# Thoughts on the process of breeding and selling kittens from a customers point of view



## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

Hello

I am currently in the process of buying a pedigree kitten for the first time. I have come out of the whole process with mixed feelings towards the breeding world. I have read this forum with great interest since I discovered it and I thought I would post a few thoughts of my own.

I have no clue if any of the breeders that I have directly spoken with are on this forum, all those have been excellent and I don't want this post to come across as any sort of shot at any of them so I will keep this vague.

Price seems to be a topic that inspires many emotions for both customers and breeders. Do I think that all pedigree cats represent good value for the customers? No not really. But I love the breed I want and if this is what it costs to get one then I will pay it. I read the post detailing your costs with great interest, perhaps I overestimated how much breeders make on these sales - but I saved for over two years to get this cat, regardless of wether the breeder makes a pound or a hundred pounds profit on the sale, besides our house, car and upcoming wedding, this cat will still be amongst the most expensive purchases that my partner and I have ever made. I do not blame anyone for not just instantly accepting high prices for a pet that is not intended to breed or show.

I particularly do not blame some people for being uneasy about the advertised price when you consider how much risk is involved in the purchase of a pedigree cat. Now I know papers and organisations such as GCCF are very important within the pedigree community but this is still no guarantee for customers that all will be well. Unless you are part of the hardcore cat community it is very very difficult to find out information about some breeders. I am the sort of person that puts a lot of thought into purchases - if I buy a tv I will obsessively look at the different options, find the exact model I want and find what store does the best purchase. But buying this cat? It is a leap of faith. I have found two breeders within a reasonable distance from me. One has a timetable for kittens, one does not. The breeder we are currently working with seems to be a very nice lady but I can't pretend that I am 100% confident about the process. Outside of a small personal listing advertising her cattery she (and many other breeders) may as well not exist on the internet. Local cat society's? They are even less helpful online. Look some of you folks may all know each other from shows but many of your customers do not. I had a good chat with my breeder on the phone, I had researched the questions I needed to ask online before I called and I was satisfied with the answers and think that I have found a good breeder... but you can never be sure.

My parents paid a lot of money for a King Charles Spaniel. Lovely dog, came from a nice farm, they met it inside the farmhouse, they had a great chat with the breeders, they took it home, took it to the vet all was great. Until it turned out the little dog developed behavior issues. The vet and behavior therapist that worked with the dog refused to put it down as it was generally such a nice dog, the dog trainer felt so strongly about this that she actually re-homed the dog and took it as her own pet. Even that failed. Police found out that the nice idyllic breeder had a puppy farm + sacks of cocaine in a barn. The dog never had a chance. 

All that I am saying is please forgive customers for not instantly assuming that every breeder is a saint, who just about breaks even for the love of the breed. Some breeders have a list of expectations right from the outside - the cat has to be neutered, the cat must not go outside etc I have even saw some breeders (thankfully not many) who said on their site that home visits will never be allowed.. This is a lot easier to accept when it is explained rather that set out as a bunch of bullet points. 

I have also read breeders complaining about customers who want updates on the cats development, pics etc. Maybe some of you folks agree with this sentiment - I am afraid that I have no sympathy for you. If I am going to spend £500+ plus on an animal? I most certainly want as much information as reasonably possible. I will not be pestering my breeder, but I fully expect updates on the cats progress. I get minutely updates on the progress of a £5 Dominos pizza. A 3 line email per week is a perfectly reasonable expectation when buying a £500+ cat.

I suspect this is just a problem with the pedigree scene in general I am also a bit perturbed by what I would describe as a snooty attitude within the community. I was very disappointed to read phrases such as "filthy tomcat" more than once on even this site. If the extremely expensive pedigree kitten that I am about to get grows into half as good a cat as the previously abused tom cat we saved from a council pound when I was a kid, then it will be a fantastic pet.

And yet while I have just given some breeders an absolute pasting. Many of you folks seem wonderful, inspirational people. Some of the stories I have read of sacrifices made in order to keep breeding, how hard you have worked to keep kittens alive and healthy it really is fantastic reading that often makes me feel emotional. I would even be interested in getting casually involved the show scene. I am buying this cat as a pet, so it probably wouldn't be allowed to particulate in shows (it may have a toe with different coloured fur or something silly  ), but it would be nice to meet some of the fantastic breeders and their pets.

I have wanted this specific breed of cat for sentimental reasons since I was a child. I am about to settle into my first home with my fiancee in a few weeks, she has never had a cat but absolutely loves watching videos of them etc and she is really looking forward to getting a kitten (I suspect this poor kitten is going to end up with an Instagram page  ) I always loved the look of this cat, but as we have researched it, it has become very clear that temperament wise this cat is our soul mate (we pretty much want something that will sleep on our lap all day while watching tv and that will be very affectionate) so that was a very happy coincidence. I will no doubt get it a friend at some point, whilst there is another pedigree breed that I adore, I feel very bad for the cats sitting in rescues so its future brother or sister will almost certainly be a moggy.

I have not massively approved of everything that I have saw as I researched the breeder scene... but some of you folks amaze me. Please keep up the good work... and post many many many more pics.

My main takeaway from all this has been that I wish there was more information about breeders online. From an outsider pov it is not easy to tell a good breeder from a bad breeder. Many (like me before I did research) do not understand things like GCCF or the different forms of paperwork so a breeder namedropping GCCF once on a listing is not always very helpful. I think that more things like the the GCCF Breeder Scheme would be helpful. I like the idea of this scheme but sadly it wasn't of any help in my case as none of the breeders I can work with are signed up. The more information that is available online, the better for both breeders and customers in my opinion.

Regards,

Smudge


PS, And for the love of god update your websites! It helps! A lot!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Smuge said:


> Do I think that all pedigree cats represent good value for the customers? No not really.


Words fail me. Cats & kittens are companion animals which are a luxury, unlike working animals or inanimate objects.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> Words fail me. Cats & kittens are companion animals which are a luxury, unlike working animals or inanimate objects.


And words equally fail me with this response.

£500-£1000 for anything is a very significant luxury. If a cat from a good breeder is £400 and another breeder down the road sells a cat with a similar upbringing and background for £600 does that make both an equally reasonable price? no. Some of you folks are far too sensitive about any comment about price. For some people these prices represent years of saving. That £200 difference may not be a lot to you, but it is a lot to me. I did not suggest that breeders should be forced to haggle over prices or have price wars, but for me it is undeniable that some breeders are more realistically priced than others. This does not strike me as a particularly controversial statement.

Not every cat for sale is reasonably priced, I would not have thought this would be a shocking revelation.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I suspect that Oriental Slave was making the point that a breeder is entitled to charge whatever they wish for one of their kittens. In the same way they are entitled to choose who buys their kittens and are even at liberty to refuse a potential purchaser however much they offer to pay. A pedigree kitten is not a compulsory purchase. Pet cats are not essential items like food and clothing but even these latter items have a wide range of price. (At the risk of straying into a territory of which I know literally nothing, I believe that designer clothes can cost astronomical amounts of money compared to the basic clothing I always buy.)

Even if you are determined to judge prices purely in terms of 'value' how can you tell if you are making the mistake of comparing apples with pears? 

I would caution against using the internet exclusively to research your kitten. It would be far better to attend a show and talk to breeders and exhibitors and then you may form more of an idea how the whole process works.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I think I'm going to end up writing an equally long reply! I'm a cat breeder and have shown/bred BSH for 30 years. This is topical for me, following a phone call this morning from one of my previous 'customers' - I'll use that word as you've done so but I never think of my kittens new or potential owners as customers.

Allow me to turn it around and give you my thoughts on the process, etc, from a breeder's point of view.

I clearly put the mockers on myself by saying to a friend just last week that I don't seem to have a problem with finding the loveliest new owners for my kittens and what a good 'radar' I had after all these years. Phone call this morning from one of my kittens owners; she had the kitten, a female, from me last Autumn at 13 weeks old as a pet. She opened with 'why doesn't my kitten have breeding rights?' I explained politely, assuming she now wanted to breed from the cat instead of being the neutered pet she was meant to be. I was wrong. She asked could it be changed to breeding rights, I explained 'no' and the reason why. I won't bore you with all of the long, difficult and upsetting conversation which followed but this is it in a nutshell....

The kitten loves her but is very shy of strangers - a big problem apparently. The biggest problem of all is that the owner decided at some point that, as she has a home abroad, she would like to take the cat with her, back and forth. But the cat doesn't travel well. This, and I'm using all her words, not mine, is going to cramp her lifestyle and make things difficult.. she was a very expensive purchase on top of which she has spent hundreds of pounds on things for her as well as getting her Pet Passport etc. And anyway, she doesn't like strange people so her visitors can't see her when they visit. So her plan is to sell her for breeding (hence her asking me if the registration could be changed) for a lot more than she paid so that she can recoup more of her outlay. Why couldn't she try to make all her money back as, after all, I'm in the business of breeding and make money from it. Right?

I pleaded with her not to do that, I told her that I would buy the kitten back from her for the full amount. She is going to 'think about it'. I don't think I have a hope in hell of getting that poor kitten back with me - at any cost because the woman is now thoroughly disgusted, she says, at my attitude and I've upset her by not being agreeable. God knows where the kitten will end up.

So, Smudge, I find it hard to have any sympathy with your concerns over who is a good breeder and who is a bad breeder. We breeders can have just as much trouble telling a potentially good owner from a bad one. You would definitely be on my list as a bad one; the number of £ signs in your comments says it all.

Edited to add - as a longshot, if it's a BSH you are interested in, you are most welcome to my breeding prefix and web address etc so that you may avoid me like the plague.


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## Erenya (Jul 22, 2014)

To be honest, you can go to a rescue and pick up a kitten for £70. So if you're looking at the purchase purely from a cost to function balance, then no it's not 'worth' the money. After all, you can by a Rolex for £10k or a cheap watch for £5. They both tell the time, so if you only looked at 'price' then no one would ever buy a Rolex, but they do.

From a marketing perspective (my job), price and value are two very different concepts. If you perceive the value in something then you will pay the asked price for it, it's that simple. Price is assessed by the seller based on the perceived value and can take in many aspects. With pedigree cats it could be the length of the pedigree, the fact that all their queens/studs have tested negative for genetic conditions, the champion status of mum or dad. At the very base level it could be supply and demand. If you are the only breeder of that breed in that area, you can charge more than if there are 6 others surrounding you.

The fact is that value is what people are willing to pay, so for the person willing to pay then yes, the cat IS worth is. If genuinely love, and have your have your heart set on, that particular breed (or a rolex) and you can afford it, then of course your new pet (or watch) is worth what you pay


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

QOTN said:


> *I suspect that Oriental Slave was making the point that a breeder is entitled to charge whatever they wish* for one of their kittens. In the same way they are entitled to choose who buys their kittens and are even at liberty to refuse a potential purchaser however much they offer to pay. A pedigree kitten is not a compulsory purchase. Pet cats are not essential items like food and clothing but even these latter items have a wide range of price. (At the risk of straying into a territory of which I know literally nothing, I believe that designer clothes can cost astronomical amounts of money compared to the basic clothing I always buy.)
> 
> Even if you are determined to judge prices purely in terms of 'value' how can you tell if you are making the mistake of comparing apples with pears?
> 
> I would caution against using the internet exclusively to research your kitten. It would be far better to attend a show and talk to breeders and exhibitors and then you may form more of an idea how the whole process works.


Quite right, of course they are. But equally buyers can make a decision that in some cases people ask too much.

i dislike sounding quite so capitalist about a cat... but the sums of money involved can be so large. I did not haggle with the breeder I have been in discussions with, the price is high but I always knew it would be, we discussed the price for about 20 seconds. As I said I took a lot away from this - http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/cost-of-breeding.215985/


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## Erenya (Jul 22, 2014)

@gskinner123 what a very sad story, I really hope you get the kitten back


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Smuge said:


> Quite right, of course they are. But equally buyers can make a decision that in some cases people ask too much.
> i dislike sounding quite so capitalist about a cat... but the sums of money involved can be so large. I did not haggle with the breeder I have been in discussions with, the price is high but I always knew it would be, we discussed the price for about 20 seconds. As I said I took a lot away from this - http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/cost-of-breeding.215985/


The original post in your link is 5 years old. I believe the OP is a BSH breeder. BSH are a very well established breed and with a good gene pool. Other breeds may require expensive imports to ensure the future of the breed. This is just one possible example of apples and pears.

I notice you have not mentioned my point that a breeder is entitled to refuse any potential purchaser if they are not satisfied they will make a good owner. G Skinner made a very fair comment in that context which I fully endorse.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

gskinner123 said:


> I think I'm going to end up writing an equally long reply! I'm a cat breeder and have shown/bred BSH for 30 years. This is topical for me, following a phone call this morning from one of my previous 'customers' - I'll use that word as you've done so but I never think of my kittens new or potential owners as customers.
> 
> Allow me to turn it around and give you my thoughts on the process, etc, from a breeder's point of view.
> 
> ...


Customers is an unfortunate term but when the subject is about sales of cats frankly its the best term I could think of.

Do not worry I would not be troubling you anyway after this post.

Ensuring that the price feels reasonable is important to me I make absolutely no apology for that. I am not a rich person, I saved for years to get a pedigree cat and thinking that the financial side of purchasing a cat is important does not make a bad person nor does it make me a bad pet owner and I deeply resent the accusation.

You have concerns with a buyer this is unfortunatel. Yet there are also plenty of substandard breeders around, you may have "no sympathy with this" but I can assure you that is it an issue. The OP was not meant in an ill spirit.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

QOTN said:


> The original post in your link is 5 years old. I believe the OP is a BSH breeder. BSH are a very well established breed and with a good gene pool. Other breeds may require expensive imports to ensure the future of the breed. This is just one possible example of apples and pears.
> 
> I notice you have not mentioned my point that a breeder is entitled to refuse any potential purchaser if they are not satisfied they will make a good owner. G Skinner made a very fair comment in that context which I fully endorse.


5 years old or not I thought it was a very good post that I have no argument with, I don't see your issue?

I did not respond to it no because I had no argument with it. Of course a breeder has the right not to sell a cat and to refuse a purchaser. But that is not in any way my issue, I did not in any way reference about that in the OP. Nor have I have never had any issues with the breeders I contacted, over price or any other subject if that is what you are suggesting. I really don't see why I am getting so much blowback over this price point,- All I am suggesting is that especially within breeds some people may find some listings and catteries better value that others. I really do not see why this is such a dramatic suggestion.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Thank you, Erenya. Sorry for the rant, I just read Smudge's post on the wrong day.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

Erenya said:


> To be honest, you can go to a rescue and pick up a kitten for £70. So if you're looking at the purchase purely from a cost to function balance, then no it's not 'worth' the money. After all, you can by a Rolex for £10k or a cheap watch for £5. They both tell the time, so if you only looked at 'price' then no one would ever buy a Rolex, but they do.
> 
> From a marketing perspective (my job), price and value are two very different concepts. If you perceive the value in something then you will pay the asked price for it, it's that simple. Price is assessed by the seller based on the perceived value and can take in many aspects. With pedigree cats it could be the length of the pedigree, the fact that all their queens/studs have tested negative for genetic conditions, the champion status of mum or dad. At the very base level it could be supply and demand. If you are the only breeder of that breed in that area, you can charge more than if there are 6 others surrounding you.
> 
> The fact is that value is what people are willing to pay, so for the person willing to pay then yes, the cat IS worth is. If genuinely love, and have your have your heart set on, that particular breed (or a rolex) and you can afford it, then of course your new pet (or watch) is worth what you pay


Again, all that I have suggested is that someone could see two similar listings of healthy kittens with a good upbringing and healthy family but a significant price gap and think the cat priced at £500 represents better value to them than the cat priced at £700. I am not running around offering people 50 quid for a 600 cat or trying to push breeders into discounts.

I really did not think the point of the OP was a long complaint about money, I just said that I do not think that every single listing is value for money. I am sorry if I have offended people but I am quite exasperated with all this.

I found a breeder with the breed I was looking for at a price I was able to pay. She told me the price and I said no problem that was the full extend of the financial discussion. Some of you seem to have decided that I am a bad person and unsuitable cat owner just because I think that some listings are overpriced, but I love the breed and have wanted one since I was a child. If all goes well I will have a kitten in a few weeks - it will be loved to death and no (apparently it needs to be said) I do not intend it put it on an aeroplane every weekend and I do not intend to use it as some sort of backyard breeder.

Disagree with me that is fine, point out that people can charge what they like (I never suggested they shouldn't) but don't jump to suggestions that somehow I don't care about my pets or that I would drag a shy cat on a constant tour of europe. It is unfair and frankly it is hurtful.

If I did not care about cats I would just have saw an add on facebook and bought one in a carpark. I saved for 2 years not just to be able to buy the cat but to ensure I have no problem getting all the supply's I would need and ensure that I would have pet insurance etc from day 1. Sweeping assumptions about being a bad person because just because you disagree with a forum post is highly unnecessarily.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I never said you were a bad person. You have my apologies if I didn't word it clearly enough - reading all you've said, for me, you would be a 'bad prospect' as an owner. Breeders do not usually have the benefit of obtaining as much insight into a potential owner as you have written here. That's all really.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Smuge said:


> And words equally fail me with this response.
> 
> £500-£1000 for anything is a very significant luxury. If a cat from a good breeder is £400 and another breeder down the road sells a cat with a similar upbringing and background for £600 does that make both an equally reasonable price? no. Some of you folks are far too sensitive about any comment about price. For some people these prices represent years of saving. That £200 difference may not be a lot to you, but it is a lot to me. I did not suggest that breeders should be forced to haggle over prices or have price wars, but for me it is undeniable that some breeders are more realistically priced than others. This does not strike me as a particularly controversial statement.
> 
> Not every cat for sale is reasonably priced, I would not have thought this would be a shocking revelation.


You don't seem to get it. It's the idea of talking about 'good value' for a pet, a companion animal, and yes a luxury. There's no reason we should all charge the same amount - we live in different places, we have different vets, some of us import which is very, very expensive. If you think pedigree cats in the UK are expensive look at the prices charged in other countries - the US for example. Some of us can afford more luxurious luxuries than others, that's life.


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## Erenya (Jul 22, 2014)

I'm pretty sure no one said the OP was a bad person... I'm just trying to say that I'm sure the person charging £750 has, in their mind, a very good reason why they came to that figure. Perhaps there's a legitimate reason for the extra


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Full disclosure: I'm not a cat breeder.

Also - I can't believe Domino's would sell a pizza for £5 - they are trucking expensive.

I read your opening post and I *do* get what you're saying. I do not necessarily agree with it all, and I do think the 'comparing apples with pears' analogy already used by some of the posters above applies to some of it, but I do honestly get where you're coming from.

I have never purchased a pedigree cat, but I do think it must be a difficult thing to do well.

Through my line of work I have encountered a number of cat breeders and, to be honest, the vast majority of them have not been as conscientious as I would like should I be considering them when purchasing a kitten. Not bad people, not necessarily all about money or uncaring, just not very conscientious: no or very minimal health testing in place... sending kittens to new homes while still what I would consider too young... poor understanding of common feline health conditions (especially infectious diseases). There is no reason for me having encountered mostly 'substandard' (I hesitated to use that word, but cannot think of an alternative right now) breeders other than chance, and I'm in no doubt that there are excellent ones out there.

In this day and age it is tempting and perhaps intuitive to dive straight onto the internet to conduct research into cat breeders, but (as you have found) this may be unrewarding. I understand your comparison with researching a television purchase, but I'm sure you can see that this is flawed: the majority of cat breeders are not a business, per se. They do not need to utilise the internet in the same way as a shop or service provider does in order to advertise their 'products' (another poor choice of word, for which I apologise) nor to provide the level of information a business would need to provide. Opening hours, special offers, product guarantees etc are inapplicable when you are breeding cats and a website probably doesn't need to be as detailed as if you were selling, I don't know, personalised bicycle pumps.

Someone above (was it @QOTN?) suggested attending shows as a way of researching breeders. This is a long-winded but superior way of starting, or maybe even completing, one's search for a kitten. TBH, if I was ever in the market for a pedigree cat my starting point would probably be this forum, as there are a few breeders on here whose opinions I trust and I know I could count on their recommendations. It's a 'market' (can't find my words at all tonight) that could thrive more through word of mouth rather than traditional 'customer'-facing websites.

I take your point about wanting updates on a kitten. This has come up before on here and I completely understand the view of breeders who cannot or would rather not provide updates, although I must confess I would want them if I was purchasing a kitten. I guess I wouldn't *need* them - just want them! 

Overall, it seems your tendency is to draw comparisons between purchasing a kitten with buying a TV or a pizza. I know that you know these comparisons are nonsensical, and that you know there is no comparison between the kitten itself with a TV or a pizza. But this is one of the 'apples and pears' situations we've mentioned. But millennials grew up with the internet and are used to it answering all our questions (I am borderline millennial myself) - that it is not useful for some things seems foreign to us but isn't exactly wrong, if you see what I mean.

As for the 'filthy tomcat' point, I don't know the source for that but would hazard a guess that it's come up in threads about people letting their cats out to breed indiscriminately. I own a formerly filthy tomcat who is now happily neutered, and have categorically never experienced any negative comments about him from pedigree cat breeders on here. Had he been entire and had I decided against neutering him, I quite rightly would have been keelhauled by breeders and non-breeders alike on here, although I don't suspect anyone would have considered him filthy - just my ethics!

Thanks for writing an articulate post, by the way. We don't see as many as I'd like on here these days!


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> You don't seem to get it. It's the idea of talking about 'good value' for a pet, a companion animal, and yes a luxury. There's no reason we should all charge the same amount - we live in different places, we have different vets, some of us import which is very, very expensive. If you think pedigree cats in the UK are expensive look at the prices charged in other countries - the US for example. Some of us can afford more luxurious luxuries than others, that's life.


But im not saying people shouldnt charge more this is my frustration and this has all got a bit muddled.

Some breeders can charge more of course they can but for some of us its fair to question the value of this. I did not just call up and enquire about the cheapest cat I could find... the price is actually somewhere in the middle. The op really wasnt meant to all be about price tho...

Touch a lot of wood (if it falls through I will probably be heartbroken) i am getting a healthy little kitten from a good home. It is GCCF registered which helps me feel better about the health issues that come with the breed as family history can be traced. For me this is the "value" in a pedigree cat. I just want a pet we can hopefully love for the next 20 years. I personally wouldnt pay the extra money some may ask for a cat that comes from for exmaple a great show cat mother but is still being advertised as a pet rather than future showcat- just do not see how this impacts a pet who will sleep on my lap for a decade.

Half the problem is the use of words like value and customer. I knew customer was bad when I was writing it but still dont know what the better word is? Do you adopt from a breeder?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Smuge said:


> Half the problem is the use of words like value and customer. I knew customer was bad when I was writing it but still dont know what the better word is? Do you adopt from a breeder?


'Buyer'? 'Potential owner'?


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Full disclosure: I'm not a cat breeder.
> 
> Also - I can't believe Domino's would sell a pizza for £5 - they are trucking expensive.
> 
> ...


I know buying a cat isnt like buying a tv im not saying it is... i suspect this is were people are getting me wrong.

With the exception of the pizza and development of the kitten update comparison (which is a silly but imo kinda effective comparison in that im asking for a "all was great this week, growing fast, see you next" email) im merely comparing the "business" side of finding a breeder to finding something like a tv, not the picking a kitten part.

My point with the tv thing is that i wana know were the kitten came from, what past customers (ew that word again) had to say, how helpful was the breeder when you got it home... that kind of find. Thats not the "omg i love this kitten to death" side of getting a cat, its the I wanna make sure everything is ok and above board side of it.

Unfortunatly I live in an area were everything isnt quite as organised as others. But I have asked around and I even emailed the GCCF... im pretty certain my breeder is a good egg just a bit old fashioned. All communication I have had has been great... it the process leading up to that which I found frustrating.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Smuge said:


> I know buying a cat isnt like buying a tv im not saying it is... .


I know you weren't, I was just suggesting that the comparison isn't all that relevant - but I think you know that!


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> I know you weren't, I was just suggesting that the comparison isn't all that relevant - but I think you know that!


I think its one of those things that sound better in your head.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

Erenya said:


> I'm pretty sure no one said the OP was a bad person... I'm just trying to say that I'm sure the person charging £750 has, in their mind, a very good reason why they came to that figure. Perhaps there's a legitimate reason for the extra


Well one poster certainly doesnt think im a good person lol bit harsh but whatever.

I agree.... I never disagreed. The use of the word value is clearly the problem. I mean from a personnal pov for some perspective owners

I simply mean that if for example you have two BSH (it just came up earlier) kittens. One from a great show line, the other has a good, well regarded mother and father, both are healthy but one is £500 and one is £700. Some of us would be much happier with the £500 cat because as both are being advertised as a pet, does the show cat line really represent value? It would to some, but I dont care if one toe has a dot of black in it or something.

I am not suggesting all cats sold as pets should be 'cheap.' Different fits for different owners.

I am sorry if this all came across as me wanting to bully people into making a loss on kittens. It wasnt the point.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Full disclosure: I'm not a cat breeder.
> 
> Also - I can't believe Domino's would sell a pizza for £5 - they are trucking expensive.
> 
> ...


Going back to the main issue in this thread - yes, you can often get a large pizza with one topping for £5 at lunchtime


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Smuge said:


> Going back to the main issue in this thread - yes, you can often get a large pizza with one topping for £5 at lunchtime


Well knock me down with a feather, my Domino's order for a couple of pizzas always comes to more than £30 - rip off! I only order in the evenings though.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

"I am sorry if this all came across as me wanting to bully people into making a loss on kittens. It wasnt the point."

If you take just one thing away from this conversation as an absolute truth - please don't ever worry about the above. Most breeders need no help whatsoever in making a loss on kittens. It's really, really easy 

I wish you all the best with your new kitten.. you must be very excited!


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

gskinner123 said:


> "I am sorry if this all came across as me wanting to bully people into making a loss on kittens. It wasnt the point."
> 
> If you take just one thing away from this conversation as an absolute truth - please don't ever worry about the above. Most breeders need no help whatsoever in making a loss on kittens. It's really, really easy
> 
> I wish you all the best with your new kitten.. you must be very excited!


I will be honest, until I looked into it (the stickyed thread here even if out of date was an eyeopener) I assumed pedigree cat breeders were making a fortune. Which was somewhat my point when I said I understand why some from outside the cat world would try haggle.

Its my dream pet, I can't wait. The cat we had for 15 years bless him... had his problems. He was a great cat, dont think he ever bit or scratched anyone in his life but we got him as a rescue and his previous owners treated him very very badly. Until he finally died of some liver problems, he would hide if anyone outside the immediate family ever came into the house. He would let us pet him and would happily sit in the room with us, but right to the end he would never sit on your lap and if you sat on a sofa beside him he would switch chair. But still... in his own way we knew he liked us and was grateful. When he went to a cattery when we went on holiday he was so incredibly glad to see us when we got home

I hope this new kitten is going to be a ball of love and cuddles lol


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

@Smuge, like you I feel very uncomfortable with the use of the word "_value" _in connection with the purchase of a kitten.  It has overwhelming associations with the purchase of inanimate objects such as household goods, cars etc. Items one can systematically and methodically research to find recommendations on 'best value for money'. I can't imagine anyone buying a kitten in that manner. 

Naturally one will have a budget for what one can afford to pay for a pedigree kitten, but this will no doubt be a figure fixed in one's mind before even setting off to start the research.

Then it will be a matter of researching breeders of the chosen breed, by reading websites, visiting lots of cat shows, and talking to breeders face to face. They in turn will be making their own assessment of you as a potential buyer of one of their kittens.

You will know very early on in any discussion with a breeder what kind of price you could expect to pay for one of their pet quality kittens. If the price mentioned is outside your budget you would politely move on. Eventually you may meet a breeder with whom you feel comfortable, whose prices you can afford, and find that you and he/she have a rapport.

From then on, it will depend on how you feel when you meet the breeder's breeding cats, talk to the breeder in depth about health testing etc, and of course on how she/he feels about you as a potential owner of one of her/his kittens.

In my mind there is nowhere in this process that the concept of 'value for money' has a place. Things that are important are factors such as e.g. health of the kittens, whether they are raised indoors as members of the family, how many cats are in the household, how confident the kittens are, etc. etc. etc.

I wish you well and hope your kitten is "a ball of love and cuddles" but I also hope that if she/he is quite an independent kitty and not a lap sitter, you won't be disappointed and kitty will still be adored.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

chillminx said:


> @Smuge, like you I feel very uncomfortable with the use of the word "_value" _in connection with the purchase of a kitten.  It has overwhelming associations with the purchase of inanimate objects such as household goods, cars etc. Items one can systematically and methodically research to find recommendations on 'best value for money'. I can't imagine anyone buying a kitten in that manner.
> 
> Naturally one will have a budget for what one can afford to pay for a pedigree kitten, but this will no doubt be a figure fixed in one's mind before even setting off to start the research.
> 
> ...


This cat will be loved either way. Frankly something in between the two would be ideal.

It will have the run of the house, infact we are moving to rent a pet friendly house specifically to facilitate the arrival of said cat lol

It shall be a part of the family. Well hopefully, I know that nothing is final until it arrives home with me *shrug*


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I hope you get the kitten back gskinner.

Early neutering does stop the possibility of kittens ending up in byb hands.



Ceiling Kitty said:


> Well knock me down with a feather, my Domino's order for a couple of pizzas always comes to more than £30 - rip off! I only order in the evenings though.


Is that delivery? Over here a basic pizza is $5.95 pickup or $19.95 delivery, perhaps the U.K. is similar.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

spotty cats said:


> I hope you get the kitten back gskinner.
> 
> Early neutering does stop the possibility of kittens ending up in byb hands.
> 
> ...


Agree about the early neutering, had the phone put down on me when I mentioned it a couple of times by people who wanted girls...

Suspect CK orders not only for herself but her partner!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Coming back to the subject of value, I think there is such a thing as bad value. It's an 8-week old kitten not really ready to leave it's mother. It's alleged to be a particular breed but isn't registered and can't be registered. It looks like it costs a lot less than a 13-week old kitten but by the time it's been wormed, vaccinated, and food & litter for 5 weeks has been brought it costs as much as many registered kittens, especially compared to kittens from breeders who neuter before the kitten leaves. 

Also some breeds need quite expensive health checks - I'm thinking of the ones prone to HCM where the adults should be scanned every year. A cheaper kitten from a breeder who doesn't scan can end up with a very short life.

I'd say these (especially the first) are the equivalent of a knock-off Rolex which looks the part at least at a distance but might not even be very good at telling the time.

But I can't define good value for what is in essence a luxury.

My other thought is as it's taken you 2 years to save for your kitten I hope you've given some thought to covering vet emergencies, which can easily cost more than your kitten. 4 years ago one of my cats had a persistent problem which ended up with spending £1,000 at the vet school. It was worth every penny as he's managed to recover and is a handsome & happy lad. Certainly over the life of a cat the initial purchase cost pales beside the ongoing costs of food & litter, and vet costs.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Smuge said:


> I will be honest, until I looked into it (the stickyed thread here even if out of date was an eyeopener) I assumed pedigree cat breeders were making a fortune. Which was somewhat my point when I said I understand why some from outside the cat world would try haggle.
> <snip>


It's the BYBs who make money - the people selling often unsocialised, always unvaccinated, unwormed, unregistered, unregisterable kittens from parents who haven't had the health tests appropriate to their alleged breed at 8 weeks for almost the same price as a 13-week old kitten which is vaccinated, wormed, registered and sometimes neutered.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> Agree about the early neutering, had the phone put down on me when I mentioned it a couple of times by people who wanted girls...
> 
> Suspect CK orders not only for herself but her partner!


I get why cats even pedigree ones should be nurtured and I have zero issue with it and all of mine rescue or pedigree will be neutered. But have also seen people offended by the requirement because they don't get the reasons why. My mum for example was quite shocked when she asked how my first call with the breeder went and I said fine bla bla bla I agreed to get him/her neutered. Mum knew it was going to be a house cat (and thus fairly unlikely to get pregnant) and assumed this meant the breeder was simply being greedy and didn't want competition. It is a harsh but logical conclusion to jump to.

This is why I said this in the OP:

"Some breeders have a list of expectations right from the outside - the cat has to be neutered, the cat must not go outside etc I have even saw some breeders (thankfully not many) who said on their site that home visits will never be allowed.. This is a lot easier to accept when it is explained rather that set out as a bunch of bullet points."

Some people will just read that and think "grrr they want to neuter my cat just so I can never decide to let it have kittens" but if the site listing explained why it was best for the cat to be neutered some will be much happier with the breeders requirements..... just my 2p

Tho some people... like the ones you spoke with on the phone are just dicks

I still utterly reject the breeder I saw who said house visits (and thus seeing the mother) will never be allowed for the protection of her family from strangers. I have sympathy with the general point but I will never buy a cat from someone like that. It sounded very dodgy but aside from the visit point it was a very formal process and the cats appeared to be fully registered etc.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> My other thought is as it's taken you 2 years to save for your kitten I hope you've given some thought to covering vet emergencies, which can easily cost more than your kitten. 4 years ago one of my cats had a persistent problem which ended up with spending £1,000 at the vet school. It was worth every penny as he's managed to recover and is a handsome & happy lad. Certainly over the life of a cat the initial purchase cost pales beside the ongoing costs of food & litter, and vet costs.


I could go out and buy two of these cats today, but it would leave us tight on all sorts of budgets.

Instead we sat down a while ago and said we want this cat, we can't get a pet in our current house so lets do this with a plan. Bit stereotypical, but we got a jar and gradually filled it with pound coins and fivers. This is now enough to buy the cat, all the initial supply's that will be needed and the cat will be covered by pet insurance from the day the breeders coverage ends.

The breeder would also like me to feed it a diet of primarily royal canin, we have agreed to this and have planned to include this in our monthly household budget. The cat I had previously was more than happy to live on Felix pouches + ham and chicken but I know pedigrees are different and whilst canin is significantly more expensive the consesus seems to be that it is high quality food.

We do not have thousands of pounds sitting around for emergencies - cat related or other, but nor are we on the breadline. We are a young couple, getting married fairly soon and we have budgeted as realistically as possible for adding a new member to our family. But for your last point? I admit if we end up with thousands of pounds of vet bills that the insurance wont cover... well we may be unprepared for that

On a more happy note - I got an email back from a cat association today who said that both the chair and many of their members can vouch that the breeder that I have been working with is excellent. All my dealings with her have been first class, but it is nice to get some third party feedback


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Smuge said:


> Mum knew it was going to be a house cat (and thus fairly unlikely to get pregnant)


False assumption. An intact female cat (she, not it) is very likely to get pregnant, and/or disappear all together. Cats in heat get out. Not to mention the health risks, and cruelty of leaving a cat intact all _her_ (not it's) life.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

lorilu said:


> False assumption. An intact female cat (she, not it) is very likely to get pregnant, and/or disappear all together. Cats in heat get out. Not to mention the health risks, and cruelty of leaving a cat intact all _her_ (not it's) life.


Not sure who you are arguing with? I stated several times that any cat I get (she may well not be a she) will be neutered,


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I assume your breeder registers with GCCF? If so, you should be aware that unfortunately Royal Canin is a sponsor of GCCF and has various ways of promoting its products which do not really bear ethical inspection.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

QOTN said:


> I assume your breeder registers with GCCF? If so, you should be aware that unfortunately Royal Canin is a sponsor of GCCF and has various ways of promoting its products which do not really bear ethical inspection.


She is indeed. And I wasn't actually aware of that of that sponsorship, that is interesting. Tho to be honest I know a few pet owners who use canin and I have no objection to using it, at least initially.

One of the things that have most impressed me about the breeding/pedigree community is the lengths some of you go to provide excellent diets for your pets. Initially I will be looking for quite a simple diet until I am more experienced with the breed. I mainly intend to feed it off the shelf dried food supplemented with some meat.

Just out of curiosity, what off the shelf products would you folks recommend? I know that our previous cat loved things like Sheba, Whiskas and Go Cat but I don't imagine that many pedigree owners use those?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Smuge said:


> Mum knew it was going to be a house cat (and thus fairly unlikely to get pregnant)


Apart from entire girls often becoming escape artistes, and that some of them spray when in call, it's far better for their long-term health to be spayed before they call for the first time. This almost completely eliminates the risk of pyometra (uterus infection), and minimises their chances of getting breast cancer.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Smuge said:


> The cat I had previously was more than happy to live on Felix pouches + ham and chicken but I know pedigrees are different


Actually I don't think pedigrees are different in this respect. In my opinion, all cats do best on a grain-free, sugar-free diet, and I personally would not feed Royal Canine.

Zooplus has a big variety of good-quality wet foods, mostly German, and mostly cheaper per kilo than RC. Mine also get some Applaws biscuits as I have two that are keen on biscuits, and the girls get half a chicken wing each most days which keeps their teeth in good condition and also enriches their lives. There is also the Happy Kitty Company.

Quite a few people here have their cats on a rotation of foods from Zooplus.


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## Little-moomin (Sep 28, 2008)

I think each and every kitten, regardless of breed, is priceless! 

I don't really know if this is really a proper response, but I would rather pay a good ethical breeder, who health tests and provides lifetime support twice as much as a breeder who doesn't. To me the cost of the kitten is often a reflection of the hard work, time, and money put into raising them and looking after the breed. Off course there are kittens on gumtree/ petsathome etc with ridiculous prices, just because people want to make a quick buck.

RE the TV thing, the only thing I could think of, was, e.g. you could buy a TV from John Lewis for.. £500, and you could buy the same TV on eBay for £350. But do you get the guaranty? Do you get the service? No? Now I'm not say comparing the kittens to a TV, of course now, each kitten is as priceless at the next, no kitten is 'better' than the other, but the breeder IS. And I think that is what you pay for.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> Actually I don't think pedigrees are different in this respect. In my opinion, all cats do best on a grain-free, sugar-free diet, and I personally would not feed Royal Canine.
> 
> Zooplus has a big variety of good-quality wet foods, mostly German, and mostly cheaper per kilo than RC. Mine also get some Applaws biscuits as I have two that are keen on biscuits, and the girls get half a chicken wing each most days which keeps their teeth in good condition and also enriches their lives. There is also the Happy Kitty Company.
> 
> Quite a few people here have their cats on a rotation of foods from Zooplus.


This is interesting. A lot of people (perhaps more owners than breeders) say for example "I only feed my persian x brand. x brand is much better for its coat than other brands," Do you think that the benefits of certain brands can be exaggerated?



OrientalSlave said:


> Apart from entire girls often becoming escape artistes, and that some of them spray when in call, it's far better for their long-term health to be spayed before they call for the first time. This almost completely eliminates the risk of pyometra (uterus infection), and minimises their chances of getting breast cancer.


I totally agree, I used to think neutering was just about avoiding kittens but researching this process has made it very clear that there is much more to it than that



Little-moomin said:


> I think each and every kitten, regardless of breed, is priceless!
> 
> I don't really know if this is really a proper response, but I would rather pay a good ethical breeder, who health tests and provides lifetime support twice as much as a breeder who doesn't. To me the cost of the kitten is often a reflection of the hard work, time, and money put into raising them and looking after the breed. Off course there are kittens on gumtree/ petsathome etc with ridiculous prices, just because people want to make a quick buck.
> 
> RE the TV thing, the only thing I could think of, was, e.g. you could buy a TV from John Lewis for.. £500, and you could buy the same TV on eBay for £350. But do you get the guaranty? Do you get the service? No? Now I'm not say comparing the kittens to a TV, of course now, each kitten is as priceless at the next, no kitten is 'better' than the other, but the breeder IS. And I think that is what you pay for.


This value thing has certainly become a mess and I am annoyed at myself about it because it has clearly not come across in the way it was meant.

Of course I want a good, ethical breeder and I know that costs must be covered. Cats aren't about money, As I said in the OP - I had the best cat in the world and he was an abused stray that we took in. But when money is tighter for some new owners it can certainly be a factor

All I meant was that some people would be more happy paying a little less for a friendly, healthy kitten from a good line as opposed to a higher amount for a very similar kitten that is being sold as a pet but has show champions in its bloodline. Some will no doubt see the "value" in the show bloodine, some are more than happy with a kitten with a toe that doesn't match. Different fits for different folks. I wasnt suggesting every cat should be one price. Meh the whole argument is a mess at this point


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Smuge said:


> This is interesting. A lot of people (perhaps more owners than breeders) say for example "I only feed my persian x brand. x brand is much better for its coat than other brands," Do you think that the benefits of certain brands can be exaggerated?


Royal Canin run what I consider a scam in lots of slightly different foods for different breeds, sizes & life stages, for both cats & dogs. Probably the best diet for a cat is where they catch their own mice etc., but that's not possible for indoor only house cats so next best is probably a raw prey model diet, followed by a raw diet, followed by the grain-free, sugar-free foods of the type Zooplus sell. At the bottom I'd put the cheap dry foods. People feeding raw diets report smaller less smelly stools, which can only be a good thing!

Read the ingredients. If grains of various kinds are there ponder when you last saw a cat with a scythe in it's paw, or wading in a paddy planting rice.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Royal Canin insist that they have an ad for free biscuits on every cat registration certificate. When it was suggested that a separate enclosure with the registration would be more appropriate they refused to allow it in case the enclosure 'got lost.' The only way that ad can be removed is if the breeder applies to the GCCF to have a certificate without it. Unfortunately most breeders are not aware of this provision. It is certainly not promoted by GCCF.

I am constantly amazed by breeders who think RC food is wonderful just because the marketing tells them so. To be fair many vets also actively encourage their clients to buy the food. It will be better than Go-cat but not much better.


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## AlexPed2393 (Oct 5, 2016)

I know I am going against the grain regards feeding but my little cat has always done best on RC. We tried the high end wet food diets, raw food etc and she had a runny tummy whilst on her 3 week trial with each.

Saying that, all cats are individuals and I do want her to be eating a high end food like the dog is but she just does best on Royal Canin


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

I 


QOTN said:


> Royal Canin insist that they have an ad for free biscuits on every cat registration certificate. When it was suggested that a separate enclosure with the registration would be more appropriate they refused to allow it in case the enclosure 'got lost.' The only way that ad can be removed is if the breeder applies to the GCCF to have a certificate without it. Unfortunately most breeders are not aware of this provision. It is certainly not promoted by GCCF.
> 
> I am constantly amazed by breeders who think RC food is wonderful just because the marketing tells them so. To be fair many vets also actively encourage their clients to buy the food. It will be better than Go-cat but not much better.


The vet part is the main reason why i didnt bat an eyelid when she said she would prefer I feed it RC. Our family vet has always had a high opinion of their dog food


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Smuge said:


> Just out of curiosity, what off the shelf products would you folks recommend? I know that our previous cat loved things like Sheba, Whiskas and Go Cat but I don't imagine that many pedigree owners use those?


My preference is a 100% wet diet consisting of something grain free and high in animal protein.

The supermarkets where I live aren't a great source of such foods and I end up getting Lily's Kitchen or Encore (some of which isn't complete) from there. I end up at Pets at Home for off-the-shelf stuff, though the internet is the best source.

When @lorilu comes back she will tell you not to feed dry food, and I can't honestly say I disagree with her.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Smuge said:


> I
> 
> The vet part is the main reason why i didnt bat an eyelid when she said she would prefer I feed it RC. Our family vet has always had a high opinion of their dog food


I wouldn't feed it to my cat. Ingredients too vague, too much carbohydrate.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

Smuge said:


> I
> 
> The vet part is the main reason why i didnt bat an eyelid when she said she would prefer I feed it RC. Our family vet has always had a high opinion of their dog food


Interesting. I have been told by numerous people includling a well regarded local vet that a primarly dry based diet is ideal, especially for house pets. The dog my parents have at the moment (a small pedigree) has a dry RC diet and he is doing great. We moved away from a focus on wet food because of vet advice

Will read the followup posts with great interest

For clarification - i am by no means suggesting that my plan is for dry food only diet, also planned to provide plenty of meat


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> If grains of various kinds are there ponder when you last saw a cat with a scythe in it's paw, or *wading in a paddy planting rice*.


Probably a common occurrence in Studio Ghibli films!


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Smuge said:


> . Meh the whole argument is a mess at this point


Lol! Sorry for laughing. Just wanted to let you know that some of us do understand the point you are making. Good luck with your new kitten and I hope you have many happy years together.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Smuge said:


> Interesting. I have been told by numerous people includling a well regarded local vet that a primarly dry based diet is ideal, especially for house pets. The dog my parents have at the moment (a small pedigree) has a dry RC diet and he is doing great. We moved away from a focus on wet food because of vet advice
> 
> Will read the followup posts with great interest


Vets, like any professionals, can disagree. I know vets who recommend a predominantly dry diet for cats, but I prefer predominantly wet as I can see benefits for urinary tract health. Low carb is also better suited to cats' metabolisms, in my opinion. My own cat eats no dry.


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## AlexPed2393 (Oct 5, 2016)

Smuge said:


> Interesting. I have been told by numerous people includling a well regarded local vet that a primarly dry based diet is ideal, especially for house pets. The dog my parents have at the moment (a small pedigree) has a dry RC diet and he is doing great. We moved away from a focus on wet food because of vet advice
> 
> Will read the followup posts with great interest
> 
> For clarification - i am by no means suggesting that my plan is for dry food only diet, also planned to provide plenty of meat


I think it is most convenient to feed a dry only diet. We feed mainly dry RC with the occasional wet treat to see if it upsets her tummy (which annoyingly it usually does). Also a lot of vets are sponsored by Royal Canin which then give advice to their patients and the trickle down of information continues.

We feed Royal Canin as it doesn't upset her stomach and her poops don't stink as much and the are healthy. We have tried AATU, Wellness Core, Natures Menu, Raw diet, Encore, Harringtons, Felix, Pro Plan, Burgess, a different Royal Canin variety, Arden Grange and James Wellbeloved and finally we have settled on the one that suits her.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

Sacremist said:


> Lol! Sorry for laughing. Just wanted to let you know that some of us do understand the point you are making. Good luck with your new kitten and I hope you have many happy years together.


 lol thank you - I really do appreciate this post

I have lurked here for a while, I had a few thoughts I thought would make an interesting discussion so I made an account. I knew not everyone would agree and I quite like debate - but was quite sad to immediately be told im the sort of pet owner to avoid and that I was never welcome to buy someones cat. Felt a bit OTT if you ask me...but even if reactions can be a bit harsh I am glad to see people care so deeply about their pets.

Im really actually quiet a nice person.... my fish love me lol


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

QOTN said:


> Royal Canin insist that they have an ad for free biscuits on every cat registration certificate. When it was suggested that a separate enclosure with the registration would be more appropriate they refused to allow it in case the enclosure 'got lost.' The only way that ad can be removed is if the breeder applies to the GCCF to have a certificate without it. Unfortunately most breeders are not aware of this provision. It is certainly not promoted by GCCF.
> 
> I am constantly amazed by breeders who think RC food is wonderful just because the marketing tells them so. To be fair many vets also actively encourage their clients to buy the food. It will be better than Go-cat but not much better.


I think the GCCF are running out of the old cards without the ad on.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I am not a purist about cat food. My cats have a few biscuits instead of treats. (I eat a healthy diet mostly but appreciate the occasional treat so I can hardly refuse to treat them similarly.) However, for the last 20 years I have fed a mainly home cooked meat diet simply because then I know exactly what they are consuming. They have some fish too which some folk would criticise but they like it. Prawns are also an occasional treat. Obviously I have to add a supplement but that is not exactly difficult.

My breeds have a tendency to have early renal failure. Many cats die at age 5 or 6 and this is a relatively recent problem. I would not say the increase in feeding biscuits is the whole reason but I suspect that susceptible cats are more likely to be affected if fed an unnatural diet such as virtually moisture-free carbohydrate-heavy diet. Again, I would never say that the reason my cats tend to live into their mid to late teens is solely because of their diet but I do think a species appropriate diet has to be a good thing. (I think carbohydrate-free food which uses large quantities of offal as filler instead is equally inappropriate and can lead to stomach problems in many cats.) It is interesting that I have climbed on my soap box about diet in this section when I tend to steer clear of these discussions elsewhere!


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> I think the GCCF are running out of the old cards without the ad on.


In that case, they will have to print some more!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Smuge said:


> <snip>
> The dog my parents have at the moment (a small pedigree) has a dry RC diet and he is doing great. We moved away from a focus on wet food because of vet advice
> <snip>


Dogs however are not cats. Most cats have a very low thirst drive and tend not to drink enough if on a dry diet, plus a lot of them are mostly carbohydrates which are not something a cat naturally eats much of.


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## AlexPed2393 (Oct 5, 2016)

OrientalSlave said:


> Dogs however are not cats. Most cats have a very low thirst drive and tend not to drink enough if on a dry diet, plus a lot of them are mostly carbohydrates which are not something a cat naturally eats much of.


The not drinking enough has been a worry for us with Bee at first but she loves her water out of an XXL ceramic dog bowl. or the toilet


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> Dogs however are not cats. Most cats have a very low thirst drive and tend not to drink enough if on a dry diet, plus a lot of them are mostly carbohydrates which are not something a cat naturally eats much of.


Very true I just thought it was mentioning. With our previous dogs and cats we always provided a wet diet with complimentary dried food, I was merely pointing out that when we reversed this (under professional advice) it went very well.

Look we had our previous cat for many many years, we adopted it in primary school and it was still around when I went to university. I fed and looked after him for many years of that and aside from a bed back leg he developed after a fall and a liver problem he developed late in life he was always a healthy cat. However more often than not he was just fed whatever was on sale in Asda that week, virtually always Sheba or Whiskas. So I don't claim to have proper experience in running a healthy diet for a pet.

I very much take the above arguments on board, but at least for the first few months whilst I get the hang of all this I suspect I will go ahead with the RC + chicken and fish diet. As he will have been raised on RC by the breeder it is doubtless a good idea to continue this at least for a while as he or she settles in.

However, despite this stubborness, as the kitten begins to settle in (and we learn to look after it properly) I hope that I can eventually move it onto a somewhat more ideal diet and maybe even a wider variety of homemade food besides boiled chicken etc


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Smuge said:


> Very true I just thought it was mentioning. With our previous dogs and cats we always provided a wet diet with complimentary dried food, I was merely pointing out that when we reversed this (under professional advice) it went very well.


As it can do. Don't get me wrong, plenty of cats out there do just fine on dry food; I've met hundreds.

My logic is that in a number of common health conditions - kidney disease, bladder disease and diabetes - the medical recommendation by experts and indeed most vets will be to feed a wet diet. I prefer to pre-empt where possible and just start off with a wet diet.

I would not be averse to giving my cat a small amount of high-quality, grain-free dry food to supplement his wet, but I have to watch his weight and doesn't really need anything else, hence he's on 100% wet.



Smuge said:


> Look we had our previous cat for many many years, we adopted it in primary school and it was still around when I went to university. I fed and looked after him for many years of that and aside from a bed back leg he developed after a fall and a liver problem he developed late in life he was always a healthy cat. However more often than not he was just fed whatever was on sale in Asda that week, virtually always Sheba or Whiskas. So I don't claim to have proper experience in running a healthy diet for a pet.


Same here with my childhood cats.



Smuge said:


> I very much take the above arguments on board, but at least for the first few months whilst I get the hang of all this I suspect I will go ahead with the RC + chicken and fish diet. As he will have been raised on RC by the breeder it is doubtless a good idea to continue this at least for a while as he or she settles in.
> 
> However, despite this stubborness, as the kitten begins to settle in (and we learn to look after it properly) I hope that I can eventually move it onto a somewhat more ideal diet and maybe even a wider variety of homemade food besides boiled chicken etc


I think a delayed, gradual change while the kitten settles in is a good idea. I'd gently introduce whatever wet commercial foods (if any) you will ultimately be feeding sooner rather than later, as well as the fresh chicken or fish. Some cats can become dry food addicts and very difficult to transition into anything else later. Don't overdo fish - it's best being an occasional thing rather than a staple for cats.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> As it can do. Don't get me wrong, plenty of cats out there do just fine on dry food; I've met hundreds.
> 
> My logic is that in a number of common health conditions - kidney disease, bladder disease and diabetes - the medical recommendation by experts and indeed most vets will be to feed a wet diet. I prefer to pre-empt where possible and just start off with a wet diet.
> 
> ...


It's odd and interesting that the two things most associated with cats; milk and fish are not considered good for them anymore,


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

When I decided to get my first pedigree, I wanted a large fluffy cat. I narrowed it down to Norwegian Forest Cat, Maine Coons and Siberians. In the end I went to a show chatted to owners had a cuddle and settled on a Norwegian.
It took 6 months to research and to shortlist the breeders down that met my requirements. I phoned the lady I got Loki from, had a long chat almost an hour. She asked me lots of questions and apologised for their intrusive nature: are you planning on having children? What would you do with the cat when you had them. She clearly cared about where her kittens went. This was very different to the experience my MIL had where they were clearly in it just for the money.

I have got my other two from her and we have developed a friendship.

Now I have my first girl with breeding rights, from the same breeder, before I have even had a litter the costs are

The costs of the queen (around £800-£1000)
test for PKD, PKDef , GSD4 £48.40
Vet check plus identification for above tests £40
GCCF change of ownership £12
FIFe change of Ownership £5
Registration of Cattery name with FIFe £50
Each show entry £50 approx
Travel and show accommodation costs (per show) £200
Insurance premium as she isn't neutered £6 more per month than equivalent Neuter.
Plus feed etc and I feed them on a high quality wet with a little dried as treats.

We need to get her HCM screened before she goes to visit her boyfriend which is £100-200 then annually. Plus the snap test for FIV/FeLv and the stud fees.

@Smuge if it is a British Shorthair you are looking at, make sure they HCM screen using ultrasound; there is no blood test for BSH. Also they have had PKD swabs done on both parents. We didn't know any of is when MIL got her BSH and he has HCM .


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

lillytheunicorn said:


> When I decided to get my first pedigree, I wanted a large fluffy cat. I narrowed it down to Norwegian Forest Cat, Maine Coons and Siberians. In the end I went to a show chatted to owners had a cuddle and settled on a Norwegian.
> It took 6 months to research and to shortlist the breeders down that met my requirements. I phoned the lady I got Loki from, had a long chat almost an hour. She asked me lots of questions and apologised for their intrusive nature: are you planning on having children? What would you do with the cat when you had them. She clearly cared about where her kittens went. This was very different to the experience my MIL had where they were clearly in it just for the money.
> 
> I have got my other two from her and we have developed a friendship.
> ...


It sounds like you found a wonderful breeder and it very much sounds like you have followed this up with your own breeding. Again, I do need to stress that the intention of the OP was never "breeders are all making a killing, cats are overpriced and all costs should be cut" Since I started researching this over the last few months I have come to have a very deep appreciation for all that is involved - I have known the prices of pedigree cats for many years and until I looked into it I did think profit was a consideration, but it is clearly not. This misunderstanding is what I meant when I said I can understand why some buyers are uneasy about the price, it really is astonishing how much a litter of kittens can cost and some people would never guess.

Before I spoke to any of them I spent a fairly long time looking at breeders across the UK (and indeed US) how they raised kittens, what I thought seemed a reasonable cost for what I was looking for in a kitten (again not that you shouldn't buy more expensive cats within a breed, I just have a budget and am looking for a pet) and the sort of support that they offer once you take the kitten home. I narrowed my choice down to two breeders in the end - one large reason for this was because I did not want to have to take the kitten on a drive that spanned many hours. I read that some breeders will ship kittens - I can't even begin to imagine how stressful that is for the poor kitten.

All the interactions I had with the breeder I leaned towards have been excellent, we had a good initial chat about what I was looking for in a kitten temperament wise, did I intend to allow the kitten to go outside, did I have other animals etc. I admit we did not talk about future children. Since the initial call we have communicated back and forth via email many times. However - I still had concerns - as I said in the OP my parents (any many others) got caught out by what seemed to be a reputable breeder who claimed to be selling fully registered dogs. That poor dog had a long list of problems in the end and thankfully due to action by my parents and others those breeders (they were also involved in drugs) are currently in prison. So I have not been quick to automatically trust.

However on a much happier note - since this thread started I had an email back (several weeks after I contacted them) from the chairman of the local cat society, who was able to vouch for (and offered to get further recommendations from other members of their society's" that in his words this breeder is one of the best I will find in the country, apparently she keeps a lot profile but quietly has established a long history of both breeding and showing her cats. This has done much to assuage my concerns. My main concern with he whole process has been how hard it has been to track down information to independently verify what I am being told - but I suppose that is to be expected in what is a voluntary hobby.

I have no doubts about what breed of cat and I want either, this has been settled for many years, I just wanted to be in a position to give it a great and settled home before I brought one home. We have recently moved into a new cat friendly rented house as part of this. This is not a decision that I rushed into. I do know that the breed has some health concerns and whilst we have some discussed it and she confirmed that her cats are screened etc I have researched a number of specific questions I wish to go over with the breeder before making the absolutely final decision on taking the cat home - she has never asked for a deposit so in theory I could back out at any time, not that I wish to. This is a conversation I would rather have in person than over the phone or email.

Although I absolutely adore the BSH that is not the cat I am looking for this time. I would love to get one someday, but my OH has made it very clear that I am not allowed more than two cats at a time and I really feel that I should adopt one from a shelter and give it a good home.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

Smuge said:


> It sounds like you found a wonderful breeder and it very much sounds like you have followed this up with your own breeding. Again, I do need to stress that the intention of the OP was never "breeders are all making a killing, cats are overpriced and all costs should be cut" Since I started researching this over the last few months I have come to have a very deep appreciation for all that is involved - I have known the prices of pedigree cats for many years and until I looked into it I did think profit was a consideration, but it is clearly not. This misunderstanding is what I meant when I said I can understand why some buyers are uneasy about the price, it really is astonishing how much a litter of kittens can cost and some people would never guess.
> 
> Before I spoke to any of them I spent a fairly long time looking at breeders across the UK (and indeed US) how they raised kittens, what I thought seemed a reasonable cost for what I was looking for in a kitten (again not that you shouldn't buy more expensive cats within a breed, I just have a budget and am looking for a pet) and the sort of support that they offer once you take the kitten home. I narrowed my choice down to two breeders in the end - one large reason for this was because I did not want to have to take the kitten on a drive that spanned many hours. I read that some breeders will ship kittens - I can't even begin to imagine how stressful that is for the poor kitten.
> 
> ...


Apologies, I got the impression that it was a BSH that you were looking for. What breed are you getting? I'm glad you have managed to find the assurances you were looking for. Some of the best breeders I know are rubbish at keeping up their websites but others are fantastic.

It is very uncommon in the UK for breeders to ship cats without meeting the new owner, it would be a massive red flag for me. But in Europe and the US it is much more common and I nearly purchased a British long hair from Belgium. I would have got the kitten at a show not meeting her before, but I have known the breeder for a few years. It looked like hubby may be made redundant just as she was born, hence why I didn't get her.

When MIL got her cat, people could sound great over the phone but the face to face meeting, something didn't sit right. The kittens were kept in an attic room and were scared of visitors. No offers of meeting mum or dad despite him being her stud. So we walked away and the breeder turned really nasty. In contrast to when I met Loki at five weeks old, his full sister came and plonked herself straight on my lap and I got a tour of the stud quarters to meet daddy and great grandad. I also got to meet granny and great granny. I had decided I was having a kitten from her before I meet him as his relatives were so friendly and kept in good conditions.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

This has been a very interesting thread.

I've read right through and some quite interesting things have been raised. There is no doubt that Joe Public hasn't got a clue when it comes to how much a kitten costs to raise and even members of my own family have asked me why I'm not rich. Years ago my Mum and I worked out how much a kitten cost me to raise and we reckoned that if absolutely nothing went wrong and the kitten went to its new home the very day it turned 13 weeks then I would just about cover the cost of raising it. It was only afterwards that I realised I had completely forgotten to include the price of the worming treatments, the increased cost of feeding the Queen and the fact that a kitten eats more and more food as it grows rather than sticking to the same amount from weaning to leaving :Facepalm I haven't checked again recently but the increased health testing I do due to new tests becoming available, better quality food I now provide and the fact I now neuter kittens before they leave me probably sees me significantly in the red even if nothing goes amiss. Need to see the vet for any reason and all hope of clawing back some of the money spent is lost.

Just like any pet buyer, I have also bought cats and it is very difficult to get information about anyone I assume because no one wants to get done for slander. I know a least one of the clubs I belong to will not recommend breeders, even when those breeders are their own members. As breeders we do have a slight advantage in that we are already 'in the cat world' and have friends we can ask but we still get caught out. Only this week have I found out the real reason why people were telling me not to go to a particular breeder two years ago. The reason is shocking but not a soul actually told me why, just told me to stay clear. Frankly not very helpful as I could have put it down to jealousy and gone to the breeder anyway.
Also just like any pet buyer I have had to save up to buy each and every cat I have ever owned. It took me over two years to save for the last cat I bought in.

Food wise, I dropped RC about 5 years ago. Now I feed grain free dry and wet food seeking the high meat content brands. I would prefer they would only eat the wet but I've not had much luck fully transitioning them all over, my eldest neuter is a little bit stubborn. Having said that I do have two cats that by their own choice are 100% wet food eaters. The dry is available but they won't touch it.

In the UK shipping kittens seems unusual, that that is because we are a fairly small Island and can get anywhere on it in well under a days travel. But elsewhere in the world that is impossible, and shipping kittens is commonplace. A kitten flown across Europe or the US will probably feel stressed, but it will be in the carrier for a lot shorter timeframe than if it had to go by road. And of course there are journeys by air that can be done in Europe and the US that take less time than it would to drive from Glasgow to Bristol for example.

I hope you have fun with your new kitten.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

I agree with @Tigermoon as to the interesting thread.

I don't think you can put a "value" on different breeders, as vet prices differ (as already mentioned), and you also have to factor in how often the breeder shows, if they have imported, and what they spend on raising their kittens. I have to say I find much in this thread is very distasteful. The issue, I feel, is not the price of breeders but the price of byb kittens bringing down the "market" perceived by your average Joe.

From what you've said about your search method, I think you (Perhaps unknowingly) made your search very difficult for yourself. The best place to start an initial search is a cat show, as it's much easier to talk to tangible people. Perhaps something to bear in mind if you want to look at a different breeder/breed.

Obviously much of this is now irrelevant as you've found your kitten but hopefully it can advise other potential owners. Breeders don't need to value a cat to the potential owner, for every one cat they will have 4 or 5 enquiries so competition is not particularly high (although this does vary from breed to breed).

I noticed you mentioned showing earlier. If this is something you're interested in, I strongly encourage you to try it. Discuss your options with your breeder as some cats can struggle in the pedigree section; however, you can also show in household pet as that goes on personality as opposed to the breed standard. You don't (and shouldn't ever) pay any more for a show kitten, so it's worth a try. It's a great day out and you get to meet loads of new friends.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

Rufus15 said:


> I agree with @Tigermoon as to the interesting thread.
> 
> I don't think you can put a "value" on different breeders, as vet prices differ (as already mentioned), and you also have to factor in how often the breeder shows, if they have imported, and what they spend on raising their kittens. I have to say I find much in this thread is very distasteful. The issue, I feel, is not the price of breeders but the price of byb kittens bringing down the "market" perceived by your average Joe.
> 
> ...


The problem with the checking breeders out at shows point is that anywhere near me the show seems to be held once per year (from what I can gather a second show may exist but being outside of that established community it isnt obvious), the last one was ages ago and I will probably have the kitten by the next one. I guess I don't need to take a kitten from this litter (again litter may not be the best word - language has caused me many issues in this thread) but on the whole I am happy with the breeder, I just wanted some verification . Which goes back to something @Tigermoon mentioned above - it is not so much the breeders lack of web updates that bother me, its everyone elses lol Like for example she said she registered with GCCF, x cat club and y cat club. Good luck double checking any of this online! One of the cat clubs has a site that hasn't been updated in years and it contains no contact info, I don't have the foggiest how you are supposed to get in touch without knowing an existing member, luckily the other club turned out to be very helpful. The breeder wasn't even listed on the GCCF breeder list which worried me, until I emailed and they confirmed she was known to them and that she just wasn't on the list for some reason. I guess its just an issue caused by much of the work being voluntary and many of those running cat society's perhaps not being overly tech savvy.

Yea I think I will mention the showing bit to my breeder tho I think my interest in shows would be meeting other cat lovers and their cats, I might give it a longer brush than usual but I would only be entering it as a pet, not raising him/her as a show cat. I just love cats and would like to see more of them!

I am sorry if you found much of what I wrote distasteful, the thread was never designed to annoy the breeding community. I just thought it may be an interesting perspective, obviously some disagree with me on this. And I have absolutely no tolerance for BYB's it was by no means meant to suggest that was a legitimate option because it was cheap. My point was only ever that some may think a well raised persian at 450 may be a slightly better fit for them than a cat with a slightly different background that has been llisted at 600. But I accept that some will even disagree with this, which is fine!


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Smuge said:


> The problem with the checking breeders out at shows point is that anywhere near me the show seems to be held once per year (from what I can gather a second show may exist but being outside of that established community it isnt obvious), the last one was ages ago and I will probably have the kitten by the next one. I guess I don't need to take a kitten from this litter (again litter may not be the best word - language has caused me many issues in this thread) but on the whole I am happy with the breeder, I just wanted some verification . Which goes back to something @Tigermoon mentioned above - it is not so much the breeders lack of web updates that bother me, its everyone elses lol Like for example she said she registered with GCCF, x cat club and y cat club. Good luck double checking any of this online! One of the cat clubs has a site that hasn't been updated in years and it contains no contact info, I don't have the foggiest how you are supposed to get in touch without knowing an existing member, luckily the other club turned out to be very helpful. The breeder wasn't even listed on the GCCF breeder list which worried me, until I emailed and they confirmed she was known to them and that she just wasn't on the list for some reason. I guess its just an issue caused by much of the work being voluntary and many of those running cat society's perhaps not being overly tech savvy.
> 
> Yea I think I will mention the showing bit to my breeder tho I think my interest in shows would be meeting other cat lovers and their cats, I might give it a longer brush than usual but I would only be entering it as a pet, not raising him/her as a show cat. I just love cats and would like to see more of them!
> 
> I am sorry if you found much of what I wrote distasteful, the thread was never designed to annoy the breeding community. I just thought it may be an interesting perspective, obviously some disagree with me on this. And I have absolutely no tolerance for BYB's it was by no means meant to suggest that was a legitimate option because it was cheap. My point was only ever that some may think a well raised persian at 450 may be a slightly better fit for them than a cat with a slightly different background that has been llisted at 600. But I accept that some will even disagree with this, which is fine!


I'm not sure where or from whom the one show a year has originated, as this is definitely not the case. If you look at the "Showing" tab of the GCCF site, and further look at "Show Calender" it will give a long list of upcoming shows over these next 12 months. I recommend using that map view (option located in a purple box on the right) but this does require using the desktop site and not the mobile site. Be aware that when using tablets, the map can be difficult to move about.

If you're struggling to find one near you, note one that's relatively close to you and search it on Facebook, liking the page or joining the group. You can then post saying you'd like to visit, is there anyone going your way that can offer you a lift.

I do understand your point, and don't mean to make any aspersions on you or your character so I do hope I haven't come across like this, particularly in relation to bybs. I hadn't intended to suggest you would purchase from a byb, but rather I am of the view that their poor breeding practices and low costs make it appear as if ethical breeders are over charging or raking in the cash. I mean this as a reference to Joe Public opinion and not your personal opinion, so I hope I didn't cause offence.

From what you've said, it seems you are going for a breed with a good demand and supply hence your difficulties with lack of advertising - as I said above, most breeders can pick and choose their owners and so have no need to advertise. I appreciate that this can be a frustration to someone who is new to the pedigree world.

I think price is an issue we will have to agree to disagree on, and, as you say, that's ok. I do think, however, that the thought you've put into your replies is commendable, as you do seem keen to understand a breeder's perspective.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

Rufus15 said:


> I'm not sure where or from whom the one show a year has originated, as this is definitely not the case. If you look at the "Showing" tab of the GCCF site, and further look at "Show Calender" it will give a long list of upcoming shows over these next 12 months. I recommend using that map view (option located in a purple box on the right) but this does require using the desktop site and not the mobile site. Be aware that when using tablets, the map can be difficult to move about.
> 
> If you're struggling to find one near you, note one that's relatively close to you and search it on Facebook, liking the page or joining the group. You can then post saying you'd like to visit, is there anyone going your way that can offer you a lift.
> 
> ...


I don't live on the mainland, I think sadly this vastly limits the local events But I shall take a deeper look.

And to clarify my point on advertising, I do not mean in the sense "I have a Bengal for sale" but in the sense that the breeder will Say "I am registered with the GCCF and I am a member of Kettering cat society and Kent Cat Society & I have close links with both" Then you look into Kettering cat society (I have no idea if this exists) and they will have a list of their breeders but your breeder isnt listed. Should this raise suspicions about the breeder? Or does this just mean the list is out of date? I ran into multiple different roadblocks like this with more than one breeder I found online and not being part of that established community it has taken me a long time to verify this - something I was determined to get to the bottom of due to the previous problem with the "registered" dog my parents bought. Being Joe public they just believed what they were told and assumed if the breeder said it was above board then why would they lie about the paperwork etc? The breeder even let them see the dog in their house with what they claimed was its mother. Wasn't even a cheap dog, I think they sold them for around £600.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Smuge said:


> Wasn't even a cheap dog, I think they sold them for around £600.


Not sure when this was, but £600 is cheap for a pedigree dog these days.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> Not sure when this was, but £600 is cheap for a pedigree dog these days.


For a King Charles? It was a while ago, but I do recall them not considering it a particularly wonderful deal at the time. Could be wrong, but regardless they were certainly told everything was above board

Edit - sorry I wrote "recall them considering it a particularly wonderful deal" this typo really confused the point


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I find your comment about breeders being members of breed or general cat clubs interesting as I get the majority of my kitten enquiries through one of the clubs I belong to rather than directly from my own website (which I do try to keep up to date)
I would always suggest that anyone looking for a kitten should check the relevant breed club sites and go from there. While the clubs do not endorse any of their members you are more likely to find a decent breeder that way than finding an advert and then checking back.


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## Mildred's Mum (Dec 3, 2015)

Some interesting discussion to read through here, thanks.

@Smuge what breed of cat are you getting? Curious now!


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

Mildred's Mum said:


> Some interesting discussion to read through here, thanks.
> 
> @Smuge what breed of cat are you getting? Curious now!


Its not super rare or anything, but its my favourite animal in the world and I have wanted one for 20 years (im only 25  ):










Was over the moon when we looked into the breeds temperament, personality etc and its exactly what we are looking for. Tho obviously sometimes individual cats are weird ... and that is ok


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Smuge said:


> I don't live on the mainland, I think sadly this vastly limits the local events But I shall take a deeper look.
> 
> And to clarify my point on advertising, I do not mean in the sense "I have a Bengal for sale" but in the sense that the breeder will Say "I am registered with the GCCF and I am a member of Kettering cat society and Kent Cat Society & I have close links with both" Then you look into Kettering cat society (I have no idea if this exists) and they will have a list of their breeders but your breeder isnt listed. Should this raise suspicions about the breeder? Or does this just mean the list is out of date? I ran into multiple different roadblocks like this with more than one breeder I found online and not being part of that established community it has taken me a long time to verify this - something I was determined to get to the bottom of due to the previous problem with the "registered" dog my parents bought. Being Joe public they just believed what they were told and assumed if the breeder said it was above board then why would they lie about the paperwork etc? The breeder even let them see the dog in their house with what they claimed was its mother. Wasn't even a cheap dog, I think they sold them for around £600.


I would say that is a very cheap King Charles! I've been looking and am struggling to find any less than £800 that are KC registered. But that's another issue.

I appreciate your viewpoint and understand why you've done so much research, but again many breeders don't need to put themselves online because they have enough interest through word of mouth. That can often means they're better quality breeders, as they are in demand due to excellent kittens. Again, I do appreciate that from the outside that can be difficult to break into.

Conversely, I have recently seen a breeder's website that is very flashy and well updated, links to social media, etc., and they're quite obviously bybs. A good internet presence is not indicative of a good breeder.

Furthermore, many, many breeders of the bigger breeds (Persians, BSH, Maine Coons, Siamese, etc.) are much older folk who are not internet savvy. Equally, the clubs are run by volunteers who often work so don't have the time to update breeder or kitten lists.

You'll also find that the GCCF website is far from updated - I know four registered, well established breeders whose prefixes are not on the list because the lists aren't regularly updated and checked. All four breeders have chased up the GCCF and they still haven't been added to the prefix list.

I don't mean to sound harsh or mean, I just want to highlight that online presence means very little in the breeding communities, and actually going to visit breeders, talking to them, meeting cats and kittens, and going with your gut instinct is far more important than an online list.

I do understand why you were cautious, and I do applaud you for your in depth research, but we are not dog breeders or cocaine masterminds


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

Rufus15 said:


> I would say that is a very cheap King Charles! I've been looking and am struggling to find any less than £800 that are KC registered. But that's another issue.
> 
> I appreciate your viewpoint and understand why you've done so much research, but again many breeders don't need to put themselves online because they have enough interest through word of mouth. That can often means they're better quality breeders, as they are in demand due to excellent kittens. Again, I do appreciate that from the outside that can be difficult to break into.
> 
> ...


It wasn't in the last few years, I don't know what the market value was at the time, prob best to let it go. It was more the point that it was advertised as having full papers etc and how many people actually ring up and check this out? not them. But back to cats

I am sure 99/100 breeders are brilliant, but for my sake and the kittens I just want to be sure I don't end up buying from that one bad egg. And as has already been pointed out in the "why some cats cost more debates" every breeder is not the same, ironically despite all the cost debates in this thread by no means am I (hopefully) getting my cat at the lowest price I saw. To be honest, despite some initial hostility that perhaps I took to heart a bit much (I didn't like the comparison to the wanna be BYB very much :/ but I understand where the poster was coming from ) I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread and have taken a lot away from it so thank you to all those who have joined in.

I always assumed that the best breeders didn't really care about advertising because everyone wants their cats (in fact my breeder had the most low key advert of any that I had seen but when I called her up I got the best feeling after the conversation that I had with any of them) and I suspect I may have somehow stumbled into exactly the sort of person I should have been looking for. And whilst I was frustrated by the issues with verifying info I totally accept both the non tech savvy and volunteer arguments (in fact I l stated both of these factors a few posts back  ) the only organisation I was truly annoyed with was GCCF I thought they at least would have up to date (ish) records.

I have never at all doubted that word gets around within the cat community and that this is the best way to find both breeders and buyers. Frankly I look forward to hopefully becoming part of that community in the next few months. Who knows, maybe oneday gskinner123 might even decide im not such a bad egg after all... id genuinely appreciate that.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Looks like a ragdoll. Unfortunately this is one of the breeds with hcm issues, and although there is a gene test for that breed it's far from 100% and breeders should be scanning as well.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> Looks like a ragdoll. Unfortunately this is one of the breeds with hcm issues, and although there is a gene test for that breed it's far from 100% and breeders should be scanning as well.


I think it's supposed to be a Himalayan.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> I think it's supposed to be a Himalayan.


Maybe, it's hard to see the real shape of it's face but I guess it does have a lot of coat for a Ragdoll. Of course a Himalayan is simply a colour-point Persian.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> Maybe, it's hard to see the real shape of it's face but I guess it does have a lot of coat for a Ragdoll. Of course a Himalayan is simply a colour-point Persian.


Its always been a Himalayan to me but apparently over here many call it a colourpoint Persian. Tho these have health problems of their own. And though I admit I love how the face looks, I am far from convinced that what people bred into the persians face is good for the cat.

I know that ragdolls are popular and I have certainly noticed that they look quite similar, but I do not know an awful lot about the background of that particular breed.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

If you re getting a Himmie and you don't live on the mainland, I'd suggest caution, caution, caution! I am a Himmie breeder myself, and while there are good ones who don't live on the mainland, there are also bad ones. If I can be of any help, please just drop me a PM and I can give you my thoughts. If not, then I wish you all the best of luck.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

carly87 said:


> If you re getting a Himmie and you don't live on the mainland, I'd suggest caution, caution, caution! I am a Himmie breeder myself, and while there are good ones who don't live on the mainland, there are also bad ones. If I can be of any help, please just drop me a PM and I can give you my thoughts. If not, then I wish you all the best of luck.


:Jawdrop Sent you a pm. Hoping "not the mainland" is a large place

On a more happy note - it must be amazing to have Himmie kittens running around! We are heartbroken at how fast the little buggers grow  I can't imagine a cuter animal in the world than this:






But obviously they are kept longer for very very good reason!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Smuge said:


> Its always been a Himalayan to me but apparently over here many call it a colourpoint Persian. Tho these have health problems of their own. And though I admit I love how the face looks, I am far from convinced that what people bred into the persians face is good for the cat.
> 
> I know that ragdolls are popular and I have certainly noticed that they look quite similar, but I do not know an awful lot about the background of that particular breed.


That is exactly is what they are - a colour-point Persian, or Longhair. Some of the US registries divide breeds in strange ways, for example the CFA has Siamese and Colourpoint shorthairs. The later are identical to the former except SIA are only allowed to be seal, blue, chocolate or lilac in the CFA. Torties, tabbies etc. are not Siamese in their view.

The GCCF do limit what colours can be in the pedigree of a colourpoint, and like the BSH there is a horribly long registration policy which called them Colourpoint Longhairs. The rest of us call Longhairs Persians.

http://www.gccfcats.org/Portals/0/Persian Longhair Registration Policy Final 2.pdf

Pay good attention to @carly87, she knows what she is talking about.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> That is exactly is what they are - a colour-point Persian, or Longhair. Some of the US registries divide breeds in strange ways, for example the CFA has Siamese and Colourpoint shorthairs. The later are identical to the former except SIA are only allowed to be seal, blue, chocolate or lilac in the CFA. Torties, tabbies etc. are not Siamese in their view.
> 
> The GCCF do limit what colours can be in the pedigree of a colourpoint, and like the BSH there is a horribly long registration policy which called them Colourpoint Longhairs. The rest of us call Longhairs Persians.
> 
> ...


You can certainly find some "Himalayan" breeders in the UK but I was also aware that they can be called colourpoint persians and I looked into adverts for both. They are the most beautiful cats in the world, I don't mind what folks want to call em 

The discussion above is why joe public can get so confused with this whole process. I never dreamed how much research would go into getting a cat, it made my head hurt at times but I am very glad that I did it.

I have sent Carly (I still have no clue how to tag a user) a PM


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I am sure you have researched the care of Persians but they are very labour intensive cats. Ask @carly87 (to tag just write the name with @ in front and it will happen automatically,) about the time she spends looking after her cats. You will have to bear in mind that when you are a novice it will all take much longer. I think it is much easier if the breeder has accustomed the cats to grooming etc when they are very young kittens.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

QOTN said:


> I am sure you have researched the care of Persians but they are very labour intensive cats. Ask @carly87 (to tag just write the name with @ in front and it will happen automatically,) about the time she spends looking after her cats. You will have to bear in mind that when you are a novice it will all take much longer. I think it is much easier if the breeder has accustomed the cats to grooming etc when they are very young kittens.


Very valid concerns, that I have spent a lot of time fretting over lol I worry more about the washing of its eyes and bathing more than the grooming.

My previous cat probably would have killed us in our sleep if we had ever tried to bath him :Rage I asked the breeder about this and she said that she introduces them to the bath at a very young age and that it will be fine. And the eye issue? Well I assume this is going to take some getting used to but should hopefully be fine.

I don't mind a few mins of grooming everyday to keep on top of the fur, again if the kitten has been raised to do this from birth I am assuming (well hoping) it wont make this a daily fight . @QOTN just a test...

I work from home atm (and should do for a year at least) so I feel like I can commit to getting this all off to a good start, even with a cat that involves some extra work. As this is the first cat that will really be ours to care for (rather than looking after a family cat) we did think about putting off the Himmie and adopting a less demanding rescue until we are a bit more experienced as cat owners- tho (and maybe this is selfish) we knew it was a Himmie we wanted and we can't guarantee we will ever get a second cat. In the end we decided that we should just commit to the breed we really wanted and try our best to get the hang of looking after it asap

This is spinning off in a bit of a tangent, but my bigger concern for the Himmie is what to do with it when for example we go on holiday (once a year - if we can even afford that often) can it just be left with my mum along with instructions to "feed, water and cuddle it for a week" or even for that one off does it need to go to a cattery who will properly groom it etc? But that is something we can deal with when we come to it


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

My experience with Himalyans is indirect, and has been gained as a result of a relative of mine having two of these cats in the past. 

As others have said, these cats are labour intensive, requiring daily grooming and eye bathing. I certainly would not go away and leave such a cat with someone with the instructions to "feed, water and cuddle for a week"! There would be a risk you might come home to a kitty with a badly knotted coat and even possibly an eye infection.

Best plan if you do go away is to employ a live-in cat sitter in your own home, someone experienced who understand the physical needs of caring for a cat who is LH and brachycephalic. (flattened face, short nose).

On the mainland in the UK vet nurses from various vet practices offer this service. The same may apply at vet practices where you are located. It is a private arrangement, and it would be up to you to follow up the vet nurse's references before engaging them as a sitter. The fee is usually in the region of £15 a day. The sitter will be out at work in the day time Mon to Fri, but there in the evenings and at weekends.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

chillminx said:


> My experience with Himalyans is indirect, and has been gained as a result of a relative of mine having two of these cats in the past.
> 
> As others have said, these cats are labour intensive, requiring daily grooming and eye bathing. I certainly would not go away and leave such a cat with someone with the instructions to "feed, water and cuddle for a week"! There would be a risk you might come home to a kitty with a badly knotted coat and even possibly an eye infection.
> 
> ...


I suspect that will not be an option (certainly not leaving the eyes anyway) I am not going on holiday until 2018 so I will judge what is best when I am familiar with the cats needs etc

But yes, I am aware these are not the most low maintenance of cats, but the coat is half the appeal of a persian, it would be very dumb (and cruel) to want a cat like this and not be prepared to taken on the extra work needed to take care of it.

Well, I suppose some seem to do this:









But I can't say that I am a fan of the "lion cut"....


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

I only risk going away for more than a week end of august beginning of September when my are rocking the short haired look. As in full coat especially during spring moult mine will felt bits of their coat in about 3 days if they do not have the perfect coat. And I show my cats so ideally I do not want to have to shave areas of their coat. 

Norwegians are a wild breed, so do not have the luxury of a comb in the forest So are not relatively high maintenance. They would pull out the knots out going through branches etc.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

lillytheunicorn said:


> I only risk going away for more than a week end of august beginning of September when my are rocking the short haired look. As in full coat especially during spring moult mine will felt bits of their coat in about 3 days if they do not have the perfect coat. And I show my cats so ideally I do not want to have to shave areas of their coat.
> 
> Norwegians are a wild breed, so do not have the luxury of a comb in the forest So are not relatively high maintenance. They would pull out the knots out going through branches etc.


You do the lion cut? Does this make the cat feel more comfortable? I am not a fan of the look (if you want a Persian you love the coat) but if the cat is happier this way at certain times of the year then that is different


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## Temporally_Loopy (Jan 16, 2017)

Hi Smudge, as someone who is only two months into being managed and enslaved by their new kitten, I wish you the very best of luck (and patience). I've found this thread very interesting indeed because of my own experiences with different types of breeder.

First, I would like to say that Bertie had a wonderful first mommy, I found her through the Ragdoll rescue website and she is listed as an ethical breeder. The love and attention given to each and every kitten shows in their looks and temperament. They come from championship lines (both mother and father) and the father was a NZ import which adds to the gene pool in this country. Right from the start there was an interest in "me" as a future parent to one of the kittens and what I was most looking for - in my case I want temperament over colour or sex. We discussed how long the kitten would be left on its own for, other members of my family that would be involved with the kitten, other pets, the type of property I live in, garden etc. etc. The website was informative about the breed, what you would need as a new owner, dos and don'ts, and had regular FB updates of pictures and video clips of the kittens / adult cats. I visited when Bertie was 10 weeks old and met two kittens and the sire (who wandered in of his own accord to check us out!). The sire was a stunning example of the breed (and has won many shows) but was laid back and friendly - he let my father pick him up and pet him. Questions were answered quickly by email. Important to me is that the parents were tested for genetic diseases and that I was provided with all necessary paperwork for him.

However, to the other extreme, I had my first ragdoll kitten in 2000. The breeder was recommended by someone at work and I went to visit them - a bog standard family home with some ragdoll cats and kittens. I adored Capo from the outset and wouldn't have been without him BUT, looking back, it was obvious that he was much too small for his age. Nothing was mentioned to me about possible health problems with the breed (something that my current breeder discusses on her website). He was an absolute delight but, again looking back, I can see that he wasn't as energetic as a kitten should be - certainly not like Bertie. He developed HCM which progressed too quickly for treatment (although everyone did their best for him, including the royal veterinary college) and he had to be put down when he was only just 10 months old. I contacted the breeder, as advised by my vet, to let them know that one of their kittens had had HCM but they weren't in the least interested. Funnily enough, his official registration papers only arrived after he'd died ! 

Like you, I don't want to show my kitten (I'm not healthy enough to do that) and so, having championship parents was unnecessary. However, what I have is a kitten with "hopefully" healthy genes, good bloodlines, fantastic temperament, beautiful looks and the knowledge that he had the best possible start in life and was spoiled rotten.

In 2000 Capo cost £350 and I would say that the breeder hardly set a good example. Sixteen years down the line, Bertie was less than twice that amount as a "pet" kitten and well worth every penny. I selected my breeder for the love and attention they give their kittens and the support they offer the prospective parents.


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## Temporally_Loopy (Jan 16, 2017)

I realise that I've just used the word "worth" ... I was just trying to say that, for all the hard work and attention to detail, there was no comparison between the kittens and what was provided by the breeders. In fact my mother was surprised that Bertie didn't cost more - she thought I'd done the typical woman thing and "knocked a bit off" before telling my father.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

Smuge said:


> You do the lion cut? Does this make the cat feel more comfortable? I am not a fan of the look (if you want a Persian you love the coat) but if the cat is happier this way at certain times of the year then that is different


If Loki ever knots badly like he did when he was a youngster, I will lion clip him. Thankfully his coat quality is fantastic at the moment as It would be kinder on him to lion clip him as he is not the easiest to groom. My vet will sedate him to do it. I have assisted clipping cats, and I am not sure it is fair (or possible) to do a whole lion clip with out some serious sedative. Himmys may be better than Norwegians as though he has the sweetest and loveliest personality, he will not do something he doesn't want to do.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

Temporally_Loopy said:


> Hi Smudge, as someone who is only two months into being managed and enslaved by their new kitten, I wish you the very best of luck (and patience). I've found this thread very interesting indeed because of my own experiences with different types of breeder.
> 
> First, I would like to say that Bertie had a wonderful first mommy, I found her through the Ragdoll rescue website and she is listed as an ethical breeder. The love and attention given to each and every kitten shows in their looks and temperament. They come from championship lines (both mother and father) and the father was a NZ import which adds to the gene pool in this country. Right from the start there was an interest in "me" as a future parent to one of the kittens and what I was most looking for - in my case I want temperament over colour or sex. We discussed how long the kitten would be left on its own for, other members of my family that would be involved with the kitten, other pets, the type of property I live in, garden etc. etc. The website was informative about the breed, what you would need as a new owner, dos and don'ts, and had regular FB updates of pictures and video clips of the kittens / adult cats. I visited when Bertie was 10 weeks old and met two kittens and the sire (who wandered in of his own accord to check us out!). The sire was a stunning example of the breed (and has won many shows) but was laid back and friendly - he let my father pick him up and pet him. Questions were answered quickly by email. Important to me is that the parents were tested for genetic diseases and that I was provided with all necessary paperwork for him.
> 
> ...


This is awesome post thank you very much!

I really need to find out more about Ragdolls... from a laymans perspective they look a lot like the himmie but with a normal face and shorter hair. Beautiful cats.

You don't seem impressed with the idea of a normal home with cats in it, can I ask what the second breeders home was like? Can this be a red flag? I know some breeders have outbuildings for studs etc but I thought most breeders just have cats in pretty much a normal home. Maybe I am overthinking that comment

I am really really sorry to hear about Capo  This is exactly the sort of thing I want to avoid and its why independent verification of what I am being told is so important to me. Buying my first cat, if the house is clean, the cats are friendly and look happy I may well be content with that, scared of missing warning signs. What if its just a small kitten?

I do have a preference for a certain colour (the mother is the same colour so I am hopeful ) and I told the breeder that I would prefer a boy (apparently they tend to be more friendly) if at all possible, but I made sure to be clear that any colour or gender is fine if my exact request can't be met. health and personality are key and I would rather have a healthy, happy, friendly flame point than a seal or blue point raised for a quick buck.


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## Temporally_Loopy (Jan 16, 2017)

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression - no, nothing wrong with it being a family home. In fact, Bertie came from a family home but it had additions for the cats of some interconnecting rooms, like conservatories and (again attached to the main house) an outside run that could only be accessed by the adult cats. These extra rooms meant that the queens have somewhere peaceful to give birth and keep young kittens. 

I wasn't raising that as a warning sign at all, quite the opposite, I thought it a good thing at the time but can now see that, in comparison to Bertie's breeder, it was as though they'd just bred two family pets to produce kittens rather than there being any thought given to testing for health etc.

I am sure that most breeders do "work" from home !

I would think that, and you have done a lot of research, so long as the kittens appear clean, friendly, healthy (no sniffles or mucky eyes) and ditto the parents - and the house doesn't smell then there is no reason to doubt that all is as it should be. Please note that Bertie is only my second kitten so I am almost as much in the dark as you!


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## Temporally_Loopy (Jan 16, 2017)

Re. small kittens, I am sure that someone on here could give you an idea of the average size a kitten of your breed (and age at first visit) should be. 

I had no idea when I saw Capo for the first time what he should look like (my fault) but trusted a recommendation that the breeder was okay. It is only looking back, and seeing a photo taken at my visit with him where he literally fitted into my hand, that I realise just how tiny he was compared to other ragdoll kittens - especially those I've seen recently!

I know what it's like if you get an idea of the "colour scheme" for your kitten, especially if it's something you've wanted for so many years. I left it up to my breeder to advise on which of her kittens was a best fit for my situation and, as it happens, I ended up with a boy (which is what I'd have chosen) and a blue colourpoint (again, my preferred colour). Because of the colours of both parents I knew that there were only a certain amount of options anyway!

Can't wait to see more pictures of Himmies, didn't even know what they were until this thread.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

Temporally_Loopy said:


> Re. small kittens, I am sure that someone on here could give you an idea of the average size a kitten of your breed (and age at first visit) should be.
> 
> I had no idea when I saw Capo for the first time what he should look like (my fault) but trusted a recommendation that the breeder was okay. It is only looking back, and seeing a photo taken at my visit with him where he literally fitted into my hand, that I realise just how tiny he was compared to other ragdoll kittens - especially those I've seen recently!
> 
> ...


OH is threatening to set up an Instagram account, you wont be short of pics lol

And yea its an interesting breed, originally a Siamese/Perisan cross. I originally assumed that this was still how you got a himmie... but its an all Persian affair these days. Apparently its the most popular breed in the US.

I have seen plenty of videos and pictures of 10 week old kittens but admit I haven't seen one from this breed in real life. Truth be told I thought it would be fairly obvious if it looked healthy on my visit, I will look into this + and ask the Himmie breeder who posted earlier in this thread


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## Temporally_Loopy (Jan 16, 2017)

Unfortunately, 16 years ago there wasn't instant access to all the online video clips / photos / chat rooms etc. that there are now.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

Temporally_Loopy said:


> Unfortunately, 16 years ago there wasn't instant access to all the online video clips / photos / chat rooms etc. that there are now.


I didn't mean it that way! I mean even after seeing videos I still wouldnt feel certain


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## Temporally_Loopy (Jan 16, 2017)

I know what you mean, you can get paranoid about it all. But these days you can at least see photos / film clips online of other people's kittens so you can get a general idea of what a kitten of a particular age should look like, and there are chat rooms where you can ask questions about weight etc. I had ragdoll books but the illustrations weren't always appropriate to what I should have known and were to do with showing off the different colourways and beautiful pictures of breeders' champion cats etc.

Even now, realising that he was probably the runt of the litter, I'd no doubt have purchased him because it was love at first sight for both of us


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

Temporally_Loopy said:


> I know what you mean, you can get paranoid about it all. But these days you can at least see photos / film clips online of other people's kittens so you can get a general idea of what a kitten of a particular age should look like, and there are chat rooms where you can ask questions about weight etc. I had ragdoll books but the illustrations weren't always appropriate to what I should have known and were to do with showing off the different colourways and beautiful pictures of breeders' champion cats etc.
> 
> Even now, realising that he was probably the runt of the litter, I'd no doubt have purchased him because it was love at first sight for both of us


I totally understand the idea of seeing a great cat with a bad breeder and wanting to save it even if you know you shouldn't. But I also know this just makes everything worse :/


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I'm probably not the best judge of kitten size, as all of mine are monsters when it comes to the weigh in! At first visit your kitten is likely around the 9 week old mark, so I'd expect 900G at the very least, although mine are regularly 1.4 KG and up at this age. That is not common so don't use it as a baseline, but also don't think your breeder is fibbing about the age of the kitten if they present you with a hefty lump of fluff to cuddle.

I'm afraid I would disagree with the advice that you should go with a vet nurse or someone who has experience of dealing with bracy breeds. They do require more care, yes, but it doesn't require a qualification or even heaps of experience. After all, with a little learning, you're going to be given the responsibility of the kitten's care with no formal training, and you'll do just fine. I've left my lot in the care of friends, family members and bog standard sitters, ans each time I've come back, the cats have been happy and healthy. What I do is go through a full demonstration of how I groom them, where the particular problem areas are with that cat, the eye cleaning routine I have etc. I also leave written instructions that are easy to follow, so they can't get muddled. It's a lot to remember and takes time, but the actual difficulty is neglegable, and isn't really much different than say scrubbing a child's face. I suspect it also helps that I feed raw, as I've found it makes an incredible difference to the coat quality, the hair structure and how easy the coat knots up.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

carly87 said:


> If you re getting a Himmie and you don't live on the mainland, I'd suggest caution, caution, caution! I am a Himmie breeder myself, and while there are good ones who don't live on the mainland, there are also bad ones. If I can be of any help, please just drop me a PM and I can give you my thoughts. If not, then I wish you all the best of luck.


Very pleased to say that (after some worry!) this has worked out happily and that I have another firm endorsement of my choice  Thank you Carly

And can I just say (as this was mentioned in the OP) your website is wonderful and very educational @carly87 ! I particularly enjoyed reading about the birth etc thank you for taking the time to add that info


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

@carly87 - for those of us not so lucky as to have cat loving friends or family one can ask to move in and care for our cats in our absence, I believe that using the paid services of a vet nurse as a live-in sitter is an excellent idea!

In my case I know the vet nurses who offer the service, I like them, and they know my cats. Best of all they are very experienced in cat care and would notice immediately if anything was amiss with any of my cats. I would choose one of these sitters every time over any other source of local cat sitting service. Not just because I have a mildly brachycephalic cat who needs daily eye care, but because I also have a long-haired cat who needs daily grooming to keep his coat tangle free. I expect top quality care for my cats if I go away and leave them with a sitter, and if you can get that from a friend, family member or a "bog standard" cat sitter, then you are indeed very fortunate and I am rather envious!


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I've actually never known a veterinary nurse who provides this service, and I've met hundreds! I know @huckybuck has/had one but I don't know where they all are! :Hilarious


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> I've actually never known a veterinary nurse who provides this service, and I've met hundreds! I know @huckybuck has/had one but I don't know where they all are! :Hilarious


The vet nurses from 2 of my local vet practices provide this service. I didn't think it was that unusual tbh as I have a couple of cat-owning friends in other parts of the UK who have the same service offered by their local vet nurses. Perhaps I should conclude there are only 3 towns in the whole of the UK where such a service is available, LOL !! Oops, no that should be 'four' if you include HB's vet nurse sitter service.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

chillminx said:


> The vet nurses from 2 of my local vet practices provide this service. I didn't think it was that unusual tbh as I have a couple of cat-owning friends in other parts of the UK who have the same service offered by their local vet nurses. Perhaps I should conclude there are only 3 towns in the whole of the UK where such a service is available, LOL !! Oops, no that should be 'four' if you include HB's vet nurse sitter service.


Maybe I've just never encountered them! Been in the business 13 years now, let's reconvene after the next 50 or so when I retire!!! :Hilarious


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Maybe I've just never encountered them! Been in the business 13 years now, let's reconvene after the next 50 or so when I retire!!! :Hilarious


Sorry will have to decline as I'll be long dead by then.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

chillminx said:


> Sorry will have to decline as I'll be long dead by then.


Cryogenics is advancing all the time, it was on the news just the other day!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Cryogenics is advancing all the time, it was on the news just the other day!


Ewwww! No thanks, LOL.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

chillminx said:


> Ewwww! No thanks. LOL.


Lol me neither to be fair.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

I had a vet nurse sitter and she was fabulous even took out Skye's stitches as her wound had healed so quickly so I didn't have to take her to the vets when I got back. I'm not sur I would be willing to leave a kitten a week post spay normally. She used to work at the out of hours practice and would come visit them on her way home and on her way to work.
I now have a lovely sitter but isn't a vet nurse and their is a massive difference, I do get knots now and she isn't quite as neurotic over the rabbits getting fly strike.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

I have Birmans, who don't usually require a lot of grooming. Once a week is usually enough, but I did return off holiday once to find one of them sporting a rug on his side that had to be cut off. It was a particularly hot summer so he must have moulted more than usual. It never happened again.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

This forum can really get bogged down in debates on minor details at times


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Sorry...another minor addition within your thread (but you never know may be useful if you ever do need to find a cat sitter) I have had 4 vet nurses cat sit for me over the last 10 years from 2 different practices. I got to know the nurses first through vet visits then happened to ask if they did or were willing to cat sit. One hadn't before but was willing to do visits, another had sat for friends and the other two did it on a regular basis. 

The services were never advertised I had to ask and I suspect it's not mentioned much within the practice as could be viewed as a second job???

I would be lost without Em and the vets would always be on my list if I was looking for another one for any reason.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

huckybuck said:


> Sorry...another minor addition within your thread (but you never know may be useful if you ever do need to find a cat sitter) I have had 4 vet nurses cat sit for me over the last 10 years from 2 different practices. I got to know the nurses first through vet visits then happened to ask if they did or were willing to cat sit. One hadn't before but was willing to do visits, another had sat for friends and the other two did it on a regular basis.
> 
> The services were never advertised I had to ask and I suspect it's not mentioned much within the practice as could be viewed as a second job???
> 
> I would be lost without Em and the vets would always be on my list if I was looking for another one for any reason.


No need to be sorry - the more views the better 

Different fits for different folks. I dont think a right or wrong response exists on this topic


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Smuge said:


> This forum can really get bogged down in debates on minor details at times


It's the addition of minor details that stops a thread from getting boring.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I didn't notice any debates about minor details!


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

CM, I absolutely understand why you would choose to use vet nurses for your cat sitting. My point was that they aren't *necessary* just because you have a brachy breed. Apologies if that didn't come across right.

Thanks for the complements Smuge. The website is very out of data and needs a serious overhaul, but there's still some useful info up there.


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## Babyshoes (Jul 1, 2016)

I can see why vet nurses would be happy to pet sit, the wages they earn are surprisingly low for the skills they have! 

I'm lucky that the ferret rescues near me also do boarding for longer holidays, & my neighbour is also a ferret mom so will happily do pop in visits for a day or two. Now we have a kitten, I'm not sure what arrangements we'll make next time we can afford to go away for longer than a day or two, but I've taken him round to a friend's flat a few times when we have been spending the day with them, and he seems like he would settle well enough, so that's one option, unless they persuade the landlord to let them get a cat of their own...


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

@carly87 - thank you for clarifying.  I understand now.


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