# Ian Boyd CRUEL dog trainer, Glasgow



## kumho (Nov 14, 2014)

Hello,

I am new to this, I only just registered.

I am trying to find out if anyone in Glasgow or surrounding areas has ever been unfortunate enough to encounter a dog trainer called Ian Boyd?

He was recommended to my boyfriend and I by Jim Fraser (Jim Fraser | Dog training and obedience classes in Scotland). We had called him to ask about sessions for our aggressive 9 month old old english bulldog. (She is aggressive but through fear of strangers, keep that in mind). He was booked up for a couple weeks to he suggested Ian Boyb and supplied a phone number.

We thought we were in luck when Ian said he could come round the very next day and help us out as he could see it was a problem that had to be fixed quickly.

He arrived, put a choke chain on my poor puppy and DRAGGED her around, he leaned over her to try and frighten her and she jumped at him and broke the skin on his face. This seemed to just send him into a rage and he lifted her right off the ground to choke her. He dropped her down and she tried to get away, she was screaming in fear. It was at this point that I left the room. I was begining to cry and I was about to do something that I would have regretted (well, maybe regret). My boyfriend chucked him out. This was in a matter of minutes. It was horrific. I was shaking and I felt sick for the rest of the day.

Unfortunately I cant find any information on this guy. He seems to not exist. I contacted Jim Fraser to inform him that he had sent a lunatic to my home but he just reply with the usual hollow apology.

Please, if anyone has any info on this guy or has encountered him let me know.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Never heard of either of them, but I am afraid I would not be patronising anyone who openly stated they had great empathy with Cesar Millan.

I would have thought this would have been a warning sign to you to stay away from such a person or anyone they actually recommended?

Perhaps it might be an idea to channel your energies in locating a reputable trainer to help you and your dog rather than pursuing an incompetent individual?


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

"Who is the boss, you or your dog?
When a dog comes into the family group it will naturally try and place itself as high up the pecking order as possible.

Dogs are naturally pack animals and the owner must be the 'Pack leader'.

You must be firm and consistant at all time.
This is nearly always where people's problem lie."

Oh dear


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

I would be very concerned if a behaviourist used or recommended someone that used such methods and I would certainly make my feelings known if they tried that on any of my dogs.

I have never heard of him either and I don't wish to judge a persons ability on one feed back however any professional that writes such things on his webpage would immediately ring alarm bells in my book.

And lines such as *When a dog comes into the family group it will naturally try and place itself as high up the pecking order as possible* and *Jim trains the mind not the stomach. Why train a dog with titbits? What happens when you dont have a titbit?* shows a concerning lack of understanding of canines and how they learn.

J


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I think he was a service dog trainer


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

He was a security dog trainer..

Scottish dog whisper :hand: :hand: what a Pillock doesn't seem to have one formal qualification. Bloody annoys me too as having insured by the Kennel Club makes it look like the KC endorse him..


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Sorry had a bad time of it, but someone was doing this to your dog and you left the room???


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

Lexiedhb said:


> Sorry had a bad time of it, but someone was doing this to your dog and you left the room???


I read it as she left the room as upset but boyfriend was still there who sent the guy away. It's not like she stormed out and said do what you like to the dog. It does sound pretty upsetting.....


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2014)

kumho said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am new to this, I only just registered.
> 
> ...


May I ask why you are trying to find more information on Ian Boyd? 
Your puppy was screaming in fear/pain, the trainer was in a rage, and your boyfriend had to kick him out of your house. What more would you need to know?

After reading the website linked for the other trainer, I would not touch that that one with a 10 foot pole either.

So now you know that anyone who talks about Cesar Millan or pack leader/boss stuff is probably not your best bet. That should help you in your search for another trainer. Even better, maybe some PF members could recommend a good, credentialed behaviorist in your area? You and your poor pup will definitely need some guidance to undo this damage plus the fearful issues she had already.

You may want to read up on this site too, Fearfuldogs.com it will give you some ideas as to what to look for in a behaviorist, and what to avoid


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

in fairness I think I would try and find out more about him and try and get something done about him if I had ended up in that position. And I do believe in being a LOT firmer with dogs than some on here appear to be.


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2014)

Blitz said:


> in fairness I think I would try and find out more about him and try and get something done about him if I had ended up in that position. And I do believe in being a LOT firmer with dogs than some on here appear to be.


But what can be done? Until the industry is more regulated, he hasnt broken any laws has he? That trainer someone posted about who picked the spaniel up by the ears and hit him? Nothing happened to him either.

I suppose the only thing to do would be to find out if he is accredited or endorsed by any organization and if he is breaching any codes of conduct there, but otherwise, there is not much to do other than not employ trainers like him or people who recommend trainers like this.


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## Amelia66 (Feb 15, 2011)

No but she would be able to advise others and keep them from making the same mistake of thinking he can help your dog. Getting the word out to others who are uneducated on dog training would be a good thing.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

kumho said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am new to this, I only just registered.
> 
> ...


Its not an entirely out of the ordinary or uncommon name, so could possibly be a different Ian Boyd. There is though an Obdience judge called In Boyd on the Kennel club Judges list that hales from Scotland.

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/104402/obedience_judges_rr_yes_contact.pdf

He has been quite active Judging in obedience shows this year.

As said its not an unusual or uncommon name and possibly could be another Ian Boyd.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

He is using the KC logo on his website.

You need the approval from the KC to do this. I wonder if he has it?

Also, the insurance is not actually KC insurance. It's a company (Hiscox) who will provide the insurance. 

Please approach the KC and draw this to their attention. They will take action if they find he is using heir logo without their express approval.

I reported a local trainer for using KC materials on her website without permission and they took action to have her remove it


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

What a bar steward! Very worrying that he can practice as a "trainer"


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## LaceWing (Mar 18, 2014)

Years ago, going back sixty years, a dog trainer named Bill Koehler, Sr. used choke collars to train dogs. He was very successful. Other people short cut his training techniques and you end up with the dreaded choke and jerk method. He was sometimes brought dangerous aggressive dogs that were on the way to being PTS and asked to do something. He would work the dog and be firm and consistent. If this didn&#8217;t work, and we are talking about a dog that bites, he would use the choker to hang the dog. He reported it worked about half the time. On dogs that were dangerous and going to be PTS. Again, his technique was short cut by others and you have &#8216;trainers&#8217; who hang or helicopter a dog within minutes of meeting them.

I am not an advocate of using choke chains, I use treats, praise and occasionally clicker. I do know trainers who use the choker in the old way and are successful (still would not recommend it, though). I think it has a lot to do with the personality of the user. Ian Boyd has his own personal problems. I&#8217;m saying that even a trainer who trusts the choker would not have hanged your dog. Might give him a &#8216;check&#8217;, but not hang her.

Ask around for a clicker trainer.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

LaceWing said:


> Years ago, going back sixty years, a dog trainer named Bill Koehler, Sr. used choke collars to train dogs. He was very successful. Other people short cut his training techniques and you end up with the dreaded choke and jerk method. He was sometimes brought dangerous aggressive dogs that were on the way to being PTS and asked to do something. He would work the dog and be firm and consistent. If this didnt work, and we are talking about a dog that bites, he would use the choker to hang the dog. He reported it worked about half the time. On dogs that were dangerous and going to be PTS. Again, his technique was short cut by others and you have trainers who hang or helicopter a dog within minutes of meeting them.
> 
> I am not an advocate of using choke chains, I use treats, praise and occasionally clicker. I do know trainers who use the choker in the old way and are successful (still would not recommend it, though). I think it has a lot to do with the personality of the user. Ian Boyd has his own personal problems. Im saying that even a trainer who trusts the choker would not have hanged your dog. Might give him a check, but not hang her.
> 
> Ask around for a clicker trainer.


I first got involved in dog training in the 60s and check chains were the only recommended training collar. But they have always been called check not choke chains because their correct use is to check the dog with whatever strength that particular dog needs for a correction, never to choke it and never to be severe with it except in exceptional cases.
There is nothing at all wrong with a check chain in the right hands and they work in pretty much the same way as a correctly fitted half check.

I would say that anyone that calls it a choker has no idea how it should be used.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Blitz said:


> I would say that anyone that calls it a choker has no idea how it should be used.


I call them choke chains! Not because I don't know how they are supposed to be used, it's because that is what the vast majority of people that use them do with it


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

What a horrible experience. But as Ouesi said, you now know to avoid such trainers who spout off about dominance, pack leaders, and asserting your authority etc. A good place to start a search for a reputable behaviourist and/or trainer is here - APBC Members by Region | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors and here - Welcome to APDT - Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK


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## KathyM (Jul 30, 2008)

Many moons ago I was a member of a group called Dogchat which had a mix of different schools of thought, but where there were a couple of very outspoken members of this kind of training. I recognise the name Ian Boyd frim my time there, whether he was a member or just mentioned I don't recall. That wasn't much use was it?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Another very good source of reputable instructors is the KCAI scheme

List of Accredited Instructors â¢ The Kennel Club


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Its not an old school thing i was told toeuse a choke chain on mine when i first got him by 2 women with very biddable dogs, who thought harnesses were the reason for all bad behavior.. Our trainer tried it once, dex climbed back up the lead at said man..... he never handled him again, despite having a life times worth of experience with " difficult dogs". Why because saw the reaction of a dog i had had for 4 weeks, and never wanted to see it again.......


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2014)

There are still tons of people who support this sort of training. Just look at the following folks like CM has...

For me, my time and resources are limited, therefore Id rather spend my time supporting trainers who use humane, effective methods, and owners who are willing to learn those methods. 

There is a trainer very local to me who is about like this. I have personal experience with her, I know what she does to dogs, Ive dealt with some of the dogs who washed from her program, and I know she is in no way shape or form humane in her training methods. Yet she has a loyal, loyal following and is very well-known in the obedience world. Not just here, but nationally (and I believe she does seminars internationally too). 

I can try to shoo everyone away from her program, or I can just champion her competitors who are humane in their methods and make sure my own dogs are an endorsement of kinder methods. 
People tend to listen to you better when youre talking someone up. Bashing, no matter how justified often sounds like, well, bashing - especially if that person is successful.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

ouesi said:


> There are still tons of people who support this sort of training. Just look at the following folks like CM has...
> 
> For me, my time and resources are limited, therefore Id rather spend my time supporting trainers who use humane, effective methods, and owners who are willing to learn those methods.
> 
> ...


This is so true.

And something I must try to remember!

It can look petty and vindictive if you bash someone's "different" methods, but because we all want what's best for dogs, it's so hard to stand back.

As you have said, he best advert for humane training is the happy dogs and owners produced.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

sounds awful, I hope you find someone good. Sadly they do exist, G3 dogs in Cambridge openly promotes other horrible collars and did have an account on PF until recently. I got taken in by them and walked out (though they make no promises on their public facing ads and I didn't know they were on FB). Mistakes get made sadly whilst it's an unregulated industry, what matters is how you get over it


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## Tykey (Oct 26, 2014)

It seems like you only have to mention CM on here and one section of people jump up and down in anger. I watched him and his dogs in his early programs, and there were some good things he did. I'm told he now throttles dogs into unconciousness (or something akin to that).
I've not seen his recent series, so maybe he's turned to cruelty as a method, I've no idea on this, because I've never seen him do that.
The one thing I really learned from him is that dog training should use calm assertiveness with the dog. That way the dog knows his place, and looks to the trainer calmly waiting to hear his next instruction. Calm Assertiveness can and should be kind, but never cruel.


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2014)

Tykey said:


> It seems like you only have to mention CM on here and one section of people jump up and down in anger. I watched him and his dogs in his early programs, and there were some good things he did. I'm told he now throttles dogs into unconciousness (or something akin to that).
> I've not seen his recent series, so maybe he's turned to cruelty as a method, I've no idea on this, because I've never seen him do that.
> The one thing I really learned from him is that dog training should use calm assertiveness with the dog. That way the dog knows his place, and looks to the trainer calmly waiting to hear his next instruction. Calm Assertiveness can and should be kind, but never cruel.


This thread isnt about CM, and no one is jumping up and down in anger 

Dogs dont need to know their place, and calm assertiveness doesnt instruct the dog in anything. What is calm assertiveness anyway - is it even quantifiable?

I have no need for my dogs to know their place. I simply need for us to have a clear system of communication, and a relationship where they are sufficiently motivated to cooperate. 
My dogs and I are partners and as partners we have accomplished far more than any dog Ive seen out of the CM program or any similar programs. And Im not even a professional!


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Tykey said:


> The one thing I really learned from him is that dog training should use calm assertiveness with the dog. That way the dog knows his place, and looks to the trainer calmly waiting to hear his next instruction. Calm Assertiveness can and should be kind, but never cruel.


No dear, you are confusing 'calm and assertive' with trust...With TRUST the dog looks to the trainer for their next instruction


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## Tykey (Oct 26, 2014)

StormyThai said:


> No dear, you are confusing 'calm and assertive' with trust...With TRUST the dog looks to the trainer for their next instruction


No I'm not confused at all, how do you think dogs develop trust in us, they aren't born trusting humans, they need to develop it in their early lives via training. That's where, IMHO, the calm assertiveness comes in. I'm sure we couldn't expect training to go well if we behave in the opposite way, which would be something like manic, excitable and grovelling.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Tykey said:


> No I'm not confused at all, how do you think dogs develop trust in us, they aren't born trusting humans, they need to develop it in their early lives via training. That's where, IMHO, the calm assertiveness comes in. I'm sure we couldn't expect training to go well if we behave in the opposite way, which would be something like manic, excitable and subservient during training.
> I'm a volunteer for Guide Dogs, including boarding, and have been trained by them, and that is the approach used by them to train highly obedient dogs, and that's good enough for me.


Of course, it's always best to be calm when dealing with any dog. Raised voices or excitable behaviour never helps.

The assertiveness really isn't necessary or even relevant.

A dog will learn to trust you if you are kind, consistent and clear with your messages.

Babies aren't born automatically trusting people. As they grow, they learn to trust their Parents, again through gentle guidance, kindness and consistency.

It's exactly the same for dogs.


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2014)

Tykey said:


> No I'm not confused at all, how do you think dogs develop trust in us, they aren't born trusting humans, they need to develop it in their early lives via training. That's where, IMHO, the calm assertiveness comes in. I'm sure we couldn't expect training to go well if we behave in the opposite way, which would be something like manic, excitable and subservient during training.
> I'm a volunteer for Guide Dogs, including boarding, and have been trained by them, and that is the approach used by them to train highly obedient dogs, and that's good enough for me.


Does Guide Dogs actually use the term calm assertive?
Im not questioning you, just genuinely curious.

Just a slightly nit-picky correction to the above, trust does not *have* to happen in a dogs early life. Obviously that would be preferable, but having worked with numerous adult rescues - many who never developed trust in humans at all, never mind during their early years, I know dogs can and do develop trust later on in life even after some pretty horrible starts in life.

Oh, and I am totally subservient to my dogs. I feed them, I groom them, I let them in and out when they ask....


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Tykey said:


> No I'm not confused at all, how do you think dogs develop trust in us, they aren't born trusting humans, they need to develop it in their early lives via training. That's where, IMHO, the calm assertiveness comes in. I'm sure we couldn't expect training to go well if we behave in the opposite way, which would be something like manic, excitable and grovelling.


No you are right, dogs are not born trusting anyone. That is why you have to earn it..You earn trust by being kind, consistent and giving clear guidelines of the behaviour you require.

You can gain trust in any stage of a dogs life.

Could you please go into more detail on what 'assertiveness' actually means in training? Of course it is best to stay calm when dealing with any sentient being...and of course I want my dog to be confident...but why do I have to be assertive to achieve trust?

Maybe if you explain what you mean I might be able to understand more


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

dogs actually DO seem to be born 'trusting' humans. there have been some pretty horrible studies done, where puppies were subjected to only nasty intereaction with himas, yet still, most of them would endeavour to intereact with humans.

it would appear the are pre programmed to seek out the company of humans.

as they are the only animal which does this, that makes them pretty special!

Ill try to find a lnk to the research.


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