# why oh why??????



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

why?

http://pets.uk.freeads.net/cats/non-pedigree/1990901/bynx-kittens-bengal-x-sphynx/view


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

freaky babies!!!


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Maybe its part of a legitimate breeding program to introduce the tabby pattern into a line  It mentions F1. They are not over priced and look very well cared for and are going out with ins etc, although it doesn't say anything about vaccinations.


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## Abooksigun (Oct 16, 2008)

Hmmm not sure I agree with you there Saikou. On closer inspection of the photos the babies appear to have crusty eyes, which I guess could be something or nothing The other thing is it mentions 12 weeks insurance not sure who that would be with!

It could well be a legitimate breeding programme but unsure what I think at the moment to be honest


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## wrinkles (Nov 2, 2007)

its not an allowed outcross, so why do it?  plenty of tabby sphynx around !!


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Abooksigun said:


> Hmmm not sure I agree with you there Saikou. On closer inspection of the photos the babies appear to have crusty eyes, which I guess could be something or nothing The other thing is it mentions 12 weeks insurance not sure who that would be with!
> 
> It could well be a legitimate breeding programme but unsure what I think at the moment to be honest


There is a company that offers 12 weeks insurance free, I have seen other breeders use it, but can not remember the name.

My point was really who are we to criticise, the advert looked open and honest no claims of "rare", "fantastic lines" etc everything looked fair and above board and the kittens looked fine, slight crusty eye or not. The mating may well have been done for legitimate reasons only known to the breeder. Its their business at the end of the day, no one elses! Or the breeders of the parents if they are not on the active.

Any breeder can pick over someone elses kittens and find bits they don't like!!!


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

Saikou said:


> There is a company that offers 12 weeks insurance free, I have seen other breeders use it, but can not remember the name.
> 
> My point was really who are we to criticise, the advert looked open and honest no claims of "rare", "fantastic lines" etc everything looked fair and above board and the kittens looked fine, slight crusty eye or not. The mating may well have been done for legitimate reasons only known to the breeder. Its their business at the end of the day, no one elses! Or the breeders of the parents if they are not on the active.
> 
> Any breeder can pick over someone elses kittens and find bits they don't like!!!


I agree the advert is totally different to these people just out to make money, as you say no mention of rare and from super lines with shed loads of champs and all that dribble. Kittens look cute actually.


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## Abooksigun (Oct 16, 2008)

Ahhh thank you for that Saikou, I thought after I had posted that there was probably a company that did!

Yes I guess each to their own as you say & yes it would be a strange & boring world if everyone was the same!!


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

wierd looking things though!


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Saikou said:


> There is a company that offers 12 weeks insurance free, I have seen other breeders use it, but can not remember the name.


I wish you could.... I'd be interested!


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think the fact that it is billed as a one off probably means it is not actually a proper program as for instance you had a notion to have rosetted patterned Sphynx cats then it would take quite a few out cross matings to achieve that look and develop it on. The introduction of one Bengal mating would not achieve it. 
In fact any outcross program, to add a particular trait needs many matings to lock in a trait or develop it, whether recessive or dominant. 

I think though they will be lovely looking cats once they grow up.


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## Catzlover (Jan 2, 2009)

There are a couple of Sphynx breeders here (US), hoping to create a new recognized breed by mixing Sphynx and Bengals.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

But the question still remains - why?? why is yet another new breed needed? What will this 'breed' ADD to the CF world? Why would you supposedly only do this breeding (in this case) on purpose but just the once? Is it to make hairful sphynxes or hairless benglas? What is the reasoning behind it?


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## Catzlover (Jan 2, 2009)

I have no idea. Maybe she's hoping that someone will continue the lines and create a British version. I forget if it said they would be spayed/ neutered?

Maybe she likes the personality of the Sphynx and the size of the Bengal. 

Its not my thing, but some people may want the 'best of both worlds' cross.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Spid said:


> But the question still remains - why?? why is yet another new breed needed? What will this 'breed' ADD to the CF world? Why would you supposedly only do this breeding (in this case) on purpose but just the once? Is it to make hairful sphynxes or hairless benglas? What is the reasoning behind it?


Money.

The dog world is now full of jugs, labradoodles, cockapoos, cavapoos, sprockers, dollies etc. Any one with a pet dog is breeding it to another breed, calling the puppies a fancy name and charging the earth for them because it is "rare" and out of the ordinary.
This ad does the same, they are advertised as "Bynx" kittens.

The problem with many of these "new" breeds is that the people breeding them have no clear path of how to do it and no clear goal as to what they want to achieve. It then descends into chaos, with every tom, dick and harry selling animals for vast sums that are really no better than moggies in cats or mongrels in the case of dogs, to a gullible public. Before I get hung there is nothing wrong with moggies, but would you pay £500+ for a moggie?
I do not want to see cats going down the same route as dogs.

I have no gripe with "new" breeds, if they have a good plan, regulation and a finished goal as in the case of the Toyger.

I would have no gripe with someone seriously trying to produce a rosetted hairless cat in a proper breeding program, but I know it would attract a whole group of those out to make a quick buck by continually breeding hairy F1 Bynxs.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Or of course it could be simply an accident and a breeder not wanting to admit to the fact 

Liz


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

If they are legimately trying to bring in a new coat pattern or maybe even a new breed and doing it properly with all the health tests etc then fair enough. There as others have said doesn't seem to be any of the normal designer language super rare etc. Maybe they're trying to start a new program or something. Or it could have just been an accidental mating which happens to even the most experienced breeder. The babies are pretty freaky looking though.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

> Or of course it could be simply an accident and a breeder not wanting to admit to the fact


I think that is true, in this case, but there are always those who are willing to cash in on this "new" breed label.


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

You're not allowed to mention designer breeding being a bad thing anymore Lauren.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Actually I think the babies look really sweet. If I was a buyer I'm sure I'd be tempted.

Liz


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

> Actually I think the babies look really sweet. If I was a buyer I'm sure I'd be tempted.


So do I, I don't think they look freakish at all.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

There's no mention of them being a new breed or the start of one   and they are certainly not hideously expensive, so no money making involved. I have seen other crosses being advertised for alot more than that. I think they look very cute too.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

The reference to a "new" breed was in reply to Catzlovers post re US breeders breeding Sphynx and Bengal together to produce a "new" breed, presumably the "Bynx" or perhaps the "Sphyngal".


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## Catzlover (Jan 2, 2009)

My post was just a casual "I've seen these mixes in the US, some breeders are trying to get them recognized as a new breed"

They are cute. It says that its a planned breeding so I don't know if its an ooops litter and she's back tracking, or if its planned and she wanted a specific temperement/ colouring mix.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Well thats across the pond for you  Nothing to do with the advert. If the governing registries didn't keep accepting these experiments then they wouldn't progress any further past a cross breed.

Moral high ground or registration fees


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## chibi-neko (Sep 1, 2009)

Hi all,I thought I'd resurrect this thread to let you know that one of the little girls came home with me today

She's a real sweetie,lovely little face and pretty markings and I had a cuddle with her lovely Sphynx mommy too.The bengal daddy lives with the breeders daughter but I have photos of him (plus a copy of his and mom's pedigree)

I'll take a photo (or 2!) tomorrow as she's sound asleep now,it was a long long journey lol!


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## Spearmint (Sep 15, 2009)

wow you travelled a long way!

these kittens are nearish to me and i was tempted so will be interesting to see pics as she grows up


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## chibi-neko (Sep 1, 2009)

Spearmint said:


> wow you travelled a long way!
> 
> these kittens are nearish to me and i was tempted so will be interesting to see pics as she grows up


I know,I ummmed and arrred for ages but it was such an interesting cross and after speaking to the breeder and also TICA I decided it was worth the journey. Genetics are a big interest of mine so I couldn't resist lol!

I'll be happy to provide updates as she grows :smilewinkgrin:


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

So as you have talked to the breeder, what are her exact reasons for making the cross?


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## chibi-neko (Sep 1, 2009)

It was two fold really Lauren,firstly the spotted markings and secondly the wider head.It was very much a personal interest of hers which sadly she is unable to take to the next stage.


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## Janak (Sep 5, 2009)

TBH the kitten looks like a moggy, and thats all it is in the end.


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

Janak said:


> TBH the kitten looks like a moggy, and thats all it is in the end.


its not a moggy at all,both parents are registered pedigrees a moggy has unknown parentage:001_tt2:


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

A moggy is also a term for a cross-breed and as such then I suppose they could be called moggies.
Also Janek said they *look like* moggies, which to be fair, yes they do. They look neither like their Bengal nor their Sphynx pure-bred parent.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

chibi-neko said:


> I know,I ummmed and arrred for ages but it was such an interesting cross and after speaking to the breeder and also TICA I decided it was worth the journey. Genetics are a big interest of mine so I couldn't resist lol!


O are you going to breed on then? What are you planning?

Liz


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## Izzie999 (Nov 27, 2008)

lizward said:


> Or of course it could be simply an accident and a breeder not wanting to admit to the fact
> 
> Liz


Lol good point. I think they are quite cute.I guess they would make a nice pet for someone who liked Bengals and Spynx. What would you call them though,Spengals or Benspynx's lol.

Izzie


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## Izzie999 (Nov 27, 2008)

chibi-neko said:


> Hi all,I thought I'd resurrect this thread to let you know that one of the little girls came home with me today
> 
> She's a real sweetie,lovely little face and pretty markings and I had a cuddle with her lovely Sphynx mommy too.The bengal daddy lives with the breeders daughter but I have photos of him (plus a copy of his and mom's pedigree)
> 
> I'll take a photo (or 2!) tomorrow as she's sound asleep now,it was a long long journey lol!


I would love to see more pics,especially as she grows up. What is her personality like? I think they are so cute. Very reasonably priced and the kittens looked very healthy. At the end of the day if they all end up with good homes who are we to argue.

What did you call her?

Izzie


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## chibi-neko (Sep 1, 2009)

We had a nice quiet night and she is bright and active this morning.At this point in time I'm not 100% sure what I'll do but if she grows and develops well and is passed healthy by a vet and IF I can get a registrered Sphynx stud cat owner to allow me to use their boy (major IF I should imagine) then I will consider going on to the F2 generation,next year.

At the moment I'm just trying to do my homework,speaking to people at TICA and also within the Sphynx hobby to see how the land lies in terms of my next step.The Bengal is not a GCCF recognised outcross.

So that's it in a nutshell,either way little Bynx will be loved and spoilt rotten lol!


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## Izzie999 (Nov 27, 2008)

chibi-neko said:


> We had a nice quiet night and she is bright and active this morning.At this point in time I'm not 100% sure what I'll do but if she grows and develops well and is passed healthy by a vet and IF I can get a registrered Sphynx stud cat owner to allow me to use their boy (major IF I should imagine) then I will consider going on to the F2 generation,next year.
> 
> At the moment I'm just trying to do my homework,speaking to people at TICA and also within the Sphynx hobby to see how the land lies in terms of my next step.The Bengal is not a GCCF recognised outcross.
> 
> So that's it in a nutshell,either way little Bynx will be loved and spoilt rotten lol!


She looks very sweet,as long as she is happy and well loved then thats all that matters isn't it?

Izzie


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

chibi-neko said:


> At the moment I'm just trying to do my homework,speaking to people at TICA and also within the Sphynx hobby to see how the land lies in terms of my next step.The Bengal is not a GCCF recognised outcross.


What are the recognised outcrosses, just out of interest? Do TICA have similar restrictions?

If it's indeed true what someone said recently in another post, that all the Sphynx in the UK are very closely related, I'd have thought _any_ outcross would be a good thing! (Within reason, of course... I really can't imagine what good a Persian outcross would do!!).


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

I would speak to the GCCF, even though a bengal is not a recognised outcross, you should still be able to register her on the experimental register, and if you stick to sphynx from now on for her and all the subsequent generations, you should end up in 6 or 7 generations with a ped sphynx. You might need to see if you can rope a couple of other people in, as it takes a long time.

The GCCF may well have changed their policy, but I have a UK Gr Pr oriental black, whose breeder did just that. He is 7 gens from a moggie x siamese mating. Nice bit of hybrid vigour and good fun I would imagine, almost like starting with a clean slate.


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## chibi-neko (Sep 1, 2009)

I have just taken about 20 photos of which one was half way decent!All the rest were just a blur 

Here she is :-


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## burfy (Mar 8, 2008)

Beautiful ....... What breed is she ?


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

burfy said:


> Beautiful ....... What breed is she ?


Read the Original Post


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## Kalipha (Jul 15, 2009)

burfy said:


> Beautiful ....... What breed is she ?


Please see the original post, it's a whole thread about 'why did someone cross a sphynx and a bengal that's a bit odd'


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## Spearmint (Sep 15, 2009)

aaawww she has really cute face 

how old is she?


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