# Woman Killed by Dog



## critter (Sep 14, 2010)

Hi, I heard on the news earlier that a woman in london had been killed by a *Belgian Mastiff* has anyone else heard any more on this ???. wayne.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Dog Attack: Woman Killed In Dog Attack At A Property In Wallington, Near Sutton, London | UK News | Sky News


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## critter (Sep 14, 2010)

gr33neyes said:


> Dog Attack: Woman Killed In Dog Attack At A Property In Wallington, Near Sutton, London | UK News | Sky News


Hi, Thanks for rhar gr33neyes, I wasn't sure that I had heard it properly, the radio was only on as a bit of background. wayne.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2010)

IT was also said on the news that the dog may not be a Belguim Mastiff
Did not catch it all but they were saying the breed have died out! BUT if there were males left these may have mated with a 'similair' dog

Don't know how true this all is!

They have taken to dogs body away for examination.

Very sad for all concerned! 
One think I would ask - seems that another adult in the house called the emergency services, I know nothing of this breed but would like to think that is anyone I knew were being mauled by a dog that I would have a least tried to beat it off with whatever weapon came to hand - those of you who know these larger breeds - would this not be an option? just curious really

DT


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## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> IT was also said on the news that the dog may not be a Belguim Mastiff
> Did not catch it all but they were saying the breed have died out! BUT if there were males left these may have mated with a 'similair' dog
> 
> Don't know how true this all is!
> ...


I would do all i can to get the dog off person

This is so sad


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

I would imagine they did try everything they could - just because they rang the emergency services, doesn't mean they weren't trying to get the dog off.

It such a tragic story  The poor woman and her family.

I thought Belgian Mastiffs were an extinct breed as well.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> IT was also said on the news that the dog may not be a Belguim Mastiff
> Did not catch it all but they were saying the breed have died out! BUT if there were males left these may have mated with a 'similair' dog
> 
> Don't know how true this all is!
> ...


If you are physically fit and have the stomach for it there are ways of stopping any dog


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

archielee said:


> I would do all i can to get the dog off person
> 
> This is so sad


I think it's impossible to comment on this situation really 

I'm as sure as I can, that I would try, but faced with such a horrendous situation, who knows what we really would do? What do you do first, ring 999 or initially try and help? What would you use to defend yourselves? A dog that big, you'd need more than a rolled up newspaper!

To be honest, I doubt their are "guidelines" about what to do in the event of a serious dog attack? Maybe there should be?

Personally I would not own a dog that I could not physically "handle" but that's just me, I am NOT saying large breeds are bad. And I know smaller breeds can bite too!

Maybe circumstances will come out, maybe not, often there seems to be no real explanation why these dogs attack with such ferocity. Though there must be an underlying issue somewhere, it's not normal dog behaviour?


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

hawksport said:


> If you are physically fit and have the stomach for it there are ways of stopping any dog


I agree totally.

Im not condoning it but there was man in the paper not long ago who stabbed the dog to death to get it to stop.

On a lighter note, off to find out about the Belgian mastiff. . .


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## ClaireLily (Jul 8, 2008)

Horrible story, coincidently I was watching rubbish on Dmax last night, a program called I was bitten and on it was a 60 yr old lady who was mauled by a bull dog in the states. 
The owner eventually came out but couldn't get the dog off her as it had no collar or anything on. The poor woman needed 16 surgeries to reattach her scalp, fix her ankle and her bicep and tricep muscles which had been torn from the bones. She also needed skin grafts on her forehead.

I was horrified to see how badly injured she was after an attack from a small dog, yes I know they are strong and heavy (86lb I think it was) but she was whacking it over the snout with a folder and it made no difference.


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## kazschow (Oct 23, 2008)

they said they took a puppy away too...


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

What a dreadful tragedy
Why do they have to reel off the list of dog attacks from the past every time another one happens- is it just to make the article look like it is a frequent occurrence & to help stir up the anti-certain-breeds brigade?


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

hawksport said:


> If you are physically fit and have the stomach for it there are ways of stopping any dog


This is very true, but the woman may not have known this or the dog may have attacked from behind. Such a shame.... I have no idea why people want to keep dangerous dogs


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

surely the other person could have badly hurt or even killed the dog 

Either way it is so sad that this has happened and I rally feel for her family.

What a tragic end for the poor poor woman 

ETA: aparently this is the type of dog they think it is...... can see why she didnt stand a chance. Someone feel free to correct me if this is not the dog... was found on a google search


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

simplysardonic said:


> What a dreadful tragedy
> Why do they have to reel off the list of dog attacks from the past every time another one happens- is it just to make the article look like it is a frequent occurrence & to help stir up the anti-certain-breeds brigade?


If it would only raise awareness that dogs (of any description) need to be treated with care and respect 

I don't think it does any harm highlighting these attacks, why sweep them under the carpet? Unfortunately it doesn't seem to do much good either! But who knows? Maybe there are people who have rethought the breeds they buy or do more research into their care?


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## kazschow (Oct 23, 2008)

harley bear said:


> This is very true, but the woman may not have known this or the dog may have attacked from behind. Such a shame.... I have no idea why people want to keep dangerous dogs


In fairness what constitutes a dangerous dog? None of us know what went on in that house, only one, possibly two people that were there do, and one of them is dead, the complete story might never come out. Was it an unprevoked attack, was there a prelude to it, was the dog well treated, what was the training like etc, all factors that need to be assessed.... It's a tragic loss of lifes.


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## Allana (Jul 7, 2010)

cutekiaro1 said:


> surely the other person could have badly hurt or even killed the dog
> 
> Either way it is so sad that this has happened and I rally feel for her family.
> 
> ...


Oooft that is one BIG dog!


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

cutekiaro1 said:


> surely the other person could have badly hurt or even killed the dog
> 
> Either way it is so sad that this has happened and I rally feel for her family.
> 
> ...


Pretty sure that's an Anatonian


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

http://www.greatdogsite.com/breeds/details/Belgian_Mastiff/


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

as there was a puppy present is it possible the adult dog was its mother & acting in defence- not that it makes this excusable but it could explain it


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

hawksport said:


> Pretty sure that's an Anatonian


you could well be right there, couldnt find much info on them


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## pamela Renfrew (Jun 9, 2010)

Shame..... sad, sad story....... 
I guess it would be difficult to say how you would react in a situation like this....... Some people just freeze..... some would do all they can.....It would take a lot of guts I think to actually get a kitchen knife or whatever and lunge it into your dog....... but, at the same time if it saves a humans life ......
I know that Kai my malamute who weighs in at almost 60kgs once was pushed too far by my gsd..... and my other gsd joined in..... Kai actually through one of them across the garden while I managed to get the other one off..... Luckily no harm was caused..... and that Kai now has completely changed personality since we took him in 3 years ago..... But even something like that does give you an awful fright......
If the adrenalin is pumping.... there is very little you can do to calm them down......
Pamx


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

pamela Renfrew said:


> And especially difficult with a large powerful breed that might weigh almost as much as you
> 
> While it has been mentioned about using extreme methods to stop attack, in the frenzy .... How easy would it be to injure, maybe seriously or worse, the person or child being attacked
> 
> Terrible situation, nightmare ....


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## JohnMorris (Oct 15, 2010)

Just caught up with this thread and horrified that another incident has happened.


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## jennyanydots (Jul 31, 2010)

this is an awful incident....


yet another tragic moron abusing a dog and the dog paying the high price for owner's stupidity


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2010)

Its very sad that she died and I really hope that this puppy they removed from the house is found a good home. 

There must be something either wrong with the dog or wrong with how it was raised for dogs to turn when others dont, I am not saying its her fault as we dont know if its her dog or the man who lives with her or if they took it on as a rescue.

Sadly these attacks are getting more frequent it would be very sad to see more breeds added to the dangerous dogs act.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

jennyanydots said:


> this is an awful incident....
> 
> yet another tragic moron abusing a dog and the dog paying the high price for owner's stupidity


You must have read something I haven't


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

jennyanydots said:


> yet another tragic moron abusing a dog and the dog paying the high price for owner's stupidity


How do you know that? Has it been made public that this was an abused dog?


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2010)

jennyanydots said:


> this is an awful incident....
> 
> yet another tragic moron abusing a dog and the dog paying the high price for owner's stupidity


You couldnt possibly know that...the dog could have had something wrong with it.


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

Don;t know how anyone can speculate without the true facts......

A dog like that could possibly be used by drug dealers....to 'scare' punters into paying up.....

I have known a woman to have had a staffie ordered by its owner to rip this woman apart - and the dog did...this woman had bits of skin and flesh hanging off her....


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

gorgeous said:


> Don;t know how anyone can speculate without the true facts......
> 
> A dog like that could possibly be used by drug dealers....to 'scare' punters into paying up.....
> 
> I have known a woman to have had a staffie ordered by its owner to rip this woman apart - and the dog did...this woman had bits of skin and flesh hanging off her....


You have just done exactly that yourself ... :confused1:


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> You have just done exactly that yourself ... :confused1:


not speculated or said that is what happened - just said it is a possibility.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

gorgeous said:


> not speculated or said that is what happened - just said it is a possibility.


Mmmmm I think most people would consider that speculating 

But tis human nature to do so ...


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

gorgeous said:


> Don;t know how anyone can speculate without the true facts......
> 
> A dog like that could possibly be used by drug dealers....to 'scare' punters into paying up.....
> 
> I have known a woman to have had a staffie ordered by its owner to rip this woman apart - and the dog did...this woman had bits of skin and flesh hanging off her....


and I know a Border Collie who had a very good home who went straight through all it's KC Good Citizens with no trouble and never gave me or anyone else any cause for concern untill the day it attacked it's owner. Brain tumour.
There's only one way to 100% guarantee this won't happen to anyone


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2010)

At the end of the day the true facts 'should' emerge
They have taken the dogs body for further examination!

The question I asked was if you were faced in with the same situation would you go to extreme lengths .

Thanks for your reply hawksport!


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> At the end of the day the true facts 'should' emerge
> They have taken the dogs body for further examination!
> 
> The question I asked was if you were faced in with the same situation would you go to extreme lengths .
> ...


I guess unless you were in that situation it is hard to say - can imagine must be pretty terrifying seeing a dog that size attacking someone HOWEVER as weak as I am,,,if either of my kids were being attacked, then I would do what I could to save my kids...


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

The thing that isn't quite right about the incident is that the occupier of the house and the dog's owner, one and the same is being sought by the police. Surely if this was just a pooch gone mad then the owner would have been there or he would have contacted the police right away if he had been out of town for some innocent reason.

As for dealing with a crazed big dog, unless a person is sure that they can either bring some control to the dog or manage in some way to remove it from the scene, then anyone who attempts to kick, wound or stab a huge powerful dog may make the situation a lot worse IMO. I agree that sometimes lives have been saved by intervention, but how many have just made the situation a whole lot worse by winding the dog up even more.
Perhaps phoning 999 to get help is better than ending up with two very seriously wounded or dead people. Also it may have been obvious the woman was dead before they even made the call.


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

I doubt the full facts will ever be known because, as is inexplicably common with all such events, the main piece of evidence has already been destroyed.

Tragic incident and my thoughts are extended to victim's family.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2010)

gorgeous said:


> I guess unless you were in that situation it is hard to say - can imagine must be pretty terrifying seeing a dog that size attacking someone HOWEVER as weak as I am,,,if either of my kids were being attacked, then I would do what I could to save my kids...


so would I have thought the same gorgeous, and with whatever weapon be at hand be it a knife an axe a hammer a chain or even a piece of wood!

I know they say that their is an area on a dog that WILL stop it in its tracks! in a frenzy though I would not like to have to rely on it working!

DT


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I know they say that their is an area on a dog that WILL stop it in its tracks! in a frenzy though I would not like to have to rely on it working!
> 
> DT


So what happens when it doesn't stop and the mad dog turns on you. 
It is a bit like lunging at an attacker or intruder with a knife, what happens if you miss or drop the knife or he manages to take it off you.

If you end up vulnerable, then big dogs often have lightning reflexes, an athletic, muscular body and a whole mouth of knives to make you pay.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2010)

I once had two foster dogs in my care both had been raised around dogs and where dog friendly....the staff was very possessive of my OH and the JRT was playing with him one day and growled when tugging on a toy.

The staff got hold of his throat...my OH who is 6ft 4'' and 20 stone couldnt get the staff off the JRT. He tried everything, distracting her, walking off, everything. I came into the yard and picked up the brush to try and get the brush inbetwen its jaws.....5 people and still no sign of letting go of him.

In the end I walked off into the house as I thought the JRT was dead and went to phone the dog warden, everyone else followed me and the staff let go and came in like nothing had happened.

Lucky the JRT was playing dead and was in fact only slightly hurt which a clean up and some anti-biotics and a little bit of ear missing sorted out. 

I was so scared....as she had previously shown agression towards me if I sat with my OH. 

I know for a fact I could get Scorcher (my gsd) off a dog or human if she ever attacked but I dont know about a mastiff.


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> So what happens when it doesn't stop and the mad dog turns on you.
> It is a bit like lunging at an attacker or intruder with a knife, what happens if you miss or drop the knife or he manages to take it off you.
> 
> If you end up vulnerable, then big dogs often have lightning reflexes, an athletic, muscular body and a whole mouth of knives to make you pay.


If it were my kids being attacked, I would rather the dog turned on me than them!


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2010)

lauren001 said:


> So what happens when it doesn't stop and the mad dog turns on you.
> It is a bit like lunging at an attacker or intruder with a knife, what happens if you miss or drop the knife or he manages to take it off you.
> 
> If you end up vulnerable, then big dogs often have lightning reflexes, an athletic, muscular body and a whole mouth of knives to make you pay.


A knife would by no means be a weapon I would chose as it happens! I just emphasized ANYTHING at hand including a knife! I think SL has just given first hand experience as to how strong these dogs are or can be! But if this were a mother and child senario then it would be gut instinct to have ago even if it meant forfiting ones life!

I think myself I would have tried the fire extinquisher first as it happens!

As I said - I was merely asking what folk who do in a similair situation! And folk do daft thinks in the heat of the moment!

DT


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## critter (Sep 14, 2010)

I know for a fact I could get Scorcher (my gsd) off a dog or human if she ever attacked but I dont know about a mastiff.
__________________
Hi, how do you know that?, has your dog ever attacked another dog or human??. wayne


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

What a oustanding, beautiful looking dog.

Sad news, but never seen a dog like that!


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2010)

gorgeous said:


> If it were my kids being attacked, I would rather the dog turned on me than them!


That was my reckoning Mrs! and any mother would not ever think of the dangers let alone consider the options!


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

I can honestly say, if Duke went for another person or dog, at 6 months old there is no way I could get him off.

Lollie on the other hand, is pintsize and 12 weeks I'm sure I could manage to pull her away ;-)


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2010)

Tbh if my OH and/or my child or infact any mother/child was being attacked I would take my keys and jam them into its eyes...as horrid as it seems a childs life is more important.

Thats coming from someone who prefairs animals to humans.


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

I have just heard, this is terrible that poor woman and that poor dog, I wonder what made it snap,, 


I would hate to be in that situation, and can't imagine what i would do,, you never know when that strange auto pilot takes over... 

so sad.


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## ali 63 (Nov 5, 2010)

jennyanydots said:


> this is an awful incident....
> 
> yet another tragic moron abusing a dog and the dog paying the high price for owner's stupidity


Cant believe youve written this !!!!
A lady in her 40s, A mother, someones daughter, killed by a dog, how could you posibly call her a moron, disgusting, none of us know the facts, only that it must of been horific in that house , something that who was ever with her will prob never get over seeing, im glad they shot it, and im a dog lover,


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

a man has been arrested on suspicion of manslaughter .


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2010)

dexter said:


> a man has been arrested on suspicion of manslaughter .


Oh dear! so if this is true then this could be a case of a weapon dog! very said as it is bound to have an effect on these larger breeds!


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2010)

ali 63 said:


> Cant believe youve written this !!!!
> A lady in her 40s, A mother, someones daughter, killed by a dog, how could you posibly call her a moron, disgusting, none of us know the facts, only that it must of been horific in that house , something that who was ever with her will prob never get over seeing, im glad they shot it, and im a dog lover,


Erm! Dog lover! I don't think the poster were calling the victem a moron! least that weren't the way I read it!


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

OK I am confused and don't all cyber yell at once,, why is this man being held responsable, surly if this lady lives in this house and she has the dog in there, it is no ones fault imparticular,, just the dog snapped over something and the outcaome was just terrible.. 

I know I am possibly being a bit thick but the man was't there was he.

hang on will come back in about half hour got to sing the kids to bed,, christmas eve and all that:lol:


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## OllieBob (Nov 28, 2010)

The woman was a lodger. The dog was owned by the house owner the man who has been arrested.


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## ali 63 (Nov 5, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Erm! Dog lover! I don't think the poster were calling the victem a moron! least that weren't the way I read it!


"Another moron abusing a dog" !!!

How do you read it then ???


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2010)

And there was a child in the house - fortunately unharmed!
The poor woman who died it states was a lawyer!
Think we will have to wait until the police can put this together as to exactly what happened!

DT


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> And there was a child in the house - fortunately unharmed!
> The poor woman who died it states was a lawyer!
> Think we will have to wait until the police can put this together as to exactly what happened!
> 
> DT


I actually read it that the person who owned the dog were maybe training it for the wrong reasons! Bearing in mind the area lets say a status symbel! Seems the woman who was killed lived at the house anfd would think that she must have trusted the dog!

Maybe I am wrong! but that was how I read it to be!

PErhaps we should all wait and see before we jump to conclusions - but there have been a feew complaints against the younger dog! Who knows! maybe this one started the trouble! when dogs fight they do npt know who they are biting! all reason goes out of the window and the killer instinct sets in!

DT


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## ali 63 (Nov 5, 2010)

Poor woman, my heart goes out to her family,


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

The man is 24,,,the property in South London...

maybe my speculation is not too far off the mark......


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2010)

ali 63 said:


> "Another moron abusing a dog" !!!
> 
> How do you read it then ???


Sorry! just quoted myself in error so am posting again!

I actually read it that the person who owned the dog were maybe training it for the wrong reasons! Bearing in mind the area lets say a status symbel! Seems the woman who was killed lived at the house anfd would think that she must have trusted the dog!

Maybe I am wrong! but that was how I read it to be!

PErhaps we should all wait and see before we jump to conclusions - but there have been a feew complaints against the younger dog! Who knows! maybe this one started the trouble! when dogs fight they do npt know who they are biting! all reason goes out of the window and the killer instinct sets in!

DT


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

A man has been arrested, so there is definitely more to it then meets the eye...lets just say through the course of my work I have seen victims of these 'trained' dogs and lets just say they have been lucky to come out alive....


Again, I am speculating, but alarm bells are ringing!!!!


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2010)

gorgeous said:


> A man has been arrested, so there is definitely more to it then meets the eye...lets just say through the course of my work I have seen victims of these 'trained' dogs and lets just say they have been lucky to come out alive....
> 
> Again, I am speculating, but alarm bells are ringing!!!!


Yep! they are ring here too Mrs!

But time will tell!


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

As far as the Belgian KC is concerned the Belgian Mastiff is extinct and even the FCI have the breed on the suspension list.

There are people who are trying to recreat the breed which has a natural bobtail.
So lets face it, people who are "recreating" the breed are throwing all sorts together the same as has been done for other revived breeds.

Here in the UK it wont be the top dogs of the breed (you can garuntee that) and alot of people are now breeding "bandogs" as a multi-purpose dog rolleyes and we all know breeds banned under the DDA are alive and breeding here too so there could be anything in the line in an attempt to recreat such a large powerful breed.


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## Lulu's owner (May 1, 2009)

There's an article in the Telegraph saying that the dog was abused, kept chained up outside, forever whining and barking and the neighbour tried to get the RSPCA to act.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2010)

Lulu's owner said:


> There's an article in the Telegraph saying that the dog was abused, kept chained up outside, forever whining and barking and the neighbour tried to get the RSPCA to act.


The neighbour was on the Tv saying they'd complained to Police, authorities and RSPCA, they were taking away all stuff from house and wouldn't be doing that if it was a open/shut case.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2010)

jennyanydots said:


> this is an awful incident....
> 
> yet another tragic moron abusing a dog and the dog paying the high price for owner's stupidity





> There's an article in the Telegraph saying that the dog was abused, kept chained up outside, forever whining and barking and the neighbour tried to get the RSPCA to act.


I think although maybe not worded in the best way the Telegraph (see Lulus post) and BBC News have established that there were issues that had been reported! in circumstances like this the people at fault are those who ignored the neighbour... the police... the council.... the RSPCA????


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2010)

ali 63 said:


> "Another moron abusing a dog" !!!
> 
> How do you read it then ???


I read that as the MORON who owned the dog abused it (according to the Telegraph, neighbour's statement and various complains to Police, Council and RSPCA) not the woman mauled by a dog...whilst not worded in the best way Moron is the only way to describe someone who abuses a dog!! Maybe you should apply a think before speak mode!

Whilst I agree the dog should have been shot to protect the lady as a dog lover I'd never be revelling in its death after all I don't think the dog CHOSE to live in an abusive environment.

A poor lady, a mother, a daughter, a friend has died RIP


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## ClaireLily (Jul 8, 2008)

I whole-heartedly agree that something here doesn't add up and nobody would have been arrested if it was a clean cut dog gone daft case, but, do not believe all you read as far as witness statements go.

A few months back a guy was shot and killed a couple mins from my house, witness reports quoted three different sources as saying what a lovely man he was etc etc. 
The truth was that he was a true criminal, owned a number of properties which he rented out to less fortunate females (drug dependent and or very young single mums) and accepted payment in kind mostly under duress. The police themselves told me he was no loss to society and the world was a better place without him, their suspect list was endless.

Just pointing out you cannot believe all you read, some people will say anything just to be quoted as saying something


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

It appears the man arrested has been charged with manslaughter and growing cannabis...so there's more to this than meets the eye.


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## Guest (Dec 25, 2010)

poohdog said:


> It appears the man arrested has been charged with manslaughter and growing cannabis...so there's more to this than meets the eye.


couldn't agree more!


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## ali 63 (Nov 5, 2010)

Buster's Mummy said:


> I read that as the MORON who owned the dog abused it (according to the Telegraph, neighbour's statement and various complains to Police, Council and RSPCA) not the woman mauled by a dog...whilst not worded in the best way Moron is the only way to describe someone who abuses a dog!! Maybe you should apply a think before speak mode!
> 
> Whilst I agree the dog should have been shot to protect the lady as a dog lover I'd never be revelling in its death after all I don't think the dog CHOSE to live in an abusive environment.
> 
> A poor lady, a mother, a daughter, a friend has died RIP


I always think before i speak, & i always put humans before dogs as well, Need to get priorities in order i think,


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

I wouldn't say Buster's Mummy has to get her priortites in order. I think shes got it pretty spot on actually - it was necessary for the police to do what they done in order to try to save the poor womans life. Personally, I read the articles as two innocent lives lost, because if other articles are anything to go by the dog wasn't exactly a pampered member of the family . I value a canine life just as much as a human one x


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## Lulu's owner (May 1, 2009)

ali 63 said:


> I always think before i speak, & i always put humans before dogs as well, Need to get priorities in order i think,


OK, but the woman did choose to live in a druggie house where a dog was being abused, so it's not quite the same as when a poor child is killed.


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## Guest (Dec 25, 2010)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> I wouldn't say Buster's Mummy has to get her priortites in order. I think shes got it pretty spot on actually - it was necessary for the police to do what they done in order to try to save the poor womans life. Personally, I read the articles as two innocent lives lost, because if other articles are anything to go by the dog wasn't exactly a pampered member of the family . I value a canine life just as much as a human one x


Rep for you :thumbup:


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## Guest (Dec 25, 2010)

ali 63 said:


> I always think before i speak, & i always put humans before dogs as well, Need to get priorities in order i think,


I have my priorties in order thank you very much! My dogs are loved as much a a 'human' they are neither beaten nor abused, they are not chained nor chastised!, they are neither starved nor made to suffer! Firm but kind is my motto!!!

You continue to put your 'humans' first! I would NEVER trust you with a dog of mine!

Do you OWN a dog by the way!


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## Guest (Dec 25, 2010)

ali 63 said:


> I always think before i speak, & i always put humans before dogs as well, Need to get priorities in order i think,


Where did I put the dog before the human?

I think I have made it perfectly clear that the dog had to be shot in order to rescue the poor lady. I also said it was a very unfortunate incident whereby two lives were lost and NONE would have been lost if the dog was kept in an environment where it was nurtured and allowed to develop. 

I certainly do not need to get my priorities in order I think like I said before you need to engage brain...you have just assumed that I am putting a dogs life before a human and YOU couldn't be further from the truth...maybe you are getting confused where you hypocritically call yourself a dog lover and then say you are glad the dog was shot 4 times and killed? If I witnessed someone being mauled by a dog I'd do anything possible to get said dog OFF!!! I wouldn't kill a dog and then celebrate that fact - I'd be relieved that the situation was made safer but wouldn't celebrate the death of any animal!

I agree that the dog HAD to be shot but am UNHAPPY () it came to that I am quite ANGRY mad that things were allowed to spiral out of control to the point this happened in the first place.

You question my priorities but my priorities would have been to remove that dog from an abusive home BEFORE someone was mauled to death possibly teh first time it was reported by the neighbour!! - what would you have done personally?


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## Guest (Dec 25, 2010)

Lulu's owner said:


> OK, but the woman did choose to live in a druggie house where a dog was being abused, so it's not quite the same as when a poor child is killed.


I wouldn't blame the woman, it was a terrible incident that could have been VERY easily avoided had the police, council and RSPCA acted when alerted. How many of these cases do we hear where neighbours have complained about unsanitary breeding practices, aggressive dogs, barking, abuse etc and these WARNING SIGNS have been IGNORED by the people who are employed to help us.

I think it was dreadfully sad but get very angry that it didn't have to happen. If those employed to protect our animals had actually followed up on complaints or if that bloke had cared for the dog correctly a woman would still be alive today and that dog may have had a second chance before it had an opportunity to snap.

It's too late now and like I have said two lives have been needlessly lost and that makes me very angry!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Buster's Mummy said:


> I wouldn't blame the woman, it was a terrible incident that could have been VERY easily avoided had the police, council and RSPCA acted when alerted. How many of these cases do we hear where neighbours have complained about unsanitary breeding practices, aggressive dogs, barking, abuse etc and these WARNING SIGNS have been IGNORED by the people who are employed to help us.
> 
> I think it was dreadfully sad but get very angry that it didn't have to happen. If those employed to protect our animals had actually followed up on complaints or if that bloke had cared for the dog correctly a woman would still be alive today and that dog may have had a second chance before it had an opportunity to snap.
> 
> It's too late now and like I have said two lives have been needlessly lost and that makes me very angry!


Totally agree! :thumbup: And I share your anger. What makes me even more angry is that when all the inquests on the death have taken place, blame won't be apportioned to those authorities who failed to act


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## Lulu's owner (May 1, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> Totally agree! :thumbup: And I share your anger. What makes me even more angry is that when all the inquests on the death have taken place, blame won't be apportioned to those authorities who failed to act


I agree that the main blame lies with the dog's owner and the authorities, but apparently the woman was not concerned when the dog was behaving very roughly with some small children, so she did not behave totally responsibly around the dog herself.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Lulu's owner said:


> OK, but the woman did choose to live in a druggie house where a dog was being abused, so it's not quite the same as when a poor child is killed.


Personally I think any loss of life is equally tragic. You can't even begin to KNOW what circumstances surrounded this lady's reasons for living where she did 

Some people are determined to be so judgmental, not nice when someone has lost their life under what can only surely be considered the most horrendous circumstances ...


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## Guest (Dec 26, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Personally I think any loss of life is equally tragic. You can't even begin to KNOW what circumstances surrounded this lady's reasons for living where she did
> 
> Some people are determined to be so judgmental, not nice when someone has lost their life under what can only surely be considered the most horrendous circumstances ...


And we are all, each and every one of us entitled to our opinions! We may NOT know the circumstances, but it is human nature to speculate.

Until the full details of the incident are made common knowledge shall refrain from saying more! But at this stage I think I am on the same wavelength as Lulu's owner on this one judging by the picture that has been painted so far"!


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> And under such horrible circumstances not a particularly nice thing to do
> 
> As another member said, some people seem to "revel" in these tragedies, supported and encouraged no doubt by the media circus ...
> 
> Just my thoughts and opinion.


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## Guest (Dec 26, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> And under such horrible circumstances not a particularly nice thing to do
> 
> As another member said, some people seem to "revel" in these tragedies, supported and encouraged no doubt by the media circus ...
> 
> Just my thoughts and opinion.


On a forum people discuss current affairs! seeing as this is a 'Pet Forum' it is bound to be the main topic of converstion!

I don't think anyone is reveling in 'these tragedies'

Just my thoughts and opinion too!


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## Guest (Dec 26, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> some people seem to "revel" in these tragedies, supported and encouraged no doubt by the media circus ...


The only "revelling" I can see or have seen is someone who has said that it was a good thing the dog was shot and killed...from a dog lover I find that quite strange.

I agree with DT I have not seen anyone revelling in this...it was a very sad event which could have been avoided.

A member who has commented on this thread has experience of puppy farmers yet claims I cannot get my priorities right... A belgian Mastiff is an 'extinct' breed according to the Belium KC... a dog was shot dead and a puppy seized! Draw from this what you will but I think somewhere unethical breeding practices are going on (whether thsi was by the occupants of the house or a breeder outside of the household), dogs are suffering and a lady has lost her life.

I am commenting on the facts that have been released...I could read between the lines and form a reasonable judgement but will hold on until the police have carried out their investigation, looked back at previous history (which I will admit they are very poor at doing!), consulted with the RSPCA (which again they are very poor at) and listened to neighbours reports (which again they seem to be very poor at!!) only then I will say exactly what I think...until now I will continue to sit on the fence on this one.

Two lives were needlessly lost and this incident could have been prevented!


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## Guest (Dec 26, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> On a forum people discuss current affairs! seeing as this is a 'Pet Forum' it is bound to be the main topic of converstion!
> 
> I don't think anyone is reveling in 'these tragedies'
> 
> Just my thoughts and opinion too!


I agree...but unfortunately have to 'share my reputation around' :thumbup:


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Buster's Mummy said:


> The only "revelling" I can see or have seen is someone who has said that it was a good thing the dog was shot and killed...from a dog lover I find that quite strange.


Given the circumstances, to be honest, I agree that shooting this poor dog was the "best" thing for it and indeed the police had no other choice, given it was in the process of killing the poor woman as they arrived.

Police had to get it away from victim asap and from the moment it began to attack it was doomed to be pts, while shooting is not a preferred method for pet lovers, it must have been reasonably quick and as humane a thing to do as possible (given circumstances).

Not sure in what context original comment you refer to was made? I doubt anyone on this board would "like" to see dogs shot routinely, I hope not.

However I genuinely wish that police had got there soon enough to shoot dog and save woman's life. Obviously I would have much preferred that this and similar killings (of both people and dogs) never happened ...


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## Guest (Dec 26, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Given the circumstances, to be honest, I agree that shooting this poor dog was the "best" thing for it and indeed the police had no other choice, given it was in the process of killing the poor woman as they arrived.
> 
> Police had to get it away from victim asap and from the moment it began to attack it was doomed to be pts, while shooting is not a preferred method for pet lovers, it must have been reasonably quick and as humane a thing to do as possible (given circumstances).


And as I have said again if people read my posts.......I said that I agree with the dog being shot it was the only way to make THE or ANY situation safe. I also said I would do anything in my power to rescue someone from an aggressive dog and if the dog had to be killed I would but I certainly would never REVEL in the dogs death. I refer to the post where the member said he/she was glad that the dog was shot dead...I think you will find that I also said if I had to kill a dog for 'needs must' I would do so but certainly would not revel in it as it's a life that could have been saved in a very different environment.

I personally struggle to see how people can form judgements without reading a whole thread?


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## Guest (Dec 26, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> However I genuinely wish that police had got there soon enough to shoot dog and save woman's life. Obviously I would have much preferred that this and similar killings (of both people and dogs) never happened ...


Exactly...this killing COULD have been avoided...which is what most of us are saying!!


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Buster's Mummy said:


> And as I have said again if people read my posts.......


Sometimes posts aren't quite as clear as they could be! I am sure that applies to mine too, so not to worry 

Ultimately the police have to make very quick decisions when faced with a serious dog attack and even if a dog is killed when they err on the side of caution, it must surely be seen as acceptable ...

Very sad, so off for a Baileys and ice to lighten my mood a little, it is Boxing Day after all 

Again, my thoughts remain with all concerned with this tragedy ...


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## Guest (Dec 26, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Sometimes posts aren't quite as clear as they could be! I am sure that applies to mine too, so not to worry
> 
> Ultimately the police have to make very quick decisions when faced with a serious dog attack and even if a dog is killed when they err on the side of caution, it must surely be seen as acceptable ...


So in case my thread wasn't clear enough 

The police DID what they HAD to do so the killing was ACCEPTABLE but if they had done what they were EMPLOYED to do in the first place when the neighbour noticed WARNING signs it WOULDN'T have happened! The dog HAD to be killed but people do not have to celebrate this fact on a PET FORUM :thumbup:


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## Guest (Dec 26, 2010)

I may appear to be a little uptight here BUT when you work in rescues faced with a dog that is "severely agressive around children" you have to make a decision whether that dog can be rehomed...are the family telling the truth are they lying?

I then ask the owners WHY the dog is aggressive...

"well my three year old had a packet of crisps and wouldn't give the dog any so the dog snapped at little johnny"

"ah does the dog often beg for food?" 

"yes he begs all the time"

"do you ever give him any food when he begs?"

"well yes its the only way to get rid of him"

OK we will take this dog away and rehome him in an experienced home...all along knowing that dog avoided a horrible fate. Owners ignore warning signs often making the situation worse...once labelled aggressive it's hard to shake that title.

The other scenario is the guy who keeps his dog locked outside barking all day long...he is a drug dealer and his dog is a big ferocious looking thing - capable of a lot of damage he uses thise dog to scare his 'customers' into paying up...he bullies people with this dog. People know of this dog and report it to the police, RSPCA and the Council...nothing is done...the dog attacks (well thats what it is designed for) is then killed...who wins?

I have seen many status dogs around this way bred and trained for fighting and they have been rehabilitated...some still have slight agression issues but the new owners KNOW the signs and KNOW how to work with the dog.... who wins?

I am not saying all cases of dog attacks are due to an abusive environment or useless owners but when I hear a story like this my heart sinks...I feel bad for that woman killed but I feel a harrowing sence of loss for that dog who maybe had a poor life, there was a reason for attack it takes a lot for a dog to turn on a human it's not as open and shut as the government make it by banning the breeds.

Dogs attack when they are ill, trained to attack, poorly trained...in very few cases it can't be avoided (the dog may have an illness) but I have read of dogs attacking whilst disturbed from sleep...whilst avoidable it makes me angry that people paint the dog as agressive...all childen should be taught that they don't disturb a sleeping dog!

Dog aggression is bandied around like it's fashionable but we should be asking "if that dog is aggressive"...why?...and can it be rehabilitated?....no? then the kindest thing maybe to humanely put it to sleep to prevent future heartache...if it can then get it out and rehabilitate.

That is why my heart sinks when I hear sensationalist headlines "Staffy kills" or "Dangerous breed kills child" it's not the flipping breed it's the stupid owner...I hope to god they make an example of this man and that the police start to follow up on complaints in the future. The sad thing isn't that two lives were lost...it's the fact two lives could have been saved that gets me!

RIP that poor lady and all the others lost to ignorance!


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## Guest (Dec 26, 2010)

Buster's Mummy said:


> So in case my thread wasn't clear enough
> 
> The police DID what they HAD to do so the killing was ACCEPTABLE but if they had done what they were EMPLOYED to do in the first place when the neighbour noticed WARNING signs it WOULDN'T have happened! The dog HAD to be killed but people do not have to celebrate this fact on a PET FORUM :thumbup:


In my opinion you made yourself perfectly clear! :thumbup:

As did the MAJORITY or members who have contributed to this thread!

And that if there HAD been measures taken by the authorities following, what reads to be a contstant strings of complaints then this poor woman would more then likely still be alive today! But then there are a lot of 'ifs'and buts' arn't there just! if the dog had been better treated maybe that too who still have been alive today also!

Where is I am stumbling on this one is HOW some people can DISS other PF members views just because THEY are not in line with their own!

Any for anyone considering an icecream - have two and come back 'well chilled' that way we may just avoid a 'heated' debate on this one!

Happy boxing day everyone! and let us hope today don't live up to it's name eh!:scared:

DT


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## Guest (Dec 26, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Happy boxing day everyone! and let us hope today don't live up to it's name eh!:scared:
> 
> DT


LOL

The dogs have already had a boxing match...over a cardboard box!! All the toys they got and they want the flipping BOX!!! I wonder if [email protected] sell boxes on their own?


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

From the reports I have seen the dog was not shot in order to effect a rescue. The dog was contained in another part of the house when it was shot.

If this is correct then there was no need to kill the dog immediately and we have done ourselves no favours in doing so. This same mistake (destroying evidence before it has been examined) is made time and time again in cases of fatal dog attacks and it smacks more of revenge than of a reasoned approach.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I would think that the police officers did not really know what to do with the dog and so took the easy way out by killing it.
Any animal out of control and being in the hands of the police is at risk of being killed, despite I am sure it would be easily dealt with if it was under the hands of an experienced person. 
So escapees from abattoirs, dangerous dogs, escaped farm animals, zoo animals etc. all get shot if they are anywhere near the public at all, if no experienced handler steps forward to prevent it.

They weigh up risks to the public both real and imagined and if dead the dog is at no risk so they tend to take that course of action IMO.


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> I would think that the police officers did not really know what to do with the dog and so took the easy way out by killing it.
> Any animal out of control and being in the hands of the police is at risk of being killed, despite I am sure it would be easily dealt with if it was under the hands of an experienced person.
> So escapees from abattoirs, dangerous dogs, escaped farm animals, zoo animals etc. all get shot if they are anywhere near the public at all, if no experienced handler steps forward to prevent it.
> 
> They weigh up risks to the public both real and imagined and if dead the dog is at no risk so they tend to take that course of action IMO.


Lets face it if the police never killed it, then it would have been pts very soon after.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

I think the police did the best thing in the given horrifying circumstances they were faced with. Certainly the best thing for this dog.

No dog that has attacked so viciously, has any future other than euthanasia. How can it? Whatever the reason it killed, it could never be re-homed ... It's future if taken away would be weeks or more likely months, even longer, in kennels, alone, as it was held as evidence. Little human contact for obvious reasons! No life at all then death waiting at the end 

Not sure what could be achieved by putting a dog through this? Asses it's personality? I think what it did (for whatever reason) shows, temperament was dubious. Why? I doubt this could ever be proven. Veterinary assessment? Maybe not a lot could be identified that a post mortem could not :confused1: 

I think the police did the right thing, if this dog had got away, bitten someone else or worse, they would have been "lynched" by the public, for not shooting it when they had it confined.

Anyway, just how I see it from the dogs point too


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## Guest (Dec 26, 2010)

Johnderondon said:


> From the reports I have seen the dog was not shot in order to effect a rescue. The dog was contained in another part of the house when it was shot.
> 
> If this is correct then there was no need to kill the dog immediately and we have done ourselves no favours in doing so. This same mistake (destroying evidence before it has been examined) is made time and time again in cases of fatal dog attacks and it smacks more of revenge than of a reasoned approach.


But the outcome would have been the same at the end of the day! the dog would have been euthanased - whether the dog were on this occassion 'encouraged 'to attack we may never know!



lauren001 said:


> I would think that the police officers did not really know what to do with the dog and so took the easy way out by killing it.
> Any animal out of control and being in the hands of the police is at risk of being killed, despite I am sure it would be easily dealt with if it was under the hands of an experienced person.
> So escapees from abattoirs, dangerous dogs, escaped farm animals, zoo animals etc. all get shot if they are anywhere near the public at all, if no experienced handler steps forward to prevent it.
> 
> They weigh up risks to the public both real and imagined and if dead the dog is at no risk so they tend to take that course of action IMO.


Just about sums it up!



gorgeous said:


> Lets face it if the police never killed it, then it would have been pts very soon after.


Spot on!



Amethyst said:


> I think the police did the best thing in the given horrifying circumstances they were faced with. Certainly the best thing for this dog.
> 
> No dog that has attacked so viciously, has any future other than euthanasia. How can it? Whatever the reason it killed, it could never be re-homed ... It's future if taken away would be weeks or more likely months, even longer, in kennels, alone, as it was held as evidence. Little human contact for obvious reasons! No life at all then death waiting at the end
> 
> ...


Can I ask please what dogs you own and what experience you have of aggressive breeds? (edited to add! this post is made with relationto all previous posts you have made on this thread and NOTjust this one!)


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> Not sure what could be achieved by putting a dog through this? Asses it's personality? I think what it did (for whatever reason) shows, temperament was dubious. Why? I doubt this could ever be proven. Veterinary assessment? Maybe not a lot could be identified that a post mortem could not :confused1:


About four years ago an elderly lady was killed outside my house when she tried to cross the road and was struck by a car. The police, who were quickly in attendance, shut the road and, having taken the driver away for questioning, kept the road shut for another three hours while they inspected the car, the road surface and tried to assess the motorist's speed at the time of the accident by repeatedly driving his car up and down the same stretch of road and applying the brakes at different speeds and distances. What they didn't do was arrest the driver and send the car to be crushed without examination. In fact I can't think of any other fatality-causing incident where the main piece of evidence is destroyed before it can be examined. The need to examine evidence before drawing firm conclusions is so painfully obvious in every other case that it beggars belief that it is ignored in almost all dog-caused fatalities.

Why did this dog attack this woman at this time?

What was the trigger? How much of a role did poor breeding play in this tragedy? Or maybe poor socialisation or training? Could the victim have unwittingly contributed to her demise by provoking (in the dog's preception) the attack? How influencial was the owner's absence at the time? Did the dog view her as a threat to be neutralised or as prey to be subdued? What actions could the owner and the victim have taken to minimise the possibility of such an attack? Any theories will now be based on guesswork alone as we have destroyed the one piece of evidence that could have thrown light upon such questions.

If we don't learn lessons then we will repeat the same mistakes and if we keep doing the same thing then people will continue to die.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Johnderondon said:


> Any theories will now be based on guesswork alone as we have destroyed the one piece of evidence that could have thrown light upon such questions.


How would taking the dog away help? Genuinely, I can't work it out and I think extending dogs life as a piece of evidence, would simply be inhumane.

The dog would surely have had to be sedated with a dart, muzzled, crated and taken to secure kennels. It would wake up alone in a strange kennel, remain isolated, little human care and no interaction with other dogs, which it *seems* it may have been used to 

Any behaviour displayed in these circumstances would not seriously give any real indication of dogs temperament, how could it?

Personally I think keeping poor dog alive would throw little light on anything that couldn't be discovered anyway? The dog can't talk, the woman tragically died, really it is up to owner and other lady present to fill in the gaps. DNA testing will no doubt be done post mortem on dog?

Thankfully this dog is at peace now, not sitting alone in kennels waiting to be pts.


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## Lulu's owner (May 1, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> Thankfully this dog is at peace now, not sitting alone in kennels waiting to be pts.


I think I agree there. What useful purpose would it serve to examine the dog in depth? In 99 cases out of 100 there are the same human factors, chaotic lifestyles, drugs, neglect or abuse of dog, ditto treatment of children, encouragement of aggression in dog, etc. You might as well take the owner away as evidence and carry out research with them.


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## Guest (Dec 26, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> How would taking the dog away help? Genuinely, I can't work it out and I think extending dogs life as a piece of evidence, would simply be inhumane.
> 
> The dog would surely have had to be sedated with a dart, muzzled, crated and taken to secure kennels. It would wake up alone in a strange kennel, remain isolated, little human care and no interaction with other dogs, which it *seems* it may have been used to
> 
> ...


So now you are saying Thankfully the dog is at peace!
Your earlier posts did not indicate such! quite the opposite infact and that you were GLAD the dog were dead! (not the thoughts of a dog lover imo)

you, I , nor the whole world and its son do not know what this dog had to endure yet you made your assumptions!!

A few weeks ago I stood back on a dog! (one that has human agression tendacies) but would NEVER attack another dog! That dog ragged my foot (badly) I'll tell you now that were pretty scary but another dog of mine alerted by my panic jumped that dog so to speak! saving me from far worse injury!! but I'll tell you this for certainty - IF the police had been there at that stage it would have been that dog that would have paid with its life -and NOT the agreesive dog!

You have condomed many of us for putting our views forwards regarding this attack - perhaps you as much as us should be sure of the facts before you cast these assumptions!

Now I ask again -what knowledge do you have of dogs - and particuallary agressive dogs?


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> How would taking the dog away help?


It is possible to perform temperament and reactivity tests on a live dog that can't be done on a dead dog.



> Genuinely, I can't work it out and I think extending dogs life as a piece of evidence, would simply be inhumane.


Would it still be inhumane if it help us avoid further deaths?



> Any behaviour displayed in these circumstances would not seriously give any real indication of dogs temperament, how could it?


Yeah, it would. Competent behaviourists can make allowances for the change of enviroment and can still spot a fearful dog from a dominant dog, a resource guarder from a prey-driven dog, etc. It's something they do day in and day out with dogs seized under the DDA (if you are interested then here is some footage of a seized dog called Sam being assessed - you will note that despite the unfamiliar surroundings the dog's personality is still evident).



> really it is up to owner and other lady present to fill in the gaps. DNA testing will no doubt be done post mortem on dog?


There is a distinct possibilty that neither the owner nor the other lady are knowledgeable enough to give useful information. The owner's information, at least, must be viewed with great scepticism as he is under threat of prosecution. DNA testing can be useful for determining parentage and some inheritable disorders but not much else.


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## Guest (Dec 26, 2010)

johnderondon said:


> . Dna testing can be useful for determining parentage and some inheritable disorders but not much else.


exactly!!!!!!


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## Lulu's owner (May 1, 2009)

I honestly still can't see what is to be gained by testing the dog. Aren't the owners the problem?


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

We shall have to disagree on this one 

As Lulu's owner said, maybe better to take owner away as evidence ...


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## Guest (Dec 26, 2010)

Lulu's owner said:


> I honestly still can't see what is to be gained by testing the dog. Aren't the owners the problem?


Lulu!
Think you got that in one!:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Guest (Dec 26, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> We shall have to disagree on this one
> 
> As Lulu's owner said, maybe better to take owner away as evidence ...


Erm! so now it is the owners? you care to elaborate!


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Erm! so now it is the owners? you care to elaborate!


Has to be more effective than taking the dog


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

Lulu's owner said:


> I honestly still can't see what is to be gained by testing the dog. Aren't the owners the problem?


How can we tell now that we have destroyed the evidence? Do you know what made the dog attack this woman at this time? If the dog were still alive would we have more or less chance of answering that question?


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## Guest (Dec 26, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Has to be more effective than taking the dog


don't understand what you are saying!


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

What tests exactly can be done on the dog? Also what are they to do read the dog its rights?

The dog cannot talk,,,and no tests are going to reveal the reason behind the attack.....and the fact remains that the dog would be put down....


And as for taking the owner away, is that not what they have done?


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> don't understand what you are saying!


Probably because I wasn't sure what you were asking :blink:

Not to worry, I'm outta here, have to be out by 8 o clock, haven't been in shower yet :scared:

Catch you later ...............................................


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## Guest (Dec 26, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Probably because I wasn't sure what you were asking :blink:
> 
> Not to worry, I'm outta here, have to be out by 8 o clock, haven't been in shower yet :scared:
> 
> Catch you later ...............................................


I'll be waiting! 
Ain;t gonna roll over and die on this one!


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## Lulu's owner (May 1, 2009)

Johnderondon said:


> How can we tell now that we have destroyed the evidence? Do you know what made the dog attack this woman at this time? If the dog were still alive would we have more or less chance of answering that question?


No, I don't know what made the dog attack the woman at that precise moment, but there were quite likely witnesses to the attack, as there are in the majority of dog attacks. However, from neighbours' accounts it seems that the dog was very ill-treated. Do we need to know much more than that? Add to this the fact that the man was arrested for drug offences the dog was probably being used primarily as a guard dog.

My guess is that if the dog were still alive, treated humanely and trained properly it would not attack in a possibly random fashion. I obviously realise that this is not permissible and we must punish the dog for human failings.


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

gorgeous said:


> What tests exactly can be done on the dog?


Temperament assessments. Did I not make that clear already?



> Also what are they to do read the dog its rights?


I'm sorry. Is this a serious question or an attempt at humour?



> The dog cannot talk,,,and no tests are going to reveal the reason behind the attack.....


Dogs do communicate and tests can reveal temperament flaws. Temperament assessments are not guaranteed to reveal useful information but there is a good chance they will and there is zero chance if they are not even attempted.



> and the fact remains that the dog would be put down....


And?


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

Lulu's owner said:


> Do we need to know much more than that?


Yes, if we want to understand what transpired. I can think of two child deaths in recent years (Ellie Lawrenson and Archie-Lee Hirst) where it is still suspected that the dogs _may_ have killed in play. When trying to work out the chain of events that led to these deaths that would be useful information to have, don't you agree?



> My guess is that if the dog were still alive, treated humanely and trained properly it would not attack in a possibly random fashion.


I think you are probably right but a woman has tragically died and think we owe it to her and ourselves to make every effort to discern the facts surrounding that death. Destroying the main piece of evidence doesn't help us do that.



> I obviously realise that this is not permissible and we must punish the dog for human failings


For sure. It is the fate of all dogs that kill humans that they must die because they have demonstrated that they cannot live safely in a human world. However, as you say, the killing of such dogs should be done with full recognition of the human failings that produced them and allowed their fatal potential to be realised. It should be an act of sadness and not revenge.


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## Lulu's owner (May 1, 2009)

Johnderondon said:


> Yes, if we want to understand what transpired. I can think of two child deaths in recent years (Ellie Lawrenson and Archie-Lee Hirst) where it is still suspected that the dogs _may_ have killed in play. When trying to work out the chain of events that led to these deaths that would be useful information to have, don't you agree?


I see your point that it's not necessarily always aggression that leads to child deaths, though I would have thought it would usually be jealousy and/or unfamiliarity with small children (often the child is in the care of grandparents at the time, though admittedly I can't remember the precise details of the two cases you have quoted). However, if adults would only abide by the rule to never, ever allow a small child to be alone (or inadequately supervised by another child) with a dog, deaths of that kind wouldn't happen.

Secondly, even if some dogs have killed in play, what difference would it make to public attitudes to large dogs? You might hope that it would persuade people to think carefully about their choice of dog, but I doubt it. A dog that becomes overexcited and kills a child in play is, I would think, a dog that's not getting enough play and stimulation on a day to day basis and isn't adequately socialised with small humans to understand the boundaries. So again, proper care and management of the dog is at the root of tragedy prevention, to my mind, no need to use a dog on death row as a lab rat.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

I actually agree with Johnderondon. It's like this tbh. If someone say started beating me up in front of our Barney and they did not stop, he would enevitably attack.. He is a giant breed, and an amazingly strong dog - the damage he could do if pushed would be pretty bad. If the police turned up and I wasn't there, Barney was mauling the person and they started hitting him with shields he would either try to run and if he couldnt he would fight. But under no other circumstances would Barney show any form of aggression, I can guess that if not shot by the police he would be fine pretty soon afterwards. There was a child and a puppy and another person in that house. No one knows what happened. If the dog had been allowed to survive and placed with top behaviourists who knew what they were doing, it could have been proven to be the opposite dog than the one portrayed by the media. They could have been able to reach a more solid conclusion based on the dogs behaviour around other people/animals instead of just saying it was a nasty vicious dog. Of course the dog would have to be muzzled but in reality a muzzle isnt the worst thing in the world. In the end, he would have to be put down but assessments on his behaviour that would eventually be released tp the public could have paved the path for stopping breed descrimination and the need to understand your dogs behaviour. That opportunity is now gone and now we will never know if that was a rare occurance/ if there was a trigger for the dog and he, along with other big dogs will be labelled as evil by britains ever growing population of muppets. Sorry if this doesnt make sense lols im tierd  :lol: x


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

Buster's Mummy said:


> So in case my thread wasn't clear enough
> 
> The police DID what they HAD to do so the killing was ACCEPTABLE but if they had done what they were EMPLOYED to do in the first place when the neighbour noticed WARNING signs it WOULDN'T have happened! The dog HAD to be killed but people do not have to celebrate this fact on a PET FORUM :thumbup:


It was clear

I cant beleive someone would say that any life at any age is worse than the other, its still a life lost and still means families are grieveing, its an awful situation, even if the woman chose to live as someone put it in a house where there was drugs and dog abuse going on, maybe this poor woman had little choice, financial reasons may be who knows but shes lost her life poor poor woman and poor dog as hes obviously suffered in some way, even if it was only at the point of attack he got spooked, hes lost his life too no dog wants to attack, something in his mind wasnt right, so yes before im told otherwise he would have been in a state, so no winners here at all


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

Johnderondon said:


> Temperament assessments. Did I not make that clear already?
> 
> I'm sorry. Is this a serious question or an attempt at humour?
> 
> ...


I am no dog expert but the dog clearly has a temperament flaw - it killed a woman!

I am not attempting any humour -a young woman has lost her life and a dog has also died as a resuly...IMO that is nothing to laugh about...

However I really do not see where keeping the dog alive would put pieces together to find out why the dog killed....


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

In an ideal world the dog would have been taken off the woman alive and then assessed by behavioural therapists, i dont know what that would have achieved but when a dog goes crazy like this, there is no option other than to kill it im sure, or else the police would have done so, they couldnt risk others lives and im sure thought that by killing the dog they would have been able to save the lady

This dog would have had such power behind it as in its feenzied state would have gained more power behind his actions than normally

Two of my dogs have fought like crazy no where near as big as this dog and my god trying to stop this fight took me and my hubby alol our strength and wore both of us out, now this was 2 dogs intent on hurting each other not another human, so if there had been that added threat we would have found our selves really struggling, this dog would probably have turned on any human that tried to intervene and so the risk would have been seen as way too high, especially given the dogs size and strength


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think that the police are not too concerned about the whys and wherefores, they have a "murderer", the "murderer" is now dead and the case is closed really as regards the dog itself. 
The peripheral case around the owner will almost be a totally separate thing.

Animals are always dispensable, whether it is fair or not is never taken into consideration when the law is involved. If human life is at risk then the fact it was goaded, or it was merely defending or it was scared isn't taken into consideration when judgements are made. They even put down pups or dogs that are perfectly well behaved if they are found to be a certain breed, so a dog with a "history" has no chance.

I feel that they really do not care about why this dog or other violent dogs act like they do, that is why they are disposed of on the spot or soon after. I think partly it is because they do not want to have public campaigns to save "Tyson" or "Rex", if they were found later to be perfectly harmless dogs put into bad situations or they were just "playing".


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

gorgeous said:


> I am no dog expert but the dog clearly has a temperament flaw - it killed a woman!


But we have no idea as to the nature of that flaw or how it was acquired. We can make guesses but temperament testing would have afforded us a wealth of information. Information that may have helped us to better understand what caused the dog to act as it did. If we don't try to understand then we've precious little chance of avoiding similar tragedies.



lauren001 said:


> I think that the police are not too concerned about the whys and wherefores, they have a "murderer", the "murderer" is now dead and the case is closed really as regards the dog itself.


I agree. It's a crying shame and an attitude that lead to swift 'justice' for Jim Rehill's dog.


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