# Not how the dream of owning a rough collie puppy was suppose to go..



## MaisiesMum (Aug 28, 2014)

So I'm posting this in sheer desperation.

We have a 13 week old Rough Collie who we got when she was 8 weeks. We got her from a show breeder, who raises her dogs on a farm. Her breeder was very in the know how about health and rough collies in general so we were so excited to be getting a puppy from her.

The first few weeks we had her there was the usual constant biting, and herding instinct you anticipate from a rough collie puppy. We tried to teach her bite inhibition through yelping, however this had no affect, other than to excite her further. Next we tried a firm 'No' and a spray with a bottle of water, this also excited her further. Then we tried anti chew spray on our hands, this worked initially but the novelty soon wore off. Then (under the breeders instruction) we tried rolling her onto her back, stroking her paws and looking into her eyes - this made her worse! So currently we are just using ignoring bad behavior, diversion onto a toy and time out in her puppy play pen when it gets too far... 

However puppy biting isn't the problem - although it bloody hurts and is not relenting.The main problem is that in the past week/ week and a half, she has upped the anti. She can now launch herself onto you when you're sat on the sofa, but whilst she does this, she has her teeth bared and whilst she isn't growling, she has her mouth in the air snapping. More so, she bites you with no inhibition whatsoever, she breaks your skin and she tugs like you are one of her toys. We've tried VERY firm no's. We've tried yelping. But she just isn't bothered, it only encourages her more! The only option you have in this situation is to hold her down, whilst someone helps you get her into her pen for time out. Now obviously this isn't ideal - pinning her down is making her worse... but the other option is letting it go further and at the moment I honestly don't know how far that would go. It obviously also isn't ideal that we constantly need two people in the room with her in case this happens, because she is snapping and lunging all the way down to the pen its becoming impossible to handle with just the one person. The other concern that in a matter of weeks, she'll be too big for that pen. Then how will we deal with it?

Sources i've read say the above techniques, but they've also stated turning your back. Have they tried turning their back or ignoring a dog that is coming at them with teeth bared! Of who you just know means business.

This has left us knowing that this is quickly becoming very serious. She is a quick growing medium/large breed... She flips suddenly, there is no trigger, or sign she is going to turn. She is not fearful of anything.. there are no strangers or anything unusual in her presence when she does it. She is not possessive over anything, no food possession or treat/toy possession. Although she does bark.. A lot.. bossing people about.

She also shows no signs of loving behavior or affection i.e no licking. From the moment you walk in the room, if she come over to you its full on biting and mouthing you, your feet, anything she can get too. 

I hate to say it but there is just no enjoyment from her. It just seems to be constantly praying she's asleep or you know she's going to be biting someone constantly. You d aren't play with her because that soon ends up in her lunging at people. Although we minimize her play to no tug games, and if she turns the game into a tug game, we drop it instantly to not be playing games that are 'power struggle' games. I try to make the most of petting her when she's just woken up so is quite drowzy and nice, I make a bit of a fuss of her and tell her 'good girl' and positively reinforce her with treats.

She is fine out on her walks she wants to say hi to absolutely every person, and is miffed if somebody doesn't stop to pet her. She jumps up, but doesn't bite, she is quite happy with a fuss from them. She is also fine with dogs on her walks. In fact she is brilliant on the lead very responsive. She has also learned some basic commands, (sit and paw paw) we're still working on lie down and stay! But god forbid fetch! She is booked in to start training classes, because unfortunately puppy socialization classes were full here! Occasionally her 'sit' command will work if she isn't 'too far gone' into a biting frenzy.. it will halt her in her tracks temporarily.

But this is fast becoming a problem. If we put her in her pen she just goes to sleep, so it doesn't really feel like she's particularly getting a punishment. I mean when you go to let her out she just lays in there until she decides to come out. As previously mentioned none of those previous techniques work. I just worry as a family we're not cut out for such a headstrong stubborn puppy who is clearly very dominant. My dad is quite fragile at the moment. But also we're the type of family who let our dog sit up with us on the sofa etc. we're pretty darn soft! We don't want to have to be forceful with her all the time!

There are no other dogs in the house. She has the run of the downstairs of the house, and has access into the garden for the majority of the day. She has someone at home all day. She goes for one 20 min walk at 8am, one 20min walk at 12midday, one 40min walk at 4pm and another 20 min walk at 8pm. She is fed on good quality food. She also shows no signs of being in pain or anything of the sort.

She is teething, but she is spoiled with toys, nylabones, bones, kongs, freeze toys etc. she is constantly got something on offer to her.

I am very worried that she is a puppy that needs a firmer owner than us. I absolutely devastated to even be considering that she isn't the puppy for us. We have never given up on a dog before. From our previous cocker spaniel who was mad as a box of frogs till death, to our rough collie rescue who couldn't control his bowels or bladder in old age- but we loved no less. We will be absolutely mortified if we have to call her breeder and ask for them to take her back. But we're trying to think about what is right for the dog and ourselves. If we have done something to make her like this, I don't want to damage her further.... and whilst she's young more experienced people such as her breeder can correct her. I don't want to let this spiral into something far worse if it can be corrected now.

Nonetheless we are trying to wipe our minds of what she has done so far, and look at things from a new angle before we make our decision on what is for the best. So i'm hoping beyond hope, that someone can give me any more tips, just something that will work please!! After weeks of googling, I've decided that I need more specific help!

We're at our wits ends, and to put it bluntly, so many tears have been shed, over thinking how the hell have we damaged this beautiful little puppy, for her to be like this. We are absolutely mortified. After waiting 2 years to get this pup after our last loved doggy family member died, it really is devastating to even be thinking about this.

Please guys, any ideas??


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Have you read this?
The Bite Stops Here

If anything, she doesn't need a "firmer" hand, but a more gentle one. One that can see when she is starting to get into her Viper mode, and either re-direct it onto more appropriate chew toys, or even see it as sign she is getting too over excited and give her some down-time.

Have you thought of doing any clicker training with her? Even teaching simple tricks can redirect her mind, and then you can also use the clicker to teach her what you'd prefer her to do when she gets snarly.

She is a puppy and puppies do this, as I'm sure you know. Some are worse than others!

She's also old enough to start basic puppy training classes, if you haven't already - and some daily homework on what you learn at class will be a great foundation. 15 mins of brain-training will exhaust a puppy more than an hour of physical exercise.

She's an intelligent breed - and a sensitive one too. Being hard, harsh or too "firm" at this age could spoil her for life. See if you can channel all this energy into learning and doing, even if it's just learning some impulse control, and how to relax.

I'd also say that her waking regime at the moment may be too much for a 13wk puppy - they need less exercise at this age, and more focus on training and getting the brain engaged.As I said above, 15 mins of training will definitely tire her more than the walks she's getting now.


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## MaisiesMum (Aug 28, 2014)

From that link you sent me I have took this to be useful;

_'An extremely effective technique with boisterous pups is to call the puppy a "jerk!" and leave the room and shut the door. Allow the pup time to reflect on the loss of its favourite human chew toy immediately following the hard nip, and then return to make up. It is important to indicate that you still love the pup  it is the painful bites which are objectionable. Instruct the pup to come and sit, and then resume playing. Ideally, the pup should have been taught not to hurt people well before it is three months old.

It is much better for the owner to leave the pup than to try to physically restrain and remove it to a confinement area at a time when it is already out of control. If one pup bites another too hard, the bitee yelps and playing is postponed while the injured party licks its wounds. The biter learns that hard bites curtail an otherwise enjoyable play session. Hence, the bite learns to bite more softly when the play session resumes._

Will definitely try implementing that instead!

Thanks for your advice, it does sound like it may be worth removing some walking time, and increasing teaching her commands  She is booked in to begin her training classes soon, but we may as well get a head start! Thanks again


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Please also remember she is very very young. You can't expect too much too soon.

Unfortunately you have been given truly awful advice on how to deal with her biting and this has clearly exasserbated the situation and affected your bond with her.

It's very important that you use a good positive approach to dealing with her behaviour- it's not about punishment. 

Please make sure the classes you are going to are run by an experienced trainer with RECOGNISED qualifications.
Have you visited the classes yet by yourself to see how they are run? If not, this would be a good idea.

Choose your trainer VERY carefully.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

We've been through the puppy stages with our cockapoo. We've made it out the other end and he's now nearly 12 months old. We taught him a good leave command amongst other things as he likes chasing leaves if they move (still does but not as bad) and if we want him to leave something whatever it is, just the fact he stops and watches them go is enough for us. You can apply this to people walking by. We had the biting - he was dubbed the cockerdile for a while as he loved biting our feet as we moved, so I kept shoes on. Toy diversion helped, and doing a bit of mental stimulation helped too, not just playing. This can be achieved with hiding food around the room and encouraging him to sniff and find the treats, at the same time teaching him a good Find it command. If he gets too much, put him in a puppy play pen for a time out. Usually if Teddy got too much with his biting it meant he was ready for a sleep.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

MaisiesMum said:


> There are no other dogs in the house. She has the run of the downstairs of the house, and has access into the garden for the majority of the day. She has someone at home all day. She goes for one 20 min walk at 8am, one 20min walk at 12midday, one 40min walk at 4pm and another 20 min walk at 8pm. She is fed on good quality food. She also shows no signs of being in pain or anything of the sort.


As she's a large breed dog I would just do twenty minute walks so lessen the time at 4pm. Are you mainly walking off or on lead? Bonnie our Retriever just got twenty minute walks twice a day to prevent any problems with her growing joints. Remember physical exercise will just make her fitter and more hyperactive at home, so mental stimulation is more important.
You may feel like giving up at times, but all these things you've mentioned are typical run of the mill puppy things that if you battle through now she'll eventually stop. How are you doing with toilet training?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Oh dear, I am so sorry that you are not enjoying this experience, unfortunately some of your techniques have, as you have discovered, only served to make your puppy distrust you and every time you up the ante so does she.

It is a confusing world out there with many so called trainers advocating outdated and outmoded methods.

Where do you live?

Perhaps we could recommend a reputable trainer in your area who might be able to give you a few 1:1 sessions to demonstrate techniques which might be more beneficial to you and your dog etc.

There are a lot of very good people out there, and they might not be as expensive as you might imagine.

Let someone show you that your puppy IS fun after all.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I was unaware a rough collie was considered a large breed


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

Many of the people who have replied to you are far more knowledgeable than I, but I'm surprised that no-one has asked if you've spoken to the breeder for advice (sorry if I missed this in your opening post).....


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

I went through a phase with my pup when he was incredibly mouthy and nippy, wet excited, frustrated or tired. He was not at all fun to be around and at times I wondered what I'd done.

Things that helped us:
- if pup is misbehaving just walk away and shut the door and leave it alone for a minute or so. Then come back in and resume play (or whatever you were doing), but walk out again the moment it starts acting up again. I found this approach much less confrontational than trying to "catch" and physically move the pup from the room which would cause my puppy to become quite hand shy and increasingly stressed.

- baby gates at the doorway of whichever room you tend to hang out with the puppy in (I got one for £4 from eBay). Allows you to leave the room (eg for time out), saving you from puppy teeth, but puppy can see you so is a bit less distressed and can't scratch at the door causing damage, and you can see it to make sure it's not reaping havoc.

- a house line (lightweight lead that pup trails whilst you are present and supervising). Allows a non confrontational way of moving or redirecting pup if they're not in the frame of mind to listen to you. You can just pick up the end of the lead and encourage them towards you, if they're not coming then VERY GENTLE pressure on the lead as an encouragement then lots of praise when they come with you. Saves you from standing in the doorway repeatedly calling the pup whilst they ignore you (thus ruining your recall command) or playing "catch the puppy" whilst they dash around the room just out of reach.

- avoid the situations where pup is most likely to misbehave. If pup gets nippy when overtired then put to bed before they get to that stage. Remove things they might chew rather than constantly telling them not to chew etc.

- think about things you enjoy about your pup and maximise the time spent doing those things.

- lots and lots of training. Make it really fun with lots of treats, praise and play so that pup learns that doing what you ask is super fun.

It gets better! From about 8 months onwards (sorry I know that's a way away) my pup was (mostly) a delight to be around, and he did steadily improve prior to that. He's now 13 months and pretty good most of the time although does have his moments!


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## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

MaisiesMum said:


> So I'm posting this in sheer desperation.
> 
> We have a 13 week old Rough Collie who we got when she was 8 weeks.


I recall the biting stage with our first dog, she is a border collie and 6 1/2 month old now.
It did eem like a long period of time that she was biting, perhaps longer than 3 weeks. But we got through it. Perhaps you should just keep with the basic yelping and saying no, for a few weeks longer.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I would definitely be stopping the pinning down and forcing her into her crate. It'll either turn it into a game for the pup or make her fearful and defensive, both of which are likely to make her more bitey.

I've had this problem with a fully grown adult dog (believe me, a large, powerful and determined adult dog is even harder to turn your back on and ignore than a puppy) and found leaving the room and shutting the door behind me for a very short (10 seconds or so) period of time worked best. But you also need to pre-empt when they're going to start and do something to prevent it as often as you can. Either settling them down with something like a stuffed Kong to entertain them and tire them out or by interacting with them in an appropriate manner. The leaving should be a last resort for when you've missed all the signs. And it is not a "sit and think about what you've done" sort of thing. It is literally a short, sharp "you do this and I leave". Which is usually the opposite of what the dog wants to happen.

With all of mine it's taken time and consistency to stop the biting. Trying multiple different things in a very short space of time isn't going to do it. If you're concerned that this is more than normal puppy behaviour and that she really means business then you really need to seek the help of a reputable professional though.


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## Bobbie (May 3, 2008)

Just wondered who the breeder was as most rough collies are ok I know I have had several in my life. Bracken was just a normal pup but boy did he learn fast with tit bits and kind words and hand signals. What food are you feeding??


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

Old Shep said:


> I was unaware a rough collie was considered a large breed


its a 'large' in agility terms sorry. But I thought the joints still need protecting at a young age.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I'd have a look for someone in your area who uses positive training where do you live maybe someone can recommend something.

The situation isn't ideal, and you've now got yourself in a physical battle with a dog which you are never going to come out of well, she will be scared and wary now and the best form a defence is often attack. 

I would get someone in to help with the situation so they can watch your puppy and assess her actions, she is still a baby and it can be sorted but personally I'd rather someone professional came in an help you both


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## Fubrite (Jan 22, 2013)

Plenty of good advice here, especially about using positive methods, and getting help from a professional. 

I would just add that, even at 12 weeks, she still needs a lot of sleep, especially as she's probably getting a lot more exercise than she's been used to (I'm guessing here, but 10-12 weeks is usually when pups start being allowed out for proper walks) and being overtired will make her cranky and naughty. 

Young pups are meant to need 18-20 hours of sleep a day, and adults not that much less (12 -14). Make sure she's getting plenty of naps. Not all puppies will take themselves off for a nap if they are tired (ask me how I know! ) so you might have to settle her in her crate with a chew and make her rest...

Also make sure to reward her when she's being calm and good!


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## LaceWing (Mar 18, 2014)

I would use NILIF on her (nothing in life is free). Not allowed on furniture or beds, teach sit and have her sit before feeding her, before petting her, etc. As she learns more obedience, you can use down or something else before rewarding her. 

Pick up all of the toys. Hand her a toy (saying, take) after she sits nicely. Praise. Never let her have more than two toys at a time. Shell be herding them and guarding them. It is easier for her to have just the one or two, and you can rotate them. 

Have her sit at the door before letting her outside. She should sit beside the door or behind you so the door does not hit her. This will become her default cue for I gotta go.

Teach her got to bed or 'go lie down. When you notice her about to become rambunctious, send her to bed. She may be overstimulated and cant settle down, like a toddler, and you are teaching her what to do.

Teach her a game where she has something in her mouth. With our border collie we used Im going to get you. The human chases the dog while the dog has a toy in its mouth. This keeps the teeth off you. We use this game when the grandkids come over because Hamish wants to herd them. It turns the tables and keeps his nipping mouth off the kids. If she will fetch, teach fetch and play it outside. There are games you can teach that will use her brains not just her body (search/find, for instance).


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

My Jack Russell, Rosie, bit like a demon when she was a pup. She too would come flying at your face, with her mouth wide open, and didn't seem to have any bite inhibition at all.

I used to leave a very short lead on her at all times through the day and, when her biting became intolerable, I would lead her out of the room and leave her alone for a while to calm down.

She had a terrible habit of tearing up to any visitors too, jumping up and grabbing their clothes and, again, the lead was very useful, as I could restrain her.

Little by little, her behaviour did improve and, by the time she was around five months old, the biting had stopped completely.


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## KimR (Aug 4, 2014)

As above post suggested, try clicker training! I am using it for my stubborn puppy and she is doing well with it! Dragging a distressed puppy to her crate will not help her trust you, I find throwing some treats into the crate so she has to go in voluntarily with a click helps her go there willingly! Also maybe keep her off furniture until she's older as she needs to learn her place in the pecking order/pack and allowing her to sit with you reinforces her idea that feh is equal to you! You have to be pack leader! My puppy is only allowed on the sofa for a cuddle in the evening on her blanket but only when invited up! I had a staffy puppy that was a nightmare, even a one yo one dog trainer said I would have problems with her but I persevered and she turned into the best dog ever! 
Maybe have a dog trainer come to your house for a couple of sessions? 
Don't give up on her yet! Good luck and let us know how you get on?


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

KimR said:


> As above post suggested, try clicker training! I am using it for my stubborn puppy and she is doing well with it! Dragging a distressed puppy to her crate will not help her trust you, I find throwing some treats into the crate so she has to go in voluntarily with a click helps her go there willingly!* Also maybe keep her off furniture until she's older as she needs to learn her place in the pecking order/pack and allowing her to sit with you reinforces her idea that feh is equal to you! You have to be pack leader!* My puppy is only allowed on the sofa for a cuddle in the evening on her blanket but only when invited up! I had a staffy puppy that was a nightmare, even a one yo one dog trainer said I would have problems with her but I persevered and she turned into the best dog ever!
> Maybe have a dog trainer come to your house for a couple of sessions?
> Don't give up on her yet! Good luck and let us know how you get on?


The bolded has long been disproved. It's fine allowing dogs up by invite only but they really don't believe we're dogs and really aren't out to dominate first their own household and then the world .


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## KimR (Aug 4, 2014)

I am only going by what a very experienced dog trainer and vet suggested regarding a friends dominant aggressive puppy! Plus it's always worked for me! But I stand by the only on furniture when invited up! Dogs need to know the boundaries and that needs to start right at the beginning which is hard when they are such cute little puppies! Those puppies soon grow into big strong dogs!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

KimR said:


> I am only going by what a very experienced dog trainer and vet suggested regarding a friends dominant aggressive puppy! Plus it's always worked for me! But I stand by the only on furniture when invited up! Dogs need to know the boundaries and that needs to start right at the beginning which is hard when they are such cute little puppies! Those puppies soon grow into big strong dogs!


Yes; nothing wrong with going on furniture only when invited and boundaries are most definitely needed - but the dominance theory has long been disproved. I don't encourage anything in a puppy that I wouldn't want in an adult dog because I am aware they grow into big strong dogs .


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## Bobbie (May 3, 2008)

This is Bracken at 13 weeks I have never used a pen and as you can see he is chilled out


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Nothing wrong with rules and boundaries but allowing a dog to get on the furniture, sleep in bed with you etc without invitation if that's what you're happy with does not mean they're going to "think they're the boss" or anything like that. Mine have all been allowed on the furniture providing they get off it when asked to. I've yet to have it cause a problem.

As Dogless says, dominance theory has been disproven. All these arbitrary rules such as not allowing them on furniture, eating before them, not allowing them through doors before you etc don't do a thing to convince your dog that you are a dog let alone one of higher rank than him. Some of them do have their own benefits, mine is often asked to go through doors behind me for safety reasons.

And I have to say I'd be wary of a trainer labelling a puppy as dominant aggressive to be honest.


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## advocate for animals (Sep 11, 2013)

First I have to say, it's one thing to dream of owning a puppy, never mind a specific breed of puppy, but it's quite another faced with the reality of them in your home. Just wondering (although it's too late now), if you did any research into puppies, and this breed in particular before you bought him? I'm afraid I'm not in favour of breeders myself, so I don't know if you really found a reputable one, and they're giving you proper advice, but let's move on.

Manhandling, grabbing your dog, dragging him into a crate, screaming at him - no wonder he's lunging with teeth bared. He's probably scared and protecting himself. From this moment forward, start from scratch and forget what you've been doing until now. 


Every dog needs the basics, no matter what breed you have, so let's start there, but you need to have patience and not give up too quickly. It's not your dog's fault.

Feed and walk him around the same time every day. Different breeds were bred for different purposes. If your dog is bred for herding, you have to satisfy his natural behaviours. A walk down a garden path isn't going to do it.

It doesn't seem like he's getting enough exercise. A 20 minute walk here and there isn't going to do it.

It's very important to research what kind of games and activities will satisfy your specific breed of dog. If you don't satisfy his natural instincts, he will be bored, frustrated, and have behaviour issues that you will have to undo.

I know it feels impossible at times, to ignore a barking dog but you have to teach him that barking will not get him what he wants. Turn your back (yes it's hard if they're jumping on you) or leave the room. Confine him to a smaller area so he can't destroy your home.

When he calms down, reward him with a favourite treat or toy.

Consistency is key, so have a family meeting, and make sure everyone who is in contact with your dog does exactly the same thing otherwise training won't work. 

Letting him run around alone in the backyard is not a solution. If you're going to devote some play time while there, fine. 

Of course puppies nip and yes it hurts. When your dog tries to nip you, give him an appropriate toy right away. Keep doing that to show him what's appropriate to chew, and what isn't.

Start with these basics, practice them consistently and when you get frustrated, give yourself a time out.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

advocate for animals said:


> It doesn't seem like he's getting enough exercise. A 20 minute walk here and there isn't going to do it.


He is a 13 week old puppy, if he was an adult then you would have a point but not for a puppy.
It's not about the length of walks with a pup, it's about the quality of the walk.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

KimR said:


> As above post suggested, try clicker training! I am using it for my stubborn puppy and she is doing well with it! Dragging a distressed puppy to her crate will not help her trust you, I find throwing some treats into the crate so she has to go in voluntarily with a click helps her go there willingly! Also maybe keep her off furniture until she's older as she needs to learn her place in the pecking order/pack and allowing her to sit with you reinforces her idea that feh is equal to you! You have to be pack leader! My puppy is only allowed on the sofa for a cuddle in the evening on her blanket but only when invited up! I had a staffy puppy that was a nightmare, even a one yo one dog trainer said I would have problems with her but I persevered and she turned into the best dog ever!
> Maybe have a dog trainer come to your house for a couple of sessions?
> Don't give up on her yet! Good luck and let us know how you get on?


Gosh someone forgot to tell my dogs that. None of my previous or current dogs (rotties, german shepherds and pointers) have been prevented from using the furniture and beds yet we've had no problems with them trying to be pack leaders or dominate us. They even eat before us.


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## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

KimR said:


> You have to be pack leader!


There was a farmer giving a demonstration with border collies on BBC1s countryfile that said the same. Nother wrong with being a leader, but some people do get on their high horse because they think it means dominance. A good trainer is always a good leader.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

El Cid said:


> There was a farmer giving a demonstration with border collies on BBC1s countryfile that said the same. Nother wrong with being a leader, but some people do get on their high horse because they think it means dominance. A good trainer is always a good leader.


I may be a leader but I do not have a pack of anything at home, hence I am not a pack leader. 

This term is meaningless in the context of dogs.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2014)

El Cid said:


> There was a farmer giving a demonstration with border collies on BBC1s countryfile that said the same. Nother wrong with being a leader, but some people do get on their high horse because they think it means dominance. *A good trainer is always a good leader.*


And your experience with good trainers is? Youve interacted personally with many good trainers? Spent time with them and their dogs? Seen their seminars and attended their workshops?

There is a reason dog/hander combinations are often referred to as teams. Some of the best trainers out there create partnerships with their dogs. Its not a leader/follower relationship. It is a team, a partnership. Nothing about whos in charge and everything about effective communication, mutual trust and respect.
And when you get to watch a true team working together - regardless of the job, its simply beautiful to watch.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

El Cid said:


> There was a farmer giving a demonstration with border collies on BBC1s countryfile that said the same. Nother wrong with being a leader, but some people do get on their high horse because they think it means dominance. *A good trainer is always a good leader.*


.....Nevermind, it's been said....


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## LaceWing (Mar 18, 2014)

Some dogs should not be allowed on the furniture. Doesn&#8217;t matter what theory you are using, if the dog is cheeky when allowed on the furniture, then don&#8217;t allow him on. We have fostered several rescue dogs and keep them off the furniture until they have proven themselves. I had one Boston that I was careful to home with a couple who would not have him on the furniture. Be that as it may, a large heavily shedding dog starts out as a cute puppy and you may later regret having him on the sofa. Think of the future.

A dog that is not behaving should not be allowed privileges, including being on the furniture. If you want to allow him up there once he is minding well, fine. Personally, I&#8217;d have a sheet or blanket for him while on the sofa. This keeps his fur contained, and if you don&#8217;t want him up there for some reason, you can put his blankie on the floor.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

LaceWing said:


> Some dogs should not be allowed on the furniture. Doesnt matter what theory you are using, if the dog is cheeky when allowed on the furniture, then dont allow him on. We have fostered several rescue dogs and keep them off the furniture until they have proven themselves. I had one Boston that I was careful to home with a couple who would not have him on the furniture. Be that as it may, a large heavily shedding dog starts out as a cute puppy and you may later regret having him on the sofa. Think of the future.
> 
> A dog that is not behaving should not be allowed privileges, including being on the furniture. If you want to allow him up there once he is minding well, fine. Personally, Id have a sheet or blanket for him while on the sofa. This keeps his fur contained, and if you dont want him up there for some reason, you can put his blankie on the floor.


You could also make him sit in the corner, wearing a Dunce's Cap, and make him write out "I must behave, I must behave, I must behave" one hundred times.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

LaceWing said:


> Some dogs should not be allowed on the furniture. Doesnt matter what theory you are using, if the dog is cheeky when allowed on the furniture, then dont allow him on. We have fostered several rescue dogs and keep them off the furniture until they have proven themselves. I had one Boston that I was careful to home with a couple who would not have him on the furniture. Be that as it may, a large heavily shedding dog starts out as a cute puppy and you may later regret having him on the sofa. Think of the future.
> 
> *A dog that is not behaving should not be allowed privileges, including being on the furniture. If you want to allow him up there once he is minding well, fine*. Personally, Id have a sheet or blanket for him while on the sofa. This keeps his fur contained, and if you dont want him up there for some reason, you can put his blankie on the floor.


I don't quite understand that point. Are you saying that a dog that misbehaves in any way should not be allowed any privileges or just the furniture type privileges? and if my dog is not behaving say by peeing off after scents on his walk rather than recalling to the whistle how does keeping him off the furniture teach him to behave? surely thats about training. I do understand why some people do not want their dogs on furniture and that is absolutely fine as long as they are consistent but I don't understand how no privileges improves behaviour unless the misbehaviour is specific to being on the furniture such as guarding it.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2014)

LaceWing said:


> Some dogs should not be allowed on the furniture. Doesnt matter what theory you are using, if the dog is cheeky when allowed on the furniture, then dont allow him on. We have fostered several rescue dogs and keep them off the furniture until they have proven themselves. I had one Boston that I was careful to home with a couple who would not have him on the furniture. Be that as it may, a large heavily shedding dog starts out as a cute puppy and you may later regret having him on the sofa. Think of the future.
> 
> A dog that is not behaving should not be allowed privileges, including being on the furniture. If you want to allow him up there once he is minding well, fine. Personally, Id have a sheet or blanket for him while on the sofa. This keeps his fur contained, and if you dont want him up there for some reason, you can put his blankie on the floor.


Or maybe you just dont want dogs on the furniture, or in the kitchen, or in the bedrooms, etc.

There are a bazillion legitimate reasons why you might not want to allow a dog access to furniture, but it still boils down to clear communication. Not whether or not the dog is behaving being cheeky, or taking advantage of privileges.

A dog who location guards needs the behavior to be dealt with as the resource guarding it is, not as a dog who is not behaving.

A dog who you dont want on the sofa because of fur, you simply dont allow on the sofa. Our dogs are not allowed on our bed but the kids dont mind so they are allowed on the kids beds. I dont out of the blue say hey youre not behaving so today no bed privileges for you.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

A dog can't possibly understand "Oh, yesterday you were allowed on the sofa but today, you wouldn't stop barking at that cat, so you have to stay on the floor".

All that means to him is that you're not consistent in your behaviour and training.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Or maybe you just don't want dogs on the furniture, or in the kitchen, or in the bedrooms, etc.
> 
> There are a bazillion legitimate reasons why you might not want to allow a dog access to furniture, but it still boils down to clear communication. Not whether or not the dog is "behaving" being cheeky, or taking advantage of "privileges".
> 
> ...


Yeah that!
I always wonder if people that chose to use the sofa as a "privilege" have soft comfy dog beds for when the dog is good and hard plastic beds for when they are bad 

Thai would not understand that he is being kicked of the comfy sofa because he had decided to blow his recall that day, he would just think he is being kicked from the sofa :idea:


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> Yeah that!
> I always wonder if people that chose to use the sofa as a "privilege" have soft comfy dog beds for when the dog is good and hard plastic beds for when they are bad
> 
> Thai would not understand that he is being kicked of the comfy sofa because he had decided to blow his recall that day, he would just think he is being kicked from the sofa :idea:


Mine prefers a tshirt or sweater on the floor to the comfy dog beds, human beds or sofa so not sure how that would even work for me  Force him to sleep on the sofa when he's not behaved?


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## Lorelei80 (Aug 25, 2014)

.................


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