# help please! BSH blood type incompatibility



## saz6399 (Mar 4, 2016)

please help my stud is blood type A carrier of B mated with my new queen who is blood group B i only just brought the queen and the previous owner never said she was calling i did not had chance to await test results as they mated hours after i brought her home i have rang around vets and they seem to think i am mad they have no idea what i am talking about is it possible to hand feed? i just remember when my first queen had a litter and i only moved the kittens in a clean bed and she was growling at me like mad has anyone got any help please?


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Yes, you can hand feed for around 48 hours.

There is a chance that some babies will be a b but since you won't know for sure, you'll have to hand feed all


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## saz6399 (Mar 4, 2016)

thanks for reply do you have advice on hand feeding and how to keep kittens warm whats best to buy a heated pet bed?


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## Cashmere Cats (Feb 22, 2016)

I have to say, this is very irresponsible breeding practice, no female and entire stud should come together A before knowing they are a blood match and B you intend to breed from the queen following full health checks etc. 

To be honest, the fact you even have to ask suggests your not really ready to be a breeder. 

Sorry to sound harsh, but you have now massively increased the mortality chanced of the litter, even if you hand feed from birth.


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## Cashmere Cats (Feb 22, 2016)

You could ring round some local breeders to se if anyone has a queen with a small litter or close to weaning. 

My girl has supported kittens from another litter in the past very successfully.


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## Cashmere Cats (Feb 22, 2016)

Here is some really useful info, please ask if you need help....

http://icatcare.org/advice/hand-rearing-kittens


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## saz6399 (Mar 4, 2016)

i brought the new queen aged 18 months the breeder i got her from never said she was calling i did intend to do health checks as i requested swabs from langfords that day i let her down in the house expected she was very shy she was hid under the unit in my living room and i went to the kitchen to get her some treats to put for her i walked back in and caught my boy mating with her i kept them separate since the incident in case she was not caught


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## saz6399 (Mar 4, 2016)

thanks for the link my main concern is how to keep them warm and i really do not want to take her kittens away as will cause distress to my queen i have also spoke to my vet who told me to come in for the milk and advice on feeding i read on another forum of a similar problem and they said they covered the queens teats so they did not have to remove the kittens fully from mum they still snuggled up and they hand fed for first day or two.


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## saz6399 (Mar 4, 2016)

and i am fairly new to breeding been 3 yrs now i do not think i am irresponsible i know a few breeders who never blood type or health check they just but two cats together like the breeder i brought my new queen off i asked her the blood type and she said she did not know i do and have done all checks with my other queens and stud however this was an unfortunate accident and i have been non stop searching online what i can do i to prevent a tragic loss


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Blood type isn't an issue in my breed, but I know several Birman breeders who put a baby onesie on their girl to prevent them feeding but still allow cuddling and grooming.


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## saz6399 (Mar 4, 2016)

thanks that is what i am going to do it will make it a lot easier know i wont have to take the kittens away from her.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Why on earth did you let a new, untested cat free in your house to mix with your other cats? She could have been carrying or incubating anything!


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## Cashmere Cats (Feb 22, 2016)

carly87 said:


> Why on earth did you let a new, untested cat free in your house to mix with your other cats? She could have been carrying or incubating anything!


Are you not going to add anything supportive or useful Carly?

Seems this manner of forum post is quite typical for you, to be honest, I wouldn't bother wearing out your keyboard for this type of response, it's not helpful to anyone.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Cashmere Cats said:


> Are you not going to add anything supportive or useful Carly?
> 
> Seems this manner of forum post is quite typical for you, to be honest, I wouldn't bother wearing out your keyboard for this type of response, it's not helpful to anyone.


I'm fairly new here, but I have seen a good amount of posts from Carly87 which have been supportive and useful.

I see she has ruffled you feathers on another thread though, but no reason to lash out here.


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## Cashmere Cats (Feb 22, 2016)

MilleD said:


> I'm fairly new here, but I have seen a good amount of posts from Carly87 which have been supportive and useful.
> 
> I see she has ruffled you feathers on another thread though, but no reason to lash out here.


She has not "ruffled my feathers" I just don't agree with such harsh statements that are then not supported by advice or guidance.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Cashmere Cats said:


> She has not "ruffled my feathers" I just don't agree with such harsh statements that are then not supported by advice or guidance.


Fair enough, but both you and her have had a bit of a dig at the OP of this thread so you are both singing from the same hymn sheet here


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## Cashmere Cats (Feb 22, 2016)

MilleD said:


> Fair enough, but both you and her have had a bit of a dig at the OP of this thread so you are both singing from the same hymn sheet here


Agreed, we are  and I think we both have the same passion for getting things right, ultimately what's best for the cats/kittens.


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

I brought a body stocking for my girl so the kittens wouldn't feed from mum, but I was lucky enough to have another queen who had also just had a litter and she was able to feed the kittens for me for the first 18 hours, then I took mums body stocking off so she could take over feeding. good luck, if I was you I would read up on hand feeding them until its safe for them to go back with mum.


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## saz6399 (Mar 4, 2016)

carly87 said:


> Why on earth did you let a new, untested cat free in your house to mix with your other cats? She could have been carrying or incubating anything!


she was previously indoor cat never been outside up to date with jabs and only lived with one other cat who was also indoor and fully vaccinated and both upto date with worming and free of fleas the lady informed me of this as we spoke for quite a while about the cats and her history and i also have her vaccination records


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Cats can come into call very quickly. Keeping her separate except when supervised seems the only sensible way to prevent 'oops' liters with entire cats of the opposite sex.


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## saz6399 (Mar 4, 2016)

thanks for replies dont mind people digging at me i know i made a mistake i didnt expect her to be in heat also every queen i have had never cycle until the late spring never in early feb what is the time span to hand feed? i have read 16 18 24 and 48 hours colliemerles you with held mums colostrum for 18 hours with no problems?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

16 hours according to Diane Addie, 24 according to iCatCare.


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

hi, I took the kittens away for feeding and put with another mum, and returned them to mum about 18 hours later , I was lucky that I had another girl that could feed them as she had kittens herself a day or two before. If she hadn't had kittens I would of had to hand feed them. it worked out ok for me.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I've also heard different timeframes recommended straight from the mouths of different experts, all of whom work in the area of feline reproduction.

The aim is to keep the Type A kittens away from Type B mum's milk until the kittens' digestive tracts can no longer absorb antibodies. This event is known as 'gut closure', and usually occurs between 12 and 24 hours after birth. After that, they can safely consume the milk of the Type B mother.

Susan Little says the kittens should be prevented from feeding for 12-18 hours after birth. Diane Addie suggests 16 hours. Joni Freshman actually thinks more along the lines of 48 hours, admitting that 18 hours is probably sufficient but that she prefers to play it safe.

It's a difficult call: if the kittens end up consuming any milk from the type B queen before gut closure is complete, their mortality is extremely high. From that perspective, I usually err on the side of caution and recommend 24 hours apart - but that's by no means the 'correct' answer.

As for what to do with the kittens, the textbook option is to exchange litters with a type A queen who has given birth around 24 hours beforehand. I'd be interested to know how many breeders do this, and how many just foster temporarily or hand feed the kittens.

Clothing the queen so that the kittens can't nurse before gut closure is an option already highlighted above, but you must be absolutely certain that a persistent kitten can't wiggle its way through to her: once they nurse, they're in trouble.

You can hand feed the kittens while you await gut closure, but be aware they will have a failure of passive transfer (ie they will receive no protective antibodies from their mother). This can potentially put them at increased risk of infection, although in practice it seems that most kittens do pretty well and suffer few problems.

Some people will administer pre-prepared serum from a type A cat to the kittens, by mouth or injection, but you obviously need to make sure the chosen donor is vaccinated, FIV and FeLV negative and free from disease.

Most of all, you'll need to ensure that the birth is witnessed - you can't miss it, as you will need to be on hand to remove the kittens before they get a chance to nurse.


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## saz6399 (Mar 4, 2016)

thanks i have looked into antibody serum but seems its only vets in the states that carry out this procedure i think early vaccination is a possibility around 6 weeks old and i will be extra cautious with hygiene.


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## Alaskacat (Aug 2, 2010)

I have raised a litter born from a group B Mum and a group A Dad. I kept them separate in a cat carrier next to the queen any time I couldn't watch them and she wore a homemade jacket when they were with her - only when I was sat within reach. I bottle fed for the first 19 hours from the last kitten being born. The kittens then were returned to Mum who then fed them, but I did have to supplement the odd feed for the next day or so as she had 6 kits and her milk took a while to come through properly. 
The hardest part was ensuring that I did not miss the birth and I wouldn't repeat the experience for that reason. I could not leave her from the day the kits were viable, not even for the school run and had to sleep shifts with my husband so that the kits were not born while we were both asleep. It was exhausting and it would have meant a lot of time off work if I had been working. Every time she left the room I had to follow as I couldn't risk a kitten feeding soon after birth. I would say I trust my instinct and know when my girls are starting labour, but when you could lose the entire litter due to a lack of concentration it does stress you a little more. 
Be prepared to feed the kits for the first day or so, but more importantly clear your diary for a fortnight around the birth. My queen was a first time mum and did need help to feed when she was allowed to, luckily she adored the kits from the word go, but I was worried that she would reject them. Best of luck to you, I hope all goes well.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

saz6399 said:


> thanks i have looked into antibody serum but seems its only vets in the states that carry out this procedure i think early vaccination is a possibility around 6 weeks old and i will be extra cautious with hygiene.


Anyone can do it if they have a suitable donor and a vet able/willing to take the blood and inject it into the kittens. I've never done it personally but know plenty who have.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Saz, not addressing the topic directly, but just to pick up on one other bit, as your original question has been covered.

When I said the cat could be carrying anything, I didn't mean that she wasn't vaccinated. As you haven't lived in the other breeder's house, and didn't get swabs done, the cat could have been carrying herpes, calici, chlamydia, corona, giardia, just to name the very tip of the iceberg. Conscientious breeders will quarantine a newcomer cat for at least 2 weeks before allowing it into general population to ensure that there are no sniffles, sneezes, runny bums, eye infections, anything like that. Otherwise, you just don't know what you're letting loose in the cattery! Would be something to implement with any future cats coming along.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Two weeks isolation would not necessarily tell you anything about the presence of herpes, calici, chlamydia or coronavirus and even when mixed with the new group of cats these things may not be immediately apparent. (I don't know much about giardia other than it is shed intermittently. Can cats be asymptomatic?)


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Just given as examples of things that COULD be passed without esting, QOTN. Obviously different quarantine periods will be indicated depending on different concerns, but 2 weeks would allow most of this to be tested for, which was the main brunt of my reasoning. Things like Calici do normally show within 14 days, but I do know of some cases where it has incubated up to 21, so again, point taken.

So that the OP doesn't miss the main point of the post, no unknown, i.e, cat not from your own household, should be allowed to mix directly or indirectly with your breeding cats until it has either been quarantined long enough for incubation to be done, or has been tested clear of diseases that you don't want ot bring in.

QOTN, yep, I have known of cats who showed levels of Giardia without ever having symptoms.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Cats can be carriers of herpes and even the latest tests will not necessarily identify the virus when it is dormant. Calici carriers may be identified but low level shedders do not always show on a swab test. I know cats can be carriers of chlamydia and I am not sure how they can be identified if they have no active disease. Most people discover it when their kittens have the bacterium when adults have been symptom free. I know somebody who discovered it with antibody testing but that only shows the cat has been exposed. I am not sure if it identifies a current carrier. Depending on the titre result of a coronavirus test it should be possible to tell if a cat has coronavirus although really it is better to know if a titre is going down or up so more than one test would be advisable but a fortnight is quite a short time to receive all the results of some of these other tests.

I was not suggesting the fortnight was unnecessary, rather that in itself it would probably be of limited benefit.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Granted, but definitely better than nothing. My own policy is to quarantine as long as it takes me to be happy with everything.

I think Chlammydia can be picked up if a-symptomatic. One of mine brought it back from stud with them a few years ago and spread it to some of my others. Luckily, I test a few times a year anyway just to make sure I haven't picked up any nasties from shows etc, so caught it before there were kittens involved (unsuccessful mating), but none of them showed any symptoms at all.


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## saz6399 (Mar 4, 2016)

hi my cat have birth last week for the last few days of her pregnancy she slept in her basket on my bed i set my alarm every hour or so through out the night to check on her i awoke at 3am to squeaking she had birthed 3 kitten sadly two were dead one was alive thats who woke me up she then had the last two kittens she had 5 in total the 3 surviving kittens done very well i fed them every 1 to 2 hours and mum wore a body sock so she snuggled and bonded and she fed kittens herself after the 24 hrs passed i am absolutely beating myself up about the kittens that i found dead one she had fully cleaned and removed placenta was lifeless cold not breathing the other was the same but still in its sack i rubbed the little one down and dangled it upside down and there was no life in him at all they could have bin dead for over 40 mins or so im so upset i feel its my fault i have know idea if they were stillborn or died shortly after birth she has had one litter with previous owner last year and had 5 kittens and all was well i cant stop beating myself up about it.


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

sorry to hear you lost two saz6399, its awful and you keep asking yourself "what if " , but its happened now and you cant keep beating yourself up about it. Move on and concentrate on the 3 that are alive and well. I lost kittens last year, and kept getting upset and thinking I should of done this or that. You don't know if the outcome would of been any different if you had been wake. Once mum has settled with them we would love to see a picture of her with them.


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