# What breed is this cat?



## eziofirenze (Sep 21, 2011)

Hi,

I was wondering if you guys could help me determine what kind of breed this cat is.










The cat was wandering inside our house when I noticed that it is not similar with the previous cats that are usually walking in our rooftops.

If you can determine the breed of this cat, it will be highly appreciated.

Thank you.


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## eziofirenze (Sep 21, 2011)

sorry about the picture... I forgot to rotate it..


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I'm afraid I don't know but why is it in that awful cage, please don't leave it in there


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## eziofirenze (Sep 21, 2011)

I don't have any available cage yet. But i'm working on it and I will transfer it to a more safer and comfortable cage as soon as possible.


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2011)

No idea, sorry.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

eziofirenze said:


> I don't have any available cage yet. But i'm working on it and I will transfer it to a more safer and comfortable cage as soon as possible.


Is it your cat? Can't you shut it in a room, anything's better that that wire floor. Cats don't live in cages


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## eziofirenze (Sep 21, 2011)

to simplysardonic,

It's a stray cat, I can't leave it in the open yet because sometimes the cat is aggressive to people. I don't know why. maybe because of it's previous owner. 

Don't worry, I'm planning on taking care of this cat so it will not stay in a cage.


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## Grace_Lily (Nov 28, 2010)

If it really has to stay in a cage do you not have a blanket you can put in there for him/her to lay on?


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Unless you know who the parents were - it's a moggy - it looks very thin and poorly though.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

spid said:


> Unless you know who the parents were - it's a moggy - it looks very thin and poorly though.


I was thinking that, it looks very unhappy & underweight, poor thing's back end is sunken in & bony
If it's a stray it's more likely to be a moggy not an actual breed


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## eziofirenze (Sep 21, 2011)

We just captured the cat awhile ago. Don't worry guys, we are planning to take care of the cat. So it will be back into good shape in no time! 

Thanks for the tip! I'll get the blanket right away.


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2011)

Poor cat :-( well done for taking it in


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## ChinaBlue (Feb 3, 2008)

Aww - yes, with the right food and plenty of TLC the cat will soon turn into something special. Well done you for taking him/her in.

May need a general vet check up though and worming and some flea treatment.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Well done for taking the cat into your home. I can understand you wanting to keep kitty separate from others in your household, but a nice blanket to lie on would be good. It looks like a moggy to me.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

I'm not convinced it is a moggy, looks rather Burmese like to me. It's in poor condition that's for sure. Am I right in thinking that you are not in the UK?

Liz


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## gemcml (Aug 15, 2011)

He/she does look rather Burmesey, but the colours look tortie to me. It's hard to tell until she is back to full health - poor thing 
well done for taking her in though


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Hang on, it's got blue eyes. Some sort of Siamese pointing there, then.

Liz


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## missmoomoo (Jul 23, 2011)

I think probably a seal point siamese cross... I can see tabby markings (or is that just the light?) hope the cat turns out ok she/he doesn't look in good condition at all  poor baby.
Please keep us updated with the progress


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

In other words: a moggie. Burmese do not have blue eyes or tabby markings. Siamese do not have these tabby markings. There is no such thing as a cross breed cat. There are pedigrees and domestic shorthairs or domestic Longhairs. This cat is a domestic shorthair. It can only be pedigree if you know it's parentage and it has the right papers.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Sacremist said:


> In other words: a moggie. Burmese do not have blue eyes or tabby markings. Siamese do not have these tabby markings. There is no such thing as a cross breed cat. There are pedigrees and domestic shorthairs or domestic Longhairs. This cat is a domestic shorthair. It can only be pedigree if you know it's parentage and it has the right papers.


I should probably just make another thread, because I imagine this is a huge question, but why is that? Why are their cross-breed dogs, and people are comfortable picking out the traits in their "mutts" that can be traced back to particular breeds, but it isn't the same with cats? Why is it not acceptable to try to figure out where certain things like long ears, or blue eyes or silken coat might come from? And, please, don't think I'm being snarky or trying to stir up trouble. It's just that, as the slave of 6 rescues of unknown origins, it's interesting to watch their different behaviors, or coat changes, or development from kittens, and ponder what might have gone on in their parentage and it's frustrating when the only answers you get back are "moggy". But if you had a dog of similar background, then everyone would be in on saying, well the floppy ears and short legs point to basset hound, but the wiry coat looks like terrier.

Obviously, everyone knows their pet is a mix but a mix of what?


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Sacremist said:


> Siamese do not have these tabby markings.


yes they do - the tabby points do.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

I imagine, to the ops latest question, it is because dogs have a much wider variety of looks. Yes a Persian and a Siamese look different to each other, but it's negligible compared to say a pug and a st Bernard. Hence why it's easier to see breed traits. 

I would say your cat is just an unusually coloured moggy  whilst elements of some breeds canne seen, it could be generations back. Some nights very closely resemble pedigrees as maybe some way back there was one of that breed in the mix. You can't tell really.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Also, for all intents and purposes, all these fancy cockerpoos and labradoodkes, are mutts. Until the breeds are recognised, which is unlikely as they're finding it hard to get two pups with the sale type lol, they are mutts.

I just think 'mutt' seems a more negative word than moggy so people use the other names. But a crossbreed dog is a mutt, and a crossbreed cat is a moggymogster!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> and ponder what might have gone on in their parentage and it's frustrating when the only answers you get back are "moggy"


Just as with dogs people do refer to a first cross of known origin as an A x B and just as with dogs once you've gone beyond that it's simply a 'mog' or a 'mutt'. The American term 'mixed breed' is probably more acceptable to those who find the other terms objectionable. I don't because I don't use them as an insult and don't assume others do either.

The general rule is that an animal is a pedigree if it can be registered as a particular breed with a recognised registration body. Any cat can be registered with the GCCF but without a traceable history it will be recorded as 'no known breed' - a mog.

There are hybrid breeds created initially from first crosses but it isn't a case of somebody deciding a mating happens to have produced pretty offspring, giving it a breed name and it's therefore a pedigree cat. It takes years of enthusiasm and deep pockets to go through the necessary stages to get a new breed accepted and officially recognised.


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## lulubel (Apr 28, 2011)

dagny0823 said:


> It's just that, as the slave of 6 rescues of unknown origins, it's interesting to watch their different behaviors, or coat changes, or development from kittens, and ponder what might have gone on in their parentage and it's frustrating when the only answers you get back are "moggy".


Yes. I totally agree with this. The first time my vet (at the time) saw Sam, he said, "Oh, very oriental." I know that Sam matches all of the personality traits of Burmese cats, and looks a lot like many of the pictures of Burmese that I've seen, especially in American books. But he's black, so not a recognised colour, and so his parents were clearly not both Burmese. I found him, and have no clue about his parents at all. The result of this is, any time I've asked if people can see anything in Sam, I'm told, "He's just a moggy." Hang on, this is my Sam we're talking about, he isn't JUST anything 

So, I don't bother asking any more. I just make up my own mind.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

spid said:


> yes they do - the tabby points do.


Not in the areas which this cat is showing tabby markings. Plus the type is nothing remotely like a Siamese.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

spid said:


> yes they do - the tabby points do.


Indeed they do, i was priviledged enough to shre my childhood with a tabby point Siamese, beautiful little cat, in character & looks


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

dagny0823 said:


> I should probably just make another thread, because I imagine this is a huge question, but why is that? Why are their cross-breed dogs, and people are comfortable picking out the traits in their "mutts" that can be traced back to particular breeds, but it isn't the same with cats? Why is it not acceptable to try to figure out where certain things like long ears, or blue eyes or silken coat might come from? And, please, don't think I'm being snarky or trying to stir up trouble. It's just that, as the slave of 6 rescues of unknown origins, it's interesting to watch their different behaviors, or coat changes, or development from kittens, and ponder what might have gone on in their parentage and it's frustrating when the only answers you get back are "moggy". But if you had a dog of similar background, then everyone would be in on saying, well the floppy ears and short legs point to basset hound, but the wiry coat looks like terrier.
> 
> Obviously, everyone knows their pet is a mix but a mix of what?


It's inevitable that you will find traits of what you think are pedigrees in domestic shorthairs or longhairs. This does not mean they have ever been genetically connected to pedigree cats. These traits can exist in all domestic cats to some degree because they are part of the feline genetic makeup. What makes a pedigree is the unique combination of traits which are passed down to their descendants with very little or only minor changes. The OP asked what breed of cat is this. It is a domestic shorthair. It does not conform in its entirety to any known pedigree breed either in colour, pattern or type.

I have colour pointed pedigree Birmans. Birmans, like Siamese and all other colour pointed breeds show tabby markings in the points but not usually in the body. This cat has tabby markings on the body.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

lulubel said:


> Yes. I totally agree with this. The first time my vet (at the time) saw Sam, he said, "Oh, very oriental." I know that Sam matches all of the personality traits of Burmese cats, and looks a lot like many of the pictures of Burmese that I've seen, especially in American books. But he's black, so not a recognised colour, and so his parents were clearly not both Burmese. I found him, and have no clue about his parents at all. The result of this is, any time I've asked if people can see anything in Sam, I'm told, "He's just a moggy." Hang on, this is my Sam we're talking about, he isn't JUST anything
> 
> So, I don't bother asking any more. I just make up my own mind.


Why do you interpret the word moggie as an insult? I have two moggies and they are beautiful. The OPs cat is beautiful. All moggies are beautiful. They don't have to be pedigree. Being a moggie is not demeaning so why let the term upset you. I am proud to be mum to two moggies.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

lulubel said:


> Yes. I totally agree with this. The first time my vet (at the time) saw Sam, he said, "Oh, very oriental." I know that Sam matches all of the personality traits of Burmese cats, and looks a lot like many of the pictures of Burmese that I've seen, especially in American books. But he's black, so not a recognised colour, and so his parents were clearly not both Burmese. I found him, and have no clue about his parents at all. The result of this is, any time I've asked if people can see anything in Sam, I'm told, "He's just a moggy." Hang on, this is my Sam we're talking about, he isn't JUST anything
> 
> So, I don't bother asking any more. I just make up my own mind.


Burmese cats are not Orientals. Burmese are foreign type.


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## K337 (May 20, 2011)

No idea about the cat from the photo but interesting that some people find the term 'moggy' or 'mutt' slightly unfavourable. 

Where I grew up in Aus we use the term moggy to also just mean cat, regardless of origin as well as the more normal non-pedigree meaning. 
My mum always asks after my mogs, which are Ocicats, and I call them my moggies just like I use the term 'mutt' for any cheeky dog


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

K337 said:


> No idea about the cat from the photo but interesting that some people find the term 'moggy' or 'mutt' slightly unfavourable.
> 
> Where I grew up in Aus we use the term moggy to also just mean cat, regardless of origin as well as the more normal non-pedigree meaning.
> My mum always asks after my mogs, which are Ocicats, and I call them my moggies just like I use the term 'mutt' for any cheeky dog


It puzzles me too. It also puzzles me as to why people are so desperate to have it confirmed that they have pedigree cat by wanting to know what breed is said cat. What does it matter what breed the cat is? Why can't it just be a moggy and be done with? If people so desperately want a pedigree cat, then go and get one, that way you won't have to ask, you'll know because you'll have the pedigree papers to prove it.


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## lulubel (Apr 28, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> Burmese cats are not Orientals. Burmese are foreign type.





Sacremist said:


> Why do you interpret the word moggie as an insult? I have two moggies and they are beautiful. The OPs cat is beautiful. All moggies are beautiful. They don't have to be pedigree. Being a moggie is not demeaning so why let the term upset you. I am proud to be mum to two moggies.


You had to quote me twice to demonstrate that you totally misunderstood my post, despite the fact that I'd included a smiley to demonstrate that it was lighthearted?

Despite the fact that I emphasised in my post that it's the word "just" that I take offence to, not the word "moggy" - I have two lovely moggies that don't show any specific traits of any particular breed - you automatically assumed I was objecting to the word "moggy". That's an interesting assumption and suggests more sensitivity on your part than mine.

Anyway, all that aside, you totally missed the point of my post. Sam's ancestors aren't important to me, any more than Milly's or Eva's are, but that doesn't stop me being curious. Along with ....

- Who left him there at the side of a dual carriageway?
- Why did they leave him there?
- Was it the breeder?
- Was it the new owner?
- Did they dump him because he had fleas?
- He was obviously loved (he's always trusted humans), so why was he dumped?

I can also ask ....

- What were his parents like?
- Does he have any particular breeds in his ancestry?

I ask questions like the first ones about Milly too (not the second ones because she doesn't show any traits that could suggest a specific breed anywhere in her ancestry). I know a little more of her history than Sam's, but there are still more questions to ponder on. Same with Eva, although I can answer the question about her mother with near certainty because I'm pretty sure she's the cat who comes in my garden.

Anyway, my point was that I do ponder these things, and it upsets me when people demonstrate a total lack of interest in my cats or my thoughts about them by saying, dismissively, "Oh, he's just a moggy."

It's exactly the same kind of lack of interest that some people in this thread have demonstrated, in fact.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Also, for all intents and purposes, all these fancy cockerpoos and labradoodkes, are mutts. Until the breeds are recognised, which is unlikely as they're finding it hard to get two pups with the sale type lol, they are mutts.
> 
> I just think 'mutt' seems a more negative word than moggy so people use the other names. But a crossbreed dog is a mutt, and a crossbreed cat is a moggymogster!


I agree, and I don't see any negative connotations in mutt or moggy--any pet can be the most beautiful and loveable to you. It's just that it seems to be encouraged in dog-world to contemplate origins, and in cat-world it gets shut right down. I've even seen threads where someone is asking "does the face shape look siamese?" or "do you think there's some MC here?" and the answers don't go much further than "it's a moggy, nothing more." It's like it's a socially unacceptable question.

I know there are people obviously just want desperately to think that their little mogbaby is a secret pedigree. I had a friend like that. His kittens had some ragdoll characteristics, so he told everyone they were ragdolls and when he got rid of them mad: :mad2 less than 2 years later, he thought people would want them more because they were ragdolls. That's just silliness. And I also see the point that there are obvious differences between dog breeds that don't quite exist between cat breeds. But that kind of makes the mystery more interesting. I think Ellie has some Siamese blood--she sounds just like one and her bone structure looks rather Siamese. Blake looks to have a fair amount of MC in him; Jezebel too, but to a lesser degree. Chaucer seems to be a little ragdoll, judging by his temperament, love of being limp and relaxed, and his coat. Gwennie's squishy face points to some ASH heritage. We'll never know, but it's fun to speculate.


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## gemcml (Aug 15, 2011)

I am a tad confooooosed as to how pedigrees have come into the equation 

The OP's cat in question is obviously a moggy, and perhaps the title "what breed is this cat?" is what has caused it to go into an in depth convo about moggies and Persians and pedigrees and what not. Obviously the cat is a moggy but you can see she/he has some traits of a Siamese or something, that isn't to say it is a Siamese or a pedigree, or more special than your average Joe Bloggs moggy  ...but just that it has some Siamese characteristics. Whether it be through parents or generations back. Bottom line is, it is meaningless and he/she is still a moggy but there's no harm in asking others what they can see in the cat.

For example, i have just adopted Truffles who is half Persian, of course the big fluffy tail and the big yellow eyes are a bit of a give away that she had a Persian parent, and if someone was to ask "is she Persian?" i would obviously have to say "she is half Persian" ...that wouldn't be me trying to pass her off as something she is not and trying to make her sound like a pedigree or anything, but just because she IS half Persian so if i were to say "no she is just a moggy" would sound a bit silly really, don't you think?


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Sacremist said:


> It puzzles me too. It also puzzles me as to why people are so desperate to have it confirmed that they have pedigree cat by wanting to know what breed is said cat. What does it matter what breed the cat is? Why can't it just be a moggy and be done with? If people so desperately want a pedigree cat, then go and get one, that way you won't have to ask, you'll know because you'll have the pedigree papers to prove it.


Sorry---I missed this one when I replied to GM. This is the attitude of my former friend exactly. It's really quite silly. Maybe because I'll never know where any of mine came from (although we speculated that Jezebel's mother was the big fluffy tabby 2 streets down who produced litter after litter, poor dear, and Freja and Kirby's mum had to be the gorgeous cat who would come by about 5 times a week to say hi and sit on our tree stump and catch chipmunks, and I'm pretty certain Chaucer's dad lives at the other end of our street now). But I do find it fascinating to try to solve a puzzle of their histories in terms of breed origins and how they influence temperament and physical characteristics. On a more practical note, I guess, it gives a starting point for illnesses to maybe watch out for if they are more prevalent in some breeds making up the cat's heritage. We can keep an eye out for earlier symptoms to worry about (as I so love to worry!!) that might catch something earlier if possible.

But really in all honesty, it's mostly curiosity on my part.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

I'm not knowledgeable enough about the dog world but as you mentioned, people use pedigree looks or supposed heritage to charge more.

See how many ragdoll or Bengal cross cats you will see on rehome sites, for ridiculous prices, poorly bred and underage, no vaccs. You could prob get a full pedigree for less, and a moggy for much much less, but people get suckeredin for a 'cheap' pedigree and then, half of then wanna breed their ragdoll cross cos it's half pedigree! Why not... Etc.

I don't know if these issues are present in the dog world though.


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## lulubel (Apr 28, 2011)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> See how many ragdoll or Bengal cross cats you will see on rehome sites, for ridiculous prices, poorly bred and underage, no vaccs. You could prob get a full pedigree for less, and a moggy for much much less, but people get suckeredin for a 'cheap' pedigree and then, half of then wanna breed their ragdoll cross cos it's half pedigree! Why not... Etc.


Maybe it's these issues that motivate some people to react so negatively when anyone expresses an interest in their cat's ancestry.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Gencml, do you say she's half Persian half moggy, or do you just mention the Persian half? 

Truffles is lovely but she looks like many long haired moggys I have seen, without the walking carpet Persian look.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

lulubel said:


> Maybe it's these issues that motivate some people to react so negatively when anyone expresses an interest in their cat's ancestry.


I don't think it's necessarily negative, it's just impossible to tell really with cats. The ops cat from looks could have 4-5 pedigree breeds mixed in, or it could have none as it is possible for those colours to occur working a mixed genetic background without any specific being there.

Totally on my iPhone so apologies for the autocorrect typos!


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

lulubel said:


> You had to quote me twice to demonstrate that you totally misunderstood my post, despite the fact that I'd included a smiley to demonstrate that it was lighthearted?
> 
> Despite the fact that I emphasised in my post that it's the word "just" that I take offence to, not the word "moggy" - I have two lovely moggies that don't show any specific traits of any particular breed - you automatically assumed I was objecting to the word "moggy". That's an interesting assumption and suggests more sensitivity on your part than mine.
> Anyway, all that aside, you totally missed the point of my post. Sam's ancestors aren't important to me, any more than Milly's or Eva's are, but that doesn't stop me being curious. Along with ....
> ...


In what way does it highlight my sensitivity? A detailed explanation wouldn't go amiss. Maybe you should word your posts more clearly then people would not misunderstand what you mean.

You can ask whatever questions you like, that is your right. We can answer in whatever way we see fit, that is our right. You might not like the answers you get, but have two choices: accept those answers as our point of view or don't ask the question that way, you won't have to put up with reading answers you don't want to hear.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> I'm not knowledgeable enough about the dog world but as you mentioned, people use pedigree looks or supposed heritage to charge more.
> 
> See how many ragdoll or Bengal cross cats you will see on rehome sites, for ridiculous prices, poorly bred and underage, no vaccs. You could prob get a full pedigree for less, and a moggy for much much less, but people get suckeredin for a 'cheap' pedigree and then, half of then wanna breed their ragdoll cross cos it's half pedigree! Why not... Etc.
> 
> I don't know if these issues are present in the dog world though.


This is true--I forgot all about the whole "I wanna breed my <insert pet here> because it's so gorgeous/sweet/part pedigree" issue. I suppose it's just as true with dog people too. The amount of people who haven't a clue and get easily suckered is amazing. I ran into a woman at the post office who had a "teacup medium haired" chihuahua. She was boasting of how much she paid for it as it was a teacup (so a problem right there) and it was a cross between a long hair and a short hair (I am quite certain it works as it does with cats and the parents didn't split the difference on hair length. Poor little dog was dressed in a tutu no less! Or the nice but clueless neighbors up the street who wanted to breed their "Boston Russell" with our blue merle corgi, because they loved his blue eyes and thought they'd make gorgeous puppies (hmmm Boston Cardigan Cor-jacks? How's that for designer?)


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## gemcml (Aug 15, 2011)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Gencml, do you say she's half Persian half moggy, or do you just mention the Persian half?
> 
> Truffles is lovely but she looks like many long haired moggys I have seen, without the walking carpet Persian look.


That would depend entirely on how the question was asked. She just looks like a long haired tabby but the tail and eyes are the only persian trait. So if i were asked about the persian i would comment about having half persian. if i was asked if she was a moggy? yes she is just a moggy!


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

In all the excitement, I forgot to say to the OP, poor thing has the makings of quite a beautiful cat once you've given her some TLC. I hope all works out and she blossoms with good feedings and love and that the vet check goes well. Looking forward to pictures as she progresses.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

gemcml said:


> I am a tad confooooosed as to how pedigrees have come into the equation
> 
> The OP's cat in question is obviously a moggy, and perhaps the title "what breed is this cat?" is what has caused it to go into an in depth convo about moggies and Persians and pedigrees and what not. Obviously the cat is a moggy but you can see she/he has some traits of a Siamese or something, that isn't to say it is a Siamese or a pedigree, or more special than your average Joe Bloggs moggy  ...but just that it has some Siamese characteristics. Whether it be through parents or generations back. Bottom line is, it is meaningless and he/she is still a moggy but there's no harm in asking others what they can see in the cat.
> 
> For example, i have just adopted Truffles who is half Persian, of course the big fluffy tail and the big yellow eyes are a bit of a give away that she had a Persian parent, and if someone was to ask "is she Persian?" i would obviously have to say "she is half Persian" ...that wouldn't be me trying to pass her off as something she is not and trying to make her sound like a pedigree or anything, but just because she IS half Persian so if i were to say "no she is just a moggy" would sound a bit silly really, don't you think?


Exactly, the words highlighted above are what have caused this. Maybe if the OP had written something different rather than: "What breed is this cat?" we may never have found ourselves going down this route. The very question in itself suggests the OP is trying to identify if this cat belongs to one specific breed rather than having some traits of different breeds. If you know for a fact that you cat had one parent who was Persian and you say as much fine, but that does not make it a Persian anymore than the OPs cat belongs to any one particular breed. Maybe the OP could have said, "What breed traits can you see in this cat?" Then maybe would have discussed the similarities said cat had to different breeds, but the OP didn't, hence the reason why we are saying it is a moggie. The short answer to the OP's question is: it is a moggie, it is not a pedigree. Does it have some traits of pedigrees, yes, it probably does, but it is difficult to tell from that picture exactly what.


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## lulubel (Apr 28, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> In what way does it highlight my sensitivity? A detailed explanation wouldn't go amiss. Maybe you should word your posts more clearly then people would not misunderstand what you mean.
> 
> You can ask whatever questions you like, that is your right. We can answer in whatever way we see fit, that is our right. You might not like the answers you get, but have two choices: accept those answers as our point of view or don't ask the question that way, you won't have to put up with reading answers you don't want to hear.


You assumed that I had taken offence to the word "moggy" despite the fact that I'd clearly, in capital letters, emphasised the word "just" as the one I took offence to. That shows that you reacted to "moggy", not "just" (despite the fact that "just" was emphasised), so you're obviously sensitive to the word in some way. I don't know in what way. I could make assumptions, but they would be just that - assumptions.

As for asking questions .... I didn't ask any that I wanted answered. I just posted some examples of things I wonder about my own cats. I only joined this thread to agree with another poster who finds it hard when people don't show any interest in the questions she asks about her own cats, and to say that's the reason why I don't ask the questions any more.

Now, having hopefully answered your question, I'm going to leave this thread because I come here to talk about cats and relax, and I'm not finding this discussion particularly relaxing.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

lulubel said:


> You assumed that I had taken offence to the word "moggy" despite the fact that I'd clearly, in capital letters, emphasised the word "just" as the one I took offence to. That shows that you reacted to "moggy", not "just" (despite the fact that "just" was emphasised), so you're obviously sensitive to the word in some way. I don't know in what way. I could make assumptions, but they would be just that - assumptions.
> 
> As for asking questions .... I didn't ask any that I wanted answered. I just posted some examples of things I wonder about my own cats. I only joined this thread to agree with another poster who finds it hard when people don't show any interest in the questions she asks about her own cats, and to say that's the reason why I don't ask the questions any more.
> 
> Now, having hopefully answered your question, I'm going to leave this thread because I come here to talk about cats and relax, and I'm not finding this discussion particularly relaxing.


I still don't understand why you take offence to the word 'just' or 'just a moggie'. I can assure you I certainly have no sensitivity to the word moggie at all that really is JUST you making assumptions because you have nothing left to argue with so you are trying to find something to attack me with.

However, I repeat in answer to your question which appeared in the title of this thread and making sure I do not use the word 'just. IT IS A MOGGIE.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

lulubel said:


> Now, having hopefully answered your question, I'm going to leave this thread because I come here to talk about cats and relax, and I'm not finding this discussion particularly relaxing.


I'm sorry  I'm the one who turned the direction of the thread and I really didn't mean for it to become anything unpleasant. It was curiosity as I've been pondering this a while now.

........Brews virtual pot of chai tea.....virtually pours into virtual china cup....virtually hands to lulubel with humble apologies......turns on relaxation fountain......hopes that all helps........


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

spid said:


> yes they do - the tabby points do.





Sacremist said:


> Not in the areas which this cat is showing tabby markings. Plus the type is nothing remotely like a Siamese.





Sacremist said:


> Siamese do not have these tabby markings.


No I agree, Siamese do not have tabby all over (unless they are orientals) but I wasn't saying that this cat isn't a moggy - in fact my first post stated that - I just thought that saying siamese having don't have these tabby markings was a little misleading as siamese do have tabby markings like these just not all over and an uninformed reader might not have realised what you meant. I'm not sure on the blue eyes - I think it may just be a poor photo and/or the flash and that the eyes aren't really blue. A better photo would help/

This cat is a DSH; looks like a possible tortie tabby BUT it was rescued a while ago according to the OP - I hope it hasn't been in that cage too long and has been fed up a bit since the photo was taken.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Sorry, what is a DSH?


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Sacremist said:


> Sorry, what is a DSH?


Domestic Short Hair (moggy)


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

spid said:


> Domestic Short Hair (moggy)


Oh right! LOL!


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> Sorry, what is a DSH?


Domestic Shorthair??

I don't actually know, but thats what I thought when I read it 

Edited to say: Post faster!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I think I'm beginning to see where confusion (maybe even conflict) can arise over whether a cat is a pedigree or not or even has pedigree ancestry somewhere in the background. Breeders look at it from a completely different perspective, *proven ancestry* rather than phenotype, or even genotype being of importance.

If I use Siamese as an example, purely because everyone can immediately visualise one  Let's say someone with not so honourable intentions buys a boy and a girl as pets, they are properly registered pedigrees but not on the active (breeding) register. They mate them to produce kittens. Those kittens look like Siamese, act like Siamese and are genetically Siamese. They cannot be registered as Siamese though so they are mogs. To advertise or sell them as pedigree Siamese would be misrepresentation. It doesn't matter how many generations the byb carries on breeding these cats or however beautiful they may be. They cannot prove ancestry and any offspring are therefore not pedigree cats.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

I think a lot of it also is many people come on with kittens saying 'the breeder said this is a x and x cross etc' is that right?

If you have to ask, then probably not...

And I guess in a way people want them to realise that, in a way theyve been ripped off. Not in a 'haha you idiot' way but in a sort of 'live and learn' way. When people come on with 'half persian' 'half ragdoll' 'half bengal' that they paid £200 at 8 weeks, no vaccs, its a sad state of affairs.

Another one is a lot of DSH are sold as BSH... I think a lot is simply ignorance, the similarity -ish of the appearance, and similar acronym, but a lot is purposeful decieving.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

havoc said:


> I think I'm beginning to see where confusion (maybe even conflict) can arise over whether a cat is a pedigree or not or even has pedigree ancestry somewhere in the background. Breeders look at it from a completely different perspective, *proven ancestry* rather than phenotype, or even genotype being of importance.
> 
> If I use Siamese as an example, purely because everyone can immediately visualise one  Let's say someone with not so honourable intentions buys a boy and a girl as pets, they are properly registered pedigrees but not on the active (breeding) register. They mate them to produce kittens. Those kittens look like Siamese, act like Siamese and are genetically Siamese. They cannot be registered as Siamese though so they are mogs. To advertise or sell them as pedigree Siamese would be misrepresentation. It doesn't matter how many generations the byb carries on breeding these cats or however beautiful they may be. They cannot prove ancestry and any offspring are therefore not pedigree cats.


Hmmm, okay, I think it's becoming clearer.

I have noticed in this country (and it might be different here) with dogs (haven't really had much to do with pedigree cat owners)--people seem to think AKC registration means show dog quality pedigree and comes with all sorts of bragging rights. I thought so too when I was a kid, and we got a cocker spaniel from some people who bred their registered pet with another registered pet. We gave our puppy a high-falutin' registered name and thought she was really special (well, she was special, but that's because she was sweet and adorable). But she was really the product of a BYB or hobby breeder at best. And I've noticed similar instances where someone's mom breeds some dog and claims they're show dogs because they're registered, but they're pretty much family pets. They have papers, they're in a book somewhere, but there is a huge disparity between pet quality, show quality and best in breed---but uninformed people or those who love to brag think it's all one and the same.

Sorry to drag dogs into it, but it's the only comparison I can draw right now.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

havoc said:


> I think I'm beginning to see where confusion (maybe even conflict) can arise over whether a cat is a pedigree or not or even has pedigree ancestry somewhere in the background. Breeders look at it from a completely different perspective, *proven ancestry* rather than phenotype, or even genotype being of importance.
> 
> If I use Siamese as an example, purely because everyone can immediately visualise one  Let's say someone with not so honourable intentions buys a boy and a girl as pets, they are properly registered pedigrees but not on the active (breeding) register. They mate them to produce kittens. Those kittens look like Siamese, act like Siamese and are genetically Siamese. They cannot be registered as Siamese though so they are mogs. To advertise or sell them as pedigree Siamese would be misrepresentation. It doesn't matter how many generations the byb carries on breeding these cats or however beautiful they may be. They cannot prove ancestry and any offspring are therefore not pedigree cats.


Unfortunately, as well, a lot of BYB also breed what is probably a genuine pedigree on the inactive register with a cat which is a domestic longhair or shorthair. The progeny of that mating may have some characteristics of the original pedigree but not all. Even if the progeny do appear to look exactly like the pedigree, the bloodline has been diluted. As others have pointed out, when new breeds have been deliberately or accidentally created, the breeder has a lot of hoops through which to jump before the GCCF will recognise the progeny of said matings as a new breed. I'm not sure now exactly how many generations need to conform to type before they are recognised. I think it used to be 7.

I really don't have a problem with people asking if we can see anything in a cat which would suggest it is the progeny of a particular breed, somewhere down the line but I'm not going to say a cat definitely is a particular breed when it clearly is not.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

havoc said:


> If I use Siamese as an example, purely because everyone can immediately visualise one  Let's say someone with not so honourable intentions buys a boy and a girl as pets, they are properly registered pedigrees but not on the active (breeding) register. They mate them to produce kittens. Those kittens look like Siamese, act like Siamese and are genetically Siamese. They cannot be registered as Siamese though so they are mogs. To advertise or sell them as pedigree Siamese would be misrepresentation. It doesn't matter how many generations the byb carries on breeding these cats or however beautiful they may be. They cannot prove ancestry and any offspring are therefore not pedigree cats.


But, if you want to be pedantic, they are purebred cats. And, if you want to be pedantic, several generations of farmbred moggies, if accurate records are kept, could in theory be sold with a family tree that bears a very strong resemblance to a pedigree except for the lack of breed numbers.

Liz


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Oh absolutely Liz and that's how some breeds have been created and recognised. Registration bodies are first and foremost registries - the repository of those records. They are for the breeder and the pet buyer the independent proof of ancestry. It would be perfectly acceptable for the byb to advertise those kittens as 'Siamese type' but if they tried to register them a few generations down they would be be registered as no recognised breed so they're not pedigree Siamese.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> And I've noticed similar instances where someone's mom breeds some dog and claims they're show dogs because they're registered


They can be show dogs in that the owner can show them, they just may not be particularly good examples or successful  
With both dogs and cats you can have ugly duckling syndrome and I'm sure many, probably all, breeders have let a youngster go as a pet that they subsequently find turns into a stunner but will never be seen on the show bench. Likewise, not all promising youngsters turn out to be perfect examples as adults. It's a bit like playing poker - there are 52 cards out of which you get 5. The Royal Flush is definitely in there but you don't get dealt it often


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

lulubel said:


> Anyway, my point was that I do ponder these things, and it upsets me when people demonstrate a total lack of interest in my cats or my thoughts about them by saying, dismissively, "Oh, he's just a moggy."
> 
> It's exactly the same kind of lack of interest that some people in this thread have demonstrated, in fact.


I know what you are saying. I have 3 moggies, but I do speculate about their parentage. It is pretty harmless I reckon. I do not dispute that they are moggies, but just like any pedigree owner, I would like to know what their moms and dads looked like, where were they born, what were their previous owner/s like, how did they get into rescue, are there any baby photos, etc etc.
I suspect the OP feels the same. Perhaps the OP is new to cat ownership, hence the question about breeds. You have to start somewhere, not so?

At least the OP is giving this cat a home.

Anyway, OP, your cat is a domestic shorthair with lovely tabby markings (or torbie, perhaps, can't see from the photo). Wish you many years of loving companionship.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

dagny0823 said:


> Sorry---I missed this one when I replied to GM. This is the attitude of my former friend exactly. It's really quite silly. Maybe because I'll never know where any of mine came from (although we speculated that Jezebel's mother was the big fluffy tabby 2 streets down who produced litter after litter, poor dear, and Freja and Kirby's mum had to be the gorgeous cat who would come by about 5 times a week to say hi and sit on our tree stump and catch chipmunks, and I'm pretty certain Chaucer's dad lives at the other end of our street now). But I do find it fascinating to try to solve a puzzle of their histories in terms of breed origins and how they influence temperament and physical characteristics. On a more practical note, I guess, it gives a starting point for illnesses to maybe watch out for if they are more prevalent in some breeds making up the cat's heritage. We can keep an eye out for earlier symptoms to worry about (as I so love to worry!!) that might catch something earlier if possible.
> 
> But really in all honesty, it's mostly curiosity on my part.


I think this is where the problem lies, though, unlike dogs, the vast majority of domestic cats do not originate from pedigrees. Domestic cats have existed in their present form for thousands of years. Any resemblance they may have to a pedigree is purely coincidental and arises from the fact that all cats originate from the wild cat. Pedigree cats have come into being often as a result of genetic mutations or deliberately through breeding programmes. Those domestic cats which resemble a pedigree cat in some way do so because they have inherited a gene from their ancestors similar to a gene in a pedigree or maybe somewhere down their line they have also undergone some form of genetic mutation, but that does not necessarily mean that cat has an ancestor which was once a pedigree.

At the end of the day, a pedigree cat, is a cat like any other. What makes them pedigree is the fact they are registered with the GCCF. What makes them look the way they do: all the same, comes from only breeding like with like. Had someone not noticed an unusual looking cat born as a result of a genetic mutation and then decided to try and reproduce more cats which look the same, that cat would have never become a pedigree as we know it today. Likewise, if someone had not set up a breeding programme to develop a new breed with a unique look, they would not exist as pedigrees today. The vast majority of domestic cats have never had an ancestor which was a pedigree.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

I should also add that the domestic cat has been in existence a lot longer than any cat we now deem to be a pedigree, so rather than say which pedigree does this cat have in its genes, you should be saying which domestic cat does this pedigree have in its genes. Pedigrees are domestic cats which have been selectively bred. That is why people like me find these sorts of questions so frustrating and pointless.


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## raggie doll (Sep 16, 2011)

Simplysardonic is right you need to leave her in a room you don't enter that often, cats become more aggressive being put in a cage for a long period of time, also if you let her wander around one of the rooms put a blanket out for her\him they start to feel less anxious.

Breed wise she is mostly likely a mix breed/moggy, also depends on her actual markings and colour of eyes.


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## gemcml (Aug 15, 2011)

There's that word again! - Pedigree! Maybe I have missed something on here as I am really confused as to how pedigrees keep coming into it. 

I don't understand why anyone would wonder if there was ever pedigree in their cats parentage as it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference. Breeds I can understand, but not pedigree. Maybe it's just me as pedigrees don't mean much to me, yes they're beautiful but so are most cats. I was just after family pets/companions so a piece of paper stating it was pedigree wouldn't mean much to me personally. But surely if someone really wanted a pedigree they would buy one! 

As it goes for the OP he was asking what breed is this cat? Even if it were clearly a particular breed it still wouldn't make her a pedigree, I'm sure the Op knows this, and not at any point did they ask is this cat a pedigree!? They questioned the breed.

Anyway, OP I hope the cat is doing well


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Where cats are concerned breed/pedigree are pretty much the same thing. If you want to be pedantic about semantics then replace every time I say pedigree with the word breed and the answer would be the same. Domestic cats are not mixed breed cats, they have been around for thousands of years, whereas the cats belonging to specific breeds have been around for a couple of hundred only.


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## sarelis (Aug 29, 2011)

Well I think she has a Siamese look about her, lovely pretty face. Good luck with her & well done for taking her in, I hope she can re-gain her trust in humans through your care. Do you have any more pics by any chance?


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Oh, yes, I see what you mean looking at this picture of a Supreme UK Imperial Grand Premier Siamese cat. They could almost be twins - not!


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> Oh, yes, I see what you mean looking at this picture of a Supreme UK Imperial Grand Premier Siamese cat. They could almost be twins - not!


The wedgeheads are such funny looking dudes, even by my own funny looking cat standards!


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> The wedgeheads are such funny looking dudes, even by my own funny looking cat standards!


Wonderful personalities, though.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Sacremist said:


> Where cats are concerned breed/pedigree are pretty much the same thing. If you want to be pedantic about semantics then replace every time I say pedigree with the word breed and the answer would be the same. Domestic cats are not mixed breed cats, they have been around for thousands of years, whereas the cats belonging to specific breeds have been around for a couple of hundred only.


But that's where it gets confusing, because people will say "It's not a breed because it doesn't have papers" and others will say "only a pedigree has papers, but it can be x, y or z breed and not have papers", so there IS a delineation between breed and pedigree. At least in some minds. And in practicalities, lots of people let their pure bred cat (papers or not) wander, so they mix with other neighborhood cats, resulting in kittens who have recognizable breed/pedigree/pure bred traits.

I know only a tiny little bit about any of this breeding stuff, for dogs or cats, but it seems to be pretty much the same with both. They all came from common ancestors, and people manipulated genetics to produce desireable traits. I suppose the main difference is in amount of time for most. Dogs have, for the most part, been purpose bred for far longer.


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## gemcml (Aug 15, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> Where cats are concerned breed/pedigree are pretty much the same thing. If you want to be pedantic about semantics then replace every time I say pedigree with the word breed and the answer would be the same. Domestic cats are not mixed breed cats, they have been around for thousands of years, whereas the cats belonging to specific breeds have been around for a couple of hundred only.


I wasn't aware that pedigree and breed were the same thing. I'm not a cat expert, I'm just a cat lover! Reason I probably don't know is probably because I don't really care enough to look into 'cat politics'  A cat is a cat to me personally. As the owner of 2 beautiful moggies (about to come 3) having never owned any breeds of cat how would I know or why would it truly matter to me?

But again I will quote what i said before!... *Nobody said the cat IS a pedigree Siamese! Just that she LOOKS like she has some Siamese traits.*
... Yes that is meaningless, but you still cannot deny that fact because of it. 
Having said that this could also be down to the fact that she looks slim in the face due to being underweight. And the blue eyes could be down to the camera flash so there is no telling.

As long as the OP isn't going around saying they found a stray Siamese, or that the cat that they're taking care of is a Siamese cross or something I don't see why anyone should have a problem with it!? I believe the OP's question was do you think the cat looks like it has some Siamese traits. Which evidently, was phrased wrongly!

In all honesty I feel quite sorry for the newbie who has done their first post and is already having to watch their wording!!!!!


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

dagny0823 said:


> But that's where it gets confusing, because people will say "It's not a breed because it doesn't have papers" and others will say "only a pedigree has papers, but it can be x, y or z breed and not have papers", so there IS a delineation between breed and pedigree. At least in some minds. And in practicalities, lots of people let their pure bred cat (papers or not) wander, so they mix with other neighborhood cats, resulting in kittens who have recognizable breed/pedigree/pure bred traits.
> 
> I know only a tiny little bit about any of this breeding stuff, for dogs or cats, but it seems to be pretty much the same with both. They all came from common ancestors, and people manipulated genetics to produce desireable traits. I suppose the main difference is in amount of time for most. Dogs have, for the most part, been purpose bred for far longer.


Well, with this I cannot argue. Yes, it is entirely possible that some domestic cats might accidentally mate with a pedigree. It's very rare, though. Cat breeders are not like some dog breeders, it is not easy getting hold of a pedigree breed on the active register so it is not easy becoming a registered breeder. The GCCF rules appear much tighter than the Kennel Clubs. It's very rare that a registered breeder's breeding queens or toms escape. They are also very careful where they place cats.

Obviously, some slip through the net and cats, which are not neutered, may be allowed outside and become pregnant or impregnate a domestic cat. However, how often do you see GCCF recognised breeds of cat left wandering the streets? I've never seen any. And the reality is that most people have no real idea of what the different breeds look like. I was in the vets this morning and someone said of my cat, "Oh, look, a long-haired Siamese.". There's no such thing as a long-haired Siamese. He's a darned Birman for goodness sake. Other than pointing and blue eyes, they bear no resemblance to a Siamese whatsoever.

Even the short-haired, colour-pointed cats people mistake for Breed Club recognised Siamese (known in the States as Apple Heads) are not recognised in the UK as an official breed. There is a movement to have it recognised but until it is, then it remains unclassified.

If I was going to say which breed the OPs cat resembles, then I would have to say it bears a small likeness to the foreign type breeds, in particular, the Burmese. However, this cat is clearly very thin and under-nourished. Any cat so thin would appear to have a slightly angular face. I would like to see how it looks once it is back to good health with some meat on its bones. It's quite possible, with a fuller face, it's features would be less prominent and so lose that Burmese type face. The Burmese can be fat muscular little buggers and the still have those prominent cheek bones and almond shaped, yellow eyes.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

gemcml said:


> But again I will quote what i said before!... *Nobody said the cat IS a pedigree Siamese! Just that she LOOKS like she has some Siamese traits.*
> ...
> 
> In all honesty I feel quite sorry for the newbie who has done their first post and is already having to watch their wording!!!!!


Yes, I can deny that so-called fact, it looks nothing like a bloody Siamese.:mad2:

If the newbie can't handle other people having opinions when they post on a forum maybe they should consider whether or not this is the right place for them.


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## gemcml (Aug 15, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> Yes, I can deny that so-called fact, *it looks nothing like a bloody Siamese.*:mad2:
> 
> If the newbie *can't handle other people having opinions when they post on a forum maybe they should consider whether or not this is the right place for them*.


In your opinion! ...Not that i disagree. I do think the face looks very slim and the eyes look blue which could be down to other factors as i said above if you had read it! The cat looks in very poor health to be able to tell  plus the photo isn't exactly great quality to even tell if its a tabby, tortie or torbie.

But then others have said stuff about Siamese tabby pointers etc (which I'd never heard of before ) but that obviously is their opinion of possibilities.

For the op to put a cat in a cage and not even put a blanket down says they're probably not very knowledgeable about cats full stop.

Its all very well saying about the OP shouldn't come onto a forum if he can't handle others opinions. But you seem to be in the same boat there by arguing with others who's opinion differs from your own. My opinion doesn't even differ from yours to that matter. I was just making the point that if someone, anyone has a cat, found stray or rescued that may look a bit... I dunno...Bengal, siamese, Persian whatever and they were to say "hmmm they look like they may have a bit of _______ in them somewhere, don't you think?" so long as they aren't trying to pass them off as something they're not I don't see why curiosity of a cats history should bother anyone! That's all I am trying to say.


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## jenny armour (Feb 28, 2010)

eziofirenze said:


> Hi,
> 
> I was wondering if you guys could help me determine what kind of breed this cat is.
> 
> ...


i bet you wish you hadnt asked


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

How IS the cat, by the way? Settling in? Gaining some weight? We haven't heard from the OP since this discussion got rolling. I for one would love to see some pics of the poor sad paws on the road to recovery now that he/she's got a dedicated slave or two


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

gemcml said:


> In your opinion! ...
> 
> Its all very well saying about the OP shouldn't come onto a forum if he can't handle others opinions. But you seem to be in the same boat there by arguing with others who's opinion differs from your own. ...say.


You only have to look at the picture of a recognised Siamese to know they don't look the same, you would have to blind to think they did.

Why am I in the same boat? You brought up the OPs feelings about people having opinions, I'm not the one whinging about it, you are! However, I don't believe it is the OP having problems with other people having opinions, it's your sensibilities that are hurting that's why you raised the issue in the first place. Incidentally, I never said the OP should not come to a forum only that she should consider whether or not it is right for her if she cannot handle other people having opinions. There are thousands of people on this forum, we can't all agree with each other 100% of the time, so we have to accept it and not come on whinging about it just because you can't think of anything better to say? Why even involve the OP in the first place? You are clearly the one with the problem or did it make you feel better shifting the attention from yourself?


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## gemcml (Aug 15, 2011)

I read half of that and gave up :lol:

I didnt come on here to argue, never have actually. I just gave an opinion from a cat lover not a cat expert as already said. Ever so sorry that it conflicts with your own opinion!!  don't really have anything to say without continuing to repeat myself over and over.

If you don't mind I'm going to get back to having a more interesting and sophisticated conversation with my one year old!


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> The wedgeheads are such funny looking dudes, even by my own funny looking cat standards!


Hey you, watch it, I have four 'wedgeheads', all stunningly beautiful


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## jay_bird (May 24, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> There are thousands of people on this forum, we can't all agree with each other 100% of the time, so we have to accept it and not come on whinging about it just because you can't think of anything better to say? Why even involve the OP in the first place? You are clearly the one with the problem or did it make you feel better shifting the attention from yourself?


I know exactly what you mean. I hit the reply button and just sit back and wait for the whingers to disagree with me. They are a bit like a dripping tap, I am learning just to ignore them. :aureola:


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

gemcml said:


> I read half of that and gave up :lol:
> 
> I didnt come on here to argue, never have actually. I just gave an opinion from a cat lover not a cat expert as already said. Ever so sorry that it conflicts with your own opinion!!  don't really have anything to say without continuing to repeat myself over and over.
> 
> If you don't mind I'm going to get back to having a more interesting and sophisticated conversation with my one year old!


Insults! And you are calling me immature? Start getting personal and I'll report you to a mod.


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## jay_bird (May 24, 2011)

gemcml said:


> I read half of that and gave up :lol:
> 
> If you don't mind I'm going to get back to having a more interesting and sophisticated conversation with my one year old!


Now that's what I call a mature and sensible reply. Maybe you should inlist the help of your one year old when it comes to replying like a normal balanced adult.


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

Sacremist said:


> Yes, I can deny that so-called fact, it looks nothing like a bloody Siamese.:mad2:


Totally agree ^^^^ I have 4 Siamese and Orientals sitting right next to me and can see no resemblance whatsoever to the OP's pic. Mind you, the picture the OP posted is quite poor quality, dark etc, so I'd be hard pushed to make a guess about the breed other than a lovely mog


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

gemcml said:


> I read half of that and gave up :lol:
> 
> I didnt come on here to argue, never have actually. I just gave an opinion from a cat lover not a cat expert as already said. Ever so sorry that it conflicts with your own opinion!!  don't really have anything to say without continuing to repeat myself over and over.
> 
> If you don't mind I'm going to get back to having a more interesting and sophisticated conversation with my one year old!


Dear oh dear, a difference of opinion, out come the toys, woosh, thrown from the pram and a personal insult thrown to boot. Totally unnecessary 

People can have a difference of opinion without resorting to this. Surely that's how we learn


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

This had been a sensible and civilised debate up to this point,but there's always one who has to lower the tone and start with personal insults because she cannot get her own way. You should be ashamed of yourself Gem!


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## sarelis (Aug 29, 2011)

Bloody hell just looked back in on this thread & it's like handbags at dawn! Is nobody allowed to have an opinion anymore without getting shot down in flames? The OP only asked what people thought of a cat's breeding. Sod this I'm off, some people here really need to grow up


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

sarelis said:


> Bloody hell just looked back in on this thread & it's like handbags at dawn! Is nobody allowed to have an opinion anymore without getting shot down in flames? The OP only asked what people thought of a cat's breeding. Sod this I'm off, some people here really need to grow up


Another one who resorts to personal attacks and insults.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

gemcml said:


> But I will just leave it at that now. Nothing more I can say than what i have already!


I think that's for the best. I certainly don't want to debate with people who can't respond without getting personal.


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## sarelis (Aug 29, 2011)

And how have I insulted or personally attacked anyone? Take a look back through the thread & examine the posts, the tone is totally unnecessary. So many innocent threads on here seem to turn into sh*tfests, it's a shame.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

sarelis said:


> And how have I insulted or personally attacked anyone? Take a look back through the thread & examine the posts, the tone is totally unnecessary. So many innocent threads on here seem to turn into sh*tfests, it's a shame.


I agree but telling people to grow up is a personal attack. You are drawing into question their maturity and that is rude.:thumbdown:


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## sarelis (Aug 29, 2011)

If people don't want their maturity questioned, then they should conduct themselves in a mature manner. Just sayin':wink:


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2011)

The OP asked for people's opinions on what breed you thought her cat was, why you have all felt to argue on this thread about what is pedigree/moggies and what is right or wrong with them etc etc. 

To the OP i have no idea what the breed is but it doesn't look well, you need to get it checked over by a vet, it is not the best picture, do you have any more pictures so we can have a better look??? 

Sorry about the arguing on your thread and people going off topic, i hope you stay on here as a member and we can help you.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

sarelis said:


> If people don't want their maturity questioned, then they should conduct themselves in a mature manner. Just sayin':wink:


Personal attacks are the only immature act I see here. Most people were having reasoned debate. Lowering the tone by getting personal reveals more about you than anyone else.


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## sarelis (Aug 29, 2011)

Really dear? I have only made 4 posts, one where I gave my opinion (which YOU gave a sarky reply to), and 3 expressing my disappointment that an innocent thread has been turned into yet another sh*tfest. Not wishing to add any more to the frankly nasty & argumentative discussion, I will post no more. 
To the OP, I hope the cat recovers her health & trust & you have many happy years of companionship with her AND I still think she has a Siamese look about her, she is a pretty girl.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

KathrynH said:


> The OP asked for people's opinions on what breed you thought her cat was, why you have all felt to argue on this thread about what is pedigree/moggies and what is right or wrong with them etc etc.
> 
> To the OP i have no idea what the breed is but it doesn't look well, you need to get it checked over by a vet, it is not the best picture, do you have any more pictures so we can have a better look???
> 
> Sorry about the arguing on your thread and people going off topic, i hope you stay on here as a member and we can help you.


I agree, the problem is that people take exception to someone saying it is a moggie. Any discussion like this is bound to descend into moggie versus pedigree/breed whenever someone asks this type of question because there are always going to be different opinions. The discussion only descends into personal insults when someone runs out of arguments to put forward.

Besides, however this debate may have started, it is an open forum in which people have the right to express their views provided they don't make it personal. Most debates go off topic somewhat, this is no exception, but we have the right to take it off topic if something someone says means you have to in order to clarify your point.


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> I agree, the problem is that people take exception to someone saying it is a moggie. Any discussion like this is bound to descend into moggie versus pedigree/breed whenever someone asks this type of question because there are always going to be different opinions. The discussion only descends into personal insults when someone runs out of arguments to put forward.
> 
> Besides, however this debate may have started, it is an open forum in which people have the right to express their views provided they don't make it personal. Most debates go off topic somewhat, this is no exception, but we have the right to take it off topic if something someone says means you have to in order to clarify your point.


But it has got personal and always does get personal and there is no need for it, it is not what the OP asked or wanted on here i am sure.

Who honestly cares if your cat is a moggie or a pedigree, i have 2 moggies i do not get offended by the word, i love my cats they are my babies and that is all that should matter to be honest.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

sarelis said:


> Really dear? I have only made 4 posts, one where I gave my opinion (which YOU gave a sarky reply to), and 3 expressing my disappointment that an innocent thread has been turned into yet another sh*tfest. Not wishing to add any more to the frankly nasty & argumentative discussion, I will post no more.
> To the OP, I hope the cat recovers her health & trust & you have many happy years of companionship with her AND I still think she has a Siamese look about her, she is a pretty girl.


You have every right to think it looks Siamese, just as I have every right to say you clearly do not know what a Siamese cat actually is and you received a sarky response because I find it incredulous that anyone with 20/20 vision cannot see from the picture I posted of an excellent example of a Siamese, a Supreme winner no less, cannot see the OPs cat does not look anything like a Siamese.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> You have every right to think it looks Siamese, just as I have every right to say you clearly do not know what a Siamese cat actually is and you received a sarky response because I find it incredulous that anyone with 20/20 vision cannot see from the picture I posted of an excellent example of a Siamese, a Supreme winner no less, cannot see the OPs cat does not look anything like a Siamese.


I'm much more into the appleheads than the wedges.

Pointsish with cream and brown = Siamese Sacremist. Please learn this!


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

It's very interesting that the people who are now condemning personal attacks and insults are the very ones who have resorted to this themselves in the past!


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> *I'm much more into the appleheads than the wedges.*
> 
> Pointsish with cream and brown = Siamese Sacremist. Please learn this!


Each to their own


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

KathrynH said:


> But it has got personal and always does get personal and there is no need for it, it is not what the OP asked or wanted on here i am sure.
> 
> Who honestly cares if your cat is a moggie or a pedigree, i have 2 moggies i do not get offended by the word, i love my cats they are my babies and that is all that should matter to be honest.


But I am not the one who made it personal. I was debating. No-one has attacked the OP. I love pedigrees and moggies alike, I have both living in my home. You cannot get away from the fact the OP asked what breed of cat is this? The rest of us are debating that question and giving our reasons for our opinions. Why are you trying to turn this into an argument over what we can or cannot debate?


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## hope (May 25, 2011)

i would say the breed is (very unhappy cat ) it looks scared and mortified to be in that cage where is its water? where is its food? and where is its blanket . that picture has made me feel sick


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Ianthi said:


> It's very interesting that the people who are now condemning personal attacks and insults are the very ones who have resorted to this themselves in the past!


And been pulled up about it so returning the favour.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

dougal22 said:


> Each to their own


I could be wrong but I think Gloworm is joking.


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> But I am not the one who made it personal. I was debating. No-one has attacked the OP. I love pedigrees and moggies alike, I have both living in my home. You cannot get away from the fact the OP asked what breed of cat is this? The rest of us are debating that question and giving our reasons for our opinions. Why are you trying to turn this into an argument over what we can or cannot debate?


I am not trying to turn it into an argument , i am not having a go at you. I am just asking for people to answer the question the OP asked instead of arguing.

The thread has gone off topic and arguments have been started I was just saying there was no need for it on the question that was asked by OP.

And I also answered the OP and said I hope that it gets to a vet etc, i did not come onto argue.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> I could be wrong but I think Gloworm is joking.


Well, I dont dislike any breed but personally I prefer the applhead look to the wedgehead look, and when I personally think of Siamese I think of the applehead face shape, so I can see how someone could look at the first pic and not be struck by the obvious disparity between the wedgehead Siamese and the cat in the pic.

Not that I think the cat in the pic is Siamese.


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2011)

Ianthi said:


> It's very interesting that the people who are now condemning personal attacks and insults are the very ones who have resorted to this themselves in the past!


Sorry who are you talking about?


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

Sacremist said:


> I could be wrong but I think Gloworm is joking.


Me too, hence the 'wink face'.

But, it does no harm keeping GW in check


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

dougal22 said:


> Me too, hence the 'wink face'.
> 
> But, it does no harm keeping GW in check


I have been VERY restrained Dougal22! You are so immature, picking on me!


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

KathrynH said:


> I am not trying to turn it into an argument , i am not having a go at you. I am just asking for people to answer the question the OP asked instead of arguing.
> 
> The thread has gone off topic and arguments have been started I was just saying there was no need for it on the question that was asked by OP.
> 
> And I also answered the OP and said I hope that it gets to a vet etc, i did not come onto argue.


Okay, fair enough. But it does feel like you are trying to stop free debate. It only turned from debate into arguments towards the end and other people coming on stirring it and telling us to shut up just inflames the situation and by that I am referring to both you and Ianthi.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> I'm much more into the *appleheads than the wedges.*
> 
> Pointsish with cream and brown = Siamese Sacremist. Please learn this!


Can I just ask what this means, are apple headed Siamese the ones known as 'traditional'? I love both types but have seen different breeders websites that show quite a variance in head shapes among the breed


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

dougal22 said:


> Me too, hence the 'wink face'.
> 
> But, it does no harm keeping GW in check


Sorry, I'm responding on my phone and I sometimes miss the faces. LOL!


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> Okay, fair enough. But it does feel like you are trying to stop free debate. It only turned from debate into arguments towards the end and other people coming on stirring it and telling us to shut up just inflames the situation and by that I am referring to both you and Ianthi.


I am not saying you can not discuss stuff on a thread but it has got personal on here, and that is not a dig at you either. 

I will leave you too it then, i have answered the OP so that is all i can do.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

KathrynH said:


> I am not saying you can not discuss stuff on a thread but it has got personal on here, and that is not a dig at you either.
> 
> I will leave you too it then, i have answered the OP so that is all i can do.


Okay, sorry, Kath.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> Can I just ask what this means, are apple headed Siamese the ones known as 'traditional'? I love both types but have seen different breeders websites that show quite a variance in head shapes among the breed


I believe so 

applehead samese - Google Search Like this lol

Same with traditional persians, not so much of a smoosh face.


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> I have been VERY restrained Dougal22! *You are so immature, picking on me*!


How very dare you!!!


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> Can I just ask what this means, are apple headed Siamese the ones known as 'traditional'? I love both types but have seen different breeders websites that show quite a variance in head shapes among the breed


I think they are sometimes called traditional also old type is used as well. The picture I posted earlier is the only type recognised by breed clubs affiliated to the cat fancies for now anyway.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> I think they are sometimes called traditional also old type is used as well. The picture I posted earlier is the only type recognised by breed clubs affiliated to the cat fancies for now anyway.


Is that just for showing or can you not even register a litter of old type Siamese now?


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Is that just for showing or can you not even register a litter of old type Siamese now?


On that, I'm afraid I'm not certain.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> On that, I'm afraid I'm not certain.


I assume its just showing as if a cat has a pedigree history etc surely you can regsiter it even if not typey... Hmmm....

I know my breeders mention that many of their preferred cats (longer face) do not do well in the show ring (though they do have champions so clearly do have some smooshed ones) but they can still be registered. I assume its the same for Siamese as well as Persian but I am really not sure.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Just to add, I know when breeding Asians sometimes the progeny can look too Burmese and they call them variants. Variants can be registered as a variant and not shown, so it's quite possible this might be the case with the appleheads. However, I do know that Siamese breeders I have met are quite adamant the applehead is not a Siamese but a colour-pointed domestic shorthair. It might just be the ones I've met though. LOL!


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

I would certainly consider them both 'Siamese' from what I have read about the origins of the breed etc.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Thanks for clearing that up, have to say I prefer the traditional type slightly over the wedgies, our tabby point was more traditional looking, she looked very much like this


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

The modern Siamese certainly originated from the apple heads, but there must have been gene mutation along the way because they are now so different in type, they certainly look like a different cat. If I were a traditional type Siamese breeder, I would consider continuing the breed but under a change of name so as not to conflict with the recognised Siamese breed. They might stand more chance of getting them recognised if they took a different path.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> The modern Siamese certainly originated from the apple heads, but there must have been gene mutation along the way because they are now so different in type, they certainly look like a different cat. If I were a traditional type Siamese breeder, I would consider continuing the breed but under a change of name so as not to conflict with the recognised Siamese breed. They might stand more chance of getting them recognised if they took a different path.


I imagine its a bit of a case of 'we had the name first!' as I would probably feel the same if the breed originated from the more round headed ones lol!

And yeah something clearly has changed as they really are very different cats!


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> I imagine its a bit of a case of 'we had the name first!' as I would probably feel the same if the breed originated from the more round headed ones lol!
> 
> And yeah something clearly has changed as they really are very different cats!


Agreed, I would probably feel the same too. Birman breeders are quite angry about kitted Ragdolls being recognised because their is so little difference between the two. I love both but I can see their point.

Still, someone has to give in and I would say that modern Siamese breeders are currently holding all the cards.

Shh! Don't tell Dougal but I kinda prefer the appleheads too.


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> Thanks for clearing that up, have to say I prefer the traditional type slightly over the wedgies, our tabby point was more traditional looking, she looked very much like this


I love this cat absolutely gorgeous, my favourite siamese is these.









There gorgeous :001_wub::001_wub:


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

KathrynH said:


> I love this cat absolutely gorgeous, my favourite siamese is these.
> 
> View attachment 74426
> 
> ...


Ooh yes, I think it was the film 'The Incredible Journey's Siamese that made me fall in love with the breed, one day I will have a lovely, well bred Seal point Siamese to call me her own


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> Agreed, I would probably feel the same too. Birman breeders are quite angry about kitted Ragdolls being recognised because their is so little difference between the two. I love both but I can see their point.
> 
> Still, someone has to give in and I would say that modern Siamese breeders are currently holding all the cards.
> 
> Shh! Don't tell Dougal but I kinda prefer the appleheads too.


I am soooooo telling!

Do you mean mitted raggies? So they are very similar to Birmans, and Birman breeders arent happy that they are considered ragdolls?


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> Ooh yes, I think it was the film 'The Incredible Journey's Siamese that made me fall in love with the breed, one day I will have a lovely, well bred Seal point Siamese to call me her own


Yes and me hun.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> I am soooooo telling!
> 
> Do you mean mitted raggies? So they are very similar to Birmans, and Birman breeders arent happy that they are considered ragdolls?


But don't Raggies have the distinctive floppiness of the breed to differentiate them?
Plus I (& I admit I'm no expert!) always think of Birmans as being more heavyset than Raggies


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> But don't Raggies have the distinctive floppiness of the breed to differentiate them?
> Plus I (& I admit I'm no expert!) always think of Birmans as being more heavyset than Raggies


Hmmmm well, the floppyness I think is a bit of a, well, not fallacy as such, but its not as different to other cats in my experience. My raggie is floppy, but so is mush... PLUS not all raggies are floppy, same as with other cats! lol

Apparently the story about the floppyness of ragdolls is fabricated anyway (along with their supposed creation as a result of a car accident) and I think this 'floppyness' can cause issues with them in terms of people get them expecting them to not do anything when picked up. Apparently someone threw them across the room on TV (Blue Peter??) a while ago to show how floppy they are :S


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> I am soooooo telling!
> 
> Do you mean mitted raggies? So they are very similar to Birmans, and Birman breeders arent happy that they are considered ragdolls?


Noooooooo! Don't tell! LOL!

Yes, I do mean mitted raggies. I've had Birmans for 10 years but I sometimes struggle to see the difference. I know they have a different face type, that Birmans are more diamond shaped faces but I really have to scrutinise at times. Birman breeders are furious about it.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

I think a lot of cats that aren't the more obvious ones look similar lmao, I dont think I could tell you the diff between a lot of them given the chance  LIke Siberians and NFC (and to an extend MC but I can see the ear tufty bits)


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> But don't Raggies have the distinctive floppiness of the breed to differentiate them?
> Plus I (& I admit I'm no expert!) always think of Birmans as being more heavyset than Raggies


Problem is, not all Raggies have the flop and some Birmans do have the flop. It's like with the Birman 'huff', some display it and others don't.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Hmmmm well, the floppyness I think is a bit of a, well, not fallacy as such, but its not as different to other cats in my experience. My raggie is floppy, but so is mush... PLUS not all raggies are floppy, same as with other cats! lol
> 
> *Apparently the story about the floppyness of ragdolls is fabricated anyway (along with their supposed creation as a result of a car accident)* and I think this 'floppyness' can cause issues with them in terms of people get them expecting them to not do anything when picked up. Apparently someone threw them across the room on TV (Blue Peter??) a while ago to show how floppy they are :S


I always wondered about that, couldn't see any credibility in a cat inheriting its parents' injuries somehow


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Apparently that was all exposed as lie or something :S I cant remember what i read, I should try and find it again. And yeah itd be a pretty snazz car accident to affect the genes of the cat!


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> I think a lot of cats that aren't the more obvious ones look similar lmao, I dont think I could tell you the diff between a lot of them given the chance  LIke Siberians and NFC (and to an extend MC but I can see the ear tufty bits)


I can tell an MC from an NFC, most NFCs I've seen have a very distinctive jaw. It's cats from the Oriental classes I have problems with, except Siamese, but some of the others just become a blur in my mind.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Sacremist said:


> Problem is, not all Raggies have the flop and some Birmans do have the flop. It's like with the Birman 'huff', some display it and others don't.


Lord I know that Birman huff - Minnii is an absolute expert at it  - but she flops too! Coda (RagaMuffin) is a definite flopper though - you can hold her anywhichway and she just relaxes and flops!


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

spid said:


> Lord I know that Birman huff - Minnii is an absolute expert at it  - but she flops too! Coda (RagaMuffin) is a definite flopper though - you can hold her anywhichway and she just relaxes and flops!


Lol! Some of mine huff more than others but it is very distinctive. I once mentioned the huff to another Birman owner. She had never been told about it and when her girl kept doing it, she rushed her off to the vets. Vet didn't know about it and carried out a lot of expensive tests. I told her she had wasted her money, huffing was as natural as breathing to most Birmans. They don't half give you the evil eye when they do it too. Lol!


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Sacremist said:


> They don't half give you the evil eye when they do it too. Lol!


Oh yes - those old blueys ought to be classed as a military weapon the way they bore into you - I can feel them on the back of my head when she is cross with me, boring into my brain!


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## Faerie Queene (Dec 30, 2008)

Ok - someone has got to explain to me - what on Earth, is the 'Birman Huff' ?


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

spid said:


> Oh yes - those old blueys ought to be classed as a military weapon the way they bore into you - I can feel them on the back of my head when she is cross with me, boring into my brain!


I've had a lot of that over the last few days. Chino's been giving me evils because I took him for a dental.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Faerie Queene said:


> Ok - someone has got to explain to me - what on Earth, is the 'Birman Huff' ?


I'll try to explain. Imagine blowing air through your teeth as if in disgust, you know that: Ffff! sound accompanied by a heavy disgusted sigh, that is what the Birman huff is like. Those that do it, which is most of them but not all, generally do it when they are unhappy about something rather than growl or wail.

As soon as I lift my bum out if a chair, I can guarantee a cat will immediately sit in my place. When I come back and move them so I can sit down, I'm generally huffed at.


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## jenny armour (Feb 28, 2010)

Sacremist said:


> Agreed, I would probably feel the same too. Birman breeders are quite angry about kitted Ragdolls being recognised because their is so little difference between the two. I love both but I can see their point.
> 
> Still, someone has to give in and I would say that modern Siamese breeders are currently holding all the cards.
> 
> Shh! Don't tell Dougal but I kinda prefer the appleheads too.


yet actually mitted ragdolls do have a different marking on their body to the birman as well as different ear set and shaped head.


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## jenny armour (Feb 28, 2010)

generally wegies literally have a wedge shaped face where the coonies face or jaw is more square. i have a nfc book here where it tells you the difference between the two breeds


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

jenny armour said:


> yet actually mitted ragdolls do have a different marking on their body to the birman as well as different ear set and shaped head.


What kind of marking? I know they say the head shape is different. How does the ear set differ?


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Sacremist said:


> I agree, the problem is that people take exception to someone saying it is a moggie. Any discussion like this is bound to descend into moggie versus pedigree/breed whenever someone asks this type of question because there are always going to be different opinions. The discussion only descends into personal insults when someone runs out of arguments to put forward.
> 
> Besides, however this debate may have started, it is an open forum in which people have the right to express their views provided they don't make it personal. Most debates go off topic somewhat, this is no exception, but we have the right to take it off topic if something someone says means you have to in order to clarify your point.


I'm sorry. I feel slightly responsible here. I'm the one who kind of got the ball rolling, and my intention was not to set out the pot of gasoline to get kicked on the fire. I just noticed that the OP's question was not really getting answered very helpfully and it was a phenomenon I've noticed before. It seemed and still seems reductive to just say "it's a moggy", when the question clearly seeks a response that attempts to recognize some breed characteristics. That said, it's equally reductive to find or buy a moggy and hope desperately that it's a pedigree in disguise and search for the traits you want to see (which I get the impression is what some of you are fighting against when they answer similar questions).

My question was genuine, and it seems to be more of a sociological phenomenon in the nature of one's response to the pedigree/not-pedigree question. DNA testing would be the only truly objective way to answer any of these questions. So, please guys, no more personal attacks?  I'm feeling kind of bad for stirring up the pot when I really was more interested in healthy discussion and illumination.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Hopefully, the situation has diffused now. I just hope we don't get any more do-gooders coming on inflaming the situation with their snarky remarks which are neither helpful nor productive. Not meaning you BTW.  Don't worry about it, it doesn't take much for disputes to start on this forum.


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## jenny armour (Feb 28, 2010)

Sacremist said:


> What kind of marking? I know they say the head shape is different. How does the ear set differ?


not sure who has what regarding ear set but one of the breeds ears are set further forward than the other, the other sets higher on head.
regarding the markings. mitted raggies have a white chin or should have, for showing, and the white should go right down their tummy to the base of the tail, whereas birmans body colour is the same all over meaning no white on chin and tummy


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## jenny armour (Feb 28, 2010)

also birmans has all four white paws whereas mitted ragdolls have mittens on their front paws (hence the name mitted) and the back legs can be or should be white past their joint


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

jenny armour said:


> not sure who has what regarding ear set but one of the breeds ears are set further forward than the other, the other sets higher on head.
> regarding the markings. mitted raggies have a white chin or should have, for showing, and the white should go right down their tummy to the base of the tail, whereas birmans body colour is the same all over meaning no white on chin and tummy


Thanks for this, I'll take a closer look them.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Yes, looking at the pictures online I can see the White under the raggies chin, plus I think the raggy's ears are set higher on the head. My Birman's ears are more to the side. There's more doming across the skull.


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## jenny armour (Feb 28, 2010)

also birmans eyes are rounder and at one time bluer but they may have changed now


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## raggie doll (Sep 16, 2011)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Hmmmm well, the floppyness I think is a bit of a, well, not fallacy as such, but its not as different to other cats in my experience. My raggie is floppy, but so is mush... PLUS not all raggies are floppy, same as with other cats! lol
> 
> Apparently the story about the floppyness of ragdolls is fabricated anyway (along with their supposed creation as a result of a car accident) and I think this 'floppyness' can cause issues with them in terms of people get them expecting them to not do anything when picked up. Apparently someone threw them across the room on TV (Blue Peter??) a while ago to show how floppy they are :S


Well as a ragdoll owner i can tell you they are really floppy but this is a personality characteristic i think, they are not aggressive and very gentle. So they are quite happy to just flop in your arms.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

jenny armour said:


> also birmans eyes are rounder and at one time bluer but they may have changed now


I think eye shape in the Birman can vary according to colour of coat. I know that sounds silly but it really does. I remember reading it when I once read the breed standard. The eyes of the blues, for example, should have a sweet expression, but this is said only of the blues. The eye colour of lilacs is allowed to be paler I believe, probably because they are a dilute.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

TBH, I don't understand these confusions between these breeds. Perhaps it is just me though...

Before seeing NFC in the flesh, I couldn't understand how they were different to a MC. The most notable difference is the nose. NFC tend to be flatter/longer than the dipped nose of an MC with the square jaw. Sat next to each other, it is quite obvious which is which. 

As for Birmans and Ragdolls, Ragdolls have oval/oblique shaped eyes whilst Birmans have almost round. Birmans are also much smaller whilst still being stocky. I don't think I would ever confuse the two unless they are really really young but even then the size would give them away.


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## Faerie Queene (Dec 30, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faerie Queene 
Ok - someone has got to explain to me - what on Earth, is the 'Birman Huff' ?



Sacremist said:


> I'll try to explain. Imagine blowing air through your teeth as if in disgust, you know that: Ffff! sound accompanied by a heavy disgusted sigh, that is what the Birman huff is like. Those that do it, which is most of them but not all, generally do it when they are unhappy about something rather than growl or wail.
> 
> As soon as I lift my bum out if a chair, I can guarantee a cat will immediately sit in my place. When I come back and move them so I can sit down, I'm generally huffed at.


Thank you for the explanation.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

raggie doll said:


> Well as a ragdoll owner i can tell you they are really floppy but this is a personality characteristic i think, they are not aggressive and very gentle. So they are quite happy to just flop in your arms.


I have one too  , but I also have a floppy exotic.

All I am saying is not all raggies are floppy, not all of them have the same personalities, and some non ragdolls are floppy. So it can't be used to 'tell' a ragdoll from anything else


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

messyhearts said:


> TBH, I don't understand these confusions between these breeds. Perhaps it is just me though...
> 
> Before seeing NFC in the flesh, I couldn't understand how they were different to a MC. The most notable difference is the nose. NFC tend to be flatter/longer than the dipped nose of an MC with the square jaw. Sat next to each other, it is quite obvious which is which.
> 
> As for Birmans and Ragdolls, Ragdolls have oval/oblique shaped eyes whilst Birmans have almost round. Birmans are also much smaller whilst still being stocky. I don't think I would ever confuse the two unless they are really really young but even then the size would give them away.


Maybe you have a better eye for the detail.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

simplysardonic said:


> Can I just ask what this means, are apple headed Siamese the ones known as 'traditional'? I love both types but have seen different breeders websites that show quite a variance in head shapes among the breed


I prefer the "apple heads" as GW calls them. It is just personal preference. If I saw one that looked like the grand champ shown in the pic earlier, well, it looks a bit like an alien to me, looks a bit evil. But it is just a personal preference as I said.
I like cats with softer, more traditional faces, like the average moggie


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## Alaskacat (Aug 2, 2010)

Just a quick post to clarify that the traditional, or Old style of Siamese can be shown with GCCF, though are unlikely to be placed, they can be registered with GCCF and the Old-style Siamese Club is affiliated to the GCCF. 

The breed standard is the same as the modern "show" type as they are the same cats with the same bloodlines. I own both types and the only difference is the look of them. I understand that the the modern type Siamese has followed an interpretation of the Breed standard and the traditional type hasn't. Though I'm sure show Siamese breeders would clarify.

I have shown my Old Style Boy in Pedigree classes with GCCF and he received lovely comments, he lacks what is currently looked for and didn't receive a CC which is fair enough, but everyone made us feel welcome and he was very much admired. I can of course show him in Pedigree pet classes too if I wish.

I would welcome a seperate breed number for Traditional Siamese, but I think the arguement is that the pedigrees of old and new are so interlinked it would be impossible to determine who is old style and who is modern on paper, as it is only the look of the cat that determines it. My boy has show champions in his lines, he is just not modern looking enough to do well at shows. 

If the OP is in USA their cat could be Snowshoe or Snowshoe X, but I've not seen a Snowshoe of that type in a Pedigree Snowshoe in UK presently.


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## Panacea (Jul 19, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> Well, with this I cannot argue. Yes, it is entirely possible that some domestic cats might accidentally mate with a pedigree. It's very rare, though. Cat breeders are not like some dog breeders, it is not easy getting hold of a pedigree breed on the active register so it is not easy becoming a registered breeder. The GCCF rules appear much tighter than the Kennel Clubs. It's very rare that a registered breeder's breeding queens or toms escape. They are also very careful where they place cats.
> 
> Obviously, some slip through the net and cats, which are not neutered, may be allowed outside and become pregnant or impregnate a domestic cat. However, how often do you see GCCF recognised breeds of cat left wandering the streets? I've never seen any. And the reality is that most people have no real idea of what the different breeds look like. I was in the vets this morning and someone said of my cat, "Oh, look, a long-haired Siamese.". There's no such thing as a long-haired Siamese. He's a darned Birman for goodness sake. Other than pointing and blue eyes, they bear no resemblance to a Siamese whatsoever.
> *
> ...


I thought the old style Siamese was classed as a Thai Cat which has some of the same bloodlines as the modern day Siamese but became the Thai Cat in 2007. I may be wrong. I love them both but prefer a less extreme modern Siamese.



dougal22 said:


> Totally agree ^^^^ I have 4 Siamese and Orientals sitting right next to me and can see no resemblance whatsoever to the OP's pic. Mind you, the picture the OP posted is quite poor quality, dark etc, so I'd be hard pushed to make a guess about the breed other than a lovely mog


We've always had Siamese and Oriental cats, some pedigree and some not registered. I currently have two Caramel Tabby Orientals in my knee and a Blue Point Siamese but none of them are registered as such. They just are! I realise they have to be GCCF registered to be called that but I find that silly when they clearly are the breed I say.

Looking at the photo of the cat in question I'd say that it's a Siamese type or Siamese cross or even a Tonkinese. Maybe a seal tortie tabby point. Or something.

I'm more concerned about the cat though. How is she? Is she still with you? Has she seen a vet? Is she happy? Please reply :thumbup:


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## joee (Feb 18, 2011)

where are you from? i know someone who's lost there cat that looks alot like that


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## joee (Feb 18, 2011)

eziofirenze said:


> Hi,
> 
> I was wondering if you guys could help me determine what kind of breed this cat is.
> 
> ...


where abouts are you?


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

joee said:


> where abouts are you?


it might help to instead state where you are? I believe the OP is aborad, not sure why I am thinking this.


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## Misi (Jul 13, 2009)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> it might help to instead state where you are? I believe the OP is aborad, not sure why I am thinking this.


Could be the "Firenze" bit in his name... That'd be Florence. More my way than yours. He seems to have legged it, anyway


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Misi said:


> Could be the "Firenze" bit in his name... That'd be Florence. More my way than yours. He seems to have legged it, anyway


I didnt want to say Italy as 'Ezio Firenze' is a character from 'Assassins Creed' set in Italy. But, I imagine its just as likely to be an actual name as well!


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## Misi (Jul 13, 2009)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> I didnt want to say Italy as 'Ezio Firenze' is a character from 'Assassins Creed' set in Italy. But, I imagine its just as likely to be an actual name as well!


Oh! I had no idea


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## joee (Feb 18, 2011)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> it might help to instead state where you are? I believe the OP is aborad, not sure why I am thinking this.


That doesn't really matter get a answer either way


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

joee said:


> That doesn't really matter get a answer either way


Or not.

The OP hasn't been on for a while, but I am sure if they are in an area where a microchip is used, and your friend chose to microchip their cat, and it is your friends cat, they will get it back.


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## joee (Feb 18, 2011)

No it wern't microchiped


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

joee said:


> No it wern't microchiped


Well if it 'wasn't' micro chipped then you friend has very little chance of getting their cat back, sadly, as how are the old owners going to locate your friend.

The cat in the picture has clearly been outside and stray for a very long time, as it is extra ordinarily under nourished. it could look like an entirely different cat once it has meat on him.

As I said, the OP has not been on for a long time so I suggest your friend go the usual route of finding their cat


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## joee (Feb 18, 2011)

they are thought i would just ask as it did look like it


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## jenny armour (Feb 28, 2010)

messyhearts said:


> TBH, I don't understand these confusions between these breeds. Perhaps it is just me though...
> 
> Before seeing NFC in the flesh, I couldn't understand how they were different to a MC. The most notable difference is the nose. NFC tend to be flatter/longer than the dipped nose of an MC with the square jaw. Sat next to each other, it is quite obvious which is which.
> 
> As for Birmans and Ragdolls, Ragdolls have oval/oblique shaped eyes whilst Birmans have almost round. Birmans are also much smaller whilst still being stocky. I don't think I would ever confuse the two unless they are really really young but even then the size would give them away.


if you look at a nfc's profile you will see that they do not have a nose break and that it is completely straight


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