# Orijen - Your thoughts



## Maistaff (Dec 27, 2009)

I have just purchased a bag of Orijen for my three dogs to see how we get on. 

I just wondered what everyone's opinion of this food is.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Top notch food, give them around the minimum of the feeding guidelines its usually enough as its so good. Dont over feed on it as it will be wasted - ending in slippy poos. You migh experience a little wind until they fully adjust  What are you wanting to know in particular?


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## Maistaff (Dec 27, 2009)

james1 said:


> Top notch food, give them around the minimum of the feeding guidelines its usually enough as its so good. Dont over feed on it as it will be wasted - ending in slippy poos. You migh experience a little wind until they fully adjust  What are you wanting to know in particular?


Thank you

TBH i always feed the lower amount on all my dog foods as i find them overly generous!

I was just curious as to how many people feed it and how they find their dogs on it. e.g have they improved in condition and general well being

Also value for money is another thing as i will be feeding three on it . But that said i have been looking at it feel i will be able to feed it alone without needing to suppliment their diets with added chicken wings, oils and fish etc


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Quite a few feed it on here - the price works about about the same as any othe 15kg kibble costing 40 pounds. If you go by Orijens feeding guide and not your regular kibble you should find it lasts just as long if not longer. For me if someone is paying 40+ pounds for their food Orijen outmatches them as far as ingredients without doubt, well worth the money.
You dont have to suppliment them no - its just your general habits that youll need to curb if you have been doing this - dogs will eat and eat (springers will at least) but with this its really not needed. Coat condition is good - not dry, energy levels arent affected in the least, they are a lot more settled and attentive to be honest, you should see them desperate for their food bowls as its basically all good meat - a 3 course dinner in one  good food as I say 
A few sites offering good deals on it are Gjwtitmus, mumsandpets, and mutley and mog - all cost about 46 pounds delivered, if you find any offers on other sites (non uk sites) mutley and mog often match them.
2nd edit; there is a member on here whos dog has a sensitive stomach (grain intollerance i think) she has put them on this and her dog is now eating after having turned down a variety of foods..


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

james1 said:


> Quite a few feed it on here - the price works about about the same as any othe 15kg kibble costing 40 pounds. If you go by Orijens feeding guide and not your regular kibble you should find it lasts just as long if not longer. For me if someone is paying 40+ pounds for their food Orijen outmatches them as far as ingredients without doubt, well worth the money.
> You dont have to suppliment them no - its just your general habits that youll need to curb if you have been doing this - dogs will eat and eat (springers will at least) but with this its really not needed. Coat condition is good - not dry, energy levels arent affected in the least, they are a lot more settled and attentive to be honest, you should see them desperate for their food bowls as its basically all good meat - a 3 course dinner in one  good food as I say
> A few sites offering good deals on it are Gjwtitmus, mumsandpets, and mutley and mog - all cost about 46 pounds delivered, if you find any offers on other sites (non uk sites) mutley and mog often match them.
> 2nd edit; there is a member on here whos dog has a sensitive stomach (grain intollerance i think) she has put them on this and her dog is now eating after having turned down a variety of foods..


You used to feed burns? do you prefer orijen to burns


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

My boys scavenged on this. They were fed 300 grams a day (16kg dogs). Changed back to Arden Grange and the scavenging stopped. Plenty people are happy with their dogs on orijen, it seems to be good stuff but it didnt suit my boys.


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## dvnbiker (Dec 2, 2009)

My dogs were changed to this earlier in the year as it is the only complete that my youngster will eat (she starved herself on other premium kibbles), they all queue up for their dinner and its gone in seconds. 

Their coats are glowing, I dont have hyperactive dogs due to the protein level despite the old wives tales and I am constantly getting remarked on how good they look - that speaks for itself as far as I am concerned.


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

Its very good stuff. The only dry kibble which doesnt upset Hedley. Nice firm poos, it also helped with his toilet training as he began to last through the night after changing to Orijen, as he pooped a lot less. When you first start on it introduce it gently, as you will get a few smelly farts, but these subside as they get used to it. I cant praise it highly enough.


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## maxandskye (Jan 31, 2009)

Fantastic food, what can I say !!

I feed my 4 month old GSD the large breed puppy Orijen, he loves it.

My 4 yr old GSD Heidi is on the 6 fish one as she is Atopic.

4 yr old GSD Harvey has the chicken Orijen & his coat is amazing.

I carnt rate this food highly enough, I would reccommend it to anyone.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> You used to feed burns? do you prefer orijen to burns


Yes I used to feed them Burns up to about 6 months of age but was looking around at other kibbles, compared prices and ingredients and thought id give it a go, been using it for about 5 months now. Your not paying for any rice, wheat, maize or corn with orijen (realise Burns only use rice) which I thought was a plus as far as value was concerned. The variety of meats used too are simply fantastic, their cooking process retains more of the nutients too. It costs about 6 pounds more than Burns and is well worth it. It lasts just as long even though the bag is smaller (13.5kg) so for the extra 1 pound per week im a bit of a convert definitely


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## The Cats Mother (Feb 27, 2009)

Yes, if you are going to feed kibble exclusively as opposed to a wet diet (which in my opinion is the best) or even as a supplement to wet (be it canned or raw and I think raw is best of all) then Orijen is one of the better ones because it doesn't contain grain. However be aware that whilst the packet/advertising blurb would have us believe it is made from all fresh food is does contain rendered product ("meal" in the ingredients listing). Rendered product can be dead, diseased and dying cattle or meat from slaughterhouses which is unfit for human consumption, bakery waste (there's that grain again) and greasetrap waste. At one stage (may still be doing I don't know) Champion Petfoods, the manufacturers, were using a U.S. based rendering plant called Griffin Industries Welcome to Griffin Industries
Greasetrap waste seems to be one of their specialities 

Of course it is no longer for sale in Australia since it was implicated in the deaths of some 30 cats and the paralysis of 70+ others this time last year due to its being gamma irradiated to pass Australia's strict quarantine requirements (due to the low temp, slow cooking process). Champion Petfoods maintained that they did not know about the gamma irradiation prior to the products reaching retail shelves, however documents obtained under the Australian Freedom of Information Act showed that their Australian distributor sought their go-ahead before agreeing to the optional process (the other option being further heat treatment or don't import it at all). Champion maintained Aust Quarantine mandated the process and there was no choice - this is absolutely not the case. I have investigated this thoroughly with Australian Quarantine and am still in communication with them about safety studies. It was the Freedom of Information documents which provided the information about Griffin Industries as well.

Champion Petfoods are notoriously difficult to deal with and obtain replies to emails when there is a problem. And after the link was indisputably made to the food by vets, they took over three months to withdraw it and threatened the vets with litigation. The vet neurologist in charge of the cats has gone on record with this. Given that it takes 4 months from commencement of feeding for the effects of irradiated diet to manifest in cats, many more cats were exposed and affected than needed to be. Needless to say, Australians do not have a high opinion of this company as a result. Whilst your dogs thrive, Champion Petfoods will be happy to answer your questions. I hope you never have any issues with the food though, they will likely threaten litigation and become very difficult to deal with.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

The Cats Mother said:


> Rendered product can be dead, diseased and dying cattle or meat from slaughterhouses which is unfit for human consumption, bakery waste (there's that grain again) and greasetrap waste.


dont talk rubbish, your research is wrong, there was issue with 'meal' in cattle feeds which lead to a turnaround in production content. In pet foods this has never been the case.
There are a variety of ways pet food list their ingredients: named source meal or un-named derivaties. Meal is fine derivatives are not. There is a lot of misconception about this and writing things like this will put anybody off. The plain and simple fact is that its wrong. Sorry to be so direct but it needs clearing up before anyone gets a vomit attack.

edit lol:

And btw. The reason why cats died after owners fed Orijen to their cats in AUSTRALIA is because AUSTRALIA irradiates any foodstuff coming into their country to stop diseases! This caused excessive levels of radiation inducing morbidity! AGAIN if you do a little more research this is very easliy found. You should also find the Orijen/Cham pet foods compensated the owners - even though it was not ther fault! Again it was the Ozzy Government legislation that was/is in the wrong

Orijen is not manufactured in the US it is manufactured in Alberta Canada - Canada regulates pet food production more so than any other country so I believe due to its legislation.


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## Maistaff (Dec 27, 2009)

Thank you all for your replies and positive reviews on the food.

I am hoping the bag i odered will arrive any day now


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

The Cats Mother said:


> Yes, if you are going to feed kibble exclusively as opposed to a wet diet (which in my opinion is the best) or even as a supplement to wet (be it canned or raw and I think raw is best of all) then Orijen is one of the better ones because it doesn't contain grain. However be aware that whilst the packet/advertising blurb would have us believe it is made from all fresh food is does contain rendered product ("meal" in the ingredients listing). Rendered product can be dead, diseased and dying cattle or meat from slaughterhouses which is unfit for human consumption, bakery waste (there's that grain again) and greasetrap waste. At one stage (may still be doing I don't know) Champion Petfoods, the manufacturers, were using a U.S. based rendering plant called Griffin Industries Welcome to Griffin Industries
> Greasetrap waste seems to be one of their specialities
> 
> Of course it is no longer for sale in Australia since it was implicated in the deaths of some 30 cats and the paralysis of 70+ others this time last year due to its being gamma irradiated to pass Australia's strict quarantine requirements (due to the low temp, slow cooking process). Champion Petfoods maintained that they did not know about the gamma irradiation prior to the products reaching retail shelves, however documents obtained under the Australian Freedom of Information Act showed that their Australian distributor sought their go-ahead before agreeing to the optional process (the other option being further heat treatment or don't import it at all). Champion maintained Aust Quarantine mandated the process and there was no choice - this is absolutely not the case. I have investigated this thoroughly with Australian Quarantine and am still in communication with them about safety studies. It was the Freedom of Information documents which provided the information about Griffin Industries as well.
> ...


First Ive heard of this. What is your source?


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

alysonandhedley said:


> First Ive heard of this. What is your source?


Its been mentioned a few times - mostly be people who only post once a year or who never bother posting again. Im not sure if its other pet companies trying to 'put down' opposing foods by creating uncertainty. What usually follows is a recommendation of another food - even when the other food is obviously naff when you look at it. 
I also dont see how in an independent food review, it won best food in all classes for 2009/10, id say something may have been spotted if it were bad? lol
I dont understand how 'thecatsmother' can say


The Cats Mother said:


> Orijen is one of the better ones


 but:
1/ have issue that meal products use ground up diseased/decaying animals: *false*
2/ that its killed pets: *false; the legislative practice of Australia necessitates irradiation of imported foods*
3/ that its made in the US: *false; its made in Canada and use locally sourced foods*
4/ that they are a bad company: *false; they research more than any other company on the whole and are renound for it, the emails I have sent them too are very informative in reply*

Either its a good food or it isnt - either it uses good products or it doesnt - you recommend it or you dont.!

canuckjill is a moderator on here - their comments can be seen a little down the page - might be a little reassurance
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/12981-orijen-pet-food.html

I cant stand members scaring people with posts like this - really gets on my nerves. I feed it mine and I dont give them anything lighly no matter what I get them. I have a dog worth tens of thousands so dont mess about and I hold a Masters in Research (for what its worth) so compare and compare by nature - though the info is easily found by anyone really if you want to look for it


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## The Cats Mother (Feb 27, 2009)

Here are my sources:

*Orijen product/ingredient sources*
Documents released under the Australian Freedom of Information Act appertaining to the application for import licence and shipments made to Australia by Champion Petfoods during 2007-2008.
https://www.box.net/shared/nbzrdmzxyk

*Pdf file 2* in the online folder at box.net contains the documents released under FOI
*Pdf file 1* contains all correspondence in relation to the application for the documents
*Pdf file 3* contains all follow-up correspondence with the Government department appertaining to questions and clarification of the documents released under FOI

Please refer to pdf file 2, documents released under FOI:-

*Page 25* is a certificate of origin certifying fresh material of animal origin collected from animals United States Dept of Agriculture inspected plants and slaughtered in the USA and declared inedible. The Government has censored certain words/phrases however there is sufficient information there to lead one to conclude that this refers to a material derived from animals not fit for human consumption from US farms (note the words "these or other farms")

*Page 26* is a certification that some form of poultry or poultry product is derived from the US Dept of Agriculture poultry processing plants associated with broiler production.

*Page 34* shows the Griffin Industries certification. I have already posted a link to their websitein a previous post. They are located in the USA.

(So much for fresh never frozen local Canadian product.)

Certainly Orijen, the finished product, is manufactured in Canada.
The ingredients, however, are neither all locally sourced nor fresh as the company claims in its advertising statements or on the front of the packet. Furthermore, the US sourced meal is at the top of the list of ingredients on the reverse of the pack, indicating its greater percentage above the other fresh Canadian sourced products listed below. (Page 40 of documents)

*Orijen gamma irradiation - whose liability*
May I draw attention to *Page 52*. This document is an email dated Monday 30 July 2007 from Australian Quarantine explaining why Orijen does not meet Australian Quarantine requirements. The quarantine officer explains that the only available option (note the word "option") is to have the product gamma irradiated at 50kGy upon arrival in Australia. The alternative option is to reject the application for import licence and not import the food. At no time was the importer "forced" to irradiate the food nor was it done without the importer's knowledge. The importer is required to sign a waiver form for the sterilising facility indemnifying Australian Quarantine against any effects and in fact there is a clear statement in this email to the effect that the importer takes full responsibility for any effects on the product or the packaging.

*Page 53* is an email from the importer advising Australian Quarantine that he has informed the manufacturer of the required process and is awaiting their response.

*Page 54* is an email from the importer advising Australian Quarantine that he has discussed the required treatment process with the manufacturer and that they are in agreement to proceed with the process and bear the cost. This is dated 6 August 2007.

*Did Champion have prior knowledge of the irradiation process*
As part of _my research_ into what really happened, I had a telephone conversation with one of the company owners the night my cat was diagnosed,18 December 2008. This was the Marketing Manager, Peter Muhlenfeld, who swore they didn't know about the irradiation until August 2008 when they got the invoices for the process and began investigating because they were so shocked at the costs, some $10,000 per container. 
However the documents released under FOI imply their knowledge and complicity in the process a whole year prior, in August 2007. I documented the contents of the telephone conversation and swore a witnessed statutory declaration of their veracity in case of future legal action.

Posts were made by Champion on another pet forum where they denied all prior knowledge of the irradiation of their food, saying that they did not know about the irradiation until after it was on the Australian market. Here are links to the relevant posts on that forum: (I don't know if cross posting to other forums is permitted and this might get deleted by the mods but anyone interested can PM me and I will provide privately)

*Post #240 Page 17 by Clark Stride of Champion Petfoods*
http://itchmoforums.com/news-recall-related/problems-with-orijen-in-australia-t6985.240.html

*Post #427 on Page 29 by Clark Stride*
http://itchmoforums.com/news-recall-related/problems-with-orijen-in-australia-t6985.420.html

In the second post, Champion lay the blame at their importers feet (as if they wouldn't be closely monitoring what was happening to their food on its debut in a new market...really) The importer as identified in the FOI docs is Renasence Marketing Pty Ltd.

I learned during the course of _my research_, that the importer deregistered his company with the Australian Security and Investments Commission in November 2009, thus effectively removing himself from any possibility of legal recourse.

*Opportunity of test run of product irradiation refused*
Furthermore, as part of _my research,_ I spoke directly with the CEO of Steritech, the gamma irradiation facility, Mr George West, on 30 January 2009. He advised me that as part of their standard procedure, every new importer is offered a free sample run through the irradiation plant so that they can take their product away and have it analysed. In this case, that offer was rejected. Mr West said it is most unusual for any importer to reject this offer. He also said that he had heard the figure of $10,000 per container being bandied about and the costs of irradiation were nowhere near this, he wished it was. He declined to give details of the costs involved because it would breach client confidentiality.

*Whose legal liability*
As part of _my research,_ I spoke to around 22 legal firms. The three that were interested in taking on the case spoke of various ways to pursue the issue, one being negligence, the manufacturer being responsible for the condition of its product from factory plant to feeding bowl. From the FOI documents it can be seen that Australian Quarantine is clear in its instructions to importers that the liability for the product is the importer's and manufacturer's and not theirs.

*Australian Quarantine's responsibility*
In the course of _my research_, I have amassed a file of over 200 emails to and from AQIS. At all times Australian Quarantine have made it clear that the condition of any product and the safety of animal food is not its responsibility. Australian Quarantine's sole function is to ensure that products entering Australia do not present any risk in terms of pathogens which could damage flora or fauna and have a number of methods they use to manage such risks. They do not of themselves mandate any treatment whatsoever, and do not make any recommendation nor take any liability for the safety or wholesomeness of any product after any treatment option they offer is taken up by an importer. Australian Quarantine rely on advice from Biosecurity Australia in providing options for importers to treat their products. The emails that I have stating this are not in pdf format but I can arrange to provide if anyone wishes to read them.

*Clarification of what is irradiated coming into Australia*
Australian Quarantine does not irradiate "any foodstuff coming into its country". What is the reference source for this inaccurate generalisation? The FOI documents are clear what the requirements are = 100 degrees Celsius moist heat treatment for 30 minutes, as I learned during the course of _my research_. Any product undergoing this during production (most pet foods) do not require any further treatment.

In the course of _my research_, I also learned that the only human foodstuffs undergoing gamma irradiation are herbs and spices, certain herbal infusions, and nine tropical fruits: mango, mangosteen, paw paw, lychee, custard apple, breadfruit, carambola, longan and rambutan and that irradiation of human foodstuffs is overseen by FSANZ (Food Standards Australia and New Zealand) and not Australian Quarantine.

In the course of _my research_, I turned to the issue of Biosecurity Australia's having a responsibility or at least a duty of care to ensure that any treatment protocols it recommends have undergone sufficient safety reviews. It has taken me nearly nine months to get straight answers to questions regarding the 50kGy irradiation level. Finally I received these on 25 November. Here is the link to that document:

https://www.box.net/shared/7o3slmblc8

*Compensation*
The statement that Champion Petfoods compensated the owners is misleading and an inaccurate generalisation. What is the reference source for this inaccurate generalisation? Champion Petfoods set up a Compassion Fund capped at $2000 per cat. In some cases this was sufficient to recompense some owners but for many other owners was insufficient and a fair proportion have ongoing expenses to rehabilitate their cats which have not been met. Even though some cases were reviewed and a few owners were given more money, it was still not full compensation and was not fair or equitable across the board and no explanation was given as to what was being covered and what was not. Most owners are out of pocket, some by thousands of dollars, however the upfront costs of litigation dissuades some owners from seeking legal recourse, they prefer to have the cash at hand to care for their cats.

*The disease process*
Irradiation of the food did not cause excessive levels of radiation inducing morbidity. This is an inaccurate representation of the facts. What is the reference source for this inaccurate generalisation? The exact aetiology of the disease process is not known, and morbidity is not the guaranteed outcome. Further, irradiated food does not hold "radiation" after the process, as was implied. _My research_ shows me that what is thought to occur is that radiolytic by-products (unidentified) caused by disruption of the molecular structure of the food set up an oxidative chain-reaction whereby the myelin sheath of the central nervous system was broken down resulting in ataxia/paralysis. Remyelination can occur with a change of diet and assisted by supplementation with antioxidants. Of around 100 Orijen-affected cats, 30 died or were euthanased. Of the remainder, some have made a fair to good recovery while about 15 remain partially paralysed and are still slowly recovering but to what degree of recovery we still do not know. My own cat is one of those 15.

In the 376 days since my cat was diagnosed with "Orijen syndrome" I have nursed her through a descent into full paraplegia and rehabilitated her to her current state of partial paralysis of the rear limbs and incontinence, and assisted her daily with defaecation and in the early stages, feeding. I have gained first hand experience of how Champion Petfoods delays, obfuscates, is economical with the truth and unfair and inconsistent in its dealings with affected owners. I have put the Australian Government on notice via a submission to the Australian Minister for Agriculture Fisheries and Forestry, provided research references to the Government substantiating the hypothesis that gamma irradiated diets cause ataxia and paralysis in cats, worked in conjunction with the veterinary neurologist, other owners, the RSPCA, and Opposition Senators who have placed Questions on Notice in the Senate for me, and the end result was we achieved a ban on the irradiation of cat food coming into Australia. Here's a letter to me from the Minister thanking me for my contribution:

https://www.box.net/shared/5gleamdhlf

I don't hold a Masters Degree in Research. However I think over the past year in the University of Life I have achieved a Professorship in Tenacity, Determination, and Holding People to Account. I am still campaigning for a full cessation of gamma irradiation on all pet foods and full and accurate labelling of all foodstuffs thus treated and I am still pursuing Biosecurity Australia on the aspect of inadequate safety studies.

And I will never forgive Champion Petfoods for the part they played in ruining the last half of my beautiful little cat's life and the upheaval they have caused in my later years of life and to my finances as a result of their lack of due diligence, which they admitted to me verbally and in a general written statement to all owners.

So James please don't rubbish me, misquote me and don't tell me to do my research in that pompous fashion because I've lived it every single day for the last fifty three weeks.


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

Is there any evidence that pets in this country are at risk from Orijen?


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## henry (Mar 16, 2009)

Wow - what is all that about? Can someone shed any light on it as I'm slightly confused I feed my dog Orijen for breakfast and Naturediet for dinner so I'd like some reassurance that this isn't a cause for concern. I thought Orijen sourced all their fresh meats locally ..... am i wrong?


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## LucyJ (Jul 3, 2008)

I think that common sense should prevail, if Champion Pet Foods, who make Orijen were at fault they would have been sued. They haven't been.

If you are worried then email Champion Pet Foods or call them as I did when this issue was first raised. They sent me lots of information.

Orijen is sold in many countires with no problems as far as any research shows. Every couple of months the same people put the same information on lots of forums.

Australia is the only country that irradiates food so no risk here anyway.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Certainly lots of info there, ill look over when ive got more time but it does seem strange how the deaths have only occurred in Australia and nowhere else. I am still perplexed at how it won 2009/10 best food in an independent study if the food is so bad. 
Going by thecatsmothers opinion on what constitutes "meat meal" (that being decayed/diseased animals) im suspicious of the info presented really as if all that information can be found through foi I dont know how they have come to the conclusions on meal products which is simply wrong. The US agricultural dept reformed agricultural feeds as did the UK as regards meal (as this was part of the concern about the BSE outbreak) but this is far and apart from pet foods, 
I agree with the above - a malpractice law suit would have been brought against them if their food was unfit for consumption. 
Simply because they denied knowledge doesnt mean they were in anyway implcated in the irradiation of foods.
Im still pretty sure is a good food, but its intersting stuff nontheless and ill enjoy going over the info


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Ive just looked at the link supplied "Orijen Information docs released". After usual party agreements of trade import on page 5 - the agreement of import by AQIS (Australian Quarantine and Disease Service) there are two heavily blanked out areas stating the Importer and Exporter. Underneath that there is a sub-heading stating this:

*POST ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
1. Prior to release from Quarantine the material must be subject to gamma radiation at 50 kGy (5 Mrad). Irradiation at 50 kGy at an AQIS approved facility is mandatory even if the product has been irradiated prior to import to Australia*

This would say even if Orijen /Champ foods did irradiate their food to safe levels (as is usual in any red meat product) the Austrlian government deems it *mandatory* to irradiate whether or not!

So the catsmother saying that is was optional and the imprter was not *forced* is completely off the mark!

I havent read any more as this seems to end the conversation though Ill go through it more and if anything else pops up ill say.


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

For those of us who arent as rigorous as James in reading all the small print, it is rather misleading to post that information here. The people who use this board are mostly in UK with some in US I admit. If the problems encountered were only in Australia and also due to irradiation then the cats mother is simply scaremongering.

Thanks James for disseminating the information. Keep us informed if you find anything else.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

The Cats Mother said:


> *Orijen gamma irradiation - whose liability*
> May I draw attention to *Page 52*. This document is an email dated Monday 30 July 2007 from Australian Quarantine explaining why Orijen does not meet Australian Quarantine requirements. The quarantine officer explains that the only available option (note the word "option") is to have the product gamma irradiated at 50kGy upon arrival in Australia. The alternative option is to reject the application for import licence and not import the food. At no time was the importer "forced" to irradiate the food nor was it done without the importer's knowledge. The importer is required to sign a waiver form for the sterilising facility indemnifying Australian Quarantine against any effects and in fact there is a clear statement in this email to the effect that the importer takes full responsibility for any effects on the product or the packaging.


If you look at P52 of 66 on the PDF again... I cant copy the text from the pdf files to put on here though it clear states in an email for importation

quote

Monday 30 July 2007 1:39pm
to: blank
Subject: Aqis APPLICATION ip07009133 (SEC=IN CONFIDENCE: COMMERCAIL)
Categories: IN CONFIDENCE: COMMERCAIL

Dear : blank
Thank you for the information you provided last week.
In order to address quarantine concers, pet food products containing animal derived ingredients must be treated using moist heat to obtain a minimun core temperature of 100c for 30 minutes or equivalent.
Unfortunately, the information you have provided with your application indicates that a number of ingredients have not been subjected to any blank other than those applied during the blank.
In addition, the use of blank generally cannot be considered equivalent to a moist cooking process, with the main concerns relating to heat penetration. It is possible to blank a production in a blank such as an blank and still have a core temperature of below that which we require. It is for this reason that we have concerns relating to blank of pet food products in the absence of a seperate cooking process of the animal components.
*As a result, the only remaining option available to you is gamma irradiation at 50 kGrays upon arrival in Australia*. This treatment on arrival would sterilise the products and manage any quarantine risk. The cost of the treatment must be met by the importer. *AQIS takes no responsibility for the effect this level of irradiation* may have on the products or their packaging. For further information regarding Gamma irradiation (including fees) please contact your local Ste ritech gamma irradiation facility:
Sydney - 02 96095566
Melbourne ...
Brisbane...
*Please advise if you wish to have these products treated upon arrival. If you do not wish to proceed with this option I shall arrange a formal rejection letter*.

I dont know if thecatsmother has gone to all this effort and been disappointed though it appears the importer took the decision to sell the food in Australia and as a result irradiated the food in line with quarantine aggreements that they signed.

what a hastle. but interesting
(it didnt meet core temperatures as Orijen is cooked at a lower temp to keep nutrition in the ingredients, it also explains why Orijen compensated the owners and the Aussie Govt decided they were exempt)


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

The Cats Mother said:


> *Page 54* is an email from the importer advising Australian Quarantine that he has discussed the required treatment process with the manufacturer and that they are in agreement to proceed with the process and bear the cost. This is dated 6 August 2007.


On page 54 the importer states they contacted Orijen and have agreed to irradite the food at the importers cost. I can see why thecatsmother might place blame on Orijen for this though anybody importing somthing into a country has to undertake a certain amount of responsibility for the safety of that product. This cant be placed in the hands of Orijen if their food is manufactured safely, they did not make the decision to export it there, the importer did so should have taken proper precaution and investigated what the added irradiation might have done instead of trying to make a business but I expect they have learnt a lesson.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

The Cats Mother said:


> And I will never forgive Champion Petfoods for the part they played in ruining the last half of my beautiful little cat's life and the upheaval they have caused in my later years of life and to my finances as a result of their lack of due diligence, which they admitted to me verbally and in a general written statement to all owners.
> 
> So James please don't rubbish me, misquote me and don't tell me to do my research in that pompous fashion because I've lived it every single day for the last fifty three weeks.


My intention is not to rubbish you - the amount of people that come on here and make spurious claims that they know something the rest of the world doesnt and we should all be scared of the fact is worrying. For the most part they make their claim - scare everyone and then never bother posting again, so thanks for taking the time to reply. I usually read a para look over the info and reply - which is why my comments are made before this one.

It has to have be hard seeing your cat addecred in such a way so my condolences, I think youve gone a good fair way into unravelling all of this, but as you say youve approached 22 leagal teams and non of them have taken you up on it seriously - id be cautious of the 3 that said theres potential. Maybe Orijen should have investigated what the added irradiation would have done - more than likely though the importer should have done - thorough product testing is essential when your first introducting something to the market. Id think responsibility must fall on them (importer) to ensure the product is safe.

The exemption from responsibility of AQIS places this directly in the hands of the manufacturers / importers. The importer taking thier name off the company register could mean anything (they realised it was unsafe/they sold it to another company for profit/the product was recalled?). As the product is not irradiated in places like the UK and no deaths have been reported you have to consider that it is the Aussie govts fault for imposing these orders. It *was* imposed as: if the importer would have declined the quarantined irradiation they would not have allowed it entry to the country - as the emails state. 
The real crux of this is lays in legislation not manufacture in my opinion. Whether they use griffin industries or not, the food is safe - companies are allowed to use others when they cant source something locally, theres nothing wrong with this and even in the pdf's it states that griffin has past all regulatory standards.
I am sorry for your troubles - it seems a long battle that is deep in your heart though the knowledge youve gained may help you come to terms with it, I hope it does.


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

How does gamma irradiation of food cause deaths?

Does it cause ingredients to change or mutate so they are carcinagenic? 

How was the link made?


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

It doesnt if its with safe levels - all food is generally irradiated (as far as I know), it prevents salmonella in eggs for example, red meats and grains are irraditated again to destroy/prevent bacteria.

I suspect if theres too much radiation in a food stuff those eating will contract radiation poisoning


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

I didnt give that a thought James ... not that its something you really do think about. I didnt know the radiation was absorbed into food, I imagined it passed through it, or agitated the food molecules or something. 

The food standards agency says:"How does food irradiation work?

Food absorbs energy when it is exposed to ionising radiation. The amount of energy absorbed is called 'absorbed dose', which is measured in units of Gray (Gy). The energy absorbed by the food causes the formation of short-lived molecules known as free radicals, which kill micro-organisms and also interact with other food molecules.

Free radicals are formed by almost all food processing techniques, including cooking, chopping and grinding. Radiation also kills bacteria directly by affecting their DNA.

There is only one source of ionising radiation permitted for food irradiation in the UK: gamma rays from cobalt-60.
Back to top
QA
How safe is food irradiation?

Decades of research worldwide have shown that irradiation of food is a safe and effective way to kill bacteria in foods and extend its shelf life.

Food irradiation has been examined thoroughly by joint committees of the World Health Organization (WHO), the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO), by the European Community Scientific Committee for Food, the United States Food and Drug Administration and by a House of Lords committee."


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

The Food Magazine has some info about the dangers of irradiation and apparently there has been a bit of a change of mind over the safety of this' ." irradiation of food can cause toxic compounds in irradiated fat-containing foods.... the chemicals formed in irradiated food '…present cytotoxic and genotoxic effects in cultured human cells, promote colon carcinogenesis in rats and accumulate in adipose tissues of rats fed with these compounds.' 2
http://www.foodmagazine.org.uk/campaigns/press_releases/

http://www.foodirradiationinfo.org/ this one mentions orijen, Im reading this atm.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Yes, theres natural radiation in every living oraganism really - we produce and soak up radiation from our environment both naturally occurring and from polutants. Irradiation is the increasing of this to levels where bacteria are killed off preventing disease and resulting in prolonging shelf life.

What this culminates in however as regards Orijen is that its perfectly safe when not bought in Australia - whether they made a mistake by authorising an importer to further irradiate or not it was only done because of quarantine laws ruling that it needed to be done - fulfiilling the countries disease and pest regulations. If these laws werent in place im pretty sure the cats wouldnt have been affected in the least - and im sure thecatsmother realises this though is looking to gain recompence for the problems with her cat. 

The food was/is perfectly safe before hand, its just that the importer had to irradiate to meet specific (and in this case) unnecessary quarantine laws to enable them to distribute it. Australians are steadfast on anything biological entering the country, its just a shame it was associated with this food.


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## LucyJ (Jul 3, 2008)

The orijen food imported into Australia was irradiated at a higher level than agreed. If you contact Champion they have a document that explains.
I can't find the email they sent me with the atachment.

So safe for us.


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## henry (Mar 16, 2009)

Thanks for clarifying this. So, the general opinion is that Orijen is definitely one of the better foods? Can anyone clarify that I have read it correct that it doesn't contain any BHA or BHT, even in the raw ingredients. This is very important to me when choosing my dog's food. I only feed Orijen for breakfast and Naturediet for dinner, but still have a 7kg bag of Orijen unopened and just wanted to have some reassurance about it.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Yes, its totally safe. People do come on with stories/opinions and if your not familiar with things they can scare. All you have to do is look over their research/analysis if you want reassurance. I feed it to both of mine - theres nothing in it that shouldnt be in it, its well cooked, well manufactured, and the ingredients are some of the best on the market, the only thing better is a raw diet.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

The Cats Mother said:


> Yes, if you are going to feed kibble exclusively as opposed to a wet diet (which in my opinion is the best) or even as a supplement to wet (be it canned or raw and I think raw is best of all) then Orijen is one of the better ones because it doesn't contain grain. However be aware that whilst the packet/advertising blurb would have us believe it is made from all fresh food is does contain rendered product ("meal" in the ingredients listing). Rendered product can be dead, diseased and dying cattle or meat from slaughterhouses which is unfit for human consumption, bakery waste (there's that grain again) and greasetrap waste. At one stage (may still be doing I don't know) Champion Petfoods, the manufacturers, were using a U.S. based rendering plant called Griffin Industries Welcome to Griffin Industries
> Greasetrap waste seems to be one of their specialities
> 
> Of course it is no longer for sale in Australia since it was implicated in the deaths of some 30 cats and the paralysis of 70+ others this time last year due to its being gamma irradiated to pass Australia's strict quarantine requirements (due to the low temp, slow cooking process). Champion Petfoods maintained that they did not know about the gamma irradiation prior to the products reaching retail shelves, however documents obtained under the Australian Freedom of Information Act showed that their Australian distributor sought their go-ahead before agreeing to the optional process (the other option being further heat treatment or don't import it at all). Champion maintained Aust Quarantine mandated the process and there was no choice - this is absolutely not the case. I have investigated this thoroughly with Australian Quarantine and am still in communication with them about safety studies. It was the Freedom of Information documents which provided the information about Griffin Industries as well.
> ...


Orijen is made in Alberta, Canada north of my Town. They are a completely Canadian company. When they have a problem they are right on it to find out the issue. I have always recieved prompt replies when I have emailed them asking questions. So am surprised to hear you didn't get a prompt reply. They realize that the pets don't buy the food the owners do. Orijen doesn't require as much of the product to be fed. The Australian problem was apparently the irradiation used by the govt if you go to Champion pet foods they actually have an area were they discuss any problems that have been reported....Jill


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Should add I do tend to try to keep my animals on a locally sourced food at all times. So my animals get either Champion dog food (Orijen, Acana) or 
Petcurean (Go, Now ) both sourced in western Canada. Not sure what I would do if I lived elsewhere I would have to research the locally sourced food in the area....Jill


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## henry (Mar 16, 2009)

Thanks for that, James and Jill. I feel reassured now that I'm doing the best for my dog. Just goes to show you that reading stuff on the internet can confuse you at times!


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## Maistaff (Dec 27, 2009)

Woo Hoo my Orijen arrived yesterday so the dogs are now starting the new year with a new food.

Can't wait to get them started


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Well ive just be rudely awakened by some neighbours whove lost their front door keys and in their clear thinking are trying to smash their way their way in ... not a good start.:nonod:


It does sound like a good start for you though so yes will join you in a yeeeha ! lol


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## poppop (Jan 7, 2010)

Just an another opinion, I am not a fan of Orijen. I had my two older girls on it for a while and the really itchy one was no less itchy, and the other threw up alot after meals (which was not normal for her). I think it was too rich in protein - it is VERY high - 40%. 
I then purchaed a bag of the Large Breed Puppy one for my new puppy arrival and then we heard about the cats here in Australia who had died after eating Orijen. It was due to the irradiation the food had to undergo for admittance into Australia. It was not the food per se - it was the irradiation at this end. This may not happen for entry to the UK. At this stage although there was no eveidence - and has been none since - of problems with dogs, we threw away the puppy food. 
I am so glad I did as we later went to the vet about the pup's feet turning slightly outward and he said the food we were on had too high a protein level for a large beed pup - and that was 28%!! All the large breed pup formulas are quite high, though 40% for Orijen is huge. Anyway, we changed food and she's been on a 24% protein food since then and feet all fine - and she does well at the shows too!
So in my experience it has not benefitted any of my 3 dogs.


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

poppop said:


> Just an another opinion, I am not a fan of Orijen. I had my two older girls on it for a while and the really itchy one was no less itchy, and the other threw up alot after meals (which was not normal for her). I think it was too rich in protein - it is VERY high - 40%.
> I then purchaed a bag of the Large Breed Puppy one for my new puppy arrival and then we heard about the cats here in Australia who had died after eating Orijen. It was due to the irradiation the food had to undergo for admittance into Australia. It was not the food per se - it was the irradiation at this end. This may not happen for entry to the UK. At this stage although there was no eveidence - and has been none since - of problems with dogs, we threw away the puppy food.
> I am so glad I did as we later went to the vet about the pup's feet turning slightly outward and he said the food we were on had too high a protein level for a large beed pup - and that was 28%!! All the large breed pup formulas are quite high, though 40% for Orijen is huge. Anyway, we changed food and she's been on a 24% protein food since then and feet all fine - and she does well at the shows too!
> So in my experience it has not benefitted any of my 3 dogs.


Out of curiosity, did the vet say why the high protein diet was causing her feet to turn in? Not having a go or anything, genuinely curious as to the relation between the two.

Has anyone who feeds their dog raw had the same I wonder? As obviously raw will be high in protein.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

poppop said:


> I am so glad I did as we later went to the vet about the pup's feet turning slightly outward and he said the food we were on had too high a protein level for a large beed pup - and that was 28%!!


how long were you feeding it? cheers


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## hyper Springer (Jan 8, 2010)

Hi long time lurker finally registering....

Im just switching a 22 week old Springer over to Orijen from JWB(3 days into switch on a 50/50 mix to run down the JWB) and he seems ok on it...

No bad wind and lovely firm pipes being deposited...

Im a little confused on the feeding amounts as on bag it says up to 3 and a 1/4 cups (cup being 120gms)

Wilson is 13KG so im giving him 360 a day,but when i read other posts it says with Orijen you feed less food,but on JWB he was on 325 a day(plus a JWBtopper occasionly)

any ideas?


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## samsgr (Dec 4, 2009)

Hi
I have been feeding a fussy Border T on this for a week or so - he loves to eat it but does give runny poo - will that stop? Also attempting to transfer Lab onto it from Eukanuba but not sure as he also seems to have looser poos?


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

hyper Springer said:


> Hi long time lurker finally registering....
> 
> Im just switching a 22 week old Springer over to Orijen from JWB(3 days into switch on a 50/50 mix to run down the JWB) and he seems ok on it...
> 
> ...


320g for a springer is too much it will make thme soft, I changed mine over at 5 months and i was feeding just over 200g, hes currently 11 months and hes getting 250g.
Id lower it to around the 220g mark... its generally thought that inbewteen 3 and 6 months you increase it as this is when they are growing most but with this food its not necessary. Drop back and they'll be fine

Samsgr: if youve just changed onto it it may cause some runnyness though it should fade out shortly. If your overfeeding though it will go straight through them as they cant digest all the proteins  maybe lower the amount your giving.


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## hyper Springer (Jan 8, 2010)

james1 said:


> 320g for a springer is too much it will make thme soft, I changed mine over at 5 months and i was feeding just over 200g, hes currently 11 months and hes getting 250g.
> Id lower it to around the 220g mark... its generally thought that inbewteen 3 and 6 months you increase it as this is when they are growing most but with this food its not necessary. Drop back and they'll be fine
> 
> James thanks for this....
> ...


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

hyper Springer said:


> Hi long time lurker finally registering....
> 
> Im just switching a 22 week old Springer over to Orijen from JWB(3 days into switch on a 50/50 mix to run down the JWB) and he seems ok on it...
> 
> ...


There is a feeding guide on the net which is more detailed. I will post it for you. HERE


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

My boys 11 months and 17.3kg at the minute only just weighed him  .. for 5months old id say 13kg is about right at 6 months my lad was 15kg and stayed at that up until about 9 months when he started to increase again. We found worms in his last so it might have been this that caused the plateau but a plateau is entirely natural. There are lots of different sizes .. mines 20" at the withers so quite a tall boy, my older is 18" but I know fully grown adults that are 17kg and this is their top weight. Ive got some pics on my profile if you want to take a peek 

edit: make sure hes wormed well as this will cause weight issues - but again I feed towards the lower end of the feeding guidelines, its one of the more calorific foods on the market 4000 calories as opposed to some being in the hundreds


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

I changed Maggie onto the puppy one a couple of months ago and I cannot recommend it enough!

Before hand she had had severe allergies for about 3 months, where it had got to the point that she was biting her tummy and making it bleed 

I got her onto the Orijen and her itching has completely cleared up, she is MUCH calmer in herself and her poops are less and firmer!

I do feed her the lower end of the feeding guidline too.

I didn't go by the 'cups' measurements on the pack though, I used the grammes feeding guidelines on their website...

Maggie weighs about 17kg and is 9 months old and we feed her about 250g a day now. I think every dog is different though depending on age, activity levels etc etc...so really if your dog looks healthy (not too skinny, not fat, can easily feel ribs etc) then you are prob feeding the correct amount.


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## Maistaff (Dec 27, 2009)

I hav had my three on it now since Dec 31st and i have had no problems at all and can honestly say that they appear to be looking ood on it so far anyway.

Charlie has stabled in weight (she had a cruciate operation so exercise is minimal) and looks less bloated. 

Indi and Dylan are also doing well with them being less bloated to look at.

Energy levels have not changed much and poo's are still in the transition period but getting better by the day.

They do drink a lot more i have noticed but i feel this is nothing to worry about 

I have just ordered a second bag


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

nice to hear they are enjoying it - you will get some big wind out of them probably - mine lasted about a month though others have said around a week  mumsandpets ive found do the best prices for 2 bags, no delivery charge


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

I changed my puppy over to Orijen a few weeks back. Thanks to x mas deliveries I was left without enough of his old food to swap him over as slow as I'd have liked. But he's been great, no upset tum, no wind, good poo's, not problem at all.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

glad things are going well, remember to feed to the bottom of the guidelines as this is where you get the eqivalent to regular 15kg bags


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

james1 said:


> glad things are going well, remember to feed to the bottom of the guidelines as this is where you get the eqivalent to regular 15kg bags


Thanks, I actually give him a little less. Guide says he needs 300g, but I give him 240g, taking of the 20g from each meal because I mix in some prize choice mince.

I'm going to start chaging my older dog over next week, hoping to have the same results with him. Little worried as he has a bit of a sensitive tum. But I'm ordering early to be sure I've got enough to swap him over slowly, plus he's on protexin probiotics, so hopefully he should be okay.


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## hyper Springer (Jan 8, 2010)

Just a quick update on the changeover 5 days in.....

The boys now on approx 80% Origen \20% JWB and giving him 300gms over 2 meals....

Less wind than on the JWB,which surprised me after reading other threads 

Stools nice n firm and smaller than before and a tad darker and also less smelly

If anything he seems less hyper and seems to sleep more in the day

It may not be related but his slightly weeping eyes have stopped as well!!!

Wheres the cheapeast place to get 2 x 7kg bags deliverd from off the internerd ???


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

I dont use 7 kg bags. Youll may have to pay deliver costs - its usually 15kg = free delivery or if you spend more than 40 pounds. 
You could always buy the bigger bags and tape them up (air tight) taking out that what you need, this is what I do to keep it staying fresh, it works out slightly cheaper too.
mums and pets are doing the best prices for big bags right now though mutley and mogg and gjwtitmus are also good 
Just have a good scour around but these are the regular ones - ive not found any cheaper ones anyway


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## samsgr (Dec 4, 2009)

For JAMES - wondered if you can advise as you have been an orijen convert - ive got a 35kg lab - has to walks a day 40 mins each; swapped him gradually to Orijen (from Eukanuba - he will eat anthing and everything if he could), according to guide he should get 375gm a day - he is quite a big dog and dont want him overweight etc, what do you think he should have ? He eats twice a day. 
Only swapping as our Border is on this as wanted to cut out cereal and grain as he is sensitive eater, also poss has IBD.

thanks for an advice


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Top weight of an adult Lab id guess is around the 35kg mark, 40kg being the very big athletic type you see. Ive just looked at the guidelines - for an active lifestyle (heavy work) its 375g+, as you only take 2 40 minute walks there is no need for this at all, a minimal diet will give him more than enough. For a less active lifestyle the recommendation is around the 275g - id say this would be about right. My 20kg senior spaniel is on 200g, my pup 17kg is just on 250g as im trying to get some weight in him but both will go all day - i give around 2hrs+ exercise daily inc training as its a bit cold right now. Id think 275 - 300g would definitely be more than enough over two meals. Its difficult as the 35kg adult stems two feeding brackets but id go for the lower one, he may lean himself up which would be good but dont let the weight drop too far 30kilos id think would be average? 
cheers ... im just a regular feeder maybe ask some lab owners their weights and how much they feed on their kibble then take about 80-100g off as thats about the norm I think with orijen (my senior is supposed to be getting 300g on jwb).. you dont need much of it compared to others


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

Whilst on the subject of how much Orijen to feed, I'm after a little advice. Just about to swap my eldest dog over to Orijen. He's an 8 month old staffy x, 19kg, not a working dog, just the usual daily walks. 

The feeding guide says:


Dog's weight Active Dog Less Active Dog
10 - 20 kg 150 - 275 115 - 200
20 - 35 kg 275 - 375 200 - 275

My question being, since he's 19kg, do I feed him the upper recommendation on the 10-20kg, IE 200g per day, or do I round it up to 20kg and feed him the minimum for that, IE 275g per day?

He's in great shape so not looking to put weight on him, or drop any, just maintain what he's at now.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

My springer was near 25kilos after a long spate of illness, I put him on 180g and he reduced to 20kilos in about 5 months, hes exercising well now and stable at 20kg getting 200g (on orijen senior) id think that 180-200g would be about the right figure too, probably the lower end?  (the only difference between the senior and adult food is the fat content but thats only a %age if I remember right)


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

Thanks. I'll probably give him around 150g then, since I mix in the prize choice, don't want to over feed him. I'll just keep an eye on his weight, and adjust if needed.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

yes id say that would be about right tbh  didnt want to say too low as everyone with orijen is always saying feed the lowest amount, just go by what suits really  but if your feeding extra then that would be about right id say


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## The Dogs Father (Jan 21, 2010)

I am changing over from Burns to Orijen for my German Shepherd dog
(this is my third GSD), after having read and researched about Orijen.
What happened down under is irrelevant for the rest of the world.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

nice to hear, its one of (if not) the best foods on the market, its just that people do come on - say a load of stuff that scares pretty much anyone that reads it and post very little after that. It was isolated to OZ and happened over 10 years ago with an immediate recall and ceasing of distribution. Nothing to do with Orijen, simply Australias import process that was at fault.


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## daismith906 (Nov 30, 2009)

Swapping my 15week old black lab pup onto orijen from JWB in the next few days, bought a trial bag which he really liked so happy days.

Still usure how much to feed him:huh:

Currently feeding him 1.5 cups (approx 150g) of JWB puppy food 3 times a day, so thinking around the 300g of orijen daily then assess from there!!!


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## hyper Springer (Jan 8, 2010)

daismith906 said:


> Swapping my 15week old black lab pup onto orijen from JWB in the next few days, bought a trial bag which he really liked so happy days.
> 
> Still usure how much to feed him:huh:
> 
> Currently feeding him 1.5 cups (approx 150g) of JWB puppy food 3 times a day, so thinking around the 300g of orijen daily then assess from there!!!


Swapped my nearly 6 month old Springer over to orijen 3 weeks ago with no problems...

hes getting 320 gms a day and seems ok with this amount but i will be watching his weight carefully 

His new teeth are gleaming and coat nice n shiney(although it was shiny on JWB)

less wind than jwb and his poop is a lot less( 3 times a day) less smelly and nice n dark  and also very solid


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

320g is quite a lot just to say, id go for around the 250g mark at this age, I did raise to 300g to put weight on at this age but found they simply poo it out more


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## daismith906 (Nov 30, 2009)

james1 said:


> 320g is quite a lot just to say, id go for around the 250g mark at this age, I did raise to 300g to put weight on at this age but found they simply poo it out more


How much do you suggest for a 4month old black lab?


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

I dont really know lab weights im afraid, id take around 80g off your usual kibble feed and that would be about right. Its a whole different food to anything on the market, very high in protein and calories so you dont need as much as what you do with other kibbles, sorry 

there are others on here that feed it - with any luck they will have a chat


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## nightingale (Oct 31, 2008)

james1 said:


> My boys 11 months and 17.3kg at the minute only just weighed him  .. for 5months old id say 13kg is about right at 6 months my lad was 15kg and stayed at that up until about 9 months when he started to increase again. We found worms in his last so it might have been this that caused the plateau but a plateau is entirely natural. There are lots of different sizes .. mines 20" at the withers so quite a tall boy, my older is 18" but I know fully grown adults that are 17kg and this is their top weight. Ive got some pics on my profile if you want to take a peek
> 
> edit: make sure hes wormed well as this will cause weight issues - but again I feed towards the lower end of the feeding guidelines, its one of the more calorific foods on the market 4000 calories as opposed to some being in the hundreds


A very big thank to you James. With your advice I have been feeding my Jasper ( Welsh Springer) Orijen . He will be 10 months this Jan 27th and he is doing very well on it . I did increase his feed as someone told me he was looking skinny . To me he doesn't . He is very active too.I have found his poos to be a bit soft and now I know why after reading these posts here. I feed him 150 g in the morning and I am still trying to finish the Wainwrights which I give at night . Is 150 g a bit much ? Wainwrights I give again 150 g. 
when does a dog switch to adult food ...what is recommended age for this switch? 
Also , waht is his recommended feed when he is on Origjen both in the morning and night? Jasper is a Welsh springer.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

We have only just changed to the Adult Orijen this week also  Jasper is probably soft as your feeding a little too much - there must be a big difference between 300g and 250g as this is what I was seeing - though hes firmed up well now with reduced amounts

His meals are split into 125g morning and evening


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## dvnbiker (Dec 2, 2009)

here is the orijen feeding guide which gives a grammes guide which I use.

http://www.orijenpetfoods.co.uk/acatalog/orijen_feeding_guide.pdf

My lot needed to lose a bit after their month off from training etc so my eldest BC who is about 20kg is on 150g per day and my younger two - both about 16-17kg are on 130g per day. This will probably be increased to between 150g-200g once they are back to full training.


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## nightingale (Oct 31, 2008)

james1 said:


> We have only just changed to the Adult Orijen this week also  Jasper is probably soft as your feeding a little too much - there must be a big difference between 300g and 250g as this is what I was seeing - though hes firmed up well now with reduced amounts
> 
> His meals are split into 125g morning and evening


I have nearly completed the wainwrights bag and i am sper pleased about it . I will be giving Jasper only Orijen both in the morning and night . 125 g per meal sounds a bit less , James. I reduced the amount to 140 g yesterday ...his poos have firmed up . The feeding guide someone has posted is very good but again I guess we have to adjust this according to the breed and weight .... 
I have to buy a bag agin now ...and should I go for the 13.5 or the 7 kg as I may have to start him off on adult food. Does anyone know when does a welsh springer become an adult ? sounds a very funny question to me !


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

The only reason I changed to the adult is because someone said they feed adult at 6 months, so 11 months is fine id think. Theres very little difference in it though, only difference being fat content is reduced I think. You will have to weigh the food out again - its slightly heavier that the puppy kibble, so if you use a measuring cup remember to mark off where you should be feeding too. 280g is still a lot you know, 200 - 250g is more than enough to be honest, my adult is getting 200g as hes got loads of energy. 
I have also found that after changing to the adult he is crunching the food - something which he was not doing with the puppy one


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## nightingale (Oct 31, 2008)

james1 said:


> The only reason I changed to the adult is because someone said they feed adult at 6 months, so 11 months is fine id think. Theres very little difference in it though, only difference being fat content is reduced I think. You will have to weigh the food out again - its slightly heavier that the puppy kibble, so if you use a measuring cup remember to mark off where you should be feeding too. 280g is still a lot you know, 200 - 250g is more than enough to be honest, my adult is getting 200g as hes got loads of energy.
> I have also found that after changing to the adult he is crunching the food - something which he was not doing with the puppy one


OH, thanks James , I normally weigh using kitchen scales and that is rather useful . I did not find teh measuring cup too accurate as I was using wainwrights too. It was rather confusing. 
I will get a 7 kg bag and start him off on adult in the 11/12 month . Jasper is super active !!! I am also gettting him neutered next month . He was fixed on teh 18th december but my boy made his own decision by eating 4 boxes of chocolate 2 days before the operation day and was coughing up wrappers for 5-6 days !
I guess he also wanted to enjoy the snow days! he had to go in for an xray and a barium to check if any wrappers were lodged in there.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Their temperements are much like ESS from what I hear, ready to get into any trouble they can find, they are a good looking 'traditional' dog but they still need to be told what to do, hope he keeps ya fit 
The measuring cups are off yes - just a piece of tape as a marker as to where to fill to sorts it out though


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## LucyJ (Jul 3, 2008)

You can get Orijen measuring cups. Got some from the oet shop a few months ago.


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## goldenlover (Jan 24, 2010)

i recently had a bad experince feeding orijen red meat to my goldens.

i had changed to this food thinking it to be of high caliber.

after about one and half months my youhnger dog looked not herself at all and lacked energy. then she began to have seizures about 2 hours after eating and on into the day. i took her to the vet and had blood scan, xrays heart check up... nothing was wrong. 
i had mentioned to the vet i thought she may be reacting to her new food. i took her off orijen and she has had no seizures for 2 months now.

she is back to her happy self and this bout of seizures sure was scarey, i almost lost her, if i had not taken the action i did i thing she would not be here. she had serious issues.

cannot say for sure it was orijen... but a huge coincidence if it was not the food.


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## LucyJ (Jul 3, 2008)

Did you contact Orijen to find out why? nothing in the ingredients to suggest such a change, I tried a small bag of red but no difference so not worth the extra cost. So still feed Oriejn adult


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Yep definitely not worth the extra 10 pounds in cost in my view - no point when the Adult is there and the Fish one is there also. Ive not tried the Red Meat one - its wild bore i think? Must have been a shock seeing you dog have a seizure without doubt. Id contact them too. Are you in the UK?


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## goldenlover (Jan 24, 2010)

LucyJ said:


> Did you contact Orijen to find out why? nothing in the ingredients to suggest such a change, I tried a small bag of red but no difference so not worth the extra cost. So still feed Oriejn adult


i have contacted orijen but not had a reply yet...there are some botanicals in there that could be a problem for some dogs and seizures.


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## nightingale (Oct 31, 2008)

LucyJ said:


> You can get Orijen measuring cups. Got some from the oet shop a few months ago.


Really , from which pet shop did you get the origen measuring cup? I haven't seen it in pet at home .:smile5:
Yes, James , my Jasper does keep me fit !!


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## LucyJ (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi, got my measuring cups at Pingles Pets.


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## goldenlover (Jan 24, 2010)

my dog had siezures after a while when i changed her to orijen.... it was very serious and i almost lost her. i took her off the food... seizures stopped immediatley.

i cannot accuse the company of definitely being the cause..BUT i am pretty sure in my heart that orijen caused my dogs problems. i htink some dogs have a strange reaction to their food.
i have told the company about this problem and they do not seem to be overly concerned .

evidence is
new dog food ..... orijen... one month later... seizures began...2 hours after eating and then almost constantly..... we checked everything at the vets..... all clear.... changed food ..... off orijen... NO SEIZUES now for 3 months. 

make up your own mind, if ONE dog has a problem ...this is serious enough to do something about .....ORIJEN. my sons dog was not in good health on this food either. no seizures but very not himself, they took him off very quickly.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Some dogs have just as bad reactions/intollerances to other ingreditents such a wheat, corn, sometimes even all ingredients. Im not sure if it were yourself or somebody else but they had a similar reaction and put it down to Rosemary in the food. A lot of kibbles use this as a digestive aid/stool scenter but if your dogs intollerant then you just have to find one that does suit. Goldies do seem to have have fussy stomachs from the posts ive read, it is a very good food... simply that some dogs cant cope with it.


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## goldenlover (Jan 24, 2010)

I think it was one of the botanicals that bothered my dog. like us , they too have allergic reactions. Not rosemary because she had that in healthwise food before with no problem... i think maybe the arrow root. or something anyways for sure.
i am just glad my dog got over this reaction and is alive and happy and well again.


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

Ive decided to start feeding sailor on orijen.
I was just checking out diferent foods etc and decided on orijen. Just spent ages in there website and searching for reviews, that werent attatched to their website.. as their bound to be biased lol and came here to see whats been wrote in here.....

shame about those cats, but on a whole I think orijen sounds good..
my only :huh: ... was on orijen site, it says 70 % meat and 30% fruit n veg... and also 75% meat and 25% fruit n veg, so im not sure which to go on.. but least none of it is grain, cant see why dogs should have grain if they dont need it.

So as soon as Sailors current bag of Wagg starts looking bare, Im going to order the orijen and buy a smaller bag of Wagg, so I can start to transfere him onto orijen.

Not alot I can ask about orijen on here now, as it seems to all have been answered on here, right down to where to buy from lol

thanx to all posting all the pros n cons


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

how old is sailor? he'll be loving you long time if you start feeding him it lol


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## maxandskye (Jan 31, 2009)

nightingale said:


> Really , from which pet shop did you get the origen measuring cup? I haven't seen it in pet at home .:smile5:
> Yes, James , my Jasper does keep me fit !!
> View attachment 38296


You cannot buy Orijen from pets @ home.


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## maxandskye (Jan 31, 2009)

goldenlover said:


> my dog had siezures after a while when i changed her to orijen.... it was very serious and i almost lost her. i took her off the food... seizures stopped immediatley.
> 
> i cannot accuse the company of definitely being the cause..BUT i am pretty sure in my heart that orijen caused my dogs problems. i htink some dogs have a strange reaction to their food.
> i have told the company about this problem and they do not seem to be overly concerned .
> ...


OMG thats terrible, I'm not suprised that you think this way.

My last girl suffered with fits & I must say that its the scareiest thing I have ever witnessed.

I hope your boy is ok now.


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## chezkat (Mar 2, 2010)

Hi, this is my first post thanks to this topic and I must say James your opinions are a great help, thanks! 
I have a handsome 5 month old Mastiff cross, called Troy, whos 24kg already! As its been 3 years since my last dog, I though Hills was still a good food to feed, untill way too much research later, I find its not so good! So I decided to get Troy Orijen about 3 weeks ago. I had ran out of Hills before Orijen arrived so I didnt wean it in slowly. I am feeding 500g split between 2 meals a day of the large breed food. He has put on a bit of weight since the change.
I am finding this is more food than required of the Hills, but read that Orijen was in smaller bags as you didnt need so much. How confusing!
I really like the food and Troys eats it happily but his stools are a bit sloppy, but getting firmer than they were last week. I am in need of a heads up to say I'm doing good for my boy or not if the case may be!

Thanks for all the help through the other posts!:smile5:


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

I changed my springer onto it at 5 1/2mths and hes done really well on it, id say your doing right by him. One thing though, should he not be on the adult now? If you look at the guidlines http://www.orijenpetfoods.co.uk/acatalog/orijen_feeding_guide.pdf Id say he should.

If your worried about any difference in the foods, its essentially the same as the puppy food only slightly less protein and slightly less fat. The 500g per day is quite a lot for them to digest so young, i'd definitely look at reducing this, aim for just below mid point on the feed guide  Again refer to the guidelines and judge your lifestyle active or less active. The slippy poos could be because hes been introduced to it so quickly but id suggest it would be the amount your giving - its a hugely rich food, they do better on less as their body doesnt have to cope with digesting it all, its therefore better for them nutritionally.

If your worried about him being hungry, carrots and slices of apple will fill them up and clean their teeth, plain rawhide sticks, pigs ears and the odd bonio as a treat will work well. Id surely look at the adult food though - the feed amounts are massifely different to the pup ones and it would stop a lot of the problems straight off aswell as have the bags last as long as they should  Gjwtitmuss are giving the best prices at the moment after a national price increase - If your bank ballance cant cope - in around 3 months Acana is being launched here, its the same company and same ingredients but cheaper (the formula is 60% meat 40% veg as opposed to 70% x 30% which is why it will be more afforable) 

edit: for bulk orders contact Berriewoods - they are wholesalers and do a discount for this.


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## henry (Mar 16, 2009)

Hi James - just wondering, are you going to keep your youngster on the Orijen now? I know you mentioned the Vitalin before. Think I'll be staying with Orijen for a while -my local feed merchant were doing it at the old prices so I bought another 3 x 7kg bags plus a bag of the 6 Fish to try as well!


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## chezkat (Mar 2, 2010)

Thanks James, your a star!
I will definately look at the adult food for the next bag. I thought he would be on puppy food untill he was about a year old, but as the protien is lower I think its a good move. I was worried the protien level was way too high for a large breed dog. Should the adult food be weaned in also? 
I have noticed Troy doesnt eat all his breakfast, so I will feed him less. I have kept him off any human food so far but he gets bones and chews, I might try him on a carrot. It would be nice and juicy instead of all the dry stuff!
Cheers for your help!


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## Callia (Jan 14, 2009)

My Whippet is having Orijen and she looks fabulous on it  A bag seems to last ages and I do leave it down all the time for her to help herself.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

chezkat said:


> Thanks James, your a star!
> I will definately look at the adult food for the next bag. I thought he would be on puppy food untill he was about a year old, but as the protien is lower I think its a good move. I was worried the protien level was way too high for a large breed dog. Should the adult food be weaned in also?
> I have noticed Troy doesnt eat all his breakfast, so I will feed him less. I have kept him off any human food so far but he gets bones and chews, I might try him on a carrot. It would be nice and juicy instead of all the dry stuff!
> Cheers for your help!


I kept mine on the puppy until 11 months, dont ask me why but I did lol I only mention the Adult as looking at their guidelines it definitely says he should be on adult for his weight, sorry if I didnt make this clear in my first reply, ive only just read it  I did a slow changeover onto the adult one as I would with any kibble change, it didnt really affect him but I just do it as a standard on introducing a new food. Human food wont do any harm, it will get him used to other foods but be aware of things that are poisonout (onions, mushrooms, apple cores)

To Henry: no ive still not changed him over as im having a toss up between the Vitalin Adult and the fish4dogs... i will make a decision - soon (with any luck) The reasons are purely financial for me, circumstances have changed so hes got to change off it sooner than later. I was really going to use it until he was around 2yrs and then go to a more standard kibble, just so that he gets his building blocks for later life


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## henry (Mar 16, 2009)

I know what you mean about the cost, James, especially with your 2 springers. How does the cost of Fish4Dogs and Vitalin compare with the Orijen (I'll go and have a "google".


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

The fish4dogs looks good but for a single bag delivered its 46 pound right now (i think they may lower this soon) for two bags delivery is included so its 81 pounds which is a bit better For Orijen its 112 pounds at some places!. Vitalin is 32 pounds delivered . The ingredient stakes..?? best guess really - fish4dogs uses cod and herring meal - id think it would be very good for coats and joints and theres no reason why any dog shouldnt be able to cope with it. The only prob that I worry about with fish is that becasue its so easy to digest - it may make their stomachs lazy?? suppose easily sorted with treats etc. Vitalin - have to say looks cracking for 32 pounds, I have no idea why I havent ordered it - reasonable chicken amount (23% I think) and potato only, in the Adult maintenance. It gets my vote, lots of brands put 40+% rice in and still expect a minimum price of 40 quid, I should pull my finger out and change them over lol


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## henry (Mar 16, 2009)

The Vitalin does look good for the money..........then again, with the Orijen you get 70% meat as opposed to 26% with the Vitalin. I suppose when you think of it like that, you can see why it's more expensive. Then again, if it was topped up with Naturediet, etc, that would raise the meat content, but then you'd have to buy the ND as well.......... mmm.


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## hyper Springer (Jan 8, 2010)

but with Vitalin although the intial cost is less would you not feed less with the orijen?


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

henry said:


> The Vitalin does look good for the money..........then again, with the Orijen you get 70% meat as opposed to 26% with the Vitalin. I suppose when you think of it like that, you can see why it's more expensive. Then again, if it was topped up with Naturediet, etc, that would raise the meat content, but then you'd have to buy the ND as well.......... mmm.


lol yep - so it would work to around a similar price - as it stands its not bad - and considering even now im still giving left over meats from meals id say it would top it up.. decisions decisions uuurgh haha 

I expect you would feed less with Orijen yes, though 30 pounds is significantly less then Orijens current prices - so id think youve save on the whole ..


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

james1 you are a font of info on the feed front. 

Unfortunately my budget wouldnt run to Origen but you certainly put Vitalin in the picture. The sample was good and I would have chosen it if Heidi hadn't preferred Skinners because the kibbles were softer.

The Skinners has definately turned out to be the best for us. It has the same tummy and joint supplements as Vitalin, rice instead of potato and a lot less meat BUT thinking about it, I would have supplemented a bit of wet food and some raw anyway. 

I would say to anyone considering changing feeds, if you intend feeding 100% kibble, then go for the higher meat content BUT if you intend feeding meat alongside then go for the cheaper brand that meets your needs. I just wish Heidi had liked the Field and Trial Duck and Rice instead of Salmon and Rice and saved me another £5 but hey ho, cant win em all


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## victoriaj (Oct 21, 2009)

james1 said:


> The fish4dogs looks good but for a single bag delivered its 46 pound right now (i think they may lower this soon) for two bags delivery is included so its 81 pounds which is a bit better For Orijen its 112 pounds at some places!. Vitalin is 32 pounds delivered . The ingredient stakes..?? best guess really - fish4dogs uses cod and herring meal - id think it would be very good for coats and joints and theres no reason why any dog shouldnt be able to cope with it. The only prob that I worry about with fish is that becasue its so easy to digest - it may make their stomachs lazy?? suppose easily sorted with treats etc. Vitalin - have to say looks cracking for 32 pounds, I have no idea why I havent ordered it - reasonable chicken amount (23% I think) and potato only, in the Adult maintenance. It gets my vote, lots of brands put 40+% rice in and still expect a minimum price of 40 quid, I should pull my finger out and change them over lol


hi james

have a look at feedem.co.uk and luxury pet store.co.uk they sell vitalin between £22 and £24 for 15kg
have ordered duffy a small bag and got some skinners samples arriving too
lady recommended field and track crunchy for duffy
orijen is just too expensive for me now!!


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## yogibear (Mar 4, 2010)

Hi all, we've used Orijen Large Breed Puppy for our Briard- it was recommended by the breeder, he'd been on Orijen from birth.

I'm no expert - so took to the web for nutritional advice, lots of websites said that the recommended level of Protein was around 28 for a growing dog, but it could be reduced in larger breed puppies because giving too much can make the puppy grow too quickly, which could lead to joint problems in later life, it would be better given a lower level of protein - maybe 22-30% tops. The Orijen is over 40% protein. I'm sure that Orijen is a very good food with pure, high quality ingredients but is it a bit rich for puppies maybe? There is a White Paper from Orijen stating that higher levels of protein have no detriment to a dog, at any age, what do people think?

We gradually introduced Royal Canin, that made his poos much lighter in colour and a little more sloppy, even though his farts were a little more bearable, so we went back to just Orijen, after a few weeks we tried Wainrights - that gave him very runny poos, seemed lethargic and his coat seemed dull within a few days, again going back to Orijen. Since then we've asked a local guy who sells all brands of foods his advice, he said he thought the protein was a bit high, so we tried JWB, but even introducing it very gradually - about 20% for a 10 day period gave us very runny poo's, not nice, also there was a little redness to the poo which might have been a few spots of blood in it. Worrying again, so at the moment we're having to go back to Orijen only. I don't want to keep trying things because it won't do him any good, but there must be something out there that will suit him without upsetting his tummy.

Has anyone had similar problem either on this food or any food? We only want what's best for him, the problem is that everyone has got a different view on what's best, I've heard that Burns contains high quality ingredients and I'm tempted to try the Lamb/rice that it seems to be good - any info would be much appreciated, especially if you have a Briard!

Thanks


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## kazschow (Oct 23, 2008)

If your dog was fed raw it would be on a much higher protien level, but many feed this way very successfully from puppyhood (personally I fed a mix of raw and kibble mixed). If your dog looks good, poos well on the orijen I would stick with it.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

victoriaj said:


> hi james
> 
> have a look at feedem.co.uk and luxury pet store.co.uk they sell vitalin between £22 and £24 for 15kg
> have ordered duffy a small bag and got some skinners samples arriving too
> ...


it is isnt it, i dont mind paying for good foods but its a bit of a hike from 90 pounds to 110. Too much for me anyway. Ive not seen the offer on the above, are your sure its their Lifestyle range and not their original formula? Their original formula isnt that good i dont think, the lifestyles is the new introduction..


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Yogibear, runny poos happen quite a bit with Orijen, its a very rich food that even 50g over feeding will cause it, on 250g my pup was fine stool wise - on 300g he was soft. Its part the food content and part you getting the amounts right. It has everything in they need (really) so you dont need the amount you would of a regular kibble


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## chestersmum (Sep 18, 2009)

I switched Chester over to orijen 3 weeks ago. Had a day or so of smelly farts what I have noticed is that his eyes are a bit more gooey in the morning and his breath is a bit smelly ( it's not normally). His teeth and mouth are fine. Do u think it could be something to do with food?


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## yogibear (Mar 4, 2010)

james1 said:


> Yogibear, runny poos happen quite a bit with Orijen, its a very rich food that even 50g over feeding will cause it, on 250g my pup was fine stool wise - on 300g he was soft. Its part the food content and part you getting the amounts right. It has everything in they need (really) so you dont need the amount you would of a regular kibble


I've called the Orijen (Bern Petfoods) for how much to feed but they've not called me back yet. The feeding guidelines are not that easy to get a grasp on, they talk of 'cups' and 'adult weight' - I'd rather go on the current weight, he's only just 5 months but he's 24Kg. I think i'll try reducing the amount that I give him, maybe suppliment it with rice/fish/egg every few days. Thinking about it, many say that extra protein will be 'wasted' and 'excreted' - maybe that results in sloppy poos? I also might move him onto the adult range as the contents are similar but the meat/protein is less. The main thing with the orijen is not to overfeed, because of the richness - I don't want an overweight dog!

Thanks for the advice, i'll let you know.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

im on another site and a woman has mentioned her dog having tear stains - usually seen around the summer months, it could be this or he could have had his head in a bush? Its not something ive associated with the food, i also thought their breath was realther nice? little meaty?  A carrot will help though


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## chestersmum (Sep 18, 2009)

He won't eat raw carrot. But I think I might have Sussed the breath thing. I was giving him the orijen with some warm water. Gave it without last night and breath was back to normal. Yay!

James1 have u had a look at the natural food company for ur dog. How do u think they compare? Sorry for all the questions I'm trying to learn as much as I can about dog food


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## hyper Springer (Jan 8, 2010)

yogibear said:


> I've called the Orijen (Bern Petfoods) for how much to feed but they've not called me back yet. The feeding guidelines are not that easy to get a grasp on, they talk of 'cups' and 'adult weight' - I'd rather go on the current weight, he's only just 5 months but he's 24Kg. I think i'll try reducing the amount that I give him, maybe suppliment it with rice/fish/egg every few days. Thinking about it, many say that extra protein will be 'wasted' and 'excreted' - maybe that results in sloppy poos? I also might move him onto the adult range as the contents are similar but the meat/protein is less. The main thing with the orijen is not to overfeed, because of the richness - I don't want an overweight dog!
> 
> Thanks for the advice, i'll let you know.


I had the runny poo problem on Origen recently and reduced his(30 wk old ESS) feed from 320 gms to 260 and hes fine now 

In fact his output is now only twice a day pretty much and his pipes are nice n dark and v solid 

As has been said before feed at the low end of there scale or less 

When we went to Vet recently she said build wise he is spot on  then gave me a free pack of bloody science plan which went straight into bin the list of ingredients was just shocking


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

chestersmum said:


> He won't eat raw carrot. But I think I might have Sussed the breath thing. I was giving him the orijen with some warm water. Gave it without last night and breath was back to normal. Yay!
> 
> James1 have u had a look at the natural food company for ur dog. How do u think they compare? Sorry for all the questions I'm trying to learn as much as I can about dog food


Yes ive looked at it , Dave was on here promoting it a while ago, Ive just checked the site to make sure im writing about the right one and for 43 pounds delivered, Vitalin lifestyle Adult at 30 pounds is better ingredient and price wise in my view


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## chestersmum (Sep 18, 2009)

Thanks James


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## yogibear (Mar 4, 2010)

hyper Springer said:


> I had the runny poo problem on Origen recently and reduced his(30 wk old ESS) feed from 320 gms to 260 and hes fine now
> 
> In fact his output is now only twice a day pretty much and his pipes are nice n dark and v solid
> 
> ...


Yes, I've heard that most vets get their fees paid for while at College by Science Plan so they push it onto customers where they can.

I've had an email back from Bern (UK supplier for Orijen) - she has told me to feed him between 350-400g per day - total - no more. That goes against what's on the back of the bag, I'm sure it says feed him 500-600 so I'm going to cut it down as of today. Thanks again for the info.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

the woman at Bern is the nutritionist - id go with the lower amount in anycase


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## chestersmum (Sep 18, 2009)

As I said previously Chester has been on orijen for 3 weeks but I'm not 100% sure it's right for him. My concerns are his eyes are extra gooey I used to wipe them in the morning and they would be fine all day,now they need wiping with a wet cloth as they are quite dry and they need wiping a couple of times a day. His barking in the house seems to have got worse and his coat isn't as shiny as it used to be. Do u think I should give it a bit longer to see the benefits? He seems to enjoy it just don't no what to do for the best


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## georgie (Feb 25, 2010)

Hi James
Apologies for interrupting - not sure what the rules are as I am a new girl on the forum today !Please advise if i am not allowed to post in this way ! Am interested in your opinion on my similar situation - I have a nearly 12 week old dalmation cross puppy who came to us on beta puppy and we have just finished the gradual change to burns canin extra ( recommended by pet shop owned by ex vet nurse )- he looks very ribby ( not sure if this is just normal puppy growth as he's growing so fast at the moment ) and now has quite dry skin . We were also advised burns as it is calming and i have read this many times on the forum however pup is livelier than ever ! You mention Orijen is settling - please could you explain more? Also I am told that the dalmation side of our dog might not do so well on particular brands.Sorry for the now lengthy interruption!
Many thanks
Georgie


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

chestersmum said:


> As I said previously Chester has been on orijen for 3 weeks but I'm not 100% sure it's right for him. My concerns are his eyes are extra gooey I used to wipe them in the morning and they would be fine all day,now they need wiping with a wet cloth as they are quite dry and they need wiping a couple of times a day. His barking in the house seems to have got worse and his coat isn't as shiny as it used to be. Do u think I should give it a bit longer to see the benefits? He seems to enjoy it just don't no what to do for the best


if your worried about it and are seeing changes you dont like, change off it... have to say both my dogs coats are nice and shiney, the pup did have a little dandruff early on but this may have been a growing thing as he doesnt have it anymore. I think charlie is 3? The ingredients are there but if its not agreeing - go to one that suits more? Both my dogs eyes are cool - bit of sleep in them in the morn but apart from that - I maybe only wipe them once more throughout the day..???


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

georgie said:


> Hi James
> Apologies for interrupting - not sure what the rules are as I am a new girl on the forum today !Please advise if i am not allowed to post in this way ! Am interested in your opinion on my similar situation - I have a nearly 12 week old dalmation cross puppy who came to us on beta puppy and we have just finished the gradual change to burns canin extra ( recommended by pet shop owned by ex vet nurse )- he looks very ribby ( not sure if this is just normal puppy growth as he's growing so fast at the moment ) and now has quite dry skin . We were also advised burns as it is calming and i have read this many times on the forum however pup is livelier than ever ! You mention Orijen is settling - please could you explain more? Also I am told that the dalmation side of our dog might not do so well on particular brands.Sorry for the now lengthy interruption!
> Many thanks
> Georgie


Orijen doesnt put that much weight on them, considering the fat and protein content is a lot higher than 90% of the foods out there it just doesnt work like that. The calming, is really just an observation made - people think high protein foods makes them bounce off the walls - its not a fix for a hyper dog, its largely chosen as its ingredients are the best on the market.
Im surprised the Burns didnt calm him down, it usually does - it has very good base ingredients. The hyperactivity comes from sugars, addatives and preservatives which Burns doesnt have. Your dally may just be pleased to be around you, excited at seeing you, this is a plus really as it means hes wanting to engage with you, meaning training should be easy. 
With any boisterous dog you have to look at what your telling it and how you act/react to what he does - food wont change an exciting household if you know what I mean so you have to be consistent in what you do/say as far as promoting good rules ...  Orijen is a good food but its not one to buy if your looking to solve unwanted behaviour...


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## chestersmum (Sep 18, 2009)

Thanks James. I must admit I am tempted to put him back on the barking heads I'm so confused about it all. I'm going to crufts next week so might have a word with the orijen stand just want the best for him. I might Also speak to the skinners people as I hear their food is good also


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

id say youd get better value for money with orijen over barking heads - if barking heads havent put their prices up at least. Either way i know youve only been using it for 3 weeks but if its not suiting its not suiting.. id be tempted to give it a while longer and at least use up what youve bought before changing


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## chestersmum (Sep 18, 2009)

Yes I probably will if he's eating it I can always add a bit of yumega oil and see if that makes any difference to his coat & eyes. Thank you do much James I no I'm a pain in the butt! Lol


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

james1 said:


> how old is sailor? he'll be loving you long time if you start feeding him it lol


sorry didnt get back to you on that one, but I dont come onto the boards that often, and by the time I do , theres been a trillion posts and I cant keep up lol

Sailor is 15 weeks old and about 10 kilos, his orijen should be here after the weekend i think


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

chestersmum said:


> Yes I probably will if he's eating it I can always add a bit of yumega oil and see if that makes any difference to his coat & eyes. Thank you do much James I no I'm a pain in the butt! Lol


haha no ya not - im just wondering what people are thinking of me though - its like im the fountain of all knowledge or something lol ... must get a different hobby lol  the yumega ive heard good reports on - have you thought about a tin of sardines a week? this may help? Dont give them every day as they will make them loose but they are good for coat condition


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

sailor said:


> sorry didnt get back to you on that one, but I dont come onto the boards that often, and by the time I do , theres been a trillion posts and I cant keep up lol
> 
> Sailor is 15 weeks old and about 10 kilos, his orijen should be here after the weekend i think


my comment was going to be (if ya appeared earlier) to use another food to break him in on as its very rich on their tums early on. Id have waited until about 5 odd months but he'll like it nontheless - hope it suits. You could maybe cut it with a cheaper food sort of a 50/50 mix?


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## chestersmum (Sep 18, 2009)

james1 said:


> haha no ya not - im just wondering what people are thinking of me though - its like im the fountain of all knowledge or something lol ... must get a different hobby lol  the yumega ive heard good reports on - have you thought about a tin of sardines a week? this may help? Dont give them every day as they will make them loose but they are good for coat condition


I have some in the cupboard will give him some in the morning with a bit of kibble also. I have found you so helpful you know your stuff and give honest opinions which help a lot of us who aren't so knowledgeable

maybeyou should do a top ten of food !


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

james1 said:


> my comment was going to be (if ya appeared earlier) to use another food to break him in on as its very rich on their tums early on. Id have waited until about 5 odd months but he'll like it nontheless - hope it suits. You could maybe cut it with a cheaper food sort of a 50/50 mix?


Well we still have a fair bit of food to get through at the moment, as my neighbour just gave me alot of different puppy foods... as she was changing foods on her border collie pup... she ended up on hills science plan... so I now have pedigree puppy dry , pets @ home puppy dry , pedigree puppy wet, butchers puppy wet to get through.

Im lucky with Sailor, as he seems to beable to get through everything and never get the runs... sometimes discoloured poops.... abit lighter than normal, or abit firmer... but never runny poops or any drastic changes.... so his making his way through alot of diff foods right now... and his loving it all, with no probs at all.

Altho, Ive noticed his skin seems a little dry, as when I fuss him, he looks like he has dandruff.. but on a whole, healthy happy and content puppy. Tail always held high and wagginng, wet nose majority of time, Ive been blessed with a little darling of a dog


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

chestersmum said:


> I have some in the cupboard will give him some in the morning with a bit of kibble also. I have found you so helpful you know your stuff and give honest opinions which help a lot of us who aren't so knowledgeable
> 
> maybeyou should do a top ten of food !


I couldnt think of that many i could recommend tbh im a bit fussy lol, having only tried a few too (which have all worked out well) I couldnt really say what works for what I dont think  Just had a neighbour tell me her dog, alongside being dysplasic inboth hips and both elbows whe is also intollerant to chicken, rice, wheat, yeast and something else, i couldnt think of one but im going to try a little searching


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

sailor said:


> Ive been blessed with a little darling of a dog


He does look a sweet - he a staffie?


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

james1 said:


> He does look a sweet - he a staffie?


3 part staff and 1 part rotti

Your spaniel is a beaut btw.. Ive always loved the springer spaniel, but found them to be too hyper and happy for me lol

my dad has a springer mix, brilliant dog

I saw a springer at the vets last week... had a sore paw and a buster colour on... it was just stood there staring into space wagging its tail and panting, with the best expression of delulsion and joy on its face ever, brought a smile to my face and I couldnt stop smiling about it for hours after 

couldnt have been from drugs either, because he hadnt seen the vet.. he was just about to go in lol bless him


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## nightingale (Oct 31, 2008)

sailor said:


> 3 part staff and 1 part rotti
> 
> Your spaniel is a beaut btw.. Ive always loved the springer spaniel, but found them to be too hyper and happy for me lol
> 
> ...


I so agree with you . I have a Welsh springer and he is sooo gorgeous and ever so friendly with everyone ...dogs and cats too. He loves going into the vets and he will go right in and sit on the weighing scale. The nurses and the staff absolutely love him and the people who come keep talking about him and his smiling face . He is very active and luckily for me hasn't chewed up anything around and he trains very well too. he will be one year this 27th .... 
yours looks super ...BTW mine is on Orijen ,,.


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## victoriaj (Oct 21, 2009)

james1 said:


> it is isnt it, i dont mind paying for good foods but its a bit of a hike from 90 pounds to 110. Too much for me anyway. Ive not seen the offer on the above, are your sure its their Lifestyle range and not their original formula? Their original formula isnt that good i dont think, the lifestyles is the new introduction..


oh maybe that was it then ... well i think i may go over to skinners and put a bit of natures diet in it oooooooooooh its so confusing


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## dvnbiker (Dec 2, 2009)

the thing to remember is that not all dogs suit all foods. My BC bitch really suits orijen and she does great on it but it doesnt suit my WSD and gives him sloppy poos. My other boy does well on anything so they are both on AG. 

As a 7kg bag last ages with just one dog on it she will continue to stay on it unless anything better comes on the market although acana is tempting being slightly less expensive but just as good ingredients.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Acanas due to be distributed for sale in 8 weeks so i hear  looks great to me


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## nightingale (Oct 31, 2008)

james1 said:


> Acanas due to be distributed for sale in 8 weeks so i hear  looks great to me


I have seen that it is already being sold through the internet ....will they be sold in the pet stores then ?


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

just had a quick search - at zooplus its more expensive than orijen is!! ???? from 54 - 62 pounds????


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## chestersmum (Sep 18, 2009)

james1 said:


> just had a quick search - at zooplus its more expensive than orijen is!! ???? from 54 - 62 pounds????


I wonder if they are going to have it on their stand at crufts. If they are I might get a small bag for Chester and see how it goes. Do u think it would need the gradual switch over like other foods? James when u have a minute could u digest the small breed product Acana do and let me no what u think

thanks
nikki


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

The idea of Acana is to give the the same ingredients in less %ages, meaning its a cheaper alternative to Orijen, Acana also do foods that have things like oats in which orijen doesnt. I wouldnt change and pay more for acana personally, the small breed does have oats in - the whole reason why kibbles range in price is because of their ingredients - ones that are high in cereal as a general are cheaper as the ingredients dont cost as much as meats. They are reputable, so if you do change it will probably suit, but Orijen at 50 pounds now, I wouldnt pay 10 extra to get less.


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## chestersmum (Sep 18, 2009)

james1 said:


> The idea of Acana is to give the the same ingredients in less %ages, meaning its a cheaper alternative to Orijen, Acana also do foods that have things like oats in which orijen doesnt. I wouldnt change and pay more for acana personally, the small breed does have oats in - the whole reason why kibbles range in price is because of their ingredients - ones that are high in cereal as a general are cheaper as the ingredients dont cost as much as meats. They are reputable, so if you do change it will probably suit, but Orijen at 50 pounds now, I wouldnt pay 10 extra to get less.


I just checked the feeding guide and I would have to feed Chester an extra 40grams per day. So I don't think it would work out very cost effective. Still will wait and see when the prices are annouced across all the distributers

I couldn't see what % was oats in the small breed food if it's a tiny amount I may well try a sample


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## chestersmum (Sep 18, 2009)

I have just found it. 20% oats & rice. James do you think this is slot in relation to the other ingredients? Or would the grain free one be better?


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## LucyJ (Jul 3, 2008)

chestersmum said:


> I have just found it. 20% oats & rice. James do you think this is slot in relation to the other ingredients? Or would the grain free one be better?


Acana do grain free as well as with oats so I think that there may be some confusion. I may try the grain free.


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## chestersmum (Sep 18, 2009)

LucyJ said:


> Acana do grain free as well as with oats so I think that there may be some confusion. I may try the grain free.


I agree about it being confusing. Looking at the prices so far it's cheaper for me to carry on with orijen


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

LucyJ said:


> Acana do grain free as well as with oats so I think that there may be some confusion. I may try the grain free.


the grain free was 64 pounds with zooplus as I remember... wilde prairie or something ? weird.


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## chestersmum (Sep 18, 2009)

Where do they get these names from. Can't believe how expensive it is. Ridiculous!hmy:


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## LucyJ (Jul 3, 2008)

My pet shop says Acana is cheaper than Orijen and will be in the UK, he has spoken to his rep so we will have to wait and see. It's cheaper in Canada than Orijen


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## chestersmum (Sep 18, 2009)

On zooplus it's £64


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## LucyJ (Jul 3, 2008)

chestersmum said:


> On zooplus it's £64


Zooplus is the German company that ship to the UK.
I'll call in the pet shop later and see if they have prices


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

they may as well round it out to an even 100


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## chestersmum (Sep 18, 2009)

LucyJ said:


> Zooplus is the German company that ship to the UK.
> I'll call in the pet shop later and see if they have prices


Oohh please let us know. Makes you wonder why a food they openly admit on their website is slighty inferior to orijen is costing more


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## chestersmum (Sep 18, 2009)

Pricing from supaprice.co.uk(which takes you through to zooplus again!) 2.5kg bags from £15.90-£17.49 depending on variety. 13.5kg bags from £54.99-£62.90. You can also get "economy" packs of 2x13.5 kg bags from £98.98-£113.99


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## LucyJ (Jul 3, 2008)

From the pet shop who rang Bern for me!!
Chicken and fish ( I didn't write all the names, sorry) 13.5 is £46.99
Fish, £52.99
Lamb and , £57.99

Don't take this as the only ingredients, I just made a few quick notes
The feeding guide is on the Champion website, I'll take a look later.
Might try a bag, should be in some time in April


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## chestersmum (Sep 18, 2009)

That's a bit cheaper. We will see in April then !


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## chezkat (Mar 2, 2010)

Hi all, 
Just after some more advice really! Since I cut Troys food down to 300g a day, thank god he has started to have firm poos! And the farts have reduced too. I am just worried he is starting to look too skinny. He has a carrot every day after his tea but I feel like I'm starving him! 
Should I feed an extra 50g or 100g? I really dont want him to have those horrible poos again as its a nightmare! For him, straining and me pickin it up! Hope someone can help and thanks!
Chez
P.S He's a mastiff cross at 5 and half month weighing 24kg


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

No the lower amount will work, he'll put weight on naturally, dont rush him. What your seeing is how your dog should look. He will even out at a weight and then put it on gradually.


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## chezkat (Mar 2, 2010)

james1 said:


> No the lower amount will work, he'll put weight on naturally, dont rush him. What your seeing is how your dog should look. He will even out at a weight and then put it on gradually.


Thanks James, to the rescue again! I know he needs to look skinny its just his ribs are very visable. Will leave it for now and see how he goes. Thank you Chez


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

a well looked after dog is always leggy and boney as a pup, he'll fill later and be fitter for it, hes not carrying any excess weight  Odd table scraps and treats will keep him busy if you like, the lower amount is where its at, increase it when hes older (10mths + if you like) and see how he goes


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Thanks James, 
Heidi has become v lean lately and is almost a year old now. I am pleased with this but OH feels she's lost weight and needs to put it back on.
Scales say she is exactly the same funnily enough?? Vet is pleased with her weight too. Obviously this is the way it's meant to go.
Glad of your input as usual.


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## chestersmum (Sep 18, 2009)

I'm still waiting for Chester to get a bit thinner. He's just under 11kgs but I'm feeding him the amount for a 10kg dog (115grms). Hopefully I will start go see the difference soon


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