# Sticky  Something for ALL new small animal owners to consider.



## Akai-Chan

Before you go out to a pet shop to buy your animal, take 5 minutes to read this link

Why not use pet shops?

It is also something that reptile keepers should consider I think if they don't breed their own food. Do you really know where your snakes food comes from?

Is there any chance this could be made a sticky (If it is popular enouigh) to let new owners know?

Peace
Akai-Chan


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## CarolineH

Execllent link thanks. What a lot do not realise is that a lot of the small animals in our larger pet shops have been imported from breeders like that in other countries where there are literally no animal welfare standards and by purchasing them, owners are encouraging the continuing trade.


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## Akai-Chan

CarolineH said:


> Execllent link thanks. What a lot do not realise is that a lot of the small animals in our larger pet shops have been imported from breeders like that in other countries where there are literally no animal welfare standards and by purchasing them, owners are encouraging the continuing trade.


Well this sort of practice isn't illegal, even in the UK! Not many people realise that the majority of animals bred at rodent farms get euthanised for snake food either. I know the subject of culling for snake food is a sore point in the rodents section (understandably) but this is just the worst 

I just want to spread the word to as many people as possible, and seeing as a lot of people come here before they get a pet it could be good to be made a sticky.

Peace
Akai-Chan


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## srhdufe

I think it should be made a sticky too


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## ashleighhhhh

Yes it should be made a sticky! 
I would go to a specific breeder, but there are none around me! 
But I did venture across one of the 2 petshops in my town (very small town!!) and one is a breeder! and they make sure you have everything ready before allowing you to adopt and they tell you different treats and toys that are good for them, and they also rescue animals from people who don't want them anymore.. So if they close down I'd have to go to a normal petshop or go animalless


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## Akai-Chan

Yayyyyy my threads been stickied/title corrected!

Thankyou LadyW! You're a star!

Peace
Akai-Chan


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## srhdufe

Yay! you have a sticky


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## ashleighhhhh

Yay!


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## Ladywiccana

Akai-Chan said:


> Yayyyyy my threads been stickied/title corrected!
> 
> Thankyou LadyW! You're a star!
> 
> Peace
> Akai-Chan


*lol your welcome, we aim to please............:smilewinkgrin:*


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## Marcia

Great thread 

I've heard that some of those pics (i've seen them before somewhere) are rodent farms for [email protected]


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## Akai-Chan

Marcia said:


> Great thread
> 
> I've heard that some of those pics (i've seen them before somewhere) are rodent farms for [email protected]


They probably provide for sevaral different chains ([email protected], petscorner, probably some smaller stores) Imagine how many rodents those farms turn out per week, probably more than enough to supply for most of the petshops in the UK >_<

Peace
Akai-Chan


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## Marcia

It's just a money making scheme. They don't care about the animals in their care


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## Akai-Chan

I know  as a breeder this boils my blood. I hate hearing about BYB's of ANY animal and animal farms. 

Peace
Akai-Chan


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## CarolineH

Akai-Chan said:


> They probably provide for sevaral different chains ([email protected], petscorner, probably some smaller stores) Imagine how many rodents those farms turn out per week, probably more than enough to supply for most of the petshops in the UK >_<


And how many will die in the process. Looks like a concentration camp for rodents.


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## Akai-Chan

CarolineH said:


> And how many will die in the process. Looks like a concentration camp for rodents.


You;ve hit the nail right on the head there.

Is there any way we can start some sort of petition to shut down rodent farms and/or make them ilegal?

Peace
Akai-Chan


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## CarolineH

Akai-Chan said:


> You;ve hit the nail right on the head there.
> 
> Is there any way we can start some sort of petition to shut down rodent farms and/or make them ilegal?
> 
> Peace
> Akai-Chan


I don't know if that would be possible as most of these 'farms' are in Eastern Europe so I have been told. If there was a concerted education campaign to persuade people not to buy animals from those larger pet stores that might make an impact? But thing is, people want to buy small pets from somewhere and it is not easy to find breeders. The pet shops sell small animals usually at a loss because they can usually sell the whole set up, food, toys etc to the same customer when they buy one and that is where their profit lies.


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## Akai-Chan

CarolineH said:


> I don't know if that would be possible as most of these 'farms' are in Eastern Europe so I have been told. If there was a concerted education campaign to persuade people not to buy animals from those larger pet stores that might make an impact? But thing is, people want to buy small pets from somewhere and it is not easy to find breeders. The pet shops sell small animals usually at a loss because they can usually sell the whole set up, food, toys etc to the same customer when they buy one and that is where their profit lies.


I'm pretty sure there's quite a few rodent farms in the UK. If those could be shut down and we start educating people about where pet shop animals come from it would be a massive step towards people not buying from pet shops altogether which would be a huge blow for rodent farms in other parts of the world.

It isn;t that hard to find breeders, people just don;t really know much about breeders or don;t know where to start looking. I think that people assume that pet shop animals will be healthy.

I know that the majority of the profit lies in the equipment but they still do make some profit from the animals, but not much.

Peace
Akai-Chan


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## zany_toon

I will admit to getting 4 of my mice from a pet shop. They were oorly but are now very healthy - Scrambled Egg was so ill I could see all the bones in his tail. It's a hard decision to make - do you buy one animal to give it a better life knowing that your money funds more ending up in the same situation or do you walk away and know that some one will feed it to a snake? I'm too soft to walk away from an animal that I can help and I know in the scheme of things that it was the wrong decision but i don't regret it. My pet shop mice cost me more than any of my others and i wouldn't have even been near the pet shop if the breeder I had been in touch with hadn't just disappeared.


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## Guest

Oh dear...  (Thanks for sharing this)
I was going to get my gerbils from Pets at Home - should I or not?


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## Akai-Chan

IrishSetter said:


> Oh dear...  (Thanks for sharing this)
> I was going to get my gerbils from Pets at Home - should I or not?


See if you can find a breeder near you would be my suggestion  whereabouts are you?

Peace
Akai-Chan


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## Nicky09

I got Thea from a petshop as were the 6 or so hammies I had as a kid all were fine one lived to 3 years old. But with Thea it was more I'd been thinking about getting one for a while and she was too cute. I had no idea there were other places to get them outside of petshops before this forum


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## Tammy0407

I agree that this is wrong and that it shouldnt happen, but i also think that trying to get these places shut down is a bit of a dream although yes it would be great!
However if you are going to start a petition i think it would be better to take baby steps and maybe petition for laws on better living conditions! Its difficult and people do need to be educated. I had no idea about [email protected] getting rats that came from places like this and i dont think they know what kind of conditions the rats come from (im saying this after a convo i had with an employee of [email protected]). I also have to say that i dont think all of these farms are going to be this awful and that this is an extreme. I do think that this is wrong and that the animals need better living conditions.


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## Tammy0407

I also think that if people shut down UK based farms then shops are going to start importing rats from other countries! Have people thought what that would do to the rats! Bringing my rats home was stressful enough for them let alone transporting them across countries, rats would die, breed and become even more unhealthy! I think it would be a much better option to campaign for laws for better treament etc as you would see more and better results!


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## Akai-Chan

Better living conditions are a good start but that still doesn't improve the genetic health of the animals, just their quality of life. What would be ideal is if the shops supplied by rodent farms were not allowed to sell animals anymore, unless they were being supplied by a licensed small breeder or something? I know that shutting down pet farms in the UK wouldn't solve all issues but it would certainly be a step.

The main way to go about it in my mind is to encourage people to buy from responsible, ethical breeders. Not to buy animals from pet shops and to, if possible, buy equipment from pet shops that do not sell animals atall. I breed rats and I offer a delivery service for a small fee if someone wants an animal off me but cannot reach me because of distance. I encourage potential buyers to come in and look at my rats, handle them, look at vet health certificates, handle the babies and ask me any questions atall. Not something you bcan do in a pet shop really because the plebs there will tell you anything just to make a quick sale.

Peace
Akai-Chan


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## Tammy0407

Akai - Chan i will be coming to you next time i get some rats! after seeing those pictures really opened my eyes! HOw much do you sell your rats for if you dont mind me asking


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## Akai-Chan

Tammy0407 said:


> Akai - Chan i will be coming to you next time i get some rats! after seeing those pictures really opened my eyes! HOw much do you sell your rats for if you dont mind me asking


Mine are £10 each and they come with a weeks supply of food if you need to switch over and my support for all of their lifetime if you have any questions 

Peace
Akai-Chan


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## waterlilyold

That is awful the way those poor rattys are kept :cursing:
If I was able to get my rattys off you I would, but I'm too far 
Three of my rats came from a rat rescue but the other six were from a pet shop  I don't know if the pet shops here get there rats from a hellish hole like that or not, but I hope not.


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## xshellx

very useful. thanks


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## Lady3131

Whilst I love my Rambo... I will never use pet shops again to buy a pet from. He came to us with wet tail and although I had had some experience with hamsters I was very much out of my depth. Luckily I work from home and after two weeks of intensive treatment and lots of love he managed to pull through but it was a lesson well learnt..


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## u-look-like-a-hamster

I feel sick.

this must stop


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## laurvystein

This is definitely something that all pet owners and future pet owners should see!


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## smudgiesmummy

although i do agree with whats been said.... its also putting a bad name on the local family run petshops with years of experience


i can asure you that the rats that the place where i worked were bought from local breeders and were not kept in small plastic tanks

the staff there know what they are doing and on occasions where they dont know the answers they always checked with the boss

all the animals in the shop are in the right legally sizes cages and in some cases bigger than required

all animals are treated like family until there are sold are are never sold without telling new owners any informaton , cages ect ect... and they do try to get them to buy books on the animals


all animals were also given treats of apples, carrots ect depending on the animal and were handled every single day while their homes were being cleaned

names and addresses are always taken and their is a age restriction on buying animals


im not saying every pet shop is safe but please remember there is some responsible ones out there

i have heard that some petshops sell live animals (hamsters, rabbits and rats) for reptile food but be asured this one certainly doesnt


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## webzdebs

excellent article!


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## Berrywoods

ive been pushing that article around for some time now, i did as a rattery and i still do as a petshop, the conditions most animals are bred for shops is discusting, after seeing one for my self it really brought it to light with me, and pushed me to do what i do now, i still dont agree with animals being sold in petshops but id rather be the petshop who has complete control over its animal from baby to leaving to a new home, than just watching from a sideline being able to do nothing. I do recomend people goto breeders where possible, i know im not the only shop that breeds its own animals and providing they know what they are doing, these are the best places to buy them, dont support these places by spending money on them. Im glad that articles on more and more sites now days


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## smudgiesmummy

Berrywoods said:


> ive been pushing that article around for some time now, i did as a rattery and i still do as a petshop, the conditions most animals are bred for shops is discusting, after seeing one for my self it really brought it to light with me, and pushed me to do what i do now, i still dont agree with animals being sold in petshops but id rather be the petshop who has complete control over its animal from baby to leaving to a new home, than just watching from a sideline being able to do nothing. I do recomend people goto breeders where possible, i know im not the only shop that breeds its own animals and providing they know what they are doing, these are the best places to buy them, dont support these places by spending money on them. Im glad that articles on more and more sites now days


please dont forget the good shops though


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## Berrywoods

smudge2009 said:


> please dont forget the good shops though


i like to think im one of them, and i know there are plenty more,


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## charmedlassie88

Oh god, I feel so bad now. Its also pretty obvious to me that it would be like this, I just never thought about it. 

I bought daisy from Acorn petcentre...just thinking that her mum is in one of those tanks or worse just makes me want to cry.


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## Berrywoods

Scares me how this is happening all over the world,

i got this email this morning, from a european company

Hello.

We are czech company, who deal with breeding mice, hamsters, rats, worm, cricket,rabbits.birts, grasshoppers, snakes, many tipes of insect and etc. We are also occupy by sale and distribution to warehouse in whole europe ( Germany, Belgium, Holland, France, Austria, Switzerland). We are looking for new clients and we want only stabil and long-term clients. We have to offer animals with high quality. The animals are alive or frozen.Our shipping is free. We have stabile veterinary and hygienic control. Our company has whole licence for distibution and sales in whole Europe. So I would like offer you our products, because I think we have very good prices.

Please let me know if you are intereresting or not.
Thank you for your respond and have a nice day Marketing manager Sabina Kaparová

Insect
8 ADULT locusta 0.11 euro
7 sub-adult locusta 0.10
8 locusta dozen 1.75
7 locusta dozen 1.75
Buffalo 6.5
Tenebrio molitor 5.5
Zophobas morio 11.80
schaben 0.20

pet
Goldhamster 0.80 eur
russe blue 0.75
russe noirs 0.75
russe blanc 0.75
russe orange 1
russe black 1
russe beige 1
Roborowski 0.80
rabbits mix 8 mix
quinea Pick 5 Mix quinea very nice variation gerbilie 2 degu 6 mice color,0,75

ratten
baby ratten 0,28 eur frozen
ratten 10 days 0,40 frozen
ratten 30-50 gr 0,50 frozen /live
raten 80-100 gr 0,70 frozen/live
ratten 100-120 gr0,85 frozen/live

mice
baby mice 2 days 0,10 eur frozen
baby mice 5 days 0,12 frozen
mice 6 grams 0,16 frozen
mice 8-12 gr 0,20 frozen/live
mice 12-17 gr 0,25 frozen/live
mice 18-22 gr 0,30 frozen/ live
mice big 30-50gr 0,40 frozen

Prices chinchilla
"white 44 eur
black 40 eur
beige 40 eur
standard 26 eur


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## LauM

Not all pet shops are like that though, the good ones should be taken into consideration as well..


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## Saria

I think it's unfair for you to say that you shouldn't buy animals from pet shops as not all of them buy from Rodent farms.
I work in a small pet shop where all of the animals for sale are either bred by myself, the manager of the store or local breeders.
The shop is very strict with the requirements for animals, all of the cages are the correct sizes and comply with RSPCA guidelines for keeping animals, For example, there are 5 baby Syrian hamsters for sale, each in their own cage with plenty of room to run about and plenty of bedding and toys, compared to bigger shops such as [email protected] that often keeps 3 or 4 syrians in one container.
The manager of the store ensures that animals are sold in pairs if they need to be and that the customer knows exactly how to look after their new pet.


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## LisaLQ

Our shop says they use local breeders too, but it's rubbish as I've seen them order them from well known rodent farms. They used to use a local breeder. A local breeder who had no qualms about giving 2-3 week old kittens to the pet shop because she'd ran out of food and needed some. 

Even so, very few (none that I know of) self respecting breeders would sell their rats via a pet shop (as they need to know where their rats go so that they can keep in touch for the rest of the animal's life), so 9 times out of 10 (that's being generous, as IMO it's 10 times), rats in pet shops are bred by farms or irresponsible breeders.


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## Berrywoods

Ill only use local breeders for rabbits and g'pigs, even then the local breeders are friends, and i know wouldnt trust anyone else. 

Majority of people who own my rats come to my rat club every thursday, many others are on my forum or facebook, theres maybe 5 that i dont have details but who come in either with their rats occasionally or come in for toys and food. I Cant say theres any that i have not seen atleast once since the day they bought them. 

The process for me isnt different from any other breeder. Only my first litter was ever ready without reservations, every litter since has always been reserved before 6 weeks old. The litter i have at the moment is 5 days old, and 9 out of the 13 babies have been reserved. 2 of these people already own my rats, 3 are going to someone whos been waiting for rats from me since we opened but wasnt prepared until now.

Theres some people you'll never convince but im glad 80% of people agree with what i do. The reputation we have got since we opened has been great. 

Cast 99% of petshops under that boat, many shouldnt be open, not by the horror stories i have heard anyway but there is 1% of them out there, that are truely out to try and make a difference, and not spend time on forums sulking about what they will never do anything to change...

PS if you'd like a list of some of my customers for feedback on my rats you need only ask, i know they would be more than happy for me to share their details.


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## Lu85

Bloody hell I can't believe what i've just seen I brought both my hamsters from [email protected] and i'm shocked that my two little babies will have started life like that. My zippy (the first one i brought from there) was the only one in the cage I don't think anyone wanted him cuz he was all fluffy he is my cats best mate and I am so upset to think that [email protected] could buy off these people


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## dramagirl83

Tammy0407 said:


> I agree that this is wrong and that it shouldnt happen, but i also think that trying to get these places shut down is a bit of a dream although yes it would be great!
> However if you are going to start a petition i think it would be better to take baby steps and maybe petition for laws on better living conditions! Its difficult and people do need to be educated. I had no idea about [email protected] getting rats that came from places like this and i dont think they know what kind of conditions the rats come from (im saying this after a convo i had with an employee of [email protected]). I also have to say that i dont think all of these farms are going to be this awful and that this is an extreme. I do think that this is wrong and that the animals need better living conditions.


Try to get the issue on Opera she had a lot to do with getting the word out on puppy mills too.


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## RatLady

This is a wierd one for me becuase i thought buying form petshops were bad until i contacted mine and asked them about it a few months ago now..

He gave me the number of his breeder and i arranged to see his workings, thinking i was going to be horrified, when the truth was that he only gives his rats to petshops when he has no buyers for his well bred ratties, i went the next day when he dropped off a new lot of kits to the shop and picked up a little cream and champagne husky with pink eyes , glad to say he is the best most helthiest frendliest rat i have ever had, hes adorable and called gordon :L But i would still always make sure before you uy from there if you HAVE TO. i still goto breeders as often as i can or i do a thurough check  so its not all bad, becuase in the end, pet shops are there to help pet owners.. or am i jst lucky to have a great petshop on my street ? xx


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## Kingbuxton13

My 2 guys were both bought from pets at home because it was near IMPOSSIBLE to get a local breeder firstly, and secondly one that wasnt overly suspicious. Im on the lookout again for another rattie, and im finding it impossible. Its no wonder.

To confirm, are Pets @ Home really bad offenders for this type of practise?


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## Guest

Kingbuxton13 said:


> My 2 guys were both bought from pets at home because it was near IMPOSSIBLE to get a local breeder firstly, and secondly one that wasnt overly suspicious. Im on the lookout again for another rattie, and im finding it impossible. Its no wonder.
> 
> To confirm, are Pets @ Home really bad offenders for this type of practise?


They are one of the worst offenders 
Have you looked at any local rescues? Many rescues rehome nationally so that is also something you can look into


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## simplysardonic

Kingbuxton13 said:


> My 2 guys were both bought from pets at home because it was near IMPOSSIBLE to get a local breeder firstly, *and secondly one that wasnt overly suspicious*. Im on the lookout again for another rattie, and im finding it impossible. Its no wonder.
> 
> To confirm, are Pets @ Home really bad offenders for this type of practise?


Not sure what you mean by this, I take it you mean the breeder asking you questions? A good breeder will want to know who they are entrusting their babies to so would ask questions. It's not being 'suspicious', it's being ethical & if you've nothing to hide then it shouldn't be a problem


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## Kingbuxton13

Why presume I had somethin to hide. I couldn't, An still can't find a local breeder where I don't have to drive miles which I'm unable to do. A casual buyer would rather go pets at home for easy sake. I'm not saying me here


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## Olive011394

Wow that makes me really rethink pet shops! That makes me very upset tower those poor rats and know that a large percent of them suffered and died. ):


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## andcatmakes4

I live close to a large pet store (mentioning no names :001_rolleyes. I have bought pets from there in the past and they never survive for long . Even after the best care I could give them. So when I decided to get another Hamster.. I did resarch and found a small local shop. The lady here breeds all her 'stock' in her own home. She cares for them all. Knows each ones actual birth date. When I took Brandy home she even said " Bye little mate be good" when we left. He survived 4 and a half years and I will miss him forever. So when we got our current one it was a no-brainer where to go. x:biggrin: I will never be using the big stores again.


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## DumboRatLove

you would have thought that [email protected] would be better..... but at least it is a sticky! i am so glad i stopped buying from pet stores


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## rattiedee

Great link


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## DwarfHam

very good link!
The best way to get small animal is to get it from a breeder


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## victoria9292

My two girls were going to be Snake Food 

but they got a snuggy cage and a owner instead....ME


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## Welshalterego

We bought our current rats from a pet store, they are terrified, they've been kept in an enclosure that is too small, too bright and their only option will have been to hide, we are having trouble getting them used to us and one has escaped, it's so sad to see what a pet shop can do to animals.


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## orchardfarm

How horrible I had rats as a child I didn't know places like that existed shows how uniformed I was great thread for bringing this to peoples attention. I now keep degu's. I hope farms like this don't exist for them too!


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## Yasmin

The only time I'll get animals from a pet store is if they're in an adoption section, because I know far too many situations were people go in and adopt them just to feed to snakes, plus no parents will ever get older animals for their children (which is the rubbishest thing). I never evere evervevrvevrvevrrrrr buy them from pet stores because I can't bare to think of the conditions those animals are kept in D;


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## Linda Orr

My granddaughter got her 2 rats at pets at home im a bit worried now as I know she would be devastated if any thing happens to them. We just assumed they got there pets locally never occurred they came from a rodent farm.


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## SusieRainbow

Linda Orr said:


> My granddaughter got her 2 rats at pets at home im a bit worried now as I know she would be devastated if any thing happens to them. We just assumed they got there pets locally never occurred they came from a rodent farm.


This thread is 7 years old and no longer activ, you might want to start a new one if you're concerned.


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