# play fighting with your dogs



## farmski (Dec 25, 2009)

i have had dogs all of my life.. 

as i was growing up from very young 3 german shepherds. two rottweilers. collie cross and black lab and bull mastiff

all have been trained well as my mother used to be a puppy trainer and i have grown up to know how to controll and keep dogs that are respectfull yet very happy and extreamly loyal.

the question i have may be of personal preference really..

as i have always had play fights with my dogs... nothing to bring tears to the eyes... bar a nip on the butt when i was 5...hehe. but other than that none..

as long as a well trained dog knows the boundaries...

you put your hand in its mouth it licks it and tries to get it out...
if your playing, the most it does is a playfull maull...where it might just lick your face try to lightly hold then lick your arm etc..

all my dogs have had play fights and to no bitter end what so ever..

would you say that the same kind of playfull play fight with your dog is fine?

I am fully aware that an aggressive dog is a completely different matter..

but with a well trained, which is in every other respect friendly.. maybe barks a bit when someone comes to the door.. but well kept and happy..

is there any harm in play fighting with your dog??

i have allways been the dominant person in the relationships with my dogs.as i have been bought up to know to be the pack leader as caesar might say..

but my girlfriend is somewhat reserved with the fact that i have been this way..

I see it as having fun... there has never any need to actually fight off the dogs, even when i was a lot younger. i think she might see it as tempting fate or condoneing agression..

where as i see it as bonding, fun which they would do with other dog pack members and as long as that agression was never excessive and from an early age it was taught strick boundaries etc... 

is this teaching bad habbits?

is this confusing the dog to think that more than play fighting is ok?

or is it just playing with the dogs. 


as i have said , i have never had problems

im a 31 year old 6.2 ft male.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I play fight with my dogs but I'm not as rough as my OH is with them (he literally wrestles them). I have a collie cross, a German Shepherd and a english mastiff/dogue de bordeaux.

My dogs actually bite when we play but it's very soft bites and leaves nothing more than a light dent. If I tell them to stop they stop.

They know their boundaries and I love playing with them as it strengthens the bond.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> ...im a 31 year old 6-ft 2-inch male.


and Ur GF is presumably not over-6-ft, not 31-YO and presumably as fit? as U are, 
and not-Male...  Can U identify any potential problems here?

*Guys (virtually)  Always! think that play-fighting is just fine...  
IME many, many, Many! dogs and humans get into difficulties when dogs are ** encouraged ** 
to place TEETH on humans or clothing,  often during rough-housing.

kids who are smaller, slower and clumsier get hurt, or the dog resents the intrusion of the child; elder-adults with 
thin skins, slower reaction time and less muscle get bruised and punctured by grips that do not leave a mark 
on hale-and-hearty young adults and middle-aged mutt-wrestlers; 
over-aroused dogs often grab clothing and rip or puncture it, or they chase and harass non-family 
who do not understand that the dog is offering to play, and may panic.

*...but Fifi/Fido  Only wanted to play...  is not a defense in court.

men and boys often love rough-stuff; as a trainer, i feel it is problematic, and leads almost inevitably to problems. 
i constantly recommend against it; if YOU are the only family member or person who EVER! interacts with the dog, 
fine; live in a 2-person bubble, and the dog interacts only with U. 
but most of us have other humans with whom the dog is expected to behave quite differently; i think it is 
un-fair to blame the dog for Bad-Manners taught to them, by another (typically-male) adult or child.

all my best, 
--- terry

*


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

terry I agree with you on this, I have friends with a 11 months old staffy/am bull dog cross rescue, she is tot hyper. They try to keep her calmer in her playing but their lodger always wrestles her and plays rough, she ends up jumping and mouthing others in the household in the same manner Iincluding my 7 months pregnant friend), I keep saying to discourage the lodger...

On the other hand I have a staffy cross that is very aware of how much intensity to put into play (he is 20 mts), if he plays with another staffy you would think they are about to fight one another, but with different breeds come different strength of play. He can be super gentle with a mad JRT, and even with say a Golden he never gets as rough as with a bull breed.

Don't you think some dogs could be trusted to understand how far to go? Not all of them can of course, my friend being the example.

I should add I never accept mouthing and he never does it with me even when I roll on the floor with him, but some one at works loves it and he seem to know this and it's mouthing all the way... He plays with my friend's 21 months old son and never touched him with his mouth it's just chasing around each other.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

hey, digna! :--) 

there are =Some!= dogs who can be careful with their strength, but for many the excitement of play makes them forget - 
a dog who would NEVER bite full-force except in genuine self-defense, when actually threatened mildly, 
will so far forget themselves as to bite painfully during rough play.  

so i never recommend it with any dog who does interact with others than the owners; 
it can backfire very badly, and it is always the poor dog whose life + freedom are at risk; 
no one suggests the OWNER or RELATIVE or NEIGHBOR be punished, :thumbdown: 
and the dogs very life could be the co$t - a high price indeed, for rough play. 

all my best, 
--- terry


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

I never play rough with my dogs - they have each other for that - I aint getting involved on that level


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Agree with Terry - when my dog was a puppy we often visited a male friend who delighted in wrestling with the pup. It seems to be a 'man thing' version of play. I lost count of the times I lost my temper after repeatedly telling my friend not to do that.

It's also possible that a particularly 'bright' dog might grow up thinking that it's OK to be rougher or more aggressive with men but not women.... which could lead to aggression to men later in life.... There are so many dogs with behavioural issues with men, it's untrue. In my dog's case it's directly due to abuse from male teenagers living next door, which has triggered his protectiveness and guarding instinct but would you want to risk it?


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Disagree with playfighting, thats what they have doggy friends for IMO.

I think there are far too many dogs who wouldn't understand the boundary. My GR is extremely intelligent, he knows how people work/who is worth/not worth bothering with, how to sneak about, learns things incredibly quickly and remembers things...

But he wouldn't understand where that boundary is. He would take me saying 'enough' and back off, but he wouldn't KNOW at what stage enough was enough. He wouldn't listen to anyone else if they said 'enough' wither I doubt. Causes far, far too many problems IMO and not something that should be done. I don't even play tug, because again I think its daft trying to reinforce a dog to have a gentle mouth, and then hauling its mouth about to get the toy off the dog, just teaches bad practice.

I think there are many other things to do which are far more beneficial for both dog and people.

There are a lot of people, like myself, who disagree with Caesar's methods, just like I do some of Parelli's in the horse world. We aren't dogs and can't be the pack leader, we are the provider of their resources, and therefore the controller of resources and they can learn respect us for those reasons, not because we poke them with two fingers imitating a bite like Caesar says :laugh:

Rule number 1 for me is that we are the controller of resources, not dominant or pack leader.

Re the this being different with an aggressive dog, how can you tell if it is aggressive without playing and coming off worse? Its difficult to define aggressive without something having proven that fact, I just think its not worth the risk


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## sketch (Sep 19, 2009)

IM 5"3 and have two GSD's and a little border collie.
I dont rough house with them as i like them to be easy going, chilled and calm, they are still deemed as pups, but even at 40kg, and 47kg if they get too excited you could easily be hurt by one of them knocking me over, I have been knocked flying and ended up with a face full of mud before, and i wasnt play fighting either haha.
We train, we chase each other on the field, ( I lose), but they see training as fun, because i make it fun. we play mind games and stuff like that, but as daft as it sounds they like nothing better than me sitting on the floor with then being stroked, heads across my legs.
I have played the odd game of tugga, but again i lose they are too strong now for any of that even.
xx


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

Hi

I never, never play rough with my dogs, When I first met my other half 16 years ago, he had always played rough with his dogs and couldn't understand my stance on it. I had a very young collie then, who was very excitable and the last thing he needed was 'roughing' up.

We now have a five year old daughter and not to 'play' these games is even more important for us as a family, the Collie is long gone, but we still have two dogs and the rule still applies.

Unfortunately a dog that learns to 'playfight' with a person, can't reason that only certain persons will play this game, so it puts everyone whoever has contact with that dog at a risk - maybe a small one, but nonetheless it puts both dog and owner in an untenable position.

I also don't allow my daughter to play tug with the dogs - only one is young enough to enjoy this now. Neither do we play these games at home, although I do play tug with the lead when training, but have switch on and switch off word.

There a are many more productive and fun games to play!

Kate


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Most of you know of my thoughts and experiences of the subject of this thread. I actually pasted my post from a previous thread into a page on my own little website. Here's the *LINK* I won't expand on it any more than that but suffice to say that no, in my opinion and experience it is not cool, funny or wise and above all, it is not neccessary.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

we will often rough play with mavis and she knows her limits as did ozzy...its the upbringing...

juliex


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## farmski (Dec 25, 2009)

well it does seem that most think that it is a bad idea...

In my experience tho... it does make a big difference with whith who is who in the houshold..

my mother would be the one who dissaplines.

my farther who prodominantly spoilt with food, took for the longer walks.

i would keep dissapline but would be more playfull...

and my brother probably about the same..


new people to the house would get a barking at the dorr then a good sniffing...


I honestly bevieve that all of my dogs they have had a good understanding to who was who and what each family member could and did play within the family unit.....

each of my own human family were approached very differently too.. in that none would expect food from my mom.. my dad was allways a push over with treats and fussing...

and to say that dogs dont really understand who to play ruff with and who not too.. i think that is totally down to training and how far you go with the play...

some have said they have recieved bite marks.. and some dogs get over excited etc.. i dont think i have had that problem... and the perception of what kind of play is easily missconstrued in this thread!!


so how far is too far?? playing tug?? how could that be a bad thing if its with its own toy..?

all my dogs have quickly learned that my dads slippers dont get chewed... and they get a ball or something that they can tear appart without conciquence... and fully know the difference in what is or isnt theirs...

the same as... I feel that they take each to their own in how they approach different dogs and youngsters...

down to when my brothers 18 month old daughter came to visit... and they were instantly drawn in.... had a sniff to say hello... extreamly gentle.. calm and attentive to her... the mastiff probably more so... followed her everywhere and one pont blocked her from going in to the garden... by sitting in the doorway..

which from where i was seeing it from.. was nurturing. 

im not saying that you should play ruff all the time or taunt into aggression.. but creating a playfull bond between selected family members does infact reinforce status within the family unit... and that aslong as any underlieing issues that could steam to bad behavour are isolated and dealt with and kept in check... a well trained happy dog...

where do you draw the line...


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## farmski (Dec 25, 2009)

paddyjulie said:


> we will often rough play with mavis and she knows her limits as did ozzy...its the upbringing...
> 
> juliex


EXACTLY!!

teasing is cruel... playing is playing... its the same with kids... its the same with dogs... and there is a difference!!

you can see when a dogs pissed off... and id never over step that mark...

the same as yuo as your dogs owner should be able to give and take away a dogs food from it without agression of even the threat of being bitten or growled at... and for people who have even that kind of problem... that will steam in to a dog to some extent doesnt trust you.. so may eventually bite the hand that feeds it...

(just an example)


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

mavis will rough play with myself and Paddy... but would never ever try and rough play with our 8 yr old daughter..we always start the rough play and always end it by simply stopping and walking away...i have had bullterriers for 20 years and this has never been a problem.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> re farmski -
> _ ...where do you draw the line... _


i think we have Already Answered this at length - 
final statement - _*if U insist on rough play with the dog - 
DO * NOT Blame the dog, if somebody OTHER = THAN = U  like a kid, like the neighbor, like the visitor -  
gets bitten. it is Your Fault - not the dogs, IMO and IME. kapisch? 

if U are not willing to listen to the answers, why ask the question? :blink:
blunt but aiming for clarity, 
--- terry

*_


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> i think we have Already Answered this at length -
> final statement - _*if U insist on rough play with the dog -
> DO * NOT Blame the dog, if somebody OTHER = THAN = U  like a kid, like the neighbor, like the visitor -
> gets bitten. it is Your Fault - not the dogs, IMO and IME. kapisch?
> ...


it depends what you call rough play!!!! my dogs know their boundaries...children come into my home and play ..no problem...neighbours walk into my garden...my dogs know what is play..,

juliex


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> re paddyJulie -
> _ ...my dogs know their boundaries...children come into my home and play...
> no problem... neighbours walk into my garden... _


i will reiterate, julie - 
if the kids, the neighbors, the family visitors, ____ , get scratched, bruised or punctured, have clothing ripped, etc, 
be prepared to accept that it is * Your Complete and Utter Responsibility,  and Do Not Blame the Dog(s). * 
however... 
the dogs are risking a lot more than a civil suit or a fine; the dogs LIVES are on the line, 
and U will not be the one who may get to make the decision, live? or die?

the decision is Urs, *the responsibility and Legal-Liability are Yours* - 
the potential sentence is the dogs. 
*if the dog(s) do pounce on somebody who is not on the playmates list, will U punish them? 
or will U apologize to the person, and SAY * THIS * WAS * ALL * MY * FAULT? 
whats the answer? 
--- terry

*


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> _*if U are not willing to listen to the answers, why ask the question? :blink:*_
> _*blunt but aiming for clarity, *_
> _*--- terry *_


I feel your exasperation Terry. We may be on different sides of the pond but behaviour problems with people and dogs are the same, caused by the same actions from the owner. If people could only shadow behavioural trainers on cases like dogs biting children, dogs too boisterous and out of control, dogs tearing clothes, mouthing hands, knocking people obver etc then perhaps they might understand why we 'do blunt' sometimes as we seen and heard it all so many times before. :huh: 

I don't see any reason for rough play with dogs myself though many owners sadly seem to concentrate more on doing that than they do on basic training.  There's no need for it and it is far cleverer to teach a dog to retrieve, to find lost articles, play hide and seek with it's owner, to play recall games with the whole family etc instead of being wound up and over-excited then smacked or shouted at because they went too far. If I did play fight with my dogs (which I do not) I would not be advising anyone on an open forum that it is ok to do so as I do not know their dogs either!

And what is this obsession people have with 'discipline'? If a dog is brought up properly and trained correctly then there is no need for 'discipline' apart from a growly Oi! or No! etc. Physical discipline is counter-productive anyway and often ends up producing fear biters and snappers.:nonod:


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## Puma (Nov 17, 2009)

Puppies learn the boundries whilst with their mother, encouraging 'rough play' in my view is not advisable. We do play with our dogs, but we discourage chasing, jumping and definately any play that involves mouthing.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

farmski said:


> well it does seem that most think that it is a bad idea...
> 
> In my experience tho... it does make a big difference with whith who is who in the houshold..


I do all these different things with my dog, he is my dog, my responsibility, and so I play, walk, feed and train him. He doesn't ever get table scraps/naughty treats because they are bad for him and he'll get overweight in no time being a retriever, he doesn't need them, all he needs are training treats for something new.



farmski said:


> I honestly bevieve that all of my dogs they have had a good understanding to who was who and what each family member could and did play within the family unit.....


But at what *age *do they have this understanding?! You can't expect a young dog to know the boundary. As an example, at 10 months old when my golden retriever was neutered, he weighed 29kgs. There is no way anyone would expect a retriever of that age to be imprecabbly behaved, he had barely entered his teenage stage. I am female, 5 foot 9 inches and weigh about 10 and a half stone on average, and when he would muck about and sometimes jump up still at that age, he really threw me off balance and could knock me over if he pulled hard enough on a walk. He could have really hurt me if he tried to play fight and didn't understand when to listen/stop. Maybe now he would be better, but its not something I'm going to try with a 30kg dog.



farmski said:


> and to say that dogs dont really understand who to play ruff with and who not too.. i think that is totally down to training and how far you go with the play...


OK, what training? Do you mean the quality of training? My dog is very, very well trained. He has been in kennels twice and the people have been there 17 years, and they said in all their time he is hands down the best behaved and well trained golden retriever they have ever had. He will sit, then lie, then sit, then back, then lie, then stand, then speak, then lie, all for a pat on his head.



farmski said:


> so how far is too far?? playing tug?? how could that be a bad thing if its with its own toy..?


Because when you give them a rawhide bone, what happens if they try to swallow a huge chunk, and you need to take it away, but they think its theirs, and therefore play tug for it? Changes it very much from being a game. Tug teaches a dog to have a firm/hard mouth, which is why no working gundog ever plays tug, because it teaches them to be too firm.



farmski said:


> all my dogs have quickly learned that my dads slippers dont get chewed... and they get a ball or something that they can tear appart without conciquence... and fully know the difference in what is or isnt theirs...


My dog doesn't, does that make him stupid? Rupert will take anything that is lying about on his level and have a mouth over it, if I take it away, he then knows he can't have it and it isn't his, but he doesn't know without being told.


farmski said:


> im not saying that you should play ruff all the time or taunt into aggression.. but creating a playfull bond between selected family members does infact *reinforce status within the family unit*... and that aslong as any underlieing issues that could steam to bad behavour are isolated and dealt with and kept in check... a well trained happy dog...
> 
> where do you draw the line...


Read my other post. Dominance doesn't exist here because you aren't a dog, you are a person. My dog is very well trained and very happy, yet we have never needed to resort to play fighting or tug to keep him happy.

My dog is quite obviously very stupid if your post speaks any truth


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

I totally dissagree with play fighting, I have had dogs for over 30 years and never found a need for it, there are other types of games you can play with your dog than fighting, I am guessing that its certain humans way of trying to show the world they have control, but it can always backfire, in todays climate of dog hating brigade around every corner, a dog that is just jumping up to have a "play" with someone or "mouth" someone is enough for the dog to be breaking the law. I have had friends in the past come to my home and try rough house play(mainly men) with my dogs, and they are asked politely not to do it. I teach my dogs that teeth and skin should never meet, why on earth would I confuse the dog by saying ok in this instance its ok because I am playing, its NOT OK in any circumstances. as others have mentioned its the dog that ends up being punished purely because of the stupid macho mentality of its owners.

Mo


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I'm off to go muzzle my evil dogs


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## slicksps (Oct 11, 2009)

I've always play fought with my dogs. (even bravely/stupidly a stranger's once) I love it as much as they do 

You should be very disciplined as it's very risky, as above if he mistakes a small child for one who wants to play fight, you'll have a very unhappy child and a 'savage dog attack' headline to deal with.

You should never let teeth contact happen when YOU haven't started the fighting game. You should have a very specific and unique action or command to allow this play to start, and one to stop in case it goes too far. The dog should NEVER be allowed to start this game. Any biting outside these commands should not be tolerated.

The 'start fight' action should be unique enough to avoid a child doing it by accident and the 'stop' should be instant.

Generally this should be overkill as normally the dog is relatively gentle but we all know they can get a bit too excited and that's when the trouble starts. It only takes one badly aimed bite to make you regret ever thinking about it. When under your complete control, it's a good fun game to play and breaks up the boring old 'fetch'


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

sequeena said:


> I'm off to go muzzle my evil dogs


Dont think ANYONE said you or anyone else had evil dogs, we are talking dogs here not robots, they have their good and bad days, some days more controlled than others, lets hope those that have trigger words to start and end this "play" that their dog is ALWAYS on a good day, and ALWAYS prepared to listen. can those of you honestly say that your dogs obey you 100%, 100% of the time? if not then one day the dog may choose to ignor a command in this type of play like it can in other areas.

Mo


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## farmski (Dec 25, 2009)

with regards to training..

My mother worked in obedience training. as well as a guide dog instructor. for many years...till she passed a couple of years ago.. and with most of my dogs a thorough training regime was given for probably the first couple years... but did continue through life.. as it was more of a hobby for my mom too.. so from the general sit.. stay heel. etc.. to going on walks with no need for a lead was pretty normal for them.. as getting startled by noises and the lust to chase after cats and stuff were not in anyway a problem..

i have picked up a lot from her, in no way am i saying im a knowit all on these matters, in which case i wouldnt be comming on a forum and asking .. but maybe as i havnt encountered problems my self... mostlikely down to the fassion that my dogs were trained... I have over looked some of the more common issues that "playing with a dog...like a dog" may cause

thanks... and i hope that everyone had a smashing xmass too


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

moboyd said:


> Dont think ANYONE said you or anyone else had evil dogs, we are talking dogs here not robots, they have their good and bad days, some days more controlled than others, lets hope those that have trigger words to start and end this "play" that their dog is ALWAYS on a good day, and ALWAYS prepared to listen. can those of you honestly say that your dogs obey you 100%, 100% of the time? if not then one day the dog may choose to ignor a command in this type of play like it can in other areas.
> 
> Mo


If you hadn't noticed the  it was a joke.


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## slicksps (Oct 11, 2009)

moboyd said:


> lets hope those that have trigger words to start and end this "play" that their dog is ALWAYS on a good day, and ALWAYS prepared to listen. can those of you honestly say that your dogs obey you 100%, 100% of the time? if not then one day the dog may choose to ignor a command in this type of play like it can in other areas.


Almost any dog at any age with any training will happily play this game. By controlling play you develop a trigger and stop word. The stop may only work 80-99% of the time but those without have no way of stopping an excited dog which was triggered by some unknown event/action and will have to rely on other training.

I've never been bitten hard in these games, the only injuries sustained were a head butted nose and a claw-scratched arm when I played in just a T-shirt.

While you/we don't want to encourage biting behaviour, it's in the dog's nature to do certain things. The easiest way to stop something is to train a way to stop which should be reinforced like all other training by triggering the situation in the first place. You only have control of the dog when you have control over ALL of his behaviours.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

slicksps said:


> Almost any dog at any age with any training will happily play this game. By controlling play you develop a trigger and stop word. The stop may only work 80-99% of the time but those without have no way of stopping an excited dog which was triggered by some unknown event/action and will have to rely on other training.
> 
> I've never been bitten hard in these games, the only injuries sustained were a head butted nose and a claw-scratched arm when I played in just a T-shirt.
> 
> While you/we don't want to encourage biting behaviour, it's in the dog's nature to do certain things. The easiest way to stop something is to train a way to stop which should be reinforced like all other training by triggering the situation in the first place. You only have control of the dog when you have control over ALL of his behaviours.


Think you're talking our of your rear here.

Any dog will play this game yes, and most of them have no idea whatsoever in themselves, to know when enough is enough. They need to be told, can a child or small adult know this signal of how to tell them otherwise? No. Dogs ALWAYS try to initiate play/get away with thing with new people, they wont wait for a specific signal to be told to play if someone knew comes to see them!

My dog is extremely well trained, and he will stop 100% the time when told to do so, it might take a firmer voice command as the softer tone doesn't work immediately, but he stops when asked, and I choose not to play rough with him.

I believe your dog bit your wife, so you don't have control over all of his behaviours do you? It is impossible to control their every move, which is why by throwing rough fighting into the mix creates more problems. It isn't even being used to solve a problem, just to 'have fun' so there is no logical reason for it.

I resisted replying to your original post, but I have to respond to this one.

This topic is heading for going way off topic. I think anyone who play fights with a dog is incredibly naive and in most cases stupid as well.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Tinsley in all fairness, get a grip.

You may not agree with what he said but you can at least be polite about it.

Christmas Spirit my arse


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

sequeena said:


> If you hadn't noticed the  it was a joke.


But this is not a joking matter there are people on here who see the result of inappropriate "play" on a daily basis, in rescue and in training classes people come to these forums to gain information, they may be very inexperienced dog owners and the information supplied to those should be SAFE and correct.

Mo


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## farmski (Dec 25, 2009)

I do fully agree with the need to understand how a dog projects its temperament.

you do need to get to know these to be able to train quickly and efficiently.

however aggression and over excitement are pretty blatent to see. where as a dogs lack repect in you as the owner is not so much. there is a difference in a dog doing what its told because it might get a treat and a dog being bluntly obedient. and i do feel that this is maybe where differences in how well trained you have your dogs maybe unballanced and there for points of view on "some" matters may vary to different extremes.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Hmm. All these years of owning multiple dogs and I haven't play fought or allowed anyone to rough play, with them. How on earth have I maintained control of between 5 & 7 dogs at any one time? :huh: How does my sister maintain control of her 8 stone Rotty or my other sister keep control of two German Shepherds? They do not play fight/rough with theirs either!  But..... none of us have ever had problems with our dogs being over boisterous etc! We can all take anything we want away from our dogs (if we needed to) and have no obedience problems. Must be a fluke. 

Please, anyone reading this thread, take it from those of us who have spent years helping people with dogs and their 'problems', *do not* take it that playfighting and playing rough with your dogs is the right thing to do if you want to be able to control your dogs - it isn't! 

Some people may seem to get away with it and have no problems with their dogs but is it a risk that you are prepared to take? 

At the end of the day if a child runs towards your dog with it's arms oustretched and your dog takes that as a cue to leap up and mouth whilst growling, then you only have yourself to blame when the police knock on your door! :nonod: I have seen the desperation in owners eyes and the heartbreak when this has happened. 

I have seen the dogs, totally confused because all of a sudden, they have gone from being the playmate, the one who dad rough-housed on the back yard when he came in from work etc, to being an outcast, shut in a kitchen or kennel and run because they are now under threat of destruction because they accidently split open the two year old boys head with a mistimed 'mouth' or knocked the sons friend flying when they approached them with arms outstretched in greeting. 

Take the advice of the trainers and behaviourists and the dogs owners who know on here - don't do it! Play other games instead.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

sequeena said:


> Tinsley in all fairness, get a grip.
> 
> You may not agree with what he said but you can at least be polite about it.
> 
> Christmas Spirit my arse


I am being polite by ignoring the first post and not saying half of what I think. I will respond to people how I see fit. Probably doesn't help that I have given advice and links and received no thanks for it, as well as PM's 

I tried my best not to comment about your post as I don't think this is a joking matter either.

Can't believe some of the comments in this thread, it is others who need to 'get a grip' so to speak. I think play fighting isn't needed and will cause far more harm than good. End of.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Hmm. All these years of owning multiple dogs and I haven't play fought or allowed anyone to rough play, with them. How on earth have I maintained control of between 5 & 7 dogs at any one time? :huh: How does my sister maintain control of her 8 stone Rotty or my other sister keep control of two German Shepherds? They do not play fight/rough with theirs either!  But..... none of us have ever had problems with our dogs being over boisterous etc! We can all take anything we want away from our dogs (if we needed to) and have no obedience problems. Must be a fluke.
> 
> Please, anyone reading this thread, take it from those of us who have spent years helping people with dogs and their 'problems', *do not* take it that playfighting and playing rough with your dogs is the right thing to do if you want to be able to control your dogs - it isn't!
> 
> ...


Well said, if I had rep left it would be coming your way! Will give you it tomorrow


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## kitty 333 (Nov 22, 2009)

Ipersonly dont think there is any thing wrong with play fighting ,i am a 5'2 slight female we have 6 rescue dogs they are 2 small yorkies a gsd a old bulldog a staffie x collie and jackrussel x whippet they all love their play fight but they also know that im the boss and when i say stop they all listen. play fighting as also helped my rescue yorkie the first 4 years of her life she was used for breeding and kept in bad conditions she was terrified of her own shadow ,playfighting has helped her bond with me . On saying all this the big dogs are kept separate from the small ones when we go out just in case they all start to play when we are out . Every one has to do what is right for them because all dogs like humans are different. Julie


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

and FOUR experienced, multi-year trainers *who believe play-fighting is a really, really bad idea, 
which can put the dogs life at potential risk, and may co$t the owner a fine, medical bills, their householder 
insurance policy may be forfeit, etc. 

personally, i began working with other peoples dogs in 1972; that was many dogs ago. 
*caroline* i know has over 20 years in dog training - how much more, i don;t know. 
* k8t * is another experienced trainer; *moboyd* is another - how many years do we total?

ignore us at Ur peril; i will stop wasting time + breath. 
good luck to Ur dogs, 
--- terry *


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## slicksps (Oct 11, 2009)

> My dog is extremely well trained, and he will stop 100% the time when told to do so


Stop what when told to do so? If he's so well trained, why does he start? As someone said above, we can have very good control over a dog, but never 100% absolute control. Would you leave your dog alone with a curious toddler and tell him to stay still while he has a plastic dinosaur poking in his ear? I'm sure your sit-stay is fantastic but he's not going to sit-stay if you're kicking him in the rear. I'm not questioning your training and hard work that went into it, but I don't feel '100% control' is truly possible.

Shadow and I enjoy short rough games occasionally. I take comfort in that he never initiates it without my cue. Injuries do happen and I take full responsibility for it, but I am able to stop him on cue if he ever makes a move towards anyone else in the same way. This translates well to aggressive dogs in the park, although good recall would have the same effect. I'm not saying it's vital to play like this, not everyone is physically fit enough to. I'm not even encouraging it, I'm just saying that it is possible to play rough without repercussions.

Outside those games he has only shown aggression once when frightened by my overly affectionate wife, but that has passed and we've had no problems since. My other dogs we had absolutely no problems with, and I've been playing with dogs like this since I was 5. (yes I had an irresponsible parent, but that scarring is for another forum  )



> Think you're talking our of your rear here.


Which point do you think I'm talking out of my rear? My posts are full of warnings and advice if the OP or other readers do choose to play rough and my experiences. I don't understand how my experiences are 'out of my rear'


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Tinsley said:


> I am being polite by ignoring the first post and not saying half of what I think. I will respond to people how I see fit. Probably doesn't help that I have given advice and links and received no thanks for it, as well as PM's
> 
> I tried my best not to comment about your post as I don't think this is a joking matter either.
> 
> Can't believe some of the comments in this thread, it is others who need to 'get a grip' so to speak. I think play fighting isn't needed and will cause far more harm than good. End of.


I'm sorry, I didn't realise this thread was meant for us to be judged. My dogs are happy and healthy.

You can have your opinion and I will have mine, except some of us are much more polite about it 

End of.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

slicksps said:


> Stop what when told to do so? If he's so well trained, why does he start?


Because he's a dog and its in his nature to get excitable being less than 18 months old. I feel sorry for any dog that feels it can't ask its owner to play.

I don't stop him having fun, I ask him to calm down when he is getting too excited in the house, that's what the back yard is for and where he gets redirected if he wants a bit of silly time.



slicksps said:


> As someone said above, we can have very good control over a dog, but never 100% absolute control.


I think you will find that was me.



slicksps said:


> Would you leave your dog alone with a curious toddler and tell him to stay still while he has a plastic dinosaur poking in his ear? I'm sure your sit-stay is fantastic but he's not going to sit-stay if you're kicking him in the rear. I'm not questioning your training and hard work that went into it, but I don't feel *'100% control' *is truly possible.


Read my post, I said he 100% stops doing something when told to do so, and he does. I never once said I control him in every single way which is what you are insinuating. I wouldn't leave any dog unattended with a child, because a child can misinterpret signals as can a dog.

And I have NO idea whatsoever you are on about the if I kick my dog he wont stay still. If he did stay still it wouldn't be from being obedient I would expect it to be in fear..!

If you are going to quote, do it properly and don't quote me incorrectly please.



slicksps said:


> Which point do you think I'm talking out of my rear? My posts are full of warnings and advice if the OP or other readers do choose to play rough and my experiences. I don't understand how my experiences are 'out of my rear'


OK, will post below what I believe is you talking out your rear.

Reading my post and feeding back incorrect information from them, like me saying my dog is 100% under my control which I did not state. I stated that he will stop something when I ask him to do it, and he will.



slicksps said:


> You only have control of the dog when you have control over ALL of his behaviours.


I thought you couldn't ever have full control over a dog?



slicksps said:


> The stop may only work 80-99% of the time but those without have no way of stopping an excited dog


I can stop my dog very well thank you, I don't need to play fight with him to get him to be able to stop. He will stop eating, or playing or walking when I ask him to, he has learnt from other behaviours what 'enough' means.



slicksps said:


> While you/we don't want to encourage biting behaviour, it's in the dog's nature to do certain things


Which is why they have doggy friends and toys, you ARE encouraging a dog to play roughly with humans when play fighting.

Those kinds of things come to mind. I also see no warnings in your posts, when you say there are some 

Perhaps we just interpret posts very differently, I haven't intended to offend, as you know I've sent you PM's before which I thought would help and a link to a useful site just recently. But you can't state something, then go back on it and use it against someone else.

Sequeena: I am not impolite, just blunt and abrupt in my opinions, which I don't believe was a crime last time I looked. I've not judged, it seems apparent you have though, good thing I'm used to that in my life


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

I play tug with Ollie but he knows the drop command and he does it instantly. I think playing tug is fine as long as you have control over the toy and don't let them win too often.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

I have been lucky enough to have been born and brought up with dogs and alot of other animals for that matter as I lived on a farm, I do rough play with all mine and mine are used by children for handling at the shows, all mine know when play is play and when to stop, they have never ever had an incident where it has got out of hand and they all run together as a pack as well all 12 of them and 7 different breeds in that. 

Some of it will depend on the breed of dog, we have no guarding breeds here, and perhaps that makes a difference the gundogs all have naturally soft mouths and the terrier is the one with the hardest mouth of the pack as you would expect but she doesnt make contact either.

To this I would say you know your dog (or should) and whether it can take rough play or not.

I definately will not stop with mine.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Misquoted you where?  You do come across as very judgemental, not blunt.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

It may depend on the individual nature of the dog. I wouldnt dream of play fighting/wrestling with Oscar, as with him everything is a matter of seeing what boundaries he can push, what behaviours he can get away with. Only takes one person to slip up and he tries it on with everyone. I dont play tuggy games with him either as his behaviour goes downhill for days afterwards. Everything is a battle with him, andim not convinced he sees it as "play" more as a test of wills and strength.
In the wrong hands i think Oz would have potentially been a problem dog. He's not aggressive, but he is persistant, smart and very focussed and intense. He also does not give up easily. 

Alfie on the other hand would probably be fine. But he hates rough games, and tugging for the most part. He'd much rather play with his squeeky balls.

I dont agree with encouraging a dog to mouth and jump up and rough house. I think it sends out the wrong signals as to what is and isnt acceptable. 

It is personal choice of course, and if something were to happen then its the owner that will have to take responsibility. Its not a risk id be willing to take personally. There are many ways to bond with your dog, many ways to play with them. I prefer teaching them to play gently. I dont let mine rough play with each other too much either.

But to each his own.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> and FOUR experienced, multi-year trainers *who believe play-fighting is a really, really bad idea, *
> _*which can put the dogs life at potential risk, and may co$t the owner a fine, medical bills, their householder *_
> _*insurance policy may be forfeit, etc. *_
> 
> ...


If we go back to when I first started to learn about how to train dogs (our family Cairn Terrier, a friends Basset Hound and another friends Border Collie then we are going back 36 years! <gulps> If we go back to when I really got into dog training and started it as a major interest with my own dogs then we can go back just 25 years.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I'm not trying to be horrible but years, as many as you have do NOT make you better than the rest of us. I hate this attitude of 'I've been doing this for longer so I am right' :nonod:

I have been nothing but polite yet I'm now being made to feel like an inadequate dog owner which I am NOT.

I'll stop wasting my breath too as I am obviously in the wrong.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

All we can say is each to their own Sequeena - I think we all know our own dogs best


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

tashi said:


> All we can say is each to their own Sequeena - I think we all know our own dogs best


Thank you 

Yes I like to think we all know our dogs, after all if we don't who does? Not every case is the same and whilst some people would never dream of rough play as long as I know I am careful and have set boundaries (of which I have a ton) then I *HOPE* (emphasis so no-one takes it the wrong way!) everything will be fine.

I am not a bad owner, I have high energy dogs who love nothing more than to play paw boxing or to have their ears tugged once in a while.

I would never pin my dog or back it into a corner to make it become agressive.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

sequeena said:


> I'm not trying to be horrible but years, as many as you have do NOT make you better than the rest of us. I hate this attitude of 'I've been doing this for longer so I am right' :nonod:
> 
> I have been nothing but polite yet I'm now being made to feel like an inadequate dog owner which I am NOT.
> 
> I'll stop wasting my breath too as I am obviously in the wrong.


Nopes. I am no better than anyone else. But I have observed dog behaviour and made it my business (and pleasure) to learn as much about it as I can for all these years rather than stick with what I first ever learned. I started with Barbara Woodhouse books (all I could find in the library) for heavens sake, lol!. However, another person may have been doing the same as me for 40 years, therefore I would be respectful to their enhanced wisdom and experience - but that would not mean that I thought that they were better than me, just more learned in my given subject.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Nopes. I am no better than anyone else. But I have observed dog behaviour and made it my business (and pleasure) to learn as much about it as I can for all these years rather than stick with what I first ever learned. I started with Barbara Woodhouse books (all I could find in the library) for heavens sake, lol!. However, another person may have been doing the same as me for 40 years, therefore I would be respectful to their enhanced wisdom and experience - but that would not mean that I thought that they were better than me, just more learned in my given subject.


Haha I have heard this Barbara Woodhouse is a bit hmm... Shite?? 

I respect everyone's opinions though sometimes I think 'wtf is going through this person's head??'. Respect to those of you who have been doing this for years and I am hopeful that in 20 years I am where you are all at


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

sequeena said:


> Haha I have heard this Barbara Woodhouse is a bit hmm... Shite??


Yeah, she is/was, but to people of a certain era, she was all anyone knew - the first TV dog trainer in the UK, in an age when most people hadn't a clue.

I got a book out of the library when I was 16, "The Obedient Dog" by John Holmes, and based training our family's puppy on that. I still see this book quoted occasionally as being influential, and it certainly was for me. When training classes eventually started in our town 3 years later, we spent the first lesson in Beginners and were promoted to Advanced the following week, because of the groundwork I'd put in using that book.

Sadly we could never achieve a decent retrieve with Sally, or I might well have gone into competitive obedience in my teen years! We did try once, at an Exemption show and were placed 8th out of 16 in Beginners.

I wouldn't mind re-reading it now actually, just to see what's changed over time.... bearing in mind it was the Choke Chain era and positive reward based methods had yet to make an appearance.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> Yeah, she is/was, but to people of a certain era, she was all anyone knew - the first TV dog trainer in the UK, in an age when most people hadn't a clue.
> 
> I got a book out of the library when I was 16, "The Obedient Dog" by John Holmes, and based training our family's puppy on that. I still see this book quoted occasionally as being influential, and it certainly was for me. When training classes eventually started in our town 3 years later, we spent the first lesson in Beginners and were promoted to Advanced the following week, because of the groundwork I'd put in using that book.
> 
> ...


Training progresses over the years, a bit like medical science and things they did back then we would never dream of doing today.

Thanks for that MM I think I may go pick up this book to see what it's like


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## sketch (Sep 19, 2009)

Ha ha I remember her when i was a kid, sorry i have the giggles now, she used to shriek SIT ! haha
xx


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> re sequeena -
> _ ...years, as many as you have, do NOT make you better than the rest of us.
> I hate this attitude of 'I've been doing this for longer so I am right'... _


i was not speaking to U, sequeena - but the OP. 
if he wants to take the risk, it is his dogs who may suffer for it. 
he has not said if his GF is a 6-ft, 4-inch Amazon who bench-presses her own weight, either - 
but that is not the average. 

please do not get yer knickers twisted, ma'am. this is still a polite tho obvious disagreement, 
between the OP + several experienced trainers. opinions are just that, but i have been reading, studying 
and earning CEUs for decades. that should have earned my professional opinion a bit more weight, no?

 analogy -  
if someone asked me how deep the foundation on a 3-story home in a soft-soil area with a high water table 
ought to be, i would tell them i am not qualified to express an opinion - 
i have never built a 3-story house,  never designed one, have no idea. 
dogs? dogs i have studied extensively. 
all my best, 
--- terry


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> i was not speaking to U, sequeena - but the OP.
> if he wants to take the risk, it is his dogs who may suffer for it.
> he has not said if his GF is a 6-ft, 4-inch Amazon who bench-presses her own weight, either -
> but that is not the average.
> ...


Ah thanks for clarifying that 

I understand you have a ton of experience, hat off to you for that but we can only advise, not dictate. Like I said to Tashi I'd like to think we're all responsible enough to understand our dogs and their boundaries. Accidents happen but the same could happen if a dog has never had rough play in its life.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

problem is sequeena, there are a lot of people out there that "think" they know their dogs and "think" they are clever playing in this fashion, when in fact they dont know their dogs or the dogs limits, and dont have a clue about real training. and there are more of this type than the educated dog owner, The rescues are full of dogs that have been owned by this type of person, if everyone on here said its ok to play fight with dogs and nobody dissagreed(which I do) it would be taken that it is perfectly ok, and one day someone is going to get seriously hurt I for one would hate to think that the owner of the dog that inflicted a serious injury had read a post I made on a forum and it influenced them in this way.

Mo


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

moboyd said:


> problem is sequeena, there are a lot of people out there that "think" they know their dogs and "think" they are clever playing in this fashion, when in fact they dont know their dogs or the dogs limits, and dont have a clue about real training. and there are more of this type than the educated dog owner, The rescues are full of dogs that have been owned by this type of person, if everyone on here said its ok to play fight with dogs and nobody dissagreed(which I do) it would be taken that it is perfectly ok, and one day someone is going to get seriously hurt I for one would hate to think that the owner of the dog that inflicted a serious injury had read a post I made on a forum and it influenced them in this way.
> 
> Mo


I understand that, I'd hope anyone reading this could use their common sense, think about it, ask elsewhere if needs be and make up their own mind what is best for their dog.

My mum's JRT I would never rough play. Not because she's small but she is very people aggressive with those she doesn't know. One wrong move from a child wanting to play could result in horrendous injuries.

I have weighed up both pros and cons with my dogs and have decided that yes, rough play sometimes is perfectly fine with boundaries. I don't do it with the eldest as she is nearing 13.

Maybe I should start adding disclaimers of "By the way, don't take my advice as god given".


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## sketch (Sep 19, 2009)

with my lot its not a good idea, lol, Libby is nervous and would have cardiac arrest, Kane is dead goofy and gets too excited, and with Dalton i spend most of my time training and channelling his drives, i find this keeps him calm.
Play fighting would get him hyped up and he would knock me flying, chase the neigbours cat or worse the devil haha.
xx


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## tiddlypup (Oct 4, 2008)

ive had more arguments with pratts who have come up to my big dogs and think its great to do the rough em up thing in the face,my other half was fairly new to the dogs and soon learnt to instigate games with toys only and end the game on a good note
those of you who like rough housing ive got one here for ya,you wouldnt stop him,had a 14 yr old rough him in the face,i asked him not too and was told "im only f******g playing" claude has a very very high prey drive and will bite,sad thing is i see the lad walking round with a young rotti
i really dont think we should play fight,theres loads of safe bonding activities to do with your dogs


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

tiddlypup said:


> ive had more arguments with pratts who have come up to my big dogs and think its great to do the rough em up thing in the face,my other half was fairly new to the dogs and soon learnt to instigate games with toys only and end the game on a good note
> those of you who like rough housing ive got one here for ya,you wouldnt stop him,had a 14 yr old rough him in the face,i asked him not too and was told "im only f******g playing" claude has a very very high prey drive and will bite,sad thing is i see the lad walking round with a young rotti
> i really dont think we should play fight,theres loads of safe bonding activities to do with your dogs


That is just daft. Some people take it above and beyond. I would never do it to any other dogs apart from my own, especially if told not to. It takes all sorts I suppose.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

tiddlypup said:


> ive had more arguments with pratts who have come up to my big dogs and think its great to do the rough em up thing in the face,


I used to get that when out with my dear departed Weimaraner, Lacey. She was a rescue dog, having had no formal training when I got her at two years old. The only things she knew were that 'heel' meant 'pull like a steam train with your nose on the floor' and that someone approaching her with hands outstretched meant that she had to stand up on her hind legs and start playfighting with her huge, heavy paws with their thick, hard claws raking them down their arms and leaving long red marks to match the bruises they were also likely to incur. It took three weeks of patient training to get her out of that habit so as you can imagine, I did not find it all funny if some eejit tried to encourage her to do it again! I stayed polite (just) but they were left in no doubt about my feelings on the subject!


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## Road_Hog (Dec 8, 2008)

Well, I skimmed the last few replies but read most of the earlier post this afternoon. I read a number of, " I know best, I'm a breeder/trainer been in the business for 2 months and you're just an owner, what do you know". Well, puppies/dogs are like children and if professionals (at looking after and knowing behaviour) were the best, I'd ask why social workers get it so wrong so often (I mean they're the professional paid equivalent carers in the human world, so being paid to do something doesn't make you the best). I've had dogs for 16 years and I like to think I'm fairly experienced. I do play fighting, it's great interaction for the dog and I think most responsible owners know how to teach their dogs instinctively, just how as parents to children we know how to bring them up without formal training. Play fighting and aggression are two completely different things. I'd also go as far to say, that dog owners (guardians) are better than those that deal with dogs professionally, because they have a love of animals (I'm not saying breeders/trainers don't) and that they (dogs) are not a commodity but part of the family. If you want to take that to an extreme, look at farmers who deal with animals all their lives and have more experience than any, but livestock or working dogs are there for a reason and aren't part of the family like pets are. Or greyhound owners that breed them and discard them. I have two dogs, I treat them both differently, the young one I play fight with and trust completely with small children, other dogs and adults because she is completely submissive with other dogs or soppy with humans. However I know if she got near a cat, rabbit or squirrel she'd tear it apart. The old one could be left with cats etc. because she grew up with them and ignores them, but I wouldn't leave her with a small child because she can be crabby and whilst I don't think she'd do anything, I can't be 100% sure. To say that we can't understand our dogs and that they will all be unpredictable is ridiculous, if you live with an animal day in day out for years, you observe the subtleties and nuances of them. I'm not saying everyone is perfectly placed to understand their dog and know exactly their temperament, but then that will be the same whether they play fight or not. Now I'm more than happy to defend my position/opinion and have a rational debate but I have noticed a few 'sharp' replies by those that hold a different view. Please understand that I will respond in kind in the same manner as replies. In plain English, that means if your reply is rather curt and rude, don't be upset when you get the same back.


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

The gist of the OP was 'Is there any problems with playfighting with your dogs'.

The answer is obviously - well it is entirely up to you, but experience shows that it can cause problems, particularly when dogs with the 'wrong' attitude are wound up by playfighting.

It is up to everyone to decide what is right for them and their dogs, some people get a lot of pleasure playing 'rough', but if you play rough you need to know the risks involved.

I have been around dogs a long time, but I do not profess to be better than anyone else, there is always stuff to be learnt, new methods, ideas and training is changing at a very fast rate.

I too read the Barbara Woodhouse books - she has an important place in the histroy of training, the first person to let the public know they could train their dogs - albeit old fashioned, she started the ball rolling - her methods are totally arcahic now and I wouldn't recommend her to anyone.

I also had the pleasure of knowing John Holmes and his wife Mary, when I lived and worked as a dog warden in the New Forest, another one of the first trainers in the UK, along with Peter Lewis - all pioneers, all changed how we thought about our dogs.

However, what has always been constant, amid the evolving world of training, is the probelms encountered with 'rough' play with our dogs.

Everyone will do what they think, but the information is out there, your choice whether you choose to heed it or not....

Kate


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> re road-hog -
> _ ...I think most responsible owners know how to teach their dogs instinctively,
> * just... as parents to children we know how to bring (children) up without formal
> training. * Play fighting and aggression are two completely different things. _


hey, road! :--)

re play-fighting vs aggro between 2 dogs, 
who have a considerable shared grammar of signals to help prevent aggro, and who as a species work quite hard to avoid un-necessary aggro, it is not at all uncommon to have a session of rough play slide seamlessly into a real fight -  with real injuries.

dogs have that wonderful shared language of gestures and postures, which we humans lack - so i would say the chances of a catastrophic misunderstanding between humans and dogs, or dogs and humans, is much greater than between dogs. 
as we know it happens between dogs, it is IMO inevitable between humans and dogs, at least sometimes, and far-more likely.

 instinct in handling dogs - 
i have no idea where U stand re the aversives/harsh handling debate, but the Dog-Shouter is one of those who actually states, 
* he (handles) using his instincts - gut-hunches, if U will - to know what is best. *

 as a Certified Vets-Assistant,  
i can state emphatically as a health-care professional who is familiar with dog physiology and behavior, 
that * very little learning goes on in a dog who is anoxic, with a blue-tongue, heart racing ineffectively, pupils blown, etc; 
the dogs body is fighting to keep the brain and vital organs *Alive!*, without enough O2 for the non-essential parts 
(like thinking and learning, or even digesting - which is why dogs after a spell of lack-of-O2 are likely to puke, 
and are at risk of inhalation pneumonia). *

 instincts only take one so far -  
dogs who attempt to bury un-consumed food in a S/S bowl by scrubbing their noses bloody on the wall-to-wall 
are not stoopid - my late Akita was so intelligent, her training was considerably complicated by her out-thinking 
me as a pup. yet she would do this - try to *bury* her bowl with an un-rumpleable carpet... 
that was instinct, dogs did not evolve with wall-to-wall, not her fault or failing. (shrug)

as for instinct and rearing children well, after producing them - 
not to shock anyone, but the odds of a parent killing their child are many, many times greater than 
their child being killed by a stranger.

the odds of a boyfriend killing his GFs children, who are no blood-kin of his, are downright frightening; 
* the odds of both risks (parents killing, abusing or maiming their children, and boyfriends killing, abusing 
or maiming a GFs kids), are statistically light-years beyond the risk to the children of any dog... 
parents or BFs vastly out-strip the risk of any dog-bite or dog-mauling or dog-attack on those children. * 
i can get stats on the parent:child risk - but it is an ugly subject, frankly. 

_ yet no one agitates to ban boyfriends - _ and many people agitate to ban breeds, 
*to protect our kids*, unquote. :huh: this is an emotional and also illogical campaign - 
which continues. hmy:

there is an old saying that is still true - 
* any tomcat can be a sire, but toms do not make fathers. * 
i am sure many of us have met parents of whom we can only say, *_ those poor kids... _ *. ~ sigh... ~ 
in many ways, instinct is amazing, wonderful and useful - but it has glaring inadequacies, too. 
humans have very few instincts; almost everything we know, we have learnt.

i have had the chance to attend seminars, teleconferences, multi-day conferences, webinars, etc, 
which were not open to pet-owners; i also have a library of over 200 titles, just in dogs (books) - 
not counting DVDs, etc, and yes, i read and watched every one. 
i have been training long-enuf to have begun when choke-chains were SOP, and am very glad 
indeed that they are no longer seen as useful or helpful, let alone necessary. 
i vastly prefer to teach what i want, than to waste time attempting to stomp-out the un-wanted behaviors. 

i would imagine most of my peers feel much the same - 
relieved that the punitive means we grew-up with are now regarded as primitive, 
and happy to have more effective, efficient, and humane modern methods? 
but i can speak only for myself. :thumbup: 
all my best, 
--- terry


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Why do people compare bringing a dog up to bringing children up??


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

I agree with Mo, always good posts by Mo!

I don't think its anything to do with play fighting = aggression. More defining the line of when play fighting needs to stop and ensuring that the dog understands and will obey that.

My dog just wouldn't understand where that line is, and if he did, and was told to stop, he wouldn't stop if my family asked him to, only if I did, which kind of defeats the object.

You just have to make sure you know where the line is, you follow it through every time, and that the dog will listen when told to stop. Problem with my boy is he always asks to play, like with his toys etc, but I'm the only person he responds to when I tell him to go play on his own and leave us alone. For him it would do more harm than good, especially as like a poster on this thread, my dog is rather strong minded and will take the mick at every opportunity. And in this case I think it a bad idea to play fight, hence my previous posts.

If you are confident your dog will obey you and others if your dog is likely to play with others, fine, you make sure your dog understands and off you go, but for people like me and another poster here, _I don't think it is right until you either know the dog better or have all previous problems solved_. My reasoning for not doing it is that I think it would complicate matters and send us back a few paces, which we don't need at over a year old.


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## Becki&Daisy (Oct 22, 2009)

It is all preference and it is all dependant on the dog.

We play fight with Daisy. OH more roughly than I do but she loves it.
She clings on to his arm and just goes side to side with his arm. 
She won't even rest her teeth on your arm. She doesnt bite, she just likes to catch your hand with her little paws 

If we put our hands in her mouth she doesn't do a thing again she won't even rest her teeth on your hand.
If a dog was snapping or biting i wouldn't play fight.


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## ally (Feb 5, 2009)

Our dogs play fight together and when out occasionally people have thought they were fighting.... usually non-doggy people though; I would never playfight with my dogs whatever the age, breed etc. and most trainers would tell people not to as it is hard then for dogs EVEN WELL TRAINED ONES to differentiate and can cause problems.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Sequeena I'd just like to say that I think you are doing just fine. You don't just accept things, you question them and that's good to see. 

 Eventually I will be falling behind on my dog behaviour knowledge I expect as I am not updating or it or investigating recent studies as much. But that's ok, as long as I have helped people and saved dogs lives over the 36 years I have been interested in training and behaviour then I am happy. Unfortunately the illness I have affects cognitive abilities as one of its symptoms so I find it hard to concentrate on new learning and actually take it in and remember it. 

Now, who's only been doing it as a business for two months and is claiming to know more than a pet owner etc or have I missed something?  I did look back, honest!


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## Maistaff (Dec 27, 2009)

Do i play fight with my dogs ?

ermmm yes and no. 

IMO its something that can both benifit the dog as well as give rise to pushing a dog over the edge. Kind of like walking a tight rope. 

When i play with my dogs i ensure that i can quickly clam them down as quick as i get them hyped up. 

But in all honesty play fighting is not something i do on a regular basis possibly once in a blue moon. I prefer to stimulate my dogs in other ways other than play fighting


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Sequeena I'd just like to say that I think you are doing just fine. You don't just accept things, you question them and that's good to see.
> 
> Eventually I will be falling behind on my dog behaviour knowledge I expect as I am not updating or it or investigating recent studies as much. But that's ok, as long as I have helped people and saved dogs lives over the 36 years I have been interested in training and behaviour then I am happy. Unfortunately the illness I have affects cognitive abilities as one of its symptoms so I find it hard to concentrate on new learning and actually take it in and remember it.
> 
> Now, who's only been doing it as a business for two months and is claiming to know more than a pet owner etc or have I missed something?  I did look back, honest!


Thanks Caroline, I've already learnt a lot from this thread that I didn't know before 

I'm sorry to hear about your illness 

I think I must have missed that bit too 

Oh and just to mention play fighting isn't the ONLY thing I do  I do a lot of scenting with Sky and then a lot of general games like fetch, hide and seek etc with all 3


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

Jo P said:


> Why do people compare bringing a dog up to bringing children up??


Because they are remarkably similar!!!

I got my first dog in 1985 and was lucky enough to get involved in training and behaviour - teaching others (mainly pet dog training and competition obedience), eventually working with dogs until 2004, when I had my first (and only child).

All my experience on learning theory and behaviour modification related to dogs, in my last job I was extremely involved in training dogs for a purpose.

I knew absolutely nothing about children and never thought I would have to! However, the similarities are staggering - the way children learn, they way they need clear boundaries, expectations etc. etc.

I have actually 'shaped' my child, as I would a dog. She is now five, very bright and has only ever had one 'melt down' in her life, which was at home, when I changed something in the environment she wasn't happy with.

I have never compared dogs to children on here, but totally understand why people do!!!

Kate


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## Sophs (Nov 30, 2009)

We always had play-fights with our dogs! Never my Mum though. :huh:

In fact, me and my brother used to team up with the dogs (one child & one dog per team) and have mass wrestling matches on our parents kingsize! We had a Lab and a German Sheppard, and always argued over who got to have the Lab on their side... simply because she was the best wrestler. 

I can't remember ever getting hurt. :wink:

Saying that, we have actively discouraged it in our current Lab. She's two now and still tries it every now and then (mainly because my brother just *won't* stop encouraging her. ).

We did this because there are little ones around now, and Pye just doesn't get that there's a difference between big people and small people; she wants to play with them *all*... especially the small ones; they make funny noises and run around a lot, it's great fun. :001_rolleyes:

It comes down to individual choice, I guess. But, if it was me... well, as your dog is obviously in the habit of playing rough then you should continue to spend that time with him, so long as he understands that he should NEVER play like that with anyone else. If there's ever any doubt about that then he should be stopped because it's just not worth the risk of someone misunderstanding and demanding you have your dog put down. :crying:

Can you imagine how bad you would feel? I understand your instinctual need to playfight with them; it's been really tough to restrain myself from playfighting with Pye, but for her sake and others I've managed it. The result is that I have a dog who loves cuddles more than any dog I've ever known!! :001_tt1:

P.S - Please excuse any ridiculous spelling errors. It's late, and Christmas was *exhausting*! :blush:


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## D-Nova (Dec 28, 2009)

Dogs play fight in the wild, both for fun, and to learn new techniques in defending themselves / attacking prey, I think it is ok to playfight a little, but as long as the dog knows that it is only a game. Also, you should win all the time because otherwise if the dog wins, the dog might think that he/she is a more dominant animal and so might become troublesome in other areas because the dog knows he/she can dominate you. If you can keep it under control, then go for it, dogs love it because it is very natural for them.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Domestic dogs do not exist in the wild. They are not the same thing at all.

My dogs playfight between themselves. That's fine because they are all dogs, they understand how to play like dogs. I do not, neither do many humans.

Please anyone reading this who is unsure,* DO NOT PLAYFIGHT WITH YOUR DOGS THINKING THAT IT IS A WAY OF ACHIEVING CONTROL AND DOMINANCE.* That is a fallacy put about by well meaning people who do not understand much about canine behaviour. <sighs and heads back to the wall whilst sticking a helmet on>


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Please anyone reading this who is unsure,* DO NOT PLAYFIGHT WITH YOUR DOGS THINKING THAT IT IS A WAY OF ACHIEVING CONTROL AND DOMINANCE.* That is a fallacy put about by well meaning people who do not understand much about canine behaviour. <sighs and heads back to the wall whilst sticking a helmet on>


Now this I agree with :thumbup1: I never roll or pin my dogs or anything else that means they are trapped and I certainly do not see it as a way to be dominant over them!


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

sequeena said:


> Now this I agree with :thumbup1: I never roll or pin my dogs or anything else that means they are trapped and I certainly do not see it as a way to be dominant over them!


I've got a spare helmet and a spare patch of wall if you fancy a head bang Sequeena? Bon Jovi, Black Sabbath or Led Zeppellin to accompany? Your choice!


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> I've got a spare helmet and a spare patch of wall if you fancy a head bang Sequeena? Bon Jovi, Black Sabbath or Led Zeppellin to accompany? Your choice!


Haha thanks it's probably wise!! And deffo will be banging my head to Bon Jovi


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## sketch (Sep 19, 2009)

shall i send you some paracetamol for your headaches ha ha, all that head banging
xx


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

sketch said:


> shall i send you some paracetamol for your headaches ha ha, all that head banging
> xx


If you send some vino with it I'll love you forever :laugh:


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## sketch (Sep 19, 2009)

sequeena said:


> If you send some vino with it I'll love you forever :laugh:


okies ha ha
xx


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

i banned all playfighting/roughhousing with kira yesterday. we have a newborn around, the OHs baby nephew, and while shes fine with him now, in a year or 2 he'll be toddling and crawling around. and yesterday when i was playing with her she bit down HARD on my arm, and wouldnt let go, i had a jumper on but if that was a baby or toddler that would be very serious. 

it wasnt a vicious bite, just an excitable play bite that went to far. so all fighting etc has been banned for the babies safety. biting me = not a major issue tbh. biting Cody = serious. rehome or PTS.

i just cant risk that. so we're back to re-teaching bite inhabition


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

sid&kira said:


> i banned all playfighting/roughhousing with kira yesterday. we have a newborn around, the OHs baby nephew, and while shes fine with him now, in a year or 2 he'll be toddling and crawling around. and yesterday when i was playing with her she bit down HARD on my arm, and wouldnt let go, i had a jumper on but if that was a baby or toddler that would be very serious.


Thanks for coming on this thread and telling us that. :wink:

Give Kira immediate 'Time Out' from now on if she does try to playfight by removing her from the room or removing yourselves, whichever is best for you. No flapping, no shouting, no negative punishments, just time out each time she gets over excited. After a few minutes allow her back in etc and then get everyone staying calm around her, rewarding her for good, calm behaviour of course. Give her something else to do like a chew, a stuffed kong etc.  I am sure that with patience and perseverence, you will all be fine.

It's a harder habit to cure than to encourage. That's why my advice to everyone will always be not to encourage playfighting with your dogs in the first place.


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## GSDlover4ever (Feb 21, 2009)

i don't really play fight with Zara, i prefer to play tug and fetch with her instead. my OH does play fight with her sometimes, but she always knows when enough is enough.

i don't allow anybody else to play fight with her and she rarely touches his skin with her teeth.


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## D-Nova (Dec 28, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Please anyone reading this who is unsure,* DO NOT PLAYFIGHT WITH YOUR DOGS THINKING THAT IT IS A WAY OF ACHIEVING CONTROL AND DOMINANCE.* That is a fallacy put about by well meaning people who do not understand much about canine behaviour.


I agree, I was not saying that it is a way of achieving dominance, but what I am saying is if you can't control your dog and be in control the whole time, then dont do it because if the dog knows then that it can win against you, problems can arise in other areas. I am not saying what WILL happen in EVERY case, but it is one of those things that can cause problems.


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

GSDlover4ever said:


> i don't really play fight with Zara, i prefer to play tug and fetch with her instead. my OH does play fight with her sometimes, but she always knows when enough is enough.
> 
> i don't allow anybody else to play fight with her and she rarely touches his skin with her teeth.


buster (OHs mums staffy x) was the same, you just had to click at him or say enough and he'd stop, and hed only fight if you had long sleeves on, if he could see skin he wouldnt play at all, just walk off.


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## GSDlover4ever (Feb 21, 2009)

sid&kira said:


> buster (OHs mums staffy x) was the same, you just had to click at him or say enough and he'd stop, and hed only fight if you had long sleeves on, if he could see skin he wouldnt play at all, just walk off.


zara never really grabs on to any piece of clothing, she mostly runs back and forth wanting us to chase her lol
or she rolls over on to her back expecting a tummy rub lol


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Thanks for coming on this thread and telling us that. :wink:
> 
> Give Kira immediate 'Time Out' from now on if she does try to playfight by removing her from the room or removing yourselves, whichever is best for you. No flapping, no shouting, no negative punishments, just time out each time she gets over excited. After a few minutes allow her back in etc and then get everyone staying calm around her, rewarding her for good, calm behaviour of course. Give her something else to do like a chew, a stuffed kong etc.  I am sure that with patience and perseverence, you will all be fine.
> 
> It's a harder habit to cure than to encourage. That's why my advice to everyone will always be not to encourage playfighting with your dogs in the first place.


thats what we're doing now. last night when it happened i immediately prised her off me, said now in a low dissapointed tone and ignored her completely. didnt remove her. no need too as she got the message. then i went round everyone in the household and told them that from now on all playfighting, however minimal was banned between humans and kira.

shes still allowed to do it with buster (her best mate) and megs (male greyhound we live with) as i consider this as normal dog play, but with humans its now strictly forbidden.

and no problem, i just thought i'd make everybody aware of how it can start off as play and then one day become serious, especially if the situation changes (like the arrival of cody)

i cant risk her biting a member of the public or a child, even if it's ment as play. while you may consider it fun and know its just play, a member of the public or a family member might not. and it could frighten and seriously injure a child.


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## Road_Hog (Dec 8, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> Please anyone reading this who is unsure,* DO NOT PLAYFIGHT WITH YOUR DOGS THINKING THAT IT IS A WAY OF ACHIEVING CONTROL AND DOMINANCE.*


 I've not seen anyone suggesting that on this thread, however I do take your point for anyone that doesn't understand play fighting, that is has to be balanced. Play fighting, or maybe rough and tumble is a better description, is not about dominance, it is about engaging with your dog and maybe standing in for sibling play time. It's not fighting, it's playing and knowing boundaries is common sense. I know common sense isn't in fashion these days and elfin safety rules, but some of us do still use a bit of nous and know what is playing and what is aggression.


sequeena said:


> Now this I agree with :thumbup1: I never roll or pin my dogs or anything else that means they are trapped and I certainly do not see it as a way to be dominant over them!


 This is a world of difference and I wouldn't recommend or condone this either, but once again, I haven't seen anyone suggest this. So back to my original point, if you have a playful dog, that knows it's play time and that knows when play time has finished and a sensible owner, it isn't an issue. If the owner isn't sensible then that's a whole new ball game. Dogs and owners with common sense = okay, owners without common sense = bad news, play fighting is a side issue.


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## ellysmith34 (Aug 5, 2009)

I never play fight with my dog but my brother does...though, It scared some of our visitors when they see them wrestling...


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