# ZMy dog is fine on the lead until I get to the park....



## Lois' owner (Apr 26, 2011)

Hi guys, I'm getting my 6 month old bitch quite good on the lead, when we are walking around residentials areas etc, but when we get to the park, she turns into a raving lunatic. 
I took her for a walk this morning and was yanking on her chain every time she sniffed and went crazy over other dogs and pulled like mad. maybe to much 

I've been reading this book Dog training for dummies and apparantly she is high on the prey scale and not as high but above average on the pack scale

so she has high prey instincts and pack instincts.


But I think I might have been over 'checking' her (this is the work the book uses for yanking her lead)

Do I need to buy a choke chain? or the ones with the sharp barb wire type collors? she is a right handful, and I want her to lose the prey instincts when she is with me.

I need help I really want a brilliant relationship with my dog hense me reading books and doing research online etc.

Any help will be greatly appreciated:001_smile:


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

My dog walks to heel on pavements and has a flexi lead for the park, so that he can run freely. We mostly go to farm land and he can run free. 
I can't imagine anyone who loves their dog would ever want to inflict pain on it with a collar like that.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Lois' owner said:


> Hi guys, I'm getting my 6 month old bitch quite good on the lead, when we are walking around residentials areas etc, but when we get to the park, she turns into a raving lunatic.
> I took her for a walk this morning and was yanking on her chain every time she sniffed and went crazy over other dogs and pulled like mad. maybe to much
> 
> I've been reading this book Dog training for dummies and apparantly she is high on the prey scale and not as high but above average on the pack scale
> ...


Please don't even think about it. Choke chains are known to cause trachea damage, no decent trainer would use one. As to the prong collar, they should be banned.

Any dog would get excited when they get to the park. Mine walk like a dream on the lead, all 23 stone of them, but I would never be able to walk them on the heath like that, except on the way back to the car.

What you need is either a flexi lead, though please don't use it on the streets, not even locked in, or a long leash for recall training. What is her recall like? If she is safe off lead then that is where she should be, if not a long training leash and some recall training is what is needed.

Jerking a dog's collar is not "checking" I'm afraid. As you see, it has little effect and will only hurt the dog. Please throw that book away; it sounds full of very outdated ideas.

Get something by Karen Pryor, Turid Rugaas, Dr Ian Dunbar. These are real experts who have all written books on training the modern and kind way.

Please don't think I am nagging you, I'm not, but a bad training book is worse than no training book.


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## 912142 (Mar 28, 2011)

Yep I agree - too much yanking on the neck can cause serious long term injuries to the spinal cord. Have you thought about a Halti - would certainly give you more control over her at any stage of her walking.

Remember when they get to the park it's almost like us heading for Starbucks!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

912142 said:


> Yep I agree - too much yanking on the neck can cause serious long term injuries to the spinal cord. Have you thought about a Halti - would certainly give you more control over her at any stage of her walking.
> 
> *Remember when they get to the park it's almost like us heading for Starbucks! *




I hate coffee!!

I think maybe a front clip harness might be better in this case. I am a great believer in the right headcollar on the right dog, but if this dog is going nuts at the park, a halti or other headcollar could well cause neck problems as well. Just a thought, but a front clip harness and a double ended leash could mean control both ends of the lead.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> [/B]
> 
> I hate coffee!!
> 
> I think maybe a front clip harness might be better in this case. I am a great believer in the right headcollar on the right dog, but if this dog is going nuts at the park, a halti or other headcollar could well cause neck problems as well. Just a thought, but a front clip harness and a double ended leash could mean control both ends of the lead.


Agree; I have a Dogmatic headcollar for high stimulus 'urban' type environments, just a flat collar for most walking and also a front clip harness for high stimulus environments where Kilo would normally be off lead but for some reason can not be - for example, on holiday there was a lot of livestock that we encountered and birds to chase on cliff paths meaning that Kilo would make the odd sudden lunge even though he walks nicely on his collar most of the time, so I used his harness.

It sounds like a lot of faff for differing situations, but I do like the headcollar and harness as added 'safety' devices in differing situations.


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2011)

Lois' owner said:


> Do I need to buy a choke chain? or the ones with the sharp barb wire type collors? she is a right handful, and I want her to lose the prey instincts when she is with me.
> 
> I need help I really want a brilliant relationship with my dog hense me reading books and doing research online etc.


Is this for real? I'm sorry to be blunt but do you think that a choke chain or barb wire collar will help you develop a 'brillant relationship' with your dog?

I usually hold my tongue on posts like this but I can't here!

Reading books and doing research is fine, but please use common sense too!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

McKenzie said:


> Is this for real? I'm sorry to be blunt but do you think that a choke chain or barb wire collar will help you develop a 'brillant relationship' with your dog?
> 
> I usually hold my tongue on posts like this but I can't here!
> 
> Reading books and doing research is fine, but please use common sense too!


I think it is a question of inexperience really, and thankfully the poster has come to ask advice. When we first get a dog and know very little, we tend to take the wrong sort of advice or go for the spiel - this will stop your dog pulling - and look no further.

I asked Ferdie's breeder what I should do about him humping everybody and everything in sight, and she told me to try a citronella collar. So, ok, she was the breeder, she knew what she was about. The fact that I put it on so that it sprayed at the back of his neck and had no effect, was purely instinct on my part because I did not consider that she would recommend something that sprayed citrus up his nose. I didn't read the instructions properly and it never occurred to me. But I have had dogs before, so had some instincts about it.

This lady (?) could as easily have spoken to someone who told her to use a shock collar.

As I said, the wrong advice is worse than no advice. How many people have even heard of the authors and experts I mentioned? But they have all heard of the Dog Abuser, haven't they? At least this was only the wrong book.


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2011)

You're right, I apologise to the poster who is trying to do the best thing for their dog.

I guess I just find it difficult to understand how _anyone_ can think that ecollars and barbed collars and anything that causes pain is a good idea.

I'm glad they are getting some proper advice from all you patient people


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> As I said, the wrong advice is worse than no advice. How many people have even heard of the authors and experts I mentioned? But they have all heard of the Dog Abuser, haven't they? At least this was only the wrong book.


I have heard of all of those you have mentioned and they are all in my 'Dog Library' by the side of the bed. I am quickly becoming Turid Rugaas' number one fan. Her books are very short and to the point, relatively cheap and easy to buy, every point is illustrated with a photo and much easier to understand then a lot of training books. They are more about training the owner to recognise what their dog is saying to them and working with that than other ways of training. Her book about dogs pulling on the lead would probably be really useful for the OP.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Emmastace said:


> I have heard of all of those you have mentioned and they are all in my 'Dog Library' by the side of the bed. I am quickly becoming Turid Rugaas' number one fan. Her books are very short and to the point, relatively cheap and easy to buy, every point is illustrated with a photo and much easier to understand then a lot of training books. They are more about training the owner to recognise what their dog is saying to them and working with that than other ways of training. Her book about dogs pulling on the lead would probably be really useful for the OP.


Anyone who has been a member of this forum for a little while knows about these experts, of course, but I meant the every day dog owner who probably didn't even know there were such things as pet forums. They only find us when they have a problem, thank goodness. I only know of these people through being a member of this forum.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> too much yanking on the neck can cause serious long term injuries to the spinal cord


Wow thats rare to see someone who is aware of real, common problems with pulling on flat buckles. I don't remember seeing anyone post that info before yet everydog is at risk of neck, back, trachea and other damage due to pulling on leads and flat buckles.

*Link 1* is to a Swedish study of 1991, 400 dogs were involved & 92% had the above damage co-related to leash pulling & jerks, yet your the only one who seems aware of real problems, see link 1.

*Swedish study on back damage due to lead pulling, 1991*.
Dog Pulling On Leash - EDUCATIONAL E-COLLAR DOG

*Owner/Dog & Stress Damage Due to Long Term Pulling Leash. Harness & No Offlead Exercise*

1. This is the damage & perpetual stress whilst on reduced exercise caused over 7 months by pulling on harnesses & collar & lead, the whining at the end has apparently started around 4 days ago to this vid & is due to lack of relationship with owner, accumulated stress & frustration and having to be lead confined since it was 7 months old due to no recall.
YouTube - APDT UK, Training Damage Fall Out Association Pet Dog Trainers UK Ineffective Training Sample.

*Begining Of Health Recovery On Prong Collar (5 mins)*

2. This was the first 5 mins of the same dog being put on a prong collar of which it had no previous learning experience. Within 3 mins there is a significant improvement, more progress & stress reduction in 3 mins than the preceeding 7 months.
YouTube - APDT UK Damaged Dog, Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK. No 3. First 5 Mins Prong Collar Recovery

*Complete Recovery Of Damage & Dog/Relationship 3 Days Later.*

3. This the same dog and owner 3 days after. Just a happy, reaxed, non stressed dog and owner on a normal walk.
YouTube - 4. APDT UK Training Damage. Complete Health Recovery By Day 3 Of Prong Collar



> Have you thought about a Halti - would certainly give you more control over her at any stage of her walking.


*Users feedback + scientific study on 4 halter types.*



> *Rottiefan* Every dog and every behaviour can be worked on using the "kindler gentler methods"


Well LeashedForLife does not agree with you, she uses, promotes & sells what's considered the harshest most dangerous piece of equipment there is, the halter head cage in common use with those who claim "kinder gentler methods".

Below -Front line users experiences and science study of "kindler gentler methods"

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/17609-what-do-you-think-halties.html

Mini Post 2
i personaly won't use them, they only seem to work when they are on the dog from my expiriance and don't cure the problem. i know of someone who left an old halti on a dog while it was tied up and it managed to get the nose bit around its neck and half strangled its self

Jackson post 3
I am reluctantly using one on Connie occasionally, although I am not proud to admit it!
I wouldn't have resorted to it in any other circumstances and she absolutely hates it

Widgetdog35 Post4
alot of dog have halties on and in the wrong hands they are evil and couse whiplash, eye injury, friction burns, just to name a few

Shane Post7
To be honest, I've yet to meet a dog that is totally relaxed wearing one, they always seem to try and get them off or pull against them and spin round.

Dottycon Post 14
Persevered with Halti after some previous posts on here as Archie really hated it
It does work but I don't like how he looks so miserable with it on

Bengalpudle Post 15
it makes my blood boil when I see that all dog owner are using them wrong
Where I live 3 out of 5 dogs which you see are having a haltie and NON of the owner are able to use them as they should do

Jeanie Post16
my black damaged his nose he had to go to vet and i spent two weeks every day putting it on with treats but he hated it and would roll all over the floor

*Science*

*Haltie research abstract*

Research has shown there is no evidence to support the notion dogs reactions to different halter head collars are different, all dogs in the pilot study show severe stress reactions to all the head collars.
Study findings below:

"_The responses of 12 dogs to four different head collars were compared in a crossover design over four 10 min sessions each spaced 2 weeks apart_"

Group 1
included pawing, pawing nose, biting/pawing leash, opening mouth, rubbing face, and shaking head.

Group 2 
included rearing up, balking, rushing forward, and rolling on ground. 
No statistical difference was observed between dogs' reactions to the head collar types.
Based on this study, there does not appear to be an increased acceptance of one head collar type over another.
There were no long term follow ups so long term consequences are unknown."

Head collars used - Gentle Leader, Haltie, Snoop Loop & Response.

Ref: 
Comparison of dogs' reactions to four different head collars, Applied Animal Behaviour Science Volume 79, Issue 1, 20 September 2002, Pages 53-61
L. I. Haug, B. V. Beavera and M. T. Longneckerb

.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

SleepyBones: if you want to hijack threads by Leashed or any others you've had run-ins with on the forum, that's acceptable. But as soon as you begin hijacking other's posts without giving any helpful advice and _re-posting_ your always depressing twaddle and horrible, punishment based, pedantic Youtube videos, it'll only be a matter of time before you get banned.

Let's hope it's soon, eh?:smile:


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> *Lois Owner*
> Hi guys, I'm getting my 6 month old bitch quite good on the lead, when we are walking around residentials areas etc, but when we get to the park, she turns into a raving lunatic.
> I took her for a walk this morning and was yanking on her chain every time she sniffed and went crazy over other dogs and pulled like mad. maybe to much


I forgot, I hope you find the info I posted usefull. I also forgot, what breed do you have?

.


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide (Apr 1, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> SleepyBones: if you want to hijack threads by Leashed or any others you've had run-ins with on the forum, that's acceptable. But as soon as you begin hijacking other's posts without giving any helpful advice and _re-posting_ your always depressing twaddle and horrible, punishment based, pedantic Youtube videos, it'll only be a matter of time before you get banned.
> 
> Let's hope it's soon, eh?:smile:


I'm not even going to get involved on this one, but so far the usual suspects (one in particular with NO clue) have already jumped on the OP with "don't use one of these, they should be banned" and "get a headcollar because my dog..." and "get this book by....."

When the simple answer is find a respected local trainer, have an assessment, and carefully select your equipment with their advice.

No-one on this board has seen the dog or the reaction, doesn't have the answers, and giving advice like they do may cause further comlications. To call it irresponsible advice is an understatement. And I agree with the post, headcollars are NOT safe and should NOT be recommended randomly.

regards,

Austin


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> I'm not even going to get involved on this one, but so far the usual suspects (one in particular with NO clue) have already jumped on the OP with "don't use one of these, they should be banned" and "get a headcollar because my dog..." and "get this book by....."
> 
> When the simple answer is find a respected local trainer, have an assessment, and carefully select your equipment with their advice.
> 
> ...


I do very much agree with you on the careful selection and research of equipment, which is why I have a variety of things for different situations; I think that is what I was trying to convey in my original post.

As I have also said before, I would not hesitate to recommend the pieces of equipment I use, including the headcollar - with the caveat that their use is looked at carefully by the person who I am recommending them to. The kit I use certainly suits my dog and I certainly ensure it is fit for purpose - for example i wouldn't undertake a countryside walk with livestock and birds with the headcollar or just flat collar due to the higher risk of sudden excited lunging, but I would use the harness. I would use the headcollar to walk down a busy street for added control where the risk is more children carrying head height ice creams and things like that (but with the lead attached also to flat collar as primary control). I use flat collar only for the majority of our walks and LLW is generally very good now.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Not had time to more than skim, so I'll just add this explanation.

This blog article may explain why your dog does this Doggy Dogma: Check, Prong & Eletric Collars - time for a re-think



> The issue is that when you go walking with your dog you are expecting it to behave at the same level as it does at home, when the dogs doesn't, because it is over-stimulated and extremely distracted - possibly even pulling on the lead


So gentle walking system helps you keep your dog calm, and use distance to keep the excitement down and be patient.


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide (Apr 1, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Not had time to more than skim, so I'll just add this explanation.
> 
> This blog article may explain why your dog does this Doggy Dogma: Check, Prong & Eletric Collars - time for a re-think
> 
> So gentle walking system helps you keep your dog calm, and use distance to keep the excitement down and be patient.


Rob, once again your ignorance astounds me. Not only is this link inappropriate, it's grossly inaccurate, wildly misleading and completely uncited by anyone even resembling an expert. Do you actually read these links before posting them. You, Rob, are the perfect example of amature advice at its worst.

regards,

Austin


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Would you punish a bird for wanting to fly? Would you hit a child for wanting to play? 
Your young dog wants to run and have fun, not trudge round the shops! 
Get a good dog training book, book up for puppy classes, and buy a long line so you can give her more freedom. :001_smile:
And play with her!
Once you`ve taught her recall, you can have the pleasure of watching her run and play and jump and swim and be a proper dog.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> *Blog -* using a positive punishment device like a shock collar is that your dog can associate the shock with what it is focused on,


Scuse me, he's thinking (not very clearly) of obsolete shock collars, as they started to fall into obsolesence in 1998 his blog is irrelevant especially his operant positive punisher when manufacturers are instructing the negative reinforcer, like most he seems to have no understanding of operant let alone e-collars.

Maybe you should do some research, guesswork means nothing.
Click The History of e-collars text on this site.

http://www.freewebs.com/historyecollars/index.htm

Shock collars Chapters starts chapter 2 at 1968 and goes through their obsolesence in 1998

.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Dogless said:


> I do very much agree with you on the careful selection and research of equipment, which is why I have a variety of things for different situations; I think that is what I was trying to convey in my original post.
> 
> As I have also said before, I would not hesitate to recommend the pieces of equipment I use, including the headcollar - with the caveat that their use is looked at carefully by the person who I am recommending them to. The kit I use certainly suits my dog and I certainly ensure it is fit for purpose - for example i wouldn't undertake a countryside walk with livestock and birds with the headcollar or just flat collar due to the higher risk of sudden excited lunging, but I would use the harness. I would use the headcollar to walk down a busy street for added control where the risk is more children carrying head height ice creams and things like that (but with the lead attached also to flat collar as primary control). I use flat collar only for the majority of our walks and LLW is generally very good now.


He's got the hump because I said his nasty prong collars should be banned. I make no apology for suggesting the right authors to read, nor for stating that a headcollar would not be a good idea in these circumstances.

You are doing a great job with your dog, using the right equipment for him. A prong collar is never the right equipment.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> He's got the hump because I said his nasty prong collars should be banned. I make no apology for suggesting the right authors to read, nor for stating that a headcollar would not be a good idea in these circumstances.
> 
> You are doing a great job with your dog, using the right equipment for him. A prong collar is never the right equipment.


Don't worry, I still stand by my assertion that I will never use a prong collar...not my thing at all.

I think that recommending equipment and authors is helpful ... people don't have to use the equipment or read the books but knowing that they are available and being able to look into them further certainly increases their options and brings concepts to their attention which are previously unknown. They can still choose for themselves.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Ooooh, I got abused by Austin yet again! 

OP should know that "Luv My Dogs" promotes a product that costs £42 that has hidden blades inside the collar, and still relies on action to neck.

For about £13 (including a double training lead) you can buy an anti-pull walking system that is comfortable for your dog, which works very well, even for dogs that react dangerously to passing cars and such, and causes no pain or discomfort to the dog.

Your choice is, to actually understand your dog, and choose appropriate actions, helping it over come issues; along lines suggested by most people on forum.

Or you can try to *bully* it by following possibly self serving advice of product manufacturers or those who have axes to grind.

Some people on the forum actually have a track record of helping people solve problems, others seem to be here to provoke arguments (trolling) or push products.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Ooooh, I got abused by Austin yet again!
> 
> OP should know that "Luv My Dogs" promotes a product that costs £42 that has hidden blades inside the collar, and still relies on action to neck.
> 
> ...


It is unfortunate that the newer trolls seem to have taken over this thread to sell their wares or promote their barbaric methods. Unfortunately, they seem to have driven the OP away, causing an argument on one of her first postings.

I hope she returns to read the good advice given by the experienced trainers.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> I hope she returns to read the good advice given by the experienced trainers.


I hope she now understands that the term 'reward' training is actualy B F Skinners negative punishment BASE application method of training, and Skinner said of his learning theory "_Punishment is used to suppress behavior. The punished person henceforth acts in ways which reduce the threat of punishment_". Negative punishment is the main operant method recommended on here although people incorrectly call it it 'reward' or P+ based, it is not and cannot be reward based, it is P- based.

I also hope she reads the short 32 page free download of the results of negative punishment application in a dog training context and maybe goes on to buy the full study E Schalke, H Hackbarth study, here are the results & short 32 page download again for those who missed it.

*Robust Science Study 2009.*

Comparison Positive Training Methods ( reality = negative punishment training)
When Dogs Are In Drive

Training Effects
Ecollar 92.9% success 
prong collar 76.2% success - 
positive training (= negative punishments training) 7.1% success and classed by the research team as 'ineffective'

Positive training (= negative punishment methods) showed significantly higher stress levels than the others as well as fear related tail lowering.

Free download, short, 32 page, version.
Comparison of stress and learning effects of three different training methods in dogs.pdf - 4shared.com - document sharing - download

Refs
1. B F Skinner, A brief Survey Of Operant Behaviour

2. Full Study appx $31:00
Journal of Veterinary Behaviour: Clinical Applications and Research
Volume 4, Issue 6, Page 252 (November 2009)
Comparison of stress and learning effects of 3 different training methods in dogs. Hanover Veterinary University.
E. Schalke, S. Ott, Y. Salgirli, I. Böhm, H. Hackbarth. Hanover Veterinary University

ScienceDirect - Search Results: ALL(Comparison of stress and learning effects of three different training methods in dogs) AND AUTHORS(E. Schalke)

.


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide (Apr 1, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> He's got the hump because I said his nasty prong collars should be banned. I make no apology for suggesting the right authors to read, nor for stating that a headcollar would not be a good idea in these circumstances.
> 
> You are doing a great job with your dog, using the right equipment for him. A prong collar is never the right equipment.


You have no idea of why a prong collar should be banned, how one works, what it does, the effects, the mechanics, the benefits. Excuse me for thinking you have less than no clue and base your opinion on a couple of pictures and random web pages and your two dogs. Yet you openly admit headcollars can cause neck injury and will argue till you're blue in the face they're safe, kind and not aversive. The word "nasty" is more apt to your view in relation to a safe and widely used training tool. Sometimes it's best not to even have an opinion, this is where you should stand on something clearly out your scope of understanding.

regards,

Austin


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide (Apr 1, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> It is unfortunate that the newer trolls seem to have taken over this thread to sell their wares or promote their barbaric methods.


No, Rob, your clique buddy, dragged this thread down the route of shock and prong collars after you mentioned one of them.

You two are to blame for this alleged trolling! Cannot simply accept you don't have all the answers and other people will use a tool you can't understand. Your insistance of targeting particular collars is becoming quite tiresome when you can't even hold a conversation about their basic function without 2 fingers in your ears going "la la la I'm not listening".

To make it even worse, without even reading the OP's questions and adding something constructive to the plight, Rob then goes and posts a random blog by a random Australian "trainer" full of errors and inaccuracies about 2 collars she's the LEAST qualified to discuss, what with both being prohibited imports and her being unlikely to draw any emperical use of any quantity.

Might as well read a review of bacon sarnies from Israel!!!

Don't accuse people of being trolls when some of you are the worst offenders for having a fixation on e-collars and prong collars and hijack threads with your inept unqualified ramblings. Not to mention smothering the chance of any "experienced" trainers (Terry not included by a long stretch..... unless someone Youtubed it first) making any headway in the usual flame war.

You don't know what the right equipment is, none of us do yet, and I'd love a trainer to recommend a prong to piss on your chips!

regards,

Austin


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

*To the OP:* I would recommend you take it much slower than you are at the moment. Have much shorter walks in the park and pracitise basic obedience and focus exercises as soon as you get in. If she's going wild, just wait until she gives you eye contact, kind of like this exercise: 
Playing Perseverance | Dog Star Daily

If your dog does well, even for 30 seconds to a minute at first, you can reward by letting her sniff in the park for a couple of minutes. I would then exit and re-enter and repeat. Hopefully, you will be able to gain more control over her and she will offer you attention when you go in the park. Keep the walks short and any sign of over-excitement, either wait for good behaviour and reward when you get it, or you can exit the park and re-enter when she's calm.

Needless to say, I don't condone the use of choke/pinch/e-collars. Regardless of whether they work or not, to use them in any way that could be seen as 'correctly', you need to be very experienced with that tool...and that is not the case for the average dog owner or even behaviourist.

*SleepyBones:* That study is quite interesting but it has its downfalls. As the researchers say, the fact that they are only testing one breed in one specific exercise doesn't make it generalisable. What's more, there was only a higher level of saliva cortisol (through frustration on the dog's part mostly, it seems) found in the negative punishment-trained dogs _but there were more 'submissive' body postures, startle responses and vocalisations from the dogs for the pinch collar and e-collar- vocalisations were exclusive to e-collars, in fact._ So not conclusive at all. I think one of the main problems is that those three training methods do not take the same time to become as 'effective'. R+/P- take longer to proof as _we are training the dog to make the decision_, whereas using P+ means we have much more control over the situation. So the negative punishment based training should have been practised longer than the other two P+ based ones, IMO.

It would have been nice to find out a bit more about the actual exercise they were training also, as my first reaction was that it wasn't negative punishment they were using.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> No, Rob, your clique buddy, dragged this thread down the route of shock and prong collars after you mentioned one of them


Austin, you have reached new heights of inaccuracy and nonsense.

The OP described prong collars in her first post, calling them "barbed wire".


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Austin, you have reached new heights of inaccuracy and nonsense.
> 
> The OP described prong collars in her first post, calling them "barbed wire".


Am I your "clique buddy", Rob? Gee, that makes me so proud


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## Lois' owner (Apr 26, 2011)

Ok guys, I came on here for advice, and I must say it's been quite entertaining seeing s few of each other going after one another.

I think for me now, I need to get her to recall, she just wants to run about and have fun in the park and who can blame here

When the park is quiet I let her off her lead, but every dog she sees she has to run over there like a mad one

So I'm going to buy an extendable dog lead so when the park is busy she still has more freedom.

Thanks for the links, and the advice, not sure who to believe or sorry who is more accurate.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Lois' owner said:


> Ok guys, I came on here for advice, and I must say it's been quite entertaining seeing s few of each other going after one another.
> 
> I think for me now, I need to get her to recall, she just wants to run about and have fun in the park and who can blame here
> 
> ...


You will do far better trying to teach a good recall. It is not easy, especially with a friendly dog who just wants to go play (I know I have a couple of those) but get yourself armed with some really high value treats, chicken, cheese, livercake (oh, mine will do anything for livercake) or bits of cooked liver, something she doesn't normally get. You have to be more interesting that the other dogs. You will do fine.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Lois' owner said:


> Ok guys, I came on here for advice, and I must say it's been quite entertaining seeing s few of each other going after one another.
> 
> I think for me now, I need to get her to recall, she just wants to run about and have fun in the park and who can blame here
> 
> ...


I am sorry that your thread turned into the same debate that every thread in the Training section has recently; it must be off putting for new members and certainly I am enjoying this section of the forum far less than I used to as well. Just take the ideas that you think you like the sound of, research them further and come to your own considered decision.

I hope that you will stick around on here and that things improve.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Lois' owner said:


> Ok guys, I came on here for advice, and I must say it's been quite entertaining seeing s few of each other going after one another.
> 
> I think for me now, I need to get her to recall, she just wants to run about and have fun in the park and who can blame here
> 
> ...


You'll find two schools of thought here:

1) If you don't come back bad things will happen
2) If you do come back good things will happen

Currently I'm trying 2. The good thing is either sit/collar grab/praise then toy or sit/collar grab/praise then food treat. I had a fairly successful day today... but the hardest thing is other dogs. Note when I throw the toy I say "toy". So I've had some success when he's heading off towards another dog I shout "toy". He looks back to see where it is and I throw it short which starts him heading back towards me.

2 is harder work. The 1ers will offer you a quicker fix. The 2ers say that 1 will give you behavioural side-effects. The 1ers disagree. 1ers hate 2ers and 2ers hate 1ers but you'd gathered that already


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

diefenbaker said:


> You'll find two schools of thought here:
> 
> 1) If you don't come back bad things will happen
> 2) If you do come back good things will happen
> ...


Haha, I think this should be published or made a sticky at least.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Am I your "clique buddy", Rob? Gee, that makes me so proud


You should be proud, when you get targetted by Austin, you are in good company :lol:
And I'm proud to be placed in with a humane, true dog loving person, rather than the bad company of the force & coercion crowd.

Hopefully the moderators will take note about the confusion caused to new members, who don't have hours & hours to wade through threads, discovering who actually resorts to abuse, ignores inconvenient points, distorts information, and fails to admit interests.

There are ppl here who can discuss differences of opinion in a rational way, unfortunately it requires significant attention span of late to follow anything.

@Dogless: you're not the only one who finds the forum less pleasant as a result. I don't think disappearing threads as seems to be happening is a good solution though, as it allows the trolls to re-open the same arguments with a clean slate, after serious ppl invested hours rebutting, correcting & pointing out the distortions of other's work made in their references.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Lois' owner said:


> Ok guys, I came on here for advice, and I must say it's been quite entertaining seeing s few of each other going after one another.
> 
> I think for me now, I need to get her to recall, she just wants to run about and have fun in the park and who can blame here
> 
> ...


On recall, having an accomplice helps a lot, just to hold your dog whilst you move away, and she'll be raring to run to you.

If you socialise your dog and allow play regularly, with some calming pauses where you get your dogs attention it's great for more solid recall against distractions later on, because your dog has practice breaking it's focus and giving you attention.

Personally I much prefer using a long lead (line) made out of linked training leads, than "extender" leads, because they're lighter than a box, more flexible, allow "umbilical" round waist attachment, stronger, allow attachment of toys on end for games and don't teach the dog to pull on leash. For safe recall practice old (or cheap) washing line would work perfectly though. Having a safe line that can be dragged along grass, lets you let go, without the dog immediately noticing it's not restrained, so allows a half way house, rather than encourage bolting the second doggie is "freed".


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide (Apr 1, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> You should be proud, when you get targetted by Austin, you are in good company :lol:
> And I'm proud to be placed in with a humane, true dog loving person, rather than the bad company of the force & coercion crowd.
> 
> Hopefully the moderators will take note about the confusion caused to new members, who don't have hours & hours to wade through threads, discovering who actually resorts to abuse, ignores inconvenient points, distorts information, and fails to admit interests.
> ...


Rob, at least I'm neither in denial that a balance training regeime is the most successful. At least I'm not delusional that one single method is the most effective. At least I own up to the fact I'm prepared to use both aversive and reward, and am not ashamed or in fear of being judged by hypocrites with advice they picked up off youtube and random uncited websites. You have yet to show either a degree of knowledge, ability to research, or an understanding of any one method. Given your track record you are certainly not a humane, true dog loving person, you may fool yourself into believing that you are, but your understanding of a basic concept, i.e. aversion/reward is way off the mark.

You really think anyone who doesn't fall for R+ hook line and sinker without questioning the reallity is bad company and "the force & coercion crowd"? This from someone who truly believes a headcollar that forcably applies pressure to a dogs face which is only relieved by the dog not pulling isn't coercion by an aversive tool. Really? Whatever. Next time someone asks for a dog trainer in Narnia I'll make sure you're the first recommendation. Can;t even put 2 and 2 together and believes he has the ability to give training advice that doesn't resort to abuse, or ignores inconvenient points, and trying to justify it doesn't distort information. As for not declaring an interest, how's about having a level of experience and understanding you simply won't learn because you're too pious.

As for distorts information..... you post a link to a random site you found on Google after 30 second searching without even taking the time to check your reference, a part time Australian dog trainer with no idea of the equipment which was perfectly clear within the first few sentences. Great choice Rob, way to impress us with your fine understanding of dog related issues. And you expect readers to believe what you say about R+ with that gulliable faith in someone's word because they can write a blog?

As for being a troll, you are the worst kind, your version of a rebutt, correction or reference is biased, grossly inaccurate and in some cases dangerous. You have no credibility yet post like you're attached to every known trainer with a book at the hip. In short, all talk and no substance, or shorter still, a prick.

regards,

Austin


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide (Apr 1, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Austin, you have reached new heights of inaccuracy and nonsense.
> 
> The OP described prong collars in her first post, calling them "barbed wire".


Did I mention prong collars, or correct the OP? No, I simply stated before the random whims of the equipment recommednations come out they should consult a trainer. Who mentioned prong collars first? Oh, oh my, it was you, along with shock collars.

Inaccuracies? Nonsense?

Troll much today?

regards,

Austin


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> And I'm proud to be placed in with a humane, true dog loving person


lol, oh yea sure, its very expensive though, especially for the dogs & of course it takes a little bit longer PMSL

UK Dog Training Scams - EDUCATIONAL E-COLLAR DOG
.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> *Lois Owner* - I think for me now, I need to get her to recall, she just wants to run about and have fun in the park and who can blame here


Before you start the recall you need to condition a strong positive reinforcer ( it means strengthen any behaviour, others call it reward). The link below shows positive conditioning conditioning method & results but you need a dog to come to your voice first before conditioning whistles etc.

Keep her on lead & in a place where she is not distracted to start conditioning, you have introduce distractions gradually, over a period of months with a dog of her age.

YouTube - E-Collar Training. Positive Conditioning Recall With Collar Tone. Bristol Uni Grad WARNING.
.


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## Guest (May 3, 2011)

Lois' owner said:


> Ok guys, I came on here for advice, and I must say it's been quite entertaining seeing s few of each other going after one another.
> 
> I think for me now, I need to get her to recall, she just wants to run about and have fun in the park and who can blame here
> 
> ...


As you say! she is a young dog, you won't go far wrong by working on her recall in a secure area and then moving on to perfecting it in public places!
Far more rewarding then using any type of collar imo (which yes I do know your dog legally has to wear when out - but you know what I mean)

What breed are we talking by the way?

DT

All the best!
DT


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> lol, oh yea sure, its very expensive though, especially for the dogs & of course it takes a little bit longer PMSL


Fraid my pup had better recall at 13 weeks than most do at 3 years old eg) I was already able to call him to him during play with other dogs. Conditioning to a blown whistle took him just 2 days, and the training came for free when he was rushing back to me anyway, during normal outing time.

Your statements and views do not agree with reality.

BTW Sleepy, you also seem to be confusing cues with reinforcers.

@Austin : Once again, *The OP was person who asked about prongs, calling them barbed wire*. You are exhibitting paranoia and inability to process information (again). I did not even notice you'ld got involved in the thread before my first post, I just added the link to the good advice given by the others.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> What breed are we talking by the way?


Understanding your breed helps so you can judge what distractions are most significant.

Whilst away, I was amused to see very many Westies & JRT's off lead, whilst in my local area they tend to be restricted on flexi-leads, due to many small mammals around trees. Without the distractions, they were as good at having a quick sniff at a mark spot, and catch up with their owners as pastoral breeds like GSD's & Collies, which was nice to see.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> Fraid my pup had better recall at 13 weeks than most do at 3 years old eg


Hardly surprising considering your pic shows a BC, which I assume to be yours. They are the most biddable & co-operative dogs on the planet, beginer kids can train them easly, see link
YouTube - The &#39;Positive&#39; &#39;Modern&#39; Training, Commercial Con Trick Exposed, Historical Images Blows The Myth

.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> Hardly surprising considering your pic shows a BC, which I assume to be yours. They are the most biddable & co-operative dogs on the planet, beginer kids can train them easly


Fraid other breeds of dogs do well at the rewards based training, they just aren't quite as quick to understand what you want and have less focus. I've seen Bulldogs, older and supposedly stubborn and slow, learn just as well and good Staffies and other (rarer) terriers.

VS's programme showed a Bulldog being clicker trained with great success.

Plenty ppl with Collies, don't make the progress I had (despite a difficult start), mostly because they try and punish or be forceful confusing and increasing anxity in the dog. They don't fully get rewards based training, and tend to mix in traditional tone and mindset, rather than focus on reinforcing and setting their dogs up for success.

What you say, just conflicts with the real world I've seen at training classes and experience with rewards in the park to with other peoples dogs.


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## keirk (Aug 9, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> They are the most biddable & co-operative dogs on the planet, beginer kids can train them easly


He he! But surely the most biddable breed award must go to labradors?! And mine still won't do as he's told 

BTW what the hell was the link to the video about?


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Enough said:
YouTube - kikopup&#39;s Channel


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

13 weeks old - YouTube - Rottie pup learns to stack using the clicker clip includes a blooper 
And it's not just the young ladies... MissRaeLita - my rottie doing his tricks 13 weeks old

Then of course there's Blue Peter's Shep famed for his calm biddability.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Then of course there's Blue Peter's Shep famed for his calm biddability.


Especially when told to "get down". Is that an urban myth ? Did he ever actually say that ?


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

That's why Shep was so popular, it was hilarious, and "Get down, Shep!" was a catch phrase because of course Shep didn't listen and totally ignored it, just getting more and more excited. Oddly the only film I found of Noakes & Shep in action, involved off road bikes and Shep was amazingly well behaved.


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide (Apr 1, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> @Austin : Once again, *The OP was person who asked about prongs, calling them barbed wire*. You are exhibitting paranoia and inability to process information (again). I did not even notice you'ld got involved in the thread before my first post, I just added the link to the good advice given by the others.


No, Rob, you read "prong collar" and wet your self riteous pants without even reading what the thread was about.....that's paranoia, and an overhwelming desire to take part even though you don't know what you're talking about. Your link proved that! But since you have a dog..sorry, puppy...that at 13 weeks is "supertraineddogthankstorob" I wouldn't expect any less. ALL your advice I've seen so far can be traced to dubious websites and dubious sources. You've not provided a shred of proof for ability or aptitude with dogs but insist on talking like you're an authority. Weak, Rob, very weak and very naieve. Just let it drop, you've been sussed as an armchair expert and an R+ toll, why do you insist on proving that fact further?

regards,

Austin


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> No, Rob, you read "prong collar" and wet your self riteous pants without even reading what the thread was about...


OMG Austin, you're funny!!!!

I did not read prong collar. I saw "one of those barbed wire collars" and someone with a dog that was likely getting distracted from owners on walks.

This is the 3rd time, please take heed for once, or your research credibility will be even lower.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Dogless said:


> I am sorry that your thread turned into the same debate that every thread in the Training section
> has recently; it must be off-putting for new members and certainly I am enjoying this section of the forum far less
> than I used to as well.
> Just take the ideas that you think you like the sound of, research them further & come to your own considered decision.


Suggestion - 
:001_smile: use that *ignore* button, it saves a huge amount of time & lowers stress.

with the superfluous posts eliminated, reading the desired ones is so much easier & much faster, too.


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide (Apr 1, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> OMG Austin, you're funny!!!!
> 
> I did not read prong collar. I saw "one of those barbed wire collars" and someone with a dog that was likely getting distracted from owners on walks.
> 
> This is the 3rd time, please take heed for once, or your research credibility will be even lower.


So without even reading what was being posted, you put a link to........?? Don't try and dodge the issue Rob, you posted a link to.....??? And your research was.....???? And you helped the op how exactly.....??? And your view was.....?????

Rob, you're an irresponsible know it all with an empty point to prove and no background knowledge. Why do you insist on taunting a response that you can't deal with? The telltale hallmark of a complete troll.


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## Guest (May 6, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> Suggestion -
> :001_smile: use that *ignore* button, it saves a huge amount of time & lowers stress.
> 
> with the superfluous posts eliminated, reading the desired ones is so much easier & much faster, too.


Good advice! and guaranteed to work!


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## furryfriendhut (Apr 17, 2011)

What are your thoughts about professional dog training?


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> So without even reading what was being posted, you put a link to........?? Don't try and dodge the issue Rob


No Austin, I read the OP and the early answers, and then added the background information you object to.

As you're motivated by defense of a commercial product and proven, to be highly selective and biased by past discussion; believe it or not, I do not think you have a credible opinion. Nor do I believe you are an expert, as you have made far too many errors, nor do you seek to understand why we find your product a poor one.

I did not waste my time, by reading your posts in this thread! I did read the others!


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## Pheonix*Ella (Apr 25, 2011)

Hi there,

My rescue dog was a puller for the first two weeks and now we have it sorted. I use a normal lead and harness. I don't attach the lead to the collar. I don't want her to have a sore neck. I attach it to the back of her harness.

I used the same method as on Dog Borstal which is super easy. You can youtube it but the repeats are on sky at the mo on 'Really' channel.

You just make a loop with the lead and as soon as dog pulls, release the loop and change direction. It kind of catches them out! Anyhoo, it doesn't hurt and involves a bit of repetition, that's all. 

Phe soon got it and now never pulls....they just think "ah - ok so it's easier for me to just stay close by"

I'm only a novice but it worked for us a treat!


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide (Apr 1, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> No Austin, I read the OP and the early answers, and then added the background information you object to.
> 
> As you're motivated by defense of a commercial product and proven, to be highly selective and biased by past discussion; believe it or not, I do not think you have a credible opinion. Nor do I believe you are an expert, as you have made far too many errors, nor do you seek to understand why we find your product a poor one.
> 
> I did not waste my time, by reading your posts in this thread! I did read the others!


Rob, this is where your personal bias gets in the way of rational discussion, which doesn't really matter as you can't grasp the simplest of comparisons.

To quote you half way down page 2 when there are only 2 slight references to prong collars:
_"Not had time to more than skim, so I'll just add this explanation."_

....and then link to a random Australian part time trainers blog with so many errors it's not even a viable read.

Yes Rob, you linked to the information I object to, incorrect and dangerous. Nice way to add to a debate, barely read, pick out the bit you don't like, then maliciously post misleading sources. Did you even skim/proof read that page? If you did and agree with it Rob you're completely out your depth as far as research and understanding goes, being smug and trying to make a point has shown as ill informed and overly opinionated on a subject you have no clue about.

In addition, your crusade against the prong collars has clouded your judgement and I also believe you've never read any of my previous posts and taken in the critisism I've made all along. The anti aversive cliq are ignorant to the nature of their choice of equipment by denying it's also aversive. That's why your argument always falls over through complete lack of information and understanding:

Prong collars cause pain
Prong collars are aversive
Non aversive methods should be used exclusively

Then go on about how useful headcollars are without even acknowledging:

Headcollars cause pain
Headcollars are aversive
You are not using non aversive methods exclusively

You then state I make errors, when you can't even get the basics of how your own preferred equipment works, let alone guess at how an alternative piece of equipment works that you don't even understand in the slightest. Is it any wonder I treat you as a complete imbecile?

The only thing you manage to do effectively is get me to waste my time feeding the trolls. Armchair experts like you do more harm than good in a public forum, and I genuinely shudder at the thought of anyone being so gulliable as to believe your obviously inept and misguided advice.

regards,

Austin


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

:lol: :lol: :lol: My BC sure makes a good armchair dog! :lol: :lol:

The bottom line is, who would risk those blades slicing backwards on their pets neck? If you don't care about dogs getting over-stimulated and over-whelmed, what sort of product designer are you?


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