# rules about pups not climbing stairs and running ect



## vickieb

Hi all,

More questions about the 'rules' about puppies running, climbing and jumping. Apparently their bones will become damaged if they climb stairs or run or jump up, I understand they are young and they are still forming.... but how can you stop a puppy jumping about, or running ( when they have a maddie ) I also have stairs down to the back garden.... I do not let him go down them, but he sometimes goes up them if its raining and he doesnt want to wee and just wants to go in. 

there are so many do and dont about what they should and should not do.... also, how far can you walk a pup once they are ok to go out?


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## catz4m8z

I think going upstairs is less problematic coz it doesnt jar their joints so much. I have steps outside my house (2 on one side and a flight on the other) and we only ever go up the flight of stairs.
I was lucky in that I could carry mine up and down stairs when they were puppies. Still havent managed to stop my Daxie cross from throwing herself off the sofa and almost into orbit though.


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## Nicky10

It's downstairs is more the problem especially with large/giant breeds. Buster has been up and down stairs since a small puppy no problem but he's only 30lbs.

The general rule with walking is 5 minutes per month of their age. However that's more lead walking they can go along at their own pace offlead for longer


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## newfiesmum

This depends very much on the breed and size of your dog. A small dog, though should not be doing too much too soon, is going to grow up a lot quicker and reach his adult size a lot earlier than a giant. A short run (no more than five minutes) won't hurt and he is going to run about in the house. What you have to avoid is stairs, jumping on the furniture, jumping in the car, etc.

Can you construct some sort of ramp for the outside steps? Might be worth thinking about.

I turned down a house I really liked when I was moving because it had steps up to the garden, but I have giant dogs and you have to be so careful with them.


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## vickieb

I have a lab, so not giant.....do you mean even when full grown you cannot let your dogs up and down stairs...??? I assume Giant is the Newfoundland in the pix?


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## Nicky10

I know giant breeds that do agility can't be that bad for them. Not until at least 2 though preferably older. I would be careful with labs though


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## newfiesmum

vickieb said:


> I have a lab, so not giant.....do you mean even when full grown you cannot let your dogs up and down stairs...??? I assume Giant is the Newfoundland in the pix?


They can do more or less the same as any other dog, when they have stopped growing. But when they are growing, they are so delicate! I don't know about other giant breeds or other newfies, but mine never attempt to go upstairs - they just don't feel safe.

You have to be just as careful with a lab, though, when he is growing. He may not be a giant, but he is still a big dog and his joints could easily be damaged if you are not careful. I know of a lab I meet sometimes on the heath, who got early onset arthritis because the owner was not told how careful you had to be, and exercised him too much as a puppy. He knows now, but too late.


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## Ned Trathan MRCVS

I am a vet at one of Englands leading veterinary orthopaedic centres in Surrey.
This is a common misconception, although this reply is late there is little good information out there so here are the facts for you all.
Hip dysplasia is a developmental condition. There is shown to be a degree of inheritability with the condition. Sweeden requires dogs to be hip scored and they have managed to marginally reduce the incidence of the disease in their country which helps to confirm a partial heritability with the disease. The BVA kennel club scores young dogs which makes sense for breeding estimations, however a lot of dogs that score well when they are young will still develop hip dysplasia when older and would fail the tests if they were tested after a couple of years.
The changes are related to laxity of the hip. The best advice I can give you is to buy from a reputable breeder that hip scores their dogs to reduce the incidence in their lines. It won't give you a guarantee but will improve your chances of visiting our hospital. Climbing stairs does not cause hip dysplasia! 
Exercising dogs to a suitable duration for their age is appropriate, Think of how you might try to stretch your hip if you really wished. The splits. If a dog lived in a house with a slippy floor and kept doing the splits, you could argue that this would exacerbate the condition. Obesity could be partially to blame, excessive weight will place more stress on the hips. Feed a good comercial diet and take your puppies regularly to your primary care vet for a free weight check and advice on your dogs ideal body weight. This will help your dog more than stopping them climbing stairs.
I wish you all the best with your dogs and hope they stay happy and healthy.

Ned


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## catz4m8z

But stairs are def not good for dwarf breeds! (short legs, long body).


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## Shadowrat

Ned Trathan MRCVS said:


> Feed a good comercial diet
> Ned


I'd go along with a lot of what you said, minus this 
Many here raw feed, which is just as good, or better, than a commercial feed. In fact, I've always been told raw fed dogs grow slower than those fed on kibbles, thus reducing the chances of things like pano or 'knuckling over'. 
It is ok to feed kibble, provided it is a high quality kibble that isn't packed full of filler and cereal, but raw is fantastic. Sadly, some vets don't seem to understand the raw thing.


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## SixStar

My pups are always allowed to run about as much as they want - whether in the garden or out on walks - they can run until their batteries are dead! However, I do stick loosely to 5 mins per month of age for lead walking - but they get much more than this offlead.

In regards to stairs, mine aren't allowed up them but only because they do not have access to the upstairs of the house - but I don't think there is a huge problem with occasional/sensible use - it's when pups are thundering up and down them constantly that problems can arise.

Like Newfiesmums dogs, my giant breeds hate stairs - if we ever have to use any when out and about or what have you, or I try and get one of them upstairs for a bath, it's a complete nightmare - I literally have to move their paws for them! I can get the Bernese and Mastiff up with plenty of encouragement, but not a chance in hell of getting the Newfie to use them. He just flops like a dead weight and there's no moving him!

ETA - just realised this is a olddddd thread! Don't know why it was restarted?! I did think it was odd as didn't think OP had a pup!


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## Ned Trathan MRCVS

As with most things in life there is a spectrum of good and bad advice from breeders. In the past it wasn't uncommon for vets to treat dogs with nutritional deficiencies because owners were creating their own diets for their dogs often on breeder recommendation. Since I started my training in 2002 I have yet to see a severe growth problem related to diet, this is likely due to the ready availability of comercial diets nowadays. If you feed a decent comercial diet such as Hills, Royal Canin etc then you can be safe in the knowledge that the diet has been formulated and balanced to meet the requirements of the pet. This could also be recreated at home if the owner was to feed a correctly balanced diet with all the vitamins and minerals. However it is much harder to do, more time consuming and in my opinion unnecessary. The big advantage is that it will probably be more enjoyable for the dog to eat real meat  I Know which diet I would prefer. Sadly most people in this country do not eat a healthy diet, myself included and therefore are unlikely to get it right for their pets as well. For those that feed themselves and their dogs a nice healthy (balanced) diet a commend you. For those that aren't sure on the exact nutritional requirements of their dogs and who haven't read up on the subject I would always recommend a commercial diet to save problems.
Not over feeding your dog is important as i previously mentioned and that kind of answers the other point about high protein in commercial diets. However a raw meat diet is also high in protein. We had a dog in last week for elbow surgery which had a diet at home (and here) of steak with a handful of kibble. Needless to say the dog was grossly overweight. But ate better than I do.
Dwarf breeds climbing stairs, that made me laugh. Maybe if they use stilts...


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## vickieb

hahahahahh  awwwwwwwwwwwwww Ernie boy was only 8 weeks when I asked this question. Think this was my 2nd or 3rd post


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## Tarnus

Ha, I did read this and was wondering if Ern was about to get a new playmate!


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## Blitz

Ned Trathan MRCVS said:


> I am a vet at one of Englands leading veterinary orthopaedic centres in Surrey.
> This is a common misconception, although this reply is late there is little good information out there so here are the facts for you all.
> Hip dysplasia is a developmental condition. There is shown to be a degree of inheritability with the condition. Sweeden requires dogs to be hip scored and they have managed to marginally reduce the incidence of the disease in their country which helps to confirm a partial heritability with the disease. The BVA kennel club scores young dogs which makes sense for breeding estimations, however a lot of dogs that score well when they are young will still develop hip dysplasia when older and would fail the tests if they were tested after a couple of years.
> The changes are related to laxity of the hip. The best advice I can give you is to buy from a reputable breeder that hip scores their dogs to reduce the incidence in their lines. It won't give you a guarantee but will improve your chances of visiting our hospital. Climbing stairs does not cause hip dysplasia!
> Exercising dogs to a suitable duration for their age is appropriate, Think of how you might try to stretch your hip if you really wished. The splits. If a dog lived in a house with a slippy floor and kept doing the splits, you could argue that this would exacerbate the condition. Obesity could be partially to blame, excessive weight will place more stress on the hips. Feed a good comercial diet and take your puppies regularly to your primary care vet for a free weight check and advice on your dogs ideal body weight. This will help your dog more than stopping them climbing stairs.
> I wish you all the best with your dogs and hope they stay happy and healthy.
> 
> Ned


Ned, could you explain further - I am unclear as to WHAT is a common misconception.

Personally I have never limited my young dogs exercise, after all working dogs are normally working at around 6 months. Sheep dogs start very young, obedience dogs are often ready to compete at 6 months, gun dogs will be out and about at a young age, guide dogs will be going everywhere at a young age with their puppy walkers. My pups started going behind the horses at 6 months and gradually increased the distance they are down up to 12 months. Candy has now chosen not to stay down for long and sits on a seat most of the time, Toffee will stay down till she is on her knees! so has to be controlled. Apart from that, which is forced exercise on the road, they were running around outside for as long as I was out there and previous dogs joined the pack for walking as soon as they were vaccinated.

I was always taught to limit giant breeds (which I have never owned) but certainly not small and medium breeds and sensible exercise with large breeds like labs.


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## Shadowrat

Ned Trathan MRCVS said:


> If you feed a decent comercial diet such as Hills, Royal Canin etc then you can be safe in the knowledge that the diet has been formulated and balanced to meet the requirements of the pet.


These are the ingredients in the bag of Hills puppy kibble I was given free when I took my dobe for his shots (which I promptly mixed in with the rat's dry food, but don't even really like them eating):

Whole Grain Corn, Chicken By-Product Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Dried Beet Pulp, Chicken Liver Flavor, Animal Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Lactic Acid, Fish Oil, Flaxseed, Soybean Oil, Iodized Salt, Choline Chloride, Potassium Chloride, L-Lysine, vitamins (L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Vitamin E Supplement, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), Calcium Carbonate, preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid, L-Carnitine, Phosphoric Acid, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract.

Could you tell me why a dog would need to eat the following, for a start:

Corn (the first ingredient in this food, and a cheap filler. Dogs do not need to eat corn, and corn is often linked to health problems)
Chicken By-Product Meal (how is a chicken 'by product meal' better than fresh, real chicken?)
Corn Gluten Meal
Dried Beet Pulp (do dogs need beet pulp?!)
Soybean Oil (why?)

These all scream 'filler', to me. I see no reason why a primarily carnivorous animal would need to eat any of these, nor why they'd benefit from them. 
Kibble is a relatively new invention. In years gone by, dogs ate scraps, they ate kills from shoots, they hunted and killed their own foods, and they did brilliantly. 
Why are people paying huge amounts of money for kibble which actually contains little to no actual meat, and a ton of filler? This is why dogs fed on this kind of kibble poo so much, and so big; this is all the crap their bodies don't need and can't use. Raw fed dogs poo much less, and it is smaller, because their bodies use most of what they're fed.



Ned Trathan MRCVS said:


> However it is much harder to do, more time consuming and in my opinion unnecessary.


Not really. Raw is very simple, and cheap, if you do it right. I wouldn't be doing it if it were overly complicated!
Raid the reduced section at superstores, places like Morrisons are good because they have their own butcher, so often have bones available. You can pick up fresh meat there for pennies.
Many, many people here feed raw, and it is not hard at all, nor is it much more time consuming. I bag up meals for the week, bung them in the freezer, and all I have to do is defrost them. No harder than pouring out a bowl of kibbble. I can feed Dresden pretty cheaply on raw, certainly more cheap than the huge bag of kibble I saw someone spending £36 on at the vet the other day, which would have lasted dresden about a fortnight, certainly far more than it costs to feed him raw.

As for unnecessary? Hardly. Talk to raw feeders about the immense benefits this diet brings to their dogs over kibble.



Ned Trathan MRCVS said:


> Sadly most people in this country do not eat a healthy diet, myself included and therefore are unlikely to get it right for their pets as well.


I don't think this is fair. Its actually easier to provide a balanced diet for a dog than for a human. A dog can get everything it needs from a whole prey model, ie, bones, organs and meat. Thats ALL dogs need.
We can't live on just bones, meat and organs!
As long as you stick to the rough ratio of 80% meat, 10% bone and 10% organ (5% being liver), you can't go far wrong with it.
And many people put more effort into their pet's diet than their own. I know my rats eat better than me a lot of the time!



Ned Trathan MRCVS said:


> For those that aren't sure on the exact nutritional requirements of their dogs and who haven't read up on the subject I would always recommend a commercial diet to save problems.


In the short term, until they have their head around raw, then sure. 
But I'd always urge people to look into raw properly and realise it is actually quite simple and has so many health benefits.



Ned Trathan MRCVS said:


> We had a dog in last week for elbow surgery which had a diet at home (and here) of steak with a handful of kibble. Needless to say the dog was grossly overweight. But ate better than I do.


This is the problem, people think the raw diet is about just throwing a steak to your dog. It isn't. You do have to include bone, organ and meat for it to work, and in certain ratios. But its really not hard. You dont' even have to measure out the amounts you're giving or anything, or have exact perfect amounts every day; it balances out over time as long as you stick roughly to the 80/10/10 ratio.
Im sure most humans don't get the exact recommend levels of every nutrient they require every single day, but if you eat a healthy diet, it balances out over time. Same with raw.

Im not completely anti-kibble, there are some dogs who genuinely prefer it and some owners who can't cope with raw. But it has to be a GOOD kibble, with meat as the main ingredient, not filler like corn and beet! Hills really is a pretty crap kibble, as they go.


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## speug

I'm afraid that I find it difficult to believe anything a vet says while at the same time they are recommending people feed Hills. I'm sorry but if you honestly believe that it is a good food and better than properly researched raw diets then you need to wake up and start reading up on things.
if using MRCVS in your username is supposed to make people take your opinions seriously then you need to stop patronising people and assuming that you know more than people who have no formal qualification in the subject but have extensively researched it, as all it really does is label you as one of these vets who toe the party line and believe that only vets know anything and pet owners are gulliable fools who don't know anything.


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## newfiesmum

I have to say that your advice about climbing stairs coming from a vet on an open forum, is dangerous. Giant growing breeds are extremely delicate creatures and the idea that someone might ignore the research and the advice of experienced breeders and owners just because someone with letters after his name says so, is quite scary. So should I not have stopped my three month old newfie puppy from jumping in and out of the car?

Slippery surfaces, stairs, jumping are all bad for a growing giant breed, who are especially prone to joint problems in the first place.

As to your food recommendations, I do not feed raw though the idea is intriguing, but I have to say that the one time I used Hills for my aging retriever, it made him violently ill.


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## PennyGC

I would strongly advise no stairs - up or down - for as long as possible when the bones/joints are growing... not just for giant breeds but for all breeds. Also no jumping in and out of cars. This plus over exercise - particularly playing with older/bigger dogs and excessive lead walking where the pup can't self regulate, but also long walks off lead where the pup can't just stop or wont just stop because the owner is keeping going.

Excessive exercising and stairs are major contributors to HD in dogs - so definitely worth avoiding. Correct exercise levels and good nutrition go a long way in allowing dogs to grow with healthy joints - worth doing


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## PennyGC

I would strongly advise no stairs - up or down - for as long as possible when the bones/joints are growing... not just for giant breeds but for all breeds. Also no jumping in and out of cars. This plus over exercise - particularly playing with older/bigger dogs and excessive lead walking where the pup can't self regulate, but also long walks off lead where the pup can't just stop or wont just stop because the owner is keeping going.

Excessive exercising and stairs are major contributors to HD in dogs - so definitely worth avoiding. Correct exercise levels and good nutrition go a long way in allowing dogs to grow with healthy joints - worth doing


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## Ned Trathan MRCVS

Blitz: I was referring to the misconception that climbing stairs is in anyway related to hip dysplasia

Shadow Rat: I am pleased to see that you have researched the diet so thoroughly. It is likely that you are feeding a great diet seeing that you have taken the time to do your home work.

The only area that I would disagree is that you state that dogs are almost carnivores. Dogs have a digestive system similar in proportion to our own and hence would be better to be considered omnivores. Hence the carbohydrate you find in most comercial diets such as the corn you mention. For the record, Cats are true carnivores and are quite different to dogs with their requirements and the conditions they may develop if fed an inappropriate diet. I am not an expert on diet and don't profess to be an expert. Without trawling through books I can't comment on the appropriateness of all the elements within the diet It wasn't really the point of me writing on here. I didn't mean to set out to convert anyone and I haven't actually said anything negative about raw diets. just the need to do your homework to make sure you get it right.

back to my initial point.

Newfis Mum:
The reason I put the letters after my name was to highlight that I am a vet and to add some credibility to my post for those that would like to here my opinion. I have heard vets recommend for dogs not to climb stairs in some first opinion practices I work in. There is no evidence for this. I consulted with my colleagues today at work and most had not even heard of this idea that dogs should not be climbing stairs. It is certainly not something we are taught at vet school. 
As a vet I spent 6 years training and have worked in first opinion and now referral practice for 4 years. I spend 80hrs a week working with dogs and would like to share my views with readers here. I am not afraid to put my name behind my opinion because I have read 100s of papers on hip dysplasia, managed many dogs medically and assisted with dozens of total hip replacements to surgically treat the condition. I work with a team of the worlds leading referral vets. We advise owners to confine their pets and avoid stairs during the recovery period from all surgery. There is no evidence based medicine to show that young dogs climbing stairs will harm them. other than if they fall over. We respect the pets in the hospital and the owners wishes and treat them as the owners do at home. Thus if they request raw diets or steak for one lucky dog, thats what they get. 
Do you advise young children or cats not to climb stairs? why would large dogs be any different? It doesn't make any logical sense.
Stairs contributing to hip dysplasia is an old ingrained myth that has no evidence to support it, i was hoping to put peoples minds at rest.
People can choose where they would like to get advise from. Personally if I was sick i would ask the doctor. There will be many experienced pet owners here who will be better at training puppies etc than myself. They have valuable knowledge and experience in many areas to help others. 
No one is going to harm their dog by not allowing them to climb stairs. So it doesn't really matter what they end up believing on this topic.

I haven't really got any more to add on this topic so will refrain from commenting further as don't want to upset anyone. I'm a dog lover as you all are, so please don't take offense to anything i've said. Just trying to help. I would of course be happy to offer advise on any orthopaedic issues that people have with their pets. Hope your all enjoying the nice weather out with your dogs. Ned


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## Dally Banjo

Ned Trathan MRCVS said:


> I would of course be happy to *offer advise on any orthopaedic issues that people have with their pets*. Hope your all enjoying the nice weather out with your dogs. Ned


You might regret saying that Singing:


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## myshkin

B*gger it, I've been a bit cowardly on here, but there is some seriously bad science held as truth on here, the likes of which would be shocking to the doctors and vets and other scientists I know....who aren't in the pockets of big, bad pharma, they do it because they care. And the more I learn about research (in the true sense of the word, as opposed to googling opinions), the more I realise that there is a reason for all those years of study...most of us, me included, don't have the knowledge base to determine what is what, to analyse a study for it's weaknesses, bias etc.

Although a good starting point would be Ben Goldacre. He's in medicine, not vetinerary science, but he explains research well enough for even me to understand the difference between a reliable study and a shoddy one.


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## Ruff Justice

Okay, I have a question 

All of this 5mins walking per month of age/ jumping/ stair-climbing stuff is included in the Kennel Club new puppy owners handbook. So I assumed this type of information they would have sourced from the BVA, no?

I guess what I want to know now is where exactly do they get this from?


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## sid&kira

We got Kira at 14 weeks and never followed the 5 min rule, the stairs jumping about rule, fed puppy food etc. Simple because we didnt know about these rules (and figured puppy food was a rip off )

She was walking to the dog park (2 hour walk!) at about 7 months old, and started working in harness at 8 months old, she's been running up the stairs since we brought her home... strangely... she seems fine!

Limit exercise for young pups yes, but there is no way we would have been able to stay sane if kiz had been restricted when she was 6 months plus!

we've had keyu from 6 months and done exactly the same, walked until tired, started working about 7/8 months - she's also fine

IMO if a dog is going to get HD it's going to get HD, whether you restrict exercise or not


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## myshkin

Ruff Justice said:


> Okay, I have a question
> 
> All of this 5mins walking per month of age/ jumping/ stair-climbing stuff is included in the Kennel Club new puppy owners handbook. So I assumed this type of information they would have sourced from the BVA, no?
> 
> I guess what I want to know now is where exactly do they get this from?


I am positively, definitely, not going there, there's a whole can of worms I'm not touching with a bargepole, if you'll pardon the mixed metaphors.

All I can say is that those of us with working types (types, not breeds) have no such concerns. I asked my very knowleadgable, dog loving vet at the time about the "5 minute per month" rule, and he asked me if I really thought that a working bred collie would be ok with 30 minutes a day at 5 months old.....the answer is obvious, and I'd never choose a dog that was any other way.


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## ozrex

This is an area in which I am TOTALLY ignorant. I do recognise the genetic component to hip dysplasia but understand that there's an environmental component, too.

I just wanted to chuck an anecdote in, NOT as any kind of scientific or even pseudo-scientific study; just an annecdote.

Rex comes from a litter in which two bitches have hip dysplasia. The two bitches were owned by two gentlemen who were VERY careful with the bitches from when they got them at seven weeks of age. They were lifted into the back of the car and limited in their exercise according to the age/walking guide thingy. Both bitches developed dysplasia when quite young and had to have surgery. Lucky the owners are wealthy.

The locals thought this fussing was very funny and let the other dogs from the litter jump into utes/on and off quad bikes and run until they stopped. None of the other dogs have any obvious hip problems.

I wonder if the feeding had more to do with it or if it's just chance. The two bitches were very well fed, they were glossy and bigger than the other dogs at a younger age. NOT I hasten to add fat. The other dogs were rough sort of farm dogs, lived outside and were fed cheap kibble from the grain-store. They were slower to grow and had rough, duller fur.

Probably just coincidence.


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## Ruff Justice

ozrex said:


> This is an area in which I am TOTALLY ignorant. I do recognise the genetic component to hip dysplasia but understand that there's an environmental component, too.


Yes that's as far as my understanding goes too. I have a four month old, very active pup who will only sit down when crated so that's why I'm interested 

No one on the thread has supplied any links that would support either argument, (show me the evidence so I can make up my own mind and all that jazz!) so I'm still no further forward really


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## myshkin

ozrex said:


> This is an area in which I am TOTALLY ignorant. I do recognise the genetic component to hip dysplasia but understand that there's an environmental component, too.
> 
> I just wanted to chuck an anecdote in, NOT as any kind of scientific or even pseudo-scientific study; just an annecdote.
> 
> Rex comes from a litter in which two bitches have hip dysplasia. The two bitches were owned by two gentlemen who were VERY careful with the bitches from when they got them at seven weeks of age. They were lifted into the back of the car and limited in their exercise according to the age/walking guide thingy. Both bitches developed dysplasia when quite young and had to have surgery. Lucky the owners are wealthy.
> 
> The locals thought this fussing was very funny and let the other dogs from the litter jump into utes/on and off quad bikes and run until they stopped. None of the other dogs have any obvious hip problems.
> 
> I wonder if the feeding had more to do with it or if it's just chance. The two bitches were very well fed, they were glossy and bigger than the other dogs at a younger age. NOT I hasten to add fat. The other dogs were rough sort of farm dogs, lived outside and were fed cheap kibble from the grain-store. They were slower to grow and had rough, duller fur.
> 
> Probably just coincidence.


Or if, as is the case with many human diseases/conditions, exercise is the solution, not the problem?


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## Shadowrat

Ned Trathan MRCVS said:


> The only area that I would disagree is that you state that dogs are almost carnivores. Dogs have a digestive system similar in proportion to our own and hence would be better to be considered omnivores. Hence the carbohydrate you find in most comercial diets such as the corn you mention.


Well, it is actually up in the air about what category dogs fall into. Dogs in the wild live on primarily meat, some do consider them carnivores, others omnivores. The fact that they CAN eat vegetable matter doesn't mean they NEED to. There is nothing in corn that dogs need in their bodies or need to be healthy. They can eat it and not drop dead, but that is very different to actually NEEDING it in the diet. 
So, I think why fill my dog's meals with things they cannot use and do not need when he can eat raw and use everything in the food? And especially why pay out for foods that are full of this junk? Seems a waste of money, to me, and doesn't provide any benefit to my dog.

Being _able_ to eat something and needing to eat that thing in your diet are two different things.


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## PennyGC

there are huge misconceptions here... one of which is that 'working dogs' need masses of exercise from a very early age and it's a shame that vets are encouraging over exercise... I have working dogs and really they don't.

The 5minute rule per month is a good one - it doesn't mean they have to sit in a crate quietly for the rest of the day, they can play, run etc as long as they don't get over tired or play rough with bigger/older dogs... dogs can have too much stimulation, physcially, and it's as important to teach them to 'chill' as to let them race about... also import is mental stimulation. The 5 minute rule is lead exercise where the dog has no choice but to follow at someone else's pace.

My dogs play for hours, even as pups, but we don't go 'yomping' until they're physically up for it.

As for HD there are many factors which contribute to it.

Hereditary, feeding (over as well as under), early neutering, excessive exercise.

Some dogs will have sound hips (or appear to have) whatever treatment they receive, it's many a dog who's been hip scored because they've done well at agility or similar and someone wants to use them and then it's discovered the joints are practically wrecked, but the dog has learned to cope.

I've seen dogs with sound hips that have been ruined by over exercise too early.

We owe it to our dogs to give them the best chance of good health imo


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## Yomper

If a dog gets HD how can it be proved it was going up and down stairs that did it? I know a few people on my walks with dogs who have HD and they live in bungalows.
I believe as has been mentioned already that poor diet and lack of excercise are to blame most of the time.
I walk my dog 2 proper walks a day plus a quick 15 minute one at night every day without fail come rain/sleet/snow i also see other regular walkers who don't shirk the bad weather yet come a nice dry day there is 3 or 4 times as many dogs. I would place a big bet that the a much higher percentage of regular walkers dogs get less HD and less overweight that the other dogs. I think it makes some owners (not all) blame the stairs as the cause and not there own fault for not giving the dog regular excercise and possibly even a poor diet or just general overfeeding.


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## PennyGC

as I said, HD is multi causational, which means that a number of factors are responsible - who knows if the people in the bungalows let their dogs jump in and out of cars, run up and down steps to the beach etc etc or of course they could have bought puppies with genetic HD... it's impossible to tell the full causes of many cases. Diet is also important - as I have stated, you are correct under/over feeding can be to blame.
HOWEVER, it's important that we reduce the risks rather than ignore the risks and 'hope for the best'.
I don't want to make anyone feel guilty - sometimes dogs will get HD through no one's fault because of the complexities. Breeders and owners should do their best to minimise the risks - breeders by using hip scored dogs and ensuring good health and care, owners by feeding, exercising etc also correctly.


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## newfiesmum

PennyGC said:


> as I said, HD is multi causational, which means that a number of factors are responsible - who knows if the people in the bungalows let their dogs jump in and out of cars, run up and down steps to the beach etc etc or of course they could have bought puppies with genetic HD... it's impossible to tell the full causes of many cases. Diet is also important - as I have stated, you are correct under/over feeding can be to blame.
> HOWEVER, it's important that we reduce the risks rather than ignore the risks and 'hope for the best'.
> I don't want to make anyone feel guilty - sometimes dogs will get HD through no one's fault because of the complexities. Breeders and owners should do their best to minimise the risks - breeders by using hip scored dogs and ensuring good health and care, owners by feeding, exercising etc also correctly.


You are so right. Anything and everything should be done to reduce the risks of any joint damage, be that diet, exercise or just simple care. It is not just HD which concerns me, but any sort of joint damage.

Joshua got arthritis in his knees at only 16 months old. I spent many months wondering if I was maybe not careful enough with him, whether it could have been avoided. But I know I was careful and I know he probably would have got it regardless, yet none of his littermates nor either of his parents have a single problem.

I get upset when people try to discard what has been accepted and worked for years, just because there is no scientific study.


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## sid&kira

Sorry I still say its mainly genetics, then diet, with exercise playing a very tiny part of it

Of course it's different for Giant breeds, but for medium breeds and smaller I would say exercise is way down the list in causes of HD

When I had just started working Kira, I asked around about getting her hip scored as if she had bad hips I thought I shouldnt work her, and i was advised by very experienced people that even if she did have bad hips I should still work her as usual, because the muscle mass gained by lots of exercise supports the joint.

Obviously you shouldnt run a pup into the ground, but walking at a normal pace for more than 30 minutes is highly unlikely to cause a pup to develop HD IMO, just a bit of common sense is needed, dont power walk, dont let pup get too tired etc etc


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## newfiesmum

sid&kira said:


> Sorry I still say its mainly genetics, then diet, with exercise playing a very tiny part of it
> 
> Of course it's different for Giant breeds, but for medium breeds and smaller I would say exercise is way down the list in causes of HD
> 
> When I had just started working Kira, I asked around about getting her hip scored as if she had bad hips I thought I shouldnt work her, and i was advised by very experienced people that even if she did have bad hips I should still work her as usual, because the muscle mass gained by lots of exercise supports the joint.
> 
> Obviously you shouldnt run a pup into the ground, but walking at a normal pace for more than 30 minutes is highly unlikely to cause a pup to develop HD IMO, just a bit of common sense is needed, dont power walk, dont let pup get too tired etc etc


I think it is the kind of exercise that is important as well. Bad joints can get worse with inactivity, but at the same time you don't want too much strain. Giant breeds, at least newfies, grow 5 times faster than any other breed, reaching two thirds of their adult size by the time they are eight months old. That is why it is so important not to let them put any strain on their growing joints.


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## sid&kira

newfiesmum said:


> I think it is the kind of exercise that is important as well. Bad joints can get worse with inactivity, but at the same time you don't want too much strain. Giant breeds, at least newfies, grow 5 times faster than any other breed, reaching two thirds of their adult size by the time they are eight months old. That is why it is so important not to let them put any strain on their growing joints.


yea, see my lot have never been able to go offlead, so they had to do onlead walks, but they've not suffered for it


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## lozzibear

I try and avoid Arrow running up and down the stairs, but we have stairs to get out to the garden, so I can't always avoid it. I do carry him up and down as much as possible though. I read a while back about how they shouldn't use stairs until they are over 6 months of age... there is no way I will be able to carry him up and down stairs when he is that size and weight... 

As for exercise, I am strict with the 5 minute rule for on lead exercise, but I am much more relaxed about off lead. He runs around like a loony in the garden, so I don't worry if he runs around like that in the park instead. 

One thing I do wonder about, is that we are told not to let them jump etc, but what about if they jump about themselves? Arrow does that, he jumps about like a wee rabbit, and also launches himself at Jake's head...


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## PennyGC

I have seen the effect of over exercise on a young border collie and fair enough it was excessive but it gave the dog horrendous hips not caused (owner has admitted) by genetic HD, but by the over exercise... I doubt it's the only one. Stairs and jumping in and out of cars are recognised danger areas. Whilst genetic HD is certainly the main cause of HD in our dogs its not the only cause and mild HD can be made worse by over exercising. 

Yes running around playing and even doing a few steps or jumps on their own shouldn't be a problem, as long as they're not doing it for hours every day, dogs do need to get used to rough ground and jumping if their senses and systems are to develop properly, I let my pups play on a 'wobble board' which they love... but it's certainly well documented that exercise (and diet) are factors in contributing to, and causing, HD, so why take the risks? A bit of care for a few months and the dog has the rest of his/her life for us to enjoy together


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## newfiesmum

lozzibear said:


> I try and avoid Arrow running up and down the stairs, but we have stairs to get out to the garden, so I can't always avoid it. I do carry him up and down as much as possible though. I read a while back about how they shouldn't use stairs until they are over 6 months of age... there is no way I will be able to carry him up and down stairs when he is that size and weight...
> 
> As for exercise, I am strict with the 5 minute rule for on lead exercise, but I am much more relaxed about off lead. He runs around like a loony in the garden, so I don't worry if he runs around like that in the park instead.
> 
> One thing I do wonder about, is that we are told not to let them jump etc, but what about if they jump about themselves? Arrow does that, he jumps about like a wee rabbit, and also launches himself at Jake's head...


Jumping like you describe, he's not going to land hard on his legs is he? That is the point about cars, I think, the jolt.



PennyGC said:


> I have seen the effect of over exercise on a young border collie and fair enough it was excessive but it gave the dog horrendous hips not caused (owner has admitted) by genetic HD, but by the over exercise... I doubt it's the only one. Stairs and jumping in and out of cars are recognised danger areas. Whilst genetic HD is certainly the main cause of HD in our dogs its not the only cause and mild HD can be made worse by over exercising.
> 
> Yes running around playing and even doing a few steps or jumps on their own shouldn't be a problem, as long as they're not doing it for hours every day, dogs do need to get used to rough ground and jumping if their senses and systems are to develop properly, I let my pups play on a 'wobble board' which they love... but it's certainly well documented that exercise (and diet) are factors in contributing to, and causing, HD, so why take the risks? A bit of care for a few months and the dog has the rest of his/her life for us to enjoy together


I have seen a labrador aged six with his joints damaged through over exercise when growing. The owner thought, as many do, big dog = loads of exercise.


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## lozzibear

I think it is just about being 'sensible', rather than hard and fast sticking to rules. I had Arrow out yesterday, off lead most of the time, for longer than the five minute rule. He was no where near exhausted though, and I am not worried he has overdone it. I would never keep him out long enough for him to be exhausted, or even tired. I think exercise is important, and it is finding the right amount that is both beneficial and not over doing it. 

A guy who lives near me though, walked his Lab for over an hour when she was a teeny pup and now, she is 7/8 months old, and at the weekends she is out for over 2 hours... She only gets proper walks at the weekend, and runs around like a bullet, playing rough with some of the dogs. And, she is very overweight, even at her young age and she wobbles! I find it sad, because if she wobbles at this age, and the owner doesn't see anything wrong with it, then what will she be like as she grows. 

Also, just a wee rant, but I got chastised by someone at a fun dog show because I was standing in the agility queue with Arrow, and my older dog, Jake. This random woman comes up questioning me, in an angry manner, about if I am taking my pup on the agility... when I told her of course not, and I am taking my older dog, she said 'Oh good, because if you were I was going to shoot you'  People like that madden me, because she made a terrible assumption... nevermind I was with my friend and her dog, so even if I didn't have my older dog, I could have been simply waiting in line with her talking... but, I also had my older dog, surely she would have assumed it was him I was doing it with, and IF I went to do it with Arrow, then pull me up for it... Oh, I was fuming. 

I know that is a bit off topic, but this thread made me think of it, and I felt the need for a rant


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## Sarah1983

lozzibear said:


> I think it is just about being 'sensible', rather than hard and fast sticking to rules. I had Arrow out yesterday, off lead most of the time, for longer than the five minute rule. He was no where near exhausted though, and I am not worried he has overdone it. I would never keep him out long enough for him to be exhausted, or even tired. I think exercise is important, and it is finding the right amount that is both beneficial and not over doing it.


This is the way I see it to be honest. I've had Spencer out on the fields longer than the 5 minute rule allows for before. He mooches around at his own pace on the long line, sometimes he runs, most of the time he trots. Sometimes he jumps a ditch or a fallen tree, sometimes he doesn't. I'm not overly worried about it.

He's 13 months old now and I'm still not sure when the whole 5 minutes per month rule is supposed to end. Not that his previous owners took any notice of it, he was out for a 2 hour group walk when he must have only been a few months old and I know he's been climbing stairs from a young age too. So could well be that the damage has already been done.


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## pinkpuppy

I haven't really got any more to add on this topic so will refrain from commenting further as don't want to upset anyone. I'm a dog lover as you all are said:


> Hello Ned..... i would love to chat with you!! My 8 month old black lab pup is currently waiting to see an orthopedic surgeon on 2nd July for possible osteochondrosis (initially diagnosed as Hip Dysplasia).
> 
> Quite frankly i feel like the worst dog fur mummy in the world... i didn't over walk him, he has had limited access to stairs as i live in an upside down house so no need to go downstairs.... But he has slipped around on wooden floors playing with the kids.... he has had daily access to a grassy hill and chasing rabbits as this is his back garden..... i have fed him fresh meat as well as his dry food and i have read that he maybe had too much nutrients that caused this...
> 
> His parents were hip scored/elbow scored and all low. Our vet says we are just unlucky but i can't help but blame myself
> 
> I will get all these answers in a week and a half but anything you can throw my way in the mean time would be great.... even if you say that it is my fault,,, at least i will be braced for when i see the surgeons...
> 
> Also if you could give positive stories of pups after surgery that would really make me feel better as currently i just feel so sorry for him and hate to think he is miserable as he is not allowed to do anything.
> 
> Thank you in advance x


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## PennyGC

just to remind some people that the 5 minute 'rule' is for ON LEAD exercising... a bit of running around off lead is outside this 'rule' and if not overdone or involves rough play with older/bigger dogs is fine


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## Colette

My take one the HD issue is that I wouldn't take unnecessary risks - but nor would I be paranoid. 
For example, restricting access to the main stairs I would generally agree with, but I wouln't be concerned about a pup having to do a step or two out the back door. The 5 min rule I would consider approximate - If my basic walk round the block takes 5 mins over the prescribed time, then no biggie - but it won't be an hour over the prescribed time, nor would it be a be a forced route-march.

I appreciate there is limited "evidence" on exactly what may or may not be a potential contributer, but surely better to err on the side of caution.

As for diet - I'm sorry I don't buy the "dogs are omnivores" argument, nor do I think we should be filling dogs up on foods made primarily from ingredients that they do not need.

ALL canine species are carnivores - hunters and / or svacengers. Where wild canids are concerned if prey runs low they starve - they don't just fill up on plants! 
Looking at domestic dogs specifically - their teeth and jaws are clearly geared towards tearing meat and crushing / crunching through bone. Their digestive tract is relatively short, as is normal in carnivores (as opposed to long in herbivores or medium in true omnivores) and the digestive enzymes etc produced are primarily geared towards meat products - not plant matter. Even their behaviour is an obvious clue - dogs are primarily geared towards hunting behaviours - scenting or sighting "prey", chasing, catching, killing, tearing apart, and of course stealing food and begging (scavenging behaviours).

Of course, this does not mean they always live exclusively 100% on meat - why should it? It is the majority of their diet that matters. A canine may certainly consume the odd mouthful of grass, or the stomach contents of any prey small enough to be eaten whole - but that tiny amount does not an omnivore make!

It could also be pointed out that a dogs nutritional requirements (in terms of energy, major nutrient groups, vitamins and minerals) can be totally met by animal-products alone. Meat, bone and offal - in appropriate ratios as previously discussed. They do not need anything that can't be found in a dead animal. 
They in fact have NO dietary requirement for carbohydrates.

I have nothing against good quality commercial diets; but I don't consider a food made up primarily of cheap, unnecessary carbohydrates, with various ingredients no canine - wild or domestic - needs or would ever naturally consume, plus a bulk load of added extras that reads like a chemical formulae to be a "good" diet!
As with the "natural" diet thing - I don't mind a small amount of non-meat in a commercial food (to account for the lack of bone etc) so long as it is unlikely to be harmful; but not when it makes up the bulk of the food.


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## Ned Trathan MRCVS

Hi Pink Puppy,
you are not to blame for your dog developing OCD. This is a form of cartilage dysplasia. dysplasia means abnormal development of the cartilage. It occurs in young growing dogs. The most common site is in the shoulder, but we also find it not uncommonly in the elbow stifle (knee) and hock (ankle). I assume that as you said your dog was mistakenly diagnosed with hip dysplasia that it is a hind limb lameness.
OCD starts as an imperfection in the cartilage which coats the bone inside the joint. It can later peel off and create a flap. 
Treatment options include 1) debriding (removing) the damaged cartilage, 2) debridement and replacement with a section of cartilage from another joint from a place that doesn't involve weight baring and transplanting it to the affected site, or3) debridement and insertion of a synthetic plug of cartilage into the affected area. The best treatment option will depend on the severity and extent of the lesion.
There is no evidence to link any specific exercise or diet to the condition. We tend to only see it in certain breeds of dogs, so it is believed there is a strong genetic component. although can't rule out environmental factors as having some influence.
Good luck at the vets, I hope all goes well, Ned


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## PennyGC

Actually Ned I believe that it's considered that there's a strong connection between OCD and diet :-( Like HD not enough is known but OCD is probably more about diet and exercise - too much good stuff too soon is what I've gathered a major factor although genetics is likely to pay a part also....

It's best to avoid massive growth in pups (particularly large ones) as their tissues don't always keep up with the growth and slower and steadier is better, more what their bodies are designed for ....

So, we do need to be careful of our pups exercise AND diet as well as how well they've been bred


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## Alice Childress

Ned Trathan MRCVS said:


> *Do you advise young children or cats not to climb stairs? why would large dogs be any different? It doesn't make any logical sense.*
> 
> *Personally if I was sick i would ask the doctor.*


I do not know enough about the subject to comment specifically but I am a scientist (of sorts - phd to come ) and I do understand that there are different schools of thought regarding HD and the vet profession only represents one of those. I respect your experience, but it is just one view point. In the same way that I am always open minded when I see a medical Doctor and do not simply take their word as gospel. It is easy to say "when I am sick, I ask the doctor" but that doesn't actually mean you are asking the best person. Personally I'd rather ask the biologist or parasitologist or so on. Doctors are medics. They are not scientists and there is a big difference. (Just to add I think good Doctors, as good vets, are worth their weight in gold... Sadly I don't see them very often).

The difference between growing children or kittens climbing stairs is because large breeds grow far faster and much more than your examples. A child takes 15+ years to reach full height, a puppy has done a big chunk of it's growning by 6 months. If a child went from 1 - 7 stone in 6 months, we may well be more concerned about their growing bones as well.



myshkin said:


> Although a good starting point would be Ben Goldacre. He's in medicine, not vetinerary science, but he explains research well enough for even me to understand the difference between a reliable study and a shoddy one.


Be careful of Goldacre. He's considered a joke in the scientific circles I've worked in (he is a medic, not a scientist and it shows).


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## LexiLou2

Few points, I pick Aria up later this week who is a lab, my living room in on the middle floor and for as long as we can manage she will be carried up and down the stairs, because to be honest I would rather do everything in my power to reduce the chance of HD. I will be following the 5 minute rule (ish) for all on lead exercise, off lead she will be allowed to run around with Lexi and Bosley as much as she wants within reson.

Would I allow a child to run up and down stairs, well no I wouldn't children are about 2 ish before they are allowed to walk up and down stairs, I certainly wouldn't be allowing a wobbley toddler to walk up and down stairs, plus children grow and develop at a much slower rate, however my brother as a teenager grew too fast for his joints and was at the time advised to avoid things that jilted his joints so pavement walking, walking up and down stairs etc, not too different to the rules we apply to a pup really.

With regards to diet and dogs needing carbohydrates, I've said it before but can someone please tell Lexi that, she has a total ceral allergy, is very very iffy with rice and pasta and potato is out, she has no carbohydrates in her diet, neither does Bosley and Aria won't when she comes home. This has been discussed with my vet in length, my dogs have a clean bill of health, he supports my diet choice of raw feeding (BARF model) and wishes more of his clients had dogs in such good condition, which bearing in mind Lexi has severe food and enviromental allergies is a huge compliment, so I'm sorry dogs do not need cereals, rices, pasta potato etc


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## Ned Trathan MRCVS

PennyGC said:


> Actually Ned I believe that it's considered that there's a strong connection between OCD and diet :-( Like HD not enough is known but OCD is probably more about diet and exercise - too much good stuff too soon is what I've gathered a major factor although genetics is likely to pay a part also....


penny I would have to say I strongly disagree with this statement

Today im quiet at work so I have personally spoken to two of Europe's leading speacilist in orthopaedics whilst i've been in theatre with them. I have also searched the internet for any reasonable evidence regarding OCD evidence of diet and exercise. I have consulted three leading textbooks on the diseases. The opinions where, that they had never heard of a link of stair climbing with hip dysplasia and that the only evidence that has been published for OCD and Hip dysplasia is evidence of a genetic basis and of obesity (over feeding, but not one diet vs another) as a risk factor.
I'm not saying that there is no impact from environmental factors. But there is certainly no evidence published of any merit to link a specific diet or exercise. I would love for you to show me some. i sadly can not show you evidence to disprove your theory as this topic has never been researched! Across all the research I have done, the only mention of exercise from any credible source is regarding management of the conditions to help with pain relief and to allow healing after surgery.

Look at wild dogs or farm dogs. the puppies play boisterously, then they sleep then they play, as they get bigger they sleep less and exercise more. I never advise client on a set amount of exercise, just advise a bit of common sense not to over tire them.


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## Ned Trathan MRCVS

Colette said:


> As for diet - I'm sorry I don't buy the "dogs are omnivores" argument, nor do I think we should be filling dogs up on foods made primarily from ingredients that they do not need.


I am not an expert on diet but I just read through some relevant chapters on diet from: 
Canine and Feline Nutrition, A resource for companion animal veterinarians. Third Edition 2011 Pg 51-52

"Microbial digestion of dietary fiber in the cecum and colon of nonruminant herbivores contributes significantly to the nutrient intake and balance of these animals. In comparison, carnivorous species such as the cat and mink have a vestigial cecum, and the length of their large intestine is relatively short. Relative to body size, the dogs cecum is not as large as the pigs, but it is somewhat larger than the cats. This observation is consistent with the fact that the dog has adapted to consuming a diet that is more omnivorous in nature than that of the cat. The extent to which bacterial digestion of dietary fiber in the cecum and colon contributes to energy balance in these species is small compared to the contribution for nonruminant herbivore species."

Dogs are not true carnivores like the cat. The have taste receptors for sweet foods, hence the problem with them eating chocolate etc whereas generally cats will not eat sweet sugary foods. I'm not saying you should give your dog doughnuts or chocolate, but giving some carbohydrate such as plain rice or mixing carb into a commercial diet isnt wrong for keeping them healthy if its part of a balanced diet. Please do avoid left over chinese etc though on a regular basis as feeding a very fatty diet can cause pancreatitis, obesity etc.

At the end of the day:
they are all your own dogs, you have the choice to raise them as you see fit. The fact people are on here is encouraging as shows how many dedicated animals lovers there are. 
Its up to each person where they want to get advise from. Hopefully i've provided another opinion for those that are looking for answers.


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