# Preloved - for sale



## draculita (Jun 15, 2008)

I was just browsing through the Preloved website to see what Siamese cats were up for sale and on the first page was a unneutered female described as pedigree but without papers but can be bred from and 2 adult Siamese for sale but the picture clearly shows 1 Siamese and 1 Oriental. My rant is because these adverts encourage irresponsible breeding and can be misleading.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

This happens all the time and I'm afraid the bottom line is that there are two tiers of pedigree breeding, registered and unregistered. Every time breeders make it difficult for others to get registered breeding cats, all they do is send those people into the arms of the unregistered breeders.

liz


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Every time breeders make it difficult for others to get registered breeding cats, all they do is send those people into the arms of the unregistered breeders


I do agree with this BUT I am presently mentoring 3 novice breeders, two of which didn't get their girls from me. I cannot take on any more and I wouldn't ever encourage someone to go into breeding without a mentor. I do think you shouldn't let a cat go for breeding if you're not prepared to follow up with the proper support.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Warning, rant ahead!

I have had a message from someone wanting to use my stud. Her girl is screaming the place down and she wants her to have just one litter, her girl is pedigree but is registered on the non-active. So obviously I can't take her. Here is the rant :

This lady now has four options: 1) have the cat spayed - this is what she should do of course but she doesn't want to 2) let the cat out to have half-pedigree kittens (which, unless she is lucky, will look nothing like their mother and may well be shorthaired black / black and white, very difficult to home) 3) buy in another cat, this way at least she can get a pedigree but of course she will be breeding unregistered or 4) call up one of the people advertising unregistered studs. If she does 3 or 4, she will be producing more unregistered pedigrees.

Now, suppose instead that she had bought the cat from a breeder who said "if you ever decide you want kittens, please get in touch, don't just let the cat out or go to an unregistered stud, do it properly", not charged extra except the fee for transferring the cat to the active register, and even, perhaps, offered use of one of her own stud cats if she happens to have an unrelated one (OK that's a longshot). Then this person might be helped to join the ranks of reputable breeders, and if after one litter she decides (as many do) that she has had enough, no harm is done. If she goes on to become a regular breeder, she will be breeding properly registered cats with the necessary health checks. The breeder of the original cat will know about the kittens, will be able to follow their progress, and will be able to see how the line works out which is always useful to know for any serious breeder. Who loses? Nobody! Who gains? Everybody! So why in the world would anyone not do this?

I think pedigree breeders need to understand three things: first, telling novice buyers about the active and non-active register is simply giving information that most of them will not take in. Second, the public in general do not see someone who has just one litter as a breeder. To them, a breeder is someone who has several queens, a stud, regular litters and (as they think) makes a profit (even some of my friends who know me well seem to think I breed cats as a business!). Third, often a buyer has no intention of having kittens but then falls completely in love with the cat and at that point decides that it would be lovely to have one of her kittens.

Liz


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

So annoying isn't it?! I do agree with you Liz on so many levels - especially being fairly novice myself and trying to get my very first breeding queen was a real struggle! ANd back then I considered the unregistered route as I was getting that frustrated - and then the hassle with not being 'allowed' to use the local studs and having to travel 3 and 1/2 hours to find someone who would let me (I had a fully registered active queen at this point) when I could have gone just 20 mins away! The drive often put Minnii off call. 

It really needs to change - and that way we make the BYBs unviable!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

This is why you really need a mentor *before* you get your first breeding queen. It makes all the sense in the world for a novice to look at available studs first and then pick their queen for compatibility with those which are convenient and the owner amenable. I'd suggest that anyone wanting to breed should be looking at a two year plan - up to a year to research studs and wait on the right girl followed by another year from getting a kitten on the active register until a first litter.

Maybe it's an idea for breed clubs being the point of contact between novices looking for a mentor and breeders prepared to mentor them. It couldn't be more difficult to maintain than the kitten or stud lists.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

havoc said:


> This is why you really need a mentor *before* you get your first breeding queen. It makes all the sense in the world for a novice to look at available studs first and then pick their queen for compatibility with those which are convenient and the owner amenable. I'd suggest that anyone wanting to breed should be looking at a two year plan - up to a year to research studs and wait on the right girl followed by another year from getting a kitten on the active register until a first litter.
> 
> Maybe it's an idea for breed clubs being the point of contact between novices looking for a mentor and breeders prepared to mentor them. It couldn't be more difficult to maintain than the kitten or stud lists.


It is fantastic having a mentor - and now with the RagaMuffins (Minnii was a Birman) that's exactly how it is being done - I have my mentor - my girl was sort of chosen for me (I had final say) with a view of who her stud would be before I even saw her. The support from the whole group has been fantastic, couldn't be better. I'm really enjoying it.

I found some aspects of the cat world very closed - if you didn't have a queen no-one would talk to you about studs, if you wanted a queen but didn't have a stud lined up no-one wanted to sell you a queen. Others only wanted to sell me a show neuter first - but I didn't want to show at that point, and I need to keep the total number of cats small and a show neuter would have taken the place of one of my two queens I was wanting. Some people promised me a kitten and then gave it to someone else, or kept it themselves and said it had gone to another (then I found it on their website with it's new kittens!), others said they would help and mentor and backed out the minute I started needing help. Luckily I did eventually get a mentor but 2 years on!

Going into RagaMuffins was so easy compared to that - but by then I'd already been a breeder, had my own prefix etc. Within 5 days of considering breeding again I was offered 5 girls! (Ragdolls not RagaMuffins - I was still deciding which!) - none of which came with an offer of mentoring. I was willing to wait that year for my girl but got lucky and only had to wait 4 months. And I have two mentors (one official, one unofficial) and I feel I belong to a family of breeders - such a different world. It was one of the reasons why I chose RagaMuffins not Ragdolls. This is the way it should be done. An acceptance of new breeders but then teaching and mentoring properly and lots of encouragement.


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## Alaskacat (Aug 2, 2010)

I completely agree. I have an amazing mentor who is so generous with her time and advise, however, I did not get any of my girls from her and have never used her stud. I am just lucky that she is passionate about our breed and wants to help others to breed.

I strongly agree that breed clubs could be a point of contact from novices. It was a total shock to me when I entered the Pedigree cat world that I couldn't join a club unless I was both proposed and seconded. It isn't like that in the horse world, if you love a breed you can pay money to join a club of likeminded people. We are but small pieces in a huge jigsaw, but it would be great if clubs could open the doors a bit wider and welcome those who don't already know someone in the club. 

Sober on a Saturday night, I need to get out more!!

Katy


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

That's it though isn't it? - can't join most breed clubs without a proposer - mine was the lady who sold me Minnii for the Birman club. So the breed clubs need to change that bit.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I couldn't agree more and here's a tip for anyone having problems - drop the secretary a line. Some clubs will propose and second an applicant in committee. Alternatively, anyone visiting the Supreme can seek out their breed club table where membership can usually be arranged.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

I tried that to rejoin a club where I had been a member previously. No, they wouldn't second me in committee.

Liz


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Obviously their funds were in better shape than many and they didn't need members  Presumably there is an alternative, there is usually more than one club per breed or area clubs.


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## catlove844 (Feb 15, 2011)

Do you really think though that byb who breed for money care about registration and health tests or people who just want 'one litter' ?

I dont think they care enough for a mentor, I think that all kittens should be neutered before they go, then that can stop the people just buying then letting them outside or thinking 'lets breed'! that way if they want to they can then do it properly and contact a breeder who will sell a cat on active, which I am sure that there are alot otherwise we wouldnt have all these breeders!

Nice idea, but I dont think it will work! x


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

catlove844 said:


> Do you really think though that byb who breed for money care about registration and health tests or people who just want 'one litter' ?


No - all the more reason not to drive new breeders away and into their arms!



> I think that all kittens should be neutered before they go, then that can stop the people just buying then letting them outside or thinking 'lets breed'!


Yes, that is the only way to make sure your cats don't get bred from.

liz


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