# colour & gender - confused!!



## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

My black tortie girl has just (hopefully) been mated by a solid blue.

The stud owner said i could get (from memory lol):

black tortie girls
cream boys
red boys
blue (both sexes)
black (both sexes)
blue tortie girls

is this all correct?

how does it work, i mean why only cream boys and not girls? 

Can someone please explain how some colours are only born in a certain gender from a particular mating? my head is bursting lol!!

Thanks in advance.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

It is horrendously complicated and I can't speak for breed peculiarities but as far as I know your stud owner is right. All reds or creams from this mating will be male. You'll only get red or cream girls by mating to a red or cream stud.


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

Be warned: you asked! 

The reason for the connection between gender and colour is that the red gene in cats is what we call 'sex linked', or carried on the X chromosome.

Firstly, it helps if you think of red cats as being red, and all the other colours as not red, to start out with.

To simplify it, males only have 1 X chromosome (because they are XY), so a male cat has the gene, or doesn't, and so is red, or isn't (like your stud boy). Females have two Xs, (being XX) and so there are *two *genes in females that may be red, or not. If neither are red, she's not red; if both are red, she's red; if one is red and one is not, she's a tortie, like your girl. With me so far? 

So, when kittens are 'made', boys will only have one X gene, and it must come from mom, because dad has given them the other Y gene. So boys' colour depends on mom: your girl has one red gene because she's a tortie, and if she gives it to her boys, they'll be red. If not, they'll be non-red. Girls will get one X gene from mom and one X from dad, and so will be a combination of both: a non-red gene from dad, and a 50% chance of getting either a red gene or a non-red gene from mom, so some will be non-red and some will be torties. Because dad doesn't have any red genes, he can't pass any on, and that's why you won't get any red girls in this litter. I really hope I'm still making sense. Here's a link explaining the red series genetics (it's about orientals, but the genetics are just about the same for any breed of cat).

Now that you've got the hang of that part, forget about it.  If you're interested in learning more about the dilute genes you can read the last paragraph, but all you really need to understand is that they change colours, usually making them look lighter. In your specific case, they will make black into blue, and red into cream, so any red boys who also have the dilute genes will be creams, and any black or black tortie girls who also have the dilute genes will be blue tories and blue selfs.

But now there's a catch: they only show up when there are two copies: one from dad and one from mom. Otherwise, they remain hidden, and we say the cat is a carrier for dilute. In this case, the stud is a dilute (blue) boy, so he can only pass on dilute genes, but your girl is different. Not knowing for sure, because I obviously don't have her pedigree, I don't know if she carries dilute or not. If she does, she'll pass it on to some of her kittens, and that's where the cream and blue come in. If she doesn't carry dilute, all your kittens will be red, black torties and black, but they will all carry the dilute gene from dad, just hidden.

Hope this helps and doesn't confuse horribly.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Atlantys said:


> Hope this helps and doesn't confuse horribly.


well it confused me, lol, totallllllly! But I thoroughly enjoyed reading it (and the link you posted from that judge person). Very interesting even if I don't understand it.

Is there a laymens term explanation of agouti and non-agouti genes???

Thanks for the read, made a pleasant change to whiskas or bozita !! :thumbsup:


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## Chez87 (Aug 11, 2010)

I love genetics!! Much easier with diagrams for the crosses, but very well explained!


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

Thank you.  I tried.

Tje, I'm sorry. I know that it can be extremely overwhelming when you first start, even though I tried to eliminate all the technical jargon. The teacher in me is suitably ashamed to have failed, and will go stand in the corner for a bit (I'll join Hobbs, I think). 

Genetics is something of a passion of mine too, Chez, as you might have noticed.  It's a lot of fun. Ever found yourself in a conversation with someone at a restaurant that ended in the two of you drawing punnett squares on napkins? No, me neither.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Is there a laymens term explanation of agouti and non-agouti genes???


Agouti is dominant so a cat will be tabby pattern even if it only has one agouti gene. A cat can be homozygous for agouti (two agouti genes) or heterozygous (only one agouti gene). A homozygous cat will only produce tabby kittens whereas a hetero can produce 50/50 tabby and non-tabby.

So if a roaming, unspayed, non-tabby girl gets pregnant and produces a litter of tabbies and non-tabbies the tom was definitely a hetero tabby. If she produces 100% tabbies then chances are the tom was a homozygous tabby with the small chance he was hetero but only passed on the agouti gene. A dominant gene is always expressed whereas a recessive gene can be carried so if you get tabbies from a non-tabby girl you can be absoloutely sure the tom will be agouti coat pattern. No point blaming next door's black and white boy.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Absolutely fascinating!! Confusing :confused1::lol: but really interesting especailly the article by the Oriental judge. I might understand it all one day :confused1:


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

lymorelynn said:


> Absolutely fascinating!! Confusing :confused1::lol: but really interesting especailly the article by the Oriental judge. I might understand it all one day :confused1:


If you're interested in more articles by John Harrison, the best resource I have found (15 articles of his, mainly on colour genetics, but some other interesting things too) is here.

The page starts with general oriental owner and breeder articles and resources (but much of it would be valuable to any breeder / cat owner). Scroll down to the last section for John's ones, which are the in-depth genetics ones over the last 30 years, including when havana and lilac were new colours, and more recent ones ranging from fawn and caramel to the smoke patterns.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Atlantys said:


> Tje, I'm sorry. I know that it can be extremely overwhelming when you first start, even though I tried to eliminate all the technical jargon. The teacher in me is suitably ashamed to have failed, and will go stand in the corner for a bit (I'll join Hobbs, I think).


Noooooooooo, it's absolutely not your fault for not explaining it properly, it's my fault for just being a bit slow on the uptake. I have two breeder friends who spend inordinate amounts of times trying to explain the basics of colour genetics to me... and I simply just don't get it. One of my friends was due kittens a few weeks ago, and of course I knew the stud and the queen... so she asked me to predict the colours the kittens could be. There were I believe 20 or 21 possible permetations, and I only got 4 or 5. She smiled politely... but I could see she wanted to shake me. lol.

But rest assured I did like your post, and I will continue reading posts in similar veins... surely at some point some of it will begin to seep in to my grey matter!! :thumbsup:


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

havoc said:


> Agouti is dominant so a cat will be tabby pattern even if it only has one agouti gene. A cat can be homozygous for agouti (two agouti genes) or heterozygous (only one agouti gene). A homozygous cat will only produce tabby kittens whereas a hetero can produce 50/50 tabby and non-tabby.
> 
> So if a roaming, unspayed, non-tabby girl gets pregnant and produces a litter of tabbies and non-tabbies the tom was definitely a hetero tabby. If she produces 100% tabbies then chances are the tom was a homozygous tabby with the small chance he was hetero but only passed on the agouti gene. A dominant gene is always expressed whereas a recessive gene can be carried so if you get tabbies from a non-tabby girl you can be absoloutely sure the tom will be agouti coat pattern. No point blaming next door's black and white boy.


so would I be right in saying that

agouti = dominant

and

non-agouti = non-dominant (or recessive)

Sorry.... I am actually quite emabrassed at how thick I am.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

You aren't thick. Yes agouti is dominant - see you got it. For a recessive trait to be expressed the cat (or anything) must carry two of the recessive genes. So a non-tabby cat always has two non-tabby genes for coat pattern. Another example - short haired coat is also dominant so long haired cats must have two long hair genes. If they had one of each then the short hair gene would 'dominate' and the cat would be short haired and 'carry' long hair.

The same thing works in humans, blue eyes and blonde hair are recessive so two brown eyed, dark haired parents may each 'carry' the recessive genes and produce a blue eyed, blonde child.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

havoc said:


> You aren't thick. Yes agouti is dominant - see you got it. For a recessive trait to be expressed the cat (or anything) must carry two of the recessive genes. So a non-tabby cat always has two non-tabby genes for coat pattern. Another example - short haired coat is also dominant so long haired cats must have two long hair genes. If they had one of each then the short hair gene would 'dominate' and the cat would be short haired and 'carry' long hair.
> 
> The same thing works in humans, blue eyes and blonde hair are recessive so two brown eyed, dark haired parents may each 'carry' the recessive genes and produce a blue eyed, blonde child.


oh my god. I actually understood that!!!!!!! :thumbup:


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Atlantys said:


> If you're interested in more articles by John Harrison, the best resource I have found (15 articles of his, mainly on colour genetics, but some other interesting things too) is here.
> 
> The page starts with general oriental owner and breeder articles and resources (but much of it would be valuable to any breeder / cat owner). Scroll down to the last section for John's ones, which are the in-depth genetics ones over the last 30 years, including when havana and lilac were new colours, and more recent ones ranging from fawn and caramel to the smoke patterns.


Thank you for the link. It is a sister website to the one I use as a Siamese breeder. My Siamese queen has orientals in her pedigree so I am interested in the genetics.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Just looked at one of the articles and there are pictures of one of my girls forebears and mentions of her grand-dam's breeder too :thumbup:


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

lymorelynn said:


> Thank you for the link. It is a sister website to the one I use as a Siamese breeder. My Siamese queen has orientals in her pedigree so I am interested in the genetics.


You're welcome. 

That's interesting: I'm currently agonizing between breeding Orientals or Siamese. After years and years of research on breeding and genetics, and line-chasing, I finally have first option on a litter with a couple of lovely girls, one of which (if everything goes right) will become my foundation queen. A couple of the girls are Siamese, and one is an Oriental, and now, just when I thought I had everything sorted out, I'm stuck. :lol:

I've always had Siamese as pets, but there's so much more to explore with the Oriental genetics, and I think I'd like to go that way, but what if I change my mind and she turns out not to carry the Siamese gene (both parents are Orientals)?

How do breeders make these kinds of decisions? :confused1:


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Atlantys said:


> You're welcome.
> 
> That's interesting: I'm currently agonizing between breeding Orientals or Siamese. After years and years of research on breeding and genetics, and line-chasing, I finally have first option on a litter with a couple of lovely girls, one of which (if everything goes right) will become my foundation queen. A couple of the girls are Siamese, and one is an Oriental, and now, just when I thought I had everything sorted out, I'm stuck. :lol:
> 
> ...


:lol:You could always buy another Siamese girl from pure Siamese lines 
I chose to go down the Siamese route with my girl as I prefer the 'point' markings to the plain Orientals. Mai Tai herself is from Siamese parents on both sides. Her breeder also mates her girls with Orientals sometimes though. 
Sorry did not mean to hi-jack OP's thread


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## sootisox (Apr 23, 2009)

We just decide to have one of each . 

I've had a similar dilemma here - I have a girl retiring next year so wanted to keep back a daughter to carry on the line. Choice of two. I agonised for weeks ... Then decided I'd just keep them both. Hubby has yet to discover this tho. 

Good luck in your choice but remember that in breeding, there's a hell of a lot of "what if" and "the one that got away". Let us know what you decide!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> oh my god. I actually understood that!!!!!!!


Always best to start out simple and build on what you know. Now you're ready to request a copy of Robinson's for Christmas  It's stood the test of time as it's reasonably simple.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Atlantys said:


> You're welcome.
> 
> That's interesting: I'm currently agonizing between breeding Orientals or Siamese. After years and years of research on breeding and genetics, and line-chasing, I finally have first option on a litter with a couple of lovely girls, one of which (if everything goes right) will become my foundation queen. A couple of the girls are Siamese, and one is an Oriental, and now, just when I thought I had everything sorted out, I'm stuck. :lol:


You need to do a little research into what sells in your area, or how other breeders are finding selling kittens from those breeds. If there are a lot of Siamese breeders or Oriental breeders in your area, you may find it difficult to sell kittens.

There is a recession on and I know some breeders are finding it difficult to sell kittens, rescues are full also. People are giving up on their pets as they have lost jobs.
It is easy to get carried away with genetics and pedigrees, but breeding is about little lives and is a hands on occupation.
You do not want to be in the situation that after all this research and money invested, you are left with kittens as you cannot sell them.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

havoc said:


> Now you're ready to request a copy of Robinson's for Christmas


anything more complex than Robinson's lemon & barley water would probably be trying to run before I can walk 

no seriously.... I will have a look in my local library and see if I can find this book. I take it "Robinson" is the author? Feline genetics being the subject matter?


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

Thanks, Lauren. I realize you're raising a very valid concern.

I'm in Denmark, in a relatively small city (it's the forth-largest one in the country, but to me, it's very small).

There is only one other Siamese / Oriental breeder here (and we're on very good terms, so there's no competition element either, but that seems to be a very British thing anyway), and there's definitely no shortage of people wanting both breeds.

Denmark also doesn't have the same 'problems' with vast numbers of moggies or mixed-breed dogs either, as most pet owners here buy from breeders. I don't think I've ever seen a mixed-breed dog here at all, but there are a few moggies around.

Also, we've gotten away relatively lightly in the recession.

In a year, when she's ready to have her first litter, I would have no problem spaying her instead, if timing (or something else) wasn't right. I'm not in a rush, and this girl would, first and foremost, be a family member. As I said, I have put years (10 of them) into doing the research and making sure that I'm in a good position (financially, vet-wise, mentor-wise, etc.) to start breeding.

ETA: Oh, and showing. Two years ago I bought a boy for showing (his breeder would have liked him go as a stud: he's very handsome, but we were a better pet home for him) so that I could get a feel for who and what were involved in the cat scene here, and to make connections. I now have a breathtaking, and breathtakingly lazy, seal point fighting for space on my laptop keyboard, while I inconvenience him by insisting on typing. 

Of course, one can never foresee the future, but I can assure you that I am going into this with my eyes wide open.


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

Tje said:


> no seriously.... I will have a look in my local library and see if I can find this book. I take it "Robinson" is the author? Feline genetics being the subject matter?


:lol: It's _Robinson's Genetics for Cat Breeders & Veterinarians_, now edited by C.M. Vella, et al, and published by Butterworth Heinemann. Mine is the forth edition, so has new editors, but the 1971 edition was by Roy Robinson, hence "Robinson's".


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

And Alison, I'm terribly sorry for taking over your thread like this. I hope you don't mind too much?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> no seriously.... I will have a look in my local library


No chance I'm afraid though you could ring the British Library and ask if they hold a copy. It's a pathetically small tome for the hefty price


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

Atlantys said:


> And Alison, I'm terribly sorry for taking over your thread like this. I hope you don't mind too much?


Don't mind at all 

Thanks for all the replies and so glad it's not just me who's both fascinated but confused by the subject. I'll get there!!


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

MY seal tortie went to a red boy & we got red boys & seal tortie girls, then we used the same boy and had red girls (which im told are 'rarer' and you can only get with a red boy & seal tortie mating) red boys & seal girls & seal tortie girls, we could have also had blue and creams but never got them.

torties are so hard to work out, but it does get easier...I think lol!


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> which im told are 'rarer' and you can only get with a red boy & seal tortie mating


:001_cool: Oddly enough, the girls I'm looking at now are both red: one Oriental and one red point Siamese. 

They are rarer than red boys because it takes two genes for red to make them instead of just one, but you can get red girls from a red to red mating, or a tortie to red mating, regardless of the colour of the tortie.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

havoc said:


> No chance I'm afraid though you could ring the British Library and ask if they hold a copy. It's a pathetically small tome for the hefty price


you're right.... just checked the online catalogue, and zilch.

In fact they dont have one single book on cat genetics, which is quite weird. Mind you maybe my Dutch search terms weren't optimal. I will be going to the library tomorrow anyway and will have a look around for something on genetics... it's ridiculous I know so little about this topic.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

robinsons cat genetics - Google Search

If you click on the link it previews the first 27 pages


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Atlantys said:


> Denmark also doesn't have the same 'problems' with vast numbers of moggies or mixed-breed dogs either, as most pet owners here buy from breeders. I don't think I've ever seen a mixed-breed dog here at all, but there are a few moggies around.


This fascinates me even more than the genetics stuff... but at least this stuff I can understand. I would love to pick your brains sometime about what the feline rescue situation is like in Denmark. I am a Brit, but currently live in Holland, and I too see many differences in attitudes towards animals in these two countries. I lived for a while in Sweden, and although I wasn't heavily involved in feline rescue there, I did get the impression that if there was a "rescue problem" in SE, it was nowhere near as a big a problem as NL has, which in turn seems to have a lesser problem than the UK has.

I loved to read that most Danish pet owners buy from breeders!! Well done the Danes.

Would it be ok to PM you sometime ??

(and Alison Dalziel... my apologies too for sending your thread off on all sorts of tangents )


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

Tje said:


> I would love to pick your brains sometime about what the feline rescue situation is like in Denmark.
> 
> Would it be ok to PM you sometime ??


Sure. Although I'm not sure if I could be all that much help to you (I'm not Danish, although I have lived here for the last three years), and I'm not involved with rescue at all, but I could get information if you would like it.


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## frizzy67 (Aug 1, 2010)

> The same thing works in humans, blue eyes and blonde hair are recessive so two brown eyed, dark haired parents may each 'carry' the recessive genes and produce a blue eyed, blonde child.


Sorry for going off on another tangent but this stuff fascinates me,
does this mean that although 2 dark haired brown eyed parents can have blue eyed/blonde hair children can 2 blue eyed/blonde hair have a brown eyed/hair child and wot about 2 blue eyed dark haired parents can they have brown eyes/dark hair ?:


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Eye color 
This is interesting


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

Atlantys said:


> Not knowing for sure, because I obviously don't have her pedigree, I don't know if she carries dilute or not.


How do i find out from her pedigree if she carries dilute?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> can 2 blue eyed/blonde hair have a brown eyed/hair child


No, though I kept it a deliberately simple example and it doesn't always happen in black/white.

Take one example, the blue eyes and imagine there are only blue or brown eyed people in the world. Everybody has two genes for each characteristic, one from each parent. Blue is recessive which means if someone has one blue gene and one brown gene then they will be brown eyed as the brown gene dominates the blue one. A dominant characteristic is always expressed and can't be carried whereas a recessive characteristic can be carried ie it's there but hidden. If this person has a child they may pass on either the brown or the blue gene and if the other parent also passes on a carried blue gene then the child will be blue eyed.

For a recessive charateristic to be expressed there must be two recessive genes. A blue eyed person only has the genes for blue eyes so can only pass on the blue gene.


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

alisondalziel said:


> How do i find out from her pedigree if she carries dilute?


Look at the breed numbers of her ancestors. If one of her parents was a dilute colour then she's definitely a carrier. If not, look further back, and if it's there then there's a chance it might have been passed down.

Of course, dilute is a fickle thing: it can stay hidden for a long time and pop up unexpectedly, but chances are, with this mating, if your girl carries dilute you'll know about it.

If you PM me her pedigree I'll work out the exact chance of her carrying the gene for you.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

ok ladies, I love genetics but i'm not hot on it!


My current foster litter has one kitten who is a definate smoke longhair... mother is a tortie DSH.

Now i understand where the longhair has come from... but smoke? 

help?


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

Well, the short answer is that the cat has the silver, or melanin inhibitor gene. All the kittens must have it, as it's dominant, but it expresses variably, so might be almost invisible.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Atlantys said:


> Well, the short answer is that the cat has the silver, or melanin inhibitor gene. All the kittens must have it, as it's dominant, but it expresses variably, so might be almost invisible.


Thankyou, yes i do think the others have it, but its almost unnoticable. The smoke kitten though..... he is truelly YUM!

If i had the room, and money to support him, he wouldnt be going anywhere!


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

You're welcome.  But you realise the consequence of talking about such a beautiful baby boy is that now I want to see him too? :lol:

Do you have a picture?


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

Atlantys said:


> Look at the breed numbers of her ancestors. If one of her parents was a dilute colour then she's definitely a carrier. If not, look further back, and if it's there then there's a chance it might have been passed down.
> 
> Of course, dilute is a fickle thing: it can stay hidden for a long time and pop up unexpectedly, but chances are, with this mating, if your girl carries dilute you'll know about it.
> 
> If you PM me her pedigree I'll work out the exact chance of her carrying the gene for you.


I can't PM the ped as i only have it on paper and not on my PC.

Her dad is 30d, mum 21 so no dilute there.

Grandparents are 16, 16,16 and 15.

Great Grandparents are 16, 28, 16, 15, 16, 15, 16 & 15.

Great Great Grandparents are 16, 16, 17, 16, 16, 16, 15, 15, 16, 16, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 15.

Great Great Great Grandparents are 17, 22a, 16, 28, 17, 17, 16, 16, 17, 22a, 16, 28, 17, 21, 16, 15, 17, 22a, 16, 28, 17, 21, 16, 15, 17, 22a, 16, 28, 16, 15b, 36, 16.

Sorry for all the info lol 
Definetely lots of dilute in the pedigree but not sure how it will impact on the colours she will have.


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

Hang on a second: grandparents are 16, 16, 16, 15? Are you sure?


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

grandparents of my girl are 16, 16, 16 & 15 yeah thats defo right.


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

So that's a blue x blue mating to get the red sire?  Can't be. 

Could we be working with different breed numbers?

In your pedigree the relevant breed numbers I've got are:

30d: red
21: black tortie
16: blue
15: black
28: blue-cream tortie
17: cream
22a: blue tortie and white
15b chocolate
36: smoke


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

yes those breed numbers are correct.

not im getting confused aaaaaaaaa.

the red spotted is my girls dad so i dont have his pedigree.

The grandparents of my girls dad (the red spotted) are 2 blues!!

OH YES im with you now!! Hmm that is very strange, a mistake do you think?

Theres no more red in her pedigree as you can see. I really dont know!!

I shall email her me thinks and let u know!!


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

As far as I can tell, everything in the pedigree looks correct (in the furthest generations) until you get to the parents generation, which doesn't match up. Both your girl's sire and dam can't have been produced by the cats of the previous generation.

Blue x blue can't make a red boy, and blue x black can't make a black tortie.

It's like two pedigrees were spliced together at that point. I don't know what's going on with this pedigree, but whatever the mistake is, I hope you get it sorted out.

Is the breeder of your girl also the owner of the stud you took her to?



alisondalziel said:


> I shall email her me thinks and let u know!!


Looking forward to it.


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

The breeder of my girl is not the owner of the stud i used no, although they are friends.

I have sent an email and will post the info i get on here when i get a reply but yes i can see there is something wrong there...


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

alisondalziel said:


> The breeder of my girl is not the owner of the stud i used no, although they are friends.


I was wondering why the stud owner didn't look at the pedigree and pick this up. I thought if she had bred the girl originally that she maybe knew it off by heart and so hadn't bothered looking at it, but that's not the case, obviously.

I would have thought that she would have looked at it to make sure there weren't any lines with problems, or even just to tell you what colour kittens to expect, especially what the likelihood of dilute is.

Anyway, obviously this is not the right pedigree for your cat. Is that a problem for you? I mean, were you attached to the lines, or were the genes you thought she carried relevant to your breeding programme?

You must be upset. I'm sorry. :frown:


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

The stud owner did look at the pedigree but didn't say anything.

She told me to expect the colours i mentioned in my very 1st post on this thread.

I don't feel upset about it, just a bit confused as to why it seems wrong.

Very very strange how my girls' father is THE ONLY red in the entire pedigree!! He is her main stud, the only one she used at the time my girl was born and long before then.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

So many breeders, even ones who have breeding a long time do not know their genetics, so I am not at all surprised that a breeder would not pick up on such an error.

Some breeders rely on hearsay or snippets of misinformation picked up from other breeders, and do not go and look things up for themselves either.



> Blue x blue can't make a red boy


I have heard some torties are missed and wrongly classified, if they only have a very small patch of red/cream or only a few hairs perhaps. They would then be capable of producing red/cream boys or tortie girls. However even if the mother was a tortie then as a blue/cream she would be hard pushed to produce a red boy with a blue mate, he would be cream.


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

Very true. It wouldn't be the first time. But in that case, surely you would have re-registered the mother's colour?

Anyway, the fact that _both _of the parents match Alison's kitten (but _neither _of them match the rest of the pedigree), and that all the rest of the matings in the pedigree are perfectly plausible, to me indicates some kind of mistake.

Not having Breeder's Assistant I'm not sure, but is it possible this is just a computer programme error?


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

alisondalziel said:


> The stud owner did look at the pedigree but didn't say anything.


Hmm. Well, I'm sure she won't do that again. :lol:



> She told me to expect the colours i mentioned in my very 1st post on this thread.


Yes, and those colours were right for the mating. I'm sure she must have just glanced at the pedigree briefly and not thought about it.



> I don't feel upset about it, just a bit confused as to why it seems wrong.


Oh, that's good. I'm glad you're not upset. Hopefully you'll find out soon what the problem is.



> Very very strange how my girls' father is THE ONLY red in the entire pedigree!! He is her main stud, the only one she used at the time my girl was born and long before then.


No, it's quite possible that he's the only red boy in the pedigree if you've had tortie (or even red or cream) girls further back. He might just have been the only red boy used for breeding in the programme, but he wouldn't have been the only one produced, if you know what I mean?

(I was going to point out the 5 blue-cream torties, the 8 creams and the 4 blue-tortie and whites in your pedigree, but then I realised again that the pedigree doesn't belong to your girl. :lol: Anyway, it is still plausible to have only that one red boy in the pedigree).


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

It's most unlikely to be a programming error in BA. The system does rely on users inputting the correct data though and I'm guessing (though I've never looked) that the cat's reg number would be used as the primary key. A string of figures are very easy to misread or mistype when you're reading them from a pedigree. It's the thing I check, check again and then check one more time every time as it is the unique identifier.


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

No news i'm afraid 

The breeder didn't get back to me.

I had a word with the stud owner and she said it was nothing to worry about.

I suppose it has no bearing on this mating anyway?

The pedigree was created using PA.


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

Oh dear. I hope she gets back to you soon.

Well, it is something to worry about if you want to find out who is actually in your girl's pedigree, if you wanted to be able to trace a health problem back, for example, or find out if she could have dilute kittens or not, so it could have a bearing on this litter. For example, if she doesn't carry dilute (and now you don't know _what _she carries), you would have known that mating her to this blue boy wouldn't produce any dilute kittens.

Also, is her registration valid if her pedigree is wrong? How are you going to register her kittens and make a pedigree for them if you don't know who their ancestors are?

I think a correct pedigree is an extremely important thing for a breeder to have.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

It's most likely that someone has missed out a whole column of data or transposed one somewhere down the line. As long as the sire and dam have been correctly recorded for registration purposes at every generation then it would be easy enough to find where a mistake has happened on this particular printout.


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

Yes, I'm sure it would be very easy to fix, but I really don't agree that it's "nothing to worry about ... [and] has no bearing on this mating anyway."


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

i'm irritated that she still hasnt got back to me.

she is a reputable breeder.

all i know is that her parents are correct, i dont know any more than that.

Im starting to think that my girl definetely is pregnant so time will tell.

I was hoping for at least one dilute kitten.


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

Congratulations.  I hope she really is pregnant.

And (hopefully soon) when your breeder does get back to you, I hope it turns out that your girl does carry dilute. It would be nice to have a blue/cream/both kitten. They're _so _pretty.

I'll keep my fingers crossed.

ETA: Have you tried tracing her parents in a database like Pawpeds? I don't know if there is a better one for your breed, but although it wouldn't be an 'official' pedigree until you get it confirmed by the breeder, it would give you something to go by. If your girl's parents are in there, then at least you could find out who her real ancestors are and if there's dilute in there.


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

still no reply 

i just checked pawpeds and yes the breeder does have cats on there but none that are in her pedigree!! typical 

i also adore dilutes (blue-cream being my ultimate fav).


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

Ack! :001_huh:

Shame, I'm sorry. Well, it was worth a try. Lets just hope you get a reply soon.


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

Still no reply but i do have news!!

On checking the website of the breeder i realised she has some of the parents of the cats on there.

I have found out the following;

* Grandmother (sire's mum) is not a blue but is something else lol, looks like a tabby of some kind (no colour listed on the site).

* Grandfather (dam's dad) is not a blue but is cream.

* Great grandfather (sires side) is not blue but is a red tabby.

* Great grandmother (sires side) is not black but is a brown tortie tabby.

That's all the info i could find but obviously that makes the further back generations incorrect too. 

Just shows what a little research can do!!!

Im quite angry now that she gave me an incorrect pedigree when all the time some of the "evidence" was right there on her website!!


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

Unfortunately there are breeders who win lots of shows etc who are clueless about genetics for colour etc. And I have before seen kittens produced in litters which are impossible if the pedigree is correct - a red tipped kitten from a golden tipped (genetically black) and black tipped silver?? .

Have you tried telephoning the breeder Alison? I do hope you manage to resolve this!


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

Very confusing have assumed your girls dad is the red spotted stud boy on breeder's site. His parents are a blue and a brown tortie spotted tabby - hence him being a red spotted. He does carry dilute but only a 50 percent chance he has passed onto your girl. Does your girl's pedigree have the right names on just wrong breed numbers? PM me the mother's name if you like.


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

I sent her another email this afternoon outlining the info i found out myself.

The names are wrong as well as the numbers.

The mother i believe to be Rocadanne Iona.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Alison, I've been reading this thread... sorry you're having this problem, it's so [email protected] that the breeder didn't jump to it to rectify things and for them to say "it doesn't really matter" is ludicrous.

If the mother is the cat you think it actually is then I know (of) the breeder well and know the breed lines very well too - have you suggested to her that you'll contact GCCF in an effort to get it sorted? She must surely realise that in giving you an incorrect pedigree that you, in turn, will be supplying owners of the kittens you breed an incorrect pedigree also.

I do hope you get it sorted. It's really not good enough, to say the least, that she's appearing to fob you off.


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> Alison, I've been reading this thread... sorry you're having this problem, it's so [email protected] that the breeder didn't jump to it to rectify things and for them to say "it doesn't really matter" is ludicrous.
> 
> If the mother is the cat you think it actually is then I know (of) the breeder well and know the breed lines very well too - have you suggested to her that you'll contact GCCF in an effort to get it sorted? She must surely realise that in giving you an incorrect pedigree that you, in turn, will be supplying owners of the kittens you breed an incorrect pedigree also.
> 
> I do hope you get it sorted. It's really not good enough, to say the least, that she's appearing to fob you off.


Hiya.
It wasn't the breeder that said it didnt matter, that was the stud owner that i used who is friends with the breeder.

She emailed me this morning and said she will send me out a new pedigree over the weekend so we shall see how that goes.

Hopefully it will be correct and that will be the end of it.

I would like to express my thanks to the lovely people who have helped me out regarding this, thankyou.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Ah, that's great news  I know from experience it can be easy to make mistakes with pedigrees. Happened to me once but fortunately one of the kittens had gone to a breeder/friend who knew the pedigree as well as I did (or should have done lol, but in my defence it was an error when merging the pedigrees on my pc). Still had the embarrassing task of ringing all the other kittens' owners to ask them to return the pedigrees


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

You're more than welcome. 

I'm _so _glad it'll be sorted out soon. I would be very curious to know how well it matches up with the 'hypothetical' pedigree, when you do get the info.


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

Atlantys said:


> You're more than welcome.
> 
> I'm _so _glad it'll be sorted out soon. I would be very curious to know how well it matches up with the 'hypothetical' pedigree, when you do get the info.


I'm not sure if i will get a paper copy or an email one.

If it's on my computer i will email you a copy. 

Glad its hopefully being sorted.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I see the father of your girl is Blood Group B, do you know the blood group your girl and her mate?
As that can be an issue for the kittens, but you probably know that.


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

Yes i do know that.

My girl has been blood grouped as has her mate.


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