# Sticky  puppy-socialization per pups + dogs, Vs risk of contagion; cost : benefit



## leashedForLife

R K Anderson DVM, MPH, DACVPM, DACVB. 
Puppy Vaccination and Socialization Together?: 
What Are The Risks and Benefits? (an open letter) 
www.sicsa.org/pdfs/rk-anderson-socialization-letter.pdf

Dr. R. K. Anderson's Socialization Letter: 
_____________________________________

Robert K. Anderson DVM
Diplomate ACVB and ACVPM
Professor and Director Emeritus, Animal Behavior Clinic and
Center to Study Human/Animal Relationships and Environments
University of Minnesota
1666 Coffman Street, Suite 128, Falcon Heights, MN 55108
Phone 612-644-7400
FAX 612-644-4262

PUPPY VACCINATIONS AND SOCIALIZATION SHOULD GO TOGETHER

TO: My Colleagues in Veterinary Medicine:

Common questions I receive from puppy owners, dog trainers and veterinarians concern: 
1) what is the most favorable age or period of time when puppies learn best? 
2) what are the health implications of my advice that veterinarians and trainers should offer socialization programs for puppies starting at 8 to 9 weeks of age.

Puppies begin learning at birth, and their brains appear to be particularly responsive to learning and retaining experiences that are encountered during the first 13 to 16 weeks after birth.

This means that breeders, new puppy owners, veterinarians, trainers and behaviorists have a responsibility to assist in providing these learning/socialization experiences with other puppies/dogs, with children/adults and with various environmental situations during this optimal period from birth to 16 weeks.

Many veterinarians are making this early socialization and learning program part of a total wellness plan for breeders and new owners of puppies during the first 16 weeks of a puppy's life -- the first 7-8 weeks with the breeder and the next 8 weeks with the new owners.

This socialization program should enroll puppies from 8 to 12 weeks of age as a key part of any preventive medicine program to improve the bond between pets and their people, and keep dogs as valued members of the family for 12 to 18 years.

To take full advantage of this early special learning period, many veterinarians recommend that new owners take their puppies to puppy socialization classes, beginning at 8 to 9 weeks of age.

At this age they should have (and can be required to have) received a minimum of their first series of vaccines for protection against infectious diseases. This provides the basis for increasing immunity by further repeated exposure to these antigens either through natural exposure in small doses or artificial exposure with vaccines during the next 8 to 12 weeks.

In addition the owner and people offering puppy socialization should take precautions to have the environment and the participating puppies as free of natural exposure as possible by good hygiene and caring by careful instructors and owners.

Experience and epidemiologic data support the relative safety and lack of transmission of disease in these puppy socialization classes over the past 10 years in many parts of the United States.

In fact; the risk of a dog dying because of infection with distemper or parvo disease is far less than the much higher risk of a dog dying (euthanasia) because of a behavior problem.

Many veterinarians are now offering new puppy owners puppy-socialization classes in their hospitals or nearby training facilities, in conjunction with trainers and behaviorists, because they want socialization and training to be very important parts of a wellness plan for every puppy.

We need to recognize that this special sensitive period for learning is the best opportunity we have to influence behavior for dogs and the most important and longest lasting part of a total wellness plan.

Are there risks? Yes. 
But 10 years of good experience and data, with few exceptions, offers veterinarians the opportunity to generally recommend early socialization and training classes, beginning when puppies are 8 to 9 weeks of age.

However, we always follow a veterinarian's professional judgment, in individual cases or situations, where special circumstances warrant further immunization for a special puppy before starting such classes. During any period of delay for puppy classes, owners should begin a program of socialization with children and adults, outside their family, to take advantage of this special period in a puppy's life.

If there are further questions, veterinarians may call me at 651-644-7400 for discussion and clarification.

Robert K. Anderson DVM, 
Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Preventive Medicine 
and Diplomate of American College of Veterinary Behaviorists

____________ END COPY _________________________

The Rule of Sevens

http://www.lrcgb.org/files/rules_of_twelve.pdf

______________________________

American Veterinary Medical Association 
see JAVMA Index, JAVMA online; article titled
"Evaluation of Association between retention in the home 
and attendance at puppy socialization classes"; pubd July 1, 2003

Abstract
Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association
July 1, 2003, Vol. 223, No. 1, Pages 61-66
Doi: 10.2460/javma.2003.223.61

Evaluation of association between retention in the home 
and attendance at puppy socialization classes

Dr. Margaret M. Duxbury , DVM; Julie A. Jackson, DVM; Dr. Scott W. Line, DVM, PhD, DACVB; Dr. Robert K. Anderson , DVM, MPH, DACVPM, DACVB; 
Center to Study Human Animal Relationships and Environments, College of Veterinary Medicine and School of Public Health, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, MN 55455. 
(Duxbury, Anderson); 
Present address is College of Veterinary Medicine, Veterinary Teaching Hospital, University of Minnesota, St Paul, MN 55108. 
(Duxbury); 
Animal Humane Society, 845 Meadow Ln N, Golden Valley, MN 55422. 
(Jackson, Line); 
Present address is 2100 Creek Top Way, Richmond, VA 23236. 
(Jackson); 
Present address is Merial Ltd, 3239 Satellite Blvd, Duluth, GA 30096.

Objective: 
To evaluate associations between retention of dogs in their adoptive homes and attendance at puppy socialization classes and other factors.

Design: Epidemiologic survey.

Animals: 
248 adult dogs that were adopted as puppies from a humane society.

Procedure: 
Owners completed questionnaires regarding demographics, retention of the dogs in the homes, and the dogs' early learning events.

Results: 
Higher retention in the homes was reported for dogs that participated in humane society puppy socialization classes, were female, wore headcollars as puppies, were handled frequently as puppies, were more responsive to commands, slept on or near the owner's bed, or lived in homes without young children.

Conclusions and Clinical Relevance: 
Results suggest several practices that veterinarians may recommend to enhance the likelihood that puppies will remain in their first homes, such as enrolling 7- to 12-week-old puppies in early learning and socialization classes. 
The lower rate of retention of dogs in homes with children emphasizes the importance of helping owners develop realistic expectations, knowledge, and effective tools to manage interactions between their children and dogs. (JAVMA 2003; 223:61-66)

___________________________________________

Interdisciplinary Forum for Applied Animal Behavior:
ABSTRACTS FOR IFAAB 2005 MEETING

R. K. Anderson, DVM, MPH, DACVPM, DACVB

Puppy Vaccination and Socialization Together?: 
What Are The Risks and Benefits?

Some veterinarians tell clients that puppies should not be exposed to other puppies or dogs until after 16 weeks of age when regular vaccination is usually completed. Some want clients to keep puppies isolated in their own house and yard without benefit of any socialization or learning in puppy classes or even with other individual puppies and dogs. They believe the risk of infectious diseases is too great and unacceptable. 
This has made it very difficult for trainers and behaviorists who are concerned with the need for early learning and socialization to convince owners of puppies to enroll in classes or even have puppy interactions with friends. 
For several years, I have been working with colleagues to collect data that would be useful to better document the risks of disease and the benefits of early learning and socialization for puppies. These data may be helpful to promote the concept among veterinarians that vaccination and early learning/socialization go together. 
_______________________________________

many trainers feel that U do pups + their families a disservice if U wait -- that 9-WO to 10-WO is fine, they just need their first-shots. there is research that shows aggression is much higher in dogs who did not attend a puppy class.

pups have PASSIVE * IMMUNITY per the antibodies that cross the placenta, 
and those ingested via the dams breastmilk, _* particularly in the  colostrum - the first flow, 24 to 48-hours post-birth, when large molecules can pass thru the gut-wall of the neonate. AFTER 48-hours, the neonate bowel closes that Swiss-cheese barrier from bowel to body to further absorption, and the opportunity for an initial passive acquired-immunity has evaporated; the pup has aged-out of that window of potential. *_

in Australia, *puppy-preschool* is pups from 8-WO to 16-WO *only*. 
post-16-WO, pups move into normal group-classes, with teen + adult dogs.

cheers, 
--- terry


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## moboyd

Very interesting, when I have bred I kept the pups til they were 12 weeks so that they could go straight into classes, many puppy classes do not allow pups not vaccinated locally, during their time with me, I have family frinedns and work collegeues come to visit with their children, we are talking a LOT of people, they are all dog savvy and play handle the pups on a regular basis, the pups are also living with other dogs and meet/play/annoy the other dogs and learn manners by doing so, the pups get introduced to many floor surfaces, noises, and stresses. I also before they are ready to leave take them along with some of my friends to the local market, (carried) so that they hear lots of different sounds, and scary things. I think you need to do as much as you can to get the pups used to everything possible I try my best, but do realise not everyone feels keeping the pups til 12 weeks it correct but I have found because I do a lot of socialising with them, that they settle in to the new homes with minimum of stress(they already know their new owners because I insist they visist regularly) and new noises dont freak them out.


just realised I should have done a spell check lol
Mo


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## Burrowzig

I got my pup Kite at 7 weeks - she was a farm collie so I knew she'd need a lot of socialising. I carried her everywhere with me from day 1, took her to town, to work, to an agility competition and training I was doing with my other dog. She met loads of (vaccinated) dogs, loads of people, all the different sights and sounds. So far she's seemed quite bombproof, is friendly and readily approaches any person or dog she is comes across.

Until her vaccinations had taken, I kept her off the ground. I don't know how important that was. I walked on the ground where other dogs had been, and so did my older dog. When we got home we all walked on the same floor in the house. I've seen it written (Sophia Yin) that in the US they say it's OK for pups to walk on pavement before their jabs have taken, it's obviously safer than grass in the park, but how do you know an infected dog turd hadn't just been hosed off?

It seemed a bit silly to me to take the safety so far, after all dogs as a species have survived thousands of years before vaccinations were invented, and even if a pup does catch parvo or something it can usually be cured these days - to say nothing of them having a built-in immune system - if they're healthy to start with they ought to be able to meet disease and NOT get infected. I just couldn't take the risk, and there is also all the social pressure.


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## leashedForLife

re burrowzig -



> It seemed a bit silly to me to take the safety so far, after all dogs as a species have survived thousands of years before vaccinations were invented, and even if a pup does catch parvo or something it can usually be cured these days - to say nothing of them having a built-in immune system...


hey, ziggy! :--)

it sounds as tho U and the puppy did very well - being careful, but not carried away with worrying. Good on ya! :thumbup1:

i do not know how many folks here recall when Parvo first broke out? 
i was too young to know anything about the details, but as a NOVEL disease, it killed many dogs - adults, 
teens, pups - everybody.  NO * One was immune, yet - as the microbe was a new organism, *just like H1N1 flu - 
or the 1915 Spanish flu - or HIV when it first showed in numbers, in the 1970s. 
NOVELTY means low to no resistance.* 

Parvo now is a threat primarily to neonate pups - not pups of 4-mos and up, and not adults. 
the general popn already has some acquired immunity - neonates are at great risk PRIMARILY because of the tissue 
that Parvo targets preferentially: *the intestinal lining - rapidly dividing, critical tissue for any puppy - :yikes: 
a pups primary job is to GROW, which requires NUTRIENTS - a sloughing bowel lining cannot digest properly, 
nor absorb nutrients; the accompanying DIARRHEA dessicates young pups, with their small body-volume. 
the younger the pup, the greater the risk.  75% of pups of 5-wk and under, will DIE - 
no matter how competent the nursing, no matter how much $$ U throw at treatment, despite sub-Q fluids 
and 24-hour nursing.* by 9-WO, the stats have flipped: 75% of pups with decent nursing and early diagnosis recover, 
without any long-term damage.

since ethical breeders never separate pups before 49-days minimum (and i would PAY * EXTRA to keep 
my pup with their dam for 7 more days!), they are past the truly-terrifying age for this virus. 
reasonable precautions should keep the pup pretty safe - and if i was paranoid, LOL, 
i would put the pup in BOOTIES every time we went outside, :laugh:... 
but we would still be out there, meeting, greeting, looking, listening, sniffing... 
and learning just as much as Pup can, and just as happily as possible. 



> ...if they're healthy to start with they ought to be able to meet disease and NOT get infected.
> I just couldn't take the risk, and there is also all the social pressure.


the dog-flu is another new virus - but altho extremely contagious, over 80% of dogs who actually get it, never go to the vet; 
they have such minor symptoms. 
H1N1 is approx 80% contagious - but very few ppl will _*DIE of it - the problem is that H1N1 kills an entirely 
DIFFERENT popn than the seasonal flu: not elderly or infants, but healthy older children and adults.*_

social-pressure is another factor entirely -  this can be very difficult, indeed - 
especially family members who are SURE we are going to kill the puppy.  
the best U can do, is mitigate the risk; make opps like a fellow puppy-owner for a play-date in their yard, 
_*offer Ur own yard for a meet and greet once a week...*_ 
join a dog-training club and take the pup for a group-play session with other social dogs + pups... 
find venues like a puppy-garten at the local vets in a non-exposure area... 
play in tennis-courts, go to the seaside below the tide-line, and etc.

happy training, + congratulations to all the new-pup parents! :smilewinkgrin:
U lucky dogs, U...  green with envy,

--- terry


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## moboyd

I actually do remember when I first saw parvo, it was I would say somewhere late 70's very early 80's nearly everyone on our street had dogs, it was a time that many dogs just wandered in and out of our homes, there didnt seem to be as much risk of getting run over or anything in those days way back in the when lol, anyway, I remember many of the dogs in our street coming down with parvo, and a lot of my friends lost their dogs to it, strangely enough both our dogs never caught it? dont know why, but it was a very upsetting time because no body knew what to do and how to deal with it, I remember our neighbours dog lay in the garden, having bled out not the nicest thing to see, I was about 22 at the time, and it seemed as if there was a certain smell hanging in the air one I never wanted to smell again.

Mo


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## leashedForLife

Dog Behaviour - Articles - Socialising a Litter of Puppies


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## leashedForLife

Properly Socialized by Pat Schaap. Socializing by the rule of 7's 
this is what the BREEDER should do for pups before they depart their litter + dam - 
its a foundation for everything to be built on, as Pup grows.


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## MerlinsMum

Burrowzig said:


> It seemed a bit silly to me to take the safety so far, after all dogs as a species have survived thousands of years before vaccinations were invented, and even if a pup does catch parvo or something it can usually be cured these days - to say nothing of them having a built-in immune system - if they're healthy to start with they ought to be able to meet disease and NOT get infected. I just couldn't take the risk, and there is also all the social pressure.


I took a very careful and calculated risk with Merlin as a youngster. Before I got him at 9 weeks, I knew his breed needed extensive and very thorough socialisation right from the word Go.

Just before I got him I was at the stage of calling up local training clubs and tringto find the right class for him. I got into conversation with a lady who had run classes here for the last 20 years or so, and she impressed on me the need for thorough socialisation - more to the environment than other dogs.

"More dogs" she warned me, "get put to sleep from behavioural issues due to lack of socialisation, than ever die from parvo or distemper."

It really made me think. So I asked her what she thought the risks would be in this area, as she of course would know.... especially as the other trainer at her class is a vet nurse.

Parvo is rare here, she said; distemper even more so. And either of those you could bring in on your shoes anyway. Now that really did make me think, because when I was breeding cats I once brought home a Chlamydiosis infection on my clothes from a cat show, and also once walked salmonella in off the street.

When Merlin did eventually go for his vaccs I had my wrist slapped by the vet for doing so - but he'd been out & about on the pavement for a couple of weeks by then, getting used to everything. We avoided parks and other dogs, but we did get out & about in our local area on the ground, so he had quite a head start compared to many other dogs.

It has to be personal choice and an informed, educated choice at that.... not something I would recommend for everyone but I did my homework.


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## CarolineH

I had Merlin just before he was 8 weeks old and took him out in my arms and in the car as much as possible prior to his innoculations. He saw tractors (we are semi-rural) cars, lorries, other people etc and took it all in his stride. He also got used to the lead in the house and I would take him out onto the street just to stand at the side of the road and watch the world go by - not where any dogs toileted and not on grass of course. As soon as he was innoculated, he met cows, sheep and
horses (ignores them all now) plus other dogs and people. Anything he seemed to be worried about was worked on straight away as was recall on a long line and he also learned to walk with a wheelchair, tri-walker and mobility scooter as I occasionally use either one of those. So by the age of 4 months he was au fait with pretty much anything. I even took him down to the local railway station to watch trains!  He also went to classes until my illness got worse and I could no longer drag myself there in evenings. I also did similar with Chucky when he was a pup 9 years ago - the other dogs I have I had as older dogs though I still worked on them as much as possible.

To educate a pup takes time and commitment and it is important for pups to have someone around much of the time, especially in the daytime to teach them right from wrong and to take them out for socialisation lessons. It should be an ongoing thing for at least the first 2 years of a dogs life in my opinion but how many bother to continue pups education that long or indeed put themselves out that much?:confused1:


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## leashedForLife

Puppy Training | Ahimsa Dog Training, Seattle | Dog and Puppy Tips from Seattle | 
lots of good stuff here! :thumbup:

also scroll down - 
*margaret hughes Rule of 12* for what OWNERS need to work on, between weeks 8 and 12, 
with happy exposures for their pups - exposure to objects is *habituation,* 
and meeting living-creatures is *socialization* if we are being specific.

happy training!  
--- terry


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## jomac

CarolineH said:


> I had Merlin just before he was 8 weeks old and took him out in my arms and in the car as much as possible prior to his innoculations. He saw tractors (we are semi-rural) cars, lorries, other people etc and took it all in his stride. He also got used to the lead in the house and I would take him out onto the street just to stand at the side of the road and watch the world go by - not where any dogs toileted and not on grass of course. As soon as he was innoculated, he met cows, sheep and
> horses (ignores them all now) plus other dogs and people. Anything he seemed to be worried about was worked on straight away as was recall on a long line and he also learned to walk with a wheelchair, tri-walker and mobility scooter as I occasionally use either one of those. So by the age of 4 months he was au fait with pretty much anything. I even took him down to the local railway station to watch trains!  He also went to classes until my illness got worse and I could no longer drag myself there in evenings. I also did similar with Chucky when he was a pup 9 years ago - the other dogs I have I had as older dogs though I still worked on them as much as possible.
> 
> To educate a pup takes time and commitment and it is important for pups to have someone around much of the time, especially in the daytime to teach them right from wrong and to take them out for socialisation lessons. It should be an ongoing thing for at least the first 2 years of a dogs life in my opinion but how many bother to continue pups education that long or indeed put themselves out that much?:confused1:


Hi 

Getting Staffy puppy Oct @ 8 weeks, thanks for great ideas here, already have a queue of people ready to meet her @ home and puppy classes booked. watched some vids from Ian Dunbar & Sirius berkley puppy training any thoughts on these yourself ? Thanks :thumbup: Joanne


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## leashedForLife

jomac said:


> Getting Staffy puppy Oct @ 8 weeks...
> already have a queue of people ready to meet her @ home and puppy classes booked.
> watched some vids from Ian Dunbar & Sirius berkley puppy training any thoughts on these yourself ?


hey, joanne! :--)

*dunbar + Sirius are both excellent resources - so are the TWO FREE BOOKS 
on Dog Star Daily website - 
_Before U get Ur puppy_ and _After U get Ur puppy_

congrats on the new-addition, :thumbup: 
- terry


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## Minmin

Hi, I just adopted my 3 months old lab around 2 weeks ago. Now I realised that she has a big problem in socialization. She is very afraid of strangers. As in the moment she saw a new people in house, she will hide in her own den, shaking and whining, if the person come closer, she will even pee in fear. How can I help her overcome this? Does this behaviour means that she was being mistreated by the first owner before? Unfortunately, we don't have any dogs social class here, so I have to help her myself. She is my first pet, I have no experience in dog training before. Please Help me!


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## leashedForLife

hey, *minMin!  don't panic, hun - we can help this puppy, U and i and anybody else who decides 
to chime in - she can get much better; she may never be a social butterfly, but she can relax and become 
less distressed; for now, don't let anyone walk toward her, instead let ==> her go to ==> them.

tell visitors to *pretend she's a cat* - IGNORE her; don't look at her, talk to her, or try to touch her at all; 
let her sniff their feet and walk away, while they pretend there is no puppy - YOU interact with her + monitor.


Minmin said:


> ...I [got] my 3-MO Lab around 2 weeks ago.
> Now I realised that she has a big problem in socialization. She is very afraid of strangers.
> ...the moment she [sees]... new people in [our] house, she will hide in her own den, shaking and whining;
> if the person [comes] closer, she will even pee in fear. How can I help her overcome this?
> Does this behaviour [mean] that *she was being mistreated* by the first owner, before [I got her]?


no - she may have met very few people, she may have had a shy mother who ran from strangers and taught 
her pups that strangers are scary, she may have inherited a globally fearful [scared of everything] temperament; 
she may have been punished for peeing in the house or chewing or some other puppy-mistakes, 
but it is also perfectly possible that she was never even scolded; we cannot be sure.

the previous owner may have been nice to the puppy, but not have *known* to have her meet others - 
all puppies need to meet many people, tall, short, men + women, children of all ages, fat + skinny, all colors, 
all ethnics, all languages, loud and quiet, jerky active kids + quiet gentle kids, *Every Possible Person - * 
with and without disabilities, smokers, singers, dancers, with a cane, a walker, a cast, a limp... all sorts.


Minmin said:


> Unfortunately, we don't have any dogs social class here, so I have to help her myself.
> *She is my first pet, I have no experience in dog training before.* Please Help me!


OK, these are the 3 bad things - U are an inexperienced owner, and _*fear*_ is a very difficult issue - 
even for highly-experienced owners who are very savvy about reading dogs. 
3rd, she is 3-MO - she has left her primary socialization-period. *making changes now takes more work - 
it is not impossible, but it takes more work for less result*, if U see what i mean?

*the good things are Two: she is very young; and she has you.*
if U really love her and are willing to try, miracles are possible; don't be discouraged, but do be realistic: 
this will be a lot of work, but the potential rewards are huge.

what country are U in, *minMin? there are things that can help, but getting them can be more or less awkward, 
depending upon where U are in the world.

*DAP pump-spray and DAP diffuser* would be my 1st suggestions. [/b]
DAP diffuser gets plugged into the wall receptacle, and the warmth sends it into the air; the dog inhales it. 
DAP is a pheromone which imitates the pheromone that a nursing-dam produces; all her pups are exposed 
to this, and it has a relaxing effect; blood-pressure drops, pulse slows, stress hormones fall, breathing slows. 
this is an involuntary reaction, *but it works best if it is already in use before the stress begins - 
if U wait till after the stress starts to apply DAP, it is less effective.*
if money is an issue, i would get the pump-spray as it can go anywhere U or the puppy go - and be re-applied. 
here are instructions for that and other calmatives - 
Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - dog body-language - and why it matters so much... 
use as many as U can afford, and i mean that literally - they make it so much easier! 

2nd thing after calmatives - read this page very carefully: 
Working with a fearful dog 
this is the FearfulDogs.com website - all of it is helpful, but this page is crucial; why? 
*because U need to keep her under her threshold - meaning she can see the scary stranger, 
but they're far-enuf away that she feels safe; she's alert, not alarmed.* once she's past her threshold, 
and reacting, she is too overwhelmed to learn new things - her brain drowns in stress reactions. 

3rd thing - _*please don't let anyone insist they can "make her relax", or allow them to invade her space - 
"all dogs love me" is a nice story, but she needs an advocate*_; be prepared to pick her up, walk away, 
PUT HER IN A LOCKED ROOM inside her crate, with a safe chew-toy - whatever it takes. 
one person who insists upon touching or cornering her can set her back for months, or longer. be strong!

4th thing: learn to read dogs - just like so many books. 
reading dogs means to look carefully at their behavior + body language to see how they feel, + their intentions: 
are they frightened? curious? excited? hesitant but curious? angry? do they want to bolt in panic? investigate? 
meet the other dog, or fight the other dog? *what's going on?* 
here are 2 wonderful websites to get U started - Turid Rugaas - Calming Signals Community 
for the next step - 
The Canine Behavior Blog » Welcome to The Canine Behavior Blog 
look at photos that *barbara marked and captioned - then look at plain photos, and see if Ur gut-hunch 
agrees with her description.

there are entire books of dog body-language, just like pictorial dictionaries, to help us understand dog emotions; 
here are 3 that are very good - 
***Amazon.com: On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals (9781929242368): Turid Rugaas: Books 
***Amazon.com: Canine Body Language: A Photographic Guide Interpreting the Native Language of the Domestic Dog (9781929242351): Brenda Aloff: Books 
***Woof and Word Press - the 2nd-edition of Handelman

if any of them is in the local library, read it carefully - the *second edition* of Handelman is magnificent, 
if U are going to *buy* one book, get that one; if U get it direct from *barbara, ask her to autograph it.  
Dogwise also carries the book,  but there's no autographing there. 
Welcome to Dogwise.com - Dog Books

5th thing: get a copy of this short paperback - 
Amazon.com: Help for Your Shy Dog: Turning Your Terrified Dog into a Terrific Pet (0021898050366): Deborah Wood: Books 
it's inexpensive, but if money is an issue borrow it from the library - Interlibrary loan brings it from another 
library to Ur local one, for the co$t of postage [which should be no more than $1 to $2 - it's a small book]. 
read it from cover to cover; it's well-written and intended for novice owners.

5th thing: join this Yahoo-group, it's free - 
shy-k9s : shy-k9s 
the other members also own fearful dogs, and if U join on that page [the JOIN button is at the bottom right] 
U can read all the archives on the MESSAGES pages - see the left side-bar? 
once U join, click on MESSAGES under 'Home' and U can read years of posts, with problems, suggestions, 
updates, crises and more; plus there are links to helpful websites, files of articles, etc.

if U have questions, feel free - and please do let us know how she is doing. 
 we all love to hear happy updates! 
cheers, 
- terry


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## lucylastic

In the past I have taken the vet advice too literally and got away with it because I've had laid back easy dogs. Now that I am older and wiser, I would always socialise a puppy as early as possible with carefully selected vaccinated dogs.


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## Shalize

Totally agree re early socialisation. There is a small risk but how many of us let our puppies out in the garden, or take them for a little walk even on pavements....or have other dogs.

Your dogs are at more risk of problem behaviour the longer you keep them indoors. Get them out as soon as you can, carry them everywhere if you want to, but get them into the world


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## DOGPERSON

From the many other articles I have read I completely agree with the 8 week to 16 week period being critical in getting a dog socialized.

The trick I have always found is getting the pup young enough and having it mostly vaccinated and then finding play companions that we know are safe.

I have heard that the parv virus can stay in soil for up to two years, so the safest thing we did was take our puppy after its first injections to a place where we knew the dog was vaccinated, was social and didn't have any un-vaccinated dogs in its yard for the last few years.

Yes its all a gamble, but not socializing a pup is usually far worse.


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## Roofs

Having spoken to a couple of vets they have advised that he should be fine outside after the first vaccination, just to avoid contact with unvaccinated dogs.

Since I bought him 9 days ago Rufus has:
-Met horses
-Met children
-Been to a shop (Pets at home!)
-Been on a car journey of up to half an hour
-Met lots of different adults, long hair, short hair, old, young, in cycle helmets
-Been to watch a hunt meet
-Met a cat
-Seen some chickens
-Spent a day at a different house (my in-laws, we had to go to a funeral)
-Seen cylclists
-Seen pushchairs
-We've met a labrador, a GSD, a westie and a lurcher 

We are enrolled on puppy training classes due to start the 1st week in April but they are happy for us to watch the current batch of classes until then so he can start to meet new dogs, as although he is fab with humans he's weary of other dogs.

We've got to the point now that when I'm carrying him and people come to say hello he will climb into thier arms, he also wants to stop and say hello to EVERYONE as he is now under the impression all people congregate to fuss over him! 

Now he has had his first jab I'm not too worried about infection, his 2nd is next Monday and then he'll have a week before he is 100% covered.


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## leashedForLife

U've done _*great*_ getting him out & about! :thumbup:

just one little quibble... 


Roofs said:


> ...he's had his 1st jab, I'm not too worried about infection,
> his 2nd is next Monday & then *he'll have a week before he's 100% [resistant]*.


that's not an accurate statement - it takes approx a month for full response from the individual's 
immune-system, so it wouldn't be a week later, but at least 21-days later that U might see a strong 
immune-response in a drawn titer [testing a blood-sample to rate the activity of their antigens].

a woman whose puppy was bitten by a bat who had been vaxed for rabies just 2-weeks earlier, 
was *furious & shocked* when her pup died of rabies.  
her vet had to explain that it's not a majik-bullet: get the shot = U're protected immediately. 
the immune-system has to learn to recognize the alien, & manufacture very-specific antigens to kill 
each particular virus / microbe, in quantities sufficient to wipe-out the invaders. That takes time.


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## Burrowzig

Even then, resistance can be less than 100%. Vaccinated dogs (and people) can still get the disease they were vaccinated against sometimes. Usually when this happens, the disease is less severe, and the immune system fights it off better. 

Sensible precautions.


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## MyBIGdog

As a veterinary nurse I get asked this frequently and I always recommend carrying your puppy around towns, busy places, meeting with vaccinated dogs in the home & car journeys etc till they have had their vacs. I would then tell them to start at a puppy socialisation course and continue on to an agility/obedience (or other type of training) when old enough to carry on with the training and socialisation.
We are lucky at the practice I work at we run puppy classes for puppies that have had their first vac but are not yet old enough to go outside this is a great way for young puppies to socialise and you really do notice the difference when they are older. We do see a few dogs with 'aggressive behavioural problems' where the owners havnt socialised etc and they come in saying they are willing to try anything to not have the dog pts, but as soon as you tell the owners it will not happen overnight and they find out how much the behaviourist is or an alternative home they decide they have not got the time or the dog has actually bitten their child and needs to be put down and don't want the dog to live with anyone else. People infuriate me sometimes!!

On a personal note with my own dogs my first was born and raised in a house with other dogs, children and other pets.

The second born and raised in a kennel outside of the house with just her mum and siblings.

I did the same with both carried them round, puppy classes etc until my bitch was 15wks old when she suffered a leg injury and had to be rested for 6wks I still carried on with our training classes.

But my little bitch is not as outgoing and not great with other dogs. Obviously not being able to continue her socialisation has had a dramatic effect on her behaviour, but even before her accident the difference between the two dogs was noticeable - so I'm with socialisation


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## Georgie beau

Hello all,
I took my puppy out straight away after he had all his injections as I think it's great to socialize a puppy straight away, but I was also worried about parvovirus etc but I just made sure he didn't eat anything when out.


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## leashedForLife

Georgie beau said:


> ... I think it's great to socialize a puppy straight away, but I was also worried about parvovirus, etc ---
> I just made sure *he didn't eat anything* when out.


Exposure to Parvo-virus isn't usually by *eating* something; puppies & dogs *sniff*, & the nose is the usual
route of exposure.

Also, pups can STEP on contaminated surfaces [grass, soil, concrete with feces or vomit, etc], then later they
may lick their paws, put their feet in their dish, & so on - but that's not as common.

Dogs who are vaxed with a *modified live-virus* [MLV] booster wil excrete live-virus in their stool
for up to 3-mos [90-days] post vaccine. The amount excreted is lower than that produced in a dog with an
active infection, but it's sufficient to cause *underage or feeble animals* to sicken.

If Ur vet offers the option, choose KILLED virus; if they don't, ask if they'd consider it. 

Normally-healthy pups who are AT LEAST 8-WO are at very-low risk of serious illness, even if they
catch Parvo; over 85% of pups who are 56-DO or more will survive Parvo with simple decent home-nursing,
altho of course i am not suggesting anyone decide to treat their pup without the aid of a vet! - OTOH, pups who 
are *6-WO or under - any pup who's 42-DO or younger, are at Much-Higher Risk:
over 85% of 6-WO or younger pups will die, DESPITE excellent vet-care.*

The risk isn't to pups who are 2-MO or older; it's to infant-pups who should still be in the nest, with Mom-dog.
Reasonable precautions to limit an 8-WO pup's exposure to heavy dog-use areas is quite safe; there is no need
to keep them only in the house, NEVER touch grass, avoid all dogs, etc. :yesnod: Really - just don't go to
dog-parks, bike-paths covered with poop, & similar areas. Stick to low-density dog use areas, & avoid
any toilet zones. :thumbup1:


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## Guest

I will be getting my puppy at 8 weeks of age. She will be microchipped and have her first vaccination before I get her home. I'm a bit confused about socialising, I plan to take her out as much as I can before she gets her vaccs at 10 weeks however I'm confused as to what you do when they need the toilet?. If you're not supposed to put them on the ground etc while out?


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## Burrowzig

spamvicious said:


> I will be getting my puppy at 8 weeks of age. She will be microchipped and have her first vaccination before I get her home. I'm a bit confused about socialising, I plan to take her out as much as I can before she gets her vaccs at 10 weeks however I'm confused as to what you do when they need the toilet?. If you're not supposed to put them on the ground etc while out?


Take them to toilet in your garden before you go out carrying them, but if they do need to go when you're out, choose a clean piece of paved ground. You could carry some newspaper to put down on it for extra protection. Pup will have had first vac a few days before you get them (?) so should have some antibodies. Check with your vet for what levels of parvo, leptospirosis are like in your area.


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## Guest

Burrowzig said:


> Take them to toilet in your garden before you go out carrying them, but if they do need to go when you're out, choose a clean piece of paved ground. You could carry some newspaper to put down on it for extra protection. Pup will have had first vac a few days before you get them (?) so should have some antibodies. Check with your vet for what levels of parvo, leptospirosis are like in your area.


Ah great, thanks for this


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## PeterJosy

I think dog sleep training is very useful. If they sleep at the right time and in the right way, there are many positive signs in their behavior. What do you think?
I got some useful information from this passage about dog's sleep training.
Do you see if their tricks are right? Let me know pls..
Peterjosy


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