seem that Ollie isn't taking it too seriously, which he would I suppose if he was really being hurt. Ollie is also guilty of trying to start things so it's not all Jasper.

This morning my other half who is more relaxed about the whole issue had to intervene as Jasper was really holding Ollie down with his mouth and body and wouldn't let him up and even she grew concerned and had to separate them but later for instance they had a sleep and then they were playfully chasing each other and then spent the afternoon in the bedroom casually laying around with Jasper on our bed and Ollie on the window sill as usual. They keep following each other or looking for one another, in fact at this moment Ollie is creeping up and stalking Jasper so perhaps I'm being overly anxious.

In the past few days I've noticed Jasper occasionally sniffing Ollie's head and neck and actually attempting to lightly lick his fur so it's possible he just may be he's warming to him.

In the past few weeks I have to some degree stepped back unlike at first where the first sign of a spat they were split up but then I left it a little longer and most of the time it broke up without intervention other than a clap of the hands unless it looked to be getting out of hand but being concerned for their safety and wellbeing, I guess I'm just a little too overprotective which I know I will have to address.

Jasper used to wake us every morning about 5.30 - 6.00am wanting us to get up and would wowl on until we did but these days it's Ollie who does that while Jasper remains fast asleep.

They also seemed to bond better at the caravan too...no fall outs but it's not much fun at 4.30am when two cats one of over 4Kg and the other getting on for 6Kg hurl themselves around the caravan for 15 minutes chasing each other like lunatics resulting in them both leaping onto us while sleeping which is no fun when a 6kg cat lands on you after leaping.

I think I'm just going step further back and only intervene if absolutely necessary as they will have to learn to share the space.


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## jasperthecat (Aug 5, 2017)

About midnight the boys were chasing each other around the house, including Ollie chasing Jasper.

This morning they were at it again. Later in the morning, Ollie decided he wanted to sleep...he can sleep anywhere at any time can little Ollie...( maybe he's narcoleptic or suffers from idiopathic hypersomnia ), anyway Jasper kept coming to the dining room to see if he'd woken up and was wandering around the house thoroughly miserable and kept calling for him to play.

At lunchtime I opened a pack of fresh minced steak and gave some to each of them. Ollie is the greedy one but the slowest eater of the two and while Ollie was finishing off, Jasper was wandering down the hallway calling for him again.

I can see that sometimes Ollie will infuriate Jasper with his constant pushing in and taking over ( which kittens usually do) as Jasper is much more reserved and it appears to be a love hate relationship on occasions but clearly for the vast majority of the time Jasper enjoys Ollie's company as the two are alway close together and even wander around like twins at times and it's not just Ollie who seeks out Jasper, it's Jasper seeking out Ollie too and calling for him to play. Ollie doesn't like it when Jasper's asleep and he too wanders around looking miserable too just like Jasper.

I think if they really disliked each other they would behave very differently and I suspect things would be far, far worse between them so I think as I can't keep them apart or watch them 24/7 I just need to keep to the background and let them sort out any differences themselves as up to now other than a bit of Ollie's fur strewn around the floor, nothing worse has happened and Ollie's growing at an alarming rate so Jasper won't always have it all his own way.


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## sandy-cat (Feb 24, 2018)

Hi @jasperthecat - what you are experiencing sounds not unlike Fili and Sandy. The pics you've shared look a lot like what I see between Fili and Sandy - good old wrestling but no actual aggression/fear. Fili definitely annoys Sandy as he pokes at him when he wants to sleep (and I have found bits of Sandy's fluff around the house).

The best tip I had is from my catsitter. Feed the resident cat first. Even just by a few seconds. It makes it clear that the older/resident cat is "top cat" and where, like us, our resident cat is so gentle, it is supposed to help them feel more confident with the new cat. It sounds silly but it has really worked for us - Sandy was initially quite submissive and a bit shy, but since I started feeding him first and making it clear that he gets food first, he really grew in confidence.

So now, when they are both calm they are happy to bump noses, sleep near each other and otherwise act as partners in crime (especially at dinner time!). Still, sometimes Fili is excessively kittenish and wants to play while Sandy is pretty laid back and has no interest. Sandy is a very chilled out cat and is still not keen on playfights. Playtime here however then tends to be fairly balanced since I initiated the feeding order. Sandy will "go for" Fili, but only in terms of grabbing him and giving him a smack if he's being irritating.  No claws, no blood, no hissing, spitting, growling or bushy tails. It's his way, as a cat, I think, of making it clear that he's not interested in play.

Fili sometimes pounces on Sandy and he does pluck out fur - mainly because Sandy is extremely fluffy for a DSH! But the main thing is that it's all pretty equal - they both have a go at each other, neither of them does it with claws out (intentionally - Fili's claws are still a little sharper than I'd like), there's no sign of aggression and they both settle down quite quickly after. I'm not saying they snuggle up together, but they are perfectly happy in the same room as each other.


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## jasperthecat (Aug 5, 2017)

Hi @sandi-cat - thanks for your reply, much of which sounds very familiar.
We've tried to feed Jasper first but Ollie being Ollie, with no respect for his elders where food is concerned will barge Jasper out of the way for his food and poor Jasper ends up wandering off which we don't like. This is why we bought the chip feeder, so that only Jasper could feed from it but he didn't like the movement of the lid and refused to use it.

Of course that didn't deter Ollie and he will use the feeder quite happily when we have his chip logged in. We had hoped that Jasper on seeing Ollie use it, would do the same but he didn't. However, I may just put in some of his favourite roast beef or fresh minced steak in the feeder to attract him with the smell which may encourage him to feed from it once he realises the benefits of using the feeder.
We didn't rush it or expect him to accept feeding from it immediately and we followed the manufacturers guidelines for the cat's introduction to the feeder but to no avail but I think we just need to persevere as I'm quite sure that Ollie's feeding behaviour irritates Jasper underneath.
I also suspect Ollie's jumping in and spoiling or interrupting Jasper's one to one play with us which is quiite understandable as he's still a kitten is also upsetting Jasper so we're addressing that too by more one to one play while keeping Ollie in a separate area while we intereact with Jasper.

Yesterday we had my OH's mum's dog for the day while her mum visited her very elderderly mum. Jasper is ok with him and Ollie is very confident around him and will get to within of sniffing distance all of the time and we're able to let all three of them mix unrestricted in the lounge without issue though we wouldn't leave them together unchaperoned. They've got used to him coming to stay overnight etc and are OK with it but they do react differently when he's there even if there are no issues between them and the dog.

When he visits, Jasper and Ollie are as I would describe it, are very together and behaving much like they were siblings rather than two individual cats...I think there's perhaps a bit of the 'common enemy' thing going on with them which perhaps pushes them closer together. Couple that with Jasper's clear invitations for Ollie to chase and intereact with him plus wanting to be near him most of the time, it's clear that Jasper doesn't hate him or he wouldn't want any interaction so we have just got try eliminate the sources of irritation which triggers Jasper.

Ollie has 'his' room which he uses for sleeping at night although he does have run of the house but prefers the dining room. We also leave him food and water in there too but he was still feding on Jasper's food and water in the hall. jasper prefers to feed in the hall as he's always done but Ollie will scoff Jasper's food and leave him none, even though he may have food left in his own bowl.
Ollie really shouldn't be eating or at least shouldn't have been eating Jasper's food given he will eat anything put in front of him but he had a very easily upset sensitive tummy when he came to us and he ended up eating Jasper's RC Adult BSH dry food as it agreed with him. We did try him on RC kitten food but he just didn't like it and it too, as well as wet food left him with protracted tummy upsets which turned out to be food sensitive. Since eating Jasper's adult food he's not suffered one bout of tummy upset, he's thriving but not putting on too much weight which is a side effect of the kitten food...adult food is less fattening so to avoid Ollie scoffing the last of Jasper's food, in the past few days I've put down two bowls of food and one of water next to each other in the hall where Jasper feeds, keeping the bowls topped up so that Jasper doesn't get annoyed with Ollie for taking the last bit and while it's early days, it does seem to be working as the beat ups have reduced considerably. 

Let's hope that continues.

Edit: Just noticed that I wrote @sandi-cat with a capital 'S' so sorry to @Sandi for the confusion.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

@JasperCat - cats who are housemates can get on well and be playful and sociable together. But as you have observed there can be issues of competition between them which can cause arguments or fights. This is normal for cats, as they are very protective of their resources. It leads to a more harmonious feline relationship if competition for resources can be reduced.

I think it's possible Jasper hasn't persevered with learning to use his feeder because Ollie is often there barging in. The best thing would be to feed Ollie and Jasper in separate rooms when you are there to supervise. Or feed them in the same room at different heights, e.g. one on the floor and one on a table, or shelf at the other side of the room. (even a worktop if you don't mind allowing one of them worktop access from now on).

My inclination would be to feed Jasper on the shelf or table, at a height he can easily manage to jump up and down safely. And feed Ollie on the floor. You will no doubt need to supervise at first until Jasper trusts he is safe from Ollie butting in, and Ollie learns he is not allowed on Jasper's shelf.

I understand the reason for giving Ollie adult food but the fact is most adult dry foods contain less protein and fats than kitten dry foods, and so Ollie would need more of the adult version to satisfy his nutritional needs.

However adult dry foods usually contain considerably more carbs than kitten food, and carbs cause undesirable peaks and troughs in blood sugar levels. This means when the blood sugar is low it can cause periods of intense hunger, particularly so in an active, highly energetic kitten.

Have you tried supplementing Ollie's dry food with some cooked or raw meat every day so he gets extra meat protein to keep him satiated for longer? It's OK health-wise for 20% of his diet to be complementary (incomplete). If you decided to do this I would also give him some meat that has a bit of fat with it, or add a little goose fat to it. (enough fat to cover the very end of a butter knife).Note that too much fat can cause a loose bowel in some cats.


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## jasperthecat (Aug 5, 2017)

chillminx said:


> @JasperCat - cats who are housemates can get on well and be playful and sociable together. But as you have observed there can be issues of competition between them which can cause arguments or fights. This is normal for cats, as they are very protective of their resources. It leads to a more harmonious feline relationship if competition for resources can be reduced.
> 
> I think it's possible Jasper hasn't persevered with learning to use his feeder because Ollie is often there barging in. The best thing would be to feed Ollie and Jasper in separate rooms when you are there to supervise. Or feed them in the same room at different heights, e.g. one on the floor and one on a table, or shelf at the other side of the room. (even a worktop if you don't mind allowing one of them worktop access from now on).
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply @chillminx - I realise the adult food is lacking in protein which is why we supplement both Jasper ( you'll know what Jasper is like from all of my previous posts about his feeding issues) and now Ollie, with cooked meats and raw minced steak etc and both are doing extremely well. Jasper has access to his dry food 24/7 as does Ollie now and when weighed during his 6 monthly checkups, Jasper never gained even a gram of extra weight in the period between 18 months and 2 years old so he doesn't overeat. I do also occasionally give Ollie half sachets of popular wet food occasionally which he is happy to eat but too much and his tummy suffers so, we watch what he eats carefully and adjust accordingly.

We try to feed them separately but Ollie is as agile at around 8 months old as Jasper is even now and other than the kitchen worktops which Jasper isn't supposed to be allowed on for safety and hygiene reasons, Ollie is actually capable of jumping onto them now himself but he tends to follow Jasper's example so feeding at different heights wouldn't prevent Ollie from leaping up and still pushing Jasper out of the way.
When we feed them supplementary meats etc, that's always in the kitchen and supervised by ourselves so we stop any barging in it's tracks and since I've put down two bowls of dry food in the hallway along with a larger bowl of water in between, it seems that much of the tension has waned and the biggest issue now is Ollie not playing with Jasper when Ollie is tired. Jasper was doing all he could today to wake Ollie up this morning by dashing around and calling for him so it's not all friction thank goodness.

I hate to say this but Ollie is a greedy little fella...somewhat jealous too but very affectionate and not malicious in any way. If I play with Jasper he wants to be in on the act and can't bear to be left out. He sees food as his and when he first came he would rush to protect the food if Jasper went near 'his' bowls in the dining room. There is a hint of it still there but that behaviour has mostly disappeared. 
Although he seems to be always at the food bowl, Ollie is actually a very slow eater which makes his feeding sessions seem as though he is eating more than he should but in reality is probably only eating just enough along with his meat supplements to give him decent growth which is quite good at the moment. I don't think he is particularly hungry as he always has access to food.. he just sees food and has to eat it....I always joke he's on the proverbial see food diet!

If I can eliminate any sources of conflict I feel sure that they will be the best of buddies... The day I took Ollie in his carrier to be neutered, Jasper was distraught as he thought he wasn't coming back as he'd seen Ollie's sibling brother taken away by my daughter after we'd chosen to keep Ollie out of the two kittens and it was only when Jasper was able to see him at the vets when he went for his 6 monthly check up that his face lit up when they brought Ollie through to see him, as we'd arranged for Jasper to have his 6 month check when I went to pick Ollie up.

Until they brought Ollie through to Jasper at the vets, Jasper wouldn't come out of the carrier which is so extremely out of character for him. I'd never seen him behave like that, I even asked the check if he was ill but he was physically very well. After he saw Ollie he was fine so I do think he is attached to Ollie even if he does p him off a little at times.

I'm going to persevere with Ollie and maybe find wet food that suits him and his sensitive tummy as unlike Jasper he will eat it most foods put in front of him. It's just the effect which is the issue but I'm sure, just we found that Jasper's adult food suited Ollie, I'm sure other foods will too. I dropped a small piece of cooked potato on the floor by mistake the other day and he wolfed it down he's definitely not a Jasper style of cat.

It might be that the two separate bowls kept topped up in the hall is a good enough solution to the issue of food barging by Ollie as there will be no competition but if not, I'll re-introduce Jasper to the chip feeder. He had about 2-3 weeks of introduction without success so next time we'll try it even longer.


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## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

It looks like rough play aggression IME. I remember we had two cats when I was a kid who got on very well.....until feeding time. They used to stare each other out, then start bopping each other. I always thought it was hilarious. 
They also used to play fight a lot, which was more aggressive but never seemed nasty. It often started when one of them went too far and the other got wound up.
Maybe Jasper simply has more energy than Ollie, and likes to get his energy out this way. Maybe you could get Jasper (and Ollie too), a toy he could catch, kick and "kill". Maybe having a good play session would help? Or, if you see things escalating, get the toy out and distract him. A "flying frenzy" would be good for this as he could see you wiggling it out of the corner of his eye and maybe it could distract him.

They actually just sound like good friends, like brothers who like each other, but just argue.


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## jasperthecat (Aug 5, 2017)

Jackie C said:


> It looks like rough play aggression IME. I remember we had two cats when I was a kid who got on very well.....until feeding time. They used to stare each other out, then start bopping each other. I always thought it was hilarious.
> They also used to play fight a lot, which was more aggressive but never seemed nasty. It often started when one of them went too far and the other got wound up.
> Maybe Jasper simply has more energy than Ollie, and likes to get his energy out this way. Maybe you could get Jasper (and Ollie too), a toy he could catch, kick and "kill". Maybe having a good play session would help? Or, if you see things escalating, get the toy out and distract him. A "flying frenzy" would be good for this as he could see you wiggling it out of the corner of his eye and maybe it could distract him.
> 
> They actually just sound like good friends, like brothers who like each other, but just argue.


Hi @Jackie C - It's amazing what you find out if one looks ...I saw one reason last night why Jasper got annoyed with Ollie and it's made me look at it in a slightly different way.
My OH had been playing with Ollie for quite a while with a fishing rod Da Bird type of toy and he was racing after it like a cat possessed watched by Jasper. Ollie's got so much energy it's incredible. When they chase each other, Jasper simply can't catch Ollie, he's so fast.

Anyway, as Ollie was resting, Jasper went over to the fishing rod where she'd placed it and nudged it as if to say he too wanted to play so I picked it up and just as he was about to pounce, who should butt in but Ollie. I had to stop the play as it put Jasper off and Ollie laid down...
Jasper then walked over to him and was about to grab him as he was really miffed about that Ollie had done so we sort of intervened ...clearly it's instances like that which annoys Jasper. He's been angry with him since then so it's clear he doesn't like being marginalised by Ollie.
Jasper then went over to the toy where the ball rolls around in the trough while the cat bats it with their paws and began playing with it while laid outstretched teasing Ollie...Ollie plays for hours with it and when Ollie came over to have a go, Jasper sat up and gave him a very serious look and Ollie backed off. . then Ollie laid down and started playing with a another toy and again Jasper went over to him and Ollie again backed off so Jasper was actually exerting his authority and putting Ollie in his place for once which he hasn't been doing up to now. Up to now Jasper has been too forgiving and submissive in one way but obviously annoyed in others.

However, I just noticed later that Jasper's anger had eventually turned into a 'chase me' scenario where Jasper was racing around wowling for Ollie to come after him and chase him so the aggravation/aggression can be deflected naturally between them. This morning my OH reported that Jasper had again gone for him so it does need addressing.
I think to resolve the issues, I'm going to have to work on putting Jasper first with regard to play as clearly he wants to play just as he used to but he finds it difficult to do so when Ollie is around and ends up being left out because he can't interact with us while Ollie around and is getting frustrated.
In retrospect, inability to interact was a major concern when he was a tiny kitten. He was the hand fed runt and only about 2/3rds of the weight of his siblings when born and was marginalised and bullied by them which was the main reason why we brought him home at just 8 weeks old to give him a chance, after which he immediately began to thrive but he clearly found it very difficult to interact with his siblings at that time so there could be some residual issues there which make it difficult to fully interact with Ollie and again in retrospect, he is now doing what he did when I was observing him as a kitten with his siblings...watching rather than interacting.

If they could send men to the moon all those years ago, I'm sure I can with patience and clearly a bit more understanding, resolve the issues as generally they get on very well most of the time so it's up to me to push the inclusivity more Jasper's way and let Ollie take a back seat just a little until I can get Jasper to be more confident with regard to play and interaction between him and Ollie and us as a family.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I used to hold the kitten while I played with the older adults. Let the kitten have a good go to tire himself, then pick him up and hold him firmly but kindly while you play with the adults. I then would let the kitten down after a bit to re-engage in play. This way, all of mine learned that, even if they had a rest inbetween and let others have a turn, the toy would still be there when they wanted another go. Takes time and patience, but it's worked for me.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

@jasperthecat - when cats and kittens play with toys it is mock hunting for prey (or practice in honing hunting skills). Domestic cats are solitary hunters, they never hunt in pairs, which is why they like to chase their pretend prey on their own. None of my cats or kittens have ever liked to play with me or my OH with the rod toys at the same time. When my girls were kittens my OH and I used to separate them to different rooms for playtime, one kitten with me, one kitten with him.


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## Ottery (Jun 14, 2019)

I currently have four cats who will just about share a rod toy game although one tends to dominate (it depends on the toy - if it involves feathers no one else gets a look in, but he will share other toys). But in the past I have had to do as others said and shut one cat out of the room to give another cat a go. The cat who currently wants to dominate games is 8 months old and is the youngest - kittens are just pushy in general whether it's with food or toys. They may grow out of it, depending on their temperament.


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## jasperthecat (Aug 5, 2017)

chillminx said:


> @jasperthecat - when cats and kittens play with toys it is mock hunting for prey (or practice in honing hunting skills). Domestic cats are solitary hunters, they never hunt in pairs, which is why they like to chase their pretend prey on their own. None of my cats or kittens have ever liked to play with me or my OH with the rod toys at the same time. When my girls were kittens my OH and I used to separate them to different rooms for playtime, one kitten with me, one kitten with him.


@chillminx .. I realise that cats are generally solitary hunters and appreciate what you're saying but I've watched my daughter's cats and their kittens ( those she's bred) on a number of occasions play and chase a large green laser pointer ( bird scarer) together as a group around her spacious home ...they will chase it as a group ranging from the kittens to their mums on the mostly tiled floors sliding and slithering around and they love it . There is no hierarchy or sideline watching, they all seem to participate.

My two also hunt as a pair when there are flies or moths in the house...they both chase around together, especially in the caravan where flies etc frequently enter, trying to catch them so they do interact that way and if one starts chasing a fly etc, it's not long before the other joins in if the other one doesn't catch it and then the two of them try to get it.

The other week they were looking up at the landing ceiling very perturbed and mouthing silent mews and when I looked up, there was the biggest spider I've ever seen on the wall. It was huge and I left them to it and went downstairs to make a cuppa. Ollie followed but Jasper stayed to keep an eye on it. A minute or so later there was a huge bounding sound and it appeared the spider had either fallen or deliberately dropped to hallway with Jasper in pursuit. However it was so large and spiders never bothered him before, even Jasper was a bit scared of it and backed off when in ran toward him and then Ollie had joined him by this time and between them they sorted it out and worked as a team, first one then the other to defeat it so they do work together

I can actually get my two to 'briefly' play together and interact with wand toys but whether I can take it further due to Ollie dominating the play is another question. They both play differently. Jasper is and always has been very much a watcher and as he's got older, any 'attacks' on the prey toys are measured sudden bursts just as they would be if he was big cat like a leopard really going in for the kill unlike Ollie where he just wants to play 24/7.
We're going to give Jasper some extra 'me time' just so that he doesn't feel overshadowed by Ollie and allow Jasper to return to his former play. Ollie is Ollie and up for play at any time so it won't affect him being sidelined briefly by being left in another room or with one of us..


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Jasperthecat, I find that my active cats, my neuters and kittens (when I had more than I do now) all played in a huge group too, bar 1 or 2 who would really dominate the play and make the others quite despondant. This is why I suggested what I did to you, as I've found that it's very important for the play dominating kitten to see th emore submissive cat or cats having a turn. I normally hold, or get someone to hold, the kitten until the others are winding down with their playor have had a good fill of it. It's important to let the dominating kitten play first to burn off a bit of the zoomy juice, and only then should you pick up and hold, and then engage the more submissive cat. It's equally as important to allow the zoomer to do a bit of zooming once your quieter lad has had a chance to play. This teaches your zoomer, or any zoomer for that matter, that the toy doesn't run away or escape if he gives what he views as the slower hunter, a chance to catch it uninterrupted. I have had to do this with every single litter I've had, with every new kitten addition to the household, and it has always resulted in a group of cats who happily work cooperatively to catch toys when they come out.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

I think it's a little dangerous to anthropomorphise our cats as they aren't human and don't think and feel like humans do. Thinking they do can make you read a situation completely wrong as it's being done from a human not a cat perspective.


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## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

They do sound like a pair who have plenty of energy, but let it out in different ways!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

MilleD said:


> I think it's a little dangerous to anthropomorphise our cats as they aren't human and don't think and feel like humans do. Thinking they do can make you read a situation completely wrong as it's being done from a human not a cat perspective.


I completely agree MilleD.  Cats have their own instincts and drives when it comes to play and my feeling is we should accept them as they are and not try to change their behaviour to fit our own agenda. If their behaviour was harmful to us, or damaging to our homes, then it might be different.

I don't really understand why it's important to have kittens or adult cats playing together at the same time with their human companion? What's wrong with each cat having their own separate playtime with their human(s)? e.g. play with one cat while the other one's asleep.

Even my 2 girls when they were only 4 months old (and great pals) were much happier having their own individual play sessions with me or my OH. I wouldn't have dreamt of trying to "train" them out of it. I was happy to let them be themselves and show me what they wanted.

What I've observed with my cats, past and present, is that chasing flying insects is fair game for anyone who wants to have a go. But flying insects are not prey for cats in the sense they provide a meal. Different etiquette appears to apply when it comes to rodents and birds, as they are food. With previous outdoor cats I often observed the male cat playing with a live mouse (in the garden) while his sister sat quietly watching. On other occasions it was the female cat who had the live mouse while her brother sat watching from the sidelines. i.e normal feline behaviour.


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## jasperthecat (Aug 5, 2017)

chillminx said:


> I completely agree MilleD.  Cats have their own instincts and drives when it comes to play and my feeling is we should accept them as they are and not try to change their behaviour to fit our own agenda. If their behaviour was harmful to us, or damaging to our homes, then it might be different.
> 
> I don't really understand why it's important to have kittens or adult cats playing together at the same time with their human companion? What's wrong with each cat having their own separate playtime with their human(s)? e.g. play with one cat while the other one's asleep.
> 
> ...


With respect @chillminx I think we are diverging somewhat from the point here. The only change in cat behaviour I want to see is Jasper's apparent need for use of a better phrase, to beat Ollie up and find the causes and solutions to this which ultimately lies with us the owners of the cats and effect a change in our behaviour rather than just the cat's.

If they can both interact together during play then fine and would be ideal but if it has to remain as each playing and interacting with us individually then I'm good with that too.
My aim is to simply resolve the friction between the two of them and not expect to play happy families although it would be good if harmony in that way could be achieved though highly unlikely. 
One factor which is very important is that both cats are indoor only, therefore there is no outside stimulation for either of them to divert or deflect any indoor anger issues so an approach to resolving any issues might suit one family situation but may not be appropriate in another.
Both Ollie and Jasper have very different characters and we've tried not to change those individual characteristics though I do want their characters to fit in with our lifestyle too and fortunately they do as is evident with taking both with us to our caravan on a regular basis without issue.

Strangely there is never any friction between them whatsoever when they are at the caravan and the lack of friction lasts for up to two days after we return home so it may be a combination of things including underlying territorial issues.
It's definitely not a case of anthropomorphism...it's hardly difficult to recognise that Jasper is clearly in some ways put out by Ollie's presence and behaviour even though it would appear on the surface that Jasper is accepting of him generally and even enjoys his presence and interaction with him for the majority of the time which is why I find it as in the title of this thread, very frustrating.

Since Ollie arrived, Jasper hasn't played and interacted as he once did with us even when Ollie isn't present although with perseverance that is changing slightly. Ollie is extremely playful and on the occasions when Jasper clearly wants to join in with our play with Ollie, he is reluctant to participate as boisterous Ollie inevitably takes over and Jasper is left marginalised as a result. This reflects his behaviour and treatment by his siblings as a kitten. He didn't fit in then and was rather awkward and overwhelmed by his sibling's play which possibly explains his reluctance to interact in play now.

In trying to find a solution to the spats, I've observed that Ollie is not the outwardly idealised kitten he appears to be and can be quite attention seeking and actually very often jealous of our interaction with Jasper and will come and push in when he sees it happening and it's not just occasionally. This happens not only during play but also if we're just giving Jasper one to one attention. Ollie's behaviour also irritates Jasper as was clearly evident the other evening when Ollie pushed in just as Jasper began to interact my our play with him. Jasper was clearly very annoyed which triggered an aggressive response which lasted quite a while in him being in a grumpy mood which thankfully eventually subsided and ended up with Jasper running around calling for Ollie to play with and chase him, hence again why I find it frustrating.

As already stated, I don't anthropomorphise with regard to animals but from my observations so far, cats such as Ollie and Jasper can at times behave not unlike toddlers, but however we look at it, if we want to resolve Jasper's friction issue then it's our job as owners to first change our own behaviour in order to change theirs.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

chillminx said:


> I completely agree MilleD.  Cats have their own instincts and drives when it comes to play and my feeling is we should accept them as they are and not try to change their behaviour to fit our own agenda. If their behaviour was harmful to us, or damaging to our homes, then it might be different.
> 
> I don't really understand why it's important to have kittens or adult cats playing together at the same time with their human companion? What's wrong with each cat having their own separate playtime with their human(s)? e.g. play with one cat while the other one's asleep.
> 
> ...


This is how my 4 play. If I get a rod toy out or something, I can sometimes get two going for it, but when they notice there is another cat involved, there is very often and tiny spat and one will leave the interaction to let the other one get on with it. My 4 probably think they have more in common with me than the other cats to be honest the way they act.

Teddi and Ralph will occasionally have a wrestle, and then a lick, but it doesn't happen very often.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

jasperthecat said:


> In trying to find a solution to the spats, I've observed that Ollie is not the outwardly idealised kitten he appears to be and can be quite attention seeking and actually very often jealous of our interaction with Jasper and will come and push in when he sees it happening and it's not just occasionally. This happens not only during play but also if we're just giving Jasper one to one attention. Ollie's behaviour also irritates Jasper as was clearly evident the other evening when Ollie pushed in just as Jasper began to interact my our play with him. Jasper was clearly very annoyed which triggered an aggressive response which lasted quite a while in him being in a grumpy mood which thankfully eventually subsided and ended up with Jasper running around calling for Ollie to play with and chase him, hence again why I find it frustrating.


Then you need to give Jasper attention on his own away from where Ollie can get to him.



jasperthecat said:


> As already stated, *I don't anthropomorphise *with regard to animals but from my observations so far, cats such as Ollie and Jasper can at times *behave not unlike toddlers*, but however we look at it, if we want to resolve Jasper's friction issue then it's our job as owners to first change our own behaviour in order to change theirs.


You just did a little bit...


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

@jasperthecat, I do understand you want to try and resolve or reduce the spats between Ollie and Jasper. That is important. laudable, and something I would see as essential to attend to in my own household.

It sounds as though Ollie has an assertive, very confident nature, and is very eager to claim the feline resources in the home for himself. (e.g. food, toys, access to his human companions). This is normal behaviour for (some) cats, and from my perspective to refer to it as "attention seeking" and "jealous" sounds pejorative and imparting human values to it (as one might if referring to a pushy human being)

But of course I do agree you can't just allow a situation where Ollie pushes Jasper around, upsets him, sidelines him or causes him to feel deprived of his resources. Jasper needs support and opportunities created where he can express his own personality. As you say he has a history as a kitten of being bullied by his litter mates, so it is not a scenario you want repeated.

I am not of the 'school' that advocates just 'letting the cats/kittens get on with it'. Far from it. I want every one of my cats to have the opportunity to express their nature and character as much as possible, without other members of the group feeling intimidated or pushed out. To this end, I have found that providing opportunities for each cat to take time apart from the others, is very important.

My garden plays a big role in this. By cat proofing it so no strange cats can get in, I have actually enlarged my cats' "core" territory so it is much larger than just the house and this is to the benefit of the cats. My garden is L shaped and has a number of different areas to it, including a shaded copse, vertical space (trees to climb), a glazed gazebo which the cats use from choice in all weathers, and lots of large shrubs for the cats to tuck themselves away under, out of sight.

For owners who don't have a garden, or any safe access to outdoors, I would 'catify' the indoor core territory by imaginative use of the overhead space. I think this is particularly important where there are quite a few competition issues similar to those between Jasper and Ollie.

e.g.

https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs..._extension&hspart=pty&hsimp=yhs-pty_extension

I understand from what you say that both your cats seem quite obsessed with each other and both call out for the other to come and play etc, but this play has an underlying purpose and is a challenge from each cat where rights to the feline resources in the home are re-enacted constantly. Nothing wrong with that now and then, but not so good if it becomes an obsession for them. However I do have to remind myself this is not a contest between two equals, as Ollie is still a youngster, establishing his role in life, and is not yet up-to-speed on all aspects of cat etiquette.

The reason there are fewer (or no) spats when the cats are with you at the caravan is because the caravan is regarded as "neutral territory" by both cats. If they were to spend any time together there (e.g,. a few months at a time ) I'd expect Ollie's natural ebullience and instinct to assert himself over Jasper, to reappear.


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## jasperthecat (Aug 5, 2017)

@chillminx I largely agree with everything you've said, particularly regarding the caravan and neutral territory.
However, at the caravan Ollie even took over Jasper's favourite nearside under seat locker sleeping place which he'd had since he was tiny a kitten but we managed to avert friction by putting Jasper's favourite blanket which we always take and placed it in the offside locker which can actually be accessed via a tunnel between the two under seat lockers so he was very happy as he can still retain his very own sleeping space away from everyone and everything. Jasper has always been laid back and relaxed at the caravan and it hasn't changed with the arrival of Ollie.

At home Ollie has chosen the dining room as very his own space and although he has access to all of the house just like Jasper, it's his room for sleeping in for longer periods or lazing about ;looking out of the window and it's quite funny to see him toddle off and settle down for the night.
Jasper actually respects this and there's rarely ever any conflict in there and it's very often just play when there is contact in the dining area. The same goes for Ollie, he respects Jasper when he's sleeping which during the day is in our bedroom on the floor or on the landing on his barrel bed.

We don't normally allow them unsupervised access to the lounge so neither can lay claim to territorial rights and again we see no conflict between them while they're in there with us. When my OH's mums dog comes to stay with us, all three are free to wander around in there while we're supervising and nothing untoward ever happens between all three of them.

I too don't like the let them sort it out between them approach which is why I'm trying to rectify the problem before it becomes entrenched or either cats are seriously injured. If Ollie was perhaps a year old instead of nearer 8 months I might be less concerned as he'd be big enough to deter Jasper but even though Ollie is getting on for 4.5kg, he's no match for Jasper at present as he has grown into a rather strong, lean and healthy cat, even if Ollie's not afraid of him.

I was awake at 3.45am as I'd fallen asleep on top of the bed at about 10.00pm and Jasper jumped onto our bed and was kneading his blanket which is always at the end of the duvet. Ollie was on the windowsill watching and saw me moving my hand under the blanket teasing Jasper which he likes. Ollie then jumped down off the windowsill and onto the bed so I stopped as I didn't want it escalate to anything at that time of the morning and Ollie sat back a couple of feet away but then leapt at Jasper and girlie slapped his back for no reason and then ran off so the conflict is not all at Jasper's instigation.

I've solved the issue of feeding competition and hallway spats by placing two bowls and a large bowl of water in the hall, ensuring they are always kept topped up so neither cat has to compete for the food resources.
Originally Ollie had his feeding station in the dining room and Jasper had his in the hallway but when they were allowed to mix after the initial introduction period, Ollie laid claim to both lots of food so we've got only one place for feeding now except when they are fed their meat jointly in the kitchen and has resulted in no friction regarding food.

I think my next task is to identify each individual source of possible conflict and rectify them as I go along.

We've been discussing the option of outdoor access. Cat proofing the garden isn't an option but I may get on and build a lean-to cattio so that they can access the outside via a window or tunnel.


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## jasperthecat (Aug 5, 2017)

MilleD said:


> Then you need to give Jasper attention on his own away from where Ollie can get to him.
> 
> You just did a little bit...


Well if you're going to be like that... " *My 4 probably think they have more in common with me than the other cats to be honest the way they act*.",..... now I wonder who said that?

I suppose we all anthropomorphise at some point or other even subconsciously, I try not to but occasionally it happens.
In any case as you suggest I'm going to give Jasper more one to one play time to see if that helps.


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## jasperthecat (Aug 5, 2017)

carly87 said:


> Jasperthecat, I find that my active cats, my neuters and kittens (when I had more than I do now) all played in a huge group too, bar 1 or 2 who would really dominate the play and make the others quite despondant. This is why I suggested what I did to you, as I've found that it's very important for the play dominating kitten to see th emore submissive cat or cats having a turn. I normally hold, or get someone to hold, the kitten until the others are winding down with their playor have had a good fill of it. It's important to let the dominating kitten play first to burn off a bit of the zoomy juice, and only then should you pick up and hold, and then engage the more submissive cat. It's equally as important to allow the zoomer to do a bit of zooming once your quieter lad has had a chance to play. This teaches your zoomer, or any zoomer for that matter, that the toy doesn't run away or escape if he gives what he views as the slower hunter, a chance to catch it uninterrupted. I have had to do this with every single litter I've had, with every new kitten addition to the household, and it has always resulted in a group of cats who happily work cooperatively to catch toys when they come out.


Hi @carly87 ...I don't know what happened but twice I've gone to reply to you and it's ended in well I don't know.?.

Anyway thanks for replies. I like your approach and I'll try your ideas a try as I'm open to try anything that will alleviate the causes of friction as most of the time Jasper isn't always aggressive toward Ollie...much of the time they get on fine which is indicated by them often being in each other's company without issue so some small measures may be all that is required to ease any tensions.
However, Ollie can be in the dining room downstairs snoozing but if he even gets an inkling that there is play going on upstairs involving Jasper, he's up there instantly taking over so that definitely needs addressing.

Sometimes Ollie will get to the point where he's out of breath after very vigorous activity such as chasing the Da bird types of toy and will lay down and rest but as soon as Jasper shows any interest in playing, Ollie's back on his feet taking over again.
I'll try holding Ollie while we can engage Jasper in play but Ollie's quite a fair sized cat now and not nearly as small as he once was, so he's not so easy to restrain any more if he wants to get free as we've found out when we want to clip his claws 

My daughter's cats, while doing their own thing most of the time individually, will also chase toys as a group so it's possibly to engage cats in communal play and not just as individuals.
If I can engage my two in play together, that would hopefully alleviate some of the friction, especially if Ollie can observe but not participate but if it can't be done, then it's a case of play on a one to one basis.

By the way, zoomer perfectly describes Ollie...he zooms everywhere and when he's playing or chasing a fly it's as if he's in a world of his own and loses all spatial awareness.
The other morning there was fly which kept coming in and out of the kitchen with Ollie chasing it like heat seeking missile. Unfortunately for me I was stood up and the fly landed on my thigh, the next thing I knew was Ollie clinging onto me..his claws are exceeding hooked just like his birth mum's and are excruciatingly sharp when they catch you which is why we need one of us to hold him while the other clips them. Easier said than done of course!


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

jasperthecat said:


> Well if you're going to be like that... " *My 4 probably think they have more in common with me than the other cats to be honest the way they act*.",..... now I wonder who said that?
> 
> I suppose we all anthropomorphise at some point or other even subconsciously, I try not to but occasionally it happens.
> In any case as you suggest I'm going to give Jasper more one to one play time to see if that helps.


Ah yes, but I'm not trying to change their behaviour  (although stopping Teddi from [email protected] in the bath would be a nice behaviour change...


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## jasperthecat (Aug 5, 2017)

MilleD said:


> Ah yes, but I'm not trying to change their behaviour  (although stopping Teddi from [email protected] in the bath would be a nice behaviour change...


When you say Teddi, I presume you're referring to a cat? If it's a human then you've certainly got your work cut out LOL

We've never had any issues of that sort with either of them so I'm not sure how I would deal with that issue..Ollie being the greedy little so and so that he is has been mildly sick on a rare couple of occasions in the past three months after eating too much and then tearing around like a lunatic but the only time Jasper has ever been sick is due to car travel sickness.

I really like both of my cats just the way they are and other than eliminating as many possible causes of conflict as possible, I really don't want them to change or me to change their behaviour other than for both their benefits.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

jasperthecat said:


> When you say Teddi, I presume you're referring to a cat? If it's a human then you've certainly got your work cut out LOL


He's so big, sometimes I wonder! :Hilarious


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## jasperthecat (Aug 5, 2017)

MilleD said:


> He's so big, sometimes I wonder! :Hilarious


What happens if you prevent him from getting into the bathroom? Obviously he can't use the bath so does he use the regular litter trays?


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## jasperthecat (Aug 5, 2017)

Ottery said:


> I currently have four cats who will just about share a rod toy game although one tends to dominate (it depends on the toy - if it involves feathers no one else gets a look in, but he will share other toys). But in the past I have had to do as others said and shut one cat out of the room to give another cat a go. The cat who currently wants to dominate games is 8 months old and is the youngest - kittens are just pushy in general whether it's with food or toys. They may grow out of it, depending on their temperament.


Ollie is roughly 8 months old too and very pushy just as you describe your kitten so it may be that Ollie will have to be excluded when it's Jasper's turn to play.
Ollie will play at any time with any excuse so it's unlikely to affect him being left out occasionally but Jasper is the one I'm more concerned about and if I can get him to chase toys while Ollie is in the same room or play together at the same time, so much the better but if not it's got to be on a one to one basis.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I think this is now getting a tad willy! Stating that we shouldn't attempt to evern try to change a cat's behavior and should just accept them as they are, as individuals, is ridiculous. You just have to look at this section and some of the wonderful advice that's given, to know that some behaviours are completely unacceptable if a cat is to co-habit with a person. Soiling on the floors, biting, scratching etc. They could all be considered as individual traits of a cat, but we would all discourage them if that cat was our cat. We regularly get posts on here about kittens clawing and biting their humans, and every time, it's explained that it's natural play behavior. We give advice on how to stop this going on with humans, how to inhibit the want to wrestle with teeth and claws, and it's successful. If we are to accept that cat or kitten for who they are, we would put up with the biting and scratching as it's completely natural. Come to that, if we're going all natural about it (as I know someone's going to say that we can justify this change as it would happen with other siblings in the wild), then we should be smacking our cats just as another cat would when they've crossed the line. We don't. Why? Because it's unacceptable, so we modify our behavior appropriately, as do they, to enable us to live together and form a relationship.

I don't feel that Jasperthecat should be made to justify themselves for attempting to have cats who live in complete harmony, particularly as they have very clearly stated that if they don't find solutions to make things the way they want them, that's totally Ok and they will approach from a different angle. They are very clearly a caring cat owner, that will do the absolute best possible, and the anthropomorphizing isn't extreme, it's not to the detriment of the cats (i.e they're weeing on my floor out of spite), and in this particular case, it's not doing harm, so shouldn't have even come up.

Jasperthecat, to answer your reply to me, I think the goal here needs to be that they can play together. You will not see them hunt the toy physically together, in that 2 will chase at the same time, but you may well get to the point where you see team work. Mine will chase individually and take turns, but will position themselves to ensure that the toy has no route of escape, so do kind of work as a team in keeping the prey confined. Kittens in my house changes the mix significantly, as then the adults very much work to shorten the area that the prey/toy has to run in, allowing the kittens to practice hunting.

I can speak for nobody else's household, and wouldn't try to, but in mine, the key is to really understand what a cat would do naturally, and more importantly, the motivation behind it. Then, I look at whether that behavior is going to work within my household. If it will cause disruption or friction, then I attempt to work with the cat to modify that to encourage a peaceful existence. If the cat doesn't want to change, I try other solutions to maintain the peaceful existence, and keep trying and trying until we work out what works, and where everyone's tolerance is. For me, this has resulted in very, very responsive cats who are atuned to he behavior of everyone else around them. Our house is perhaps a bit odd, but it works for me. For example, I hear a lot on the forums about cats picking on others when they are unwell. In my house, even when there were 11 cats/kittens of varying personalities, the others would come and alert me that something wasn't right, and eventually through trial and error, I could pinpoint the cat who wasn't well. If I try a new litter and they don't like it, instead of soiling outside the box once they've tried and discovered it's not to their taste, they will come and indicate to me that something is wrong, and then through asking "show me" they will lead me to the box to show that they are unhappy with something in it. This extends to the point of craziness I will admit, as I have had a girl plait her legs and hault delivery until I had arrived home from work, as my OH isless adept at working out what they want, and he didn't understand that she was trying to get him to get a clean tray (we keep a new litter tray in for just this occasion as she gets distressed thinking she might poo herself inappropriately) down from its place so she could start birthing. He knew where she wanted to do it as she had showed him the spot, but was quite upset that he couldn't get it to the way she wanted it to feel secure. As soon as I got home, she showed me, I got it down, in she popped and had birthed me the first kitten within about 7 minutes.

What I'm trying to illustrate is that there are lots of different approaches to getting happy cats, and you need to find what works for you in order to make your house a happy one. I can only tell you what works for me after studying the motivations of my particular cats at various ages, as can others on here. I know particularly with a pushy player who is not a small kitten, the motivation is normally that they feel the older cat is slower and a bit bumbly, and if they don't take every opportunity to hunt it, the toy/prey will get away, so they need to crack on. Sometimes, it can be because the toy is too over stimulating and there's a compulsion to chase that they just can't control no matter how tired they are. In both cases, helping reassure them that the toy isn't going to run away if they rest has been the answer for me. I work to relieve their worries about a situation, which in my case has resulted in more relaxed behavior being displayed, which seems to be more socially acceptable to the current group of cats.

Anyway, sorry for the long post. If you feel that this sort of approach is the way you want to go with things, there's an awesome blog about how to make it work. I haven't read it for years, but I could try and find it for you. Again, it's important to say that everyone has their own ways of working. I'm not saying mine is the only way, only that it's been very successful in my particular situation.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

OMG! Typo that I can't fix as I can't edit my posts! Willy =Silly. Oops!


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## jasperthecat (Aug 5, 2017)

carly87 said:


> I think this is now getting a tad willy! Stating that we shouldn't attempt to evern try to change a cat's behavior and should just accept them as they are, as individuals, is ridiculous. You just have to look at this section and some of the wonderful advice that's given, to know that some behaviours are completely unacceptable if a cat is to co-habit with a person. Soiling on the floors, biting, scratching etc. They could all be considered as individual traits of a cat, but we would all discourage them if that cat was our cat. We regularly get posts on here about kittens clawing and biting their humans, and every time, it's explained that it's natural play behavior. We give advice on how to stop this going on with humans, how to inhibit the want to wrestle with teeth and claws, and it's successful. If we are to accept that cat or kitten for who they are, we would put up with the biting and scratching as it's completely natural. Come to that, if we're going all natural about it (as I know someone's going to say that we can justify this change as it would happen with other siblings in the wild), then we should be smacking our cats just as another cat would when they've crossed the line. We don't. Why? Because it's unacceptable, so we modify our behavior appropriately, as do they, to enable us to live together and form a relationship.
> 
> I don't feel that Jasperthecat should be made to justify themselves for attempting to have cats who live in complete harmony, particularly as they have very clearly stated that if they don't find solutions to make things the way they want them, that's totally Ok and they will approach from a different angle. They are very clearly a caring cat owner, that will do the absolute best possible, and the anthropomorphizing isn't extreme, it's not to the detriment of the cats (i.e they're weeing on my floor out of spite), and in this particular case, it's not doing harm, so shouldn't have even come up.
> 
> ...


Hi @carly77 thank you for your post. I feel you understand what I'm trying to say and achieve.
This morning for instance I spent from 9.00am to 10.00am in my music room rehearsing some music I want to record in the next few days.
Jasper loves music and will come a sit and listen all day long when I play...I knocked off at 10.00 and now he's coming and standing in front of and one of my amplifiers which is still switched on and I know his behaviour well enough to understand that he wants me to play again or put on some music. Strange behaviour maybe but that is how he's grown up with me, enjoying music, particularly rock music. Ollie is also following Jasper's examples and he too likes to wander in while I'm playing.

When my OH's mums dog comes to stay for the weekend, he loves music too and settles readily when I play it. He was an extremely nervous and badly treated rescue dog brought over from Sri Lanka by my OH's mum and he absolutely adores her, it's almost like a scene from the Waltons when they are together..sickly but lovely at the same time as they adore each other

Due to his awful former treatment he finds it very difficult to trust people but he and I get on like a house on fire. He doesn't attack or attempt to hurt the cats in any way and they've now got used to him staying with us overnight whenever my OH's mum visits her very elderly mum who lives about 80 miles away. We even allow them to freely mix ( in the lounge only) when we supervise them.

The image below was what greeted me this morning just after I knocked off playing and went to find where they were as they were rather quiet, too quiet in fact!
Jasper was sat on the bedroom windowsill fully relaxed with Ollie sat right next to him also totally relaxed observing the goings on outside, not that much happens here.

It shows clearly that they can and do get on quite well together most of the time otherwise they would be apart avoiding one another which is in contrast to what is shown in the pic below.
This is the bit that frustrates me...clearly jasper is tolerant of Ollie and Ollie tolerates the grabbing and pinning down by Jasper as he's back chasing him in the next minute, otherwise he'd avoid him like the plague plus from what I've seen and checked, there doesn't appear to be any injuries inflicted on Ollie which I suspect is why he doesn't avoid Jasper, in fact he often starts the interaction with a quick swipe at him as he passes.

When I do play with Jasper, as he's got older, unlike Ollie at this stage just as jasper once was, Jasper is now more of a 'watcher' and behaves very much like a real wild 'big' cat hunting it's prey and is very measured when he goes in for the 'kill', unlike Ollie who flails about expending copious amounts of energy in the process and typical of kittens. 
I'm not sure Jasper will ever regain that kitten behaviour and I don't expect him to, just as I expect Ollie to be more measured in his play once he too reaches adulthood.
Jasper does enjoy chasing some toys but he gets most of his energy release through chasing Ollie around these days and vice versa. They often don't need us when they're in that mood so they do enjoy each other's company, no question.
Of course I want to change Jasper's behaviour to a limited degree but first I want to eliminate any possible 'avoidable' causes which might solve the issue or address them in some other way, but we all modify ours and our pets behaviour in some ways in order to create a harmonious atmosphere between pet and human owner and to argue differently, is I believe naive. Training is a perfect example...if we have pets, we generally train them in some ways as well as teach them things so that is arguably modifying or changing their natural behaviour. It happens with all domesticated animals.

The way I look at it, I have concerns, I have a simple issue ( or it may be complex) but I'd say that judging by how well they get on most of the time, I believe it's relatively simple and quite possible to eliminate the causes of the conflict provoking behaviour if I put in sufficient effort. Clearly I haven't eliminated all sources of the conflict triggers but as you can see from the pic, I think I'm well on the way. They chose to accept that situation themselves and i had no input to the situation.

One point you mentioned earlier regarding hunting as a team. My two when there is a fly in the house or caravan, do indeed hunt as a pair and not just individually and will observe the other's behaviour and leave it to them if they are in a better position to effect a 'kill'. If they miss then the other takes over and they work like that and will force their prey into a corner as a team for one of the to get it.
I feel that if Jasper and Ollie can interact in play together rather than as two individuals, that should in theory more than likely solve the conflict over the play issue but if I can't get them to play as a pair or individually in the same room then there is still the individual in another room option but it could still lead to conflict as there isn't any direct interaction between them.

They have access to the whole house so they don't need to be close together but they're often to be found fairly close together, just not snuggled up


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

@carly87 - I have made it very clear in my previous remarks on the subject of cat behaviour that _*if a cat's behaviour is not causing harm to a human companion, to the cat itself or to another cat in the home, or damage to the home *_ I see no reason to try and change the behaviour.

This has always been my belief, and based on this philosophy I have replied to hundreds of posts over my 8 years on the forum, giving sympathetic advice and support. I expect you are aware of this, having known me for so long through the forum.

.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I am absolutely aware of this, and respect it grately. However, in this case, the behavior is causing potential harm to the other cat, who is feeling pushed out, so why is there a problem with trying to change the behavior to the good of all involved? I do understand that this is your domain, and I'm trying desperately hard not to tread on toes, but I do feel as though other methods are being poopooed or frowned upon as disgusting and vile to the cat, and unfair to consider, when actually they are well within this philosophy, even if approached slightly differently. I tuess it depends on how you define harm, as in this case, I see the behaviou as harmful, as it's clearly upsetting the resident cat. Perhaps you don't? I don't know. Genuinely not trying to cause an argument here, as I think your advice is great, and you take so much time to put it together, but other peoples' views deserve consideration surely? Anyway, I won't back and forth with you on this as it'll derail the thread. I know we're both just trying to help the situation, which at the end of the dya is what matters.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

@carly87 - I don't understand your argument, sorry..

In my replies to the OP I've been sympathetic to his quandry and said clearly Ollie shouldn't be allowed to upset Jasper, by stealing his food, pushing in when Jasper is playing a game with his humans, or whatever else Ollie is doing to push Jasper's nose out of joint. The rights of the resident cat to their feline resources must always be respected. That is my point of view, and it's the same point of view I have always held.

I really have no idea what it is you're objecting to, and do wonder if you've read my posts accurately.

As you say this thread is being derailed, which is unfair to the OP and out of respect for him it's probably best we end the argument at this point. .


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## jasperthecat (Aug 5, 2017)

First of all I'd like to thank those who have responded with their take on the situation and what they would do which has been very insightful and for which I'm grateful so please don't disagree over the issue as in fairness it's probably me who needs to change with regard behaviour and not just the cats. It's made me realise that in order to modify their behaviour then I need to modify mine with regard to my approach to finding a solution to the issue.

However, I feel I have finally turned the corner with regard to their behaviour and maybe they may just partly resolve it themselves if today's behaviour is anything to go by though eggs, chickens and not counting are words and phrases which spring to mind but, I can at least hope can't I?.

It was my OH's father's birthday and as he lives on his own, we thought it would be nice for him to come around for an evening meal after my OH returned from work which he was happy to do. I am in charge (or should that be delegated) of the cooking these days which I actually enjoy very much as it gives me the opportunity to be adventurous in my cooking and my OH who once did all the cooking, is quite happy for me say what's on the menu each working day evening too so tonight we had one of my now almost famous Indian curry which he always enjoys 

Anyway, Ollie and Jasper who had been almost inseparable today, after a period of play in the dining room continued to sit in the dining room with us throughout the meal, with Jasper on laid on Ollie's bed which was unusual and Ollie on one of the spare dining chairs. After the meal we retired to the lounge and the little fellas followed us and were soon playing hide and seek with each other with not even a hint aggression on Jasper's part, in fact he was even laid on the floor outstretching in a submissive way in order to encourage Ollie to play with him. They've been constantly in each other's company today and almost joined at the hip so to speak without any friction whatsoever. Even more strange, it's after 1.00am right now and Ollie is still wandering into my study..usually he's fast asleep tucked up in his bed at this time of night and wouldn't show his face until 6.00am at the earliest.

I'm certainly no cat expert which is why I'm posting here but logic suggests that if they can behave as they have done today, then it's quite possible for them to behave in the same way in the future providing I can reduce or eliminate the triggers which initiate Jasper's annoyance responses which may mean gently modifying or adjusting the scenario for Ollie's behaviour too.

I'm not expecting miracles just yet and I'm sure that there are some very frustrating times ahead but it's possible that given more of his own Ollie-free one to one time to indulge in play which he clearly still enjoys, Jasper will be more accepting of Ollie and not see him as pushing him out which I think is one of the issues though in reality Ollie absolutely adores and looks up to Jasper and I couldn't actually have chosen a better companion for him in that respect even though Ollie tends to dominate at the moment. Ideally I'd like to get them both playing with us together but if it's not possible and one to one playing independently solves the issue then I'm good with that. At the end of the day, it's the well being and harmony of both Jasper and Ollie which is important not how it's achieved. 

The changes I've made to their feeding seems to have had much of the desired effect I'd hoped for so far, though given Ollie's propensity to view any food as his, I would still like if possible to get Jasper used to feeding from the chip feeder in order to give him full control of and over the food available to him only which would eliminate any risk of conflict from Ollie pushing in while Jasper is feeding.


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## sandy-cat (Feb 24, 2018)

Hi @jasperthecat, sorry I've not replied lately, I've just caught up on the thread. It sounds like there has been a positive movement. I think you're right that reducing the triggers for annoyance will improve the relationship.

It's certainly what I've seen with Sandy and Fili. I can't stop Fili being playful and bouncing around Sandy, or trying to cuddle up to him, but nor would I want to as he's not being aggressive, just over-energetic and affectionate. Sandy is increasingly relaxed with both and is even initiating play on occasion now, after 5 weeks (5 weeks today in fact!). He's not keen on Fili trying to cuddle - he likes his personal space - but he doesn't completely hate it! And they happily sleep in the same room as each other (as in, Fili will pick a spot and Sandy will decide to sleep near him, or vice versa).

As I said previously, the feeding order seemed to make the most difference as it gave Sandy back a lot of confidence. However Fili has recently been allowed to explore the garden and Sandy seems to have taken quite well to a "big brother" role in this regard. Every time Fili has been out in the garden (under my supervision), Sandy has followed him around - not too closely, but always only a few feet away, keeping an eye. A couple of times Fili seemed to get into trouble - for example he was balancing on the border of a raised bed and slipped a bit - and Sandy went straight to him and sniffed him all over. I don't know the motivation, but it genuinely seemed like he was checking out his little brother (and whether that's anthropomorphising or not, I don't care  ).

Of course it might also be that now Fili is out of the house sometimes, Sandy is happier as he gets the house to himself occasionally, but I genuinely don't think that's the case as when Fili is outside, Sandy is always with him.


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## sandy-cat (Feb 24, 2018)




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## sandy-cat (Feb 24, 2018)

I just uploaded a little playfight to YouTube so you can see what mine do, as it's too big a file to share here:






Edit to add - as you can see, most of the playfights start off with Fili gently poking Sandy :Hilarious


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## jasperthecat (Aug 5, 2017)

sandy-cat said:


> Hi @jasperthecat, sorry I've not replied lately, I've just caught up on the thread. It sounds like there has been a positive movement. I think you're right that reducing the triggers for annoyance will improve the relationship.
> 
> It's certainly what I've seen with Sandy and Fili. I can't stop Fili being playful and bouncing around Sandy, or trying to cuddle up to him, but nor would I want to as he's not being aggressive, just over-energetic and affectionate. Sandy is increasingly relaxed with both and is even initiating play on occasion now, after 5 weeks (5 weeks today in fact!). He's not keen on Fili trying to cuddle - he likes his personal space - but he doesn't completely hate it! And they happily sleep in the same room as each other (as in, Fili will pick a spot and Sandy will decide to sleep near him, or vice versa).
> 
> ...


Hi @sandy-cat , thanks for the reply. Sounds like your two are doing ok. Mine were fine earlier this morning which up to that point had been uneventful until Ollie got off the windowsill and Jasper who was also on there decided he'd leap off and pin down Ollie again...I think it's more than just play though it doesn't seem to stop Ollie from being around him and I've noticed Ollie being more assertive in the play and today showed what seemed to be a hint of annoyance with Jasper on one occasion so he might start standing up to him more. I'm also noticing Ollie being more provocative which I suspect annoys Jasper so it's not all Jasper's fault.
Other than that, there hasn't been much conflict though there was a fair bit of two-way chasing at various points of the day when they weren't asleep.

Probably the biggest issue was that Ollie might have been stung this afternoon by a huge bumble bee on some clothing I'd dropped on the floor to be put in the linen basket just before I went into the shower. (yes I know I should have put the clothes straight into the linen bin but there were a pair jeans among the clothes to wash with loose change and notes, keys etc in the pockets so as I hadn't emptied them out, I left them there until I put on my fresh trousers and transferred everything...that's my story and I'll stick to it )

When I came out of the en suite Jasper was was stood awkwardly looking rather alarmed at the clothing on the floor while Ollie was stood over it smacking away at something in the folds of the clothing which turned out to be the huge bee. 
Jasper didn't want to get involved and during Ollie's swipes the bee Ollie pulled back his paw at one point and flicked it as though he'd been stung but I later couldn't see any signs of it having stung him but it was a tad angry at being poked by Ollie.
However, I had a struggle to get Ollie away from it as he was determined to kill it and was very put out at being placed out of the room while I opened the window and coerced the bee out of the bedroom. How it got in I haven't a clue as there were no windows open at the time. Jasper was quite happy to leave the room when I took out Ollie.

Jasper used to chase flies in the house like a lunatic until I suspect one was a wasp which stung him as now he's very wary of large buzzing insects like bees and wasps and even large spiders which at one time he'd kill and devour in seconds.
These days Jasper seems to delegate Ollie to deal with the big crawlies and buzzers as the other night there was just about biggest spider I've seen in our house on the landing wall which fell onto the hall floor with Jasper chasing downstairs after it but when he went to poke it, it ran toward him and he was backing up no end to get away from it and then Ollie stepped in and came to the rescue and started smacking at it after which they both dealt with it.

Speak of the devil, they've both just wandered in and out of my study/music studio like a pair of delinquents siblings looking for mischief as I type....I really can't figure them out?

It's a case of three steps forward and two steps back but maybe I'm overly protective of them both and perhaps I'm mistaking some of the interaction as aggression when it's just cat play as other than bits of Ollie's fur flying, he doesn't seem to be ever actually injured or else he sure is one tough little guy as he always keeps going back for more. I'm going force myself to observe from a distance and give them more room to see if it is aggression or Jasper simply trying to initiate play and interaction with Ollie. I can always intervene if necessary but I'm not sure my approach is always helpful if I'm intervening when it's only play.

If Jasper has settled down to sleep for the night, Ollie will come to my study and lay down and stay with me until I go to bed which could be 2.00am or even later if I have things to do then he'll toddle off to the dining room and sleep on his own bed...highly predictable just like Jasper.

I'm going to try and capture Jasper's behaviour with a camera...those shots of yours are not unlike some of the behaviour of my two but Jasper seems compelled to grab Ollie by the neck to pin him down and then they end up rolling around on the floor in a tussle. Minutes later they're the best of mates playing games together. I don't think I'll ever figure them out!


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## jasperthecat (Aug 5, 2017)

Well the pinning down hasn't entirely stopped but I get the impression that there has been quite an amelioration in Jasper's behaviour and there are far less incidents between them. Ollie isn't without blame and has a swipe at Jasper when he walks past but I've managed to get them to feeding close together without any issues and Ollie is slowly learning his place and who is the boss cat around the home so he's not always barging in on things. Jasper seems more accepting of Ollie who clearly adores him and head butts him whenever they meet so I'm hopeful. Jasper didn't like it at first but now he's ok with it.

I think much of it is down to joint play with them. They each like to be teased and catch grass stems ( I've now made sure there are no seeds to upset them) and have played with them each day on the staircase with Jasper higher up and Ollie lower down with me poking the grass stalk through the spindles from the hallway alternately for them to catch and they both love it. In fact if they see me pick up a grass stalk, both Jasper and Ollie now run to the staircase expecting to play. I'm really pleased Jasper is feeling relaxed enough to participate and is enjoying joining in.

To extend the joint play further I've managed to get them within only one step between them and then teasing each in turn by standing over them on the stairs and tapping the grass on each of their heads in turn and they're loving it. The more I poke and tap the more they love it.
Each one now lets the other have a go without interfering or getting annoyed and it seems to be perhaps making Jasper feel more included, in fact he's laying down and playing and even reaching out to Ollie during this play so it's working.

The other day I deliberately locked Ollie out of the bedroom and played with Jasper with a length of string on a fishing rod toy and he was loving chasing it but as soon as Ollie came pawing at the door and mewing to get in, Jasper forgot about the play and went over to the door and was laid down chatting through the door to Ollie so he is certainly beginning to like him. They also chase each other around and are always calling for each other so maybe in a few months we'll have no issues at all.

Jasper is also slowly getting back to his old self and old ways and Ollie is such a dream that they are very well suited. I think Jasper felt pushed out at first but the joint play as well as individual play etc are having the desired effect and Jasper is seeking out Ollie more and more.
We've taken the door off Ollie's covered litter tray as Jasper won't use any covered tray with a door and Jasper is using that tray too so they both share loos and no issues at all though I do clean up as soon as I'm aware there is any mess but Jasper doesn't seem at all bothered and has been using Ollies covered tray ever since my OH removed the flap door.

I'm certainly less frustrated thn I was, that's for sure.


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## sandy-cat (Feb 24, 2018)

All sounds really positive!


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## jasperthecat (Aug 5, 2017)

sandy-cat said:


> All sounds really positive!


I maybe spoke too soon as there was a spat this afternoon but that it seems is it for today, I hope so not all bad.

I have got them sharing play together which is going fine as Jasper is now joining in too instead of it just being Ollie doing all the playing with Jasper watching from the sidelines..and when I have one of LIDL's custard type cakes (which I had today) both of them now expect me to dip my finger in and feed them in turn by letting them lick my fingers.
I've got them more or less trained to respect each other when I'm feeding them and they will both sit in front of me like two well behaved dogs and wait until each one is finished licking my fingers before expecting their turn which is encouraging as they are learning that neither is prioritised and each will get their share so no need to feel the need to protect their food source, though I invariably start with feeding Jasper first as he's the dominant cat.


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