# Months of training yet still pulling on leash



## Labrador_Owner (May 29, 2010)

Hi everyone.

I'm the owner of a 10 month old Labrador and I have a real leash pulling problem. He still pulls on it it like there's no tomorrow and I've been trying to train him out of it for several months now and I've barely seen any improvement.


I've tried all the different techniques I've heard, read and watched about: Stopping and becoming a motionless if he pulls ahead until the leash slackens, changing direction, patting my thigh so he returns to the correct position, praising him if he does walk by my side, standing in front of him and making myself big if he walks ahead etc.

It just doesn't seem to be working and I'm starting to despair a bit. Especially as he's getting quite big now and is getting increasingly more difficult to control. I actually had a bit of scare the other day because he pulled so hard the collar slipped off and he ran on to the road past some oncoming traffic.


What I have noticed, is that on the return journey back from the park, he does seem slightly better. Its almost like he's smelt everything he's need to smell on the route and so doesn't pull as much. Although its still quite bad.


What can I do guys? I've heard about choke collars....but I'm not sure if I'm keen on them. I don't really want to hurt him. But if he isn't responding to training, I may have no choice.


Advice much appreciated. Cheers.


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## Bearpaw (Dec 10, 2009)

Hi there.Sounds like he had a lucky escape on the road! You could try holding a treat in your hand whilst walking him (with your arm across your body so it is near to his head but just out of reach).remember to give him the treat once in a while for being a good boy.Labs are usually pretty food orientated,so this may work.
You may also benefit from halti/gentle leader type collar,as this will help with the pulling and be less of a strain on you.
You say he seems better on the return of your walk,is he walked alot? could it be that he gets really excited about going out? Obviously at this age you dont want to walk too much but maybe several shorter walks rather than one big walk may also help.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Get one of these: www.friendsoffido.co.uk Gentle Leader Easy Walk Harness Surefit Harness Premier and Breakaway Collars Nylon Leads spill less bowls Dog Toys Pets Dog Accessories - Easy walk Harness - Surefit Harness Premier Collers Leads Spill less bowls Toys


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Labrador_Owner said:


> ...10-MO Lab... He still pulls... like there's no tomorrow and I've been trying
> to train him... for several months... and I've barely seen any improvement.
> I've tried...
> Stopping and becoming a motionless if he pulls ahead until the leash slackens,
> ...


hey, blab! :--)

is he still intact? getting him desexed can help, in part by reducing his excitability to every scent left by other dogs; 
it will not be gone, just less-frantic to get there.

a FRONT-clip H-harness with a ring on the chest where the straps meet, can be a terrific management-tool - at 10-MO his strength 
is considerably greater than Urs, and struggling to resist it is not worth the worry + effort, IMO. 
any H-harness that fits well with a chest-ring is fine; name-brand is immaterial. 
i like the *Premier Pet-Products Sure-Fit harness* only b/c they really do FIT every doggone dog i put them on... 
they adjust all over the body, and are durable + not very co$tly, either.

i no longer recommend their E-Z Walker - i don;t like the martingale-style loop on the chest, that pulls tight when
the leash tightens - i worry about sustained pressure over the shoulder girdle and brachial nerve-bundle, under the forearm. 
dogs have no collarbone, the shoulders are held by connective tissue + muscle only - and the brachial never-bundle is crucial to normal foreleg function.

teaching him SEPARATELY to walk to heel or to LLW / loose-leash walk... THEN slowly introducing this to real walks, 
will give U a good LLW - U cannot take it on the road before it is mastered entirely under controllable circs. 

happy B-Mod, 
--- terry


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## Labrador_Owner (May 29, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> hey, blab! :--)
> 
> is he still intact? getting him desexed can help, in part by reducing his excitability to every scent left by other dogs;
> it will not be gone, just less-frantic to get there.
> ...


He has been neutered yes. That's helped slightly.

Interesting about those types of harnesses. I like the look of the Gentle Leader and the H Harness. May have to invest in one. Have you guys had more success using these types of harnesses instead of a traditional collar?


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I ve tried every technique in the book plus harnesses, halti's you name it ive tried it and . . . . . . . . . . he's 10years molly is just as bad she's 20 months.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Labrador_Owner said:


> Have you guys had more success using these types of harnesses instead of a traditional collar?


if by traditional collar U mean a choke-collar, *definitely * the harness works better - 
a choke-collar takes a lo-o-o-ong time to teach LLW or Heel, and is rarely used properly by any pet-owner  even with help. 
remembering the leash is LOOSE on the choke all the time that the dog is in position, and to use SHORT firm tugs is not simple; 
its an incessant non-stop conversation of tension + release, + APOs get distracted + forget.

the front-clip harness needs no habituation, *cannot* pinch skin or pull hair out / pull on hair, cut hair short, or *CLOSE-OFF 
the dogs airway dangerously*, like a choke-collar. the one thing that U do need to be aware of, is to have it SNUG 
on the body, so that the harness does not slither around - No Fingers should fit between the harness + dog - 
and be sure BUCKLES are not in armpits - the skin there is delicate + sensitive.

please check his TAG-Collar and adjust it so that it cannot go off over his head again - 
ONE finger between dog + collar is plenty of leeway, he is not a rapidly growing infant, and U can check his collar daily, too; 
i put them */\----* up *-----/\* near the ears, not halfway to the chest - 
that only makes the collar BIGGER in relation to the dogs backskull, thats how it came off. 

if he is not a typical Lab but has a narrow backskull *a sighthound style martingale* will NOT come off - 
Mrs Bones Custom made Dog Collars, Leashes, couplers, engraved tags, Martingale Collars-Made in the USA, Standard clip and Martingale adjustable collars 
the dog in the photo is wearing hers too-low, tho - 
How a Martingale Collar Works

enjoy, 
--- terry


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## ScottieDog (Feb 23, 2008)

Sounds the same as what we went through with our collie. The dog is excited and knows he is out for walk and this is his only focus the return trip home he is much more relaxed and therefore better on the lead.

1st Get a harness for the dog makes it much safer for you and the dog easier to handle.

2nd just take it slow talk to him nice and calm (I can't be bothered with all those tips you read about) and keep yourself calm tell him steady and get his attention with his fav tasty but don't give him it until you happy with him.


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## sketch (Sep 19, 2009)

As mad as it sounds, try some focus work with your woofer, if you can get good focus you can get good heel work
xx


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

sketch said:


> As mad as it sounds, try some focus work with your woofer, if you can get good focus you can get good heel work
> xx


I completely agree!

My Lab used to pull like a steam engine and I found that using a halti or a gentle leader didnt make the slightest difference. I didnt know about T-touch or the Mekuti harness back then otherwise I would have tried that; but what did help was clicker training. After months of pulling I had him heeling nicely within a very short period!

There are dozens of threads discussing CT, if you havent tried it then give it a go.

You might find Pamela Marxsens Watch Me game to be a useful starting point for teaching your dog to focus on you: YouTube - pamelamarxsen's Channel


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## sketch (Sep 19, 2009)

Well I believe and its just my opinion, unless you have focus, you have trouble training a dog to do anything at all...."You cannot train a Dogs Butt ", they have to be looking to you not away with there butt in view lol
xx


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## Deb (Jan 28, 2009)

been there - done that!!! Tried every method without success - until i found the mekuti harness. Dont know how it works but it does for my collie from the minute we put it on. Must have spent a fortune on haltis, gentle leaders etc. but money well spent for the mekuti:thumbup::thumbup:


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## PennyH (Dec 30, 2008)

A Gencon worked for our Lab x springer - I am not joking when I say a 2 year old could walk her on one of these. They are absolutely fantastic!!!
Worth a look definitely!
Good luck.


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## Guest (May 30, 2010)

Slip lead and a tasty treat like liver cake, chicken etc.

For bigger breeds a leather slip collar is ideal (you attach your normal lead to it)

This is what I train:

Remember the sequence ATTENTION--COMMAND--REWARD--RELEASE

Practise in a small area like your garden to start with.

Make sure your dog has your attention, possible sit your dog in a heel position sit (on either side but stick to the same side each time).

When you have your dogs attention, check your dog (tug on the lead so it tightens then quickly releases) and command heel when walking off. Have a treat by his nose and keep command heel, when he heels, go over the top on praise "GOOD BOY, GOOD HEEL, GOOD HEEL". When you have finished this exercise get him back in heel position sit. Reward him, and say a release command "OK" then ignore him for a couple of seconds.

This is the most successful way of training, effective, and has a quick reaction. Isn't cruel to the dog (like a choke chain) and makes it easier for you. Don't let him pull on it all the time because it will choke him, every time he pulls check him back and say HEEL again, remember lots and lots of praise and occasionally reward him.

ALL THE BEST!!! xx


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## JjPhoenix (Jan 6, 2010)

loose lead walking is one of those thingx that you can only train using consistancy. if you train for a few days,, then take your dog out for a quick spin round the block without training, that 10 mins has completely undone all the work you've put in. dogs are born gamblers, if they only get away wth something once or twice a week they will keep trying all the time. 
Harnesses are far better that collars, especially if you have a dog that pulls because of the damage that can be caused. Also dogs tend to pull less with harnesses anyway, but with any training aid, if you just slap it on the dog and still do no training, the dog will get used to it and carry on pulling after a while anyway.
i went through every training aid i could think of, harnesses, head collars etc, and we only cracked it when i put in the time and effort myself. neutering isnt going to help, the dog doesnt know its not allowed to pull! if you havent shown him any different?

we used clicker training 300 peck method. 
1 step, loose lead = treat
2 steps, loose lead = treat
3 steps, loose lead = treat
5 steps, loose lead = treat
7 steps, loose lead = treat
10 steps, loose lead = treat
etc

if the dog surges forward and the lead goes tight, guide the dog back into place with the treat and start from 1 step. dont add a command in until your dog can do 300 steps with a loose lead.

i use this harness
K9 Gear Limited Power-Harness
this one is good too.
Fleece Lined Harness for dogs and cats


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## Guest (May 30, 2010)

JjPhoenix said:


> loose lead walking is one of those thingx that you can only train using consistancy. if you train for a few days,, then take your dog out for a quick spin round the block without training, that 10 mins has completely undone all the work you've put in. dogs are born gamblers, if they only get away wth something once or twice a week they will keep trying all the time.
> Harnesses are far better that collars, especially if you have a dog that pulls because of the damage that can be caused. Also dogs tend to pull less with harnesses anyway, but with any training aid, if you just slap it on the dog and still do no training, the dog will get used to it and carry on pulling after a while anyway.
> i went through every training aid i could think of, harnesses, head collars etc, and we only cracked it when i put in the time and effort myself. neutering isnt going to help, the dog doesnt know its not allowed to pull! if you havent shown him any different?
> 
> ...


I find Harnesses just "Mask" the problem and encourage the pulling, it doesn't actually help with training a dog to heel, the minute you take that harness off the dog will be pulling again!!

Correcting the problem is far better than masking it, for the dog and for you xx


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

> Correcting the problem is far better than masking it, for the dog and for you xx


Using a harness/halti or whatever is a way of managing the problem while you work on solving it.

Putting a dog in a position where he can't make a mistake is far better than correcting him, for the dog and for you


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## Guest (May 30, 2010)

Colliepoodle said:


> Using a harness/halti or whatever is a way of managing the problem while you work on solving it.
> 
> Putting a dog in a position where he can't make a mistake is far better than correcting him, for the dog and for you


I find dogs pull far worse on a harness.

I walk about 6-8 different breeds a day, and found the ones in harnesses are nightmares to the ones in slip leads.

They find it easier to pull with their chest than their neck.

Halti's are ok, but would only recommend if the dog is a serious puller and a larger breed, not like a terrier etc


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## Guest (May 30, 2010)

Colliepoodle said:


> Using a harness/halti or whatever is a way of managing the problem while you work on solving it.
> 
> Putting a dog in a position where he can't make a mistake is far better than correcting him, for the dog and for you


You said it yourself "correcting him" and this is what needs to be done!!

People who don't correct and just mask it are lazy and just can't be bothered to work on training their dog in my eyes, but thats just my opinion, no offence


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

YouTube - Choose to Heel 
Be PATIENT - she walks alone + *waits* for this pup to join her...  takes about 30-secs, but LOOK how happy + relaxed - 
this is his home yard, he is very familiar + confident here.

_____________________________________

july 10, 2008 - 
clicker-training PINK, an AmBull, at 8-WO... 
YouTube - Clicker Training 8 week old American Bulldog Puppy

Aug 11, 2008 - PINK at 10-WO - 
*learning Choose To Heel, off-leash* in a horse-arena 
YouTube - Clicker training a heel with a 10 week old American Bulldog

Feb 3, 2010 - PINK practicing off-leash heel + Fronts at a public park: 
YouTube - Norcal's Pink heeling and come to front

theres another video of Pink under 6-MO doing an off-leash heel at a park - 
but i couldn;t find it. :cryin: waaah... and she was REALLY happy, with lots of distractions.

_________________________________________

contrast the body-lang of those pups with THIS - 
a 7-MO female GSD-pup in a park - BTW the trainer narrates behind the camera, the handler is mostly silent. 

YouTube - Heeling and focused attention 
at 1-min the dog is still worried by her surroundings, her mouth is open but tongue retracted behind incisors, 
her body is contracted while sitting, tail down when she stands... her ears are slightly angled-out (the rabbit-antenna look) 
vs upright in relaxed curiosity, or even lightly back in smiling, relaxed engagement with her handler.

she ducks + peeks around her stationary handler to the right - her head is still turtled into her shoulders, + poll is forward. 
at *1:30* LOOK at her SIT position - 
her butt + heels / hocks are down, which is good... *but her KNEES are way, way out in a flared wedge. :huh: *
*humans* sit like this when in a deep squat, with their butts above the ground; dogs do not.

at 2:30 she is finally beginning to relax + pay attn to her handler, vs the scary environs... 
her ears are still wavering in + out of that 45-degree anxiety-angle, but at least she can look at her handler for a few secs, 
w/o breaking away to look for threats.

at 3-min the dog is given a break from the sit, and relaxes a bit more 
(note - 
movement always helps control anxiety; standing or sitting or lying-down is not as helpful in a worrying situation, 
UNLESS U can place the dog in a safe area where its possible to hunker down + observe - obviously this setting, 
or at least where they are ATM, makes that difficult to impossible.)

structure - not emotive behavior: 
_* at 3:34 WATCH as that puppy sits - where are her knees? what happens to her spine? 
her back roaches as she tucks her butt forward, and BOTH knees go out again, in that wide almost-90-degrees 
at her tail angle. *_*her hocks are In, toes are Out. * 
i dunno whats wrong with her rear structure, but this is IMO very abnormal posture + movement.

4:35, her ears are *still* slightly outward, she still checks-for-threats in between attn-to-handler moments.

at nearly Five-Minutes the handler plays her up a little, and the dogs tail FINALLY rises a bit to a low saber - 
she also loosens her body-contraction, whew; for 15-secs she is too engaged in hunting for dropped treats to worry.

*by 5:20 they begin CHOOSE - TO - HEEL*... 
and at long, long last the dog is engaged-enuf for her body to come alive + her tail to stay up - she focuses, *movement* 
has her pay less-attn to scary things that MIGHT happen, and more attn to the Good-Things that *are happening.
by 6:10 she has already discovered where she needs to be, to be praised + rewarded - she is maintaining her position, 
relative to her handler, and moving fluidly. *

by 7:13 the dog is Both holding a good position whilst moving, and! giving her handler attn. 
she is going 2 to 5 strides in motion between rewards.

a partner to CLICK the dog for position would have had this process move along much faster - the essential clue 
[what are we rewarding this time?] of this exercise took a little while for the dog to figure-out.

STRUCTURE again - watch from 7:15 to 7:30 when the dog slows down + turns left <=== her hocks wriggle like Jell-o. 

behaviorally - 
by 7:30 the dog WAGS when she hears praise... :thumbup: much improved! i hate to see a dog constrained by fears - 
this is much nicer.

8:08 exercise finished! , nice little rumply play-session with the handler.

happy training, 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Colliepoodle said:


> Using a harness/halti or whatever is a way of managing the problem while you work on solving it.
> 
> (setting the dog up so that s/he cannot) make a mistake is far better than correcting... for the dog and for you





keeleyjane19 said:


> You said it yourself "correcting him" and this is what needs to be done!!
> 
> *People who don't correct and just mask it are lazy and just can't be bothered to work on training their dog* in my eyes, but thats just my opinion, no offence


*Ah-ah! (collar-jerk) keeley-Jane!! settle... >click! < good girl, thats much better.... have a sweet! (offers bag...)

U two are discussing 2 ** different ** harnesses - connected at the rear, harnesses encourage pulling - 
connected at the FRONT - on the forechest, harnesses *_ + headcollars of course - *give mechanical advantage to the HUMAN, 
making management of the dog possible, however hard the dog pulls. *_ 
this can be the exact same harness - just attached at the other control point.

i hope that clarifies things?  happy training, 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

keeleyjane19 said:


> Haltis are ok, but would only recommend if the dog is a serious puller and a larger breed,
> not like a terrier etc


 one of the biggest advantages of headcollars, kay, 
is the ability to -lift the dogs attn- off whatever they are fixated upon, and redirect it to what we would prefer 
that the dog focus on... which may mean lifting a hounds nose off the ground, lifting a pup off that chicken-bone at the park, 
*re-directing a M-reactive dogs gaze off another dog, during a stare-down thats ramping up to an aggro-display...* 
or re-directing the JRT who is stalking the neighbors cat, while the cat lies sunning on the window-ledge.

headcollars can be extremely handy for dogs of any size, right down to a 2# Chi who aggresses toward bigger dogs. :thumbup: 
once we can get their attn off the magnet / trigger, the dog can begin to learn another more-acceptable behavior.

cheers, 
--- terry


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## JjPhoenix (Jan 6, 2010)

keeleyjane19 said:


> I find dogs pull far worse on a harness.
> 
> I walk about 6-8 different breeds a day, and found the ones in harnesses are nightmares to the ones in slip leads.
> 
> ...


its not for te owners comfort i suggest a harness, but a dog that pulls should be in one, for health reasons and others. i would never ever suggest putting a dog thats not lead trained in either a choke or a slip lead, they get strangled just as bad in either, and get loads of other health issues relating to them also. Look at any leaflets you can pick up from the vets, search online etc and the long term is more important than the quick fix.

some dogs will also associate the pain and strangulation of the slip lead/chain with the thing they are pulling towards, eg dog/person, often resulting in behavioural problems.

The harness I got Len, is the k9power pro, I got it for his health and wellbeing to be honest, but a side effect of it was he pulled less, i then trained him anyway.

haltis have their place, say for a reactive dog, or a large dog. a friend of mine is a small lady, she has a st bernard. she trained him and he walks perfectly to heel, but she has a halti on him just in case something out of hers and his control happens, hasnt had to use it yet but is for safety.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

JjPhoenix said:


> i use this harness
> K9 Gear Limited Power-Harness
> this one is good too.
> Fleece Lined Harness for dogs and cats


hey, jj - 
i might use either of those harnesses as a seat-belt restraint in the car - but i would not use either one for teaching a LLW 
or a formal *heel* --- they give the dog all the mechanical advantages, and leave the handler to struggle to get the dog into 
a good side-by-side position re the handler; that fleece-lined version on a GSD would have the ring + leash almost -2-feet 
behind my left-hand, if the dog was heeling with their EARS parallel to the sideseam of my pants-leg. :laugh:

if the harness is not being used to HELP with the LLW / heel-training process, then i am IMO just as well-off using 
a buckle-collar AKA tag-collar, or a sighthound-style martingale collar.

cheers, 
--- terry


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## JjPhoenix (Jan 6, 2010)

this is one of the problems with training 'what can i do to make my life easier' not 'how to make things comfortable and safe for both _dog_ and handler.

I dont do any competive obedience work with my dogs or teach it - so I dont expect them to walk perfectly to 'heel' with me - its their walk, their supposed to enjoy it! it my eyes, if the lead is slack then im heppy and the dogs are happy, and fromt he sound of it thats what was being asked.

with the power pro it supports the dogs body, is comforting for them especially with a dog with 'issues', and helps the loose lead walking/all training process immensely despite that not being what it was made for - hence why their used by the police/army/security companies, With a gsd especially they are great, the extra handle gives a great deal of extra control if necc.

im pretty sure the apdt were giving out leaflets at crufts this year about the advantages of a harness over a collar?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

hey, jj! :--)

i don;t do competitive-obed, either`:thumbup: i help APOs train their pet-dogs.


JjPhoenix said:


> im pretty sure the apdt were giving out leaflets at crufts this year about the advantages of a harness over a collar?


 i am in the USA - and was not at Crufts; but as a trainer, i would never recommend a rear-clip harness for any dog over 10 - 15# max, 
who had a pulling habit - a rear-clip harness only makes this easier for the dog, and more rewarding.

if the owner wants to train leash-free and then begin walking the trained-dog on leash, a rear-clip harness 
would be useless, but not contraindicated - it would just be for insurance purposes, so that the dog cannot take off... 
but otherwise, its just for looks + to satisfy the letter of the law, where leashes are required.

cheers, 
--- terry


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

JjPhoenix said:


> this one is good too.
> Fleece Lined Harness for dogs and cats


I have to say that imo this particular harness is a waste of money!  It's cheap looking and poorly made: within days of buying one I found that the badly finished d-ring was cutting into the webbing on the back of the harness - something which definitely didn't inspire confidence. I also got sick and tired of the fleece backing on the side straps quickly rolling down and resembling Nora Batty's stockings!

I would never have one of these again. :thumbdown:


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## Guest (May 31, 2010)

Well, in my opinion, there are different training techniques to help a dog to heel, and also make it comfortable for the owner.

Harnesses, IMO, encourage the dog to pull.

As long as you don't just go out for a hour walk or whatever with a dog that hasn't been heel trained on a slip lead, then it can be very effective.

Building up heel work training is the key, starting in a garden or whatever, when the dog is about to go off pulling, check the dog back, the dog will then learn that if it walks nicely the lead is slack and almost as if they aren't wearing one.

It's more natural for the dog to be on a lead as apposed to a harness, and like I said before, in my opinion, it doesn't rectify the problem.

Take that dog out the harness on a lead a guarenteed they will pull!!

Just a plain lazy way of teaching a dog, if you're going to train a dog, you may aswell do it properly and actually TEACH the dog to heel nicely without bneed for special harnesses or head collars.

However, in my training experience, there has been the odd occasion where a head collar is a neccessity to that certain dog.

But 9 times out of 10 a slip lead is more effective than a harness, IMO 

xx


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## JjPhoenix (Jan 6, 2010)

its a very old fashioned way of looking at harnesses, that they encourage the dog to pull. nowadays harnesses are designed for many different purposes, some for weight pulling, some for sledding, some as deliberate non pulling harnesses, some for control, some for confidence building - eg ttouch. 
depending what harness you buy, depends on what sort of results you will get.
imo - do not and will not walk a dog, even a lead trained one on a slip lead unless its for what they were meant for - proper gun dog work. my dogs health and wellbeing is first and foremost for me, not whats easier for the owner < like slip leads


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## Deb (Jan 28, 2009)

I dont think that i am lazy!!!!!! I have spent months and months of time training through adivce on this site. but unfortunately through years of lifting patients in my job as a nurse (in the days before it was banned!!) my back plays up frequently and i have already been on the sick with it i have to be careful. Also i found cassie was worse because she was so frustrated at going round in circles, or never getting further than the end of the street. I have been to training classes and had 2 1-2-1 trainers with no effect. i have not just given up and done whats easier for me but have worked out whats best for both of us. The balance harness does NOT encourage cassie to pull, we now how lovely long stress free walks, and my back is not suffering.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Deb said:


> I dont think that i am lazy!!!!!! I have spent months and months of time training... but unfortunately through years of (heavy) lifting... in my job... my back plays up frequently... i have to be careful.
> Also... cassie was worse because she was so frustrated... I have been to training classes and had 2 1-2-1 trainers with no effect. i have... worked out whats best for both of us.
> The balance harness does NOT encourage cassie to pull, we now how lovely long stress free walks, and my back is not suffering.


sounds as tho U have a system that works, the dog is happy, YOU are happy, nobody is in pain or frustrated... 
:thumbup: :thumbup: well done, YOU! :thumbsup: 
anybody gets critical :lol: tell em to go suck an egg...

_ - illegitimi non carborundum - _


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I had to comment on the harness debate as its one of my pet hates....

Harnesses do NOT teach or encourage a dog to pull. Unless someone has recently invented a harness that that spits out livercake every time the dog pulls...

There are two main types of harness available - the standard harness, and the "no pull" harness.

A standard harness that does not constrict or anything does nothing to reinforce pulling, but nor does it discourage (punish) pulling. It is a neutral restraint, nothing more.

A no-pull harness works in some way to make pulling either punishing (by making it uncomfortable) or difficult / physically impossible (ie the ones with a front clip).

A harness is good for dogs who do pull, because it prevents injury. Even normal buckle collars can cause serious damage to dogs who pull continuously, or who lunge. Collars that have the capacity to constrict / pinch / etc are even more dangerous - ie chokes etc. Putting the dog on a harness ensurse that the dog is safe, while the owner trains it to walk on a loose leash.

Of course, if you have a dog that is too strong to be controlled on a standard harness, then a no-pull harness (or indeed a headcollar) will give the owner far more control.

This is ONLY the lazy option if the owner uses the equipment instead of training the dog - hence some dogs spendng thir lives on them. The same can be said of any equipment, inc slips / chokes / prongs etc.

If the dog is properly trained by the owner, it will not matter what you walk the dog on.

Suggesting that a slip lead is somehow necessary to train loose lead walking is clearly not correct, nor is it true that harnesses encourage pulling or mask the problem.

My point here is that training is an active process, carried out by the owner, to teach the dog what is expected. It is not about relying on any particular equipment. Incidentally, I have taught dogs to walk on a loose leash on standard harnesses and found it no more difficult than on a collar. Why? Because I do the training - the equipment does not.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Good post ^^^^


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## Neet (Jan 26, 2010)

I can really empathise with the first post on this thread. My boys are both 7MO now and I've finally decided today that they are too strong for me to walk both together.

Normally walk one each with my OH but was at home today so took them out at lunch time on my own. Much pulling from Henry from the start then as we were almost home they saw another dog playing fetch with his owner on the green. Both dogs pulled so hard I almost fell over, couldnt let them off to play as it was by a road and their recall is pants if there are other dogs about. Wouldnt obey any commands so ended up practically dragging them home - unpleasant for them and humiliating for me as this bloke watched me not being able to control my dogs.

They are great at sit/down/stay with no distractions and we are continuously trying to get them to walk to heel with mixed success but today was a really bad day. So upset and angry with myself by the time I got home 

Hate the fact that they are only puppies still at 7MO but being labs they are so big folks just expect them to be super well behaved and don't see how hard we try!

Sorry for the whinge, just having one of those two steps back days


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## Rdoig (Jun 2, 2010)

Labbies are very special, boisterous dogs. It does get better. Be consistent with your training. I found that if i played ball in the yard for a bit before a walk, he seemed less likely to start pulling and also Dexter has to carry something in his mouth on the walk - we have an old rope that gets used for the occasion.
Good Luck.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Neet said:


> I can really empathise with the first post on this thread. My boys are both 7-MO now and I've finally decided today that they are too strong for me to walk both together...


hey, neet! :--) 
2 Qs - 
are they sibs, by any chance? and do U walk them on Flexis?

dogs who live together often set each other off, too - it isn;t just strength + size of 2 dogs pulling, they often get MORE 
excited when their buddy is there. if they really go nuts with other dogs in sight, DAP and/or Rescue-Remedy can help a lot. 
calmatives are here: 
Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - dog body-language - and why it matters so much...

theres also - 
Look at That! A Counterintuitive Approach to Dealing with Reactive Dogs « Dog Training for Dog Lovers Blog

how about headcollars? 
they must be habituated, U cannot pop one on + go - but they provide good safe control, without pain to the dog, 
and once habituated, the dogs ignore them; the habituation process takes anywhere from 5 to 14-days, depending 
on the individual dogs progress.

heres a thread on habituating - 
fitting and habituating the Gentle-Leader or other headcollars - Pet Forums Community

and for immediate control, a front-clip H-harness is terrific; they ARE fit it and go, and any H-harness that fits well 
with a ** ring ** on the forechest where the straps meet, will work fine - if U already have seat-belt harnesses, 
just check them for a chest-ring. when they pull, if U simply stand still the front-attachment converts their own 
momentum into a sideways force - with minor gentle traction, U can have to the standing face-on to U, wondering what happened... :laugh:

just remember with either the headcollar OR the front-clip harness, *keep Ur hands Down + wrists Straight - 
going chicken-winged with bent wrists + elbows wrecks Ur mechanical advantage. *  
but with either tool, U have easy control without force or worry.

*special note re headcollars - 
NO flexis or any other spring-loaded extendable leads can be safely or humanely used with headcollars - 
the spring puts a constant pull on the dogs head, which is chronically nagging pressure, and the whole point 
of the headcollar is to REWARD the dog for not-pulling with the free + easy *feel* of a loose leash. 
with a flexi, the headcollar itself becomes part of the punishment. *

front-clip harnesses are great for long-line exercise, too - 
and for practice of long-distance recalls without runaways. 

happy training, 
--- terry


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## JjPhoenix (Jan 6, 2010)

Colette said:


> I had to comment on the harness debate as its one of my pet hates....
> 
> Harnesses do NOT teach or encourage a dog to pull. Unless someone has recently invented a harness that that spits out livercake every time the dog pulls...
> 
> ...


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: very very good post! have some liver cake :lol:

im glad you've found something that works for you - no TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN while its still working, have you tried 300 peck? if not then nows the time to try it, remember to also change the word your going to use, if youve been using heel, use close instead. if you dont train now and just use the harness, the dog will learn how to pull on that harness.

loose lead walking is the hardest thing to teach. remember dont set up your dog to fail, play ball ouside with him as suggested first. and remember to be consistant. ther is no reason for a lab to pull on a lead than any other dog, i hear it all the time, staffies pull, labs pull, boxers pull, its all not true, any dog can be trained it just takes *time, effort and above all, constistancy.*


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## Neet (Jan 26, 2010)

Thanks all.

Yes they are brothers and are really good in so many other ways but do wind each other up. The breakfast time walk is normally pretty calm but as the day goes on their energy levels build up and the pulling starts. I'll try the suggestion of playing some games before we set off next time.

Need to buy some new collars, especially as Henry ate Boots last night :eek6:


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## Rdoig (Jun 2, 2010)

:lol: at the comment about the leash being eaten....all dogs have different personalities but yet certain traits are common...


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## Bearpaw (Dec 10, 2009)

Neet,lovely boys you have there! i have a collar eater too,got through so many iv lost count now!!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Colette said:


> I had to comment on the harness debate as its one of my pet hates....
> 
> Harnesses do NOT teach or encourage a dog to pull. Unless someone has recently invented a harness that that spits out livercake every time the dog pulls...
> 
> ...


I had to comment as well, very good post, *but* although harnesses do not teach a dog to pull, but they do give a dog something to pull into, which is why they are used for working dogs and animals. I use a tracking harness with Indie, the idea is to get nice tension on the line (as I'm sure you know) and the way a harness is built makes it easy for a dog to put it's weight into it and pull.

I don't like anti pull harnesses for a few reasons, one (as above) I think they *can* be gimmicky, and if not fitted exactly how they are meant to be used, they don't work, and do give the dog something to pull into. I've seen posts before about owners with anti-pull harnesses that don't seem to be working, so it's worth pointing that out. Also, I don't like seeing harnesses on young dogs with a developing skeleton, an ill fitting harness can cause damage.

I also don't like anti pull devices across the face, again, a lot of people buy them thinking it will solve a problem, and aren't sure how to use them. I hate seeing dogs with straps so tight across their face that it pulls their skin out of proportion. And yet again, I hate seeing them used, or suggested for use, with a pup that may still be teething, it's uncomfortable enough for them as it is.

However, I'd rather see one or the other used *correctly* with a dog that has a problem where it may cause injury to itself and/or owner because it's such a problem.

Deb, I have a bad back (injured the base of my spine) and Tau used to pull, it took time and patience, but now she has very good heelwork, and loves playing a game as we go along. It's about what Sketch advised earlier in the thread, getting the dog's attention, get it focussed on you. I use Tau's lead handle, and all I do is pretend it's the best object in the world, she loves carrying things in her mouth (with her being a Labrador *Retriever*) and so we have a little play as we're walking along. I make a fuss about the lead handle being the best thing since sliced bread, just turning it over in my hands, and winding her up a little bit, she trots along, and I might let her try and get it, but I'll make her wait a while before she can *win* and get to carry the handle as we're walking along. And then I pretend to try and get it back, she's so pleased with herself for winning, that she just trots to heel with it in her mouth, I wouldn't actually have to hold the lead, but just slip a finger through it in case a rabbit or hare pops out of the hedgerow, as they sometimes do! But that only works because Tau understands where heel is, and knows that to play the game, she isn't allowed to jump up and go ballistic to get it, it's all done under control, and took time and patience, a little bit of training every day, to get where we are.

Good luck, hope you can get the heelwork sort


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

if U have truly tried to get the dog to walk nicely - as in TEACH the dog to walk nicely - 
and have utterly failed, i have one suggestion that might be the simplest solution of all - 
_walk faster, and do it in a point to point fashion with a definite visual goal. 
when U are getting close, choose another more-distant goal; walk briskly, 
maintain a good pace, and don;t get distracted chatting on a cell-phone; 
put the bloody thing in a pocket, WALK the dog, and if U must answer it, STOP + do so.

repeated studies have revealed that yes, humans can multi-task - 
but each added task splits attention, and performance drops proportionately. 
focus on the dog and the walk, for its duration; enjoy the outing, notice the weather, 
but mostly *move.*_

when U stop, give the dog sniff-time; choose likely dog-hotspots for this dog-time, and be sure to CUE the dog 
that this is sniff-time + a wander is fine; they are not allowed to DRAG U along, but theres 6-ft of leash to use. 
thats a big circle  when U are ready to move on, _*move - 
give the dog a heads-up, and get walking.*_

if U saunter, dawdle, chat up Ur friend while doing 5-miles a week, the dog is guaranteed to pull; boredom + impatience, 
plus Ur own lack of visual cues to the dog as to where the H*** we are going, make this inevitable, 
when U add it to the fact that 4-legged dogs ambulate faster than bipedal-humans.

dogs use our eye-gaze to make some sense of where we are aiming - 
if U want the dog to go THERE with U, it is only kind to let the dog know *where* THERE is.  
often those 2 things - brisk pace, and visual goal - fix the problem more than halfway, 
and teaching some attention takes care of the rest.

all my best, 
--- terry


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## JjPhoenix (Jan 6, 2010)

a collar will cause far more damage than a harness on a pulling pup 

on a developing pup, never use a head collar of any description or a non pull harness (except ones designed like the halti harness that has no tightening bits).

i wouldnt use a front clip harness with a long line, dogs can flip over with a front clip and can seriously damaged themselves, i would always use a 'normal' harness. 

might be stating the obvious here, but you wouldnt use a tracking harness for loose lead walking.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

JjPhoenix said:


> on a developing pup, never use a head collar of any description...


 hey, jj! :--) 
many guide-dog and other SD-orgs in the USA use headcollars on pups as young as 8-WO so that they habituate to it. 
i have yet to hear of a problem; when the pup outgrows a headcollar, just like a neck-collar, they get a bigger one. :thumbsup:

i have used headcollars on 5# dogs, too - adult toy-dogs and puppy small-breeds; no problems. 
and before U ask, _*no, i do not use it on all dogs, it might be 1 in 10, maybe - i have trained for a long time. *_ 
note the photo on this page - 
Pets - 
THAT is a properly-adjusted headcollar - the Golden with a tennis-ball in mouth and headcollar on face.  


JjPhoenix said:


> i wouldnt use a front clip harness with a long line, dogs can flip over with a front clip and can seriously
> damaged themselves, i would always use a 'normal' harness.


a fellow trainer said, 
** _For long-line training or exercise, or just play in unfenced areas, my dog wears his front clip harness - 
We used moleskin on the buckle because it chafed him, and he runs wearing it with no problems._ ** 
her dog BTW is a GSD, and can wear his harness all day; on a 6-ft leash or a long-line. 
i asked if she had ever had him flip or fall - Nope.

i have been using 30-ft long-lines with front-clip H-harnesses on dogs of every age, sex + size for over 25-years - 
and NOT ONE has taken a fall or been injured in any way - ever.

a *normal* harness with a rear-clip is just silly, IMO - now the dog is 20 or 30-ft away, and pulling AWAY from U with 
already-established momentum + force - that is mechanically crazy, it only makes it harder to control the dog at all. 
even a 6-ft leash with a rear-clip enables the dog to PUSH harder - as dogs do not really *pull*, like horses their drive 
comes from behind, and they are shoving forward with the rear-legs as the engine.

JMO + IME, 
cheers, 
--- terry


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## JjPhoenix (Jan 6, 2010)

funny that, 6 month staffie in foster was on a front clip harness and a long line, flipped over and broke her shoulder. nope i would not use a front clip harness and a long line.


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