# Frontline -Fipronil/toxicity/siezures



## Miss chief (Jun 24, 2011)

No more Frontline for Mischief who was diagnosed epileptic early this year 

The Rape seed thread got me thinking because I am surrounded by fields of crops which are always getting sprayed. Then I looked for spraying of crops which tooks ages as I was putting in the wrong words for a search. By accident I found myself looking at Fipronil an ingredient of Frontline

This link

Veterinary toxicology: basic and ... - Google Books

says Fipronil can cause tremores convulsions and seizures. WTF


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

I think it's probably in v extreme cases (havent read the link) but must admit I've stopped as many chemicals as I can. As the little critters get more immune the chemicals get stronger and so on.
One of the flea treatments someone here used and where the dog had been lying on the sofa, it had burned thro the leather - that was enough for me
Have to say, however harsh - I'd rather she had a flea!!


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## Miss chief (Jun 24, 2011)

Mum2Heidi said:


> I think it's probably in v extreme cases (havent read the link) but must admit I've stopped as many chemicals as I can. As the little critters get more immune the chemicals get stronger and so on.
> One of the flea treatments someone here used and where the dog had been lying on the sofa, it had burned thro the leather - that was enough for me
> Have to say, however harsh - I'd rather she had a flea!!


*One of the flea treatments someone here used and where the dog had been lying on the sofa, it had burned thro the leather *

I got through a lot of info on fipronil today when I eventually used words such as herbiside, yes a herbiside for spraying crops I cant believe I have put this stuff on my dog regularly


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

I have used Frontline for years on all my dogs and cats, but Quinny had a massive allergic reaction to it that caused myositis - basically that's an autoimmune disease which causes the body to destroy its own muscle tissue. He was so ill we thought we were going to lose him. The company insist it couldn't have been the Frontline, but the vet thinks otherwise - and we had almost £2,000 of tests done to rule out all sorts of things such as Addison's Disease. He has recovered now and is fit and well - but I've not used it since.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2011)

Mum2Heidi said:


> I think it's probably in v extreme cases (havent read the link) but must admit I've stopped as many chemicals as I can. As the little critters get more immune the chemicals get stronger and so on.
> *One of the flea treatments someone here used and where the dog had been lying on the sofa, it had burned thro the leather *- that was enough for me
> Have to say, however harsh - I'd rather she had a flea!!


OMG! That's terrifying 

What is the alternative to such strong products? That's terrified me :crying: xxxx


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> I have used Frontline for years on all my dogs and cats, but Quinny had a massive allergic reaction to it that caused myositis - basically that's an autoimmune disease which causes the body to destroy its own muscle tissue. He was so ill we thought we were going to lose him. The company insist it couldn't have been the Frontline, but the vet thinks otherwise - and we had almost £2,000 of tests done to rule out all sorts of things such as Addison's Disease. He has recovered now and is fit and well - but I've not used it since.


I was talking to a lady the other day who's dog had had a cruciate op. She said he also had Addisons according to her vet but she had done lots of research especially in America and is convinced it's connected to years of unnecessary boosters


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Eroswoof said:


> OMG! That's terrifying
> 
> What is the alternative to such strong products? That's terrified me :crying: xxxx


Saw this advertised recently Fine Fettle Flygon, comes in a spray its a solution of bitter herbs so natural. Its said to form a barrier on the skin to repel insects including, fleas, ticks,lice,midges and wasps safe for use on all mammals, including dogs,horses and even us. It also relieves itchy skin apparently when sprayed on it calms soothes and cools the irritation. Not tried it yet, but if it does what it says on the tin!! at £10.98 for the 250ml size not wildly expensive so may be worth a shot.

For a Healthy Future! | Fine Fettle Feed if you want a look.

Oh just one thing it says as the herbs have a bitter taste you just need to be careful when using on the face. But I should imagine you could just spray some on you hand or a cloth and just wipe it around the head area.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Miss chief said:


> No more Frontline for Mischief who was diagnosed epileptic early this year
> 
> The Rape seed thread got me thinking because I am surrounded by fields of crops which are always getting sprayed. Then I looked for spraying of crops which tooks ages as I was putting in the wrong words for a search. By accident I found myself looking at Fipronil an ingredient of Frontline
> 
> ...


I have given this link before, cant remember if it was on one of your threads,
but its a fantastic site for owners of dogs that have seizures, it covers absolutely everything, diseases that cause seizures, medication, diets that have been know to help. I found it when researching when my dog started to have seizures 6mths ago, she was ready to be written off with idopathic epilespsy, which at the end of the day only means seizures of unknown cause. She was 2yrs, turned out she has auto immune thyroiditis, Hypo Thyroid that can be linked to seizures. Been on the Meds for 6mths and so far so good. It lists all the known causes that can cause seizures too.

Canine epilepsy and diseases that cause seizures in dogs

The uses for Fipronil are listed as control ants, beetles, cockroaches,fleas,ticks and termites, in humans it says short term direct contact can cause slight irritation, Reports of individuals who have ingested it problems are listed as sweating, nausea, vomiting,headaches,stomach pain, dizziness, weakness and seizures. When Ive checked up the side effects on dogs before I remember they are very similar or can be.

You always seem to find out more by looking up the chemical in it rather than the brand name.


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## Miss chief (Jun 24, 2011)

Found this at the website below

Fipronil is classed as a WHO Class II moderately hazardous pesticide

*Fipronil is neurotoxic in both rats and dogs as shown in the acute and sub-chronic screening in the rat, developmental neurotoxicity and chronic carcinogenicity studies in the rat and in two chronic dog studies*(38).
There has been a low incidence of severe skin reactions to Frontline Spray treatment, Top Spot for Cats and Top Spot for Dogs, mostly resulting in skin irritation and/or hair loss at the site of application. There is some suggestion that dogs are more severely affected than cats(39).

Fipronil


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## Nellybelly (Jul 20, 2009)

I dont use frontline. It burned the skin on my Nelson's neck and it took him over 2 weeks to recover. I just use flea/tick collars now for Bella and not had a problem!


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Fine Fettle Flygon sounds excellent. I tried Flea away - a concoction of herbs and homeopathy that goes onto the neck. Wasnt that effective.

I now use a homeopathic sulphur remedy one a week on Heidi and cats with great success. I give Heidi garlic occasionally too.


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## henry (Mar 16, 2009)

Mum2Heidi said:


> I was talking to a lady the other day who's dog had had a cruciate op. She said he also had Addisons according to her vet but she had done lots of research especially in America and is convinced it's connected to years of unnecessary boosters


I do use Frontline occasionally and sometimes Advocate as we've had several cases of lungworm around this area. The reason I use Frontline is we regularly go to Knole, which is a large estate with a wild deer herd and Henry has picked up a couple of ticks there.

Re. the boosters - my Vet is now only partially-vaccinating Henry as he agrees that boosters should only be given if really necessary so we are alternating the different elements of the boosters and will stop completely eventually. This seems like a good compromise to me.


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## Miss chief (Jun 24, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> I have given this link before, cant remember if it was on one of your threads,
> but its a fantastic site for owners of dogs that have seizures, it covers absolutely everything, diseases that cause seizures, medication, diets that have been know to help. I found it when researching when my dog started to have seizures 6mths ago, she was ready to be written off with idopathic epilespsy, which at the end of the day only means seizures of unknown cause. She was 2yrs, turned out she has auto immune thyroiditis, Hypo Thyroid that can be linked to seizures. Been on the Meds for 6mths and so far so good. It lists all the known causes that can cause seizures too.
> 
> Canine epilepsy and diseases that cause seizures in dogs
> ...


Yes it was one of my threads, I have been looking again and found a quite a new product but I do not know if it is here in the uk yet, but to me 176 dogs does not seem like a thorough study, it says, Adverse Reactions: In a well-controlled US field study, which included a 176 treated with TRIFEXIS, then its says one dog administered TRIFEXIS experienced a single mild seizure 2 ½ hours after receiving the second monthly dose. What if every 1 dog in 176 that suffered a mild seizure was put on medication for epilepsy? It has me wondering if my Mischief could have been a 1 in 176? If she is does she really need to be on meds?There were other reactions to triflexis on the website

DailyMed: About DailyMed


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Miss chief said:


> Yes it was one of my threads, I have been looking again and found a quite a new product but I do not know if it is here in the uk yet, but to me 176 dogs does not seem like a thorough study, it says, Adverse Reactions: In a well-controlled US field study, which included a 176 treated with TRIFEXIS, then its says one dog administered TRIFEXIS experienced a single mild seizure 2 ½ hours after receiving the second monthly dose. What if every 1 dog in 176 that suffered a mild seizure was put on medication for epilepsy? It has me wondering if my Mischief could have been a 1 in 176? If she is does she really need to be on meds?There were other reactions to triflexis on the website
> 
> DailyMed: About DailyMed


when my dog had seizures and I saw the neurologist in between having the blood taken for the thyroid test and getting the results, he did say he would have done the thyroid test if I hadnt because of the link to seizures it would have been done as standard. Anyway he went ahead with the brain scan and 
nothing showed as a cause. So it was then (bearing in mind thyroid tests were not back yet) put down as idiopathic epilepsy, ie seizures of unknown cause. Nan had an episode just before xmas originally treated as some form of posioning that she had ingested, but she then had a major seizure 4 weeks later, hence the neurologist. He did say some vets/neurologists would give anti seizure drugs right away, but as she had only 2 at the point, he wouldnt put her on anything. Any way long story short, the thyroid tests did come pack positive for auto immune hypo thyroid, shes now been on the thyroid meds 6mths and so far so good no more.

Did you see a specialist and did they or the vets do any diagnostic tests to try to find out if there was any medical cause, or just put your dog on the epilepsy meds? The other "standard" test he did bloods wise was a liver bile test, fast do a base test, then feed a highly fatty meal and several hours later then do another test. She did have a haemotology and biochemistry done, and Im pretty certain she had an ECG as well.


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## Miss chief (Jun 24, 2011)

The vet told me epilepsy cannot be definately diagnosed but she had tests done to eliminate other things. Mischief never saw a specialist or had a scan. She has another issue going on with her eye at the moment which the vet doesn't want to treat at the moment because of the medication she is on, because she only has one eye. She was a rescue dog and we are not sure why she only has one eye.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Miss chief said:


> The vet told me epilepsy cannot be definately diagnosed but she had tests done to eliminate other things. Mischief never saw a specialist or had a scan. She has another issue going on with her eye at the moment which the vet doesn't want to treat at the moment because of the medication she is on, because she only has one eye. She was a rescue dog and we are not sure why she only has one eye.


Thyroid can be linked to occular problems too. Or some dogs can have dry eye, leaving them open to infections and ulceration. Has he ever done a dry eye test? Its relatively simple, they just insert in the eye tiny pieces of paper/card that has a scale marked on it, and after a minute or so read off how much moistures absorbed. Also what breed/cross is she? a lot of breeds
have eye problems that can be hereditary.


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## Miss chief (Jun 24, 2011)

SHE, is an american bulldog, the resue home believes to be purebred, they get a lot in as there is somebody in the area breeding a lot of them with lots of problems, so we have since been told. Can thyroid lead to a dog losing its eye then?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Miss chief said:


> SHE, is an american bulldog, the resue home believes to be purebred, they get a lot in as there is somebody in the area breeding a lot of them with lots of problems, so we have since been told. Can thyroid lead to a dog losing its eye then?


Thyroid can cause problems like dry sore eyes, in fact it can cause lots of symptoms including seizures as I said, not all dogs get all the symptoms.
other classic ones, can be weight gain, even though there is no change to diet or exercise levels, that no matter what you do you cant seem to shift.
Dogs can become loath to exercise and lethargic, you can get skin and coat problems where the skin becomes dry and flaky but the coat can become almost greasy in some and have an odd smell. Low heart rate, ear problems,
Behaviour problems, some become nervous and timid, others can suddenly start to appear aggressive. They can become intolerant to temperature changes. The list goes on and on. It doesnt show on a normal blood test either, you have to have a specific thyroid function test. Some forms of Thyroid disease are hereditary too, thats the one my youngests got auto immune thyroiditis, in fact I heard this week two of her brothers have it too.
it can make an appearance before 3 yrs old.

His eye could have just been an injury, or there could be eye problems in the breed he has inherited.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Miss chief said:


> SHE, is an american bulldog, the resue home believes to be purebred, they get a lot in as there is somebody in the area breeding a lot of them with lots of problems, so we have since been told. Can thyroid lead to a dog losing its eye then?


Just had a quick look at American bulldogs eye problems and apparently there
are eye problems in the breed it does metion eye diseases and also Entropion
The eye lids turn inwards or outwards can never remember if entropian is inwards or outwards, it can cause the eyes to be scratched and irritate the eye or make it prone to infections, obviously if left and not treated or the problem surgically corrected then that I would think could cause so much damage it would be possible to be left with the only alternative to have it removed.

Just had a look at another American bulldog health site and its mentions ectropian and entropian, eye lids turning in and outwards but still cant remember which ones which. Also mentions thyroid problems on a few too.


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## Miss chief (Jun 24, 2011)

Thank you so much for your interest, this whole thing has been driving me barmy. I dont think the problem with Mischiefs eye is entropian. This poor dog has really been through the wringer, she had parvo after we brought her home from the rescue home and since going on meds for epilepsy she has also been lame on her back leg and had to have rest. I have never had a dog with so many problems but we love her to bits anyway. Thanks for mentioning the thyroid, I had a quick look during lunch and found lots of interesting articles Gluten is a pro-inflammatory protein. I am glad I got her food changed to raw I just read this, ''Grains and processed food are a major contributor to thyroid disease, cancer, bone conditions, arthritis and neuro-degerative conditions'' and ''the removal of grains from the diet, especially gluten, is important, as is ensuring adequate vitamin D, which acts intimately with thyroid and other steroid hormone controls, including te sex hormones and vitamin A''. I can't stop wondring if we are somehow exposing our dogs to too many unnatural things, I already decided no more vaccines or Frontline, can you think is there anything else that would help to avoid? I also found this link, which I haven't read properly yet. but it does mention occular disease. Thank you again for mentioning that.

SHOW DOG MAGAZINE~~~~Canine Autoimmune Thyroid Disease can cause seizures in dogs.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Miss chief said:


> Thank you so much for your interest, this whole thing has been driving me barmy. I dont think the problem with Mischiefs eye is entropian. This poor dog has really been through the wringer, she had parvo after we brought her home from the rescue home and since going on meds for epilepsy she has also been lame on her back leg and had to have rest. I have never had a dog with so many problems but we love her to bits anyway. Thanks for mentioning the thyroid, I had a quick look during lunch and found lots of interesting articles Gluten is a pro-inflammatory protein. I am glad I got her food changed to raw I just read this, ''Grains and processed food are a major contributor to thyroid disease, cancer, bone conditions, arthritis and neuro-degerative conditions'' and ''the removal of grains from the diet, especially gluten, is important, as is ensuring adequate vitamin D, which acts intimately with thyroid and other steroid hormone controls, including te sex hormones and vitamin A''. I can't stop wondring if we are somehow exposing our dogs to too many unnatural things, I already decided no more vaccines or Frontline, can you think is there anything else that would help to avoid? I also found this link, which I haven't read properly yet. but it does mention occular disease. Thank you again for mentioning that.
> 
> SHOW DOG MAGAZINE~~~~Canine Autoimmune Thyroid Disease can cause seizures in dogs.


It has got a lot on the canine epilepsy guardian angels website, including a home made hypo allergenic diet, which has been known to help seizures in a lot of cases, the neurologist I saw mentioned hypo allergenic diets too, another thing he mentioned that has been known to help is scullcap and valerian its not an alternative to the anti-seizure drugs an addition thats been known to help think thats mentioned on the website too. Dorwest

Another thing that can help protect the liver again the effects of the anti-epilepsy drugs is milk thistle, you might be able to get that from dorwest too actually. Think thats mentioned on the site. Its really best to click on the table of contents and work your way through the lot, lots of light bulb moments on there as you wade your way through.

Your very welcome, I know how fraustrating and upsetting it is vets miss things too sometimes. So it pays to get clued up and do research yourself.
Ive found things quite a few times, just got one diagnosed with cushings that was missed, until I started wracking my brains because things didnt add up and it was driving me nuts.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Forgot to mention that link you put up is by Dr Jean Dodds, if you google Hypothyroid jean Dodds, and Autoimmune and immune mediated diseases jean Dodds lots of articles papers etc will come up. What Jean Dodds doesnt know about Thyroid, endocrine, immune mediated and auto immune diseases isnt worth knowing. In fact shes probably forgotten more than most vets know on the subject.


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## Miss chief (Jun 24, 2011)

How many times can I thank you, its good to have somebody that has shared such an experience, its makes me feel that I am not alone in taking this laying down, I need to know what I have done wrong for her to be like this. Your dogs are gorgeous, they are a breed I admire, do yours live indoors, do you do sledging with them?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Miss chief said:


> How many times can I thank you, its good to have somebody that has shared such an experience, its makes me feel that I am not alone in taking this laying down, I need to know what I have done wrong for her to be like this. Your dogs are gorgeous, they are a breed I admire, do yours live indoors, do you do sledging with them?


Its likely nothing you have done whatsoever, You can look after them from the day you have them, best food, adequate exercise, best veterinary care you can find, everything you can possibly do/give them and they can still have problems, unfortuanately you cant fight genetics, if they are pre-disposed or affected by an hereditary problem, then there is nothing you can do about it Im afraid. I was devastated when Nanuq had seizures at 2 years old, but the Hypo thyroid type she has is hereditary, I found out this week 2 of her brothers have been tested and they have it too, It can be managed, you just give the synthetic version of the thyroid hormone they cant make, for the rest of their lives and thats all you can do.

Mine all live indoors, apart from one they are all rescues too, as were my previous 3 dogs. I dont take them sledging, just walk my legs off daily

Keep me posted how you are getting on, and if you need anymore help just let me know, I will do all I can to help where possible.


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