# Outcross enigma



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

These are four weeks old tomorrow. Has anyone any idea what they are? They are not exactly what I was expecting!

















Liz


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## Petloversdigest (Dec 10, 2010)

They are very sweet! Is that any help...(sorry couldn't help myself once I saw the pics...)


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## loz83 (Mar 28, 2011)

what were u expecting???


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## francescah (Feb 6, 2011)

I don't know but I really want one :lol:


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## Gem16 (Aug 5, 2010)

who are the parents?


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## Chez87 (Aug 11, 2010)

Not a clue!!


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

lizward said:


> These are four weeks old tomorrow. Has anyone any idea what they are? They are not exactly what I was expecting!
> 
> View attachment 62781
> 
> ...


Err .... kittens   
What were you expecting? They look a little like Tonks with colourpoints


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Well, they come from a mix of Burmese and Moggy which was a deliberate outcross programme I started two years ago. It seems that the moggy part has thrown something rather unexpected into the mix, namely Cs genes. But I'm not absolutely sure. Are there any Siamese / Tonkinese / Colourpoint breeders here?

There are two others in the litter but they are just black, which was expected. I was hoping for a brown as in brown Burmese, but these are far too light for that.

Liz


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

lizward said:


> Well, they come from a mix of Burmese and Moggy which was a deliberate outcross programme I started two years ago. It seems that the moggy part has thrown something rather unexpected into the mix, namely Cs genes. But I'm not absolutely sure. Are there any Siamese / Tonkinese / Colourpoint breeders here?
> 
> There are two others in the litter but they are just black, which was expected. I was hoping for a brown as in brown Burmese, but these are far too light for that.
> 
> Liz


coat colour looks blue or even lilac but the points are very dark for four weeks old. You seem to have a blue/lilac with seal/black points. Do you know anything about the moggy's parentage?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Nothing at all, no. Now, Mum has to be CCb as she is black and her Mum is Burmese, so these can't possibly be CsCs, they could be CbCs though which would of course be darker than CsCs - but the contrast between their ears and their bodies is quite extreme isn't it. From the paw pads, I would think they were brown if they were Burmese so that translates to mink / seal doesn't it?

Either that or I've discovered a new gene but I don't have that sort of luck!

Liz


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

lizward said:


> Nothing at all, no. Now, Mum has to be CCb as she is black and her Mum is Burmese, so these can't possibly be CsCs, they could be CbCs though which would of course be darker than CsCs - but the contrast between their ears and their bodies is quite extreme isn't it. From the paw pads, I would think they were brown if they were Burmese so that translates to mink / seal doesn't it?
> 
> *Either that or I've discovered a new gene but I don't have that sort of luck!*
> 
> Liz


Well, that would be exciting  
I think you can only see how they develop as the colourpoints can take a few weeks before coming through properly. It certainly seems very extreme at the moment. They look very cute though


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

what is outcrossing about and why do you do it? Just interested to know


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Marley boy said:


> what is outcrossing about and why do you do it? Just interested to know


its done normally at the beginning of a breed to make sure that you have a wide genepool, so its nice and healthy not alot of matings between mums/sons/etc

I aws going to say burmese something!

i know a tonk breeder do you want their details? have bred for many many many years!


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Marley boy said:


> what is outcrossing about and why do you do it? Just interested to know


It's about crossing a pedigree cat to another breed (deliberately!), then for best effect you repeat the outcross, bring in as much as you can of the other breed early on before you then move on through the generations crossing only tothe breed you actually want. You end up with cats that look like the breed you started with but with some characteristic or other from the other breed. This is done to bring in new colours, or new coat lengths or textures, or simply to increase the gene pool which is my aim. Burmese are seriously inbred at the moment to the point where the _average_ mating is equivalent to mating half siblings - imagine the effect when this goes on generation after generation after generation. Well, I have spent long enough bemoaning the situation so I decided to put my money where my mouth is.

As an example of what can be done, recently I met a Burmese outcrossed with a ragdoll - the cat was 7/8 Burmese 1/8 ragdoll. She looked like a Burmese and would not have disgraced herself in a show ring, but she was very much bigger than any female you would see in shows today. Unfortunately since in her case the original mating was not deliberate, she was not registered.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Taylorbaby said:


> i know a tonk breeder do you want their details? have bred for many many many years!


Yes please - an email address would be great.

Liz


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

As some one who knows sod all about cat breeding. You outcross deliberately to another breed to increase the gene pool,I can just about see why you would feel that necessary ,but why would you outcross to a moggy when you know nothing about its history.


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

I assume she thoroughly health checked the moggie first and that the moggie itself isn't very likely to have any inherent issues, the beauty of being a moggie being that it's genetic history is also probably quite diverse. Also as someone that knows bugger all, I assume using a moggie is better than another pedigree as that increases possible health issues right off


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

lizward said:


> It's about crossing a pedigree cat to another breed (deliberately!), then for best effect you repeat the outcross, bring in as much as you can of the other breed early on before you then move on through the generations crossing only tothe breed you actually want. You end up with cats that look like the breed you started with but with some characteristic or other from the other breed. This is done to bring in new colours, or new coat lengths or textures, or simply to increase the gene pool which is my aim. Burmese are seriously inbred at the moment to the point where the _average_ mating is equivalent to mating half siblings - imagine the effect when this goes on generation after generation after generation. Well, I have spent long enough bemoaning the situation so I decided to put my money where my mouth is.
> 
> As an example of what can be done, recently I met a Burmese outcrossed with a ragdoll - the cat was 7/8 Burmese 1/8 ragdoll. She looked like a Burmese and would not have disgraced herself in a show ring, but she was very much bigger than any female you would see in shows today. Unfortunately since in her case the original mating was not deliberate, she was not registered.
> 
> Liz


oh right i follow now. I didnt realise crosses could be registered? or is it futher down the line that kittens can be registered ie not first crosses, if that makes sense lol


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_they do look like tonks, they are gorgeous, i bet they will look stunning when there points come through properly,,,gorgeous. i will take both of them thank you...,,_


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

they go on the reference register for 5 generations, so you have to keep a girl back then from that girl another girl & so on.

some breeds are allowed outcrosses, for example the selkirk rex are allowed outcrosses to the british shorthair & persian.

others just a example ragdolls/bengals/british dont need anymore outcrosses so not allowed anymore as the gene pool is big enough.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

buffie said:


> As some one who knows sod all about cat breeding. You outcross deliberately to another breed to increase the gene pool,I can just about see why you would feel that necessary ,but why would you outcross to a moggy when you know nothing about its history.


Three main reasons: 1. Hybrid vigour (you're unlikely to be bringing any other nasties into the gene pool because, whether we like it or not and I know we don't, the plain fact is that genetic defects are something you get with pedigrees rather than moggies 2. It can be difficult to the point of impossible to get a stud owner of another breed to allow her cat to be used as an outcross, even when that outcross has been well established - some of them still seem to believe it will somehow pollute their line and 3. Cost. Using moggies is free (well OK, you have an extra cat to look after for a time, perhaps a long time, but there isn't an initial outlay to explain to the husband  )

Outcrossing to moggies has been done in both the Burmese (to get the red colour series in) and Asians (with Bombays to get the black) In this case what I wanted in the main was size and vigour. The size of the first first generation litter I had, and the health of both first generation litters, was very noticeable.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Marley boy said:


> oh right i follow now. I didnt realise crosses could be registered? or is it futher down the line that kittens can be registered ie not first crosses, if that makes sense lol


You can certainly register half pedigrees - I have two that are both registered. They go on the reference register for five generations. Whether or not you can register out and out moggies with GCCF is something I don't know because I've never tried it, but in any case you can do it with TICA.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

These are the two first generation cats I have kept so far (different litters)

















The black one is the mother of the present outcross litter and her father is this rather splendid chap.









Liz


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_they are gorgeous Liz...._


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Mai Tai is a second generation outcross, but outcross for a different reason. Her Grand-sire is a chocolate silver oriental and the GCCF have ruled that silver is not recognised in Siamese, though the outcross is permitted. Because the effect of the silver gene (an inhibitor) can't be seen Mai Tai and her kittens are on the reference register and are not assigned a breed number. They cannot be entered into GCCF shows.
I intend to keep back a kitten of Mai Tai's and continue to breed through the generations until we are back to a recognised Siamese.
If I was to use an Oriental stud any Oriental kittens would be placed on the main register as the silver gene is recognised in Orientals.


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_wow, you learn something new every day,  its very confusing thou. but very very interesting.._


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

I was going to ask exactly the same question as Buffie. And Liz, I read your reply - though it certainly sounds good - I still don't think it makes any sense when you are talking about using a moggy with no known history as an outcross. I can certainly see why outcrossing between a pedigree of one breed with a predigree of another breed has advantages but a moggy where bugger all is known? Sorry, cannot see any benefit to that. Was the moggy at least health-checked?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

It's hybrid vigour, Hobbs. If we try to kid ourselves that pedigree cats are generally ("on average") as healthy as moggies reared the same way, we are being completely unrealistic. I didn't have any particular thing I wanted to bring in except size, and my little Burmese girl certainly couldn't be mated to a Maine Coon or Ragdoll or even British. This fine healthy fellow was available so I borrowed him for a single mating which took, um, not very long 

I should perhaps explain that my parents have routinely kept entire tom cats (moggies) as free ranging pets for more than three decades. So you see I don't have the same sort of fear of nasties that a lot of you do.

Liz


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I am finding this extremely interesting to read....Thank you


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

lizward said:


> It's hybrid vigour, Hobbs. If we try to kid ourselves that pedigree cats are generally ("on average") as healthy as moggies reared the same way, we are being completely unrealistic. I didn't have any particular thing I wanted to bring in except size, and my little Burmese girl certainly couldn't be mated to a Maine Coon or Ragdoll or even British. This fine healthy fellow was available so I borrowed him for a single mating which took, um, not very long
> 
> I should perhaps explain that my parents have routinely kept entire tom cats (moggies) as free ranging pets for more than three decades. So you see I don't have the same sort of fear of nasties that a lot of you do.
> 
> Liz


Liz
You say that "this fine healthy fellow" was available,you still havnt answered hobbs question, did you "health check"him?After all he had possibly been impregnating every slapper in the county.


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

lizward said:


> It's hybrid vigour, Hobbs. If we try to kid ourselves that pedigree cats are generally ("on average") as healthy as moggies reared the same way, we are being completely unrealistic. I didn't have any particular thing I wanted to bring in except size, and my little Burmese girl certainly couldn't be mated to a Maine Coon or Ragdoll or even British. This fine healthy fellow was available so I borrowed him for a single mating which took, um, not very long
> 
> I should perhaps explain that my parents have routinely kept entire tom cats (moggies) as free ranging pets for more than three decades. So you see I don't have the same sort of fear of nasties that a lot of you do.
> 
> Liz


Clonk, clonk, clonk - the sound of pieces that are suddenly falling into place. I now completely understand why you are so sympathetic when people come on here after their unspayed girl escaped and now finds herself pregnant. Basically, had this forum existed for the past 30 years when your parents let their undone boys roam, we would have had their neighbours come on here about their cats and "accidental on purpose" or just accidental litters.

However, i don't quite see what your parents letting their toms out to roam has anything to do with people's fears of nasties - for all you know they created unviable litters or heavily diseased litters. Your statement just doesn't make any sense. And also, it doesn't explain whether the moggy you used was health-tested to rule out any problems that he might carry. Otherwise, you got your desired changes in size but got some additional health-issues to boot.

But isn't it the case that you now have a litter of moggies? Is that what you were after as a breeder?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

buffie said:


> Liz
> You say that "this fine healthy fellow" was available,you still havnt answered hobbs question, did you "health check"him?After all he had possibly been impregnating every slapper in the county.


What should I have checked him for? All my cats are vaccinated against FeLV and besides that isn't caught from a one off two minute mating but from exchange of saliva as in shared food and water bowls . There is not one recorded case of a cat catching FIV from mating either, it is caught from bite wounds, and there are no genetic tests that would routinely be done on moggies. I say this every single time anyone starts scaremongering about all the dreadful diseases that "might" have been caught by the female they let out to breed with the local male but no-one ever listens. The bottom line is that, unlike us, cats are designed to have multiple partners.

Liz


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

lizward said:


> What should I have checked him for? All my cats are vaccinated against FeLV and besides that isn't caught from a one off two minute mating but from exchange of saliva as in shared food and water bowls . There is not one recorded case of a cat catching FIV from mating either, it is caught from bite wounds, and there are no genetic tests that would routinely be done on moggies. I say this every single time anyone starts scaremongering about all the dreadful diseases that "might" have been caught by the female they let out to breed with the local male but no-one ever listens. The bottom line is that, unlike us, cats are designed to have multiple partners.
> 
> Liz


Just because there are no genetic tests routinely done on moggies surely does not mean that it is safe to assume that there are no genetic "faults"that will/could be passed on.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

hobbs2004 said:


> I now completely understand why you are so sympathetic when people come on here after their unspayed girl escaped and now finds herself pregnant. Basically, had this forum existed for the past 30 years when your parents let their undone boys roam, we would have had their neighbours come on here about their cats and "accidental on purpose" or just accidental litters.


No doubt. What my parents do is out of my control, I'm afraid. I can tell you though that with the exception of one who was killed on the raods, their entire males led perfectly healthy lives with no illnesses other than the ones you would expect in any cats, and they died at ripe old ages. Of course they were all kept up to date with vaccinations and were all fed on very good and very expensive food. It's just that my father has a thing about neutering toms, that's all.



> However, i don't quite see what your parents letting their toms out to roam has anything to do with people's fears of nasties - for all you know they created unviable litters or heavily diseased litters.


Why would they have done? The chances of them carrying a deleterious recessive that happend to co-incide with a deleterious recessive carried by the female would be minimal, and if they had any diseases the females could catch, somehow I think they might themselves have shown some symptoms. We may not like it, but the plain fact is that domestic cats bred very successfully for several thousand years before anyone started worrying about health tests and pedigrees.



> But isn't it the case that you now have a litter of moggies? Is that what you were after as a breeder?


As I have said it was a deliberate mating. All being well, one of these (who will be registered) will be mated to my Burmese boy next year. Meanwhile I hope to produce another two lines to put into the mix (I am waiting for one girl to be old enough and for another to call)

The alternative to oucrossing for this breed is to go to Thailand and get the original cats, and some of us have looked into this. It involves a substantial cost because of quarantine but the biggest issue is that no breeders in Thailand are actually producing these cats and that means the best place to get them is to buy them in a market. Not many guarantees there ... Or of course we can all carry on doing what we are doing until the breed becomes so unhealthy that it destroys itself.

We're not the worst breed for this by the way, there is one worse. WIth that breed, a breeder told me a couple of years ago that the most distantly related stud she could find in the whole country was her own girl's grandfather. Yes, now that is a very healthy situation.

Liz

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

buffie said:


> Just because there are no genetic tests routinely done on moggies surely does not mean that it is safe to assume that there are no genetic "faults"that will/could be passed on.


Obviously if I find any, I will have to test the line. I am not about to go looking for every genetic disease that's out there. By the time I have gone five generations, the chances of it still being carried will be very low and unless the cat is bred with another carrier it will never be an issue. We KNOW we have hypokalemia in two of my breeds and do you know what happens? It gets swept under the carpet, so you get poor little cats like my Gordon who are about 80% OK as long as they get their supplement but are ill for several days if they miss even one dose - and they need two doses a day. Gordon isn't even inbred but the condition is rife around the breed because people won't admit to having it. THAT is what we are doing to our pedigree cats so don't try to tell me that pedigrees are healthier!

Liz


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## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

Iread this thread with great intrest but im afraid i cant agree with this practice, you have in your words borrowed a moggy for a mating, do you know the complete history of this male cat? a lot of infections can be passed from saliva in cats and its quite common for male cats to bite female cats during mating and it would only need a knick on the skin for anything to be passed on to a female. Some members in here have been slated and verbally ripped to pieces for matings like this but you say you are doing to improve kittens? May i ask a question , what age will the kittens be sold to new owners, and what will they be advertised as? will they be vet checked and vacinated?


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

lizward said:


> Obviously if I find any, I will have to test the line. I am not about to go looking for every genetic disease that's out there. By the time I have gone five generations, the chances of it still being carried will be very low and unless the cat is bred with another carrier it will never be an issue. We KNOW we have hypokalemia in two of my breeds and do you know what happens? It gets swept under the carpet, so you get poor little cats like my Gordon who are about 80% OK as long as they get their supplement but are ill for several days if they miss even one dose - and they need two doses a day. Gordon isn't even inbred but the condition is rife around the breed because people won't admit to having it. THAT is what we are doing to our pedigree cats so don't try to tell me that pedigrees are healthier!
> 
> Liz


Liz I'm not trying to tell you anything.As I have already said I know very little regarding cat breeding . I just find it all confusing to say the least,that it is common practice among reputable breeders to have their breeding stock health tested,yet ,it appears that it is ok to introduce crossbreeding to improve,enlarge or whatever,the gene pool with moggies yet no health testing is done.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

raggs said:


> Iread this thread with great intrest but im afraid i cant agree with this practice, you have in your words borrowed a moggy for a mating, do you know the complete history of this male cat? a lot of infections can be passed from saliva in cats and its quite common for male cats to bite female cats during mating and it would only need a knick on the skin for anything to be passed on to a female. Some members in here have been slated and verbally ripped to pieces for matings like this but you say you are doing to improve kittens? May i ask a question , what age will the kittens be sold to new owners, and what will they be advertised as? will they be vet checked and vacinated?


I am well aware that there is a group of people on here who think moggy breeding is evil not because of the population issue but because of some perceived (but never quite defined) health issue. I don't agree (obviously)

ALL my kittens go at 13 weeks minimum vaccinated twice with Pentofel and microchipped. They will be advertised as part pedigrees, I suppose, the last two lots I advertised as half pedigrees.

Liz


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## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

lizward said:


> I am well aware that there is a group of people on here who think moggy breeding is evil not because of the population issue but because of some perceived (but never quite defined) health issue. I don't agree (obviously)
> 
> ALL my kittens go at 13 weeks minimum vaccinated twice with Pentofel and microchipped. They will be advertised as part pedigrees, I suppose, the last two lots I advertised as half pedigrees.
> 
> Liz


While i applaud the fact that you keep the kittens until they are 13 weeks old and are fully vaccinated and microchipped, i cant agree with the idea of mating a pedigree cat with a moggy,(not that theres anything wrong with moggies)Moggy breeding isnt at all evil, but why not have a male and a female moggy then? why mate a moggy with a pedigree cat,


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Why would someone mate a pedigree with a moggy or perhaps another different pedigree? Because if you keep crossing lines over and over, even with health testing, you end up with other genetic problems arising. It's simply not healthy to inbreed, for any advanced organism. 

Look at the ancient Egyptians--dynasty after dynasty fell because of mental and physical issues that arose over hundreds of years of inbreeding. Look at the European monarchy in the 19th century, riddled with haemophilia because of inbreeding (and not of the uncle x niece, or brother x sister sort--the crosses in lines for the monarchs would be more akin to crossing lines within a pedigree breed). 

And over here, the Amish, a very insular religious group who don't believe in modern conveniences (but apparently have a secret love of McDonalds) are having terrible troubles. They have married inside their group, which covers Pennsylvania, Ohio and pockets within the Midwest, for many generations. Now, they are developing strange genetic issues. There was recently a case of a baby who was taken away from her Amish parents because she was at the doctor's covered in bruises. The parents swore they didn't beat her and they were right. She had a relatively rare genetic predisposition to Vitamin K deficiency that caused her veins to become porous and leak blood under her skin, a condition that would eventually have killed her. It's become common among the Amish as it turns out. And that's not the only unusual genetic issues that they are starting to experience. Consequently, the Amish have started marrying outside their faith---bringing in moggies, if you will, to interbreed with--to open their genetic pool a bit.

If it's done responsibly, I see absolutely no reason from a scientific point of view, not to bring in outside blood to freshen a genetic line. In fact, one could argue that it's more responsible to do so, especially when genetic lines are as narrow as with the Amish.


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## Alaskacat (Aug 2, 2010)

Liz has explained why she has mated to a moggy - to bring in a new bloodline. I can clearly see why she would want to do that as she is greatly reducing not increasing the risk of many diseases. If I could find a stud that had no shared ancesters with my girls I would be happy, there is not one in my breed. Liz speaks a lot of sense and is very well educated about the risk of diseases. We all know that a one cat household has a lower risk of coronavirus, so a lower chance of a FIP kitten, in some cases an accidental litter baby has a greater chance of survival than a pedigree bred one - not in every case of course, but if an accidental litter is raised like a best practice pedigree one I don't see that those kittens would be any less healthy than an average pedigree litter.
We need to extensively health test pedigree cats largly because of their shared ancestry, I am sure we would all welcome diverse blood lines and I personnally applaud Liz for putting her money and effort into producing new bloodlines for her breed. 

Katy


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## loz83 (Mar 28, 2011)

dagny0823 said:


> Why would someone mate a pedigree with a moggy or perhaps another different pedigree? Because if you keep crossing lines over and over, even with health testing, you end up with other genetic problems arising. It's simply not healthy to inbreed, for any advanced organism.
> 
> Look at the ancient Egyptians--dynasty after dynasty fell because of mental and physical issues that arose over hundreds of years of inbreeding. Look at the European monarchy in the 19th century, riddled with haemophilia because of inbreeding (and not of the uncle x niece, or brother x sister sort--the crosses in lines for the monarchs would be more akin to crossing lines within a pedigree breed).
> 
> ...


absolutely spot on 

I was aware that the same went for pedigree dogs too. And in the dogs, pedigrees tend to die younger and have health problems at a lot younger age e.g cancers at only 1-3 years old ( i know two people that have had very young dogs had to be put down  ) I agree that different genetics are needed, and it is illegal for humans to interbreed for that very fact, that genetic disorders are so common.

While pedigrees are lovely, I would never pay for one,


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Alaskacat said:


> Liz has explained why she has mated to a moggy - to bring in a new bloodline. I can clearly see why she would want to do that as she is greatly reducing not increasing the risk of many diseases. If I could find a stud that had no shared ancesters with my girls I would be happy, there is not one in my breed. Liz speaks a lot of sense and is very well educated about the risk of diseases. We all know that a one cat household has a lower risk of coronavirus, so a lower chance of a FIP kitten, in some cases an accidental litter baby has a greater chance of survival than a pedigree bred one - not in every case of course, but if an accidental litter is raised like a best practice pedigree one I don't see that those kittens would be any less healthy than an average pedigree litter.
> We need to extensively health test pedigree cats largly because of their shared ancestry, I am sure we would all welcome diverse blood lines and I *personnally applaud Liz for putting her money and effort into producing new bloodlines for her breed*.


Considering that she chose a moggy because he is cheap -i.e free and that is one of the 3 reasons that she has given for using a moggy, in her cae with no known parentage, i wouldn't applaud her too loudly for putting her money into producing new bloodlines.


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## loz83 (Mar 28, 2011)

why are moggies considered a bad choice???

does everyone on here choose a partner and make a point of telling him/her to go get a health check???

theres enough ferals about breeding to know that moggies do perfectly well breeding that they dont need our intervention. 

If there were so many health risks with moggies, y does there seem to be so many of them??? wouldn't they all just be dying out?


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

loz83 said:


> why are moggies considered a bad choice???
> 
> does everyone on here choose a partner and make a point of telling him/her to go get a health check???
> 
> ...


Responsible breeding includes lots of health and sometimes genetic tests. You dont get those with moggies.

There are too many cats dieing in shelters, and the life span of ferals isnt amazing. Pedigree cats 'tend' to not end up in shelters due to their expense etc (though obviously some do)

Breeding with moggies, intentionally, seems silly to me. There is, literally, enough already. There are shelters full of them, why intentionally breed more.


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## loz83 (Mar 28, 2011)

Rescue centres are so picky that a lot of people cant gets cats/kittens from them. I was refused twice, i live 100m from a main road instead of 150m!!!! I was willing to take a cat in!!! Also, if you live outside their area, u cant have one, they have pics up and you find one u like and would be willing to have eg ok with children and other cats etc. then you get told no because u live too far away from them!!!!

My cats have always been from moggies which have bred, because i have no other option

(also, if you think i live near a main road, i have never had a cat run over yet)


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

I thought the whole point in health testing pedigrees was because they are prone to certain conditions that have been instilled in the breed, a result of trying to get that certain look you want. Moggies aren't prone to anything that I'm aware of  When you keep breeding them within a limited genetic pool then sure, you're going to have problems crop up but the beauty of the moggie is it's diversity. Again, this is just guesswork on my behalf but I'll start reading up on it tonight, but outcrossing to another pedigree doesn't exactly lower the chances of health issues or increase the genetic pool that much as you still have the fact that alot of pedigrees are inbred.



Going to go read stuff now, if I'm wrong I'm wrong, feel free to correct me!


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2011)

Out crossing is completely different in dogs. Out crossing is breeding from the same breed but from a different line. I believe what Liz has done in dog breeding is cross breeding. 

I agree with others who have said that although Liz has explained it, it still imo doesnt sit right with me. Moggy breeding is something I dont agree with even more so without testing for nearly everything possible because they are so....crossed with cats you have no idea what health you are throwing in the mix.

I am not against moggies (I have 3) and understand there has to be "someone" to meet the demand for people looking for a cheap cat but there is a limit imo since there are already 100's of "moggy breeders" out there...

New breeds are created by cross breeding yes. But usually with known health and known generations of parents before randomly mating.

I still say to improve a line you must know the health of the animal before adding it to your breeding program. Regardless of pedigree or moggy.


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## loz83 (Mar 28, 2011)

what happens if you can't find a different line?


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2011)

loz83 said:


> what happens if you can't find a different line?


What do you mean?


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## loz83 (Mar 28, 2011)

well, if you need to breed from a separate line, to prevent inbreeding, what happens if there isn't one? what if all that breed are related in some way??? 

would you cross with a different, but similar breed? 

(I'm very confused )


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

loz83 said:


> well, if you need to breed from a separate line, to prevent inbreeding, what happens if there isn't one? what if all that breed are related in some way???
> 
> would you cross with a different, but similar breed?
> 
> (I'm very confused )


Well that would be when 'crossbreeding' starts, but it is always usually for a particular reason. For example the BSH breed introduced to persian to create short haired persians.

its not a case of 'I cant find anyone to breed this cat with! Lets go find a moggy off the street instead.' A lot of thought goes into who to 'outcross' to, and there are always reasons.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2011)

loz83 said:


> well, if you need to breed from a separate line, to prevent inbreeding, what happens if there isn't one? what if all that breed are related in some way???
> 
> would you cross with a different, but similar breed?
> 
> (I'm very confused )


It works the same way with dogs and cats so I shall talk from dog experience.

Basiclly there are term of doing things:

In breeding - Close breeding (son, mother, father, daughter).

Line breeding - Breeding to relatives but not close relatives so cousins, 2nd cousins and so on.

Out crossing - Breeding to a different line in the breed.

Cross breeding - Breeding to a different breed all together.

All breeds will have more than 1 line so lets say Liz's pedigree cat (example breed) ragdoll came from Line A....there would be more than just line A in the country....if not...(not sure how common practise it is in cats but with dogs you would fly over to a country with a cat/dog you can use of the same breed who can give you what you are looking for).

Liz's pedigree is a Burmese...there is more than 1 line in the UK so no reason to cross breed.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

raggs said:


> While i applaud the fact that you keep the kittens until they are 13 weeks old and are fully vaccinated and microchipped, i cant agree with the idea of mating a pedigree cat with a moggy,(not that theres anything wrong with moggies)Moggy breeding isnt at all evil, but why not have a male and a female moggy then? why mate a moggy with a pedigree cat,


Because I am aiming to increase the gene pool in my chosen breed!

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Alaskacat said:


> We need to extensively health test pedigree cats largly because of their shared ancestry, I am sure we would all welcome diverse blood lines and I personnally applaud Liz for putting her money and effort into producing new bloodlines for her breed.
> 
> Katy


Thank you Katy

Liz


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## loz83 (Mar 28, 2011)

well thats cleared up that confusion 

but if its a relatives cat, surely its known whether the cat has had its jabs etc and what sort of health it is??? 

If its a healthy male I dont see as there's too much of a problem, other than they'll have to prob be sold a crosses and not full pedigree


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

hobbs2004 said:


> Considering that she chose a moggy because he is cheap -i.e free and that is one of the 3 reasons that she has given for using a moggy, in her cae with no known parentage, i wouldn't applaud her too loudly for putting her money into producing new bloodlines.


It still costs. Burmese kittens sell for £400 - £500 and since I have my own boy there are no costs involved in using him. Moggies have to be kept (if you use a female, I have a female I want to use for this), and the price you get for a pedigree x moggy kitten with all vaccinations at 13 weeks is £100 if you are VERY lucky. I seem to recall my last lot went for £50. Last year I ended up giving away two 3/4 pedigrees (they looked pedigree) for nothing at 7 months. So yes, it does cost. What it doesn't need is money up front and I'm afraid that is an issue in my house.

Liz


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## loz83 (Mar 28, 2011)

I think you do rite liz, dont blame you at all, can't always sell pedigrees because of how expensive they are, and even if they aren't pedigree people dont always want em  

and a lot of people dont have money to be spending willy nilly, and trawling over seas to find what you need to breed with


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

loz83 said:


> well, if you need to breed from a separate line, to prevent inbreeding, what happens if there isn't one? what if all that breed are related in some way???
> 
> would you cross with a different, but similar breed?
> 
> (I'm very confused )


That is exactly the position my breed is in. If you trace the pedigrees right back to foundation (the breed has been around since the 30s I think so it is possible to trace right back) and calculate the inbreeding coefficient, the average for the breed in the UK is more than 25%. 25% is what you get if you mate half siblings together. So on average every breeding we do with this breed is like mating half brother to half sister - again and again and again and again. That is the problem. With this breed we cannot register imported cats with GCCF so we can't even open up the lines that way. The GCCF are taking this situation seriously and are addressing the issue of small gene pools but it does take time.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Liz's pedigree is a Burmese...there is more than 1 line in the UK so no reason to cross breed.


I'm afraid this is factually incorrect. Every Burmese in the world traces back to one cat - Wong Mau. The pedigrees at the start of the breed just have the same three or four cats over and over and over again, Wong Mau was crossed with Siamese and then one of the offspring was crossed back to Wong Mau and it went from there. If you trace UK pedigrees back, you don't have to go very far before you find all the same names appearing all over again. It's bad, I tell you. We have nowhere near the minimum number of foundation individuals that are required for a healthy gene pool.

Liz


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## MatildaG (Nov 8, 2010)

Hi there,

I'm also finding this thread interesting but there is one point I don't understand which Liz might be able to help with. Lots of people have said the sense behind introducing a moggie is bringing new blood into the breed but how is introducing the moggy furthering a breed? Surenly any resulting kittens, and the however many generations down the line, won't be a particular 'breed', they will just be generations and generations of moggies??


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

lizward said:


> That is exactly the position my breed is in. If you trace the pedigrees right back to foundation (the breed has been around since the 30s I think so it is possible to trace right back) and calculate the inbreeding coefficient, the average for the breed in the UK is more than 25%. 25% is what you get if you mate half siblings together. So on average every breeding we do with this breed is like mating half brother to half sister - again and again and again and again. That is the problem. With this breed we cannot register imported cats with GCCF so we can't even open up the lines that way. The GCCF are taking this situation seriously and are addressing the issue of small gene pools but it does take time.
> 
> Liz


I really wish you guys would stop using scientific concepts you don't understand. I am quite sure that a half-sibling mating would result in 12.5% inbreeding coefficient. 25% would be the result of more familiar matings, such as father-daughter, mother-son, brother-sister (of G^1)


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2011)

lizward said:


> I'm afraid this is factually incorrect. Every Burmese in the world traces back to one cat - Wong Mau.
> Liz


I am sure the same can be said for every other breed of cat and dog however there were females used too to produce the cats.

Lets say wong was put to - Cat 1 in 1900 (example)
And wong was put to cat 2 in 1901.

There is still a seperate line with cat 2 that any cat gerations later can be used to. Yes all Burmese are related to eachother by 100's of years as is with most breeds. Hows ever cross breeding is still a no no.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

MatildaG said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I'm also finding this thread interesting but there is one point I don't understand which Liz might be able to help with. Lots of people have said the sense behind introducing a moggie is bringing new blood into the breed but how is introducing the moggy furthering a breed? Surenly any resulting kittens, and the however many generations down the line, won't be a particular 'breed', they will just be generations and generations of moggies??


Once you have your outcross, you start breeding back to the target breed. Depending on the registry and the breed, you can eventually get the results registered as the target breed. This is probably easiest with FIFe and so that might well be where I shall register them. It is certainly possible with TICA and also with GCCF (GCCF takes longer)

It's a long term project obviously.

Liz


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## gladass (Jan 6, 2011)

Alaskacat said:


> Liz has explained why she has mated to a moggy - to bring in a new bloodline. I can clearly see why she would want to do that as she is greatly reducing not increasing the risk of many diseases. If I could find a stud that had no shared ancesters with my girls I would be happy, there is not one in my breed. Liz speaks a lot of sense and is very well educated about the risk of diseases. We all know that a one cat household has a lower risk of coronavirus, so a lower chance of a FIP kitten, in some cases an accidental litter baby has a greater chance of survival than a pedigree bred one - not in every case of course, but if an accidental litter is raised like a best practice pedigree one I don't see that those kittens would be any less healthy than an average pedigree litter.
> We need to extensively health test pedigree cats largly because of their shared ancestry, I am sure we would all welcome diverse blood lines and I personnally applaud Liz for putting her money and effort into producing new bloodlines for her breed.
> 
> Katy


So she is introducing a new bloodline but does not know what the hell is behind said bloodline. The title of this thread is a joke imo especially if this is indeed her plans for the future--breeding better healthy kitties but hell imo she started it all wrong not even knowing the background of said Stud cat


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## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

My knowledge of the Burmese breed isnt that great soiask those that may know, is there a list of breeds permitted by the GCCF that can be used as outcrosses with the Burmese breed, Mating a moggy with a pedigree just doesnt seem to be the right thing to do , god knows what faults you could be unknowing breeding into them unless you can trace the moggies back several generations


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## gladass (Jan 6, 2011)

lizward said:


> I'm afraid this is factually incorrect. Every Burmese in the world traces back to one cat - Wong Mau. The pedigrees at the start of the breed just have the same three or four cats over and over and over again, Wong Mau was crossed with Siamese and then one of the offspring was crossed back to Wong Mau and it went from there. If you trace UK pedigrees back, you don't have to go very far before you find all the same names appearing all over again. It's bad, I tell you. We have nowhere near the minimum number of foundation individuals that are required for a healthy gene pool.
> 
> Liz


So how do you knopw that the Moggie used has no Burmese in its make up??


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> I am sure the same can be said for every other breed of cat and dog however there were females used too to produce the cats.
> 
> Lets say wong was put to - Cat 1 in 1900 (example)
> And wong was put to cat 2 in 1901.
> ...


Wong Mau was female. Cross breeding in cats is called outcrossing and, as I have said, is permitted in some breeds - including Burmese. RSPCA recommendations for dog breeds are that a breed needs at least 60 unrelated individuals as foundation cats or outcrosses in its gene pool. I don't know exactly how many are in the Burmese but Singapuras have only 10 and Burmese come second to Singapuras in terms of inbreeding. http://www.gccfcats.org/pdf/BreedingPolicy.pdf

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gladass said:


> So how do you knopw that the Moggie used has no Burmese in its make up??


I don't know that.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

raggs said:


> My knowledge of the Burmese breed isnt that great soiask those that may know, is there a list of breeds permitted by the GCCF that can be used as outcrosses with the Burmese breed, Mating a moggy with a pedigree just doesnt seem to be the right thing to do , god knows what faults you could be unknowing breeding into them unless you can trace the moggies back several generations


At present the Burmese BAC has exactly the same rules for ALL outcrosses - you have to go through 5 generations of Burmese to Burmese after the outcross regardless of what the outcross is. That may change, there is pressure for it to change and, for example, allow Asian variants, but at present those are the rules. If you import a Burmese from another country the same thing applies because you can only register that import as "Burmese type". Bizarre, isn't it, but that is how it is.

Liz


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2011)

Liz....

How many kittens have been in this litter and the litters you have previously produced using this mix and how many do you keep?


Also.....

Most Shelties in the UK are related to one another however they split into different lines, meaning for example line A has produced dogs with better ears (for example) and line B has produced dogs with bigger coats....line C has produced dogs with stronger herding instincts. You are telling me there are no other cats of your cats breed that you could breed to without it being a close in breeding?


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## gladass (Jan 6, 2011)

lizward said:


> I don't know
> 
> Liz


So why quote Co efficiency percentages when it may not even relate to this litter and why oh why do you indeed think you are breeding healthy kittens if you do not know the make up of the moggie ?? Beats me indeed
You have actually made yourself a laughing stock in my eyes(although poor cats suffering) by your hit and miss so called future breeding healthy outcross cats lol Maybe you need to rethink your plans and actually start with a moggie you indeed know the full background of and maybe then you will not need to ask ( as a Breeder) Emm anyone know what these could be


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

hobbs2004 said:


> I really wish you guys would stop using scientific concepts you don't understand. I am quite sure that a half-sibling mating would result in 12.5% inbreeding coefficient. 25% would be the result of more familiar matings, such as father-daughter, mother-son, brother-sister (of G^1)


Gosh, you're right. In that case it's even worse than I thought.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Hows ever cross breeding is still a no no.


Not according to the GCCF. I am not asking you to outcross your dogs.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> How many kittens have been in this litter and the litters you have previously produced using this mix and how many do you keep?


I have kept one from each litter so far and intend to do the same this time.



> You are telling me there are no other cats of your cats breed that you could breed to without it being a close in breeding?


Yes. If you take the inbreeding coefficient back to foundation, that is exactly what I am saying. Now I do, of course, also breed Burmese in the usual way, but the point is that I am working on this long term project and, frankly, I am rather surprised at the negative reaction.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gladass said:


> So why quote Co efficiency percentages when it may not even relate to this litter


Well, the chances of the boy being part Burmese are rather low, and he isn't going to be the only moggy in the mix



> and why oh why do you indeed think you are breeding healthy kittens if you do not know the make up of the moggie ?? Beats me indeed


Sorry, I really don't see how I can make it any clearer



> You have actually made yourself a laughing stock in my eyes(although poor cats suffering)


O here we go again, the poor cat is suffering because she has kittens. Yeah, right.



> Maybe you need to rethink your plans and actually start with a moggie you indeed know the full background of


That, by definition, is impossible

Liz


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

I'd be very interested to hear which cat club/organisation allows you to mate your queens with any old moggie without health testing ... and then lets you register them?

For anyone questioning why it's a problem to mate a ped with an unhealth tested moggie. Do you understand what a moggie is?

A moggie is a cat that is made up of several different breeds. This could be 10% BSH, 5% Birman, 3% Siamese 10% Maine coon ... etc etc (totally made up percentages, and each moggie will have a different set of percentages and breeds). All of those breeds have health problems. You can never know what make up (of breeds) each individual moggie has in them, so you can't possibly know what to test for, or even if it's safe to not test for everything know in all breeds.

Yes, if a breed/generation is diluted enough in the percentage of an individual cats make up, the conditions/health problems in that part of it will be less likely to mutate or develop. BUT it's NOT impossible for it to do so, and recessive genes can be a bugger too!

You put 1 BSH to another BSH, you test for all the known health issues in that breed and the known issues in the couple of other breeds known to contribute to the breed.

You put 1 BSH to a moggie ... what the hell to you test for to be safe when you don't have a clue of the parentage of the moggie?

Or you could just let it happen with no concern for conditions, hereditary or otherwise. If anything should happen to the kittens produced you just put it down to bad luck and carry on and on and on. Creating a whole new selection of conditions in the breed your trying to make healthier.

I honestly think Outcrossing (and any other crossing) should be left to closely monitored individuals. Not people who haven't a clue, or who could care less about the implications of what they are doing.

I'm no genealogist, but it doesn't take much more than common sense to understand the basics.

It's a bit like mixing primary colours to create new colours. Yes the new colours look completely different, but the original colours would still be there in the make up of that new colour and if any were to be added it creates yet another new colour ... BUT the original colours would still be there. You can't get rid of those original colours no matter how hard you try, because for the new colour to exsist in the first place it had to be there. ... :lol: I hope that makes sense


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

I thought the health issues in pedigrees was due to constant inbreeding? Reinforced health issues was basically my understanding.


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## gladass (Jan 6, 2011)

lizward said:


> I am rather surprised at the negative reaction.
> 
> Liz


Well I am rather negative due to your opening question on this Thread!!!
Makes me think you are breeding blind so to speak

Below is taken from GCCF:
The skill in breeding lies in the choice of the individual cats to be used and what the results are likely to be should these cats be mated with each other-

Outcome for your breeding is the fact you have to come onto a forum to ask what ya have there


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

loz83 said:


> why are moggies considered a bad choice???
> 
> does everyone on here choose a partner and make a point of telling him/her to go get a health check???
> 
> ...


Given the fact that cats will mate a give birth at an alarming rate when feral ... think about it! The survival rate must be pretty bad, else we really would be overrun in this country with feral cats!

I wish certain members was here rolleyes I know they both have excellent answers for this, and even percentages if I remember correctly.

_I think_ feral kittens are lucky to live passed the age of 18 months(?). This is due to overbreeding, disease, hereditary conditions, fighting and a few more reasons to boot.


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## Cloudygirl (Jan 9, 2011)

so when the first mating with the moggy was done was the moggy health tested at that point?

If not, how could you know that the outcross was a success in relation to health issues?

I'm actually interested in this. Liz would you mind expanding a little about this. How many generations are you on so far and what matings have occured?

At what point do you think you could register them?


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## gladass (Jan 6, 2011)

lizward said:


> O here we go again, the poor cat is suffering because she has kittens. Yeah, right.
> 
> Liz


Nope its kitties that may suffer due to your so called outcross breeding practices, breeding blind with a stud may lead to disaster for poor kittens


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

I would have thought for them to be registered they would have to become a recognised new breed  ? As moggies surely wont be approved outcrosses...


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> I'd be very interested to hear which cat club/organisation allows you to mate your queens with any old moggie without health testing ... and then lets you register them?


um, GCCF 

Liz


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

lizward said:


> um, GCCF
> 
> Liz


I thought they don't register cats that are from parents not on the active register? how can a moggy be on the active register :S


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Gratch said:


> I thought the health issues in pedigrees was due to constant inbreeding? Reinforced health issues was basically my understanding.


It will be partly why. So then ask yourself this ... How do you know your moggie (or anyone elses) hasn't come from a line that has some seriously close inbreeding going on?

You'd be more likely to know in the world of pedigree breeding as breeding lines are monitored. But when your cat goes out one night and gets it on with the local tom how do you know that local tom is not her father or brother? Given that kittens are often homed to people that live locally to you ... how do you know that it's not happening over and over again year after year?

*not you and your cats personally, but I think you know what I mean.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> I would have thought for them to be registered they would have to become a recognised new breed  ? As moggies surely wont be approved outcrosses...


O for goodness sake. The GCCF Burmese registration policy is here. Don't take my word for it, why should you? I mean, I wouldn't bother researching it first, would I?

http://www.gccfcats.org/regpols/burmeseregpol.pdf

For TICA it's even more lenient, otucrossing is allowed freely in all new breeds and European burmese are regarded as a new breed because they are different from US Burmese.

With FIFe there is a "novice" status whereby in some breeds (including Burmese) you can present your cross-bred adult cat to two judges and if they both agree it is a good example of the target breed, it gets re-registered as that breed.

I have already said: Moggies HAVE been used already in Burmese and Asians, and no doubt in other breeds too. If you see a red, cream or tortie Burmese, one of its ancestors was a moggy. If you see a bombay, one of its ancestors was probably a moggy. You have to go quite a way back in the pedigree to find them but they are there.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> I thought they don't register cats that are from parents not on the active register? how can a moggy be on the active register :S


You are confused between the non-active and reference register. I have here two cats who are both half pedigrees and both on the active register. One is called Huggibear Steely Dan and the other is called Huggibear Black Bess. Years ago, I had another two. I think it is also possible (though I have never tried) to register a full moggy and, if it is possible, he can be registered on the active register.

Liz


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Aye I see what you mean. Glad my two are from vastly different areas but doesn't mean that their parents couldn't have mated with a sibling/parent.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gladass said:


> Nope its kitties that may suffer due to your so called outcross breeding practices, breeding blind with a stud may lead to disaster for poor kittens


That is FAR more likely when breeding pedigrees, I'm afraid.

Liz


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

One other thing though, didn't all pedigrees start off as moggies? I'm not trying to be awkward, I just thought pedigrees were moggies that had been bred to others of the same characteristics to create a breed

Edit: I should clarify. I know they're bred to others of the same breed, I meant at the breeds origins before anyone picks me up wrong


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Cloudygirl said:


> so when the first mating with the moggy was done was the moggy health tested at that point?


No. As I have already explained (though it will be several pages back) there is no advantage to this that I can see. Genetic testing, yes, for pedigrees. Health testing, no point. You just make sure your own cats are properly vaccinated and you minimise contact.



> If not, how could you know that the outcross was a success in relation to health issues?


 I don't understand the question, sorry.



> I'm actually interested in this. Liz would you mind expanding a little about this. How many generations are you on so far and what matings have occured?


It depends how you count them. I guess I'm still on the first, counting the most logical way, since I have gone out from the outcross and have not yet gone back in. Three matings so far, one in 2009, one last year and one this year. I tried a fourth but the girl never came fully onto call so that didn't work. Hoping for three more later in the summer, and then I will have to cross the outcrosses to one another and then go back in.



> At what point do you think you could register them?


At four weeks. Yes I know that isn't what you meant, but as I have said several times now, they ARE registered (except my latest litter who are only just four weeks old)

Liz


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2011)

I am just thankful the KC dont allow people to register just any dogs, at least they have to be full breeds (yes once upon a time crossed but selectively bred over time to produce a similar standard and health) rather than any mix that could throw all sorts of problems. 

I just fail to see how adding a un health tested animal to any sort of breeding program benefits the breed.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

http://www.gccfcats.org/regpols/asianregpol.pdf

An interesting read! Given that there are a few indications there of only crossing to tested outcrosses for all manor of things.

How can you register them if you haven't tested the moggie tom?


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Also on reading this http://www.gccfcats.org/regpols/burmeseregpol.pdf going by point number 2 ... I take it your litter of Burmese x moggie are not/can't be _fully_ registered? So which registry are they on?


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## loz83 (Mar 28, 2011)

from what i read of that liz, is it right that ur kittens can be put on the reference register for a number of generations?

understand y u dont want to breed abroad either, they dont get registered do they until the 'foreign' cat has had its ancestry checked and genes checked

is that right, please correct me if im wrong


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> http://www.gccfcats.org/regpols/asianregpol.pdf
> 
> An interesting read! Given that there are a few indications there of only crossing to tested outcrosses for all manor of things.
> 
> How can you register them if you haven't tested the moggie tom?


I can't register these as Asians and am not trying to, these are an outcross for Burmese. Our Asian gene pool is a lot healthier. If you read that Asian policy you will see it is stated clearly that non-pedigrees were used (look under E)

I have in fact got my fourth generation of Asians (at last) from a Chinchilla outcross I did in 2002. And yes, I did the health tests that were required.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

loz83 said:


> from what i read of that liz, is it right that ur kittens can be put on the reference register for a number of generations?


Yes, five generations.



> understand y u dont want to breed abroad either, they dont get registered do they until the 'foreign' cat has had its ancestry checked and genes checked
> 
> is that right, please correct me if im wrong


It's not a case of not wanting to, and two people in our breed have indeed imported studs from abroad. They can't register those studs with GCCF, that's the problem. In fact one of them was told by the GCCF office that she might as well have bought a moggy! There are two other registries that will accept those cats. but one is very small and struggling in terms of shows, and the other does not yet recognise European Burmese except as a new (and therefore unshowable) breed.

Now to be fair, there was a very good reason for this restriction at the time. There was a very nasty gene that turned up in some US Burmese lines which caused horribly deformed kittens, and the Burmese breeders in the UK did not want it over here and who can blame them? But now we all know where those defective lines are and they can be avoided, and the defect never did turn up in Australia or Europe. Once the policy is revised and the rule is removed, no doubt many of us will be importing studs and that will help a lot.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> Also on reading this http://www.gccfcats.org/regpols/burmeseregpol.pdf going by point number 2 ... I take it your litter of Burmese x moggie are not/can't be _fully_ registered? So which registry are they on?


They have to go on the reference register for five generation (in practice it has to be six I think since they have to be called Burmese for five generations and that can't happen until they actually look like Burmese)

It's a long term project as I said.

Liz


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

This has been a fascinating thread to read. Working with Brits we don't have the gene pool issues that Burmese breeders do. 

So it's very interesting the hear about the processes and the GCCF policies to expand the pool. I personally am impressed by the efforts and commitment by breeders to new or struggling breeds. I hope that everything works out well in your programme Liz.


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## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

One final thing i would like to add from my point of view is how nice its been to have a discussion like this on here where members have differing views and not see it turn into a verbal battle , There have been some strong opinions both for and against Liz's breeding policies and this thread has made very interesting reading with members opinions being posted in a sensible manner, thanks to all who contributed, especially Liz who started this thread. best wishes.........CHRIS.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

raggs said:


> One final thing i would like to add from my point of view is how nice its been to have a discussion like this on here where members have differing views and not see it turn into a verbal battle , There have been some strong opinions both for and against Liz's breeding policies and this thread has made very interesting reading with members opinions being posted in a sensible manner, thanks to all who contributed, especially Liz who started this thread. best wishes.........CHRIS.


Agree I have been amazed at how interesting this has been and how civil it has stayed. A big shiny STAR to all of you. Thank you Liz for starting this thread....Jill


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Dozymoo said:


> I hope that everything works out well in your programme Liz.


Thank you

Liz


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## XxZoexX (Sep 8, 2010)

A fascinating read!!! Hope it all works well


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## gladass (Jan 6, 2011)

lizward said:


> They have to go on the reference register for five generation (in practice it has to be six I think since they have to be called Burmese for five generations and that can't happen until they actually look like Burmese)
> 
> It's a long term project as I said.
> 
> Liz


I may have read the wrong piece on GCCF but does it not say 12 generations if Unknown cat used??


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gladass said:


> I may have read the wrong piece on GCCF but does it not say 12 generations if Unknown cat used??


They want to move to 12 generations "when possible" - I asked about this and it isn't possible yet and isn't likely to be in a hurry.

At the end of the day, if GCCF can't be done, I'd just use FIFe - in fact I might well just use FIFe anyway, it's a quicker process.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

XxZoexX said:


> A fascinating read!!! Hope it all works well


Thank you Zoe

Liz


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## sharon_gurney (Jan 27, 2010)

hobbs2004 said:


> I really wish you guys would stop using scientific concepts you don't understand. I am quite sure that a half-sibling mating would result in 12.5% inbreeding coefficient. 25% would be the result of more familiar matings, such as father-daughter, mother-son, brother-sister (of G^1)


Am reading this debate with great intrest, I like a few others did not know about outcrossing or cross breeds which ever you call it.

I understand the gene pool thing and the importance of a wider gene pool,

but need to say hobbs, eh? that went right over my head, Its not that im thick...blonde yes but just cant keep up!!!:blink:


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I found it interesting too  I applaud breeders' efforts in attempting to tackle gene pool problems, especially in a situation as dire as it is with the Burmese breed 

It's possible that the OP has a large group of breeders she's working with on this venture and if that's the case I wish them all success. If not then I can't really see how the introduction of one outcross cat is going to solve things or even go part way to a solution. It'll require many, many generations of crossing back to "pure bred" Burmese to achieve the required homozygousity and to be unitformly (within reason) producing excellent Burmese phenotype across whole litters.... which can only be achieved by continually dipping back into the "pure bred" Burmese gene pool with all its associated lack of divesity and problems.

It simply cannot be achieved with one cat; the numbers just don't add up


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

sharon_gurney said:


> Am reading this debate with great intrest, I like a few others did not know about outcrossing or cross breeds which ever you call it.
> 
> I understand the gene pool thing and the importance of a wider gene pool,
> 
> but need to say hobbs, eh? that went right over my head, Its not that im thick...blonde yes but just cant keep up!!!:blink:


Hehe, but that was partly my point. This whole Mendelesque discussion is being couched in some many (pseudo-)scientific terms: outcross breeding programme (making it sound so very grand and respectable) and inbreeding coefficient to name a few; the latter being used because it sounds dazzling (not saying this is what the OP has done but what it came across as in many other posts/sites I have read about this and breeding) and sounds as though people know what they are talking about but then they don't really know what it means.

The "inbreeding" coefficient that Liz has brought up to show just how bad things are with the Burmese breed simply refers to the probability of genes being shared (not what genes, just genes in general). The higher the coefficient, the greater the amount of shared genes (which is directly related to the degree to which humans/animals etc are related to each other)

Does that make more sense?


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## sharon_gurney (Jan 27, 2010)

hobbs2004 said:


> Hehe, but that was partly my point. This whole Mendelesque discussion is being couched in some many (pseudo-)scientific terms: outcross breeding programme (making it sound so very grand and respectable) and inbreeding coefficient to name a few; the latter being used because it sounds dazzling (not saying this is what the OP has done but what it came across as in many other posts/sites I have read about this and breeding) and sounds as though people know what they are talking about but then they don't really know what it means.
> 
> The "inbreeding" coefficient that Liz has brought up to show just how bad things are with the Burmese breed simply refers to the probability of genes being shared (not what genes, just genes in general). The higher the coefficient, the greater the amount of shared genes (which is directly related to the degree to which humans/animals etc are related to each other)
> 
> Does that make more sense?


oh yeah thats makes perfect sense....she says shaking her head. Hobbs are you taking the mickey????//:nono: sorry just not dumbed down enough


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## gladass (Jan 6, 2011)

lizward said:


> They want to move to 12 generations "when possible" - I asked about this and it isn't possible yet and isn't likely to be in a hurry.
> 
> At the end of the day, if GCCF can't be done, I'd just use FIFe - in fact I might well just use FIFe anyway, it's a quicker process.
> 
> Liz


I thought you had already posted that they would be registered with GCCF?? so are you not sure now


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## MaineCoonMommy (Feb 12, 2011)

I have painstakingly read every single post on this thread LOL. I found it very interesting. I am really curious about the other breed that is worse off as far as inbreeding. I've been wondering about all of this for a while after doing lots of research on this (I'm nosey, I gotta know everything) LOL.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gladass said:


> I thought you had already posted that they would be registered with GCCF?? so are you not sure now


At present I register my kittens with both. Members of FIFe clubs are required to register (or at least declare) kittens with FIFe first, it's one of the rules. They will be acceptable as full Burmese earlier with FIFe. Probably I'll end up doing both as usual.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

MaineCoonMommy said:


> I have painstakingly read every single post on this thread LOL. I found it very interesting. I am really curious about the other breed that is worse off as far as inbreeding.


Singapura - only ten founder individuals in the gene pool

Liz


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

I am really puzzled.... in the dog world this is scorned and called designer breeding... Read all the posts ,twice, and it sounds the same reasoning being used, so why is this accepted in the feline world. what is the difference


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> It simply cannot be achieved with one cat; the numbers just don't add up


O it's a gesture and a protest as much as anything, I admit. There are three cats involved though (at least I hope so, still waiting for number three to call). If all I achieve is a bit more size in my lines, that's something. Other breeders are pressing for imports to be permitted and some of us are looking seriously at importing Thong Daengs if we can ever find a way to do it. Those three things put together may help. What would help more than anything, of course, would be if breeders didn't throw up their hands in horror every time anyone wants an active register kitten.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

northnsouth said:


> I am really puzzled.... in the dog world this is scorned and called designer breeding... Read all the posts ,twice, and it sounds the same reasoning being used, so why is this accepted in the feline world. what is the difference


The motive and method are both completely different. In the dog world, you cross a waggytail with a woofybark and call them waggywoofs (you will appreciate I ma trying to avoid giving specific examples) and sell the waggywoofs as some fancy new breed for a higher price than either a waggytail or a woofybark. You then carry on developing the waggywoof, or you keep breeding mroe and more waggywoofs. Here, a Burmese is mated to a moggy and the offspring sell for about 1/4 of the price of a Burmese, then the next generation is mated to a different Burmese and perhaps they sell for about 1/2 the price of a Burmese, then the next generation is mated to a different Burmese (by now you have 7/8 pedigrees) and perhaps they sell for 2/3 the price of a Burmese. There is a financial cost, there is never any claim that a new breed is being produced, the kittens are sold simply as part pedigrees. By the time these are registerable as Burmese with the GCCF, they will be 63/64 Burmese, if only one moggy is put into the mix.

Liz


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> The motive and method are both completely different. In the dog world, you cross a waggytail with a woofybark and call them waggywoofs (you will appreciate I ma trying to avoid giving specific examples) and sell the waggywoofs as some fancy new breed for a higher price than either a waggytail or a woofybark. You then carry on developing the waggywoof, or you keep breeding mroe and more waggywoofs. Here, a Burmese is mated to a moggy and the offspring sell for about 1/4 of the price of a Burmese, then the next generation is mated to a different Burmese and perhaps they sell for about 1/2 the price of a Burmese, then the next generation is mated to a different Burmese (by now you have 7/8 pedigrees) and perhaps they sell for 2/3 the price of a Burmese. There is a financial cost, there is never any claim that a new breed is being produced, the kittens are sold simply as part pedigrees. By the time these are registerable as Burmese with the GCCF, they will be 63/64 Burmese, if only one moggy is put into the mix.
> 
> Liz


Thanks... That is clear explanatian.


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

i have read this post and found it amazing interesting and just from the 1st two pages i completly understood what you were saying it began to fustrate me when other didnt understand why...its great that your widening the gene pool and i think more should do it if the genes are so close!! brilliant post!! rep your way!x


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

lizward said:


> O it's a gesture and a protest as much as anything, I admit. There are three cats involved though (at least I hope so, still waiting for number three to call). If all I achieve is a bit more size in my lines, that's something. Other breeders are pressing for imports to be permitted and some of us are looking seriously at importing Thong Daengs if we can ever find a way to do it. Those three things put together may help. What would help more than anything, of course, would be if breeders didn't throw up their hands in horror every time anyone wants an active register kitten.
> 
> Liz


I appreciate you may be able to manage it quicker with another registry, but with the introduction of the new breeding policies I don't see how GCCF can possibly resist pressure which, I imagine, will be brought to bear by Burmese breeders, given that the aim of introducing breeding policies is to ram home the point of maintaining genetic diversity! Perhaps that, coupled with allowing the proper importation of certain cats, will pave the way.


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## gladass (Jan 6, 2011)

lizward said:


> they will be 63/64 Burmese, if only one moggy is put into the mix.
> 
> Liz


So How can you guarantee % Burmese when you do not know if any Burmese behind the Moggie??


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## gladass (Jan 6, 2011)

With your outcross mating and the title of this thread are you not worried that type will be lost and that the offspring will bear too close a resemblance in type to the outcross breed??
How to you choose the kitten you want to keep for breeding back to your Burmese?


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2011)

lizward said:


> These are four weeks old tomorrow. Has anyone any idea what they are? They are not exactly what I was expecting!
> 
> View attachment 62781
> 
> ...


Yep! I know!
They are little moggie kittycats
Now do I get a prize


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Every breed has to start somewhere  There are actually only one or two actual 'pure' breed cats in existence; the rest were developed from a mish-mash into the recognisable pedigreed breeds we now have - and that includes some *highly* distinctive looking, instantly recognisable breeds that we have today. Most people forget that the likes of GCCF are not a registry of pure bred cats - they are a registry for pedigreed cats and there is a vast difference.

In some breeds, such as the Burmese, the actual available gene pool is critically low. I don't necessarily see the point of the OP using a mog (I love mogs so I say that only in the context of this discussion) as a means to an end, but I do appreciate the desperate need for outcrossing in the breed.


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## gladass (Jan 6, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> Every breed has to start somewhere  There are actually only one or two actual 'pure' breed cats in existence; the rest were developed from a mish-mash into the recognisable pedigreed breeds we now have - and that includes some *highly* distinctive looking, instantly recognisable breeds that we have today. Most people forget that the likes of GCCF are not a registry of pure bred cats - they are a registry for pedigreed cats and there is a vast difference.
> 
> In some breeds, such as the Burmese, the actual available gene pool is critically low. I don't necessarily see the point of the OP using a mog (I love mogs so I say that only in the context of this discussion) as a means to an end, but I do appreciate the desperate need for outcrossing in the breed.


I have been trying to read about this outcross thing re Burmese and am puzzled as to why a Moggie. Read somewhere that the founder Burmese Wau or whatever may have been a Burmese/ Siamese cross so gene pool confuses me lol


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## XxZoexX (Sep 8, 2010)

Just reading about this trying to understand a little more.. found this quote

_Example 2 (Permitted Outcross): LaPerms are another new breed witha curly coat (and are a 'Pedigree' cat). However, their permitted outcrosses are only to a domestic cat. The domestic cat is the only 'allowed' outcross for this breed. _

A domestic cat would be a moggy?? So the same type of thing?

Am i right in thinking that a "moggy's" genes would be very diluted/mixed and would this then mean that the pedigree traits lookswise would hopefully be more prevelant?

I know what im trying to say anddunno if im spitting it out right, hope that it doesnt come across as a stupid question im genuinely interested


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## gladass (Jan 6, 2011)

XxZoexX said:


> Just reading about this trying to understand a little more.. found this quote
> 
> _Example 2 (Permitted Outcross): LaPerms are another new breed witha curly coat (and are a 'Pedigree' cat). However, their permitted outcrosses are only to a domestic cat. The domestic cat is the only 'allowed' outcross for this breed. _
> 
> ...


I am as confused as you lol but I read about the Laperm and my understanding is that the only cross for this breed is to ber a domestic due to the history of them. They have a list of permitted crosses for Burmese and domestic is not on it as it comes under non recognised on GCCF page me thinks


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I think it's great that outcrossing is allowed where you have a very small gene pool in cats so many dog breeders would have a heart attack and complain about how they're losing purity in the breed . I have no problems with controlled outcrosses such as the LUA dalmations but surely you could be bringing in health problems from the moggie if you don't test. I know it's unlikely that your burmese and some random moggie both share a recessive gene that is going to cause problems in the kittens but it could be possible. Surely it would be better to use a cat that you know the genetic history of to limit the risk of that?


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## XxZoexX (Sep 8, 2010)

Ahh i see, Its so darn complicated this genealogy lark yet fascinating at the same time :lol:


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

staceydawlz said:


> i have read this post and found it amazing interesting and just from the 1st two pages i completly understood what you were saying it began to fustrate me when other didnt understand why...its great that your widening the gene pool and i think more should do it if the genes are so close!! brilliant post!! rep your way!x


Thank you

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> I appreciate you may be able to manage it quicker with another registry, but with the introduction of the new breeding policies I don't see how GCCF can possibly resist pressure which, I imagine, will be brought to bear by Burmese breeders, given that the aim of introducing breeding policies is to ram home the point of maintaining genetic diversity! Perhaps that, coupled with allowing the proper importation of certain cats, will pave the way.


The difficulty is that the majority of Burmese breeders are positively hostile to any idea of widening the gene pool. They don't appreciate the dangers of the present situation. I do hope the GCCF will bring pressure to bear that will change things.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gladass said:


> So How can you guarantee % Burmese when you do not know if any Burmese behind the Moggie??


O you can't, you simply assume the percentage in the moggy to be zero. Chances are pretty high that it is close to zero, after all.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gladass said:


> With your outcross mating and the title of this thread are you not worried that type will be lost and that the offspring will bear too close a resemblance in type to the outcross breed??


In short, no. You get the type back quite quickly. I have an Asian variant here who is very roughly 1/8 Chinchilla and her type is actually better than any of my Burmese.



> How to you choose the kitten you want to keep for breeding back to your Burmese?


Well, first you look for one with Burmese colouring, because that way it can actually be described as Burmese type and pattern (perhaps even as Burmese, I haven't tried it yet so I don't know what the registration slip will say). After that it's a matter of gender - if I need to mate one with my Burmese boy then obviously I need to keep a female and vice versa. If there's any choice beyond that I would always go for the biggest. In fact I generally keep two if it's important, that way you have a backup in case anything goes wrong (I was so desperate for my fourth generation of Asians after two consecutive years of failing to get them that this year I have five possible ways to get them, that's paranoia!)

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Yep! I know!
> They are little moggie kittycats
> Now do I get a prize


Um no, sorry, I was looking for an answer like CbCs :tongue_smilie:

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gladass said:


> I am as confused as you lol but I read about the Laperm and my understanding is that the only cross for this breed is to ber a domestic due to the history of them. They have a list of permitted crosses for Burmese and domestic is not on it as it comes under non recognised on GCCF page me thinks


There are no crosses permitted any more than any others - if you look at it there is a long list of what you can't have in the pedigree within 5 generations and then it says something like "or anything else that isn't Burmese". I read it many times before embarking on this, and that is my understanding. Still, if I'm wrong, there's still FIFe and TICA

Liz


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

This is fascinating reading, thanks. Until now, I thought "hybrid vigour" was a dirty word?


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Its taken me ages to read this thread lol,liz i think its great what you are doing (you do get the minority dont you!) good look with it all.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

koekemakranka said:


> This is fascinating reading, thanks. Until now, I thought "hybrid vigour" was a dirty word?


As an avid gardener, I love this! How do we know more about vegetables and flowers?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

we love bsh's said:


> Its taken me ages to read this thread lol,liz i think its great what you are doing (you do get the minority dont you!) good look with it all.


In the minority? O yes, in every aspect of my life! Thanks

Liz


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