# One rule for us



## Happy Paws2

and another for them,
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52780561


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## CollieSlave

And, surprise, surprise, Number 10 (i.e. Boris) has deemed Cumming's trip "essential"! And I worry about driving a couple of miles to give the dog a walk, and accept that I have not been able to see my daughters and grandchildren for months!
Ah, well, They seem to be able to ignore any regulations if they wish.


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## Dave S

But it was quite legal apparently as it was the nearest baby sitter.
Don't know why Carrie could not have done the job.

I don't like or trust Cummings, I think he is evil behind the scenes and is only out to get his own way.


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## Cleo38

Always different rules for politicians or celebrities


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## Happy Paws2

Dave S said:


> But it was quite legal apparently as it was the nearest baby sitter.
> Don't know why Carrie could not have done the job.
> 
> *I don't like or trust Cummings, I think he is evil behind the scenes and is only out to get his own way.*


Nor me.. I think he is the power behind the throne, what he says BJ does.

edited..  I missed a word out


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## shadowmare

When this happened in Scotland torries demanded resignations. Now apparently it’s not a crime to “care for your child and wife”


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## lullabydream

How the hell do other families manage week in week out when they don't have the luxury on calling on family for childcare, if they are unwell.. Simply because family lives too far away. Then everyone gets a dreaded bug and feel terrible such as the winter vomiting one. It's awful but you manage... 

I would say I could understand this if anyone of them was hospitalised but no I can't actually as no visitors allowed. So you soldier on, like most people do, are following the blooming rules as they were laid out. 

I would say the children are no way vulnerable either. It makes a mockery of those that really are. As that's what they are saying to get him off the hook.


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## Kaily

I think it is absolutely disgusting and he should without doubt be fired (or shot at dawn).


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## Happy Paws2

Anyone listening to todays briefing with the Minster trying to justify what Cummings has done.


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## Sandysmum

I've never seen a minister so uncomfortable during these briefings. The press just wouldn't drop their line of questioning and he was squirming to keep answering. I don't think he believed what he was saying. Cummings should resign for flouting the rules, if he doesn't then Boris should fire him, but of course he won't.


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## lullabydream

Happy Paws2 said:


> Anyone listening to todays briefing with the Minster try to justify what Cummings has done.


I couldn't be bothered but I watching the news bit online after and interviewing people I don't get the reasoning.

Social workers, and other support agencies are not going in to people's houses in my area unless it's absolutely crucial. All via phone calls, and video calls and they have very vulnerable children. Am not talking about at risk children, but parents who need support due to children's additional needs which they can't have. These children are vulnerable and classed as vulnerable by the government now. However they can't actually get the help they desperately need due to their guide lines.


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## MollySmith

264 miles from London to Durham. Did he manage that without taking a break or is he really a robot.

This was queried by Mirror and Guardian on 5 April and Downing Street failed to answer, the Spectator magazine won’t reply to further questions about the interview with Cummings on his coronavirus experience. It’s not a minor mistake, it’s not caring, it’s putting people at risk and frankly terrifying that these people are meant to be in charge. We need trust, clarity and to lead by example. 

If there is some sort of sensible reason (though I cannot fathom what) then all ears because it’s not always clear but it’s the fudging, avoidance and excuses I find abhorrent and disgusting. Be truthful and admitting an error of judgement is better, more adult. It may gain a little respect.


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## MollySmith

And... as my husband wryly said... this is only what we know about. What other life-risking ventures have the government taken? I keep going back to this video which is still relevant because the way this virus spreads hasn't changed - and remind myself that we are all capable of spreading this. At the time he went to Durham, he thought he has it, his wife, Hancock and Boris too. He is the jelly baby.


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## Kaily

Imagine if he had been involved in an accident or breakdown, all the innocent people he could of infected. I am fuming that they are using childcare as a reason when they lead such privileged lives and help would of been available to them locally unlike a lot of other people.

There has been so many heartbreaking stories of dire situations people have had to endure all alone because of social distancing and he just does as he likes.

His head should be on a block outside the Tower of London.


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## MollySmith




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## shadowmare

I love the implication that this is what any loving and caring family does... whilst all the other, all the simple mortal families who stayed at home caring for their children must simply not love them enough.


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## Happy Paws2

Kaily said:


> Imagine if he had been involved in an accident or breakdown, all the innocent people he could of infected.


That's what the government said right at the start, *Don't* go out in your cars as you never know if your car is going to breakdown.


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## margy

Iv'e made the journey from London to Northumberland by car and he must have stopped to use a toilet. You couldn't drive all that way and not.


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## Calvine

Dave S said:


> I don't like or trust Cummings


He looks like Mr Weasel.


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## Calvine

margy said:


> Iv'e made the journey from London to Northumberland by car and he must have stopped to use a toilet. You couldn't drive all that way and not.


 And to even contemplate driving that distance, you really can't be feeling like Death warmed up exactly.


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## Boxer123

I’ve just seen an interview with someone standing up for him saying that it wasn’t law to stay home and he did the most sensible thing. So that massive ‘stay home’ phrase was not in fact guidance


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## MollySmith

Seven Tory MPs have called on Cummings to go as they recognise the damage it's doing (see Twitter) but that isn't necessarily the point, it's about risk. If he has been there three times then god knows how many others he has put at risk, who May very well be unwell due to his actions. That's also in addition to being seen out with his wife in Durham.

this from SNP Kirsty Blackman from PA Media


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## MollySmith

Calvine said:


> And to even contemplate driving that distance, you really can't be feeling like Death warmed up exactly.


3 times apparently so said witnesses... Grant Shapps on Andrew Marr denies this but hasn't actually spoken to Cummings...


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## MollySmith

And the Bad and Ugly list who are defending him on Twitter... all, I think, have delivered a briefing. I'm wondering what hold he has over them.


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## Calvine

MollySmith said:


> 3 times apparently so said witnesses... Grant Shapps on Andrew Marr denies this but hasn't actually spoken to Cummings...


Anyway, you have to assume that tomorrow being BH, we can all jump into our cars and go and visit our (presumably very elderly) parents. If BJ's staff can do it, it must be OK. Goodbye lockdown! You could not make this lot up, could you!


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## Boxer123

Also is he that unpopular that if they did both become very unwell they had no friends in London who would help with the little one.


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## MollySmith

Happy Paws2 said:


> That's what the government said right at the start, *Don't* go out in your cars as you never know if your car is going to breakdown.


Slight digression but that's also what the RNLI are saying about going to the coast, they don't want people there as it puts them at risk. The less we go out, the less risk we are, which is why the latest guidance from 10th May about longer trips is ridiculous and thoughtless.


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## MollySmith

Calvine said:


> Anyway, you have to assume that tomorrow being BH, we can all jump into our cars and go and visit our (presumably very elderly) parents. If BJ's staff can do it, it must be OK. Goodbye lockdown! You could not make this lot up, could you!


Even if he does go today (Shapps said on Andrew Marr that he won't which is dangerous talk) it is very hard to see how the cabinet can get back from this. I thought Boris boasting about handshakes was the lowest.


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## lullabydream

Boxer123 said:


> Also is he that unpopular that if they did both become very unwell they had no friends in London who would help with the little one.


I understand some people do have very little people they can call on for help, I really do. However for someone in his position, social economic class I absolutely agree with this statement. I know we shouldn't put things like this down to things like this, socioeconomic but I am looking at said ages of the parents, the work they do. I am sure they have friends that have seen them through times pre parenting per se etc. Been yummy mummies together for want of a better word.
They aren't the type of people who have had children young, who haven't made strong relationships in life to rely on said people. Who are isolated away from family, due to living in social housing who have just been getting on with it, as that what they have done all the time whenever sickness rules a household.

Regardless of how Cummings felt, he should have listened to the advise that only a minority feel really poorly. His wife may have had symptoms but I feel he wouldn't have made this trip prior to Covid-19 and its a fact having or working with young children you do pick up every little bug going. As we all know they mutate terribly. So I am sure they as a family have all been symptomatic of a bug at one time or other before. It's ludacrus if they are going to use childcare that far away at any opportunity. I would only see that as an extreme emergency childcare situation to be honest. Of course my humble opinion.


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## Boxer123

lullabydream said:


> I understand some people do have very little people they can call on for help, I really do. However for someone in his position, social economic class I absolutely agree with this statement. I know we shouldn't put things like this down to things like this, socioeconomic but I am looking at said ages of the parents, the work they do. I am sure they have friends that have seen them through times pre parenting per se etc. Been yummy mummies together for want of a better word.
> They aren't the type of people who have had children young, who haven't made strong relationships in life to rely on said people. Who are isolated away from family, due to living in social housing who have just been getting on with it, as that what they have done all the time whenever sickness rules a household.
> 
> Regardless of how Cummings felt, he should have listened to the advise that only a minority feel really poorly. His wife may have had symptoms but I feel he wouldn't have made this trip prior to Covid-19 and its a fact having or working with young children you do pick up every little bug going. As we all know they mutate terribly. So I am sure they as a family have all been symptomatic of a bug at one time or other before. It's ludacrus if they are going to use childcare that far away at any opportunity. I would only see that as an extreme emergency childcare situation to be honest. Of course my humble opinion.


I've just read his brother in law was in London.


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## Snoringbear

“All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”


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## lullabydream

Snoringbear said:


> "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."


Yep very much Animal Farm isn't it...


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## lullabydream

Boxer123 said:


> I've just read his brother in law was in London.


Mmmm.. It's all rather odd isn't it

I do wonder if with them both working if there will be mention of an au pair/nanny. Am trying to avoid the media but it wouldn't surprise me to be honest.


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## Sandysmum

Boris has to make a stand on this one and either fire Cummings or let him resign and disappear from public life for a while at least. If he doesn't then people will loose confidence in the government . This is not the time for him to play favourites, not in the middle of a pandemic that has killed thousands of people in this country alone. We need strong leadership to get us through this, not one who moves the goalposts to suit his friends.


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## SbanR

jetsmum said:


> Boris has to make a stand on this one and either fire Cummings or let him resign and disappear from public life for a while at least. If he doesn't then people will loose confidence in the government . This is not the time for him to play favourites, not in the middle of a pandemic that has killed thousands of people in this country alone. We need strong leadership to get us through this, not one who moves the goalposts to suit his friends.


I wonder if they'll pull a Peter Mandelson; or was it Alistair Campbell?


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## lullabydream

Let's see what Boris says at 5 pm. Following his meeting with Cummings.


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## 3dogs2cats

I see Johnson is leading the daily briefing today, I think that is the sensible thing to do as the decision to sack Cummings or not rests entirely with him, he should be the one fielding questions from the media. No doubt he will come out with his usual bluster and guff and hope everyone just thinks `ahhhh bless bumbling Boris!`


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## rona

jetsmum said:


> We need strong leadership to get us through this, not one who moves the goalposts to suit his friends.


I thought this was petty at the time, but Nick Grey from Gtech had made a usable ventilator some days before James Dyson, but who got the contract?


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## Siskin




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## Happy Paws2

Deleted,,, what I was going to say about BJ on at 5pm has already be post


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## rona

That's it then. Boris has lost all credibility


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## MollySmith

Winner of Covidiot of the Day.... Boris Johnson.


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## Linda Weasel

I’m a Boris fan but I cannot believe he’s been so stupid as to stick up for his mate and think we’re all gullible enough to believe it!

These are privileged people; the guy has an important and challenging job (don’t know what his wife does) so do they seriously have no emergency childcare plans in place locally?

Gutted for all the people who’ve made sacrifices, not been able to work and earn because they have no childcare, and not seen their families for ages, who now see this arrogant g*t getting away with it.


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## Sandysmum

I seem to remember someone during the early briefings making a point of saying that staying at home was not a request but an instruction, have I remembered wrongly, coz there's a big difference between a request and an instruction?


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## Happy Paws2

Well that was unbelievable, if it had been any of us what would have been said then. 

I can't believe that he couldn't find some in London to help if needed.


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## lullabydream

I thought Boris practically ran off his podium.

I did think common sense would be if they were both unable to cope with looking after the child then surely sister could collect said child.. But then am guessing with no one really knowing, understanding this rule. Even the police stating they don't understand she would have probably been stopped and told foxtrot Oscar back home.

@Linda Weasel as a government aide am sure he's been listening that most people get mild cases. Yes he may have a condition such as asthma, high blood pressure that might have made him more prone to issues, which Boris hinted at. Though biology does not read books, and if they did some shielding at home as best they could this may have helped.
As to childcare, have already stated I would have thought they have a nanny or au pair anyway. Plus close friends too who surely would step in to help too. Plus, do you really think anyone connected with No. 10 would have to try desperately to got food slots or online deliveries. Am sure that must be a perk of the job.


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## MollySmith

Clearly UK Civil Service aren't joining the dwindling Boris and Dom Bromance fan club... this is genuinely on Twitter. Though for how long who knows.

edit- now gone but not before being noted by most media outlets. I hope they don't lose their job for being more honest than Cummings


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## Happy Paws2

MollySmith said:


> Clearly UK Civil Service aren't joining the dwindling Boris and Dom Bromance fan club... this is genuinely on Twitter. Though for how long who knows.
> 
> edit- now gone but not before being noted by most media outlets. I hope they don't lose their job for being more honest than Cummings
> 
> View attachment 440478


It was on the BBC News, they showed it and then said Twitter than closed it down.


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## Bluemoon7

“When poor votes for rich, it confirms in the mind of the rich, that the working class is stupid and must be controlled”.

The Ragged Trousered Philanthropist


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## lullabydream

Am hoping the child involves lifts the lid, by writing all about his adventures of his Durham trip at his education setting.. Children don't often lie.. It really would say a lot about parents to tell a 4 year old to keep quiet. It would be very worrying to do so...


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## kimthecat

Its been said that his child is autistic , I dont care one way or another whether he stays or goes.
If he was ill how did he manage to drive all that way? 
The reporters totally surrounded him when he getting in his car this morning , right up close to him . Talk about hypocrites.


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## kimthecat

The Press


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## MollySmith

Deleted *drinks tea, finds my brain cell*


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## MollySmith

Happy Paws2 said:


> It was on the BBC News, they showed it and then said Twitter than closed it down.


JK Rowling has apparently said she'll pay the salary of the person who wrote it if they get the sack. I'm sure a lot of people will pay them too. I think there's a whole mental health story there too - there must be thousands of staff out there, running these accounts and having to post bilge about what to do and not to do, attempt to give clear information from mixed messages high up the line of command and like anyone of us, just reach the limits of their patience.

(I'm really looking forward to PMQs this week. It's been highly revealing so far, this week may demand popcorn.)


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## rottieboys

MollySmith said:


> 3 times apparently so said witnesses... Grant Shapps on Andrew Marr denies this but hasn't actually spoken to Cummings...





Happy Paws2 said:


> Well that was unbelievable, if it had been any of us what would have been said then.
> 
> I can't believe that he couldn't find some in London to help if needed.


The 4 year old child is autistic, not every family can cope with a child like that. His sister could....Good for him..


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## rottieboys

jetsmum said:


> I seem to remember someone during the early briefings making a point of saying that staying at home was not a request but an instruction, have I remembered wrongly, coz there's a big difference between a request and an instruction?


Did they remind Gordon Ramsey. Did the police talk to him...


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## SbanR

Nicola Sturgeon usually annoys the #### out of me, but this morning I was Applauding her all the way through her interview on BBC news. Very calm, reasoned and careful not to score political points


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## rottieboys

Happy Paws2 said:


> Anyone listening to todays briefing with the Minster trying to justify what Cummings has done.


Well done to Boris, He is not listening to all sheeps which wants him sack...His child needed attention...He did what I would of done.


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## rottieboys

I think people see through what is the press is trying to do . Get rid of Cummings... Stop Brexit..


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## kimthecat

I feel sorry for his neighbours with all the press and by standers shouting abuse , It must be a nightmare for them . i wonder the Police dont move them on or book them for causing a disturbance.

@rottieboys I understand that Boris doesn't want to sack him because he's good at his job ( apart from this incidence) and Boris relies on him .


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## rottieboys

kimthecat said:


> I feel sorry for his neighbours with all the press and by standers shouting abuse , It must be a nightmare for them . i wonder the Police dont move them on or book them for causing a disturbance.


Don n't be silly, They stayed well away.


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## MollySmith

rottieboys said:


> The 4 year old child is autistic, not every family can cope with a child like that. His sister could....Good for him..


No idea why you've quoted me here. Shapps didn't mention this.

As close godmother to an autistic child, somewhat baffled. Not seen her since March and both her parents were unwell and they carried on abiding by rules we were all given at the time. However kudos to you for posting.

I hope Cummings releases a statement with truths, it's the very least we all deserve but especially those who are still trying to find some crumbs of respectability in this.


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## MollySmith

rottieboys said:


> Did they remind Gordon Ramsey. Did the police talk to him...


yes and the coastguard.


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## Dave S

I may have to go an see my brother soon but he is only 125 miles away, not seen him for a few years.
To make sure I am OK I will take my youngest son on the pretence that it is for urgent child care.

(Did I forget to say my youngest son is 31 years old?)

I really do not see how Cummings can stay in his position much longer as there are now so many MP's on all sides of the house against him and it has reduced Boris's credibility as a leader and as someone who is steering the country out of this virus.

Dom - just go and don't come back - give the job to someone who has a bit of common sense.

Edit 'cos I forgot - have a nice bank holiday everyone.


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## lullabydream

Am baffled by the autistic comment.. 

There have been several news articles I have read since lockdown that parents of autistic children, especially those that have challenging behaviour are at their wits end during lockdown. No longer being able to call on family and friends that turn up during lockdown, to help out during a meltdown. Not using emergency services too as additional back up. Trust me they do. 

Autism is a spectrum disorder and so we can't speculate how the child is, how his behaviour is. However uprooting a child with autism to a second home, which is no doubt classed as where we see family, have fun. 4 year old at best see in black and white, add that the ASC, what we're the parents thinking. We are going to Durham but we have to stay in the house. Confused.com for the child. If autism is the excuse then it's a poor one. They would be better off staying at home and if the parents got too ill, then the sister should have collected him. It might not have been too hard a punch in the stomach so to say, than go to house connected with fun activities and seeing family. To be able to stay at an aunts.


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## rona

rottieboys said:


> Well done to Boris, He is not listening to all sheeps which wants him sack...His child needed attention...He did what I would of done.


So I am a sheep now? 

I want Brexit and have been a staunch supporter of Boris, but even I can see that this was just the rich boys snubbing their noses at the plebs. Just disgusting behaviour by both


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## Lurcherlad

Tbh at 4 years old the only person I would have left my child with is my sister, especially if OH and I were to be incapacitated, potentially. My OH's family live much closer to us though.

If my sister had lived 200 miles away I would have driven there to take him.

I wouldn't have been out and about with OH during that period though.


rottieboys said:


> The 4 year old child is autistic, not every family can cope with a child like that. His sister could....Good for him..


Irrespective of the rights and wrongs, who he is, what he said, how he did it, who he works for etc. (I'll let others judge him on all of that ), my child isn't autistic but I would only have left him with my sister when he was 4 and especially if OH and I were to be incapacitated.


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## SbanR

rona said:


> So I am a sheep now?


Baaaaa!

I Did support BJ as 
A. Anyone other than Corbyn
B. He looked the best placed to get Brexit done.

But his current actions shows so clearly he doesn't care about us or the good of the country, only his chums


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## Dave S

Courtesy of Facebook…..


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## rona

Lurcherlad said:


> Tbh at 4 years old the only person I would have left my child with is my sister, especially if OH and I were to be incapacitated, potentially. My OH's family live much closer to us though.
> 
> If my sister had lived 200 miles away I would have driven there to take him.
> 
> I wouldn't have been out and about with OH during that period though.
> 
> Irrespective of the rights and wrongs, who he is, what he said, how he did it, who he works for etc. (I'll let others judge him on all of that ), my child isn't autistic but I would only have left him with my sister when he was 4 and especially if OH and I were to be incapacitated.


Mmm so him supposed too ill to look after his own child and carrying Corvid19, travels nearly 300 miles to leave his child with his sister which apparently he didn't do?? Why did his sister who was clear of corvid, not do the travelling?


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## Lurcherlad

rona said:


> Mmm so him supposed too ill to look after his own child and carrying Corvid19, travels nearly 300 miles to leave his child with his sister which apparently he didn't do?? Why did his sister who was clear of corvid, not do the travelling?


Good question.

We don't know the answer, nor all the details/facts so difficult to judge really.

Was he too ill at that time, or only worried he might be soon as his wife was?

I understand why everyone is up in arms about this and it looks awful and reflects very badly on him/govt etc.

Just saying that nobody gets to decide what I do with my son, so long as I'm acting within the law.

It has been implied a child could have just gone to "someone else" nearby. That's my decision to make, nobody else's.

Of course, if the son was just used as an excuse to go on a Beano .....


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## Calvine

Linda Weasel said:


> we're all gullible enough to believe it!


No, we're not tho . . . everyone I know thinks he should get the boot, only about two members of the Conservatives think he behaved properly. Other people have stepped down for doing the same (or similar), and this guy, unbelievably, is the one who was behind the ''Stay Home, Save Lives, Protect The NHS'' slogan. You could not make it up. Incidentally he is not a member of the Conservative party. Or any other party, allegedly. What really gets me is the ''Sod you lot, I've done nothing wrong'' and not even a hint of an apology or credible explanation. His wife wrote in the Spectator but conveniently omitted to mention that they had been 260 miles away during the lockdown. Another hypocrite it seems.


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## O2.0

Can someone give me the cliff-notes version of what happened in foreigner terms? I'd like to join the outrage  , but I'm not entirely sure I understand what happened!


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## MollySmith

lullabydream said:


> Am baffled by the autistic comment..
> 
> There have been several news articles I have read since lockdown that parents of autistic children, especially those that have challenging behaviour are at their wits end during lockdown. No longer being able to call on family and friends that turn up during lockdown, to help out during a meltdown. Not using emergency services too as additional back up. Trust me they do.
> 
> Autism is a spectrum disorder and so we can't speculate how the child is, how his behaviour is. However uprooting a child with autism to a second home, which is no doubt classed as where we see family, have fun. 4 year old at best see in black and white, add that the ASC, what we're the parents thinking. We are going to Durham but we have to stay in the house. Confused.com for the child. If autism is the excuse then it's a poor one. They would be better off staying at home and if the parents got too ill, then the sister should have collected him. It might not have been too hard a punch in the stomach so to say, than go to house connected with fun activities and seeing family. To be able to stay at an aunts.


Agree. It's also a rumour. If it were true then I'm surprised it wasn't mentioned earlier and that it was made clear to all parents and guardians at the time the instruction was given by Boris Johnson so everyone was treated equally, not Cummings.

My goddaughter would probably been hugely traumatised by leaving the house. That may not be true of all autistic children, but nevertheless it's another excuse that doesn't explain the reason for a supposedly sick man driving allegedly 3 times. It's hugely insulting to anyone caring for anyone with a hidden disability or who has one.


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## Calvine

Just read DC is making a statement this afternoon . . . in Japan it would be taken for granted that he would resign out of decency and a sense of ''honour''. Let's see.


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## Calvine

Whose child is autistic?


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## MollySmith

O2.0 said:


> Can someone give me the cliff-notes version of what happened in foreigner terms? I'd like to join the outrage  , but I'm not entirely sure I understand what happened!


The Guardian first got wind of this...
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ngs-timeline-what-we-know-about-his-movements

and for balance
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-a-timeline-of-dominic-cummings-movements-11993086


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## MollySmith

Calvine said:


> Whose child is autistic?


Cummings, allegedly. It's not confirmed.


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## Calvine

MollySmith said:


> Cummings, allegedly. It's not confirmed.


Thank you @MollySmith: I've read several times that Cummings jr. is eight years old, not four, that's why I asked.


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## lullabydream

MollySmith said:


> Agree. It's also a rumour. If it were true then I'm surprised it wasn't mentioned earlier and that it was made clear to all parents and guardians at the time the instruction was given by Boris Johnson so everyone was treated equally, not Cummings.
> 
> My goddaughter would probably been hugely traumatised by leaving the house. That may not be true of all autistic children, but nevertheless it's another excuse that doesn't explain the reason for a supposedly sick man driving allegedly 3 times. It's hugely insulting to anyone caring for anyone with a hidden disability or who has one.


They have added to the guidance vulnerable people, such as those with autism under guidance and unpaid carers bit, I think to cover help but it's adult based. It seems a bit wishy washy.. Well maybe not. I got bored trying to find what it actually was of relevance to, to be honest.. Was looking for myself as a person waiting to cross i's and t's to be support my friends daughter with autism and challenging behaviour, a lot anxiety based. Who is really struggling currently. Her social worker really wishes I could just go in and support her as I was. However, due to lockdown everything is taking longer.
I have shared many articles about how people are in the same boat with my friend, and was hoping that some came up in the briefing for someone to respond.

Let's hope whether it's true or not, someone asks about those children with additional needs or adults who parents maybe struggling with that they can get support from those friends, family if needed and are struggling in lockdown if no one is isolating in the households.


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## kimthecat

lullabydream said:


> Autism is a spectrum disorder and so we can't speculate how the child is, how his behaviour is. However uprooting a child with autism to a second home, which is no doubt classed as where we see family, have fun. 4 year old at best see in black and white, add that the ASC, what we're the parents thinking. We are going to Durham but we have to stay in the house. Confused.com for the child. If autism is the excuse then it's a poor one. They would be better off staying at home and if the parents got too ill, then the sister should have collected him. It might not have been too hard a punch in the stomach so to say, than go to house connected with fun activities and seeing family. To be able to stay at an aunts.


 Has his sister said anything ? Maybe she wasn't able to do it.


----------



## MollySmith

Calvine said:


> Just read DC is making a statement this afternoon . . . in Japan it would be taken for granted that he would resign out of decency and a sense of ''honour''. Let's see.


I can't help but think this is too late. He's had time to go through all the media, public and back bench MP comments to create a 'defence'. All I can say is, it has better be a good one.

*proud to be a sheep of principles*


----------



## lullabydream

O2.0 said:


> Can someone give me the cliff-notes version of what happened in foreigner terms? I'd like to join the outrage  , but I'm not entirely sure I understand what happened!


We were all told in lockdown

If you or a member of a family become ill. To stay at home. Everyone in that household self isolate together, for a minimum of 14 days. 
We didn't see, hear exclusions for children, we all saw it as suck it up as you do as parents when cold, flu type bugs arise. You all pretty much get it, and do the best you can. Plus told most will get mild symptoms.. 80% figure. So cross your fingers.

Oh and told only essential driving.

Cummings, the number 1 government aide to Boris. Wife had symptoms, so drove miles and miles to his second home to isolate. To be near family.. Just in case they both got ill. So they had childcare. Most likely stopping on the way with a 4 year old needing toileting facilities, petrol maybe.

Cummings also managed to have a day out.

So whilst many people have struggled being ill, with said virus, keeping everyone isolated etc, no one was aware of this common sense rule. Am sure most would seek help from family if 2 adults were struggling at the same time, but not the case.


----------



## rona

Ok, beside anything else, this man is 48, his parents, who he was also putting at risk must be very near 70, the most vulnerable age group


----------



## SbanR

Calvine said:


> Just read DC is making a statement this afternoon . . . in Japan it would be taken for granted that he would resign out of decency and a sense of ''honour''. Let's see.


Bet you anything you like he won't resign, only repeat same old, same old.



lullabydream said:


> They have added to the guidance vulnerable people, such as those with autism under guidance and unpaid carers bit, I think to cover help but it's adult based. It seems a bit wishy washy.. Well maybe not. I got bored trying to find what it actually was of relevance to, to be honest.. Was looking for myself as a person waiting to cross i's and t's to be support my friends daughter with autism and challenging behaviour, a lot anxiety based. Who is really struggling currently. Her social worker really wishes I could just go in and support her as I was. However, due to lockdown everything is taking longer.
> I have shared many articles about how people are in the same boat with my friend, and was hoping that some came up in the briefing for someone to respond.
> 
> Let's hope whether it's true or not, someone asks about those children with additional needs or adults who parents maybe struggling with that they can get support from those friends, family if needed and are struggling in lockdown if no one is isolating in the households.


Bring up the autism to justify your action


----------



## O2.0

lullabydream said:


> We were all told in lockdown
> 
> If you or a member of a family become ill. To stay at home. Everyone in that household self isolate together, for a minimum of 14 days.
> We didn't see, hear exclusions for children, we all saw it as suck it up as you do as parents when cold, flu type bugs arise. You all pretty much get it, and do the best you can. Plus told most will get mild symptoms.. 80% figure. So cross your fingers.
> 
> Oh and told only essential driving.
> 
> Cummings, the number 1 government aide to Boris. Wife had symptoms, so drove miles and miles to his second home to isolate. To be near family.. Just in case they both got ill. So they had childcare. Most likely stopping on the way with a 4 year old needing toileting facilities, petrol maybe.
> 
> Cummings also managed to have a day out.
> 
> So whilst many people have struggled being ill, with said virus, keeping everyone isolated etc, no one was aware of this common sense rule. Am sure most would seek help from family if 2 adults were struggling at the same time, but not the case.


I can almost forgive driving to a more comfortable home to self-isolate, but the additional outings while experiencing symptoms can't be anything other than extreme selfishness and total lack of concern for anyone else. Rather worrying traits in someone in charge of government. Not unusual for someone in government, mind, but worrying nonetheless.



MollySmith said:


> The Guardian first got wind of this...
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ngs-timeline-what-we-know-about-his-movements
> 
> and for balance
> https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-a-timeline-of-dominic-cummings-movements-11993086


TLDR  I wanted to experience the outrage without having to do the work to be fully informed! 
Actually I don't really care that much, just saw that this thread is still going and was wondering what the hoopla was all about.

Here in the US, people are happily going to work with symptoms and spreading it around. 
My friend actually tested positive for Covid-19 after her *third* doctor's visit! So she was bee-bopping around with symptoms, being told she didn't have it. She still can't figure out who she got it from as she is asthmatic and has been isolating pretty stringently, going to the store only rarely (once every 2 or 3 weeks) and she works from home.


----------



## SbanR

rona said:


> Ok, beside anything else, this man is 48, his parents, who he was also putting at risk must be very near 70, the most vulnerable age group


Hope this point is brought up.
Also pin him down as to whether he stopped en route, endangering others or drove almost 300 miles without a break, getting tired and risking an accident


----------



## rona

So his parents are defending him saying that they were also a grieving family............Hmm. How many others are grieving because of their lack of care.
My OH was grieving, his mother and sister have been close to breakdowns, in fact his mother may still. They only live 30 miles away but he hasn't even thought of being there until this week. He may go and meet his mother in the park near her home


----------



## lullabydream

O2.0 said:


> I can almost forgive driving to a more comfortable home to self-isolate, but the additional outings while experiencing symptoms can't be anything other than extreme selfishness and total lack of concern for anyone else. Rather worrying traits in someone in charge of government. Not unusual for someone in government, mind, but worrying nonetheless.
> 
> TLDR  I wanted to experience the outrage without having to do the work to be fully informed!
> Actually I don't really care that much, just saw that this thread is still going and was wondering what the hoopla was all about.
> 
> Here in the US, people are happily going to work with symptoms and spreading it around.
> My friend actually tested positive for Covid-19 after her *third* doctor's visit! So she was bee-bopping around with symptoms, being told she didn't have it. She still can't figure out who she got it from as she is asthmatic and has been isolating pretty stringently, going to the store only rarely (once every 2 or 3 weeks) and she works from home.


I think the rules on driving was to try and contain the virus to some degree too. Not just to help the NHS. London was the epicentre, at the time and to drive over 200 miles is a big difference. London has large hospitals and several; Durham was probably not so prepared at the time for Covid-19. I know my local hospitals were still preparing having to quadruple ICU care beds. So that's another factor.

I truly get, wanting a family member who you trust care for a child I do. However it seemed to be jumping the gun. Make provisions of course, by all means do. I think this would be common sense.

I had said to my friend who has 2 autistic children, another whose a single parent with 3 children 2 again autistic if the worse was to happen and I am well I will come and care for the children. I was thinking the children's welfare was paramount over lockdown rules. However this *touchwood* hasn't happened.

I will say, my single parent friend couldn't attend her nan's funeral because of lockdown rules on travel. It is not seen as essential and this was told by the funeral directors and as they had been advised only family members who live close by could attend. So this gives another slant on it too!


----------



## Arny

O2.0 said:


> I can almost forgive driving to a more comfortable home to self-isolate


Not when people were specifically told do not go to your holiday home.


----------



## shadowmare

rottieboys said:


> The 4 year old child is autistic, not every family can cope with a child like that. His sister could....Good for him..


And yet, thousands of families across UK who have one or even more autistic children, were expected to cope under the "stay at home" rules. Some of these families relied on nurseries and primary schools as a respite for parents during the day.


----------



## Kaily

Must be nice to be as indispensable as Mr Cummings allowing you to do as you like. I have lost all confidence in all of them now. He was morally wrong.

I for one will not stay alert a moment longer... Actually I will, I will be alert to all the lies we are being told.


----------



## kimthecat

He's making a statement at 4 pm. 
I dont see how he can stay on..

One point is if he was seen at the castle , are there any photos of him there. ?


----------



## Kaily

kimthecat said:


> He's making a statement at 4 pm.
> I dont see how he can stay on..
> 
> One point is if he was seen at the castle , are there any photos of him there. ?


Unfortunately not.

I am warming up my tv set now.


----------



## rona

Kaily said:


> Must be nice to be as indispensable as Mr Cummings allowing you to do as you like. I have lost all confidence in all of them now. He was morally wrong.
> 
> I for one will not stay alert a moment longer... Actually I will, I will be alert to all the lies we are being told.


Sorry, but just because some arrogant rich boy hasn't played ball and spat in the face of over 
36000 grieving families and NHS staff, doesn't mean you have to follow suit


----------



## kimthecat

Kaily said:


> Unfortunately not.
> 
> I am warming up my tv set now.


 I have no popcorn or ice cream ,damn it !


----------



## lullabydream

kimthecat said:


> He's making a statement at 4 pm.
> I dont see how he can stay on..
> 
> One point is if he was seen at the castle , are there any photos of him there. ?


I don't know I hope so.. Boris was rather fluffy on the details of what he did in Durham except he did isolate.

I don't know how a meeting takes 'hours' to establish facts.

I got from the briefing it was Cummings himself who had medical issues, which Boris said were personal.

I am hoping Boris holds the briefing again, as he really needs to and not let another person take the flack after Cummings statement today.

The media has sourced families who have had Covid-19 saying they were in the same position, no family near by and just had to cope. I bet they could have just randomly phoned any family and got the same story to be honest. Yes many adults still live at home, but there emphasis with schools closing that it would be hard on parents, congratulations for staying in, working from home, home schooling and stopping the NHS getting overwhelmed. Not all shops, and other workplaces which were allowed to stay open could, not just due to social distancing measures but also to some of the initial confusion over who could. Not all were essential workers per se as defined as in manufacturing area. These didn't close originally. Many did due to lack of work force due to school closures being citied as one reason in my area.


----------



## rona

lullabydream said:


> Cummings himself who had medical issues


I have an idea how he's going to wriggle out of this, we'll see


----------



## Dave S

I think this is such a shame.
Back at the election Boris, on behalf of the Conservative party won an overwhelming victory partly due to the hatred of Corbyn and labours policies.

I would still support the conservative party but still feel the same about Boris as I did way back then - he was the acceptable alternative to Corbyn, he is a blundering fool and insincere in his actions and I do not trust him. I hope in years to come that he is replaced by someone who is a bit more honest in his approach and not led by the "old boys network".

BJ should relieve Cummings of his duties and apologise sincerely to the country for his actions, Cummings should never be back in a position of trust.
I will still maintain whatever lock down rules that apply as I do not want the virus.


----------



## rona

He's so arrogant he can't even turn up on time


----------



## kimthecat

Come on Dominic , hurry up. This is like Columbo or Agatha Christie, The Mysterious case of Dominic Cummings.


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> He's so arrogant he can't even turn up on time


Still going over his story I expect!


----------



## Kaily

I expect he is singing _ Shall I stay or shall I go._


----------



## tyg'smum

I keep trying to persuade myself that this is not, in fact, an episode of "In The Thick Of It".


----------



## rona

They are now taking the piss out of the press.
Us too.................!!

I'm so angry about this. I don't usually get wound up about what someone else does. I've stood by and watched my friend get sicker and sicker and struggle just to live, without being able to go in and help and this overblown ego went and had a holiday with his family, and now, even hads't the decency to fess up on time :Rage :Rage

Fuming...........I'm fuming


----------



## kimthecat

Kaily said:


> I expect he is singing _ Shall I stay or shall I go._


:Hilarious Accordng to Twitter he is stuck in traffic on the A1 !


----------



## DanWalkersmum

half an hour later and...still waiting....


----------



## Kaily

Maybe he is constipated. :Yuck


----------



## tyg'smum

DanWalkersmum said:


> half an hour later and...still waiting....


Has anyone looked in Boris's fridge?


----------



## tyg'smum

I don't believe a word of it.


----------



## Kaily

What a beautiful garden.


----------



## rona

So, he did it all....................resign


----------



## kimthecat

I lost interest , like when your neighbour tells you in detail about her holiday and you have to look at endless photos and you try not to yawn. .


----------



## rona

He's still blaming the media 

Not his fault ..................


----------



## Kaily

I think saying they drove 30 miles to see if he was safe to drive is somewhat dangerous!


----------



## MollySmith

Well that was a load of codswallop. I learned nothing knew apart from that if Johnson can't operate without Cummings and refuses to sack him then it's fair to ask more about this man, his relationship to the Cabinet and why Johnson is incapable of running the country without him.

FFS, he drove to see if his eyesight was affected, his wife didn't have the symptoms.... and this bit..._"He also felt that it was highly likely he had contracted the disease having been in close contact with the prime minister and others who developed symptoms."_ surely is a result of all the mistakes in the weeks before - that boast about shaking the hands of patients by Boris must've had something to do with Cummings. Had they all realised what the majority of us knew at the time from Italy and WHO (even the EFL knew!) that it was passed by contact, then this may have been avoided.


----------



## Dave S

His insincerity knows no depths!


----------



## kimthecat

He's not even gong to apologise. !


----------



## MollySmith

rona said:


> They are now taking the piss out of the press.
> Us too.................!!
> 
> I'm so angry about this. I don't usually get wound up about what someone else does. I've stood by and watched my friend get sicker and sicker and struggle just to live, without being able to go in and help and this overblown ego went and had a holiday with his family, and now, even hads't the decency to fess up on time :Rage :Rage
> 
> Fuming...........I'm fuming


Yes, I can imagine you are. You've been so patient and reminded us to see the good in people including Johnson and been so careful with the rules too. Me, I'm bound to be mad (!) but it shouldn't be so that you're let down.


----------



## tyg'smum

Oh, let's rewrite the guidance1


----------



## MollySmith

And parents are meant to trust him and Boris in 7 days time when schools are meant to open.


----------



## MollySmith

The awful thing is that I agree with the Daily Mail and Piers Morgan. Yikes!


----------



## tyg'smum

MollySmith said:


> And parents are meant to trust him and Boris in 7 days time when schools are meant to open.


I wonder if Cumming's son will be returning...


----------



## rona

Doesn't his wife drive?


----------



## tyg'smum

Does Mrs Cummings not drive?


----------



## MollySmith

O2.0 said:


> I can almost forgive driving to a more comfortable home to self-isolate, but the additional outings while experiencing symptoms can't be anything other than extreme selfishness and total lack of concern for anyone else. Rather worrying traits in someone in charge of government. Not unusual for someone in government, mind, but worrying nonetheless.
> 
> TLDR  I wanted to experience the outrage without having to do the work to be fully informed!
> Actually I don't really care that much, just saw that this thread is still going and was wondering what the hoopla was all about.
> 
> Here in the US, people are happily going to work with symptoms and spreading it around.
> My friend actually tested positive for Covid-19 after her *third* doctor's visit! So she was bee-bopping around with symptoms, being told she didn't have it. She still can't figure out who she got it from as she is asthmatic and has been isolating pretty stringently, going to the store only rarely (once every 2 or 3 weeks) and she works from home.


 TBF it can be summarised as rich privileged puppeteer drives to posh house because he's scared of Twitter, more scared of this than causing a car accident because he may not be able to see to drive. Gets caught out, denies all knowledge for several weeks and is now squirming after persuading more rich privileged puppets that it was a good thing he broke the rules. It's probably some sort of test of our public tolerance or a deal to take the heat of Trump.

I hope your friend is okay. It's scary how it can pass so easily.


----------



## Boxer123

It’s so awkward I can only watch with one eye open.


----------



## Charity

I think this is absolutely disgusting. I hate the journalists, its just a witch hunt. The man made mistakes but he can't change things and I don't see why he has to keep explaining himself to those idiots or us even. We had an hour of this yesterday and now we're getting it again. There are a lot more important things to be talking about.


----------



## kimthecat

tyg'smum said:


> Has anyone looked in Boris's fridge?


They wouldnt both fit in there! 

@Charity he could at least say sorry for breaking the rules.


----------



## MollySmith

Charity said:


> I think this is absolutely disgusting. I hate the journalists, its just a witch hunt. The man made mistakes but he can't change things and I don't see why he has to keep explaining himself to those idiots or us even. We had an hour of this yesterday and now we're getting it again. There are a lot more important things to be talking about.


You don't think it's important that the man advising the cabinet about policies during a pandemic in which 55,000 people (three of whom are friends of mine) have died has dodged media questions since April about a trip that breached the rules we were _all_ given, and stopped for petrol whilst displaying the symptoms of the deadly disease and almost certainly risked passing it on (given that we all have the potential to do this as we don't even know if we're carrying the disease). I guess we could talk about how a hospital in Somerset has had to close to new admissions instead.

I suspect many of us might be a lot more patient if he had the balls to apologise.


----------



## rona

https://www.gov.uk/driving-eyesight-rules
Testing his eyes for an hour
With his child in the car too


----------



## MollySmith

Cummings appears to be saying... 

Returning to work initially despite his wife displaying Covid symptoms and now says his wife was not exhibiting Covid-19 symptoms when they left London, although she was ill.
Driving to Durham despite stay at home orders 
Visiting Barnard Castle, and stopping to play in a wood despite stay at home orders 
Yet he still claims he didn't break any rules
That he went to Durham purely as a precaution 
That he and his wife both travelled to hospital despite both having Covid symptoms 
That he drove back 250 miles despite physical impairments
He drove there without filling up the tank but it he might have on the way back 
He didn't ask for help in London saying it was a deadly disease 
He hasn't offered to resign and doesn't think he should
He thought speaking out earlier would 'leads [sic] to more confusion'


----------



## tyg'smum

The only conversation he had with his parents/sister were shouted from a safe distance.

Do these people not possess mobile phones?

He needed to return to London in order to speak to Doris - sorry, Boris - and other people.

And to think that the rest of us are supposed to use Zoom, or whatever.


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> https://www.gov.uk/driving-eyesight-rules
> Testing his eyes for an hour
> With his child in the car too


I think he should take a lie detector test.


----------



## lullabydream

My favourite lines were.. 
I discussed this with Boris later when we were both ill in bed but neither us could really remember.. I bet Boris made him say that.. But it sounded hilarious..

You make it sound like a holiday home, its just concrete buildings... Must have forgotten those private woods he walked in!

I actually don't think his initial concern was childcare as his first thought was to say 'His home was under attack, and he even got death threats. He deemed it not safe to isolate there.. But sleeps there every night, and was happy to leave the house empty to self isolate. Hmmmm very odd.

He still doesn't get it. 

If he can say that he's happy to leave his child with nieces as low risk category as a get out clause, then he should know the majority of people get mild symptoms if any. So why worry so much. He should know this!


----------



## Boxer123




----------



## Happy Paws2

rottieboys said:


> The 4 year old child is autistic, not every family can cope with a child like that. His sister could....Good for him..


He talked about having a young child never mentioned he was autistic this afternoon.

It's a pity Parliament is on holiday this week so we haven't got a PM question time.

Yesterday the PM said he had told him he hadn't been to this Abbey which is 30 miles away, now he says they did go.

Now he says he came back to London so they can get child care.

He still hasn't even said sorry, the arrogant PR*T.


----------



## lullabydream

Happy Paws2 said:


> He talked about having a young child never mentioned he was autistic this afternoon.
> 
> It's a pity Parliament is on holiday this week so we haven't got a PM question time.
> 
> Yesterday the PM said he had told him he hadn't been to this Abbey which is 30 miles away, now he says they did go.
> 
> Now he says he came back to London so they can get child care.
> 
> He still hasn't even said sorry, the arrogant PR*T.


There was a lot of emphasis on going back to work and seeking medical advise on that too.

It felt like it's the usual thing say it enough times and it will be all people hear. So we hear the words and think oh medical advise, work he never did anything wrong.


----------



## catz4m8z

Happy Paws2 said:


> He still hasn't even said sorry, the arrogant PR*T.


I think a heartfelt sorry would go a long way in this situation. Other families have also probably been put in difficult situations with illness and childcare, etc so are going to understand somewhat....its the lack of apologies or acknowledgement that is infuriating.
I mean its not like it would be offering an admission of guilt when he clearly was guilty! IMO an honest apology and a pledge for some volunteer work or a meaty donation to a covid charity/NHS would get him off the hook!


----------



## Charity

kimthecat said:


> @Charity he could at least say sorry for breaking the rules.


According to the Government's 50 page guidance, his get out clause was the fact under the section relating to children, it says

_If you are living with children, keep following this advice to the best of your ability. However, we are aware that not all these measures are possible.
_
So, he thinks that's what he did. Plus, as Boris knew about it apparently a week after he did it and backed him publicly yesterday, he isn't going to apologise is he?
_


MollySmith said:



You don't think it's important that the man advising the cabinet about policies during a pandemic in which 55,000 people (three of whom are friends of mine) have died has dodged media questions since April about a trip that breached the rules we were all given, and stopped for petrol whilst displaying the symptoms of the deadly disease and almost certainly risked passing it on (given that we all have the potential to do this as we don't even know if we're carrying the disease). I guess we could talk about how a hospital in Somerset has had to close to new admissions instead.

I suspect many of us might be a lot more patient if he had the balls to apologise.

Click to expand...

_
I'm not defending him, I just didn't want to watch a witch hunt by people who call themselves journalists but couldn't actually ask a sensible question if they tried, I would rather have listened to the normal daily briefing on much more important matters like how many people have suffered and died today sadly. It's just time this was put to bed, Do you think he's the only one who's done this? I doubt it. As for the situation re the Somerset hospital, that's due to some of the population who are selfish enough to think they can now go where they like and do what they like - second wave here we come.


----------



## Happy Paws2

God forbid that we get another breakout of this virus and they need another lockdown and told to stop at home, will people will take any notice.


----------



## lullabydream

@Charity there is still a daily briefing to come lead by Boris today.

Cummings statement is nothing to do what the government..apparently but am sure Boris or another aide has advised this.

I wish people had time to look into every clause and try and read every part of the document. 
My first thought with reading that would not be about childcare though, it would be more about exercise getting children out from the confines of their home. Keeping social distancing still. Which is what agencies working with children and families have been advising from the beginning of lockdown.

Harries had stated a different clause, classing the child as vulnerable in that situation. So there must be another clause too.

So they can't even extrapolate the same information from the source to clarify.


----------



## rona

Charity said:


> Do you think he's the only one who's done this?


No, but they aren't in his position within the government


----------



## Kaily

Does anyone know when the daily briefing will be on?


----------



## mrs phas

Charity said:


> As for the situation re the Somerset hospital, *that's due to some of the population who are selfish enough to think they can now go where they like and do what they like* - second wave here we come.


Do you not think that includes Dominic Cummings then?
I know county Durham isnt near somerset
but it shows the same level of selfishness
in fact even more, as the death toll and infection rate , then, was at its highest
unike now


----------



## mrs phas

Kaily said:


> Does anyone know when the daily briefing will be on?


7pm apparently


----------



## Kaily

Thanks


----------



## Elles

I just listened to Cummings on the radio. :Jawdrop

So, he drove to the castle because his eyesight had been going, he didn’t feel very well and he’d been getting dizzy. A good plan then. Drive for an hour and if you don’t pass out, or crash the car, you know you’re fit to drive and can go further next time.

He had to drive up from London so his 22 year old could look after his 4 year old if he and/or his wife couldn’t. Can afford a second or third home, but not a nanny eh? What if you’d had an accident while you were gallivanting all over the country?

I’ve never heard such a load of bullocks in all my life. He snuck out at midnight to drive to his other home and had a day out at a local castle/beauty spot, because he thought he wouldn’t get caught. Needs sacking imo.


----------



## MollySmith

lullabydream said:


> My favourite lines were..
> I discussed this with Boris later when we were both ill in bed but neither us could really remember.. I bet Boris made him say that.. But it sounded hilarious..


My mind went to Whips... sorry...


----------



## mrs phas

MollySmith said:


> My mind went to Whips... sorry...


wears a good emoji when one needs one :Shamefullyembarrased


----------



## Happy Paws2

Kaily said:


> Does anyone know when the daily briefing will be on?


I think 7pm


----------



## MollySmith

Charity said:


> I'm not defending him, I just didn't want to watch a witch hunt by people who call themselves journalists but couldn't actually ask a sensible question if they tried, I would rather have listened to the normal daily briefing on much more important matters like how many people have suffered and died today sadly. It's just time this was put to bed, Do you think he's the only one who's done this? I doubt it. As for the situation re the Somerset hospital, that's due to some of the population who are selfish enough to think they can now go where they like and do what they like - second wave here we come.


_Do you think he's the only one who's done this? _No I don't, given that the NHS staff at St Thomas' have been banned from talking to the media since early Feb (this is the hospital that serves Westminster) I think more will be uncovered in years to come. Yet others in senior positions who were in breach of guidelines have resigned, why is Cummings exempt? That's what the press are asking.

He's a senior advisor. We do have to know and he has to be accountable, as does Johnson, to rebuild trust. And if some of the population are selfish.... well, Cummings has pretty much given those selfish people the right to do whatever all over again with no accountability. If he is held to account - and this witch hunt is not just the media, it's cross party including back benchers and senior Tories, and the public. It also affects you, me, everyone here and across the world because if we aren't held to account for our actions, then there's going to be third, fourth, fifth waves.


----------



## MollySmith

mrs phas said:


> wears a good emoji when one needs one :Shamefullyembarrased


:Mooning :Hungry :Cigar


----------



## Dave S

On the subject of Mrs Cummings, presumably she can drive but her Wikipedia entry makes interesting reading;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Wakefield_(journalist)

Especially her early involvement with BJ at the Spectator.

More of the "Old boys network"


----------



## Calvine

O2.0 said:


> I can almost forgive driving to a more comfortable home to self-isolate, but the additional outings while experiencing symptoms can't be anything other than extreme selfishness and total lack of concern for anyone else. Rather worrying traits in someone in charge of government. Not unusual for someone in government, mind, but worrying nonetheless.
> 
> TLDR  I wanted to experience the outrage without having to do the work to be fully informed!
> Actually I don't really care that much, just saw that this thread is still going and was wondering what the hoopla was all about.
> 
> Here in the US, people are happily going to work with symptoms and spreading it around.
> My friend actually tested positive for Covid-19 after her *third* doctor's visit! So she was bee-bopping around with symptoms, being told she didn't have it. She still can't figure out who she got it from as she is asthmatic and has been isolating pretty stringently, going to the store only rarely (once every 2 or 3 weeks) and she works from home.


Different places are treating it so differently. My friend in the Canaries sent me this, taken today. Still massive restrictions (not even a footprint on that beach . . . Southend was packed at the weekend).


----------



## Calvine

lullabydream said:


> We were all told in lockdown
> 
> If you or a member of a family become ill. To stay at home. Everyone in that household self isolate together, for a minimum of 14 days.
> We didn't see, hear exclusions for children, we all saw it as suck it up as you do as parents when cold, flu type bugs arise. You all pretty much get it, and do the best you can. Plus told most will get mild symptoms.. 80% figure. So cross your fingers.
> 
> Oh and told only essential driving.
> 
> Cummings, the number 1 government aide to Boris. Wife had symptoms, so drove miles and miles to his second home to isolate. To be near family.. Just in case they both got ill. So they had childcare. Most likely stopping on the way with a 4 year old needing toileting facilities, petrol maybe.
> 
> Cummings also managed to have a day out.
> 
> So whilst many people have struggled being ill, with said virus, keeping everyone isolated etc, no one was aware of this common sense rule. Am sure most would seek help from family if 2 adults were struggling at the same time, but not the case.


As you say, not the case. No right--minded person would contemplate a 260 mile drive with ordinary 'flu', far too debilitating, let alone something like Covid, they would not feel up to it. It is clear that the possibility of staying in the country during the good weather was an attraction. Like celebs with their second homes, but THEY are not supposed to be leading by example, not the ones behind the 'stay home, save lives' slogan as DC is.


----------



## O2.0

Calvine said:


> Different places are treating it so differently. My friend in the Canaries sent me this, taken today. Still massive restrictions (not even a footprint on that beach . . . Southend was packed at the weekend).


Yeah, it's memorial day weekend here, people are crowding beaches and outdoor areas, pool parties etc. Most restrictions have been lifted.

We're in a state that hasn't really been hit much, a bunch of us who have been volunteering together since March 17th gave blood about a week ago, and in the process got tested for antibodies. Everyone negative, so not even exposed. Meanwhile my friend who lives about an hour away in a more populated/urban part of the state has been isolating pretty carefully and got the virus.

It's so hard to know how to proceed. Like I say, most restrictions here lifted. I let one teen go to her friend's pool, just the two of them. The other is going to a friend's lake house, just 4 of them. It's a hard "no" to any of these big gatherings in popular places, but I'm hoping their less exposed outings will be okay. 
But not gonna lie, a part of me kind of wants to get exposed and be done with it. Obviously I know it's not that simple but I can definitely empathize with those who just want to get back to 'normal' whatever that means these days.


----------



## mrs phas

some of the reviews are hilarious

https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attra...tle-Barnard_Castle_County_Durham_England.html


----------



## Lurcherlad

Crying with laughter! 

the one from Dommo C was hysterical!


----------



## Calvine

Lurcherlad said:


> Crying with laughter!
> 
> the one from Dommo C was hysterical!


*Message from Tripadvisor:* Due to a recent event that has attracted media attention and has caused an influx of review submissions that do not describe a first-hand experience, we have temporarily suspended publishing new reviews for this listing. If you've had a firsthand experience at this property, please check back soon - we're looking forward to receiving your review!

Was looking forward to reading them, but just getting this and then a few older reviews.


----------



## mrs phas

Calvine said:


> *Message from Tripadvisor:* Due to a recent event that has attracted media attention and has caused an influx of review submissions that do not describe a first-hand experience, we have temporarily suspended publishing new reviews for this listing. If you've had a firsthand experience at this property, please check back soon - we're looking forward to receiving your review!
> 
> Was looking forward to reading them, but just getting this and then a few older reviews.


Party poopers!


----------



## MilleD

Charity said:


> According to the Government's 50 page guidance, his get out clause was the fact under the section relating to children, it says
> 
> _If you are living with children, keep following this advice to the best of your ability. However, we are aware that not all these measures are possible.
> _
> So, he thinks that's what he did. Plus, as Boris knew about it apparently a week after he did it and backed him publicly yesterday, he isn't going to apologise is he?
> _
> _


Is this the latest 50 page guidance? Didn't that come out after he had this jolly?


----------



## Charity

MilleD said:


> Is this the latest 50 page guidance? Didn't that come out after he had this jolly?


He probably wrote it


----------



## SbanR

Calvine said:


> *Message from Tripadvisor:* Due to a recent event that has attracted media attention and has caused an influx of review submissions that do not describe a first-hand experience, we have temporarily suspended publishing new reviews for this listing. If you've had a firsthand experience at this property, please check back soon - we're looking forward to receiving your review!
> 
> Was looking forward to reading them, but just getting this and then a few older reviews.


You missed some good reviews!


----------



## Calvine

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/news...-dominic-cummings/ar-BB14AP5h?ocid=spartandhp

I can hardly believe this . . . bishops being threatened because they have aired their opinion?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/news...-dominic-cummings/ar-BB14AP5h?ocid=spartandhp
> 
> I can hardly believe this . . . bishops being threatened because they have aired their opinion?


You can't believe how evil some people are, everyone is entitled to have an opinion who ever they are.


----------



## SbanR

Junior minister Douglas Ross has resigned.


----------



## Happy Paws2

SbanR said:


> Junior minister Douglas Ross has resigned.


I don't think he'll be the only one.


----------



## Happy Paws2

It's getting embarrassing watching minsters squirming trying to sound as if they support him.


----------



## Snoringbear

Watched a load of Cummings supporter interviewees on the news today. Feels like I’m watching a car crash every time. Maybe even one where the driver concerned has been testing their questionable eyesight out for thirty miles while driving. I can’t see this going away anytime soon.


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws2 said:


> I don't think he'll be the only one.


I thought it was just a matter of time before the exodus started.


----------



## Lurcherlad

I’m struggling to see how it would ever be considered a good idea to drive a car 60 miles with your family on board to test your eyesight! 

Seems a lot of people agree with Cummings though :Nailbiting


----------



## Calvine

Charity said:


> He probably wrote it


He's behind much of what is written. . . the stay home slogan was his 'brainchild' and the Brexit bus with the £350 million on the side. All him. He's full of it.


----------



## SbanR

I can't help but suspect that was a useful "get-out clause" for those in the know


----------



## lullabydream

Calvine said:


> He's behind much of what is written. . . the stay home slogan was his 'brainchild' and the Brexit bus with the £350 million on the side. All him. He's full of it.


That Brexit bus, that actually took the general population to be complete idiots?!? If they did the maths it's barely a few pounds per person for the NHS....

Again he's taking the public for idiots.. Driving up north saying its not a place of beauty being in the countryside with its own private woodland

Driving to test his eyesight for 30 minutes, to an area of again sounds very much a nice spot to park up and walk. Where the advice was only essential driving. People were staying as local as possible. Jesus many weren't moving cars at all. If his eyes were bad, and you were weak you really don't think I will test drive. Surely any medical advice is always based on, it always depends how you feel. As a rule routine operations give fit notes for 2 weeks on release from hospital. However if you really don't feel well, you contact your GP, to extend. So am confused as to why he was testing the waters.. He every said he was fit enough, or not.. Regardless of his importance his job. I think every one's jobs important to keep everything ticking along nicely anyway, probably a very fundamentalist approach I have but if he was testing his eye sight, felt weak how helpful would he be at his job. In dire straits as a pandemic don't we need fully fit people working who can concentrate..

I really wish the journalists had half a brain cell too who interviewed him because I think he wasn't to fussed really with their questions as they never are that perplexing.


----------



## Elles

Lurcherlad said:


> I'm struggling to see how it would ever be considered a good idea to drive a car 60 miles with your family on board to test your eyesight!
> 
> Seems a lot of people agree with Cummings though :Nailbiting


----------



## Elles

Lurcherlad said:


> I'm struggling to see :Nailbiting


A visit to the castle in order?


----------



## Elles

Lurcherlad said:


> I'm struggling to see


That's no excuse for a day out. STAY AT HOME!

:Hilarious

Sorry. :Bag


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> View attachment 440581


I love this film!


----------



## lullabydream

I found this mildly interesting
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52808059
So when he claimed he was actual Chris Whitty and actual knew about pandemics, and coronovirus, he didn't at all....

The plot thickens....

He really has opened a can of worms. Matt Hancock on the briefing I am sure Boris doesn't like him he always seems to sell him under a bus.. Just my opinion.


----------



## MilleD

lullabydream said:


> I found this mildly interesting
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52808059
> So when he claimed he was actual Chris Whitty and actual knew about pandemics, and coronovirus, he didn't at all....
> 
> The plot thickens....
> 
> He really has opened a can of worms. Matt Hancock on the briefing I am sure Boris doesn't like him he always seems to sell him under a bus.. Just my opinion.


Are you watching the briefing? Matt Hancock's response to Robert Peston was priceless!

On Cummings - that article is saying that he said he predicted an issue with coronaviruses last year? But actually edited the blog post in question on 14th April 2020 (when he got back to London) to add the reference to Coronavirus in?? He needs to resign. Or at the least Boris should suspend him, at least that would stop most of this current furore so that they can concentrate on actual important things.


----------



## lullabydream

MilleD said:


> Are you watching the briefing? Matt Hancock's response to Robert Peston was priceless!
> 
> On Cummings - that article is saying that he said he predicted an issue with coronaviruses last year? But actually edited the blog post in question on 14th April 2020 (when he got back to London) to add the reference to Coronavirus in?? He needs to resign. Or at the least Boris should suspend him, at least that would stop most of this current furore so that they can concentrate on actual important things.


Just watched @MilleD shame he cut him off I wanted to know if his childcare was aged 17-20 so in the low risk category as that was the reasoning behind going up there...

I wonder how many are going to claim they were going to travel for childcare now..

It's all becoming a farce..

Cummings, Boris, Hancock quick to say he didn't do anything illegal. However not much of these guidelines are legal are they.. But really it's all based on our morality...


----------



## MilleD

lullabydream said:


> Just watched @MilleD shame he cut him off I wanted to know if his childcare was aged 17-20 so in the low risk category as that was the reasoning behind going up there...


I think he was just sick to the back teeth of question after question about the same thing. I don't blame him to be honest. Besides, Peston is an @rse 



lullabydream said:


> I wonder how many are going to claim they were going to travel for childcare now..
> 
> It's all becoming a farce..
> 
> Cummings, Boris, Hancock quick to say he didn't do anything illegal. However not much of these guidelines are legal are they.. But really it's all based on our morality...


I think everyone needs to just let it go now, it's happened, it's done, it could have been dealt with better, but it's detracting from the important issues at hand.

I doubt any fines will be refunded to be honest.

I felt a bit sorry for Hancock - like you said, under a bus!


----------



## Snoringbear

https://bylinetimes.com/2020/05/24/...al-lockdown-fines-thanks-to-dominic-cummings/


----------



## Snoringbear

I very much doubt anyone who has struggled with similar issues to Cummings and done the right thing, or worse still been unable to be with loved ones who have died, will ever forget this.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Snoringbear said:


> I very much doubt anyone who has struggled with similar issues to Cummings and done the right thing, or worse still been unable to be with loved ones who have died, will ever forget this.


Very true.
Not even those fined for the very same or if lucky sent back home.

BoJo always was brazen and cared little for law, no great surprise here...


----------



## Snoringbear

Just seen in the news that the govt will be looking at reversing fines/convictions given out for people doing the same as Cummings.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I don't think BJ will ever be totally be forgiven for backing Cummings for doing what he did.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws2 said:


> I don't the BJ will ever be totally be forgiven for backing Cummings for doing what he did.


I think Cummings is the Power behind the Loudspeaker.


----------



## Snoringbear

Can’t see Johnson sacking him. It’s like Emu sacking Rod Hull.


----------



## SbanR

Snoringbear said:


> Can't see Johnson sacking him. It's like Emu sacking Rod Hull.


Brilliant comparison


----------



## Siskin

Thought this was rather amusing


----------



## MollySmith

Snoringbear said:


> I very much doubt anyone who has struggled with similar issues to Cummings and done the right thing, or worse still been unable to be with loved ones who have died, will ever forget this.


Agree, it is very hard to move on or forget.

Much as we have to accept we should move on, it's instilled - in me- a reluctant sense of distrust. I know I'm no fan of this lot but I hoped, back in March, that I might trust them and I gave them benefit of the doubt, I've even said recently that it would be hard for any party but... all empathy has gone for not just Cummings but the cabinet. Desperate Tories are now trying to hang out SNP's Ian Blackford who chose to self isolate in Skye but the circumstances are entirely different as he didn't have any symptoms and didn't take his wife. So it's now dissolved into political point scoring when it's just not. We all deserve a hell of a lot better regardless of political persuasions.

Somehow we are meant to trust that in 1st June - next week - this government are to be trusted about schools and on 15th that retail staff are to work. That's a big deal in troubling times.


----------



## Sandysmum

This whole mess is all about trust. We are asked and expected to put our trust in the government and the guidelines/ instructions they give us. The vast majority of us have done so and as a result , we are starting to win over this terrible virus that has almost destroyed our way of life. As a country we have made many sacrifices in so many different ways, all in it together. Except for DC who seems to be above us all and interprets the rules as he sees fit. Of course some people are loosing their trust in the government and seeing it as one rule for them and a different one for us.

As for taking a drive to test his eyesight, that's one of the most stupid things I've heard for a long time. It strikes me as something he thought up on the spur of the moment with out thinking what he was saying.


----------



## lullabydream

I thought this was quite amusing, and true. 
Don't watch if easily offended




Then another article focusing on more a different specific of the rules.. 
https://www.lincolnshirelive.co.uk/...cummings-lockdown-lincolnshire-durham-4165475
If you don't want to read, a Reverend is stating that firstly his wife should have stayed at home.. Cummings and child should have gone. Cummings no symptom where the guidance if you have symptoms stay at home.. 
He's also states all people urged to go no where during Easter weekend. People didn't due to policing etc. An hours drive in totap.. Why oh why!


----------



## MollySmith

A rather good Tweet about the web of deceit, a reminder why this must be forgotten - at least whilst Johnson is still in power. And the long relationship with Mrs Cummings who apparently does drive, The Spectator and Johnson. 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1265243287327256577


----------



## Jesthar

jetsmum said:


> As for taking a drive to test his eyesight, that's one of the most stupid things I've heard for a long time. It strikes me as something he thought up on the spur of the moment with out thinking what he was saying.


I know, it's in the same league as 'my goldfish ate my homework, honest, miss!' isn't it?  The whole thing reads like an episode of Blackadder - except even Baldrick could have come up with a more cunning plan!

To be honest, I'm starting to wonder exactly what leverage Cummings has over BoJo and co. that makes him such a Teflon Dom...


----------



## Happy Paws2

Jesthar said:


> To be honest, I'm starting to wonder exactly what leverage Cummings has over BoJo and co. that makes him such a Teflon Dom...


I was wondering what hold he has on BJ as well, anyone else would have resigned or been sacked by now.


----------



## Calvine

lullabydream said:


> wonder how many are going to claim they were going to travel for childcare now..


They are now having to review all the fines (however many that was) given to people who just did exactly what DC did. And still he refuses to admit he did anything wrong. The word ''shameless'' comes to my mind. Devious and irresponsible.


----------



## lullabydream

Calvine said:


> They are now having to review all the fines (however many that was) given to people who just did exactly what DC did. And still he refuses to admit he did anything wrong. The word ''shameless'' comes to my mind. Devious and irresponsible.


I have read so much, don't know if it's a link on here or not, 
But a lawyer spoke out says it's mitigation tactic.. The example used was if a thief broke in to a house a used the defense I did it to help feed my children it wouldn't cut it per se. They don't just go OK then we understand you can do that for your family


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> T*hey are now having to review all the fines (however many that was) given to people who just did exactly what DC did.* And still he refuses to admit he did anything wrong. The word ''shameless'' comes to my mind. Devious and irresponsible.


The Chancellor of the Exchequer has said, they aren't going to look into it, the fines will still stand.


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws2 said:


> The Chancellor of the Exchequer has said, they aren't going to look into it, the fines will still stand.


 But I guess DC wasn't fined?  Sure Matt Hancock was quoted yesterday as saying that all fines would be reviewed. They really don't know their arses from their elbows, do they!:Hilarious


----------



## JANICE199

*I have thought for a long time about the way this country has been going, divide and conquer come to mind.*
*Now i agree that what Cummings did was wrong and the amount of people that are up in arms about it, ( rightly so).*
*But nothing is being said about the plane loads of people coming into the country every day. *
*And i hate that every day folk are so quick to jump on people for going to the beach, ect. Now take into account that they say the test for this virus isn't reliable, then can someone PLEASE explain to me, how so many deaths are being put down to the virus?*
*My attitude is fast becoming, i'll do and think my way.*


----------



## lullabydream

Calvine said:


> But I guess DC wasn't fined?  Sure Matt Hancock was quoted yesterday as saying that all fines wold be reviewed. They really don't know their arses from their elbows, do they!:Hilarious


I do think as I said before Boris likes to throw Matt Hancock under a bus at times. He likes to make him look a complete idiot compared to others. 
He's had him answering questions before where he the only answers he could give wouldn't be enough.


----------



## lullabydream

Bit of lightheartedness.. 
A few kicking round YouTube


----------



## SbanR

Calvine said:


> But I guess DC wasn't fined?  Sure Matt Hancock was quoted yesterday as saying that all fines would be reviewed. They really don't know their arses from their elbows, do they!:Hilarious


At the update I thought Matt Hancock said he'd take it back for discussion?


----------



## SbanR

lullabydream said:


> Bit of lightheartedness..
> A few kicking round YouTube


Dashes off to check out utube!


----------



## lullabydream

@SbanR this might be one of my favourites, short sweet with Paddy McGuinness in. Don't watch if easily offended by swearing though


----------



## SbanR

lullabydream said:


> @SbanR this might be one of my favourites, short sweet with Paddy McGuinness in. Don't watch if easily offended by swearing though


Prefer the Durham Dash


----------



## lullabydream

What about this one.. Not a song @SbanR but YouTube just keeps on giving, I must stop sharing




Might only fit my humour


----------



## SbanR

lullabydream said:


> What about this one.. Not a song @SbanR but YouTube just keeps on giving, I must stop sharing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Might only fit my humour


The best so far
NO, NO, NOOOOO! You can't be that selfish and keep it all to yourself, or has Dom Cum turned you????:Woot


----------



## Jesthar

*


JANICE199 said:



I have thought for a long time about the way this country has been going, divide and conquer come to mind.
Now i agree that what Cummings did was wrong and the amount of people that are up in arms about it, ( rightly so).
But nothing is being said about the plane loads of people coming into the country every day. 

Click to expand...

*
Plenty has been said about that, and it is another major failing of the government plan. This escapade has garnered more attention, though, as Cummings is being excused what anyone else would have been fined for. And his story has more holes in it that Swiss cheese.
*


JANICE199 said:



And i hate that every day folk are so quick to jump on people for going to the beach, ect.

Click to expand...

*Not _everyone _going to the beach etc. The muppets who travel halfway across the country despite appeals by their destinations not to, block roads when they get there (because nothing, including car parks, is open), and fail to social distance at a time when a highly contagious virus is doing the rounds.
*


JANICE199 said:



Now take into account that they say the test for this virus isn't reliable, then can someone PLEASE explain to me, how so many deaths are being put down to the virus?

Click to expand...

*NO test is 100% reliable, and this is a new virus we're still learning to test for (this is why everone is asked to behave as if they DO have the virus when out in public). But if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, usually it's going to be a duck.
*


JANICE199 said:



My attitude is fast becoming, i'll do and think my way.

Click to expand...

*Mine too. That's why I'm pretending I live in Scotland or Wales, not England, and behaving accordingly. Better safe than sorry


----------



## rona

Having gone from anger to disgust and disappointment about this whole episode, for the first time in my life, I've written to my MP.


----------



## MollySmith

rona said:


> Having gone from anger to disgust and disappointment about this whole episode, for the first time in my life, I've written to my MP.


You've inspired me to do the same. I'm thoroughly p*ssed off that we are being encouraged to move on and possibly no enquiry. Not good enough.


----------



## lullabydream

So after the liason committee meeting where Boris doesn't get the questioning on Cummings.. Yes I get moving on but even he cannot see late March Bank Holiday weekend, the majority of the UK stayed in. We listened.. His aide didn't. Give a pathetic excuse... So whose manning the briefing..
Hancock! What a bloody surprise, Boris squirms so throw Hancock under the bus yet again. I bet he despises his job.


----------



## MollySmith

JANICE199 said:


> *I have thought for a long time about the way this country has been going, divide and conquer come to mind.*
> *Now i agree that what Cummings did was wrong and the amount of people that are up in arms about it, ( rightly so).*
> *But nothing is being said about the plane loads of people coming into the country every day. *
> *And i hate that every day folk are so quick to jump on people for going to the beach, ect. Now take into account that they say the test for this virus isn't reliable, then can someone PLEASE explain to me, how so many deaths are being put down to the virus?*
> *My attitude is fast becoming, i'll do and think my way.*


I agree about the quarantine, I was more alarmed by that than Cummings and Johnson. Way back in early March, I had a friend due to fly over from Australia and he was offered full refund from airline and we talked about the Australian 14 day quarantine (I also remember Adam Hills talking about it on The Last Leg) and in our chat we kind of concluded that it wasn't worth the trip as he'd be quarantined here too. I had no idea until 10 May update that the UK wasn't doing this and I find it astonishing and as alarming as the actions of Cummings. My friend has a very low option of his government due to the bush fires and other issues but when one compares how other island nations - Greek islands, NZ - have tackled this - the often touted excuse that we have more people becomes very flimsy. We were far from the first country to get this but by far the weakest at learning from others failings and successes.

As for beaches, friends in North Cornwall have seen a big rise in day trippers, he's been verbally abused for not having his business (camper van hire) open. Local shops have taken to asking for proof of residency to stop people placing a strain on local services during the lockdown. I think we can be too judgemental but when folk don't obey social distancing and forget that the beach isn't essential (depending on interpretation of the latest missive from Westminster) it does place a strain. RNLI and coastguards don't have PPE - my friend is also a RNLI volunteer - so visitors are at risk and the services around them and I understand that there aren't any lifeguards again due to PPE.

As for volume of deaths, I have seen many posts on Twitter (Andrew Male, music writer who lost his wife just after Easter is one) where people are saying their loved one was isolated and taken into hospital showing all signs of Covid-19 but it wasn't given as the cause of death and they are extremely, and understandably, upset. I wonder more have died from it than we think due to lack of testing from the outset.


----------



## Pawscrossed

This is why I cannot move on. I will also write to my MP. 
https://amp.ft.com/content/6b4c784e...6d5gpN-z9mRJEsNJNuIbUCzdKDO_29P_VXM2KoHARvGwI


----------



## Calvine

SbanR said:


> At the update I thought Matt Hancock said he'd take it back for discussion?


 I didn't actually hear him say it, but he was quoted on the new as saying that the fines would be ''reviewed'' and it was sort of implied that anyone who had been fined for doing exactly the same as DC would get a reprieve. If the fines have not yet been paid (were they ''spot fines''?) I imagine there will be quite a few people appealing against them; unless DC receives a fine, which he won't.


----------



## MilleD

Calvine said:


> I didn't actually hear him say it, but he was quoted on the new as saying that the fines would be ''reviewed'' and it was sort of implied that anyone who had been fined for doing exactly the same as DC would get a reprieve. If the fines have not yet been paid (were they ''spot fines''?) I imagine there will be quite a few people appealing against them; unless DC receives a fine, which he won't.


He said he would take the question back and the treasury would look at it.

He didn't specifically state that refunds would be given that I can recall.



MollySmith said:


> As for volume of deaths, I have seen many posts on Twitter (Andrew Male, music writer who lost his wife just after Easter is one) where people are saying their loved one was isolated and taken into hospital showing all signs of Covid-19 but it wasn't given as the cause of death and they are extremely, and understandably, upset. I wonder more have died from it than we think due to lack of testing from the outset.


This is a strange one. There are people adamant that the government are over egging the figures (ie classing everything as Covid when the underlying problems it what actually caused the death), so that they can control us.

Then people like yourself who think the figures might be higher than are being reported.

Both these things can't be true....


----------



## lullabydream

MilleD said:


> He said he would take the question back and the treasury would look at it.
> 
> He didn't specifically state that refunds would be given that I can recall.
> 
> This is a strange one. There are people adamant that the government are over egging the figures (ie classing everything as Covid when the underlying problems it what actually caused the death), so that they can control us.
> 
> Then people like yourself who think the figures might be higher than are being reported.
> 
> Both these things can't be true....


The death rate is definitely higher than normal or was. You only have to look at national statistics for that. Although, national statistics do also show what was the most common cause of death too, when all the data is in.

I know there has been a delay in all daily figures not just weekends from the off as people are waiting for test results. Though on the whole most people know if they are Covid-19 positive if in hospital because they are often there a long time if extremely ill.

I would say we can never back track data and there will be deaths at home, care homes that they may never know unless an autopsy is done and samples were taken early on.

Due to lack of testing, mild symptoms and being asymptomatic I don't think we will never know how many people actually have had Covid-19


----------



## Jesthar

BrewDog strike again, with a limited edition 'Barnard Castle Eye Test' craft beer described as a 'Hazy Durham IPA 

https://foodanddrink.scotsman.com/d...t-new-england-ipa-with-proceeds-going-to-nhs/










All proceeds are going to the NHS and healthcare charities as well


----------



## Boxer123

Pawscrossed said:


> This is why I cannot move on. I will also write to my MP.
> https://amp.ft.com/content/6b4c784e...6d5gpN-z9mRJEsNJNuIbUCzdKDO_29P_VXM2KoHARvGwI


Painful reading.


----------



## Siskin

Jesthar said:


> BrewDog strike again, with a limited edition 'Barnard Castle Eye Test' craft beer described as a 'Hazy Durham IPA
> 
> https://foodanddrink.scotsman.com/d...t-new-england-ipa-with-proceeds-going-to-nhs/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All proceeds are going to the NHS and healthcare charities as well


Brilliant, good for them, husband is very fond of Brew Dog IPA


----------



## SbanR

Doubt if he'll get fined much, if at all


----------



## lullabydream

SbanR said:


> Doubt if he'll get fined much, if at all
> View attachment 440751


I just read this, as a minor breach.. Yes 30 miles to walk in a nice spot, when dog walkers were worried to walk a couple of miles. Which was clarified as a couple of miles.

Then stopped again.. Didn't clarify where this time for child to toilet, probably somewhere else nice, which ended up also a place for child to play. When we were not supposed to be allowing children to 'play' outside.

That point keeps being overlooked too. He kept digging a hole everytime he spoke.

The worse of it all, he walked away from that press conference am assuming he didn't think he could be seen smiling at the matter.. Maybe nervous, relief but he's so up his own posterior probably thought everyone believed him, after all Boris did!


----------



## Pawscrossed

MilleD said:


> He said he would take the question back and the treasury would look at it.
> 
> He didn't specifically state that refunds would be given that I can recall.
> 
> This is a strange one. There are people adamant that the government are over egging the figures (ie classing everything as Covid when the underlying problems it what actually caused the death), so that they can control us.
> 
> Then people like yourself who think the figures might be higher than are being reported.
> 
> Both these things can't be true....


"Of those 30 000, only 10 000 have had covid-19 specified on the death certificate. While Spiegelhalter acknowledged that some of these "excess deaths" might be the result of underdiagnosis, "the huge number of unexplained extra deaths in homes and care homes is extraordinary. When we look back . . . this rise in non-covid extra deaths outside the hospital is something I hope will be given really severe attention.""

https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1931

Maybe many deaths may not have Covid-19 on the certificate but happen because medical resources are required elsewhere. An indirect death?

A lack of tests must mean inaccurate data.

Today we are told that it is not compulsory to self isolate for 14 days but a 'civic duty' if we are tested positive. I assume this is because of 'Cummings'. If they make it compulsory he would have broken the law? I am sure it was compulsory in March to self isolate if one had symptoms.


----------



## shadowmare

Jesthar said:


> BrewDog strike again, with a limited edition 'Barnard Castle Eye Test' craft beer described as a 'Hazy Durham IPA
> 
> https://foodanddrink.scotsman.com/d...t-new-england-ipa-with-proceeds-going-to-nhs/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All proceeds are going to the NHS and healthcare charities as well


Seen it last night and already preordered a box. Supporting local business and all


----------



## MollySmith

MilleD said:


> He said he would take the question back and the treasury would look at it.
> 
> He didn't specifically state that refunds would be given that I can recall.
> 
> This is a strange one. There are people adamant that the government are over egging the figures (ie classing everything as Covid when the underlying problems it what actually caused the death), so that they can control us.
> 
> Then people like yourself who think the figures might be higher than are being reported.
> 
> Both these things can't be true....


I don't imagine we will find out for many years to come or hopefully sooner. Lots of things are coming out very quickly about this in the past week - not just Cummings but quarantine measure or lack of and the mess about care homes.


----------



## MollySmith

Pawscrossed said:


> "Of those 30 000, only 10 000 have had covid-19 specified on the death certificate. While Spiegelhalter acknowledged that some of these "excess deaths" might be the result of underdiagnosis, "the huge number of unexplained extra deaths in homes and care homes is extraordinary. When we look back . . . this rise in non-covid extra deaths outside the hospital is something I hope will be given really severe attention.""
> 
> https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1931
> 
> Maybe many deaths may not have Covid-19 on the certificate but happen because medical resources are required elsewhere. An indirect death?
> 
> A lack of tests must mean inaccurate data.
> 
> Today we are told that it is not compulsory to self isolate for 14 days but a 'civic duty' if we are tested positive. I assume this is because of 'Cummings'. If they make it compulsory he would have broken the law? I am sure it was compulsory in March to self isolate if one had symptoms.


Civic duty is very ambiguous isn't it? The new guidance issues yesterday equally so. Yes yes, I know there will be people here and out there saying 'it's on my guidance' but an awful lot of people take it as gospel and if it's not safe guidance then we are all at risk... cue second wave. 800 people died in the past two days and there was no mention of the R level in the daily update.


----------



## MilleD

MollySmith said:


> Civic duty is very ambiguous isn't it? The new guidance issues yesterday equally so. Yes yes, I know there will be people here and out there saying 'it's on my guidance' but an awful lot of people take it as gospel and if it's not safe guidance then we are all at risk... cue second wave. 800 people died in the past two days and there was no mention of the R level in the daily update.


It was on the news yesterday that it was still between 0.7 and 0.9.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Sorry wrong thread


----------



## MilleD

Edit replied to post on wrong thread


----------



## rona

https://www.change.org/p/dominic-cu...ldGl0aW9uAAn7VAEAAAAAXsqjeWkUPVMwZmFmZTNlMw==


----------



## Happy Paws2

Just been watching on the news a woman with a Down syndrome girl who was that ill she was just lying on the sofa for three days trying to look after her on her own. The more I'm hearing about what people have had to struggle with, the more I think Cummings should still go.


----------



## MollySmith

MilleD said:


> It was on the news yesterday that it was still between 0.7 and 0.9.


Only in some areas and not in the daily briefing. Presumably where it's higher it's wack a mole, whatever that means. I'm sure it makes sense in Johnson's tiny mind. On BBC scientists are saying still too high for lockdown to be eased (link posted in the other coronavirus thread).


----------



## MollySmith

How to find your MP. I wrote to express my concern about the cabinet, furloughing and Cummings. 
https://members.parliament.uk/FindYourMP


----------



## MollySmith

‘Have I Got News For You’ last night 
Janet Street Porter: all this talk about Dominic Cummings has got us nowhere 
Ian Hislop: He hasn’t resigned yet!

Perfectly said and very well pulled apart by Hislop (he also took Newsnight bosses to task too).


----------



## MilleD

MollySmith said:


> How to find your MP. I wrote to express my concern about the cabinet, furloughing and Cummings.
> https://members.parliament.uk/FindYourMP


What is your issue with the furlough scheme?

You'd hope most people would know who their MP is as we've not long had a general election.


----------



## MilleD

MollySmith said:


> Only in some areas and not in the daily briefing. Presumably where it's higher it's wack a mole, whatever that means. I'm sure it makes sense in Johnson's tiny mind. On BBC scientists are saying still too high for lockdown to be eased (link posted in the other coronavirus thread).


https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-r-number-in-the-uk

This is updated regularly. Of course some areas are different, but this is overall.


----------



## MollySmith

MilleD said:


> What is your issue with the furlough scheme?
> 
> You'd hope most people would know who their MP is as we've not long had a general election.


Clarity


----------



## MilleD

MollySmith said:


> Clarity


I'm not sure what you mean. I thought it had been pretty clear. The employer contributions have been stated and when they are doing that, the flexible scheme is being introduced earlier than they said which is good. The self employed version has another 3 months grant that can be claimed, but at a lower rate to tie in with the employer contributions to the furlough scheme.


----------



## MollySmith

MilleD said:


> I'm not sure what you mean. I thought it had been pretty clear. The employer contributions have been stated and when they are doing that, the flexible scheme is being introduced earlier than they said which is good. The self employed version has another 3 months grant that can be claimed, but at a lower rate to tie in with the employer contributions to the furlough scheme.


Thanks.I am aware of that. I had other questions - it's a joint letter from a business group hence not wanting to explain anymore and it was more to do with potential (and seemingly almost certain) second wave and business support amongst other points.


----------



## MollySmith

Pawscrossed said:


> "Of those 30 000, only 10 000 have had covid-19 specified on the death certificate. While Spiegelhalter acknowledged that some of these "excess deaths" might be the result of underdiagnosis, "the huge number of unexplained extra deaths in homes and care homes is extraordinary. When we look back . . . this rise in non-covid extra deaths outside the hospital is something I hope will be given really severe attention.""
> 
> https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1931
> 
> Maybe many deaths may not have Covid-19 on the certificate but happen because medical resources are required elsewhere. An indirect death?
> 
> A lack of tests must mean inaccurate data.
> 
> Today we are told that it is not compulsory to self isolate for 14 days but a 'civic duty' if we are tested positive. I assume this is because of 'Cummings'. If they make it compulsory he would have broken the law? I am sure it was compulsory in March to self isolate if one had symptoms.


Have you seen this? I think this maybe what you're referring to?

_In addition, people were told to avoid hospitals unless it was absolutely essential. They listened; our non-Covid work during the first peak was a fraction of what it usually is. This was probably the only reason we coped at all.

The problem is that we are already seeing the results of this. Patients are not doctors; they cannot reasonably be expected to reliably self-diagnose what is essential and what isn't. After two months of neglect their symptoms are becoming intolerable and, unable to seek help through the usual channels, they are coming in later in their disease course than we'd expect and often in a terrible state.

You don't have to catch Covid-19 to die because of it.

Maybe we could get away with all this first time around, but for patients with life-threatening non-Covid disease these effects will be even more horrific after three months of standstill. We urgently need to provide for these people and there is no guarantee they will be able to stay away in the same way during a second peak._​
https://www.theguardian.com/society...re-exhausted-and-a-second-surge-is-on-its-way


----------



## MilleD

MollySmith said:


> Thanks.I am aware of that. I had other questions - it's a joint letter from a business group hence not wanting to explain anymore and it was more to do with potential (and seemingly almost certain) second wave and business support amongst other points.


The chancellor answered a question about a potential second wave and whether additional paid by the government furlough periods would be forthcoming. The answer seemed to be no. He didn't specifically say that, but he did say the UK scheme has been one of the most generous in the world (and it has, millions of people have been very lucky) so from that I would take it that at the moment there is no plan for a further extension.


----------



## lullabydream

MollySmith said:


> Have you seen this? I think this maybe what you're referring to?
> 
> _In addition, people were told to avoid hospitals unless it was absolutely essential. They listened; our non-Covid work during the first peak was a fraction of what it usually is. This was probably the only reason we coped at all.
> 
> The problem is that we are already seeing the results of this. Patients are not doctors; they cannot reasonably be expected to reliably self-diagnose what is essential and what isn't. After two months of neglect their symptoms are becoming intolerable and, unable to seek help through the usual channels, they are coming in later in their disease course than we'd expect and often in a terrible state.
> 
> You don't have to catch Covid-19 to die because of it.
> 
> Maybe we could get away with all this first time around, but for patients with life-threatening non-Covid disease these effects will be even more horrific after three months of standstill. We urgently need to provide for these people and there is no guarantee they will be able to stay away in the same way during a second peak._​
> https://www.theguardian.com/society...re-exhausted-and-a-second-surge-is-on-its-way


Isn't that a none article? Isn't this exactly why those at daily briefings were trying to explain to people that people that hospitals, GPS were still open as normal. Telling people this. Further back, at the beginning of this thread, this has time and time and time be emphasised again..

Media seems to have nothing to talk about, no one to blame but the government who can't do right about the lockdown and measures, we were too late, early, no doing what other countries are doing. This has been discussed here maybe a month, 6 weeks ago.. Scientist were discussing it. Am presuming Sage, and scientists were worried too but the media have decided to run with what they want again. Doesn't surprise me to be honest after politics went crazy.

Cummings has changed no doubt for many what is believed we should do. Which will just get the media to do what they do best media to nit pick the government because of course with hindsight, they could all do better.


----------



## MollySmith

lullabydream said:


> Isn't that a none article? Isn't this exactly why those at daily briefings were trying to explain to people that people that hospitals, GPS were still open as normal. Telling people this. Further back, at the beginning of this thread, this has time and time and time be emphasised again..
> 
> Media seems to have nothing to talk about, no one to blame but the government who can't do right about the lockdown and measures, we were too late, early, no doing what other countries are doing. This has been discussed here maybe a month, 6 weeks ago.. Scientist were discussing it. Am presuming Sage, and scientists were worried too but the media have decided to run with what they want again. Doesn't surprise me to be honest after politics went crazy.
> 
> Cummings has changed no doubt for many what is believed we should do. Which will just get the media to do what they do best media to nit pick the government because of course with hindsight, they could all do better.


I guess it's how one learns from past errors and maybe until that's communicated - if at all - by the government then I suppose the media will keep going back to it by popular demand (if Twitter is a portrait of a nation... I sincerely hope not!)

Edited to add this link which explains data without obvious bias
https://www.health.org.uk/news-and-...fairest-way-to-make-international-comparisons


----------



## MollySmith

Spank him with the Spectator- oh yes 

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/poli...uld-appease-the-british-public-20200529197008


----------



## MollySmith

MilleD said:


> The chancellor answered a question about a potential second wave and whether additional paid by the government furlough periods would be forthcoming. The answer seemed to be no. He didn't specifically say that, but he did say the UK scheme has been one of the most generous in the world (and it has, millions of people have been very lucky) so from that I would take it that at the moment there is no plan for a further extension.


Yes he did and at some point there will be a cost to pay - that was always obvious however generous it may appear, this money doesn't grow on trees or sides of buses. The other points are around furloughed staff and self employed that won't be answered here and which take us off @Happy Paws2 thread even if thousands of people have lost their job and Cummings keeps his.


----------



## MilleD

MollySmith said:


> Yes he did and at some point there will be a cost to pay - that was always obvious however generous it may appear, this money doesn't grow on trees or sides of buses. The other points are around furloughed staff and self employed that won't be answered here and which take us off @Happy Paws2 thread even if thousands of people have lost their job and Cummings keeps his.


So you don't think that the support that government has put in place is pretty incredible? Because it is!

Of course at some point the employers will be expected to shell out!

It baffles me that this programme isn't something that business and employees are thanking their lucky stars for.


----------



## mrs phas

MollySmith said:


> Spank him with the Spectator- oh yes
> 
> https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/poli...uld-appease-the-british-public-20200529197008


sorry but that did make me smile
reminded me of the late great Victoria Wood and a line from the ballard of Barry and Freda


----------



## shadowmare

MilleD said:


> So you don't think that the support that government has put in place is pretty incredible? Because it is!
> 
> Of course at some point the employers will be expected to shell out!
> 
> It baffles me that this programme isn't something that business and employees are thanking their lucky stars for.


Lucky stars? Several countries in EU promised and introduced the furlough schemes before UK even started the lock down. It would be pretty embarrassing for the UK government not to offer anything similar!


----------



## MilleD

shadowmare said:


> Lucky stars? Several countries in EU promised and introduced the furlough schemes before UK even started the lock down. It would be pretty embarrassing for the UK government not to offer anything similar!


It's still one of the most generous and least restrictive. Germany already had a scheme in place prior to coronavirus.

Are you saying that what the government is doing isn't helping people? Perhaps they should just stop the payments and let people deal with it themselves?

They really can't do anything right in some people's eyes can they?

Not happy with the furlough scheme. Not happy that the restrictions are being eased so businesses can reopen.....


----------



## MollySmith

MilleD said:


> So you don't think that the support that government has put in place is pretty incredible? Because it is!
> 
> Of course at some point the employers will be expected to shell out!
> 
> It baffles me that this programme isn't something that business and employees are thanking their lucky stars for.


You've certainly leap to a lot of conclusions in your reply to me from very little information I've shared. I've thanked you for your posts which gave information I already knew - thanks again. The specific points I've raised are between me, my MP and the letter I've written.


----------



## MollySmith

Duplicate reply - deleted


----------



## MilleD

MollySmith said:


> You've certainly leap to a lot of conclusions in your reply to me from very little information I've shared. I've thanked you for your posts which gave information I already knew - thanks again. The specific points I've raised are between me, my MP and the letter I've written.


It's very rare to write to an MP to praise them.


----------



## MollySmith

Deleted.


----------



## MollySmith

MilleD said:


> It's very rare to write to an MP to praise them.


I didn't say I was praising them. Or berating them. It's a carefully written communication to which I've already had a response.


----------



## rottieboys

Dave S said:


> I may have to go an see my brother soon but he is only 125 miles away, not seen him for a few years.
> To make sure I am OK I will take my youngest son on the pretence that it is for urgent child care.
> 
> (Did I forget to say my youngest son is 31 years old?)
> 
> I really do not see how Cummings can stay in his position much longer as there are now so many MP's on all sides of the house against him and it has reduced Boris's credibility as a leader and as someone who is steering the country out of this virus.
> 
> Dom - just go and don't come back - give the job to someone who has a bit of common sense.
> 
> Edit 'cos I forgot - have a nice bank holiday everyone.


I see your very closes to your brother... Not seen for a few years.


----------



## rottieboys

lullabydream said:


> We were all told in lockdown
> 
> If you or a member of a family become ill. To stay at home. Everyone in that household self isolate together, for a minimum of 14 days.
> We didn't see, hear exclusions for children, we all saw it as suck it up as you do as parents when cold, flu type bugs arise. You all pretty much get it, and do the best you can. Plus told most will get mild symptoms.. 80% figure. So cross your fingers.
> 
> Oh and told only essential driving.
> 
> Cummings, the number 1 government aide to Boris. Wife had symptoms, so drove miles and miles to his second home to isolate. To be near family.. Just in case they both got ill. So they had childcare. Most likely stopping on the way with a 4 year old needing toileting facilities, petrol maybe.
> 
> Cummings also managed to have a day out.
> 
> So whilst many people have struggled being ill, with said virus, keeping everyone isolated etc, no one was aware of this common sense rule. Am sure most would seek help from family if 2 adults were struggling at the same time, but not the case.


You obvious you did n't listen... They went in the evening...Midnight before they got there... Child was asleep...Also the car he has got can drive that distance without filling up... They stayed isolated .Until trying out if he can drive . A day out. What a laugh.. They did n't walk around. Funny, the person who saw him and the wife sitting down. Managed to take his car number plate, before talking to the press. What was he doing there..If it was a lock down.. Who take number plates..


----------



## rottieboys

kimthecat said:


> Come on Dominic , hurry up. This is like Columbo or Agatha Christie, The Mysterious case of Dominic Cummings.


Who care...only the remainers.


----------



## rottieboys

MollySmith said:


> The awful thing is that I agree with the Daily Mail and Piers Morgan. Yikes!


Yes, I can see where your coming from..


----------



## rottieboys

rona said:


> No, but they aren't in his position within the government


Yes they are...Coming out the wood works now...


----------



## rottieboys

Happy Paws2 said:


> I don't think he'll be the only one.


Lets wait and see....Boris has 5 years....He can afford to have some upset MP.... Must be mad to give up on their position.


----------



## rottieboys

MilleD said:


> I think he was just sick to the back teeth of question after question about the same thing. I don't blame him to be honest. Besides, Peston is an @rse
> 
> I think everyone needs to just let it go now, it's happened, it's done, it could have been dealt with better, but it's detracting from the important issues at hand.
> 
> I doubt any fines will be refunded to be honest.
> 
> I felt a bit sorry for Hancock - like you said, under a bus!


I think Hancock did very well....Fed up with the same old Questions....Boris...stand by your man.. This is a political point scoring.... Might have something to do with Brexit...


----------



## rottieboys

rona said:


> Having gone from anger to disgust and disappointment about this whole episode, for the first time in my life, I've written to my MP.


Me too. Told Boris, Well done for standing by DC... Do not give in to peer pressure...


----------



## rottieboys

MollySmith said:


> How to find your MP. I wrote to express my concern about the cabinet, furloughing and Cummings.
> https://members.parliament.uk/FindYourMP


I wrote to mine..Told her to leave Boris alone...Best P M we have had for a long time.


----------



## rottieboys

MilleD said:


> It's still one of the most generous and least restrictive. Germany already had a scheme in place prior to coronavirus.
> 
> Are you saying that what the government is doing isn't helping people? Perhaps they should just stop the payments and let people deal with it themselves?
> 
> They really can't do anything right in some people's eyes can they?
> 
> Not happy with the furlough scheme. Not happy that the restrictions are being eased so businesses can reopen.....


I agree...Even the Shielding are now saying they must go out....Go out...Boris is trying to Help..But you have to remember not everyone voted for him....


----------



## Happy Paws2

rottieboys said:


> Who care...only the remainers.


Why would you say that, I don't care about politics where this is concerned, how many other people in the same position as him or on their own and just stayed at home and get one with it, not risking spreading it round the country.

He had a sick wife and still went to work.
Traveled almost one end of the country to the other.
Then decided to have a thirty mile trip to check his eye sight.


----------



## rona

rottieboys said:


> Me too. Told Boris, Well done for standing by DC... Do not give in to peer pressure...


It's not just peer pressure though is it. It's from every part of society. Just disgusted at the hypocrisy of both mens actions. I've been a Boris champion for a very long time, but I cannot stomach this. It's so obviously the old boys network in full corrupt operation 

I truly wish it wasn't. I had such high hopes of Boris


----------



## SbanR

[QUOTE="Happy Paws2, post: 1065620987, member:

He had a sick wife and still went to work.
Traveled almost one end of the country to the other.
Then decided to have a thirty mile trip to check his eye sight.[/QUOTE]
You left out one important point - he cooped his child up in a tin can for several hours with a woman showing Covid symptoms


----------



## Happy Paws2

rottieboys said:


> I agree...Even the Shielding are now saying they must go out....Go out...Boris is trying to Help..But you have to remember not everyone voted for him....


 He said 12 weeks now it's 10 weeks, I think for some people who have real health issues should think very carefully about going out.


----------



## rottieboys

Happy Paws2 said:


> Why would you say that, I don't care about politics where this is concerned, how many other people in the same position as him or on their own and just stayed at home and get one with it, not risking spreading it round the country.
> 
> He had a sick wife and still went to work.
> Traveled almost one end of the country to the other.
> Then decided to have a thirty mile trip to check his eye sight.


I know that my daughter would of driven the same to get her small child to me to look after if they were both ill. Also remember the child was autistic, and only 4 years old.... Did he infected anyone.... NO


----------



## Dave S

rottieboys said:


> I see your very closes to your brother... Not seen for a few years.


As they say, you can choose your friends but not your family...……………..


----------



## Happy Paws2

SbanR said:


> [QUOTE="Happy Paws2, post: 1065620987, member:
> 
> He had a sick wife and still went to work.
> Traveled almost one end of the country to the other.
> Then decided to have a thirty mile trip to check his eye sight.


*You left out one important point - he cooped his child up in a tin can for several hours with a woman showing Covid symptoms*[/QUOTE]

I did, didn't I, I think he was just thinking of himself.


----------



## Dave S

Really is time to move on from DC though, enough has been said for and against and nothing will happen to hm. He is good for the Conservative party with his ideas etc even though I, like many others do not like him as a person.

As for his relationship with BJ, just a look at his wife's Wikipedia entry would give you clue as to how secure he is.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rottieboys said:


> I know that my daughter would of driven the same to get her small child to me to look after if they were both ill. Also remember the child was autistic, and only 4 years old.... *Did he infected anyone.... NO*


How do you know that, they must have stopped for the toilet on a journey that far and he did say he stopped for petrol.

That's not the point, he was the one who wrote the rules, and people did what was asked of them, he didn't.


----------



## rottieboys

We will not be able to move on... They are going to keep this going for some time yet....


----------



## rottieboys

Happy Paws2 said:


> How do you know that, they must have stopped for the toilet on a journey that far and he did say he stopped for petrol.
> 
> That's not the point, he was the one who wrote the rules, and people did what was asked of them, he didn't.


You didn't listen. On the way back, after he spent 14 days there he got petrol... WHY on earth are we going on and on about this... We have illegal immigrants crossing the channel. Murderers, Rapists. No one cares.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rottieboys said:


> You didn't listen. On the way back, after he spent 14 days there he got petrol... WHY on earth are we going on and on about this... We have illegal immigrants crossing the channel. Murderers, Rapists. * No one cares.*


I think you'll find a lot of people are still very annoyed, they did the right thing he did not.

Plus that fact that it was *HIM* that can up with the rule in the first place, if you can't keep your own rule why should anyone else, we did he didn't.


----------



## rottieboys

Charity said:


> I think this is absolutely disgusting. I hate the journalists, its just a witch hunt. The man made mistakes but he can't change things and I don't see why he has to keep explaining himself to those idiots or us even. We had an hour of this yesterday and now we're getting it again. There are a lot more important things to be talking about.


Did you know that they even keyed his car. How disgusting. That Emily what's her name were telling people to throw eggs at him..


----------



## lullabydream

Dave S said:


> He is good for the Conservative party with his ideas etc even though


Is he?
The first thought when his family may have Covid-19 is pure panic. He's been to meetings, he knows that many people get mild symptoms, he's worked with Hancock who got an horrid throat.. His wife is sick. He thinks Covid-19 he thinks OMG we are doomed we won't be able to cope.. Even after sending leaflets stating a family with 2 adults, 2 children and 2 stay at home.

He knows the rules.. Presumes after vomiting his wife has Covid-19 but then goes back to work? Instead of staying and isolating.

Goes home in a blind panic still with what ifs, buts.. then flees..when he knows 80% of the population get mild symptoms

Is that even rational? Is this someone who is a good aide? If something starts to affect him directly he's going to panic, make rash decisions..


----------



## rottieboys

SbanR said:


> [QUOTE="Happy Paws2, post: 1065620987, member:
> 
> He had a sick wife and still went to work.
> Traveled almost one end of the country to the other.
> Then decided to have a thirty mile trip to check his eye sight.


You left out one important point - he cooped his child up in a tin can for several hours with a woman showing Covid symptoms[/QUOTE]
Where did it say , He went to work while his wife was sick... People are making up so many Storie.


----------



## rottieboys

In todays Express, Man made the story up about D C going twice to castle...... Never mind the Press had a field day.


----------



## lullabydream

rottieboys said:


> You obvious you did n't listen... They went in the evening...Midnight before they got there... Child was asleep...Also the car he has got can drive that distance without filling up... They stayed isolated .Until trying out if he can drive . A day out. What a laugh.. They did n't walk around. Funny, the person who saw him and the wife sitting down. Managed to take his car number plate, before talking to the press. What was he doing there..If it was a lock down.. Who take number plates..


How do you know the child was asleep? Not all children are good at sleeping 
He said he was 95% positive he didn't stop on the way there.. So the car didnt need filling up. They may have got something to eat, drink or use the toilet.

You really think you drive to test your eyesight with a 30 minute drive to a local beauty spot. At the time people were being stopped to drive cars a few miles to walk dogs.. Oh and to test your eyes please the biggest laugh ever. The trip coincide with his wifes birthday.

The person who saw him maybe lived local, and had the right to be there.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.. All I have seen is total hypocrisy from Dominic Cummings, where families all over have struggled.


----------



## rona

rottieboys said:


> Where did it say , He went to work while his wife was sick... People are making up so many Storie.


He said it himself in the interview. Did you watch it?


----------



## Calvine

When this first came out, I thought DC's position as senior adviser to the PM was surely untenable (especially in view of the fact that four others had resigned). How wrong can you be!


----------



## rona

rottieboys said:


> I know that my daughter would of driven the same to get her small child to me to look after if they were both ill. Also remember the child was autistic, and only 4 years old.... Did he infected anyone.... NO


I thought it has been established that the child is not autistic?


----------



## rottieboys

All you remainers. Read the Daily Mail on line... Teacher who reported DC did in fact..Drove miles [200] to collect his daughter under lockdown.... Man thought it was funny told the press DC went to the castle twice... All those protesters were in fact. Remainers.. BBc staff. Thank you Dail Mail.... We can all see what is going on...Yes, he did wrong, But to have all these lies .


----------



## rona

rottieboys said:


> All you remainers. Read the Daily Mail on line... Teacher who reported DC did in fact..Drove miles [200] to collect his daughter under lockdown.... Man thought it was funny told the press DC went to the castle twice... All those protesters were in fact. Remainers.. BBc staff. Thank you Dail Mail.... We can all see what is going on...Yes, he did wrong, But to have all these lies .


You surely watched the interview?

I am a staunch Brexiteer.


----------



## rottieboys

rona said:


> He said it himself in the interview. Did you watch it?


Yes, His wife were sick before he was . The wife went to the Hospital with their sick child..Surely, the hospital would not have let her in... She stay the night in hospital with the child.


----------



## rottieboys

rona said:


> You surely watched the interview?
> 
> I am a staunch Brexiteer.


Yes I did watch the interview. Thank you... How could he justified himself against the lies that were printed about him.


----------



## rona

rottieboys said:


> Yes, His wife were sick before he was . The wife went to the Hospital with their sick child..Surely, the hospital would not have let her in... She stay the night in hospital with the child.


He rushed out of a meeting to go to his sick wife, establishing that she wasn't very ill but not knowing if it was Covid or not, he then went back to work. Only hours after he decided that they should travel North incase they all has covid.
This is what he told reporters.


----------



## Happy Paws2

On the News they were saying, people were phoning 101 saying both parents thought they had the virus they had children what should they do, they were told in no circumstances to leave their home, they all had to stay where they were.

_edited for spelling_


----------



## rona

rottieboys said:


> Yes I did watch the interview. Thank you... How could he justified himself against the lies that were printed about him.


He didn't have to, he only had to tell the truth. That truth, if that's what it was, substantiated all that they said about him.
I hadn't read the hype, but after listening to what he said, I was sickened by the hypocrisy and blatant disregard for others


----------



## rottieboys

rona said:


> He rushed out of a meeting to go to his sick wife, establishing that she wasn't very ill but not knowing if it was Covid or not, he then went back to work. Only hours after he decided that they should travel North incase they all has covid.
> This is what he told reporters.


I will listen to the full interview again... If I am wrong, I will apologise. See how easy it is, if people get things wrong....


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> He said it himself in the interview. Did you watch it?


I heard him say that as well, I was shocked when he said it, for a minute I wondered if that was how BJ got it.


----------



## Calvine

rottieboys said:


> Yes I did watch the interview. Thank you... How could he justified himself against the lies that were printed about him.


He made no attempt to deny what he has done though, did he, he just tried to justify it. He blatantly broke the rules that he has helped to make! That is the point that people are trying to make, as far as I can see.


----------



## rottieboys

Happy Paws2 said:


> On the News they were saying, people were phoning 101 saying both parents thought they had the virus they had children what should they do, they were told in no circumstances to leave they home, they all had to stay where they were.


What if they had to hospital. What would of happen to the children.


----------



## MollySmith

rottieboys said:


> All you remainers. Read the Daily Mail on line... Teacher who reported DC did in fact..Drove miles [200] to collect his daughter under lockdown.... Man thought it was funny told the press DC went to the castle twice... All those protesters were in fact. Remainers.. BBc staff. Thank you Dail Mail.... We can all see what is going on...Yes, he did wrong, But to have all these lies .


You aren't aware that the government are behind a good news campaign in the Daily Wail. (See the other coronavirus thread) Honestly, even members of the Tory party are protesting about Cummings.


----------



## Jesthar

rottieboys said:


> Yes, His wife were sick before he was . The wife went to the Hospital with their sick child..Surely, the hospital would not have let her in... She stay the night in hospital with the child.


Two doctors in my family. Hospitals have NEVER stopped admitting people who need medical help.



rottieboys said:


> What if they had to hospital. What would of happen to the children.


If memory serves, there were three other family households within London not too far away. Thousands of other people have managed to handle being ill whilst locked down with kids without driving several hundred miles and taking a birthday day trip to a castle...


----------



## Jesthar




----------



## MollySmith

rottieboys said:


> I wrote to mine..Told her to leave Boris alone...Best P M we have had for a long time.


 Morning Mr Cummings, lovely to have you on PF. How is Boris this morning?

btw, you are famous for being in the minority...
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...mps-with-180000-emails-about-dominic-cummings

Even your old chum Theresa May said so...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...minic-cummings-did-not-abide-spirit-lockdown/


----------



## Happy Paws2

rottieboys said:


> What if they had to hospital. What would of happen to the children.


The same as what happens to other children, something would have been sorted out. I don't believe there was no one in London that wouldn't have stepped in to help. I believe there is a brother-in-law living in London.


----------



## Calvine

MollySmith said:


> You aren't aware that the government are behind a good news campaign in the Daily Wail. (See the other coronavirus thread) Honestly, even members of the Tory party are protesting about Cummings.


Yes - last I heard about 38 Conservative MPs . . . only about four siding with him.


----------



## rona

Calvine said:


> Yes - last I heard about 38 Conservative MPs . . . only about four siding with him.


Poor sods will lose their jobs next reshuffle I would think


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> Poor sods will lose their jobs next reshuffle I would think


Only minsters can loose their jobs and they seem to be toeing the line, he can't do anything to MPs


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> Poor sods will lose their jobs next reshuffle I would think


 Probably; while the one who should have resigned (OR lost his job) will still be advising Boris to tell us all what to do. I don't think BJ has done himself any favours though, Tory popularity has slumped massively. I think until this, most people thought he had handled the crisis quite well (or at least, no worse than Corbyn would have done).


----------



## MollySmith

Calvine said:


> Yes - last I heard about 38 Conservative MPs . . . only about four siding with him.





rona said:


> Poor sods will lose their jobs next reshuffle I would think


Yes, I expect so, hundreds of people lost their jobs due to this yet Cummings keeps his. Still, I'm sure he'll be terribly pleased to know he has support from @rottieboys


----------



## Happy Paws2

Jesthar said:


>


Brilliant :Hilarious


----------



## rona

Calvine said:


> Probably; while the one who should have resigned (OR lost his job) will still be advising Boris to tell us all what to do. I don't think BJ has done himself any favours though, Tory popularity has slumped massively. I think until this, most people thought he had handled the crisis quite well (or at least, no worse than Corbyn would have done).


Honestly, in one fell swoop Boris has lost the trust of even some of his most ardent supporters.
I honestly can't see why he's done this. I'm totally bemused by his actions.


----------



## MollySmith

Calvine said:


> Probably; while the one who should have resigned (OR lost his job) will still be advising Boris to tell us all what to do. I don't think BJ has done himself any favours though, Tory popularity has slumped massively. I think until this, most people thought he had handled the crisis quite well (or at least, no worse than Corbyn would have done).


Yes. At the start, way back in March I felt exactly that. I'm openly not a fan of Johnson and his party, never made it a secret on here but I felt he was doing the best he could (felt mild pity at one point) until it became clear he had missed meetings and opportunities over strategies and PPE that could have saved lives. Many on here have said 'move on' and to a degree I get that, because the more we eyeball Cummings, the more we're distracted from other government news like Brexit. In many ways the virus and Cummings is the best blanket to hide other stuff and I can't help wonder if that's the game plan. I genuinely think Johnson wanted to get the PM role, get Brexit 'done' and use Cummings as the fall guy for that (he is behind a lot of the Brexit planning which is maybe another reason why he's needed) and then head to the general election. His behaviour around Covid-19 in December and through to March speaks of delegation and a working, if not personal, focus elsewhere - Brexit I imagine. Now he has been thrown into a crisis that any party would struggle with but it's the manner of it. An apology and willingness to work on this cross party would really help but I get the impression it's his way or no way. This is entirely personal subjectivity and I have no shred of evidence behind an infamous list of what Johnson didn't do that was circulating social media and first published in the media (them again)!

I actually don't think Johnson gives a rats arse about his popularity. I think he's above that, much like Jacob Rees Mogg.


----------



## Happy Paws2

You mentioning his name, we haven't anything from Jacob Rees Mogg for months.


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> Honestly, in one fell swoop Boris has lost the trust of even some of his most ardent supporters.
> I honestly can't see why he's done this. I'm totally bemused by his actions.


I don't know of one person who thinks BJ is right to keep this guy. Not one. MPs have been inundated with complaints, thousands upon thousands.


----------



## Calvine

MollySmith said:


> he'll be terribly pleased to know he has support from @rottieboys


Pahahahaha!


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> Yes, I expect so, hundreds of people lost their jobs due to this yet Cummings keeps his. Still, I'm sure he'll be terribly pleased to know he has support from @rottieboys


Im sure you didn't meant to but you've come over as rather sarcastic to Rottieboys. Shes entitled to her opinion. A lot of people do support him and not all of them are Tory voters.


----------



## SbanR

[QUOTE="kimthecat, post: 1065621155, member: A lot of people do support him and not all of them are Tory voters.[/QUOTE]
Do they still support him though, after this?


----------



## Dave S

SbanR said:


> [QUOTE="kimthecat, post: 1065621155, member: A lot of people do support him and not all of them are Tory voters.


Do they still support him though, after this?[/QUOTE]

Support him or not he has done a great job for Sir Kier Starmer and Labour.


----------



## kimthecat

SbanR said:


> [QUOTE="kimthecat, post: 1065621155, member: A lot of people do support him and not all of them are Tory voters.





> Do they still support him though, after this?


Yes , its all on Twitter, I don't give a rat's arse ,myself but think its about time we moved on.


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> Im sure you didn't meant to but you've come over as rather sarcastic to Rottieboys. Shes entitled to her opinion. A lot of people do support him and not all of them are Tory voters.


If 'a lot of people' support him, then I might well come over as sarcastic but when it's arguably evidenced that he has very few supporters, I could be genuine.


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> Yes , its all on Twitter, I don't give a rat's arse ,myself but think its about time we moved on.


Depends on who you follow, like any forum or platform, there is user bias.


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> If 'a lot of people' support him, then I might well come over as sarcastic but when it's arguably evidenced that he has very few supporters, I could be genuine.


I doubt it .


----------



## rona

MollySmith said:


> the more we're distracted from other government news like Brexit. In many ways the virus and Cummings is the best blanket to hide other stuff and I can't help wonder if that's the game plan


I'm not sure this is the case. I would imagine that many will look more closely at what's going on.
Boris and his cabinet have already broken promises


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> Depends on who you follow, like any forum or platform, there is user bias.


Yes Absolutely . That's why its important not to mock people who are in the minority . They stop posting and the forum becomes one sided. 
Again , he has supporters , just because you don't see them doesn't mean they don't exist.


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> Yes , its all on Twitter, I don't give a rat's arse ,myself but think its about time we moved on.


It's not about Cummings though is it?

It's about trust.


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> It's not about Cummings though is it?
> 
> It's about trust.


good point. I stopped trusting politicians a few years back . As i said before Boris is my MP and he has just used us and let us down . But he is the PM and Im sure he is trying to do whats best in these circumstances.


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> Yes Absolutely . That's why its important not to mock people who are in the minority . They stop posting and the forum becomes one sided.
> Again , he has supporters , just because you don't see them doesn't mean they don't exist.


You've interpreted as mocking and sarcastic.. I'm merely stating a fact about Twitter. This is an open forum and supporters can create a thread or contribute here too.


----------



## MollySmith

rona said:


> I'm not sure this is the case. I would imagine that many will look more closely at what's going on.
> Boris and his cabinet have already broken promises


Agree, it's hard to know what's going on.


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> I doubt it .


Perhaps you didn't mean to but you've come across as being a little direct. I'll give benefit of doubt since it's very hard to understand the tone of a poster without inflection and it is a heated subject.

I'm going to take some time out to sit in my garden and read a book, it's a lovely day for it.


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> good point. I stopped trusting politicians a few years back . As i said before Boris is my MP and he has just used us and let us down .


Well, at least he's still holding true to his personal principles, then...



kimthecat said:


> *But he is the PM and Im sure he is trying to do whats best in these circumstances.*


Agreed. The real question is, what's best for whom?


----------



## rottieboys

MollySmith said:


> Yes. At the start, way back in March I felt exactly that. I'm openly not a fan of Johnson and his party, never made it a secret on here but I felt he was doing the best he could (felt mild pity at one point) until it became clear he had missed meetings and opportunities over strategies and PPE that could have saved lives. Many on here have said 'move on' and to a degree I get that, because the more we eyeball Cummings, the more we're distracted from other government news like Brexit. In many ways the virus and Cummings is the best blanket to hide other stuff and I can't help wonder if that's the game plan. I genuinely think Johnson wanted to get the PM role, get Brexit 'done' and use Cummings as the fall guy for that (he is behind a lot of the Brexit planning which is maybe another reason why he's needed) and then head to the general election. His behaviour around Covid-19 in December and through to March speaks of delegation and a working, if not personal, focus elsewhere - Brexit I imagine. Now he has been thrown into a crisis that any party would struggle with but it's the manner of it. An apology and willingness to work on this cross party would really help but I get the impression it's his way or no way. This is entirely personal subjectivity and I have no shred of evidence behind an infamous list of what Johnson didn't do that was circulating social media and first published in the media (them again)!
> 
> I actually don't think Johnson gives a rats arse about his popularity. I think he's above that, much like Jacob Rees Mogg.


All these poles...One in the Daily Express did a pole last week. should Boris sack D C. 69% said no. I was one of them. Boris has got 5 years. Nothing is going to happen to him. Yes he might reshuffle some of his team. But once we are OUT of the EU. Thats That. Did I read that Keir Starmer would NOT enter the EU if he even wins next time. Like him already.


----------



## rottieboys

Jesthar said:


> Well, at least he's still holding true to his personal principles, then...
> 
> Agreed. The real question is, what's best for whom?


The trouble is. He cannot satisfied everyone....


----------



## rona

Oh crikey.........even more possible trouble brewing for Cummings


----------



## rottieboys

MollySmith said:


> If 'a lot of people' support him, then I might well come over as sarcastic but when it's arguably evidenced that he has very few supporters, I could be genuine.


Well, How did he win the general Election. I think Boris is very popular man. Not if you wanted to vote for someone else. Bad Luck. Perhaps next time.


----------



## rottieboys

kimthecat said:


> Yes , its all on Twitter, I don't give a rat's arse ,myself but think its about time we moved on.


Same here..But they will not give it a rest.


----------



## rottieboys

Calvine said:


> Pahahahaha!


Me and all the others who want to get out of the EU..


----------



## rottieboys

rona said:


> Oh crikey.........even more possible trouble brewing for Cummings


What lies are they thinking about now...Daily Mirror used it front page some time back When Piers Morgan was the editor.Getting our soldiers in trouble.. Rubbish.


----------



## rottieboys

Dave S said:


> Do they still support him though, after this?


Support him or not he has done a great job for Sir Kier Starmer and Labour.[/QUOTE]
Another 5 years..Who cares about them.


----------



## rottieboys

rona said:


> It's not about Cummings though is it?
> 
> It's about trust.


They will keep on lying.


----------



## PFModerator

This thread is getting rather heated and personal. We have 2 options.
If comments are upsetting you and you feel they are unnacceptable report them.
If you are finding the thread uncomfortable for whatever reason take a breather, participation is optional !
Or a 3rd option, we could close the thread which I'm happy to do.


----------



## rottieboys

All the trouble we had with the remain Demonstrating


MollySmith said:


> Morning Mr Cummings, lovely to have you on PF. How is Boris this morning?
> 
> btw, you are famous for being in the minority...
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...mps-with-180000-emails-about-dominic-cummings
> 
> Even your old chum Theresa May said so...
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...minic-cummings-did-not-abide-spirit-lockdown/


I do not trust The Guardian . As for Theresa May. She was a true Brexit. All the lies she did...Would of sold us down the river. Funny about The Guardian and the Daily Mirror being a strong Labour paper. Yes the poles in other papers are for Boris.


----------



## rona

rottieboys said:


> All the trouble we had with the remain Demonstrating
> 
> I do not trust The Guardian . As for Theresa May. She was a true Brexit. All the lies she did...Would of sold us down the river. Funny about The Guardian and the Daily Mirror being a strong Labour paper. Yes the poles in other papers are for Boris.


This isn't a Brexit thread. It's got nothing to do with Brexit.


----------



## rona

rottieboys said:


> What lies are they thinking about now...Daily Mirror used it front page some time back When Piers Morgan was the editor.Getting our soldiers in trouble.. Rubbish.


Why are they lies when he admitted himself to doing what he was accused of?
What did the DM and piers have front page?

The new news is that he supposedly owns the house he bolted to but it hasn't planning permission and he pays no council tax on it. Not sure of the validity of this yet though


----------



## rottieboys

rona said:


> This isn't a Brexit thread. It's got nothing to do with Brexit.


Really...Don n't make me laugh.


----------



## rona

rottieboys said:


> Really...Don n't make me laugh.


Why would you think it is?

I'm fully behind Brexit, but can still think what Cummings did is a kick in the teeth for all those that died, have been ill, cannot see family and even more so,a ruddy insult to all those doctors and nurses who have borne the brunt of this


----------



## rottieboys

rona said:


> Why are they lies when he admitted himself to doing what he was accused of?
> What did the DM and piers have front page?
> 
> The new news is that he supposedly owns the house he bolted to but it hasn't planning permission and he pays no council tax on it. Not sure of the validity of this yet though


They are out to get him....Thats the press. Again, Please google Piers Morgans got the sack From The Daily Mirror.. I believe they escorted out the building. Daily Mirror printed the lies .


----------



## rottieboys

rona said:


> Why would you think it is?
> 
> I'm fully behind Brexit, but can still think what Cummings did is a kick in the teeth for all those that died, have been ill, cannot see family and even more so,a ruddy insult to all those doctors and nurses who have borne the brunt of this


He did not bring the virus into our country.


----------



## rona

rottieboys said:


> They are out to get him....Thats the press. Again, Please google Piers Morgans got the sack From The Daily Mirror.. I believe they escorted out the building. Daily Mirror printed the lies .


I don't read papers,I've no idea and no desire to do so. I just listened to what Cummings said and was appalled


----------



## rona

rottieboys said:


> He did not bring the virus into our country.


No, but he could well have spread it


----------



## rottieboys

rona said:


> Why are they lies when he admitted himself to doing what he was accused of?
> What did the DM and piers have front page?
> 
> The new news is that he supposedly owns the house he bolted to but it hasn't planning permission and he pays no council tax on it. Not sure of the validity of this yet though


It belongs to his family.


----------



## rottieboys

rona said:


> No, but he could well have spread it


I like the word COULD.


----------



## rona

rottieboys said:


> It belongs to his family.


One of which is him, we'll see as time goes on. Still the report of no planning and no council tax


----------



## rona

rottieboys said:


> I like the word COULD.


Wow just wow


----------



## rottieboys

I think the public will see through this... The support for him will get stronger. Its all about bringing him down.. We all know why..


----------



## rottieboys

Boris, should do something about the press regulation. Plus I think we should get rid of the bias BBC.


----------



## Jesthar

rottieboys said:


> The trouble is. He cannot satisfied everyone....


True enough. But one can at least be fair and apply the same standards to all.



rottieboys said:


> Well, How did he win the general Election. I think Boris is very popular man. Not if you wanted to vote for someone else. Bad Luck. Perhaps next time.


Boris won the election the same way Trump did - appealing to the lowest common denominators, catchy but meaningless soundbites and slogans, pushing personality not policies, and being up against a relatively unappealing opposition leader. Yes, this is a simplistic summary, but there's no point in taking this threa further off topic.



rottieboys said:


> Really...Don n't make me laugh.


In what way is this about Brexit? Brexit had been barely mentioned in this thread except in passing until you brought it up... 

This is about a man who played a big part in writing and promoting the Covid-19 lockdown rules breaking some of the most important ones for reasons that are dubious at best, and theninstead of saying "I screwed up, I'm sorry, here's a big donation to some appropriate charities" (which would probably have see the whole thing blow over in a week or so) offers excuses for that behaviour that are basically in the same league as "My goldfish ate my homework" and expecting people to go "Oh, that's OK then!"

Can you genuinely not see why people of all political persuasions who have been conscientiously following the lockdown rules to protect themselves and others, despite personal tragedy, hardship and far more difficult circumstances than Mr Cummings found himself in, might just be a _bit_ upset that he can seemingly do as he pleases with no consequences?


----------



## rona

rottieboys said:


> I think the public will see through this... The support for him will get stronger. Its all about bringing him down.. We all know why..


Why? genuinely why?

He broke the lockdown, pure and simple. I can't believe you support that. I know some want to move on from it but you actively seem to support him


----------



## lullabydream

Jesthar said:


> True enough. But one can at least be fair and apply the same standards to all.
> 
> Boris won the election the same way Trump did - appealing to the lowest common denominators, catchy but meaningless soundbites and slogans, pushing personality not policies, and being up against a relatively unappealing opposition leader. Yes, this is a simplistic summary, but there's no point in taking this threa further off topic.
> 
> In what way is this about Brexit? Brexit had been barely mentioned in this thread except in passing until you brought it up...
> 
> This is about a man who played a big part in writing and promoting the Covid-19 lockdown rules breaking some of the most important ones for reasons that are dubious at best, and theninstead of saying "I screwed up, I'm sorry, here's a big donation to some appropriate charities" (which would probably have see the whole thing blow over in a week or so) offers excuses for that behaviour that are basically in the same league as "My goldfish ate my homework" and expecting people to go "Oh, that's OK then!"
> 
> Can you genuinely not see why people of all political persuasions who have been conscientiously following the lockdown rules to protect themselves and others, despite personal tragedy, hardship and far more difficult circumstances than Mr Cummings found himself in, might just be a _bit_ upset that he can seemingly do as he pleases with no consequences?


Absolutely agree with all you say.. Was getting totally confused why it was becoming Brexit, the slurs of remainders, and brexiteers being thrown about when people weren't really discussing this as political per se, but about how a nation as a whole was coping with a pandemic and how one man who was part and parcel of the rules we have been set, on part more as a moral obligation couldn't do it himself.


----------



## rottieboys

rona said:


> Why? genuinely why?
> 
> He broke the lockdown, pure and simple. I can't believe you support that. I know some want to move on from it but you actively seem to support him


Yes I do. Alright he made a mistake, but so did other people do.. This does not mean we have to persecute him. Key his car. Throw eggs at him. Go after his mum and dad.... Make up lies... and so on....


----------



## rottieboys

rona said:


> Why? genuinely why?
> 
> He broke the lockdown, pure and simple. I can't believe you support that. I know some want to move on from it but you actively seem to support him


If you cannot see what is happening here. Now the so call leftie press are after council tax and planning permission.


----------



## rottieboys

rona said:


> This isn't a Brexit thread. It's got nothing to do with Brexit.


I think it is...The leftie want us to extend for another 2 years...That is what its really about. D C is going to make sure we are OUT this year...That is what a Marjority vote for... They are trying to stop it.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rottieboys said:


> Yes I do. Alright he made a mistake, but so did other people do.. This does not mean we have to persecute him. Key his car. Throw eggs at him. Go after his mum and dad.... Make up lies... and so on....


A mistake! but he broke the rules that he wrote, he knew what they were and still he broke them and we were suppose to stick to.


----------



## rona

rottieboys said:


> Yes I do. Alright he made a mistake, but so did other people do.. This does not mean we have to persecute him. Key his car. Throw eggs at him. Go after his mum and dad.... Make up lies... and so on....


It's not about him per say, it's about trust. He didn't even think he'd done anything wrong, did not apologise and Boris just enables him. It's more about Boris to me, Cummings is irrelevant other than it was him that did it.

I truly wanted Boris to succeed, believed in him even. You only have to go to the Brexit thread to see how much faith I had in him. I feel betrayed. Nothing to do with the press, nothing to do with Brexit


----------



## Happy Paws2

rottieboys said:


> I think the public will see through this... The support for him will get stronger. Its all about bringing him down.. *We all know why.*.


I know why he broke his own rules, so he should go.


----------



## rottieboys

You are never going to convince me, all this bashing is all about he broke the lockdown rules....


----------



## rona

rottieboys said:


> I think it is...The leftie want us to extend for another 2 years...That is what its really about. D C is going to make sure we are OUT this year...That is what a Marjority vote for... They are trying to stop it.


I don't see it myself. I know the press had it in for Cummings, don't know why as I never read the garbage, but this is very different. All the facts came straight out of his own mouth.........can't you see that?


----------



## Pawscrossed

rottieboys said:


> Well, How did he win the general Election. I think Boris is very popular man. Not if you wanted to vote for someone else. Bad Luck. Perhaps next time.


really?!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ting-yougov-opinion-poll-survey-a9511611.html


----------



## Jesthar

rottieboys said:


> You are never going to convince me, all this bashing is all about he broke the lockdown rules....


Correct, all this bashing IS about him breaking the lockdown rules. I'd never really given much thought to him beforehand.


----------



## rottieboys

Happy Paws2 said:


> I know why he broke his own rules, so he should go.


Good for Boris...Standing by him....


----------



## Pawscrossed

rottieboys said:


> You are never going to convince me, all this bashing is all about he broke the lockdown rules....


he was on television, he said so! Why are you trying too convince us?! You're bashing everyone here!


----------



## rottieboys

Pawscrossed said:


> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ting-yougov-opinion-poll-survey-a9511611.html


Yes , Those poles mean nothing. I remember they did a pole about staying in the EU...I think it was on LBC, people phoning up and say they were fixed. People voting all over the world... People with false names... People voting constantly just holding the vote again button... False news..


----------



## rottieboys

Pawscrossed said:


> he was on television, he said so! Why are you trying too convince us?! You're bashing everyone here!


No I am not. I am putting my opinion and why I think this is totally not fair.


----------



## Pawscrossed

rottieboys said:


> Yes , Those poles mean nothing. I remember they did a pole about staying in the EU...I think it was on LBC, people phoning up and say they were fixed. People voting all over the world... People with false names... People voting constantly just holding the vote again button... False news..


Oh dear, oh dear. Did you even bother to click on this link? I did look at the Daily Mail as you asked everyone to do. I didn't learn a thing but I looked.


----------



## lullabydream

Happy Paws2 said:


> I know why he broke his own rules, so he should go.


As @rona says trust has been broken. People's way of living has been totally and utterly destroyed. We are living in a pandemic. It's serious..

If people have lost trust to follow guidelines now, with things reopening it could be come a lot worse. I don't think when the scientists at the daily briefings are stating the death rates, the high positives and those being admitted to hospital would be emphasising this point so much, if Cummings hadn't done what he had done. They are trying to make people understand we are still in a pandemic, it's still very much in some ways unknown territory


----------



## Pawscrossed

Out... this is nonsensical


----------



## rottieboys

Why should it be one sided. People can think what they like.


----------



## rona

rottieboys said:


> Yes , Those poles mean nothing. I remember they did a pole about staying in the EU...I think it was on LBC, people phoning up and say they were fixed. People voting all over the world... People with false names... People voting constantly just holding the vote again button... False news..


Did you actually look at the poll?


----------



## Pawscrossed

rottieboys said:


> Why should it be one sided. People can think what they like.


Maybes with some editing and reasonable debate! Then becomes a conversation! This is a stream of consciousnesses with no respect or thought to the people who have died or suffering because of the actions by your beloved Boris and the papers you like to read.


----------



## rona

Pawscrossed said:


> Maybes with some editing and reasonable debate! Then becomes a conversation! This is a stream of consciousnesses with no respect or thought to the people who have died or suffering because of the actions by your beloved Boris and the papers you like to read.


Thought you were out?


----------



## rottieboys

lullabydream said:


> As @rona says trust has been broken. People's way of living has been totally and utterly destroyed. We are living in a pandemic. It's serious..
> 
> If people have lost trust to follow guidelines now, with things reopening it could be come a lot worse. I don't think when the scientists at the daily briefings are stating the death rates, the high positives and those being admitted to hospital would be emphasising this point so much, if Cummings hadn't done what he had done. They are trying to make people understand we are still in a pandemic, it's still very much in some ways unknown territory


You are absolutely right... We are in a pandemic. What he did was wrong. But he explained why he did it.. He has not killed anyone.We should listen to the 5 oclock briefing. Not the same old questions...again and again..Each one of the press are trying to get one over on him...Boris said it is oven.. we need to get on this this awful virus.Who would it be if he goes..Who will be the next one....They start to target at...


----------



## Pawscrossed

Delt4e. I have a life!


----------



## Pawscrossed

rona said:


> Thought you were out?


it's infectious


----------



## rottieboys

Pawscrossed said:


> Maybes with some editing and reasonable debate! Then becomes a conversation! This is a stream of consciousnesses with no respect or thought to the people who have died or suffering because of the actions by your beloved Boris and the papers you like to read.


My beloved Boris..... He won get over it.


----------



## Pawscrossed

rottieboys said:


> My beloved Boris..... He won get over it.


I did a long time ago. Now we see how useless he is.

maybe I voted for him.


----------



## rona

Pawscrossed said:


> I did a long time ago. Now we see how useless he is.
> 
> maybe I voted for him.


I did vote for him. First time in my life I thought there was someone worth voting for. Mug me eh.........look how he's repaid my trust in him


----------



## rona

Anyway, we won't have to worry much longer the way the idiots are behaving at the beaches and on the streets of London and other big cities.
I'm staying firmly away from as many people as I can until all the morons have caught it and either died or recovered
Our poor NHS are going to be busy again in about 2 weeks time


----------



## rottieboys

Pawscrossed said:


> Delt4e. I have a life!


Am I reading this right.....Lets try and work out what you are saying. He has omitted he did wrong. He explained Why... Some might think this was wrong. He did 1 hour and 20 minutes interview. Each question was the same as the one before. Now we are now after his head so to speak..Blockade his home...Key his car... go to his parents home. Forget about the 2 meter rule when the press wanted to stick a camera in his face. And it still go and on...


----------



## rottieboys

rona said:


> Anyway, we won't have to worry much longer the way the idiots are behaving at the beaches and on the streets of London and other big cities.
> I'm staying firmly away from as many people as I can until all the morons have caught it and either died or recovered
> Our poor NHS are going to be busy again in about 2 weeks time


Listen, I have had LBC on..People were moaning about the lockdown...People are moaning about the 2 meters rule..They want 1 meter.... People over 70 were complaining about being stuck inside... The mentally ill are also suffering... He had to think about the abuse going on in houses Violent partners, Children also suffering... I would hate to be a prime minster at this time.. What ever he does is wrong.


----------



## rona

rottieboys said:


> Listen, I have had LBC on..People were moaning about the lockdown...People are moaning about the 2 meters rule..They want 1 meter.... People over 70 were complaining about being stuck inside... The mentally ill are also suffering... He had to think about the abuse going on in houses Violent partners, Children also suffering... I would hate to be a prime minster at this time.. What ever he does is wrong.


I'm talking about the idiots. I did not refer it back to anyone


----------



## rottieboys

rona said:


> I did vote for him. First time in my life I thought there was someone worth voting for. Mug me eh.........look how he's repaid my trust in him


Give him time...


----------



## lullabydream

rottieboys said:


> But he explained why he did it


All I saw was a pathetic rambling of excuses why he did it.. Then laughing walking away.. Yeah for someone who guides us well the PM.. He was rather had the weirdest of excuses.. That went against the guidance that was set out. He extrapolated different the clause set out.. If the whole country was doing similiar we wouldn't be in the position we are today.


----------



## rona

rottieboys said:


> Give him time...


But this isn't the only thing. He's already gone back on supporting our Farmers. He promised not to bring in food that was below our standards. Well that was a load of tosh


----------



## rottieboys

rona said:


> Did you actually look at the poll?


Of course I did not.. I looked on the daily express poles Depend on what paper you read.


----------



## rottieboys

Pawscrossed said:


> I did a long time ago. Now we see how useless he is.
> 
> maybe I voted for him.


A lot of people did....


----------



## rona

rottieboys said:


> Of course I did not.. I looked on the daily express poles Depend on what paper you read.


Well it showed the Conservatives still in front however, this is the reasoning behind it 
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politic...ominic-cummings-lockdown-travels-changed-publ

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/boris-johnson-approval-rating


----------



## Sandysmum

DC could have stopped a lot of the backlash against him by simply admitting he broke the rules, saying sorry, and offering his resignation.Just offering to resign probably would have been enough to satisfy most of us. Boris didn't have to accept if there is a real reason for DC to stay in his position, but the offer would have been something. 

Personally I think he should have been sacked, it's taking so much time away from the real problem right now, how to come out of lockdown safely,


----------



## MollySmith

rona said:


> I did vote for him. First time in my life I thought there was someone worth voting for. Mug me eh.........look how he's repaid my trust in him


Genuinely not a mug, we all vote for different reasons but it's always based on the policies and image, he has let a lot of people down and despite our differences over politics, I really hoped he'd prove naysayers like me wrong.

Hope you're okay, it went a bit crazy here. @Happy Paws2 you alright too?


----------



## Happy Paws2

MollySmith said:


> Happy Paws2[/USER] you alright too?


Yes no problem here .....we are all entitled to our own views, it would be a dull world if we all agreed.


----------



## rona

MollySmith said:


> Genuinely not a mug, we all vote for different reasons but it's always based on the policies and image, he has let a lot of people down and despite our differences over politics, I really hoped he'd prove naysayers like me wrong.
> 
> Hope you're okay, it went a bit crazy here. @Happy Paws2 you alright too?


Me I'm tough as old boots 
I think I'm upset more about this for my friend. He's lost so much support through this. I didn't see him for 3 weeks and then was made to feel guilty because he got worse and I had to go there 2-3 times a week. I'm his only support, he has no family. I'm there now every day, not going in but walking the dog, taking shopping and trying to keep his spirits up. 
Then there's Cummings who goes on a jolly 

Thanks for asking anyway 

HappyPaws2 I'm not sure how tough she is, particularly these days. Hope she's ok, taken a bit of a hammering recently on the forum


----------



## Pawscrossed

rottieboys said:


> A lot of people did....


I am glad they did, he and his party have nowhere to hide.

Families are losing loved ones, we are in a pandemic! It is not a competition it is about lives and how he is not managing this crisis. The election is history. It is what he is or isn't doing now. Get over it. Yes let's look at now. What has he done that's any good.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> Me I'm tough as old boots
> I think I'm upset more about this for my friend. He's lost so much support through this. I didn't see him for 3 weeks and then was made to feel guilty because he got worse and I had to go there 2-3 times a week. I'm his only support, he has no family. I'm there now every day, not going in but walking the dog, taking shopping and trying to keep his spirits up.
> Then there's Cummings who goes on a jolly
> 
> Thanks for asking anyway
> 
> HappyPaws2 I'm not sure how tough she is, particularly these days. Hope she's ok, taken a bit of a hammering recently on the forum


Me, I'm like you tough as old boots, when you get to my age most things are like water off a ducks back, I might sulk for a few seconds but that all.


----------



## MollySmith

Happy Paws2 said:


> Yes no problem here .....we are all entitled to our own views, it would be a dull world if we all agreed.


good, yes it would  take care of yourself 



rona said:


> Me I'm tough as old boots
> I think I'm upset more about this for my friend. He's lost so much support through this. I didn't see him for 3 weeks and then was made to feel guilty because he got worse and I had to go there 2-3 times a week. I'm his only support, he has no family. I'm there now every day, not going in but walking the dog, taking shopping and trying to keep his spirits up.
> Then there's Cummings who goes on a jolly
> 
> Thanks for asking anyway
> 
> HappyPaws2 I'm not sure how tough she is, particularly these days. Hope she's ok, taken a bit of a hammering recently on the forum


Yup I can appreciate your worries. A lot of us have very personal reasons for getting upset however tough we are, and I know you are, and I immediately think of your friend.

A friend has vasculitis and she's been completely on her own too. I ended up going to hers this afternoon and left her a pot of of gladiolus and we waved from afar whilst talking on mobiles. It's all very unfair but we are being very mindful of our friends and that's the best we can do and hope others do the same.


----------



## MollySmith

Happy Paws2 said:


> Me, I'm like you tough as old boots, when you get to my age most things are like water off a ducks back, I might sulk for a few seconds but that all.


yup me too. TBF, I'm of an age where I have to remember where I left my glasses!

I promise I did see my friend from afar and didn't spend 3 hours* going around my house looking for them so I could conjure up a pointless reply to whatever high jinks happened in my absence.

*30 minutes to find my glasses...


----------



## Happy Paws2

I sometimes need to use a stick round the house and most of the time trying to remember where put.


----------



## mrs phas

today is my birthday
apart from matt, i havent seen a single child, relative or friend
no cards and no presents, and believe me, we are a giving bunch of loonies
I know im not the only one to have had a 'different' birthday during ths time
but to come here (PF) my release and safe hiding place from the world
to be told that my fears and staying away from the world is because
i hate BJ ( i dont know the man personally and i dont waste my time on such a negative emotion)
Ive got the hump because its, assumed, i voted for the wrong person
Ive also got another hump because its, again assumed, im a remainer
and various other anti government views I have
has made me feel, and I say this literally, sick to the stomach

ive done 10 weeks of isolation, im sure I'll do more, as I cant believe that come monday c-19 will just disapear in a puff of wind, and, everyone will be safe
otherwise what exactly was the point?
I might as well have been going round hugging and kissing people instead


----------



## kimthecat

@mrs phas 

Happy Birthday !


----------



## MollySmith

mrs phas said:


> today is my birthday
> apart from matt, i havent seen a single child, relative or friend
> no cards and no presents, and believe me, we are a giving bunch of loonies
> I know im not the only one to have had a 'different' birthday during ths time
> but to come here (PF) my release and safe hiding place from the world
> to be told that my fears and staying away from the world is because
> i hate BJ ( i dont know the man personally and i dont waste my time on such a negative emotion)
> Ive got the hump because its, assumed, i voted for the wrong person
> Ive also got another hump because its, again assumed, im a remainer
> and various other anti government views I have
> has made me feel, and I say this literally, sick to the stomach
> 
> ive done 10 weeks of isolation, im sure I'll do more, as I cant believe that come monday c-19 will just disapear in a puff of wind, and, everyone will be safe
> otherwise what exactly was the point?
> I might as well have been going round hugging and kissing people instead


May I wish you a peaceful Birthday and a socially distancing PF hug from me and the dog.

And to say I agree with everything you've said. There are many taking this too lightly, Another Matt, the very wise Matt Haig, author of Notes On A Nervous Planet said recently that it's no less infectious tomorrow than it was before. It does seem hopeless but in the limited time I'm having on social media, many people feel the same as you and I. Let's hope our efforts are not in vain. Take care lovely.


----------



## O2.0

rottieboys said:


> He has not killed anyone.


Damn, that's setting the bar rather low don't you think?

And anyway, if he infected someone while out gallivanting while symptomatic with Covid-19, he may indeed have indirectly killed someone.

Meanwhile here in the US, the country is falling apart. I'm frustrated and angry, but mostly desperately sad. People need to be heard. And people in positions of power need to stop abusing that power.


----------



## mrs phas

kimthecat said:


> @mrs phas
> 
> Happy Birthday !





MollySmith said:


> May I wish you a peaceful Birthday and a socially distancing PF hug from me and the dog.
> 
> And to say I agree with everything you've said. There are many taking this too lightly, Another Matt, the very wise Matt Haig, author of Notes On A Nervous Planet said recently that it's no less infectious tomorrow than it was before. It does seem hopeless but in the limited time I'm having on social media, many people feel the same as you and I. Let's hope our efforts are not in vain. Take care lovely.


thank you
I promise i didnt write the post as a pity party
im just annoyed, and yes, upset, that those of us who have abided by the 'guidelines' and are skeptical and worried about the speed it is all being undone, are having the finger pointed at us as being all about hating the government and not about genuine fear.
My heart goes out to ALL those whove lost someone to this insidious disease,
ALL of those fighting to keep others alive or some semblance of normal in this world, theyre putting our lives and needs above their own
and
ALL of us who have kept ourselves safe, out of hospital, out of the morgue, and welcoming each new day

And that has NOTHING to do with politics whatsoever


----------



## MollySmith

mrs phas said:


> thank you
> I promise i didnt write the post as a pity party
> im just annoyed, and yes, upset, that those of us who have abided by the 'guidelines' and are skeptical and worried about the speed it is all being undone, are having the finger pointed at us as being all about hating the government and not about genuine fear.
> My heart goes out to ALL those whove lost someone to this insidious disease,
> ALL of those fighting to keep others alive or some semblance of normal in this world, theyre putting our lives and needs above their own
> and
> ALL of us who have kept ourselves safe, out of hospital, out of the morgue, and welcoming each new day
> 
> And that has NOTHING to do with politics whatsoever


I didn't think you did  but it would be okay if you did. My birthday was at the start of lockdown and very weird.

Well said - it's people isn't it? Lives lost, turned upside down and being unable to grieve and also the miracle of human kindness. It's out there and it's here too amongst the noise.


----------



## Calvine

Jesthar said:


> Correct, all this bashing IS about him breaking the lockdown rules. I'd never really given much thought to him beforehand.


I'd hardly heard of him . . . .maybe once (in passing, so to speak).


----------



## Calvine

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/news...ay-at-second-home/ar-BB14QjI1?ocid=spartandhp
I realise that this thread is based originally on DC's hypocritical actions, and apologies if someone posted this already. Can this be true?


----------



## Calvine

Happy BIrthday @mrs phas! Hope you managed to have a lovely day.


----------



## rona

Calvine said:


> https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/news...ay-at-second-home/ar-BB14QjI1?ocid=spartandhp
> I realise that this thread is based originally on DC's hypocritical actions, and apologies if someone posted this already. Can this be true?


I saw it but I didn't want to add fuel


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> I saw it but I didn't want to add fuel


What? You reckon I've opened a can of worms?


----------



## rona

Calvine said:


> What? You reckon I've opened a can of worms?


Shh, you might get away with it


----------



## MollySmith

rona said:


> I saw it but I didn't want to add fuel





Calvine said:


> What? You reckon I've opened a can of worms?


Me too along with her brother having permission to exercise in the grounds of Buckingham Palace. You may wish to go forth with tin hat.


----------



## Sandysmum

Hope you had a good birthday mrs phas


----------



## Happy Paws2

mrs phas said:


> today is my birthday


*Happy belated birthday!*


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> Depends on who you follow, like any forum or platform, there is user bias.


Just a thought for anyone who is thinking of checking Twitter out. You can check out the Trends which appear on the main page which gives you a idea of whats happening and peoples thoughts on the subject.


----------



## rottieboys

Pawscrossed said:


> I am glad they did, he and his party have nowhere to hide.
> 
> Families are losing loved ones, we are in a pandemic! It is not a competition it is about lives and how he is not managing this crisis. The election is history. It is what he is or isn't doing now. Get over it. Yes let's look at now. What has he done that's any good.


I think you can only see that he did n't sack DC...The money they are supporting everyone. Do you think that they should not let anyone out at all. Keep down until The R has gone down...


----------



## rottieboys

O2.0 said:


> Damn, that's setting the bar rather low don't you think?
> 
> And anyway, if he infected someone while out gallivanting while symptomatic with Covid-19, he may indeed have indirectly killed someone.
> 
> I am speaking the truth. He, himself did not infected anyone... But. He could of done if his car needed help such as break down..He could of done if he needed petrol. But he didn't 't. He could of done if he had an a accident. All this...But he did n't.... He put his family in isolated. for so many days. I can not get my head round, Why this just keeps going on and on .
> 
> Meanwhile here in the US, the country is falling apart. I'm frustrated and angry, but mostly desperately sad. People need to be heard. And people in positions of power need to stop abusing that power.


----------



## rona

rottieboys said:


> I think you can only see that he did n't sack DC...The money they are supporting everyone. Do you think that they should not let anyone out at all. Keep down until The R has gone down...


Rishi is the star in all this. How he threw this all together in such short order and just weeks after taking the job is truly stunning.
Also, in the updates, he seems to be the only one that can answer a question with a proper answer


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> Just a thought for anyone who is thinking of checking Twitter out. You can check out the Trends which appear on the main page which gives you a idea of whats happening and peoples thoughts on the subject.


Good point. There is also a main thread for Covid-19 here which can be followed by country or global
https://twitter.com/explore/tabs/covid-19

And if anyone wants to mute key words then this is very helpful - I use Twitter a lot for social awareness and business and sometimes it's a bit too much so this recently discovery has been really useful.

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-to-mute-words-on-twitter?r=US&IR=T


----------



## MollySmith

rottieboys said:


> I think you can only see that he did n't sack DC...The money they are supporting everyone. Do you think that they should not let anyone out at all. Keep down until The R has gone down...


It's an incredibly difficult decision to make isn't it?

We do have to get the economy going - I'm reading The Big Issue this morning and a parliamentary committee reports that £100m needs to be poured into long-term housing to prevent people returning to the streets or being made homeless as a result of this pandemic, and the District Councils Network says that 500,000 people could be facing economic ruin and has identified 486,242 households who will be spending more than half their earnings on private rent and at risk of homelessness including the key workers some of us may have been clapping. (Issue 1411 big issue.com if anyone wants to subscribe) When I read that, the decisions about lockdown seem a little more logical but I feel that the flocking to the coast and mass gatherings has undermined perhaps what the government may have sought to do but didn't communicate well - my personal opinion about the communication.

The trouble I have is that the virus is no less infectious than it was in March and we still have no cure or vaccine. Waiting until the R is safer across the country than in some places only (I _think_ I'm right in saying it's not countrywide under 1 - I could be wrong as I haven't checked the link today) seems wise if we are allowed to travel as far as we like since it's the travel restrictions lift that has allowed people to congregate on beaches and the virus can spread. Maybe restricted travel might do that? It's very easy to say sat in the safety of my home office raising invoices knowing I'll be paid.

But you have no evidence that Cummings didn't infect anyone, do you? Actual scientific, track and trace results not conjecture from the papers? I don't think Cummings himself said that. Nobody knows if we infect anyone which is the entire point of staying at home, the rule set out at the time which he broke.

It strikes me that we have two conversations on here, Cummings which is what the thread was created for and Covid-19 and the government which is a bit of a digression. @Pawscrossed is right to comment on Cummings but it's easy to digress!


----------



## O2.0

rottieboys said:


> I am speaking the truth. He, himself did not infected anyone... But. He could of done if his car needed help such as break down..He could of done if he needed petrol. But he didn't 't. He could of done if he had an a accident. All this...But he did n't.... He put his family in isolated. for so many days. I can not get my head round, Why this just keeps going on and on .


How do you know he didn't spread covid-19? I don't know how you can be so sure?
And the whole point is, he *could* have because of his irresponsible behavior - behavior that he told the rest of the country to NOT do, yet it was okay for him to do it. Don't do as I do, do as I tell you. Seems hypocritical at best, irresponsible, and yes, potentially deadly if as a result of his traveling about while sick resulted in other people getting sick.


----------



## Happy Paws2

O2.0 said:


> How do you know he didn't spread covid-19? I don't know how you can be so sure?
> And the whole point is, he *could* have because of his irresponsible behavior - behavior that he told the rest of the country to NOT do, yet it was okay for him to do it. Don't do as I do, do as I tell you. Seems hypocritical at best, irresponsible, and yes, potentially deadly if as a result of his traveling about while sick resulted in other people getting sick.


I couldn't agree more, he wrote the rules and then broke them, we were told to stay at home if we thought anyone in our household had the virus not drive round the countryside looking for help.


----------



## MilleD

rona said:


> Rishi is the star in all this. How he threw this all together in such short order and just weeks after taking the job is truly stunning.
> Also, in the updates, he seems to be the only one that can answer a question with a proper answer


I agree he has been really good.


----------



## MilleD

Just a little satire from the Daily Mash today:

*16 injured in this weekend's eye tests*
1st June 2020








*SIXTEEN Britons have injured themselves this weekend in complications relating to the new eye-testing system, police have confirmed. *

Following the relaxation of lockdown, thousands of motorists have rushed to the roads to self-administer the new eye tests, so far resulting in 16 injuries.

Optician Helen Archer said: "This is a 1,600 per cent increase on the previous number of injuries while taking optometric exams, which was one in 40 years.

"It's understandable that after ten weeks without an eye-test Brits are desperate to check their peepers but we fear that the new eye tests, which involve getting in your car and driving roughly 60 miles to a local beauty spot, have flaws.

"One man worried he may need glasses drove at 115mph along the M6 with his head out the side window to simulate that bit where the optician blows air in your eye. Which is all according to government guidelines."

A Government spokesman said: "This is utter nonsense. The new deregulated exams are foolproof.

"Many of those injured had failed to take a four-year-old child with them in the back seat to warn of possible dangers. They've only themselves to blame."


----------



## shadowmare

rona said:


> Rishi is the star in all this. How he threw this all together in such short order and just weeks after taking the job is truly stunning.
> Also, in the updates, he seems to be the only one that can answer a question with a proper answer


Except for the time he was one of the puppets...


----------



## MollySmith

shadowmare said:


> Except for the time he was one of the puppets...
> View attachment 441097
> 
> View attachment 441098


and supported Cummings on Twitter but seems to be the best of a bad lot in my view.


----------



## MilleD

shadowmare said:


> Except for the time he was one of the puppets...
> View attachment 441097
> 
> View attachment 441098


It wouldn't look good for unity at the top if he did anything else really.


----------



## rona

Had an email from my MP. It's just a copy of what he already has on his website  Tried to tell me I was influenced by the press :Banghead
I informed him that it was Cummings himself that had annoyed me.
I reiterated my disgust at this and lowering of imported food standards and the effect it has had on how I see the Conservative party


----------



## Snoringbear

I didn't vote for Boris. But in the current climate, it seems more practical to get onboard with the government's approach and handling of the crisis. From what I've seen, political point scoring has been kept out of it for the large part, although I'm sure this will occur at the post mortem stage once things subside. Questions have been asked, which is fine, but the issue is when things become derailed. This happened with the Cummings incident. I don't see objection to his behaviour as a specifically political issue (employment aside), rather one of moral decency and the adherence to rules. Furthermore, it appears to have dampened the public's belief in the government, although any divergence form the regulations is more down to the individual's interpretation and thoughts on that.


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> Had an email from my MP. It's just a copy of what he already has on his website  *Tried to tell me I was influenced by the press* :Banghead
> I informed him that it was Cummings himself that had annoyed me.
> I reiterated my disgust at this and lowering of imported food standards and the effect it has had on how I see the Conservative party


Wait a minute - your own MP just tried to Gaslight you?!? :Wideyed


----------



## mrs phas

Jesthar said:


> Wait a minute - your own MP just tried to Gaslight you?!? :Wideyed


ive never heard that term before
so obvs i went and looked it up
and foundvthat its just a nicer term for 
a type of mental abuse
thats horrible!


----------



## MollySmith

rona said:


> Had an email from my MP. It's just a copy of what he already has on his website  Tried to tell me I was influenced by the press :Banghead
> I informed him that it was Cummings himself that had annoyed me.
> I reiterated my disgust at this and lowering of imported food standards and the effect it has had on how I see the Conservative party


That's so disappointing. Your view matters. It's too easy to blame the press and assumes none of us are capable of free thought.


----------



## Pawscrossed

rottieboys said:


> *I think you can only see that he did n't sack DC*...The money they are supporting everyone. Do you think that they should not let anyone out at all. Keep down until The R has gone down...


This is the talking point on this thread . The topic of going out and R numbers seems to be the discussion on another thread?

Belated Happy Birthday @mrs phas


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> I agree he has been really good.


He's so cute too.


----------



## Calvine

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...gs-from-sex-discrimination-case-boris-johnson
I_'_m sure this is irrelevant, but, anyway, it's got DC's name in it, so I thought, ''Why not?''


----------



## kirksandallchins

I wonder if it is coincidence the government have started lifting restrictions now. Not just slowly but from yesterday schools have re-opened, more shops and retail have been allowed to open and those sheilding are allowed to leave their houses.

Now the news and current affairs shows are full of reports about the pros and cons of easing the lockdown, and the trip to Durham is old news


----------



## mrs phas

A big thank you to all of you who took time out of your busy lives to wish me a happy birthday
I am humbled xx


----------



## Jesthar

Just in case people missed it, an esitmated 17+ million people now have no voting representation in parliament after Remote Voting was scrapped and their MPs cannot physically attend parliament to vote because their medical advice is to stay home.

Sorry for the large image, computer users - Twitter just does that...


----------



## MollySmith

I guess Boris was too busy with Dominic to reply to the offer of collaboration around the opening of schools? Published today after PMQs in which Starmer said he had received no reply. I reiterate that I'm not a member of this party but I post as I find it deeply troubling that there appear to be many opportunities presented to Johnson and the cabinet that have been missed from PPE to working cross party that could have the potential to save lives by making us safer - now isn't the time for dick waving politics, it's about knuckling down and getting all the help needed (in my opinion). Also worrying are the evasiveness about track and trace, Boris promised it was in place by 1 June, even Dido Harding said end of June. It's very worrying.


----------



## lullabydream

Am totally confused by the letter... 

Has Stammer spoke to actual teachers, seen the guidance....as he keeps going on about he understands school needs to go back but if he had seen the guidance that has been offered there is no chance unless schools are going to be miraculously doubled or tripled in size as the guidance is now. Teachers aren't strictly 'teaching' per se either. 

Schools are leaving it up to parents to decide with no pressure and no fines. 

Am completely shocked which teachers he's spoken to because the teaching staff I have spoken to have had nothing but thanks for doing what they are doing.. Unless it's a media story I am missing.

It feels like am reading a media story.. Schools are going back, life is back to normal, when in reality only a handful of children are 'attending' actual school


----------



## havoc

Jesthar said:


> Just in case people missed it, an esitmated 17+ million people now have no voting representation in parliament after Remote Voting was scrapped and their MPs cannot physically attend parliament to vote because their medical advice is to stay home.


Yup. All is just wonderful in the mother of all parliaments isn't it. Add on the sneaky little extension of review time from three to four weeks, wonder where that will eventually get to, and the inclusion into law that relatives cannot be used to care for a child (thank you Scummings). Now if my son and DIL who are 20 miles away get sick/taken into hospital it's illegal for me to look after my granddaughter, presumably she must be taken into care instead.

Meanwhile every Thursday night a very noisy two hour long street party takes place outside my house. I have to suppose it is allowed to continue because among the regular participants are a copper and someone who works at Addenbrookes hospital. Animal Farm had nothing on what's actually going on.


----------



## Dave S

havoc said:


> and the inclusion into law that relatives cannot be used to care for a child


I must have missed that - is that a new rule?
Where can I read about it?


----------



## havoc

I’ll have to find a link as it’s now old news. Slipped in along with the whole, people cannot go into another house and new fines etc. Very pointedly NOT retrospective - wonder why.

ETA: The way it’s put out on the ‘guidance’ is that children can only go to grandparents or relatives homes is if it’s ‘an existing arrangement’. Basically they’ve backed Scummings to the hilt, said what he did was within the rules but made it clear it now isn’t. Think it’s commonly known as closing a loophole.


----------



## lullabydream

havoc said:


> relatives cannot be used to care for a child (thank you Scummings).


Wouldnt that come under the exemption as a 'carer'
There is guidance on unpaid carers going into houses for vulnerable people. Harries originally mentioned at the beginning of this Cummings fiasco a child could be classed as 'vulnerable' but he thought he would make other excuses up for himself...

Carer terminology is used in many ways, it replaced guardian years ago in letters home to school anyway so it covers everyone and sounds nicer.


----------



## MollySmith

lullabydream said:


> Am totally confused by the letter...
> 
> Has Stammer spoke to actual teachers, seen the guidance....as he keeps going on about he understands school needs to go back but if he had seen the guidance that has been offered there is no chance unless schools are going to be miraculously doubled or tripled in size as the guidance is now. Teachers aren't strictly 'teaching' per se either.
> 
> Schools are leaving it up to parents to decide with no pressure and no fines.
> 
> Am completely shocked which teachers he's spoken to because the teaching staff I have spoken to have had nothing but thanks for doing what they are doing.. Unless it's a media story I am missing.
> 
> It feels like am reading a media story.. Schools are going back, life is back to normal, when in reality only a handful of children are 'attending' actual school


Sorry @lullabydream Difficult evening here so I've not been online. here's a link to an article on Daily Mail, I've posted the Hacked Off link as I appreciate not everyone wants to read that paper. Will reply better later as I do see your points and there may well be more background

https://hackinginquiry.org/daily-mail-covid19-teachers-unions/


----------



## havoc

lullabydream said:


> Wouldnt that come under the exemption as a 'carer'


Where children are concerned it's that specific addition of it needing to be part of an existing arrangement which is insidious. It pointedly excludes anyone from using the scummings excuse for 'emergencies'.


----------



## rona

rona said:


> The new news is that he supposedly owns the house he bolted to but it hasn't planning permission and he pays no council tax on it. Not sure of the validity of this yet though


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-52911605

"A council is investigating complaints that the property Dominic Cummings used during his lockdown trip did not have the correct planning permission"


----------



## SbanR

rona said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-52911605
> 
> "A council is investigating complaints that the property Dominic Cummings used during his lockdown trip did not have the correct planning permission"


Hmmmm, that looks like a tiny cottage


----------



## MollySmith

Someone asked what Jacob Rees-Mogg was up to (aside from belittling concerns about social distancing and voting) and I have the answer. An enchanted hat stand...

https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2018/11/16/19-things-jacob-rees-mogg-looks-like/


----------



## kimthecat

Piers Morgan defending his son on Twitter for attending the BLM protest. A bit hypocritical after the carp he has dealt out to others who have broken the rules.


----------



## Calvine

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ummings-house-over-covid-19-response-12000769

@havoc: it is old news, but there are some who are determined not to let it go.

@kimthecat: Piers Morgan seems to change sides daily. One minute he's grinning smugly while posing with The Donald, but now has not a good word to say about him. And seems to think his opinion is so very important.


----------



## rottieboys

kimthecat said:


> Piers Morgan defending his son on Twitter for attending the BLM protest. A bit hypocritical after the carp he has dealt out to others who have broken the rules.


I agree. Blame it on DC


----------



## rottieboys

Calvine said:


> https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ummings-house-over-covid-19-response-12000769
> 
> @havoc: it is old news, but there are some who are determined not to let it go.
> 
> @kimthecat: Piers Morgan seems to change sides daily. One minute he's grinning smugly while posing with The Donald, but now has not a good word to say about him. And seems to think his opinion is so very important.


Piers Morgan got sacked by the Daily Mirror, because he wrote lies about our soldiers. I understand he also got the sack by CNN. No one likes him in America. How he treated Megan and Harry is disgusting... Why they like him so much on GMTV I do not know...Might be because Erron Gordon the director of GMTV is just like him...Leftie.


----------



## kimthecat

rottieboys said:


> Piers Morgan got sacked by the Daily Mirror, because he wrote lies about our soldiers. I understand he also got the sack by CNN. No one likes him in America. How he treated Megan and Harry is disgusting... Why they like him so much on GMTV I do not know...Might be because Erron Gordon the director of GMTV is just like him...Leftie.


I expect he draws in the viewers . He's like Marmite, people love him and loathe him.


----------



## Calvine

rottieboys said:


> Piers Morgan got sacked by the Daily Mirror, because he wrote lies about our soldiers. I understand he also got the sack by CNN. No one likes him in America. How he treated Megan and Harry is disgusting... Why they like him so much on GMTV I do not know...Might be because Erron Gordon the director of GMTV is just like him...Leftie.


There was something in the States which bombed because of low ratings I seem to recall.


----------



## O2.0

Piers Morgan is awful. That fiasco with him and equally awful Rudy Giuliani on GMB was everything that is wrong with privileged rich white men who can't get out from under their own over inflated egos.


----------



## rottieboys

O2.0 said:


> Piers Morgan is awful. That fiasco with him and equally awful Rudy Giuliani on GMB was everything that is wrong with privileged rich white men who can't get out from under their own over inflated egos.


I watch this. Brilliant. Rudy told Piers what most people thinks. Kept calling Piers a liar, told Piers he knows a lot about him. Got sacked by GNN for poor rating. No one like him in America. Then Piers apologise about what Rudy said....Rudy said Suck it...Not what Piers and Susanna thought. I wish Rudy sues Piers GMTV for saying this.


----------



## O2.0

rottieboys said:


> I watch this. Brilliant. Rudy told Piers what most people thinks. Kept calling Piers a liar, told Piers he knows a lot about him. Got sacked by GNN for poor rating. No one like him in America. Then Piers apologise about what Rudy said....Rudy said Suck it...Not what Piers and Susanna thought. I wish Rudy sues Piers GMTV for saying this.


Wait what?
Rudy Giuliani said President Trump has handled this (meaning George Floyd's death and the subsequent protests) "exactly correctly." 
I can assure you, nobody thinks Trump has handled anything about this with any correctness at all... Well, except for the people he pays to lie for him.


----------



## rottieboys

Wait What??? What does that mean. I am not a Trump supporter. I was talking about the interview with Piers and Rudy.


----------



## O2.0

rottieboys said:


> Wait What??? What does that mean. I am not a Trump supporter. I was talking about the interview with Piers and Rudy.


The interview was *about* Trump's handing of the social unrest following George Floyd's murder. Specifically Trump's tweet saying 'when the looting starts the shooting starts' which was a ridiculously inflammatory and racially charged thing to say.
You said "Rudy told Piers what most people thinks." Rudy was defending Trump's tweet, defending his behavior regarding George Floyd's murder and the subsequent protests and marches. Nobody thinks any of Trump's behavior is defensible. So I'm at a loss as to what you think Rudy said that most people are thinking.

As an aside, just musings on my part. I found the part about two white men arguing if a third is racist rather disheartening in a way. Disheartening because still, after all of this going on, they think saying "I'm not racist" or "he's not racist" solves anything. It's not _being_ racist that's the issue, we are all humans, we all operate from some bias or another. It's _behaving_ in racist ways that's the issue. 
Trump can say and pay and bully others in to saying he's not a racist all day long. But the reality is that he took out a full page add calling for the death penalty for 5 black teenagers wrongly accused of killing a jogger in central park. Even after DNA exonerated all 5 of them, Trump said he still believes they are guilty - this comment was in 2016. 
And let's not forget Trump was the main leader of the whole birther thing against president Obama.

It's like the crazy woman in central park calling the police on the black man who dared ask her to put a leash on her dog, and she tried to pretend she was being assaulted by a black man. Then apologizes saying "I'm not racist." Whatever dude, you may not be, but your behavior in that moment most certainly was. I love the man's response too when she apologized: "[There's] no excusing that it was a racist act because it was a racist act," he said. "But [does] that define her entire life? Only she can tell us if that defines her entire life by what she does going forward."

Trump has not done anything 'going forward' to suggest he has any intention of growing or learning from any of this. And people like Rudy Giuliani who enable him are complicit.

Whatever you think Giuliani said that he should be congratulated for, all I can say is that you have entirely missed the point.


----------



## rottieboys

O2.0 said:


> The interview was *about* Trump's handing of the social unrest following George Floyd's murder. Specifically Trump's tweet saying 'when the looting starts the shooting starts' which was a ridiculously inflammatory and racially charged thing to say.
> You said "Rudy told Piers what most people thinks." Rudy was defending Trump's tweet, defending his behavior regarding George Floyd's murder and the subsequent protests and marches. Nobody thinks any of Trump's behavior is defensible. So I'm at a loss as to what you think Rudy said that most people are thinking.
> 
> As an aside, just musings on my part. I found the part about two white men arguing if a third is racist rather disheartening in a way. Disheartening because still, after all of this going on, they think saying "I'm not racist" or "he's not racist" solves anything. It's not _being_ racist that's the issue, we are all humans, we all operate from some bias or another. It's _behaving_ in racist ways that's the issue.
> Trump can say and pay and bully others in to saying he's not a racist all day long. But the reality is that he took out a full page add calling for the death penalty for 5 black teenagers wrongly accused of killing a jogger in central park. Even after DNA exonerated all 5 of them, Trump said he still believes they are guilty - this comment was in 2016.
> And let's not forget Trump was the main leader of the whole birther thing against president Obama.
> 
> It's like the crazy woman in central park calling the police on the black man who dared ask her to put a leash on her dog, and she tried to pretend she was being assaulted by a black man. Then apologizes saying "I'm not racist." Whatever dude, you may not be, but your behavior in that moment most certainly was. I love the man's response too when she apologized: "[There's] no excusing that it was a racist act because it was a racist act," he said. "But [does] that define her entire life? Only she can tell us if that defines her entire life by what she does going forward."
> 
> Trump has not done anything 'going forward' to suggest he has any intention of growing or learning from any of this. And people like Rudy Giuliani who enable him are complicit.
> 
> Whatever you think Giuliani said that he should be congratulated for, all I can say is that you have entirely missed the point.


. I know Susanna was trying to push him about .When the looting start . The shooting starts. I think Ruby was not going to let Piers talk over him which he does all the time. So thats when he started having a go at Piers...He told piers that he was a liar. That is what I meant.. Rudy was arguing with Piers. I think Piers was quite taken back with what he was saying.. I am not a fan of Piers. So, to have Rudy actually getting back at Piers. That is what I meant.. I know there are lots of problems in USA. I was there 2 years ago...I was speaking to a lady, who's husband was in the army. She said that Trump has done a lot of good, said he had cut out a lot of paper work for her husband. Also at a market, Some people loves him. But, that's like Boris over here. Some people cannot stand him... I personally think, since he has been a Prime Minister has has had such a lot to deal with.


----------



## O2.0

rottieboys said:


> . I know Susanna was trying to push him about .When the looting start . The shooting starts. I think Ruby was not going to let Piers talk over him which he does all the time. So thats when he started having a go at Piers...He told piers that he was a liar. That is what I meant.. Rudy was arguing with Piers. I think Piers was quite taken back with what he was saying.. I am not a fan of Piers. So, to have Rudy actually getting back at Piers. That is what I meant.. I know there are lots of problems in USA. I was there 2 years ago...I was speaking to a lady, who's husband was in the army. She said that Trump has done a lot of good, said he had cut out a lot of paper work for her husband. Also at a market, Some people loves him. But, that's like Boris over here. Some people cannot stand him... I personally think, since he has been a Prime Minister has has had such a lot to deal with.


So as long as someone gets back at Piers Morgan, regardless of what they stand for, or who or what they support, good on them?

I think the issue of how Trump has handled the protests and what he's doing (not) to try and unify the country and address underlying racial inequalities is far more important than a petty squabble between two media whores. 
That you found the whole exchange 'brilliant' (your words) is kind of jarring to me. 
As for having been here two years ago and spoke to a military wife and someone at a market thus giving you insight in to what things are like over here.... Um, 'kay....


----------



## lullabydream

rottieboys said:


> that's like Boris over here. Some people cannot stand him... I personally think, since he has been a Prime Minister has has had such a lot to deal with.


I don't think anyone here has ever stated that Boris hasn't had a lot to deal with since being prime minister. There has been many people who can't stand the bloke who has listened, taken heed and put trust in him and ignored politicians in PM question time because quite frankly in the middle of an unknown pandemic, which it is its easy to come down hard on decisions made or not made because its a typical political argument so to speak. Have defended Boris to the hill here.. They truly have

However to compare Boris currently with how Trump has behaved, and the Piers and Rudy sage on morning TV.. Where as @O2.0 said Rudy was defending Trump... Am not defending Piers, because I can clearly say I am not a fan and for them to argue as they did, but to think good on Rudy because he got the upper hand, and not only gave Piers a bashing but his point over Trump must have shone some how, because hey people support Trump...

There are always supporters of as @O2.0 put it psychopaths, doesn't mean its a good thing for all.


----------



## O2.0

This is the interview I'm talking about BTW:






Did you catch Rudy Giuliani say "BTW there were only 9 unarmed black people killed by the police last year"
I don't know about anyone else but any number higher than zero of ANY unarmed person killed by the police is excessive. That he should qualify that high a number with "only" to me shows how little value he puts on human lives


----------



## Dave S

Interesting video. Yes as Piers said years ago Rudi was a well revered person but now he sounds like a maniac.
Rudi cannot distinguish between "inflammatory" and "truth" believing they are different things, in this case both statements are correct.
Not a fan of Piers as he is always breaking in on interviews but he had some good points.


----------



## havoc

O2.0 said:


> Did you catch Rudy Giuliani say "BTW there were only 9 unarmed black people killed by the police last year"


'Only' - that makes it all OK then.
I am so conflicted over the demonstrations happening during this time. I can't bring myself to condemn them as others have much as it's such a huge risk with the virus.


----------



## lullabydream

havoc said:


> 'Only' - that makes it all OK then.
> I am so conflicted over the demonstrations happening during this time. I can't bring myself to condemn them as others have much as it's such a huge risk with the virus.


Boris did say if you need to demonstrate do it peacefully, social distance and wash your hands. I have seen some social distancing on the local ish demo to me.. However where they marched, they marched up one of the narrowest streets ever.. So no chance there then...

I get people want to protest, show as a nation to worldwide audience that it matters, more so than a few viral words online but agree its worrying that we are in a pandemic.

How these protests will affect things with reopening shops in 8 days I don't know. We might not have all the fall out of cases from the protests by then, and are people as worried about Covid-19 with the opening of shops. I don't know, as soon as lockdown was lifted slightly where I am roads just became so much busier.


----------



## havoc

lullabydream said:


> I get people want to protest


I think it's necessary. It needs to be visible and I'm relieved the authorities seem to be taking a soft approach. I think back to me in my teens and twenties, we honestly believed our actions then meant it wouldn't be an issue by now. Heartbreaking I was so wrong.


----------



## rottieboys

O2.0 said:


> So as long as someone gets back at Piers Morgan, regardless of what they stand for, or who or what they support, good on them?
> 
> I think the issue of how Trump has handled the protests and what he's doing (not) to try and unify the country and address underlying racial inequalities is far more important than a petty squabble between two media whores.
> That you found the whole exchange 'brilliant' (your words) is kind of jarring to me.
> As for having been here two years ago and spoke to a military wife and someone at a market thus giving you insight in to what things are like over here.... Um, 'kay....


Don n't start being funny...I have my own opinion thank you.... Yes, I thought it was brilliant. My words.


----------



## lullabydream

havoc said:


> I think it's necessary. It needs to be visible and I'm relieved the authorities seem to be taking a soft approach. I think back to me in my teens and twenties, we honestly believed our actions then meant it wouldn't be an issue by now. Heartbreaking I was so wrong.


Yes I get it too.. Just on the other hand we are in a middle of a pandemic which is a silent predator that is a huge worry.


----------



## rottieboys

O2.0 said:


> This is the interview I'm talking about BTW:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you catch Rudy Giuliani say "BTW there were only 9 unarmed black people killed by the police last year"
> I don't know about anyone else but any number higher than zero of ANY unarmed person killed by the police is excessive. That he should qualify that high a number with "only" to me shows how little value he puts on human lives


You might be interested to know, that on LBC today with Nigel Farage . He started his show with some statistics on Police shooting Black people in USA. and how many White people have been killed by the police. I cannot tell you what they are . But They are more white people killed than black. LBC do have a app you can download.


----------



## O2.0

rottieboys said:


> You might be interested to know, that on LBC today with Nigel Farage . He started his show with some statistics on Police shooting Black people in USA. and how many White people have been killed by the police. I cannot tell you what they are . But They are more white people killed than black. LBC do have a app you can download.


Oh for crying out loud. Not trying to be condescending, but you do understand what 'minority' means yes? Blacks make up about 12% of the US population, yet despite the fact that they only represent 12% of the population, they are far over represented in arrests, incarcerations, and yes, being killed by the police. 
And not that I should have to explain this again, but any number of any race killed by the police is too many. I don't think that number will ever realistically be zero, but we can certainly work towards that.



havoc said:


> 'Only' - that makes it all OK then.
> I am so conflicted over the demonstrations happening during this time. I can't bring myself to condemn them as others have much as it's such a huge risk with the virus.


I don't condemn them at all, I support them. As does my husband who has had to work the protests. He's not at all alone either. His whole department, chief, sheriff, they're all supportive of the protests. As are multiple departments across the country. 
It seems we are at a point as a country that people are finally willing to hear what the minority communities have been trying to say for so long. Like, really hear the message. Pandemic or not, I don't think we can pass this opportunity up.


----------



## rottieboys

O2.0 said:


> Oh for crying out loud. Not trying to be condescending, but you do understand what 'minority' means yes? Blacks make up about 12% of the US population, yet despite the fact that they only represent 12% of the population, they are far over represented in arrests, incarcerations, and yes, being killed by the police.
> And not that I should have to explain this again, but any number of any race killed by the police is too many. I don't think that number will ever realistically be zero, but we can certainly work towards that.
> 
> I don't condemn them at all, I support them. As does my husband who has had to work the protests. He's not at all alone either. His whole department, chief, sheriff, they're all supportive of the protests. As are multiple departments across the country.
> It seems we are at a point as a country that people are finally willing to hear what the minority communities have been trying to say for so long. Like, really hear the message. Pandemic or not, I don't think we can pass this opportunity up.


Well done to you, for supporting this. These poor horses having bicycles throw at them. Plus other things. Don n't forget the damaged they are doing...


----------



## O2.0

rottieboys said:


> Well done to you, for supporting this. These poor horses having bicycles throw at them. Plus other things. Don n't forget the damaged they are doing...


Where are you getting your news from? 
I'm in the US, I support the protests in the US, and I very much appreciate the show of solidarity in other countries.

@rottieboys what do you think would be an appropriate way to speak out on the issues of systemic racism? How should people show their support of POC, and speak out against inequality?


----------



## MollySmith

I understand the concerns, some of the photos were troubling

I can’t imagine, as a white woman, how it must feel to endure racism to such a degree that people had to protest. I can’t imagine they did so likely and many maybe key workers themselves, who may have suffered losses too. I personally feel that the blame should be placed in a bigger space - with world leaders, politician and the catalyst for change is found in all of us, but that’s taking us off thread, I hope that the very best thing to come from this is that we become better educated so that nobody ever has cause to protest again about racism.

I respectfully wish to say that the event I went too was well managed. Black Lives Matter made it very clear thwt anyone not wearing masks would be asked too and people were reminded about social distancing constantly, imsaw hand sanitiser and it was a static protest. That’s to say folk stayed in one place (our very biggest green area and there was room) spaced well apart and knelt. I felt safe, I’ve felt more unsafe crossing the Asda car park and once inside Sainsbury’s when I had the misfortune to go.

I think BLM did what they could as best they can. I suspect if they had not done anything, there would have been many many unmanageable gatherings with far far less care to the pandemic. That said, London did look very busy as did other big cities. I understand why people are alarmed. Me too.

I realise hindsight is a wonderful thing and it’s impossible to change history, the (in my opinion ineptitude of this government) lockdown but there have been less important reasons to gather - the Cheltenham Gold Cup, late lockdown, days out, the beaches, even VE street parties (some of those photos were alarming). It’s also worth mentioning that the oidious Britain First and the equally terrible National Freedom Movement were also trying to get marches going against lockdowns recently.

Hindsight would have created a very different life for many over endless years who aren’t here to speak and it’s a sober reminder that other crimes happen despite the pandemic and many here are privileged to experience them.

* I haven’t seen the latest news from the media I choose to engage with today either, I’ve had a day offline.


----------



## rottieboys

O2.0 said:


> Where are you getting your news from?
> I'm in the US, I support the protests in the US, and I very much appreciate the show of solidarity in other countries.
> 
> @rottieboys what do you think would be an appropriate way to speak out on the issues of systemic racism? How should people show their support of POC, and speak out against inequality?


I am in UK. I am watching the news. Saw the video of the poor horses involved. Listening to the news now. This is disgusting what is going on in London.... Just wait. They will start looting soon. You had this where you are. What has looting got to do with the protesting.


----------



## MollySmith

rottieboys said:


> I am in UK. I am watching the news. Saw the video of the poor horses involved. Listening to the news now. This is disgusting what is going on in London.... Just wait. They will start looting soon. You had this where you are. What has looting got to do with the protesting.


I'm in the UK. Not the news I've seen, I'd like to know your source too. What do you think people should do?


----------



## O2.0

rottieboys said:


> I am in UK. I am watching the news. Saw the video of the poor horses involved. Listening to the news now. This is disgusting what is going on in London.... Just wait. They will start looting soon. You had this where you are. What has looting got to do with the protesting.


So I'll ask you again. How should a POC speak out against systemic racism and inequality. How should someone who supports those efforts show solidarity?


----------



## MollySmith

Not to accuse but I've been looking at a long reading list these past few days and learned a lot of new words, phrases. I recommend looking up Betty Faulkner on Insta and Victoria Alexander (@victoriaalxndr) on Twitter for reading lists, podcast reps and films.


----------



## rottieboys

Dave S said:


> Interesting video. Yes as Piers said years ago Rudi was a well revered person but now he sounds like a maniac.
> Rudi cannot distinguish between "inflammatory" and "truth" believing they are different things, in this case both statements are correct.
> Not a fan of Piers as he is always breaking in on interviews but he had some good points.


That was not the full interviews, It got better as it goes on..Mention Piers got sacked from CNN poor ratings..He kept on saying to Piers, you are a liar...No one in America likes you. Kept saying I know a lot about you Piers.


----------



## rottieboys

MollySmith said:


> I'm in the UK. Not the news I've seen, I'd like to know your source too. What do you think people should do?


Read about it on line...Google this. Look in your news papers. Talking about it on LBC... There it is...The poor horses had a bikes throw at them..


----------



## rottieboys

O2.0 said:


> So I'll ask you again. How should a POC speak out against systemic racism and inequality. How should someone who supports those efforts show solidarity?


Not by damaging things...Causing stress to animals...Climbing up on traffic lights...This is not the way to do it....


----------



## O2.0

rottieboys said:


> Not by damaging things...Causing stress to animals...Climbing up on traffic lights...This is not the way to do it....


Okay, what is the way to do it then?


----------



## MollySmith

rottieboys said:


> Read about it on line...Google this. Look in your news papers. Talking about it on LBC... There it is...The poor horses had a bikes throw at them..


I'm saddened that the police still use horses. I don't think they should be used. I'm not going to listen to any radio station that has Nigel Farage as a host.

What do you think people should do?


----------



## rottieboys

I have just read and saw pictures on the Daily Express on line. Winston Churchill statue desecrated for a second day. If it was n't for him. England would look different from now. Met Police office has collapsed Lung and shattered ribs after horse hit by missiles Thanks all those Protesters....


----------



## rottieboys

MollySmith said:


> I'm saddened that the police still use horses. I'm not going to listen to any radio station that has Nigel Farage as a host.
> 
> What do you think people should do?


I really do not know. But I have listen to Shaun Bailey the Conservative party London mayoral election. He makes sense. He is a black person. and involved with the youths . He wants to support them. People should listen to him.


----------



## rottieboys

MollySmith said:


> I'm saddened that the police still use horses. I don't think they should be used. I'm not going to listen to any radio station that has Nigel Farage as a host.
> 
> What do you think people should do?





O2.0 said:


> Okay, what is the way to do it then?


I have just Quoted what I think might help. Read my other reply.


----------



## rottieboys

rottieboys said:


> I really do not know. But I have listen to Shaun Bailey the Conservative party London mayoral election. He makes sense. He is a black person. and involved with the youths . He wants to support them. People should listen to him.


People should vote for him.. We need someone like him.


----------



## O2.0

rottieboys said:


> I have just Quoted what I think might help. Read my other reply.


Yes, I just did a quick google of Shaun Bailey, as far as I can tell he supports the protests and understands there has to be an outlet for the pent-up frustration people are feeling. 
So he says it's okay, even necessary to protest. You seem to be opposed to the protests, at least that's how your posts come across to me.



rottieboys said:


> Just wait. They will start looting soon.


Just to be clear, there has been no looting in the UK correct?
So do you assume all protesters eventually start looting, or just BLM protesters?


----------



## O2.0

MollySmith said:


> I'm saddened that the police still use horses.


I agree. I do think there might be a way to use police horses effectively, a keyed up protest maybe not so much. That's a hell of a lot to ask of a prey animal.


----------



## rottieboys

O2.0 said:


> Yes, I just did a quick google of Shaun Bailey, as far as I can tell he supports the protests and understands there has to be an outlet for the pent-up frustration people are feeling.
> So he says it's okay, even necessary to protest. You seem to be opposed to the protests, at least that's how your posts come across to me.
> You can protest without causing damaged or throwing things at the horses. Quite protest. Thats what I thought they were doing.
> 
> Just to be clear, there has been no looting in the UK correct?
> So do you assume all protesters eventually start looting, or just BLM protesters?[/QUOTE


----------



## lullabydream

rottieboys said:


> I really do not know. But I have listen to Shaun Bailey the Conservative party London mayoral election. He makes sense. He is a black person. and involved with the youths . He wants to support them. People should listen to him.


What Shaun Bailey is say though, is what poc have always wanted in America, they haven't got it... A community that works with the police force

He's directing this at events today in the UK of unrest in London.. One demonstration where surely the minority used anger, rage etc against the police after a large but peaceful protest in the most what I read...

To be fair, not so fair.. You get the same 'rage' for no other reason than anarchy at times at some events picking out the air here LBGT community events not wanting say the security of the police around with some minorities...

Some of the numpties have of course extrapolated police to mean all police in this case of David Lloyd.. Are they wrong? Statistics probably show that they are not especially if they look at stereotypes.

Am not saying Shaun Bailey is wrong as he is supportive of the protests, but like many not the violence.


----------



## rottieboys

O2.0 said:


> Yes, I just did a quick google of Shaun Bailey, as far as I can tell he supports the protests and understands there has to be an outlet for the pent-up frustration people are feeling.
> So he says it's okay, even necessary to protest. You seem to be opposed to the protests, at least that's how your posts come across to me.
> 
> Just to be clear, there has been no looting in the UK correct?
> So do you assume all protesters eventually start looting, or just BLM protesters?


There is certain elements of protesters who do start Looting. Just like in USA under BLM.


----------



## O2.0

rottieboys said:


> There is certain elements of protesters who do start Looting. Just like in USA under BLM.


Again to be clear, there has been no looting in the UK yes?

May I ask why you seem more concerned with looting (material things) than the deaths of innocent, unarmed POC (people)?


----------



## MollySmith

O2.0 said:


> Yes, I just did a quick google of Shaun Bailey, as far as I can tell he supports the protests and understands there has to be an outlet for the pent-up frustration people are feeling.
> So he says it's okay, even necessary to protest. You seem to be opposed to the protests, at least that's how your posts come across to me.
> 
> Just to be clear, there has been no looting in the UK correct?
> So do you assume all protesters eventually start looting, or just BLM protesters?


I've caught up with the news here (BBC https://www.bbc.co.uk/news ). The UK police have said - especially in Bristol where Edward Colston's statue was destroyed - that they tried to be sensitive and kept largely away. What's telling is that the community had asked for the statue to be removed and it hasn't happened. Bristol was built on the slave trade. Wrexham, Glasgow all reported peaceful protests but it was a monitory who were causing trouble. According to the BBC.

no looting as far as I know.

In general - to the thread at large..

I think we are being pulled apart. White privilege and fear of the coronavirus, and those angry enough to take to the streets during a deadly pandemic. Two pandemics. But it does beg the question, how do we handle protests in a new post-pandemic society. BLM did stream protests online, handed out masks but people are taking risks.


----------



## MollySmith

rottieboys said:


> People should vote for him.. We need someone like him.


What do you think about pledging to educate ourselves so we all stop making judgements that are offensive, so racism is eradicated?


----------



## MollySmith

rottieboys said:


> I have just read and saw pictures on the Daily Express on line. Winston Churchill statue desecrated for a second day. If it was n't for him. England would look different from now. Met Police office has collapsed Lung and shattered ribs after horse hit by missiles Thanks all those Protesters....


You may wish to find out more about Hussein Obama, Churchill's attitude to Indians, the Kurds, his responses to South African concentration camps during the Boer war... yes, England would look very different but I expect the rest of the world would have too had he not been so obsessed by the colour of skin.


----------



## havoc

lullabydream said:


> Yes I get it too.. Just on the other hand we are in a middle of a pandemic which is a silent predator that is a huge worry.


It is a worry but as I see it only to those who choose to take the risk. I know there's the argument about coming home and passing the virus onto vulnerable relatives etc. That's only applicable if they're members of the same household or the vulnerable choose to ignore the advice. Through all of this we have been able to choose our level of risk. That's privilege.


----------



## O2.0

MollySmith said:


> You may wish to find out more about Hussein Obama, Churchill's attitude to Indians, the Kurds, his responses to South African concentration camps during the Boer war... yes, England would look very different but I expect the rest of the world would have too had he not been so obsessed by the colour of skin.


Hussein Obama??

But yes, Churchill like so many others of his generation did believe the white race to be superior. Not that it negates his strength and leadership during WW2, but neither does it exonerate him ether.

And again, perspective. On the one hand we have a statue of a long dead colonialist getting some paint tossed on it. On the other we have a man, begging for air, suffocated to death by a police officer. I know which one I'm going to get more worked up about.

We have one group of people saying, and have been saying for decades now: "they're killing black people for no reason and without repercussion" and there is radio silence. 
Then a few stores get their windows knocked out, a few TVs and shoes get stolen, all of a sudden those people who were silent about the unjust deaths of black people, all of a sudden, now they have something to say? Doesn't sit well...

This was from 3 years ago. The big story back then was that an American football player, Colin Kaepernick dared to peacefully, quietly, take a knee during the national anthem in protest of police brutality. People went off the rails on the offended scale. How dare he. 
Now look at where we are.


----------



## MollySmith

This article isn't current but there are a few familiar names
https://www.vox.com/2016/4/22/11487098/obama-british-grandfather-kenya


----------



## O2.0

MollySmith said:


> This article isn't current but there are a few familiar names
> https://www.vox.com/2016/4/22/11487098/obama-british-grandfather-kenya


Ah, thank you! I wasn't aware of that history, nice to be educated.

I was surprised because on this side of the pond, some people purposefully call Barack Obama by his middle name - Hussein, to draw attention to his "otherness" (in their eyes). Sometimes when I see someone say "Hussein Obama" they're referring to the 44th president of the US.


----------



## MollySmith

O2.0 said:


> Ah, thank you! I wasn't aware of that history, nice to be educated.
> 
> I was surprised because on this side of the pond, some people purposefully call Barack Obama by his middle name - Hussein, to draw attention to his "otherness" (in their eyes). Sometimes when I see someone say "Hussein Obama" they're referring to the 44th president of the US.


ah I wasn't aware of the use of names, it's helpful to know that.


----------



## kimthecat

rottieboys said:


> These poor horses having bicycles throw at them. Plus other things. Don n't forget the damaged they are doing...


Yes, poor horses. Seen the film clips on twitter, they don't seem to be showing them much on mainstream media .


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> I'm in the UK. Not the news I've seen, I'd like to know your source too. What do you think people should do?


On Twitter , you havent seen them ?


----------



## kimthecat




----------



## kimthecat

link to film clip. 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269327035433877506


----------



## kimthecat

O2.0 said:


> Yes, I just did a quick google of Shaun Bailey, as far as I can tell he supports the protests and understands there has to be an outlet for the pent-up frustration people are feeling.
> So he says it's okay, even necessary to protest. You seem to be opposed to the protests, at least that's how your posts come across to me.


People have the right to peaceful process but it s the violence that worries people . In these times the problem is the spread of corona virus to the people in the crowd and their families and so on.



> Just to be clear, there has been no looting in the UK correct?
> So do you assume all protesters eventually start looting, or just BLM protesters?


 There have been riots and looting and setting fire to buildings before in the UK .

Pocessions aren't more important than people but looting and riots put innocent people at risk. In the US people have been hurt by looters , one man was shot dead 
"Dorn, a retired police captain, was shot and killed in the early morning hours of June 2 while trying to protect his friend's pawn shop during a night of violent protests"


----------



## kimthecat

There's a lot of nasty stuff on Twitter. I understand how angry people are but we need to be united not divided


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> There's a lot of nasty stuff on Twitter. I understand how angry people are but we need to be united not divided


Charming.

I'm pretty sure that mask is pointless.


----------



## havoc

O2.0 said:


> And again, perspective. On the one hand we have a statue of a long dead colonialist getting some paint tossed on it. On the other we have a man, begging for air, suffocated to death by a police officer. I know which one I'm going to get more worked up about.


This. This over and over and over.
No matter what the issue there is always a fringe element will use any protest to cause trouble. There are also those who will use that behaviour to back up their own prejudice and it is so frustrating that idiots give them the excuse to do so. There's no doubt the numerous images of peaceful, dignified protest have been much more powerful.


----------



## rottieboys

O2.0 said:


> Again to be clear, there has been no looting in the UK yes?
> 
> May I ask why you seem more concerned with looting (material things) than the deaths of innocent, unarmed POC (people)?


WHAT can we do in England......I hope no-one start to loot...


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> There's a lot of nasty stuff on Twitter. I understand how angry people are but we need to be united not divided


To me this shows why it's impossible to be united, because there are many people who won't understand why black lives matter and the anger behind this sign.why it says these words.

To me, it's not aggression it's about disruption. She isn't her past, she's challenging us and the white privilege, and systemic racism. (My research subject for my incomplete PhD is on the psychology of protest and design - something like that). That's my take anyway, as a white woman with my privilege. I see nothing offensive. I see a lot more offensive in our history, the way we have ignored racism and ignorance.

I"ll repeat my comment of earlier, people (in general) need to check their privilege. If the world had been united there would be no need for this. In my view, it's important to look at the cause as much as a solution and that starts with learning, not making judgments. It's making judgments that got to this point.

There are no reports of looting. I've already replied about the police using a horse and saw the news, again replied about that too. I've also commented on the event I went to.


----------



## MollySmith

How to use white privilege to fight racism. Well worth a read.

https://www.boredpanda.com/fight-racism-what-can-i-do-betsyfaulkner/


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> link to film clip.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269327035433877506


Watched this in horror, how anyone could throw anything at horses is beyond me, maybe next time they'll use water canon with a bright red dye in it.


----------



## Cleo38

MollySmith said:


> To me this shows why it's impossible to be united, because there are many people who won't understand why black lives matter and the anger behind this sign.why it says these words.
> 
> To me, it's not aggression it's about disruption. She isn't her past, she's challenging us and the white privilege, and systemic racism. (My research subject for my incomplete PhD is on the psychology of protest and design - something like that). That's my take anyway, as a white woman with my privilege. I see nothing offensive. I see a lot more offensive in our history, the way we have ignored racism and ignorance.
> .


I agree that there are lots of people who are instantly dismissive, I understand the anger but I also think this sort of sign is antagonistic & again just serves to create a divide.

I also find the idea of privilege can be used in so many ways & for so many groups of people. Whilst we should try to understand this concept & what it (might) mean it isn't easy & is not always so clear cut IMO


----------



## MollySmith

Cleo38 said:


> I agree that there are lots of people who are instantly dismissive, I understand the anger but I also think this sort of sign is antagonistic & again just serves to create a divide.
> 
> I also find the idea of privilege can be used in so many ways & for so many groups of people. Whilst we should try to understand this concept & what it (might) mean it isn't easy & is not always so clear cut IMO


Signs and language are incredibly subjective. Even if the creator explained her thinking. My view is entirely subjective too!

Yes agree, it's why I've been reading more from recommended lists as I feel i understand very little. I am a podcast presenter with others (white) and our weekend has been spent chatting to BAME BIPOC friends about handing over episode presenting to them which further highlighted how little I knew. I always turn to education I must admit but think it never more important so we can inform independent opinions (and not be guided by the press) and hearing voices directly informed. These signs are part of the narrative


----------



## havoc

Cleo38 said:


> I also find the idea of privilege can be used in so many ways & for so many groups of people. Whilst we should try to understand this concept it isn't easy & is not always so clear cut IMO


It isn't easy to understand and I struggle. One brilliant Ted talk did help me though it wasn't on the race issue. A trans woman could give her experiences, examples of how she was treated both before and after. Stupid little things, how she had her judgement questioned as a woman - constantly even down to whether she was in the right seat on an aircraft and even then after she had shown her boarding card. Things she knew would never have happened to her before. It clarified privilege for me because I'm a woman and have 'been there'. Maybe you can't understand if you haven't, if it's so ingrained and accepted that you don't see it. I don't think I could have understood the same if it hadn't been about something which affects me.


----------



## MollySmith

Recommended reading listed by Victoria Alexander in Twitter (@victoriaalexndr)


----------



## MollySmith

havoc said:


> It isn't easy to understand and I struggle. One brilliant Ted talk did help me though it wasn't on the race issue. A trans woman could give her experiences, examples of how she was treated both before and after. Stupid little things, how she had her judgement questioned as a woman - constantly even down to whether she was in the right seat on an aircraft and even then after she had shown her boarding card. Things she knew would never have happened to her before. It clarified privilege for me because I'm a woman and have 'been there'. Maybe you can't understand if you haven't, if it's so ingrained and accepted that you don't see it. I don't think I could have understood the same if it hadn't been about something which affects me.


I read something similar about being stopped for speeding and how we may get cross, with us and the police, worry about paying the fine but we never think we may die from it.


----------



## Cleo38

havoc said:


> It isn't easy to understand and I struggle. One brilliant Ted talk did help me though it wasn't on the race issue. A trans woman could give her experiences, examples of how she was treated both before and after. Stupid little things, how she had her judgement questioned as a woman - constantly even down to whether she was in the right seat on an aircraft and even then after she had shown her boarding card. Things she knew would never have happened to her before. It clarified privilege for me because I'm a woman and have 'been there'. Maybe you can't understand if you haven't, if it's so ingrained and accepted that you don't see it. I don't think I could have understood the same if it hadn't been about something which affects me.


I agree, it isn't easy & we should all be more considerate but I do think the word can be thrown around too easily. I am a member of a couple of FB feminist groups & can see the same with 'male privilege' being used .. again I agree that this is a reality but not always as clear cut especially if class is also a consideration ....

Challenging perceptions can be very threatening to some people but helping each other understand is a much better way. I think that in some ways we have become to scared to have difficult conversations as accusations of racisim, transphobia, etc are thrown at people who have different views or simply want to discuss a subject. I posted ages ago about an open day at a local mosque where I used to live who had a Q&A session. It was amazing as everyone was encouraged to ask questions, nothing was off limits & people really opened up, they stopped being scared they would be shouted down & asked what they really wanted to. The day was great success for everyone & previous tensions amongst some of the local residents regarding the opening were diminished & people were happier that they had been listened to as well as their worries being addressed.


----------



## kimthecat

Cleo38 said:


> I agree that there are lots of people who are instantly dismissive, I understand the anger but I also think this sort of sign is antagonistic & again just serves to create a divide.
> 
> I also find the idea of privilege can be used in so many ways & for so many groups of people. Whilst we should try to understand this concept & what it (might) mean it isn't easy & is not always so clear cut IMO


Agree with this. There's a lot to be angry about but it doesn't win people over.

@MollySmith The thing is , if white people are privileged then they dont have to do anythng because they're alright Jack .Its all very well saying Read this and read that. Not every one has the money to buy books or have the education to understand them . You need the good will of the common people not turn them against you.


----------



## MissSpitzMum

I fully support the cause and in no way think racism is dead in the UK. I don't in any way support the protests. 

We have a pandemic. People are being found dead and decomposing in their homes. The BAME section of society has been worst affected. This really is not the time to gather together in our thousands. Blood on their hands in my opinion.

Having said that, although I knew quite a bit about racism in the US, I have used this time of protests to educate myself further. I fully support BLM protests in the US - if you can be shot in your own home by the police, what choice do you have?

I really worry about the state of our country in 1-2 weeks time, it will be back to square one in the rate of infection. Very scared for my vulnerable family members and friends in the NHS.


----------



## MollySmith

Deleted as it shows my details


----------



## kimthecat

havoc said:


> It is a worry but as I see it only to those who choose to take the risk. I know there's the argument about coming home and passing the virus onto vulnerable relatives etc. That's only applicable if they're members of the same household or the vulnerable choose to ignore the advice. Through all of this we have been able to choose our level of risk. That's privilege.


If you read back the Corona virus thread , there were posts condemning people for driving to isolated beauty spots and sitting on benches , support the NHS workers by not burdening them. So why has that changed? As was said in the thread , you can not know you have the illness and be a carrier.

Whether its people congregating on beaches ( which should have been closed ) or people meeting at a demo , they will infect other people whether they are in the same household or not , they will travel by public transport , they will go to work or their children go back to school .


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> Agree with this. There's a lot to be angry about but it doesn't win people over.
> 
> @MollySmith The thing is , if white people are privileged then they dont have to do anythng because they're alright Jack .Its all very well saying Read this and read that. Not every one has the money to buy books or have the education to understand them . You need the good will of the common people not turn them against you.


Yes good point. A university press have been busy tweeting education and many pulled them up on lack of diversity in their board and affordable books.

Conversely on PF we have a busy what are we watching and reading thread. Many folk can. The Betty Faulkner list I think I have referred to (not had second coffee yet!) lists free podcasts. I mentioned elsewhere the Big Issue ran a report on poverty and homelessness during and post pandemic and identified just under 500,000 households who could be homeless due to the pandemic.


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> I mentioned elsewhere the Big Issue ran a report on poverty and homelessness during and post pandemic and identified just under 500,000 households who could be homeless due to the pandemic.


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> If you read back the Corona virus thread , there were posts condemning people for driving to isolated beauty spots and sitting on benches , support the NHS workers by not burdening them. So why has that changed? As was said in the thread , you can not know you have the illness and be a carrier.
> 
> Whether its people congregating on beaches ( which should have been closed ) or people meeting at a demo , they will infect other people whether they are in the same household or not , they will travel by public transport , they will go to work or their children go back to school .


I do want to reiterate that the demo I went to was static, distanced, peaceful and with sanitiser and masks. It was also streamed online. They all were. I understand from friends who attends Doncaster and Glasgow that they were the same. It honestly truthfully feels more scary going inside Sainsbury's and with a vulnerable husband I would have left immediately if I felt in danger.

Now I must go and do some work!


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


>


Yup I know.

But for some, if we can learn to drive, post in the Internet, leap on Twitter and read a book, listen to BBC Sounds, we have very little excuses not to refresh what we consume. It works both ways and we've been ignorant for too long. Centuries. Had we known more we'd not be having this conversation because the demos wouldn't be needed. I'd like to think we all pause and ensure it never happens again.


----------



## MilleD

MollySmith said:


> I do want to reiterate that the demo I went to was static, distanced, peaceful and with sanitiser and masks. It was also streamed online. They all were. I understand from friends who attends Doncaster and Glasgow that they were the same. It honestly truthfully feels more scary going inside Sainsbury's and with a vulnerable husband I would have left immediately if I felt in danger.
> 
> Now I must go and do some work!


I honestly don't understand how you can feel about the lockdown being eased too early and too fast and then go to a demo. Static/distanced etc or not.


----------



## MollySmith

MilleD said:


> I honestly don't understand how you can feel about the lockdown being eased too early and too fast and then go to a demo. Static/distanced etc or not.


Because it mattered. Because it was well managed. I don't expect you to understand nor do I have to explain anymore.

Dam the inconvenient timing of Flloyd's murder in a pandemic? Damn that nuisance racism and people protesting? We are back to the question of last night, what else are people meant to do.


----------



## havoc

Everyone has to decide their priorities at any given moment and everyone will do some sort of rolling risk assessment without knowing it. The vast majority of those at the protests would have been very low risk for complications from the virus. For many weeks the vast majority have been prepared to have their own freedoms curtailed, in the main for the benefit of others - for the old, for the vulnerable. We're stuck with this virus and we will continue to do the best we can for those at most risk. If you're in that category be aware what others are doing for you and understand that's the same attitude drives them to stand up and be counted for others too.


----------



## MilleD

MollySmith said:


> Because it mattered. Because it was well managed.
> 
> Dam the inconvenient timing of Flloyd's murder in a pandemic? Damn that nuisance racism and people protesting. We are back to the question of last night, what else are people meant to do.


How many times have you edited this?

To be honest with you, yes I think people shouldn't be gathering in huge crowds at the moment. People bitch about folks going to beaches and beauty spots, look at the shite spat at Cummings.

But it's ok for people to gather in their thousands in the street.

Are you saying racism is a new thing??


----------



## O2.0

To be clear, here in the US most restrictions have been eased (wisdom of this choice aside) and had been since Memorial day Weekend. The protests didn't start until the following weekend. 

And to be clear, the vast, huge majority of the protests have been peaceful, many of the police have kneeled right along side the protesters in a show of support and solidarity. 

Yes initially the protests were angry and violent especially in Minneapolis where George Floyd was murdered. It was the BLM organizers and supporters and George Floyd's family themselves who have called for peaceful protesting, and their call for peace has mostly been heeded. 

It also bears mentioning that in the US, the right to assemble is written in to our constitution. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." 

People are angry, and very justifiably so. Was anyone able to watch the video I posted about "when is the right time for a black person to protest?" Because even 3 years ago, you can hear the frustration. Eventually that frustration boils over.


----------



## havoc

Cleo38 said:


> I agree, it isn't easy & we should all be more considerate but I do think the word can be thrown around too easily. I am a member of a couple of FB feminist groups & can see the same with 'male privilege' being used .. again I agree that this is a reality but not always as clear cut especially if class is also a consideration ....


Maybe it's harder to grasp because it's always brought up as such a sweeping generalisation when it's the daily drip of seemingly unimportant things are what grind people down. Privilege exists everywhere. It can be transient, linked to a stage of life rather than a more permanent characteristic such as race or gender. I was definitely treated better and listened to more in many situations before I had a face full of wrinkles


----------



## O2.0

Cleo38 said:


> I also find the idea of privilege can be used in so many ways & for so many groups of people. Whilst we should try to understand this concept & what it (might) mean it isn't easy & is not always so clear cut IMO


I did a privilege walk once as part of a training course. I assumed I would end up towards the front, I'm a middle class white woman with educated parents. Instead I ended up towards the back, like one of the last 3 out of a group of more than 20. I was shocked. Because I do consider myself privileged in many ways.

They ask questions and tell you to take steps forwards or back based on your answer. For example: If you felt like your home was a safe place take 3 steps forward. If you were afraid in your own home, take 3 steps back. That sort of thing. 
Turns out having abusive, alcoholic parents, not being born in the US, not speaking English as a first language, and several other factors are considered lack of privilege - in that scenario at least. 
I'm not sure I agree. I've had many more opportunities being bilingual, and having lived in different countries gives me perspective and insight I wouldn't otherwise have. It's strange to have someone tell me that which I thought was a strength is actually a burden.

Privilege aside, systemic racism is real though, and it seems as a country we are finally at a place in our collective psyche that we're finally ready to listen, and fully acknowledge that which we would rather not talk about. We need to sit in our discomfort for a minute.


----------



## Pawscrossed

My partner was in a shop late this year, before lockdown. He asked for help to find something. A white man spoke over him. He said 'it's dark in here, did someone speak'. This happens. Some of my family don't speak to me.

We went to a protest. We thought a lot about it, we aruged a lot about it. We know he is at risk, we felt worried about lockdown too, _really worried_. Our town hasn't been very good at lockdown. We went to a place where he felt safer (not as far as Barnard Castle! About 9 miles from us). We couldn't _not_ go. We wore masks, have sanitiser for our hands and we observed all distancing. We showered as soon as we got home and we put clothes in the wash. We saw no violence from the attendees. We did see some white male protests, National Freedom perhaps they had no signs, I don't know, I didn't want to know, arguing with the police and the police moved them on very quickly. They were respectful.

Thank you to anyone who risked their health with us to protest safely, we know you thought hard about that. Thank you O2.0, MollySmith, Havoc and Cleo your posts moved us. Sorry I can't tag you on my stupid mobile. We are both saddened by the actions of some too.

If we had one thing to say, listen. It's okay to ask, talking means an awful lot, violence doesn't, with our words or actions, or blame. Now is a very good time to have a conversation with your black friends and neighbors. Don't get too wrapped up here or by the news to do that.


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> Because it mattered. Because it was well managed. I don't expect you to understand nor do I have to explain anymore.
> 
> Dam the inconvenient timing of Flloyd's murder in a pandemic? Damn that nuisance racism and people protesting? We are back to the question of last night, what else are people meant to do.


That's good your demo was well manage , the one in Belfast was too but others were not.

No ones damning anything or anyone ,except the cop who murdered George Flloyd . 
What are people supposed to do , ? Wait a little while , a few weeks , a few months maybe , though I appreciate people are reacting to their anger .

Im amazed at how people are dismissing the virus , I really am. Its killed thousands of people in this country ( 40,000 ?,) and more deaths every day and if it spikes , there will be more to come. people are dying in hospital surrounding by strangers and not able to see their loved one. The was a young boy about 12 in hospital who wasnt allowed to see his and he died and his family were in agony . Imagine how scared he must and been and wanting his mum. It made me weep. All those key workers who died for nursing us , putting the public first .


----------



## MollySmith

MilleD said:


> How many times have you edited this?
> 
> To be honest with you, yes I think people shouldn't be gathering in huge crowds at the moment. People bitch about folks going to beaches and beauty spots, look at the shite spat at Cummings.
> 
> But it's ok for people to gather in their thousands in the street.
> 
> Are you saying racism is a new thing??


4 times. 
First draft explained why I went (already posted earlier)
Second - reply was two words
Third - two words will never be enough as I expect the reply will be 'that explains nothing' or words to that effect.

I am saying racism is new? No.


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> That's good your demo was well manage , the one in Belfast was too but others were not.
> 
> No ones damning anything or anyone ,except the cop who murdered George Flloyd .
> What are people supposed to do , ? Wait a little while , a few weeks , a few months maybe , though I appreciate people are reacting to their anger .
> 
> Im amazed at how people are dismissing the virus , I really am. Its killed thousands of people in this country ( 40,000 ?,) and more deaths every day and if it spikes , there will be more to come. people are dying in hospital surrounding by strangers and not able to see their loved one. The was a young boy about 12 in hospital who wasnt allowed to see his and he died and his family were in agony . Imagine how scared he must and been and wanting his mum. It made me weep. All those key workers who died for nursing us , putting the public first .


It's really difficult to know what to do and I agree the virus is being dismissed too easily as well. As @Pawscrossed says, many thought a lot. I know I did. I have been washing the shopping, car keys, dog.... everything and the last thing I would want to spread it. I paid the exact attention to my activations but I absolutely agree not everyone did in other places.


----------



## Jesthar

Martin Luthor King was a passionate advocate of peaceful protest, and always spoke out against violent protest. However, he also took time over and over to also explain he understood why some protests turned violent, that rioting was the language of the unheard. It#s ironic that over 50 years down the line we have more ways of communicating than he could have dreamed of, but STILL black people are unheard and silenced.

I saw this on FB the other day, says it better than I ever could:


----------



## rona

Just the epitome of a rock and a hard place as far as I can see.
No one is right and no one is wrong apart from the few violent cops and the looters


----------



## MollySmith

MilleD said:


> How many times have you edited this?
> 
> To be honest with you, yes I think people shouldn't be gathering in huge crowds at the moment. People bitch about folks going to beaches and beauty spots, look at the shite spat at Cummings.
> 
> But it's ok for people to gather in their thousands in the street.
> 
> Are you saying racism is a new thing??


Truthfully @MilleD I assessed my personal risk, that of the gathering and made my call for me, by me. I didn't speak to anyone, didn't remove my mask, didn't touch anyone, stood at the edge. Showered. Washed clothes, I do not know what else to tell you. If that is unacceptable to you, I suggest we politely beg to differ.


----------



## O2.0

This is what people are protesting.
Repeatedly George Floyd says "I can't breathe, please let me stand." The officer kept his knee on Floyd's neck for nearly 9 minutes. 2:53 of those minutes were after Floyd had become unresponsive. Read that again. Even after Floyd stopped moving, stopped talking, stopped breathing, the officer kept his knee on his neck for nearly 3 more minutes.



It doesn't go unnoticed that some people (not just here, but all over social media) have plenty to say about damage done to property, small pockets of violence during protests. But these same people had nothing to say when the footage of George Floyd came out. Crickets.

Maybe it does take burning down a city to be heard.

Images removed


----------



## crystalwitch

Dave S said:


> But it was quite legal apparently as it was the nearest baby sitter.
> Don't know why Carrie could not have done the job.
> 
> I don't like or trust Cummings, I think he is evil behind the scenes and is only out to get his own way.


No, I don't like or trust him either. I think he was 100% wrong to go on his little jaunt but he is far from being the only person in a position of authority to break the lockdown rules. Several MPs have also been caught making unnecessary journeys and quite a few tv personalities too - I know they aren't authority figures but they still should be setting an example - Gordon Ramsey, for example, apparently not only drove from London to Devon/Cornwall, but then drove to another address about 30 miles away! And that's not counting all those who also flouted the rules, but weren't caught.


----------



## MollySmith

O2.0 said:


> This is what people are protesting.
> Repeatedly George Floyd says "I can't breathe, please let me stand." The officer kept his knee on Floyd's neck for nearly 9 minutes. 2:53 of those minutes were after Floyd had become unresponsive. Read that again. Even after Floyd stopped moving, stopped talking, stopped breathing, the officer kept his knee on his neck for nearly 3 more minutes.
> 
> It doesn't go unnoticed that some people (not just here, but all over social media) have plenty to say about damage done to property, small pockets of violence during protests. But these same people had nothing to say when the footage of George Floyd came out. Crickets.
> 
> Maybe it does take burning down a city to be heard.


You've posted what I wanted to say with much more eloquence than I would - as always. Thanks.
Edited as showing deleted material.


----------



## SusieRainbow

This is obviously a deeply emotive topic but please remember we have family members using these forums and keep material appropriate ? 
The images posted will give me nigtmares, I would hate my grandchildren to come across them.


----------



## havoc

O2.0 said:


> Turns out having abusive, alcoholic parents, not being born in the US, not speaking English as a first language, and several other factors are considered lack of privilege - in that scenario at least.
> I'm not sure I agree.


Don't think I agree either. I do think it highlights the problem in explaining it. It isn't always something which can be measured or categorised so easily and then we end up with people attempting to do so to 'teach' it when it probably has to be experienced. We've most of us been on both sides, in the privileged group and suffered a little when we weren't. We just didn't recognise it at the time. We probably remember the frustration at the lack of fairness.


----------



## O2.0

O2.0 said:


> Images removed


I did not post images. 
I posted a link to a video which youtube has covered up with a warning label. From a UK news source - the Telegraph.

I'm trying not to post angrily because I know that's how conversations deteriorate, but come on. It's okay to talk about this, just don't get too real? Don't make anyone *that* uncomfortable? 
You don't even have to watch the whole thing, but if people are asking "why the protests" it makes sense to at least have an idea of what the catalyst was.

That video has been on every news station in the US, it's all over social media, every home has had it on TV. It's a man pleading for his life while 4 officers look on and do nothing. It has disgusted police agencies throughout the country. Police officers are 'crossing the blue line' and calling for their fellow officers to be brought to justice, it's that bad.

So it's okay to question the protests as several have done on this thread, but not okay to try to try and explain where the anger comes from? <-- Note I said explain, not justify. I'm not saying George Floyd's death justifies violence, but surely we can try to understand where that much anger and frustration comes from. And if you refuse to even look at the 'why', how are we ever going to move forward?

If the general reaction to something that horrific is to stick your fingers in your ears and sing la la la la la to avoid having to face what is reality for so many people, no wonder these same people feel like their only solution is to get louder and louder. 
At what point can we bring ourselves to face our own discomfort and look, really look at what minority races are experiencing? Maybe even try to understand where the anger comes from instead of just whitewashing (what an apt word) their anger and frustration?










And from Dr. Martin Luther King:


----------



## Pawscrossed

SusieRainbow said:


> This is obviously a deeply emotive topic but please remember we have family members using these forums and keep material appropriate ?
> The images posted will give me nigtmares, I would hate my grandchildren to come across them.


may I ask why the images of the horse, the post with the sign that has the word 'f*Ck' in it and @rottieboys dubious posts are allowed to stay and @O2.0 video link was removed even though it did not Auto play. It has warnings slapped all over it. I understand it is not nice to look at but are the above anymore acceptable for children or the accompanying commentary less wholesome? I would not want my step daughter to see some of that!


----------



## rona

O2.0 said:


> I did not post images.
> I posted a link to a video which youtube has covered up with a warning label. From a UK news source - the Telegraph.
> 
> I'm trying not to post angrily because I know that's how conversations deteriorate, but come on. It's okay to talk about this, just don't get too real? Don't make anyone *that* uncomfortable?
> You don't even have to watch the whole thing, but if people are asking "why the protests" it makes sense to at least have an idea of what the catalyst was.
> 
> That video has been on every news station in the US, it's all over social media, every home has had it on TV. It's a man pleading for his life while 4 officers look on and do nothing. It has disgusted police agencies throughout the country. Police officers are 'crossing the blue line' and calling for their fellow officers to be brought to justice, it's that bad.
> 
> So it's okay to question the protests as several have done on this thread, but not okay to try to try and explain where the anger comes from? <-- Note I said explain, not justify. I'm not saying George Floyd's death justifies violence, but surely we can try to understand where that much anger and frustration comes from. And if you refuse to even look at the 'why', how are we ever going to move forward?
> 
> If the general reaction to something that horrific is to stick your fingers in your ears and sing la la la la la to avoid having to face what is reality for so many people, no wonder these same people feel like their only solution is to get louder and louder.
> At what point can we bring ourselves to face our own discomfort and look, really look at what minority races are experiencing? Maybe even try to understand where the anger comes from instead of just whitewashing (what an apt word) their anger and frustration?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And from Dr. Martin Luther King:


We have seen it here too thankyou. We don't need to see it again on a pet forum.


----------



## kimthecat

First or second degree murder? Apparently , they went for second degree because there is more chance of a conviction.

That cop , he was so arrogant , he knew he was being filmed and he looked straight at the camera and despite pleas to stop carried on. 
People are mentioning LLoyds background and what he did , but that doesnt mean he deserved this or that the cop was judge and jury .

I wanted to jump into the screen and stop that man being murdered, I though why didnt the people watching do anything but the same thing could happen to them if they intervened. In this country , Im not afraid to watch very closely and ask the person being arrested if they are ok . Usually the cops just stay, step back madam though ónce I was threatened with arrest . Recently , a woman from up the road , her son was arrested . í dont know what happened but it ended up in my neighbours from garden , h e was very distressed and kept shouting let me go , let me go . he was pinned down, there was about 5 cops but they didnt hurt him . he was put in a van and he was still throwing himself around. it was horrible to watch but Im not sure what else they could have done. He hangs out with a bad crowd , hes not a bad lad. 

We have two fatal stabbings here not long back , one of the murderers lives in the next road. When this was fully a council estate , no one was ever murdered , it was petty stuff , It seems society is getting worse, the amount of stabbings and shooting in London , it never stops even with lock down ,
Mayor Khan , closed police stations and cut number of police. Shaun bailey , a candidate for Mayor , he has done a lot with youths and gangs , trying to get to the root of the problem .


----------



## Pawscrossed

MollySmith said:


> Truthfully @MilleD I assessed my personal risk, that of the gathering and made my call for me, by me. I didn't speak to anyone, didn't remove my mask, didn't touch anyone, stood at the edge. Showered. Washed clothes, I do not know what else to tell you. If that is unacceptable to you, I suggest we politely beg to differ.


Thank you for going. Thanks for explaining your experiences many times.



rona said:


> We have seen it here too thankyou. We don't need to see it again on a pet forum.


it is unpleasant yet a sober reminder, but reading some of the posts on here are unpleasant. That reminder seems necessary for some, the minority thank fully . People having to defend their choice to peacefully protest, being called rioters on another thread. I don't want anyone to have a nightmare - we have had many and we are very fearful.


----------



## kimthecat

How can you compare a photo with f*ck in it to watching a man being murdered? i would think most people in the country have seen it. Why watch it over and over again unless you enjoy seeing people die ?

ETA Unpleasant ? That doesnt begin to describe the film !


----------



## kimthecat

Pawscrossed said:


> Thank you for going. Thanks for explaining your experiences many times.
> it is unpleasant yet a sober reminder, but reading some of the posts on here are unpleasant. That reminder seems necessary for some, the minority thank fully . People having to defend their choice to peacefully protest, being called rioters on another thread. I don't want anyone to have a nightmare - we have had many and we are very fearful.


.Were members here accused of rioting ? I may have missed some of the posts.
I dont even know how the thread turned from Cummings to the murder of LLoyd. perhaps it should have been in a separate thread, so we could give it full justice .


----------



## mrs phas

kimthecat said:


> I wanted to jump into the screen and stop that man being murdered, I though why didnt the people watching do anything but the same thing could happen to them if they intervened. .


Here in UK we are somewhat shielded, from the kind of firepower, than police in the USA have about their body, let's face it, it's still, outside of big inner cities, a rarity for one of us to see an armed policeman, even seeing a holstered tazer, amazes us

Seeing as his own colleagues, didn't see fit to interfer and save Floyd's life, I honestly believe that, any bystander, would have been in fear of their own life, had they taken a step towards that evil monster
Out there they carry guns as normal police life, with, if my memory serves right ( and I apologise if it doesn't) a shoot to kill, not wound, policy, tazers, flash bangs, and so forth,
Therefore, had any POC taken even a half step towards that monster,
they would've been shot on the spot,
a white person, may have gotten a couple of steps and a warning to stand back , before being confronted
That monster had it in his heart to kill that day, otherwise why not hear the pleas, why ignore him when pleading for his (dead) mother to save him? Had he not had that thought already, then why would he have knelt even more forcibly with each plea?


----------



## havoc

kimthecat said:


> I dont even know how the thread turned from Cummings to the murder of LLoyd. perhaps it should have been in a separate thread, so we could give it full justice


A fair point but I don't think we could come up with a better title for a separate thread.


----------



## kimthecat

havoc said:


> A fair point but I don't think we could come up with a better title for a separate thread.


Yeah , 

ETA Lets also not forget the abuse Asian people have suffered and still suffering.


----------



## SusieRainbow

As for asking why certain posts were allowed to remain, that one was edited following a report by someone who found it offensive.
We don't go scrolling through all the posts checking for anything which could be considered offensive and then edit them.
In my opinion this forum is NOT a suitable platform for images of police brutality which was clearly visible as soon as one looked at the post.
I abhor the violence as much as anybody but have no wish to see such scenes on here. It's not appropriate.
If anyone sees material they consider inappropriate or offensive *please report it.*


----------



## havoc

SusieRainbow said:


> As for asking why certain posts were allowed to remain, that one was edited following a report by someone who found it offensive.


I found it pretty offensive too. Is there any decent person doesn't? I accept there will be opinion that it has no place on a forum which wants to be seen as a place for fluffy kittens and cute puppies. It did though take a considerable effort to see that particular link and there was every chance given not to view.


----------



## SusieRainbow

havoc said:


> I found it pretty offensive too. Is there any decent person doesn't? I accept there will be opinion that it has no place on a forum which wants to be seen as a place for fluffy kittens and cute puppies. It did though take a considerable effort to see that particular link and there was every chance given not to view.


As son as I look at the post I see a man on the floor with a police officer kneeling on his neck. It's very obvious.
I hardly consider the forum to be full of fluff and rainbows,there are plenty of serious issues discussed at length.
Sorry,but if my decision to edit those images out is causing such anguish I could always close the thread. It's already been suggested that a seperate thread should exist, this one has got so far off the original topic it's irrelevant.


----------



## O2.0

rona said:


> We have seen it here too thankyou. We don't need to see it again on a pet forum.


Clearly some do as they can't understand why people feel the need to protest.

But seriously. What is more offensive? That I shared a video of what happened to Mr. Floyd, or that the murder of Mr. Floyd happened?

Because I'm seeing that people have a lot to say about a video (full of warnings) being shared, but not a lot of people seem to have much to say about a man being murdered. Funny that.



kimthecat said:


> I dont even know how the thread turned from Cummings to the murder of LLoyd. perhaps it should have been in a separate thread, so we could give it full justice .


It veered off course when someone (I think you ) mentioned Piers Morgan. Then I mentioned the awful exchange between him and Rudy Giuliani. Then @rottieboys said it was awesome and well done Rudy. Then I said "well done for what?" And then it turned in to Trump's handing of the protests and unrest (which is what the PM/RG argument was about), then @havoc said she's conflicted about the protests, then a bunch of other people joined in to outright or at least passively question/condemn the protests. Then after some frustrating (to me) exchanges I felt that reminding people what the protests were about was important, and posted the video which was clearly too much for someone who felt the need to report it. And how's that for an example of privilege (oh that's upsetting, cover my eyes for me).

I've spent the morning not social distancing (feel free to judge me on that), working alongside people of all colors and walks of life volunteering to help feed the community who have been hit very hard by unemployment due to a global pandemic. I had a productive conversation with a fellow volunteer who doesn't agree with the protests, we discussed it civilly and respectfully, I felt none of the anger and frustration that I feel reading through this thread. Had another conversation with someone who asked how OH is doing and how the kids and I are doing with him having to work the protests. It was a nice gesture and I was touched that he took a moment to think of us. I'm going to focus on the good and bow out of this thread right now as I'm finding it frustrating to say the least. 
I'm going to sit with my own discomfort and own my own feelings, as I humbly suggest others might want to do too because that's where growth comes from.


----------



## mrs phas

havoc said:


> I found it pretty offensive too. Is there any decent person doesn't? I accept there will be opinion that it has no place on a forum which wants to be seen as a place for fluffy kittens and cute puppies. It did though take a considerable effort to see that particular link and there was every chance given not to view.


however, children ( under 18s) that ARE allowed on this forum, are not reknown for their common sense and igoring something that says dont look adult content only

I havent been able to watch the video past the first 'I cant breathe'
took me straight back to 2014 and Eric Garner, another black man who died after police, that time, used a choke hold on him
his crime?
suspected of selling single cigarettes in Staten Island
he repeated the words 'I cant breathe' 11 times
At the time some are reported to have said
'if he could say he couldnt breath he was lying, you need to be breathing to speak'
and the fact nothing had changed, nor been learnt, in the last 6 years


----------



## rona

O2.0 said:


> But seriously. What is more offensive? That I shared a video of what happened to Mr. Floyd, or that the murder of Mr. Floyd happened?
> 
> Because I'm seeing that people have a lot to say about a video (full of warnings) being shared, but not a lot of people seem to have much to say about a man being murdered. Funny that.


Not funny at all. Just too horrendous to comment on. Seen the video as I would imagine 99% adults of the UK did. What can you say that hasn't already been said.
I have enough horror going on in my life without getting into discussions on another horror thank you


----------



## SusieRainbow

O2.0 said:


> Clearly some do as they can't understand why people feel the need to protest.
> 
> But seriously. What is more offensive? That I shared a video of what happened to Mr. Floyd, or that the murder of Mr. Floyd happened?
> 
> Because I'm seeing that people have a lot to say about a video (full of warnings) being shared, but not a lot of people seem to have much to say about a man being murdered. Funny that.
> 
> It veered off course when someone (I think you ) mentioned Piers Morgan. Then I mentioned the awful exchange between him and Rudy Giuliani. Then @rottieboys said it was awesome and well done Rudy. Then I said "well done for what?" And then it turned in to Trump's handing of the protests and unrest (which is what the PM/RG argument was about), then @havoc said she's conflicted about the protests, then a bunch of other people joined in to outright or at least passively question/condemn the protests. Then after some frustrating (to me) exchanges I felt that reminding people what the protests were about was important, and posted the video which was clearly too much for someone who felt the need to report it. And how's that for an example of privilege (oh that's upsetting, cover my eyes for me).
> 
> I've spent the morning not social distancing (feel free to judge me on that), working alongside people of all colors and walks of life volunteering to help feed the community who have been hit very hard by unemployment due to a global pandemic. I had a productive conversation with a fellow volunteer who doesn't agree with the protests, we discussed it civilly and respectfully, I felt none of the anger and frustration that I feel reading through this thread. Had another conversation with someone who asked how OH is doing and how the kids and I are doing with him having to work the protests. It was a nice gesture and I was touched that he took a moment to think of us. I'm going to focus on the good and bow out of this thread right now as I'm finding it frustrating to say the least.
> I'm going to sit with my own discomfort and own my own feelings, as I humbly suggest others might want to do too because that's where growth comes from.


I very much hope I can do the same . Believe me,there are times when being a moderator SUCKS !


----------



## kimthecat

@02.0 oops !  
I think if we'd started a direct thread people would have expressed their disgust more. The subject came up in a roundabout and it got onto horse and riots . I didnt express my disgust and sadness , that doesnt mean I didn't feel any . I just assume it goes with out saying.

Rishni Sunak , Chancellor of the Exchequer , has given his opinion .

I think they were right to let the demos go ahead , it would have been very difficult to stop them and caused more problems.


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> Rishni Sunak , Chancellor of the Exchequer , has given his opinion .


Makes me admire him even more


----------



## Pawscrossed

kimthecat said:


> How can you compare a photo with f*ck in it to watching a man being murdered? i would think most people in the country have seen it. Why watch it over and over again unless you enjoy seeing people die ?
> 
> ETA Unpleasant ? That doesnt begin to describe the film !


is 'unpleasant' at me? I assume the rest to be for @O2.0? Unpleasant is far from an appropriate description, most words are not acceptable for a family forum, are there any words?. I used unpleasant again to describe some of the posts here. Uncomfortable too. I hope this makes it clearer.



kimthecat said:


> .Were members here accused of rioting ? I may have missed some of the posts.
> I dont even know how the thread turned from Cummings to the murder of LLoyd. perhaps it should have been in a separate thread, so we could give it full justice .


No. The word rioters was used in relation to protestors but I can't locate it. Perhaps it was not here on this website.

I don't know how it has changed either.

My thanks to @SusieRainbow for your careful reply. That makes sense.


----------



## Pawscrossed

O2.0 said:


> Clearly some do as they can't understand why people feel the need to protest.
> 
> But seriously. What is more offensive? That I shared a video of what happened to Mr. Floyd, or that the murder of Mr. Floyd happened?
> 
> Because I'm seeing that people have a lot to say about a video (full of warnings) being shared, but not a lot of people seem to have much to say about a man being murdered. Funny that.
> 
> It veered off course when someone (I think you ) mentioned Piers Morgan. Then I mentioned the awful exchange between him and Rudy Giuliani. Then @rottieboys said it was awesome and well done Rudy. Then I said "well done for what?" And then it turned in to Trump's handing of the protests and unrest (which is what the PM/RG argument was about), then @havoc said she's conflicted about the protests, then a bunch of other people joined in to outright or at least passively question/condemn the protests. Then after some frustrating (to me) exchanges I felt that reminding people what the protests were about was important, and posted the video which was clearly too much for someone who felt the need to report it. And how's that for an example of privilege (oh that's upsetting, cover my eyes for me).
> 
> I've spent the morning not social distancing (feel free to judge me on that), working alongside people of all colors and walks of life volunteering to help feed the community who have been hit very hard by unemployment due to a global pandemic. I had a productive conversation with a fellow volunteer who doesn't agree with the protests, we discussed it civilly and respectfully, I felt none of the anger and frustration that I feel reading through this thread. Had another conversation with someone who asked how OH is doing and how the kids and I are doing with him having to work the protests. It was a nice gesture and I was touched that he took a moment to think of us. I'm going to focus on the good and bow out of this thread right now as I'm finding it frustrating to say the least.
> I'm going to sit with my own discomfort and own my own feelings, as I humbly suggest others might want to do too because that's where growth comes from.


thank you. I have been reading so much hope on social media. Lots of wonderful links. I come here and my heart sinks. I said this morning don't get lost here. Go and chat to the BIPOC community, albeit online or social distanced. Did anyone else do that? Seems like a lot of nit picking went on.

How bad the video is _isn't_ the damm point. Nobody needs to see it again but hell some need to remember it. A few of the useful threads have said about books, films, podcasts, magazines and websites. Be an ally. I'm gonna leave with this. I hope enough of you are on Facebook to view it. It's a nice video, a useful one, share it. Keep the message going. It's. Just as important as Rishi, because it gives us actions. Be well. Be strong.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=579944189573777


----------



## mrs phas

Pawscrossed said:


> How bad the video is _isn't_ the damm point. Nobody needs to see it again but hell some need to remember it.


give it another year or so
no one will remember him
nothing will have been learnt
moved forward
or
changed
even with the promise of the whole of the minneapolis police force being reviewed and ressurrected with the community,
nothing will change

No one remembered Eric Garner, despite, like Floyds death, someone had captured it all on camera
his killer, a policeman remember, was never prosecuted
the family accepted a 5.3 million pay off
his killer wasnt even fired until 2019, a whole 5+ years later
People dont learn, they dont 'move on'
they chose to forget,
until next time
and the next
and the next


----------



## lullabydream

mrs phas said:


> give it another year or so
> no one will remember him
> nothing will have been learnt
> moved forward
> or
> changed
> even with the promise of the whole of the minneapolis police force being reviewed and ressurrected with the community,
> nothing will change
> 
> No one remembered Eric Garner, despite, like Floyds death, someone had captured it all on camera
> his killer, a policeman remember, was never prosecuted
> the family accepted a 5.3 million pay off
> his killer wasnt even fired until 2019, a whole 5+ years later
> People dont learn, they dont 'move on'
> they chose to forget,
> until next time
> and the next
> and the next


That's it though.. Attitudes like that is why people think nothing changes, nothing will change.

Did you watch the video? It talks about historically how things have changed, but how much things still need to change.

I will give you another name as you are in the UK.. It's about about racial motivated murder that happened here in the UK 25 years ago.. The person who was murdered was Stephen Lawrence.. Remember him? His murder changed a lot and the case, and initial lack of prosecution was based on the fact that our own police force.. Yes the good old British police force was racist, and so to the CPS.


----------



## MollySmith

mrs phas said:


> give it another year or so
> no one will remember him
> nothing will have been learnt
> moved forward
> or
> changed
> even with the promise of the whole of the minneapolis police force being reviewed and ressurrected with the community,
> nothing will change
> 
> No one remembered Eric Garner, despite, like Floyds death, someone had captured it all on camera
> his killer, a policeman remember, was never prosecuted
> the family accepted a 5.3 million pay off
> his killer wasnt even fired until 2019, a whole 5+ years later
> People dont learn, they dont 'move on'
> they chose to forget,
> until next time
> and the next
> and the next


I really hope not, but I do appreciate what you mean - two years of Bristolians asking for Colston's statue working to be changed, even further back Brixton riots, before that centuries of slavery..... and over and over again. In our times, the protesters are blamed not those who caused it, who have power. What I love love love about this video - which I've shared on Facebook - is that talks about the power we all have so we can do something. It sounds a bit trite, but there's no better time really, we have the time in lockdown version 3 or whatever we're on.

I remain hopeful that it is time for change. I've learned loads this week that I really should have known before and I'd totally hate for that to end in apathy. I think that would be heartbreaking. I'm taking a break from here, I'm with @O2.0 and @Pawscrossed it's too sad and I've reached the 'angry muttering to myself' stage. I've had a useful evening reading 'How To Be An Anti-racist' which beats being here for the entertainment of others, you know what I mean..


----------



## kimthecat

mrs phas said:


> give it another year or so
> no one will remember him



No one remembers Blair Peach, a New Zealander killed in a demonstration in Southall. Hit over head by police , no one prosecuted.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/april/23/newsid_2523000/2523959.stm

No one remembers PC Blakelock killed by rioters in The Broadwater Farm riots , surrounded by a mob and stabbed to death.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Keith_Blakelock


----------



## Happy Paws2

People have short memories.


----------



## rona

If people just stopped the blame game.
You know, the people of today aren't responsible for what happen a century and a half ago or even what happened in a street in America, also many people have their own life struggles at this present time and have no extra to give to a cause, no matter how worthy or how imperative.
If you want to protest or educate then I applaud you, but just because I have nothing to give, doesn't mean I'm not aware, not appalled, don't care or am some how condoning what happened, or is happening, that is utter tosh and I am offended at the inference that I am.
I'm sure there are many others having their integrity questioned on this that are just fanning your flames by not being as vocal rather than not being as appalled.
Sorry,but those blaming others are doing no favours to their cause


----------



## Cleo38

rona said:


> If people just stopped the blame game.
> You know, the people of today aren't responsible for what happen a century and a half ago or even what happened in a street in America, also many people have their own life struggles at this present time and have no extra to give to a cause, no matter how worthy or how imperative.
> If you want to protest or educate then I applaud you, but just because I have nothing to give, doesn't mean I'm not aware, not appalled, don't care or am some how condoning what happened, that is utter tosh and I am offended at the inference that I am.
> I'm sure there are many others having their integrity questioned on this that are just fanning your flames by not being as vocal rather than not being as appalled.
> Sorry,but those blaming others are doing no favours to their cause


No they are not responsible as such but some people are (were) still benefitting from horrors from the past. In 1833 the UK government pledged £20 million to reimburse owners of slaves when slavery was abolished. This was a huge sum, so huge that it took 182 years to pay off & finally stopped in 2015. So only 5 years ago we were still paying people who traded in slavery … I find this horrific.


----------



## rona

Cleo38 said:


> No they are not responsible as such but some people are (were) still benefitting from horrors from the past. In 1833 the UK government pledged £20 million to reimburse owners of slaves when slavery was abolished. This was a huge sum, so huge that it took 182 years to pay off & finally stopped in 2015. So only 5 years ago we were still paying people who traded in slavery … I find this horrific.


It was money paid to end the slave trade over the empire, a trade that was still rife across much of the rest of the world. If that was the way to end the trade at that moment in time then those that elected to pay that price, as far as I can see should be applauded.
I know everyone here would be willing to pay even if it was now if you knew that that was the only way to end slavery today 
You must always remember that they were very different times with very different attitudes, and the people of today, even the families of slave traders are not to blame 
I'd like to know just how many were still accepting the money in the twentieth century. Do you know?


----------



## Elles

Cleo38 said:


> No they are not responsible as such but some people are (were) still benefitting from horrors from the past. In 1833 the UK government pledged £20 million to reimburse owners of slaves when slavery was abolished. This was a huge sum, so huge that it took 182 years to pay off & finally stopped in 2015. So only 5 years ago we were still paying people who traded in slavery … I find this horrific.


Were we? Or were the government paying off a loan taken out to pay to stop slavery. People back in those days clearly did everything they could to stop slavery, even borrowing millions of pounds that took years to pay back. Sounds as though they did more within their culture at the time than we do to stop modern day slavery.

I read recently of a 12 year old slave who was murdered by her owners for letting their parrots get away when she cleaned the cage. She was called a 'domestic servant' in India. Our farmers in this country still use what I would consider slave labour from other countries and trafficking is rife throughout Europe. I'm not responsible for what my forefathers may or may not have done. What hope for the kids of Rose and Fred West, if the colour of my skin and place of birth makes me to blame for something that rich folk did hundreds of years ago.

I'm one of the one percent who didn't watch the video. I don't need to see video or images of someone being murdered.


----------



## Cleo38

rona said:


> It was money paid to end the slave trade over the empire, a trade that was still rife across much of the rest of the world. If that was the way to end the trade at that moment in time then those that elected to pay that price, as far as I can see should be applauded.
> I know everyone here would be willing to pay even if it was now if you knew that that was the only way to end slavery today
> You must always remember that they were very different times with very different attitudes, and the people of today, even the families of slave traders are not to blame
> I'd like to know just how many were still accepting the money in the twentieth century. Do you know?


Yes, I understand that it was paid to help compensate slave traders but I don't think it should be applauded at all, IMO it shows just how people were still benefitting from the horrors they inflicted on others


----------



## kimthecat

@rona big hugs.


----------



## MissSpitzMum

It was a bad decision (to reimburse slave owners) for a good reason (to abolish slavery) when there were no good decisions. It avoided a civil war which would have been catastrophic over a large empire. I don't think we can chastise people of the past for how they implemented what was huge societal change. Remember in the UK we had a long history of serfdom prior to the slave trade and forced labour during, it was monumentous for our nation to accept everyone should be free.

The loan was recently paid off, but people were not still being reimbursed as I understand it.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Every empire was built on slavery, Should Italy to blamed for the slave trade that built Rome. I saw a program on TV the other day and they reckon over the years of the Rome empire they had 200 million slaves. 

Terrible as it is, we can't change history.


----------



## Pawscrossed

kimthecat said:


> No one remembers Blair Peach, a New Zealander killed in a demonstration in Southall. Hit over head by police , no one prosecuted.
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/april/23/newsid_2523000/2523959.stm
> 
> No one remembers PC Blakelock killed by rioters in The Broadwater Farm riots , surrounded by a mob and stabbed to death.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Keith_Blakelock


Who is no one? People do not forget. I'm of the age when I remember Blair Peach on the news.

Just as now, intervention would have prevented the tragic outcomes. Here's a bit more about Broadwater Farm and the living conditions. It wasn't fit for animals.

https://municipaldreams.wordpress.com/2017/11/07/broadwater_farm_part_i/


----------



## bearcub

I don't think white people living today are responsible for how black slaves were treated. 

I do think white people are responsible for educating themselves about a) the horrors of it and b) how we still benefit from its legacy. This should start in primary school.


----------



## kimthecat

I hope this isnt true but its rumoured on Twitter that Tommy Robinson is going head a protest , for crying out loud. That's all we need


----------



## kimthecat

bearcub said:


> I don't think white people living today are responsible for how black slaves were treated.
> 
> I do think white people are responsible for educating themselves about a) the horrors of it and b) how we still benefit from its legacy. This should start in primary school.


Good idea. talking about schools , I dont know about all schools but there is a policy here in primary schools here that any racist remarks are reported and the head will see the childs parents etc .


----------



## Cleo38

kimthecat said:


> I hope this isnt true but its rumoured on Twitter that Tommy Robinson is going head a protest , for crying out loud. That's all we need


He always has to muscle in …. I posted recently about a young woman on FB showing horrific injuries & accusing local Asian men in the Barrow area of abusing her & being part of a grooming ring. The family were running a campaign in the area & raising awareness of this & then TR showed up, tried to stir up racial hatred (which it seems most people were trying very hard not to incite) & completely drew away from the whole focus which was the safety & well being of vulnerable young women


----------



## MissSpitzMum

kimthecat said:


> Good idea. talking about schools , I dont know about all schools but there is a policy here in primary schools here that any racist remarks are reported and the head will see the childs parents etc .


Racism in all schools is reported (at least in all schools I've worked at!) and is taken *very* seriously. Some forms of racism will also fall under our Prevent duties (looking for far-right involvement).

As for teaching about slavery in schools;

I have taught empire & slavery as a topic, and all schools I've worked at make the most of black history month. The kids are taught the horrors of slavery - though I wouldn't like them to learn about it in primary school. When teaching it you have to be mindful of 'othering' BAME kids in the classroom purely by the nature of the topic, and primary school kids I don't feel are robust enough.


----------



## havoc

Cleo38 said:


> Yes, I understand that it was paid to help compensate slave traders but I don't think it should be applauded at all, IMO it shows just how people were still benefitting from the horrors they inflicted on others


I'd love to agree with you because it doesn't seem right to 'reward' anyone involved in the slave trade. There's a bit of me thinking it was worth just about anything to stop it though and if that's what it took then that's what it took. I'm sort of prepared to let that go (somewhat reluctantly) in order to move forward and concentrate on a better future.


----------



## havoc

MissSpitzMum said:


> When teaching it you have to be mindful of 'othering' BAME kids in the classroom purely by the nature of the topic


It's a very uncomfortable subject for many of us, I don't argue with that. Do they not feel 'othered' already? Has anyone asked? I'm sure they will soon enough when they get a bit older.
_between April 2018 and March 2019, there were 4 stop and searches for every 1,000 White people, compared with 38 for every 1,000 Black people
_


----------



## kimthecat

.Its sad to see the divides between races , How can anyone justify bring part of anti racism campaign yet say such nasty and racist things to another ethnic person . 
Lots of tweets on twitter like this .


Mahyar Tousi
@MahyarTousi
These lefties managed to call me a curry munching Indian and an Arab terrorist while defending their anti-racism campaign all at the same time in Twitter thread

Talk about multitasking. FACT CHECK: I'm a British freedom lover from south London with a Persian background.

I would show the photo he took of the tweets but it too abusive and has swear words in it.


----------



## kimthecat

Im off twitter for a while . its horrible to see the hate between all parties.

Anyway , where is Cummings? I swear he is hiding in my neck of the woods , three days running we've had police helicopters and an army helicopter going round and round and round . I hope his eyesight is ok now !


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> Anyway , where is Cummings?


Still in his ruddy job :Rage


----------



## kimthecat

@rona I bet he thinks we will forget about him with all the recent events .


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> @rona I bet he thinks we will forget about him with all the recent events .


Not only do I have the hide of a rhinoceros, I have the memory of an Elephant in situations like this. 
Unfortunately, I can't just let things go and forgive


----------



## rona

Oh dear Oh dear
https://www.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund

How we'll spend the funds!

- Work towards making change at the level of law.
- Developing and distributing educational resources.
- Developing and delivering healing practices in black communities. 
- Developing and delivering training, police monitoring and strategies for the abolition of police. Working alongside existing anti-racist organisations to strengthen the wider movement across the UK.
- Supporting the United Family & Friends Campaign (UFFC) in accessing justice for friends and loved ones killed at the hands of British police.
- Providing emergency relief to black communities bearing the brunt of the Coronavirus crisis


----------



## bearcub

rona said:


> Oh dear Oh dear
> https://www.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund
> 
> How we'll spend the funds!
> 
> - Work towards making change at the level of law.
> - Developing and distributing educational resources.
> - Developing and delivering healing practices in black communities.
> - Developing and delivering training, police monitoring and strategies for the abolition of police. Working alongside existing anti-racist organisations to strengthen the wider movement across the UK.
> - Supporting the United Family & Friends Campaign (UFFC) in accessing justice for friends and loved ones killed at the hands of British police.
> - Providing emergency relief to black communities bearing the brunt of the Coronavirus crisis


I hadn't actually seen the fundraiser. Thanks for sharing


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> Not only do I have the hide of a rhinoceros, I have the memory of an Elephant in situations like this.
> Unfortunately, I can't just let things go and forgive


I don't blame you.

RE the fund. Im sure people here will donate . Im not as Ive made a lot of donations recently captain Tom , Chester Zoo etc and had some big bills come in, vets etc One large donation was to my nephews friends family , his friend had cancer and died of Covid 19, he was only 38. My nephew started go fund me and raised £5000 to pay for his funeral .


----------



## Elles

Not the kind of group I’d donate to.


----------



## lullabydream

rona said:


> Still in his ruddy job :Rage


I thought he was taking down those few concrete blocks he called didn't call a second home, but didn't have planning permission for..

You know not the nicest place he was staying at, out in the countryside, own private woodland and also omitted the fact his son possibly and whole family had access to a private swimming pool.. But it's just concrete blocks.. I think most people call them bricks to be honest but you know technicalities....


----------



## mrs phas

rona said:


> Oh dear Oh dear
> https://www.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund
> 
> How we'll spend the funds!
> 
> - Work towards making change at the level of law.
> - Developing and distributing educational resources.
> - Developing and delivering healing practices in black communities.
> - Developing and delivering training, police monitoring and strategies for the abolition of police. Working alongside existing anti-racist organisations to strengthen the wider movement across the UK.
> - Supporting the United Family & Friends Campaign (UFFC) in accessing justice for friends and loved ones killed at the hands of British police.
> - Providing emergency relief to black communities bearing the brunt of the Coronavirus crisis





> We build deep relationships across the diaspora and strategise to challenge the rise of the authoritarian right-wing across the world, from Brazil to Britain.


not Albania to Zaire then, obviously only got B countries at their finger tips or is it only B for black countries that count * although im pretty sure blacks in Brazil are not in the minority*



> Black communities are hardest hit by the Coronavirus pandemic. Black people are dying at up to four times the rate of their white counterparts. This is racism.


how do we re-educate a virus? do we do it clockwork orange stylee, or, should we be even more insidious?



> Black workers are paid up to 20% less than their white counterparts: that is the racial wage, and part of the cost of being black and brown in Britain. This is racism.


no not racism, illegal and trade unions would be s41T hot on that, especially as many union leaders in the UK ( which this 'group' say they represent) work community, are BAME

Hopefully, there are many alternate groups, and 'representative' parties, that do not make themselves look so foolish and stupid


----------



## Pawscrossed

Registered Charities who are accepting donations.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...e-uk-stephen-lawrence-stop-hate-a9544786.html


----------



## Pawscrossed

Reminder, move from the fear zone, best donation to make.


----------



## bearcub

I think the suspicion or scepticism of the Black Lives Matter movement is exactly the kind of thing white people need to challenge themselves on.


----------



## Elles

I read their webpage. I don’t agree with them or their aims.


----------



## bearcub

I don't think anyone should be expecting anyone to donate to anything. Particularly not at the moment. Times are hard for all of us. 

I do think at the very least though, white people should (for want of a nicer expression) just stop sticking their noses in. We should accept that the Black Lives Matter movement is run by people who know what they are doing and absolutely know what they are talking about. We can offer a helping hand for sure, but not try to lead or steer.


----------



## O2.0

rona said:


> If people just stopped the blame game.
> You know, the people of today aren't responsible for what happen a century and a half ago or even what happened in a street in America, also many people have their own life struggles at this present time and have no extra to give to a cause, no matter how worthy or how imperative.
> If you want to protest or educate then I applaud you, but just because I have nothing to give, doesn't mean I'm not aware, not appalled, don't care or am some how condoning what happened, or is happening, that is utter tosh and I am offended at the inference that I am.
> I'm sure there are many others having their integrity questioned on this that are just fanning your flames by not being as vocal rather than not being as appalled.
> Sorry,but those blaming others are doing no favours to their cause


I would like to address this in the light of the link you posted saying "oh dear oh dear."

Raising awareness and calling for policy change does not equal blaming white people for anything. Sure, you can blame individuals for policies they were instrumental in putting in to place, or I can blame Trump directly for inciting more unrest with racist dog whistle comments like "when the looting starts the shooting starts" or instructing his minions to clear the way for him by assaulting peaceful protesters so that he can pose in front of a church with a bible. But even when I blame Trump directly for making things much worse right now, even then, I'm not including those who voted for him in any of this.

If you have nothing to give, that's fine. We're all care about different things and I'm okay with that. I actually don't agree that silence is being complicit because most acts of real support happen in ways most people don't see.
But if you truly have nothing to say or contribute to the discussion, then genuinely have nothing to say or contribute. Don't follow that up with a link to a go fund me for BLM as if it were a bad thing. That's a share, that's a contribution.

If you (general you) don't agree with BLM that's okay too. I respect people will have different views and opinions about what is going on now. 
But if you're going to claim that your silence on George Floyd's death was benevolent, it does jar when you suddenly find your voice when it comes to speaking out against the movement his death sparked.

And if that offends anyone, maybe take a minute to examine why instead of jumping on the defensive without taking a moment to self-reflect. Sometimes being offended isn't such a bad thing.


----------



## O2.0

mrs phas said:


> how do we re-educate a virus? do we do it clockwork orange stylee, or, should we be even more insidious?


The reality is that the virus is affecting black people at alarming rates in contrast to white people. 
Education could be something as simple as making sure those studying the virus include efforts to study why black people are more affected. 
It could mean looking in to possible reasons why black communities are so affected. Is it demographic, is it environmental, is it biological, is it all of the above. 
It could mean encouraging those in positions of power making policies for reopening and moving forward to examine the statistics in black communities and include them in their recommendations.

Just like back in the day when doctors studied heart disease, they based all their information on what they had discovered in men. Never considering that women not only also get heart disease but may present with vastly different symptoms and risk factors. We are still working to rectify that gap in knowledge.

Education when it comes to Covid-19 and black communities is simply that, not allowing that knowledge gap to happen in the first place.


----------



## kimthecat

“... every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.” George Orwell, 1984


----------



## bearcub

kimthecat said:


> "... every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." George Orwell, 1984


I have seen this quote referenced quite a lot over the last few days. I don't get its relevance. Is it a commentary on that Colston statue being pulled down in Bristol?


----------



## Jobeth

bearcub said:


> I have seen this quote referenced quite a lot over the last few days. I don't get its relevance. Is it a commentary on that Colston statue being pulled down in Bristol?


It is as the main character in 1984 worked for the 'ministry of truth' and his role was to rewrite history to conform with the every changing politics of the party/Big Brother.


----------



## Elles

O2.0 said:


> speaking out against the movement his death sparked.


The organisation BLM is a socialist, activist organisation, lobbying for an end to the nuclear family, capitalism, heteronormativity, the patriarchy, etc. The U.K. wing has raised over £1m in just a few days to further it's political aims, which now includes abolishing our police force. It's been going for a few years now and isn't "the movement his death sparked". It's the organisation in the fundraising Rona linked to.

If they achieve their aims it would affect all of us, so darn right I'll speak out against them, or at least ask people if they're sure they know what they're donating to. What happened to listening to people who look and think differently, now we have to hush up? :Singing


----------



## rona

It's like many of these things. It's something wrong emerging from something right. Don't be blinded by the label, read beyond the title.

This isn't the BLM that grew from a virtuous place and what many are aspiring too

Sorry, I won't accept. I'll listen but not blindly follow


----------



## Calvine

Police tasered a guy (Javier Ambler) in the States last year after he was pulled over for some minor driving offence. He was tasered four times despite saying he could not breathe and had heart disease. This was while being filmed for a TV network (tho' obviously it was not shown). I do not recall any outcry here like this one, tho' maybe there was in the States. The guy who died was black, and the officer in charge of the event, Deputy JJ Johnson, was also black; maybe that has something to do with it.. Maybe there were protests here, but I cannot remember if that is the case.


----------



## rottieboys

kimthecat said:


> @rona I bet he thinks we will forget about him with all the recent events .


What are you going to do?


----------



## kimthecat

rottieboys said:


> What are you going to do?


What are *you* going to do ?


----------



## kimthecat

Perhaps they could replace the statues with William Wilberforce. One sad thing is that, if I remember correctly, the abolishment of slavery was delayed 20 years due to us being at war with the French .


----------



## rona

O2.0 said:


> But if you truly have nothing to say or contribute to the discussion, then genuinely have nothing to say or contribute. Don't follow that up with a link to a go fund me for BLM as if it were a bad thing. That's a share, that's a contribution.
> 
> If you (general you) don't agree with BLM that's okay too. I respect people will have different views and opinions about what is going on now.


There you go again.......... blame...........you truly do not read what I write do you, only what you think I write


----------



## kimthecat

Calls to unfund the police in London . Im not sure exactly what thats mean and what body they would replace the police with or how it would help. 
Mayor Khan made huge cuts to the police not long ago. The crime rate is dreadful and knife and shooting crimes out of control. 
Thats also one thing that annoys me about rallies carrying on for days and days is that it takes the police off the streets .

This isnt really to do with the subject of the thread but any murder is shocking and saddening, These two women were murdered in a park in Wembley , heartbreaking and I feel for their mum .  I hope they find who did it. 
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/wembley-deaths-bodies-murdered-sisters-22162741


----------



## rottieboys

kimthecat said:


> What are *you* going to do ?


Nothing...


----------



## kimthecat

rottieboys said:


> Nothing...


Well , if someone can give me a sock of his , my dogs could track him down  No not really!


----------



## rottieboys

Elles said:


> The organisation BLM is a socialist, activist organisation, lobbying for an end to the nuclear family, capitalism, heteronormativity, the patriarchy, etc. The U.K. wing has raised over £1m in just a few days to further it's political aims, which now includes abolishing our police force. It's been going for a few years now and isn't "the movement his death sparked". It's the organisation in the fundraising Rona linked to.
> 
> If they achieve their aims it would affect all of us, so darn right I'll speak out against them, or at least ask people if they're sure they know what they're donating to. What happened to listening to people who look and think differently, now we have to hush up? :Singing


I think this weekend it is going to be a riot in London. Far rights are going to try to protect the Churchill statue I hope the police can control the crowd


----------



## mrs phas

rottieboys said:


> I think this weekend it is going to be a riot in London. Far rights are going to try to protect the Churchill statue I hope the police can control the crowd


Thugs v thugs
Rioting has nothing to do with peaceful, but vocal, protests and undoes any good being done
I'm going to bet that most, on both sides, will be white and that, if it happens, that will be the focus of the news, rather than the eloquence of speakers in the real protest talking of fairness, justice, equality and recognition
Why this country have to emulate the lowest denomination, rather than rise above and show real empathy and a way to move forward, I just don't understand


----------



## kimthecat

Racism needs to be tackled but Id also like to see more energy put into helping African countries tackle their problems. 
Very sadly , One in three African children are stunted and hunger accounts for almost half of all child deaths across the continent, an Addis Ababa-based think tank has warned.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-...deaths-in-africa-stem-from-hunger-study-shows


----------



## rottieboys

kimthecat said:


> Racism needs to be tackled but Id also like to see more energy put into helping African countries tackle their problems.
> Very sadly , One in three African children are stunted and hunger accounts for almost half of all child deaths across the continent, an Addis Ababa-based think tank has warned.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/global-...deaths-in-africa-stem-from-hunger-study-shows


It is very sad. But I agree, More needs to done about that...


----------



## Happy Paws2

Now this is getting silly...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-52990714


----------



## mrs phas

Happy Paws2 said:


> Now this is getting silly...
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-52990714


Airbrushing history doesn't mean it didn't happen
We should learn from it, it's the only way to move forwards

For example, yesterday I learnt that the reason, African Americans call us white crackers,
is nothing to do with crackers, the biscuits, being white and salty
But
It stems from days of slaves, when white men (mostly) wielded the whips and the 'crack' the whip made

That knowledge came from looking for the root of the word in history, and can now understand why it's such a derogatory term
Yes, perhaps I should be ashamed that I didn't know this before yesterday,
but, 
because of history, being out there, obtainable and real, I know it now


----------



## Pawscrossed

rottieboys said:


> I think this weekend it is going to be a riot in London. Far rights are going to try to protect the Churchill statue I hope the police can control the crowd


Taking down statues is removing the tributes that honour those who have profited from slavery or racism. It doesn't remove the story.

Who do you think causes the mythical riots? The people who have been oppressed? Those who continue to be scared of what they don't understand?

I'm laying this straight with you. The only people causing violence at the protest we went to were a group of white middle aged men. The police controlled them perfectly by cautioning them.



Happy Paws2 said:


> Now this is getting silly...
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-52990714


HBO are going to return it to the screen. When they do, it will have a historical note so that viewers understand the history it portrays so we learn. The stars of 'The Help' have asked people not to make it the most popular Netflix film. Both Gone With The Wind and The Help tell the stories from white views. Most may know it's not correct, but it's Donald Trump's favourite film. He probably thinks it's a documentary.

Tea brands PG Tips and Yorkshire have asked people not to buy their tea. Lord Sainsburys is reviewing status that honour those who profited from slavery. These are big names leading the way. They aren't waffling on social media. They are doing and risk loosing customers. There are 'people' boycotting Sainsburys because they are daring to talk about slavery and black lives matter. It's the reversal of no dogs, no blacks.

It's bloody fantastic.


----------



## Pawscrossed

deleted


----------



## Pawscrossed

mrs phas said:


> Airbrushing history doesn't mean it didn't happen
> We should learn from it, it's the only way to move forwards
> 
> For example, yesterday I learnt that the reason, African Americans call us white crackers,
> is nothing to do with crackers, the biscuits, being white and salty
> But
> It stems from days of slaves, when white men (mostly) wielded the whips and the 'crack' the whip made
> 
> That knowledge came from looking for the root of the word in history, and can now understand why it's such a derogatory term
> Yes, perhaps I should be ashamed that I didn't know this before yesterday,
> but,
> because of history, being out there, obtainable and real, I know it now


Wow, I didn't know this. Thank you. Language so matters. It goes back to something I read. If we can use the internet to real the Daily Mail, we can use it to look up Anti-racism and be all the better for it.


----------



## kimthecat

mrs phas said:


> Airbrushing history doesn't mean it didn't happen
> We should learn from it, it's the only way to move forwards
> 
> For example, yesterday I learnt that the reason, African Americans call us white crackers,
> is nothing to do with crackers, the biscuits, being white and salty
> But
> It stems from days of slaves, when white men (mostly) wielded the whips and the 'crack' the whip made
> 
> That knowledge came from looking for the root of the word in history, and can now understand why it's such a derogatory term
> Yes, perhaps I should be ashamed that I didn't know this before yesterday,
> but,
> because of history, being out there, obtainable and real, I know it now


Thats interesting . I didn't know that Americans called us that . Dont see why we should be ashamed about not knowing that term . Lots of terms used in the States arent perhaps used or know here. Rube is a bit of am insult for country folk but not known here so much.


----------



## O2.0

Pawscrossed said:


> Wow, I didn't know this. Thank you. Language so matters. It goes back to something I read. If we can use the internet to real the Daily Mail, we can use it to look up Anti-racism and be all the better for it.


There's a little bit more to the story than that. It's actually a very interesting term IMO  
https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/07/01/197644761/word-watch-on-crackers

And yes, taking down a statue doesn't erase history. Read a damn book!


----------



## kimthecat

Well I dunno. Words change. 
Other use of the word cracker - saying a girl is a cracker meant she was hot. Saying someone is crackers meant they were crazy. 
The word coloured is now racist but person of colour isnt. In my day it became racist to say black and coloured was polite . Then it swapped around. 
Also seen on Twitter young black Americans not wanting to called African Americans because they don't associate with Africa .


----------



## Elles

rottieboys said:


> I think this weekend it is going to be a riot in London. Far rights are going to try to protect the Churchill statue I hope the police can control the crowd


What happened to democracy and due process? What makes someone 'far right'? Being a football supporter and sitting on the plinth of a statue, protesting about it being defaced? Being called 'far right' by the Mail?

Never heard of white crackers. There will be more derogatory, divisive terms I haven't heard of I expect.

I have no problem with people taking down statues, if they go through the proper channels and gain consent. Rioting, defacing and destroying I do have a problem with. People have no need to be rioting and tearing down statues.


----------



## Elles

So, it turns out that the guys defending and cleaning the Churchill statue were a small group of apolitical, local, ex army veterans.


----------



## mrs phas

Pawscrossed said:


> Taking down statues is removing the tributes that honour those who have profited from slavery or racism. It doesn't remove the story.
> 
> Who do you think causes the mythical riots? The people who have been oppressed? Those who continue to be scared of what they don't understand?
> 
> I'm laying this straight with you. The only people causing violence at the protest we went to were a group of white middle aged men. The police controlled them perfectly by cautioning them.
> 
> HBO are going to return it to the screen. When they do, it will have a historical note so that viewers understand the history it portrays so we learn. The stars of 'The Help' have asked people not to make it the most popular Netflix film. Both Gone With The Wind and The Help tell the stories from white views. Most may know it's not correct, but it's Donald Trump's favourite film. He probably thinks it's a documentary.
> 
> Tea brands PG Tips and Yorkshire have asked people not to buy their tea. Lord Sainsburys is reviewing status that honour those who profited from slavery. These are big names leading the way. They aren't waffling on social media. They are doing and risk loosing customers. There are 'people' boycotting Sainsburys because they are daring to talk about slavery and black lives matter. It's the reversal of no dogs, no blacks.
> 
> It's bloody fantastic.


Don't forget no Irish
It wasn't just black people that suffered discrimination

Edited as my original post could be misconstrued and twisted by those who like to play mind games


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> So, it turns out that the guys defending and cleaning the Churchill statue were a small group of apolitical, local, ex army veterans.


I'm not keeping up with all this.
Are they ok?


----------



## shadowmare

kimthecat said:


> Racism needs to be tackled but Id also like to see more energy put into helping African countries tackle their problems.
> Very sadly , One in three African children are stunted and hunger accounts for almost half of all child deaths across the continent, an Addis Ababa-based think tank has warned.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/global-...deaths-in-africa-stem-from-hunger-study-shows


Maybe you should tell that to the PM as his interests lie elsewhere:

https://newint.org/features/2020/02/26/bleak-future-british-foreign-aid


----------



## mrs phas

I presume all mention and icons to queen victoria will be next
After all she's the most imperial of imperialists, and British colonies grew, and widened, more under her reign than any other, before or after


----------



## shadowmare

The whole situation with statues reminds me a little bit about communist statues being removed in Lithuania. The massive things for Lenin and Stalin were removed in early 90s after the country regained independence. The statues weren't dumped - they were all put into this quirky political park that every every child visits at some point in primary school. That's a way of teaching history. A statue of a slave trader doesn't need to be sat in the local square surely there's people more deserving to have a memorial for them? 
Also fun fact: the last communist statues were taken down 5 years ago. These depicted Red Army soldiers who helped defeat Nazi Germany and I believe some regular farmer folks who were overwhelmed with joy for their help. All four of them were dismantled and taken away. The only upset people talking about "destroying history" were a few historians, local older generation Russians and some Russian politicians.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> I have no problem with people taking down statues, if they go through the proper channels and gain consent. Rioting, defacing and destroying I do have a problem with. People have no need to be rioting and tearing down statues.


People have been trying to do something about that statue for _decades_. Even just getting a second plaque added educating people about his wealth primarily coming from his role in the slave trade and slave produced goods has been blocked politically many times.

Incidentally, the ACTUAL plaque on it ("Erected by citizens of Bristol as a memorial of one of the most virtuous and wise sons of their city AD 1895") is a lie - a standard piece of Victorian patriarchal ficton written over 170 years after his death. The statue was proposed (and more than half paid for) by wealthy men seeking to give the city a home born father figure. He wasnt even _that _great a philanthropist - he was just handy.

Would I have preferred it if the statue had been removed legally? Well, yes, of course. Do I care that it has been removed instead by direct public action? No, not really. I honestly don't think anything significant would have been done about it any time soon otherwise. Hopefully it will stop here, and other places will realise that some of the other controversial statues also need removing to somewhere more appropriate, such as museums.

Incidentally, I'm also not fussed about the graffiti on the Churchill statue. It can be cleaned, and Churchill WAS strongly prejudiced against many non-white races, as well an advocate for eugenics. That he was also a great war leader shouldn't lead us to gloss over his many flaws.


----------



## Happy Paws2

This whole thing is going crazy.


----------



## kimthecat

shadowmare said:


> Maybe you should tell that to the PM as his interests lie elsewhere:
> 
> https://newint.org/features/2020/02/26/bleak-future-british-foreign-aid


I'll mention it too him next time he's in the area .  Disgraceful though, however that doesnt stop individuals or charities contributing. I really hope this doesnt happen.


----------



## Elles

How come Labour government, labour councils and academia didn’t do something about unwanted statues and I’ve never heard of any robust campaigns to get rid of them before?

If enough people are interested and passionate, in a democracy something usually gets done. Which makes me think not enough people were interested, or passionate and a minority mob rule can’t stand. Take it to Parliament, if we want change. Priti Patel took questions in the house from a black female MP and an Ethnic female MP. That’s 3 bame females debating racism and sexism in Britain today, in British Parliament. How far we’ve come, no need to burn the house down.


----------



## kimthecat

Apparently , John Edward Taylor who founded the Guardian in 1821 was a cotton merchant . :Meh
Will they apologise ?


----------



## Jonescat

Not sure about anywhere else but in Bristol the council had tried to change the words on the placard and the unelected Merchant Venturers had stopped it. It was a huge and living issue in the city. Democracy had failed. 

The house isn't being burned down, but the furniture is being re-arranged. About time too.


----------



## bearcub

I would like to offer every white person on here a challenge:

Before you type, just pause for a second to think why a black person might have a different view from you. This doesn't mean that you have to assume what a black person might say or think, just _why_ they might think differently to a white person.

I am confident that many of us wouldn't be so unsure about change if we just took that moment.


----------



## MollySmith

Elles said:


> What happened to democracy and due process? What makes someone 'far right'? Being a football supporter and sitting on the plinth of a statue, protesting about it being defaced? Being called 'far right' by the Mail?
> 
> Never heard of white crackers. There will be more derogatory, divisive terms I haven't heard of I expect.
> 
> I have no problem with people taking down statues, if they go through the proper channels and gain consent. Rioting, defacing and destroying I do have a problem with. People have no need to be rioting and tearing down statues.


This was pretty much what the Daily Wail said. Thing is, people have been trying. For two years and more in Bristol, led by the mayor. It's not about rewriting history books, it's saying this awful period of history happened. All 'these' places were built and 'these businesses' founded on the torture of others and systemic racism. It's saying this happened and we're being open about it. Many companies are thinking carefully of their stance. I've been updating several websites for clients today and yesterday which simply say they are reviewing, thinking and learning before they release a statement so they do so with respect to the BIPOC community and show action. Just because they haven't yet, doesn't mean they won't.

I expect there are many other terms. anti-racist is the one I've learned, and how not to settle for I'm not a racist'. It's one I recommend looking up and reading about. It's genuinely really very enlightening. It should and ought to temper this thread and check us on white privileged. Well said @bearcub Btw.

Here's more on Colston I don't think it require any more explanation, it's pretty clear why official routes completely fail.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269713381973516290


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> Apparently , John Edward Taylor who founded the Guardian in 1821 was a cotton merchant . :Meh
> Will they apologise ?


Ask them. It's not very clear in history books and indirect but I'd assume there is a link. He may not have bought and sold slaves but the cotton industry certain benefitted from them. I guess it depends how far ones goes but staying silent is a bigger crime. Them I mean, not you in case I wasn't clear 

https://spartacus-educational.com/PRtaylor.htm


----------



## MollySmith

Elles said:


> How come Labour government, labour councils and academia didn't do something about unwanted statues and I've never heard of any robust campaigns to get rid of them before?
> 
> If enough people are interested and passionate, in a democracy something usually gets done. Which makes me think not enough people were interested, or passionate and a minority mob rule can't stand. Take it to Parliament, if we want change. Priti Patel took questions in the house from a black female MP and an Ethnic female MP. That's 3 bame females debating racism and sexism in Britain today, in British Parliament. How far we've come, no need to burn the house down.


Marvin Rees, the Major of Bristol is a Labour MP.

Here's more on diversity in the 2019 election. Good but always room for improvement
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50808536

Johnson's learning in racism has a way to go. Remember piccaninnies*? If anti-racism is to call people out then we (society I mean) can't forget it. It might not all be recent, but surely nobody here on PF has ever used a term? There are doubtless other MP's on all parties making errors but if anti-racism is also to apologise and show learning, I hope they do. But Johnson is the PM.

A minority doesn't mean less important. It can mean oppressed, fearful, unrepresented. There is always more house burning to do, we can all benefit from more knowledge. By learning more we can use our position of the majority to push MPs and political parties into action.
https://www.businessinsider.com/bor...omments-bumboys-piccaninnies-2019-6?r=US&IR=T
https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...ritish-poc-racism-boris-johnson-a9249891.html

but then again,I speak from white privilege, so WTF do I know! I sadly don't know if we have any BIPOC members on the forum or who are contributing to this discussion. I don't _need_ to know but I would like to think they feel supported in doing so.

*apologies, I squirmed when typing that. It's shite.


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> Ask them. It's not very clear in history books and indirect but I'd assume there is a link. He may not have bought and sold slaves but the cotton industry certain benefitted from them. I guess it depends how far ones goes but staying silent is a bigger crime. Them I mean, not you in case I wasn't clear
> 
> https://spartacus-educational.com/PRtaylor.htm


I found an article written by one of his descendants an she states he was a cotton trader so I assume its true
https://www.theguardian.com/members...hn-edward-taylor-cp-scott-manchester-guardian


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> I found an article written by one of his descendants an she states he was a cotton trader so I assume its true
> https://www.theguardian.com/members...hn-edward-taylor-cp-scott-manchester-guardian


I am not very good at religious history, not being of any religion myself, but I would think the clue maybe in being part of the Unitarian church? My husband was brought up Methodist (John Wesley set up church in Bristol on a street built by slave traders to preach anti-slavery), he seems to think Untarian church here and Universalists in USA campaigned against slavery in 1700. But he was dismal at the lockdown religion round on the virtual pub quiz. I just wonder if being Unitarian may mean he wasn't. Hmmmm, if you ask, will you let us know. I'm interested.

I spie a very liberal amount of Guardian journalism on that piece! Let's skip quickly onto Peterloo. Curious!


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> How come Labour government, labour councils and academia didn't do something about unwanted statues and I've never heard of any robust campaigns to get rid of them before?


Probably because such things never make the national news, or even the more read sections of the local press, until something like this happens. Had you ever heard of Edward Colston before the weekend? I hadn't.



Elles said:


> If enough people are interested and passionate, in a democracy something usually gets done. Which makes me think not enough people were interested, or passionate and a minority mob rule can't stand. Take it to Parliament, if we want change.


Protests ARE a way of taking things to Parliament. Many, if not most, major political changes in this country have been driven by mass protest of various kinds. And even where there is major outcry, it doesn't always get anything done - look at Windrush and Grenfell. One of the primary rules of politics is if you can ignore, contain or just talk something long enough then once the public interest has moved on, you can generally get away with a few minor concessions or even ignoring taking action on something completely.



Elles said:


> Priti Patel took questions in the house from a black female MP and an Ethnic female MP. That's 3 bame females debating racism and sexism in Britain today, in British Parliament. How far we've come, no need to burn the house down.


Three out of how many? And alongside how many white males from middle to upper class backgrounds?

Yes, we've come some way, but we can only vote for whoever is put up for election. My Tory MP is white elitist with many other undesireable -ists and -isms (and firmly in the pocket of Big Business), but his seat is totally safe and I expect it to stay that way. I've written to him several times in the past, and his replies have left me with the clear perspective that my energy is best deployed elsewhere, as my views absolutely do not count as far as he is concerned. So that's what I'll do - focus on where I can have an effect, rather than where I obviously can't.


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> Probably because such things never make the national news, or even the more read sections of the local press, until something like this happens. Had you ever heard of Edward Colston before the weekend? I hadn't.
> 
> Protests ARE a way of taking things to Parliament. Many, if not most, major political changes in this country have been driven by mass protest of various kinds. And even where there is major outcry, it doesn't always get anything done - look at Windrush and Grenfell. One of the primary rules of politics is if you can ignore, contain or just talk something long enough then once the public interest has moved on, you can generally get away with a few minor concessions or even ignoring taking action on something completely.
> 
> Three out of how many? And alongside how many white males from middle to upper class backgrounds?
> 
> Yes, we've come some way, but we can only vote for whoever is put up for election. My Tory MP is white elitist with many other undesireable -ists and -isms (and firmly in the pocket of Big Business), but his seat is totally safe and I expect it to stay that way. I've written to him several times in the past, and his replies have left me with the clear perspective that my energy is best deployed elsewhere, as my views absolutely do not count as far as he is concerned. So that's what I'll do - focus on where I can have an effect, rather than where I obviously can't.


My MP also has a safe seat, he's a married gay man. How far we've come.

Like I said, not enough people were bothered about statues, or it would have been a thing before now imo. Statues have been attacked before and they've been removed. Probably because enough people wanted it.

What's wrong with educated, middle class, white males?

Educated, middle class, black males are called all kinds of slurs and expected to apologise for their privilege too. I suspect this is more about money and power than race really.

I'm actually horrified that a career criminal who threatened to shoot a pregnant woman is being held up as some kind of hero. What the policeman did was abhorrent and he is facing the law over it. I wouldn't want to be in his shoes in American prison. Imo that should be the focus, not turning a horrible, violent man into a martyr. I expect his victims are being retraumatised. It's disgusting imo.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Will they want to take down all statues of Kings and Queens that ruled over the empire.


----------



## bearcub

Happy Paws2 said:


> Will they want to take down all statues of Kings and Queens that ruled over the empire.


So far, only one statue has been taken down. And not many people knew his name - or knew he had a statue.

With this in mind, do you think you're being slightly overdramatic?


----------



## MissSpitzMum

As far as I see it, Floyd is evidence of the issues black people face in the US. It shouldn't matter if he was a horrible person or not, the point is he was a person who was killed due to police brutality, and is one of many who have lost their lives that way.

I agree that many of the statues named should be removed, namely those of little historical significance and have a statue by virtue of donating enough money to get one. However as much as I don't personally like Churchill whatsoever, he and others like him should stay because of his historical impact on our country. It is dangerous to look at historical figures through a modern day lens because they will all fall short somewhere, be that racism, sexism or homophobia.

I still do not support the UK protests though (however am fully behind those in the USA!). I am very worried about the impact on the pandemic as someone with vulnerable relatives. I don't think it was right for people to make the decision to take the risk for other people. The protesters may be happy to take the chance of catching it, but what about the person who catches it from something they have touched in the supermarket and passes away just getting their food?

Whilst racism in the UK is still here and needs tackling, I don't think it warranted the urgency to protest during a pandemic where 60k families have lost a loved one.


----------



## mrs phas

bearcub said:


> So far, only one statue has been taken down. And not many people knew his name - or knew he had a statue.
> 
> With this in mind, do you think you're being slightly overdramatic?


the statue of Christopher Columbus was toppled, set on fire and turfed into a lake in virginia this afternoon
most people know his name


----------



## MollySmith

Happy Paws2 said:


> Will they want to take down all statues of Kings and Queens that ruled over the empire.


I don't know that it's taking them down permanently but more changing the context so it's clearer. Much like the context about Gone With The Wind. Edward Colston was (if one knows Bristol well) an issue that kept get pushed back. At least that's how I understand it. I briefly lived in Bristol about twenty years ago and it was icky then. I was surprised to see it was still there.

thing is @Happy Paws2 we're not black. We really can't even begin to understand what it must be like to walk down a street and see a celebration or tribute to someone who traded in black lives. We can't call it silly because we don't know the weight of history that comes to bear from the simple colour of skin. I like your posts a lot often, but I felt I had to say that with the biggest utmost respect to you.


----------



## bearcub

mrs phas said:


> the statue of Christopher Columbus was toppled, set on fire and turfed into a lake in virginia this afternoon
> most people know his name


So I was replying to Happy Paws' comment about kings and queens, which is UK specific.

Also, I'm not outraged about the Christopher Colombus statue going at all. In fact I love the symbolism of it lying face down in a lake.


----------



## mrs phas

bearcub said:


> So I was replying to Happy Paws' comment about kings and queens, which is UK specific.
> .


Not sure about that,
you know kings and queens are far more widespread than UK, 
Don't you?
King and queen of Sweden
Queen of Denmark
King of Cambodia
And many more
So kings and queens are hardly UK specific

Had you said you were talking, solely, about the monarchy of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Then that would be different


----------



## mrs phas

MollySmith said:


> thing is @Happy Paws2 we're not black. We really can't even begin to understand what it must be like to walk down a street and see a celebration or tribute to someone who traded in black lives. We can't call it silly because we don't know the weight of history that comes to bear from the simple colour of skin. I like your posts a lot often, but I felt I had to say that with the biggest utmost respect to you.


The thing is many of the BAME communities are saying, just the simple addition of a plaque, explaining the atrocities, alongside the good,
is much more fitting than just tearing statues down
Not trying to erase the horrors of their involvement in imperialism, or slavery, or mummery etc, but educating people that good people can also do bad things.
Parts of Bristol were built and brought out of the slums by the charity conferred on the town by Colston, hence the statue
But
That charity was funded from the profits of slavery
The truth is out there, let it be known


----------



## O2.0

mrs phas said:


> Not sure about that,
> you know kings and queens are far more widespread than UK,
> Don't you?
> King and queen of Sweden
> Queen of Denmark
> King of Cambodia
> And many more
> *So kings and queens are hardly UK specific*


Ah you must have missed this part of what @bearcub was responding to:


Happy Paws2 said:


> Will they want to take down all statues of Kings and Queens *that ruled over the empire*.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> My MP also has a safe seat, he's a married gay man. How far we've come.


That's very nice, but misses the point people are trying to make entirely.



Elles said:


> Like I said, not enough people were bothered about statues, or it would have been a thing before now imo. Statues have been attacked before and they've been removed. Probably because enough people wanted it.


As has been pointed out by several people, the Briston statue has been a 'thing' for quite some time, with a lot of people wanting it removed. There have been various attempts to get another plaque added describing how he made his fortune through slavery, they even got as far as the plaque actually being MADE at least once, only for People With Influence to object to the wording (again) and take things back to where they started.



Elles said:


> What's wrong with educated, middle class, white males?
> 
> Educated, middle class, black males are called all kinds of slurs and expected to apologise for their privilege too. I suspect this is more about money and power than race really.


Of course it's about money and power.  Technically, there is nothing wrong with educated, upper and middle class males. However, when they are _vastly _overrepresented in the ruling body, guess whose interests are most likely to be considered above everyone elses.



Elles said:


> I'm actually horrified that a career criminal who threatened to shoot a pregnant woman is being held up as some kind of hero. What the policeman did was abhorrent and he is facing the law over it. I wouldn't want to be in his shoes in American prison. Imo that should be the focus, not turning a horrible, violent man into a martyr. I expect his victims are being retraumatised. It's disgusting imo.


Now, come on. No-one is holding up George Floyd as anything other than a victim of a random act of police brutality. He didn't volunteer to be killed, nor had he even done anything wrong that day. No, he wasn't a saint - although it has also been reported he'd paid his dues for his crimes and was trying to reform. But even if the police involved had known who he was and his criminal past (which they did NOT), he still didn't deserve to die on the street begging to be allowed to breathe.

Personally, I don't want the policeman involved splashed all over the papers either - that would give the white supremacists the chace to make HIM a martyr to the cause. If they never mentioned his name and referred only to him as 'the man who murdered George Floyd' or something similar, that would be fine by me. The focus needs to be on the failings of the police processes that allowed a cop with many previous complaints against him to get to the point he basically thought he could get away with suffocating a man in public.


----------



## rona

bearcub said:


> Also, I'm not outraged about the Christopher Colombus statue going at all. In fact I love the symbolism of it lying face down in a lake.


Just the sentiment in this comment is worrying ......................This is what they are supposed to be fighting against isn't it?
Thoughts and actions of modern day white people.

I can't get my head around sorting out a wrong by doing a wrong


----------



## MollySmith

mrs phas said:


> The thing is many of the BAME communities are saying, just the simple addition of a plaque, explaining the atrocities, alongside the good,
> is much more fitting than just tearing statues down
> Not trying to erase the horrors of their involvement in imperialism, or slavery, or mummery etc, but educating people that good people can also do bad things.
> Parts of Bristol were built and brought out of the slums by the charity conferred on the town by Colston, hence the statue
> But
> That charity was funded from the profits of slavery
> The truth is out there, let it be known


yes, that's right. As I said above, it's context. Someone said on Twitter... it's doing something about the sh*Te that honours the c****s!

years attempting to do that is troubling. The second draft of the words for the plaque is also troubling, I can appreciate why it was pulled down. I think it's made a lot of institutions move quicker to do as we've said.... explain, not literally white wash.


----------



## havoc

MollySmith said:


> I don't know that it's taking them down permanently but more changing the context so it's clearer


Absolutely. Context is everything and I do think some statues belong in a museum rather than as a mark of honour. We mustn't sanitise history but we must look long and hard at what the individual did in the round to 'deserve' public recognition.

Take a look at the following, I have edited it a bit to remove the origin and I have deliberately chosen a non-human issue as an example so as not to inflame - I'm not suggesting it's comparable. Wouldn't you be impressed with a government who cared this much about animal welfare almost a century ago? Does this make them good people who should be honoured?

"For example, people who mistreated their pets could be sentenced to two years in jail. They banned the production of foie gras and docking the ears and tails of dogs without anesthesia, and they severely restricted invasive animal research. They established the first laws ensuring that animals used in films were not mistreated and also mandated humane slaughter procedures for food animals and for the euthanasia of terminally ill pets. (They were particularly concerned with the suffering of lobsters in restaurants). In addition, the government established nature preserves, a school curriculum for the humane treatment of animals, and they hosted one of the first international conferences on animal protection."


----------



## Jonescat

Meanwhile one of the 4 men charge over Floyd has posted bail and left jail apparently - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ond-minneapolis-racism-protests-a9559766.html

All you need to know about privilege right there, but here is an article about why it matters
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/14/america-bail-system-law-rich-poor

In the US, if you can post bail, you are less likely to be convicted. I wonder how a policeman posted $750,000 - my assumption based on this article is that people paid it for him
https://www.startribune.com/fired-m...floyd-death-posts-bail-leaves-jail/571169612/


----------



## bearcub

rona said:


> Just the sentiment in this comment is worrying ......................*This is what they are supposed to be fighting against isn't it?*
> Thoughts and actions of modern day white people.
> 
> I can't get my head around sorting out a wrong by doing a wrong


I'm not sure what you mean


----------



## Jesthar

havoc said:


> "For example, people who mistreated their pets could be sentenced to two years in jail. They banned the production of foie gras and docking the ears and tails of dogs without anesthesia, and they severely restricted invasive animal research. They established the first laws ensuring that animals used in films were not mistreated and also mandated humane slaughter procedures for food animals and for the euthanasia of terminally ill pets. (They were particularly concerned with the suffering of lobsters in restaurants). In addition, the government established nature preserves, a school curriculum for the humane treatment of animals, and they hosted one of the first international conferences on animal protection."


Oooh, I know who 'they' were...


----------



## Happy Paws2

MollySmith said:


> thing is @Happy Paws2 we're not black. We really can't even begin to understand what it must be like to walk down a street and see a celebration or tribute to someone who traded in black lives. We can't call it silly because we don't know the weight of history that comes to bear from the simple colour of skin.* I like your posts a lot often, but I felt I had to say that with the biggest utmost respect to you*.


Thank you, not a problem we all have a right to say how we feel.

I was really been flippant when I said about taking Kings and Queens down, I was really trying to say, we can't remove everything from history, a lot of people did some terrible things but at the same time were doing a lot of good, we can't just forget everything they did. These statues should stand for the good they did and reminder of things that should never be repeated, maybe the inscriptions on them should reflect what they did, good and bad.


----------



## kimthecat

Theres videos going around om Twitter of a police man and woman being attacked by black youths in the last day or two . This happened in London . Ive not been watching the whole of the news but wondered if it has been shown on national telly ? Has anyone seen it?


----------



## MollySmith

rona said:


> Just the sentiment in this comment is worrying ......................This is what they are supposed to be fighting against isn't it?
> Thoughts and actions of modern day white people.
> 
> I can't get my head around sorting out a wrong by doing a wrong


I've lost track of the threads here but maybe it's the turn of phrase, fighting - we've all been using that here and there has been some preconception of looting and rioting. All protests seem to come with this. As you might guess, I've done a fair bit of protesting in the past  (no surprises I'm sure!) and in the main all peaceful never been arrested. I'd like to use the words debate and awareness.

Protests give rise to debate, as we are doing here. Had Colston not been toppled who would have know. As @Elles said, she didn't know who he was. Now we all do and know what he's done. It would have been much better to have listened to Marvin Rees and for him to have agreed on the wording, democratically for him and to give respect where it was due to the community of Bristol who asked, who did try, but intervention meant that didn't happen. Do read Kate's tweet in the post where I replied to @Elles , it really does sum up why the events that lead to Colston happened.

A wrong doesn't make a right but it's on top of several decades, a century of being ignored (slavery, Windrush, Stephen Lawrence, Brixton.... more, it's endless and that's on top of everyday racism and systemic).

It's not at white people solely, it's about change as I see it (again speaking from white privilege as most of us probably are) and education, not saying Black Lives Matter last Tuesday on social media because it's a trendy hashtag and then forgetting about it. Thankfully people did call out companies who did this and has no diversity on their management board. Let's face it, had there not been a protest, we would still be here getting mad at Dominic Cummings (we still need to do that. I'm in danger of moving on dammit!) and we'd never know Colston. Never know what anti-racism is and why it's not enough to say 'I'm not a racist'.


----------



## MilleD

Jesthar said:


> Oooh, I know who 'they' were...


And all round good eggs 'they' were too


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> Theres videos going around om Twitter of a police man and woman being attacked by black youths in the last day or two . This happened in London . Ive not been watching the whole of the news but wondered if it has been shown on national telly ? Has anyone seen it?


Seen it on the internet. Happened in Hackney.


----------



## MollySmith

Happy Paws2 said:


> Thank you, not a problem we all have a right to say how we feel.
> 
> I was really been flippant when I said about taking Kings and Queens down, I was really trying to say, we can't remove everything from history, a lot of people did some terrible things but at the same time were doing a lot of good, we can't just forget everything they did. These statues should stand for the good they did and reminder of things that should never be repeated, maybe the inscriptions on them should reflect what they did, good and bad.


I'm so glad we've not fallen out  I agree, they did positive stuff and contextually slavery was global at the time. It is the balance now.


----------



## Lurcherlad

rona said:


> Just the sentiment in this comment is worrying ......................This is what they are supposed to be fighting against isn't it?
> Thoughts and actions of modern day white people.
> 
> I can't get my head around sorting out a wrong by doing a wrong


I think it makes more sense to move the objectionable statues to museums with the full story of the life of it's subject for everyone to learn about.

If they're made of valuable bronze etc. a life size photograph instead and melted down for recycling.

I don't see any good from tearing them down and being vandalised by angry crowds tbh.


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> Theres videos going around om Twitter of a police man and woman being attacked by black youths in the last day or two . This happened in London . Ive not been watching the whole of the news but wondered if it has been shown on national telly ? Has anyone seen it?


No.. but yes just see it, awful, just horrible. I don't think anyone should watch. 3.30 in the afternoon, WTF was it being videoed? Horrible and undermines all the good things being done.


----------



## Happy Paws2

MollySmith said:


> I'm so glad *we've not fallen out * I agree, they did positive stuff and contextually slavery was global at the time. It is the balance now.


We'll never agree on everything, but that's never going to happen.


----------



## MollySmith

havoc said:


> Absolutely. Context is everything and I do think some statues belong in a museum rather than as a mark of honour. We mustn't sanitise history but we must look long and hard at what the individual did in the round to 'deserve' public recognition.
> 
> Take a look at the following, I have edited it a bit to remove the origin and I have deliberately chosen a non-human issue as an example so as not to inflame - I'm not suggesting it's comparable. Wouldn't you be impressed with a government who cared this much about animal welfare almost a century ago? Does this make them good people who should be honoured?
> 
> "For example, people who mistreated their pets could be sentenced to two years in jail. They banned the production of foie gras and docking the ears and tails of dogs without anesthesia, and they severely restricted invasive animal research. They established the first laws ensuring that animals used in films were not mistreated and also mandated humane slaughter procedures for food animals and for the euthanasia of terminally ill pets. (They were particularly concerned with the suffering of lobsters in restaurants). In addition, the government established nature preserves, a school curriculum for the humane treatment of animals, and they hosted one of the first international conferences on animal protection."


Well said, it's a good comparison. I tried to do the same but yours is better!


----------



## Lurcherlad

MollySmith said:


> No.. but yes just see it, awful, just horrible. I don't think anyone should watch. 3.30 in the afternoon, WTF was it being videoed? Horrible and undermines all the good things being done.


I think it was inevitable tbh


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> No.. but yes just see it, awful, just horrible. I don't think anyone should watch. 3.30 in the afternoon, WTF was it being videoed? Horrible and undermines all the good things being done.


It was horrible.Good point about the timing , not something to show at that time. I wonder how the powers that be decide what gets shown and what doesnt , I would have expected a mention at least on the London news. Theres accusation of the BBC being biased, no change there then but I hope that there isnt and the news wónt be all one sided.

Talking about Bristol and the Peterloo massacre , strangely enough we caught up with A house through time and it covered that .


----------



## O2.0

If nothing else this thread is making it very clear how needed these conversations are. It's not just the extreme white supremacists we need to be taking issue with.
If kind, caring, well intentioned people, as I know the posters on here to be, are unknowingly perpetuating the same anti-black themes, then clearly much, much more work needs to be done.

BTW, this is BLM, I don't remember where and don't really want to trawl through to find it, but someone posted what BLM is 'about' and I felt like understanding the movement's origins might be helpful

https://www.ted.com/talks/alicia_ga...WWsFDArayGEHL8TXhEKloqJn4L1VgB_lV5yg#t-930726


----------



## rottieboys

kimthecat said:


> Theres videos going around om Twitter of a police man and woman being attacked by black youths in the last day or two . This happened in London . Ive not been watching the whole of the news but wondered if it has been shown on national telly ? Has anyone seen it?


Joking, Nothing on BBC, ITV or Sky....We must not show that. Bloody Biased


----------



## Elles

O2.0 said:


> If nothing else this thread is making it very clear how needed these conversations are. It's not just the extreme white supremacists we need to be taking issue with.
> If kind, caring, well intentioned people, as I know the posters on here to be, are unknowingly perpetuating the same anti-black themes, then clearly much, much more work needs to be done.
> 
> BTW, this is BLM, I don't remember where and don't really want to trawl through to find it, but someone posted what BLM is 'about' and I felt like understanding the movement's origins might be helpful
> 
> https://www.ted.com/talks/alicia_ga...WWsFDArayGEHL8TXhEKloqJn4L1VgB_lV5yg#t-930726


I'm not a socialist, or Marxist, I don't agree with the politics. I do think some people are donating to the organisation thinking it's non partisan and only about racism. It's not. Not all black people are the same, holding the same views and vote for the democrats (same as labour over here?). Some even support Donald Trump and the police.

Who are the people 'we need to be taking issue with'. Anti black themes? Anti Marxism. Anti socialism. It's not anti black, that has nothing to do with black. However, I'm not kneeling and apologising, or washing someone's feet as some kind of virtue signalling that will be forgotten for the next fashionable issue either and I will never vote for someone like Jeremy Corbyn or Keir Starmer. I'm not on your side, you can take issue if you like.


----------



## havoc

Jesthar said:


> Oooh, I know who 'they' were...


And we don't ignore or forgive the horrors they inflicted because they did something we applaud.


----------



## Jonescat

rottieboys said:


> Joking, Nothing on BBC, ITV or Sky....We must not show that. Bloody Biased


It is on the BBC
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-53002948

and Sky
https://news.sky.com/story/disgusti...-officers-injured-in-hackney-assault-12004526

and ITV
https://www.itv.com/news/2020-06-10/sickening-and-disgraceful-attack-on-police-condemned/


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> It was horrible.Good point about the timing , not something to show at that time. I wonder how the powers that be decide what gets shown and what doesnt , I would have expected a mention at least on the London news. Theres accusation of the BBC being biased, no change there then but I hope that there isnt and the news wónt be all one sided.
> 
> Talking about Bristol and the Peterloo massacre , strangely enough we caught up with A house through time and it covered that .





rottieboys said:


> Joking, Nothing on BBC, ITV or Sky....We must not show that. Bloody Biased


I would be almost certain that they are thinking very very very carefully about how to handle it. Showing the video plays right into those who might then turn around and say 'typical blacks' when that's of course utterly untrue. It's the sort of thing that Nigel Farage, Nat Freedom movement etc will likely take and use to undermine and create those riots. How they say it and giving fair right to reply from the organisations around BLM is so important.

House Through Time is great. The presenter David lives there and has been on Twitter. He pretty much said put Colston in a museum as it is now to create a new narrative.


----------



## Jonescat

This gives me hope, although I am sad for the author
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-52993678

I am one of the people that has bought both "Why I am no longer talking to white people about race" and also "Girl Woman Other" (and "The Good Immigrant") as a direct result of George Floyd's murder, because the responsibility is on me to educate myself before I open my mouth, and I wanted a British context (because I can't change America, and the systems in place there are different - law, policing,healthcare etc so likely we need to do slightly different things here). But I am glad that so many people want to know more.


----------



## MollySmith

Elles said:


> I'm not a socialist, or Marxist, I don't agree with the politics. I do think some people are donating to the organisation thinking it's non partisan and only about racism. It's not. Not all black people are the same, holding the same views and vote for the democrats (same as labour over here?). Some even support Donald Trump and the police.
> 
> Who are the people 'we need to be taking issue with'. Anti black themes? Anti Marxism. Anti socialism. It's not anti black, that has nothing to do with black. However, I'm not kneeling and apologising, or washing someone's feet as some kind of virtue signalling that will be forgotten for the next fashionable issue either and I will never vote for someone like Jeremy Corbyn or Keir Starmer. I'm not on your side, you can take issue if you like.


The book, How To Be An Anti-Racist talks about divisions within racism and breaks down your question. Worth a read and not very expensive on Kindle. I am not going to quote from it as that would bring my views into play.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Be-Ant.../ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=


----------



## MollySmith

Jonescat said:


> This gives me hope, although I am sad for the author
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-52993678
> 
> I am one of the people that has bought both "Why I am no longer talking to white people about race" and also "Girl Woman Other" (and "The Good Immigrant") as a direct result of George Floyd's murder, because the responsibility is on me to educate myself before I open my mouth, and I wanted a British context (because I can't change America, and the systems in place there are different - law, policing,healthcare etc so likely we need to do slightly different things here). But I am glad that so many people want to know more.


Me too. Had to ebook as I can't buy print anywhere yes, sad for Reni too.


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> I would be almost certain that they are thinking very very very carefully about how to handle it. Showing the video plays right into those who might then turn around and say 'typical blacks' when that's of course utterly untrue. It's the sort of thing that Nigel Farage, Nat Freedom movement etc will likely take and use to undermine and create those riots. How they say it and giving fair right to reply from the organisations around BLM is so important.
> 
> .


A clip was shown briefly on BBC London news at lunch time. . Two men have been arrested . They said that police attacks are frequent and they dont know what the reason was for this attack. It seems thousands of attacks happen every year.


----------



## kimthecat

Jonescat said:


> It is on the BBC
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-53002948
> 
> and Sky
> https://news.sky.com/story/disgusti...-officers-injured-in-hackney-assault-12004526
> 
> and ITV
> https://www.itv.com/news/2020-06-10/sickening-and-disgraceful-attack-on-police-condemned/


Thats good but thats on their websites with photos and a small film clip with peoples faces blurred. I doubt if as many people check their websites as watch the channels on TV.


----------



## Cleo38

MollySmith said:


> I would be almost certain that they are thinking very very very carefully about how to handle it. Showing the video plays right into those who might then turn around and say 'typical blacks' when that's of course utterly untrue. It's the sort of thing that Nigel Farage, Nat Freedom movement etc will likely take and use to undermine and create those riots. How they say it and giving fair right to reply from the organisations around BLM is so important.
> 
> House Through Time is great. The presenter David lives there and has been on Twitter. He pretty much said put Colston in a museum as it is now to create a new narrative.


But then surely not showing or reporting on incidents is wrong on many levels & also adds to tensions. When the reports of grooming gangs started to be surface it appeared that the media was reluctant to discuss the ethnicity/religion of those involved when it was apparent this was important. This was then used by the far right to promote their warped ideology & am sure because of the appearance of a cover up but many in the media/police it did help their 'cause'.


----------



## kimthecat

People are still very angry about that. There was finally an enquiry into it. 
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...knowingly-neglected-girls-exploited-grooming/


----------



## Cleo38

kimthecat said:


> People are still very angry about that. There was finally an enquiry into it.
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...knowingly-neglected-girls-exploited-grooming/


And there are accusations that people are still being silenced over this. I was watching a clip on Maggie Oliver's FB page the other week that discussed this, absolutely shocking & very sad.


----------



## MollySmith

Cleo38 said:


> But then surely not showing or reporting on incidents is wrong on many levels & also adds to tensions. When the reports of grooming gangs started to be surface it appeared that the media was reluctant to discuss the ethnicity/religion of those involved when it was apparent this was important. This was then used by the far right to promote their warped ideology & am sure because of the appearance of a cover up but many in the media/police it did help their 'cause'.


Yes, good point I hadn't considered. It's actually almost the same as saying let's not change the wording on this plaque...


----------



## kimthecat

@Cleo38  What a sad world this is that children are abused in this way . Not just this but also FGM and honour killings and people of all nationalities and groups abusing and killing their own children .


----------



## kimthecat

Bit shocked at this .


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> Bit shocked at this .


How is it gaslighting?


----------



## kimthecat

@MilleD I have no idea.


----------



## O2.0

MilleD said:


> How is it gaslighting?


I don't know the context of that particular letter, but I would imagine that telling someone of color that their experience of racism was not racism because I don't consider it so, can be a form of gaslighting. 
I'm not explaining it well, the best I can describe is from my own experience. If I experience sexism at my job, and I go to a female co-worker and say "this happened to me" and she says "that was not sexism because I have not experienced sexism from that person" that is a type of gaslighting. Because essentially she is saying that my experience was not what I experienced.

We all experience bias differently. Just because *this* black person hasn't been harassed by the police, doesn't mean police harassment of black people doesn't happen. Just because *that* black person hasn't experienced racism personally, doesn't mean racism doesn't happen to black people.

I hope that makes some sort of sense!


----------



## bearcub

Priti Patel doesn't know what social justice means.

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24778/priti_patel/witham/votes


----------



## lullabydream

O2.0 said:


> I don't know the context of that particular letter, but I would imagine that telling someone of color that their experience of racism was not racism because I don't consider it so, can be a form of gaslighting.
> I'm not explaining it well, the best I can describe is from my own experience. If I experience sexism at my job, and I go to a female co-worker and say "this happened to me" and she says "that was not sexism because I have not experienced sexism from that person" that is a type of gaslighting. Because essentially she is saying that my experience was not what I experienced.
> 
> We all experience bias differently. Just because *this* black person hasn't been harassed by the police, doesn't mean police harassment of black people doesn't happen. Just because *that* black person hasn't experienced racism personally, doesn't mean racism doesn't happen to black people.
> 
> I hope that makes some sort of sense!


Yes that's how I would have read it too on the gaslighting!


----------



## kimthecat

O2.0 said:


> I don't know the context of that particular letter, but I would imagine that telling someone of color that their experience of racism was not racism because I don't consider it so, can be a form of gaslighting.
> I'm not explaining it well, the best I can describe is from my own experience. If I experience sexism at my job, and I go to a female co-worker and say "this happened to me" and she says "that was not sexism because I have not experienced sexism from that person" that is a type of gaslighting. Because essentially she is saying that my experience was not what I experienced.
> 
> We all experience bias differently. Just because *this* black person hasn't been harassed by the police, doesn't mean police harassment of black people doesn't happen. Just because *that* black person hasn't experienced racism personally, doesn't mean racism doesn't happen to black people.
> 
> I hope that makes some sort of sense!


A clip showing how it all started off.


----------



## Lurcherlad

From that I got that far from not understanding what racism is (as accused by the female Labour MP) she has experienced it herself, being a woman of colour, and so obviously does understand what racism is.

Don’t see how that is gaslighting.

She wasn’t denying anyone else’s experience of it but explaining her own experience of it to highlight that she accepts it’s existence, and does understand, surely?


----------



## O2.0

Elles said:


> I'm actually horrified that a career criminal who threatened to shoot a pregnant woman is being held up as some kind of hero. What the policeman did was abhorrent and he is facing the law over it. I wouldn't want to be in his shoes in American prison. Imo that should be the focus, not turning a horrible, violent man into a martyr. I expect his victims are being retraumatised. It's disgusting imo.


He's not being held up as a hero. He's being shown as a symbol.

Perhaps we should be looking in to Derek Chauvin's past with equal scrutiny as the pasts of victims of police brutality get looked at. 
18 complaints, a history of violence, involvement in a fatal shooting, shot another suspect.... 
Note: "Serpas, the former police chief, noted that the vast majority of police go their entire careers without firing their service weapons, but he said Chauvin may have faced a different set of circumstances as a longtime patrol officer that required him to use his gun."
I can tell you from personal knowledge that what Serpas says is true. The vast majority of police go their entire careers without firing their service weapons. And I could tell you stories of the lengths they will go to avoid using them. But I won't. That's not the point.

George Floyd served his time for his crimes and was turning his life around. He was arrested for using a counterfeit $20 bill. Do you know how easy it is to not know you have a counterfeit bill, how unusual it would be to be arrested for something like that? 
It took 8 minutes between the police detaining Mr. Floyd and his death. They did not know his past when they detained him.

Meanwhile, Derek Chauvin had 18 complaints against him in his 19 years on the force, and faced no repercussions for his behavior. It took a video of him essentially lynching a man for the Minneapolis police department to fire him. 
BTW, the victims of Derek Chauvin's violence are definitely re-traumatized. Some have spoken out. 
Again, let's scrutinize him as carefully as the victim no?


----------



## lullabydream

Lurcherlad said:


> From that I got that far from not understanding what racism is (as accused by the female Labour MP) she has experienced it herself, being a woman of colour, and so obviously does understand what racism is.
> 
> Don't see how that is gaslighting.
> 
> She wasn't denying anyone else's experience of it but explaining her own experience of it to highlight that she accepts it's existence, and does understand, surely?


In the context of the letter though and the clip.. Priti Patel was in my opinion how I extrapolate it, was to sort of shut the opposition down... 
So saying look what I have been through I know all about racism, here is what I have been through. It happens.. It was very matter of fact though..

I can't really say for certain about what BLM stands for in the Labour MPs mind but am guessing inequality by the higher ranks, such as the police as we could extrapolate whatever we will.. So to a certain degree it's how as @O2.0 said. It was gaslighting. Move the focus from the real problem, the true victims that are effected to themselves.. Similiar how it works in abusive relationships to some extent.. I have it worse give me pity.

Although if this wasn't about race I guess people would say, she's given a typical politicians answer.. Meaning ignore the question talk about themselves and move on.

Yes am sure Priti Patel has had to face racism. Just to clarify am sure she's not lying.


----------



## bearcub

kimthecat said:


> A clip showing how it all started off.


Urgh that is dreadful. All Priti Patel succeeded in doing was deflecting from Florence Elashomi's very important question and shutting down the argument. And yes, gaslighting is a good definition.


----------



## kimthecat

lullabydream said:


> In the context of the letter though and the clip.. Priti Patel was in my opinion how I extrapolate it, was to sort of shut the opposition down...
> So saying look what I have been through I know all about racism, here is what I have been through. It happens.. It was very matter of fact though..


I thought she was trying to control her anger , gritting her teeth. I dont think she was trying to shut the opposition down . She was asked if she "actually understood the anger and frustration felt by so many people" which implies she did not understand and she gave reasons why she does.
I think it was daft question to ask . It is a personal question and she gave a personal answer.


----------



## kimthecat

Anyone old enough to remember Think about your Children by mary Hopkins. I have the record somewhere. 
A bit sexist now as says think about your children, Mother and then about her son but a good message .


----------



## kimthecat

melting pot by Blue Mink , now considered racist because of the terms used . The message isnt understood nowadays .


----------



## Elles

bearcub said:


> Urgh that is dreadful. All Priti Patel succeeded in doing was deflecting from Florence Elashomi's very important question and shutting down the argument. And yes, gaslighting is a good definition.


It wasn't where it started. She had already been questioned by another Bame woman. We have 3 eloquent and educated bame women debating racism and sexism in British Parliament. That wouldn't have happened a few years ago. How can people suggest we haven't progressed and things have got worse? Discrimination based on race is illegal in this country.


----------



## kimthecat

We went for our dog walk at 6 pm because we thought the park would be empty then but when we got in there , there was a small group of under 5s having football practice , a mixed group of white, black and Asian. Mums chatting , the dads instructing the kids . All having a good time , race didnt matter. It was heart warming to watch and I wish it could be like this everywhere


----------



## bearcub

Elles said:


> It wasn't where it started. She had already been questioned by another Bame woman. We have 3 eloquent and educated bame women debating racism and sexism in British Parliament. That wouldn't have happened a few years ago. How can people suggest we haven't progressed and things have got worse? Discrimination based on race is illegal in this country.


Yet it is still happening...

eta are you familiar with the catastrophic example of maladministration commonly known as Windrush?


----------



## kimthecat

BBC news subtitles tonight said Barry is going around the Cenotaph . Who the f*** is Barry ? :Hilarious


----------



## lullabydream

kimthecat said:


> BBC news subtitles tonight said Barry is going around the Cenotaph . Who the f*** is Barry ? :Hilarious


Is Barry related to Alice?!?!?


----------



## kimthecat

lullabydream said:


> Is Barry related to Alice?!?!?


No , he lives next door to her ! :Hilarious


----------



## Elles

bearcub said:


> Yet it is still happening...
> 
> eta are you familiar with the catastrophic example of maladministration commonly known as Windrush?


Of course. People in this country were outraged and rightly so.

I did a little research on anti-racism. Looked at some of the book and felt it didn't relate to what I'm seeing today, the kneeling, the apologies for being white, the white privilege thing, so I typed anti-racism into YouTube and got this.






I wonder if my politics and anti-religion stance means that search algorithms throw videos and people that I'd find agreeable at me and whether if I was a leftie I'd get something else.

Some of the anti-racism ideas are socialist ideas, but based on race from what I can see and I'm not a socialist. I do think that people need a safety net and I do believe in equal opportunity for all, I also think we should do far more for people who really need support, disabled, elderly, sick, or those who fall on hard times, but lifting people who can lift themselves? No. It's not good for anyone Imo. Not that I'm in a position to lift anyone.


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> melting pot by Blue Mink , now considered racist because of the terms used . The message isnt understood nowadays .


Ok. I've obviously no idea what's going on. What others are saying just doesn't make any sense to me.
How on earth is that song racist? It's the complete opposite
If just referring to colour is racist then why do they keep mentioning their colour? It means everyone else is forced to to..........and then we are racist for it!

It's like the gender issue. Just get on with your lives. I really don't care nor want to know if you are Black, Asian, Non Binary, trans or whatever else. I will treat you the same as everyone else if you don't try and shove it in my face.

By all means be horrified and react to that video, say it was a race issue too, but don't try to wipe out history, even recent history. It's pointless, scrubbing it out won't make things better, learning from it will


----------



## Lurcherlad

lullabydream said:


> In the context of the letter though and the clip.. Priti Patel was in my opinion how I extrapolate it, was to sort of shut the opposition down...
> So saying look what I have been through I know all about racism, here is what I have been through. It happens.. It was very matter of fact though..
> 
> I can't really say for certain about what BLM stands for in the Labour MPs mind but am guessing inequality by the higher ranks, such as the police as we could extrapolate whatever we will.. So to a certain degree it's how as @O2.0 said. It was gaslighting. Move the focus from the real problem, the true victims that are effected to themselves.. Similiar how it works in abusive relationships to some extent.. I have it worse give me pity.
> 
> Although if this wasn't about race I guess people would say, she's given a typical politicians answer.. Meaning ignore the question talk about themselves and move on.
> 
> Yes am sure Priti Patel has had to face racism. Just to clarify am sure she's not lying.


I didn't think she was saying "look what I've been through" though. More, "I do understand, I've experienced it (backed up by the details she gave).

Nor did I think she was matter of fact about it either tbh.

Whether "the government" understand fully is another matter and that point could be deemed to have been swerved, I concede - but that happens on both sides of the house 

I guess we will all interpret it differently and can agree to disagree.


----------



## lullabydream

Lurcherlad said:


> I didn't think she was saying "look what I've been through" though. More, "I do understand, I've experienced it (backed up by the details she gave).
> 
> Nor did I think she was matter of fact about it either tbh.
> 
> Whether "the government" understand fully is another matter and that point could be deemed to have been swerved, I concede - but that happens on both sides of the house
> 
> I guess we will all interpret it differently and can agree to disagree.


Yes I would say do the government understand is a whole as a different matter.. 
Boris knew what had happened in America would mean protest here to be honest and asked for peaceful, social distanced ones.

Will they all understand or have empathy.. Probably not. Not just due to prejudice though some will as many have hear after working the hours fear the actual pandemic over the progress.


----------



## MilleD

Oh my god. Lady antebellum have now changed their band name. This is getting ridiculous now.


----------



## Dave S

rona said:


> It's like the gender issue. Just get on with your lives. I really don't care nor want to know if you are Black, Asian, Non Binary, trans or whatever else. I will treat you the same as everyone else if you don't try and shove it in my face.


Great line there and so true.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> the apologies for being white, the white privilege thing


The white privilege 'thing' seems to be a real sticking point. I don't feel a need to apologise for being white to accept it exists. I have it. I assume I can do many things without fear or harassment, it isn't even a conscious thought most of the time - it's every little part of normal life. I can browse in a shop, stay in a hotel, drive a nice car, walk down the street all without being an object of suspicion. That level of respect accorded to me as a human being throughout my life affects the very core of who I became - of who I believed I could be. Nobody wants to take that away from me, it just needs to be extended to all.


----------



## Calvine

MollySmith said:


> WTF was it being videoed?


It's this obsession with filming everything: you don't attempt to help, just make a video you can send to your mates and to your 587 friends on FB. Even better, a ''selfie'' with someone behind you being murdered . . . now that is well cool, dude.


----------



## Calvine

MilleD said:


> How is it gaslighting?


 I thought ''gaslighting'' was deliberately doing something to make your ''victim'' question their own sanity. I saw the film and some guy is in the attic lowering the lights so wife starts to think, well it only ever happens when I'm alone, so it must be me; I'm losing the plot . . . good film actually! I read something where ''gaslighting'' was sometimes cited as a reason for divorce; can't remember the details.


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> Ok. I've obviously no idea what's going on. What others are saying just doesn't make any sense to me.
> How on earth is that song racist? It's the complete opposite
> If just referring to colour is racist then why do they keep mentioning their colour? It means everyone else is forced to to..........and then we are racist for it!


Im not sure . i think its the terms used to describe different people.



> It's like the gender issue. Just get on with your lives. I really don't care nor want to know if you are Black, Asian, Non Binary, trans or whatever else. I will treat you the same as everyone else if you don't try and shove it in my face.


For the first time in my life Ive thought "Im glad I wont be here ". Whatever happened to winning hearts and minds. You can shut people down but you cannot control what they think .


----------



## havoc

Lurcherlad said:


> I didn't think she was saying "look what I've been through" though. More, "I do understand, I've experienced it (backed up by the details she gave).


Wasn't it more that she interrupted whoever was speaking and therefore shut them down? I have seen very little but that's what I got from radio news. If that's the case then I can understand the accusation of gaslighting - when it happens within a relationship it's the undermining of someone, making them believe their opinion is completely unimportant and nobody would listen.


----------



## kimthecat

havoc said:


> Wasn't it more that she interrupted whoever was speaking and therefore shut them down? I have seen very little but that's what I got from radio news. If that's the case then I can understand the accusation of gaslighting - when it happens within a relationship it's the undermining of someone, making them believe their opinion is completely unimportant and nobody would listen.


Are we watching the same video ? "whoever was speaking" was a black woman MP called Florence Eshalomi. She asked her questions and then sat and down and Priti stood up. Florence mentioned her 4 year old son so she made it. personal


----------



## Calvine

MilleD said:


> Oh my god. Lady antebellum have now changed their band name. This is getting ridiculous now.


And the German episode of Fawlty Towers . . . verschwunden.


----------



## Lurcherlad

havoc said:


> Wasn't it more that she interrupted whoever was speaking and therefore shut them down? I have seen very little but that's what I got from radio news. If that's the case then I can understand the accusation of gaslighting - when it happens within a relationship it's the undermining of someone, making them believe their opinion is completely unimportant and nobody would listen.


What @kimthecat said.


----------



## Elles

They’ve banned an episode of faulty towers now. Who are these people at the bbc?

Already posted by Calvin, don’t know how I missed it.


----------



## havoc

Fair enough, maybe there was more to it. I honestly don’t know. Maybe it was the attempt at competitive victiming which led to the term gaslighting being used. The whole ‘you don’t have it bad because I’ve had it worse’ thing.


----------



## Gemmaa

The Mighty Boosh has been pulled from Netflix, because of the Spirit of Jazz :Facepalm


----------



## Pawscrossed

Gaslighting. Happens on forums too.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> And the German episode of Fawlty Towers . . . verschwunden.


OT I wished they'd take off the episode with the deaf woman where he mouths words instead of speaking and she thinks her hearing aids dont work . It really gets boring and not funny. when people do that in real life. I think I will start a Hearing privilege tag !


----------



## kimthecat

Pawscrossed said:


> Gaslighting. Happens on forums too.


I think it used to be called Straw man argument . Also micro aggressions frequently occur here including this thread .


----------



## kimthecat

A young man on the news saying that Britain invented racism. I dont think he knows his history.


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> A young man on the news saying that Britain invented racism. I dont think he knows his history.


Is that the poor bugger who has been blamed online for torching the union flag? When it was actually a woman?


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> They've banned an episode of faulty towers now. Who are these people at the bbc?
> 
> Already posted by Calvin, don't know how I missed it.


And bits of Little Britain. If you don't like it, don't watch it. . . . I wasn't that keen. But fairly sure watching John Cleese on TV isn't causing racial disharmony. There was also Manuel, the Spanish waiter, depicted being really thick. If they ban him, then the whole series will be in the bin.


----------



## Lurcherlad

havoc said:


> Fair enough, maybe there was more to it. I honestly don't know. Maybe it was the attempt at competitive victiming which led to the term gaslighting being used. The whole 'you don't have it bad because I've had it worse' thing.


But was it an attempt at competitive victiming or "don't tell me I don't understand, I've lived it"?

Not "I've had it worse".

That's how I took it from the clip I saw anyway.

I think it comes down to individual interpretation among other things tbh. I get the impression that Ms Patel has many critics and some might be too ready to condemn her no matter what she says and how she says it.


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> Is that the poor bugger who has been blamed online for torching the union flag? When it was actually a woman?


I think so , I didnt see all of it. Deliberately done to blame him ?


----------



## Lurcherlad

kimthecat said:


> OT I wished they'd take off the episode with the deaf woman where he mouths words instead of speaking and she thinks her hearing aids dont work . It really gets boring and not funny. when people do that in real life. I think I will start a Hearing privilege tag !


I didn't find anything funny about Fawlty Towers in the first place.

Stupid mostly.

I can't watch John Cleese in anything tbh.


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> I think so , I didnt see all of it. Deliberately done to blame him ?


No. Mistaken identity as he was wearing a similar jacket.


----------



## kimthecat

Lurcherlad said:


> I think it comes down to individual interpretation among other things tbh. I get the impression that Ms Patel has many critics and some might be too ready to condemn her no matter what she says and how she says it.


The Guardian showed a cartoon of her with Boris as bulls with rings in their noses. She said is was culturally insensitive to depict her like that . I dont know whether they apologised or not.


----------



## Lurcherlad

kimthecat said:


> The Guardian showed a cartoon of her with Boris with rings in their noses. She said is was culturally insensitive to depict her like that . I dont know whether they apologised or not.


Indeed.

Surely, in this day and age they would realise the cultural insult that would have been, regardless if they meant it that way?

How did they not see how it might have been interpreted which made it unacceptable imo.

Sloppy, lazy or worse?


----------



## Elles

Lurcherlad said:


> Indeed.
> 
> Surely, in this day and age they would realise the cultural insult that would have been, regardless if they meant it that way?
> 
> How did they not see how it might have been interpreted which made it unacceptable imo.
> 
> Sloppy, lazy or worse?


because it's not about culture or colour, it's political and some (many?) at the bbc are middle class lefties who think anything goes so long as it's aimed at the tories.


----------



## Cleo38

Elles said:


> because it's not about culture or colour, it's political and some (many?) at the bbc are middle class lefties who think anything goes so long as it's aimed at the tories.


Funny isn't it how some people are so easily offended yet can direct abuse or insults at others simply because they have a different POV (political or whatever).
Yesterday I commented on a literary FB page in reposnse to an article about JK Rowling. I posted that I supported her & thought her posts regarding being a woman were spot on ….. I was then told I was vile, a disgusting bigoted human being who should just f*ck off & shut my stupid TERF mouth. This being the person who told everyone how inclusive & tolerant (s)he was & it was people who supported JKR that were offensive …. the irony !!!


----------



## bearcub

Cleo38 said:


> Funny isn't it how some people are so easily offended yet can direct abuse or insults at others simply because they have a different POV (political or whatever).
> Yesterday I commented on a literary FB page in reposnse to an article about JK Rowling that I supported her & thought her posts regarding being a woman were spot on ….. I was then told I was vile, a disgusting bigoted human being who should just f*ck off & shut my stupid TERF mouth. This being the person who told everyone how inclusive & tolerant (s)he was & it was people who supported JKR that were offensive …. the irony !!!


Yes! I have a 'stupid TERF mouth' too. Apparently I'm also a homophobe which is weird considering I'm gay.


----------



## Happy Paws2

How have we got to this, having to do this to protect the Cenotaph from protesters, I know people have the right to protest but really this is getting out of hand.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-53020306


----------



## O2.0

Elles said:


> I wonder if my politics and anti-religion stance means that search algorithms throw videos and people that I'd find agreeable at me and whether if I was a leftie I'd get something else.


I think there is just so much out there.

I can google dog training and quickly find multiple videos of terrible dog training. 
That doesn't mean dog training is a bad thing.
It doesn't mean there aren't excellent dog trainers out there.
Doesn't mean we shouldn't train our dogs. 
It just means there are a lot of dog trainers out there and they vary greatly.

I won't speak for the UK, but in the US, the protests are essentially against systemic racism. A very strong example of which is the racism in our legal and judicial system. The reality is that people of color are more likely to be detained by the police, more likely to be hurt or killed when detained by the police, more likely to be arrested and charged with a crime if detained, less likely to post bail, more likely to be tried, more likely to get a harsher sentence when tried, less likely to be paroled, will have a harder time getting a job when they get out of prison, etc., etc., etc. 
This is one form of systemic racism. 
I could give other examples for our education system, for our housing system, for our money lending system, for our political system (electoral college anyone?), for our health care system, and on and on. Again, systemic racism.

As a country we are finally at a point where it feels like those in positions to change things are actually listening, people are actually seeing, really seeing what we have been saying for so long about systemic racism, and are actually willing to try and change. That's a good thing. That's amazing!
In those moments of new awareness people are going to have knee-jerk reactions, some of which do indeed look ridiculous. That's not because the movement is ridiculous though. It's in many ways simply part of the painful process of awareness, realization, and change. Growth is painful. (I should know, I have a 17 year old who just grew an inch overnight and was complaining about sore knees and back).

We can sit here and nitpick individual actions, but at the end of the day the issue is not a TV show episode or a musical group's name, but addressing the systems that perpetuate unjust practices.


----------



## Cleo38

bearcub said:


> Yes! I have a 'stupid TERF mouth' too. Apparently I'm also a homophobe which is weird considering I'm gay.


Hahaha , we could form a club! One of the other posters on the FB thread was also called a bigot & anti-trans …. even when they posted they were a trans man …. so bizarre that a person can be party of a community yet deemed to be against it by those who are so very right all the time!


----------



## Elles

O2.0 said:


> The reality is that people of color are more likely to be detained by the police, more likely to be hurt or killed when detained by the police, more likely to be arrested and charged with a crime if detained, less likely to post bail, more likely to be tried, more likely to get a harsher sentence when tried, less likely to be paroled, will have a harder time getting a job when they get out of prison, etc., etc., etc.


I'm not saying I disagree with you, I don't live in the USA, but there are different views about whether this is so and if so why it is so. I watched a black person asking why it doesn't apply to Chinese people who do even better than whites and using that as devil's advocate for his argument. So when I read your arguments, I know they are one sided, because I've seen the other side too.

I'm inclined to agree with you and accept what you are saying, but then I have to examine why, when I've seen and read about terrible injustices in the justice system where race hasn't seemed to matter. Maybe the justice system generally needs an overhaul and the police need to be reformed. That's up to Americans though. I still can't understand why city dwellers in America need guns. There are a lot of things I don't understand about other countries and cultures, it doesn't make it any of my business really. 

Oh and I was asking if someone with different political views to me would get different videos. If you type anti-racism into YouTube would the first video you get be a speech on why it might not be helpful? Or do you get videos supporting the concept?


----------



## O2.0

Elles said:


> I'm not saying I disagree with you, I don't live in the USA, but there are different views about whether this is so and if so why it is so. I watched a black person asking why it doesn't apply to Chinese people who do even better than whites and using that as devil's advocate for his argument. So when I read your arguments, I know they are one sided, because I've seen the other side too.
> 
> I'm inclined to agree with you and accept what you are saying, but then I have to examine why, when I've seen and read about terrible injustices in the justice system where race hasn't seemed to matter. Maybe the justice system generally needs an overhaul and the police need to be reformed. That's up to Americans though. I still can't understand why city dwellers in America need guns. There are a lot of things I don't understand about other countries and cultures, it doesn't make it any of my business really.


And that's fine too. But it seems some want to have it both ways. They want to complain about the protests in the US but don't want to take the time to understand what led to them and why people are protesting.


----------



## bearcub

Cleo38 said:


> Hahaha , we could form a club! One of the other posters on the FB thread was also called a bigot & anti-trans …. even when they posted they were a trans man …. so bizarre that a person can be party of a community yet deemed to be against it by those who are so very right all the time!


If the fabulous JK Rowling can be part of our club I'm well up for it. I do wonder how all of this is going to look in 10 or 20 years time.


----------



## Lurcherlad

This is the trouble. Any opinion or comment that can be deemed to be negative in any way (even when factually and statistically true) is likely to be interpreted as “ist” or “phobic”.


----------



## bearcub

MilleD said:


> Oh my god. Lady antebellum have now changed their band name. This is getting ridiculous now.


Have they changed it to Menstruator Antebellum?

(that's a joke)


----------



## kimthecat

bearcub said:


> Have they changed it to Menstruator Antebellum?
> 
> (that's a joke)


 :Hilarious


----------



## bearcub

Elles said:


> Of course. People in this country were outraged and rightly so.
> 
> I did a little research on anti-racism. Looked at some of the book and felt it didn't relate to what I'm seeing today, the kneeling, the apologies for being white, the white privilege thing, so I typed anti-racism into YouTube and got this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if my politics and anti-religion stance means that search algorithms throw videos and people that I'd find agreeable at me and whether if I was a leftie I'd get something else.
> 
> Some of the anti-racism ideas are socialist ideas, but based on race from what I can see and I'm not a socialist. I do think that people need a safety net and I do believe in equal opportunity for all, I also think we should do far more for people who really need support, disabled, elderly, sick, or those who fall on hard times, but lifting people who can lift themselves? No. It's not good for anyone Imo. Not that I'm in a position to lift anyone.


It's hard to sound genuine on the internet, but I really learned a lot from that video.

I don't necessarily agree with what the gentleman says, but I think the important thing is it represents a diverse viewpoint - which is what all of this is about.


----------



## mrs phas

Looks as though there's a little tit-4-tat going on in Bristol

BBC News - Black actor Alfred Fagon's statue damaged in Bristol
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-53011774


----------



## Lurcherlad

MilleD said:


> Oh my god. Lady antebellum have now changed their band name. This is getting ridiculous now.


I'm a bit surprised that the historical association of the name never come up before though?

If it's really that offensive, I would have expected it to have been raised early in their rise to fame.


----------



## Lurcherlad

mrs phas said:


> Looks as though there's a little tit-4-tat going on in Bristol
> 
> BBC News - Black actor Alfred Fagon's statue damaged in Bristol
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-53011774


Again, I'd say inevitable. 

Morons will always act like morons.

This is why I don't like to see any violence or vandalism associated with a cause because it plays into the hands of such people who will always choose the lowest common denominator.


----------



## Elles

My father in law who just lost his wife and is in his 80s has dug out his old uniform and gone to protect a war memorial.


----------



## MilleD

bearcub said:


> Have they changed it to Menstruator Antebellum?
> 
> (that's a joke)


I see what you did there!


----------



## Jonescat

Elles said:


> Oh and I was asking if someone with different political views to me would get different videos. If you type anti-racism into YouTube would the first video you get be a speech on why it might not be helpful? Or do you get videos supporting the concept?


Interesting experiment. My first one is Emmanual Acho (Sports analyst) "Being anti-racist means calling out racism wherever you see it" and then a fair few on the statue toppling in Bristol. Any one else willing to try it?


----------



## O2.0

MilleD said:


> Oh my god. Lady antebellum have now changed their band name. This is getting ridiculous now.


It was 100% their choice. No group pressured them to change their name, they chose to do it based on their own experiences. Have you read their statement about it?
"We've watched and listened more than ever these last few weeks, and our hears have been stirred with conviction, our eyes opened wide to the injustices, inequality and biases black women and men have always faced and continue to face every day," they wrote. "Now, blindspots we didn't even know existed have been revealed.
We will continue to educate ourselves, have hard conversations and search the parts of our hearts that need pruning -- to grow into better humans, better neighbors," they wrote. "Our next outward step will be a donation to the equal justice initiative through Ladyaid. Our prayer is that if we lead by example...with humility, love, empathy and action...we can be better allies to those suffering from spoken and unspoken injustices, while influencing our children and generations to come."

They changed their name to Lady A. Which was their nickname among fans anyway. Hardly a massive difference.
Surely it's their right to change their name for whatever reason they choose? If fans disagree it's also their right to stop supporting the band. I don't see a huge issue here.

I do understand that it's easier to talk about bands changing their names and TV episodes, than it is to talk about human beings being beaten and killed, in 2020, by those sworn to protect us - hell, there is an excellent article about the difference in how the police apprehended Dyllan Roof (they bought him Burger King), and petty thieves with their faces completely battered because they 'ran' from the cops. Nothing about apprehending a suspect requires beating them in the face. Skinned knees from take-downs make sense, black eyes, busted lips, broken noses don't. But I know what will happen if I share that article which features the bloodied, beaten faces of black suspects prominently. It will be taken down, because it's "too upsetting."

So because we can't get "too upset" over this, we're stuck talking about bands changing names, and in that context, yeah, it does seem a ridiculous movement. But if we talked about what it's *really* about, it's not so ridiculous after all.


----------



## bearcub

This is about Gavin & Stacey but it's perfectly relevant to all the TV shows which are now being viewed through a different lense.


----------



## O2.0

bearcub said:


> View attachment 442092
> 
> 
> This is about Gavin & Stacey but it's perfectly relevant to all the TV shows which are now being viewed through a different lense.


Yes, and virtue signaling is also very real. People hashtagging BLM to everything, but doing nothing to change their actual behavior, educate themselves, or really do anything differently other than share a meme here to look like they care, but go about their lives as usual changing nothing. That's not cool either.

I've had to step back a good bit from some of my actual friend's postings on social media. What I want to say is, I see your #BLM but you still insist on calling anyone who looks Mexican José and think that's funny. 
Damn... we've got such a long way to go!


----------



## Elles

If British police are inherently racist, why did they ignore the grooming gangs and arrest Tommy Robinson?

I think some of our police think they’re the sweeney or starsky and hutch down here. Speaking from personal experience.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> "Im glad I wont be here


I feel sorry for families with young children: I would not want to be bringing them up in this atmosphere - no way.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Jonescat said:


> Interesting experiment. My first one is Emmanual Acho (Sports analyst) "Being anti-racist means calling out racism wherever you see it" and then a fair few on the statue toppling in Bristol. Any one else willing to try it?


My result is the same as your result. Next is a video teaching children to be antiracist. Rest reflects the algorithms of my internet use as a white woman co-habiting with a black man, watching the world in disbelief. Good and bad.

Tired of brands adopting BLM like it's a new trend, idiots on Facebook sharing memes but then moaning about statues because they've not read up. Is it really that difficult for people to step away from the internet to read a book these days? Everyone seems to educate by social media and forums without realising they are drowning in the bias of others.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Speaking of which.. 'celebs' getting on the trend. One can see Tucci reading from a script in this video.

https://www.insider.com/celebrities-i-take-responsibility-campaign-racism-video-reactions-2020-6


----------



## Calvine

The thing about Fawlty Towers is that Basil is not being portrayed as a role model or a conventional 'hero'. He is simply a complete figure of fun to make people laugh at the very idea that anyone could display so much bigotry.


----------



## Cleo38

Calvine said:


> The thing about Fawlty Towers is that Basil is not being portrayed as a role model or a conventional 'hero'. He is simply a complete figure of fun to make people laugh at very the idea that anyone could display so much bigotry.


Fawlty Towers was hilarious & still is .. I watched old episodes over Christmas & really enjoyed them despite having watched them so many times. I also watched a few Carry On films which would be deemed racist & very sexist but I still found them hilarious. Different times then& sometimes we can cringe at things but doesn't mean they should be banned


----------



## Elles

O2.0 said:


> Yes, and virtue signaling is also very real. People hashtagging BLM to everything, but doing nothing to change their actual behavior, educate themselves, or really do anything differently other than share a meme here to look like they care, but go about their lives as usual changing nothing. That's not cool either.
> 
> I've had to step back a good bit from some of my actual friend's postings on social media. What I want to say is, I see your #BLM but you still insist on calling anyone who looks Mexican José and think that's funny.
> Damn... we've got such a long way to go!


This just got shared to my social media. How do we interpret this share?

https://www.filmsforaction.org/articles/the-white-man-in-that-photo/


----------



## Calvine

Pawscrossed said:


> Speaking of which.. 'celebs' getting on the trend.


And Harry and Meghan (apparently). I suppose Climate Change is so frightfully 2019, here's a new bandwagon to jump onto and stay relevant and in the public eye.


----------



## Elles

We’re a bunch of old cynics. :Hilarious


----------



## Calvine

Cleo38 said:


> Fawlty Towers was hilarious & still is .. I watched old episodes over Christmas & really enjoyed them despite having watched them so many times. I also watched a few Carry On films which would be deemed racist & very sexist but I still found them hilarious. Different times then& sometimes we can cringe at things but doesn't mean they should be banned


I have worked with people who were dreadfully bigoted. One was a (Russian) Jewish woman who informed me with not a hint of embarrassment that, ''All Jews absolutely hate the German Jews''. That was said in all seriousness, it was not a joke, not meant to make people laugh, not like Manuel playing the dim Spaniard and Sibyl saying patronisingly, 'He's from Barcelona' and I think there is a big difference - I think eventually the only humour allowed will be corny and slapstick which I don't find funny.


----------



## bearcub

Calvine said:


> I have worked with people who were dreadfully bigoted. One was a (Russian) Jewish woman who informed me with not a hint of embarrassment that, ''All Jews absolutely hate the German Jews''. That was said in all seriousness, it was not a joke, not meant to make people laugh, not like Manuel playing the dim Spaniard and Sibyl saying patronisingly, 'He's from Barcelona' and I think there is a big difference - I think eventually the only humour allowed will be corny and slapstick which I don't find funny.


Slapstick is offensive to clumsy people like me


----------



## Cleo38

Calvine said:


> I have worked with people who were dreadfully bigoted. One was a (Russian) Jewish woman who informed me with not a hint of embarrassment that, ''All Jews absolutely hate the German Jews''. That was said in all seriousness, it was not a joke, not meant to make people laugh, not like Manuel playing the dim Spaniard and Sibyl saying patronisingly, 'He's from Barcelona' and I think there is a big difference - I think eventually the only humour allowed will be corny and slapstick which I don't find funny.


In my job I work with lots of different people & although it's a mainly male environment I've not had much to deal with in the way of blatant sexism apart from one man. I was working on the Teminal 5 project (Heathrow airport) at the time & had to take him on a tour of the tunnels between the terminals. He told me that because of his religion (I think he was an Egyptian muslim) he wouldn't walk behind a woman & had to be ahead … which proved incredibly funny as he had no idea where he was going & as I turned a corner he had to run back then run past me so I wasn't in front. I had such fun that day!


----------



## Elles

Cleo38 said:


> Fawlty Towers was hilarious & still is .. I watched old episodes over Christmas & really enjoyed them despite having watched them so many times. I also watched a few Carry On films which would be deemed racist & very sexist but I still found them hilarious. Different times then& sometimes we can cringe at things but doesn't mean they should be banned


They wouldn't make these programmes today and supposedly we've come a long away in our entertainment at least. But back then, porn was a smutty magazine hidden under the bed, or imported illegally from Amsterdam and Barb Windsor's boobs were shocking. As was pointed out on one of the women's groups I'm a member of, today the worst of the worst is one click away and free to view, including the most horrific racism. We had the 'metoo' movement and the 'we can't consent to this' movement, but we ban Little Britain and Fawlty Towers. I'm not sure how to feel about it.


----------



## O2.0

Elles said:


> This just got shared to my social media. How do we interpret this share?
> 
> https://www.filmsforaction.org/articles/the-white-man-in-that-photo/


I'm not sure I understand your question - how to interpret the share?

The article is excellent, thank you so much for sharing. I didn't know that story, of Peter Norman. So incredibly sad, and powerful.


----------



## Elles

Oh, Emmanuel Acho has just come up on my YouTube too, alongside Tucker Carlson berating Elmo. No one can say I don’t get to see both sides lol. Can’t abide Tucker to be fair.


----------



## Elles

O2.0 said:


> I'm not sure I understand your question - how to interpret the share?
> 
> The article is excellent, thank you so much for sharing. I didn't know that story, of Peter Norman. So incredibly sad, and powerful.


I didn't know either, it made me cry, especially the photo of the two athletes carrying his coffin.

However was it shared to alleviate guilt, to demonstrate how white people also suffer from racism to black people, to show that white people do also stand up and shouldn't be dismissed in this debate? To demonstrate that this is what real anti-racism is? That I have better Facebook friends than you?  :Kiss


----------



## Lurcherlad

Elles said:


> My father in law who just lost his wife and is in his 80s has dug out his old uniform and gone to protect a war memorial.


I couldn't "like" that.

How sad he feels he has to


----------



## O2.0

Elles said:


> I didn't know either, it made me cry, especially the photo of the two athletes carrying his coffin.
> 
> However was it shared to alleviate guilt, to demonstrate how white people also suffer from racism to black people, to show that white people do also stand up and shouldn't be dismissed in this debate? To demonstrate that this is what real anti-racism is? That I have better Facebook friends than you?  :Kiss


I don't think shame/guilt is ever a useful motivator for real change, so I can't get on board with shaming people. That said, if holding up a mirror to someone's behavior makes them feel bad, then that's just good old common sense kicking in, and perhaps one might want to listen.

And absolutely, non-blacks suffer from anti-black racism. It doesn't just damage the black community, it damages all communities. Trevor Noah's book "Born a Crime" does a fabulous job of illustrating all those 'hidden' facets of racism. He's incredibly insightful.

As for white people standing up, I don't know what protests you've been watching, but there are a lot of white people in the marches, some almost entirely white, depending on what part of the country you're in. Even back during the civil rights movement, there were many white voices speaking up, white people marching, protesting, doing voter registration, sitting at lunch counters.... I don't think anyone is saying white voices shouldn't be heard?


----------



## Lurcherlad

Elles said:


> This just got shared to my social media. How do we interpret this share?
> 
> https://www.filmsforaction.org/articles/the-white-man-in-that-photo/


Wow - very powerful and moving.


----------



## O2.0

@Elles you might like this article, I can't remember if I've shared it on this thread, if I did it's been buried anyway. I think this might be what you're getting at?

https://forge.medium.com/performative-allyship-is-deadly-c900645d9f1f


----------



## Happy Paws2

Black Lives Matter of cause they do, same goes for everyone else. Continuing these protests will start to do more harm than good to the movement, they are just giving a platform for trouble makers to take them over.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> My father in law who just lost his wife and is in his 80s has dug out his old uniform and gone to protect a war memorial.


Bless him. Soldiers have been tweeting on Twitter that they are soldiers and they resent being called right wing.


----------



## kimthecat

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Chaney,_Goodman,_and_Schwerner
( warning includes small photo of their bodies )
Lets not forget the brave three young men who were civil rights activists and were murdered in 1964 by the KKK involving the local police . The film Mississippi Burning was loosely based on them.


----------



## mrs phas

Elles said:


> This just got shared to my social media. How do we interpret this share?
> 
> https://www.filmsforaction.org/articles/the-white-man-in-that-photo/


I was going to share this story the other day, but didn't, due mainly to not knowing how a certain part of this discussion would take it
I was 11 in 72 and remember watching it and not understandin
4 years later in Munich after the Israeli team members were taken hostage and killed, I was at senior school and this was brought up as part of the discussion on race, hatred, xenophobia, and traditional lands
People seem to forget that Australia was extremely racist at one time
No BAME immigrants were allowed, not even on the £10 pom drive, to try and increase the population,
Australia's answer to the question why, at the time, was
We have our own blacks and problems with them, without importing more, especially not another countries problems

For all the furour about anti apartheid and South Africa, people forget Australia was the same


----------



## Jaf

My mum went to South Africa in 1969. She chose it over Australia as you were allowed to come home quicker if you didn’t like it and it was 5pounds instead of 10.

She says she didn’t know about apartheid until she got there! It sounds completely impossible to me, both from “how could you not know” and because of the educated, well travelled woman I know. She didn’t stay long!


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> My father in law who just lost his wife and is in his 80s has dug out his old uniform and gone to protect a war memorial.


I do hope he's stays safe



Jaf said:


> My mum went to South Africa in 1969. She chose it over Australia as you were allowed to come home quicker if you didn't like it and it was 5pounds instead of 10.
> 
> She says she didn't know about apartheid until she got there! It sounds completely impossible to me, both from "how could you not know" and because of the educated, well travelled woman I know. She didn't stay long!


I had an English teacher at about the same time who had left South Africa. As a child just into secondary education, what she told us was probably my first "adult" conversation


----------



## MollySmith

Deleted


----------



## bearcub

I can't take credit for the observation, but someone on a fb group I'm on just said this...

Grenfell burned to the ground three years ago, killing 72 people. Today, more than 23000 homes in the UK are covered in the same cladding.

It took less than a week to mobilise to protect statues all over the UK, with many being removed or boarded for their own safety. 

I'm yet to see a better example of the value our society places on human life.


----------



## Elles

bearcub said:


> I'm yet to see a better example of the value our society places on human life.


Time and Money. It costs pence and minutes to cover up statues, millions and months/years to change cladding.  I'd like to see both done. I haven't messaged about the cladding for a while. Thanks for the reminder.


----------



## Elles

O2.0 said:


> I don't think anyone is saying white voices shouldn't be heard?


Yes, they are. But then there'll always be some.

My question was mainly because of your comment about people on social media virtue signalling. It made me question the share and whether I should forward it, or whether people would think I was virtue signalling. Then I remembered. I don't care what people would think.


----------



## O2.0

bearcub said:


> I can't take credit for the observation, but someone on a fb group I'm on just said this...
> 
> Grenfell burned to the ground three years ago, killing 72 people. Today, more than 23000 homes in the UK are covered in the same cladding.
> 
> It took less than a week to mobilise to protect statues all over the UK, with many being removed or boarded for their own safety.
> 
> I'm yet to see a better example of the value our society places on human life.


Can't "like" this post, it breaks my heart


----------



## bearcub

Elles said:


> Time and Money. It costs pence and minutes to cover up statues, millions and months/years to change cladding.  I'd like to see both done. I haven't messaged about the cladding for a while. Thanks for the reminder.


I don't want to add Grenfell to the numerous issues already being discussed on this thread, but just to say, the money has been ring-fenced and the government committed to replacing the cladding from all the buildings by June 2020. If it had been prioritised, it could have been done.


----------



## mrs phas

bearcub said:


> I don't want to add Grenfell to the numerous issues already being discussed on this thread, but just to say, the money has been ring-fenced and the government committed to replacing the cladding from all the buildings by June 2020. If it had been prioritised, it could have been done.


well theyve missed that date
and, if the money *is* truly ringfenced,
they shouldnt have missed it
they cant blame covid 
cos 
most construction carried on

for example, here, theyve finished building the other half of a new estate of houses, even before testing was available


----------



## bearcub

mrs phas said:


> well theyve missed that date
> and, if the money *is* truly ringfenced,
> they shouldnt have missed it
> they cant blame covid
> cos
> most construction carried on
> 
> for example, here, theyve finished building the other half of a new estate of houses, even before testing was available


They will no doubt blame Covid. 
But the truth is, between July 2019 and April 2020, 20 buildings had been completed.

https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/new...ine-for-grenfell-style-cladding-removal-66463


----------



## Happy Paws2

The BBC has lost it..............

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-53020335


----------



## Elles

Lurcherlad said:


> I couldn't "like" that.
> 
> How sad he feels he has to


There was no trouble, but they are being reported and commented in some quarters as extremist far right, which is bloody laughable. My father in law is a leftie. My brother in law also ex military is a leftie councillor and fire officer. Veterans were there to discourage people from attacking the war memorial. Who do the media think they fought in the war? Hint, it was Hitler. You know, far right extremists, fascists and nazis, the original version. Now protecting a memorial to the guys who fought and died in the Second World War, including those of black and ethnic minorities, makes British ex soldiers far right extremists. 

Pathetic.


----------



## kimthecat

Is this what Anthony Joshua meant by encouraging black people to invest in black businesses?
I hope the shop keeper was ok.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271551110621417472


----------



## kimthecat

I hope the Womens War memorial in London isn't defaced.


----------



## bearcub

kimthecat said:


> Is this what Anthony Joshua meant by encouraging black people to invest in black businesses?
> I hope the shop keeper was ok.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271551110621417472


Okay, so the camera shows that this footage is three months old - not that it matters - and this is an example of violent criminal behaviour, nothing more.


----------



## kimthecat

bearcub said:


> Okay, so the camera shows that this footage is three months old - not that it matters - and this is an example of violent criminal behaviour, nothing more.


My post was sarcasm , Sorry I didn't make that clear . It doesnt matter when it was filmed and such vicious violence is never "nothing more" but if the attackers were white it would have been much more .

London is filled with people stabbing and shooting others nearly every day ,The two black girls at Watford were stabbed to death , a Jewish man violently stabbed today but was fortunately saved by passersby . Khan cut back on police numbers and shut police stations . The Met are taking police off the streets to deal with rioters , and this is hurting Londoners of all races.


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> My post was sarcasm , Sorry I didn't make that clear . It doesnt matter when it was filmed and such vicious violence is never "nothing more" but if the attackers were white it would have been much more .
> 
> London is filled with people stabbing and shooting others nearly every day ,The two black girls at Watford were stabbed to death , a Jewish man violently stabbed today but was fortunately saved by passersby . * Khan cut back on police numbers and shut police stations . The Met are taking police off the streets *to deal with rioters , and this is hurting Londoners of all races.


It's not just London where policing has been cut, I can't remember the last time I saw a police man/woman or police car in our area, even before the lockdown they were noticeable by the absence.


----------



## Calvine

According to Sadiq Khan, he is being forced to board up statues to protect them from damage from the ''far right'' - no mention of any potential damage from BLM! It is odd you don't often hear people described as ''far left''. Basically, he himself wants them boarded up/removed but isn't saying this . . . shifting the blame on to someone else.


----------



## Happy Paws2

A statue of Mahatma Gandhi in Leicester should be removed according to campaigners.. who's going to be next?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> According to Sadiq Khan, he is being forced to board up statues to protect them from damage from the ''far right'' - no mention of any potential damage from BLM! It is odd you don't often hear people described as ''far left''. Basically, he himself wants them boarded up/removed but isn't saying this . . . shifting the blame on to someone else.


:Jawdrop


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> A statue of Mahatma Gandhi in Leicester should be removed according to campaigners.. who's going to be next?


I was surprised at that. Apparently he was racist to black people in his day, A spokesperson for BLM says they dont want it taken down as he beleived in peaceful demonstration. I think Indian people would be very upset so i hope they dont remove it. it will cause more divides.

On BBC 4 Monday at 8pm . Black and British : A forgotten history . 4 episodes. David Olusoga explores the enduring relationship between Britain and people whose origins lie in Africa.


----------



## shadowmare

People our in force “protecting” Churchill’s statue while doing the Nazi salute to it  you couldn’t make it up.


----------



## Elles

These men are so stereotypical aren’t they? We have the video of the stereotypical black gang beating and robbing a shop owner, then a video of the stereotypical white gang violently attacking the police and making nazi salutes. I expect both sides have their handmaidens egging them on. What is the matter with human beings?


----------



## kimthecat

Thugs! I feel sorry for the police, So much for distancing. if there's another spike our economy will be fecked. It feels the NHS and staff are being forgotten.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Thugs! I feel sorry for the police, So much for distancing. if there's another spike our economy will be fecked. It feels the NHS and staff are being forgotten.


Well, Kim! A lot seem to be wearing masks: not sure if this is covid-related or (and possibly more likely?) that they are simply hiding their identities to avoid detection. But yes, it's hardly a 'bubble' of six, is it. I read that three people were fined yesterday for breaking lockdown restrictions. Maybe that was just a dream?


----------



## shadowmare

Let’s see if we hear Boris condemning their actions?


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Thugs! I feel sorry for the police


That reminded me: in the past 24 hours, I have noticed three commercials for police recruitment: one in the paper, one on the car radio and one on TV. I think on the car radio one I heard they were looking to recruit (??) 48,000 - is it any wonder when so much police time is wasted on this sort of stuff.


----------



## kimthecat

@Calvine l heard that you have to hav a degree to become a police officer. They need to recruit more bame people.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> @Calvine l heard that you have to hav a degree to become a police officer. They need to recruit more bame people.


I thought there was some sort of ''fast track'' system for those heading to be inspectors/superintendants and the like. I didn't realise it was a requirement for all recruitment.


----------



## mrs phas

kimthecat said:


> Thugs!.


Careful @kimthecat !
Thug is a racially charged word these days,
One that in truth we appropriated from India in the colonial days.

Apparently we might as well call a shovel, a shovel, don't want to use the correct wording, as someone, anyone, is bound to take offence

Allegedly we might as well say N....
As brand anyone a thug

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/newsbeat-52892949

Much as I support and am an ally, of BLM and BAME/BICOP, I am sick of being told I can't say x y or z, because someone, somewhere, has to take it, twist it, and, spit it out the other end as a racial slur

Sorry if that does offend anyone, 
but
I love the English language and all of it's foibles and nuances.
People, not of colour, have a right to be offended by appropriation too


----------



## kimthecat

@mrs phas Good point 
W****** ? :Hilarious


----------



## mrs phas

kimthecat said:


> @mrs phas Good point
> W****** ? :Hilarious


:Joyful:Joyful:Bag


----------



## Jesthar

Well, well, well - looks like Fox News have been caught photoshopping images of the protests - including adding stock images of a man with an assault rifle to some pictures... :Wideyed


----------



## O2.0

mrs phas said:


> Thug is a racially charged word these days,


It is in the US.

I try to respect that in certain contexts, 'my' English may not be the English of others. If I'm in the UK, I'll adapt to the best of my awareness, and be open to being educated when I say something inappropriate. I do the same thing in Spanish which IME is even more colorful in it's differences.

The Hate U Give....


----------



## O2.0

Jesthar said:


> Well, well, well - looks like Fox News have been caught photoshopping images of the protests - including adding stock images of a man with an assault rifle to some pictures... :Wideyed


Did you see their graphic of stock market rises after public deaths of black people?


----------



## Elles

I was wondering why there isn't generally outrage and marches when an innocent, unarmed white person is killed by the police. Is it because black person killed = racism, white person killed = he must have done something to deserve it. I know I'm guilty of vaguely thinking that way sometimes. 

Someone said something like, if a house is burning you don't say all houses matter and redirect the fire brigade. Maybe not, but if you only concentrate on putting out the fire, the arsonist will find his next victim. Police are sometimes power hungry people, who get off on their elevated status. They need rooting out. Plus we need more respectful black and ethnic minority representatives in the police and it should be female officers dealing with the female victims of grooming gangs. I listened to a male subject of domestic abuse and he didn't go into the centre that would help him, because there was a female in there. So it works all ways.

Of course, just because someone is black, or a woman, it doesn't necessary make them understanding, or empathetic to other black people or women. I'm a white woman, it doesn't mean I like white women, or would treat them fairly. If you have a foul mouth, get drunk and neglect your kids, I'm more likely to think you're a cow, than wonder what hardships life has thrown at you, so I'd probably not be the best person for the job. ​


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> Well, well, well - looks like Fox News have been caught photoshopping images of the protests - including adding stock images of a man with an assault rifle to some pictures... :Wideyed


I know I shouldn't laugh, but I found a report on it showing the before and after pictures and they are so funny. Now you see him, now you don't. The same image photoshopped into others. He's standing in front of the zone, now he's standing in front of a broken window, I'm sure it's too serious for memes but I can imagine rifle mask man being in so many photos.


----------



## O2.0

Elles said:


> I was wondering why there isn't generally outrage and marches when an innocent, unarmed white person is killed by the police. Is it because black person killed = racism, white person killed = he must have done something to deserve it. I know I'm guilty of vaguely thinking that way sometimes.


Again speaking for the US and the protests in the US. 
Everyone agrees that anyone being killed is terrible. Regardless of who that person is. 
The difference though is that *in general* when a white person is killed, there is justice. The police officer (if it was a police related incident) is dealt with, the incident is thoroughly investigated, and the family of the victim gets closure. 
But all too often when a person of color is killed, there is no justice, the incident is not investigated thoroughly, there is no closure for the family, and quite often, the victim is blamed for the use of force. 
So it's not so much who is killed, but what happens after that person is killed.


----------



## kimthecat

Where's Boris? Found him ! He's at Westfield shopping centre in East London . perhaps he ran out of nappies ! 

"Today I visited Westfield shopping centre in east London, to meet some of the people who work there. They've been working very hard to get ready to reopen tomorrow when we're hoping people will return to the shops."


----------



## shadowmare

kimthecat said:


> Where's Boris? Found him ! He's at Westfield shopping centre in East London . perhaps he ran out of nappies !
> 
> "Today I visited Westfield shopping centre in east London, to meet some of the people who work there. They've been working very hard to get ready to reopen tomorrow when we're hoping people will return to the shops."


Surprised he didn't get lost in a walk-in fridge...


----------



## kimthecat

shadowmare said:


> Surprised he didn't get lost in a walk-in fridge...


Imagine finding him in your fridge!


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> @Calvine l heard that you have to hav a degree to become a police officer. They need to recruit more bame people.


The truly wonderfully diverse Anglia Ruskin has literally just launched a on-the-job degree for police officers. They really are a diverse university - unlike the other Cambridge University/Oxbridge whose reputation for attracting BAME students isn't very good. 
https://aru.ac.uk/news/aru-selected...CPjOM1y2KHCC-nTKAJr6tfCQS8yPONZwsdppVlHLKOc5A


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> Where's Boris? Found him ! He's at Westfield shopping centre in East London . perhaps he ran out of nappies !
> 
> "Today I visited Westfield shopping centre in east London, to meet some of the people who work there. They've been working very hard to get ready to reopen tomorrow when we're hoping people will return to the shops."


Ooooooooooooooh you've just solved the mystery. It's how Dominic got to Durham without a wee break. Nappies!

*A friend of mine bought a lovely house in St John's Wood years ago with her husband, they had no idea why it was so cheap until they found out after moving in that the neighbour ran a creche for men who liked to dress up in nappies. Apparently it is a 'thing'.


----------



## rona

MollySmith said:


> Ooooooooooooooh you've just solved the mystery. It's how Dominic got to Durham without a wee break. Nappies!
> 
> *A friend of mine bought a lovely house in St John's Wood years ago with her husband, they had no idea why it was so cheap until they found out after moving in that the neighbour ran a creche for men who liked to dress up in nappies. Apparently it is a 'thing'.


There was a documentary about this a few year back on TV. I can't for the life of me remember the presenter. Possibly Theroux. They are called Adult babies I think


----------



## MollySmith

rona said:


> There was a documentary about this a few year back on TV. I can't for the life of me remember the presenter. Possibly Theroux. They are called Adult babies I think


Yes I think there was, sounds like Louis. My friend since moved or her neighbour did, we lost touch.

In my early career as a junior designer I worked for a fetish magazine, it was rather educational..


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> Ooooooooooooooh you've just solved the mystery. It's how Dominic got to Durham without a wee break. Nappies!
> 
> *A friend of mine bought a lovely house in St John's Wood years ago with her husband, they had no idea why it was so cheap until they found out after moving in that the neighbour ran a creche for men who liked to dress up in nappies. Apparently it is a 'thing'.


 :Hilarious I love the way these threads twist and turn !


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious I love the way these threads twist and turn !


That's the nicest way anyone has ever said I lower the tone :Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> That's the nicest way anyone has ever said I lower the tone :Hilarious


 From Cummings to Adult babies ! Lets move on .


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> There was a documentary about this a few year back on TV. I can't for the life of me remember the presenter. Possibly Theroux. They are called Adult babies I think


Someone should give Trump and BoJo the address, they'd fit right in!


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> From Cummings to Adult babies ! Lets move on .


oh there's a rude turn of phrase here but I'm not going there..... really not going to. Yes, move on!! Haha!

thanks, you've made me laugh today on a bit of a pants day.


----------



## MollySmith

Interesting, I remember her from the Nightingale opening and standing next to a still coughing Matt Hancock looking less than comfortable 
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...opped-dominic-cummings-lockdown-a9565706.html


----------



## mrs phas

This experiment has been referred to a couple of times in this thread.
I thought maybe, that those who've never seen it, or heard of it, might like to view it
Simple but powerful

https://www.facebook.com/100001038816297/posts/3296501573727771/


----------



## mrs phas

And another rule for members of parliament
Felt sorry for the guy, who, at the begining, was standing innocently on his own (although standing in the middle of a taped off area, to ensure 2m, rule is a bit ignorant)
But surely Matt Hancock should no better
Hasn't he already had it after all?


----------



## MollySmith

Cock of the Day Award goes too....... drum roll....... :Cat Dominic Raab :Snaphappy for 'not getting down with the knee and acting like a Cock' https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...e-of-thrones-black-lives-matter-a9573141.html

Stolen from yesterday's joint winners... 
Matt Hanock for 'earning £2m a year but failing to read an autocue and acting like a cock' Daniel Rashford :Eggonface
Boris Johnson claiming that poverty has reduced even though his own Government said it had risen 'going back on my own words and acting like a Cock'  
https://fullfact.org/economy/child-poverty-keir-starmer-boris-johnson/
The District Council Network reported last month that almost half a million key workers face homelessness and poverty in and after the pandemic.


----------



## O2.0

MollySmith said:


> Cock of the Day Award goes too....... drum roll....... :Cat Dominic Raab :Snaphappy for 'not getting down with the knee and acting like a Cock' https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...e-of-thrones-black-lives-matter-a9573141.html


While I agree that his reference to GoT was embarrassing, I have to say, I respect his right to not take a knee if he doesn't want to. As a public official, yes, he should probably explain his reasons, but at the end of the day, people should be free to support (or not support) BLM however they see fit. 
I'm okay with folks not taking a knee. In fact I appreciate the honesty. There's a hell of a lot of fake virtue signaling going on, and frankly I'd rather people just be honest. Not everyone has to hop on board the movement, and we'll move faster without the dead weight anyway


----------



## lullabydream

O2.0 said:


> While I agree that his reference to GoT was embarrassing, I have to say, I respect his right to not take a knee if he doesn't want to. As a public official, yes, he should probably explain his reasons, but at the end of the day, people should be free to support (or not support) BLM however they see fit.
> I'm okay with folks not taking a knee. In fact I appreciate the honesty. There's a hell of a lot of fake virtue signaling going on, and frankly I'd rather people just be honest. Not everyone has to hop on board the movement, and we'll move faster without the dead weight anyway


I actually agree wholeheartedly.

Am glad from reading here people are learning, or have learnt.

I haven't commented because no I don't want to go to meet ups and join the others.. However I have and my children been affected by racial (and homophobic) abuse for having a person of colour as a close friend. Its only the tip of the iceberg really what he has endured in his lifetime the abuse so I don't feel I can show empathy to those people of colour and say hey I understand. I don't. So it's not that I don't support any movement to support racism. I do whole heartedly but I will carrying on listening, educating myself more. Talking to my friend and being their all the time from the sidelines. If that's not enough, we'll I don't know what is.


----------



## MollySmith

O2.0 said:


> While I agree that his reference to GoT was embarrassing, I have to say, I respect his right to not take a knee if he doesn't want to. As a public official, yes, he should probably explain his reasons, but at the end of the day, people should be free to support (or not support) BLM however they see fit.
> I'm okay with folks not taking a knee. In fact I appreciate the honesty. There's a hell of a lot of fake virtue signaling going on, and frankly I'd rather people just be honest. Not everyone has to hop on board the movement, and we'll move faster without the dead weight anyway


it was his ignorance in assuming it was related to Game of Thrones which was dubious, but yes, fair point, it is only my opinion. I simply felt that a Foreign Secretary would say so with more credibility to the position he's paid to carry out.

it's not the not kneeling I find 'cockish' - I agree, it should be an act with honesty , but the way he says it is anything but


----------



## bearcub

O2.0 said:


> While I agree that his reference to GoT was embarrassing, I have to say, I respect his right to not take a knee if he doesn't want to. As a public official, yes, he should probably explain his reasons, but at the end of the day, people should be free to support (or not support) BLM however they see fit.
> I'm okay with folks not taking a knee. In fact I appreciate the honesty. There's a hell of a lot of fake virtue signaling going on, and frankly I'd rather people just be honest. Not everyone has to hop on board the movement, and we'll move faster without the dead weight anyway


Exactly. Now is the perfect opportunity for white people to sit back and listen for a change. Sadly, the narrative - and even the cause - is bejng hijacked and losing its impact. The Game of Thrones comment demonstrates that perfectly.


----------



## MollySmith

MollySmith said:


> Cock of the Day Award goes too....... drum roll....... :Cat Dominic Raab :Snaphappy for 'not getting down with the knee and acting like a Cock' https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...e-of-thrones-black-lives-matter-a9573141.html
> 
> Stolen from yesterday's joint winners...
> Matt Hanock for 'earning £2m a year but failing to read an autocue and acting like a cock' Daniel Rashford :Eggonface
> Boris Johnson claiming that poverty has reduced even though his own Government said it had risen 'going back on my own words and acting like a Cock'
> https://fullfact.org/economy/child-poverty-keir-starmer-boris-johnson/
> The District Council Network reported last month that almost half a million key workers face homelessness and poverty in and after the pandemic.


I take it back...... Lord Alan Sugar. Apparently he doesn't know anyone whose died and being alive unfortunately means he's giving his opinions on lockdown.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273539154828242944


----------



## bearcub

MollySmith said:


> I take it back...... Lord Alan Sugar. Apparently he doesn't know anyone whose died and being alive unfortunately means he's giving his opinions on lockdown.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273539154828242944


Classic. 'It hasn't personally affected me so it can't be that bad'. What a fool.


----------



## mrs phas

MollySmith said:


> I take it back...... Lord Alan Sugar. Apparently he doesn't know anyone whose died and being alive unfortunately means he's giving his opinions on lockdown.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273539154828242944


what do you expect from Trump lite?
guess hell run for pm next


----------



## kimthecat

Looks like Rugby fans could be banned from singing Sweet Chariot. Its a beautiful song, i sing it myself sometimes.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-u...england-rugby-anthem-swing-low-sweet-chariot/
England rugby fans could soon be banned from singing 'Swing Low, Sweet Chariot' at international matches because of its origins as an anthem for American slaves.

The Rugby Football Union (RFU) announced on Thursday that it was conducting a review into the 'historical context' of the song over concerns it is inappropriate.


----------



## Sandysmum

Dominic Raab may have been a bit silly to use GOT as a reference for 'taking the knee', but he was right in saying it's a gesture of submission. It's been used as that throughout history, from showing your submission or reverence to the monarch or other 'superiors', to genuflecting in church.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Quote
Mr Kaepernick said at the time: "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of colour."

Mr Kaepernick's former teammate, Eric Reid, who began the kneeling gesture with him has said: "We chose to kneel because it's a respectful gesture. I remember thinking our posture was like a flag flown at half-mast to mark a tragedy."
Unquote

That’s why they knelt. To be respectful, while protesting - not to submit.

How Raab could misunderstand “where it came from” now so badly is beyond me tbh.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Lurcherlad said:


> Quote
> 
> How Raab could misunderstand "where it came from" now so badly is beyond me tbh.[/QUOT
> 
> *Because some politicians live in a different world to the rest of us.*


----------



## MilleD

Lurcherlad said:


> Quote
> Mr Kaepernick said at the time: "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of colour."
> 
> Mr Kaepernick's former teammate, Eric Reid, who began the kneeling gesture with him has said: "We chose to kneel because it's a respectful gesture. I remember thinking our posture was like a flag flown at half-mast to mark a tragedy."
> Unquote
> 
> That's why they knelt. To be respectful, while protesting - not to submit.
> 
> How Raab could misunderstand "where it came from" now so badly is beyond me tbh.


I did think it was a strange posture to take though when it does smack of subservience in any other situation.

I guess it was all they could do as they were _supposed _to be standing.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Looks like Rugby fans could be banned from singing Sweet Chariot. Its a beautiful song, i sing it myself sometimes.
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-u...england-rugby-anthem-swing-low-sweet-chariot/
> England rugby fans could soon be banned from singing 'Swing Low, Sweet Chariot' at international matches because of its origins as an anthem for American slaves.
> 
> The Rugby Football Union (RFU) announced on Thursday that it was conducting a review into the 'historical context' of the song over concerns it is inappropriate.


I would be interested to know how they intend to prevent 82,000 rugby supporters from singing anything if they all really wanted to. Let's face it, they could not stop thousands attending BLM protests and ignoring social distancing. ''Good luck with that, then'' as the saying goes.


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> *Looks like Rugby fans could be banned from singing Sweet Chariot. Its a beautiful song, i sing it myself sometimes.*
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-u...england-rugby-anthem-swing-low-sweet-chariot/
> England rugby fans could soon be banned from singing 'Swing Low, Sweet Chariot' at international matches because of its origins as an anthem for American slaves.
> 
> The Rugby Football Union (RFU) announced on Thursday that it was conducting a review into the 'historical context' of the song over concerns it is inappropriate.


I've never heard anything so stupid, I really think all this is getting out of hand.

I know somethings need to change but we shouldn't have to change or stop everything we have been doing for years, don't we have rights as well.


----------



## mrs phas

kimthecat said:


> Looks like Rugby fans could be banned from singing Sweet Chariot. Its a beautiful song, i sing it myself sometimes.
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-u...england-rugby-anthem-swing-low-sweet-chariot/


And repackaging Uncle Ben's rice
Even though the picture is of the guy who came up with the idea, a Chicago chef and waiter named Frank Brown
Apparently 'Uncle Ben' has too many racial undertones, even though it appertained to a fictional African American rice farmer, not a white rice farmer

Maybe 'Chef Browns' boil in the bag rice would be a suitable alternate (seeing as it was his idea)
Although I guess some could nit pick at that too


----------



## O2.0

MilleD said:


> it does smack of subservience in any other situation.


I've tried to explain that in the US, in the sports arena, 'taking a knee' is a ubiquitous sign of respect and even reflection. If the coach calls you over, out of the game and says 'take a knee' it's almost like saying 'sit here and think about it for a minute.' It's also ubiquitous to 'take a knee' for an injured player of either team.



MilleD said:


> I guess it was all they could do as they were _supposed _to be standing.


Initially Kaepernik simply sat on the bench instead of standing for the national anthem. Eventually he and a few teammates evolved in to taking a knee because of what that gesture represents.


----------



## Calvine

mrs phas said:


> And repackaging Uncle Ben's rice
> Even though the picture is of the guy who came up with the idea, a Chicago chef and waiter named Frank Brown
> Apparently 'Uncle Ben' has too many racial undertones, even though it appertained to a fictional African American rice farmer, not a white rice farmer
> 
> Maybe 'Chef Browns' boil in the bag rice would be a suitable alternate (seeing as it was his idea)
> Although I guess some could nit pick at that too


However many statues they deface/remove, however many songs they 'ban', food they repackage, it is not going to change history, and I understand now they are 'looking at' blue plaques. I seriously think someone gets up every morning looking for things which could be considered offensive. And if they get rid of Cecil Rhodes' statue, maybe get rid of the CR scholarships which help so many students. Bill Clinton had one (allegedly).


----------



## Lurcherlad

I think the emphasis needs to be more on what can be done now and going forward to change society for the betterment of all, particularly the disadvantaged.

There are a raft of reasons, not least rascism, but they all contribute.

There are many from ethnic minority groups who do prosper, despite the same start in life and ongoing struggles so maybe there is something to be learned from them too?

Drawing solely on the negatives of the past which we can’t change (but should learn from and I’m not dismissing) could cloud our view of the positives which could mould and change the future.


----------



## Snoringbear

Raab’s comments just illustrate some of the issues BLM wants to address. A privileged white male in a position of governmental power who is utterly clueless about the society he governs.


----------



## rottieboys

Snoringbear said:


> Raab's comments just illustrate some of the issues BLM wants to address. A privileged white male in a position of governmental power who is utterly clueless about the society he governs.


Why? Just because he said he would only take the knee to the queen or when he purposed to his wife. They did have a poll on Talk radio. 90% said they would not take the knee. We still have a freedom of choice in this country.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rottieboys said:


> Why? Just because he said he would only take the knee to the queen or when he purposed to his wife. *They did have a poll on Talk radio. 90% said they would not take the knee.* We still have a freedom of choice in this country.


I'm not such if I would either, not that I don't believe in what it stands for.


----------



## bearcub

So this, right here, is the white narrative. White people discussing whether other white people should kneel on the floor. Who cares? It means nothing. What should be happening is policy reform, government initiatives, Black voices being heard above everything else. This happens every time and I am covinced it is one of the reasons why we are no further forward.

*not a criticism of people on the forum*


----------



## MollySmith

rottieboys said:


> Why? Just because he said he would only take the knee to the queen or when he purposed to his wife. They did have a poll on Talk radio. 90% said they would not take the knee. We still have a freedom of choice in this country.


where is the poll? I can't see it on their website.


----------



## MollySmith

bearcub said:


> So this, right here, is the white narrative. White people discussing whether other white people should kneel on the floor. Who cares? It means nothing. What should be happening is policy reform, government initiatives, Black voices being heard above everything else. This happens every time and I am covinced it is one of the reasons why we are no further forward.
> 
> *not a criticism of people on the forum*


Agree. I saw this on social media and it's how I feel. Just because we don't know or experience racism and prejudice doesn't it doesn't happen.


----------



## rottieboys

bearcub said:


> So this, right here, is the white narrative. White people discussing whether other white people should kneel on the floor. Who cares? It means nothing. What should be happening is policy reform, government initiatives, Black voices being heard above everything else. This happens every time and I am covinced it is one of the reasons why we are no further forward.
> 
> *not a criticism of people on the forum*


What should happen then?. I keep hearing that this is one of the best counties for black people who comes to England to make a better life for themselves and their families. Good luck to them.


----------



## rottieboys

MollySmith said:


> where is the poll? I can't see it on their website.


It was on this morning with Julia Hartley-Brewer .


----------



## bearcub

rottieboys said:


> What should happen then?. I keep hearing that this is one of the best counties for black people who comes to England to make a better life for themselves and their families. Good luck to them.


Okay, so by black people, we don't mean nomadic tribes, immigrants or refugees. That's an entirely seperate conversation. We're talking about British people.


----------



## O2.0

Just as Kaepernick chose to remain seated during the national anthem, and thus, stood out from the crowd. He sent a message. 
In the same way, when an official chooses to remain standing while everyone else is taking a moment to show respect and solidarity, it would send a message. Which he is entirely entitled to do BTW. 

As I understand it Raab was speaking in the hypothetical when he said he wouldn't take a knee - there wasn't a specific situation that prompted it? 
So yes, then this becomes a bunch of white people discussing how another white person should symbolically show support. How very vapid. But a clever diversion from having to have those real, difficult, meaningful conversations. <-- this is a criticism of media and this 'story' about Mr. Raab, not the forum members.


----------



## MollySmith

Deleted, link didn’t work!


----------



## kimthecat

I read a saying something like You can't change the past but you can rewrite the future.


----------



## kimthecat

rottieboys said:


> Why? Just because he said he would only take the knee to the queen or when he purposed to his wife. They did have a poll on Talk radio. 90% said they would not take the knee. We still have a freedom of choice in this country.


I would taje the knee to the Queen ( if i could kneel that is , ) I wouldn't kneel to Raabs wife 

I'd rather stand shoulder to shoulder.


----------



## Elles

There are a lot of things I don’t suffer from and can’t possibly understand. I’m not about to beat myself up about it, or feel guilty. It’s all got way too weird for me.

Seems to me there’s cause after cause after cause and they all have socialism in common. They all want to undermine current government and are driven by leftists and activists. If they don’t start out that way for everyone, it soon becomes the agenda it seems to me. Same s***, different label.


----------



## bearcub

Elles said:


> There are a lot of things I don't suffer from and can't possibly understand. I'm not about to beat myself up about it, or feel guilty. It's all got way too weird for me.
> 
> Seems to me there's cause after cause after cause and they all have socialism in common. They all want to undermine current government and are driven by leftists and activists. If they don't start out that way for everyone, it soon becomes the agenda it seems to me. Same s***, different label.


I can't think of any recent cause specifcally designed to bring down current government. Could you give an example?


----------



## Lurcherlad

Whether Raab would “take the knee” or not isn’t the issue for me.

People absolutely have the right to make their own choice on that imo.

The fact he thought it stemmed from Game of Thrones is.


----------



## O2.0

Elles said:


> They all want to undermine current government and are driven by leftists and activists.


I always thought human rights was pretty universal. Never considered it right, left, or center.
Standing in solidarity with minority groups who are over-represented in cases of police brutality, incarceration, convictions, false accusations etc., etc. doesn't seem extremist to me at all....

But then, I'm not so far removed from the segregated south, and the civil rights advocates were considered extremists then. 
Now everyone quoting MLK like he was some kind of beloved figure, forgetting that at the time he faced criticism not just from the powers in charge but from his own church and fellow clergymen. He was arrested and put in jail too. Funny how now all of a sudden conservatives and liberals alike are quoting him and putting him forth as an example to follow. Yet at the time he was a highly controversial figure.

Makes me wonder how we will look back 50 years from now and how we will write the stories of people like Colin Kaepernick and groups like BLM.


----------



## rona

bearcub said:


> I can't think of any recent cause specifcally designed to bring down current government. Could you give an example?


I don't think it was meant like that, rather that most of the causes are taken over by leftist activists.

I do agree that these causes and demonstrations seem to be infiltrated by undesirables out to cause mischief.

Shame really, this movement could have done so much good, if it stayed about George to Floyd's death and what it highlighted


----------



## Elles

bearcub said:


> I can't think of any recent cause specifcally designed to bring down current government. Could you give an example?


should be plural. Chaz is a good example, but the organisation BLM is a Marxist/socialist organisation (the organisation, not the general movement against institutionalised racism) that wants to bring down government. As was Extinction rebellion and Greta Thunberg. As are the extremist lgbtq++ and others in academia who want to undermine free speech.

Like I said, it might not start out that way, but it doesn't take long. Depends where you're sat. If you're in the Corbyn/Starmer camp you might think it a good thing. Probably not so much if you're in the Trump/Boris camp.

Bend the knee in this country would relate more to history, knighthoods and Game of Thrones. From O2's posts it does have a different connotation and description (take the knee) in the USA. Our media has often relayed it as 'bend the knee', I doubt Raab is alone in what he thought. In the past, MLK for example, it was reported as kneeling. It's hard to keep up with what's PC these days imo.


----------



## Elles

rona said:


> I don't think it was meant like that, rather that most of the causes are taken over by leftist activists.
> 
> I do agree that these causes and demonstrations seem to be infiltrated by undesirables out to cause mischief.
> 
> Shame really, this movement could have done so much good, if it stayed about George to Floyd's death and what it highlighted


This. As soon as it happens, activists start screaming and polite, well meaning people decide it's not what they thought it was and move on. I think sometimes the activists actually get in there first and start it, but people don't realise.


----------



## bearcub

Elles said:


> should be plural. Chaz is a good example, but the organisation BLM is a Marxist/socialist organisation (the organisation, not the general movement against institutionalised racism) that wants to bring down government. As was Extinction rebellion and Greta Thunberg. As are the extremist lgbtq++ and others in academia who want to undermine free speech.
> 
> Like I said, it might not start out that way, but it doesn't take long. Depends where you're sat. If you're in the Corbyn/Starmer camp you might think it a good thing. Probably not so much if you're in the Trump/Boris camp.
> 
> Bend the knee in this country would relate more to history, knighthoods and Game of Thrones. From O2's posts it does have a different connotation and description (take the knee) in the USA. Our media has often relayed it as 'bend the knee', I doubt Raab is alone in what he thought. In the past, MLK for example, it was reported as kneeling. It's hard to keep up with what's PC these days imo.


So this is going to sound massively patronising and I don't mean it to, but I think this is what the media is telling us. The loudest, most obnoxious voices are heard over moderates but I don't think at all that this means the heart of the cause isn't still there and I certainly don't think the overriding aim is to 'bring down the government'.

I am interested in your comment about 'the extremist lgbtq++ and others in academia who want to undermine free speech.' Can I just ask what you mean by this. No lesbian, gay or bisexual person or LGB orientated organisation as far as I'm aware wants to undermine free speech. Do you mean the trans debate?


----------



## O2.0

Elles said:


> but the organisation BLM is a Marxist/socialist organisation (the organisation, not the general movement against institutionalised racism)


There is no central BLM organization - it started as a hashtag on social media (FB?) after Treyvon Martin's killer was acquitted. 
But it has remained decentralized in part I think to protect the movement from being taken over by any one group or individual. BLM simply means that black lives matter. It's not an organized group, just a message. There are groups who claim the BLM logo, but they are not BLM per se. 
Clear as mud eh


----------



## mrs phas

A step in the right direction, and, a spit in the eye for Trump?

BBC News - New York City declares Juneteenth an official holiday
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53113555

Maybe these marches and riots will do for BAME men and women, what the Stonewall ones did for the LGBTQ+ community


----------



## Elles

bearcub said:


> So this is going to sound massively patronising and I don't mean it to, but I think this is what the media is telling us. The loudest, most obnoxious voices are heard over moderates but I don't think at all that this means the heart of the cause isn't still there and I certainly don't think the overriding aim is to 'bring down the government'.
> 
> I am interested in your comment about 'the extremist lgbtq++ and others in academia who want to undermine free speech.' Can I just ask what you mean by this. No lesbian, gay or bisexual person or LGB orientated organisation as far as I'm aware wants to undermine free speech. Do you mean the trans debate?


Try voting for Trump, Boris, or Brexit and see how far you get in these movements.


----------



## MilleD

O2.0 said:


> There is no central BLM organization - it started as a hashtag on social media (FB?) after Treyvon Martin's killer was acquitted.
> But it has remained decentralized in part I think to protect the movement from being taken over by any one group or individual. BLM simply means that black lives matter. It's not an organized group, just a message. There are groups who claim the BLM logo, but they are not BLM per se.
> Clear as mud eh


These folk seem pretty sure they are an organisation 

https://blacklivesmatter.com/


----------



## bearcub

Elles said:


> Try voting for Trump, Boris, or Brexit and see how far you get in these movements.


Sorry I have no idea what you mean.


----------



## bearcub

MilleD said:


> These folk seem pretty sure they are an organisation
> 
> https://blacklivesmatter.com/


Re read the second to last sentence in the post you quoted.


----------



## MollySmith

Elles said:


> There are a lot of things I don't suffer from and can't possibly understand. I'm not about to beat myself up about it, or feel guilty. It's all got way too weird for me.
> 
> Seems to me there's cause after cause after cause and they all have socialism in common. They all want to undermine current government and are driven by leftists and activists. If they don't start out that way for everyone, it soon becomes the agenda it seems to me. Same s***, different label.


I'm really fortunate to meet lots of people from different demographics through a podcast I co-present. Within the overarching theme there are different people who maybe identify with LGBTQ+ or Black Lives Matter but I've never met anyone who is overwhelming part of an agenda. They simply want a space to educate and I'm happy to provide it as it's educational.

I think that's a myth driven by media who always seem to cherry pick the most radical when many of us are simply speaking.

I think the media play a part on this. I have been interviewed by the Daily Mail, and Reach about a subject I care about, and the resulting article was anything but through harsh editing and set out to pitch me and well respected friends as lefty, bitter old hags, relegating the support work to a footnote, We had no right to reply and no pre press approval. Articles by independent journalists are pitched and there's a few writers I trust, but too date aren't published because they're written with compassion. Publishing opinionated pieces, only expressing one view sells some type of newspapers, because certain readers like to hate, to troll , so it's never balanced. That creates movement - if anything, the same can be said of right wing too. Right wing lite to the extremists who run groups as a business with social media managers, accountants and bank accounts.

For me, my experience with the media was terrifying, I had hate mail. It made me less willing to speak out, which is oppression of sorts, alienation and misleading to anyone who read it. This is what happens when people have no voice. There has to be activism, democracy or right to reply to hold governments to account.

Not everyone bangs on a drum and adopts a cause or creates one, there are a certain level of principles that people can have in common. I see it here in our members - we unwittingly do it through words, whose posts we like.


----------



## MollySmith

Elles said:


> This. As soon as it happens, activists start screaming and polite, well meaning people decide it's not what they thought it was and move on. I think sometimes the activists actually get in there first and start it, but people don't realise.


One can say the same about the right wing groups too. Hopefully well meaning polite people are deciding it's not for them and moving on swiftly

I guess some people will look at the popularity of BLM and briefly jump on the bandwagon but within a week forget about it or move onto whatever hashtag is next which undermines the principles. Activists in the 'lite' sense are, in my opinion, well placed to give context and encourage learning. Most of the people I've been listening to or reading are in academia not socialist groups and quietly can overturn long held views providing people are open minded.


----------



## Elles

MilleD said:


> These folk seem pretty sure they are an organisation
> 
> https://blacklivesmatter.com/


Which is the organisation I was talking about.

The U.K. chapter Of this organisation says:

"We're guided by a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain and around the world. We build deep relationships across the diaspora and strategise to challenge the rise of the authoritarian right-wing across the world, from Brazil to Britain.

We note the comments regarding not being a charity. A charity structure would not allow us the freedom and flexibility to do our political work in the ways we wish to do them."

The U.K. fundraising efforts by these guys on go fund me have raised almost £1m.

It's not the media I'm talking about. I'm sure the main stream media, like the daily mail is everything you say @MollySmith . As I said a while back, my father in law went along to protect statues and was reported as being a member of the far right, which couldn't be further from the truth.

Black conservatives are complaining about it and how they can't support this organisation.


----------



## MollySmith

Elles said:


> Which is the organisation I was talking about.
> 
> The U.K. chapter Of this organisation says:
> 
> "We're guided by a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain and around the world. We build deep relationships across the diaspora and strategise to challenge the rise of the authoritarian right-wing across the world, from Brazil to Britain.
> 
> We note the comments regarding not being a charity. A charity structure would not allow us the freedom and flexibility to do our political work in the ways we wish to do them."
> 
> The U.K. fundraising efforts by these guys on go fund me have raised almost £1m.
> 
> It's not the media I'm talking about. I'm sure the main stream media, like the daily mail is everything you say @MollySmith . As I said a while back, my father in law went along to protect statues and was reported as being a member of the far right, which couldn't be further from the truth.
> 
> Black conservatives are complaining about it and how they can't support this organisation.


They aren't representative of every organisation who are asking for change. There are many charities who are relativity easy to find on social media working in advocacy and change for equality.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> I read a saying something like You can't change the past but you can rewrite the future.


 Totally! You can't change history by getting rid of a black farmer on a packet of rice. There is rather more to it than that.


----------



## Elles

MollySmith said:


> One can say the same about the right wing groups too. Hopefully well meaning polite people are deciding it's not for them and moving on swiftly


Which good causes have right wing groups hijacked to promote their cause and raise money?


----------



## rottieboys

Elles said:


> There are a lot of things I don't suffer from and can't possibly understand. I'm not about to beat myself up about it, or feel guilty. It's all got way too weird for me.
> 
> Seems to me there's cause after cause after cause and they all have socialism in common. They all want to undermine current government and are driven by leftists and activists. If they don't start out that way for everyone, it soon becomes the agenda it seems to me. Same s***, different label.


Well done , could not have said this better myself.


----------



## rottieboys

rona said:


> I don't think it was meant like that, rather that most of the causes are taken over by leftist activists.
> 
> I do agree that these causes and demonstrations seem to be infiltrated by undesirables out to cause mischief.
> 
> Shame really, this movement could have done so much good, if it stayed about George to Floyd's death and what it highlighted


Remember what happen when we were trying to get out of the EU. lots of under handed situation was going on by the lefties...We had a vote on staying or leaving the EU. Leaving won...No, they would not accept this would they...All the protesters up London. Going behind the government back to the EU.... These activists saying nasty things like The elderly don n't know what they were doing. I even heard that nasty Kevin Maguire on GMTV saying , those elderly will be dead soon....That prompted me to make a complaint again him.. Hard luck


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> if i could kneel that is


You could always curtsey, Kim! In fact this ''taking the knee'' looks to me like an exaggerated curtsey where, unlike a curtsey, one knee touches the ground.


----------



## Cleo38

Elles said:


> Which good causes have right wing groups hijacked to promote their cause and raise money?


I know there has been animal rights groups that have had support from far right groups whose main intent seemed to be promoting their anti-Muslim views under the pretence they are concerned about animal welfare & halal slaughter practises.

Unfortunately I think this seems to be common practise in all sorts of groups, political or otherwise & has been for years.


----------



## Calvine

MollySmith said:


> within a week forget about it or move onto whatever hashtag is next


 True: last year was climate change - not heard that mentioned for a few weeks. And who knows what 2021 will bring; I dread to think, truly I do.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> You could always curtsey, Kim! In fact this ''taking the knee'' looks to me like an exaggerated curtsey where, unlike a curtsey, one knee touches the ground.


Yes I can do that. I used to practise my curtsies in case I passed the Queen at the Royal Windsor Horse show. She hangs out on Fridays at the Mountain and Moorland classes. I was so awestruck I totally forgot and just stared at her .


----------



## kimthecat

The Daily mails view of BLM! by Guy Adams
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8441405/The-avowed-aims-British-arm-Black-Lives-Matter.html


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> The Daily mails view of BLM! by Guy Adams
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8441405/The-avowed-aims-British-arm-Black-Lives-Matter.html


Is that the one where they reckon that they (allegedly) want to close all the prisons? Ah yes, found the headline, will enjoy later.


----------



## O2.0

MilleD said:


> These folk seem pretty sure they are an organisation
> 
> https://blacklivesmatter.com/


Google searches are affected by algorithms and website traffic. Popping a search in google doesn't mean a whole lot.

Here, try this:
This is a database of different charities. Just for shits and giggles, do a search for Black Lives Matter. Then do a search for BLM. Then tell me who Black Lives Matter supposedly is  
https://www.charitynavigator.org/

There is probably a similar charity search for UK and European charities. Try that too. You'll see that since Black Lives Matter and BLM are not trademarked names or owned in any way, many, many people and organizations claim the name.


----------



## bearcub

Elles said:


> Try voting for Trump, Boris, or Brexit and see how far you get in these movements.


I'm still really intrigued Elles what you mean by this and also extremist LGBTQ+. I'm not intrigued so I can then try and prove you wrong, I just don't know what you mean. Probably because I am a remain voting Liberal lesbian.


----------



## Elles

O2.0 said:


> Google searches are affected by algorithms and website traffic. Popping a search in google doesn't mean a whole lot.
> 
> Here, try this:
> This is a database of different charities. Just for shits and giggles, do a search for Black Lives Matter. Then do a search for BLM. Then tell me who Black Lives Matter supposedly is
> https://www.charitynavigator.org/
> 
> There is probably a similar charity search for UK and European charities. Try that too. You'll see that since Black Lives Matter and BLM are not trademarked names or owned in any way, many, many people and organizations claim the name.


They're not a charity. As I pointed out in my post, they say they don't want charitable status.

The UKBLM have raised over £1m on their go fund me and are supported by the organisation in the USA, BLM foundation. They are being put forward as the main organisation and have raised millions for the cause, which includes defunding the British police etc. The original point was about donating money.


----------



## O2.0

Elles said:


> They're not a charity. As I pointed out in my post, they say they don't want charitable status.


I'm not saying they are. 
You said BLM are a marxist organization etc. I'm saying BLM isn't *one* organization. It's a hashtag that multiple organizations have appropriated.

But let's go your route. If you do a search on gofundme for Black lives matter you get thousands of hits, all with different mission statements and goals.


----------



## Elles

O2.0 said:


> I'm not saying they are.
> You said BLM are a marxist organization etc. I'm saying BLM isn't *one* organization. It's a hashtag that multiple organizations have appropriated.
> 
> But let's go your route. If you do a search on gofundme for Black lives matter you get thousands of hits, all with different mission statements and goals.


I said this group are and linked to them, whilst also separating them from the movement. Rona also linked this specific group. They are the main group being promoted in the U.K. as the go to, to support Black Lives Matter.

Do a search on go fund me for Black lives matter U.K. I think one hit will stand head and shoulders (Hundreds of thousands) above the other 300 odd groups. Some of the London groups have raised a few quid, but nothing compares to this group.


----------



## Elles

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/...work-found-establishes-12-m-grant/3212637001/

The last paragraph does say why it might be important to check that the group you are donating to is the right one and you do actually support its aims. These groups are getting millions.

"The network has also been in a tug of war with a California-based organization called the "Black Lives Matter Foundation," which has accepted donations that do not support the movement. The other group reportedly raised millions of dollars in recent weeks from small individual gifts and from employees of large corporations, such as Apple and Microsoft, who believed they were supporting the Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation."


----------



## Calvine

Calvine said:


> not heard that mentioned for a few weeks


 I spoke too soon (am quoting myself here).
Predictably, she has got in on the act:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...r-protests/ar-BB15Kvav?ocid=spartan-dhp-feeds


----------



## Elles

bearcub said:


> I'm still really intrigued Elles what you mean by this and also extremist LGBTQ+. I'm not intrigued so I can then try and prove you wrong, I just don't know what you mean. Probably because I am a remain voting Liberal lesbian.


Hmm. Maybe try Arielle Scarcella on YouTube?


----------



## O2.0

Elles said:


> I said this group are and linked to them, whilst also separating them from the movement. Rona also linked this specific group. They are the main group being promoted in the U.K. as the go to, to support Black Lives Matter.
> 
> Do a search on go fund me for Black lives matter U.K. I think one hit will stand head and shoulders (Hundreds of thousands) above the other 300 odd groups. Some of the London groups have raised a few quid, but nothing compares to this group.


I guess I just don't understand what you're trying to prove. 
All I'm saying (post 890) is that BLM is not one single organization, so while the UK group you're linking may have a specific agenda, it's not representative of any BLM agenda other than that specific one.

It's no more accurate to say this one BLM group represents the movement than it is to say CM represents dog training. They might be big with a lot of followers, but that doesn't mean it's what BLM is about.


----------



## MollySmith

Elles said:


> Which good causes have right wing groups hijacked to promote their cause and raise money?


I have known counter protests, and bad causes but good, no. But then I don't tend to follow or associate with them, I find it too miserable and I'd lose all hope if I engaged to much.


----------



## MollySmith

rottieboys said:


> Remember what happen when we were trying to get out of the EU. lots of under handed situation was going on by the lefties...We had a vote on staying or leaving the EU. Leaving won...No, they would not accept this would they...All the protesters up London. Going behind the government back to the EU.... These activists saying nasty things like The elderly don n't know what they were doing. I even heard that nasty Kevin Maguire on GMTV saying , those elderly will be dead soon....That prompted me to make a complaint again him.. Hard luck


Voting doesn't mean everyone has to bow down and say, oh well we lost, what a shame, you were right and we were wrong, If that was the case we would still be on herd immunity and believing that there isn't any child poverty. Without democracy it comes an oppressive state ruled by a dictatorship.

I have a slight issue with the use of elderly and lefty as labels here. People. When does one become elderly and lefty anyway.


----------



## Elles

O2.0 said:


> I guess I just don't understand what you're trying to prove.
> All I'm saying (post 890) is that BLM is not one single organization, so while the UK group you're linking may have a specific agenda, it's not representative of any BLM agenda other than that specific one.
> 
> It's no more accurate to say this one BLM group represents the movement than it is to say CM represents dog training. They might be big with a lot of followers, but that doesn't mean it's what BLM is about.


Yeah, that's what I said. BLM has been hijacked by leftists with a political agenda. People donating money to reform the police and to represent and help Bame communities and neighbourhoods have been donating millions to further a socialist cause.

If people were donating millions to CM thinking they were doing good for dogs, wouldn't you point it out? If everyone marching were marching for CM techniques to be applied in law, by shelters and trainers, wouldn't you say hang on a minute. Last week it was be kind to animals and robust policing over animal welfare issues, now you're promoting CM?  That's what it looks like to me. It's gone from black lives matter, to down with the rich and if you voted for Trump you ain't black.


----------



## O2.0

Elles said:


> Yeah, that's what I said. BLM has been hijacked by leftists with a political agenda. People donating money to reform the police and to represent and help Bame communities and neighbourhoods have been donating millions to further a socialist cause.
> 
> If people were donating millions to CM thinking they were doing good for dogs, wouldn't you point it out? If everyone marching were marching for CM techniques to be applied in law, by shelters and trainers, wouldn't you say hang on a minute. Last week it was be kind to animals and robust policing over animal welfare issues, now you're promoting CM?  That's what it looks like to me. It's gone from black lives matter, to down with the rich and if you voted for Trump you ain't black.


Oh okay I see now, fair enough. I was under the impression that you disapproved of the BLM hashtag/movement.

Given that people like Mike Pence still refuse to even utter the words Black Lives Matter, it shows we have a long, long way to go still.


----------



## MollySmith

Elles said:


> I said this group are and linked to them, whilst also separating them from the movement. Rona also linked this specific group. They are the main group being promoted in the U.K. as the go to, to support Black Lives Matter.
> 
> Do a search on go fund me for Black lives matter U.K. I think one hit will stand head and shoulders (Hundreds of thousands) above the other 300 odd groups. Some of the London groups have raised a few quid, but nothing compares to this group.


That's Google Analytics. The way we search (people in general) and the terms we use push sites up Google or other search engines. It's called Search Engine Optimisation and it's something I work on with my clients. It's driven by plug-ins to websites sometime but mostly the art of marrying the terms we search on to the text on a website. If people stopped searching Black Lives Matter and searches.... Gorgeous Goats... the websites on attractive goats would appear. If the gorgeous goat website had text all about Black Lives Matter it wouldn't rank in Google's algorithm and therefore not appear. That's SEO in a short summary, you have referred to this before in relation to You Tube and I thought it would be useful to summarise as it's not bribery to be top of a search term.

If they popped up with an advert (they don't) then that would be questionable as they paid for an advert to promote above others.


----------



## MilleD

O2.0 said:


> Oh okay I see now, fair enough. I was under the impression that you disapproved of the BLM hashtag/movement.
> 
> Given that people like Mike Pence still refuse to even utter the words Black Lives Matter, it shows we have a long, long way to go still.


I think you have to be a certain sort of tosser to disagree with what the basis of the BLM movement is about.

It's the people piggybacking that folks disagree with and sadly will probably undermine that movement.


----------



## MollySmith

Actually when I search Black Lives Matter UK I get the joyous explosion of knobbery from the Daily Mail.


----------



## MollySmith

Calvine said:


> True: last year was climate change - not heard that mentioned for a few weeks. And who knows what 2021 will bring; I dread to think, truly I do.


3 day week and all back to 1971 I imagine, we'll be sweating it out in corduroy and tank tops.

oooh maybe the stocks. We could social distance and throw chlorinated chicken at errant politicians, we've got a plague..


----------



## Elles

MollySmith said:


> Actually when I search Black Lives Matter UK I get the joyous explosion of knobbery from the Daily Mail.


lol, you aren't searching on go fund me then?


----------



## O2.0

MilleD said:


> I think you have to be a certain sort of tosser to disagree with what the basis of the BLM movement is about.


Oh I don't think @Elles is a tosser at all! 
There are a lot of people actually who disagree with the whole BLM anti-racism ideals not because they're tossers but because they're confused (understandably so looking at just this thread) about what the whole movement is about and the extent of systemic racism.


----------



## Elles

I get BLM Facebook, cbs news and the telegraph talking about Glasgow. I have a better class of search engine algorithms again.  

oh the mail has just popped up talking about BLM marching on capitals this weekend. I haven’t got the article linked earlier coming up at all. :Writing


----------



## Elles

This guy just came up on my YouTube. He is way too clever for me.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> This guy just came up on my YouTube. He is way too clever for me.
> 
> ]


What a measure response. A pleasure to listen to that after all the hate and blame


----------



## mrs phas

MollySmith said:


> . If people stopped searching Black Lives Matter and searches.... Gorgeous Goats... the websites on attractive goats would appear.


I dread to think what kind of goat porn might pop up


----------



## kimthecat

As to the Press, a nasty tweet in the middle of the page by Guardian writer Hannah Jane Parkinson in reference to the police woman whose horse bolted. At the time it wasn't known the rider was a woman.


----------



## MollySmith

Elles said:


> lol, you aren't searching on go fund me then?


No just Google.


----------



## MollySmith

mrs phas said:


> I dread to think what kind of goat porn might pop up


God knows but I've been waiting for some goat photos on here and nobody has obliged as yet. I bought a donkey for my Zoom meetings this week, highlight of my week!


----------



## kimthecat

A friend of mine had goats . not a very good picture though.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I love goats they are so cheeky


----------



## shadowmare

I see old man Nige is out in USA. Nice of him to go on a cross Atlantic trip while we get judged for driving to IKEA.


----------



## rona

MollySmith said:


> God knows but I've been waiting for some goat photos on here and nobody has obliged as yet. I bought a donkey for my Zoom meetings this week, highlight of my week!


Even better


----------



## MollySmith

rona said:


> Even better


I knew you wouldn't let us down!


----------



## MollySmith

shadowmare said:


> I see old man Nige is out in USA. Nice of him to go on a cross Atlantic trip while we get judged for driving to IKEA.


He will get stuck in 14 day isolation one assumes on the way back. But yes it's a bit hypocritical, typically


----------



## MollySmith

I just wanted to pay tribute to football. It’s back this weekend and I’ve been listening and watching. I know it’s far from free of racism from going to matches but I felt so many examples have been set, not just by Marcus Rashford but by many clubs. Our local league two club have phoned my husband several times in lockdown to make sure he was well and have been running daily exercise videos for families since March. The honest conversations about racism have also been really good too, time and time again I’ve heard ‘it’s okay to ask and get it wrong, but ask’ or words to that effect. I know it’s not everyone’s cup of tea and not always mine, more my husband’s thing but credit where it’s due.


----------



## Jesthar

MollySmith said:


> I bought a donkey for my Zoom meetings this week, highlight of my week!


Waitaminute - regular people can buy BoJo now? Thought that was reserved for the billionaires?


----------



## MollySmith

Jesthar said:


> Waitaminute - regular people can buy BoJo now? Thought that was reserved for the billionaires?


OMG you've made me spill wine. Haha!


----------



## MollySmith

Seriously if I bought him, I’d padlock him into a fridge for four years.


----------



## Jesthar

MollySmith said:


> Seriously if I bought him, I'd padlock him into a fridge for four years.


Seems a bit lenient... 

Also, rather harsh on the poor fridge!


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> I love goats they are so cheeky


We need to start a goat thread!


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> I just wanted to pay tribute to football. It's back this weekend and I've been listening and watching. I know it's far from free of racism from going to matches but I felt so many examples have been set, not just by Marcus Rashford but by many clubs. Our local league two club have phoned my husband several times in lockdown to make sure he was well and have been running daily exercise videos for families since March. The honest conversations about racism have also been really good too, time and time again I've heard 'it's okay to ask and get it wrong, but ask' or words to that effect. I know it's not everyone's cup of tea and not always mine, more my husband's thing but credit where it's due.


I think its good the teams did the knee today. There has been such dreadful racism in football in the past , the clubs are making much more effort but it still happens.

Did you watch I am not your ***** tonight? I was changing channels and caught a couple of minutes and I couldn't watch anymore. Horrific.


----------



## Calvine

MollySmith said:


> sweating it out in corduroy and tank tops


Flares too! I noticed in H&M that flares were back, so hoarders who kept their old wardrobe are set to go!


----------



## MilleD

O2.0 said:


> Oh I don't think @Elles is a tosser at all!
> There are a lot of people actually who disagree with the whole BLM anti-racism ideals not because they're tossers but because they're confused (understandably so looking at just this thread) about what the whole movement is about and the extent of systemic racism.


You know I wasn't saying that Elles was a tosser!!


----------



## MilleD

rona said:


> Even better


Look how they do the instinctive kick thing when they jump to fend off a cheetah.


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> I think its good the teams did the knee today. There has been such dreadful racism in football in the past , the clubs are making much more effort but it still happens.
> 
> Did you watch I am not your ***** tonight? I was changing channels and caught a couple of minutes and I couldn't watch anymore. Horrific.


I didn't but I am sure it was challenging to watch, thank you for reminding me it was on, I'll see if it's on catch up.

My husband is a life long football fan (and used to play too) so I'm become a fan through him and seen it change over the years but I noticed a very honest conversation between Ian Wright, Gary Linekar and Alan Shearer on BBC which was very different to the past ones I've seen in football commentary. It feels like in the past when there has been racist chants there has been, rightly so, a condemnation of it, but never a conversation about context or learning which they had. It echoes a lot of what has been expressed here, that move from 'I Am Not A Racist' go anti-racism and calling it out. Massive respect to them, as a Geordie by birth slight bias to Shearer but a good call by them to talk about getting it wrong before, in the future but to keep talking to learn more and that Wright has the space to remind them. I think football has a huge influence, all sport does and it crosses demographics is a way that is unique. Sadly some of my husband's friends are intolerant and stray to racism and perhaps seeing respected players stand in solidarity might change their thinking, I really hope so.


----------



## O2.0

MilleD said:


> You know I wasn't saying that Elles was a tosser!!


No I knew you weren't saying that, just clarifying I wasn't saying that either!


----------



## O2.0

kimthecat said:


> We need to start a goat thread!


You know, we used to have some great times on here.... Remember the square wolf thread? Back before threads got closed right away 
But honestly, as many times as I've been reprimanded for the goats by both moderation and regular members, it's taken the joy out of it.


----------



## kimthecat

O2.0 said:


> You know, we used to have some great times on here.... Remember the square wolf thread? Back before threads got closed right away
> But honestly, as many times as I've been reprimanded for the goats by both moderation and regular members, it's taken the joy out of it.


 No, dont recall that thread but i remember the one about an oblong dog :Hilarious


----------



## MollySmith

O2.0 said:


> You know, we used to have some great times on here.... Remember the square wolf thread? Back before threads got closed right away
> But honestly, as many times as I've been reprimanded for the goats by both moderation and regular members, it's taken the joy out of it.


Ah no, I don't remember that but goodness there are so many more reasons to reprimand than goats. Maybe we need an animals we can add to dull online meetings thread.


----------



## SusieRainbow

O2.0 said:


> You know, we used to have some great times on here.... Remember the square wolf thread? Back before threads got closed right away


This thread has run for *48 *pages, hardly closed straght away !
Sorry f you're not happy with the moderation..


----------



## kimthecat

SusieRainbow said:


> This thread has run for *48 *pages, hardly closed straght away !
> Sorry f you're not happy with the moderation..


I think it's meant to be tongue in cheek. You all do a magnificent job here. 

Was there really a square wolf thread. i took it as a joke. ?


----------



## O2.0

kimthecat said:


> No, dont recall that thread but i remember the one about an oblong dog :Hilarious


This thread was epic  
https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/i-intend-to-breed-my-great-danes-but.361470/

There were other fun ones, one where smokeybear was talking about marigolds (the gloves), I can't remember what that was about but I do remember wishing I could brain bleach 



SusieRainbow said:


> This thread has run for *48 *pages, hardly closed straght away !
> Sorry f you're not happy with the moderation..


Obviously this thread hasn't been closed. I was talking about the "I want to breed my dog" threads and similar type threads that get closed as soon as the OP gets a little offended. I don't mean let it stay open so people can berate the OP, but letting members have a discussion about breeding (or whatever the topic is) seems pretty harmless. But what do I know, that's why I'm not a mod 

The berating for goats was before your time as a mod. Though just psychologically I find it interesting that I used to use goats to try and diffuse uncomfortable situations, now we're doing the same thing, diffusing a difficult conversation with goats. When I did it it was juvenile and inappropriate, but it's okay now LOL 
Hey, I guess I was just ahead of my time


----------



## SusieRainbow

kimthecat said:


> I think it's meant to be tongue in cheek. You all do a magnificent job here.
> 
> Was there really a square wolf thread. i took it as a joke. ?


I'm not so sure, but thanks !
Yes, there was a thread started by someone who wanted a wolfish looking dog that didn't shed or bark or poop, you get the idea. It was great fun !


----------



## SusieRainbow

O2.0 said:


> now we're doing the same thing, diffusing a difficult conversation with goats. When I did it it was juvenile and inappropriate, but it's okay now LOL


I'm confused, where are the goats?


----------



## O2.0

SusieRainbow said:


> I'm confused, where are the goats?


Molly started it post 935 

Let the record show it was not me who mentioned goats!


----------



## SusieRainbow

O2.0 said:


> Molly started it post 935
> 
> Let the record show it was not me who mentioned goats!


Oh,I missed that ! But I don't follow this thread that closely.


----------



## MollySmith

Yes I'm the goat herder.... :Smuggrin:Bookworm

"Inserts goat and tenuous pandemic link to get thread back on track (can't see any goaty Cummings links...."


----------



## mrs phas

MollySmith said:


> Yes I'm the goat herder.... :Smuggrin:Bookworm
> 
> "Inserts goat and tenuous pandemic link to get thread back on track (can't see any goaty Cummings links...."


ive seen this before of course
but
something just hit me 
that posting on fb where it goes on about if we humans all disapeared
and
within a year X would happen,
within 10 years Y would happen 
and 
within 100 years we'd reach Z
and 
it would be like we'd never been here

boy! 
did they get it wrong
it happened a whole lot quicker than that

shame, how it will all be like it never happened, from tomorrow


----------



## Pawscrossed

I have rather lost track of this thread. I took a break for a while as it was really hard to see doubt creep in here and I found it frustrating. 

We went for a walk today and I'm sad to say that my partner's son was stopped by the police for innocently walking the dog. I was with him but as I am white, they saw no connection. I can't go into the details as we have raised a complaint as I was disturbed to find him being asked about drugs when we've had a long chat about this and his school are wonderful at education on this. I understand that Pet Forum posts can be found on Google. It is to say that because you may not experience it - I think I am the only person here posting with a family member from the BAME community - it does happen. I knew many kind and thoughtful police officers and I am sure you do to. They do great things but this was not a good thing.

Whilst Black Lives Matter is an umbrella group, it does set out to educate. That is the most important thing anyone can do. I seek to explain to my stepson about drugs, crime and remind him to rise up and set a good example but ignorance sets others back, it has to be a two way street. If you don't support Black Lives Matter there are lots of other groups. It really isn't hard to find them. Buy a book from a black writer and learn, or listen to a podcast.


----------



## Boxer123

Pawscrossed said:


> I have rather lost track of this thread. I took a break for a while as it was really hard to see doubt creep in here and I found it frustrating.
> 
> We went for a walk today and I'm sad to say that my partner's son was stopped by the police for innocently walking the dog. I was with him but as I am white, they saw no connection. I can't go into the details as we have raised a complaint as I was disturbed to find him being asked about drugs when we've had a long chat about this and his school are wonderful at education on this. I understand that Pet Forum posts can be found on Google. It is to say that because you may not experience it - I think I am the only person here posting with a family member from the BAME community - it does happen. I knew many kind and thoughtful police officers and I am sure you do to. They do great things but this was not a good thing.
> 
> Whilst Black Lives Matter is an umbrella group, it does set out to educate. That is the most important thing anyone can do. I seek to explain to my stepson about drugs, crime and remind him to rise up and set a good example but ignorance sets others back, it has to be a two way street. If you don't support Black Lives Matter there are lots of other groups. It really isn't hard to find them. Buy a book from a black writer and learn, or listen to a podcast.


Really well said thank you for your post. I think education is key.


----------



## MollySmith

Pawscrossed said:


> I have rather lost track of this thread. I took a break for a while as it was really hard to see doubt creep in here and I found it frustrating.
> 
> We went for a walk today and I'm sad to say that my partner's son was stopped by the police for innocently walking the dog. I was with him but as I am white, they saw no connection. I can't go into the details as we have raised a complaint as I was disturbed to find him being asked about drugs when we've had a long chat about this and his school are wonderful at education on this. I understand that Pet Forum posts can be found on Google. It is to say that because you may not experience it - I think I am the only person here posting with a family member from the BAME community - it does happen. I knew many kind and thoughtful police officers and I am sure you do to. They do great things but this was not a good thing.
> 
> Whilst Black Lives Matter is an umbrella group, it does set out to educate. That is the most important thing anyone can do. I seek to explain to my stepson about drugs, crime and remind him to rise up and set a good example but ignorance sets others back, it has to be a two way street. If you don't support Black Lives Matter there are lots of other groups. It really isn't hard to find them. Buy a book from a black writer and learn, or listen to a podcast.


I am so very sorry to hear about your stepson, how terribly sad. And thank you for the reminder, it's good to nudge us.


----------



## MollySmith

I think I can post this here - no goats unless we think the PM's hair has a goaty appeal? TBF I don't think it's Boris alone, so much as a cabinet led by Cummings. A bit worrying really and posting not for a political wrangle but so you can make your mind up about the risk.


----------



## Elles

My son has been stopped on his bike a few times. He was arrested over a YouTube viral video they thought might be him when he shared it. It was a video where there was no accident, law broken, or injury, but they thought the bike might have been going too fast. They sent 4 cars and armed police to my house on a Sunday evening. We’re law abiding citizens living in a nice area and my son didn’t even have a parking ticket. We’re also white. Bikers can be idiots though, as can the coppers sometimes, so I’m not really surprised. Afterwards we educated ourselves on what the police can and can’t do and wouldn’t ask them in.


----------



## MollySmith

Elles said:


> My son has been stopped on his bike a few times. He was arrested over a YouTube viral video they thought might be him when he shared it. It was a video where there was no accident, law broken, or injury, but they thought the bike might have been going too fast. They sent 4 cars and armed police to my house on a Sunday evening. We're law abiding citizens living in a nice area and my son didn't even have a parking ticket. We're also white. Bikers can be idiots though, as can the coppers sometimes, so I'm not really surprised. Afterwards we educated ourselves on what the police can and can't do and wouldn't ask them in.


I am not sure but I think @Pawscrossed stepson is black. I read that it was a possible racial issue.


----------



## lullabydream

MollySmith said:


> I am not sure but I think @Pawscrossed stepson is black. I read that it was a possible racial issue.


I think Elles is showing that race isn't always part of being stopped by the police.. Being a young male also has statistics to it too.


----------



## Elles

MollySmith said:


> I am not sure but I think @Pawscrossed stepson is black. I read that it was a possible racial issue.


Yes and we're white, had a bad experience with the police, who were rude and pushy and never returned the electronics/camera equipment/phone/laptop they took, despite being asked repeatedly, so now we would never invite them into our house again. They're like vampires, you have to invite them in. (Unless they have a warrant).

I agree that sometimes crime prevention is a fine balance, but they do need to treat their victims politely with respect, if they don't want to turn people against them. Bad enough when racism isn't part of it is what I'm trying to say, add that to the mix and if they are blatantly racist and behaving badly, they should get the sack. It's enough to put decent people off them for life. I hope you get resolution. But yes, being young and male can also be a factor of course.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Yes, my stepson is black and I have a godson who is white, both are the same age and the difference between how they are treated is eye opening. This is the point I was making.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Boxer123 said:


> Really well said thank you for your post. I think education is key.





MollySmith said:


> I am so very sorry to hear about your stepson, how terribly sad. And thank you for the reminder, it's good to nudge us.


Thank you for your kind words, and understanding the point I was making.


----------



## StormyThai

Maybe it is just me but your post comes over very dismissive to me (again it might just be me reading it wrong!)
It comes across as "Yeah but my white son gets stopped too" when neither incident are comparable (IMO)...one is a young lad walking his dog in a public place doing nothing wrong yet he still gets stopped...whereas your son was question about a case that he may have something to do.

Sorry but they are not the same...I've had issues with the police over the years, as a young girl driving big cars I was ALWAYS pulled over, as a white girl all I had to do was produce my license, they checked that the car was mine (or that I had permission to drive said car) and I had insurance and then I went on my way...If you put a POC in the same position it would not go down the same way.


----------



## Pawscrossed

StormyThai said:


> Maybe it is just me but your post comes over very dismissive to me (again it might just be me reading it wrong!)
> It comes across as "Yeah but my white son gets stopped too" when neither incident are comparable (IMO)...one is a young lad walking his dog in a public place doing nothing wrong yet he still gets stopped...whereas your son was question about a case that he may have something to do.
> 
> Sorry but they are not the same...I've had issues with the police over the years, as a young girl driving big cars I was ALWAYS pulled over, as a white girl all I had to do was produce my license, they checked that the car was mine (or that I had permission to drive said car) and I had insurance and then I went on my way...If you put a POC in the same position it would not go down the same way.


Thank you, I wasn't sure if I had got this wrong too!

Yes that is how I read it but I can't go into the specifics of my stepson anyway, but they are very different @Elles I can assure you simply from reading your post and the context you've given. I may have misunderstood too.

My partner's sister is often pulled over in her car. She's never so much as broken the speed limit. Person most likely to be arrested for being a slow driver (I jest!)! She is a PhD doctor in psychology and works silly hours in mental health care and as a Samaritan. This means she's driving through London at odd times. I've lost track of how many times she has been stopped, blocked too in her car and taken to a station for doing nothing but driving alone. Despite carrying papers that prove her qualifications and job (@Elles I don't know if you have any professional or degree certificates but I am sure you don't keep them in your car if you did!) Her friends, white, never (including me) or it's a caution or fine for actual wrong doing like speeding or whatever. It is different, very much so. It's the action in the first place and the assumption and behaviours that lead to it.

If I have misunderstood your intentions then my apologies Elles, but I will stress again that my post was to show that learning about anti-racism matters, it is through this that we'll stop trying to assume white privilege doesn't exist. Ironically from your reply to me, I read that it does but again, I may have misunderstood and so may you, since I was not able to give details but I will say my stepson was walking the dog. That was all.


----------



## Elles

Pawscrossed said:


> Thank you, I wasn't sure if I had got this wrong too!
> 
> Yes that is how I read it but I can't go into the specifics of my stepson anyway, but they are very different @Elles I can assure you simply from reading your post. I may have misunderstood too. Okay so this. My partner's sister is often pulled over in her car. She's never so much as broken the speed limit. Person most likely to be arrested for being a slow driver! She is a PhD doctor in psychology and works silly hours in mental health care and as a Samaritan. This means she's driving through London at odd times. I've lost track of how many times she has been stopped, blocked too by police and taken to a station for doing nothing but driving alone. Despite carrying papers that prove her qualifications and job (@Elles I don't know if you have any professional or degree certificates but I am sure you don't keep them in your car if you did) Her friends, white, never or it's a caution or fine for actual wrong doing like speeding or whatever. It is different, very much so.


My son did nothing wrong.

I would never trust them or let them in my house ever again and have educated myself on exactly how to respond if something similar happens.

One unfair and ott incident was enough to put me off them for life, which is the crux of my story. If it was on a regular basis due to my race, I don't know how I'd feel about it. I'd probably be more angry with each incident and although entitled to do something about it, would probably think it's not worth it. Can drag you down. It's a hugely complex issue imo. And as I said, I hope you get resolution.

I don't blame you for thinking I'm posting a tit for tat, or victim olympics type post, but no, that's not how I meant it.


----------



## Elles

Pawscrossed said:


> My partner's sister is often pulled over in her car. She's never so much as broken the speed limit. Person most likely to be arrested for being a slow driver (I jest!)! She is a PhD doctor in psychology and works silly hours in mental health care and as a Samaritan. This means she's driving through London at odd times. I've lost track of how many times she has been stopped, blocked too in her car and taken to a station for doing nothing but driving alone.


It is never about this. It is always about the young black males.

Either 'they're stopped too often and treated badly, it's racism'. Or 'it's not, they deserve it, they carry knives and stab each other.' Back and forth, with nothing being addressed.

If a woman with paperwork is stopped because she's driving alone at a weird time, (as someone else posted they were too as a white girl driving the 'wrong' car) that's just on the side of maybe I'll put up with it, though I fail to see why really. If said woman is taken to the police station, that's crazy stuff wtf? What do they think she's doing? Why do they think they have good reason? Are women not allowed out at night? That sounds sexist and racist, a waste of public funds and lazy arse policing of easy targets imo. Throw the book at them.


----------



## Elles

The partner of one of my sons is Filipino, but it’s not relevant as I don’t live with them, their life experience will be totally different. I haven’t seen them since the lockdown.


----------



## kimthecat

Allison Pearson wrote this in her newspaper column.  FFS I cannot believe she wrote it.


----------



## kimthecat

Cambridge Uni is standing by her as they believe in free speech , So thats ok, then !


----------



## Elles

There’s been hardly any mention of the homophobic stabbing of 3 gay white men. The couple who paid to have the ‘White Lives Matter Burnley’ banner flown a few days afterwards have been doxxed and sacked and barred from attending football matches. I’d say yeah, given current days, it was a bit crass of them, but to lose your job over it? All banners banned from the airport, putting other livelihoods at risk. 

Saying white lives matter doesn’t dilute or affect the BLM movement at all. If they’d flown a banner saying black lives don’t matter, that would have been racist and deserving of punishment. 

What would bring communities together, would be prominent BAME people and communities actually supporting the couple, saying the banner didn’t harm them and they should be reinstated. Instead of screaming ‘burn them all!’ rise above it. I’m not convinced MSM would report it even if they did though. I think many want white folk to suffer and it’s ok to say so atm. Seems to be getting more divisive not less. 

Depressing isn’t it.


----------



## Cleo38

Elles said:


> There's been hardly any mention of the homophobic stabbing of 3 gay white men. The couple who paid to have the 'White Lives Matter Burnley' banner flown a few days afterwards have been doxxed and sacked and barred from attending football matches. I'd say yeah, given current days, it was a bit crass of them, but to lose your job over it? All banners banned from the airport, putting other livelihoods at risk.
> 
> Saying white lives matter doesn't dilute or affect the BLM movement at all. If they'd flown a banner saying black lives don't matter, that would have been racist and deserving of punishment.
> 
> What would bring communities together, would be prominent BAME people and communities actually supporting the couple, saying the banner didn't harm them and they should be reinstated. Instead of screaming 'burn them all!' rise above it. I'm not convinced MSM would report it even if they did though. I think many want white folk to suffer and it's ok to say so atm. Seems to be getting more divisive not less.
> 
> Depressing isn't it.


I agree, I thought the banner stunt was unnecessary & crass but not illegal or racist. I also wondered if the couple involved could challenge their employers for sacking them, it really seems like a knee jerk reaction tbh & not sure what this will achieve.

How can an academics opinions on Twitter which are critical of white people ok (as posted by @kimthecat ) but the banner which didn't criticise anyone be deemed 'shameful' & the police involved?


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> Cambridge Uni is standing by her as they believe in free speech , So thats ok, then !


I kind of get what she's saying and it would be controversial in normal times, but not on Twitter and not today when there's so much heat already, I'd get it. It could prompt a discussion on what 'white' means and involve discussing 'seeing black' and what that means. She's not calling to an end to white people, any more than someone calling for an end to patriarchy wants all men gone. (Ok, so maybe some do, but generally lol)

Like the banner saying white lives matter, wrong time, wrong place, but no one needs to be losing any jobs.


----------



## Lurcherlad

I just don’t see how banners saying Black Lives Matter can be ok and ones saying White Lives Matter are not.

If the idea is “equality for all” then that is the opposite, surely?

It just doesn’t make sense to me and will create problems I think.

(Not saying it was a good idea btw.)


----------



## Elles

Lurcherlad said:


> I just don't see how banners saying Black Lives Matter can be ok and ones saying White Lives Matter are not.
> 
> If the idea is "equality for all" then that is the opposite, surely?
> 
> It just doesn't make sense to me and will create problems I think.
> 
> (Not saying it was a good idea btw.)


Because that's not what she said. She's trying to be clever. She said 'White lives don't matter.. as white lives'. Interpret it as lives matter, as people, not as whites. In an academic setting it would prompt discussion on what is white, what is black, it's deeper than talking about skin colour, or race whilst also being provocative. However today is not the time to be provocative, evenmoreso if she is racist and using it to provoke and then claim innocent intent. But that's what she's saying imo.

oops replying to the comment the woman made, not the banner. Lol


----------



## Pawscrossed

Lurcherlad said:


> I just don't see how banners saying Black Lives Matter can be ok and ones saying White Lives Matter are not.
> 
> If the idea is "equality for all" then that is the opposite, surely?
> 
> It just doesn't make sense to me and will create problems I think.
> 
> (Not saying it was a good idea btw.)


It is the context. It was flown past at the time everyone was taking the knee. I have distant relatives in Burnley and they are firm fans of Nigel Farage :Arghh It strikes me as volatile area as far as racism is concerned and our views differ to the degree that I am not longer welcome because my partner is black! More here on the incident. 
https://talksport.com/football/7211...he-uks-anti-racism-fight-has-only-just-begun/

There is more on the banner here, it is much more than White Lives Matter, which isn't a very good argument. Nobody is saying white lives aren't important. Noone has said o_nly _Black lives matter; black lives _also_ matter, and be treated as others are. More on that here
https://www.bustle.com/articles/171...all-lives-matter-because-this-has-got-to-stop


----------



## Lurcherlad

Pawscrossed said:


> It is the context. It was flown past at the time everyone was taking the knee. I have distant relatives in Burnley and they are firm fans of Nigel Farage :Arghh It strikes me as volatile area as far as racism is concerned and our views differ to the degree that I am not longer welcome because my partner is black! More here on the incident.
> https://talksport.com/football/7211...he-uks-anti-racism-fight-has-only-just-begun/
> 
> There is more on the banner here, it is much more than White Lives Matter, which isn't a very good argument. Nobody is saying white lives aren't important. Noone has said o_nly _Black lives matter; black lives _also_ matter, and be treated as others are. More on that here
> https://www.bustle.com/articles/171...all-lives-matter-because-this-has-got-to-stop


I know all that, but my point stands regarding the flying banner imo.

Like I said, I don't think it was a good idea (quite the opposite in fact).


----------



## Elles

Pawscrossed said:


> It is the context. It was flown past at the time everyone was taking the knee. I have distant relatives in Burnley and they are firm fans of Nigel Farage :Arghh It strikes me as volatile area as far as racism is concerned and our views differ to the degree that I am not longer welcome because my partner is black! More here on the incident.
> https://talksport.com/football/7211...he-uks-anti-racism-fight-has-only-just-begun/
> 
> There is more on the banner here, it is much more than White Lives Matter, which isn't a very good argument. Nobody is saying white lives aren't important. Noone has said o_nly _Black lives matter; black lives _also_ matter, and be treated as others are. More on that here
> https://www.bustle.com/articles/171...all-lives-matter-because-this-has-got-to-stop


I agree, it was a crass and stupid thing to do, but sacking them isn't going to help anything and these kind of politics should be kept out of football. They're picking and choosing. Saying footballers can't do one thing because it could be seen as political, but they have to do another, because it's political. Fans the flames. The banner didn't say black lives don't matter, so the same argument can be used.

However, when women talk about rape crisis centres, refuges and protection from domestic abuse, you can pretty much guarantee that men will pop up, saying what about us. We commit suicide more often, we get abused too. Today mate, it's not about you. Today it's about us. Well this day it's about racism.

On saying that, 3 white men were just stabbed in a park.

No one should get doxed and sacked over it. Those two lives and more will likely be a living hell, for being stupid. Their company will be under attack, they will be under attack, the club will be under attack. Over a banner that people thought 'offensive', but broke no law. Today's culture.


----------



## havoc

Lurcherlad said:


> I just don't see how banners saying Black Lives Matter can be ok and ones saying White Lives Matter are not


I think it's because the 'white lives matter' is seen as a retaliation and therefore somehow against the 'black lives matter' message. I'm guessing a banner saying 'all lives matter' probably wouldn't be viewed so badly - only guessing mind you.


----------



## O2.0

I despair sometimes at having any sort of meaningful conversations about race amid the confusion and distraction of media and social media. 
Just did a quick peruse of FB and the latest counter to any BLM debate is that the Irish were also enslaved. Which of course they were. But the kicker is the post is accompanied by a photo of 20th Century Belgian coal miners in a mine elevator meant to depict Irish slaves being transported in the 1600's. I'll reiterate the 'photo' part. Never mind that the dress was also clearly *not* 17th or even 18th century 
The number of people who unthinkingly accept and share so very clearly false information...


----------



## havoc

O2.0 said:


> I despair sometimes at having any sort of meaningful conversations about race amid the confusion and distraction of media and social media.
> Just did a quick peruse of FB and the latest counter to any BLM debate is that the Irish were also enslaved. Which of course they were. But the kicker is the post is accompanied by a photo of 20th Century Belgian coal miners in a mine elevator meant to depict Irish slaves being transported in the 1600's. I'll reiterate the 'photo' part. Never mind that the dress was also clearly *not* 17th or even 18th century
> The number of people who unthinkingly accept and share so very clearly false information...


Well you know the adage, never let the truth get in the way of a good story


----------



## O2.0




----------



## ForestWomble

I wish for a day when all lives matter, regardless of colour, gender, age, how much money you have, etc etc.


----------



## O2.0

I'd settle for people to matter more than statues and monuments. At least as a start.

All lives do matter @ForestWomble as pointed out in one of the articles @Pawscrossed posted, "Black Lives Matter" is about focus, not exclusion." Focusing on racism doesn't mean that we ignore other 'isms, biases, bigotry, and unfair practices. Just that this conversation is focused on anti black racism.


----------



## Happy Paws2

ForestWomble said:


> I wish for a day when all lives matter, regardless of colour, gender, age, how much money you have, etc etc.


I agree, there are to many people been killed around the world of all colours it's not just blacks. How many white people have been targeted and killed over the last few years by extreme groups. Our lives matter just as much but you'd never think so.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> I agree, there are to many people been killed around the world of all colours it's not just blacks. How many white people have been targeted and killed over the last few years by extreme groups. Our lives matter just as much but you'd never think so.


And we can't claim racism, though it's certainly an issue with some. Dianne Abbot has certainly come extremely close to the line or to my mind even crossed it a few times


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> Cambridge Uni is standing by her as they believe in free speech , So thats ok, then !


I've been trying to make sense of this.... apparently it also seems to involve fake tweets and then Sarah Vine (wife of Gove and Daily Wail writer) got involved. Then I got lost as Twitter moved way to fast. It hasn't popped up here locally, our press is struggling for news so I expect they will pick it up.

I think she makes a valid point but in a very 240 character way - abolishing white privilege does mean a more balanced society. It's not that white lives don't matter, it's that right now we need to give the space to ethnic minorities (then they may not be minorities amymore). But I think the intake of black students is really low which is hugely frustrating.


----------



## MollySmith

Happy Paws2 said:


> I agree, there are to many people been killed around the world of all colours it's not just blacks. How many white people have been targeted and killed over the last few years by extreme groups. Our lives matter just as much but you'd never think so.


The issue is the response. There is loads of data out there to show that black people are more likely to be stopped, arrested or killed and that can be historic legacies of suppression though. If you go back to Windrush, Brixton riots so much of this can be due to housing and living conditions too. Architecture plays a massive part in human psychology. All housing was, probably is, controlled by largely white councils (at least here where I live). And it isn't saying white lives matter. White lives always matter, but we've always been more important throughout history or what has been told told to us and that's not entirely accurate either. That's the trouble.

When someone has a loss, nobody says my loss is more than yours so stop crying (unless you're my parents who did say that to me....) it's about recognising a situation and expressing empathy. Allowing that person to speak about their pain. The more we say all lives, white lives, the less space there is to speak. We lay on more oppression.

***

I don't know.... I feel we (PF in general) are in danger of being a lot of white people here going round in circles. How many of us have actually gone and picked up a book on slavery, racism or from any recommended book list, watched a film, listens to a podcast etc. Really, honestly? Actually challenged ourselves. I wanted to read loads of books but I'm stuck on this one and realising how limited my views are and how much more I should know but I'm a bit daunted.


----------



## O2.0

MollySmith said:


> When someone has a loss, nobody says my loss is more than yours so stop crying


A good explanation I heard is that responding to Black Lives Matter with All Lives Matter is like me telling you my mother died, and you responding by saying all mothers die. It's true, it's accurate, but in this moment my mother has died, and you telling me all mothers die is dismissive of my pain in this moment. And quite hurtful frankly.

Then there's the fire analogy. If one house in the neighborhood is on fire you deal with that fire, you don't say 'but all houses matter, why are you directing all your attention to this house?'

I'm an ethnic looking middle class white woman who works largely with minorities and underprivileged children. I will never know exactly what it is like to be a black child growing up in a racist paradigm, but I see subtle and even overt racism play out all the time. To the point that I'm sensitized to it, though I manage not to be reactive - usually  I think. In the same way others might be completely desensitized and don't notice racism at all.

I can't help but think that a lot of this conversation just doesn't get it, and sadly on some level don't even want to, or may be completely desensitized to it. Which I suppose is natural human self-preservation. But the only way change is going to happen is by first acknowledging that there is a problem. Being able to say Black Lives Matter is a step towards acknowledging the problem.

Notice Mike Pence (US VP) refused repeatedly to say Black Lives Matter in this interview. Can you imagine how exhausting it must be to be a black person in the US right now?


----------



## MollySmith

MollySmith said:


> The issue is the response. There is loads of data out there to show that black people are more likely to be stopped, arrested or killed and that can be historic legacies of suppression though. If you go back to Windrush, Brixton riots so much of this can be due to housing and living conditions too. Architecture plays a massive part in human psychology. All housing was, probably is, controlled by largely white councils (at least here where I live). And it isn't saying white lives matter. White lives always matter, but we've always been more important throughout history or what has been told told to us and that's not entirely accurate either. That's the trouble.
> 
> When someone has a loss, nobody says my loss is more than yours so stop crying (unless you're my parents who did say that to me....) it's about recognising a situation and expressing empathy. Allowing that person to speak about their pain. The more we say all lives, white lives, the less space there is to speak. We lay on more oppression.
> 
> ***
> 
> I don't know.... I feel we (PF in general) are in danger of being a lot of white people here going round in circles. How many of us have actually gone and picked up a book on slavery, racism or from any recommended book list, watched a film, listens to a podcast etc. Really, honestly? Actually challenged ourselves. I wanted to read loads of books but I'm stuck on this one and realising how limited my views are and how much more I should know but I'm a bit daunted.


Nothing like being on PF and forgetting that you're meant to be on a podcast as one of the hosts..... recording an episode on facing change and people of colour. Ironic.

But one of the most educative two hours I've spent for a long time. The episode was with four black women and an Asian woman from USA and UK. Boy, do we all have a lot to learn.


----------



## rona

MollySmith said:


> When someone has a loss, nobody says my loss is more than yours so stop crying


Someone on here said exactly that to me when I lost my mother. They are still here too


----------



## MollySmith

O2.0 said:


> A good explanation I heard is that responding to Black Lives Matter with All Lives Matter is like me telling you my mother died, and you responding by saying all mothers die. It's true, it's accurate, but in this moment my mother has died, and you telling me all mothers die is dismissive of my pain in this moment. And quite hurtful frankly.
> 
> Then there's the fire analogy. If one house in the neighborhood is on fire you deal with that fire, you don't say 'but all houses matter, why are you directing all your attention to this house?'
> 
> I'm an ethnic looking middle class white woman who works largely with minorities and underprivileged children. I will never know exactly what it is like to be a black child growing up in a racist paradigm, but I see subtle and even overt racism play out all the time. To the point that I'm sensitized to it, though I manage not to be reactive - usually  I think. In the same way others might be completely desensitized and don't notice racism at all.
> 
> I can't help but think that a lot of this conversation just doesn't get it, and sadly on some level don't even want to, or may be completely desensitized to it. Which I suppose is natural human self-preservation. But the only way change is going to happen is by first acknowledging that there is a problem. Being able to say Black Lives Matter is a step towards acknowledging the problem.
> 
> Notice Mike Pence (US VP) refused repeatedly to say Black Lives Matter in this interview. Can you imagine how exhausting it must be to be a black person in the US right now?


The mother analogy came up in our podcast this morning.

also anger and how that's being reflected back. As one guest put it, my family owned land, were forced from the Carribbean through slavery, rape, chains (made in the Uk) and the white community are angry? There's also the slavery debt which all British taxpayers paid into as compensation to victims of slavery.... including ethnic minorities...

I have so much to share but I'm going to be super brave as I am hugely private on here and let the forum known where the episode is published and offer to share a link. It's far far far better to hear our guests speak. I'll put my own narrative on it which is oppressive in it's own way and I'm buying into the thing I'm suggesting we do less of- be a bunch of white people. Best lesson I learned was be aware of our biases and racist views because we all have them, and work on it. There are so many resources from arts to films, books. We have no excuse not to.


----------



## rona

MollySmith said:


> How many of us have actually gone and picked up a book on slavery, racism or from any recommended book list, watched a film, listens to a podcast etc. Really, honestly?


Oddly

I was still taught about slavery at school and have watched several progammes on it since watching Roots in my late teens.
Yes it was awful and it wasn't ancient history, but it is history


----------



## Elles

rona said:


> And we can't claim racism, though it's certainly an issue with some. Dianne Abbot has certainly come extremely close to the line or to my mind even crossed it a few times


Dianne Abbot has been treated atrociously. I accept that some individuals are racist and sexist and she's had to put up with both. I don't agree with her politics, but watch this, then read the comments. I don't think we have institutionalised racism in this country, it's illegal, but my oh my, individuals.  I find it quite interesting to see a 1987 interview in relation to today too.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> Dianne Abbot has been treated atrociously. I accept that some individuals are racist and sexist and she's had to put up with both. I don't agree with her politics, but watch this, then read the comments. I don't think we have institutionalised racism in this country, it's illegal, but my oh my, individuals.  I find it quite interesting to see a 1987 interview in relation to today too.


I can't hear it even with my sound turned up to max


----------



## mrs phas

rona said:


> I can't hear it even with my sound turned up to max


me neither
tried subtitles but they give no neuance


----------



## Calvine

Cleo38 said:


> but not illegal or racist.


I believe the police actually admitted that ''no crime had been committed'', so were not taking any action.


----------



## Elles

mrs phas said:


> me neither
> tried subtitles but they give no neuance


oh how weird, it's fine on my iPad. 

I turned the sound off and put the captions on. They're awful, doesn't work at all. It's a shame, because from a modern historical standpoint and to see prejudice today, it's very interesting I felt. The subtleties in language and overall acceptance in the interview is quite stark and the comments section quite revealing. Ah well.


----------



## Elles

So in American politics you have a white man who won’t say that black lives do matter and another white man who tells black people they aren’t black.

Nice choice.


----------



## O2.0

Elles said:


> So in American politics you have a white man who won't say that black lives do matter and another white man who tells black people they aren't black.
> 
> Nice choice.


Isn't it though? 
Is it any surprise that people are as fed up as they are?


----------



## Elles

O2.0 said:


> Isn't it though?
> Is it any surprise that people are as fed up as they are?


Once upon a time Barack Obama was your president, handsome, well spoken, educated, family man and we were envious and wanted one like that too. You can keep your current crop. :Hilarious

(Speaking for myself ofc )


----------



## Elles

MollySmith said:


> The mother analogy came up in our podcast this morning.
> 
> also anger and how that's being reflected back. As one guest put it, my family owned land, were forced from the Carribbean through slavery, rape, chains (made in the Uk) and the white community are angry? There's also the slavery debt which all British taxpayers paid into as compensation to victims of slavery.... including ethnic minorities...
> 
> I have so much to share but I'm going to be super brave as I am hugely private on here and let the forum known where the episode is published and offer to share a link. It's far far far better to hear our guests speak. I'll put my own narrative on it which is oppressive in it's own way and I'm buying into the thing I'm suggesting we do less of- be a bunch of white people. Best lesson I learned was be aware of our biases and racist views because we all have them, and work on it. There are so many resources from arts to films, books. We have no excuse not to.


Have you posted the podcast? I've been looking out for it, but can't see a link or anything anywhere yet?


----------



## MollySmith

Calvine said:


> I believe the police actually admitted that ''no crime had been committed'', so were not taking any action.


----------



## MollySmith

Elles said:


> Have you posted the podcast? I've been looking out for it, but can't see a link or anything anywhere yet?


Nope, not yet. when it's recorded happy to share link to anyone who messages me so I retain some privacy. We record and then it's about 2 weeks before it's released.


----------



## Boxer123

MollySmith said:


> Nope, not yet. when it's recorded happy to share link to anyone who messages me so I retain some privacy. We record and then it's about 2 weeks before it's released.


I would be interested if you wanted to pm.


----------



## kimthecat

sorry if this has already been mentioned. TV programme. The School that tried to end racism . The second part is on Thursday channel 4 9pm. Will have you in tears.


----------



## MollySmith

Boxer123 said:


> I would be interested if you wanted to pm.


I'll do my best to remember, in meantime these are some others recommended to me and The History Chicks was another.


----------



## MollySmith

Remember the reason for this thread.....


----------



## rona

MollySmith said:


> Remember the reason for this thread.....
> 
> ]


Oh I haven't forgotten and never will.


----------



## havoc

O2.0 said:


> Then there's the fire analogy. If one house in the neighborhood is on fire you deal with that fire, you don't say 'but all houses matter, why are you directing all your attention to this house?'


What if more than one house is on fire? Don't they all matter? I'd like to think that however misguided, that's what those who would use 'all' mean. That everyone should 'matter' equally. I agree it doesn't acknowledge the current situation the same, show a deep understanding of the problem or has the same rallying call for change but I don't think it comes from a bad place.


----------



## O2.0

havoc said:


> What if more than one house is on fire? Don't they all matter? I'd like to think that however misguided, that's what those who would use 'all' mean. That everyone should 'matter' equally. I agree it doesn't acknowledge the current situation the same, show a deep understanding of the problem or has the same rallying call for change but I don't think it comes from a bad place.


I think you can nit-pick the literal meaning of Black Lives Matter all day long but I'll continue to take my cues from minority communities and acknowledge that responding to Black Lives Matter with All Lives Matter is hurtful, dismissive, painful, and not helpful.
Interestingly adding in Latino Lives Matter or Native Lives Matter is not (other houses on fire) - again, focus, not exclusion.


----------



## havoc

O2.0 said:


> I think you can nit-pick the literal meaning of Black Lives Matter all day long but I'll continue to take my cues from minority communities and acknowledge that responding to Black Lives Matter with All Lives Matter is hurtful, dismissive, painful, and not helpful.


The risk there lies in making people too frightened to say anything for fear of saying the wrong thing and the whole thing becomes more divisive. That would be a shame when education and discussion are of such huge importance.


----------



## O2.0

havoc said:


> The risk there lies in making people too frightened to say anything for fear of saying the wrong thing and the whole thing becomes more divisive. That would be a shame when education and discussion are of such huge importance.


Again, taking my cues from the black community. I'm going to shut up and listen for now. Others obviously can do whatever they want, but for me, I'm not frightened of saying anything, I'm just stepping back long enough to listen, absorb, and process. It doesn't require me saying anything. There's an entire community asking to be heard, so I'm trying to listen.

And in all honesty, it's not like the white community doesn't have a voice, can't say what they want, and haven't been forever. Adding the black voice that has been drowned out for so long isn't going to silence white voices.


----------



## O2.0

Just to add @havoc given that the president of the US retweeted a video with people shouting "***********" I *really* don't think we have an issue of people being afraid to speak up. 
Nor do I think defending Black Lives Matter is what's causing division.


----------



## Pawscrossed

I have no idea how to make these fit best. They are, perhaps a better way to look at this. It is empathy.


----------



## havoc

O2.0 said:


> Just to add @havoc given that the president of the US retweeted a video with people shouting "***********" I *really* don't think we have an issue of people being afraid to speak up.
> Nor do I think defending Black Lives Matter is what's causing division


Those who are happy to be shouting '***********' aren't the people I'm talking about - and I think you know that.


----------



## MollySmith

Pawscrossed said:


> View attachment 443551
> View attachment 443552
> View attachment 443553
> View attachment 443554
> View attachment 443555
> View attachment 443556
> View attachment 443557
> View attachment 443558
> 
> 
> I have no idea how to make these fit best. They are, perhaps a better way to look at this. It is empathy.


Love love love this, it just makes so much sense!


----------



## MollySmith

rona said:


> Oh I haven't forgotten and never will.


bang on! Me neither


----------



## Jaf

The thing for me is that BLM doesn’t compute. My first thought was “yes”, my second was “what are you saying?”. I don’t think that as a slogan/ statement it says anything to me. Using the vegetable statement gives me the same response, that of “yes” and “what does that mean”. ALM is just as meaningless, though I personally attach a vegan-ish tint to it.


----------



## MollySmith

havoc said:


> The risk there lies in making people too frightened to say anything for fear of saying the wrong thing and the whole thing becomes more divisive. That would be a shame when education and discussion are of such huge importance.


Agree.

I feel now is the time to preface what we say with.. 'I might f this up' or whatever but... and for us - society at large - to be open minded enough to be corrected or acknowledge that there are still answers. We're going to wriggle in discomfort

On Saturday in the podcast we three white presenters openly said we may well use the wrong words but by the end I had learned better to ask than be silent. Our guests were simply so thrilled to be given so space to speak after being frightened to speak themselves for so long.


----------



## Elles

I hope they explain why they were frightened to speak and what about. 

The carrot analogy is daft imo. Saying broccoli are also vegetables doesn’t make carrots any less of a vegetable either lol.


----------



## Elles

O2.0 said:


> Just to add @havoc given that the president of the US retweeted a video with people shouting "***********" I *really* don't think we have an issue of people being afraid to speak up.
> Nor do I think defending Black Lives Matter is what's causing division.


Typical Trump and your current White House isn't it? Doubt he even really looked at it, or heard it before he went off to play golf. He'd have to be stupid to promote *********** in the current situation. (No comment, he's your president, not mine:Bag). I think he'll get away with it, because no one will think he meant it, or that the old man in the retirement village was doing anything other than deliberately winding up the opposition campaigning at the side of the road.


----------



## O2.0

havoc said:


> Those who are happy to be shouting '***********' aren't the people I'm talking about - and I think you know that.


I'm not suggesting you're trying to defend someone shouting ***********, though much as it pains me, it's their right to do so in a free country. 
What I am suggesting is that worrying about hurt feelings in the white community because they're scared of saying something 'wrong' is not really a priority. We're all going to say the wrong thing, and we're all going to have to humble ourselves and be open to being corrected and educated. 
A friend of mine explains it well - sit in your discomfort, it's not my job to ease it for you. It's not the black community's job to make us feel better about being ignorant, it's our job to educate ourselves.



Elles said:


> Doubt he even really looked at it, or heard it before he went off to play golf.


You can't miss it. And frankly I'm getting tired (not you, the president's apologists) of the excuse that he just doesn't know, doesn't pay attention, whatever. He shared a video where multiple times, very clearly the person said *********** less than 10 seconds in. He did hear it, and is a big enough idiot to not care and share the video anyway. We have to admit our president has been sending dog whistles to the white nationalists his entire campaign and presidency starting when he refused to disavow David Duke's endorsement, continuing all along to yesterday when he shared that video. It was not an innocent mistake and saying it was (again, his apologists, not you) is just more of what the whole BLM movement is trying to address.


----------



## kimthecat

O2.0 said:


> What I am suggesting is that worrying about hurt feelings in the white community because they're scared of saying something 'wrong' is not really a priority. We're all going to say the wrong thing, and we're all going to have to humble ourselves and be open to being corrected and educated.
> A friend of mine explains it well - sit in your discomfort, it's not my job to ease it for you. It's not the black community's job to make us feel better about being ignorant, it's our job to educate ourselves.


I'm not sure I understand . I took it that white people were worried about saying something "wrong" because they don't want to upset or hurt the feelings of Bame people more than they feel discomfort for themselves.
At least these people care and dont want to offend when many are racist and dont give a sh*t.

Also its gets confusing , black people saying different things , its not our job to educate white people ( as seen on Twitter ) and then others saying Just ask if you want to know. If we white people have to be corrected and educated who is going to do this when its not black peoples job. Also , if you have to ask then you're racist. This shuts people down and I wonder in the US if this will make more people vote for Trump?

As Ive mentioned many times , I live in a mixed Bame community , I talk to my neighbours and people in the street and park, we talk about the weather , the garden , car parking and the rubbish mainly. Conversations don't get that deep.


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> Also , if you have to ask then you're racist. This shuts people down


This is what annoys me most. If you say the slightest thing that doesn't fit, that's with any activist group not just BLM. Then you are deemed to be some sort of bigot 
Doesn't matter if you were born in a different era and cannot quite get your head around all the changes.
If you don't understand computers because you weren't bought up with them, you aren't demonized for it!



kimthecat said:


> As Ive mentioned many times , I live in a mixed Bame community , I talk to my neighbours and people in the street and park, we talk about the weather , the garden , car parking and the rubbish mainly. Conversations don't get that deep.


This is how it should be, The people in my road are very diverse, gay, various ancestries, several disabled, different religious beliefs as well. None that I have come across feel the need to throw any of those in anyone's face and we all seem to muck along quite happily in the normal way that grown up, decent people do.

I know some live in very different neighbourhoods, but that's more about environment than any differences listed above


----------



## rona

I see Keir Starmer has upset a few people on this matter. The video is on Twitter and I don't know how to show it on here


----------



## Elles

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1277556165040148485
This one @rona ?


----------



## Elles

O2.0 said:


> You can't miss it.


You can if you don't have the sound on, or your hearing aid in.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1277556165040148485
> This one @rona ?


Yep. They aren't happy with him at all. This is Caroline Lucas chance


----------



## O2.0

kimthecat said:


> I'm not sure I understand . I took it that white people were worried about saying something "wrong" because they don't want to upset or hurt the feelings of Bame people more than they feel discomfort for themselves.
> At least these people care and dont want to offend when many are racist and dont give a sh*t.


You're right, there are many, many genuinely nice, caring people who are just trying not to upset people. I get that. 
But when you couch your concern for upsetting the black community with a "yeah but" and "I don't feel like I can say anything" it gives a much different vibe. It starts sounding more like a concern for being able to speak than a desire to not do harm.



rona said:


> If you don't understand computers because you weren't bought up with them, you aren't demonized for it!


I see older people demonized for not being able to use computers all the time, especially now that so much work is based on google meets and zoom meetings. Not being able to navigate the platform is fodder for eyerolls and derision. This is something I'm very close to as I have several co-workers who depend on me to help them because according to my superiors I have the 'patience' for it. Which itself is not very nice, as if someone is less deserving of patience because they're less familiar with computers. 
Actually thank you for bringing this up, because now that I type this out, I realize I've been listening to derision towards older folks who struggle with computers and I don't say anything, and it's not right and I should say something.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> You can if you don't have the sound on, or your hearing aid in.


It has subtitles , yay!

Mayor Khan is defunding the Met police anyway , not enough money in the pot.

ETA I thought this was in reference to Keir Starmer and his interview


----------



## O2.0

Elles said:


> You can if you don't have the sound on, or your hearing aid in.


You're obviously much more forgiving than I am. 
If he didn't have such a long history of supporting anti-black groups I'd maybe go with your version, but given his behavior and long history of being totally okay with overt, blatant racism, I don't think he gets an out here. 
He knew exactly what he was doing, and if he didn't know, he should have. But I think he knew.


----------



## Elles

O2.0 said:


> You're obviously much more forgiving than I am.
> If he didn't have such a long history of supporting anti-black groups I'd maybe go with your version, but given his behavior and long history of being totally okay with overt, blatant racism, I don't think he gets an out here.
> He knew exactly what he was doing, and if he didn't know, he should have. But I think he knew.


lol forgiving. I'm insulting your president, but he's so bad you think it's a compliment. :Hilarious

Either he's arrogant and doesn't care enough to check what his supporters are saying before he tweets it. He's arrogant and thinks he's Teflon coated and can say and do whatever he wants, including promoting '***********' attitudes. He's not all there. Whichever it is, he'll probably get away with it, which isn't great commentary on some of your fellow Americans either.  He was a friend of pervert Epstein too wasn't he?

iow, I agree with your assessment. 

I hear he's thinking of standing down and no longer running for another term? Rumour and wishful thinking? Fake news?


----------



## O2.0

Elles said:


> I hear he's thinking of standing down and no longer running for another term? Rumour and wishful thinking? Fake news?


Oh if only! I haven't heard that, but if he did you know it would be something along the lines of "you're so mean to me"


----------



## kimthecat

It seems Iran want Trump arrested for killing Qassem Soleimani. Wow.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...or-donald-trump-over-qassem-suleimani-killing


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> It has subtitles , yay!
> 
> Mayor Khan is defunding the Met police anyway , not enough money in the pot.
> 
> ETA I thought this was in reference to Keir Starmer and his interview


These threads do get a bit confusing. 

I expect Starmer is in trouble for drawing attention to the billion dollar global organisation and calling BLM proper a moment.


----------



## MollySmith

rona said:


> Yep. They aren't happy with him at all. This is Caroline Lucas chance


I'm a bit lost on the defunding the police. Maybe @O2.0 might know more from USA side, but as I understand it here, I _think_ it's about better accountability to public. I've not read anything about anyone saying they don't want to devolve it but when they call 999 or 101, they get unbiased service. But I'm a bit lost, too much stuff going on. Easily confused!

I got distracted by Boris's virility push up challenge and Starmer suggesting first to 50


----------



## MollySmith

Elles said:


> lol forgiving. I'm insulting your president, but he's so bad you think it's a compliment. :Hilarious
> 
> Either he's arrogant and doesn't care enough to check what his supporters are saying before he tweets it. He's arrogant and thinks he's Teflon coated and can say and do whatever he wants, including promoting '***********' attitudes. He's not all there. Whichever it is, he'll probably get away with it, which isn't great commentary on some of your fellow Americans either.  He was a friend of pervert Epstein too wasn't he?
> 
> iow, I agree with your assessment.
> 
> I hear he's thinking of standing down and no longer running for another term? Rumour and wishful thinking? Fake news?


I think he was last seen telling everyone to go out and vote and bollocks to that virus thing. :Arghh


----------



## O2.0

MollySmith said:


> I'm a bit lost on the defunding the police. Maybe @O2.0 might know more from USA side,


Not gonna lie, I'm a bit lost too. 
It depends largely on who you ask. Some people do quite literally mean get rid of the police. Given you can call 911 because a black man asked you to leash your dog... yeah, I can see that - sort of.

Some people mean reallocate the funds that go to the police for things that can be done by other agencies. For example, the police respond to noise complaints, that's a community issue, not a police issue. Or traffic stops, that sort of thing, you can have road safety officers who are separate from police officers. You don't need some guy with a gun to give you a speeding ticket. Or people call the police because their kid refuses to go to school (yes really) and the police HAVE to respond, they can't not respond to calls. 
Taking funds away from the police and reallocating them to other programs that are more specifically geared towards that issue. But again, I'm not entirely sure how that would work or what it would look like.


----------



## Elles

MollySmith said:


> I'm a bit lost on the defunding the police. Maybe @O2.0 might know more from USA side, but as I understand it here, I _think_ it's about better accountability to public. I've not read anything about anyone saying they don't want to devolve it but when they call 999 or 101, they get unbiased service. But I'm a bit lost, too much stuff going on. Easily confused!
> 
> I got distracted by Boris's virility push up challenge and Starmer suggesting first to 50


This is how understand it.

The BLM organisation, BLM.inc want the police defunded and it's a global movement. The problem is there are ordinary folk who "Black Lives Matter" and then there's this activist group with all kinds of demands, whose leaders say they are trained Marxists and who are raising billions of dollars under the Black Lives Matter banner heading. They're who want the police gone, amongst other things.

Keir Starmer was clearly trying to separate the two, side with the ordinary folk and detach himself from any extremist narrative. A narrative Rebecca Long-Bailey has supported in the past and probably another reason she was sacked. Her saying the wrong thing gave him the excuse he needed. I wouldn't be surprised to see Starmer steer labour back towards the centre and try to make himself the next Tony Blair rather than a replacement Jeremy Corbyn.

The Black Lives Matter Inc group, who aren't a charity and whose fundraising is managed by something set up for the democrats apparently, are who I've been talking about muddying the water with an agenda and anyone trying to speak against them are accused of racism and worse. Starmer it seems has fallen into their trap. Oops.

British police aren't usually armed and don't tend to kill people though. Making out people live in fear here like they might in parts of the US is an insult really and I think belittles their cause. It's the American house that's on fire at the moment, setting ours alight and saying 'what about us' doesn't help them, to steal that analogy. I think that's what we've done. I heard a black american say that people who live in countries where the police aren't armed are privileged and lucky and should know it. I'll see if I can find him again.


----------



## MollySmith

Elles said:


> This is how understand it.
> 
> The BLM organisation, BLM.inc want the police defunded and it's a global movement. The problem is there are ordinary folk who "Black Lives Matter" and then there's this activist group with all kinds of demands, whose leaders say they are trained Marxists and who are raising billions of dollars under the Black Lives Matter banner heading. They're who want the police gone, amongst other things.
> 
> Keir Starmer was clearly trying to separate the two, side with the ordinary folk and detach himself from any extremist narrative. A narrative Rebecca Long-Bailey has supported in the past and probably another reason she was sacked. Her saying the wrong thing gave him the excuse he needed. I wouldn't be surprised to see Starmer steer labour back towards the centre and try to make himself the next Tony Blair rather than a replacement Jeremy Corbyn.
> 
> The Black Lives Matter Inc group, who aren't a charity and whose fundraising is managed by something set up for the democrats apparently, are who I've been talking about muddying the water with an agenda and anyone trying to speak against them are accused of racism and worse. Starmer it seems has fallen into their trap. Oops.
> 
> British police aren't usually armed and don't tend to kill people though. Making out people live in fear here like they might in parts of the US is an insult really and I think belittles their cause. It's the American house that's on fire at the moment, setting ours alight and saying 'what about us' doesn't help them, to steal that analogy. I think that's what we've done. I heard a black american say that people who live in countries where the police aren't armed are privileged and lucky and should know it. I'll see if I can find him again.


Thanks for the context.

I hear something very different from black community I've been speaking too. It was more about accountability for the police. I guess it's whom one (generally, not you specifically) speaks to, follows or whatever on social media as Black Lives Matter doesn't speak for everyone, no more than Boris can speak for every electorate.

I read a bit about Peake, Long Bailey and Starmer and it's very murky - as much to do with her unwise lack of response or accountability I think - and I guess the amount of feelings about semitism under Corbyn didn't leave a lot of room to do much else but I'm ill qualified to debate it. Likewise about BLM and UK police, like you, I'm white so it's very different for me, again based on the experiences of black friends.

There are so many elements to all this. It's so hard to keep up and to remain unbiased too!


----------



## O2.0

Not one day after Trump retweets the "***********" tweet that he supposedly didn't hear/see, whatever, he retweets a video of a lunatic lawyer couple standing in front of their house/mansion/castle abomination with an assault rifle and a gun. Waving the damn things around too. I know the US has this reputation for being a gun-toting free-for-all, but I promise you, this is extreme even for us, even for these times. 
And since I'd rather laugh than cry, this is one of the more hilarious takes on the whole thing 
https://news.avclub.com/meet-the-gu...ZQvf8EdgpJ28AeTZr72v1N6h-SaalM2CWZIpIxdvMD8Ms

But yeah, this was the video Trump retweeted. Without comment. I somehow don't think he was retweeting to ridicule them like the rest of the somewhat sane left among us...

And on a totally separate note but I'm too lazy to post a different post. 
John Legend succinctly and perfectly explains what I think several posters have tried to articulate. 









Perfectly put. 
Making a meaningless change to appear like you're doing something without really doing anything also conveniently distracts from the actual things that need to change. Even better if you can cause a social media firestorm about it further distracting from the real issues that need real change.


----------



## havoc

O2.0 said:


> Perfectly put.
> Making a meaningless change to appear like you're doing something without really doing anything also conveniently distracts from the actual things that need to change. Even better if you can cause a social media firestorm about it further distracting from the real issues that need real change


It is perfectly put, makes perfect sense and I can be confident in the message because of the source. Unfortunately there's a lot of meaningless change going on, much of it instigated by white people in some weird game of competitive 'wokeness' and delivered with the implied idea that if you even dare to ask questions then you're the problem and must be shut down.


----------



## MilleD

havoc said:


> It is perfectly put, makes perfect sense and I can be confident in the message because of the source. Unfortunately there's a lot of meaningless change going on, much of it instigated by white people in some weird game of competitive 'wokeness' and delivered with the implied idea that if you even dare to ask questions then you're the problem and must be shut down.


Is that why there seems to be nothing but black people on the TV right now? All the advertisers and broadcasters can't help themselves. Talk about swinging completely in the opposite direction.

It feels totally disingenuous and bandwagon jumping.

Sky feel like the biggest hypocrite.


----------



## O2.0

havoc said:


> some weird game of competitive 'wokeness' a


Virtue signaling. Wanting to appear like you support an get recognition for being supportive of that issue without actually doing anything concrete about it. And yes, it's a problem.

For one it very conveniently gets us to argue back and forth about non-issues like what to name the largest bedroom in a house, while conveniently avoiding the real issue - that very often black people aren't shown all the homes in their budget because the realtor consciously or unconsciously doesn't see them in that particular neighborhood. Or that black people don't get the same access to home loans as other demographics, or that politicians quite deliberately have divided neighborhoods up etc., etc., etc.

It also makes it much easier for those more resistant to change to ridicule and thus reject the essence of equality movements. Not an excuse BTW, we're all capable of looking past the hype and seeing the need for change, but if given an easy out, many will take it. Humans as a species abhor change and fight it at every step, even if it's for the better.


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> Is that why there seems to be nothing but black people on the TV right now? All the advertisers and broadcasters can't help themselves. Talk about swinging completely in the opposite direction.
> 
> It feels totally disingenuous and bandwagon jumping.
> 
> Sky feel like the biggest hypocrite.


To be fair , I had noticed there were more ads with Bame people before this happened tin the last year though not as many as now. There was a dire lack of ads with Bame people before and it is only fair they are represented.


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> To be fair , I had noticed there were more ads with Bame people before this happened tin the last year though not as many as now. There was a dire lack of ads with Bame people before and it is only fair they are represented.


There wasn't a dire lack though was there? There are loads of ads with ethnic minorities. Even if it's just for ad agency box ticking purposes, which in turn isn't the best reason.

Oh and https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53194376


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> There wasn't a dire lack though was there? There are loads of ads with ethnic minorities. Even if it's just for ad agency box ticking purposes, which in turn isn't the best reason.
> 
> Oh and https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53194376


Ok thats only my opinion .


----------



## Elles

We get some different ads in different areas too, but yeah, I agree, it’s got a bit cringeworthy. We get a ginger bearded white dad, a black mum, with an Eastern Asian kid, who have other diverse and trans friends all piling into a car and as we aren’t supposed to promote stereotypes, it won’t be long before the family dog is the one driving it. That’s why they show that the motorcyclist or welder in the ad is a woman and the one doing the washing up is the bloke. You gotta laugh really. 

On the rare occasion you get a 2.2 kids white family, they stick out like a sore thumb as not woke and it’s like uh oh they’re in trouble. I expect it’ll settle down eventually. No one particularly wants to be a token I would have thought. Diversity doesn’t mean taking the previous norm and painting it over, swapping in couple of racial, or lgbt stereotypes, to virtue signal for woke points. 

I was watching a couple of netflix programmes and I’m sorry America, looks like police reform was already a work in progress, but have you seen your prisons?  I sincerely hope there aren’t very many innocents in those hell holes, though of course Netflix want us to think so. I’m not really surprised that the activists want to do away with youth prisons and incarceration.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> I was watching a couple of netflix programmes and I'm sorry America, looks like police reform was already a work in progress, but have you seen your prisons?  I sincerely hope there aren't very many innocents in those hell holes, though of course Netflix want us to think so. I'm not really surprised that the activists want to do away with youth prisons and incarceration.


Have you watched '13th' on Netflix (on of their own documentaries)? I did the other day - it's about how the 13th amendment (the one banning slavery) excludes prisoners, and t's absolutely jaw-dropping.

I think the biggest shock for me (and there were many) is that the USA is home to 1 in 4 of all prisoners in the world, and that of all those _*97% have never had - and never will have - a trial*_ :Wideyed


----------



## MilleD

Jesthar said:


> Have you watched '13th' on Netflix (on of their own documentaries)? I did the other day - it's about how the 13th amendment (the one banning slavery) excludes prisoners, and t's absolutely jaw-dropping.
> 
> I think the biggest shock for me (and there were many) is that the USA is home to 1 in 4 of all prisoners in the world, and that of all those _*97% have never had - and never will have - a trial*_ :Wideyed


Is that because they have taken plea deals?


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> Is that because they have taken plea deals?


Yes. Most often because they have been told 'Confess to this crime you didn't do and you'll get three years. Go to trial, we'll make sure you get 20+..."


----------



## ForestWomble

Jesthar said:


> Yes. Most often because they have been told 'Confess to this crime you didn't do and you'll get three years. Go to trial, we'll make sure you get 20+..."


----------



## MilleD

Jesthar said:


> Yes. Most often because they have been told 'Confess to this crime you didn't do and you'll get three years. Go to trial, we'll make sure you get 20+..."


More for lower level crimes though surely?

Edit to add, I'm not saying it's right, but who is to say those people are innocent?

They might not be. They might be.

They obviously think that this is the best option. Although I can see how this could be unfair if pushed on certain minorities along with the threat of unfair treatment in the court system.


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> More for lower level crimes though surely?


Yes, but thanks to draconion minimum sentancing laws you caneasily get 20+ years for relatively minor crimes in the US - if you're poor. Meanwhile, rich people get away with big crimes because they can afford it. The whole system is out of whack...


----------



## MilleD

Jesthar said:


> Yes, but thanks to draconion minimum sentancing laws you caneasily get 20+ years for relatively minor crimes in the US - if you're poor. Meanwhile, rich people get away with big crimes because they can afford it. The whole system is out of whack...


Sorry, I added to my answer whilst you were replying.

How do you pay to get away with a crime?


----------



## O2.0

It's really worth watching 13 on Netflix to get a more comprehensive understanding of how our entire justice system was built, and how it continues to function.


----------



## Boxer123

O2.0 said:


> Virtue signaling. Wanting to appear like you support an get recognition for being supportive of that issue without actually doing anything concrete about it. And yes, it's a problem.
> 
> For one it very conveniently gets us to argue back and forth about non-issues like what to name the largest bedroom in a house, while conveniently avoiding the real issue - that very often black people aren't shown all the homes in their budget because the realtor consciously or unconsciously doesn't see them in that particular neighborhood. Or that black people don't get the same access to home loans as other demographics, or that politicians quite deliberately have divided neighborhoods up etc., etc., etc.
> 
> It also makes it much easier for those more resistant to change to ridicule and thus reject the essence of equality movements. Not an excuse BTW, we're all capable of looking past the hype and seeing the need for change, but if given an easy out, many will take it. Humans as a species abhor change and fight it at every step, even if it's for the better.


Well put, a few months ago it was #bekind because of Caroline flacks death a week later we are hoarding loo roll and pasta and have completely forgotten. I really hope this movement brings about real change. It's looking at what we can do as individuals.

My sister has been using her insta account (she has 265k followers I have 1) to signpost to books and links to help people further understand the BLM movement. She gave me The New Jim Crow to read last year as I was completely ignorant to the plight of so many people.

I think that education is key. Not posting and # tagging but reading and listening. You say it far better than me @O2.2.


----------



## O2.0

MilleD said:


> How do you pay to get away with a crime?


Have a good lawyer
Know a judge
Be white....


----------



## MilleD

O2.0 said:


> Have a good lawyer
> Know a judge
> Be white....


But that's not the system itself is it - that's corruption within the system surely?


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> But that's not the system itself is it - that's corruption within the system surely?


Nope, that's the system itself. There are elements of corruption, of course, but most of it is the system.


----------



## O2.0

MilleD said:


> But that's not the system itself is it - that's corruption within the system surely?


Both. But it's quite literally the system itself on many levels. Seriously, watch 13th, it's only an hour 40 minutes and it feels way shorter. It's enlightening. A lot of it is stuff we kind of knew, but put together in its entirely chronologically it's really eye opening.


----------



## MilleD

O2.0 said:


> Both. But it's quite literally the system itself on many levels. Seriously, watch 13th, it's only an hour 40 minutes and it feels way shorter. It's enlightening. A lot of it is stuff we kind of knew, but put together in its entirely chronologically it's really eye opening.


I would but I haven't got Netflix. If anyone knows anywhere else it's available I'll take a look


----------



## havoc

I wish I dared post up the link to Jonathon Pie on WOKE Utopia on here but I'd get banned for being both political and politically incorrect


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> There wasn't a dire lack though was there? There are loads of ads with ethnic minorities. Even if it's just for ad agency box ticking purposes, which in turn isn't the best reason.
> 
> Oh and https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53194376


Ive just realised that I don't get Sky or Netflix etc . I only have Freeview,

Yes read that before about Bame.( your link) I just find it easier to type Bame than longer words like ethnic minority.


----------



## Elles

I was just watching it (13th) coincidentally. However, I don’t watch programmes, or video with real violence and murder, so I switched it off.


----------



## rona

I hear that BAME is now a no go abbreviation 

Apparently it insults a few people


----------



## Elles

havoc said:


> I wish I dared post up the link to Jonathon Pie on WOKE Utopia on here but I'd get banned for being both political and politically incorrect


It's supposed to be satire, but when they say many a true word spoken in jest lol.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> I was just watching it (13th) coincidentally. However, I don't watch programmes, or video with real violence and murder, so I switched it off.


It's not easy viewing, to be sure. But worth it. And if you really can't take the reality of the visuals, it works almost as well with just the audio so you could just listen to it instead.


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> It's not easy viewing, to be sure. But worth it. And if you really can't take the reality of the visuals, it works almost as well with just the audio so you could just listen to it instead.


I don't want to listen to people being killed either. Fortunately I'm not in any position of power and I don't live in America, so I can't do anything about the American injustice system. I already watch programmes about it and can hardly believe what I'm seeing. I watched an educational video about 'Jim Crow' again lately, that brought up more than I already knew, but it's like reading a Stephen King novel in some ways, I'm detached from it, it's not me and it's not here. I can feel sad, but I can't change it.

I think stop talking about Jim Crow and slavery and talk about today. I don't agree that bringing up the past is educational and should be learned from, I think it gives excuses for folk who want to say it's not like that now and nothing much needs changing. Showing people the here and now and comparing it to what used to happen, makes today look not quite so bad doesn't it?


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> I don't want to listen to people being killed either. Fortunately I'm not in any position of power and I don't live in America, so I can't do anything about the American injustice system. I already watch programmes about it and can hardly believe what I'm seeing. I watched an educational video about 'Jim Crow' again lately, that brought up more than I already knew, but it's like reading a Stephen King novel in some ways, I'm detached from it, it's not me and it's not here. I can feel sad, but I can't change it.


I don't particular want to either, but I choose to do it because it is my responsibility to educate myself in these matters. I've had the priviledge of ignoring them most of my life, simply because I'm white and the innate and deep rooted prejudices of UK society don't apply to me (aside from those associated with being female). But I can't carry on that way, or stay quiet, otherwise I'm no better than those going around painting white supremacist symbols on peoples houses.

And we CAN change things. In fact, this is the kind of change that has to come from the grassroots, from the people. It's time we white people faced up to the fact that a long time ago we were spoonfed a massive lie about non-whites being inferior by the very people who derived their income from exploiting slaves, and that it is those long-ingrained attitudes that still persist today. They may not take the form of shackles and whips any more, but that's the nasty thing about oppression and prejudice - it's very easy for those with vested interests to guide and reshape such things into new forms when the old forms can no longer server their purpose.



Elles said:


> I think stop talking about Jim Crow and slavery and talk about today. I don't agree that bringing up the past is educational and should be learned from, I think it gives excuses for folk who want to say it's not like that now and nothing much needs changing. Showing people the here and now and comparing it to what used to happen, makes today look not quite so bad doesn't it?


I absolutely 100% disagree with you there. If we don't learn about the past, we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over again. I thought I was pretty well versed in the sordid history of the UK (and the USA) when it comes to non-whites, but in the last few weeks I've had to admit just how little I actually really know. And how little has actually really changed, and not simply shifted from one now unacceptable form of oppression to a more modern expression of the same prejudices. If anything, it makes today look even worse, as we've had so much time and made so little progress.


----------



## Elles

I can’t do anything about the American justice system, or what happened in the past. When you say “We CAN change things”, things I can change aren’t what I’m talking about. I actually would like there to have been more focus on Hong Kong in this country, rather than America. America can deal with its own problems imo, but the people we’ve abandoned to the Chinese government can’t. 

Some areas of the U.K. may be bad, I don’t know, I don’t live in one of them. I’m not entirely convinced that we’re going the right way about this.


----------



## StormyThai

O2.0 said:


> Both. But it's quite literally the system itself on many levels. Seriously, watch 13th, it's only an hour 40 minutes and it feels way shorter. It's enlightening. A lot of it is stuff we kind of knew, but put together in its entirely chronologically it's really eye opening.


Thank you for posting about 13th.
I've just finished watching it, and even though I knew about many of the cases discussed and the stats. Seeing it put in order and listening to the interviews (from both sides) is very eye opening.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> I can't do anything about the American justice system, or what happened in the past. When you say "We CAN change things", things I can change aren't what I'm talking about. I actually would like there to have been more focus on Hong Kong in this country, rather than America. America can deal with its own problems imo, but the people we've abandoned to the Chinese government can't.
> 
> Some areas of the U.K. may be bad, I don't know, I don't live in one of them. I'm not entirely convinced that we're going the right way about this.


Except we have the same fundamental problems as the US (though not as engrained into the justice system)... Just because you don't overtly see them in your area, doesn't mean they aren't there. It just means you, personally, don't experience them.


----------



## MollySmith

Elles said:


> I can't do anything about the American justice system, or what happened in the past. When you say "We CAN change things", things I can change aren't what I'm talking about. I actually would like there to have been more focus on Hong Kong in this country, rather than America. America can deal with its own problems imo, but the people we've abandoned to the Chinese government can't.
> 
> Some areas of the U.K. may be bad, I don't know, I don't live in one of them. I'm not entirely convinced that we're going the right way about this.


Even by being here or on social media you can change things  Simply by knowing enough to recognise the bias in yourself and in others and to say 'hang on'. And we all have a degree of bias, it's how we are taught. PF is worldwide, all social media is too, family, friends.

I find I watch very little on screen these days but you might find the book (see signature) I'm reading interesting as it's factual. Not overly graphic and full of useful guidance. Also try The History Chicks podcast if you listen to them and Civillia Morgan, a good friend of mine. She mostly talks about childlessness but she is producing a series of podcasts on what it's like to be a black woman in America. Episode 120 is really worth a listen.

https://childlessnotbychoice.net/category/podcast/


----------



## MollySmith

Jesthar said:


> I don't particular want to either, but I choose to do it because it is my responsibility to educate myself in these matters. I've had the priviledge of ignoring them most of my life, simply because I'm white and the innate and deep rooted prejudices of UK society don't apply to me (aside from those associated with being female). But I can't carry on that way, or stay quiet, otherwise I'm no better than those going around painting white supremacist symbols on peoples houses.
> 
> And we CAN change things. In fact, this is the kind of change that has to come from the grassroots, from the people. It's time we white people faced up to the fact that a long time ago we were spoonfed a massive lie about non-whites being inferior by the very people who derived their income from exploiting slaves, and that it is those long-ingrained attitudes that still persist today. They may not take the form of shackles and whips any more, but that's the nasty thing about oppression and prejudice - it's very easy for those with vested interests to guide and reshape such things into new forms when the old forms can no longer server their purpose.
> 
> I absolutely 100% disagree with you there. If we don't learn about the past, we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over again. I thought I was pretty well versed in the sordid history of the UK (and the USA) when it comes to non-whites, but in the last few weeks I've had to admit just how little I actually really know. And how little has actually really changed, and not simply shifted from one now unacceptable form of oppression to a more modern expression of the same prejudices. If anything, it makes today look even worse, as we've had so much time and made so little progress.


All this and more, so well put @Jesthar. It reminds me of some of @Pawscrossed posts about education ourselves. We don't have to, of course, but I think of the time we all spent here when we could pop on a podcast, pick up a book, read a book. Heaps of resources from Victoria Alexander here. https://twitter.com/victoriaalxndr?lang=en I think we've really run out of reasons why we shouldn't. If we can learn to bake a cake, we can learn a little humanity and make the most of our privilege

Less PF yikes! Sorry @StormyThai and mods!


----------



## Elles




----------



## O2.0

Elles said:


>


I watched the whole interview. If you'll watch that, why won't you watch 13th?

In other news, our wonderful leader has now deemed that Black Lives Matter is a symbol of hate. 
I actually wonder if he has figured out he won't get re-elected and has decided to blow the whole thing up before he leaves. Like an evicted tenant who decides to trash the whole place out of spite for being evicted.


----------



## Elles

O2.0 said:


> I watched the whole interview. If you'll watch that, why won't you watch 13th?


Because there are some things I don't need to see and it felt sensationalist.

We didn't need to see video of Lost Prophets or Gary Glitter committing their crimes, I don't need to see people beaten and murdered in full, glorious technicolour either. Some of you may be made of sterner stuff, I'm happy not to be tbh. That doesn't mean I turn away in real life, or ignore uncomfortable current affairs altogether.

BLM the incorporated organisation is very far left, so of course republicans won't support it. A number of high profile blacks are explaining why, though they of course support the sentiment "black lives matter", it's moved away from what it was about and become more about the organisation and a socialist, Marxist, political movement. I don't know how true that is, but it's bound to give Trump the opportunity to denounce it.


----------



## StormyThai

Elles said:


> I don't need to see people beaten and murdered in full, glorious technicolour either.


And you don't on 13th either...you hear peoples stories which include beatings and murders but what they show is no worse than the news. If fact much of it has already been on the news at one point or another.

Without seeing it you don't know if it is sensationalist...do you not see that you have formed a bias about something without even *knowing *what it's about?


----------



## Happy Paws2

I really think this has gone far enough in the press and on TV, we aren't stupid we know there is a lot wrong and has to be put right, but do we need to see and hear it single day. Now Mercedes F1 cars are going to be painted black, I think for this years season instead of silver I personally that's going over the top, let Lewis wear black if he wants but not change the house colour of their cars.

I do feel that they have been very badly treated but they aren't they only ones who have suffered slavery and treated as second class.


----------



## StormyThai

Happy Paws2 said:


> but do we need to see and hear it single day.


Until things change...like actually change and not just knee-jerk reactions and a few word changes...I believe we do need to hear what happened and what is still happening to this day.
Can I ask why painting a car black (which doesn't matter either way to be fair) is going over the top? Do you think the same when other teams decide to switch up their colours?


----------



## havoc

Happy Paws2 said:


> Now Mercedes F1 cars are going to be painted black, I think for this years season instead of silver I personally that's going over the top, let Lewis wear black if he wants but not change the house colour of their cars.


It's ridiculous and messing with the history of the sport. Racing countries were assigned colours for their cars, Italy red, Japan white, Britain green .... and Germany was silver. Painting a bloody car black isn't going to change anything.


----------



## Happy Paws2

StormyThai said:


> Until things change...like actually change and not just knee-jerk reactions and a few word changes...I believe we do need to hear what happened and what is still happening to this day.
> *Can I ask why painting a car black (which doesn't matter either way to be fair) is going over the top? Do you think the same when other teams decide to switch up their colours?*


Because Mercedes F1 cars are silver they are called The Silver Arrows, and it very rare for F1 cars to change colour.

I know we can't forget and things need to change and we mustn't forget, but I don't need to reminded about it everyday my memory isn't that bad.


----------



## StormyThai

Fair enough...But I will point out that Mercedes have changed their livery several times over history.
White with green stripe
Red
Orange
Back to white
Then Red and white
Silver and black in 1997
In fact chrome and grey didn't make an appearance until 2015 if I remember correctly.

I have just done a bit of research...the colour change has ZERO to do with BLM...in fact they aren't going black, they are going graphite grey and the reason for the change?

"The team said in a statement that the changes would reduce reflection issues caused by the chrome treatment and optimise the car's appearance both in bright sunshine and under the floodlights."


As usual the media are stirring up hate.


I was a huge F1 fan until recent times


----------



## Happy Paws2

StormyThai said:


> Fair enough...But I will point out that Mercedes have changed their livery several times over history.
> White with green stripe
> Red
> Orange
> Back to white
> Then Red and white
> Silver and black in 1997
> In fact chrome and grey didn't make an appearance until 2015 if I remember correctly.
> 
> I have just done a bit of research...the colour change has ZERO to do with BLM...in fact they aren't going black, they are going graphite grey and the reason for the change?
> 
> "The team said in a statement that the changes would reduce reflection issues caused by the chrome treatment and optimise the car's appearance both in bright sunshine and under the floodlights."
> 
> As usual the media are stirring up hate.
> 
> I was a huge F1 fan until recent times


OK fair enough I thought they had been silver longer than that.

Anyway looking forward to this weekends race.


----------



## Elles

StormyThai said:


> And you don't on 13th either...you hear peoples stories which include beatings and murders but what they show is no worse than the news. If fact much of it has already been on the news at one point or another.
> 
> Without seeing it you don't know if it is sensationalist...do you not see that you have formed a bias about something without even *knowing *what it's about?


I watched some of it. I don't watch it on the news either and I already said I haven't seen the video of George. I said it felt sensationalist (to me), not that it was. I was trying to explain why I didn't watch it (all), but could watch the video I linked, which I found very impactful.

Of course we all have bias and things we don't want to see. I signed a petition against porn hub without seeing what's on there, just by being told about it. Should I log on and watch a few videos before I make my mind up about calling for a ban, or serious controls over something billions of people enjoy? Or am I allowed to make my mind up without it?


----------



## Elles

A short one. Not entirely accurate, the USA still has the death penalty I believe, but I get her point.


----------



## O2.0

Elles said:


> I signed a petition against porn hub without seeing what's on there, just by being told about it. Should I log on and watch a few videos before I make my mind up about calling for a ban, or serious controls over something billions of people enjoy? Or am I allowed to make my mind up without it?


That's not the same thing. 
This started because you said you're not in America, you can't do anything about racism here. 
The point of 13th is to inform and educate. And by educating yourself you're doing something because in turn you can educate others and at least be more in-tune to inequalities so you can call them out when you see them.

Watching porn hub has no value as far as making any real changes. And, as you said, you signed a petition, so you did do something.

So in one case, you were motivated to do something just being given information. In another case, you've made up your mind you can't do anything despite any information offered to you.


----------



## Elles

O2.0 said:


> That's not the same thing.
> This started because you said you're not in America, you can't do anything about racism here.
> The point of 13th is to inform and educate. And by educating yourself you're doing something because in turn you can educate others and at least be more in-tune to inequalities so you can call them out when you see them.
> 
> Watching porn hub has no value as far as making any real changes. And, as you said, you signed a petition, so you did do something.
> 
> So in one case, you were motivated to do something just being given information. In another case, you've made up your mind you can't do anything despite any information offered to you.


Watching porn hub to get riled up about it, shocked and horrified, watching someone die to get riled up about it, shocked and horrified? I don't need to do either.

I can't do anything, nor should I. I don't live in America. America is big and brave and strong enough to sort itself out. People in the U.K. watch porn hub, our government can do something about it. If there was something I could do that I felt useful, I would, but I'm not convinced we are going the right way about it, or even that race is a major factor today, (particularly in this country) I think poverty (perceived class?) is.

I'm not donating money to a Marxist organisation, however well meaning, nor supporting their aim of defunding (our) police. So that means banging on to my horsey friends on Facebook, which is as much use as flogging the proverbial dead horse, because they can't do any more about it than I can and we don't want our (local) police defunded thank you.


----------



## O2.0

There is nothing in 13th about defunding the police, and nothing about donating to BLM, I don't think BLM even comes up much TBH. The documentary came out in 2016.
But yeah, also done flogging this poor horse.


----------



## Elles

Can I just point out that apart from telling me to watch a documentary on Netflix, no one here has given me any practical advice, or told me what they’re doing that I might be able to help with? Just some vague idea that I should be doing something. I maybe can do something by not being quiet if I see societal racism (or any other ism) in my local area, but tbh I’m lucky, I don’t live in an area where isms are much of a problem tbh and that wouldn’t be any different to what I’d already do. 

I can support specific victims of isms, like young Ellie Williams and other children who are victims of grooming and trafficking and pressure my MP over it. I don’t know any specific cases of racism to support.

I’m not saying the documentary does say I should donate money, I’m listing the things I’ve seen that we’ve been told to do generally. I’m talking practical here. Even if I don’t do whatever it is, others may be interested.


----------



## Elles

O2.0 said:


> There is nothing in 13th about defunding the police, and nothing about donating to BLM, I don't think BLM even comes up much TBH. The documentary came out in 2016.
> But yeah, also done flogging this poor horse.


Hmm, maybe I didn't see the right one. It had video after video scene of people getting beaten up by the police, then someone on the ground saying "I can't breathe" while a large policeman kneeled on him, I switched it straight off at that part.


----------



## O2.0

I think the best thing any of us can do is educate ourselves.
Listen.
Really listen. When a black person tells you their experiences, sit with it, don't immediately try to counter or come up with a similar experience of your own that negated the racism they describe (either in your head or out loud).
Open our eyes. So many of us don't see this racism that black and brown people talk about, not noticing it doesn't mean it isn't happening. Pay attention. When you do see it, say something.
But mostly it's our time to just shut up and listen.



Elles said:


> Hmm, maybe I didn't see the right one. It had video after video scene of people getting beaten up by the police, then someone on the ground saying "I can't breathe" while a large policeman kneeled on him, I switched it straight off at that part.


13th starts with Barack Obama speaking and a graphic of the map of the US. There is nothing about George Floyd in 13th because it hadn't happened yet.
There is footage at the very end that you might want to skip, but you can listen to the narrative.


----------



## StormyThai

Unfortunately George Floyd wasn't the first to be killed by being put on his front, cuffed and then sat on...the incident you are referring too is Eric Garner who was killed in New York but there where others before him.

I know that many will disagree but racism is just as rife in the UK...our police aren't routinely weaponized so you don't have the number of deaths, but speak to those that have had experience and you will see that we have a long way to go.

Slavery still exists, it is just under a new name now!


----------



## mrs phas

StormyThai said:


> Slavery still exists, it is just under a new name now!


Sex trafficking and the use of child labour/sweatshops

One has to educate oneself about the modern slaves as well as historical ones
Here's an example of a few brands, proven to be involved in

https://www.society19.com/uk/brands-that-use-sweatshops-to-create-clothing/

And some truths about sex trafficking

https://www.unseenuk.org/modern-slavery/human-trafficking

Also, in case anyone doesn't think it happens to good white UK girls
The statistics show that, the percentage of UK girls, being sex trafficked, rose from 21% in 2016-17 to 29% in 2018-19


----------



## Elles

mrs phas said:


> Sex trafficking and the use of child labour/sweatshops
> 
> One has to educate oneself about the modern slaves as well as historical ones
> Here's an example of a few brands, proven to be involved in
> 
> https://www.society19.com/uk/brands-that-use-sweatshops-to-create-clothing/
> 
> And some truths about sex trafficking
> 
> https://www.unseenuk.org/modern-slavery/human-trafficking
> 
> Also, in case anyone doesn't think it happens to good white UK girls
> The statistics show that, the percentage of UK girls, being sex trafficked, rose from 21% in 2016-17 to 29% in 2018-19


Nordic Model Now.

The police often treat young girls who are groomed, or trafficked into prostitution as perpetrators of crime, rather than the victims they are.  I already mentioned Ellie Williams as one example.

However that isn't really what's being addressed at the moment. This is about racism, not prostitution and trafficking.

Stores that use kids to make clothing was a big thing a few years back, when everyone was protesting and saying they wouldn't buy from them. Same as animal experiments. These big corporations wait until Joanna Public has moved on to the next cause and go back to normal, :Rage


----------



## mrs phas

Aaah the fickle Joe and Joanna public
So fond of jumping on the next new bandwagon

Btw, I'm with you
I haven't watched the Floyd death video either
It was enough to know that yet another black man had been held down and put into a chokehold, whilst police officer/s knelt on his back to, as I've posted before, send me right back to the Eric Garner video
And, realise that,
Nothing had changed in 6 years


----------



## StormyThai

mrs phas said:


> Sex trafficking and the use of child labour/sweatshops
> 
> One has to educate oneself about the modern slaves as well as historical ones
> Here's an example of a few brands, proven to be involved in


I'm well aware...but that is not what I was referring to. Sex trafficking and sweatshops need to be stopped, but it's not comparable to what I was talking about.

One can disagree with and fight against both


----------



## kimthecat

StormyThai said:


> I'm well aware...but that is not what I was referring to. Sex trafficking and sweatshops need to be stopped, but it's not comparable to what I was talking about.


Can you expand on that I dont get your meaning, "Slavery still exists, it is just under a new name now! "What did you mean? Sorry , my brain doesnt function as well as it used to.


----------



## StormyThai

kimthecat said:


> Can you expand on that I dont get your meaning, "Slavery still exists, it is just under a new name now! "What did you mean? Sorry , my brain doesnt function as well as it used to.


I honestly can't explain it as well as 13th does, but basically I'm referencing mass imprisonment and work release programs, including sweatshops and the like.


----------



## Elles

Incarceration for social, or mental health issues is a kind of slavery. We accept that disadvantaged young girls are groomed into sexual slavery, maybe we need to accept that young men are groomed in the same way into criminality. I don’t think we can go to an extreme and say it’s their fault and they deserve it. It’s a social issue that needs preventative measures. There will always be bad people, we need to be sure we aren’t making bad people out of good people and everyone gets the chance to be the best they can be. Equality of opportunity maybe is harder to find in some areas.


----------



## O2.0

Elles said:


> maybe we need to accept that young men are groomed in the same way into criminality.


Except we're incarcerating black men who aren't criminals, didn't commit a crime, and weren't going to. 
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, 13th explains it well. It seems incredible that in the US of A there are people in jail who have not committed any crime and they've been incarcerated legally, but it's true. And rampant.


----------



## Elles

O2.0 said:


> Except we're incarcerating black men who aren't criminals, didn't commit a crime, and weren't going to.
> At the risk of sounding like a broken record, 13th explains it well. It seems incredible that in the US of A there are people in jail who have not committed any crime and they've been incarcerated legally, but it's true. And rampant.


Yeah I know. I mentioned it earlier. As I don't live in the US I tried to be unbiased and not accusatory. I've seen a ton of programmes about American prisons. Scary stuff. Separate issue though.


----------



## kimthecat

StormyThai said:


> I honestly can't explain it as well as 13th does, but basically I'm referencing mass imprisonment and work release programs, including sweatshops and the like.


Oh I see. I dont have access to that programme so I cant compare but perhaps we shouldnt compare. Sex trafficking , the suffering of those girls forced to be prostitutes and perhaps boys is horrendous as is being falsely imprisoned.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I've just watched 12 Years a Slave and as much as it brought tears to my eyes at the cruelty of slavery, I still feel it has nothing with us in this day and age, what the people did in the 1800's in the Southern States of America. I will not be brow beaten into feeling guilty for something that happen so long ago. 

I know some of you will not agree with me but we can't put everything right. Do they really think that protests, rioting pulling down statues is going to change anything. I know BLM but there are people of other colours over the centuries who have suffered the same fate just look at Rome and what they did do half for Europe. So we need to learn from the past, not keep dragging it around trying to make anyone who isn't Black feel that's it's there fault, because it's not.

Sorry, I just had to say how I feel, no offence intended.


----------



## mrs phas

Statistics on black prisoners, in the US, are appalling and, tbh, they're not much better here, we're just smaller
But
I wonder how many, of all ethnicities, are in prison due to with diagnosed MH conditions, but unable to afford the medication,
or,
undiagnosed MH conditions
Including children (under 18s) incarcerated under the Baker act in Florida

I watched a shocking programme, online, about type 1 diabetics, in the US, who simply cannot afford life sustaining (and saving) insulin, even with insurance, and, the fact that many are travelling to Mexico, where it is available for around ⅒ the price
This prompted the above question


----------



## rona

...........................


----------



## StormyThai

kimthecat said:


> Oh I see. I dont have access to that programme so I cant compare but perhaps we shouldnt compare. Sex trafficking , the suffering of those girls forced to be prostitutes and perhaps boys is horrendous as is being falsely imprisoned.


As I said in my previous post, the two issues aren't comparable and no offense (to anyone) but it felt a bit "Yeah but" because whilst a horrendous crime it's not what we were discussing


----------



## MollySmith

Elles said:


> Can I just point out that apart from telling me to watch a documentary on Netflix, no one here has given me any practical advice, or told me what they're doing that I might be able to help with? Just some vague idea that I should be doing something. I maybe can do something by not being quiet if I see societal racism (or any other ism) in my local area, but tbh I'm lucky, I don't live in an area where isms are much of a problem tbh and that wouldn't be any different to what I'd already do.
> 
> I can support specific victims of isms, like young Ellie Williams and other children who are victims of grooming and trafficking and pressure my MP over it. I don't know any specific cases of racism to support.
> 
> I'm not saying the documentary does say I should donate money, I'm listing the things I've seen that we've been told to do generally. I'm talking practical here. Even if I don't do whatever it is, others may be interested.


I've suggested books. The best I can say is education because then you have the knowledge to make choices, as opposed to feeling - understandably so - that you must watch a film when it's not right for you.

I think I shared this .... not sure, I forget.


----------



## mrs phas

What a prat !
This is the kind of input no one needs

BBC News - David Starkey criticised over slavery comments
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-53262668


----------



## MollySmith

Back to Cummings briefly - this is being broadcast at Barnard Castle
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...s-latest-video-on-to-barnard-castle-1-6727895


----------



## Elles

mrs phas said:


> What a prat !
> This is the kind of input no one needs
> 
> BBC News - David Starkey criticised over slavery comments
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-53262668


oh dear. I have now watched the part of this interview that led up to this. I think I understand what he was saying. (How inconvenient for the argument on the left that) so many damned blacks survived. He's paraphrasing the left, damned blacks isn't his descriptive, but what he thinks the left feel about it. He'll not survive this and I'm not sure Darren will either.

Taken in context it's a dangerous thing to say, taken out of context it's a no brainer. It's quite a nasty thing to think and say about people on the left of politics and those in BLM even if they are Marxists. He's suggesting that they'd be happy if more people had died to support their narrative and that the truth is inconvenient for them.

People will get hung up on what they think is a racist aspect of calling blacks 'damned blacks', when that's actually not what it is. Imo.

My analysis could of course be wrong, but that's what I'm picking up from watching him, with the expression and the lead to what he's saying.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Elles said:


> *Can I just point out that apart from telling me to watch a documentary on Netflix, no one here has given me any practical advice, or told me what they're doing that I might be able to help with?* Just some vague idea that I should be doing something. I maybe can do something by not being quiet if I see societal racism (or any other ism) in my local area, but tbh I'm lucky, I don't live in an area where isms are much of a problem tbh and that wouldn't be any different to what I'd already do.
> 
> I can support specific victims of isms, like young Ellie Williams and other children who are victims of grooming and trafficking and pressure my MP over it. I don't know any specific cases of racism to support.
> 
> I'm not saying the documentary does say I should donate money, I'm listing the things I've seen that we've been told to do generally. I'm talking practical here. Even if I don't do whatever it is, others may be interested.


I am sorry to read this. I thought that the posts I had made were useful as they had the added input of my other half with some actions. @O2.0, @Jesthar and @MollySmith have also shared what they are doing. If not Netflix, what media do you prefer or something else?


----------



## Pawscrossed

MollySmith said:


> I've suggested books. The best I can say is education because then you have the knowledge to make choices, as opposed to feeling - understandably so - that you must watch a film when it's not right for you.
> 
> I think I shared this .... not sure, I forget.


I have seen this list too. Victoria is a very good.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Thirteen minutes, Matthew McConaughey and Emmanuel Acho. Nothing violent, just good honest conversation.


----------



## O2.0

Pawscrossed said:


> Thirteen minutes, Matthew McConaughey and Emmanuel Acho. Nothing violent, just good honest conversation.


I've watched a couple of Emmanuel Acho's videos, very well done


----------



## kimthecat

@MollySmith You posted a link to a download from Amazon in this link not long ago and asked us to read it, I checked it out and then for got to download it . Is it possible you could find it and repost the link here ,

How things change . The eighties , we;re all the same , we dont see colour ,we dont say black or Asian which is now considered racist . I wonder in 20 or 30 years time if the future generations will consider the current views as racist ?

Apart from changing peoples attitudes , are the race and hate laws good enough ? is there anyway they can be improved?

Finally , I dont mean to upset or hurt anyone , but I feel I must say it. The BLM is very important and I understand the bit where they say Its not about you to white people . Saying All lives matter detracts from their cause But , there are other ethnic minorities and religions , they are just as important to me , so I'm not going to stop saying All lives matter because they do matter .

Edited as i got mollys name wrong.


----------



## Elles

Pawscrossed said:


> Thirteen minutes, Matthew McConaughey and Emmanuel Acho. Nothing violent, just good honest conversation.


Interesting that he believes that white women may be frightened of him because he's black. 1 in 4 females will have been sexually abused by the age of 16 I think the statistics are? Correct me if I'm wrong. Women may be nervous because of this statistic and because he's a large, intimidating male. If he were a 5'4" female, of any race, he wouldn't be so threatening. A white male of his stature would probably have the same effect, especially on survivors who may be particularly aware. As a survivor myself, I'm wary of being alone with strange males. It's good that he's considerate, but I think we need to talk and stop assuming on both sides. 

Making (white) women feel guilty if there is a male in their space who makes them feel uncomfortable is a safeguarding issue imo.

I was also wondering why people who feel victimised want others to feel uncomfortable, guilty, sad, responsible etc.? There are many analyses of what's happening today and how to fix it and some of them are more optimistic and encouraging than others.


----------



## O2.0

Elles said:


> A white male of his stature would probably have the same effect,


And these are the questions/challenges we need to make to ourselves. 
If you find a man like him intimidating, challenge yourself to see if you would find white, or asian, or latino man of the same proportions intimidating. There is no right or wrong answer, just an awareness of our own biases, which we all have. Simply being aware of where we as individuals are coming from and being honest with ourselves about our feelings, without judgement is a step in the right direction.

Interestingly, I find men like Emmanuel quite attractive actually. His mannerisms, accent, way of dressing, haircut, I find it all soothing and appealing.
Meanwhile McConaughey gives me a 'greasy' vibe, I've never liked his accent, and his hand gestures were irritating me. Knowing this, I also know I'm more likely to take issue with something McCaonaughey says and more likely to accept things Emmanuel says. Knowing this I can anticipate my bias and check myself. It's not about feeling guilty about liking one over the other, but about being honest with myself about my biases.

I think it's kind and compassionate of him to try to make himself less intimidating to women if he notices their discomfort. I didn't read that at all as him trying to make women feel guilty for being intimidated by him, but a general sadness that for whatever reason people do feel this way. And it is true, that many women will be more afraid of a black man than a man of any other race.


----------



## Elles

O2.0 said:


> And these are the questions/challenges we need to make to ourselves.
> If you find a man like him intimidating, challenge yourself to see if you would find white, or asian, or latino man of the same proportions intimidating. There is no right or wrong answer, just an awareness of our own biases, which we all have. Simply being aware of where we as individuals are coming from and being honest with ourselves about our feelings, without judgement is a step in the right direction.
> 
> Interestingly, I find men like Emmanuel quite attractive actually. His mannerisms, accent, way of dressing, haircut, I find it all soothing and appealing.
> Meanwhile McConaughey gives me a 'greasy' vibe, I've never liked his accent, and his hand gestures were irritating me. Knowing this, I also know I'm more likely to take issue with something McCaonaughey says and more likely to accept things Emmanuel says. Knowing this I can anticipate my bias and check myself. It's not about feeling guilty about liking one over the other, but about being honest with myself about my biases.
> 
> I think it's kind and compassionate of him to try to make himself less intimidating to women if he notices their discomfort. I didn't read that at all as him trying to make women feel guilty for being intimidated by him, but a general sadness that for whatever reason people do feel this way. And it is true, that many women will be more afraid of a black man than a man of any other race.


I said I find all men intimidating and don't like to be alone.



Elles said:


> As a survivor myself, I'm wary of being alone with strange males.


Do you think by 'strange males' I meant black? I don't think he personally is trying to make women feel guilty, it's very strange to me how you interpret my posts. Just as he is trying to make himself less intimidating, because he thinks women might be scared of him because he's black, in the current climate I'm concerned that women may allow men to be closer than they feel comfortable, for fear of being accused of racism, or doing the wrong thing. Feeling guilty. Transphobia is another accusation that may lead to women trying to overcome a discomfort in the proximity of males they perceive as a potential threat, when they are vulnerable.

Do you feel more threatened by black men than other races? Do you feel threatened by men at all?


----------



## O2.0

Elles said:


> Do you think by 'strange males' I meant black?


No. I was just responding to your post with my own related thoughts. Just a conversation 



Elles said:


> Do you feel more threatened by black men than other races? Do you feel threatened by men at all?


Sometimes I do feel threatened by men, yes. But not often. I sometimes feel threatened by women too. But I am an individual, as are you. We all have our stories that cloud our perceptions.
I was abused growing up and my own way of coping was to become a hard-ass who's not going to let anyone get to me. Obviously that's not very healthy either so after years of therapy I'm a little less of a hard-ass, but I still don't intimidate easily. 
I tend to see young black men as 'kids' because my work involves teenagers and I work in a demographic where 49% of the population is black. I'm mostly a mama figure to these boys, and have been here over 20 years so it's not unusual for me to run in to young men who may look a lot like Mr. Acho and have them bear hug me and call me 'Mama ___' and tell me how they're doing.
OTOH because of the community I live in, if I'm going to find a man intimidating, it's often an older white man, to stereotype, of the red-neck type. I don't have a good track record there, and thus I have a bias there. I try to be aware of it and not let it cloud my judgement. I don't always succeed. Which is probably why Mathew McCaunaghey's accent and demeanor bugs me.

And to be honest, a lot of my posts on here are clouded by my own experiences and biases. Like I said, I've spent over 2 decades working with disenfranchised children, many of them black. I feel very protective of them, not just the children, but the now adults they have become.
I have zero personal experience with white British women and so therefore don't have a whole lot of connection there. Which is just another example of how our experiences really cloud how we perceive things.


----------



## Jaf

I grew up in an area of England where white people were the minority. It was mostly Indian, Pakistani and Jamaican in my school. I don’t think I noticed until I was a teenager! 

With my friends I got to learn a bit about their lives. It felt to me that religion was the main difference and I don’t know that can ever be overcome. Fundamentalism is a big problem.


----------



## Elles

I see “all countries matter” is now trending on twitter as a dig at “all lives matter”. 

I also see that as people are told they can’t celebrate 4th July due to covid, many are taking it as a serious sentiment and that it means cancel the 4 th July.  Oops.


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> @MollySmith You posted a link to a download from Amazon in this link not long ago and asked us to read it, I checked it out and then for got to download it . Is it possible you could find it and repost the link here ,
> 
> How things change . The eighties , we;re all the same , we dont see colour ,we dont say black or Asian which is now considered racist . I wonder in 20 or 30 years time if the future generations will consider the current views as racist ?
> 
> Apart from changing peoples attitudes , are the race and hate laws good enough ? is there anyway they can be improved?
> 
> Finally , I dont mean to upset or hurt anyone , but I feel I must say it. The BLM is very important and I understand the bit where they say Its not about you to white people . Saying All lives matter detracts from their cause But , there are other ethnic minorities and religions , they are just as important to me , so I'm not going to stop saying All lives matter because they do matter .
> 
> Edited as i got mollys name wrong.


oh I'll have a look as I can't remember off the top of my head... was it this - it's a brilliant book. 
https://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Be-Antiracist-Ibram-Kendi/dp/152911182X/ref=tmm_pap_title_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=
P.s. thanks - I thought was on everyone's ignore list!


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> oh I'll have a look as I can't remember off the top of my head... was it this - it's a brilliant book.
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Be-Ant...X/ref=tmm_pap_title_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=
> P.s. thanks - I thought was on everyone's ignore list!


i think it was that one. I read inside the book and it looks not to hard a read . I dont seem to be a able to concentrate for long. I'll just check I haven't already down loaded it. 
Im sure you're not on anyones ignore list.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> I see "all countries matter" is now trending on twitter as a dig at "all lives matter".
> 
> I also see that as people are told they can't celebrate 4th July due to covid, many are taking it as a serious sentiment and that it means cancel the 4 th July.  Oops.


I checked that out. I got the impression that it was in response to the USA July 4 th Celebrations. I didnt read all the tweets but many people were putting up photos of their country which was lovely to see . I dont get the criticism of the US for celebrating Independence day . Surely individual country should be allowed to celebrate their own things that apply to them.


----------



## kimthecat

Jaf said:


> I grew up in an area of England where white people were the minority. It was mostly Indian, Pakistani and Jamaican in my school. I don't think I noticed until I was a teenager!
> 
> With my friends I got to learn a bit about their lives. It felt to me that religion was the main difference and I don't know that can ever be overcome. Fundamentalism is a big problem.


This was a white area when I was young but began to change in the early 70s . We have different religions here , Im for religion , I think it can be a good thing and Im happy to go to most religious ceremonies if invited. I dont like to see the oppression of women and young girls . That is my bug bear.


----------



## mrs phas

MollySmith said:


> P.s. thanks - I thought was on everyone's ignore list!


Oh no you're not!


----------



## MollySmith

mrs phas said:


> Oh no you're not!


bless you, I think I'm just ducking out for a bit! Thanks too @kimthecat


----------



## kimthecat

An interesting point of view


Ayishat Akanbi
@Ayishat_Akanbi
Never until anti-racism became mainstream have I experienced so many white people so eager to tell me which ways I am oppressed, and how they will always be innately more "privileged" and powerful than me.


----------



## kimthecat

Keir Starmer to take Unconscious Bias training

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...lack-lives-matter_uk_5f02e8f0c5b6acab2852ecbe

There are courses that employees can take etc , I find that a bit worrying . it sounds like China.


----------



## MilleD

The UK BLM movement haven't been helping their cause recently have they?

Backlash has already started in the sports world - some F1 drivers in particular.


----------



## StormyThai

Depends what daily rag you read tbh.
There is no backlash among the drivers (well no more than usual competitiveness)...some people took the knee, others didn't (which is fine of course, especially after hearing their individual reasons) and that was all that happened.

Unless something else kicked off that I didn't see/know about?


----------



## MilleD

StormyThai said:


> Depends what daily rag you read tbh.
> There is no backlash among the drivers (well no more than usual competitiveness)...some people took the knee, others didn't (which is fine of course, especially after hearing their individual reasons) and that was all that happened.
> 
> Unless something else kicked off that I didn't see/know about?


Certain people are distancing themselves from the BLM in the uk as some of their recent Tweets regarding the Isreal/Palestine conflict and defunding the police are seen as nothing to do with the initial push of the BLM movement.

I wonder why only Hamilton wore a BLM t -shirt?


----------



## StormyThai

MilleD said:


> Certain people are distancing themselves from the BLM in the uk as some of their recent Tweets regarding the Isreal/Palestine conflict and defunding the police are seen as nothing to do with the initial push of the BLM movement.
> 
> I wonder why only Hamilton wore a BLM t -shirt?


I see... the usual bluster then.

Not sure why Hamilton was the only one to wear a BLM T-shirt, but as others wore an End racism my guess is that some didn't want to be accused of jumping on the bandwagon but wanted to show their support in another way. 
I liked that Leclerc announced before the race the reasons that he would not take the knee...
Only the drivers can tell us the real reasons.

As usual the small amount of loud, over the top idiots will detract from the point


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> we dont say black or Asian


 God knows . . it's all a bit confusing. Now, what I thought was that yes, you/we can, for some reason, say black; but we can't say 'coloured', and although we can't say 'coloured', it's OK to say ''a woman OF COLOUR'' (meaning a black woman).


----------



## O2.0

Actually, you *can* say whatever you want. 
Asking the person you're talking about what they prefer is also an option  

I say black because most of the black people I know prefer that. If I'm with a black person who prefers something else, I have no problem adjusting in that context. Especially here in the US, a black person may be Latino, and might identify more as Latino/a than black. 

I do find Asian confusing as it seems to mean something different in the UK and US. In the US we would refer to someone from China or Vietnam as Asian but someone from Bangladesh or India as Indian, even white sometimes. And for census purposes, people from the Middle East are considered caucasian. Or maybe that has changed, I'm not sure. 
But again, asking the person/group in question what they prefer is always an option.


----------



## kimthecat

O2.0 said:


> Actually, you *can* say whatever you want.
> Asking the person you're talking about what they prefer is also an option


I think @Calvine meant in general , not any particular person. If you say the wrong thing on social media then you get hell for it.
Isnt asking someone what they prefer a bit like Where you from? Id rather wait and see how people refer to themselves.



> I say black because most of the black people I know prefer that. If I'm with a black person who prefers something else, I have no problem adjusting in that context. Especially here in the US, a black person may be Latino, and might identify more as Latino/a than black.
> 
> I do find Asian confusing as it seems to mean something different in the UK and US. In the US we would refer to someone from China or Vietnam as Asian but someone from Bangladesh or India as Indian, even white sometimes. And for census purposes, people from the Middle East are considered caucasian. Or maybe that has changed, I'm not sure.
> But again, asking the person/group in question what they prefer is always an option.


Asian in the UK does seem to be a very broad term , it seems to cover anyone with forefathers from any country in Asia. I think Pakistanis would be very upset to be referred to as Indians and vice versa. I know India is now called a sub continent but since their Independance and divided territories I think people prefer to say Asian .

When we were at school in the early 1970s , we studied Social Science and we were taught that there were three races , Caucasian , ******* and Mongolian . This dated from the 50s based on features and is now considered out of date. Indians and Pakistanis etc came under the band of Caucasian.
I wish I'd kept my old school books , Ive forgotten so much and so much has changed.


----------



## mrs phas

StormyThai said:


> Depends what daily rag you read tbh.
> There is no backlash among the drivers (well no more than usual competitiveness)...some people took the knee, others didn't (which is fine of course, especially after hearing their individual reasons) and that was all that happened.
> 
> Unless something else kicked off that I didn't see/know about?


Tbh I don't see why anyone who doesn't 'take a knee' or wear a badge should have to give their reasons for not doing so.
Have we all become so brainwashed and scared, that privacy and choice are now 'out the window',
and
we have to mount a defence for freedom of choice, before choosing even that, fundamental, choice? So fundamental a choice that it's engrained and protected in law (freedom of speech comes into freedom of choice, after all) in most countries
I know I'm not racist,
I know I do not support racism on any level, including calling out, or, defriending people (and finishing relationships)
But
I damn sure, also, know, that
I do not have to explain anything to anyone, unless I break the law
And
I know that,
Im getting damned tired of, some, demanding to know things, that are irrelevant to their lives and going about their business,
And then
Calling out those who want privacy, respect and choice, as being anti whichever the bandwagon is, that those 'someones' have jumped on
Remember
James 2:20

Or the newer saying (which I love, and is not aimed at anyone here, just used as a more modern way of putting James 2:20 across, in these modern times)
Better to keep ones mouth shut
And be thought stupid
Than open it
And prove people right


----------



## Happy Paws2

mrs phas said:


> Tbh I don't see why anyone who doesn't 'take a knee' or wear a badge should have to give their reasons for not doing so.


The other week a West Bromwich Albion player was dropped from the team because he wouldn't take the knee.


----------



## mrs phas

Happy Paws2 said:


> The other week a West Bromwich Albion player was dropped from the team because he wouldn't take the knee.


Totally wrong, it should be his choice and his choice alone, no outside influence should be applied

Let's face it
a few years back Colin Kaepernick sat, and then later 'took a knee', for the US national anthem, and was accused of being unamerican, and, basically that was his career killing moment
Now, if you don't, you're a racist or supporter of racism
And THAT
Will be your career killing moment
No matter how much you did before, you become tainted for life

Freedom of choice and free speech matters too
Without either, no man (or any other gender one wishes to affiliate with) of any race, creed or colour, has any freedom at all
Which, after all, 
the suppression of both, is what HongKong chinese have been revolting demonstrating and protesting about, 
and
are now being offerred UK residency because of


----------



## Cleo38

mrs phas said:


> Tbh I don't see why anyone who doesn't 'take a knee' or wear a badge should have to give their reasons for not doing so.
> Have we all become so brainwashed and scared, that privacy and choice are now 'out the window',
> and
> we have to mount a defence for freedom of choice, before choosing even that, fundamental, choice? So fundamental a choice that it's engrained and protected in law (freedom of speech comes into freedom of choice, after all) in most countries
> I know I'm not racist,
> I know I do not support racism on any level, including calling out, or, defriending people (and finishing relationships)
> But
> I damn sure, also, know, that
> I do not have to explain anything to anyone, unless I break the law
> And
> I know that,
> Im getting damned tired of, some, demanding to know things, that are irrelevant to their lives and going about their business,
> And then
> Calling out those who want privacy, respect and choice, as being anti thewthe bandwagon is, that those 'someones' have jumped on
> Remember
> James 2:20
> 
> Or the newer saying (which I love, and is not aimed at anyone here, just used as a more modern way of putting James 2:20 across, in these modern times)
> Better to keep ones mouth shut
> And be thought stupid
> Than open it
> And prove people right


Unfortunately the current climate seems to be that if you don't agree with someone then you are against them & must be shouted down. It is scary just how much freedom of speech seems to be stifled when discussing certain topics & the aggression of those who disagree with others is taken to new levels on social media. It was interesting to read this story today regarding concerns over this ….. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53330105

The 'shaming' of people for doing or not doing something also seems to be a 'thing' now. On my village FB page there were people shaming their neighbours for not clapping the NHS, for seeming to have visitors during, lockdown, etc then same sort of thing that probably went on in many places. I am regularly 'shamed' by the poppy police at certain times of the years for failing to display my poppy. There are many reasons I may not be wearing one (usually I have lost one, or it's broken or on my other coats, etc) but I have been asked to explain myself by complete strangers who are told it's none of their business.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> The other week a West Bromwich Albion player was dropped from the team because he wouldn't take the knee.


Oh dear.  Ive photos of people standing with their arm behind their back and their other hand on their heart to mean BLM rather than kneel . I would do that rather than kneel.

@Cleo38 Its frightening how much the minority can control the majority.

Actors being shamed to give up acting parts because the character is gay or transsexual and they are not.


----------



## Cleo38

kimthecat said:


> Oh dear.  Ive photos of people standing with their arm behind their back and their other hand on their heart to mean BLM rather than kneel . I would do that rather than kneel.
> 
> @Cleo38 Its frightening how much the minority can control the majority.
> 
> Actors being shamed to give up acting parts because the character is gay or transsexual and they are not.


Whilst I agree that many groups of people should be represented in film/TV/theatre, etc & we should be more inclusive but some demands that only certain people are 'allowed' to play certain roles sort of misses the point of acting!


----------



## MollySmith

Happy Paws2 said:


> The other week a West Bromwich Albion player was dropped from the team because he wouldn't take the knee.


who was that? I've been listening to all the football and missed that. I know they had to release a statement over a fan who ridiculed the team for taking the knee.


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> Actors being shamed to give up acting parts because the character is gay or transsexual and they are not.


I am probably misunderstanding but isn't it also that it's also about approaching actors who are gay or trans for the part first, or disabled actors for appropriate parts. Not shame, but also being mindful of equality in the casting.


----------



## Happy Paws2

MollySmith said:


> who was that? I've been listening to all the football and missed that. I know they had to release a statement over a fan who ridiculed the team for taking the knee.


To be honest I don't remember now, all I know they dropped him from the starting line up and played him as a sub.


----------



## O2.0

kimthecat said:


> If you say the wrong thing on social media then you get hell for it.


To me that's one of those non-issues I posted about earlier in the thread. 
There's a difference between "I'm scared to refer to any racial minority for fear of getting backlash on social media" and "If I make a mistake please tell me because I'm trying to be teachable and I know I still have a lot to learn."
The latter opens the conversation up, you can ask why this term or that term, and learn more about a culture you may not be familiar with. 
Like why someone who's Puerto Rican might make a point of clarifying that along with being Black. Because being a Black person from Detroit is a very different vibe than being a Black person from Puerto Rico. Though both are technically also "American." 
BTW, even American is an intersting label. When people say American, often it means from the USA, yet there are multiple other countries in the Americas. 


kimthecat said:


> Isnt asking someone what they prefer a bit like Where you from? Id rather wait and see how people refer to themselves.


As above, I think if you come from a place of willingness to learn, the vast majority of people are very happy to have a conversation about it. Social Media makes it feel like everyone is constantly offended about terminolity, but in real life, across multiple cultures and languages, I've never found it to be an issue.


----------



## Elles

It is worrying that people are being sacked for saying the ‘wrong’ thing on social media, or in interviews, or having said the ‘wrong’ thing 20 years ago.  

I’m uncomfortable with others trying to police my language and saying I have to educate myself and learn. How about they ask me what I mean, instead of my pussy footing around, treading on eggshells so I don’t offend someone. 

My neighbour’s 10 year old was told by his teacher that he wasn’t a boy and mustn’t say it, because it’s not inclusive. He was really upset about it, saying to his dad “I am a boy!” They’re doing away with boy, girl, woman, man, at school, because those words exclude transgender apparently. You have to say cisgender. cisgender male from what I could gather from his parent, he seemed really confused and quite upset and angry about it. By the time he goes back, he’ll have been told his white mother is racist too I expect. 

I’m getting too old for this, it just feels wrong on so many levels and so different from what we used to be told about being encouraging and positive. What happened to motivational speaking? This new effort makes me want to just stay indoors and close the curtains.


----------



## Cleo38

[Q



Elles said:


> It is worrying that people are being sacked for saying the 'wrong' thing on social media, or in interviews, or having said the 'wrong' thing 20 years ago.
> 
> I'm uncomfortable with others trying to police my language and saying I have to educate myself and learn. How about they ask me what I mean, instead of my pussy footing around, treading on eggshells so I don't offend someone.
> 
> My neighbour's 10 year old was told by his teacher that he wasn't a boy and mustn't say it, because it's not inclusive. He was really upset about it, saying to his dad "I am a boy!" They're doing away with boy, girl, woman, man, at school, because those words exclude transgender apparently. You have to say cisgender. cisgender male from what I could gather from his parent, he seemed really confused and quite upset and angry about it. By the time he goes back, he'll have been told his white mother is racist too I expect.
> 
> I'm getting too old for this, it just feels wrong on so many levels and so different from what we used to be told about being encouraging and positive. What happened to motivational speaking? This new effort makes me want to just stay indoors and close the curtains.


WTF???!! So are human biology lessons going to be some sort of made up sh*t now then as obviously anatomy will be far too controversial now to be taught ….


----------



## mrs phas

Cleo38 said:


> [Q
> 
> WTF???!! So are human biology lessons going to be some sort of made up sh*t now then as obviously anatomy will be far too controversial now to be taught ….


Can you imagine how sex ed will be taught?


----------



## O2.0

Elles said:


> It is worrying that people are being sacked for saying the 'wrong' thing on social media, or in interviews, or having said the 'wrong' thing 20 years ago.


This is a separate issue though. Freedom of speech is one thing. Asking for repect in nomenclature is another. And again, I submit that social media isn't 'real' as far as every day interactions with fellow humans. 
In the real world if I say black and the person prefers to be identified as Puerto Rican, there is a conversation, and I can choose to honor the request or not. No more complicated than that. 
If I'm going on social media talking about my n***as and my boss takes issue with that, that's between me and my boss and the black community is not responsible for whatever action my boss decides to take.



Elles said:


> I'm uncomfortable with others trying to police my language and saying I have to educate myself and learn. How about they ask me what I mean, instead of my pussy footing around, treading on eggshells so I don't offend someone.


Not saying it doesn't happen, but I think this fear of being judged is slighly overstated. Media likes to sensationalize things to make it look like a problem that's really not. IME no one has ever been outright angry with me for saying Black instead of African American or vice versa. I spend a lot of time in multicultural communities and these issues that show up in the news and all over social media just aren't my esperience at all. No one is walking around waiting for you to mess up and call you on it. 
And honestly Elles, if you don't want to change anything, you don't have to. I know old folks in my community who still say 'colored' not maliciously, they're just set in their ways. No one cares, not the white folks, not the black folks. It is what it is. So you do you, and if that offends someone, so be it. However if you do want to have a conversation about what terms to use and why someone might prefer one or the other, again, IME most minorities are very happy to have that conversation.

I think when we reduce the conversation down to what terms should I use, we're missing the bigger picture which is a much bigger conversation on race and incusivity and respecting minority groups, and awareness....

And not for nothing, at least here in the US, minorities, particularly blacks, have had to walk on eggshells or be killed. So a little discomfort around terminology is not exactly a hardship I have a whole lot of sympathy for


----------



## Elles

O2.0 said:


> This is a separate issue though. Freedom of speech is one thing. Asking for repect in nomenclature is another. And again, I submit that social media isn't 'real' as far as every day interactions with fellow humans.
> In the real world if I say black and the person prefers to be identified as Puerto Rican, there is a conversation, and I can choose to honor the request or not. No more complicated than that.
> If I'm going on social media talking about my n***as and my boss takes issue with that, that's between me and my boss and the black community is not responsible for whatever action my boss decides to take.
> 
> Not saying it doesn't happen, but I think this fear of being judged is slighly overstated. Media likes to sensationalize things to make it look like a problem that's really not. IME no one has ever been outright angry with me for saying Black instead of African American or vice versa. I spend a lot of time in multicultural communities and these issues that show up in the news and all over social media just aren't my esperience at all. No one is walking around waiting for you to mess up and call you on it.
> And honestly Elles, if you don't want to change anything, you don't have to. I know old folks in my community who still say 'colored' not maliciously, they're just set in their ways. No one cares, not the white folks, not the black folks. It is what it is. So you do you, and if that offends someone, so be it. However if you do want to have a conversation about what terms to use and why someone might prefer one or the other, again, IME most minorities are very happy to have that conversation.
> 
> I think when we reduce the conversation down to what terms should I use, we're missing the bigger picture which is a much bigger conversation on race and incusivity and respecting minority groups, and awareness....
> 
> And not for nothing, at least here in the US, minorities, particularly blacks, have had to walk on eggshells or be killed. So a little discomfort around terminology is not exactly a hardship I have a whole lot of sympathy for


In some countries gays, women and girls are killed too, if they don't toe the line, in some even men are. In the U.K. we don't tend to get killed. I don't have discomfort around terminology, that's the other lot, who insist on specific words being used and change them with the weather. I'm uncomfortable with their telling me what I can and cannot say and getting people sacked, and/or thrown off social media if they don't get with the latest thing.


----------



## Elles

Cleo38 said:


> [Q
> 
> WTF???!! So are human biology lessons going to be some sort of made up sh*t now then as obviously anatomy will be far too controversial now to be taught ….


I could hardly believe it myself. We only just found out (as in us locals) because they opened the local clubhouse now the lockdown is easing and our neighbours were talking about it. We don't have school age kids, I thought all the more controversial stuff was pretty much London way, not down here and no idea it was going so far.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> In some countries gays, women and girls are killed too, if they don't toe the line, in some even men are. In the U.K. we don't tend to get killed. I don't have discomfort around terminology, that's the other lot, who insist on specific words being used and change them with the weather. I'm uncomfortable with their telling me what I can and cannot say and getting people sacked, and/or thrown off social media if they don't get with the latest thing.


Sadly there are honour killings in the UK and many young women taken abroad and forced to marry .


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> Sadly there are honour killings in the UK and many young women taken abroad and forced to marry .


True. They don't tend to be British and ensconced in British culture though. British culture doesn't include honour killings and child brides. In America you can be as American as the flag and still get shot for looking 'wrong' to some bigot it seems, so a part of American culture that they're trying to change.


----------



## Cleo38

Elles said:


> In some countries gays, women and girls are killed too, if they don't toe the line, in some even men are. In the U.K. we don't tend to get killed. I don't have discomfort around terminology, that's the other lot, who insist on specific words being used and change them with the weather. I'm uncomfortable with their telling me what I can and cannot say and getting people sacked, and/or thrown off social media if they don't get with the latest thing.


And now we seem to have 'Karen' shaming which although may seem harmless IMO is just another form of misogyny. There may have been instances where middle aged white women were inappropriate, etc but there have been numerous videos now on social media & some are horrible. One showed a black man hounding a poor, sobbing white woman who he deemed had cut him up whilst driving (maybe he thought there was a racial element to it, I don't know). He was telling her how he was posting it online along with her address, her car reg, etc … it was awful


----------



## kimthecat

@Cleo38 Did you see the bbc podcast with the two patronising white girls explaining how not to be a karen? I understand the bbc removed it. The term now seems on a level with terf.


----------



## Cleo38

kimthecat said:


> @Cleo38 Did you see the bbc podcast with the two patronising white girls explaining how not to be a karen? I understand the bbc removed it. The term now seems on a level with terf.


Unfortunately I didn't but was reading about it …. two posh privileged women laughing at those who weren't so much I believe?

But then I think this culture has been encouraged. I said on another thread that I felt Jeremy Kyle shows (& the like) were basically "Let's Laugh At Poor White People" … it wouldn't have been allowed if those people had been from another ethnic group. But then I think there is a class issue as well.


----------



## Calvine

O2.0 said:


> Asking the person you're talking about


I'm talking about in general, not just when you are in conversation with someone who is black, or ''of colour''.


----------



## Calvine

Cleo38 said:


> shaming their neighbours


Yes, a friend of mine in Wimbledon said they got a local residents' newsletter suggesting that all the residents of xxx Road should a) go out at a certain time and kneel and b) be sure to have a rainbow in their window. I'm not aware that they were ''shamed'' if they didn't but even telling everyone that they should consider doing it is quite shocking in my opinion. Householders are adults and old enough to decide for themselves if they want to. It just smacks of virtue signalling.


----------



## StormyThai

mrs phas said:


> Tbh I don't see why anyone who doesn't 'take a knee' or wear a badge should have to give their reasons for not doing so.


Neither I or Leclerc stated that he had to explain why he didn't take the knee...nor did F! or anyone else tbh.

I just said that I liked the reasons that he gave and that he gave them before the event so that it became a non issue -shrugs-

I don't see anyone "forced" to explain why they don't follow something...but different people see different things I guess.


----------



## havoc

StormyThai said:


> I don't see anyone "forced" to explain why they don't follow something...but different people see different things I guess.


Not overtly maybe but people are judgemental, each according to their own stance. If it stifles discussion that's a bad thing.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> @Cleo38 Did you see the bbc podcast with the two patronising white girls explaining how not to be a karen? I understand the bbc removed it. The term now seems on a level with terf.


Terf? You lost me there!


----------



## mrs phas

StormyThai said:


> Neither I or Leclerc stated that he had to explain why he didn't take the knee...nor did F! or anyone else tbh.
> 
> I just said that I liked the reasons that he gave and that he gave them before the event so that it became a non issue -shrugs-
> 
> I don't see anyone "forced" to explain why they don't follow something...but different people see different things I guess.


i didnt mention anyone, i quoted your post as it happened to mention people explaining reasons
but
i was quite obviously speaking, in general terms, about the widespread expectations of others to know reasons for everything
My apologies if you thought i was aiming at you
I will try harder to make sure i couch my posts in even more general terms in future, making sure i use gender neutral terms ( thats referring to another post, menting gender identifying, not anything youve said, just so your sure )
to make sure things stay on discussion terms,
rather than anyone taking offense where non is meant


----------



## Elles

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/stop-firing-innocent/613615/

I thought maybe people weren't losing their jobs or livelihoods over it in America, but it seems so. The more unusual cases are reported, but I doubt they're the only ones.


----------



## Cleo38

Elles said:


> https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/stop-firing-innocent/613615/
> 
> I thought maybe people weren't losing their jobs or livelihoods over it in America, but it seems so. The more unusual cases are reported, but I doubt they're the only ones.


Like Maya Forstater who was sacked because she held the opinion (like it could be questioned anyway but ….. ) that biological sex is real https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50858919


----------



## Cleo38

Calvine said:


> Terf? You lost me there!


TERF - Trans-exclusionary radical feminist. It is thrown at women who raise any questions or try to have a discussion regarding trans issues. It is supposed to be an insult but tbh having had this thrown at me so many times I can only say that I am quite ok with being called this by hysterical snow flakes who can't have a discussion without crying or being abusive


----------



## Elles

Cleo38 said:


> Like Maya Forstater who was sacked because she held the opinion (like it could be questioned anyway but ….. ) that biological sex is real https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50858919


tbh I didn't understand why she went to court. They didn't like what she said, so didn't renew her contract. If I don't like someone and don't have to renew a contract, I wouldn't either. That being said, when it did go to court, I think the judge was wrong in his summing up. I agree with Maya, I'm just not sure she was actually sacked.

I'm concerned about people mass mailing companies to get someone sacked, because they don't agree with their opinion and groups of women not being allowed to meet up because of mob rule. Oh and I don't think calling every white person racist and trying to change its meaning is helpful either. Children are listening to and being taught this stuff that adults can barely get their heads round.


----------



## Calvine

Cleo38 said:


> TERF - Trans-exclusionary radical feminist. It is thrown at women who raise any questions or try to have a discussion regarding trans issues. It is supposed to be an insult but tbh having had this thrown at me so many times I can only say that I am quite ok with being called this by hysterical snow flakes who can't have a discussion without crying or being abusive


Thank you!


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> so much has changed.


 True; and in 20 years it will have changed again.


----------



## Elles

Calvine said:


> True; and in 20 years it will have changed again.


20 years? More like next week.


----------



## O2.0

It's striking me that we're veering in to the territory of using one situation to nullify the validity of another. When in fact the current movement for racial equality could be exactly the reality check we need to protect feminism in the wake of some aspects of the trans movement. 

Anyone remember Rachel Dolezal? 
She posed as black while being a white woman and rose to a position of prominence in the NAACP pretending to be black. When finally caught out, she claimed to 'identify' as black even though she isn't, was raised by middle class white parents in a non-descript white neighborhood. 
People lost their shit (totally understandably) and no one accepted any validity to her 'claim' to feeling like she was a black woman. 
Following was an excellent conversation about what it really means to live as a black person, cultural appropriation and why what Ms Dolezal did was so wrong. 

See where I'm going with this? 
If it's not okay to claim to be black when you're not, how is claiming a biological sex you're not okay? 
This is where we could really find some insight and understanding, and use the racial equality movement to protect the women's movement. Because eveyone understands that if you are black and try to pretend you're white it doesn't work. In the same way it's much harder for a woman to pretend to be a man, and the risks to that woman pretending to be a man are huge. As opposed to a man pretending to be a woman. Translation: The more oppressed group doesn't get free entry in to the less oppressed group, but it's no problem for a member of the less oppressed group to infiltrate the more oppressed group. There's insight here. 

Not that we shouldn't treat anyone with gender identity issues with the utmost compassion and respect. That absolutely needs to be part of this too. But I think we can bring some sanity back to the conversation as well by simple juxtapositions between race and biological sex. 

And I really wish we could have actual conversations instead of twitter soundbites and media headlines. I heard the best analogy last night. Twitter is like processed food. Just as snack food companies make sure to combine the fat and salt and sugar content to maximize cravability, Twitter and FB and all the rest are designed to keep you hooked without any real substance to it. It's processed information. Watered down, all the good stuff removed, and extra salt, fat, and sugar added to keep you hooked and make you sick.


----------



## Cleo38

O2.0 said:


> It's striking me that we're veering in to the territory of using one situation to nullify the validity of another. When in fact the current movement for racial equality could be exactly the reality check we need to protect feminism in the wake of some aspects of the trans movement.
> 
> Anyone remember Rachel Dolezal?
> She posed as black while being a white woman and rose to a position of prominence in the NAACP pretending to be black. When finally caught out, she claimed to 'identify' as black even though she isn't, was raised by middle class white parents in a non-descript white neighborhood.
> People lost their shit (totally understandably) and no one accepted any validity to her 'claim' to feeling like she was a black woman.
> Following was an excellent conversation about what it really means to live as a black person, cultural appropriation and why what Ms Dolezal did was so wrong.
> 
> See where I'm going with this?
> If it's not okay to claim to be black when you're not, how is claiming a biological sex you're not okay?
> This is where we could really find some insight and understanding, and use the racial equality movement to protect the women's movement. Because eveyone understands that if you are black and try to pretend you're white it doesn't work. In the same way it's much harder for a woman to pretend to be a man, and the risks to that woman pretending to be a man are huge. As opposed to a man pretending to be a woman. Translation: The more oppressed group doesn't get free entry in to the less oppressed group, but it's no problem for a member of the less oppressed group to infiltrate the more oppressed group. There's insight here.
> 
> Not that we shouldn't treat anyone with gender identity issues with the utmost compassion and respect. That absolutely needs to be part of this too. But I think we can bring some sanity back to the conversation as well by simple juxtapositions between race and biological sex.
> 
> And I really wish we could have actual conversations instead of twitter soundbites and media headlines. I heard the best analogy last night. Twitter is like processed food. Just as snack food companies make sure to combine the fat and salt and sugar content to maximize cravability, Twitter and FB and all the rest are designed to keep you hooked without any real substance to it. It's processed information. Watered down, all the good stuff removed, and extra salt, fat, and sugar added to keep you hooked and make you sick.


I completely agree. There was actually a pretty good debate on a current affairs FB page last week that I was part of. It actually involved quite a few people with varying opinions, people of varying ages & genders. It was so refreshing to be able to discuss & actually understand someone else's view in a manner which wasn't hysterical or confrontational, to disagree without aggression & to discuss a very complicated issue.

There was one "f*ck off TERF" comment which was dealt with then ignored & everyone else carried on. This is how it should be but unfortunately this is not the norm.


----------



## Elles

The difference between race and sex, is that on conception we could be either sex, but our race is fixed depending on the race of our parents and ancestry. Hence we can feel female, but have male characteristics, but we can’t feel black if we’re white. 

Not my argument btw, but that’s what they’re saying when people ‘maliciously try to use race to support their transphobic views.’


----------



## Cleo38

Elles said:


> The difference between race and sex, is that on conception we could be either sex, but our race is fixed depending on the race of our parents and ancestry. Hence we can feel female, but have male characteristics, but we can't feel black if we're white.
> 
> Not my argument btw, but that's what they're saying when people 'maliciously try to use race to support their transphobic views.'


Not according to some https://metro.co.uk/2018/11/04/whit...eaders-says-he-is-born-again-african-8104661/

Article from a couple of years ago but I wonder if there has been others who have claimed the same. You couldn't make this sh*t up


----------



## Pawscrossed

O2.0 said:


> To me that's one of those non-issues I posted about earlier in the thread.
> There's a difference between "I'm scared to refer to any racial minority for fear of getting backlash on social media" and "If I make a mistake please tell me because I'm trying to be teachable and I know I still have a lot to learn."
> The latter opens the conversation up, you can ask why this term or that term, and learn more about a culture you may not be familiar with.
> Like why someone who's Puerto Rican might make a point of clarifying that along with being Black. Because being a Black person from Detroit is a very different vibe than being a Black person from Puerto Rico. Though both are technically also "American."
> BTW, even American is an intersting label. When people say American, often it means from the USA, yet there are multiple other countries in the Americas.
> As above, I think if you come from a place of willingness to learn, the vast majority of people are very happy to have a conversation about it. Social Media makes it feel like everyone is constantly offended about terminolity, but in real life, across multiple cultures and languages, I've never found it to be an issue.


It is about asking, I'm firmly of the mindset to ask. Yet I agree @kimthecat you may get hell on social media but it's okay to preface your words to say you're learning/interested etc. Anyone should be fine with that, if not then they're not worth your time online or real life.

My partner is a black man, but he's happy to be asked. A good friend of ours prefers 'woman of colour' but is equally fine with 'black woman'. I'm Irish, but my accent is light so I'm mostly viewed as White British but I'm proud of my Irishness, so prefer Irish. Seems to automatically make my brain lay on my accent a lot thicker so my partner says!

May I share this with everyone, it's very good piece that shows how long the problems of racism have been happening. It has impacted on Zephaniah in many areas of his life.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2...my-back-and-i-thought-ok-im-going-to-die-here


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> Terf? You lost me there!


Cleo beat me to it with an explanation. 

Germaine Greer is considered a TERF because of her transgender views . She was a major voice for woman's rights back in the day and young woman today are benefiting from that. 
Yet they are so ungrateful.

I think humour can help get a message over , Anyone watched Blackish about a middle class black family ? I know that theme had been done before but it makes you cringe at the white people where Dre works but also laugh at them. 
I can remember watching Goodness Gracious me and laughing at Going for an English but also recognising the way English people treated the Indian and Chinese waiters at the restaurants . It was spot on.


----------



## Elles

I know I'm going to get slaughtered for saying it, but those are human beings that are being killed. How much better if we all stood up and said this is unacceptable? No human should be killed in such a way, whatever they may, or may not have done. People's stories are heartbreaking. We have been progressing generally though, I thought. I'm just concerned that this is setting us back. That the solutions being put forward could be making things worse not better, especially the more extreme ideologies and identity politics. 

Is your partner hopeful for the future @Pawscrossed ?


----------



## kimthecat

Pawscrossed said:


> It is about asking, I'm firmly of the mindset to ask. Yet I agree @kimthecat you may get hell on social media but it's okay to preface your words to say you're learning/interested etc. Anyone should be fine with that, if not then they're not worth your time online or real life.
> 
> My partner is a black man, but he's happy to be asked. A good friend of ours prefers 'woman of colour' but is equally fine with 'black woman'. I'm Irish, but my accent is light so I'm mostly viewed as White British but I'm proud of my Irishness, so prefer Irish. Seems to automatically make my brain lay on my accent a lot thicker so my partner says!
> 
> May I share this with everyone, it's very good piece that shows how long the problems of racism have been happening. It has impacted on Zephaniah in many areas of his life.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/books/2...my-back-and-i-thought-ok-im-going-to-die-here


I admire Benjamin Zephaniah and that is a very moving article in the Guardian and it brings it home. 

West London has been a popular place for Irish people to settle. My sister married a man from Northern Ireland and my best friend married a man from Southern Ireland . We call anyone here from Ireland , Irish . Not so many Welsh and Scots here but I would refer to them as Welsh and Scots ,


----------



## O2.0

That's a powerful article @Pawscrossed

I learned a new phrase today. I'm halfway through a very meadering podcast that so far has covered everything from BLM to transgender sports to chiropractic medicine. 
Anyway, the new phrase I learned is "nut picking" like the prase cherry picking except with nut picking you're trolling through all the material that covers a certain topic and you find the nuttiest, craziest, most easily dismissed soundbite, and then you use that to define and then dismiss the entire topic.

Example, you find the nuttiest vegan parents who fed their children nothing but watered down almond milk and lettuce and the children nearly died and had to be taken away by child protective services to save them. From here you extrapolate that veganism is ridiculous, it kills children and only deluded idiots support a vegan diet. Veganism kills children. Nut picking.

At it's core all the BLM movement is asking for is for black lives to matter as much as white lives in the context of our systems of power like policing, voting, and opportunites for economic stability like aquiring loans. No one is saying white lives don't matter, or that they should matter less. It's just asking for equal consideration for those who are not white. It's nothing controversial at all, or at least I would hope it's not.

Yet the idea of equality for all races has become the victim of a whole lot of nut picking. People freaking out becasue some maple syrup brand is changing it's label. Or sharing stories of some person getting fired for saying all lives matter. I see it on this thread - hand wringing 'oh the world's gone mad' and therefore all this black lives matter stuff is equally mad, and invalid and let's just dismiss the whole thing.

We spend a lot of time telling people to do their own research but even research is now corrupted because if you google, even google will hit the craziest extremes first. That's what makes the headlines. 
I say we all get off google, get off twitter, get off FB and go out among our fellow humans and interact with them on a human level. I think you will find people are much more sane and reasonable that the world of click bait would have you believe.


----------



## MollySmith

Pawscrossed said:


> It is about asking, I'm firmly of the mindset to ask. Yet I agree @kimthecat you may get hell on social media but it's okay to preface your words to say you're learning/interested etc. Anyone should be fine with that, if not then they're not worth your time online or real life.
> 
> My partner is a black man, but he's happy to be asked. A good friend of ours prefers 'woman of colour' but is equally fine with 'black woman'. I'm Irish, but my accent is light so I'm mostly viewed as White British but I'm proud of my Irishness, so prefer Irish. Seems to automatically make my brain lay on my accent a lot thicker so my partner says!
> 
> May I share this with everyone, it's very good piece that shows how long the problems of racism have been happening. It has impacted on Zephaniah in many areas of his life.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/books/2...my-back-and-i-thought-ok-im-going-to-die-here


I read this article over weekend, he's an amazing man.

I met him at Fertility Fest in London where they have a day on More to Life, for people who can't have children and he read his poem Naked which is about male infertility. I was working in the foyer at the Barbican where it was held as a support/counsellor for the audience. He wanted to sign copies of his book so we arranged an impromptu signing which took about an hour as he spoke to everyone and took selfies. He made many of us feel fortunate, wanted and important despite the painful circumstances of our meeting. Sheridan Voysey who is a vicar on BBC Radio 2's thought for the day was also there too and similarity was incredibly compassionate (he gave me a hug when I burst into tears!)

I didn't know his adoption application was affected in this way, that's incredibly heartbreaking and why it's so damm important to be rid of this parasite of racism. He would have been an incredible father.

thanks for sharing, I meant to post here myself.


----------



## MollySmith

O2.0 said:


> That's a powerful article @Pawscrossed
> 
> I learned a new phrase today. I'm halfway through a very meadering podcast that so far has covered everything from BLM to transgender sports to chiropractic medicine.
> Anyway, the new phrase I learned is "nut picking" like the prase cherry picking except with nut picking you're trolling through all the material that covers a certain topic and you find the nuttiest, craziest, most easily dismissed soundbite, and then you use that to define and then dismiss the entire topic.
> 
> Example, you find the nuttiest vegan parents who fed their children nothing but watered down almond milk and lettuce and the children nearly died and had to be taken away by child protective services to save them. From here you extrapolate that veganism is ridiculous, it kills children and only deluded idiots support a vegan diet. Veganism kills children. Nut picking.
> 
> At it's core all the BLM movement is asking for is for black lives to matter as much as white lives in the context of our systems of power like policing, voting, and opportunites for economic stability like aquiring loans. No one is saying white lives don't matter, or that they should matter less. It's just asking for equal consideration for those who are not white. It's nothing controversial at all, or at least I would hope it's not.
> 
> Yet the idea of equality for all races has become the victim of a whole lot of nut picking. People freaking out becasue some maple syrup brand is changing it's label. Or sharing stories of some person getting fired for saying all lives matter. I see it on this thread - hand wringing 'oh the world's gone mad' and therefore all this black lives matter stuff is equally mad, and invalid and let's just dismiss the whole thing.
> 
> We spend a lot of time telling people to do their own research but even research is now corrupted because if you google, even google will hit the craziest extremes first. That's what makes the headlines.
> I say we all get off google, get off twitter, get off FB and go out among our fellow humans and interact with them on a human level. I think you will find people are much more sane and reasonable that the world of click bait would have you believe.


Brilliant. I'd also advocate getting off PF too.... apart from @Pawscrossed i think we are all in danger of hypothesising - not all, I think we at at least talking but I feel a bit like any suggestions I make have my influence/bias. Kind of why I had to go and do the podcast episode do hear it from four women of colour and it's so much more human and emotive when it's heard from them, the pain is incredibly real.


----------



## MollySmith

Do you know who invented the filament for lightbulbs? Without googling.

if you don't, (I didn't) now watch this.

https://www.facebook.com/503844335/posts/10158244233194336/?


----------



## kimthecat

O2.0 said:


> That's a powerful article @Pawscrossed
> 
> At it's core all the BLM movement is asking for is for black lives to matter as much as white lives in the context of* our *systems of power like policing, voting, and opportunites for economic stability like aquiring loans. No one is saying white lives don't matter, or that they should matter less. It's just asking for equal consideration for those who are not white. It's nothing controversial at all, or at least I would hope it's not.
> 
> .


I see your point about nut picking!
Ive highlighted "our" in you post . Do you mean the States or does that include the UK.

I mentioned our Uk laws in an earlier post and wonder what could be done to improve them . I dont think i got a response though I might have missed any.

I do feel the equal rights and hate laws seem to give a lot of protection with voting etc and the police do take hate laws seriously or perhaps thats just here. But there's always room for improvement



> I say we all get off google, get off twitter, get off FB and go out among our fellow humans and interact with them on a human level. I think you will find people are much more sane and reasonable that the world of click bait would have you believe.


and what about the ones that are not. I could tell of a few negative real life experiences first and second hand but wouldnt that be nutpicking or extrapolating.

As to interacting on a human level with fellow humans , I feel I do . I dont do stuff like go down the pub or have people to dinner , as i said before we chat in the street, moan about the parking and help each other when needed , we don't go round contemplating our navel .


----------



## Elles

O2.0 said:


> That's a powerful article @Pawscrossed
> 
> I learned a new phrase today. I'm halfway through a very meadering podcast that so far has covered everything from BLM to transgender sports to chiropractic medicine.
> Anyway, the new phrase I learned is "nut picking" like the prase cherry picking except with nut picking you're trolling through all the material that covers a certain topic and you find the nuttiest, craziest, most easily dismissed soundbite, and then you use that to define and then dismiss the entire topic.
> 
> Example, you find the nuttiest vegan parents who fed their children nothing but watered down almond milk and lettuce and the children nearly died and had to be taken away by child protective services to save them. From here you extrapolate that veganism is ridiculous, it kills children and only deluded idiots support a vegan diet. Veganism kills children. Nut picking.
> 
> At it's core all the BLM movement is asking for is for black lives to matter as much as white lives in the context of our systems of power like policing, voting, and opportunites for economic stability like aquiring loans. No one is saying white lives don't matter, or that they should matter less. It's just asking for equal consideration for those who are not white. It's nothing controversial at all, or at least I would hope it's not.
> 
> Yet the idea of equality for all races has become the victim of a whole lot of nut picking. People freaking out becasue some maple syrup brand is changing it's label. Or sharing stories of some person getting fired for saying all lives matter. I see it on this thread - hand wringing 'oh the world's gone mad' and therefore all this black lives matter stuff is equally mad, and invalid and let's just dismiss the whole thing.
> 
> We spend a lot of time telling people to do their own research but even research is now corrupted because if you google, even google will hit the craziest extremes first. That's what makes the headlines.
> I say we all get off google, get off twitter, get off FB and go out among our fellow humans and interact with them on a human level. I think you will find people are much more sane and reasonable that the world of click bait would have you believe.


I wish you were right and it was just extremes on twitter, but sadly not.

I hadn't seen anyone dismissing the core of the black lives matter movement, or saying that racism doesn't exist. We're criticising the extremes and concerned that it is taking away from what could be done in a practical way. I've joined my local community group. They put a flyer through the door last week, because our community is concerned where this is leading.

In this country voting and acquiring loans doesn't have the same importance I think, if that's the right word. British citizens have the right to vote and we never had the red lining, where whole areas that were mainly black couldn't get loans. It's been mostly based on income and sex. Women couldn't get loans and as recent as less than 10 years ago, a double glazing company told me they couldn't quote on replacement windows without my husband present. Sexist view that only he could sign the paperwork and pay for it and they like to pressure you on the day I expect.

We always said you can only get a bank loan if you don't need one, which was probably more true round here, though of course at one stage they threw money around willy nilly until no one could afford to pay it back and we crashed.

I suppose I'm not keen on labels and I like discussing stuff, even if it segues into something different from where we started.  It doesn't mean what we were talking about lost importance, it's still not good that Cummings got away with driving around when he was sick and we were locked down, but we've gone a bit off topic since. Though the header is still relatable, if it's one rule for white people and one rule for black. Or one rule for women and one rule for men. Etc.


----------



## Elles

I subscribed to these guys a couple of years back, I don't always agree with them, especially on some women's issues, but I think they're great. Aba and Preach.


----------



## O2.0

Elles said:


> I subscribed to these guys a couple of years back, I don't always agree with them, especially on some women's issues, but I think they're great. Aba and Preach.


They're saying what I was trying to say (apparently badly) further up. We're talking about what terminology you can use, and they don't care. We're talking about the wrong thing. Asking if a white person can say 'n****a' or not is an unimportant question. It doesn't save lives. We talk about the 'easy' stuff and end up not talking about the real issues facing minorities. Great point.


----------



## kimthecat

Im not sure I understand the legal stuff but this seems ironic.

A white group called Lady Antebellum registered the name Lady A in 2010. They recently changed their name to lady A because of slave connections to Antebellum. A black blues and Gospel singer has called herself Lady for decades ......

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...e-black-singer-lady-a-name-change-anita-white

The US country group Lady A - known until recently as Lady Antebellum, before changing their name to shed its slavery-era connotations - is suing the blues and gospel artist Lady A over use of the name.

When the trio first announced the name change in June out of respect for black Americans, it appeared that they were unaware that Anita White had been performing as Lady A for 20 years. "This is my life," White said at the time.

Shortly after the announcement, two parties shared an image of a Zoom call and said they were "moving forward with positive solutions and common ground". Those talks have broken down. In a statement, the members of the country group said that representatives for White "demanded a $10m [£7.79m] payment".
The group is not seeking financial damages from White, nor that she change her stage name, but is instead suing her for recognition of a trademark it claims "we have held for many years" and to avoid further litigation.

"We are sad to share that our sincere hope to join together with Anita White in unity and common purpose has ended," the group said in a statement. They added that with White they had "shared our stories, listened to each other, prayed and spent hours on the phone and text writing a song about this experience together".

In an interview with Vulture published yesterday, White said she is seeking $10m (£7.8m) in order to use half to rebrand and market herself, with the other half to be donated to charities including those that support independent black artists.

She said she felt the band's actions had branded her as an "angry black woman". White explained: "I was quiet for two weeks because I was trying to believe that it was going to be okay and that they would realise that it would be easier to just change their name, or pay me for my name.

"$5m is nothing, and I'm actually worth more than that, regardless of what they think. But here we go again with another white person trying to take something from a black person, even though they say they're trying to help. If you want to be an advocate or an ally, you help those who you're oppressing. And that might require you to give up something because I am not going to be erased."

She said the first contract the band sent regarding the shared use of the name "had no substance". White said: "It said that we would coexist and that they would use their best efforts to assist me on social media platforms, Amazon, iTunes, all that. But what does that mean? I had suggested on the Zoom call that they go by the Band Lady A, or Lady A the Band, and I could be Lady A the Artist, but they didn't want to do that."

She said she had already felt the repercussions of the Grammy-winning country group adopting the name Lady A. "I attempted to upload my single [on independent distribution service DistroKid] and couldn't verify my name, Lady A, for several days. It finally went through and now I'm just waiting until my July release to see if my single will be buried."

Hillary Scott, Charles Kelley and Dave Haywood formed Lady Antebellum in 2006, and say that they faced no opposition, including from White, when they registered "Lady A" as a trademark in 2010.


----------



## mrs phas

Sorry, but it would seem doing an interview, with vulture, sums it up
Lady antebellum want nothing
Lady A wants $10m for doing nothing

It's nothing to do with black v white, it's to do with trademark laws
They trademarked it, she didn't, nuff said, no need to make it about race
Bit like when Harrods sued the tiny corner shop, in the next village to ours, that had been called R. Harrods, for over 100 years, because 'it would cause confusion'
And many other instances (I think 21st century studios/films was one, to stop 20th century studios/film from changing)

Laws still stand, without being racially divisive
Sorry but kudos lost in this instance


----------



## MollySmith

Back to Cummings for a moment... more dodgy stuff 
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ct-without-open-tender?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> I am probably misunderstanding but isn't it also that it's also about approaching actors who are gay or trans for the part first, or disabled actors for appropriate parts. Not shame, but also being mindful of equality in the casting.


perhaps. Halle Berry was offered the part and accepted then forced to relinquish it and apologise as if she had done something terrible.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/halle-berry-apologises-comments-transgender-015854120.html

Berry, 53, has now apologised and said she should not have been considered for the part.

"As a cisgender woman, I now understand that I should not have considered this role and that the transgender community should undeniably have the opportunity to tell their own stories.

"I am grateful for the guidance and critical conversation over the past few days and I will continue to listen, educate and learn from this mistake. I vow to be an ally in using my voice to promote better representation on-screen, both in front of and behind the camera."

I find her statement creepy and brainwashed. 
I assume anyone is allowed to play a cis woman , shouldn't we be allowed to tell our stories? Jodie Foster is a lesbian and successful actor playing varied
roles .
Acting is acting regardless of who the actor is .


----------



## mrs phas

kimthecat said:


> I find her statement creepy and brainwashed.
> I assume anyone is allowed to play a cis woman , shouldn't we be allowed to tell our stories? Jodie Foster is a lesbian and successful actor playing varied
> roles .
> Acting is acting regardless of who the actor is .


Eddy Redmayne played the lead in the Danish Girl
just wouldnt have worked with a transvestite or transgender
i hear and expect no apology from him
He played, in my opinion, a blinder
art, is art, is art

At the end of the day, those who are* self identifying transgenders*, have a choice
there are others who do not
for example:
I was more offended by the casting of a healthy, non disabled, actor, in the TV series Glee
in the role of someone who was wheelchair bound
just because of a 5 min 'dream' section, within a whole series, where they wanted the character to dance, something that was not so vital to the episode, that the directors/producers choice of actor needed to be one pretending to be disabled
after all the gay and lesbian characters were played by gay/lesbian actors the black, latino characters, by black/latino actors
can you imagine the furore had they not have been

Ive seen some mind blowing wheelchair dancers
who were, again in my opinion only, totally, disrespected by not being given a chance of the part,
even, perhaps
casting someone that was partially in a wheelchair, someone who could have easily taken the role AND acted the dream sequence
by continuing to represent disabled people, in movies, on tv and even stage ( The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time, comes to mind, where an aspergic character is played, by someone not on the spectrum)
choosing to cast those who are able bodied,
over those with disabilities
is reprehensible


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> Back to Cummings for a moment... more dodgy stuff
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ct-without-open-tender?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


 how do they get away with it.!


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> how do they get away with it.!


Things never change do they.


----------



## MollySmith

For those who asked, a podcast link here


----------



## Pawscrossed

MollySmith said:


> For those who asked, a podcast link here


Amazing listen, thank you. Loved the resources. I will ask my OH to share.


----------



## mrs phas

Not sure why, 
But
This has upset me in a way non of the tearing down of statues, arguing over names, senseless vandalism and rioting, or protesters not maintaining social distancing and therefore endangering others lives ( not the actual reason behind the protests though) has

BBC News - Dambusters dog: Headstone replaced to remove racist name
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-53436447

I suppose it's because it 'punishes' a true innocent ,in these centuries of chaos


----------



## Nonnie

mrs phas said:


> Not sure why,
> But
> This has upset me in a way non of the tearing down of statues, arguing over names, senseless vandalism and rioting, or protesters not maintaining social distancing and therefore endangering others lives ( not the actual reason behind the protests though) has
> 
> BBC News - Dambusters dog: Headstone replaced to remove racist name
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-53436447
> 
> I suppose it's because it 'punishes' a true innocent ,in these centuries of chaos


The dog was called ******. I think a replacement (its not being removed permanently) is absolutely the right idea.


----------



## mrs phas

Nonnie said:


> The dog was called ******. I think a replacement (its not being removed permanently) is absolutely the right idea.


I'm well aware of the dog's name, thank you,
I think most, who have knowledge of one of our greatest ww2 pilots are
I also didn't say I disagreed with it, nor do I disagree with you
True innocence is rare in all of this, justified, historical uproar, that's all


----------



## Happy Paws2

Nonnie said:


> The dog was called ******. I think a replacement (its not being removed permanently) is absolutely the right idea.


I'm sorry but I think this is really going over the top, black dogs were called ****** at the time, same as black cats were called Blacky, We called one of our cats Blacky because he was black is that something we can't call them anymore.:Banghead


----------



## StormyThai

Happy Paws2 said:


> black dogs were called ****** at the time,


And that term is extremely offensive now on many levels...dogs have their names changed all the time and having the dogs name changed does not effect the film...so why is it too far?


----------



## Nonnie

Happy Paws2 said:


> I'm sorry but I think this is really going over the top, black dogs were called ****** at the time, same as black cats were called Blacky, We called one of our cats Blacky because he was black is that something we can't call them anymore.:Banghead


Context is everything.

The word is offensive. It was offensive then too.

This is a working RAF base, with black RAF members. Why should they have to be subjected to seeing that? Black people fought and died in the wars for this country too, and should be showed some respect.

Its simply a plaque being replaced to show some respect to fellow humans. Unless you have a problem with black people, i cant see the issue.


----------



## Jaf

I don’t know that re-writing history helps anything. People shouldn’t forget that black people were called revolting names. I can’t see that anyone would be offended by a 80 year old dog name. Though I don’t really know why there’s a plaque to a dog.

I have a white cat called “Blanca” as her proper name and my black cats are all called “blacky” as nicknames, just as my ginger cats are called “ginge”. Though I think the Spanish “*****” sounds worse in my head than “black” so I self censored.


----------



## Happy Paws2

[QUOTE="Jaf, post: 1065643743, member: 1412367"*]I don't know that re-writing history helps anything.* _People shouldn't forget that black people were called revolting names. I can't see that anyone would be offended by a 80 year old dog name. Though I don't really know why there's a plaque to a dog._
_
I have a white cat called "Blanca" as her proper name and my black cats are all called "blacky" as nicknames, just as my ginger cats are called "ginge". Though I think the Spanish "*****" sounds worse in my head than "black" so I self censored_.[/QUOTE]

I think that's what some are trying to do, these thing happened and names were used, but that was then, we have learnt a lot since over the years but do we have to wipe out history, if we do no one we learn anything from the past in the future.


----------



## StormyThai

Removing the plaque that uses an extremely offensive word (was offensive then as it is now, just because lots of people did something it doesn't make it right) is not rewriting history.
People don't learn history from offensive plaques and statues...people learn history when they research for themselves.


----------



## Jaf

StormyThai said:


> Removing the plaque that uses an extremely offensive word (was offensive then as it is now, just because lots of people did something it doesn't make it right) is not rewriting history.
> People don't learn history from offensive plaques and statues...people learn history when they research for themselves.


Well maybe not re-writing but hiding it. The people that bother to research history are probably able to think for themselves and hopefully less likely to be racist gits. It's a personal opinion that coming across a slave trade painting or a plaque with a dog's name or a slum might just spark a thought of "that's wrong". I suppose it might also spark "oh those were the good old days".

Again personally I couldn't be offended by something so old. The guardian newspaper won't even use the "n" word. On its own, not used against anyone, it's just a word.


----------



## StormyThai

Jaf said:


> Again personally I couldn't be offended by something so old. The guardian newspaper won't even use the "n" word. On its own, not used against anyone, it's just a word.


It's not just a word to many thousands though and that is the point.


----------



## Lurcherlad

I doubt the dog would be offended by the name change tbh and it will save causing unnecessary offence in current times and going forward.

Whilst other names for pets could be seen in a similar vein (Blackie for example) none, as far as I know have such a negative or insulting connotation as the “n” word.


----------



## kimthecat

Im old enough to remember the colour paint for artists was n*gger brown and people calling their black pets N*gger , it wasnt meant to offend in the UK but things changed and it is offensive. At the time in the UK, or least in london, the word w*g was used as a racist insult.
When I was in primary school in the early 60s , i had a friend who was mixed race or half caste the term used then. Very few Bame about . She told me people called her w*g and I didnt know what it meant so went I went home I said What does w*g mean, Mum ? !


----------



## SusieRainbow

Anyone remember the little badges you could get by collecting tokens from Robertsons marmalade? My daughter had a few dfferent ones and admred her friend's one on a school trip - she was 7, referring to it as a 'Golly'. Friend's mum went ballistic and shouted at her for using such an offensive word, poor daughter was very distressed by this and of course completely innocent.
Is that not racist ?


----------



## rona

SusieRainbow said:


> Anyone remember the little badges you could get by collecting tokens from Robertsons marmalade? My daughter had a few dfferent ones and admred her friend's one on a school trip - she was 7, referring to it as a 'Golly'. Friend's mum went ballistic and shouted at her for using such an offensive word, poor daughter was very distressed by this and of course completely innocent.
> Is that not racist ?


Yep. We used to collect them. Badges and little figurines.

My sister had a cloth doll of the same form.

we didn't even think of any connotations and I'm absolutely sure my parents didn't either


----------



## ForestWomble

I remember the tokens too. Gran got a few figurines, still has them I think and she gave me a doll.

Does anyone remember the Enid Blyton book The Three G*******s? I enjoyed reading those stories.
Having all the above and reading the stories hasn't made me or means I am racist.


----------



## MollySmith

StormyThai said:


> It's not just a word to many thousands though and that is the point.


Exactly.

The trouble with Robertsons and all the supposedly 'cute' times gone by is that society didn't listen and language is _really_ important.


----------



## MollySmith

Pawscrossed said:


> Amazing listen, thank you. Loved the resources. I will ask my OH to share.


Thanks! And for any shares too, it means a lot.

We had 65 downloads in the first 2 hours which is way more than we usually get in the same time frame, and lots of lovely feedback from the community, and beyond. I hope we got the tone right, I think so. I certainly found it very educational as a presenter.


----------



## Jaf

I think the thing for me is that words just don’t offend me. There are words I don’t like, mostly female genitalia, but I’d never ask people not to use a particular word. It’s the meaning behind the word that offends, such as “coconut”, which in itself is not an offensive word.

I think the opportunity to explain the meaning behind words is very important but at the same time hope that some words just fade away.


----------



## O2.0

mrs phas said:


> Not sure why,
> But
> This has upset me in a way non of the tearing down of statues, arguing over names, senseless vandalism and rioting, or protesters not maintaining social distancing and therefore endangering others lives ( not the actual reason behind the protests though) has
> 
> BBC News - Dambusters dog: Headstone replaced to remove racist name
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-53436447
> 
> I suppose it's because it 'punishes' a true innocent ,in these centuries of chaos


As said in the article, the standards have changed throughout the years. The airmen also gave the doog beer until he passed out. I'm sure that would not be okay by today's standards either.


----------



## MollySmith

Jaf said:


> I think the thing for me is that words just don't offend me. There are words I don't like, mostly female genitalia, but I'd never ask people not to use a particular word. It's the meaning behind the word that offends, such as "coconut", which in itself is not an offensive word.
> 
> I think the opportunity to explain the meaning behind words is very important but at the same time hope that some words just fade away.


Depends if you're black. The fact that everyone is using asterisks says why it's offensive and it comes with years of oppression. As a white woman, I have no direct idea, but I can be empathetic.


----------



## Happy Paws2

SusieRainbow said:


> Anyone remember the little badges you could get by collecting tokens from Robertsons marmalade? My daughter had a few dfferent ones and admred her friend's one on a school trip - she was 7, referring to it as a 'Golly'. Friend's mum went ballistic and shouted at her for using such an offensive word, poor daughter was very distressed by this and of course completely innocent.
> Is that not racist ?


I had the badges as well and a Golly soft toy, don't think anything racist was meant by them at the time.


----------



## Nonnie

Happy Paws2 said:


> I had the badges as well and a Golly soft toy, don't think anything racist was meant by them at the time.


Thats just it, they WERE meant to be racist/offensive, but due to how black people were treated and viewed at the time, white people didnt bat an eyelid.

The same goes for calling the dog ******. It has ALWAYS been a racist slur - this will have been known by the people who used it at the time. The word has been nothing other than a derogatory term for black people. Its never been a term of endearment, or a pet name, it has always been an offensive insult.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Nonnie said:


> The same goes for calling the dog ******. It has ALWAYS been a racist slur - this will have been known by the people who used it at the time. The word has been nothing other than a derogatory term for black people. Its never been a term of endearment, or a pet name, it has always been an offensive insult.


My Aunty had a dog called ****** just because it was brown, I don't think she ever thought about as racist it was just a brown dog. In fact going back then we ever saw anyone black where we lived, I never saw any when I was growing up so how could we be racist.


----------



## mrs phas

It's not the word golly that's offensive
But
The end of the, original, longer name
And
The fact that all of them represented a white man's view of minstrel singers/band
I still have a black rag doll, from my childhood, dressed in maids wear, I wouldn't get rid of it, as it's dear to me, but neither would I have it on display, anywhere other than my bedroom


----------



## Nonnie

Happy Paws2 said:


> My Aunty had a dog called ****** just because it was brown, I don't think she ever thought about as racist it was just a brown dog. In fact going back then we ever saw anyone black where we lived, I never saw any when I was growing up so how could we be racist.


Either she was racist, or simply ignorant to the words origins, which is just as bad. But she must have know, otherwise why would you call a brown dog ******?

It doesnt matter if you see black people or not. If you think of them, or refer to them as, *******, then you are racist and being offensive. Now or in the past.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Nonnie said:


> Either she was racist, or simply ignorant to the words origins, which is just as bad. But she must have know, *otherwise why would you call a brown dog *******?


Because it was just a colour I don't think we ever thought of it as anything else and why it just as bad, do you know the origins of every word you know. Remember things were very different in the 1950's.


----------



## Nonnie

Happy Paws2 said:


> Because it was just a colour I don't think we ever thought of it as anything else and why it just as bad, do you know the origins of every word you know. .


Are you honestly saying neither you, nor any of your family had any idea that the word ****** was in relation to black people? I find that impossible to believe.



Happy Paws2 said:


> Remember things were very different in the 1950's.


Yes, people were inherently more racist and readily accepted being offensive.

Not a lot has changed either.


----------



## O2.0

Nonnie said:


> Are you honestly saying neither you, nor any of your family had any idea that the word ****** was in relation to black people? I find that impossible to believe.


Exactly. In the 1950s everyone knew what that word meant, and knew also the more polite term was 'colored' as has been mentioned on here. 
And for that reason, older folks around here are easily forgiven for saying 'colored' because it's not meant as an insult. N****r has always been meant as an insult.


----------



## Jaf

My understanding was that it started off meaning from Nigeria.

At my school the biggest insult was the word “fish”. For Pakistani kids being a fisherman was a low caste job so the word “fish” was calling them scum. Should we ban this word too?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Nonnie said:


> Are you honestly saying neither you, nor any of your family had any idea that the word ****** was in relation to black people? I find that impossible to believe.
> .


I don't care what you think, I've you what why we used the word, so it's up to you if you think I'm lying.


----------



## Nonnie

Jaf said:


> My understanding was that it started off meaning from Nigeria.
> 
> At my school the biggest insult was the word "fish". For Pakistani kids being a fisherman was a low caste job so the word "fish" was calling them scum. Should we ban this word too?


No, it derives from the Spanish '*****', which means black.

Using a word to be offensive should be banned, yes. As said previously, context is everything.

The thing with the term ******, is that it isnt a word that has evolved like, say bitch (female dog, but can be used as an insult) or fish; it has only ever had one meaning and that is an offensive term for a black person.


----------



## O2.0

N****r has always been meant as a racial slur as early back as 1574. It has never meant anything other than an offensive, insulting and contemptuous word for a black person. Even during the slave trade, the polite term was *****, not n****r.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/******#h1
"There is a widespread belief that the original meaning of _******_, as defined in dictionaries, was "an ignorant person," and a related belief that current dictionary definitions describing its use as a hateful, racist epithet are a recent change. We do not know the source of those beliefs, but they are not accurate. The word was first included in a Merriam-Webster dictionary in 1864, at which time it was defined as a synonym of _*****_, with a note indicating that it was used "in derision or depreciation." There has never been a definition like "an ignorant person" for this word in any subsequent dictionary published by this company. Nor do we know of such a definition in any earlier dictionary."

No, "fish" should not be banned, because fish means an animal, just as if I call someone a jackass, doesn't mean it's not a correct term for a male donkey.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Happy Paws2 said:


> I had the badges as well and a Golly soft toy, don't think anything racist was meant by them at the time.





Happy Paws2 said:


> My Aunty had a dog called ****** just because it was brown, I don't think she ever thought about as racist it was just a brown dog. In fact going back then we ever saw anyone black where we lived, I never saw any when I was growing up so how could we be racist.


It is representative of the time and ties into how people were treated at the time. My partner's parents had to move many times as they were considered offensive - and frequently barred from cafes or pubs with signs that said 'no dogs or blacks'. His father was a surgeon.

One hopes nobody would call their dog that now as we know more.



Jaf said:


> My understanding was that it started off meaning from Nigeria.
> 
> At my school the biggest insult was the word "fish". For Pakistani kids being a fisherman was a low caste job so the word "fish" was calling them scum. Should we ban this word too?


No, it's a catch all word and bastardisation of *****. That's why it's so offensive, if only it did recognise people as individuals. Black people down from England, from Scotland, France... and many countries including Nigeria. This is more in the word. Seriously? Ban 'fish' 

https://www.ferris.edu/HTMLS/news/jimcrow/caricature/homepage.htm


----------



## Pawscrossed

MollySmith said:


> Thanks! And for any shares too, it means a lot.
> 
> We had 65 downloads in the first 2 hours which is way more than we usually get in the same time frame, and lots of lovely feedback from the community, and beyond. I hope we got the tone right, I think so. I certainly found it very educational as a presenter.


Yes you did. We really liked it. I've bought Yvonne's book and loved Civilla. Her own podcast is brilliant!


----------



## O2.0

Jaf said:


> My understanding was that it started off meaning from Nigeria.


That doesn't even make sense. 
Nigerian is someone from Nigeria. And Nigeria wasn't even named as a country (or British territory) until the 1800s ish? 
Meanwhile n****r was already in use and had been since the 1500's, 300 years prior to the naming of the 'Niger river area' - Nigeria.

For all the crying about let's not rewrite history, how 'bout let's learn some first LOL!


----------



## Happy Paws2

Nonnie said:


> fish; it has only ever had one meaning and that is an offensive term for a black person.


I didn't know that!

edited, wrong answer


----------



## Jesthar

Jaf said:


> My understanding was that it started off meaning from Nigeria.


No, it comes from the Spanish word for 'black'



Jaf said:


> At my school the biggest insult was the word "fish". For Pakistani kids being a fisherman was a low caste job so the word "fish" was calling them scum. Should we ban this word too?


Of course not. 'Fish' is a word with a number of primary legitimate uses, and will be used that way 99.9% of the time. The situation you are referring to is a very specific cultural reference - unpleasant, certainly, but not a reflection on the word itself.

The N word, on the other hand, had ONLY ever existed as a derogotory term, and has no redeeming definitions whatsoever.



Happy Paws2 said:


> I don't care what you think, I've you what why we used the word, so it's up to you if you think I'm lying.


No-one thinks you are lying. All people are doing is pointing out that it is a (rather shocking) measure of just how acceptable and widespread casual racism was in those times that the use of the most vile and derogatory term in existance for black people was not only commonplace, but some people didn't even realise what they were doing - thought it was 'just a colour'


----------



## O2.0

***** is the Spanish and Portuguese word for black. 
Which was also used in English referring to people. 

I feel like I keep repeating myself, but N****r doesn't come from any other term. It has never meant anything other than an offensive and insulting way to refer to black people. 

***** used to be polite and could be used benignly. As could colored. These terms were not offensive originally, though now they have changed. 
You can forgive someone for saying colored because it used to be considered polite. Maybe they're older and haven't moved on with the times, maybe they're non native English speakers and read the term in a book and thought it was still okay. 

N****r has always been offensive, never meant in any way other than to insult. It never had any other meaning or derivation from a less derisive word. Like ****** meaning a bundle of sticks. 
It's not a term you confuse for anything other than the insult it is meant to be.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Jesthar said:


> All people are doing is pointing out that it is a (rather shocking) measure of just how acceptable and widespread casual racism was in those times that the use of the most vile and derogatory term in existance for black people was not only commonplace, but some people didn't even realise what they were doing - thought it was 'just a colour'


If you expect me to say sorry for the way we were, you are wrong I have no intention of saying it.


----------



## O2.0

Happy Paws2 said:


> If you expect me to say sorry for the way we were, you are wrong I have no intention of saying it.


Are you glad people are less openly racist now? Like, are you glad times have changed?


----------



## stuaz

Perhaps rather than simply removing the name, a chance should be taken to also leave information as to why it's being removed? I know most people will know (I hope), but the more explanations and more mainstream that we point out blatant racism is better rather than a simple removal? 

Even if it's just a class trip and the kids see info explaining the removal, then I see that as a positive as a teachable moment to the kids on equality and an evolving society. 

I'm a big believing in learning from our mistakes and history and maybe in a distant future the explanation will be seen as not needed and that too can go the way of the dodo.


----------



## Pawscrossed

stuaz said:


> Perhaps rather than simply removing the name, a chance should be taken to also leave information as to why it's being removed? I know most people will know (I hope), but the more explanations and more mainstream that we point out blatant racism is better rather than a simple removal?
> 
> Even if it's just a class trip and the kids see info explaining the removal, then I see that as a positive as a teachable moment to the kids on equality and an evolving society.
> 
> I'm a big believing in learning from our mistakes and history and maybe in a distant future the explanation will be seen as not needed and that too can go the way of the dodo.


Which is what was going to happen with Edward Colston had the original revision of the plague happened, as it should. I agree, to move on we have to learn from the past and appreciate why it's not acceptable, like really understand not lip service because it's trendy.


----------



## Jaf

I never looked up the origin. I have never used it as a word other than here. I suppose my point was that it’s possible to not know the correct origin of a word. Certainly it’s much easier to research now than it was in the past. I don’t see why anyone would have not believed other people when told it just meant a colour. I wouldn’t blame anyone for believing that.

Also, going back to naming of pets, why would anyone intentionally call their pet a horrible name?


----------



## rona

Nonnie said:


> Are you honestly saying neither you, nor any of your family had any idea that the word ****** was in relation to black people? I find that impossible to believe.


I did and my family did but I'm 100% sure that we didn't know it was offensive. I just thought it referred to colour. The same as black does.

However, I can only remember meeting/seeing one black person up until my twenties. We had quite a few people from Indian in a local town because of the influx for the NHS, but it's not a town I'd ever frequented until I was much older. My childhood was almost completely white British, in fact white English

You only need to look at the tv programmers to realise what it was like. If you see them now the seem awful but then it wasn't really seen as offensive. The joke was nearly always on the racist.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> I knew that!


I didn't .................


----------



## O2.0

Today the US mourns the passing of John Lewis, icon in the civil rights movement and politician with a concience. 
His life in pictures:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/20/politics/gallery/john-lewis/index.html
Gives us a good reminder of how far we have come, and the work yet to be done.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> I didn't .................


Sorry I got that wrong, I meant to say, I didn't know that.


----------



## O2.0

I don't pretend to know anything about the UK in the 1950's but I do know it was not completely isolated either. If you had a radio, a television, read newspapers and spoke to other people, you would have to know that n****r was a derogatory term. If you used the term coloured, you would have to know that n****r is the derogatory version of colored. Maybe you didn't think much about it, but you knew. On some level you knew.

And back to the original post about the Dambusters dog, the airmen absolutely knew that the term was offensive. They served in the RAF, they were well aware of the term and it's meaning.

I don't blame people for using the word freely as it was not frowned upon back then, but I don't buy that people didn't know what it meant.
That would be like me saying I didn't know fvck was an impolite term because people use it all the time. It is of course true that people say f*ck all the time, doesn't mean we don't all know it's an expletive.


----------



## Jaf

I was born in the 70s, brought up in an area where 90% of the kids were Indian or Pakistani descent. I knew enough as a kid not to call other kids nasty names, whether racist or not. But I absolutely did not know the true origins of those words. The kids called each other all sorts of names, a lot of them did not have English as their first language so I doubt they knew the origins either.

If I am told the meaning of a word as a child why would I have not believed that it was true? If I was born in the 50s and told a word meant a colour then why would I disbelieve it? I think it’s unfair to say that people didn’t know! 

I still can’t understand why RAF would call their pet a name if they believed it to be horrible term. Presumably they loved him!


----------



## rona

O2.0 said:


> That would be like me saying I didn't know fvck was an impolite term because people use it all the time. It is of course true that people say f*ck all the time, doesn't mean we don't all know it's an expletive.


I certainly didn't know what that meant until well into my teen years
I could tell you about wildlife though



Jaf said:


> If I was born in the 50s and told a word meant a colour then why would I disbelieve it?


Quite. My parents were country people and we didn't even have a tv until I was about 6. Hard working parents living in the countryside. Why would they know?
If things didn't effect their own struggles, why on earth would they have cared?
8 mouths to feed was far more pressing


----------



## rona

Does anyone from way back when remember that silly rhyme where you put in different words?

I think it started with a word, any word. eg. Stick bam bick sticker rick joe fick

I did it with Duck. Duck bam buck sticker ruck joe............. very innocently at about 12 and got a slap round the head for what I didn't know.............


----------



## Happy Paws2

O2.0 said:


> I don't pretend to know anything about the UK in the 1950's but I do know it was not completely isolated either. If you had a radio, a television, read newspapers and spoke to other people, you would have to know that n****r was a derogatory term. If you used the term coloured, you would have to know that n****r is the derogatory version of colored. Maybe you didn't think much about it, but you knew. On some level you knew.
> 
> And back to the original post about the Dambusters dog, the airmen absolutely knew that the term was offensive. They served in the RAF, they were well aware of the term and it's meaning.
> 
> I don't blame people for using the word freely as it was not frowned upon back then, but I don't buy that people didn't know what it meant.
> That would be like me saying I didn't know fvck was an impolite term because people use it all the time. It is of course true that people say f*ck all the time, doesn't mean we don't all know it's an expletive.


I don't understand why you are so bl**dy minded and won't believe, that some people just thought it was the name of a shade of brown.


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> Does anyone from way back when remember that silly rhyme where you put in different words?
> 
> I think it started with a word, any word. eg. Stick bam bick sticker rick joe fick
> 
> I did it with Duck. Duck bam buck sticker ruck joe............. very innocently at about 12 and got a slap round the head for what I didn't know.............


:Hilarious

I wonder if they have removed the episodes from dads Army where Corporal Jones refers to the Fuzzy Wuzzies ( WW1 )

https://dadsarmy.fandom.com/wiki/Fuzzy_Wuzzies


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> I don't understand why you are so bl**dy minded and won't believe, that some people just thought it was the name of a shade of brown.


I assume that because the artist paint was called ****** brown then it sort of made it official and seen as acceptable and not offensive. 
In the war , the black forces were treated better by the British then their own colleagues .


----------



## ForestWomble

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious
> 
> I wonder if they have removed the episodes from dads Army where Corporal Jones refers to the Fuzzy Wuzzies ( WW1 )
> 
> https://dadsarmy.fandom.com/wiki/Fuzzy_Wuzzies


I saw a Dad's Army episode recently and Jones talked about the Fuzzy Wuzzies :Hilarious


----------



## SusieRainbow

One of my aunties had a cat called Coon, she was the most gregarious and soical person I ever knew and I would bet my last £ that it was not intended as a racial slur to anyone.
I also feel it's unfair to say that no-one could be unaware of racial insults. l lived in remote areas with no media, went to a small village school and only ever saw other white people until I started my nurse training.
Anyone remember the Nursery Rhyme 'Eeny meeny miny mo' ? That was chanted in total innocence by me and my friends, we and our parents thought nothing of it.


----------



## kimthecat

Main coon cats and coon hound bred to hunt racoons . 

Im not sure where the term coon originated meaning black people but assume it transferred from that ? 

Strangely , a black man on twitter said he's been called coconut and coon by other black people.


----------



## ForestWomble

SusieRainbow said:


> One of my aunties had a cat called Coon, she was the most gregarious and soical person I ever knew and I would bet my last £ that it was not intended as a racial slur to anyone.
> I also feel it's unfair to say that no-one could be unaware of racial insults. l lived in remote areas with no media, went to a small village school and only ever saw other white people until I started my nurse training.
> Anyone remember the Nursery Rhyme 'Eeny meeny miny mo' ? That was chanted in total innocence by me and my friends, we and our parents thought nothing of it.


Exactly. I am a 90's child but I was either at school (had a lot of foreign pupils there but all European, never saw a non white person) , with my Gran, with my parents, or in my room reading, we lived in a mainly white area, still do actually, as a child I hardely watched the TV and when I did it was mainly childrens programmes, old fashioned comedy or the occasional drama, never listened to the radio and we aren't a social family so wasn't around others much.
I picked up words from my Grandparents and didn't know they were 'bad' until I was in my early 20's.
I still remember saying I thought half castes are very pretty, I was told off by a none family member for using that term, when I asked what the problem was I was just told you do not say that, so I found out it was wrong but not why.

I remember Eeny meeny, used it at school a lot.


----------



## O2.0

SusieRainbow said:


> One of my aunties had a cat called Coon, she was the most gregarious and soical person I ever knew and I would bet my last £ that it was not intended as a racial slur to anyone.
> I also feel it's unfair to say that no-one could be unaware of racial insults. l lived in remote areas with no media, went to a small village school and only ever saw other white people until I started my nurse training.
> Anyone remember the Nursery Rhyme 'Eeny meeny miny mo' ? That was chanted in total innocence by me and my friends, we and our parents thought nothing of it.


Again, coon is a shortened term for raccoon and to this day coonhounds and as above maine coons are legitimate breeds of dogs and calling your dog a coon dog is not intended as a racial slur. 
N****r has never been anything other than a racial slur. If I'm being bloody minded, whatever that means, then you all are being deliberately dense by not recognizing that many words have multiple meanings or historically different meanings, n****r doesn't and never has. You keep trying to bring up other words like coon, or fish, or ****** etc. but it's simply not the same thing.

And of course individuals, especially younger children might not know the racial baggage of the word n****r, especially not if it's used freely around them, but the general population knew. Yes, even in rural white England. Especially after WW2, the country was very well aware of the term and how it was used.

I don't really know how to put in to words what a mean-spirited vibe I'm getting off the turn this thread has taken. By people who I don't consider mean spirited at all, which makes it even more jarring. 
I'm not black, but I'm not considered white by many, and I have many black people, young people particularly in my life who I am very protective of. I can only imagine what it would feel like for them to read this thread, some of the comments, the callous, flippant attitude. I really don't know what to say TBH so I'll just shut up.


----------



## SusieRainbow

I, for one, take great exception to being called 'deliberately dense', specially as I've gone to some lengths to explain that there are some amongst us _who genuinely did not know about 'n*****r being such a racial insult._
How about some tolerance ? I could accuse you of being ageist, but that's OK as long as it's not racist.


----------



## rona

O2.0 said:


> Yes, even in rural white England. Especially after WW2, the country was very well aware of the term and how it was used.


Why if you had been in the home guard and your partner a farmer from a farming family?

How would the war have educated you?


----------



## rona

SusieRainbow said:


> I, for one, take great exception to being called 'deliberately dense', specially as I've gone to some lengths to explain that there are some amongst us _who genuinely did not know about 'n*****r being such a racial insult._
> How about some tolerance ? I could accuse you of being ageist, but that's OK as long as it's not racist.


More than that. We are being called liars. 

That is one thing I most definitely am not


----------



## Jaf

I was only trying to explain that I didn’t know the origin. From my experience since I didn’t know, and I assume my friends didn’t know, then I believe it’s reasonable to believe that some other people didn’t know either.

I don’t excuse racism at all. I just don’t believe everyone that used certain words were racist. It’s good to talk about it though, to try to understand is never a bad thing.


----------



## kimthecat

O2.0 said:


> Again, coon is a shortened term for raccoon and to this day coonhounds and as above maine coons are legitimate breeds of dogs and calling your dog a coon dog is not intended as a racial slur.
> .


Yes, indeed but it would be racist to call your dog or cat Coon nowadays and is used as an insult

ETA Googled it. It seems it come from the fact that racoon dogs were used to find escape slaves


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> Why if you had been in the home guard and your partner a farmer from a farming family?
> 
> How would the war have educated you?


When the US troops descended on the UK, they brought their blatant racism with them, including routine use of the N word and other slurs. The UK, whilst far from perfect, had never experienced the extreme levels of legally mandated prejudice and enforced segregation commonplace across many areas of the US, and when the UK government were formally requested by the US military to segregate black GIs from the entirity of the white British population, they refused as they knew it would incense the British public - though they didn't take any steps to formally oppose segregation practices either for fear of upsetting the US. This led to white GIs and US military police trying to enforce segregation at a local level in the areas they were billetted - and they were spread all over the country, many rural locations included.

Much to the white GIs shock, the locals frequently too the side of the blacks against the racists, sometimes even fighting alongside the black GIs if things went that far. For example, there was a famous incident in a pub in Bristol in which the landlord refused to eject two African American soldiers at the demand of white Americans. It's famous because the pub was called the Colston Arms - and the Colston it was named after was a slave trader. In 1943, Mass Observation, the pioneering weekly study of popular attitudes found considerable admiration for blacks among Bristol dockers ("they are not like we've seen them in the films ... not stupid and dull.")

I'm not saying the UK was perfect, but despite many having never seen a black person in the flesh before (their only exposure being Hollywoods then decidedly negative portrayal of them), majority of Brits were shocked at the way black GIs were treated by their white counterparts, and found the black GIs to be by far the more polite and well mannered of the US soldiers. The black GIs in their turn were astounded at being treated as equal human beings by whites for the first time in their lives, and it's often said that this experience of British equality was key in igniting the civil rights movement in the US after the war. Conversely, it may well have been the open racism of white GIs that spread the use of the N word in a casual capacity in the UK.



Jaf said:


> I was only trying to explain that I didn't know the origin. From my experience since I didn't know, and I assume my friends didn't know, then I believe it's reasonable to believe that some other people didn't know either.
> 
> I don't excuse racism at all. I just don't believe everyone that used certain words were racist. It's good to talk about it though, to try to understand is never a bad thing.


"Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better." - _Maya Angelou 
_
The N-word is an interesting case, though - there can't be too many words that are 100%-no-other-origin-than-extremely-derogatory where the derogatory aspect has been totally forgotten to such an extent...


----------



## Happy Paws2

O2.0 said:


> then you all are being deliberately dense by not recognizing that many words have multiple meanings or historically different meanings, n****r doesn't and never has.
> 
> .


I'm not bring deliberately dense and I take offence that you would even think it.


----------



## O2.0

Thanks @Jesthar 

Does anyone else see the irony? 
All this hand wringing about a plaque about a dog being changed, because it's apparently 'rewriting' history. 
But no pangs at all about trying to pretend that n****r was not an offensive term. So innofensive in fact, that it was okay to name a dog that. That men who had served in the RAF during WW2 would not have known it was an offensive word. Perfect example of revisionist history.

Rewriting history - not okay. But revisionist history - that's perfectly okay.


----------



## rona

See no evil, hear no evil speak no evil. 

If you live a life where you don't see something or hear something, then you cannot then speak it.

You may know the words but just the words not the evil behind. 

Even my mother, a true country bumpkin got to understand the evil in the end, but only to a minor degree having still never witnessed it in her entire 90+ years


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> perhaps. Halle Berry was offered the part and accepted then forced to relinquish it and apologise as if she had done something terrible.
> 
> https://uk.news.yahoo.com/halle-berry-apologises-comments-transgender-015854120.html
> 
> Berry, 53, has now apologised and said she should not have been considered for the part.
> 
> "As a cisgender woman, I now understand that I should not have considered this role and that the transgender community should undeniably have the opportunity to tell their own stories.
> 
> "I am grateful for the guidance and critical conversation over the past few days and I will continue to listen, educate and learn from this mistake. I vow to be an ally in using my voice to promote better representation on-screen, both in front of and behind the camera."
> 
> I find her statement creepy and brainwashed.
> I assume anyone is allowed to play a cis woman , shouldn't we be allowed to tell our stories? Jodie Foster is a lesbian and successful actor playing varied
> roles .
> Acting is acting regardless of who the actor is .


It's becoming ridiculous, comical in fact. No matter what you do or say, one ''side'' or the other will rush to take offence; agree, there was no reason for her to offer such a grovelling, self-deprecating apology. And as you say, should Jodie Foster from now refuse to accept roles as a 'cis' (wherever that came from) woman.


----------



## Lurcherlad




----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> When the US troops descended on the UK, they brought their blatant racism with them, including routine use of the N word and other slurs. The UK, whilst far from perfect, had never experienced the extreme levels of legally mandated prejudice and enforced segregation commonplace across many areas of the US, and when the UK government were formally requested by the US military to segregate black GIs from the entirity of the white British population, they refused as they knew it would incense the British public - though they didn't take any steps to formally oppose segregation practices either for fear of upsetting the US. This led to white GIs and US military police trying to enforce segregation at a local level in the areas they were billetted - and they were spread all over the country, many rural locations included.
> 
> Much to the white GIs shock, the locals frequently too the side of the blacks against the racists, sometimes even fighting alongside the black GIs if things went that far. For example, there was a famous incident in a pub in Bristol in which the landlord refused to eject two African American soldiers at the demand of white Americans. It's famous because the pub was called the Colston Arms - and the Colston it was named after was a slave trader. In 1943, Mass Observation, the pioneering weekly study of popular attitudes found considerable admiration for blacks among Bristol dockers ("they are not like we've seen them in the films ... not stupid and dull.")
> 
> I'm not saying the UK was perfect, but despite many having never seen a black person in the flesh before (their only exposure being Hollywoods then decidedly negative portrayal of them), majority of Brits were shocked at the way black GIs were treated by their white counterparts, and found the black GIs to be by far the more polite and well mannered of the US soldiers. The black GIs in their turn were astounded at being treated as equal human beings by whites for the first time in their lives, and it's often said that this experience of British equality was key in igniting the civil rights movement in the US after the war. Conversely, it may well have been the open racism of white GIs that spread the use of the N word in a casual capacity in the UK.
> .


I mentioned this earlier so thanks for expanding . Segregation! Shocking isn't it. 

The empty space for a statue at Bristol , maybe they should have one of the hero Martin Luther King perhaps if they want history , William Wilberforce.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> The empty space for a statue at Bristol ,


 I read that some joker had put a mannequin of Jimmy Savile there!! From the ridiculous to the sublime, as they say.


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> The empty space for a statue at Bristol , maybe they should have one of the hero Martin Luther King perhaps if they want history , William Wilberforce.


How about a nurse or doctor from the local hospital.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> I read that some joker had put a mannequin of Jimmy Savile there!! From the ridiculous to the sublime, as they say.


 Blimey .


----------



## Lurcherlad

Happy Paws2 said:


> How about a nurse or doctor from the local hospital.


Do we need statues?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Lurcherlad said:


> Do we need statues?


To honest... I've never really seen the point of them, expect they make a nice perch for the pigeons.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Happy Paws2 said:


> To honest... I've never really seen the point of them, expect they make a nice perch for the pigeons.


True 

In this day and age, we have more important things to spend large sums of money on imo.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Makes interesting reading...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-53444752


----------



## Pawscrossed

Happy Paws2 said:


> Makes interesting reading...
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-53444752


@MollySmith's excellent podcast has one of her guests talking about how black history needs to come to terms with it's involvement in slavery too. I do not think that's not been discussed in the black lives discussions but it has been covered more in the countries affected for longer. The difference being that in the west, we've literally 'white washed' for years through language and inaccuracies as many contributions to this thread seem to indicate.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Lurcherlad said:


> True
> 
> In this day and age, we have more important things to spend large sums of money on imo.


Good point. There seems to have been a move lately towards more genetic monuments that are more art than statues like the Monument to the Women of World War II which honours a movement. If there has to be a statue then maybe that's the way, but there are more important things I agree. I'd rather money that comes from developers - S106 I think it's called - is used for plants and trees than public art or statues (If that's how they are funded? I think many are invested in, and it's stakeholders that appear to have held up the revision of Colston's plaque).

I live in a cemetery lodge, I have seen how mindless vandalism becomes a problem too. And then there's the likeness. Some of them are like Madam Tussards at Blackpool. 
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/stat...ZLHS0jjpJyXKkvG3krNeykEHkCRwBBO2N_uqpo8gbau9g


----------



## MilleD

O2.0 said:


> Thanks @Jesthar
> 
> Does anyone else see the irony?
> All this hand wringing about a plaque about a dog being changed, because it's apparently 'rewriting' history.
> But no pangs at all about trying to pretend that n****r was not an offensive term. So innofensive in fact, that it was okay to name a dog that. That men who had served in the RAF during WW2 would not have known it was an offensive word. Perfect example of revisionist history.
> 
> Rewriting history - not okay. But revisionist history - that's perfectly okay.


I honestly don't think that people are trying to pretend that it wasn't an offensive term. I think they are saying that they weren't _aware _of the connotations years ago.

We used to sing eeny meeny miny mo. The word was in that. Didn't even consider at the time that it might have even meant anything, much less something offensive. Was just a way of choosing who was 'it'.


----------



## MilleD

Pawscrossed said:


> Good point. There seems to have been a move lately towards more genetic monuments that are more art than statues like the Monument to the Women of World War II which honours a movement. If there has to be a statue then maybe that's the way, but there are more important things I agree. I'd rather money that comes from developers - S106 I think it's called - is used for plants and trees than public art or statues (If that's how they are funded? I think many are invested in, and it's stakeholders that appear to have held up the revision of Colston's plaque).
> 
> I live in a cemetery lodge, I have seen how mindless vandalism becomes a problem too. And then there's the likeness. Some of them are like Madam Tussards at Blackpool.
> https://www.huffpost.com/entry/stat...ZLHS0jjpJyXKkvG3krNeykEHkCRwBBO2N_uqpo8gbau9g


S106 money is not used for statues. At least it isn't nowadays.


----------



## LinznMilly

MilleD said:


> I honestly don't think that people are trying to pretend that it wasn't an offensive term. I think they are saying that they weren't _aware _of the connotations years ago.
> 
> We used to sing eeny meeny miny mo. The word was in that. Didn't even consider at the time that it might have even meant anything, much less something offensive. Was just a way of choosing who was 'it'.


We used to sing Eeny Meeny Miny Mo too, but we used the word "fish". I always thought it was weird because obviously fish don't have toes. Didn't realise it meant something else entirely until I started to read this thread yesterday.

I've never used the N word in my life, but we did used to refer to the corner shop as the "Pakkis." :Bag. Mum and dad used it, so so did we. I was about 8 when I learned it was offensive - and that was by a neighbour. Never used the term since.


----------



## Elles

MilleD said:


> I honestly don't think that people are trying to pretend that it wasn't an offensive term. I think they are saying that they weren't _aware _of the connotations years ago.
> 
> We used to sing eeny meeny miny mo. The word was in that. Didn't even consider at the time that it might have even meant anything, much less something offensive. Was just a way of choosing who was 'it'.


Exactly. As already mentioned a lot of words are used as insults, people didn't necessarily know that the n word was only ever an insult, I didn't until it was pointed out in this thread. Ofc I know it's an insult and the one word no one is allowed to use, but I've never thought about its origins. Back then we said sticks and stones, were told not to swear and taught a lot of rhymes and stories without their actual background. If I learned a particular thing was insulting and cruel, I wouldn't say it, I wouldn't ask why.

I didn't know until recently that 10 little n boys, started out as ******, either would probably be unacceptable really. When I read the Agatha Christie book, didn't think twice about it.

Isn't that the point though? How we've accepted white supremacy and culture without questioning it and expected black people to conform too? In Europe maybe it's to be expected, when in Rome and people chose to come, but not America where it's been foisted on black people from the get go, without their permission and now they're complaining about it.

I'd say that today we all have the same choice in the free west. We're all born into it without being asked and plenty of white people want a different society too. Look at the different religious societies, I watched a film about mennonites only last week and people have been dropping out and setting up communes for donkey's years. Many black folk like the free market society and are conservatives, the ones who don't and aren't should stop insulting them. Marx was white. We're born and we die and in between we hope for the best.


----------



## Lurcherlad

MilleD said:


> I honestly don't think that people are trying to pretend that it wasn't an offensive term. I think they are saying that they weren't _aware _of the connotations years ago.
> 
> We used to sing eeny meeny miny mo. The word was in that. Didn't even consider at the time that it might have even meant anything, much less something offensive. Was just a way of choosing who was 'it'.


Agree.

I sang it as a child in the 60's with absolutely no clue of it's meaning.

When I had my son 23 years ago, I remember starting once to sing the song to him whilst tickling his toes at nappy change but stopped abruptly at the word "catch" as I remembered the next few words. I never sang it again.

There were lots of these words and phrases that most people stopped using as times changed.


----------



## lullabydream

LinznMilly said:


> We used to sing Eeny Meeny Miny Mo too, but we used the word "fish". I always thought it was weird because obviously fish don't have toes. Didn't realise it meant something else entirely until I started to read this thread yesterday.
> 
> I've never used the N word in my life, but we did used to refer to the corner shop as the "Pakkis." :Bag. Mum and dad used it, so so did we. I was about 8 when I learned it was offensive - and that was by a neighbour. Never used the term since.


We used the word baby here not fish.. So someone somewhere changed the word. I don't know, my sisters used to sing it too and am sure my mum used to too.

It's only reading here I read the original song.


----------



## MollySmith

MilleD said:


> S106 money is not used for statues. At least it isn't nowadays.


It can be used for public art. I always think it's guilt money from some developers for building some terrible places to live.


----------



## Mum2Heidi

Eden meany was sang to me regularly by my grandmother. You wouldn’t meet a kinder more open minded person.
It was done with no malicious intent. Probably unaware of the implications. Just a word in a song.
Then again, I watched Captain Pugwash on a Sunday afternoon. Oblivious to the implications of
Seaman Staines and Master Bates as I’m sure she was. I actually didn’t realise those name implications until I was middle aged. Very sheltered life 
How times change ....


----------



## O2.0

MilleD said:


> I honestly don't think that people are trying to pretend that it wasn't an offensive term. I think they are saying that they weren't _aware _of the connotations years ago.


Thank you for trying to smooth things over  
That's not how the thread read to me at all. I most definitely got a vibe of "we used to use the word all the time and didn't mean anything by it" translation: since we didn't mean it to be offensive, it wasn't.

I hope it's okay if I indulge here for a minute.
My original objection was to the claim that n****r didn't used to be offensive. It was always offensive. It has never had any other meaning. All I got in response to "n*****r has always been an offensive word" were examples of how it was used back in the day. I'm not sure how giving me more and more examples of it being used magically makes it not offensive, but whatever.

I clearly stated that some indifiduals might not have known:


O2.0 said:


> And of course individuals, especially younger children might not know the racial baggage of the word n****r, especially not if it's used freely around them,


This caveat was completely ignored and several members went on to continue to explain how the word wasn't offensive. 
At this point I was honestly starting to feel gaslit like I was losing my mind. No one was acknowledging that it was and is an offensive word, just more and more examples of it's use and then examples of other words that can be used as racial slurs. Which just adds to the gaslighting if you think about it because n****r has never had any other meaning like other words have.

At this point I'm finding myself repeating the same thing over and over without any acknowledgement of what I'm saying. Which just adds to the weird feeling that I'm actually losing my mind - effective gaslighting at its best. 
And some posts were downright aggressive. I still don't know what bloody minded means but I'm guessing it's not nice.

There were a couple complaints about replacing a plaque is rewriting history. Which is so ironic because of the total lack of historical understanding that RAF airmen from WW2 would most definitley have known n****r was a racial slur as beautifully explained by @Jesthar (thank you again). 
They knew and didn't care that it was offensive. That's the stark reality.

@Elles explains it well.


Elles said:


> Isn't that the point though? How we've accepted white supremacy and culture without questioning it and expected black people to conform too?


 Black soldiers were expected to hear the racial slurs, hear black dogs called n****r and just accept it. Live with it. And they did. Young children were indoctrinated in to white supremacy with cute nursery rhymes about catching escaped slaves. Black children were taught and chanted the same rhymes. It's that insidious.

They say history is written by the victors, but it's more than that. 
History is nothing but a collection of stories we tell ourselves about the past in a way that we can reconcile and make things make sense. We would do well to remember that.

There's a significant difference between saying we use to say this nursery rhyme, wow I didn't know then how offensive that was, but looking back it is kind of cringy isn't it? Versus just shrugging off ubiquitous use of a racial slur like it was meaningless. 
Not to blame or reprimand for the use of the word, but be open and acknowledge how utterly sick it is to teach a child a racial slur in a nursery rhyme about catching escaped slaves. And how f-ed up it is that no one thought about the meaning of the rhyme enough to object. Obviously at some point someone did as n****r was replaced with other less offensive terms.

As an aside, it's noteworthy that the program that runs this forum will star out f u c k if you type it out, also a s s h o l e but n****r does not. I'm doing it on my keyboard because it is that offensive that even I won't type it out. 
So if I want to call my dog an a s s h o l e the program won't let me, even though he most definitely can be one. But if I want to call him a n****r it will. He's a black dog, it's okay to call him that right? 

In any case, I'm finding this thread too upsetting to be healthy which is why I stepped away and will likely continue to stay away. Please don't be offended if you quote or tag me and I don't respond.


----------



## MilleD

Mum2Heidi said:


> Eden meany was sang to me regularly by my grandmother. You wouldn't meet a kinder more open minded person.
> It was done with no malicious intent. Probably unaware of the implications. Just a word in a song.
> Then again, I watched Captain Pugwash on a Sunday afternoon. Oblivious to the implications of
> Seaman Staines and Master Bates as I'm sure she was. I actually didn't realise those name implications until I was middle aged. Very sheltered life
> How times change ....


You know that's an urban myth right?

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/captain-pugwash-double-meanings/


----------



## MilleD

MollySmith said:


> It can be used for public art. I always think it's guilt money from some developers for building some terrible places to live.


It's never been used for public art as far as I know where I live. Parks and things, yes, so maybe if there is an installation in one of those I suppose....

It's not always guilt money! Sometimes a local authority needs funds if they need to build new roads or schools because of an increase in population density.

My LA often doesn't spend it. Then sometimes we have to give it back. Seems a bit odd to me.


----------



## ForestWomble

LinznMilly said:


> We used to sing Eeny Meeny Miny Mo too, but we used the word "fish". I always thought it was weird because obviously fish don't have toes. Didn't realise it meant something else entirely until I started to read this thread yesterday.
> 
> I've never used the N word in my life, but we did used to refer to the corner shop as the "Pakkis." :Bag. Mum and dad used it, so so did we. I was about 8 when I learned it was offensive - and that was by a neighbour. Never used the term since.


I never knew the original word to Eeny meeny either until this thread, I spent ages doing the rhyme over and over in my head trying to work out which word or words was the bad one, we used fisher, which like you I thought was odd but didn't question it.


----------



## Mum2Heidi

MilleD said:


> You know that's an urban myth right?
> 
> https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/captain-pugwash-double-meanings/


Now I'm completely cafuddled


----------



## kimthecat

Mum2Heidi said:


> Eden meany was sang to me regularly by my grandmother. You wouldn't meet a kinder more open minded person.
> It was done with no malicious intent. Probably unaware of the implications. Just a word in a song.
> Then again, I watched Captain Pugwash on a Sunday afternoon. Oblivious to the implications of
> Seaman Staines and Master Bates as I'm sure she was. I actually didn't realise those name implications until I was middle aged. Very sheltered life
> How times change ....


 never thought about it but then I haven't watch it for years . Blimey !



Mum2Heidi said:


> Now I'm completely cafuddled


This words a new one to me ! I like the sound of it and I hope its not rude.


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> never thought about it but then I haven't watch it for years . Blimey !


See above, those characters were not in the programme!


----------



## kimthecat

LinznMilly said:


> We used to sing Eeny Meeny Miny Mo too, but we used the word "fish". I always thought it was weird because obviously fish don't have toes. Didn't realise it meant something else entirely until I started to read this thread yesterday.
> 
> I've never used the N word in my life, but we did used to refer to the corner shop as the "Pakkis." :Bag. Mum and dad used it, so so did we. I was about 8 when I learned it was offensive - and that was by a neighbour. Never used the term since.


Pakis and w*g was used to be offensive in the Seventies . The skinhead gangs used to go Paki bashing .

What makes me angry is white people saying racist things and expecting you to agree with them just because you;re white.


----------



## kimthecat

Has this been discussed? The OK gesture is now used by white supremacists so now its racist thought it has been used in sign language .

So what happens now. Will it be dropped by Sign users . It used to be a popular sign but more people use the thumbs up .


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1285500746314784769


----------



## Elles

The ok sign is used in scuba diving.


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> Has this been discussed? The OK gesture is now used by white supremacists so now its racist thought it has been used in sign language .
> 
> So what happens now. Will it be dropped by Sign users . It used to be a popular sign but more people use the thumbs up .
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1285500746314784769


Wouldn't work when diving, the thumbs up already means something else.


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> The ok sign is used in scuba diving.


Cross posted!


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> Wouldn't work when diving, the thumbs up already means something else.


Thats interesting. What else does it mean ?


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> What else does it mean ?


Thumbs up means to surface/end the dive.


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> Thumbs up means to surface/end the dive.


Oh I see. i think the OK sign is used in the Forces on patrol but Ive only seen that in films.


----------



## Mum2Heidi

kimthecat said:


> This words a new one to me ! I like the sound of it and I hope its not rude.


Me too!
Thought it was a combination of confused and muddled


----------



## Happy Paws2

The way things are going, we'll be afraid to say anything just in case we it upset or offend someone.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> The way things are going, we'll be afraid to say anything just in case we it upset or offend someone.


Exactly. One of my sayings is When in doubt say nowt.


----------



## Nonnie

kimthecat said:


> Has this been discussed? The OK gesture is now used by white supremacists so now its racist thought it has been used in sign language .
> 
> So what happens now. Will it be dropped by Sign users . It used to be a popular sign but more people use the thumbs up .
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1285500746314784769


This has been the case for a good few years.

It wont be dropped by sign language users as, the same with many words, context is everything.


----------



## crystalwitch

O2.0 said:


> Thank you for trying to smooth things over
> That's not how the thread read to me at all. I most definitely got a vibe of "we used to use the word all the time and didn't mean anything by it" translation: since we didn't mean it to be offensive, it wasn't.
> 
> I hope it's okay if I indulge here for a minute.
> My original objection was to the claim that n****r didn't used to be offensive. It was always offensive. It has never had any other meaning. All I got in response to "n*****r has always been an offensive word" were examples of how it was used back in the day. I'm not sure how giving me more and more examples of it being used magically makes it not offensive, but whatever.
> 
> I clearly stated that some indifiduals might not have known:
> 
> This caveat was completely ignored and several members went on to continue to explain how the word wasn't offensive.
> At this point I was honestly starting to feel gaslit like I was losing my mind. No one was acknowledging that it was and is an offensive word, just more and more examples of it's use and then examples of other words that can be used as racial slurs. Which just adds to the gaslighting if you think about it because n****r has never had any other meaning like other words have.
> 
> At this point I'm finding myself repeating the same thing over and over without any acknowledgement of what I'm saying. Which just adds to the weird feeling that I'm actually losing my mind - effective gaslighting at its best.
> And some posts were downright aggressive. I still don't know what bloody minded means but I'm guessing it's not nice.
> 
> There were a couple complaints about replacing a plaque is rewriting history. Which is so ironic because of the total lack of historical understanding that RAF airmen from WW2 would most definitley have known n****r was a racial slur as beautifully explained by @Jesthar (thank you again).
> They knew and didn't care that it was offensive. That's the stark reality.
> 
> @Elles explains it well.
> Black soldiers were expected to hear the racial slurs, hear black dogs called n****r and just accept it. Live with it. And they did. Young children were indoctrinated in to white supremacy with cute nursery rhymes about catching escaped slaves. Black children were taught and chanted the same rhymes. It's that insidious.
> 
> They say history is written by the victors, but it's more than that.
> History is nothing but a collection of stories we tell ourselves about the past in a way that we can reconcile and make things make sense. We would do well to remember that.
> 
> There's a significant difference between saying we use to say this nursery rhyme, wow I didn't know then how offensive that was, but looking back it is kind of cringy isn't it? Versus just shrugging off ubiquitous use of a racial slur like it was meaningless.
> Not to blame or reprimand for the use of the word, but be open and acknowledge how utterly sick it is to teach a child a racial slur in a nursery rhyme about catching escaped slaves. And how f-ed up it is that no one thought about the meaning of the rhyme enough to object. Obviously at some point someone did as n****r was replaced with other less offensive terms.
> 
> As an aside, it's noteworthy that the program that runs this forum will star out f u c k if you type it out, also a s s h o l e but n****r does not. I'm doing it on my keyboard because it is that offensive that even I won't type it out.
> So if I want to call my dog an a s s h o l e the program won't let me, even though he most definitely can be one. But if I want to call him a n****r it will. He's a black dog, it's okay to call him that right?
> 
> In any case, I'm finding this thread too upsetting to be healthy which is why I stepped away and will likely continue to stay away. Please don't be offended if you quote or tag me and I don't respond.


We did used to sing the n--r word in Eeny Meeny. It was not meant to be offensive - we were 5/6 years old, used the rhyme to pick who was going to be 'it' in a game, and I was actually told several years later that the word was a corruption of the word *****, which was an acceptable term back then and was accurate. The problem is that a lot of words which were never offensive in their origins became so because of the way that they were used and the type of person using them.
One of the problem, imo, is the way that everything is being presented so one-sidedly. Why, I wonder, are the black people not demonstrating in the Arabian countries - they were the first to take slaves from Africa. Or in Portugal; it was the first of the European countries to go to the opposite side of Africa to buy slaves. The Africans themselves were the biggest help to the slave traders - they settled inter-tribal rivalries and disputes, by fighting each other then the victors would take the losers, tied to each other, down to the coast where they would be sold to the highest bidders. Africa's interior countries were largely unexplored until the 19th century when the European countries vied with each other in what became known as 'The Scramble for Africa' In America, contrary to common belief, all black people were not slaves. There are numerous accounts of black plantation owners, who owned many slaves - in fact, one black man Antony Johnson was a plantation owner in Virginia in the 17th century; he was also the owner of the largest amount of slaves in the colony. in another instance, a black woman who had been born free loved a black slave and had a son by him; the boy, Jacob Gasken, was also born free, because of his mother's status. As he grew up, they decided to buy Jacob's father, but shortly afterwards, when the father reprimanded his son for something, Jacob sold his father to a slave trader in New Orleans, then boasted to his friends that "that would teach that damn n-r to learn some manners"! Another similar case had a free black woman, Dilsey Pope, buy the slave that she loved; when they had a row, she sold him to a neighbouring plantation. When she calmed down and went to buy him back, the plantation owner refused to sell him to her. So much for 'BLM'!


----------



## crystalwitch

Also, why is it that any time the word 'slavery' is used, everyone seems to assume that it can only refer to the black people from Africa. Slavery is as old as humanity - and black people were amongst the earliest to enslave others. A really good book I read a couple of years ago was 'The Seal Woman's Gift' It is based on a true story, and is taken from the journals and memories of an Icelandic woman who, together with almost the entire population of her island, was kidnapped, taken to Algeria, and forced to live in slavery for over twelve years. The Egyptians used slave labour to help build the pyramids, the ancient Greeks and Romans enslaved those who were captured in war - Aesop, who wrote the Fables, was a slave. And I think it's fairly unlikely that when the Romans invaded Britain two thousand years ago, that they said "Oh would you mind if we came in and make you slaves"? I do find myself wondering why, if this country is so terrible and everyone is so racist, why are so many people desperate to get here by any means? On the news tonight, they reported that at least 17 boats, crammed full of people had been stopped, while trying to get into this country illegally. If so many black people feel that they are being discriminated against, and are treated unfairly, why, instead of demanding that we should change for them, are they still content to live here? It isn't a valid reason to say "I was born here, or I'm second or third generation". A lot of people who have been born and raised in this country and can trace their family history back several generations, have for whatever reasons, decided that they are not happy here any more, and have chosen to emigrate to other countries to make new lives for themselves and their families in places that they feel more comfortable and in tune with.


----------



## stuaz

crystalwitch said:


> Also, why is it that any time the word 'slavery' is used, everyone seems to assume that it can only refer to the black people from Africa. Slavery is as old as humanity - and black people were amongst the earliest to enslave others. A really good book I read a couple of years ago was 'The Seal Woman's Gift' It is based on a true story, and is taken from the journals and memories of an Icelandic woman who, together with almost the entire population of her island, was kidnapped, taken to Algeria, and forced to live in slavery for over twelve years. The Egyptians used slave labour to help build the pyramids, the ancient Greeks and Romans enslaved those who were captured in war - Aesop, who wrote the Fables, was a slave. And I think it's fairly unlikely that when the Romans invaded Britain two thousand years ago, that they said "Oh would you mind if we came in and make you slaves"? I do find myself wondering why, if this country is so terrible and everyone is so racist, why are so many people desperate to get here by any means? On the news tonight, they reported that at least 17 boats, crammed full of people had been stopped, while trying to get into this country illegally. If so many black people feel that they are being discriminated against, and are treated unfairly, why, instead of demanding that we should change for them, are they still content to live here? It isn't a valid reason to say "I was born here, or I'm second or third generation". A lot of people who have been born and raised in this country and can trace their family history back several generations, have for whatever reasons, decided that they are not happy here any more, and have chosen to emigrate to other countries to make new lives for themselves and their families in places that they feel more comfortable and in tune with.


Despite what the press might have you believe the English Channel isn't full of boats with migrants in them.

Racism isn't acceptable on any level and saying that people should essentially leave if they aren't happy with that is just downright disgusting.


----------



## ForestWomble

crystalwitch said:


> Also, why is it that any time the word 'slavery' is used, everyone seems to assume that it can only refer to the black people from Africa. Slavery is as old as humanity - and black people were amongst the earliest to enslave others. A really good book I read a couple of years ago was 'The Seal Woman's Gift' It is based on a true story, and is taken from the journals and memories of an Icelandic woman who, together with almost the entire population of her island, was kidnapped, taken to Algeria, and forced to live in slavery for over twelve years. *The Egyptians used slave labour to help build the pyramids*, the ancient Greeks and Romans enslaved those who were captured in war - Aesop, who wrote the Fables, was a slave. And I think it's fairly unlikely that when the Romans invaded Britain two thousand years ago, that they said "Oh would you mind if we came in and make you slaves"? I do find myself wondering why, if this country is so terrible and everyone is so racist, why are so many people desperate to get here by any means? On the news tonight, they reported that at least 17 boats, crammed full of people had been stopped, while trying to get into this country illegally. If so many black people feel that they are being discriminated against, and are treated unfairly, why, instead of demanding that we should change for them, are they still content to live here? It isn't a valid reason to say "I was born here, or I'm second or third generation". A lot of people who have been born and raised in this country and can trace their family history back several generations, have for whatever reasons, decided that they are not happy here any more, and have chosen to emigrate to other countries to make new lives for themselves and their families in places that they feel more comfortable and in tune with.


Just a little thing but I'd like to point out that the Egyptians didn't use slaves to build the pyramids.


----------



## LinznMilly

O2.0 said:


> Thank you for trying to smooth things over
> That's not how the thread read to me at all. I most definitely got a vibe of "we used to use the word all the time and didn't mean anything by it" translation: since we didn't mean it to be offensive, it wasn't.
> 
> I hope it's okay if I indulge here for a minute.
> My original objection was to the claim that n****r didn't used to be offensive. It was always offensive. It has never had any other meaning. All I got in response to "n*****r has always been an offensive word" were examples of how it was used back in the day. I'm not sure how giving me more and more examples of it being used magically makes it not offensive, but whatever.
> 
> I clearly stated that some indifiduals might not have known:
> 
> This caveat was completely ignored and several members went on to continue to explain how the word wasn't offensive.
> At this point I was honestly starting to feel gaslit like I was losing my mind. No one was acknowledging that it was and is an offensive word, just more and more examples of it's use and then examples of other words that can be used as racial slurs. Which just adds to the gaslighting if you think about it because n****r has never had any other meaning like other words have.
> 
> At this point I'm finding myself repeating the same thing over and over without any acknowledgement of what I'm saying. Which just adds to the weird feeling that I'm actually losing my mind - effective gaslighting at its best.
> And some posts were downright aggressive. I still don't know what bloody minded means but I'm guessing it's not nice.
> 
> There were a couple complaints about replacing a plaque is rewriting history. Which is so ironic because of the total lack of historical understanding that RAF airmen from WW2 would most definitley have known n****r was a racial slur as beautifully explained by @Jesthar (thank you again).
> They knew and didn't care that it was offensive. That's the stark reality.
> 
> @Elles explains it well.
> Black soldiers were expected to hear the racial slurs, hear black dogs called n****r and just accept it. Live with it. And they did. Young children were indoctrinated in to white supremacy with cute nursery rhymes about catching escaped slaves. Black children were taught and chanted the same rhymes. It's that insidious.
> 
> They say history is written by the victors, but it's more than that.
> History is nothing but a collection of stories we tell ourselves about the past in a way that we can reconcile and make things make sense. We would do well to remember that.
> 
> There's a significant difference between saying we use to say this nursery rhyme, wow I didn't know then how offensive that was, but looking back it is kind of cringy isn't it? Versus just shrugging off ubiquitous use of a racial slur like it was meaningless.
> Not to blame or reprimand for the use of the word, but be open and acknowledge how utterly sick it is to teach a child a racial slur in a nursery rhyme about catching escaped slaves. And how f-ed up it is that no one thought about the meaning of the rhyme enough to object. Obviously at some point someone did as n****r was replaced with other less offensive terms.
> 
> As an aside, it's noteworthy that the program that runs this forum will star out f u c k if you type it out, also a s s h o l e but n****r does not. I'm doing it on my keyboard because it is that offensive that even I won't type it out.
> So if I want to call my dog an a s s h o l e the program won't let me, even though he most definitely can be one. But if I want to call him a n****r it will. He's a black dog, it's okay to call him that right?
> 
> In any case, I'm finding this thread too upsetting to be healthy which is why I stepped away and will likely continue to stay away. Please don't be offended if you quote or tag me and I don't respond.


I know you said you're staying away from this thread, and I understand why. I'm sorry you feel like you've been/are being gaslit. I don't think that's the case. I think people on both sides are feeling attacked, and/or judged, and are feeling defensive.

I only came back to this thread yesterday. Before then, I was under the impression that it was still about British Government Vs the "common" people. It seems I have a lot of catching up to do, because from the little bits I've read, it's covered trans rights as well as racism.

Having read your posts, @O2.0, I agree, you've said the same thing over and over again, and I can understand the frustration you must feel. I can also, however, understand the frustration of those who see things differently to you. It appears, from some of the comments I've read, and the video posted back on page 59(?) That the whole issue of racism is complex. Certainly moreso than one offensive word.



kimthecat said:


> Pakis and w*g was used to be offensive in the Seventies . The skinhead gangs used to go Paki bashing .
> 
> What makes me angry is white people saying racist things and expecting you to agree with them just because you;re white.


With regards to the first paragraph, I wasn't aware of that, but then I wasn't born until 1983. Whether or not my parents knew of the connection, I don't know, but I innocently picked it up as a word they used to describe the corner shop. Once I knew it was offensive, I dropped it. Since learning about the origins of the Eeny Meeny rhyme, I won't be using that any more either.

As for the second, the closest I got to that was my aunt, sharing racist memes on FB back when the referendum (sorry!) result was announced. I pulled her up on it. She stood by what she's shared. I deleted her from FB.


----------



## LinznMilly

crystalwitch said:


> We did used to sing the n--r word in Eeny Meeny. It was not meant to be offensive - we were 5/6 years old, used the rhyme to pick who was going to be 'it' in a game, and I was actually told several years later that the word was a corruption of the word *****, which was an acceptable term back then and was accurate. The problem is that a lot of words which were never offensive in their origins became so because of the way that they were used and the type of person using them.


We can be offensive without meaning to be. Like I said, I was unintentionally offensive by using the term "Paki's" to describe the corner shop. Once I knew it was offensive, I stopped using it. Same with Eeny Meeny. Now I know the racist background, I won't be using it again.

@O2.0 has already said, numerous times, that the N word was always intended to be an insult, even though ***** wasn't.


----------



## MollySmith

LinznMilly said:


> I know you said you're staying away from this thread, and I understand why. I'm sorry you feel like you've been/are being gaslit. I don't think that's the case. I think people on both sides are feeling attacked, and/or judged, and are feeling defensive.
> 
> I only came back to this thread yesterday. Before then, I was under the impression that it was still about British Government Vs the "common" people. It seems I have a lot of catching up to do, because from the little bits I've read, it's covered trans rights as well as racism.
> 
> Having read your posts, @O2.0, I agree, you've said the same thing over and over again, and I can understand the frustration you must feel. I can also, however, understand the frustration of those who see things differently to you. It appears, from some of the comments I've read, and the video posted back on page 59(?) That the whole issue of racism is complex. Certainly moreso than one offensive word.
> 
> With regards to the first paragraph, I wasn't aware of that, but then I wasn't born until 1983. Whether or not my parents knew of the connection, I don't know, but I innocently picked it up as a word they used to describe the corner shop. Once I knew it was offensive, I dropped it. Since learning about the origins of the Eeny Meeny rhyme, I won't be using that any more either.
> 
> As for the second, the closest I got to that was my aunt, sharing racist memes on FB back when the referendum (sorry!) result was announced. I pulled her up on it. She stood by what she's shared. I deleted her from FB.


I have to say I feel the same as @O2.0 and kudos to her for trying as much as she has. For me there are only so many times I can say read, learn, listen without feeling I am nagging or going on ignore.

The more we do, the more we move on and get the context, and then comes the empathy.


----------



## MollySmith

MilleD said:


> It's never been used for public art as far as I know where I live. Parks and things, yes, so maybe if there is an installation in one of those I suppose....
> 
> It's not always guilt money! Sometimes a local authority needs funds if they need to build new roads or schools because of an increase in population density.
> 
> My LA often doesn't spend it. Then sometimes we have to give it back. Seems a bit odd to me.


Oh, perhaps it's different in your area. We've got some awful art, but anyway... probably a convo for another thread


----------



## kimthecat

O2.0 said:


> That's not how the thread read to me at all. I most definitely got a vibe of "we used to use the word all the time and didn't mean anything by it" translation: since we didn't mean it to be offensive, it wasn't.


I got the impression that people were trying to say they didn't realise it was offensive , that's not the same as "since we didn't mean it to be offensive, it wasn't".


----------



## Lurcherlad




----------



## Jonescat

A TED talk on the dangers of a single story
https://www.ted.com/talks/chimamanda_ngozi_adichie_the_danger_of_a_single_story


----------



## Calvine

MilleD said:


> I honestly don't think that people are trying to pretend that it wasn't an offensive term. I think they are saying that they weren't _aware _of the connotations years ago.
> 
> We used to sing eeny meeny miny mo. The word was in that. Didn't even consider at the time that it might have even meant anything, much less something offensive. Was just a way of choosing who was 'it'.


 When I was a kid, my grandmother would buy wool, and would quite openly ask for ''n*****r brown double knitting'' or the like. No-one looked shocked. It comes from the Latin word for black.


----------



## lullabydream

Interesting article on racism
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/904d9237-1b8a-49bd-a801-448942b8cb52


----------



## lullabydream

Calvine said:


> When I was a kid, my grandmother would buy wool, and would quite openly ask for ''n*****r brown double knitting'' or the like. No-one looked shocked. It comes from the Latin word for black.


No one is saying that the word ***** was ever wrong per se, but it's the word n***** that has always been an offensive term, its a deragatory form of the word. Always has been.. Just as mentioned on here that people here, know that Pakistani has been shortened to an offensive term and is wrong
At one point saying ***** was accepted, but never n******, its never been acceptable


----------



## Cleo38

LinznMilly said:


> We can be offensive without meaning to be. *Like I said, I was unintentionally offensive by using the term "Paki's" to describe the corner shop.* Once I knew it was offensive, I stopped using it. Same with Eeny Meeny. Now I know the racist background, I won't be using it again.
> 
> @O2.0 has already said, numerous times, that the N word was always intended to be an insult, even though ***** wasn't.


This was common place when I was growing up though. Although I wasn't allowed to say this most of my friends, their parents, etc referred to the local shop as the Paki shop or to the ****** (referring to the Chinese takeway). Although the terms were (& are) offensive I honestly don't believe most people thought they were being racist. Where I lived (council estate) it was very mixed & most people got on despite their cultural differences. It was a very different time & casual racism was almost 'normal' back then, not to excuse it but that's just how it was.


----------



## SusieRainbow

LinznMilly said:


> I know you said you're staying away from this thread, and I understand why. I'm sorry you feel like you've been/are being gaslit. I don't think that's the case. I think people on both sides are feeling attacked, and/or judged, and are feeling defensive.
> 
> I only came back to this thread yesterday. Before then, I was under the impression that it was still about British Government Vs the "common" people. It seems I have a lot of catching up to do, because from the little bits I've read, it's covered trans rights as well as racism.
> 
> Having read your posts, @O2.0, I agree, you've said the same thing over and over again, and I can understand the frustration you must feel. I can also, however, understand the frustration of those who see things differently to you. It appears, from some of the comments I've read, and the video posted back on page 59(?) That the whole issue of racism is complex. Certainly moreso than one offensive word.
> 
> With regards to the first paragraph, I wasn't aware of that, but then I wasn't born until 1983. Whether or not my parents knew of the connection, I don't know, but I innocently picked it up as a word they used to describe the corner shop. Once I knew it was offensive, I dropped it. Since learning about the origins of the Eeny Meeny rhyme, I won't be using that any more either.
> 
> As for the second, the closest I got to that was my aunt, sharing racist memes on FB back when the referendum (sorry!) result was announced. I pulled her up on it. She stood by what she's shared. I deleted her from FB.


This is what I was trying to convey, that you can be offensive with absolutely no intention . as in my daughters innocent 'golly' remark and the nursery rhyme. And as @LinznMilly says, once made aware of the connotations stop using the terms. 
I also am sorry that this thread has been so hurtful to you @O2.0 but allow me to assure you that I had no intention of trivialising racial insults in my posts but did find the comment about beng 'deliberately dense' pretty offensive.


----------



## crystalwitch

ForestWomble said:


> Just a little thing but I'd like to point out that the Egyptians didn't use slaves to build the pyramids.


Actually, they did. Not for the planning or calculations, but for the hard, physical stone shifting; it took a long time and several generations. I read a book when I was a teenager, that told the story of one family of slaves. The man who told it spoke of his father and of his son also being involved in the building work. It was a long time ago, and I can't remember who the author was, but the family were definitely slaves.


----------



## kimthecat

lullabydream said:


> Interesting article on racism
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/904d9237-1b8a-49bd-a801-448942b8cb52


Gaslighting sounds like CBT .


----------



## crystalwitch

stuaz said:


> Despite what the press might have you believe the English Channel isn't full of boats with migrants in them.
> 
> Racism isn't acceptable on any level and saying that people should essentially leave if they aren't happy with that is just downright disgusting.


I'm not basing anything on what the press says - one of my daughters works for the Border Force Agency as a dog handler, and she spends half her time in France, checking cars and lorries for stowaways. If anything, the press only report a fraction of the amount of would be immigrants.

I agree that racism is not acceptable - neither is the denial of free speech. And if I was unhappy in a country, then I would be looking to go somewhere else. Common sense, really. There's an old saying - 'If you can't remove a nuisance, remove from it' Thousands of British citizens have emigrated to Australia, New Zealand, Canada and various other countries, in search of a better life, over the last 30+ years - this includes a lot of people who initially emigrated here from Commonwealth countries - an Indian friend of mine who was brought to the UK as a child, in the 1960s, said that his two sisters went to Canada about 10 years ago because "there were too many immigrants here"!

I do not understand why someone seeks to come into a white Christian country, escaping from their own countries of origin and the rules that they are forced to abide by, then promptly set about trying to turn this country into a copy of what they've left! International law states that refugees and asylum seekers must ask for help in the first safe country they come to - by that ruling, no-one should be able to get to the UK as they must pass through other European countries to get here. Having said that, if someone is granted residency and British citizenship, and is prepared to live and work here peacefully, then they are welcome. If I chose to live in another country, and was granted citizenship, I would expect to follow that country's laws and traditions without demonstrating at what I thought was unfair. No matter how many new laws are brought in, you will always get the idiots who decide to indulge in name calling and unfair discrimination. This has always been the case. Many years ago, I was turned down for a job I had applied for and later discovered that it was because I wasn't a blonde - whether it is skin colour, or hair colour, it is still insulting and stupid.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Which ever country you move to you should live by their laws and learn to speak the language.


----------



## lullabydream

kimthecat said:


> Gaslighting sounds like CBT .


It sounds very much to me that the acceptance there is that its OK because they probably do not know better, it is normal... 
It's actually what @O2.0 was saying all along how we say different times etc..

I remember my sister who is nearly 50 saying Paki shop when she was in secondary school. I probably didn't know the implications or what she was talking about. I don't live in area where there is a huge ethnic diversity but I remember my my mum saying no don't use that word it's so wrong. I don't expect.

In fact, having a sister law from Pakistan and a niece and nephew who are mixed race. Its actually weird how acceptable it is to us, me included to type the word P*** but I don't n*****. Am not the only one, and both are derogatory. Both have come from words, originally and mean some origin or other but we seem to find using a slur for want of a better word easier to type than others.

The whole thread about BLM is about recognising our own bias, see that's what I am doing. This is we should be doing.

In the past, people accepted racism as oh well everyone said this, everyone said that but they were friends with those of different cultures. People will always have bias, in some way or other, it's the recognition of it, the moving on and learning from it that matters. Accepting things were wrong with things back then, even though they were normal.


----------



## rona

Calvine said:


> When I was a kid, my grandmother would buy wool, and would quite openly ask for ''n*****r brown double knitting'' or the like. No-one looked shocked. It comes from the Latin word for black.


It does,
https://www.rhs.org.uk/Plants/details?plantid=947
https://www.rhs.org.uk/Plants/223087/Cotoneaster-niger-var-lactiflorus/Details
https://www.rhs.org.uk/Plants/18799/i-Verbascum-nigrum-i/Details

You can get a Niger plant that is yellow and produces Niger seed which has had it's spelling changed to Nyjer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_nigger_in_proper_names
A shade of dark brown used to be known as "n****r brown" or simply "n****r" other colors were also prefixed with the word. Usage as a color word continued for some time after it was no longer acceptable about people. _N****r brown_ commonly identified a colour in the clothing industry and advertising of the early 20th century.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4954799/

"Use of the word _n****r_ is very often castigated as slurring the referent, but this ignores the context of use. For many people the word itself is a slur no matter what the context, and such people argue for its eradication from the English language. Eradicationists confuse the form of the word with its frequent use as a slur that discredits, slights, smears, stains, besmirches people of black African descent"

"In other words, the use of _n****r_ should only be condemned when the speaker/writer is recognized to have the perlocutionary intention to slur. Although a slur eventuates as a perlocutionary effect, and dysphemistic effects are properly castigated, what is more (morally) abhorrent is the intention to achieve such an effect. The speaker/writer's intention can only be surmised from κ, the utterance context. Judging the perlocutionary effect of ε in υ as a slur is also a matter of surmise, although it is normally identifiable by the target as the sense of insult. So, both perlocutionary intention and, to a lesser degree, perlocutionary effect are open to controversy resulting from differing interpretations of the same set of data.


----------



## stuaz

crystalwitch said:


> I'm not basing anything on what the press says - one of my daughters works for the Border Force Agency as a dog handler, and she spends half her time in France, checking cars and lorries for stowaways. If anything, the press only report a fraction of the amount of would be immigrants.
> 
> I agree that racism is not acceptable - neither is the denial of free speech. And if I was unhappy in a country, then I would be looking to go somewhere else. Common sense, really. There's an old saying - 'If you can't remove a nuisance, remove from it' Thousands of British citizens have emigrated to Australia, New Zealand, Canada and various other countries, in search of a better life, over the last 30+ years - this includes a lot of people who initially emigrated here from Commonwealth countries - an Indian friend of mine who was brought to the UK as a child, in the 1960s, said that his two sisters went to Canada about 10 years ago because "there were too many immigrants here"!
> 
> I do not understand why someone seeks to come into a white Christian country, escaping from their own countries of origin and the rules that they are forced to abide by, then promptly set about trying to turn this country into a copy of what they've left! International law states that refugees and asylum seekers must ask for help in the first safe country they come to - by that ruling, no-one should be able to get to the UK as they must pass through other European countries to get here. Having said that, if someone is granted residency and British citizenship, and is prepared to live and work here peacefully, then they are welcome. If I chose to live in another country, and was granted citizenship, I would expect to follow that country's laws and traditions without demonstrating at what I thought was unfair. No matter how many new laws are brought in, you will always get the idiots who decide to indulge in name calling and unfair discrimination. This has always been the case. Many years ago, I was turned down for a job I had applied for and later discovered that it was because I wasn't a blonde - whether it is skin colour, or hair colour, it is still insulting and stupid.


Someone coming to this country, from example, Africa who has black skin, should not be judged solely on the color of there skin. If they are judged in that way, it is discrimination? Yes? So why shouldn't that person "demonstrate" or shout that it's a bad thing? Or should just accept that and go back to Africa?

I don't want to live in a country where people are judged based n skin color, should I leave? Or should I instead standup for those that maybe can't, to try and create a fairer country?


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> should only be condemned when the speaker/writer is recognized to have the perlocutionary intention to slur.


When she said it, she did not have a picture in her mind of a black person whom she was wanting to abuse. When she was a child, she had a black dog with the same name. She said it like she would say ''navy blue'' where, then again, she would not be thinking of sailors or boats.


----------



## Elles

stuaz said:


> Someone coming to this country, from example, Africa who has black skin, should not be judged solely on the color of there skin. If they are judged in that way, it is discrimination? Yes? So why shouldn't that person "demonstrate" or shout that it's a bad thing? Or should just accept that and go back to Africa?
> 
> I don't want to live in a country where people are judged based n skin color, should I leave? Or should I instead standup for those that maybe can't, to try and create a fairer country?


Depends on what people want. If people coming from China want Britain to become communist and run by their leader, or Russians want it to be more like Russia and people start demonstrating to support them and get their way, I'm outta here. I'm also anti religion, so if any religion is forced on us, I'm on the next boat to anywhere free I can get to and who'll have me. I also wouldn't move to a country who has politics I don't agree with, like North Korea, or Iran for example and try to change them to suit me. I'd expect short shrift if I did.


----------



## Cleo38

lullabydream said:


> It sounds very much to me that the acceptance there is that its OK because they probably do not know better, it is normal...
> It's actually what @O2.0 was saying all along how we say different times etc..
> 
> I remember my sister who is nearly 50 saying Paki shop when she was in secondary school. I probably didn't know the implications or what she was talking about. I don't live in area where there is a huge ethnic diversity but I remember my my mum saying no don't use that word it's so wrong. I don't expect.
> 
> In fact, having a sister law from Pakistan and a niece and nephew who are mixed race. Its actually weird how acceptable it is to us, me included to type the word P*** but I don't n*****. Am not the only one, and both are derogatory. Both have come from words, originally and mean some origin or other but we seem to find using a slur for want of a better word easier to type than others.
> 
> The whole thread about BLM is about recognising our own bias, see that's what I am doing. This is we should be doing.
> 
> In the past, people accepted racism as oh well everyone said this, everyone said that but they were friends with those of different cultures. People will always have bias, in some way or other, it's the recognition of it, the moving on and learning from it that matters. Accepting things were wrong with things back then, even though they were normal.


I wonder though if people are 'less racist' now though or just use the correct language. We were discussing this at my dog club ages ago (we talk about loads of things & it's so interesting as we all have very different opinions!), how some people can use racist language but maybe aren't necessarily racists & have a diverse group of friends yet some use all the correct language yet surround themselves with other white people … not saying it has to be one or the other but again it's not really easy to define or to label as such.

Recognising bias is difficult & am sure many of us don't think we treat people differently ….I would disagree. I think we all have biases & maybe make many assumptions about people based on their colour, age, gender, etc which I suppose is normal….. but it's being aware of this & maybe questioning ourselves a bit ore at times.


----------



## lullabydream

Cleo38 said:


> I wonder though if people are 'less racist' now though or just use the correct language. We were discussing this at my dog club ages ago (we talk about loads of things & it's so interesting as we all have very different opinions!), how some people can use racist language but maybe aren't necessarily racists & have a diverse group of friends yet some use all the correct language yet surround themselves with other white people … not saying it has to be one or the other but again it's not really easy to define or to label as such.
> 
> Recognising bias is difficult & am sure many of us don't think we treat people differently ….I would disagree. I think we all have biases & maybe make many assumptions about people based on their colour, age, gender, etc which I suppose is normal….. but it's being aware of this & maybe questioning ourselves a bit ore at times.


See I don't know about less racist.. I know my friend who worked in one of the local pubs and often got told by people that he was liked by people who don't normally like black people. There is definitely still descrimination there, and race is probably a huge one still.

It's very hard to determine I guess by certain language, the n word can be rife in music of black origin especially rap music. So I can see why younger people may use it to some extent. Although I would have thought with most people not using it in polite conversation that it's wrong.

If no one had any bias, then we wouldn't have stereotypes. There is usually a small pinch of truth in them. Even observational comedy uses bias and stereotypes. Most people have laughed at 'themselves' through a comedian.

I think your last sentence says it all, that's really what BLM is all about questioning ourselves that bit more. Although it's nice to shout it from the rooftops, join in the protests when really educated one's could have helped the Stephen Lawrence charity as that's been there campaigning for exactly the same thing in the UK for years. If we all think, question, acknowledge and talk to others. Progress can be made. It amazed me that no one had spoken to others of different races before, or heard stories before.


----------



## rona

Cleo38 said:


> I wonder though if people are 'less racist' now though or just use the correct language.


The whole point is that we weren't racist. I don't know why this is so hard for some to understand


----------



## LinznMilly

Jonescat said:


> A TED talk on the dangers of a single story
> https://www.ted.com/talks/chimamanda_ngozi_adichie_the_danger_of_a_single_story


Great talk. Very balanced and informative. As a writer myself, it made me realise that one of my female protagonist's family have their own "one story", that becomes discredited in the end. It's also made me realise that there are areas of my own reality that are not represented in literature. And I'm a white British woman.



lullabydream said:


> Interesting article on racism
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/904d9237-1b8a-49bd-a801-448942b8cb52


Let's forget about race or ethnicity here. Let's see what happens with these three scenarios:

1). "Go back to your own country!"

2). 
"Why are you so loud?"
"That's just the way I am."
"You're being aggressive!"

3). A woman is walking down the street, when a man turns the corner ahead of her. She crosses the road. 
(This was mentioned by one of the panel in the recent televised discussion about Stephen Lawrence and has anything changed since his death. Allegedly a white woman crossed the street to avoid a black man, the implication, therefore, was that she was racist).

Number 1 is out and out racism. But without context, without adding any mention of race, it's not so clear cut as to what's going on in #2 and #3, is it? I've been told to keep it down, and that I was too loud before. I didn't realise I was. And I've crossed the street plenty of times without giving anyone around me a second thought, whether or not they've just turned the corner, heading in my direction or walking away from me. If I see skin tone or colour at all, it doesn't register because it's not important - it has no effect on whether or not I cross the road.

My point is, without context, some cases of racial gaslighting could be argued as simply one person playing devil's advocate. There have been plenty of times when I've told my parents something, something that I took to be an insult, or something intending to offend me, only for them to say "Don't you think it could be this, this or this, though?"

Them doing that has given me the ability to take a step back and view the same scenario in another light. It's strengthened me as a person, and stopped me from taking things personally when it probably wasn't meant that way.

And you know what, I'm afraid to hit the "Post Reply" button on this post, in case someone accuses me of racism. .


----------



## kimthecat

lullabydream said:


> It sounds very much to me that the acceptance there is that its OK because they probably do not know better, it is normal...


You got that from the link you gave? , I thought that was good advice at the bottom and can see that some comments made to interviewees weren't appropriate to say the least but I didnt agree with all of the their comments .



LinznMilly said:


> Great talk. Very balanced and informative. As a writer myself, it made me realise that one of my female protagonist's family have their own "one story", that becomes discredited in the end. It's also made me realise that there are areas of my own reality that are not represented in literature. And I'm a white British woman.
> 
> Let's forget about race or ethnicity here. Let's see what happens with these three scenarios:
> 
> 1). "Go back to your own country!"
> 
> 2).
> "Why are you so loud?"
> "That's just the way I am."
> "You're being aggressive!"
> 
> 3). A woman is walking down the street, when a man turns the corner ahead of her. She crosses the road.
> (This was mentioned by one of the panel in the recent televised discussion about Stephen Lawrence and has anything changed since his death. Allegedly a white woman crossed the street to avoid a black man, the implication, therefore, was that she was racist).
> 
> Number 1 is out and out racism. But without context, without adding any mention of race, it's not so clear cut as to what's going on in #2 and #3, is it? I've been told to keep it down, and that I was too loud before. I didn't realise I was. And I've crossed the street plenty of times without giving anyone around me a second thought, whether or not they've just turned the corner, heading in my direction or walking away from me. If I see skin tone or colour at all, it doesn't register because it's not important - it has no effect on whether or not I cross the road.
> 
> My point is, without context, some cases of racial gaslighting could be argued as simply one person playing devil's advocate. There have been plenty of times when I've told my parents something, something that I took to be an insult, or something intending to offend me, only for them to say "Don't you think it could be this, this or this, though?"
> 
> Them doing that has given me the ability to take a step back and view the same scenario in another light. It's strengthened me as a person, and stopped me from taking things personally when it probably wasn't meant that way.
> 
> And you know what, I'm afraid to hit the "Post Reply" button on this post, in case someone accuses me of racism. .


You know what . i have just actually written a reply to Lullabydream about this ( above) and then deleted it most of it because I felt the same thing.

So Ive added a bit more here

There is a lot of unfairness to Bame people but I can also tell of incidences where they have thought it was because they were black and it wasnt , or made false accusations , or been racist to white people . These get dismissed because we're not the minority.


----------



## Cleo38

rona said:


> The whole point is that we weren't racist. I don't know why this is so hard for some to understand


Not everyone was but then not everyone wasn't …. same as now. I was just saying that although language had changed maybe some attitudes hadn't.

Where I lived as I said there were many different people but there was also a very obvious NF presence in the area. Turned out it was a very small group but there were lots of stickers, graffiti, etc which must have been scary for some people


----------



## kimthecat

Cleo38 said:


> Not everyone was but then not everyone wasn't …. same as now. I was just saying that although language had changed maybe some attitudes hadn't.
> 
> Where I lived as I said there were many different people but there was also a very obvious NF presence in the area. Turned out it was a very small group but there were lots of stickers, graffiti, etc which must have been scary for some people


They are scary , those types scare me and it must be so much more frightening for Bame.


----------



## rona

Cleo38 said:


> Not everyone was but then not everyone wasn't …. same as now. I was just saying that although language had changed maybe some attitudes hadn't.
> 
> Where I lived as I said there were many different people but there was also a very obvious NF presence in the area. Turned out it was a very small group but there were lots of stickers, graffiti, etc which must have been scary for some people


I know two people who are racist. One is my sister. She didn't used to be racist until she became a recluse and lived life through her computer. Far far too much power goes through these screens. Stops people thinking for themselves


----------



## kimthecat

Dont agree with this - 
Speaking on the Black Lives Matter protests, Diana says, "we're hearing comments like, 'if you protested more peacefully, more people would listen.' This comment is essentially blaming the victim based on race."

Its sound advice to protest peacefully . This applies to any demonstrate , no one is saying don't , it is everyone's right and justified in this case but non peaceful protest puts people off and yes , more people _would_ listen. Also , not all the protesters were victims anyway , they were white.


----------



## stuaz

Elles said:


> Depends on what people want. If people coming from China want Britain to become communist and run by their leader, or Russians want it to be more like Russia and people start demonstrating to support them and get their way, I'm outta here. I'm also anti religion, so if any religion is forced on us, I'm on the next boat to anywhere free I can get to and who'll have me. I also wouldn't move to a country who has politics I don't agree with, like North Korea, or Iran for example and try to change them to suit me. I'd expect short shrift if I did.


Totally agree although I was referring more to people being prejudiced because of skin color, sex, who they are as a person, or not having a voice because they are not "from this country", etc, as opposed to an ideology like communism or religion being forced upon people, which is a big no no.


----------



## Cleo38

rona said:


> I know two people who are racist. One is my sister. She didn't used to be racist until she became a recluse and lived life through her computer. Far far too much power goes through these screens. Stops people thinking for themselves


I think that's simplifying a complex issue. I don't disagree that some people are more overtly racist than others but then I don't think it's easy to simply define someone as racist if that makes sense. I think there are many people who have biases or prejudices that they just aren't aware of & maybe we should all check ourselves occasionally to see if we do. It's like with anything I suppose we can become set in our ways, make unfair assumptions without realising, it's sort of to be expected. There was a series of tests on a University (Stamford?) page a while go (am sure someone posted the link here) & it was really interesting to do. Mine showed I did have a bias against overweight people. I didn't think I had at all but then looking at my answers (you had to answer very quickly), I realised that maybe I did. Not something I would have liked to admit to & I was a bit overweight myself at that time so hardly one to be critical but it was interesting to question myself & why did I think like that.


----------



## kimthecat

Cleo38 said:


> I think that's simplifying a complex issue. I don't disagree that some people are more overtly racist than others but then I don't think it's easy to simply define someone as racist if that makes sense. I think there are many people who have biases or prejudices that they just aren't aware of & maybe we should all check ourselves occasionally to see if we do. It's like with anything I suppose we can become set in our ways, make unfair assumptions without realising, it's sort of to be expected. There was a series of tests on a University (Stamford?) page a while go (am sure someone posted the link here) & it was really interesting to do. Mine showed I did have a bias against overweight people. I didn't think I had at all but then looking at my answers (you had to answer very quickly), I realised that maybe I did. Not something I would have liked to admit to & I was a bit overweight myself at that time so hardly one to be critical but it was interesting to question myself & why did I think like that.


Good points. I wonder if the link is still there. Its easy to make assumptions about anyone .

Talking of Stanford , i found this latest study. 
https://cepa.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/wp20-01-v062020.pdf
Collective Racial Bias and the Black-White Test Score Gap

Im going to read it later.


----------



## rona

Cleo38 said:


> think that's simplifying a complex issue. I don't disagree that some people are more overtly racist than others but then I don't think it's easy to simply define someone as racist if that makes sense. I think there are many people who have biases or prejudices that they just aren't aware of & maybe we should all check ourselves occasionally to see if we do


I've been accused of being racist because I feel uncomfortable when I don't understand what people are saying or even because I said I couldn't understand the Asian accent. It's ridiculous, I know that's not the case because if anyone speaks English I don't even really notice colour above character, of course I notice but it makes no difference.
I also feel uncomfortable and out of my depth with the deaf lady down the road, disabled people that have speech impediments or small children that haven't learnt to talk properly yet.


----------



## crystalwitch

stuaz said:


> Someone coming to this country, from example, Africa who has black skin, should not be judged solely on the color of there skin. If they are judged in that way, it is discrimination? Yes? So why shouldn't that person "demonstrate" or shout that it's a bad thing? Or should just accept that and go back to Africa?
> 
> I don't want to live in a country where people are judged based n skin color, should I leave? Or should I instead standup for those that maybe can't, to try and create a fairer country?


Neither do I think anyone should be judged on the colour of their skin, hair, eyes, etc. But wherever you live, in whatever country, no amount of legislation will stop some people being prejudiced against anyone who is 'different'. My point was that if you choose to live somewhere, then you have to accept that everyone will not welcome you with open arms. My uncle married a woman from Yorkshire back in 1951, and went to live there near her family - 20 years later, he was still referred to as 'that bloody newcomer' and regarded with suspicion. And he was a white man. In all honesty, I think most people - of all colours and origins - really just want to live in peace and couldn't give a damn what colour their neighbours are. When I was a little girl, we used to come to London regularly to visit my grandparents - quite often I, my brother and a couple of cousins would be taken round London, and at Speakers' Corner near Hyde Park, you would hear the most preposterous things being said. People generally took little or no notice, and went about their business. Now everyone has to take every word out and examine it before speaking, in case it's offensive. It used to be common to hear someone say "You can say what you like, mate; it's a free country" Not any more though. I think it's dangerous - even if you stop people saying things, you can't stop them thinking and the more they are forced to bottle their feelings up, the more likely they are to find another way to release those feelings. However much a word upsets or offends someone, it doesn't do the damage that a knife or gun does. And what about the other way round? I have often been called a 'white bitch' or 'a f******g honky' I'm still not sure what a 'honky' is, just that it is obviously not a compliment, by the way that it is said.


----------



## crystalwitch

rona said:


> I've been accused of being racist because I feel uncomfortable when I don't understand what people are saying or even because I said I couldn't understand the Asian accent. It's ridiculous, I know that's not the case because if anyone speaks English I don't even really notice colour above character, of course I notice but it makes no difference.
> I also feel uncomfortable and out of my depth with the deaf lady down the road, disabled people that have speech impediments or small children that haven't learnt to talk properly yet.


Exactly, most people, whatever their colour, or nationality, do tend to feel less comfortable with people who are different to them. Doesn't make them bad people, or racist/sexist/ageist/etc


----------



## lullabydream

LinznMilly said:


> Great talk. Very balanced and informative. As a writer myself, it made me realise that one of my female protagonist's family have their own "one story", that becomes discredited in the end. It's also made me realise that there are areas of my own reality that are not represented in literature. And I'm a white British woman.
> 
> Let's forget about race or ethnicity here. Let's see what happens with these three scenarios:
> 
> 1). "Go back to your own country!"
> 
> 2).
> "Why are you so loud?"
> "That's just the way I am."
> "You're being aggressive!"
> 
> 3). A woman is walking down the street, when a man turns the corner ahead of her. She crosses the road.
> (This was mentioned by one of the panel in the recent televised discussion about Stephen Lawrence and has anything changed since his death. Allegedly a white woman crossed the street to avoid a black man, the implication, therefore, was that she was racist).
> 
> Number 1 is out and out racism. But without context, without adding any mention of race, it's not so clear cut as to what's going on in #2 and #3, is it? I've been told to keep it down, and that I was too loud before. I didn't realise I was. And I've crossed the street plenty of times without giving anyone around me a second thought, whether or not they've just turned the corner, heading in my direction or walking away from me. If I see skin tone or colour at all, it doesn't register because it's not important - it has no effect on whether or not I cross the road.
> 
> My point is, without context, some cases of racial gaslighting could be argued as simply one person playing devil's advocate. There have been plenty of times when I've told my parents something, something that I took to be an insult, or something intending to offend me, only for them to say "Don't you think it could be this, this or this, though?"
> 
> Them doing that has given me the ability to take a step back and view the same scenario in another light. It's strengthened me as a person, and stopped me from taking things personally when it probably wasn't meant that way.
> 
> And you know what, I'm afraid to hit the "Post Reply" button on this post, in case someone accuses me of racism. .


Have you asked a person of colour how many times they have been accused of the same thing.. It's because of their race? It happens a lot, more than you think, and what we have seen in jest in comedy 'it's because I am black innit' isn't far from the truth.

If in though scenarios things aren't about race, because hey you cross over the road then honestly there is something wrong with the 'claimaint' walking round with a chip on their shoulder. Many people are like that but also like many people in society we have to complain or blame.


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## SusieRainbow

rona said:


> I've been accused of being racist because I feel uncomfortable when I don't understand what people are saying or even because I said I couldn't understand the Asian accent. It's ridiculous, I know that's not the case because if anyone speaks English I don't even really notice colour above character, of course I notice but it makes no difference.
> I also feel uncomfortable and out of my depth with the deaf lady down the road, disabled people that have speech impediments or small children that haven't learnt to talk properly yet.


I agree with this. Having a slight hearing loss I find some accents hard to understand and it's very stressful. The worst place for this is the doctors which is mainly run with over-seas locums , it makes me very anxious.


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## LinznMilly

lullabydream said:


> Have you asked a person of colour how many times they have been accused of the same thing.. It's because of their race? It happens a lot, more than you think, and what we have seen in jest in comedy 'it's because I am black innit' isn't far from the truth.
> 
> If in though scenarios things aren't about race, because hey you cross over the road then honestly there is something wrong with the 'claimaint' walking round with a chip on their shoulder. Many people are like that but also like many people in society we have to complain or blame.


I don't understand what you mean by this? How many times they've been accused of _what_? Nobody's accusing them of anything that I can tell.

I'm not saying that there's anything "wrong" with the "claimant" - it could well be that the woman crossing the road is indeed doing so to to avoid a person of colour, and therefore, she might have been racist. I wasn't there, I didn't see what happened, so I don't know whether or not he's justified in calling her racist. He could be, but he might not be. Sometimes people are - _just_ crossing the road.


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## kimthecat

I used to be hearing but it started to disappear when i was in my teens and now I really depend on my super duper HAs .Without them I can only hear low noises like lorries. Im used to Asian accents so dont generally have problems but some of the Scots accents , Blimey! 
I usually tell people as soon as I meet that Im deaf , and say can you face me or to speak a bit louder but dont shout !
I think if you are in a minority for whatever reason , it is easy to think its Is it because Im .... I think this myself sometimes.

@LinznMilly I can give an example of Its not what you think it is. We tend to get families coming and going and a while back we had a new white family up the road and I didnt hear them say hello and they thought I had ignored them and I was a snob . Their kids trashed my wing mirrors! Later on a new Asian family and I didnt hear them say hello either . They later told another family that I didnt like Asians because I ignored them . Fortunately they didnt trash my car !


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## ForestWomble

rona said:


> I've been accused of being racist because I feel uncomfortable when I don't understand what people are saying or even because I said I couldn't understand the Asian accent. It's ridiculous, I know that's not the case because if anyone speaks English I don't even really notice colour above character, of course I notice but it makes no difference.
> I also feel uncomfortable and out of my depth with the deaf lady down the road, disabled people that have speech impediments or small children that haven't learnt to talk properly yet.





SusieRainbow said:


> I agree with this. Having a slight hearing loss I find some accents hard to understand and it's very stressful. The worst place for this is the doctors which is mainly run with over-seas locums , it makes me very anxious.


I agree too. I have reverse slope conductive binaural loss, (basically my hearing is awful! :Hilarious), which means I am almost completely deaf when it comes to low pitched sounds, so I really struggle with people with low pitched voices and any strong accent that I'm not used to, I find it so stressful and have had panic attacks due to just not being able to understand. I've been shouted at and called racist by people before now because of it


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## Calvine

SusieRainbow said:


> I agree with this. Having a slight hearing loss I find some accents hard to understand and it's very stressful. The worst place for this is the doctors which is mainly run with over-seas locums , it makes me very anxious.


GP telephone appointments can be very difficult for this reason. They only have a few minutes to talk to you so they don't have time to repeat anything and sometimes at the end you have little clue what they were saying.


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## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> GP telephone appointments can be very difficult for this reason. They only have a few minutes to talk to you so they don't have time to repeat anything and sometimes at the end you have little clue what they were saying.


I've had a few GP and Hospital appointments over the phone over the last couple of months and they have been OK, never felt hurried Doctors took their time to explain anything I didn't understand and listened to everything I was saying.


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## Pawscrossed

Throwing this in here as it's well worth a listen.

https://www.thefullstoppod.com/listen/nh05o70yewkwvvj1vlgc5txd6pdk10-u


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## Pawscrossed

And very sad news today, Paulette Wilson has died.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jul/23/windrush-campaigner-paulette-wilson-dies-aged-64


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## Cleo38

ForestWomble said:


> I agree too. I have reverse slope conductive binaural loss, (basically my hearing is awful! :Hilarious), which means I am almost completely deaf when it comes to low pitched sounds, so I really struggle with people with low pitched voices and any strong accent that I'm not used to, I find it so stressful and have had panic attacks due to just not being able to understand. I've been shouted at and called racist by people before now because of it


I have similar in my right ear. I find it difficult to hear men (usually) with certain low tone accents. I also find it difficult to concentrate if I'm in a meeting with lot of background noise & multiple people talking … but then I also use it as an excuse when I 've simply got bored & stopped listening!


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## ForestWomble

Cleo38 said:


> I have similar in my right ear. I find it difficult to hear men (usually) with certain low tone accents. I also find it difficult to concentrate if I'm in a meeting with lot of background noise & multiple people talking … but then I also use it as an excuse when I 've simply got bored & stopped listening!


Yes, background noise is awful for me, I can't concentrate at all and find I can only read when its quiet for example, certainly can't focus on a single voice. 
LOL useful excuse.


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## O2.0

If you have not had a chance to listen to Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez respond to a fellow lawmaker who called her a f*cking bitch in front of reporters and then denied it, I urge you to do so.






It ties in with what I was saying about using the use of the racial slur n****r. AOC explains so eloquently that she was not hurt or offended by his remarks. She has worked a blue collar job as a waitress and bartender, ridden the subway in New York and essentially lived life as a woman. Verbal assaults against women is nothing new - and that is the problem. That calling a woman a f*cking bitch is so normalized that a US politician thought nothing of doing it in front of reporters on the steps of the Capitol IS the problem.

In the same way, that RAF airmen saw nothing wrong with calling their black dog n****r was and IS a problem. Yes, many people used the term, and yes, many of those people meant nothing by it, but that a racial slur was part of normalized language itself is a problem.

I fully expect the protests now of those crying "we can't say anything for fear of offending" to which I reply that the word bitch directed at a woman is meant to be offensive and has always been meant to be offensive. Even if women use it. Even if some women (usually younger generation) now use bitch to refer to each other in a friendly way, attempting to claim the slur back. Same way some black people (usually younger generation) now use n****r to refer to each other in a friendly way. It's still an offensive slur. Even when someone who's not racist uses it.

ETA for clarity, this is the "apology" AOC was responding to:


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## crystalwitch

O2.0 said:


> If you have not had a chance to listen to Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez respond to a fellow lawmaker who called her a f*cking bitch in front of reporters and then denied it, I urge you to do so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It ties in with what I was saying about using the use of the racial slur n****r. AOC explains so eloquently that she was not hurt or offended by his remarks. She has worked a blue collar job as a waitress and bartender, ridden the subway in New York and essentially lived life as a woman. Verbal assaults against women is nothing new - and that is the problem. That calling a woman a f*cking bitch is so normalized that a US politician thought nothing of doing it in front of reporters on the steps of the Capitol IS the problem.
> 
> In the same way, that RAF airmen saw nothing wrong with calling their black dog n****r was and IS a problem. Yes, many people used the term, and yes, many of those people meant nothing by it, but that a racial slur was part of normalized language itself is a problem.
> 
> I fully expect the protests now of those crying "we can't say anything for fear of offending" to which I reply that the word bitch directed at a woman is meant to be offensive and has always been meant to be offensive. Even if women use it. Even if some women (usually younger generation) now use bitch to refer to each other in a friendly way, attempting to claim the slur back. Same way some black people (usually younger generation) now use n****r to refer to each other in a friendly way. It's still an offensive slur. Even when someone who's not racist uses it.
> 
> ETA for clarity, this is the "apology" AOC was responding to:


I agree that 'bitch' is an unnecessary and offensive term when referring to another person, and is totally unnecessary. When my daughters were at school, several of the girls there who were fed up with the boys shouting it at them came up with this reply: "A bitch is a female dog, a dog is one of God's creatures, all of God's creatures are beautiful, so thanks for the compliment."


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## kimthecat

ForestWomble said:


> I agree too. I have reverse slope conductive binaural loss, (basically my hearing is awful! :Hilarious), which means I am almost completely deaf when it comes to low pitched sounds, so I really struggle with people with low pitched voices and any strong accent that I'm not used to, I find it so stressful and have had panic attacks due to just not being able to understand. I've been shouted at and called racist by people before now because of it


 Im sorry to hear this. Í have been called names , cloth ears , deaf dog etc , also people playing jokes on you , John Cleese in Fawlty Towers didnt do deaf people any favours.!


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## Cleo38

kimthecat said:


> Im sorry to hear this. Í have been called names , cloth ears , deaf dog etc , also people playing jokes on you , John Cleese in Fawlty Towers didnt do deaf people any favours.!


But that one with the deaf Mrs Richards was so funny


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## kimthecat

Yeah. It is funny though its not funny when its played on you . You just feel stupid and embarrassed.

ETA . There's a difference between a practical joke and jokes in general. I laugh at deaf jokes if they are funny .

It still seems that being deaf isnt acceptable , The adverts for Hidden Hearing including the Boots one , no one knows you are wearing them as if its something to still be ashamed off.

While I'm on the subject , things not to say to a deaf person , "You can hear when you want to" and "Didnt you hear that" in an amazed tone.

Of course I heard that car coming, I just like to walk out in front of cars to scare the driver.


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## Cleo38

kimthecat said:


> Yeah. It is funny though its not funny when its played on you . You just feel stupid and embarrassed.
> 
> ETA . There's a difference between a practical joke and jokes in general. I laugh at deaf jokes if they are funny .
> 
> It still seems that being deaf isnt acceptable , The adverts for Hidden Hearing including the Boots one , no one knows you are wearing them as if its something to still be ashamed off.
> 
> While I'm on the subject , things not to say to a deaf person , "You can hear when you want to" and "Didnt you hear that" in an amazed tone.
> 
> Of course I heard that car coming, I just like to walk out in front of cars to scare the driver.


Yes, I've often thought that with the hidden hearing aid. I am supposed to wear one but don't, not because I'm embarrassed by it but hate the feel of it. I tried for ages but couldn't get used to it so gave up.

The only time I've been p*ssed off with someone was ages ago when I was in Tesco & I asked the assistant a question, she continued checking tins & didn't turn to me to reply but I couldn't hear her answer so I asked again. She huffed & repeated herself still not looking at me (rude anyway tbh!) so I said very loudly "I'm sorry my hearing impairment is irritating to you, it is to me at times so could you repeat that & look at me when you are talking?"

To her credit she did apologise & I hope it made her realise that some people have difficulties that aren't always obvious


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## SusieRainbow

I find some people are very inconvenienced by my hearing impairment, even people that know me well. Well, they're not half as inconvenienced as I am. The look of exasperation when asked to repeat something, the sigh , and then reply 'oh, it doesn't matter '
I find video calling very dfficult too because the picture's never clear enough for lp readng and the sound quality poor with back-ground noise .
There do seem to be indiviuals around to whom deafness equates to stupid.
Given a choce between texting and phone calls it's texting every time.
I think this why I like forums !


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## Happy Paws2

In this day and age, I think signing should be taught at school.


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## StormyThai

SusieRainbow said:


> I find some people are very inconvenienced by my hearing impairment, even people that know me well. Well, they're not half as inconvenienced as I am. The look of exasperation when asked to repeat something, the sigh , and then reply 'oh, it doesn't matter '
> I find video calling very dfficult too because the picture's never clear enough for lp readng and the sound quality poor with back-ground noise .
> There do seem to be indiviuals around to whom deafness equates to stupid.
> Given a choce between texting and phone calls it's texting every time.
> I think this why I like forums !


You've pretty much summed up my thoughts here. The look of exasperation, the rolled eyes, the deep sighs and then the shouting is the reason that I don't tend to tell people that I have a hearing impairment and if I'm struggling to work out what is going on then I just keep quiet and hope that a smile will work.

Phone calls are a huge source of anxiety for me, especially if the person on the other end has a strong accent and/or speaks quickly.


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## Cleo38

When I first had my hearing loss I attended a lip reading/sign language course run but the local council, It was only once a week s I thought it might be beneficial … & it was. But it was also sad that may people there (most were older) were so ashamed of their heating loss & felt that they were stupid. Maybe it was a generation thing, maybe it was because mine was only recent I don't know but some people said they didn't speak up at school or tell people how much they were struggling to learn in certain environments (but back then maybe nobody would have cared anyway) so instead were labelled as stupid & they didn't do as well as maybe they could have. 


I don't feel embarrassed about my hearing problems at all, I find it irritating at times when I can't keep up with conversations but that's mainly during meetings at work as I don't go out a lot socially. Maybe it would have been more of a issue when I was younger & out all the time.


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## SusieRainbow

StormyThai said:


> Phone calls are a huge source of anxiety for me, especially if the person on the other end has a strong accent and/or speaks quickly.


Absolutely this !
My son speaks fast, low and quietly . Of all people I fnd him the hardest to understand although he has no accent. On the phone can be very difficult but even in the same room can be awkward.


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## Boxer123

Happy Paws2 said:


> In this day and age, I think signing should be taught at school.


It is now in many primary schools but not so much in secondary. Many of the schools I visit use signing consistently throughout the day. I can use both makaton and BSL unfortunately like I said this seems to stop at secondary level.


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## ForestWomble

kimthecat said:


> Im sorry to hear this. Í have been called names , cloth ears , deaf dog etc , also people playing jokes on you , John Cleese in Fawlty Towers didnt do deaf people any favours.!


I am sorry to hear that 

************

I remember struggling at school but not understanding why, I didn't realise I had a hearing impediment as I was born with it so didn't know any better, but I remember feeling slightly anxious in certain settings as I couldn't hear the teacher over the other noises and feeling amazed that no one else seemed to have trouble, I do remember feeling really embarrassed and not admitting that I hadn't done something because I couldn't hear.


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## kimthecat

ForestWomble said:


> I am sorry to hear that
> 
> ************
> 
> I remember struggling at school but not understanding why, I didn't realise I had a hearing impediment as I was born with it so didn't know any better, but I remember feeling slightly anxious in certain settings as I couldn't hear the teacher over the other noises and feeling amazed that no one else seemed to have trouble, I do remember feeling really embarrassed and not admitting that I hadn't done something because I couldn't hear.


 When I was at school they did hearing tests , this was the 60s and early 70s and it seems they stop doing them after that which is a shame as children with hearing loss aren't picked up. Did your parents realise you have hearing problems?

Sorry if this is too personal. You dont have to answer or you could PM if you like.


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## kimthecat

Pawscrossed said:


> And very sad news today, Paulette Wilson has died.
> https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jul/23/windrush-campaigner-paulette-wilson-dies-aged-64


Such a shame.


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## ForestWomble

kimthecat said:


> When I was at school they did hearing tests , this was the 60s and early 70s and it seems they stop doing them after that which is a shame as children with hearing loss aren't picked up. Did your parents realise you have hearing problems?
> 
> Sorry if this is too personal. You dont have to answer or you could PM if you like.


Shame they stopped the hearing tests at school. I'll PM you re your question.


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## Pawscrossed

Back to Dominic and Friends.

_Andrew Mills is an advisor to the Board of Trade but you're not allowed to know that any more. After the Good Law project started talking about him the Board of Trade stopped publishing its members. His LinkedIn also says he's an 'senior board adviser' to Ayanda (but their website doesn't mention him). Ayanda Capital Limited specialises in "in currency trading, offshore property, private equity and trade financing". And is owned through the tax haven of Mauritius. He was or is founder of Prospermill (but the data changed when he was queried by The Good Law Project). Prospermill was set up by Andrew Mills and his wife in 2019. It is a £100 company which has never filed any accounts. It has no demonstrable knowledge of PPE (or anything else for that matter).

Good Law has been challenging Government's £15bn PPE procurement though the courts with a judicial review proceedings into three deals involving a pest controller, a wholesale confectioner and Ayanda via an offer from Prospermill. This includes a question over the Government's proposed £252m contract with a £100 company owned by an adviser to Liz Truss over PPE for FFP2 facemasks which can't be used by the NHS._

More on the links below. It's a bit complex, _very_ complex -but it all seems very dodgy, making money off misery and pandemic.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1291244082145177600
https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/108million/


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## Jesthar

Pawscrossed said:


> Back to Dominic and Friends.
> 
> _Andrew Mills is an advisor to the Board of Trade but you're not allowed to know that any more. After the Good Law project started talking about him the Board of Trade stopped publishing its members. His LinkedIn also says he's an 'senior board adviser' to Ayanda (but their website doesn't mention him). Ayanda Capital Limited specialises in "in currency trading, offshore property, private equity and trade financing". And is owned through the tax haven of Mauritius. He was or is founder of Prospermill (but the data changed when he was queried by The Good Law Project). Prospermill was set up by Andrew Mills and his wife in 2019. It is a £100 company which has never filed any accounts. It has no demonstrable knowledge of PPE (or anything else for that matter).
> 
> Good Law has been challenging Government's £15bn PPE procurement though the courts with a judicial review proceedings into three deals involving a pest controller, a wholesale confectioner and Ayanda via an offer from Prospermill. This includes a question over the Government's proposed £252m contract with a £100 company owned by an adviser to Liz Truss over PPE for FFP2 facemasks which can't be used by the NHS._
> 
> More on the links below. It's a bit complex, _very_ complex -but it all seems very dodgy, making money off misery and pandemic.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1291244082145177600
> https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/108million/


Pretty sure I read somewhere the other day that over £1 _billion_ of PPE supply contracts had been awarded to various companies with dodgy credentials...

Ah, got them:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288475828989329409https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/supplying-ppe-the-new-klondike/


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## MollySmith

Blimey... honestly that's... no wonder we're being encouraged to spend, that is all taxpayers money. Plus there's the testing of the virus.

https://www.cambridgeindependent.co...-efficient-covid-19-testing-contract-9115401/

I noticed there there was a thread on Twitter about the Withdrawal Bill costing too much... as Twitter says #onecrisisatatime....


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## Jesthar

MollySmith said:


> Blimey... honestly that's... no wonder we're being encouraged to spend, that is all taxpayers money. Plus there's the testing of the virus.
> 
> https://www.cambridgeindependent.co...-efficient-covid-19-testing-contract-9115401/
> 
> I noticed there there was a thread on Twitter about the Withdrawal Bill costing too much... as Twitter says #onecrisisatatime....


Forgot to say in the previous post, none of that £billion of PPE has been delivered, or even looks like it might ever be...


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## MollySmith

Jesthar said:


> Forgot to say in the previous post, none of that £billion of PPE has been delivered, or even looks like it might ever be...


And the masks they did are useless for NHS.... honestly...

This is a scary but cracking summary, he does this each week

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1291042650502705154


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## Calvine

He's out, it seems. (Have resurrected this thread rather than start another.).


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## LinznMilly

Calvine said:


> He's out, it seems. (Have resurrected this thread rather than start another.).


Who's "he"? Do you mean Cummings?


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## SusieRainbow

LinznMilly said:


> Who's "he"? Do you mean Cummings?


No-one could accuse Boris of knee jerk reaction!


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## Calvine

Calvine said:


> He's out, it seems. (Have resurrected this thread rather than start another.).


Yes; I said I had resurrected the original thread which I believed to be about Cummings (although the original thread may have gone off at a tangent).


----------

