# Delayed birth of the last kitten?



## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

Dear breeders!
I would like to find out please what is the general opinion among the experienced breeders on the situation when a queen produces a few healthy kittens and then does not show any contractions for many hours (sometimes over 24 hours)? Someone here told about the healthy litter being born very gradually, where the time difference between the first and the last kittens being born was over 24 hours. In that case all ended well.
In the case of my cat we had a cesarean and we lost the last kitten. We took our cat to the vet 5 hours after she had her third kitten. 
The vet told us that there was one more kitten there and gave her two injections (the second one about 15 minutes after the first one), which were meant to induce contractions. Nothing happened, we took our girl home and her contractions started only 10 hours after the injections. The kitten got stuck, we took her back to the vet in 15 min and the cesarean followed. The kitten did not survive. 
Now when all this is behind us I am trying to understand whether we were right trying to induce the contractions? Maybe we should have let the nature take its course and maybe then she had more strength in her for contractions strong enough to deliver the last kitten in her own time and without any cesarean? 
Where is the criteria? What do you think?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I found out recently that kittens apparently play an active part in the rotation they have to do during delivery, so the kitten might already have been dead or in trouble. 

It's very difficult to decide what is for the best - cats don't have the same level of care that humans do - and most people would want to avoid a section if at all possible.


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> I found out recently that kittens apparently play an active part in the rotation they have to do during delivery, so the kitten might already have been dead or in trouble.
> 
> It's very difficult to decide what is for the best - cats don't have the same level of care that humans do - and most people would want to avoid a section if at all possible.


Yes, I wanted to avoid cesarean section - I refused to have it done at the first visit to the vet. Only when the contractions started again in 10 hours and the kitten got stuck - there was nothing else we could do.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

Very difficult question - my girls first litter I had one born 9pm, two at around 2-3am and the fourth not until 4pm, 11hrs after the third one. She never became distressed in any way, and although I was sure she had another one to come I left her as I had been advised that sometimes there can be huge gaps. I dont know if I would do the same again, you can really only do what you feel to be best in the circumstances at the time knowing your cat. Dont beat yourself up you did what you felt to be right at the time and we cant do more than that. I was lucky in that I was ok for my girl to wait, at the time I didnt know whether it was the right thing to do or not. Her next litter she delivered 6 within 2 and a half hours and if that had been my first experience I dont know if my nerve would have held so well for the 11hour wait.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

It's a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation. I've known breeders have a last kitten born days after the first and all was well. I think you'd only let that happen if you were sitting in happy ignorance of there being an unborn kitten. I've also known breeders in a dash to the vet after a short time and still end up with a C-section and dead kitten. If situations were obvious and there were hard and fast rules we'd all have many fewer grey hairs


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Sorry to hear that  It really is a hard call  But you always try and do what you think is best, I hope that mum and current kittens are doing ok now?



OrientalSlave said:


> I found out recently that kittens apparently play an active part in the rotation they have to do during delivery, so the kitten might already have been dead or in trouble.
> 
> It's very difficult to decide what is for the best - cats don't have the same level of care that humans do - and most people would want to avoid a section if at all possible.


Yes I was also told and read that it is the kittens that decide when to be born, I did have a litter that literally ran of space and was born on day 61, the earliest I have had a litter born, normally day 63-65-70. Was a awful birth so wont go into it on here


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Difficult question as I have experienced both.
My queen had her litter then 36 hours after had a another kitten born, all was well and she wasn't stressed, she did however have 3 vet visits at home.

Another queen was stressed and I had a feeling all was not right, she ended up at the vets and we did lose her kitten.

I don't think there is a right or wrong way, you just have to try and make the choices at the time, I do expect the kitten you had was already in trouble so whatever way you went probably wouldn't have made any difference.

You will have so many questions and what ifs in your head but honestly in a lot of cases sadly it wasn't to be.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

My girl recently had 3 kittens and seemed done, then another 6 hours later and a final one 24 hours after the last.
She was settled and happy, couldn't see or feel the kittens . If they're stressed of course vet is seen, otherwise I have no reason to stress a new mum for nothing. So far haven't needn't a vet for any births, always make sure I'm present for the birth just in case though, couldn't leave my girls to do it alone.

Very experienced breeder friend had a sneaky last kitten show up 24 hours later with no issues, was settled in with her kittens so no need for a vet visit.

You did what you felt was right and that's all any of us can do.


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

From all the opinions expressed I conclude (for myself in future) that probably the criteria is how the queen behaves. If she is stressed - the help is needed, if not - she should be left to deliver in her own time - under close supervision of course! Luckily our Panthera is not the one to hide her feelings and intentions from us, she wants us close.

The main reason why we were so quick to run to the vet was that the first kitten was very difficult and if it has not been for the help of our mentor, who just knew where to press the queen's tummy to help the kitten move, we would have had a real tragedy on our hands. But all the 3 kittens were perfectly fine from the beginning. 

Thank you everybody for your opinions, it did help. :thumbup1:


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

I personally would have done same OP.

I had near on exact same last year,1st kit born dead second kitten got stuck,mum was given double shot of oxytocin still nothing,so took her back for a section,the kit in the birth canal was alive but weak and later died,2 healthy kits born,vets found mums uterus had ruptured so she was spayed.

They made a real mess of my girl but thats another story.Iv not used that vets since mind.


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

we love bsh's said:


> I personally would have done same OP.
> 
> I had near on exact same last year,1st kit born dead second kitten got stuck,mum was given double shot of oxytocin still nothing,so took her back for a section,the kit in the birth canal was alive but weak and later died,2 healthy kits born,vets found mums uterus had ruptured so she was spayed.
> 
> They made a real mess of my girl but thats another story.Iv not used that vets since mind.


That is a scary story! Was uterus ruptured with the second kit that got stuck? And the 2 live ones born with cesarean section?


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Kotanushka said:


> That is a scary story! Was uterus ruptured with the second kit that got stuck? And the 2 live ones born with cesarean section?


No idea why uterus ruptured,however i did read that oxytocin can do this,Yes the 2 live were born via section.


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

we love bsh's said:


> No idea why uterus ruptured,however i did read that oxytocin can do this,Yes the 2 live were born via section.


Oxytocin can cause uterus rupture? Thank you for telling me! I know what I'll try to avoid now.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Kotanushka said:


> Oxytocin can cause uterus rupture? Thank you for telling me! I know what I'll try to avoid now.


You are welcome.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Oxytocin can cause uterus rupture? Thank you for telling me! I know what I'll try to avoid now.


I've used it in the past and it hasn't caused a problem. There is a risk of rupture if it's used too early. It can't be used to induce labour - there's no way of doing that with a cat. It can be useful with a stalled labour.



> Was uterus ruptured with the second kit that got stuck?


Very likely. If the kitten was truly 'stuck' then oxytocin can't magically make the birth canal bigger.


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

havoc said:


> I've used it in the past and it hasn't caused a problem. There is a risk of rupture if it's used too early. It can't be used to induce labour - there's no way of doing that with a cat. It can be useful with a stalled labour.
> 
> So was it right when oxytocin injection was done by the vet 5 hours after the 3 kittens were born and there were no contractions at all since that time? The queen in fact was very calm and happy with her babies. Or should it be done only if there are weak contractions that do not result in anything?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Kotanushka said:


> We took our cat to the vet 5 hours after she had her third kitten. The vet told us that there was one more kitten there and gave her two injections (the second one about 15 minutes after the first one), which were meant to induce contractions. Nothing happened, we took our girl home and her contractions started only 10 hours after the injections. The kitten got stuck, we took her back to the vet in 15 min and the cesarean followed. The kitten did not survive.
> Now when all this is behind us I am trying to understand whether we were right trying to induce the contractions? Maybe we should have let the nature take its course and maybe then she had more strength in her for contractions strong enough to deliver the last kitten in her own time and without any cesarean?
> Where is the criteria? What do you think?


To go back to your original post for a moment, I think that, really, you've answered your own question. Nothing happened, i.e. no contractions, after the two injections and your girl didn't start contracting until 10 hours later. I don't think there was any question of " maybe she would have had more strength...." - the oxytocin injections didn't work and she then rested 10 hours before resuming contractions. What I'm trying to say in a roundabout way is that the injections clearly had no effect at all on her.

When the oxytocin failed to work, did your vet advise to take her home and just wait? A little unusual as, if oxytoxin is going to work, it works very quickly, i.e. within 30 mins. I can't really understand the point of giving oxytocin, it not working (as sometimes happens) but then doing nothing for many, many hours.


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

gskinner123 said:


> When the oxytocin failed to work, did your vet advise to take her home and just wait? A little unusual as, if oxytoxin is going to work, it works very quickly, i.e. within 30 mins. I can't really understand the point of giving oxytocin, it not working (as sometimes happens) but then doing nothing for many, many hours.


The vet's reasoning was that although oxytocin did not work she might start contractions later in her own time and he did not see any reason to perform the cesarean straight away. 
All I can say for myself is that I have never been in such a situation before, my brain did not work very well for the lack of sleep and I relied on the vet's opinion. If it happens again, I will not let oxytocin injection with no contractions to begin with.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> If it happens again, I will not let oxytocin injection with no contractions to begin with.


This is absolutely correct if there have been no contractions at all. Your girl had though as she had already delivered kittens. The main risk of rupture comes from using oxytocin before labour has truly started ie while the cervix is still not open. When I used it there had been no kittens yet but the vet did an internal examination and established that the cat had obviously been labouring and the cervix was fully dilated. The result was 8 healthy kittens.


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