# Fox Hunting Ban May Be Overturned



## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

I am absolutely appalled to learn that the Conservatives have stressed their eagerness to overturn the fox hunting ban should they get into power :cursing:

I would therefore ask animal lovers everywhere to PLEASE show your disapproval here Polls | Countryfile Magazine


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## Guest (Jul 17, 2009)

vote conservative:biggrin:


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

borderer said:


> vote conservative:biggrin:


Please tell me that you are joking bordy


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## Guinevere13 (Mar 31, 2008)

That's why I was upset about Elliott Morley leaving as he fought hard to stop fox hunting. I really hope it doesn't come back, we are cruel enough to animals as it is without hunting foxes.


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## Marcia (Mar 10, 2009)

I will never vote for the conservatives! 

Take a look at these figures - Leaving Facebook... | Facebook


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Guinevere13 said:


> That's why I was upset about Elliott Morley leaving as he fought hard to stop fox hunting. I really hope it doesn't come back, we are cruel enough to animals as it is without hunting foxes.


i agree, i dont see how we can preach to other countries about animal welfare if fox hunting becomes legal again:nonod:

i voted & also for the badger one & the one to make farmers set aside land for wildlife


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Marcia said:


> I will never vote for the conservatives!
> 
> Take a look at these figures - Leaving Facebook... | Facebook


Just as I thought and has restored my faith in human nature. Many thanks for that link Marcia


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## Marcia (Mar 10, 2009)

The countryside Alience is the biggest joke ever! 

Go Leauge Against Cruel Sports!


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## Guest (Jul 17, 2009)

I have voted and on a few others!!
I think its awful i love foxes  I hope it does not become legal again i am very against it!!


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

fwj01 said:


> You obviously havent seen the mess they make on little lambs... Tear them apart only to eat the kidneys... AND they kill so many chickens. I hope they BAN THE BAN!!!!
> 
> I'm seeing it through farmers eyes. Farmers with guns... Straight shot Bang, dead. Instant.
> 
> ...


A few facts -

Foxes are not significant predators of farm livestock

Foxes are highly adaptable and live mostly on earthworms, rodents, rabbits and carrion. For this reason foxes are of positive benefit to most farmers.

Foxes are expert scavengers which is why they have been so effective in establishing urban fox populations. Foxes will prey on ground nesting birds but rarely on lambs.

Post-mortem evidence has demonstrated that lambs taken by foxes are likely to be either already dead or weak, non viable lambs.

According to MAFF, predation of foxes on lambs is nationally 'insignificant'. Studies show that lamb losses are between 10% and 24% from hypothermia, malnutrition or disease, but even sheep farmers only claim that only 0.5% are due to foxes.
Hunting does not control fox populations

Hunts kill around 20,000 foxes a year, but this is only 3% of the fox population.

The fox population is governed by the year round availability of food in defended territories.

Where foxes are persecuted by humans more cubs are produced to restore their population levels.

Studies in Europe have shown that fox populations can survive losses of up to 70% and still recover fully in the following year.

Where foxes are killed this merely created a vacant territory which will be quickly filled by other foxes.
Hunting is cruel by design

Foxhounds are bred to run more slowly than the fox to sustain a good chase. The fox will outrun the hounds initially until it is exhausted and overtaken by the hounds.

Many foxes escape by hiding in fox earths or badger setts and will be dealt with by the terrier men.

Hounds do not kill foxes instantly with a 'nip to the back of the neck'. Canids do not kill in this way but rather tend to bring down their prey by a series of bites and tears to their quarry. The League has obtained post-mortem evidence from veterinary surgeons to support that this is how foxes recovered by League monitors have died.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Can we please keep this to the request by the op 

if you dont agree then just turn and walk away otherwise this will become a really heated arguement and will end up being closed 

We all have our own thoughts on this one but that is not what is being asked for


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## Marcia (Mar 10, 2009)

Nina said:


> A few facts -
> 
> Foxes are not significant predators of farm livestock
> 
> ...


Interesting facts there Nina, not that i expect many people will believe you 
Although universities etc, not just the league have done post-mortems and come up with the same results. 
Foxes are NOT killed in seconds, even an ex huntsman said that one hunt that he participated in, they chased down a fox and when the dogs (oh god sorry, hounds ) got to the fox, it took an agonising 10-15mins for that poor fox to finally die


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

tashi said:


> Can we please keep this to the request by the op
> 
> if you dont agree then just turn and walk away otherwise this will become a really heated arguement and will end up being closed
> 
> We all have our own thoughts on this one but that is not what is being asked for


Tashi, I did not want this to turn into a free for all and would hate this to be closed.

People are entitled to their opinion and I LOVE good healthy debate. A good example was my Cesar Milan thread. Everyone has been good tempered. I think they are too afraid of my wet kippers


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Marcia said:


> Interesting facts there Nina, not that i expect many people will believe you
> Although universities etc, not just the league have done post-mortems and come up with the same results.
> Foxes are NOT killed in seconds, even an ex huntsman said that one hunt that he participated in, they chased down a fox and when the dogs (oh god sorry, hounds ) got to the fox, it took an agonising 10-15mins for that poor fox to finally die


The facts were taken from the RSPCA website so I cannot take the credit for the text  They were my thoughts exactly though


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## Marcia (Mar 10, 2009)

I think what really annoys me though is when foxhounds trample peoples gardens and 'accidentally' kill peoples cats and small dogs!

Also, if huntsmen are currently acting within the law, why when they see a hunt moniter, do they beat them up? 
I'm not sure if you heard about the couple who were assaulted by a huntsman?


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

I would be surprised if it was overturned. The numbers of people attending drag hunts has surpassed all expections. I know our local hunt will never revert to hunting animals (they were drag hunting long before the ban), as the numbers attending has tripled since the ban. A few hunts have actually reported such an increase they have had to bring in more dogs and employ more people, one in the eye for the pro-hunters who were professing doom and gloom at the implementation of a ban!!!:001_tt2:


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## Marcia (Mar 10, 2009)

fwj01 said:


> Err yeah. You cant really give out random googled facts that you don't necessarily know are true. I have grown up on a farm and seen what foxes do to animals...
> 
> As for terrier and hunt 'facts'. I am against this. I dont think its fair on the dogs.
> 
> ...


Seeing as your not going to bother, i'll mention that this link contains photos of dead/mutilated animals


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

JSR said:


> I would be surprised if it was overturned. The numbers of people attending drag hunts has surpassed all expections. I know our local hunt will never revert to hunting animals (they were drag hunting long before the ban), as the numbers attending has tripled since the ban. A few hunts have actually reported such an increase they have had to bring in more dogs and employ more people, one in the eye for the pro-hunters who were professing doom and gloom at the implementation of a ban!!!:001_tt2:


Well I can only speak for the villagers around me and arable farmers actually banned the hunt off their land due to the damage caused.

Ashridge Forest in Hemel Hempstead, also banned the hunt, since they too caused terrible damage and the hounds actually killed an elderly ladies Yorkshire Terrier. It was reported in all the local press which created outrage.

I will say however, that if I witnessed a fox attacking my chickens, I would undoubtedly shoot it on site. Hunting on the other hand is undeniably barbaric and hunts have been found to actually breed foxes for the pleasure of their sick pursuits.


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## Guest (Jul 17, 2009)

Its really funnhy because a man that helps out at the wildlife hospital i help out at is a farmer!
He has lambs, chickens and pigs! and foxes that visit his land! Yes they have took chickens but never have they took a lamb!
Sorry i find it very hard to belive a fox would take a health lamb! just my views!


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

i wont be voting conservatives anyway. although this just makes me hate them even more. conservatives dont give a monkeys about anyone except people with money, if you have money your ok but they do nothing to help out those that for whatever reason need financial assistance. also maggy thatcher took away free milk at schools. stealing from children is barbaric!!! 

although to be fair all gorvernments are crap. maybe some of us here should band together and start our own. call it the animal welfare party!! lol

i also hate any sport where people sit on horses, its sooooo unnatural for a horse to be sat on. and so cruel. not nice for the dogs, foxes or any other animal that gets in the way and trampled


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

Nina said:


> Well I can only speak for the villagers around me and arable farmers actually banned the hunt off their land due to the damage caused.
> 
> Ashridge Forest in Hemel Hempstead, also banned the hunt, since they too caused terrible damage and the hounds actually killed an elderly ladies Yorkshire Terrier. It was reported in all the local press which created outrage.
> 
> I will say however, that if I witnessed a fox attacking my chickens, I would undoubtedly shoot it on site. Hunting on the other hand is undeniably barbaric and hunts have been found to actually breed foxes for the pleasure of their sick pursuits.


Really! Round here it's actively encouraged by the farmers, they recieve alot of support and good will from hunt members. As I said we've been drag hunting here for years so it's actually no skin off anyone's nose when hunting prey was banned, but as alot of people were unaware the hunt was drag they didn't attend out of principle (myself included) but have now since joined and are extreamly happy with the situation as it stands.

So would you want drag hunting banned too? As the potential for the hounds to cause damage to other animals is obviously still a possibility? Personally I would hate to see it banned in all forms, it's something horses and owners enjoy immensly and I for one would be upset to not see the tradition upheld.


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## Guest (Jul 17, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Its really funnhy because a man that helps out at the wildlife hospital i help out at is a farmer!
> He has lambs, chickens and pigs! and foxes that visit his land! Yes they have took chickens but never have they took a lamb!
> Sorry i find it very hard to belive a fox would take a health lamb! just my views!


They do!!!!!
Mainly on the fells and moors


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## Guinevere13 (Mar 31, 2008)

The arguement that foxes take food that we then can't have is not a very good one considering how much meat is wasted at supermarkets every day! Obviously there is an overproduction of meat. I do sympathise though with those who face the sight of their animals slaughtered. I would not wish that on anyone.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

This is why I vote labour


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

JSR said:


> Really! Round here it's actively encouraged by the farmers, they recieve alot of support and good will from hunt members. As I said we've been drag hunting here for years so it's actually no skin off anyone's nose when hunting prey was banned, but as alot of people were unaware the hunt was drag they didn't attend out of principle (myself included) but have now since joined and are extreamly happy with the situation as it stands.
> 
> So would you want drag hunting banned too? As the potential for the hounds to cause damage to other animals is obviously still a possibility? Personally I would hate to see it banned in all forms, it's something horses and owners enjoy immensely and I for one would be upset to not see the tradition upheld.


I cannot recall mentioning drag hunts 

I am only stating the facts with regard to the villages around me, and Ashridge Forest, for the reasons I explained in my previous post.

Perhaps I am just lucky that I tend to meet horse owners and farmers that are like minded and do not wish to participate in such a barbaric sport, since 'sport' is exactly what it is.

I seem to remember the hunts stating that horses and hounds would be shot and lives ruined if a ban was introduced. Nice to know from your post that this was not the case!

I have already said that I would shoot any fox I saw taking my chickens, but that does not mean that I would lend my support to fox being subjected to a slow and painful death.

Surely anyone that support fox hunting, will also support other blood sports such as bull fighting etc.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

sequeena said:


> This is why I vote labour


Me Too...............


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

I never wish to harm a fox
But i don't like them
They killed my mates puppy


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## Marcia (Mar 10, 2009)

Nina said:


> Surely anyone that support fox hunting, will also support other blood sports such as bull fighting etc.


Exactly. Although unlike most of the British population, the Spanish and French are starting to see sense and ban bull fighting


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Patterdale_lover said:


> I never wish to harm a fox
> But i don't like them
> They killed my mates puppy


I hate them because they killed my cat but I would never actively seek one out and kill it.


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Its really funnhy because a man that helps out at the wildlife hospital i help out at is a farmer!
> He has lambs, chickens and pigs! and foxes that visit his land! Yes they have took chickens but never have they took a lamb!
> Sorry i find it very hard to belive a fox would take a health lamb! just my views!


Sorry Kerry! but they can and the do! normally shortly after delivery, also here are orphaned lambs remember!!


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Being a horse rider myself, I don't see the huge satisfaction in watching a fox ripped apart as opposed to following a scent. Its not like I'd expect a farmer to sit by an watch a fox harm its livestock, but you can kill them much more humanely.

The worst argument I heard is 'but its historic', to which I replied, 'Hitler is historic but I've not heard many who want him back'


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## Marcia (Mar 10, 2009)

Tinsley said:


> Being a horse rider myself, I don't see the huge satisfaction in watching a fox ripped apart as opposed to following a scent. Its not like I'd expect a farmer to sit by an watch a fox harm its livestock, but you can kill them much more humanely.
> 
> The worst argument I heard is 'but its historic', to which I replied, 'Hitler is historic but I've not heard many who want him back'


Don't forget, it was also 'tradition' to burn witches at the stake!


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

lol. if we were all traditional we'd all be church goers, women still wouldnt have a vote (we wouldnt have to work either ) we wouldnt have technology or medicine and we certinally wouldnt keep pets. What if cavemen hadnt moved forward because it was traditional, wed all be wearing fur and hitting people on the head and some other species (possibly the fox) would have taken over as the big bad boss, hunting us with dogs and horses. lol


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

cassie01 said:


> lol. if we were all traditional we'd all be church goers, women still wouldnt have a vote (we wouldnt have to work either ) we wouldnt have technology or medicine and we certinally wouldnt keep pets. What if cavemen hadnt moved forward because it was traditional, wed all be wearing fur and hitting people on the head and some other species (possibly the fox) would have taken over as the big bad boss, hunting us with dogs and horses. lol


I wanted to rep you again but I've already given it to you for your other post, LOL!


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## minizoo (Jul 13, 2009)

yeah we all have to move forward but we also need to feed our families and make a living..i have known a lot of the same people who harp on about it being cruel that happily lay mouse traps or poison rats


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## Missymoo (May 19, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> Me Too...............


Me three!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## foxxy cleopatra (Nov 18, 2008)

fox hunting for the win!


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

Nina said:


> I cannot recall mentioning drag hunts
> 
> I am only stating the facts with regard to the villages around me, and Ashridge Forest, for the reasons I explained in my previous post.
> 
> ...


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## Marcia (Mar 10, 2009)

cassie01 said:


> lol. if we were all traditional we'd all be church goers, women still wouldnt have a vote (we wouldnt have to work either ) we wouldnt have technology or medicine and we certinally wouldnt keep pets. What if cavemen hadnt moved forward because it was traditional, wed all be wearing fur and hitting people on the head and some other species (possibly the fox) would have taken over as the big bad boss, hunting us with dogs and horses. lol


I've given you rep for that 

Anyone that thinks that killing animals as part of a 'sport' are no animal lovers imo. They are just pathetic people looking for excuses to kill an innocent animal for no reason.

It's time that these "people" (i use that term loosely) start getting with the time and stop living in the dark ages


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Marcia said:


> Exactly. Although unlike most of the British population, the Spanish and French are starting to see sense and ban bull fighting


sweeping statements there from you and nina and a tad factually wrong to boot. I support fox huting but don't support bull fighting or any other blood sport, including fishing.

I'm also dubious of the 20,000, is that 20,000 hunts a year. Is that horses and hounds alone? There are only around 600 in scotland alone and i doubt they all managed to get their fox. According to animal aid it's 40,000 p/a.

According to peta there were only 194 fox hunts before the ban.. that's a lot of foxes for each hunt.

I know a hunting family and the local farms they hunted with have suffered with the lack of hunts, not just in increased fox populations and their snatching of livestock but from lack of hunt revenue.

NO bio-population is self regulating (even we haven't managed this unless you count china's 1 baby rule), it's predator and food regulated, with no predators it's disease regulated. Just like rabbits and myxi, fox populations will be regulated by disease (which can be passed on to your dogs while out walking in the countryside and various other animals).


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## Guinevere13 (Mar 31, 2008)

NO bio-population is self regulating (even we haven't managed this unless you count china's 1 baby rule), it's predator and food regulated, with no predators it's disease regulated. Just like rabbits and *myxi*, fox populations will be regulated by disease (which can be passed on to your dogs while out walking in the countryside and various other animals).[/QUOTE]

Myxi is a cruel man made disease so is an unnatural way of controlling the rabbit population. Yet another example of human kinds interference in the animal kingdom. Many of the diseases wild animals have are exacerbated by humans, the animals are just blamed for causing the problem and what is our answer to everything? Kill it!


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

eh? it isn't a man-made virus it's a natural (myxoma) virus, which was found in Uruguay in the late 1800's, it was introduced to other countries to control populations by humans yes, but it now mostly occurs in populations that are overcrowded and now has around a 50% death rate rather than 100%. It is also a less virulent strain than first discovered, rabbits have an immunity to it up to a point, when their food and living conditions and therefore health deteriorate due to over-population.

However, i was only using it as an example there are plenty of other diseases that generally only appear when populations are too large, i was using myxi as it is a well known disease and, i thought, a well understood one by this forum, obviously i was wrong. There is a vaccination for this virus.

Disease is an entirely natural population control (as long as it's not man-made obviously lol) and has been the biggest population controller, bar predators, since the year dot.

Humans in general, only exacerbate wild animal diseases where they reduce their territory increasing the amount of contact, reducing food and therefore health.. or by passing it on by other means (foot and mouth for instance).
Wild animals are also the reason for many domestic human and pet diseases so it works both ways. badgers and cattle, foxes and dogs (distemper).


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## Guinevere13 (Mar 31, 2008)

Ok so I put man made instead of deliberately introduced by man but it doesn't mean I don't understand it is a cruel disease. So there is a vaccine for it, so what? That doesn't help the rabbits in the wild does it? They still suffer. Disease does regulate population, but it is a delicate balance. My point was that humans are always interfering with the balance.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Sorry but your post implied you knew nothing about the disease, so i was simply informing you of the facts.

Same can be said for any other predator though. Yes humans can interfere with the balance but sometimes it can induce a positive reaction, less predators means more food for the ones that aren't knobbled. As long as preds aren't wiped out to such an extent that the prey population explodes and introduces other problems (especially in grazing predators, where they can strip areas bare). The opposite effect with too many predators isn't just devastating on the prey population but all that the prey population affects too.

I think fox hunting, while cruel, has a good population culling effect, it affects the 3% of the population and generally it's that 3% that are the problem causers in the first place, they wouldn't be hunted if the farmer wasn't aware of their existance through (generally) stock loss.

Once they stop taking their natural wild food, they are either lazy or over populated. neither is a good indicator of overall population health.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Guinevere13 said:


> Ok so I put man made instead of deliberately introduced by man but it doesn't mean I don't understand it is a cruel disease. So there is a vaccine for it, so what? That doesn't help the rabbits in the wild does it? They still suffer. Disease does regulate population, but it is a delicate balance. My point was that humans are always interfering with the balance.


exactly! i totally agree, we have interfered with eco systems all over the world, for example the coyote population was brought back into balance when Wolves were reintroduced to the Yellowstone region & species like the red fox (which is rare in the USA) has increased. The problem with fox hunting is dogs dont just kill diseased they kill healthy animals aswell, there has never been fox hunting where i live & ive never seen a diseased looking fox either alive in the countryside or dead on the roads, so i dont think this is a good arguament for overturning the ban.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

that's the point though, the hunts get rid of the buggers that do all the damage the HEALTHY ones.. disease is far less exact when taking whole areas of foxes due to overcrowding, think swine flu in this case. while the dogs getting the fox isn't nice, it does sometimes get away.

overcrowding increases contact, increases spread of disease, increases area of disease as overcrowding induces travel to either find new dens or food, which would affect more then 3% of the population. The disease foxes get are often transferrable to pets and food stock.

the other factor you have to look at with foxes is their hunting habits.. once they've found a food source they can exploit they will go back to it and teach their young where it is... they then have pups.. they teach their young..one farmer can lose what 30 chickens a week someone said? Each week? to how many foxes? even once a month that's alot of birds who are ripped to shreds and terrified, who aren't the foxes natural food.

over population and predator laziness can not only increase incidence of disease it's a perpetual cycle that culling can omit.

Foxes are only culled in specific areas by hunts... other colonies are completely unaffected by it, 3%. yes it's cruel and painful etc it could be changed slightly to be less so, better hound regulation, restraint etc.. but that's not being asked for...If the fox survives to tell the tale... alot of the time it's smart enough to avoid the area and breaking the food stealing circle, if it doesn't it doesn't pass it's knowledge on to it's pups and the food stock is safe for abit longer and the farmer loses less food. If you want fox hunting to never rear it's ugly head again, then put your name on the petition, but remember what that the cost of lack of predation means. 

Other methods of culling aren't as escapable (shooting, although less sucessful) far less pleasant (poisons or terrier-men which take up ~35% of all 'hunting' kills in england and wales).


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## Guinevere13 (Mar 31, 2008)

owieprone said:


> that's the point though, the hunts get rid of the buggers that do all the damage the HEALTHY ones.. disease is far less exact when taking whole areas of foxes due to overcrowding, think swine flu in this case. while the dogs getting the fox isn't nice, it does sometimes get away.
> 
> overcrowding increases contact, increases spread of disease, increases area of disease as overcrowding induces travel to either find new dens or food, which would affect more then 3% of the population. The disease foxes get are often transferrable to pets and food stock.
> 
> ...


Replace the word foxes with humans and you have us described to a tee!  I don't dislike people as a whole, honest, I just think that we are very arrogant when it comes to the natural world and we think we own the lot and can do what we like to it "because we can". We often don't stop to think of the consequences of our actions, think "Oh I'm hungry, lets kill all the birds on the island for tea. Oops there's none left for tomorrow!" I just get so annoyed at it all, which is why I don't usually reply to threads like this as I tend to rant. Sorry.  I'll shut up now.


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## Marcia (Mar 10, 2009)

owieprone said:


> I think fox hunting, while cruel, has a good population culling effect, it affects the 3% of the population and generally it's that 3% that are the problem causers in the first place, they wouldn't be hunted if the farmer wasn't aware of their existance through (generally) stock loss.


Hunters don't control the population. they do it for fun and fun only 

I have actually spoken to fox hunters who said that whilst they were able to legally hunt, they did it for the thrill and that there was no aspect of 'population control' in it.

Either way, it's not the foxes that are the evil ones, it's us humans. WE destroy habitats, we kill for pleasure (not foxes) and it's us that is suppose to have the intelligence to know better, but we don't! Well that wouldn't be fair on the decent human beings on earth that actually give a damn about nature as a whole.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

owieprone said:


> that's the point though, the hunts get rid of the buggers that do all the damage the HEALTHY ones.. disease is far less exact when taking whole areas of foxes due to overcrowding, think swine flu in this case. while the dogs getting the fox isn't nice, it does sometimes get away.
> 
> overcrowding increases contact, increases spread of disease, increases area of disease as overcrowding induces travel to either find new dens or food, which would affect more then 3% of the population. The disease foxes get are often transferrable to pets and food stock.
> 
> ...


im never gunna agree with you & you're never gunna agree with me

but its the same all over the world look at the beautiful African Hunting Dog (also considered vermin) now on the brink of extinction because of persecution by farmers, not to mention the Cheetah, i believe farmers have to learn to live along side the predators & thankfully some are doing they no longer hunt them they respect them & have made efforts to keep their livestock safe instead of just wiping them out!


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Fox hunting still has the element of culling in the mix there tho marcia. Of course the hunters like it, who doesn't? well most of the forum i suppose but there's nothing like hunting down your pray (paintball anyone?). Actually getting it isn't the thrill the hunter you spoke to was probably talking about though, the thrill of the chase is always better than getting it cos that means the chase if over.
It's a 'sport' now, so of course it's entertaining it wouldn't be so widely subsribed to otherwise.. but do rememberit was originally a way to cull, and if there wasn't a massive overpopulation and the problem it brings it wouldn't have started up in the first place.

Yep we destroy habitats, we ourselves right now are being destroyers of worlds tapping away on our internet on this forum.....all the decent humanbeings as you call them are on this forum... destroying the world by using energy wantonly for their own recreation and eating (not just meat but anything that hasn't just fallen off the tree). 

you can start at fox hunting but where will you stop?  maybe that's another discussion thread?

Guinevere, keep talking mate i was enjoying the discussion. I'm a misanthrope but i love being devils advocate on this forum cos A i get to push buttons, but mostly B people tend to have really good opinions and ideas on stuff (like fox hunting).

I think most folk on here have figured me out by now.. i'm not a complete and utter arse i just pretend to be to get discussions going, not arguments, i don't want to upset anyone just get all points of view  and you can't do that if everyone agrees can you?


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

The moral objection is that people actual take pleasure in the process of pointless killing. To decent human beings it is nothing short of perverse in participating in blood sports, or managing the land to encourage them, just so they can be shot. Fox hunters derive their enjoyment from the thrill of the chase and watching a small defenseless animal being torn to shreds and that is their real reason for lobbying for it return. 

Furthermore hunt supporters insists that hounds inflict a quick, clean death and that the hounds kill the fox with a quick nip on the back of the neck, while the evidence shows that foxes can be alive for some time after they are caught by hounds and considerable, agonising injuries can be inflicted upon them. Many foxes have been recovered with their innards torn out, but no sign of that fatal nip.

How on earth than Britain be considered as a Country of animal lovers if the ban on hunting with hounds is reversed!


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

my mate who's a hunt-beagle owner doesn't derive any pleasure from the catch at all, it's the hunt he enjoys and the breeding of the dogs. neither does he or his family infer or insist in anyway that the kill is quick, they know what it's like they don't sugar coat it.

if the fox is still alive after the hounds have finished they shoot it. although they do try to get to it before the hounds do and shoot it but as is the nature of a hunt it can't always be like that.

i think it's a bit harsh to tar all with one brush.

I see no difference to letting the hounds catch it than to fishing, landing the fish and watching it asphyxiate, just as terrifying i'm sure, yet it's not merely a national sport it's a national dish also. Worse if it's tuna. (which i eat!  doh).

How many chickens and other food stock would agree with you though Nina ? i'm sure there is many a case of them being recovered with their innards ripped out and no sign of the 'humane' killing neck bite.

Britain is considered an animal loving country because of the number of pet owners not it's effort to stop animal cruelty.


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2009)

Hi fox hunting has been our heritage for hundreds of years, I hate animals being killed for fun honest I do, but I have friends who used to be in the hunt & they say it is not often a fox is actually caught, there are masses of people out of work since the ban (I know you are going to say good cos of the poor little fox), go into any rural pub & what pictures do you see on the walls (a hunt), people have got rid of their horses as they no longer can afford to keep them, what about the hunt dress, that factory must be out of work now, hunt farms that made extra money from the hunt are going to wrack & ruin. It all has a knock on affect, everything this country used to stand for has gone to the dog's, because of being politicaly correct etc, we no longer have nativity play's for our children, our teachers cannot put a plaster on our childrens cuts, don't get me started.


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2009)

do we stop eating poultry? fish? pheasant? pig? do you stop giving your pet meat????? It was an animal you know, or does that not count? after all they didn't even get a head start for goodness sake.


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## Marcia (Mar 10, 2009)

owieprone said:


> Fox hunting still has the element of culling in the mix there tho marcia. Of course the hunters like it, who doesn't?


I don't!

But this isn't meant to be an argument anyway. The fox hunting debate will go on for centuries. There will never be agreement on either side


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

BALOO J. said:


> Hi fox hunting has been our heritage for hundreds of years, I hate animals being killed for fun honest I do, but I have friends who used to be in the hunt & they say it is not often a fox is actually caught, there are masses of people out of work since the ban (I know you are going to say good cos of the poor little fox), go into any rural pub & what pictures do you see on the walls (a hunt), people have got rid of their horses as they no longer can afford to keep them, what about the hunt dress, that factory must be out of work now, hunt farms that made extra money from the hunt are going to wrack & ruin. It all has a knock on affect, everything this country used to stand for has gone to the dog's, because of being politicaly correct etc, we no longer have nativity play's for our children, our teachers cannot put a plaster on our childrens cuts, don't get me started.


i think thats what the Spaniards say about Bullfighting....its their 'Heritage'!


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2009)

Are you talking 20,000 fox hunts world wide????? have you been reserching this for hours, day's? months? looks like you already have every answer answered, why do a thread? how many battery hens are murdered for sunday lunch? for goodness sake can we get this forum back to fun & light hearted banter, I know there are problems out there but doing a thread with ever argument answered before every question to make someone sound like a saint is silly.It's folk like you & pc policies that has the country in the mess it's in . no offence but lets get real.


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2009)

Well isn't it?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

BALOO J. said:


> Are you talking 20,000 fox hunts world wide????? have you been reserching this for hours, day's? months? looks like you already have every answer answered, why do a thread? how many battery hens are murdered for sunday lunch? for goodness sake can we get this forum back to fun & light hearted banter, I know there are problems out there but doing a thread with ever argument answered before every question to make someone sound like a saint is silly.It's folk like you & pc policies that has the country in the mess it's in . no offence but lets get real.


Nina's entitiled to do a thread on whatever she likes, shes entitled to her own opinions & she never gets personal!


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2009)

Well bull fighting is Spanish heritage, no argument here!!!! Why when someone dos'nt agree they are argumentative people shouldn't start a thread if they dont want peoples views!!!!!!


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2009)

BALOO J. said:


> Are you talking 20,000 fox hunts world wide????? have you been reserching this for hours, day's? months? looks like you already have every answer answered, why do a thread? how many battery hens are murdered for sunday lunch? for goodness sake can we get this forum back to fun & light hearted banter, I know there are problems out there but doing a thread with ever argument answered before every question to make someone sound like a saint is silly.It's folk like you & pc policies that has the country in the mess it's in . no offence but lets get real.


I for one like a good debate, why should we all be lighthearted all the time?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

BALOO J. said:


> Well bull fighting is Spanish heritage, no argument here!!!! Why when someone dos'nt agree they are argumentative people shouldn't start a thread if they dont want peoples views!!!!!!


Bear baiting was once our Heritage too, what ashame they banned it


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2009)

Who got personal?????? I'm entitled to my opinion to her thread. Why are you now talking for her?? You now have made it personal. I think it it's pc to call it bullying if two or more act as a gang. Now you are proof of how it can turn into a dangerous debate. See how easy it all can be turned round. Let's all shake mice & be nice.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

OK let us keep this one on track 

everyone is entitled to their own views and this is one that not everybody will EVER agree with so lets keep it healthy


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

ok lets shake mice then


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2009)

My mouse is now shaking hands with yours. have a good evening.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

BALOO J. said:


> My mouse is now shaking hands with yours. have a good evening.


i hope you have a Good evening aswell


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

noushka05 said:


> Nina's entitiled to do a thread on whatever she likes, shes entitled to her own opinions & she never gets personal!


Thank you Noushka.

I will be really upset if this thread get closed as a result of people getting personal. PLEASE, can we keep this to healthy debate 

There are a few people on the forum who's ideas are wildly different from mine. They are as entitled to their views as I mine and forums are just that, places for discussion.

As for hunting with hounds being part of our heritage, well, that beggars belief for the reasons explained in previous threads.


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2009)

changed my mind about the post


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Dunno about bear baiting making a come back noushka but forum member baiting certainly is a sport on here 

PC gone mad or not, i have to agree with the pc brigade on here :001_tt2: fox hunting isn't the most efficient way to cull foxes, i'm sure the hunt-kill ratio is quite low. What we're trying to discuss is whether it should be allowed back and why we think that.

me being devils advocate (yet again teehee!) am trying to argue for, everyone else seems to be against (yay! for opposition!). Debating is good for the old brain not only does it get exercise but it learns interesting stuff along the way.

anyhooo!!! back to the debate!

heritage or not, the economic impact (as baloo pointed out) was quite severe to many rural communities, the fox didn't merely win this fight it won on a grand scale, horses and dogs were put down, breeding was stopped, income from hunters before and after the hunt (down the pub and to the hunt master) was decimated. Not all real hunts were able to do get the support for drag hunts, many villages lost their hunts altogether and the villages themselves have lost income.

reistating fox hunting (with more rules and regs to appease the pc brigade  lol) might actually be a good thing in thelong run, not only for the farmers but the villages who've lost out too.


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## Rebecca and the pack (Jul 3, 2009)

When foxes kill lambs and chickens, they merely got their first. If they didnt kill them, no doubt some human would come along later and kill them themsleves! Most of the animals you are talking about are raised to die. What ever kills it, its going to end up in somebodies belly either way. No animal deserves to die a death that horrific for the slefish pleasures of a human. Dont we do enough damage already? Foxes are only trying to survive the best way they can.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

owieprone said:


> heritage or not, the economic impact (as baloo pointed out) was quite severe to many rural communities, the fox didn't merely win this fight it won on a grand scale, horses and dogs were put down, breeding was stopped, income from hunters before and after the hunt (down the pub and to the hunt master) was decimated. Not all real hunts were able to do get the support for drag hunts, many villages lost their hunts altogether and the villages themselves have lost income.
> 
> reistating fox hunting (with more rules and regs to appease the pc brigade  lol) might actually be a good thing in thelong run, not only for the farmers but the villages who've lost out too.


I have not seen any evidence of horses and hounds being shot  In an earlier thread it was stated that drag hunting was making its mark, I think that was Natik's post, but I may be wrong 

The mere fact that huntsmen were prepared to shoot their horses and hounds speaks volumes about their character


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Nina said:


> The mere fact that huntsmen were prepared to shoot their horses and hounds speaks volumes about their character


dosent it just!!!:cursing:


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## MissG (Apr 18, 2008)

BALOO J. said:


> Are you talking 20,000 fox hunts world wide????? have you been reserching this for hours, day's? months? looks like you already have every answer answered, why do a thread? how many battery hens are murdered for sunday lunch? for goodness sake can we get this forum back to fun & light hearted banter, I know there are problems out there but doing a thread with ever argument answered before every question to make someone sound like a saint is silly.It's folk like you & pc policies that has the country in the mess it's in . no offence but lets get real.


LOL.

Comparing fox hunting to eating meat.


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2009)

Nina said:


> I have not seen any evidence of horses and hounds being shot  In an earlier thread it was stated that drag hunting was making its mark, I think that was Natik's post, but I may be wrong
> 
> The mere fact that huntsmen were prepared to shoot their horses and hounds speaks volumes about their character





noushka05 said:


> dosent it just!!!:cursing:


Sorry girls, but there are bad people in all walks of life, you cannot tar all huntsman because of a few idiots


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> Sorry girls, but there are bad people in all walks of life, you cannot tar all huntsman because of a few idiots


i dont know about horses but they shoot unwanted hounds all the time....What Happens To Hounds - The Reality of Foxhunting


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Nina said:


> The moral objection is that people actual take pleasure in the process of pointless killing. To decent human beings it is nothing short of perverse in participating in blood sports, or managing the land to encourage them, just so they can be shot. Fox hunters derive their enjoyment from the thrill of the chase and watching a small defenseless animal being torn to shreds and that is their real reason for lobbying for it return.
> 
> Furthermore hunt supporters insists that hounds inflict a quick, clean death and that the hounds kill the fox with a quick nip on the back of the neck, while the evidence shows that foxes can be alive for some time after they are caught by hounds and considerable, agonising injuries can be inflicted upon them. Many foxes have been recovered with their innards torn out, but no sign of that fatal nip.
> 
> How on earth than Britain be considered as a Country of animal lovers if the ban on hunting with hounds is reversed!


Just picking up on the first line of this quote, and by no means am I picking on you Nina, just that it hit me that animals are bred and killed for our pleasure in appalling circumstances in this country (and others) all the time, as food? Battery hens being one of the worst examples, hundreds of those are raised and killed probably every day.

What makes fox hunting so bad in comparison?


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> i dont know about horses but they shoot unwanted hounds all the time....What Happens To Hounds - The Reality of Foxhunting


But that is an anti site, I could give you loads of sites that give you the opposite opinion.
It just depends on what you want to believe if you haven't had first hand experience


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> But that is an anti site, I could give you loads of sites that give you the opposite opinion.
> It just depends on what you want to believe if you haven't had first hand experience


im afraid i dont believe for a minute they retire them somewhere when theyre no longer useful, & i find it hard to believe they take them to a vet to put them to sleep either. What do you think happens to foxhounds who are old, infirm or the ones that dont make the grade Rona?


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2009)

I really don't know, but then neither do most on this site.
I've found this that may be of some interest to some
http://www.vet-wildlifemanagement.o...9_hunting_wildlife_management_moral_issue.pdf

What I wonder is what is happening to all the old and wounded foxes that the hunts would have dispatched quickly. Are their deaths now protracted and are they suffering less because of it


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## MissG (Apr 18, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just picking up on the first line of this quote, and by no means am I picking on you Nina, just that it hit me that animals are bred and killed for our pleasure in appalling circumstances in this country (and others) all the time, as food? Battery hens being one of the worst examples, hundreds of those are raised and killed probably every day.
> 
> What makes fox hunting so bad in comparison?


What makes you think that Nina, or anyone else against hunting eats battery farmed meat?


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2009)

MissG said:


> What makes you think that Nina, or anyone else against hunting eats battery farmed meat?


Oh come on, it's obvious that some do


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I'll be quite honest, I eat battery eggs, simply because I can't afford organic and I'm not going to apologise for it.


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## MissG (Apr 18, 2008)

rona said:


> Oh come on, it's obvious that some do


Some might, and that's their perogative. But they should keep stum about it, or else they could be quite hypocritical.


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## MissG (Apr 18, 2008)

sequeena said:


> I'll be quite honest, I eat battery eggs, simply because I can't afford organic and I'm not going to apologise for it.


How much are battery farmed eggs?

(Seriously, I don't know)


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

MissG said:


> How much are battery farmed eggs?
> 
> (Seriously, I don't know)


Box of 6 for under £1
In tesco I think a box of 12 are about £1.50 possibly a bit more.


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## MissG (Apr 18, 2008)

sequeena said:


> Box of 6 for under £1
> In tesco I think a box of 12 are about £1.50 possibly a bit more.


I see.

I just bought some "Happy Eggs" today from Morrissons, 6 for £1. But they were on special offer.

The normal free range ones are £1.29 for 6.

Do you have any local farms near you, or maybe even neighbours with chickens?


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

MissG said:


> I see.
> 
> I just bought some "Happy Eggs" today from Morrissons, 6 for £1. But they were on special offer.
> 
> ...


No I live in a populated town. I have to go a fair few miles before I get to a farmers market.

I'd love to go all organic, believe me, but since I had to quit my job and with the OH's debt it's just not possible.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I buy free range eggs whenever I can, either from the shop, or from a local supplier. I also buy my meat from butchers, it's very rare I'll buy anything other than cleaning products from a supermarket, I don't happen to think they're very super at all.

The reason I posed the question was for a serious reason. How is it ok to judge one particular cruelty as unjustifiable, and yet if you can't afford free range eggs battery farmed ones will do? Or the chickens themselves?? Surely if you don't want cruelty in any form, you would do without?

And I'm not pointing any fingers, just asking the question.


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I buy free range eggs whenever I can, either from the shop, or from a local supplier. I also buy my meat from butchers, it's very rare I'll buy anything other than cleaning products from a supermarket, I don't happen to think they're very super at all.
> 
> The reason I posed the question was for a serious reason. How is it ok to judge one particular cruelty as unjustifiable, and yet if you can't afford free range eggs battery farmed ones will do? Or the chickens themselves?? Surely if you don't want cruelty in any form, you would do without?
> 
> And I'm not pointing any fingers, just asking the question.


I get my egg's from a gamekeeper friend


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I buy free range eggs whenever I can, either from the shop, or from a local supplier. I also buy my meat from butchers, it's very rare I'll buy anything other than cleaning products from a supermarket, I don't happen to think they're very super at all.
> 
> The reason I posed the question was for a serious reason. How is it ok to judge one particular cruelty as unjustifiable, and yet if you can't afford free range eggs battery farmed ones will do? Or the chickens themselves?? Surely if you don't want cruelty in any form, you would do without?
> 
> And I'm not pointing any fingers, just asking the question.


I still want to eat eggs, jusy because I can't afford free range does that mean I should go without? I'm not lucky enough to live near farmers and it's not possible for me to have my own chickens.

You can call me hypocritical but I'm still going to lead my life.

Perhaps I'm desensitized because I'm not the one keeping the chickens in such conditions, I don't know.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

But that's my point, how is it acceptable to be desensitised to one form of cruelty, and not another? 

And it's not meant to be a finger pointing thing, just taking a step back really, cruelty is cruelty, in whatever form. As humans we seem to set some very strange boundaries, I think someone earlier in the thread posted about people feeling it was ok to set mice and rat traps, because they're considered vermin, what makes them different? I'm sure the rodent section of the forum might feel a bit different.


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

sequeena said:


> I still want to eat eggs, jusy because I can't afford free range does that mean I should go without? I'm not lucky enough to live near farmers and it's not possible for me to have my own chickens.
> 
> You can call me hypocritical but I'm still going to lead my life.
> 
> Perhaps I'm desensitized because I'm not the one keeping the chickens in such conditions, I don't know.


No you shouldn't go without, Don't beleave half the stuff they say is free range is any


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Badger's Mum said:


> No you shouldn't go without, Don't beleave half the stuff they say is free range is any


Thanks


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

sequeena said:


> Thanks


No prob's shaw no one one here but the anti's never say about the evil thing's they do to hunt horse's and dog's it sick. I alway's say get the huntsman not his animal's


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Badger's Mum said:


> No prob's shaw no one one here but the anti's never say about the evil thing's they do to hunt horse's and dog's it sick. I alway's say get the huntsman not his animal's


i agree its not the animals fault, i think that most anti's are also appalled that 1,000's of foxhounds are shot every year aswell tho, do the huntsmen kill horses which are no longer useful aswell or do they just send them to the knackers yard Christine?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> I really don't know, but then neither do most on this site.
> I've found this that may be of some interest to some
> http://www.vet-wildlifemanagement.o...9_hunting_wildlife_management_moral_issue.pdf
> 
> What I wonder is what is happening to all the old and wounded foxes that the hunts would have dispatched quickly. Are their deaths now protracted and are they suffering less because of it


although i did get that information on the shooting of foxhounds on the 'league against cruel sports' site, the footage of the 3yr old hound being shot & incinerated was taken by the BBC & a named huntsman describes the fate of hounds who are no longer usefull, so i think its quite evident what happens to them, so even if people hate foxes i would have thought such cruelty to towards dogs would at least outrage dog lovers

i've read your link & im sorry but how ever its dressed up i still think its incredibly cruel, theres loads & loads of video footage of foxhounds chasing & killing foxes & all the footage ive seen is of foxes who look in excellent condition so although im sure hounds kill the old & infirm they dont descriminate between them & the young & healthy animals, plus when they go to ground they are dug out by the terrier men, thats not very 'sporting' is it!!:nonod:, i think the roads the hunters & the farmers take their toll on the fox population without more persecution from the blood thirsty fox hunts.


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> i agree its not the animals fault, i think that most anti's are also appalled that 1,000's of foxhounds are shot every year aswell tho, do the huntsmen kill horses which are no longer useful aswell or do they just send them to the knackers yard Christine?


I don't no too be honest but i do no of some ex hunt horse's at the stable's near me, I really don't no much about the hound's only the pup's that's my boss has at work they stay there for a few month's then go back for training, His got one that failed and his 6 now. Eu rule's now state the horse has to be shot or they can't be fed too the dog's, which ever way the horse or dog is pts it's sad for everyone. But i can say i've never heard of healthy dog's or horse's being shot round here.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> although i did get that information on the shooting of foxhounds on the 'league against cruel sports' site, the footage of the 3yr old hound being shot & incinerated was taken by the BBC & a named huntsman describes the fate of hounds who are no longer usefull, so i think its quite evident what happens to them, so even if people hate foxes i would have thought such cruelty to towards dogs would at least outrage dog lovers
> 
> i've read your link & im sorry but how ever its dressed up i still think its incredibly cruel, theres loads & loads of video footage of foxhounds chasing & killing foxes & all the footage ive seen is of foxes who look in excellent condition so although im sure hounds kill the old & infirm they dont descriminate between them & the young & healthy animals, plus when they go to ground they are dug out by the terrier men, thats not very 'sporting' is it!!:nonod:, i think the roads the hunters & the farmers take their toll on the fox population without more persecution from the blood thirsty fox hunts.


Millions of animals are kept in atrocious conditions in this country and then killed for people to eat. I cannot separate this from either the fox which has a natural existence and the foxhound who would normally have a long and happy life.
The death of an animal is not the main issue as far as I am concerned, it is the quality of life and suffering that goes before that death.
I have never been on a fox hunt, and couldn't possibly watch a fox when the hounds find it, but there are far more disgusting things happening to animals in this country, I just cannot see why fox hunting has been singled out for such venom from the general public


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Badger's Mum said:


> I don't no too be honest but i do no of some ex hunt horse's at the stable's near me, I really don't no much about the hound's only the pup's that's my boss has at work they stay there for a few month's then go back for training, His got one that failed and his 6 now. Eu rule's now state the horse has to be shot or they can't be fed too the dog's, which ever way the horse or dog is pts it's sad for everyone. But i can say i've never heard of healthy dog's or horse's being shot round here.


PLEASE GOD THAT I NEVER GET DESENSATISED to the cruelty in this world.

I note that battery eggs have been mentioned and thought they were to be fazed out. I believe that Sainsburys have stopped selling them and surprised that Tesco continue to do so.

While I do appreciate the cost of buying organic and cruelty free, I have always tried to look beyond the packaging. It never seizes to amaze me how people continue to smoke paying goodness knows how much for cigarettes and then say they cannot afford to eat sensibly. NOT that I am accusing smokers on the forum of doing so, just using this as an instance.

Back to fox hunting. It sickens me to say that puppies that do not show aptitude for hunting, or whose colouring or body shape does not meet the requirements, are usually shot by the kennel man. Foxhounds fortunate enough to make the grade as puppies are trained to chase and kill foxes during the cub-hunting season. It is a particularly unpleasant aspect of hunting that involves the chasing and killing of fox cubs for the purpose of teaching young hounds to kill.

There is no gentle retirement home for these poor animals. When hounds reach the age of six or seven, about half their normal life expectancy, most are simply shot by the very people whom they have served loyally since their birth. That makes a mockery of the hunts claim that in the event of a ban on hunting with dogs they would have no alternative to shooting them, when they shoot them anyway! It is estimated that between 3,000 and 5,000 hounds were killed in that way by hunts each year.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I for one would hate to see foxhunting made legal again.I think the bits that get to me are, 1. the way the fox dies,and secondly its called a sport.If fox's are causing a problem to someones lively hood then why can't they put them to sleep? but to see a fox chased and scared sh*tless before it dies is just sick in my oppion.*


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

Nina said:


> PLEASE GOD THAT I NEVER GET DESENSATISED to the cruelty in this world.
> 
> I note that battery eggs have been mentioned and thought they were to be fazed out. I believe that Sainsburys have stopped selling them and surprised that Tesco continue to do so.
> 
> ...


I cannot believe that any working dog would be killed at such a young age, this is when they are at their peak and are at their most useful


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Nina said:


> PLEASE GOD THAT I NEVER GET DESENSATISED to the cruelty in this world.
> 
> I note that battery eggs have been mentioned and thought they were to be fazed out. I believe that Sainsburys have stopped selling them and surprised that Tesco continue to do so.
> 
> ...


My egg's are free range from a local game keeper. i can afford organic meat also, What i said was i don't think half the stuff is free range. I would like to hear your view's on the anti's, that attack the the horse's and dog's, because i think it's dreadfull. Have to say the dog's round here arn't trained like that round here


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

rona said:


> I cannot believe that any working dog would be killed at such a young age, this is when they are at their peak and are at their most useful


No neither could I which makes it all the more sickening :cursing:

I guess this is just the mentality of these people.


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## spiffy (Jun 30, 2009)

I find killing any animal just for fun a horrible thing. They don't even eat the foxes that they kill, if they did I would probably tolerate it. Hunting to eat is fine by me, hunting for sport... nope. I do not want Foxhunting to be legal again.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Just thought the following link rather interesting. Reports of animals who have been killed by marauding hounds

Pet Killers: The True Face of Foxhunting - Pet Killers


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

Nina said:


> No neither could I which makes it all the more sickening :cursing:
> 
> I guess this is just the mentality of these people.


No, what I meant was I think that that is inaccurate information


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## Marcia (Mar 10, 2009)

Nina said:


> Just thought the following link rather interesting. Reports of animals who have been killed by marauding hounds
> 
> Pet Killers: The True Face of Foxhunting - Pet Killers


Thanks for posting that link Nina. It was very informative.
And it goes to prove that hunts have absoltely no contol over their hounds


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

Yet another Anti site, has no one got links to neutral links with *FACTS*


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## Marcia (Mar 10, 2009)

rona said:


> Yet another Anti site, has no one got links to neutral links with *FACTS*


There is video evidence of huntsmen threatning and assaulting sabs. That's FACT.


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

I don't actually have a problem with Fox hunting tbh...

But then again i'm all for lamping too...


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

Marcia said:


> There is video evidence of huntsmen threatning and assaulting sabs. That's FACT.


There is also massive amounts of evidence on anti's too, as I said before, there are good and bad in all walks of life


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> Millions of animals are kept in atrocious conditions in this country and then killed for people to eat. I cannot separate this from either the fox which has a natural existence and the foxhound who would normally have a long and happy life.
> The death of an animal is not the main issue as far as I am concerned, it is the quality of life and suffering that goes before that death.
> I have never been on a fox hunt, and couldn't possibly watch a fox when the hounds find it, but there are far more disgusting things happening to animals in this country, I just cannot see why fox hunting has been singled out for such venom from the general public


i can only speak for myself & say i havent singled foxhunting out, i try my best not to support any cruelty which is why im a vegetarian, i suppose the general public single it out because foxes are hunted for 'sport' & are not killed for food & i think a lot are very aware that hounds are regularly culled, so its not just cruelty to the one species.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> i can only speak for myself & say i havent singled foxhunting out, i try my best not to support any cruelty which is why im a vegetarian, i suppose the general public single it out because foxes are hunted for 'sport' & are not killed for food & i think a lot are very aware that hounds are regularly culled, so its not just cruelty to the one species.


Then you and Nina are amongst the few that have the moral high ground and I respect you for that


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Badger's Mum said:


> I don't no too be honest but i do no of some ex hunt horse's at the stable's near me, I really don't no much about the hound's only the pup's that's my boss has at work they stay there for a few month's then go back for training, His got one that failed and his 6 now. Eu rule's now state the horse has to be shot or they can't be fed too the dog's, which ever way the horse or dog is pts it's sad for everyone. But i can say i've never heard of healthy dog's or horse's being shot round here.


have you heard of them shooting 'unhealthy' dogs tho? & where do all the other 'failed' or old dogs go?


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## xpalaboyx (Jun 17, 2008)

I hope that they will not make fox hunting legal again.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I find this thread very sad. 

If one small amount of the passion that seems to be evoked by fox hunting were put into other walks of life, such as banning puppy farming, then I'm sure we'd live in a much better country. There seems to be an incredible amount of focus put on one small area of life that has been that way for many, many years in the countryside, and, unfortunately, I have to say that the majority of people against anything to do with fox hunting don't live in or understand the countryside, they'd just let nature get on with it, a complete disaster.

It seems ok to turn your back on other forms of cruelty that *we* as humans need (or think we do at least) to exist, and yet persecute other walks of life.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> Then you and Nina are amongst the few that have the moral high ground and I respect you for that


hehe im not sure about the moral high ground bit but thanks very much Rona:blushing: x


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> have you heard of them shooting 'unhealthy' dogs tho? & where do all the other 'failed' or old dogs go?


No i havn't heard of them being shot and don't no where all of the other's go, As i said we've got one at work, I'll ask my boss when i see him and get back to you. I've asked a couple of time's and not getting any reply's maybe you will, what do you think of the anti's who hurt the hunt dog's and horse's? Don't you think they're as bad as the huntmen?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I find this thread very sad.
> 
> If one small amount of the passion that seems to be evoked by fox hunting were put into other walks of life, such as banning puppy farming, then I'm sure we'd live in a much better country. There seems to be an incredible amount of focus put on one small area of life that has been that way for many, many years in the countryside, and, unfortunately, I have to say that the majority of people against anything to do with fox hunting don't live in or understand the countryside, they'd just let nature get on with it, a complete disaster.
> 
> It seems ok to turn your back on other forms of cruelty that *we* as humans need (or think we do at least) to exist, and yet persecute other walks of life.


as i said in my previous post im passionate about all cruelty,plus i lived in a small village in the countryside until i was 23yrs old & the only disaster to the countryside is man.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Badger's Mum said:


> No i havn't heard of them being shot and don't no where all of the other's go, As i said we've got one at work, I'll ask my boss when i see him and get back to you. I've asked a couple of time's and not getting any reply's maybe you will, what do you think of the anti's who hurt the hunt dog's and horse's? Don't you think they're as bad as the huntmen?


i think theyre discusting Christine, anyone who hurts horses or the hounds arnt true animal lovers theyre scum in my eyes & should be locked up!!.

oh & thanks for asking your boss


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

rona said:


> Yet another Anti site, has no one got links to neutral links with *FACTS*


So rona, the FACTS are the ones that YOU agree with


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> i think theyre discusting Christine, anyone who hurts horses or the hounds arnt true animal lovers theyre scum in my eyes & should be locked up!!.
> 
> oh & thanks for asking your boss


He won't be able to speak for all hunt's Just the one he deal's with though, his away for a couple of day's i'll find out when his back


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

I cannot speak for all hunt saboteurs, but my o/h attended two hunts and on NO occasion was any horse or hound hurt. That is not however, to say that it has happened, just recalling his experience.

I am also giving a link which shows a fox being saved by anti hunters and you will clearly see that noise was used to stop the hounds ripping the fox to shreds.

YouTube - Hunt Saboteurs Save Fox. Ledbury Hunt Nov 2008


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Nina said:


> I cannot speak for all hunt saboteurs, but my o/h attended two hunts and on NO occasion was any horse or hound hurt. That is not however, to say that it has happened, just recalling his experience.
> 
> I am also giving a link which shows a fox being saved by anti hunters and you will clearly see that noise was used to stop the hounds ripping the fox to shreds.
> 
> YouTube - Hunt Saboteurs Save Fox. Ledbury Hunt Nov 2008


OMG that made me cry how could they take pleasure from seeing an animal ripped to shreds, thank God they saved the fox! they were brilliant!!


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## charlie9009 (Nov 24, 2008)

I haven't read all of this thread yet, so I'msorry if I repeat anything thats been said! 

I don't have a problem with fox hunting. I live in an area where fox hnting was very popular, and we used to have alot of meets around here. Since the fox hunting has been banned I believe alot of those places have been struggling, and I know that a stables that used to keep hunting horses has closed down, and another has had to struggle and find another way of earning a living, now they just manage to keep afloat. There were alot of hounds kept near us, thy have all gone, and I'd dread to think where. 

90% of the people round here didn't want to see the fox hunting banned, and the 10% tht did, came from cities. It was a way of life around here, and alot of people earned there money from it. 

I agree that it shold be more regulated if it comes back, as filling in the foxes den is unfair, if the fox makes it back there then it has won, and I'm sure there could be alot of other regulations put in aswell. 

As someone said before, why doesn't someone highlight all the puppy farmers and the conditions the dogs are kept in, and maybe something can be done about that!! And leave the traditions and ways of life for 100's of people alone!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> as i said in my previous post im passionate about all cruelty,plus i lived in a small village in the countryside until i was 23yrs old & the only disaster to the countryside is man.


Unfortunately you're in a minority I feel.

There isn't any wild countryside left, it has been managed for far too long in this country to be left to its own devices. The only reason some habitats exist is because they are managed; there have been areas that have been bought by charitable organisations and 'returned to the wild' with the only consequence being complete loss of habitat and therefore the species that exist on them, complete barren landscapes.

You might not agree with that, but that is how it is, and to keep the diverse range of species and habitats we have in this country it will always require management. Part of that enormous task of management falls on those people who hunt and shoot, amongst others, and they hold an enormous wealth of knowledge.


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Nina said:


> I cannot speak for all hunt saboteurs, but my o/h attended two hunts and on NO occasion was any horse or hound hurt. That is not however, to say that it has happened, just recalling his experience.
> 
> I am also giving a link which shows a fox being saved by anti hunters and you will clearly see that noise was used to stop the hounds ripping the fox to shreds.
> 
> YouTube - Hunt Saboteurs Save Fox. Ledbury Hunt Nov 2008


Yes and i understand that, But i can't get my head round wire across footpath's, That not ment for the hunter it''s for the horse And i've seen it myself. I've seen the other one with the terrier before Have to say I don't agree with putting dog's to ground. Good thread Nina I'm glad this one has stayed on track


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

charlie9009 said:


> I haven't read all of this thread yet, so I'msorry if I repeat anything thats been said!
> 
> I don't have a problem with fox hunting. I live in an area where fox hnting was very popular, and we used to have alot of meets around here. Since the fox hunting has been banned I believe alot of those places have been struggling, and I know that a stables that used to keep hunting horses has closed down, and another has had to struggle and find another way of earning a living, now they just manage to keep afloat. There were alot of hounds kept near us, thy have all gone, and I'd dread to think where.
> 
> ...


I think the majority of people on the forum are very caring people, and personally I highlight ALL animal cruelty, not just fox hunting.

I know that its difficult to read a thread which contains many posts, but each of your points have been addressed.

I am certainly NOT a townie and have lived in the countryside for many years, including now, surrounded by both arable and livestock farm land. As a business we meet people from all walks of life and very few support fox hunting.

If you can read through some of these threads, you may find it interesting.

Just out of interest, did you watch the video link?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Unfortunately you're in a minority I feel.
> 
> There isn't any wild countryside left, it has been managed for far too long in this country to be left to its own devices. The only reason some habitats exist is because they are managed; there have been areas that have been bought by charitable organisations and 'returned to the wild' with the only consequence being complete loss of habitat and therefore the species that exist on them, complete barren landscapes.
> 
> You might not agree with that, but that is how it is, and to keep the diverse range of species and habitats we have in this country it will always require management. Part of that enormous task of management falls on those people who hunt and shoot, amongst others, and they hold an enormous wealth of knowledge.


i agree that there isnt much wild countryside left (mans fault again), but completely disagree that the people who hunt & shoot are responsible for the diverse range of species because there isnt such a diverse range of species anymore!, for example..what about birds of prey they suffer persecution from the landowners & hunters 'protecting' game birds even though its illegal to kill them, the thing is these people are only interested in preserving game for shooting or preserving foxes for the hunt


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

charlie9009 said:


> As someone said before, why doesn't someone highlight all the puppy farmers and the conditions the dogs are kept in, and maybe something can be done about that!! And leave the traditions and ways of life for 100's of people alone!


i oppose puppy farming just as strongly as i oppose fox hunting i could never support any 'industry' built on cruelty wether its a 'tradition' or not.


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## charlie9009 (Nov 24, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> i oppose puppy farming just as strongly as i oppose fox hunting i could never support any 'industry' built on cruelty wether its a 'tradition' or not.


 I understand that you oppose puppy farming, I think everyone on this site that see's the realities of it does, that was aimed more at the general public who have no idea about it and will gladly buy puppies from such people. Also people will buy and eat veil (sp?) and the other food that was on another thread the other day (can't remember what it was called  ) with no consideration for how those animals were brought up, but when something is put in the papers as being cruel then the public start protesting about it!

I understand that people feel strongly about fox hunting. I have never liked what happens to the foxes, so have never been to watch a fox hunt (although I was taken to meets when I was younger and have seen many going past), but the foxes are still being killed. They are now being shot by farmers, and this often leads to a slower more painful death than the few seconds it normally takes a pack of hounds to kill them.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> im afraid i dont believe for a minute they retire them somewhere ?


i'm abit behind on this cos i don't read this when i leave work.. but..

most old/unsuitable hounds are rehomed if possible, but some aren't suitable to be pets and have to be put down. If noone takes them if a hunt is disbanded then they have to be put down due to costs and for the sake of the dogs really. It's the same with horses, if the owners can no longer use them and no one will buy them they will be put down

NOWHERE DID I SAY THEY WOULD BE SHOT!!! please read posts properly to whoever said i said that.

Rebecca.. hens and other food stock are killed as humanely possible (most of the time), they are caged and have no way of escaping a marauding fox.. and you think that's fine?? That not only are the hens traumatised or all are killed for the sake of it by one fox, but the farmer loses money too. that's ok is it? Don't tar all farmers and general hen keepers with the same brush, they're not all battery animals.

Marcia, have you seen sabs in action? My mate has and has recounted some very distrubing tales... one of which involved a young female rider (15/16 y/o)who was almost killed due to sabs scaring her HORSE on purpose, they targetted her because she was the youngest there and easiest to frighten. They didn't bet on the horse almost taking one of the sabs themselves out.. they're mostly vindictive idiots and deserve to be trampled imho.

charlie, what do they shoot the foxes with?? a .22!!!??? i doubt it, unless they only get a glancing blow from a SHOTGUN, i'd expect shooting the fox to be a much quicker death to hounds.


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## charlie9009 (Nov 24, 2008)

owieprone said:


> charlie, what do they shoot the foxes with?? a .22!!!??? i doubt it, unless they only get a glancing blow from a SHOTGUN, i'd expect shooting the fox to be a much quicker death to hounds.


 Shooting a fox is a much quicker death IF they get a good shot, but most foxes will be running and so will just get injured, either laming them so they are unable to hunt properly, or the wound will get infected so they will die slowly from that. (sorry about my spelling! :blushing: )


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

then whoevers shooting them needs more practice.. foxes are relatively big and it shouldn't be that hard to get a good shot unless cover is in the way and i speak from experience of shooting much smaller thing and larger things.. foxes can't be that much harder.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Badger's Mum said:


> Yes and i understand that, But i can't get my head round wire across footpath's, That not ment for the hunter it''s for the horse And i've seen it myself. I've seen the other one with the terrier before Have to say I don't agree with putting dog's to ground. Good thread Nina I'm glad this one has stayed on track


I cannot answer for all hunt saboteurs, only the two my o/h attended. As for wire intended for the horse, that is nothing short of SICK. This is why although I am a passionate advocate of animal welfare, I would never give my support to animal activist organisations.

To me, all life has a value, not just man


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## Marcia (Mar 10, 2009)

owieprone said:


> Marcia, have you seen sabs in action? My mate has and has recounted some very distrubing tales... one of which involved a young female rider (15/16 y/o)who was almost killed due to sabs scaring her HORSE on purpose, they targetted her because she was the youngest there and easiest to frighten. They didn't bet on the horse almost taking one of the sabs themselves out.. they're mostly vindictive idiots and deserve to be trampled imho.


And a few sabs have been seriously injured or killed by huntsmen or hunt supporters! A 60 year olf woman was punched in the face by a huntsman because she was filming a hunt, how the hell is that acceptable behaviour for someone who is apparently hunting 'within the law'? 
Hunt supporters have tried to run sabs over with their jeeps/landrovers etc and more often than not, they have caused serious harm 
That just shows the mentality of most hunters. And what's an even bigger smack in the mouth is that these 'men' (i use that term loosely) where not charged for attempted murder which is what it was. Even though there was video evidence, they got away with either a slap on the wrist, a fine or possibly GBH on their records


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Nina said:


> I cannot answer for all hunt saboteurs, only the two my o/h attended. As for wire intended for the horse, that is nothing short of SICK. This is why although I am a passionate advocate of animal welfare, I would never give my support to animal activist organisations.
> 
> To me, all life has a value, not just man


they're not animal lover's are theyut:Just bloody nutter's, like the people who shoot and wound animal's and leave them, they give hunting people a bad name


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Marcia said:


> And a few sabs have been seriously injured or killed by huntsmen or hunt supporters! A 60 year olf woman was punched in the face by a huntsman because she was filming a hunt, how the hell is that acceptable behaviour for someone who is apparently hunting 'within the law'?
> Hunt supporters have tried to run sabs over with their jeeps/landrovers etc and more often than not, they have caused serious harm
> That just shows the mentality of most hunters. And what's an even bigger smack in the mouth is that these 'men' (i use that term loosely) where not charged for attempted murder which is what it was. Even though there was video evidence, they got away with either a slap on the wrist, a fine or possibly GBH on their records


that is because sabs were interfereing with something that was completely legal on private land, they can cause as much damage as each other i know, i was merely pointing it out because everyone was siding with the sabs who are more often than not, on the wrong side of the law.


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## Shelley Cat Lover (Jan 23, 2009)

I'm unaware of why exactly anyone would want to participate in fox hunting for any other reason than to get pleasure from the adrenaline rush of being involved in a chase.

Get the same thrill from taking your horses running elsewhere, or better still go out and run (on foot) around a dodgy neighborhood (without your dogs).

Fox hunting doesn't keep fox numbers down and isn't effective culling. It's the sport of the cowardly and cruel. Goodness only knows what the psychological profile reads like of someone who thinks that fun=chasing an animal en-mass.

The welfare of the dogs and those that accidently cross their paths concerns me. Dogs can be vicious when part of a pack, what happens when a hunt crosses the path of a toddler? It takes one Rottweiller attack to have Daily Mail readers up in arms about 'Devil Dogs' and their lack of training. Surely a pack of Beagles on the loose tearing up small animals is a tragedy waiting to happen?

I'm not against hunting (before you pro hunters start commenting) I'm against pointless hunting. 

And please don't play the 'it's a tradition card' - 'traditionally' women couldn't vote and should stay at home raising kiddies. Your 'tradition' is just about as out-dated as that. Go out, get a hobby, get your kicks doing something else.


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## Marcia (Mar 10, 2009)

owieprone said:


> that is because sabs were interfereing with something that was completely legal on private land, they can cause as much damage as each other i know, i was merely pointing it out because everyone was siding with the sabs who are more often than not, on the wrong side of the law.


The hunt sabs won't interfere unless the hunt is hunting illegally. That's when sabs start filming and more often than not, it's not on private land. Besides, the sabs stick to footpaths etc and film from a distance if possible. They have the right to be there filming.
They have the right to intervene. Would you do nothing if you saw someone being hurt/mugged? No, you would intervene and you would have every right too.
There is no law saying that hunt sabs have to stay away and there is no law that says that they can't film it.
The local police around here agree with hunt sabs and they support sabs in every way.
Obviously, you will get the odd nutter than goes overboard and ends up doing stupid things with the best intentions but the majority of hunt sabs are decent people who film and film only. They are not violent or abusive in any way.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

As someone said before, why doesn't someone highlight all the puppy farmers and the conditions the dogs are kept in, and maybe something can be done about that!! And leave the traditions and ways of life for 100's of people alone![/QUOTE]

*Puppy farming has been highlighted many a time on here, but i fail to see how watching a fox being hounded then stread to peices (sp) the same as puppy farming.and i'm not saying puppy farming isn't cruel it is.*


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## charlie9009 (Nov 24, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> As someone said before, why doesn't someone highlight all the puppy farmers and the conditions the dogs are kept in, and maybe something can be done about that!! And leave the traditions and ways of life for 100's of people alone!


*Puppy farming has been highlighted many a time on here, but i fail to see how watching a fox being hounded then stread to peices (sp) the same as puppy farming.and i'm not saying puppy farming isn't cruel it is.*[/QUOTE]

I know puppy farming has been highlighted on here, but the public needs to be made more aware about what really goes on, like they have been with fox hunting, which is why it was banned!

As I said before, I don't like fox hunting, so never watched it. The same as I don't like, can't think what its called, what they do in spain with the bulls, so I won't watch that! There are alot of things that I don't like, but some people do. I wouldn't tell them what they can and can't do, so why should everyone else? If the animals were endangered, or anywhere near endangered then that would be different, but as someone pointed out before it hardly affects the fox population, so where is the big problem? I know it's not nice for the fox, but it's not nice for the cows, sheep, chickens and other things we eat either! It is, was, a country way of life.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

well if peta are to be believed 20,000 foxes a year in the hunt areas would be a good culling statistic, if it is true, which i doubt.

Hunt sabs NOW stay on the footpaths they didn't used to, and there are more nutters in the group than you think, on both sides. there wouldn't be an anti-sab group if the sabs stayed where they are supposed to. Also the fact that they are called sabs instead of protesters says it all to me.

the police shouldn't not openly be saying who's side they are on.. that is not their job, infact that is detrimental to their job and public opinion and their opinion can be used against them in court if needed by pro-hunters in any situation (not just hunt related) where they can say that they are being persecuted by the local police because they are hunters.....your local police need a talking too in policing policy it seems.

the problem with filming is that you then need the right of the person you are filiming to air it publically, and sabs can use the footage to find out who the hunters are and find them at their homes.. think huntingdon life sciences and the dead granny that got dug up


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

charlie9009 said:


> *Puppy farming has been highlighted many a time on here, but i fail to see how watching a fox being hounded then stread to peices (sp) the same as puppy farming.and i'm not saying puppy farming isn't cruel it is.*


 I know puppy farming has been highlighted on here, but the public needs to be made more aware about what really goes on, like they have been with fox hunting, which is why it was banned!

As I said before, I don't like fox hunting, so never watched it. The same as I don't like, can't think what its called, what they do in spain with the bulls, so I won't watch that! There are alot of things that I don't like, but some people do. I wouldn't tell them what they can and can't do, so why should everyone else? If the animals were endangered, or anywhere near endangered then that would be different, but as someone pointed out before it hardly affects the fox population, so where is the big problem? I know it's not nice for the fox, but it's not nice for the cows, sheep, chickens and other things we eat either! It is, was, a country way of life.[/QUOTE]

As a child i was raised with country ways so its not that, that i have a problem with its the way the fox is killed.as i said early if they become a problem them find a way of culling them, but to do it for sport or tradition is just not on..but thats my oppion.


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## Shelley Cat Lover (Jan 23, 2009)

Lots of things are 'ways of life' - arranged marriage, child labor, hand weaving was and still would be if Luddites had their way. Some extreme examples there, but people have learnt to change their local industries and customs when things change around them. I don't see the countryside alliance set supporting unions when car plants are closed and jobs are lost? Why not? Because common sense dictates that these people should re-skill to seek new employment.

As a society we should learn to adapt once we know a practice is wrong. This hunting is really no different to teen gangs chasing cats and tying fireworks to them (this could be the urban version - new cruel sport anyone?), because it could be said it does the same thing - keeps surplus numbers down ineffectively, is cruel and entertains a minority.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

Nina said:


> So rona, the FACTS are the ones that YOU agree with


No facts are facts where ever they come from, but they must come from an unbiased source. Not anti or those involved in the sport.
We all know how facts can be distorted 
The only reason that I put up the link that I did, was to counter in some way the extreme sites that you choose to use


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## Marcia (Mar 10, 2009)

owieprone said:


> well if peta are to be believed 20,000 foxes a year in the hunt areas would be a good culling statistic, if it is true, which i doubt.
> 
> Hunt sabs NOW stay on the footpaths they didn't used to, and there are more nutters in the group than you think, on both sides. there wouldn't be an anti-sab group if the sabs stayed where they are supposed to. Also the fact that they are called sabs instead of protesters says it all to me.
> 
> ...


I think you'll find that the police have the right to express an opinion. I am friendly with a few local policemen and i have chatted to them about this sunbject, they are entiitled as an off duty police officer to say what they feel. Maybe they have to be open minded whilst they're in their uniform but when they're not working, they can think what they like. And besides, the statistic around lincolnshire against fox hunting was something like 92%.
The horse and hound magazine isn't sold in our local tescos or our local shops because of what the locals think about it. That speaks alot from a very agricultural part of Britain. Alot of the local farmers around here don't even shoot foxes.
A local dairy farm leaves food out for foxes (leftovers from their dinners etc) and they've never had problems.
I have only come across one person up here who thinks that foxes are vermin and he does shoot them and teaches his children to shoot them  But their neighbours complained and this person had his guns taken away from him, probably because he was using them on private land, maybe because he had very young children, i don't know. This is the type of guy who thinks that meats like chicken, pork, beef etc are for common people, he likes to think that 'proper' people like himself should be eating venison, pheasent, veil, duck etc.....

Hunts sabs are legally allowed to film a hunt. If the video footage is needed in court, which is likely, then the police will seek permission from the people that have been filmed. But even then, if there's a strong case against the hunters, they can obtain a warrant to play the footage in court without permission.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> i agree that there isnt much wild countryside left (mans fault again), but completely disagree that the people who hunt & shoot are responsible for the diverse range of species because there isnt such a diverse range of species anymore!, for example..what about birds of prey they suffer persecution from the landowners & hunters 'protecting' game birds even though its illegal to kill them, the thing is these people are only interested in preserving game for shooting or preserving foxes for the hunt


Rubbish Rubbish Rubbish
And I speak from 35 years experience


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

Marcia said:


> The hunt sabs won't interfere unless the hunt is hunting illegally. That's when sabs start filming and more often than not, it's not on private land. Besides, the sabs stick to footpaths etc and film from a distance if possible. They have the right to be there filming.
> They have the right to intervene. Would you do nothing if you saw someone being hurt/mugged? No, you would intervene and you would have every right too.
> There is no law saying that hunt sabs have to stay away and there is no law that says that they can't film it.
> The local police around here agree with hunt sabs and they support sabs in every way.
> Obviously, you will get the odd nutter than goes overboard and ends up doing stupid things with the best intentions but the majority of hunt sabs are decent people who film and film only. They are not violent or abusive in any way.


Have you ever been out with the Sabs?


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Marcia said:


> The hunt sabs won't interfere unless the hunt is hunting illegally. That's when sabs start filming and more often than not, it's not on private land. Besides, the sabs stick to footpaths etc and film from a distance if possible. They have the right to be there filming.
> They have the right to intervene. Would you do nothing if you saw someone being hurt/mugged? No, you would intervene and you would have every right too.
> There is no law saying that hunt sabs have to stay away and there is no law that says that they can't film it.
> The local police around here agree with hunt sabs and they support sabs in every way.
> Obviously, you will get the odd nutter than goes overboard and ends up doing stupid things with the best intentions but the majority of hunt sabs are decent people who film and film only. They are not violent or abusive in any way.


Well said Marcia 

My o/h would NEVER put an animals life at risk. As I said previously, on the two occasions he attended, it was to distract the dogs - nothing more.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

rona said:


> No facts are facts where ever they come from, but they must come from an unbiased source. Not anti or those involved in the sport.
> We all know how facts can be distorted
> The only reason that I put up the link that I did, was to counter in some way the extreme sites that you choose to use


But the facts are facts which people wish to believe, whatever the source.

God rona, I'm beginning to confuse myself now - STOP


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## Marcia (Mar 10, 2009)

rona said:


> Have you ever been out with the Sabs?


I have, only a couple of times but the reason i havn't been anymore than that is because i simply don't have much time anymore.
I've been an observer, writing reports of what i have seen and thankfully, the couple of hunts up this way have all hunted within the law. 
I have taken my OH with me because he is as anti as i am.
One of the hunts up here has welcomed us to film them if needed, they are enjoying a bit of drag hunting every now and again.

But i spend more time with the Lincoln animal rights group, protesting against animal testing etc. But that's another thread for some other time


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

WELL SAID SHELLY CAT LOVER! great post mate..however i disagree with the car plant analogy..cars, and other transport are still needed, R&D of planet friendly vehicles needs to follow on to manufacture far more thanit is doing right now, this would negate the need for plant closures as much.

Marcia you never said it was an out of uniform opinion.. in which case yes they than can have that but being police they need to be careful who they express that too.. as it can still be used against them in court no matter where or what the context of the conversation.

The filming is fine if ALL they do is use it in court... however all hunters know that is not what it is going to be used for. it is going to be stuck on the internet for the PUBLIC to see without each persons permission.. that is illegal, the only time it is not is when it is a LARGE group shot (like those you see on the news). Any individual faces being filmed and not edited out later need the permission of the filmee to be put up ANYWHERE, THAT is the law.


I'm with rona on the definition of facts.. what others wish to believe can be false.. they can only be called a fact if they are 'in fact' true. 
One's ideas and opinions cannot be called a fact unless they are backed up by concrete evidence.


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

owieprone said:


> WELL SAID SHELLY CAT LOVER! great post mate..however i disagree with the car plant analogy..cars, and other transport are still needed, R&D of planet friendly vehicles needs to follow on to manufacture far more thanit is doing right now, this would negate the need for plant closures as much.
> 
> Marcia you never said it was an out of uniform opinion.. in which case yes they than can have that but being police they need to be careful who they express that too.. as it can still be used against them in court no matter where or what the context of the conversation.
> 
> ...


The anti's alway's hide there face's don't they


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Marcia said:


> The hunt sabs won't interfere unless the hunt is hunting illegally. That's when sabs start filming and more often than not, it's not on private land. Besides, the sabs stick to footpaths etc and film from a distance if possible. They have the right to be there filming.
> They have the right to intervene. Would you do nothing if you saw someone being hurt/mugged? No, you would intervene and you would have every right too.
> There is no law saying that hunt sabs have to stay away and there is no law that says that they can't film it.
> The local police around here agree with hunt sabs and they support sabs in every way.
> Obviously, you will get the odd nutter than goes overboard and ends up doing stupid things with the best intentions but the majority of hunt sabs are decent people who film and film only. They are not violent or abusive in any way.


If 'sabs' are such upstanding and responsible members of the public, can I ask why is it then that a lot of them cover their face?

I feel I have to add the disclaimer to my post, even though I shouldn't have to for having an opinion, but I am interested in the response, as part of the overall debate.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

Marcia said:


> I have, only a couple of times but the reason i havn't been anymore than that is because i simply don't have much time anymore.
> I've been an observer, writing reports of what i have seen and thankfully, the couple of hunts up this way have all hunted within the law.
> I have taken my OH with me because he is as anti as i am.
> One of the hunts up here has welcomed us to film them if needed, they are enjoying a bit of drag hunting every now and again.
> ...


So correct me if I'm wrong.
You have only seen huntsmen working within the law?


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## Shelley Cat Lover (Jan 23, 2009)

Cheers Owieprone. I'm not pro-plant closure btw - I work for a motor company and we have to take it on the chin and accept that industry/life/economy changes. Getting another job is sometimes not as scary as it seems -whether you breed hounds, make cars or work in a supermarket, your life is what you make it 

We've evolved as a society, lets all reflect that in what we choose to do for fun


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Bit late to replying to this, been sleeping all day (stupid swine flu).

But until I win the lottery the lot of you are welcome to buy me free range eggs and organic meat if you're concerned about what I eat, and all this moral highground BS? Well I would speak my mind but don't want to be banned


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

Badger's Mum said:


> The anti's alway's hide there face's don't they


I don't think they all do Christine, some are just ordinary people who object to hunting, which is their right.
It is only the rent a mob that seem to do this, and you could find them at any event where they think they may be able to cause trouble


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I've only just caught up woth tis thread BUT hI hve just read all 16 !!!! pages. 

I am a country lass born and bred only spent 4 years in fort in a city and tey were awful. I've seen wildlife in the extreme (did a year in the Falkland Islands) and love animals. I eat meat IF it has been farmed well and am lucky to be able to afford to do so, I getmy meat from the local butchers who knows where all his stock comes form and my eggs from the local farm (yes, the hens are definately free range). I struggle to get my MIL to stop eating battery eggs but continue the good fight. 

I agree that there can be problems with foxes - we lost fair few chickens at one point cos my brother who was in charge of shutting them away at night decided that he didn't need to do it! Can commercial chicken farms really be that insecure that they continually lose chickens on a regular basis? Although I agree that foxes can be a problem I am fully in favour of living with that problem and sorting it out withut killing them. Chicken sheds could be better at protecting the livestock inside. Sheep could be brought in side to lamb. As humans we are responsible for All of the planet and not just the parts we wish to exploit.

As a child I was anti-fox hunting with hounds, I was against hare coursing and fishing. It has taken me 20 years but at last my hubby (a keen fisherman) agrees that he shouldn't fish for fun, that fish feel pain, and unless we are going to eat it I really dislike the fact that he wants to fish and refuse to condone it. If we eat it all well and good. When we lived in Norfolk my moter politely told the master of hounds he may NOT ride across our 1 measly acre to get to the fox he could go round (apart from the mess 50 dogs and horses would have made) she would have allowed any fox to stay on the property (even with keeping chickens).

For me, personally, the tradition arguement is a ridiculous one - traditionally we had slaves, when slaving was abolished many people were put out of work and had to find other ways of making a living, traditionally we baited bears those people also had to find new work: tradition doesn't necessarily equal good. Many good traditions have died out (especially in this crazy cnetury where everything qick, despoable and commercial is considered better) that we really could still do with, why stick with one that isn't really of any worth? 

I understand that people like to ride their horses across country and run with the hounds but they don't have to kill at the end of it. The arguement that only the foxes that kill livestock are taken is a little weak. I don't noticed the boss hound saying 'hang on a minute boys, fair trial and all, (addresses fox)where were you on the night of . . . ', ! I advocated drag hunting at the age of 12 and was laughed at. I still advocate drag hunting and I think the uptake would be greater than that for fox hunting. I ride, I'd ride in a drag hunt, but you wouldn't get me anywhere near a fox hunt. Neither would I watch a bull fight, a cock fight, or a dog fight, when necessary I catch mice/rats humanely and release them away from the house, I have rescued two falcons that have injured themselves and then released them on the local farm owners land with his permission. 

I believe that the guardianship of the land and all that live on it is in our hands and we have to do all we can to minimise the impact we have on it or eventually . . . ?!


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## Shelley Cat Lover (Jan 23, 2009)

sequeena said:


> Bit late to replying to this, been sleeping all day (stupid swine flu).
> 
> But until I win the lottery the lot of you are welcome to buy me free range eggs and organic meat if you're concerned about what I eat, and all this moral highground BS? Well I would speak my mind but don't want to be banned


I missed the moral high-ground BS? When was that?

All I've seen so far in this thread was a lot of too-ing and fro-ing over right/vs wrong, Anti's vs Hunters. Fair enough, it's an emotional subject, but I think we can probably discuss it in a calmer manner.

What I'd have liked to have seen in this thread was:

A. Someone Pro Hunt actually come up with:

1. A valid reason why they hunt in this way (it's not an effective cull)
2. Why they think that giving chase to kill something is a good sport? (other than tradition)
3. Why on earth they think its a good idea to encourage a dog pack to chase (considering the high risks involved)

B. Someone Anti-hunt:

1. Display some knowledge and acceptance of other culling methods and suggest these to pro-hunters. We sadly cant prevent the culling of all animals as some do become a problem due to over breeding.

It's all about balance. Btw - I actually like foxes, despite one peeing repeatedly near my front door


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Shelley Cat Lover said:


> I missed the moral high-ground BS? When was that?
> 
> All I've seen so far in this thread was a lot of too-ing and fro-ing over right/vs wrong, Anti's vs Hunters. Fair enough, it's an emotional subject, but I think we can probably discuss it in a calmer manner.
> 
> ...


Go back a few pages and you'll find it :thumbup:

I don't like foxes either but don't agree with foxhunting


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

Shelley Cat Lover said:


> I missed the moral high-ground BS? When was that?
> 
> All I've seen so far in this thread was a lot of too-ing and fro-ing over right/vs wrong, Anti's vs Hunters. Fair enough, it's an emotional subject, but I think we can probably discuss it in a calmer manner.
> 
> ...


I'm neither anti or pro, but am interested in peoples opinions.
Also I have not seen anything which cannot be called calm, considering the subject, I think every person adding to this thread have behaved remarkable well.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

i agree with rona yet again.. i'm thoroughly enjoying being devil's advocate, usually i get folk jumping down my throat but this has been a well natured discussion so far  

oh welll then shelley, you'll know better than me  i just think it's a shame that they can't push R&D more and be far more pro-active than they are just now.. although car manu's are getting there slowly.. very.. slowly.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

owieprone said:


> it's a shame that they can't push R&D more


for a second there I though you meant a type of music - I was very confused - I am a bear of very little brain today


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

lmao .. and i thought only i was that dopey 

good post btw


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## charlie9009 (Nov 24, 2008)

I am neither for or against fox hunting, as I said I don't like it so choose not to watch or do anything towards it, but I wouldn't stop people from doing it. 

I think this has been a good debate so far, and has been very peaceful! I didn't post straight away as I expected it to get locked quite early, so well done everyone!


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## Shelley Cat Lover (Jan 23, 2009)

Maybe thats the way forward? Huge sound systems pumping out R&B so the Pro's and Anti's all start dancing and then all agree to stop hunting? 

I still got this debate as being quite impassioned (nowt wrong with that) but I didnt see it going anywhere near changing opinions/reaching conclusions. My list of 'like to see's' has some vague answers in the thread, but I dont think they cover each one yet. Whilst people admit it's for the thrill, they dont seem to be saying why thrill seeking in such a way should be accepted. 

But hey, live and let live


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## charlie9009 (Nov 24, 2008)

Shelley Cat Lover said:


> Maybe thats the way forward? Huge sound systems pumping out R&B so the Pro's and Anti's all start dancing and then all agree to stop hunting?
> 
> I still got this debate as being quite impassioned (nowt wrong with that) but I didnt see it going anywhere near changing opinions/reaching conclusions. My list of 'like to see's' has some vague answers in the thread, but I dont think they cover each one yet. Whilst people admit it's for the thrill, they dont seem to be saying why thrill seeking in such a way should be accepted.
> 
> But hey, live and let live


 If I was really pro hunt, I would answer your questions, but I'm not really up on it all. I only really know things I've heard from other people, which is not the best thing I know! My mum used to work in a stable where they kept the hunting horses, but as that's all gone now I don't know anyone I could ask. Sorry.

The music would be a good idea, but they'd probably disagree with the choice of music then!


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

I don't think you will ever get conclusions with a subject like this, there are no definite answers to any off the questions raised, it is all about opinions, and it is nice to know how people think on a subject like this.
We can all learn from debate, we don't always have to agree


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

when watching a hunt meet a couple of years ago i was amused when a very small group of "anti`s" pulled out these very noisy air horn things and started to make a din,scaring the horses witless in the process,very caring and animal loving behaviour!!ut:


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Shelley Cat Lover said:


> Maybe thats the way forward? Huge sound systems pumping out R&B so the Pro's and Anti's all start dancing and then all agree to stop hunting?
> 
> I still got this debate as being quite impassioned (nowt wrong with that) but I didnt see it going anywhere near changing opinions/reaching conclusions. My list of 'like to see's' has some vague answers in the thread, but I dont think they cover each one yet. Whilst people admit it's for the thrill, they dont seem to be saying why thrill seeking in such a way should be accepted.
> 
> But hey, live and let live





shortbackandsides said:


> when watching a hunt meet a couple of years ago i was amused when a very small group of "anti`s" pulled out these very noisy air horn things and started to make a din,scaring the horses witless in the process,very caring and animal loving behaviour!!ut:


We had that on our local boxing day mock hunt. the real hunt was afew mile's away


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

charlie9009 said:


> I understand that you oppose puppy farming, I think everyone on this site that see's the realities of it does, that was aimed more at the general public who have no idea about it and will gladly buy puppies from such people. Also people will buy and eat veil (sp?) and the other food that was on another thread the other day (can't remember what it was called  ) with no consideration for how those animals were brought up, but when something is put in the papers as being cruel then the public start protesting about it!
> 
> I understand that people feel strongly about fox hunting. I have never liked what happens to the foxes, so have never been to watch a fox hunt (although I was taken to meets when I was younger and have seen many going past), but the foxes are still being killed. They are now being shot by farmers, and this often leads to a slower more painful death than the few seconds it normally takes a pack of hounds to kill them.


maybe the general public are made more aware of the cruelty of fox hunting then because it is in the news more, but i know there are a lot of meat eaters wont eat veal of fois gras because of the extreme cruelty involved but i agree its not as publicised & its the same for puppy farming. But thats probably due to he fact that the cruelty goes on behind closed doors, its hard to hide all those people on horseback & a pack of hounds persueing one little animal across the open countryside until it gets caught & ripped apart!!

at the end of the day farmers shot foxes before the hunt was banned, if the ban is over turned they will still shoot foxes, did you see the video clip Nina showed of the hounds about to rip a fox to pieces? that poor animal was battling for its life from what would have been a horrendous death!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

owieprone said:


> i'm abit behind on this cos i don't read this when i leave work.. but..
> 
> most old/unsuitable hounds are rehomed if possible, but some aren't suitable to be pets and have to be put down. If noone takes them if a hunt is disbanded then they have to be put down due to costs and for the sake of the dogs really. It's the same with horses, if the owners can no longer use them and no one will buy them they will be put down
> 
> ...


one of the arguaments against the fox hunting ban by the huntsmen was hounds would have to be killed because they make unsuitable pets, so who has all these old & unsuitable dogs?

i showed a link of a 3yr old hound being shot & incinerated by huntsmen it was filmed by the BBC ,also a named huntsman on that link admitted unsuitable hounds were shot.


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> one of the arguaments against the fox hunting ban by the huntsmen was hounds would have to be killed because they make unsuitable pets, so who has all these old & unsuitable dogs?
> 
> i showed a link of a 3yr old hound being shot & incinerated by huntsmen it was filmed by the BBC ,also a named huntsman on that link admitted unsuitable hounds were shot.


Noush can you put it up again i missed it, i can't find it


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> Rubbish Rubbish Rubbish
> And I speak from 35 years experience


i think you only have to look at the decline in many of the raptors to see that something is wrong, near where i live in the papers not so long ago a farmer was prosecuted for killing buzzards & peregrins, theres lots of information on the internet about similar incidents....i watched this program about the persecution of hen harriers

BBC Inside Out - Hen Harriers


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Badger's Mum said:


> Noush can you put it up again i missed it, i can't find it


blimey missis!! i'll go & find it for you 

here you are....http://www.nwlacs.co.uk/hounds.htm i knowits the league against cruel sports but the BEEB is independant & the huntsman is just being honest.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

The posts after mine saying pts seemed to be talking about what i'd said either separately or in conjunction with yours i wanted to make sure that everyone knew i didn't say shot.

the local dogs to me were pts by a vet. those unsuitable to be pets may be kept for breeding or for drag hunts.. those that can be kept for pets (even oldies) will be taken up mostly by the hunters and the locals. We were asked if we wanted one or two when our local hunt was canned, but as we have cats we don't have enough room in the house for a dog as well.. and we're not in enough.. hence the cats.

i would doubt it was the norm where it didn't have to be, as a lot of the hunt dogs are already pets (certainly the case with our locals).

the reason some are unsuitable for becoming pets is that they have already been trained and so need a firm hand when reintegrating, beagles need a firm hand anyway, but hunt trained dogs are generally much harder to keep not merely due to their expected amount of exercise.

what the gov should have done is licenced the hunts for a few years to allow them to gradually lessen in number to allow those affiliated to slowly lower the number of horses etc allow the communities to re-arrange and come up with alternative ways of getting business. cutting it short so quickly didn't allow anyone time to adjust causing untold wastage of animals and peoples livelihoods.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> i think you only have to look at the decline in many of the raptors to see that something is wrong, near where i live in the papers not so long ago a farmer was prosecuted for killing buzzards & peregrins, theres lots of information on the internet about similar incidents....i watched this program about the persecution of hen harriers
> 
> BBC Inside Out - Hen Harriers


If your comment had been made 40-50 years ago, then I agree, raptors where taken to the point off virtual extinction by the land owners and keepers of the day.
There are still a few, and I emphasize A few who still believe they are above the law, but isn't that the same in all sections of life.
I have met a fair few game keepers, land owners and shoot bosses, admittedly only in my area of the country, but all without fail would be horrified at someone shooting a bird of prey, and if they did, they would never be allowed out again in the same company
The other point you made about country sports not protecting our flora and fauna, if it hadn't been for the country sports in the sixties and seventies, when the government was pushing for more and more production, all the hedgerows etc would have been grubbed out as a lot were


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> If your comment had been made 40-50 years ago, then I agree, raptors where taken to the point off virtual extinction by the land owners and keepers of the day.
> There are still a few, and I emphasize A few who still believe they are above the law, but isn't that the same in all sections of life.
> I have met a fair few game keepers, land owners and shoot bosses, admittedly only in my area of the country, but all without fail would be horrified at someone shooting a bird of prey, and if they did, they would never be allowed out again in the same company


well hearing that makes me very happy but some raptors like the hen harrier are down to just a few pairs because they are still shot, but i know you cant tar everyone with the same brush, Lord Scarborough who lives in my town bought 7 or 8 pairs of buzzards & released them on his land! i hope more land owners really are sharing the land with the predators


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> well hearing that makes me very happy but some raptors like the hen harrier are down to just a few pairs because they are still shot, but i know you cant tar everyone with the same brush, Lord Scarborough who lives in my town bought 7 or 8 pairs of buzzards & released them on his land! i hope more land owners really are sharing the land with the predators


At my place, there are a pair of buzzards that breed every year, and last year we had a visiting red kite both of which are now very common birds in certain areas.
I do think egg collectors are now the main threat to birds of prey


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> At my place, there are a pair of buzzards that breed every year, and last year we had a visiting red kite both of which are now very common birds in certain areas.
> I do think egg collectors are now the main threat to birds of prey


omg Red kites are my favourite!! i love them! ive seen them a few times when we go to Leeds show at Harewood house, we're going on Sunday it'll make my day if we see one!

i hate egg collectors!


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> omg Red kites are my favourite!! i love them! ive seen them a few times when we go to Leeds show at Harewood house, we're going on Sunday it'll make my day if we see one!
> 
> i hate egg collectors!


There are a lot of red kite along the M40, they seem to be using it as a corridor
BBC - Beds Herts and Bucks - Why Don't You - Red Kites in Buckinghamshire


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> There are a lot of red kite along the M40, they seem to be using it as a corridor
> BBC - Beds Herts and Bucks - Why Don't You - Red Kites in Buckinghamshire


wow magnificent!!!


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

noushka05 said:


> omg Red kites are my favourite!! i love them! ive seen them a few times when we go to Leeds show at Harewood house, we're going on Sunday it'll make my day if we see one!
> 
> i hate egg collectors!


Where I live, we have an assortment of birds of pray. I know there are also Red Kites, and someone in our village keeps an assortment of them to fly and show.

Their Eagle Owl is awesome


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

What I find rather worrying is that 52% of the voters on the poll support hunting, compared to the other 46% who oppose it. 

May I ask, does sport (catch-and-release) fishing come under the hunting criteria?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Nina said:


> Where I live, we have an assortment of birds of pray. I know there are also Red Kites, and someone in our village keeps an assortment of them to fly and show.
> 
> Their Eagle Owl is awesome


around us ive only seen kestrels, sparrow hawkes & buzzards, & out of the owls tawney & little, i know theres suppose to be a few peregrins but ive never been lucky enough to see one.

i love the eagle owls beautiful orange eyes x



Pleccy said:


> What I find rather worrying is that 52% of the voters on the poll support hunting, compared to the other 46% who oppose it.
> 
> May I ask, does sport (catch-and-release) fishing come under the hunting criteria?


i dunno Luke, my OH loves coarse fishing i dont think he'd say it was classed the same as hunting because he could never kill anything & wouldnt like to be classed as a 'hunter', but i dont whether the poll includes it


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Pleccy said:


> What I find rather worrying is that 52% of the voters on the poll support hunting, compared to the other 46% who oppose it.
> 
> May I ask, does sport (catch-and-release) fishing come under the hunting criteria?





noushka05 said:


> around us ive only seen kestrels, sparrow hawkes & buzzards, & out of the owls tawney & little, i know theres suppose to be a few peregrins but ive never been lucky enough to see one.
> 
> i love the eagle owls beautiful orange eyes x
> 
> i dunno Luke, my OH loves coarse fishing i dont think he'd say it was classed the same as hunting because he could never kill anything & wouldnt like to be classed as a 'hunter', but i dont whether the poll includes it


Yes they are trying too put a stop to fishing as a sport! My son and oh do it, So why's it ok too hurt a fish for sport and not a fox? That hook must hurt


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## Guinevere13 (Mar 31, 2008)

Badger's Mum said:


> Yes they are trying too put a stop to fishing as a sport! My son and oh do it, So why's it ok too hurt a fish for sport and not a fox? That hook must hurt


I don't think any kind of hunting for sport is ok.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

being a marine biologist i abhorr any time of fishing if it's not for individual eating, i.e. one fisherman catching a few fish for himself and family.

sport fishing is just cruel and serves no purpose other than to harm and scare the fish and up egos, yes the fish survives but it now has a ruddy big hole in the side of it's mouth and the stress it undergoes is quiet severe.

While i wouldn't want to put anyone out of work, i think commercial fishing needs to be sorted out globally not just in britain.. otter boards and any other drag-technique should be banned out right!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Badger's Mum said:


> Yes they are trying too put a stop to fishing as a sport! My son and oh do it, So why's it ok too hurt a fish for sport and not a fox? That hook must hurt


i dont like him fishing & he knows how i feel Christine, but at the end of the day they arnt killed & even when hes accidently caught a game fish ...for example he caught a salmon in Ireland.. he puts them back, but i still dont agree with it...never will... cos i agree with you that hook must hurt!


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## Marcia (Mar 10, 2009)

I was watching a programme a little while ago where a woman who was out fishing with her husband got a hook stuck in her hand 
She went into A&E in absolute agony and they said that the chances of infection were really high because of how dirty the hook was.

So i would imagine that the fish would be in a considerable amount of pain.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

owieprone said:


> being a marine biologist i abhorr any time of fishing if it's not for individual eating, i.e. one fisherman catching a few fish for himself and family.
> 
> sport fishing is just cruel and serves no purpose other than to harm and scare the fish and up egos, yes the fish survives but it now has a ruddy big hole in the side of it's mouth and the stress it undergoes is quiet severe.
> 
> While i wouldn't want to put anyone out of work, i think commercial fishing needs to be sorted out globally not just in britain.. otter boards and any other drag-technique should be banned out right!


My uncle's also marine biologist, at the moment he's working in the Ichthyology department at the California academy of sciences.

Recent studies have shown that the brains of fish simply do not have the complexity to feel pain (specifically they do not have the neocortex necessary to feel pain). You will find that most anglers treat their quarry with great respect, most fisheries these days insist on the use of barbless hooks and to keep the fish in the water at all times. Hooks only leave a small, pinprick hole in the fish's mouth and this will heal very quickly.

When you imagine playing a fish think of the bull-and-ring hypothesis. If the hook caused the fish any pain then surely they would come straight into the net rather than fight, the only thing they would feel is the pressure applied by the angler.

I've been a regular at one of my local fisheries for some time, the fishery employs the use of tags on each fish which contains a number. Having caught and released many of the same fish on numerous occasions some of those specimens have put on a considerable amount of weight since being first introduced. This is a clear sign that the fish are still in good condition. This is also demonstrated by several carp fisheries, where some of the resident fish are over 20-30 years old and are still perfectly healthy.


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