# Help please have I got a ragdoll?



## Felix Ritchie (Apr 4, 2021)

Hi all I've had moggies all my life then several months ago now I lost my last moggy but at 19 years he was a good age. I knew I wanted 2 new kittens but thought that this time I would go for a breed. I done a few of those surveys online and the ragdoll always came up as 1st or 2nd suited to me. I done lots of research online about this breed and thought that it would be an ideal choice for me. I contacted TICA to get the list of breeders in the area like I had read online. I live in Sussex and on the TICA list Sussex was put in the same box as Hampshire and there were only 2 breeders on the list and they were both in Hampshire. So I started checking the various websites that advertise ragdoll kittens for sale and I never saw any adverts in my area until I had been searching every day for about 2 months so I jumped on this advert and made contact with the breeder. I was talking to the mum of the breeders family and I thought that she had put the 2 boys from the litter aside for me. Then about a week later I sent a message asking how the kittens were doing and it was the daughter of the family who had taken over responding to the messages and she told me that there must have been some mix up but there were no kittens put aside for me and she said that there is only 1 female kitten left so even this wasn't my original intention I got her to reserve her for me. She wasn't registered but she had the registration documents for her grandparents. I saw the mother and father but unfortunately a couple of weeks later the father got out and died after getting run over. She wanted the kitten to leave at 8 weeks as did most other adverts I had seen and so the vaccinations would be my responsibility. I was charged £900 for this kitten which was about right when compared to all the other adverts online for which 99% weren't registered. I was just so happy to be getting a ragdoll. I also managed to again get another kitten who again was the last in the litter a few weeks later but this kitten was a boy. Since having them both at home they get along with each other really well but several people have said to me that the female doesn't look like a ragdoll. I've spoken to the breeder again and she has said if I'm not happy I can return her for a full refund. I don't really want to do that as I've had her several weeks now and she gets on so well with the other kitten so I was going to get her DNA tested and I asked the breeder would she refund the cost of the DNA test also if it showed up that she wasn't a pure bred ragdoll but the breeder has blocked my messages now but that's not a problem because I have her address. But I wanted you guys to advise me if you think she is a pure bred ragdoll??


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

This is the importance of not only pedigree paperwork but of proper registration too. Without them you have no proof of the breeding, no matter whether your kitten looks like a ragdoll or not.
You are dealing with a backyard breeder who isn't going to pay for any tests - selling kittens at eight weeks of age is a sure sign of that!
You have been duped into paying a ridiculous amount for a kitten with no vaccinations or even the most basic of health checks. In this case I can only say it's a matter of 'buyer beware'
Not being an expert on ragdolls I can't tell you if she is or not. I don't think her coat looks long enough personally. 
I hope that you are no longer considering breeding your kittens.


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## Maurey (Nov 18, 2019)

Heya! I'm fairly certain you've been scammed, I'm afraid. Sounds like the kitty is from a BYB.



Felix Ritchie said:


> She wasn't registered but she had the registration documents for her grandparents. I saw the mother and father but unfortunately a couple of weeks later the father got out and died after getting run over. She wanted the kitten to leave at 8 weeks as did most other adverts I had seen and so the vaccinations would be my responsibility.


All of this is just full of red flags. Did you see the registration docs for all 4 grandparents? If so, sounds like the 'breeder' never got the documents for the parents because they didn't neuter them, which was part of contract. More likely than not, the parents weren't fit to breed and sold to a pet home, if they're Ragdolls at all. Kittens, especially from slow-growing breeds, should stay with mom until they're 14 weeks old - the fact this 'breeder' wanted to get rid of them early is indicative of the fact they can't afford to vaccinate, health test, and neuter all the kittens they're selling. They also couldn't afford to feed the mother and kittens long enough for them to naturally wean, and properly socialise with mother and siblings. Which also indicates they, more likely than not, didn't health test the parents.

Bottom line - if it's not registered, it's a moggy, and nowhere near worth the going price, especially considering the lack of health testing. Ragdolls as a breed are prone to certain serious conditions including HCM, an insufficiency of the heart, which can drastically lower lifespan. Also, she honestly looks very little like a Ragdoll to me, to begin with. She's much too short-haired for her age, and the shape of her head and ear set aren't correct. I'd return her, in your position, and report the 'breeder'.

An untested kitten from a breed prone to HCM, DCM, RCM, blood clots, and urinary tract issues is a distaster waiting to happen.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Are these the same kittens you posted about on Thursday ?...https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/been-so-stupid-ragdoll-no-papers.451871/page-9 (post 166)
If so then I don't think there is much more we can say.


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## Lunarags (Jan 16, 2021)

Shes no ragdoll im afraid


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## Felix Ritchie (Apr 4, 2021)

The breeder has offered me a full refund including the cost of the DNA test if it comes back that she isn’t a full ragdoll


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## Maurey (Nov 18, 2019)

Felix Ritchie said:


> The breeder has offered me a full refund including the cost of the DNA test if it comes back that she isn't a full ragdoll


DNA tests cannot be used as proof of breed. Also, most DNA tests marketed towards pet owners are notoriously inaccurate to make the results more interesting, as most cats have no breed ancestry. The only test that accurately represents breed ancestry is UC Davis' testing over in America, which is expensive to do, especially if you're based in Europe https://vgl.ucdavis.edu/test/cat-ancestry

You can find more details on the inaccurate scammy practices of Basepaws, wherein technical replicates conducted on the same cat don't match https://cdwscience.blogspot.com/2019/12/review-of-results-data-from-3-cat-dna.html

Besides, even IF the kitten is descended from Ragdolls, doesn't change the fact that she's backyard bred, and not tested to be genetically clear of any of the conditions Ragdolls are prone to. Even if she's 'genetically a Ragdoll', she's still a moggy - no organisation will register a cat without registered parents, regardless of what a genetic test says. Any of her kittens will also be moggies.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Felix Ritchie said:


> The breeder has offered me a full refund including the cost of the DNA test if it comes back that she isn't a full ragdoll


I have already said this. *There is NO DNA test that can establish breed*. What test has the 'breeder' asked for?

This kitten might well test as shorthair, which absolutely rules out Ragdoll, but that's it.


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## teddylion (Oct 16, 2019)

Possibly a ragdoll cross.

In my opinion, if she's already settled and bonded with the other kitten, it would be unfair to her to return her to this backyard breeder.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Felix Ritchie said:


> The breeder has offered me a full refund including the cost of the DNA test if it comes back that she isn't a full ragdoll


Well, call me cynical but is that a flying pig I see


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## Lunarags (Jan 16, 2021)

lymorelynn said:


> Well, call me cynical but is that a flying pig I see


Omg yes i see it too look


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## Felix Ritchie (Apr 4, 2021)

lymorelynn said:


> This is the importance of not only pedigree paperwork but of proper registration too. Without them you have no proof of the breeding, no matter whether your kitten looks like a ragdoll or not.
> You are dealing with a backyard breeder who isn't going to pay for any tests - selling kittens at eight weeks of age is a sure sign of that!
> You have been duped into paying a ridiculous amount for a kitten with no vaccinations or even the most basic of health checks. In this case I can only say it's a matter of 'buyer beware'
> Not being an expert on ragdolls I can't tell you if she is or not. I don't think her coat looks long enough personally.
> I hope that you are no longer considering breeding your kittens.





lymorelynn said:


> This is the importance of not only pedigree paperwork but of proper registration too. Without them you have no proof of the breeding, no matter whether your kitten looks like a ragdoll or not.
> You are dealing with a backyard breeder who isn't going to pay for any tests - selling kittens at eight weeks of age is a sure sign of that!
> You have been duped into paying a ridiculous amount for a kitten with no vaccinations or even the most basic of health checks. In this case I can only say it's a matter of 'buyer beware'
> Not being an expert on ragdolls I can't tell you if she is or not. I don't think her coat looks long enough personally.
> I hope that you are no longer considering breeding your kittens.


The majority of unregistered ragdolls get sold at 8 weeks from what I've seen on the various websites that sell ragdolls. The breeder was going to get them health checked but something came up and she never had time and so she reduced her price by £100. If I could have bought registered ragdolls I would have but I don't drive and I never saw any adverts anywhere near me selling registered ragdolls. That's where as a new member on this website I think the GCCF goes wrong. I think it should hold another list of registered ragdolls if there has been a break in the registration but you can prove by a DNA test that you want to register a ragdoll but where there's been a break in the registration somewhere. You would probably find that what you call backyard breeders that quite a lot of them would like to register them and follow the GCCF rules. Until then demand will always outstrip supply and you will always have backyard breeders who will be selling their kittens at much higher prices than the GCCF say you should even for a registered ragdoll and even though they haven't been anywhere near me even people selling registered GCCF ragdolls are all selling at much higher prices than recommended by the GCCF so registered breeders are just as much to blame.


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## Felix Ritchie (Apr 4, 2021)

lymorelynn said:


> Well, call me cynical but is that a flying pig I see


Well the money was paid by bank transfer so if there was any problem in getting a refund it would be against the sale of goods act and the bank would refund me. Also obviously I know where this person lives.


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## Lunarags (Jan 16, 2021)

Felix Ritchie said:


> people selling registered GCCF ragdolls are all selling at much higher prices than recommended by the GCCF so registered breeders are just as much to blame.


Thanks to kitten prices at the moment since covid are to blame for this, we have to price our kittens this high ti protect ourselves from kitten flippers


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## Blacky90 (Feb 12, 2021)

But everybody is telling you that you cannot prove what breed it is by DNA


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Blacky90 said:


> But everybody is telling you that you cannot prove what breed it is by DNA


Exactly. You can't. I wonder what test the 'breeder' was talking about?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Felix Ritchie said:


> <snip>
> That's where as a new member on this website I think the GCCF goes wrong. I think it should hold another list of registered ragdolls if there has been a break in the registration but you can prove by a DNA test that you want to register a ragdoll but where there's been a break in the registration somewhere.
> <snip>


I say once more,* there is NO DNA test that will establish a cat is of a particular breed.*


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## Felix Ritchie (Apr 4, 2021)

OrientalSlave said:


> I say once more,* there is NO DNA test that will establish a cat is of a particular breed.*


Well I suggest you check Langford Vets as recommended by the GCCF £129!!!!


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## Felix Ritchie (Apr 4, 2021)

OrientalSlave said:


> Exactly. You can't. I wonder what test the 'breeder' was talking about?


The DNA test recommended by the GCCF that Langford Vets do for £129!


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## Felix Ritchie (Apr 4, 2021)

Blacky90 said:


> But everybody is telling you that you cannot prove what breed it is by DNA


I say again Langford Vets as recommended by the GCCF do a DNA test and I've spoken to them and it costs £129 and they CAN tell you what breed you have otherwise what's the point in the DNA test!!


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

Felix Ritchie said:


> The DNA test recommended by the GCCF that Langford Vets do for £129!


Can you link us to the test, as the only test I can find is the ragdoll HCM test


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## Felix Ritchie (Apr 4, 2021)

Blacky90 said:


> But everybody is telling you that you cannot prove what breed it is by DNA


Langford Vets as recommended by the GCCF £129 and I've spoken to them so I'm not posting this again!!


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## Felix Ritchie (Apr 4, 2021)

Lunarags said:


> Omg yes i see it too look


There's also the small claims court but I believe this breeder because she has said I could even take her back now for a full refund without even doing the DNA test. She says she's a Christian and wouldn't sell a kitten as a ragdoll to anyone if it wasn't a ragdoll and when we talk on WhatsApp her profile pic is the praying hands.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

"Langford Vets - Cat Genetic FAQs" https://www.langfordvets.co.uk/diagnostic-laboratories/cat-genetic-faqs/

"Animal DNA Diagnostics" https://www.animaldnadiagnostics.co.uk/page/cat-ancestry

This clearly states that Langford's do not offer the service and the service they recommend states that is not a breed test.
I really hope your questions are answered and the answers are the ones you want.


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## Felix Ritchie (Apr 4, 2021)

OrientalSlave said:


> I have already said this. *There is NO DNA test that can establish breed*. What test has the 'breeder' asked for?
> 
> This kitten might well test as shorthair, which absolutely rules out Ragdoll, but that's it.


If you google that question it clearly says that you CAN get short haired ragdolls.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Felix Ritchie said:


> If you google that question it clearly says that you CAN get short haired ragdolls.


There is absolutely no such thing recognised by the GCCF as a shorthair Ragdoll, or as far as I am aware, any other registry other than the very dodgy ones. By definition they are a longhair cat. Shorthair cats can carry longhair but not vice versa.

From the information about the alleged 'breed' test:

"The Cat Ancestry test traces the lineage of your cat and provides results for common physical traits of coat color, fur length and type.* This is not a breed test."*

https://www.animaldnadiagnostics.co.uk/page/cat-ancestry


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Felix Ritchie said:


> There's also the small claims court but I believe this breeder because she has said I could even take her back now for a full refund without even doing the DNA test. She says she's a Christian and wouldn't sell a kitten as a ragdoll to anyone if it wasn't a ragdoll and when we talk on WhatsApp her profile pic is the praying hands.


I could say I'm a Christian and change my profile pic to praying hands, but it would be a falsehood. I prove my kittens are what they are by registering them.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

A short haired ragdoll I am afraid is not a ragdoll. The long hair gene which in Ragdolls is always the M1 M3 M4 mutation which is recessive, so you need two copies of the mutation. Therefore you will always get long haired ragdolls carrying two copies of the mutation.

edited to correct the mutations can be any except M2 which is specific to Norwegian Forest cats


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## Raleigh (Mar 19, 2021)

Felix Ritchie said:


> She says she's a Christian and wouldn't sell a kitten as a ragdoll to anyone if it wasn't a ragdoll


Unfortunately, since the kitten is not registered and did not come with any paperwork, this is exactly what she has done. I'm very sorry, but this is all part of an act to make you believe the lies she has told you. It's up to you whether you feel it is in the kitten's best interests to return her to such a scammer, but I highly recommend listening to the advice you've been given and reporting her, at the very least.

As mentioned in the other thread, there are registered GCCF ragdoll breeders in Sussex, if you have your heart set on the breed. You may have to pay above the odds or wait a long time, but hopefully, if you really want to obtain a ragdoll kitten ethically, you will consider that a small price to pay.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Anyone else getting 'deja vu'?


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

SusieRainbow said:


> Anyone else getting 'deja vu'?


Just a little bit are you here to close the thread by any chance


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

lillytheunicorn said:


> Just a little bit are you here to close the thread by any chance


Is that a request?


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## Felix Ritchie (Apr 4, 2021)

lymorelynn said:


> "Langford Vets - Cat Genetic FAQs" https://www.langfordvets.co.uk/diagnostic-laboratories/cat-genetic-faqs/
> 
> "Animal DNA Diagnostics" https://www.animaldnadiagnostics.co.uk/page/cat-ancestry
> 
> ...


Thank you I just want to know the breed so that if my cat has kittens I can sell them correctly. I'm going to be taking her to a vets and get their opinion and if I decide to keep the kitten I will obviously get her vaccinated and if the vet says that they think she is a ragdoll then I would also get her tested for the possible diseases that a ragdoll can be prone to. I would also then sell any kittens in the same way that the GCCF advise. I am not worried about the cost to me I love animals.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Felix Ritchie said:


> Thank you I just want to know the breed so that if my cat has kittens I can sell them correctly. I'm going to be taking her to a vets and get their opinion and if I decide to keep the kitten I will obviously get her vaccinated and if the vet says that they think she is a ragdoll then I would also get her tested for the possible diseases that a ragdoll can be prone to. I would also then sell any kittens in the same way that the GCCF advise. I am not worried about the cost to me I love animals.


Most vets know very little about pedigree cat breeds. She's a moggie - a cat of no particular breed - despite being colourpoint. So selling her kittens as any particular breed would be a falsehood.

Any cat with Ragdoll in their background could have the Ragdoll HCM gene. However she could have anything in her background. And you should worry about the cost to you, unless you have a very fat bank balance (£5k to spare, instantly) and don't mind it being hugely depleted should anything go wrong.


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## Felix Ritchie (Apr 4, 2021)

Maurey said:


> DNA tests cannot be used as proof of breed. Also, most DNA tests marketed towards pet owners are notoriously inaccurate to make the results more interesting, as most cats have no breed ancestry. The only test that accurately represents breed ancestry is UC Davis' testing over in America, which is expensive to do, especially if you're based in Europe https://vgl.ucdavis.edu/test/cat-ancestry
> 
> You can find more details on the inaccurate scammy practices of Basepaws, wherein technical replicates conducted on the same cat don't match https://cdwscience.blogspot.com/2019/12/review-of-results-data-from-3-cat-dna.html
> 
> Besides, even IF the kitten is descended from Ragdolls, doesn't change the fact that she's backyard bred, and not tested to be genetically clear of any of the conditions Ragdolls are prone to. Even if she's 'genetically a Ragdoll', she's still a moggy - no organisation will register a cat without registered parents, regardless of what a genetic test says. Any of her kittens will also be moggies.


Well if you are saying she is a moggy then she or her kittens can't have any of the possible diseases that ragdolls are prone to. Why are none of you breeders answering my question because I would have no hesitation in getting her tested for everything prone to ragdolls I don't care about any cost to me I only care for the welfare of any kitten I have. I'm taking her to the vets next week for her 1st vaccination and ask the vets opinion as to what breed they would say she is. She has blue eyes and I got all the registration papers for the grandparents. Either answer what I was asking for so that I can do the best for this kitten or shut down this post because it obviously isn't a pet forum!


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I think this is a wind up, somewhat similar to an earlier closed thread. Or perhaps it's just human nature that, when you don't want to see the truth, you simply keep ignoring factual answers and embellishing your 'story' more and more.


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## Felix Ritchie (Apr 4, 2021)

OrientalSlave said:


> Most vets know very little about pedigree cat breeds. She's a moggie - a cat of no particular breed - despite being colourpoint. So selling her kittens as any particular breed would be a falsehood.
> 
> Any cat with Ragdoll in their background could have the Ragdoll HCM gene. However she could have anything in her background. And you should worry about the cost to you, unless you have a very fat bank balance (£5k to spare, instantly) and don't mind it being hugely depleted should anything go wrong.


I've no problem spending whatever is required obviously more than you would do!


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## Maurey (Nov 18, 2019)

Felix Ritchie said:


> Well if you are saying she is a moggy then she or her kittens can't have any of the possible diseases that ragdolls are prone to


She may if she actually has any of the ancestry the person that sold the kitten to you says she has.



Felix Ritchie said:


> Why are none of you breeders answering my question because I would have no hesitation in getting her tested for everything prone to ragdolls I don't care about any cost to me I only care for the welfare of any kitten I have.


We *have* been answering your questions, they're just not something you seem to want to hear - that's not our fault. If you want to be responsible, have this kitten neutered. If you're serious about breeding, attend cat shows once quarantine restrictions let up, build a good relationship with a breeder (be prepared to travel), and establish yourself as a responsible breeder with a mentor, instead of contributing to the BYB problem.



Felix Ritchie said:


> I'm taking her to the vets next week for her 1st vaccination and ask the vets opinion as to what breed they would say she is. She has blue eyes and I got all the registration papers for the grandparents. Either answer what I was asking for so that I can do the best for this kitten or shut down this post because it obviously isn't a pet forum!


Vets know nothing about breeds. I have had my pedigree, Grand Champion Maine Coon called anything from a Siberian to a NFC by vets. ALL pointed cats have blue eyes. Her grandparents supposedly being Ragdolls provide nothing of benefit to your cat, as your cats parents were not active. If her parents ARE Ragdolls, their inactive status means they were not good enough according to breed standard to be sold as active to a registered breeder.


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## Felix Ritchie (Apr 4, 2021)

gskinner123 said:


> I think this is a wind up, somewhat similar to an earlier closed thread. Or perhaps it's just human nature that, when you don't want want to see the truth, you simply keep ignoring factual answers and embellishing your 'story' more and more.


I wish you greedy breeders can't just answer the question that was asked. I was asking for your experience not all of this crap that you greedy lot are coming out with. I can guarantee that I would be willing to spend more on 1 of my kittens than you would!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Felix Ritchie said:


> I've no problem spending whatever is required obviously more than you would do!





Felix Ritchie said:


> I wish you greedy breeders can't just answer the question that was asked. I was asking for your experience not all of this crap that you greedy lot are coming out with. I can guarantee that I would be willing to spend more on 1 of my kittens than you would!


Those are deeply offensive comments made out of a mix of ignorance and not reading anything that isn't going the way you want it to.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Enough!


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