# Dog has bitten someone :(



## AJ89 (Mar 6, 2010)

Hi, I'd really appreciate some advice on this.

Last week me and my ex boyfriend were walking his rottweiler and two middle-aged ladies jogged past us when Brikk bit the one closest.
He didn't growl or show any signs of attacking at all and the bite occurred literally, as she passed him. He let go but she fell to the ground.

Brikk is 1yr old and a very well behaved dog, hasn't bitten before and is even gentle when playing with his owner. He tends to be quite a softy in all honesty and this whole thing has surprised both me and the owner and everyone that we've told.

We think she wants to press charges and although we realise she completely has the right to and accept this, we don't feel that it's the dogs fault in any respect because the owner should have seen it coming and acted accordingly.

I'd just basically like some advice as to what we should do with Brikk. Since the bite we have put a muzzle on him and tried to stay away from public areas and even cross the road when people pass if we do go through public. I just want the jogger and the police to realise that we care and don't want this to happen ever again but we also don't want to lose Brikk.

Thanks for reading, I appreciate any support, advice or opinions.

Please feel free to email me - [email protected]


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

Im confused ... you say Brikk is you and your exes dog ... then talk about the owner as if it was someone else
who'se dog is he ?


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

Mese said:


> Im confused ... you say Brikk is you and your exes dog ... then talk about the owner as if it was someone else
> who'se dog is he ?


i was thinking the same lol


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## big_bear (Oct 5, 2009)

im so sorry hun im not very experienced in this but maybe it was the body language of the woman perhaps ?? i dont believe dogs bite for no reason but thats me and like i said im not very experienced im sure someone will be along soon too help u


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## AJ89 (Mar 6, 2010)

Mese said:


> Im confused ... you say Brikk is you and your exes dog ... then talk about the owner as if it was someone else
> who'se dog is he ?


Aaah, sorry, I didn't get sleep last night. My ex is the dogs owner, I was trying to make it clear that I'm not. But I know the dog well.


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## AJ89 (Mar 6, 2010)

big_bear said:


> im so sorry hun im not very experienced in this but maybe it was the body language of the woman perhaps ?? i dont believe dogs bite for no reason but thats me and like i said im not very experienced im sure someone will be along soon too help u


I don't think it was the womans fault in any sense but I do kinda feel that it's the same rule of not driving fast past horses..if that makes sense. She was jogging as usual as any jogger but I can see why it would look playful or worrying to a dog.

Thanks for your help though


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## sketch (Sep 19, 2009)

If this isnt his normal behaviour, my first port of call would be a check up at the vets, then go from there I think. Is he any different that normal behaviour wise
xx


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

I am confused too.

But regardless of who owns Brikk in general terms I would say I can see both sides of the coin. If I were randomly bit,I wouldnt be too impressed and would possibly see the dog as being untrustworthy which could lead to dangerous. Were it my Heidi, then I would obviously want to know why she behaved so out of character and the chance to try and get to the bottom of it. 

I suppose all you can hope for is a bit of mediation and a course of action that you can all agree to. Perhaps they would consider a behaviourist working with him and giving their opinion. 
Not an easy situation.
Sorry cant be much help but hope Brikk gets a chance for forgiveness.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

She might well press charges - or the police might insist on doing so since dog owners are usually an easy target. If it does go to court, a guilty plea and a pleae for mercy on the basis that the dog is now muzzled will probably be enough. They do not now have to order destruction.

Liz


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

You didnt mention whether she needed hospital treatment for the bite ... how severe was it ?

Is the dog insured ... im not totally au fait with insurance , but do you need to inform the insurance company that there may be a claim made (if she's going down that route)

Our old dog Buddy once nipped someone , way back when he was a year old  
just as we were leaving our house , he lurched forward and tore her trousers but didnt make contact with her skin , thank gawd
she was understanding , probably because I grovelled and apologised to the 'nth degree , and offered money towards a new pair of trousers , so I do know these things can happen , even with the sweetest dog alive


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## AJ89 (Mar 6, 2010)

sketch said:


> If this isnt his normal behaviour, my first port of call would be a check up at the vets, then go from there I think. Is he any different that normal behaviour wise
> xx


Not really, he's slightly depressed as he's lost his friend (the owner had to re-home the border collie a week before)


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## RachyBobs (Oct 18, 2009)

I do believe that dogs dont bite for no reason. I would imagine her body language didnt help, alot of dogs feel threatened if someone is running towards them and maybe staring directly at them and he may of mis-judged it as a threat and acted accordingly. My collie bit my brother in the face when he got closer to her, staring her eyes. It wasnt her fault - it was his for making her feel threatened. 

I would also make a appointment at the vets and have him checked over, sometimes they have a underlying conditon which may cause aggresion. 

Good Luck


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## AJ89 (Mar 6, 2010)

Mum2Heidi said:


> I am confused too.
> 
> But regardless of who owns Brikk in general terms I would say I can see both sides of the coin. If I were randomly bit,I wouldnt be too impressed and would possibly see the dog as being untrustworthy which could lead to dangerous. Were it my Heidi, then I would obviously want to know why she behaved so out of character and the chance to try and get to the bottom of it.
> 
> ...


We are speaking to various other dog owners about it and they all just think it was down to the lady jogging straight past him as she didn't really leave much personal space for Brikk or the owner. But we are going to arrange an appointment with the vet.

We'd like to get a behaviourist to show we're making some effort on Brikks part and we're hoping that will show the jogger that the owner is responsible and not care-free.

Can't say I'd appreciate getting bitten, especially by a rottie as they have such an awful rep and it's usually their owners


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## AJ89 (Mar 6, 2010)

lizward said:


> She might well press charges - or the police might insist on doing so since dog owners are usually an easy target. If it does go to court, a guilty plea and a pleae for mercy on the basis that the dog is now muzzled will probably be enough. They do not now have to order destruction.
> 
> Liz


He's already planning on pleading guilty when it comes to it. He even made sure he blamed himself in the statement and not the jogger or Brikk. They policeman that interviewed him was very forgiving as he was a dog owner myself but I can't say the same for the other guys who were insistent on making the dog out to be vicious. I think I'm bias though because I love the dog to pieces haha :/


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## AJ89 (Mar 6, 2010)

Mese said:


> You didnt mention whether she needed hospital treatment for the bite ... how severe was it ?
> 
> Is the dog insured ... im not totally au fait with insurance , but do you need to inform the insurance company that there may be a claim made (if she's going down that route)
> 
> ...


Yeah, the police got her an ambulance, I did see blood but I don't know anything more than that because she refused to let me anywhere near her once the police arrived, and I wasn't even with the dog.

The dog is insured but haven't mentioned anything about it yet, in fact that never even crossed my mind, which probably isn't a good thing!


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

Perhaps the vet could back you up on Brikks nature on a day to day basis, I have to say Fizz thinks anyone running her way is play time, ovbiously as she's a lot older we managed this earlier on but at the age of 18 months she'd try so hard to get to them so she could run and jump i had to shorten her lead right down and move her or she'd have done the whole nippy i wanna play thing....It sonds like the joggers took Brikk by surprise to be honest...he was perhaps scared and they made him jump? if so this might go in his favour as he is still so young and obviously still in training. I'd think the authorities if involved will give the owner a bit of a slap on the wrists but i dont think you'll lose brikk ....i sincerely hope not anyway, it sounds like a case not like the average dog bite cases you see.
Hope you get things sorted out, it sounds like you're doing eveythig you can to ensure it doesnt happen again
Clare xx


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

lizward said:


> She might well press charges - or the police might insist on doing so since dog owners are usually an easy target. If it does go to court, a guilty plea and a pleae for mercy on the basis that the dog is now muzzled will probably be enough. They do not now have to order destruction.


That plus 'we're seeing a behaviourist and working on things' might help.

I do think it's important to keep the 'blame' solely on the owner and dog - you're not supposed to drive fast close to horses because that is dangerous to the horse and the rider, not so much to the passer-by. 
If a dog is walked in a public place and appears to be calm, people can and will assume that they can just go about their business passing them at whatever speed they want to. And they should be able to assume that, the whole 'she must have done something' is an argument that is going to have the law come down on you like a ton of bricks. 
It really sucks, but I think there's nothing much that can be done besides shouldering the blame, admitting the problem and working on it.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Shame poor Brikk. Obviously losing his mate as left him a bit emotional. Hopefully mentioning that too would help.

It reminds me of a situation I found myself in a couple of years ago. Out riding my arab along narrow country lanes. A group of about 30 runners were on a booze run. They had a gazebo set up on a wide bridge full of booze and were running down the narrow lane, some with bottles towards it as we were coming up. Being an arab, Freddie is high spirited and always liked to have a jog too. He had dealt with the gazebo really well but load runner after another thoughtlessly jogging past was a bit much so I asked if they could possibly stop and walk past. Upshot was, some did, some didnt. When Freddie spun round and they realised how close his back legs were, that was a different story. I saw the angered faces but nipped it in the bud and reminded them that we rode in the area nearly every day - they were all strangers and I had asked them to be more considerate. I was lucky enough to be able to read that situation and try and deal with it. Unfortunately, you were not to know how Brikk was feeling or that he would react like that but I would say losing a mate will have upset him.
Hope Brikk gets the understanding that he deserves. Shame he felt the need to do it and couldnt have just threatened.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

So sorry this happened  There is always a specific procedure in relation to local legislation.
Do you know of a solicitor who understands dog control legislation? If not it is probably best that you contact one. I didn't even look to see where you are based, if you are in the Rep of Ireland you can contact me off the board and I will give you contacts of a dog legislation expert that we use here.

The solicitor will be able to support you and let you know what steps to take. You will also be able to have any contact with this lady through the solicitor.

The dog needs to be assessed by a vet and then referred to a behaviourist who will be willing to work with the legal side of things, should it come to that.

You need to get absolute full details of the damage done to this lady so that bite severity can be assessed - this often has a major impact on modification and obviously on the leagal issue. The blood may have been from the lady falling over or something so its important to get those details.

You also need to contact the insurance company, as of course they will look for any reason not to help you  and inform them of the details ASAP. Also read the fine print as your policy may not cover certain things...

I know I have implied in this post that its you that needs to do this but obviously the dog's owner does  Best of luck in all this.


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

RachyBobs said:


> I do believe that dogs dont bite for no reason. I would imagine her body language didnt help, alot of dogs feel threatened if someone is running towards them and maybe staring directly at them and he may of mis-judged it as a threat and acted accordingly.


Yeah, but that doesn't actually take the blame away from owner and dog. The public doesn't know these things, can't be expected to know how each individual dog might react (especially if it looked calm and wasn't threatening) and it's up to the owner to control the situation and educate the public.


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

I have emailed you. I would advise anyone in this situation to do as I did when faced with something similar: get legal advice.


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## AJ89 (Mar 6, 2010)

Thank you all so much for your advice, it's been very helpful and I appreciate it.

The owner's plan of action is going to be to call a solicitor and get legal advice, write a letter to the jogger hoping that she is okay and apologising for the events, getting him checked into the vets and calling a behaviourist.
Think as a back up, he's also going to get family members, friends and public that know Brikk, to do a mini statement about his usual behaviour because this was totally out of the blue and might come in handy if this runs to court.

Thanks again for your advice, at the very least we know how to stop this happening in the future.

I hope this never happens to you and your pets!  Thanks everyone!!


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Just a note there, don't make contact with the 'victim' until you have sought legal advice


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

I'm curious, why do you put victim in quotation marks?


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

ArwenLune said:


> I'm curious, why do you put victim in quotation marks?


If I'm honest I'm not sure why. Perhaps I thought that victim was too strong a word even though by definition it fits it seems a little melo-dramatic - I'm sure not to that woman however. And yes I have been bitten and yes in a situation where I was not expecting it nor was I interacting with the dog.

I hope the '' have not offended anyone :smile5:


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

Something very similar happened to me when i was very young and I was walking with my grandmother and her gsd, a runner came past way too close for his comfort and snapped at the side of the guy, he left a mark, but not dripping blood; a warning basically.
Luckily the guy realized he should have given a wider berth and although my gran was apologizing for Europe and telling him he was insured he just carried on running without a fuss.

There is often some precautions people should take when approaching a dog, running dead straight and so close is a bit risky; I have been bitten twice for doing silly things like that and felt like an idiot.

I agree to seek legal advice asap, contact the lady afterward without leaving it too late; get the dog checked up by the vet, seek a behaviourist.

I was once walking in a park and a runner came straight at us, clearly in a bad mood and kneed Ray in the face, he yelped so loud and kept licking his nose, I was in so much shock, if he bit the guy in response he still could have sued so I now make sure I put my self in between the dog and runners in narrow paths and take us off road on wider areas, too scared he might one day suddenly remember the episode.

At 12 months a dog is still a pup and learning, hopefully this lady was in shock and will be able to give him the benefit of the doubt and hopefully she is not hurt too bad. And hopefully she is not seeing this as a money opportunity either (well, they are out there).


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## AJ89 (Mar 6, 2010)

ArwenLune said:


> I'm curious, why do you put victim in quotation marks?


Because wheras i dont think it's her fault. I do believe she's doing it just to get money. The area is a very quiet area and most people do things like that to kick up fuss in the papers or get comp. I realise I seem a bit harsh by saying that but it's just my opinion :/


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## lucysnewmum (Feb 25, 2010)

i too hope all this gets sorted out reasonably quickly. it occurred to me that given the close proximaty of the jogger to the dog, and no doubt her arms were flapping about as she was running, that the dog felt threatened. you are doing the right thing by getting the dog vet checked, and a behaviourist called in. there may be an underlying issue that needs modifying and certainly muzzling when out is a step in the right direction for safety reasons now that he has bitten once. good luck with this. i hope all turns out well for the dog and also the lady who got bitten.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Who said the victim wants the dog put to death, maybe she would just like it to be under control.


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## lady_r0gue (Jul 22, 2009)

hawksport said:


> Who said the victim wants the dog put to death, maybe she would just like it to be under control.


Quite possibly - but while courts these days aren't necessarily bound to put dogs to death - that's kinda what one expects when someone takes someone else to court under the dangerous dogs act... I mean otherwise she would drop all all charges once she heard about the muzzle and behaviourist work they're doing and there wouldn't be a problem.... right?


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

I think you have been given some excellent advice from people here 

I havent been in your shoes but this is what i would do...


enroll in training classes ASAP, with the view to getting KC good citizen awards
 Employ a good behaviourist along with the training classes
 keep him muzzled and on a short lead when out walking
 ask for a full work up at the vets as some medical conditions can cause behavioural changes. I know its unlikely in this case, but it shows the courts that you are taking this seriously!
ask the vet for a character reference to his normal behaviour while under stress (vet practices are stressful places!)
get a good solicitor who understands dog law fully

when you can prove that you are doing everything in your power to correct the behaviour and admit guilt as your own fault, fingers crossed the judge will not issue a destruction order. The fact that your dog is still with you and has not been removed is a plus in your favour and gives you the opportunity to start putting things in place!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

OP, sorry to hear about your dog. Unfortunately a lot of dogs get worried by joggers and will lunge at them and if they are handy with their teeth someone will get hurt. The jogger is running towards them with arms going and looking very threatening. you and your bf have had a timely reminder of our responsibility to keep our dog's safe. I do hope you have a dog minded judge who will take into account the precautions you are now taking.
I have no idea if it is relevant but why did he have to rehome the collie - it could be something that will be asked in court.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

lady_r0gue said:


> Quite possibly - but while courts these days aren't necessarily bound to put dogs to death - that's kinda what one expects when someone takes someone else to court under the dangerous dogs act... I mean otherwise she would drop all all charges once she heard about the muzzle and behaviourist work they're doing and there wouldn't be a problem.... right?


Sometimes people say they will do thing but never actualy get round to doing it.
Last summer while sat at some picnic benches I saw a dog snap at somebody walking past, the owner apologized and the other person went on their way. A while later and the same thing happened again so I advised them that it would be a good idea to be a bit more aware of what was going on around the dog and take control of him. Less than half an hour later the dog had snapped at somebody else. This time the police were called out.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Just to add Sky was almost attacked by a rottweiler yesterday. I saw the man and his dog coming towards us and moved Sky closer to me as she's one of those "WANT TO PLAY" dogs and as we were about to pass the dog lunged for Sky. The man had no chance to react, he was pulled forward and all I could do was place myself inbetween the dog and Sky. If I hadn't she would have had some nasty injuries. Instead I have a badly scratched thigh where the dog caught me and I told him to get a muzzle on his dog asap. 

He knew his dog was aggressive, I could see him react and tighten the lead as soon as he saw us. I hope he heeds my advice, I didn't stay long enough for anything else as I wanted Sky out of there.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

It may be worth contacting Justice for Dogs, they do give free legal advice etc on all matters. it is also something that many people may wish to become a member of, fees are only small in relation to the help they can give.

Justice for Dogs 
Ann Harpwood is the driving force behind the invaluable service Justice for Dogs.

Born from her passion for all things canine and using her background in the legal profession, Ann started Justice for Dogs 14 years ago.

Justice for Dogs registered as a charity in 1995 (registered charity no. 1092084). This unique charity fights for the rights of dogs and dog owners. If you ever find yourself needing advice regarding laws, legislation and other legal matters canine related, Ann and her charity
can help. 

Ann fights against injustices towards dogs. Concerned owners can talk to Ann and receive legal advice on all manner of dog related issues.

Justice for Dogs is reliant on subscriptions and donations. Give them your support. You never know when you might need them.

Call Justice for Dogs for legal advice and assistance on all aspects of canine ownership.

Membership to Justice for Dogs costs as little as £9 per year. You will be entitled to free legal advice, specialising in canine cases. A donation is usually requested when legal work is carried out.

For more information tel: 01544 370213 


Mo


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## Baby British (Jan 24, 2010)

I just want to say that I really can see both sides here. I understand that the dog may well have interpretted the joggers behavior as threatening whereas I also understand how awful it must have been for the woman concerned. I love animals but at the same time can't say as I'd take to kindly to being randomly bitten whilst going about my business.

I think in muzzling the rottie and getting a behaviourist on board you are taking positive steps to prevent a repeat of the incident and I really hope that you get the out come that you most hope for in all of this. 

I would just say though that it may be worth adopting the muzzle as a long term measure when out in public places. Children often run about and move erratically which could be deemed as threatening behavior by a dog. As he has now bitten and done so without warning it's probably best to be safe than sorry.

Best of luck to you x


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## noogsy (Aug 20, 2009)

hi im sorry this has happened to you,
it sounds like the dog was startled and lunged,
it can happen to anyone.
i had a incident when my pup was 7 months old ,
a guys dog went for me and my pup,
i got bitten and my pup managed to scratch the other owner with his dew claw,he punctured the guys hand.
and it all happened in a second.
so these things can happen
i hope you manage to sort things out...love noogsy x


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## celicababe1986 (Jun 22, 2009)

oh no bad thing on both sides. Hope things turn in your favour and the lady is ok too.


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

Please let's not this become a debate, I am sure Lady_Rogue realized she got a bit too heavy in her comments towards the lady, she admitted that so let's cut some slack. We all get a bit heated at times, often based on our own experiences..

Truth of the matter here, nobody knows really what kind of bite it was and what kind of injury the lady has sustained. An ambulance and police have to be called for any incident like this, so if you call an ambulance they contact the police and vice versa. When there is a possible breach of a law like the DDA there is a need for evidence to be gathered, by the paramedic.
In the OP own words the lady did not let them close to see her injury , which to me (call me cynical), it is not a good sign as the dog was being kept away.

I suffered a very similar experience with some youngster so maybe I have a tendency to feel on the dog side, but that is based on my weariness of people around my dog being a staffy cross which (pretty much like a rotty), are often seen as money making (all you have to do is feel scared and all that)... Not implying this is the case here at all, a bite is a bite even though nobody and I say nobody knows if indeed he latched on or just nipped in fear and the blood came for the fall, for which she can still have compensation, but surely it makes the dog a bit less of a worry, please no slaughtering. 
This matter has to be dealt with legally as a dog's welfare is a stake, he is a 12 month old pup and a dog this age is still forming and learning, even if he is ordered to be muzzled for life and kept on leash and put on the register over this I think it's a great shame if it does turn out he only nipped.

To the OP, please do update, it is a very interesting subject for us all dog owners in this day and age, do not get put off if a debate comes out of this. Your ex is taking all the right steps to resolve this.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Its very unlikely to be pts for a first bite under these circumstances.


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## gesic (Feb 19, 2009)

Can I just check if you have been to vets yet??
If not please ensure they check eyesight...just thinking if there was a problem here and his vision was impared??Or even walking in direct sunlight?
If he is not able to visulise properly perhaps he did not see the jogger till last sec and it frightened him and was a reflex response rather that a aggressive one?
Also can you get a temprement test by a professional just to add more evidence that this was out of charecter??


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

I *think* ive deleted all the unhelpful posts and kept this informative and on topic.

Apologies if it now makes no sense


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> I *think* ive deleted all the unhelpful posts and kept this informative and on topic.
> 
> Apologies if it now makes no sense


Oh Nonnie I hadn't realised you'd been made a mod. Congrats!


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

AJ89 said:


> *Brikk is 1yr old and a very well behaved dog*, hasn't bitten before and is even gentle when playing with his owner. He tends to be quite a softy in all honesty and this whole thing has surprised both me and the owner and everyone that we've told.


Dont mean to state the obvious - but your dog isnt well behaved if hes just bitten somone.

you need to get a muzzle immediately, you can never trust this dog or feel that in a years time it wont do the same thing again.

You need to enter into some serious training or have it destroyed in my view. Little dogs do get exception with similar stories but large breeds can obviously cause a lot more damage, which is only your responsibilty to take care of. I dont believe in second chances with things like this, though I realise im talking from an outsiders viewpoint.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

A one year old dog of previous good character that bites when somebody runs at them hardly warrants a lifetime of being muzzled. Some training and a bit of educacation for the owner would be more appropriate.


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## Baby British (Jan 24, 2010)

hawksport said:


> A one year old dog of previous good character that bites when somebody runs at them hardly warrants a lifetime of being muzzled. Some training and a bit of educacation for the owner would be more appropriate.


Another outside opinion here but I would always muzzle whilst the dog was in a public place seen as it offered no warning before biting on this occasion. If this isn't done then the owner may well have their work cut out pre empting possible triggers of aggression out on walks. If this were me I'd be constantly on edge and I know that these emotions can transfer to animals. I just think that a muzzle could offer peace of mind all round.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Baby British said:


> Another outside opinion here but I would always muzzle whilst the dog was in a public place seen as it offered no warning before biting on this occasion. If this isn't done then the owner may well have their work cut out pre empting possible triggers of aggression out on walks. If this were me I'd be constantly on edge and I know that these emotions can transfer to animals. I just think that a muzzle could offer peace of mind all round.


I agree. Alongside the above I would be aware that the publics perception of this particular breed is not good at the best of times. Its so unfortunate that he just happens to be a rottie and has bitten, but the public will just see "dangerous dog breed gone savage". For your protection and his if i was in your position i would be muzzling and keeping on a short lead when walking. Even in open areas where there are no other people i would still keep him muzzled and use a long line to allow him to run.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

I doubt very much that there was no warning, just that the owner either didn't see it or didn't recognise it.


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## Baby British (Jan 24, 2010)

hawksport said:


> I doubt very much that there was no warning, just that the owner either didn't see it or didn't recognise it.


I agree here but constantly checking your dog for signs that it's going to lunge at someone combined with being vigilant to the behavior of other people around him doesn't exactly make for an enjoyable walk.

If the owner were to slip up and not notice a possible situation arising then the next time it could be of dire consequence to both dog, owner and the prospective victim.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I have worked with dogs all my life, I can read them fairly accurately but I have been flummoxed by rotties and have no idea what they are thinking so it might have been hard for the owner to notice anything amiss.


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## Jackie99 (Mar 5, 2010)

I don't believe the dog should be muzzled every time he is out in public for the rest of his life. I may be wrong but I just hate seeing a dog with a muzzle always on, I think it is really restricting and see it as a sort of punishment for them. This dog has bitten someone once. In an ideal world joggers would stop and walk past dogs when they see them. I guess some dogs may see someone running head on in their direction as a threat. It isn't an excuse it is just possible. The owner/friend of the owner on here sounds very responsible from what we can tell and caring who is willing to do all they can. I think both dog and owner should be made to go to training classes and see a good behaviourist.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

hawksport said:


> I doubt very much that there was no warning, just that the owner either didn't see it or didn't recognise it.


Unless your experienced in handling rotties they dont usually give any warning before an attack. They eyeball their target which is neither easy to spot or easy to distinguish from a genuine interest. The risk should not need thinking about, especially if in the events after it wasnt handled absolutely perfectly so as to ensure it wouldnt happen again.(which I doubt)

A muzzle should be worn and the event shouldnt be played down - they can cause a lot of damage. The dog could plainly see the joger approaching so its not as if it were taken by surprise, a misdemeanor would have been a bark - a bite is a full on strike 3 and out.


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## estalearottweilers (Mar 30, 2008)

james1 said:


> Unless your experienced in handling rotties they *dont usually give any warning before an attack*. *They eyeball their target which is neither easy to spot or easy to distinguish from a genuine interest*. The risk should not need thinking about, especially if in the events after it wasnt handled absolutely perfectly so as to ensure it wouldnt happen again.(which I doubt)
> 
> A muzzle should be worn and the event shouldnt be played down - they can cause a lot of damage. The dog could plainly see the joger approaching so its not as if it were taken by surprise, a misdemeanor would have been a bark - a bite is a full on strike 3 and out.


what a load of old rubbish rottweilers do give warnings as do any other breed of dog.

you only have to know dogs NOT JUST ROTTWEILERS to know when a dog is not happy.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

estalearottweilers said:


> what a load of old rubbish rottweilers do give warnings as do any other breed of dog.
> 
> you only have to know dogs NOT JUST ROTTWEILERS to know when a dog is not happy.


it is not rubbish. See my post. Rotties are (to me) the most expressionless dogs and as I can read every other dog far better than your average pet owner then I would be most surprised if a pet owner would have a clue. A lot dont with even very obvious signs.

I can see nothing wrong with the dog wearing a muzzle in public. Very many do and it is not a punishment, it is a safeguard for the public, the owner and not least the dog.


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## estalearottweilers (Mar 30, 2008)

Blitz said:


> it is not rubbish. See my post. Rotties are (to me) the most expressionless dogs and as I can read every other dog far better than your average pet owner then I would be most surprised if a pet owner would have a clue. A lot dont with even very obvious signs.
> 
> I can see nothing wrong with the dog wearing a muzzle in public. Very many do and it is not a punishment, it is a safeguard for the public, the owner and not least the dog.


FACT you are wrong. 25yrs of owning breeding and showing them tells me just that.

and where did i say the dog in Q should be wearing a muzzle? i agree the dog should be wearing a muzzle.

i also agree the dog needs to be going to training classes.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

The rott who went for Sky was very expressive if you can call its hackles rising, barking, lunging and growling expressive.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

estalearottweilers said:


> what a load of old rubbish rottweilers do give warnings as do any other breed of dog.
> 
> you only have to know dogs NOT JUST ROTTWEILERS to know when a dog is not happy.


Im afraid your wrong, I used to attend training lessons with an agressive breed specialist - he worked mostly with working dogs - rotts, GSD's, bull mastiffs, even within Official Appointments to various roles, so he know his soup for over 30 years. This is what he announced to the group, as at the time we had a highly volotile Rott in with us. We all watched as we took turns to pass it - those it eyed - it would attempt an attack. Rotts rarely give indication when they bite, though they may well give expression for other instances.


Blitz said:


> it is not rubbish. See my post. Rotties are (to me) the most expressionless dogs and as I can read every other dog far better than your average pet owner then I would be most surprised if a pet owner would have a clue. A lot dont with even very obvious signs.


Thanks, its always useful to know what might be the signal for an attack - without an idea people are behind before they've even started.


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## dinks (Apr 10, 2009)

Hi James - so is your opinion based on observing this one single volatile rottiweiler?
Have to say we see rottweilers at work that are unpredictable.......but i also see a heck of alot of other breeds that are also unpredictable at work to.
Just curious if this was a jrt or a yorkie...which are to renowned for being nippy would we be getting the same reaction......
In my opinion this person is doing what they can to try to rectify the situation-some posters have been very quick to send the dog down death row....we have absolutely no idea what went on that day so who are we to judge what happens to Brikk.The poster has had some excellent advice and appears to want to do everything in their power to help Brikk and his owner.I think we need to remember this is someones dearly loved pet just as it could be one any one of ours.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

estalearottweilers said:


> FACT you are wrong. 25yrs of owning breeding and showing them tells me just that.
> 
> and where did i say the dog in Q should be wearing a muzzle? i agree the dog should be wearing a muzzle.
> 
> i also agree the dog needs to be going to training classes.


the comment about the muzzle was not aimed at you, it was aimed at all those that said a dog should not wear a muzzle.

I hope you can read your dogs, if you are a rottie owner with great experience. But I cant - and as I can read other dogs well then I dont think it would be far fetched to say it is doubtful an ordinary owner can read the signals.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

dinks said:


> Hi James - so is your opinion based on observing this one single volatile rottiweiler?
> Have to say we see rottweilers at work that are unpredictable.......but i also see a heck of alot of other breeds that are also unpredictable at work to.
> Just curious if this was a jrt or a yorkie...which are to renowned for being nippy would we be getting the same reaction......


No my opinion is based on somone that deals first hand with dogs like this on a daily basis - and as ive said, has done for the last 30 years. We didnt only have the one rott in with us we had several though these were more even tempered. Having said that, when approaching this dog in particular they would lunge out of no where, not even standing off or pulling on approach..

I said in my previous posts that its just as big a problem with other dogs. Its simply that if a JRT bites you it is unlikely to cause massife injury as this breed would if it had intent.


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## huskiesaregreat (Sep 24, 2009)

I can see the point from both sides, yes the dog may have been well behaved before this incident, but i would be cautious and muzzling the dog for the time being while the dogs behaviour is looked into and vet checks for possible conditions which may cause him to be a bit grumpy? better to be safe and muzzle, than not muzzled and sorry for if he bites again.

As for blaming a jogger, i can't see how she can be blamed for jogging,
dog owners should have full control of their dogs, even if their was no warnings, most dogs would be either excited at the sight of a jogger or terrified. maybe he bit out of fear agression or something?

I fully understand if the woman presses charges, if i was bitten randomly in public by a dog i didnt know i would do the same.. if it was a dog of someone i knew i would be a bit more sympathetic.

I am glad you have insurance, as it might be needed..
try not to worry too much.

As for dogs being destroyed, i dont know what the rules are, if they have changed or whatever.

I know my cousin was bitten as a child and the dog was destroyed.


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## AJ89 (Mar 6, 2010)

gesic said:


> Can I just check if you have been to vets yet??
> If not please ensure they check eyesight...just thinking if there was a problem here and his vision was impared??Or even walking in direct sunlight?
> If he is not able to visulise properly perhaps he did not see the jogger till last sec and it frightened him and was a reflex response rather that a aggressive one?
> Also can you get a temprement test by a professional just to add more evidence that this was out of charecter??


It was about 8pm or there abouts, but it was recent since the cold nights have gotten cold and dark, but there's nothing wrong with his vision as he had a recent vet check about two weeks prior the incident.


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## AJ89 (Mar 6, 2010)

Just a quick update for the concerned 

I'm out of town at the moment so I'm only in contact with the owner through emails, I have been forwarding all your helpful replies though 

He hasn't told me whether he's actually boooked the appointment but I know he's consulting with a vet. The owner seems to think it may be a good idea to neuter him but I'm very sad to hear that as I think nearly all behavoural problems can be solved with knowledge and support from handlers etc. Unless of course it's a mating problem!

He's waiting to hear from the police as they haven't been in touch since that night. But we do know she's pressed charges as she did this on the night, though she may have dropped them.

Brikk is wearing his muzzle for walks, but when the owner takes him to the countryside and quiet, wild area's he's removing the muzzle. I don't like seeing dogs with muzzles either but I think it's neccessary since this happened. And to be honest Brikk doesn't seem to mind once he's out and about in the fresh air!

No letters have been written but he's waiting for his solicitor to arrive back from holiday, so in the mean time we have both been collecting notes from family, friends and public about his usual behaviour, incase we need it as a back-up.


...That's all I can think of at the moment. 

@ The Rottweiler expert, if I'm allowed to call you that?  
-I agree that Rotteweilers tend to be very hard to read, but it's not impossible. Many a time he has warned the owner of something by growling with his nose in the air and it's turned out to be a cat on the wall in the back-garden. I've also noticed that whereas he doesn't growl at people or show aggression, I can tell he's uneasy because he tends to look up at the owner and stays very close to either of us


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

I too think its a shame to neuter but you have to remember the general publics perception (and that includes the police and the courts) of a dog that has bitten, even once. It would certainly add weight to your ex's case if he had him neutered, so there was no chance of him breeding and also because the public seem to assume that neutering is a "fix all" for behavioural problems. Lets be honest should he really be bred from with such a large blot on his resume? If not then there isnt really a reason not to neuter.

At 12mo i would still like to wait until he was fully mature, he is only now heading into that teenage dog phase, when many dogs become more difficult and push all their boundaries. ITs not an excuse for what he's done but perhaps its part of the reason.

Its a shame he hasnt yet been to the vets. I would be asking for a full blood profile as a minimum, as certain conditions such as thyroid trouble can present with unpredictable behavioural changes, and in the early stages very little else. Please if you can urge him reconsider.

Has he had the dog assessed by a behaviourist? and enrolled in training classes?

He has to consider the breed he has, and that it was a severe enough bit to warrent hospital treatment... There is a very real possibility of the judge ordering a destruction notice. The recent cases of dog attacks in the media arent going to help his case. His owner needs to prove that he is doing everything to rectify it, and that in all other respects the dog is a model citizen. Notes from people in the park whilst beneficial will not carry the same weight as a full assessment, backed up with training awards.


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

Thanks for the update.

I agree with above, if this comes to court your friend has to able to show that absolutely everything is being done to understand the reasoning behind the episode and every step is taken to prevent it from happening again.

Where about is your friend based? Some one here might be able to recommend a behaviourist local to him and with proven experience and reliability. Vets are hardly knowledgeable enough in matter of behaviour and will always call for the chop as a first measure for containing a dog, even though in this particular case it will be probably called for.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

AJ89 said:


> @ The Rottweiler expert, if I'm allowed to call you that?
> -I agree that Rotteweilers tend to be very hard to read, but it's not impossible. Many a time he has warned the owner of something by growling with his nose in the air and it's turned out to be a cat on the wall in the back-garden. I've also noticed that whereas he doesn't growl at people or show aggression, I can tell he's uneasy because he tends to look up at the owner and stays very close to either of us


You know a growl can be playful? Just goes to show how much reading is necessay. 
If the dogs staying close to you then this means its nervous, this means it will be pretty unpredictable and youll never know what triggers it as it could be a range of things. You will also not be able to predict when the dog becomes overloaded, i.e its threshold before a bite. 

A muzzle is a very good bet.


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

I keep looking at this every day and trying to see it from all sides.

I dont jog, but if I did I wouldnt jog in biting range of a rottie or similar dog. I would either carry on jogging and give him a wide berth, maybe crossing the road or taking a small detour; or I would slow down until there was enough room to pass the dog walkers. Just as someone else said, its like when you are driving and approach a horse and riders. You slow right down and when you do pass them you give them a wide berth.

How close did the jogger get to the dog without slowing down? Did they attempt to slow down?


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

alysonandhedley said:


> I keep looking at this every day and trying to see it from all sides.
> 
> I dont jog, but if I did I wouldnt jog in biting range of a rottie or similar dog. I would either carry on jogging and give him a wide berth, maybe crossing the road or taking a small detour; or I would slow down until there was enough room to pass the dog walkers. Just as someone else said, its like when you are driving and approach a horse and riders. You slow right down and when you do pass them you give them a wide berth.
> 
> How close did the jogger get to the dog without slowing down? Did they attempt to slow down?


You are exactly right i was thinking the same ive had joggers run up behind and ive not realised they were there till they ran passed and many times theyve made me jump ime sure it was just a case of the dog bein startled, i know that doesnt help the situation but i do think its a bit of a calmer for the future i wouldnt be worried that this dog is aggressive, some members of the public just dont understand dogs or dont want to, hope this ends well.


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## dinks (Apr 10, 2009)

Iv also just noticed this happened at 8pm at night......assuming it was dark even a dog with great eyesight would be blooming well startled at someone coming jogging directly at them!


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Yeah no harm in a good nibble eh 

I get hungry around that time myself!


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## AJ89 (Mar 6, 2010)

Blitz said:


> OP, sorry to hear about your dog. Unfortunately a lot of dogs get worried by joggers and will lunge at them and if they are handy with their teeth someone will get hurt. The jogger is running towards them with arms going and looking very threatening. you and your bf have had a timely reminder of our responsibility to keep our dog's safe. I do hope you have a dog minded judge who will take into account the precautions you are now taking.
> I have no idea if it is relevant but why did he have to rehome the collie - it could be something that will be asked in court.


The border-collie was mine, when we lived together. I had to move to London to be with my mother and didn't find anywhere I was happy to leave him so left him with my ex-boyfriend knowing that he would be taken care of until a suitable home/shelter was found for him.
And to clarify, Brikk was his dog and he couldn't really afford the up-keep of two dogs. And Border-collies need much more exercise and whereas both dogs were great with the two of us, two dogs between one isn't really fair on either the owner or the dogs, so it was one of those decisions we have to make sometimes.


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## AJ89 (Mar 6, 2010)

alysonandhedley said:


> I keep looking at this every day and trying to see it from all sides.
> 
> I dont jog, but if I did I wouldnt jog in biting range of a rottie or similar dog. I would either carry on jogging and give him a wide berth, maybe crossing the road or taking a small detour; or I would slow down until there was enough room to pass the dog walkers. Just as someone else said, its like when you are driving and approach a horse and riders. You slow right down and when you do pass them you give them a wide berth.
> 
> How close did the jogger get to the dog without slowing down? Did they attempt to slow down?


No attempt to slow down, no. This is why I was a bit upset about the police not taking notice when I mentioned the amount of space we had.
The area where it happened was near the end of a narrow pavement. Building to the left and a car parked on the right. The two ladies passed us just as we were coming to the corner, never slowed down and the jogger that was bitten, skimmed past him, she didn't touch him but if it were a person she'd have clipped shoulders. Does that make sense?


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## AJ89 (Mar 6, 2010)

dinks said:


> Iv also just noticed this happened at 8pm at night......assuming it was dark even a dog with great eyesight would be blooming well startled at someone coming jogging directly at them!


In all honesty nothing passes Brikk, I never used to be able to into the room when he was sleeping, even when totally silent, he'd open an eye, see me and go back to sleep 

So I believe he saw her coming, and there was street lamps near by, I just think she didn't give him enough room, and as there were two joggers and they both took either side of us, I think maybe he was being protective, but I wouldn't bank on that either.

Thank you all again for you well wishes and advice!

@James1
- I realise a growl can be playful, yes. And I realise a dog staying close is an act of nervousness, but with certain people I believe it's an act of protection/instinct.

When me and my ex-boyfriend decided to get a dog, we set out to be responsible as well as caring. We took the training very seriously and had help from friends to deal with behavioural problems, like over excitedness.
I, especially, read many books on both breeds and took advice from vets and other dog-owners. We also watched programmes like the Dog Whisperer.
-I'm not saying this to sound like an expert in any sense, because of course I've made mistakes with both of them. 
I'm saying this because it wasn't like getting a dog because it would be cool, we got both dogs because we enjoyed the lifestyle that comes with having a dog. The pack instincts, the walks, the training and handling, the caring and the work side of it. 
I would never have gotten a Rottweiler of all dogs, if I knew nothing about their behaviour, likely health issues, exercise needs etc.


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

AJ89 said:


> No attempt to slow down, no. This is why I was a bit upset about the police not taking notice when I mentioned the amount of space we had.
> The area where it happened was near the end of a narrow pavement. Building to the left and a car parked on the right. The two ladies passed us just as we were coming to the corner, never slowed down and the jogger that was bitten, skimmed past him, she didn't touch him but if it were a person she'd have clipped shoulders. Does that make sense?


If they actually "squeezed" the two of you there might have been warning signs which you all would have missed, like a lip curl and a fixed stare to warn the jogger to give more space. There might have been a low growl. I think the circumstances the dog found it himself might have been quite conclusive to his act, ideally you would have witnesses to confirm this and a more understanding police would mention all this in the report and try and mediate with the jogger victim.. When we had a similar situation with a teenager persistently annoying a friend's 10 month old dog that resulted in a nip to the trousers and a scratch to his leg the police was called, but lucky for us one was a dog owner with a similar age dog, handled the pup for reactiviness and believed our versions of events, ended up with a talk to the group of teenagers and the matter ended there, in fact the teens got a ban from the park and we got an apology. A less understanding/mediating policeman and the matter would have ended much worse for my friend. In your case there is a proper bite so it is clearly different and will have to be going further, people need to know to be sensible around dogs, but are not compelled to do that.

I hope it gets resolved, I think the age of the dog has so much to do with this, he is making that transition from puppy to adult and the time he starts to deal with things in a different way, a few months back he might have shrunk a bit towards his owner and showed clearly fearful behaviour at 12 mth he takes matter in his own hands a bit more. I have had the same problem with mine and dogs, he does need a lot of training to curb this out, by no means think this might have been a one off, his behavior worked as far as he is concerned. A good behaviorist will assess him with plenty stooges to see if the reaction is likely to reemerge and work on some desensitization plan and condition a no guarding reaction.


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## kaz_f (Mar 8, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> I think you have been given some excellent advice from people here
> 
> I havent been in your shoes but this is what i would do...
> 
> ...


I totally agree I think this is top notch advice. Take as many preventative measures as possible to stop this ever happening again, get some advice and hope that the lady is as understanding as she can be. The owner needs to demonstrate that everything possible is being done to try and rectify the situation. That would be my approach and I would certainly muzzle when in close proximity to other people at least for the forseeable future. I hope it all works out well as it must be upsetting for both sides.


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