# What length long line do you use? Any tips on training recall?



## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

I'm looking at getting a long line to walk Maisy on. We're not sure exactly how old she is as we seem to have been her third home before she was nine months old, we and the vet think she is around a year old now.

We walked her on a flexi for about a month after her jabs, which we decided to get redone as her previous owner failed to forward any paperwork to us and would not speak to us after she'd received her money and we'd taken Maisy away. She was pretty good on the flexi, but very bad at walking on a short lead - she'd obviously never been trained in the slightest on a lead, so I doubt she was walked or socialised much before we got her. 

So, once her jabs were done, we started taking her to dog training once a week and continue to do so. Her on lead walking has improved with the introduction of a Halti and then a Canny collar. While I don't intend this to be a long term solution, it does mean we can walk the 50 feet or so to the woods in under half an hour now, as before we stopped and turned around every time she pulled. We did this for a couple of weeks, and it was absolutely exhausting.

This is all a bit of background really, in case it helps anyone figure out her mindset a little. The issue we're having now is trusting her off lead. Up until recently she was pretty good, would come when called and stay with us until we sent her away again, and to some extent still does this. Her problem is when she sees other dogs - yesterday and today she rushed over to the same group of dog owners to say hello. She would recall a bit when we whistled, but then clearly decided the other dogs were more exciting and went to play with them. (I think the reason this hasn't been an issue before, thinking back on it, is that we rarely meet other people or dogs when out walking, and when we do it is at the start or end of a walk, meaning she's on her lead).

Now, the owners clearly don't mind at all, but this just isn't acceptable to me - it's certain that sooner or later we'll come across dogs that don't like being raced up to, or people who don't like dogs and will be upset at her approach. 

This is absolutely their right, and they are quite entitled to feel like this. While we know she isn't going to do anyone any harm and just wants to play with the dogs and be cuddled by the humans, how do they know that? And why should they have to deal with it even if they do? So until such time as we are sure she will recall and STAY recalled when off the lead, I feel I would like to walk her on a long line.

I want to try this as she can still have the freedom to explore, sniff around, and chase a ball a (very) short distance, but we will have complete control of her, so she can't just race off when she feels like it.

This is very frustrating to have to regress a step, and I find it quite upsetting too  but I think it is the best thing to do for now. 

This post is quite a bit longer than originally intended, so I'll shut up now - my original questions were going to be, what length long line do you find works for you? How do you use it, trailing or hold it? How long have you found it takes to teach your dog a solid recall? Bearing in mind Maisy does recall at the moment, we just need to work on her doing it when she is distracted. My OH wanted me to add that she always jumps up at people too, and if she didn't do this we'd be halfway there - if we can control her excitement enough that she won't jump up at strangers, if you see what I mean? We already push her off when she jumps up at us.

If you've got this far and would like to give me any tips or even just anecdotes of your own experience, that would be very much appreciated  This is something that's really worrying me; I don't want to have to walk her on a lead for evermore when I'm sure it is something that can be sorted with a bit of effort.


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## blitzens mum (Jul 15, 2012)

i use a 50ft one, it takes a bit of practice but i am learning to feed it out with the dog and wind it back in if the dog stops or comes back to me, else he gets his legs tangled up in it
my dog rarely gets more than 10 minutes a day off lead walk as he can be aggresive towards some strangers, but i find on the long lead its not such a problem, we've took him to the beach and in the sea and he always enjoys himself
at the moment my recall word is cheese as i carry a tube of primula cheese which blitz really loves and he only ever has this when we are out


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

blitzens mum said:


> i use a 50ft one, it takes a bit of practice but i am learning to feed it out with the dog and wind it back in if the dog stops or comes back to me, else he gets his legs tangled up in it
> my dog rarely gets more than 10 minutes a day off lead walk as he can be aggresive towards some strangers, but i find on the long lead its not such a problem, we've took him to the beach and in the sea and he always enjoys himself
> at the moment my recall word is cheese as i carry a tube of primula cheese which blitz really loves and he only ever has this when we are out


I love the idea of a recall word being 'cheese', I think I'll try that!  'Maisy come,' or 'come here,' always seems a bit wishy washy to me, as it's something I'm quite likely to say at home without thinking about it. A tube of Primula sounds like a good idea too, if we only use it for recall when we're out - I guess she'd know it was a 'special' treat then?

What kind of line do you use? I've seen some really thin paracord ones, but guess a thick tape type one would be better since you can actually hold it?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Just quickly reading your post, do you have a release command to tell her it's ok to go off and do what she wants?

Obviously it's early days with her being a rescue, but worth building this command in if you didn't have it in mind, or didn't know about it. I tell mine to 'Go play' once I release them to let them just free run.


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## blitzens mum (Jul 15, 2012)

i cant remember the make of the line i use, its black and quite wide, also you need to use a well fitted harnness with a long line too else you will hurt your dogs neck
when i first saw the length of mine i was worried it was too long but i have soon got used to it, also a pair of gloves is good too
mine is quite light weight but gets a bit heavier when it gets wet, which it does alot as blitzen loves water and also it often trails on the ground 
your exactly right about the special treat when they are out it does make them more eager to respond. i start off by letting him have a lick and i say cheese annd then jjust re enforce it all the time


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just quickly reading your post, do you have a release command to tell her it's ok to go off and do what she wants?
> 
> Obviously it's early days with her being a rescue, but worth building this command in if you didn't have it in mind, or didn't know about it. I tell mine to 'Go play' once I release them to let them just free run.


Yes, we do, we say 'go on then' once she has sat and stayed while we're taking her lead off and hooking her Canny collar out of the way. We also use this when we make her sit and wait before we feed her - she seems to get the idea that once we say it she can go and do what she likes.



blitzens mum said:


> i cant remember the make of the line i use, its black and quite wide, also you need to use a well fitted harnness with a long line too else you will hurt your dogs neck
> when i first saw the length of mine i was worried it was too long but i have soon got used to it, also a pair of gloves is good too
> mine is quite light weight but gets a bit heavier when it gets wet, which it does alot as blitzen loves water and also it often trails on the ground
> your exactly right about the special treat when they are out it does make them more eager to respond. i start off by letting him have a lick and i say cheese annd then jjust re enforce it all the time


A harness is definitely a good idea, I'd imagine they can build up quite a speed in 50 feet - not something that's going to do her any good going through her neck!


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## blitzens mum (Jul 15, 2012)

Megan345 said:


> Yes, we do, we say 'go on then' once she has sat and stayed while we're taking her lead off and hooking her Canny collar out of the way. We also use this when we make her sit and wait before we feed her - she seems to get the idea that once we say it she can go and do what she likes.
> 
> A harness is definitely a good idea, I'd imagine they can build up quite a speed in 50 feet - not something that's going to do her any good going through her neck!


if you reel them out slowly its not too bad, blitzen is getting used to it now, tho i have been wrapped around several trees and today i nearly ended up in the river


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## totallypets (Dec 30, 2011)

Maisy has become a teenager! I had this exact problem with one of the dogs that I walk, at 10 months she stopped coming back even though her recall had been perfect up until then. I started walking her with a trailing long line, it was only 5 metres long as she didn't run off just stayed far enough away that I couldn't get her to go back on the lead. 

I walk another dog who is about 19 months old and has Elbow Dysplasia so isn't allowed to run off to greet other dogs. She will now recall to me when we see another dog, walk to heel or sit and wait until they get close enough so that she wont aggravate her elbow and I then release her to greet the dogs.

I've met quite a few owners recently who aren't doing anything to work on recall/training with their teenage tearaways. Well done you on being proactive, and don't worry it's only a faze.


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

totallypets said:


> Maisy has become a teenager! I had this exact problem with one of the dogs that I walk, at 10 months she stopped coming back even though her recall had been perfect up until then. I started walking her with a trailing long line, it was only 5 metres long as she didn't run off just stayed far enough away that I couldn't get her to go back on the lead.
> 
> I walk another dog who is about 19 months old and has Elbow Dysplasia so isn't allowed to run off to greet other dogs. She will now recall to me when we see another dog, walk to heel or sit and wait until they get close enough so that she wont aggravate her elbow and I then release her to greet the dogs.
> 
> I've met quite a few owners recently who aren't doing anything to work on recall/training with their teenage tearaways. Well done you on being proactive, and don't worry it's only a faze.


Thank you! That helps to put my mind at rest a bit that maybe it wasn't anything we started to do wrong, or didn't do right in the first place. Hopefully with a bit more training it'll all click back into place


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Megan345 said:


> I'm looking at getting a long line to walk Maisy on. We're not sure exactly how old she is as we seem to have been her third home before she was nine months old, we and the vet think she is around a year old now.
> 
> We walked her on a flexi for about a month after her jabs, which we decided to get redone as her previous owner failed to forward any paperwork to us and would not speak to us after she'd received her money and we'd taken Maisy away. She was pretty good on the flexi, but very bad at walking on a short lead - she'd obviously never been trained in the slightest on a lead, so I doubt she was walked or socialised much before we got her.
> 
> ...


Just did this on another thread its walking on lead and recall might be some use to you so Ive C&Pd it over to save typing it out again. Warning its rather long.
Obviousy its in answer to the question of the other member but it does cover recall further down.

Its often the case that they are model obdience at home simply because they have no other distractions or anything new and out the ordinary to look at, so its easier to get focus of you and get them listening to commands.

Once out with new sights and smells and different things to explore different story tons more stuff thats more interesting then you are there. You often start to see it more when they reach and are in adolescence. As smaller pups and before adolesence they are more dependant and eager to please, come adolescence and they have bigger fish to fry your just boring. Unless you try to make yourself more interesting and rewarding.

When he is on lead the more he pulls forward intent where he is going and the more you pull back the more you are giving him something to pull against so try not to do it. Sometimes if your dawdling a bit that doesnt help so try to speed up a bit to a more faster pace. Have treats in your hand favourites are cheese chicken hot dogs sausages and anything liver based. Make sure you try to engage him and focus on him letting him know you have the treats. Try to keep him by your side luring him at first if you have to, so he is by your side with a loose lead. If he is toy orientated take a toy too.

If he starts to head for the end of the lead you need to do something before he gets into really pulling. lure him back to where you want him on a loose lead and when he is there reward him and carry on, never jerk him back just continue to keep focus on him and engaging him if he starts to go forward lure him back again rewarding when he is back where he should be. Make sure while you are walking he is keeping focus on you, change speed, also change direction use your voice and the treats or toys to lure him if your changing direction turning away from him. If your turning towards him walk around him using the leg nearest to him first reward him regularly when he is where you want him. Try getting him to walk to heel off lead when you are out too using the same techniques to keep him focused on you and by your side, start in places with fewer distractions at first and places that are not new to perfect it. Get him to walk where you want him to be next to you off lead can help when he is on.

Starting the walk before you leave the house in control too can help. Getting him to sit when you put his lead on, then sitting at the door, and while it is opened, and then waiting until you go through first and call him out. waiting while you lock the door and setting off with him by your side as you leave can help too rather then him starting the walk hyped up and dragging you out the door at the start.

With off lead and recall, the more he knows he can sniff do his own thing and ignore you if he wants the worse he is going to get. You need to go back to basics with the recall training, and while you are doing it keep him on a little harness and long line while you are doing it.

Again have treats and toys that he loves most like squeaky toys, balls etc.
When you get there dont let him have free reign at first, do some walking to heel on a short lead, then you can give him more freedom on the long line.
You need to call him back periodically throughout the walk and certainly when he starts to wander too far and start to sniff and get distracted, call him back reward with a treat when he comes, get him to walk with you for a minute or two and then send him away with go play again. Vary the rewards when you call him back, sometimes throw a ball a few times, others play with the squeaky toy, others call and run in the other direction and get him to come back and chase you. You can hide behind a tree call him and reward him when he comes. But after each reward you send him away with go play again. By doing this it should keep you interesting as he doesnt know what he is going to get by way of reward, as you are sending him off again with go play he should be less wary of coming to you. If you give him his freedom and then put a lead on and go home at the end he will learn coming back means end of fun and drag his feet or not come back at all. Dont run after him either and try to catch him, they soon learn they can move faster then you and can run off and avoid you.

If he has got deaf to your voice and learned to ignore you, try using a whistle.
You need to start at home walking around and literally whistle treat whistle treat he should follow you around. After a few sessions of this, then try it when he is in the garden and stand by the back door, when he comes treat him. Then try it from inside the house when he is out the garden. If he comes reward him. Then you can start using it outside.

Once he has become solid at recall on the long line, drop it and use it as a drag line. Doing all the same things you did before. This way if he does ignore you and miss a recall or loiters you can grab it an get him to come back. Once he is reliable on the drag line, then you can start to let him off.

Start at first still doing all the same things. start in more confined areas with lesser distractions and as he passes the test, then you can go to areas with more distractions and build up as long as his recall stays solid. if he goes off track then go back to the long line for a few sessions then the drag line so he cant get into bad habits and to get him back on track.

It might help too if you consider going to training classes that way he is training with distractions as well. Welcome to APDT - Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK should find classes in your area.


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

All of that's really useful, thank you. She does still need a bit of training with walking on the lead, so that's brilliant


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

*Why cant I get a reliable recall?*

Come is no harder to train than any other behaviour but in real life it has a huge number of criteria that have to be raised one at a time in order to guarantee success.

Often when puppies are brought home to their new owners this is the first time they have ever been separated from their dam and siblings and so they naturally attach themselves to their new family by following them about everywhere. Owners find this quite attractive and wrongly assume that this trait will continue into adolescence/adulthood, whatever the circumstances. A dangerous trap to fall into

At some point in time, usually from around 6  10 months, depending on the individual, Velcro dog will morph into Bog off dog (this is especially true of a breed that has been developed to exhibit a high degree of initiative). This is the time when owners suddenly realize that their dog will not recall when it sees another dog/person etc. Not only is this inconvenient but potentially dangerous as the dog could be at risk of injury from a car/train/another dog etc.

*How and when do I start with a puppy?*

My advice is to prepare for this inevitability from the day you take your puppy home. If you are lucky the breeder will have started this process whilst still in the nest by conditioning the puppies to a whistle blown immediately before putting the food bowl down during weaning.

Dogs learn by cause and effect ie sound of whistle = food. If you, the new owner, continue this from the moment your puppy arrives you will lay down strong foundations for the future.

By using the whistle in association with meals/food you need to establish the following criteria:

	Come from across the room. 
	Come from out of sight 
	Come no matter who calls
	Come even if you are busy doing something else
	Come even if you are asleep. 
	Come even if you are playing with something/someone else
	Come even if you are eating

Once this goal has been realized in the house, drop all the criteria to zero and establish the same measures, one at a time, in the garden.

Once this goal has been realized in the garden, drop all the criteria to zero and establish the same measures, one at a time, in the park/field etc.

To train this, or any other behaviour:

1.	Make it easy for the dog to get it right
2.	Provide sufficient reward

Do not expect a dog to come away from distractions in the park until you have trained it to come to you in the park when no diversions are around. Be realistic and manage your expectations; your sphere of influence/control over your dog may be only 20m to begin with, therefore do not hazard a guess that the dog, at this level of training, will successfully recall from 50m or more away. Distance, like every other criterion, must be built up over time.

Some simple rules to follow when training the recall:

	Whistle/signal/call only once (why train the dog to deliberately ignore your first command?)
	Do not reinforce slow responses for the dog coming eventually after it has cocked its leg, sniffed the tree etc (you get what you train!)
	If you know that the dog will not come back to you in a certain situation, go and get him rather than risk teaching him that he can ignore you. (If you have followed the programme correctly you will never put your dog in a position to fail).
	Practise recalling the dog, putting him on the lead for a few seconds, reinforce with food/toy etc and immediately release the dog. Do this several times during a walk etc so that the dog does not associate a recall with going on the lead and ending the walk or being put on the lead with the cessation of fun.
	Eventually, when the behaviour is very strong, alternate rewards ie verbal praise, physical praise, food, toy and also vary the value of the rewards, sometimes a plain piece of biscuit, sometimes a piece of cooked liver etc so that you become a walking slot machine (and we all know how addictive gambling can be)!

In my experience recall training should be consistent and relentless for the first two years of a dogs life before it can be considered truly dependable. You should look on it as a series of incremental steps, rather than a single simple behaviour, and something that will require lifelong maintenance.

*What about an older or rescue dog?*

Follow the same programme as outlined above however for recalcitrant dogs that have received little or no training, I would recommend dispensing with the food bowl and feeding a dog only during recalls to establish a strong behaviour quickly.

Your training should be over several sessions a day, which means you can avoid the risk of bloat. It is essential that the dog learns that there will be consequences for failure as well as success.

Divide the days food ration up into small bags (between10  30), if the dog recalls first time, it gets food, if it does not, you can make a big show of saying too bad and disposing of that portion of food (either throw it away or put aside for the next day).

Again, raise the criteria slowly as outlined in puppy training.

Hunger is very motivating!

For those of you who believe it unfair/unhealthy to deprive a dog of its full daily ration, not having a reliable recall is potentially life threatening for the dog 

*How do I stop my dog chasing joggers/cyclists/skateboarders/rabbits/deer?*

Chasing something that is moving is a management issue. Do not put your dog in a position where it can make a mistake. Again you need to start training from a pup but if you have already allowed your dog to learn and practise this behaviour you may need to rely on a trailing line until your dog is desensitised to these distractions and knows that listening to you results in a great reinforcement. Chasing is a behaviour much better never learned as it is naturally reinforcing to the dog, which makes it hard for you to offer a better reinforcement. If you want to have a bombproof recall while your dog is running away from you then use the following approach:

Your goal is to train so that your dog is totally used to running away from you at top speed, and then turning on a sixpence to run toward you when you give the recall cue.

You need to set up the training situation so that you have total control over the triggers. For this you will need to gain the co-operation of a helper. If you have a toy crazy dog you can practice this exercise by throwing a toy away from the dog towards someone standing 30 or 40 feet away. At the instant the toy is thrown, recall your dog! If the dog turns toward you, back up several steps quickly, creating even more distance between the you and the toy and then throw another toy in the opposite direction (same value as one thrown)..

If the dog ignores you and continues toward the thrown object, your helper simply picks the ball up and ignores dog. When dog eventually returns (which it will because its getting no reinforcement from anyone or anything), praise only. Pretty soon the dog will start to respond to a recall off a thrown toy. You will need to mix in occasions the toy is thrown and the dog is allowed to get it ie you do NOT recall if you want to make sure it does not lose enthusiasm for retrieving.

For the food obsessed dog, you can get your helper to wave a food bowl with something the dog loves in it and then recall the dog as soon as you let it go to run towards the food; again if the dog ignores you and continues to the food, your helper simply ensures the dog cannot access the food and start again. (It is extremely important that the helper does not use your dogs name to call it for obvious reasons).

Gradually increase the difficulty of the recall by letting the dog get closer and closer to the toy/food. Praise the moment the dog turns away from the toy/food in the 
early stages of training. Don't wait until the dog returns to you; the dog must have instant feedback.

Once the dog is fluent at switching directions in the middle of a chase, try setting up the situation so that it is more like real life. Have someone ride a bike/run/skate past. (It is unrealistic to factor in deer/rabbits however if your training is thorough the dog will eventually be conditioned to return to you whatever the temptation in most contexts).

Until your training gets to this level, don't let the dog off-lead in a situation in which you don't have control over the chase triggers. Don't set the dog up to fail, and don't allow it to rehearse the problem behaviour. Remember, every time a dog is able to practise an undesirable behaviour it will get better at it!

Most people do not play with toys correctly and therefore the dog is not interested in them or, if it gets them, fails to bring it back to the owner.

Play the two ball game, once you have a dog ball crazy. Have two balls the same, throw one to the left, when the dog gets it, call him like crazy waving the next ball; as he comes back throw the other ball to the right and keep going left right so that YOU are the centre of the game and the dog gets conditioned to return to you for the toy. Once this behaviour is established you can then introduce the cues for out and then make control part of the game ie the game is contingent on the dog sitting and then progress to a sequence of behaviours.

HTH


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Ultimate Recall: 4 Day Course with John Rogerson

• Training a reliable, automatic, non-negotiable, reality recall
• Building block and foundation training of the recall
• Relationship/influence building in recall training
• The chasing/emergency recall
• Sit and/or down on recall
• Freeze/stop on recall/running wait
• Distance/direction control
• Calling dogs off of distractions
• Out of sight recall (owner hidden)
• Obedience/competition recall (dog is called from a stationary position)
• Free running recall (dog is called while in motion)
• Type "A" recall (dog re-joins his owner in motion)

JOHN RESERVES THE RIGHT TO ADJUST COURSE CONTENT BASED ON THE ABILITIES OF DOGS AND HANDLERS ENROLLED ON THE COURSE.

Dates for Ultimate Recall Course:

At Nottingham, England
26th - 29th October, 2012; 4 days duration 9.30-4.00 pm (Note: New Date!)
To register contact Beverly Smith at [email protected]

http://www.johnrogerson.com/2012coursesschedule.pdf

*Chase Recall Masterclass *

Date: Thursday 1st November 2012 Venue: Windsor, Berkshire Max handler places: 10
9.30am registration, 10.00am - 4pm Refreshments and a light lunch included

Following on from the fabulous Chase Recall Masterclass with Stella Bagshaw earlier this month, we are pleased to announce a date for the Chase Recall Practical Masterclass.

In this Masterclass we will be exploring:
How to tailor your training depending on your dog's scorpion level
How to build your training based on practical, workable exercises
How to move from one training level to the next in the real world
Perfecting the advanced "leave"
How, when and what signals to use
Line handling skills that make all the difference
Getting scent to work for you
Games to play with your dog on line
Dogs attending do not need to have a chase/recall issue, but it's a perfect opportunity if they do! Dogs do need
to be social with people and other dogs.

Please be assured that even if you don't bring a dog you will learn just as much from Stella's unique and innovative training approaches. Please note, the venue has a large hall and outside areas - we will be training in both, so please bring suitable outdoor wear.

Non handler place @ £130 (deposit £65) 
Handler @ £145 (deposit £65)

http://www.apdt.co.uk/documents/Chas...calNov2012.pdf

*Books*

Stop! How to control predatory Chasing in Dogs
by David Ryan

Chase! Managing Your Dog's Predatory Instincts 
By Clarissa Von Reinhardt

*DVD*

REALLY RELIABLE RECALL 
by Leslie Nelson

*Website articles:*

http://www.apdt.co.uk/documents/RECALL.pdf

http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/reliable_recall.pdf

Deposits into the Perfect Recall Account

List of Reinforcers

Distractions For Your Recall

How to Create a Motivating Toy

http://www.cleverdogcompany.com/tl_files/factsheets/Training a whistle recall.pdf

Teaching Come « Ahimsa Dog Blog

How do I stop my dog chasing? - David Ryan CCAB


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

Thank you!


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

50 foot line used with a harness with a between the shoulders clip so he's not yanking his neck.

For recall, we trained (retrained ) by keeping hold of the line, recalling, treating 60% of the time as trainer suggested then eventually dropping it and having it to stand on it necessary in a small area so he couldn't make a serious break for it.


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

Nice - that's exactly what I'm looking at buying as soon as I get paid. I'm quite looking forward to walking her on the beach without stressing out


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## peapie3 (Nov 16, 2012)

Hi, I'm new here,I Was looking online for a longer line that I already use and some posts came up on here. I had problems at first with tangling, both me and the dog. Then I was taught to only hold the end and let dog have full length or whatever length you decide for him to have. If enough slack is given the dog rarely gets tangled as the line is draped along ground. I confidently throw balls, kick up leaves which he leaps and twists in air for and no tangles, well not often.Only if I call him to me and he sits and dances around and the line gets a bit tangled on him. Leaving it loose but holding the end means no knots will suddenly appear as you are both attached to the ends. If you need to stop your dog to reel him in then step on the line. try a recall, if no response and you have to go to him then either walk along the line or pick up and do the wrapping around your hand to elbow thingy so the line stays neat. You can always try walking the other way so he has to,or hopefully wants to follow you!.
Has anyone used the Mikki or the Heim lines?i have a flat webbing one which is a bit heavy and bulky,but does seem strong and tough.i have been looking at the rope style and want about 20 metres, we are on 10 at the mo but with ball flinger thingy we need more. Also I think he knows he's on a lead and behaves better!!
Any suggestions for where to buy decent priced long long lines would be great!
Thanks


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