# Easy raw recipe



## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Ok, as started over on another thread, I have set a challenge for The Venerable Hobbs to create and post an EASY and complete raw recipe.
I think too many people worry that you have to be a scientist to put together a balanced raw diet...well WE don't need to be scientists 'cos we have Hobbs!
So...Here are the rules
All items should be available on the high st, supplements too.
Meat with bone in and skin on ( life is too short to skin meat! ) 
Animal sources can be mixed
I suggest a total weight of around 5lbs....but this is flexible, bearing in mind most people have limited freezer space.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

hobbs2004 said:


> Anyhow, here is a potential "easy" recipe
> 
> 1000g lamb meat ------------------------------------or any other meat, beef, chicken with skin, duck, rabbit, venison
> 500g lamb breast (together that is 50% meat)
> ...


Wow, Hobbs...that is fantastic....and it is NEARLY easy enough.
Without compromising, can we make this easier for Joe Bloggs our new forum member who wants to feed raw? I think he may ask some questions...
Where can I buy seaweed powder?
Holland and Barratt sells kelp is that the same thing?
Fresh salmon or tinned? cooked or raw? smoked ( nah! )
Can I use fish oil instead of the salmon?
Where do I buy eggshell powder _on the high st?_
Regular table salt, or sea salt, or lo-salt, or Himalayan pink salt? 
Just to complicate things...how would I adapt the above if I wanted to use chicken thighs as a main meat source?


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Oh....and 50 g of wheatgerm oil? 44 capsules of Holland and Barratt 1130mg wheat germ oil??


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Paddypaws said:


> Wow, Hobbs...that is fantastic....and it is NEARLY easy enough.
> Without compromising, can we make this easier for Joe Bloggs our new forum member who wants to feed raw? I think he may ask some questions...
> Where can I buy seaweed powder?
> Holland and Barratt sells kelp is that the same thing?
> ...


Even easier - hrrummpf 

Kelp is a seaweed. The seaweed I use is similar to the stuff they sell on zooplus and contains: Jod 755 mg/kg. Don't use any form of seaweed though if you have got a cat with hyperthyroidism. If you have black cats though you will notice them getting darker as the iodine intensifies the pigments,

Salmon. You could be fresh and use it raw but then freeze it with the food you make up in advance. Kills off any bacteria. And no, not smoked and no precooked either.

Salmon oil - no, this is not a substitute for using fresh salmon. Though I forgot that in my recipes. I use about 2 capsules per 1kg of meat for the fatty acids. I add that to the food when I serve though, I don't freeze the oil.

Sadly you cannot buy eggshell powder easily in the UK. You have a hard time even getting calcium carbonate, though that is a great alternative (well they are basically the same). But you can easily make it yourself by keeping the eggshells of the eggs you use back, washing them out, getting rid of the inner membrane, storing them in the fridge and then using a grinder to powder it to a fine,well powder. You can get calcium carbonate off ebay or either from German barf shops. You could start lobying zooplus to start stocking it (their German home site contains a Barf section....)

Regular table salt will do. In the US they use iodine salt to get iodine into their cats. Or, of course, you can use the pink Himalayan salt. I actually do  Just because I got it really cheap lol

I would also add taurine to the food. Particularly if I were to mince it. About 3g for the above amount.

Will post the chicken thigh recipe in a different post.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Now that's easy! ( and cheaper! )
Yes my grinder handles thighs just fine.
But can I check that *50g* of wheatgerm oil?


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Quick question on grinders. Do you have a special machine or would my Magimixx do the job?


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Paddypaws said:


> Now that's easy! ( and cheaper! )
> Yes my grinder handles thighs just fine.
> But can I check that *50g* of wheatgerm oil?


I WANT your grinder 

What about those 50g wheatgerm oil? It is expensive, I said. But if you have access to some vit e drops (those that don't contain any other things) then you could do 50/50 or 25/75. I get a 250ml bottle for 8 euro, which lasts me for about 10-15kg of meat or 50 daily rations for my two grown boys.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

You might be ok to grind the meat without the bones with a magimix attachment...but I bought a Kenwood meat grinder which handles chicken legs just fine.


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

If anyone is interested, I will post a boneless recipe.


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## ccarriee (Sep 24, 2009)

Got a few questions. Most importantly, my cats are now rejecting meals with supplements added. I persuaded them in the beginning by feeding them by hand (which they love for some reason) or adding treats. Failing that, I would simply plonk down the bowls and declare, 'That's your dinner and you ain't getting nothing else!'

But they have never been very impressed with the supplement gravy.

I feed mostly diced meat, then a thigh or wing every fourth meal, give or take. So the supplements must be added to the diced meat and I guess that's just not as easy as adding them to miced meat into which this gravy would presumably mix better. First I sprinkle the powdered supplements over the meat, then I drizzle the oils and taurine water and then, if there's any, drizzle blood on top because it appears to make their meal more appealing. But this doesn't seem to be working anymore and I don't know what to do. I have also tried premixing the gravy in a separate container before adding to their bowls but they don't like that any better and I risk losing some of the tiny measurements of powdered supplements. Should I abandon this complex gravy malarkey and simply try Felini Complete or TC Premix? Not that they would necessarily take to those either.

Right, my other questions refer directly to your recipe. 17g salmon is such a small amount and there's obviously a limit to how many times I can freeze and defrost and refreeze the rest - can I supplement vit D3 from H&B and how much would I need to add?

Having said that, the best product I can find is this one- Holland and Barrett - Fast Acting Liquid Vitamin D3 -which is not promising.

As for seaweed, well, this might sound silly but how would I know if my cat has a thyroid problem and that supplementing it could be potentially dangerous? I ask because I have one rather large cat (7kg) and another whose growth was stunted as a kitten...is it better to err on the side of caution here?

Sorry for my mad rambling... :crazy:


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

ccarriee said:


> Got a few questions. Most importantly, my cats are now rejecting meals with supplements added. I persuaded them in the beginning by feeding them by hand (which they love for some reason) or adding treats. Failing that, I would simply plonk down the bowls and declare, 'That's your dinner and you ain't getting nothing else!'
> 
> But they have never been very impressed with the supplement gravy.
> 
> ...


Hiya, haven't seen you for a while. 

Am I reading it right, that you don't make up the chunks in large batches with the supplements and freeze them in portions but add them to each meal? I wonder whether that is the issue. Could you make up a batch with the supplements, freeze it for a week or two and see whether that makes a difference? (Clutching at straws but hey...)

Also, it could be one particular supplement that they don't like. So you could start from scratch and add them one after the other over time (again, with periods of freezing perhaps).

In the meantime I would just forget about using the supplements. Just feed the meat, offal and your bones every n meal. Perhaps add the taurine (no harm and is tasteless I believe) and every third day add some salmon oil if they eat that.

My cats love the TC Premix, and I use it occasionally. Again, you will need to premix and freeze. It is not a drizzle on sort of supplement.

Re the Vit D3. You can substitute the salmon for 1/2 tablet of Vit 3 500 iu or 1/4 tablet of 1000 iu. Does that help?

Re the iodine, not at all silly. If you are concerned about the thyroid function of one or both of your cats then perhaps do a little more research before using seaweed powder or salt with iodine. Incidentally, I just recently read that excess as well as lack of sufficient iodine in the diet has been associated with feline thyroid disease.

Hope that helps!


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## HannahKate (Jun 6, 2010)

A bit off topic but was talking to my small animals lecturer today and apparently hyperthyroidism is really rare in slovakia. You are much more likely to find a dog or human with hypo than a cat with hyper apparently because the levels of iodine are generally low here. Low in what I didn't quite get round to asking. However she was yet another of my profs to advocate the feeding of raw food for animals


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## ccarriee (Sep 24, 2009)

Wow, speedy response! Thank you Hobbs 



hobbs2004 said:


> Am I reading it right, that you don't make up the chunks in large batches with the supplements and freeze them in portions but add them to each meal? I wonder whether that is the issue. Could you make up a batch with the supplements, freeze it for a week or two and see whether that makes a difference? (Clutching at straws but hey...)
> 
> Also, it could be one particular supplement that they don't like. So you could start from scratch and add them one after the other over time (again, with periods of freezing perhaps).
> 
> In the meantime I would just forget about using the supplements. Just feed the meat, offal and your bones every n meal. Perhaps add the taurine (no harm and is tasteless I believe) and every third day add some salmon oil if they eat that.


Yep, you got it. I have a tiny freezer compartment (rented property) so it's simply more practical for me to buy packs of diced meat from the supermarket once a week, as opposed to what I imagine to be the more common practice of buying in bulk from a butcher, then dicing or grinding the meat, making supplement gravy, and freezing it all together. I have enough space to freeze small batches of liver, heart and kidney that I've chopped up, plus some thighs or wings, but not much else.

You're probably right to suggest it though because I guess the gravy would get partially absorbed by the chunks of meat when frozen.

What I definitely have done is try different supplements on their own. That's pretty much all I can do at the mo since the gravy is being flatly rejected. They won't touch any powdered supplements or the taurine water -weird I know, but I can only assume that they don't like the puddle of water at the bottom of the bowl- and are finicky about the oils, even fish oils which they used to enjoy. sigh



hobbs2004 said:


> My cats love the TC Premix, and I use it occasionally. Again, you will need to premix and freeze. It is not a drizzle on sort of supplement.


hmm. What about Felini Complete? is that a premix too?



hobbs2004 said:


> Re the Vit D3. You can substitute the salmon for 1/2 tablet of Vit 3 500 iu or 1/4 tablet of 1000 iu. Does that help?


Theoretically yes, but unless it comes in capsule or liquid form then I might as well not bother since they won't eat ground tablet.



hobbs2004 said:


> Re the iodine, not at all silly. If you are concerned about the thyroid function of one or both of your cats then perhaps do a little more research before using seaweed powder or salt with iodine. Incidentally, I just recently read that excess as well as lack of sufficient iodine in the diet has been associated with feline thyroid disease.


Thanks. Better do some reading!


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

I also read ( sorry cannot give the reference ) that cats actually adapt pretty well to either high or low levels of taurine in their food....and that there is a wide degree of variation in prepared food products. It is _suggested_ that our practice of varying the food brands/mixes given to the cat is actually a problem....so although I like to rotate and feed different brands this _may_ be an issue.


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Paddypaws said:


> I also read ( sorry cannot give the reference ) that cats actually adapt pretty well to either high or low levels of taurine in their food....and that there is a wide degree of variation in prepared food products. It is _suggested_ that our practice of varying the food brands/mixes given to the cat is actually a problem....so although I like to rotate and feed different brands this _may_ be an issue.


Oh you tease! Find that reference!


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

I know it is very poor form to say ' I read somewhere....' but I just cannot remember...proabably an american site, and as I recall it mentioned the dangers of pop-top cans too.


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## Kiwi (Nov 18, 2010)

hobbs2004 said:


> Anyhow, here is a potential "easy" recipe
> 
> 1000g lamb meat ------------------------------------or any other meat, beef, chicken with skin, duck, rabbit, venison
> 500g lamb breast (together that is 50% meat)
> ...


OMG - this is 'easy' Hobbs?? My husband would be delighted and think I'd gone all 'gourmet' on him if I served him this for a special dinner...:confused1::lol:


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## ccarriee (Sep 24, 2009)

Hobbs, I meant to say, I would be interested in seeing a boneless recipe 

Would you please be able to explain what you're supposed to do with the 'easy Barf' product sold by Lilly's Bar? and have you ever used it? The best translation I can get is still rather confusing, so I don't understand if it's a premix or can be added straight to the bowl, and whether or not it contains sufficient amounts of calcium and vit A. Persuading my cats to accept liver and offal is still a problem.

Also, does anyone else have experience using Felini Complete? is it a premix?

Sorry for being a pain.


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## ccarriee (Sep 24, 2009)

Oops, forgot to ask, would you agree with the fortain dosage as suggested by Lilly's Bar? they say 1/2 tsp per day for a 5kg cat which sounds like rather a lot. And am I right in thinking that the disparity between the brewers yeast dosage that you are suggesting in your recipe (which would appear to be a little under 0.3g per day) and the massive 1/2 tsp daily dosage suggested by Lilly's Bar is down to the meat sources in your recipe already containing a good quantity of vit B? Just want to make sure because my maths is rubbish.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Hobbs...what kind of digital scales do you use for measuring these small quantities, mine are pretty rubbish and I want to get a better set.


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

I have got a pocket scale Tomopol 100g/0.01g one. Got that in Germany for ten euro or so. Amazon sell a similar American Weigh Signature Series Black AWS-100 Digital Pocket Scale, 100 by 0.01 G for £8 or 9 pounds I think.


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## ccarriee (Sep 24, 2009)

hobbs2004 said:


> I have all three products here and could send you the equivalent portion of each, if you want to try them first. (Would need to double check that easybarf is still in date)


My apologies, only just noticed your reply. I've placed an order with Lilly's Bar minus easybarf which ought to last about a month, but I appreciate for your offer. I wanted to research all other options since this supplement business has not been going well. I would prefer to continue using each supplement separately, but I might be forced to give this method up! finicky little buggers



hobbs2004 said:


> Just got my trusted real calculator out and my barf calculator tells me that for a 5kg cat being fed pork you need 1.6g of fortain per day, which is a little more than 1/2 teaspoon (if according to them a level teaspoon is 2.5g)


Well, Bettie weighs 5kg and Johnny 7kg. Don't know how much the fortain dosage would vary between them, or between different meats, but at the moment they are fed mostly chicken and turkey, with some pork (never more than a quarter of their overall diet). Rabbit, lamb and beef only occassionally because Bettie isn't keen. Guess I'll use 1.6g for Bettie and a little more for Johnny.



hobbs2004 said:


> 1/2 teaspoon of brewer's yeast strikes me as a little much. I guess the thinking is that you cannot overdose on a vit b complex but .... Just had a quick google and there are others who recommend an even higher daily dose: The Tree House Humane Society recommends a dose of 1 tsp. of brewer's yeast.
> 
> To be fair, I sprinkle some additional brewer's yeast on my cat's food; just because the like it.


Since neither cat is keen on brewers yeast, I'll just add as much as they will accept. Thank you 

btw, you mentioned earlier in this thread that your recipe would require more lamb liver than ox or chicken... if I were able to get hold of heart from another animal, such as pig or rabbit, then how would it compare? What I mean to say is, is there much variation or is it only lamb liver that's significantly lower in vit A? Perhaps I'm not looking properly but I can't find this information anywhere.


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## peecee (Jun 28, 2010)

Hi,

I haven't been on the forum for some time and have just come across this raw recipe -it looks great. I am currently raw feeding but I would like to try this but would like to ask a couple of questions. (which i hope arent too sill!)

a couple of months back, my cat had problems with gingivitis. I put her on Plaque Off and it has really worked. As the Plaque off has seaweed and iodine would it make sense to leave out the kelp supplement and just continue adding the plaque off as usual?

My cat loves rabbit so I often buy the wild rabbit chunks as well as the offal pack from Woldsway. Could i substiute 1000g of rabbit for the lamb with the rabbit chunks and use some of the offal from Woldsway offal pack? Or do I get some in bone rabbit?

She also loves raw eggs so I give her half a beat up egg a couple of times per week. Would doing this throw the nutritional value of this recipe off?

Can anyone suggest a suitable grinder that is reaonably priced that will grind bone?

Thanks for all your help.


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

peecee said:


> Hi,
> 
> I haven't been on the forum for some time and have just come across this raw recipe -it looks great. I am currently raw feeding but I would like to try this but would like to ask a couple of questions. (which i hope arent too sill!)
> 
> ...


Hiya and welcome back peecee! TBH, I would just get their rabbit chunks with bone in and offal. The only thing I would be inclined to add would be some more heart.


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## peecee (Jun 28, 2010)

hobbs2004 said:


> Hiya and welcome back peecee! TBH, I would just get their rabbit chunks with bone in and offal. The only thing I would be inclined to add would be some more heart.


Thanks, Hobbs. Would adding an egg one or two times a week to either of these mixtures be too much of vit A or anything else?

Any suggestions of grinders that are known to be reliable?


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

peecee said:


> Thanks, Hobbs. Would adding an egg one or two times a week to either of these mixtures be too much of vit A or anything else?
> 
> Any suggestions of grinders that are known to be reliable?


No, I shouldn't think so Peecee.

Re the grinder, PP is the best one to ask as she has one that grinds through chicken thighs and still starts up the next time!


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Amazon.co.uk: kenwood mg510 meat grinder

Still going strong!


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## peecee (Jun 28, 2010)

Thanks for that! I've looked it up and has some good reviews. will try it soon.


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## fadeaway (Aug 15, 2011)

*rezzes thread*
This is a good one!


1000g lamb meat ------------------------------------or any other meat, beef, chicken with skin, duck, rabbit, venison
500g lamb breast (together that is 50% meat)
250g lamb heart (8.3%)
250g lamb kidney (8.3%)
etc.

Is there a reason lamb is used so much?
Why is lamb breast specifically mentioned? Why not just 1500g of any meat?
And why lamb heart/kidney instead of other animal?


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

The lamb breast is specified because it is a very fatty cut and cats need fat. I think both the versions of the recipe state 'or any other meat' so it does not have to be lamb for the other ingredients.
Hobbs has a German calculator which automatically works out quantities needed for different meats....ie you might need more lambs liver than chicken liver because of different nutrient levels.


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## peecee (Jun 28, 2010)

hobbs2004 said:


> Ok, here is an example of a lamb-based boneless recipe
> 
> 1kg of lamb meat (shoulder, leg etc)
> 500g lamb breast
> ...


Happy New Year All!

I havent been around much the last few months as I've been ill but I'm up and running again. I've discovered my cat is not doing well on chicken and would like to make some recipes without it.

Based on Hobb's info earlier in this post, she mentioned that you would need to add more lamb's liver thnt chicken so if I wanted to substitute the chicken liver in this recipe for lambs liver, would 300g of lamb's liver be ok?

Also Hobbs, would it be possible to use your calculator for a similar recipe for beef ? Thanks ever so much if you could. I'm using the bone in packs from Woldsway with thier offal as you suggested.

Thanks


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## Mici (Nov 13, 2011)

Great!

I want to give it a try and see if my kitties will eat this


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

peecee said:


> Happy New Year All!
> 
> I havent been around much the last few months as I've been ill but I'm up and running again. I've discovered my cat is not doing well on chicken and would like to make some recipes without it.
> 
> ...


Hey peecee, good to hear that you are feeling better. A happy new year to you. Hope it will be a good one.

Re the liver, I have started deviated from my calculator. Instead I use enough liver to be 5% of the overall amount, regardless of the type of liver I use. However, I also use different types of liver whenever I make up a new batch.

Will do a beef one and pm you.


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## peecee (Jun 28, 2010)

Thanks very much Hobbs. Really appreciated


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## raggie doll (Sep 16, 2011)

OMG that must cost a fortune


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

raggie doll said:


> OMG that must cost a fortune


Actually it is cheaper than you think


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## peecee (Jun 28, 2010)

raggie doll said:


> OMG that must cost a fortune


Agree with Hobbs. It can be cheaper than feeding wet food. Offal and heart are very cheap cuts of meat and for the muscle meat, you certainly do not have to go for the most expensive cuts. Chicken breast for example besides being low in taurine and fat, it also very expensive. Thighs and legs are much cheaper.

This weekend, I got 1 kg of lamb heart for £2.00, 500g of lamb kidney for £1.40, 500g of lamb's liver for £1.20. This wasn't was usual butcher so I could probably get this cheaper.

Addmittedly the initial costs of getting the supplements might be a bit expensive, but you are using such small amounts, they last a while.


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## raggie doll (Sep 16, 2011)

:lol: it does sound good however for some reason in my area everything is a rip off and the only butchers near me is a halal one and they don't seem to understand what are the different parts of meat but to be honest I'm not great at handling raw food so probably wouldn't work for me but sounds like it does wonders for some


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Actually, a halal butcher can be a real boon for raw feeding a they sell lots of _interesting_ bits such as chicken hearts, gizzards, lungs etc.


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## raggie doll (Sep 16, 2011)

Paddypaws said:


> Actually, a halal butcher can be a real boon for raw feeding a they sell lots of _interesting_ bits such as chicken hearts, gizzards, lungs etc.


lol just not mine


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

I just worked up the maths on the wet food mine get and it's costing about $5/lb, whereas chicken breasts at the grocery store are $1.99, and they're the most expensive cut--these are the boneless, skinless kind. So, chicken is definitely cheaper, and I figure if I throw in pork or beef or even fish occasionally, even if it's $5/lb, I'm still coming out ahead. 

So, I'm really excited to get rolling on this and I have book marked this thread! In sadder news I got a huge food processor for Christmas, but when I plugged it in, nothing happened, so I have to wait to exchange it before I can start really going on this. It looks like it might be able to hack up chicken wings, or at least the end bits, which would be really nice to be able to add.


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## idharam (Jan 2, 2012)

hobbs2004 said:


> Not only is life too short to skin, the skin also contains some essential fat. I never buy skinless meat when I have the option to get it with skin on. Otherwise you need to find another fat source - lamb breast is great if your cat eats lamb.
> 
> Anyhow, here is a potential "easy" recipe
> 
> ...


It is very good
Thanks for sharing this.


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

Only just found this thread from a current link :thumbup1:

Boneless version



Hobbs said:


> 56g chicken liver (note that different livers contain different levels of Vit A so it will not always be the 56g)


If I wanted to use different types of liver, how much would I use for a boneless receipe. - sorry to be a pain.

As I chunk and not mince the 3.4g of salmon doesn't seem much, there would only be a tiny amount in each daily carton.

Also I can't seem to find dicalciumphosphate on the interwebby


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

Sorry bumpity bump


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Cookieandme said:


> Only just found this thread from a current link :thumbup1:
> 
> Boneless version
> 
> ...


Sorry, didn't see this.

With liver, just ignore the given quantity and different types and use 5% of the overall amount. Why complicate things unnecessarily.

Yup, it isn't a lot of salmon. I also chunk and don't mince but I finely chop the salmon to spread it around more in my batch

Yup, dicalciumphosphate is perhaps most easily found on barf supply sites. It is easiest to feed bones. However, if you want some then pm me your address and I pop a little dicalciumphosphate in the post to you.


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

Ready, Steady, Go.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Oh, how exciting! Your first batch of fully home made? Can't wait to hear if she like it.....


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

Paddypaws said:


> Oh, how exciting! Your first batch of fully home made? Can;t wait to hear if she like it.....


Not made yet, but all set for the weekend. Looking forward to it


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

I read in Hobbs' recipes that she recommends lamb breast for the fat. 

I assume the fat gives cats energy, which is good of course, but I am puzzled as to how cats ever got by with so little fat in their 'natural' diet? I mean there is hardly any fat on a mouse or a rabbit, and almost none at all on a bird


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## cookiemom (Jun 23, 2011)

chillminx said:


> I read in Hobbs' recipes that she recommends lamb breast for the fat.
> 
> I assume the fat gives cats energy, which is good of course, but I am puzzled as to how cats ever got by with so little fat in their 'natural' diet? I mean there is hardly any fat on a mouse or a rabbit, and almost none at all on a bird


I often wonder this as well, my left brain occasionally demands that I do some research, however my right brain is entirely satisfied that feeding near to nature is best, so yes the wild rabbits in summer are lower in fat and v low in saturated fats and in winter are much higher in fat, all wild meats I think are high in omega 3 fats, definately the rabbit makes the cats fur lovely and soft! The cats also refuse lumps of hard fat as found on lamb heart etc, curious.


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

I have to admit that before I read the easy recipe I hadnt been adding fat to the mix I am currently making. On Saurday I made a batch of duck and added about 120grm of lamb breast to it. I don't know if it was too rich for Cookie but on Sunday I got up and she had been sick. 

She has been fine since, but just a little concerned it was the extra fat or just the duck and lamb was too rich.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

I find my cats can only cope with very little fat in their diet, otherwise they vomit. Likewise with offal -- 5% is all they can manage without getting diarrhoea.


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## AlexTurley (Oct 30, 2011)

quick question 
im really sorry if its already been asked  

if your cat cannot take anything fish wise how can u supplement the D3 was it? 

and i dont mean to sound silly but - i tried heffin on a chicken wing on fb they suggested to get him started on bone - but he looked at me like i was crazy - but with the bones with raw they wont harm the animal or splinter will they?

thanks


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## peecee (Jun 28, 2010)

Cookieandme said:


> I have to admit that before I read the easy recipe I hadnt been adding fat to the mix I am currently making. On Saurday I made a batch of duck and added about 120grm of lamb breast to it. I don't know if it was too rich for Cookie but on Sunday I got up and she had been sick.
> 
> She has been fine since, but just a little concerned it was the extra fat or just the duck and lamb was too rich.


Duck is naturally a very fat meat in itself. Perhaps adding another very fatty part of the lamb is just a bit too much? So it might be a tad rich indeed.

I usually add additional fat if I have rabbit which is naturally a lean meat or chicken without any skin. This is just my personal opinion so I wouldn't think of adding fat, or at least as much as lamb breast contains to something like duck. Just my opinion plus one is my cats is very big!!!


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

peecee said:


> Duck is naturally a very fat meat in itself. Perhaps adding another very fatty part of the lamb is just a bit too much? So it might be a tad rich indeed.
> 
> I usually add additional fat if I have rabbit which is naturally a lean meat or chicken without any skin. This is just my personal opinion so I wouldn't think of adding fat, or at least as much as lamb breast contains to something like duck. Just my opinion plus one is my cats is very big!!!


Absolutely. I actually quite regret having posted these recipes up but I particularly regret using a lamb recipe as the poster child so to speak. I think I might just edit that recipe a little now.

Contrary to the recipe I posted, when I use lamb I tend to get fatty cuts anyhow and I wouldn't add any more fat to it. However, as peecee says, I would add lamb or lamb breast to meats that are low in fat (chicken without skin, turkey without skin, rabbit, some cuts of beef). I also tend to mix game with rabbit.

And duck, particularly when used with the skin, is a fatty meat so I personally wouldn't add any more lamb to it.

Sorry for any confusion.


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

Yes I admit I should have used some common sense. Basically I bought a duck, took it off the bone and removed the skin. I need 765grms for my 900grm batch as the duck was only about 600grm I added the lamb breast to make up the batch. I agree even without any duck skin, it was very rich so lesson learnt. 

I'll only add lamb breast to very lean meats in future? Just my inexperience really. She has been fine since and rather than having 1 "flavour" during the day I have given her a mixture, so she isn't having too much of the duck mix.


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

Just been to the butchers and I am going to make a batch from
Scratch this weekend, I usually use the Feline Instincts premix but I now have all the supplements to give it ago using the recipe in the proceeding pages. 

I bought, turkey thigh, lamb breast, heart, kidney and liver for the grand total of £13.65 , even if I add a couple of pounds for the supplements which I think is on the high side, the batch should make enough for a month which means it is going to cost about 60p per day


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## anotheruser (Aug 17, 2011)

Sorry to give this a great big bump but home made raw is back in my radar again.

*1)* When going to the butchers, do you just ask for "lamb breast"? I would have thought this is expensive as lamb tends to be, so I didn't know if you asked for "any offcuts you don't want/can't sell".

*2)* If I am not keen on purchasing a grinder, I can just supplement with egg shell powder or bonemeal?

*3)* In order to create different flavours, do I just replace the 1Kg of meat with a different type? But still add the 500g of lamb breast as a form of bulking agent?

*4)* If I find another source of vitamin D3, can I forget about the salmon?

*5)* Are there any other heart and kidney that I can use? Or was the first recipe just an example of a lamb flavoured batch? (So if I was doing a chicken batch, I'd use the same amount of chicken heart and kidney, same with beef and rabbit?)

Thank you for reading.


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

Maybe I am too shy but I don't ask for off cuts, I guess the whole point of it for me is I know what I am putting in her food. 

I have started to place an order with the butcher that way he doesn't have to bone out the breast while I am there. So yes I ask for 500grms of boneless breast - unrolled. Normally a butcher will roll and tie a lamb breast. The piece I bought last week was 598grms and was £5.38. 

When I made the boneless version I used bonemeal powder but I am sure it made her a little constipated. But I do add the eggshell powder as mentioned in the recipe to balance the ca/ph. 

I just vary the 1kg main meat, the last batch was rabbit and venison, but have used beef, pork and turkey thigh. 

I use lamb heart, kidney and liver because it's easy and readily available. 

(I hope I am doing it right)


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Sainsburys sell a rolled lamb breast in their basics range which is very cheap. I tend not to use it these days as I find my cats are not keen on lamb at all. I tend to use duck fat, goose fat or chicken skin.


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## anotheruser (Aug 17, 2011)

Excited to have found a butchers that sells all the meats required.
Now to get those supplements!

I'm going to make two batches, although now I wish I'd have kept those NI containers to put the mix into now for freezing... I guess I could put it in freezer bags which would give me more room.

Decided to start off without the bone-in as I don't have a grinder. If it works out cheaper and the kitties like it then I don't mind investing 


Should I be too worried about blood dripping into the mix or is this good?
Can I use pheasant as the main meat? If so, what would I need to adjust?
The butchers does provide lamb heart and kidney but could I use another animal heart and kidney instead? I know it states you can in the non-bone in recipe but would this be true for both?
For the non-bone recipe, what are the other values for liver that I would need for different meats?
In the same recipe, it states Wheatgerm oil, is this necessary or can I still use 6 vitamin e drops?
Reading the thread, it's suggested I just use 5% of the total amount for liver, so that is 150g (for the 3Kg batch). Is that right? It seems a lot more than the suggested amounts.
Lastly, why is there a significant drop in the amount of salmon I would need for the non-bone recipe?

Sorry for bumping :/


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

We need Hobbs to answer those specific questions.
But....I do want to plug the use of the meat grinder (Kenwood MG510 or Andrew James one on Amazon)
The last few batches I have made up I have bought whole chickens (they prefer Waitrose free range  which are currently 25% off), I save some of the breast quarters for myself, then chop a good amount of the rest of the meaty bits. The rest of the carcass goes through the grinder and supplements are added to this slurry. I half fill a box with this mix, then top with chunks of chicken meat, chicken hearts and pigs kidney.
This works out at about £1.50 per tub....cheaper than NI, but also really good quality.


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## jo-pop (May 27, 2011)

I'm just really confused... :crazy:
Partly being pregnant and having not had a full nigth sleep for 10 weeks thanks to my darling son.
I am trying to work out if making my own raw is do-able and it is just not sinking in... 
Maybe I need to look at this another day


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## anotheruser (Aug 17, 2011)

You should look now, perhaps we can share our experiences together?

I have found a manual grinder so will see if that does anything. If it does work out it'll be a great test to check on costing and if I can manage to actually do it nicely. If it turns out okay then I'll buy an electric grinder (purely for speed).
I've already purchased two large plastic smart price bowls, so there's no turning back now!


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

:can of worms: see you shouldn't listen to me 

I could be wrong but I don't see a problem with a little blood - sometimes there is a little in various meats I have used.

Being a bit of a numpty I have stuck to lamb hearts, kidney and liver.

The recipe does state wheatgerm oil or Vit E drops - I use wheatgerm oil from ebay

I bought some 12oz mircowavable tubs from ebay and batch into 300grms but I could get a bit more in each pot.

I made rabbit and venison last week, which she has barely touched this week, looks at it and walks away  don't know if her teeth are hurting or she is being a bit of a madam.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

A problem with blood?? Nooooo, they _love_ blood, extra in fact.....so I use Fortain to make a nice gravy
Pet Supplies, Pet Food, Dog Food, Cat Food and Pet Accessories at Zooplus
especially if I am using a dry meat.


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

Paddypaws said:


> A problem with blood?? Nooooo, they _love_ blood, extra in fact.....so I use Fortain to make a nice gravy
> Pet Supplies, Pet Food, Dog Food, Cat Food and Pet Accessories at Zooplus
> especially if I am using a dry meat.


I could never find it when I did a search, how much do you use added to how much water.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Cookieandme said:


> I could never find it when I did a search, how much do you use added to how much water.


I can't say I am too exact about it. 
If I have a 450g tub of minced wild rabbit defrosting, I add about 1/2 teaspoon of taurine powder and maybe 1/4 tsp of Fortain and a good splash or two of water. The Fortain seems not to mix or dissolve at first but if I leave this in the fridge overnight it has turned to a nice bloody gravy next day. 
The cats seem to love it. 
It looks pretty pricey to buy but lasts for AGES and of course plugs one of those gaps in our attempt to replicate live prey....butchered meat has been bled whereas a live mouse has not!:nono:


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Cookieandme said:


> I could never find it when I did a search, how much do you use added to how much water.


Zooplus uk sells it at a hideously inflated price. Have a look around the Tatzenladen website or Lilly'sBar, both of which sell the big tub for much less money.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

hobbs2004 said:


> Zooplus uk sells it at a hideously inflated price. Have a look around the Tatzenladen website or Lilly'sBar, both of which sell the big tub for much less money.


I think it was quite a bit cheaper on the German zooplus site too. It is on special offer right now though at £13.99 and it does last forever!


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Paddypaws said:


> I think it was quite a bit cheaper on the German zooplus site too. It is on special offer right now though at £13.99 and it does last forever!


Fair dos but even the "special" offer is dearer than the 9.99 euro (ie. roughly £8) the 250g tub costs. As I said, for whatever reason zooplus mark this up ridiculously.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Hobbs....now we have the very real pleasure of having you back online at least for a while........can we prevail upon you to add to this thread and give us a couple more 'fixed' recipes using different meats such as pork or turkey etc?

It does seem that more and more people are willing to make the leap into making their own raw food, 5000 viewings for this thread alone, so it would be fantastic to be able to refer to properly calculated recipes.

Pretty please?


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

Paddypaws said:


> Hobbs....now we have the very real pleasure of having you back online at least for a while........can we prevail upon you to add to this thread and give us a couple more 'fixed' recipes using different meats such as pork or turkey etc?
> 
> Pretty please?


opps should I be modifying the recipe for different base meats


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Paddypaws said:


> Hobbs....now we have the very real pleasure of having you back online at least for a while........can we prevail upon you to add to this thread and give us a couple more 'fixed' recipes using different meats such as pork or turkey etc?
> 
> It does seem that more and more people are willing to make the leap into making their own raw food, 5000 viewings for this thread alone, so it would be fantastic to be able to refer to properly calculated recipes.
> 
> Pretty please?


Well, the only problem is that I am actually infringing on copyrights by doing that. In all honesty, I shouldn't have posted those recipes in the first place. Shame they haven't translated it into English yet.

CaM, there are some subtle differences according to the calculator I use depending on the meats you put into the equation but at the end of the day it all evens itself out.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Ah well, that's a shame....don't want to cause legal problems though!


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## anotheruser (Aug 17, 2011)

Cookieandme said:


> The recipe does state wheatgerm oil or Vit E drops - I use wheatgerm oil from ebay.


Being something like this?
Just making sure as it seems to be a massage oil too :blink:

Shame about the recipes, although unless you're copying word for word out of a book then I would have thought it would be okay to give a guide here as you'd be paraphrasing which isn't against the law 
Just worried as it is said that it's better to feed a wet diet than an incomplete raw diet, or does that only apply to the 80/10/10 or 80/10/5/5 that people go with?


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

That is "carrier" oil - i.e. massage oil.

IF you want to go down the wheat germ oil route (which is more expensive than using vit e drops) then how about something like this: Now Foods, Wheat Germ Oil, 16 fl oz (473 ml) | eBay

Strangely, wheat germ oil seems to be quite a rare and expensive commodity in the UK; much more easily, cheaply and widely had on the mainland. I wonder why that is.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Buy Biocare Vitasorb E 15ml Bottle For £7.95 - Discount Supplements 


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## anotheruser (Aug 17, 2011)

Although going from the above, the wheatgerm oil is a lot cheaper:

WG Oil: 473ml / £13
Vit Es: 15ml / £8 :S

Will probably just end up getting some abroad.


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

anotheruser said:


> Although going from the above, the wheatgerm oil is a lot cheaper:
> 
> WG Oil: 473ml / £13
> Vit Es: 15ml / £8 :S
> ...


No, not at all. With the vit e drops you only need to use a small number of drops at a time to get the vit e amount in the food; which means that your 15 ml bottle will last you ages. In comparison, to get the same amount of vit e concentration in the food you will need to use a lot more of the wheat germ oil.

To give you an idea, I bought a small bottle of Allcura vit e drops at the beginning of the year and though I am making raw food for 3.5 cats I still have some left.


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

This is the one I get - hope it's OK 250ml Pure Wheatgerm Oil Carrs Supreme Gold Birds Racing Pigeons Bird Fertility | eBay


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

hobbs2004 said:


> No, not at all. With the vit e drops you only need to use a small number of drops at a time to get the vit e amount in the food; which means that your 15 ml bottle will last you ages. In comparison, to get the same amount of vit e concentration in the food you will need to use a lot more of the wheat germ oil.
> 
> To give you an idea, I bought a small bottle of Allcura vit e drops at the beginning of the year and though I am making raw food for 3.*5 cats* I still have some left.


Which half do you half - left, right, head or bottom end. lol! Sorry I had funny images in my head!


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

spid said:


> Which half do you half - left, right, head or bottom end. lol! Sorry I had funny images in my head!


Lol! You forgot top or bottom!


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## anotheruser (Aug 17, 2011)

So apart from the meat, here is a small shopping list:

*Brewers Yeast* - eBay (454g).
_I did originally look at Tatzenladen but then the eBay version works out cheaper._

*Vitamin E* - Discount Supplements (15ml bottle).

*Seaweed Powder* - eBay (1000g).
_Again, I was looking at Tatzenladen but 1Kg of that particular powder would cost about £35. However I'm not sure if the eBay version is edible as it's listed under "Aromatherapy" but the description suggests you can use it in pet food._
But I am a bit put off with the eBay version as it lists a lot of things which Tatz doesn't.

Out of interest, do the above ever go out of date somewhat? That's a hell of a lot of seaweed powder but I guess it's like flour and lasts forever?

I just want to get the best value for money, whether buying abroad or in the UK so if that means buying some which will last 3 years, then I don't mind.

And finally, the last question before I plunge in... these grinders, they really do chop up chicken wing / thigh bones?
On a side note, my experiment with the handheld one didn't work, but to be fair the mincer was over 30 years old!


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

I'll check out my s

Opps don't try and use the iPhone while supposed to be working 

Just checked the seaweed powder which has a best before date of Dec 2012.


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

I personally wouldn't buy 1kg of seaweed. You only need a few grams at a time and I do believe that seaweed powder does have a use-by-date. I never buy more than 50g or 100g at a time and that lasts me for a while.

Have you looked at Lilly´s Bar - Alles für Ihre Katze und Ihren Hund: Taurin, easy B.a.r.F, Ulmenrinde, Slippery Elm Bark, Bierhefe, Nahrungsergänzungen, Rohfütterung for your supplements? A "proper" barf shop.


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## anotheruser (Aug 17, 2011)

Hmm.

I guess I just get highly annoyed when being charged £12 to ship just a few items so I'd look to get a few at the same time to save on postage.

Even more a shame that these items aren't really sold in the UK. I see why many people turn to pre-mixes. Will give this a go and if I decide it's too complicated, I'll make use of the grinder at some point to make burgers


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Well, you don't have to use supplements at all. Premixes (apart from Felini Complete) aren't more easily available or cheaper


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

I bought premixed to start with, I also recently bought another 2 packs but it still adds about £3.50 to each batch of food, as I purchase from the US. 

When I bought my suppliments I bought several plus a little weighing scales, so I didn't think the carriage costs was too bad - certainly not when compared to shipping from the US.


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Not sure whether you saw but you can get seaweed powder on zooplus: Great deals on pet nutrition and supplements at zooplus: Grau Seaweed Meal

zooplus de has got a barf section: Frostfutter & BARF für Katzen günstig kaufen bei zooplus


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## kr00t0n (May 10, 2012)

Gah! Winston has now gone off all the NI flavours apart from rabbit, which he wolfs down with glee.

I only have 4 days of rabbit left, and NI are out of stock 

This has prompted me to give some Woldsway minces with supplements a try, making rabbit based mixes with chicken or lamb.

I'm in no position to source whole meat as we don't have a grinder and can't do the chunk method as Winston flings them all over the place (we are in a flat, so no utility room or similar area where raw meat can be flung about).

Has anyone had any experience going down the WW mince route?

I know it will be pricey, but he can't be bothered with any tinned wet now, so rabbit is the only option.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I quite like WW but am not convinced they are complete - so feed them as a 20% of the diet thing. They are a different texture from NI and that makes a change. Certainly worth a bash.


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## kr00t0n (May 10, 2012)

I planned on adding all the bits and bobs to make it complete 

How different is it?

One of the things I'm guessing Winston like about rabbit NI is that it is pretty much blood free, whereas the other flavours all get really bloody after a while.


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## Camron (Nov 16, 2012)

Really nice talking about Easy raw recipe, and also really nice above comments, guys, i also want to say something about Easy raw recipe, guys, before read this thread, i have no proper information about raw recipe, but after read this thread, i have some proper information about raw recipe, it's really nice guys, keep it up ...


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## kr00t0n (May 10, 2012)

hobbs2004 said:


> Well, the only problem is that I am actually infringing on copyrights by doing that. In all honesty, I shouldn't have posted those recipes in the first place. Shame they haven't translated it into English yet.
> 
> CaM, there are some subtle differences according to the calculator I use depending on the meats you put into the equation but at the end of the day it all evens itself out.


Where could one purchase the book and/or calculator?


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## KoolK (May 21, 2018)

Deleted post


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## KoolK (May 21, 2018)

I have a few questions 

1. *Do you need supplements?*
If so which ones. Some posts say no, others say they include vitamin E & B, fish oil capsules, taurine, and iodine salt.
Some users have added eggs, others say not to. What meats should you not add eggs to?

I'm worried I won't meet the healthy feeding requirements that are in standard wet food cans I buy from Zooplus.

2. *What's the difference between dicing and mince?*
My snowy is fine with mincing and small diced meat too. Is one better than the other / safer?

3. *In relation to bones* (from chicken wings), I'm worried about choking.
Some say their cats leave the big parts, others say they chop into small pieces and others say they make it into a powder.
Which is safer / better?

Can you make buy bone powder instead of using chicken wings etc?

4. As I've read by this thread, *you need a 80,10,10 (5% liver) diet.*
How do you work this out?
How do I work out how much my cat will need a day (some say they feel 3-4% of their cats weight, how do you work this out)?

Sorry I'm confused 

5. *Can you buy the meats from your usual supermarket?*
I read on here Morrisons chops some of their meats, so you don't have to, and the other supermarket I'd probably use is Asda.

6. *Also, the horror stories I've read on raw food* (_bacteria, doesn't have enough nutrients _etc).
Is there anything I need to be wary / mindful of if I go ahead with this?

Thank you & sorry for all the Q's!
A very informative post !

*For reference: *Snowy is turning 3 this year and eats around about 250g of complete wet food (from Zooplus) every day.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

If I was making the balancing myself I would probably want to use at least two recipes, I just like to keep a variety. As it is, I do use two "pre-mixes". Alnutrin, which is only available in the US, and EZcomplete, which does ship to the UK.

You might find this helpful: Balanced raw recipe from Raw Feeding for IBD Group

http://www.rawfeedingforibdcats.org/balanced-raw-food-recipe-with-nutritional-analysis.html

And the links to more info on raw feeding articles here

http://www.rawfeedingforibdcats.org/raw-feeding.html

As for mince/vs chunks, depends on the cat. Some cats prefer a variety, big chunks, small chunks, or mix it up, to keep them interested. You can figure it out as you go along. I have one who eats small chunks and another who has to have hers ground (I do it in my food processor) Jennie, who left me last year, preferred large chunks.

Go slow, ease into it. Figure it out as you go along. I've been raw feeding for 8 years, and the way I do it now, isn't at all the way I started. 

Good luck. You're going to love it!


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## KoolK (May 21, 2018)

lorilu said:


> If I was making the balancing myself I would probably want to use at least two recipes, I just like to keep a variety. As it is, I do use two "pre-mixes". Alnutrin, which is only available in the US, and EZcomplete, which does ship to the UK.
> 
> You might find this helpful: Balanced raw recipe from Raw Feeding for IBD Group
> 
> ...


I have heard in relation to pre-made supplements that sometimes you don't need to use them with certain meats since the meat itself has the necessity nutrients?

Have you always used pre-made supplements?

Also, is there any reason people add kidney ANS heart with the liver for the 10% offal?
Thought you only needed liver & one other offal meat?

Thanks!


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## KoolK (May 21, 2018)

lorilu said:


> If I was making the balancing myself I would probably want to use at least two recipes, I just like to keep a variety. As it is, I do use two "pre-mixes". Alnutrin, which is only available in the US, and EZcomplete, which does ship to the UK.
> 
> You might find this helpful: Balanced raw recipe from Raw Feeding for IBD Group
> 
> ...


Thank you for the links!

That's a whole load of supplements (vit B, D, E), taurine, kelp tablets (what are these?), Manganese (?)

Are these vitamins not naturally found in the raw meat?
I don't want to be feeding something that isn't 'necessary' if you get what I mean

Would appreciate any advice!


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

KoolK said:


> Thank you for the links!
> 
> That's a whole load of supplements (vit B, D, E), taurine, kelp tablets (what are these?), Manganese (?)
> 
> ...


A lot depends on the meat itself. How it was raised, how it was stored, and so on. Raw meat with organ and bone still cannot contain all the parts of, say, a mouse or a bird, that a cat would eat in it's entirety. Some people do feed a purely "Prey Model" raw with the 80/10/5/5 model. It takes a lot of work and knowledge to ensure balance I think. I can't advise on that method.

I feed a modified prey model only one day a week, for variety. I use muscle meat, 10% liver, egg shell calcium and taurine added to those meals. And egg yolk. But it is only one day a week. The other 6 days I use pre-mixes.

I can't answer the questions about that particular recipe, I don't use it, you would have to contact the creators/owners. They have a Facebook group you can join to ask questions.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

KoolK said:


> Also, is there any reason people add kidney ANS heart with the liver for the 10% offal?
> Thought you only needed liver & one other offal meat?


Heart is a muscle meat for the purposes of raw feeding. Liver is essential, and can be used as 10%, or 5 % liver and 5% other secreting organ.


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