# G3 dog training...



## Canarie (Sep 4, 2013)

Hi,
Has anybody used this company for dog training? They are based in Cambridge.....

thankyou

Gill


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Nope. Don't lke the look of their website at all either.


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## princeno5 (Jun 5, 2010)

the spaniel has a prong collar on,they talk about ecollars,no thanks,rather have my 2 naughty.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

They 'train' (if you can call it that) using e-collars.

Avoid with a barge pole.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Noooooo please do not. They use prong collars and shocks. I didn't realise this and left a 'lesson' before they could do any damage. They could have put Molly back months.

Two I'd recommend in Cambridge are

Puppy and Dog Training in Cambridge and Colchester
Cambridge Dogs

Both use positive training techniques.


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## staffgirl (May 1, 2013)

How did you get on with the other trainers you contacted in the Stortford area? No luck? If you don't want to use aversives to train, you should avoid G3. I would recommend Red Dog Training, Denise Armstrong, who is an IMDT trained trainer. She is based in Stortford.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Alan Cole KCAI (CDA) 01223 313841 [email protected] Cambridge CB4


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

So we're under no doubt, this is from G3's Facebook page.

oh and Wuff who I recommended above, have been a massive help for us.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Further evidence of the 'training techniques' employed by these idiots. Please do not use them.


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## zedder (Aug 21, 2013)

Lol ecollar surely all that's going to do is make your dog hate your guts no thanks rather do training the old fashioned way with treats and a bit of patience.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

zedder said:


> Lol ecollar surely all that's going to do is make your dog hate your guts no thanks rather do training the old fashioned way with treats and a bit of patience.


Unfortunately I'm not sure everyone agrees which is so sad, I hope the OP will take note and make the right call for her dog.


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## Simon Harris (Nov 15, 2016)

I think this is very unfair. One of my friends used an ecollar with her Labrador that would run off chasing other dogs and jumping on people in the park. It was so bad that my friend was literally in tears after every walk. She tried several trainers with all sorts of treats, spending hundreds on residential training, behaviourists and so on.. and only until she found a trainer that recommended an ecollar, she can now have her dog off the lead and she hardly even uses it. It really has transformed her life and her dog gets to run off lead which is what her dog really needs! 

I don't really want to use it, for similar reasons above, but I'm definitely considering it now!


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2016)

Simon Harris said:


> I don't really want to use it, for similar reasons above, but I'm definitely considering it now!


What issues are you having that you're considering an ecollar?


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## Simon Harris (Nov 15, 2016)

Jess runs after dogs (and cats!), would make a run to get out and escape out the front door as shes figured out where the neighbourhood cats live on our street. I've lost her a few times so I only walk her on a retractable lead or long line. 

Have you used them?


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2016)

I have not used an ecollar on any of my dogs, but I am familiar with them.

I think some people think they are some sort of magic trick that will make their dog who does not recall suddenly learn how to listen, and they just don't work that way.

If your dog runs off, an ecollar will not teach her how to run back to you, you still have to teach her to do that. If your dog chases cats, and ecollar will not teach her to stop having predatory urges. In fact using punishment on instinctual drives is a great way to confuse a dog and lose any chance of using those drives in your favor.

Have you done any training with a qualified trainer?
@smokeybear has a great list of seminars and workshops for recall that might be worth looking in to.


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## Simon Harris (Nov 15, 2016)

Thank you! We did some local classes and a few one to ones at home - I know there is still a lot for me to learn, and she knows her name and she's really good when there are no dogs around and better for some reason in new places where she doesn't know so well. 

My friend did a course over a month or so where the trainer did lessons on Ecollar at her home. I just feel sorry for Jess that she can't be off the lead with my friend as we go for walks together once a week. 

When we go there she could catch a scent or something and run back to the houses in search for cats. Seeing my friend's dog off lead now just seems like a glimmer of hope.... 

I just don't want to risk losing her again.


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2016)

Simon Harris said:


> Thank you! We did some local classes and a few one to ones at home - I know there is still a lot for me to learn, and she knows her name and she's really good when there are no dogs around and better for some reason in new places where she doesn't know so well.
> 
> My friend did a course over a month or so where the trainer did lessons on Ecollar at her home. I just feel sorry for Jess that she can't be off the lead with my friend as we go for walks together once a week.
> 
> ...


How old is your dog?

There are many effective ways you can improve your dog's recall that don't involve using an ecollar. 
In the meantime, there is nothing wrong with keeping her on a long line, attached to a body harness, not a collar. 
Alternately there are secure fields you can rent for a day or a few hours.


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2016)

Simon Harris said:


> I think this is very unfair. One of my friends used an ecollar with her Labrador that would run off chasing other dogs and jumping on people in the park. It was so bad that my friend was literally in tears after every walk. She tried several trainers with all sorts of treats, spending hundreds on residential training, behaviourists and so on.. and only until she found a trainer that recommended an ecollar, she can now have her dog off the lead and she hardly even uses it. It really has transformed her life and her dog gets to run off lead which is what her dog really needs!
> 
> I don't really want to use it, for similar reasons above, but I'm definitely considering it now!


Then your friend is cruel to dogs and needs to put an E collar on herself. They hurt.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Simon Harris said:


> I think this is very unfair. One of my friends used an ecollar with her Labrador that would run off chasing other dogs and jumping on people in the park. It was so bad that my friend was literally in tears after every walk. She tried several trainers with all sorts of treats, spending hundreds on residential training, behaviourists and so on.. and only until she found a trainer that recommended an ecollar, she can now have her dog off the lead and she hardly even uses it. It really has transformed her life and her dog gets to run off lead which is what her dog really needs!
> 
> I don't really want to use it, for similar reasons above, but I'm definitely considering it now!


Given that Labradors are one of my most trainable breeds of dog, and what you are describing is perfectly normal behaviour for this breed, either your friend was using terrible trainers or they were simply not putting the effort it in to manage/train the dog. To use an e-collar for this reason is actually insulting to the intelligence of this breed. But clearly your friend was looking for a quick fix.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Considering that there are around 40k labradors registered with the Kennel Club every year and they have been the most popular breed in the UK for decades; are used extensively in the police, customs and excise, military for sniffing; and probably the number one breed used as assistance dogs and medical detection dogs it beggars belief that such a biddable breed would ever need to wear an electric collar.

Either the trainers were ineffective (and there are plenty of those about) or the owners are not following instructions.

*Seminars*

3 - 6 June John Rogerson Ultimate Recall Course Nottingham

http://inlinedogtraining.co.uk/course details-2.html

10 - 11 June John Rogerson Ultimate Recall Course Kent

http://www.familydogservices.co.uk/

*Books*

Teach your Dog to Come when Called

By Katie Buvala

Line Training for Dogs
By Monika Gutman

Total Recall
By Pippa Mattinson

Teach your Dog to Come When Called
By Erica Peachey

Training your Dog to Come When Called
By John Rogerson

The Dog Vinci Code

By John Rogerson

Stop! How to control predatory Chasing in Dogs
by David Ryan

Chase! Managing Your Dog's Predatory Instincts 
By Clarissa Von Reinhardt

*DVDs*

Line Training for Dogs
By Monika Gutman

Really Reliable Recall 
By Leslie Nelson

Training the Recall
By Michael Ellis

Training the Whistle Recall

By Pamela Dennison

Your clever dog: Getting your dog to come when called 
By Sarah Whitehead

Does your dog whizz back to you as soon as you call his name?

Can you call him to you even when there are other dogs or distractions? Teaching your dog to come to you when you call is the cornerstone of training and the gateway to allowing him more freedom in the park.

If your dog has selective deafness, ignores you in the garden or the park, or would rather play with other dogs than come when you call, this specially designed training session is for you.

Ideal for starting out with puppies or rehomed dogs, and also for dogs that ignore you or are slow to come when called, despite previous training.

Including:
• How to know what's rewarding for your dog and what's not
• Five times when you shouldn't call your dog!
• Using your voice to call versus using a whistle
• What to do if you call and your dog doesn't come to you
The pack contains: A clicker, long line (worth £10), training manual, instructional DVD: 55 mins approx running time including Bonus trick, Bonus Training Session, Intro to Clicker Training, Q & A with Sarah

http://www.dogtrain.co.uk/shop/product_info.php?products_id=80&osCsid=kguat02fdk6a8q00ma31k228n1

*

Website articles:*

How to use a long line properly here (under information to download)

http://www.dogpsyche.co.uk/

http://www.apdt.co.uk/content/files/training-tips/RECALL.pdf

http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/reliable_recall.pdf

http://www.clickerdogs.com/perfectrecall.htm

http://www.clickerdogs.com/listofreinforcers.htm

http://www.clickerdogs.com/distracti...yourrecall.htm

http://susangarrettdogagility.com/20...call-collapse/

http://www.clickerdogs.com/createamotivatingtoy.htm

http://www.cleverdogcompany.com/tl_f...e%20recall.pdf

http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/teaching-come/

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/how-do-...y-dog-chasing/

http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/come-at-the-park

http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/te..._to_you_on_cue

http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/be...me-when-called

http://www.kathysdao.com/articles/The_First_Steps_to_Teaching_a_Reliable_Recall.html

http://www.kathysdao.com/articles/More_on_the_Reliable_Recall.html

http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/lessons/Lesson6.html

http://denisefenzipetdogs.com/2015/09/21/recall-training/


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## Thelordofmersea (Mar 24, 2017)

Canarie said:


> Hi,
> Has anybody used this company for dog training? They are based in Cambridge.....
> 
> thankyou
> ...


Hi Gill
FYI I have been in contact and visited a number of residential dog training companies with my dog in a search to gather information as to which of them to use. In my opinion G3 dogs and it's director Edmond Kan is probably the most honest one of them all. Take a look on YouTube to see how well his dogs are trained. It looks even better when you see them for yourself. Also to dispel a lot of the rubbish being promulgated in these strings, an e-collar is a very effective 'training tool' if used correctly (its nothing to do with punishment). To enlighten some of the other posters, I am retired from the emergency services and I can reliably inform you that the UK Police, Fire Service Search and Rescue and most gun dog trainers all use e-collars to reliably train their dogs. In fact, quite a number of them use pinch collars too. It really winds me up when ill-informed people give their opinions based on myths and preconceived ideas. I suppose these people are against slip collars too? Because the Guide Dogs for the blind and the RSPCA use them - what do they know!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Thelordofmersea said:


> Hi Gill
> FYI I have been in contact and visited a number of residential dog training companies with my dog in a search to gather information as to which of them to use. In my opinion G3 dogs and it's director Edmond Kan is probably the most honest one of them all. Take a look on YouTube to see how well his dogs are trained. It looks even better when you see them for yourself. Also to dispel a lot of the rubbish being promulgated in these strings, an e-collar is a very effective 'training tool' if used correctly (its nothing to do with punishment). To enlighten some of the other posters, I am retired from the emergency services and I can reliably inform you that the UK Police, Fire Service Search and Rescue and most gun dog trainers all use e-collars to reliably train their dogs. In fact, quite a number of them use pinch collars too. It really winds me up when ill-informed people give their opinions based on myths and preconceived ideas. I suppose these people are against slip collars too? Because the Guide Dogs for the blind and the RSPCA use them - what do they know!


I am not 100% anti ecollars (although don't think they should be used by most people) but to say they are 'nothing to do with punishment' is completely wrong ... of course they are 'punishers' .... that's the point of them!

I didn't think the police were now using these, I thought they were banned several years ago ....

Edited: "Equipment that is not approved for use in the training police dogs includes remote training collars designed to give an electric shock & pinch collars"

Copied from Police Dog Manual of Guidance 2011 FOI version 1.1


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

And I have seen lots of incredibly well trained dogs who have competed at high levels in WT or IPO who have never had electric or pinch collars on them ..... a great handler can work wonders!


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## Thelordofmersea (Mar 24, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> I am not 100% anti ecollars (although don't think they should be used by most people) but to say they are 'nothing to do with punishment' is completely wrong ... of course they are 'punishers' .... that's the point of them!
> 
> I didn't think the police were now using these, I thought they were banned several years ago ....


Once again Gill, I don't know who told you the Police banned their use but this is totally false. Obviously I can't speak for all Poliice Forces but Essex are still using them. With regards to it hurting the dog, as I said it's a training tool like any other tool. After all, you wouldn't just pick up a chainsaw without being shown how to use it first! I have unfortunately seen too many frustrated owners yanking on their leads to even judge what physical pain let alone mental scars this has placed on owners pets. At least a minimal pain level can be set on an e-collar unlike the restraint of an angry, frustrated lead yanker!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Thelordofmersea said:


> Once again Gill, I don't know who told you the Police banned their use but this is totally false. Obviously I can't speak for all Poliice Forces but Essex are still using them. With regards to it hurting the dog, as I said it's a training tool like any other tool. After all, you wouldn't just pick up a chainsaw without being shown how to use it first! I have unfortunately seen too many frustrated owners yanking on their leads to even judge what physical pain let alone mental scars this has placed on owners pets. At least a minimal pain level can be set on an e-collar unlike the restraint of an angry, frustrated lead yanker!


Nobody told me .... it's in their training manual .... take a look!

The problem is that many people will just pick them up, slap them on their dog then buzz the f*ck out of them .... I have seen this. I agree that there are plenty of other aversives that people can use & yanking a dog on a flat collar can be equally as punishing
That's the point of so many training failures, the dog hasn't been trained correctly & doesn't understand. Yes, it is a 'training' tool but lets not forget that it is an aversive for most dogs, & to say it's not punishing simply isn't true.

I do know someone who has had a trainer use one on her dog very effectively but I have seen a couple of people recently using them & it is abuse IMO. They have failed to train their dog correctly so are punishing the dog for their own short comings ..... sometimes you just need to take a step back & re-think what you are trying to train & how you are doing it rather than go for something so punishing


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/744922.stm ACPO banned electric & pinch collars to be used in 2000


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2017)

Thelordofmersea said:


> Hi Gill
> FYI I have been in contact and visited a number of residential dog training companies with my dog in a search to gather information as to which of them to use. In my opinion G3 dogs and it's director Edmond Kan is probably the most honest one of them all. Take a look on YouTube to see how well his dogs are trained. It looks even better when you see them for yourself. Also to dispel a lot of the rubbish being promulgated in these strings, an e-collar is a very effective 'training tool' if used correctly (its nothing to do with punishment). To enlighten some of the other posters, I am retired from the emergency services and I can reliably inform you that the UK Police, Fire Service Search and Rescue and most gun dog trainers all use e-collars to reliably train their dogs. In fact, quite a number of them use pinch collars too. It really winds me up when ill-informed people give their opinions based on myths and preconceived ideas. I suppose these people are against slip collars too? Because the Guide Dogs for the blind and the RSPCA use them - what do they know!


Interesting that you should come on here to "enlighten" posters, yet this post itself has inaccuracies.

E-collars do work via punishment. That's not inherently a bad thing, all training will have punishment in some way or another. And it need not be painful or harsh. But the whole point of an electronic collar is so that the stimulation is unpleasant enough that the dog will work to avoid it.
Like @Cleo38 I don't judge tool use, and I know there are trainers who use e-collars in a humane and effective way, but I also believe in being educated on how they work.

As for using them in police work as already pointed out to you the UK police do not use e-collars anymore. And I am quite sure that no one who knows what they're doing is using an e-collar to train any sort of detection work LOL!


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Thelordofmersea said:


> I can't speak for all Poliice Forces but Essex are still using them.


If that is a fact and not just hearsay then they need reporting!

"The Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) has launched a national police dog strategy which outlaws the use of punishment equipment"

The welfare law was changed after 3 dog handlers in Essex were convicted of cruelty in 1998, after a dog died.

As to the use of e-collars - I believe they have their place as a training tool (not one I would use myself, but I understand their use), but they should not be readily available for the gen public to slap on their dogs willy nilly.


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## Thelordofmersea (Mar 24, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> Nobody told me .... it's in their training manual .... take a look!
> 
> The problem is that many people will just pick them up, slap them on their dog then buzz the f*ck out of them .... I have seen this. I agree that there are plenty of other aversives that people can use & yanking a dog on a flat collar can be equally as punishing
> That's the point of so many training failures, the dog hasn't been trained correctly & doesn't understand. Yes, it is a 'training' tool but lets not forget that it is an aversive for most dogs, & to say it's not punishing simply isn't true.
> ...


I agree with you 100% Gill. The problem with them is that people just buy them on places like EBay and use them without having a clue how to use it properly. It may have come across in my posts that I have experience of using them but I have never personally had to use one on my dogs but I did do a lot of research into them (I suffer with OCD) and there are many trainers who swear by their ability to be used in certain aspects of training particularly recall around distractions. Hopefully I haven't offended anyone with my comments as I only giving an opinion based on my research experiences.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2017)

Thelordofmersea said:


> I agree with you 100% Gill. The problem with them is that people just buy them on places like EBay and use them without having a clue how to use it properly. It may have come across in my posts that I have experience of using them but I have never personally had to use one on my dogs but I did do a lot of research into them (I suffer with OCD) and there are many trainers who swear by their ability to be used in certain aspects of training particularly recall around distractions. Hopefully I haven't offended anyone with my comments as I only giving an opinion based on my research experiences.


The thing about using an e-collar for recall is that it takes a lot of training savvy, a great knowledge of dog body language, and a thorough understanding of how to apply learning theory. And the people who need help getting their dog to recall have none of the above. So an e-collar simply further erodes the relationship which in turn makes teaching recall even harder.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Thelordofmersea said:


> I agree with you 100% Gill. The problem with them is that people just buy them on places like EBay and use them without having a clue how to use it properly. It may have come across in my posts that I have experience of using them but I have never personally had to use one on my dogs but I did do a lot of research into them (I suffer with OCD) and there are many trainers who swear by their ability to be used in certain aspects of training particularly recall around distractions. Hopefully I haven't offended anyone with my comments as I only giving an opinion based on my research experiences.


So are you saying e-collars are still widely used by trainers in the UK then?

I can hardly believe in these enlightened times that I'm reading this.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Thelordofmersea said:


> Once again Gill, I don't know who told you the Police banned their use but this is totally false. Obviously I can't speak for all Poliice Forces but Essex are still using them. With regards to it hurting the dog, as I said it's a training tool like any other tool. After all, you wouldn't just pick up a chainsaw without being shown how to use it first! I have unfortunately seen too many frustrated owners yanking on their leads to even judge what physical pain let alone mental scars this has placed on owners pets. At least a minimal pain level can be set on an e-collar unlike the restraint of an angry, frustrated lead yanker!


This is totally untrue http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/744922.stm

And I am not just relying on the headlines for my information as I train with many people who are actually police dog handlers and instructors

Please stop spreading malicious gossip


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

What I want to know is whether all female posters on this thread are called Gill or whether its code language for something I know nothing about


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## Thelordofmersea (Mar 24, 2017)

ouesi said:


> The thing about using an e-collar for recall is that it takes a lot of training savvy, a great knowledge of dog body language, and a thorough understanding of how to apply learning theory. And the people who need help getting their dog to recall have none of the above. So an e-collar simply further erodes the relationship which in turn makes teaching recall even harder.


As I said, it's probably all in the training!


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2017)

Thelordofmersea said:


> As I said, it's probably all in the training!


So you don't really know that much about e-collars, yet your purpose in joining was to enlighten us on their use? What?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Twiggy said:


> So are you saying e-collars are still widely used by trainers in the UK then?
> I can hardly believe in these enlightened times that I'm reading this.


Neither can I. There's nothing can usefully be achieved with them that can't be achieved without them with patience and perseverance. Even if you don't believe they're cruel and unnecessary you have to see they're just a tool for lazy.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

havoc said:


> Neither can I. There's nothing can usefully be achieved with them that can't be achieved without them with patience and perseverance. Even if you don't believe they're cruel and unnecessary you have to see they're just a tool for lazy.


Sorry I disagree, for some people they are a 'last resort'. In my case (I didn't use one in the end) I had been patient, I had persevered, I had seen numerous trainers, read numerous books, attended courses, perfected different exercises (chasing balls, 'bolting rabbits', etc) yet still my dog would chase certain wildlife.

I was not lazy just had run out of ideas & didn't want a dog who was confined to a lead for the rest of her life. I didn't end up using one in the end as the trainer I went to see didn't think it was the right tool to use but instead I learnt that I would not 'cure' my dog but needed better management skills.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Cleo38 said:


> I had persevered, I had seen numerous trainers, read numerous books, attended courses, perfected different exercises (chasing balls, 'bolting rabbits', etc) yet still my dog would chase certain wildlife.


That's the very reason my dog is back on lead walking at the moment. It doesn't mean he'll never be allowed off the lead again. I failed to prevent a chase when a hare jumped out just a couple of feet in front of us - it's that time of year. It's the same theory of putting a dog on a lead in the vicinity of sheep - I wouldn't use a shock collar in that situation either.

I will say that lead walking is doing both he and I a world of good. He doesn't mind, I have had to stop footling around and pick up the pace and being on the lead for a couple of miles each morning appears to tire/settle him far better than running free did - or maybe the spring scents were exciting him. I HAD got lazy because he is reasonably behaved most of the time. Ridiculous as it may sound I'm grateful for that one lapse because I needed the kick up the backside.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

havoc said:


> That's the very reason my dog is back on lead walking at the moment. It doesn't mean he'll never be allowed off the lead again. I failed to prevent a chase when a hare jumped out just a couple of feet in front of us - it's that time of year. It's the same theory of putting a dog on a lead in the vicinity of sheep - I wouldn't use a shock collar in that situation either.
> 
> I will say that lead walking is doing both he and I a world of good. He doesn't mind, I have had to stop footling around and pick up the pace and being on the lead for a couple of miles each morning appears to tire/settle him far better than running free did - or maybe the spring scents were exciting him. I HAD got lazy because he is reasonably behaved.


Where I live the wildlife is abundant, there are no 'safe' walks therefore at one stage my dog would have had to have been on a lead all the time.The fact that she chose to chase deer who run for miles made it more scary for me & I was so worried that I would lose her or she would injure herself whilst off chasing. I literally had come to to the point where walks were stressful, for me if she were off lead & for her if she was always on a lead ...... that's why I did consider an ecollar.

She hasn't chased anything for over 3yrs now because of my better management & I got that from the trainer I see now who has completely changed the way I look at dog training, etc. whilst I appreciate that everyone will have opinions about these things I don;t think it is correct to say they are for lazy dog owners .... I am certainly not a lazy dog owner .... if I were I wouldn't be getting up at 4.30am every morning for them


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Cleo38 said:


> She hasn't chased anything for over 3yrs now because of my better management & I got that from the trainer I see now who has completely changed the way I look at dog training, etc.


Doesn't that prove there's a viable alternative to a shock collar which would have been less effort on your part and given a quicker result than learning proper management. That's what I meant by lazy.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

havoc said:


> Doesn't that prove there's a viable alternative to a shock collar which would have been less effort on your part and given a quicker result than learning proper management. That's what I meant by lazy.


Not necessarily ..... I know a couple of people who have used them & they have been successful. Th dogs involved were not traumatized by them, there was no serious 'fallout' & the problem resolved. In my case the trainer did not feel that an ecollar would be a good choice knowing she could be a stressy dog.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2017)

havoc said:


> Doesn't that prove there's a viable alternative to a shock collar which would have been less effort on your part and given a quicker result than learning proper management. That's what I meant by lazy.


Depends on how you want to view it really. 
To me it simply proves that @Cleo38 is a very conscientious owner, certainly not a lazy one...

I'm pretty sure the choice of tool doesn't correspond to owner type that closely. I know some real asshat trainers who eschew tools like prongs and e-collars, yet are awful to their dogs. I know some amazing and knowledgeable trainers who don't give an automatic no to any tool.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Twiggy said:


> So are you saying e-collars are still widely used by trainers in the UK then?
> 
> I can hardly believe in these enlightened times that I'm reading this.


Yes, I think you will find that e collars are still used widely, very well by some and very poorly by others.

I had a collie that ran up and down the fence totally obsessed by the horses. I decided to try an e collar so I asked the local SSPCA inspector to come and watch and give his opinion. Both he and I decided that the collar was in no way cruel but it was useless for the job so I sent it back.

A few years later I had a standard poodle that bolted to go rabbitting. It did not need a rabbit to come up, she just went even if she was right at my feet. She had a good recall when it suited but it was getting dangerous. It was either a case of leaving her chained up when I was working outside, shut in the house or an e collar. I got a much better quality one than the previous one which came with very clear instructions that you did not use it till you had trained your dog with a dummy collar on and it was not there for basic training only for emergency training. She loved having it on as it meant fun one on one training with the other dogs left at home. The first time she ran off and was 3 fields away before she felt it and came haring back to lots of fuss and praise. The second time I used it she shot straight back to me, again lots of fuss and praise. After that she ran around, tail going and never getting too far away, the perfect happy dog. The next spring when the rabbits reappeared I put it back on her and had to use it once all summer. Again a happy dog with no one having to get on at her. Freedom to run around and play so long as she did not bolt.
What exactly is wrong with that.

Toffee has had it on too as she will disappear after rabbits. Two slight shocks and she is pretty good now though if no one is watching her she will still clear off.

Personally I would rather 'cure' a dog than spend years nagging it and not being able to give it freedom.

To use one for ordinary training seems weird and not sure how you get a good relationship with a dog when using one like that.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

It's not really 'curing' the dog in the situations you mentioned is it though, Blitz? It's masking it. The dog still wants to bog off chasing or hunting, it's just afraid to try it. In the right circumstances especially if there is no collar attached, the dog will still bog off. It's not changing the behaviour after all, just punishing it.

I don't dispute their use in last resort cases and also can't deny that some top competitors in dog sports use them very effectively. However, for pet dogs, 9 times out of 10 they are a quick fix. And I cannot imagine for one minute that 95% of regular pet dog owners are skilled enough at handling and timing to use them effectively.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Blitz said:


> Yes, I think you will find that e collars are still used widely, very well by some and very poorly by others.
> 
> I had a collie that ran up and down the fence totally obsessed by the horses. I decided to try an e collar so I asked the local SSPCA inspector to come and watch and give his opinion. Both he and I decided that the collar was in no way cruel but it was useless for the job so I sent it back.
> 
> ...


How is she cured if she will still clear off if no one is watching her? I too have a dog who will totally blow his recall even though very well trained to the whistle. With him its the scent of birds - he goes into a total meltdown if he smells or hears pheasant or duck or partridge. I would not dream of shocking him for doing what his instinct and his previous working dog training in Ireland is driving him to do. That would break the bond we have spent years building up. Simple answer stick him on a long line and he still gets to run and follow scents but safely.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Blitz said:


> Yes, I think you will find that e collars are still used widely, very well by some and very poorly by others.
> 
> I had a collie that ran up and down the fence totally obsessed by the horses. I decided to try an e collar so I asked the local SSPCA inspector to come and watch and give his opinion. Both he and I decided that the collar was in no way cruel but it was useless for the job so I sent it back.
> 
> ...


A friend of mine used one on her dog, it was either sort the problem or the dog wuld be left on her own alot of the day rather than being out & about around the farm. It was successful with her dog, she still 'trains' her dog & has used the collar again (in the past 5yrs) & her dog has a fab life. But ... she used it with guidance, her dog was a very confident dog with an already good level of obedience (except for chasing wildlife!!) & it was (in her opinion)the 'right thing to try .... & tbh I can't disagree when I see how her dog is.

On the other hand there is a woman at my training club who has a young GSD, very fearful, she has no relationship with the dog, has made many mistakes & her latest thing is to whack a shock collar on him. It was only noticed when she accidentally set it off when the poor dog was doing exactly what it was supposed to be doing .... she was told to get it off him immediately .... to me that is abuse but unfortunately i think this scenario is the more likely of the two


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2017)

Hrm, not sure what "curing" a dog of a behavior has to do with anything. 
Bates came to us in part because he was chasing horses (and wildlife, but the stock chasing was more of a concern), and killing chickens. In his time chasing horses he got kicked in the face and still bears the scars and lost tooth from that. Didn't deter him in the least, which was what his previous owners were counting on, one good kick would teach him some manners around horses like it does with most dogs, if it doesn't kill them. Not Bates. Just taught him to duck. Around here, dogs like that usually get shot. No one has any use for a dog who chases stock and won't learn a lesson from them. Fortunately for us, his previous owners were not the shoot the dog kind. 

Bates is still not cured of wanting to chase things. What he does have though is a really solid recall that I can call him off a chase, and he also has a wait cue where he knows he has to stay put. None taught with an e-collar. I am fortunate to have amazing professionals in my network who worked with us and his drives. He is biddable enough and we have a good enough relationship that he cares about my opinion even if he disagrees with it. And he is of course vocal about disagreeing with my opinion sometimes enguin

Anyway, the point of that, is that no, he's not cured of anything, but he has some new behaviors, namely a recall, and some impulse control, that make it possible for him to be safely off leash. If I'm not around, all bets are off. 

As for e-collars, Bates would not have been a good candidate because if getting his face bashed in by a hoof isn't enough motivation to stop chasing, I doubt he would give a shit about being shocked, and I'm not sadistic enough to see what level of shock he would care about. 

However, to be fair, I don't know many trainers who recommend the "hand of god" shock for chasing anymore. It used to be the done thing, and when it works it does work well, (I don't see the point in denying that these tools can be effective), however it doesn't always work. I don't know any statistics or anything but I do know a hell of a lot of dogs who blow through the pain of a shock because the thrill of the chase is worth it. Just like humans bite in to that pizza we know is too hot and going to burn the roof of our mouth but we can't help it because the pizza is worth it. 
If you're using a shock collar for positive punishment it's a good idea to be really familiar with Steve White's rules of punishment, and know your dog. Some dogs just aren't motivated by physical punishment. 

There are other ways to use a shock collar at much lower levels to teach a recall. Basically negative reinforcement as opposed to the positive punishment of shocking a dog for running off. But just like any other training, it takes skill and time. It's certainly no quick fix. And I have my own opinions about the strength of positively reinforced behaviors as opposed to negatively reinforced ones.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

labradrk said:


> It's not really 'curing' the dog in the situations you mentioned is it though, Blitz? It's masking it. The dog still wants to bog off chasing or hunting, it's just afraid to try it. In the right circumstances especially if there is no collar attached, the dog will still bog off. It's not changing the behaviour after all, just punishing it.
> 
> I don't dispute their use in last resort cases and also can't deny that some top competitors in dog sports use them very effectively. However, for pet dogs, 9 times out of 10 they are a quick fix. And I cannot imagine for one minute that 95% of regular pet dog owners are skilled enough at handling and timing to use them effectively.


I agree with you that most pet owners should not use a collar as their timing will be out. I think most of the people I know that use one are competent horse handlers who have spot on timing.

Of course it is not curing it - to cure it you would have to use such a strong adversive that the poor dog was wrecked. It is teaching the dog that running off is not as good as staying with you which is all recall training is anyway - just that in some situations some dogs need a stronger motivation not to disappear.

Ouesi, I too have had a collie that was kicked lots of times, she did not give a damn. She was knocked right out once, she was forever needing stitches because she went through barbed wire fences but it was all good fun to her. I never tried an e collar on her and would not have done in her case anyway but there is every chance it would not have worked. She was good trials breeding and I did work her with sheep in later life and what a job I had getting her to work them as I had trained her (by voice alone) that sheep were strictly out of bounds. I could walk her straight through a flock of sheep and her eyes would not even slide towards them. It had the great advantage that once she overcame her earlier training and decided it was ok to go out and work she never ever anticipated and would stay in a down while my younger dog worked. Poodles are a completely different cup of tea though.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

labradrk said:


> It's not really 'curing' the dog in the situations you mentioned is it though, Blitz? It's masking it. The dog still wants to bog off chasing or hunting, it's just afraid to try it. In the right circumstances especially if there is no collar attached, the dog will still bog off. It's not changing the behaviour after all, just punishing it.
> 
> I don't dispute their use in last resort cases and also can't deny that some top competitors in dog sports use them very effectively. However, for pet dogs, 9 times out of 10 they are a quick fix. And I cannot imagine for one minute that 95% of regular pet dog owners are skilled enough at handling and timing to use them effectively.


Well I hope 'top competitors in dog sports' don't use E collars here in the UK. Any dog sports should be teamwork between you and your dog and enjoyable for both. If you have to resort to e collars then something is very wrong in the relationship IMO.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Thelordofmersea:

... *The problem with* [*shock collars*] *is that people just buy them* on places like e-Bay *&* *use them without having a clue how to use it properly.*
...

/QUOTE
.
.
Actually, the problem with shock collars is that they deliver a shock.  Using them with deep knowledge or not, using them "well" or "poorly", whatever level of skill, whatever the owner or handler's prior experience, used for whatever training or whichever B-Mod, used on whatever breed or mix.
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Aversives - whatever they may be - can only be used AFTER the fact. U cannot possibly apply an aversive BEFORE the fact. They are used to discourage repetition of the immediately prior behavior. They do not "build" a behavior; they quash or suppress an unwanted behavior.
There is an exception: waste extra time & effort desensitizing the learner to the aversive stimulus, & then use the innately-aversive stimulus as a "marker" to predict a reward. I say _*waste time *_because U can simply start training / B-mod immediately *without* desensitizing by... simply using a reward. :Hilarious Any reward - food, toy, tug, Real-life reward [open the house door to let the dog into the yard for a romp?... Deliver dinner?... Let the dog off-leash to play with a k9 buddy?...].
.
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Shock is not a stimulus that any species yet studied has "liked". As in, ever. If it's perceptible, shock is unpleasant & unwanted & startling & perceived as pain - call it discomfort, when it's extremely low-level, but it's still not "wanted", OK?
If they can feel it, they don't like it & will endeavor to escape it, or otherwise react [jump, twitch, flinch, yelp, etc].
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Every species thus far studied has learned rapidly, efficiently, & happily by using *positive reinforcement. *Literally NO species yet tried has failed to learn, using rewards. If a flatworm can learn to solve a T-maze with food rewards - & zero punishment / no aversives for WRONG answers --- then Ur dog, who HAS a brain, a spinal cord, etc, unlike a one-celled flatworm, surely can learn much more complex behaviors without aversives being used.
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Plus, advertising for G3 goes in a different sub-forum. // Please post in the "Classifieds" section.
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## Guest (Mar 25, 2017)

leashedForLife said:


> Aversives - whatever they may be - can only be used AFTER the fact. U cannot possibly apply an aversive BEFORE the fact. They are used to discourage repetition of the immediately prior behavior. They do not "build" a behavior; they quash or suppress an unwanted behavior.


That's not entirely accurate. 
Negative reinforcement works by the removal of an aversive. That's how reins attached to a bit in a horse's mouth work. Pull rein, horse yields to the pressure (aversive) remove the pressure. Classic negative reinforcement. Done right you get a horse who responds to the slightest of finger twitch on a rein, but it's still pressure the horse is working to avoid. 
The same can be done with aversives in dog training. Like I said before, I have my own opinions about negative reinforcement, I believe positive reinforcement creates stronger, more reliable behaviors, but there is no denying the effective use of negative reinforcement.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Twiggy said:


> Well I hope 'top competitors in dog sports' don't use E collars here in the UK. Any dog sports should be teamwork between you and your dog and enjoyable for both. If you have to resort to e collars then something is very wrong in the relationship IMO.


I agree but unfortunately some do ...... & I really have no idea why as a couple I have met are actually pretty good handlers & don't need to resort to such tools


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2017)

Twiggy said:


> Well I hope 'top competitors in dog sports' don't use E collars here in the UK. Any dog sports should be teamwork between you and your dog and enjoyable for both. If you have to resort to e collars then something is very wrong in the relationship IMO.


I don't understand the use of e-collars to teach behaviors. I really don't. Some argue their use in distance work, but anything you do with an e-collar you can also do with a clicker and/or whistle IMHO.

I can sort of understand their use with a very specific kind of dog who gets very upset by negative punishment in the way of removing the opportunity for a reward. Some dogs would rather get a quick "eh" reminder on the e-collar than have their reward opportunity removed.

Granted, if you're setting up your criteria carefully from the get-go, you should not wind up in the position to have to punish anything, but we are human after all.

I don't know that I personally would be okay with punishing my dog for my failures as a trainer, I think I would go back a step (or 10) and re-do that particular exercise. But I'm not a professional trying to make a living or in a time crunch for a massive international competition where fractions of points could make a huge difference. So yeah, I'm going to keep my gob shut in that area


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
let's look at some theory [learning theory] & then look at examples of how it's used IRL. 
.
Learning theory tells us there are 4 quadrants or "possible consequences" of behaviors - "Nothing" is a 5th possibility; no reward, no aversive, no bad outcome... Zilch, nada, zip.
.
There are 2 'positive' quadrants, which is not the common sense of "happy" or "good" - positive in this context means ADD something; think maths.
There are also 2 'negative' quadrants, similarly not "bad" or "sad" but negative in the maths sense, we are TAKING SOMETHING AWAY.

REINFORCE = strengthen; increase a behavior in frequency or duration.
PUNISH = discourage; decrease a behavior's frequency or duration.
.
Positive reinforcement ADDS something rewarding - anything this learner will happily work to earn.
Positive *p**unishment* ADDS something aversive - anything this learner will gladly work to *avoid.*
Examples of Pos-R include tidbits, fetch, a chance to hunt / herd / fulfill an innate instinct, Real-Life rewards, etc.
Examples of Pos-P include the aforementioned shock [from a collar, a 'hot' fence, a scat-mat, etc], a choke-chain / prong collar / infinite slip, a swat with the leash, smack with one's hand, or intimidation / threats, which can be overt or covert: Looming over. Hard stare. Angry shouts. & similar.
.
Negative reinforcement DEDUCTS something unwanted, to REINFORCE a desired behavior. // This is used more in horse training than in dog training; the horse pulls, the pressure of the bit on the "bars" of the gum hurt, & the horse moves off the pressure / reduces the force of their pull, & eventually - so the hypothesis goes - s/he will move readily when minimal pressure is applied, as a cue to halt, turn, yield & side-step, & so on.
HOWEVER - neg-R, which is an aversive technique, still applies the aversive _post-facto: _the horse pulls FIRST, & we pull BACK against their force. We are reacting to an un-wanted behavior, & punishing it.
Similarly in dog-training, a choke-chain / infinite slip collar or prong collar all use Neg-R: "Stop pulling, & it stops hurting".  Not my favorite teaching precept; i'd much rather shape, lure, or capture the behavior that i _*want*, _rather than punish any of the infinite number of possible behaviors that i DO NOT want, in this context.
.
Negative *p**unishment* is the 4th & final quadrant i'll talk about.
Neg-P takes away something the learner really _*WANTS*_ - a simple example, U come home; Ur young pup is thrilled by Ur return, & jumps up, panting, smiling, & wagging, trying desperately to reach & lick Ur face.  There go the nice slacks, the pup's claws pull the threads & suddenly, they're ragged.  That was quick! ... So U spin on Ur heel, don't speak / don't scold, & walk out of the room. Wait 5-seconds, enter again... Still jumping. // Exit. Wait 5-secs. Re-enter... still jumping. // Exit. Wait 5-secs. Re-enter... puppy is looking confused, & tentatively sits without a cue. *Warm, quiet, low-key praise!  Squat & talk softly, scritching the pup's chest. *Getting down to Pup's level is also rewarding - pups instinctively want to greet us by licking our faces, as they would a parent or a caregiving adult dog. It's not their fault we're bipedal & average 5-ft to 6-ft tall.
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Traditional AKA aversive trainers generally rely on aversive tools, & methods that suppress or punish unwanted behaviors. If they use Pos-R, it's not often.
Science-based AKA humane trainers generally rely on rewards, & methods that goof-proof training: they elicit or encourage the behavior they WANT, by making the behaviors they don't want difficult or impossible to do. // If humane trainers use pos-P / aversives, it's rare & often only in an emergency, not during training - Training is planned; emergencies happen, & we deal as best we can, under the given circs.
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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I really do think that some people forget that it is not us that decides what is aversive...it is the dogs.
Some dogs will find a simple pat just as aversive as others might find a check chain, whilst others would look at a shock collar as nothing...just a mild irritation!

We don't get to choose what our dogs find punishing


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

StormyThai said:


> I really do think that some people forget that it is not us that decides what is aversive...it is the dogs.
> Some dogs will find a simple pat just as aversive as others might find a check chain, whilst others would look at a shock collar as nothing...just a mild irritation!
> 
> We don't get to choose what our dogs find punishing


Completely agree. The worst 'punishment' my young GSD had was when we were tracking & he went over an article (I was having so many problems with these at the time) & I dropped the line, said (not shouted) "Oh FFS" & walked off mid track .... he was distrauight .... so upset & then started showing me that he could do it by offering a down (as in indicating the article) but very hectic as he was so worried ...... I would never do that again to him as i was obviously far mor distressing than if I had given him a lead correction (which I also wouldn't do)


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

StormyThai said:


> I really do think that some people forget that it is not us that decides what is aversive...it is the dogs.
> Some dogs will find a simple pat just as aversive as others might find a check chain, whilst others would look at a shock collar as nothing...just a mild irritation!
> 
> We don't get to choose what our dogs find punishing


How do we know that the dog finds it nothing and "just a mild irritation" though? not all dogs will show pain or distress as readily as others, a more stoical dog might not show how uncomfortable they find something but it doesn't mean they are not affected by it.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I wasn't using that example as a way to condone there use. As I have said before, personally I wouldn't use them and I don't think the vast majority of others should either.
I was just saying that we don't get to pick what is punishing. It isn't as black and white as tool A = good to all dogs and Tool B = bad to all dogs


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2017)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> How do we know that the dog finds it nothing and "just a mild irritation" though? not all dogs will show pain or distress as readily as others, a more stoical dog might not show how uncomfortable they find something but it doesn't mean they are not affected by it.


That's why you study dog body language, look at tons of different dogs and look at how each one shows discomfort. Then you take your own dog, watch him/her and really get to know them and their way of showing pain/unease/discomfort. 
Which is reason #478 why shock collars should not wind up in the hands of your APO to try out.

But it is true that there are dogs out there who are miserable in their head collars, put those dogs in a prong collar and they're totally fine. In the same way there are dogs who really are fine with a quick reminder on the e-collar. 
That's why I can't get behind this no positive punishment movement, because for some dogs, judicious use of P+ is a more humane option than negative punishment - punishment by removing something the dog wants. 
I have a dog who finds removal of my attention - especially when we're working, very upsetting and hard to recover from. If I went that route with him, it would erode our relationship far worse than a quick verbal reprimand. And yes, I know, if I were a better trainer, I wouldn't have to correct him at all, but I'm not, so there we are.

And not for nothing, watching your dog, learning your dog, knowing your dog, is important no matter what you're doing. Highly motivated working dogs are notorious for not realizing they're in pain while they're working and it's up to the handler to watch them and notice those teeny tiny subtle little changes that indicate something isn't quite right.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ouesi said:


> That's why you study dog body language, look at tons of different dogs and look at how each one shows discomfort. Then you take your own dog, watch him/her and really get to know them and their way of showing pain/unease/discomfort.
> Which is reason #478 why shock collars should not wind up in the hands of your APO to try out.
> 
> But it is true that there are dogs out there who are miserable in their head collars, put those dogs in a prong collar and they're totally fine. In the same way there are dogs who really are fine with a quick reminder on the e-collar.
> ...


This is how I feel, I've said before that Roxy hated her head collar with a passion, so much so that even though I stopped using it years ago when she saw it in the cupboard she ran away. Am sure if I was going to use a training tool she would have actually preferred a pinch collar rather than any head collar.

Alot of members at the IPO club I attend use pinch collars on their dogs;some use them well & some not so well. Those that do use them well are good handlers & although it;s tool I chose not to use on my dog it doesn't mean they are 'wrong' or are 'cruel' to their dogs. They have great relationships with their dogs & their dogs work really well for them, but none of the dogs look miserable or anxious ...... I agree that things just aren't always B&W


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
my list of "_tools i will not use, ever_" includes
 - shock collars, whether for training or B-Mod or for any other purpose, 
- shock mats, AKA "*invisible crates*" - asinine label, IMO. :Meh
- exclusion fences [keep dog OUT of an area] or boundary fences [to keep dog INSIDE an area] linked to a shock-collar
- water balloons
- rattle cans or rattle bottles
- infinite-slip nylon collars
- infinite-slip AKA choke chains
- prong collars; nylon, metal, plastic, nylon webbing with spring-steel teeth that poke thru the webbing, ______ ; any, every, all.
.
.
I MIGHT - emphasize might - use a throw-chain or a string of small bells as a conditioned interruptor. It would depend on what we were working on, & the dog we were working with. One dog who had a severe pica reflex when she got stressed would probly have been even-more stressed by any sort of interruptor; U may recall her, she was the Dalmatian who once *tried to swallow broken glass* she found on a tennis-court. 
Another dog with mild pica might have coped very well with a few high-pitched bells tossed within 6-ft or so of her; she was the pittie-X i trained with her handler to become a Hearing Ear dog, & she was far, far more resilient. // Her favored items of inedible stuff to swallow were cig-butts & styrofoam coffee cups; NICOTINE is a poison, in case anyone has forgotten that, as well as a 'stimulant'. :Vomit
.
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My preferred tools include
- sighthound-style martingale at least as wide as the dog's cervical vertebra
- front-clip Y harness; if not available, a 3-strap model with neck & girth joined by either a spinal strap, sternal strap, or both.
- 6-ft nylon or veg-tanned harness leather leash
- Gentle Leader headcollar for specific issues [handler or dog].
- Planet Dog Orbee balls with floating rope loops tied thru
- clicker or other marker [small flashlight, thumbs-up, ballpoint pen...]
.
.
TECHNIQUES i won't use except in a flat-out emergency include
- hoisting the dog by the collar, to lift their forelegs off the ground & stop a bite / an attack.
- hitting a dog with anything; my hand, a leash, _________ .
- choking off a dog's airway.
.
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I have & will work with dogs who have bite histories, even those deemed legally dangerous. There are ground rules to keep myself & everyone else safe; a pre-conditioned box muzzle is one such, double-handling when in public, with the owner on one leash, myself on the other, & the muzzled dog in the center, is another.
I don't indulge in drama for drama's sake, & i frankly don't want to see Ur dog in full-blown mania screaming threats over their bowl of food to determine_* just how bad their food guarding is, *_nor do i need to see Ur dog threaten a passing dog on the public path to determine *just how bad their reactivity / dog-aggro might be.*
There are perfectly simple, low-key ways to assess the dog's tolerance & find a threshold that's safe to begin B-Mod, without any rehearsal of unwanted behaviors whatever.

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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> *My preferred tools include*
> - sighthound-style martingale at least as wide as the dog's cervical vertebra
> ...


 But .... your preferred tools might not be the ones the dog prefers ..... as was being discussed earlier


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> That's why you study dog body language, look at tons of different dogs and look at how each one shows discomfort. Then you take your own dog, watch him/her and really get to know them and their way of showing pain/unease/discomfort.
> Which is reason #478 why shock collars should not wind up in the hands of your APO to try out.
> 
> But it is true that there are dogs out there who are miserable in their head collars, put those dogs in a prong collar and they're totally fine. In the same way there are dogs who really are fine with a quick reminder on the e-collar.
> ...


Yeah I get that but I don't believe for one second your average owner/handler/even trainers judging from some of the crap they spout does that. To hear that a lot of members at an IPO club are using pinch collars is extremely depressing


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2017)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yeah I get that but I don't believe for one second your average owner/handler/even trainers judging from some of the crap they spout does that. To hear that a lot of members at an IPO club are using pinch collars is extremely depressing


Well no. Of course your APO doesn't do that. And of course there are multiple trainers who use ecollars ineffectively and inhumanely. My point is that not all do and I don't think it's fair to lump trainers who use ecollars sparingly, judiciously, and keeping a close eye on their dog's comfort level in with the yahoos who don't which is what usually happens in these conversations, no room for grey areas, and they're there.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yeah I get that but I don't believe for one second your average owner/handler/even trainers judging from some of the crap they spout does that. To hear that a lot of members at an IPO club are using pinch collars is extremely depressing


Why is it depressing if the dogs are enjoying their work & not distressed at wearing the collar?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
the next time a dog _*demands*_ that i use a shock-collar, infinite-slip, water balloons, double-handed jerks or "pin the dog to the ground" a'la the Dawg Wrassler, etc, *I'm going to demand* an exclusive from the National Enquirer - to have my face, the dog's photo, & the headline of the story on the front page of the national edition... in exchange for not spilling the story to anyone else.

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## Guest (Mar 26, 2017)

Okay, I gotta ask. How do you use a water balloon in training?

And get your phone ready to call the National Enquirer because if there is a water balloon involved in training, I know of at least one dog who would for sure demand it


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> Why is it depressing if the dogs are enjoying their work & not distressed at wearing the collar?


Because I simply do not believe "a lot of dogs" are enjoying their work whilst being either shocked or pinched by their owners and I believe if their owner/handler thinks they are they are deluded.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> work whilst being either shocked or pinched by their owners


If used properly then the dogs aren't working whilst being shocked or pinched.
However, a head collar for example is on the dog regardless...many dogs find this aversive even with conditioning.

ETA: I do not like the use of them, nor would I recommend them...but not all dogs find an ecollar or prong aversive.
I am not denying that the dogs could have learnt another way (which is why I know that I would never use them), but the fact is that not all dogs agree with us about what is aversive.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2017)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Because I simply do not believe "a lot of dogs" are enjoying their work whilst being either shocked or pinched by their owners and I believe if their owner/handler thinks they are they are deluded.


Yeah, owners are deluded about a whole bunch of things. The deluded owners who think their fat dog isn't fat, that think their fearful dog is just being protective, who think separation anxiety is a dog who just loves them too much, who think their space invader dog is just saying hi....

But hey, they're not using pinch collars, so it's all good eh?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

StormyThai said:


> If used properly then the dogs aren't working whilst being shocked or pinched.
> However, a head collar for example is on the dog regardless...many dogs find this aversive even with conditioning.


This was the point I was responding to and the part I said I found depressing - it doesn't sound like they are being used properly does it? Finding it hard to get my head around the people who find this acceptable 



Cleo38 said:


> Alot of members at the IPO club I attend use pinch collars on their dogs;some use them well & some not so well.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Yeah, owners are deluded about a whole bunch of things. The deluded owners who think their fat dog isn't fat, that think their fearful dog is just being protective, who think separation anxiety is a dog who just loves them too much, who think their space invader dog is just saying hi....
> 
> But hey, they're not using pinch collars, so it's all good eh?


Nope, I didn't say that was all good either.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Because I simply do not believe "a lot of dogs" are enjoying their work whilst being either shocked or pinched by their owners and I believe if their owner/handler thinks they are they are deluded.


Ok ... so your opinion is based on what? What you have read, what you have witnessed or just what you think? A pinch collar is not always 'active' so would only be in use if the dog pulls against it. As I said I do not use one but some people at my club do, you are more than welcome to come & witness these 'oppressed' dogs at the club I train at ....I think you may be surprised at just how much enjoyment they have ....or maybe they are just putting on a show!


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2017)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Nope, I didn't say that was all good either.


Nobody said pinch collars or ecollars are good either did they?

Wouldn't it be better to educate people on how to train so they don't have to resort to these tools in the first place? 
And when educating, wouldn't it be more effective to come from a non-judgmental place of understanding of the tool instead of demonization of it?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> Ok ... so your opinion is based on what? What you have read, what you have witnessed or just what you think? A pinch collar is not always 'active' so would only be in use if the dog pulls against it. As I said I do not use one but some people at my club do, you are more than welcome to come & witness these 'oppressed' dogs at the club I train at ....I think you may be surprised at just how much enjoyment they have ....or maybe they are just putting on a show!


Its based on my opinion - that a pinch collar or a shock collar are not kind methods of training dogs and should have no place in modern day training especially not in training clubs by as you have said yourself "a lot of members some well & some not so well."

If some are not using them so well why are the trainers allowing them to continue doing so?



ouesi said:


> Nobody said pinch collars or ecollars are good either did they?
> 
> Wouldn't it be better to educate people on how to train so they don't have to resort to these tools in the first place?
> And when educating, wouldn't it be more effective to come from a non-judgmental place of understanding of the tool instead of demonization of it?


Some seem to be defending the use of pinch collars yes and @Cleo38 has stated that they are used a lot at her IPO club - that some use them well and some not so well. Do I find that depressing? Yes I do. Of course it would be better to educate and train people not to resort to these tools in the first place but I have no intention of pretending I like/agree with them when I absolutely do not. Isn't that a bit like saying we should teach people not to be violent towards their partners but we should not demonise domestic violence?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Its based on my opinion - that a pinch collar or a shock collar are not kind methods of training dogs and should have no place in modern day training especially not in training clubs by as you have said yourself "a lot of members some well & some not so well."
> 
> If some are not using them so well why are the trainers allowing them to continue doing so?
> 
> Some seem to be defending the use of pinch collars yes and @Cleo38 has stated that they are used a lot at her IPO club - that some use them well and some not so well. Do I find that depressing? Yes I do. Of course it would be better to educate and train people not to resort to these tools in the first place but I have no intention of pretending I like/agree with them when I absolutely do not. Isn't that a bit like saying we should teach people not to be violent towards their partners but we should not demonise domestic violence?


People misuse all sorts of dog training tools .. headcollars, flat collars, leads, etc but does that mean they should be banned? Not IMO.

I do find it very odd that people have no experience or knowledge yet are so anti certain things .... personally I would rather find out things myself then pass judgement.

And the comparison to domestic violence .... REALLY???!!!! Just wow ....


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2017)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Some seem to be defending the use of pinch collars yes and @Cleo38 has stated that they are used a lot at her IPO club - that some use them well and some not so well. Do I find that depressing? Yes I do. Of course it would be better to educate and train people not to resort to these tools in the first place but I have no intention of pretending I like/agree with them when I absolutely do not. Isn't that a bit like saying we should teach people not to be violent towards their partners but we should not demonise domestic violence?


No, that's a false analogy on many levels. 
Domestic violence is *violence*. A pinch collar sitting on a dog is not a violent act. And domestic violence has nothing to do with training an animal. 
Though I do find it incredibly ironic that I get flamed on this forum any time I speak out against hitting children (spanking/slapping/discipline, whatever you want to call it) by the same people who have a conniption over pinch collars.

Here's my argument in a nutshell. 
Dog gets to decide what is aversive. Not us.

For many dogs, head halters are highly aversive. Just putting one on causes the dog serious distress. Yet not one bats an eye at head collars. If the dog finds the head halter distressing posters say "condition it better, let the dog get used to it". There is no acceptance of the fact that some dogs simply hate a head collar. 
Or let't talk body harnesses. Some dogs have a very clear change in gait when you put a harness on them. Some dogs are body sensitive and hate the feel of a harness. Same thing, just condition the dog, get him/her used to it. Again, no acceptance of the fact that some dogs just hate them.

On the other hand, there are some dogs who really don't mind wearing a prong collar, and are perfectly fine with the sensation of a quick prong correction. Same with ecollars.

We have to allow for the dog's opinion as best we can interpret it. When I see a dog totally shut down on a head collar who is then switched to a prong and is 100 times happier and more themselves, that's accounting for the dog's opinion is it not? Why would I persist in trying to get the dog to tolerate the head collar? Why not just use the prong for the short period needed for training or while the dog is having teenage stupids, and be done?

But instead we get so hung up on our own perceptions about a tool, often by people who have never seen the tool in use properly, and the dog's needs and opinions about the tool are ignored. That's not right.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2017)

And I still want to know what's up with the water balloons!


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

So e-collars are used in sports to presumably prevent the dog from making mistakes, or correct them when they do? It does really take the element of teamwork & fun away doesn't it? At least IMO anyway. You must be really taking it very seriously if your dog is not allowed to make mistakes.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> You must be really taking it very seriously if your dog is not allowed to make mistakes.


Unfortunately there will always be trophy hunters out there, thankfully they are a minority.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> People misuse all sorts of dog training tools .. headcollars, flat collars, leads, etc but does that mean they should be banned? Not IMO.
> 
> I do find it very odd that people have no experience or knowledge yet are so anti certain things .... personally I would rather find out things myself then pass judgement.
> 
> And the comparison to domestic violence .... REALLY???!!!! Just wow ....


There are lots of things in life we have no personal experience of yet we know they will hurt or we know they will cause distress or we feel empathy. You were the one who said they were used a lot in your IPO club and that some are used well and some not so well. I don't need to know anymore than that.

The comparison to domestic violence was as I think you well know not to say using a collar is akin to domestic violence but that we should educate from a non judgemental /non demonising position. Of course I wasn't saying using a collar is the same as domestic violence.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> No, that's a false analogy on many levels.
> Domestic violence is *violence*. A pinch collar sitting on a dog is not a violent act. And domestic violence has nothing to do with training an animal.
> Though I do find it incredibly ironic that I get flamed on this forum any time I speak out against hitting children (spanking/slapping/discipline, whatever you want to call it) by the same people who have a conniption over pinch collars.
> 
> ...


I have never flamed you for speaking out against hitting children - I have agreed with you.
I have never stated anyone should condition a dog better if it doesn't like a head collar or a body harness. If either distress/cause discomfort to a dog they should not be used.
I do not need to see the tool (shock or prong) in action to know it is cruel, just like I do not need to see CM in action personally to know he is a dick who should not be let near a living creature. 
Are you saying the use of these "tools" within a training class is acceptable and that its OK that whilst some are used well, some are not?


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2017)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Are you saying the use of these "tools" within a training class is acceptable and that its OK that whilst some are used well, some are not?


No, I'm not saying the use of any of these tools is acceptable. Nor am I saying their use is unacceptable.

I'm saying the dog gets to decide what is aversive and what isn't, not us. 
You just look at a prong and decide it's aversive, but it's not your opinion that should matter, it's the dog's.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> No, I'm not saying the use of any of these tools is acceptable. Nor am I saying their use is unacceptable.
> 
> I'm saying the dog gets to decide what is aversive and what isn't, not us.
> You just look at a prong and decide it's aversive, but it's not your opinion that should matter, it's the dog's.


So those people in the IPO club who are not using them so well are listening to the opinion of the dog are they?


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2017)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> So those people in the IPO club who are not using them so well are listening to the opinion of the dog are they?


I wouldn't know, I'm not in that IPO club.

I'm not advocating *for* the use of prongs or shock collars, I'm simply trying to point out that the issue is not so black and white, and that eschewing a tool based on zero knowledge and looks alone is not good practice.

The truth is, there are precious few circumstances that would sway me to condone the use of tools like an ecollar. But precious few does not equal none. I don't think it's wise, or useful to paint oneself in to a corner if you will.

My other issue is, if we're going to argue against the use of harsh tools, let's do it intelligently and honestly. 
Blanket statements about how horrible these tools are and only deluded or lazy owners would use them doesn't forward your argument at all. It just pisses people off and they tune you out. 
If however you approach the individual situation in an educated way, seek to understand the owner's needs, the dog's needs, and what is best in that particular situation, you may convince the owner that there is an even more effective option.

If this is really about helping dogs, then you have to approach the subject from a place of communication, not shutting someone down with hysterical cries of cruelty and should not own dogs. 
If this is about reveling in the moral high ground and righteous indignation, then carry on


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
Getting back to G3 dog-training - check out this video from the main page
Brutus - 10 month old Rottweiler - Residential Dog Training

.
.
Brutus is not a happy, confident dog in this clip; he's quite quashed, his tail is down, ears are pinched tight to his skull, head is lowered, commissure drawn back to resemble a letter-slot, tongue is RETRACTED so that only the 1st 1/4th protrudes as he pants [rather than an open-mouthed, easy smile with tongue hanging freely, which is what a relaxed dog does when overheated / in motion, & panting].
At 1:11 to 1:14, he's downright appeasing when the handler leaves him on a down/stay; CLOSES HIS MOUTH, drops head, look-away, licks lips, *ducks* his head, swallows nervously, licks lips again... all before the guy lays the leash down! :Jawdrop He may be 'well-trained', but he's scared spitless; if he was younger, he'd be wetting himself.
That was quite enuf of a sample for me.
.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
A snippet from the G3 home-page, QUOTE,
_"*2 weeks Residential Dog Training (14 days) - £1750.00 (£875/ week)*_
_Designed to address* just a few problems* such as recall, walking on the lead or jumping up. If you already have a dog that is well-behaved at home, but you just want that *security that your dog will listen to you in distractions. *_

_*4 weeks Residential Do**g Training (28 days) - £3500.00 (£875/ week)*
The most popular and recommended choice. _
_*Do you want a guaranteed* 100% off-lead recall in any situation?* *Impeccable lead walking in any distraction?* Our training opens up new possibilities of having a companion dog that you can rely on to have excellent behaviour in public. Other training schools cannot compare as we can train your dog with a high level of control in regular public situations and off-leash training. After your dog completes this course, you will be taught how to maintain their behaviour in the aim of very little need for further training or follow up sessions. Options can include resolving mild behavioural problems too. This is designed for people that want their dog to be educated to become a companion that will fit seamlessly into their daily lives. _
_*Our guarantee means, *by the unlikely event you need extra training lessons, they are free of charge with your closest trainer. *_

_Includes: Basic on-leash obedience training, learning to walk on a leash without pulling, automatic sit when stop whilst heeling, sit stay, down stay, place/ bed, off-lead recall._

_8 weeks Residential Dog Training (56 days) - £6800.00 (£850/week)_
_Want off lead heeling? More training with us means a better trained dog and the next step to an even more perfect companion. _
_Also suitable for modifying behavioural problems and rehabilitation; the training described above will be included as the foundation with the addition of the dog being prepared for a much more advanced and off-leash obedience in public. Includes: Automatic sitting when you stop, off-lead heeling, down (stay) in distractions, socialisation with other dogs and behaviour in public. Only dogs with suitable temperament can be accepted for off-leash training. Feel free to contact us to discuss more._

_*12 weeks Residential Dog Training* (56 days) - £9900.00 (£825/ week)_
_This training course is the highest, most advance level of training that we offer. It is ideal for *owners that want absolute control off-leash, anywhere and with anyone.* This is for owners that seek 'Complete Off-leash Control' or behavioural modification & extensive socialisation in the real world. This can also be for owners looking for a sport dog training and can be divided into several blocks of training."_
_========== END quote ==============_

I will point out that no-one in their right mind would "guarantee" 100% off-lead recall, nor "absolute off-leash control, WITH anyone, ANYwhere".
I can't hand the leash of a reactive dog to a novice handler, & expect that handler to know precisely how to manage that dog - nor put the onus on the dog to be "perfectly well behaved", as many perfectly normal canine behaviors are treated as major crimes by their owners, or are thought by the non-dog-owning public to be felonies.
.
How many times have YOU, Gentle Reader, heard an APO or a non-dog-owner announce, _"No dog should *ever* bite, under any circumstances." :Grumpy _Really?
Can U also reasonably demand that NO human being ever, ever raise their voice, cuss, swear, or stamp their feet in frustration? // Require that all humans love every other human being on the entire planet, without exception, & never ever ever argue, disagree, or criticize one another? --- Well, good luck with that.
.
U cannot "guarantee" dog behavior, any more than U can "guarantee" that the owner will keep up the training / consistent handling, once they take the dog home.
.
.
.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ouesi said:


> No, I'm not saying the use of any of these tools is acceptable. Nor am I saying their use is unacceptable.
> 
> I'm saying the dog gets to decide what is aversive and what isn't, not us.
> *You just look at a prong and decide it's aversive, but it's not your opinion that should matter, it's the dog's*.


This is exactly it ..... the amount of times I was told (by behaviourists) that head collars were not aversives even though Roxy was constantly pawing her face & looked so bloody miserable. In the end I chose to ignore them & use my common sense, she's not worn one since.

I think Blitz was talking about 'nagging'a dog & in my case that is exactly what I was doing (despite my best intentions), I honestly believe that a couple of lessons with a pinch collar (if it was either/or) would have resolved the (pulling) issue & not put Roxy under the constant stress of wearing the head collar. But I used it as I was told it was a 'kind' option ...... unfortunately Roxy did not agree


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Dogloverlou said:


> So e-collars are used in sports to presumably prevent the dog from making mistakes, or correct them when they do? It does really take the element of teamwork & fun away doesn't it? At least IMO anyway. You must be really taking it very seriously if your dog is not allowed to make mistakes.


Totally agree and IMO e collars and the like have no place in modern dog sports.

I've taught quite a number of WTs/IPO/security dogs over the years and when I've been approached I have always said that if their dogs arrive wearing an e collar they will be shown the gate.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
*edited to add:*
I am posting Ms Fenzi's various clips, her own & those of her students, in reply to those who claim broadly that U can't get good results or reliable training WITHOUT punishment.
Obviously, i do not agree. // Reliable recalls, solidly dependable police-K9s & military dogs, etc, have all been trained around the world by many ppl, in many languages, *without* using prong collars, shock-collars, or infinite-slip AKA choke collars.
It is & remains a CHOICE - not a necessity.
.
.
Denise Fenzi is only one of the many trainers & competitors in bite-sports who Do NOT Use shock-collars or prong-collars... or an infinite-slip AKA choke-chain or tube-nylon choke-collar.
However - she's a good place to start, given that she's a well-known competitor in the U-S, who also breeds dogs for bite-sports & working function.
.
Here's a U-Tube search - 
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Denise+Fenzi+++IPO+dogs
.
Do be aware that UTube's search function is just as cr*p as the one on PF-uk - but the vast majority of PAGE ONE is, indeed, Fenzi, or students at her academy with their own dogs.
The final entry at the bottom of page-1 is her channel, for further info. .
.
.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2017)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> Denise Fenzi is only one of the many trainers & competitors in bite-sports who Do NOT Use shock-collars or prong-collars... or an infinite-slip AKA choke-chain or tube-nylon choke-collar.
> However - she's a good place to start, given that she's a well-known competitor in the U-S, who also breeds dogs for bite-sports & working function.
> .
> ...


Denise Fenzi has a blog, a FB page, and her own youtube channel as well as numerous online courses and books. I've often linked her blogs, videos and articles here on this forum. She's certainly not hard to find...

That I know of though, she's not a breeder. Michael Ellis is, and they have often collaborated, as well as Forrest Micke, another trainer who eschews e-collars, prongs, and choke chains. They're all west coast peeps


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

ouesi said:


> The truth is, there are precious few circumstances that would sway me to condone the use of tools like an ecollar. But precious few does not equal none. I don't think it's wise


What about in the context of this thread, this subject, a trainer/training school which uses such methods as a matter of course? Earlier answers might well be different or at least have a different tone if the subject of the thread were different.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2017)

havoc said:


> What about in the context of this thread, this subject, a trainer/training school which uses such methods as a matter of course? Earlier answers might well be different or at least have a different tone if the subject of the thread were different.


Did you not read my responses to the OP on the first page?
First I asked what issues they were having with their dog - I offered to help instead of instantly criticizing them for considering an ecollar. When they responded I explained that an ecollar would not work for their issues and detailed why.
I then offered other options they could try.

The thread has since evolved with some people just wanting to argue for the sake or arguing and others wanting to revel in their moral superiority. Neither of which is helpful to any dogs.....


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2017)

leashedForLife said:


> *edited to add:*
> I am posting Ms Fenzi's various clips, her own & those of her students, in reply to those who claim broadly that U can't get good results or reliable training WITHOUT punishment.


Cool. 
Who is claiming that you can't get reliable results without punishment? I certainly have seen no such claim on this thread.

That said, it's important to note that no training happens without punishment - be it deliberate or unintentional. 
I don't know about you, but I'm not perfect. I can't tell you how many times I've missed a click that I should have clicked - which to a clicker savvy dog is indeed punishing. Times when I've withheld a reward too long attempting to free shape behaviors, notice my dog is getting frustrated and try to gauge if I should continue or back up. That's punishing to a dog.

I think a more useful conversation would be about the degree of punishment as opposed to the absence of it which is pretty much impossible. I thing we can all agree that while withholding a treat is negative punishment, and holding down the continuous buzz on the ecollar until the dog does the cued behavior is also negative punishment, there is a huge difference in *degree* of that negative punishment.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

ouesi said:


> The thread has since evolved with some people just wanting to argue for the sake or arguing and others wanting to revel in their moral superiority. Neither of which is helpful to any dogs.....


The thread is about whether those on this thread would recommend a training establishment which is in favour of using particular methods. That's a matter of opinion and we're all entitled to one. If people want to view those opinions about a commercial establishment personally then that's their issue. In that context I still stand by my assertion that it's a lazy method - yes it will bring in the money quickly so I could use other terms but they'd be no more complimentary.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2017)

havoc said:


> The thread is about whether those on this thread would recommend a training establishment which is in favour of using particular methods. That's a matter of opinion and we're all entitled to one. If people want to view those opinions about a commercial establishment personally then that's their issue. In that context I still stand by my assertion that it's a lazy method - yes it will bring in the money quickly so I could use other terms but they'd be no more complimentary.


The thread *was* about a training establishment. Then it became about the use of e-collars in general. I responded in both contexts. 
And yup, people post all sorts of opinions all the time.

I'm not really sure what your point is. Do you just want it clearly noted that you consider those who use e-collars lazy and other things which are not complimentary? Cool. Noted.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
also, perhaps i'm just a bit more paranoid than other PF-uk members, but i wouldn't be willing to give my dog to someone's keeping for "boarded training" that was already acknowledged to INCLUDE shock- & / or prong-collars.
Maybe i'm just untrusting - but given that i rode from Columbus, Ohio to Philthy, PA with a total stranger via a CraigsList ad when i needed a shared ride, i don't think i'm a super-paranoid person.
.
Still, i would not want to leave my dog to be trained using acknowledged aversives; just how well the trainer/s would apply those tools, or how well my dog would tolerate them, etc, would all be unknowns; the fallout could be serious & long-lasting. Def not worth the risk, IMO.
.
That's not to say i wouldn't leave my dog for boarded training - not at all. If i was laid up & my young dog / recent adoptee needed socialization, urgent B-mod, whatever, & a fellow trainer was willing to work with my dog while i'm sick or hurt, so long as that trainer was someone i trusted who used primarily pos-R / minimal neg-P, i'd be thrilled to have one less thing to worry about during my recovery. 
I can think of a dozen trainers offhand, folks i've known for years long-distance or in person, that i'd trust with my dog if i couldn't tackle the job ATM. Most of them are long-time USA-apdt members, but more important to me, they are Truly Dog-Friendly trainers. A few are also Aus-APDT members - Australia, unlike the USA version, does not permit prong collar, shock collar, or infinite-slip / choke collars as training or B-Mod tools.
.
It's sad that USA-apdt has so diluted their original "dog-friendly" mission that they can cheerfully accept Sit-Means-S*it shock-collar franchisees as full members.  The founder of SMS actually *encourages* his franchisees to join - as the APDT logo on their website & other promo materials makes them look "more professional", & for APOs who don't know the difference, it's easy to hornswoggle them into believing U are actually using REWARDING methods while using a shock-collar / prong / choke to *"correct" a dog, simply because when the dog doesn't make the same mistake, U verbally praise her or him. *Big F-ing reward there, slimeball. :Muted
.
.
.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Cool.
> Who is claiming that you can't get reliable results without punishment? I certainly have seen no such claim on this thread.
> 
> That said, it's important to note that no training happens without punishment - be it deliberate or unintentional.
> ...


Agree, that's why I don't some of the phrases that seem to be banded around regarding being only 'purely positive' .... purely positive what exactly .... & if they mean reinforcement (which they do!) then how, doesn't make sense..

As for Denise Fenzi, I think she's amazing & am attending a workshop with her in November as I have a handler place ..... am so excited!! Not sure why she was bought in to this as an example as alot of people know of her. Also again, not sure who was disputing that great things can't be achieved without the need for certain tools. A friend of mine who attends the same IPO club competed with her Giant Schnauzer in the 2016 ISPU World Championships (IPO) & she doesn't use pinches or electric .....although she is similar to my opinion in that for some dogs it may be an option& not necessarily a 'bad' thing for them.

Tbh the more I learn about dog training/behaviour the more I can see that is is never B&W. The trainer I see is all for reading/watching training videos, etc but he does try & get us to look at our own dogs, stop comparing to other people's & stop thinking that all the answers will be in a book when sometimes they are right in front of us .... I can be very guilty of that at times


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> Agree, that's why I don't some of the phrases that seem to be banded around regarding being only 'purely positive' .... purely positive what exactly .... & if they mean reinforcement (which they do!) then how, doesn't make sense..
> 
> As for Denise Fenzi, I think she's amazing & am attending a workshop with her in November as I have a handler place ..... am so excited!! Not sure why she was bought in to this as an example as alot of people know of her. Also again, not sure who was disputing that great things can't be achieved without the need for certain tools. A friend of mine who attends the same IPO club competed with her Giant Schnauzer in the 2016 ISPU World Championships (IPO) & she doesn't use pinches or electric .....although she is similar to my opinion in that for some dogs it may be an option& not necessarily a 'bad' thing for them.
> 
> Tbh the more I learn about dog training/behaviour the more I can see that is is never B&W. The trainer I see is all for reading/watching training videos, etc but he does try & get us to look at our own dogs, stop comparing to other people's & stop thinking that all the answers will be in a book when sometimes they are right in front of us .... I can be very guilty of that at times


I'm not understanding a lot of what has been brought in to this conversation to be honest. 
I'll just quote you earlier in the thread:


Cleo38 said:


> And I have seen lots of incredibly well trained dogs who have competed at high levels in WT or IPO who have never had electric or pinch collars on them ..... a great handler can work wonders!


So why the need for a specific post saying you can train to a high level without ecollars? Unless that poster has most of us on ignore perhaps? Or maybe just doesn't bother to read posts? 
IDK. It's just frustrating when what could be a productive conversation turns in to... well, this.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Unless that poster has most of us on ignore perhaps? Or maybe just doesn't bother to read posts?
> IDK.


From my experience they just ignore what doesn't fit with their own opinion...Their way or the highway


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

*Thelordofmerse*
_Also to dispel a lot of the rubbish being promulgated in these strings, an e-collar is a very effective 'training tool' if used correctly_

Yes but that makes them (ecollars) a commercial competitor to those wishing to financially exploit early learner pet owners by getting naive pet owners to spend countless days, weeks, months years of spending money on ineffective trainers who claim its kind to keep dogs prisoners if they have unreliable recalls with distractions, all these forever & a day commercial trainers earn a regular income from the same pet owners repeatedly giving them some kind of regular income.So, from what you say & offer empirical witness evidence, when the same pet owners from these '_never ending always paying_' '_tricks for treats_' lessons, suddenly tries one of these collars & gets a reliable recall in one or activations you know about then wham! the ineffective trainer looses some income!
Angela Critchley is the European sales manager for electronic collar manufacturers association uk & the annual UK sales figs she gave out early last year for e freedom collars was appx 5,000pa, all that money has been lost by the trick or treat 'kind' trainers.........hmmmm whats 2+2 together
From those I have read on here who turned to freedom collars from worthless training I only hear of the freedoms their dogs now have, no need to comment further.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
"*FREEDOM*" collars?! -- there's a laugh! :Hilarious
Congratulations to the marketing maven who came up with that one. // As for 'ineffective' reward training, Nimrod, here are a few videos.
.
8:15​ 


*Lotsa and Lotsa Llama Tricks*
Karen Pryor Clicker Training





10 years ago

65,821 views

Ever seen a llama play chess, help with the laundry, or fix an engine? Watch this entertaining video as clicker-trained llamas and ...
.
.
.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Legshand said:


> *Thelordofmerse*
> _Also to dispel a lot of the rubbish being promulgated in these strings, an e-collar is a very effective 'training tool' if used correctly_
> 
> Yes but that makes them (ecollars) a commercial competitor to those wishing to financially exploit early learner pet owners by getting naive pet owners to spend countless days, weeks, months years of spending money on ineffective trainers who claim its kind to keep dogs prisoners if they have unreliable recalls with distractions, all these forever & a day commercial trainers earn a regular income from the same pet owners repeatedly giving them some kind of regular income.So, from what you say & offer empirical witness evidence, when the same pet owners from these '_never ending always paying_' '_tricks for treats_' lessons, suddenly tries one of these collars & gets a reliable recall in one or activations you know about then wham! the ineffective trainer looses some income!
> ...


I've got a dog with unreliable recall, he is not a prisoner (he still gets to do his favourite thing "scenting" but on a long line rather than free range and swim to retrieve from water) nor do we spend money on ineffective trainers or any sort of trainers for that matter. We just keep him safe and do so without shocking the bejesus out of him and lining the pockets of e collar manufacturers.


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

I wrote something incorrectly, I wrote >''_UK sales figs she gave out early last year for e freedom collars was appx 5,000pa''<_
I meant 50,000 pa not , thats figs she gave out last year when asked.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.








.
*Clicker Training a Cheetah | How Intelligent Are Cats? | Interview With Enrichment Big Cat Trainer*
Dolph C. Volker
2 months ago - 7,697 views
.
.








.
*Amazing bunny tricks*
fuzzfarm
9 years ago - 787,613 views
We hope you enjoy our collection of clicker trained rabbits doing amazing tricks.
.
.
Feel free to explore a little more - AN INCREDIBLE NUMBER OF SPECIES have been trained to do all sorts of things, by all sorts of ppl, many of them complete amateurs, yet the results are astonishingly fluent, amazingly varied, & often, extremely convenient. // An elephant who lifts their own feet for sole & nail care, blows their 'nose' into a bag for Tb-testing, holds an ear out for a blood specimen drawn from the huge vein?...
Dolphins who cheerfully flip upside down in the water for an abdominal ultrasound? // Captive primates who extend an arm for blood specimens? // Horses who Enter A Wash Stall ON CUE? // Tigers who pose for full-body exams without sedation? // Hippos who open their mouths & hold them open for dental care?...
on & on & on, in incredible variety, for practical care of captive wild species, for fun with wild or domestic species, for *B-Mod of animals who've been severely abused or badly neglected, & are otherwise un-handleable.*
*.*
*Do tell me all about how a shock-collar can entice a 600# tiger to stand upright against a cyclone fence for her underside to be examined, or how a shock-collar can get an adult gorilla to offer their forearm for a blood specimen.  Include the links to videos, Nimrod, i can't wait to see 'em. // I hope U star in a few! *
.
Meanwhile, back in reality - 
even without a clicker or other marker, Pos-R techniques work quite well. // For Ur further information, I myself began specializing in B-Mod of dogs with behavior issues in 1985 - after many years of teaching cued behaviors, training pups & adults, & B-Mod together, i decided to skip "normal" dogs & work only with Dogs Who Have Issues.
.
I'm happy to report that everything from petty insane annoyances [nuisance barking, clawing the carpet, whining for food...] to major problem behaviors [dog:dog aggro, human-directed aggro, predatory behavior with multiple kills...] has been addressed WITHOUT a shock, a jerk on the collar, or a prong, choke, or other aversive tool - also, without such techniques as "pin the dog" a'la the Dawg Wrassler, helicoptering, hanging dogs by their collars to cut-off the airway, & similar confrontational or brute-force tactics.
.
Also, for clients who had serious problems to fix & minimal money to address them, i was happy to give them a 2-hour paid assessment, an e-mailed behavioral review of what i saw, a custom plan for their own dog's B-Mod process, & then refer them to *books* where they could find further help - with me on call, if they got stuck.
Clients whose dogs had bitten multiple ppl yet had very-limited incomes were happy to learn how they could DIY the process, & they were very successful - most got thru more than 4-mos of careful DS/CC, DeSensitization & Counter-Conditioning, with only a couple of e-mails or phone-calls, or 1 in-person session in addition to the intake session.
.
Just buying a shock-collar & putting it on the dog is not a 'cure' for problem behaviors, nor does it ensure reliable recalls, prompt compliance, or any other 'just push the button' EASE * OF * OPERATION. *Dogs aren't dishwashers, nor are they electronically operated; just like humans - or any other species! - in order to comply across a broad spectrum of contexts, they need to learn.*
.
.
.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2017)

Legshand said:


> From those I have read on here who turned to freedom collars from worthless training I only hear of the freedoms their dogs now have, no need to comment further.


Okay, first off, if the training was worthless, all it takes is effective training to get a good recall. In fact I would argue that those dogs for whom e-collar training worked, would have learned a recall just as well if not better with effective training sans e-collar.

And what about when the ecollar doesn't work?
Because that happens too. A lot. Teaching a dog to recall using an e-collar is not foolproof or easy for that matter. There are plenty of dogs out there who will risk the shock of the collar for the reward of the chase or hunt. Then what? Now you still have a dog who still doesn't recall reliably, and on top of that, you've eroded the relationship making it even harder to remedy the original issue.

Just in general though, I would argue that behaviors taught with positive reinforcement are stronger and more reliable than behaviors taught with negative reinforcement - which is the only way to teach a recall with an e-collar.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Okay, first off, if the training was worthless, all it takes is effective training to get a good recall. In fact I would argue that those dogs for whom e-collar training worked, would have learned a recall just as well if not better with effective training sans e-collar.
> 
> And what about when the ecollar doesn't work?
> Because that happens too. A lot. Teaching a dog to recall using an e-collar is not foolproof or easy for that matter. There are plenty of dogs out there who will risk the shock of the collar for the reward of the chase or hunt. Then what? Now you still have a dog who still doesn't recall reliably, and on top of that, you've eroded the relationship making it even harder to remedy the original issue.
> ...


I know this is probably a 'depends' answer but do you think for some people they have almost 'missed the boat' during a learning phase with their dog (especially when they have had the dog from a puppy) when they suddenly realise they do not have a good recall? Is this something that at times, you will never get to grips with?

Or is it more that the dog has developed a bad habit that is so rewarding that they do not have the skills to manage this (& I count myself in this with Roxy & her chasing of deer)?

With Archer it has been so easy as he is so focussed on me, always has been & is not interested at all in anything else (except once he was tempted by a sprinkler system over the local park!), & has always been offlead since he was tiny. I honestly think with Roxy that the reward & the thrill of chasing deer overides everything & I do not ever see her having the same focus as Archer. Even now when we go along a section of river bank where she b*ggered off chasing deer (over 3 yrs ago now) she gets very excited as am sure she remembers having the best time ever .... whilst I remember that day as being in flood of tears crying thinking I had lost her forever


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2017)

Legshand said:


> *Thelordofmerse*
> _Also to dispel a lot of the rubbish being promulgated in these strings, an e-collar is a very effective 'training tool' if used correctly_
> 
> Yes but that makes them (ecollars) a commercial competitor to those wishing to financially exploit early learner pet owners by getting naive pet owners to spend countless days, weeks, months years of spending money on ineffective trainers who claim its kind to keep dogs prisoners if they have unreliable recalls with distractions, all these forever & a day commercial trainers earn a regular income from the same pet owners repeatedly giving them some kind of regular income.So, from what you say & offer empirical witness evidence, when the same pet owners from these '_never ending always paying_' '_tricks for treats_' lessons, suddenly tries one of these collars & gets a reliable recall in one or activations you know about then wham! the ineffective trainer looses some income!
> ...


I guesse you love to give dogs painful electric shocks. Put on one yourself then you'll see how much they hurt. Great way to train your dog to fear the collar so much he or she runs off to try and get away from the pain of e collar that the sicko owners and trainers make dogs wear just so they can cause the dog pain.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

For me it is simple.

Consider this.

Where dogs are used to SAVE LIVES none of their training involves the use of e-collars etc.

Nobody trains a dog to identify IED in the Middle East using e collars.

Nobody trains a dog to rescue people from avalanches, earthquakes etc using e collars

Nobody trains a dog to identify cancer, blood sugar drop, impending seizure using e collars

Nobody trains an Assistance dog (mobility, hearing, blind)using e collars

Imagine, if all these things can be trained without the need of such products and are EXTREMELY reliable (they have to be) why on earth would one use one for pet training.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

danielled said:


> I guesse you love to give dogs painful electric shocks. *Put on one yourself then* you'll see how much they hurt. Great way to train your dog to fear the collar so much he or she runs off to try and get away from the pain of e collar that the sicko owners and trainers make dogs wear just so they can cause the dog pain.


I did exactly this when I considered using one on my dog to try & curb her love of chasing wildlife


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

smokeybear said:


> For me it is simple.
> 
> Consider this.
> 
> ...


Absolutely this. Brilliant answer.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Cleo38 said:


> I know this is probably a 'depends' answer but do you think for some people they have almost 'missed the boat' during a learning phase with their dog


I don't think the boat is ever missed. It may appear easier to train a puppy or young dog but I don't believe there's a cutoff point after which it's hopeless. I do believe some owners are less patient, want a quicker fix, are honestly convinced their dog can't be trained in certain behaviours. I don't think they can be blamed entirely either. The internet is full of edited youtube clips which give the impression it takes somewhere between four and thirty minutes for a miracle. On tv it can take up to an hour. The reality is that those things we insist upon every single time work with every dog. The obvious example is stopping and waiting to cross a road - moving into the path of traffic can't ever be allowed so every owner has a zero tolerance approach. If we all applied that same level of attention to everything we'd all have much better trained dogs but we don't. Sometimes we can't bothered or we don't mind enough and we let something go. The more we do so the less it seems the dog will ever learn. If someone says they've tried to stop their dog pulling on the lead (or whatever) that means they've stopped trying. That doesn't mean they've missed a window of opportunity, it means they should keep going rather than giving up too soon.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> I did exactly this when I considered using one on my dog to try & curb her love of chasing wildlife


Ouch I bet it hurt.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> I know this is probably a 'depends' answer but do you think for some people they have almost 'missed the boat' during a learning phase with their dog (especially when they have had the dog from a puppy) when they suddenly realise they do not have a good recall? Is this something that at times, you will never get to grips with?
> 
> Or is it more that the dog has developed a bad habit that is so rewarding that they do not have the skills to manage this (& I count myself in this with Roxy & her chasing of deer)?
> 
> With Archer it has been so easy as he is so focussed on me, always has been & is not interested at all in anything else (except once he was tempted by a sprinkler system over the local park!), & has always been offlead since he was tiny. I honestly think with Roxy that the reward & the thrill of chasing deer overides everything & I do not ever see her having the same focus as Archer. Even now when we go along a section of river bank where she b*ggered off chasing deer (over 3 yrs ago now) she gets very excited as am sure she remembers having the best time ever .... whilst I remember that day as being in flood of tears crying thinking I had lost her forever


I don't really know.
I do think recall is a thousand times easier when you start when they're a puppy, also really helps to have dogs who already recall influencing that young puppy.

But then I also have plenty of dogs who learned a pretty good recall as adults. But it wasn't easy. And we have the facilities, the safe spaces to practice in, as well as some really good trainers who think outside the box.

Predatory chasing is hugely rewarding - it has to be, a predator who is easily discouraged would quickly starve to death. And I think part of this is key. Predatory chasing can be highly rewarding, and rewarded behaviors will always be stronger than punished behaviors are weak. IOW you won't ever be able to punish out the chasing in a dog who really enjoys it.

With Bates, we made a lot of progress, but what finally solidified his recall was putting chasing on cue. I literally found good opportunities to chase and encouraged him to do so, then rewarded him for complying with the cue. It seems SO counter intuitive, but for him, it worked - really well. There are still times where he will stand next to me screaming with frustration because I won't give him the go ahead, and this is without me even putting a hand on him or even attaching him to a leash, and other times I'll send him on a chase and call him back and I get muzzle punched for my troubles, but even through his frustration he will comply.

It's weird. I don't fully understand the why and how around putting chasing on cue working so well, I just know that for Bates it was the key. I think premack has something to do with it, which is another concept that I don't fully understand, but my rudimentary understanding is that I fought fire with fire. Basically nothing competes with the thrill of a live chase, so I had to use the thrill of a live chase as his reward.

So long story short, yeah, I don't know


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2017)

smokeybear said:


> For me it is simple.
> 
> Consider this.
> 
> ...


Sadly there are people on this side of the pond who do use e-collars (via R-) to teach detection work. 
Completely unsurprisingly, none of their dogs are as reliable as those taught with R+ and no one who does this work legitimately will touch dogs like this with a ten foot pole. But there are people out there who do it just to prove that it can be done (and sell more e-collars). The results are no where as good though, and also unsurprisingly they only manage it with very high drive breeds.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

havoc said:


> I don't think the boat is ever missed. It may appear easier to train a puppy or young dog but I don't believe there's a cutoff point after which it's hopeless. I do believe some owners are less patient, want a quicker fix, are honestly convinced their dog can't be trained in certain behaviours. I don't think they can be blamed entirely either. The internet is full of edited youtube clips which give the impression it takes somewhere between four and thirty minutes for a miracle. On tv it can take up to an hour. The reality is that those things we insist upon every single time work with every dog. The obvious example is stopping and waiting to cross a road - moving into the path of traffic can't ever be allowed so every owner has a zero tolerance approach. If we all applied that same level of attention to everything we'd all have much better trained dogs but we don't. Sometimes we can't bothered or we don't mind enough and we let something go. The more we do so the less it seems the dog will ever learn. If someone says they've tried to stop their dog pulling on the lead (or whatever) that means they've stopped trying. That doesn't mean they've missed a window of opportunity, it means they should keep going rather than giving up too soon.


I disagree I think there are some dogs which have a very long history of being reinforced for not recalling eg they have managed to catch and kill things; some dogs are unlikely to have reliable recalls at all times which is why the breed specialists do not recommend they are let off lead; there are also many rehomed street dogs particularly from abroad whose overriding mission is to escape, anything and anybody.

There are also a few dogs for which nothing an owner can provide will override their hunting and chasing instincts; fortunately these are very few and far between.

Many people do not have access to safe areas in which to train this or a good enough trainer.

I can think of at least one dog offhand which I recommended never to be let off lead as IMHO it was never going to come back on cue.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

havoc said:


> I don't think the boat is ever missed. It may appear easier to train a puppy or young dog but I don't believe there's a cutoff point after which it's hopeless. I do believe some owners are less patient, want a quicker fix, are honestly convinced their dog can't be trained in certain behaviours. I don't think they can be blamed entirely either. The internet is full of edited youtube clips which give the impression it takes somewhere between four and thirty minutes for a miracle. On tv it can take up to an hour. The reality is that those things we insist upon every single time work with every dog. The obvious example is stopping and waiting to cross a road - moving into the path of traffic can't ever be allowed so every owner has a zero tolerance approach. If we all applied that same level of attention to everything we'd all have much better trained dogs but we don't. Sometimes we can't bothered or we don't mind enough and we let something go. The more we do so the less it seems the dog will ever learn. If someone says they've tried to stop their dog pulling on the lead (or whatever) that means they've stopped trying. That doesn't mean they've missed a window of opportunity, it means they should keep going rather than giving up too soon.


In some ways I disagree, if that were the case then any competent handler would have sound, reliable dogs (am only talking about chasing her as that's what I struggled about & considered an ecollar for) who didn't chase .... but they don't. I spent all my time training/playing walking my dogs .... but then It depends on how effective the training is, how many times the dog has been allowed to self reward (& chasing is HUGELY rewarding) & being able to work in an environment where you can practise & not let the dog continue with unwanted behaviors .... unfortunately where I live the environment was a big problem, I obviously wasn't the best trainer & she had practised chasing so knew just how much fun this was ... especially the deer who would run for miles 

I did make lots of mistakes & I have learnt alot but I also know people far more competent that me who struggle with this particular behaviour



danielled said:


> Ouch I bet it hurt.


 Not really but then just because something isn't always painful doesn't mean it isn't uncomfortable ... which they are



ouesi said:


> I don't really know.
> I do think recall is a thousand times easier when you start when they're a puppy, also really helps to have dogs who already recall influencing that young puppy.
> 
> But then I also have plenty of dogs who learned a pretty good recall as adults. But it wasn't easy. And we have the facilities, the safe spaces to practice in, as well as some really good trainers who think outside the box.
> ...


Yes, it does make sense. I looked at the premack principle & watched various clips but didn't feel I had enough control. Now, it's management, she will never be 'cured' as such. However, she's on on a long line in certain environments, most days she's running round off lead but I manage her better. No going off too far ahead, she has learnt to wait & I play alot more games with her if i feel her attentions is going elsewhere ...... it's so much more relaxing being out with her now than having hours of worrying she would be b*ggering off somewhere


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> In some ways I disagree, if that were the case then any competent handler would have sound, reliable dogs (am only talking about chasing her as that's what I struggled about & considered an ecollar for) who didn't chase .... but they don't. I spent all my time training/playing walking my dogs .... but then It depends on how effective the training is, how many times the dog has been allowed to self reward (& chasing is HUGELY rewarding) & being able to work in an environment where you can practise & not let the dog continue with unwanted behaviors .... unfortunately where I live the environment was a big problem, I obviously wasn't the best trainer & she had practised chasing so knew just how much fun this was ... especially the deer who would run for miles
> 
> I did make lots of mistakes & I have learnt alot but I also know people far more competent that me who struggle with this particular behaviour
> 
> ...


Depends what setting you have it on. One setting I believe just makes it vibrate or something with no shock given but obviously won't be comfortable. The bark lords other favourite cruel collar though you know the one that pinches.


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

Smokeybear
_Imagine, if all these things can be trained without the need of such products and are EXTREMELY reliable (they have to be) why on earth would one use one for pet training.

So_


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Cleo38 said:


> In some ways I disagree, if that were the case then any competent handler would have sound, reliable dogs (am only talking about chasing


I hadn't realised it was only about chasing. I totally agree with both you and SB that there can be a point of no return with that particular behaviour, at least for the average owner with some dogs.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

havoc said:


> I hadn't realised it was only about chasing. I totally agree with both you and SB that there can be a point of no return with that particular behaviour, at least for the average owner with some dogs.


For me I was only speaking about this one particular issue as & my experience (or not in the end) of ecollars .

For obedience I really don't get it at all .....


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2017)

Legshand said:


> Smokeybear
> _Imagine, if all these things can be trained without the need of such products and are EXTREMELY reliable (they have to be) why on earth would one use one for pet training.
> 
> So_


Believe it or not they can. They are cruel tools and not comfortable, anybody like Cesaer Millan who is all hail e collars all hail anything that can hurt a dog and is uncomfortable for dogs seriously needs some facts drilling into them. Sickos use e collars and prong collars, I'm no sicko. Positive reward based training is the way to go.


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

Smokeybear....._Where dogs are used to SAVE LIVES none of their training involves the use of e-collars etc.
Nobody trains a dog to identify IED in the Middle East using e collars._

As I understand it we are supposed to be talking about companion dogs owned by people such as me who are considered a normal part of the dog owning population in the UK & living in the real world, not a numerically insignificant minority group who wander off to the Cairngorms or Mt Kilimanjaro for their working week and await disaster after disaster. Just so you understand, the vid below is representative of the sort of dogs pet dog owners UK have


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2017)

Legshand said:


> Smokeybear....._Where dogs are used to SAVE LIVES none of their training involves the use of e-collars etc.
> Nobody trains a dog to identify IED in the Middle East using e collars._
> 
> As I understand it we are supposed to be talking about companion dogs owned by people such as me who are considered a normal part of the dog owning population in the UK & living in the real world, not a numerically insignificant minority group who wander off to the Cairngorms or Mt Kilimanjaro for their working week and await disaster after disaster. Just so you understand, the vid below is representative of the sort of dogs pet dog owners UK have


Lol so according to you we on pf all have out of control dogs who don't recall because we don't give them electric shocks. Well wrong again. My dog got out into the back garden this morning with a fence panel missing he unexpectedly ran out and I called him Buddy come and he ran straight back in, guesse what no evil e collars.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Legshand said:


> . Just so you understand, the vid below is representative of the sort of dogs pet dog owners UK have


Where on earth do you live?
In my part of the UK for the most part dogs are under control, either by voice or attached to a leash.
Yeah OK there are a few that leave their dogs to run riot, but these are in the minority and are pretty predictable as to where they will be and what time of year they are out, and NONE of them should be in charge of an ecollar remote!


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2017)

danielled said:


> Ouch I bet it hurt.


No, actually, it doesn't.
Modern e-collars have multiple settings. Some settings hurt, some settings are so low you might not even feel it.

E-collars are mainly used in two ways. Either as punishment, a deterrent. They are also used as negative reinforcement. Where the "reward" is the stim of the e-collar stops. Also called escape/avoidance training. In both cases the e-collar has to be uncomfortable/unpleasant enough to the dog that he/she will be motivated to avoid that sensation.

That said, I have a friend who's great dane is deaf and blind. They have done amazing things with him, teaching him touch cues, and stomping on the floor so he can sense the vibrations through his feet. It's amazing. Another tool they use is an e-collar set on a minuscule setting. They tried the vibration setting, and he hated it, but the low "stim" setting doesn't bother him and he finds comfort in that additional cue and connection to his handlers.

Another friend has a deaf pitbull, and she too found that he hated the vibration setting but is perfectly happy with the low stim setting which she uses for him to be able to be off leash in safe areas. 
There are also plenty of deaf dogs who are fine off-leash in safe areas because they have such a strong check in (deafies tend to be really good about checking in), so it's not a requirement, but it is a viable tool for a lot of deaf dogs.

And again that goes back to the dog gets to decide what is aversive, not the handler. A lot of dogs hate the vibration but are perfectly okay with low level stims. Insisting a dog deal with the vibration because it's not "aversive" is unfair to the dog.



danielled said:


> Sickos use e collars and prong collars,


Really Danielle? 
This is the sort of thing that is so unproductive. 
So my friend who has dedicated her life to great dane rescue, just got another puppy mill closed down, donates hundreds of hours and money to improving the lives of dogs, has a house full of rescue danes with special needs, is a sicko? Okay then.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2017)

Legshand said:


> Smokeybear....._Where dogs are used to SAVE LIVES none of their training involves the use of e-collars etc.
> Nobody trains a dog to identify IED in the Middle East using e collars._
> 
> As I understand it we are supposed to be talking about companion dogs owned by people such as me who are considered a normal part of the dog owning population in the UK & living in the real world, not a numerically insignificant minority group who wander off to the Cairngorms or Mt Kilimanjaro for their working week and await disaster after disaster. Just so you understand, the vid below is representative of the sort of dogs pet dog owners UK have


Sorry, not gonna watch a 30 minute badly filmed video. Do you have a quick synopsis?

Okay, let's talk companion dogs then. 
A gal I train with was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes 5 years ago. She successfully trained her pet dog (heinz 57 mutt) to alert to low blood sugar levels. She worked with some stellar trainers, but the training was basically up to her. Her dog has been working as her SD for 3 years now. Nothing but rewards based training. And no, not R- either.
Last week she was at Mass and her dog alerted to the gentleman in the pew behind her. He was right too, his blood sugar was dropping fast. He had never been trained on anyone else's scent but his owner's. Yet he knew to alert. Amazing.

I've said it over and over on this thread. Rewarded behaviors are always more reliable than punished behaviors are weak. This dog had been rewarded heavily for alerting to low blood sugar, you don't get that level of reliability with negative reinforcement. You just don't.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2017)

StormyThai said:


> Where on earth do you live?
> In my part of the UK for the most part dogs are under control, either by voice or attached to a leash.
> Yeah OK there are a few that leave their dogs to run riot, but these are in the minority and are pretty predictable as to where they will be and what time of year they are out, and NONE of them should be in charge of an ecollar remote!


Most round here are under control too.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
*self-rewarding behaviors *are more difficult to reduce, re-direct, or extinguish.
.
Those include the infamous "escape the garden / yard / go out the door...", chasing [livestock, bicyclists, passing cars..], barking, etc.
.
However, that doesn't meant such behaviors CANNOT be addressed without using an aversive - it just makes the process more difficult. Given that *Sit Means S*it *shock-collar franchisees are given NO OTHER EXPLANATION OR METHOD to train any behavior, they use them to teach an 8-WO pup to "sit" - which is depressingly pathetic.
 As well as outrageous -  zapping a baby to teach her or him to change position?! - how completely ignorant.
.
.
.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2017)

leashedForLife said:


> However, that doesn't meant such behaviors CANNOT be addressed without using an aversive - it just makes the process more difficult.


No, it's not *more* difficult to address issues without using aversive techniques. 
As I've already explained multiple times on this thread, self rewarding behaviors are often so rewarding that no aversive is going to touch them. 
Just like we humans will bite in to that pizza that we know is too hot and is going burn the roof of our mouth, dogs "forget" the punishment because the reward is worth it.

I would say that dealing with self rewarding behaviors is difficult, yes. But it's not more difficult to address them without using aversives. It's certainly more effective to address them without using aversives. 
As the example of my own dog, putting chasing on cue and using the reward of a chase to cure his chasing worked really well. I am quite sure an ecollar would not have worked on him. He's just not a dog who is motivated by the avoidance of pain. I wish he were for his own safety, but he's just not.


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

ouesi said:


> No, it's not *more* difficult to address issues without using aversive techniques.


Well Smokeybear does not seem to think so, he recommends starving the dog for 3 days at a time to get a recall (just one recall) of course thats aversive, the dog is trying to avoid hunger pains & biological deterioration of its system, see smokeybears post....


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

These odd videos being posted is starting to remind me of a member from a while back who always seemed to come out when ecollars were mentioned .......


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

danielled said:


> Believe it or not they can. They are cruel tools and not comfortable, anybody like Cesaer Millan who is all hail e collars all hail anything that can hurt a dog and is uncomfortable for dogs seriously needs some facts drilling into them. Sickos use e collars and prong collars, I'm no sicko. Positive reward based training is the way to go.


I get where you're coming from and your passion, but comments like this IMO are extreme & give ammo to the 'sickos' you talk of for thinking all positive reward based trainers are nothing but 'cookie pushers' who are OTT. There are always extreme opinions on both sides of this type of discussion, neither do themselves any favours.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2017)

Legshand said:


> Well Smokeybear does not seem to think so, he recommends starving the dog for 3 days at a time to get a recall (just one recall) of course thats aversive, the dog is trying to avoid hunger pains & biological deterioration of its system, see smokeybears post....


Yeah, that's way too tiny for me to even read, let alone figure out context.



Cleo38 said:


> These odd videos being posted is starting to remind me of a member from a while back who always seemed to come out when ecollars were mentioned .......


Yep, that'd be sleepybones. I see he still doesn't understand a thing about training dogs...
Hey sleepy, how's your dobie bitch? Still picking fights with random dogs because you don't have any control over her?


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Yeah, that's way too tiny for me to even read, let alone figure out context.


I enlarged it to fit the screen


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2017)

Dogloverlou said:


> I enlarged it to fit the screen


Is it worth watching? 
The other video was friggin' 27 minutes of shaky camera work as far as I could tell. No way am I watching that.


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

_I enlarged it to fit the screen_

Yes just double click any youtube vid screen


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2017)

Legshand said:


> _I enlarged it to fit the screen_
> 
> Yes just double click any youtube vid screen


Oh look you quote just like sleepybones too. 
Still can't figure out the quote function either huh?


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

Legshand said:


> _I enlarged it to fit the screen_
> 
> Yes just double click any youtube vid screen


_Is it worth watching? 
The other video was friggin' 27 minutes of shaky camera work as far as I could tell. No way am I watching that_.

Your watching the wrong vid, its nowhere near that length, its a post on a forum not a transcript of magna carta


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2017)

Legshand said:


> _Is it worth watching?
> The other video was friggin' 27 minutes of shaky camera work as far as I could tell. No way am I watching that_.
> 
> Your watching the wrong vid, its nowhere near that length, its a post on a forum not a transcript of magna carta


You made a video out of a forum post? Okay that's just weird.


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

_Still can't figure out the quote function either huh?_

Sounds like you will need to learn how to watch a youtube vid if thats the case.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Is it worth watching?
> The other video was friggin' 27 minutes of shaky camera work as far as I could tell. No way am I watching that.


Not really, no.

Didn't see the other vid. No way am I sitting through 27 minutes either!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Wonder if we'll get the one about how the APDT 'killed' a dog again....


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> Wonder if we'll get the one about how the APDT 'killed' a dog again....


I'm so torn, part of me is nostalgic to see sleepy's return, the other part of me wants to report him - wasn't he permanently banned?

But his explanations of reinforcement training and total confusion over terminology was so entertaining!


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

_But his explanations of reinforcement training and total confusion over terminology was so entertaining!_

Well I would like to know if you think that starving a dog for 3 days is going to gradually reinforce its recall for food, as pointed out in the video header that works out at 9 meals per month, seems to me that if the dogs still fit enough it would try & run after a months starvation, all being well with it, what do you think Ouesi?


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2017)

Legshand said:


> _But his explanations of reinforcement training and total confusion over terminology was so entertaining!_
> 
> Well I would like to know if you think that starving a dog for 3 days is going to gradually reinforce its recall for food, as pointed out in the video header that works out at 9 meals per month, seems to me that if the dogs still fit enough it would try & run after a months starvation, all being well with it, what do you think Ouesi?


Well, if you had read any of my posts, you would know that food was not how I reinforced recall with my more difficult dog. But that doesn't fit in to your agenda here does it?

And no, I would not starve any dog in the name of training. 
However, withholding a meal is not starving a dog. Feeding a dog all their food allocation in the way of training is not starving a dog. Making a dog work for food is not starving a dog...


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

Confirmation bias?

A video with various footage showing out of control dogs - chasing deer, chasing and attacking sheep, attacking a herd of cattle, barking at a horse and rider, and dogs attacking other dogs. Not pleasant viewing but hardly a true representation of your average UK pet owner...  Are you proposing an e-collar would help in those situations? Uneducated owners and aversive training... recipe for disaster IMO.

Another video showing a forum post from 2009! Eh? It isn't even about training recall... it is about building drive for a ball by using food.

Looked at another video on the same youtube channel... 





Jeez.... talk about having an agenda. If you aren't a fan of positive reinforcement training then fair enough, you're entitled to your own opinion but if you are '"always paying" your dog with food for behaviours then you aren't doing it right.

Don't blame the techniques for your own incompetence.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Legshand:

Well Smokeybear does not seem to think so, he recommends* starving the dog for 3 days at a time* to get a recall (just one recall)

/QUOTE
.
.
Do us all a huge favor, LegsB®ain, & FILE * A * FORMAL * COMPLAINT with the *Royal Soc For the Protection of Animals about this [claimed] practice.*
* Thanks in advance.*
.
.
If the RSPCA then upholds Ur claim & prosecutes the offense, then i'll believe it exists. // Otherwise? - I don't believe U. End statement.
I do not believe it of the APDT-uk, nor do i specifically believe it is true as alleged of SmokeyBear.
.
FYI, as U've new to PF-uk, I've been using pos-R since the early-70s & haven't used *aversives* since approx 1975 - 
*aversives are here *DEFINED *by me as* 'tools designed to deliver aversive stimuli, & / or tools re-imagined to deliver aversive stimuli which cause discomfort, startle, intimidate, frighten, or elsewise coerce a non-human to either *perform a wanted behavior *[ex, use of neg-R via choke, prong, or shock to make a dog walk on leash w/o pulling] *or **NOT perform an **un**-wanted behavior *[ex, water-balloons re-imagined as dog-training devices & thrown at a dog who is barking while outside in the fenced garden AKA yard].
.
.
I knew U'd want a definition, so i gave U one gratis, in advance of request. :Happy U're welcome.
.
.
.


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

_Uneducated owners and aversive training... recipe for disaster IMO._

Aversives are the stimuli we learn to avoid, "Uneducated owners" and "educated" are using aversive behaviours during all waking hours, I hope your not one of those idiots when your driving who ignore the red aversive light


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2017)

Legshand said:


> _Uneducated owners and aversive training... recipe for disaster IMO._
> 
> Aversives are the stimuli we learn to avoid, "Uneducated owners" and "educated" are using aversive behaviours during all waking hours, I hope your not one of those idiots when your driving who ignore the red aversive light


Red lights are not an aversive stimulus. They're a cue to stop. 
Still confused on terminology I see.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Legshand said:


> _Uneducated owners and aversive training... recipe for disaster IMO._
> 
> Aversives are the stimuli we learn to avoid, "Uneducated owners" and "educated" are using aversive behaviours during all waking hours, I hope your not one of those idiots when your driving who ignore the red aversive light


If you're trying to prove a point, you lost it a long time ago.


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

_Red lights are not an aversive stimulus. They're a cue to stop_.

You are right if you mean reaching up and touching physicaly touching the light, but the cue they give is that they are intended to remove is the recipients behaviour of driving past them,


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

If you're trying to prove a point, you lost it a long time ago

Sorry if you find the post to difficult for you


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Legshand said:


> If you're trying to prove a point, you lost it a long time ago
> 
> Sorry if you find the post to difficult for you


I don't.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Legshand said:


> _Red lights are not an aversive stimulus. They're a cue to stop_.
> 
> You are right if you mean reaching up and touching physicaly touching the light, but the cue they give is that they are intended to remove is the recipients behaviour of driving past them,


I don't think that word means what you think it means...


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2017)

Sweety said:


> If you're trying to prove a point, you lost it a long time ago.


Can't lose something you never had  



ShibaPup said:


> Confirmation bias?
> 
> A video with various footage showing out of control dogs - chasing deer, chasing and attacking sheep, attacking a herd of cattle, barking at a horse and rider, and dogs attacking other dogs. Not pleasant viewing but hardly a true representation of your average UK pet owner...  Are you proposing an e-collar would help in those situations? Uneducated owners and aversive training... recipe for disaster IMO.
> 
> ...


Good grief @Legshand (aka sleepybones) does that poor woman know you're videotaping her? Didn't you learn the last time?
Yes, @ShibaPup definite confirmation bias and just plain old huge confusion and lack of understanding of behavioral science. Stick around it will get good here in a bit 



Legshand said:


> _Red lights are not an aversive stimulus. They're a cue to stop_.
> 
> You are right if you mean reaching up and touching physicaly touching the light, but the cue they give is that they are intended to remove is the recipients behaviour of driving past them,


Confused again. But keep trying, it's entertaining. 
Red lights are a cue to stop. Nothing more complicated than that. 
Aversive is a stimulus the subject will work to avoid. They're not cues.


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

_Red lights are a cue to stop. Nothing more complicated than that. _
Yes correct.
_
Aversive is a stimulus the subject will work to avoid._

Yes, here in UK red lights are aversive signals to traffic to 'avoid' the behaviour of driving past them, nothing complicated about it, 'aversive stimuli' trigger avoidance behaviour, stopping 'avoids' the behaviour of driving through the red light, the car driver worked to avoid driving through the lights, nothing complicated about, its standard avoidance behaviour


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

No you dim wit...

Here in the UK we stop at a red light (the cue) so we can avoid smashing into a pedestrian or another car (aversive)

-throws hands up and wanders off muttering under breath-


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2017)

Legshand said:


> _Red lights are a cue to stop. Nothing more complicated than that. _
> Yes correct.
> _
> Aversive is a stimulus the subject will work to avoid._
> ...


Nope. Red lights are a signal to stop. The criteria is to drive up to the line painted on the road and stop, or the car nearest to you in line, not stop right when you see the light. Thus there is no avoidance of continuing to drive. It is a cue to stop, not an aversive.


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

_It is a cue to stop, not an aversive_.

An aversive is *any* stimulus the individual organism works to avoid, the human organisms behviour (action) is >*driving forwards*, if he or she takes notice of the signal to stop then they have 'avoided' (stopped) the behaviour of >*driving forwards*


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Legshand said:


> _Red lights are a cue to stop. Nothing more complicated than that. _
> Yes correct.
> _
> Aversive is a stimulus the subject will work to avoid._
> ...


Nope.

We aren't required to avoid going through a red light.

We're told that it's illegal to pass a red light and we risk a whopping fine if we do.

It's not an aversive - it's an order.


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

Legshand said:


> _It is a cue to stop, not an aversive_.
> 
> An aversive is *any* stimulus the individual organism works to avoid, the human organisms behviour (action) is >*driving forwards*, if he or she takes notice of the signal to stop then they have 'avoided' (stopped) the behaviour of >*driving forwards*


:Facepalm

Oh dear... I think the posts are too difficult for you.

You don't avoid red lights! They are a cue to stop.

Rain can be an aversive - y'know people will avoid going outside in it.

Just in case you do wish to open your mind and educate yourself http://www.clickertraining.com/library


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2017)

ShibaPup said:


> :Facepalm
> 
> Oh dear....


I told you it would get good


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

_It's not an aversive - it's an order._

Aversives are *any stimulus we work to avoid, *the red light'order' is an order to avoid a specific behaviour, the vast majority of drivers avoid the behaviour of driving through/past it, to those who do not stop to avoid driving through (some dont) it is not an aversive stimulus to those individuals.


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

_Just in case you do wish to open your mind and educate yourself http://www.clickertraining.com/library_

Clickers have been in use as a learning aid for many decades, not just with dogs but with numerous animals,one of the e-collars had a clicker sound at one point, skinner mentions using them in a 1951 paper, clicker pet dog owner trainers used them as a selling point, the US 101st airborne used them for ID in an airborne lading in WW, they were toys some decades ago.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2017)

Legshand said:


> _It's not an aversive - it's an order._
> 
> Aversives are *any stimulus we work to avoid, *the red light'order' is an order to avoid a specific behaviour, the vast majority of drivers avoid the behaviour of driving through/past it, to those who do not stop to avoid driving through (some dont) it is not an aversive stimulus to those individuals.


Dude, you're so confused about the difference between an aversive stimulus and a cue.

By your logic green lights are also aversives because people avoid the behavior of stopping in their presence.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Legshand:

Aversives are t*he stimuli we learn to avoid*... I hope your not one of those idiots [who], *when* [you're] *driving,* *ignore the red aversive light.*

/QUOTE
.
.
LegsB®ain,
I am sorry to break it to U, but traffic lights - whatever their color ATM - are not 'avoidable'. They also are not *aversive*.
.
Traffic lights are informational as well as cues to desired behavior - they alert us as we approach an intersection that we have lost the right of way, the oncoming traffic now HAS right of way, & we should stop.
.
The AVERSIVE is what happens if U *ignore* the red light: an accident occurs which damages Ur vehicle, may or may not damage U, may injure others, & U may be held civilly or criminally liable. Having a whopping repair bill, an injury that costs U working time, medical bills mounting up [at least here in the U-S-A, they do], & possibly being found legally 'at fault' for a moving violation, is a fairly significant stack of aversives. :Hilarious
OTOH, no accident may occur - which is luck, not skill, in most cases. Even in that instance, if U are photographed by a red-light camera, there will be a cheerful demand via the post to remit X dollars by X date, or be held in violation - which if it's not paid, can add much-steeper fines in addition to the red-light violation, or even cause U to lose Ur license within that state - plus, as U have accumulated POINTS on said driver's license, Ur insurance rates will go up.
.
All in all, the *red light* is not at all aversive; it is a key piece of information, which we ignore at our peril & possibly / likely imperil others, & ignoring it can be very, very expenisve AND AVERSIVE, indeed. 
I'd encourage all drivers to note traffic lights, signs, & other signals [Yield signs, ped-crosswalks, etc] & obey them - as it saves much time & trouble. 
.
.
.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2017)

Legshand said:


> _It's not an aversive - it's an order._
> 
> Aversives are *any stimulus we work to avoid, *the red light'order' is an order to avoid a specific behaviour, the vast majority of drivers avoid the behaviour of driving through/past it, to those who do not stop to avoid driving through (some dont) it is not an aversive stimulus to those individuals.


So you are happy to drive through red traffic lights. Oh dear one of these days you will get caught by the police.


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## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

From the Cambridge English Dictionary:
Aversive = 
feel a strongdislike for something, or making them not want to do it:

I don't dislike red lights. I stop because I learnt to do so, because it is the law to stop when the lights turn red.

From the same dictionary;
Aversive methods of stopping someone from behaving in a particular way involve doing something unpleasant to that person whenever they do something you do not want them to do:

Nothing unpleasant has happened to me for not stopping at a red light. When I learnt to drive I didn't get smacked about the head if I didn't stop the instant the light turned red. I was encouraged to stop, praised if I did it smoothly and without stalling the car.

You seem to have confused your definitions. I hope these ones taken straight from the dictionary assist you to become less confused.


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

OUISI
_By your logic green lights are also aversives because people avoid the behavior of stopping in their presence_.

Yes your absolutely correct, if a driver chooses to stay parked up & have a scratch or maybe a game of patience when the green light shows & the red light has gone then the green light is an aversive stimulus to parking up on the road, its telling you to drive on, boy your smart on driving nouse, kudos!


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2017)

Legshand said:


> OUISI
> _By your logic green lights are also aversives because people avoid the behavior of stopping in their presence_.
> 
> Yes your absolutely correct, if a driver chooses to stay parked up & have a scratch or maybe a game of patience when the green light shows & the red light has gone then the green light is an aversive stimulus to parking up on the road, its telling you to drive on, boy your smart on driving nouse, kudos!


Buahahahahaha! You're really going to try and persist with your logic and now state that green lights are aversive? Awesome. 

How has it been this long and you still have not learned anything?


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

kimmikins
_You seem to have confused your definitions. I hope these ones taken straight from the dictionary assist you to become less confused_.

What you have not yet understood is that the post, some time ago, slipped into the more specific operant (the word means/substitutes any behaviour), theory of learning your definition from the dictionary is a wider, less specific definition although it is still talking about the behaviour(s) of, quote, "_or making them *not *want to do it_"


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

ouisi
Buahahahahaha

LOL, I like that word, you made me laugh, can you think of a few more new words in the same vain


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Does anyone else feel as though they've slipped into the realm of Alice Through the Looking Glass?


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2017)

Sweety said:


> Does anyone else feel as though they've slipped into the realm of Alice Through the Looking Glass?


About right for this poster  His grip on reality and basic concepts in dog training are tenuous at best. 


Legshand said:


> ouisi
> Buahahahahaha
> 
> LOL, I like that word, you made me laugh, can you think of a few more new words in the same vain


*vein

Do you need more vocabulary lessons dear?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

:Yawn


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

ouisi
_You're really going to try and persist with your logic and now state that green lights are aversive?_

Well maybe the US drivers are much (very much) more patient & tolerant than there but here in UK dont try parking your car up & stopping the traffic for a while at a green light point, better you 'avoid' such behaviour or youll be subject to the wrath of other drivers


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

_His grip on reality and basic concepts in dog training are tenuous at best_.

Wrong, this past few posts have been based on B F Skinners concepts which others started using on here, surprised you did not notice that...hmm maybe not.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2017)

Hey, here's an idea. 
@Legshand I've answered your questions, how about you answer mine? 


ouesi said:


> And what about when the ecollar doesn't work?


When the ecollar training doesn't work, then what do you do? Do you have any other trick up your sleeve or are you a one trick pony?


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

_Do you need more vocabulary lessons dear?_

I think you mean spelling, I dont need spelling lessons 'cause you are correcting them for me, thanks.


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

Hey, why are you all taking this off topic, it was only about e-collars.......here lets have a vid demo of a collar trainer giving little 'jake' electric shocks with an electric shock collar to perform tricks, the real Mcoy as they say (Im fed up with traffic lights)

The Collar Is Activated When The Buzzer Sounds


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2017)

Legshand said:


> Hey, why are you all taking this off topic, it was only about e-collars.......here lets have a vid demo of a collar trainer giving little 'jake' electric shocks with an electric shock collar to perform tricks, the real Mcoy as they say (Im fed up with traffic lights)


1) Promoting the use of ecollars is not allowed, see here: http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/forum-rules.429795/
"The promotion of shock collars or aversive training methods is not allowed"
I'm pretty sure @simplysardonic will be along shortly to delete the video. 
2) Not even remotely (get it?) impressed with the video. And what is the obsession with shock jocks with getting dogs to jump on and off those PVC bed things?

3) Are you able to answer my question where I asked what do you do when the e-collar doesn't work?


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

[QUOTE="ouesi, post: "The promotion of shock collars or aversive training methods is not allowed"[/QUOTE]

I did not 'promote them', in fact if anything I offered Smokeybears method for training recall as an option when folks are having difficulty, Smokeybear recommends starving the dog for 3 days..........I did not have to offer that advice by smokeybear but I did out of a sense of responsibility & fairness, here watch the link below 7 let it scroll, the poster was right though, it means only fed the dog 9 meals per month, so Smokeybears method saves food money as well, see the vid and Smokeybears post below,


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Don't you get it yet?

We weren't interested in that the first time you posted it. We're even less interested now.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2017)

Sweety said:


> Don't you get it yet?


Nope. Nor does he get that making a dog work for their food is not starving the dog.

@Legshand I thought you wanted to go back to discussing ecollars? Now you're back to your stupid videos. 
How about you answer my question about ecollars? What do you do when the dog does not respond to ecollar training?


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2017)

Legshand said:


> OUISI
> _By your logic green lights are also aversives because people avoid the behavior of stopping in their presence_.
> 
> Yes your absolutely correct, if a driver chooses to stay parked up & have a scratch or maybe a game of patience when the green light shows & the red light has gone then the green light is an aversive stimulus to parking up on the road, its telling you to drive on, boy your smart on driving nouse, kudos!


Ok here's the thing. Red means all cars, bikes and motor bikes stop, that includes vans trucks lorries and coaches and buses, anything that goes on the road except padestrians crossing, so red means stop. Amber means get ready. Green mean go. So not traffic lights are not aversive duh.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Just caught up with this thread again .... so funny!!! You are right @ouesi there is a sort of nostalgia .... he never fails to deliver does he?!!!

I watched the video ..... not sure what it was supposed to prove though, anyone could train a dog to do those things using positive reinforcement. It's surely not as easy as saying they've 'tried everything (& I count myself as using that phrase!). They may have done as much as they possibly could but there may be other considerations they are simply not aware of, other things they are doing that may be adding to the problem, etc so observations from great trainers/behaviourists can be a massive help in addressing these issues aswell as giving ideas for day-to-day management.

I have said in other posts that I am not 100% anti ecollars, some of the trainers I admire use these but in the right context for the dog/owner. The problem with the video posted was that an ecollar was his only tool (or that's what it seemed to be), no where did he state he would evaluate the dog & then decide if it would help ..... it was simply the owner tries it then the collar is put on the dog .... why?

Why wouldn't he do some sessions with the dog first? Why put an ecollar on a dog simpy to teach it basic things?

*Surely that is the sign of a poor trainer rather than being used as an example of 'great' ecollar use* :Wtf


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
Skinner's *operant conditioning *has the subject, or the learner, experience a *consequence *to affect the learner's behavior *-*
*reinforcement *increases the frequency, duration, or likelihood of a prior behavior; *punishment *conversely decreases it similarly -
as shown in a graph, below, for ease of comprehension.








.
.
further explanation only confuses; the graph is clearer than verbal or text info. 
.
.
.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

That traffic light thing is amazing. Just amazing.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> That traffic light thing is amazing. Just amazing.


It really is isn't it??! See what gems you miss over in the cat section


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Thelordofmersea said:


> Hi Gill
> FYI I have been in contact and visited a number of residential dog training companies with my dog in a search to gather information as to which of them to use. In my opinion G3 dogs and it's director Edmond Kan is probably the most honest one of them all. Take a look on YouTube to see how well his dogs are trained. It looks even better when you see them for yourself. Also to dispel a lot of the rubbish being promulgated in these strings, an e-collar is a very effective 'training tool' if used correctly (its nothing to do with punishment). To enlighten some of the other posters, I am retired from the emergency services and I can reliably inform you that the UK Police, Fire Service Search and Rescue and most gun dog trainers all use e-collars to reliably train their dogs. In fact, quite a number of them use pinch collars too. It really winds me up when ill-informed people give their opinions based on myths and preconceived ideas. I suppose these people are against slip collars too? Because the Guide Dogs for the blind and the RSPCA use them - what do they know!


Edmond is an arse. I have met him and honestly have no doubt of that. I have no need of such cruel 'training' *cough* since my dog graduated from group classes with flying colours today, surrounded by 6 different dogs whom she hadn't met before and endorsed by a top trainer (featured at Crufts) who is completely positively endorsed. She's a perfect demonstration of why positive training works. My dog is happy, loved and calm. That's more than I can ever say of Khan's dogs whom I met. Such very very sad souls.

There is no value in regurgitating this thread.


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2017)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> That traffic light thing is amazing. Just amazing.


Isn't it though? Do you see what I mean about being torn between reporting him and seeing what gems of confusion he will post next?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

MollySmith said:


> Edmond is an arse. I have met him and honestly have no doubt of that. I have no need of such cruel 'training' *cough* since my dog graduated from group classes with flying colours today, surrounded by 6 different dogs whom she hadn't met before and endorsed by a top trainer (featured at Crufts) who is completely positively endorsed. She's a perfect demonstration of why positive training works. My dog is happy, loved and calm. That's more than I can ever say of Khan's dogs whom I met. Such very very sad souls.
> 
> There is no value in regurgitating this thread.


That is great news, well done! .... but I have to disgree regarding this thread. Debate, especially over controversial issues should be encouraged rather than instantly stopped as used to be on this forum


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> It really is isn't it??! See what gems you miss over in the cat section


I sure do, Gill!


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2017)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> I sure do, Gill!


We don't half have fun with some the numpty's in dog chat. Paticularly the all hail ecollar fool here.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

MollySmith said:


> Edmond is an arse. I have met him and honestly have no doubt of that. I have no need of such cruel 'training' *cough* since my dog graduated from group classes with flying colours today, surrounded by 6 different dogs whom she hadn't met before and endorsed by a top trainer (featured at Crufts) who is completely positively endorsed. She's a perfect demonstration of why positive training works. My dog is happy, loved and calm. That's more than I can ever say of Khan's dogs whom I met. Such very very sad souls.
> 
> There is no value in regurgitating this thread.


I met with him when Cash was a pup and had no idea he was the director of G3. He made not one mention of e-collars whilst I was with him and his own dog he had with him wasn't wearing one either so I assume for the unsuspecting general public who meet with him initially, they are none the wiser. Just see well trained dogs and not the method used to achieve said training.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
here's a graph of various reinforcement schedules -
.








.
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.


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## Pawscrossed (Jul 2, 2013)

Thelordofmersea said:


> Hi Gill
> FYI I have been in contact and visited a number of residential dog training companies with my dog in a search to gather information as to which of them to use. In my opinion G3 dogs and it's director Edmond Kan is probably the most honest one of them all. Take a look on YouTube to see how well his dogs are trained. It looks even better when you see them for yourself. Also to dispel a lot of the rubbish being promulgated in these strings, an e-collar is a very effective 'training tool' if used correctly (its nothing to do with punishment). To enlighten some of the other posters, I am retired from the emergency services and I can reliably inform you that the UK Police, Fire Service Search and Rescue and most gun dog trainers all use e-collars to reliably train their dogs. In fact, quite a number of them use pinch collars too. It really winds me up when ill-informed people give their opinions based on myths and preconceived ideas. I suppose these people are against slip collars too? Because the Guide Dogs for the blind and the RSPCA use them - what do they know!


The Guide Dogs for the Blind switched to positive reinforcement years ago and saw a big increase in dogs completing their training. I have socialised dogs for Hearing Dogs too and the same is true of them. Please check your facts first

http://thebark.com/content/guide-dogs-blind


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

.


Pawscrossed said:


> The Guide Dogs for the Blind switched to positive reinforcement years ago and saw a big increase in dogs completing their training. I have socialised dogs for Hearing Dogs too and the same is true of them. Please check your facts first
> 
> http://thebark.com/content/guide-dogs-blind


I don't think facts are very important to Sleepy bones!


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Makes you wonder how on earth man trained dogs before the invention of electronics and batteries the way some people wheel these contraptions out for every little behaviour they want to teach.

How long ago did domestication happen again......


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> Makes you wonder how on earth man trained dogs before the invention of electronics and batteries


To be fair my mother was very capable of belting a dog with a lead for some pretty minor infractions. There have always been people who believe the road to success lies in dominance and bullying - technology simply increased their range.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2017)

Pawscrossed said:


> The Guide Dogs for the Blind switched to positive reinforcement years ago and saw a big increase in dogs completing their training. I have socialised dogs for Hearing Dogs too and the same is true of them. Please check your facts first
> 
> http://thebark.com/content/guide-dogs-blind


They did indeed switch to positive reinforcement. When I was applying during the further assessment where I looked after a guide dog in training was starting to pull and the trainer told me to stop walking and she stopped got praised then we walked again and she stayed at a nice pace in front of me, no pulling apart from that once. Of course the chap had a clicker on him so handed it to me to click then as I was handling her I rewarded her good behaviour. Only thing they hadn't yet managed to sort out is her jumping up but they must have sorted that out because she made it as a guide dog. No lead jerking nothing old school.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
and unfortunately, @havoc , there will always *be* people who persist & insist on using punishment, aversives, sheer brute force, & anything that comes to hand to physically hurt a nonhuman, & who will claim this is 'training'.
It's only *training* if the process succeeds in producing the cued behavior U want - & if that process, or the tools used, violate the guidelines of humane standards, the so-called trainer can find themselves hied off to court.
.
Long before shock-collars were invented [which BTW was 1929 or earlier - the earliest U-S patent i could find for a shock-collar was 1929] or even before electricity was discovered, some ppl found ways & means to force animals to "obey" them, even if only in that moment - fear, pain, a fist, a kick, they've been around for a very, very long time. Shock-collars just make it more convenient, less overt, & it looks more "scientific" than beating a dog with a dog-whip - yup, there was such a thing, & it was sold as a dog-whip, & nobody batted an eyelash.
.
Force, pain, & fear are choices; U can use them, or abjure them. // Some will never give them up - just as some parents will never stop slapping or spanking.
.
.
.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Nonnie said:


> Makes you wonder how on earth man trained dogs before the invention of electronics and batteries the way some people wheel these contraptions out for every little behaviour they want to teach.
> 
> How long ago did domestication happen again......


They used one of these:


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> They used one of these:


I had to look very carefully at that to see what it was


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Tut tut, filthy mind!


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Dogloverlou said:


> I met with him when Cash was a pup and had no idea he was the director of G3. He made not one mention of e-collars whilst I was with him and his own dog he had with him wasn't wearing one either so I assume for the unsuspecting general public who meet with him initially, they are none the wiser. Just see well trained dogs and not the method used to achieve said training.


Perhaps he realised there is a better way and decided to move on. I suspect not but one can live in hope..! I agree, I think it's only when you've paid the money you realise or do some digging around their FB page. It's a shame, so many great trainers around here. Developing Dogs is the other recommendation.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> That is great news, well done! .... but I have to disgree regarding this thread. Debate, especially over controversial issues should be encouraged rather than instantly stopped as used to be on this forum


Thank you.

Yes, I see your point, I'd just rather not be reminded of G3, but it's good to share evidence and what better way through our dogs.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2017)

MollySmith said:


> it's good to share evidence and what better way through our dogs.


Exactly.

The reality is, most people aren't interested in the humane/not humane discussion. For one, many do believe e-collars are more humane. They certainly don't do the physical damage a choke chain or even a slip lead can.
Nor does it do any good to go on about how your dog must hate you etc., because dogs are masters of appeasement and very often the worse you treat them, the more they appease and appear to love you.

When you look at dog sports like IPO, the main reason so many people switched over to clicker training and R+ instead of R- was that is produced better results. Dogs perform better, the behaviors are stronger, the dog is more enthusiastic, which means higher scores, more wins. 
This is the evidence that got people to switch. Not "OMG you're so mean to your dog."

Results. People want results.

And the truth is, e-collars can work quite well. But when they don't work, which is often, then what? That's why I keep asking @Legshand what he does when the e-collar doesn't work. A question he seems unwilling (unable?) to answer. Probably because he doesn't understand reinforcement enough to be able to actually apply it. 
Who was it that said if the only tool you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Siskin said:


> I had to look very carefully at that to see what it was


 I thought it was an ice cream :Angelic


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Exactly.
> 
> And the truth is, e-collars can work quite well. But when they don't work, which is often, then what? That's why I keep asking @Legshand what he does when the e-collar doesn't work. A question he seems unwilling (unable?) to answer. Probably because he doesn't understand reinforcement enough to be able to actually apply it.
> Who was it that said if the only tool you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail?


That's what I didn't understand from the video example posted .... if an ecollar is his only tool then what when it doesn't work? .... what if ecollars are banned as they have been in many countries? ... is that the end of his career as a dog 'trainer'?!

That's why I really appreciate the IPO trainer I have as he has so many ideas, he will always change his methods according to the dog/owner & there is never one answer to anything.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> That's what I didn't understand from the video example posted .... if an ecollar is his only tool then what when it doesn't work? .... what if ecollars are banned as they have been in many countries? ... is that the end of his career as a dog 'trainer'?!
> 
> That's why I really appreciate the IPO trainer I have as he has so many ideas, he will always change his methods according to the dog/owner & there is never one answer to anything.


Well the video example is stupid sorry, but it is. 
You don't need an e-collar to teach a dog to get up and down from a place board. Especially not if you're already using treats and the dog is clearly motivated to work for the treats. It's not just overkill, it's totally over complicating something that is very simple.

IMO there isn't any reason to use e-collars to teach basic behaviors. If you can't get a dog to work for food, you're not a very good trainer. Yes, I know people will take offense at that, but seriously, if you can't get a dog to work for a basic biological necessity, then your abilities to motivate a dog suck and you shouldn't be training dogs.

And yes, I know, many dogs prefer to work for other things like a toy, or just the work itself is reward enough. I get that, that's not what I'm talking about. 
I'm talking about trainers who use e-collars exclusively or for stupid things like teaching a dog to get up on a place board which seems to be the shock jock's sole piece de resistance "woo hoo look at me! I taught a dog to get up on a pvc bed and stay there 'till I call him off." At 6 years old my daughter could do that and more with great dane using nothing but a pouch full of treats.

The people I respect who use e-collars have a vast knowledge of behavior and motivation and have e-collars in their toolbox among multiple other tools and tricks.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> Just caught up with this thread again .... so funny!!! You are right @ouesi there is a sort of nostalgia .... he never fails to deliver does he?!!!
> 
> I watched the video ..... not sure what it was supposed to prove though, anyone could train a dog to do those things using positive reinforcement. It's surely not as easy as saying they've 'tried everything (& I count myself as using that phrase!). They may have done as much as they possibly could but there may be other considerations they are simply not aware of, other things they are doing that may be adding to the problem, etc so observations from great trainers/behaviourists can be a massive help in addressing these issues aswell as giving ideas for day-to-day management.
> 
> ...


I've deleted the video. We have no need to watch how big bullies with a button in their hand think they are training their dogs.



Cleo38 said:


> That is great news, well done! .... but I have to disgree regarding this thread. Debate, especially over controversial issues should be encouraged rather than instantly stopped as used to be on this forum


Debating is fine; we might even persuade some of these people to a more enlightened way of thinking. It is promoting them and posting videos we object to.

Just for the record, I managed to train three newfoundland dogs, each weighing in the region of 80 kg. using positive methods. Ferdie and Diva were featured on Victoria Stilwell's blog as an example of what can be achieved. I remember once while talking to a fellow dogwalker, with Ferdie and Diva waiting patiently, Ferdie sitting, Diva standing, and someone saying to me 'you must be strong to hold on to those two.' Just as if I could have held on to them if they hadn't wanted to stay there. I could walk them on leads, one either side and they walked next to me. Any aversive methods used on Ferdie would have had him retaliating and on Diva would have had her running away. The same with Joshua.

The only good use for an e-collar in my opinion is round the neck of the so-called 'trainer'.


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## CavalierLotta (Feb 26, 2017)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> That traffic light thing is amazing. Just amazing.





Cleo38 said:


> It really is isn't it??! See what gems you miss over in the cat section


My client also thinks that it sounded silly.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Look, I'm really sorry for reviving this and I was honestly in two minds about doing so - but I keep thinking about it.

I've made a table to try and illustrate the difference between a 'cue' and an 'aversive stimulus' in relation to this conversation. Enjoy.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2017)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Look, I'm really sorry for reviving this and I was honestly in two minds about doing so - but I keep thinking about it.
> 
> I've made a table to try and illustrate the difference between a 'cue' and an 'aversive stimulus' in relation to this conversation. Enjoy.
> 
> View attachment 306289


Nice!
Not that it will do any good in the case of a certain poster, but hey, it's very useful for the rest of the forum members 

Are you one of those people who is incredibly productive and creative when procrastinating other chores - like spring cleaning?  
Not that I would know from experience or anything.... *whistles innocently*


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
I'll also add a true story to the thread - illustrating the diff in *performance *between "avoid aversive" & "work for reward".
After all, we train for results - how we train is critical to what quality of results we achieve, as well as the *time to criterion*.
("Time to criterion" is how much total time we must invest to achieve a given level of reliability.)
.
.
An American trainer was traveling in the far East, & came to an elephant camp; one of the mahouts was trying to make an elephant pick up their feet to be cleaned, examined, & the nails filed / sole checked. The mahout was whacking the elephant's lower foreleg with the ankus, & shouting a command [AKA cue], getting angrier & angrier as the animal shuffled, ducked, & tried to escape the jabbing goad, to no avail.
The trainer made a bet with the mahout - he'd train any other elephant the man chose to pick up their feet, without using the ankus at all. The mahout accepted, thinking this would be an easy win, as this man knew nothing of elephants.
The American was told to train an elderly female who was notorious for being difficult; he found that she adored apples, & so got a good pailful, & began to mark every wt-shift she made with her forefeet, then marked every time she lifted either foot a fraction of an inch, then marked only higher lifts, etc. // She ate most of the apples, then he began cutting them into pieces & used the pieces to reward her.
The next morning, he went out & called her name, only to find her already as close as she could get - with her leg already lifted as high as she could lift it, as she'd recognized his voice & hoped for more apples.
The mahout's elephant, by contrast, stood facing away & tried to escape the mahout, expecting more pain from the goad. // Needless to say, the trainer won his bet. 
.
.
All training is *quantifiable: *
how much success we get over what period of time, how much lag-time between cue & response, how close the dog sits to front on a recall, how far away the dog is when s/he walks at heel, how straight the dog sits, can U get a fold-back down?, can U get a sit on the halt?, etc.
If U do not pay attn to DATA, U are a poor trainer; the level when a dog is ready for the next step in the process is 80% success, meaning 4 times of 5, the dog complies on a single cue [no verbal plus hand signal, etc - ONE cue, either hand signal or verbal cue or __other__ ].
.
.
I started out many years ago, using a choke-chain under the instruction of an excellent mentor - she bred & trained her own GSDs, her foundation stock had been personally chosen in Germany by her & brought back by air. Her dogs were beautiful, intelligent, & had incredible temps. Thankfully, altho she used slip-chains in class, she was an extremely fair trainer, praising far more often than she punished, & her punishment was short, accurate, & pointed. She didn't nag, she never in her life hoisted a dog up by the collar to shut-off their airway.
Her classes were old-fashioned military drill block exercises, but she was - for her time - a leading light of humane training. // I was only 10-YO when i began training my 1st pup, in 4-H, under her tutelage.
.
As time went on, i discovered much better ways of training; the less i used aversives of any kind, the faster the nonhuman learned, & the better their retention became. Choke chains were not just unnecessary, they were counter-productive. So were prongs, shock, rattle-cans, shouting, angry displays, threats, looming over, staring down, & all the rest of the panoply of confrontational & aversive tools or techniques.
The nonhumans are much happier, I get where i'm headed that much faster, & *anyone can do this.*
*It is not an instinct; it's not a gift. Training is a skill set - if U are at least 8-YO, can think & plan, can count, & have what's regarded as average intelligence, YOU CAN LEARN to train any animal, from a paramecium to a pachyderm, a dog to a dickcissel, a porcupine to a porpoise - with rewards.*
.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, rottiepointerhouse:

[Are] all female posters on this thread... called Gill, or [is] it code language for something I know nothing about? 

/QUOTE
.
.
If U go _*all the way back*_ to the beginning, LOL, all is revealed. 
.
Canarie, who began the thread in May-2014, signed the original post not with a user-name, but "Gill" - presumably his name.
LordOfMersea [a bit grandiose, that] is replying to an almost-3-YO thread, directly to the OP.  The rest of us apparently don't exist.
.
Suddenly, i feel very ethereal - light, wispy... my hands, they're becoming transparent...
.
.
.
.
:Smug gotcha!
.
.
.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, rottiepointerhouse:
> 
> [Are] all female posters on this thread... called Gill, or [is] it code language for something I know nothing about?
> 
> ...


I'm not a Gill. I'm a Margaret xx


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, newfiesmum:

I'm not a Gill. I'm a Margaret xx

/QUOTE
.
.
true, that!  
But "we", the recent-responders, don't matter - LoM addressed all his / her / their remarks to Canarie - AKA 'Gill'.
.
we're out of the loop.  Awww. And off the hook!  Didja have a good breakfast, Marg? - I'm having sliced banana, applesauce, & sunseed butter on whole-grain toast, mmm. :Happy
.
.
.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, newfiesmum:
> 
> I'm not a Gill. I'm a Margaret xx
> 
> ...


For breakfast? That's more than I'd have for dinner!


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I'm a Gill

I'm sure he wasn't speaking to me, but it made me sit up and wonder.


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## Canarie (Sep 4, 2013)

Bit confused why this thread is ongoing?
Put it on in 2014?Seems to have been revisited......

Canarie


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Canarie:

Bit confused why this thread is ongoing?
Put it on in 2014? Seems to have been revisited......

- Canarie

/QUOTE
.
.
hi, Gill! - sorry, i couldn't resist. 
.
Lord-of-Mersea revived it, a few posts back - no worries, old threads sometimes come back from the dead.  Then they wander back into oblivion, again.
.
- terry
.
.
.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, Canarie:
> 
> Bit confused why this thread is ongoing?
> Put it on in 2014? Seems to have been revisited......
> ...


hi Terry neither could I


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Siskin:

hi Terry  neither could I.

/QUOTE
.
.
hey, Gill!  Lovely day here in metro-Boston, hope U had a good 'un, whatever the weather. 
.
It's past 6 UK-time, praps U're having a meal? ---- i'll be off to the hospital soon, my client will most-likely be discharged tomorrow, & will now be on *palliative care *[vs the usual hope-to-heal / work-to-recover], so we must attend a meeting to learn the new regime.
.
cheers,
- t
.
.
.


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