# dogs behaving (very) badly



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

season 2 episode 1 tonight on ch5


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

:Banghead


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## Jason25 (May 8, 2018)

Is he a bad trainer or something? I thought he got good results from his training?


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

He is appalling. He appears to get results but the dogs are often just shut down into submission, set up to fail or put into situations that are dangerous just to prove a point. Emma Judson wrote some great blogs last time, I'll try to find them and link them.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Here you go. Just because Emma says it doesn't necessarily mean it's true of course, but when the last series aired, imo it showed some very poor practice and Emma explains it very succinctly.

https://www.thecanineconsultants.co.uk/blog/tv-dog-trainers-aren-t-magicians

https://www.thecanineconsultants.co.uk/blog/tv-dog-trainers-part-2-wwyd


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

why oh why did the owners of the frenchie not shut the kitchen door after throwing the treat in
or
put a gate across the kitchen door
to stop him accessing the front door
or was that too easy


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

I saw it (first time I’ve watched this guy).

He gave very basic advice for very basic problems to people who didn’t have the wit to even google to try to find an answer first.

I particularly didn’t like his allowing the use of the word ‘no’, or whatever to tell a puppy off for toileting indoors.

I couldn’t see how the Dane was ‘cured’ unless his owners are prepared to jump in front of the window any time there’s anything going on outside. Maybe forever?

Didn’t see the first bit, but I know many better and more talented trainer/behaviourists.

How did he get to do this programme in the first place?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Why would you not use 'no' or similar so long as you do not get angry and quickly put the pup outside.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

Blitz said:


> Why would you not use 'no' or similar so long as you do not get angry and quickly put the pup outside.


I've truly never seen the point of 'no, particularly to a puppy who doesn't even know that it's a negative word. And if they do it's because you HAVE got angry.

I don't know quite how to explain it clearly but to me it's a bit like somebody shouting 'don't' at me; don't what? Stand, sit, breathe, look?

If you find it works then great but I find it imprecise .


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I cant bear to watch this crap. 
We had a thread about it last time.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Linda Weasel said:


> I've truly never seen the point of 'no, particularly to a puppy who doesn't even know that it's a negative word. And if they do it's because you HAVE got angry.
> 
> I don't know quite how to explain it clearly but to me it's a bit like somebody shouting 'don't' at me; don't what? Stand, sit, breathe, look?
> 
> If you find it works then great but I find it imprecise .


yes , exactly. Its instinct for us humans to say No, usually just raising your voice can stop a dog in its tracks. it doesnt mean to say it understood what No means.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> I cant bear to watch this crap.
> We had a thread about it last time.


Me neither..

Shouldn't it have been renamed we got dogs on a whim and don't have a clue about training... 
Not that I have watched any episode but that's my take on a lot of programmes the owners usually haven't a clue and even if not first time dog owners, some dogs are easy which is more luck of the draw..


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Linda Weasel said:


> I've truly never seen the point of 'no, particularly to a puppy who doesn't even know that it's a negative word. And if they do it's because you HAVE got angry.
> 
> I don't know quite how to explain it clearly but to me it's a bit like somebody shouting 'don't' at me; don't what? Stand, sit, breathe, look?
> 
> If you find it works then great but I find it imprecise .


sorry but a short sharp no! does not mean ive lost my temper
a no! accompanied by a blocking hand when jumping, can make them stop and consider for a moment
repeating it will get through to them that no! means dont do that, and is a gentle aversive
I dont raise my voice, but it is a short sharp command, and it has stopped my dogs, and puppy/adult fosters from getting themselves in a heap of trouble ( usually caused by me being inattentive, yes) by causing that immediate pause and look


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Thread from last time 
https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/dogs-behaving-badly-channel-4.443410/


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

I think ”no” can work as an interruption to stop a behaviour but as we have said in other threads, it doesn't tell the dog what you do want.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

JoanneF said:


> I think "no" can work as an interruption to stop a behaviour but as we have said in other threads, it doesn't tell the dog what you do want.


No different to Victoria Stilwells aaha which she used frequently.. But always best to interrupt, stop them in tracks and give them another game to do or action.. Such as when you relate it to a child no word because worthless too because fir the logically learning child wants to know why, what, reasoning behind which parents and carers can get frustrated to explain why its not a good idea to draw on wallpaper because in the child's head they can enhance it. However if you give them a picture to do, which can go on the wall, even in a frame, wall paper stays in tact and everyone gets what they want. As a bonus with child's picture is being framed it's offer more focus to their art work.

I rarely use the word no, it's negative.. In work or with dogs. Mainly to OH! About shopping things.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

No or oy or whatever in a sharp voice most definitely does not mean someone has lost their temper, why on earth would it. It is a very useful command to teach as you can stop your dog stealing food, picking up something dangerous, approaching another dog or whatever behaviour you want to stop instantly. I really cannot see what the problem is. Sorry @lullabydream but I think it is just as useful with children.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

No = try again dude, that is not what I am looking for because I have trained it to mean that... unless you actually attach a behaviour to the word it will just be an interrupter or just white noise.
Yelling or shouting no is again just an interrupter (properly taught cues don't need to be yelled ), it doesn't mean that the human has lost their temper, it is more of an "Oh crap" moment IMHO 

Obviously just repeatedly shouting no without teaching the dog what that actually means is pointless and would probably stop working as an interrupter if the behaviour is more salient.
Although I wouldn't use an interrupter when it comes to toilet training because that would be my fault for missing the signs so just clean up and do better next time  

As for the program...meh! Quick "fixes" are the go to thing for most of the general public so I prefer to shut up and train showing my skills, rather than dragging others down


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

next weeks one, with the frenchie jumping at the hairdryer, was previewed on fb
the owner came on to defend herself, against everyone telling her to 'snip' him
the dog is now 14months ( 6/7 when filmed) he still humps, she still finds it funny and still gives him a broken dryer to hump, but doesnt see that is actually 'rewarding' his behaviour
comes across, on fb, as a typical essex airhead, ( sorry to stereotype, but you know the kind i mean) who has the dog for status, nothing else and expects it to train itself


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

JoanneF said:


> I think "no" can work as an interruption to stop a behaviour but as we have said in other threads, it doesn't tell the dog what you do want.


This. The problem with 'no' how most people use it is that it leaves a 'behavior vacuum' leaving all sorts of other options for undesirable behavior. Pup chews shoes, owner says 'no' pup chews window sill instead. It's a non behavior. Much easier and more effective to teach behaviors that you can reward and strengthen.

Of course it's fine to use the word 'no' as long as the dog understand what it means. I just told Bates 'no' go lie down because he asked me to go outside. I happen to know he doesn't need to pee, he knows I just fed the cats their dinner and he would like to steal it from them. So no was a perfectly appropriate (and understood) response to his "hey mom, I really need to pee!" :Hilarious


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

I say no to my dog on occasion, he seems to get the idea! This morning he decided he would see if he could help him self to the cats unfinished breakfast, I said `No` and he took his front paws off the crate and sat looking at me trying to persuade me the cats didn't want all their breakfast so he was just helping out, food disposal and bowl cleaner all in one Obviously if I want to swap one behaviour for another then I wouldn't just say no but as a quick way of making my feeling known it works for me.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

and there it was
2 dachshunds, showing all the signs of ramping it up from growling at each other,
forced to be up on the sofa together, a place the owner already indicated, was the biggest bone of contention between them
and, when the brown daxie doesnt pay attention to him, because hes already so far up the ladder he simply cannot pay attention, in he goes with the CM rib jab
the dog spins round and automatically thinks the pain comes from the other dog, and, a full on fight ensues
if that is not the biggest indicator, that these negative measures do not work,
i dont know what is


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

:Banghead


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I just watched a preview on youtube




That seriously could be the CM intro. "No dog is too much for me." Nat Geo could sue for plagiarism or whatever the TV/film version would be! Or maybe they're flattered at the remake LOL!



mrs phas said:


> a full on fight ensuesi


This really makes me angry, and hopefully one day someone smarter than me will figure out how to prosecute these things through legal channels.

In the US, dogfighting is a felony in all 50 states. 
"It shall be a Class C felony for any person:

To own, possess, keep or train any dog with the intent that such dog shall be engaged in an exhibition of fighting with another dog;
For amusement or gain, to cause any dog to fight with another dog, or cause any dogs to injure each other;
To permit any act in violation of subdivisions (1) and (2) of this subsection."
Look at the second bullet. 
These dogfather/dogwhisperer shows cause dogs to fight for amusement and monetary gain. This 'trainer' put two dogs together on the sofa, where he knew they had a history of fighting, they fought, and it was filmed and aired on TV for an audience. How on earth is this legal?!


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

I think you may be on to something. Under the Protection of Animals Act 1911 it is an offence -

If any person-

(a) ...
(b) ...

(c)shall *cause, procure, or assist at the fighting or baiting of any animal;* or shall keep, use, manage, or act or assist in the management of, any premises or place for the purpose, or partly for the purpose of fighting or baiting any animal, or shall permit any premises or place to be so kept, managed, or used, or shall receive, or cause or procure any person to receive, money for the admission of any person to such premises or place; or

(d) ...
(e) ...
(f) ...

such person shall be guilty of an offence of cruelty within the meaning of this Act, and [F3shall be liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or both]

What do you think? The email address is [email protected]


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I wish I could see a video (actually kind of glad I can't) but I do think you might have a case with the language 'cause' the fighting or baiting of any animal. 
Surely you could argue that his ineffective practices caused the fight?


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## Billbailey (Dec 22, 2019)

3dogs2cats said:


> I say no to my dog on occasion, he seems to get the idea! This morning he decided he would see if he could help him self to the cats unfinished breakfast, I said `No` and he took his front paws off the crate and sat looking at me trying to persuade me the cats didn't want all their breakfast so he was just helping out, food disposal and bowl cleaner all in one Obviously if I want to swap one behaviour for another then I wouldn't just say no but as a quick way of making my feeling known it works for me.


Works for me too in stopping Bill from doing what he's about to do. it's natural for me as a human to say NO! and he's learnt that means he should stop what he's doing because of the tone. I then immediately follow it up with a 'good boy' and what I want him to do. I've also used Ah! Ah! on occasion.


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## Sandysmum (Sep 18, 2010)

A dog doesn't understand the word no, in the same way as a young child doesn't, but as time goes on they both associate the sound with the word and what it means. I don't think this guy is anywhere near as bad as CM, most of what he says makes sense and is positive. 

The problem with dog programmes like this, is that they only show a fraction of the training , they pick out the best bits for tv .The constant repetition that I'm sure happens during his day with a trainer would be boring to most people. So it does appear to show quick fixes during training. But what happens after that is down to the owners putting the work in to strengthen what's been started.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

jetsmum said:


> The problem with dog programmes like this, is that they only show a fraction of the training , they pick out the best bits for tv


This is why I hate this type of animal training TV.
It's all about entertainment and not as much about the animal and their feelings or problems.
They seem to delight in causing the problem behaviour just to get people's attention.
I saw snippets of the last season but it just annoyed me.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I have been trying to see how often I say NO to my dogs and it is lots particularly with Candy. She goes in a direction I dont want, I say (in a normal voice), no, dont go there, she turns round and comes back to me. A sharp no or leave if she is going to pick up something she shouldn't. And numerous other examples. Why is no any different from leave or sit or down. Candy must be the naughty one because it is always her I am saying it to!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Beth78 said:


> This is why I hate this type of animal training TV.
> It's all about entertainment and not as much about the animal and their feelings or problems.
> They seem to delight in causing the problem behaviour just to get people's attention.
> I saw snippets of the last season but it just annoyed me.


of course it is. It is television so needs to be entertaining. It is not made for people with knowledge on the subject.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

jetsmum said:


> I don't think this guy is anywhere near as bad as CM, most of what he says makes sense and is positive.


Are you referring to positive punishment?


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Blitz said:


> Why is no any different from leave or sit or down.


A dog can much more easily understand 'sit' or 'down' because they are associated with specific actions. 
'No' is not associated with any specific action, it normally means don't do whatever it is you're doing that the owner doesn't like.
However, I also use 'no' with my dogs, mainly Fly who likes to explore off the main path, or at agility when they're about to go for the wrong obstacle.


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## margy (Dec 9, 2018)

When I got my JRT Barney in 1990, I went to the library to find a book on dog training. The only book I could find was by a man called John something , sorry I can't remember his second name. Any way he recommended saying NO in a loud voice and if the dog persisted you picked it up by the scruff of the neck and shook it as that apparently is what the mother dog did to stop unwanted behaviour. I also took Barney to training classes to stop him pulling on his lead. I took him to 3 sessions and gave up because he hated it and used to shake when we went . They were run by a man who was an ex police dog handler. He told me to get a choke chain which didn't work because Barney just rubbed his neck raw and choked himself. I got a halti collar which had just come out then and that helped. Now it seems there's loads of dog trainers and it's easy to get information on how to train your dog, but a lot of contradiction. I wish I'd had something like this forum when Barney was a pup.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Burrowzig said:


> A dog can much more easily understand 'sit' or 'down' because they are associated with specific actions.
> 'No' is not associated with any specific action, it normally means don't do whatever it is you're doing that the owner doesn't like.
> However, I also use 'no' with my dogs, mainly Fly who likes to explore off the main path, or at agility when they're about to go for the wrong obstacle.


I do not think dogs are as stupid as made out. They learn our language fairly well. They most certainly understand No and also lots of other phrases. No , you are not coming with me - cue go to bed. Wait a minute. And various other phrases.


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## Billbailey (Dec 22, 2019)

I agree. Bill understands a lot of abstract ideas. If I hold my fingers up and say '5 minutes' he knows he has to wait for me to do whatever it is without whining and fussing. So he just sits and waits. And he worked that out for himself. If he barks at something outside and I say 'neighbours' he knows it's nothing to worry about and he settles down. He also worked that out for himself. He doesn't know what 'minutes' and 'neighbours' actually are, he just knows what I mean when I say those words.

When you have a bond with a dog, they can work you out pretty quickly.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Blitz said:


> of course it is. It is television so needs to be entertaining. It is not made for people with knowledge on the subject.


Yes exactly, no knowledge.
So, to help the un educated/in need dog owners, maybe some case study threads to enlighten and advise ?

Reactive dog case study

Example;

Dog no.1 is on a lead next to its owner.

Dog no.2 is off lead next to its owner.

(Both owners can see and hear perfectly)

☆ Dog no.2 approaches Dog no.1 at a running speed.

☆ Dog no.1 barks at Dog no.2

☆ Dog no.1 growls at Dog no.2

☆ Dog no.1 bites Dog no.2

● what could have been done to prevent the dog bite ?

● how should each owner react to this incident ?

● who is responsible for the actions of which dog ?

Ps. Just a bit of fun, not demeaning or TTP


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Beth78 said:


> Yes exactly, no knowledge.
> So, to help the un educated/in need dog owners, maybe some case study threads to enlighten and advise ?
> 
> Reactive dog case study
> ...


That would be of no interest to television viewers though. The only people who would like to watch it are those that do not need to.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Blitz said:


> I have been trying to see how often I say NO to my dogs and it is lots particularly with Candy. She goes in a direction I dont want, I say (in a normal voice), no, dont go there, she turns round and comes back to me. A sharp no or leave if she is going to pick up something she shouldn't. And numerous other examples. Why is no any different from leave or sit or down. Candy must be the naughty one because it is always her I am saying it to!


Ah but you're not just saying 'no', you're giving further instructions. 
No, dogs aren't stupid, far from it. They manage to learn out cues even when we're confusing and inconsistent about them.

Unfortunately, most owners don't do a very good job of teaching what 'no' means. Or we teach our dogs that it is a predictor of punishment, even if that punishment is simply the owner being upset. A lot of dogs are very sensitive to our moods and they learn to associate 'no' with unhappy owner. Which they don't like. But they don't really understand that the 'no' really means 'leave it' or come back this way.

That's not to say that there aren't owners out there who use 'no' effectively and the dog understands the conversation. Like you, I say 'no' to Bates, generally in the context of him asking me something. Like bugging me for dinner or asking if he's coming with me when I put my shoe on. I'm sure he understands the no for what it is, an answer to his question. 
But I don't use 'no' as a reprimand. If I want him to stop doing something I might use "all done" which is his cue for the end of a behavior. It actually works well with things like barking at the delivery truck. I do want him to bark, but I also want him to stop barking once I know someone is here. "All done" has clear meaning for him. 
If I don't want him to eat something gross I say 'no bite' our leave it cue. If I want him to stay out of one area I'll either call him, say "this way" (means we're changing direction) or "right here" (come closer to me). 
IOW I try to give him specific directions, not just a generic 'no' without further instructions. I find this approach much more useful and you don't end up with a dog who just tunes out the 'no' because it has become such a confusing and repetitive word.

FWIW I find children do better with requests to do something rather than stop doing something. Instead of "don't yell" it's more effective to say "can you talk with a quieter voice?" Instead of "stop running around" say "can you come sit here by me?" and so on.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Blitz said:


> That would be of no interest to television viewers though. The only people who would like to watch it are those that do not need to.


True


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Who watched that ghastly vegan criminal thing on channel 4 last night. It is aiding and abetting crime, talking rubbish and downright lies but it is television and no doubt attracted viewers.


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

Blitz said:


> Who watched that ghastly vegan criminal thing on channel 4 last night. It is aiding and abetting crime, talking rubbish and downright lies but it is television and no doubt attracted viewers.


I didn't because I knew I would get annoyed by it.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

MontyMaude said:


> I didn't because I knew I would get annoyed by it.


I only got half way through it. Not what I expected , totally stupid and dishonest.


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

Blitz said:


> I only got half way through it. Not what I expected , totally stupid and dishonest.


I just dislike animal rights activists, as they often have very little thought for the animals and they give no thought to the strict disease controls most farms have to adhere too.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

MontyMaude said:


> I just dislike animal rights activists, as they often have very little thought for the animals and they give no thought to the strict disease controls most farms have to adhere too.


They were not even proper activists , they were just a stupid young bloke who videoed stuff to put on his instagram and crowd fund to get an income as he had given up his job. He broke into a pig farm and stole a pig , aided by the channel 4 reporter , they should go to prison. And a girl that 'rescued' hens and ducks that were going for slaughter but since when did rare breeds get reared for slaughter and tiny bantams! She had an injured hen that the vet told her was suffering and it should be destroyed and she refused and carried it round in a sling. Idiots.


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

Blitz said:


> They were not even proper activists , they were just a stupid young bloke who videoed stuff to put on his instagram and crowd fund to get an income as he had given up his job. He broke into a pig farm and stole a pig , aided by the channel 4 reporter , they should go to prison. And a girl that 'rescued' hens and ducks that were going for slaughter but since when did rare breeds get reared for slaughter and tiny bantams! She had an injured hen that the vet told her was suffering and it should be destroyed and she refused and carried it round in a sling. Idiots.


:Wideyed I am glad I missed it then.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> Ah but you're not just saying 'no', you're giving further instructions.
> No, dogs aren't stupid, far from it. They manage to learn out cues even when we're confusing and inconsistent about them.
> 
> Unfortunately, most owners don't do a very good job of teaching what 'no' means. Or we teach our dogs that it is a predictor of punishment, even if that punishment is simply the owner being upset. A lot of dogs are very sensitive to our moods and they learn to associate 'no' with unhappy owner. Which they don't like. But they don't really understand that the 'no' really means 'leave it' or come back this way.
> ...


I agree with this offen a child might only hear the last word you say so stop hitting becomes hitting.

With regards to dogs I was thinking about this I live alone so talk to the dogs a lot ! I often say no thank you to them when they are being silly but they do not listen. They do under 'Enough' this is normally if bity face is getting silly or if the start jumping up at me. This is normally followed by a quick training session with treats to get them back to calm.

Sox will sometimes mooch around me wanting me to move so he can have my sofa space I tell him to find his bed and he mooches off.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I do not think dogs are as stupid as made out. They learn our language fairly well. They most certainly understand No and also lots of other phrases. No , you are not coming with me - cue go to bed. Wait a minute. And various other phrases.


I hope you're not saying that I make dogs out to be stupid - they're far from it. 
Both those instances are replacing 'no' with another instruction.
Dogs don't generalise well, which is why you have to train the same thing in different circumstances; for instance down in the home is usually fairly easy and down in the park with distractions something more of a challenge. To understand 'no' in any circumstance would take a mind that generalises well.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> Ah but you're not just saying 'no', you're giving further instructions.
> No, dogs aren't stupid, far from it. They manage to learn out cues even when we're confusing and inconsistent about them.
> 
> Unfortunately, most owners don't do a very good job of teaching what 'no' means. Or we teach our dogs that it is a predictor of punishment, even if that punishment is simply the owner being upset. A lot of dogs are very sensitive to our moods and they learn to associate 'no' with unhappy owner. Which they don't like. But they don't really understand that the 'no' really means 'leave it' or come back this way.
> ...


I say "No" to my dogs but I do have 'finish' cues for certain things as well. If I found I was constantly saying "no" then I would have to re-assess what training I had let slip.

I have start/finish cues for training or playing, cues for the dogs to stop barking, cues to tell them not to eat something I might drop or leave in their reach, etc but then I will also say "no" if, for example Archer (it's always him!) brings a toy over & I don't want to play. Some people seem to think I should tell him what to do instead but tbh once we are done for the day (he's been walked/fed, etc) I don't care what he does just as long as it's not annoying me. He knows well enough, he knows our routine & he knows me well enough that sometimes I don't even have to say anything but will give him 'a look' 

Roxy is obviously the master at subtle cues & when Archer is acting like a dick she only has to glance at him & he stops. She has never physically reprimanded him but he knows he's in big trouble some days if he carries on.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

I'm currently involved in a Facebook debate on this wretched program. Haven't seen any of the latest series as I can't bring myself to watch.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

This girl was interviewed on BBC breakfast this morning and spoke well about R+ so it was great to see someone speaking sensibly.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-51190283


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

I watched last night and couldnt understand how the woman on the 18 acre estate didnt just fence her land.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

tabelmabel said:


> I watched last night and couldnt understand how the woman on the 18 acre estate didnt just fence her land.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

tabelmabel said:


> I watched last night and couldnt understand how the woman on the 18 acre estate didnt just fence her land.


but how would that make good tv?
bit like the couple in the first programme, not gating, or shutting the kitchen, so the frenchie couldnt get to the front door


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

what annoyed me last night with that blooming pom was
he had the perfect opportunity to educate viewers about dogs being aggressive in the home, still being considered "out of control" and, possibly, at the very least, getting a talking to by police, escalating up to the dog being classed as a danger and pts. The postman couldve gotten bitten, let alone any visitors, as we saw with him getting ankle bitten
also, putting a letter cage on inside, or, box thing on outside, just in case of a backward step by dog


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

mrs phas said:


> what annoyed me last night with that blooming pom was
> he had the perfect opportunity to educate viewers about dogs being aggressive in the home, still being considered "out of control" and, possibly, at the very least, getting a talking to by police, escalating up to the dog being classed as a danger and pts. The postman couldve gotten bitten, let alone any visitors, as we saw with him getting ankle bitten
> also, putting a letter cage on inside, or, box thing on outside, just in case of a backward step by dog


My last dog attacked the mail, she did it twice so the next day we brought a cage to put on the door to protect the mail and fingers, it's not rocket science, but yes the feckless owner annoy me more than he does.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

I watched last night and it was just cringeworthy.

Most people with a little bit of experience of dogs, and some common sense, could have done as well as the ‘Master’ dog trainer.

Also; how exactly do you get to be. ‘Master’ dog trainer?


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Linda Weasel said:


> Also; how exactly do you get to be. 'Master' dog trainer?


I looked at that before. You declare that you have experience of training a certain number of dogs and pay the £75 (or so) fee. It's not externally accredited.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

I decided to watch episode 1 of the new season yesterday :Facepalm

Thought I'd come on and leave this picture as a little gift for @O2.0 who is clearly missing out on all the fun 
It shows the master dog trainer squaring up to a great dane. Enjoy!


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

^^ That shot really ought to carry the warning 'how *not t*o train your dog'!! 

What on earth does he think he is doing?

J


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> ^^ That shot really ought to carry the warning 'how *not t*o train your dog'!!
> 
> What on earth does he think he is doing?
> 
> J


On the program he says that the look tells the dog "I wouldn't if I were you!" He's lucky he didn't land himself bitten.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Sairy said:


> On the program he says that the look tells the dog "I wouldn't if I were you!" He's lucky he didn't land himself bitten.


Indeed. But of course as we know, others will get bitten if they try that at home.

J


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Wow, it's very worrying that some people are watching this thinking it is educational.
I thought this way of training was filtering out of the uk, shame on you channel 5.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Beth78 said:


> Wow, it's very worrying that some people are watching this thinking it is educational.
> I thought this way of training was filtering out of the uk, shame on you channel 5.


Sadly not. And judging by the debate on facebook that I've been involved in it's unlikely to go anytime soon as an awful lot of people on there think this man's training is really good.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

MontyMaude said:


> My last dog attacked the mail, she did it twice so the next day we brought a cage to put on the door to protect the mail and fingers, it's not rocket science, but yes the feckless owner annoy me more than he does.


I think some of the owners just want to be on the telly, no matter how hopeless and stupid they have to present themselves to be.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Sairy said:


> I decided to watch episode 1 of the new season yesterday :Facepalm
> 
> Thought I'd come on and leave this picture as a little gift for @O2.0 who is clearly missing out on all the fun
> It shows the master dog trainer squaring up to a great dane. Enjoy!
> ...


I 'liked' your post but DISlike it! 
Poor dog, look at the classic paw-lift appeasement/calming signal  And that's a "leave me alone" look on his face, the way he's holding his mouth and everything. He looks very conflicted - I don't want to have to bite, but I'm really confused and scared and may have to. I hate, hate, hate seeing dogs pushed like this. He's trying SO hard not to have to bite 

What was he (the idiot on two legs) trying to do anyway?


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

O2.0 said:


> What was he (the idiot on two legs) trying to do


Show off. He is a narcissist that can tell people he meets that he has his own tv show.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

JoanneF said:


> Show off. He is a narcissist that can tell people he meets that he has his own tv show.


So he was just squaring off to the nervous great dane for shits and giggles? 
Was he trying to get him off the sofa or anything?


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

I only watched one of this series (looking for something specific) and I think that was in the intro section so I don't know the background.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

O2.0 said:


> So he was just squaring off to the nervous great dane for shits and giggles?
> Was he trying to get him off the sofa or anything?


The dog was climbing up the windowsill and barking at a delivery man who had arrived outside the house so Graeme got in between the dog and the windowsill to block him from doing this, and squared up to him as if to say "I am in charge and you aren't doing that!". I'm almost tempted to call on him to try it with Holly to see how that goes down!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Sairy said:


> The dog was climbing up the windowsill and barking at a delivery man who had arrived outside the house so Graeme got in between the dog and the windowsill to block him from doing this, and squared up to him as if to say "I am in charge and you aren't doing that!". I'm almost tempted to call on him to try it with Holly to see how that goes down!


Oh lovely, so he thinks the dane is barking at the delivery man because he thinks he's in charge? 
Danes bark at things because they were bred originally as estate guardian dogs. Their job is to notice any changes and alert to them. Hell Breez would bark if you moved a flower pot from the right side of the entry to the left. You tell them 'thank you' and that they're done, and they stop. It's not complicated. 
Punishing a dog for ingrained instincts is a great way to thoroughly confuse them and ruin your relationship with them. You don't punish a bloodhound for using his nose, you don't punish a collie for herding, you channel and direct instincts. Not like they can stop being who they are anyway.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> Danes bark at things because they were bred originally as estate guardian dogs.


Oh I didn't know that, we have a lady who walks 4 great Danes at the woods we walk in, they are very vocal.
I assumed they were bred to hunt.
It's always interesting to hear the origins of different breeds.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Beth78 said:


> Oh I didn't know that, we have a lady who walks 4 great Danes at the woods we walk in, they are very vocal.
> I assumed they were bred to hunt.
> It's always interesting to hear the origins of different breeds.


Yes, they were also bred to hunt. They were estate guardians and hunting dogs, they tracked and held boars at bay until the humans showed up to finish the job. 
In the US, in the 70's danes became known as a dangerous, aggressive breed and breeders made an effort to breed a softer dog. In large part it has worked, but most danes still have that prey drive and guarding in there. They can be big softies, but they're still a mollosser breed. People forget that to the detriment of the breed IMO. 
In more recent times it seems breeders are confusing watered down guarding traits with timidity and there are way too many shy, fearful danes out there. Timid + an instinct to notice and alert to changes is not a good combination. Thankfully there are still good breeders out there who are breeding for correct temperament as well as correct build.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> ^^ That shot really ought to carry the warning 'how *not t*o train your dog'!!
> 
> What on earth does he think he is doing?
> 
> J


I know a local 'trainer' who thought that 'squaring up' was the way to go; she got her face bitten. Ouch.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Linda Weasel said:


> I know a local 'trainer' who thought that 'squaring up' was the way to go; she got her face bitten. Ouch.


Takes a special kind of stupid to be a dog professional and manage to get yourself bitten in the face. Excepting vets and groomers who end up in awkward positions. But a trainer? Come on....


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> I 'liked' your post but DISlike it!
> Poor dog, look at the classic paw-lift appeasement/calming signal  And that's a "leave me alone" look on his face, the way he's holding his mouth and everything. He looks very conflicted - I don't want to have to bite, but I'm really confused and scared and may have to. I hate, hate, hate seeing dogs pushed like this. He's trying SO hard not to have to bite
> 
> What was he (the idiot on two legs) trying to do anyway?


to try and tell him the window area washis ( two legged) not the Danes
that even glancing at the window was a negative
I know its very very wrong, cos it gives such a negative impression of Danes
but boy was I wanting the Dane to take his face off ( just a little bit of it, like his chin)


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> Takes a special kind of stupid to be a dog professional and manage to get yourself bitten in the face. Excepting vets and groomers who end up in awkward positions. But a trainer? Come on....


Trouble is, anybody can call themselves a dog trainer, advertise and hire a hall.

I don't think the word 'professional' would apply in this case.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Linda Weasel said:


> I don't think the word 'professional' would apply in this case.


All professional means is that someone charges for their services...oh boy does this dude charge...so he is a professional dog trainer because people hire him.

It's dudes like this that show we need regulation in the training industry and fast...people like this exist because people want a quick fix now that requires minimal effort from themselves.

Back to my #shutupandtrain mantra


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

StormyThai said:


> Back to my #shutupandtrain mantra


Yes, I think I shall follow your excellent lead here too


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

StormyThai said:


> All professional means is that someone charges for their services...oh boy does this dude charge...so he is a professional dog trainer because people hire him.
> 
> It's dudes like this that show we need regulation in the training industry and fast...people like this exist because people want a quick fix now that requires minimal effort from themselves.
> 
> Back to my #shutupandtrain mantra


But what would regulation actually mean tho? Who would be eligible & what training methods would be considered? I know lots of people with credentials who promote R+ training talk the talk & on paper look as if they tick all the boxes …. but they are not good trainers & actually end up giving R+ trainers a bad name …. & unfortunately there are lots of them about now.

I honestly don't know what the answer is btw (so am not having a go!) & am not sure there is one 'right' answer.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> But what would regulation actually mean tho? Who would be eligible & what training methods would be considered?


That would all need to be discussed before the regulation came in...Jo-Rosie spoke in Parliament about it recently (a few months ago iirc)...I agree with the R+ training talk, so many pick up a few phrases and then run with it...watching some fumble over the word punishment is pretty amusing to me (easily amused hehe)

I don't know what the answer is either to be truthful, but the gen public really do need a way of sifting through the chaff, it's sad to see well meaning owners falling for the numpties just because they have the gift of the gab!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

StormyThai said:


> That would all need to be discussed before the regulation came in...Jo-Rosie spoke in Parliament about it recently (a few months ago iirc)...I agree with the R+ training talk, so many pick up a few phrases and then run with it...watching some fumble over the word punishment is pretty amusing to me (easily amused hehe)
> 
> I don't know what the answer is either to be truthful, but the gen public really do need a way of sifting through the chaff, it's sad to see well meaning owners falling for the numpties just because they have the gift of the gab!


Yes, I watched it. I can't help but feel there is so much division within the dog training community (look at the fuss over her TV prog by trainers who I would have through would have been more supportive) then there is the cynical side of me that just thinks it will become another money making scheme available to those who don't question & pay their fees.

I agree that it is incredibly sad that well meaning owners can end up spending £££'s & yet still have dogs that they can't enjoy as much due to problems they are experiencing.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> I can't help but feel there is so much division within the dog training community (look at the fuss over her TV prog by trainers who I would have through would have been more supportive)


I think that no matter what Jo and Nando do there will be a group of trainers putting them down...quite ironic considering that neither bitch about other trainers


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

StormyThai said:


> I think that no matter what Jo and Nando do there will be a group of trainers putting them down...quite ironic considering that neither bitch about other trainers


Hmmm … I like her theory stuff & feel she has a lot to contribute with discussions. I also like the way she is not as quick to dismiss balanced trainers & equipment that some use. I am not a fan of his tho & have witnessed child-like name calling on a WT FB site from him that was truly appalling & very unprofessional


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Ah yes...Nando has been known to play the like for like game...I think Jo has been a good influence on his #shutupandtrain mantra but then I'm sure that we can all remember a time when our actions weren't the most grown up or civilized...I know I can for sure  

I am a fan of both though...I love watching both train.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

StormyThai said:


> Ah yes...Nando has been known to play the like for like game...I think Jo has been a good influence on his #shutupandtrain mantra but then I'm sure that we can all remember a time when our actions weren't the most grown up or civilized...I know I can for sure
> 
> I am a fan of both though...I love watching both train.


I know they are very popular & I can't fault the ways they utilise social media which is great for getting people to learn, watch training clips, etc which can be very useful for some. (They aren't my cup of tea as trainers tho).

But I think it just highlights how different we all are, how preferences differ, etc.

For me (when it comes to IGP) I love watching Ivan Balabnov, I love his training, I love his enthusiasm & expertise, his knowledge, he is amazing to listen to when discussing high drive dogs & protection work, etc ….


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Throwing a question out there
Who would you choose, if looking for a trainer today? (as a normal dog person without our knowledge)

A seasoned trainer,of over 20 yrs experience, who, whilst keeping up her knowledge of training techniques and guidance, dog traits and behaviour management, has no certificates on her wall
Or
A fairly new (over a year) trainer with certificates on her walls instead of wallpaper, but little hands on experience of real dogs, dog traits or dog behaviour

These are only two choices
No if onlys or what ifs


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

mrs phas said:


> Throwing a question out there
> Who would you choose, if looking for a trainer today? (as a normal dog person without our knowledge)
> 
> A seasoned trainer,of over 20 yrs experience, who, whilst keeping up her knowledge of training techniques and guidance, dog traits and behaviour management, has no certificates on her wall
> ...


I would want to know more information, but likely the first one.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

mrs phas said:


> Throwing a question out there
> Who would you choose, if looking for a trainer today? (as a normal dog person without our knowledge)
> 
> A seasoned trainer,of over 20 yrs experience, who, whilst keeping up her knowledge of training techniques and guidance, dog traits and behaviour management, has no certificates on her wall
> ...


Probably the first one. The dog trainer I train with hasn't got any formal qualifications nor will ever go down that route but is one of the best trainers I have trained with. He has lots of titles in the sport (IGP) & has trained teams all over the world including handlers from the armed forces. I have (& continue to) learn so much by speaking with him at our weekly classes.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

mrs phas said:


> Throwing a question out there
> Who would you choose, if looking for a trainer today? (as a normal dog person without our knowledge)
> 
> A seasoned trainer,of over 20 yrs experience, who, whilst keeping up her knowledge of training techniques and guidance, dog traits and behaviour management, has no certificates on her wall
> ...


First, assuming the training techniques are all positive.
NOTHING beats hands on experience .


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

mrs phas said:


> Throwing a question out there
> Who would you choose, if looking for a trainer today? (as a normal dog person without our knowledge)
> 
> A seasoned trainer,of over 20 yrs experience, who, whilst keeping up her knowledge of training techniques and guidance, dog traits and behaviour management, has no certificates on her wall
> ...


Most likely the first, but I would want to see both train with their dogs before deciding.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

I'd choose the first option.

In fact our present trainer who's in his early 40's has no formal qualifications but many years of experience of training dogs both in Europe and the US. What I particularly like about him is his emphasis on understanding body language, both the dog's and one's own. Something I thought I was good at, but he will point out subtle signs that I've missed 

Our previous trainer had several qualifications, but was very "Jan Fennell" so we didn't last there very long


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

I would like to know more about body language in humans, it's so important when socialising and training with dogs.

We had a behaviourist/trainer who talked about body language and spotted that when she mentioned balloons (I'm phobic of balloons) I instantly crossed my arms. And that humans do this when they're scared. Something about protecting the heart.

She started off working as a human psychologist then moved onto dogs. And was very effective.


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## kirksandallchins (Nov 3, 2007)

When training my dogs (not to a high level, just enough so that they are nice to rake on a walk and live with) I use ideas from different trainers.

Like people, dogs don't all learn the same way and the way you teach one may not work on another. I've read a lot of books and watched videos by different trainers from Barbara Woodhouse to Kikopups. There's not one trainer I agree with 100%, but a lot of them I've picked up ideas from. I don't like Cesar Milan training methods, but I like his mantra about being Calm and Assertive

I think the show should be renamed Owners Behaving (Very) Stupidly as its a more accurate title. The last one I saw was with a terrier that lived on acres of land near a dual carriage way, and I kept thinking why not fence off part of it to keep the dog safe or leave it on a lead. The two Poms were just as bad, why didn't the owners simply not give them access to the front door of buy a letter guard so the post won't drop on the floor.

I don't know if these people lacked common sense or just wanted their 15 minutes of fame on TV


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

It's a great question @mrs phas . The new trainer might lack experience but be more well versed in modern methods, and the experienced one might be stuck in the training methods of the 80's. Or not.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I suppose it also depends on the handler & how much confidence/experience they have. My trainer uses P+ at times (inc pinch collars etc), some people here would immediately then dismiss him but they would be very wrong to do so IMO. He knows how I train & changes to accommodate what I am happy using. He wouldn't pressurise me into doing anything against my ethics but then I'm not the sort of person who wouldn't feel I couldn't speak up.
He is well read on many forms of dog training but uses what works for him & the dogs he sees. He often has dogs in that have been failed by other trainers, are aggressive, etc & I have watched him turn these dogs around. He is very blunt with people (which a lot of people don't like) but again I much prefer this.
For me, whilst dog behaviour & learning is a science, actual training is an art. I know so many people who have degrees in behaviour yet aren't particularly good trainers. Training is so skilful, the more I learn the more I realise this It is so much more than just clicking & treating a desired behaviour, so many considerations, so much more than just the animal but ourselves & our body language, relationships, emotions, etc. So when I see people who are good trainers I am awe of them as they do make it look so easy …. & it really isn't!


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Cleo38 said:


> . My trainer uses P+ at times (inc pinch collars etc) !


I'm sorry, but a good trainer should be able to control and train a dog without the aid of these horrible things.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Happy Paws2 said:


> I'm sorry, but a good trainer should be able to control and train a dog without the aid of these horrible things.


In your opinion maybe, I disagree …, & as we have discussed in previous thread lots of tools can be aversive to the dog including headcollars


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

I think regulation would ensure that trainers/behaviourists do abide by a certain code of practice - they must register an address, register for tax, state their qualifications and be fully insured for example. But it wouldn't ensure everyone sings from the same hymn sheet so you will always have those that practice confrontational training and those that advocate force free.

As for who i would choose for a trainer - well, for me I like personal recommendations and I use this when choosing other professionals such as builders and plumbers so I would probably ask around or see who has used either of the examples given and decide from there. Experience is fantastic but only if backed up by sound knowledge. In a behaviourist however I would require actual qualifications as knowledge of the science behind the behaviour is vital.

J


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

StormyThai said:


> Most likely the first, but I would want to see both train with their dogs before deciding.


I think I'd want to see them train other people and their dogs first. Just because one size doesn't fit all.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

When I joined APDT, I was assessed on previous experience, and how I currently trained, and that included someone coming and critiquing how I ran classes and trained. Entry definitely wasn’t a foregone conclusion.

BIPDT was a week residential, again with no guarantee that you were accepted at the end of that time (there were fails).

IF it could be that anybody setting up as a ‘trainer’ had to reach these tested standards (I’m not suggesting that these are the only ones applicable) then that would be good.
Maybe some sort of local registration?

Any one of us could probably organise something, but give it to local government to do.........??


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

He's back folks, like a bad smell. Series 3 started earlier this week. I decided to watch it as I personally feel it's important for me to see what my clients may be watching. Same old rubbish and creating potentially dangerous scenarios. 

I think, coupled with the awful advice given on breakfast TV this week I've had my quota for now.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Sairy said:


> He's back folks, like a bad smell. Series 3 started earlier this week. I decided to watch it as I personally feel it's important for me to see what my clients may be watching. Same old rubbish and creating potentially dangerous scenarios.
> 
> I think, coupled with the awful advice given on breakfast TV this week I've had my quota for now.


I feel like there is so much misinformation out there at the moment on forums and TV.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I couldn't bring myself to watch him again, I always feel like throwing something at the TV.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Happy Paws2 said:


> I couldn't bring myself to watch him again, I always feel like throwing something at the TV.


I completely understand that. I was in two minds about watching it, but we're actually bringing up the whole TV dog training thing with our clients so I thought if I watched then I could see what they may have been viewing. What suprises me is the number of people online who think he's great.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Sairy said:


> I completely understand that. I was in two minds about watching it, but we're actually bringing up the whole TV dog training thing with our clients so I thought if I watched then I could see what they may have been viewing. What suprises me is the number of people online who think he's great.


I've not seen it but have watched things similar and I think it's because people see it and think they will get quick results without having to put the work in.

Don't want to get up in the night to let the dog out withhold water, puppy crying in crate stick some ear plugs in it will learn. No recall use a shock collar or spray with water.

I am a real newbie with dog training I'm so glad I joined this forum because there is so much misinformation out there. I've just joined a boxer Facebook page which I think I will leave. One women asked about recall apparently a man shouted at her when her boxer wouldn't come back and she had to get in his space to get her. Majority of folk saying the man was in the wrong ! What? The advice was just her dog would learn it's a phase.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Boxer123 said:


> I've not seen it but have watched things similar and I think it's because people see it and think they will get quick results without having to put the work in.
> 
> Don't want to get up in the night to let the dog out withhold water, puppy crying in crate stick some ear plugs in it will learn. No recall use a shock collar or spray with water.
> 
> I am a real newbie with dog training I'm so glad I joined this forum because there is so much misinformation out there. I've just joined a boxer Facebook page which I think I will leave. One women asked about recall apparently a man shouted at her when her boxer wouldn't come back and she had to get in his space to get her. Majority of folk saying the man was in the wrong ! What? The advice was just her dog would learn it's a phase.


Yup I'm on a number of GSD groups on Facebook and often find myself wondering why. I get so infuriated by some of the stuff posted on there. Things like stories of dogs chasing postmen and "postmen should expect it - the dog is just doing his job". It makes me so angry. But then I think sometimes it is good to know what we're up against. Sometimes I steer well clear for my own sanity though!

I find with GSD groups that a lot of people hold the opinion that GSDs need to be shown who is boss. Such a load of misinformation out there.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Sairy said:


> Yup I'm on a number of GSD groups on Facebook and often find myself wondering why. I get so infuriated by some of the stuff posted on there. Things like stories of dogs chasing postmen and "postmen should expect it - the dog is just doing his job". It makes me so angry. But then I think sometimes it is good to know what we're up against. Sometimes I steer well clear for my own sanity though!
> 
> I find with GSD groups that a lot of people hold the opinion that GSDs need to be shown who is boss. Such a load of misinformation out there.


That's another gem showing them who is boss.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Sairy said:


> I completely understand that. I was in two minds about watching it, but we're actually bringing up the whole TV dog training thing with our clients so I thought if I watched then I could see what they may have been viewing. What suprises me is the number of people online who think he's great.


I see the same on the GR groups I belong to along with using various aversives like the bottle of pebbles, various sprays to stop dogs barking and showing who's boss which can be hard on them as they are a sensitive breed and don't fare well to harsher treatments. Thankfully there are a few of us who try to get the point across of not doing these things as the dog actually doesn't learn anything and there are better ways. But the better ways can often take time and people want an instant cure. Feels like you're wading through mud sometimes especially when someone pipes up with Well so and so on the telly does it so it must be the best way.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Siskin said:


> I see the same on the GR groups I belong to along with using various aversives like the bottle of pebbles, various sprays to stop dogs barking and showing who's boss which can be hard on them as they are a sensitive breed and don't fare well to harsher treatments. Thankfully there are a few of us who try to get the point across of not doing these things as the dog actually doesn't learn anything and there are better ways. But the better ways can often take time and people want an instant cure. Feels like you're wading through mud sometimes especially when someone pipes up with Well so and so on the telly does it so it must be the best way.


GSDs are also really sensitive (a common misconception) and don't respond well to aversive methods either. Really sad.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Boxer123 said:


> I've not seen it but have watched things similar and I think it's because people see it and think they will get quick results without having to put the work in.
> 
> Don't want to get up in the night to let the dog out withhold water, puppy crying in crate stick some ear plugs in it will learn. No recall use a shock collar or spray with water.
> 
> I am a real newbie with dog training I'm so glad I joined this forum because there is so much misinformation out there. I've just joined a boxer Facebook page which I think I will leave. One women asked about recall apparently a man shouted at her when her boxer wouldn't come back and she had to get in his space to get her. Majority of folk saying the man was in the wrong ! What? The advice was just her dog would learn it's a phase.


My friend (dog trainer, known to her friends as the 'Boxer Witch') has started her own fb group and now website dedicated to boxers. If you want me to send you the link I will. It's all force-free reward based stuff, and she's lovely (and actually likes boxers! Weirdo ).

But some breed groups are just awful. The shar pei one I joined was horrendous, and the Mali rescue page I'm on seems to think they need 'special' training by people who aren't pet dog trainers. (What they mean is choke chains and punishment. Of course all reward based trainers can't train dogs with drive and are 'cookie pushers' who let their dogs get away with anything and don't have boundaries  )


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Sarah H said:


> My friend (dog trainer, known to her friends as the 'Boxer Witch') has started her own fb group and now website dedicated to boxers. If you want me to send you the link I will. It's all force-free reward based stuff, and she's lovely (and actually likes boxers! Weirdo ).
> 
> But some breed groups are just awful. The shar pei one I joined was horrendous, and the Mali rescue page I'm on seems to think they need 'special' training by people who aren't pet dog trainers. (What they mean is choke chains and punishment. Of course all reward based trainers can't train dogs with drive and are 'cookie pushers' who let their dogs get away with anything and don't have boundaries  )


That would be great thank you.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Sairy said:


> What suprises me is the number of people online who think he's great.


I used to be surprised by this too...
And then I thought about it, and when you think that most want a quick fix it starts to make perfect sense.

Personally I have come to the conclusion that dog training does not belong on the TV...B-Mod isn't "sexy" enough so gets cut to the point of not making sense and it puts have-a-go "experts" (I include both CM and VS in this) into the limelight.
The general public want to see dogs going bat $hit crazy to then be "fixed" in front of their eyes...anything else isn't good enough


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I really think dogs training is common sense, When we had Dillon was a teenager we took him a to behaviorist, we were there an hour, all we got out of the visit was to be told, we need to try hair off is face (which at the time wasn't really long enough) to be told he was unsure, and toy which stole from her box and she let him keep and a wasted of £90. Then we took him to training that last lasted a few months with me giving up and in tears, so we decided to try train him ourselves, taking a few pointers from training we managed to slowly turn our crazy dog into a kind and gentle boy. 

We still miss our beautiful gentle boy.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> I think it's because people see it and think they will get quick results without having to put the work in.


This. 
It permeates everything about modern life. We want quick and easy. Buy this appliance to make cooking quick and easy. Take this pill to make weight loss quick and easy, get a roomba, make vacuuming quick and easy. Okay, some things really are better off quick and easy (I want a roomba dammit!), but some things are worth the work and the journey.

Relationships are work, you have to put in the effort. And your relationship with your dog is no different. The relationship will develop based on the effort you're willing to put in. 
And frankly, some people are perfectly happy with a superficial, somewhat distant relationship with their dog. The 'dog as furniture' type owners who are happy for the dog to be a presence, but not much more. I don't think these folks are very reachable as far as finding better ways.

But there are owners out there who recognize that a deep, meaningful relationship with your dog really is possible, and they may want it for themselves, they just can't get around how to get there. Those are the owners worth talking to and trying to educate.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Happy Paws2 said:


> so we decided to try train him ourselves, taking a few pointers from training we managed to slowly turn our crazy dog into a kind and gentle boy.
> 
> We still miss our beautiful gentle boy.


I think that's the exact point and where training classes (or a one-to-one trainer) can be invaluable. In my classes I don't expect everyone to absorb every single thing I teach, but if they can learn a few helpful pointers that will set them in the right direction then it has been worthwhile. Some people come already pretty clued up on training, but they might not have considered a simple thing, such as their hand placement or posture, and putting that right can make the world of difference.

I completely agree that sometimes behaviourist sessions can be a waste of time, depending on the behaviourist. My business partner went to see a lady who had a collie x springer who was digging up their garden. Apparently the previous behaviourist she had seen told her that she would never be able to have a nice garden with that type of dog, and charged her a fortune for the pleasure!

Have you thought about getting another dog at all, perhaps an older rescue or something?


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

I remember being so excited that he was going to deal with fence fighting! .............and then he just shouted "NO!" a few times and pointed


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

StormyThai said:


> Personally I have come to the conclusion that dog training does not belong on the TV...B-Mod isn't "sexy" enough so gets cut to the point of not making sense and it puts have-a-go "experts" (I include both CM and VS in this) into the limelight.
> The general public want to see dogs going bat $hit crazy to then be "fixed" in front of their eyes...anything else isn't good enough


Not only is it not 'sexy' enough, it's also complex, and unless you have a pretty decent understanding of behavior, emotions and how the two interact, a lot of what good trainers do is going to look ridiculous.

Take rapid fire treats without the context of understanding the purpose and effectiveness of something like that. Put a dog in a sit and then feed, feed, feed. To the untrained eye that looks stupid. Or at least pointless. 
It takes a very special person who not only knows what to do, but can explain it quickly enough in lay terms to make it make sense. And those people are smart enough to know they don't want to be on TV


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Sairy said:


> Have you thought about getting another dog at all, perhaps an older rescue or something?


We would love another dog but with both of us having health problems and not been able to walk very far, we don't think it would be fair on a dog to have a nice home and then make it an orphan and have the poor dog rehomed again.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

O2.0 said:


> This.
> It permeates everything about modern life. We want quick and easy. Buy this appliance to make cooking quick and easy. Take this pill to make weight loss quick and easy, get a roomba, make vacuuming quick and easy. Okay, some things really are better off quick and easy (I want a roomba dammit!), but some things are worth the work and the journey.
> 
> Relationships are work, you have to put in the effort. And your relationship with your dog is no different. The relationship will develop based on the effort you're willing to put in.
> ...





Happy Paws2 said:


> We would love another dog but with both of us having health problems and not been able to walk very far, we don't think it would be fair on a dog to have a nice home and then make it an orphan and have the poor dog rehomed again.


I can understand that. It must be hard.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Sairy said:


> I can understand that. It must be hard.


It is.... knowing we could give a dog so much love.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Gemmaa said:


> I remember being so excited that he was going to deal with fence fighting! .............and then he just shouted "NO!" a few times and pointed


I nearly spat my tea out reading this :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


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## Engel98 (Oct 7, 2018)

Happy Paws2 said:


> I couldn't bring myself to watch him again, I always feel like throwing something at the TV.


I thought I was the only one haha. Coupled with shouting at the TV, both at him and the people


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

I watched it and you didn’t miss anything. In case you’re wondering it’s not a good idea to use lemon drizzle cake to get a dog to move or give them a pink car. Who’d have thought!!


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## Jason25 (May 8, 2018)

Jobeth said:


> I watched it and you didn't miss anything. In case you're wondering it's not a good idea to use lemon drizzle cake to get a dog to move or give them a pink car. Who'd have thought!!


I was in tears when I seen the little dog being driven about in that toy car :Hilarious

I don't really agree with all his methods but I can understand his thinking with some of the stuff lol.

With the fat doggo who will only walk for cake, he made the point of being more exciting/interesting on the walk, and it worked the dog started walking without cake!

Then he put on the brakes and didn't want to move. I seen he didn't take no for an answer and pulled the dog until he started walking again. As bad as it looked, did it really upset the dog? He seemed pretty happy once walking again?

Just my thoughts anyway lol


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

Admin please remove if inappropriate.

@Klevis. You will get a better response if you start a new thread in the 'kn*bs who troll' section.

We don't do 'spanking' on PF. Not to our dogs anyway.

This is a force free forum.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Linda Weasel said:


> Admin please remove if inappropriate.
> 
> @Klevis. You will get a better response if you start a new thread in the 'kn*bs who troll' section.
> 
> ...


I agree that we should not be condoning "spanking" or anything along those lines, but I don't know whether describing the forum as a force-free forum would prevent some people from joining. Not everyone on here would necessarily describe themself as a "force-free" trainer.

I too wondered if this was a trolling post. It does seem strange. Would be good if Klevis would post about their own dog rather than just dishing out advice.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Klevis said:


> Don't use physical punishment, even spanking, until your dog is three months old. Limit your punishment to tone changes, but never use excessive shouting.
> Once he's three months old, a light but palpable slap on the butt with the palm of your hand should do the trick.


What retrograde, appalling 'advice'. Anyone who thinks they can build a trust relationship that involves any slapping or spanking has no place in training any animal.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Happy Paws2 said:


> We would love another dog but with both of us having health problems and not been able to walk very far, we don't think it would be fair on a dog to have a nice home and then make it an orphan and have the poor dog rehomed again.


Could you foster for the Cinnamon Trust, perhaps just smaller, older dogs?


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## tyg'smum (Aug 14, 2018)

Burrowzig said:


> What retrograde, appalling 'advice'. Anyone who thinks they can build a trust relationship that involves any slapping or spanking has no place in training any animal.


And the horrifying implication here - "Don't use physical punishment, even spanking" - is that Klevis sees nothing wrong with using force in excess of what he considers a spank to be.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Burrowzig said:


> Could you foster for the Cinnamon Trust, perhaps just smaller, older dogs?


I think they would take one look at us and say no.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Jason25 said:


> With the fat doggo who will only walk for cake, he made the point of being more exciting/interesting on the walk, and it worked the dog started walking without cake!
> 
> Then he put on the brakes and didn't want to move. I seen he didn't take no for an answer and pulled the dog until he started walking again. As bad as it looked, did it really upset the dog? He seemed pretty happy once walking again?


@boxer had a wonderful thread on her struggles with Loki and he too would do the refusal to move thing. It's not at all uncommon for dogs to get "stuck" when they're feeling conflicted, confused, unsure, all sorts of reasons. 
Yes, you can just force them to move on, but - and this is a big caveat, within the context of an already trusting relationship and not in a way that's going to harm the dog.

For example I showed boxer a leash wrap and was very clear that the wrap goes around the dog's chest, right behind the armpits, NOT behind the ribs as some internet examples show. 
I didn't see the episode, but if the dog was on a collar, pulling on the collar a) only activates the opposition reflex, and b) can potentially damage the neck structures, not to mention a fat dog isn't going to be breathing that well anyway. Restricting even more air is probably not the best thing. And finally, if he had just met the dog, it's not his place to 'force' the dog to do anything, there is no relationship established, and the dog will be confused at best, and certainly not learn that this is a trustworthy human.

And that's the problem with a lot of these methods, the 'harm' is not clearly visible, it doesn't seem that big of a deal, but the TV trainer isn't the one who has to live with that dog after the show is over. 
There are just so much better ways it's really frustrating to watch shit like that being shared far and wide as 'expert' advice.



Klevis said:


> I would like to give some advice that has helped me in raising my pet.
> Take your time.
> Don't try to teach puppy all the commands at once, just work through them one at a time. Be patient and methodical. Don't scold him if he makes mistakes and be sure to encourage him when he does.
> Be attentive and patient. Remember that every animal is different and learns at its own pace.
> ...


Speaking of frustrating. Did you even read the thread? Everyone talking about not hitting dogs and modern more effective, less cruel ways and you come on here talking about hitting 3 month old puppies? WTF dude?


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## Jason25 (May 8, 2018)

O2.0 said:


> @boxer had a wonderful thread on her struggles with Loki and he too would do the refusal to move thing. It's not at all uncommon for dogs to get "stuck" when they're feeling conflicted, confused, unsure, all sorts of reasons.
> Yes, you can just force them to move on, but - and this is a big caveat, within the context of an already trusting relationship and not in a way that's going to harm the dog.
> 
> For example I showed boxer a leash wrap and was very clear that the wrap goes around the dog's chest, right behind the armpits, NOT behind the ribs as some internet examples show.
> ...


I understand what you are saying but it looked like the dog stopped moving because he wasn't getting cake and tried holding out to see if they were gonna give him it to make him move. Not because he was scared of something happening around him.

also isn't it about body language as well? After he refused, he got pulled and started walking again. He went back what he looked like when they first started getting him to walk by being exciting.

Surely if it was having a negative effect on the dog, he wouldn't of walked the way he did, his body language would of changed for the rest of the walk?

The scene made me think of Michael Ellis saying when he first gets a pup he will put it on a lead and walk in a straight line, when the pup resists he keeps walking and as soon as the puppy starts walking towards him he stops pulling and rewards. He mentions something about it teaching the pup that a bit of pressure won't hurt him and isn't the end of the world.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I've removed the posts & deleted the member advocating hitting dogs!


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Jason25 said:


> I understand what you are saying but it looked like the dog stopped moving because he wasn't getting cake and tried holding out to see if they were gonna give him it to make him move. Not because he was scared of something happening around him.
> 
> also isn't it about body language as well? After he refused, he got pulled and started walking again. He went back what he looked like when they first started getting him to walk by being exciting.
> 
> ...


I actually think he was lucky that the newfie complied as easily as he did. Sometimes when a dog digs his heels in he is not budging, and if it's a big dog like a newfie then you can't really argue with it!

Anyway, it wasn't so much that case that I found concerning. The idea that just shouting "no" at a reactive dog will help is ridiculous. There was no discussion about why the great dane might be reacting to dogs, what emotions might be behind it and how to help the dog overcome those emotions. It was just a case of "no, I don't like that behaviour so stop it". If we are saying this to our dogs who are nervous or fearful then what does it say about our relationship with them, that we are not concerned for what they might be feeling as long as they shut up about it?

The one I found most concerning was the dog that was reacting to children. The method Graeme used was to have a child walk towards the dog and every time the dog reacted he was told "no". Again, not considering why the dog might be reacting and how we can help that dog, just making sure the dog keeps its feelings to itself. Very dangerous, especially where children are concerned, and it worries me the number of people who might copy this method. So if their child approaches the dog and the dog reacts in a negative way that dog will be told off.

The man has absolutely no credible qualifications, yet is dishing out advice that millions of people will be seeing and potentially copying. It's a shambles.


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## LotsaDots (Apr 15, 2016)

As someone with a sporadically reactive dog I feel the way he dealt with the great dane was ridiculous I wish I could say no a couple of times and stand in front of her but I know that simply wouldn't work. She reacts on impulse not because she is being naughty and needs telling off. I agree that dog needed boundaries but find it hard to believe he was permanently cured of all his issues in that 1 short session.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

simplysardonic said:


> I've removed the posts & deleted the member advocating hitting dogs!


Aw man! I was gearing up for a good old debate  or at least some entertainment in how we're 'soft' and have spoiled, badly behaved dogs 



Jason25 said:


> I understand what you are saying but it looked like the dog stopped moving because he wasn't getting cake and tried holding out to see if they were gonna give him it to make him move. Not because he was scared of something happening around him.
> 
> also isn't it about body language as well? After he refused, he got pulled and started walking again. He went back what he looked like when they first started getting him to walk by being exciting.
> 
> ...


Again, haven't seen the clip so it's really hard for me to comment blind if you will.

Michael Ellis is talking about puppies, before the behavior has been ingrained. The biggest difference is that from what I can tell of your descriptions, this dog has been practicing a behavior and being rewarded for it. Whether the 'reward' is deliberate or not, the dog has learned that this behavior "works." A brand new puppy who's just experiencing the world being told "no buddy that's not going to work" is a very different thing than a dog who's practicing an ingrained behavior and you're trying to change it. 
The dog practicing a behavior that has worked well for him before and now being told it isn't going to work, is going to be much more confused, conflicted and stressed by something suddenly not working.

Think of it this way. If you're trying to open your front door with your door key that has worked for you every other time and now suddenly it doesn't, that's going to confuse the hell out of you and stress you out. 
As opposed to having a random set of keys and random doors and trying the keys out - if they work cool, if they don't you move on to the next door, no worries.

Not all things that have a negative effect on a dog show up right away. The first time you scold your puppy for soiling in the house you may not see any obvious changes, but do that enough times and you may end up with a puppy who hides to soil in the house making it much harder to deal with in the long term.

In the same way, forcing a dog to move may not immediately have any noticeable effects, but these things compound. And in what other ways is this owner eroding trust with their dog? Again, I don't know, I haven't seen any of the clips, it may be totally fine, but IME there are better ways.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Sairy said:


> I actually think he was lucky that the newfie complied as easily as he did. Sometimes when a dog digs his heels in he is not budging, and if it's a big dog like a newfie then you can't really argue with it!
> 
> Anyway, it wasn't so much that case that I found concerning. The idea that just shouting "no" at a reactive dog will help is ridiculous. There was no discussion about why the great dane might be reacting to dogs, what emotions might be behind it and how to help the dog overcome those emotions. It was just a case of "no, I don't like that behaviour so stop it". If we are saying this to our dogs who are nervous or fearful then what does it say about our relationship with them, that we are not concerned for what they might be feeling as long as they shut up about it?
> 
> ...


Oh man that's really worrisome 

Now I kind of wish there were a clip I could watch. Anything on youtube maybe?


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

O2.0 said:


> Oh man that's really worrisome
> 
> Now I kind of wish there were a clip I could watch. Anything on youtube maybe?


If you can deal with me filming it from my phone whilst playing it on TV then I can upload it for you.


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## Jason25 (May 8, 2018)

O2.0 said:


> Aw man! I was gearing up for a good old debate  or at least some entertainment in how we're 'soft' and have spoiled, badly behaved dogs
> 
> Again, haven't seen the clip so it's really hard for me to comment blind if you will.
> 
> ...


I got you, it's just the way it's filmed it's understandable why the general dog owner may think it will work. It even had me questioning it lol (the dog refusing to walk without cake, not the reactive Dane walking around past a line of people with dogs)


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

You might be able to watch it here: https://www.channel5.com/show/dogs-behaving-very-badly/

I was more worried the poor dog was going to have a heart attack after suddenly having so much exercise.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Sairy said:


> If you can deal with me filming it from my phone whilst playing it on TV then I can upload it for you.


If you don't mind, I would like to see at least what the great dane clip is about


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Jobeth said:


> You might be able to watch it here: https://www.channel5.com/show/dogs-behaving-very-badly/
> 
> I was more worried the poor dog was going to have a heart attack after suddenly having so much exercise.


Nope 
Have to be located in the UK which I'm not.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

I know I started this thread 
But 
I have to admit 
I haven't watched it since the first series 
And 
Having read the new posts re the new series 
Have no wont to do so, ever again


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

mrs phas said:


> I know I started this thread
> But
> I have to admit
> I haven't watched it since the first series
> ...


There was a Chinese Crested on tonight, very agressive ! And for me a very reactive dachshund, Bobby showed his disapproval.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

SusieRainbow said:


> There was a Chinese Crested on tonight, very agressive ! And for me a very reactive dachshund, Bobby showed his disapproval.


You are evil :Joyful
You know now I will have to go watch it


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

simplysardonic said:


> I've removed the posts & deleted the member advocating hitting dogs!


I'm all for banning the member, but I feel that removing their post was not warranted. The poster may appear on other forums, where people accept their poor methods. Let them be hoist by their own petard, and show them up clearly for what they are - and also the reaction that such rubbish advice is likely to bring forth here..


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Given up and decided to watch other nights program, let you know what I think later.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Burrowzig said:


> I'm all for banning the member, but I feel that removing their post was not warranted. The poster may appear on other forums, where people accept their poor methods. Let them be hoist by their own petard, and show them up clearly for what they are - and also the reaction that such rubbish advice is likely to bring forth here..


In hindsight I probably should have, but it looked like loads of the copy/pasted stuff we get so I treated it as spam, which bans the member & deletes their posts. I don't think I can bring the post back but @O2.0 has quoted it so it's still viewable in all its patronising & erroneous glory.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Here you go @O2.0

Apologies for the quality, but hopefully you get the idea. Just before this clip they had been discussing the dane's behaviour whilst at the lady's house and she had described it, but of course as we know the description is never enough in these programmes and he needed to see it for himself


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

I can see people using the ‘Dane’ method and getting bitten, by their own dog’s redirected aggression.

No chance of curing the root cause when you only cure the symptoms.

This guy is such a con artist.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Linda Weasel said:


> I can see people using the 'Dane' method and getting bitten, by their own dog's redirected aggression.
> 
> No chance of curing the root cause when you only cure the symptoms.
> 
> This guy is such a con artist.


Exactly, and even worse when it involves a child like the other example.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

"The dane method" The effect of that will wear off!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Sairy said:


> Here you go @O2.0
> 
> Apologies for the quality, but hopefully you get the idea. Just before this clip they had been discussing the dane's behaviour whilst at the lady's house and she had described it, but of course as we know the description is never enough in these programmes and he needed to see it for himself


Well I wish someone had just told me to tell loki to calm down why didn't I think of that . They are setting that dog up to fail by tying him up and frog matching loads of dogs past. No mention of distance. And finally it is a common misconception that dogs are protecting you people always say this about Loki that he's protecting me he's not.

I think a few of you on PF should make a dog training show.


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## LotsaDots (Apr 15, 2016)

I've been told Dottie is protecting me aswell, I don't believe she is I actually don't think theres a logical reason, other dogs may be different but in her it is an involuntary reaction, an impulse that certain dogs trigger in her. I actually made the mistake of telling her off for it in the past, now she will react then get stressed that she's going to be scolded. I didn't watch last night because it makes me too angry!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

LotsaDots said:


> I've been told Dottie is protecting me aswell, I don't believe she is I actually don't think theres a logical reason, other dogs may be different but in her it is an involuntary reaction, an impulse that certain dogs trigger in her. I actually made the mistake of telling her off for it in the past, now she will react then get stressed that she's going to be scolded. I didn't watch last night because it makes me too angry!


Loki is the same triggered by certain dogs or people he's way over threshold to listen to someone telling him to calm down. Singing does work I stood on a field singing The Turtles today whilst a dog walking group went past.


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## LotsaDots (Apr 15, 2016)

Boxer123 said:


> Loki is the same triggered by certain dogs or people he's way over threshold to listen to someone telling him to calm down. Singing does work I stood on a field singing The Turtles today whilst a dog walking group went past.


Oooh I havent tried singing, It would certainly move people on quicker if nothing else! Dottie gives no warning is the problem, she will literally fly at another dog and attack she's on the lead but has ripped it from my hand twice, never done any actual damage but not a pleasant experience I wear a waist belt now with an extra strong carabiner. If it was every dog we could work hard at it but it's only about 10% she will react to, some she will want to greet and wags her tail and some she will lie on her back legs akimbo.. No idea what her criteria is or her reasons. It's weird. Glad Loki seems to be improving you've worked so hard with him it's great to hear you are getting some results.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

LotsaDots said:


> Oooh I havent tried singing, It would certainly move people on quicker if nothing else! Dottie gives no warning is the problem, she will literally fly at another dog and attack she's on the lead but has ripped it from my hand twice, never done any actual damage but not a pleasant experience I wear a waist belt now with an extra strong carabiner. If it was every dog we could work hard at it but it's only about 10% she will react to, some she will want to greet and wags her tail and some she will lie on her back legs akimbo.. No idea what her criteria is or her reasons. It's weird. Glad Loki seems to be improving you've worked so hard with him it's great to hear you are getting some results.


It's interesting you say that I was think today it's only about 10 per cent Loki reacts to but I really focus on it and get upset because it's so bad. Luckily the same people in the village tend to be out at the same time I know who it is so can avoid them mostly by guessing there timetable. When he's not reacting he seems like such a friendly boy.

I think singing works two fold I pop him between my legs and sing and he looks up at me but it also calms me down instead of me saying, 'no loki calm down' and yes it moves people on quickly.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Sairy said:


> Here you go @O2.0
> 
> Apologies for the quality, but hopefully you get the idea. Just before this clip they had been discussing the dane's behaviour whilst at the lady's house and she had described it, but of course as we know the description is never enough in these programmes and he needed to see it for himself


Does he say how old the dane is? 
I'm going to guess he's less than 3? 
That looks like a 1.5 or 2 year old idiot teenager being an idiot teenager. Maybe I've had too many idiot dogs, but I wouldn't even label that reactivity. It's just a juvenile dog being an ass. 
Agreed, I don't seen any protectiveness, nor aggression really. It's very typical young dog behavior that you see in the working group breeds. That could easily be a dobie, rottie, or other working group dog at that age.

I also agree that tying him up was stupid. I do deal with this type of behavior with punishment as in removing any opportunity for interaction or visual stimulation. Because that's what the dog is enjoying, getting themselves worked up and being stimulated by the environment. So by removing those opportunities, it is essentially punishment. Depending on the dog and my relationship with him I might also add a 'knock it off you big oaf' but really it's just a case of "nope, that's not how we're going to behave, back to boringville for you until you can get your head in gear." You move the dog away from the distraction, create distance, get the dog's head back, and work from there. Done.

They grow a brain eventually and until then, you don't let them practice being an idiot. 
The fact that the trainer didn't remove him from that environment at the first outburst tells me a lot right there. If the dog can't handle the situation you put him in, you remove him! That's like basic, basic, stuff. You don't sit there letting the owner drown and the dog practice completely unacceptable behavior. That's some sort of sadistic voyeurism there. Ick.

I don't think the dog understood the body blocking at all. I think he just saw a human being strange and decided to lay down and make himself less noticeable. I don't see that working long term with his owner at all. She needs a crash course in leash handling and better equipment so she has control over her dog. 
Friggin' train wreck that


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

O2.0 said:


> Does he say how old the dane is?
> I'm going to guess he's less than 3?
> That looks like a 1.5 or 2 year old idiot teenager being an idiot teenager. Maybe I've had too many idiot dogs, but I wouldn't even label that reactivity. It's just a juvenile dog being an ass.
> Agreed, I don't seen any protectiveness, nor aggression really. It's very typical young dog behavior that you see in the working group breeds. That could easily be a dobie, rottie, or other working group dog at that age.
> ...


I think regardless of the reason for the behaviour, clearly keeping the dog in that environment was not a good idea. And yes, it seems like a way to make the owner feel bad like she can't handle the dog. Not good.

I think the Dane was quite young. Can't remember the age, but I think he would fit in with your description.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

O2.0 said:


> You don't sit there letting the owner drown and the dog practice completely unacceptable behavior. That's some sort of sadistic voyeurism there. Ick.


I haven't watched this series but that is par for the course with this guy, setting the dogs up to fail for "entertainment ". Because let's remember this isn't about helping dogs/owners, its about selling tv advertising time through car crash tv; on a par with a lot of other cringeworthy shows.

In fact, I'm still wondering if there is a case against him under the Animal Welfare Act because in an earlier series where two household dogs regularly fought in a resource guarding situation, he created an environment where a fight broke out. Given that he engineered that, and it could be reasonably expected that a fight would be the result, that must breach the "freedom from fear" and "freedom from pain" principles of the Animal Welfare Act. And let's not even start on setting up a dog fight.

Do we have any lawyers amongst us who could comment?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

JoanneF said:


> In fact, I'm still wondering if there is a case against him under the Animal Welfare Act because in an earlier series where two household dogs regularly fought in a resource guarding situation, he created an environment where a fight broke out. Given that he engineered that, and it could be reasonably expected that a fight would be the result, that must breach the "freedom from fear" and "freedom from pain" principles of the Animal Welfare Act. And let's not even start on setting up a dog fight.


I used to argue that all the time with CM to no avail. 
It is illegal in this country, in all 50 states to purposefully fight dogs. CM would regularly put dogs in situations where he KNEW a fight would break out, televise it, and profit from it. In any other context that would be a federal offense.


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## LotsaDots (Apr 15, 2016)

Boxer123 said:


> It's interesting you say that I was think today it's only about 10 per cent Loki reacts to but I really focus on it and get upset because it's so bad. Luckily the same people in the village tend to be out at the same time I know who it is so can avoid them mostly by guessing there timetable. When he's not reacting he seems like such a friendly boy.
> 
> I think singing works two fold I pop him between my legs and sing and he looks up at me but it also calms me down instead of me saying, 'no loki calm down' and yes it moves people on quickly.


Dottie is fine if she's met the dog once already even if she's reacted the 1st time, the 2nd time she won't react, may even try and be friendly towards it so its only strange dogs that fit her (secret) criteria I have to worry about. We have put management in place now which makes me more confident, the waist belt means she can't take my by surprise and if we go anywhere with her and stop she gets anchored to something solid. Doesn't cure the issue but helps my anxiety levels which can't be a bad thing.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

LotsaDots said:


> Dottie is fine if she's met the dog once already even if she's reacted the 1st time, the 2nd time she won't react, may even try and be friendly towards it so its only strange dogs that fit her (secret) criteria I have to worry about. We have put management in place now which makes me more confident, the waist belt means she can't take my by surprise and if we go anywhere with her and stop she gets anchored to something solid. Doesn't cure the issue but helps my anxiety levels which can't be a bad thing.


Maybe we can set her Loki up to discuss the secret criteria I wish I could get in his head. Normally large black dogs are a trigger met a Bernese mountain dog yesterday and he loved her.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Maybe Loki should go on Dogs Behaving Badly so he can be told to calm down and magically be fixed.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Just watched last nights prog. I haven't changed my mind about him, will not be watching him again.


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