# Aggressive bull lurcher pup 6 months old!



## Animcfly (Oct 2, 2020)

Hi! I'm having a lot of trouble trying to train my girl. We bought her at 10 weeks old where she was already showing signs of aggression and disobedience. Her first owners didn't do anything to train her and I've been trying so hard with her training. She bites, off the lead she doesn't come back, she gets really aggressive with other dogs while playing and she attacks me when I try to put her lead back on. I've tried playing recall games and using a whistle with reward when she comes back. In the house she is a bit more obedient. She is so unpredictable with her biting. I was just wondering if there are any other lurcher owners out there who can offer me some advice. I do use a crate for punishment if she bites but it's just not working. I've also done the whole ignore for a few minutes and distract with a toy but that's not helping. I've also been putting a muzzle on her for a few minutes at a time but that's not working either. I'm at my wit's end. Please help. Any advice is really appreciated


----------



## Animcfly (Oct 2, 2020)

She's a beautiful girl.


----------



## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Hello & welcome. When you say biting you is she breaking your skin or mouthing ? Same with other dogs can you give more information? 

Using the crate as punishment won’t work because dogs can’t really make the link. I have boxers but my youngest has terrible recall I use a long line and continue to practice. You might benefit from a 1:1 trainer what area are you in someone may be able to recommend. You want to use positive reinforcement.


----------



## Ian246 (Oct 27, 2018)

How old is she now? You say she was ten weeks when you bought her off her first owners “where she was already showing signs of aggression and disobedience”. She was ten weeks old - a baby. How could she be showing ‘signs of disobedience’ at ten weeks?! (How is a ten week old puppy “aggressive”?).

EDIT: I’ve just realised her current age is in the title! :Banghead Either way, I’m with the view that puppies of ten weeks aren’t disobedient; they just don’t understand.


----------



## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Animcfly said:


> Hi! I'm having a lot of trouble trying to train my girl. We bought her at 10 weeks old where she was already showing signs of aggression and disobedience. Her first owners didn't do anything to train her and I've been trying so hard with her training. She bites, off the lead she doesn't come back, she gets really aggressive with other dogs while playing and she attacks me when I try to put her lead back on. I've tried playing recall games and using a whistle with reward when she comes back. In the house she is a bit more obedient. She is so unpredictable with her biting. I was just wondering if there are any other lurcher owners out there who can offer me some advice. I do use a crate for punishment if she bites but it's just not working. I've also done the whole ignore for a few minutes and distract with a toy but that's not helping. I've also been putting a muzzle on her for a few minutes at a time but that's not working either. I'm at my wit's end. Please help. Any advice is really appreciated


Hi. Welcome to the forum.

A 10wk old puppy is not aggressive - it's being a puppy. Likewise with "disobedience". She wasn't disobedient - she didn't know what was expected of her. That's the original owner's fault, not the dog's.

Lurchers are notoriously unreliable off leash. I was thrilled this morning when Milly came straight back after a quick game with a new friend - the chance to play for her is a very rare occurrence and she's only off leash in areas unfamiliar to her (I'm relying on survival instinct to keep her close - not ideal, but it works). Otherwise, she can recall brilliantly most of the time for a full year, and then realise that at full speed, there's absolutely no way I can catch her, and leaves me for dust, to spend 2hrs or so looking for her and calling us both all the names under the sun.

So she stays on leash. Your girl might have to do the same.

Even now, at 10 (years) Milly can still be a bit mouthy. When she does, I stop play dead in its tracks, stand up, fold my arms and ignore her. Her crate has been dismantled since about January, but even when it was kept up, it was never punishment - she had her meals in there, as well as a frozen Kong or a tasty chew.

Please do clarify the biting - the scenarios surrounding it (if possible) how hard, does she break skin, etc?

At 6 months, she'll be entering her teenage stage. This is when any and all training goes flying out the window and can have even the most patient of owners tearing their hair out. You'll need to keep her on a long line and reiterate any training you've done.

There's a reason I call Milly my Sweethearted PITA. She's harder work than both my previous dog Max and my Chihuahua. But that makes the engagement she has with me all the more rewarding.


----------



## Animcfly (Oct 2, 2020)

I know that puppies have the biting stage but this was something completely different to what I ever experienced having had a rottweiler and German shepherd puppies in the past and while growing up. It was constant and she was aiming for your face. It got to the point where she wouldn't let go and she broke the skin pretty much every time. I managed to get her to stop the more aggressive biting with positive reinforcement within about 2 weeks. There was big difference between when we got her as she wasnt doing it very hard and she was listening to a firm no. 
I do feel like all my training has been completely forgotten now. She has broken the skin several times with her adult teeth and has caused a lot of bruises. My right arm looks awful as do my legs. 
The crate was suggested to me by a friend who has greyhounds.
I have been taking her to a local dog meetup in my local park. There's usually around 10 dogs there and she's been absolutely fine off the lead until around a week ago. She's starting to be very aggressive with the other dogs, especially when giving chase. Generally she is the one being chased but now I think she has realised she can catch them and there's been a few near misses were she has grabbed an ear and proceeded to wrestle with it up to the point the other dog is yelping. One dog owner refuses to let her dog on the field now as mine is too aggressive with her's and this dog is terrified of her. 
When I try and put her back on the lead I get attacked. She's grabbing my arm, jumping at my face and also going for my inner thigh area. As she's been off the lead for a while now I feel awful not letting her get her daily run around. I do have a 50foot recall lead but she spends her time attacking it and trying to get it off instead of enjoying the semi freedom. 
As of a few weeks ago I've started recall training her with a whistle. Giving her a treat every time she comes back. She's great doing this in the house but outside she won't listen. 
Her aggression as a puppy was very deliberate. I have a feeling she may have been hurt as she doesn't like her nose or paws to be touched. She's also very meek around her food and waits till people are out of the way before she goes to her bowl, which I find quite sad when I think of her other behaviour 

I'll have to find a nice big clearing for her and her recall lead and see if I can exercise her that way.


----------



## Animcfly (Oct 2, 2020)

Sorry forgot to mention, I live in liverpool. Im not blaming the dog at all. Her previous owners are to blame, completely. I have seen her soft side and it is beautiful and she's so cuddly as well as long as you don't touch her paws or snout. This is why I'm asking for advice because I want her to be happy.


----------



## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Animcfly said:


> I know that puppies have the biting stage but this was something completely different to what I ever experienced having had a rottweiler and German shepherd puppies in the past and while growing up. It was constant and she was aiming for your face. It got to the point where she wouldn't let go and she broke the skin pretty much every time. I managed to get her to stop the more aggressive biting with positive reinforcement within about 2 weeks. There was big difference between when we got her as she wasnt doing it very hard and she was listening to a firm no.


How long did the previous owners have her - do you know? I'm wondering if it is still plays albeit inappropriate play. If she was taken from the litter too soon, she would have missed out on vital socialization skills.



> I do feel like all my training has been completely forgotten now. She has broken the skin several times with her adult teeth and has caused a lot of bruises. My right arm looks awful as do my legs.


Might be worth you looking at getting a behaviourist in.



> The crate was suggested to me by a friend who has greyhounds.


There's nothing fundamentally wrong with a crate. My Chihuahua is currently sound asleep, snug as a bug in a rug in hers, and can often be found chilling out in it during the day.

The problem is how you're using it.

Think about it this way: If you were slammed in prison for some obscure crime - for example - not taking up archery practice, would you go willingly? Or would you kick up a fuss?

It sounds to me as though that's how you're using your dog's crate.

Now imagine the prison held an open day - you get to experience what it's like to be a prisoner, but you're free to leave at any moment. Imagine being led to your cell and finding a bowl of ice cream, or a slice of cake - no catch. The cake or the ice cream is yours to enjoy. You were locked in, but the guard's were right outside, and if you felt the least bit uncomfortable, they'd unlock and/or open the door.

Imagine the prison extended that service to a certain time slot every month or so.

Would you still resist "arrest" on your next visit?





> I have been taking her to a local dog meetup in my local park. There's usually around 10 dogs there and she's been absolutely fine off the lead until around a week ago. She's starting to be very aggressive with the other dogs, especially when giving chase. Generally she is the one being chased but now I think she has realised she can catch them and there's been a few near misses were she has grabbed an ear and proceeded to wrestle with it up to the point the other dog is yelping. One dog owner refuses to let her dog on the field now as mine is too aggressive with her's and this dog is terrified of her.


Chasing is inherently highly arousing and what can start off as play can cause a dog to drift into predator mode. I'll see if I can find a YouTube video when I'm more awake.

I've included some links that will help you better understand canine body language:

The Canine Ladder of Aggression

And this video;





[QUOTE ]
When I try and put her back on the lead I get attacked. She's grabbing my arm, jumping at my face and also going for my inner thigh area. As she's been off the lead for a while now I feel awful not letting her get her daily run around. I do have a 50foot recall lead but she spends her time attacking it and trying to get it off instead of enjoying the semi freedom.
As of a few weeks ago I've started recall training her with a whistle. Giving her a treat every time she comes back. She's great doing this in the house but outside she won't listen.
Her aggression as a puppy was very deliberate. I have a feeling she may have been hurt as she doesn't like her nose or paws to be touched. She's also very meek around her food and waits till people are out of the way before she goes to her bowl, which I find quite sad when I think of her other behaviour

I'll have to find a nice big clearing for her and her recall lead and see if I can exercise her that way.[/QUOTE]

Are you clipping the leash to a harness or collar? I'm just wondering if she's hand shy and feels intimidated by your hand so close to her face.

You need a qualified behaviourist. Perhaps someone from Liverpool can recommend someone. But hopefully that helps in the meantime.


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Letting her play with a crowd of 10 dogs is asking for trouble imo.

Often it’s a free for all and owners can be oblivious to dogs’ body language and it all gets out of hand.

Quite likely, she’s not always actually enjoyed being chased and has turned the tables. Sighthounds are known for rough play anyway so it needs careful management. 

They are sometimes muzzled for off lead play/runs to prevent any accidents and it will protect against prey drift and biting tbh. Muzzle training must be done correctly though to avoid anxiety and it must be the correct basket type muzzle so the mouth is not restricted.

I would discourage joining in with groups and get her to ignore most dogs, other than a few buddies who she can play nicely with occasionally and whose owners are more clued up on dog behaviour. 

Use a harness and long line whilst working on recall and ignoring other dogs.


----------



## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

You have had some good advice above. I completely agree 10 dogs is to many. I very rarely let my boxer of lead to play with others because he always gets over the top. To mouthy and quite similar to you jumps all over me. (Honestly he looks like he's on crack)

Long line I use a 5 or 10m any longer we get in a pickle it took a lot of practice initially Loki attacked it. We practiced walking loose lead with the clicker he got it in the end.

I to felt horrible he couldn't go off a boxer not a sight hound but he chases everything! It made me very sad initially but I'm keeping him safe.

We rent a private dog field to run and practice recall there are loads everywhere see if you can find one. Normally £10 and hour. It means he can play off lead with my other dog. 
https://dogwalkingfields.com/

We are best off walking in quiet areas keeping calm Loki likes sniffy games.

I used a 1:1 trainer really helpful.


----------



## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Boxer123 said:


> You have had some good advice above. I completely agree 10 dogs is to many. I very rarely let my boxer of lead to play with others because he always gets over the top. To mouthy and quite similar to you jumps all over me. (Honestly he looks like he's on crack)
> 
> Long line I use a 5 or 10m any longer we get in a pickle it took a lot of practice initially Loki attacked it. We practiced walking loose lead with the clicker he got it in the end.
> 
> ...


Oooooh! There's one not a million miles away from me. :Woot

Thanks for posting that site @Boxer123


----------



## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

LinznMilly said:


> Oooooh! There's one not a million miles away from me. :Woot
> 
> Thanks for posting that site @Boxer123


We have a few it's nice to relax for an hour ! Look at the size of this one.


----------



## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

I haven't read all the replies properly (skimmed), but here are my thoughts (I have a naughty lurcher).
1. At 10 weeks she wasn't being aggressive or disobedient. She hadn't been taught what is and isn't appropriate and was just doing what worked for her. Lurchers like to jump and was probably getting a reaction from it (even if it was a bad reaction), so this was being reinforced and rewarded.
2. Don't use a crate as a punishment, even if you see it that way to the dog it must be their safe space. Even if you are super angry get a nice chew and pop them in the crate for them and you to calm down.
3.Running round with a massive group of dogs is the BEST game for a lurcher. Because of the working dog in them (yours looks like terrier cross) they can be a lot more bitey and will wrestle (unlike a greyhound). If you want to get a lurcher far too over aroused and teach them bad manners then a free for all with lots of dogs is the way to do it.
4. Recall is an ongoing struggle with lurchers who love to run. Ideally at full pelt away from you. Practice at home, then in boring places with no distractions, then make it more difficult. But take it slow and at her pace. Find a treat that she absolutely LOVES (tuna cake or liver cake tends to be the top treat for most dogs) and use that as the reward for coming when called. Use dog fields that you can hire by the half hour and hour to let her have a run but without the worry of other dogs.
5. She's hitting adolescence so will be going backwards and pushing the boundaries. I suggest a 1-2-1 with a trainer who can help you out, or find a good class nearby that does basic training (reward based methods only, not dominance or alpha crap).

You have a typical naughty lurcher who has been allowed to get away with things, you need to find the best way to teach her what you want from her.


----------



## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Sarah H said:


> I haven't read all the replies properly (skimmed), but here are my thoughts (I have a naughty lurcher).
> 1. At 10 weeks she wasn't being aggressive or disobedient. She hadn't been taught what is and isn't appropriate and was just doing what worked for her. Lurchers like to jump and was probably getting a reaction from it (even if it was a bad reaction), so this was being reinforced and rewarded.
> 2. Don't use a crate as a punishment, even if you see it that way to the dog it must be their safe space. Even if you are super angry get a nice chew and pop them in the crate for them and you to calm down.
> 3.Running round with a massive group of dogs is the BEST game for a lurcher. Because of the working dog in them (yours looks like terrier cross) they can be a lot more bitey and will wrestle (unlike a greyhound). If you want to get a lurcher far too over aroused and teach them bad manners then a free for all with lots of dogs is the way to do it.
> ...


6. They turn into awesome loving dogs at the end of it.


----------



## LotsaDots (Apr 15, 2016)

I have a 5 year old terrier that we have had since a puppy. I started recall training with her at 8 weeks and was consistent with it. However she is still on a long line in many places because her prey drive is ridiculous, she'll be great 90% of the time but then there's that switch in the brain that tells them to leg it! We have lost her for 3 hours+ before.. So don't feel bad about it some dogs are just naturally more likely to come back. I get the guilty feeling still sometimes when I see other dogs running off lead and she can't join them but we do lots of mental stimulation (trick training, games etc) I take her running and she gets a decent off lead run at my mums farm once a week (a secure field would do the job)
I also have a 10 week old JRT puppy who has just entered the land shark stage! He has flown at my face several times now and has drawn blood on a few occasions. That's puppies unfortunately! We just redirect him or walk away. He has a crate where he spends up to 2 hours at a time in the day.He seems to like it but I've always used it as a positive space, he has his meals in there and his favourite chews.
It sounds as if you are doing some of the right things it's just really hard with all the conflicting advice out there. I'm sure a lot of the behaviour is probably down to being a puppy and she will grow out of it


----------



## Bullseye (Jun 10, 2017)

Firm kind and consistent training- if you don't the dog will rule you and lack of training creates conflict and danger

Ours from 8 month to now 4 years old we focused a lot on bite control, this is important so that if you are trimming nails or your pet is injured on a walk they don't take your hand or face off in fear and panic.
From a start we got ours used to fingers in the mouth and cleaning teeth, you can gently roll the lip in back of mouth over teeth- most dogs won't bite themselves.
when looking at teeth if it got a bit OTT a finger nail in roof of mouth gently gives feedback.

Let your dog know what is going to happen, for instance we do nails with dog laying down and say "this bit" before touching the dog- it lets the dog know your going to touch them and be ready, we also have trained the dog to "be gentle" and "no biting" the dog will make it pretty clear if it isn't happy the warning signs in ours are:
Dimples on the muzzle
hair up on back
growling
a lunge- but most importantly no biting.

Ours is a family pet around children, it will love you to the moon and back and isn't used for hunting or fighting.

You may wonder why I bothered to tell you all this, hopefully some of it will be useful if your dog ever needs the vet for an injury etc.

Ours goes for regular treatment and it avoids conflict between the Dog and the vet with blood tests etc- gentle as a Lamb as has feedback as what will be going to happen.

Bull Lurchers are wonderful with correct boundaries and training, dogs become problems and dangerous when clear training & boundaries are not set.

I have pinned and sat on the dog as a adolescent when it wanted to rule the house and got it's teeth out and a muzzle is a useful training aid.

Reward based training is great, you need to be aware your training a dog and not a human, these dogs I believe as wonderful in experienced hands- if your new to them find someone locally who has plenty of experience of the breed.


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Oh my! 

@Animcfly .... please don't follow the advice to stick a finger nail in the roof of your dog's mouth when trying to teach it to be happy being handled, nor pin and sit on your dog to gain authority.

Both are highly likely to exacerbate any issues a dog might have and result in a bite or a shut down dog.

Harsh, spiteful treatment doesn't deal with the issue but can push the behaviours to just below the surface through fear or anxiety.

Incidentally, a muzzle must be introduced gradually as a positive experience too.

Get the advice of a good behaviourist who only uses positive, reward based methods.

Boundaries and clear training can be instilled without aversive or harsh methods ime.


----------



## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Bullseye said:


> Firm kind and consistent training- if you don't the dog will rule you and lack of training creates conflict and danger
> 
> Ours from 8 month to now 4 years old we focused a lot on bite control, this is important so that if you are trimming nails or your pet is injured on a walk they don't take your hand or face off in fear and panic.
> From a start we got ours used to fingers in the mouth and cleaning teeth, you can gently roll the lip in back of mouth over teeth- most dogs won't bite themselves.
> ...


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Bullseye said:


> I have pinned and sat on the dog as a adolescent when it wanted to rule the house and got it's teeth out and a muzzle is a useful training aid.


Anyone reading this, please don't do this, and anyone suggesting that this is a viable way to train or handle any dog, run a mile!


----------



## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Bullseye said:


> Firm kind and consistent training- if you don't the dog will rule you and lack of training creates conflict and danger
> 
> Ours from 8 month to now 4 years old we focused a lot on bite control, this is important so that if you are trimming nails or your pet is injured on a walk they don't take your hand or face off in fear and panic.
> From a start we got ours used to fingers in the mouth and cleaning teeth, you can gently roll the lip in back of mouth over teeth- most dogs won't bite themselves.
> ...


You have a lot to learn yourself.


----------



## Ian246 (Oct 27, 2018)

Blimey, there's some bad advice here from @Bullseye.



Bullseye said:


> when looking at teeth if it got a bit OTT a finger nail in roof of mouth gently gives feedback.


 What? Seriously? Are you saying you dig a finger nail into the roof of the mouth? I'd take your bloody fingers off if you did that to me!



Bullseye said:


> Bull Lurchers are wonderful with correct boundaries and training, dogs become problems and dangerous when clear training & boundaries are not s


 I largely agree with this, but I don't agree with the practices you advocate.



Bullseye said:


> I have pinned and sat on the dog as a adolescent when it wanted to rule the house and got it's teeth out and a muzzle is a useful training aid.


 This in particular! Seriously? Sitting on a dog? Pinning? Why? Do you think you're mimicking what one dog does to another? I'll lay good money that, if that's your aim, you're failing. Your dog doesn't see you as another dog and you are certainly not going to mimic one.



Bullseye said:


> Firm kind and consistent training- if you don't the dog will rule you and lack of training creates conflict and danger


. Yes, firm, kind, consistent training is key. However, that isn't consistent with sticking a fingernail in the roof of a dog's mouth and it certainly isn't with sitting on the dog or 'pinning' it! This last sentence is indicative of a serious problem here: you seem to believe the dog is competing with you, trying to 'rule you'. That sort of pack theory nonsense was discredited decades ago. It originates from a few sources, but particularly from studies of wolf packs which were incorrect as they studied captive wolves which fought with each other before we learned that wolf packs are family groups, whose members do not compete but actively work together. Moreover, dogs are not wolves. They do share 98% of their DNA but we share 98% of our DNA with chimpanzees and we are definitely not the same as chimps in our behaviour. (Chimps also share 98% of their DNA with bonobos, but there are, again, many differences in their behaviour, not least the levels of aggression.) Dogs have evolved over thousands of years to live with people - not to compete with us.
If you treat a dog the way you advocate you'll most likely end up with a frightened, anxious animal. It might have suppressed the behaviour you were wanting to correct, but it's also most likely suppressed any sort of behaviour because it's confused and terrified. I feel quite sorry for your poor dog.


----------



## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

I have a lurcher and a great understanding of the breed and if I started sticking a finger nail in the roof of his mouth the next time I decided to stick my fingers in his mouth I might lose a couple! And I wouldn't blame him! 
Not only that bur it would degrade my relationship with him and when you have a dog with the prey drive mine has I need to keep him as fond of me as possible or I'd never compete with any furry distraction!


----------

