# Please help - adult dog suddenly started to bite



## SJ701 (Feb 23, 2014)

Im having a total nightmare with my JRT, Ive owned my dog since a pup, he was socialised as a pup, really well behaved, got on fine with all people he met, could be a bit funny if other dogs came running up to him but would be ok if it was a slow introduction, when he turned 2 I decided it was time to get him castrated, I know I probably should of had it done sooner but where it didn't cause any problems, I just kept putting it off, anyway had him castrated, his behaviour started to change slightly then for the worse, he became more aggressive to other dogs, including my elderly bitch, it wasn't very often and only if someone knocked on the door or something like that, there was always a trigger and he would stop as soon as I went to where he was.

About 4 months ago I moved back in with my parents, and about 3 months ago I had to have my bitch put to sleep due to age related issues.

My little dog is now beyond recognition, he hates going on walks, if he see's someone just walking along the street, he gets his heckles up and growls, I reassure him and just keep on walking, he does the same if he even see's another dog, he just seems scared of everything and his fear makes him aggressive.

Now the worse part of his behaviour I have not witnessed as he only does it when I am out of the house, it started with my mother saying he had cornered her barking really nastily at her, teeth bared, snarling, growling and barking, it isn't every day, it isn't every week, it just seems out of the blue and only when I am not there, he has done this about 4 times now and the last time she had a mark on her leg, but we couldn't tell if it was his claws or teeth, up until this week it was only my mother he did this too and only when she was alone with him, never when myself or my father were in, anyway this week that's changed, he went for my father when he tried to put my dog out in the garden, then two days ago, he started barking like mad, I was upstairs and came down to him barking at my father, I was told it wasn't as bad as he gets but that was how it normally started, I walked over and put my hand on his shoulders and just told him to stop, I didn't shout, just used a stern voice, he stopped straight away. I came home from work yesterday and he had bitten my fathers leg and drawn blood and now I have just come home from work to find he has bitten my father and drawn blood again, apparently he actually latched on to my fathers leg and my father had to hit him across the nose to get him to unlock his jaws and let go, this was because someone knocked at the door and my father was just to get him out into the other room so he could open the door, the first time he bit my father it was more of a nip type bite while barking.

I really don't know what to do, I have only moved home so me and my fiancé can save up for a bigger house and when we do, we will have two children living with us, I can't risk him biting a child! Well I cant risk him biting anyone but with kids being lower to the ground, he could easily get their face and scar them for life!

Ive always owned big breeds before and they have always been so well behaved, he is my first terrier and first male dog, always been rottie and german shepherd bitches before, I just don't know what to do when he only goes full out when Im not there.

I know he needs to see a behaviourist but wouldn't they need to see him at his worse and how will I know its worked if he doesn't behave badly when Im around? I've never given up a dog or rehomed or whatever, all problems have always been worked through but where do you place your step kids safety, I cant tell them to never go near him or never go into a room alone with him, I cant be everywhere.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

You need to take him to the vets so they can do a thorough check. Dogs don't usually change out of the blue unless there is a medical reason - he could be in pain and doesn't trust your family not to hurt him (though unintentionally on their part of course), he could have a thyroid problem as this can cause sudden behaviour changes too.

If it isn't any of this then a vet can 'prescribe' a behaviourist which you should be able to claim through insurance to help with his issues. Sometimes you just don't see the subtle signs he is giving off whereas a good behaviourist should be able to pick up on these. Also of course only go with one who uses positive methods.

A vet would be my fist port of call, I'm sure there are people on here who can give you more advice and ideas too, but I hope I've been if some help


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

I would have him pts if it was me, he sounds very unpredictable and it's not on for him to be biting your parents either, how old are they?? I know if my dog bit, or even growled at one of my parents, they wouldn't let the dog in the house again. 

If you go down the behaviourist route see if you can get some of his behaviour on camera so they can really examine what he's like? 
In the meantime I think you should muzzle him before he starts doing real damage.


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## Quinzell (Mar 14, 2011)

I definitely agree that the first stop should be the vets. Pain can be responsible for dramatic changes in human behaviour; its no different for dogs and I have witnessed this first hand.

Good luck and please keep us posted.


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## Quinzell (Mar 14, 2011)

Sparkle22 said:


> I would have him pts if it was me, he sounds very unpredictable and it's not on for him to be biting your parents either, how old are they?? I know if my dog bit, or even growled at one of my parents, they wouldn't let the dog in the house again.


You wouldn't even take you dog to the vets?


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

Depends on the circumstances really. 

If it was totally, completely, utterly out of the blue sudden aggression then yes I would take her to the vet.

But from how I interpreted the post it sounds like the dog always had an issue which has been steadily getting worse. 

I have to say, if my dog bit someone's leg and wouldn't let go, I would be hesitant to keep her as I would worry about her safety. 

The op said the dog slowly got worse after castration but had always been a bit funny with other dogs if not introduced slowly and started being aggressive towards her other dog whenever the door went, it seems to have gotten progressively worse since the other dog passed away.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Sparkle22 said:


> Depends on the circumstances really.
> 
> If it was totally, completely, utterly out of the blue sudden aggression then yes I would take her to the vet.
> 
> ...


Lots of dogs are funny with other dogs, it is in no way connected with human aggression, from what I read the HA has come on in the last few months, which would suggest to me that he should have a thorough checkup at the vets, & either treatment or a referral to a behaviourist before people start suggesting PTS.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Sparkle22 said:


> *I would have him pts if it was me,* he sounds very unpredictable and it's not on for him to be biting your parents either, how old are they?? I know if my dog bit, or even growled at one of my parents, they wouldn't let the dog in the house again.
> 
> If you go down the behaviourist route see if you can get some of his behaviour on camera so they can really examine what he's like?
> In the meantime I think you should muzzle him before he starts doing real damage.


OP, please do not listen to people online telling you to put your dog down.
Get him to a vets ASAP and find a decent behaviourist. Where are you situated?


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

simplysardonic said:


> Lots of dogs are funny with other dogs, it is in no way connected with human aggression, from what I read the HA has come on in the last few months, which would suggest to me that he should have a thorough checkup at the vets, & either treatment or a referral to a behaviourist before people start suggesting PTS.





Pupcakes said:


> OP, please do not listen to people online telling you to put your dog down.
> Get him to a vets ASAP and find a decent behaviourist. Where are you situated?


Pts is what I personally would do in this situation, but I highly highly doubt the op is going to euthanise her dog just because that's what I would do so do calm yourselves.

She said the dog needs to see a behaviourist so euthanasia clearly isn't an option for her anyway!

I was just saying what I personally would do and did also mention that it might be helpful to capture the dogs behaviour on video for the behaviourist to examine and also that it would be good to muzzle the dog for her parents safety.


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## SJ701 (Feb 23, 2014)

The aggression towards people has only been within the past 2 to 2 and a half months but it is gradually getting worse, so its only been the past couple of weeks where he has left marks or actually bitten, before that it was just barking and refusing to go where he was told. He never bit or growled or barked at anyone until my other dog was put to sleep, that seemed to have been the turning point but his temperament and outlook on life started to change when he was castrated, by becoming very nervous and wary of new people or new situations.

He was castrated about 10 months ago and the aggression towards my elderly dog started about 2 months after that.

Before he was castrated he was straight over to people but now if he is in my car and anyone comes to the door to see him, he will cower in the footwell, he acts like he has been mistreated or never socialised but that isn't the case.

He has always been quite a vocal dog but never nasty, I have also noticed he is getting more and more clingy with me, often he will follow me around so close that his head is actually touching my leg as I walk along and he will sit at my feet with his chin rested on my foot.

Having him put to sleep feels a major cop out, like I just cant be bothered to sort out his problems, obviously I don't want him to bite anyone for whatever reason but there has to be a reason for his behaviour, surely if he was just a nasty dog, he would be nasty all the time, if I were here or not? Which is why I think its a training problem, possibly medical. If I cant change his behaviour or find out what is causing it, then I would be forced to consider having him put to sleep but that would be the last resort. 

I am in Kent.

I've booked to take him to the vets after payday, is there any tests I should request are carried out? And Ive spoken to a local behaviourist and am going to speak to others to see who I like the sound of most.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

SJ701 said:


> The aggression towards people has only been within the past 2 to 2 and a half months but it is gradually getting worse, so its only been the past couple of weeks where he has left marks or actually bitten, before that it was just barking and refusing to go where he was told. He never bit or growled or barked at anyone until my other dog was put to sleep, that seemed to have been the turning point but his temperament and outlook on life started to change when he was castrated, by becoming very nervous and wary of new people or new situations.
> 
> He was castrated about 10 months ago and the aggression towards my elderly dog started about 2 months after that.
> 
> ...


Was he particularly fearful before being neutered? It has been found that *sometimes* neutering a fearful dog can make them worse, maybe being with your other dog gave him confidence and now, a combination of not having his friend and neutering, plus moving house, has made him confused and worried and he's just reacting to the new situation.

Glad you've booked him in to the vets, I don't know the tests they need to perform, but I'ms sure someone else here knows more than I do.

I wouldn't consider pts until all other avenues have been exhausted, but I work with a rescue who try to save the lives, rehabilitate then rehome dogs like this all the time. They'd never put a healthy dog to sleep when there are so many things you can do to help them.

Hope the vets can give you some answers and you find a good behaviourist. You could try looking for one who knows terriers as they have their own little quirks. Hope he's not been too much of a terror today!


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## SJ701 (Feb 23, 2014)

No not really, he was really hyper and bold but he is neither anymore.

Maybe it is my fault, after years of owning big dogs that had bad reputations, I was really on top of their behaviour all the time, I had thought I treated him the same but maybe I didn't.

He has been as quiet as a lamb all day since I've been home with him, but then he always is, its a horrible situation.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I honestly don't know what tests would be needed at the vets (I do know they would be more invasive than just a physical check, like bloodworks), I've left a visitor message for a member who's pretty clued up, so hopefully she will be able to advise you x


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

It is known that neutering a dog who is fearful or tense etc can make the issues worse. To me it seems a bit of a coincidence that this aggression has started only after the neutering.

I agree that the first port of call really should be the vet. I'm not sure but I *think* the tests needed are for the thyroid - either SLED DOG HOTEL or SMOKEY BEAR will know more, hopefully they will see this thread.

Really wish you all the best.

Let us know how you get on?

One more thing - run like hell from any trainer who talks about 'dominance' or your being 'the alpha'.

Only use a trainer who uses force free, positive methods.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

In the meantime...damage limitation. Agree, either leave him in a muzzle (the basket type, not a fabric one) or in a crate if he's crate trained' so he can't bite again, at least till you see a behaviourist. Your poor parents must be pretty scared of him by now.
Terriers seem to suffer more than some breeds from 'redirected' aggression and this may be why he attacked your other dog. If he has only bitten your parents on the back of another event (eg, post arrives, phone rings) this could be the case.
He may not like the restrictions, but it will prevent him getting into more trouble.
Sounds like he's gone over the edge with the fearfulness, hope someone is able to help you with this.
Try the APDT for a behaviourist who is knowledgeable and regulated.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2014)

SJ701 said:


> I know he needs to see a behaviourist but wouldn't they need to see him at his worse and how will I know its worked if he doesn't behave badly when Im around?


No. A good behaviorist will not want to see a dog as his worst, and honestly, I would be wary of a behaviorist who allows a dog to get that far past over threshold on purpose. Any behaviorist worth their salt will have the skills to be able to do a thorough evaluation with the owner and then observe the dog BELOW threshold.

You and your dog have gone though some major life changes recently, which may have a lot to do with the behavior changes. I would still definitely get a thorough vet exam done including full thyroid panel followed up with a visit with a qualified behaviorist. 
It may be that the dog will never be safe with kids, but none of us are in any position to advise you on that. If that is the case, again a *good* behaviorist should have some contacts and suggestions for you.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

"That dog sounds like he is in pain" was my very first thought. I'm not a dog expert by any means, but it does sound like something hurts.

Let us know how the vet visit goes, I hope you have a good vet. One that already knows your dog, and is open minded and thorough? Not prone to dismissing pet owners' concerns or reaching for a quick fix?

By the way, has his diet changed? Or perhaps the food you are feeding has changed it's formula? Certain foods or additives can cause behavior issues.

Have a read on the label of his food. Look for things like sugar, syrup, sodium nitrites, other artificial preservatives or dyes or flavorings, stuff like that. Also corn.

I'm wondering if a diet improvement would help, but of course I don't know what he is eating.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Definitely a vet check and if needs be a behaviourist. If you tell us the rough area you're in it's quite possible someone could recommend one to you  

As for tests, thyroid for sure. I'm not sure what else should be tested for, hopefully either someone will come along who does know more or your vet will be able to advise.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

SJ701 said:


> Im having a total nightmare with my JRT, Ive owned my dog since a pup, he was socialised as a pup, really well behaved, got on fine with all people he met, could be a bit funny if other dogs came running up to him but would be ok if it was a slow introduction,


A lot of dogs if another dog comes immediately up to them in a boisterous over the top way, or with no manners will often be a bit funny as you put it,
and if given the time and space and a more gentle introduction they will be fine with other dogs. so that's not altogether unusual.



> when he turned 2 I decided it was time to get him castrated, I know I probably should of had it done sooner but where it didn't cause any problems, I just kept putting it off, anyway had him castrated, his behaviour started tochange slightly then for the worse, he became more aggressive to other dogs, including my elderly bitch, it wasn't very often and only if someone knocked on the door or something like that, there was always a trigger and he would stop as soon as I went to where he was.


If a dog isn't the most confident or uneasy around other dogs, neutering can in fact make some of them worse, the testosterone can make them more confident and if you take that away with neutering, they can become even more so. Its always impossible to say for sure over a forum but sometimes what appears to be outright aggression can be out of fear aggression or defensive. As you say there always seemed to be triggers and what can happen sometimes when a dog is aroused they can sometimes re-direct onto something else.


> About 4 months ago I moved back in with my parents, and about 3 months ago I had to have my bitch put to sleep due to age related issues.
> 
> My little dog is now beyond recognition, he hates going on walks, if he see's someone just walking along the street, he gets his heckles up and growls, I reassure him and just keep on walking, he does the same if he even see's another dog, he just seems scared of everything and his fear makes him aggressive.


A lot of the time dogs don't usually have a change in behaviour for no reason. Causes can be medical, discomfort, pain other certain underlying conditions, or (especially in a dog that isn't the most confident or is anxious and fearful) it can be changes in their circumstances or situation. Without a check up you are not going to know if there are any medical problems, but if he had big changes in a short space of time, the move and living in an entirely different place and then almost straight after losing your older dog who I assume he has always been with, that could have even made him worse or contributed too the behaviour. Its possible that your older dog and living with her did give him a certain amount of confidence and security too even which he has now lost.


> Now the worse part of his behaviour I have not witnessed as he only does it when I am out of the house, it started with my mother saying he had cornered her barking really nastily at her, teeth bared, snarling, growling and barking, it isn't every day, it isn't every week, it just seems out of the blue and only when I am not there, he has done this about 4 times now and the last time she had a mark on her leg, but we couldn't tell if it was his claws or teeth, up until this week it was only my mother he did this too and only when she was alone with him, never when myself or my father were in, anyway this week that's changed, he went for my father when he tried to put my dog out in the garden, then two days ago, he started barking like mad, I was upstairs and came down to him barking at my father, I was told it wasn't as bad as he gets but that was how it normally started, I walked over and put my hand on his shoulders and just told him to stop, I didn't shout, just used a stern voice, he stopped straight away. I came home from work yesterday and he had bitten my fathers leg and drawn blood and now I have just come home from work to find he has bitten my father and drawn blood again, apparently he actually latched on to my fathers leg and my father had to hit him across the nose to get him to unlock his jaws and let go, this was because someone knocked at the door and my father was just to get him out into the other room so he could open the door, the first time he bit my father it was more of a nip type bite while barking.
> 
> I really don't know what to do, I have only moved home so me and my fiancé can save up for a bigger house and when we do, we will have two children living with us, I can't risk him biting a child! Well I cant risk him biting anyone but with kids being lower to the ground, he could easily get their face and scar them for life!
> 
> Ive always owned big breeds before and they have always been so well behaved, he is my first terrier and first male dog, always been rottie and german shepherd bitches before, I just don't know what to do when he only goes full out when Im not there.


The fact that he doesn't do it and is easily calmed or seems to be when you are there, he may feel even more anxious without you in a strange place making him more reactive still. Some of it too could be how your parents actually approach the situation and how they try to move him about the house, Im not saying its acceptable for one minute, but as you are not there and cant see the full situation and exactly whats happening its difficult to say for sure what might be going on. On a forum all we can do is make possible suggestions as to what might be happening and causing it. 


> I know he needs to see a behaviourist but wouldn't they need to see him at his worse and how will I know its worked if he doesn't behave badly when Im around? I've never given up a dog or rehomed or whatever, all problems have always been worked through but where do you place your step kids safety, I cant tell them to never go near him or never go into a room alone with him, I cant be everywhere.


A behaviourist will talk to you and go over the history and then actually see him and assess him and his behaviour, he will need to work with the dog, you and your parents, and assess him in the various situations. Being there and proper assessment and looking at his behaviour and reactions at certain situations is the first part of what a Behaviourist will do. That's why as said on a forum best that anyone can come up with is possible explanations as to why he may be doing it. If you tell the behaviourist that kids are involved she/he would probably assess him around them too. The next step after background and the assessment, is usually a tailor made behaviour modification programme that every one will follow, often with further follow up sessions to monitor progress and try other things or change things slightly if needs be.



SJ701 said:


> The aggression towards people has only been within the past 2 to 2 and a half months but it is gradually getting worse, so its only been the past couple of weeks where he has left marks or actually bitten, before that it was just barking and refusing to go where he was told. He never bit or growled or barked at anyone until my other dog was put to sleep, that seemed to have been the turning point but his temperament and outlook on life started to change when he was castrated, by becoming very nervous and wary of new people or new situations.
> 
> He was castrated about 10 months ago and the aggression towards my elderly dog started about 2 months after that.
> 
> ...


First port of call would be the vets, a through physical exam including, an orthopaedic exam. Underlying causes are not always apparent with a physical exam so if you want to be completely thorough then urinalysis and blood tests to check for general health wouldn't go amiss. One other thing worth doing would be a thyroid function test, as that will affect behaviour its a lack of thyroid hormone, there are some links below how that can cause anxiety nervousness and even aggression, that though doesn't show up on the normal bloods.

If it all comes back completely clear then the next step is a behaviourist. CAPBT - COAPE Association of Pet Behaviourists and Trainers is one organisation, speak to a few in your area, ask about proven experience and success with the sort of problems you are having and pick one who has the relevant qualifications but even more important the practical.

Are your dogs seizures caused by Canine Epilepsy or Autoimmune Thyroiditis?

Behavioral changes associated with thyroid dysfunction in dogs.

Ignore the mention of seizures it can cause those too in some dogs, both articles are about behavioural too.


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## koolchick (Apr 5, 2011)

Sparkle22 said:


> Pts is what I personally would do in this situation, but I highly highly doubt the op is going to euthanise her dog just because that's what I would do so do calm yourselves.
> 
> She said the dog needs to see a behaviourist so euthanasia clearly isn't an option for her anyway!
> 
> I was just saying what I personally would do and did also mention that it might be helpful to capture the dogs behaviour on video for the behaviourist to examine and also that it would be good to muzzle the dog for her parents safety.


The OP says they think the aggression is out of fear so you would have your dog PTS for showing fear? I think it's very easy for people that don't know a dog to say they should be PTS but if anyone is in that situation if they truly loved the dog they would want to do anything to solve the problem without having a dog PTS as it is the easiest least work solution. Anyone who could just have a dog PTS just because it became aggressive for a reason you didn't know of without trying to find out the reason or correct the problem obviously thinks nothing of the dog.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

1 Go to vet and before you go write down a list of behaviours, frequency and major changes which have occurred since you got him

2 Ask for a full thyroid panel a la Jean Dodds protocol

3 Ask for a referral to a reputable behaviourist preferably one with a CCAB

4 A behaviourist will certainly NOT want to see your dog exhibiting inappropriate behaviour, that is entirely unecessary/

5 Please do not waste time fannying about with the diet unless of course you have advice from someone qualified in canine nutrition (they are very few and far between)

Good luck


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

koolchick said:


> The OP says they think the aggression is out of fear so you would have your dog PTS for showing fear? I think it's very easy for people that don't know a dog to say they should be PTS but if anyone is in that situation if they truly loved the dog they would want to do anything to solve the problem without having a dog PTS as it is the easiest least work solution. Anyone who could just have a dog PTS just because it became aggressive for a reason you didn't know of without trying to find out the reason or correct the problem obviously thinks nothing of the dog.


But most aggression is the result of fear...? 
Most dog aggressive dogs are that way because they are scared of other dogs.
Most dogs who are aggressive towards say men, are that way because they are scared of men.
Confident, secure, happy dogs are not aggressive IMO. They have no need to be.

That fact that I would have my dog pts if she bit someone must mean I don't truly love her or that I think nothing of her?
Oh please, pull the other one! 
Most people would not be comfortable keeping a dog that bites people! 
The individuals that are prepared to work with a dog that bites people are few and far between. 
Are you seriously trying to suggest that all those people who happen to think its irresponsible and dangerous to keep a dog that bites don't love their pets?!?!?! 
If so, that's very silly indeed.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Personally I think it's highly irresponsible to suggest someone put their dog to sleep having never seen it and without knowing the full circumstances of the bites.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Sparkle22 said:


> But most aggression is the result of fear...?
> Most dog aggressive dogs are that way because they are scared of other dogs.
> Most dogs who are aggressive towards say men, are that way because they are scared of men.
> Confident, secure, happy dogs are not aggressive IMO. They have no need to be.
> ...


How do you know why this dog is behaving this way? You haven't seen him.

How do you know that most people wouldn't try to find the cause of the problem?

You seem to be making a lot of sweeping statements.

Advising someone to have their much loved pet put to sleep is very radical and not something to suggest on a whim, as you seem to be doing.


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

Sweety said:


> How do you know why this dog is behaving this way? You haven't seen him.
> 
> How do you know that most people wouldn't try to find the cause of the problem?
> 
> ...


I didnt say I knew why did I?
the post I was responding to said why pts due to fear, I stated what I believe is a fact? That most aggression is caused by fear? Isn't it? Correct me if I'm wrong, I always heard that most aggression is fear based 

I think most people would put their dog to sleep if it bit someone, I think most owners on here who definately wouldn't are very much in the minority. A lot of rescues put down biters aswell.

I did not advise the op to have her dog pts, what I said was that I would pts if it was me. Is the op me? I don't think so. 
I went on to advise that she muzzle the dog to protect her parents and try and capture its aggressive outbursts on camera.

People should stop overreacting, I never once told the op to pts her dog.
I said I would, but I never told her to. 
I instead gave her advice as she said she wanted to take the dog to a behaviourist.

I also have not said anything to suggest that I know what is wrong with the dog, because I don't.
All I said was that aggression is usually caused by fear.
And that was only in response to a poster saying why would I pts my dog for fear.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Sparkle22 said:


> I didnt say I knew why did I?
> the post I was responding to said why pts due to fear, I stated what I believe is a fact? That most aggression is caused by fear? Isn't it? Correct me if I'm wrong, I always heard that most aggression is fear based
> 
> I think most people would put their dog to sleep if it bit someone, I think most owners on here who definately wouldn't are very much in the minority. A lot of rescues put down biters aswell.
> ...


I wouldn't put my dog to sleep if she bit someone. I would do everything in my power to find out why she had bitten and to try and make sure it didn't happen again.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> 1 Go to vet and before you go write down a list of behaviours, frequency and major changes which have occurred since you got him
> 
> 2 Ask for a full thyroid panel a la Jean Dodds protocol
> 
> ...


Diet plays a very large role in behavior. An animal hopped up on foods loaded with sugar and carbs will behave completely different from an animal fed a species appropriate diet.

It doesn't take a nutrition expert to understand that, it's simple common sense.

Along with thyroid, be sure to test for diabetes (and get the blood pressure checked.)


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

lorilu said:


> Diet plays a very large role in behavior. An animal hopped up on foods loaded with sugar and carbs will behave completely different from an animal fed a species appropriate diet.
> 
> It doesn't take a nutrition expert to understand that, it's simple common sense.
> 
> Along with thyroid, be sure to test for diabetes (and get the blood pressure checked.)


To begin with can you point me to the studies that prove sugar has a detrimental effect on behaviour (on any animal) please.

Also whilst some behavioural changes can occur in some dogs with carbohydrtes it is usually not hyperactivity.

I am afraid common sense has to have a basis in fact, so where are your facts............. ?


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2014)

Sarah1983 said:


> Personally I think it's highly irresponsible to suggest someone put their dog to sleep having never seen it and without knowing the full circumstances of the bites.


I agree. Even just mentioning euthanasia based on one forum post is not just irresponsible, but pretty insensitive too.

Not that I have a thing against euthanasia for behavioral reasons, Im constantly saying there are far worse fates for trouble dogs than a humane end. I just dont think its something that needs to be brought up so quickly and carelessly.

Definitely attend to safety, keep the dog separated, muzzle, manage etc., but the PTS option should only come after a thorough in-person examination by a qualified professional.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

You'll have to go on your own fact finding mission if that's your desire. 

Dogs, being carnivores (albeit not obligate), were never meant to live on foods full of sugar. Feeding an animal what they are designed by nature to eat will improve basic health and basic behavior. It is simple biology. 

I did not say that there isn't some other reason the dog in question is behaving this way. There probably is. I simply suggested that diet be looked at, because poor diet can lead to undesirable behaviors.

Even if there are other issues, if there is room for improvement in the diet, the diet improvement will always help.

In my opinion, for most behavior issues (and physical health issues, too), diet should always be one of the FIRST factors to examine, along with environment and the vet visit, of course.

Diet really does matter.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Diet does matter but there is no peer reviewed scientific evidence that proves that sugar and carbs alone, adversely affect behaviour (unless of course you know different)/

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but when people post opinions masquerading as fact please expect challenges.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> *Diet does matter but there is no peer reviewed scientific evidence that proves that sugar and carbs alone, adversely affect behaviour* (unless of course you know different)/
> 
> Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but when people post opinions masquerading as fact please expect challenges.


 While you are busy instructing other people on how to cope with the internet, perhaps you should take some time to actually read what is written.

Diet matters. Dogs were never meant to eat the things I mentioned in my original post, they are not good for animals, or any other living thing, for that matter. When you eat crap, you feel like crap. That is not exclusive to humans and it doesn't take a "scientific study" or an expert to know it.

You won't find scientific studies proving these things, because studies cost money and pet food companies, who have the money, don't want to prove that these things are bad for pets.

Instead, what happens is, someone becomes educated about their pet's nutritional needs, then makes those changes, and then sees the positive difference. 



lorilu said:


> "That dog sounds like he is in pain" was my very first thought. I'm not a dog expert by any means, but it does sound like something hurts.
> 
> Let us know how the vet visit goes, I hope you have a good vet. One that already knows your dog, and is open minded and thorough? Not prone to dismissing pet owners' concerns or reaching for a quick fix?
> 
> ...


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

lorilu said:


> While you are busy instructing other people on how to cope with the internet, perhaps you should take some time to actually read what is written.
> 
> Diet matters. Dogs were never meant to eat the things I mentioned in my original post, they are not good for animals, or any other living thing, for that matter. When you eat crap, you feel like crap. That is not exclusive to humans and it doesn't take a "scientific study" or an expert to know it.
> 
> ...


So you are confirming that what you write is a) based solely on your own uneducated opinion and b) that you do not have access to any actual facts regarding the effects of sugar or carbohydrates on the behaviour of dogs or any other species.

Thank you.

It is important for readers to be able to differentiate between uninformed personal, biased opinion and scientific fact.

There are actual studies on the effects of carbohydrates on the effect of the behaviour of dogs, perhaps it might be a good idea to educates yourself on them so that you can speak about diet from a more authorative viewpoint.

The research is out there if you care to look and a lot of it has been done by pet food companies.

Perhaps you could attend a few seminars and read a few books and papers to help you learn a bit more about canine nutrition? 

As you know so little about the subject, should you really be trying to advise others on the pros and cons of certain nutrients?


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

I know a little bit about animal nutrition, (and the horrible things that are added to pet foods) more on cats than dogs. I don't claim to be an expert but sugar, and the other ingredients I listed previously are good for neither. If you think this thread requires links and studies, feel free to provide them.

I was simply trying to help the OP, who was looking for help, by offering my thoughts on the problem.

Diet, as I have said, is important, and poor diet _can_ affect behavior. It is one more factor the OP can consider while looking for ways to help her beloved dog.


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## koolchick (Apr 5, 2011)

Sparkle22 said:


> I didnt say I knew why did I?
> the post I was responding to said why pts due to fear, I stated what I believe is a fact? That most aggression is caused by fear? Isn't it? Correct me if I'm wrong, I always heard that most aggression is fear based
> 
> I think most people would put their dog to sleep if it bit someone, I think most owners on here who definately wouldn't are very much in the minority. A lot of rescues put down biters aswell.
> ...


 If you truly love a dog having it PTS would be the last resort. As in if there was no possible way the dog could lead a happy life and be controlled. I don't call having a dog PTS for being aggressive without even trying anything else first a last resort. I very much doubt many people would have a loved dog PTS for biting someone without at least trying other options first. It sounds like you expect dogs to act like you want or give up on them.


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## SJ701 (Feb 23, 2014)

Thanks for all the replies.

Im happy to take any advice on board and have a look into it for myself, he is booked in to see the vet later this morning and it is a vet who has known him since a pup, I used to work on a horse rehabilitation centre and the vet would come down to check every horse we had in, so he spent a lot of time around my dog, the puppy classes he did was also something the vet had run so they saw him a lot as a youngster, I asked for the vet to call me back so I could talk it through with him before coming down and he was in total shock that my dogs bitten someone, I had to confirm it was the dog he knew about 5 times, that is the radical change in my boy.

I know how different types of feed can affect horses so I would imagine it will be the same in dogs, change a horses feed incorrectly and it can turn a dope on a rope into a raging bull, so whats in his feed will be something I look into, it may not be the sole cause for his behaviour problems but it isn't going to hurt to make a few changes. I'm going to talk to the vet about this also.

Surely if he was just a temperamental nasty dog, he would be that way even when I am here? He hasn't bitten or shown any aggression since I posted my first post, either when I am here or not.

If it proves he is a risk to people and all the avenues I try do not work then maybe I will be forced to have him pts... but it will be the very last resort, I'm not the type of person who would just give up on him.


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

koolchick said:


> If you truly love a dog having it PTS would be the last resort. As in if there was no possible way the dog could lead a happy life and be controlled. I don't call having a dog PTS for being aggressive without even trying anything else first a last resort. I very much doubt many people would have a loved dog PTS for biting someone without at least trying other options first. It sounds like you expect dogs to act like you want or give up on them.


I think you should explore the world of dog owners outside pet forums. 
Most owners here share your opinion, but in the real world, most people would recognise that a dog that bites people, persistently, and getting worse in the op's case is not safe. 
Most people would recognise that such a dog can never be fully trusted not to snap again.
Most people would also realise that such a dog will require careful management to keep others safe and do not want this responsibility.
They would also realise that a rescue would be unlikely to take them on, leaving them languishing and suffering for months in a kennel if the owner did decide to give them up.

I expect dogs not to attack people and don't think that's unreasonable.

Everyone wants to their dog to act like they want anyway, otherwise they wouldn't bother training them to behave in an appropriate way like not leaping all over people, pulling on the lead etc etc 

In any case, I hope the op gets on well with the behaviourist.

Congratulations for turning their thread into an entirely different debate by picking and taking one line of an otherwise helpful post completely out of context and trying to start a row over it.

To clarify, I personally, would pts the dog. 
But I am in NO way demanding the op do the same, simply offering an opinion of what I would do in the same situation and what I think the op should do instead of this route (muzzle the dog and record the behaviour).

Very sad that certain individuals have a problem with even *mentioning* certain subjects, like god forbid, putting down an unpredictable, aggressive animal that bites people and turned it into a fight club.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

Really don't think that discussing who knows what about what is helping the OP.
Lots of people will have an opinion and I think it would be good if opinions were posted as such, rather than as fact, unless there is evidence/ research.
One of the disadvantages of the written word, rather than face-to face, is that sometimes things come across badly.

On thread, I think that if you discuss options for a dog that bites people, then in the real world PTS has to be one of them.....I'm not suggesting it in this case, or saying wether it's right or not but it's there in the room.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

SJ701 said:


> Thanks for all the replies.
> 
> Im happy to take any advice on board and have a look into it for myself, he is booked in to see the vet later this morning and it is a vet who has known him since a pup, I used to work on a horse rehabilitation centre and the vet would come down to check every horse we had in, so he spent a lot of time around my dog, the puppy classes he did was also something the vet had run so they saw him a lot as a youngster, I asked for the vet to call me back so I could talk it through with him before coming down and he was in total shock that my dogs bitten someone, I had to confirm it was the dog he knew about 5 times, that is the radical change in my boy.
> 
> ...


Medical does need to be ruled out, medical reasons can and does cause changes in behaviour so that's deffinately a first port of call, you cant always just tell with a normal exam either, and not all conditions even show up on standard blood tests.

He has also had a lot of changes in location/routine etc too, dogs don't always cope with changes and anxiety/stress can cause it, especially in a dog that may not be the most confident outgoing and stress free in the first place either as they would likely cope with big changes even less. The fact that he was worse when you were not there may be a factor too even, he lost his pal, and has relocated and you may be the one main stay, in his otherwise changed situation. It depends too how you react and deal with situations with a stressed or anxious dog too.

If he hasn't done it since you posted and seems a bit more settled now together with a through medical check, and retraining he could be OK again.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2014)

SJ701 said:


> Thanks for all the replies.
> 
> Im happy to take any advice on board and have a look into it for myself, he is booked in to see the vet later this morning and it is a vet who has known him since a pup, I used to work on a horse rehabilitation centre and the vet would come down to check every horse we had in, so he spent a lot of time around my dog, the puppy classes he did was also something the vet had run so they saw him a lot as a youngster, I asked for the vet to call me back so I could talk it through with him before coming down and he was in total shock that my dogs bitten someone, I had to confirm it was the dog he knew about 5 times, that is the radical change in my boy.
> 
> ...


Definitely still get the thorough vet check including thyroid tests along with the referral to a qualified behaviorist. Check out smokeybears posts for specifics.

Its indeed hopeful that he hasnt shown aggressive behavior since you posted, but even if he was just tremendously stressed by the lifestyle change, you still need to address his reaction to stress as it may very well happen again.

Please dont be upset by PTS comments. Take things one step at a time. First step is that vet check, and please let us know how things progress  I wish you and your JRT the best. Whats his name BTW?


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## koolchick (Apr 5, 2011)

Sparkle22 said:


> I think you should explore the world of dog owners outside pet forums.
> Most owners here share your opinion, but in the real world, most people would recognise that a dog that bites people, persistently, and getting worse in the op's case is not safe.
> Most people would recognise that such a dog can never be fully trusted not to snap again.
> Most people would also realise that such a dog will require careful management to keep others safe and do not want this responsibility.
> ...


There is a difference between training a dog to behave how you want and having a dog PTS because it doesn't behave how you want. The training is the sensible most loving option.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

SJ701 said:


> Thanks for all the replies.
> 
> Im happy to take any advice on board and have a look into it for myself, he is booked in to see the vet later this morning and it is a vet who has known him since a pup, I used to work on a horse rehabilitation centre and the vet would come down to check every horse we had in, so he spent a lot of time around my dog, the puppy classes he did was also something the vet had run so they saw him a lot as a youngster, I asked for the vet to call me back so I could talk it through with him before coming down and he was in total shock that my dogs bitten someone, I had to confirm it was the dog he knew about 5 times, that is the radical change in my boy.
> 
> ...


I'd definitely get the vet to do some thorough checks after your chat, at least then you can rule problems out even if they all come out as normal.

To me it doesn't sound like he's a risk to people, just that he's stressed about all the changes going on and isn't coping well. The fact that he's not been aggressive to anyone for a while is a good sign, hopefully he's settling in to his new lifestyle a bit better. Some dogs cope with changes really well, and some can cope really badly. Let's hope the vet can help and try not to make any more changes for a while!


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2014)

sorry if this is wrong did your digs behaviour while being looked after by someone else? Could their be a miss communication between the person looking after your dog and your dog?


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## SJ701 (Feb 23, 2014)

Just got back from the vets, he has bloods taken etc so got to wait for the results of those, the vet said physically he can not see any health problems, he appears fit and healthy and no signs of any pain.

He was utterly terrified in the waiting room though, he has previously always just walked in on his lead but I had to carry him in today, put him down to speak to the nurse on reception and he was trying to climb his way up my legs until I picked him back up, not jumping but up on his back legs with his paws wrapped around my leg trying to pull himself up, then he hid his head inside my coat as soon as I picked him back up. A out of control lab came in and dragged the girl around the waiting room, he didn't growl just tried to get behind me inside my coat.

When I got called in for his appointment, he was a panting shaking mess and refused to stand up on the table, just kept laying down while leant as close to me as possible, trying to hide his head, once the vet made a bit of an effort, he decided it was safe to check the vet out but he literally ran across the table and snuggled into the vet the same way he had with me, I had to cover his face with my arm while bloods were taken but again no growling, which I was a bit worried he might go for one of us then but he didn't, but as soon as the vet had finished, he was trying to climb into my arms again (he used to hate being carried, not in a growling way, but he would just wriggle and fight to get down as soon as he was picked up before)

The vet wanted to see if he would calm down outside so we sat in the garden for a bit and he did come round more then, but he was still very aware of where I was all the time. The vet spent quite a bit of time with us to be fair and wanted to see how his behaviour changed in different situations, the vet said his behaviour is what you would expect from a dog that had been kept in a house its whole life with no interaction with the outside world, which he knows my boy has always been well socialised. 

I asked about feed and any other triggers and we had a bit of a chat about his views on that.

The vet said he thinks caging him or restricting him when he is fearful could make the problems worse but suggested keeping a collar and lead on him at all times, so if he does start, he can be moved easier, without having to physically touch him and suggested some local behaviourists who he knew people had good results with.

The vet did suggest depression after losing my old girl and said that could be something to look at if the behaviourist doesn't have any luck.

His name is Bryn.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2014)

SJ701 said:


> Just got back from the vets, he has bloods taken etc so got to wait for the results of those, the vet said physically he can not see any health problems, he appears fit and healthy and no signs of any pain.
> 
> He was utterly terrified in the waiting room though, he has previously always just walked in on his lead but I had to carry him in today, put him down to speak to the nurse on reception and he was trying to climb his way up my legs until I picked him back up, not jumping but up on his back legs with his paws wrapped around my leg trying to pull himself up, then he hid his head inside my coat as soon as I picked him back up. A out of control lab came in and dragged the girl around the waiting room, he didn't growl just tried to get behind me inside my coat.
> 
> ...


Aw... poor Bryn, he does sound terribly upset doesnt he?
Some dogs handle upheaval and change better than others, just like some humans do. 
We lost our super stable male dog last summer and it did affect both remaining dogs and they went through a period of adjustment.

It may be that he just needs time to adjust. But I would still have a thorough consult with a behaviorist as there are also things you can do to help him adjust sooner rather than later, and also help him not get so overwhelmed in periods of change.

Best wishes to you and Bryn, thank you for the update, and please continue to keep us posted. I know many of us are wishing you both well


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

SJ701 said:


> Just got back from the vets, he has bloods taken etc so got to wait for the results of those, the vet said physically he can not see any health problems, he appears fit and healthy and no signs of any pain.
> 
> He was utterly terrified in the waiting room though, he has previously always just walked in on his lead but I had to carry him in today, put him down to speak to the nurse on reception and he was trying to climb his way up my legs until I picked him back up, not jumping but up on his back legs with his paws wrapped around my leg trying to pull himself up, then he hid his head inside my coat as soon as I picked him back up. A out of control lab came in and dragged the girl around the waiting room, he didn't growl just tried to get behind me inside my coat.
> 
> ...


Poor Bryn didn't sound happy at the vets. So sad when you see a dog that used to be so full of life so scared like that 

Your vet sounds good so lets hope that they can set you on the right track if he does have something going on with him.

Hopefully he'll perk up when he settles a bit, can't remember if anyone has suggested one of those calming plug-ins/collars like adaptil to help him be a bit more settled in the house while you're not there?

A behaviourist should be able to give you an idea of how best to get him to cope better with changes now and in the future, as there will always be times of upheaval and change even if you don't want it.

Let us know how it all goes with the behaviourist and if the vets find anything, plus we're still expecting photos of Bryn


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## SJ701 (Feb 23, 2014)

Well its been 5 days since my last post and he had one more episode 4 days ago, triggered by the post man.

A behaviourist came to see us three days ago and make several suggestions, he said on a whole my dog appears a well mannered dog and does not feel his aggression is due to being vicious but down to fear or nervousness as he does show alots of signs of nervousness and suggested a natural calmer (along with training methods) so I went out and bought a small bottle of Pet Remedy, sprayed it on his bed and put some on my hand and rubbed under his chin and on the top of his head.

The postman has always been a trigger, not always the biting but lots of running around and barking like mad, the past two days since using the pet remedy he hasn't even got out of his bed when the postman has been, he used to pace around a lot in general, trotting from room to room, taking ages to settle, the pacing has stopped. I use the spray twice a day in his bed and on him, once in the morning and once in the evening and again before I take him out for a walk if its in the middle of the day. Yesterday he walked passed three dogs all straining to get to him and he would normally get his heckles up and growl but he just moved to the other side of me, so I was between the dogs and him and carried on walking, he did look around a few times to make sure the dogs weren't following him. 

I know its only been two days but I can really see a change in him already, I still need to watch for any aggression and am still waiting for the vets to call me with the results of his tests but so far so good.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

SJ701 said:


> Well its been 5 days since my last post and he had one more episode 4 days ago, triggered by the post man.
> 
> A behaviourist came to see us three days ago and make several suggestions, he said on a whole my dog appears a well mannered dog and does not feel his aggression is due to being vicious but down to fear or nervousness as he does show alots of signs of nervousness and suggested a natural calmer (along with training methods) so I went out and bought a small bottle of Pet Remedy, sprayed it on his bed and put some on my hand and rubbed under his chin and on the top of his head.
> 
> ...


Glad the behaviourist and the pet remedy seems to have helped and he seems to be much calmer and happier.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Thats good news, I'm so pleased you can see some progress.

Regarding the post man being a trigger have you thought about sealing up your letter box and having one of those locked boxes instead? We changed to one of those a few years ago as the dogs we had then used to react to the letter box and all charge to the door and all hell would break loose. Now we don't even know when the postie has been.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

SJ701 said:


> Well its been 5 days since my last post and he had one more episode 4 days ago, triggered by the post man.
> 
> A behaviourist came to see us three days ago and make several suggestions, he said on a whole my dog appears a well mannered dog and does not feel his aggression is due to being vicious but down to fear or nervousness as he does show alots of signs of nervousness and suggested a natural calmer (along with training methods) so I went out and bought a small bottle of Pet Remedy, sprayed it on his bed and put some on my hand and rubbed under his chin and on the top of his head.
> 
> ...


Hope things continue to improve, so happy to hear he's already making some progress, he sounds a sensitive little soul who finds change distressing xx


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2014)

SJ701 said:


> Well its been 5 days since my last post and he had one more episode 4 days ago, triggered by the post man.
> 
> A behaviourist came to see us three days ago and make several suggestions, he said on a whole my dog appears a well mannered dog and does not feel his aggression is due to being vicious but down to fear or nervousness as he does show alots of signs of nervousness and suggested a natural calmer (along with training methods) so I went out and bought a small bottle of Pet Remedy, sprayed it on his bed and put some on my hand and rubbed under his chin and on the top of his head.
> 
> ...


This is great news, so good to hear


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

SJ701 said:


> Well its been 5 days since my last post and he had one more episode 4 days ago, triggered by the post man.
> 
> A behaviourist came to see us three days ago and make several suggestions, he said on a whole my dog appears a well mannered dog and does not feel his aggression is due to being vicious but down to fear or nervousness as he does show alots of signs of nervousness and suggested a natural calmer (along with training methods) so I went out and bought a small bottle of Pet Remedy, sprayed it on his bed and put some on my hand and rubbed under his chin and on the top of his head.
> 
> ...


That's really great news!

Great that the behaviourist doesn't think he's an aggressive dog (as we all thought too) and has given you some suggestions. Hopefully he'll now settle down a bit and return to his old self


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

That's such good news. Really hope things start to improve for you now.


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## coco14 (May 20, 2014)

I'm sure this is an upsetting situation,
No one would want to consider pts lightly a problem that was present mildly that has in increased could be medical or increased by stress,a vet examination is always first call,I would think losing another dog in the household and moving home and living with other people are two big stress factors,
The biting could be out of fear,
At one time I had two bitches both small cross breeds,my smaller cross collie/terrier type was dominant they got on well generally but would put the other dog in her place sometimes by showing teeth ect and the other would cower.
They do have a kind of pecking order and need to know their position in the household
My dog is now 14 and recently shown dislike to the odd caller but not bitten them as she gets a bit confused
Newbie to to forum too
Notts uk


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