# Is it appropriate to negotiate a price with breeders?



## ZaZaEstelle (Jun 14, 2021)

I've been in touch with a breeder for a while. Yesterday I asked for an update and she has the most beautiful kittens. Her price is £900, and although there are more expensive prices for cats, this is the most expensive I've come across for a Birman. Other breeders I've been in touch with have had them going for 650 and 750. Both breeders were genuine and good owners too. 

I dont want to insult her or come across entitled, is it normal for customers to negotiate prices with cat breeders? I would like to bring it down to £800 maybe. 

If not, I'll come to a decision on what I'll do.


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## Maurey (Nov 18, 2019)

I wouldn’t haggle, honestly — it’s improper and rude, imo. The UK has ridiculously low prices for pedigree cats as it is, and prices being lower than average can sadly often be reflected in subpar breeding practices, such as lacking testing — Birmans are a rare breed, and the other breeders being cheaper may simply be indicative of them cutting corners. A good breeder won’t charge more for the profits. They charge more because they need to cover their expenses. A breeder with more expensive kittens may do more extensive testing, or feed a better diet, etc.

Birmans need HCM scanning, lines clear of FIP, good kidney function in the parents (a study has shown they may prone to high creatinine, as a breed), and the parents need to be clear of epilepsy (this is a rare issue). Breeder should show their cats, neuter, chip, and vaccinate before sale, and keep kittens until at least 12 weeks. Kittens should come with papers, even if they’re being sold pet-only.


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## ZaZaEstelle (Jun 14, 2021)

Maurey said:


> I wouldn't haggle, honestly - it's improper and rude, imo. The UK has ridiculously low prices for pedigree cats as it is, and prices being lower than average can sadly often be reflected in subpar breeding practices, such as lacking testing - Birmans are a rare breed, and the other breeders being cheaper may simply be indicative of them cutting corners. A good breeder won't charge more for the profits. They charge more because they need to cover their expenses. A breeder with more expensive kittens may do more extensive testing, or feed a better diet, etc.
> 
> Birmans need HCM scanning, lines clear of FIP, good kidney function in the parents (a study has shown they may prone to high creatinine, as a breed), and the parents need to be clear of epilepsy (this is a rare issue). Breeder should show their cats, neuter, chip, and vaccinate before sale, and keep kittens until at least 12 weeks. Kittens should come with papers, even if they're being sold pet-only.


Thanks for this, I have seen much higher prices in the US for pedigree cats, so you may be right about that.

I wont bother negotiating a price then, the last thing I want is to come across as rude. I'll have a think about it, I really have been wanting a Birman for years now.


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## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

You'll pay much higher prices all over Europe than you will in the UK. 
Imo £900 isn't over priced but make sure all relevant health testing of the 0arents has been done and that the kittens are also registered etc. 
I won't even have a conversation with someone who tries to haggle over the price of our kittens. I cut them off and block them.


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## ZaZaEstelle (Jun 14, 2021)

David C said:


> You'll pay much higher prices all over Europe than you will in the UK.
> Imo £900 isn't over priced but make sure all relevant health testing of the 0arents has been done and that the kittens are also registered etc.
> I won't even have a conversation with someone who tries to haggle over the price of our kittens. I cut them off and block them.


This is why I made sure I wasn't going to do anything silly before I lose my chances of getting a kitten, breeder also seems like a lovely person.

Thanks for your response


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

ZaZaEstelle said:


> I've been in touch with a breeder for a while. Yesterday I asked for an update and she has the most beautiful kittens. Her price is £900, and although there are more expensive prices for cats, this is the most expensive I've come across for a Birman. Other breeders I've been in touch with have had them going for 650 and 750. Both breeders were genuine and good owners too.
> 
> I dont want to insult her or come across entitled, is it normal for customers to negotiate prices with cat breeders? I would like to bring it down to £800 maybe.
> 
> If not, I'll come to a decision on what I'll do.


@Tigermoon will be able to advise you about Birmans and breeders.

In general, prices can vary according to the area. Vet bills vary in different locations and so are the costs of producing kittens. Especially these days, some breeders import breeding cats which is an expensive business. (I am not saying I think their kittens are better but those breeders definitely have higher costs.)

When I was breeding I only charged the lowest possible price for my breeds but, even so, occasionally somebody would try to haggle and, as @David C says, that would put me off the person enquiring.


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## Maurey (Nov 18, 2019)

QOTN said:


> Especially these days, some breeders import breeding cats which is an expensive business. (I am not saying I think their kittens are better but those breeders definitely have higher costs.)


Importing is common, especially with reputable Birman breeders, from what I've been told. They're a breed with very low genetic diversity, so import is fairly necessary to avoid further inbreeding, alongside breeding programs to introduce new blood.


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## ZaZaEstelle (Jun 14, 2021)

QOTN said:


> @Tigermoon will be able to advise you about Birmans and breeders.
> 
> In general, prices can vary according to the area. Vet bills vary in different locations and so are the costs of producing kittens. Especially these days, some breeders import breeding cats which is an expensive business. (I am not saying I think their kittens are better but those breeders definitely have higher costs.)
> 
> When I was breeding I only charged the lowest possible price for my breeds but, even so, occasionally somebody would try to haggle and, as @David C says, that would put me off the person enquiring.


Thanks for your response.

I live in the South East of England, and have found cheaper breeders, but I get along with this breeder quite well, and she isn't too far at all. I have asked all the relevant questions when it comes to buying from a breeder, and everything seems to be fine with testing, GCCF certification, vaccinations etc.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

ZaZaEstelle said:


> I've been in touch with a breeder for a while. Yesterday I asked for an update and she has the most beautiful kittens. Her price is £900, and although there are more expensive prices for cats, this is the most expensive I've come across for a Birman. Other breeders I've been in touch with have had them going for 650 and 750. Both breeders were genuine and good owners too.
> 
> I dont want to insult her or come across entitled, is it normal for customers to negotiate prices with cat breeders? I would like to bring it down to £800 maybe.
> 
> If not, I'll come to a decision on what I'll do.


You can try but anyone who tries to haggle with me is sent n their way.

Are these registered kittens? Are they neutered (and hopefully chipped) as well as vaccinated & wormed?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Maurey said:


> Importing is common, especially with reputable Birman breeders, from what I've been told. They're a breed with very low genetic diversity, so import is fairly necessary to avoid further inbreeding, alongside breeding programs to introduce new blood.


That is why I mentioned importing. However, I have known breeders in my own breeds who have hardly improved their lines with importing quite the reverse in fact. It is so difficult to know what you are getting. It is not always possible to know when outcrossing is beneficial even with known UK lines. The risk is even greater with importing.

Breeders who don't import are not necessarily inferior.


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## ZaZaEstelle (Jun 14, 2021)

OrientalSlave said:


> You can try but anyone who tries to haggle with me is sent n their way.
> 
> Are these registered kittens? Are they neutered (and hopefully chipped) as well as vaccinated & wormed?


Not neutered but everything else you mentioned- yes


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

ZaZaEstelle said:


> Not neutered but everything else you mentioned- yes


Personally if I think the price is too high I walk away.


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## ZaZaEstelle (Jun 14, 2021)

Hi guys, just to update. I did ask to make sure, and was more specific this time about testing. This was what I wrote 

"Hi,
Have they been tested for common diseases such as FIP, CKD and epilepsy? 

Kind regards
..."

Her response: 

"
Hi
I have been breeding for 14 odd years now and none of my cats have ever had kidney disease. Epilepsy ? I am not sure how a cat let alone a human can get tested for that and once again never heard of it in any of my cats.
FIP there is no test for FIP. coronavirus yes but just about every cat has it and FIP is a mutation of coronavirus that they still have no idea how or why it mutates." 

I knew epilepsy was rare in cats, I didnt make that clear but I still wanted go know about epilepsy so I left it in regardless.


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## ZaZaEstelle (Jun 14, 2021)

OrientalSlave said:


> Personally if I think the price is too high I walk away.


I'll have a think, I'm not sure. I will have the kitten neutered regardless, but right now was a good time in my life to get a kitten since ill be working from home and will be able to give it the attention it needs. After about 6, 7 months I'll start working but the cat would still have a lot of attention, just not the way it will right now with me being home pretty much 24/7


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## Maurey (Nov 18, 2019)

HCM is the important one to be screened for, something not enough Birman breeders do at the moment, far as I’m aware. The rest is just avoiding using cats that have or are closely related to cats that have kidney problems (outside of those that get them at old age) or epilepsy, and have had/died of FIP. Neutering cats related to FIP cats is somewhat common in Birman breeding, as the manifestation of the condition at least partially hereditary.


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## ZaZaEstelle (Jun 14, 2021)

Maurey said:


> HCM is the important one to be screened for, something not enough Birman breeders do at the moment, far as I'm aware. The rest is just avoiding using cats that have or are closely related to cats that have kidney problems (outside of those that get them at old age) or epilepsy, and have had/died of FIP. Neutering cats related to FIP cats is somewhat common in Birman breeding, as the manifestation of the condition at least partially hereditary.


I feel like if she did screen for that she would have mentioned while we were on a topic like this.

I'm not sure where to go from here. One person has already mentioned 900 is overpriced for not getting the kittens neutered.


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## ZaZaEstelle (Jun 14, 2021)

ZaZaEstelle said:


> I feel like if she did screen for that she would have mentioned while we were on a topic like this.
> 
> I'm not sure where to go from here. One person has already mentioned 900 is overpriced for not getting the kittens neutered.


I've just read it back, the user didn't actually say this. I may interpreted that incorrectly. I guess what they said was if they feel the price is too high they would walk away.

I'm not the most experienced when it comes to buying from breeders, and from what I have gathered 900 isn't very much. I did talk to a breeder that did all of these things for 650, including neutering, she also had a YouTube channel where she talks about what she does when she has a new litter of kittens. Unfortunately she was no longer breeding more kittens for this year.


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## Maurey (Nov 18, 2019)

With rare breeds especially, expect to wait — a year or more is common with some. If a breeder has available kittens, generally a bit of a red flag, more so with a rare breed.


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## ZaZaEstelle (Jun 14, 2021)

Maurey said:


> With rare breeds especially, expect to wait - a year or more is common with some. If a breeder has available kittens, generally a bit of a red flag.


I was in touch with this breeder from June/ July time roughly, so a few months and they did mention back then that I may be offered one. She is GCCF registered, I did look into it before calling her.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

ZaZaEstelle said:


> Hi
> I have been breeding for 14 odd years now and none of my cats have ever had kidney disease. Epilepsy ? I am not sure how a cat let alone a human can get tested for that and once again never heard of it in any of my cats.
> FIP there is no test for FIP. coronavirus yes but just about every cat has it and FIP is a mutation of coronavirus that they still have no idea how or why it mutates."


I think this reply is perfectly reasonable. Langford offer PKD testing for Birmans but state it is very low incidence. The breeder's comment about FIP is perfectly accurate and although there is a suspicion that some breeds and/or lines may be more susceptible to having individuals mutate the virus, there is as far as I know no evidence which they may be.

It is a pity you did not ask about HCM because @Tigermoon has in the past mentioned the research being carried out into the condition in Birmans so GCCF breeders ought to be well informed. The website suggests it may be an autosomal dominant gene but until it is identified, a breeder can only screen.

I must admit I have never heard of cats having a genetic tendency to develop epilepsy so if anybody can produce evidence, I shall be very interested.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Maurey said:


> With rare breeds especially, expect to wait - a year or more is common with some. *If a breeder has available kittens, generally a bit of a red flag, *more so with a rare breed.


I am not sure I understand this statement. When breeders have a litter surely they then have kittens available.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

QOTN said:


> I am not sure I understand this statement. When breeders have a litter surely they then have kittens available.


Many breeders will have a waiting list for kittens so once they have a litter the kittens may be all spoken for.


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## Maurey (Nov 18, 2019)

QOTN said:


> I am not sure I understand this statement. When breeders have a litter surely they then have kittens available.


If kittens are constantly available year round. Generally indicative of kitten mills, at least where I live. Kittens from reputable breeders are typically reserved far in advance.

Re: epilepsy - FARS has a high incidence in Birmans specifically, based on current data, so it's potentially at least partially genetic - no definitive conclusions yet, afaik. Birmans were highly represented in this study, though research is still ongoing in UC Davis, to my understanding https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1098612X15582080


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

lymorelynn said:


> Many breeders will have a waiting list for kittens so once they have a litter the kittens may be all spoken for.


So I understand but I never had a waiting list. I don't think I was therefore a 'red flag.'


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

QOTN said:


> So I understand but I never had a waiting list. I don't think I was therefore a 'red flag.'


No, I wouldn't say it was a red flag in itself. I do have waiting lists but this year I have had more people drop out than ever before so have had to advertise.


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## ZaZaEstelle (Jun 14, 2021)

QOTN said:


> I think this reply is perfectly reasonable. Langford offer PKD testing for Birmans but state it is very low incidence. The breeder's comment about FIP is perfectly accurate and although there is a suspicion that some breeds and/or lines may be more susceptible to having individuals mutate the virus, there is as far as I know no evidence which they may be.
> 
> It is a pity you did not ask about HCM because @Tigermoon has in the past mentioned the research being carried out into the condition in Birmans so GCCF breeders ought to be well informed. The website suggests it may be an autosomal dominant gene but until it is identified, a breeder can only screen.
> 
> I must admit I have never heard of cats having a genetic tendency to develop epilepsy so if anybody can produce evidence, I shall be very interested.


I did end up asking and this was her response "
All my breeding cats have been to the RVC for heart scans and are clear. HCM can come in any time though and a scan is a moment in time. I do have the kittens grandfather and great great grand father here. The only thing a breeder can is to end a line that has any doubt it in it at all.

Seizures, never seen them."

I'm about to reply to her to tell her I will be buying a kitten. I've decided to go for it, as 900 doesn't seem to very much money and right now is a good time to prepare.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

ZaZaEstelle said:


> I dont want to insult her or come across entitled, is it normal for customers to negotiate prices with cat breeders? I would like to bring it down to £800 maybe.





ZaZaEstelle said:


> "Hi, Have they been tested for common diseases such as FIP, CKD and epilepsy?"
> Her response:
> I have been breeding for 14 odd years now and none of my cats have ever had kidney disease. Epilepsy ? I am not sure how a cat let alone a human can get tested for that and once again never heard of it in any of my cats.
> FIP there is no test for FIP. coronavirus yes but just about every cat has it and FIP is a mutation of coronavirus that they still have no idea how or why it mutates."





ZaZaEstelle said:


> I did end up asking and this was her response "All my breeding cats have been to the RVC for heart scans and are clear. HCM can come in any time though and a scan is a moment in time. I do have the kittens grandfather and great great grand father here. The only thing a breeder can is to end a line that has any doubt it in it at all.


So I am a Birman breeder of 20 years experience, most Birman kittens this year have been around £650 to £800. I have never charged £900 even though I import which has cost me thousands over the years but imported lines on their own shouldn't increase price. It is the general quality of the kittens you are paying for along with the care and expense put in by the individual breeder. As such the prices breeders charge are non-negotiable. Is this kitten too much?? Possibly not given it is in the South East. 
You cannot test for FIP, only the coronavirus, and any value provided by that test is meaningless when trying to work out if any particular cat will or will not fall victim to FIP.
Epilepsy isn't a thing in Birmans that I am aware of. They can suffer from sound induced fits when elderly, but there is not test for this and no way of knowing if any particular cat will end up with this issue in their final years.
Kidney Disease: To my knowledge I am the only breeder in the UK who genetically tests every single breeding cat for PKD. PKD has been found in Birmans both here and elsewhere on the globe, but so far it does not seem to have a very high incidence, unlike Persians did back in the day before testing came in.
If she had her cats scanned for HCM by RVC then she almost certainly did it as part of the free testing that was taking place some years ago, during the research into the disease in this breed. I would have had more respect for her if she'd tested continued to test all her breeding cats at least biannually as she could well be using completely different cats by now. However she is correct that a scan in itself does not guarantee heart health for life and a cat can scan clear one day and be dead from HCM just a year later


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

QOTN said:


> <snip>
> I must admit I have never heard of cats having a genetic tendency to develop epilepsy so if anybody can produce evidence, I shall be very interested.


As far as I can gather from Google epilepsy in humans can be inherited or partially inherited, so I suspect it could be the same in cats


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Maurey said:


> Re: epilepsy - FARS has a high incidence in Birmans specifically, based on current data, so it's potentially at least partially genetic - no definitive conclusions yet, afaik. Birmans were highly represented in this study, though research is still ongoing in UC Davis, to my understanding https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1098612X15582080


This paper is very interesting but it does not really state there is a high incidence in Birmans, just that 30 out of 96 offered for the study were that breed. All the Birmans in the study were seal or blue and, although it states no other colours were found to suffer from the condition, it does not give any idea if the affected cats were related in any way. I really think there are far more worrying illnesses in cat breeds if the mean age of developing FARS is fifteen years.

*The mean age of the cats at seizure onset was 15 years (median 15 years; range 10-19 years). Forty-seven cats were female (64% were neutered; 30/47) and 49 were male (71% were neutered; 35/49*
*
*


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## ZaZaEstelle (Jun 14, 2021)

Tigermoon said:


> So I am a Birman breeder of 20 years experience, most Birman kittens this year have been around £650 to £800. I have never charged £900 even though I import which has cost me thousands over the years but imported lines on their own shouldn't increase price. It is the general quality of the kittens you are paying for along with the care and expense put in by the individual breeder. As such the prices breeders charge are non-negotiable. Is this kitten too much?? Possibly not given it is in the South East.
> You cannot test for FIP, only the coronavirus, and any value provided by that test is meaningless when trying to work out if any particular cat will or will not fall victim to FIP.
> Epilepsy isn't a thing in Birmans that I am aware of. They can suffer from sound induced fits when elderly, but there is not test for this and no way of knowing if any particular cat will end up with this issue in their final years.
> Kidney Disease: To my knowledge I am the only breeder in the UK who genetically tests every single breeding cat for PKD. PKD has been found in Birmans both here and elsewhere on the globe, but so far it does not seem to have a very high incidence, unlike Persians did back in the day before testing came in.
> If she had her cats scanned for HCM by RVC then she almost certainly did it as part of the free testing that was taking place some years ago, during the research into the disease in this breed. I would have had more respect for her if she'd tested continued to test all her breeding cats at least biannually as she could well be using completely different cats by now. However she is correct that a scan in itself does not guarantee heart health for life and a cat can scan clear one day and be dead from HCM just a year later


Hi, thank you for your detailed response. So the cats would have been scanned a few years back? I guess this is a bit of a bummer, as I did want a breeder that would be up to date on these things initially. But like I said, I am at a point in my life where the best time for a kitten would be now considering my plans for the future. As long as my kitten is healthy and well socialised thats all I can really ask for.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Maurey said:


> If kittens are constantly available year round. Generally indicative of kitten mills, at least where I live. Kittens from reputable breeders are typically reserved far in advance.


I agree with this statement but is not exactly what you said before.


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## Maurey (Nov 18, 2019)

ZaZaEstelle said:


> Hi, thank you for your detailed response. So the cats would have been scanned a few years back? I guess this is a bit of a bummer, as I did want a breeder that would be up to date on these things initially. But like I said, I am at a point in my life where the best time for a kitten would be now considering my plans for the future. As long as my kitten is healthy and well socialised thats all I can really ask for.


In all of-concern breeds, which, based on current stats, Birmans are, hearts should be screened at least every other year. My former stud (Maine Coon) was screened yearly when he was active. I plan to screen him every two unless the cardiologist brings up a concern that should be followed up on.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

QOTN said:


> This paper is very interesting but it does not really state there is a high incidence in Birmans, just that 30 out of 96 offered for the study were that breed. All the Birmans in the study were seal or blue and, although it states no other colours were found to suffer from the condition, it does not give any idea if the affected cats were related in any way.


I gave a bit of a wry smile that all of the Birmans involved were either Seal or Blue. Breeders with just these colours are very few and far between (I actually suspect that only two or three individuals were involved in this study, that their cats were bred from some of the first Birmans in the UK and were inevitably rather closely related). However I honestly wonder how they drew to some of the conclusions they did based on such a tiny number of cats, and a non representative number from any of the specific breeds (not just Birmans).


QOTN said:


> I really think there are far more worrying illnesses in cat breeds if the mean age of developing FARS is fifteen years.


Agreed, and most would ensure that a cat did not reach the ripe age of 15 years.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

HCM scanning is difficult in the U.K. the cheapest I can get my cats scanned around here is £650 when I enquired. If we were regularly showing in Europe I would have had them scanned whilst we were in Europe as it is around €100. My foundation queens parents and grandparents were scanned as part of the RVC study until they were 10 years old. I have always used older studs (5 + years olds) as any likely issues will have showed up? 
Does that make me a bad breeder?


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## Maurey (Nov 18, 2019)

lillytheunicorn said:


> HCM scanning is difficult in the U.K. the cheapest I can get my cats scanned around here is £650 when I enquired. If we were regularly showing in Europe I would have had them scanned whilst we were in Europe as it is around €100. My foundation queens parents and grandparents were scanned as part of the RVC study until they were 10 years old. I have always used older studs (5 + years olds) as any likely issues will have showed up?
> Does that make me a bad breeder?


HCM is polygenic. It should always be screened for in breeding animals of at risk breeds, imho. I know many of the ancestors of my cats. I know of one that died at 18 with a healthy heart, another at 14 that's doing well for her age. That doesn't mean I don't screen my pets - the best medicine is preventative care. Part of that involves breeding from healthy animals.

Here are the results of a quick google search. Given that, to my knowledge, you only need a detailed echo unless something of concern is found, there's no excuse not to do it, imo. Even if it does call for the full amount, it's still no excuse - breeding ethically is an expensive practice.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

There are fb groups for HCM clinics around the UK (and other countries) that significantly drop the price. One group has scans listed at £150 for example.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

Maurey said:


> HCM is polygenic. It should always be screened for in breeding animals of at risk breeds, imho. I know many of the ancestors of my cats. I know of one that died at 18 with a healthy heart, another at 14 that's doing well for her age. That doesn't mean I don't screen my pets - the best medicine is preventative care. Part of that involves breeding from healthy animals.
> 
> Here are the results of a quick google search. Given that, to my knowledge, you only need a detailed echo unless something of concern is found, there's no excuse not to do it, imo. Even if it does call for the full amount, it's still no excuse - breeding ethically is an expensive practice.
> 
> View attachment 477673


I will accept I am a BYB then.

The Winn foundation study into NFC cardiomyopathy found it is particularly difficult to diagnose in its early stages even with a echocardiogram. Moderately affected cats can deteriorate so quickly they are diagnosed on autopsy. The 2 NFC cats I know who died of cardiomyopathy were from regularly screened lines, they literally both dropped dead one day. Both cats were from European breeders and their were removed from all breeding programmes. How prevalent the problem is I am not sure, certainly not in the Bengal league of HCM.

A £180 is the price of a basic echo here but when talking to the vets that is just checking the heart is structally sound. One of my neuters had that to exclude HCM when she had her first asthma attack considering above. She is distantly related to mine but her lines were neutered once she was diagnosed.

The numbers of board certified cardiologist who undertake HCM screening is dwindling in the U.K. Langfords have stopped screening now. We were on the waiting list for the RVC to scan ours (we waited 9 months and I had to mate my girl and when they called us to offer an appointment she was almost due to have her kittens).

Our vets have scanned one of our cats who we breed and have used a stud (vet has certificate in diagnostics but not board certified cardiologist) however I do not class that as HCM screened. He was done as he is owned by one of them and was in for vaccinations so they scanned him once he has 3 years old.


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## Guest (Oct 8, 2021)

If a stud is not scanned till three years old ~ is he likely to have already fathered kittens at that point? 

I am not an expert in HCM but have read some breeds have a higher risk of early onset HCM from a small number of at risk studs fathering litters that spread the risk through the breeding pool. 
As I understand, this happened in Maine Coons and Siberians. 
Maine Coons to my current understanding can have this picked up by a genetic test.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

J. Dawson said:


> If a stud is not scanned till three years old ~ is he likely to have already fathered kittens at that point?
> 
> I am not an expert in HCM but have read some breeds have a higher risk of early onset HCM from a small number of at risk studs fathering litters that spread the risk through the breeding pool.
> As I understand, this happened in Maine Coons and Siberians.
> Maine Coons to my current understanding can have this picked up by a


There are DNA tests for the commonest genes responsible for HCM in Maine Coons & Ragdolls and I believe one might be on it's way for Sphynx. However as someone else mentioned, HCM is poly-genetic. In humans, "A mutation in any one of at least 11 genes can lead to HCM, a condition characterized by a thickening of the heart muscle (left ventricular hypertrophy). To date, more than 600 mutations have been identified in these genes." I appreciate cats are not people, but that could well be the case in cats as well. (source https://www.brighamandwomens.org/assets/BWH/heart-and-vascular-center/pdfs/basic-genetics-of-hcm.pdf)


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## Maurey (Nov 18, 2019)

lillytheunicorn said:


> The 2 NFC cats I know who died of cardiomyopathy were from regularly screened lines, they literally both dropped dead one day.


I would question how good the specialists were to be quite honest. Plus that's no excuse not to screen. Cats of all breeds can deteriorate quickly and seemingly suddenly. A good specialist may be able to spot something abnormal early on and want to regularly keep an eye on it. It still raises the chances of spotting something early. Excuses.



lillytheunicorn said:


> A £180 is the price of a basic echo here but when talking to the vets that is just checking the heart is structally sound. One of my neuters had that to exclude HCM when she had her first asthma attack considering above. She is distantly related to mine but her lines were neutered once she was diagnosed.
> 
> The numbers of board certified cardiologist who undertake HCM screening is dwindling in the U.K. Langfords have stopped screening now. We were on the waiting list for the RVC to scan ours (we waited 9 months and I had to mate my girl and when they called us to offer an appointment she was almost due to have her kittens).


If breeders in Australia, with much larger landmass, and few specialists, manage to screen regularly, there is no excuse for UK breeders not to do the same. Cost isn't an excuse. Not wanting to travel isn't an excuse. There is no valid excuse if you're breeding an HCM prone breed. If you want it done, it can be done. Tbh it feels like you've put more effort into finding excuses than finding a solution.


J. Dawson said:


> If a stud is not scanned till three years old ~ is he likely to have already fathered kittens at that point?


Cats can be scanned earlier than that. Vet visits at 1 year for hip scoring and heart screening are standard in MCO. Waiting to breed until both stud and queen are a few years old might be theoretically ideal, but hardly practical for most cats or breeders. Starting to breed a cat at around 3 can be beneficial in some ways, however, as a measure of health and longevity.


J. Dawson said:


> Maine Coons to my current understanding can have this picked up by a genetic test.


 MCO and RAG should both be HCM N/N with how long testing has been around. That doesn't absolve breeders of the need to screen. HCM is polygenic and complex, and N/N cats can still get HCM from other mutations.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

lillytheunicorn said:


> The numbers of board certified cardiologist who undertake HCM screening is dwindling in the U.K.


Because they became fed up of breeders who couldn't accept their cats had a problem and blasting them on social media. 
I split my cats up to help spread the load on costs. Half one year, half the next.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

Tigermoon said:


> Because they became fed up of breeders who couldn't accept their cats had a problem and blasting them on social media.
> I split my cats up to help spread the load on costs. Half one year, half the next.


Do you take them to a board certified cardiologist? I could get our vet to scan them but as he does the diagnostic echo's but always thought that wasn't good enough


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

J. Dawson said:


> If a stud is not scanned till three years old ~ is he likely to have already fathered kittens at that point?


Yes, but it simply isn't feasible, or morally decent to keep cats entire but not breed from them until the point of where HCM most commonly shows itself (often around 7 years of age).


J. Dawson said:


> Maine Coons to my current understanding can have this picked up by a genetic test.


One gene in Maine Coons, two in Ragdolls I believe. Out of how many causative genes?? Probably dozens. Yes the DNA test has helped to decrease the incidence of disease in those breeds, but it hasn't eliminated it.


OrientalSlave said:


> There are DNA tests for the commonest genes responsible for HCM in Maine Coons & Ragdolls and I believe one might be on it's way for Sphynx.


The Sphynx one has now landed, last year I think. Several other breeds have research currently ongoing.


Maurey said:


> I would question how good the specialists were to be quite honest. Plus that's no excuse not to screen. A good specialist may be able to spot something abnormal early on and want to regularly keep an eye on it.


If they were board certified they'd have been the best in the world. Certification comes from extensive learning, experience and regular tests to retain that certificate. Changes to the heart can happen in just months. A heart can pass one day and start to undergo changes the following week. There are also different types of cardiomyopathy, not all cause thickening. 


Maurey said:


> MCO and RAG should both be HCM N/N with how long testing has been around.


Possibly.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

lillytheunicorn said:


> Do you take them to a board certified cardiologist? I could get our vet to scan them but as he does the diagnostic echo's but always thought that wasn't good enough


Yes, it was. It was £600 per cat and I took four at a time. However, personally I think it would be fine to accept scans from any specialist feline cardiologist, especially if they are published. Not all choose to go on the board, they've still done the same qualifications.


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## Maurey (Nov 18, 2019)

Tigermoon said:


> If they were board certified they'd have been the best in the world. Certification comes from extensive learning, experience and regular tests to retain that certificate. Changes to the heart can happen in just months. A heart can pass one day and start to undergo changes the following week. There are also different types of cardiomyopathy, not all cause thickening.


True. My main point is that cats going downhill quickly, at times, is absolutely no reason not to screen.



Tigermoon said:


> Possibly


They still exist, sadly, but it's mostly down to bad breeding practices - HCM/N MCO (RAG too, afaik) are at higher risk of getting HCM than N/N cats, yet some idiots still breed them. The gene should've been culled out years ago.

BYB is also rife in both breeds, so I don't doubt the genes are alive and well in those populations.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Maurey said:


> They still exist, sadly, but it's mostly down to bad breeding practices - HCM/N MCO (RAG too, afaik) are at higher risk of getting HCM than N/N cats, yet some idiots still breed them. The gene should've been culled out years ago.


Actually the researchers all said that removing Hetrozygous cats from the breeding population would be highly damaging. Pedigree cats are a finite population based on a very, very small genetic base. To just cull a percentage of that population would destroy the breed and helps noone. I believe that in order to register active with GCCF these breeds must have a clear genetic test, meaning those genes must be on the way out by now, certainly in GCCF bred cats.


Maurey said:


> BYB is also rife in both breeds, so I don't doubt the genes are alive and well in those populations.


BYB bred cats are unlikely to end up in the main registered body of the breed, as they can't and won't be acceptable for registration. If people continue to buy willy-nilly from BYBs without doing their research and demanding proof of genetic clearance at a minimum then that's their lookout.


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## Maurey (Nov 18, 2019)

Tigermoon said:


> Actually the researchers all said that removing Hetrozygous cats from the breeding population would be highly damaging. Pedigree cats are a finite population based on a very, very small genetic base. To just cull a percentage of that population would destroy the breed and helps noone.


Not suggesting immediately culling, just the gene bred out of het lines, much the way they're doing with Sphinx now, and tmk the way it was done with MCO. All cats homozygous for the gene are removed from breeding, cats of good type and otherwise good health that are homozygous kept on to produce cats without the gene. By now, at the very least MCO (couldn't say about RAG) have enough N/N cats for HCM/N cats to be a pointless risk in breeding. The breed needs outcrossing and careful management with genetic diversity, regardless of culling a few HCM/N cats.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

At the risk of deviating even further from the subject of this thread, I do think an overall view is better in a breeding situation. In the same way that it is detrimental to a breed to concentrate solely on type rather than health, surely it is as bad to concentrate on just one facet of health. For example, if a line with no evidence of HCM starts to produce cats with early renal failure, surely it is better to stop breeding from those cats rather than saying freedom from HCM overrides all else. As has been said, breeds are obviously better with as wide a gene pool as possible.

It is definitely a good idea to DNA test where possible for HCM but this is not yet an option with Birmans and screening is a very good idea if there is any concern about the condition in lines or breeds. The trouble is that a clear scan does not prevent it appearing at a later date so can create a false sense of security as has already been mentioned.

Frankly I find the suggestion of delaying breeding a queen until she is three years old ridiculous. I aimed to neuter my girls by the time they were four to avoid the increased risk of mammary tumours, so delaying their first kittens would simply mean it would be unlikely to progress the breed in any other way. HCM is not the only problem breeders face and anyway, it is probably never going to be possible to eliminate all causes, genetic or otherwise, of heart disease in cats or humans. 

It is comparatively recent that we have been able to test for some diseases but there are many more where no tests exist. Better not to throw the baby out with the bath water.


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## Maurey (Nov 18, 2019)

QOTN said:


> The trouble is that a clear scan does not prevent it appearing at a later date so can create a false sense of security as has already been mentioned.


And? Not screening at all means you have even less information. A clear scan is still mandatory for anaesthesia and breeding both.



QOTN said:


> At the risk of deviating even further from the subject of this thread, I do think an overall view is better in a breeding situation. In the same way that it is detrimental to a breed to concentrate solely on type rather than health, surely it is as bad to concentrate on just one facet of health. For example, if a line with no evidence of HCM starts to produce cats with early renal failure, surely it is better to stop breeding from those cats rather than saying freedom from HCM overrides all else. As has been said, breeds are obviously better with as wide a gene pool as possible.


Nowhere did I say nor imply that HCM free should be bred for to the detriment of other aspects of health or genetic diversity. HCM N/N can be selectively bred for without negatively affecting either. This discussion keeps going on in circles. I'm done.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Maurey said:


> Not suggesting immediately culling, just the gene bred out of het lines, much the way they're doing with Sphinx now, and tmk the way it was done with MCO. All cats homozygous for the gene are removed from breeding, cats of good type and otherwise good health that are homozygous kept on to produce cats without the gene. By now, at the very least MCO (couldn't say about RAG) have enough N/N cats for HCM/N cats to be a pointless risk in breeding. The breed needs outcrossing and careful management with genetic diversity, regardless of culling a few HCM/N cats.


Not using the cats for breeding does cull them out of the genepool even though it's not culling in the same sense that deer are culled

Additionally if a homozygous cat is bred to a negative you get all heterozygous, which can then go forward for breeding with negatives


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## Maurey (Nov 18, 2019)

OrientalSlave said:


> Not using the cats for breeding does cull them out of the genepool even though it's not culling in the same sense that deer are culled
> 
> Additionally if a homozygous cat is bred to a negative you get all heterozygous, which can then go forward for breeding with negatives


Yes, I've mentioned the selective breeding to N/N genotype done in MCO and culling out heterozygous cats (I.e no immediate/direct culling of diversity) in a later post. Currently there is very little reason to use HCM/N cats in the breed. You cull het cats when you have a large population of non-affected cats. Homozygous cats are typically immediately removed from breeding, as is being done with Sphinx right now - homozygous cats in the breed often die young.


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## Guest (Oct 8, 2021)

@OrientalSlave @Maurey 
Hi,
I understand there is more than one gene/cause for HCM. I was thinking of early onset HCM which is thought to have a genetic component.

If a breed is higher on the risk scale of having early onset HCM, I would think it prudent to scan even if the scans are not 100 percent reliable before breeding.

I don't know as much about Norwegians but still scanning seems better than not if HCM is at higher levels in the breed.

I was wondering if the stud who had his first scan at three years had already been used for breeding.


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## Guest (Oct 8, 2021)

@Tigermoon 
Yes, that is what I thought that the stud would be difficult to keep entire but not allow to mate.
I was wondering why the stud the vet had did not get tested until three years. I understand the scan is not a guarantee but I would prefer an attempt vs just to breed and not try to scan.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

ZaZaEstelle said:


> I did end up asking and this was her response "
> All my breeding cats have been to the RVC for heart scans and are clear. HCM can come in any time though and a scan is a moment in time. I do have the kittens grandfather and great great grand father here. The only thing a breeder can is to end a line that has any doubt it in it at all.
> 
> Seizures, never seen them."
> ...


My concern is how defensive the breeder sounds in her replies. You have a right and a responsibility to ask these questions. She's answering, but sounds very snarky about it.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

How would one approach scanning in a breed where most HCM cases are late onset, ie 10+ years?


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## ZaZaEstelle (Jun 14, 2021)

lorilu said:


> My concern is how defensive the breeder sounds in her replies. You have a right and a responsibility to ask these questions. She's answering, but sounds very snarky about it.


Yeah, I kind of thought this too. She seemed fine before I questioned her on these things, which I have a right to ask and wouldn't she want her kittens going to someone that cares about these things? I did email her that I was still interested, and shes not responded. I'm really hoping she isn't going to stop responding or decide to not sell me anything


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## ZaZaEstelle (Jun 14, 2021)

lorilu said:


> My concern is how defensive the breeder sounds in her replies. You have a right and a responsibility to ask these questions. She's answering, but sounds very snarky about it.


I'm pretty much left it to her to pick the cat for me, as long as its a male. She told me she would let me know which cat I'll have today, and hasn't emailed yet. I am getting quite nervous now. I had my heart set on this and would be very disappointed if she decides to not give me a kitten anymore.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

ZaZaEstelle said:


> I'm pretty much left it to her to pick the cat for me, as long as its a male. She told me she would let me know which cat I'll have today, and hasn't emailed yet. I am getting quite nervous now. I had my heart set on this and would be very disappointed if she decides to not give me a kitten anymore.


I've just messaged you but I'm not sure if you can reply as you've only posted 18 posts and I think you need 25 to be able to message members on here.


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## ZaZaEstelle (Jun 14, 2021)

Tigermoon said:


> I've just messaged you but I'm not sure if you can reply as you've only posted 18 posts and I think you need 25 to be able to message members on here.


I've responded to you. Thank you for helping me


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Maurey said:


> Yes, I've mentioned the selective breeding to N/N genotype done in MCO and culling out heterozygous cats (I.e no immediate/direct culling of diversity) in a later post. Currently there is very little reason to use HCM/N cats in the breed. You cull het cats when you have a large population of non-affected cats. Homozygous cats are typically immediately removed from breeding, as is being done with Sphinx right now - homozygous cats in the breed often die young.


Is this actually how MCO breeders are working? As far as I know you don't breed.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

@OrientalSlave as far as I am aware the MCO BAC hasn't recommend compulsory testing for the A31P mutation. Certainly the registration policy does not include it.

FIFe MCO breed council, and FIFe Health & Welfare commission tabled a proposal at the recent General Assembly for compulsory A31P testing which would have prohibited homozygous cats being registered for breeding or carrier to carrier matings. However this did not pass with the majority required. From what I understand the reason for not voting for the proposal was that this would give a false sense of reassurance that these lines were free of HCM.

The Italian, Norwegian and Finnish FIFe members already have the above rule in place. 
However even that allows N/A31P to N/N matings to occur.


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## Maurey (Nov 18, 2019)

OrientalSlave said:


> Is this actually how MCO breeders are working? As far as I know you don't breed.


Why do I need to have a queen to know what I'm taking about when it comes to basic genetics and genetic diversity? I'm a molecular geneticist and biologist. I might not know the ins and outs of breeding for type, but I know enough about selective breeding for health. I researched the health of the breed I'm interested in extensively, once I knew I wanted an MCO. I had detailed conversations with many breeders, including the one that produced my cats. I casually attend shows and have shown my male neuter. Health aspects of a breed is something a buyer should know, and any person should long long before even vaguely considering breeding seriously.

Fact is, HCM/N cats are affected, not just carriers (1.8 times more likely to get HCM than N/N cats). They're not as high risk as cats with both copies of the gene (homozygous cats that suffer HCM are typically dead by 4, and are 18 times likelier to suffer from the condition), but it's still a significant increase in risk compared to N/N cats. As such, I don't know of a single reputable breeder that has used HCM/N cats since the pool of N/N cats became suitably diverse - in fact, considered a red flag against the breeder in a breeding group I'm in. According to most breeders I've spoken to (including those I've met through breeding groups on FB who are from all over the world) there's absolutely no reason to have an HCM/N cat active breed any more as the test has been around for so long.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> Is this actually how MCO breeders are working? As far as I know you don't breed.


surely this is knowledge one should have prior to breeding?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Being involved in only one breed for a long time, one's knowledge or rather perception becomes polarised. Do breeders of affected breeds continue to scan neutered cats throughout their lives or request that owners scan pet cats throughout their lives?


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

Maurey said:


> I would question how good the specialists were to be quite honest. P.


I will let you question how good Professor Virginia Luis Fuentes is.

She has scanned all my current breeding cats grand parents and great grandparents when they were doing the Winn Foundation funded study into NFO cardiomyopathy. All these cats were clear at 6 + years old.

RVC were most interested in the 8 + year old cats and if you take an 8 +Year old cat with a younger one both are scanned for less than the cost of one younger (under 3 year old). However as I said earlier we waited 9 months for an appointment with them but I has mated the girl by then. . As I am sorry and you can think I am a terrible breeder but I do not think it is ethical to leave her calling and calling. When all of her parents and grandparents were HCM negative on echo at greater than 6 years old.


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## Maurey (Nov 18, 2019)

gskinner123 said:


> Being involved in only one breed for a long time, one's knowledge or rather perception becomes polarised. Do breeders of affected breeds continue to scan neutered cats throughout their lives or request that owners scan pet cats throughout their lives?


Depends on the breeder, and I can only extensively speak on MCO breeders, though I believe Bengal and Sphinx breeders are the same. I know of many who screen themselves that ask for very low prices on their retiring neuters on the contracted condition that the new owner screens their retirees at least every other year (or as needed). I'm less certain about how common requesting screening for kittens is, as a whole; locally, all the breeders with very strict contracts do require it - their contracts include clauses for feeding raw only (or cooked/canned, if the cats' health requires it), having cat proofing on the windows (for which they require proof), and screening cardiac health regularly once the cat reaches a year of age.

If I ever come into the financial position for breeding, myself, I certainly wouldn't sell to someone who didn't know to, or wouldn't be willing to check the heart health of their cats. The breeder of my cats didn't enforce screening (my former stud I sadly inherited when she passed away), but she explained why it's important, especially given no good vet where I live will put an MCO under anaesthesia without a recent heart screen.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

lillytheunicorn said:


> Professor Virginia Luis Fuentes


Is she your closest screening cardio @lillytheunicorn ? I've used Virginia and Luca in the past, the latter being somewhat easier for me to get to. I think the longest I had to wait for an appointment was two months maybe three, but then I did most of mine outside of any research projects that were going on.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

Tigermoon said:


> Is she your closest screening cardio @lillytheunicorn ? I've used Virginia and Luca in the past, the latter being somewhat easier for me to get to. I think the longest I had to wait for an appointment was two months maybe three, but then I did most of mine outside of any research projects that were going on.


She isn't the closest by a long way but was closest to my mentor so we taking a fair few cats between us including the older cats who were part of the CatScan research. Which made it cheaper for us.


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## ZaZaEstelle (Jun 14, 2021)

Hi guys! Just an update, I've been sent a pic, and here he is. Still deciding on a name but can't wait to meet him


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## ZaZaEstelle (Jun 14, 2021)

ZaZaEstelle said:


> Hi guys! Just an update, I've been sent a pic, and here he is. Still deciding on a name but can't wait to meet him


Oh! He's the one in the front


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

ZaZaEstelle said:


> Hi guys! Just an update, I've been sent a pic, and here he is. Still deciding on a name but can't wait to meet him


How cute!! When will he be ready to come to you? Have fun picking a name, it always takes me ages and nearly all of the cats I've had over the last four years were named by a family member or a friend :Hilarious


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## ZaZaEstelle (Jun 14, 2021)

Tigermoon said:


> How cute!! When will he be ready to come to you? Have fun picking a name, it always takes me ages and nearly all of the cats I've had over the last four years were named by a family member or a friend :Hilarious


In December, when he's 14 weeks old
I've been looking for names for a while now, I liked Berlioz at first but that was thought of by my now ex so it doesnt feel the same. I'm sure I'll come up with something by December though


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