# Another Scam?



## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

Magnificent Baby Ragdoll kittens ready for sale in South Yorkshire :: Kittenads

Have Emailed the person and said I thought that GCCF rules state kittens have to go after 12 weeks.

I must admit before I joined here I didn't know that, but they should


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## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

After reading this ad for kitten i was always led to believe that kittens didnt have their second jab until they were 12 weeks of age, if im correct how can a 10 week old kitten be fully vaccinated?


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_your right, they shouldnt go to new homes yet they are to young._


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

GCCF have guidelines on this, not rules, so although you'd be acting against their wishes if you let them go earlier, you're not specifically breaking rules. However, this is frowned upon, and it may well be worth reporting them to one of the clubs.


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## ChinaBlue (Feb 3, 2008)

That is supposing they are members of a club, which most likely they are not.

Let us know if they come back to you about selling them at 10 weeks. Wonder if they do really hold a prefix.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I asked what their prefix is. Find myself wondering if it's on one of the suspended lists...


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Wonder if they do really hold a prefix


I can't see where they claim they do.

From the Code of Ethics


> The GCCF strongly recommends that no kitten should be permitted to go to a new home before 13 weeks of age. A least seven days prior to this the kitten should have completed a full course of vaccinations, including a health check, given by a Veterinary Surgeon or by a listed Veterinary nurse given under the direction of a Veterinary Surgeon. The breeder should ensure that the kittens are house trained, inoculated and in good general health.


The 13 weeks of age comes from the 9 & 12 week vaccination schedule plus a week. As some brands of vaccine can be used from 6 weeks this would lead to a second dose at 9 weeks so add on a week and miraculously you'll come out with 10 week old kittens.

Not saying I like it or that I'd do it but they're doing nothing wrong.


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## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

I must say in there defence that their kittens do look very clean and healthy, ive seen a lot worse and from so called reputable breeders................Chris


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

> All kittens leave at 10 weeks old. *Gccf *reg, health guarantee, vaccinated, litter trained. Home raised sweethearts, friendly, outgoing companions for any age. s, references available, on going advice. Pets only .*GccfRegistered *Ragdoll Kittens for sale.


It says GCCF twice.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> It says GCCF twice.


It says 'GCCF reg' which is the normal abbreviation for GCCF registered kittens and then in the description it goes on to say 'GCCF registered Ragdoll kittens for sale'. What's wrong with that if the kittens are GCCF registered? This appears to be a perfectly honest ad to me.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

This is the subtitle line of the GCCF Code of Ethics


> *Registered owners of all GCCF registered cats/kittens accept the jurisdiction of The Governing Council of the Cat Fancy and undertake to abide by this general code of ethics.*


It matters not one jot whether somebody breeding from GCCF registered cats has paid their £75 for a prefix for them to have 'accepted the jurisdiction of the GCCF'. It applies to all breeders and owners. If you check the suspension lists you will find the prefix column is empty in a large proportion of entries because ownership of a prefix is not necessary for disciplinary action in the case of wrongdoing.


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

I have had no reply


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I have had no reply


Are you surprised? You've questioned them on a rule which doesn't exist and somebody else has asked them for their prefix which they've not even claimed to have.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

GCCF registered implies a prefix, but you are correct - kittens can be registered under an administrative prefix.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> GCCF registered implies a prefix


Really? Why? What terminology would you prefer non-prefix holders use to describe kittens which are GCCF registered? And I'm fairly sure I'm correct as I've been breeding for nearly 40 years now, served on more than one club committee and seen beautiful champion cats bred by fantastic breeders who don't hold prefixes.

There seems to be a real misunderstanding about the whole prefix thing. Anyone can join a cat club and then apply for a prefix. Some clubs require you to keep membership up for more than one year for the secretary to sign your prefix application form, many don't. Either way you send your form into the club secretary who signs it and it's sent on to the GCCF with a cheque. It's an administrative process. The GCCF then checks that the prefix name you have chosen is within the rules and not too similar to any existing prefix.

It has become the norm for new breeders to buy their prefix before they've ever bred a litter. How can it mean they are somehow approved breeders? You don't even have to own a cat for goodness sake.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I know all that is true, but this breeder is using GCCF (twice) in his advert and clearly says their kittens are registered with the GCCF. So, either they have a prefix or the kittens are registered under the administrative prefix. And regardless of if they have their own prefix or are using the administrative one, I'd say that selling GCCF registered kittens means they are bound (or should be) by the GCCF code of ethics which includes:



> The GCCF strongly recommends that no kitten should be permitted to go to a new home before 13 weeks of age. A least seven days prior to this the kitten should have completed a full course of vaccinations, including a health check, given by a Veterinary Surgeon or by a listed Veterinary nurse given under the direction of a Veterinary Surgeon. The breeder should ensure that the kittens are house trained, inoculated and in good general health.


http://www.gccfcats.org/pdf/ethics.pdf

There is no way a 10-week old kitten can have completed "a full course of vaccinations".

BTW checked my email and there is no reply from the breeder.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

They are bound by the code of ethics. As you have so helpfully reposted the relevant section you'll see there is no rule, only a recommendation. I still don't understand your point about prefixes. You said you were going to see if theirs was on the suspension list. Do you expect to see the admin prefix on there?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

If they are on one of the suspension lists and don't have a prefix of their own their name and address (at the time of suspension) will be there but not the administrative prefix.

But I bet I never get a reply to my email asking what their prefix is. If they don't have one they can say they use the administrative ones, though since it costs £9 more to register a kitten against an administrative prefix you are ahead financially after 9 kittens if you have your own prefix.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

250 pounds for a registered pedigree ragdoll? Is this a normal cost in the UK? Strikes me as odd, registered Ragdoll prices are 600&#8364; and up here. Not that there's more than just a few breeders of them, but still. I'm glad it's illegal here to take any kitten away from the mother before 12 weeks of age.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> since it costs £9 more to register a kitten against an administrative prefix you are ahead financially after 9 kittens if you have your own prefix.


At last. One of the real reasons people get their own prefix, because it's financially advantageous. This reasoning would of course mark somebody out as a better breeder.

The *vast majority* of prefix holders join a club for the minimum amount of time required to get their prefix form signed. They never do anything with or for the club. On the hand there are wonderful club members who do not hold a prefix, help out at shows, attend AGMs and have a real interest.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

The 13 week period is a strong recommendation, not a rule. A breeder can't break a rule if that rule doesn't exist in the first place.

As for being GCCF registered, seeing that on an advert shouldn't automatically make people assume that a breeder has a prefix, nor that that breeder is better because they do hold a prefix. Some of the worst breeders I've come across rely on a reputation they built in their early days with their prefix and now think they don't have to uphold the same standards because the prefix will do their marketting for them.

So, although I don't like this practice, would never do it myself and would not buy from someone who did it either, they aren't officially doing anything wrong which could warrant a disciplinary.

Just to make it perfectly clear, I am not condoning this in any way. I just think it's important that people read things thoroughly before coming to conclusions. It's fine to say that someone's a less than satisfactory breeder for letting them go early, just as it's fine to have criticisms about BYBs. It's also fine to understand that some BYBs can and do register their kittens with the GCCF. But it must be clearly understood that this doesn't break GCCF rules. Why? Because they won't make the 13 week period an official rule. Perhaps they should, as it would likely cut down on this happening so frequently.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

HeartofClass said:


> 250 pounds for a registered pedigree ragdoll? Is this a normal cost in the UK? Strikes me as odd, registered Ragdoll prices are 600 and up here. Not that there's more than just a few breeders of them, but still. I'm glad it's illegal here to take any kitten away from the mother before 12 weeks of age.


No. It's far too cheap for a 13-week kitten.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Another reason is that your cats are immediatly obviously your cats, on the bench and in subsequent pedigrees. To be honest, £9 in the overall cost of breeding cats is nothing. Possibly the advent of the Internet and the ease of making websites makes having one's own prefix more desirable as well.

As to people joining and leaving as soon as the form is signed - similar things happen in clubs of all kinds. A small number of people do all the work.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Certainly a scam. Look at the English, the contradictions (3-6 months? 10 weeks?), the punctuation, the claim that it is in two separate areas (North East, South Yorkshire), the price, the term "magnificent" to describe kittens, and the very fact that it is on kittenads (next time kittenads call me asking if they can put my ad on their site I will be saying no and will tell them why)

Liz


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> (next time kittenads call me asking if they can put my ad on their site I will be saying no and will tell them why)


Aren't they FridayAds or FreeAds just under a different name? Do they charge for ads? I ask because I've never heard of any of these sites making sales calls but then I haven't used them.


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## carolmanycats (May 18, 2009)

If, as people are suspecting, it is a scam, then theb photos are probably of other breeders' kittens


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

havoc said:


> Aren't they FridayAds or FreeAds just under a different name? Do they charge for ads? I ask because I've never heard of any of these sites making sales calls but then I haven't used them.


I don't know about any connection to Freeads ir Fridayads but several tiems when I have had kittens for sale on pets4homes they have called and asked if they could put it on their site as well and of course I said yes, but now that I have worked out that their site is mainly scams, next time it's no. These scams are rather easy to spot after all.

Liz


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

looks like a scam to me,the language screams scam!


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## lisa306 (Oct 3, 2010)

carolmanycats said:


> If, as people are suspecting, it is a scam, then theb photos are probably of other breeders' kittens


There is a add on pets4homes, using another breeders picture, I know because I have seen the picture on fb (friend of a friend) I just texted to see if it was available and got a text back saying yes.... lol

How do people get away with this, i dont know!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> How do people get away with this, i dont know!


Maybe because if it is a proven scam people would rather vent their righteous indignation on forums than report it to Trading Standards. I do understand the point about the language but I know of at least three breeders (various breeds) of Eastern European origin. English is not their first language and one was hounded because somebody decided to cause them problems on a forum for no other reason than their ad sounded 'foreign'. Luckily that one was traced and the perpetrator cautioned.


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## kudagirl (Jan 24, 2012)

Hi,
Maybe there is no prefix because the kitten for sale at 250 pounds is not up to show standers,there for they are unwilling to use there prefix at this sale ( just a thought).


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

The text says the kittens are GCCF registered. So, there is a prefix - either their own or an administrative one. Except I suspect it's a great big lie that they have registered the kittens.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Is the scam that there are kittens at all then? I'm confused.


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

I don't get why people get their knickers in a twist about these things, surely if you think it's dodgy you can report it if not then move on, they will always be scams as long as their are people *to* scam.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I have to say I'm not convinced it's a complete scam - I've just looked on KittenAds and their form for filling in is odd and difficult and makes you sound like a dollard anyway. So they possibly are a proper breeder, using active registered cats, using an administrative prefix and just selling kittens a little too early - or maybe not. 

Just be careful peeps about throwing around scam accusations with no proof (liable and deformation laws and all that) - I know with some ads it is SO obvious because the cats look nothing like what they are meant to be but just be careful, these look like proper ragdolls and until you find them on another breeders website you have no proof.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I actually got a reply! But not one telling me what the prefix is. Apparently the Isle of Man is now in England... And a courier service has been mentioned...

I've replied pointing out they haven't answered my question.

And I've not used any of my normal email addresses.

It now has 'scam' written all over it as do quite a few other adverts on kittenads.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> It now has 'scam' written all over it as do quite a few other adverts on kittenads.


So what are you going to do about it?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Am thinking of indulging in some scam-baiting. I have no idea if kittenads is interested or not.


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> Am thinking of indulging in some scam-baiting. I have no idea if kittenads is interested or not.


Could maybe not find something more constructive to do with your time


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

I have asked for this thread to be closed due to the nature of some of the comments.

I thank those of you that have clarified that it's a recommendation not a rule, and that some vets may vaccinate at 6 and 9 weeks therefore Kittens can go at 10 weeks.

Best wishes

Jo


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