# When should I Castrate my Male Samoyed



## gemmaleigh66 (May 27, 2009)

Ok so I have my lovely Zeus who is now 6 months old, he's at a point where he's boisterous, bouncy and his 'lipstick' has started to rear its head alot more often, so the question I have is....do we do it now or do we wait, now the reason I have thought about waiting is that our vet mentioned that if males are 'done' to early it can stop their personalities developing, Zeus's personality is amazing and I know he's only young but I wouldn't want to cut short his development, but I also wouldn't want to leave it to late, just after peoples views and whether they have heard of leaving it til 9 months for this reason? We are not intending on breeding, so no other reason to wait other than this???
Thanks


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## new westie owner (Apr 30, 2010)

All vets are differant Bobby got done at 15 months as he had both testicles retained  most dont do till over 1 year old at least he is lovely


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

If Sammys are like Mals the later the better IMO. My breed matures very late, as late as three so mine were done after 18 months old. I like them to mature at least a little but if I were going to do it again with a Mal (not likely) I'd wait til after two at least. There's no rush and you can't undo it once it's done so if it's done too early then you're stuck with a possibly immature, puppy like adult dog. Not good! 

TBH if I had had a single dog household I wouldn't have had it done at all. All of my neutered boys have fears of some kind, I never had this with any entire males I had and I have never had a male neutered before these guys because there was no need but with four males I though best be safe than sorry. Thing is the aggressive dog is Kali, a spayed female, lol!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Personally I would wait and let him mature both physically and mentally first, earliest I would have it done would be a year, preferably 16/18mths.


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## Bobbie (May 3, 2008)

If you want to have it done wait till your dog has been cocking his leg for at least a month thats what I was told.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Why do you need to castrate him? Does he disappear? Leave home? Do you have unfenced garden? Do you have an entire female at home?

There is no real need to castrate dogs unless there is a medical problem. The only thing that castration prevents is a) the ability to procreate and b) testicular cancer.

If you decide that you must, then please wait until your dog is at LEAST 18 months old when his growth plates have fused.

Sex hormones govern more than just the ability to sire litters.


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## Dog Springs (Sep 24, 2012)

I waited until my small dog was over a year old before having him done. For a Samoyed sized dog I'd probably wait until 18 months - 2 years old.

One benefit of castration no one has mentioned if that it does increase life expectancy because of the effects testosterone has on the body (not just in dogs, other animals including humans as well).


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

A secondary effect of castration is that this MAY affect the coat of your dog. Although this does not affect health and is only "cosmetic" it can mean an uplift in grooming requirements.


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## cazbah (Nov 2, 2009)

I don't understand why there is such a natural assumption that males dogs should be neutered if he isn't humping or showing and adverse signs I would leave him be. It is unnatural after all and really should be considered carefully.


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## GermanShepardOwner (Aug 20, 2012)

I would always neuter unless planning on breeding IMO. And i always neuter when they reach 1 but there are so many different opinions on if neutering should be done and when etc. Its personal choice, but i think 1 is a good age.

Also, if you do not neuter and you are not going to breed then how is that far? A dog which has all the hormones but cant express them? They still have the natural desire to mate when they are entire, but if you do not let them they have the urge but can not express that. 

My next door neighbours dog kept running off to find a bitch.. and it was because he was entire and had all the hormones but wasnt allowed to express them. So in the end he saw the light and got the poor boy neutered. I dont see how not neutering is fair IMO.


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## cazbah (Nov 2, 2009)

GermanShepardOwner said:


> I would always neuter unless planning on breeding IMO. And i always neuter when they reach 1 but there are so many different opinions on if neutering should be done and when etc. Its personal choice, but i think 1 is a good age.
> 
> Also, if you do not neuter and you are not going to breed then how is that far? A dog which has all the hormones but cant express them? They still have the natural desire to mate when they are entire, but if you do not let them they have the urge but can not express that.
> 
> My next door neighbours dog kept running off to find a bitch.. and it was because he was entire and had all the hormones but wasnt allowed to express them. So in the end he saw the light and got the poor boy neutered. I dont see how not neutering is fair IMO.


I think that is fair enough, if they reach maturity and show an urge to mate, but my adult male has never shown any urges, he has never humped, his 'lipstick' rarely makes an appearance and no signs of him trying to escape but I would still wait and see first, however I have only ever had small terriers, larger breeds may be different .


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## GermanShepardOwner (Aug 20, 2012)

cazbah said:


> I think that is fair enough, if they reach maturity and show an urge to mate, but my adult male has never shown any urges, he has never humped, his 'lipstick' rarely makes an appearance and no signs of him trying to escape but I would still wait and see first, however I have only ever had small terriers, larger breeds may be different .


I think all dogs have the urge still even if they do not show it. But most will not run off to find a bitch etc, but i dont think its neccessarily right to keep a dog entire which may well be having the desire. All dogs will have this desire, they are programmed to find a mate and breed, thats what they do, like humans. Us and dolphins are the only mammals which have sex for pleasure, so dogs are entire to reproduce, if they are not fulfilling this then is it fair?

Sorry hope that doesnt sound like having a go?!


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## cazbah (Nov 2, 2009)

GermanShepardOwner said:


> I think all dogs have the urge still even if they do not show it. But most will not run off to find a bitch etc, but i dont think its neccessarily right to keep a dog entire which may well be having the desire. All dogs will have this desire, they are programmed to find a mate and breed, thats what they do, like humans. Us and dolphins are the only mammals which have sex for pleasure, so dogs are entire to reproduce, if they are not fulfilling this then is it fair?
> 
> Sorry hope that doesnt sound like having a go?!


no of course it doesnt, I think the main thing is we care about our dogs and we are trying to do the best for them, if we feel that not being able to fulfill their urges is making them unhappy it's fine to do whats best for them, however if like me you think your dog is content and in his case my vet feels he needs his gonads for self confidence then it's ok too. The point is there is no hard and fast rule you just need to treat each dog individually, and it's a judgement call.


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## Born to Boogie (Oct 1, 2010)

He's only a baby. Or more accurately a teenager  He will be a bit horrid. If you can persevere with your training and remain consistent, he'll come through this trying stage.
I really would think long and hard about castration. His coat will change. It will become ENORMOUS. The texture will change, it will become thick, wiry, less waterfroof, generally more difficult to manage. Grooming on an industrial scale.
Most of my friends keep their male Samis entire. We're all a bit potty anyway, what's a bit of testosterone thrown into the mix :thumbup:


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## sazzle (Sep 10, 2011)

gemmaleigh66 said:


> Ok so I have my lovely Zeus who is now 6 months old, he's at a point where he's boisterous, bouncy and his 'lipstick' has started to rear its head alot more often, so the question I have is....do we do it now or do we wait, now the reason I have thought about waiting is that our vet mentioned that if males are 'done' to early it can stop their personalities developing, Zeus's personality is amazing and I know he's only young but I wouldn't want to cut short his development, but I also wouldn't want to leave it to late, just after peoples views and whether they have heard of leaving it til 9 months for this reason? We are not intending on breeding, so no other reason to wait other than this???
> Thanks


Just to add, even if you have him done it doesnt mean he wont show his 'Lipstick' My dog has been done and his still appears sometimes.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

GermanShepardOwner said:


> IAlso, if you do not neuter and you are not going to breed then how is that far? A dog which has all the hormones but cant express them? They still have the natural desire to mate when they are entire, but if you do not let them they have the urge but can not express that.
> 
> I dont see how not neutering is fair IMO.


So do you think it is "not fair" to prevent dogs from eating anything and everything if they have the desire?

Do you think it is "not fair" to prevent dogs duffing up other dogs if they have the desire?

Do you think it is "not fair" to prevent dogs which have the desire to chase, hunt and kill from so doing?

Should all desires be expressed then? 

I see that not neutering is VERY fair as, after examining the pros and cons, attending a seminar and reading many papers, keeping a male entire has far more health benefits than neutering it.


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## GermanShepardOwner (Aug 20, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> So do you think it is "not fair" to prevent dogs from eating anything and everything if they have the desire?
> 
> Do you think it is "not fair" to prevent dogs duffing up other dogs if they have the desire?
> 
> ...


If a man could never ever had sex but had all the hormones do you think he would be very happy?

If you are not breeding there is no need to keep a dog entire. I know too many people who have over aroused dogs and run away dogs because of their homones because their entire.

IMO i see alot more health and behavioural benefits for neutering male dogs. Im talking about neutering, not eating whatever they want or whatever you said. The sexual hormone desiree is far more than anythin else, dogs are programmed to reproduce, you dont let them go mount another dog then how is that fair whn he has all the equipment and hormones?


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

You have to be also aware that neutering your dog can change your dogs behaviour immensely....and *not* always for the better

so really think about it before you decide and do your research


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

GermanShepardOwner said:


> If a man could never ever had sex but had all the hormones do you think he would be very happy?
> 
> *Well there are lot of celibates about within and without the church and the ones I have met have been very happy.*
> 
> ...


Fairness is not an issue, only in your head where you have anthroporphised the dog.

What YOU feel and what dogs feel are entirely different.

Life is not fair, I suppose that is why they call it a bitch!


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## GermanShepardOwner (Aug 20, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> Fairness is not an issue, only in your head where you have anthroporphised the dog.
> 
> What YOU feel and what dogs feel are entirely different.
> 
> Life is not fair, I suppose that is why they call it a bitch!


So why did the dog keep running off to find a bitch? And never did it gain after neutering? They are a species which live to breed, thy hve the hormones for it, theres no anthroporphised about it?

I would only ever leave a dog neutered if it was in a group of males. An reguarding the sexual disiere its not alo different in humans and dogs.

And also its not down to just training, the vet advised my owner his dog was running off too find a female because of this issue.

I know a fair few behaviourists who agree with this theory, and vets ive worked with.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

GermanShepardOwner said:


> So why did the dog keep running off to find a bitch? And never did it gain after neutering? They are a species which live to breed, thy hve the hormones for it, theres no anthroporphised about it?
> 
> I would only ever leave a dog neutered if it was in a group of males. An reguarding the sexual disiere its not alo different in humans and dogs.
> 
> ...


I think you ought to get yourself on an APBC webinar about neutering to educate yourself about the downsides to neutering, even some vets are beginning to open their eyes.

I think you will find that MANY vets and MANY behaviourists have a different view than that expressed by the ones you have worked with. 

Vet CPD Webinar 4: Neutering Myths | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

You could also attend a seminar on Neutering given by Nick Thompson in November.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

GermanShepardOwner said:


> If a man could never ever had sex but had all the hormones do you think he would be very happy?
> 
> If you are not breeding there is no need to keep a dog entire. I know too many people who have over aroused dogs and run away dogs because of their homones because their entire.
> 
> IMO i see alot more health and behavioural benefits for neutering male dogs. Im talking about neutering, not eating whatever they want or whatever you said. The sexual hormone desiree is far more than anythin else, dogs are programmed to reproduce, you dont let them go mount another dog then how is that fair whn he has all the equipment and hormones?





GermanShepardOwner said:


> So why did the dog keep running off to find a bitch? And never did it gain after neutering? They are a species which live to breed, thy hve the hormones for it, theres no anthroporphised about it?
> 
> I would only ever leave a dog neutered if it was in a group of males. An reguarding the sexual disiere its not alo different in humans and dogs.
> 
> ...


I think the tide is very much turning against the blanket neutering of dogs; my first vet advised against neutering Kilo as does the trainer who's classes I currently attend. All the evidence that I have found so far has convinced me that he will remain entire unless for medical reasons - although I am always open to evidence and will never say never. There have been articles in two popular dog magazines over the past month or two as well - 'Your Dog' and 'Dogs Today' on the subject too saying that neutering isn't always the best course of action so it is very much coming into the public domain.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

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## gemmaleigh66 (May 27, 2009)

Our vet is pretty much a little Hitler to be fair, he is very strict and advised when he reached 12 weeks to give him 2 meals a day and that be that, well I kind of stuck my middle finger up to that and cut down his portions and made the ones I hadn't cut down a little bigger gradually, he also told me to feed him dry only, but I currently have a saucepan of white fish, peas and rice on the go for his breakfast  you answers are exactly why I came on here to get the right answers from the 'professionals' :thumbup:
I have no exact reason for wanting him 'done' just purely the vets saying it should be soon 6-9 months etc but as I said I didn't want to do anything that would affect his growth mentally and physically! The coat issue doesn't bother me if he were to be done and he were to get an enormous coat he'd look even more gawjus and we have the convenience of a groomer at the end of our road hehe but its him I want to make sure its going to be best for, his lipstick popping out doesn't bother me he's a man and I'd be worried if it didn't lol I just want him to reach his full potential and if neutering now would affect that I will keep him intact.
He doesn't run off because I've not allowed him off the lead yet, I have always said I wouldn't until I could completely trust him and at the moment he is as you can imagine a very bouncy and footloose Sammy and I can't!! We are completely fenced in so no chances of an escape so it would appear that Zeusy boy gets to keep his bits  Thank you for all your advice as always it is much appreciated, it seems weird venturing out of the cat section into the dogs but you are all very welcoming hehe


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I totally agree with you dogless and wish I had researched more before having at least Flynn done. I truly despair at how we aren't supposed to 'humanise' a dog under other circumstances but some feel it's okay to do so when discussing castration. That old saying 'if a man had his b*lls but couldn't have sex...' comparison is a bit naive I think as I doubt the dog is looking at dogs on telly when Crufts is on thinking what a lovely 'one park stand' it could have. It may consider sex when it smells a bitch in heat on that very rare occasion some thoughtless owner has taken their bitch in season to a public place but I'd put my bottom dollar on it never thinking of it otherwise. Even a humper isn't always doing it for sexual reasons, quite often just excitement and neutered dogs, both male and female also do it too.
They are not men (thank the Lord) and they don't think like them, neither do they go to the pub, although some do play football! 

As I have said often, the four boys here all have some kind of fear and two have different owners, so I can't be blamed for them as well as Flynn. I found Flynns vet care sheet last night and was quite shocked to see I had actually had him castrated at 16 months old. At that age and his breed he was more of a pup than a young adult, a very slow maturing breed who should have had at least two years to mature before being neutered.

The trainer I had gone to said he needed castrating asap because he was reactive to her dog a GSD, not aggressive just reactive so I literally had him done that same week - like the fool I was. The fact that he was under socialised due to being had a go at by two Airdales which worried me he'd get hurt so I kept him a distance from dogs - again foolishly had no bearing on her opinion. So he was castrated while in the midst of his adolescence and during a dog reactive phase - what a crap piece of advice from a so called professional! If there is such a thing as 'fixing' a behaviour in a dog by castrating during that phase then I possibly haven't helped Flynn with this behaviour and although we have and are making great progress as he's ageing and I'm calming down I wonder will he ever be like my past entire males - I doubt it!

My past males didn't hump, scent mark in the house, show aggression or reactiveness to other dogs, were great with kids and were not scared of silly things like the sound of kids in a playground, a kite overhead or reactive to bikes - I had none of that in them but do now in all four to some extent. Coincidence - I think not!

Another worrying thing with castration and although it's in Rottie studies that are still on going (who knows what breed next) is Osteosarcoma. While researching last night because of what the vet said about Kali's limp I found numerous sites stating early neutering has shown through studies to actually leave them predisposed to the condition. There has been significant evidence showing that this is so through scientific studies.

Quotes:

*Veterinary cancer specialists - Colorado.*
Many large and giant breeds are at high risk for the development of osteosarcoma, but the prevalence is particularly high in Scottish Deerhounds, Greyhounds, Rottweilers and Great Danes. For reasons that are currently not well understood, early neutering significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma development in Rottweiler dogs. Male Rottweiler dogs that were castrated and female Rottweilers that underwent overiohysterectomy before the age of 1 year were shown to have a 1 in 4 lifetime risk of developing osteosarcoma and were at significantly greater risk of developing osteosarcoma than intact Rottweilers. Studies investigating the genetic basis of increased susceptibility to osteosarcoma in Rottweilers and other breeds are currently underway through funding by the Canine Health Foundation and the Morris Animal Foundation.

*Cancer Epidemiology Biomarkers and Prevention.*
Although experimental and clinical evidence suggest that endogenous sex hormones influence bone sarcoma genesis, the hypothesis has not been adequately tested in an appropriate animal model. We conducted a historical cohort study of Rottweiler dogs because they frequently undergo elective gonadectomy and spontaneously develop appendicular bone sarcomas, which mimic the biological behavior of the osteosarcomas that affect children and adolescents. Data were collected by questionnaire from owners of 683 Rottweiler dogs living in North America. To determine whether there was an association between endogenous sex hormones and risk of bone sarcoma, relative risk (RR) of incidence rates and hazard ratios for bone sarcoma were calculated for dogs subdivided on the basis of lifetime gonadal hormone exposure. Bone sarcoma was diagnosed in 12.6% of dogs in this cohort during 71,004 dog-months follow-up. Risk for bone sarcoma was significantly influenced by age at gonadectomy. Male and female dogs that underwent gonadectomy before 1 year of age had an approximate one in four lifetime risk for bone sarcoma and were significantly more likely to develop bone sarcoma than dogs that were sexually intact [RR ±95% CI = 3.8 (1.5-9.2) for males; RR ±95% CI = 3.1 (1.1-8.3) for females]. χ2 test for trend showed a highly significant inverse dose-response relationship between duration of lifetime gonadal exposure and incidence rate of bone sarcoma (P = 0.008 for males, P = 0.006 for females). This association was independent of adult height or body weight. We conclude that the subset of Rottweiler dogs that undergo early gonadectomy represent a unique, highly accessible target population to further study the gene:environment interactions that determine bone sarcoma risk and to test whether interventions can inhibit the spontaneous development of bone sarcoma.

That is just two of the many sites I found with this info and as it states above the study has only been carried out in Rotts, why would we assume it will be different with other breeds.

I think there is a trend to assume you are irresponsible if not neutering your pets, that you may consider making money out of it by breeding a litter or two from it or (as is often said on here) that it will somehow sire pups while over the park, will escape and visit a neighbours dog or it will be uncontrollable if it smells a bitch - none of which were true with my boys and I'm sure many others.

I needn't have had Flynn done as Kali had been spayed and Marty was neutered at that time too so if it wasn't for that trainers advice I likely would have at least waited longer. Lets hope Marty's hypothyroidism isn't connected with castration and that that isn't another down side to it too, later to be found!

Sorry for the long post but as you can see I'm a bit peeved I was such a sheep and did what I was told, possibly to my boys detriment.


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## Born to Boogie (Oct 1, 2010)

Born to Boogie said:


> I really would think long and hard about castration. His coat will change. It will become ENORMOUS. The texture will change, it will become thick, wiry, less waterfroof, generally more difficult to manage. Grooming on an industrial scale.


He won't look more gorgeous, he'll look like a castrated male. His coat will completely lose it's integrity.
Do you brush or comb every day? A castrated male will need a full comb through every day, 45mins - 1 hour, if you wan't to keep him in a presentable state. I can manage my entire male with a daily brush through and a deep comb through, once a week.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Born to Boogie said:


> He won't look more gorgeous, he'll look like a castrated male. His coat will completely lose it's integrity.
> Do you brush or comb every day? A castrated male will need a full comb through every day, 45mins - 1 hour, if you wan't to keep him in a presentable state. I can manage my entire male with a daily brush through and a deep comb through, once a week.


I haven't found a change in the coats of my Mals at all, in fact if anything they are more lush, so that wouldn't be a concern of mine - rather the health side would. All of mine have lovely coats, require no more grooming than pre neutering and blow fully twice a year. I comb through around twice a week pre blowing and every day when in full moult, as you'd expect with a dog like them or yours. They all look fine, as you can see.

Flynn.








Kali.








Marty.









All taken during different seasons and no bad coats in any.

ETA - Gemma, your boy is beautiful btw and I went on your profile to see his pics but empty :-( - spoilsport!


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## gemmaleigh66 (May 27, 2009)

I groom him daily with a brush and he has a good comb through and brush at the weekends, he's only 6 months and has been to the groomers once and is due again mid Oct, I don't want to do anything that could affect him in a negative way, what I meant by being more gorgeous was that if he has a fuller coat it won't matter to me, but I wouldn't want to affect the condition in any way at all!!! He hasn't developed a proper under coat as yet he's just starting to fill out now


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## gemmaleigh66 (May 27, 2009)

Malmum said:


> ETA - Gemma, your boy is beautiful btw and I went on your profile to see his pics but empty :-( - spoilsport!


I felt bad so have uploaded a new Zeus file


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## Born to Boogie (Oct 1, 2010)

Malmum said:


> I haven't found a change in the coats of my Mals at all, in fact if anything they are more lush, so that wouldn't be a concern of mine - rather the health side would. All of mine have lovely coats, require no more grooming than pre neutering and blow fully twice a year. I comb through around twice a week pre blowing and every day when in full moult, as you'd expect with a dog like them or yours. They all look fine, as you can see.
> 
> Flynn.
> 
> ...


You have lovely dogs :thumbup:


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Malmum said:


> I haven't found a change in the coats of my Mals at all, in fact if anything they are more lush, so that wouldn't be a concern of mine - rather the health side would. All of mine have lovely coats, require no more grooming than pre neutering and blow fully twice a year. I comb through around twice a week pre blowing and every day when in full moult, as you'd expect with a dog like them or yours. They all look fine, as you can see.
> 
> Flynn.
> 
> ...


I do agree, Ive had a sammy, 3 siberian huskies a Malamute and a Mal/sibe mix and found they still have terrific coats and cant say I noticed that much of a difference if any, however I must admit like you Im a stickler for grooming anyway and cant stand them looking a sight and unkempt so they are groomed throughly and regularly anyway. I have noticed with some breeds though and spaniels being an example the coats can drastically change.


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