# Starting again



## considerthis (Nov 22, 2012)

hello. Its been a while since i have kept fish and i just wanted some advice. So far:
I have refreshed myself on cycling and filter maintenence.

I have a 20 litre/ 4.3 gallon tank, It was set it up last night, dechlorinated the water with stresscoat. and added quickstart this morning.

The filter is a elite stingray 5 which is the correct size for the tank, the sponges inside the filter have come from a friends already established tank.

2 live plants were added this morning as well as an air stone and air pump.

I have set the heater on to about 20C until we go to get fish.

I just want a single Betta. Was planning to go either tomorrow or thursday.

Is there anything else i can do for this tank??

Thanks for reading <*}]]]><


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## Phoenix24 (Apr 6, 2013)

Hmmm, i'm not sure you have really refreshed yourself on cycling - adding dechlorinator and waiting a couple of days is not cycling!

To set up a tank ready for fish you need to perform a full fishless cycle, which involves using bottled ammonia (eg Jeyes kleenoff household ammonia), a bacteria source for seeding (typically a squeeze from a mature filter, last resort is bottled bacteria), and a minimum of 2 weeks of water testing every 24 hours and dosing with ammonia.

Ammonia is broken down by special bacteria in the filter into nitrite, which is further broken down by more bacteria into nitrate. Ammonia and nitrite are highly toxic to fish. Without any bacteria the ammonia levels build up quickly and kill the fish. You cannot grow these bacteria without an ammonia source or a seeding culture. This is what cycling is all about - growing bacteria and monitoring the levels of the various nitrogenous wastes until they are all being broken down within 24 hours (the magic double zeros).

If you want to do things properly you will not be getting a fish for at least 3 weeks - maybe longer. Do you want to know more on how to proceed with the fishless cycle?


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## considerthis (Nov 22, 2012)

Hmm I never did any of that before. I always did cycling with fish in and never had any problems. Kept 3 tanks with neons, bettas, angel fish and puffer fish and only had a few days fishless as I was advised by my local aquatics shop. I used that quickstart stuff thou so that might be why.


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## considerthis (Nov 22, 2012)

Phoenix24 said:


> Hmmm, i'm not sure you have really refreshed yourself on cycling - adding dechlorinator and waiting a couple of days is not cycling!


i wasn't talking about fishless cycles

sorry, i thought i'd mentioned that lol


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

If the filter sponges are from an established filter it shouldn't take long to cycle, but the nitrifying bacteria they contain will die without an ammonia source. Do you have a water test kit? With this and some Kleenoff ammonia, you should be able to get the tank cycled very quickly, and minimise the risk of your fish becoming unwell/dying within the first couple of weeks.

I know fish-in cycling used to be what most people used, but nowadays fishless cycling is always recommended as it's so much more humane. Why go through the stress of daily water changes and the struggle to keep your fish alive - not to mention the money spent on treatments for whitespot etc (many such diseases are much more likely to occur when the fish is stressed due to poor water conditions) and on replacing your fish if it dies - when it can all be avoided, the only downside being a slightly longer wait before you get to add fish?

Plus, many fish are less hardy than they used to be, due to excessive in-breeding to produce desirable colours and long fins, etc.


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## considerthis (Nov 22, 2012)

Yes I have all stuff from years ago. I can check water. 

So wih media from an established tank how would that alter a fishless cycle? 

The I was always told fishless cycles weren't necessary but am intrigued now. 

I've been reading abit this afternoon about it but the api product quick start s advert on YouTube says that fishless cycles are no longer necessary, just a couple of days for setup when using this product.

A lot of different info keeps popping up. Lol


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

The difference is that both API and your aquatic store are trying to sell you something. We on the forum are not aftet your money - our only concern is the wellbeing of your fish.

The jury's still out on most bottled bacteria products. Some say they work; others say they can actually stall the cycle by populating your media with the wrong type of bacteria. Either way, the safest and best way is to get hold of some mature media - which you have - and using this to kick-start a fishless cycle.

What the mature media will do - provided it wasn't out of the tank for too long when you got it, and isn't left for more than a couple of days without an ammonia source - is to greatly speed up your cycle. If *all* your media is mature, which your post implies, you may be lucky and get away with a really quick cycle - a mini-cycle really - of just a few days.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

A useful article on fishless cycling:Tropical Fish Forums UK - Setting up your new Aquarium


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## considerthis (Nov 22, 2012)

Thank you guys, I followed that link and was surprised reading what harm can happen to these easily attainable fish without preparing thoroughly and am surprised I did so well with no casualties before. 

I appreciate your honesty and genuine concern for pet fish, (pet shops should be saying this stuff if they care as much as they say). 

Like I said I'd not heard much about this fishless cycle just that it seemed long winded and according to my local aquatics shop completely unnecessary. 

Rest assured I'm not buying any fish any time soon. Lol Thanks again people,


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## considerthis (Nov 22, 2012)

Oh naomi, yes the media was mature, I put it in a baggy with filter squeezings and water from my neighbours tank and was in my tank/filter in less than 10 mins. I did this last time. I used to give friends media from my old tanks. Thanks


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## Phoenix24 (Apr 6, 2013)

Everything Naomi said! The aquatics stores will say anything to sell a product, and half (or more than half) the time the products appear to work but don't do what you really need them to do - ie populate your filter with a healthy colony of ammonia/nitrite munching bacteria  The worst pet stores (such as [email protected]) often don't even go so far as to push the likes of quickstart (which in reality are bottled bacteria - but even if you dump a whole bottle in its not going to mean your filter colony is fully functioning) - the worst stores just say add declorinator and wait 3 days.

The reason why pet stores offer 'quick' methods or just say wait 3 days is because the majority of new fishkeepers don't know/realise that keeping a fish isn't as simple as dumping a fish into a bowl, and baulk at the prospect of spending the time or money you really need to provide a safe environment for what really is a sensitive group of organisms. To get a sale the pet stores don't mention the reality. People want fish RIGHT NOW and simply aren't prepared to wait a few weeks, and will go elsewhere if the pet store is saying anything otherwise.

Using a squeeze from mature filter media is most likely why you've not had the pain of a full fishless cycle from scratch - you can get a filter up and running fairly quickly if you have a good innoculant (the seeding bacteria). Its not enough though to do the squeeze and shove the fish in, those bacteria are only a seed and need time to colonise and grow int he filter, and to do that they need an ammonia source. Like Naomi said, the old method of using the fish to grow the bacteria is outdated and considered inhumane - the rising levels of ammonia and nitrites that occur (that will occur even with seeding bacteria, perhaps not as dramatically as without though hence why we call it a minicycle) poison the fish, and cause them considerable stress physiologically and physically. Ammonia and nitrite both burn. Nitrite prevents absoption of oxygen much in the way that carbon monoxide does with us. Symptoms of the toxic effect of both include gasping, rapid gill movements and hanging at the water surface (lack of oxygen), darting around, blackened gills, white patches on the scales (from the burning), general loss of condition and eventually death. It's pretty horrible.

So if you have your test kit, your squeeze of bacteria and a bottle of household ammonia you can grow all your bacteria safely and avoid causing any fish harm (or killing them), and pop your new fishy in in complete peace of mind.

I would just add that even if you are only going to get a single betta, I would advise a bigger tank. I despise all these nano tanks and starter kits as they are barely more than a bowl with a filter. Bigger tanks afford a better environment for a fish - even if its just because larger water volumes have a bigger capacity to absorb minor fluctuations in water chemistry. There are some really nice tanks out there in the range of 40L, and you might be able to get some companions for the fish (yes, you can keep some other species with a betta - if you do your homework). Obviously I realise you might already have bought everything and set it up, but its something to think about long term.


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## considerthis (Nov 22, 2012)

Ok phoenix you have some interesting points. As I said previously I can see why this method is now advised. 

I have read however that bettas can live in as little as 1 gallon tanks happily. This is over 4 gallons with full filtration. 

Also bettas can become stressed placed in a large tank as they are used to living in small spaces all their lives. 

I know bettas can have tankates, used to keep a big shoal of neons with my old half moon bettas, they got on lovely


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## Phoenix24 (Apr 6, 2013)

Actually it is a myth that bettas live naturally in small puddles and can be kept in small tanks. They can survive in those conditions, but that does not mean it gives a license to treat them that way. I came across the following article on the subject:

Mythbuster: Do bettas really live in "tiny" puddles?

Take note of the part that says wild bettas live in vast paddyfields, and the *minimum* recommended tanks size is 3 gallons, but it is advised to use a tank of around 10 gallons.


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## considerthis (Nov 22, 2012)

Crap! Sorry for language. I ordered some java moss online last week, it arrived and I put it in today and I've noticed this little guy just now. Look above heater. What is he? What should I do?


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## considerthis (Nov 22, 2012)

Sorry about image it was really hard to get a pic of him


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Can't really tell from the pic, but the most usual 'hitch hikers' with plants are bladder snails. Totally harmless, and a good indication of whether you're overfeeding as they'll breed like crazy if you are! (They'll only increase slowly if you're not overfeeding.)

If you do want to get rid of them (and personally I wouldn't bother), an assassin snail will eat them and is an interesting tank addition (if you only get one it can't breed). Or you can put in a piece of cucumber or similar overnight to attract them, and pick the snails off it in the morning! Don't go putting any chemicals in, as they can really mess up your tank's chemistry.


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## considerthis (Nov 22, 2012)

I'm certain it's a baby fish. It looks like a tadpole with big eyes but it is swimming around the tank. Not stuck to glass. I have no idea how it survived in the post


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## Phoenix24 (Apr 6, 2013)

Let it grow and see what it is! Feed fish food crumbled into tiny flecks, or something called liquifry (i'm not sure what it is but its supposed to be a feed for baby fish) if the fish is too tiny for flake.


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## Treaclesmum (Sep 26, 2011)

Could be a baby guppy from the tail


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## considerthis (Nov 22, 2012)

Thanks guys but What do I do about cycling?


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## Phoenix24 (Apr 6, 2013)

Good question. Having a small fish in the tank certainly puts an interesting problem ahead. Have you got your water test kit handy? Did you say you had seeded your filter media from a mature bacterial source? If so, what you are going to have to do is closely monitor ammonia and nitrite levels in the water and perform regular water changes (daily). 

You won't be able to add any more fish for a while because the sensible option now is to effectively class the tank as in quarantine whilst you wait for the young fish to grow. As it is such a small/young fish the ammonia burden will not be as great as a full grown/larger fish, but equally you cannot allow the water to go unmonitored because young fish are more delicate whilst they develop. 

It's not ideal to allow the tank to cycle fish-in, and is generally frowned upon, but in your case you have little choice unless you decide to give the young fish to a local aquatics store or someone with a mature tank (with non-predatory fish!). 

You won't be able to add any ammonia to the tank as you would for a fishless cycle, and the little fish will only produce a relatively small amount, so it will take quite a while for the cycle to progress (hence daily monitoring and partial water changes with pre-treated water (ie using tap water conditioner - ideally Seachem Prime) to avoid toxic build up). 

Alas if this fish is a guppy you won't be able to get a betta. You might want to consider re-homing it now if you intend to get a betta, and then you can perform the full fishless cycle as originally planned.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Just to add - if you do keep the baby fish for any period of time and then rehome it, you'll still need to do a fishless cycle after rehoming it before getting a betta, as the bioload for the baby fish will be much smaller than for the betta, and the filter bacteria will be adjusted to this smaller bioload.


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## considerthis (Nov 22, 2012)

I've decided to abandon my betta plan and keep this little guy.

I heard horror stories before about housing the two together. 

I have also noticed today there are several tiny shrimp, they are soo small, much smaller than the fish, who is nearly half a cm now.

He isn't bothering them and they keep out of his way, but will I have problems as they grow? 

I've been changing 2 - 3 litres every other day and feeding small amounts on an evening. 

When he gets bigger I'll put some pics up.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Wow, sounds like you got lots of freebies with your moss!

It depends what the little guy turns out to be. If he's a guppy, he should be fine with shrimp, though tiny baby shrimp are pretty much fair prey for anything that can fit them in its mouth! The moss should give them plenty of hiding places. Cholla wood is also great for shrimp, both as a hiding place and a food source, and it looks good too 

How are your water test results looking?


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## considerthis (Nov 22, 2012)

I emailed the seller this morning and he said he has a planted tank that he sells from. 

He said this guy is either a guppy or an endler whatever that is and that he keeps loads of different shrimp so they could be anything. 

He also said he was sorry about the hitch hikers but I'd have to post them back if I didn't want them. 

I can't put these guys in the post, even with the good weather we're having I wouldn't sleep well knowing it'd be done on purpose.


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## considerthis (Nov 22, 2012)

Water tests are good thanks for asking . 

Ph is Ok, nitrite and nitrate are low, gh could be better so have ordered a bit of bogwood. 

There is no ammonia bit on the strip, didn't notice that before. 

But my little hitch hikers are thriving so can't be bad


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

It's worth investing in a liquid test kit such as the API master kit (around £20 from Amazon/ebay, more in-store) as it's much more accurate than the strips. Also ammonia is the most important thing to be testing for at this stage. At the very least you ought to have liquid tests for ammonia and nitrite.  It sounds like all's going well, but it's still very useful to have a decent test kit so that you can pick up on any problems early before they start affecting the fish!


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## considerthis (Nov 22, 2012)

Ok I get paid on Friday so will order one next week. Cheers for recommending, I do prefer api


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