# Bogus Breeder



## DawnJoy (Oct 2, 2013)

Does anyone know my rights?

I purchased a 5 generation Pedigree Chihuahua(kennel club registered) a year ago. The breeder, of twenty years, said she bred the mother and the father and were from a line of champions.
It became increasing visible that she is not a Pedigree Chihuahua, so i had a DNA test done. One parent is indeed cross bred, as is its parents and grandparents. 
I paid £1000 for her and although i wouldn't part with her, i have been well and truly conned and i want to get my money back....


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## AlexArt (Apr 25, 2010)

Have you contacted the KC firstly to determine wether the documents you have are real and the breeder is who they say they are?, they should also be able to give you advice on what route to take. I would also speak to The Chi Club - they may have heard of this breeder and it might stop others from going to this breeder in future. I would have thought you'd have to go to the small claims court, the fact you have proof that the dog was sold not as described is great, wether the time elapsed since you bought the dog has been too long I don't know. 

Have you contacted the breeder? - what was their response to the DNA test? - try threatening going to the papers or something if they don't want to know, or even get a solicitor to write up a letter saying you will take further action if a refund of some sort is not given - usually that will make people cough up!

I would have thought, if the time passed isn't too long, you should be entitled to a full refund under the sale of goods act, but since you do not want to part with the dog, understandably, then you may have to settle for a partial one - if it were me I'd ask for the value of a crossbred puppy taken off, say £250 and the remaining £750 returned to you as the dog was sold under false pretences, I would have thought it's classed as fraud. 
You may find if the 'breeder' does not want to give you any money at all back and it may cost you more to get the money back than you'd actually get! In which case I'd enjoy the dog as a lovely pet and chalk it down to experience - it doesn't make any difference to the actual dog in any way other than if you had bought her to show or breed, I'm sure plenty of folk have dogs who are not what they were sold as! 
Any pics?


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

As AlexArt suggested - your first step is to contact the breeder.

In writing. Via recorded/signed for delivery.

Hard as it is, do NOT get personal, offensive, abusive...but remain factual, brief and polite. State your premise ( that the dog you bought from her is not purebred), delineate your objective ( a refund) and attach a copy of the DNA results.

This will get the ball rolling. For all you know your dog wasn't the result of concious deception but what breeders refer to as an "oops" litter . Not desirable, lf course, but not exactly unheard of if the breeder keeps more than one breed on the premises.

Not sure whether dogs fall under the "sales of goods" act, but even if they don't - although this link suggests that they do :The law relating to commercial and private sellers of dogs. - as money has been exchanged and there is a contract between the 2 parties, if you paid x for a purebred dog and the dog turns out NOT to be purebred, you are entitled to a refund. But please note that IF the breeder refunds you, she is entitled to have her dog back.

So please think carefully whether this is really what you want.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

DawnJoy said:


> Does anyone know my rights?
> 
> I purchased a 5 generation Pedigree Chihuahua(kennel club registered) a year ago. The breeder, of twenty years, said she bred the mother and the father and were from a line of champions.
> It became increasing visible that she is not a Pedigree Chihuahua, so i had a DNA test done. One parent is indeed cross bred, as is its parents and grandparents.
> I paid £1000 for her and although i wouldn't part with her, i have been well and truly conned and i want to get my money back....


Can you post a picture of the dog?

Did you meet the Parents of the pup?

Unfortunately, some people think that if a Chi grows to be bigger than a handful, they are not pedigree. Not true at all.

Also, the dna test...what kind was it. I've heard of people in the show world having their toy breed dna tested (just out of curiosity) and it's come back with huge breeds in the results...when clearly...that is not the case! I think these were the over the counter type dna tests kits (this was some time ago I read this, so these tests may be more reliable now, not sure). Presumably, the type where you have a blood test taken at the Vets, would be more precise though whether 100% accurate, I am not sure.

A bit more information would help us to help you.

If the Breeder refuses to refund you, then it would be lengthy court proceedings and unless the DNA test is totally reliable and the results were accepted by the Court, you could end up being a lot worse off financially.


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## kaiyaakita (Feb 24, 2010)

i would try the kennel club route get as much info from them as poss. As for the dna test I have heard these are pretty unreliable so wouldn't trust them. What did the breeder actually say when you approached them? Not sure how you would stand after a year.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

kaiyaakita said:


> i would try the kennel club route get as much info from them as poss. As for the dna test I have heard these are pretty unreliable so wouldn't trust them. What did the breeder actually say when you approached them? Not sure how you would stand after a year.


I would think the OP would be in a good position, even after a year but ONLY if the test is guaranteed to be 100% accurate. Otherwise, where there is doubt, I would think the Court would find it hard to press the Breeder into refunding the money; if they continued to swear the pup was purebred.

Also, somebody mentioned £250 being reasonable for the price of the pup, if it is accepted that it isn't purebred. Where the Chi breed is concerned, some of the "designer" *cough cough* breeds (aka crossbreeds) sell for more than purebred Chis....such as "Chugs" ... I have seen them being sold for in excess of £600....and they went like hot cakes  Leaving KC registered purebred Chis still being advertised for less money (males) weeks later.

Obviously, we don't know the supposed breed this pup was bred with but if it is JRT, then yes, they can go for as little as £250 up to £400 when I last had a nosey at the free ads.


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## kirksandallchins (Nov 3, 2007)

If it is a long coat Chihuahua, I believe some breeders crossed smooth coats with other toy breeds to produce more long coated ones, so DNA tests may show crosses to other breeds even if it was generations ago.

On The Wonder of Dogs on BBC2 a few weeks ago they DNA tested some dogs and came up with some unusual breeds in the dogs tested - including Rat Terrier (an American breed rarely if ever seen in the UK). It made me wonder how useful these DNA tests were


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

A lot of pedigree dogs can grow up looking 'faulty' and I would certainly not trust DNA tests from what I hear of them so I think you would have a problem in court.
do you have photos of your dog so that chi owners on here can give their thoughts on it.


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## DawnJoy (Oct 2, 2013)

Thank you everyone that has taken time to give me some good advice. 
I have been in contact with the kennel club who advised me to get the DNA test. It is a reputable DNA test company. They didn't know what breed she was and it came back she was Chihuahua purebred on her fathers side and that her mother (who was bred by the breeder was a cross breed as was both the grandparents .......
The KC also put me onto trading standards who have informed me it does come under sale of goods act. I sent the breeder numerous letters included recorded delivery and emails but as yet have had no reply from any letter. I said i wanted £800 refund as £200 was a fair price for an unidentified cross breed. https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd....320/1381506_10151891693309604_941355113_n.jpg


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## Ann Elizabeth (May 12, 2013)

Just read this thread through and wanted to wish you luck with sorting this out with the breeder! I don't know much about Chi's but I've never seen one who looks like your girl, nonetheless she looks like a lovely girl.


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## BeauNoir (Sep 16, 2012)

Hate to say it, but yours does look the spit of my mother in law's 'jack-a-chi'. First cross Jack Russell and Chihuahua. I'm not a breeder or anything so don't take my word for it, it's just how it looks to me.

I hope it all gets sorted.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

Definitely looks to have Jack Russel in her, what a shame you have to go through this, good luck, although you love her,£1000 is a lot to pay for a x breed, I wonder if she has had other complaints


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

BeauNoir said:


> Hate to say it, but yours does look the spit of my mother in law's 'jack-a-chi'. First cross Jack Russell and Chihuahua. I'm not a breeder or anything so don't take my word for it, it's just how it looks to me.
> 
> I hope it all gets sorted.


Must admit that was the first thing I though of too when I saw the photos a Jack Russell/Chihuahua mix.

They are a popular cross as it happens so if the mother was a cross, its possible perhaps that she was a Jack Russell x Chihuahua herself.


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## DawnJoy (Oct 2, 2013)

Ha Ha neither have i


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## DawnJoy (Oct 2, 2013)

I have added a couple of photos- would appreciate your views?


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Tbh, I can't really see the terrier in her  to me, she looks like a big non standard 'deer headed' chi...

So the DNA test said she's half chi, (sites side bein ped) an the mother was 25% this, 25% that, 25% other and 25% goodness knows what? Please don't take this the wrong way, but would you no have noticed such a mix of a mother when viewing the litter?

She's a beautiful girl anyway, and I hope ou get this sorted- what a horrible situation for the breeder to put you in!!


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

certainly got some jr in her


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

I see JRT as well, did the mother look different to you? I hope something can be sorted, not fair at all.


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

My understanding was that those DNA tests were not suitable to be used on 'purebred' dogs as it threw out weird results ?


Could you link me to the company used?


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Jackahuahua - I'd put money on it.


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## DawnJoy (Oct 2, 2013)

I was shown 'a mother' and 'a father' . Thinking back they were hustled in and out of the kitchen without me being allowed to follow....


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

But the way I read it was that the mothers parents would have been mixes as well for the results to be reliable- that (to me) forsnt seem right; you would notice that the mum was a mutt! (Nothing wrong with mutts, but the offspring of two different mixes is a mutt/mongrel)


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## Ann Elizabeth (May 12, 2013)

DawnJoy said:


> I was shown 'a mother' and 'a father' . Thinking back they were hustled in and out of the kitchen without me being allowed to follow....


When Lily had her puppies, Max (Sire) was at my sons home, and I brought him here so the potential new owners could see him and mum and tbh I wanted to see how people were with my older dogs as well as the puppies. If my older dogs hadn't been ok with them they wouldn't have been able to have one of the babies- oops puppies! And they were encouraged to come back and visit as many times as they wanted, took ages but was worth it as both puppies are in great new homes from which I get regular updates (and I only sold two as other two stayed in the family) what I'm trying to say is that I find it very dodgy that you weren't allowed to interact with sire and dam and maybe your experience can serve as a warning to others. 
I do wish you the very best of luck getting your money back, please let us know how you get on.


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

Can Wisdom Panel™ Insights be used for a purebred dog?
Wisdom Panel Insights is intended for use on dogs that are mixed-breed to help determine their breed history. The test is specifically designed to look for the combination of ancestral breeds in mixed-breed dogs. Where pure breed dogs are concerned, most often the report will simply indicate the pure strain of the breed in question. However, although our sample database covers 170+ breeds and comprises more than 8,700 samples in total, there are several cases in which pure breed dogs may not be reported as such by Wisdom Panel Insights test. For instance, if the breed is not or was not bred within the continental US or United Kingdom, then we may not pick up the breed signature, as foreign lines often have very different genetic signatures. In addition, if there has been a very isolated breeding line for the pure breed, then we may not have enough coverage of that breed's gene pool to identify the dog as purebred.
For these reasons, *we do not advertise or recommend the use of Wisdom Panel Insights as a test for confirming the purity of a purebred dog.* This is due to the fact that Wisdom Panel Insights is specifically designed to find multiple breeds in an analysis, under the assumption that the dog it is testing has more than one breed in its mix. A test to determine breed purity would need to be designed and its accuracy validated for that purpose.

FAQ's

Can you confirm that my dog is purebred? The DNA Breed Identification test is designed for the sole purpose of identifying breeds found in the genetic composition of mixed breed dogs The test is specifically designed to look for the combination of ancestral breeds in mixed-breed dogs. If only one breed is detected in the dog it could be that the dog is purebred. However, the test can only identify breeds that are on the database and therefore, there could still be an undetected breed in the dog due to it not being on the database. *For these reasons, we do not advertise or recommend the use of this test for confirming the purity of a purebred do*g. A test to determine breed purity would need to be designed for that purpose and its accuracy validated.

What Breed Is My Dog - FAQ on our Dog DNA Test Kit and Dog DNA Testing |

I would love to know what test you did use?
was it this one?
Establish if your dog is a true purebreed. Official certification of over 150+ breeds

which seems to be the only one of its kind

I need am very dubious of these tests because dogs are mixtures, we know they are its only a matter of how far back the line we go before we find them and we know that DNA is a relatively new and much yet undiscovered science
We are a 50% match to a banana, 98% to a chimp
So when they are talking about your dog is 50% this 50% that they mean only the identifying markers that they have discovered *so far* that contribute to breed characteristics


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

and after all, if i was to test my Poppet (who is VERY MUCH a pure yorkie) it would read as yorkie, but also as 'paisley terrier' 'skye terrier' and if they had a marker 'the scotch terrier' -not the scottie i might add, but rather a specific TYPE of dog originally used as a mine ratter which then went on to become foundation stock for the relitively young (only about 150-180yrs old) breed that i adore with all my heart!

so try to take the results with a pinch of salt!

(but babycham explained it perfectly!)


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

If she has JR in her then I'd say she's 3/4 chihuahua and 1/4 JR because she looks nothing like our Teebs who is half and half and I saw both parents, dad a Chi and mum JR. Your girl looks far more delicate and fragile to have much JR in her IMO, you can clearly see it in Teebs though and he doesn't have a head that shape either. She looks like a poorly bred Chi to me, my ex OH has one and he looks very similar to your girl. I would have thought if she had champion parents that her build would have been different, have seen some that are 'squatter' if that makes sense. 

I can't see the JR link much, if at all - her and Teebs are poles apart in looks even though he's on the smaller side of the 'jackchi' scale. 
She's delightful though but I understand your anger.


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## DawnJoy (Oct 2, 2013)

I did use Wisdom test..... The test seems to be very specific though showing which parents are not pedigree. Her father and his parents/grandparents are all 100% chi. On the mothers side, it clearly shows she is a cross breed. It shows her mother was a pedigree bur her father was not. The grandparents it shows are pedigree on one side and both crossbreed on the other. 
If noodle was a purebred, why woukd it not have shown that? Looking at the photo it seems obvious she is NOT a chi pedigree. Her legs are too long, her ears dont stand up, her nee is too long, her back goes on for ever... That said she has the most adorable temperament... Love her loads, but cant let this go....... I thought i had been so careful!


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## DawnJoy (Oct 2, 2013)

One more point on the Wisdom test- I understand the uncertainty of it being able to determine the breed of your dog which is not what the test is designed for, however it is to determine if your dog is a cross breed in the last 5 generations. The fact that it dosn't show way back that noodle has crossbreeds in her ancestry but in fact very close to home with her mother. And finally the fact that the breeder has made no attempt to refute the report despite numerous letters and emails leads me to believe her admission of guilt- she new exactly what she was selling me!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I wouldn't even guess what percentage of *something* else you may have in there, because when you cross breed, you can't know how much of each parent will come through. When you breed pedigrees you're never certain if they'll look more like mum or dad even, but you obviously have an idea with a proven stud dog, what he's producing, and if you've researched lines you'll know loosely what to expect and (of course) they aren't going to generally surprise you with some long distant throwback to a different colour or shape. 

I know it's too late for the OP, but I hope this thread serves as a warning to always, always find a good breeder that you can trust implicitly. You're buying a living, breathing creature, and some people are willing to exploit both the dogs and us.


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

Have to say that even if the DNA test is unreliable the dog in question isn't a full Chihuahua, looks very much like Jack R x Chihuahua. They usually go for around £300 so for the breeder to not only lie to you but charge you £1000 which imo is what you should expect to pay for a show potential pup is just pure cheek. 

I'm sure you love her just as much but I'd be warning people about the breeder and be taking her/him to small claims court.


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

shetlandlover said:


> Have to say that even if the DNA test is unreliable the dog in question isn't a full Chihuahua, looks very much like Jack R x Chihuahua. They usually go for around £300 so for the breeder to not only lie to you but charge you £1000 which imo is what you should expect to pay for a show potential pup is just pure cheek.
> 
> I'm sure you love her just as much but I'd be warning people about the breeder and be taking her/him to small claims court.


I agree - she looks like a Jack x Chi to me too - husband even agrees. The tail is wrong as well as the shape and the ears. I feel for you. 

She is lovely though xx


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Looks like there is some Jack russell in there to me . Let us know how you get on .


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

what did it tell you was in the mix? was it a terrier of some sort?
as i say, i can't really see terrier in her, but personally i've seen so many bad examples of chis and YTs that i don't bother taking leg length, body length or tail carriage into consideration when i'm told its a pedigree; given the variation in Well-bred ones i wouldn't be surprised at some of the byb bred ones (like dexter in my sig)!

that was a horrid thing for the :cursing: of a breeder to do! would you consider taking legal action?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

the head looks very chi but the body is very similar to my old collie cross jack russel that I had years ago. It looks totally wrong shape for a chi.


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## lipsthefish (Mar 17, 2012)

I'm not sure if this is of any help but Angel is a Chihuahua x JRT, her Mam is Chihuahua x JRT and her Dad is Chihuahua. I haven't got many decent photos at the moment as I have a new laptop but here are a couple that show her body shape and head.


















Your little one is beautiful  but I can understand your annoyance at the breeder.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Definitely a Jack A Chi 

My sister had one a couple of years back that sadly she had to rehome 

Wish I could find some better pics of her but here are a couple.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Why do people keep crossing chis with jacks?? I don't get it?!  They cost £500 near me! 

To the OP did your pup come with Kennel club registration papers? Have you contacted them? As if the pup was registered as full pedigree, the parents must be to? Could she just be a badly bred chi?


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Taylorbaby said:


> Why do people keep crossing chis with jacks?? I don't get it?!  They cost £500 near me!
> 
> To the OP did your pup come with Kennel club registration papers? Have you contacted them? As if the pup was registered as full pedigree, the parents must be to? Could she just be a badly bred chi?


Thats why they cross them, very popular just now and no paper trail back to them via kennel club.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

lilythepink said:


> Thats why they cross them, very popular just now and no paper trail back to them via kennel club.


I see 1/4jack Russell 3/4 chi pups for £700 

a lot of the un-papered ones seem to be jack crosses now but you cant tell so they say they are full chis! That is so sad, it really is, makes me so bloody angry!


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

lipsthefish said:


> I'm not sure if this is of any help but Angel is a Chihuahua x JRT, her Mam is Chihuahua x JRT and her Dad is Chihuahua. I haven't got many decent photos at the moment as I have a new laptop but here are a couple that show her body shape and head.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Angel is similar in body shape to my rescue Spook he is chi x JRT although not very big he is only about 5 months at the moment he has a definite JRT body shape. He is also very clever and quick to figure things out much quicker than the IG's or chi's


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Taylorbaby said:


> I see 1/4jack Russell 3/4 chi pups for £700
> 
> a lot of the un-papered ones seem to be jack crosses now but you cant tell so they say they are full chis! That is so sad, it really is, makes me so bloody angry!


but how much is a full chi? I have seen them here for £1200 and 
JRTs for around £200.

don't know how many pups in a litter of chis but there is about 6 at a time from JRTs. So, male chi to female JRT x 6 JRTs....cash machines.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

lipsthefish said:


> I'm not sure if this is of any help but Angel is a Chihuahua x JRT, her Mam is Chihuahua x JRT and her Dad is Chihuahua. I haven't got many decent photos at the moment as I have a new laptop but here are a couple that show her body shape and head.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She is just gorgeous, looking at her I can see why anybody would want this cross.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Easy money, not the price of a full chi but gorgeous and BYBs aren't going to question where their pups go.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

lilythepink said:


> but how much is a full chi? I have seen them here for £1200 and
> JRTs for around £200.
> 
> don't know how many pups in a litter of chis but there is about 6 at a time from JRTs. So, male chi to female JRT x 6 JRTs....cash machines.


You can get a pedigree registered chi from £495 all the way to £1,200 here. infact loads of them cant even sell, prices being highly reduced in my area, which is next to London so very expensive!

If you can get a papered one from a good breeder for £500, why would you buy a cross for the same amount, never got that!

Jacks are around £200 + BUT I have seen a breeder that breeds jacks and sells them as show quality for £550... then you get the 'mini tiny' jacks for £300-400...!!


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Taylorbaby said:


> If you can get a papered one from a good breeder for £500, why would you buy a cross for the same amount, never got that!


Because... "Papers are only for posh people who want to show off", "You don't need papers if all you want is a family pet", "The puppy without papers comes from a loving family who only breed because they love their dogs and aren't looking for money". But really... sometimes people are just too lazy to try and google and contact breeders. Especially when so many people believe that all purebred dogs cost at least 1000 they think that everything that is on gumtree is cheaper than anywhere else...:001_rolleyes:
Oh, and lets not forget that some people just prefer the look of the cross...


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

kirksandallchins said:


> If it is a long coat Chihuahua, I believe some breeders crossed smooth coats with other toy breeds to produce more long coated ones, so DNA tests may show crosses to other breeds even if it was generations ago.
> 
> On The Wonder of Dogs on BBC2 a few weeks ago they DNA tested some dogs and came up with some unusual breeds in the dogs tested - *including Rat Terrier (an American breed rarely if ever seen in the UK)*. It made me wonder how useful these DNA tests were


I've seen one! He does agility, imported to the UK by his American owner. I've seen him a few times usually in the Midlands.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

shadowmare said:


> Because... "Papers are only for posh people who want to show off", "You don't need papers if all you want is a family pet", "The puppy without papers comes from a loving family who only breed because they love their dogs and aren't looking for money". But really... sometimes people are just too lazy to try and google and contact breeders. Especially when so many people believe that all purebred dogs cost at least 1000 they think that everything that is on gumtree is cheaper than anywhere else...:001_rolleyes:
> Oh, and lets not forget that some people just prefer the look of the cross...


Im really sad if people think like that  But I have had people say papers aren't important as they don't want to show, I always explain that its not about showing or breeder but proof, or the kitten/pup/other could be a mix of anything.

I see a german shepherd the other day, said wow he is stunning, was a long hair black & tan gorgeous brown eyes, she said actually mum was a husky!! with blue eyes!  they were all sold as german shepherds x husky though. Would never have guessed at all!

I hate gumtree!!


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

I also saw Jack Russell in her too Long in the body for a chi though she does have a chi head. if I was you I would contact the breeder to see what she as to say.then at least she knows you know she didn't sell you true chi. She looks like a lovely little girl but the point is to let the breeder know she's not fooled you.


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## DawnJoy (Oct 2, 2013)

But she is registered with the kennel club which makes a mockery of the KC.....


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## DawnJoy (Oct 2, 2013)

She is lovely- not the point sadly. I have tried to contact her- nothing. The KC are onto her....


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## DawnJoy (Oct 2, 2013)

I stupidly thought if i got a puppy that was KC registered i was buying a less trouble. Obviously not-


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

DawnJoy said:


> I stupidly thought if i got a puppy that was KC registered i was buying a less trouble. Obviously not-


Dog breeding is full of people who will pull the wool over people's eyes (commit fraud) for the sake of selling a puppy. I suppose you have to ask yourself, would you go to a market and buy a Cartier watch and expect it to be genuine? You really need to look much further when buying. KC is a registration body, but it is open to fraud. There is also a lot more to buying a dog than just making sure it's registered although it's a start.

Sorry, this has happened to you, but don't let it spoil your enjoyment of your pet.


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## DawnJoy (Oct 2, 2013)

The breeder is selling another litter of puppies on several web sites!!!!!!!! I have now rang the breeder.... can't print her response.......... hmmm


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

DawnJoy said:


> The breeder is selling another litter of puppies on several web sites!!!!!!!! I have now rang the breeder.... can't print her response.......... hmmm


  
her response was That bad!?! flip!
i'd report to the KC again if i were you- i really do Hate the way some make all breeders look terrible!!


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

Its about time the KC , got off their backsides and did something about breeders like this, it is happening more often now, but the KC just seem to sit in their offices and do nothing while people are paying high prices for dogs that are not what they say they are on the KC paperwork


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

hazel pritchard said:


> Its about time the KC , got off their backsides and did something about breeders like this, it is happening more often now, but the KC just seem to sit in their offices and do nothing while people are paying high prices for dogs that are not what they say they are on the KC paperwork


They people need to make the KC aware and make the KC do something about it, can hardly blame the KC for dishonest people.


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## Ann Elizabeth (May 12, 2013)

DawnJoy said:


> The breeder is selling another litter of puppies on several web sites!!!!!!!! I have now rang the breeder.... can't print her response.......... hmmm


Another litter of "pedigree chi's" ? If so I'd be contacting KC and inform them again of the story to date. Sorry you've had verbal abuse from this woman.


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## MariaB (Aug 28, 2013)

DawnJoy said:


> Does anyone know my rights?
> 
> I purchased a 5 generation Pedigree Chihuahua(kennel club registered) a year ago. The breeder, of twenty years, said she bred the mother and the father and were from a line of champions.
> It became increasing visible that she is not a Pedigree Chihuahua, so i had a DNA test done. One parent is indeed cross bred, as is its parents and grandparents.
> I paid £1000 for her and although i wouldn't part with her, i have been well and truly conned and i want to get my money back....


I'm taking a great interest in this thread as I too have been duped by a breeder. My Prague Ratter who cost a similar price is very obviously a cross. Like you, I love my dog and he's here for good and just like your dogs breeder, mine has also been breeding for upwards of 20 years.


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## MariaB (Aug 28, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> Dog breeding is full of people who will pull the wool over people's eyes (commit fraud) for the sake of selling a puppy. I suppose you have to ask yourself, would you go to a market and buy a Cartier watch and expect it to be genuine? You really need to look much further when buying. KC is a registration body, but it is open to fraud. There is also a lot more to buying a dog than just making sure it's registered although it's a start.
> 
> Sorry, this has happened to you, but don't let it spoil your enjoyment of your pet.


Pardon for my ignorance but what are those things? I mean, if the pup has papers that seem to weigh up and the breeder has a good reputation, what more are the general public meant to do to be sure? The problem here is, we are not all from the show or breeding world. Some of us just want to buy a pedigree pet.


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## JulieNoob (Oct 22, 2008)

What DNA test did you use? 
Most of them say they are not suitable for purebred dogs as they will show up wrongly - these tests are just for fun - they arent accurate


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## kirksandallchins (Nov 3, 2007)

I think if her ears were erect she would more like a Chi, the ones I have seen come in all shapes and sizes!

It just needs 2 "poor" quality animals to be bred together and you can end up with pups looking nothing like the dogs seen in the show ring. Not that the show ring always produces the most handsome dogs.....beauty is in the eye of the beholder after all


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

here are a few pics of Dexter my chiahuahua. i was given him by the owner of his father when dexx was dropped off at her home by her previous owner to find a new home and i was given him- the lady had already sold me a mixbreed (yorkieXchi) so i don't see any reason for her to lie about dexx being purebred... and he looks like...


(and my star-whale picture :001_wub: )


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## AlanP (Oct 29, 2013)

I am talking to a breeder that I am worried might be the same person. Nobody has mentioned her name or her location, is it possible to find out? 

Any help would be much appreciated.

Alan


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

AlanP said:


> I am talking to a breeder that I am worried might be the same person. Nobody has mentioned her name or her location, is it possible to find out?
> 
> Any help would be much appreciated.
> 
> Alan


unfortunately no one can name names on an open forum, but if you stick around for a while and make a few more posts then dawnjoy can privately message you the name of the breeder she dealt with...

just remember that not every dog will look like the standard- gangly pups can be well proportioned adults and beautiful standard pups can grow in to a dog that would look out of place in a show ring...


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

AlanP - It's buyer beware! If you feel they're not right, stick with your gut feeling and move on! Do your research before not after you've made a mistake. 

Contact a breed club (information available from the Kennel Club site) and ask them to put you in touch with a reputable breeder.

Buying a puppy is something that most people do once every 15 years or so. It's a very different world and most people need some guidance to find a reputable breeder - just like I need help when I buy another car because I know nothing about that world either! :frown2:


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## AlanP (Oct 29, 2013)

Thanks for the responses,

We do not feel the need to have a dog conforming to any kind of standards, but we want it to come from a breeder that treats the dogs properly, we don't want the dog to have any problems and we don't want to be ripped off or to give money to anybody that is ripping people off.

My kids are quite taken now with the pictures and video of the dog, so we would like to proceed, but how do we know?

Again thanks for any help.

Alan


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## JackChi92 (Jul 26, 2012)

My Ralph is a jr x Chihuahua, he was sold to us as a jack but by 6 months we knew he had Chihuahua in him. We paid only £150 for him and he is the light of my life and i wouldn't change him for the world. Your girl is lovely and i hope the breeder gets what's coming to her. Its one thing to be honest and admit what you have done, but its another to then go on selling dogs untruthfully and asking for that amount of money! The cheek of it!! :frown2:


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

_We do not feel the need to have a dog conforming to any kind of standards, but we want it to come from a breeder that treats the dogs properly, we don't want the dog to have any problems and we don't want to be ripped off or to give money to anybody that is ripping people off.

My kids are quite taken now with the pictures and video of the dog, so we would like to proceed, but how do we know?_

You won't know Alan. All the things that you say you want is what every responsible breeder will do - treat the dogs correctly and health test so that the puppy you buy will not cost you more money in Vet's bills and grief for your family watching it suffer.

Breeding to breed standard isn't about winning at dogs shows. It's about breeding puppies that look like you expect them to (not cross breeding etc) and health testing (NOT taking them to a Vet to be checked which is very different) and making them as healthy as possible, accepting that when you're dealing with nature, nothing can be guaranteed.

I know many people who have bought a cheap puppy 'because it's only a pet' but it's cost them £1000s of pounds in the first year because it's been produced by someone who doesn't know what they're doing.

This might give some guidance
Use this guide to obtain a quality puppy from a responsible breeder


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## DawnJoy (Oct 2, 2013)

She comes from Kent- 
I noticed she is selling another litter of puppies by the same parents (which she bred). I phoned her and i can't repeat the response but apically she said take her to court- which i will once the Kennel Club have finished their investigation.


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## DawnJoy (Oct 2, 2013)

I did- they are supposed to be looking into my case..when they have time!!!!!


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## AlanP (Oct 29, 2013)

Thank you all for your advice, you seem a very nice, helpful bunch of people!

Dawn, good luck.

It is a minefield!

Alan


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## fenham (Oct 7, 2013)

Can I just add a comment. I'm new, please excuse me for just popping up here.

I bought a lab when I didn't understand properly what I was doing. I feel quite stupid about that now. I should have done more research.

Anyway, I thought i would add my experience of dna tests as I found it very accurate. i used:

Pet DNA Testing - Doggie DNA Print - Pet DNA Storage - Pet DNA Profile

The breeder told me that my dog was a pedigree and advertised them as "pedigree labrador puppies". She gave me 5 generation pedigree certificate but no KC registration.

I thought i would look into exactly what this dog i bought actually was. Not because i had the kind of suspicions that the op has but because i couldn't trust the breeder and wanted to see how far the lies went.

came back that my dog's mother was not a full Labrador but 3/4 lab, 1/4 bull breed. It showed which dog was not a full labrador and showed that the dam's dam 's line was the non labrador element.

The reason i know this is all true is armed with these facts i managed to get the "breeder" to admit to me that she knew her bitch's mother wasn't what she'd said it was. therefore the pedigree she'd given to me was not accurate. she made up kc names for non kennel club registered dogs and added FTCH to the front of a few names just to make things more impressive:frown2:

i sought legal advice as to what i should do but in the end it became clear that if i had secured a refund she would demand the dog back and there's no way on this planet i'd give that poor dog back to that woman. I figure she's well aware of this.

Turns out now that she's breeding again from the same bitch and spouting the same lies on a very very well known pet sales site.

Hope my experience of these DNA tests is useful.


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## DawnJoy (Oct 2, 2013)

Just to give everyone an update- The breeder did not reply to any of my letters or emails and put the phone down on me. The kennel club have cancelled my registration on the strength of the DNA report. I am now taking her to court- watch this space.
Thankyou one and all for your help. If any of you would consider yourself an 'expert' to comment on the likely looking breeding of Noodle, i would appreciate it. Thanks again.


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## DawnJoy (Oct 2, 2013)

only just seen this&#8230; I am only seeking a partial refund - less the amount i consider i could have purchased a cross bred Chihuahua for.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

DawnJoy said:


> Just to give everyone an update- The breeder did not reply to any of my letters or emails and put the phone down on me. The kennel club have cancelled my registration on the strength of the DNA report. I am now taking her to court- watch this space.
> Thankyou one and all for your help. *If any of you would consider yourself an 'expert' to comment on the likely looking breeding of Noodle, i would appreciate it*. Thanks again.


if you're planning on using that as evidence, you'll need a fair few independent judges or the like i'd imagine... and no one could comment without seeing her in the flesh...

really hope you can get this sorted!!!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Turns out now that she's breeding again from the same bitch and spouting the same lies on a very very well known pet sales site.
> 
> Hope my experience of these DNA tests is useful.


PLEASE contact Trading Standards for the breeder's area with your evidence. Misrepresentation is the one part of SoGA which applies to private sales so even if she claims to be a small hobby breeder rather than 'trading' she will be of interest to them.


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