# Confused



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

I have just found a huge pile of poo beind the lounge door on the laminate flooring. I can only assume it is Elsworth as none of the other two have ever pooed in the house. 

I haven't added pumpkin to his food for a couple of days but he has been using the litter trays for poo. 

I really don't think the pumpkin has a link as it has been normal to have a good period in between the bad periods.

I really don't know what to do, we are planning a baby next year so we need to get this sorted before said baby becomes a toddler and starts walking as I can not guarantee I will find it before they do. 

I am doing everything in my power to keep him happy but I can't help but wonder if I am causing the issue because he is an indoor cat with no friend other than me and hubs who can't spend 24 hours a day with him. I honestly thought the girls would accept him properly given time but 8 months down the line he gets growled at for being too close or he persistently chases Elise despite her warnings. The thought of giving him up is heart breaking, he is such a special little cat who loves his humans. Likewise the thought of allowing him true freedom fills me with dread at the thought of him being exposed to traffic etc especially as he seems less streetwise than the girls. 

I think cat proofing the garden needs to be done asap but not sure what to do if the neighbours say no we can't attach stuff to the fence. An enclosure wouldn't really give him the space to run and chase. 

Another cat is not an option at all.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

I have attached another pic of the poo (sorry!) It isn't particularly hard or dry, he has been showing no signs of discomfort over the last couple of days, when I got home tonight we had a good play with the Flying Frenzy and he was full of beans.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

That is a heck of a lot of poo for one small cat Oggers Are you sure a dog didn't sneak and poo in your house when the door was open?

If it genuinely is only Elsworth's poo then I suggest that to produce such an unnaturally large bowel movement in one sitting it must mean he has not been evacuating his bowel completely every time he has defecated recently, perhaps because the pumpkin was constipating him, and now he has had a jolly good clear out.  If so that's good news! 

I think putting up a run off the house is a great idea. I have done it for my 2 girls (now aged 18 mths) and they love it! I have 2 large outdoor cat trees in it, as well as places to perch. Part of the run is under cover (the verandah) and the rest is on the lawn. It has made a big difference to their lives, and I am sure it would do wonders for Elsworth too, if he could watch the birds and the squirrels and smell the fresh air. You could give him an outdoor litter tray, which he may prefer. (ZP sells them)

I agree with you, I wouldn't let him roam free. Perhaps put a run up for the time being until you have got it agreed with the neighbours to put security fence round your garden. A run is not that expensive to make, using chicken wire and a wooden frame. 

I definitely wouldn't even contemplate for a second getting another cat whilst you have a cat with toileting issues. It would be asking for trouble IMO.


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## Ely01 (May 14, 2014)

It's massive! It must have been a...relief.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

I agree that is a huge poop for a cat. How old is he? What's his diet? My concern is megacolon.

Megacolon results from chronic constipation. The stool sitting in the colon stretches it out of shape and it becomes very large, harboring even more poop.

A constipated cat may still poop, but he may not get it all out. It just sits in there stretching the colon and causing discomfort.

Diet is very important, but I think a trip to the vet and some x rays may be in order..


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> That is a heck of a lot of poo for one small cat Oggers Are you sure a dog didn't sneak and poo in your house when the door was open?
> 
> If it genuinely is only Elsworth's poo then I suggest that to produce such an unnaturally large bowel movement in one sitting it must mean he has not been evacuating his bowel completely every time he has defecated recently, perhaps because the pumpkin was constipating him, and now he has had a jolly good clear out.  If so that's good news!
> 
> ...


I wondered if it was 2 lots of poo not one. I didn't notice it for ages, I thought I could smell poo when I walked in but I checked the usual spots and thought it was my imagination.

Will have a chat with the neighbours on Sunday and let them know. An enclosure is ok short term but when we have a child I want to have the whole garden free without having to go in and out of an enclosure.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

lorilu said:


> I agree that is a huge poop for a cat. How old is he? What's his diet? My concern is megacolon.
> 
> Megacolon results from chronic constipation. The stool sitting in the colon stretches it out of shape and it becomes very large, harboring even more poop.
> 
> ...


He only eats wet food from ZP and Happy Kitty Company. He occasionally has dry but not very much and not even once a month. He will be a year in January.

I asked the vet about constipation when I took him to ask about the pooing in the house but they didn't seem to think he was, they told me his problem was behavioural so I got a behaviourist who suggested it was either the lack of trays (I had 3 but added another and I now currently have 6 which hasn't made a deference) She also said it could be linked to stress but feeding off the others as Elise was struggling with the house move but since November she is back to her old self.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

I'd get an x ray to start. He is young for megacolon but that much poop isn't normal. And I can't imagine a cat pooping on top of existing poop, though I suppose anything is possible.

When a cat has such large stool as that, if it's not megacolon, then the next thought is he isn't digesting his food. The food is going straight to waste, he isn't absorbing nutrients. Considering the texture of it, I do think something like that needs to be considered, also.

Vets seem to turn to that "behavior" diagnosis when ever they don't know what they are dealing with.

I'd start with x rays of the abdomen, and have a stool culture done to check for parasites. Culture, not fecal float. Something isn't right about his insides.

It seems pooping causes him discomfort so he avoids the litter box. 

One more thing though, do you think any of the others are attacking him when he is in the litter box?

Even so, that stool is not normal, and a vet somewhere should realize that and investigate it.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Max was on the verge of megacolon and is now on medication (cisapride) to keep things moving along.

His symptoms were very hard faeces, lumps in odd places round the house and scooting - the latter was because he was failing to completely evacuate his bowls. He couldn't produce a pile like that in the photo.

He was investigated at the Edinburgh vet school and that included an ultrasound (he had a massive shave for that!) to check there was no sign of a tumour anywhere along his large colon, an X-ray to check he didn't have any signs of spinal problems, (yet another) an enema, bloods, urinalysis, can't remember if there was anything else. Thankfully he was a model patient!

At first he was on a lot of cisapride and lactulose, and I was having to put psylium husks in his food. I've been able to gradually reduce the doses and now he's just on the cisapride.

I think I'd be taking that photo to the vets...


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

I'm glad Max isn't on the psyliium any more. I lived with a megacolon cat for 10 years (she was diagnosed when she was 7). The vet I was using originally kept prescribing larger and larger doses of psyllium until the poor cat's bowel movements were larger than she was. Psyllium is absolutely the wrong thing to use for a cat with suspected megacolon because it draws water (all the water in the body) to the colon, creating huge stools, making them even more difficult to pass, even with lactulose (another product I hate) and cisapride.

Cats with megacolon need a very low fiber diet. It is not lack of fiber that is theri problem it is lack of motility and elasticity in the bowel and colon.

Eventually I got a clue and changed vets, and that was when her megacolon was finally diagnosed properly and she was put on cisapride and for a short time, lactulose. Because she was CKD by then the lactulose caused her blood calcium levels to shoot through the roof, so I had to take her off that (gladly)

(off topic a bit, but back then there was almost no knowledge about how lactulose causes CKD cats to develop dangerously high blood Ca levels, but it is more well known now)

Anyway, Elsworth does seem young for megacolon, which is why I started wondering about parasites, or some other digestive or nutrient absorption problem.

I want to add here that, if parasites and other GI diseases are ruled out, that a probiotic and/or digestive enzymes may be very helpful. I suppose some of you think I sound like a broken record, but I sure wish I'd known about probiotics back in the days with my megacolon girl. They can be so incredibly helpful for cats not digesting food properly. I have a friend who rescued a kitten. She learned the lessons of what a poor (dry) diet can do with her first cat so she followed my advice about canned food only, but her kitten was having very smelly large stools even on the low carb low fiber canned diet. I sent her a bottle of the probiotic I use for my cats and recommended a half capsule every other day, increasing to half capsule daily if needed. Problem solved.  The kitten, for whatever reason (not parasites, the vet had already wormed her to within an inch of her life) was just not digesting her food.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

lorilu said:


> I'd get an x ray to start. He is young for megacolon but that much poop isn't normal. And I can't imagine a cat pooping on top of existing poop, though I suppose anything is possible.
> 
> It isnt the first time we have had such a pile, I had always assumed he has "regone" on the existing pile.
> 
> ...


I will take him to the vets in the New Year and discuss things further.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

This is his typical everyday kind of poo.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

That is a lot of poop for a canned fed cat. Unless the canned food is all grains, which I doubt, (I think you feed good foods). 

A normal canned fed stool should be three or four pieces an inch long or smaller per piece, firm but not hard and dry, with visible fur when broken open.

That is too much poop, too big, too wet looking. It indicates improper digestion, mal-absorption of nutrients. In my opinion. I am not a vet but I've been studying cat poop for many years. 

Which is why, if parasites are ruled out I suggested probiotics or digestive enzymes, or both. (it was in an edit to my post, in case you missed it)


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Oggers, I agree with lorilu, even in the second photo you've shown us, that is a still a lot of poop for a cat on a low grain/no grain wet food diet. To me too it looks too bulky and wet, though I guess that could be the result of all the pumpkin you were adding (if that photo was taken at the time he was still having the pumpkin i.e.). 

I have never heard of a cat defecating on top of an existing pile of poo, and think it highly unlikely, as a cat's instinct is to find a fresh place each time they want to toilet. Even an incontinent cat confined to a cage can manage to find a different spot in the cage to toilet each time, if they are determined not to use the litter tray. This is even more likely to be the case when there is a whole house from which to choose somewhere to toilet!

Personally I think the problem with adding pumpkin is it makes the stool bulky, which is an unnatural state of affairs for a cat, and as a result it is more difficult to pass (see lorilu's comments about mega colon etc). 

I think lorilu is right, you need to ask the vet to investigate further.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Some of his poo can be smaller and dryer, other times its bigger and wetter but there doesn't seem to be a food link. I've posted this picture before but that is what his poo mostly looks like (hard to tell in the litter though) 

Will make a vets appointment for after Christmas when I have a day off. Would it help if I took a sample with me?

All food is grain free apart from the last lot of dry as I don't think the Smilla is. However he hasn't had even a piece in the last week so it can't be that.


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## Jannor (Oct 26, 2013)

Hi Oggers

That is a lot of poo! I have seen Sykes do a lot in one go, but its only occasionally when she's eaten too much. She has on occasion managed to steal 3 dinners when its something she particularly likes and I've not supervised in time.

Going back to the run I do think its a brilliant idea, for the reasons Chillminx stated. It doesn't have to be massive, mine get tired out from watching wildlife, the neighbours, visiting cats, etc. they don't need to be running around in it.

Mine isn't built onto the house, it just means I have to carry them to the top corner of the garden to it.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

I don't think taking a one-off sample of his poo with you to the vet is really going to help.

But if you want a poo sample for testing for parasites and a culture done to look for infections, it needs to be a 3 day pooled sample. It doesn't have to be 3 consecutive days. You must keep the samples in a cool place, but not in the fridge. Also take in the samples by a Wednesday at latest to make sure it reaches the lab before a weekend.

Unless you have actually had Elsworth on an methodical elimination diet (which, if I recall correctly, you have not?) it is impossible to say whether his bowel problems are related to his diet. Just changing his diet and excluding certain foods here or there, is too hit and miss, and doesn't given a proper scientific result.

You'd need to have him on a novel protein for 6 weeks, that and nothing else except water to drink. Novel proteins are: venison, horse, reindeer, kangaroo, ostrich, buffalo. Vet Concept in Germany sells some of these canned, and they are guaranteed to be single proteins, (as well as being grain free).

Adult Katze Nassnahrung Shop - Vet-Concept GmbH & Co KG

If there is improvement after 6 weeks, then you can reintroduce other foods, but they must be single protein foods, otherwise you won't be able to identify which protein is to blame if there is a reaction.

I think the primary cause might well be dietary, but it has also become a behavioural issue too as he has found ways to deal with his bowel discomfort.

Intermittent intestinal discomfort is quite typical of food intolerances, more so than of allergies. Food intolerances are harder to identify than allergies for this reason. But I have done so with a number of my cats, past and present, using the elimination diet/novel protein diet.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Jannor said:


> Hi Oggers
> 
> That is a lot of poo! I have seen Sykes do a lot in one go, but its only occasionally when she's eaten too much. She has on occasion managed to steal 3 dinners when its something she particularly likes and I've not supervised in time.
> 
> ...


If I could get one for super cheap then I can do it but otherwise I can't afford to spend a lot of money on one and then spend money on cat proofing which is really the long term plan as a run just wouldn't work in 4 years plus.

I know some of you have got materials from Free cycle etc but nothing comes up for my area. Where else can I get cheap 6ft lengths of wood?


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> I don't think taking a one-off sample of his poo with you to the vet is really going to help.
> 
> But if you want a poo sample for testing for parasites and a culture done to look for infections, it needs to be a 3 day pooled sample. It doesn't have to be 3 consecutive days. You must keep the samples in a cool place, but not in the fridge. Also take in the samples by a Wednesday at latest to make sure it reaches the lab before a weekend.
> 
> ...


Ok, I will take him to the vet to see what they say and then go with the elimination diet. As we haven't gone longer than 2 weeks without a poo somewhere then having him on one food for 6 weeks should easily identify a problem if there is one.

Am I right in thinking Ropocat is also single protein?


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Yes, some of the Ropocat recipes are single protein: the Rabbit, the Chicken, the Lamb and the Venison. The only one that's a novel protein is the Venison, assuming you have never fed him venison.

If you _have_ ever fed him venison then you'd need to choose another novel protein, such as one of the Vet Concept recipes.

But the Ropocat single proteins will be ideal for when you come to reintroduce foods after the 6 weeks.

I wouldn't expect instant improvement with the elimination diet, as some of his toiletting is, I am sure, adaptive behaviour, which will take time to change once his bowel is more comfortable. What might indicate a dietary problem would be if his stools become more normal-looking whilst he is on the elimination diet, e.g. smaller, less bulky, and less wet looking.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Oh my, that is a lot of poop! 

Interestingly, I gave Mia Smilla yesterday for the 1st time (think we tried a different variety a couple of years ago but def not this one) and the output in her tray today is huge compared to normal! 


I was going to ask if you've ever kept a food diary as, if it's intermittent, then it may well be down to an intolerance to one or more ingredients in his food

I def recommend the elimination diet - it can be a long frustrating process, but worth it if can get to the 'bottom' of things

I did one with my dog (who sadly has many intolerances) and it took a good 6-9 months to establish the foods she can have but now we've got there her tum is pretty much fine (unless the little b00ger eats something she shouldn't when we're out ).

We've gone from having one wet to mix with her kibble (which stays the same all the time) to now having a good 1/2 dozen good quality wets she's able to have


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Lilylass said:


> Oh my, that is a lot of poop!
> 
> Interestingly, I gave Mia Smilla yesterday for the 1st time (think we tried a different variety a couple of years ago but def not this one) and the output in her tray today is huge compared to normal!
> 
> ...


I did briefly feeding the same foods which led me to the conclusion that he poos in the litter tray or outside it no matter what he is fed. I didn't however make a note of anything else so I can't now say for sure.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> Yes, some of the Ropocat recipes are single protein: the Rabbit, the Chicken, the Lamb and the Venison. The only one that's a novel protein is the Venison, assuming you have never fed him venison.
> 
> If you _have_ ever fed him venison then you'd need to choose another novel protein, such as one of the Vet Concept recipes.
> 
> ...


Mostly they are smaller and dryer which is where the pumpkin came in as small round poos are a sign of constipation. I wonder if he is suffering from constipation but then something happens (a food) to help him get rid of it all...

Definitely need to ask the vet and insist that they check him properly.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

A "normal" poo in its rightful place this morning.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

oggers86 said:


> A "normal" poo in its rightful place this morning.


Perhaps when he does a normal poo that is when he does it in the litter tray?

In answer to your question "What exactly is classed as a novel protein? Why do you pick venison over chicken? Is it something to do with it not being in any foods?" A *novel* protein in this sense means a protein that is _new_ to your cat, in other words he has never ever eaten it before. That is why chicken is not a novel protein as there is chicken in lots of cat foods.

Venison may be a novel protein for many cats, but not for others, as it is an ingredient of some cat foods, and also some people feed it raw to their cat.

It is safer IMO to choose a different novel protein to venison, e.g. the recipes that Vet Concept offers, such as horse, reindeer, kangaroo, ostrich.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

So this morning we have a small bit of poo in the litter tray and some outside of it. Hubs didn't scoop yesterday but as he does this when the trays are scooped it doesn't really mean anything.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Those 2 lots of poo put together are still a lot for one cat to evacuate at one go, a cat who is on a grain free diet. Are you still giving him the pumpkin? But it does look a more healthy consistency, not as wet as before. 

Are you 100% certain it is Elsworth who did both those poos? If so, then as mentioned before it suggests incomplete evacuation, which can be caused by poor bowel motility. 

Does he have access to 2 trays at night, in different spots in the house, so if he needs to poo twice he has a clean tray each time? 

It suggests to me that he passed the first lot of poo in the tray, felt some discomfort, and so when he felt the urge to poo again, he chose to avoid his tray because he associated the tray with discomfort. 

I really do think it is looking more and more that his problem is a physical one (intermittent discomfort when he poos) making him wary of the trays sometimes. 

Can you remind me what food you're giving him at present?


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> Those 2 lots of poo put together are still a lot for one cat to evacuate at one go, a cat who is on a grain free diet. Are you still giving him the pumpkin? But it does look a more healthy consistency, not as wet as before.
> 
> Are you 100% certain it is Elsworth who did both those poos? If so, then as mentioned before it suggests incomplete evacuation, which can be caused by poor bowel motility.
> 
> ...


He has free access to 7 trays, 4 of which are clay, 1 is wood based, one is paper pellets and the other hamster bedding which is basically just shredded paper. With 4 clay trays if we scoop daily there will always be a clean tray but I have seen him use the same one for pooing twice. Elsa doesn't poo in the trays, she seems to just want to wee in them. Elise mostly wees in them but does a poo in them regularly but not daily.

Elsworth has always had smaller rounder poos than the others so it is easy to tell them apart.

Scooping everyday or more would be preferable but as I am no longer doing it I leave it to hubs and he forgets.

I am going to have to get rid of the bedroom trays soon though so we will be back down to 3 or 4.

I can't be 100% certain who it is but before we moved it was definitely always him as he was shut away from the others but since the new flap in the new house he has free access 24/7. I am assuming it is him purely because it always has been and he definitely did a poo in our bedroom when we were in it.

Food wise he gets:
Animonda Carny Poultry flavours 
Bozita Chicken and Salmon Flavour 
Smilla Poultry, Lamb and Fish 
Macs all flavours but the one with rice 
Ropocat all flavours
Granatapet all flavours 
Omnomnom both flavours

I haven't given him pumpkin in a week or so now.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

This morning more poo in the same place, lots of it and some not very formed. The last couple of days he has had Bozita and Animonda Carny, I wonder if it is the Bozita. 

Should I try the elimination diet before the vets or the vets before the diet?


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Tbh, if I were you I would start the elimination diet a.s.a.p. I see no advantage in postponing it until after he's seen the vet.

Bozita and Animonda Carny are known for causing loose stools in some cats, it is probably because they contain a high percentage of offal. None of my cats can eat either of those foods because it gives them loose stools.

As much of the pooing away from the tray seems to happen at night I think it would be better to restrict him to one room at night, with 2 trays, each of them as far away from each other as possible, so to Elsworth it will seem like two separate places to toilet.

By restricting him to one room, you will also be able to tell for certain that it is definitely him who is the poo culprit, and not one of the girls.

I have found when you have a cat with these kind of toiletting issues it is very important to keep the trays clean all the time, so scooping the poop as soon as possible after it has been deposited in the tray is essential. Particularly when you have a cat who doesn't bury its deposits.

Clearing litter trays promptly is also a good habit to establish if you are planning to have toddlers around in the near future. Young kids do not care what they put their hands into!

If it is not practical for you or hubby to clear litter trays promptly, then it would be better for Elsworth to have a couple of litter boxes which empty automatically. (though they will need emptying every 30 days). I know of people who are out all day who have these for their cats and swear by them.

ScoopFree Ultra Automatic Litter Box SX4 on Sale | Free UK Delivery | PetPlanet.co.uk

PetSafe ScoopFree Original Self-Cleaning Litter Box: Amazon.co.uk: Pet Supplies


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

I would certainly start by removing the Bozita, Smilla & Animonda Carny from his diet for a good few weeks - even Mia (who generally has a cast iron tummy) can't have those more than one meal in a row without problems.

If you can start a proper elimination diet at the same time, all the better 

I also agree with CM re the trays - if hubby is cleaning them, it is absolutely vital that he does this at least once a day at an absolute minimum and preferably more often. Confining Elsworth to one room with at least 2 trays is also def worth a try and, if nothing else, you will at least know if he is the culprit or not.

If you're going to have to remove trays from your bedroom, then you really need to try to find somewhere else for them to go instead - if he's having (or one of the others), with that many trays available - it will almost certainly get worse if the number of available trays is reduced


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

I only have room for 5 trays and they would be spread about. A 6th tray could be added but it will be a while before that is possible. I can put 2 in the garden though once we sort it. Buying one of those fancy trays isn't an option with buying the food as well as we really need to start saving as much as we can. 

If necessary I can do the scooping once but I will try get him to up it to twice a day as I would much prefer not to have to do it (whole other story which I don't want to go into just yet) 

Will sort out the food order after Boxing Day, debating what flavour to give him. Any idea which seems to be the favourite amongst cats?


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

It is definitely Elsworth, found him as he had just finished doing another huge poo in the office. Trays were all scooped at midnight so by the time we got up and had showers etc we wouldn't have scooped between the time we scooped last night and he did the poo this morning. 

Will be ordering the food on Sunday, will put him on kangaroo for 6 weeks then see what happens.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

*sigh* well at least you now know 100% it's him so it's a start - good luck with the Kangaroo, I'm sure a few on the IDB thread have had success with novel / single proteins

It must be something to do with associating the tray with being uncomfortable / pain / smell etc when he goes  


Fingers crossed .....


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Lilylass said:


> *sigh* well at least you now know 100% it's him so it's a start - good luck with the Kangaroo, I'm sure a few on the IDB thread have had success with novel / single proteins
> 
> It must be something to do with associating the tray with being uncomfortable / pain / smell etc when he goes
> 
> Fingers crossed .....


I am beginning to wonder now if it has been medical all along as nothing links to a behavioural problem, there is just no consistency and no pattern apart from the fact he does it on average once a week, sometimes more.

If I don't get any joy with the kangaroo I think I will take him to the vets and get them to run a whole load of tests. Will Pet Plan be likely to pay out for this if it costs more than one hundred pounds?


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

oggers86 said:


> > Will Pet Plan be likely to pay out for this if it costs more than one hundred pounds?
> 
> 
> From previous experience it may be a question of you convincing your vet it is a medical problem and not a behavioural one. Then the vet will complete the details on the insurance claim form stating the cause as medical.
> ...


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> oggers86 said:
> 
> 
> > From previous experience it may be a question of you convincing your vet it is a medical problem and not a behavioural one. Then the vet will complete the details on the insurance claim form stating the cause as medical.
> ...


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

oggers86 said:


> So I feed the kangaroo for 6 weeks and I have 3 results:
> 
> 1. His poo is still large either in or out of the tray. What next? Another novel protein, ostrich or something before getting the vet to do tests or take him as soon as the kangaroo is finished? Personally I'd try a 2nd novel protein first - this is the really hard bit. You're basically picking one but have no idea if he will be intolerant to that or not. So, if after 6 weeks, there's still problems, it may be the kangaroo that's the issue therefore (imho) worth trying a new novel protein.
> 
> ...


HTH - good luck & will be interested to know how it goes


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

Just caught up with this - good luck!

As a side point re. litter trays, do you have a clumping litter? Just if so, one trick I do in regards to emptying the litter trays is that once I've done them, I use the scoop to rake the surface flat and even again. Then I know that if it's looking all lumpy and uneven, that there's something in there for me to scoop out. And probably in a bit of the tray that has a hill, rather than a valley. But if it still looks flat and neat, there's no need for me to poke it at all. That method might help your OH a bit? It makes cleaning trays much quicker as you know which trays and where in the trays to target, rather than having to check all of each tray every time. And it only takes a quick passing glance to tell in the first place too.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Torin said:


> Just caught up with this - good luck!
> 
> As a side point re. litter trays, do you have a clumping litter? Just if so, one trick I do in regards to emptying the litter trays is that once I've done them, I use the scoop to rake the surface flat and even again. Then I know that if it's looking all lumpy and uneven, that there's something in there for me to scoop out. And probably in a bit of the tray that has a hill, rather than a valley. But if it still looks flat and neat, there's no need for me to poke it at all. That method might help your OH a bit? It makes cleaning trays much quicker as you know which trays and where in the trays to target, rather than having to check all of each tray every time. And it only takes a quick passing glance to tell in the first place too.


Good point! 
I've always done this - thought it might be a touch of OCD :lol:


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Does this still seem like a lot of poo? Not sure how long it has been there, wasn't there at 6am when I got up for work but it could have been there since. 

Tray in the office is completely clean so definitely not a lack of clean trays. 

Starting tomorrow morning we are off the Zooplus foods, will give that 2 weeks and then start my kangaroo, should have arrived by then if I order tomorrow.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

That looks like a more normal amount for an adult cat. I would expect that quantity once every 24 hours from my adult boys, no more frequently than that. The girls (18 mths old) pass less than that. 

Does he keep using the same spots on the floor to poo, and if so what happens if you put trays in the exact spots, does he go somewhere else?


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> That looks like a more normal amount for an adult cat. I would expect that quantity once every 24 hours from my adult boys, no more frequently than that. The girls (18 mths old) pass less than that.
> 
> Does he keep using the same spots on the floor to poo, and if so what happens if you put trays in the exact spots, does he go somewhere else?


Yes he does. He used to go on the spare bed so I stripped it which stopped him going there. Since then he has been going in various places until recently. At first we had a pattern of him going on the mid landing next to the tray despite Simple Solution dosings. I put a small tray on that spot which broke that habit so he started in the office next to the wardrobe door with the tray a few feet away. Dosed it again with SS then placed the tray on the spot so he moved a few feet further in to beind the airer where he has been twice now. We will be moving another tray into that spot to break that habit. He tends to pick spots towards the edges or the corner of a room apart from when it has been directly next to the litter trays.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Food ordered, all cats now being put on 3 set meals a day to make it easier to feed them different foods. 

Will update you 2 weeks into our kangaroo diet. 

Thanks for the advice so far, lets hope I can get this problem fixed.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Poo amount still looks quite a lot to me - Archie would maybe produce the 2 larger bits but certainly not more than that. 

How many times / day does he go?

Archie would maybe produce the 2 larger bits in 24 hours (some days he doesn't go at all I think it depends what he's eaten when out!) and only goes once

Mia's tend to be smaller but she goes twice a day so probably slightly less than Archie in total


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Lilylass said:


> Poo amount still looks quite a lot to me - Archie would maybe produce the 2 larger bits but certainly not more than that.
> 
> How many times / day does he go?
> 
> ...


It used to be twice in 24 hours whereas now he goes once or not at all in 24 hours.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

So we are now going through more days of poo on the floor than in any of the trays. The last couple of times it has been next to the tray with litter scattered on it so maybe he doesn't like the high sided open tray. Am going to replace it with a lower sided one and see if that helps.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Oh no  honestly sometimes I think we all have the patience of saints & think that some would think we're totally bonkers ..... Mia's chucked one of her aggressive fits tonight (for no reason - she was lying quite happily on my knee purring for ages beforehand) *sigh* 

(((hugs))) oggers, as I know it must get you down sometimes, as does her situation me


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Lilylass said:


> Oh no  honestly sometimes I think we all have the patience of saints & think that some would think we're totally bonkers ..... Mia's chucked one of her aggressive fits tonight (for no reason - she was lying quite happily on my knee purring for ages beforehand) *sigh*
> 
> (((hugs))) oggers, as I know it must get you down sometimes, as does her situation me


Sometimes it does but then I think that at least it is poo not wee. I can see it, it doesn't soak into the carpet and is easy to dispose of.

However I really don't want to have to deal with this for another 10 plus years, not when I have kids to look after.

His breeder visited us yesterday and we spoke about it but we are stumped. She says from what she can see he seems happy so she doesn't think it is behavioural and we have now ruled out all options but food and medical.

It is disheartening when I think of all the things I have tried each time thinking that that will be the solution but we are just going backwards with poo on the floor nearly every day not once a week with a poo once a week in the tray.

I keep thinking maybe he has forgotten that he is supposed to poo in the litter tray but even if there is just one in there a month does that not mean he knows what it is for?

I have officially ruled out:
My shift patterns

I can be home all day, doesn't matter

Hubs shift patterns

He has had time off over Xmas

Him being alone vs us at home

Happens even if we haven't left the house

The type of tray, number and locations

He has covered, open high sided, open lower sided and a small tray. Until the other day we had a tray in every room but he ignored all but 3 which we still have present. Same goes for location, there is no magic spot but the 3 locations that the trays are in now seem to be his favourite.

The type of litter

Paper pellets, wood clumping, clay clumping. His preference is always clay.

Him needing something softer than litter

Tried an incontinence pad and small animal bedding sprinkled with cat attract...nothing.

The other cats blocking his access

They are usually in a different room, out or asleep or they just ignore him when he is using the tray.

Him fighting with the others

They can be angels and not raise a paw yet he will still poo. Likewise he can receive a whack for winding them up and he doesn't poo.

Next doors cats

He poos either way

Visitors

He poos even if nobody has been to the house in weeks. We don't have that many visitors, when we do they don't usually stay long.

Deliveries/Post

Bank holidays when there is no post he will still poo

Decorating smells/noises

We stopped weeks ago

Scooping vs not scooping

I was scooping 3 times a day and we still had poo. It is now reduced to one but no change. If we scoop he poos, if we don't he poos.

My next trial will be the food


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## Ragdollsfriend (Feb 13, 2014)

Hi Oggers, sorry to hear you still haven't found a solution or a pattern. Have you thought of getting your carpets professionally cleaned to remove any trace of the poo odour? A cat's nose is at least 50 times more sensitive than ours so Elsworth may still smell something there which makes him convinced this is his toilet 

Btw, Happy New Year and I truly hope 2015 will bring lots of joy and the resolution to this ongoing issue


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Ragdollsfriend said:


> Hi Oggers, sorry to hear you still haven't found a solution or a pattern. Have you thought of getting your carpets professionally cleaned to remove any trace of the poo odour? A cat's nose is at least 50 times more sensitive than ours so Elsworth may still smell something there which makes him convinced this is his toilet
> 
> Btw, Happy New Year and I truly hope 2015 will bring lots of joy and the resolution to this ongoing issue


The carpets were brand new in November so no smell of poo. Spots cleaned thoroughly with Simple Solution, bath mats and bedding always washed with biological washing powder to break down the enzymes.

Even if I did get them cleaned, if he still poos then I would have to clean them daily to remove traces of smell because at the minute it is happening daily. If he is unable to go in his chosen spot he picks a new spot so it isn't a smell thing.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

oggers, have you ever tried putting Elsworth on a bland diet for a couple of 
e.g. poached chicken drumsticks, to see it it makes the quantity he poos smaller? 

A smaller quantity of stools passed per sitting would be more normal for a cat and may be more comfortable for him to pass. You wouldn't want to try it for long as chicken drumsticks would not be a complete meal, but maybe for a couple of days?


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> oggers, have you ever tried putting Elsworth on a bland diet for a couple of
> e.g. poached chicken drumsticks, to see it it makes the quantity he poos smaller?
> 
> A smaller quantity of stools passed per sitting would be more normal for a cat and may be more comfortable for him to pass. You wouldn't want to try it for long as chicken drumsticks would not be a complete meal, but maybe for a couple of days?


Yes I did when we had an episode of soft poo all over the bedroom. Don't know about quantity but they were more normal looking.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Did he use the litter tray every time when you had him on the bland diet?


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> Did he use the litter tray every time when you had him on the bland diet?


It was only 2 days and at the time he was going in the tray more often than not. Just found more poo near the litter tray.

Kangaroo starts today.


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