# Pulling Dog - it does get better, doesn't it?



## Guest (Oct 4, 2019)

Firstly, I'm sorry for plaguing the forums lately. I value the advice given on this one, so I'm a pest! sorry.

We're currently doing the 'stop/wait till Finn comes back/ set off again' method with him to try and get him to stop pulling like a freight train. So far, mixed results but we're persevering. I'm using a clicker with it also (he responds v well to the clicker when out, he ignores my voice for the most part). In small 'boring' areas he is incredibly responsive, he's brilliant. On our proper walks, he's a PITA (I learnt this term here-took me a while to figure out what it was!). 

Please tell me it gets better lol?

He 'plays me up' more than my husband - I'm a push over. Or pull - over. I think that's more appropriate in this context. A few other dog walkers have told me 'he's taking the mick out of you!', but I feel like a fraud being 'firmer' or 'more strict'. 

I'm basically fishing for reassurance. I know it's pathetic.


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

In my experience with Jack, my lurcher, he did “get it” eventually.

He’s walked in a harness and flexi for the most part so whilst I don’t require a “heel” I don’t want to be dragged along.

I was very strict on pavement walking (created a short lead scenario) but in the park would just allow enough tension to keep the flexi up, if that makes sense.

Rather than stop and get him to come back, I would just stop walking, wait for Jack to ease off and step back just one step, said “thank you, walk on” immediately.

It takes consistency so I resigned myself to not getting far too fast on walks until it eventually clicked. Probably 2-3 weeks of calmly going through the motions.

If his flexi passed in front of his chest he slowed naturally for some reason so maybe a front fastening harness would help?

Some dogs are better in a collar, some in a harness. What are you using?

Jack walked nicely sooner in his lurcher collar and lead, possibly helped by being closer to me. On the harness and flexi, being out in front I think they’re more likely to pull.


----------



## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

It gets better 

I found this method much more easier - I had quicker results since you're teaching the dog what you want them to do when they feel the pressure of the harness because they're pulling, rather than the dog trying to guess what you want when you're standing still waiting.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Yes , it gets better ! 
A clicker is a useful tool if used correctly . Where is he when you click ? make sure it is when he is by your side.

https://clickertraining.com/node/1057

One hundred peck

Imagine you want your dog to walk on a nice loose leash. You can teach 
this literally step-by-step using the "300 Peck" method. 1 step, click 
and treat. 1 step, 2 steps, click and treat; etc

Although it is not obvious, in practice, "300 Peck" enables us to 
increase our criteria with greater than 80% success rate overall - and 
we don't even have to think too hard about it! We just have to 
remember what the last count was and add 1 if we clicked and treated.

This method also works by default to set the exact right amount of 
difficulty in any given situation. Sometimes there are distractions 
which we don't even notice, but our dogs do. "300 Peck" takes the 
guess-work out of setting appropriate criteria for the situation and 
always pushes for the maximum performance. To quote the oft-repeated 
phrase from 'help wanted' ads - no experience necessary!


----------



## Guest (Oct 4, 2019)

Phew, thank you all.

Finn came to us in a check chain - it didn't fit properly and we wanted to see what he was like 'normally', so he has a thicker normal leather collar and leash.
I used to walk four fit Labradors at once - they do not compare to Finn! Who'd have thought it, with his breed (labxhusky) 
He has a Dogmatic headcollar - now that DID stop him pulling AS MUCH. But - he now has a whopping scar over his nose from him scratching at it to get it off. Might sound controversial, but We let his nose heal, and tried it again. He didn't paw at it but he discovered if he walks at a slant, he can still pull. He also love/hates cars, and lunges so the headcollar he was pivoting.

Basically, I want to train him so he doesn't need 'gadgets'. It's possible, right? 

When I click (when I can, sometimes both hands are on the lead) he's at my side, level with me.

I will watch that video, and read through the one hundred peck thing when this dog isn't DETERMINED to make me play!

Also, does anyone else find that the quality of the first walk of the day determines the general mood of the day? This morning's walk was rubbish (poo bag split on me, we both ended up covered in it and had to go home to have a quick clean up tmi right?), and I don't think it's a coincidence that Finn has been a bloody nightmare. Extremely mouthy, to the point of growling. We'd improve on this massively, so it feels a bit


----------



## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

It does get better @AsahiGo but it takes a *long* time. Tilly was the absolute worst she really was was awful. Im sure a lot of the hours i put in were fruitless because i am an amateur handler and my timing is off a lot of the time.

Just to give you an idea of how long it took though. I think i started when she was about 4 months and did about 15 mins *every* day without fail on heelwork using flat collar and training lead mainly. I tried slip lead and got bad friction burns, she was that strong!

I had her on a gentle leader if i needed to go anywhere so the flat lead was training time only and i never allowed her to pull on it.

I didnt see proper improvement until february this year when @Sairy and @Dogloverlou caused (finally) a lightbulb moment: improve tilly's eye contact with me was essential and key.

On rough calculations, adding up the practice done at classes and on our own, i would guess about 200 solid hours of heelwork practice!

And she isnt perfect outside by any means. But she is plenty good enough.

Maybe @Sairy will revive her training thread when she has time in the future (only another 10 or 12 yrs then) as it was sairy that got me started on rally o and interested in heelwork at all.

She is one of my most influential trainers!


----------



## Guest (Oct 4, 2019)

@tabelmabel Do you mind if I ask you about the slip leash?

Family members and street experts have both told me to get a choke chain. I don't like them, never used them, wouldn't have a clue how to. Someone else (a mate who has a dalmation) uses a slip leash and has no problems. How did you find using it? Do you like it? Would you recommend? I'm not going to go out and buy one straight away, but it is something I've thought about.

I'll put in the hours. We've got a small green in front of our house which I now use as our training ground! For leash walking only. It's totally boring, so he doesn't get distracted. We keep it very brief - probably about two laps at a time, a few times a day. Then wedo our 'proper walks' two minimum, sometimes a third.

My hands are shredded from the lead and I actually broke my little finger from the lead squeezing it so much when I had to quickly wrap it around my hand because of a car/lunging.

Finn also sounds like a 50 a day smoker. His tongue goes blue, eyes bulge, froths at mouth. Even when we're at a standstill, he'll still have times where he's still going at it.

We actually got a front ring harness (heard he cant pull as much, he did!), we had it properly fitted and he managed to slam on the brakes and shoot back out of it!

We won't be entering any obedience competitions, but I would like us to walk without injury!


----------



## Guest (Oct 4, 2019)

Sorry, in regards to asking you about the slip lead, I meant if it didn't hurt your hands, would you like it? Did it had a good effect on Tilly?


----------



## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

I think, like any tool, slip leads are great in the right hands. Professional hands! My friend loves them for her collies - they dont pull at all and she does agility with them. She finds them quick and easy to slip on and off her dogs, great she says when her hands are numb with cold. Her dogs literally walk into the open loop.

In professional hands, fantastic. I have had gundog trainers pop a slip lead on tilly and had her walking perfectly to heel instantly by one or two quick pops on the lead.

Because their timing is perfect. So one or two well timed pops and she was walking like a pro.

But i could not achieve that result.

So, in my hands, useless.

I liked the gentle leader as a tool. Under no illusion about its gentleness but it helped me.

In the end though, it honestly was sairy, dogloverlou, a clicker, flat collar and lead and patience that cracked it for us.


----------



## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

AsahiGo said:


> Did it had a good effect on Tilly?


No. Not in my hands. But in professional hands, yes


----------



## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

At the start of sairy's training, she was better off lead but by the end, we had progress on lead.


----------



## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

This took a lot of work. Really did!


----------



## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Interesting to see, as she is better than this now. At the time, i was amazed we had managed this!


----------



## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

Please don't fall in to the trap of thinking a piece of equipment/lead/head halter etc...will help - it takes consistent, clear training to see results.

Head halters are often sold as quick fixes - because as you found out, dog's tend to hate them because they aren't conditioned to be comfortable wearing them first. That's not solving the pulling issue IMO, like you also found out most dogs will either injure themselves or continue to pull anyway. Same happens with most tools when they aren't used correctly.

Think of it as you could be in a hospital with all the latest equipment but it's useless to you if you don't know how to use it correctly - or worse potentially dangerous. Dogs pulling either by themselves or by using a slip lead or choke chain incorrectly - they bruise the dog's throat and have the potential to cause long term damage if the dog is constantly pulling.

I like harnesses with good shoulder clearance - gives me more control and evens the pressure when she used to pull. Teaching a dog to give in to pressure applied on a harness is an excellent way to teach a dog to walk nicely - you're helping the dog understand what you do want them to do when they feel that pressure, rather than pull against it like they naturally want to.


----------



## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

ShibaPup said:


> Head halters are often sold as quick fixes


I liked the gentle leader and had it on both my dogs. Though both dogs hated it with a passion!

For murphy, a couple of months on the leader and that was him - he walked beautifully to heel from 6 months. Im sure this could have been achieved other ways but, as a quick fix tool, it did the job very well.

For tilly, the leader did not help her walk to heel long term at all *but* it was extremely effective at keeping her to heel when she was wearing it. This allowed me to take her to school (for example) on time without her pulling me over, jumping at any dog or person and it kept her in the correct position at my side.

No way could i have taken her anywhere on a harness.

In training classes, tilly was so awful on lead we had to sit out of certain exercises (any heelwork or weave exercise) as she was straining and lunging at other dogs.

3 sessions using the leader in class fixed that. Yes, it did close her down, suppressed that energy. But it allowed me to get the message through that this class was not playtime.

She was a different dog after that. Took the leader off and never looked back. After weeks of sitting on the side, she could join in everything and is really good now.

So, ime, these things *do *work as a quick fix. And can be extremely useful.


----------



## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

tabelmabel said:


> I liked the gentle leader and had it on both my dogs. Though both dogs hated it with a passion!
> 
> For murphy, a couple of months on the leader and that was him - he walked beautifully to heel from 6 months. Im sure this could have been achieved other ways but, as a quick fix tool, it did the job very well.
> 
> ...


I've tried to word this over and over again - failed miserably, please don't take this personally. Everyone has their own experiences, wants and needs 

People want different things - some people want those instant results.

Personally I prefer to work with my dog - ensure she's happy and comfortable throughout as much as possible, provide a good environment for her to learn.
Shutting down a dog isn't my aim, nor do I want it as part of my training - I had a bad experience when Lily was a puppy 'trainers' shut her down to try and teach her, I never went back and perhaps I'm biased after such an experience. Without a collar and lead those 'trainers' couldn't have done anything.

I have been embarrassed by Lily's behaviour, I've had to sit outside, I've had to get her home asap when she has been a tit, I've cried with humiliation and frustration all when she was a pup and teen but we've worked through it together - sure it takes time but for me the end results are much better, it provides a more reliable behaviour that I can depend on without the use for tools, what happens if they break or get lost?


----------



## Guest (Oct 4, 2019)

Thanks for replying guys, I'll watch all the videos in a bit and reply properly.

Don't worry - I'm not planning on kitting him out in chokes/slip leads.


----------



## Guest (Oct 4, 2019)

@tabelmabel - so next week you can come and teach Finn and I?!

Really impressive. I can only hope one day we walk as well as that.

@ShibaPup - what you said makes sense to me. I'd rather just stick to basics now. I tried the halti thing as it worked with my Labradors years ago - naively overlooked that all dogs are different.

We've just got back from a walk. Near roads at the beginning he was 'a handful', but in the middle (quieter area) I had to lift the lead up as it was dragging! I kept stopping when he pulled and he got the hint quickly. Bit of a pain on the way back, busy roads again, but not as bad as the start. Small steps, but still an achievement!


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Sorry, I just breezed through this thread quickly, but I saw a couple things that I thought I could help with, so will just address those. If I get a chance over the weekend I'll do a more thorough reply 



AsahiGo said:


> He 'plays me up' more than my husband - I'm a push over. Or pull - over. I think that's more appropriate in this context. A few other dog walkers have told me 'he's taking the mick out of you!', but I feel like a fraud being 'firmer' or 'more strict'.


I wouldn't take it personally, but yes, he has probably figured out what works with you and what doesn't. Dogs pull for all sorts of reasons, we feeble humans walk way too slow, smells and sights are interesting, they want to go *here* not *there*....
He's not trying to annoy you and pull, he just knows that when you have his leash he can pull.

It's upsetting to owners, but often their dogs do behave better with others. I had a young doberman on leash, big boy, and he tried two times to jerk the leash on me like he does with his owners. The first time he caught me off guard and managed to get to where he was headed (thus the behavior was rewarded). The second time I was ready for him, I didn't budge and told him I don't play that game. He accepted it from me absolutely fine. The third time he went to pull I reminded him, he caught himself and remembered it was me, not mom on the other end of the leash, and we had no further issues.
His poor mom won't have the same results. When I said "I don't play that game" he believed me. But his mom has allowed him to lunge, repeatedly, and if she were to say "nope, we're not doing that" he wouldn't believe her, because they have a long history of her allowing just that. Obviously the dog isn't thinking it through in those terms literally, but it's a good approximation of why dogs might do so much better for a trainer than for their owners.



kimthecat said:


> A clicker is a useful tool if used correctly . Where is he when you click ? make sure it is when he is by your side.


 Yes, absolutely. How are you using the clicker @AsahiGo ? It's not meant to distract the dog from pulling, but to reward position, or, if you watch the video on giving in to leash pressure, reward the behavior when he hits the end of the leash.



AsahiGo said:


> Family members and street experts have both told me to get a choke chain. I don't like them, never used them, wouldn't have a clue how to. Someone else (a mate who has a dalmation) uses a slip leash and has no problems. How did you find using it? Do you like it? Would you recommend? I'm not going to go out and buy one straight away, but it is something I've thought about.


Please don't consider a choke chain or slip lead. Slip leads do have their place, but you say Finn is already suffering physical discomfort (and it sounds like injuries) from pulling. A slip lead will just exacerbate these issues.
There are all sorts of important structures in a dog's neck. Not just airways, but the vascular system, you're restricting blood flow to the brain as that slip lead tightens. Even flat collars can damage the thyroid, the trachea (tracheal collapse and laryngeal paralysis). I would avoid, avoid, avoid, a slip lead or choke chain in general, but especially with a strong puller.

A lot of pulling is simple oppositional reflex. All animals do this. The horse that is standing on your foot and you push with your body and all that happens is he pushes back? That's oppositional reflex in action. In the same way oppositional reflex will actually propel a dog forward the more you pull back.

IMO the best way to work on pulling is two fold. Figure out what is motivating the dog to pull, and teach the dog an alternate behavior when he hits the end of the leash. A lot of pulling training focuses on teaching the dog a position, but being at your side in heel is for most dogs way less exciting than all the other stuff they want to do on walks, no matter how good the treats. But, if you use the tightening of the leash as a cue for an alternate behavior - as in the video on giving in to leash pressure, and reward that cue with what the dog really wants to do, you get much better results.

For example if you have a nose driven dog who pulls to smells, teach giving in to leash pressure and try to incorporate rewarding that behavior with opportunities to sniff, or even better, finding good sniff spots and pointing them out. You end up with a dog much more likely to engage with you 'cause you might point out a good place to sniff.


----------



## Guest (Oct 4, 2019)

Thank you for getting back to me. I'm going to have to re-read it as well as everyone elses. So if I don't respond to something, i'm not trying to be rude, I've missed it!

Our routine is a bit like this - 

He yanks ahead, I stop, and I hold that position until he wanders back to me. Only when he stays next to me for more than a couple of seconds, I click offer a treat (if it's an exciting place, he will refuse treats), praise, off we go.

I wait a little bit to make sure he's next to me, as a couple of times he's wandered back very causually and chilled - and darted behind me and started pulling back the way we came! So I try not to let him 'play me'. If I can't click straight away, I don't bother with it. I'd rather not confuse him. 

Does that sound alright? It's hard to put into words.

I haven't watched the first vid ^ with the leash pressure. I want to e able to concentrate on it (getting tired). But I will.

I've got my work cut out with me - I know he knows I'm a soft touch. Another example, Finn will patiently wait in the hallway whilst other half gets his shoes on, gets the lead, bags etc, takes AGES, and Finn will sit and wait sweeping the floor with a waggy tail. Husband LEAVES THE HOUSE before the dog. With me, if I look at Finn, he will body slam me out of excitement (omg were going outttttt hurry hurry), he will be on my shoulders, he will be jumping four feet into the air in excitement. I'm knocked out the way as he flies out the door... My 'Sit, wait' is pathetic. So I know it's me that has to change the most.

Whenever someone uses a tool or technique I've heard of, or been recommended I always ask about it. The family member who recommended the chain used one on his former dog and often says how he regretted it  He hasn't sold it to me. 

Finn is a sniffy dog, I'm trying to figure how I could use that as a treat - I keep banging on about Sprinkles that another poster told me about. We love that game - could that be incorporated? I find it hard to treat him on walks, when the walk is the ultimate treat. He spent the first ten months of his life inside so being outside is hard to beat. We went out when it was raining and he didn't seem to know what it is.

I don't want to damage my dog in anyway, and hearing him wheeze is friggin horrible, just like him cutting hi nose trying to get his headcollar off (you can see the pink scar by his nose in my avatar). I don't mind taking loads of time to do it right. I'm sure Finn will like the extra jaunts out of the house!


----------



## Guest (Oct 4, 2019)

I have NO IDEA why there are so many confused emojis at the start of that post! PLEASE DISCARD THAT LOL


----------



## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

ShibaPup said:


> I've tried to word this over and over again - failed miserably, please don't take this personally. Everyone has their own experiences, wants and needs


Thanks for writing sensitively with my feelings in mind

No offence taken at all! I just find on these kind of threads, we get a lot of responses like dont use this, that and the other from people who have either not tried using the tool ( or maybe just arent prepared to admit they have tried using it!) Until you have personally road tested all these things, it's not prudent to dismiss them out of hand imo.

As an amateur handler that has tried slip lead and headcollar, i am just reporting what i found. And, no doubt about it, i found the head collar excellent!

Had it got lost, i would have got another asap! I still had to put the hours in with tilly. It didnt teach her to walk to heel but sometimes you need to get places in a hurry before your dog is trained and it is excellent as a tool for that.

Tilly just couldnt have walked anywhere on a harness - she really was airborne at the end of a leash. For a small dog, she is _strong!
_
The slip lead is easy to put on and off, but i certainly didnt find it useful as a training tool.

The giving into leash pressure vid clip so often posted on here i couldnt get working for me at all tbh.

Clicker and flat collar/lead combo with the stop method worked the best. Eventually!


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

tabelmabel said:


> No offence taken at all! I just find on these kind of threads, we get a lot of responses like dont use this, that and the other from people who have either not tried using the tool ( or maybe just arent prepared to admit they have tried using it!) Until you have personally road tested all these things, it's not prudent to dismiss them out of hand imo.


It can be equally not prudent to recommend a tool that is known to cause irreversible damage.

The dog in question is already scarred from the head collar. This is a dog who will pull through discomfort and an owner who is not sure of how to prevent the pulling. A dog like this on a slip lead could do irreversible damage to his trachea, larynx, thyroid, etc.

I'm not a tool fascist. If someone is comfortable using a tool and it works for them great. And we absolutely need to be able to control our dogs and if you need a specific piece of equipment to keep you and your dog safe, go for it. 
But just be educated on exactly what that tool is doing. The good and the bad and the potential fall-out from all of it.

As for large and/or strong dogs, well, that too needs some perspective. I love Suzanne Clothier's little blurb on controlling big dogs. 
https://suzanneclothier.com/article/much-dogs-cooperation-weigh/


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

AsahiGo said:


> Please tell me it gets better lol?


It depends.

You put in the work, you discover why your dog pulls and it will get better.

Using tools will not solve the problem.

Our Staffy pulls because she's anxious. It has taken me some time to work around that. I didn't use a sliplead or a headcollar.

It depends really on whether you're prepared to work through the problem and find the solution or whether you're wanting a quick, minimum effort fix.


----------



## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> It can be equally not prudent to recommend a tool that is known to cause irreversible damage.


Oh no! Please don't anybody think i am recommending anything! I'm not. I am just reporting my own experience with my own dogs. Very limited. I only have 2 dogs.

I just feel sometimes what i would like to see on these threads is a mix of "i tried this and it didnt work because . . ."

Or "i tried this and it did work because . . "

whereas what is more often the case is that some of the people commenting on this or that have never tried what they are advising against or for.

So i am not at all trying to provoke any argument by saying that the giving into leash pressure vid didnt help me in the slightest. Im just stating what i tried. What worked, what didnt work.

I'm sure it can work, and i was doing it all wrong. But then im sure the slip lead can work too and i was doing that all wrong!

I am well aware of the research on the gentle leader, but it doesnt fit my own experience. I know full well my dogs didnt like it and that it works by exerting pressure and causing pain. But it was a tool i used for a short time and was incredibly effective. Has it inflicted long lasting psychological harm? Maybe. No symptoms evident though.

All i have really said is that i have seen a slip lead used on tilly effectively. True. But i couldnt get the same result. So i ditched it.



O2.0 said:


> But just be educated on exactly what that tool is doing.


Does anyone on pf read and overthink things more than me, i wonder?! Yes, absolutely and wholeheartedly agree with this.

I am of a different view than you, which is ok i hope: i believe many of these tools whether it be slip lead, prong collar or even electric collar can be very effective _in the right hands_ by someone who is spot on with their timing.

In the wrong hands, of course different story altogether.

ETA

I have now had a look at the suzanne clothier link @O2.0 and yes, it's great and yes, that is how i got Tilly walking well in the end. When she wanted to pull, she was not engaged with me at all. She was scanning the environment; getting her focus on me was the turning point.

But i had been told that by a trainer a good 6 months before i actually worked it out for myself - it just went in one ear and out the other.
And im not the only amateur handler that fails to get these positive only dog training methods working.
I have no doubt whatsover that you yourself could have taken tilly at the age of 8months when she was very strong and not at all focused on me, and had her working with you inside an hour.

But you underestimate (i think) your skill level that has been built up over many years of experience with many different dogs.

Like anything, training a dog is a real skill and it takes years of practice to get to the stage of being able to take *any *dog and connect with it effectively. Realistically, something few of us on here will achieve.

It would be really interesting to know how many amateur handlers on pf (those that have had only one or two dogs over a lifetime) have had success using the giving in to leash pressure technique and how long it took, how many used a leash pop method and time for success, how many used a tool, and how many have dogs that do not walk well to heel still.

I am 100% with you on your belief that you need to engage and work with your dog. And i completely see how that is the kindest, most effective method.

But when you need to get home fast with your pulling dog, pram, bag of shopping and toddler mid-meltdown, a tool or leash pop method is probably the one of choice for the frustrated amateur handler!

To sum up then, i am all in favour and 100% understand the methods promoted on pf but they are not without their drawbacks imo (needing a sensitive, skilled handler with time on their hands)

From watching many threads on pf (not specifically this one) the general message seems to be use the giving in to leash pressure method, it works best.

And i dont disagree with that message at all.

I just think that for the people that come on here really struggling to control strong dogs will have difficulty getting that method working for them.
So a range of methods could be usefully put forward.

@AsahiGo really do hope you stick around and say which method you are going with and stay right up until the end of the process when you have your dog walking nicely at your side because he wants to be there. See if you can beat my 14mnth time!

Edited to highlight the word 'any' to make meaning clearer


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

tabelmabel said:


> I have no doubt whatsover that you yourself could have taken tilly at the age of 8months when she was very strong and not at all focused on me, and had her working with you inside an hour.


When my late great dane bitch was 8 months I had managed to instill in her that pulling was not allowed, so instead she would go airborne like a pogo stick. It was ridiculous and not a picture of dog engaged with handler  
Experience doesn't mean you won't struggle with your dog. Experience just means you know the idiot teenager will eventually grow up.



tabelmabel said:


> Like anything, training a dog is a real skill and it takes years of practice to get to the stage of being able to take any dog and connect with it effectively. Realistically, something few of us on here will achieve.





tabelmabel said:


> getting her focus on me was the turning point.


Okay, these two quotes together are interesting to me because on the one hand you say that few people achieve the level of training needed to get the dog to connect, yet for you, the turning point in pulling was getting your dog to focus on you (connect with you). So not only did you achieve what you say is so difficult, but it was the key to getting your dog to stop pulling 



tabelmabel said:


> And im not the only amateur handler that fails to get these positive only dog training methods working.


Just to be pedantic, no dog is trained with positive only methods if what you mean by positive only is no punishment. Because to be even more pedantic, positive only would also include positive punishment.

But no, Suzanne Clothier doesn't advocate no punishment (nor do I). What she does advocate is relationship-based training. Because as you yourself put it so well, getting the dog to engage with you is the key. Anything that would make a dog disengage is detrimental to the overall process. And make no mistake, when a dog is experiencing pain and/or discomfort, they're also disengaging with the handler.

To go back to experience, when my Breeze was being a giant idiot teenager and hurling herself in to space because a leaf that blew across the path could have been a squirrel, yes, I could have given her a good pop on the leash and gotten her to stop it. But experience has taught me that while the pop might work in the moment, there will be more leaves, more actual squirrels, and teenage dogs have the attention span of gnats, and thus there will be more pops. Every pop means potential for punishment callous (the dog habituates to the punishment), more chance for the dog to tune me out because who wants to engage with someone who's no fun like that? And more chance to do actual physical damage to my dog in the way of long term conditions like laryngeal paralysis and tracheal collapse. 
So instead I had her on a body harness that gave me good control, and I would either wait her out - wait for her brain to realize the leaf was not a squirrel, wait for her to remember I'm pretty interesting too. Or I would make myself interesting to her. This could include jumping around like a mad woman myself and engaging her in a game of tug (fulfilling her predatory need), if it was sniffing I could have found an interesting clump of grass and shown her that so that she associates me with finding what she's trying to pull to get.

Create enough of a history of you the handler being a source entertainment (and safety) and it is a thousand times easier to get the dog to engage with you. 
Create enough of a history of you the handler being a source of punishment (and/or confusion) and it is a thousand times harder to get the dog to engage with you.

Personally I get frustrated when inexperienced owners are told to reach for a tool the dog finds punishing because I know in the long run that will make that handler's job to get the dog to engage so very much harder. Especially with less biddable breeds. 
So yes, I would rather see an inexperienced handler go the route of 'positive only' even if it seems more difficult. Because in the long run, it's much easier to get a dog to work for you if they don't associate uncool stuff with you.


----------



## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

AsahiGo said:


> @tabelmabel - so next week you can come and teach Finn and I?!
> 
> Really impressive. I can only hope one day we walk as well as that.
> 
> ...


Just wondering, do you use both hands? My trainer favours this method and it does give you better control, you need a lead with a handle in the middle so that you can shorten the lead as an when needed. My pup is a lot smaller than yours so your dog's needs will be different, but we got this one from Amazon and it looks a bit wierd but it's brilliant, dog seems to like it too it comes in other colours, reasonable price too - hope this helps -
*MEKEET 6 FT Dog Rope Lead, Double Soft Padded Handle Dog Leash, Highly Reflective Dog Lead Threads for Puppy and Medium Large Dogs(Black)*
*I also use a harness as my pup doesn't walk with a collar - long story*


----------



## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> Okay, these two quotes together are interesting to me because on the one hand you say that few people achieve the level of training needed to get the dog to connect


Should have boldened the word 'any' im thinking of professional dog trainers here - whatever their method of choice can take a dog, any dog, that they havent met before and they can engage with that dog instantly and have it working with them. That's the bit i will never be able to do.

That takes years and years of experience.

I was listening to a radio discusion just the other day because Scotland is set to bring in a bill to make smacking children illegal.

And people phoned in annoyed that it took away their parental rights and some were very much pro this short sharp shock treatment.

Now i have got years and years of experience with babies and children. I was annoyed once with my first child and smacked her. She didnt listen, that made me angry so i smacked again.

I realised then that one of the great dangers with smacking is that if it doesnt work, your options with it are limited - what can you do but to smack harder and shout louder?

I never smacked any of my other children, ever. And i never needed to. I have worked with many tens of children (poss into the low hundreds now!) and i have definitely got the 'knack'

You could give me any baby or child and i guarantee i could have them settled, engaged and happy very quickly because i have vast stores of knowledge built up over years of experience to draw on and my timing and ability to tune in and read exactly what is needed is spot on.

Once you can tune in and engage with a child, boundaries are needed but physical punishment never is.

So i can properly empathise with your frustration at those that never stick with anything long enough in dog training to properly embrace the methods you have really got to grips with.

Just as i look at parents who have such difficult and stressful relationships with their young kids and think 'it really doesnt have to be this way, you are making this so difficult'

But i know people just have to learn these things for themselves really, from their own experience.

Im afraid, at the moment, if i had another dog that pulled, i would get another gentle leader on it.

Just as those who have smacked their kids and now have kids that have grown into perfectly functional members of society will continue to say they smacked and it never harmed.

I see exactly what you are saying and why. I just have my doubts that your average, short of time and knowledge pet dog owner is ever going to get there.

I mean, it took a long long time for things to dawn on me and i have got bags of time on my hands for my dog.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

AsahiGo said:


> Thanks for replying guys, I'll watch all the videos in a bit and reply properly.
> 
> Don't worry - I'm not planning on kitting him out in chokes/slip leads.


Glad to hear this.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

tabelmabel said:


> I see exactly what you are saying and why. I just have my doubts that your average, short of time and knowledge pet dog owner is ever going to get there.


I would rather give the average, short of time and knowledge pet dog owner the information, tools, and support to approach problems in a relationship based way, than assume they won't and not even try 

In the end owners are going to do what owners are going to do and that's fine. I don't profess to have all the right answers. 
But if someone wants to try things a different way, and need some support in doing so, I'm happy to offer that help where I can.


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

DanWalkersmum said:


> Just wondering, do you use both hands? My trainer favours this method and it does give you better control, you need a lead with a handle in the middle so that you can shorten the lead as an when needed. My pup is a lot smaller than yours so your dog's needs will be different, but we got this one from Amazon and it looks a bit wierd but it's brilliant, dog seems to like it too it comes in other colours, reasonable price too - hope this helps -
> *MEKEET 6 FT Dog Rope Lead, Double Soft Padded Handle Dog Leash, Highly Reflective Dog Lead Threads for Puppy and Medium Large Dogs(Black)*
> *I also use a harness as my pup doesn't walk with a collar - long story*


I don't use 6 ft leads only 2 metre ones for my dogs. and like you use both hands to control them. I hold both leads in one hand and can either shorten one or the other depending on which dog I need to correct, or both if I need to correct both of them!

@AsahiGo said "I've got my work cut out with me - I know he knows I'm a soft touch. Another example, Finn will patiently wait in the hallway whilst other half gets his shoes on, gets the lead, bags etc, takes AGES, and Finn will sit and wait sweeping the floor with a waggy tail. Husband LEAVES THE HOUSE before the dog. With me, if I look at Finn, he will body slam me out of excitement (omg were going outttttt hurry hurry), he will be on my shoulders, he will be jumping four feet into the air in excitement. I'm knocked out the way as he flies out the door... My 'Sit, wait' is pathetic. So I know it's me that has to change the most."

As someone who's well past her sell by date the last thing I need in my life are two dogs who are over excited before we even start our walk!

One rule I've always had with my dogs is that they don't "go walkies" if they get too excited whilst I'm getting my coat on. If they do then off comes my coat, or even their harnesses if we've got that far, and I go and do something else for 10 minutes or so until they've calmed down. Same as when I'm opening the front gate. Any bouncing around and dashing through the open gate before, means they get taken back home again. Generally speaking I've found it takes about a month a numerous cups of coffee for them to learn you're dead serious!


----------



## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

tabelmabel said:


> I see exactly what you are saying and why. I just have my doubts that your *average, short of time and knowledge pet dog owner *is ever going to get there.


That's me. Lily is my first dog - she's two. I work full time, my life is hectic, no previous doggy experience - only poor advice. Time with Lily for the most part is my relaxation.

I seriously thought I was raising a monster of a dog - thanks to the reassurance on here, I stuck with it. Now I couldn't be happier, we have a strong relationship, good trust and communication and I think that lays a solid foundation for other behaviours or for things that happen out of the ordinary.

The other day I had paramedics come into my home - I didn't have time to put Lily away since it was an emergency and she didn't have a collar on. Lily is ruled by her nose and for a moment I thought how on earth am I going to manage her, she loves people and all the new smells, equipment they had I knew Lily would lose her little mind with excitement.
We've never trained under such distractions, or around people with uniforms and various equipment - I tentatively ask her to sit and hope! She responds to my sit and to my wait, she struggled, got rather wiggly and restless so I switched it up and kept it quick fire cues, while they were going in and out, she stayed with me, in full eye sight of them. I couldn't have been prouder. At the end I released her to go say hello to one of them, with that person's permission. 
Something like that IMO wouldn't have been possible if I relied on equipment - or maybe I got lucky, either way I'm not complaining :Hilarious


----------



## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Well i cant argue with that @O2.0 !

And of course i only speak for myself when i say that the thing that helped me more than anything on pf was sairy's training thread which of course actually supported me in giving me that very regular feedback and got me to hang in there long enough to see a result.

And the other very good thing was seeing the vids from pf members with their own dogs at amazingly high levels of heelwork.

Do you remember that suggestion i made once that it would be nice if some of the more experienced forum members that would be prepared to support others could be highlighted so that we knew that we could turn to them for support and advice? And it was met with derision, scorn and a barrage of sarcastic comments?!

Well, that was a pity really because that would be more helpful i think than these linked kikopup vids.

Especially for heelwork where you do almost need that daily support and feedback.

I appreciate sairy gave up a lot of her time and i will be grateful to her for ever more as she helped me so much.

Is there any way you would think about doing something similar?

I also am a member of a guinea pig forum where there are highlighted members willing to help with health advice and very knowlegable. It just works on there. But doesnt seem to work here.

What we have here is links to positive training methods but few members actually talking us through exactly how they found application of the technique combined with a rapid close down of anyone who mentions anything else that doesnt fit this positive only way.

Im sure it could be done better somehow.


----------



## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

ShibaPup said:


> Something like that IMO wouldn't have been possible if I relied on equipment - or maybe I got lucky, either way I'm not complaining :Hilarious


That is fantastic - and an interesting example because the one bit of equipment (tool, even) that seems to be rated very highly on here is a lead! And a collar and lead would have been helpful tools in the situation you describe above. (Im not in any way trying to downplay the excellence of your dog's achievement, far from it)

So we get these threads where people are annoyed and irritated because someone is walking a dog down the street without a lead on.

And i even remember a whole thread about the irresponsibility of owners who actually take their dogs out and forget to take a lead. I remember that, because the very day that topic came up, i took my dogs out in the car and arrived at walk location with no leads!

It is good to hear though how the forum has helped you, and it has also really helped me too.

Out of interest, though, in the days before you had got your heelwork going well, how did you manage? Did you leave your dog at home, or take her in the car and then go off lead?

Maybe this is the crux of what im not getting and, indeed, why i liked the gentle leader _in combination with _the longer term clicker and stop method.

I just could not have walked tilly on lead and harness (unless anti pull harness which is another aversive) without the gentle leader.

I think if you can provide that missing answer in there for me, i might actually be able to synchronise with the pf way of thinking!

I just sometimes, well quite often actually, feel that there isnt a lot of room for lots of different opinions and methods on here. And funnily enough, on these training kinds of threads where i want to hear more anecdotal stories, we get linked articles

And the threads like spaying where i want the research and facts, we get the anecdotal stories!

Very topsy turvey!


----------



## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

[


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

ShibaPup said:


> That's me. Lily is my first dog - she's two. I work full time, my life is hectic, no previous doggy experience - only poor advice. Time with Lily for the most part is my relaxation.
> 
> I seriously thought I was raising a monster of a dog - thanks to the reassurance on here, I stuck with it. Now I couldn't be happier, we have a strong relationship, good trust and communication and I think that lays a solid foundation for other behaviours or for things that happen out of the ordinary.
> 
> ...


I'm so glad you posted as you were one of the people I was thinking about when I said I would rather give new owners the information than assume they won't do the work. Because you very much did do the work and Lily is a testament to your dedication  
I remember well how worried you were with her puppy biting and other issues, and major kudos to you for trusting a bunch of strangers on the internet that your dog really would grow up  
And how lovely to hear about Lily behaving so well with strangers in the house. Those moments when you see all the training coalesce are priceless 



tabelmabel said:


> Do you remember that suggestion i made once that it would be nice if some of the more experienced forum members that would be prepared to support others could be highlighted so that we knew that we could turn to them for support and advice? And it was met with derision, scorn and a barrage of sarcastic comments?!


Oh gosh I don't remember that at all!



tabelmabel said:


> Is there any way you would think about doing something similar?


Put up training videos? 
I've spammed this forum for years with videos of my dogs and others training. Or maybe I'm not understanding what you're asking? 
@Sairy is an incredible asset to the dog training forum as are many other members. I think the forum overall does a good job of sharing information and supporting training goals 



tabelmabel said:


> Out of interest, though, in the days before you had got your heelwork going well, how did you manage? Did you leave your dog at home, or take her in the car and then go off lead?
> 
> Maybe this is the crux of what im not getting and, indeed, why i liked the gentle leader _in combination with _the longer term clicker and stop method.
> 
> I just could not have walked tilly on lead and harness (unless anti pull harness which is another aversive) without the gentle leader.


I know you weren't asking me, but just wanted to clarify. 
There is using a training tool as a crutch while you work through issues, and there is using a training tool as a quick fix without addressing issues. 
The tool itself should be something that gives you the control that you need, that also works for the dog. 
Some dogs absolutely hate head halters no matter how thoroughly you desensitize them to is and how carefully you introduce them. 
Some dogs can't stand body harnesses because they're touch sensitive and don't like having something touching so much of their bodies. 
Some dogs are a thousand times happier wearing a pinch collar than a head halter. 
So you let the dog guide you. If your dog accepts the head halter after careful introduction and that works as your control tool until you establish the LLW, great. If the dog shuts down at the sight of the head halter, that's probably not the best tool.

I personally prefer body harnesses with front or side attachments to control big dogs, mainly because the injury potential is the lowest, especially if the harness is properly fitted. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with using whatever you need to with the expectation that it is a temporary crutch, not your final solution. Sorry if I was not clear about that.

When our dane bitch was an idiot teenager I did plan outings carefully. If it was something that I knew required my full attention on her, the other dogs stayed home, or I would bring help. Or she stayed home. I just gauge what my capabilities are and the expectation of the outing. 
She wore a body harness. 
I sometimes used a leash wrap on her, which could be aversive, but for some dogs it's calming in the way a thundershirt squeezing them is. For me it was simple control. I had more control over her with a leash wrap.


----------



## Guest (Oct 5, 2019)

@O2.0 I've bookmarked that link you put up. Oh, Finn could absolutely do himself harm in one, and as for me knowing how to stop him pulling - total greenhorn. I don't think for one minute TabelMabel was advocating a slipleash - just giving me an honest answer. I barely know how to use a collar and lead correctly!

@Rafa - I definitely don't want a quick fix. I'm lucky enough to have a lot of time on my hands, and I'm not too proud to seek help. As for the motivation behind his pulling - I *think* it's excitement and over-stimulation. But then I'm hazarding a guess. I haven't had him long, and I'd be a liar to say I completely know and understand him.

I don't think there's anything wrong with headcollars/harnesses and the like, if it means the dog can be walked more instead of 'can't take her out because - '. I just have a feeling it will be futile going through tool/gadget with Finn as it would just be masking the problem - and one day I'd like my kids to be able to walk him!

@DanWalkersmum aha, how I hold the leash... Everyway imaginable! I hold the 'handle' in my right hand and middle of the lead in my left. Well that's the plan. In an ideal world. Sort of. If there is one 'tool' I've felt I should change, it's the lead. The one he has seems to long for a start - I can't remember how long it is, but it's leather, and to walk him alongside a road (he love/hates cars, different issue!) I end up wrapping it around my hand a few times. Not nice, broken fingers. thanks for the recommendation, a similar lead has been added to my Amazon basket. I'll use his longer lead for times when he can go and potter around a field. More freedom for him.

@kimthecat - definitely no check chains. Just a prong collar and an electric one...

(I'm joking)

@Magyarmum - this is something i want to achieve! I've never declared 'waaaalkieeeeees!' God I don't need to! If I touch a shoe, WALK, if I get a jumper, WALK, if I breathe or look in his general direction, WALK. He gets so wound up, he gets mouthy (again seperate issue!) and makes those famous husky noises. Which is weird, as he barks aswell. However, we are making progress - when I take him for his first big walk, it is the law that I drink a coffee first. This is the ultimate rule lol. It took a few weeks of him headbutting the cup out of my hand to learn this, but now I enjoy a five minute cup whilst he sits and psyches me out with his eyes.

@ShibaPup is everything ok now? That's really nice to hear, about Lily, not the fact that you needed an ambulance at your home of course. Good dog  This forum has honestly helped Finn and I loads too. i read some of my first posts and cringed - getting the advice really helped. And it isn't judgemental either.

@tabelmabel - ahhhh I'm sorry if i caused you some, er, trouble (for want of a better term!). I read all of your replies - I've been following the whole thread. I hope I didn't put you in an uncomfortable position! And as for beating your 14month walking-to-heel - it's on! (this is where I hire a behind-the scenes super trainer )
I'll stick to what we're doing/trying to do(?). Tonnes of patience, a lot of repetition, copious amounts of treats and coffee to get us through, and maybe a bit of luck!. The only thing I will invest in is a different lead.
I think it'll be easier once I find out what makes Finn tick.

I don't think tabelmabel was in anyone advocating/endorsing any tool, I haven't been swayed one way or the other. I trust people to give a more honest answer or opinion on here, that's why I asked.

If you got to the end of this essay, thanks for all your support and help!


----------



## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

It is interesting for me to read through this thread regarding different ways people have achieved heelwork. What I do like about PF is that people really encourage TRAINING and not quick fixes. Even where tools are used these are alongside training. I am on several GSD facebook groups and every time someone asks for advice on how to stop their dog pulling approximately 90% of the comments simply tell the person to put a headcollar on the dog, even in cases where the dog is a young puppy. It does sadden me to think that a lot of people do not seem to want to put in the work to teach their dog.

To the OP I hope you manage to achieve what you are aiming for. I personally think that my dog walks better for me than for my OH, but I'm probably more stubborn and refuse to be pulled. I find that the very beginning of the walk (before we are even out of the front door) tends to set the tone for the whole walk.


----------



## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

O2.0 said:


> I'm so glad you posted as you were one of the people I was thinking about when I said I would rather give new owners the information than assume they won't do the work. Because you very much did do the work and Lily is a testament to your dedication
> I remember well how worried you were with her puppy biting and other issues, and major kudos to you for trusting a bunch of strangers on the internet that your dog really would grow up
> And how lovely to hear about Lily behaving so well with strangers in the house. Those moments when you see all the training coalesce are priceless
> 
> ...


Thanks for the compliment @O2.0 - I'm certainly feeling the love on this thread!


----------



## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

AsahiGo said:


> I'm sorry if i caused you some, er, trouble (for want of a better term!).


Ha ha not at all! There's nothing i like better than a bit of 'discussion' about a serious topic or a bit of banter on a lighthearted topic.

So, thank you @O2.0 for taking the time to reply to me properly on this





O2.0 said:


> I've spammed this forum for years with videos of my dogs and others training.


Not since ive been here, i dont think?

No, i mean do what sairy did. So, say for giving in to leash pressure maybe post up your own helpful tips, pitfalls, common mistakes and then invite anyone that wanted to try that method to post up their own efforts.

Or maybe even just have sticky threads on common training themes with support and helpful tips to help folk through.

Like the puppy support thread

But for house training, stop barking, pull on lead.

There must be better ways of organising things to help people in a supportive way.

Just a thought. @Sairy did an amazing job single handedly last time and it was such a popular thread. I loved it, i must say!



AsahiGo said:


> And as for beating your 14month walking-to-heel - it's on!


Good on ya



O2.0 said:


> There is using a training tool as a crutch while you work through issues, and there is using a training tool as a quick fix without addressing issues.


Correct. I dont think my argument is really with you after all

The only point i was really trying to make is that i often see things on pf about 'dont use this, it is so cruel'

And the people making the comments have never ever used the thing.

Or 'do it such and such a way'

And, when questioned, turns out they have no experience of what they are advising at all.

I am not particularly thinking of anyone or any comments on this specific thread. It is just a pf trend i notice

ETA looking back to see how we got started down this path, it all seemed to be after your comment about it 'being equally imprudent to recommend something without knowing exactly how it works' or words to that effect.

I wonder why you picked me up on that specific point, when i was never recommending anything anyway and it now emerges that we seem to have a similar point of view?

Surely, you know me well enough by now to know i put in tons of training with my dogs?! I love training!

And you cant have missed that i do love reading reseach too - you could not seriously have thought i put a gentle leader on my dogs without understanding how it worked, surely.

No. I think you just chucked down some bait to wind me up. And i fell for that one good and proper!

Have enjoyed it though; i do love to ramble on on any topic really, so this has nicely filled a rainy saturday afternoon for me

Edit again: sorry, complete misquote of your comment - what you actually say is 'a tool known to cause irreversible damage'

Is that known? This is where i would like linked research please on gentle leaders causing irreversible damage. Did you mean physical or psychological damage? Are there any robust, well constructed research studies to actually show that that is the case?

I need proper evidence to put me off the gentle leader!


----------



## Guest (Oct 5, 2019)

Sairy said:


> It is interesting for me to read through this thread regarding different ways people have achieved heelwork. What I do like about PF is that people really encourage TRAINING and not quick fixes. Even where tools are used these are alongside training. I am on several GSD facebook groups and every time someone asks for advice on how to stop their dog pulling approximately 90% of the comments simply tell the person to put a headcollar on the dog, even in cases where the dog is a young puppy. It does sadden me to think that a lot of people do not seem to want to put in the work to teach their dog.
> 
> To the OP I hope you manage to achieve what you are aiming for. I personally think that my dog walks better for me than for my OH, but I'm probably more stubborn and refuse to be pulled. I find that the very beginning of the walk (before we are even out of the front door) tends to set the tone for the whole walk.


That's definitely something I noticed quite early on, very pro-training. And lot's of different alternatives/options. And I think it's great that if someone doesn't know something, there will be a member that does (and is mentioned in!). There's a couple of other forums i'm a member of, not devoted to animals mind, and I wouldn't bother asking on there. The replies would be 'put a choke chain on it ("it" personal annoyance). I also appreciate the general tolerance, patience, and non-judgemental attitudes I've come across so far, because I can be an annoyance  I'm a bit panicky in real life. Shock, right?
ohhhh dh is definitely the stricter one. I'm the fun one. Which is nice, because with our kids, I'm the tyrant, and dh is the cool parent.

That last post took waaaay longer than it should, because Finn tried to bury me alive under toys. Failing getting me to play, he decided to sit on me and the laptop. Something else we need to work on...


----------



## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

AsahiGo said:


> That's definitely something I noticed quite early on, very pro-training. And lot's of different alternatives/options. And I think it's great that if someone doesn't know something, there will be a member that does (and is mentioned in!). There's a couple of other forums i'm a member of, not devoted to animals mind, and I wouldn't bother asking on there. The replies would be 'put a choke chain on it ("it" personal annoyance). I also appreciate the general tolerance, patience, and non-judgemental attitudes I've come across so far, because I can be an annoyance  I'm a bit panicky in real life. Shock, right?
> ohhhh dh is definitely the stricter one. I'm the fun one. Which is nice, because with our kids, I'm the tyrant, and dh is the cool parent.
> 
> That last post took waaaay longer than it should, because Finn tried to bury me alive under toys. Failing getting me to play, he decided to sit on me and the laptop. Something else we need to work on...


You sound a lot more positive now  I think your confidence shines through in this post. Well done.


----------



## Guest (Oct 5, 2019)

DanWalkersmum said:


> You sound a lot more positive now  I think your confidence shines through in this post. Well done.


Thank you very much! sometimes I just need some positive reinforcement of my own. Failing that, a verbal kick up the arse.


----------



## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

My Yorkie was dreadful at pulling. Although she is only tiny it wasn’t something I wanted as my older dog walks perfectly to heel. I went to training classes to work on her confidence and carried on as they both enjoyed going. It took time but eventually she got it and now walks to heel as well. 

The trainer used a double ended lead as she has to walk on a harness. However, as mentioned, it was getting her to really focus on me that made the real difference. My older dog is the complete opposite to her and really easy to train as he watches me intently. She had no focus at all and barely ever glanced at me. Once she learned to look at me to follow instructions it made a huge difference so I’d work on that alongside the heel work.


----------



## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Jobeth said:


> However, as mentioned, it was getting her to really focus on me that made the real difference.


This seems to be the key!


----------



## Guest (Oct 5, 2019)

@Jobeth I think it's cool that you took your little un to training classes to sort out the pulling, because I imagine a lot of people would've ignored it "only little, doesn't matter". I think it's far easier to find a mischievous smaller dog as they tend to get away with a lot more - can't do as much damage! or at least in the dogs I know.

Finn will check back on me when we're on walks where he's chilled out and not overwhelmed by dogs/cars/anything else. This mornings' walk was great; he only pulled when he seen another dog, other than that he was happy trotting through the grass and leaves, looking back to see if I'm still on the other end of the lead.


----------



## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

I’ve probably learnt more because of her as he is so no trouble at all. To reduce her anxiety on walks I was taught to block and avoid. The trainer took me out for a walk and talked through it. She was taught ‘switch’ to go to my other side if going round a corner so she never walked straight into another dog. Eventually she trusted that everything would be ok and now she only gets upset if an off lead dog runs at her. Luckily he doesn’t care so I can focus on her. It will get better and it is worth it.


----------



## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Did you manage to turn up any evidence to back up your statement that the gentle leader 'is known to cause irreversible damage' @O2.0 ? I would be interested to read it, and happy to revise my opinion in the light of any robusty constructed, evidence backed studies. Cheers


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

AsahiGo said:


> Our routine is a bit like this -
> 
> He yanks ahead, I stop, and I hold that position until he wanders back to me. Only when he stays next to me for more than a couple of seconds, I click offer a treat (if it's an exciting place, he will refuse treats), praise, off we go.
> 
> I wait a little bit to make sure he's next to me, as a couple of times he's wandered back very causually and chilled - and darted behind me and started pulling back the way we came! So I try not to let him 'play me'. If I can't click straight away, I don't bother with it. I'd rather not confuse him.


Is this asking too much, I wonder?

With Jack the second he relaxed and moved a paw in a backward motion he got an immediate acknowledgement and permission to continue. (This usually took less than 3 seconds I guess-then he was on his way again doing what he enjoyed.). As I said, I wasn't asking for a heel just a steady really.

If you're asking for several seconds of acquiescence, waiting for him to return to your side then waiting again before moving off I would think that might frustrate him, having the opposite effect?


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

tabelmabel said:


> Did you manage to turn up any evidence to back up your statement that the gentle leader 'is known to cause irreversible damage' @O2.0 ? I would be interested to read it, and happy to revise my opinion in the light of any robusty constructed, evidence backed studies. Cheers


Where did I say gentle leaders are known to cause irreversible damage?


----------



## Guest (Oct 7, 2019)

Lurcherlad said:


> Is this asking too much, I wonder?
> 
> With Jack the second he relaxed and moved a paw in a backward motion he got an immediate acknowledgement and permission to continue. (This usually took less than 3 seconds I guess-then he was on his way again doing what he enjoyed.). As I said, I wasn't asking for a heel just a steady really.
> 
> If you're asking for several seconds of acquiescence, waiting for him to return to your side then waiting again before moving off I would think that might frustrate him, having the opposite effect?


You could be right on this!


----------



## Guest (Oct 7, 2019)

Tbf though, we had ten minutes training on the boring green this afternoon, and he stayed by my side the whole time.He seen me pick up the clicker in the house and was constantly turning back to look at my hand.


----------



## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

AsahiGo said:


> Tbf though, we had ten minutes training on the boring green this afternoon, and he stayed by my side the whole time.He seen me pick up the clicker in the house and was constantly turning back to look at my hand.


I find this Loki likes the clicker we go out and use it most lunch times. He walked really nicely today loose lead by my side. We stopped to do some simple commands.

Then he saw a spaniel and forgot i existed....


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

AsahiGo said:


> He seen me pick up the clicker in the house and was constantly turning back to look at my hand.


Excellent! It sounds like he's happy to work with you, this is something you can really capitalize on 


AsahiGo said:


> I haven't watched the first vid ^ with the leash pressure. I want to e able to concentrate on it (getting tired). But I will.


Have you had a chance to watch it yet?
I'm going to reply below regarding giving in to leash pressure, hopefully it will make sense 



AsahiGo said:


> He yanks ahead, I stop, and I hold that position until he wanders back to me. Only when he stays next to me for more than a couple of seconds, I click offer a treat (if it's an exciting place, he will refuse treats), praise, off we go.


Okay, so here is what I would do.
Break it all down in to smaller chunks.

First behavior you want to teach him is what he should do when he hits the end of the leash. We tend to focus a lot in teaching leash manners on the *don't* aspect (don't pull) but I find it far easier to teach what *to* do. And what I want my dogs to do is give in to the leash pressure when they hit the end of the leash. Another way of thinking about it is to teach the dog to put slack in the leash.
Here you're not clicking for position. You're simply clicking for the dog giving in to the pressure on the leash. As soon as the leash slackens, no matter where the dog is, you click. I like to include an acknowledgement of me in the slackening, but you don't have to.
And honestly, you don't have to click either. A good or yes to mark the leash slackening works, then if the dog understands marker training, he will approach you anyway 'cause he knows he's going to get paid 

Teach the above in a low distraction environment, in your back yard, or even inside the house if you need to. Slowly add in distractions and more interesting environments. 
When he's automatically giving in to leash pressure without even thinking about it, _then_ you can work on where you want him to be. The "heel" aspect of walking. 
Personally I teach a competition heel, so when we're walking my dogs can pretty much be anywhere they want as long as they're not in my way and not pulling. 
If I need them to get closer to me I have a cue for that (right here) which simply means walk closer to me. But on regular walks I'm not interested in a perfect heel, just that they're not yanking me around or getting underfoot.

HTH


----------



## chichi12 (Oct 8, 2019)

My dog pulls too and weve tried all the (humane!!) techniques under the sun


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

chichi12 said:


> My dog pulls too and weve tried all the (humane!!) techniques under the sun


Consistently?


----------



## Guest (Oct 8, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> Excellent! It sounds like he's happy to work with you, this is something you can really capitalize on
> Have you had a chance to watch it yet?
> I'm going to reply below regarding giving in to leash pressure, hopefully it will make sense
> 
> ...


@Lurcherlad (and yourself) have both said that I'm maybe being a bit too much of a perfectionist - so as of last night, I praised as soon as he turned to come back, continued it today. I knooooow it's only 24 hours of doing this, but, IT'S WORKING. In fact, I actually came here to boast so -

FINN HAS STARTED STOPPING JUST BEFORE THE 'PULL' ON THE LEASH AND EITHER SITTING OR TURNING BACK!

It hasn't been a lot of walks, but, but! I'm very, very happy. There's almost always a bit of 'give' in the lead; he only times he has really pulled is when he saw a couple of dogs, and I managed to lead him away through distractions and high-piched baby talking (I know it's sickening).
I'm also MAKING HIM sit and wait before we open the front door; our porch is no longer a launching pad, and I'm no longer body-slammed out of the way. Again early days, it has made a whole difference to the walk (perhaps because I'm not disgruntled about being shoved into a shoe rack). Coincidence or not, I don't care, IT'S WORKING.

I've seen that video before and forgotten about it! I had to watch it a few times, pause, write notes (yeah, I take notes even on stuff you guys suggest so I can refer to it, is that sad?). Dh watched it too.

I've also completely stopped walking him near roads; I was deliberately exposing him to them (again, different thread and I know there's been replies since) thinking the more he got used to them the better, so now I've cut them out and he's more laid back, after the walk. Before, we'd come home after a really long walk, and he'd still be 100mph wanting to play. I've been trying to research whether dogs will 'stress play' (is it even a thing idk). The last few days we've avoided roads (we started Saturday), he hasn't been demanding to play, he has been really chilled and entertained himself. Sorry, that's a bit off subject.

So yeah, early days, and I expect to have tonnes of setbacks and have days where it's like 'GET A PRONG COLLAR NOW!!' (again, a bad-taste joke, I wouldn't_ actually_ do that), We're making some progress.

I want to thank you all, seriously thanks, because I'm not sure what I would've done otherwise. Asking people on walks they kinda shrug and they're notinterested (they have small dogs though!), and it's different to reading what you should do rather than speaking to real, albeit online! people who have used these techniques in real, actual life. So again THANK YOU ALL.

Sorry it's a bit muddled up and doesn't read well - I'm very happy and having a bit of a proud mom moment.


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Brilliant update... 

Love you are taking control of your walks. Sometimes it's a bit of a light bulb moment to enjoy walks we might have to go different paths instead of A to B, could go A to C to B, but it's our walk it's going to be pleasurable so let's take charge be proactive, avoid certain bits that really aren't worth it and just go for it.

Sometimes dogs will have a really good walk, come home and run round the house like maniacs.. Often had that with mine and since had multi dogs it's more a game of chase in a small space but it's fine. Doesn't mean that they haven't got enough exercise, or enjoyed there walk or needed more! It's one of those things. 

Glad you are getting more perspective on things now


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Glad you’re seeing some improvements - small steps are still positive and don’t lose heart if there’s an off day 

I think anxiety can breed anxiety so it does sound like dealing with one area of potential triggers could have a knock on effect with others.

Dogs sometimes get confidence from us feeling we’re in control too.

Avoiding the exposure to cars for now should help him relax when out and about and going forward, gradually reintroducing them in a controlled drip feed way.


----------



## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

I’ve been following this thread and what a fab update! Keep at it and he’ll get there


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Terrific update @AsahiGo


----------

