# i need to leave my puppy



## hammers24 (Jun 8, 2010)

ello there... ive taken on an 9 week old puppy. but i need to go back to work 2moz ive taken a week off to allow puppy to settle in. i work 8 hours a day and there isnt really anyone that can come round and stay with her plus i dont have money for dog sitter either. ive got her a crate but i refuse to lock her in there 8 hours a day while im working. ive ordered a play pen aswell which should be here today she dont like being lleft alone but is getting better. what can i do???


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Why have you got a puppy if you work full time & can not afford someone to come in the day???
You should not be crating a puppy for 8hrs a day. Is there really not anyone that can help you out?


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## BigBearsRule (Jun 24, 2009)

Could you not ask a family member to come and sit with oyur pup for a while?
Or maybe a neighbour that you are friendly with.
It seems very unfair to the poor puppy to be locked away 8 or 9 hours every day.


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## vivienne (Jun 2, 2010)

Unfortunately there is no real answer to this. A puppy should not be left all day. Why oh why did you get a puppy when you cannot offer it what it needs?
If you intend to keep the puppy then I think you have to make a dog sitter of some kind a priority.
Have you thought what a boring and tedious life that pup will have being left all day and what for - so you can see it for a few hours in the evening.
Why do you think rescues won't home to people out all day.
I am sorry to say it but you haven't of the dogs needs only what you want.


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## miti999 (Mar 19, 2009)

I agree completely with all of the above. It's sheer madness to get a puppy when you can't be there to take care of it.


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## hammers24 (Jun 8, 2010)

im not crating the puppy for 8 hours. mayb i can ask my next door neibours to come in. it is no way my intention to be cruel to the dog has i love her 2 bits


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## hammers24 (Jun 8, 2010)

and im not out all day everyday either i work off a rota and my partner is gonna be ere weekends and as ive said i aint work everyday of the week


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

But you still need to consider her needs if you really do love her to bits. A puppy cannot be left all day alone like some adult dogs can.
You will need to be consitant with her toilet training & if some days she will be left alone this will start to be a big problem. 
Also i would suggest try buying her some toys in which she can interact with. My sister has recently bought a lab puppy & she has found that he gets bored very quickly (although he does know that he has to have 'calm' periods) he requires alot of stimulation to stop him chewing, whining, etc.
Try looking at some Nina Ottosson toys for him - they are a bit pricey but pups seem to love them.
You do really need to get somone in the days you are not there. You may not wish to be deliberately cruel to your pup but unfortunatley a lack of company will affect her even if she has room to run around in.


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## dinks (Apr 10, 2009)

Hi Hammers24
You simply cant leave the puppy for 8 hours a day.You will have serious issues with house training and also further training issues (mental and physical) to that will be very difficult to resolve.
One week off to allow pup to settle in is just not enough - how do you expect your pup to hold on to the toilet for 8 hours.Just not going to happen.Its also not fair to leave the pup by its self all day.
You must seek an alternative- whether thats in the form of a neighbour/friend coming in to spend time with the pup or rehoming the pup-the choice of course is yours.


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## Montys_Mum (Jun 4, 2010)

We had the same thing. I was able to pop home at lunchtimes for a week or so. We used a puppy play pen when he was very little, with his bed, toilet papers, toys, food and drink. As he got bigger we removed the pen and he has the run of the kitchen now. It CAN be done!
He is used to have the day alone, he gets the radio on, kong, toys, paper area (which he doesn't always need anymore), his bed, chews etc. 
Overnight he is shut in his crate, but never during the day.
So don't panic. It just takes time and patience, making sure puppy has all they need and are in a safe place (we made sure kitchen was totally puppy proofed first!).

We did the same thing, 9 week old puppy, stayed with him first week, then returned to work. he is now 6 months old and he copes pretty well.

Make sure pup is supplied with all he/she needs and is safe. Pop home at lunch times to begin with if you can, although we found that only upset our pup so stopped it after a week.

Our neighbour works nights so home during the day, and she reports no noise from Monty during the day at all. TBH I think once he has used up his kong and chewed the rawhide etc he sleeps a lot of the time 

Yes we'd love to be home all day, but for a lot of people that isn't always possible as most work and can't take pets to work. 

Because we started this at an early age Monty is totally used to it. He doesn't cry or bark when I leave and is happy to see us when we return home and clearly doesn't howl/bark etc during the day when we aren't there. So there is hope 

(I'll probably be lynched, but I thought it right to put the other side across and show it CAN work!).


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Montys_Mum said:


> We had the same thing. I was able to pop home at lunchtimes for a week or so. We used a puppy play pen when he was very little, with his bed, toilet papers, toys, food and drink. As he got bigger we removed the pen and he has the run of the kitchen now. It CAN be done!
> He is used to have the day alone, he gets the radio on, kong, toys, paper area (which he doesn't always need anymore), his bed, chews etc.
> Overnight he is shut in his crate, but never during the day.
> So don't panic. It just takes time and patience, making sure puppy has all they need and are in a safe place (we made sure kitchen was totally puppy proofed first!).
> ...


I can understand that dogs need to get used to being left as most owners (unfortunately ) have jobs but a pup is different. Also how can an animal be expected to not go to the toilet for 8hrs?
My dog is on his own as I work but he gets at least one visit in the middle of the day so he can go to the loo .... I wouldn't be able to hold on all day so wouldn't expect him to either


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## Montys_Mum (Jun 4, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> I can understand that dogs need to get used to being left as most owners (unfortunately ) have jobs but a pup is different. Also how can an animal be expected to not go to the toilet for 8hrs?
> My dog is on his own as I work but he gets at least one visit in the middle of the day so he can go to the loo .... I wouldn't be able to hold on all day so wouldn't expect him to either


He doesn't have to hold on. He is paper trained as well as going outdoors. During the day he has paper down and uses that if he needs too (on occasion as he is getting older he often doesn't use it at all).

When we are home he asks to go out, and overnight he is in his crate and doesn't go (we never leave him longer than 8 hrs overnight and that was gradually extended over time as he aged on recommendations through books/vets etc).

Maybe we are lucky? We used lots of different training techniques and the above solution works for us. He is pretty well house trained as you can see, and some days he does hold it all day (although he doesn't have to if he needs to go, he can and if he does, he does it on the paper).

We got a basset hound in part due to them being lower energy as we knew we'd be working as well, so maybe breed does have something to do with it.

He's good at other people's houses too, we have only tried it a couple of times so far, but he whined his need to go outside, we took him, he went and we returned inside, very proud parents 

I agree it'd be best to be at home all day, but all I am saying is that it isn't always practical and if you have a plan and do things the best you can with training and providing for the pup (which I believe we have), then it is do-able.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Montys_Mum said:


> He doesn't have to hold on. He is paper trained as well as going outdoors. During the day he has paper down and uses that if he needs too (on occasion as he is getting older he often doesn't use it at all).
> 
> When we are home he asks to go out, and overnight he is in his crate and doesn't go (we never leave him longer than 8 hrs overnight and that was gradually extended over time as he aged on recommendations through books/vets etc).
> 
> ...


Am glad it works for you! Although I do think that a really young pup needs alot more attention than an adult dog so I think the OP should have someone coming in to spend time with the pup.
I must admit I would LOVE to be at home all day with my dog & cats but like most people have to work but I still have to prioritise their needs before my own. For me it means getting to work early, no lunch hour so I can get home early & paying somone to come in during the day or arrange for Toby to go to my sisters.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

I think some breeds can accept and cope with being left alone all day, as some are downright lazy and laidback.

But a rottie/GSD cross will need extensive socialisation and training. I would be concerened about the psychological impact and how it may affect his behaviour being left alone for such a long time with no mental stimulation.

What will you do if he become destructive as he gets older? Or starts to bark for hours on end? GSD's can be very vocal.

You really need to sort something out for the middle of the day. Make some sacrifices in order to afford a dog walker or day care.


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## westie~ma (Mar 16, 2009)

Montys_Mum said:


> He doesn't have to hold on. He is paper trained as well as going outdoors. During the day he has paper down and uses that if he needs too (on occasion as he is getting older he often doesn't use it at all).
> 
> When we are home he asks to go out, and overnight he is in his crate and doesn't go (we never leave him longer than 8 hrs overnight and that was gradually extended over time as he aged on recommendations through books/vets etc).
> 
> ...


Can I ask why you use a crate at night if your Monty is so well behaved during the day unsupervised?


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## Montys_Mum (Jun 4, 2010)

westie~ma said:


> Can I ask why you use a crate at night if your Monty is so well behaved during the day unsupervised?


He has always been crated overnight, so heads that way at bedtime! hehehe We continue with it to ensure all our hard work house training isn't lost, he is 6 months old so not fully grown yet.

As with the comments on the cage thread, I don't see why the need change it? He likes it, has a thick comfy mattress, a teddy and a rawhide in there and sleeps well. Never fusses and feels safe (which I assume as he goes in it on his own as it is left open during the day).

So why change a habit he is used too? I wouldn't want to alter his routine as he seems happy as he is and changing a routine might cause him problems.

I suppose the old adage, if it ain't broke don't fix it, comes into play 

Ref breed, I do agree. We picked a low energy dog on purpose. I'd have liked a collie but knew that wouldn't be practical with our lifestyle.
And we love having Monty in our lives, my Aunt has a Basset hound too so we got some good advice from her.


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## westie~ma (Mar 16, 2009)

Montys_Mum said:


> He has always been crated overnight, so heads that way at bedtime! hehehe We continue with it to ensure all our hard work house training isn't lost, he is 6 months old so not fully grown yet.
> 
> As with the comments on the cage thread, I don't see why the need change it? He likes it, has a thick comfy mattress, a teddy and a rawhide in there and sleeps well. Never fusses and feels safe (which I assume as he goes in it on his own as it is left open during the day).
> 
> ...


I'm not having a go at you, just curious if your Monty is ok during the day on his own why you feel the need to crate him overnight 

I'm asking the question cos I crated my Monty at night when we first had him, mainly due to our cat sharing the kitchen with him so wanted to make sure they were both safe overnight.

Once I realised that he was fine during the day when I left him home-alone in the kitchen for short periods, I gradually stopped using the crate overnight cos it seemed pointless having it taking up space. He did have another bed in the kitchen as well as the crate (with an open door) and he preferred his other bed.


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## Montys_Mum (Jun 4, 2010)

westie~ma said:


> I'm not having a go at you, just curious if your Monty is ok during the day on his own why you feel the need to crate him overnight
> 
> I'm asking the question cos I crated my Monty at night when we first had him, mainly due to our cat sharing the kitchen with him so wanted to make sure they were both safe overnight.
> 
> Once I realised that he was fine during the day when I left him home-alone in the kitchen for short periods, I gradually stopped using the crate overnight cos it seemed pointless having it taking up space. He did have another bed in the kitchen as well as the crate (with an open door) and he preferred his other bed.


Ahh no worries  we have a fairly large kitchen so holds the crate pretty well and he seems to like it (well he should do, he has a thick mattress in there with a cuddley toy, blankets of the top and the sides so he sees it as his den. Some days I am jealous of all the comfort he has lol).

The cats are shut out of the kitchen overnight so as not to disturb him (we have 6 and they can cause a bit of a scene if they want too lol). And they tend to use Monty's other beds for themselves overnight lol (he has a large pillow and a blanket in the front room so can sleep near us in the evenings/weekends if he wants too).


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## kaisa624 (Mar 5, 2010)

As to the crate question, our Holly is fine during the day on her own, as she has a second bed which she uses as her day bed, and isn't crated, hwoever at night time she is always locked in her crate for the duration (well she thinks she's locked in when the reality is that she can open the door as we just shut it).

Even now, as Holly is almost 8 months, she is only left for a maximum of 2 hours on her own, and she gets a kong stuffed with frozen raw food. At 9 weeks old Holly wasn't left alone for more than 10 mins at a time, apart from in the car if we went food shopping.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

kaisa624 said:


> As to the crate question, our Holly is fine during the day on her own, as she has a second bed which she uses as her day bed, and isn't crated, hwoever at night time she is always locked in her crate for the duration (well she thinks she's locked in when the reality is that she can open the door as we just shut it).
> 
> Even now, as Holly is almost 8 months, she is only left for a maximum of 2 hours on her own, and she gets a kong stuffed with frozen raw food. At 9 weeks old Holly wasn't left alone for more than 10 mins at a time, apart from in the car if we went food shopping.


That is very nice for you but most people do need to go out without their dogs and if they can be left for 2 hours they can be left for longer.
I dont like having just one dog, it is much easier if they have company, but I left Candy crated for about 2 hours every day from the day I got her and then started leaving her for longer loose with the other dog. Now I only have Candy I am running into a bit of a problem but she has to learn and has been left for a few hours.


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## Michelle666 (Jun 12, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> I think some breeds can accept and cope with being left alone all day, as some are downright lazy and laidback.


I have to agree with this. I have a DDB and she is the most laziest dog I have ever known... she doesn't do early mornings and doesn't stay up late either. She's just turned one, and I'm sure she acts like an old lady!

We leave her for the day and she copes really well. Infact last week she managed to alert the neighbours by growling and barking that someone was trying to nick my OH's motorbike from the garden. Barking isn't her thing either, so neighbours instantly knew something was up.

I think it depends on the breed...Sadie will spend all of Sunday upside down, legs in the air, snoring on the sofa...you try and take her for walk - no chance!!!


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

vivienne said:


> Why do you think rescues won't home to people out all day.


Oh but they do.

I have two rescue dogs from two different rescues organisations and I am at work all day five days a week.

I go out at 05:00 until about 07:00 and then from 18:00 onwards.

I also got a pup while I was working all day five days a week too and had no real issues with house training.

Sure I have teeth marks on the dining room furniture and a few cushions have been disembowled but other than that they are all used to the routine, pretty well trained, well socialised and happy happy dogs with no anxiety issues despite the mess they came in as. I mix up the exercise so we could be walking one day, running the next, rollerblading, swimming in the summer or just dossing about.

Only recently has a neighbour offered to take them out in exchange for beer as he has recently been made redundant but until then they were on their own.

It can be done if you want to make it work you just need to use your imagination a bit and make the time you spend with them the absolute top quality time you can. Just because you are around your dogs all day doesn't mean they will be better dogs or you are providing the stimulation they desire. Just because you pop in on your lunch hour doesn't mean they will be better trained. Do you walk your dogs at the same place more than four times a week? Do you always walk with your dog or do you try and move at the pace they want to move at? How often does their environment go from streets one day to endless forest the next? From lead walk training one day through a braodleaf woodland with numerous exciting distractions to running free across moorland chasing toys and you the next?

Of course it can be done and it can be done well with the exact same results as with a dog that has it's owner around it 24/7, in some cases even better.

If anyone thinks it can't be done with a GSD/rottie cross then I beg to differ. I've managed with breeds who are a lot more wired and energetic than that adn still get complimneted on my dog's behaviours.

What a load of pish.

OP: You are not being cruel you are just doing things differently. Any dog that isn;t being interacted with will more than likely fall asleep anyway.


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## yorkiegal (May 30, 2010)

I've wanted a dog my entire adult life after growing up with them in the household. But I waited 20 years until I wasn't working full time and could be a good and responsible owner. OP sell your pup to someone who can look after it properly and get yourself a cat who can pop in and out. It's just not fair on a dog to be left alone all day even if it is just once or twice per week.

It's a privelege to share your life with a dog. They shouldn't just be there as something to amuse you and keep you company when you have free time.


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## miti999 (Mar 19, 2009)

I have to disagree with Hutch6's comments.

I can't see that ANY puppy will like to be left for longer than at the very most, two hours, while still a young puppy obviously.

My belief is that you can't have dogs and leave them to their own devices all day long, every day. But I accept that adult dogs can be left for a period of time.

Cats yes! A whole different ballgame. But even cats like to see their owners and a scratch and tickle around their ears once a day!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

The simple fact is, it's cruel.

A puppy of 9 weeks should be on FOUR meals a day - pray tell me all those who happily left their pups for 8 hours a day have managed this - doubling up on their meals can damage the pups tummy


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## hammers24 (Jun 8, 2010)

thanks for all your advise people it has really been a great help


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## stephwiggy (Nov 23, 2009)

oh my ... i cannot imagion leaving any dog for that long - let alone a pup .. this is my opinion but Kiki is 12 weeks old and - i left her for 30 minutes the other day and i was worried sick (un-aviodable as was docs appt).. i would try an get some one at least to check on pup even if the are only there a short time .. all the best


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## yorkiegal (May 30, 2010)

I had to leave baxter for three hours unavoidably due to a hospital appt which ran late. Everytime I leave him he immediately kicks over his water and food bowl so imagine that with a puppy being left for 8 hrs.


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## Matrix/Logan (May 7, 2009)

Blade is left for 3 hours either side of my lunch break then we are all home from 3.30pm onwards. He is left in his crate during these 3 hour sessions.

I have to say i wouldn't leave a pup his age alone for more than that, especially in a room, however puppy proof you think it is they can always injure themselves! I would seriously find an animal loving neighbour who would come in and let her out and feed her her lunch at the most! 

Having always owned gsd's i think if left for that long she will become anxious and destructive, they need to be stimulated. Blade is now 10 weeks old and becoming more playful for longer spells between sleeps, he has a good half hour romp with the other 2 at lunchtime and gets fed, goes to the toilet then is ready to settle for the afternoon. Not sure how a pup with no playtime pal or company all day will cope through the?? 

I hope you manage to get someone sorted over the weekend and all goes well for you going back to work next week. X X


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

To subject a small puppy to 8 hours (does that include travelling time?) solitary confinement, whether crated or not is cruelty whether intentional or not.  Why oh why are people doing this? At one time, most people who worked full time delayed having a dog until one or both could be part time. Now, people want it all, regardless of how fair it is on the dog. Look in the shelters at how many dogs are in them because of seperation anxiety related problems and you will see what I am getting at.


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## yorkiegal (May 30, 2010)

agree completely caroline. You've only got to do a search on the net for dogs for sale to see how many 12month or round abouts dogs are up for resale because the owners didn't think it through, and they're usually badly trained dogs suffering from seperation anxiety.


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## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

All i can say is.
You prbs shouldn't have got the dog.
And I know of a dog left alone outside all day (come rain or snow) through puppyhood. 

My grandparents always have to go and complain cuz it NEER stops barking, it seems bored, and destructive. and it'sfat.

Not a good idea. can't you send it to some kind of kennels/training centre whilst you make arrangements?


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

yorkiegal said:


> agree completely caroline. You've only got to do a search on the net for dogs for sale to see how many 12month or round abouts dogs are up for resale because the owners didn't think it through, and they're usually badly trained dogs suffering from seperation anxiety.


Absolutely. It is about time people opened their eyes and got with the programme! Dogs are suffering more and more nowadays from seperation anxiety and why? Ok so there are always the dogs who can cope and who are possibly happy to be left alone. They get into a routine and their owners spend quality time with them when they get home instead of sitting in front of the tv for the night. They also ensure that someone is going to relieve the dogs solitude for a while at least once during the day.  But others go and get a pup, take a week or two off work to 'settle it in' thus giving pup loads of attention etc and then what do they do? Go back to full time work without having made arrangements for someone to help out!  Poor pup, wrenched from the first home it knew, its breeder, gets a week or two of fun and company and then all of a sudden is expected to cope with sillent, lonely solitude for between 8 - 10 hours (depending on how fast an owner can get home after an 8 hour shift) and is expected during that time to be quiet, not chew and of course to housetrain itself!:confused1:

Then they get rid because 'it's not fair on the dog' a few months down the line after screwing it up and failing to be there for it.

Give me strength!


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## corrine3 (Feb 22, 2009)

All I want to say is please please try your hardest to get someone in to spend a bit of time with your pup. At nine weeks they are babies and need lots of interaction and attention, they've probably not even settled in properly yet. Have you already tried leaving him in his own starting with short amount of time to longer? Otherwise you'll have seperation anxiety on your hands next. When we got Glen we both took time off work and were at home for 3/4 weeks with him before he was left. When we went back to work our dog walker came twice a day for 2 half hours so he was never left for more than 3hours. I'm a teacher so also dont work long hours and have the holidays. I think for your own sanity as you will worry sick about your pup, you need someone to look in on pup while your at work.

just wanted to say it does cost us £120 a month for a dog walker but it's worth every penny knowing he's not left for 8 hours with no interaction or walk. We do now have a 2nd dog and will gradually be leaving them together for company so wont have the cost of a walker. It's really just for the first few months you need someone to look in while they are toilet training and going through vital development stages.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> To subject a small puppy to 8 hours (does that include travelling time?) solitary confinement, whether crated or not is cruelty whether intentional or not.  Why oh why are people doing this? At one time, most people who worked full time delayed having a dog until one or both could be part time. Now, people want it all, regardless of how fair it is on the dog. Look in the shelters at how many dogs are in them because of seperation anxiety related problems and you will see what I am getting at.





yorkiegal said:


> agree completely caroline. You've only got to do a search on the net for dogs for sale to see how many 12month or round abouts dogs are up for resale because the owners didn't think it through, and they're usually badly trained dogs suffering from seperation anxiety.


Both of my rescues came from homes where they were around people all of the time. The almost opposite pole of their routine now.

One was never taken out. The other was teased by the kids until she growled and then beaten, then when she growled again she was beaten and taken to be PTS.

If my voice went above a medium to loud level, even when calling the other dogs, she would run and hide. The othe rone barked and carried on at everything and anything that moved.

Now they are two completley different dogs and yet I can hold down a steady job that provides for us to go to various places to enjoy our time together, they enjoy a varied diet which differs every day, they have clean beds to lie in, a nice dry house, they can make a mess of toys and I don't get angry as I replace them (frisbees can take a hammering but when they split they need replacing).

My dogs get out for a minimum of three hours per day doing training, playing games, off leash free running exploring wonderfully smelling and interesting places, they never get hit or beaten or locked in all day as they have done before, they are allowed to express their born abilities and they are iuncluded in everything I do because my lifestyle is perfect for dogs. I work to live and I ensure I work my dogs and work on them everyday.

Now please explain the cruelty of my lifestyle towards my dogs bearing in mind I never fabricated anything when asked questions by the rescues and they could've refused to rehome the dogs to me yet they were keen and excited with what I could provide the dogs and I have never broken my promise to the dogs and never will, unlike the previous owners.

So from the above quotes, not only haven't I ever placed a dog in a rehoming or rescue centre, I have taken two out permanently and one I gave a foster home to and held on to it past the agreed time until a forever home could be found.

I don't give up on what I have committed to and rethink my approach if things aren't working. This is why I say IT CAN BE DONE as I have done it and am still continuing owning a pack of dogs whilst working full time, not just one.

Oh yeah, I've got a cat and a load of gold fish too.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> Absolutely. It is about time people opened their eyes and got with the programme! Dogs are suffering more and more nowadays from seperation anxiety and why? Ok so there are always the dogs who can cope and who are possibly happy to be left alone. They get into a routine and their owners spend quality time with them when they get home instead of sitting in front of the tv for the night. They also ensure that someone is going to relieve the dogs solitude for a while at least once during the day.  But others go and get a pup, take a week or two off work to 'settle it in' thus giving pup loads of attention etc and then what do they do? Go back to full time work without having made arrangements for someone to help out!  Poor pup, wrenched from the first home it knew, its breeder, gets a week or two of fun and company and then all of a sudden is expected to cope with sillent, lonely solitude for between 8 - 10 hours (depending on how fast an owner can get home after an 8 hour shift) and is expected during that time to be quiet, not chew and of course to housetrain itself!:confused1:
> 
> Then they get rid because 'it's not fair on the dog' a few months down the line after screwing it up and failing to be there for it.
> 
> Give me strength!


What about the dogs that are never seperated fom their owners since they bought them but then the owner has to go back to work after a year or so and then the dog kicks off big time because it was never exposed to the stress of being on its own as a pup?

So only the people who do not work are deemed as ideal dog owners? Good job there is a resession on then as there are now loads of homes out there for dogs. The rescue centres should be empty yet they are filling up more and more because people can't afford to keep their dogs.

There are loads of reasons why people have to give up their dogs and yet such accusations are made without knowing what the full details and circumstances are.

Isn't it a coincidence that dog training classes are mainly run on a weekend or evening? Why is this if a "responsible" or "non-cruel" dog owner is at home during the day more than they are out earning?


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

hutch6 said:


> What about the dogs that are never seperated fom their owners since they bought them but then the owner has to go back to work after a year or so and then the dog kicks off big time because it was never exposed to the stress of being on its own as a pup?
> 
> So only the people who do not work are deemed as ideal dog owners?


Never leaving your dogs is as bad as leaving them too long - both are not right - but there is a balance.

Of course full-time workers can have dogs, I did - one, then two, I still work full time now, but from home 95% of the time, the remainder of the time, my partner is here or works a short day and comes home at lunchtime.

The point is - the owners think through how they are going to deal with it BEFORE they get the pup, not when they are just about to go back to work.

I've said before, when my pups are young, I treat them as if I was working away from home to ensure they get used to being left - I didn't do it with one girl, and I did have quite bad separation anxiety problems with her - which raises the next point.

2 hours before the OP started this thread, they posted that they believed their pup was suffering from separation anxiety - so now poor pup is going to switch from having someone with them all the time, to being alone for 8 hours - it's simply unacceptable - and if the pup has separation anxiety after a short period - in a longer period, particularly if uncrated, it could lead to a demolished house.

If you have well adjusted older dogs and your circumstances change, you would still surely look for someone to call in on them once or twice a day, so for a pup it should be so much more than this - and it's really not fair on the dog 

===============

Some responsible breeders do have a rule that they will not sell to full-time workers, and as they've put the time and effort in, that's their right to make that decision.

I try to be a realist and recognise that people do have to work, but I also like to know that they've thought the process through and recognise that they may have to adhere to that for the next 12 years or so.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Ok so there are always the dogs who can cope and who are possibly happy to be left alone. They get into a routine and their owners spend quality time with them when they get home instead of sitting in front of the tv for the night. They also ensure that someone is going to relieve the dogs solitude for a while at least once during the day.


Just reiterating what I said about those owners for whom full time work and dog ownership are working nicely. 



hutch6 said:


> Isn't it a coincidence that dog training classes are mainly run on a weekend or evening? Why is this if a "responsible" or "non-cruel" dog owner is at home during the day more than they are out earning?


Try setting up a daytime class mid week and see how many you get coming. 



swarthy said:


> The point is - the owners think through how they are going to deal with it BEFORE they get the pup, not when they are just about to go back to work.


Precisely. It's something a lot of people are doing now and it is time people stopped and thought a bit more before putting a pup through this.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

swarthy said:


> Never leaving your dogs is as bad as leaving them too long - both are not right - but there is a balance.
> 
> The point is - the owners think through how they are going to deal with it BEFORE they get the pup, not when they are just about to go back to work.
> 
> ...


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> To subject a small puppy to 8 hours (does that include travelling time?) solitary confinement, whether crated or not is cruelty whether intentional or not. Why oh why are people doing this? At one time, most people who worked full time delayed having a dog until one or both could be part time. Now, people want it all, regardless of how fair it is on the dog. Look in the shelters at how many dogs are in them because of seperation anxiety related problems and you will see what I am getting at.


I completely agree.

Leaving a 9 week old puppy for 8 hours is not only cruel, but IMO constitutes neglect. As Swarthy says, they should be on 4 meals a day - so will not even be fed properly, much less have an opportunity to be house trained.

Why oh why do people put their own desires for a dog/puppy before the needs of the dog/puppy.


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## lozb (May 31, 2010)

It's been really interesting to read the responses to this thread 

My puppy came to our home at 6 months old - I had no idea if or how long he'd ever been left alone.

I work 30 hours a week but I'm very fortunate in that we can walk my daughter to school each morning (about 30 mins in total) and 3 days a week walk to pick her up. On the 2 days I work longer hours I'm lucky enough to be able to come home and spend an hour with Baxter - a good half hour walk and half hour so he can eat and we can play.

Since he's been with us - the time he's alone, he's great... he doesn't chew or bark (as far as I know). 

Though - the first 2 weeks I had BIG concerns because when I left him for, about 3 hours in the morning (on my long days in work) he wouldn't eat or drink and didn't find the treats I'd hidden in the kitchen, where he stays. I thought he was getting 'depressed' being on his own  

Now - he's fine during the 3-4 hours he's alone - he'll find his treats, drink, eat and be excited but not over-come when I greet him.

I think you have to find the 'happy medium' if you do have to work longer hours. Either make the time to come home and spend quality time with your dog or enrole someone to do that for you. Anyone/dog would get bored on their own for a long period of time and you wouldn't put a child through that boredom so why expect a dog to do the same?

I'm glad that we've found the happy medium for our family - kids and dog and cats included and I hope the OP can find the same


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

hutch6 said:


> Seems to me that it is *not the time spent away from the dog *but the *time spent with the dog *that causes the issues - my orginal point.


If you think it is acceptable to leave such a young puppy for 8 hours, then YOU are missing the point.

It isn't healthy to be with a dog 24/7 - they do need to become accustomed to time on their own - otherwise, that is also a recipe for disaster, and can lead to serious separation anxiety.

There is nothing wrong with having a well thought out implementable plan for managing a puppy if you work full time, but unless you are REALLY lucky, this will cost money, and is a huge commitment, which, dependent on the breed could last an average of 8 to 16 years.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Right let's say I am missing the point then.

Can someone explain to me then how so many puppies get brought up with so many people working? Is there a massive booming business out there for puppy minders that I can get in on? If people who work full-time should get an older dog where does that older dog grow up from a being a pup? 

If you do opt for an older dog then it is a rescue dog. This means that it is used to company be it working staff, other dogs in the kennel or a former owner who is no longer able to look after the dog for any number of reasons. Now the dog is rehomed to a full-time worker so it goes from having something to interact with to being left for 8hrs a day, in an environment it doesn't know which is all very scary but you don't know half the time if the dog has ever spent time alone as a pup and can deal with it.

The rescues who I rehomed dogs from knew that the lifestyle I lead would provide a quality of life that far far far outweighed the time I wasn't there. 

It could be the other way round whereby the owner is there the vast majority of the time but doesn;t interact witht he dog and the dog gets the same walk every single day of it's life due to the physical abilities of the owner. That to me seems a bit cruel as the dog doesn't get to experience a great deal despite the owner being there. A classic example of this is there is a an old guy I see walking to the shops every weekday morning asd I am returning from my walks and he shuffles along the pavement at a snails creep. His dog moves at the same pace as him, ears back, head down, tail between it's legs and looks the canine spitting image of him. I got talking to him one morning and it turns out his Border Collie is 5 and is the best dog he's ever owned. FIVE!!! The difference between my two and his was imeasurable yet he is home all day.

What one person does and makes it work can not be wrong if it works and they are willing to make it work which the OP is obviously trying to do by asking questions on here. To call it all cruel and neglectful is a bit harsh in my mind and I would rather say it could work but it will be hard work like it was for me but as long as you are comitted and follow through with what you set out to do then you have already proved you are worthy of being called a dog owner.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Hutch6

Can you explain how a 9 week old puppy left for 8 hours during the day (bearing in mind they will also be left for around 8 hours during the night too when the owners are asleep) is meant to be housetrained. Who is going to feed them.

The reality is that this is the very reason why so many dogs end up in rescue, because for every dog that does adapt and manage to get by in a less than ideal situation there will be those that end up in rescue.

I completely agree with CarolineH, there was a time when people put the needs of a dog before their own and would only take on a dog when their personal situation meant the dog wouldn't be left alone for long periods. Now people put their own selfish desires of owning a dog before the needs of a dog. 

There are ways around it and at times I have had to rely on them - dog walkers, dog sitters, family, friends, neighbours etc, to help, but leaving a 9 week old pup on it's own all day is not right and not responsible dog ownership.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

hutch6 said:


> To call it all cruel and neglectful is a bit harsh in my mind and I would rather say it could work but it will be hard work like it was for me but as long as you are comitted and follow through with what you set out to do then you have already proved you are worthy of being called a dog owner.


we are talking about a NINE week old puppy - it needs FOUR meals spread evenly throughout the day - it needs regular visits to the garden - it needs socialisation. We are also coming to the height of summer, which everything points to being a hot one - what happens if puppy drinks all it's water - it's going to pee everywhere, and them have to go without for the remaining 'x' hours. What happens if the puppy is one of these that spills it's water bowl the minute it is left (a common symptom with SA) - that puppy will then go without water for the best part of 8 hours.

Please tell me how a dog left alone for 8 hours can get these meals, how does it get it's toilet visits - how does the owner ensure it has a constant supply of fresh water - and if they can - how will the pup manage to contain themselves for 8 hours - you wouldn't expect a baby to last 8 hours.

Remember, a lot of people sleep for 7/8 hours - so in total, that's 15 hours a day that pup will be on it's own - with no human contact, no regular meal schedule to meet it's age and no guidance on toilet training - that to me borders on cruelty.

Yes, the OP has asked for advice, but they should have done this before they got the pup.

I have *NEVER EVER* said dogs shouldn't be left alone, and I've never said that full time workers shouldn't own dogs.

I've been a full-time, away from the home worker with one, and then two dogs - I also leave my dogs alone from time to time, and raise them to a certain age as if I was working away from the home.

When I took on my first dog, I recognised that I had a commitment to that dog that made sure it had the opportunity to be raised properly in terms of meals, housetraining and socialisation and knew that that commitment didn't end in 6 weeks or 12 weeks time, but lasted for the next 12 years or so.

===============

I have to say, IMO the breeder also comes in for some criticism that they haven't explored the owners lifestyle a bit more, either that, or they did and the OP lied. I always explore a prospective owners lifestyle, if they work full-time, I probe how they will manage - yes, they may be lying, but you can quite quickly weed out those that have clearly not thought about it, and those that have and are willing to accept some disruption to their lives in order to accommodate what is, after all, a living animal.

The OP has also posted on a separate thread that this puppy seems to have separation anxiety issues now, and I can't understand why people can't comprehend that leaving it for 8 hours a day is going to make it worse not better, posing a risk, not only to the owners home, but also to their pups health and well being.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

swarthy said:


> we are talking about a NINE week old puppy - it needs FOUR meals spread evenly throughout the day - it needs regular visits to the garden - it needs socialisation. We are also coming to the height of summer, which everything points to being a hot one - what happens if puppy drinks all it's water - it's going to pee everywhere, and them have to go without for the remaining 'x' hours. What happens if the puppy is one of these that spills it's water bowl the minute it is left (a common symptom with SA) - that puppy will then go without water for the best part of 8 hours.
> 
> Please tell me how a dog left alone for 8 hours can get these meals, how does it get it's toilet visits - how does the owner ensure it has a constant supply of fresh water - and if they can - how will the pup manage to contain themselves for 8 hours - you wouldn't expect a baby to last 8 hours.





> I have *NEVER EVER* said dogs shouldn't be left alone, and I've never said that full time workers shouldn't own dogs.


When I wrote my posts swarthy, I was well aware that someone would take umbrage.  I was right. 

The thing is, I have worked with and around dogs for the best part of the last 20 years doing classes, private behaviourals, working as dog warden and in rescue shelters etc. Sadly health won't let me now but I still maintain a strong interest. That's probably why I am such a cynic anyway and why I will say it how I see it regardless. I do not wish to offend people but if they choose to take it that way then so be it.  I have seen and dealt with the less responsible side of dog ownership and seen the problems that it causes. 

So I stand by what I have said. No way should someone get a small pup and leave it home alone at that age, least of all for that duration of time!:confused1:


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> When I wrote my posts swarthy, I was well aware that someone would take umbrage.  I was right.


I haven't - I am in total agreement


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

swarthy said:


> I haven't - I am in total agreement


I could see that.


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## vivienne (Jun 2, 2010)

"Can someone explain to me then how so many puppies get brought up with so many people working? "

Because people are selfish and think of what they want not what is best for the puppy.
The pup will of course usually make it to adulthood but that does not make it a good way to rear a dog.
There may be circumstances when someone or a couple work "fulltime" and are able with sufficient commitment manage something but these are the exceptions rather than the rule.
For an average person working 9-5 meaning they are out the house from around 8-6 (thats actually 10 hours away) what time is left for the dog?
Obviously people have other things to do like eating, etc so when is this quality time for the dog, especially in winter.
It will dark before 6pm so when does the dog get any decent exercise (not just a quick walk in the cold and dark)?
I still say what a miserable life for any dog Of course some dogs just sleep the time away - what else is there to do. My dog sleeps when I go out but that does not make her a lazy dog she is just the opposite always on the go when I am at home. Fancy having to sleep around 18 hours a day, every day.
What's in it for the dog - not much as far as I can see.


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## wooliewoo (May 27, 2008)

Wonder if the breeder of pup knew that the pup would be left all day alone??? 

Apart from the feeding and toileting issues along with socialising theres the safety aspect too. I know pups are into everything, chewing climbing etc (yes i found charli sat on top of the tumble dryer) so those points will have to be looked at.

I would be trying to get someone to pop in during the day to check pup and break the boredom up


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## Montys_Mum (Jun 4, 2010)

Firstly I think that some peoples' comments on here are getting a bit nasty and personal and I for one do not think that is called for. The poster shouldn't have to give up his puppy! Also, a point to think about, if only people who stayed at home all day had the puppies/dogs wouldn't that mean a hell of a lot more in rescue centres or living on the streets....anyway....

Not everyone will agree with how other's raise their puppies/dogs, we all have different opinions.

The most important thing here, and I think everyone will agree with this, is ROUTINE!

I won't go on about how we set things up as I have already detailed that. However I will say that we did research before getting a puppy into how it's best to leave them during the working day. We bought the equipment (puppy playpen to start with, kong, chews, a radio, puppy paper pads etc) we'd need all prior to getting Monty so we had time to get him used to it all before we started leaving him on his own for long periods. We also puppy proofed the kitchen, which involved us doing a lot of furniture moving (alot of work but worth it)!

We worked out a routine that would work well for us and for Monty and we stick to it. He is used to getting up, toileted, fed etc at the same times everyday, and I return home from work at about the same time everyday (give or take an hour or so). Monty doesn't whine or bark when we leave him. He is well socialised (we made sure of that during his early months) and he is taken in a car every week so travels well, he visits lots of fun places on the weekends and his evening walks are varied (we have parks, woods, rivers etc all within short walking distance).

He isn't abused or mistreated. He is a happy chap with a lovely soft glossy coat and bright eyes. We get lots of comments about that from the vet, our neighbours, family and other dog walkers and strangers, so that isn't just coming from me.

So to reiterate the point I wanted to make lol ROUTINE ROUTINE ROUTINE! That is key, change the routine too often and then you'll have an unhappy puppy/dog, whether you are home regularly or not.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Montys_Mum said:


> So to reiterate the point I wanted to make lol ROUTINE ROUTINE ROUTINE! That is key, change the routine too often and then you'll have an unhappy puppy/dog, whether you are home regularly or not.


 someone really should tell my 6 dogs (aged from 8 months to 7.5 years) that because they haven't got quite the fact that because their routine varies every day that they should be miserable. Too much routine can be bad for a dog, because if you have to change that routine, all to often you encounter behavioural problems.

Fortunately for you, SOME dogs adapt to whatever you throw at them - other's don't - the point is - if you leave a puppy for 8 hours a day - you cannot feed it regularly as is required for a 9 week old puppy, you cannot monitor their wellbeing and safety and it at best borders on cruelty.

Everyone has a a set period they will be away from home - but sometimes you can get held up in traffic, get caught up at work, need to do something on the way / way home from work, and that 8 hours quickly runs into 9 or 10 hours PLUS the the 7/8 hours a large number of people sleep - that's over 2 thirds of the day the dog is on it's own.

It's cruel.

ETA - your dog is still a puppy from your signature? hasn't hit adolescence yet - and if your avatar is your pup - I pray for your sake it goes smoothly (or maybe I don't if it is left 8 hours every day) - because boy can those dogs howl.

=================

Having just seen yet another thread - this dog is a GSD X rottie who already has apparent SA issues - OP please please please think HARD about what you are doing.

I am NOT trying to be nasty - as every seems to think - those that think it's OK to leave any dog, and particularly one of this mix alone all day is storing up serious problems for themselves 

My one passion in life from apparently when I was still in a push-chair to now has been dogs - I worked with them, owned them - my entire life revolved around them - but for 20 years I was dogless - because my lifestyle simply did not suit a dog.

YES - I worked full-time when we had one, and then 2, but a lot of the time I worked from home, we lived next door to my teenage daughter's school and my father was a mile up the road and called in about two to three times a day EVERY day.

I waited until the time was right for the pup - not when the time was right for me - something a lot of people should think about - nobody died from not owning a dog, but a lot of dogs have ultimately died as a result of decisions owners have made on their behalf, whether that be through injury or utimately PTS because they can no longer handle them, or they end up in long term rescue where no-one wants them, or they get to a stage where they cannot be rehomed.

If you want an independent animal, get a cat or a goldfish, or live some of your life without an animal, it won't kill you, and it will make that time when you eventually are in a position to own one - all that much more special.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> The poster shouldn't have to give up his puppy!


So you think it is perfectly acceptable to leave a 9 week old puppy for 8 hours a day.

There are ways around it, but the OP has said they cannot afford or unable to get someone in during the day. Sorry, but that is neglect. This is also a breed (or cross breed) that will need plenty of socialisation (and ideally an experienced owner). The OP may be lucky, but the odds of having a dog of that breeding, with a lack of socialisation and being left to it's own devices for so long does does not bode well.

People aren't being negative for the sake of it. What we say is not based on one person's single experience that they have had with their own dog, but on the end results of so many cases like these.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

My pup gets left for a max of 4/5 hours a day. He's 12 weeks old.

He was settling down niceley, until we went away and then had to get someone to look after him for 2 weeks and the weekend just gone.

Now he's kicking off again.

Hopefully it will settle back down.


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## dukey1234 (Jun 9, 2010)

i agree its not ideal to be leaving the puppy 8 hours a day on its own and yes it will take longer to train him/her but that doesnt mean you cant provide a loving home that is good for the dog. I have just got a 10 wek old staffy pup who is adorable, he is my 3rd staffy all of which were left alone while i was working. luckily me and my partner work staggered times so i leave the house around 11.30 am and my partner is home around 5.30 pm so its not quite as long as most people, chalkie wines when we leave him for about 2 to 3 mins as ive checked this a number of times then plays with all his toys he has and is fine, we spend lots of quality time with him on an evening and i do on a morning as well before work, he i responding well to training, in 3 days he responds everytime when i throw his rope toy to fetch, he sits when told most of the time and knows when i say no when he is puppy nipping.

I agree with previous coments to an extent but to advise people to rehome thier pups is wrong. The puppy will still get lots of love and attention


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## Montys_Mum (Jun 4, 2010)

That's what I mean, no need to be so personal and nasty!

What I said was it's fine the leave a puppy yes. So long as you have got the appropriate safe environment and stick to a routine so pup knows when you come home etc. That's what I meant by routine!

On the weekend of course things change, although his night-time and early morning routine remains the same.

I have been advised and read that routine is important when leaving a puppy or dog at home while working. And this is what we stick too. (By routine I mean leaving and returning times etc)

We vary his toys/chews etc to keep things interesting.

He doesn't destroy anything and doesn't howl during the day (as I said earlier our neighbour works nights so home during the day and has often told me how good and quiet Monty is).

So I think we need to agree to disagree, because this is all getting far too nasty for my liking.


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## vivienne (Jun 2, 2010)

I cannot see that the thread is getting nasty. People are going to have strong views on issues that concern dog welfare. 
I have not read anything here that makes me think leaving a dog from 8-6 is anything but unacceptable.
All I read is I do it so it cannot be wrong - well sorry I do not agree. ( I know the people posting are not actually out at work 8-6 but most people are). The major animal welfare/rescue societies and most smaller ones do not home puppys to fulltime workers. Are you saying they are all wrong? 
As far as I am concerned this is the downside of forums.
Animal welfare charities can spend a lot of time , money and effort trying to educate people on how best to keep pets and it can be undone so easliy by a few people with opposing views.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I cannot see that the thread is getting nasty. People are going to have strong views on issues that concern dog welfare.
> I have not read anything here that makes me think leaving a dog from 8-6 is anything but unacceptable.
> All I read is I do it so it cannot be wrong - well sorry I do not agree. ( I know the people posting are not actually out at work 8-6 but most people are). The major animal welfare/rescue societies and most smaller ones do not home puppys to fulltime workers. Are you saying they are all wrong?
> As far as I am concerned this is the downside of forums.
> Animal welfare charities can spend a lot of time , money and effort trying to educate people on how best to keep pets and it can be undone so easliy by a few people with opposing views.


Excellent post.

Montysmum - I'm sorry if you feel I was I was being nasty and personal, it was certainly not my intention, and, honestly, cannot see how I was, I was simply responding to your post (and others who think it is ok to leave a puppy or dog for 8 hours).

As vivienne says, there are reasons rescues do not rehome to people who work full time. I can tell you that in my years in breed rescue the majority of dogs coming into rescue were because they couldn't cope with being left all day while their owners worked. These are adult dogs, but in addition, the needs of a young puppy are even greater.

I'm glad everything is going well for you and your puppy, but this is your first dog and hopefully things will continue to go well, but I talk from the experience of helping to rehome many dogs who are a result of being brought up in this way and the wide experience of many others with similar experiences.


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## Montys_Mum (Jun 4, 2010)

Telling people they are being neglectful, saying they will have problems (which we haven't experienced, so that is a generalisation!) etc Having a go blanketly saying those of us that work are all wrong and we are clearly uncaring horrible people (this is very much implied). That is nasty, that is hurtful.

Not all of us can afford to stay at home (good for you if you can). Some of us actually have to work for a living and do our best to take care of our animals.

But what you are saying is that anyone who works shouldn't have pets....well okay, where would you home all those animals then? Because you'd have tonnes more problems then.

This is getting too horrible, so I'll say no more. As I said - agree to disagree and I wish people would stop being all holier than thou!

Edit - thank you rocco, I do see your point. Maybe we are lucky, but I also put it down to our research and planning that we put in place. All I had been trying to say was that it is doable if handled appropriately. I didn't expect to be called neglectful and cruel!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Telling people they are being neglectful, saying they will have problems (which we haven't experienced, so that is a generalisation!) etc Having a go blanketly saying those of us that work are all wrong and we are clearly uncaring horrible people (this is very much implied). That is nasty, that is hurtful.


I have never said that anyone working is wrong - I work! I have to, but I make sure arrangements are in place. My dogs are now adults so can be left for longer periods, but when my next puppy comes along even more arrangements will be put into place.



> I didn't expect to be called neglectful and cruel!


I'm sorry, I'm not aware that anyone has called you neglectful and cruel, but leaving a 9 week old puppy for 8 hours is neglect - they need to be fed small meals frequently for a start - that is not meant to be nasty, it is simply fact. Yes, it may be possible to keep this puppy with the right arrangements but the OP says they cannot do this.


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## Montys_Mum (Jun 4, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> I'm sorry, I'm not aware that anyone has called you neglectful and cruel, but leaving a 9 week old puppy for 8 hours is neglect - they need to be fed small meals frequently for a start - that is not meant to be nasty, it is simply fact. Yes, it may be possible to keep this puppy with the right arrangements but the OP says they cannot do this.


You might not have used those words (well you used neglect just then), but others have. I found it very hurtful.

Feeding - well we worked around this. But I won't go into how as I am sure someone will have a go  (lol)


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

I dont think having a an adult dog and working full time is wrong (i did it for years - i just made sure i worked locally and was fortunate enough to have a relative who looked after my boys every afternoon. They most they were left was 9am until 1pm. If this hadnt been possible, i wouldnt have had dogs) per se, but i dont think its irresponsible, and yes a little cruel, to do this to a puppy.

Im currently off work due to ill health, so spend 24/7 with my dogs. Even at 10 and 11 they require attention and stimulation during the day. Its fairly obvious when they are bored, and will only really keep quiet for a few hours at a time. 
They have each other to interact with, and spend a lot of time wrestling and generally annoying each other.

But what is a singleton supposed to do for 8 odd hours at a time? A filled kong only last so long; toys are no fun if there's no one to interact and play with.

If a dog is bored, it will find ways to entertain itself. Often through chewing things it shouldnt, or barking for hours on end. Not to mention the issues with soiling the house due to not being sufficently toilet trained. So many dogs are rehomed/given up for these reasons.

Im not saying it cant be done, but ample research *must* be done before the dog is purchased, and measures taken to provide for the puppies basic needs.

If i were to ever get another dog and were working full time, i most certainly wouldnt be getting a puppy. I just dont think its fair.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

vivienne said:


> For an average person working 9-5 meaning they are out the house from around 8-6 (thats actually 10 hours away) what time is left for the dog?
> Obviously people have other things to do like eating, etc so when is this quality time for the dog, especially in winter.
> It will dark before 6pm so when does the dog get any decent exercise (not just a quick walk in the cold and dark)?
> I still say what a miserable life for any dog Of course some dogs just sleep the time away - what else is there to do. My dog sleeps when I go out but that does not make her a lazy dog she is just the opposite always on the go when I am at home. Fancy having to sleep around 18 hours a day, every day.
> What's in it for the dog - not much as far as I can see.


I am one of those people you are referring to but you have absolutely no idea how I live my life or what I do with my sparetime so let me give a pretty detailed breakdown of where what I believe is quality time for the dogs comes in but I will let you be the judge of it.

05:00 Alarm goes off.
05:15 I am changed, the leads are on and we are heading for the door.
05:20 We are out on the moors or down in the woods. The dogs are off lead and they are working for frisbees, balls and generally running around.
07:00 we are heading for home.
07:05 We arrive home and the kettle is put on while I wash the food bowls and refresh the water.
07:15 the food is prepared for dogs and cat and I am enjoying a coffee in the back garden with the dogs as they sniff about, play fight, follow a few simple commands for little treats.
07:30 The food is placed down as they sit and wait to be able to eat. As soon as the bowls are down I go get ready for work so they can eat in peace.
07:50 I come downstairs, lift the food bowls up, refresh the water and pack my lunch up.
07:55 I leave for my train leaving the patio door open so they can go in the back garden if they so wish. They have treat balls, kongs, chew toys, the TV on low and they mainly sleep (I watched them on a web cam for a while when I was at work to see if they were ok).
|
|
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17:55 I arrive home.
18:05 I am changed into my walking gear, the leads are on and we are heading for the door.

We could go to a variety of places - reservoir, woodland, moors, playing fields, canal, river or just around the streets. The dogs are engaged in games that teach commands along with being able to be dogs and experience what the world has to offer.

20:30 - 21:30 We arrive home.
The dogs are then dried off if they have been swimming or it has been wet weather.

21:30 - 22:00 We all eat.

22:00 - 23:00 We play games, groom and do a bit of fun training.

23:00 we are in bed.

05:00 The alarm goes off again for another day.

This remains the same come rain wind or shine. I am an avid walker so I have more waterproof clothing than I have office clothing. I have a head torch for winter and a woolly hat for when it gets a bit cold.

The weekends are based around activities we can all do together be it packing a lunch for a walk, going out on the bike (I will walk Kes separately when I get back as his hip dys means he can't keep up with the bike or rollerblades), we all enjoy swimming so in summer we will spend days by the river, at the seaside, in and around reservoirs. We go up to my parent's house in the Lake District so we will spend days on mountains, in the forest plantations, near the lakes or on the beach. I go running and they come with me.
If we are not out all day then I will be up at 07:00 and we will be out until 12:00ish. I will then do what I need to do - housework, food shopping (they come with me if I go to the local markets), DIY etc, and we are then out again from 17:00 until anytime up to 21:00.

I can't remember the last time I watched a film or a TV programme all the way through with undivided attention because I usually sat on the floor with the dogs playing around.

Is that an inadequate amount of time or poor quality time for the dogs?

So then we come to - Why do you get dogs?

Easy. As a kid I played out every night during the week until it was way past dark and all day on a weekend. I have not grown out of that but my friends now want to go out drinking or stay in and relax after work or go out for meals, to the cinema and stay indoors when it is raining. I wanted companionship when I was playing out, exploring the countryside, going in search of wildlife, walking around country fairs and just enjoying the outdoors in general. I always wanted a dog but was never allowed one as a kid (used to pester the neighbours to walk their dogs) and when I was in the position to be able to provide for it I weighed up the life it would have when I wasn't there and the life it would have when I was there and I decided to get one. I got a working border collie pup from a farmer in Cumbria. I have been a dog owner for just 2.5years

Then after 18months I took the decision to adopt a rescue so I went searching and found a 9month old border collie who had never been taken out. The woman who bought him as a pup had four kids all day and couldn't cope with the dog when he stopped being a fluffy ball of cuteness. 
The rescue (very well known) let me see him on the day of the visit, did the home check the next day (Sunday) so I spent all day back at the rescue with him, he was castrated on the Monday and I picked him up on the Tuesday - 4days and they knew my working hours and what I did in my spare time.
No socialisation, no formal training, not really housetrained, thought everything was a chew toy, no interst at all in fetch or playign games with toys and quite bad hip dys. It took some time - about 4months - but he is now a gem of a dog and really lets his super personality shine through.

About 3 months ago I saw a dog on a rescue site that was needing a permanent home after been beaten, rarely walked, lacking in training and was due to be PTS until the rescue stepped in. I made enquiries and a home check was arranged two days later (Wednesday)and I passed again no problems, with them knowing the details of work and spare time. They asked me if I could pick her up on the Friday which I did.

So I now have two border collies (2.5 and 18months) and a GSD/Husky mutt (9months). All are house trained, have training ranging from basic obedience to my first BC having a pretty decent "away" and "by" outrun and "look back" - sheepdog commands for fetch toys, and one will be competing in the fun field trials at a country show after being told he fetches better than most spaniels.

I have been late home on the odd occasion where I have to sort out large issues and have left the dogs (pre-mutt) for 14hrs through no fault of my own and not had any accidents in the house.

Have I been selfish?



wooliewoo said:


> Wonder if the breeder of pup knew that the pup would be left all day alone???
> 
> Apart from the feeding and toileting issues along with socialising theres the safety aspect too. I know pups are into everything, chewing climbing etc (yes i found charli sat on top of the tumble dryer) so those points will have to be looked at.
> 
> I would be trying to get someone to pop in during the day to check pup and break the boredom up


The rescues and the farmer knew about my commitments right from the start as stated above.

So for all those lucky people who get to spend the vast majority of their time around their dogs do you engage your dog every waking minute you spend with them? Are you out all day with them? Do they get to express and develop their natural desires and abilities every day all day apart from the 8hrs you sleep? Could you take your dog to any independent dog assessor and be told That is a perfect dog with no issues?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Is that an inadequate amount of time or poor quality time for the dogs?


I don't think you can compare your situation to that of the OP. Your dogs have the company of each other, and most importantly, are adult dogs not a 9 week old puppy. In your situation (and some of my days are similar although not everyday as I have the luxury of working from home several days a week), I break the 8 hours they are left with a dog walker / neighbour coming in .



> Wonder if the breeder of pup knew that the pup would be left all day alone???


Sadly, there are plenty of breeders that don't really care if it means a sale. Obviously no caring breeder would want one of their puppies being left this long, but there are enough who won't care or whose primary concern is getting a sale.


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## vivienne (Jun 2, 2010)

hutch 6 
If you spend that much time with your dog good for you. But please be honest do you really think the average dog owner would get up that early to walk their dog or spend over 2 hours walking the streets in the dark, rain and wind in winter. I don't believe so.
And there is still the long period of time the dogs are left .
I do not work, I am home all day and of course I do not interact with my dog all the time. I am here though and she can come and find me any time she wants. She can ask to go out in the garden when she wants and in summer the door is left open and she can choose if she wants to be in or out. She has some freedom to potter and investigate things.
I know many people have to work, I did for many years and so I did not have a dog. I waited until I was working just a few hours a day and had the opportunity to take my dog with me.
I do think taking an adult rescue dog is slightly different to getting a puppy but even so I think individual circumtances have to be taken into account.
The problem of dogs in rescues is a vicious circle which needs to be broken. 
There are so many in rescues because so many people take them on without enough thought(working fulltime being just one reason).
If less people kept dogs, eventually less would be bred and so less would end up in rescue.
I am in the camp that thinks "To own a pet is a privilege not a right".


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> I don't think you can compare your situation to that of the OP. Your dogs have the company of each other, and most importantly, are adult dogs not a 9 week old puppy. In your situation (and some of my days are similar although not everyday as I have the luxury of working from home several days a week), I break the 8 hours they are left with a dog walker / neighbour coming in .


But my first was a 10week pup, no other dogs in the house and the time I devote to them when I am not working ramains the same year round. I had a wedding at the wekend and I drove there. After the meal I then drove myself and a few other doggie friends back home. Took the dogs out. Drove back to the wedding. Got back from the wedding. Took the dogs out again. IT IS NEVER COMPROMISED. Even if i get called out for wok and have to remote access from home I will ensure I take the odgs out after so they don;t miss out. Sure I get tired but so do the dogs so when they have a snooze, I grab a snooze. Easy.

If you are at home working then you are hardly providing quality time to both dogs and work.



rocco33 said:


> Sadly, there are plenty of breeders that don't really care if it means a sale. Obviously no caring breeder would want one of their puppies being left this long, but there are enough who won't care or whose primary concern is getting a sale.


Flipping heck. You don't know who the breeder was, what they talked to me about, what their past is, what they have done after the sale for me, how often they are in touch and what their set up was. A bit harsh and a bit prejudice don't you think?


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

I think some folks are forgetting this is about leaving a 9 week old puppy, not an adult dog.

TBH I think anyone thinking it's OK to leave any puppy unattended that long really shouldn't have a puppy. If you work those kind of hours you should be homing an older dog. I'm not saying working folk shouldn't keep dogs if they work 8 hour days ... but definately shouldn't work those hours and have a very young pup.

The poor thing is only just getting used to not being with mum and its littermates. That's bad enough. Why would anyone put a puppy through loneliness as well? The pup will look to you for comfort and company for a long time while little. To deprive it of that is cruel.

When I had my first dog, I remember being so paranoid about her being upset one day when I had to go out for a few hours. I rang the answer phone once every 20 minutes or so :lol: It was one of the ones that plays aloud as the message is recording. I made lots of loving noises, and the occasional "Honey! on your bed! ... that's a good girl".

By the time I got home I had filled the answer phone  But she had been good! It didn't make me think it was fine to leave her though. I think she was 3 before I left her for longer than 3 or 4 hours. I still panicked now and again that she was lonely though.

To the OP and anyone else in a similar situation. Have you thought about putting an add in a shop window or local paper for a dog walker? Remember that kids are off school for the summer soon! Not only will you be able to afford it better, but if you offer a reference to the walker, it will go well in his/her CV once they leave school to show they are great with responsibility!


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## westie~ma (Mar 16, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> But my first was a 10week pup, no other dogs in the house and the time I devote to them when I am not working ramains the same year round. I had a wedding at the wekend and I drove there. After the meal I then drove myself and a few other doggie friends back home. Took the dogs out. Drove back to the wedding. Got back from the wedding. Took the dogs out again. IT IS NEVER COMPROMISED. Even if i get called out for wok and have to remote access from home I will ensure I take the odgs out after so they don;t miss out. Sure I get tired but so do the dogs so when they have a snooze, I grab a snooze. Easy.
> 
> If you are at home working then you are hardly providing quality time to both dogs and work.
> 
> Flipping heck. You don't know who the breeder was, what they talked to me about, what their past is, what they have done after the sale for me, how often they are in touch and what their set up was. A bit harsh and a bit prejudice don't you think?


Hutch, you obviously dote on your dogs and they have a wonderfully active lifestyle which tired me out just reading about :lol: While I'm not against working peeps having dogs, I don't think having a young puppy and working is ideal. Luckily for yourself and Monty's mum things have worked out well, but sadly not everyones situation works out like that.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Flipping heck. You don't know who the breeder was, what they talked to me about, what their past is, what they have done after the sale for me, how often they are in touch and what their set up was. A bit harsh and a bit prejudice don't you think?


Flipping heck! don't take everything so personally, I was generalising. I was commenting on Wooliewoos post. If someone is refused a puppy by a breeder who doesn't want their pups left for 8 hours (and in my experience it would be most responsible breeders) then they will just go elsewhere as there are plenty that will allow it, particularly if it means a sale.

If you have left a 10 week old puppy for 8 hours, then who was there to give it it's lunch time feed. No way can 10 week old puppy hold it's bladder for 8 hours. It may have worked for you, it may work for others, but I can assure you that for most it doesn't. We end up picking the pieces in rescue.
All I can say is to echo vivienne's very intelligent post.


> All I read is I do it so it cannot be wrong - well sorry I do not agree.





> If you are at home working then you are hardly providing quality time to both dogs and work.


I'm not even dignify that with an answer 

I can only echo Vivienne's comment.


> I am in the camp that thinks "To own a pet is a privilege not a right


".


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Well I work, my OH works and we've managed it so that Rupert is not on his own for more than 4-5 hours at a time.

I took the first week off when we had him to get him used to his surroundings, but I have to work. End of discussion. I'm not in a position not to. I looked into re-homing, but the RSPCA wouldn't as my garden isn't big enough, aparently. Plus, some re-homed dogs have as many issues with being left as pups.

I get up at 06:15 with Rupert. He gets fed, goes out, I play with him whilst I'm having breakfast.

Then at any time between 07:00-08:00 I go to work and he goes upstairs for a cuddle with the O/H. He usually gets up at about 09:00 and takes him for a walk, then gives him a bit more food. He leaves for work at 11:00. Leaving Roo in his crate, with the door open so he can get out, as he's only 12 weeks. 

Molly from next-door-but-one comes in when she finishes school at about 3:30-4:00pm and plays with him for a good hour or so until I am home, or she leaves him in the kitchen for me, I'm never more than half an hour behind her.

Once I am home its tea time for him, then to the yard where he can explore to his hearts content. Then back home for some rest time. At about 9pm other half comes home and we tend to take the mutt for a quick 10 min toilet walk at about half past. If he doesn't go on the walk he goes into the garden before we go to bed, usually between 11pm and 12 pm.

I don't think he does too badly, and until recently he'd been staying downstairs, in his crate from midnight to me getting up NO worries, however somethings upset the routine and we're back to square one.

I'll get there eventually though, sure of it.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

vivienne said:


> hutch 6
> If you spend that much time with your dog good for you. But please be honest do you really think the average dog owner would get up that early to walk their dog or spend over 2 hours walking the streets in the dark, rain and wind in winter. I don't believe so.
> And there is still the long period of time the dogs are left .
> I do not work, I am home all day and of course I do not interact with my dog all the time. I am here though and she can come and find me any time she wants. She can ask to go out in the garden when she wants and in summer the door is left open and she can choose if she wants to be in or out. She has some freedom to potter and investigate things.
> ...


I do spend that amount of time out and about as I refuse to waste my time watching idiots on TV (personal opinion) and I have plenty of dog walking pals who have a similar schedule to me. I know only one that does not put the quality time into trainign and they have all sorts of problems with their dogs but when their dog came to stay with me for this easter wekend just gone he was absolutely fine. I even spent my house cleaning time clicker training him on the moors as they didn't do jack with him.

There might be dogs in rescues due to all kinds of reasons but I am not adding to the issue, far from it. I have had pets all of my life so I am well aware of the work that is needed.

My rescues might not have been puppies but they had more issues than what my puppy turned up with believe me having learned nothing but undesirable behaviours hence why they were put into rescues to begin with. It wasn't even slightly easy but I managed without their lives suffering anymore or my own sanity.

Throughout this I have remained of the opinion that if you want it to work then have to work at it. There is a way of doing things but they differ across the board. Rather see the OP rehome the dog or take it to a rescue I am offering advice that it can be done rather than remaining in the doom and gloom of it is cruel or neglectful. It might be cruel and it might be neglectful but hese statements are always follwed by "in my opinion". In my opinion it might no be ideal but it is still able to work. We don't live in an ideal world but if you make the very best of what is going on in your own world then it can't be a bad thing.


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## Michelle666 (Jun 12, 2008)

Hutch6... I'm with you on this!

I have a dog, she is now just past a year old. We've had her from 8 weeks old. She was purchased from a repertable breeder quite some distance away. 
We spent the first couple of weeks with her, teaching toilet training. We both went back to work, OH popped in every so often. 
Sadie was toilet trained from 4 months, and even to this day when I get home after work, she refuses to go out for at least 30mins! She's also very very lazy...but we will always go for morning AND evening walks together. OH is usually found play fighting with her for at least an hour...both end up very tierd! Sadie is happy, if she wasn't I would expect to find my whole house destroyed, but I don't - sometimes I can come in and she barely lifts her head to greet me, instead sighs and goes back to sleep!

The neighbours have only ever commented on her barking once, and that was because she was scaring some bloke off who was trying to steal OH's motorbike from the garden - She's a fab guard dog!!!

Its not an ideal situation, but we all cope fine. Occasionally Sadie might go to work with her Daddy, and sometime Daddy hasn't got any work so can stay at home. Sadie is happy either way...and please I would rather not hear from those telling me she's not!


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## Michelle666 (Jun 12, 2008)

vivienne said:


> But please be honest do you really think the average dog owner would get up that early to walk their dog or spend over 2 hours walking the streets in the dark, rain and wind in winter. I don't believe so.


I do!

We have a park right behind our house...and I quite often meet other fellow dog walkers at that time, who are also going to work! 
We go for longer walks to a big country park. 
I believe if you want a dog that badly you make sacrifices!


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

So looking over what has been said it seems that the average dog owner is:

A full time worker hance the vast majority of trainign classes being held on an evening and weekend.

Can be seen in the early hours walking their dogs as we seem to see the same people and dogs on our weekly morning walks.

This means that the OP isn't really doing anything different to what your average dog owner does anyway. Then with average dog onwers stating that they have managed through one way or another then it can be doen and it can be done with no major effect on the dog from what I have seen and heard.

Problem dogs come from both households where they are left and also from households where they have regular contact with owners.

We know that some people view one thing one way and others will view it differently, such is life.

I hope that if the OP is comitted to giving the dog the best they can and making sure that the risk having a problem dog later is reduced then they have plenty of people to ask for advice and experience if they want to.


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## vivienne (Jun 2, 2010)

Where do you get these points for the average dog owner from?
It seems as if you have taken it from a few posts on a pet forum - hardly representative of dog owners as a whole.
If you use my village as a basis the average dog owner would be retired/not working away from home.
Walk their dogs early morning and late afternoon.
Leave their dog with a local dog sitter if going to be away all day for any reason.
I don't want to criticise any individual who is putting themselves out for their dog but I am asking you to look beyond your own experience and consider that many dogs owners are no where near as conscientious.
People are taking it very personally - I am talking about the principle of working fulltime and having a puppy.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

vivienne said:


> Where do you get these points for the average dog owner from?
> It seems as if you have taken it from a few posts on a pet forum - hardly representative of dog owners as a whole.
> If you use my village as a basis the average dog owner would be retired/not working away from home.
> Walk their dogs early morning and late afternoon.
> ...


I am going on what people have mentioned, the people I see when out and about and get talking to, the people they talk to, friends and family I know and a few bits and bobs from around the web would also suggest I am not far from the mark even though I am generalising.


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## hammers24 (Jun 8, 2010)

wow what a responce. i am very greatful for the advise that has been given and i will all bear in mind.but please be aware that my puppy will be in a secure area has a crete playpen e.t.c good knows how much money i have spent on her and i dont care. but asking the vet and im sure they no what there talking about and verious pet shops that my puppy will learn to adjust with me being away and if it has sa will do her good me being away.and thats comeing from the advise given from vet and pet shops. but thanks for all your advise and i will keep it in mind:thumbup:


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Vets and pet shops are not experts in canine behaviour. I personally would take more notice of behaviourists and those who work/have worked in dog sheleters to get the bigger picture. 

My remarks were based on years of actual experience of working with dogs with seperation anxiety and other 'home alone' problems, plus seeing the end result come in time and time again in dog rescue shelters. Puppies need company.

I wish you luck. It was nothing personal. (despite the claims from those who misunderstood my intentions)


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## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

hammers24 said:


> wow what a responce. i am very greatful for the advise that has been given and i will all bear in mind.but please be aware that my puppy will be in a secure area has a crete playpen e.t.c good knows how much money i have spent on her and i dont care. but asking the vet and im sure they no what there talking about and verious pet shops that my puppy will learn to adjust with me being away and if it has sa will do her good me being away.and thats comeing from the advise given from vet and pet shops. but thanks for all your advise and i will keep it in mind:thumbup:


I agree with Caroline. Our vets answer was ummmm SA? I'll call a trainer. Not that he was much use either as he said a citronella collar. (Pet shops exist to sell you things) yes some are helpful, but by no means experts.

If she does truly have SA being alone for long periods will mean you have a very stressed dog. Yes she needs to be left but as I said on your other thread last night you have to build it up slowly. The impression I got from you last night is that she wouldn't even settle away from you but she could still see you. How do you expect the poor mite to cope? :confused1:

I'm not having a go, just that on one thread you seem to think she will be fine and dandy, on another thread she has SA :confused1:

SA is a dogs worst nightmare. It would be like shutting you in a dark room full of spiders for 8 hours, if you fear was the dark and Spiders.


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## BrucieBonus (Dec 7, 2009)

Hi Hutch,

Just wanted to say that I agree with you completely. I do hesitate from answering on these controversial threads as I dont want to be shouted down, but from my own experience I agree that it can work. Our gsd x staffy is left alone in the day time and has been since 13 weeks old. In an ideal world I would not have to work, but I do, and that shouldn' t mean that I cant own a dog. It's not fair to say that people who are either wealthy enough not to have to work or are on benifits and dont work are by default the only people able to own a dog responsibly. My next door neighbours dont work but leave their dogs in the garden alone even though they are always home. It's definitely how you cope with it. We've moved to the country and our dog gets a country run every day.



hutch6 said:


> Right let's say I am missing the point then.
> 
> Can someone explain to me then how so many puppies get brought up with so many people working? Is there a massive booming business out there for puppy minders that I can get in on? If people who work full-time should get an older dog where does that older dog grow up from a being a pup?
> 
> ...


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## hammers24 (Jun 8, 2010)

thanks for that that has made me feel abit more confident.i hope it can be done. its not like she aint in a very loving home and i dont want to be made out to be cruel.yes i can see all of your views and yes i should of done more reserch and thought bout in abit more. but i took the dog not for me but for the love and affection and giving a loving home that i new i could give it. who know where in could of ended up.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Montys_Mum said:


> You might not have used those words (well you used neglect just then), but others have. I found it very hurtful.
> 
> Feeding - well we worked around this. But I won't go into how as I am sure someone will have a go  (lol)


But it IS neglect - if your puppy is alone for 8 hours a day without someone coming in to feed and toilet it - I can only assume you doubled feeds or squeezed meals together - puppies aren't fed four meals a day to irritate new owners or upset their schedules, they are fed four meals a day because their tummies are small and it can be dangerous to them to feed larger meals.

You have read what you've wanted to read - I* worked fulltime when I had my first dog and my second *- but had concrete infallible arrangements in place to ensure those pups were NEVER left more than 3 hours - waiting nearly 20 years for my first dog, and another 3 for my second - IN THE INTERESTS OF THE DOG - not because on a whim, I decided that's what the house needed.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

BrucieBonus said:


> Hi Hutch,
> 
> Just wanted to say that I agree with you completely. I do hesitate from answering on these controversial threads as I dont want to be shouted down, but from my own experience I agree that it can work. Our gsd x staffy is left alone in the day time and has been since 13 weeks old. In an ideal world I would not have to work, but I do, and that shouldn' t mean that I cant own a dog. It's not fair to say that people who are either wealthy enough not to have to work or are on benifits and dont work are by default the only people able to own a dog responsibly. My next door neighbours dont work but leave their dogs in the garden alone even though they are always home. It's definitely how you cope with it. We've moved to the country and our dog gets a country run every day.


But the fact remains, the dog is ALONE for 8 hours + a day - it doesn't matter what you do around those periods, it is simply not acceptable.

People also don't seem to have grasped that this dog, is a Rottie / GSD cross who at 9 weeks is *already* suffering from separating anxiety after VERY short periods, and is now going to be alone for 8 hours a day.

NO-ONE - certainly not me is saying you can't work full time and have a dog - but you make arrangements to ensure that the pup is not left alone for excessively long periods - and if you can't do that - THEN you don't get the dog.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

hammers24 said:


> wow what a responce. i am very greatful for the advise that has been given and i will all bear in mind.but please be aware that my puppy will be in a secure area has a crete playpen e.t.c good knows how much money i have spent on her and i dont care. but asking the vet and im sure they no what there talking about and verious pet shops that my puppy will learn to adjust with me being away and if it has sa will do her good me being away.and thats comeing from the advise given from vet and pet shops. but thanks for all your advise and i will keep it in mind:thumbup:


no vets don't know what they are talking about when it comes to this sort of thing...puppies need company to be home alone for 8hrs or so is not on. poor little thing. How you gonna get round feeding the poor thing? and toilet training it?


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## dinks (Apr 10, 2009)

Just to point out - those owners that have coped with this situation have arranged for someone to pop in to let puppy out/feed etc - the other poster has aleady said that they cant do this.
Hammers if your vet has said that then go find another vet!A good vet or even nurse should be able to give you basic advice- which this is!I agree
that vets know very little about behaviour but this is straight forward - it is wrong to leave a 9 week old puppy for 8 hours/day without anyone coming in to let out/feed etc.
I really hope you find a solution to this and that you and your pup are able to enjoy each other.


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## Montys_Mum (Jun 4, 2010)

dexter said:


> no vets don't know what they are talking about when it comes to this sort of thing...puppies need company to be home alone for 8hrs or so is not on. poor little thing. How you gonna get round feeding the poor thing? and toilet training it?


LOL Vets don't know???? Erm I think you'll find that they do know animals. Probably better than any of us!!!

Our puppy was trained with a mix of paper inside and going outside, which we worked on all the time we could, his house training has gone really well, he doesn't mess in the house when we are home and uses his paper when we are at work (if he has too). So no need to generalise that people who work can't house train a puppy because it isn't impossible to do at all!

As the poster says they have invested in the right set up. Just as we did. It can work and it isn't right to say it can never work.

I don't agree with being with your puppy/dog 24/7 because of the separation anxiety you will cause if you do leave it for a short time. Isn't that just as cruel?

From 11 weeks Monty has been on his own during working day and does really well (9 weeks old hubby was at home, 10 weeks old i popped home at lunch time), so we tried to ease him into it.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Montys_Mum said:


> LOL Vets don't know???? Erm I think you'll find that they do know animals. Probably better than any of us!!!


Having worked with various vets, i can assure you they know next to nothing about training, behaviour and nutrition. They know about anatomy, physiology and medicine. They arent taught anything else. Just as a GP isnt trained on human psychology and psychiatry.

Thats why vets refer to specialists when behavioural problems are diagnosed.

On topic, i dont think people are saying those that work full time can't/shouldn't have dogs, but that they should make arrangements for the dogs day to be broken up either by a friend/relative or a dog walker. The dogs needs must be met.

Leaving a dog, especially a puppy alone for a solid 8-9 hours is unfair.


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## dinks (Apr 10, 2009)

Hi Montys mum - I think thats really the point here - you managed to still pop home and tend to the pup -even with him being left for a long period-whereas this owner has already said this isnt a thing that was able to be done.
Theres a difference between leaving puppy home all day without seeing anyone at all and leaving pup for a few hours to pop in and say 'hi'.


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## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

There is one fact that still remains is this pup is already showing signs of SA, which is concerning.

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/106489-sepration.html

This is the thread the OP started last night. Lots of advice but little seems to have been acknowledged, even if they had a different opinion.


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## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

He may be well behaved etc.

But you know when you have sick days, and you get bored after a few hours cuz there's nothing to do.

Think of the puppy doing that without any company and little entertainment..

It has to do that every day. I don't think that's fair. if you can have somebody in to play for a few hourse, let out the dog, and walk it around. then that's fine. 

But leaving a puppy unattended completely is not in my opinion okay. 

Not that my opinion really matters, I'm just letting you know.

-edit-

I think the OP is doing what i did when i found it would be best to wait 2 extra weeks to get Star 9which is when i would be away), denying it. Becuz you don't want to except what you are doing is wrong, because you want it so badly.

We did wait the time, and I know I've done star a favour. I'm happy to ay she's a year old now. And if anything over scoialised xD (she loves all dogs, even if they bite her).


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Montys_Mum said:


> LOL Vets don't know???? Erm I think you'll find that they do know animals. Probably better than any of us!!!


Wrong ROFPMSL.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Montys_Mum said:


> I don't agree with being with your puppy/dog 24/7 because of the separation anxiety you will cause if you do leave it for a short time. Isn't that just as cruel?


I am guessing you have simply not read some of the posts by people.

I very early on in this thread, that being with a pup 24/7 is not healthy -they must become accustomed to being alone - I don't think anyone would disagree with this.

However, the time periods we are talking about here are TOO long, it doesn't matter which way you write it, the OP says they aren't likely to be able to get anyone in to help out during the day, and they can't afford a dog walker.

None of that is wrong in itself, but getting a puppy when you know all this is 

If the dog was three or four years old, and acclimatised to being alone for periods, and was a well adjusted dog, you could say - while IMO far from ideal, it might work.

I've owned and / or worked with dogs for about 25 years of my life, I've seen first hand the effects of a bored GSD uncrated puppy who wasn't left for anywhere near the time periods we are talking about here - I've also seen first hand SA in a young adult dog who was never alone - NEITHER were pleasant at all.

I've seen a labrador crated at 8 months (not one of mine) because in 3 hours he could do untold damage to the house including despite the best protection, wrecking the place (and I mean wrecking - he caused thousands of pounds worth of damage)

He was put in a crate on the advice of a behaviourist - and unaccustomed to it, managed to smash his entire jaw to pieces by somehow moving the crate across the utlity room.

Like others, I've seen the dogs advertised at 6, 9, 12 months because the owners can no longer cope with them - the dogs PTS because they've been so destructive, and no one wants them 

The type of cross this dog is, rightly or wrongly, is likely to have minimal appeal to a lot of people looking for a rescue dog - particularly as an older dog - it is likely to be willful, require a lot of attention and exercise and need firm handling - which will all happen in a small window.


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## Montys_Mum (Jun 4, 2010)

Ref the leaving puppy/dog subject, this is just too hot a topic. People have very strong ideas and neither 'side' is going to convince the other. For me, I say so long as the animal is cared for in a safe place, is healthy, happy and well socialised that's priority 1. Too many animals are mistreated whether owner is home or not, and it's those issues that need to be stopped, you have all seen examples on those RSPCA pet rescue programmes, the animals beaten and left in appalling conditions, with injuries and illness left untreated etc.

--------

Well on the issue of vets' knowledge. Okay well perhaps your experience of vets differs from mine.

I go to a large practice, who have several surgeries over the county. They have trained and qualified people in behavioural issues with dogs/cats etc (these are vets who have done additional training).

Not only that, the main vet we see is great. When we first got Monty and took him into the practice for a check up, the vet talked with us for ages, giving us advice not only on health but on training and how to cope with any major issues that might arise. We were given a helpful pack of info and booked onto a puppy party 4 week course with them.

It was more for the owners than the pets, the puppies were supervised in play and the owners were trained on health, training, grooming, neutering, socialisation and many other topics. 

And there were Q & A sessions so we could ask for advice for any particular issues we were having. There was a different speaker each week, the class was small, and at least one of the speakers had qualifications in behavour/training skills. (All speakers were employed by the vet practice, they weren't 'brought in'.) NB this wasn't a puppy training class, but owners were given feedback on how their puppies behaved in the play sessions with advice on how to correct any unwanted behaviour. They also advocated professional training classes and keep a long list of the training classes in the County.

Don't forget that although most of vet training is on health issues (but I suspect they are also given some training on other matters) they also have many many years of experience with nervous/happy/angry/anxious etc dogs, cats, birds etc etc Most of our vets and vet nurses that we see all have pets too so can assist with their own experiences (just as we all do on here).

They are great if we call with a quick query, or pop into any of their practices before the appointments start up so we can have a quick weigh in, ask any quick questions and pick up worming tablets etc And if they are unable to assist, they will suggest specialists to help, which I think is the responsible thing to do (luckily we haven't had that sort of a problem but I have overhead others that have).

So maybe I am in a minority to be going to a vet practice with professionals who do know quite a bit. Maybe again I am very lucky and quite unique.

So when I say vets do know what they are talking about, it has come from experience 

And yes maybe I am passionate about this, but the main vet in question has been amazing with us. He tried a new procedure on a cat of ours who had been hit by a car. It was an injury he had never seen before, but was willing to try and fix it. Unfortunately the procedure didn't work, the damage was too great and although the tubes (kidney/bladder connections - not sure on their proper name) were reattached, they were too blocked to be usable and too damaged to be fixed. But he was able to give us 24 hrs at home with our 2yr cat to say goodbye (sorry starting to cry now), before having to take him in to be PTS. The vet was really good, and very patient and sympathic. They even knew how much money we had and made sure they didn't charge us anymore than what we had, even not charging us for the time Tybalt had to stay in the practice (he had to stay there several days). And a few days after Tybalt had gone a hand written card from the vet in question arrived with a lovely letter in it for us. So yes, I do stand up for them as they have helped us so much, and I am sure many other vets wouldn't have even tried to help poor Tybalt.


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## vivienne (Jun 2, 2010)

Vets -Seems like a completely different topic so I have started a new thread


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Monty's Mum - how many dogs have you owned and how many dogs have you bred? - That question is not in any way a put down - I am curious - because - vets are brilliant with the run of the mill things like vaccines and microchipping - a bit like insurance cover - you only really find out how good they are when you have a problem.

All I can say is that when you get into the breeding game, you often see a VERY different side to the vets knowledge.

The problem being, there are around 250 breeds, and like GP's to humans, they cannot be specialists in every field - but they should have the information to hand - sadly very many don't.

I have been very lucky with my own vets who are also a large practice, but would it shock you to know that they have *learnt from me* (and will admit that) in respect of health-testing and breeding - and I've only been doing it 3 years or so.


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## merlin39 (Jun 7, 2010)

Ive noticed some quite heated debate about leaving a puppy on this thread and seeing as you are all engaged in it i thought i would ask your advice! We have a 10.5 week old cockerpoo who is just lovely, fortunatly due to illness and subsiquend redundency my dear hubby is at home all day long with no imediate return to work, our issue is that we want merlin to be balanced and be happy to be left for short peroids of time like shopping, doc appointments, going out for meal etc. he is currently doing so well on the toilet training thing as if access is free he will go to his designated spot in the yard when he needs to go! 
problem is if the door is closed he will go by the door, to be expected at his age i know! we need to go out shopping etc and he is used to being crated at night so i was wondering if you would advice crating him on these occasions? prob no longer that 2/3 hrs? we always play like mad and toilet him for about 30/40 mins before going out then put him to bed so he sleeps. i was also wondering about getting a dog flap? any thoughts or success with them?


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## Montys_Mum (Jun 4, 2010)

swarthy said:


> Monty's Mum - how many dogs have you owned and how many dogs have you bred? - That question is not in any way a put down - I am curious - because - vets are brilliant with the run of the mill things like vaccines and microchipping - a bit like insurance cover - you only really find out how good they are when you have a problem.
> 
> All I can say is that when you get into the breeding game, you often see a VERY different side to the vets knowledge.
> 
> ...


I admit, my dog experience isn't great. We used to have an 18month old GSD x lab (for 6 months or so) and due to issues that aren't linked to any of this we couldn't keep her. That was a couple of years ago. We now have a puppy. We have had great support from our vets (see my prior post). We also have many family and friends with dogs, and in the early days we contacted the breeder for help and advise (who has always been happy to help).

Our vet, as I stated, do have specially training people there to give advice on behaviour. They also have much experience and are very patient and are great with guidance and reassurance, as well as the 'standard' vet work.

I am not saying everyone knows everything, there will be aspects of dogs you won't know either (and it's great you have been able to help your vets, don't get me wrong), just as I as a software tester don't know all software applications, but what I am saying is that to tar all vets with the same brush to say they don't know enough to help isn't right, some do and some don't.

I pointed out all the ways our vets have helped us and they continue to do so, we have also gone on dog training sessions, spoken to trainers on the phone, read books, watched DVDs etc we also chat to a lot of dog walkers we meet to get information/advice/share stories. So no, we aren't experts and we will/have made mistakes, I don't claim to know everything and nor do our vets, who (as I said) do refer people who need specialist help. I am sure even they would say they don't know it all.

But if the OP speaks to his vet for advice I am sure they will be able to help him out a bit, and someone earlier in the thread said that there was no point as all vets know is the physical stuff. I am just giving another point of view, to say that isn't always the case, and I know from experience that to be true.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

merlin39 said:


> he is used to being crated at night so i was wondering if you would advice crating him on these occasions? prob no longer that 2/3 hrs? we always play like mad and toilet him for about 30/40 mins before going out then put him to bed so he sleeps. i was also wondering about getting a dog flap? any thoughts or success with them?


I don't crate Roo during the day, simply because he is on hs own for about 4-5 hours before the dog walker comes so I con't expect him at 12 weeks to hold it for that long.

I would, however, if we were only away for 2-3 hours crate him, providing he had been toilet before hand as he can wee near the door too. To be honest, I wouldn't lock your pup in at this state, until you are confident he can hold it.

Try it when you are in first off, crate him for 20 minutes then leave the room, and go back a bit later, let him out and give him a treat. The next day build it up to 30 minutes and so on.

That's how I worked it up with Rupert. He takes himself in there now and happily plays. Still working on him not crying though, but we're getting there. Sometimes he will, sometimes he won't, which is an improvement on him going bananas all the time!


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

MontysMum, you are very lucky to have a vet like that. However, many vets are not the same. You would be surprised at how many are totally ignorant of canine behaviour and indeed at how many do not even know how to calm a dog for examination etc.  I have even seen dogs whose problem actually is with the vet, caused by the vets own actions. One young mastiff pup I saw had been alpha rolled and then slapped on the muzzle by a vet after it showed fear and tried to escape out of the room when the vet started to give it it's very first innoculation! How to create a vet-fearful dog in one fell swoop! Luckily we did get him over this, by changing the vet and sending him to one who made friends with him gradually over a few visits before even attempting to examine him, showing him that not all vets are to be feared.:thumbup:

So yes, some vets may be very good where behaviour modification is concerned but they rarely have a specific interest and in depth knowledge of that area unlike a dog behaviour specialist.


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## Montys_Mum (Jun 4, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> I have even seen dogs whose problem actually is with the vet, caused by the vets own actions. One young mastiff pup I saw had been alpha rolled and then slapped on the muzzle by a vet after it showed fear and tried to escape out of the room when the vet started to give it it's very first innoculation! How to create a vet-fearful dog in one fell swoop!


Ouch! No we have never experienced such a thing. Luckily with the way our vets and their staff are, Monty loves the vets! He charges in, tail wagging to get the fuss from the nurses lol From the first day they have done great, making sure it is a fun and happy place for pups to go, they have often said that they do it on purpose to aid in relaxing animals and hopefully make sure they have good experiences.

Our regular vet loves Monty too, and gives him food treats (little kibble biscuits) to keep him entertained while he gets checked over. After the exam the vet always makes a fuss of him while chatting to us about what was found, giving us advice where needed etc

I do understand not all vets are great, just wanted to stand up for the ones that are!


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

merlin39 said:


> Ive noticed some quite heated debate about leaving a puppy on this thread and seeing as you are all engaged in it i thought i would ask your advice! We have a 10.5 week old cockerpoo who is just lovely, fortunatly due to illness and subsiquend redundency my dear hubby is at home all day long with no imediate return to work, our issue is that we want merlin to be balanced and be happy to be left for short peroids of time like shopping, doc appointments, going out for meal etc. he is currently doing so well on the toilet training thing as if access is free he will go to his designated spot in the yard when he needs to go!
> problem is if the door is closed he will go by the door, to be expected at his age i know! we need to go out shopping etc and he is used to being crated at night so i was wondering if you would advice crating him on these occasions? prob no longer that 2/3 hrs? we always play like mad and toilet him for about 30/40 mins before going out then put him to bed so he sleeps. i was also wondering about getting a dog flap? any thoughts or success with them?


The more often you can expose a dog to a stress the better it will learn t cope with it but it has to be done in incremental intensity.

For teaching a dog that it is ok to be on it's own then start with very short periods of time. If your dog is used to you going out and doesn't carry on the moment you shut the door to the room it is in then you can't even think about leaving the house as yet.
If he is crate trained for nights then there is no reason you can't crate him for a few minutes. Then 10mins. Then 15mins. 20. 30. 45. 1hr. 1hr 10 etc until you get to the 3hr mark.
We view a crate a safe containment area to help keep the dog from hurting itslef when we are not able to be there or cause damage to property. They view it as a nice quiet safe place if it is done correctly.

I know loads of people that contain their dogs when they are not there. Some use crates, soem use rooms, some use kennels and some use outdoor runs. Essentially they all serve the same purpose.

Him toiletting near the door is brilliant news believe it or not as he is trying to get to where you want him to go but he can't get there so he is going as close to it as possible, even if that is inside at the wrong side of the door.

Sounds like you are doing a fab job so far so keep up the good work.


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## Montys_Mum (Jun 4, 2010)

Try keeping an eye on him and as soon as you see him near the door, let him out. That's one of things we did with Monty. Now he sits by the door and glares at us. If we don't notice he sometimes whines, comes and stands in front of us and heads back to the door lol 

We crate overnight and he has kitchen when we are out with access to open crate (as that is his den, he is never shut out of it).

Edit: ref dog flap, the previous owners of our house used it for their smaller dogs. We just use it for the cats. I'd worry if Monty had access to it regularly, in case he went out when we weren't at home and either hurt himself or got stolen. So we use training paper in one area of the kitchen floor when we are out for 3 hrs or more. Less than that, then he is fine without.
It doesn't get sorted overnight, but it will happen


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Montys_Mum said:


> I do understand not all vets are great, just wanted to stand up for the ones that are!


The problem is - so many of us DO take our vets at face value - and sadly, it's only when things to wrong we learn to the contrary 

I've lost sight of the number of dogs recently who have been misdiagnosed SEVERAL times using the same evidence - to the point where the last vet to be seen said, oh, this is the problem - PTS 

As luck would have it, a mutual friend knew that my eldest girl had the same problem from an accident last year - and had surgery, which the specialist advised me had a 95% success rate (she was very seriously ill, and would have no doubt ended up paralysed without it) - but two weeks on for her surgery, if it hadn't been for the shaved bits, no-one would have been any the wiser.

The fact is, the delays with that dog of misdiagnosis and refusing to refer could easily have cost this dog it's life un-necessarily - when surgery is available for this injury picked up early to enable the dog to make a full recovery.

My 7 year old is now bouncing around the place like a puppy


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

My own vet is lovely with my dogs and very good at handling them. But he is no behaviour expert and I would not have assumed him to be. If you want a dog treated for an illness or injury, you seek a vet's help. If you want help with a dog behaviour problem, you consult an expert in dog behaviour.


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## hammers24 (Jun 8, 2010)

new thred mayb needed now subject has changed


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