# Why is it acceptable to let cats roam, but not dogs?



## Amethyst

I don't want to get accused of anything "norty" like deflecting form someones thread topic, so ...

As being discussed ... why do some people think it okay to allow their cats wander, while (quite rightly) they would not allow their dogs to do the same?

Any cats we have in the future will be indoor cats, but years ago our family cats came and went at will ... thankfully we had worked out how to neuter them though 

Are we simply following old traditional thought if we let them roam? Do we allow it for thier convenience or ours?

Does acknowledging their "independence" mean we should sacrifice their safety?


----------



## CAstbury

I havent seen other thread - but personally I know my cat would be miserable if she had to stay indoors all the time. So although I worry about her safety I would prefer her to have a shorter happyier life than live til she is really old and be miserable.

Just my thoughts on my own cat


----------



## Taylorbaby

I think they are two totally different kettles of fish and you cant compare...??


----------



## Chez87

I'm not really sure about this thread. Are you implying that those of who let our cats out care any less about them than those who keep them indoors? And are purely doing it for convenience? Because I'm sorry but I would have to disagree.


----------



## Amethyst

Taylorbaby said:


> I think they are two totally different kettles of fish and you cant compare...??


Why? Cats face similar, very similar risks that dogs do?

They get attacked by dogs, hit by cars, poisoned, abused by people. I have never come across a dog being shot, but several cats.


----------



## Taylorbaby

Amethyst said:


> Why? Cats face similar, very similar risks that dogs do?
> 
> They get attacked by dogs, hit by cars, poisoned, abused by people. I have never come across a dog being shot, but several cats.


might Face simalar risks but they are two totally different animals!


----------



## HelloKittyHannah

Personally, I feel if cats have a right to "roam" for their own health and enrichment then so should every other animal we choose to domesticate. For obvious reasons though, this is completely out of the question!
Dogs roaming are a potential threat to humans as if left to their own devices they would potentially end up totally unsocialised and dangerous.
Hamsters, mice, rats, rabbits etc aren't allowed to roam for their own safety (not to mention their pest status when wild!).
Cats on the other hand are viewed in the middle, not dangerous to humans and much more capable of avoiding harm.
Cats were also useful when left free roaming for controlling vermin... Opinion doesn't seem to have changed much over the years.

I personally don't like cats roaming. If Cassie hadn't come to me as an avid hater of the indoors then she would have been an indoor cat.
Since she injured her leg a couple of days ago she's had to be kept in, and to be honest, I'm hoping to try again to keep her as an indoor cat (I won't be holding my breath though!)


----------



## Amethyst

Chez87 said:


> I'm not really sure about this thread. Are you implying that those of who let our cats out care any less about them than those who keep them indoors? And are purely doing it for convenience? Because I'm sorry but I would have to disagree.


I guess it's asking simply why we (generalising) find it acceptable/or did to let cats roam but not dogs.

My thoughts are it's a traditional thing ... but that's just my opinion.


----------



## Amethyst

Taylorbaby said:


> might Face simalar risks but they are two totally different animals!


I realise they are different animals 

But do you think it acceptable to expose cats to all the risks by allowing them to roam, while not wanting your (generalising) dog to roam.

Many dogs would love to roam the street, oblivious to their own danger or the danger they may cause, but good owners don't allow it 

Years ago all the dogs in our street used to roam, play with us kids and follow us all over, they were happy as Larry ... but looking back I am horrified


----------



## Chez87

I'd also like to dispute the convenience issue. For me, Loki being outside is far from convenient. I worry about him, have to keep going out to call him every 10 minutes so I know where he is, can't go out unless he is back inside etc. It would be much more convenient if he was indoors and I would know exactly where he was at all times. For me personally, his enjoyment of being outdoors wins over my "convenience."


----------



## Chez87

Also, I don't have dogs so I don't know, but is it not illegal to let dogs roam the streets?


----------



## Amethyst

Chez87 said:


> I'd also like to dispute the convenience issue. For me, Loki being outside is far from convenient. I worry about him, have to keep going out to call him every 10 minutes so I know where he is, can't go out unless he is back inside etc. It would be much more convenient if he was indoors and I would know exactly where he was at all times. For me personally, his enjoyment of being outdoors wins over my "convenience."


The convenience point was a "point" not saying that is the reason people do it, though I know some do ...


----------



## Nicky10

Because it's traditional. Dog owners realised it's too dangerous to let their dogs out to run fweeee yet cat owners still seem to insist they must go out and kill things/get killed. You put exactly the same risks of letting free roaming animals to dog and cat owners the dog owners would be horrified at the idea cat owners just seem to shrug it off. Oh well you have to let them out otherwise you'll find little kitty sized nooses lying around and besides litter trays stink damn it and we don't want the hassle of having to clean those


----------



## Amethyst

Chez87 said:


> Also, I don't have dogs so I don't know, but is it not illegal to let dogs roam the streets?


Your dog could indeed be officially picked up as a stray ... and of course your cat could to by a rescue if someone called them. Both in theory would be returned if you had an up to date chip in them 

If not ...


----------



## Aurelia

I think perhaps that the reasons why people let their cats out are dated, and not in time with the way things are in the modern world.

I can understand why people let their cats out, but I couldn't ever do it again personally.

You only have to look at approximate stats of the number of cars on the road year by year. In the 60's there was about 10 million on the road, today there is more than 35 million on the road. So compared to the 60's your cat is more than 3 times more likely to get hit by a car.

If you could live somewhere that isn't like the modern world (thinking about some of the Isles around the UK) then maybe the risks are much less ... I'd possibly reconsider in those circumstances.


----------



## Guest

I would not know, I dont let my cats or dogs out.
When I moved my mother said "Oh your cats can go out now" and to put it politely I told her no way, there are more dangers than just cars.


----------



## Amethyst

Aurelia said:


> If you could live somewhere that isn't like the modern world (thinking about some of the Isles around the UK) then maybe the risks are much less ... I'd possibly reconsider in those circumstances.


I'd think along the same lines, there must be some safe places, but not many if any in built up areas. I have "scraped too many cats off roads" ...not mine but other peoples .... to justify letting any cat of mine out now 

Maybe when we move to that elusive perfect place things will be different


----------



## Guest

Amethyst said:


> Why? Cats face similar, very similar risks that dogs do?
> 
> They get attacked by dogs, hit by cars, poisoned, abused by people. I have never come across a dog being shot, but several cats.


well said.


----------



## Myanimalmadhouse

wow is this the "we hate outdoor cats" thread???!!!

The reason you dont let dogs roam the street is for the publics safety!!! Even the nicest, friendliest dog in the world can do an awful lot of damage to a person when threatened!

Cats are completely different creatures and quite frankly letting them "roam" outdoors is not outdated traditional views - its a personal choice for each owner to decide!

Mine are indoor/outdoor (except one) and they go out during the day and come in at tea time at the latest as we get alot of teenagers round here during the night.

Some cats are quite happy to be indoors only and some would prefer to be outdoors all day and night if they could.

Yes there are loads more cars on the road now and my cats are 3 times more likely to get run over, but my kids also have that same risk, infact they have ALL the same risks that the cats do AND more but if I were to keep them confined to the house I'd soon have social services knocking on my door!


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

One can never truly domesticate a cat.

They tolerate us humans- we all know that they own us 

A cat will hunt and look after itself whereas your dog prefers you to look after it.

Some cats are happy to be indoors whereas others hate it. Whilst it is fraught with danger out there does it make it right to keep a cat in because YOU want to protect it a much as you can despite it being miserable as hell indoors?


----------



## Aurelia

Myanimalmadhouse said:


> wow is this the "we hate outdoor cats" thread???!!!


I don't think so ... so far it's a discussion. I hope that doesn't change.



Myanimalmadhouse said:


> The reason you dont let dogs roam the street is for the publics safety!!! Even the nicest, friendliest dog in the world can do an awful lot of damage to a person when threatened!


It's not the only reason though.



Myanimalmadhouse said:


> Cats are completely different creatures and quite frankly letting them "roam" outdoors is not outdated traditional views - its a personal choice for each owner to decide!


I'm not saying peoples views are outdated, but that the reasons for cats being allowed to go outside perhaps are not in time with the modern world. So our cats are in danger ... more than they have ever been. There has to come a point where it's just not safe for any cat to be out surely?



Myanimalmadhouse said:


> Mine are indoor/outdoor (except one) and they go out during the day and come in at tea time at the latest as we get alot of teenagers round here during the night.
> 
> Some cats are quite happy to be indoors only and some would prefer to be outdoors all day and night if they could.
> 
> Yes there are loads more cars on the road now and my cats are 3 times more likely to get run over, but my kids also have that same risk, infact they have ALL the same risks that the cats do AND more but if I were to keep them confined to the house I'd soon have social services knocking on my door!


To be fair you can teach your kids to follow the green cross code and have some road sense. You can't teach your cats the same. This goes for every comparable danger.

Plus I don't think anyone lets their kids go out at will like they did in the 60's and 70's anymore. So in that respect it is completely different.


----------



## Amethyst

Cockerpoo lover said:


> A cat will hunt and look after itself whereas your dog prefers you to look after it.


Cats can and do suffer frequently as a consequence of being allowed to roam, many get injured and killed on the roads ... I'll NEVER forget the cat I picked up that had had the skin ripped off it's tail from car accident. It was HORRIFIC just flesh and tail bones, she had to be pts due to shock from bleeding.

They also seem to be game for many people with airguns in many areas, one of my rescue boys came to us with pellets in him 

The truth is cats are JUST as vulnerable as dogs and unfortunately things are or seem to be getting worse in many areas. In my opinion. I do think more thought maybe has to go into the decision of house cat outdoor cat than previously.


----------



## Aurelia

Cockerpoo lover said:


> One can never truly domesticate a cat.
> 
> They tolerate us humans- we all know that they own us
> 
> A cat will hunt and look after itself whereas your dog prefers you to look after it.
> 
> Some cats are happy to be indoors whereas others hate it. Whilst it is fraught with danger out there does it make it right to keep a cat in because YOU want to protect it a much as you can despite it being miserable as hell indoors?


So wild packs of dogs don't hunt for themselves?

I do think when comparing cats to dogs in this instance you really can only compare wild dogs to cats. This is because our dogs have kept up with modern times (or the rules of keeping dogs anyway).

IMO the only cats who would hate being kept indoors are those that have already experienced the outdoors, or those who are not provided with enough entertainment indoors. But even then they do not know what's outside so they can't possibly know that they would prefer to be outside.

If I thought for a moment that I could let my girls out and they would know never to cross the road when a car is coming, or not to eat vermin because they might be poisoned, or not to touch that puddle of sweet smelling stuff (de -icer), or not to approach that scary looking man, or run the opposite way when you see a fox ... and to teach them to come in every single night on curfew no matter what (because they would not learn from being grounded :lol .... Then yes I would let my girls out.

I think of my girls as my children, I will protect them in the same way


----------



## Amethyst

Aurelia said:


> I think of my girls as my children, I will protect them in the same way


That's a lovely and special way to put things


----------



## gskinner123

I personally think it's due to tradition. And to some extent, when i was a kid many, many years ago, it wasn't that uncommon to see mongrel dogs trotting around the streets taking their daily constitutional; nobody really thought much of it though you'd never see a pedigree dog out walkies on its own.

I must confess it's always baffled me a bit that nowadays virtually nobody would let the dog out to wander but a number of people are prepared to do so with their cats. But unless someone specifically and pointedly asked me for my opinion on whether or not they should do so, I'd never pass comment because I know that some folk are equally as passionate about allowing their cats outdoors as I am about keeping mine in (or rather with the restricted, supervised access they have to my enclosed garden). Everyone must make their own choice but with it comes the acceptance of responsibility should the worst happen.

I once had someone say to me far better that her cat had 6 happy, carefree years, going outside doing what comes naturally to a cat, than 16 years of being cooped up in a house. A sentiment I can't agree with but nothing I could ever have said would change her mind.


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

I think you need to base it on what the cats wants.

Some cats don't venture far. Some only go as far as the garden and back and others like to be out all the time. Some prefer to lay on the bed all day.

The world is a dangerous place but do you to make your life sterile in the hope that nothing bad happens?

Where do you draw the line? never let your kids out unless with you?

and what about wild animals?? they are under the same threats as our cats how would you protect those? or are they not as worthy because they are deemed wild whilst your pet cat is "domesticated" ?


----------



## Amethyst

Cockerpoo lover said:


> I think you need to base it on what the cats wants.


Though unfortunately while many cats would love to freely wander, they have no understanding of the dangers of doing ... so perhaps by allowing their "wants" you neglect their needs (to be kept safe)? Just a thought


----------



## Amethyst

Cockerpoo lover said:


> and what about wild animals?? they are under the same threats as our cats how would you protect those? or are they not as worthy because they are deemed wild whilst your pet cat is "domesticated" ?


I'm talking about cats ... not lions :lol:


----------



## noushka05

HelloKittyHannah said:


> Personally, I feel if cats have a right to "roam" for their own health and enrichment then so should every other animal we choose to domesticate. For obvious reasons though, this is completely out of the question!
> Dogs roaming are a potential threat to humans as if left to their own devices they would potentially end up totally unsocialised and dangerous.
> Hamsters, mice, rats, rabbits etc aren't allowed to roam for their own safety (not to mention their pest status when wild!).
> Cats on the other hand are viewed in the middle, not dangerous to humans and much more capable of avoiding harm.
> Cats were also useful when left free roaming for controlling vermin... Opinion doesn't seem to have changed much over the years.
> 
> I personally don't like cats roaming. If Cassie hadn't come to me as an avid hater of the indoors then she would have been an indoor cat.
> Since she injured her leg a couple of days ago she's had to be kept in, and to be honest, I'm hoping to try again to keep her as an indoor cat (I won't be holding my breath though!)


cats are classed as an invasive species by conservationists because they have an impact on the populations of indiginous species they prey upon and not only those but also the native predator species as they compete for food.

so i personally think its unacceptable to allow them to roam for the reasons above and for their own safety aswell.


----------



## gskinner123

Cockerpoo lover said:


> I think you need to base it on what the cats wants.
> 
> Some cats don't venture far. Some only go as far as the garden and back and others like to be out all the time. Some prefer to lay on the bed all day.
> 
> The world is a dangerous place but do you to make your life sterile in the hope that nothing bad happens?
> 
> Where do you draw the line? never let your kids out unless with you?
> 
> and what about wild animals?? they are under the same threats as our cats how would you protect those? or are they not as worthy because they are deemed wild whilst your pet cat is "domesticated" ?


I'm a bit baffled by some of that  We chose to domestic cats, therefore we have responsibilities and duties to them. I hate seeing any wildlife killed, accidentally or otherwise, but for most part there's precious little I can do about it.

As far as kids are concerned... well, to state the obvious, kids aren't cats. Kids grow and learn and hopefully the parents tailor the level of freedom the child has to what they feel the child is capable of safely undertaking on its own. Cats, you can never achieve that with.


----------



## Amethyst

noushka05 said:


> cats are classed as an invasive species by conservationists because they have an impact on the populations of indiginous species they prey upon and not only those but also the native predator species as they compete for food.
> 
> so i personally think its unacceptable to allow them to roam for the reasons above and for their own safety aswell.


Have you a link to any of this info, I know I've read of this before. I can remember when we were young one of my cats was a great bird killer, we just accepted things then


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

Amethyst said:


> Though unfortunately while many cats would love to freely wander, they have no understanding of the dangers of doing ... so perhaps by allowing their "wants" you neglect their needs (to be kept safe)? Just a thought


I think cats do have a very good understanding of danger and think this probably becomes more developed if you let them be what nature intended.

Of course there are perils out there- but that goes for all creatures and us!

Yes you could say letting them out _could_ neglect their need to be safe but the on the other hand it could be said that be keeping them in you are neglecting their need to go out.

So if you had a cat that you wanted to keep in but he was always trying to get out and constantly pacing by doors and windows and meeowing etc... would you continue to keep him in?

Would it make you feel better knowing he is safe from being run over or shot/poisoned more important than his emotional wellbeing ?

( I have /had both indoor and outdoor cats so see both sides BTW)


----------



## Sacrechat

The cats I have now have never roamed outside. They have no idea of what it would be like to roam. Now ten years ago I did let the cats I had then roam. I cannot see any difference in their behaviour. My cats now appear to be as happy as my cats back then. I will never again let my cats go outside except in the cat run. I do not believe it is safe. If I thought for one minute keeping them as indoor cats meant they were unhappy, I would not do it, but my own cats are evidence to me that this is not the case.


----------



## Amethyst

Cockerpoo lover said:


> I think cats do have a very good understanding of danger and think this probably becomes more developed if you let them be what nature intended.


I have seen too many cats come to a sticky end or very close to one to agree with that ... However intelligent cats may be out of the streets they become very vulnerable.

Nature never intended them to come into contact with car wheels and bumpers or shotgun pellets unfortunately


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

Aurelia said:


> So wild packs of dogs don't hunt for themselves?
> 
> I do think when comparing cats to dogs in this instance you really can only compare wild dogs to cats. This is because our dogs have kept up with modern times (or the rules of keeping dogs anyway).
> 
> IMO the only cats who would hate being kept indoors are those that have already experienced the outdoors, or those who are not provided with enough entertainment indoors. But even then they do not know what's outside so they can't possibly know that they would prefer to be outside.
> 
> If I thought for a moment that I could let my girls out and they would know never to cross the road when a car is coming, or not to eat vermin because they might be poisoned, or not to touch that puddle of sweet smelling stuff (de -icer), or not to approach that scary looking man, or run the opposite way when you see a fox ... and to teach them to come in every single night on curfew no matter what (because they would not learn from being grounded :lol .... Then yes I would let my girls out.
> 
> I think of my girls as my children, I will protect them in the same way


I was talking about both domesticated dogs and cats of course wild dogs fend for themselves and it was somewhat of a tongue in cheek comment that cats are independent where as dogs love to be looked after.

Actually you are wrong I know of indoor cats who never went out and hated being kept in despite their owners providing lots of toys and entertainment etc...

Don't you think they look out of windows? see open doors? smell the air and scents through open windows etc....


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

Amethyst said:


> I have seen too many cats come to a sticky end or very close to one to agree with that ... However intelligent cats may be out of the streets they become very vulnerable.
> 
> Nature never intended them to come into contact with car wheels and bumpers or shotgun pellets unfortunately


Yes I do agree it's a bad world out there


----------



## Aurelia

Cockerpoo lover said:


> I think cats do have a very good understanding of danger and think this probably becomes more developed if you let them be what nature intended.


Erm, I hate to point this out but I think the tens of thousands of cats that are squashed on the road might not agree :scared:



Cockerpoo lover said:


> Of course there are perils out there- but that goes for all creatures and us!
> 
> Yes you could say letting them out _could_ neglect their need to be safe but the on the other hand it could be said that be keeping them in you are neglecting their need to go out.
> 
> *So if you had a cat that you wanted to keep in but he was always trying to get out and constantly pacing by doors and windows and meeowing etc... would you continue to keep him in?*
> 
> Would it make you feel better knowing he is safe from being run over or shot/poisoned more important than his emotional wellbeing ?
> 
> ( I have /had both indoor and outdoor cats so see both sides BTW)


I'm not sure if you're aware of this ... If a cat has never had access to the outdoors they will never know what is out there.

They could watch butterflies on a TV screen in the same way as a window. But you'd never let them into the tv would you?

Cats that scratch at doors only do so because they have seen us humans go through it and they want to see whats there. It's not because they want to go outside. It's just curiosity or wanting to be with you. The same way our cats insist on going into the bathroom with you 

Though as I have said, I do think it's different if the cat has previously had outdoor access. But even then they can adapt to an indoor only home. If the circumstances warrant it I'm sure anyone would be happy with doing that as opposed to letting them outside if they live next door to the M1 for instance.

You can't miss what you've never had.


----------



## Guest

noushka05 said:


> cats are classed as an invasive species by conservationists because they have an impact on the populations of indiginous species they prey upon and not only those but also the native predator species as they compete for food.
> 
> so i personally think its unacceptable to allow them to roam for the reasons above and for their own safety aswell.


can't agree more.


----------



## Sacrechat

gskinner123 said:


> I'm a bit baffled by some of that  As far as kids are concerned... well, to state the obvious, kids aren't cats. Kids grow and learn and hopefully the parents tailor the level of freedom the child has to what they feel the child is capable of safely undertaking on its own. Cats, you can never achieve that with.


Plus, parents today do not give their children the same freedom kids had years ago. When I was a child, I could go out in the morning and wander all over town and not return till evening. We couldn't be bothered with food: too busy playing. Mum used to give me a big breakfast and big evening meal to make up for it. Sometimes, we would jump on a bus and travel 11 miles over to Rivington Pike and we would do this without even telling our parents where we had gone. We were only 10 years old.

Clearly, times have changed and quite rightly so. It is not safe for children to do this sort of thing. Just as times and attitudes have changed towards children's safety so it goes with our pets. People learn from past mistakes or, at least, we try to.


----------



## Guest

Personally don't think you can compare a cat with a dog - certainly not when it comes to roaming! For starters if your dogs roams and causes an RTA they the owner can be held responsible for any damage caused! Then their is the issue of dogs 'attacking' - ain't never heard of no cat attacking no one!

I have both cats and dogs! My dogs would NEVER be allowed to roam, my cats on the other hand always have!  not saying they roam far as we have a large garden, they are castrated and we have a cat flap basically they come and go as they please!
THAT SAID!! my cat is now 17 - we DO make sure he is in EVERY night o have permenantly closed the cat flap! - I dont NEVER thrown him out - he paws at the door to go out! and dont think he would be happy if I kept him in!


----------



## staffy_missy

Amethyst said:


> I don't want to get accused of anything "norty" like deflecting form someones thread topic, so ...
> 
> As being discussed ... why do some people think it okay to allow their cats wander, while (quite rightly) they would not allow their dogs to do the same?
> 
> Any cats we have in the future will be indoor cats, but years ago our family cats came and went at will ... thankfully we had worked out how to neuter them though
> 
> Are we simply following old traditional thought if we let them roam? Do we allow it for thier convenience or ours?
> 
> Does acknowledging their "independence" mean we should sacrifice their safety?


i personally dont agree with this at all. Its totally different i see dogs running into the road all the time nearly getting ran over i dont see many cats do this they usually keep themselves to themselves i have never had an outdoor cat run over to me harrasing me. I have two cats and they are both indoor cats and i can tell you they are very happy healthy cats. I leave my doors and windows wide open and they have never ventured out. I also now have a puppy and would never let her out alone too many accidents happen and i personally think if people havnt got enough time to take your dogs out for a walk then maybe they shouldnt have a dog. And if you are refering to the thread where a dog got into somebodys house and scared their cats to death do you not see anything wrong with this? The cats could of been hurt in their own home!


----------



## Amethyst

staffy_missy said:


> And if you are refering to the thread where a dog got into somebodys house and scared their cats to death do you not see anything wrong with this? The cats could of been hurt in their own home!


I haven't a clue what you are on about  Or what exactly you don't agree with in my initial post ... sorry.


----------



## HelloKittyHannah

Cockerpoo lover said:


> So if you had a cat that you wanted to keep in but he was always trying to get out and constantly pacing by doors and windows and meeowing etc... would you continue to keep him in


This is why Cassie remains an outdoor cat. If shut indoors she is completely unsettled, attacks Wabbit constantly and growls and hisses at all of us. She spends hours going from window to window, door to door looking for an escape route. She hides away behind the furniture, hardly eats and refuses to go to the toilet for days on end.
If let outside she will spend 90% of her time outside, but when she does come in she's a different cat. She's relaxed, comes for a fuss, sleeps on the bed... 
With how stressed she gets I just don't see how I can justify keeping her in as in her best interests, no matter what my feelings are about the outside dangers (which are very real I can assure you as my bank account is missing £250 this week from Cassie having to have her leg repaired at the vets!)

At the moment with her injured leg she's been a completely different cat and is calm and settled in the kitchen (most hygenic place for her with her bleeding wound, I can keep everything disinfected) She's purring and happy to have a fuss, using the tray and not running away whenever I enter the room.
I assume this can be attributed to being high on the painkillers she's on but I really really hope she learns to love being indoors over the next 2 weeks she has to stay confined.


----------



## Gem16

Out of my 3 cats only 1, Oliver went outside. Since we moved 2 weeks ago he has been an indoor cat aswell and will be staying that way. He is 15 and has gone outside his whole life and really enjoyed it BUT he has adapted amazingly well to his new indoor life and it's a great feeling knowing all my babies are safe rather than out where i cannot protect them


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

Aurelia said:


> Erm, I hate to point this out but I think the tens of thousands of cats that are squashed on the road might not agree :scared:
> 
> *I'm not sure if you're aware of this ... If a cat has never had access to the outdoors they will never know what is out there.*
> 
> They could watch butterflies on a TV screen in the same way as a window. But you'd never let them into the tv would you?
> 
> Cats that scratch at doors only do so because they have seen us humans go through it and they want to see whats there. It's not because they want to go outside. It's just curiosity or wanting to be with you. The same way our cats insist on going into the bathroom with you
> 
> Though as I have said, I do think it's different if the cat has previously had outdoor access. But even then they can adapt to an indoor only home. If the circumstances warrant it I'm sure anyone would be happy with doing that as opposed to letting them outside if they live next door to the M1 for instance.
> 
> You can't miss what you've never had.


 I wonder if you could look at the stats at the number of deaths on rds to cats to % owned what it would be in comparison to natural death.
Obviously higher in city areas.

For the bolded bit:
I do not agree that this is the case with all.

I had two cats that were indoor cats and they were not really happy about it.

One even escaped one day through a louvre window I had that was only open an inch to let air in . I lived in the top of a victorian house divided into two flats.

He then jumped onto the roof and decided it was great fun to wander up and down the neighbour roofs whilst I and my partner were frantic and trying everything to get him back down.

I could provide other examples of my own and others but do not think it's worth if it the mind is closed 

As I said I can see both sides but enjoy a healthy debate.

Has been enlightening


----------



## Chez87

Sacremist said:


> Plus, parents today do not give their children the same freedom kids had years ago. When I was a child, I could go out in the morning and wander all over town and not return till evening. We couldn't be bothered with food: too busy playing. Mum used to give me a big breakfast and big evening meal to make up for it. Sometimes, we would jump on a bus and travel 11 miles over to Rivington Pike and we would do this without even telling our parents where we had gone. We were only 10 years old.
> 
> Clearly, times have changed and quite rightly so. It is not safe for children to do this sort of thing. Just as times and attitudes have changed towards children's safety so it goes with our pets. People learn from past mistakes or, at least, we try to.


The only thing I think that has changed as far as children being allowed to wander far and wide is the fact that nowadays, due to the media, we are more aware of the dangers. I don't think it is any more unsafe for kids to be outside now than it was 20 years ago. I just think parents are more scared these days as they have been alerted to the dangers. I am only 23 but I was much the same as you, and as soon as I got home from school I would be out all evening till nighttime, from when I was about age 9. Even if my mum didn't know where I was! In fact she was at work in the evenings.

Anyway...sorry to go off topic!


----------



## lulubel

Cockerpoo lover said:


> and what about wild animals?? they are under the same threats as our cats how would you protect those? or are they not as worthy because they are deemed wild whilst your pet cat is "domesticated" ?


Just wanted to comment on this ....

I can't protect wild animals. I wish I could. Seeing them squashed on the road really upsets me. It also upsets me when I see other people's cats dead on the road, because there was nothing I could do to protect them either.

But I CAN protect my own cats, so I do.


----------



## Myanimalmadhouse

This really does sound like a "people who let their cats outdoors dont love em as much as we do" or "outdoor cats are bad" thread - seriously it does!

I dont say having indoor only cats are bad, its personal choice and usually dependant on circumstances and yes maybe if I did live next to the M1 I would keep mine in but being as I live in a nice quiet cul de sac and not close to any major roads and all my neighbours know me and my cats and I know them and their cats then why shouldn't my cats be allowed outdoors?

I do live in the modern world and quite frankly I hate it - its full of hateful, selfish mindset people who think its quite acceptable to do what ever they want,whenever they want and to whoever they want!

Thats why I love animals, they have logical behaviour and yes they can actually adapt and learn and I've seen one of my cats see a car, stop and wait for it to pass before crossing! They are also taught to be friendly and loving but to beware of strangers and to not let anyone but me or the vet pick them up - not even my kids!

The youngest cat we've ever had die young was snowy and that was cus she was deaf and had a particular like for the icecream van yet she still managed to live to the age of 13.

So the statistics of "the average outdoor cat only lives to 2-3 years old" might be right if you live in a major city or next to the M1 but its certainly not correct around here! Mine are currently aged between 2 and 9 years old and erics cats over the road from me are 16 and 18 and they are both outdoors alot more than mine!


----------



## lulubel

Myanimalmadhouse said:


> So the statistics of "the average outdoor cat only lives to 2-3 years old" might be right if you live in a major city or next to the M1 but its certainly not correct around here! Mine are currently aged between 2 and 9 years old and erics cats over the road from me are 16 and 18 and they are both outdoors alot more than mine!


To contrast this, our next door neighbour lost 3 cats in 3 years, all below the age of 2 and all run over. We lived in rural Cornwall, on a quiet road in a hamlet.


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

gskinner123 said:


> I'm a bit baffled by some of that  We chose to domestic cats, therefore we have responsibilities and duties to them. I hate seeing any wildlife killed, accidentally or otherwise, but for most part there's precious little I can do about it.
> 
> As far as kids are concerned... well, to state the obvious, kids aren't cats. Kids grow and learn and hopefully the parents tailor the level of freedom the child has to what they feel the child is capable of safely undertaking on its own. Cats, you can never achieve that with.


 Of course we have responsibilities and duties to them but does that mean our responsibility is to decide that the cat is to be kept indoors is seen as being preferable over allowing it to roam free.

Like I mentioned should it not be up to the cat to decide?

As I said I can see both sides as have done both.

The kid comment was just to highlight how far does one go to protect those who we feel responsible for.


----------



## Amethyst

lulubel said:


> To contrast this, our next door neighbour lost 3 cats in 3 years, all below the age of 2 and all run over. We lived in rural Cornwall, on a quiet road in a hamlet.


That's sad but it's not uncommon for cats to be killed on even roads that get occasional traffic. Even cul de sacs have seen cats lose their lives under the wheels of a car.

The little cat that had her tail, or rather the skin ripped off lived locally and it too is a "quiet road" so it is worrying


----------



## catsmum

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Of course we have responsibilities and duties to them but does that mean our responsibility is to decide that the cat is to be kept indoors is seen as being preferable over allowing it to roam free.
> 
> Like I mentioned should it not be up to the cat to decide?


 we decide to neuter them, we decide to vaccinate them, we decide what happens with their health and diet

we dont leave any of those other welfare issues up to the cat to decide for him/her self so why should we leave the indoor/outdoor issue to the cat

we make all the other important decisions for them, why not this one?


----------



## Amethyst

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Like I mentioned should it not be up to the cat to decide?


No more than it should be up to the cat to decide if we should neuter it or not ...


----------



## kerfuffle

I believe it's due to laws in regards to animal ownership - if your dog attacks someone or befouls someone else's garden, you're responsible.And dogs have been known in the past to attack people without provocation, perhaps due to poor breeding or socialisation. There had been a case of a large breed dog mauling a pony and managing to drag the pony along??? That's pretty powerful.

I haven't really heard of any incidents of a cat mauling someone (not to say there isn't any, just haven't heard of any), and the larger breeds of domestic cats still aren't as big or powerful as large breeds of dogs to be capable of the damages a dog can do to a human being. If a cat befouls someone else's garden, the owner is not legally or financially liable for it.

Essentially, as an owner, you have less liability letting your cat out vs letting your dog out and a lot of people let their cats out because they can (or because the cat won't have it any other day and is destructive and aggressive indoors, especially if they've not always been indoor cats since their kittenhood). At least with a dog most you can train them properly, only certain cats will accept training to a) not be destructive and b) walk on the leash. And there are people who don't like buying litter and cleaning litterboxes, much cheaper to let them do their business outside.

I personally won't let my cat or, if I ever to own one, dog on free-roaming but this is due to pet safety and I don't trust my cat to have enough road sense (and also, there are some cat-murderer-wannabes in my residential area, as per a thread I posted not long ago). I will allow my pets free-roam in my garden if they are unable to escape (cat-proofed and high fences).


----------



## Myanimalmadhouse

catsmum said:


> we decide to neuter them, we decide to vaccinate them, we decide what happens with their health and diet
> 
> we dont leave any of those other welfare issues up to the cat to decide for him/her self so why should we leave the indoor/outdoor issue to the cat
> 
> we make all the other important decisions for them, why not this one?


Yes it should be us to make the decision but decide on a personal basis and part of that decision should include the happiness of the cat also.

But what I'm trying to say is why is it right to say it should be one way or the other? It should be a choice for each owner to weigh up their own circumstances and personality/happiness of their cat and not a blanket "this is right and this is wrong" scenario.


----------



## Aurelia

Cockerpoo lover said:


> I wonder if you could look at the stats at the number of deaths on rds to cats to % owned what it would be in comparison to natural death.
> Obviously higher in city areas.
> 
> For the bolded bit:
> I do not agree that this is the case with all.
> 
> I had two cats that were indoor cats and they were not really happy about it.
> 
> One even escaped one day through a louvre window I had that was only open an inch to let air in . I lived in the top of a victorian house divided into two flats.
> 
> He then jumped onto the roof and decided it was great fun to wander up and down the neighbour roofs whilst I and my partner were frantic and trying everything to get him back down.
> 
> I could provide other examples of my own and others but do not think it's worth if it the mind is closed
> 
> As I said I can see both sides but enjoy a healthy debate.
> 
> Never been on the cat forum before despite owning one and thought despite the comments I have heard about it being "Catty" thought I would venture on and see for myself.
> 
> Has been enlightening


The example you give does not convince me that your cat actually wanted to go outside and walk on the roof tops.

1. your cat wouldn't have been able to see the roof tops so how would it of known they were there?

2. One of my girls is so determined to get into every single little space in the house ... well I can quite believe it would have been more to do with being nosey and wanting to see where the hole would lead. Or if your cat was entire it would have also been another reason.

Honestly, unless a cat has previously had access to the outdoors they can not know what they are missing to miss it! It's just not possible IMO.

If your cats were not happy indoors *ducks for cover* that would be more because they didn't have enough entertainment and will have been bored ... or didn't like each others company.

Out of interest though, can you describe to me what convinced you your cats weren't happy? What did they do that made you think this was the case?


----------



## canuckjill

My dog's don't roam for several reasons, they may jump up and hurt a child by accident, they may bite someone (highly unlikely), they may chase and mate with whatever is around (the dogs are entire), they may group together as a pack and drive the cows a no no around here, they may get hit by a car, they may scare someone who doesn't like dogs, they may chase a vehicle....Cats don't chase vehicles, if people are scared of a cat the cat doesn't chase them, they don't go after farmers stock as a pack, they don't run and jump up on people although they may walk around your leg. Only thing in common really is they may get hit by a car I have only lost one to that in over 30 years and it was in my driveway not on the road. My cats also keep the mouse and gopher situation under control. I would not let my cats out though if they were not fixed....This is just my opinion I like my cats to be indoor outdoor cats. And they even come in to use their litter box


----------



## Guest

Aurelia said:


> The example you give does not convince me that your cat actually wanted to go outside and walk on the roof tops.
> 
> 1. your cat wouldn't have been able to see the roof tops so how would it of known they were there?
> 
> 2. One of my girls is so determined to get into every single little space in the house ... well I can quite believe it would have been more to do with being nosey and wanting to see where the hole would lead. Or if your cat was entire it would have also been another reason.
> 
> Honestly, unless a cat has previously had access to the outdoors they can not know what they are missing to miss it! It's just not possible IMO.
> 
> If your cats were not happy indoors *ducks for cover* that would be more because they didn't have enough entertainment and will have been bored ... or didn't like each others company.
> 
> Out of interest though, can you describe to me what convinced you your cats weren't happy? What did they do that made you think this was the case?


well I KNOW my Billy aint happy if he's kept in allday! he pads at the door for us to open it over and over and over again! He don't go far though! and seldom outta the garden! He can (we don't think) no longer jump the wall or gate at the side but will try and sneak out when we are going out! BUT! we don't let him! HE COULD if he wanted get through the hedge (that is down ) at the front but he doesn't = perhaps because it fronts a road!
Smokey lived to be twenty! Bill is seventeen - don't think I bei changing my opinion based on folk that say cats are happier inside!


----------



## Aurelia

Myanimalmadhouse said:


> This really does sound like a "people who let their cats outdoors dont love em as much as we do" or "outdoor cats are bad" thread - seriously it does!
> 
> I dont say having indoor only cats are bad, its personal choice and usually dependant on circumstances and yes maybe if I did live next to the M1 I would keep mine in but being as I live in a nice quiet cul de sac and not close to any major roads and all my neighbours know me and my cats and I know them and their cats then why shouldn't my cats be allowed outdoors?
> 
> I do live in the modern world and quite frankly I hate it - its full of hateful, selfish mindset people who think its quite acceptable to do what ever they want,whenever they want and to whoever they want!
> 
> Thats why I love animals, they have logical behaviour and yes they can actually adapt and learn and I've seen one of my cats see a car, stop and wait for it to pass before crossing! They are also taught to be friendly and loving but to beware of strangers and to not let anyone but me or the vet pick them up - not even my kids!
> 
> The youngest cat we've ever had die young was snowy and that was cus she was deaf and had a particular like for the icecream van yet she still managed to live to the age of 13.
> 
> So the statistics of "the average outdoor cat only lives to 2-3 years old" might be right if you live in a major city or next to the M1 but its certainly not correct around here! Mine are currently aged between 2 and 9 years old and erics cats over the road from me are 16 and 18 and they are both outdoors alot more than mine!


I'm sorry if you feel the way you do in your first sentence  I'm certainly not of that mindset.

I know I feel the way I do because of past experience. I lived in a quite village on a road with a dead end leading on to open fields. I still lost many cats to the road, to poison and some also just vanished.

In comparison my next door neighbour at the time ... their 19 year old cat went to sleep for the last time under our car one morning. My hubby saw him lying there before he got in to go to work that day.

What does that tell you? Either we were incredibly unlucky or next doors cat was invincible until that day? I still can't fathom it after all these years. SO I take steps to prevent it ever happening again instead.


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

catsmum said:


> we decide to neuter them, we decide to vaccinate them, we decide what happens with their health and diet
> 
> we dont leave any of those other welfare issues up to the cat to decide for him/her self so why should we leave the indoor/outdoor issue to the cat
> 
> we make all the other important decisions for them, why not this one?


Because it's an animal.

If the cat is happy to roam as many have always done why is it your decision to put a stop to it?

If the cat is happy to stay indoors that's fine and wouldn't we all love it if they did 

But I would say majority of cats love to go out and wander whether it be just in the garden or further afield.

Can you not let the cat choose whether to go out or not?

For me I get all the angst and safety issues. No one wants to find their cat injured or dead.

But I still think that as an animal it should have the right to wander as it wants to.
We have loads of pet cats around our neighbourhood who are out at all different times- maybe I have gotten more used to seeing them this way???
That's just my opinion and we are all different.

Hey maybe we should get one of those pet psychics to ask the cat " do you want to stay in or go out?"


----------



## Sacrechat

Cockerpoo lover said:


> So if you had a cat that you wanted to keep in but he was always trying to get out and constantly pacing by doors and windows and meeowing etc... would you continue to keep him in?


Of course, if my cats did this, I would not keep them in, because they are obviously unhappy. The point is that they do not do this. They never have. They show no signs of being unhappy. Unfortunately, people who prefer to allow their cats to roam do so because they believe cats MUST BE unhappy if they are kept indoors. This has not been my experience so obviously, I cannot agree with them.


----------



## Amethyst

Myanimalmadhouse said:


> But what I'm trying to say is why is it right to say it should be one way or the other? It should be a choice for each owner to weigh up their own circumstances and personality/happiness of their cat and not a blanket "this is right and this is wrong" scenario.


I agree, but unfortunately and this is of course only MY personal opinion ... that while there _may_ be places where it might be considered "safe" to allow your cat to roam ... for most of us, the risk outweighs the benefit, perceived or otherwise for the cat.

I am sure the majority of people on here care very much about their cats and for some this will mean they believe it is in cats welfare to keep it indoors. For others they will weigh up the risks and decide it's acceptable to allow cats outside.

I think what decision you come to will depend somewhat on experience, I've seen personally some of the truly horrific things that happen to cats that roam, some accidental, some inflicted on them by man... So yes, I guess this colours my judgement.


----------



## Aurelia

DoubleTrouble said:


> well I KNOW my Billy aint happy if he's kept in allday! he pads at the door for us to open it over and over and over again! He don't go far though! and seldom outta the garden! He can (we don't think) no longer jump the wall or gate at the side but will try and sneak out when we are going out! BUT! we don't let him! HE COULD if he wanted get through the hedge (that is down ) at the front but he doesn't = perhaps because it fronts a road!
> Smokey lived to be twenty! Bill is seventeen - don't think I bei changing my opinion based on folk that say cats are happier inside!


DT I have said several times now ... cats that have previously been outside will not adapt the same way as a cat who has never been outside.

It's not impossible for a cat that has been out to adapt to being indoors only (if the circumstance should mean this was the only real choice) but I wouldn't tell someone to do it! I do think it would be unfair to stop a cat going out that has previously been aloud. Though, again if circumstances changed (you moved or whatever to a dangerous area) so would by advice on the matter.


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

Aurelia said:


> The example you give does not convince me that your cat actually wanted to go outside and walk on the roof tops.
> 
> 1. your cat wouldn't have been able to see the roof tops so how would it of known they were there?
> 
> 2. One of my girls is so determined to get into every single little space in the house ... well I can quite believe it would have been more to do with being nosey and wanting to see where the hole would lead. Or if your cat was entire it would have also been another reason.
> 
> Honestly, unless a cat has previously had access to the outdoors they can not know what they are missing to miss it! It's just not possible IMO.
> 
> If your cats were not happy indoors *ducks for cover* that would be more because they didn't have enough entertainment and will have been bored ... or didn't like each others company.
> 
> Out of interest though, can you describe to me what convinced you your cats weren't happy? What did they do that made you think this was the case?


My cats was neutered.

He could see the roof tops by looking out of the windows.

The window he got out of the roof to one side was angled that's how he jumped out onto it.

Why else would he go into our bedroom scale up the curtains push himself through a louvre and jump onto a roof if he didn't want to go out!!!

Bearing in mind we lived in a flat 

That wasn't the only time he escaped either he did it again on another occasion.

The cats had great fun together and lots of entertainment thank you very much.


----------



## Amethyst

Aurelia said:


> It's not impossible for a cat that has been out to adapt to being indoors only (if the circumstance should mean this was the only real choice) but I wouldn't tell someone to do it! I do think it would be unfair to stop a cat going out that has previously been aloud. Though, again if circumstances changed (you moved or whatever to a dangerous area) so would by advice on the matter.


I had a battle worn rescue boy who despite having been shot loved to get out and about  I also had an adopted "street cat" that would not go out at all, I think he had too many bad memories 

My sis has a cat that was allowed out for the first few years of his life in previous home, now he won't go past his front step!

In my experience, it's surprising how many cats that have spent time roaming do settle to an indoor life ... by choice sometimes ... but not all.


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

Sacremist said:


> Of course, if my cats did this, I would not keep them in, because they are obviously unhappy. The point is that they do not do this. They never have. They show no signs of being unhappy. Unfortunately, people who prefer to allow their cats to roam do so because they believe cats MUST BE unhappy if they are kept indoors. This has not been my experience so obviously, I cannot agree with them.


Yes I agree if they are happy indoors all good 

God it's so much easier when they are in apart from litter trays!!!

The one I have now is a stray I adopted who wants to be out and comes in on his terms.

I had to keep him in once after a fight. My god he was pacing all the time - meowing at the door all the time. Jumping up at the window ledge.

It was awful


----------



## catsmum

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Because it's an animal.
> 
> If the cat is happy to roam as many have always done why is it your decision to put a stop to it?
> 
> If the cat is happy to stay indoors that's fine and wouldn't we all love it if they did
> 
> But I would say majority of cats love to go out and wander whether it be just in the garden or further afield.
> 
> Can you not let the cat choose whether to go out or not?
> 
> For me I get all the angst and safety issues. No one wants to find their cat injured or dead.
> 
> But I still think that as an animal it should have the right to wander as it wants to.
> We have loads of pet cats around our neighbourhood who are out at all different times- maybe I have gotten more used to seeing them this way???
> That's just my opinion and we are all different.
> 
> Hey maybe we should get one of those pet psychics to ask the cat " do you want to stay in or go out?"


i am not denying any of that, i was just pointing out how weak your "let the cat choose" arguement was

do you think a cat would CHOOSE to be neutered or microchipped or have its teeth cleaned

its a weak arguement to say the cat should have the right to choose somethings, like going outdoors, but then argue we get them vaccinated and neutered because its in their best interests


----------



## Sacrechat

Chez87 said:


> The only thing I think that has changed as far as children being allowed to wander far and wide is the fact that nowadays, due to the media, we are more aware of the dangers. I don't think it is any more unsafe for kids to be outside now than it was 20 years ago. I just think parents are more scared these days as they have been alerted to the dangers. I am only 23 but I was much the same as you, and as soon as I got home from school I would be out all evening till nighttime, from when I was about age 9. Even if my mum didn't know where I was! In fact she was at work in the evenings.
> 
> Anyway...sorry to go off topic!


I agree but the point is that people's awareness of danger has changed their attitude to letting children out just as our awareness of the danger to our cats has altered many people's attitude to letting them roam.:001_smile:


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

catsmum said:


> i am not denying any of that, i was just pointing out how weak your "let the cat choose" arguement was
> 
> do you think a cat would CHOOSE to be neutered or microchipped or have its teeth cleaned
> 
> its a weak arguement to say the cat should have the right to choose somethings, like going outdoors, but then argue we get them vaccinated and neutered because its in their best interests


Oh I wasn't arguing?? just expressing an opinion.

As I have said see BOTH sides


----------



## Myanimalmadhouse

Sacremist said:


> I agree but the point is that people's awareness of danger has changed their attitude to letting children out just as our awareness of the danger to our cats has altered many people's attitude to letting them roam.:001_smile:


Erm yeah this has come up a couple of times in this thread but kids do still go out around here (maybe I live in timewarp or something) My 11 year old goes to the park most evenings - admittedly we can see the park from our house and he has his mobile on him at all times but him and all of his friends call for eachother and play out at the park most evenings.

It doesn't mean we worry any less but also I feel sometimes you can be over protective too.

As I say it really should be up to the individual owners decision depending on their situation and only they know their cat!

Mine all have a routine up at 7am, breakfast then one goes back to the bedroom and the other 4 line up at the window for it to be opened - 2 will dash out and come back at lunch and to use the litter tray then at tea time (when the window closes) 1 will sit just on the outside of the window with occasional wander round the garden and Goose just sits on the inside of the window - but god help me if im late opening it as Goose is the one that yowls the house down for it to be opened - he doesn't WANT to go outside but he wants the CHOICE if he so desired!

Every cat is different and every owner/house/area is too which is why you cant say its either right or wrong for a cat to be let outdoors :001_smile:


----------



## Sacrechat

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Because it's an animal.
> 
> If the cat is happy to roam as many have always done why is it your decision to put a stop to it?


In that case, why should we put a stop to dogs roaming? What about tigers who wander into villages in Africa, why should they be prevented from wandering where they like?


----------



## Myanimalmadhouse

Sacremist said:


> In that case, why should we put a stop to dogs roaming? What about tigers who wander into villages in Africa, why should they be prevented from wandering where they like?


Seriously????


----------



## RAINYBOW

I could never have kept my old cat in, he was an ex Farm cat and it would have driven him BONKERS, i wouldn't have ever wanted to to be honest.

He suffered just about every cat owners worst nightmare and was killed by loose dogs when he was sunning himself on a neighbours drive, he was just too old and they outpaced him . Would i have kept him in all those years if i had known...... Nope and given the choice he would still have asked to go out every day i am sure.

Life is full of risks, i could get run over tomorrow, or attacked, or killed but that doesn't stop me from going out why is it different for a cat 

I understand there are areas where it may be deemed unsuitable for cats to roam but to be perfectly honest (and i am not wishing to offend) I wouldnt have cats if that was the case, I chose my current house over a much better one because this one was safer for the cat i had at the time.

Re the original post, it actually used to be perfectly acceptable to let dogs roam, it's only relatively recently that it is deemed unacceptable. I would say in my opinion that a roaming dog is probably considered more of a nuisance/danger to the public than a roaming cat hence the change in attitude towards it.

If i had ever owned a dog that had as much sense as the cats i have owned then there is no reason it couldn't take itself for a walk but the dogs i have owned wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes 

If people own cats that are happy to be in then fab, my friend has 2 that have been both indoor and outdoor cats depending on where they have lived and seem to adapt to both lifestyles happily but if you have an *outdoorsy *cat IMO should be allowed it's freedom :001_smile:


----------



## canuckjill

Sacremist said:


> In that case, why should we put a stop to dogs roaming? What about tigers who wander into villages in Africa, why should they be prevented from wandering where they like?


because they are more of a threat to humans then domesticated cats as in biting etc. Tigers well I can relate it to cougars around here, they are a threat to people, livestock and dog walkers so here they are tranquilized and moved to an appropriate area. One of the things that happens when we share the world decisions have to be made on acceptable and not acceptable


----------



## wind1

Dogs have become more domesticated by us over the years than cats have so they are totally different in their needs. Cats still have more wild instincts than dogs do. I would never keep my cats in, they come and go as they please through their cat flap even at night which I know many people would frown upon. To deny them this right to roam is something I would not do. I can understand people wanting to keep their cats in to protect them from dangers outside but it is not something I personally would do. To see them chasing leaves in the breeze and dashing around madly in the garden running up trees tells me they are happy. I'm also not sure about the idea that what they haven't had they can't miss. They can see out of the window and smell the air when doors or windows are opened so I think their natural instinct to roam would kick in. I'm not saying cats who are kept in are not happy but I do believe they could be happier if allowed access to outside.


----------



## Sacrechat

Myanimalmadhouse said:


> Every cat is different and every owner/house/area is too which is why you cant say its either right or wrong for a cat to be let outdoors :001_smile:


When have I said someone is wrong to let their cats roam? I have never tried to say what is the right or wrong thing to do. I am not telling other people not to let their cats roam, I am saying that I do not and will not let my cats roam and given my reasons why. I have also said that I know my cats are not unhappy, I'm not suggesting that other people's cats are happy or unhappy. I was using the change in attitudes of parents towards letting their children roam, the way we used to, as an example of how some people's attitudes towards their cats have changed in line with those of parents, nothing more. I am a teacher and I speak with a lot of parents and I know their attitudes have changed from what they tell me. I am not saying every single parent thinks like this, but a significant percentage of the parents I speak to have different attitudes to those of parents when I was a kid.


----------



## Sacrechat

Myanimalmadhouse said:


> Seriously????


Yes, seriously, if you are going to tell us that one animal should not be restricted because it is their right to roam then this should apply to all animals.


----------



## Sacrechat

canuckjill said:


> because they are more of a threat to humans then domesticated cats as in biting etc. Tigers well I can relate it to cougars around here, they are a threat to people, livestock and dog walkers so here they are tranquilized and moved to an appropriate area. One of the things that happens when we share the world decisions have to be made on acceptable and not acceptable


I'm not denying that dogs and tigers are more of a danger to humans, but others could use the argument that cats are a danger to wildlife and so the law might change telling us we have to keep them inside in future. The point is that if we can make decisions about stopping one type of animal from roaming, I don't see why we cannot make similar decisions for another.


----------



## RAINYBOW

Sacremist said:


> When have I said someone is wrong to let their cats roam? I have never tried to say what is the right or wrong thing to do. I am not telling other people not to let their cats roam, I am saying that I do not and will not let my cats roam and given my reasons why. I have also said that I know my cats are not unhappy, I'm not suggesting that other people's cats are happy or unhappy. I was using the change in attitudes of parents towards letting their children roam, the way we used to, as an example of how some people's attitudes towards their cats have changed in line with those of parents, nothing more. I am a teacher and I speak with a lot of parents and I know their attitudes have changed from what they tell me. I am not saying every single parent thinks like this, but a significant percentage of the parents I speak to have different attitudes to those of parents when I was a kid.


To be honest most parents fears are misplaced and driven by media hysteria. I don't believe in alot of areas it is significantly more dangerous now than it was 25 years ago to let kids play out.


----------



## Myanimalmadhouse

Erm -"When have I said someone is wrong to let their cats roam? " :-then your next post:-



Sacremist said:


> Yes, seriously, if you are going to tell us that one animal should not be restricted because it is their right to roam then this should apply to all animals.


Would that not be saying that cat should not be allowed to roam? Especially being as you compared it to dogs and then Tigers???????

Well I shall admit I shall keep my cats completely indoors when you find that bizare unheard of article of a human being mauled/eaten/killed by a domestic cat - for the safety of the public


----------



## Myanimalmadhouse

Sacremist said:


> I'm not denying that dogs and tigers are more of a danger to humans, but others could use the argument that cats are a danger to wildlife and so the law might change telling us we have to keep them inside in future. The point is that if we can make decisions about stopping one type of animal from roaming, I don't see why we cannot make similar decisions for another.


The only wildlife my animals are a danger to are usually considered "pests" and the local school is extremly happy with the fact that one of mine helps with their rat control problem!


----------



## Guest

Cockerpoo lover said:


> My cats was neutered.
> 
> He could see the roof tops by looking out of the windows.
> 
> The window he got out of the roof to one side was angled that's how he jumped out onto it.
> 
> Why else would he go into our bedroom scale up the curtains push himself through a louvre and jump onto a roof if he didn't want to go out!!!
> 
> Bearing in mind we lived in a flat
> 
> That wasn't the only time he escaped either he did it again on another occasion.
> 
> The cats had great fun together and lots of entertainment thank you very much.


My Billy used to jump out of the bathroom window onto the garage roof!
I DO make sure he is in EVERY night though as we have a fox come visit and would not not fancy his chances if Mr Fox were hungry!


----------



## MatildaG

I personally choose to keep my cat in because I currently do not have a safe and secure cat-proof outdoor area. I cannot imagine the worry of letting your beloved pet out to go god only knows where and hope that at some point they will come back safely. In the same way as I would if I had a dog, a rabbit, a lizard, a sheep, a small child.... I wouldn't even leave my favourite shoes out on the street 

With dogs there is the risk that they could hurt a human so I can understand they are not allowed to roam. It's almost unfortunate that cats don't have this ability - if they did maybe they wouldn't become the prey of the many ruthless people out there. 

I'm sure most cats would love the outdoors, but in today's age of cars, sick people, cat haters, dogs, foxes and god knows what else - I think the only option could ever be a cat proof outdoor area.

I see dead cats on my hour commute to work on an almost fornightly basis - every time I'm sad and every time I'm glad I left mine in the safety of his home.

MG X


----------



## RAINYBOW

DoubleTrouble said:


> My Billy used to jump out of the bathroom window onto the garage roof!
> I DO make sure he is in EVERY night though as we have a fox come visit and would not not fancy his chances if Mr Fox were hungry!


Must be something about the name, my Billy used to go out the bathroom window and i never worked out how he got down from there, we think he used to get across somehow on to the neighbours sill and then in their window and out their catflap because we didn't have one at the time : :nono: He was a right scamp  Had multiple homes at any one time including the doctors surgery where he would go when we went to work and sit on a specific chair in the waiting room because he got loads of fuss


----------



## canuckjill

Sacremist said:


> I'm not denying that dogs and tigers are more of a danger to humans, but others could use the argument that cats are a danger to wildlife and so the law might change telling us we have to keep them inside in future. The point is that if we can make decisions about stopping one type of animal from roaming, I don't see why we cannot make similar decisions for another.


I don't know what wildlife you are talking about but here my cats hunt mice yes gophers yes sometimes birds yes not magpies though they attack, baby bunnies yes , deer no, pack attack no, cows no, sheep no, bear no, cougars no and to tell you the truth the more mice they get the better as I live in a farming community. And the laws may change and if they do then I will maybe change my cats lives otherwise they will continue to be indoor/outdoor cats


----------



## Shayden

out of curiosity id ask the OP how many dogs do you know of who can go off and find there way home every night


----------



## Guest

Myanimalmadhouse said:


> The only wildlife my animals are a danger to are usually considered "pests" and the local school is extremly happy with the fact that one of mine helps with their rat control problem!


My mums cat! had part of its nose bitten off by a rat! going back to 1960 though and we lived on a farm at the time! Cat still live a long and happy life! and probably caught loads more rats!

Would have been usful if it had still been around when I met my first husband


----------



## Aurelia

Myanimalmadhouse said:


> Every cat is different and every owner/house/area is too which is why you cant say its either right or wrong for a cat to be let outdoors :001_smile:


I don't think anyone has said that 

I know I'm just sharing personal experience and my personal opinion because of that.


----------



## Amethyst

RAINYBOW said:


> I
> I understand there are areas where it may be deemed unsuitable for cats to roam but to be perfectly honest (and i am not wishing to offend) I wouldnt have cats if that was the case, I chose my current house over a much better one because this one was safer for the cat i had at the time.


I think it would be sad if people who love, and can offer a caring permanent home to a cat refrained from doing so because area was not safe to let them roam.

There are a lot of people who live in areas that I wouldn't let a cat wander ... and to be honest, PERSONALLY I think that's most if not all towns ... But there are many cats sitting in rescues who would love an indoor home there ... not all cats, but many


----------



## Amethyst

Shayden said:


> out of curiosity id ask the OP how many dogs do you know of who can go off and find there way home every night


Most dogs did just that years ago when it was the norm for many owners to let them wander all day and night, oblivious to where their animal was 

Many poor dogs are still turfed out all day and only go home to hopefully eat and sleep.

Awful


----------



## RAINYBOW

Amethyst said:


> I think it would be sad if people who love, and can offer a caring permanent home to a cat refrained from doing so because area was not safe to let them roam.
> 
> There are a lot of people who live in areas that I wouldn't let a cat wander ... and to be honest, PERSONALLY I think that's most if not all towns ... But there are many cats sitting in rescues who would love an indoor home there ... not all cats, but many


Oh i agree and i would happily give a cat an indoor home if i felt they would be happy with that  BUT if i wanted a kitten but lived by a main road (for example) personally i just wouldn't because i cant imagine having an indoor young cat because i have only ever lived with outoorsy cats (most of ours have been farm or pub litters so almost ferral ) IMO not all cats are suited to indoor life and to rehome a cat that wasn't and then keep it in in my opinion would be wrong, bit like adopting a high energy dog and then going out to work all day and shutting it in a utility room, some people make it work but it's just not for me 

I would love another cat now and really miss having one but i just cant trust Oscar and wouldn't want to put a cat at risk so what i want comes second to what is the best thing to do.


----------



## Aurelia

RAINYBOW said:


> I could never have kept my old cat in, he was an ex Farm cat and it would have driven him BONKERS, i wouldn't have ever wanted to to be honest.
> 
> He suffered just about every cat owners worst nightmare and was killed by loose dogs when he was sunning himself on a neighbours drive, he was just too old and they outpaced him . Would i have kept him in all those years if i had known...... Nope and given the choice he would still have asked to go out every day i am sure.
> 
> Life is full of risks, i could get run over tomorrow, or attacked, or killed but that doesn't stop me from going out why is it different for a cat
> 
> *I understand there are areas where it may be deemed unsuitable for cats to roam but to be perfectly honest (and i am not wishing to offend) I wouldnt have cats if that was the case, I chose my current house over a much better one because this one was safer for the cat i had at the time.*
> 
> Re the original post, it actually used to be perfectly acceptable to let dogs roam, it's only relatively recently that it is deemed unacceptable. I would say in my opinion that a roaming dog is probably considered more of a nuisance/danger to the public than a roaming cat hence the change in attitude towards it.
> 
> If i had ever owned a dog that had as much sense as the cats i have owned then there is no reason it couldn't take itself for a walk but the dogs i have owned wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes
> 
> If people own cats that are happy to be in then fab, my friend has 2 that have been both indoor and outdoor cats depending on where they have lived and seem to adapt to both lifestyles happily but if you have an *outdoorsy *cat IMO should be allowed it's freedom :001_smile:


I don't understand this 

If dogs also used to roam, why do people have dogs now if it's not right to stop a natural instinct?

Or are dogs domesticated enough now for it to be no longer a natural instinct?

So what about pedigree cats that have come from a line of 100+ year old. All peds and all (as far as I know, and certainly for the last few decades) been bred and kept indoors only.

Someone else mentioned about cats chasing leaves in the wind and what not. Believe me you can replicated just about anything indoors these days. The Da Bird can near as damn it replicate a bird, you can use a laser pen to simulate a leaf blowing in the wind ... It doesn't have to be as bad as you make out. 

Believe me, my opinion is one born of experience. Experience that I never ever want to go through again. But I don't think I shouldnt have cats because they can't go outside (though they are having their own run for outside built soon). I make a concerted effort to play with my girls for hours every day. This is very difficult for me physically, but I push myself because I want my girls to enjoy their life indoors with me.


----------



## Sacrechat

Myanimalmadhouse said:


> Erm -"When have I said someone is wrong to let their cats roam? " :-then your next post:-
> 
> Would that not be saying that cat should not be allowed to roam? Especially being as you compared it to dogs and then Tigers???????
> 
> Well I shall admit I shall keep my cats completely indoors when you find that bizare unheard of article of a human being mauled/eaten/killed by a domestic cat - for the safety of the public


That response was made to this statement by Cockerpoo Lover "If the cat is happy to roam as many have always done why is it your decision to put a stop to it?" It was not intended as a response arguing in favour of EVERYONE stopping their cats from roaming as you seem intent on believing. I do not like being told that I am wrong for stopping my cats from roaming anymore than someone who believes in allowing cats to roam wants to be told they are wrong. By asking 'why is it your decision to put a stop to it?" that is exactly what Cockerpoo lover is doing.

You, however, are intent on twisting what I say because you are clearly on some mission to start an argument.


----------



## Amethyst

Sacremist said:


> You, however, are intent on twisting what I say because you are clearly on some mission to start an argument.


Just ignore them and don't let them provoke you. I understand your posts and I am sure others do to


----------



## Milly Cat

In terms of pet safety it is no different letting a cat out than a dog. I think we've established that cats and dogs face the same dangers, therefore it is a choice every cat owner has to make. I'm pro letting my cat out as I think she'd get bored all day in on her own despite the toys she has. Most of the time she does no more than lie in the garden watching things or go exploring with a neighbour's cat into some of the neighbouring gardens. We live in a terrace where gardens back onto other gardens, so it is unlikely she will encounter a road.

However, in terms of safety of the general public there are many reasons that have already been given by other posters why it is acceptable to let out a cat and not a dog. 

I'm not really sure why this thread is still going  It does read like an argument over who is right in the cats in/out debate


----------



## Sacrechat

Myanimalmadhouse said:


> The only wildlife my animals are a danger to are usually considered "pests" and the local school is extremly happy with the fact that one of mine helps with their rat control problem!


Then you clearly haven't been watching as many nature programmes as I have in which concern about cats killing certain wildlife has for some become a problem. As far as I am concerned cats do what cats do, my reasons for keeping them indoors has nothing to do with these concerns. The point is that there are very good reasons, in some people's minds, for keeping cats indoors. Concerns which for them are just as good as the argument for keeping dogs from roaming.


----------



## Amethyst

Milly Cat said:


> I'm not really sure why this thread is still going  It does read like an argument over who is right in the cats in/out debate


I think there are only a couple of members in argumentative mode. I guess it's still going as people wish to contribute as you have just done


----------



## Guest

I will add! I am quiet lucky as we live in a reasonably quite area! BUT! if I EVER have a new kitten I would think very carefully before letting that out due to the increase in traffic on the roads! Spect I could aways lead train it and walk it with the dogs! Are there any laws about picking up cat poo do you guys know?? And can you buy kitty poo bags!! (may have to take that to dragons den) But NO there is no way I would stop my current cat going out - not at least whilst he has his vision and his hearing!!
BUT!! He is ALWAYS in at night! NEVER MISS!


----------



## RAINYBOW

Aurelia said:


> I don't understand this
> 
> If dogs also used to roam, why do people have dogs now if it's not right to stop a natural instinct?
> 
> Or are dogs domesticated enough now for it to be no longer a natural instinct?
> 
> So what about pedigree cats that have come from a line of 100+ year old. All peds and all (as far as I know, and certainly for the last few decades) been bred and kept indoors only.
> 
> Someone else mentioned about cats chasing leaves in the wind and what not. Believe me you can replicated just about anything indoors these days. The Da Bird can near as damn it replicate a bird, you can use a laser pen to simulate a leaf blowing in the wind ... It doesn't have to be as bad as you make out.
> 
> Believe me, my opinion is one born of experience. Experience that I never ever want to go through again. But I don't think I shouldnt have cats because they can't go outside (though they are having their own run for outside built soon). I make a concerted effort to play with my girls for hours every day. This is very difficult for me physically, but I push myself because I want my girls to enjoy their life indoors with me.


My dog doesn't drive me insane trying to get out of the house all day my old cat did (obviously when we moved we had to keep him in for a bit and he HATED it)

If you read back i do make the point about cats that WANT to be outdoors as opposed to those that are happy to be indoors cats and do not "worry" all the time to go out 

I don't really undestand why you are defending yourself hun, if your cats are happy indoors then great but i am simply talking from my own experiences and that is of owning cats that were "bred" to be outdoors. The farm cats we had came from generations of hardcore mousers, almost ferral. You can't compare the 2 it's like comparing the needs of a lap dog v a gundog.

Seriously it would have been cruel in Billys case to have suddenly decided he had to be an "indoors" cat/ I had to make some very tough decisions with Billy because he was such a free spirit but every decision i made was based on what was in his best interests which is why even though he was killed i do not feel in any way reponsible or bad about letting him roam.


----------



## Myanimalmadhouse

Sacremist said:


> That response was made to this statement by Cockerpoo Lover "If the cat is happy to roam as many have always done why is it your decision to put a stop to it?" It was not intended as a response arguing in favour of EVERYONE stopping their cats from roaming as you seem intent on believing. I do not like being told that I am wrong for stopping my cats from roaming anymore than someone who believes in allowing cats to roam wants to be told they are wrong. By asking 'why is it your decision to put a stop to it?" that is exactly what Cockerpoo lover is doing.
> 
> You, however, are intent on twisting what I say because you are clearly on some mission to start an argument.


My appologies, my intent is not to start an arguement at all, its just if you go back and read all the posts (except for one very rightly deleted one!)- maybe no one has outright said "_You should not let your cats outside if you love them_" however many of the posts have certainly _implied_ it

It just seems to appear from all the responses that most of those who have outdoor or outdoor/indoor cats can understand the reasons for keeping indoor cats yet those with only indoor cats seem to be set against it?


----------



## Amethyst

DoubleTrouble said:


> I will add! I am quiet lucky as we live in a reasonably quite area! BUT! if I EVER have a new kitten I would think very carefully before letting that out due to the increase in traffic on the roads! Spect I could aways lead train it and walk it with the dogs! Are there any laws about picking up cat poo do you guys know?? And can you buy kitty poo bags!! (may have to take that to dragons den) But NO there is no way I would stop my current cat going out - not at least whilst he has his vision and his hearing!!
> BUT!! He is ALWAYS in at night! NEVER MISS!


Yes, times, ideas and circumstances change don't they 

I don't know about kitty poo bags but I know a LOT of people get upset about cats pooping in their gardens. My sis has a cat that does a big doo dah on her lawn most nights 

But that's another thread


----------



## Aurelia

Milly Cat said:


> In terms of pet safety it is no different letting a cat out than a dog. I think we've established that cats and dogs face the same dangers, therefore it is a choice every cat owner has to make. I'm pro letting my cat out as *I think she'd get bored all day in on her own despite the toys she has.* Most of the time she does no more than lie in the garden watching things or go exploring with a neighbour's cat into some of the neighbouring gardens. We live in a terrace where gardens back onto other gardens, so it is unlikely she will encounter a road.
> 
> However, in terms of safety of the general public there are many reasons that have already been given by other posters why it is acceptable to let out a cat and not a dog.
> 
> I'm not really sure why this thread is still going  It does read like an argument over who is right in the cats in/out debate


They say it's best to have 2 cats if they are to be left alone for long periods in the day time. Then they hopefully wont get bored as they will be able to play and interact with each other.

Either that or you play and interact with them yourself. My girls get both, lucky gits :lol:

A cat left on its own all day with only toys to keep it entertain will get bored I've no doubt.


----------



## Guest

It is what CATS do, they are hunters and they are MEANT to be roaming the streets, fields, chasing mice etc, it is there nature. 

You could not let a dog out to roam on his own as could be very dangerous for starters, i would say that they are not as street wise as cats and need training where you do not TRAIN cats.


----------



## Sacrechat

RAINYBOW said:


> To be honest most parents fears are misplaced and driven by media hysteria. I don't believe in alot of areas it is significantly more dangerous now than it was 25 years ago to let kids play out.


I don't think it is significantly more dangerous either but since that was not the point I was trying to make, I don't see the relevance of this. The point is that attitudes have changed both insofar as kids are concerned and our pets are concerned.


----------



## RAINYBOW

Sacremist said:


> I don't think it is significantly more dangerous either but since that was not the point I was trying to make, I don't see the relevance of this. The point is that attitudes have changed both insofar as kids are concerned and our pets are concerned.


And i was making the point that maybe the fear is equally as misplaced 

((blimey its tetchy in here   ))


----------



## Amethyst

Myanimalmadhouse said:


> yet those with only indoor cats seem to be set against it?


And that is their perogative, peoples are entitled to their own ideas and opinions on this subject 

Other members have equally strong opinions on other aspects of cat care and welfare. We don't all agree but are urged to accept ...or rather tolerate them ... and not blow things out of proportion


----------



## Guest

KathrynH said:


> It is what CATS do, they are hunters and they are MEANT to be roaming the streets, fields, chasing mice etc, it is there nature.
> 
> You could not let a dog out to roam on his own as could be very dangerous for starters, i would say that they are not as street wise as cats and need training where you do not TRAIN cats.


Hey! I'll have you know My cat is trained to the whistle! serious!!! 
More reliable recall then the dogs I guarantee! and if anyone can tell me how to video it I will


----------



## Myanimalmadhouse

Amethyst said:


> Just ignore them and don't let them provoke you. I understand your posts and I am sure others do to


Oh thank goodness I was starting to wonder if I was actually making sense or if it only made sense in my head :blink:


----------



## Aurelia

RAINYBOW said:


> My dog doesn't drive me insane trying to get out of the house all day my old cat did (obviously when we moved we had to keep him in for a bit and he HATED it)
> 
> If you read back i do make the point about cats that WANT to be outdoors as opposed to those that are happy to be indoors cats and do not "worry" all the time to go out
> 
> *I don't really undestand why you are defending yourself hun*, if your cats are happy indoors then great but i am simply talking from my own experiences and that is of owning cats that were "bred" to be outdoors. The farm cats we had came from generations of hardcore mousers, almost ferral. You can't compare the 2 it's like comparing the needs of a lap dog v a gundog.
> 
> Seriously it would have been cruel in Billys case to have suddenly decided he had to be an "indoors" cat/ I had to make some very tough decisions with Billy because he was such a free spirit but every decision i made was based on what was in his best interests which is why even though he was killed i do not feel in any way reponsible or bad about letting him roam.


I think it's because I feel I needed to. In your previous post I bolded a bit in my quote in my last post (that's a bit confusing :crazy ... Because I do respect you and your views it took me by surprise and I felt a bit wounded  I know you said you mean no offence, but it is because I do share a lot of your views that I felt I was doing something wrong for a moment or two.

Hope that makes sense.


----------



## slavetorobbie

Wow, that was an interesting read. 
I don't have a great deal of knowledge and I'd never say I'm right and you're wrong to anyone as it's clearly personal choice. 
Even my own mind is contrasted for a couple of reasons. 
Robbie was an indoor cat for the first year of his life as we lived on the third floor in a dodgy area. He liked looking out of windows but I can honestly say I never felt he wasn't happy or fulfilled. He had millions of toys, trees, posts etc.
However, when we moved to a flat with a garden in a quiet area, his looking out of the window changed immediately. I am sure he knew he could go out there (without seeing us in the garden) and he did want to. And when we started letting him out, it was like a new cat. I'd never seen him run and jump the way he did outside, and like I said, he had plenty to do before the garden. He is content to just sit in the grass, watch the birds, chase flies, and it's honestly the loveliest thing in the world. He is a happier boy now, much more friendly and affectionate. 
Then there's the other side of the coin - two weeks ago he disappeared for the first time, having previously never left the garden. The worst week of my life ensued with no sleep, walking miles, searching for him and expecting to find him dead. Thankfully, I found him after a week, very skinny and happy to see me. I'm guessing he got stuck somewhere. We think another cat frightened him and he got lost. 
This experience has made me a lot more wary of him going out. But he loves it so much that I won't change my mind. Perhaps it depends on the cat, but first thing in the morning he wants to go out for a wee in my flower bed and he's quite happy to come in when called. 
The risks are there, and it's scary when you love your cats as much as we all do but if you believe you're making the right decision for your baby, that's what matters. 
I honestly believe he's having a much better quality of life, is more content and enriched the way he's living now, and that's what makes me put up with the nail-biting!!


----------



## Guest

DoubleTrouble said:


> Hey! I'll have you know My cat is trained to the whistle! serious!!!
> More reliable recall then the dogs I guarantee! and if anyone can tell me how to video it I will


Oh WOW!!

That is brilliant hun, you have trained him well haven't you.

Mine is absolutely crap  Just looks at me and walks off in the opposite direction. :glare:


----------



## Amethyst

Sacremist said:


> I don't think it is significantly more dangerous either but since that was not the point I was trying to make, I don't see the relevance of this. The point is that attitudes have changed both insofar as kids are concerned and our pets are concerned.


IN MY OPINION cats are definitely at more risk on the roads than they were and I have heard of more attacks on cats by dogs in recent years ... Guess cats have ALWAYS been cruelly treated and persecuted by some people ... I have heard of several cases of cat poisonings and I think most places has spells of cats going missing in large numbers from time to time 

If i had an outdoor cat, to be honest it would be the roads that would worry me and people with airguns ... mainly because of what I have seen


----------



## slavetorobbie

KathrynH said:


> Oh WOW!!
> 
> That is brilliant hun, you have trained him well haven't you.
> 
> Mine is absolutely crap  Just looks at me and walks off in the opposite direction. :glare:


Hehe mine has got a bit crafty lately and wedges himself into a bush that he knows I can't get into. Little sod! He soon comes running if there's food on offer though!


----------



## Myanimalmadhouse

DoubleTrouble said:


> Hey! I'll have you know My cat is trained to the whistle! serious!!!
> More reliable recall then the dogs I guarantee! and if anyone can tell me how to video it I will


I'd love to know how you managed that!
Gizmo will play fetch but if I blew a whistle they'd all look at me like I was off me rocker :crazy:


----------



## Sacrechat

canuckjill said:


> I don't know what wildlife you are talking about but here my cats hunt mice yes gophers yes sometimes birds yes not magpies though they attack, baby bunnies yes , deer no, pack attack no, cows no, sheep no, bear no, cougars no and to tell you the truth the more mice they get the better as I live in a farming community. And the laws may change and if they do then I will maybe change my cats lives otherwise they will continue to be indoor/outdoor cats


The point is there are always good reasons, as far as some people are concerned, why certain animals can be considered pests. Farmers consider foxes, birds or rabbits as pests, for example, and choose to hire people to eliminate them. Therefore, to argue that dogs could be dangerous is not really any different to saying an animal is a pest. Some people consider cats a pest. I am not one of them, I should add. Yes, they are very different reasons but equally as valid to the person complaining. Therefore, bringing me back to my original point, if we can make decisions about not letting one type of animal roam, namely a dog, we have the same right to make decisions about not letting other animals roam, in this case the cat.


----------



## slavetorobbie

Amethyst said:


> IN MY OPINION cats are definitely at more risk on the roads than they were and I have heard of more attacks on cats by dogs in recent years ... Guess cats have ALWAYS been cruelly treated and persecuted by some people ... I have heard of several cases of cat poisonings and I think most places has spells of cats going missing in large numbers from time to time
> 
> If i had an outdoor cat, to be honest it would be the roads that would worry me and people with airguns ... mainly because of what I have seen


This is true - it amazes me how much people can actually hate cats! Some neighbours of mine have put broken glass on their wall, presumably to deter thieves but all I can think of is all the cats around here that could get injured or worse. I have reported it to the council today and will be following it up this week. Luckily Robbie is not keen to leave the garden since his adventures and I am keeping a very close eye on him but there are a few cats around here that are out 24-7 and I do worry.


----------



## Sacrechat

Shayden said:


> out of curiosity id ask the OP how many dogs do you know of who can go off and find there way home every night


As a child, we had a dog that did just that because back then most dogs roamed. He always managed to find his way home for his meals too. Curious that!


----------



## Sacrechat

Aurelia said:


> I don't think anyone has said that
> 
> I know I'm just sharing personal experience and my personal opinion because of that.


Exactly what I've been saying all along Aurelia but Myanimalmadhouse is choosing to read things arse about tit and start a fight.


----------



## RAINYBOW

Aurelia said:


> I think it's because I feel I needed to. In your previous post I bolded a bit in my quote in my last post (that's a bit confusing :crazy) ... Because I do respect you and your views it took me by surprise and I felt a bit wounded  I know you said you mean no offence, but it is because I do share a lot of your views that I felt I was doing something wrong for a moment or two.
> 
> Hope that makes sense.


 Numpty. Remember who you are debating with 

I don't normally venture into cats (not having one anymore :cryin but have to say this is a subject i am interested in and have gained more insight into through the forum. Before i would have said no way a cat should be kept indoors based on just my own experiences but from listening and debating i have come to realise this isnt the case and cats have very different personalities.

The reason i suppose i responded is because of the inference that somehow it is wrong to let any cat out and i just cant agree with that based on the cats i have owned which like i said have been real outdoorsy cats  For example Billy came to me when he was about 4 from living on a farm most of his life, i think 10 days was the longest we ever managed to keep him in for and he was climbing the walls by that stage


----------



## Jenny1966

I have had experience of owning a dog, 2 cats that were allowed freely outside and now having an indoor cat. 

I would never have let my dog roam freely, he was quite a big dog and though very friendly didnt understand that some people didnt like his friendlyness, I would have been mortified if he jumped up at a child and hurt them unintentionally. That i think is very straightforward.

As for the cat debate ...... I had my first 2 cats in a house with a garden, I didnt even think about whether they should be allowed outside, they had a catflap and came and went as they pleased. They never went far, they lived quite happily to the age of 13 (they died within weeks of each other after a stressful move, but thats another story)

Molly is my cat now, I live in a flat so really have no choice on whether I should let her out. She is a very happy cat, has lots of toys to play with, loves her cuddles .... she sits and watches life outside by the window but has never attempted to get out. What she doesnt know, she doesnt miss IMO. I might in the future, if I ever get a house, let her out.

I think what I'm trying to say is it's a very personal choice with cats, no right or wrong way. With dogs you will always have the safety of others to consider.


----------



## Amethyst

slavetorobbie said:


> This is true - it amazes me how much people can actually hate cats! Some neighbours of mine have put broken glass on their wall, presumably to deter thieves but all I can think of is all the cats around here that could get injured or worse. I have reported it to the council today and will be following it up this week. Luckily Robbie is not keen to leave the garden since his adventures and I am keeping a very close eye on him but there are a few cats around here that are out 24-7 and I do worry.


Sadly some people REALLY do hate cats and I remember once being on a rescue stall and a guy stopped and said "Is ths a rescue for cats?" I thought he had a problem and needed help and explained that it wasn't cat specific, but we did help them.

He turned around and said "Cos I hate the ****** things" and walked off. The venom in his voice was horrible. Seriously to think my cat could come in contact with someone like him while roaming ... well it makes my blood run cold.


----------



## Shayden

Sacremist said:


> As a child, we had a dog that did just that because back then most dogs roamed. He always managed to find his way home for his meals too. Curious that!


so 1 dog out of how many? and like you said... this was when you were a child.... dont you think things have changed


----------



## Lumboo

Cats are far more street wise and independant animals. Domesticated dogs are very dependant on their owners, to the point of providing loyalty in abuse. An abused cat would sod off and find a new home given half the chance.

Dogs are therefore brilliant in being trained, as to please their masters they will do anything. Guide Dog even hold off going for a wee until commanded. Can you really see a cat doing the same thing?

The two animals, although both domesticated wild animals have totally different natural instincts and I don't think you can begin to compare the two.


----------



## Sacrechat

Amethyst said:


> I think it would be sad if people who love, and can offer a caring permanent home to a cat refrained from doing so because area was not safe to let them roam.
> 
> There are a lot of people who live in areas that I wouldn't let a cat wander ... and to be honest, PERSONALLY I think that's most if not all towns ... But there are many cats sitting in rescues who would love an indoor home there ... not all cats, but many


I totally agree. People complain about cats in rescues and yet suggestions that we should not have cats if we do not live in the RIGHT area means many many more cats would be without loving homes. It's ridiculous.


----------



## Milly Cat

Aurelia said:


> They say it's best to have 2 cats if they are to be left alone for long periods in the day time. Then they hopefully wont get bored as they will be able to play and interact with each other.
> 
> Either that or you play and interact with them yourself. My girls get both, lucky gits :lol:
> 
> A cat left on its own all day with only toys to keep it entertain will get bored I've no doubt.


Hi Aurelia,

Yes, it was recommended that we get two cats but as a first-time cat owner I was nervous enough about getting one! Thankfully Milly has been a sweetheart  It has crossed my mind to get another cat but don't want to ruin the lovely relationship we have with Milly. Luckily we have the neighbour's cat that comes calling round every day and they go off together, though I do wonder what Milly will think should they move or something happen to him (she obviously misses him when the family is away and he is presumably in a cattery). It's something to consider for the future.


----------



## RAINYBOW

Amethyst said:


> IN MY OPINION cats are definitely at more risk on the roads than they were and I have heard of more attacks on cats by dogs in recent years ... Guess cats have ALWAYS been cruelly treated and persecuted by some people ... I have heard of several cases of cat poisonings and I think most places has spells of cats going missing in large numbers from time to time
> 
> If i had an outdoor cat, to be honest it would be the roads that would worry me and people with airguns ... mainly because of what I have seen


I think cruelty has always been there to be honest  I am not going to agree on the road thing though, Fast roads have always been an issue for cats (hence my post earlier) but most outdoors cats are fantastic at avoiding traffic but again as i said it would depend on the type of road wether i would comsider having an outdoor cat.

I would say again, bad things can happen outdoors to all of us but we don't stay in just incase and eventually we do have to let our kids make that first walk to the shops on their own or school or out with their mates because you cant keep them in forever, i just see it like that i suppose.


----------



## Myanimalmadhouse

Sacremist said:


> Exactly what I've been saying all along Aurelia but Myanimalmadhouse is choosing to read things arse about tit and start a fight.


I do alot of things arse about tit but it doesn't usually start a fight :lol:


----------



## Amethyst

Well really interesting reading 

One other thing that has not been mentioned is the concern of cats going missing and never knowing what happened to them, again I appreciate it's a risk many cat owners are willing to take and that is their choice.

I would imagine those in favour of allowing cats to roam (and I used to be one of them) have never lost a cat to a road traffic accident or had their cat shot or poisoned ... and hopefully they never will! But I do wonder if that would influence thier thoughts on this?


----------



## luvmydogs

Years ago I had a beautiful Border Collie who had a perfect temperament with people, children and other dogs. His one fault was that he always wanted to be outside. He would have loved to roam the streets all day. Should I have let him???


----------



## Sacrechat

Milly Cat said:


> In terms of pet safety it is no different letting a cat out than a dog. I think we've established that cats and dogs face the same dangers, therefore it is a choice every cat owner has to make. I'm pro letting my cat out as I think she'd get bored all day in on her own despite the toys she has. Most of the time she does no more than lie in the garden watching things or go exploring with a neighbour's cat into some of the neighbouring gardens. We live in a terrace where gardens back onto other gardens, so it is unlikely she will encounter a road.
> 
> However, in terms of safety of the general public there are many reasons that have already been given by other posters why it is acceptable to let out a cat and not a dog.
> 
> I'm not really sure why this thread is still going  It does read like an argument over who is right in the cats in/out debate


It didn't to me either until Myanimalmadness started pointing fingers and twisting what people say so they could turn it into one.:nono:


----------



## slavetorobbie

Amethyst said:


> Sadly some people REALLY do hate cats and I remember once being on a rescue stall and a guy stopped and said "Is ths a rescue for cats?" I thought he had a problem and needed help and explained that it wasn't cat specific, but we did help them.
> 
> He turned around and said "Cos I hate the ****** things" and walked off. The venom in his voice was horrible. Seriously to think my cat could come in contact with someone like him while roaming ... well it makes my blood run cold.


Yes it's awful. When I was trying to find out how best to go about the glass on the wall, I did some googling and came across a gardening forum which enlightened me a great deal! They were discussing things like putting creosote on fences, barbed wire, vicious dogs trained to scare off cats... I was horrified. Their main grievance was that cats use their gardens as litter trays. Hardly worth mutilation! 'Luckily' for me, Robbie only uses our garden to do his business!


----------



## RAINYBOW

Sacremist said:


> I totally agree. People complain about cats in rescues and yet suggestions that we should not have cats if we do not live in the RIGHT area means many many more cats would be without loving homes. It's ridiculous.


Errrr excuse me i said *I* wouldn't, which is my personal choice because i have only ever owned outdoor cats that would have gone mental indoors and i also clarified my point in my reply to Aurelia.

Please don't call my opinion ridiculous thats really rude


----------



## Myanimalmadhouse

Myanimalmadhouse said:


> I do alot of things arse about tit but it doesn't usually start a fight :lol:


Sorry I shall keep my shut from now on but I think you'll find its not just me that reads it like that ---- *sits back and will read quietly before eastenders starts*


----------



## RAINYBOW

Amethyst said:


> Well really interesting reading
> 
> One other thing that has not been mentioned is the concern of cats going missing and never knowing what happened to them, again I appreciate it's a risk many cat owners are willing to take and that is their choice.
> 
> I would imagine those in favour of allowing cats to roam (and I used to be one of them) have never lost a cat to a road traffic accident or had their cat shot or poisoned ... and hopefully they never will! But I do wonder if that would influence thier thoughts on this?


Read my first post


----------



## Guest

Amethyst said:


> Well really interesting reading
> 
> One other thing that has not been mentioned is the concern of cats going missing and never knowing what happened to them, again I appreciate it's a risk many cat owners are willing to take and that is their choice.
> 
> I would imagine those in favour of allowing cats to roam (and I used to be one of them) have never lost a cat to a road traffic accident or had their cat shot or poisoned ... and hopefully they never will! But I do wonder if that would influence thier thoughts on this?


Do you know what i think you are right, until you experience these things you have NO idea how it feels, and you think "oh that wont happen to my cat". Wrong thinking it may be i think that is how i feel anyway.


----------



## Sacrechat

RAINYBOW said:


> My dog doesn't drive me insane trying to get out of the house all day my old cat did (obviously when we moved we had to keep him in for a bit and he HATED it)
> 
> If you read back i do make the point about cats that WANT to be outdoors as opposed to those that are happy to be indoors cats and do not "worry" all the time to go out
> 
> I don't really undestand why you are defending yourself hun, if your cats are happy indoors then great but i am simply talking from my own experiences and that is of owning cats that were "bred" to be outdoors. The farm cats we had came from generations of hardcore mousers, almost ferral. You can't compare the 2 it's like comparing the needs of a lap dog v a gundog.
> 
> Seriously it would have been cruel in Billys case to have suddenly decided he had to be an "indoors" cat/ I had to make some very tough decisions with Billy because he was such a free spirit but every decision i made was based on what was in his best interests which is why even though he was killed i do not feel in any way reponsible or bad about letting him roam.


It's clearly not you trying to tell us that our cats should be allowed to roam, but others I have already mentioned are intent on trying to twist what we say because they want an argument.


----------



## Amethyst

RAINYBOW said:


> I think cruelty has always been there to be honest  I am not going to agree on the road thing though, Fast roads have always been an issue for cats (hence my post earlier) but most outdoors cats are fantastic at avoiding traffic but again as i said it would depend on the type of road wether i would comsider having an outdoor cat.


Roads are so much busier than 20 years ago! And while roads of all description have always been a danger, with the incredible increase of cars on the roads comes more cats killed ... My niece works for the local council and she says it's awful the number of calls they get to request cats killed on roads picked up :frown2:

She had a very distressed lady call recently looking for her cat and it turned out it was at local depot where deceased cats are taken, my niece said she was really upset as lady wanted to identify cat but it was in a very bad way and guy at depot said best not to see it ...


----------



## luvmydogs

KathrynH said:


> Do you know what i think you are right, until you experience these things you have NO idea how it feels, and you think "oh that wont happen to my cat". Wrong thinking it may be i think that is how i feel anyway.


One of my neighbours kept complaining about a cat that went into his greenhouse and peed and pood. One day he caught it and killed it with a hammer. He buried it and the owners will never have known where it went. I didn't know who the owner was but reported him to the RSPCA. They didn't even question him.


----------



## Sacrechat

Myanimalmadhouse said:


> My appologies, my intent is not to start an arguement at all, its just if you go back and read all the posts (except for one very rightly deleted one!)- maybe no one has outright said "_You should not let your cats outside if you love them_" however many of the posts have certainly _implied_ it
> 
> It just seems to appear from all the responses that most of those who have outdoor or outdoor/indoor cats can understand the reasons for keeping indoor cats yet those with only indoor cats seem to be set against it?


I don't agree, that is just your interpretation. You have consistently tried to twist my words and taken what I have said totally out of context. If you go back and read properly this time, you will see that your responses to some of mine do not match the post I was quoting.


----------



## Sacrechat

KathrynH said:


> It is what CATS do, they are hunters and they are MEANT to be roaming the streets, fields, chasing mice etc, it is there nature.
> 
> You could not let a dog out to roam on his own as could be very dangerous for starters, i would say that they are not as street wise as cats and need training where you do not TRAIN cats.


Yes dogs can be danger but dogs are also hunters so we could argue that they too are meant to be roaming the streets. The only reason why a dog no longer hunts is because we do not allow them to. The reason why cats still hunt is because we do allow them to. If dogs attack a cat or other animal, what do you call that if not hunting.


----------



## Sacrechat

RAINYBOW said:


> And i was making the point that maybe the fear is equally as misplaced
> 
> ((blimey its tetchy in here   ))


My experience has taught me differently so we will have to agree to disagree.


----------



## slavetorobbie

luvmydogs said:


> One of my neighbours kept complaining about a cat that went into his greenhouse and peed and pood. One day he caught it and killed it with a hammer. He buried it and the owners will never have known where it went. I didn't know who the owner was but reported him to the RSPCA. They didn't even question him.


Oh my god. That's horrendous. What a scumbag  Poor kitty, thinking of the fear and pain it must have experienced has brought tears to my eyes.


----------



## Sacrechat

Myanimalmadhouse said:


> Oh thank goodness I was starting to wonder if I was actually making sense or if it only made sense in my head :blink:


Trust me its all in your head. Amethysts post was meant for me not you. Once again you have taken something out of context.


----------



## luvmydogs

I do believe cats should be kept in as dogs are. If you want to own a cat and feel it should get outside, build a huge cat run. If you can't, don't get a cat. 
Here on our compound, dogs are not allowed off lead and must be picked up after. However there are cats everywhere. We get notices about picking up after dogs when it is very obviously cat poo that people are seeing. It makes me mad and as my last post shows, it makes some horrible people mad enough to kill the cat. There are too many reasons why cats should be kept in for their own safety. Like I said, my dog would have loved to be outdoors roaming, but no-one would agree with me letting him.


----------



## RAINYBOW

Sacremist said:


> It's clearly not you trying to tell us that our cats should be allowed to roam, but others I have already mentioned are intent on trying to twist what we say because they want an argument. Plus others making snide remarks and when we respond in kind, we are pulled up for it because the mods on their side.


Fair enough but i am not part of "that" and merely popped in here for a debate because i do think this is an interesting subject and as someone who has had a cat killed but would still have an outdoor cat i think i have something to add but i am really not interested in any "im a better owner because i let my cat out blah blah blahness 



Amethyst said:


> Roads are so much busier than 20 years ago! And while roads of all description have always been a danger, with the incredible increase of cars on the roads comes more cats killed ... My niece works for the local council and she says it's awful the number of calls they get to request cats killed on roads picked up :frown2:
> 
> She had a very distressed lady call recently looking for her cat and it turned out it was at local depot where deceased cats are taken, my niece said she was really upset as lady wanted to identify cat but it was in a very bad way and guy at depot said best not to see it ...


Is it really that many more than say 20 years ago though ? I wouldn't imagine there are stats available for it 

Again i make the point i made earlier that where i lived would have a bearing on wether i owned an outdoor cat. Leaving Oscar out of it though if i lived in what i considered to be an inappropriate area i would still have a cat but it would have to be either a breed that was suited to being indoors or an older cat whose just needed a comfy sofa and a bit of love (tbh thats the ones i have a soft spot for anyway )

However even though i lost Billy tragically where i live now i do think that was a freak incident because i dont live in a bad area and i would have an outdoor cat here without question. I live right on a country park, it's outdoor cat heaven 

(I miss having a cat :cryin: This topic is just making it worse :cryin


----------



## Sacrechat

Amethyst said:


> IN MY OPINION cats are definitely at more risk on the roads than they were and I have heard of more attacks on cats by dogs in recent years ... Guess cats have ALWAYS been cruelly treated and persecuted by some people ... I have heard of several cases of cat poisonings and I think most places has spells of cats going missing in large numbers from time to time
> 
> If i had an outdoor cat, to be honest it would be the roads that would worry me and people with airguns ... mainly because of what I have seen


My sister's cat was shot with an airgun. We had a cat crawl home after have been split up the stomach with a knife. Vet said it had to have been a knife done deliberately because the cut was too clean to be anything else.


----------



## Myanimalmadhouse

Sacremist said:


> Trust me its all in your head. Amethysts post was meant for me not you. Once again you have taken something out of context.


ok its all in me head!

my opinion:- indoor cats are good, outdoor cats are good as long as each and every one is loved and looked after.

We let cats roam as they are not a danger to humans
We dont let dogs roam as they CAN be a danger to humans.

enough said make your own minds up


----------



## Amethyst

luvmydogs said:


> One of my neighbours kept complaining about a cat that went into his greenhouse and peed and pood. One day he caught it and killed it with a hammer. He buried it and the owners will never have known where it went. I didn't know who the owner was but reported him to the RSPCA. They didn't even question him.


It happens, many people with gardens detest cats, I think things like this have always gone on in varying guises ... I wonder if that is why cats are often shot with airguns ... or perhaps it's just sick target practice


----------



## Amethyst

Sacremist said:


> My sister's cat was shot with an airgun. We had a cat crawl home after have been split up the stomach with a knife. Vet said it had to have been a knife done deliberately because the cut was too clean to be anything else.


Horrible, there are so many things happen, some best not posted here to be honest


----------



## Sacrechat

Shayden said:


> so 1 dog out of how many? and like you said... this was when you were a child.... dont you think things have changed


Yes, of course things have changed but your question was whether or not a dog would return home as a cat does and I showed you an example of that happening. I'm sure not all dogs would return home but then not all cats do either, so what's your point?


----------



## Houseofpets

As an owner of both cats and dogs my reasons for letting the cats roam freely and not allowing my dogs is that dogs are pack animals and if you were to have several individual dogs meeting up they will form a large group and have the potantial to become very violent to everyone and everything they meet.

My cats as I am sure they all are, don't like to have another cat in their territory and will fight to remove the threat, I have never heard of a 'pack' of cats attacking someone but have heard of dogs. 

My cats were kept in until they were a year old and neutered and this seems to have kept them fairly close to the house, they really don't go very far at all.


----------



## Sacrechat

Amethyst said:


> Well really interesting reading
> 
> One other thing that has not been mentioned is the concern of cats going missing and never knowing what happened to them, again I appreciate it's a risk many cat owners are willing to take and that is their choice.
> 
> I would imagine those in favour of allowing cats to roam (and I used to be one of them) have never lost a cat to a road traffic accident or had their cat shot or poisoned ... and hopefully they never will! But I do wonder if that would influence thier thoughts on this?


It has certainly influenced mine Amethyst.:001_smile:


----------



## Jenny1966

Myanimalmadhouse said:


> ok its all in me head!
> 
> *my opinion:- indoor cats are good, outdoor cats are good as long as each and every one is loved and looked after.
> 
> We let cats roam as they are not a danger to humans
> We dont let dogs roam as they CAN be a danger to humans.*
> 
> enough said make your own minds up


I agree 100%


----------



## luvmydogs

Sacremist said:


> Yes, of course things have changed but your question was whether or not a dog would return home as a cat does and I showed you an example of that happening. I'm sure not all dogs would return home but then not all cats do either, so what's your point?


When I was young we let the dog on on a morning, and we didn't see him again until it was his dinner time, He was always on time lol. Everyone I knew did that.


----------



## Sacrechat

RAINYBOW said:


> Errrr excuse me i said *I* wouldn't, which is my personal choice because i have only ever owned outdoor cats that would have gone mental indoors and i also clarified my point in my reply to Aurelia.
> 
> Please don't call my opinion ridiculous thats really rude


Yes, but I had not reached that far down the thread when I wrote this and your statement was ridiculous in my opinion, it's not rude, just my opinion.


----------



## Sacrechat

Myanimalmadhouse said:


> Sorry I shall keep my shut from now on but I think you'll find its not just me that reads it like that ---- *sits back and will read quietly before eastenders starts*


Then clearly there is more than one of you who chooses to misread what is said.


----------



## RAINYBOW

luvmydogs said:


> When I was young we let the dog on on a morning, and we didn't see him again until it was his dinner time, He was always on time lol. Everyone I knew did that.


It was very common.

Its like the whole "licence" thing isnt it. If you ran a dog over you had to report it because it was licenced but a cat you never had to 

There was an issue with packs in those days too. I was too young to remember why it all stopped but i wonder if the Local Authorities clamped down on it.


----------



## Guest

luvmydogs said:


> One of my neighbours kept complaining about a cat that went into his greenhouse and peed and pood. One day he caught it and killed it with a hammer. He buried it and the owners will never have known where it went. I didn't know who the owner was but reported him to the RSPCA. They didn't even question him.


OMG!! What an Evil B*******

That is not a human being at all!!


----------



## luvmydogs

Houseofpets said:


> As an owner of both cats and dogs my reasons for letting the cats roam freely and not allowing my dogs is that dogs are pack animals and if you were to have several individual dogs meeting up they will form a large group and have the potantial to become very violent to everyone and everything they meet.
> 
> My cats as I am sure they all are, don't like to have another cat in their territory and will fight to remove the threat, I have never heard of a 'pack' of cats attacking someone but have heard of dogs.
> 
> My cats were kept in until they were a year old and neutered and this seems to have kept them fairly close to the house, they really don't go very far at all.


Eh? When I was a kid, dogs roamed the streets all the time and were very 'streetwise'. They didn't form packs and attack us!!! Most had fantastic temperaments due to being let out from an early age and meeting lots of different people and dogs.


----------



## Ren

Amethyst I am curious to know with your experience in cat rescues what your view is on most shelters policy of not rehoming cats to indoor homes? If you agree as I do that cats should NOT be allowed to free roam outside then do you think these antiquated policies should change? My local CPL has a strict no indoor homes policy, which I find very sad.


----------



## Amethyst

KathrynH said:


> OMG!! What an Evil B*******
> 
> That is not a human being at all!!


I think cats seem to provoke feelings of either EXTREME love or hate and I have even heard some people refer to cats as vermin, especially the ferals


----------



## Guest

Well are we going to have a head count then!
Who lets their pussys walk the the streets
And 
Who keeps their pussys under lock and key


----------



## Houseofpets

luvmydogs said:


> Eh? When I was a kid, dogs roamed the streets all the time and were very 'streetwise'. They didn't form packs and attack us!!! Most had fantastic temperaments due to being let out from an early age and meeting lots of different people and dogs.


I didn't actually say they would but they have the potential to where as cats don't -that was merely the point I was trying to make


----------



## noushka05

Amethyst said:


> Have you a link to any of this info, I know I've read of this before. I can remember when we were young one of my cats was a great bird killer, we just accepted things then


 tbh i find the flippant attitude of a lot of owners who allow their cats to roam rather shocking when they know that they'll be hunting birds and other wildlife unchecked

ive copied some facts and heres a few links about their impact on wildlife across the globe.

Despite the difficulties in showing the effect most predators have on their prey, cats are known to have serious impacts on small mammals and birds. Worldwide, cats may have been involved in the extinction of more bird species than any other cause, except habitat destruction. Cats are contributing to the endangerment of populations of birds such as Least Terns, Piping Plovers and Loggerhead Shrikes. In Florida, marsh rabbits in Key West have been threatened by predation from domestic cats. Cats introduced by people living on the barrier islands of Florida's coast have depleted several unique species of mice and woodrats to near extinction.

Because of their ability to overwhelm existing native species and natural ecosystem processes in environments in which they have been introduced, domestic cats are moreover classified as invasive species. Invasive species, particularly predators, together with habitat destruction, have been a major cause of declines and extinctions of native species throughout the world for the past few centuries (Clavero and García-Berthou 2005).
An analysis of the International Union for the Conservation of Nature (IUCN) database has shown that predation alone and in concert with other contributing factors is responsible for more than 80% of all documented vertebrate extinctions . Due largely to impacts resulting from its predation on other species,the domestic cat is listed by the IUCN as one of the 100 of the worlds worst invasive alien species".

http://www.abcbirds.org/abcprograms/policy/cats/pdf/impacts_of_free_ranging_domestic_cats.pdf
Cats and Wildlife...A Conservation Dilemma
Cat Predation - WSAVA 2008 Congress
Domestic Cat Predation on Wildlife


----------



## Guest

Sacremist said:


> Yes dogs can be danger but dogs are also hunters so we could argue that they too are meant to be roaming the streets. The only reason why a dog no longer hunts is because we do not allow them to. The reason why cats still hunt is because we do allow them to. If dogs attack a cat or other animal, what do you call that if not hunting.


It all depends on the animal that is being hunted i think, but i totally understand what you are saying and yes it is all hunting.

I personally feel that you have to do what YOU feel is right for your cat, if the cat wants to go out let it, it is cruel to keep it indoors if it WANTS to go out.

It depends what the cat is used too as well.


----------



## RAINYBOW

Sacremist said:


> Yes, but I had not reached that far down the thread when I wrote this and your statement was ridiculous in my opinion, it's not rude, just my opinion.


OK


----------



## Guest

RAINYBOW said:


> OK


Hey Rainybows! what ya up to! 
Didn't you you taking part in my head count!
You don't keep you pussy under lock and key do you???


----------



## Guest

Amethyst said:


> I think cats seem to provoke feelings of either EXTREME love or hate and I have even heard some people refer to cats as vermin, especially the ferals


Oh yes many people HATE cats with a passion, i cannot understand why at all!!!


----------



## Aurelia

RAINYBOW said:


> Fair enough but i am not part of "that" and merely popped in here for a debate because i do think this is an interesting subject and as someone who has had a cat killed but would still have an outdoor cat i think i have something to add but i am really not interested in any "im a better owner because i let my cat out blah blah blahness
> 
> *Is it really that many more than say 20 years ago though ? I wouldn't imagine there are stats available for it*
> 
> Again i make the point i made earlier that where i lived would have a bearing on wether i owned an outdoor cat. Leaving Oscar out of it though if i lived in what i considered to be an inappropriate area i would still have a cat but it would have to be either a breed that was suited to being indoors or an older cat whose just needed a comfy sofa and a bit of love (tbh thats the ones i have a soft spot for anyway )
> 
> However even though i lost Billy tragically where i live now i do think that was a freak incident because i dont live in a bad area and i would have an outdoor cat here without question. I live right on a country park, it's outdoor cat heaven
> 
> (I miss having a cat :cryin: This topic is just making it worse :cryin


Rainy, the numbers are quite shocking. I mentioned it earlier in another thread I think ...

A history of road safety - North Yorkshire Police

In the 60's there were 10 million cars on the road, today there are more than 35 million.


----------



## RAINYBOW

DoubleTrouble said:


> Hey Rainybows! what ya up to!
> Didn't you you taking part in my head count!
> You don't keep you pussy under lock and key do you???


I keep saying i don't have a pussy anymore :cryin:


----------



## Sacrechat

noushka05 said:


> tbh i find the flippant attitude of a lot of owners who allow their cats to roam rather shocking when they know that they'll be hunting birds and other wildlife unchecked
> 
> ive copied some facts and heres a few links about their impact on wildlife across the globe.
> 
> Despite the difficulties in showing the effect most predators have on their prey, cats are known to have serious impacts on small mammals and birds. Worldwide, cats may have been involved in the extinction of more bird species than any other cause, except habitat destruction. Cats are contributing to the endangerment of populations of birds such as Least Terns, Piping Plovers and Loggerhead Shrikes. In Florida, marsh rabbits in Key West have been threatened by predation from domestic cats. Cats introduced by people living on the barrier islands of Florida's coast have depleted several unique species of mice and woodrats to near extinction.
> 
> Because of their ability to overwhelm existing native species and natural ecosystem processes in environments in which they have been introduced, domestic cats are moreover classified as invasive species. Invasive species, particularly predators, together with habitat destruction, have been a major cause of declines and extinctions of native species throughout the world for the past few centuries (Clavero and García-Berthou 2005).
> An analysis of the International Union for the Conservation of Nature (IUCN) database has shown that predation alone and in concert with other contributing factors is responsible for more than 80% of all documented vertebrate extinctions . Due largely to impacts resulting from its predation on other species,the domestic cat is listed by the IUCN as one of the 100 of the worlds worst invasive alien species".
> 
> http://www.abcbirds.org/abcprograms/policy/cats/pdf/impacts_of_free_ranging_domestic_cats.pdf
> Cats and Wildlife...A Conservation Dilemma
> Cat Predation - WSAVA 2008 Congress
> Domestic Cat Predation on Wildlife


Yes, I have seen many a documentary on this, so in my opinion, this is just as good a reason to not allow cats to roam as the reason given for dogs not being allowed to roam. Dogs dangerous to people: cats dangerous to wildlife.


----------



## Sacrechat

KathrynH said:


> It all depends on the animal that is being hunted i think, but i totally understand what you are saying and yes it is all hunting.
> 
> I personally feel that you have to do what YOU feel is right for your cat, if the cat wants to go out let it, it is cruel to keep it indoors if it WANTS to go out.
> 
> It depends what the cat is used too as well.


Yes, I would agree with you. I said in an earlier post that if I thought for one minute that my cats were unhappy as indoor cats, I would let them roam. I have no evidence of this being the case.


----------



## Guest

Aurelia said:


> Rainy, the numbers are quite shocking. I mentioned it earlier in another thread I think ...
> 
> A history of road safety - North Yorkshire Police
> 
> In the 60's there were 10 million cars on the road, today there are more than 35 million.



Now what I need to know! 
is how many cats were there in the 60's

and how many are there today

And half the cars on the road don't count coz folk can't afford to put petrol in em!


----------



## Aurelia

Houseofpets said:


> As an owner of both cats and dogs my reasons for letting the cats roam freely and not allowing my dogs is that dogs are pack animals and if you were to have several individual dogs meeting up they will form a large group and have the potantial to become very violent to everyone and everything they meet.
> 
> My cats as I am sure they all are, don't like to have another cat in their territory and will fight to remove the threat, I have never heard of a 'pack' of cats attacking someone but have heard of dogs.
> 
> My cats were kept in until they were a year old and neutered and this seems to have kept them fairly close to the house, they really don't go very far at all.


You've never heard of feral cat colonies? OK so they are not a danger to humans violence wise, but they can carry some conditions and parasites that can make you very poorly!


----------



## Amethyst

Ren said:


> Amethyst I am curious to know with your experience in cat rescues what your view is on most shelters policy of not rehoming cats to indoor homes? If you agree as I do that cats should NOT be allowed to free roam outside then do you think these antiquated policies should change? My local CPL has a strict no indoor homes policy, which I find very sad.


I don't think any type of blanket policy is good. I think each home should be judged on it's own merit ... and matched with suitable cat ... in my experience many smaller rescues are more flexible ... but no doubt others will say to the contrary 

Ultimately each charity has to do what it thinks best and if we are not involved personally or donating financially ... not really best placed to say too much 

I don't really see how they think this way though, there will always be cats that actually LOVE to be stay at homes!


----------



## RAINYBOW

Aurelia said:


> Rainy, the numbers are quite shocking. I mentioned it earlier in another thread I think ...
> 
> A history of road safety - North Yorkshire Police
> 
> In the 60's there were 10 million cars on the road, today there are more than 35 million.


Oh i now there are loads more cars hun which is why i said earlier i wouldnt let a cat out near a fast road but my opinion on that is the same as it has always been which is why we bought this house and not the one down the road that backed onto the main high street  Those sort of roads have been fast and busy though to a degree for decades so i wonder how much more of a risk they are now. Generally cats can negotiate slower side roads unless they are spooked into the path of a car


----------



## Aurelia

Ren said:


> Amethyst I am curious to know with your experience in cat rescues what your view is on most shelters policy of not rehoming cats to indoor homes? If you agree as I do that cats should NOT be allowed to free roam outside then do you think these antiquated policies should change? My local CPL has a strict no indoor homes policy, which I find very sad.


Ren, please report that to CP HQ. It is not CP policy  Hopefully they will do something to change it if they know about it.


----------



## Amethyst

noushka05 said:


> tbh i find the flippant attitude of a lot of owners who allow their cats to roam rather shocking when they know that they'll be hunting birds and other wildlife unchecked
> 
> ive copied some facts and heres a few links about their impact on wildlife across the globe.
> 
> Despite the difficulties in showing the effect most predators have on their prey, cats are known to have serious impacts on small mammals and birds. Worldwide, cats may have been involved in the extinction of more bird species than any other cause, except habitat destruction. Cats are contributing to the endangerment of populations of birds such as Least Terns, Piping Plovers and Loggerhead Shrikes. In Florida, marsh rabbits in Key West have been threatened by predation from domestic cats. Cats introduced by people living on the barrier islands of Florida's coast have depleted several unique species of mice and woodrats to near extinction.
> 
> Because of their ability to overwhelm existing native species and natural ecosystem processes in environments in which they have been introduced, domestic cats are moreover classified as invasive species. Invasive species, particularly predators, together with habitat destruction, have been a major cause of declines and extinctions of native species throughout the world for the past few centuries (Clavero and García-Berthou 2005).
> An analysis of the International Union for the Conservation of Nature (IUCN) database has shown that predation alone and in concert with other contributing factors is responsible for more than 80% of all documented vertebrate extinctions . Due largely to impacts resulting from its predation on other species,the domestic cat is listed by the IUCN as one of the 100 of the worlds worst invasive alien species".
> 
> http://www.abcbirds.org/abcprograms/policy/cats/pdf/impacts_of_free_ranging_domestic_cats.pdf
> Cats and Wildlife...A Conservation Dilemma
> Cat Predation - WSAVA 2008 Congress
> Domestic Cat Predation on Wildlife


Thank you.


----------



## RAINYBOW

Amethyst said:


> I don't think any type of blanket policy is good. I think each home should be judged on it's own merit ... and matched with suitable cat ... in my experience many smaller rescues are more flexible ... but no doubt others will say to the contrary
> 
> Ultimately each charity has to do what it thinks best and if we are not involved personally or donating financially ... not really best placed to say too much
> 
> I don't really see how they think this way though, there will always be cats that actually LOVE to be stay at homes!


I agree with this. There are always lots of really pretty ancient cats at Wood Green when i go (they are always the ones i want to bring home but sadly the ones who would enjoy our busy household and grumpy spaniel the least ) I can't believe that they wouldnt be better off in a home for their last few years rather than a pen


----------



## Amethyst

RAINYBOW said:


> I agree with this. There are always lots of really pretty ancient cats at Wood Green when i go (they are always the ones i want to bring home but sadly the ones who would enjoy our busy household and grumpy spaniel the least ) I can't believe that they wouldnt be better off in a home for their last few years rather than a pen


I know sometimes the ones we would love to take home just aren't right for the home we can offer 

If I have got confuddled over your posts I apologise, will read through them tomorrow


----------



## Ren

Aurelia said:


> Ren, please report that to CP HQ. It is not CP policy  Hopefully they will do something to change it if they know about it.


I'm sure they would probably say that they did look at each case individually but I know for a fact that the only cats they deem suitable for indoor homes are those that are FeLV/FIV positive


----------



## noushka05

Sacremist said:


> Yes, I have seen many a documentary on this, so in my opinion, this is just as good a reason to not allow cats to roam as the reason given for dogs not being allowed to roam. Dogs dangerous to people: cats dangerous to wildlife.


agreed! there are over 10 million cats in the UK far far more of then than say our native foxes, it dosent take a genius to imagine the damage they are doing to our wildlife does it, i just wish more people would take responsibilty for their cats if for no other reason than this.


----------



## lulubel

KathrynH said:


> I personally feel that you have to do what YOU feel is right for your cat, if the cat wants to go out let it, it is cruel to keep it indoors if it WANTS to go out.


I totally agree.

Sam wants to go out every day, so we put his harness on and take him out. Fortunately, he doesn't like the cold or the rain very much, so he tends not to stay out very long when the weather's bad!


----------



## Aurelia

RAINYBOW said:


> Oh i now there are loads more cars hun which is why i said earlier i wouldnt let a cat out near a fast road but my opinion on that is the same as it has always been which is why we bought this house and not the one down the road that backed onto the main high street  Those sort of roads have been fast and busy though to a degree for decades so i wonder how much more of a risk they are now. Generally cats can negotiate slower side roads unless they are spooked into the path of a car


Rainy IMO no roads are safe. I mentioned early (can't remember if it was this thread or the other one now) I used to live down a country lane which was a dead end at one end. I still lost several cats to the road. I also know of other peoples cats that were killed on the roads around there.

I used to work for a local ganger (supplies factory workers before anyone with a naughty mind thinks otherwise (DT)) and I had to wait for the van every morning at about 5am. I can tell you that I saw many cats on the road that had obviously been squashed through the night. I would say probably 1 or two per month. It was horrible  That was in a quiet village too.

Like I also said earlier ... what I can't figure out is why we lost so many to the road (and other dangers) yet my next door neighbours cat died of old age at 19!


----------



## Mollie M

*Hello. 

I haven't read the full extent of this thread being as I'm new, and it's a very long topic.

The reason why cats are allowed to roam goes back in history to when cats were viewed upon as the familiars of witches and nobody dared to question that. There was a fear of them in that anyone who crossed a cat would meet a fate worse than death. :smile:

As a keeper of cats for more than 50 years eek it's been my experience that cats are natural hunters and need to exercise that need to seek out prey. None of us like them catching birds or any other creatures and for the most part, any such victims have been saved, including birds, worms, mice, voles, and even frogs! 

Cats were also deified by the ancient Egyptians and were worshipped as idols.

Never think for a moment though that a cat is not dangerous to humans. I can assure you, they can be, but that's another story. 

If I yap too much, just let me know. *


----------



## RAINYBOW

Amethyst said:


> I know sometimes the ones we would love to take home just aren't right for the home we can offer
> 
> If I have got confuddled over your posts I apologise, will read through them tomorrow


I dont think you have, it's a debate  Each person takes a view, exchanges and learns. I think we have both done that here  Like i said i find this subject interesting and have changed my viewpoint through debating it to a degree which is all good 

I think i came in a bit late after it had been a bit tetchy and got caught up in a bit of that  Was just trying to make it clear i don't have any "agenda" just an opinion


----------



## Aurelia

Ren said:


> I'm sure they would probably say that they did look at each case individually but I know for a fact that the only cats they deem suitable for indoor homes are those that are FeLV/FIV positive


Ren, honestly ... I had a few chats with them at CP HQ. It is most definately not their policy at all. They do discourage that sort of policy too ... if they know about it going on  There is only one way they will know, and that is if people report them to HQ.


----------



## noushka05

in sure my huskies and my rodents would love to roam free so i do all i can to enrich their lives whilst keeping them safe and secure and where the sibes are concerned keeping wildlife safe...ish


----------



## Gem16

It's really weird when people have one cat that has been run over, they usually have others it happens to aswell. Yet people on the same road may never ever have a cat hit by a car. 
My aunt had 4 cats hit by cars down the same road  yet her neighbor had 6 cats and in the 18 years they lived there not 1 of them was knocked down.


----------



## Houseofpets

Aurelia said:


> You've never heard of feral cat colonies? OK so they are not a danger to humans violence wise, but they can carry some conditions and parasites that can make you very poorly!


Yes I have heard of them but then that can be said about other animals - *rats* (Weils disease, Tuberculosis, Salmonella), *mice* (Salmonella, Lyme disease), *birds* (Histoplasmosis, Candidiasis, Cryptococcosis) - wasn't really about the disease I was making the point about?


----------



## Guest

RAINYBOW said:


> I dont think you have, it's a debate  Each person takes a view, exchanges and learns. I think we have both done that here  Like i said i find this subject interesting and have changed my viewpoint through debating it to a degree which is all good
> 
> I think i came in a bit late after it had been a bit tetchy and got caught up in a bit of that  Was just trying to make it clear i don't have any "agenda" just an opinion


Good job they caught you in a good mood eh rainbows!
Don't fancy mopping up blood tonight"


----------



## Ren

Aurelia said:


> Ren, honestly ... I had a few chats with them at CP HQ. It is most definately not their policy at all. They do discourage that sort of policy too ... if they know about it going on  There is only one way they will know, and that is if people report them to HQ.


Thanks, I will


----------



## Cleo38

I've had both indoor & outdoor cats. My two at the moment are now venturing in to the garden but don't roam far - the dogs don't let them  They don't actually seem that bothered though & go out for the occasional sunbathe & that's it.

One of my old cats (he simply wandered in one day & never left) would have hated being an indoor cat, he used to vist several of my neighbours, the local pub, shop, etc & loved being outside getting lots of attention. Maybe if I'd have had him from a kitten then things would have been different but to deny him access to outside simply because it was safer was not really in his best interests.

As far as being a threat to wildlife there are numerous studies regarding this & I've read contradictory reports. As for my own animals then my dogs have killed more wildlife than the cats when running around off the lead. It's not something I'm happy & in certain areas (nesting birds on the river bank, nature reserves, etc) then they are kept leashed but as we live in the countryside there are plenty of moles, pheasant, rabbits, hares, etc for them to chase & at times they have caught one of them. I'm not prepared to keep them on a lead on every single walk though as I don't think it's fair to them - some people may disagree but it's not as if these animals are rare species although I do try to minimise it as best I can


----------



## gladass

Amethyst said:


> As being discussed ... why do some people think it okay to allow their cats wander, while (quite rightly) they would not allow their dogs to do the same?


Each to their own re indoor/outdoor debate re cats but imo maybe dogs do not get to wander as dog wardens are quick off the mark to catch dogs and take them straight to pound imo.
I had a dog recently who got out a gate that had been left open I looked for her for hours, decided to make a poster etc.. then took myself down to local SSPCA centre to leave a poster with them. Low and behold my girlie was in one of their kennels and it cost me a whopping £74 to get her back.
Microchipped she was too


----------



## suzy93074

My cat is indoor/outdoor If I could rewind time to him being young and not having known the outside then yes I would probably think about it a lot harder than I initially did! I worry every time he goes out ......but as an outdoor cat I do try and limit the risks ie getting netuered, having a set time he now comes in for ie not allowed out in the late night and mainly where I live there are no main roads! I do see that safety wise there are lots of cons for letting them out but then I get that niggly feeling of not letting them be their natural self - its personal choice really as long as you have weighed up the risks and miniminsed as much as possible


----------



## RAINYBOW

Aurelia said:


> Rainy IMO no roads are safe. I mentioned early (can't remember if it was this thread or the other one now) I used to live down a country lane which was a dead end at one end. I still lost several cats to the road. I also know of other peoples cats that were killed on the roads around there.
> 
> I used to work for a local ganger (supplies factory workers before anyone with a naughty mind thinks otherwise (DT)) and I had to wait for the van every morning at about 5am. I can tell you that I saw many cats on the road that had obviously been squashed through the night. I would say probably 1 or two per month. It was horrible  That was in a quiet village too.
> 
> Like I also said earlier ... what I can't figure out is why we lost so many to the road (and other dangers) yet my next door neighbours cat died of old age at 19!


Country roads have always been bad, hubby lost their old cat to a very quiet but fast country lane 

To be honest Billy was our only cat that didnt die of illness or old age but again i would say we have always really lived in "safe" environments. Having said that we did live on a High Street but Billy never went out the front as there was too much fun over the back, he did however used to "hang out" in the village car park  My biggest fear with him was he was nosey and i worried he would get in a car or van and they would drive off with him 

Yes bad stuff can happen but is that not the same for children yet we wouldnt dream of keeping them in the house all their lives "incase" something bad happened. Like i said thats just how i view it i suppose


----------



## Sacrechat

Gem16 said:


> It's really weird when people have one cat that has been run over, they usually have others it happens to aswell. Yet people on the same road may never ever have a cat hit by a car.
> My aunt had 4 cats hit by cars down the same road  yet her neighbor had 6 cats and in the 18 years they lived there not 1 of them was knocked down.


I've had two cats run over and two disappear. One died of acute kidney failure and a possible cause was drinking anti-freeze. Plus as I have mentioned, my sister's cat was shot with pellets and one of ours stabbed.


----------



## RAINYBOW

DoubleTrouble said:


> Good job they caught you in a good mood eh rainbows!
> Don't fancy mopping up blood tonight"


You appear to have mistaken me for Attila the Hun


----------



## Guest

RAINYBOW said:


> Yes bad stuff can happen but is that not the same for children yet we wouldnt dream of keeping them in the house all their lives "incase" something bad happened. Like i said thats just how i view it i suppose


Now there's an idea! perhaps we should push for children to be kept indoors! until the are 18 maybe! how does that sound guys?


----------



## Sacrechat

RAINYBOW said:


> Country roads have always been bad, hubby lost their old cat to a very quiet but fast country lane
> 
> To be honest Billy was our only cat that didnt die of illness or old age but again i would say we have always really lived in "safe" environments. Having said that we did live on a High Street but Billy never went out the front as there was too much fun over the back, he did however used to "hang out" in the village car park  My biggest fear with him was he was nosey and i worried he would get in a car or van and they would drive off with him
> 
> Yes bad stuff can happen but is that not the same for children yet we wouldnt dream of keeping them in the house all their lives "incase" something bad happened. Like i said thats just how i view it i suppose


I know parents who will not let their children play outside unless they, the parent, is sat outside watching them.


----------



## Ren

RAINYBOW said:


> Country roads have always been bad, hubby lost their old cat to a very quiet but fast country lane
> 
> To be honest Billy was our only cat that didnt die of illness or old age but again i would say we have always really lived in "safe" environments. Having said that we did live on a High Street but Billy never went out the front as there was too much fun over the back, he did however used to "hang out" in the village car park  My biggest fear with him was he was nosey and i worried he would get in a car or van and they would drive off with him
> 
> *Yes bad stuff can happen but is that not the same for children yet we wouldnt dream of keeping them in the house all their lives "incase" something bad happened. Like i said thats just how i view it i suppose *


Yes but we can educate children on the dangers, we cannot educate our cats to steer clear of man-made hazards. :nono:


----------



## Guest

Sacremist said:


> I know parents who will not let their children play outside unless they, the parent, is sat outside watching them.


I know wives who won't let their hubbies go out unnattended either! but thats another thread!


----------



## suzy93074

Sacremist said:


> I know parents who will not let their children play outside unless they, the parent, is sat outside watching them.


OMG that reminded me of my neighbour where I used to live as a child -it was a cul-de-sac so all the kids used to play at the top and most mums mine included would say stay at the top where we can see you but the neighbours little boy was only allowed on his drive and used to just stand and watch us he never got to interact with any of the other kids and play and grew up to be a very withdrawn child ......sometimes over protective is not always protecting imo same could be said for some pets


----------



## Sacrechat

DoubleTrouble said:


> I know wives who won't let their hubbies go out unnattended either! but thats another thread!


And I can understand why they don't. :tongue_smilie:


----------



## gladass

DoubleTrouble said:


> I know wives who won't let their hubbies go out unnattended either! but thats another thread!


 I can imagine ya typing right now and heading to General


----------



## Guest

suzy93074 said:


> OMG that reminded me of my neighbour where I used to live as a child -it was a cul-de-sac so all the kids used to play at the top and most mums mine included would say stay at the top where we can see you but the neighbours little boy was only allowed on his drive and used to just stand and watch us he never got to interact with any of the other kids and play and grew up to be a very withdrawn child ......sometimes over protective is not always protecting imo same could be said for some pets


Yep I remember him too! weren't his name peter sutcliffe?


----------



## RAINYBOW

Sacremist said:


> I know parents who will not let their children play outside unless they, the parent, is sat outside watching them.


Til what age 10...15.....25 ??? 



Ren said:


> Yes but we can educate children on the dangers, we cannot educate our cats to steer clear of man-made hazards. :nono:


That is true but you can teach kids all you like but that won't make then totally safe. Kids get killed on roads, kids get attacked, kid go to places they shouldn't and do stupid stuff, it's still a risk a parent takes letting them out on their own.


----------



## Guest

gladass said:


> I can imagine ya typing right now and heading to General


Nope! too much fun here


----------



## noushka05

Ren said:


> Yes but we can educate children on the dangers, we cannot educate our cats to steer clear of man-made hazards. :nono:


exactly!.... and you'd never allow a child out who was too young to understand those dangers...unless you were totally irresponsible that is.


----------



## Sacrechat

suzy93074 said:


> OMG that reminded me of my neighbour where I used to live as a child -it was a cul-de-sac so all the kids used to play at the top and most mums mine included would say stay at the top where we can see you but the neighbours little boy was only allowed on his drive and used to just stand and watch us he never got to interact with any of the other kids and play and grew up to be a very withdrawn child ......sometimes over protective is not always protecting imo same could be said for some pets


But my cats are not withdrawn and unhappy. They are feisty playful little buggers. I would challenge anyone who met them to defy what I say. I once had a client come round to my home and she was adamant that cats should be allowed outdoors. She saw my cats and whilst not knowing I kept them indoors commented on how happy and playful they were. When I told her they were indoor only she was astounded and said, "Well, I eat my words!" And so she should because my cats are proof positive that keeping cats indoors is not detrimental to their happiness.


----------



## suzy93074

DoubleTrouble said:


> Yep I remember him too! weren't his name peter sutcliffe?


fookin ell hope not!!! I do know he ended up not being very good socially though! very shy and very nervy!


----------



## Sacrechat

RAINYBOW said:


> Til what age 10...15.....25 ???


As far as I'm aware, they are still doing it and the eldest is about 11. The kids seem very happy and well adjusted to me. The youngest is a bit of a gobby bugger, but happy enough.:tongue_smilie:


----------



## suzy93074

Sacremist said:


> But my cats are not withdrawn and unhappy. They are feisty playful little buggers. I would challenge anyone who met them to defy what I say. I once had a client come round to my home and she was adamant that cats should be allowed outdoors. She saw my cats and whilst not knowing I kept them indoors commented on how happy and playful they were. When I told her they were indoor only she was astounded and said, "Well, I eat my words!" And so she should because my cats are proof positive that keeping cats indoors is not detrimental to their happiness.


Oh Im in no way doubting your cats are happy- I have never thought that about indoor cats - but its more difficult once your cat has had that taste of the outdoors ....then imo it does become a question of what is best for the cat because they do miss it if they have it taken away and I could not do that now with my cat.


----------



## Ren

noushka05 said:


> exactly!.... and you'd never allow a child out who was too young to understand those dangers...unless you were totally irresponsible that is.


Exactly! Yet people take these risks with their cats! I was round at my mums a couple of months ago and this gorgeous little cat came into the garden and then I noticed not only was it tiny but it was a kitten. I said 'That kitten only looks about thirteen weeks old!' And my mum said that's how old it is, it lives over the back. I couldn't believe it! Kazuki didn't even come _home_ until 13 weeks I can't imagine letting a kitten out at that age. It took all my willpower not to just scoop it up and take it home with me right there.


----------



## suzy93074

Sacremist said:


> As far as I'm aware, they are still doing it and the eldest is about 11. The kids seem very happy and well adjusted to me. The youngest is a bit of a gobby bugger, but happy enough.:tongue_smilie:


The parents stay outside with them ??? as in goes wherever they are playing??:blink:


----------



## Sacrechat

suzy93074 said:


> fookin ell hope not!!! I do know he ended up not being very good socially though! very shy and very nervy!


He would have been that way anyway, after all, would he not have had contact with other kids in school? Or are you saying the child was educated at home as well. It is not just at home kids learn how to socialise but in schools and through clubs. The boy, unless totally isolated from every child in every circumstance, had to have had some opportunity to learn how to socialise. The fact that he wasn't has nothing to do with what his parent's did; this would have been his personality anyway. Maybe the reason why he stood at the end of the drive watching is because he was of a nervous disposition anyway.


----------



## Guest

Each to their own! And I for one have no problem with that! I know many people who do keep their cats in, and I know equally as many who let theirs out! I am of the later, mine do go out! Smoke lived to be twenty! Billy - my current cat is seventeen and I would not keep him in, That said he is ALWAYS in a night and should he ever become either blind or deaf he will be kept in too! But untill that time come he will be allowed out if he wishes to do so!

I think people have to be sensible, if they live in a bad area, near a busy road or have a young kitten etc etc etc then you keep them in!

I shall not be changing my ways based on what anyone says on this thread - when and if the time does come to keep him in then that will be my decision based on what I consider to be best for my cat!

Thats it!
Me's done on here!
off to strike up the cauldren!

DT


----------



## Sacrechat

suzy93074 said:


> Oh Im in no way doubting your cats are happy- I have never thought that about indoor cats - but its more difficult once your cat has had that taste of the outdoors ....then imo it does become a question of what is best for the cat because they do miss it if they have it taken away and I could not do that now with my cat.


Yes, I would agree but none of my current cats have ever been outdoor cats. Yes, they sit in the window chirruping at the birds but then so did two cats I had when first married and they were outdoor cats. They didn't have the sense to go through the catflap to get the birds, they just sat and chirruped at them.


----------



## Sacrechat

suzy93074 said:


> The parents stay outside with them ??? as in goes wherever they are playing??:blink:


As far as I am aware, yes, that is what they have told me: the parent's that is.


----------



## suzy93074

Sacremist said:


> He would have been that way anyway, after all, would he not have had contact with other kids in school? Or are you saying the child was educated at home as well. It is not just at home kids learn how to socialise but in schools and through clubs. The boy, unless totally isolated from every child in every circumstance, had to have had some opportunity to learn how to socialise. The fact that he wasn't has nothing to do with what his parent's did; this would have been his personality anyway. Maybe the reason why he stood at the end of the drive watching is because he was of a nervous disposition anyway.


He was younger than a lot of us - but yes I think he went to infants school at that time .....I think he did get picked on a lot cos he was a loaner .....of course some of it could have been his personality but I do think the way his parents mollycoddled him did have a huge effect on him - he had to play on his own most of the time unless we were invited to come and play on his drive which got boring after a while .......so yes I think it did massively affect how he interacted with kids - from a baby to toddler he didnt interact with kids on a regular basis a key time to learn social skills


----------



## Sacrechat

DoubleTrouble said:


> Each to their own! And I for one have no problem with that! I know many people who do keep their cats in, and I know equally as many who let theirs out! I am of the later, mine do go out! Smoke lived to be twenty! Billy - my current cat is seventeen and I would not keep him in, That said he is ALWAYS in a night and should he ever become either blind or deaf he will be kept in too! But untill that time come he will be allowed out if he wishes to do so!
> 
> I think people have to be sensible, if they live in a bad area, near a busy road or have a young kitten etc etc etc then you keep them in!
> 
> I shall not be changing my ways based on what anyone says on this thread - when and if the time does come to keep him in then that will be my decision based on what I consider to be best for my cat!
> 
> Thats it!
> Me's done on here!
> off to strike up the cauldren!
> 
> DT


And on that I agree with you. No-one has tried to say what other people should do, certainly not me. Only those who have misread posts seem to be of that mind, but that's their problem.


----------



## noushka05

Ren said:


> Exactly! Yet people take these risks with their cats! I was round at my mums a couple of months ago and this gorgeous little cat came into the garden and then I noticed not only was it tiny but it was a kitten. I said 'That kitten only looks about thirteen weeks old!' And my mum said that's how old it is, it lives over the back. I couldn't believe it! Kazuki didn't even come _home_ until 13 weeks I can't imagine letting a kitten out at that age. It took all my willpower not to just scoop it up and take it home with me right there.


blimey poor little mite how irresponsible! ive seen a fair few kittens roaming in my time aswell, how on earth do folk rest when they let them out i worry for them and theyre not even mine


----------



## chellemich

Amethyst said:


> I don't want to get accused of anything "norty" like deflecting form someones thread topic, so ...
> 
> As being discussed ... why do some people think it okay to allow their cats wander, while (quite rightly) they would not allow their dogs to do the same?
> 
> Any cats we have in the future will be indoor cats, but years ago our family cats came and went at will ... thankfully we had worked out how to neuter them though
> 
> Are we simply following old traditional thought if we let them roam? Do we allow it for thier convenience or ours?
> 
> Does acknowledging their "independence" mean we should sacrifice their safety?


I was discussing the exact same thing with a friend yesterday.


----------



## Ren

noushka05 said:


> blimey poor little mite how irresponsible! ive seen a fair few kittens roaming in my time aswell, how on earth do folk rest when they let them out i worry for them and theyre not even mine


I think it's a case of the 'it's only a cat' syndrome  Some people are just clueless and shouldn't be allowed pets full stop.


----------



## suzy93074

Sacremist said:


> Yes, I would agree but none of my current cats have ever been outdoor cats. Yes, they sit in the window chirruping at the birds but then so did two cats I had when first married and they were outdoor cats. They didn't have the sense to go through the catflap to get the birds, they just sat and chirruped at them.


mine loves looking out the window too  I think most cats do they are just bloody nosy lol  Like its been said its personal choice and whatever is right for the said person and their cat /s


----------



## Guest

Seriously!
I really have to go now! the cauldron needs stiring!
But just taken a picture of billy! who is settled for the night! and just turned the fire on for him!
Say nite nite to billy the cat!

AND! I do think that ALL cats should be in a night! even if it means you have to go look for them!
Mine doe honestly come in when we whistle him!


----------



## suzy93074

DoubleTrouble said:


> Seriously!
> I really have to go now! the cauldron needs stiring!
> But just taken a picture of billy! who is settled for the night! and just turned the fire on for him!
> Say nite nite to billy the cat!
> 
> AND! I do think that ALL cats should be in a night! even if it means you have to go look for them!
> Mine doe honestly come in when we whistle him!


He does look a bit like my Jinks!

And agreed mine is all snug in his bed for the night


----------



## gskinner123

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Of course we have responsibilities and duties to them but does that mean our responsibility is to decide that the cat is to be kept indoors is seen as being preferable over allowing it to roam free.
> 
> Like I mentioned should it not be up to the cat to decide?
> 
> As I said I can see both sides as have done both.
> 
> The kid comment was just to highlight how far does one go to protect those who we feel responsible for.


No, I honestly don't think it's up to the cat to decide any more than it's up to a three year old to decide to walk to the local shops on her own or eat a packet of tooty-fruties for breakfast. It's their guardians who, in my opinion, have a duty to make the choices for them. But as I already said, I have no criticism for those who allow their cats to be free ranging; it's personal choice even though it's something I choose not to do.


----------



## Guest

suzy93074 said:


> He does look a bit like my Jinks!


Assuming that is jinks in your signature Suzy, if so yep ! he does - but jinks has a little more black on him by the looks of it!


----------



## Guest

suzy93074 said:


> He does look a bit like my Jinks!
> 
> And agreed mine is all snug in his bed for the night


In his new bed?


----------



## suzy93074

DoubleTrouble said:


> Assuming that is jinks in your signature Suzy, if so yep ! he does - but jinks has a little more black on him by the looks of it!


Yep thats Jinks ...and yes slight difference in colour but pretty similar!


----------



## Guest

suzy93074 said:


> He does look a bit like my Jinks!
> 
> And agreed mine is all snug in his bed for the night


suzy! that white bed - it is a bed isn't it? look fantastic, what is it made of?


----------



## suzy93074

KathrynH said:


> In his new bed?


 no Kath unfortunately not! he is in his igloo bed but he has been in yours! he uses it in the boys bedroom xxx


----------



## Guest

suzy93074 said:


> no Kath unfortunately not! he is in his igloo bed but he has been in yours! he uses it in the boys bedroom xxx


ooohhh it is looking up.


----------



## suzy93074

DoubleTrouble said:


> suzy! that white bed - it is a bed isn't it? look fantastic, what is it made of?


LOL that made me giggle!! its a cloud DT!! Shetland took a picture of jinks and made a picture of him floating on a cloud


----------



## Guest

suzy93074 said:


> LOL that made me giggle!! its a cloud DT!! Shetland took a picture of jinks and made a picture of him floating on a cloud


I knew I should have gone to specsavers instead of boots!


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat

We used to let our old Border Collie Dutch out by herself and shed wonder around, sometimes went down the street or disappear for a few hours.

She got hit by a car once when we were sliding down the front drive way. She didnt stop at the end like we did and kept going and was hit by a pickup. I dont even think my parents took her to the vets 

I wouldnt let Sophie out cause she wouldnt last a day. And she is my new snuggle buddy.

I dont let my cats out because its just not safe, even in the city we have coyotes apparently one attacked a little dog here and ripped it to shreds 

But I want to build them an outdoor area pen in the future.


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

Sacremist said:


> That response was made to this statement by Cockerpoo Lover "If the cat is happy to roam as many have always done why is it your decision to put a stop to it?" It was not intended as a response arguing in favour of EVERYONE stopping their cats from roaming as you seem intent on believing. I do not like being told that I am wrong for stopping my cats from roaming anymore than someone who believes in allowing cats to roam wants to be told they are wrong. By asking 'why is it your decision to put a stop to it?" that is exactly what Cockerpoo lover is doing.
> 
> You, however, are intent on twisting what I say because you are clearly on some mission to start an argument.


The response I made was not to you though.

I have already said that if your cat is happy indoors then it's fine. (Given the opportunity to go out still though)

I'm talking more about stopping a cat from going out when he wants to or if he is unhappy being indoor cat.


----------



## gskinner123

Cockerpoo lover said:


> The response I made was not to you though.
> 
> I have already said that if your cat is happy indoors then it's fine. (Given the opportunity to go out still though)
> 
> I'm talking more about stopping a cat from going out when he wants to or if he is unhappy being indoor cat.


I'm sorry that I seem to be continually quoting you from this thread but I genuinely have a problem understanding what you're suggesting. We live rurally, farmland in front of and beind our home but we live on a very busy 'A' road which runs through our village. Of course if I left the door open the cats would *want* to go out, would go out and eventually make a bee line for the fields opposite. Are you seriously suggesting I allow them to try and dodge 60mph traffic just because they "want to go out" ?


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

RAINYBOW said:


> I agree with this. There are always lots of really pretty ancient cats at Wood Green when i go (they are always the ones i want to bring home but sadly the ones who would enjoy our busy household and grumpy spaniel the least ) I can't believe that they wouldnt be better off in a home for their last few years rather than a pen


Oh I go and see them there. I love that place.

My brother has two cats he privately adopted and he has said when they are no longer with him he would adopt an oldie. :001_smile:


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

gskinner123 said:


> I'm sorry that I seem to be continually quoting you from this thread but I genuinely have a problem understanding what you're suggesting. We live rurally, farmland in front of and beind our home but we live on a very busy 'A' road which runs through our village. Of course if I left the door open the cats would *want* to go out, would go out and eventually make a bee line for the fields opposite. Are you seriously suggesting I allow them to try and dodge 60mph traffic just because they "want to go out" ?


If you live near a busy road and have bought cats then your intention has always been to keep them in for safety reasons.

I'm sure when you were deciding on getting cats that you considered that rd and therefore the option of letting them out was a risk you didn't want to take.

Personally now I couldn't get a cat if I knew that it had to be kept in because of a busy rd or a dangerous area etc... ( thought differently years ago)

Years ago when I got my two they were both strays. One was from a lady who took them in and one had a litter. My brother took 2 kittens and I took the last one.

We had lots of discussion on it and I feel that I was selfish in some respects as I saw the kitten and wanted to give it a home.

But we lived in a flat ( Victorian house conversion) so knew I was going to be giving him a life indoors.
Then we got another kitten that basically a neighbour had moved and left her pregnant cat behind. The lady underneath me took mum and I took one of the kittens because she was finding it hard to find homes for them all.

We both felt guilty at times because we could see that they wanted to go out.

Yes they were loved and we gave all we could but they were lively boys and just wanted to be out. But not good in a flat and we had a busy rd like you near by.

One sadly died at 5  and the other was my very special boy who lived till nearly 16.

I moved when he was 14 and allowed him out.

Boy was I scared!!! but just felt it was right thing to do. Plus area more quiet and safe.

All he did was sit out in garden enjoying the breeze and I was so pleased that the last 2 years before he died he had the freedom to go out that I had denied him.

My cat now is another stray that adopted me. He comes and goes as he pleases and is a free spirit.

If you read my posts I have said all along I see both sides and have done both.

I don't see anything wrong in either if the cat is happy.

I just prefer them to have the option to go out that's all.

That's just my opinion and we are all different- like any of us it's usually formed by personal experiences.


----------



## Ren

This is getting out of hand and off topic.

Though to be honest I always assumed  was a big grin...


----------



## Sacrechat

Ren said:


> This is getting out of hand and off topic.
> 
> Though to be honest I always assumed  was a big grin...


That is not how I see it because it says 'talking' on the meaning.


----------



## canuckjill

Just got in am on page 11 wow this thread has been busy. Going to read it. 

But may I say I choose to let my cats out, but if I lived in certain Cities here, I would not alot depends on your local as well, and if I had breeding cats they would be inside or a cat run off my house....I think its personal choice and circumstances...


----------



## Ianthi

Sacremist said:


> That is not how I see it because it says *'talking' *on the meaning. Maybe it is off topic but I object to the word catty being freely thrown around whilst bitchy is out of bounds when they mean the same thing.


Where exactly? When I hover on the icon it says 'Big Grin' !


----------



## Sacrechat

Ianthi said:


> Where exactly? When I hover on the icon it says 'Big Grin' !


Then it's been changed because I've always avoided using that icon because I couldn't figure out why there would be an icon for talking.


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

Sacremist said:


> That is not how I see it because it says 'talking' on the meaning.
> 
> Wasn't going to post.
> 
> So I was right about the  meaning big grin then
> 
> Anyway can we now just leave it.


----------



## canuckjill

Well guess I'll delete the argument also. You two can take it to PM if you wish
It was I that deleted the 2 posts one from each, I happen to be a cat lover a and a dog lover .I may be not thinking here but I understood the first post as being a joke but I will remove that also. If it keeps up like this you can only blame yourselfs for it being closed....


----------



## Sacrechat

canuckjill said:


> Well guess I'll delete the argument also. You two can take it to PM if you wish
> It was I that deleted the 2 posts one from each, I happen to be a cat lover a and a dog lover.I may be not thinking here but I understood the first post as being a joke but I will remove that also. If it keeps up like this you can only blame yourselfs for it being closed....


As long as neither word is used and one is not given more derogatory meaning than the other, I'll be happy. I'll also be happy if that original post is removed because joke or not I found it offensive.


----------



## Ianthi

Sacremist said:


> Then it's been changed because I've always avoided using that icon because I couldn't figure out why there would be an icon for talking.


No, don't believe so. As long as I've been here it's always meant just that.


----------



## canuckjill

original post has been edited and I am trying to edit the others if they contain more than a one liner...


----------



## Sacrechat

Ianthi said:


> No, don't believe so. As long as I've been here it's always meant just that.


I must be confusing it with another one I've seen. I still don't like that other word though even when used in jest.


----------



## Sacrechat

canuckjill said:


> original post has been edited and I am trying to edit the others if they contain more than a one liner...


Thank you.


----------



## momentofmadness

Amethyst said:


> Why? Cats face similar, very similar risks that dogs do?
> 
> They get attacked by dogs, hit by cars, poisoned, abused by people. I have never come across a dog being shot, but several cats.


Why don't you ask the authorities this question and also ask why you don't have to report knocking a cat down but you do a dog!



Aurelia said:


> To be fair you can teach your kids to follow the green cross code and have some road sense. You can't teach your cats the same. This goes for every comparable danger.
> 
> Plus I don't think anyone lets their kids go out at will like they did in the 60's and 70's anymore. So in that respect it is completely different.


Actually it doesn't matter what you teach kids.. they still unexpectedly run in front of cars... And so do people.. And there are the cars that run into them..



Amethyst said:


> I had a battle worn rescue boy who despite having been shot loved to get out and about  I also had an adopted "street cat" that would not go out at all, I think he had too many bad memories
> 
> My sis has a cat that was allowed out for the first few years of his life in previous home, now he won't go past his front step!
> 
> In my experience, it's surprising how many cats that have spent time roaming do settle to an indoor life ... by choice sometimes ... but not all.


Sometimes I think this is through fear.. 
If you have a cat that is very confident.. I reckon the majority of the time they want to be out on an adventure



Sacremist said:


> In that case, why should we put a stop to dogs roaming?


Dogs have been known to attack people ... Roam in packs that general scare people.. can kill farm animals.. I was chatting to a woman who bred dogs.. she was telling me when it was pregnant it hopped the fence and killed and started eating a sheep.... She was mortified never bred the bitch again.,.. If the farmer had seen it the dog would more than likely of been shot dead.. Dogs have more chance of getting into people rabits cages and killing their rabbits.. There was an incident local to me where this did happen two dogs got in a garden and ripped the cage to pieces then killed the rabbits. 
How many cats do you hear of killing farm animal and peoples pet rabbits whilst in the safety of their cages?



Amethyst said:


> Most dogs did just that years ago when it was the norm for many owners to let them wander all day and night, oblivious to where their animal was
> 
> Many poor dogs are still turfed out all day and only go home to hopefully eat and sleep.
> 
> Awful


Personally I haven't seen any dogs roaming round here for a good 10-15 years.. If one is out it is usually because its escaped..



Aurelia said:


> If dogs also used to roam, why do people have dogs now if it's not right to stop a natural instinct?
> 
> Or are dogs domesticated enough now for it to be no longer a natural instinct?


If you let your dog roam now. Can you imagine al the dog cr*p you and your kids would be treading in.. . Also it would be picked up by the council dog warden these days.. If it wasn't chipped and tagged you would get a hefty bill when you got it back.. Also is there a law on this?

Personally my dogs dont want to go out without me.. they will stand with me on the front.. And the other night and what a plonker I was I was letting my mate go out at 4:30am and Bobby had gone out with her.. The others came in and I didn't realise Id shut the door on him..  as I walked from the door I though poo where is he opened the door and he was sat there waiting... Obviously he isn't used to roaming and never will and he hasn't got a roaming instinct in him as have none of my dogs.. 



Aurelia said:


> You've never heard of feral cat colonies? OK so they are not a danger to humans violence wise, but they can carry some conditions and parasites that can make you very poorly!


We dont suffer with these around here either.. I think the last one was probably when I caught Bolly as a kitten.. the CPL came and caught them and neutered and rehomed to farms.. split them up so to speak..

Well I used to have cats.. and In my life have only had two indoor cats.. they came from a rescue and they were sisters.. They were petrified of the out doors..
I have had things happen to my cats.. and often wonder what happened too them..

And I am sure I have said before .. I won't be getting another cat for a very long time as much as I love them as my heart would be torn about not letting them out.. Plus if I got a cat.. that would then mean my rodents would have less time out roaming round my room.. ... And seen as the rodents are here.. I aint gonna get a cat..

I think the difference is the pure size and power of a dog in relation to a cat..

Im sorry to say.. if people are speeding along say the motorway (remember there never used to be as many of these).. They often try for a little swerve, But to be honest most would squish said cat and carry on with their journey.. If you see a dog... You swerve big time cause a pile up and have to report it to the police.. If dog was found to be chipped the owners of the dog would then be in a lot of trouble.. 
So I think you need to take the debate to parliament..


----------



## classixuk

Amethyst said:


> I don't want to get accused of anything "norty" like deflecting form someones thread topic, so ...
> 
> As being discussed ... why do some people think it okay to allow their cats wander, while (quite rightly) they would not allow their dogs to do the same?
> 
> Any cats we have in the future will be indoor cats, but years ago our family cats came and went at will ... thankfully we had worked out how to neuter them though
> 
> Are we simply following old traditional thought if we let them roam? Do we allow it for thier convenience or ours?
> 
> Does acknowledging their "independence" mean we should sacrifice their safety?


Sorry Amethyst, I haven't time to read through every reply, but I didn't want to read and run.

I do let my dog out to wander. He wanders everywhere with me...my parent's house, work, the park etc. In most of those places he is off lead and happy to be running around meeting other people and especially other dogs.

My cat sometimes follows me and the dog down the street, but he's not as keen on long treks or being in the car. He prefers to stay closer to home, happily lieing on the roof of the extension basking in the sun or chasing butterflies in the garden.

I know what it's like to lose a cat to the roads, so I am well aware of the dangers. But then again, dogs can be attacked by other dogs and humans,or simply run out onto the road if they catch sight of something. I think we'd all be horrified if someone in the dog section said that they never walked their dog because of these dangers.

In my opinion, my cat (as well as my dog) need exercise and a fulfilling life. It's my job to provide that for them. So that's why I let my cat out into the garden when he asks me to. If he fancied coming to the park I'd gladly take him, but so far, no joy.


----------



## canuckjill

Well think we have got it all thanks to a second mods help...

anyway I lived in York until 1965 and our dogs were never let out loose they did get out on occaision, my dogs over here have never been allowed to roam either. In 1969 before it became popular then law, I was picking up doggy poo. Everyone has a different lifestyle and circumstances it doesn't mean we do not love our pets be they dogs or cats...


----------



## Amethyst

momentofmadness said:


> Why don't you ask the authorities this question


But, I'm asking it here as it's a forum and I was interested in hearing members thoughts. 

As far as dogs roaming goes, its not a big problem in our are either, but is still is in some places unfortunately. Though without doubt I see more cats roaming the streets.


----------



## noushka05

can i just ask does any one who lets their cats roam feel any responsibility and/or guilt for the impact they have on native wildlife?

im only asking because im equally as passionate about wildlife as i am pets, but i feel so sorry for wild creatures who have so many other man induced pressures to deal with without having our pets to contend with aswell.


----------



## luvmydogs

OK, so the debate so far has brought up:

*Arguments against*

Cats outside:Dogs outside:​1. Can pick up diseases 1. Can pick up diseases​2. Will kill wildlife 2. _May_ be a danger to humans​3. May get hit by a car 3. May get hit by a car​4. May get tortured by humans 4. May get tortured by humans​5. May get into fights 5. May get into fights​6. If not neutered, will add to the 6. If not neutered, will add to the​ to the​huge rescue population huge rescue population​
*Arguments for*
1. We should be allowed to let 1. We should be allowed to let​them out because some like to them out because some​ like to​roam roam​
*What's the difference???*


----------



## Cleo38

noushka05 said:


> can i just ask does any one who lets their cats roam feel any responsibility and/or guilt for the impact they have on native wildlife?
> 
> im only asking because im equally as passionate about wildlife as i am pets, but i feel so sorry for wild creatures who have so many other man induced pressures to deal with without having our pets to contend with aswell.


Honestly? No I don't. Because I believe that I & other humans cause far more of an impact to animals/birds than my pets ever could.

It doesn't matter how much of an ethical shopper I try to be but simply living my every day life means that I will impact the environment.

I too love wildlife & have said that I do try to minimise my pets impact on it but the other night Roxy caught a mole & killed it. I felt sad for it but not guilty


----------



## Guest

noushka05 said:


> can i just ask does any one who lets their cats roam feel any responsibility and/or guilt for the impact they have on native wildlife?
> 
> im only asking because im equally as passionate about wildlife as i am pets, but i feel so sorry for wild creatures who have so many other man induced pressures to deal with without having our pets to contend with aswell.


Erm  do I have to answer that one Noush BUT! if my cat didn't get them my dogs would remember! And my cat seldom does now! not saying he doesn't - but no where near as much as he used to!


----------



## gskinner123

Cockerpoo lover said:


> If you live near a busy road and have bought cats then your intention has always been to keep them in for safety reasons.
> 
> I'm sure when you were deciding on getting cats that you considered that rd and therefore the option of letting them out was a risk you didn't want to take.
> 
> Personally now I couldn't get a cat if I knew that it had to be kept in because of a busy rd or a dangerous area etc... ( thought differently years ago)
> 
> Years ago when I got my two they were both strays. One was from a lady who took them in and one had a litter. My brother took 2 kittens and I took the last one.
> 
> We had lots of discussion on it and I feel that I was selfish in some respects as I saw the kitten and wanted to give it a home.
> 
> But we lived in a flat ( Victorian house conversion) so knew I was going to be giving him a life indoors.
> Then we got another kitten that basically a neighbour had moved and left her pregnant cat behind. The lady underneath me took mum and I took one of the kittens because she was finding it hard to find homes for them all.
> 
> We both felt guilty at times because we could see that they wanted to go out.
> 
> Yes they were loved and we gave all we could but they were lively boys and just wanted to be out. But not good in a flat and we had a busy rd like you near by.
> 
> One sadly died at 5  and the other was my very special boy who lived till nearly 16.
> 
> I moved when he was 14 and allowed him out.
> 
> Boy was I scared!!! but just felt it was right thing to do. Plus area more quiet and safe.
> 
> All he did was sit out in garden enjoying the breeze and I was so pleased that the last 2 years before he died he had the freedom to go out that I had denied him.
> 
> My cat now is another stray that adopted me. He comes and goes as he pleases and is a free spirit.
> 
> If you read my posts I have said all along I see both sides and have done both.
> 
> I don't see anything wrong in either if the cat is happy.
> 
> I just prefer them to have the option to go out that's all.
> 
> That's just my opinion and we are all different- like any of us it's usually formed by personal experiences.


Thanks for clarifying. You seemed to be saying that if a cat wanted to go out that it should under any circumstances. Really, I'm not being pedantic but if you'd previously said 'I think cats should be allowed their freedom so long as the owner feels its safe to do so' then I'd never have asked the question of you.

And I have been repeatedly saying that I respect other people's decisions to allow their cats free range so there's honestly no need to justify your choice to me.


----------



## luvmydogs

luvmydogs said:


> OK, so the debate so far has brought up:
> 
> *Arguments against*
> 
> Cats outside:Dogs outside:​1. Can pick up diseases 1. Can pick up diseases​2. Will kill wildlife 2. _May_ be a danger to humans​3. May get hit by a car 3. May get hit by a car​4. May get tortured by humans 4. May get tortured by humans​5. May get into fights 5. May get into fights​6. If not neutered, will add to the 6. If not neutered, will add to the​ to the​huge rescue population huge rescue population​
> *Arguments for*
> 1. We should be allowed to let 1. We should be allowed to let​them out because some like to them out because some​ like to​roam roam​
> *What's the difference???*


Really, what is the difference? Why should we respect cat owners letting their cats out, but not dogs?


----------



## noushka05

Cleo38 said:


> Honestly? No I don't. Because I believe that I & other humans cause far more of an impact to animals/birds than my pets ever could.
> 
> It doesn't matter how much of an ethical shopper I try to be but simply living my every day life means that I will impact the environment.
> 
> I too love wildlife & have said that I do try to minimise my pets impact on it but the other night Roxy caught a mole & killed it. I felt sad for it but not guilty


i suppose the millions of other free roaming cat owners probably feel the same as you do, but added together surely you have to admit theres a real problem?. Even Researchers hold cats responsible for more bird species extinctions worldwide than any other cause except habitat destruction.


----------



## luvmydogs

Cleo38 said:


> Honestly? No I don't. Because I believe that I & other humans cause far more of an impact to animals/birds than my pets ever could.


Why add to it??


----------



## havoc

> Personally I haven't seen any dogs roaming round here for a good 10-15 years.. If one is out it is usually because its escaped..


Councils now have dog wardens and people are far more likely to report a wandering dog. Dogs have had a legal status as licensed animals hence the need to report it to the police if you hit one with your car and the requirement for owners to keep them under control at all times. Not doing so can lead to a criminal conviction and in more recent times the authorities have been far more likely to act. Even if they only pick up a perfectly nice dog that's got out it now costs money for the owner to get it back in most areas.


----------



## Guest

Just something else!
Cats do get run over! there is NO denying it!
BUT! any cat I have had pays a lot more respect to cars on the road then ever any of my dogs have!
NORMALLY (I said normally) when I have seen a cat on the road it is running like hell to get to the otherside! A dog however! not that is a different kettle of fish - if you see a dog roaming it will often (often means NOT always) be weaving in and out of traffic - My yougest at one time would have been chasing cars (we cured that) and trying to bite their wheels!

NOT NICE but an RTA with a cat is unlikely to damage either the vehicle nor the occupants! The same RTA with a dog could do both!

And me! I swerve for anything alive on the road, be it rabbits , birds , and stupid partridges with death wishes (don't they always go the wrong way) ANYTHING! I even duck for birds when driving!


----------



## luvmydogs

DoubleTrouble said:


> Just something else!
> Cats do get run over! there is NO denying it!
> BUT! any cat I have had pays a lot more respect to cars on the road then ever any of my dogs have!
> NORMALLY (I said normally) when I have seen a cat on the road it is running like hell to get to the otherside! A dog however! not that is a different kettle of fish - if you see a dog roaming it will often (often means NOT always) be weaving in and out of traffic - My yougest at one time would have been chasing cars (we cured that) and trying to bite their wheels!
> 
> NOT NICE but an RTA with a cat is unlikely to damage either the vehicle nor the occupants! The same RTA with a dog could do both!
> 
> And me! I swerve for anything alive on the road, be it rabbits , birds , and stupid partridges with death wishes (don't they always go the wrong way) ANYTHING! I even duck for birds when driving!


Dogs who are used to roaming around become streetwise. When I was a kid there were dogs roaming all over the place, we used to watch them standing at the roadside waiting for the traffic to ease before crossing. My own dog did it. The reason dogs nowadays have no road sense is because they are not allowed out alone.


----------



## gskinner123

noushka05 said:


> can i just ask does any one who lets their cats roam feel any responsibility and/or guilt for the impact they have on native wildlife?
> 
> im only asking because im equally as passionate about wildlife as i am pets, but i feel so sorry for wild creatures who have so many other man induced pressures to deal with without having our pets to contend with aswell.


Yes, noushka, I'd feel very guilty and it's another reason why I don't allow my cats outside of my own garden. Owning five cats I think they'd make a big dent in the local wild bird population, especially as we're rural and have lots of them nesting and fledglings in the garden at this time of year. Not to mention them probably pooing all over neighbours' gardens.

It can be a chore, giving them the limited and supervised access to our own garden, as it means keeping a constant eye but we tie it in with times that we're both at home and working in the garden.


----------



## Cleo38

luvmydogs said:


> Why add to it??


You could say not to drive my car as I am adding to a problem, if I buy any produce (& that's nearly everything) with palm oil then I am adding to destruction of habitats, there are many things we all do that add to the problem yet we still do them.

There are no studies (in this country) that have shown that cats are having an impact on wildlife in general, even the RSPB does not consider cats to be a problem to bird populations.


----------



## luvmydogs

Cleo38 said:


> You could say not to drive my car as I am adding to a problem, if I buy any produce (& that's nearly everything) with palm oil then I am adding to destruction of habitats, there are many things we all do that add to the problem yet we still do them.
> 
> There are no studies (in this country) that have shown that cats are having an impact on wildlife in general, even the RSPB does not consider cats to be a problem to bird populations.


Even if you don't believe cats have an impact on wildlife, (tbh I don't believe dogs roaming are a danger to humans either) what about all the other reasons not to let your cat out? I've outlined what people on here have brought up *twice* now. I don't feel anyone has really answered the OP's original question, which is "Why is it acceptable to let cats roam, but not dogs?" There are as many reasons to keep cats in as there are reasons to keep dogs in.


----------



## koekemakranka

canuckjill said:


> because they are more of a threat to humans then domesticated cats as in biting etc. Tigers well I can relate it to cougars around here, they are a threat to people, livestock and dog walkers so here they are tranquilized and moved to an appropriate area. One of the things that happens when we share the world decisions have to be made on acceptable and not acceptable


Hate to be pedantic, but there are no tigers in Africa


----------



## gskinner123

luvmydogs said:


> Even if the impact on wildlife doesn't bother you, (tbh I don't believe dogs roaming are a danger to humans either) what about all the other reasons not to let your cat out? I've outlined what people on here have brought up *twice* now. I don't feel anyone has really answered the OP's original question, which is "Why is it acceptable to let cats roam, but not dogs?" There are as many reasons to keep cats in as there are reasons to keep dogs in.


If anyone asks, as Amethyst did with this thread, then I'll happily say why I don't allow my cats free range outdoors... otherwise, I always keep my trap shut 

But yes, it's always had me completely baffled that some people believe it's entirely okay to let cats wander but would never dream of doing so with a dog because, as you've pointed out, the dangers are almost *exactly* the same.

I just can't get my head around it. If I owned a dog I'm sure he'd be eyeing up the open spaces around our home with a view to it being one big playground. Does that mean I should open the door and let him out?


----------



## noushka05

gskinner123 said:


> Yes, noushka, I'd feel very guilty and it's another reason why I don't allow my cats outside of my own garden. Owning five cats I think they'd make a big dent in the local wild bird population, especially as we're rural and have lots of them nesting and fledglings in the garden at this time of year. Not to mention them probably pooing all over neighbours' gardens.
> 
> It can be a chore, giving them the limited and supervised access to our own garden, as it means keeping a constant eye but we tie it in with times that we're both at home and working in the garden.


you are a very responsible owner

i have huskies who are very efficient hunters and i never let mine off lead one reason being the devestation they caused to wildlife, even when before we let them on the garden or the allotment we try to check all around to see if theres any fledgelings etc.


----------



## Cleo38

luvmydogs said:


> Even if you don't believe cats have an impact on wildlife, (tbh I don't believe dogs roaming are a danger to humans either) what about all the other reasons not to let your cat out? I've outlined what people on here have brought up *twice* now. I don't feel anyone has really answered the OP's original question, which is "Why is it acceptable to let cats roam, but not dogs?" There are as many reasons to keep cats in as there are reasons to keep dogs in.


I would agree with others that dogs loose would pose more of a danger (in some cases) than cats. Roxy gets stressed & doesn't take well to strangers approaching her so the risk of a bite (& a far more serious one than one from a cat) would be more of a problem. She also would like to chase (if given a chance) joggers & cyclists which agin would terrify some poeple to have a big GSD running after them - may help them get their speed up though 

Also where I live there is livestock which both my dogs would LOVE to chase - I can't imagine the farmers would be too pleased about that.


----------



## koekemakranka

I used to let my cats wander freely (curfewed at night, though). To me, the constant worry wasn't worth it. My compromise was to catproof my garden, then I felt they had the best of both worlds. My cats are indoors (when we go to work and at night), but are allowed out into the catproofed garden early mornings (my OH gets up at 5 am) and afternoons until about an hour after dark. This seems to keep them satisfied. Even if they want to wander FREEEEEE, tough luck, they can't. I''m the alpha human here. I know of many people who allow their cats to roam, in fact, most people I know do. It is not my place to judge. It is a very personal decision. However, what does REALLY irritate me is other neighbourhood cats coming on to my property and yowling and spraying. It upsets my cats and me. I have dark thoughts about the local tom. I am sorry I ever let my cats out to do the same.


----------



## luvmydogs

Cleo38 said:


> I would agree with others that dogs loose would pose more of a danger (in some cases) than cats. Roxy gets stressed & doesn't take well to strangers approaching her so the risk of a bite (& a far more serious one than one from a cat) would be more of a problem. She also would like to chase (if given a chance) joggers & cyclists which agin would terrify some poeple to have a big GSD running after them - may help them get their speed up though
> 
> Also where I live there is livestock which both my dogs would LOVE to chase - I can't imagine the farmers would be too pleased about that.


And I would agree with others that cats have a massive impact on wildlife.Your dogs would probably be very different if they had been allowed to roam around when young.


----------



## luvmydogs

koekemakranka said:


> My compromise was to catproof my garden, then I felt they had the best of both worlds.


This is perfect IMHO. Why wouldn't everyone with cats do this, to keep them safe if nothing else??


----------



## gskinner123

noushka05 said:


> i have huskies who are very efficient hunters and i never let mine off lead one reason being the devestation they caused to wildlife, even when before we let them on the garden or the allotment we try to check all around to see if theres any fledgelings etc.


I'd be doubting what you what said were it not for the fact that my sis & her husband bought a husky puppy about six months ago  She's one big, beautiful bundle of trouble and it's taking their combined brain power to stay one step ahead of her!


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

gskinner123 said:


> Thanks for clarifying. You seemed to be saying that if a cat wanted to go out that it should under any circumstances. Really, I'm not being pedantic but if you'd previously said 'I think cats should be allowed their freedom so long as the owner feels its safe to do so' then I'd never have asked the question of you.
> 
> And I have been repeatedly saying that I respect other people's decisions to allow their cats free range so there's honestly no need to justify your choice to me.


It wasn't really meant to be justifying my choice as I don't feel that I have to do that. I was just sharing my experiences which was pertinent to the subject matter and showing that past experiences can shape how you treat your cat.


----------



## Cleo38

luvmydogs said:


> And I would agree with others that cats have a massive impact on wildlife.Your dogs would probably be very different if they had been allowed to roam around when young.


Both my dogs are rescue so I don't know very much about their backgrounds. If their socialisation had been different then they may be more comfortable around people (in Roxy's case).

However I think that there are certain charateristic of dog breeds that you can't change & you have to take that in to account


----------



## luvmydogs

Cleo38 said:


> Both my dogs are rescue so I don't know very much about their backgrounds. If their socialisation had been different then they may be more comfortable around people (in Roxy's case).
> 
> However I think that there are certain charateristic of dog breeds that you can't change & you have to take that in to account


Agreed. And there's very little you can change about a cats hunting habits or lack of road sense. What I still don't get is why nobody with cats who roam outside has agreed that there are just as many reasons to keep cats inside as there are reasons for dogs.


----------



## noushka05

Cleo38 said:


> You could say not to drive my car as I am adding to a problem, if I buy any produce (& that's nearly everything) with palm oil then I am adding to destruction of habitats, there are many things we all do that add to the problem yet we still do them.
> 
> There are no studies (in this country) that have shown that cats are having an impact on wildlife in general, even the RSPB does not consider cats to be a problem to bird populations.


there is this study ive already linked to it Domestic Cat Predation on Wildlife but there certainly needs to be more intensive studies done, but seriously you'd have to have your head in the sand to ignore the fact that millions of cats hunting wont be having an impact.


----------



## noushka05

gskinner123 said:


> I'd be doubting what you what said were it not for the fact that my sis & her husband bought a husky puppy about six months ago  She's one big, beautiful bundle of trouble and it's taking their combined brain power to stay one step ahead of her!


haha she sounds very typical of the breed


----------



## suzy93074

Yes cats do catch wildlife .....unfortunately ....it is something I dont like but I have tried to minimise - my cat does not go out at night when a lot of wildlife are out hunting - that said I cannot guarantee he doesnt hunt - I have had 2 dead mice from him in the 7yrs I have had him - and no birds I always deter him from chasing anything if im outside - I try and do what I can ....tbo my cat seems to prefer bringing back bits of plastic!! I always seem to have a pile at the front door :blink:


----------



## noushka05

koekemakranka said:


> I used to let my cats wander freely (curfewed at night, though). To me, the constant worry wasn't worth it. My compromise was to catproof my garden, then I felt they had the best of both worlds. My cats are indoors (when we go to work and at night), but are allowed out into the catproofed garden early mornings (my OH gets up at 5 am) and afternoons until about an hour after dark. This seems to keep them satisfied. Even if they want to wander FREEEEEE, tough luck, they can't. I''m the alpha human here. I know of many people who allow their cats to roam, in fact, most people I know do. It is not my place to judge. It is a very personal decision. However, what does REALLY irritate me is other neighbourhood cats coming on to my property and yowling and spraying. It upsets my cats and me. I have dark thoughts about the local tom. I am sorry I ever let my cats out to do the same.


have to say well done for taking responsibilty for your cats.



luvmydogs said:


> This is perfect IMHO. Why wouldn't everyone with cats do this, to keep them safe if nothing else??


could not agree more


----------



## Ren

Don't think this has been mentioned yet so far but as far as _pedigree_ cats go all ped breeders I have spoken to/seen website/heard of will NOT sell their cats to outdoor homes. This seems like a relevant point, breeders obviously fully realise the dangers of outside as well as the fact that ped cats are 'desirable' and could be stolen etc. I personally would feel the same for any moggy I owned though and will never believe in free roaming. As well as the various manmade dangers to them which mean that going out is never safe, I am a conservationist and the nations wildlife is under too great a threat for me to ignore.


----------



## Guest

Thankfully my cat leaves the front door and goes and sits in the bush in the front garden and that is as far as she ever goes, she may have a little wander round the street with the other cats but she will not go any further than the street.


----------



## momentofmadness

koekemakranka said:


> Hate to be pedantic, but there are no tigers in Africa


I think you will find Jill was replyig to this comment..



Sacremist said:


> In that case, why should we put a stop to dogs roaming? What about tigers who wander into villages in Africa, why should they be prevented from wandering where they like?


But still can't see Jill having put where Tigers are from.. 



canuckjill said:


> because they are more of a threat to humans then domesticated cats as in biting etc. Tigers well I can relate it to cougars around here, they are a threat to people, livestock and dog walkers so here they are tranquilized and moved to an appropriate area. One of the things that happens when we share the world decisions have to be made on acceptable and not acceptable


Also................
You quoted part of my post.. and if you had quoted it all you would see I have explained why.. 


havoc said:


> Councils now have dog wardens and people are far more likely to report a wandering dog. Dogs have had a legal status as licensed animals hence the need to report it to the police if you hit one with your car and the requirement for owners to keep them under control at all times. Not doing so can lead to a criminal conviction and in more recent times the authorities have been far more likely to act. Even if they only pick up a perfectly nice dog that's got out it now costs money for the owner to get it back in most areas.


Personally I haven't seen any dogs roaming round here for a good 10-15 years.. If one is out it is usually because its escaped.. 
if you let your dog roam now. Can you imagine al the dog cr*p you and your kids would be treading in.. . Also it would be picked up by the council dog warden these days.. If it wasn't chipped and tagged you would get a hefty bill when you got it back.. Also is there a law on this?


----------



## Cleo38

luvmydogs said:


> Agreed. And there's very little you can change about a cats hunting habits or lack of road sense. What I still don't get is why nobody with cats who roam outside has agreed that there are just as many reasons to keep cats inside as there are reasons for dogs.


Because they (& I) don't believe there are as many reasons.

As I have said before dogs pose more of a risk to people than cats do - they can also hurt each other alot more than cats do so that is one area I believe that I do not let my dogs roam but will let my cats.


----------



## tjk

i dont think its acceptable to let either dogs or cats roam my cat does use the garden and im lucky she does not have any interest in leaving it if she had tried to wander off she wouldnt be allowed in the garden unless she was harnessed my animals are like my children and their saftey is my top priority 
just my opininion on my own cat


----------



## luvmydogs

Cleo38 said:


> Because they (& I) don't believe there are as many reasons.
> 
> As I have said before dogs pose more of a risk to people than cats do - they can also hurt each other alot more than cats do so that is one area I believe that I do not let my dogs roam but will let my cats.


Could you list the reasons please, like I did? I thought I'd listed them all, obviously there are more (probably on both sides) 

ETA: or are those you've just mentioned the extra 2? I balanced the human risk thing (which I personally think is negligible) up with the wildlife thing. And come on, cats don't fight?


----------



## Ren

tjk said:


> i dont think its acceptable to let either dogs or cats roam my cat does use the garden and im lucky she does not have any interest in leaving it if she had tried to wander off she wouldnt be allowed in the garden unless she was harnessed my animals are like my children and their saftey is my top priority
> just my opininion on my own cat


That is in my view the perfect situation. As far as I am concerned, the only circumstances under which cats should be outside is under supervision, on a harness or in a cat proofed garden. I just can't understand those that let their cats wander around in the maelstrom of human activity, it is a recipe for disaster. Also letting them out to 'satisfy their instincts' just proves that the owner does not have time or cannot be bothered to replicate these situations in a safe environment, where it does not cause harm to them or the ecosystem.


----------



## momentofmadness

luvmydogs said:


> And come on, cats don't fight?


I haven't heard of cats fighting till they kill each other? I could be wrong but it is just something I have never heard of.. Cats usually brawl then run off..


----------



## noushka05

Ren said:


> Don't think this has been mentioned yet so far but as far as _pedigree_ cats go all ped breeders I have spoken to/seen website/heard of will NOT sell their cats to outdoor homes. This seems like a relevant point, breeders obviously fully realise the dangers of outside as well as the fact that ped cats are 'desirable' and could be stolen etc. I personally would feel the same for any moggy I owned though and will never believe in free roaming. As well as the various manmade dangers to them which mean that going out is never safe, I am a conservationist and the nations wildlife is under too great a threat for me to ignore.


this is exactly the way i feel i'd be equally as worried for a roaming moggy as i would for a pedigree, in our village alone theres numerous posters up for missing moggies, and i too am a keen conservationist and im really concerned about the pressure cats have on native species... so if i didnt think i could make a cat happy by keeping it under control than i personally could never get one ..simple as.....but i know i could


----------



## luvmydogs

Fight Wound Infections ~ Pawprints and Purrs, Inc.


momentofmadness said:


> I haven't heard of cats fighting till they kill each other? I could be wrong but it is just something I have never heard of.. Cats usually brawl then run off..


So do dogs, unless they are _trained to fight._


----------



## Guest

How many cat fights do you hear or see??


How many dog fights would you see if they were all roaming the streets?? 


How many cats do you see or hear of attacking people??


How many dogs do you see or hear of attacking people if they were roaming the streets??


----------



## Marley boy

my cats are allowed in the garden during the day, i have a very small garden that i cat proofed so i can keep an eye on them and i know they cant get out best of both worlds in my opinion. I wouldnt let them roam free even though i live in a very quiet close about 1 car 2-3 cars per hour, so the garden gives them best of both worlds


----------



## noushka05

KathrynH said:


> How many cat fights do you hear or see??
> 
> How many dog fights would you see if they were all roaming the streets??
> 
> How many cats do you see or hear of attacking people??
> 
> How many dogs do you see or hear of attacking people if they were roaming the streets??


some of the reasons for keeping cats and dogs in are different and some are the same


----------



## luvmydogs

KathrynH said:


> How many cat fights do you hear or see??
> 
> How many dog fights would you see if they were all roaming the streets??
> 
> How many cats do you see or hear of attacking people??
> 
> How many dogs do you see or hear of attacking people if they were roaming the streets??


I see cats fighting all the time here, possibly leading to infections as the link I posted talked about. I keep saying, I saw NO dog fights in the street when I was a kid, and there were loads of dogs roaming around. Also no dog attacks on people. They were well adjusted, because they were used to seeing and coping with all kinds of people and other dogs.


----------



## Amethyst

luvmydogs said:


> Agreed. And there's very little you can change about a cats hunting habits or lack of road sense. What I still don't get is why nobody with cats who roam outside has agreed that there are just as many reasons to keep cats inside as there are reasons for dogs.


I thought your points were very valid, though I'm not a cat owner at moment, but had 5 at one time 

Where we live there are several lovely young cats that I see regularly, all seem well fed and happy, they will run up to you for a fuss. I have thought how easy it would be to pick them up and walk away with them ... if I was inclined 

Another member's post, Ren, makes me ponder if thier owners would allow them out onto the streets if they were pedigrees? If they had paid hundreds for them? Maybe they think because they are moggies, nobody will touch them ... or maybe they don't think about it at all


----------



## Guest

luvmydogs said:


> I see cats fighting all the time here, possibly leading to infections as the link I posted talked about. I keep saying, I saw NO dog fights in the street when I was a kid, and there were loads of dogs roaming around. Also no dog attacks on people. They were well adjusted, because they were used to seeing and coping with all kinds of people and other dogs.


Yes it was the same when i was growing up but it not like that now unfortunately. 

My point is you would definitely see more dog fights than cats in the streets.


----------



## luvmydogs

KathrynH said:


> Yes it was the same when i was growing up but it not like that now unfortunately.
> 
> My point is you would definitely see more dog fights than cats in the streets.


That is conjecture.


----------



## Guest

I would like to thing that EVERYONE on this forum has their pets - in this case cats , welfare and best interests at heart! Some of you chose to keep you cats in - others allow their cats out! OK the thread were started as a question by the OP but some posts do read to me to be some members that are dissing those that do let their cats out! Don't ask me to quote folk as I ain't about the enter into a cat fight!  
You can provide as much evidence as you like as to why it is best to keep cats in -but until I see cat wardens on the streets,signs telling me to pick up after my cat, and notices saying cats must be kept on a lead at all times then I for one shall be continuing to let my cat out! 


Edited to add! of course should my cat ever become infirm or at risk I would of course keep him in ! and I do NOT like to hear of cats being left out ALL night! AND I do think strongly that they should be desexed!


----------



## Guest

DoubleTrouble said:


> I would like to thing that EVERYONE on this forum has their pets - in this case cats , welfare and best interests at heart! Some of you chose to keep you cats in - others allow their cats out! OK the thread were started as a question by the OP but some posts do read to me to be some members that are dissing those that do let their cats out! Don't ask me to quote folk as I ain't about the enter into a cat fight!
> You can provide as much evidence as you like as to why it is best to keep cats in -but until I see cat wardens on the streets,signs telling me to pick up after my cat, and notices saying cats must be kept on a lead at all times then I for one shall be continuing to let my cat out!


Here!! Here!!!!


----------



## luvmydogs

Still, no-one has been able to give a list of all the reasons why it is acceptable to let cats roam, but not dogs. They need to be side by side IMHO, so we can see clearly that (if proven) there are many more reasons for cats than dogs.


----------



## Amethyst

I haven't seen cats fighting for a long time, but I have HEARD them recently and it's blood curdling, no doubt toms fighting among themselves and any other neutered male they come across who trespasses onto their territory 

I hate the sound they make


----------



## Guest

luvmydogs said:


> That is conjecture.


Well not sure where you live then but in my area it would be very true.


----------



## Guest

luvmydogs said:


> Still, no-one has been able to give a list of all the reasons why it is acceptable to let cats roam, but not dogs. They need to be side by side IMHO, so we can see clearly that (if proven) there are many more reasons for cats than dogs.


I just did!!!


----------



## Guest

luvmydogs said:


> That is conjecture.


It may not be proven but I think we could safely assume that we would see a sharp rise in both dog fights and attacks on humans


----------



## Guest

Amethyst said:


> I haven't seen cats fighting for a long time, but I have HEARD them recently and it's blood curdling, no doubt toms fighting among themselves and any other neutered male they come across who trespasses onto their territory
> 
> I hate the sound they make


Yes i hate hearing cat fights too the noise is awful.


----------



## luvmydogs

DoubleTrouble said:


> I would like to thing that EVERYONE on this forum has their pets - in this case cats , welfare and best interests at heart! Some of you chose to keep you cats in - others allow their cats out! OK the thread were started as a question by the OP but some posts do read to me to be some members that are dissing those that do let their cats out! Don't ask me to quote folk as I ain't about the enter into a cat fight!
> You can provide as much evidence as you like as to why it is best to keep cats in -but until I see cat wardens on the streets,signs telling me to pick up after my cat, and notices saying cats must be kept on a lead at all times then I for one shall be continuing to let my cat out!
> 
> 
> Edited to add! of course should my cat ever become infirm or at risk I would of course keep him in ! and I do NOT like to hear of cats being left out ALL night! AND I do think strongly that they should be desexed!


I agree that most people will have their pets best interests at heart - but how many people come on here and say their dog is on an awful dog or cat food, not realising the damage they could be doing? I don't think people let their cats out because they don't care about the cat, but I do think they should think about the bigger picture, which is what this thread has highlighted.

I also think that there are people who believe dogs should be allowed to roam.....


----------



## Guest

Amethyst said:


> I haven't seen cats fighting for a long time, but I have HEARD them recently and it's blood curdling, no doubt toms fighting among themselves and any other neutered male they come across who trespasses onto their territory
> 
> I hate the sound they make


I have heard the sounds too! And cat fights are horrific! Fortunately I have not seen my cat damaged from cat attack s although we do have a brazen tom that will venture into my garden on occassion!


----------



## Marley boy

I will add though that if marley was allowed to roam free he would probably run towards an on comming car to say hello, where as i sure cats are more road savy, not that i would risk it, but i think cats are more cautious. I think it is hard to compare dogs and cats, for one dogs get taken for walks everyday and to fun places to stimulate them i.e parks, wood, beach (well in theory they should) so there is no need for them to roam. Indoor cats however dont usually get taken out to the park for stimulation ect. This is the reason i let my cats have the garden as a comprimise


----------



## tjk

Amethyst said:


> Another member's post, Ren, makes me ponder if thier owners would allow them out onto the streets if they were pedigrees? If they had paid hundreds for them? Maybe they think because they are moggies, nobody will touch them ... or maybe they don't think about it at all


mm they would be mistaken in most areas, where i live moggies and pedigrees are stolen if someone is going to steel a cat they will regardless of breed i think

also why do people think free roaming cats dont cause a nuisence ? i have been harrassed by a cat for around three weeks it sounds like a calling female and she sits on my drive or outside next door howling till 3-4 in the morning i wouldnt let my dogs out barking at peoples doors at that time ! and as she is only there at night im assuming she let out to fend for herself at night :nono:


----------



## noushka05

luvmydogs said:


> Still, no-one has been able to give a list of all the reasons why it is acceptable to let cats roam, but not dogs. They need to be side by side IMHO, so we can see clearly that (if proven) there are many more reasons for cats than dogs.


ageed...again

years ago latch key dogs where a common sight, thank goodness its no longer acceptable for folk to shirk their responsibility for their dogs, i just hope that attitudes change towards cats soon aswell, not just for their sake but also for our wildlifes sake.


----------



## momentofmadness

Amethyst said:


> I haven't seen cats fighting for a long time, but I have HEARD them recently and it's blood curdling, no doubt toms fighting among themselves and any other neutered male they come across who trespasses onto their territory
> 
> I hate the sound they make


Sounds like babies seriously freaking.. there are a couple behind me.. But like I say.. I dont think they fight till death.. more run away.....

Also I just want to add.. If cats had to stay in..... I would imagine Farmers who keep a couple of cats for vermin control would be horrified.. 
They have there cats for a job, as everything else they have.. 
And Also know from experience of growing up on a beef farm that the cats do most of their work through the night/early hours..

So where would it leave these people? Or.. Because they want a cat for a job and need the cat to have outside access do they not deserve to own cats? Cause they don't considered them as cute cuddly pets.

I dont think I have ever kept my horse on a yard where we haven't had a farm cat... Vermin control and a farm dog.. for intruder alert..


----------



## Ren

tjk said:


> mm they would be mistaken in most areas, where i live moggies and pedigrees are stolen if someone is going to steel a cat they will regardless of breed i think
> 
> also why do people think free roaming cats dont cause a nuisence ? i have been harrassed by a cat for around three weeks it sounds like a calling female and she sits on my drive or outside next door howling till 3-4 in the morning i wouldnt let my dogs out barking at peoples doors at that time ! and as she is only there at night im assuming she let out to fend for herself at night :nono:


This is a good point! My OH's mum was telling me the other week about a half feral cat who was hissing and yowling at her and her collie and then chased them down the street!


----------



## Guest

luvmydogs said:


> I agree that most people will have their pets best interests at heart - but how many people come on here and say their dog is on an awful dog or cat food, not realising the damage they could be doing? I don't think people let their cats out because they don't care about the cat, but I do think they should think about the bigger picture, which is what this thread has highlighted.
> 
> I also think that there are people who believe dogs should be allowed to roam.....


Food is something that is easily addressed though educating! Besides that the pet food market is a massive industry and folk are now more aware what they are feeding their animals on. And there are still those (some farmers for instance who keep their cats on a meagre diet).

Conditioning people to change the attitudes towards letting their cats out is going to be one mamouth task - and something that I do not think will ever happen. Because there are equally as many people who consider it cruel (that is NOT my opinion by the way) to keep cats in as there are those that consider it cruel to let them out!!


----------



## luvmydogs

I just wonder what kind of reception someone would get if they said they let their dogs roam and would not take on anyone else's opinion that this is the wrong thing to do......


----------



## Amethyst

luvmydogs said:


> Still, no-one has been able to give a list of all the reasons why it is acceptable to let cats roam, but not dogs. They need to be side by side IMHO, so we can see clearly that (if proven) there are many more reasons for cats than dogs.


To be honest I think you (generalising) could list as much as you liked and those owners who choose to let their cats roam would not change their opinions.

My belief is that it is still acceptable and pretty much the norm because it's traditional and it's easier 

Before anyone goes beserk ... if I am honest, that is why I used to let my cats come and go as they pleased years ago ... I could have waxed lyrical about how much they loved it etc. But truth be told it was also the easiest option and at that time most everyone did it!

My thoughts really only changed after my involvement with rescue


----------



## Aurelia

Cleo38 said:


> You could say not to drive my car as I am adding to a problem, if I buy any produce (& that's nearly everything) with palm oil then I am adding to destruction of habitats, there are many things we all do that add to the problem yet we still do them.
> 
> There are no studies (in this country) that have shown that cats are having an impact on wildlife in general, even the RSPB does not consider cats to be a problem to bird populations.


You sure?

BTO: Paws for thought - cats and garden birds
The RSPB: Advice: Some facts and figures about cats


----------



## Guest

momentofmadness said:


> Sounds like babies seriously freaking.. there are a couple behind me.. But like I say.. I dont think they fight till death.. more run away.....
> 
> Also I just want to add.. If cats had to stay in..... I would imagine Farmers who keep a couple of cats for vermin control would be horrified..
> They have there cats for a job, as everything else they have..
> And Also know from experience of growing up on a beef farm that the cats do most of their work through the night/early hours..
> 
> So where would it leave these people? Or.. Because they want a cat for a job and need the cat to have outside access do they not deserve to own cats? Cause they don't considered them as cute cuddly pets.
> 
> I dont think I have ever kept my horse on a yard where we haven't had a farm cat... Vermin control and a farm dog.. for intruder alert..


I actually think that horses should be kept in stable and NEVER allowed into fields to graze - purely because of the human attacks that we have heard of of late!

Only joking! Just an example of how daft it all reads to me!


----------



## noushka05

momentofmadness said:


> Sounds like babies seriously freaking.. there are a couple behind me.. But like I say.. I dont think they fight till death.. more run away.....
> 
> Also I just want to add.. If cats had to stay in..... I would imagine Farmers who keep a couple of cats for vermin control would be horrified..
> They have there cats for a job, as everything else they have..
> And Also know from experience of growing up on a beef farm that the cats do most of their work through the night/early hours..
> 
> So where would it leave these people? Or.. Because they want a cat for a job and need the cat to have outside access do they not deserve to own cats? Cause they don't considered them as cute cuddly pets.
> 
> I dont think I have ever kept my horse on a yard where we haven't had a farm cat... Vermin control and a farm dog.. for intruder alert..


farmers who care about conservation should be encouraging indiginous predators such as barn owls to keep down their rodent populations.


----------



## luvmydogs

Amethyst said:


> To be honest I think you (generalising) could list as much as you liked and those owners who choose to let their cats roam would not change their opinions.
> 
> My belief is that it is still acceptable and pretty much the norm because it's traditional and it's easier
> 
> Before anyone goes beserk ... if I am honest, that is why I used to let my cats come and go as they pleased years ago ... I could have waxed lyrical about how much they loved it etc. But truth be told it was also the easiest option and at that time most everyone did it!
> 
> My thoughts really only changed after my involvement with rescue


Agreed.


----------



## Guest

DoubleTrouble said:


> I actually think that horses should be kept in stable and NEVER allowed into fields to graze - purely because of the human attacks that we have heard of of late!
> 
> Only joking! Just an example of how daft it all reads to me!


I was reading that then and was like "WTF DT!!! Until i read the second sentence!!!


----------



## luvmydogs

DoubleTrouble said:


> I actually think that horses should be kept in stable and NEVER allowed into fields to graze - purely because of the human attacks that we have heard of of late!
> 
> Only joking! Just an example of how daft it all reads to me!


Why not let them roam wherever they want, rather than keep them in a secure field then????


----------



## Amethyst

DoubleTrouble said:


> I have heard the sounds too! And cat fights are horrific! Fortunately I have not seen my cat damaged from cat attack s although we do have a brazen tom that will venture into my garden on occassion!


I think the neutered boys are inclined to turn and run bless them, where the toms stand up to each other


----------



## suzy93074

I think we are losing sight of some things here! - there are probably not that many differences between letting cats and dogs roam - but in context I think because of all the different breeds of dogs and their natures if left unsupervised the risk to the public COULD be more than that of a small cat - MOST cats IMO when outside tend to shy away from public places - they dont want to be where there are loads of humans,cars,noise etc - whereas many dogs will be drawn to those areas and want to play and interact with humans ie jumping up at them or such - not many cats do that they normally run away and hide under a bush if you walk past! so for me the dangers of dogs out alone are more real than a cat.


----------



## suzy93074

Amethyst said:


> I think the neutered boys are inclined to turn and run bless them, where the toms stand up to each other


My cat is neutered - but he will stick up for his territory!!


----------



## luvmydogs

suzy93074 said:


> I think we are losing sight of some things here! - there are probably not that many differences between letting cats and dogs roam - but in context I think because of all the different breeds of dogs and their natures if left unsupervised the risk to the public COULD be more than that of a small cat - MOST cats IMO when outside tend to shy away from public places - they dont want to be where there are loads of humans,cars,noise etc - whereas many dogs will be drawn to those areas and want to play and interact with humans ie jumping up at them or such - not many cats do that they normally run away and hide under a bush if you walk past! so for me the dangers of dogs out alone are more real than a cat.


Did nobody read the several posts I wrote where I said if they were used to roaming they would be less of a danger?? Is that IT - the only reason to let cats out but not dogs?


----------



## Amethyst

suzy93074 said:


> My cat is neutered - but he will stick up for his territory!!


Brave little lad, but I hope he never gets bitten by any of the toms, they can unfortunately carry some nasty disease and cat bites are invariably horrible infected wounds 

Tell him to be careful


----------



## suzy93074

Amethyst said:


> To be honest I think you (generalising) could list as much as you liked and those owners who choose to let their cats roam would not change their opinions.
> 
> My belief is that it is still acceptable and pretty much the norm because it's traditional and it's easier
> 
> Before anyone goes beserk ... if I am honest, that is why I used to let my cats come and go as they pleased years ago ... I could have waxed lyrical about how much they loved it etc. But truth be told it was also the easiest option and at that time most everyone did it!
> 
> My thoughts really only changed after my involvement with rescue


Not true - I didnt let mine out because its an easy option ?? where is it an easy option? you worry about them - I have been out looking for my cat to get him in - etc etc - its by no means easy! I resent that actually


----------



## luvmydogs

suzy93074 said:


> Not true - I didnt let mine out because its an easy option ?? where is it an easy option? you worry about them - I have been out looking for my cat to get him in - etc etc - its by no means easy! I resent that actually


So why not catproof your garden and let him play there, but keep him safe?


----------



## Guest

DoubleTrouble said:


> I actually think that horses should be kept in stable and NEVER allowed into fields to graze - purely because of the human attacks that we have heard of of late!
> 
> Only joking! Just an example of how daft it all reads to me!


Actually now! reading back what I said! it may not be such a bad idea! I have seen horses in fields next to where ragwort is growing! How careless is that?

Only joking!! honest!


----------



## gskinner123

Perhaps the answers to Amethyst's interesting original question might be more easily understood if the question was rephrased to "please tell us why you don't allow your dog out unaccompanied".


----------



## Guest

Right! not wanting to go off track! but what do you guys who keep you pussy's in then think to those that keep their cats kenneled ( or catteried whatever you call it) all the time! Those cats that NEVER go into a house - nor are allowed to roam?
Just curious!


----------



## luvmydogs

I've decided to let my dogs roam the streets. I'm sure they'll be fine, they don't run up to cars, aren't nasty with people or other dogs, and aren't over friendly so won't run up to people and scare them.

Whats wrong with the above paragraph?


----------



## suzy93074

Amethyst said:


> Brave little lad, but I hope he never gets bitten by any of the toms, they can unfortunately carry some nasty disease and cat bites are invariably horrible infected wounds
> 
> Tell him to be careful


oh god yes I learnt that the hard way - he has had a couple of scraps where he got an abcess from the saliva of another cat which as we all know is very infectious and full of bacteria - hence I cut that risk by not allowing him out at night after a certain time  he does seem to think he is a little hard nut !


----------



## koekemakranka

Cleo38 said:


> Because they (& I) don't believe there are as many reasons.
> 
> As I have said before dogs pose more of a risk to people than cats do - they can *also hurt each other alot more than cats do so th*at is one area I believe that I do not let my dogs roam but will let my cats.


I am afraid I disagree. My cat was badly mauled by another cat. he almost lost his eye and suffered extensive bruising on his body and a wound which the vet missed which turned into a terrible abscess.


----------



## Gem16

wow 34 pages :lol:


----------



## Guest

DoubleTrouble said:


> Right! not wanting to go off track! but what do you guys who keep you pussy's in then think to those that keep their cats kenneled ( or catteried whatever you call it) all the time! Those cats that NEVER go into a house - nor are allowed to roam?
> Just curious!


Well i was talking to my hubby about this as i have been away and put my cat in a cattery and although i had no choice thought it was REALLY cruel to do this, they have no room to run and play etc, they have no interaction with humans apart from feeding time.

My cat has the run of the house, all the rooms, gardens she does what she likes and goes where she likes and it only dawned on me that she was confined to a pen for a whole week!!!! 

I will never do it again, i will ask someone to come round and feed her etc next time.


----------



## Guest

luvmydogs said:


> I've decided to let my dogs roam the streets. I'm sure they'll be fine, they don't run up to cars, aren't nasty with people or other dogs, and aren't over friendly so won't run up to people and scare them.
> 
> Whats wrong with the above paragraph?


You would be breaking the law!
You are NOT breaking the law by letting your cat roam!


----------



## Guest

luvmydogs said:


> I've decided to let my dogs roam the streets. I'm sure they'll be fine, they don't run up to cars, aren't nasty with people or other dogs, and aren't over friendly so won't run up to people and scare them.
> 
> Whats wrong with the above paragraph?


All of it!!


----------



## luvmydogs

DoubleTrouble said:


> You would be breaking the law!


Not here I wouldn't!


----------



## momentofmadness

luvmydogs said:


> Why not let them roam wherever they want, rather than keep them in a secure field then????


Some do... 

Personally, My horses went in the field as much as possible.. actually my big mare lived out at night came in in the morn and went out again later.. In that time she was in I would groom ride and generally pester her.. 
Unfortunately our section A had limited time out bacause of a condition she had.. and if I had left her out.. I would have been prosecuted by the RSPCA for neglect..

My dogs they get to roam about on the walks we go on off lead we can go off lead for several miles.. and have plenty of woods etc for them to have plenty of free time.. .. They also roam freely around my house. 

My Rats.. In the evening get to roam around my living room.. And often in the day they get to run up and down the stairs.. 

The hamsters get the stairs or a room one by one..  Or go in their balls at he same time.. But I have had a couple escape from the balls so it isn't something I do often also the noise from them crashing into everything is horrendous..

When I had budgies My cage was open apart from when we ate in that room.. They were quite happy to sit on the window sill or on he curtains.. 

My cats I let out.. I don't think I have enough room in my house to let one have the room they need.. Cats like to jump run and chase things..

My fish are in a tank.. TBO I would like to have a much bigger tank.. But Im afraid I haven't the room to keep a 6' tank..

When we had the ducks.. They roamed the garden.. thinking they were dogs..

When I had rabbits they were out virtually 24/7 through the warm months. They weren't made with big strong back legs to sit around in cages..


----------



## suzy93074

luvmydogs said:


> So why not catproof your garden and let him play there, but keep him safe?


Because I live where there are communal gardens - the fact I let mine out is because where iam there are NO main roads - he just has lots of garden space and bushes and paths between areas so I dont have the fear of him getting run over - my fear is mostly other cats - ie fighting BUT I minimise that risk by him having a curfew at night which is when most cats are out and get into fights


----------



## gskinner123

DoubleTrouble said:


> You would be breaking the law!
> You are NOT breaking the law by letting your cat roam!


Why is it against the law to allow a dog to roam?


----------



## suzy93074

DoubleTrouble said:


> You would be breaking the law!
> You are NOT breaking the law by letting your cat roam!


And thats it pure and simple!


----------



## Guest

luvmydogs said:


> Not here I wouldn't!


Opps! forgot - you are in Cyprus arn't you?
But the majority of folks contributing to this thread are in the UK - where I don't need to remind anyone that the laws are different!


----------



## noushka05

DoubleTrouble said:


> You are NOT breaking the law by letting your cat roam!


have to say great example of why the law is an ass:


----------



## suzy93074

KathrynH said:


> Well i was talking to my hubby about this as i have been away and put my cat in a cattery and although i had no choice thought it was REALLY cruel to do this, they have no room to run and play etc, they have no interaction with humans apart from feeding time.
> 
> My cat has the run of the house, all the rooms, gardens she does what she likes and goes where she likes and it only dawned on me that she was confined to a pen for a whole week!!!!
> 
> I will never do it again, i will ask someone to come round and feed her etc next time.


I would NEVER take my cat to a cattery! There is only one person who can look after my cat - a friend of my OH's dont ask me why but Jinks loves him and he comes and sorts him out - stays and plays with him etc and I feel much more comfortable with that situ - If he cannot look after him then I would have to reassess my holiday plans


----------



## lymorelynn

luvmydogs said:


> Not here I wouldn't!


Well, no not where you live but then where you live is it uncommon to see dogs roaming the streets? I have visited several foreign countries where it is seen as quite normal.


----------



## momentofmadness

DoubleTrouble said:


> Actually now! reading back what I said! it may not be such a bad idea! *I have seen horses in fields next to where ragwort is growing! How careless is that?*
> 
> Only joking!! honest!


Actually that is pretty careless ..  I have spent many days removing ragwort by hand just to prevent this in and around the fields my horses have used..


----------



## Guest

gskinner123 said:


> Why is it against the law to allow a dog to roam?


A dog is not allowed onthe public highway if not under control! if it were alone it would not be under control!
Also it is illegal for a dog to foul the pavement! and I ain't me one yet who picks up after itselF1


----------



## tjk

DoubleTrouble said:


> Right! not wanting to go off track! but what do you guys who keep you pussy's in then think to those that keep their cats kenneled ( or catteried whatever you call it) all the time! Those cats that NEVER go into a house - nor are allowed to roam?
> Just curious!


i dont agree with that either 
although i do understand why people would do it say with breeding males same as i understand why people do let their cats roam free 
its personal choice at the end of the day and i would never say someone was a bad owner for doing either 
but i would not do either of those


----------



## Ren

DoubleTrouble said:


> Right! not wanting to go off track! but what do you guys who keep you pussy's in then think to those that keep their cats kenneled ( or catteried whatever you call it) all the time! Those cats that NEVER go into a house - nor are allowed to roam?
> Just curious!


Well of course that is cruel! But that is in no way comparable to keeping cats in a house?


----------



## Guest

suzy93074 said:


> I would NEVER take my cat to a cattery! There is only one person who can look after my cat - a friend of my OH's dont ask me why but Jinks loves him and he comes and sorts him out - stays and plays with him etc and I feel much more comfortable with that situ - If he cannot look after him then I would have to reassess my holiday plans


The cattery i took her too is actually her previous owner so i thought she would be able to wander round in her house etc and the office and stables etc like she used to do, i did not think she was going to treat her like the other cats, it was only when i got back that i realised that she did not do this. :nono:


----------



## Guest

noushka05 said:


> have to say great example of why the law is an ass:


Ain't that the truth!


----------



## suzy93074

DoubleTrouble said:


> A dog is not allowed onthe public highway if not under control! if it were alone it would not be under control!
> Also it is illegal for a dog to foul the pavement! and I ain't me one yet who picks up after itselF1


IMO if left unattended dogs could become far more excitable than cats and get themselves into more mischief too.


----------



## noushka05

DoubleTrouble said:


> Ain't that the truth!


sure is


----------



## suzy93074

KathrynH said:


> The cattery i took her too is actually her previous owner so i thought she would be able to wander round in her house etc and the office and stables etc like she used to do, i did not think she was going to treat her like the other cats, it was only when i got back that i realised that she did not do this. :nono:


Yes I would not trust they care for them the way I want them to.


----------



## Guest

Ren said:


> Well of course that is cruel! But that is in no way comparable to keeping cats in a house?


I do fear that if ever there were a law introduced to stop cats from roaming that would be where many would end up! Same as dogs inkennels - whichI am stronly against!

Anyway - back on track!


----------



## momentofmadness

DoubleTrouble said:


> I do fear that if ever there were a law introduced to stop cats from roaming that would be where many would end up! Same as dogs inkennels - whichI am stronly against!
> 
> Anyway - back on track!


Im sure a few years back they did try to bring into law that cats must be brought in at night time..


----------



## Amethyst

Personally my initial thoughts were based around the idea that why do we allow cats to roam freely when they are just as vulnerable as dogs out on the streets?

I've been honest ... I used to do it years ago at a time when to do the same with my dogs would have horrified me ... but I still let my cats out 

I did it because it was traditional to do so, I had never questioned it and because it was easier. Cats were occupied elsewhere, less smell from litter tray ( I never worried or even considered my cat was pooping in other peoples gardens!), I didn't have to make an effort to keep windows/doors closed ... and of course they liked it. It was the all round good thing to do.

But when I started getting calls most days about cats going missing, lying injured at side of roads ... I began to question myself.

Probably the epiphany for me was a little black cat.

I got a call from a taxi office, one of their drivers had hit a cat and it was injured at side of road ... It was nearby, I actually ran down with basket as I had no transport. The cat was unable to stand and yowling in pain, she also looked to have a broken leg. Wearing gloves, I manged to gently get her in basket. The taxi driver took me to our vet.

The vet confirmed her leg was broken, he could have sorted that,
but an x ray revealed a badly fractured spine. I stroked her as she was pts.

We never found the owner, I presume she had one as she was well cared for. Maybe they were frightened in case we presented them with vet bill? Who knows?

No doubt this little kitty enjoyed her freedom ... but it cost her her life.

I'll never forget that little girl and she became ultimately responsible for my cats becoming house pets.


----------



## gskinner123

DoubleTrouble said:


> A dog is not allowed onthe public highway if not under control! if it were alone it would not be under control!
> Also it is illegal for a dog to foul the pavement! and I ain't me one yet who picks up after itselF1


So basically speaking dogs aren't by law allowed to roam because, amongst other reasons, they'd pose a risk of causing rta's (and obviously being killed or injured themselves) and fouling public or private property.


----------



## Ren

DoubleTrouble said:


> I do fear that if ever there were a law introduced to stop cats from roaming that would be where many would end up! Same as dogs inkennels - whichI am stronly against!
> 
> Anyway - back on track!


Possibly the toms might that people refuse to get neutered and just let them roam the streets right now, but then if they were being mistreated by being kept in poor conditions it would be easier to get welfare societies involved to remove the cat and get it neutered and off to a responsible home? I personally don't think there will ever be a law introduced anyway so it's probably not worth speculating :


----------



## Guest

Amethyst said:


> Personally my initial thoughts were based around the idea that why do we allow cats to roam freely when they are just as vulnerable as dogs out on the streets?
> 
> I've been honest ... I used to do it years ago at a time when to do the same with my dogs would have horrified me ... but I still let my cats out
> 
> I did it because it was traditional to do so, I had never questioned it and because it was easier. Cats were occupied elsewhere, less smell from litter tray ( I never worried or even considered my cat was pooping in other peoples gardens!), I didn't have to make an effort to keep windows/doors closed ... and of course they liked it. It was the all round good thing to do.
> 
> But when I started getting calls most days about cats going missing, lying injured at side of roads ... I began to question myself.
> 
> Probably the epiphany for me was a little black cat.
> 
> I got a call from a taxi office, one of their drivers had hit a cat and it was injured at side of road ... It was nearby, I actually ran down with basket as I had no transport. The cat was unable to stand and yowling in pain, she also looked to have a broken leg. Wearing gloves, I manged to gently get her in basket. The taxi driver took me to our vet.
> 
> The vet confirmed her leg was broken, he could have sorted that,
> but an x ray revealed a badly fractured spine. I stroked her as she was pts.
> 
> We never found the owner, I presume she had one as she was well cared for. Maybe they were frightened in case we presented them with vet bill? Who knows?
> 
> No doubt this little kitty enjoyed her freedom ... but it cost her her life.
> 
> I'll never forget that little girl and she became ultimately responsible for my cats becoming house pets.


That is such a sad story, bless you i bet you were so upset i know i would of been. 

I have had a cat run over outside my house she was only young but with my cat i have now she is different, she hears a car and she is gone and as i said she will not wander far or even out of the street so i have assurance that it wont happen to her.


----------



## momentofmadness

gskinner123 said:


> So basically speaking dogs aren't by law allowed to roam because, amongst other reasons, they'd pose a risk of causing rta's (and obviously being killed or injured themselves) and fouling public or private property.


Pet owner fined £150 for letting dog roam | Manchester Evening News - menmedia.co.uk


----------



## Aurelia

momentofmadness said:


> My Rats.. In the evening get to roam around my living room.. And often in the day they get to run up and down the stairs..


Why don't you let your rats outside to roam freely like wild rats do? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?



momentofmadness said:


> The hamsters get the stairs or a room one by one..  Or go in their balls at he same time.. But I have had a couple escape from the balls so it isn't something I do often also the noise from them crashing into everything is horrendous..


Why don't you let your hamsters outside to roam freely like wild hamsters do? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?



momentofmadness said:


> When I had budgies My cage was open apart from when we ate in that room.. They were quite happy to sit on the window sill or on he curtains..


Why did you not let your budgies outside to fly freely like wild birds do? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?



momentofmadness said:


> My fish are in a tank.. TBO I would like to have a much bigger tank.. But Im afraid I haven't the room to keep a 6' tank..


Why do keep fish in a small tank when the same fish in the wild have limitless waters to swim in? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?



momentofmadness said:


> When we had the ducks.. They roamed the garden.. thinking they were dogs..


Did you clip their wings so they couldn't fly away? and if so, why?



momentofmadness said:


> When I had rabbits they were out virtually 24/7 through the warm months. They weren't made with big strong back legs to sit around in cages..


Why didn't you let your rabbits outside to roam freely like wild rabbits do? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?


----------



## Guest

momentofmadness said:


> Im sure a few years back they did try to bring into law that cats must be brought in at night time..


I do that anyway!

Also if it were introduced that cats were not allowed out can you imagine how many people would keep them in dog crates - like rabbits!

Which reminds me!
This stuck in my mind since 2005
Can you remember hurricankartina and the devastation New Orleans 
there was TV coverage of a woman that was saved at her house was totally emerged in water!
When she went back her two pedigree cats had not been so lucky! 
perhaps because they were in a crate!

Sorry again for going off track - and not really applicable I know!


----------



## Amethyst

Aurelia said:


> Why don't you let your rats outside to roam freely like wild rats do? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?
> 
> Why don't you let your hamsters outside to roam freely like wild hamsters do? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?
> 
> Why did you not let your budgies outside to fly freely like wild birds do? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?
> 
> Why do keep fish in a small tank when the same fish in the wild have limitless waters to swim in? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?
> 
> Did you clip their wings so they couldn't fly away? and if so, why?
> 
> Why didn't you let your rabbits outside to roam freely like wild rabbits do? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?


Interesting points


----------



## suzy93074

Well my answer to those would be that these animals are far less easier to tame than a cat or a dog who do come back to their owners.


----------



## gskinner123

momentofmadness said:


> Pet owner fined £150 for letting dog roam | Manchester Evening News - menmedia.co.uk


Jolly glad to read it too 

I was trying to get a handle on why dog owners don't allow their dogs out unaccompanied. I feel pretty certain that if you asked them for the top five reasons why they don't, 'to comply with the law' might feature somewhere. But I strongly suspect that if such laws didn't exist then most wouldn't allow their dogs to roam for the very *same* reasons as if it *did*.


----------



## Guest

Aurelia said:


> Why don't you let your rats outside to roam freely like wild rats do? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?
> 
> Why don't you let your hamsters outside to roam freely like wild hamsters do? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?
> 
> Why did you not let your budgies outside to fly freely like wild birds do? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?
> 
> Why do keep fish in a small tank when the same fish in the wild have limitless waters to swim in? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?
> 
> Did you clip their wings so they couldn't fly away? and if so, why?
> 
> Why didn't you let your rabbits outside to roam freely like wild rabbits do? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?


Probably because of everything you have highlighted EVERY single one of these would fall prey to their wild conterparts in a very very short time! 
Have you ever seen what happens when a budgie escapes and the wild birds get a hold of it!

What do you think would happen ifyou dropped your goldfish into the river!

Cats - certainly in the UK and not at risk by preditors anywhere near the the examples you have listed!

That was imv a silly comparison!


----------



## gskinner123

DoubleTrouble said:


> I do that anyway!
> 
> Also if it were introduced that cats were not allowed out can you imagine how many people would keep them in dog crates - like rabbits!


Blimey, do dog owners keep their dogs in crates then because the law says they're not allowed to be outside by themselves?


----------



## Chez87

Wow I signed off last night when this was at 12 pages! 38 pages!


----------



## noushka05

Aurelia said:


> Why don't you let your rats outside to roam freely like wild rats do? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?
> 
> Why don't you let your hamsters outside to roam freely like wild hamsters do? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?
> 
> Why did you not let your budgies outside to fly freely like wild birds do? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?
> 
> Why do keep fish in a small tank when the same fish in the wild have limitless waters to swim in? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?
> 
> Did you clip their wings so they couldn't fly away? and if so, why?
> 
> Why didn't you let your rabbits outside to roam freely like wild rabbits do? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?


exactly....seems cats are the only exception

and back to the law....theres no law that says i cant let my huskies run free, but my breed should never be allowed off lead unless its somewhere secure so i know the risks and i could never take em with my precious dogs, i take responsibility both for them and for the wildlife they would undoubtedly kill.


----------



## Ren

DoubleTrouble said:


> Probably because of everything you have highlighted EVERY single one of these would fall prey to their wild conterparts in a very very short time!
> Have you ever seen what happens when a budgie escapes and the wild birds get a hold of it!
> 
> What do you think would happen ifyou dropped your goldfish into the river!
> 
> Cats - certainly in the UK and not at risk by preditors anywhere near the the examples you have listed!
> 
> That was imv a silly comparison!


No sillier than the previous horse analogy though! :lol:


----------



## Amethyst

KathrynH said:


> That is such a sad story, bless you i bet you were so upset i know i would of been.
> 
> I have had a cat run over outside my house she was only young but with my cat i have now she is different, she hears a car and she is gone and as i said she will not wander far or even out of the street so i have assurance that it wont happen to her.


I was and that was the turning point for me regards letting my cats out. I was in tears, the taxi driver bless him was upset too as he was an animal lover, he even came back to vets and took me home 

I used to shake when we went out to see if we could help a RTA, you never knew what you would find, though maybe worse was when the cat had managed to run or crawl away after being hit ... you just had to hope they made it home and thier owners got them treated.

I do hope your cat stays safe.


----------



## Guest

gskinner123 said:


> Blimey, do dog owners keep their dogs in crates then because the law says they're not allowed to be outside by themselves?


I don't use a crate! but would suspect there are those out there that years ago would maybe have chucked their dogs out in the street when they left for work who would now crate their dog , or stick it in a kennel, garage or shed yes!
But there are many that use crates in a positive way!


----------



## Aurelia

KathrynH said:


> The cattery i took her too is actually her previous owner so i thought she would be able to wander round in her house etc and the office and stables etc like she used to do, i did not think she was going to treat her like the other cats, it was only when i got back that i realised that she did not do this. :nono:


I'm sorry but are you being serious?

If she had let your cat wander freely you would probably have never seen her again. You do know that right?


----------



## momentofmadness

Aurelia said:


> Why don't you let your rats outside to roam freely like wild rats do? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?
> 
> They wouldn't come back..And my rats would be very frieghtened outside.. And I know this from when I take them out whilst they are sat on my shoulder.. They suddenly shuffle into my hair or a hoody.
> 
> Why don't you let your hamsters outside to roam freely like wild hamsters do? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?
> 
> Im pretty sure we dont actually have wild hamsters over here. also if I let them all out they would kill each other.. I have syrians..
> 
> Why did you not let your budgies outside to fly freely like wild birds do? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?
> 
> One did and is probably dead.. as in this country other birds peck colourful to death..
> 
> Why do keep fish in a small tank when the same fish in the wild have limitless waters to swim in? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?
> My fish aren't in a small tank..  And I wouldn't have the fish if some careless idiot hadn't have left it i the tank my sister was buying
> 
> Did you clip their wings so they couldn't fly away? and if so, why?
> 
> Ducks, Aylesbury ducks seldom fly? And no.. No wings clipped they chose to stay in the garden.  My Aylesbury ducks were going to be Sunday dinner till we got them..
> 
> Why didn't you let your rabbits outside to roam freely like wild rabbits do? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?


Because they had enough room in the garden to stretch their legs.. and I say enough room in my opinion.. When I was a child we had hedgerow up the garden.. So if they really wanted they could venture into neighbours.. But they didn't.. they would much rather harass the cats steal my dads veggies he was growing and nibble the grass 

You see I do the best that I can by my pets.. And to me.. that means having them out as much as possible..

Like Ive said.. I dont think my house is big enough to keep a cat inside. 

Aurelia you forgot to ask about the horses and the dogs..


----------



## Guest

Ren said:


> No sillier than the previous horse analogy though! :lol:


I made it quiet clear that that was A JOKE though!
the poster of that comparison never!


----------



## noushka05

DoubleTrouble said:


> Probably because of everything you have highlighted EVERY single one of these would fall prey to their wild conterparts in a very very short time!
> Have you ever seen what happens when a budgie escapes and the wild birds get a hold of it!
> 
> What do you think would happen ifyou dropped your goldfish into the river!
> 
> Cats - certainly in the UK and not at risk by preditors anywhere near the the examples you have listed!
> 
> That was imv a silly comparison!


no actually they should never be released not just for their safety but because as 'alien' species when released they do sometimes thrive and when they dothey wreak havoc on ecosytems and habitats because they dont belong!

much like the cat!


----------



## gskinner123

DoubleTrouble said:


> I don't use a crate! but would suspect there are those out there that years ago would maybe have chucked their dogs out in the street when they left for work who would now crate their dog , or stick it in a kennel, garage or shed yes!
> But there are many that use crates in a positive way!


Really?! So would you say its common practice nowadays for dog owners to severely confine their dog at home... I mean whether the owner is at home or at work or something?


----------



## 2lisa2

my cat is an indoor cat my choice its got nothing to do with me what other people choose to do i havent got a problem with it as long as pets are loved an taken care of. i dont agree with cats being left out of a night though we have about 7 cats in are road that are out day an night i know beacaue they use my front garden as a litter tray  we have a school in the road si its busy at times an at the back of the school their wood were foxes live an a few cats have been found dead in the woods so i cant understand why their left out plus the noise sometimes of a night is awfull


----------



## Guest

Aurelia said:


> I'm sorry but are you being serious?
> 
> If she had let your cat wander freely you would probably have never seen her again. You do know that right?


umm no as she was the cats previous owner and i had only had her for a few weeks anyway, she knew the lady who lives on a farm and has a cat rescue within the farm etc.

The cat would only sit in her office on her desk, around the stables or in her house, she had lived there for a few years so there was not much chance of her going anywhere but the farm surroundings.


----------



## Aurelia

DoubleTrouble said:


> Probably because of everything you have highlighted EVERY single one of these would fall prey to their wild conterparts in a very very short time!
> Have you ever seen what happens when a budgie escapes and the wild birds get a hold of it!
> 
> What do you think would happen ifyou dropped your goldfish into the river!
> 
> Cats - certainly in the UK and not at risk by preditors anywhere near the the examples you have listed!
> 
> That was imv a silly comparison!


Cats are predated by a few animals in the UK DT, so it's not that silly IMO.

Yes I have seen what happens to budgies in the wild. The same as I have seen what happens to other wild birds when they are predated by birds of prey!

Animals and birds that are a risk to cats...

Foxes
Other cats
Eagles 
magpies
Owls
Dogs
Other animals carrying disease

I can guarentee a lot of the cats that die at the hands of such animals and birds are rarely heard about too. The reasons for this are upsetting but obvious.


----------



## suzy93074

noushka05 said:


> no actually they should never be released not just for their safety but because as 'alien' species when released they do sometimes thrive and when they dothey wreak havoc on ecosytems and habitats because they dont belong!
> 
> much like the cat!


But dont wildlife eat/destroy other wildlife? is'nt that also wreaking havoc on habitats etc??


----------



## Ren

suzy93074 said:


> But dont wildlife eat other wildlife? is'nt that also wreaking havoc on habitats etc??


They are a part of the natural ecosystem that has evolved to be sustainable for each species. They are very fragile systems which are easily upset which is why we should be more careful with non native species and PETS that we release into it! :nono:


----------



## Amethyst

KathrynH said:


> umm no as she was the cats previous owner and i had only had her for a few weeks anyway, she knew the lady who lives on a farm and has a cat rescue within the farm etc.
> 
> The cat would only sit in her office on her desk, around the stables or in her house, she had lived there for a few years so there was not much chance of her going anywhere but the farm surroundings.


I guess you have to ask yourself how you would have felt if your cat HAD been allowed to roam and you had returned to find your cat had gone missing?

I think the cattery lady did the right thing


----------



## Guest

gskinner123 said:


> Really?! So would you say its common practice nowadays for dog owners to severely confine their dog at home... I mean whether the owner is at home or at work or something?


I would like to say NOT! but I do genuinely believe that since in has been an offence to let dogs roam coupled with the introdcution of the dog wardens I do believe that there are those amongst us who do cage/restrict their dogs yes! And I do find this disturbing! I have taken two rescue dogs out that were kept in shocking conditions! these people are probably those that would have opened their door and let the dog out forty years or so ago!

I am NOT for one moment suggesting this is the norm! and there will always be those that abuse their pets by not providing correct housing! Whether the laws re roaming have had anything to do with this I honestly cannot say! it is purely an assumption!


----------



## momentofmadness

noushka05 said:


> exactly....seems cats are the only exception
> 
> and back to the law....theres no law that says i cant let my huskies run free, but my breed should never be allowed off lead unless its somewhere secure so i know the risks and i could never take em with my precious dogs, i take responsibility both for them and for the wildlife they would undoubtedly kill.


Actually This is what I put about cats.. 

And it seems it wasn't quoted..

My cats I let out.. I don't think I have enough room in my house to let one have the room they need.. Cats like to jump run and chase things..


----------



## Guest

Amethyst said:


> I guess you have to ask yourself how you would have felt if your cat HAD been allowed to roam and you had returned to find your cat had gone missing?
> 
> I think the cattery lady did the right thing


Yes i can understand that too, but she loved sasha soo much so i am sure she felt she was doing the right thing for her, i have never come across catteries before so was really naive to how they work you know, and because of the previous history etc though she may be allowed out of the pen etc as knew all her dogs and all the farm animals etc. I thought it would of been like home from home you know?

Just me being naive don't worry.


----------



## Cleo38

Amethyst said:


> I thought your points were very valid, though I'm not a cat owner at moment, but had 5 at one time
> 
> Where we live there are several lovely young cats that I see regularly, all seem well fed and happy, they will run up to you for a fuss. I have thought how easy it would be to pick them up and walk away with them ... if I was inclined
> 
> Another member's post, Ren, makes me ponder if thier owners would allow them out onto the streets if they were pedigrees? If they had paid hundreds for them? Maybe they think because they are moggies, nobody will touch them ... or maybe they don't think about it at all


I wouldn't treat a pedigree cat any differently but probably wouldn't ever have one mainly because all my animals are from local rescue centres.

I think about my animals welfare every single day, regarding what is best for them not what's best for me. I would much rather keep them in but that would be ignoring the fact that they want to go out now & seem to be enjoying exploring the garden.

They were happy being indoor previously & didn't show any interest in going out but they are now so I do my best to keep them safe but I really don't believe that safety should be the main consideration all the time - quality of life is.

I'm sure every owner on here has their pets best interests at heart & if their cat is happy being indoor/outdoor then they are obviously doing a good job.


----------



## suzy93074

Ren said:


> They are a part of the natural ecosystem that has evolved to be sustainable for each species. They are very fragile systems which are easily upset which is why we should be more careful with non native species and PETS that we release into it! :nono:


Yes and I do the best I can by limiting my cat to not being out at night - and deter him from chasing any wildlife if I see him - ultimately for me my pet has to come first and he is USED to going outside now imo it would be now cruel to keep him in.


----------



## Ren

suzy93074 said:


> Yes and I do the best I can by limiting my cat to not being out at night - and deter him from chasing any wildlife if I see him - ultimately for me my pet has to come first and he is USED to going outside now imo it would be now cruel to keep him in.


I don't think you are doing anything wrong and I wasn't attacking you!  I was just answering your question about why predation is different when it is within a native ecosystem. :001_smile:


----------



## noushka05

suzy93074 said:


> But dont wildlife eat/destroy other wildlife? is'nt that also wreaking havoc on habitats etc??


no its not the same at all....when indiginous predators kill indiginous prey this isnt wreaking havoc this is the natural order of things it keeps everything in balance....but bring in a cat (who dosent belong to ANY ecosystem anywhere in the world), than you upset the balance and it puts pressure on both native predator and prey species.

i mean this really speaks for itself dosent it....Researchers hold cats responsible for more bird species extinctions worldwide than any other cause except habitat destruction.


----------



## gskinner123

DoubleTrouble said:


> I would like to say NOT! but I do genuinely believe that since in has been an offence to let dogs roam coupled with the introdcution of the dog wardens I do believe that there are those amongst us who do cage/restrict their dogs yes! And I do find this disturbing! I have taken two rescue dogs out that were kept in shocking conditions! these people are probably those that would have opened their door and let the dog out forty years or so ago!
> 
> I am NOT for one moment suggesting this is the norm! and there will always be those that abuse their pets by not providing correct housing! Whether the laws re roaming have had anything to do with this I honestly cannot say! it is purely an assumption!


Ah okay, its not the norm and it was your assumption that it *might* be as a result of the law that says a dog can't be out by itself.

So is it safe to assume then that if the same laws were introduced for cats that it wouldn't be the norm for their owners to keep them in crates indoors instead?

You had me thinking I needed go have a serious word with all the folk in the dog section who all keep their dogs crated/somehow cooped up just because there's a law that says can't go a'wandering


----------



## Guest

gskinner123 said:


> Ah okay, its not the norm and it was your assumption that it *might* be as a result of the law that says a dog can't be out by itself.
> 
> So is it safe to assume then that if the same laws were introduced for cats that it wouldn't be the norm for their owners to keep them in crates indoors instead?
> 
> You had me thinking I needed go have a serious word with all the folk in the dog section who all keep their dogs crated/somehow cooped up just because there's a law that says can't go a'wandering


My dogs have the utter freedon of the house! as does my cat, they also have the pleasure of a decent size garden, and they are also walked!

Not all dogs share the luxuries mine do! and I do honestly believe that if ever there was a law introduced to stop cats from roaming that WE COLUD be in danger of seeing SOME cats housed in rabbit hutch like conditions!

Again -I add that is only a fear!


----------



## momentofmadness

gskinner123 said:


> Ah okay, its not the norm and it was your assumption that it *might* be as a result of the law that says a dog can't be out by itself.
> 
> So is it safe to assume then that if the same laws were introduced for cats that it wouldn't be the norm for their owners to keep them in crates indoors instead?
> 
> You had me thinking I needed go have a serious word with all the folk in the dog section who all keep their dogs crated/somehow cooped up just because there's a law that says can't go a'wandering


TBO I think many dogs are locked in crates or in one room all day without any sort of human contact or stimulation.. But that is what happens.. And I doubt it is because they can't roam..

Was chatting with my neighbour the other day.. she was on about her JRT. Passed on now. But she said that used to sit on her front step all day every day..


----------



## Guest

momentofmadness said:


> TBO I think many dogs are locked in crates or in one room all day without any sort of human contact or stimulation.. But that is what happens.. And I doubt it is because they can't roam..
> 
> Was chatting with my neighbour the other day.. she was on about her JRT. Passed on now. But she said that used to sit on her front step all day every day..


I do believe that if there were no rules regarding roaming and no dog wardens then some of those dogs would be allowed to roam! Afterall¬ it is easier


----------



## noushka05

momentofmadness said:


> Actually This is what I put about cats..
> 
> And it seems it wasn't quoted..
> 
> My cats I let out.. I don't think I have enough room in my house to let one have the room they need.. Cats like to jump run and chase things..


oh okay

i agree they do need space..and this is only my opinion, but as i said before if i couldnt keep a cat happy by keeping it secure i personally couldnt get one 1 because of my worrying nature and 2 my passionate views on conservation... if i got one i would love to secure my garden for it, ive seen a great thread on here about it, then it could have space to run around


----------



## suzy93074

Ren said:


> I don't think you are doing anything wrong and I wasn't attacking you!  I was just answering your question about why predation is different when it is within a native ecosystem. :001_smile:


No I know you not attacking me just discussing  - I DO see what you are saying 



noushka05 said:


> no its not the same at all....when indiginous predators kill indiginous prey this isnt wreaking havoc this is the natural order of things it keeps everything in balance....but bring in a cat (who dosent belong to ANY ecosystem anywhere in the world), than you upset the balance and it puts pressure on both native predator and prey species.
> 
> i mean this really speaks for itself dosent it....Researchers hold cats responsible for more bird species extinctions worldwide than any other cause except habitat destruction.


Yes I see that but when cats hunt is that not their natural order? their natural instinct? take an indoor cat who has never been outside - if you get a play mouse for it to play with it will "automatically" go into hunt mode.....im not condoning letting cats catch wild-life but I do think they do it out of instinct they are not doing it because they dislike the mouse


----------



## gskinner123

DoubleTrouble said:


> I do honestly believe that if ever there was a law introduced to stop cats from roaming that WE COLUD be in danger of seeing SOME cats housed in rabbit hutch like conditions!
> 
> Again -I add that is only a fear!


DT, you got me stumped on this!

If most dog owners don't crate/kennel their dogs indoors purely because there's a law which says they aren't allowed outside unaccompanied, what leads you fear that some cat owners would do so?

I don't own a dog but have in the past but I honestly can't imagine ANY situation that would give rise to me crating/confining in some way a dog I'd owned PURELY because the law says I can't let it out unaccompanied. And why would it be any different for cat owners?


----------



## gladass

Aurelia you forgot to ask about the horses and the dogs.. 


Maybe because she was asking questions based on the info you put on your post re your animals and no dogs or horses was mentioned by you


----------



## Aurelia

> Originally Posted by *momentofmadness*
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Aurelia*
> 
> Why don't you let your rats outside to roam freely like wild rats do? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?
> 
> They wouldn't come back..And my rats would be very frieghtened outside.. And I know this from when I take them out whilst they are sat on my shoulder.. They suddenly shuffle into my hair or a hoody.
Click to expand...

I have wild rats that come daily to feed on the seed dropped by the birds around the feeders. So I'm pretty confident any rat will do so if push came to shove. I'm also confident that if a rat were released slowly it would always come back (the same way cats do). The other reasons for not letting them roam is presumably because they might predated, or ran over, or shot or poisoned?



> Originally Posted by *momentofmadness*
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Aurelia*
> Why don't you let your hamsters outside to roam freely like wild hamsters do? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?
> 
> Im pretty sure we dont actually have wild hamsters over here. also if I let them all out they would kill each other.. I have syrians..
Click to expand...

We might not have hamsters wild in this country, but we do have other wild rodents that are similar, so it's not too far fetched a thought ...

I'm also confident that if a hamster were released slowly it would always come back (the same way cats do). The other reasons for not letting them roam is presumably because they might predated, or ran over, or shot or poisoned?



> Originally Posted by *momentofmadness*
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Aurelia*
> Why did you not let your budgies outside to fly freely like wild birds do? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?
> 
> One did and is probably dead.. as in this country other birds peck colourful to death..
Click to expand...

Aye they do! Though the colourful ring necked parakeet has managed to established itself in parts of the country.

I have wild birds that come daily to feed on the seed we provide in the feeders. I'm confident that if a bird were released slowly it would always come back (the same way cats do). The other reasons for not letting them roam is presumably because they might predated, or ran over, or shot or poisoned?



> Originally Posted by *momentofmadness*
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Aurelia*
> Why do keep fish in a small tank when the same fish in the wild have limitless waters to swim in? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?
> 
> My fish aren't in a small tank.. And I wouldn't have the fish if some careless idiot hadn't have left it i the tank my sister was buying
Click to expand...

In comparison to being in a lake or a sea I think it's safe to assume they are kept in a small tank 

We don't have a river here so I can't compare in the same way as the others, but if we did I'm pretty sure they would come to be fed every day, like fish in a pond do!



> Originally Posted by *momentofmadness*
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Aurelia*
> Did you clip their wings so they couldn't fly away? and if so, why?
> 
> Ducks, Aylesbury ducks seldom fly? And no.. No wings clipped they chose to stay in the garden. My Aylesbury ducks were going to be Sunday dinner till we got them..
Click to expand...

I wasn't aware of the breed of duck you have... but noe the less ...

I have wild ducks that come daily to feed on the seed dropped by the birds around the feeders. I'm confident that if a duck were released slowly it would always come back (the same way cats do). The other reasons for not letting them roam is presumably because they might predated, or ran over, or shot or poisoned?



> Originally Posted by *momentofmadness*
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Aurelia*
> Why didn't you let your rabbits outside to roam freely like wild rabbits do? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?
> 
> 
> 
> Because they had enough room in the garden to stretch their legs.. and I say enough room in my opinion.. When I was a child we had hedgerow up the garden.. So if they really wanted they could venture into neighbours.. But they didn't.. they would much rather harass the cats steal my dads veggies he was growing and nibble the grass
Click to expand...

But Rabbits in nature have miles and miles of free land to roam, in comparison your garden will be tiny.

I have wild rabbits that come daily to feed on the seed dropped by the birds around the feeders, and the weeds we leave to grow for them o honestly that's the reason :lol. I'm confident that if a rabbit were released slowly it would always come back (the same way cats do). The other reasons for not letting them roam is presumably because they might predated, or ran over, or shot or poisoned?



> Originally Posted by*momentofmadness*
> 
> You see I do the best that I can by my pets.. And to me.. that means having them out as much as possible..
> 
> Like Ive said.. I don't think my house is big enough to keep a cat inside.
> 
> Aurelia you forgot to ask about the horses and the dogs..


I didn't forget about the horses and dogs, I just thought I would put a different spin on things 

*Bugger that took some work getting the quotes right!*


----------



## momentofmadness

DoubleTrouble said:


> I do believe that if there were no rules regarding roaming and no dog wardens then some of those dogs would be allowed to roam! Afterall¬ it is easier


Yep I agree with this.. I think when I was a kid.. many dogs did roam.. thats how we ended up with benji.. :lol: he used to follow me everywhere.. to the point his owner came and seen me mum and said if we want him he is ours. 
She said yes.. end of his roaming days.. 
Also gskinner123 we used to have a very big GSd when I was a kid.. As he got older he grew huge. My mum said it was tight to keep him in the house whilst she was at work and we were at school so she carpeted a shed and made him a door etc he had an old chair in their etc.. so it was nice and comfy and he had access to the garden.. Some git poisoned 5 dogs.. along our row.. he was one of them..  he survived and my mum decided in the interest of Major she offered him to the police.. (we had always attended training, run by a police dog handler) She said it be cruel for him to be locked in the house.. Anyway they snapped him up and measured him.. he still had apprx 2 inches to grow.. and at the time of measuring he was already the biggest GSD in the Northwest..  He would stand up and look over our 6' fence..at 10 months old  stood up on hind legs he was well over 6' .. He served his time we had regular visits from him.. and Im very proud of him.. and although I was heart broken at the time.. I believe my mum did was was best for that dog.. 

So in the interest of the best welfare of the dog.. she decided it was best to let him go..

And I think that many dont agree with each others ideas on what is best.. But this does not mean that we dont all have the best interest (in our ideas) at heart..


----------



## noushka05

suzy93074 said:


> No I know you not attacking me just discussing  - I DO see what you are saying
> 
> Yes I see that but when cats hunt is that not their natural order? their natural instinct? take an indoor cat who has never been outside - if you get a play mouse for it to play with it will "automatically" go into hunt mode.....im not condoning letting cats catch wild-life but I do think they do it out of instinct they are not doing it because they dislike the mouse


no its not theyre a domesticated species the term 'natural order' goes hand in hand with nature they can never be part of natural world....of course they are still instinctive hunters but this dosent mean they should be allowed to do so, especially not when we know the damage they cause to native wildlife.


----------



## Guest

gskinner123 said:


> DT, you got me stumped on this!
> 
> If most dog owners don't crate/kennel their dogs indoors purely because there's a law which says they aren't allowed outside unaccompanied, what leads you fear that some cat owners would do so?
> 
> I don't own a dog but have in the past but I honestly can't imagine ANY situation that would give rise to me crating/confining in some way a dog I'd owned PURELY because the law says I can't let it out unaccompanied. And why would it be any different for cat owners?


Maybe I have managed to confuse you! I do add - that is an easy task for me! I could confuse a saint!

I shall attempt to make myself clear!

I seriously DO think that in our country today that there are many many dogs that are kept in conditions that people like yourself and I would find appalling! This may be under the stairs (yep!! there wa a weimy in rescue that had lived its whole life in a cupboard under the stairs) In a garage (yep another rescue) In garden sheds, in small pens in dog kennels - basically in horrific conditions! THIS IS NOT RIGHT!! I think SOME (only some of these people) would 40 years ago have let these dogs wander! but due to the financial penelties they are unable to do so now!
NEITHER of these are right - the wandering or the keeping in poor conditions! AND I think that is cats were ever bound by roaming laws then they too would be caged by many!

Is that clear


----------



## momentofmadness

Aurelia said:


> I have wild rats that come daily to feed on the seed dropped by the birds around the feeders. So I'm pretty confident any rat will do so if push came to shove. I'm also confident that if a rat were released slowly it would always come back (the same way cats do). The other reasons for not letting them roam is presumably because they might predated, or ran over, or shot or poisoned?
> 
> We might not have hamsters wild in this country, but we do have other wild rodents that are similar, so it's not too far fetched a thought ...
> 
> I'm also confident that if a hamster were released slowly it would always come back (the same way cats do). The other reasons for not letting them roam is presumably because they might predated, or ran over, or shot or poisoned?
> 
> Aye they do! Though the colourful ring necked parakeet has managed to established itself in parts of the country.
> 
> I have wild birds that come daily to feed on the seed we provide in the feeders. I'm confident that if a bird were released slowly it would always come back (the same way cats do). The other reasons for not letting them roam is presumably because they might predated, or ran over, or shot or poisoned?
> 
> In comparison to being in a lake or a sea I think it's safe to assume they are kept in a small tank
> 
> We don't have a river here so I can't compare in the same way as the others, but if we did I'm pretty sure they would come to be fed every day, like fish in a pond do!
> 
> I wasn't aware of the breed of duck you have... but noe the less ...
> 
> I have wild ducks that come daily to feed on the seed dropped by the birds around the feeders. I'm confident that if a duck were released slowly it would always come back (the same way cats do). The other reasons for not letting them roam is presumably because they might predated, or ran over, or shot or poisoned?
> 
> But Rabbits in nature have miles and miles of free land to roam, in comparison your garden will be tiny.
> 
> I have wild rabbits that come daily to feed on the seed dropped by the birds around the feeders, and the weeds we leave to grow for them o honestly that's the reason :lol. I'm confident that if a rabbit were released slowly it would always come back (the same way cats do). The other reasons for not letting them roam is presumably because they might predated, or ran over, or shot or poisoned?
> 
> I didn't forget about the horses and dogs, I just thought I would put a different spin on things
> 
> **Bugger that took some work getting the quotes right!**


ROFL.. well it did me.. and we were many pages past by the time I got there.. :lol:

Ok now.. would you like to experiment?? Cause I am not willing to risk..

And may I add.. I dont think people are wrong or right regarding letting their pets out.. Its up to them at the end of the day..

I have previously stated.. i wont have cats cause I don have enough room in my house.. 
If I had cats.. My rodents would suffer.. 
And in my opinion that would be grossly unfair on the guys I have here already.. Which reminds me.. Im going to see if the mice I may be getting are ready yet.. Im still undecided..


----------



## noushka05

momentofmadness said:


> ROFL.. well it did me.. and we were many pages past by the time I got there.. :lol:
> 
> Ok now.. would you like to experiment?? Cause I am not willing to risk..
> 
> And may I add.. I dont think people are wrong or right regarding letting their pets out.. Its up to them at the end of the day..
> 
> I have previously stated.. i wont have cats cause I don have enough room in my house..
> If I had cats.. My rodents would suffer..
> And in my opinion that would be grossly unfair on the guys I have here already.. Which reminds me.. Im going to see if the mice I may be getting are ready yet.. Im still undecided..


ohh get them! i love meeces


----------



## momentofmadness

noushka05 said:


> ohh get them! i love meeces


Noush.. My tank is here all cleaned and ready.. But I have something holding me back.. partly the stress and how upset I was when Lisa passed.. I mean .. One part says its too soon.. another part says I need them as the extra company in my bedroom.. Im so torn..

I blubbed al day over Lisa.. :cryin: And it makes me want to blub now..


----------



## noushka05

momentofmadness said:


> Noush.. My tank is here all cleaned and ready.. But I have something holding me back.. partly the stress and how upset I was when Lisa passed.. I mean .. One part says its too soon.. another part says I need them as the extra company in my bedroom.. Im so torn..
> 
> I blubbed al day over Lisa.. :cryin: And it makes me want to blub now..


aw i am sorry about lil Lisa (((hugs))))...but i think getting more will give you something nice to think about and to care for xxx


----------



## gskinner123

DoubleTrouble said:


> I think that is cats were ever bound by roaming laws then they too would be caged by many!
> 
> Is that clear


Perfectly, thank you.

But I think you're talking a loads of cods about the cats being crated part


----------



## momentofmadness

> Originally Posted by *momentofmadness*
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Aurelia*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *momentofmadness*
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Aurelia*
> Why do keep fish in a small tank when the same fish in the wild have limitless waters to swim in? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?
> 
> My fish aren't in a small tank.. And I wouldn't have the fish if some careless idiot hadn't have left it i the tank my sister was buying
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In comparison to being in a lake or a sea I think it's safe to assume they are kept in a small tank
> 
> We don't have a river here so I can't compare in the same way as the others, but if we did I'm pretty sure they would come to be fed every day, like fish in a pond do!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *momentofmadness*
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Aurelia*
> Did you clip their wings so they couldn't fly away? and if so, why?
> 
> Ducks, Aylesbury ducks seldom fly? And no.. No wings clipped they chose to stay in the garden. My Aylesbury ducks were going to be Sunday dinner till we got them..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I wasn't aware of the breed of duck you have... but noe the less ...
> 
> I have wild ducks that come daily to feed on the seed dropped by the birds around the feeders. I'm confident that if a duck were released slowly it would always come back (the same way cats do). The other reasons for not letting them roam is presumably because they might predated, or ran over, or shot or poisoned?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *momentofmadness*
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Aurelia*
> Why didn't you let your rabbits outside to roam freely like wild rabbits do? It's their natural instinct to do so, so why do you not allow it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Because they had enough room in the garden to stretch their legs.. and I say enough room in my opinion.. When I was a child we had hedgerow up the garden.. So if they really wanted they could venture into neighbours.. But they didn't.. they would much rather harass the cats steal my dads veggies he was growing and nibble the grass
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But Rabbits in nature have miles and miles of free land to roam, in comparison your garden will be tiny.
> 
> I have wild rabbits that come daily to feed on the seed dropped by the birds around the feeders, and the weeds we leave to grow for them o honestly that's the reason :lol. I'm confident that if a rabbit were released slowly it would always come back (the same way cats do). The other reasons for not letting them roam is presumably because they might predated, or ran over, or shot or poisoned?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by*momentofmadness*
> 
> You see I do the best that I can by my pets.. And to me.. that means having them out as much as possible..
> 
> Like Ive said.. I don't think my house is big enough to keep a cat inside.
> 
> Aurelia you forgot to ask about the horses and the dogs..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I didn't forget about the horses and dogs, I just thought I would put a different spin on things
> 
> *Bugger that took some work getting the quotes right!*
> 
> Gawd I hope I quoted this right.. :lol:
> 
> My fish.. Aurelia are not brittish and I have a very angry fish.. and he doesn't socialise.. if we popped Rocky into the canal or a pond.. He would kill everything..  He goes for your hands or anything that dares to bob into that tank.. apart.. from the 3 tiny fish I have left in there.. That manage to hide from Rocky..
> 
> The ducks could of got off.. no wings clipping on my guys.. Infact the way he used to chase me round our garden I sometimes wish he would of..  But he new which side his bread was buttered on.. My bloody mum used to let him into the dogs room and sit on their sofa..
> 
> The rabbits as I said.. we had hedging down the side of our garden.. they could of got off .. obviously my dads home grown veges were too valuable to them to leave..  And the fact they enjoyed humping the cats..  I knew you would like that bit.. Old beau tried to hump my leg too when I was about five.. I wouldn't let him so he bit me..
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Guest

gskinner123 said:


> Perfectly, thank you.
> 
> But I think you're talking a loads of cods about the cats being crated part


I even think there will be some sad folk that would keep em in rabbit hutch style caging! perhaps my imagination is a bit too scary! but their is no accounting nor reasoning for what some folk will do - which I am sure if you are involved with rescue you would have to agree!


----------



## momentofmadness

Well I think I am going to see if the meeces are ready.. and have a cuddle and an ogle. then probably come away without them as I am still undecided.. 
I said I wouldn't get them again.. Please.. someone talk some sense into me.. I know off topic. but we seemed to have covered every other animal..


----------



## Guest

momentofmadness said:


> Well I think I am going to see if the meeces are ready.. and have a cuddle and an ogle. then probably come away without them as I am still undecided..
> I said I wouldn't get them again.. Please.. someone talk some sense into me.. I know off topic. but we seemed to have covered every other animal..


well I,m off to stir my cauldron


----------



## momentofmadness

DoubleTrouble said:


> well I,m off to stir my cauldron


ROFL..What colour is Billy.. is he black by any chance.. :yikes: :lol:


----------



## Aurelia

momentofmadness said:


> ROFL.. well it did me.. and we were many pages past by the time I got there.. :lol:
> 
> Ok now.. would you like to experiment?? Cause I am not willing to risk..
> 
> And may I add.. I dont think people are wrong or right regarding letting their pets out.. Its up to them at the end of the day..
> 
> I have previously stated.. i wont have cats cause I don have enough room in my house..
> If I had cats.. My rodents would suffer..
> And in my opinion that would be grossly unfair on the guys I have here already.. Which reminds me.. Im going to see if the mice I may be getting are ready yet.. Im still undecided..


:lol:

I think the fact that you have made the decision not to have cats because you don't have the room is the right one  No flames there!

I used your posts to demonstrate that the reasons a lot of people are giving for not keeping their cats in could be applied to every domestic animal really.

I am actually really struggling to see why people aren't understanding this? 

In an attempt to keep things nice and calm in this excellent debate thread  I would like to inject a bit of cuteness 

Here are my really bored kitties that lead an unfulfilled life ... not! 

[youtube_browser]ih5WPC6xfUw?hd=1[/youtube_browser]

It's Itty and Tinks (two kitties furthest right) 1st birthday today  The vid was taken just a short time ago, and I'm out of breath a bit, sorry about that.


----------



## KirstyLouise

I dont wouldnt want to keep my cats indoors at the moment i have to yeah as they are too young to be outside but when old enough i will allow them outside and the point about dogs you cant allow dogs to roam free because they would be dangerous.


----------



## suzy93074

Aurelia said:


> :lol:
> 
> I think the fact that you have made the decision not to have cats because you don't have the room is the right one  No flames there!
> 
> I used your posts to demonstrate that the reasons a lot of people are giving for not keeping their cats in could be applied to every domestic animal really.
> 
> I am actually really struggling to see why people aren't understanding this?
> 
> In an attempt to keep things nice and calm in this excellent debate thread  I would like to inject a bit of cuteness
> 
> Here are my really bored kitties that lead an unfulfilled life ... not!
> 
> [youtube_browser]ih5WPC6xfUw?hd=1[/youtube_browser]
> 
> It's Itty and Tinks (two kitties furthest right) 1st birthday today  The vid was taken just a short time ago, and I'm out of breath a bit, sorry about that.


FAB video!! love your animals  I would like to just add that I personally have never said that indoor cats have an unfulfilled life or get bored


----------



## Cleo38

suzy93074 said:


> FAB video!! love your animals  I would like to just add that I personally have never said that indoor cats have an unfulfilled life or get bored


Me neither but I am getting a bit annoyed that because I am now choosing to let my cats out it is infered that I am compromising their safety & don't understand the dangers - I do.

There is a risk to everything & although as I said I am minimising these (no busy road, no being let out at night, rural area, no neighbours, big garden) there will be a risk. There is a risk when I let my dogs off their leads - I try to minimise this by training their recall as best I can, practising with long lines, treats, toys, notletting them off near roads, etc but no animal is 100% reliable so there is a risk that they will ignore me & b*gger off! And have done!

I choose to accept these risks now. There was a time when I constantly worried about 'what could happen' but this was not benefitting me or my animals.

Some people would argue that it's not safe to let my dogs have free reign of the house & garden when I am not there & they should be crated. I disagree - I feel that it is better for them to be able lay where they want, play when they want, chase each other round for a bit if they want. This is my choice & I am making that choice with their best interests at heart


----------



## classixuk

Aurelia said:


> I have wild rats that come daily to feed on the seed dropped by the birds around the feeders. So I'm pretty confident any rat will do so if push came to shove. I'm also confident that if a rat were released slowly it would always come back (the same way cats do). The other reasons for not letting them roam is presumably because they might predated, or ran over, or shot or poisoned?
> 
> We might not have hamsters wild in this country, but we do have other wild rodents that are similar, so it's not too far fetched a thought ...
> 
> I'm also confident that if a hamster were released slowly it would always come back (the same way cats do). The other reasons for not letting them roam is presumably because they might predated, or ran over, or shot or poisoned?
> 
> Aye they do! Though the colourful ring necked parakeet has managed to established itself in parts of the country.
> 
> I have wild birds that come daily to feed on the seed we provide in the feeders. I'm confident that if a bird were released slowly it would always come back (the same way cats do). The other reasons for not letting them roam is presumably because they might predated, or ran over, or shot or poisoned?
> 
> In comparison to being in a lake or a sea I think it's safe to assume they are kept in a small tank
> 
> We don't have a river here so I can't compare in the same way as the others, but if we did I'm pretty sure they would come to be fed every day, like fish in a pond do!
> 
> I wasn't aware of the breed of duck you have... but noe the less ...
> 
> I have wild ducks that come daily to feed on the seed dropped by the birds around the feeders. I'm confident that if a duck were released slowly it would always come back (the same way cats do). The other reasons for not letting them roam is presumably because they might predated, or ran over, or shot or poisoned?
> 
> But Rabbits in nature have miles and miles of free land to roam, in comparison your garden will be tiny.
> 
> I have wild rabbits that come daily to feed on the seed dropped by the birds around the feeders, and the weeds we leave to grow for them o honestly that's the reason :lol. I'm confident that if a rabbit were released slowly it would always come back (the same way cats do). The other reasons for not letting them roam is presumably because they might predated, or ran over, or shot or poisoned?
> 
> I didn't forget about the horses and dogs, I just thought I would put a different spin on things
> 
> *Bugger that took some work getting the quotes right!*


Let me guess....you're single, right? 

I have to say, from reading all of the posts in this thread, I am suddenly damn appreciative of the area where I live. Some of the dangers in your neighbourhoods...it sounds like Kosovo! No wonder you spend most of your lives in this forum everyday. I would to if I lived in an area like that.

Round here, it seems like everyone lets their cats out. Cats are the choice pets in my local area. Dogs aren't so common, and you hardly ever hear dogs barking. Maybe that's why people feel so confident letting their cats out to roam the gardens?


----------



## Aurelia

Cleo38 said:


> *Me neither but I am getting a bit annoyed that because I am now choosing to let my cats out it is infered that I am compromising their safety & don't understand the dangers - I do.*
> 
> There is a risk to everything & although as I said I am minimising these (no busy road, no being let out at night, rural area, no neighbours, big garden) there will be a risk. There is a risk when I let my dogs off their leads - I try to minimise this by training their recall as best I can, practising with long lines, treats, toys, notletting them off near roads, etc but no animal is 100% reliable so there is a risk that they will ignore me & b*gger off! And have done!
> 
> I choose to accept these risks now. There was a time when I constantly worried about 'what could happen' but this was not benefitting me or my animals.
> 
> Some people would argue that it's not safe to let my dogs have free reign of the house & garden when I am not there & they should be crated. I disagree - I feel that it is better for them to be able lay where they want, play when they want, chase each other round for a bit if they want. This is my choice & I am making that choice with their best interests at heart


I said that a bit tongue in cheek, but also because of comments like this ...



Cleo38 said:


> They were happy being indoor previously & didn't show any interest in going out but they are now so I do my best to keep them safe but I really don't believe that safety should be the main consideration all the time - *quality of life is.*


 It indeed works both ways!


----------



## gskinner123

classixuk said:


> Let me guess....you're single, right?
> 
> I have to say, from reading all of the posts in this thread, I am suddenly damn appreciative of the area where I live. Some of the dangers in your neighbourhoods...it sounds like Kosovo! No wonder you spend most of your lives in this forum everyday. I would to if I lived in an area like that.
> 
> Round here, it seems like everyone lets their cats out. Cats are the choice pets in my local area. Dogs aren't so common, and you hardly ever hear dogs barking. Maybe that's why people feel so confident letting their cats out to roam the gardens?


Poor Aurelia  I guess she must be single, with only those rats, birds, cats, dog, etc for company. Yes, I too find that most people who care for their animals welfare are sad, single old sacks and are usually women. Shame.

No-one lets their cats out around here. In three years I've seen one but haven;t seen him for ages; maybe his owners moved away or he was run over. The village is mostly built along a busy road, guess that's why you rarely see a cat. They're all indoors or have an enclosed garden out back.


----------



## Aurelia

classixuk said:


> Let me guess....you're single, right?
> 
> I have to say, from reading all of the posts in this thread, I am suddenly damn appreciative of the area where I live. Some of the dangers in your neighbourhoods...it sounds like Kosovo! No wonder you spend most of your lives in this forum everyday. I would to if I lived in an area like that.
> 
> Round here, it seems like everyone lets their cats out. Cats are the choice pets in my local area. Dogs aren't so common, and you hardly ever hear dogs barking. Maybe that's why people feel so confident letting their cats out to roam the gardens?


Err nope. Married thanks 

As for the rest of your post ... something to bare in mind perhaps ...

Amethyst said earlier that she used to let her cats out, as did I. But until you experience it yourself, or become aware of the reality through rescue work (like she she did) ... well you could well be blind to the realities.

I know before I started losing my cats to the road all those years ago, I had no idea how bad the problem was until I started working early mornings and saw squashed cats on the road regularly ... or spoke to work colleagues and discovered that it was all to common for them too. Though they didn't seem to be as distraught as I was with losing yet another to the road  It was just one of those things to them, a couple even said as much.


----------



## RAINYBOW

Aurelia said:


> :lol:
> 
> I think the fact that you have made the decision not to have cats because you don't have the room is the right one  No flames there!
> 
> I used your posts to demonstrate that the reasons a lot of people are giving for not keeping their cats in could be applied to every domestic animal really.
> 
> I am actually really struggling to see why people aren't understanding this?
> 
> In an attempt to keep things nice and calm in this excellent debate thread  I would like to inject a bit of cuteness
> 
> Here are my really bored kitties that lead an unfulfilled life ... not!
> 
> [youtube_browser]ih5WPC6xfUw?hd=1[/youtube_browser]
> 
> It's Itty and Tinks (two kitties furthest right) 1st birthday today  The vid was taken just a short time ago, and I'm out of breath a bit, sorry about that.


Lovely  but i have to agree with some that i dont see where people have said all indoor cats have bored unfulfilled lives, i think that is what you think people think. Have to say though there does seem to be quite a significant suggestion that somehow people who let their cats out are "taking the easy option" or "don't really care" which i find a bit insulting and sad as i seriously doubt you will find "bad" pet owners on this site who don't consider the needs of their animals as a priority.

What a lot of people have said is that in THEIR circumstances and for THEIR cats allowing them to roam when weighed against the risks (which differ greatly between owners) is the right thing to do for that cat.

Billy was a part ferral farm cat who climbed the walls (literally) if kept indoors, he was fiercely independant and when we rescued him we worked so he would have been pretty lonely at home all day, which is why when we went to work he headed straight for the Doctors surgery.

Billy had a great life, he was loved by everyone, a real "community" cat and even though he died tragically i still wouldn't change a thing, i still wouldn't have kept him in. It's about quality of life for that individual cat and his would have been seriously impaired IMO as an indoor cat, i do not accept or believe he would have adjusted, even a cat proof garden would have been nowhere near the amount he needed to be content and fulfilled.

If that makes me a bad, wicked, lazy, irresponible cat owner then so be it, i can live with that.

And as for the OP. Basically DT answered it. Dogs don't roam anymore in this country because it's illegal and i would say that probably began with the dog fouling act whenever that was and gradually over the years it has become socially unacceptable to allow a dog to roam and now the majority of dogs aren't "trained" or suited to being allowed to roam and would be killed on the roads within a day.

Look at it like smoking - Used to be The Norm to light up anywhere, now it's not due to laws and that has led to this practice being seen as very anti social and unacceptable.


----------



## suzy93074

Cleo38 said:


> Me neither but I am getting a bit annoyed that because I am now choosing to let my cats out it is infered that I am compromising their safety & don't understand the dangers - I do.
> 
> There is a risk to everything & although as I said I am minimising these (no busy road, no being let out at night, rural area, no neighbours, big garden) there will be a risk. There is a risk when I let my dogs off their leads - I try to minimise this by training their recall as best I can, practising with long lines, treats, toys, notletting them off near roads, etc but no animal is 100% reliable so there is a risk that they will ignore me & b*gger off! And have done!
> 
> I choose to accept these risks now. There was a time when I constantly worried about 'what could happen' but this was not benefitting me or my animals.
> 
> Some people would argue that it's not safe to let my dogs have free reign of the house & garden when I am not there & they should be crated. I disagree - I feel that it is better for them to be able lay where they want, play when they want, chase each other round for a bit if they want. This is my choice & I am making that choice with their best interests at heart


Yes I agree! -

At the end of the day its down to personal choice - what you think benefits your pet - I KNOW there are some risks in letting my cat out - but like you I try to be consientious (sp) and minimise those risks as best I can - now that does not imo make me a bad owner as does it not to someone who keeps their cats indoors - we just have different views  bit like kids really everyone has different parenting skills but do so with the best intentions


----------



## MatildaG

Out of interest (although I do believe someone else did try to ask this earlier) - of the people who choose to let their cats roam, why do you opt for allowing roaming over a secure cat-proofed outdoor environment?

MG x


----------



## Aurelia

RAINYBOW said:


> Lovely  but i have to agree with some that i dont see where people have said all indoor cats have bored unfulfilled lives, i think that is what you think people think. Have to say though there does seem to be quite a significant suggestion that somehow people who let their cats out are "taking the easy option" or "don't really care" which i find a bit insulting and sad as i seriously doubt you will find "bad" pet owners on this site who don't consider the needs of their animals as a priority.
> 
> <snip>


I quoted just one example above in post #427. There have been other comments as well, but I'm buggered if I'm going through 400+ posts to find them :lol:

It works both ways Rainy. There have been comments that would infer we are being cruel for keeping out cats indoors.


----------



## Guest

Cleo38 said:


> Me neither but I am getting a bit annoyed that because I am now choosing to let my cats out it is infered that I am compromising their safety & don't understand the dangers - I do.
> 
> There is a risk to everything & although as I said I am minimising these (no busy road, no being let out at night, rural area, no neighbours, big garden) there will be a risk. There is a risk when I let my dogs off their leads - I try to minimise this by training their recall as best I can, practising with long lines, treats, toys, notletting them off near roads, etc but no animal is 100% reliable so there is a risk that they will ignore me & b*gger off! And have done!
> 
> I choose to accept these risks now. There was a time when I constantly worried about 'what could happen' but this was not benefitting me or my animals.
> 
> Some people would argue that it's not safe to let my dogs have free reign of the house & garden when I am not there & they should be crated. I disagree - I feel that it is better for them to be able lay where they want, play when they want, chase each other round for a bit if they want. This is my choice & I am making that choice with their best interests at heart


Your WHOLE post portrays EXACTLY how I feel!
And my cauldron is NOW on the boil!
Rep coming you way!


----------



## Guest

Cleo38 said:


> Me neither but I am getting a bit annoyed that because I am now choosing to let my cats out it is infered that I am compromising their safety & don't understand the dangers - I do.
> 
> There is a risk to everything & although as I said I am minimising these (no busy road, no being let out at night, rural area, no neighbours, big garden) there will be a risk. There is a risk when I let my dogs off their leads - I try to minimise this by training their recall as best I can, practising with long lines, treats, toys, notletting them off near roads, etc but no animal is 100% reliable so there is a risk that they will ignore me & b*gger off! And have done!
> 
> I choose to accept these risks now. There was a time when I constantly worried about 'what could happen' but this was not benefitting me or my animals.
> 
> Some people would argue that it's not safe to let my dogs have free reign of the house & garden when I am not there & they should be crated. I disagree - I feel that it is better for them to be able lay where they want, play when they want, chase each other round for a bit if they want. This is my choice & I am making that choice with their best interests at heart


Cleo!
Seems many moons ago - but can you remember how you and I used to argue?

sorry to go off track again guys! just thought it funny that an old sparring partner in now perhaps one of the members that I am tuned in with!


----------



## momentofmadness

MatildaG said:


> Out of interest (although I do believe someone else did try to ask this earlier) - of the people who choose to let their cats roam, why do you opt for allowing roaming over a secure cat-proofed outdoor environment?
> 
> MG x


MM I see this question going into.. well It would cost a fortune for a person to cat proof their huge garden.. Then I see people replying saying.. well If you aren't prepared for the out lay you shouldn't have the kitty...


----------



## RAINYBOW

Aurelia said:


> I quoted just one example above in post #427. There have been other comments as well, but I'm buggered if I'm going through 400+ posts to find them :lol:
> 
> It works both ways Rainy. There have been comments that would infer we are being cruel for keeping out cats indoors.


Maybe some aren't being clear then but i read this thread that most outdoor posters are saying THEIR cats wouldn't be suited to an indoor life (that is how i read Cleos tbh) but dont necesarily disagree with it in principal however on the other side of the debate their seems a complete inability to want to accept that maybe for some of us we are making a considered judgement based on the quality of OUR cats lives.

Aurelia do you think i am a bad pet owner ??

I would hope you would know me well enough to answer No to that, therefore i would also hope you would credit me with the sensibility to determine in my own circumstances what was in my animals "best interest" and i have repeated DESPITE how Billy died i would still have let him out every day because that was what *he *needed (IMO) for a contented and happy life.

Exactly like when my children are ready i will let them play out, go to the shops, ride their bikes etc and it will nearly half kill me with worry. Everything in life has risks but it doesn't stop us from living.

People just have different attitudes to "risk".

Some parents let their kids roam from an incredibly young age and some won't let them out til they are 18. I like to think there is a middle ground


----------



## RAINYBOW

momentofmadness said:


> MM I see this question going into.. well It would cost a fortune for a person to cat proof their huge garden.. Then I see people replying saying.. well If you aren't prepared for the out lay you shouldn't have the kitty...


My response would be it depends on the size of the garden tbh . My garden would have been nowhere near enough space for Billy but if i had a few acres then yes it would.


----------



## classixuk

gskinner123 said:


> Poor Aurelia  I guess she must be single, with only those rats, birds, cats, dog, etc for company. Yes, I too find that most people who care for their animals welfare are sad, single old sacks and are usually women. Shame.


That's a terrible thing to say. Just because she labours the points like a single lady doesn't mean she's a sad, single old sack! 

Lighten up. Even Aurelia admitted having trouble figuring out the quotes in the said post. It was funny to read and must have been even funnier for her to write! 

Back to cats though...I know that my cat loves me because even though he can go anywhere he likes, he always comes back home to me everyday.


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

Wow can't believe this thread is still going....

As I have said I have had both indoor and currently an outdoor cat and think most cats would prefer a combo of both.

One of My indoor cats was in for 14 years but when I gave him the opportunity to go out at 14 he did and loved it. Sitting in the garden he never ventured further than that and he enjoyed it and for me seeing him have that for the last remaining two years of his life brought me so much joy.

I never truly believed he was happy being indoors.

At one point he became very distressed at being an indoor cat. We felt it was due to noise ( lots of boy racers whizzing down out rd) and started spraying up my cabinet in the living room. This went on for ages.

When I moved to a quieter area and from a flat to a house and allowed him out it stopped over night.


As I have said I do think it's up to the cat and some love being indoors.

A lot though love to climb and they can't do that indoors.
And don't even get me started on those that de-claw their indoor cats to stop them from scratching the furniture 


Around here ( we are semi-rural) have loads of cats outside. They love to walk along my fence and tease the dogs and many sun bathe on the grassy areas outside. But we are on a housing estate and the back of me is more of a cul-de-sac so not comparable to a lot of you.

But I do understand those that live in more busier areas and the dangers but then if I am honest don't think I would get a cat if the area I lived in was really dangerous think I would chose another pet. But this is just my opinion and am not dissing your choices- before anyone starts!!


Maybe if so many cat owners now feel it not safe to let their cats out- I wonder if this will in time alter how they are kept e.g more outside cat pens and cat prof gardens etc...

Will in time with evolution will the cat lose it's predatory nature? not have the same sharp claws etc.. because it's being kept in-house??


----------



## RAINYBOW

classixuk said:


> That's a terrible thing to say. Just because she labours the points like a single lady doesn't mean she's a sad, single old sack!
> 
> Lighten up. Even Aurelia admitted having trouble figuring out the quotes in the said post. It was funny to read and must have been even funnier for her to write!
> 
> Back to cats though...I know that my cat loves me because even though he can go anywhere he likes, he always comes back home to me everyday.


Mine used to until we had horrible small babies then he decided the single woman down the road who fed him tuna was a better option  He did a fabulous "stray cat" impression despite looking as fit as a butchers dog.


----------



## classixuk

RAINYBOW said:


> Mine used to until we had horrible small babies then he decided the single woman down the road who fed him tuna was a better option  He did a fabulous "stray cat" impression despite looking as fit as a butchers dog.


LOL Rainy! Cats are great at that. Just like Simon's Cat on Youtube. I think every cat owner can sympathise.

I'm sure that my Sox had about 3 different homes!


----------



## RAINYBOW

classixuk said:


> LOL Rainy! Cats are great at that. Just like Simon's Cat on Youtube. I think every cat owner can sympathise.
> 
> I'm sure that my Sox had about 3 different homes!


Billy was an absolute bugger for it. Never forget going into the Doctor surgery and there he was curled up on a chair, they had no idea who he belonged to but told me he went in most days for a couple of hours sleep on the chair, we had a catflap so he wasn't locked out but he liked the fuss and company.

Did also have to go and "reclaim" him from one lady who was feeding him like a king and letting him sleep on the bed because he had pulled the whole "stray" act. He was such a lovely cat though i think thats why people took him in. They "wanted" to believe he was a stray rather than just a total floozy.

Eventually we allowed him to move in with the single lady down the road and part owned him for a couple of years because he was old and clearly preferred the quiet of her life to our (tbh so would i!!). You never really "own" cats like Billy you are just honoured they include you in their lives xx I still miss him 

Funny because he really had stopped coming to see us as he never took to Oscar but just before he was killed he came back one afternoon when it was quiet and the kids and Oscar were napping and spent a couple of hours on my lap like he used to, that was the last time i saw him alive and i always felt he came to say ta ra :cryin:


----------



## noushka05

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Wow can't believe this thread is still going....
> 
> As I have said I have had both indoor and currently an outdoor cat and think most cats would prefer a combo of both.
> 
> One of My indoor cats was in for 14 years but when I gave him the opportunity to go out at 14 he did and loved it. Sitting in the garden he never ventured further than that and he enjoyed it and for me seeing him have that for the last remaining two years of his life brought me so much joy.
> 
> I never truly believed he was happy being indoors.
> 
> At one point he became very distressed at being an indoor cat. We felt it was due to noise ( lots of boy racers whizzing down out rd) and started spraying up my cabinet in the living room. This went on for ages.
> 
> When I moved to a quieter area and from a flat to a house and allowed him out it stopped over night.
> 
> As I have said I do think it's up to the cat and some love being indoors.
> 
> A lot though love to climb and they can't do that indoors.
> And don't even get me started on those that de-claw their indoor cats to stop them from scratching the furniture
> 
> Around here ( we are semi-rural) have loads of cats outside. They love to walk along my fence and tease the dogs and many sun bathe on the grassy areas outside. But we are on a housing estate and the back of me is more of a cul-de-sac so not comparable to a lot of you.
> 
> But I do understand those that live in more busier areas and the dangers but then if I am honest don't think I would get a cat if the area I lived in was really dangerous think I would chose another pet. But this is just my opinion and am not dissing your choices- before anyone starts!!
> 
> Maybe if so many cat owners now feel it not safe to let their cats out- I wonder if this will in time alter how they are kept e.g more outside cat pens and cat prof gardens etc...
> 
> Will in time with evolution will the cat lose it's predatory nature? not have the same sharp claws etc.. because it's being kept in-house??


well recent studies suggest cats were domesticated around 10,000 years ago so i dont expect they'll loose their predatory nature anytime soon....but i for one, for the sake of wildlife, certainly wish they would.

i understand its up to individuals if they want to take a calculated risk letting their cats roam free thats fair enough, what i dont understand is that they seem okay that by letting them loose they risk our native birds and other wildlife...thats the bit i find really irresponsible....sorry just my views.

so be gentle with me

oh and declawing is illegal over here thank god!


----------



## Cleo38

My garden is dog-proofed which will probably keep the cats in as well. Seeing as Basil (cat) only learnt that he could jump up on to the kitchen worktop a few months ago i doubt he will scaling 6ft fences any time soon!

I have not argued that outdoor is better; I agree that it is down to personal choice, areas you live in, the type of cat you have, etc. My cats have been happy being indoor but if they want to go out now then I will let them. 

When I used the term 'quality of life' I did not mean that indoor cats missed out on this but simply meant that I felt that my cats would be benefiting more by being outside. One of my old cats would have hated being out - she literally used to shake if we tried to coax her out so she was an indoor cat all her life & was more than happy with this. Another of my cats would have gone mad had been kept inside as he loved visiting everyone in the street - I made choices based on what I thought was best for my cats then as I do now.


----------



## lulubel

classixuk said:


> LOL Rainy! Cats are great at that. Just like Simon's Cat on Youtube. I think every cat owner can sympathise.


When we lived in Cornwall, our next door neighbour went away and had some friends to stay and look after their young cat. The friends left her shut out in a storm, and she was scratching at our door and mewling, so we let her in. (None of these careful introductions - straight in with our cats.)

She spent the next 6 months sharing herself around. She knew where her home was, but she always came to us if her owners were out or they had visitors and she wanted a bit of peace and quiet. She and Milly got on really well, and Milly (who had always been shy and nervous) really came out of her shell, but Sam never got used to her because she didn't show him the respect he feels he deserves - stealing his food and chasing his tail was not acceptable behaviour - but he was always gentle with her.

Sadly, she was run over on 30th June 2008. A very sad day for everyone.


----------



## classixuk

noushka05 said:


> well recent studies suggest cats were domesticated around 10,000 years ago so i dont expect they'll loose their predatory nature anytime soon....but i for one, for the sake of wildlife, certainly wish they would.
> 
> i understand its up to individuals if they want to take a calculated risk letting their cats roam free thats fair enough, what i dont understand is that they seem okay that by letting them loose *they risk our native birds and other wildlife*...thats the bit i find really irresponsible....sorry just my views.
> 
> so be gentle with me
> 
> oh and declawing is illegal over here thank god!


I wouldn't have minded one of my cats getting hold of some of the wildlife to be honest...in particular, the heron. He emptied my entire pond of koi carp over the space of one month. Bugger.

The ducks used to fly into my garden when I had the pond (with their ducklings) and do laps of the pond right outside my patio door. Bless them. The cats used to just sit and stare at them, never once did one species go for the other.

The magpies on the other hand. I had one stuck in the chimney once and when I rang the RSPB they told me to "let it die" - not even the RSPB likes magpies!

I didn't let it die by the way. I tore apart the chimney in my bedroom, freed the bird and wrapped it in a towel before taking it downstairs and letting it out into the garden. OMG, the racket from it's mates! I think they'd all been waiting for him.


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat

I have to be on constant guard as Horris will and has done a runner when the door is open. I know he wants to be outside but its just not safe were we live now (downtown in a busy city)

ive seen a few cats here and one is in bad shape looks like it has two open wounds and feral. Ive actually seen it sitting on the fence peeking into the kitchen window :blink::blink:

Sophie is crated on a normal day 7 hours while we sleep and 1.5 hrs while we go out.


----------



## classixuk

lulubel said:


> When we lived in Cornwall, our next door neighbour went away and had some friends to stay and look after their young cat. The friends left her shut out in a storm, and she was scratching at our door and mewling, so we let her in. (None of these careful introductions - straight in with our cats.)
> 
> She spent the next 6 months sharing herself around. She knew where her home was, but she always came to us if her owners were out or they had visitors and she wanted a bit of peace and quiet. She and Milly got on really well, and Milly (who had always been shy and nervous) really came out of her shell, but Sam never got used to her because she didn't show him the respect he feels he deserves - stealing his food and chasing his tail was not acceptable behaviour - but he was always gentle with her.
> 
> Sadly, she was run over on 30th June 2008. A very sad day for everyone.


Poor thing, but it sounds like she knew which side her bread was buttered.

I had a secret affair with the cat across the road called Oscar. He'd even let himself in when I (or his owner) was out by opening the kitchen window. Like your situation, everyone was fine with it apart from Sox, one of my youngest males. If he ever saw Oscar in the house...fur would fly.


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

noushka05 said:


> well recent studies suggest cats were domesticated around 10,000 years ago so i dont expect they'll loose their predatory nature anytime soon....but i for one, for the sake of wildlife, certainly wish they would.
> 
> i understand its up to individuals if they want to take a calculated risk letting their cats roam free thats fair enough, what i dont understand is that they seem okay that by letting them loose they risk our native birds and other wildlife...thats the bit i find really irresponsible....sorry just my views.
> 
> so be gentle with me
> 
> oh and declawing is illegal over here thank god!


Oh yes well aware evolution takes thousand of years was just throwing it out there- you know seeing if the debate could be expanded.

Yes some cats will go after wildlife that's true but not all. Most are so well fed these days they don't have the need to kill for food though but yes some still hunt.

You are entitled to your views - like we all are.
Sadly don't have the answer to stop cats from hunting- nature can be cruel at times but then lots of animals eat each other or kill to protect their young etc.
Us humans are no better though at times are we?


----------



## suzy93074

I remember where I used to live there was a black cat who used to come and visit us - he was huge! I used to give him little titbits and tuna etc - and he would lie on the rug for a while and snooze (this was before I had jinks) subsequently I found out we were not honoured as I thought we were he visited everyone in the same little area LOL  he certainly had a lovely home too but liked to spread himself about! - I do often wonder if Jinks has another home .....he really does not venture out for huge amounts of time more of a pop in and pop out kind of cat - drives me mad tapping the letterbox all the time :tongue_smilie:


----------



## Guest

The world is going to end in 2012 so does it matter


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

suzy93074 said:


> I remember where I used to live there was a black cat who used to come and visit us - he was huge! I used to give him little titbits and tuna etc - and he would lie on the rug for a while and snooze (this was before I had jinks) subsequently I found out we were not honoured as I thought we were he visited everyone in the same little area LOL  he certainly had a lovely home too but liked to spread himself about! - I do often wonder if Jinks has another home .....he really does not venture out for huge amounts of time more of a pop in and pop out kind of cat - drives me mad tapping the letterbox all the time :tongue_smilie:


Cats are not loyal  the little buggers are quite happy to sit on someone's lap and go and eat elsewhere.

They are intelligent- I mean if we could get more food/cuddles/attention and variety without any consequences, sure a lot of us would do so too :lol::lol:


----------



## classixuk

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Cats are not loyal  the little buggers are quite happy to sit on someone's lap and go and eat elsewhere.
> 
> They are intelligent- I mean *if we could get more food/cuddles/attention and variety without any consequences, sure a lot of us would do so too* :lol::lol:


Lots of people do! 

Not me though


----------



## suzy93074

classixuk said:


> Lots of people do!
> 
> Not me though


:lol::lol:


----------



## suzy93074

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Cats are not loyal  the little buggers are quite happy to sit on someone's lap and go and eat elsewhere.
> 
> They are intelligent- I mean if we could get more food/cuddles/attention and variety without any consequences, sure a lot of us would do so too :lol::lol:


Yes they are little buggers!


----------



## canuckjill

In Canada cetain areas do have cat laws too. Where your cats are not to be at large. They have to be licensed also. I live in a rural area and its not the law here. They find it very hard to enforce in those cities with the cat law in place. Dogs also have to be licensed in the city. You get a reduction on price of the license if your dog is fixed, and a further reduction if your dog is microchipped. They do blitz's where they pick a neighbourhood and go door to door and you have to prove you dog is licensed if its not you have 14 days to rectify it before getting a ticket. Cats well most ( mine do go answer the door) don't meow when the bell rings so no one would know they were here except for the sign that says We got rid of the kids the cat was allergic...lol Cat laws seem to be harder to enforce than dog laws that is my point. It has been a interesting read and everyone has there own opinion and takes care of their cats as they seem fit just like we all have different opinions on child rearing, dog ownership, smoking etc.

I think this thread will be good for new cat owners as it explains the cons and pros of inside/outside cats and gives people some serious thinking to do. I like the idea of a cat run and if it came to it that would be my option with a catflap for inside/outside accessability.


----------



## classixuk

canuckjill said:


> ...
> 
> I think this thread will be good for new cat owners as it explains the cons and pros of inside/outside cats and gives people some serious thinking to do....


I never thought about it like that, but you are 100% correct Jill.

I read somewhere (might have been here) about the differences between a cat and a dog as pets. It stuck in my mind as it's very true.

When you come home from the supermarket, laden with food bags and looking flustered, your dog will look at you and think, "Wow. These people just went out hunting in that horseless carriage and brought back all of this food for us. Not only that, but while they were out I got to stay in their shelter which is totally amazing. It has toys I can play with, water I can drink and the heat levels kept just how I like them. These people are amazing in all they do for me. They must be Gods!"

Whereas your cat thinks, "Wow. These people just went out hunting in that horseless carriage and brought back all of this food for us. Not only that, but while they were out I got to stay in their shelter which is totally amazing. It has toys I can play with, water I can drink and the heat levels kept just how I like them. These people are amazing in all they do for me. I must be some kind of God!"


----------



## noushka05

classixuk said:


> I wouldn't have minded one of my cats getting hold of some of the wildlife to be honest...in particular, the heron. He emptied my entire pond of koi carp over the space of one month. Bugger.
> 
> The ducks used to fly into my garden when I had the pond (with their ducklings) and do laps of the pond right outside my patio door. Bless them. The cats used to just sit and stare at them, never once did one species go for the other.
> 
> The magpies on the other hand. I had one stuck in the chimney once and when I rang the RSPB they told me to "let it die" - not even the RSPB likes magpies!
> 
> I didn't let it die by the way. I tore apart the chimney in my bedroom, freed the bird and wrapped it in a towel before taking it downstairs and letting it out into the garden. OMG, the racket from it's mates! I think they'd all been waiting for him.


I dont think many cats would tackle a heron...think you need a husky lol ...joke:tongue_smilie:



Cockerpoo lover said:


> Oh yes well aware evolution takes thousand of years was just throwing it out there- you know seeing if the debate could be expanded.
> 
> Yes some cats will go after wildlife that's true but not all. Most are so well fed these days they don't have the need to kill for food though but yes some still hunt.
> 
> You are entitled to your views - like we all are.
> Sadly don't have the answer to stop cats from hunting- nature can be cruel at times but then lots of animals eat each other or kill to protect their young etc.
> Us humans are no better though at times are we?


but as there are 'millions' of cats free roaming im afraid many do kill wildlife and so will have an impact and that is regardless of whether they are well fed or not, that is the nature of the beast lol

and as ive said before cats are not part of nature... being 'Domesticated' they should not be free to kill the worlds wildlife,

Oh No Us humans are far far worse because we are aware of are actions so should no better....and ultimately its our fault cats are allowed to wreak havoc on wildlife in the 1st place...Not the cats!

heres the results of a survey
For example, in a survey on predation of wildlife by domestic cats in Great Britain, the commonest item brought home were wild mammals (69% of all items), followed by birds (24%), amphibians (4%), reptiles (1%), fish (less than 1%), invertebrates (1%) and unidentified prey (1%). In Britain, there are approximately 9 million cats (about 800,000 feral and 8 million pet cats) and the study estimated that the during the 5-month survey period, the British cat population brought home 52-63 million mammals, 25-29 million birds and 4-6 million reptiles and amphibians. There are difficulties in estimating these numbers for a number of reasons. First, not all cats kill wildlife and there is a great deal of variation in individual cat behaviour: some cats kill many more prey than others. Moreover, not all killed prey is brought home. A detailed study of ten sites in Bristol found a mean density of 348 cats per square kilometre: mean bird densities were just 1.17 adult birds and 3.07 juvenile birds per cat. Thus even very low levels of predation by cats is likely to have an impact: the most commonly taken species were ground foraging birds such as blackbirds, dunnocks, house sparrows and robins.


----------



## tjk

i have to say i really like this thread everyone has had a good say of what they feel and its good to see a proper discusion like grown ups ! 



and i think that yes in future genarations we probably will see an increase in cat runs and cat proofed gardens and who knows maybe one day the cat wont hunt but to be honest wouldnt a cat be a little odd without that instinct?
even cats that never go outside hunt down all the annoying flies in the house


----------



## noushka05

DoubleTrouble said:


> The world is going to end in 2012 so does it matter


it matters to the little fledglings.... and 12months is probably a decent lifespan for some critters:tongue_smilie:


----------



## Aurelia

RAINYBOW said:


> Maybe some aren't being clear then but i read this thread that most outdoor posters are saying THEIR cats wouldn't be suited to an indoor life (that is how i read Cleos tbh) but dont necesarily disagree with it in principal however on the other side of the debate their seems a complete inability to want to accept that maybe for some of us we are making a considered judgement based on the quality of OUR cats lives.
> 
> * Aurelia do you think i am a bad pet owner ??*
> 
> I would hope you would know me well enough to answer No to that, therefore i would also hope you would credit me with the sensibility to determine in my own circumstances what was in my animals "best interest" and i have repeated DESPITE how Billy died i would still have let him out every day because that was what *he *needed (IMO) for a contented and happy life.
> 
> Exactly like when my children are ready i will let them play out, go to the shops, ride their bikes etc and it will nearly half kill me with worry. Everything in life has risks but it doesn't stop us from living.
> 
> People just have different attitudes to "risk".
> 
> Some parents let their kids roam from an incredibly young age and some won't let them out til they are 18. I like to think there is a middle ground


Absolutely not Rainy 

I would have hoped you would know me well enough not to even ask that 

The answers I've given in this thread are based mostly on my personal experience (like you have yours). I have also debated others replies out of interest, to try and figure out their reasoning. It doesn't mean I hate all who let their cats out ... Nooooo :scared: not at all hun 



classixuk said:


> That's a terrible thing to say. Just because she labours the points like a single lady doesn't mean she's a sad, single old sack!
> 
> Lighten up. Even Aurelia admitted having trouble figuring out the quotes in the said post. It was funny to read and must have been even funnier for her to write!
> 
> Back to cats though...I know that my cat loves me because even though he can go anywhere he likes, he always comes back home to me everyday.


Classix Try as hard as you like but you and I both know what you're doing. I don't find it amusing, I only have so much tolerance. What you said was offensive and what gskinner said echoed my thoughts when I read you comment. I really would not like to get into any debate/argument with you though so please just leave it there.

I didn't have trouble figuring out the the quotes either, it was just hard work making sure I got it right to avoid confusion!


----------



## luvmydogs

MatildaG said:


> Out of interest (although I do believe someone else did try to ask this earlier) - of the people who choose to let their cats roam, why do you opt for allowing roaming over a secure cat-proofed outdoor environment?


Could the people who let their cats roam please answer this? Thanks.


----------



## Sacrechat

momentofmadness said:


> Dogs have been known to attack people ... Roam in packs that general scare people.. can kill farm animals.. I was chatting to a woman who bred dogs.. she was telling me when it was pregnant it hopped the fence and killed and started eating a sheep.... She was mortified never bred the bitch again.,.. If the farmer had seen it the dog would more than likely of been shot dead.. Dogs have more chance of getting into people rabits cages and killing their rabbits.. There was an incident local to me where this did happen two dogs got in a garden and ripped the cage to pieces then killed the rabbits.
> How many cats do you hear of killing farm animal and peoples pet rabbits whilst in the safety of their cages?


I'm not denying the danger that dogs pose to people but what about the danger cats pose to wildlife? Are they unimportant? Some people may think so but others are angered by the idea that cats are allowed to roam and kill without curtailment. Yes, it is the cat's instinct but we, as the more intelligent species, can prevent the extinction of our wildlife by preventing our cats from attacking and killing unnecessarily because they do not need it for food. We feed them. I have watched many a nature programme in which conservationists have pointed out the danger which cats pose to some species. It may only be a matter of time before these conservationists request that parliament consider bringing out a law which prevents domestic cats from roaming as they have with dogs. I don't think you are seeing the bigger picture.


----------



## luvmydogs

*I honestly believe that the people posting here saying they allow their cats to roam will look back in years to come and say 'wow, did I really do that?'* Just as I do when I remember us letting our dogs out.


----------



## Guest

Sacremist said:


> It may only be a matter of time before these conservationists request that parliament consider bringing out a law which prevents domestic cats from roaming as they have with dogs. I don't think you are seeing the bigger picture.


Personally I don't think this is something that will happen in my lifetime! And even if it were it would be extremely difficult to police and what would happen to all the farm cats, and the cats that have just 'choosen to live with a neighbour (it happens) rather then the owner?

My cats have all lived to a ripe old age but I shall not be having another when anything happens my current cat, so even if it were it would not affect me anyway!


----------



## suzy93074

luvmydogs said:


> Could the people who let their cats roam please answer this? Thanks.


I dont let my cat "Roam" he is allowed out but he stays close to where we live - and if he is out more than a couple of hours I will pop outside and tut him and he normally comes a running - I would never let him out and then forget about him for hours on end - thats my answer


----------



## luvmydogs

suzy93074 said:


> I dont let my cat "Roam" he is allowed out but he stays close to where we live - and if he is out more than a couple of hours I will pop outside and tut him and he normally comes a running - I would never let him out and then forget about him for hours on end - thats my answer


Thanks. Any more replies?


----------



## Guest

noushka05 said:


> it matters to the little fledglings.... and 12months is probably a decent lifespan for some critters:tongue_smilie:


Could be as close as nine month noush


----------



## thelioncub

Amethyst said:


> Why? Cats face similar, very similar risks that dogs do?


I'm only half way through this thread to know if anyone else has already mentioned this, but I would argue that it's not about the risk to the animal, it's about the risk to other humans.. Dogs roaming freely could possibly mean children torn up by aggressive breeds for no particular reason other than the dog was bored .. whereas a cat really isn't going to leap out and attack unless threatened. Dogs have been bred to be far less independent than cats and therefore have a much wider scope for causing trouble, simply because of their need to be controlled.


----------



## Guest

luvmydogs said:


> *I honestly believe that the people posting here saying they allow their cats to roam will look back in years to come and say 'wow, did I really do that?'* Just as I do when I remember us letting our dogs out.


But neither I nor my mother before me have EVER let our dogs roam!


----------



## noushka05

DoubleTrouble said:


> Could be as close as nine month noush


Great!...well you might aswell kill me now:arf:


----------



## Sacrechat

Cleo38 said:


> You could say not to drive my car as I am adding to a problem, if I buy any produce (& that's nearly everything) with palm oil then I am adding to destruction of habitats, there are many things we all do that add to the problem yet we still do them.
> 
> There are no studies (in this country) that have shown that cats are having an impact on wildlife in general, even the RSPB does not consider cats to be a problem to bird populations.


You've clearly not been watching the same TV programmes as me because this is not what I've been hearing and just because we cause damage to the environment doesn't mean we should continue to keep adding to the problem. I drive my car as little as possible. If I can, I walk. Should I start totally disregarding the pollution my car causes and start driving it all the time adding to the problem? After all, we are causing other damage so why not cause even more? That is what you seem to be saying.


----------



## Chez87

luvmydogs said:


> Thanks. Any more replies?


As I am currently a student and do not have the funds to catproof my garden. Also it would involve A LOT of work on the garden as it's not in the best state. And we aren't planning on being in this house for more than a couple of years.


----------



## Sacrechat

koekemakranka said:


> Hate to be pedantic, but there are no tigers in Africa


Okay sorry my mistake. I should have said Asia.


----------



## Kitty_pig

I've mentioned on another thread that I have recently changed my mind in whether Luna would be an outdoor or indoor cat. I live in a lovely area at the moment and my family's older cat is a bit of both, he goes out, does his business and comes back in. usually he is out for a maximum of half an hour at a time. 

However i will be moving in with my OH later this year, and I doubt we will be able to move into as nice an area as the one I live in now. So Luna will be a house cat, I've already bought a harness and lead for her to take her into the garden once she is old enough. The older cat doesnt hunt birds (he is too lazy). Luna thankfully wont have chance to.

When I was younger, having a house cat was hardly heard of, and as others have said it was quite common to see dogs "taking themselves for a walk". I think that good pet owners will always try to do the best for their animals. For my older cat it is to let him outside when he wishes to go, for Luna it will be to keep her indoors.


----------



## luvmydogs

Chez87 said:


> As I am currently a student and do not have the funds to catproof my garden. Also it would involve A LOT of work on the garden as it's not in the best state. And we aren't planning on being in this house for more than a couple of years.


Thanks for replying. As MOM rightly thought, I am now going to say you shouldn't have a cat if you don't have the means to catproof your garden and keep it safe. Thats my opinion.

So = next question - of those who can afford it, why don't you?


----------



## noushka05

Kitty_pig said:


> I've mentioned on another thread that I have recently changed my mind in whether Luna would be an outdoor or indoor cat. I live in a lovely area at the moment and my family's older cat is a bit of both, he goes out, does his business and comes back in. usually he is out for a maximum of half an hour at a time.
> 
> However i will be moving in with my OH later this year, and I doubt we will be able to move into as nice an area as the one I live in now. So Luna will be a house cat, I've already bought a harness and lead for her to take her into the garden once she is old enough. The older cat doesnt hunt birds (he is too lazy). Luna thankfully wont have chance to.
> 
> When I was younger, having a house cat was hardly heard of, and as others have said it was quite common to see dogs "taking themselves for a walk". I think that good pet owners will always try to do the best for their animals. For my older cat it is to let him outside when he wishes to go, for Luna it will be to keep her indoors.


OMG is that Luna on your avatar?:001_wub:


----------



## noushka05

luvmydogs said:


> Thanks for replying. As MOM rightly thought. I am now going to say you shouldn't have a cat if you don't have the means to catproof your garden and keep it safe. Thats my opinion.


tis my opinion aswell:tongue_smilie:


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

Just took dogs out and my cat - well let me explain.

He's not 100% mine as he adopted me and he seemed to be a stray. I have lived here for 7 yrs and he's been with me all that time. However he is a free spirit and comes and goes when he pleases as he has to be out. There are times when he stays in a lot but in summer especially he's out most of the time.
I didn't want another cat after my beloved Fergal was PTs but this cat came in to my live and Fergal's shortly before he died and my old cat accepted him as if to say- " there you go mummy you won't be alone now".

Anyway on way out he is sitting on top of garage having a wash. On way back he's fast asleep on garage with bum hanging over the edge.

So it got me thinking. Instead of just looking at negatives because life is all about balance what about the joys you get from your cat been outdoors.

So those who let them out what do you like about it?

For me it's seeing them sunbathing. No matter how hot it is they seem to love to bask in the sun.

I love watching them climb and walk along fences and taunt our dogs.

I love watching them jump onto my neighbours conservatory roof. You see them weighing it all up first, The more experienced ones take it in their stride whereas the youngest are somewhat wobbly!!!

I like it when they recognise you and follow you home

I like to watch them chase leaves and play in the bushes etc...

I love to see them enjoying a breeze with all their fur blowing

Anyone else have any?


----------



## Chez87

luvmydogs said:


> Thanks for replying. As MOM rightly thought, I am now going to say you shouldn't have a cat if you don't have the means to catproof your garden and keep it safe. Thats my opinion.
> 
> So = next question - of those who can afford it, why don't you?


Wow. Really? Then only those who are (relatively) well off should have cats? As I unfortunately don't have a spare £1200 (or more as my garden is actually very large). I feed my cats on the highest quality food I can buy, they have plenty of toys, cat trees etc, they are insured, but just because I don't have a huge wad of cash going spare to cat proof my garden I shouldn't have cats?


----------



## luvmydogs

Chez87 said:


> Wow. Really? Then only those who are (relatively) well off should have cats? As I unfortunately don't have a spare £1200 (or more as my garden is actually very large). I feed my cats on the highest quality food I can buy, they have plenty of toys, cat trees etc, they are insured, but just because I don't have a huge wad of cash going spare to cat proof my garden I shouldn't have cats?


By all means, keep your cats indoors.


----------



## Kitty_pig

noushka05 said:


> OMG is that Luna on your avatar?:001_wub:


Yes noushka it is hehehe 6 weeks old and already my owner never mind the other way around. She is coming home in a few weeks, cant wait.

Can I just say I am also a student and earn very little, my choices arent related to money though x


----------



## suzy93074

luvmydogs said:


> Thanks for replying. As MOM rightly thought, I am now going to say you shouldn't have a cat if you don't have the means to catproof your garden and keep it safe. Thats my opinion.
> 
> So = next question - of those who can afford it, why don't you?


I cannot cat proof as it is communal gardens - IF I had a private garden that was big enough to house one then it is something I would think about for any future cats I am to have - but for Jinks he will stay as is because that is what he is accustomed to and to change it now would not make him happy.


----------



## Chez87

luvmydogs said:


> By all means, keep your cats indoors.


I can understand you have strong views on keeping cats indoors, but I think this is being a little harsh. Unless you keep your cats indoors, or catproof your garden, you shouldn't have cats.


----------



## luvmydogs

Chez87 said:


> I can understand you have strong views on keeping cats indoors, but I think this is being a little harsh. Unless you keep your cats indoors, or catproof your garden, you shouldn't have cats.


"I have a dog but I can't afford to put a fence up in my garden so I'll let him roam the streets" = its exactly the same to me.


----------



## noushka05

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Just took dogs out and my cat - well let me explain.
> 
> He's not 100% mine as he adopted me and he seemed to be a stray. I have lived here for 7 yrs and he's been with me all that time. However he is a free spirit and comes and goes when he pleases as he has to be out. There are times when he stays in a lot but in summer especially he's out most of the time.
> I didn't want another cat after my beloved Fergal was PTs but this cat came in to my live and Fergal's shortly before he died and my old cat accepted him as if to say- " there you go mummy you won't be alone now".
> 
> Anyway on way out he is sitting on top of garage having a wash. On way back he's fast asleep on garage with bum hanging over the edge.
> 
> So it got me thinking. Instead of just looking at negatives because life is all about balance what about the joys you get from your cat been outdoors.
> 
> So those who let them out what do you like about it?
> 
> For me it's seeing them sunbathing. No matter how hot it is they seem to love to bask in the sun.
> 
> I love watching them climb and walk along fences and taunt our dogs.
> 
> I love watching them jump onto my neighbours conservatory roof. You see them weighing it all up first, The more experienced ones take it in their stride whereas the youngest are somewhat wobbly!!!
> 
> I like it when they recognise you and follow you home
> 
> I like to watch them chase leaves and play in the bushes etc...
> 
> I love to see them enjoying a breeze with all their fur blowing
> 
> Anyone else have any?


the bit in red stands out to me because life being about a balance is no more true a statement when applied to the natural world....and tragically domestic cats upset the balance of nature


----------



## Chez87

luvmydogs said:


> "I have a dog but I can't afford to put a fence up in my garden so I'll let him roam the streets" = its exactly the same to me.


It's not though is it. As the difference between dogs and cat roaming the streets has been pointed out countless times on this thread.


----------



## noushka05

Kitty_pig said:


> Yes noushka it is hehehe 6 weeks old and already my owner never mind the other way around. She is coming home in a few weeks, cant wait.
> 
> Can I just say I am also a student and earn very little, my choices arent related to money though x


wow shes a little stunner! bet youre soooo excited


----------



## luvmydogs

Chez87 said:


> It's not though is it. As the difference between dogs and cat roaming the streets has been pointed out countless times on this thread.


ok I'm sick of writing this now. There are as many reasons for keeping cats in as there are for keeping dogs in.


----------



## Chez87

luvmydogs said:


> ok I'm sick of writing this now. There are as many reasons for keeping cats in as there are for keeping dogs in.


Time for me to step out of this thread I think. I understand you will never see my point of view, so I see little point in carrying on with it.


----------



## luvmydogs

Chez87 said:


> Time for me to step out of this thread I think. I understand you will never see my point of view, so I see little point in carrying on with it.


I feel exactly the same way, as if I'm banging my head against a brick wall....:mad2:


----------



## lymorelynn

luvmydogs said:


> ok I'm sick of writing this now. There are as many reasons for keeping cats in as there are for keeping dogs in.


There are indeed but as yet it is not illegal in the UK for a cat to roam freely.
More and more people are turning to the idea of keeping their cats indoors or in a secure garden or run but until or unless there is a law to prevent it many people will allow their cats out. 
Education from vets, breeders (though many pedigree breeders insist that their cats go to indoor homes only) and rescues (the majority of which insist that their cats have outdoor access) is what is needed.


----------



## Kitty_pig

noushka05 said:


> wow shes a little stunner! bet youre soooo excited


 hehehe thank you, Im a bit too excited literally counting down the days


----------



## Chez87

lymorelynn said:


> There are indeed but as yet it is not illegal in the UK for a cat to roam freely.
> More and more people are turning to the idea of keeping their cats indoors or in a secure garden or run but until or unless there is a law to prevent it many people will allow their cats out.
> Education from vets, breeders (though many pedigree breeders insist that their cats go to indoor homes only) and rescues (the majority of which insist that their cats have outdoor access) is what is needed.


Don't get me wrong, the minute I am in proper employment, I will be catproofing my garden. I completely agree with catproofing, and would LOVE to do it for my own piece of mind. But until then, I will continue letting my cats out while I am in the house, in the mornings.


----------



## suzy93074

luvmydogs said:


> ok I'm sick of writing this now. There are as many reasons for keeping cats in as there are for keeping dogs in.


With all due respect - I understand this is something you are passionate about and yes there are many reasons to keep a cat in - who has NOT been outdoors or dislikes the outdoors but some people make the choice because it makes their cat happy and there is minimal risk - as long as the cat is happy thats what counts imo.


----------



## luvmydogs

suzy93074 said:


> With all due respect - I understand this is something you are passionate about and yes there are many reasons to keep a cat in - who has NOT been outdoors or dislikes the outdoors but some people make the choice because it makes their cat happy and there is minimal risk - as long as the cat is happy thats what counts imo.


So do you believe I should let my well adjusted dogs out? It would make them happy.... :


----------



## suzy93074

luvmydogs said:


> So do you believe I should let my well adjusted dogs out? It would make them happy.... :


I would say if there was no law against it - and had been previously let out for 7 years and then made to stay in then yes - unfortunately as already stated the law says dogs must not be allowed out unsupervised so there is really no argument imo about cats versus dogs - u cannot compare because one is illegal and the other is not.


----------



## luvmydogs

suzy93074 said:


> I would say if there was no law against it - and had been previously let out for 7 years and then made to stay in then yes - unfortunately as already stated the law says dogs must not be allowed out unsupervised so there is really no argument imo about cats versus dogs - u cannot compare because one is illegal and the other is not.


But there is no law against it here. So you think I should let them out? You think people in Uk should be able to let them out if there was no law?


----------



## gskinner123

Cockerpoo lover said:


> So those who let them out what do you like about it?
> 
> For me it's seeing them sunbathing. No matter how hot it is they seem to love to bask in the sun.
> 
> I love watching them climb and walk along fences and taunt our dogs.
> I love watching them jump onto my neighbours conservatory roof. You see them weighing it all up first, The more experienced ones take it in their stride whereas the youngest are somewhat wobbly!!!
> I like it when they recognise you and follow you home
> I like to watch them chase leaves and play in the bushes etc...
> I love to see them enjoying a breeze with all their fur blowing
> Anyone else have any?


I love seeing mine chase one another up, down and around the garden

Love to watch them stretching out, sunbathing.

Was most amusing, seeing how they reacted to the 18" of snow we had last winter.

Seeing them stalk leaves, one another, flies... less amusing when they do that with bees/wasps.

Incidentally, they do ALL of this in my OWN garden without the risk of being run over, etc, or sh*tting in other people's gardens, or destroying local wildlife.


----------



## Aurelia

luvmydogs said:


> Thanks for replying. As MOM rightly thought, I am now going to say you shouldn't have a cat if you don't have the means to catproof your garden and keep it safe. Thats my opinion.
> 
> So = next question - of those who can afford it, why don't you?


I was hoping this would remain a friendly debate. I think this will be where I exit.

It's been interesting folks :thumbup:


----------



## luvmydogs

Aurelia said:


> I was hoping this would remain a friendly debate. I think this will be where I exit.
> 
> It's been interesting folks :thumbup:


I'm sorry if you think I'm being unfriendly. Friendship doesn't really come into it for me. I still don't understand why people don't catproof their gardens.


----------



## lymorelynn

luvmydogs said:


> So do you believe I should let my well adjusted dogs out? It would make them happy.... :


But your well adjusted dogs can go out - for walks on leads, for runs in woods or fields or wherever they are allowed to run free off their leads. Cats can't do that  A cat does not go for a walk on a lead the same way that a dog does and would be more likely to run off if taken to a strange area and allowed to run free whereas a dog will (usually) come back on recall.
However one looks at it dogs running free is not the same even though there are as many valid reasons for cats not running free as there are for dogs.


----------



## luvmydogs

gskinner123 said:


> I love seeing mine chase one another up, down and around the garden
> 
> Love to watch them stretching out, sunbathing.
> 
> Was most amusing, seeing how they reacted to the 18" of snow we had last winter.
> 
> Seeing them stalk leaves, one another, flies... less amusing when they do that with bees/wasps.
> 
> Incidentally, they do ALL of this in my OWN garden without the risk of being run over, etc, or sh*tting in other people's gardens, or destroying local wildlife.


Fantastic. :thumbup:


----------



## Chez87

luvmydogs said:


> I'm sorry if you think I'm being unfriendly. Friendship doesn't really come into it for me. I still don't understand why people don't catproof their gardens.


I already told you one reason which I'm sure applies to many more than just myself.


----------



## luvmydogs

lymorelynn said:


> But your well adjusted dogs can go out - for walks on leads, for runs in woods or fields or wherever they are allowed to run free off their leads. Cats can't do that  A cat does not go for a walk on a lead the same way that a dog does and would be more likely to run off if taken to a strange area and allowed to run free whereas a dog will (usually) come back on recall.
> However one looks at it dogs running free is not the same even though there are as many valid reasons for cats not running free as there are for dogs.


Not here they can't. We have a huge garden and have bought a swimming pool to exercise her. All I'm saying is if you catproofed your garden the cats could get their exercise and if you play with them they also get the stimulation they need.


----------



## lymorelynn

Just want to add - it's easier to dog proof a garden than cat-proof one too.


----------



## gskinner123

I'm going to bow out of this one too  It's been interesting but at what, 51 pages, we've still not managed to get a single dog owner to say - I don't let my dog out by itself because it'd get run over/lost/stolen/into fights/etc/etc

No, it appears that they all simply don't open the door and let the dog out because.... they're law abiding citizens.


----------



## laurahair

luvmydogs said:


> I'm sorry if you think I'm being unfriendly. Friendship doesn't really come into it for me. I still don't understand why people don't catproof their gardens.


I can afford to catproof my garden but can't afford to buy my own house, so do you think that as i am not allowed to catproof my garden i should get rid of my cats?

As it happens they are indoor cats, but have not always been-we changed when we moved near to a busy road from a very quiet semi-rural cul-de-sac.


----------



## luvmydogs

gskinner123 said:


> I'm going to bow out of this one too  It's been interesting but at what, 51 pages, we've still not managed to get a single dog owner to say - I don't let my dog out by itself because it'd get run over/lost/stolen/into fights/etc/etc
> 
> No, it appears that they all simply don't open the door and let the dog out because.... they're law abiding citizens.


LMAO :lol: *I don't let my dog out by itself because it'd get run over/lost/stolen/into fights/etc/etc* - there are no laws regarding dogs here.


----------



## luvmydogs

laurahair said:


> I can afford to catproof my garden but can't afford to buy my own house, so do you think that as i am not allowed to catproof my garden i *should get rid of my cats*?
> 
> As it happens *they are indoor cats*, but have not always been-we changed when we moved near to a busy road from a very quiet semi-rural cul-de-sac.


No, because they are indoor cats.


----------



## Cleo38

luvmydogs said:


> LMAO :lol: *I don't let my dog out by itself because it'd get run over/lost/stolen/into fights/etc/etc* - there are no laws regarding dogs here.


But there are here though


----------



## laurahair

They are now, but when i lived in what i felt was a safer area for them they were allowed to roam


----------



## luvmydogs

OK I think I'll stop posting now too - my head is hurting from banging it against this wall. But I still do believe people will look back and think "I can't believe I let my cats out". Maybe this thread has made some people think. Maybe not. But I've given my opinion and now I'm just repeating myself over and over.


----------



## Cleo38

gskinner123 said:


> I love seeing mine chase one another up, down and around the garden
> 
> Love to watch them stretching out, sunbathing.
> 
> Was most amusing, seeing how they reacted to the 18" of snow we had last winter.
> 
> Seeing them stalk leaves, one another, flies... less amusing when they do that with bees/wasps.
> 
> Incidentally, they do ALL of this in my OWN garden without the risk of being run over, etc, or sh*tting in other people's gardens, or destroying local wildlife.


I love watching Basil & Winnie exploring the outside - the new smells, sounds, watching everything so intently.

They seem to enjoy it although Basil then likes to come in when we do, I think our chickens scare him 

Winnie is a very brave girl & stays out on her own until the dogs decide she's been out long enough & make her come in


----------



## Sacrechat

Cleo38 said:


> Because they (& I) don't believe there are as many reasons.
> 
> As I have said before dogs pose more of a risk to people than cats do - they can also hurt each other alot more than cats do so that is one area I believe that I do not let my dogs roam but will let my cats.


You clearly didn't see the long list of reasons which was give by Luvmydogs. I think you will find there are many reasons, just as many as there are for dogs. They may not all be the same reasons but each reason just as valid.


----------



## Sacrechat

momentofmadness said:


> I haven't heard of cats fighting till they kill each other? I could be wrong but it is just something I have never heard of.. Cats usually brawl then run off..


So you are saying that cats cannot do each other serious harm? Are you kidding? Have you seen the claws and teeth on a cat. Many a cat allowed to roam has found itself in the vets with abcesses, ulcerated eyes to name just a few wounds caused by cat fights. These wounds can and have turned bad in some cases. True the cat may not die immediately, but they can still die from infections and such like caused by wounds. Rather they die a slower more painful death and even if they don't die, they still suffer.


----------



## noushka05

gskinner123 said:


> I love seeing mine chase one another up, down and around the garden
> 
> Love to watch them stretching out, sunbathing.
> 
> Was most amusing, seeing how they reacted to the 18" of snow we had last winter.
> 
> Seeing them stalk leaves, one another, flies... less amusing when they do that with bees/wasps.
> 
> Incidentally, they do ALL of this in my OWN garden without the risk of being run over, etc, or sh*tting in other people's gardens, or destroying local wildlife.


your cats are very lucky....and so is your local wildlife .....

cos to me this seems to be an issue many cat owners turn a blind eye to.


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

gskinner123 said:


> I love seeing mine chase one another up, down and around the garden
> 
> Love to watch them stretching out, sunbathing.
> 
> Was most amusing, seeing how they reacted to the 18" of snow we had last winter.
> 
> Seeing them stalk leaves, one another, flies... less amusing when they do that with bees/wasps.
> 
> Incidentally, they do ALL of this in my OWN garden without the risk of being run over, etc, or sh*tting in other people's gardens, or destroying local wildlife.


The aim of the post was to try and inject some positivity into this thread and look at the things we enjoyed about seeing cats outside.

It wasn't meant for sarcasm or oneupmanship 

So yours are not what I would class entirely as an indoor cat as they enjoy the freedom of your garden.

Anyway had enough of this thread- nothing has been concluded and never will.


----------



## Sacrechat

KathrynH said:


> How many cat fights do you hear or see??
> 
> How many dog fights would you see if they were all roaming the streets??
> 
> How many cats do you see or hear of attacking people??
> 
> How many dogs do you see or hear of attacking people if they were roaming the streets??


We are not saying that dogs cannot be dangerous and that cats are equally so, that is not the issue. You are missing the point. We are saying that there are OTHER REASONS why a cat should not be allowed to roam and that those reasons are EQUALLY AS VALID as the dangerous dogs issue, namely, the cat's safety and the safety of the wildlife from a conservation point of view.


----------



## Sacrechat

KathrynH said:


> Yes it was the same when i was growing up but it not like that now unfortunately.
> 
> My point is you would definitely see more dog fights than cats in the streets.


I was brought up in an era when dogs roamed freely. I cannot say I ever saw one single dog fight.


----------



## Guest

Cockerpoo lover said:


> The aim of the post was to try and inject some positivity into this thread and look at the things we enjoyed about seeing cats outside.
> 
> It wasn't meant for sarcasm or oneupmanship
> 
> So yours are not what I would class entirely as an indoor cat as they enjoy the freedom of your garden.
> 
> Anyway had enough of this thread- nothing has been concluded and never will.


you're fighting a losing battle! I've tried a few times and I can CATagorically say! That sense of humour died pages back!


T'is getting scarey now! even I am peeing my pants


----------



## Guest

Sacremist said:


> I was brought up in an era when dogs roamed freely. I cannot say I ever saw one single dog fight.


I never saw a lot of fights to be honest! but I did see several matings, and recall asking my mum when I was about seven why those two dogs were stuck together!
Strange what sticks in your mind! I can still see it as though it were yesterday! outside the chippy on the estate it were!


----------



## Sacrechat

DoubleTrouble said:


> I would like to thing that EVERYONE on this forum has their pets - in this case cats , welfare and best interests at heart! Some of you chose to keep you cats in - others allow their cats out! OK the thread were started as a question by the OP but some posts do read to me to be some members that are dissing those that do let their cats out! Don't ask me to quote folk as I ain't about the enter into a cat fight!
> You can provide as much evidence as you like as to why it is best to keep cats in -but until I see cat wardens on the streets,signs telling me to pick up after my cat, and notices saying cats must be kept on a lead at all times then I for one shall be continuing to let my cat out!
> 
> 
> Edited to add! of course should my cat ever become infirm or at risk I would of course keep him in ! and I do NOT like to hear of cats being left out ALL night! AND I do think strongly that they should be desexed!


And equally some posts on here appear to be dissing those who keep their cats in, we can all argue that someone's opinion is dissing someone else just because they don't agree. It all depends on which side of the fence you are sitting. We each see things from our own perspective so we each feel the opposing side is dissing our argument. Sorry, but no-one is dissing anyone, we are each expressing our opinion about the topic. If people do not like the opinion we express, trying to stop us expressing it by accusations of dissing their argument is not the way to do about things. I should also add, that these thoughts are often felt when one side feels they are losing the argument. Do you think your side is losing DT? :tongue_smilie:


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

DoubleTrouble said:


> you're fighting a losing battle! I've tried a few times and I can CATagorically say! That sense of humour died pages back!
> 
> 
> T'is getting scarey now! even I am peeing my pants


Yes realised that one DT

Cannot be ar*** anymore.
Life is too short and I'd rather be having a laugh


----------



## Sacrechat

KathrynH said:


> I just did!!!


WHERE? All I saw was the same old argument about dangerous dogs.


----------



## Sacrechat

Marley boy said:


> I will add though that if marley was allowed to roam free he would probably run towards an on comming car to say hello, where as i sure cats are more road savy, not that i would risk it, but i think cats are more cautious. I think it is hard to compare dogs and cats, for one dogs get taken for walks everyday and to fun places to stimulate them i.e parks, wood, beach (well in theory they should) so there is no need for them to roam. Indoor cats however dont usually get taken out to the park for stimulation ect. This is the reason i let my cats have the garden as a comprimise


I sometimes take mine out in a kitty pushchair.


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

Just one last thing:

*No-one on this thread has an outdoor cat

what they have is a cat that goes outdoors but equally comes in too

so what we have are indoor/outdoor cats *


----------



## Guest

Sacremist said:


> Do you think your side is losing DT? :tongue_smilie:


Nah! I don't do losing

DT runs like fooking hell and dives for cover!


----------



## Guest

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Just one last thing:
> 
> *No-one on this thread has an outdoor cat
> 
> what they have is a cat that goes outdoors but equally comes in too
> 
> so what we have are indoor/outdoor cats *


Well I have just forcibly fethced my cat in! quite annoyed so he is! I blame you lot!


----------



## Guest

Sacremist said:


> I sometimes take mine out in a kitty pushchair.


Can we have pictures please?


----------



## noushka05

well i for one am passionate about wildlife and conservtion so i will battle to the death on this subject...but i have to say this has been a pretty amicable debate compared to the last time i expressed my views on this subject on another forum im a member on....one stoopid clown on there resorted to calling me a cat hater fgs :.


----------



## Sacrechat

suzy93074 said:


> I think we are losing sight of some things here! - there are probably not that many differences between letting cats and dogs roam - but in context I think because of all the different breeds of dogs and their natures if left unsupervised the risk to the public COULD be more than that of a small cat - MOST cats IMO when outside tend to shy away from public places - they dont want to be where there are loads of humans,cars,noise etc - whereas many dogs will be drawn to those areas and want to play and interact with humans ie jumping up at them or such - not many cats do that they normally run away and hide under a bush if you walk past! so for me the dangers of dogs out alone are more real than a cat.


Again you are bringing up the dangerous dog issue. No-one is saying that cats are dangerous to humans. Read the thread. We are saying that cats are dangerous to wildlife and from a conservation point of view this is equally as valid as the dangerous dog argument.


----------



## Guest

noushka05 said:


> well i for one am passionate about wildlife and conservtion so i will battle to the death on this subject...but i have to say this has been a pretty amicable debate compared to the last time i expressed my views on this subject on another forum im a member on....one stoopid clown on there resorted to calling me a cat hater fgs :.


noush! you havn't got it in you to hate any living thing! well animal that is! dunno about humans - reckon a fair few of them are worthy of hate!

i am gone now!! honest!


----------



## Guest

luvmydogs said:


> Could the people who let their cats roam please answer this? Thanks.


My cat also stays in the garden or in the street and will not "roam" as you put it.


----------



## Sacrechat

DoubleTrouble said:


> Right! not wanting to go off track! but what do you guys who keep you pussy's in then think to those that keep their cats kenneled ( or catteried whatever you call it) all the time! Those cats that NEVER go into a house - nor are allowed to roam?
> Just curious!


It depends on how they are kept. My friend has a moggie with FIV. She cannot let him into the house with her pedigree cats in case he infects them and she will not let him roam in case he infects another cat. He has a huge pen with heated quarters, lovely beds and bushes and trees inside his cat proof pen. She sits in the pen with him for long periods of time during the day. He has loads of cat toys. I believe she keeps him safe and other cats safe from him and she does it very well, so I have no problem with it when needs must.


----------



## Sacrechat

DoubleTrouble said:


> You would be breaking the law!
> You are NOT breaking the law by letting your cat roam!


Yes, but you should be breaking the law by letting your cat roam, in my opinion anyway. One day I hope the conservationists do take this to parliament and make it law.


----------



## Sacrechat

momentofmadness said:


> Some do...
> 
> Personally, My horses went in the field as much as possible.. actually my big mare lived out at night came in in the morn and went out again later.. In that time she was in I would groom ride and generally pester her..
> Unfortunately our section A had limited time out bacause of a condition she had.. and if I had left her out.. I would have been prosecuted by the RSPCA for neglect..
> 
> My dogs they get to roam about on the walks we go on off lead we can go off lead for several miles.. and have plenty of woods etc for them to have plenty of free time.. .. They also roam freely around my house.
> 
> My Rats.. In the evening get to roam around my living room.. And often in the day they get to run up and down the stairs..
> 
> The hamsters get the stairs or a room one by one..  Or go in their balls at he same time.. But I have had a couple escape from the balls so it isn't something I do often also the noise from them crashing into everything is horrendous..
> 
> When I had budgies My cage was open apart from when we ate in that room.. They were quite happy to sit on the window sill or on he curtains..
> 
> My cats I let out.. I don't think I have enough room in my house to let one have the room they need.. Cats like to jump run and chase things..
> 
> My fish are in a tank.. TBO I would like to have a much bigger tank.. But Im afraid I haven't the room to keep a 6' tank..
> 
> When we had the ducks.. They roamed the garden.. thinking they were dogs..
> 
> When I had rabbits they were out virtually 24/7 through the warm months. They weren't made with big strong back legs to sit around in cages..


I have a cat run with climbing frames, plants and toys and insects get inside so my cats also get to climb, run and chase things only they do it in the safety of a large enclosure.


----------



## Sacrechat

suzy93074 said:


> And thats it pure and simple!


Then the law is an ass!


----------



## Amethyst

luvmydogs said:


> *I honestly believe that the people posting here saying they allow their cats to roam will look back in years to come and say 'wow, did I really do that?'* Just as I do when I remember us letting our dogs out.


I think some will, some won't and that will be their decision. I'd say it will depend on the experience of coming years?

I know some members, with free roaming cats, seem determined to say that those that who keep theirs indoors, consider them cruel .... Which I have seen no evidence of 

It's a funny old world, a friend who has scraped as many, no many more, cats off roads than me still lets hers out ... I see it as her choice.


----------



## Sacrechat

noushka05 said:


> have to say great example of why the law is an ass:


Great minds think alike!


----------



## Guest

Sacremist said:


> Yes, but you should be breaking the law by letting your cat roam, in my opinion anyway. One day I hope the conservationists do take this to parliament and make it law.


Well when and if that time arises then I will then address the situation! But until then..........


----------



## Sacrechat

suzy93074 said:


> I would NEVER take my cat to a cattery! There is only one person who can look after my cat - a friend of my OH's dont ask me why but Jinks loves him and he comes and sorts him out - stays and plays with him etc and I feel much more comfortable with that situ - If he cannot look after him then I would have to reassess my holiday plans


Same here, my friend comes over to my house twice and day to feed my cats and play with them. My dog moves into her home with her while we are away.


----------



## noushka05

DoubleTrouble said:


> noush! you havn't got it in you to hate any living thing! well animal that is! dunno about humans - reckon a fair few of them are worthy of hate!
> 
> i am gone now!! honest!


nope there isnt a single creature that i hate...im not keen on ticks mind:yikes:...but theres probably zillions of people that i hate with a vengence, dont know many personally tho:tongue_smilie:


----------



## tjk

DoubleTrouble said:


> I never saw a lot of fights to be honest! but I did see several matings, and recall asking my mum when I was about seven why those two dogs were stuck together!
> Strange what sticks in your mind! I can still see it as though it were yesterday! outside the chippy on the estate it were!


i remember seeing this too and for years thought they must of been siamese twins hahaha


----------



## noushka05

Sacremist said:


> Then the law is an ass!





Sacremist said:


> Great minds think alike!


so true


----------



## Guest

Amethyst said:


> I think some will, some won't and that will be their decision. I'd say it will depend on the experience of coming years?
> 
> I know some members, with free roaming cats, seem determined to say that those that who keep theirs indoors, consider them cruel .... Which I have seen no evidence of
> 
> It's a funny old world, a friend who has scraped as many, no many more, cats off roads than me still lets hers out ... I see it as her choice.


i don't consider it cruel! it is what they (well mine at least) are used to! As I have said before my current cat is 17 - I could not keep him in I know! If my bathroom window is open he will go onto the the garage roof! he is like a third dog and follows the dogs around! I do however ensure he is in EVERY night without fail! AND! we have now blocked up the cat flap so that he can only go out when WE open the door!

and how the hell would I cat proof my garden?


----------



## Sacrechat

Amethyst said:


> Personally my initial thoughts were based around the idea that why do we allow cats to roam freely when they are just as vulnerable as dogs out on the streets?
> 
> I've been honest ... I used to do it years ago at a time when to do the same with my dogs would have horrified me ... but I still let my cats out
> 
> I did it because it was traditional to do so, I had never questioned it and because it was easier. Cats were occupied elsewhere, less smell from litter tray ( I never worried or even considered my cat was pooping in other peoples gardens!), I didn't have to make an effort to keep windows/doors closed ... and of course they liked it. It was the all round good thing to do.
> 
> But when I started getting calls most days about cats going missing, lying injured at side of roads ... I began to question myself.
> 
> Probably the epiphany for me was a little black cat.
> 
> I got a call from a taxi office, one of their drivers had hit a cat and it was injured at side of road ... It was nearby, I actually ran down with basket as I had no transport. The cat was unable to stand and yowling in pain, she also looked to have a broken leg. Wearing gloves, I manged to gently get her in basket. The taxi driver took me to our vet.
> 
> The vet confirmed her leg was broken, he could have sorted that,
> but an x ray revealed a badly fractured spine. I stroked her as she was pts.
> 
> We never found the owner, I presume she had one as she was well cared for. Maybe they were frightened in case we presented them with vet bill? Who knows?
> 
> No doubt this little kitty enjoyed her freedom ... but it cost her her life.
> 
> I'll never forget that little girl and she became ultimately responsible for my cats becoming house pets.


The final straw for me after years of seeing our cats killed on the roads, shot and stabbed was when next doors cat came home saturated in creosote. The doors locked and were never opened for my cats to roam again.


----------



## Guest

Sacremist said:


> WHERE? All I saw was the same old argument about dangerous dogs.


For some reason you seem to have it in for me and are quoting a lot of my posts so i will repeat myself again, not once have i spouted about DANGEROUS dogs, it was cat's on the streets v's dogs on the street and the aspect of that happening obviously there are dangers!!! 
Please do not try and twist things that i have said to make me out to be saying dogs are all DANGEROUS!!!

What i am saying is "dogs do not roam the streets as they are walked by there owners etc, they are taken to the park and let of there leads and run and play.

Can you imagine the world taking there cats out on leads round the park for an exercise. 

People really need to get a grip i think on REALITY, i understand the whole conservation aspect but until the law changes that cats are not allowed out which by the way will NEVER happen believe all you want people, then my cat will go out, just for the record my cat couldnt even catch a fly so no chance of it ever killing any wildlife believe me.

This was a nice thread and thank you for bringing it up amethyst but it has just gone nuts now so as the rest i will not be posting anymore.

But thank you all for the debate and the interesting issues everyone has raised on here, it has made good reading.

Kath x


----------



## Sacrechat

suzy93074 said:


> Well my answer to those would be that these animals are far less easier to tame than a cat or a dog who do come back to their owners.


Sounds like a cop out answer to me.


----------



## Sacrechat

DoubleTrouble said:


> Probably because of everything you have highlighted EVERY single one of these would fall prey to their wild conterparts in a very very short time!
> Have you ever seen what happens when a budgie escapes and the wild birds get a hold of it!
> 
> What do you think would happen ifyou dropped your goldfish into the river!
> 
> Cats - certainly in the UK and not at risk by preditors anywhere near the the examples you have listed!
> 
> That was imv a silly comparison!


I don't agree, you only think it's silly because you can't come up with a good enough answer. :tongue_smilie:


----------



## Sacrechat

Ren said:


> No sillier than the previous horse analogy though! :lol:


Yes, I wonder if DT now feels like a right Ass!:tongue_smilie:


----------



## Sacrechat

momentofmadness said:


> Because they had enough room in the garden to stretch their legs.. and I say enough room in my opinion.. When I was a child we had hedgerow up the garden.. So if they really wanted they could venture into neighbours.. But they didn't.. they would much rather harass the cats steal my dads veggies he was growing and nibble the grass
> 
> You see I do the best that I can by my pets.. And to me.. that means having them out as much as possible..
> 
> Like Ive said.. I dont think my house is big enough to keep a cat inside.
> 
> Aurelia you forgot to ask about the horses and the dogs..


And, of course, if you did let them out, there is always the chance one of the free roaming cats would kill them. :tongue_smilie:


----------



## Sacrechat

suzy93074 said:


> But dont wildlife eat/destroy other wildlife? is'nt that also wreaking havoc on habitats etc??


Not all to the extent that cats are doing, no, with the exception of the grey squirrel, perhaps, which is not native to this country but is running the red squirrel into extinction.


----------



## Guest

Sacremist said:


> I don't agree, you only think it's silly because you can't come up with a good enough answer. :tongue_smilie:


I can't come up with an answer because there isn't one!
There will always be those of you who will believe that you are doing the best for your cat by keeping it in! AND, in some circumstances I will agree, depending on many factors, the areas in which you live, are there busy roads near you, the age of your cat! (I believe many cats are road victems prior to reaching two years of age) I do not believe that I am doing wrong by my cat by letting him out, (the wildlife factor is a whole different thread) And shall continue to let him out whilst I think it safe for him to do so. I know many people whose cats live indoors, my stepdaughters being one and out ex cleaner another! (my ex cleaner by the way has NEVER had a cat live beyond 12 years of age) But my cat goes out! End of! I neither have to justify why, nor alter this arrangment for the immediate future! but rest assured should such a time arise then I shall do what I consider best! That will be a decision made on my views - NOT that of those of pet forum members!
There you have it! END of!


----------



## Sacrechat

momentofmadness said:


> Actually This is what I put about cats..
> 
> And it seems it wasn't quoted..
> 
> My cats I let out.. I don't think I have enough room in my house to let one have the room they need.. Cats like to jump run and chase things..


My cats do run chase jump and chase things in their lovely safe cat proofed run.


----------



## Guest

Sacremist said:


> Not all to the extent that cats are doing, no, with the exception of the grey squirrel, perhaps, which is not native to this country but is running the red squirrel into extinction.


We have grey squirrels in outr garden! my cat does not even bother with them! have seen several squashed on the road though! Can#t imagine many cats catching squirells! go on! prove me wrong!


----------



## Cleo38

Tbh I don't think anyone here who lets their cat outside has said keeping them indoors is cruel. Just as I don't think keeping a dog leashed is cruel but it is all about personal choice & what we choose to do for our pets.

I'm still not convinced by the impact on wildlife at all, I have read numerous studies & am not convinced that cat ownership has a big enough impact compared with other factors. 

Some post keep banging on about this & about a law to 'protect wildlife' - are you going to extend this to dogs off lead then? As I said one of my dogs does dig up rats/mice/moles, etc & does kill them when she runs around in the fields. The farmer I was telling loves this & wishes she's get the 'bloody rabbits' (his words) as well.


----------



## Sacrechat

DoubleTrouble said:


> My dogs have the utter freedon of the house! as does my cat, they also have the pleasure of a decent size garden, and they are also walked!
> 
> Not all dogs share the luxuries mine do! and I do honestly believe that if ever there was a law introduced to stop cats from roaming that WE COLUD be in danger of seeing SOME cats housed in rabbit hutch like conditions!
> 
> Again -I add that is only a fear!


Extremely unlikely though!


----------



## Sacrechat

suzy93074 said:


> No I know you not attacking me just discussing  - I DO see what you are saying
> 
> Yes I see that but when cats hunt is that not their natural order? their natural instinct? take an indoor cat who has never been outside - if you get a play mouse for it to play with it will "automatically" go into hunt mode.....im not condoning letting cats catch wild-life but I do think they do it out of instinct they are not doing it because they dislike the mouse


It is natural for cats to hunt, it is not natural for cats in such large numbers to hunt in this eco-system without doing severe damage.


----------



## catsmum

Chez87 said:


> As I am currently a student and do not have the funds to catproof my garden. Also it would involve A LOT of work on the garden as it's not in the best state. And we aren't planning on being in this house for more than a couple of years.


you've probably bowed out by now but just though i would mention, you can buy a good sized outdoor cat run for as little as £250, and they break down into panels and can be reassembled if or when you move house



Cockerpoo lover said:


> The aim of the post was to try and inject some positivity into this thread and look at the things we enjoyed about seeing cats outside.
> 
> It wasn't meant for sarcasm or oneupmanship


it wasnt sarcasm or oneupmanship stated by gskinner, it is just the reality of it. and it was in direct response to your post about enjoying seeing your cats climb, chase leaves, enjoy the breeze in their face etc, all of that can be achieved with a cat run or a cat proofed garden

all of the benefits of the outdoors with none of the risks (for our cats or our native species)


----------



## Amethyst

Walking home this afternoon I passed close by a property where someone kept a "horde" of cats indoors. We became aware of this after the person died and social services contacted us ... the cats had been in there several days with the body ... and well, you can imagine 

I remember thinking what an awful life they must have had and horrendous few days. In the extreme cases of people having too many cats, I am sure despite the risks, they would be better off with outside access 

Guess what I am saying is that the average size home could only really keep a small number of cats as house cats.


----------



## Chez87

Catsmum, thanks for that. But I would want either a very large cat run, or just to cat proof my fences so that the cats couldn't get out. As my cats are used to having the run of the whole (large garden) at least. I don't think for £250 I could do either of these thing. But thanks anyway.


----------



## Sacrechat

Aurelia said:


> I said that a bit tongue in cheek, but also because of comments like this ...
> 
> Originally Posted by Cleo38
> They were happy being indoor previously & didn't show any interest in going out but they are now so I do my best to keep them safe but I really don't believe that safety should be the main consideration all the time - quality of life is.
> 
> It indeed works both ways!


Indeed it does. You may not like being told that you don't care for your pets because you let them out Cleo38 so imagine how we feel being told we don't care for out pets because we give them NO QUALITY OF LIFE! If you can't take it, don't dish it!:tongue_smilie:


----------



## Sacrechat

RAINYBOW said:


> Lovely  but i have to agree with some that i dont see where people have said all indoor cats have bored unfulfilled lives, i think that is what you think people think. .


Then you need to go back through the thread and reread, if you have a week or two to spare, because there have been numerous comments on not wanting their pets to be bored or unhappy so they let them out. Ergo our pets must be bored and unhappy because we keep them in. It may not have been said indirectly but indirectly infered. However, rather than whinge about it, we continue to put forward our point of view whereas those who let their cats roam just can't seem to stop crying over it, for some reason.


----------



## Cleo38

Sacremist said:


> Indeed it does. You may not like being told that you don't care for your pets because you let them out Cleo38 so imagine how we feel being told we don't care for out pets because we give them NO QUALITY OF LIFE! If you can't take it, don't dish it!:tongue_smilie:


Don't be pathetic 

If you had read my posts you would see that I have had both indoor & outdoor cats.

I meant that considering safety of ones pet as such high priority ALL the time isn't always what is best for them. I meant this to apply to MY cats saying that I believe that their quality of life has improved now they are outside. I still think for some cats this is still the case.

A cat run for 'as little as £250'??? For some people that is a fortune! Some people don't have enough money, space, etc yet are not irresponsible because they choose to let their cats out at all.

I am lucky that my garden is quite big but I still choose not to have a run & let my cats have their own choice of where they want to go. I do not consider myself neglecting them or not looking out for them all


----------



## Sacrechat

classixuk said:


> That's a terrible thing to say. Just because she labours the points like a single lady doesn't mean she's a sad, single old sack!
> 
> Lighten up. Even Aurelia admitted having trouble figuring out the quotes in the said post. It was funny to read and must have been even funnier for her to write!
> 
> Back to cats though...I know that my cat loves me because even though he can go anywhere he likes, he always comes back home to me everyday.


Then again, maybe he just likes the food you serve.:tongue_smilie:


----------



## Cleo38

Sacremist said:


> Then you need to go back through the thread and reread, if you have a week or two to spare, because there have been numerous comments on not wanting their pets to be bored or unhappy so they let them out. Ergo our pets must be bored and unhappy because we keep them in. It may not have been said indirectly but indirectly infered. However, rather than whinge about it, we continue to put forward our point of view whereas those who let their cats roam just can't seem to stop crying over it, for some reason.


You really have got a bee in your bonnet haven't you!!!  You obviously haven't read the post properly at all


----------



## Guest

Sacremist said:


> Indeed it does. You may not like being told that you don't care for your pets because you let them out Cleo38 so imagine how we feel being told we don't care for out pets because we give them NO QUALITY OF LIFE! If you can't take it, don't dish it!:tongue_smilie:


I am sure, with cats as with dogs, one persons view of 'quaity of life' could differ greatly , My ex cleaner for instance! then I would go as far as to say that her house is so cat friendly there is no room for a human in there! (she is a single lady her whole house is devoted to the cats! SHE DOES let them into the garden - under her full supervision, and they do venture into the field behind! I would have no hesitation whatsoever in saying that these cats have the very BEST life possible! That said - none have made old bones (they are all rescue persians by the way -and this lady is quite well known in the cat world)


----------



## Guest

Cleo38 said:


> Don't be pathetic
> 
> A cat run for 'as little as £250'??? For some people that is a fortune! Some people don't have enough money, space, etc yet are not irresponsible because they choose to let their cats out at all.
> 
> I am lucky that my garden is quite big but I still choose not to have a run & let my cats have their own choice of where they want to go. I do not consider myself neglecting them or not looking out for them all


About sums me up too!


----------



## Sacrechat

canuckjill said:


> In Canada cetain areas do have cat laws too. Where your cats are not to be at large. They have to be licensed also. I live in a rural area and its not the law here. They find it very hard to enforce in those cities with the cat law in place. Dogs also have to be licensed in the city. You get a reduction on price of the license if your dog is fixed, and a further reduction if your dog is microchipped. They do blitz's where they pick a neighbourhood and go door to door and you have to prove you dog is licensed if its not you have 14 days to rectify it before getting a ticket. Cats well most ( mine do go answer the door) don't meow when the bell rings so no one would know they were here except for the sign that says We got rid of the kids the cat was allergic...lol Cat laws seem to be harder to enforce than dog laws that is my point. It has been a interesting read and everyone has there own opinion and takes care of their cats as they seem fit just like we all have different opinions on child rearing, dog ownership, smoking etc.
> 
> I think this thread will be good for new cat owners as it explains the cons and pros of inside/outside cats and gives people some serious thinking to do. I like the idea of a cat run and if it came to it that would be my option with a catflap for inside/outside accessability.


This is what I have: a large cat run full of shelves, toys, scratching posts and safe plants. They have regular access to the run night and day. In summer, they sit in the run all night, bless them.


----------



## Sacrechat

tjk said:


> i have to say i really like this thread everyone has had a good say of what they feel and its good to see a proper discusion like grown ups !
> 
> and i think that yes in future genarations we probably will see an increase in cat runs and cat proofed gardens and who knows maybe one day the cat wont hunt but to be honest wouldnt a cat be a little odd without that instinct?
> even cats that never go outside hunt down all the annoying flies in the house


They will never lose the instinct to hunt because they use it as a form of play. They are like kittens constantly practising for the day when they might need those skills to fend for themselves. It's just that with domestic pets, we hope that day never has to come.


----------



## catsmum

Cleo38 said:


> A cat run for 'as little as £250'??? For some people that is a fortune! Some people don't have enough money, space, etc yet are not irresponsible because they choose to let their cats out at all.


sorry, if it ensures the safety and wellbeing of my cat, i dont find £250 that much at all, in fact i do find it a small amount

if my cats were going out to roam free i would need that much, and a lot more, put aside to cover vet fees and insurance excesses were they to fall prey to a car a yob or an agressive dog or poisoning


----------



## Sacrechat

thelioncub said:


> I'm only half way through this thread to know if anyone else has already mentioned this, but I would argue that it's not about the risk to the animal, it's about the risk to other humans.. Dogs roaming freely could possibly mean children torn up by aggressive breeds for no particular reason other than the dog was bored .. whereas a cat really isn't going to leap out and attack unless threatened. Dogs have been bred to be far less independent than cats and therefore have a much wider scope for causing trouble, simply because of their need to be controlled.


Asked and answered over and over and over and over again. See the posts on wildlife.


----------



## Guest

catsmum said:


> sorry, if it ensures the safety and wellbeing of my cat, i dont find £250 that much at all, in fact i do find it a small amount
> 
> if my cats were going out to roam free i would need that much, and a lot more, put aside to cover vet fees and insurance excesses were they to fall prey to a car a yob or an agressive dog or poisoning


I don't find that an outragious amount either! but cannot for one moment imagine my cat living in one! Those who have these runs - do their cats still come into the home? Or do they live and sleep in there?


----------



## Sacrechat

Chez87 said:


> Wow. Really? Then only those who are (relatively) well off should have cats? As I unfortunately don't have a spare £1200 (or more as my garden is actually very large). I feed my cats on the highest quality food I can buy, they have plenty of toys, cat trees etc, they are insured, but just because I don't have a huge wad of cash going spare to cat proof my garden I shouldn't have cats?


So are you saying that even though people work all day and this would mean leaving their dogs alone for hours on end is acceptable because they still have a right to a dog, even though it is not in the dog's best interest? Are you saying that people who cannot afford to take their pet to a vet should still have a pet, even if it means the pet suffering if it is injured or ill? After all, not having enough money to care for the pet should not matter, if I am understanding you correctly, so long as they get to have what they want.


----------



## catsmum

DoubleTrouble said:


> I don't find that an outragious amount either! but cannot for one moment imagine my cat living in one! Those who have these runs - do their cats still come into the home? Or do they live and sleep in there?


cats dont LIVE in cat runs or enclosed gardens. usually they just have a cat flap leading from the house to the cat run (or they climb thru an open window), so in and out all day and evening. mine never spend more than about an hour at a time outdoors. but they can go in and out all day as gthey please.


----------



## Sacrechat

Chez87 said:


> It's not though is it. As the difference between dogs and cat roaming the streets has been pointed out countless times on this thread.


Yes, it is the same only in a slightly different perspective. The danger to wildlife issue has also been pointed out several times on this thread.


----------



## Sacrechat

luvmydogs said:


> ok I'm sick of writing this now. There are as many reasons for keeping cats in as there are for keeping dogs in.


They don't want to hear it, so they are not reading it properly. They are choosing to conveniently ignore the wildlife issue because it does not suit their way of thinking.


----------



## Cleo38

catsmum said:


> sorry, if it ensures the safety and wellbeing of my cat, i dont find £250 that much at all, in fact i do find it a small amount
> 
> if my cats were going out to roam free i would need that much, and a lot more, put aside to cover vet fees and insurance excesses were they to fall prey to a car a yob or an agressive dog or poisoning


I have had cats all my life & never had one run over, poisoned or attacked. I have never had high vets bills (apart from one who needed treatement in the final weeks of her life - old age related) but do understand for some people £250 is alot of money.

I find the comments that sort of imply that if people won't spend alot of money on their animlas then they are not considering their welfare properly - I disagree with this view.

There are also numerous cats in rescues who are used to going outdoors. Are new prospective owners really to be expected to fork out hundreds (maybe more!) of pounds cat proofing their gardens or build expensive runs for them??? If so then I worry that these cats will remain in rescues rather than in loving homes.


----------



## Ren

If any mods are looking in I think this thread has run its course but maybe it should be stickied as it gives a(n extensive!) balanced argument to the indoor vs outdoor debate which may be helpful for new kitty owners. :001_smile:


----------



## Cleo38

Sacremist said:


> They don't want to hear it, so they are not reading it properly. They are choosing to conveniently ignore the wildlife issue because it does not suit their way of thinking.


But what is the 'wildlife issue' that you keep referring to? I have explained that my dog kills more wildlife than my cat - what about her????

I could argue that choosing to keep a cat indoors becuase of your views suits your way of thinking rather than the cat  .... but I won't!!


----------



## Sacrechat

suzy93074 said:


> I would say if there was no law against it - and had been previously let out for 7 years and then made to stay in then yes - unfortunately as already stated the law says dogs must not be allowed out unsupervised so there is really no argument imo about cats versus dogs - u cannot compare because one is illegal and the other is not.


Yes, we can argue about this because it has not always been illegal for dogs to roam free. How do you think these changes came about. It certainly wasn't by keeping quiet about the problems cause by dogs roaming free. It came about through debate and like minded people questioning the rights and wrongs of dogs roaming free, just as we are questioning the rights and wrongs of cats roaming free. The only way to bring about change is to raise the issue and educate and eventually educate parliament so that laws that do not exist now can and hopefully will exist in the future.


----------



## Sacrechat

Chez87 said:


> I already told you one reason which I'm sure applies to many more than just myself.


Trouble is you all keep repeating the one same reason which just doesn't hold water.


----------



## Amethyst

You know in someway I think the point I was trying make has been missed in many ways, even after all those pages ... no doubt in no small part to me 

I think I wanted to get across just why we (and I've done it myself) ...

Think it is acceptable to open the back door and allow a small animal say weighing 4 to 10lb outside to wander on it's own ... with all the discussed risks 

Now I know cats aren't helpless, but pretty d**n so when they meet a cars wheels, large dogs, animal abusers, traps, poisons, air guns ...

We do it, while (forget the law, danger to people) the thought of opening our door and seeing our dogs disappearing into the distance would strike terror into our hearts :crying: 

Now I know before it is said, cats and dogs are different, but they are both companion animals, that we hopefully love and cherish as part of our family 
... yet we are (or were) happy to let them go walk about for hours on end ... it's very strange! 

I know I'm not making sense to most, so I'll just add that PERSONALLY I don't think anything beats knowing where your cat is 24/7


----------



## Amethyst

Cleo38 said:


> I could argue that choosing to keep a cat indoors becuase of your views suits your way of thinking rather than the cat  .... but I won't!!


And I could argue ... but I won't .. that exactly the same could be said about those who let them roam


----------



## Guest

Sacremist said:


> Yes, we can argue about this because it has not always been illegal for dogs to roam free. How do you think these changes came about. It certainly wasn't by keeping quiet about the problems cause by dogs roaming free. It came about through debate and like minded people questioning the rights and wrongs of dogs roaming free, just as we are questioning the rights and wrongs of cats roaming free. The only way to bring about change is to raise the issue and educate and eventually educate parliament so that laws that do not exist now can and hopefully will exist in the future.


but unfortunately since the laws relating to dog ownership have been introdcued I do honestly believe that the UK has become less dog friendly!

You never used to hear of people being taking to court and in some cases losing their dogs because they were were barking .

also council housing used to accept two dogs I believe it was!


----------



## Guest

This thread has been an interesting read.


----------



## Guest

Sacremist said:


> Trouble is you all keep repeating the one same reason which just doesn't hold water.


I think, with respect , that as there are no laws forcing cat owners to keep their cats in that the choice in entirely up to them! And consequently they do not have to explain to anyone why they have made the decision to allow their cats to roam! Just the same as those who have choosen to keep their cats in do not have to provide an explaination as to why either!
Now that really is me done on this one!


----------



## Guest

Rainybows! T'is your round! get em in!


----------



## Sacrechat

lymorelynn said:


> Just want to add - it's easier to dog proof a garden than cat-proof one too.


Not much more expensive though. I paid as much for my fencing to dog-proof my garden as I did for my cat run which is very large and full of climbing frames designed to mimic trees.


----------



## classixuk

Sacremist said:


> Then again, maybe he just likes the food you serve.:tongue_smilie:


I'm not sure that's the case. Allegedly he's out there killing all the wildlife he can get his hands on and devastating the eco system!
 :tongue_smilie:

Can't stop...must dash off to the reptile forum to berate people for keeping a foreign species to this land that requires rodents to be bred and killed for food. Don't they realise that if they weren't so selfish there would be more mice?:


----------



## Sacrechat

laurahair said:


> I can afford to catproof my garden but can't afford to buy my own house, so do you think that as i am not allowed to catproof my garden i should get rid of my cats?
> 
> As it happens they are indoor cats, but have not always been-we changed when we moved near to a busy road from a very quiet semi-rural cul-de-sac.


I don't think luvmydogs was saying that at all.


----------



## Sacrechat

Cleo38 said:


> But there are here though


And there should be for cats.


----------



## Amethyst

DoubleTrouble said:


> I think, with respect , that as there are no laws forcing cat owners to keep their cats in that the choice in entirely up to them! And consequently they do not have to explain to anyone why they have made the decision to allow their cats to roam!
> Now that really is me done on this one!


I agree no one is obliged to explain anything ... but it's a forum and the original post was an "invitation" you could say to discuss the topic, I don't think anyone has been demanding explanations per se 

There's no obligation to join in ... now go and have a glass of something nice 

I am sure nobody doubts you love your cat!


----------



## Sacrechat

DoubleTrouble said:


> you're fighting a losing battle! I've tried a few times and I can CATagorically say! That sense of humour died pages back!
> 
> 
> T'is getting scarey now! even I am peeing my pants


Ewww! I wondered what the smell was!:tongue_smilie:


----------



## Ren

classixuk said:


> I'm not sure that's the case. Allegedly he's out there killing all the wildlife he can get his hands on and devastating the eco system!
> :tongue_smilie:
> 
> Can't stop...must dash off to the reptile forum to berate people for keeping a foreign species to this land that requires rodents to be bred and killed for food. Don't they realise that if they weren't so selfish there would be more mice?:


Ugh... *facepalm*. With all due respect I think that this post was a bit much. I don't think you can be flippant about our wildlife considering the state it is in. None of us were saying that every cat is hellbent on destruction but it _does_ have an effect. It took ONE cat to destroy an entire species of bird on Stephens Island. :glare:


----------



## Guest

Amethyst said:


> I agree no one is obliged to explain anything ... but it's a forum and the original post was an "invitation" you could say to discuss the topic, I don't think anyone has been demanding explanations per se
> 
> There's no obligation to join in ... now go and have a glass of something nice
> 
> I am sure nobody doubts you love your cat!


bit late about joining in! been here all bloody day!
You don't think I walking off while this is still open do you


----------



## dougal22

DoubleTrouble said:


> I don't find that an outragious amount either! but cannot for one moment imagine my cat living in one! Those who have these runs - do their cats still come into the home? Or do they live and sleep in there?


My cats live in my home. They have the entire run of the house 24/7. The back door opens onto an 8ft high cat run, which is a timber built structure, with wire mesh and a polycarbonate roof so they can go out if it's raining and not get wet. I don't have a cat flap as I don't want them outside when I'm not at home. They love their outdoor space which is the size of a standard conservatory at the moment, soon to be extended to around 25ft long. The run has cat trees in, shelves of varying heights and when extended, will have some patio furniture so I can sit out there more (weather permitting of course). I wouldn't be comfortable with leaving my cats out there all night, despite it being secure. I wouldn't sleep out there, so I wouldn't expect my cats too 

Having read through the entire thread, I'm happy with my decision to keep my 3 pedigree cats as indoor cats, but with regards to people allowing them out, I say, each to their own. My only thought is that when an outdoor cat is run over, shot, poisoned etc etc, people should have a level of expectation for this to happen and they don't really have grounds to whinge about it as the risks are apparent. It's a decision you have to live with and if that's the choice of an outdoor owner, then it is *their* choice.


----------



## Cleo38

classixuk said:


> I'm not sure that's the case. Allegedly he's out there killing all the wildlife he can get his hands on and devastating the eco system!
> :tongue_smilie:
> 
> Can't stop...must dash off to the reptile forum to berate people for keeping a foreign species to this land that requires rodents to be bred and killed for food. Don't they realise that if they weren't so selfish there would be more mice?:


LOL, mine are out too! Stalking the 'rare' breed of pheasant who comes to roost in our tree every night .... oh hold on, he's an alien to this country so it must ok to go & savage Johnny Foreigner as he could be seen as a threat to our eco system


----------



## Sacrechat

DoubleTrouble said:


> Can we have pictures please?


I'll think about it.


----------



## noushka05

Cleo38 said:


> But what is the 'wildlife issue' that you keep referring to? I have explained that my dog kills more wildlife than my cat - what about her????
> 
> I could argue that choosing to keep a cat indoors becuase of your views suits your way of thinking rather than the cat  .... but I won't!!


my sibes are efficient hunters (the breed is primitive and has innate hunting instincts) one of the reasons i and other responsible husky owners keep them under control, my gundogs,terriers and mongrels were never a problem and always allowed off lead cant recall them killing anything thank the lord:tongue_smilie:, so i believe your example is probably one of the exceptions to the rule and hence why cats are classed as an invasive species and dogs arnt(although in some parts of the world they most likely are,where they have gone feral) also i would expect your dog would only be loose when accompanied by you so you should have some control and wouldnt have as much time to 'hunt' as a cat that comes goes.

so anyway the cat comes in at 38 in the worlds 100 worst invasive species the dog is not even mentioned:nono:

more info on their impact....they can outnumber and compete with native predators. Domestic cats eat many of the same animals that native predators do. When present in large numbers, cats can reduce the availability of prey for native predators, such as hawks and weasels


----------



## Guest

Sacremist said:


> Ewww! I wondered what the smell was!:tongue_smilie:


Best all be grateful I weren't pooing myself!
Else the thread would have cleared! long ago!


----------



## Sacrechat

noushka05 said:


> well i for one am passionate about wildlife and conservtion so i will battle to the death on this subject...but i have to say this has been a pretty amicable debate compared to the last time i expressed my views on this subject on another forum im a member on....one stoopid clown on there resorted to calling me a cat hater fgs :.


 They obviously felt they were losing too. :tongue_smilie:


----------



## Amethyst

DoubleTrouble said:


> bit late about joining in! been here all bloody day!
> You don't think I walking off while this is still open do you


Are you here for the night 

It's been "funny" talking about this subject and brought a lot of memories up about my own cats and the waifs and strays that we got to know 

Miss my cats, been about 3 years since we lost the last oldie ... the only thing I don't miss are the cat trays


----------



## Guest

noushka05 said:


> my sibes are efficient hunters (the breed is primitive and has innate hunting instincts) one of the reasons i and other responsible husky owners keep them under control, my gundogs,terriers and mongrels were never a problem and always allowed off lead cant recall them killing anything thank the lord:tongue_smilie:, so i believe your example is probably one of the exceptions to the rule and hence why cats are classed as an invasive species and dogs arnt(in some parts of the world they most likely are,where they have gone feral) also i would expect your dog would only be loose when accompanied by you so you should have some control and wouldnt have as much time to 'hunt' as a cat that comes goes.
> 
> so anyway the cat comes in at 38 in the worlds 100 worst invasive species the dog is not even mentioned:nono:
> 
> more info on their impact....they can outnumber and compete with native predators. Domestic cats eat many of the same animals that native predators do. When present in large numbers, cats can reduce the availability of prey for native predators, such as hawks and weasels


no disrepect for you figures Noush! As sure you know what you are talking about! But somehow that just don't quite add up to me! What about all the dogs that are used to varies hunting pastime, be it rabbit catching, hare coursing, or whatever! Could it be possible that the dogs could have been viewed by 'the breed' so have not made the top 100?


----------



## Guest

Amethyst said:


> Are you here for the night
> 
> It's been "funny" talking about this subject and brought a lot of memories up about my own cats and the waifs and strays that we got to know
> 
> Miss my cats, been about 3 years since we lost the last oldie ... the only thing I don't miss are the cat trays


I am full of good intentions! I really did mean to move on! BUT now there is football on the telly


----------



## noushka05

DoubleTrouble said:


> no disrepect for you figures Noush! As sure you know what you are talking about! But somehow that just don't quite add up to me! What about all the dogs that are used to varies hunting pastime, be it rabbit catching, hare coursing, or whatever! Could it be possible that the dogs could have been viewed by 'the breed' so have not made the top 100?


errrm no theres no mistake we're talking about an animal that hunts unchecked not one who was developed to help man catch his food lol


----------



## noushka05

Sacremist said:


> They obviously felt they were losing too. :tongue_smilie:


haha yes thats what i thought


----------



## Sacrechat

DoubleTrouble said:


> i don't consider it cruel! it is what they (well mine at least) are used to! As I have said before my current cat is 17 - I could not keep him in I know! If my bathroom window is open he will go onto the the garage roof! he is like a third dog and follows the dogs around! I do however ensure he is in EVERY night without fail! AND! we have now blocked up the cat flap so that he can only go out when WE open the door!
> 
> and how the hell would I cat proof my garden?


There are sites which sell these rotating wooden pole thingies which you attach to the top of your fencing.

Home

Alternatively, you can build a large cat run and kit it out with stuff which imitates trees and things.

Cat Enclosures Cat nets Cat Netting Cat Runs

There are lots of ways to do it.


----------



## Guest

sixty one pages and I am still chasing my tail!If I were a dog you would have put me out of my misery

Seriously guys! I am leaving you now! seeing a rainybows Aint come to fetch me I am going to sniff around to see who else I can annoy


----------



## classixuk

Ren said:


> Ugh... *facepalm*. With all due respect I think that this post was a bit much. I don't think you can be flippant about our wildlife considering the state it is in. None of us were saying that every cat is hellbent on destruction but it _does_ have an effect. It took ONE cat to destroy an entire species of bird on Stephens Island. :glare:


I'd rather have a cat in the garden than a mouse in my food cupboard.

Cats and humans have had a mutually beneficial relationship for thousands of years based on the cat's ability to control the population levels of vermin and rodents. They are very effective at their job.

Did you know, that until recently, it was still mandatory for every ship in the Navy to have a "ship cat"?

Cats did not evolve with humans based on their ability to suck our financial resources and demand climbing frames...and that's how it's been for all time.


----------



## Guest

CAN SOMEONE STOP the thread please I WANT TO GET OFF!


----------



## RAINYBOW

Sacremist said:


> Then you need to go back through the thread and reread, if you have a week or two to spare, because there have been numerous comments on not wanting their pets to be bored or unhappy so they let them out. Ergo our pets must be bored and unhappy because we keep them in. It may not have been said indirectly but indirectly infered. However, rather than whinge about it, we continue to put forward our point of view whereas those who let their cats roam just can't seem to stop crying over it, for some reason.


DITTO. Sorry but both sides are guilty of this on this thread, there is as much "inference" and some direct statements about the irresponsibility, laziness blah blah of allowing a cat out without actually acknowledging the quite extensive reasoning some have given for their decisions :tongue_smilie:



Sacremist said:


> They don't want to hear it, so they are not reading it properly. They are choosing to conveniently ignore the wildlife issue because it does not suit their way of thinking.


"There is none so deaf as those who don't want to hear" and that is now occuring on BOTH sides of this debate which generally suggests a debate has run it's course TBH.

A debate isn't about either side "winning" or "losing", personally i think thats quite an immature way of viewing debating. It is about an exchange of opinions to gain a greater understanding, it's very unlikely with a subject so divided you will change anyones mind so there comes a point at which most will bow out gracefully, you however seem intent on poking away with a big stick to get a bigger reaction :tongue_smilie:.

I think both sides have made it quite clear where they stand and have given full and valid reasons for their own personal choices.

Maybe we should see what the response is on the dog section to the suggestion that ALL dogs should be kept indoors with an outdoor run A) for their safety and B) because of the impact they have on local wildlife 

Fundamentally (other than the legal issue) thats the significant difference between cats and dogs. Dogs get walked (generally) cats don't 

I wouldn't let my dog out because he WOULD be killed within an hour because he doesn't have a fraction of the savvy my cat had. I wouldn't have let my cat out if there had been the SAME risk of death or injury but there was nothing like the risk involved and that it why IMO it was responsible of me to let the cat out but would be irresponsible to let the dog out.

Oh and i didn't cat proof the garden because IMO none of my gardens have been big enough either.

I got my cat as an adult cat who had free roamed on a farm for most of his life, if you really believe it would have been "better or kinder" for HIM to be kept inside then sorry but you are wrong IMO.


----------



## Amethyst

classixuk said:


> Did you know, that until recently, it was still mandatory for every ship in the Navy to have a "ship cat"?


My father was an engineer in Merchant Navy and he often spoke of ship's cats, I think they only ever seemed to be one per ship. It was quite a few years ago and it makes you wonder about quarantine laws 

I know they once lost one in port and another became pregnant, so must have been ashore 

How times change


----------



## noushka05

DoubleTrouble said:


> CAN SOMEONE STOP the thread please I WANT TO GET OFF!


well jog on then kitty


----------



## Sacrechat

KathrynH said:


> For some reason you seem to have it in for me and are quoting a lot of my posts so i will repeat myself again, not once have i spouted about DANGEROUS dogs, it was cat's on the streets v's dogs on the street and the aspect of that happening obviously there are dangers!!!
> Please do not try and twist things that i have said to make me out to be saying dogs are all DANGEROUS!!!
> 
> What i am saying is "dogs do not roam the streets as they are walked by there owners etc, they are taken to the park and let of there leads and run and play.
> 
> Can you imagine the world taking there cats out on leads round the park for an exercise.
> 
> People really need to get a grip i think on REALITY, i understand the whole conservation aspect but until the law changes that cats are not allowed out which by the way will NEVER happen believe all you want people, then my cat will go out, just for the record my cat couldnt even catch a fly so no chance of it ever killing any wildlife believe me.
> 
> This was a nice thread and thank you for bringing it up amethyst but it has just gone nuts now so as the rest i will not be posting anymore.
> 
> But thank you all for the debate and the interesting issues everyone has raised on here, it has made good reading.
> 
> Kath x


I don't know why you think I am attacking you, in particular, I'm responding to a large variety of people's posts. Blimey, talk about paranoia! Perhaps you had better bow out of the thread if you can't cope with people disagreeing with you.

Don't forget to pick up your toys and put them back in the cot on your way out.:tongue_smilie:


----------



## Guest

noushka05 said:


> well jog on then kitty


Can't Noush! T'is going too fast for me"! T'is like being on the waltzer and I won't jump off till it slows down!


----------



## classixuk

Amethyst said:


> My father was an engineer in Merchant Navy and he often spoke of ship's cats, I think they only ever seemed to be one per ship. It was quite a few years ago and it makes you wonder about quarantine laws
> 
> I know they once lost one in port and another became pregnant, so must have been ashore
> 
> How times change


Good point! Never thought about the quarantine laws.

I wonder if "ship cats" were exempt?


Crikey Amethyst, you sure know how to get a good thread going! I'm almost on the verge of writing a poem LOL


----------



## momentofmadness

Sacremist said:


> It may only be a matter of time before these conservationists request that parliament consider bringing out a law which prevents domestic cats from roaming as they have with dogs. *I don't think you are seeing the bigger picture.*


:lol: And how will they police it.. they can't even keep control of the ban on hunting. They can't even stop dog fighting.. They can't even stop illegal Drugs in this country... Paedo's get let out in the street next to you... People drive round with no tax insurance... We have illegal immigrants here working... Under age drinkers.. drink drivers.... Murderers... And the list goes on.. Take a look at the bigger picture.. They want to fine parents who take their kids out of school for holidays.. They try to stop them over fishing the sea's.. They try to make people keep to the speed limit.. They try to stop badger baiting.. You can't have a gun without a licence, I bet there are loads round here.. Your not allowed to carry knives, but you know in January my mate got stabbed I was there.. I saw the whole thing I tried to stop it.. after he stabbed my mate he ran off.. I rang 999 it took an hour for the police to get to us.. The lad was still running round the streets with a 6" knife.. It took a good few weeks to catch up with him..Im in court in June as a key witness.. He is has pleaded not guilty.. with 4 witnesses! Take a look at the bigger picture.. 
I live in a world that the humans make the rules.. And you know there isn't the people out there to make sure these rules are upheld!


----------



## Guest

Sacremist said:


> I don't know why you think I am attacking you, in particular, I'm responding to a large variety of people's posts. Blimey, talk about paranoia! Perhaps you had better bow out of the thread if you can't cope with people disagreeing with you.
> 
> Don't forget to pick up your toys and put them back in the cot on your way out.:tongue_smilie:


Hey! this is a nice thread! we are on course for the guiness book of records you know! would be a great shame it it went tits up!


----------



## Sacrechat

DoubleTrouble said:


> We have grey squirrels in outr garden! my cat does not even bother with them! have seen several squashed on the road though! Can#t imagine many cats catching squirells! go on! prove me wrong!


I couldn't say. We also have grey squirrels but my cats can't get near them because they are in run and no cats come into my garden because my dog won't let them in. :001_smile:


----------



## Guest

Sacremist said:


> I couldn't say. We also have grey squirrels but my cats can't get near them because they are in run and no cats come into my garden because my dog won't let them in. :001_smile:


Out of interest what dogs do you have?
And do you find that your cats always TRY to follow them around? when they are able that is!


----------



## Sacrechat

Cleo38 said:


> Tbh I don't think anyone here who lets their cat outside has said keeping them indoors is cruel. Just as I don't think keeping a dog leashed is cruel but it is all about personal choice & what we choose to do for our pets.
> 
> I'm still not convinced by the impact on wildlife at all, I have read numerous studies & am not convinced that cat ownership has a big enough impact compared with other factors.
> 
> Some post keep banging on about this & about a law to 'protect wildlife' - are you going to extend this to dogs off lead then? As I said one of my dogs does dig up rats/mice/moles, etc & does kill them when she runs around in the fields. The farmer I was telling loves this & wishes she's get the 'bloody rabbits' (his words) as well.


We keep banging on about wildlife because others keep banging on about dangerous dogs. Just returning the favour.


----------



## Sacrechat

Cleo38 said:


> Don't be pathetic
> 
> If you had read my posts you would see that I have had both indoor & outdoor cats.
> 
> I meant that considering safety of ones pet as such high priority ALL the time isn't always what is best for them. I meant this to apply to MY cats saying that I believe that their quality of life has improved now they are outside. I still think for some cats this is still the case.
> 
> A cat run for 'as little as £250'??? For some people that is a fortune! Some people don't have enough money, space, etc yet are not irresponsible because they choose to let their cats out at all.
> 
> I am lucky that my garden is quite big but I still choose not to have a run & let my cats have their own choice of where they want to go. I do not consider myself neglecting them or not looking out for them all


I could respond to this by throwing out a personal insult to you and probably get this thread closed, but on this occasion, I won't stoop to your own low standard. I don't consider myself pathetic but I do consider you rude. And you DID intimate that letting cats outside to roam free gave them a better quality of life, ergo those of use who do not let them roam free must be abusing them in some way.


----------



## suzy93074

I dont think all dogs if let out would be dangerous I have said that they are more excitable than cats who normally shy away from heavy activity - 

Im not disputing there are some valid points about having indoor cats and IF I were to get another kitten its something I would seriously think about - however my cat at present has been going out far too long to be changed - I minimise his risks and try to minimise what he does outside - I have a litter tray outside for him to use too - ultimately its our own choice what we do and neither party are bad owners for their choices


----------



## Sacrechat

Cleo38 said:


> You really have got a bee in your bonnet haven't you!!!  You obviously haven't read the post properly at all


Oh I read it perfectly fine. Not my problem if you can't handle someone disagreeing with you.:tongue_smilie:


----------



## momentofmadness

luvmydogs said:


> Thanks for replying. As MOM rightly thought, I am now going to say you shouldn't have a cat if you don't have the means to catproof your garden and keep it safe. Thats my opinion.
> 
> So = next question - of those who can afford it, why don't you?


You see that is what I thought the people who are adamant a cat should be kept in an enclosed space...

They are not my opinions and to be honest.. I can't say I agree..



Chez87 said:


> Wow. Really? Then only those who are (relatively) well off should have cats? As I unfortunately don't have a spare £1200 (or more as my garden is actually very large). I feed my cats on the highest quality food I can buy, they have plenty of toys, cat trees etc, they are insured, but just because I don't have a huge wad of cash going spare to cat proof my garden I shouldn't have cats?


Exactly... I dont and in time maybe I will get a cat.. But I wont be spending a fortune to have my garden enclosed..



suzy93074 said:


> I cannot cat proof as it is communal gardens - IF I had a private garden that was big enough to house one then it is something I would think about for any future cats I am to have - but for Jinks he will stay as is because that is what he is accustomed to and to change it now would not make him happy.


Exactly so why shouldn't you own a cat.....



luvmydogs said:


> "I have a dog but I can't afford to put a fence up in my garden so I'll let him roam the streets" = its exactly the same to me.


I have never moved into a house that doesn't already have fencing up.. and fencing to keep a dog in is different to fencing you would need to keep a cat in..



luvmydogs said:


> ok I'm sick of writing this now. There are as many reasons for keeping cats in as there are for keeping dogs in.


And its up to each person what they chose to do.. 



luvmydogs said:


> I feel exactly the same way, as if I'm banging my head against a brick wall....:mad2:


Well you will do because we are all human and can make up our own minds.. 



luvmydogs said:


> So do you believe I should let my well adjusted dogs out? It would make them happy.... :


And no I dont think you should..
If your in the UK go for it.. see what happens to your dogs and how much it costs to get them back..


luvmydogs said:


> But there is no law against it here. So you think I should let them out? You think people in Uk should be able to let them out if there was no law?


Personally I wouldn't let my dogs roam if there was no law.. My dogs are a lovely breed and reckon it wouldn't be too long before some lovely person picked them up. Or maybe as they are big dogs.. Id have the police knocking on my door saying they were scaring people.. Na. I like my dogs where I can see them..



Aurelia said:


> I was hoping this would remain a friendly debate. I think this will be where I exit.
> 
> It's been interesting folks :thumbup:


So was I and to be honest everyone was doing so well.. he reaon I ignored that question the first time was because it was obvious people would be offended with some answers..



luvmydogs said:


> I'm sorry if you think I'm being unfriendly. Friendship doesn't really come into it for me. I still don't understand why people don't catproof their gardens.


You dont have to understand.. Cause really it isn't your buisness what other people do or how other people keep their pets.. 
Sorry Im quoting you constantly but you are the one that is catching my eye with your posts.. 



luvmydogs said:


> LMAO :lol: *I don't let my dog out by itself because it'd get run over/lost/stolen/into fights/etc/etc* - there are no laws regarding dogs here.


But I think the question was originally aimed at people here.. You do what you like in your country.. The majority of us I would like to think are law abiding citizens..


----------



## Sacrechat

DoubleTrouble said:


> I don't find that an outragious amount either! but cannot for one moment imagine my cat living in one! Those who have these runs - do their cats still come into the home? Or do they live and sleep in there?


We built our own cat run and it is attached to the house. It takes up about one quarter of the garden. My cats have access to it 24 hours a day through a catflap in the utility room door.


----------



## Sacrechat

Cleo38 said:


> I have had cats all my life & never had one run over, poisoned or attacked. I have never had high vets bills (apart from one who needed treatement in the final weeks of her life - old age related) .......


Well, aren't you lucky!


----------



## Sacrechat

Cleo38 said:


> But what is the 'wildlife issue' that you keep referring to? I have explained that my dog kills more wildlife than my cat - what about her????
> 
> I could argue that choosing to keep a cat indoors becuase of your views suits your way of thinking rather than the cat  .... but I won't!!


So you want me and others like noushka to go over the whole thing again just for you because you can't be bothered to go back and read.


----------



## Cleo38

Sacremist said:


> Oh I read it perfectly fine. Not my problem if you can't handle someone disagreeing with you.:tongue_smilie:


I can handle people disagreeing with me with valid arguements - you have not provided those though. You seem to think people are attacking you; they are not, they are expressing opinions.

As for the studies that Noush (not you btw) have provided I have looked at them & have also found conflicting ones. This debate goes on all the time on the WildaboutBritain forum so I've read quite a few for & againts cat onwership thanks

As for personal insults go ahead - I've probably heard worse!!!


----------



## dougal22

momentofmadness said:


> *My dogs are a lovely breed and reckon it wouldn't be too long before some lovely person picked them up*. Or maybe as they are big dogs.. Id have the police knocking on my door saying they were scaring people.. Na. I like my dogs where I can see them..


My cats are a lovely breed; very beautiful, show quality, much loved members of my family. They wouldn't last five minutes outside, hence my decision to keep them as safe as I possibly can


----------



## MatildaG

I'd just like to point out to those who think you can't take cats out for walks - I know people who do and love it!


----------



## Sacrechat

DoubleTrouble said:


> but unfortunately since the laws relating to dog ownership have been introdcued I do honestly believe that the UK has become less dog friendly!
> 
> You never used to hear of people being taking to court and in some cases losing their dogs because they were were barking .
> 
> also council housing used to accept two dogs I believe it was!


Well, to be honest, I can't really argue one way or the other with this because I haven't witnessed, experienced or read anything either way, so you may be right. I just wouldn't know.:001_smile:


----------



## Sacrechat

shetlandlover said:


> This thread has been an interesting read.


I thought so too, if only people would stop spitting their dummies out just because some debates strongly and they don't like it. Shame really!


----------



## thedogsmother

Just to say Ive been on both sides of this argument, until recently 3 of my 4 cats were outdoor cats, I thought it was unfair to keep them cooped up and had visions of them staring out longingly at the 'free' cats. Then cats loclly started dissapearing and some come home poisoned to die, these were cats who lived very close to my house and we are talking about a lot of cats, so mine are now indoor cats, the first few months were shocking, they were constantly trying to get out but now they are happy and if anything they play more than they used to, I think it definately helps to have other cats for them to play with but they are very happy cats and Im a lot happier knowing they arent going to come to harm from some sick individual who obviously hates cats. On another note this year for the first time Ive seen birds in the garden and the frogs are back too, my cats were always bringing young and baby birds into the house but the birds are managing to raise their young this year. I do think it is and always should be personal choice as to whether you think your area is safe for your cats to be outdoors but indoor cats dont suffer either.


----------



## dougal22

MatildaG said:


> I'd just like to point out to those who think you can't take cats out for walks - I know people who do and love it!


My cats go for a walk on a harness. Only around the garden though


----------



## Sacrechat

Cleo38 said:


> LOL, mine are out too! Stalking the 'rare' breed of pheasant who comes to roost in our tree every night .... oh hold on, he's an alien to this country so it must ok to go & savage Johnny Foreigner as he could be seen as a threat to our eco system


Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit!


----------



## Cleo38

Sacremist said:


> Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit!


I'm quite fond of it myself


----------



## momentofmadness

Sacremist said:


> We built our own cat run and it is attached to the house. It takes up about one quarter of the garden. My cats have access to it 24 hours a day through a catflap in the utility room door.


So it isn't a great deal of space.. or do you have a humongous garden..


----------



## Sacrechat

classixuk said:


> I'd rather have a cat in the garden than a mouse in my food cupboard.
> 
> Cats and humans have had a mutually beneficial relationship for thousands of years based on the cat's ability to control the population levels of vermin and rodents. They are very effective at their job.
> 
> Did you know, that until recently, it was still mandatory for every ship in the Navy to have a "ship cat"?
> 
> Cats did not evolve with humans based on their ability to suck our financial resources and demand climbing frames...and that's how it's been for all time.


But a cat does not need to roam free in order to keep mice from your house and food cupboard. Indoor cats do the same job. As for mice in my garden, I say live and let live. They are doing me no harm.:001_smile:


----------



## classixuk

Sacremist said:


> Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit!


It reads as though you have a problem with Cleo, Sacremist.

Please don't spoil the thread. It's ran all day quite smoothly.


----------



## classixuk

Sacremist said:


> But a cat does not need to roam free in order to keep mice from your house and food cupboard. Indoor cats do the same job. As for mice in my garden, I say live and let live. They are doing me no harm.:001_smile:


A mouse in my garden soon becomes 10 mice in my house. Anyway, my cat is helping the wildlife by picking off the weakest mice and leaving the stronger ones to survive.

He's doing his bit for Darwinism!


----------



## Cleo38

classixuk said:


> A mouse in my garden soon becomes 10 mice in my house. Anyway, my cat is helping the wildlife by picking off the weakest mice and leaving the stronger ones to survive.
> 
> He's doing his bit for Darwinism!


LOL, until we moved to the countryside I would never have considered killing mice/rats - that has changed now unfortunately as we need to control them.

I don't use any nasty poisons that may take a while to work & the cats are rubbish at this job luckily one of dogs loves it!


----------



## dougal22

classixuk said:


> It reads as though you have a problem with Cleo, Sacremist.


Evening all


----------



## momentofmadness

dougal22 said:


> Evening all


:lol: Dougal.. you have been very quiet.. Good evening..


----------



## Cleo38

dougal22 said:


> Evening all


Evening! 

Long thread now!!!


----------



## classixuk

Cleo38 said:


> LOL, until we moved to the countryside I would never have considered killing mice/rats - that has changed now unfortunately as we need to control them.
> 
> I don't use any nasty poisons that may take a while to work & the cats are rubbish at this job luckily one of dogs loves it!


I too never thought of them as a problem until I moved house (temporarily) while mine was getting refurbed.

OMG...the mess and the poop they leave everywhere. Even one of my Wii remotes is half nibbled.

Do you know, even to this day in my refurbed house, I cannot open the left hand corner cupboard in the kitchen without Tigger jumping in there for a look. He's now convinced that all mice live in the left hand corner cupboard of every kitchen! 

I was reading somewhere that rats and mice account for 20% of human quality grain being graded as unfit for consumption! Nevermind saving the odd sparrow...just think how many starving humans all that grain could feed if it weren't got at first by the rodents? It would probably solve the African crises within 12 months!


----------



## momentofmadness

Its funny.. How some people throw questions and there opinions at others.. But are not able to answer a simple question themselves..


----------



## Sacrechat

RAINYBOW said:


> DITTO. Sorry but both sides are guilty of this on this thread, there is as much "inference" and some direct statements about the irresponsibility, laziness blah blah of allowing a cat out without actually acknowledging the quite extensive reasoning some have given for their decisions :tongue_smilie:.


I actually wouldn't disagree with you on this point but since it was your side who started accusing us of making inferences first, we were just returning the favour. Seems you don't like it when the shoes on the other foot eh!:tongue_smilie:



RAINYBOW said:


> "There is none so deaf as those who don't want to hear" and that is now occuring on BOTH sides of this debate which generally suggests a debate has run it's course TBH.


And again I would agree unless, of course, this is your way of trying to have the last word and shut me up in which case you are wasting your breath because I will argue till I'm dead. I love a good debate.:tongue_smilie:



RAINYBOW said:


> This debate isn't about either side "winning" or "losing", personally i think thats quite an immature way of viewing debating. It is about an exchange of opinions to gain a greater understanding, it's very unlikely with a subject so divided you will change anyones mind so there comes a point at which most will bow out gracefully, you however seem intent on poking away with a big stick to get a bigger reaction :tongue_smilie:.


You are entitled to your opinion but quite frankly I think you are also very immature, after all, are you not now trying to poke me with a big stick? It tickles by the way so you are not poking very hard. It seems to me there are a lot of people on here who cannot cope when someone refuses to back out of a discussion. I am merely debating my point of view if you want to stoop to name calling like an infant then go ahead! Water off a ducks back![/QUOTE]



RAINYBOW said:


> I think both sides have made it quite clear where they stand and have given full and valid reasons for their own personal choices.


Yes, we all have but are you trying to make me shut up again? :nono: Don't you dare even think you can tell me to shut up!



RAINYBOW said:


> Maybe we should see what the response is on the dog section to the suggestion that ALL dogs should be kept indoors with an outdoor run A) for their safety and B) because of the impact they have on local wildlife


Why? What do you hope to achieve by this statement? I thought you wanted us all to shut up but here you are getting in your last opinion. Naughty! Naughty! Practise what you preach!



RAINYBOW said:


> Fundamentally (other than the legal issue) thats the significant difference between cats and dogs. Dogs get walked (generally) cats don't
> 
> I wouldn't let my dog out because he WOULD be killed within an hour because he doesn't have a fraction of the savvy my cat had. I wouldn't have let my cat out if there had been the SAME risk of death or injury but there was nothing like the risk involved and that it why IMO it was responsible of me to let the cat out but would be irresponsible to let the dog out.
> 
> Oh and i didn't cat proof the garden because IMO none of my gardens have been big enough either.
> 
> I got my cat as an adult cat who had free roamed on a farm for most of his life, if you really believe it would have been "better or kinder" for HIM to be kept inside then sorry but you are wrong IMO.


So still not practising what you preach! Still wanting the last word! Okay since you are continuing, I will too. How immature of me or should that be you?


----------



## dougal22

momentofmadness said:


> :lol: Dougal.. you have been very quiet.. Good evening..


Oh no MOM, surely you haven't missed my minor contributions to the thread


----------



## momentofmadness

classixuk said:


> I was reading somewhere that even to this day, rats and mice account for 20% of human quality grain being graded as unfit for purpose! Nevermind saving the odd sparrow...just think how many starving humans all that grain could feed if it weren't got at first by the rodents? It would probably solve the African crises within 12 months!


Id be surprised if it was only 20% having kept the neds on a farm that produces grain.. What I used to se was shocking.. and there is no way to keep a fields worth of grain safe from critters.. 

And I know Im off topic..


----------



## dougal22

momentofmadness said:


> Its funny.. How some people throw questions and there opinions at others.. But are not able to answer a simple question themselves..


Care to clarify? I'm kinda lost :blink:


----------



## momentofmadness

dougal22 said:


> Oh no MOM, surely you haven't missed my minor contributions to the thread


Well I only got here an hour ago.. But did pop in my diary you were missing.. :lol:


----------



## momentofmadness

dougal22 said:


> Care to clarify? I'm kinda lost :blink:


Dougal if you do get time.. and lots of time to read this thread.. You will see what I mean..  and it wasn't aimed at you not replying to me as soon as I posted..


----------



## classixuk

momentofmadness said:


> Id be surprised if it was only 20% having kept the neds on a farm that produces grain.. What I used to se was shocking.. and there is no way to keep a fields worth of grain safe from critters..
> 
> And I know Im off topic..


You won't be if you quickly edit your post and add, "so thank goodness for outdoor cats" on the end of it! LOL


----------



## dougal22

momentofmadness said:


> Well I only got here an hour ago.. *But did pop in my diary you were missing*.. :lol:


I should hope so too. I am very important you know


----------



## momentofmadness

dougal22 said:


> I should hope so too. I am very important you know


We are all important.. in our own rights..


----------



## dougal22

momentofmadness said:


> Dougal if you do get time.. and lots of time to read this thread.. You will see what I mean..  and it wasn't aimed at you not replying to me as soon as I posted..


I've read it all; my whole evening has been consumed with reading this thread as there's nothing on TV 

And I put my 10 cents worth in way back. Seems like you missed reading my post/opinion. Shame


----------



## RAINYBOW

Sacremist said:


> I actually wouldn't disagree with you on this point but since it was your side who started accusing us of making inferences first, we were just returning the favour. Seems you don't like it when the shoes on the other foot eh!:tongue_smilie:
> 
> And again I would agree unless, of course, this is your way of trying to have the last word and shut me up in which case you are wasting your breath because I will argue till I'm dead. I love a good debate.:tongue_smilie:
> 
> You are entitled to your opinion but quite frankly I think you are also very immature, after all, are you not now trying to poke me with a big stick? It tickles by the way so you are not poking very hard. It seems to me there are a lot of people on here who cannot cope when someone refuses to back out of a discussion. I am merely debating my point of view if you want to stoop to name calling like an infant then go ahead! Water off a ducks back!


Yes, we all have but are you trying to make me shut up again? :nono: Don't you dare even think you can tell me to shut up!

Why? What do you hope to achieve by this statement? I thought you wanted us all to shut up but here you are getting in your last opinion. Naughty! Naughty! Practise what you preach!

So still not practising what you preach! Still wanting the last word! Okay since you are continuing, I will too. How immature of me or should that be you?[/QUOTE]

:crazy: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

OK i am laughing now, i just hope you are too.


----------



## classixuk

Sacremist said:


> I actually wouldn't disagree with you on this point but since it was your side who started accusing us of making inferences first, we were just returning the favour. Seems you don't like it when the shoes on the other foot eh!:tongue_smilie:
> 
> And again I would agree unless, of course, this is your way of trying to have the last word and shut me up in which case you are wasting your breath because I will argue till I'm dead. I love a good debate.:tongue_smilie:
> 
> You are entitled to your opinion but quite frankly I think you are also very immature, after all, are you not now trying to poke me with a big stick? It tickles by the way so you are not poking very hard. It seems to me there are a lot of people on here who cannot cope when someone refuses to back out of a discussion. I am merely debating my point of view if you want to stoop to name calling like an infant then go ahead! Water off a ducks back!
> 
> Yes, we all have but are you trying to make me shut up again? :nono: Don't you dare even think you can tell me to shut up!
> 
> Why? What do you hope to achieve by this statement? I thought you wanted us all to shut up but here you are getting in your last opinion. Naughty! Naughty! Practise what you preach!
> 
> So still not practising what you preach! Still wanting the last word! Okay since you are continuing, I will too. How immature of me or should that be you?


Did you send your opinions on keeping cats indoors vs outdoors via PM? It's just it seems you posted your thoughts on everything else right here in the middle of the thread. Whoops. Must have gotten your posting screens mixed up.

What do you think about farm cats being able to keep the rodent population down? Could they do that from a run?


----------



## Sacrechat

momentofmadness said:


> :lol: And how will they police it.. they can't even keep control of the ban on hunting. They can't even stop dog fighting.. They can't even stop illegal Drugs in this country... Paedo's get let out in the street next to you... People drive round with no tax insurance... We have illegal immigrants here working... Under age drinkers.. drink drivers.... Murderers... And the list goes on.. Take a look at the bigger picture.. They want to fine parents who take their kids out of school for holidays.. They try to stop them over fishing the sea's.. They try to make people keep to the speed limit.. They try to stop badger baiting.. You can't have a gun without a licence, I bet there are loads round here.. Your not allowed to carry knives, but you know in January my mate got stabbed I was there.. I saw the whole thing I tried to stop it.. after he stabbed my mate he ran off.. I rang 999 it took an hour for the police to get to us.. The lad was still running round the streets with a 6" knife.. It took a good few weeks to catch up with him..Im in court in June as a key witness.. He is has pleaded not guilty.. with 4 witnesses! Take a look at the bigger picture..
> I live in a world that the humans make the rules.. And you know there isn't the people out there to make sure these rules are upheld!


We could ask this of any law as you have pointed out but it hasn't stopped those laws from being implemented so why not this one?


----------



## Sacrechat

DoubleTrouble said:


> Hey! this is a nice thread! we are on course for the guiness book of records you know! would be a great shame it it went tits up!


Fair enough, but why would someone assume I am attacking them in particular when I am clearly responding to a lot of people not just one? I am not singling out any one person, I am just putting forward my point of view but it seems I am not allowed to do so because if I do, I'm picking on them.


----------



## Cleo38

dougal22 said:


> I've read it all; my whole evening has been consumed with reading this thread as there's nothing on TV
> 
> And I put my 10 cents worth in way back. Seems like you missed reading my post/opinion. Shame


I'm waiting for new NCIS - should be on about 9pm so I only have a few mins left


----------



## Sacrechat

DoubleTrouble said:


> Out of interest what dogs do you have?
> And do you find that your cats always TRY to follow them around? when they are able that is!


I have one dog a Pomeranian but no the cats are not interested in the dog at all. I think she gets on their nerves.


----------



## Guest

Oh dear! I went to let the cat out and we have gone down hill ain't we just!


----------



## classixuk

DoubleTrouble said:


> Oh dear! I went to let the cat out and we have gone down hill ain't we just!


I think we need to start a new thread asking whether it's safe or ethical to let some of the forum members out on their own, nevermind just their cats.


----------



## Sacrechat

Cleo38 said:


> I can handle people disagreeing with me with valid arguements - you have not provided those though. You seem to think people are attacking you; they are not, they are expressing opinions.
> 
> As for the studies that Noush (not you btw) have provided I have looked at them & have also found conflicting ones. This debate goes on all the time on the WildaboutBritain forum so I've read quite a few for & againts cat onwership thanks
> 
> As for personal insults go ahead - I've probably heard worse!!!


I don't think people are attacking me. I am just putting forward my point of view. I think you are looking in a mirror, you are the one feeling attacked. I couldn't give a rats ass if you agree with me or not or if my arguments sway you or not. You mean feck all to me.


----------



## RAINYBOW

classixuk said:


> I think we need to start a new thread asking whether it's safe or ethical to let some of the forum members out on their own, nevermind just their cats.


I threatened to throw a full on tantrum in the Estate agents office today because i cant have the house i really want and someone suggested i might get sectioned if i did 

After the fortnight i have had i quite fancy a quiet spell


----------



## Guest

Sacremist said:


> Fair enough, but why would someone assume I am attacking them in particular when I am clearly responding to a lot of people not just one? I am not singling out any one person, I am just putting forward my point of view but it seems I am not allowed to do so because if I do, I'm picking on them.


Who said you were picking on anyone! Dress it up how you like! but the rules are quite clear - it is about personal insults and that was an outright attack towards Kath! I aint seem no other members punching below the belt! you have been the one slinging the mud! take you own advise and it you cant take it dont dish it out!


----------



## Cleo38

Sacremist said:


> I don't think people are attacking me. I am just putting forward my point of view. I think you are looking in a mirror, you are the one feeling attacked. *I couldn't give a rats ass if you agree with me or not or if my arguments sway you or not. You mean feck all to me*.


LOL, Really??? Thats' a such a shame, I thought we were getting on so well!!! :cryin:


----------



## Cleo38

DoubleTrouble said:


> Who said you were picking on anyone! Dress it up how you like! but the rules are quite clear - it is about personal insults and that was an outright attack towards Kath! I aint seem no other members punching below the belt! you have been the one slinging the mud! take you own advise and it you cant take it dont dish it out!


I think someone is up way past their bedtime


----------



## Sacrechat

Cleo38 said:


> I'm quite fond of it myself


Yes, I had noticed. It takes all sorts, I suppose. Not everyone can be as nice as me.:tongue_smilie:


----------



## momentofmadness

dougal22 said:


> I've read it all; my whole evening has been consumed with reading this thread as there's nothing on TV
> 
> And I put my 10 cents worth in way back. Seems like you missed reading my post/opinion. Shame


Your cats to you are like my dogs.. very beautiful and you would fear they wouldn't last long out and about.. so you take the time to walk your cats on a harness.. 

And you have a lrge hi run within they exercise with.. 

And as a cat owner and a responsible adult it i your choice to do so..


----------



## Amethyst

Well it's a shame people are taking things so personally now, because I've found it an interesting thread. No idea what MOM is going on about as I haven't noticed anyone avoiding questions?
Maybe if she was less "cryptic" things would be clearer, but there you go


----------



## Sacrechat

momentofmadness said:


> So it isn't a great deal of space.. or do you have a humongous garden..


My garden is 50 feet wide and 100 feet long. My cat run is approximately one quarter of that. :001_smile:


----------



## dougal22

Cleo38 said:


> I'm waiting for new NCIS - should be on about 9pm so I only have a few mins left


Oh, I don't watch that, I'm a 'Desperate Housewives' kinda gal


----------



## Sacrechat

classixuk said:


> It reads as though you have a problem with Cleo, Sacremist.
> 
> Please don't spoil the thread. It's ran all day quite smoothly.


I don't have a problem with anyone, just responding. Not my problem if people take things the wrong way.:001_smile:


----------



## suzy93074

Sacremist said:


> I don't think people are attacking me. I am just putting forward my point of view. I think you are looking in a mirror, you are the one feeling attacked. I couldn't give a rats ass if you agree with me or not or if my arguments sway you or not. You mean feck all to me.


I do think u need to calm down just a tad hun ....please


----------



## momentofmadness

Amethyst said:


> Well it's a shame people are taking things so personally now, because I've found it an interesting thread. No idea what MOM is going on about as I haven't noticed anyone avoiding questions?
> Maybe if she was less "cryptic" things would be clearer, but there you go


Actually it has happened .. But hey ho.. I think this has been a fabulous thread.. very informative from both side.. and yes it is a shame how some have put themselves across.. and I may add.. a minor few.. Or am I as being a mod not allowed to put my thoughts.. :lol: Oh I hope not.. as like anyone I enjoy getting into a debate..


----------



## dougal22

Sacremist said:


> My garden is 50 feet wide and 100 feet long. My cat run is approximately one quarter of that. :001_smile:


Very nice big cat run. Lots of space for your cats but maximum safety at the same time. Love it


----------



## RAINYBOW

momentofmadness said:


> Your cats to you are like my dogs.. very beautiful and you would fear they wouldn't last long out and about.. so you take the time to walk your cats on a harness..
> 
> And you have a lrge hi run within they exercise with..
> 
> And as a cat owner and a responsible adult it i your choice to do so..


To be honest i totally understand why people would keep pedigree cats inside because i do think there is a significant risk of them being stolen in built up areas.

Obvioulsy also any cat that has never been let out would i imagine adapt much better to indoor life than a Farm Cat that was bred outdoors and has lived and hunted outdoors for most of its life, thats probably the 2 ends of the scale and then there are grey areas in the middle .

Like i said a friend of mine had a flat so her 2 were indoors as kittens, then she moved and they were outdoors for a few years but she then decided where they lived wasn't safe so she keeps them in now. they seem happy enough and i have no issue with her choices because they have been based on her circumstances and her weighing up the risks V the benefits


----------



## noushka05

Cleo38 said:


> I can handle people disagreeing with me with valid arguements - you have not provided those though. You seem to think people are attacking you; they are not, they are expressing opinions.
> 
> As for the studies that Noush (not you btw) have provided I have looked at them & have also found conflicting ones. This debate goes on all the time on the WildaboutBritain forum so I've read quite a few for & againts cat onwership thanks
> 
> As for personal insults go ahead - I've probably heard worse!!!


go on show us the conflicting studies ....i really dont think anyone can deny that domestic cats as a species are efficient hunters can they....and with around 10 million of them in the UK, i would imagine the majority of which are allowed to roam free, surely they are going to have an impact on wildlife populations ...no:blink:


----------



## Sacrechat

RAINYBOW said:


> Yes, we all have but are you trying to make me shut up again? :nono: Don't you dare even think you can tell me to shut up!
> 
> Why? What do you hope to achieve by this statement? I thought you wanted us all to shut up but here you are getting in your last opinion. Naughty! Naughty! Practise what you preach!
> 
> So still not practising what you preach! Still wanting the last word! Okay since you are continuing, I will too. How immature of me or should that be you?


:crazy: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

OK i am laughing now, i just hope you are too.[/QUOTE]

I am actually but I won't give the joke away!:001_smile:


----------



## Sacrechat

classixuk said:


> Did you send your opinions on keeping cats indoors vs outdoors via PM? It's just it seems you posted your thoughts on everything else right here in the middle of the thread. Whoops. Must have gotten your posting screens mixed up.
> 
> What do you think about farm cats being able to keep the rodent population down? Could they do that from a run?


This isn't about farm cats, its about pet cats, so no comment.


----------



## dougal22

Sacremist said:


> Trust me! It's all in both your heads.:tongue_smilie:


 ................


----------



## Amethyst

Maybe it would be best if a mod closed this please? I really appreciate everyones input but I don't want anyone to get banned


----------



## Sacrechat

classixuk said:


> I think we need to start a new thread asking whether it's safe or ethical to let some of the forum members out on their own, nevermind just their cats.


I take it you don't trust yourself to go out alone then?:tongue_smilie:


----------



## classixuk

Amethyst said:


> Maybe it would be best if a mod closed this please? I really appreciate everyones input but I don't want anyone to get banned


Whatever happens to the thread I just want to say a public thanks for you posting it and keeping it on track throughout!

Grand job.


----------



## Sacrechat

DoubleTrouble said:


> Who said you were picking on anyone! Dress it up how you like! but the rules are quite clear - it is about personal insults and that was an outright attack towards Kath! I aint seem no other members punching below the belt! you have been the one slinging the mud! take you own advise and it you cant take it dont dish it out!


Oh I can take it! I felt Kath was below the belt accusing me of picking on her when all I did was respond to a few of her posts. And since we are on the subject there have been several attacks on me also calling me immature but I don't see anyone getting on their high horse over that because I don't agree with your side's argument.


----------



## Sacrechat

Cleo38 said:


> LOL, Really??? Thats' a such a shame, I thought we were getting on so well!!! :cryin:


I'm getting along just fine. You are the one with the problem.


----------



## Guest

Sacremist said:


> Oh I can take it! I felt Kath was below the belt accusing me of picking on her when all I did was respond to a few of her posts. And since we are on the subject there have been several attacks on me also calling me immature but I don't see anyone getting on their high horse over that because I don't agree with your side's argument.


Hey! I aint got a side! get you facts right if you are going round on me!
And for the record I don't think you have been immature!


----------



## tashi

I have cats that roam, they were rescue cats, brought here to keep the vermin population down in our buildings, my dogs never roam free but the cats go wherever they want. No keeping these two in, saved them from a certain pts as they were semi-feral, yes I catch sight of them now and again but they wont be caught and dont like human contact, BUT they are still my pets and I still care for them, they are fed and watered and have somewhere to sleep but doubt they will ever come near the house. 

My choice to have these pair, couldnt even get you a photo of them


----------



## noushka05

Amethyst said:


> Maybe it would be best if a mod closed this please? I really appreciate everyones input but I don't want anyone to get banned


oh no please dont ban no one theyre just passionate about things


----------



## suzy93074

Oh dear........well we did well to get up to 70 odd pages without a bust up  I think its been a really good thread and just shows we can all discuss like adults when we want


----------



## dougal22

momentofmadness said:


> Actually it has happened .. But hey ho.. I think this has been a fabulous thread.. very informative from both side.. and yes it is a shame how some have put themselves across.. and I may add.. a minor few.. *Or am I as being a mod not allowed to put my thoughts*.. :lol: Oh I hope not.. as like anyone I enjoy getting into a debate..


Moderator definition - 'one that arbitrates or mediates'


----------



## tashi

suzy93074 said:


> Oh dear........well we did well to get up to 70 odd pages without a bust up  I think its been a really good thread and just shows we can all discuss like adults when we want


True, but can we keep it that way. Stop the back-biting and continue with the thread in an adult vein


----------



## RAINYBOW

DoubleTrouble said:


> Hey! I aint got a side! get you facts right if you are going round on me!
> And for the record I don't think you have been immature!


Think that would be me causing offence (coz i am renouned for doing that :tongue_smilie coz i suggested it was immature to think that debating was about "winning" or "losing" ,


----------



## Sacrechat

dougal22 said:


> ................


Sorry my PC through a wobbler and I clicked on the wrong quote it was meant to be in response to someone else. Apologies!


----------



## noushka05

tashi said:


> I have cats that roam, they were rescue cats, brought here to keep the vermin population down in our buildings, my dogs never roam free but the cats go wherever they want. No keeping these two in, saved them from a certain pts as they were semi-feral, yes I catch sight of them now and again but they wont be caught and dont like human contact, BUT they are still my pets and I still care for them, they are fed and watered and have somewhere to sleep but doubt they will ever come near the house.
> 
> My choice to have these pair, couldnt even get you a photo of them


oh you got them then

are they Very feral?


----------



## Sacrechat

DoubleTrouble said:


> Hey! I aint got a side! get you facts right if you are going round on me!
> And for the record I don't think you have been immature!


I didn't say you called me immature, but others have, I'm just returning the compliment.


----------



## momentofmadness

dougal22 said:


> Moderator definition - 'one that arbitrates or mediates'


:lol: I just wana be me.. The mad one for a min.. not the judge who sits from aside and takes notes, or the one who mediates people into coming to an agreeable disagreement..

I think I put that wrong.. :lol: oh well.. not bad from 3 and a half hours sleep since Tuesday morn..


----------



## tashi

noushka05 said:


> oh you got them then
> 
> are they Very feral?


Yep count your fingers before you touch lol


----------



## Sacrechat

suzy93074 said:


> Oh dear........well we did well to get up to 70 odd pages without a bust up  I think its been a really good thread and just shows we can all discuss like adults when we want


Exactly and that is what I thought we were all doing but it seems some people think differently. Not accusing you btw just saying that some people can't seem to handle it when someone debates passionately, at least, not without getting upset. For some peculiar reason, they think I'm upset, I'm not. Just passionate about my beliefs.


----------



## noushka05

tashi said:


> Yep count your fingers before you touch lol


hahaa bless em:yikes:


----------



## tashi

momentofmadness said:


> :lol: I just wana be me.. The mad one for a min.. not the judge who sits from aside and takes notes, or the one who mediates people into coming to an agreeable disagreement..
> 
> I think I put that wrong.. :lol: oh well.. not bad from 3 and a half hours sleep since Tuesday morn..


Yep sometimes we are allowed to take off our mod hats - if we were paid then perhaps not but we do this for nowt, and I do mean zilch !!!!


----------



## Sammy123

Amethyst said:


> I don't want to get accused of anything "norty" like deflecting form someones thread topic, so ...
> 
> As being discussed ... why do some people think it okay to allow their cats wander, while (quite rightly) they would not allow their dogs to do the same?
> 
> Any cats we have in the future will be indoor cats, but years ago our family cats came and went at will ... thankfully we had worked out how to neuter them though
> 
> Are we simply following old traditional thought if we let them roam? Do we allow it for thier convenience or ours?
> 
> Does acknowledging their "independence" mean we should sacrifice their safety?


My cat is an indoor cat only and that is because we live yards away from a major road and behind the house, there are woods with lots of foxes around. I think if you get a cat to exchange love with, then the most responsible thing to do is just that. Someone at the beginning mentioned an outdoor life is a happy life. Why? So that they can fight, because that is in their nature? So that they can get bullied by other cat? I don't think any cat is happy when hit by car or have their ear eaten off by a fox or another cat. No.

I believe there are two types of cat owners: the ones that buy a cat to share love with and the ones that buy cats to have a companion that is ''just''around. Dogs are mostly bought for friendship. People seem to care more about them. They relate to them better, they respond to commands(mostly) and for that reason they believe they deserve more.

I care the same for both. I love them and I protect them as I think it's the best.


----------



## Sacrechat

tashi said:


> True, but can we keep it that way. Stop the back-biting and continue with the thread in an adult vein


I would love to Tashi. I just wish people would let me put forward my views without accusing me of attacking them personally. There have been quite a few very insulting comments made about me on this thread and I have chosen, for the most part, not to rise to them otherwise it would have descended into name calling. I wish I could say the same for others.


----------



## RAINYBOW

Sacremist said:


> Exactly and that is what I thought we were all doing but it seems some people think differently. Not accusing you btw just saying that some people can't seem to handle it when someone debates passionately, at least, not without getting upset. For some peculiar reason, they think I'm upset, I'm not. Just passionate about my beliefs.


So we have established noone is actually upset therefore No closing of thread or bannings required and we can officially herald the thread a success


----------



## dougal22

RAINYBOW said:


> Think that would be me causing offence (coz i am renouned for doing that :tongue_smilie *coz i suggested it was immature to think that debating was about "winning" or "losing"* ,


Off to the naughty step for you then 

Seriously though, debate isn't about winning or losing. It's about education, trying to get other people to see the other side of the story, although I have to admit that people seem to equate debate on PF as being bad, almost like an alien concept, debate is seen as a negative on here when it should be viewed as a positive.


----------



## Amethyst

Sammy123 said:


> My cat is an indoor cat only and that is because we live yards away from a major road and behind the house, there are woods with lots of foxes around. I think if you get a cat to exchange love with, then the most responsible thing to do is just that. Someone at the beginning mentioned an outdoor life is a happy life. Why? So that they can fight, because that is in their nature? So that they can get bullied by other cat? I don't think any cat is happy when hit by car or have their ear eaten off by a fox or another cat. No.
> 
> I believe there are two types of cat owners: the ones that buy a cat to share love with and the ones that buy cats to have a companion that is ''just''around. Dogs are mostly bought for friendship. People seem to care more about them. They relate to them better, they respond to commands(mostly) and for that reason they believe they deserve more.
> 
> I care the same for both. I love them and I protect them as I think it's the best.


Well, I have to say possibly one of the best and most thought out posts on this thread


----------



## suzy93074

Interesting point from Tashi though about Feral cats! they cannot be tamed to come indoors in many cases so what is the view on Feral cats??


----------



## RAINYBOW

dougal22 said:


> Off to the naughty step for you then
> 
> Seriously though, debate isn't about winning or losing. It's about education, trying to get other people to see the other side of the story, although I have to admit that people seem to equate debate on PF as being bad, almost like an alien concept, debate is seen as a negative on here when it should be viewed as a positive.


I totally agree  If you set out to "win" at any cost then i think in general you have lost before you start, having to "win" makes it an argument and not a debate and people rarely listen when they argue 

I stated very early on that the reason i joined this debate is because i was very anti indoor cats BUT having debated the subject before this thread i now have a much better understanding and have changed my viewpoint alot  Thats succesful debating IMO


----------



## suzy93074

Sammy123 said:


> My cat is an indoor cat only and that is because we live yards away from a major road and behind the house, there are woods with lots of foxes around. I think if you get a cat to exchange love with, then the most responsible thing to do is just that. Someone at the beginning mentioned an outdoor life is a happy life. Why? So that they can fight, because that is in their nature? So that they can get bullied by other cat? I don't think any cat is happy when hit by car or have their ear eaten off by a fox or another cat. No.
> 
> I believe there are two types of cat owners: the ones that buy a cat to share love with and the ones that buy cats to have a companion that is ''just''around. Dogs are mostly bought for friendship. People seem to care more about them. They relate to them better, they respond to commands(mostly) and for that reason they believe they deserve more.
> 
> I care the same for both. I love them and I protect them as I think it's the best.


Valid points however I disagree with the two types of cat owners bit - I didnt buy my cat and let out so he was just around - he is part of my family and always will be regardless of whether he goes out or not


----------



## Amethyst

suzy93074 said:


> Interesting point from Tashi though about Feral cats! they cannot be tamed to come indoors in many cases so what is the view on Feral cats??


Basically the alternative for a feral cat is euthanasia if it can't be placed in an outdoor home. Now I am the first to say there are worse things than euthanasia for a cat ... like many people, I have seen them 

But ..

If a feral can be found an "outdoor" home with someone who will monitor and feed it ... personally I think it should be given that chance ... but not placed in an environment on a main road or say in an area where the hunt frequents.

Basically it would be up to rescue placing cat to assess suitability and consider what is best for that animal. Placing a true feral cat in a pet home is not an option.

And before it is said 

It isn't about double standards, this thread is about domestic cats 

Ferals without doubt live life on the edge in many instances ... would they be better put to sleep, well I guess that is another debate entirely.

My view would be in some cases yes, in others ... no.


----------



## gskinner123

Amethyst said:


> You know in someway I think the point I was trying make has been missed in many ways, even after all those pages ... no doubt in no small part to me
> 
> I think I wanted to get across just why we (and I've done it myself) ...
> 
> Think it is acceptable to open the back door and allow a small animal say weighing 4 to 10lb outside to wander on it's own ... with all the discussed risks
> 
> Now I know cats aren't helpless, but pretty d**n so when they meet a cars wheels, large dogs, animal abusers, traps, poisons, air guns ...
> 
> We do it, while (forget the law, danger to people) the thought of opening our door and seeing our dogs disappearing into the distance would strike terror into our hearts :crying:
> 
> Now I know before it is said, cats and dogs are different, but they are both companion animals, that we hopefully love and cherish as part of our family
> ... yet we are (or were) happy to let them go walk about for hours on end ... it's very strange!
> 
> I know I'm not making sense to most, so I'll just add that PERSONALLY I don't think anything beats knowing where your cat is 24/7


I became so frustrated that I couldn't seem to get anyone to address the very point you've made above which, of course, was your initial question in the first place.

The most I could get out of anyone was that dog owners don't let their dogs out unaccompanied because it's against the law. I was never really interested in the cat indoor -v- outdoor debate (though got drawn in it a bit). I nearly got to the point where I started a thread in dog chat asking peeps there why they didn't let their dogs out unaccompanied. But I figured I'd look a bit of of a [email protected]


----------



## classixuk

gskinner123 said:


> I became so frustrated that I couldn't seem to get anyone to address the very point you've made above which, of course, was your initial question in the first place.
> 
> The most I could get out of anyone was that dog owners don't let their dogs out unaccompanied because it's against the law. I was never really interested in the cat indoor -v- outdoor debate (though got drawn in it a bit). I nearly got to the point where I started a thread in dog chat asking peeps there why they didn't let their dogs out unaccompanied. But I figured I'd look a bit of of a [email protected]


LOL. That last bit really made me giggle!


----------



## Amethyst

gskinner123 said:


> I became so frustrated that I couldn't seem to get anyone to address the very point you've made above which, of course, was your initial question in the first place.
> 
> The most I could get out of anyone was that dog owners don't let their dogs out unaccompanied because it's against the law. I was never really interested in the cat indoor -v- outdoor debate (though got drawn in it a bit). I nearly got to the point where I started a thread in dog chat asking peeps there why they didn't let their dogs out unaccompanied. But I figured I'd look a bit of of a [email protected]


Well I'm glad someone understood what I was trying to say, I thought I had just worded it very badly 
I think Sammi understood too


----------



## Tanya1989

Closed as requested by OP


----------



## Tanya1989

Sorry, my mistake, crossed wires


----------



## noushka05

suzy93074 said:


> Interesting point from Tashi though about Feral cats! they cannot be tamed to come indoors in many cases so what is the view on Feral cats??


my view on ferals is different i think they should be neutered and released, i dont like the alternative option of culling them....and if owners controlled their pets the overall impact from ferals would be minimal.


----------



## Nico0laGouldsmith

CAstbury said:


> I havent seen other thread - but personally I know my cat would be miserable if she had to stay indoors all the time. So although I worry about her safety I would prefer her to have a shorter happyier life than live til she is really old and be miserable.
> 
> Just my thoughts on my own cat


I feel the same way, my cat refuses to use a litter tray, if she wanted to be indoors I'd keep her as an indoor cat (I have nothing against anyone who does keep indoor cats) but as she loves being outside it wouldn't be fair . .we live next to fields so she has spent her life chasing mice and she even fetched us a whole wild rabbit home one day!! to my horror she came over the 6 foot fence with what looked like a kitten in her mouth. . .then I realised it was as big as her and it was a rabbit! It was definitely wild though, she'd hunted it in the field not someone's garden 

but yes back to the point. .. the average life expectancy for cats is a lot lot lower if they're outdoors but my cat is 17 this year and she's fine *touches wood* . . . she's not a completely outdoor cat, she eats inside and she comes in if and as she pleases but she likes to go back out again when she's had enough. . saying that though I had a cat when I was little who liked to go out and she got hit by a car and had to have her jaw wired 

I think it just depends on luck and whether the cat ventures near busy roads. . .I live on a little street but if i lived on a main road I'm sure I wouldn't let her out. . . so it's got a lot to do with location too. . .


----------



## Amethyst

Tanya1989 said:


> Sorry, my mistake, crossed wires


My fault, but I think there are too many mods on tonight


----------



## RAINYBOW

Grrrrr need to type my post again now 

OK i did answer earlier 

I don't let my dog out because he is stupid and has absolutely no skills required to survive an hour outside therefore if i opened the door to him i would be sending him out to pretty much certain death. Now given that he is exercised daily there is no benefit to him being let loose when weighed up against a huge risk of death.

With my cats they were street savvy and yes there were risks but in my situation i felt that the benefits to those particular cats (given the distress they showed when kept in) outweighed the risks.

Its not about liking my dog more its about addressing the individual needs of my animals


----------



## Guest

Amethyst said:


> My fault, but I think there are too many mods on tonight


I always told you mods were like buses!


----------



## suzy93074

noushka05 said:


> my view on ferals is different i think they should be neutered and released, i dont like the alternative option of culling them....and if owners controlled their pets the overall impact from ferals would be minimal.


Yes must admit I dont like the idea of culling.


----------



## tashi

DoubleTrouble said:


> I always told you mods were like buses!


not the back end though


----------



## noushka05

suzy93074 said:


> Yes must admit I dont like the idea of culling.


no i personally would prefer it if they were neutered and allowed to die out.


----------



## tashi

suzy93074 said:


> Yes must admit I dont like the idea of culling.


These are both neutered and vaccinated, microchipped etc, can I just say though to add to the mix that Hunt Kennels also have a resident cat or two


----------



## Guest

suzy93074 said:


> Yes must admit I dont like the idea of culling.


Oh I don't know! could think of a few humans I wouldn't mind culling at the moment!


----------



## Ren

This is STILL going?? 

rrr:


----------



## RAINYBOW

tashi said:


> These are both neutered and vaccinated, microchipped etc, can I just say though to add to the mix that Hunt Kennels also have a resident cat or two


Stables, Farms, Pubs also have "working" cats generally too that need to be outdoors


----------



## suzy93074

Its funny cos I asked my dad about it earlier when I was on the phone to him and he sted fastly believes cats should be out doors - he mainly has this view because he grew up on a pig and chicken farm where they had cats to keep the mice at bay so I guess it also does come down to tradition in some cases as mentioned but still imo its personal choice and weighing up what your cat is happy with


----------



## suzy93074

DoubleTrouble said:


> Oh I don't know! could think of a few humans I wouldn't mind culling at the moment!


LOL im sure you could! - and yes my ears are burning!


----------



## Sacrechat

DoubleTrouble said:


> Oh I don't know! could think of a few humans I wouldn't mind culling at the moment!


Are you referring to me?


----------



## Guest

Sacremist said:


> Are you referring to me?


Whatever made you think that? I am thinking of the entire UK government if you really want to know! together with many other scumbags (mostly in our prisons) but thought it would bring back humour if I put my thoughts on this thread!!
Twisted mind you see

And whilst on the point of governments! I don't like the new voting system!!!


----------



## Sacrechat

DoubleTrouble said:


> Whatever made you think that? I am thinking of the entire UK government if you really want to know! together with many other scumbags (mostly in our prisons) but thought it would bring back humour if I put my thoughts on this thread!!
> Twisted mind you see
> 
> And whilst on the point of governments! I don't like the new voting system!!!


I would gladly cull most of the government.:001_smile:


----------



## Guest

Sacremist said:


> I would gladly cull most of the government.:001_smile:


Maybe thats another thread! Who do we extinguish first
Nick Clegg


----------



## Guest

Sacremist said:


> I would gladly cull most of the government.:001_smile:


PErhaps they should all be kept indoors! in a nice cat run!


----------



## Sacrechat

DoubleTrouble said:


> PErhaps they should all be kept indoors! in a nice cat run!


They are not living inside my doors! I could go along with having them neutered and thrown out to live in the wild though.:tongue_smilie:


----------



## Sacrechat

DoubleTrouble said:


> Maybe thats another thread! Who do we extinguish first
> Nick Clegg


David Cameron.:001_smile:


----------



## Guest

Sacremist said:


> They are not living inside my doors! I could go along with having them neutered and thrown out to live in the wild though.:tongue_smilie:


Now neutering yep! I like the sound of that! Stop them multiplying
With careful monitering we could wipe out the species


----------



## momentofmadness

DoubleTrouble said:


> Now neutering yep! I like the sound of that! Stop them multiplying


with bricks..  Or elastic bands.. :lol:

Actually I have stood and assisted enough vets whilst castrating colts I reckon I could do it with my eyes closed..  send em to me I would take great pleasure in doing the procedure.. :lol:


----------



## Guest

momentofmadness said:


> with bricks..  Or elastic bands.. :lol:
> 
> Actually I have stood and assisted enough vets whilst castrating colts I reckon I could do it with my eyes closed..  send em to me I would take great pleasure in doing the procedure.. :lol:


A pair of nut crackers


----------



## Sacrechat

dougal22 said:


> Very nice big cat run. Lots of space for your cats but maximum safety at the same time. Love it


Thank you! We are fortunate to have a lot of outdoor space.


----------



## momentofmadness

DoubleTrouble said:


> A pair of nut crackers


You would get that effective crunching sound you get as you cut through the vital pip.. .. but I reckon a tape made of this first should be played to them. so they hear it and let their own imagination panic..  Blimey I didn't know I had these thoughts in me.. :lol:


----------



## Guest

Sacremist said:


> I don't know why you think I am attacking you, in particular, I'm responding to a large variety of people's posts. Blimey, talk about paranoia! Perhaps you had better bow out of the thread if you can't cope with people disagreeing with you.
> 
> Don't forget to pick up your toys and put them back in the cot on your way out.:tongue_smilie:


I have been out for a lovely family night out and i have come home to this!!! 

I did not say you were attacking me, once again you are putting words in my mouth and twisting it!! Why you need to use the word attack i have no idea, you disagreed with a few of my posts and i just said you seem to have it in for me as you disagreed with most of what i have said.

I am not paranoid at all so don't ever say that about me thank you, I said that i was not going to entertain the thread anymore not because of YOU or that people did not agree with me because it was going round in circles and it was just going nowhere really.

I have no problem with people disagreeing with me and no problem with a good debate but I will not put up with personal insults towards me that you have made, who do you think you are to make such a judgement on me?? 

If you want to take this to PM than please do as I do not want this thread closed as it has gone on for so long it would be a great shame, i do feel that I have to stick up for myself and that is why I am replying on the thread.


----------



## Chez87

Sacremist said:


> So are you saying that even though people work all day and this would mean leaving their dogs alone for hours on end is acceptable because they still have a right to a dog, even though it is not in the dog's best interest? Are you saying that people who cannot afford to take their pet to a vet should still have a pet, even if it means the pet suffering if it is injured or ill? After all, not having enough money to care for the pet should not matter, if I am understanding you correctly, so long as they get to have what they want.


Sorry I'm late! Went to watch the football 

I don't really understand a lot of this I'm afraid, but no, I think not being able to take your pet to the vet is different to not being able to afford to catproof the garden. Also it's illegal to deny an animal treatment when it's required. That's why I have insurance and made sure this was taken out well before he was ever allowed outside. So that if anything WAS to happen to him, due to my decision, at least I would be able to treat him without having to worry about money.

ETA: Unless he was killed obviously, which I'm sure someone will point out.


----------



## gskinner123

I can't believe what a bunch of lightweights you all are  I left this thread, spent 9.5 hours helping 7 kittens into the world - their poor mum  - ironed the OH a shirt for work and made his sandwiches (yes, he is still 9 years old in some respects) and I'm still up... tut... thought you'd all still be here.

Sacremist, are you going to have a lie down in a darkened room with a bag of satsumas today?


----------



## Ren

gskinner123 said:


> I can't believe what a bunch of lightweights you all are  I left this thread, spent 9.5 hours helping 7 kittens into the world - their poor mum  - ironed the OH a shirt for work and made his sandwiches (yes, he is still 9 years old in some respects) and I'm still up... tut... thought you'd all still be here.
> 
> Sacremist, are you going to have a lie down in a darkened room with a bag of satsumas today?


Noooo! It has risen again!  Kill it! Kill it!


----------



## Guest

Ren said:


> Noooo! It has risen again!  Kill it! Kill it!


Time for a roll call me finks!

Hands up all those present and rearing to go


----------



## Cleo38

gskinner123 said:


> I can't believe what a bunch of lightweights you all are  I left this thread, spent 9.5 hours helping 7 kittens into the world - their poor mum  - ironed the OH a shirt for work and made his sandwiches (yes, he is still 9 years old in some respects) and I'm still up... tut... thought you'd all still be here.
> 
> Sacremist, are you going to have a lie down in a darkened room with a bag of satsumas today?


LOL, so sorry 

I took a break to watch NCIS last night then realised it was bedtime - I need my sleep!!!!


----------



## hobbs2004

DoubleTrouble said:


> Time for a roll call me finks!
> 
> Hands up all those present and rearing to go


Not me, I leave you guys to it, you seem to be doing VERY well without me 



gskinner123 said:


> I can't believe what a bunch of lightweights you all are  I left this thread, spent 9.5 hours helping 7 kittens into the world - their poor mum  - ironed the OH a shirt for work and made his sandwiches (yes, he is still 9 years old in some respects) and I'm still up... tut... thought you'd all still be here.
> 
> Sacremist, are you going to have a lie down in a darkened room with a bag of satsumas today?


But I just wanted to say: Congrats on the kittens GSkinner! Didn't have to wait too long after all


----------



## Amethyst

Well, I'm here but I don't think there is much left to say  

Lot's of thought provoking ideas and I've enjoyed reading them all. As another member kind of said, it's not often we get to debate something in depth!


----------



## Oliver Twist

Sorry, I haven't read all the posts so this answer may have already been given.
In my opinion, cats do not represent any danger to people but dogs can do, or strictly speaking people may by afraid of free roaming dogs even if they are harmless. This is the reason why I do not allow my dog to roam. 
Everything else necessarily seems to end up in the indoor-outdoor discussion just as this is in forums over here, too.


----------



## Ren

Amethyst said:


> Well, I'm here but I don't think there is much left to say
> 
> Lot's of thought provoking ideas and I've enjoyed reading them all. As another member kind of said, it's not often we get to debate something in depth!


Yes, apart from a few wobbles this has been the friendliest debate in ages!


----------



## noushka05

Amethyst said:


> Well, I'm here but I don't think there is much left to say
> 
> Lot's of thought provoking ideas and I've enjoyed reading them all. As another member kind of said, it's not often we get to debate something in depth!


well ive got another reason for keeping cats in.... we're in danger of losing our last true wild cat due to interbreeding with domestic cats

right its off to the dentist for me:yikes:....but i'll be back! lol


----------



## koekemakranka

DoubleTrouble said:


> I I neither have to justify why, nor alter this arrangment for the immediate future! but rest assured should such a time arise then I shall do what I consider best! That will be a decision made on my views - NOT that of those of pet forum members!
> There you have it! END of!


But why so defensive and aggressive, DT? Nobody said you can't let your cat out. It is a personal choice for each owner.


----------



## koekemakranka

noushka05 said:


> well ive got another reason for keeping cats in.... we're in danger of losing our last true wild cat due to interbreeding with domestic cats


Indeed, it has happened to one of our own indigenous cats, the African Wild Cat. It is very difficult to find a pure one in the wild that has not been genetically polluted by domestic cats.


----------



## Cleo38

noushka05 said:


> well ive got another reason for keeping cats in.... we're in danger of losing our last true wild cat due to interbreeding with domestic cats
> 
> right its off to the dentist for me:yikes:....but i'll be back! lol


Then the only way to truly 'preserve' Scottish Wild Cats which would be expensive, impossible to determine which are the true hyrbids (some of the differences are very difficult to spot) & inhumane (imo) to kill healthy animals that are not causing harm or being destructive.

Interbreeding happens in alot of species & what has happened with the Sika & native Red deer.


----------



## Kitty_pig

koekemakranka said:


> Indeed, it has happened to one of our own indigenous cats, the African Wild Cat. It is very difficult to find a pure one in the wild that has not been genetically polluted by domestic cats.


Wow I have never seen a picture of one before. Theyre beautiful xxx


----------



## koekemakranka

catsmum said:


> sorry, if it ensures the safety and wellbeing of my cat, i dont find £250 that much at all, in fact i do find it a small amount
> 
> if my cats were going out to roam free i would need that much, and a lot more, put aside to cover vet fees and insurance excesses were they to fall prey to a car a yob or an agressive dog or poisoning


As I said in another thread: the cost of eventually catproofing my garden came to much less than the vet's bill I faced after my cat was mauled outside.


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

This was written by some-one else.
But interesting info from RSPB :001_smile:

Quote:

In the UK, the R.S.P.B. state that there is no evidence to suggest that cats are responsible for the decline in bird populations, because research shows that they take mainly weak or sick birds that would have died anyway. This is why they don't urge the government to introduce legislation to curb the cat's legal right to roam in the UK.
http://www.rspb.org.uk/advice/gardening/

Natural selection, loss of habitat and environmental pollution have a far greater effect on bird and wildlife populations than cats ever will. Common insect eating birds are suffering a decline in their numbers because of reduction in their food source. Climate change, the excessive use of pesticides and car windscreens are all responsible for the death of many flying insects. It's humans who have made many species of animal extinct, but cats make a handy scapegoat for some people.


----------



## classixuk

Cockerpoo lover said:


> This was written by some-one else.
> But interesting info from RSPB :001_smile:
> 
> Quote:
> 
> In the UK, the R.S.P.B. state that there is no evidence to suggest that cats are responsible for the decline in bird populations, because research shows that they take mainly weak or sick birds that would have died anyway. This is why they don't urge the government to introduce legislation to curb the cat's legal right to roam in the UK.
> http://www.rspb.org.uk/advice/gardening/
> 
> Natural selection, loss of habitat and environmental pollution have a far greater effect on bird and wildlife populations than cats ever will. Common insect eating birds are suffering a decline in their numbers because of reduction in their food source. Climate change, the excessive use of pesticides and car windscreens are all responsible for the death of many flying insects. It's humans who have made many species of animal extinct, but cats make a handy scapegoat for some people.


For that research you get a 'like' and a 'rep'!

I mentioned natural selection earlier in the thread too, but applied it to the mice that are caught.


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

seemed the link didn't work!! but it did when I got if from other source??

Try this The RSPB: Advice: Are cats causing bird declines?


----------



## Cleo38

I think it's very difficlut to come to a conclusion with these types of surveys regarding impact as there is alot of assumtions made. How it it known that the cat definitely caught & killed a healthy animal? it may have been dead/dying already or unable to escape due to illness/disease/injury.

There is also no mention of how abundant the species of prey is; cats may be catching high numbers of one species as there are so many of them available & therefore there would be little impact on that particular group.


----------



## suzy93074

Cockerpoo lover said:


> seemed the link didn't work!! but it did when I got if from other source??
> 
> Try this The RSPB: Advice: Are cats causing bird declines?


Interesting reading CP!


----------



## Chez87

koekemakranka said:


> As I said in another thread: the cost of eventually catproofing my garden came to much less than the vet's bill I faced after my cat was mauled outside.


Which is exactly why my cat is insured. I don't have thousands in the bank for vet treatment, but seeing as I choose to let my cat out, the least I can do is make sure I can treat him if he gets injured.


----------



## Amethyst

I'm not sure about the impact birds make on numbers and how significant it is to endangered species ...

But I know however natural it may be, it's still awful to see happen or the aftermath to view ... and yes I know ... nature red in tooth and claw etc!

A childhood cat would often bring in tiny featherless babies ... often half eaten and I hated to see the poor little mites. A life destroyed, but maybe he did find them fallen from nest? Always suspected not, he'd been on a raid 

He used to bring mice into the home too and release them alive ... to play with at his leisure I suspected  We would then chase the mice around the room, catch and release them ... while he watched form the window.

I loved that cat, but he must have been responsible for an awful lot of birds killed ... an awful lot over the years.


----------



## koekemakranka

suzy93074 said:


> Interesting point from Tashi though about Feral cats! they cannot be tamed to come indoors in many cases so what is the view on Feral cats??


Well, feral cats shouldn't exist, but thanks to humankind's irresponsibility, they are a sad reality. It is probably their silent predation that keeps us from being overrun by rats and other vermin, and not the work of housecats. Notice how they always seem to live near or in storerooms at supermarkets and near bins outside restaurants? Not only food scraps they are after, but the things that come for the food scraps, methinks. To my mind, ferals are working cats like farm cats. My cats are companion cats so do not need to work, lucky buggers, so they can stay confined to my home and garden.

It is interesting. I help feed a number of feral cat colonies weekly. The food sometimes attracts feral and rock pigeons and also plovers. I have very seldom seen that any of the cats (60 in all) have taken a pigeon. In fact, some of the pigeons and plovers wait next to the feeding cats for their turn. One of the loner cats even shares his food with two rock pigeons and a plover. Very odd.


----------



## RAINYBOW

Cockerpoo lover said:


> This was written by some-one else.
> But interesting info from RSPB :001_smile:
> 
> Quote:
> 
> In the UK, the R.S.P.B. state that there is no evidence to suggest that cats are responsible for the decline in bird populations, because research shows that they take mainly weak or sick birds that would have died anyway. This is why they don't urge the government to introduce legislation to curb the cat's legal right to roam in the UK.
> http://www.rspb.org.uk/advice/gardening/…
> 
> Natural selection, loss of habitat and environmental pollution have a far greater effect on bird and wildlife populations than cats ever will. Common insect eating birds are suffering a decline in their numbers because of reduction in their food source. Climate change, the excessive use of pesticides and car windscreens are all responsible for the death of many flying insects. It's humans who have made many species of animal extinct, but cats make a handy scapegoat for some people.


I did a bit of googling yesterday and came up with the same as you, lots on climate change and pesticides etc but not much about cats.

You would think the RSPB would be the ones in this country to be shouting about it if cats were a significant issue to birds so IMO this is a reliable source of information


----------



## noushka05

Cleo38 said:


> Then the only way to truly 'preserve' Scottish Wild Cats which would be expensive, impossible to determine which are the true hyrbids (some of the differences are very difficult to spot) & inhumane (imo) to kill healthy animals that are not causing harm or being destructive.
> 
> Interbreeding happens in alot of species & what has happened with the Sika & native Red deer.


Im certainly not a purist when it comes to species hybridisation but when it comes to a domestic species interbreeding wild animals then i have to draw the line!....to lose the Scottish wildcat, the African wildcat....the Wolf!!...because of the selfishness or ignorance of man would be a flamin tragedy imo!


----------



## Cleo38

noushka05 said:


> Im certainly not a purist when it comes to species hybridisation but when it comes to a domestic species interbreeding wild animals then i have to draw the line!....to lose the Scottish wildcat, the African wildcat....the Wolf!!...because of the selfishness or ignorance of man would be a flamin tragedy imo!


But if people got their pets neutered then this wouldn't have happened & the domestic cats could still be outside with no harm done to the wildcats. Responsible pet owners will do this anyway but it is the irresponsible that will be a problem. keeping their animals indoors though won't be a consideration though if they don't put that much effort in to caring for them.


----------



## Sacrechat

gskinner123 said:


> I can't believe what a bunch of lightweights you all are  I left this thread, spent 9.5 hours helping 7 kittens into the world - their poor mum  - ironed the OH a shirt for work and made his sandwiches (yes, he is still 9 years old in some respects) and I'm still up... tut... thought you'd all still be here.
> 
> Sacremist, are you going to have a lie down in a darkened room with a bag of satsumas today?


No need, I feel perfectly fine just as I did yesterday. I am getting ready soon to take the dog for her hour long walk but nothing unusual about that but it does a lot mire good than darkened rooms.:001_smile:


----------



## Cyberfyn

Why is it acceptable to let cats roam, but not dogs?

Simple really. A cat will always find it's way home. A dog will run off sniffing lamp posts until it gets lost :

We have had seven cats over the last 20 years and all have had 24-7 365 access to the great big scary dangerous outdoors. We have never lost a cat to anything other than old age. I'm not old-school, but I believe cats are natural outdoor hunters, and I know all ours have been happier for their freedom. Our current cats are two pedigree Maine Coons (breeder has full knowledge of their going out) which are an outdoor evolved breed for the cold new england climate, and love being outdoors - whatever the weather!

*But.* We ae rural, at the end of a slow winding road and surrounded by fields and woodland. If we were in an urban setting then I would not keep cats at all. It makes me cringe when driving and I see a cat on a main road.

The reason this thread is so long is because everyone feels pasionately about their pets - and their views on how to best care for them. Mine are probably different to yours, but that's my view. Simply as.

Dexter outdoors, where he belongs.









Ian.


----------



## noushka05

RAINYBOW said:


> I did a bit of googling yesterday and came up with the same as you, lots on climate change and pesticides etc but not much about cats.
> 
> You would think the RSPB would be the ones in this country to be shouting about it if cats were a significant issue to birds so IMO this is a reliable source of information


no the RSPB often proves itself to be very controversial and politically minded, and of course other factors are responsible for the decline of species but the pressure from cats can be the straw to break the donkeys back!...does anyone on here deny that cats are a very efficent predator? oh and edited to add to my knowledge the RSPB havent even done any studies have they?:glare:

there are only around 280,000 foxes for example compared with 10 million cats, do you seriously believe they dont have an impact???:blink:....and foxes are 'controlled'....cats arnt!

You couldnt find much about cats Rainybow:yikes::yikes::yikes: you google must be broke heres a couple of links but i can get you zillions more if you like

http://www.abcbirds.org/abcprograms/policy/cats/materials/predation.pdf

issg Database: Ecology of Felis catus

House Cat, Felis domesticus, Control and Management Information

Why Cats Are a Threat to Our Ecosystem

Veggie Revolution: Cats are Invasive Species

http://joomla.wildlife.org/Documents/cats_general_info.pdf


----------



## Cleo38

Cyberfyn said:


> Why is it acceptable to let cats roam, but not dogs?
> 
> Simple really. A cat will always find it's way home. A dog will run off sniffing lamp posts until it gets lost :
> 
> We have had seven cats over the last 20 years and all have had 24-7 365 access to the great big scary dangerous outdoors. We have never lost a cat to anything other than old age. I'm not old-school, but I believe cats are natural outdoor hunters, and I know all ours have been happier for their freedom. Our current cats are two pedigree Maine Coons (breeder has full knowledge of their going out) which are an outdoor evolved breed for the cold new england climate, and love being outdoors - whatever the weather!
> 
> *But.* We ae rural, at the end of a slow winding road and surrounded by fields and woodland. If we were in an urban setting then I would not keep cats at all. It makes me cringe when driving and I see a cat on a main road.
> 
> The reason this thread is so long is because everyone feels pasionately about their pets - and their views on how to best care for them. Mine are probably different to yours, but that's my view. Simply as.
> 
> Dexter outdoors, where he belongs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ian.


He is gorgeous!!!!!


----------



## Guest

classixuk said:


> For that research you get a 'like' and a 'rep'!
> 
> I mentioned natural selection earlier in the thread too, but applied it to the mice that are caught.


And the same from me too!


----------



## Guest

Cyberfyn said:


> Why is it acceptable to let cats roam, but not dogs?
> 
> Simple really. A cat will always find it's way home. A dog will run off sniffing lamp posts until it gets lost :
> 
> We have had seven cats over the last 20 years and all have had 24-7 365 access to the great big scary dangerous outdoors. We have never lost a cat to anything other than old age. I'm not old-school, but I believe cats are natural outdoor hunters, and I know all ours have been happier for their freedom. Our current cats are two pedigree Maine Coons (breeder has full knowledge of their going out) which are an outdoor evolved breed for the cold new england climate, and love being outdoors - whatever the weather!
> 
> *But.* We ae rural, at the end of a slow winding road and surrounded by fields and woodland. If we were in an urban setting then I would not keep cats at all. It makes me cringe when driving and I see a cat on a main road.
> 
> The reason this thread is so long is because everyone feels pasionately about their pets - and their views on how to best care for them. Mine are probably different to yours, but that's my view. Simply as.
> 
> Dexter outdoors, where he belongs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ian.


Wow!! He is absolutely stunning, what a beauty. :001_wub::001_wub:


----------



## RAINYBOW

noushka05 said:


> no the RSPB often proves itself to be very controversial and politically minded, and of course other factors are responsible for the decline of species but the pressure from cats can be the straw to break the donkeys back!...does anyone on here deny that cats are a very efficent predator?
> 
> there are only around 280,000 foxes for example compared with 10 million cats, do you seriously believe they dont have an impact???:blink:....and foxes are 'controlled'....cats arnt!
> 
> You couldnt find much about cats Rainybow:yikes::yikes::yikes: you google mush be broke heres a couple of links but i can get you zillions more if you like
> 
> http://www.abcbirds.org/abcprograms/policy/cats/materials/predation.pdf
> 
> issg Database: Ecology of Felis catus
> 
> House Cat, Felis domesticus, Control and Management Information
> 
> Why Cats Are a Threat to Our Ecosystem
> 
> Veggie Revolution: Cats are Invasive Species
> 
> http://joomla.wildlife.org/Documents/cats_general_info.pdf


I don't deny they are predators, being ex farm or pub cats mine were prolific hunters (which i hated) all i am saying is i cannot see what the RSPB would have to gain from playing down this issue or ignoring it therefore i would consider them to be a reliable source of information in this instance.

If you google hard enough you can find evidence of just about anything but i will agree that there is probably a marked increase in the number of domestic cats as people keep more and more animals so maybe a *limit on numbers *that people can have would help rather than insisting on them all being kept in. Do not underestimate the rise in rodents you would see either if this happened given the amount of rubbish they now have to feed off :nono:

Actually that makes much more sense in terms of legislation - Everyone can keep just 1 NUETERED cat unless they have a full breeders licence, hey presto no rescue crisis, less territory punch ups, less impact on the wildlife  (god i am a genius, why am i not in Government!!)

To be honest my neighbours cats roam and they are a pain in the arse so i am not denying outdoor cats are a problem but out of Interest Noush knowing how important the quality of life of your animals is to you what would you have done with my outdoor bred farm cat when i rescued him aged 4 ?

He was bred on a farm but this bloke who lived in a caravan on the farmland "adopted" him as his pet. He was then forced to move into a rented room taking the cat with him but after a couple of months the other tenant and owners who were having a baby decided that Billy Cat was too "High Risk" and couldn't stay  So i took him, we worked at the time but had a nice flat with a garden but the garden wasn't connected to the flat, it was off a shared alleyway.

I kept him in for 2 weeks to establish our flat as his new home and he absolutely climbed the walls trying to get out and was very unhappy !!!

How do you turn that cat into an inside cat without impairing his quality of life ?. Personally i do not believe anyone could have done that, i don't believe that he would ever have been happy even if i had turned the whole garden into a run.


----------



## Guest

noushka05 said:


> Im certainly not a purist when it comes to species hybridisation but when it comes to a domestic species interbreeding wild animals then i have to draw the line!....to lose the Scottish wildcat, the African wildcat....the Wolf!!...because of the selfishness or ignorance of man would be a flamin tragedy imo!


Please it all went well at the dentist Noush! Great to see that you ain't lost your voice :w00t:
lol
DT


----------



## suzy93074

noushka05 said:


> no the RSPB often proves itself to be very controversial and politically minded, and of course other factors are responsible for the decline of species but the pressure from cats can be the straw to break the donkeys back!...does anyone on here deny that cats are a very efficent predator? oh and edited to add to my knowledge the RSPB havent even done any studies have they?:glare:
> 
> there are only around 280,000 foxes for example compared with 10 million cats, do you seriously believe they dont have an impact???:blink:....and foxes are 'controlled'....cats arnt!
> 
> You couldnt find much about cats Rainybow:yikes::yikes::yikes: you google must be broke heres a couple of links but i can get you zillions more if you like
> 
> http://www.abcbirds.org/abcprograms/policy/cats/materials/predation.pdf
> 
> issg Database: Ecology of Felis catus
> 
> House Cat, Felis domesticus, Control and Management Information
> 
> Why Cats Are a Threat to Our Ecosystem
> 
> Veggie Revolution: Cats are Invasive Species
> 
> http://joomla.wildlife.org/Documents/cats_general_info.pdf


I for one am not denying that cats do kill our wildlife - however with regards to statistics etc - google is very good to find something that proves your point - for either party really, if asked a particular question  to suit - I do think the RSPB is a more proven site as it is there to protect birds and is not denying that cats are a problem - just not as big a problem as many other factors


----------



## lulubel

RAINYBOW said:


> How do you turn that cat into an inside cat without impairing his quality of life ?. Personally i do not believe anyone could have done that, i don't believe that he would ever have been happy even if i had turned the whole garden into a run.


Personally, I don't think you can. There are probably very few adult cats that have been used to going outside that will be happy with an indoor life, and I agree that a short, happy life is better than a long, miserable one.

But I would never recommend to anyone getting a new kitten that they should let it outside on its own. Sadly, the world is a dangerous place for cats.


----------



## koekemakranka

Cyberfyn said:


> We ae rural, at the end of a slow winding road and surrounded by fields and woodland. If we were in an urban setting then I would not keep cats at all. It makes me cringe when driving and I see a cat on a main road.
> 
> The reason this thread is so long is because everyone feels pasionately about their pets - and their views on how to best care for them. Mine are probably different to yours, but that's my view. Simply as.
> 
> Ian.


Agree completely. I think perhaps we are all arguing about nothing. If I lived in a rural area away from traffic and dangerous humans and animals, then certainly I would let my cats out. It would be wonderful. But I do live on a busy street and there are feral and other cats wandering around my neighbourhood. Poisonings are quite common in my country (for instance it has happened that burglars use what they call "two step" poison to poison all dogs on a property so that they can burgle in peace). I weighed the risks and realised the risks of allowing my cats to wander freely were too great. I do worry about wildlife though, but am not an authority on predation as all my cats are pretty useless at hunting, so I don't know what the impact would be if they were good hunters.


----------



## noushka05

RAINYBOW said:


> I don't deny they are predators, being ex farm or pub cats mine were prolific hunters (which i hated) all i am saying is i cannot see what the RSPB would have to gain from playing down this issue or ignoring it therefore i would consider them to be a reliable source of information in this instance.
> 
> If you google hard enough you can find evidence of just about anything but i will agree that there is probably a marked increase in the number of domestic cats as people keep more and more animals so maybe a *limit on numbers *that people can have would help rather than insisting on them all being kept in. Do not underestimate the rise in rodents you would see either if this happened given the amount of rubbish they now have to feed off :nono:
> 
> Actually that makes much more sense in terms of legislation - Everyone can keep just 1 NUETERED cat unless they have a full breeders licence, hey presto no rescue crisis, less territory punch ups, less impact on the wildlife  (god i am a genius, why am i not in Government!!)
> 
> To be honest my neighbours cats roam and they are a pain in the arse so i am not denying outdoor cats are a problem but out of Interest Noush knowing how important the quality of life of your animals is to you what would you have done with my outdoor bred farm cat when i rescued him aged 4 ?
> 
> He was bred on a farm but this bloke who lived in a caravan on the farmland "adopted" him as his pet. He was then forced to move into a rented room taking the cat with him but after a couple of months the other tenant and owners who were having a baby decided that Billy Cat was too "High Risk" and couldn't stay  So i took him, we worked at the time but had a nice flat with a garden but the garden wasn't connected to the flat, it was off a shared alleyway.
> 
> I kept him in for 2 weeks to establish our flat as his new home and he absolutely climbed the walls trying to get out and was very unhappy !!!
> 
> How do you turn that cat into an inside cat without impairing his quality of life ?. Personally i do not believe anyone could have done that, i don't believe that he would ever have been happy even if i had turned the whole garden into a run.


you really dont have to google hard at all just type in domestic cat invasive species because thats the term conservationists use for them.
believe me the RSPB has very conflicting views of many things which is why i would never support them...but if they actually have done studies than great.. i would love to see them.

in your case Rainy i have to say i think you did the right thing for Billy he was already set in his ways pretty much like the ferals ive spoke about earlier....but im seriously concerned with cat ownership growing all the time that if people dont start taking responsibility for their pets we will lose more of our precious wildlife who are already strugging to survive against all the pressures upon them.


----------



## noushka05

suzy93074 said:


> I for one am not denying that cats do kill our wildlife - however with regards to statistics etc - google is very good to find something that proves your point - for either party really, if asked a particular question  to suit - I do think the RSPB is a more proven site as it is there to protect birds and is not denying that cats are a problem - just not as big a problem as many other factors


can you show me their studies then?


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

RAINYBOW said:


> I did a bit of googling yesterday and came up with the same as you, lots on climate change and pesticides etc but not much about cats.
> 
> You would think the RSPB would be the ones in this country to be shouting about it if cats were a significant issue to birds so IMO this is a reliable source of information


Yes I had a quick nosey today but was just looking for UK info.
(There is info on the US)

Mind you the RSPB is a 5 min drive for me so could have gone in and asked!!

I also came across a great article which was giving both good and bad points for indoor/outdoor cats.

An interesting read concerning the psychological needs that indoor cats may be missing and behavioural problems brought on by being indoors etc...

But thought as it was copyrighted best not put on here.

Besides as mentioned I have already said I have done both and see good and bad in both.


----------



## RAINYBOW

lulubel said:


> Personally, I don't think you can. There are probably very few adult cats that have been used to going outside that will be happy with an indoor life, and I agree that a short, happy life is better than a long, miserable one.
> 
> But I would never recommend to anyone getting a new kitten that they should let it outside on its own. Sadly, the world is a dangerous place for cats.


I think it would be one of the considerations if i ever thought about another cat. My house is too busy to ensure "lock down" at all times for starters so an indoor cat just isnt an option for me (also my cat hating spaniel makes the decision for me ). I would never have let a kitten out until it had matured anyway and even then it would be a gradual thing.

The 2 cats next door are a big problem round here as they are very territorial and aggresive with it, they were a big factor in why i allowed Billy to move in with the lady down the road because they kept ambushing him everytime he came back here 

Think i will save cats for when i am older and life is quieter


----------



## noushka05

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Yes I had a quick nosey today but was just looking for UK info.
> (There is info on the US)
> 
> Mind you the RSPB is a 5 min drive for me so could have gone in and asked!!
> 
> I also came across a great article which was giving both good and bad points for indoor/outdoor cats.
> 
> An interesting read concerning the psychological needs that indoor cats may be missing and behavioural problems brought on by being indoors etc...
> 
> But thought as it was copyrighted best not put on here.
> 
> Besides as mentioned I have already said I have done both and see good and bad in both.


domestic cats are the same species the world over and kill native wildlife where ever they go, less studies have been done in the UK than some other countries...............and none by the RSPB as far as im aware


----------



## noushka05

DoubleTrouble said:


> Please it all went well at the dentist Noush! Great to see that you ain't lost your voice :w00t:
> lol
> DT


haha nope my chompers are in fine form tar....but im off out again in a mo so dont all miss me at once:


----------



## RAINYBOW

noushka05 said:


> you really dont have to google hard at all just type in domestic cat invasive species because thats the term conservationists use for them.
> believe me the RSPB has very conflicting views of many things which is why i would never support them...but if they actually have done studies than great.. i would love to see them.
> 
> in your case Rainy i have to say i think you did the right thing for Billy he was already set in his ways pretty much like the ferals ive spoke about earlier....but im seriously concerned with cat ownership growing all the time that if people dont start taking responsibility for their pets we will lose more of our precious wildlife who are already strugging to survive against all the pressures upon them.


So if people want to see legislation to control the problems and accept that "some" cats really wouldn't be happy indoors then what about a restriction on how many cats per household and a law that sais they must be neutered unless you hold a breeders licence which would be subject to certain "regulations" ?? (introduced over time obviously, i am not suggesting anyone with 5 cats has to evict 4 of them )


----------



## Guest

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Yes I had a quick nosey today but was just looking for UK info.
> (There is info on the US)
> 
> Mind you the RSPB is a 5 min drive for me so could have gone in and asked!!
> 
> I also came across a great article which was giving both good and bad points for indoor/outdoor cats.
> 
> An interesting read concerning the psychological needs that indoor cats may be missing and behavioural problems brought on by being indoors etc...
> 
> But thought as it was copyrighted best not put on here.
> 
> Besides as mentioned I have already said I have done both and see good and bad in both.


I believe you are OK if you put the link on are you not?


----------



## Sacrechat

Excellent links Noushka05 and just as good and valid as other links posted. Don't let anyone tell you differently.:001_smile:


----------



## RAINYBOW

Sacremist said:


> Excellent links Noushka05 and just as good and valid as other links posted. Don't let anyone tell you differently.:001_smile:


I don't think anyone did  I think it was merely noted that a Nationally Recognised organisation that is set up soley for the protection of birds would be considered by most to be a reliable source.

Noone said what Noush posted wasn't


----------



## dougal22

koekemakranka said:


> Agree completely. I think perhaps we are all arguing about nothing. *If I lived in a rural area away from traffic and dangerous humans and animals*, then certainly I would let my cats out. It would be wonderful. But I do live on a busy street and there are feral and other cats wandering around my neighbourhood. Poisonings are quite common in my country (for instance it has happened that burglars use what they call "two step" poison to poison all dogs on a property so that they can burgle in peace). I weighed the risks and realised the risks of allowing my cats to wander freely were too great. I do worry about wildlife though, but am not an authority on predation as all my cats are pretty useless at hunting, so I don't know what the impact would be if they were good hunters.


I don't think that ^^^^ rural area exists 

My in-laws lived in a very rural part of Shropshire, ie: the middle of nowhere. Both of their cats were killed by foxes as were 
their ducks  All had hideous deaths. My point being, nowhere is safe from dangers, it's called life. You just have to make your decision and live with the consequences.


----------



## Sacrechat

RAINYBOW said:


> So if people want to see legislation to control the problems and accept that "some" cats really wouldn't be happy indoors then what about a restriction on how many cats per household and a law that sais they must be neutered unless you hold a breeders licence which would be subject to certain "regulations" ?? (introduced over time obviously, i am not suggesting anyone with 5 cats has to evict 4 of them )


And how would this help with cats in rescue problem?


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

DoubleTrouble said:


> I believe you are OK if you put the link on are you not?


Ok just for you DT 

The Indoor Outdoor Debate


----------



## noushka05

RAINYBOW said:


> So if people want to see legislation to control the problems and accept that "some" cats really wouldn't be happy indoors then what about a restriction on how many cats per household and a law that sais they must be neutered unless you hold a breeders licence which would be subject to certain "regulations" ?? (introduced over time obviously, i am not suggesting anyone with 5 cats has to evict 4 of them )


 this is the way i see it... if people get a cat they keep it secure, if its a feral or an adopted stray for example then deffo neuter try to get a bell on them, if possible keep them in at night and i suppose this is a long shot if theyre not use to being indoors but try to keep them in during the spring when theres lots of baby animals:tongue_smilie:, i dont know about restrictions to the amount of cats, because im sure some folk on here for example have several and keep them wonderfully..but i think all cats not used for breeding should most certainly be 'done'....then eventually all the older cats who arnt use to living indoors and all the ferals will die out, and with all the other cats kept secure.....the problems solved!:thumbsup: and our wildlife will have one less pressure to contend with!


----------



## Sacrechat

RAINYBOW said:


> I don't think anyone did  I think it was merely noted that a Nationally Recognised organisation that is set up soley for the protection of birds would be considered by most to be a reliable source.
> 
> Noone said what Noush posted wasn't


But as noushka has pointed out several times, but she has been ignored, the RSPB have not to her knowledge carried out any studied to support their claims. Therefore how can you trust what that report says. She has asked that proof of these studies be shown but up to now no proof has been produced just a very tenuous link making unsubstantiated claims.

I am not as knowledgeable as noushka on this particular subject so I am relying on her knowledge to guide me, so if she asks to see evidence of the study done to support that article, I would like to see it too. I don't care what official title an organisation gives itself, if that organisation is going to make claims, I want to see what studies they have done to support those claims.


----------



## noushka05

Sacremist said:


> Excellent links Noushka05 and just as good and valid as other links posted. Don't let anyone tell you differently.:001_smile:


haha thanks and no i wont



RAINYBOW said:


> I don't think anyone did  I think it was merely noted that a Nationally Recognised organisation that is set up soley for the protection of birds would be considered by most to be a reliable source.
> 
> Noone said what Noush posted wasn't


anyone found any RSPB studies yet:tongue_smilie:


----------



## koekemakranka

RAINYBOW said:


> So if people want to see legislation to control the problems and accept that "some" cats really wouldn't be happy indoors then what about a restriction on how many cats per household and a law that sais they must be neutered unless you hold a breeders licence which would be subject to certain "regulations" ?? (introduced over time obviously, i am not suggesting anyone with 5 cats has to evict 4 of them )


Some of our city councils have done exactly that (dogs and cats). However, as usual, the legislators didn't think things through properly and didn't take into account private rescue shelters etc. The idea is that if you have more than x pets, you have to get rid of the excess.  There has been uproar. Some "cluster" residential developments (sort of like a gated community) also took it upon themselves to limit the number of animals allowed per household (some even with the proviso that if one of the animals died, then they could not get a replacement animal"). The legislation is applied like a blunt instrument as usual and only law-abiding citizens will abide by it. I don't see how it would stop illegal animal hoarders in any case. I also live in a cluster of 4 houses and luckily my neighbour is also a cat lover, so the cat hater will not be able to get a majority vote at this stage (let's hope): I told him I would fight him to the death if he makes any move on my cats (another reason I catproofed my garden BTW: to keep him out).


----------



## RAINYBOW

Sacremist said:


> And how would this help with cats in rescue problem?


If pet cats were neutered and people had to have licences to breed that cost money and had "regulations" attached then i would imagine there would be a significant impact of cats needing rescuing over time, accidental matings would pretty much stop.

(my suggestion was a tad tongue in cheek as it is clearly a very oversimplistic view of the problem and wasn't really offered as an absolute solution )


----------



## catsmum

Chez87 said:


> Which is exactly why my cat is insured. I don't have thousands in the bank for vet treatment, but seeing as I choose to let my cat out, the least I can do is make sure I can treat him if he gets injured.


good for you! far too many owners of cats who go outdoors dont have pet insurance and also dont have the money to pay for vet treatment when their cat gets knocked down by a car, poisoned, mauled by a dog or has its head kicked in by yobs. far too many cats are put to sleep because of this combination of freedom to go outside and owners who cant foot vet bills.


----------



## suzy93074

noushka05 said:


> can you show me their studies then?


I was going by what Cockerpoo posted from the RSPB - they surely cannot post untrue information??


----------



## Sacrechat

suzy93074 said:


> - I do think the RSPB is a more proven site


So..... You didn't say this? You being Suzy. Does this statement note say the RSPB link is superior to noushkas.


----------



## koekemakranka

RAINYBOW said:


> If pet cats were neutered and people had to have licences to breed that cost money and had "regulations" attached then i would imagine there would be a significant impact of cats needing rescuing over time, accidental matings would pretty much stop.
> 
> (my suggestion was a tad tongue in cheek as it is clearly a very oversimplistic view of the problem and wasn't really offered as an absolute solution )


In principle, a permit/license system may work, except, again, only law-abiding people would comply and it will be them that would suffer regular inspections by council mafia for "illicit" pets. Wouldn't do much for the rescue situation though, because people may then just dump "excess" pets.
The problem, as always, is policing a system.:cryin:


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

The links I gave for the RSPB and the outdoor/indoor debate was to provide an interesting read for those who are still contributing to this thread.

It's up to you whether you wish to discredit any of it. Some people like to take large organisations on face value other needs proof.

I don't see what the RSPB would gain from false info though?


----------



## Sacrechat

suzy93074 said:


> I was going by what Cockerpoo posted from the RSPB - they surely cannot post untrue information??


People are always posting untrue information, just because they have an official title doesn't mean we can trust all that they say.


----------



## suzy93074

Sacremist said:


> People are always posting untrue information, just because they have an official title doesn't mean we can trust all that they say.


Which is why it works both ways and some info Noush has posted may not be completely true either


----------



## Sacrechat

Cockerpoo lover said:


> The links I gave for the RSPB and the outdoor/indoor debate was to provide an interesting read for those who are still contributing to this thread.
> 
> It's up to you whether you wish to discredit any of it. Some people like to take large organisations on face value other needs proof.
> 
> I don't see what the RSPB would gain from false info though?


Like I said before, I'm not an expert. I have watched documentaries on the subject that's all. Noushka says no studies have been carried out by the RSPB. She has asked to see those studies if she is wrong. Produce the studies and she will accept it as correct and so will I.


----------



## RAINYBOW

This is interesting if you can plough through it. It is not specific to cats but does cover the topic of predation and shows how complex it really is and includes studies made into looking at predation as a whole.

Although it does give mention to cats it certainly does not appear to suggest in anyway they are a huge contributor to the decline in bird populations.

In some species there is evidence of decline but in other species there are not so while they suggest caution there does not appear to be major concern.

http://www.rspb.org.uk/Images/Predator Report_tcm9-177905.pdf


----------



## Sacrechat

suzy93074 said:


> Which is why it works both ways and some info Noush has posted may not be completely true either


Agreed, but I wouldn't mind betting noushka could direct us to sources who can.


----------



## RAINYBOW

koekemakranka said:


> In principle, a permit/license system may work, except, again, only law-abiding people would comply and it will be them that would suffer regular inspections by council mafia for "illicit" pets. Wouldn't do much for the rescue situation though, because people may then just dump "excess" pets.
> The problem, as always, is policing a system.:cryin:


Like i said it was an oversimplistic suggestion and i added the point about people not being expected to suddenly evict all their existing cats .

I have said this about dog breeding though that i do think a breeding licence that cost money and had "regulations" attached would deter alot of law abiding people who think "oh we will just have one litter of cute kittens/puppies for the "experience" and they do contribute to the rescue issue


----------



## Cleo38

But reading form the link posted previously from the Mammal Society the following statements are included in the report: (my bold)

_Most domestic cats depend on food supplied by their owners. Therefore, their populations are not limited by the availability of wild prey. Cats frequently kill wild animals and the combined impact of predation by millions of cats *may *have a substantial effect on wildlife. This prospect has previously been highlighted by several authors (Churcher & Lawton, 1987; May, 1988; Barratt, 1997, 1998). The recent rapid declines seen in British populations of many farmland and garden birds (Mead 2000), *and the increasing importance of gardens for a range of small birds *(Mead 2000), has led to renewed concern over the potential impact of cat predation on bird populations. However, experimental evaluations of the impact of cat predation on wildlife remain scarce and assessments of factors that might mitigate any such impact often lead to public controversy, arising from concern about the welfare of cats (May, 1988; Proulx, 1988; Fitzgerald, 1990; Jarvis, 1990). _

May have an impact.

Also it infers that some birds may be coming in to gardens more frequently so are they are coming in to a cats territory?

_Churcher & Lawton (1987) calculated that in a single English village, cats were responsible for up to 30% of mortality in a house sparrow population and concluded that domestic cats were a major predator in a typical English village. They found that the average cat caught and brought home approximately 14 prey items over the 12 months of their survey. May (1988) extrapolated from this figure and suggested that about 100 million wild birds and small mammals *could *be killed by 6 million cats every year in Britain. Mead (1982) ascribed 31% of recoveries of ringed robins and dunnocks to cat predation, *but believed that there was no evidence that cats affected the overall populations of these species*. Sharing this view, Fitzgerald (1988) and Fitzgerald & Turner (2000) asserted that on continental landmasses, *wildlife had co-evolved with cats for hundreds of generations and that any species that were susceptible to predation would be "long extinct*"_

I do realise that I have chosen extracts - there is a lot of info there & it is interesting but i can't go through it line by line! The studies do show that cats are predatory & are killing animals but in no way does it show (in this country) that wildlife is at risk becuase of cats. There is no mentions of how many prey species are belived to be in the area so how can it be calculated what % cats are killing?


----------



## suzy93074

Found this from the Mammal Society albeit its probably a little out of date

Domestic Cat Predation on Wildlife


----------



## RAINYBOW

Anyone see the link i posted on predation from the RSPB ?? WITH studies 

Just incase anyone missed it

http://www.rspb.org.uk/Images/Predator Report_tcm9-177905.pdf

:tongue_smilie:


----------



## Kitty_pig

My old cat used to bring small birds, mice, voles and a rat once or twice. It may well be the case that cats don't cause too much damage population wise, however I dont particularly like picking up a dead baby blackbird off the floor  , or watch my cat pounce on a frog repeatedly  

As for the most recent neutering comment, thats your opinion but Id rather neuter my pet than watch a small cat in agony as she gives birth to a kitten that is too big, or dies giving birth because I don't know exactly how to look after her as she gives birth (I'm no cat breeder).


----------



## RAINYBOW

Kitty_pig said:


> My old cat used to bring small birds, mice, voles and a rat once or twice. It may well be the case that cats don't cause too much damage population wise, however I dont particularly like picking up a dead baby blackbird off the floor  , or watch my cat pounce on a frog repeatedly
> 
> As for the most recent neutering comment, thats your opinion but Id rather neuter my pet than watch a small cat in agony as she gives birth to a kitten that is too big, or dies giving birth because I don't know exactly how to look after her as she gives birth (I'm no cat breeder).


It's horrible when they bring stuff in  Genuinely it is a significant reason for me not having another cat ever because i actually have a proper phobia of cats with their prey, hard to explain but a very real problem for me.


----------



## Amethyst

lulubel said:


> Personally, I don't think you can. There are probably very few adult cats that have been used to going outside that will be happy with an indoor life,


I think that actually you would be surprised ... I was 

In my experience many rescue cats adapt well, I said in an earlier example my sister's cat is a fine example! That said many of the cats that were originally rescues that I re-homed had had a rough time and I think perhaps valued their indoor luxury 

I would not want anyone who wanted an indoor cat to be put off adopting an adult rescue ... It's just a case of finding the right cat 

And yes, some rescued DO adopt out to indoor homes


----------



## Kitty_pig

RAINYBOW said:


> It's horrible when they bring stuff in  Genuinely it is a significant reason for me not having another cat ever because i actually have a proper phobia of cats with their prey, hard to explain but a very real problem for me.


i can understand that completely. it isnt nice at all


----------



## koekemakranka

Amethyst said:


> I think that actually you would be surprised ... I was
> 
> In my experience many rescue cats adapt well, I said in an earlier example my sister's cat is a fine example! That said many of the cats that were originally rescues that I re-homed had had a rough time and I think perhaps valued their indoor luxury
> 
> I would not want anyone who wanted an indoor cat to be put off adopting an adult rescue ... It's just a case of finding the right cat
> 
> And yes, some rescued DO adopt out to indoor homes


My two youngest females are both rescues and are really homebodies. They are always back inside after about 15 minutes in the garden (unless I am in the garden too).


----------



## Amethyst

Kitty_pig said:


> i can understand that completely. it isnt nice at all


I'll be honest and say I don't think I could go back to it now, no matter how natural people (generalising) may say it is, I can still remember the starlings shrieking as my childhood cat killed another of their mates


----------



## Amethyst

koekemakranka said:


> My two youngest females are both rescues and are really homebodies. They are always back inside after about 15 minutes in the garden (unless I am in the garden too).


That's very often the case, tend to become "home bodies" :001_wub:

Though some no doubt still like to prowl if given the chance.


----------



## RAINYBOW

Like i have said previously if i wanted an indoor cat then i would most definately look at an older rescue  I do think cats generally (but not always as was not the case with Billy) get less inclined to roam when they reach their geriatric years 

My lovely house (if it was quiet) would be significantly nicer than being in a rescue run waiting for a home being passed over every day because you are old


----------



## Kitty_pig

Amethyst said:


> I'll be honest and say I don't think I could go back to it now, no matter how natural people (generalising) may say it is, I can still remember the starlings shrieking as my childhood cat killed another of their mates


Thats awful  We have a few bird tables and baths etc for the local birds, last thing we want is any cats getting them. Tom (our 9 year old moggy) is too lazy to hunt them, he can usually be found lounging in the grass as the birds feed around him :lol: one of these days i will find one has landed on his head :lol:


----------



## koekemakranka

It is upsetting. Luckily my cats are pretty useless at hunting birds and the birds in our garden are generally quite assertive species, e.g. bulbuls and louries and so on who tease the cats until they retire inside. My cats do bring in lizards, though, which greatly upsets me. Usually I am able to rescue these and release them back into the garden, but still. There is not one lizard with a tail left in my garden GRRRRRRR:nono:


----------



## Cleo38

Kitty_pig said:


> Thats awful  We have a few bird tables and baths etc for the local birds, last thing we want is any cats getting them. Tom (our 9 year old moggy) is too lazy to hunt them, he can usually be found lounging in the grass as the birds feed around him :lol: one of these days i will find one has landed on his head :lol:


My sisters cat used to hunt alot but he's a lazy old sod now. They had mice a few years ago - quite a few of them & we watched Douglas laying on the kitchen floor with mice almost running over him without batting an eyelid.

There was quite a few evenings when I would be baby sitting & would suddenly sdee a frog hopping out from under the sofa - anorher present bought in by one of the cats. They never seemed to harm the frogs for some reason


----------



## Kitty_pig

Cleo38 said:


> My sisters cat used to hunt alot but he's a lazy old sod now. They had mice a few years ago - quite a few of them & we watched Douglas laying on the kitchen floor with mice almost running over him without batting an eyelid.
> 
> There was quite a few evenings when I would be baby sitting & would suddenly sdee a frog hopping out from under the sofa - anorher present bought in by one of the cats. They never seemed to harm the frogs for some reason


I dont think frogs skin tastes very nice does it? the frogs used to scare tom, think their hopping was just too strange for him ::lol::


----------



## noushka05

suzy93074 said:


> I was going by what Cockerpoo posted from the RSPB - they surely cannot post untrue information??





Cockerpoo lover said:


> The links I gave for the RSPB and the outdoor/indoor debate was to provide an interesting read for those who are still contributing to this thread.
> 
> It's up to you whether you wish to discredit any of it. Some people like to take large organisations on face value other needs proof.
> 
> I don't see what the RSPB would gain from false info though?





suzy93074 said:


> Which is why it works both ways and some info Noush has posted may not be completely true either


well well well it seems the RSPB havent even done any studies or surveys of their own: the link put up by Cockerpoo lover leads to the survey done by the Mammal Society and seems they draw a totally different conclusion to the RSPB.....

In Britain, most prey species have evolved under the selective pressure of predation by numerous species of wild mammalian and avian predator, albeit living at relatively low densities. Thus, these species are likely to be relatively tolerant of predation when compared to the more vulnerable fauna of oceanic islands. Nevertheless, the continuous pressure of predation by carnivores living at high densities and that are not in any way regulated by the availability of wild prey, could be considered analogous to the process of hyperpredation on oceanic islands (Smith & Quin, 1996; Courchamp et al., 1999). This is the process whereby native species are threatened by occasional predation by a large population of introduced predators that is sustained by abundant introduced prey species that are in turn well adapted to high predation pressure. A constantly renewed food source, i.e. provision of food by householders, may be compared to the ready availability of introduced rats or rabbits on oceanic islands (Courchamp et al., 1999). It is conceivable that predation by superabundant and well-fed predators such as domestic cats, could lead to the decline of continental species, if only on a local or temporary basis. Baker et al. (2003) recorded a negative relationship between numbers of wood mice and the numbers of cats visiting suburban gardens. This suggests that high levels of cat activity may deplete the numbers of otherwise common species, such as wood mice, in local areas. It is not possible directly to discern the process of hyperpredation in the data recorded here, though the occurrence of species of growing conservation concern among the prey records, such as water shrews, yellow-necked mice and harvest mice (Marsh, Poulton & Harris, 2001; Greenwood, Churchfield & Hickey, 2002; Moore, Askew & Bishop, 2003) gives additional cause for concern. Churcher & Lawton (1987) concluded that cats had a significant impact on house sparrows in the village they studied. A potential link between the frequent occurrence of sparrow predation in this and other studies and the pronounced decline in this species throughout Britain, should, therefore be considered and experimental work is called for in the light of this descriptive study. This echoes the recent suggestion of Crick, Robinson & Siriwardena (2002) that targeted studies are required to investigate the role of predation by domestic cats in the decline of house sparrows, particularly in urban areas.

In conclusion, this survey confirms that cats are major predators of wildlife in Britain. Further investigation of the extent and nature of predatory behaviour among domestic cats is clearly warranted by this initial work. In particular, detailed observation of cats in the field and description of the numbers of animals they kill and the proportion they retrieve are essential. Investigation of the response and attitude of cat owners living in a range of environments to the predatory behaviour of their cats would also be valuable (Coleman & Temple, 1993). Although this was not an experimental study, there were differences in the numbers of wild animals brought home by cats subjected to different management regimes. Experimental studies of the effects of equipping cats with bells (Ruxton et al. 2002) or other devices, keeping cats indoors at night and feeding birds will all be essential for evaluating the desirability and likely success of attempts to reduce the numbers of animals killed by growing cat populations.


----------



## Aurelia

Cockerpoo lover said:


> The links I gave for the RSPB and the outdoor/indoor debate was to provide an interesting read for those who are still contributing to this thread.
> 
> It's up to you whether you wish to discredit any of it. Some people like to take large organisations on face value other needs proof.
> 
> *I don't see what the RSPB would gain from false info though*?


You really don't?

How many of the donors that pay the RSPB monthly do you think own cats?


----------



## noushka05

Aurelia said:


> You really don't?
> 
> How many of the donors that pay the RSPB monthly do you think own cats?


exactly........ive now come across several issues where the RSPB lose credibilty, as ive said before not an organisation i could ever support


----------



## Amethyst

Aurelia said:


> You really don't?
> 
> How many of the donors that pay the RSPB monthly do you think own cats?


That's an interesting point!


----------



## Mistyweather

My twopennorth on this topic: When my kids were young, they and the dogs were forever finding messes that my next door neighbours cats had done, in our garden. One did not even try to bury it. If you are responsible and own a dog then you pick up its messes but I never saw my neighbour doing this for her cats


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

Aurelia said:


> You really don't?
> 
> How many of the donors that pay the RSPB monthly do you think own cats?


I wouldn't know but it if it's of interest to you why don't you do some research and find out and enlighten us all?


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

noushka05 said:


> well well well it seems the RSPB havent even done any studies or surveys of their own: the link put up by Cockerpoo lover leads to the survey done by the Mammal Society and seems they draw a totally different conclusion to the RSPB.....
> 
> In Britain, most prey species have evolved under the selective pressure of predation by numerous species of wild mammalian and avian predator, albeit living at relatively low densities. Thus, these species are likely to be relatively tolerant of predation when compared to the more vulnerable fauna of oceanic islands. Nevertheless, the continuous pressure of predation by carnivores living at high densities and that are not in any way regulated by the availability of wild prey, could be considered analogous to the process of hyperpredation on oceanic islands (Smith & Quin, 1996; Courchamp et al., 1999). This is the process whereby native species are threatened by occasional predation by a large population of introduced predators that is sustained by abundant introduced prey species that are in turn well adapted to high predation pressure. A constantly renewed food source, i.e. provision of food by householders, may be compared to the ready availability of introduced rats or rabbits on oceanic islands (Courchamp et al., 1999). It is conceivable that predation by superabundant and well-fed predators such as domestic cats, could lead to the decline of continental species, if only on a local or temporary basis. Baker et al. (2003) recorded a negative relationship between numbers of wood mice and the numbers of cats visiting suburban gardens. This suggests that high levels of cat activity may deplete the numbers of otherwise common species, such as wood mice, in local areas. It is not possible directly to discern the process of hyperpredation in the data recorded here, though the occurrence of species of growing conservation concern among the prey records, such as water shrews, yellow-necked mice and harvest mice (Marsh, Poulton & Harris, 2001; Greenwood, Churchfield & Hickey, 2002; Moore, Askew & Bishop, 2003) gives additional cause for concern. *Churcher & Lawton (1987) concluded that cats had a significant impact on house sparrows in the village they studied.*[/B] A potential link between the frequent occurrence of sparrow predation in this and other studies and the pronounced decline in this species throughout Britain, should, therefore be considered and experimental work is called for in the light of this descriptive study. This echoes the recent suggestion of Crick, Robinson & Siriwardena (2002) that targeted studies are required to investigate the role of predation by domestic cats in the decline of house sparrows, particularly in urban areas.
> 
> In conclusion, this survey confirms that cats are major predators of wildlife in Britain. Further investigation of the extent and nature of predatory behaviour among domestic cats is clearly warranted by this initial work. In particular, detailed observation of cats in the field and description of the numbers of animals they kill and the proportion they retrieve are essential. Investigation of the response and attitude of cat owners living in a range of environments to the predatory behaviour of their cats would also be valuable ]*(Coleman Temple, 1993).* Although this was not an experimental study, there were differences in the numbers of wild animals brought home by cats subjected to different management regimes. Experimental studies of the effects of equipping cats with bells (Ruxton et al. 2002) or other devices, keeping cats indoors at night and feeding birds will all be essential for evaluating the desirability and likely success of attempts to reduce the numbers of animals killed by growing cat populations.


With reference to your Coleman and Temple and Lawton studies I found this:

While you're conducting your research, please remember many of the "pro
bird" studies' data aren't direct data obtained during the actual study -
because there was no actual study. Many of the pro-bird studies are
actually other researchers' interpretations of another researcher's
interpretation of some original obscure study.

In addition, almost *all* of the astronomical numbers of killed/caught prey
reported in these pro-bird studies are *only* extrapolations from other very
small studies. Many of the extrapolations of the average number of prey
caught/cat/year from smaller studies to larger cat populations often include
large cities, where many cats are kept indoors and also
include cats that eirher too old or too young to hunt. So even though the
total number of cats for a given area may jive with local estimates, the
number of actual hunters may only be a fraction of the total population.
This would *drastically* reduce the accuracy of the estimated number of prey
caught/cat/year.

*The Churcher and Lawton study* is one of these bogus studies... the
methodology was seriously flawed. C&L asked owners of 78 cats in the
village to keep all the dead animals their cats brought home. They divided
the
total number of kills by the 78 cats and multiplied the average number of
kills per cat by the 5 million cats in England at the time.... including
London and other
big
cities where many cats are kept indoors. (They also included very old and
very young cats who probably didn't even hunt.) From these figures, C&L
concluded that 5 million cats were responsible for killing about 70 million
animals every year -- of which about 20 million are birds.... You can
imagine how many feathers that piece of fiction ruffled....

*Another incrediblely manipulative and deceptive author to be wary of is
Stanley A. Temple --* In all his articles he cites references for his
data.... Almost all of references he cites and quotes to substantiate his
absurd claims are other articles *he* wrote! In those articles, he cites
and quotes even more articles that *he* wrote.... IOW, he's his own
reference! IOW, "If you don't believe and want proof, just ask *me*"!

In one of his delusions, Temple states rural free-ranging domestic cats in
Wisconsin may be killing between 8 and 217 million birds each year....Gee,
does Wisconsin even have 200 million birds...?

I have skimmed the mammal society's survey so I could be wrong but no-where did I see that when calculating the prey got by the cats how many of the species caught were old and frail or about to die?
As previously mentioned via RSPB cats do go for the weaker so these were going to die anyway so is it fair to say that a cat caused their demise in numbers in this survey.


----------



## RAINYBOW

noushka05 said:


> well well well it seems the RSPB havent even done any studies or surveys of their own: the link put up by Cockerpoo lover leads to the survey done by the Mammal Society and seems they draw a totally different conclusion to the RSPB.....
> 
> In Britain, most prey species have evolved under the selective pressure of predation by numerous species of wild mammalian and avian predator, albeit living at relatively low densities. Thus, these species are likely to be relatively tolerant of predation when compared to the more vulnerable fauna of oceanic islands. Nevertheless, the continuous pressure of predation by carnivores living at high densities and that are not in any way regulated by the availability of wild prey, could be considered analogous to the process of hyperpredation on oceanic islands (Smith & Quin, 1996; Courchamp et al., 1999). This is the process whereby native species are threatened by occasional predation by a large population of introduced predators that is sustained by abundant introduced prey species that are in turn well adapted to high predation pressure. A constantly renewed food source, i.e. provision of food by householders, may be compared to the ready availability of introduced rats or rabbits on oceanic islands (Courchamp et al., 1999). It is conceivable that predation by superabundant and well-fed predators such as domestic cats, could lead to the decline of continental species, if only on a local or temporary basis. Baker et al. (2003) recorded a negative relationship between numbers of wood mice and the numbers of cats visiting suburban gardens. This suggests that high levels of cat activity may deplete the numbers of otherwise common species, such as wood mice, in local areas. It is not possible directly to discern the process of hyperpredation in the data recorded here, though the occurrence of species of growing conservation concern among the prey records, such as water shrews, yellow-necked mice and harvest mice (Marsh, Poulton & Harris, 2001; Greenwood, Churchfield & Hickey, 2002; Moore, Askew & Bishop, 2003) gives additional cause for concern. Churcher & Lawton (1987) concluded that cats had a significant impact on house sparrows in the village they studied. A potential link between the frequent occurrence of sparrow predation in this and other studies and the pronounced decline in this species throughout Britain, should, therefore be considered and experimental work is called for in the light of this descriptive study. This echoes the recent suggestion of Crick, Robinson & Siriwardena (2002) that targeted studies are required to investigate the role of predation by domestic cats in the decline of house sparrows, particularly in urban areas.
> 
> In conclusion, this survey confirms that cats are major predators of wildlife in Britain. Further investigation of the extent and nature of predatory behaviour among domestic cats is clearly warranted by this initial work. In particular, detailed observation of cats in the field and description of the numbers of animals they kill and the proportion they retrieve are essential. Investigation of the response and attitude of cat owners living in a range of environments to the predatory behaviour of their cats would also be valuable (Coleman & Temple, 1993). Although this was not an experimental study, there were differences in the numbers of wild animals brought home by cats subjected to different management regimes. Experimental studies of the effects of equipping cats with bells (Ruxton et al. 2002) or other devices, keeping cats indoors at night and feeding birds will all be essential for evaluating the desirability and likely success of attempts to reduce the numbers of animals killed by growing cat populations.


Did you miss my link then ? I posted it twice to make sure :tongue_smilie:


----------



## Amethyst

Mistyweather said:


> My twopennorth on this topic: When my kids were young, they and the dogs were forever finding messes that my next door neighbours cats had done, in our garden. One did not even try to bury it. If you are responsible and own a dog then you pick up its messes but I never saw my neighbour doing this for her cats


I know the one that poo's on sister's lawn drives her nuts, she has a cat herself but he doesn't go further than doorstep, so maybe that attracts the cat?

It's a shame because her grandchildren like to sit in the garden and it's bit off putting when a cat is using it for a toilet 

I had a cat spray against my front to door the other week, and we have not had cats here for about 3 years 
He, presuming it was the same cat poo'ed right in front of my door a couple of days later ... don't know what I've done to upset him!

So cats on the loose can be a bit of a pain ... or dare I say their owners allow them to be in that respect! It is indeed funny that people who would never allow their dog to foul ... don't worry where their cats do 

I'm ashamed to say I just used to think, well I have trays for them to use, but of course they must surely have gone other places! I cringe now when I think about it


----------



## RAINYBOW

Aurelia said:


> You really don't?
> 
> How many of the donors that pay the RSPB monthly do you think own cats?


Thats a bit too "conspiracy theory" for me  Got any evidence for that


----------



## RAINYBOW

Amethyst said:


> I know the one that poo's on sister's lawn drives her nuts, she has a cat herself but he doesn't go further than doorstep, so maybe that attracts the cat?
> 
> It's a shame because her grandchildren like to sit in the garden and it's bit off putting when a cat is using it for a toilet
> 
> I had a cat spray against my front to door the other week, and we have not had cats here for about 3 years
> He, presuming it was the same cat poo'ed right in front of my door a couple of days later ... don't know what I've done to upset him!
> 
> So cats on the loose can be a bit of a pain ... or dare I say their owners allow them to be in that respect! It is indeed funny that people who would never allow their dog to foul ... don't worry where their cats do
> 
> I'm ashamed to say I just used to think, well I have trays for them to use, but of course they must surely have gone other places! I cringe now when I think about it


There is a simple solution to stopping cats from pooing in your garden..... Borrow Oscar  I don't charge much


----------



## Amethyst

RAINYBOW said:


> Thats a bit too "conspiracy theory" for me  Got any evidence for that


To be honest, you could understand why though?

Cat owning RSPB supporters who allow their cats to roam are not going to welcome an article suggesting that thier lovely little kitties are detrimental to bird numbers and if they really loved birds they should keep them indoors 

I think any such article would have to be very CAREFULLY worded as ... as we have seen people can be very sensitive when it comes to their "free range" kitties


----------



## Amethyst

RAINYBOW said:


> There is a simple solution to stopping cats from pooing in your garden..... Borrow Oscar  I don't charge much


Kinder than a catapult ... I remember hearing years ago about a cat that lost it's eye because a neighbour got sick of it dirtying in their garden 

To be honest I think a lot of the deliberate cruelty and poisonings arise from cats messing in gardens and digging up plants etc

Just a theory ... no scientific proof to back it up mind you


----------



## RAINYBOW

Amethyst said:


> To be honest, you could understand why though?
> 
> Cat owning RSPB supporters who allow their cats to roam are not going to welcome an article suggesting that thier lovely little kitties are detrimental to bird numbers and if they really loved birds they should keep them indoors
> 
> I think any such article would have to be very CAREFULLY worded as ... as we have seen people can be very sensitive when it comes to their "free range" kitties


The study i posted in no way *discounts *the impact of cats on certain species of bird, infact it sais that they must be considered as a real potential threat to some but if you can skim read that link you will see that predation is way more complicated than that. For example one species of bird that are often caught by cats has declined as numbers of cats have increased BUT another has not  There is also interesting reading on that report about how if predation increases sometimes species survival rates actually increase because come winter there is more food available to the young that survive so more survive over winter 

The impression that is being given on here is that cats are a *major *problem and i am disputing that rather than denying they are a problem at all


----------



## RAINYBOW

Amethyst said:


> Kinder than a catapult ... I remember hearing years ago about a cat that lost it's eye because a neighbour got sick of it dirtying in their garden
> 
> To be honest I think a lot of the deliberate cruelty and poisonings arise from cats messing in gardens and digging up plants etc
> 
> Just a theory ... no scientific proof to back it up mind you


I would agree with you on that score i have to say  Now THERE is a good argument for cat proofing gardens  Let those that don't want them in cat proof to protect thier plants or stop the mess  Or borrow Oscar for a day every month for a nominal charge


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

RAINYBOW said:


> The study i posted in no way *discounts *the impact of cats on certain species of bird, infact it sais that they must be considered as a real potential threat to some but if you can skim read that link you will see that predation is way more complicated than that. For example one species of bird that are often caught by cats has declined as numbers of cats have increased BUT another has not  There is also interesting reading on that report about how if predation increases sometimes species survival rates actually increase because come winter there is more food available to the young that survive so more survive over winter
> 
> The impression that is being given on here is that cats are a *major *problem and i am disputing that rather than denying they are a problem at all


The impression I was getting it's the OWNERS that let their cats out that were causing major problems with wildlife 

The moggies were getting off scot free because it's up to us to choose whether we let them out or not


----------



## Amethyst

RAINYBOW said:


> The impression that is being given on here is that cats are a *major *problem and i am disputing that rather than denying they are a problem at all


To be honest, I really don't know how reliable data _could _be collected?

I don't see cat owners being willing or wanting to tot up the number of birds and type, that their cats are killing 

Perhaps especially if they are birds which may be deemed at risk or vulnerable 

Would there be any other way of doing it, I would imagine any method would need the co operation of cat owners?


----------



## RAINYBOW

Cockerpoo lover said:


> The impression I was getting it's the OWNERS that let their cats out that were causing major problems with wildlife
> 
> The moggies were getting off scot free because it's up to us to choose whether we let them out or not


Well that gets no mention on the report


----------



## Amethyst

Cockerpoo lover said:


> The impression I was getting it's the OWNERS that let their cats out that were causing major problems with wildlife
> 
> The moggies were getting off scot free because it's up to us to choose whether we let them out or not


Of course it's your choice and if they are killing wildlife or cr*****g in peoples garden and digging up their plants, then it is the owners fault 

However it is the cats that get stones thrown at them, shot with airguns, catapulted and poisoned ... Not the people who own them.


----------



## RAINYBOW

Amethyst said:


> To be honest, I really don't know how reliable data _could _be collected?
> 
> I don't see cat owners being willing or wanting to tot up the number of birds and type, that their cats are killing
> 
> Perhaps especially if they are birds which may be deemed at risk or vulnerable
> 
> Would there be any other way of doing it, I would imagine any method would need the co operation of cat owners?


Even that wouldn't be accurate because alot of cats eat their kill or dont return it home.

I think it is more likely done based on studies of the surviving birds (they do those bird counting exercises don't they ) Survival rates are more important to establish wether there is a problem rather than how many have been killed.

(obviously thats a scientific viewpoint rather than an emotional one, its not nice when cats kill)

It's like i said earlier with Rats. From what i can gather we do have Rat problems in this country due to the amount of waste we now produce, i wonder what the scale of that would be if you removed cats from the predation equation. They would still have to be controlled, maybe more humanely but nevertheless they would still have to be culled to avoid infestation.

Humans have always shaped the natural environment to suit themselves, right wrong or indifferent i consider allowing cats out to be one of the least of my crimes against the planet


----------



## Sacrechat

RAINYBOW said:


> There is a simple solution to stopping cats from pooing in your garden..... Borrow Oscar  I don't charge much


Apparently, another solution is to get some lion pooh and put it along the edge of your garden and it keeps other cats out. However, it apparently smells so bad, it would keep you out as well.


----------



## Sacrechat

Amethyst said:


> Kinder than a catapult ... I remember hearing years ago about a cat that lost it's eye because a neighbour got sick of it dirtying in their garden
> 
> To be honest I think a lot of the deliberate cruelty and poisonings arise from cats messing in gardens and digging up plants etc
> 
> Just a theory ... no scientific proof to back it up mind you


Yes, sadly, I think you could be right. I suspect that is how next doors cat ended up covered in creosote.


----------



## RAINYBOW

Sacremist said:


> Apparently, another solution is to get some lion pooh and put it along the edge of your garden and it keeps other cats out. However, it apparently smells so bad, it would keep you out as well.


I have heard that, think you can buy it on E Bay  Not sure how effective it is  Bet it stinks !!


----------



## Amethyst

RAINYBOW said:


> Humans have always shaped the natural environment to suit themselves, right wrong or indifferent i consider allowing cats out to be one of the least of my crimes against the planet


I'll be honest and say it wasn't concern for wildlife that was the deciding factor, it was simply based on their welfare.

I still think it, not sure how to put it ... sad, that my cat used to kill so many birds, no doubt parent starlings, sparrows and blackbirds as well as thier babies ... Maybe not endangered birds, but it was still birds lives lost.

Most people thankfully would not go out into the garden and wantonly kill a few birds or more week ... yet don't worry that thier cat will 

I was one of them!

Ultimately the worst part in my mind, is the killing of parent birds, or hearing the distressed parents as their nest is raided ... I could not go back to THAT, there was nothing you could do. Even chasing the cat, mine or another, you KNEW they would be back for the chicks


----------



## Aurelia

I have no idea where to find the right kind of figures you're after for cats owners donating to the RSPB ...

However it does say on the site that they have over 1 million members. To be a member you have to donate montly.

So lets guess (how accurate it is I don't know) that maybe just 1 quarter of those members own a kitty or two. That revenue could be worth more than 120,000 at least, going by the minimum donation of £3 and this is *per month* ... which could be more than 1.4 million a year  That's a big loss!


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

Amethyst said:


> Of course it's your choice and if they are killing wildlife or cr*****g in peoples garden and digging up their plants, then it is the owners fault
> 
> However it is the cats that get stones thrown at them, shot with airguns, catapulted and poisoned ... Not the people who own them.


Yeah the cat I look after does really stinky poos- don't envy the person whose garden he does it in 

Not seen him dig up any plants- but my doggies have done that as puppies.
Not seen him kill anything either.

And as he is a stray and lived outside before I came along there's not a cat in hells chance of keeping him in as an indoor only cat.

He does come in yes but he's too much of an outdoor cat.
So sorry if you have a problem with that- but instead of making comments to someone who has just basically looked after someone else's cat because they just left the poor bugger to defend for himself and sodded off.

Maybe I should have just ignored him then instead of trying to offer some love and comfort to an unwanted black moggy.


----------



## RAINYBOW

Amethyst said:


> I'll be honest and say it wasn't concern for wildlife that was the deciding factor, it was simply based on their welfare.
> 
> I still think it, not sure how to put it ... sad, that my cat used to kill so many birds, no doubt parent starlings, sparrows and blackbirds as well as thier babies ... Maybe not endangered birds, but it was still birds lives lost.
> 
> Most people thankfully would not go out into the garden and wantonly kill a few birds or more week ... yet don't worry that thier cat will
> 
> I was one of them!
> 
> Ultimately the worst part in my mind, is the killing of parent birds, or hearing the distressed parents as their nest is raided ... I could not go back to THAT, there was nothing you could do. Even chasing the cat, mine or another, you KNEW they would be back for the chicks


Like i said that was a "scientific" viewpoint directly addressing the debate on predation decimating bird species 



Aurelia said:


> I have no idea where to find the right kind of figures you're after for cats owners donating to the RSPB ...
> 
> However it does say on the site that they have over 1 million members. To be a member you have to donate montly.
> 
> So lets guess (how accurate it is I don't know) that maybe just 1 quarter of those members own a kitty or two. That revenue could be worth more than 120,000 at least, going by the minimum donation of £3 and this is *per month* ... which could be more than 1.4 million a year  That's a big loss!


Sorry hun but i just don't see this as a legitimate point to debate, its based on too many assumptions and no evidence.

The RSPB is a society dedicated to the protection of birds so to suggest they are somehow "fudging figures" or conducting some sort of mass cover up to protect their own pet cats from a life indoors when it is highly unlikely even if they DID publish that cats were a massive problem anything would be done about it at legislative levels is a bit far fetched for me...sorry


----------



## Amethyst

I hope I won't offend anyone with this and I know most people who let their cats roam believe their cat will never be hit by a car ... 

One teatime I got a call from a lady who said a cat had ran into her kitchen and was now sitting on top of her fridge freezer. She said the cat was a small local cat, but she didn't know who it belonged too. It looked frightened and was cowering face to wall.

I explained I would pick it up, so rang vet made a provisional appointment and finished my tea. A few minutes later and asked if I could go immediately as THE CATS EYE WAS HANGING OUT 

I was used to people exaggerating a bit about injuries but went along. And yes... the cats eye WAS hanging out and it looked as though it had been hanging out for some time 

To cut along story short, cat was whisked to vet, kept in overnight and eye removed next day. He came back to us and we traced his owner... who had actually contacted vet looking for him.

It turned out a neighbour had hit the cat with their car and cat ran off in shock about three days prior. Where the poor creature had been all that time who knows  

Really I guess there is not much point to relaying this other than to ask people to at least consider how they would feel if it happened to their cat ... Maybe the cats that are killed outright are the lucky ones in some instances? This cat was pretty ill when rescued, dehydrated and with a badly infected eye ... or what was left of it. My hubby described it as looking like a the end of a Cumberland sausage all black and dried out 

I am not recounting this to say people who let their cats are bad ... but I just want them to consider the reality of it .... and what the consequences of doing so may be.


----------



## Amethyst

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Yeah the cat I look after does really stinky poos- don't envy the person whose garden he does it in


Ultimately this attitude speaks volumes about you ...


----------



## Sacrechat

RAINYBOW said:


> I have heard that, think you can buy it on E Bay  Not sure how effective it is  Bet it stinks !!


You can buy anything on eBay!


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

Amethyst said:


> Ultimately this attitude speaks volumes about you ...


Oh go on then why don't you enlighten me?

I tell you what it says shall I?

It says this person is a kind caring individual who had the decency to look after a stray. Being a black moggy probably would have ended up unwanted in rescue or PTS.

He is a streetwise cat that cannot be kept in- blame it on his original owner who just let him out in the first place.

It also says this person has a sense of humour.

You obviously don't!

I'm stick to death of you constantly having snidey digs and always sarcastic comments whenever I post anywhere on this forum.

If you have a problem with me and want to take it to PM then do so.


----------



## Guest

Amethyst said:


> I hope I won't offend anyone with this and I know most people who let their cats roam believe their cat will never be hit by a car ...
> 
> One teatime I got a call from a lady who said a cat had ran into her kitchen and was now sitting on top of her fridge freezer. She said the cat was a small local cat, but she didn't know who it belonged too. It looked frightened and was cowering face to wall.
> 
> I explained I would pick it up, so rang vet made a provisional appointment and finished my tea. A few minutes later and asked if I could go immediately as THE CATS EYE WAS HANGING OUT
> 
> I was used to people exaggerating a bit about injuries but went along. And yes... the cats eye WAS hanging out and it looked as though it had been hanging out for some time
> 
> To cut along story short, cat was whisked to vet, kept in overnight and eye removed next day. He came back to us and we traced his owner... who had actually contacted vet looking for him.
> 
> It turned out a neighbour had hit the cat with their car and cat ran off in shock about three days prior. Where the poor creature had been all that time who knows
> 
> Really I guess there is not much point to relaying this other than to ask people to at least consider how they would feel if it happened to their cat ... Maybe the cats that are killed outright are the lucky ones in some instances? This cat was pretty ill when rescued, dehydrated and with a badly infected eye ... or what was left of it. My hubby described it as looking like a the end of a Cumberland sausage all black and dried out
> 
> I am not recounting this to say people who let their cats are bad ... but I just want them to consider the reality of it .... and what the consequences of doing so may be.


I shudder everytime you tell stories like this, you have obviously seen some awful horrible sights in your time and I know that if i had seen the same I would be under the same thinking as yourself.

This thread and all the info that you have given us has made me think and am sure it will also make others think more about it too.

But you have to appreciate that it is hard when you have a cat that is 3-4 years old and is used to a certain way and then to just be locked in a house is not fair on the cat and it is going to be unhappy.

If i ever had another kitten I would NOT let it out and would keep it as an indoor cat. 

Thank you for sharing these stories with us. x


----------



## canuckjill

My cats come in to poo, its a rarity if they don't. In the cold winter months they usually pick to go out into the garage, its cold in there but sheltered and attached to my house. They now have a litter box in there also as its one of their favorite places to be....


----------



## Amethyst

I don't see my sister laughing when the local cat/s are using her lawn as a litter tray and her grandchildren can't play on it 

I used to think cats always buried their doo dahs, but this one doesn't. Just leaves them sitting there in all their smelly glory


----------



## Amethyst

KathrynH said:


> I shudder everytime you tell stories like this, you have obviously seen some awful horrible sights in your time and I know that if i had seen the same I would be under the same thinking as yourself.
> 
> This thread and all the info that you have given us has made me think and am sure it will also make others think more about it too.
> 
> But you have to appreciate that it is hard when you have a cat that is 3-4 years old and is used to a certain way and then to just be locked in a house is not fair on the cat and it is going to be unhappy.
> 
> If i ever had another kitten I would NOT let it out and would keep it as an indoor cat.
> 
> Thank you for sharing these stories with us. x


Thank you, yes I do appreciate it's not easy and people do have their own way of doing things 

I could, but don't worry I won't, say so much more about rescue cats. I gave up the active side of rescue as I was just "burnt out" and just had to say enough is enough ... if not for my sanity ... for my marriage. If I am honest it got to the point where I just did not want to pick up the phone 

Never mind, I just help where I can now ... all the issues and problems are still there ... I just don't have to look them in the face day in day out anymore


----------



## Guest

Amethyst said:


> Thank you, yes I do appreciate it's not easy and people do have their own way of doing things
> 
> I could, but don't worry I won't, say so much more about rescue cats. I gave up the active side of rescue as I was just "burnt out" and just had to say enough is enough ... if not for my sanity ... for my marriage. If I am honest it got to the point where I just did not want to pick up the phone
> 
> Never mind, I just help where I can now ... all the issues and problems are still there ... I just don't have to look them in the face day in day out anymore


Yes i know i could not do it as am too much of an emotional person you know? I would be in floods of tears all the time and would just be a wreck.

Unfortunately people's attitudes are "out of sight out of mind" a lot of the time and it is so sad.


----------



## RAINYBOW

Amethyst said:


> I hope I won't offend anyone with this and I know most people who let their cats roam believe their cat will never be hit by a car ...
> 
> One teatime I got a call from a lady who said a cat had ran into her kitchen and was now sitting on top of her fridge freezer. She said the cat was a small local cat, but she didn't know who it belonged too. It looked frightened and was cowering face to wall.
> 
> I explained I would pick it up, so rang vet made a provisional appointment and finished my tea. A few minutes later and asked if I could go immediately as THE CATS EYE WAS HANGING OUT
> 
> I was used to people exaggerating a bit about injuries but went along. And yes... the cats eye WAS hanging out and it looked as though it had been hanging out for some time
> 
> To cut along story short, cat was whisked to vet, kept in overnight and eye removed next day. He came back to us and we traced his owner... who had actually contacted vet looking for him.
> 
> It turned out a neighbour had hit the cat with their car and cat ran off in shock about three days prior. Where the poor creature had been all that time who knows
> 
> Really I guess there is not much point to relaying this other than to ask people to at least consider how they would feel if it happened to their cat ... Maybe the cats that are killed outright are the lucky ones in some instances? This cat was pretty ill when rescued, dehydrated and with a badly infected eye ... or what was left of it. My hubby described it as looking like a the end of a Cumberland sausage all black and dried out
> 
> I am not recounting this to say people who let their cats are bad ... but I just want them to consider the reality of it .... and what the consequences of doing so may be.


Obviously this is an awful and tragic story and i am not so daft as to think it's even a rare occurence but my Billy was tragically killed by 2 loose dogs as he lay sunning himself on a drive. My only comfort is that the eyewitness accounts tell me it was quick and he didn't suffer, there wasn't a mark on him afterwards.

I would still have let him out all those years if you turned back the clock. I honestly believe if you could "humanise" cats and chew the cud with them he would tell you i did the right thing and that is why i am able to live with that decision.

Kids die on roads, every day. It's tragic and every parents worse nightmare but if you analise every possibility and turn it into a probablility you would never leave the house.

I will "possibly" get run over tomorrow - but i still need to take the kids to school
I will "probably" get run over tomorrow - maybe i will stay home

Life is all about weighing up the possiblys and the probablys 

I do the same every time i let my dog off lead, which is an almost identical debate to this

There are all sorts of things that could possibly go wrong but i weigh those against the benefits to him.

If those possiblys became probablies (as they have done when his recall was pants) then he was kept on lead.


----------



## noushka05

Cockerpoo lover said:


> With reference to your Coleman and Temple and Lawton studies I found this:
> 
> While you're conducting your research, please remember many of the "pro
> bird" studies' data aren't direct data obtained during the actual study -
> because there was no actual study. Many of the pro-bird studies are
> actually other researchers' interpretations of another researcher's
> interpretation of some original obscure study.
> 
> In addition, almost *all* of the astronomical numbers of killed/caught prey
> reported in these pro-bird studies are *only* extrapolations from other very
> small studies. Many of the extrapolations of the average number of prey
> caught/cat/year from smaller studies to larger cat populations often include
> large cities, where many cats are kept indoors and also
> include cats that eirher too old or too young to hunt. So even though the
> total number of cats for a given area may jive with local estimates, the
> number of actual hunters may only be a fraction of the total population.
> This would *drastically* reduce the accuracy of the estimated number of prey
> caught/cat/year.
> 
> *The Churcher and Lawton study* is one of these bogus studies... the
> methodology was seriously flawed. C&L asked owners of 78 cats in the
> village to keep all the dead animals their cats brought home. They divided
> the
> total number of kills by the 78 cats and multiplied the average number of
> kills per cat by the 5 million cats in England at the time.... including
> London and other
> big
> cities where many cats are kept indoors. (They also included very old and
> very young cats who probably didn't even hunt.) From these figures, C&L
> concluded that 5 million cats were responsible for killing about 70 million
> animals every year -- of which about 20 million are birds.... You can
> imagine how many feathers that piece of fiction ruffled....
> 
> *Another incrediblely manipulative and deceptive author to be wary of is
> Stanley A. Temple --* In all his articles he cites references for his
> data.... Almost all of references he cites and quotes to substantiate his
> absurd claims are other articles *he* wrote! In those articles, he cites
> and quotes even more articles that *he* wrote.... IOW, he's his own
> reference! IOW, "If you don't believe and want proof, just ask *me*"!
> 
> In one of his delusions, Temple states rural free-ranging domestic cats in
> Wisconsin may be killing between 8 and 217 million birds each year....Gee,
> does Wisconsin even have 200 million birds...?
> 
> I have skimmed the mammal society's survey so I could be wrong but no-where did I see that when calculating the prey got by the cats how many of the species caught were old and frail or about to die?
> As previously mentioned via RSPB cats do go for the weaker so these were going to die anyway so is it fair to say that a cat caused their demise in numbers in this survey.


have you got the link? its funny that the RSPB use their studies on their own website aint it lol

i dont think the cats owners had to send the corpses of the critters off for analyzing lol...and cats also go for young animals, lots of fledgelings and baby rodents get dumped on our drive by the neighbours 2 cats.....and being an efficient predator they can also kill everything inbetween.



RAINYBOW said:


> Did you miss my link then ? I posted it twice to make sure :tongue_smilie:


yes i did get miss it  but ive been and seeked it out.....and it seems the RSPB tho far more guarded then other conservation organisations still go on to say this.............

Whether cat predation has contributed to house sparrow declines remains unclear. Nevertheless, it is prudent to adopt a precautionary approach to the impact of this non-native predator, and to design and adopt methods
that reduce the numbers of sparrows, and other animals, killed by cats.



RAINYBOW said:


> Like i said that was a "scientific" viewpoint directly addressing the debate on predation decimating bird species
> 
> Sorry hun but i just don't see this as a legitimate point to debate, its based on too many assumptions and no evidence.
> 
> The RSPB is a society dedicated to the protection of birds so to suggest they are somehow "fudging figures" or conducting some sort of mass cover up to protect their own pet cats from a life indoors when it is highly unlikely even if they DID publish that cats were a massive problem anything would be done about it at legislative levels is a bit far fetched for me...sorry


seriously Rainy the RSPB are a very controversial organisation when it comes to conservation... just ask SleepingLion


----------



## Guest

We have been at our address for almost 11 years, we had the two cats at the time, Someone came to our door one evening and asked it we had a black and white cat (billy) The person at the door had just hit billy and was certain he was hurt, he had ran through a hedge, We went and serched our hedge at the bottom, the driver (A man who wa quite upset helping us) but could not find Billy, we continued to search but to no avail, The driver went home after giving us his phone number and EVEN offering to contribute towards vet fees when and if we found Billy, OF course we declined. We continued to search with no luck BUT later that evening we searched the house, We found Billy at around
9pm obviously shaken but with no visable injuries. We took immediately to the vets who said that his tail wasbroken and he was booked in two days later to have it removed! We took him in the morning of the planned op! the vet nipped histail with hisfinger and billed screamed jumped round and bit the vet! seems it was not broken after all! Billy dragged his tail for perhaps 6 month! but full order is resumed now!
Billy still goes out!
BUT seldom venturesnear that road!
BUT I guess the driver who hit him were 
a rarity!


----------



## dougal22

KathrynH said:


> I shudder everytime you tell stories like this, you have obviously seen some awful horrible sights in your time and I know that if i had seen the same I would be under the same thinking as yourself.
> 
> This thread and all the info that you have given us has made me think and am sure it will also make others think more about it too.
> 
> But you have to appreciate that it is hard when you have a cat that is 3-4 years old and is used to a certain way and then to just be locked in a house is not fair on the cat and it is going to be unhappy.
> 
> *If i ever had another kitten I would NOT let it out and would keep it as an indoor cat. *
> 
> Thank you for sharing these stories with us. x


Just that one sentence proves my point earlier in the thread about debate being about education, not something to be viewed as a negative.

Good for you KathrynH for taking on board the benefits of an indoor cat and having a change of heart about any future kittens you may have


----------



## Amethyst

DoubleTrouble said:


> We have been at our address for almost 11 years, we had the two cats at the time, Someone came to our door one evening and asked it we had a black and white cat (billy) The person at the door had just hit billy and was certain he was hurt, he had ran through a hedge, We went and serched our hedge at the bottom, the driver (A man who wa quite upset helping us) but could not find Billy, we continued to search but to no avail, The driver went home after giving us his phone number and EVEN offering to contribute towards vet fees when and if we found Billy, OF course we declined. We continued to search with no luck BUT later that evening we searched the house, We found Billy at around
> 9pm obviously shaken but with no visable injuries. We took immediately to the vets who said that his tail wasbroken and he was booked in two days later to have it removed! We took him in the morning of the planned op! the vet nipped histail with hisfinger and billed screamed jumped round and bit the vet! seems it was not broken after all! Billy dragged his tail for perhaps 6 month! but full order is resumed now!
> Billy still goes out!
> BUT seldom venturesnear that road!
> BUT I guess the driver who hit him were
> a rarity!


Bless him, pleased that he was okay in the end, tail injuries after rta's seem pretty common?

Yes, few drivers stop or so it seems


----------



## RAINYBOW

noushka05 said:


> have you got the link? its funny that the RSPB use their studies on their own website aint it lol
> 
> i dont think the cats owners had to send the corpses of the critters off for analyzing lol...and cats also go for young animals, lots of fledgelings and baby rodents get dumped on our drive by the neighbours 2 cats.....and being an efficient predator they can also kill everything inbetween.
> 
> yes i did get miss it  but ive been and seeked it out.....and it seems the RSPB tho far more guarded then other conservation organisations still go on to say this.............
> 
> Whether cat predation has contributed to house sparrow declines remains unclear. Nevertheless, it is prudent to adopt a precautionary approach to the impact of this non-native predator, and to design and adopt methods
> that reduce the numbers of sparrows, and other animals, killed by cats.
> 
> seriously Rainy the RSPB are a very controversial organisation when it comes to conservation... just ask SleepingLion


:nono: I do aknowledge that point earlier in the thread BUT that is somewhat taken out of context of the depth of information on predation that document provides and is a very small part of their conclusions. It is also in no way suggestive that Cats are a Major Contributor 

That may well be the case but i don't think you can dismiss them as an organisation and authority on British Bird Populations. I really don't buy the conspiracy theory that cat owners are infiltrating the RSPB to skew data so noone makes them keep their cats indoors  Isn't that a Disney plot ?? ((lol)))

((just teasing xxx))


----------



## suzy93074

I have heard many horror stories of cats being run over too and yes its awful - but as I have stated many times on this thread - where I live is no direct main road - where I used to live before here was the same - IF I had lived on or near to a very busy road or just a road then I dont think I would have even got a cat .......I do NOT let my cat ROAM he goes out into the gardens which are huge and communal and all the bushes etc surrounding - imo there is a difference between letting your cat go out and roam endlessly to going out and actively getting them in at periods throughout the day which is what happens with us .........not everyone who lets their cats out do so without looking into the situ first! and assesing the risk factor. I accept that there will be some risk but I minimise as much as possible as im sure many owners do.


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

No Noushka do not have the link anymore.

But sure you are not interested in anything I have to say after agreeing with Amethyst concerning my tongue in cheek poo remark.

After all you all know me by that comment right?

Pardon me for taking on a stray that no-one else would have and a black one at that.

Not my fault he got left to defend himself by his owners and was use to being outside.

I have said all along I see both sides but think that where appropriate the cat should chose and if he wants to go out and is stressed being in he should be allowed to go out.

I don't see why I should be made to feel bad for letting him stay out if he wants -that's where he is the happiest. He does come in too.

I have had indoor cats too as I said.

Maybe I should have turned my back on him like others? and despite others making judgements refrain from some tongue in cheek humour.


----------



## karmidale

Interesting subject but I feel my dogs would not be at all sensible but the cats seem to settle down and sleep in the garden etc. 
I was worried about our Ragdoll going out on his own for fear of being stolen as he is so beautiful but felt it unfair to keep him in.
As for the dogs, they would just be silly and get run over I am certain!
Being acceptable??? I think it all depends on where you live and how safe everyone is - my dogs would run free if I had several acres but unfortunately I don't! I also think they would be a nuisance to others whereas the cats are very private individuals.


----------



## Guest

they should all be kept in stop them sh.tting in peoples gardens


----------



## dougal22

suzy93074 said:


> I have heard many horror stories of cats being run over too and yes its awful - but as I have stated many times on this thread - where I live is no direct main road - where I used to live before here was the same - IF I had lived on or near to a very busy road or just a road then I dont think I would have even got a cat .......I do NOT let my cat ROAM he goes out into the gardens which are huge and communal and all the bushes etc surrounding - imo there is a difference between letting your cat go out and roam endlessly to going out and actively getting them in at periods throughout the day which is what happens with us .........not everyone who lets their cats out do so without looking into the situ first! and assesing the risk factor. I accept that there will be some risk but I minimise as much as possible as im sure many owners do.


Roads are not the only danger. I said earlier in the thread, my in laws cats were killed by foxes - one was decapitated as were the pet ducks


----------



## noushka05

RAINYBOW said:


> :nono: I do aknowledge that point earlier in the thread BUT that is somewhat taken out of context of the depth of information on predation that document provides and is a very small part of their conclusions. It is also in no way suggestive that Cats are a Major Contributor
> 
> That may well be the case but i don't think you can dismiss them as an organisation and authority on British Bird Populations. I really don't buy the conspiracy theory that cat owners are infiltrating the RSPB to skew data so noone makes them keep their cats indoors  Isn't that a Disney plot ?? ((lol)))
> 
> ((just teasing xxx))


well we'll have to agree to disagree on the RSPB survey because their findings didnt seem very conclusive to me, but i personally could never believe that millions of cats arnt doing serious damage to bird populations......and not only birds but the other creatures they prey upon..and the impact this has on our Native predators, the cat should Not be predating on any indiginous wildlife especially not when they face many pressures from other fronts!

i'd rather errr on the side of caution than take chances with our wildlife, the cat has caused the demise of many species across the globe i dont think we should ignore that fact personally.

they keep their fingers in many pies do the RSPB i certainly see them in a different light these days.


----------



## Sammy123

Children would also prefer sitting at home in front of the telly rather than go to school. Do we give them choice? My cat was and will never be asked whether she wants to go out or now. I made that choise for her when I got her. I make a choice when taken to the vet and I make a choice when she eats(probibily for that reason her wight is ideal  ).

Shell we ask a question? A dog outside walked 3 times a day and that is it or an indoor cat sleeping on the bad? I believe this is a rhetorical question.


----------



## Amethyst

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Pardon me for taking on a stray that no-one else would have and a black one at that.


What do you want? A medal, seriously plenty of people have and love black cats, I've had two in my life and my next cats will be black by choice :001_wub:

Don't take things so seriously


----------



## noushka05

Cockerpoo lover said:


> No Noushka do not have the link anymore.
> 
> But sure you are not interested in anything I have to say after agreeing with Amethyst concerning my tongue in cheek poo remark.
> 
> After all you all know me by that comment right?
> 
> Pardon me for taking on a stray that no-one else would have and a black one at that.
> 
> Not my fault he got left to defend himself by his owners and was use to being outside.
> 
> I have said all along I see both sides but think that where appropriate the cat should chose and if he wants to go out and is stressed being in he should be allowed to go out,
> 
> I don't see why I should be made to feel bad for letting him stay out if he wants -that's where he is the happiest. He does come in too.
> 
> I have had indoor cats too as I said.
> 
> Maybe I should have turned my back on him like others? and despite others making judgements refrain from some tongue in cheek humour.


ive just trawled back to find the like you mean, and i never meant to offend you so sorry, my sense of humour sometimes goes out the window when i get carried away with summat.

and well done you for helping a stray in need and not turning your back on her like most would do a while back we helped a little feral we tamed down she died of cancer she was a lovely little cat. Sorry again if i upset you x


----------



## RAINYBOW

noushka05 said:


> well we'll have to agree to disagree on the RSPB survey because their findings didnt seem very conclusive to me, but i personally could never believe that millions of cats arnt doing serious damage to bird populations......and not only birds but the other creatures they prey upon..and the impact this has on our Native predators, the cat should Not be predating on any indiginous wildlife especially not when they face many pressures from other fronts!
> 
> i'd rather errr on the side of caution than take chances with our wildlife, the cat has caused the demise of many species across the globe i dont think we should ignore that fact personally.
> 
> they keep their fingers in many pies do the RSPB i certainly see them in a different light these days.


We will .

If you read back i think i make the point that what that (IMO very balanced and comprehensive) report makes is how complicated predation is and there are many factors so you cant base it simply on "how many birds (for example) cats kill" like i said there were interesting points about how that infact can reduce the struggle for food during the winter months so in some instances MORE birds may survive as a result of predation.


----------



## Cleo38

noushka05 said:


> well we'll have to agree to disagree on the RSPB survey because their findings didnt seem very conclusive to me, but i personally could never believe that millions of cats arnt doing serious damage to bird populations......and not only birds but the other creatures they prey upon..and the impact this has on our Native predators, the cat should Not be predating on any indiginous wildlife especially not when they face many pressures from other fronts!
> 
> i'd rather errr on the side of caution than take chances with our wildlife, the cat has caused the demise of many species across the globe i dont think we should ignore that fact personally.
> 
> they keep their fingers in many pies do the RSPB i certainly see them in a different light these days.


But the link to the Mammal Societ you posted (much!) eearlier also did not really come to any conclusions regarding IF cats actually had an IMPACT on wildlife overall. I highlighted sections of this earlier.

Whilst I agree that in certain parts of the world with a fragile eco system that has occurred there is still no evidence to support these claims in the UK.

I'm not disputing that cats kill animals but as I said earlier all the statistics did not take in to account iof the cats in the study ACTUALLY killed the animals, found the animals dead already or whether the animal was ill or injured (& may have died anyway).

As for cats being killed on the road mentioned by Amethyst, I have seen cats dead on the road, I have also had the misfortune to see several car drivers dead in accidents & a motorcyclist dead on the road yet I still drive a car & my OH rides a motorbike. Personally I hate him riding it but his bike is his passion (more than me at times!) & I would never stop him riding it.

If I let my cats out it's not because I am irresponsible or don't care enough about them; it's because I think it's best for them. Same as if I decide that indoor life was more suitable for them


----------



## RAINYBOW

This is a great debate and i have really learnt stuff (which is why i love a good debate ) but i had some crappy news today so am going to spend the rest of this evening having a snuggle with Mr Rainy (wether he likes it or not)

 Night Peeps xx


----------



## Guest

RAINYBOW said:


> This is a great debate and i have really learnt stuff (which is why i love a good debate ) but i had some crappy news today so am going to spend the rest of this evening having a snuggle with Mr Rainy (wether he likes it or not)
> 
> Night Peeps xx


Sorry to hear that rainy, am here if you need someone to talk too. x


----------



## Amethyst

Cleo38 said:


> As for cats being killed on the road mentioned by Amethyst, I have seen cats dead on the road, I have also had the misfortune to see several car drivers dead in accidents & a motorcyclist dead on the road yet I still drive a car & my OH rides a motorbike. Personally I hate him riding it but his bike is his passion (more than me at times!) & I would never stop him riding it.


I think the difference is, that cat's don't understand the risks they are being exposed to when the owner opens the door, let's them out and closes it behind them?

If they did would neutered cats actually go roaming ... now however much owners insist they would ... I guess we'll never know


----------



## Amethyst

RAINYBOW said:


> This is a great debate and i have really learnt stuff (which is why i love a good debate ) but i had some crappy news today so am going to spend the rest of this evening having a snuggle with Mr Rainy (wether he likes it or not)
> 
> Night Peeps xx


Good night and take care x


----------



## Cleo38

Amethyst said:


> I think the difference is, that cat's don't understand the risks they are being exposed to when the owner opens the door, let's them out and closes it behind them?
> 
> If they did would neutered cats actually go roaming ... now however much owners insist they would ... I guess we'll never know


But neither do my dogs when they b*gger off chasing pheasant across a field. I have to truct that they will come back to me as I do the cats (well one of them, the other seems to prefer indoors & just sits on the step)


----------



## Amethyst

Cleo38 said:


> But neither do my dogs when they b*gger off chasing pheasant across a field. I have to truct that they will come back to me as I do the cats (well one of them, the other seems to prefer indoors & just sits on the step)


Things is you can work on a dog's recall 

Now cats :hand:

I remember my mum used to stay up until the wee hours waiting for our family cat ... she used to swear he was in next doors unkept garden ... no doubt killing anything he could catch


----------



## noushka05

RAINYBOW said:


> We will .
> 
> If you read back i think i make the point that what that (IMO very balanced and comprehensive) report makes is how complicated predation is and there are many factors so you cant base it simply on "how many birds (for example) cats kill" like i said there were interesting points about how that infact can reduce the struggle for food during the winter months so in some instances MORE birds may survive as a result of predation.


many garden birds species are declining i dont think they need the cat to get their numbers any lower...omg no wonder the RSPB is controversial...and what then about the mammals they prey on some species are becoming increasingly rare? and the impact on predators who have to compete with cats? at the end of the day many of the studies date back 50years, the cat population is growing all the time im gobsmacked that some think this has no impact.....but more intensive studies certainly need to be done, i just hope we dont live to regret being so complacent.



Cleo38 said:


> But the link to the Mammal Societ you posted (much!) eearlier also did not really come to any conclusions regarding IF cats actually had an IMPACT on wildlife overall. I highlighted sections of this earlier.
> 
> Whilst I agree that in certain parts of the world with a fragile eco system that has occurred there is still no evidence to support these claims in the UK.
> 
> I'm not disputing that cats kill animals but as I said earlier all the statistics did not take in to account iof the cats in the study ACTUALLY killed the animals, found the animals dead already or whether the animal was ill or injured (& may have died anyway).


yes of course they have more impact on more fragile ecosystems but even in these places the pet owners usually win over wildlfe and cats are still allowed to roam:nono:

from what ive seen of cats they seem pretty efficient ambush predators to me, so i think they kill a fair few healthy crittesr...and young ones aswell.



RAINYBOW said:


> This is a great debate and i have really learnt stuff (which is why i love a good debate ) but i had some crappy news today so am going to spend the rest of this evening having a snuggle with Mr Rainy (wether he likes it or not)
> 
> Night Peeps xx


sorry about your news hope its not so bad....night night xxx


----------



## Cleo38

Amethyst said:


> Things is you can work on a dog's recall
> 
> Now cats :hand:
> 
> I remember my mum used to stay up until the wee hours waiting for our family cat ... she used to swear he was in next doors unkept garden ... no doubt killing anything he could catch


LOL, that what I keep telling myself when they took off AGAIN tonight! :cryin:

Bloody pheasants are everywhere at the moment 

Winnie only usually goes in the garden ... if I can't see her I shake her crunchies box & she soon comes running


----------



## Guest

RAINYBOW said:


> This is a great debate and i have really learnt stuff (which is why i love a good debate ) but i had some crappy news today so am going to spend the rest of this evening having a snuggle with Mr Rainy (wether he likes it or not)
> 
> Night Peeps xx


Sorry Rainybow, the loss of a friend at any age is hard to bear! but one so young has to be extra hard!
Enjoy the snuggle special friend!
DT
xxxx


----------



## Sacrechat

Amethyst said:


> I don't see my sister laughing when the local cat/s are using her lawn as a litter tray and her grandchildren can't play on it
> 
> I used to think cats always buried their doo dahs, but this one doesn't. Just leaves them sitting there in all their smelly glory


I read somewhere once that they do this to mark territory.


----------



## Amethyst

Sacremist said:


> I read somewhere once that they do this to mark territory.


Yes I beleive so, one sprayed against my front do not so long ago, it STUNK! I could smell it in the lobby with door closed for days  
As I have said it then pooped there!

Thank you kitty


----------



## Sacrechat

Amethyst said:


> plenty of people have and love black cats, I've had two in my life and my next cats will be black by choice :001_wub:


Yup! I have a black moggie boy too. :001_smile:


----------



## Guest

Sacremist said:


> Yup! I have a black moggie boy too. :001_smile:


that is a real handsome boy!
And your cat run looks pretty impressive too Pitcutes of the whole run would be welcome


----------



## Amethyst

Sacremist said:


> Yup! I have a black moggie boy too. :001_smile:


Now that is my kind of cat, beautiful :001_wub:

Oooooooooh I'm getting kitty broody


----------



## Sacrechat

Amethyst said:


> Things is you can work on a dog's recall
> 
> Now cats :hand:
> 
> I remember my mum used to stay up until the wee hours waiting for our family cat ... she used to swear he was in next doors unkept garden ... no doubt killing anything he could catch


Years ago when I did let my cats roam, I had two black and white moggies called Bonnie and Muffin. I used to bring them back inside at 3pm every day just before the kids got out of school. I did this due to the increased traffic on the roads and plus I don't trust some teenagers around animals. To get them in, I used to shake their dry food barrel. They came running back in just like a dog would if I called to them. I had them very well trained.:001_smile:


----------



## Sacrechat

DoubleTrouble said:


> that is a real handsome boy!
> And your cat run looks pretty impressive too Pitcutes of the whole run would be welcome


Thank you, I think he's gorgeous, but then I'm biased. The run is split into sections, so I would have to take pictures of different parts to show it. The reason for the sections are to do with manoeuvering the cats around depending on whether or not work is being carried out. When the BG man comes to service the boiler for instance, he needs to open the door to the garage and this leads into the run, so to keep the cats in we have another section where they can go with a door separating the two parts. This way the engineer can do what he has to and the cats are safe in another section of the run.

We also had a section for the rabbit. The rabbit died last year though, so now the cats use it.


----------



## Sacrechat

Amethyst said:


> Now that is my kind of cat, beautiful :001_wub:
> 
> Oooooooooh I'm getting kitty broody


Thank you!


----------



## Guest

Sacremist said:


> Years ago when I did let my cats roam, I had two black and white moggies called Bonnie and Muffin. I used to bring them back inside at 3pm every day just before the kids got out of school. I did this due to the increased traffic on the roads and plus I don't trust some teenagers around animals. To get them in, I used to shake their dry food barrel. They came running back in just like a dog would if I called to them. I had them very well trained.:001_smile:


Our Billy reponds to O/H's whistle! (who whistles properly) I can ONLY whistle the dogs, which I do so with fingers in mouth and he (billy) does not respond to me! BUT if I whistle the dogs - they come and you can bet your bottom dollar he will only be a few steps behind them


----------



## noushka05

Sacremist said:


> Yup! I have a black moggie boy too. :001_smile:


Wow hes very impressive


----------



## Sacrechat

DoubleTrouble said:


> Our Billy reponds to O/H's whistle! (who whistles properly) I can ONLY whistle the dogs, which I do so with fingers in mouth and he (billy) does not respond to me! BUT if I whistle the dogs - they come and you can bet your bottom dollar he will only be a few steps behind them


My cats think the dogs a pain in the backside so they never follow her. They prefer to treat her with contempt. Only one, Louis, likes to rub his head on her face.


----------



## Sacrechat

noushka05 said:


> Wow hes very impressive


Thank you. God forbid I ever lose him, but I would want another black moggie if I did. I love black cats.


----------



## Guest

Sacremist said:


> Yup! I have a black moggie boy too. :001_smile:


Gorgeous boy you have. 

I had a black cat called sooty, i absolutely adored her, she was my baby, when my mum died when i was 16 and my sister kicked me out on the streets i was homeless and so was sooty i was left absolutely heartbroken but thankfully a friend's mum managed to take her in and give her a home and she lived to a wonderful age of 19!!

I love black cats they are in a league of there own.


----------



## Sacrechat

KathrynH said:


> Gorgeous boy you have.
> 
> I had a black cat called sooty, i absolutely adored her, she was my baby, when my mum died when i was 16 and my sister kicked me out on the streets i was homeless and so was sooty i was left absolutely heartbroken but thankfully a friend's mum managed to take her in and give her a home and she lived to a wonderful age of 19!!
> 
> I love black cats they are in a league of there own.


Yes, they are. I don't understand why more people don't want them.


----------



## Guest

Sacremist said:


> Yes, they are. I don't understand why more people don't want them.


Me neither! WHEN did this come about? because as far as I was always aware a black cat were said to be a good luck symbel! Could not believe it when I heard that they were the hardest to rehome as no one wanted them!


----------



## Kitty_pig

I heard of it starting last year, but and one website I went on suggested it was because black cats are linked to witches....so I started looking for one, *cackles and makes potion around her cauldron*, I ended up with white and black though hahahaha x


----------



## Guest

Kitty_pig said:


> I heard of it starting last year, but and one website I went on suggested it was because black cats are linked to witches....so I started looking for one, *cackles and makes potion around her cauldron*, I ended up with white and black though hahahaha x


Well mine is Black & White too! And I bet my cauldron is bigger then yours


----------



## Kitty_pig

DoubleTrouble said:


> Well mine is Black & White too! And I bet my cauldron is bigger then yours


lmao yes it probably is but I'm limited while living with the parents, wait until I move out mwahahahahahahahaha *cough*


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

Amethyst said:


> What do you want? A medal, seriously plenty of people have and love black cats, I've had two in my life and my next cats will be black by choice :001_wub:
> 
> Don't take things so seriously


No I don't want a medal.

All my cats have been either black or black & white and all strays.

My current one was mentioned as he is the outdoor one and the other two were indoor.

He was also mentioned as you was so rude to put in to very large font a reply to me about shooting etc.. and you were clearly not aware of my circumstances.

You have not done that to anyone else so why me?

I'm sick to death of you and your sarcasm, which is all over this forum. I know I'm not the only one who has had it from you, but you are so tiresome now.

I would PM you but you have set your profile to private and I don't want to keep putting things over publicly.

And as for your comment about taking things seriously- I don't always hence my tongue in cheek comments which you then love to have a dig at.

So make your mind up!!


----------



## Guest

Cockerpoo lover said:


> No I don't want a medal.
> 
> All my cats have been either black or black & white and all strays.
> 
> My current one was mentioned as he is the outdoor one and the other two were indoor.
> 
> He was also mentioned as you was so rude to put in to very large font a reply to me about shooting etc.. and you were clearly not aware of my circumstances.
> 
> You have not done that to anyone else so why me?
> 
> I'm sick to death of you and your sarcasm, which is all over this forum. I know I'm not the only one who has had it from you, but you are so tiresome now.
> 
> I would PM you but you have set your profile to private and I don't want to keep putting things over publicly.
> 
> And as for your comment about taking things seriously- I don't always hence my tongue in cheek comments which you then love to have a dig at.
> 
> So make your mind up!!


Hey come on!
PLay the game!
This thread is nicely back on track and Amethyst's comment weren't that bad!


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

DoubleTrouble said:


> Hey come on!
> PLay the game!
> This thread is nicely back on track and Amethyst's comment weren't that bad!


They may not be to you DT but when it's a constant over lots of threads it does get tiresome.

I'm not coming back on cat section anymore- can't be doing with it all.
However I noticed another comment and if I could PM her I would.

So don't worry you won't have to put up with me on this part anymore.


----------



## classixuk

Amethyst said:


> I think the difference is, that cat's don't understand the risks they are being exposed to when the owner opens the door, let's them out and closes it behind them?
> 
> If they did would neutered cats actually go roaming ... now however much owners insist they would ... I guess we'll never know


Interesting point. Although I've always said that my cat is an outdoor cat, he's always had the freedom to go where he likes as I leave the back door open all of the time...even when I'm out, so he can get back in.

So maybe my cat isn't an outdoor cat in the strict sense of the word? Maybe he just thinks we have a VERY big house? LOL

I'm lucky I can do that, I suppose, as I live in a good area. Plus we have the dog too...and Bouviers are natural guardians...if someone did get into the garden, they wouldn't want to stay long. I've seen Paddy go off on one and I had to use all my strength to hold him back...my poor cousin was terrified! 

Maybe that's why the cat feels so confident? He's always had a "protector". Before I got the dog, we had a cat (Sox) that would beat up other cats and dogs. Between the 2 humans and the bully animals, Tigger must feel like a mobster's mol.


----------



## Amethyst

Sacremist said:


> Thank you. God forbid I ever lose him, but I would want another black moggie if I did. I love black cats.


I'm hoping for a pair, or that was the plan ...but now thinking maybe one so they can travel with us


----------



## RAINYBOW

My first cat was a black mogster  So i too am "Biggin Up the Black Cat Posse"  She was beautiful and delicate and ever so slightly unhinged in a fabulous way, compared to my 2 tabby "bruisers" actually she was far more of an "indoor" puss than Fizzy and Billy (who were almost identical Tabbies bizarelly) I love my Tabbies though but my 2 were absolute sweethearts (which is why everyone kept trying to insit Billy wanted to live with them )

All mine came on a shake of the crunchy box unless Billy was in one of his other "residents"


----------



## Cleo38

Going back to comments earlier regarding cats not understanding the risks when out doors I would also argue that children also do not fully understand what risks there are - this comes with experieince in life.

You can advise & guide your children but they really do not fully understand risks they may take. I know I didn't when I was younger - looking back I can't belive some of the things we used to get up to but I would't change things.

I used to live in a small market town for a few months (right in the middle) & I still let one of my cats out. Irresponsible? Maybe, but he would not have coped with being an indoor cat. He used to visit everyone in all the neighbourhoods I lived & was fed by alot of them hence his rather round shape. When I lived in the town he used to visit shops & many times I would pass shop windows & see him sleeping with their displays. He visited the local pub & used to get fed from the best restaurant (steak, venison... much better than he got at home!)

He was such a friendly cat & I'm glad that I ignored my initial concerns & let him go where he wanted to as he had a good life & enjoyed all his adventures. Typing about him makes me realise just how much I miss him


----------



## Raventhorn

I hate the fact that people keep cats inside. I don't think people should have cats if they are near a busy road. The country is ideal, but i have a large allotment at the back of my house that she can run off in. You can't keep a cat inside - it's just too unnatural. Lots of people in the country do let their dogs roam. If i lived there, i wouldn't let my dog roam though - she's too stupid to come back! she'd be off after the nearest dog and follow him to his house.


----------



## Guest

Raventhorn said:


> I hate the fact that people keep cats inside. I don't think people should have cats if they are near a busy road. The country is ideal, but i have a large allotment at the back of my house that she can run off in. You can't keep a cat inside - it's just too unnatural. Lots of people in the country do let their dogs roam. If i lived there, i wouldn't let my dog roam though - she's too stupid to come back! she'd be off after the nearest dog and follow him to his house.


so you'd let your cat roam (well I let mine out)) but you are, are you not against all neutering! is that right?


----------



## koekemakranka

Amethyst said:


> I think the difference is, that cat's don't understand the risks they are being exposed to when the owner opens the door, let's them out and closes it behind them?
> 
> If they did would neutered cats actually go roaming ... now however much owners insist they would ... I guess we'll never know


My neutered male would definitely go roaming. Maybe not for days on end, but he would leave the proerty and wander next door, down the road and across the road. I know, I caught him next to the street on numerous occasions (prior to the catproofing)


----------



## gskinner123

Raventhorn said:


> I hate the fact that people keep cats inside. I don't think people should have cats if they are near a busy road. The country is ideal, but i have a large allotment at the back of my house that she can run off in. You can't keep a cat inside - it's just too unnatural. Lots of people in the country do let their dogs roam. If i lived there, i wouldn't let my dog roam though - she's too stupid to come back! she'd be off after the nearest dog and follow him to his house.


Not really, unfortunately  In my previous home, which was very rural, you'd still occasionally see cats that had been killed by traffic... idiot drivers at ridiculous speeds on country lanes and cats that have a false sense of security on 'quiet' roads.

We still live rurally now and nobdoy lets their dog roam around here for fear of them (amongst other things) bothering livestock and being shot by farmers. So can't really agree with you on either score.


----------



## koekemakranka

Raventhorn said:


> I hate the fact that people keep cats inside. I don't think people should have cats if they are near a busy road. The country is ideal, but i have a large allotment at the back of my house that she can run off in. You can't keep a cat inside - it's just too unnatural. Lots of people in the country do let their dogs roam. If i lived there, i wouldn't let my dog roam though - she's too stupid to come back! she'd be off after the nearest dog and follow him to his house.


Ridiculous, all of it. If you live near a busy road then you can't have a cat? What is "unnatural"? There is very little natural about the modern domestic cat, they have been living with humans for thousands of years. And then you are against neutering? That is plain stupid and irresponsible. I think you are just a lazy and irresponsible cat owner trying to justify yourself.


----------



## Amethyst

gskinner123 said:


> Not really, unfortunately  In my previous home, which was very rural, you'd still occasionally see cats that had been killed by traffic... idiot drivers at ridiculous speeds on country lanes and cats that have a false sense of security on 'quiet' roads.


I agree and I do think some owners have a false sense of security because they live in a rural area ir "nice/good" area.

I do think some areas are indeed safer for cats than others, that's just common sense  But I doubt very much if I could bring myself to let my cats wander now ... I guess those days are gone for good?


----------



## noushka05

Cockerpoo lover said:


> With reference to your Coleman and Temple and Lawton studies I found this:
> 
> While you're conducting your research, please remember many of the "pro
> bird" studies' data aren't direct data obtained during the actual study -
> because there was no actual study. Many of the pro-bird studies are
> actually other researchers' interpretations of another researcher's
> interpretation of some original obscure study.
> 
> In addition, almost *all* of the astronomical numbers of killed/caught prey
> reported in these pro-bird studies are *only* extrapolations from other very
> small studies. Many of the extrapolations of the average number of prey
> caught/cat/year from smaller studies to larger cat populations often include
> large cities, where many cats are kept indoors and also
> include cats that eirher too old or too young to hunt. So even though the
> total number of cats for a given area may jive with local estimates, the
> number of actual hunters may only be a fraction of the total population.
> This would *drastically* reduce the accuracy of the estimated number of prey
> caught/cat/year.
> 
> *The Churcher and Lawton study* is one of these bogus studies... the
> methodology was seriously flawed. C&L asked owners of 78 cats in the
> village to keep all the dead animals their cats brought home. They divided
> the
> total number of kills by the 78 cats and multiplied the average number of
> kills per cat by the 5 million cats in England at the time.... including
> London and other
> big
> cities where many cats are kept indoors. (They also included very old and
> very young cats who probably didn't even hunt.) From these figures, C&L
> concluded that 5 million cats were responsible for killing about 70 million
> animals every year -- of which about 20 million are birds.... You can
> imagine how many feathers that piece of fiction ruffled....
> 
> *Another incrediblely manipulative and deceptive author to be wary of is
> Stanley A. Temple --* In all his articles he cites references for his
> data.... Almost all of references he cites and quotes to substantiate his
> absurd claims are other articles *he* wrote! In those articles, he cites
> and quotes even more articles that *he* wrote.... IOW, he's his own
> reference! IOW, "If you don't believe and want proof, just ask *me*"!
> 
> In one of his delusions, Temple states rural free-ranging domestic cats in
> Wisconsin may be killing between 8 and 217 million birds each year....Gee,
> does Wisconsin even have 200 million birds...?
> 
> I have skimmed the mammal society's survey so I could be wrong but no-where did I see that when calculating the prey got by the cats how many of the species caught were old and frail or about to die?
> As previously mentioned via RSPB cats do go for the weaker so these were going to die anyway so is it fair to say that a cat caused their demise in numbers in this survey.


ive found this myself:tongue_smilie:... its been copied from a cat forum


----------



## Guest

Noush! there weren't no linky on the bunny thread


----------



## koekemakranka

PS Sacremist. I love your glossy boy. He looks strong and sturdy. Love the green eyes. 
I also can't understand why black cats are so difficult to rehome.  I also find that the tuxedo cats are also the last ones to find a home. Most of the ferals I feed are tuxedos as well. They are so beautiful.


----------



## Guest

koekemakranka said:


> PS Sacremist. I love your glossy boy. He looks strong and sturdy. Love the green eyes.
> I also can't understand why black cats are so difficult to rehome.  I also find that the tuxedo cats are also the last ones to find a home. Most of the ferals I feed are tuxedos as well. They are so beautiful.


whats a tuxedo? I take it its a black and white one like my billy


----------



## momentofmadness

koekemakranka said:


> PS Sacremist. I love your glossy boy. He looks strong and sturdy. Love the green eyes.
> I also can't understand why black cats are so difficult to rehome.  I also find that the tuxedo cats are also the last ones to find a home. Most of the ferals I feed are tuxedos as well. They are so beautiful.


D you think its cause they haven't got unique obvious pattens and colours.. Just plain black. Apparently Black dogs aren't so easy to home either..

Personally my fave is a ginger or a tortie..  Ive had 2 black cats in my life.. One was from rescue and my sis swapped a sherbit dip for a black kittie when she was about 10..


----------



## gskinner123

Amethyst said:


> I agree and I do think some owners have a false sense of security because they live in a rural area ir "nice/good" area.
> 
> I do think some areas are indeed safer for cats than others, that's just common sense  But I doubt very much if I could bring myself to let my cats wander now ... I guess those days are gone for good?


They're gone for me. I guess some people - and I think someone has already said as much here - that believe in quality of life over quantity and will always want an outdoor-going cat even when they've lost a previous cat on the road or even something they suspect might be as a result of something malicious. I do honestly think, though, that for the majority (and that includes me) when it's happened once you want to prevent it happening again.

When I lived in a London suburb many, many years ago my cats went out and we lost one on the road. A neighbours cat was killed by poisoning whether accidently or deliberate, another of mine was almost killed by a fox. That was enough for me


----------



## Amethyst

gskinner123 said:


> They're gone for me. I guess some people - and I think someone has already said as much here - that believe in quality of life over quantity and will always want an outdoor-going cat even when they've lost a previous cat on the road or even something they suspect might be as a result of something malicious. I do honestly think, though, that for the majority (and that includes me) when it's happened once you want to prevent it happening again.
> 
> When I lived in a London suburb many, many years ago my cats went out and we lost one on the road. A neighbours cat was killed by poisoning whether accidently or deliberate, another of mine was almost killed by a fox. That was enough for me


I was lucky that I never had one of my own cats killed, though one went missing for a week and that was possibly the worst week of my life 

Seeing what happened to other peoples poor cats and the strays was enough for me ... I didn't want the mangled body by the side of the road to EVER be my cat ... if I could prevent it


----------



## koekemakranka

DoubleTrouble said:


> whats a tuxedo? I take it its a black and white one like my billy


Yes:001_wub: Black with white chests/paws/chins. Look like little maitre d's


----------



## RAINYBOW

Amethyst said:


> I agree and I do think some owners have a false sense of security because they live in a rural area ir "nice/good" area.
> 
> I do think some areas are indeed safer for cats than others, that's just common sense  But I doubt very much if I could bring myself to let my cats wander now ... I guess those days are gone for good?


I don't really think i have a false sense of security because i live in a good area, like i have said it's all about your own personal attitude to risk, possiblies and probablys, pros and cons.

Bad things can happen to anyone or anything when they leave their house, or i could get electrocuted staying in my house. You have to weigh up the liklihood and base your decision on that, then live with it. 

I see some parents now who are massively adverse to putting their kids at any sort of perceived "risk" and IMO that is irreponsible parenting because those children won't be fully equipped adults.


----------



## Cleo38

RAINYBOW said:


> I don't really think i have a false sense of security because i live in a good area, like i have said it's all about your own personal attitude to risk, possiblies and probablys, pros and cons.
> 
> Bad things can happen to anyone or anything when they leave their house, or i could get electrocuted staying in my house. You have to weigh up the liklihood and base your decision on that, then live with it.
> 
> I see some parents now who are massively adverse to putting their kids at any sort of perceived "risk" and IMO that is irreponsible parenting because those children won't be fully equipped adults.


My sister is taking a massive risk this year letting my niece go to her first music festival. She's a sensible girl & all her friends are also going but we remember what we were like as teenagers & all warnings from parents went in & one ear & out the other!

But as a teenager who will be at university in a year or so she needs to have more freedom & mys sister believes that this experience will be benficial to her .... although my sister will probably be worrying about her the whole weekend!

As Rainybow's post, it's all about assessing risks & making a judgement. Without knowing all factors then I don't think anyone can criticise decisons regarding cats being indoor or outdoor, you can only assume that you are doing the best for your pet.


----------



## classixuk

Raventhorn said:


> I hate the fact that people keep cats inside. I don't think people should have cats if they are near a busy road. The country is ideal, but i have a large allotment at the back of my house that she can run off in. You can't keep a cat inside - it's just too unnatural. Lots of people in the country do let their dogs roam. If i lived there, i wouldn't let my dog roam though - she's too stupid to come back! she'd be off after the nearest dog and follow him to his house.


Ouch.

Not the post.

But the fact you're the first poster I've ever seen with a publicly displayed red blob next to their username.



It is true about some people in the countryside letting their dogs roam free, but it's usually the job of the dog as it's a working dog.

As an example, my accountant rents office space in a converted barn about 10 minutes drive from me. It's out in the countryside and the farm that owned the barn still operates. Whenever I go out there I usually take the dog, and we're always greeted by the excited farm collie who seems to be able to smell us from a mile away. She just comes darting over or mysteriously appears from in-between the buildings. She must have the best life ever!


----------



## Chez87

classixuk said:


> Ouch.
> 
> Not the post.
> 
> But the fact you're the first poster I've ever seen with a publicly displayed red blob next to their username.


I helped with that red blob.  Due to the fact they were telling the lot of us we were "sick and disgusting" for neutering our pets. Oh and telling someone that the reason their cat's behaviour had changed recently (in a negative way) was because they neutered them. :


----------



## NicoleW

I let my cat out, all my kittens - eventhough they can barely walk at the moment.

I also let both dogs out in the morning and let them back in in the evening when they come back, never really thoughyt about putting collars or tags on them because they always come back.
What's so wrong in that? :S

Duke's been almost hit by a car, but he didn't die so I'm guessing he's learnt not to run towards the night shiny lights.


----------



## Chez87

NicoleW said:


> I let my cat out, all my kittens - eventhough they can barely walk at the moment.


Sorry, did you mean you let your kittens outside? :blink:


----------



## NicoleW

Yes I did mean the kittens.

My post was meant to be sarcastic though!


----------



## Chez87

NicoleW said:


> Yes I did mean the kittens.
> 
> My post was meant to be sarcastic though!


Hahaha sorry!  I did have to ask, you never know on this forum   I didn't even finish reading the post properly!


----------



## classixuk

Amethyst said:


> I was lucky that I never had one of my own cats killed, though one went missing for a week and that was possibly the worst week of my life
> 
> Seeing what happened to other peoples poor cats and the strays was enough for me ... I didn't want the mangled body by the side of the road to EVER be my cat ... if I could prevent it


If you've never lost one of your cats to the road Amethyst, maybe this will make you sway even more towards the "indoor cats only" way of thinking.

Even if your cat is microchipped, the council and police have no legal duty to scan the cat for ID = you won't necessarily be told or informed about what has happened to your cat.

If you believe your cat might have gone missing or been killed, you can call the local vets in the area to ask if anyone has reported finding your cat, you can call the RSPCA or local rescue to see if they have heard anything, you can put up posters if you like.

But what usually gets you a result, as sad as it is, is calling the local council and speaking to the waste refuse department who keep a list of any dead cats they pick up (colour of cat, date and location) before they throw it in the crusher with the rest of the rubbish.

That's how I found Sox.

To be sure it was him, I went to the address that the council gave as being where he was picked up from, and I knocked at the door. The guy who answered welcomed me in, and explained that, as a cat owner himself, he understood there would be an owner looking for the cat who had died outside of his house. He had called the vets to see if they would scan the cat if he brought it's body in, but all 3 local vets refused as "if the cat wasn't chipped, who would they get payment off for scanning it?". 

In the end, the guy took a close-up photo of my Sox's face on his phone before calling the council. I can only assume he did the face as the body was 'too bad', which was really considerate of him.

But there you have it. Micro-chipped or not, an outdoor cat can't easily be traced if it goes missing or dies.


----------



## Kitty_pig

*thick alert* what does the red dot mean?


----------



## classixuk

Chez87 said:


> I helped with that red blob.  Due to the fact they were telling the lot of us we were "sick and disgusting" for neutering our pets. Oh and telling someone that the reason their cat's behaviour had changed recently (in a negative way) was because they neutered them. :


Oooohh...I missed those posts. Might need to go have a lookie! 

I'm spending most of my time here in this thread to be honest as it's so damn nice!


----------



## Chez87

classixuk said:


> Oooohh...I missed those posts. Might need to go have a lookie!
> 
> I'm spending most of my time here in this thread to be honest as it's so damn nice!


Think they may have been deleted, I know a few of their posts have definitely gone.


----------



## Cleo38

classixuk said:


> If you've never lost one of your cats to the road Amethyst, maybe this will make you sway even more towards the "indoor cats only" way of thinking.
> 
> Even if your cat is microchipped, the council and police have no legal duty to scan the cat for ID = you won't necessarily be told or informed about what has happened to your cat.
> 
> If you believe your cat might have gone missing or been killed, you can call the local vets in the area to ask if anyone has reported finding your cat, you can call the RSPCA or local rescue to see if they have heard anything, you can put up posters if you like.
> 
> But what usually gets you a result, as sad as it is, is calling the local council and speaking to the waste refuse department who keep a list of any dead cats they pick up (colour of cat, date and location) before they throw it in the crusher with the rest of the rubbish.
> 
> That's how I found Sox.
> 
> To be sure it was him, I went to the address that the council gave as being where he was picked up from, and I knocked at the door. The guy who answered welcomed me in, and explained that, as a cat owner himself, he understood there would be an owner looking for the cat who had died outside of his house. He had called the vets to see if they would scan the cat if he brought it's body in, but all 3 local vets refused as "if the cat wasn't chipped, who would they get payment off for scanning it?".
> 
> In the end, the guy took a close-up photo of my Sox's face on his phone before calling the council. I can only assume he did the face as the body was 'too bad', which was really considerate of him.
> 
> But there you have it. Micro-chipped or not, an outdoor cat can't easily be traced if it goes missing or dies.


Where I used to live the council dept who dealt with dead animals used to have a scanner. That's how my friend found out her poor cat had been knocked over.

The man who contacted her was lovely & they had wrapped up her cat for her & bought him round as she was too upset to go the depot.


----------



## bird

Right guys, stop the slings and arrows, behave, no more personal stuff or this thread goes into the sin bin.


----------



## RAINYBOW

classixuk said:


> Ouch.
> 
> Not the post.
> 
> But the fact you're the first poster I've ever seen with a publicly displayed red blob next to their username.
> 
> 
> 
> It is true about some people in the countryside letting their dogs roam free, but it's usually the job of the dog as it's a working dog.
> 
> As an example, my accountant rents office space in a converted barn about 10 minutes drive from me. It's out in the countryside and the farm that owned the barn still operates. Whenever I go out there I usually take the dog, and we're always greeted by the excited farm collie who seems to be able to smell us from a mile away. She just comes darting over or mysteriously appears from in-between the buildings. She must have the best life ever!


My dad works in an old aircraft hanger on farmland, there are several work units. The guy there has cockers and they have free roam of the "estate". They are very well trained have superb recall and have been doing it since they were little. He makes that decision based on his dogs and where they are.

Where we have the chalet there is a stunning Goldie in the one opposite, she is a beaut and is always off lead outside the chalet. They used to have 2 so she just followed the older one round when she was a pup but the couple did say she used to disappear onto the other chalet sites when she was little  she just wanders about being lovely with everyone now. I don't let Oscar off lead (unless he is playing with the Goldie and i am supervising) at the chalet because he is daft as a brush and there are too many exciting things for him to take off after and IMO the roads too close to risk it with him. Exact same environment just different attitude to The Percieved "Risk"


----------



## RAINYBOW

bird said:


> Right guys, stop the slings and arrows, behave, no more personal stuff or this thread goes into the sin bin.


That would be such a shame as this is such a well balanced debate  I think it actually shows the forum is in a good place when we can debate something for so long with "relatively" little upset.

People need to respond to the viewpoint rather than the member 

Just because i disagree with some members on this doesn't mean i don't like them or have a problem with them 

EG - Noush knows how much i adore and respect her but that doesn't mean i have to agree with 100% of everything she sais and vice versa


----------



## classixuk

Cleo38 said:


> Where I used to live the council dept who dealt with dead animals used to have a scanner. That's how my friend found out her poor cat had been knocked over.
> 
> The man who contacted her was lovely & they had wrapped up her cat for her & bought him round as she was too upset to go the depot.


I bet that wasn't Liverpool!

I was really annoyed when I found out about the way Liverpool council and vets practice. My initial question was, "So why tell us we should have our cats microchipped?" 

I'm glad your friend didn't have to go through my journey. It's not easy driving back home when you're upset. 

I should balance the thread back out though and repeat that I still let my Tigger go outside when he wants to. It's been that way for 13 years, and he does like to spray too. Keeping him in would probably drive us both insane.

The only time I've ever known Tigger to actually want to stay in was when we moved house. He hid under the quilt in the spare room for 3 days!!!


----------



## classixuk

RAINYBOW said:


> That would be such a shame as this is such a well balanced debate  I think it actually shows the forum is in a good place when we can debate something for so long with "relatively" little upset.
> 
> People need to respond to the viewpoint rather than the member
> 
> Just because i disagree with some members on this doesn't mean i don't like them or have a problem with them
> 
> EG - Noush knows how much i adore and respect her but that doesn't mean i have to agree with 100% of everything she sais and vice versa


That's how I feel about this thread too.

I respect all of the posters here, and I hope they respect me too. It doesn't mean that I need them to agree with everything I say, or me them, but talking about the differences in our opinions in a manner such as this is enlightening, encouraging and fresh.


----------



## RAINYBOW

classixuk said:


> That's how I feel about this thread too.
> 
> I respect all of the posters here, and I hope they respect me too. It doesn't mean that I need them to agree with everything I say, or me them, but talking about the differences in our opinions in a manner such as this is enlightening, encouraging and fresh.


You mean there is HOPE for open debate on the forum


----------



## classixuk

RAINYBOW said:


> You mean there is HOPE for open debate on the forum


It would certainly seem so Rainy!

I'm not sure if it's the weather, the elections or just Amethyst's magic touch, but long may it continue!!!


----------



## Guest

Well 950 posts later is very good!! 

And only a few tiff's so yes let's keep it going.


----------



## RAINYBOW

SOOoooooooo picking up on mine and Classix examples there ARE still situations where dogs "roam". 

The examples i gave i don't see that as any less or more responsible than allowing a cat out if you have assessed the risk, which those owners clearly have. 

I look at both of those and in those circumstances i think it is fine that those dogs are not confined to just a "home" environment. There are lots of "working" dogs that have the run of their estates or stable yards etc so actually there are still situations where dogs roam. I suppose we all fixated on urban areas.


----------



## Guest

bird said:


> Right guys, stop the slings and arrows, behave, no more personal stuff or this thread goes into the sin bin.


Spoilspoit

depriving me of my afternoon entertainment! what next!


----------



## Guest

RAINYBOW said:


> I don't really think i have a false sense of security because i live in a good area, like i have said it's all about your own personal attitude to risk, possiblies and probablys, pros and cons.
> 
> Bad things can happen to anyone or anything when they leave their house, or i could get electrocuted staying in my house. You have to weigh up the liklihood and base your decision on that, then live with it.
> 
> I see some parents now who are massively adverse to putting their kids at any sort of perceived "risk" and IMO that is irreponsible parenting because those children won't be fully equipped adults.


Yes we do don't we Margot
signed
Hychynt Bouquet


----------



## RAINYBOW

DoubleTrouble said:


> Yes we do don't we Margot
> signed
> Hychynt Bouquet


LMAO, that really made me laugh, cheers buddy. I am going to go and put my long maxi dress on and fix myself a G&T and look down my nose at the neighbours til Gerry gets home 

((really laughing out loud))


----------



## Guest

RAINYBOW said:


> LMAO, that really made me laugh, cheers buddy. I am going to go and put my long maxi dress on and fix myself a G&T and look down my nose at the neighbours til Gerry gets home
> 
> ((really laughing out loud))


Well I am getting dear Sheridens room ready for his pending visit to see his mummy


----------



## dougal22

RAINYBOW said:


> That would be such a shame as this is such a well balanced debate  I think it actually shows the forum is in a good place when we can debate something for so long with "relatively" little upset.


The reason for this may be that it's a 'fairly' neutral subject, not evoking overly emotional responses (from most people anyway).


----------



## RAINYBOW

dougal22 said:


> The reason for this may be that it's a 'fairly' neutral subject, not evoking overly emotional responses (from most people anyway).


I am not sure, i think people have in general debated in a respectful way despite very opposing views.

There have been inferences that both sides arent really considering the welfare of their pets as a priority made by some and tbh on here it doesn't really get more contentious than that   This is the sort of thread that generally goes belly up by about page 15


----------



## RAINYBOW

DoubleTrouble said:


> Well I am getting dear Sheridens room ready for his pending visit to see his mummy


I changed my location status just for you


----------



## Amethyst

RAINYBOW said:


> I am not sure, i think people have in general debated in a respectful way despite very opposing views.
> 
> There have been inferences that both sides arent really considering the welfare of their pets as a priority made by some and tbh on here it doesn't really get more contentious than that   This is the sort of thread that generally goes belly up by about page 15


Yes, it's such a subjective issue and though I will keep any future cat in, reading the thread, I can see people who feel very much more strongly about it than me. So it's been interesting seeing the depth of feeling on the subject too and what has especially motivated people in thier decision


----------



## dougal22

RAINYBOW said:


> I am not sure, *i think people have in general debated in a respectful way despite very opposing views.*
> 
> There have been inferences that both sides arent really considering the welfare of their pets as a priority made by some and tbh on here it doesn't really get more contentious than that   This is the sort of thread that generally goes belly up by about page 15


I agree with the bold bit above, but my belief is that it's been respectful because despite opposing views, it's not an overly emotional subject. Cat owners choose to do what they think is right for their cats with regards to indoor/outdoors. However, raise the subject of withholding medical treatment for a sick cat, or bad breeding practices, then it will get emotional. That's when the sh$t usually hits the fan


----------



## RAINYBOW

dougal22 said:


> I agree with the bold bit above, but my belief is that it's been respectful because despite opposing views, it's not an overly emotional subject. Cat owners choose to do what they think is right for their cats with regards to indoor/outdoors. However, raise the subject of withholding medical treatment for a sick cat, or bad breeding practices, then it will get emotional. That's when the sh$t usually hits the fan


LOL, absolutely agree  Some things are just "un debateable" (not sure thats a word)


----------



## Amethyst

RAINYBOW said:


> LOL, absolutely agree  Some things are just "un debateable" (not sure thats a word)


Oh yes, and I dare not even whisper them  For fear of an uprising


----------



## RAINYBOW

Amethyst said:


> Oh yes, and I dare not even whisper them  For fear of an uprising


it is a shame though because education comes from great debates as this thread proves


----------



## Amethyst

RAINYBOW said:


> it is a shame though because education comes from great debates as this thread proves


Very true and maybe we will be able to have some further debates on perhaps not too hot topics


----------



## canuckjill

classixuk said:


> It would certainly seem so Rainy!
> 
> I'm not sure if it's the weather, the elections or just Amethyst's magic touch, but long may it continue!!!


It helps when all the mods had time to take turns with this thread to watch and nip things in the bud. I have found this whole thread very interesting from the posts to all the links. And peoples personal experiences and ideas.


----------



## Amethyst

canuckjill said:


> It helps when all the mods had time to take turns with this thread to watch and nip things in the bud. I have found this whole thread very interesting from the posts to all the links. And peoples personal experiences and ideas.


Aaah .... you just had to steal my thunder


----------



## canuckjill

Nah you had to come up with the brains of this thread Amethyst and with out a good topic to debate us mods wouldn't be needed....It is surprising it is still going strong you must be chuffed (is that the UK word for it Canuck here )...


----------



## Amethyst

canuckjill said:


> Nah you had to come up with the brains of this thread Amethyst and with out a good topic to debate us mods wouldn't be needed....It is surprising it is still going strong you must be chuffed (is that the UK word for it Canuck here )...


Well, I've enjoyed it and pleased others have enjoyed contributing, brought back a lot of memories, some not happy ones but mostly good ones about my late cats ...


----------



## Sacrechat

koekemakranka said:


> Ridiculous, all of it. If you live near a busy road then you can't have a cat? What is "unnatural"? There is very little natural about the modern domestic cat, they have been living with humans for thousands of years. And then you are against neutering? That is plain stupid and irresponsible. I think you are just a lazy and irresponsible cat owner trying to justify yourself.


You forgot to use the word TROLL! Ravensthorne is deffo a troll.


----------



## Sacrechat

noushka05 said:


> ive found this myself:tongue_smilie:... its been copied from a cat forum


Ooooops! Not such an authoritative piece then?


----------



## Sacrechat

koekemakranka said:


> PS Sacremist. I love your glossy boy. He looks strong and sturdy. Love the green eyes.
> I also can't understand why black cats are so difficult to rehome.  I also find that the tuxedo cats are also the last ones to find a home. Most of the ferals I feed are tuxedos as well. They are so beautiful.


Yes, I've had a few tuxedos over the years. Mine have always been very loving. Thank you for the lovely comment about my boy. He's been in good health for a number of years now although we did have a bit of a scare with struvite crystals about seven years ago. I changed his diet though and touch wood, he's been fine since.


----------



## Sacrechat

momentofmadness said:


> D you think its cause they haven't got unique obvious pattens and colours.. Just plain black. Apparently Black dogs aren't so easy to home either..
> 
> Personally my fave is a ginger or a tortie..  Ive had 2 black cats in my life.. One was from rescue and my sis swapped a sherbit dip for a black kittie when she was about 10..


I think it could be a number of different reasons. Some say black cats are lucky: some say the opposite. It could be due to the lack of bright colours, but I love the glossy coat of a black cat.


----------



## Sacrechat

Amethyst said:


> I was lucky that I never had one of my own cats killed, though one went missing for a week and that was possibly the worst week of my life
> 
> Seeing what happened to other peoples poor cats and the strays was enough for me ... I didn't want the mangled body by the side of the road to EVER be my cat ... if I could prevent it


I lost my first cat to traffic when I was just twelve years old. It was one of the worst, most traumatic experiences of my childhood. I was lay in the road next to my cat screaming and crying. I'm filling up now as I write this. My brother had to pick me' up out of the road and carry me' inside because I wouldn't leave her. I never want to see anything like that again.


----------



## leashedForLife

Chez87 said:


> Also, I don't have dogs so I don't know, but is it not illegal to let dogs roam the streets?


in the USA, many cities, towns, counties, etc, ban roaming cats. 
the owners are required to keep the cat on their own property, & if they live in an apartment complex, 
cannot have them in common areas - only on their balcony, in their apartment, or on a leash / in a carrier.

some rare apartments include a private outside patio, but to keep a cat confined to one's own patio, 
U'd have to add cat-proof fencing at the tenant's own co$t.


----------



## leashedForLife

Nicky10 said:


> Because it's traditional. Dog owners realised it's too dangerous to let their dogs out to run fweeee
> yet cat owners still seem to insist they must go out and kill things/get killed. You put exactly the same risks of letting
> free roaming animals to dog & cat owners; the dog owners would be horrified at the idea, cat owners just seem to shrug it off.
> 
> Oh well you have to let them out otherwise you'll find little kitty sized nooses lying around and besides
> litter trays stink damn it and we don't want the hassle of having to clean those


i had a former-client who had 2 kids, 2 dogs, & 2 cats - & *did not OWN* a litter-box, the cats had 
a cat-flap in the kitchen & sprayed, pooped, & fought all over the neighborhood.

her tom was desexed as a 2-YO adult, & his name was 'Lucky' - IMO he was anything but, 
as he walked up to 3 dogs over a period of 4 years & got crunched badly each time.

he beat the *&%$*#!* out of other cats, often on their own property. 
their next-door neighbor sold their home & moved, just to escape their cats' attentions 
& the barking dogs behind the fence.  the neighbor bought a house just blocks away, 
in the same neighborhood but on the far-side of the major street, as a safety barrier.


----------



## leashedForLife

Aurelia said:


> I think perhaps that the reasons why people let their cats out are dated, and not in time
> with the way things are in the modern world. I can understand why people let their cats out, but I couldn't ever do it again
> personally.
> You only have to look at approximate stats of the number of cars on the road year by year.
> In the 60s there was about 10-million on the road, today there is more than 35 million on the road.
> So compared to the 60's your cat is more than 3 times more likely to get hit by a car.


but even ignoring the risks to cats - 
wildlife are under intense pressure today, too. Don't they deserve a break from being hunted by puss?


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

I think its quite odd that of all the varied pets we have in this country, cats are the only ones allowed to roam free

I find it odder that some people to think that cats SHOULD go outside, I have seen people with some very, shall we say, passionate, opinions on how cruel it is to keep a cat as indoors. Why is this the only pet which people feel so strongly SHOULD go outside?


----------



## leashedForLife

Amethyst said:


> Have you a link to any of this info, I know I've read of this before. I can remember
> when we were young one of my cats was a great bird killer, we just accepted things then


TNRrealitycheck.com - Cats are NOT Good for Rat Control

‪Secret Life of Cats - Part 1 of 3‬‏ - YouTube

the cost of damage to wild-birds in the USA was recently estimated at *$17 billion dollars-US.*

that's entirely ignoring all the other species they impact, as cats will hunt & kill anything, even if they 
have no intention of eating it, & aren't even hungry.

they also destroy all ages, from the eggs of turtles & other herps to mature moths & butterflies, 
beetles, mantids, snakes from hatchling to adult, lizards, amphibians, small mammals, etc.


----------



## leashedForLife

Cockerpoo lover said:


> I think cats do have a very good understanding of danger and think this
> probably becomes more developed if you *let them be what nature intended.*


Nature intended the domestic-cat to live in northern Africa - not on 6 of the 7 continents as ferals.
shall we send them all back to Egypt & its neighbors?

cats didn't fly to America, or swim to Britain. *we took them with us - and now they are pests 
over 90% of the globe's land-mass.*


----------



## leashedForLife

DoubleTrouble said:


> Personally don't think you can compare a cat with a dog - certainly not when it comes to roaming!
> ... if your dogs roams and causes an RTA they the owner can be held responsible for any damage caused!
> Then their is the issue of dogs 'attacking' - *ain't never heard of no cat attacking no one!*


Google

a really-ANGRY cat can remain furious & ready to attack for over 24-hours; no dog can stay that aroused 
for such a long, long time.

cats have 5 weapon-points, while dogs have 1 - their mouth.

i know of a number of instances of cat-attacks, including a pet-cat in a gift shop who attacked a customer 
so severely she needed stitches - over 30 stitches - in an attack that lasted less than 5-mins total. 
she had not done anything to instigate the cat's fury, no-one knew why it happened; the shop-owner 
was shocked speechless, this was *her pet.*

an angry or terrified cat is IMO much more dangerous than a dog; i've dealt with both. 
cats will rip the bloody bejabbers out of their victims, & the injuries are MUCH more likely to become 
dangerously infected, too.

have U forgotten the cats on _Barking Mad_, a BBC Tv-show that ran on Animal Planet? 
one attacked all human-visitors to the house - 
and the other, a female named Grim, attacked EVERY DOG she saw. 
Grim was under house-arrest after her repeated assaults on dogs who had done nothing but walk by, 
on leashes.

Home-Cat Attacks - Play or Prey Behaviour?


----------



## leashedForLife

lulubel said:


> I can't protect wild animals. I wish I could. Seeing them squashed on the road really upsets me.
> It also upsets me when I see other people's cats dead on the road, because there was nothing I could do to protect them either.
> 
> But I CAN protect my own cats, so I do.


also, by keeping my cat indoors, i am protecting wildlife - as well as my neighbors' garden
from my cat, & THEIR cat in THEIR yard is safe from my cat, etc.


----------



## catz4m8z

I think it comes down to liability. Despite some cats being the spawn of Satan in public there is still less blame attached to the owners if they cause RTAs or try to bite a person or dog. I mean there isnt a dangerous cat act is there?
I dont let mine roam though. Ive lost cats to cars, poison, traps and just MIA..its just not worth risking their safety..


----------



## leashedForLife

http://tinyurl.com/3kxrlff

NYX, _'Tweety Was Right: Cats Are a Birds No. 1 Enemy'_ 
By ELISABETH ROSENTHAL - Published: March 20, 2011

EXCERPT - 


> _ While public attention has focused on wind turbines as a menace to birds, a new study shows that
> a far greater threat may be posed by a more familiar antagonist: the pet house cat.
> 
> Nearly 80% of the birds were killed by predators, & cats were responsible for 47% of those deaths, according
> to the researchers, from the Smithsonian Institution & Towson University in Maryland. Death rates were particularly high
> in neighborhoods with large cat populations.
> 
> Predation was so serious in some areas that the catbirds could not replace their numbers for the next generation,
> according to the researchers, who affixed tiny radio transmitters to the birds to follow them. It is the first scientific study
> to calculate what fraction of bird deaths during the vulnerable fledgling stage can be attributed to cats. 'Cats are way up there
> in terms of threats to birds - they are a formidable force in driving out native species', said Peter Marra of the Smithsonian
> Conservation Biology Institute, one of the authors of the study.
> 
> The American Bird Conservancy estimates that up to 500-million birds are killed each year by cats - about half by pets
> & half by feral felines. 'I hope we can now stop minimizing and trivializing the impacts that outdoor cats have
> on the environment & start addressing the serious problem of cat predation', said Darin Schroeder,
> the groups vice president for conservation advocacy.
> 
> By contrast, 440,000 birds are killed by wind turbines each year, according to the United States Fish & Wildlife Service,
> although that number is expected to exceed one-million by 2030 as the number of wind farms grows
> to meet increased demand.
> 
> The American Bird Conservancy generally supports the development of wind energy, but it argues that wind farms
> should be 'bird smart' - for example, positioned so that they do not interfere with major migration paths
> or disturb breeding grounds, with their power lines buried to prevent collisions.
> 
> 'Im excited about wind; we just have to be careful where and how we put the turbines', said Dr. Marra, who studies
> threats to birds, including from climate change and habitat loss. He said the leading cause of bird deaths over all,
> as opposed to the catbird fledglings in the study, remained collisions with buildings, windows and towers,
> followed by predators.
> 
> Yet wind turbines often provoke greater outrage than cats do, said Gavin Shire, vice president of the Bird Conservancy.
> 'The idea of a man-made machine chopping a bird in half creates a visceral reaction', he said, 'while the idea of a predator
> with its prey in its mouth  well weve seen that on the Nature Channel. Peoples reaction is that it is normal
> for cats to kill birds.'
> 
> Household cats were introduced in North America by European colonists; they are regarded as an invasive species
> and have few natural enemies to check their numbers. 'They are like gypsy moths and kudzu - they cause major
> ecological disruption', Dr. Marra said. _
> 
> © 2011, The New York Times Company


----------



## Cleo38

leashedForLife said:


> also, by keeping my cat indoors, i am protecting wildlife - as well as my neighbors' garden
> from my cat, & THEIR cat in THEIR yard is safe from my cat, etc.


But if I had kept one of my cats inside (he walked in to my flat one day & never left!) I would have caused him stress by not allowing him to roam. He was already used to doing this & frequented many of our local shops, a restaurant & a pub.

Tere is no way he would have been a happy, healthy cat inside no matter how many scratch posts or toys were provided.

He was never injured on the roads & lived to an old age


----------



## RAINYBOW

Maybe if cats aren't native to this country and are causing such a massive problem then rather than make people keep them indoors they should be banned and culled  (this is obviously not a serious suggestion)

Not sure why this debate has ben resurrected, i doubt there is very much to add to the groaning weight of posts from both sides of the argument that doesn't just continue to go round in circles.

I just don't get the safety thing though. How about i keep my kids indoors until they are, well what age shall we say 18,21 errrrrr they go mad and climb out a window :wink: There are just too many dangers for them in the world so it's surely best i keep them home.

See keeping cats indoors makes no more sense to me than that does which is why i don't see the argument. 

I have only ever owned Farm type bred Outdoor cats who IMO would never have adapted to being indoors , maybe if i had owned indoor bred cats i would feel differently but to be honest when i owned cats was mostly when i was out at work all day so any indoor cat i had would have had a pretty dull and solitary life


----------



## Cleo38

RAINYBOW said:


> Maybe if cates aren't native to this country nd are cusing such a massive problem then rather than make people keep them indoors they should be banned and culled  (this is obviously not a serious suggestion)
> 
> Not sure why this debate has ben resurrected, i doubt there is very much to add to the groaning weight of posts frrom boh sides of the argument that doesn't just continue to go round in circles.
> 
> I just don't get the safety thing though. How about i keep my kids indoors until they are, well what age shall we say 18,21 errrrrr they go mad and climb out a window :wink: There are just too many dangers for them in the world so it's surely best i keep them home.
> 
> See keeping cats indoors makes no more sense to me than that does which is why i don't see the argument.
> 
> I have only ever owned Farm type bred Outdoor cats who IMO would never have adapted to being indoors , maybe if i had owned indoor bred cats i would feel differently but to be honest when i owned cats was mostly when i was out at work all day so any indoor cat i had would have had a pretty dull and solitary life


Agreed. As I've said before I've had indoor & outdoor cats & can see for some cats & especially those raised from kittens) that they can have happy & fullfilled lives being indoors.

But .... what about rescue or stray cats that have had experience of the outdoors? Is it really fair to impose a life inside on them purely to keep them safer & maybe prevent some wildlife being killed?

My cats now both go out having previously been indoor cat. Winnie is now mice hunter of the year & is always outside. Basil is not so fussed. There is no way now that Winnie could go back to being an indoor cat although Basil could.

Despite both being cats they have different needs & different likes/dislikes & to think that they could both be happy living indoors is naive.


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

Well my cat has been missing for 30 days now ( 31 today) and he is an outdoor cat.

He was a stray who adopted me and he was both used to going out and hated staying in apart from a couple of hours at a time although there were days when he did stay in all day.

Whilst I am deeply upset at him missing- I know the time I looked after him ( I was his guardian for 7 and half years) he was a happy cat. He loved being with all the other outdoor cats around here ( we have quite a few)-sunbathing on my garage and generally be out and about.

There will always be debates about indoor v outdoor and there are pros and cons to each.

But people should respect each others choices even if they don't agree.


----------



## koekemakranka

leashedForLife said:


> Google
> 
> an angry or terrified cat is IMO much more dangerous than a dog;


I am sorry, but statistically, that is just not true.

(but I am pro-indoor cats)


----------



## Guest

I think it's acceptable for cats to roam & not dogs as they are completely different animals :huh:

Maisie is an indoor cat, I'd love to let her out but it's not what were after.
I don't want her annoying other people / dogs, digging & pooping in other people's gardens, killing birds, disappearing, catching fleas, getting into fights, someone else feed her, get pinched, get squashed etc.

I like the fact I can let her have supervised outdoor time, she comes when called, doesn't run off, she loves lying on the grass & jumping on the kids outdoor toys Inc trampoline, I'd hate her to never get any outdoor time, I'd feel very crule as I know her outdoor counterparts love running about, having freedom to come & go etc! For me we've got the perfect balance, I know she's safe & were all happy.

Cats can suit every different lifestyle, if I worked full time had a busy lifestyle I wouldn't have an indoor cat as I think it's 
mean keeping them shut in all day, even with feline company! In that situation I'd have an outdoor cat!
But, I'm a full time mum, hubby works from home & our cat has 24hrs stimulation when ever 'she' wants it!

Cats & dogs are so very different I can't see why the question is being asked! Cats have roamed for years! Dogs don't! 

I'm pro indoor & outdoor pussys  dogs on leads, let off in safe places!


----------



## Ally-Kats

Myanimalmadhouse said:


> This really does sound like a "people who let their cats outdoors dont love em as much as we do" or "outdoor cats are bad" thread - seriously it does!
> 
> I dont say having indoor only cats are bad, its personal choice and usually dependant on circumstances and yes maybe if I did live next to the M1 I would keep mine in but being as I live in a nice quiet cul de sac and not close to any major roads and all my neighbours know me and my cats and I know them and their cats then why shouldn't my cats be allowed outdoors?
> 
> I do live in the modern world and quite frankly I hate it - its full of hateful, selfish mindset people who think its quite acceptable to do what ever they want,whenever they want and to whoever they want!
> 
> Thats why I love animals, they have logical behaviour and yes they can actually adapt and learn and I've seen one of my cats see a car, stop and wait for it to pass before crossing! They are also taught to be friendly and loving but to beware of strangers and to not let anyone but me or the vet pick them up - not even my kids!
> 
> The youngest cat we've ever had die young was snowy and that was cus she was deaf and had a particular like for the icecream van yet she still managed to live to the age of 13.
> 
> So the statistics of "the average outdoor cat only lives to 2-3 years old" might be right if you live in a major city or next to the M1 but its certainly not correct around here! Mine are currently aged between 2 and 9 years old and erics cats over the road from me are 16 and 18 and they are both outdoors alot more than mine!


Mines 16 and could never be an indoor cat, he's laying in the garden right now with the sun on his back and the breeze on his face and he is in heaven  Each to their own I say, there is no right or wrong in this debate, only that you do what is best for your cat and also take the environment they live in into account when making the decision of indoor v outdoor


----------



## Nico0laGouldsmith

Ally-Kats said:


> Mines 16 and could never be an indoor cat, he's laying in the garden right now with the sun on his back and the breeze on his face and he is in heaven  Each to their own I say, there is no right or wrong in this debate, only that you do what is best for your cat and also take the environment they live in into account when making the decision of indoor v outdoor


my cat is 17 and she's the same 

we live in a small close and she rarely ventures from the garden nowadays though. . . she used to go into the fields and come back hours later  she does spend more time indoors now than she used to but I think that's because there's a constant supply of food. . . she loves nothing more though than to lay on the plant pots outside because they stay really warm all day as they absorb the heat from the sun and then even when the sun moves round they stay like little radiators 

apparently the live expectancy of an outdoor cat is fairly low but I think that's based on cats that live right next to fast main roads and things


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

I don't think this is an indoor good, outdoor bad thread. Or it wasnt until 'recently'

Anyway, my weird issue is with people who think it is 'cruel' not to let cats out and who think cats SHOULD go out. Not can, should. It makes zero sense, and there are no other pets who we afford this same view point on. No one takes their fish to the local pond for a bigger swim. No one lets rabbits/guineas/hamsters run wild for a bit. Dogs, no. Horses, no...


----------



## leashedForLife

> Originally Posted by *leashedForLife -*
> 
> _an angry or terrified cat is IMO much more dangerous than a dog..._





koekemakranka said:


> I am sorry, but statistically, that is just not true.
> 
> (but I am pro-indoor cats)


i am not comparing *angry* or *terrified* cats to *angry* or *terrified* dogs.

i am comparing a scared or furious cat to a dog in general; dogs are not automatically dangerous. 
ALL frightened or furious cats are dangerous - leaving them strictly alone is the best option, if possible.

i also feel much more confident of my chances of being unscathed, even WITH a frightened or furious dog, 
than with an unknown cat who is not apparently frightened or furious at the moment, but to whom i'm a stranger.
being a stranger to the aroused dog is less of a worry than being a stranger to an unknown cat; i can appease 
the aroused dog - i can't do sod-all about being a stranger to the feline. 

ask the pros U know: 
ask a vet, vet-tech, or ACO which species they'd prefer to examine, treat, or capture, all else equal. 
i think U'll be surprised - an 8# cat can be way-worse than an 80# dog. 

as one contrasting example: 
if dogs roamed at large, as was once common, dogs would have more options: to flee vs confront 
an intruder for one, as a dog trapped by a fence or chained is forced by limited space to either fight 
or freeze when approached. A dog stuck in their yard, or on a leash, *cannot flee* an approaching human.

NOTE that i'm not advocating we let dogs roam! Only pointing out one large difference: available options. 
the option to flee reduces the likelihood of conflict; cats who roam outdoors can flee, but dogs cannot. 
if we remove the option to flee & force the animal to cope with our attentions, cats are more likely 
than dogs to react badly to strangers handling them: many dogs are handleable if not happy at the vets' 
or the groomers' - examining or bathing a cat can mean all-out war from many cats.

* cats are more territorial than most dogs - even guarding breeds. 
* cats are more resentful of strangers handling them than most dogs. 
even social cats are less tolerant of handling or strangers than most dogs.

risk of infection & injury is strikingly different -
- most of the bites delivered by dogs do not require medical attention. 
first-aid at home is adequate.

- even one puncture from a cat-tooth or scratch from a claw can be very serious. 
a minor cat-inflicted injury can have U in intensive-care on an IV-antibiotic in 24 to 48-hours.


----------



## Ianthi

Nico0laGouldsmith said:


> my cat is 17 and she's the same
> 
> we live in a small close and she rarely ventures from the garden nowadays though. . . she used to go into the fields and come back hours later  she does spend more time indoors now than she used to but I think that's because there's a constant supply of food. . . she loves nothing more though than to lay on the plant pots outside because they stay really warm all day as they absorb the heat from the sun and then even when the sun moves round they stay like little radiators
> 
> apparently the live expectancy of an outdoor cat is fairly low but I think that's based on cats that live right next to fast main roads and things


Nicola - Your location sounds very similar to mine in that we live in an extremely quiet location with lots of open spaces and little or no traffic. Mine has always been indoor/outdoor BUT this would not be the case if I lived on/near a main road. They've never ventured very far from home at any stage.

Strangely enough my little oldies ( 18, 17 ) like to do exactly the same thing. I regularly find my oldest asleep in unplanted pots - the other night she was curled up in one of the hanging baskets I'd taken down earlier that day to replant!


----------



## Nico0laGouldsmith

gloworm*mushroom said:


> I don't think this is an indoor good, outdoor bad thread. Or it wasnt until 'recently'
> 
> Anyway, my weird issue is with people who think it is 'cruel' not to let cats out and who think cats SHOULD go out. Not can, should. It makes zero sense, and there are no other pets who we afford this same view point on. No one takes their fish to the local pond for a bigger swim. No one lets rabbits/guineas/hamsters run wild for a bit. Dogs, no. Horses, no...


yeah I totally agree my boyfriend always jokes and says we should take our ducks for a swim on the local pond. . .but we'd never actually do it. . .

I wouldn't let my cat out if we didn't live where we live and to be honest I think that when I get any new cats when my boyfriend and I get a house the cat will be in a cat proofed garden and house because I would worry too much. . .my cat is quite old and she keeps herself safe on the drive and it wasn't my decision to let her out. . I think nowadays though it is less safe to just let them roam. . .but like I said it depends on where you live. . .it's not cruel to keep them in if they've never known what it's like to be outside anyway

I knew someone once (not a friend just knew them through my job) who let their dog roam it was crazy!!!!! I saw it on a neighbouring road and took it home and asked if she'd let it out by accident and she said no it just goes for walks by itself! She was in a wheelchair but that's no excuse!


----------



## RAINYBOW

gloworm*mushroom said:


> I don't think this is an indoor good, outdoor bad thread. Or it wasnt until 'recently'
> 
> Anyway, my weird issue is with people who think it is 'cruel' not to let cats out and who think cats SHOULD go out. Not can, should. It makes zero sense, and there are no other pets who we afford this same view point on. No one takes their fish to the local pond for a bigger swim. No one lets rabbits/guineas/hamsters run wild for a bit. Dogs, no. Horses, no...


But dogs get walked and horses get ridden 

I would hope that anyone keping smaller aimals would also ensure the anima had enough space to exhibit it's natural behaviours.

If we are going to compare all animals (which i kind ofdont see the point because they have differing needs) Take dogs for example. SOME dogs can live happily with no walks, they are content but others go loopy without being walked a fair distance every day, now i could never advocate that someone should keep a dog that NEEDED to be walked every day in the house only.

Like i sad before never the twain, this just goes round in circles


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

RAINYBOW said:


> But dogs get walked and horses get ridden
> 
> I would hope that anyone keping smaller aimals would also ensure the anima had enough space to exhibit it's natural behaviours.
> 
> If we are going to compare all animals (which i kind ofdont see the point because they have differing needs) Take dogs for example. SOME dogs can live happily with no walks, they are content but others go loopy without being walked a fair distance every day, now i could never advocate that someone should keep a dog that NEEDED to be walked every day in the house only.
> 
> Like i sad before never the twain, this just goes round in circles


They are not allowed to 'roam' freely is my point... Taking an animal out with some sort of restraint is clearly not the same.

Like I said, if people want to let their cats out that is fine. But cats do NOT require to go out...


----------



## RAINYBOW

gloworm*mushroom said:


> They are not allowed to 'roam' freely is my point... Taking an animal out with some sort of restraint is clearly not the same.
> 
> Like I said, if people want to let their cats out that is fine. But cats do NOT require to go out...


I accept that some cats may not but That is i suppose the point at which we disagree because i believe that "some" cats do


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

RAINYBOW said:


> I accept that some cats may not but That is i suppose the point at which we disagree because i believe that "some" cats do


I dont believe any cat does from birth, but if a cat has been let out previously for any amount of time then it can be hard for it to adapt back to staying inside of course, as its habit.


----------



## Nico0laGouldsmith

Ianthi said:


> Nicola - Your location sounds very similar to mine in that we live in an extremely quiet location with lots of open spaces and little or no traffic. Mine has always been indoor/outdoor BUT this would not be the case if I lived on/near a main road. They've never ventured very far from home at any stage.
> 
> Strangely enough my little oldies ( 18, 17 ) like to do exactly the same thing. I regularly find my oldest asleep in unplanted pots - the other night she was curled up in one of the hanging baskets I'd taken down earlier that day to replant!


awwwwwww yeah my girl just curls up in the tiniest plant pot because the other ones have plants in  hahaha


----------



## Ally-Kats

Nico0laGouldsmith said:


> my cat is 17 and she's the same
> 
> we live in a small close and she rarely ventures from the garden nowadays though. . . she used to go into the fields and come back hours later  she does spend more time indoors now than she used to but I think that's because there's a constant supply of food. . . she loves nothing more though than to lay on the plant pots outside because they stay really warm all day as they absorb the heat from the sun and then even when the sun moves round they stay like little radiators
> 
> apparently the live expectancy of an outdoor cat is fairly low but I think that's based on cats that live right next to fast main roads and things


We live in a small close too and my neighbours all know my cat and keep an eye out for him, he can still be a little b****r even at his age and will refuse to come in at night when I want him in, he eventually strolls in through his flap, he's very stubborn and independant  As soon as it starts getting chilly though we see much more of him in the house, but I know all his favourite places in the garden and he's never far away, he sits and watches the world go by and sunbathes  what a life eh!


----------



## leashedForLife

What the cat brought in - News story - Media - rspca.org.uk

the cat brought home an entire nest, complete with one near-fledging bird. 
she brought 2 more in thru the flap while the couple were wondering what the lump of moss was. 
2 of the 3 fledglings died despite care - the remaining goldcrest will be reared & released.

how long can we repeat this around the world? 
FORTY PERCENT of the planet's bird species alone are currently threatened, to one degree or another. 
that ignores all other small animals, plus the young of larger animals [like turtles & gators] 
whose eggs & hatchlings are eagerly pounced on, & played with, killed outright, eaten or just tormented.

that the cat does not *deliberately* torture does not mean it is not torture for the victim.
i grew-up with outdoor cats on a farm; i've pulled a bleeding, screaming bunny out of a cat's teeth, 
when they woke me up, the 4 of them, toying with it at 1 or 2-AM on the back lawn. 
it happened many times, & my complaints to my parents were not heeded - after all, i was just a kid. 
what did i know?

what i know NOW is that in the intervening 40-years, it's only gotten worse. 
more & more species are sliding into oblivion. Do we act - or just ignore it?


----------



## Nico0laGouldsmith

Ally-Kats said:


> We live in a small close too and my neighbours all know my cat and keep an eye out for him, he can still be a little b****r even at his age and will refuse to come in at night when I want him in, he eventually strolls in through his flap, he's very stubborn and independant  As soon as it starts getting chilly though we see much more of him in the house, but I know all his favourite places in the garden and he's never far away, he sits and watches the world go by and sunbathes  what a life eh!


awww my girl is exactly the same. . .in the summer you're lucky if she sleeps inside. .she comes in for food and then straight back out. . . then as the nights start getting colder you find her glued to the settee in the conservatory not even looking to go out. . she doesn't use or have a litter tray because she hates them and it's amazing how long she can hold it if it means going out in the cold weather!!!! literally about 10 hours at least. . . she refuses to go out and would rather sit there desperate for a wee. . .and no she wont even use a litter box when she's that desperate I try!!!

She comes and greets us whenever we pull up on the drive if she's outside. .you just see her little tail shoot across the front of the car or she'll sit just out of the way and watch you in 

She refused to move the other day though because I had a new car. . .she just sat there thinking the strange car wouldn't be coming on the drive so I had to get out so she saw me and moved hahahaha and she recognises the sound of our cars because if you watch her from a window and someone comes home you know they're home before you see them because she hears them from where they enter the close at the very end and she comes running out. . . but she doesn't do it for cars turning in the close or any of the neighbours hahaha then she might come strolling in with the person who's home. . . which is a bit annoying when you've been trying to get her to come in for ages and then she comes in with someone. . .but then maybe she just likes to know everyone is home and then she can come inside. . . that's her job done


----------



## Ally-Kats

Nico0laGouldsmith said:


> awww my girl is exactly the same. . .in the summer you're lucky if she sleeps inside. .she comes in for food and then straight back out. . . then as the nights start getting colder you find her glued to the settee in the conservatory not even looking to go out. . she doesn't use or have a litter tray because she hates them and it's amazing how long she can hold it if it means going out in the cold weather!!!! literally about 10 hours at least. . . she refuses to go out and would rather sit there desperate for a wee. . .and no she wont even use a litter box when she's that desperate I try!!!
> 
> She comes and greets us whenever we pull up on the drive if she's outside. .you just see her little tail shoot across the front of the car or she'll sit just out of the way and watch you in
> 
> She refused to move the other day though because I had a new car. . .she just sat there thinking the strange car wouldn't be coming on the drive so I had to get out so she saw me and moved hahahaha and she recognises the sound of our cars because if you watch her from a window and someone comes home you know they're home before you see them because she hears them from where they enter the close at the very end and she comes running out. . . but she doesn't do it for cars turning in the close or any of the neighbours hahaha then she might come strolling in with the person who's home. . . which is a bit annoying when you've been trying to get her to come in for ages and then she comes in with someone. . .but then maybe she just likes to know everyone is home and then she can come inside. . . that's her job done


Sounds like our cats are both the same, Scamp watches the car as he hates the noise of them and then follows us in. What you say about trying to get her in for ages and then coming in with whoever happens to turn up is also true of Scamp, even the toilet thing, he also holds it for ages and refuses to entertain the litter tray, even though I plonk him in it  Sounds like two peas in a pod to me


----------



## Nico0laGouldsmith

Ally-Kats said:


> Sounds like our cats are both the same, Scamp watches the car as he hates the noise of them and then follows us in. What you say about trying to get her in for ages and then coming in with whoever happens to turn up is also true of Scamp, even the toilet thing, he also holds it for ages and refuses to entertain the litter tray, even though I plonk him in it  Sounds like two peas in a pod to me


haha awwwwwwwwww

they're so silly with the litter trays!!! I once kidnapped her and took her to my flat when I lived out for university and she got so annoyed because she couldn't go outside to wee. ..and she did very reluctantly use the litter tray but only because she had already been there for 14 hours and was now aware she wasn't going outside hahahaha she only used it when I wasn't in the room though!!!!

and then when I fetched her home again she ran straight outside really excited


----------



## koekemakranka

leashedForLife said:


> i am not comparing *angry* or *terrified* cats to *angry* or *terrified* dogs.
> 
> i am comparing a scared or furious cat to a dog in general; dogs are not automatically dangerous.
> ALL frightened or furious cats are dangerous - leaving them strictly alone is the best option, if possible.


I am sorry, I do not understand your reasoning here. I am pro-indoor cats because I am concerned about the safety of my cats and also I don't want them bothering my neighbours. However, I do not keep them indoors because I am afraid they will attack someone. 
I feed and care for feral cats. Number of times I have been bitten or scratched by them = 0, number of times I have been attacked or lunged at = 0
I do not have dogs. Number of times I have been bitten = 2, attacked without being bitten = 1, lunged and growled at = countless. This is just by walking down the road, minding my own business (I do not enter people's property if they have dogs or if they do not tell me it's ok) 
So, in my case, I would say dogs are more likely to be "automatically" dangerous.


----------



## Cleo38

leashedForLife said:


> What the cat brought in - News story - Media - rspca.org.uk
> 
> the cat brought home an entire nest, complete with one near-fledging bird.
> she brought 2 more in thru the flap while the couple were wondering what the lump of moss was.
> 2 of the 3 fledglings died despite care - the remaining goldcrest will be reared & released.
> 
> how long can we repeat this around the world?
> FORTY PERCENT of the planet's bird species alone are currently threatened, to one degree or another.
> that ignores all other small animals, plus the young of larger animals [like turtles & gators]
> whose eggs & hatchlings are eagerly pounced on, & played with, killed outright, eaten or just tormented.
> 
> that the cat does not *deliberately* torture does not mean it is not torture for the victim.
> i grew-up with outdoor cats on a farm; i've pulled a bleeding, screaming bunny out of a cat's teeth,
> when they woke me up, the 4 of them, toying with it at 1 or 2-AM on the back lawn.
> it happened many times, & my complaints to my parents were not heeded - after all, i was just a kid.
> what did i know?
> 
> what i know NOW is that in the intervening 40-years, it's only gotten worse.
> more & more species are sliding into oblivion. Do we act - or just ignore it?


There has been various threads on here regarding surveys & statistics but no concrete proof that (overall) cats are repsonsible for declining bird or mammal populations (in the UK). In localised areas there may be specific problems & cats may have an impact on an already fragile species but not overall.

One of my cats (who ventures outdoor occcassionally) has never caught anything therefore his impact to the surrounding wildlife is zero. One of my dogs has caught & killed far more than him. None of my previous cats were hunters (although I do realise that just becuase they did not bring home kills does not prove this, I can only assume from watching them when they were out) & it is only Winnie that has shown this blood lust for small mammals (she's not interested in birds, just mice & shrews).

I think most people here try to do whats' best for their cat whether that be letting them outside or keeping them in but there is no one option that suits all cats


----------



## lechatnoir83

Ok.. I've not read the entirety of this thread as at 101 pages long it'd take a while. I've seen that it's sparked a debate about indoor and outdoor cats, something I am having a small inside debate about now I am going to get my own place (an apartment). I've always had cats and they've always been free to come and go using the cat flap my parents put in years ago, we live close to a busy road and although I've lost 2 to the road (breaks my heart) my parents current boys have reached the grand old ages of 15 and 18 and have roamed happily as neutered toms. My last cat to die was 15, living in the same house near the road and he was pts due to a growth on his spleen. SO it is possible for cats to live to a long age while going outside, also been proven statistically that the older a cat is the less likely it is to be involved in an rtc, but those stats are about 7 years old and may be different now? However even the longevity of the old boys at home it doesn't stop me considering indoor cats. 

Each to their own I guess, as long as the cat is happy, healthy, correctly cared for and loved then who can say its a bad life?

Just caught the end of another post about the wildlife threat, the 15 year old never goes after anything but jackdaws (every year the same swelling on the head from being pecked - he never learns) and the 18 year old prefers climbing trees to bird catching. I'm more concerned about grey squirrels, magpies and the never ending addition of non-native species being "released" into our country who decimate the bird life than the cat population to be honest.


----------



## Jiskefet

Edit:

Troll alert!!!!!

Resurrecting a 4 year-old thread for the sole purpose of creating controversy and disgust.


----------



## Nicky10

:frown2: oh come on now that's not even trying. Trolls these days man


----------



## Lilylass

Me thinks the user won't be around for long!

Troll - please everyone ignore it!


----------



## lymorelynn

Excitement over  but I am closing this before it stirs up any more argument on the topic


----------

