# Can someone please tell Me Corbyn...



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

...that

1. The general election is over and he lost.

2. President Trump isn't going to give a monkey's what the leader of the UK opposition party thinks.

Because frankly his display at Glastonbury was embarrassing, you know it that way you're embarrassed on his behalf.

And why did he chose to go there on Armed Forces Day? To show his contempt for our forces?


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Why was it embarrassing? I thought it was a great speech. Could you imagine the ice cold Maybot doing anything remotely similar? She's terrified of the public. 

Corbyn is not a stupid man. He knows that with the dire situation the Tories are in we will be looking at another general election in the close future. He is going out to connect with voters and judging by the latest opinion polls, it's working. 

The demographics of politics are changing and I understand this is hard for Tory supporters to accept.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I didn't see his speech . Don't understand why he was asked to give a speech there.
It should be about the music.
Barry Gibb ! Legend !! That's how its done !


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Corbyn is being clever. He appeals to the young at Glastonbury, not so much the friends and family of the armed forces, plus there were bigger crowds to appeal to at Glastonbury than at individual armed forces events. On top of that, he wouldn't be permitted to make a political speech at the organised armed forces events. He'd have to stick to praising and supporting them.

Got to give him his dues.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Dr Pepper said:


> ...that
> And why did he chose to go there on Armed Forces Day? To show his contempt for our forces?


Because he wouldn't gain from it, perhaps ?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

labradrk said:


> The demographics of politics are changing and I understand this is hard for Tory supporters to accept.


The Tories themselves are starting to accept it. They're considering bypassing Boris & Co and bringing in a younger, more appealing face to lead them post May.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I'm sure he is very grateful that some are feeling embarrassed on his behalf 
The people watching the speech didn't look embarrassed, nor did Corbyn so I think it's best to save your embarrassment for someone that deserves it


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@Elles any names yet ?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Elles said:


> The Tories themselves are starting to accept it. They're considering bypassing Boris & Co and bringing in a younger, more appealing face to lead them post May.


I heard them say on Andrew Marr that they are trying to get William Hague back. I'm sure Corbyn will be shaking in his boots :Hilarious:Hilarious


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> @Elles any names yet ?


Javid, Raab and Patel.

They are talking of maybe a caretaker pm, while people like the above are prepared if I've understood correctly.


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## SpringDance (Mar 18, 2016)

Dr Pepper said:


> ...that
> 
> 1. The general election is over and he lost.


But there might be another election very soon and that one, he could win...


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

SpringDance said:


> But there might be another election very soon and that one, he could win...


Exactly, he's still campaigning, not resting on his laurels.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Firstly apologies for the typo in the title, darn mobile 



StormyThai said:


> I'm sure he is very grateful that some are feeling embarrassed on his behalf
> The people watching the speech didn't look embarrassed, nor did Corbyn so I think it's best to save your embarrassment for someone that deserves it


I pretty sure a lot of the 
cheering was being done in jest. It was cringe worthy, he's on another planet.

And if he really just had to go, he could have done so on Friday or Sunday and supported his country's armed forces on Saturday.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> ...that
> 
> *Because frankly his display at Glastonbury was embarrassing,* you know it that way you're embarrassed on his behalf.
> 
> And why did he chose to go there on Armed Forces Day? To show his contempt for our forces?


I thought he was brilliant and so did the crowd, they said he had one of the big audiences.

He was there because he was invited to be there, he didn't just turn up and hope there'd let him in.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Elles said:


> Exactly, he's still campaigning, not resting on his laurels.


I thought it was widely accepted that there won't be an election now until after Brexit?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

The crowds at Glasto are mainly lefties , of course they love him . he wouldn't risk it otherwise .
A true reaction would be from those watching on the telly .


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

To be honest, I didn't even know we had a Armed Forces Day until it was on the news in the afternoon.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

There were armed forces events on other days. However, he neatly sidestepped, so that voters who don't agree with armies can vote for him and those that do can too. He's a clever chap.

We've heard that there'll be no election before. Predictions wildly vary from this autumn, to two years, to the full term. Corbyn isn't going to sit back when he can rally his own troops. He loves it.

People say why don't pop stars and actors stop working once they're multi millionaires, it's because they're doing what they love most. So is Mr Corbyn. 



Dr Pepper said:


> Firstly apologies for the typo in the title, darn mobile
> 
> I pretty sure a lot of the
> cheering was being done in jest. It was cringe worthy, he's on another planet.
> ...


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> I pretty sure a lot of the
> *cheering was being done in jest*. It was cringe worthy, he's on another planet.
> 
> And if he really just had to go, he could have done so on Friday or Sunday and supported his country's armed forces on Saturday.


This is _Glasto_. They're not afraid to boo you if they don't like you. Ask Kanye West


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

labradrk said:


> Could you imagine the ice cold Maybot doing anything remotely similar?


Could you imagine her even wanting to..?


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Happy Paws said:


> I thought he was brilliant and so did the crowd, they said he had one of the big audiences.
> 
> He was there because he was invited to be there, he didn't just turn up and hope there'd let him in.


Pretty sure the majority of the crowd weren't there to seem him but the following acts.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Dr Pepper said:


> Firstly apologies for the typo in the title, darn mobile
> 
> I pretty sure a lot of the
> cheering was being done in jest. It was cringe worthy, he's on another planet.
> ...


How does going to a festival not show support for the armed forces? does showing support mean you have to be in a certain place for a set length of time and do nothing else that day. I thought he made it perfectly clear in his pre election speeches that he supported our armed forces.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

If someone like Stormzy thinks he did a good job there and clearly wasn't embarrassed on his behalf, neither were his sons who were there with him, nor the many thousands who were there and cheering him on,I doubt very much your embarrassment on his behalf factors into it.

He was celebrating armed forces day with the armed forces on duty, but it's about respecting them every day and a leader who shows up for the one day but under funds and cuts their budgets, isn't showing true respect to them anyway.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Calvine said:


> Could you imagine her even wanting to..?


Well, it does involve getting frighteningly close to the great unwashed (OK, VERY unwashed, given the location  ), so not really her cuppa, is it?


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> Pretty sure the majority of the crowd weren't there to seem him but the following acts.


They didn't have to stay and listen to him did they,


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Dr Pepper said:


> he could have done so on Friday or Sunday and supported his country's armed forces on Saturday.


 But didn't Andrea Leadsom cause recently a bit of a stir because she used the word 'patriotism' or 'patriotic'? I didn't see the clip so not sure how it came about or in what context it was used..


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Happy Paws said:


> They didn't have to stay and listen to him did they,


I imagine, unless they went and hid in the bushes or the latrines, they wanted to hear whatever was on after him...unless he was the last?


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Elles said:


> Corbyn is being clever. He appeals to the young at Glastonbury


Clearly that's what was behind it.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

If I was there I wouldn't have risked booing him. He had a lot of support.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Calvine said:


> I imagine, unless they went and hid in the bushes or the latrines, they wanted to hear whatever was on after him...unless he was the last?


Their chanting for him says otherwise.

People there actually wanted to see and hear him, peolpe I know who went were looking forward it seeing him. It was a big thing there.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I don't know why we're even arguing about it lol. Corbyn was having fun promoting his brand of politics in the best place possible. He couldn't even dream of somewhere better. How can anyone criticise him for it? Of course he's going to choose Glastonbury over an armed forces event. :Hilarious​


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Happy Paws said:


> They didn't have to stay and listen to him did they,


Unless they wanted lose their places for the following acts they did.



Calvine said:


> But didn't Andrea Leadsom cause recently a bit of a stir because she used the word 'patriotism' or 'patriotic'? I didn't see the clip so not sure how it came about or in what context it was used..


No idea!



Elles said:


> I don't know why we're even arguing about it lol. Corbyn was having fun promoting his brand of politics in the best place possible. He couldn't even dream of somewhere better. How can anyone criticise him for it? Of course he's going to choose Glastonbury over an armed forces event. :Hilarious​


He could have done both very easily but he chose not.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Calvine said:


> But didn't Andrea Leadsom cause recently a bit of a stir because she used the word 'patriotism' or 'patriotic'? I didn't see the clip so not sure how it came about or in what context it was used..


It was on Newsnight. I didn't see all of it, but in the bit I did see she told the presenter that it was about time broadcasters started being patriotic about Brexit.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> He could have done both very easily but he chose not.


Of course he could, but this is Jeremy, what did you think he'd do and what do you think would be in his and his politics' best interest?

He supports our soldiers and ex soldiers, he doesn't support what they've been told to do. Avoidance was in this case the best form of defence imo. That he drew huge and enthusiastic crowds at Glastonbury was a bonus. Personally I find it quite scary. I'm not keen when big crowds get too enthusiastic over a politician.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

emmaviolet said:


> Their chanting for him says otherwise.


That'll be the drugs.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Dr Pepper said:


> Unless they wanted lose their places for the following acts they did.


Exactly this. Once you get your place at something like this you stake your claim.


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## ZoeM (Jul 16, 2015)

The Maybot popped to Liverpool for armed forces day. She didn't stay long - an hour max. The parade was at 11. Prince Edward was greeted with cheers and applause.

I felt pity for May, she's aged hugely in the last year. She has put herself up for a job that few politicians wanted. None of them wanted Brexit, and now May has decided she is going to see it through and do her best I guess. Whatever happens, she needs to be able to blame Europe for a shit outcome that will please neither the brexiters nor the remainers. The propaganda best begin soon.

I saw her booed and applauded in Liverpool, hustled away by the police and security that possibly outnumbered the few that were drawn there, having seen the collection of expensive cars. A few people sang the Jeremy Corbyn chant to her. And as the door of her car was shut, she was advised loudly to "Get out of our city."

All of the people I've seen on social media slagging off Corbyn for not attending armed forces day are laughable. I saw the 'crowds' in Liverpool and they were primarily friends and family of the veterans and representatives of the armed forces. A few were ex-military themselves. May went because she had a duty to go as our prime minister.

Personally, if I could have been organised enough to get tickets for Glastonbury, I'd have preferred to be there myself. Corby was invited there by Eavis. Glastonbury has a history of political bias. It has been sponsored by Greenpeace and held ban the bomb rallies. Eavis is a staunch socialist. When I was there, Margaret Thatcher resigned and there were parties celebrating this and spontaneous applause and cheering by the crowds. Corbyn was put on stage at 4PM. That tickled me.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

MilleD said:


> Exactly this. Once you get your place at something like this you stake your claim.


Have a look around, they wanted to see him, people were getting there early to see him, not other for other things.

They were chanting and cheering, they wanted photos with him.

I find it strange people want to deny a movement that's happening, if you look before the election, he had a rally that was packed with thousands of people.

People are genuinely interested in what he has to say.


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## ZoeM (Jul 16, 2015)

emmaviolet said:


> Have a look around, they wanted to see him, people were getting there early to see him, not other for other things.
> 
> They were chanting and cheering, they wanted photos with him.
> 
> ...


In addition, he was on at 4pm for about ten minutes. That's a lot of toilet breaks, umbrella/suncream runs and most importantly beer-topups to fit in before the main act in the evening!


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> I find it strange people want to deny a movement that's happening .


Predominantly the Tories who are just about soiling themselves.:Smug

Please note: Soiling; to sh1t oneself.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

ZoeM said:


> In addition, he was on at 4pm for about ten minutes. That's a lot of toilet breaks, umbrella/suncream runs and most importantly beer-topups to fit in before the main act in the evening!


Err, Mr Corbyn was on a 4pm next band 4.15pm. but yes I'm sure they were all there for him.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

ZoeM said:


> The Maybot popped to Liverpool for armed forces day. She didn't stay long - an hour max


She is somewhat busy at the moment.
I reckon she'd love the time to go prancing around at Glastonbury or something else relaxing


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Dr Pepper said:


> Pretty sure the majority of the crowd weren't there to seem him but the following acts.


Why is it so hard hard to accept that people actually like him and want to hear what he has to say?

How many UK politicians could stand up on a stage and command the attention of tens of thousands of people?

I'm just failing to see why this has upset some Tory supporters so much. Apart from maybe sour grapes....


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

labradrk said:


> Why is it so hard hard to accept that people actually like him and want to hear what he has to say?
> 
> How many UK politicians could stand up on a stage and command the attention of tens of thousands of people?
> 
> I'm just failing to see why this has upset some Tory supporters so much. Apart from maybe sour grapes....


Not upset me at all, he just seems to be going a little bit over the top. Why do so many people think the whole crowd at a music festival were there to see him and not the bands that were starting five minutes later?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

This thread is hilarious,,,


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> Their chanting for him says otherwise.
> 
> People there actually wanted to see and hear him, peolpe I know who went were looking forward it seeing him. It was a big thing there.


Because its Glastonbury and Glastonbury is politically biased in his favour , if he couldn't raise a crowd with all the leftie luvvies there , that would be like Catholics not turning up for the Pope's Easter Sunday mass .


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> Because its Glastonbury and Glastonbury is politically biased in his favour , if he couldn't raise a crowd with all the leftie luvvies there , that would be like Catholics not turning up to the Pope's Easter Sunday mass .


always excused away though. and then there's always a little dig at people,'leftie luvvies' and such.

Well yes, it may be his kind of crowd.

But then today there was the same chanting at the cricket, the complete opposite in crowds.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

StormyThai said:


> This thread is hilarious,,,


Have to agree, Labour supporters thinking Mr Corbyn drew the crowds of tens of thousands at a music festival, rather than the bands that were starting five minutes later. No one's had such a captive audience since Johnny Cash played in Falsom State Prison!


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

How do you know that Glastonbury was filled with "leftie luvvies"?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Dr Pepper said:


> Have to agree, Labour supporters thinking Mr Corbyn drew the crowds of tens of thousands at a music festival, rather than the bands that were starting five minutes later. No one's had such a captive audience since Johnny Cash played in Falsom State Prison!


Did you go?
Do you know anyone that went?

How do you know that the crowd didn't go to that stage for Corbyn and then go to another after he finished?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Exactly, you may not like the man or his politics, but you can't deny his popularity with some, or his clever use of it. 

I know we might not like it, but quite a lot of people wanted to see him and the band that followed are activists, so he may well have been preaching to the converted. However, one has to ask who converted them and I suspect he may have to take at least some credit there too. 



emmaviolet said:


> Have a look around, they wanted to see him, people were getting there early to see him, not other for other things.
> 
> They were chanting and cheering, they wanted photos with him.
> 
> ...


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> always excused away though. and then there's always a little dig at people,'leftie luvvies' and such.
> 
> Well yes, it may be his kind of crowd.


Yes it was his crowd and nope its not an excuse. As to digs about leftie luvvies , I meant the crowd . Coming from a working class Labour background I can't stand them . Lots of digs about Tories here too for that matter .



StormyThai said:


> How do you know that Glastonbury was filled with "leftie luvvies"?


How do you know it wasn't ?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I prefer to not assume the voting habits of others myself


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> Yes it was his crowd and its not an excuse. As to digs about leftie luvvies , I meant the crowd . Coming from a working class Labour background I despise them . Lots of digs about Tories here too for that matter .
> 
> How do you know it wasn't ?


I see very few digs at Tory supporters and no name calling.

The Tories themselves are called out, as are all governments and politicians, but the entire Glastonbury audience are quite diverse.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

StormyThai said:


> Did you go?
> Do you know anyone that went?
> 
> How do you know that the crowd didn't go to that stage for Corbyn and then go to another after he finished?


Oh God you wouldn't catch me in a crowd that size, any crowd at all even. But yes I have seen Run The Jewels (whoever they are) playing straight after him and if anything the cried swelled. Fifteen minutes before him was Craig David. But nope, everyone was stood in front of the main stage to see Mr Corbyn.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> I see very few digs at Tory supporters and no name calling.
> 
> The Tories themselves are called out, as are all governments and politicians, but the entire Glastonbury audience are quite diverse.


Well to be fair, the thread is about Corbyn and Glastonbury. If Tories were in the crowd cheering Corbyn's speech the thread would be kind of pointless.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Elles said:


> Exactly, you may not like the man or his politics, but you can't deny his popularity with some, or his clever use of it.
> 
> I know we might not like it, but quite a lot of people wanted to see him and the band that followed are activists, so he may well have been preaching to the converted. However, one has to ask who converted them and I suspect he may have to take at least some credit there too.


Actually I'll agree, it is very clever to been seen on TV in front of someone else's 100,000 crowd and make it look like your own. Back to the old new Labour spin.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Dr Pepper said:


> Have to agree, Labour supporters thinking Mr Corbyn drew the crowds of tens of thousands at a music festival, rather than the bands that were starting five minutes later. No one's had such a captive audience since Johnny Cash played in Falsom State Prison!


Its perfectly possible to sit and listen to someone making a speech but remain totally impassive and bored by it but that isn't what happened is it? Here is his speech for those who missed it

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...s-crowds-glastonbury-festival-thousands-turn/


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

OK so you have no idea how many stages are at the festival, you have no idea how many bands play at the same time and you have no idea that the crowd were the same people from Craig David through to RTJ sooooo you have no idea if the people watching actually wanted to hear him speak or not.

If it makes you feel better to feel embarrassment for someone that didn't need to feel embarrassed then that's your call -shrugs-


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Dr Pepper said:


> Oh God you wouldn't catch me in a crowd that size, any crowd at all even. But yes I have seen Run The Jewels (whoever they are) playing straight after him and if anything the cried swelled. Fifteen minutes before him was Craig David. .


Was Craig David any good? I got bored with Ed Sheeran . I kept thinking of the Keith Lemon sketch show

Keith Lemon sketch show


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Jesthar said:


> Well, it does involve getting frighteningly close to the great unwashed (OK, VERY unwashed, given the location  ), so not really her cuppa, is it?


Not to mention all that trampled wheat bringing back shameful memories of her delinquent past.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Its perfectly possible to sit and listen to someone making a speech but remain totally impassive and bored by it but that isn't what happened is it? Here is his speech for those who missed it
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...s-crowds-glastonbury-festival-thousands-turn/


Missed it? I avoided it. :Hilarious

Ah well, go on then, let's have a look. :Bag


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Its perfectly possible to sit and listen to someone making a speech but remain totally impassive and bored by it but that isn't what happened is it? Here is his speech for those who missed it
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...s-crowds-glastonbury-festival-thousands-turn/


Perhaps they thought he was Roger Whitaker 










TBF He is gaining in confidence in his speeches. The practise is doing him good .


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Arnie83 said:


> Not to mention all that trampled wheat bringing back shameful memories of her delinquent past.


:Smuggrin I wonder if she went scumping as well but was too ashamed to admit it !


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

kimthecat said:


> Was Craig David any good? I got bored with Ed Sheeran . I kept thinking of the Keith Lemon sketch show
> 
> Keith Lemon sketch show


Oh good, I'm not the only one that doesn't think Ed Sheeran is fantastic, I didn't even bother to watch him.

Don't know about Craig David I didn't see him either, only tuned in to watch Mr Corbyn.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> I prefer to not assume the voting habits of others myself


so you don't know either


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Elles said:


> Well to be fair, the thread is about Corbyn and Glastonbury. If Tories were in the crowd cheering Corbyn's speech the thread would be kind of pointless.


It's always the same though.

Anyway, I said up the thread, the cricket crowd are always Tory heavy, today they too were chanting the same JC song. So I doubt they are the same 'lefty luvvies' that were at Glastonbury.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Elles said:


> If I was there I wouldn't have risked booing him. He had a lot of support.


Absolutely , they'd throw their quail eggs at you


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Didn't really say anything. It's not what he says, it's how he's going to fix it. Other than one point I don't really disagree with him, but he's not giving any solutions, just listing what's wrong. 

I think dissing the thousands of wealthy people who did everything they could to improve the lot of the less well off is a bit unfair though. It wasn't the poor at the bottom who brought about change on their own, they were supported by scientists, doctors, wealthy poets, even politicians from wealthy backgrounds and numerous other people who were born into wealth, or attained it. I'm not keen on a them and us, whichever way it's worded or promoted tbh.


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## Odin_cat (Mar 14, 2017)

Never been sure what a 'lefty luvvie' is.... And I still think snowflakes fall from the sky .


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Odin_cat said:


> And I still think snowflakes fall from the sky .


Another conspiracy theory believer !


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> ...that
> 
> 1. The general election is over and he lost.
> 
> ...


I thought this was a brilliant response to your last point P
_
I'm ex-Army.Jeremy Corbyn did not snub me! He was at Glastonbury raising the morale of my
grandchildren, promising them some kind of future!_


Retweets *8,214*
Likes *20,718*



kimthecat said:


> The crowds at Glasto are mainly lefties , of course they love him . he wouldn't risk it otherwise .
> A true reaction would be from those watching on the telly .


It's not just lefties who love him 

*Tuxedoed Cambridge students sing 'Oh Jeremy Corbyn' at Summer ball in most well-heeled tribute ever*
The Labour leader's name rang out at exclusive Downing College's May Ball after-party last night
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/cambridge-students-sing-oh-jeremy-10663906


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Great photos of the day. Amazing to think only the Rolling Stones have attracted a bigger crowd


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Calvine said:


> Could you imagine her even wanting to..?


No she's far too weak to face that many people. She cant cope with a crowd of 20 never mind tens of thousands - plus she'd get booed off stage


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Calvine said:


> But didn't Andrea Leadsom cause recently a bit of a stir because she used the word 'patriotism' or 'patriotic'? I didn't see the clip so not sure how it came about or in what context it was used..


She thinks holding the government to account is unpatriotic - bit like in Russia.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

noushka05 said:


> Great photos of the day. Amazing to think only the Rolling Stones have attracted a bigger crowd


Oh that's funny 

Do you know what, a few years ago I went to the last performance of a farewell tour for a performer in the states. Over 100,000, yes 100,000, in the stadium to see this performer. I don't think for one minute the support acts thought we had turned out for them. Mind you, with Mr Corbyn believing his own hype and spin he probably did think they were all there just for him


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> Oh that's funny
> 
> Do you know what, a few years ago I went to the last performance of a farewell tour for a performer in the states. Over 100,000, yes 100,000, in the stadium to see this performer. I don't think for one minute the support acts thought we had turned out for them. Mind you, with Mr Corbyn believing his own hype and spin he probably did think they were all there just for him


I'm talking about at Glastonbury.

Even the Tory Times have done a decent article on it 

*The Times of London*‏Verified [email protected]*thetimes* Jun 24

*Not even the Rolling Stones in 2013 got a crowd like Jeremy Corbyn's at **#Glastonbury* http://thetim.es/2rOkm1S

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...ement-_-Unspecified-_-TWITTER&linkId=39066645

There was a major headliner at this year's Glastonbury - and he was a vegetable-growing leftie written off until the biggest election upset in a generation, in his own words, by the commentariats and the elites. He may only have had the 4pm slot on the Pyramid stage, but not even the Rolling Stones in 2013 got a crowd like Jeremy Corbyn's. Appearing before politicised US hip hop duo Run the Jewels, the unexpected saviour of the Labour Party gave a speech that will surely come to be his JFK moment.

After thanking Michael Eavis for providing a space for all of us - all of us who can afford the ticket, at least -Mr Corbyn gave an impassioned oration that included his greatest hits, including…


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40404782

It won't get the column inches or hours of airtime and earnest analysis devoted every year to the leaders' speeches at conference time, but it was far more important. They rarely amount to much - trust me I've covered quite a few of them in my time - and they're nearly always forgotten within the week.

Mr Corbyn's offering was, to say the least, unusual. And that is the point. He doesn't play the game - and people who can't bear political game-playing love this conscious vibe.

Of course, part of its importance was the venue.

He wasn't speaking to party press officers and political hacks in a cavernous hall, but live and direct to thousands of people in a muddy field in Somerset. That the rebellious and radical leader of the Labour Party, scorned by the establishment and most of his own MPs, was asked to make a speech, is part of the meaning.

That might sound weird when we have just seen a return to two party politics. But, while the label on the Labour bottle is the same, the contents are very different.

It is one of the many ironies of Brexit that Theresa May's analysis was probably spot on.

That the vote which turned the British political world upside down wasn't only about the European Union but about people left behind, missing out, ignored by an elite and frustrated. Her mistake - and ours - was to believe that she could capture that spirit.

Still, "Oooh Jeremy Corbyn" might be as good as it gets for Jezza. This could be peak Corbyn. What lies ahead is tougher - to convince people not only that he's a nice old geezer who's not the horned demon painted by the tabloids, but that he is a potential prime minister.

The Labour right's grudging acceptance that he had a good war has yet to translate into anything like helpful support. Many on his team want vengeance. His reshuffle buried no hatchets.

It is true the press have thrown everything they have to throw and the more over the top abuse has failed. But expectations were so low that it helped Mr Corbyn.

Then again, the Conservatives can hardly warn of the dangers of a weak government with a besieged leader with no authority trying to manage a party pulling in different directions on Brexit.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

noushka05 said:


> I'm talking about at Glastonbury.
> 
> Even the Tory Times have done a decent article on it
> 
> ...


I was just giving you an example. So you really do think Mr Corbyn, and Mr Corbyn alone drew that crowd?


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

labradrk said:


> I'm just failing to see why this has upset some Tory supporters so much


Not sure they are 'upset'; surprised rather. It rather reminds me tho' of the self-seeking ''celebs'' who use , let's say, an awards ceremony, to spout their hatred of Trump and in so doing get their pictures in the paper and publicity for their recent film/song etc. ''It's all about ME''.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> I'm talking about at Glastonbury.
> 
> Even the Tory Times have done a decent article on it
> 
> ...


Even the Daily Mail gave him reasonable coverage

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4635348/Glasto-s-Labour-love-threatens-dampened-rain.html

The Corbyn chant - sang to the tune of White Stripes' hit Seven Nation Army - first emerged and spread through the crowd at 4am on Wednesday as thousands of ticketholders queued to get into the festival.

A chorus of 'Jeremy Corbyn also started at the event's silent disco - with a sand statue also spotted showing the Labour leader riding a fox while chasing Theresa May through fields of wheat.

The festival has been gripped by Corbynmania this year, with Glastonbury founder Michael Eavis describing the Islington North MP as the 'hero of the hour' in an interview with The Guardian.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Calvine said:


> Not sure they are 'upset'; surprised rather. It rather reminds me tho' of the self-seeking ''celebs'' who use , let's say, an awards ceremony, to spout their hatred of Trump and in so doing get their pictures in the paper and publicity for their recent film/song etc. ''It's all about ME''.


Milking it I believe is the term. Mind you can't blame him for making the most of his five minutes in the sun.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40404782
> 
> . This could be peak Corbyn. What lies ahead is tougher - to convince people not only that he's a nice old geezer who's not the horned demon painted by the tabloids, but that he is a potential prime minister.
> 
> .


but does the nice old geezer have the potential to be PM ? I'm not sure i want a nice old geezer to be PM . I want someone who's experienced enough and tough enough to get us out of this bloody mess we are in . 

According to the Mail he slammed Trump , that would get most people on his side for a start unless they were UKIP . He picked his target well ! . A good tactic.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Dr Pepper said:


> I was just giving you an example. So you really do think Mr Corbyn, and Mr Corbyn alone drew that crowd?


The chants for Corbyn started before he even got there. People were chanting for him from 7am when the gates opened.
So, whilst the main reason that people went to the festival was to experience the festival as a whole...many people that went were ALSO looking forward to hear Corbyn speak.
He was invited to speak and he decided to take the opportunity, it's not like he forced his way on the stage and forced thousands of people to listen AND cheer for him.

The tories have found access to this money tree to help their majority in government but it's Corbyn we should be embarrassed for? OK then :Hilarious


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> but does the nice old geezer have the potential to be PM ? I'm not sure i want a nice old geezer to be PM . I want someone who's experienced enough and tough enough to get us out of this bloody mess we are in .


Much depends on when the next election ends up being held and who the opposition is and what if anything the Tories have learnt from that pile of crap they called a manifesto. If its a straight choice between the nice old geezer and the not very nice old gal (there is only 7 years age difference so not sure why he gets called old and she doesn't) then I would prefer him  he is compassionate and seems to understand people whereas she comes across as cold, hard and with no idea of how to communicate with real people.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I would prefer him  he is compassionate and seems to understand people whereas she comes across as cold, hard and with no idea of how to communicate with real people.


I expect there will be other choices of potential PMs when the next election comes. I certainly hope so . 
I don't really mean a choice between the two or even their personalities ,

Communication is a good start but I'm talking ability to deal with world leaders etc , making hard headed decisions etc .


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Even the Daily Mail gave him reasonable coverage
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4635348/Glasto-s-Labour-love-threatens-dampened-rain.html
> 
> ...


I'm sure they were just chanting that until someone else turned up!

I find it utterly bemusing that people are denying he is attracting a crowd and a movement. But that's actually a good thing, he's been underestimated many times and only gets stronger for it. If they keep on with the denial, he'll be the PM soon.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

kimthecat said:


> According to the Mail he slammed Trump , that would get most people on his side for a start unless they were UKIP . He picked his target well ! . A good tactic.


His opening lines were having a go at Mr Trump, I think that's what I found cringe worthy, the fact he thought Mr Trump would give a toss as to what he thought. The comment was also very very corny.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> I expect there will be other choices of potential PMs when the next election comes. I certainly hope so .
> I don't really mean a choice between the two or even their personalities ,
> 
> Communication is a good start but I'm  talking ability to deal with world leaders etc , making hard headed decisions etc .


Time will tell  I think he will still be leader of the Labour Party but I very much doubt Theresa May will still be leader of the Conservatives. Trouble is there isn't an obvious leader lurking so I see them heading into the political wilderness like they were during the Blair years. Sometimes two hard heads get nowhere and lock horns so perhaps its time for a different approach.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Dr Pepper said:


> His opening lines were having a go at Mr Trump, I think that's what I found cringe worthy, the fact he thought Mr Trump would give a toss as to what he thought. The comment was also very very corny.


I don't think he thought any such thing - you are having a pop at Corbyn - doesn't mean you think he is reading this forum or would give a flying fig even if he was does it?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> I expect there will be other choices of potential PMs when the next election comes. I certainly hope so .
> I don't really mean a choice between the two or even their personalities ,
> 
> Communication is a good start but I'm talking ability to deal with world leaders etc , making hard headed decisions etc .


May couldn't even get a good deal with the DUP, a party that naturally agrees with her anyway, she didn't need to waste billions of pounds on them, as they wouldn't want to bring her down.

How is she qualified for the job?


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Time will tell  I think he will still be leader of the Labour Party but I very much doubt Theresa May will still be leader of the Conservatives. Trouble is there isn't an obvious leader lurking so I see them heading into the political wilderness like they were during the Blair years. Sometimes two hard heads get nowhere and lock horns so perhaps its time for a different approach.


I doubt if she will PM for long, either. A week in politics is a long time!
Lets hope LiB Dems manage a renaissance !


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> His opening lines were having a go at Mr Trump, I think that's what I found cringe worthy, the fact he thought Mr Trump would give a toss as to what he thought. The comment was also very very corny.


It's not always or even usually Trump, but I have noticed that virtually every speech or interview that Corbyn gives (or the ones I've heard) nearly always start with slagging someone else


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Time will tell  I think he will still be leader of the Labour Party but I very much doubt Theresa May will still be leader of the Conservatives. Trouble is there isn't an obvious leader lurking so I see them heading into the political wilderness like they were during the Blair years. Sometimes two hard heads get nowhere and lock horns so perhaps its time for a different approach.


I wouldn't be surprised if we have the full five years of this government with a leader change (possible on both sides) after Brexit. This would give both parties two years to find and promote a new leader. It'd be madness to change leader, let alone government mid Brexit negotiations. And despite all Mr Corbyn's bravado and bet the last thing he really wants is have Brexit forced upon him.

Then again my record on politics is pretty abysmal!


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> May couldn't even get a good deal with the DUP, a party that naturally agrees with her anyway, she didn't need to waste billions of pounds on them, as they wouldn't want to bring her down.
> 
> How is she qualified for the job?


I didn't vote for her . Its not likely she will PM for long.

Rottie was talking about potential PMs and I asked if she thought Corbyn had the ability to lead . As i have already said to her , I'm not comparing the two .
I am genuinely worried now about the mess we are in and who will get us out of it . it sesm the Tories are looking at their MPs to see who could be their new leader as Elle said earlier and gave some names. The LIb dems aren't going anywhere . Then there is Corbyn . I guess we are in a wait and see situation .


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Me Corbyn? You Theresa?


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

I thought it was the long-lost brother, Michael Edward.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> I doubt if she will PM for long, either. A week in politics is a long time!
> Lets hope LiB Dems manage a renaissance !


Sorry, but, Nick Clegg, allowing Tory Lite, has killed any chance of the Lib Dems having a renaissance any time this century
Its going to take an awful lot for their previous supporters, including me, to ever trust them again
they need to build bridges and get back to their core roots and elect a leader people can get behind, not a question dodger
No wonder there was talk about bringing Paddy back


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Does he want to come back?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I don't even know who the Lib dem leader is now! Didnt one just resign ?


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

["Dr Pepper, post: 1064901217, member: 1450538"]...that

1. The general election is over and he lost.
*Not everyone is a sore looser. We need more examples of rising strong in any area, not just politics. *

2. President Trump isn't going to give a monkey's what the leader of the UK opposition party thinks.
*Probably not, but it's good to know that the leader of the UK opposition agreed with what most of the country think. *

Because frankly his display at Glastonbury was embarrassing, you know it that way you're embarrassed on his behalf.
*No, you were embarrassed. I was a little embarrassed by Craig David myself. *

And why did he chose to go there on Armed Forces Day? To show his contempt for our forces?

*Of the two, I'd go to Glastonbury too. It doesn't mean I think less about Armed Forces Day, but I'd rather listen to a speech about peace and new futures too. I remember on armistice day. Glasto has always been political since 1960s at Shepton Mallet (my husband went and went to every festival until 1980s). Numerous soliders were tweeting that they supported Corbyn on this choice not that he needs to be endorsed by Daily Express, The Sun or the Mail or whichever bum this pointless story has been pulled out of.

This is the same Theresa who ignored the Grenfell victims unless they were handpicked and driven to her nice posh house on Downing Street yes? He has to let her do something right, give her a chance, fair's fair *

*You don't like him, we know this. Corbyn probably knows so I don't think anyone needs to tell him.

How on earth does anyone reply to a flipping quote on PF now. *


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2017)

Dr Pepper said:


> I thought it was widely accepted that there won't be an election now until after Brexit?


When do you think is that then? After two years? Do you really think so? No way it will end in two years, You get a deal of how to get out (what to do with people and your commitments) and then you start negotiation about free movement of people, goods and money. Then there are trade deals for each sector. This will take years and will probably be an on-going thing for a decade or so. You know, whenever EU regulations change, you need to renegotiate the deals you made. Unless you make a very soft Brexit, which means as little as possible will change. Apart that you lost your privileges. Still that will be a small price to pay in order to keep everything the same as before, well as much as you could. Then it could be over in two years, but that will never happen with May.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Corbyns crowd at Glasto

From twitter;

.Love the multi-cultural adoring working-class crowd at Glasto! Well I know, poshers. Ok, just one black guy...oh yeah, he's security.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Mirandashell said:


> Does he want to come back?


wish he did, but I doubt it
he said no to a 'comeback' after Charles Kennedy and I dont see any reason for him to change his mind


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

deleted


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

MollySmith said:


> ["Dr Pepper, post: 1064901217, member: 1450538"]...that
> 
> 1. The general election is over and he lost.
> *Not everyone is a sore looser. We need more examples of rising strong in any area, not just politics. *
> ...


I actually used to like him, posted the very same on this forum. He's just gone a bit egomaniac and I don't think that's a positive trait.



MrsZee said:


> When do you think is that then? After two years? Do you really think so? No way it will end in two years, You get a deal of how to get out (what to do with people and your commitments) and then you start negotiation about free movement of people, goods and money. Then there are trade deals for each sector. This will take years and will probably be an on-going thing for a decade or so. You know, whenever EU regulations change, you need to renegotiate the deals you made. Unless you make a very soft Brexit, which means as little as possible will change. Apart that you lost your privileges. Still that will be a small price to pay in order to keep everything the same as before, well as much as you could. Then it could be over in two years, but that will never happen with May.


Apparently, according to Mr Davies we'll be out in 2019 on whatever has been agreed by then. He may be wrong but as he's head honcho on the negotiations I'll go with him for now. No doubt ongoing deals will be done after 2019 but that's how trade and politics work and to be expected.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Dr Pepper said:


> I actually used to like him, posted the very same on this forum. He's just gone a bit egomaniac and I don't think that's a positive trait.
> 
> Apparently, according to Mr Davies we'll be out in 2019 on whatever has been agreed by then. He may be wrong but as he's head honcho on the negotiations I'll go with him for now. No doubt ongoing deals will be done after 2019 but that's how trade and politics work and to be expected.


Oh well, I'm sure you'll get over it. All politicians are to a degree, they're like the lead singer of a band, a bit Dave Grohl in casual wear. They have to be, to do that job I'm sure. May certainly is, as Thatcher was, Churchill seemed to be and Blair too.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

MollySmith said:


> Oh well, I'm sure you'll get over it.


Over what?


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Dr Pepper said:


> Over what?


What you think about Corbyn.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

mrs phas said:


> wish he did, but I doubt it
> he said no to a 'comeback' after Charles Kennedy and I dont see any reason for him to change his mind


Vince Cable is apparently going to stand for leader.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> Corbyns crowd at Glasto
> 
> From twitter;
> 
> .Love the multi-cultural adoring working-class crowd at Glasto! Well I know, poshers. Ok, just one black guy...oh yeah, he's security.


So your correlation from that snapshot is that this is ONLY black person there, do you really not think that, outside of this snapshot, there were no other persons of colour (apart from bright pink) attending Glasto OR Listening/queueing to JC?

who needs blinkers when one is that narrow minded?


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

MollySmith said:


> What you think about Corbyn.


Oh, doesn't trouble me. My comments are observations rather than concern.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

In our area Lockdown and Respect festivals are multicultural, though I have to admit the let's rock festival is less so. I don't think Chesney Hawkes and Jason Donovan are very popular amongst mobo fans.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Elles said:


> In our area Lockdown and Respect festivals are multicultural, though I have to admit the let's rock festival is less so. I don't think Chesney Hawkes and Jason Donovan are very popular amongst mobo fans.


I'm going to be called racist for this no doubt. But reverse that and if I said "I don't think Stevie Wonder and Will.I.Am are very popular amongst MOWO fans" would I called racist?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Mowo would be classical I expect and most people like Stevie Wonder. I quite like Black Eyed Peas myself, though not so much Will.I.Am on his own. I would guess that fans of classical music wouldn't go to a Will.I.Am or Stevie Wonder festival and expect to hear classical. Mobo is recognised, mowo isn't, so yep, your comment if not racist, doesn't really have any point imo.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

What's mowo?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Same as usual then. No Glastonbury next year.

http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/26/epic-...farm-as-glastonbury-comes-to-a-close-6734510/


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> Corbyns crowd at Glasto
> 
> From twitter;
> 
> .Love the multi-cultural adoring working-class crowd at Glasto! Well I know, poshers. Ok, just one black guy...oh yeah, he's security.


 The tickets cost £238 each (+ booking fee).


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Mirandashell said:


> What's mowo?


Exactly.

MOBO is 'music of black origin'


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Elles said:


> In our area Lockdown and Respect festivals are multicultural, though I have to admit the let's rock festival is less so. I don't think *Chesney Hawkes and Jason Donovan* are very popular amongst mobo fans.


To be fair, are they popular with anyone?

*Runs & hides before I get beaten up by Chesney fans*


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Mirandashell said:


> What's mowo?


Well what would be the outcry if we had Music Of White Origin awards? Would it be allowed even?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> Well what would be the outcry if we had Music Of White Origin awards? Would it be allowed even?


We don't know, because no one has wanted to compile a list, or knows what it is. I don't see why not though.


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## ZoeM (Jul 16, 2015)

Hrmm.

At 4pm at Glastonbury, most people haven't even woke up. To see such a huge crowd at 4pm is highly unusual. The band that were up at 4.15 are not well known. Only the smaller groups are on in the early afternoon hours. I saw The Lancashire Hotpots at about 2pm for example at one festival!


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Elles said:


> We don't know, because no one has wanted to compile a list, or knows what it is. I don't see why not though.


I think it's because nobody had seen a need. Music is universal. For example you have the Brits, you have the CMA (Country Music Association) awards, both are open to all. Why MOBO is even needed is beyond me, it's just a PC excerise.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

ZoeM said:


> Hrmm.
> 
> At 4pm at Glastonbury, most people haven't even woke up. To see such a huge crowd at 4pm is highly unusual. The band that were up at 4.15 are not well known. Only the smaller groups are on in the early afternoon hours. I saw The Lancashire Hotpots at about 2pm for example at one festival!


Jools Holland, Craig David just before and Katy Perry an hour or so later are probably a bigger draw than a politician at a music festival.

Say that out loud and you realise his ridiculous it all is.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Dr Pepper said:


> Well what would be the outcry if we had Music Of White Origin awards? Would it be allowed even?


If you need to ask that question you have no knowledge of the history of black music and how it has been exploited. You really need to educate yourself if you want to be taken seriously.

Honestly.... the dumbness of that question can't even begin to be explained in a post.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Mirandashell said:


> If you need to ask that question you have no knowledge of the history of black music and how it has been exploited. You really need to educate yourself if you want to be taken seriously.
> 
> Honestly.... the dumbness of that question can't even begin to be explained in a post.


If you say so. I believe the dumbness of segregation in any way is repressive. This is the 21st century.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

mrs phas said:


> So your correlation from that snapshot is that this is ONLY black person there, do you really not think that, outside of this snapshot, there were no other persons of colour (apart from bright pink) attending Glasto OR Listening/queueing to JC?
> 
> who needs blinkers when one is that narrow minded?


First , I didn't actually write that tweet . 
Second, No one said there weren't any other black people outside the snapshot. ! Why wouldn't there be ?. You're looking at this from the wrong angle . It s not about who goes to glastonbury but who Corbyn is hob nobbing with .


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> I think it's because nobody had seen a need. Music is universal. For example you have the Brits, you have the CMA (Country Music Association) awards, both are open to all. Why MOBO is even needed is beyond me, it's just a PC excerise.


Mobo is open to anyone of any ethnicity. It's the type of music that's important, not who's playing it.


----------



## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Dr Pepper said:


> If you say so. I believe the dumbness of segregation in any way is repressive. This is the 21st century.


You completely misunderstand the meaning of the word segregation as well.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Calvine said:


> The tickets cost £238 each (+ booking fee).


 I'd pay that to avoid going there !


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Elles said:


> Mobo is open to anyone of any ethnicity. It's the type of music that's important, not who's playing it.


I get that, so what is black music?


----------



## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Seriously, DP, are you on a windup?


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Mirandashell said:


> You completely misunderstand the meaning of the word segregation as well.


the action or state of setting someone or something apart from others.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Dr Pepper said:


> Oh, doesn't trouble me. My comments are observations rather than concern.


Oh good, I've always though coke was a much better beverage.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> I get that, so what is black music?


What's country music? The Worzels?

It doesn't segregate it brings together and is descriptive.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_music


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Dr Pepper said:


> I think it's because nobody had seen a need. Music is universal. For example you have the Brits, you have the CMA (Country Music Association) awards, both are open to all. *Why MOBO is even needed is beyond me, it's just a PC excerise.*


You clearly don't know much about black history then......


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Ok, I'll bite. Though I am more and more convinced you are on a wind up. MOBO was set up to point out that an awful of white people made an awful lot of money off black music without pointing out that it was black music or recompensing through royalties the black artists that wrote it and created it. It was a celebration and a protest at the same time. Nothing to do with segregation.

And only someone who doesn't recognise their white privilege would ask the question.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

simplysardonic said:


> To be fair, are they popular with anyone?
> 
> *Runs & hides before I get beaten up by Chesney fans*


I got beaten up on FB by Ed Sheeran fans. Lot's of 'OMG', so y'know I'm like, OMG, you are like, sooooo wrong.


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

MollySmith said:


> I got beaten up on FB by Ed Sheeran fans. Lot's of 'OMG', so y'know I'm like, OMG, you are like, sooooo wrong.


I have heard _of_ him, but not heard anything _by_ him.

Hoping to keep it that way


----------



## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Actually, he's a talented songwriter. He's just really really annoying as well.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

simplysardonic said:


> I have heard _of_ him, but not heard anything _by_ him.
> 
> Hoping to keep it that way


Wicked 



Mirandashell said:


> Actually, he's a talented songwriter. He's just really really annoying as well.


I've heard some things and yes, he's not too awful, not my thing but good on him. It was a shame he was after Chic and Barry Gibb, who were amazing. It just felt a little flat but he got a good welcome from his supporters and fans, quoting Shelley...oh wait.. got the main acts muddled up  

Oooh maybe that's the wind up in this thread. We all think we're talking about Corbyn but it's not - that typo in the title isn't a mistake, it's a real thing and we're chatting with Theresa May?:Muted :Nailbiting It's a conspiracy.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Elles said:


> What's country music? The Worzels?
> 
> It doesn't segregate it brings together and is descriptive.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_music


Yes I get it's about black origin and it's open to all, but why the special awards? Aren't we all equal?



Mirandashell said:


> Ok, I'll bite. Though I am more and more convinced you are on a wind up. MOBO was set up to point out that an awful of white people made an awful lot of money off black music without pointing out that it was black music or recompensing through royalties the black artists that wrote it and created it. It was a celebration and a protest at the same time. Nothing to do with segregation.
> 
> And only someone who doesn't recognise their white privilege would ask the question.


An awful lot of people made an awful lot of money off white music as well without pointing out it was white music, and awful lot of white people have been taken advantage off as well, so why the special treatment? The whole music industry is pretty biased in favour of the anyone but the artist no matter their colour or race.


----------



## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

You really really really need to learn some history cos you have no idea what you are talking about at the moment. 

And I'm going to leave it here cos knowing your posting history you aren't prepared to learn anything.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

This is jazz/blues (mobo) written by a white Jewish activist and sung by Billie Holliday whose version cannot be bested imo. An example of why mobo awards are fine, bring people together (sung in an unsegregated club) and is relevant without being accusatory. MOBO is open to people of all ethnicity whether they write or sing it. If you don't have a problem with country music awards, you shouldn't have a problem with mobo imo.


----------



## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Dr Pepper said:


> Yes I get it's about black origin and it's open to all, but why the special awards?* Aren't we all equal?*
> 
> An awful lot of people made an awful lot of money off white music as well without pointing out it was white music, and awful lot of white people have been taken advantage off as well, so why the special treatment? The whole music industry is pretty biased in favour of the anyone but the artist no matter their colour or race.


You are making yourself sound very ignorant. Do YOU think black people have been treated equally to white people over course of history?


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

And now I've had an excuse to link one of my favourite ever, but hugely moving performances, I will leave it there.


----------



## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

I don't think DP is ignorant as such. He just doesn't recognise that he's talking from a position of privilege so has no understanding of the issues involved. Only the privileged ask why it matters.


----------



## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Elles said:


> And now I've had an excuse to link one of my favourite ever, but hugely moving performances, I will leave it there.


Love that version. No-one sang it better than she did.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

labradrk said:


> You are making yourself sound very ignorant. Do YOU think black people have been treated equally to white people over course of history?


Not at all. But we are now in the 21st century. We can't change the past but shouldn't pander to a specific race/colour/creed if we want to move on. We are all equal, unless you think different?


----------



## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

And there he goes, proving my point.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Mirandashell said:


> I don't think DP is ignorant as such. He just doesn't recognise that he's talking from a position of privilege so has no understanding of the issues involved. Only the privileged ask why it matters.


Do you know what, you may be right. But the way I see it today, in 2017, is that we should all be equal and there is no need for race or ethnic specif awards. That's all. Maybe I'm ahead of my time!


----------



## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Dr Pepper said:


> Not at all. But we are now in the 21st century. We can't change the past but shouldn't pander to a specific race/colour/creed if we want to move on. We are all equal, unless you think different?


So you don't believe that there are inequalities based on race because we are now in the 21st century?


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

labradrk said:


> So you don't believe that there are inequalities based on race because we are now in the 21st century?


Not when it comes to the music industry no, not at all.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Dr Pepper said:


> Not when it comes to the music industry no, not at all.


You obviously have zero knowledge of the music industry.

It is getting (the under ground scene and the pop industry leading the way) BUT the gigging scene is still terrible. The music industry is not equal by any stretch of the imagination 

Edited to make my sentence make sense


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

....


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

StormyThai said:


> You obviously have zero knowledge of the music industry.
> 
> It is getting better with the under ground scene and the pop industry than it was BUT the gigging scene is still terrible. The music industry is not equal by any stretch of the imagination


If you say so. Looking at the acts in the charts today though I'd say you are wrong. I think you'll find black artist are very well represented.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Dr Pepper said:


> If you say so. Looking at the acts in the charts today though I'd say you are wrong. I think you'll find black artist are very well represented.


When you are part of the music industry (not big names but a part of it none the less) you don't need to look at the charts to see the inequity


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

StormyThai said:


> When you are part of the music industry (not big names but a part of it none the less) you don't need to look at the charts to see the inequity


Unless you use inequity as a excuse for lack of talent. Big names started as nobodies be they black, white or whatever.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Dr Pepper said:


> Unless you use inequity as a excuse for lack of talent. Big names started as nobodies be they black, white or whatever.


Yes talent helps...but you are clearly clueless of the issue if you think that talent is all that is needed to make it in the music industry.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> Not at all. But we are now in the 21st century. We can't change the past but shouldn't pander to a specific race/colour/creed if we want to move on. We are all equal, unless you think different?


It doesn't. It's not positive discrimination, it's recognising certain styles of music. Anyone can write or play it. Classical music. Country music. Music of Black Origin. They all encompass different, but recognisable styles, with various histories. Nothing wrong in recognising a music heritage. But yes, white people in history have been treated as badly. Children sent up chimneys? Witches? All kinds of horrors, but that's not the point, this is music related.

In this century we can recognise it because we've moved on, so we can have it as an encompassing genre, not always in the charts and give musicians an award. It's open to all ethnicities, it's not racist.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

StormyThai said:


> Yes talent helps...but you are clearly clueless of the issue if you think that talent is all that is needed to make it in the music industry.


You've obviously got personal issues with this so I'll step aside and let you deal with them in your own way.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Elles said:


> It doesn't. It's not positive discrimination, it's recognising certain styles of music. Anyone can write or play it. Classical music. Country music. Music of Black Origin. They all encompass different, but recognisable styles, with various histories. Nothing wrong in recognising a music heritage. But yes, white people in history have been treated as badly. Children sent up chimneys? Witches? All kinds of horrors, but that's not the point, this is music related.
> 
> In this century we can recognise it because we've moved on, so we can have it as an encompassing genre, not always in the charts and give musicians an award. It's open to all ethnicities, it's not racist.


Do you know what, you've convinced me. As I was typing earlier replies I started to realise my previous references to county music (I love county music by the way) were going against me as it's a specific type of music and they have their own awards.

So yes MOBO is ok. I still think however if we had MOWO.......................


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Dr Pepper said:


> You've obviously got personal issues with this so I'll step aside and let you deal with them in your own way.


Can you do me a favour and stop assuming what I have problems with?

I have experience with the music industry (as do a lot of my personal friends) and have seen discrimination with my own eyes (the gigging scene is terrible for sexism and racism), just because it doesn't happen in the open doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

You can insist there is equality within the music industry all you like - it doesn't make it so!


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

StormyThai said:


> Can you do me a favour and stop assuming what I have problems with?
> 
> I have experience with the music industry (as do a lot of my personal friends) and have seen discrimination with my own eyes (the gigging scene is terrible for sexism and racism), just because it doesn't happen in the open doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.
> 
> You can insist there is equality within the music industry all you like - it doesn't make it so!


Surely the music scene demands what is in demand, if you don't fit that profile it's not "ism" of anything, just nobody wants your type of music. What you do then is move and on.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Dr Pepper said:


> Surely the music scene demands what is in demand, if you don't fit that profile it's not "ism" of anything, just nobody wants your type of music. What you do then is move and on.


I repeat - you are clueless about the music industry.

If you wish to learn what it is actually like then try talking to some musicians, producers or sound engineers..you know, the people that live, breath and eat the industry that you think you know.
It is getting better, some areas more than others but there is still discrimination across the board.

-smiles sweetly and walks away-
My OH has said wtf more than once reading your posts on this subject.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Discrimination by who ST? Are you talking about the 'you can't sing, you can't dance, you'll do great' discrimination that puts pretty young thing in groups and throws money behind them, having got them to sign contracts that take 80% plus of anything they earn?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

It's across the board in all walks of the industry (same as everyday life) 
Pay inequalities is a huge sticking point in the industry (race and sex) but even roadies have discrimination happening.

It IS a lot better than it was, but there is still a long way to go before the music industry is equal and only talent matters.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)




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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

:Hilarious

Whoosh.. apparently. :Hilarious


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Dr Pepper said:


> Yes I get it's about black origin and it's open to all, but why the special awards? Aren't we all equal?


@Dr Pepper: There is also, of course, a National Black Police Association (or used to be). Not sure why, or if a 'National White Police Association' would be allowed?


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

kimthecat said: ↑


> "Yes it was his crowd and its not an excuse. As to digs about leftie luvvies , I meant the crowd . Coming from a working class Labour background I despise them . Lots of digs about Tories here too for that matter . "


I have edited my post . i put despise which it OTT and I apologise , Ive already edited it to can't stand.

Again , I meant the crowd . I have used the term in general on this forum before but I have not said this direct to any one member here . Its up to you if you want to take it personally though perhaps I will refrain from using it in future. is it ok to say lefties?



> ="emmaviolet, post: 1064901392, member: 1304329"]I see very few digs at Tory supporters and no name calling.


On this forum ? Are you sure about that ? you might want to try a search using Nazi.
i can give an example if you liked .


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Calvine said:


> @Dr Pepper: There is also, of course, a National Black Police Association (or used to be). Not sure why, or if a 'National White Police Association' would be allowed?


The whole Police Force is a White Police Association.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I don't think there's any need for discrimination here. Working against inequality is always ongoing, whatever that inequality is seen to be. It stirs up hatred and it doesn't matter which 'side' the hatred falls upon. We are all human it seems, until we're a group.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> On this forum ? Are you sure about that ?


She must have rose-tinted spectacles or read very selectively!


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Elles said:


> What's country music? The Worzels?
> 
> It doesn't segregate it brings together and is descriptive.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_music


Hmm, that article says just about every form of music is black origin apart from Country.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

simplysardonic said:


> I have heard _of_ him, but not heard anything _by_ him.
> 
> Hoping to keep it that way


I have to admit I quite like Castle on the Hill. But once you've heard one, they sort of blend together.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Calvine said:


> Not sure they are 'upset'; surprised rather. It rather reminds me tho' of the self-seeking ''celebs'' who use , let's say, an awards ceremony, to spout their hatred of Trump and in so doing get their pictures in the paper and publicity for their recent film/song etc. ''It's all about ME''.


Trump rallys are "Its all about ME". Trump is a shallow egomaniac. The people who speak out against that monster are standing up for the environment, for justice - for common decency. Celebs are using their voice for good.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Did anyone see the Kate Tempest slot at Glastonbury? She absolutely ripped May & the government to shreds

(bad language alert)


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Is that her name? I saw the last half of her set and she was fantastic!


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> May couldn't even get a good deal with the DUP, a party that naturally agrees with her anyway, she didn't need to waste billions of pounds on them, as they wouldn't want to bring her down.
> 
> How is she qualified for the job?


I've already replied to this but wanted to add that I think John McDonnell has the abilities needed to be PM .
I don't agree with his policies but he has what it takes.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> I've already replied to this but wanted to add that I think John McDonnell has the abilities needed to be PM .
> I don't agree with his policies but he has what it takes.


But whether that is a compliment or not depends on ones view of what it takes!


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## kirksandallchins (Nov 3, 2007)

When you see the leaders of the main political parties, it makes you wonder if their members have a death wish when electing them.

From what I have gathered over the last few months, no party seems interested in the good of the country as they're too busy point scoring off each other


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> I've already replied to this but wanted to add that I think John McDonnell has the abilities needed to be PM .
> I don't agree with his policies but he has what it takes.


What sneaky, underhand liar?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

rona said:


> What sneaky, underhand liar?


:Hilarious


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> ...that
> 
> 1. The general election is over and he lost.
> 
> ...


Just what we would expect from that moron, was actually warming to him prior to the election, I now loathe him.


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## Pawscrossed (Jul 2, 2013)

This seems appropriate, not only is this thread reminding me of Ground Hog day, it reminds of Bill Murray in this thread. To loathe anyone you have to know them first.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

DT said:


> Just what we would expect from that moron, was actually warming to him prior to the election, I now loathe him.


Me to, thought he was ok. But now he's behaving like some American evangelical preacher. Thank God (pun intended) he lost the election.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Lawn Tennis Association is trying to ban the singing of "Oh Jeremy Corbyn" at Wimbledon :Hilarious


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

kirksandallchins said:


> too busy point scoring off each other


Not unlike many PF members then!


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Lawn Tennis Association is trying to ban the singing of "Oh Jeremy Corbyn" at Wimbledon :Hilarious


I should think so too. It's not a football match and he's not the Queen.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elles said:


> I should think so too. It's not a football match and he's not the Queen.


They were singing it at a cricket match I don't believe in censorship personally - I hope they do it! lol


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Calvine said:


> Not unlike many PF members then!


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> They were singing it at a cricket match I don't believe in censorship personally - I hope they do it! lol


They can do what they like at a cricket match, I won't see that. 

Trouble with the public singing anything, most of them can't sing and it's an affront to my ears. Plus when it's about a politician, it starts look like brainwashing and fanaticism and makes me uncomfortable. Mob rule and hero worship. Cults. It generally all turns out bad.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elles said:


> They can do what they like at a cricket match, I won't see that.
> 
> Trouble with the public singing anything, most of them can't sing and it's an affront to my ears. Plus when it's about a politician, it starts look like brainwashing and fanaticism and makes me uncomfortable. Mob rule and hero worship. Cults. It generally all turns out bad.


I suppose people should take into consideration peoples hearing. But its not a cult, mob rule or even hero worship from what I've seen & from my own personal experience - its a mass movement against austerity & Corbyn just happens to be the figure head I guess .


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Elles said:


> They can do what they like at a cricket match, I won't see that.
> 
> Trouble with the public singing anything, most of them can't sing and it's an affront to my ears. Plus when it's about a politician, it starts look like brainwashing and fanaticism and makes me uncomfortable. Mob rule and hero worship. Cults. It generally all turns out bad.


I think it's more of a trend t these events, like twitter something trends and then the next new thing comes along . 
people like to be part of something , some genuine but many just pay lip service.

Momentum though , that feels more cult like .


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

kimthecat said:


> I think it's more of a trend t these events, like twitter something trends and then the next new thing comes along .
> people like to be part of something , some genuine but many just pay lip service.
> 
> Momentum though , that feels more cult like .


Or perhaps people can see in Corbyn we now have a real alternative to neoliberalism - just like Bernie Sanders offered people in the USA 

.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I wouldn't have thought Wimbledon would attract an audience would take up the Corbyn chant. The worst that's been heard in the past is the ridiculous screeching of 'Timbo' we had to suffer when Henman was around. If it does happen then I'd reckon it will be more an indication of the general dissatisfaction with politicians and politics in this country at the moment.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Parliament Square right now -


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

That looks like a lot of people.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Mirandashell said:


> That looks like a lot of people.


Apparently its a huge turn out & they're still arriving.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Wow. Let's hope it stays peaceful.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Some of the placards.































































And a money tree! hahaa


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Looks to me like a bunch of idiots who don't believe in democracy. No doubt it'll end in a punch up.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> Looks to me like a bunch of idiots who don't believe in democracy. No doubt it'll end in a punch up.


Theres nothing more democratic then peaceful protest. And there must have been hundreds of political protests since the tories came to power & I haven't heard of any violence


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Dr Pepper said:


> Looks to me like a bunch of idiots who don't believe in democracy. No doubt it'll end in a punch up.


And that doesn't surprise any of us in the slightest. If you want to wind us up, you'll have to try harder than that.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Love the Money Tree!


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

And what have the Conservatives got in common with Tornadoes?

It only takes one to destroy your neighbourhood.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

A few more pics . Blimey, they look like a right bunch of thugs! Particularly the elderly lady wearing the shades

-


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Suggs on stage


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Here's Dr Pepper with his placard


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

There's a good mix of ages and races there. Always a sign we've had just about enough.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

noushka05 said:


> Here's Dr Pepper with his placard
> 
> View attachment 316427


Oh darn I've been caught out. Just hoping it doesn't rain or my placard will run.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

This is my favourite placard.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Jeremy

& more placards summing up the feeling.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

But..but..Brexit was to finish austerity?
Oh, and getting rid of Cameron.

Didn't we send money to EU instead of spending on our NHS?

So as we are heading for the Promised Land, whoever leads the pack?
Why then protests?
.


Dear people, when economy slows down, when currency crashed, debts grow it is fairly obvious it is less money.

Britain was more productive and prosperous before referendum.

Project Fear is reality now.

Maybot, Bojo or even Corbyn cannot change the truth of failing economy.
.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

havoc said:


> I wouldn't have thought Wimbledon would attract an audience would take up the Corbyn chant. The worst that's been heard in the past is the ridiculous screeching of 'Timbo' we had to suffer when Henman was around. If it does happen then I'd reckon it will be more an indication of the general dissatisfaction with politicians and politics in this country at the moment.


I agree . People are very dissatisfied and disillusioned with the current shambles.
it will be interesting to see what happens at Wimbledon ! No football on at the moment , would they sing it or stick to Who ate all the pies and Abide with me ?  Who ate all the pies is one of my favourite songs.

ETA Huge Tories Out demo now , so I think that shows the point that people are dissatisifed with politics and the Tories but not necessarily that everyone thinks Corbyn is the bees knees .


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

TM is still taking the brunt of it. At some point the party is going to have to realise she's not fit for purpose. It won't take much more than a couple of disgruntled back benchers to topple the whole lot.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I've got a sneaky feeling one of my children is there.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

kimthecat said:


> ETA Huge Tories Out demo now , so I think that shows the point that people are dissatisifed with politics and the Tories but not necessarily that everyone thinks Corbyn is the bees knees .


To be fair it's a pointless demonstration. We've just had a general election, just a few weeks ago. The results show that more people want conservatives in power rather than Mr Corbyn. If we were a few years into a government I could see people might want to protest if it's all gone queer. But a couple of weeks? That's just Labour supporters being bitter they lost.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> That's just Labour supporters being bitter they lost.


I really don't think it is. There is huge anger and much of it fuelled by events post election, mostly Grenfell.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Dr Pepper said:


> To be fair it's a pointless demonstration. We've just had a general election, just a few weeks ago. The results show that more people want conservatives in power rather than Mr Corbyn. If we were a few years into a government I could see people might want to protest if it's all gone queer. But a couple of weeks? That's just Labour supporters being bitter they lost.


I'm no Labour supporter, but this is a daft post.

Since the election May & co are under increasing pressure from their shameful conjuring of £1bn to keep themselves in power, having told the nurses they'd love to increase their wages but, ever so sorry, there's just no money available; their response to an election giving no mandate to May's hard Brexit is to carry on as though they got a landslide; austerity is biting harder in light of inflation rising; and the Grenfell tragedy has shone the light on those who put cost savings above safety.

Corbyn & Labour are now ahead in the polls, which shows they've got momentum, and May is a lame duck Prime Minister who could go at any time.

You really think the Labour supporters should sit quietly and let the Tories off the hook? Now is _exactly_ the time for this sort of demonstration!


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Arnie83 said:


> I'm no Labour supporter, but this is a daft post.
> 
> Since the election May & co are under increasing pressure from their shameful conjuring of £1bn to keep themselves in power, having told the nurses they'd love to increase their wages but, ever so sorry, there's just no money available; their response to an election giving no mandate to May's hard Brexit is to carry on as though they got a landslide; austerity is biting harder in light of inflation rising; and the Grenfell tragedy has shone the light on those who put cost savings above safety.
> 
> ...


Are Labour ahead in those same polls that said Mrs May would have a landslide victory just a few weeks ago?

There is a worrying increase in protest against democracy both here and elsewhere. That is the biggest threat we face.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Dr Pepper said:


> To be fair it's a pointless demonstration. We've just had a general election, just a few weeks ago. The results show that more people want conservatives in power rather than Mr Corbyn. If we were a few years into a government I could see people might want to protest if it's all gone queer. But a couple of weeks? That's just Labour supporters being bitter they lost.


Seems that all of Corbyn and co's posturing may not be having quite the desired effect


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> There is a worrying increase in protest against democracy both here and elsewhere. That is the biggest threat we face.


Democracy doesn't mean that if you get the result you want nobody is ever allowed to voice dissent.


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

havoc said:


> Democracy doesn't mean that if you get the result you want nobody is ever allowed to voice dissent.


It's rather more than simply voicing dissent as far as one can see...they seem to think that labour won the election which strikes me as somewhat delusional.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

havoc said:


> Democracy doesn't mean that if you get the result you want nobody is ever allowed to voice dissent.


Didn't say that. But to demonstrate against a general election result just a few days later shows contempt for democracy.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

There was the same March last year. People can march in the uk and believe what they like, so long as it doesn't hurt them or someone else. 

The Conservatives are under pressure to remove the cap, or at least give pay rises to the front line. Police, fire, nursing. The Conservatives won, but people voting for them didn't necessarily agree with everything they're doing.

Marches don't necessarily have much of an effect though.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)




----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sky news coverage of the march with interview with Matt Wrack from the Fire Brigades Union: "_the fire service has been absolutely decimated, cut to pieces by the policies of this government......."





_


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

noushka05 said:


> Sky news coverage of the march with interview with Matt Wrack from the Fire Brigades Union: "_the fire service has been absolutely decimated, cut to pieces by the policies of this government......."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We've got a grand opening of our town's new firestation next week. Not saying there aren't cutbacks but money is being spent where needed.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

The Conservatives are spending money on new buildings and equipment, for the NHS, fire and police. Maybe they need to put more into people too.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Elles said:


> The Conservatives are spending money on new buildings and equipment, for the NHS, fire and police. Maybe they need to put more into people too.


.....but you have to have somewhere for those people to work from.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I don't think it's delusional at all. It's a march against austerity. A march taking place only days after the government had to change a policy to stave off back benchers voting with the opposition, a policy which is fundamentally against the wishes of their new best friends the DUP.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> We've got a grand opening of our town's new firestation next week. Not saying there aren't cutbacks *but money is being spent where needed*.


That's what government would like us to believe, in reality the cuts are having an absolutely devastating affect.

*Cuts to the fire service are putting lives at risk* Andrew Scattergood
Firefighters devastated by what they've seen won't take solace from politicians who've slashed staff numbers and resources and shown such contempt for them

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/15/cuts-fire-service-putting-lives-at-risk


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elles said:


> The Conservatives are spending money on new buildings and equipment, for the NHS, fire and police. Maybe they need to put more into people too.


Boris Johnson closed 3 fire stations in London alone. The service has been decimated right across the country & soon they are going to sell off NHS land & property for private development. . http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/what-naylor-report-everything-explained-10543351


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

noushka05 said:


> That's what government would like us to believe, in reality the cuts are having an absolutely devastating affect.
> 
> *Cuts to the fire service are putting lives at risk* Andrew Scattergood
> Firefighters devastated by what they've seen won't take solace from politicians who've slashed staff numbers and resources and shown such contempt for them
> ...


Oh, ok. I'm going to go and protest next weekend and hopefully the fire station will be closed. That'll help.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Keeping old fire stations doesn't make money. Building new ones does.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> Oh, ok. I'm going to go and protest next weekend and hopefully the fire station will be closed. That'll help.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elles said:


> Keeping old fire stations doesn't make money. Building new ones does.


The government have made massive cuts.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

noushka05 said:


> The government have made massive cuts.
> 
> View attachment 316462


And yet we have a lovely new firestation.

Doesn't it all depend on where those cuts are made? You know, admin, fat cats etc...


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

http://www.thisisthewestcountry.co....ll_for_unused_fire_control_centre_in_Taunton/


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> And yet we have a lovely new firestation.
> 
> Doesn't it all depend on where those cuts are made? You know, admin, fat cats etc...


Why don't you listen to those on the front line? https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/15/cuts-fire-service-putting-lives-at-risk

_Since 2010, more than 10,000 firefighters have been axed, dozens of fire stations have closed, fire engines have been scrapped and levels of emergency rescue equipment has been slashed. In London, 10 fire stations have been closed, 27 fire engines axed and more than 600 firefighter posts have been cut. Every year response times are increasing and 2015-2016 saw a 15% rise in fire deaths compared with the year before_.

............................................................


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

noushka05 said:


> Why don't you listen to those on the front line? https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/15/cuts-fire-service-putting-lives-at-risk
> 
> _Since 2010, more than 10,000 firefighters have been axed, dozens of fire stations have closed, fire engines have been scrapped and levels of emergency rescue equipment has been slashed. In London, 10 fire stations have been closed, 27 fire engines axed and more than 600 firefighter posts have been cut. Every year response times are increasing and 2015-2016 saw a 15% rise in fire deaths compared with the year before_.
> 
> ............................................................


I listen to my two clients who are firefighters and are chuffed to bits with their new station. Real life not internet. One of them actually was involved with putting out our house fire.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> I listen to my two clients who are firefighters and are chuffed to bits with their new station. Real life not internet. One of them actually was involved with putting out our house fire.


Oh what a surprise, another convenient anecdote:Hilarious


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

They need to stop wasting millions. (Government and councils). They spend money, but too much is wasted and if they do spend more it needs to go where it's needed. The amount of taxpayer's money that is wasted is criminal.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Boris Johnson closed 3 fire stations in London alone. The service has been decimated right across the country & soon they are going to sell off NHS land & property for private development. . http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/what-naylor-report-everything-explained-10543351


The point of selling that land is to pump the proceeds into the remaining ones to make them more efficient. It's also worth noting that Naylor used to head up a hospital, so he has a pretty good idea what he's talking about.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> The government have made massive cuts.
> 
> View attachment 316462


The number of firefighters has been cut by about 20% since 2010, but the amount of incidents attended has dropped 21%


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

noushka05 said:


> Oh what a surprise, another convenient anecdote:Hilarious


Well that's what happens in the real world, speaking to real people doing the real job.

Just because it's not on Facebook doesn't make it any less true, the opposite is probably true.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MiffyMoo said:


> The point of selling that land is to pump the proceeds into the remaining ones to make them more efficient. It's also worth noting that Naylor used to head up a hospital, so he has a pretty good idea what he's talking about.


No it isn't. Dr Bob Gill explains clearly what this is about.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MiffyMoo said:


> The number of firefighters has been cut by about 20% since 2010, but the amount of incidents attended has dropped 21%





Dr Pepper said:


> Well that's what happens in the real world, speaking to real people doing the real job.
> 
> Just because it's not on Facebook doesn't make it any less true, the opposite is probably true.


I suppose this is a load of rubbish then?


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> No it isn't. Dr Bob Gill explains clearly what this is about.


https://fullfact.org/health/what-is-naylor-review/


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> I suppose this is a load of rubbish then?


https://fullfact.org/economy/labour-manifesto-2017-firefighters/


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

noushka05 said:


> I suppose this is a load of rubbish then?


I don't need to watch YouTube videos made by god knows who when I have actual firefighters to speak to face to face.

Each to their own though.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

The firefighter I know is a member of an exclusive club and as passionate about food health as RPH. He never mentions cuts. Even if he thought it, it's probably not wise to discuss it with the public, if he wants to get on.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MiffyMoo said:


> https://fullfact.org/economy/labour-manifesto-2017-firefighters/


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/15/cuts-fire-service-putting-lives-at-risk

Although an incident of this nature is unprecedented, fires of this size are not. For seven years now, firefighters have been raising concerns and campaigning against cuts. *We have argued that although the number of fire incidents has steadily reduced as a result of the prevention activities of firefighters*, the size of fires and the complicated incidents we attend have not grown smaller. Unfortunately, an incident such as Grenfell Tower only reinforces this point.

Since 2010, more than 10,000 firefighters have been axed, dozens of fire stations have closed, fire engines have been scrapped and levels of emergency rescue equipment has been slashed. In London, 10 fire stations have been closed, 27 fire engines axed and more than 600 firefighter posts have been cut. Every year response times are increasing and 2015-2016 saw a 15% rise in fire deaths compared with the year before.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> I don't need to watch YouTube videos made by god knows who when I have actual firefighters to speak to face to face.
> 
> Each to their own though.


Its the Fire Brigades Union


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Elles said:


> The firefighter I know is a member of an exclusive club and as passionate about food health as RPH. He never mentions cuts. Even if he thought it, it's probably not wise to discuss it with the public, if he wants to get on.


So he's happy to "get on". Not looking for a job stacking shelves in Tesco then!!

I think the problem is bleeding hearts take up a cause that doesn't need taking up. People don't go into the emergency services for the money, but for the vocation. If firefighters were paid £100,000 per annum you wouldn't have the right people doing the job.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

noushka05 said:


> Its the Fire Brigades Union


And.......


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Dr Pepper said:


> And.......


Unions are paragons of virtue and never have an agenda.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

£469 million squandered. Did you read my link? Money spent on unused buildings. Plus on top of that, money spent on bribes to get unused buildings used. Plus on top of that, money that will be squandered on these unused buildings for the next few years. That's just from one project. 

How much more waste is there? We should be saving money in some areas and ploughing money into others. Clearly there need to be more firefighters, but they aren't leaving due to poor pay. The system is reducing their numbers, they aren't.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/15/cuts-fire-service-putting-lives-at-risk
> 
> Although an incident of this nature is unprecedented, fires of this size are not. For seven years now, firefighters have been raising concerns and campaigning against cuts. *We have argued that although the number of fire incidents has steadily reduced as a result of the prevention activities of firefighters*, the size of fires and the complicated incidents we attend have not grown smaller. Unfortunately, an incident such as Grenfell Tower only reinforces this point.
> 
> Since 2010, more than 10,000 firefighters have been axed, dozens of fire stations have closed, fire engines have been scrapped and levels of emergency rescue equipment has been slashed. In London, 10 fire stations have been closed, 27 fire engines axed and more than 600 firefighter posts have been cut. Every year response times are increasing and 2015-2016 saw a 15% rise in fire deaths compared with the year before.


Yet LFB says there's no resource or staffing issues


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MiffyMoo said:


> Unions are paragons of virtue and never have an agenda.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> View attachment 316470
> 
> 
> View attachment 316472


Aaand, the rest of what the Pope had to say:

"In our advanced capitalistic societies, trade unions risk losing their prophetic nature and becoming too similar to the institutions and the powers they should be criticizing. With the passing of time Unions have ended up looking too much like political parties" he said.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Dr Pepper said:


> Looks to me like a bunch of idiots.


Wrong!

Idiots can be found being led by this individual￼...

Theresa May, Queen of the plague rats.

http://data:image/jpeg;base64,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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MiffyMoo said:


> Aaand, the rest of what the Pope had to say:
> 
> "In our advanced capitalistic societies, trade unions risk losing their prophetic nature and becoming too similar to the institutions and the powers they should be criticizing. With the passing of time Unions have ended up looking too much like political parties" he said.


I hope all trade unions stand up for the members like the FBU are doing - & the labour party finally represents their interests as it was set up to do.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Zaros said:


> Wrong!
> 
> Idiots can be found being led by this individual￼...
> 
> ...


I think the masses are finally waking up to this pathetic excuse of a human being - & her greedy mates!


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> I hope all trade unions stand up for the members like the FBU are doing - & the labour party finally represents their interests as it was set up to do.


I 100% agree with what the Pope said - the Unions used to be a force for good, and absolutely nobody can deny what they have done for workers rights. But they are far too politicised now and Don't always work for the best interests of their members.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> I think the masses are finally waking up to this pathetic excuse of a human being - & her greedy mates!


Except here is the latest poll, so it looks more like people are being rather put off by Corbyn and McDonnell's grandstanding and Tories are regaining ground again


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I think people who aren't labour voters or fans of unions and Corbyn are hoping the current government will listen and change some of their more controversial policies. They already have changed some, which probably gives people hope. I'm not holding my breath myself.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MiffyMoo said:


> I 100% agree with what the Pope said - the Unions used to be a force for good, and absolutely nobody can deny what they have done for workers rights. But they are far too politicised now and Don't always work for the best interests of their members.


When haven't they been politicised? lol The trade unions are the backbone of the labour party & the labour party is supposed to represent working people.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

noushka05 said:


> I think the masses are finally waking up to this pathetic excuse of a human being - & her greedy mates!


No, the masses have already voted. Get used to it.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

The masses don't like our fire service being used as political pawns. The opposition need to be careful not to be seen to be doing so.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MiffyMoo said:


> Except here is the latest poll, so it looks more like people are being rather put off by Corbyn and McDonnell's grandstanding and Tories are regaining ground again
> 
> View attachment 316473


Well that's one poll.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> When haven't they been politicised? lol The trade unions are the backbone of the labour party & the labour party is supposed to represent working people.


When they put their politics above the good of their members, then they need to give themselves a talking to. Maybe you should take up your argument with the Pope


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> I think the masses are finally waking up to this pathetic excuse of a human being - & her greedy mates!


Of course they are, Noush'

And their blinkered accomplices are also feeling rather uncomfortable about the rising change of attitudes too.

Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside
And it is ragin'.
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Elles said:


> The masses don't like our fire service being used as political pawns. The opposition need to be careful not to be seen to be doing so.


From experience no they don't.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Well that's one poll.
> 
> View attachment 316474


Fair enough. Would be interesting to see which demographic both companies used


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MiffyMoo said:


> *When they put their politics above the good of their members*,* then they need to give* *themselves a talking to*. Maybe you should take up your argument with the Pope


From what I'm seeing their members are glad the unions are speaking out in their best interests against these devastating & dangerous cuts & the pay cap.



Zaros said:


> Of course they are, Noush'
> 
> And their blinkered accomplices are also feeling rather uncomfortable about the rising change of attitudes too.
> 
> ...


.They are getting rather desperate & defensive .

Times are a-changing indeed! And not before time. Millions of people are really suffering under this government, 7 years of relentless austerity with worse to come they've had enough. This mass movement has given people hope - hope is all we've got left lol

That's a great poem by the way - very powerful. Who wrote it?


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> From what I'm seeing their members are glad the unions are speaking out in their best interests against these devastating & dangerous cuts & the pay cap.
> 
> .They are getting rather desperate & defensive .
> 
> ...


At no point have I said they shouldn't, but I suspect this is another point we will ever agree any point on


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MiffyMoo said:


> Fair enough. Would be interesting to see which demographic both companies used


This might interest you as well.

Just 2 years ago the Tories won the 30-somethings vote in the 2015 GE by 36%-34%. In 2017 GE Corbyn beat May by 55% -29%


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

You know that the rational part of the human brain isn't fully developed until over the age of 25?


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> This mass movement has given people hope - hope is all we've got left lol


The essence of propaganda consists in winning people over to an idea so sincerely, so vitally, that in the end they succumb to it utterly and can never escape from it.

Goebbels


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> This might interest you as well.
> 
> Just 2 years ago the Tories won the 30-somethings vote in the 2015 GE by 36%-34%. In 2017 GE Corbyn beat May by 55% -29%
> View attachment 316475
> ...


Umm, ok.


----------



## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> That's a great poem by the way - very powerful. Who wrote it?


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MiffyMoo said:


> The essence of propaganda consists in winning people over to an idea so sincerely, so vitally, that in the end they succumb to it utterly and can never escape from it.
> 
> Goebbels


It is astonishing how people fall for propaganda: Strong & stable. Coalition of chaos. Strong economic plan. Greenest government ever. We're all in it together. There is no magic money tree.

The Big Lie, again by Goebbels, a well used tactic of the Tories & their billionaire mates in the press.










Nothing has changed.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Satori said:


>


Oh I didn't realise. Thank you Satori.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> It is astonishing how people fall for propaganda: Strong & stable. Coalition of chaos. Strong economic plan. Greenest government ever. We're all in it together. There is no magic money tree.
> 
> The Big Lie, again by Goebbels, a well used tactic of the Tories & their billionaire mates in the press.
> 
> ...


There are only a couple of people on here who are so invested in their party that they simply cannot hear any dissent. That is not the Tories on here. I think it's safe to say that you have utterly succumbed to Corbynism


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MiffyMoo said:


> There are only a couple of people on here who are so invested in their party that they simply cannot hear any dissent. That is not the Tories on here. I think it's safe to say that you have utterly succumbed to Corbynism


Hahaaa no of course it isn't. The tories on here are outraged at the terrible things this government is doing, getting into bed with the DUP extremists was the last straw

( ETA I know some who have been tory supporters are genuinely disillusioned by the government x )

I succumbed to environmentalism actually  So I was always opposed to neoliberalism & its austerity long before I'd heard of Corbyn. I'm grateful to him & to politicians like Caroline Lucas ( & Bernie Sanders in the USA) who are standing up against this dreadful ideology & pushing for a better world. If people don't wake up soon it will be too late to save our living planet.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)




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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-as-pm-negatively-poll?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

How did the anti tory march end ? No violence i hope .
Wonder if Corbyn turned up at the green day concert at Hyde park ! 

Mrs may might be there singing Boulevard of broken dreams ,


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/

Its from last Monday









*Panelbase/Sunday Times - CON 41%, LAB 46%, LDEM 6%*
26 JUN 2017
There's normally a somewhat quite period in terms of voting intention after an election. There's just been an actual vote, newspapers have blown all their polling budget during the campaign and even pollsters have to have a holiday. Sample quotas and weights all have to be rejigged as well (that applies even when polls have got an election correct - most polls' quotas or weights include voting at the previous election, so 2015 targets all need replacing with 2017 targets).

We've had two Survation polls earlier this month, both showing Labour leads. Yesterday's Sunday Times also had a new Panelbase poll, their first since the general election, and also showed Labour ahead. Topline figures there are CON 41%(-3), LAB 46%(+5), LDEM 6%(-2), changes are from the actual election result (or at least, the Great British vote share at the general election - the vast majority of opinion polls cover Great Britain only, not Great Britain and Northern Ireland).

It's an interesting rhetorical question to ponder how much of the shift in public opinion since the election is because of the general election result (Theresa May's figures have dropped now she is the PM who called a snap election and lost her majority, Jeremy Corbyn's have shot up now he is a leader who deprived the Tories of a majority when he'd been so widely written off), and how much is the continuation of trends that were already there in the general election campaign? In other words, if the election had been a week later, would the trend towards Labour have continued and would they have been the largest party (or the Tories less able to form a viable government?). We'll never know for sure.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> That's a great poem by the way - very powerful. Who wrote it?


He was born Robert Allen Zimmerman and became a very influencial song writer whose timeless work has spanned almost 60 years

He is so influential the late music chameleon, Mr David Bowie, wrote a song about him.

(Song For Bob Dylan) _Excerpt
_
Oh, hear this Robert Zimmerman
I wrote a song for you
About a strange young man called Dylan
With a voice like sand and glue
Some words had truthful vengeance
That could pin us to the floor
Brought a few more people on
And put the fear in a whole lot more.

No doubt Bob will be another who's denounced as a fraud and fakester. ￼


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Dr Pepper said:


> Didn't say that. But to demonstrate against a general election result just a few days later shows contempt for democracy.


Are you suggesting that nothing has changed since the election?

How long a period after a general election should people allow to pass before they voice dissent with what's happening?

And of course it still depends on what you mean by democracy. More people voted for parties who oppose continued 'austerity' than for those who proposed it. Should the majority just keep quiet?


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

MiffyMoo said:


> I think it's safe to say that you have utterly succumbed to Corbynism


Noush has been just as passionate on here for many years before anyone even knew Corbyn existed. I've clashed with her often but always respected her. She can be extremely annoying but I've never in all those years seen her resort to personal comment or insult about other members though she's put up with plenty thrown in her direction. I don't get the feeling she'd 'succumb' to anything


----------



## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> Oh I didn't realise. Thank you Satori.


Then it is possible that you are not familiar with his other works from that period. That would surprise me because it was the peak of his lyrical brilliance. If you haven't heard them then try 'With God on our side', 'The lonesome battle of Hattie Carol', 'Who killed Davey Moore', 'It's alright Ma (I'm only bleeding)' and 'Gates of Eden'. I am sure you would be bowled over.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

havoc said:


> I don't think it's delusional at all.


_Thinking Labour won the election; that is clearly what I said was delusional_, no matter what or whom they are protesting about. Labour did not win.


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Dr Pepper said:


> Oh, ok. I'm going to go and protest next weekend and hopefully the fire station will be closed. That'll help.


No, don't do that! I thought you were guest speaker at the grand opening: you have to be there.


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Dr Pepper said:


> Didn't say that. But to demonstrate against a general election result just a few days later shows contempt for democracy.


The same thing happened after the EU referendum...wrong result, not happy, must have another.


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Elles said:


> Marches don't necessarily have much of an effect though.


The main effect they have is to put even more pressure on an already overstretched service, ie the Police (one of the things they are supposedly protesting about ).


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

MiffyMoo said:


> There are only a couple of people on here who are so invested in their party that they simply cannot hear any dissent. That is not the Tories on here. I think it's safe to say that you have utterly succumbed to Corbynism


Yes, I sometimes wonder if the suspects are Labour party 'plants'!


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Despite the chaos any change or back tracking on cuts etc is for the good , I believe the back stabber Gove is on The Andrew Marr show call for an end to austerity . 
Still has plans to be PM I suspect . Gove v Corbyn one day , eek ! i might even vote Corbyn


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Calvine said:


> Thinking Labour won the election; that is clearly what I said was delusional, no matter what or whom they are protesting about. Labour did not win.


Labour's position improved and the Tories was weakened - against all given odds. It's given people hope and the will to keep going.



Calvine said:


> The same thing happened after the EU referendum...wrong result, not happy, must have another.


Unlike the referendum we will have another election, the only question is when. I don't know what the result will be but I'll have an opinion just like everyone else and I won't have to like how things turn out..

The election was a red herring in the bigger picture. All May did by calling it was bring forward an inevitable rise in dissatisfaction. Things are, were always, going to get tough and she needed her position secured because of home affairs - not Brexit. On top of incredibly poor judgement she's been very unlucky. Terrorist attacks and especially Grenfell have given people a hook on which to hang their anger but they were getting angry anyway.


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> the back stabber Gove


There was a guy who worked in the local bank (asst manager) who looked exactly like him and my son, when small, always called him ''Mr Weasel''.


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

havoc said:


> Labour's position improved and the Tories was weakened -


I'm not dim: I understand, believe me, but after the election they were saying that they won. What bit of my post don't you understand? You seem to deliberately misunderstand the point.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Calvine said:


> I'm not dim: I understand, believe me, but after the election they were saying that they won. What bit of my post don't you understand? You seem to deliberately misunderstand the point.


I'm not deliberately misunderstanding it, I'm watching whats' happening with no particular axe to grind either way and trying to explain why supporters of losing party are celebrating. Six months ago I'd have agreed with the idea that Labour were unelectable - different story now and they can smell victory.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> There are only a couple of people on here who are so invested in their party that they simply cannot hear any dissent. That is not the Tories on here. I think it's safe to say that you have utterly succumbed to Corbynism


Strange, you highlighting that as an issue when people can read the posts which show how incorrect you are. That says something itself doesn't it.

Labour is a mess, Tories are a mess, UK's a mess. Once people can agree on that maybe they can look at the future and ways to fix it. Don't see much hope though.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Hahaaa no of course it isn't. The tories on here are outraged at the terrible things this government is doing, getting into bed with the DUP extremists was the last straw
> 
> ( ETA I know some who have been tory supporters are genuinely disillusioned by the government x )
> 
> I succumbed to environmentalism actually  So I was always opposed to neoliberalism & its austerity long before I'd heard of Corbyn. I'm grateful to him & to politicians like Caroline Lucas ( & Bernie Sanders in the USA) who are standing up against this dreadful ideology & pushing for a better world. If people don't wake up soon it will be too late to save our living planet.


From what I see, the majority have spoken out about their disillusionment with policies and actions that they disagree with


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Strange, you highlighting that as an issue when people can read the posts which show how incorrect you are. That says something itself doesn't it.
> 
> Labour is a mess, Tories are a mess, UK's a mess. Once people can agree on that maybe they can look at the future and ways to fix it. Don't see much hope though.


Please point out where I have been incorrect. I will be more than happy to discuss with you


----------



## Guest (Jul 2, 2017)

Elles said:


> You know that the rational part of the human brain isn't fully developed until over the age of 25?


True, and it may keep developing even till you are thirty. On the other hand when you get older, brain start deteriorating, especially memory. Would that explain why Tories got most support from oldest age group (70+)? Here is the link...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2596698/



MiffyMoo said:


> The essence of propaganda consists in winning people over to an idea so sincerely, so vitally, that in the end they succumb to it utterly and can never escape from it. Goebbels


 Yes, I agree. The benefits of Brexit were pure propaganda and now despite the fact that not a single benefit seem to left, some still believe that it was a good decision, which will bring all sorts of goodies for the people. But hey, that´s human nature for you. People believe what they want to. If someone believes the earth is flat and the world was created a few thousand years ago at this day and age, no fact will make that person change his/her opinion.



havoc said:


> Noush has been just as passionate on here for many years before anyone even knew Corbyn existed. I've clashed with her often but always respected her. She can be extremely annoying but I've never in all those years seen her resort to personal comment or insult about other members though she's put up with plenty thrown in her direction. I don't get the feeling she'd 'succumb' to anything


I agree with you. I can´t understand how Noushka remains so calm and polite. I have much shorter fuse and I will not forget deliberate insults and cruelty against "innocent" people that easily.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

They didn't believe it. That's why the Tories almost lost the election. They didn't believe Labour either. That's why they did lose the election.

I think older people worry about a return to strikes and powerful trade unions. Ordinary people suffered a lot in those times. They weren't worried about getting credit for the latest mobile, they were worried about how long they'd be sat in the dark, or when the rubbish would be collected. I think they see Corbyn and the unions as representative of those times and the more militant left. His shouty speeches remind me a bit of Arthur Scargill, though Arthur had a megaphone if anything, not a microphone, and needed to shout. Scargill's background was a bit different too of course.

Still a lot of the older, poorer people working dead end jobs, recognise the cushty times for many public sector workers. Bad teachers that can't be sacked, lazy council workers leaning on shovels and brooms. That sort of thing. The young have never seen it. The old don't want to go back to it.

Trade unions put workers first not the environment too. Although workers need representatives, especially if they're poorly treated, the extremists and activists do need tempering by the more moderate, as do the greedy.

We don't want extremes either way. We need something different. I think that's why it's nearer 50/50 and has been for a while. There's nothing moderate for a majority to get behind at the moment.



noushka05 said:


> It is astonishing how people fall for propaganda: Strong & stable. Coalition of chaos. Strong economic plan. Greenest government ever. We're all in it together. There is no magic money tree.
> 
> The Big Lie, again by Goebbels, a well used tactic of the Tories & their billionaire mates in the press.
> 
> ...


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Elles said:


> There's nothing moderate for a majority to get behind at the moment


That's absolutely the nub of it.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Elles said:


> They didn't believe it. That's why the Tories almost lost the election. They didn't believe Labour either. That's why they did lose the election.
> 
> I think older people worry about a return to strikes and powerful trade unions. Ordinary people suffered a lot in those times. They weren't worried about getting credit for the latest mobile, they were worried about how long they'd be sat in the dark, or when the rubbish would be collected. I think they see Corbyn and the unions as representative of those times and the more militant left. His shouty speeches remind me a bit of Arthur Scargill, though Arthur had a megaphone if anything, not a microphone, and needed to shout. Scargill's background was a bit different too of course.
> 
> ...


I remember when I lived in Blackpool, a million years ago. The biggest employer was the civil service and I was always so jealous when people told me how cushty their jobs were and how much they were paid. I worked for a private company who made sure I worked all my hours and I think I got £70 a week. I had to take a second job at a pub as well


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Or perhaps people can see in Corbyn we now have a real alternative to neoliberalism - just like Bernie Sanders offered people in the USA
> 
> .


Whats southern fried chicken go to do with it


----------



## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> They were singing it at a cricket match I don't believe in censorship personally - I hope they do it! lol


I'm going next week and if there's a chant, I will join in.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

havoc said:


> That's absolutely the nub of it.


Moderate middle, concentrated on economy.
But we already had Tory Light Cameron and Blair ....
People got fed up with blurred lines....
So here we are ...

History might actually in years to come show Cameron as not the worst of Tories, quite moderate and if not that disaster of referendum that undid all what was positive....

Then Blair and the disaster of that war...


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> I'm going next week and if there's a chant, I will join in.


Try not to swoon if he turns up.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4657086/Jeremy-Corbyn-says-Labour-government-waiting.html

*Jeremy Corbyn makes his female fans swoon as he holds rally in Amber Rudd's marginal constituency before leading anti-austerity march in London*

Not a feminist paper then. :Hilarious Not sure whether to feel insulted on behalf of all the perfectly sensible women who are inspired by the Labour leader. Even if I do think they're wrong.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> Moderate middle, concentrated on economy.
> But we already had Tory Light Cameron and Blair ....
> People got fed up with blurred lines....
> So here we are ...
> ...


I don't think 'people' got fed up with it. They didn't like the Iraq war and Cameron resigned. Brexit doesn't mean people wanted extreme domestic policies, they wanted rid of what they thought of as extreme Eu policies and control.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Elles said:


> I don't think 'people' got fed up with it. They didn't like the Iraq war and Cameron resigned. Brexit doesn't mean people wanted extreme domestic policies, they wanted rid of what they thought of as extreme Eu policies and control.


Thought a bit wrongly, as obviously we all could vote in EU elections and UK had say and input into EU laws.

UK was not in position of say: Latvia in Soviet Union.
Of course the war was a disaster.
Of course Cameron had to resign after losing what he promised to win.
Should have been browbeaten to pit it on the table in the first place.

Blair made grave error. Cameron the same.
What put voters off . EU is just politicians, just as bad as our own.

I do not like or trust them more than ours.
On contrary being in EU gave us more control than staying out.

Not to mention better for our economy.

Why would one want self made recession?

Of course people would take to protests etc...
People were lied to.

The worst that might happen to Corbyn is actually being elected PM.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

cheekyscrip said:


> The worst that might happen to Corbyn is actually being elected PM.


A bit like when Mr Blair won, you could see him thinking "shit, I've actually got to do this now".


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> Moderate middle, concentrated on economy.
> But we already had Tory Light Cameron and Blair ....
> People got fed up with blurred lines....
> So here we are ...
> ...


I wonder if any leader has left office without their supporters being thoroughly annoyed with them.

I never thought I would vote Labour, but did so, purely to get the Tories out post Thatcher. I was also very pro Cameron, but he turned out to be another great showman, but not very good when it came to the issues. I felt so very let down by him.

Maybe we should stop voting in the ones who are great at the PR side, and go for the grafter instead. Are there any?


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> Of course Cameron had to resign after losing what he promised to win


No, he should have attempted to be a decent human being and worked through until the end of his term. Not gone "oops, oh well I'm off on holiday, good luck!"


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Dr Pepper said:


> A bit like when Mr Blair won, you could see him thinking "shit, I've actually got to do this now".


I kind of feel that Trump felt that as well


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

MiffyMoo said:


> I kind of feel that Trump felt that as well


Na, Mr Trump totally believed in himself and his abilities as President. However he may now have that "oh crap what have I done look"!!


----------



## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

MiffyMoo said:


> I remember when I lived in Blackpool, a million years ago. The biggest employer was the civil service and I was always so jealous when people told me how cushty their jobs were and how much they were paid. I worked for a private company who made sure I worked all my hours and I think I got £70 a week. I had to take a second job at a pub as well


Interesting. OH worked for the civil service and wasn't particularly well paid if compared with doing a similar job within the private sector. What kept him there, apart from the fact it was a very interesting job, was it was a job for life and a good pension when he retired. As time passed civil servants wages were kept lower, 1% each year if he was lucky, then pay freezes. Not long after he retired the conditions of the pensions were changed so now it's lower wages, not a job for life and a poorer pension.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Siskin said:


> Interesting. OH worked for the civil service and wasn't particularly well paid if compared with doing a similar job within the private sector. What kept him there, apart from the fact it was a very interesting job, was it was a job for life and a good pension when he retired. As time passed civil servants wages were kept lower, 1% each year if he was lucky, then pay freezes. Not long after he retired the conditions of the pensions were changed so now it's lower wages, not a job for life and a poorer pension.


We were quite young (I was 20), so I guess that the CS starting wages were better than private sector


----------



## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I started in 1969 as a clerical assistant (the lowest of the low) and my monthly pay was £28.

I had been working at what was then called the Midlands bank for £7.10s a week, so a bit of a pay cut. BUT, the civil service paid men and women equally and women could do the same jobs as the men. This certainly didn't happen in the bank where the women were paid less, had the boring jobs and non of the staff perks the men had.

Those were the days


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

cheekyscrip said:


> Cameron as not the worst of Tories


Well, he had the decency to step down after the Brexit result and admit he 'was not the right person to take the UK out of the EU'. But then he was replaced by TM (another remainer) which kind of startled me at the time. But I have to say, nothing shocks me now.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

MiffyMoo said:


> Maybe we should stop voting in the ones who are great at the PR side, and go for the grafter instead


Don't think anyone could accuse TM of being great at PR. I'm also not so sure Corbyn would be. he's very good at the human touch but I do wonder how long that wiould be enough.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Siskin said:


> I started in 1969 as a clerical assistant (the lowest of the low) and my monthly pay was £28.
> 
> I had been working at what was then called the Midlands bank for £7.10s a week, so a bit of a pay cut. BUT, the civil service paid men and women equally and women could do the same jobs as the men. This certainly didn't happen in the bank where the women were paid less, had the boring jobs and non of the staff perks the men had.
> 
> Those were the days


I'm impressed, despite the low pay, that was very progressive of the CS


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

havoc said:


> Don't think anyone could accuse TM of being great at PR. I'm also not so sure Corbyn would be. he's very good at the human touch but I do wonder how long that wiould be enough.


As my mum says, all mouth and no trousers.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

MiffyMoo said:


> As my mum says, all mouth and no trousers.


It would be very dangerous for his opponents to write him off like that. He's done much better for much longer than many thought possible and he's getting great rehearsal time.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> Please point out where I have been incorrect. I will be more than happy to discuss with you


This very thread, your own comment.. Yes, people pushing Corbyn but the tories also have their proponents although they seem to ignore far more facts. Maybe that has to do with they infrequently provide their own.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

havoc said:


> It would be very dangerous for his opponents to write him off like that. He's done much better for much longer than many thought possible and he's getting great rehearsal time.


She says that in general. Doubt she even knows who he is, given she lives in SA


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Goblin said:


> This very thread, your own comment.. Yes, people pushing Corbyn but the tories also have their proponents although they seem to ignore far more facts. Maybe that has to do with they infrequently provide their own.


So show me exactly which ones and I'll address


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

MiffyMoo said:


> No, he should have attempted to be a decent human being and worked through until the end of his term. Not gone "oops, oh well I'm off on holiday, good luck!"


Obviously he had plans for Remain, he did not believe in Brexit so clearly could not be expected to deliver. Had to allow Brexiters to take the lead.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Projections aren't facts and even the biggest Tory fan hasn't been close to the Corbyn hero worship. 

We haven't left the Eu yet. When we do, I hope we can arrange our own trade deals instead of relying on Europe, although trade deals aren't the be all and end all. I hope we can be stronger on climate and environmental issues. That we can be even more proactive on pay and equality. That we can give our fisheries quotas in our own waters. That our farmers can receive fair prices instead of subsidies. That we can move towards more world friendly farming practices. That we can ban chemicals without asking the Eu. That we can protect people of all nationalities.

That we can lead the way, not bend the knee.

Now, how to get rid of Mrs May's fracking Tories, including Boris the Buffoon and others and bring down Corbyn's leftie loons.

We need a For the All, not the many or the few.

I'm still not holding my breath.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> Obviously he had plans for Remain, he did not believe in Brexit so clearly could not be expected to deliver. Had to allow Brexiters to take the lead.


True, but he really dumped us in it


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Elles said:


> Projections aren't facts and even the biggest Tory fan hasn't been close to the Corbyn hero worship.
> 
> We haven't left the Eu yet. When we do, I hope we can arrange our own trade deals instead of relying on Europe, although trade deals aren't the be all and end all. I hope we can be stronger on climate and environmental issues. That we can be even more proactive on pay and equality. That we can give our fisheries quotas in our own waters. That our farmers can receive fair prices instead of subsidies. That we can move towards more world friendly farming practices. That we can ban chemicals without asking the Eu. That we can protect people of all nationalities.
> 
> ...


The problem is that you will never please all, so the next best effort is to please the majority


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> The problem is that you will never please all, so the next best effort is to please the majority


Like you said we need a grafter. One who gives a damn, but is maybe a bit more moderate in their aims I think.

Oh and a party that agrees with them.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Elles said:


> Like you said we need a grafter. One who gives a damn, but is maybe a bit more moderate in their aims I think.
> 
> Oh and a party that agrees with them.


It would be so lovely to have a party that are just getting on with the job, rather than the constant undermining by certain members who are convinced that they would be far better at the job, thereby constantly undermining the leader. Fair enough, if the leader is doing a rubbish job, then deal with it, but put your ego aside and get on with the job that the public have no choice than to entrust to you to do.

Honestly, if any of us behaved like they do at work, we'd be out on our ear


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

MrsZee said:


> Yes, I agree. The benefits of Brexit were pure propaganda and now despite the fact that not a single benefit seem to left, some still believe that it was a good decision, which will bring all sorts of goodies for the people. But hey, that´s human nature for you. People believe what they want to. If someone believes the earth is flat and the world was created a few thousand years ago at this day and age, no fact will make that person change his/her opinion.


So to paraphrase, anybody who holds a belief not in accord with your own is a deluded superstitious fool. Your arrogance is truly magnificent.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Satori said:


> So to paraphrase, anybody who holds a belief not in accord with your own is a deluded superstitious fool. Your arrogance is truly magnificent.


O, lordy!!! Kettle! Pot! ( cannot say anymore in fear of offending).

Looks like we have this " Monday tomorrow" cloud descending...
Big tinto de verano required.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> True, but he really dumped us in it


Yup, but that was going to happen whatever he did once the Leave vote won. He had firmly backed Remain so would not be a credible PM to oversee Leave (as why would anyone who had voted Leave trust him), and the Leave campaign didn't have any plans anyway - well, other than backtrack from as many of their campaign soundbites as soon and as far as possible.

So going up that particular creek sans paddle was a nailed on guarantee whatever happened.


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2017)

MiffyMoo said:


> The essence of propaganda consists in winning people over to an idea so sincerely, so vitally, that in the end they succumb to it utterly and can never escape from it.
> Goebbels





Satori said:


> So to paraphrase, anybody who holds a belief not in accord with your own is a deluded superstitious fool. Your arrogance is truly magnificent.


Maybe you missed MiffyMoo´s quote, as I merely repeated her message, because I agreed with her the essence of propaganda. MiffyMoo used that to define us, who support Corbyn and I to define those, who supported Brexit. I base my claim firstly on the the facts that the original campaigners (eg. Farage) have openly said their "slogans" for Brexit were not truthfull (=that is a lie to me) and the statements of EU have not been true either. Usually people change their opinions once they find out that they were lied to, but in this case that has not happened. That is what MiffyMoo's quote was so apposite to this situation. If it sounds harsh, well, I merely quoted it. 

Secondly why I think the same quote cannot be used for Corbyn is that his campaigners are using concrete examples all the time, not mere slogans like May (e.g.strong and stable). He/ his supporters state continuously exact figures or action points with links to the sources, and typically communication based on facts are the opposite to propaganda.

So, maybe you could explain how my arrogance is truly magnificient, as I don´t get it at all? And while you do it, maybe you could actually show (using facts) how Brexit is beneficial for Britain?


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2017)

cheekyscrip said:


> O, lordy!!! Kettle! Pot! ( cannot say anymore in fear of offending).
> Looks like we have this " Monday tomorrow" cloud descending...
> Big tinto de verano required.


 LOL


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

All of it is conjecture. We haven't left the Eu yet and Corbyn isn't PM. To believe the country will sink outside of the Eu, or that Corbyn will save us all, is just belief atm. I don't know what will happen. Brexit depends on the people in charge of it and with Corbyn it depends on whether he gets in and has his figures right.

As Brexit may change everything yet, he doesn't know and nor can his experts. So if Corbyn will make everything better, as some people believe he will, either Brexit won't fail, or it's failure won't be too bad. Corbyn has to be lying. He can't know if raising the tax of a few wealthy will cover it. He's not even promising to take things back to Tony Blair's day, so why people are so hysterical about him, I really don't know.

People may march against austerity and want nurses to have a pay rise, that doesn't automatically mean they also want a labour government with Corbyn as PM.

Given the current record of our government and how unhappy people are with it, the Polls should be predicting a landslide for Labour right now and they aren't. It's going to take even more disasters for the Tories, for people to put up with Jeremy I'm afraid.


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

MrsZee said:


> Maybe you missed MiffyMoo´s quote, as I merely repeated her message, because I agreed with her the essence of propaganda. MiffyMoo used that to define us, who support Corbyn and I to define those, who supported Brexit. I base my claim firstly on the the facts that the original campaigners (eg. Farage) have openly said their "slogans" for Brexit were not truthfull (=that is a lie to me) and the statements of EU have not been true either. Usually people change their opinions once they find out that they were lied to, but in this case that has not happened. That is what MiffyMoo's quote was so apposite to this situation. If it sounds harsh, well, I merely quoted it.
> 
> Secondly why I think the same quote cannot be used for Corbyn is that his campaigners are using concrete examples all the time, not mere slogans like May (e.g.strong and stable). *He/ his supporters state continuously exact figures or action points with links to the sources, and typically communication based on facts are the opposite to propaganda. *
> 
> So, maybe you could explain how my arrogance is truly magnificient, as I don´t get it at all? And while you do it, maybe you could actually show (using facts) how Brexit is beneficial for Britain?


Hmmm. Corbyn stated as fact that university applications from working class students were falling because of student fees. Proven to be untrue. I'm not sure whether he was lying, mis-spoke or just rabble rousing.


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2017)

samuelsmiles said:


> Hmmm. Corbyn stated as fact that university applications from working class students were falling because of student fees. Proven to be untrue. I'm not sure whether he was lying, mis-spoke or just rabble rousing.


At least we are speaking about real issues and not slogans like "strong and stable" or EU steals out money. So according to this, Corbyn was neither lying, misspeaking or rabbling. But a good example why some one using facts, cannot really lie, misspeak or rabble, as they will be found out. And naturally all politicians must be followed all the time, as temptation to do that is high. Power corrupts most people, unless people keep checking their deeds all the time.

These are the figures I have:
"Analysis of UCAS data reveals that the largest decreases are for older applicants from England and Wales, with the number of those over the age of 25 having decreased by almost a quarter (23 per cent)."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/e...cent-brexit-latest-news-figures-a7558131.html


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

cheekyscrip said:


> *O, lordy!!! Kettle! Pot!* ( cannot say anymore in fear of offending).


The kettle was calling, Scrippy, because it had selectively read.


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2017)

Elles said:


> All of it is conjecture. We haven't left the Eu yet and Corbyn isn't PM. To believe the country will sink outside of the Eu, or that Corbyn will save us all, is just belief atm. I don't know what will happen. Brexit depends on the people in charge of it and with Corbyn it depends on whether he gets in and has his figures right.
> 
> As Brexit may change everything yet, he doesn't know and nor can his experts. So if Corbyn will make everything better, as some people believe he will, either Brexit won't fail, or it's failure won't be too bad. Corbyn has to be lying. He can't know if raising the tax of a few wealthy will cover it. He's not even promising to take things back to Tony Blair's day, so why people are so hysterical about him, I really don't know.
> 
> ...


When you say "I don´t know what is going to happen", to me it means that when you voted to leave, you really didn´t have much real knowledge why. If you did, surely those reasons would have formed the Foundation of the negotiations. (By you I don´t refer to personally, but Brexit voters). Surely there would be a list of benefits you´ll have once out of EU.

No one knows everything, but to know nothing just is not good enough. Corbyn can´t make everything better for everyone, naturally, but if he makes something better for lots of people, it´s way much better than what May&co are doing. And sometimes hope and trust alone are enough to start reviving an economy.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

When my daughter went to university it was the first year that fees were introduced, bought in by a Labour government. We explained it all to her, that she would have to pay off the loan when she was working etc etc and she decided she would still go, after all that was years in advance and she was excited about going to Uni. Halfway through her course she told me she reckoned that the three years course could easily be condensed into two years if the tutorials were for a whole day and they didn't have such long holidays, it would have saved her a years tuition fees. We helped her as much as we could, but didn't have the spare cash to pay her fees. She has paid off her loan as quickly as she was able to.
I didn't go to Uni, got jobs instead, but my BIL did and we spent a lot of time with him and his mates as they messed about not going to lectures and enjoying spending their student grants on beer and parties, they didnt really care, after all someone else was paying for it all. BIL eventually did knuckle down after changing courses, and having his father have a go at him, and eventually got his doctorate in hydraulic engineering.
One of his mates hardly went to any lectures, barely scraped through his exams and ended up in a dead end job. I'm not sure I want to return to that kind of situation where tax payers money is wasted on beer and parties for a load of students.


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

MrsZee said:


> At least we are speaking about real issues and not slogans like "strong and stable" or EU steals out money. So according to this, Corbyn was neither lying, misspeaking or rabbling. But a good example why some one using facts, cannot really lie, misspeak or rabble, as they will be found out. And naturally all politicians must be followed all the time, as temptation to do that is high. Power corrupts most people, unless people keep checking their deeds all the time.
> 
> These are the figures I have:
> "Analysis of UCAS data reveals that the largest decreases are for older applicants from England and Wales, with the number of those over the age of 25 having decreased by almost a quarter (23 per cent)."
> ...


From Fullfact.

(Corbyn) "Labour politicians say that in particular, it is "disadvantaged" pupils, "state school" pupils, or children from "lower waged" families who are being put off."

We've asked Labour for the sources of these claims, and haven't been given an answer.

In actual fact, university applications from disadvantaged 18 year olds are at a record high.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Trouble is when we criticise Corbyn and the answer is to slate May and the Conservatives, usually it's either nothing we don't already know, or something that isn't factual. We're criticising Corbyn and his policies, not praising May and hers. When they say, oh but you never criticise May, that's because no one praises her, so we don't need to lol. Corbyn also used slogans. They all do. For the many not the few.

Discussing policy isn't personal. 

I agree with student loans rather than free places. Imo it's a fairer system and someone has to pay in the end. University students aren't 7 year olds. They either take a loan and pay for their own place when they can afford it and use their place wisely, or they end up paying for everyone's place when they leave. Whether they can afford it or not and whether the place is used wisely or not. 

More poor people have taken the loans, than would have taken the free places. The loan also gives the impression that it will be paid back, which gives the overall impression that going to university leads to good pay and prospects. So worth it for poor working class, rather than going straight into a dead end job that appears more lucrative to a 16 year old.

It would cost 11 billion a year for an unnecessary policy, which would be pure bribery for the young vote, nothing else.

Unfortunately May knows bribery works and it looks like she's going to try the tactic herself and disregard the actual evidence.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

MrsZee said:


> When you say "I don´t know what is going to happen", to me it means that when you voted to leave, you really didn´t have much real knowledge why. If you did, surely those reasons would have formed the Foundation of the negotiations. (By you I don´t refer to personally, but Brexit voters). Surely there would be a list of benefits you´ll have once out of EU.


At risk of being called 'vulgar and ignorant' again, this is, in part, why I suggested in another thread that some people voted Leave simply because they didn't like the EU telling us what to do - which, when you think of it, is the essence of 'taking back control'. There were no specific, calculable benefits, and no-one these days is claiming that the UK will be economically better off; most concede that we will be worse off. So what reason does it leave?

We've already got a Brexit thread though, so I'll leave it there!


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2017)

samuelsmiles said:


> From Fullfact.
> 
> (Corbyn) "Labour politicians say that in particular, it is "disadvantaged" pupils, "state school" pupils, or children from "lower waged" families who are being put off."
> 
> ...


That is good. Do you know how many actually get their degrees? I mean the system helps them financially, doesn´t it? I assume they don´t drop out after a year once they realize they can´t pay for it.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

MrsZee said:


> That is good. Do you know how many actually get their degrees? I mean the system helps them financially, doesn´t it? I assume they don´t drop out after a year once they realize they can´t pay for it.


I'm not sure what your getting at there. The loan is only paid back when they are earning over a certain amount per annum, so whether you can afford to pay the loan back or not is immaterial. If you don't earn or don't earn enough, you don't pay back the loan. My daughter didn't start to pay back her loan until several years afte leaving uni because she wasn't earning enough, she still managed to pay back her loan eventuallly as she gradually earned more either by being paid more, being promoted or changing jobs to one that paid more. She has spent most of her working life in central London, not exactly a cheap place to live, yet she's managed it, mainly by being thrifty and saving.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Siskin said:


> I'm not sure what your getting at there. The loan is only paid back when they are earning over a certain amount per annum, so whether you can afford to pay the loan back or not is immaterial. If you don't earn or don't earn enough, you don't pay back the loan. My daughter didn't start to pay back her loan until several years afte leaving uni because she wasn't earning enough, she still managed to pay back her loan eventuallly as she gradually earned more either by being paid more, being promoted or changing jobs to one that paid more. She has spent most of her working life in central London, not exactly a cheap place to live, yet she's managed it, mainly by being thrifty and saving.


Do you know if she's in a minority? I do wonder what proportion of these loans is ever paid back. They get written off after so long don't they? The costs being bandied about for abolishing tuition fees should take account of the outstanding loans which never get paid back but I bet they don't.

eta - just done a quick trawl on Google and according to various sources it's reckoned anywhere between 45% and 60% will never be paid back.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

havoc said:


> Do you know if she's in a minority? I do wonder what proportion of these loans is ever paid back. They get written off after so long don't they? The costs being bandied about for abolishing tuition fees should take account of the outstanding loans which never get paid back but I bet they don't.


I've no idea, I was just quoting her as a for instance. The people she knows who either went to uni with her or those she has met since have all either paid their loans or are paying them back, again only a small sample. It would be an interesting survey to see results for.
I think after 30 years the loan is written off, no idea if the affects credit scores or anything.

I cannot see how the country would afford to cover the cost of paying back all the loans and also to pay for students to go to uni. When I was a teenager only the clever few went to uni, mainly those going to grammar and technical schools were encouraged, I went to a secondary modern and you were not expected to go to uni. Don't feel particularly deprived or that I've missed out, I enjoyed what I did during my working life.

Nowadays most students are encouraged to consider going to uni and many do far more then back in the day. Taxing the rich to pay for all this will only last a short time, the rich will clear off and live in another country, leaving the middle classes and the poor to tax until they buzz off too or stop bothering to work


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I've found various articles and the figures for non payment, here from 2014
_Around 45% of university graduates will not earn enough to repay their student loans, the government now believes.
*If the figure reaches 48.6% experts calculate that the government will lose more money than it gained by increasing fees in England to £9,000 a year.* (my bold)
_
A headline from the FT in July 2016 suggests the figure is two thirds - I don't subscribe so can't link to the article.

And then there is this. As it's the Mail (even the Mail on Sunday) I didn't include it in the range I quoted.
_About 85 per cent of students in England will never repay their student loans, according to research conducted for The Mail on Sunday. It suggests that hundreds of thousands will be burdened with long-term debt, making it even harder for them to afford to buy a home.
_


Siskin said:


> no idea if the affects credit scores or anything.


Seems so. Whichever way round I look at it, it appears it's costing the taxpayer to burden a whole generation with a debt which will blight their lives.


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

havoc said:


> I've found various articles and the figures for non payment, here from 2014
> _Around 45% of university graduates will not earn enough to repay their student loans, the government now believes.
> *If the figure reaches 48.6% experts calculate that the government will lose more money than it gained by increasing fees in England to £9,000 a year.* (my bold)
> _
> ...


Not so in all cases.

*Student loans DO NOT go on credit files*
When you borrow from a bank for a credit card, loan or mortgage, to evaluate whether they'll make money from you lenders look at three pieces of information - your application form, any previous dealings they've had with you and crucially, the information on your credit reference files (full info: How Credit Ratings Work).

Most normal financial transactions and credit relationships you have are listed on these files - yet student loans are not included (with the exception of students who started university before 1998 under the original loans system and defaulted).

So the only way loan, credit card or mortgage providers know if you've got a student loan is if they choose to ask on application forms. They can do this and it happens, but in general it's only for bigger value transactions such as mortgages.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Whenl initially fees were about 3 k per year...so much more affordable and more realistic the pay off...Maybe state universities should have part pay courses? There should be certain amount of placements to be filled accordingly what is needed? probably then placements in David Bekham studies or etc. would be more limited?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

It's a difficult question for the older generation of taxpayers. I'm one of those who wasn't overly impressed with 'vocational' degrees or off the wall subjects but I have learned that as the world of work changes so do the degree courses. David Beckham studies I'll never understand but some others I do because once physical jobs have become more technical.



samuelsmiles said:


> So the only way loan, credit card or mortgage providers know if you've got a student loan is if they choose to ask on application forms. They can do this and it happens, but in general it's only for bigger value transactions such as mortgages.


A mortgage is the one thing that makes a HUGE difference. Affordability is now how it's decided and that student loan is stopping many being able to buy a house. I'd go along with the whole idea that I don't want to pay for students to lay about and waste their time but if it's costing me money to make them pay for it then it's ludicrous.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

If you're not earning enough to pay back a student loan, you're probably not earning enough to get a mortgage anyway. I don't actually mind if it costs a little more to give out loans towards it, rather than free places. I think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. My daughter wouldn't have got her degree if it was all free places. Getting the loan gave her more choice and an appreciation of that choice and I think she's doing better because of it. I'm not so against free places that I'd wave placards, but I'm not for them.

I don't know what's happening with Brexit, because the politicians cant agree. Hard Brexit, soft brexit, no brexit. I already said what I'd like to see happen now we've voted leave.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

My daughter has paid hers back. So there's another to add to our small sample.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Elles said:


> My daughter has paid hers back. So there's another to add to our small sample


I'm assuming your daughter was paying off the lower amount under the old system. If not then I congratulate her as she walked into a job on quite amazing pay to have paid off the higher tuition costs by now.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Elles said:


> If you're not earning enough to pay back a student loan, you're probably not earning enough to get a mortgage anyway


That's not really the point. We are saddling kids with over £40k worth of debt which is taken into consideration when they apply for a mortgage and it's costing us money to do so. Even if the increased fees are only cost neutral to the taxpayer why would we do that?


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

The government paid me to go to university.

I don't think either of us is very sure why!


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

havoc said:


> That's not really the point. We are saddling kids with over £40k worth of debt which is taken into consideration when they apply for a mortgage and it's costing us money to do so. Even if the increased fees are only cost neutral to the taxpayer why would we do that?


I think I said earlier on this thread, loans towards it, and on the other one I suggested a combination of grants and loans. Just not free. My daughter is 26. The first of my family to do a degree. She has her main job which involves commuting between Devon and London and a couple of self employed projects, so she works a lot of hours and quite hard. It's a vocation though, so half of it doesn't feel like work to her, which is nice.

According to figures it would cost 11 billion a year for everyone to have free places and it's not effective at providing places for the poor and underprivileged. I believe that should be taken into account, not just a simple free for all. If there are courses about David Beckham  then I agree, maybe a start would be looking at relevance and what we actually get for our money before we pay it.

An 18 year old isn't a child.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Elles said:


> According to figures it would cost 11 billion a year for everyone to have free places


That's a raw headline figure and we are paying it anyway in loans. If only 50% is paid back then the true cost of not charging at all isn't 11 billion - it's half that.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

havoc said:


> . If only 50% is paid back then the true cost of not charging at all isn't 11 billion - it's half that.


That'd be 5.5 billion. Happy to do the maths for you.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

havoc said:


> That's a raw headline figure and we are paying it anyway in loans. If only 50% is paid back then the true cost of not charging at all isn't 11 billion - it's half that.


Yes. The efficiency, relevance and suitability does need to be researched though. If free places are ineffective and don't help the very people they should, then offering it as a bribe to younger voters isn't as charitable as it looks. It's a bit like the £350 million a week to the NHS or whatever it was on the bus. The NHS could get £350million, it won't, but it sounds good. Free uni places could help the young and poor, it won't, but it could. So the wealthy can vote labour for their free places studying David Beckham and not get called greedy, because it helps the poor too. Does it though? So far the answer appears to be no.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Elles said:


> Free uni places could help the young and poor, it won't, but it could


My generation saw a real surge of first in the family doing a degree - it was free then but only available to the academically able. Why wouldn't it work now? Have expectations gone backwards? Maybe it's that the qualification has become so devalued that more and more at every social level are questioning whether it's worth the bother. Many (maybe most) degrees now are not worth the debt.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

havoc said:


> My generation saw a real surge of first in the family doing a degree - it was free then but only available to the academically able. Why wouldn't it work now? Have expectations gone backwards? Maybe it's that the qualification has become so devalued that more and more at every social level are questioning whether it's worth the bother. Many (maybe most) degrees now are not worth the debt.


Come the day everyone goes to uni who will empty bins or dig ditches?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

It probably is all about perception and expectation. To be a proper success these days you have to be the thick one in a reality tv series.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

havoc said:


> It probably is all about perception and expectation. To be a proper success these days you have to be the thick one in a reality tv series.


When I started in the civil service at the lowest of the low clerical assistance, all you needed was five o levels or cse equivalents. Now you need a degree.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Siskin said:


> When I started in the civil service at the lowest of the low clerical assistance, all you needed was five o levels or cse equivalents. Now you need a degree


Having A levels put you in as an EO didn't it? Had a friend who dropped out of university back in those days and she went straight into the civil service at A level grade.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

havoc said:


> Having A levels put you in as an EO didn't it? Had a friend who dropped out of university back in those days and she went straight into the civil service at A level grade.


That's right. My husband started as a CO and went to night classes for a year and got his two A levels and was able to move up to EO. I eventually got there after taking the civil service exam to CO then some years later my boss gave me a series of good reports and recommended me for promotion. Took the EO board and passed, felt really proud.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I dont know whether this photo has been doctored but is this really acceptable ? perhaps its a sign of the times . 

Sorry about the size of the photo.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Siskin said:


> When I started in the civil service at the lowest of the low clerical assistance, all you needed was five o levels or cse equivalents. Now you need a degree.


in the 70s the lowest was a clerical assistant . I had 5 o levels so went in as a Clerical officer . if you has A levels you could be an EO.
i dont know what it is now .


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

kimthecat said:


> I dont know whether this photo has been doctored but is this really acceptable ? perhaps its a sign of the times .
> 
> Sorry about the size of the photo.


I don't think it's been photoshopped. I'm sure he'll be on the internet complaining about the Nazi government, lack of democracy, neoliberalism, and freedom of speech.

By the way, that sure looks like a Leica camera hanging around his neck? Austerity has hit him hard. Oh, the irony. :Hilarious


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

samuelsmiles said:


> By the way, that sure looks like a Leica camera hanging around his neck? Austerity has hit him hard. Oh, the irony.


It hasn't bothered me much either but I still care about other people. Play the ball, not the man.


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

havoc said:


> It hasn't bothered me much either but I still care about other people. Play the ball, not the man.


Mmmm. With language like that on his board, I'm inclined not to.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

It does shock me , that photo . It shocks me that someone who looks a decent young man feels its acceptable hold up a poster like that in a public place. I know that youngsters have a different sense of humour from older people and that strong swear words are used on the telly in programmes , but it's the sheer nastiness of it . 
I don't think this attitude is a one off either , not just one young man but how many others. 

Corbyn , he appeals to the young , he comes over as a benevolent Father Christmas, do these some of young people understand what Marxism and Communism is ? they often refer to history but do they know realise history starts way before they were born ?

The way he's referred to as a strongly principled man , as I said before you can't be (or stay) principled and be an MP 
He's an MP first and foremost , he went against his principles regarding Brexit , he weakly campaigned against it and many people, including Andrew Marr said it wasn't clear in his manifesto about a single market and some people felt mislead ,then he's sacked MPs who wanted to stay in a single market . 
Maybe I'm wrong , perhaps he does have the makings of a PM . 

He's fought off revolt from many of his MPs , he's certainly wanted to hang on to his position and wouldn't let go , didnt care that he could have caused the end of the labour party , he changed his mind to suit his purpose about Brexit , is ruthless enough to sack MPs , he's enjoying the adultation speaking at rallies etc , who does that sound like? Perhaps Socialism today is the New Fascism .


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> I dont know whether this photo has been doctored but is this really acceptable ? perhaps its a sign of the times .
> 
> Sorry about the size of the photo.


It's unacceptable. They should at least be able to spell 'Theresa'.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> He's fought off revolt from many of his MPs , he's certainly wanted to hang on to his position and wouldn't let go , didnt care that he could have caused the end of the labour party , he changed his mind to suit his purpose about Brexit , is ruthless enough to sack MPs , he's enjoying the adultation speaking at rallies etc , *who does that sound like*? Perhaps Socialism today is the New Fascism .


Trump?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

From Twitter =
[email protected] 
"I have a real issue with someone brought up in wealth telling me who was brought up in poverty what to be angry about."

I feel this too , I find that sort of attitude patronising as if poor people are too stupid to know what's best for them .


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Arnie83 said:


> Trump?


I was thinking Hitler myself but Trump will do ! :Hilarious


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## Guest (Jul 4, 2017)

Siskin said:


> I'm not sure what your getting at there. The loan is only paid back when they are earning over a certain amount per annum, so whether you can afford to pay the loan back or not is immaterial. If you don't earn or don't earn enough, you don't pay back the loan. My daughter didn't start to pay back her loan until several years afte leaving uni because she wasn't earning enough, she still managed to pay back her loan eventuallly as she gradually earned more either by being paid more, being promoted or changing jobs to one that paid more. She has spent most of her working life in central London, not exactly a cheap place to live, yet she's managed it, mainly by being thrifty and saving.


I was wondering if they can afford to study or do they need to stop studying to earn money? (considering both living costs, while studying and possible tuition fees). I too paid my studying with a loan + study support but I know nowadays Finnish students are not so happy getting a loan to cover the living costs, and they want to get their studies financed solely by subsidies. Hence many work part time or during summer breaks at the same time.

But you explained that in UK all get enough loan to cover to studying costs, so money will not be a problem.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

We contributed towards her living costs and she also worked during the weekends and holidays. It was hard going for all of us and we had very little in the way of savings although had put some aside when the children were small in case they did decide to go into further education. As it happened only one did, the other left school and went off to work. 
Having come from an era where university was free, apart from living costs, to have to pay for it all quite suddenly took a bit of getting used to. I would like to think that some parents and grandparents are putting a bit of money aside to help their children out with living costs if they decide to go to uni.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I think I'd help out more if my children were going to university now and having to go so deeply into debt. All of mine went under the old system when they only had to pay around a third of today's tuition costs. Mine all worked in the holidays and I'd have been pretty annoyed if they hadn't.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> I dont know whether this photo has been doctored but is this really acceptable ? perhaps its a sign of the times .
> 
> Sorry about the size of the photo.


I hope they got arrested (but its not real) for using langauge liable to offend


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

I didnt go to uni, i failed my 11 plus by a small % so didnt even make it to grammar school, i went on a craft apprenticeship for 4 years, electrical and mechanical engineering, technical drawing, electrical technology.

Uni isnt the be all and end all

A few years ago i was "under" 2 uni-boys at a distribution centre, me a humble truck driver, they had a delivery note.... neither of them knew the A5 was the watling street.........


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

kimthecat said:


> I dont know whether this photo has been doctored but *is this really acceptable ?* perhaps its a sign of the times .


Why not?

All's fair in love and war, and the tories have treated many people like pieces of sh1t.

You reap just what you sow.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Zaros said:


> Why not?
> 
> All's fair in love and war, and the tories have treated many people like pieces of sh1t.
> 
> You reap just what you sow.


Common decency is why not.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

When I was working in the civil service, them with degrees were a bit of a rarity. Then the powers that be decided to fast track degree students through to higher posts as apparently the rest of us who had been slogging away for years weren't good enough. Cue fresh from Uni newbies spending six months in various departments for the next two years before emerging as section or department heads. I often spent time with the ones that come through my office to teach them a certain aspect of my job and what it meant in the greater scheme of things. There was only one that I rated and he eventually became the director of gchq many years later. Mostly they appeared to lack common sense and were not good at being in charge of offices or sections when they had done their two years.
I'm not saying all university grads are like this, but the drive to get virtually everyone into a university as happened with Tony Blairs government has not done a lot of youngsters many favours. I highly support apprenticeship schemes as not everyone is a scholar and many do better in more practical work.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Dr Pepper said:


> Common decency.


That's a little something the Tories appear to be in desperate need of.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Siskin said:


> the drive to get virtually everyone into a university as happened with Tony Blairs government has not done a lot of youngsters many favours.


Couldn't agree more. We've now ended up with a society which doesn't value academic excellence because we pretend all achieve it.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

samuelsmiles said:


> I don't think it's been photoshopped. I'm sure he'll be on the internet complaining about the Nazi government, lack of democracy, neoliberalism, and freedom of speech.
> 
> By the way, that sure looks like a Leica camera hanging around his neck? Austerity has hit him hard. Oh, the irony. :Hilarious


It is. Costs just shy of £6k


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Arnie83 said:


> It's unacceptable. They should at least be able to spell 'Theresa'.


:Hilarious I expect his sign is 'shopped. It's not very specific is it? He could end up stood next to someone with a placard that says 'I love Corbyn' on it and start a riot.


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

Elles said:


> :Hilarious I expect his sign is 'shopped. It's not very specific is it? He could end up stood next to someone with a placard that says 'I love Corbyn' on it and start a riot.


Still though, the photoshopper should know how to spell "Theresa". I reckon the photoshopper is also one of those people who writes "should of" instead of "should have"...
"Thersa" isn't the worst spelling error I've seen-I think "Jermery Corbiyn" is far worse.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

FeelTheBern said:


> Still though, the photoshopper should know how to spell "Theresa". I reckon the photoshopper is also one of those people who writes "should of" instead of "should have"...
> "Thersa" isn't the worst spelling error I've seen-I think "Jermery Corbiyn" is far worse.


His sign. Hers is probably real.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

His sign is definitely photoshopped. The perspective is all wrong.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Dr Pepper said:


> Common decency is why not.


Agree with you . Its seems the opinion here is its photoshopped . I hope so .

Sorry , Dr pepper , Ive just changed what I wrote ! You can unlike this if you want to.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Mirandashell said:


> His sign is definitely photoshopped. The perspective is all wrong.


It looks to neat and tidy compared to the girls one.


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

At least it doesn't say "Jermery Corbiyn".


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

kimthecat said:


> Agree with you . Its seems the opinion here is its photoshopped . I hope so .
> 
> Sorry , Dr pepper , Ive just changed what I wrote ! You can unlike this if you want to.


That's ok. Common decency still applies if it's real or not as to "why wouldn't you".


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

(Just trying to catch up but firstly thank you @havoc , @MrsZee - & @Goblin x )



Zaros said:


> He was born Robert Allen Zimmerman and became a very influencial song writer whose timeless work has spanned almost 60 years
> 
> He is so influential the late music chameleon, Mr David Bowie, wrote a song about him.
> 
> ...


Now Bowie music was a big part of my youth - so why had I never heard of this song before? It is brilliant- I'm playing it now, it may be an old song but its a new song to me. Cheers Zaros.

Doesn't matter how principled, people with social values will always derided & smeared by a certain set.



Satori said:


> Then it is possible that you are not familiar with his other works from that period. That would surprise me because it was the peak of his lyrical brilliance. If you haven't heard them then try 'With God on our side', 'The lonesome battle of Hattie Carol', 'Who killed Davey Moore', 'It's alright Ma (I'm only bleeding)' and 'Gates of Eden'. I am sure you would be bowled over.


I knew he was very political - I know some of his most famous songs but he was a bit before my time really!  I've never taken that much notice of the lyrics of his songs I do know, that's probably because I only became this politicised relatively recently by the badger cull. I'll definitely check these songs out now though, thank you.



MiffyMoo said:


> From what I see, the majority have spoken out about their disillusionment with policies and actions that they disagree with


And from what I've seen there are a few individuals who don't seem to like this government held to account. They use the usual deflection tactics to gloss over how bad this government & its dreadful policies are. It shocks me when people will play down the suffering & destruction austerity has caused & play down the bribing of the DUP. They wont even look at objectively.



emmaviolet said:


> I'm going next week and if there's a chant, I will join in.


Good work! lol Hope you have a lovely day & the weather keeps nice for you.



Elles said:


> I don't think 'people' got fed up with it. They didn't like the Iraq war and Cameron resigned. Brexit doesn't mean people wanted extreme domestic policies, they wanted rid of what they thought of as extreme Eu policies and control.





Elles said:


> Projections aren't facts and even the biggest Tory fan hasn't been close to the Corbyn hero worship.
> 
> We haven't left the Eu yet. When we do, I hope we can arrange our own trade deals instead of relying on Europe, although trade deals aren't the be all and end all. I hope we can be stronger on climate and environmental issues. That we can be even more proactive on pay and equality. That we can give our fisheries quotas in our own waters. That our farmers can receive fair prices instead of subsidies. That we can move towards more world friendly farming practices. That we can ban chemicals without asking the Eu. That we can protect people of all nationalities.
> 
> ...


Well I know many traditional labour supporters did get fed up Elles. They were fed up that labour had lurched to the right, fed up it embraced Thatcherism. So many people were fed up of a tory lite labour party - they were desperate for a clear alternative to neoliberalism. People want a genuinely democratic socialist party. The reason Miliband did so abysmally in the 2015 GE is he didn't have anything different to offer, there was nothing to inspire in the manifesto. Labour under Corbyn did exceptionally well in the face of a most dreadful smear campaign against him and in spite of the right wing of the PLP undermining him at every given opportunity because the manifesto is so progressive.

Of course we wont be stronger on climate & environmental issues outside the EU. Surely you know the ideology of the tory party? You must have heard how they intend to rip up red tape once we're out of the EU?. Many key tories don't even believe in climate change - those that do don't give a damn. The DUP are climate change deniers. Check out the voting histories of the tory cabinet Elles. Look at the dire record of this government on the environment. We will never get rid of fracking under a tory government. Even New labour supported fracking, although they did call for a moratorium  .

Why do you think so many environmentalists backed 'Corbyns leftie loons'?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

samuelsmiles said:


> From Fullfact.
> 
> (Corbyn) "Labour politicians say that in particular, it is "disadvantaged" pupils, "state school" pupils, or children from "lower waged" families who are being put off."
> 
> ...


That is only half the story. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-40429263

And the latest from the IFS: Poorest students will leave uni with the highest debt thanks to the tories scrapping the student grant - https://www.theguardian.com/educati...th-57000-debt-says-ifs?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

kimthecat said:


> It does shock me , that photo . It shocks me that someone who looks a decent young man feels its acceptable hold up a poster like that in a public place. I know that youngsters have a different sense of humour from older people and that strong swear words are used on the telly in programmes , but it's the sheer nastiness of it .
> I don't think this attitude is a one off either , not just one young man but how many others.
> 
> Corbyn , he appeals to the young , he comes over as a benevolent Father Christmas, do these some of young people understand what Marxism and Communism is ? they often refer to history but do they know realise history starts way before they were born ?
> ...


n
I think its important everyone does research Marxism  With so much misinformation & scaremongering, I'm just glad my kids have their heads screwed on.

Corbyn stayed because the people wanted him to - he got the biggest mandate from grass root support - twice. The reason he got the overwhelming support is because he stood against the Blairites who many traditional labour supporters feel had hijacked the party.

Communism or Fascism are most certainly not democratic socialism. Corbyn isn't an authoritarian like May, he wants ordinary people to have _more_ say not less. If you're concerned about democracy you need to look in the direction of the tory party. Their 'repeal bill' will give them sweeping powers to bypass Parliament.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Dr Pepper said:


> That's ok. Common decency still applies if it's real or not as to "why wouldn't you".


Absolutely . 

E TA Anyone singing Corbyn songs at Wimbledon, then .


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> Corbyn isn't an authoritarian like May.


And just to prove May is an authoritarian..

Last week she walked into a bar and ordered everyone around.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Zaros said:


> And just to prove May is an authoritarian..
> 
> Last week she walked into a bar and ordered everyone around.


:Hilarious

It took a few seconds for the penny to drop though!


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2017)

havoc said:


> That's not really the point. We are saddling kids with over £40k worth of debt which is taken into consideration when they apply for a mortgage and it's costing us money to do so. Even if the increased fees are only cost neutral to the taxpayer why would we do that?





havoc said:


> My generation saw a real surge of first in the family doing a degree - it was free then but only available to the academically able. Why wouldn't it work now? Have expectations gone backwards? Maybe it's that the qualification has become so devalued that more and more at every social level are questioning whether it's worth the bother. Many (maybe most) degrees now are not worth the debt.


My first question is: how much confidence does it take to know you make £40k debt after you get a degree, which will not guarantee you a well paid job? And how condident are those, who don´t have a good connection or even examples in their family showing that ít is worth studying and getting a degree?

My second question: How can a nation afford this waste of talent? The discussion revolved now only around fees and the debts students get into nowadays, when IMO it should have focused on the fact that if one´s wealth starts playing any role in what the most talented will study and become in their lives, the nation loses a lot. If you could buy yourself a degree, it will become wortless eventually in global scale.

So why is the government making it harder to study for poor children? Why you have to pay fees in the first place? Surely Britain was poorer before and still could afford to provide free education? I`m sure the goverment then thought that it is really for the nations´s best interest to get the most talented to get their degrees so that their could benefit the society. What has changed? Naturally there are people, who can create great things without any degrees, you don´t need to study in the uni for that at all, but those people are like the exception to the rule..



Siskin said:


> When I started in the civil service at the lowest of the low clerical assistance, all you needed was five o levels or cse equivalents. Now you need a degree.





kimthecat said:


> From Twitter = [email protected]
> "I have a real issue with someone brought up in wealth telling me who was brought up in poverty what to be angry about." I feel this too , I find that sort of attitude patronising as if poor people are too stupid to know what's best for them .


I agree. The amount of money you have does not reflect at all the way your brains or heart works. This is also so typical the way "western" people deal with any developing nation.



Siskin said:


> We contributed towards her living costs and she also worked during the weekends and holidays. It was hard going for all of us and we had very little in the way of savings although had put some aside when the children were small in case they did decide to go into further education. As it happened only one did, the other left school and went off to work. Having come from an era where university was free, apart from living costs, to have to pay for it all quite suddenly took a bit of getting used to. I would like to think that some parents and grandparents are putting a bit of money aside to help their children out with living costs if they decide to go to uni.


University is still free (and I think it should always be free), but just to pay for the food and living was a lot and I needed a loan for that. Still, it made a huge difference to know you needed to pay only about £10k back instead of £40k. Comon Britain, you are a rich country, you can do better. You used to do better too. I can´t understand how come you seemed to have lost everything that was genuiely great about Great Britain and are becoming an isolated little island.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MrsZee said:


> My first question is: how much confidence does it take to know you make £40k debt after you get a degree, which will not guarantee you a well paid job? And how condident are those, who don´t have a good connection or even examples in their family showing that ít is worth studying and getting a degree?
> 
> My second question: How can a nation afford this waste of talent? The discussion revolved now only around fees and the debts students get into nowadays, when IMO it should have focused on the fact that if one´s wealth starts playing any role in what the most talented will study and become in their lives, the nation loses a lot. If you could buy yourself a degree, it will become wortless eventually in global scale.
> 
> ...


We certainly can do better. Watch Caroline Lucas on Thursdays Question Time, Mrs Zee. She was brilliant, as always.

*Caroline Lucas just expertly exposed Jacob Rees-Mogg's shameful hypocrisy over tuition fee debt *http://evolvepolitics.com/caroline-...gs-shameful-hypocrisy-tuition-fee-debt-video/


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> We certainly can do better. Watch Caroline Lucas on Thursdays Question Time, Mrs Zee. She was brilliant, as always.
> 
> *Caroline Lucas just expertly exposed Jacob Rees-Mogg's shameful hypocrisy over tuition fee debt *http://evolvepolitics.com/caroline-...gs-shameful-hypocrisy-tuition-fee-debt-video/


Haha, I think you're in the minority, general consensus was that she was utterly appalling


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MiffyMoo said:


> Haha, I think you're in the minority, general consensus was that she was utterly appalling


Not the reaction I saw on twitter 

The rabid right don't like her full stop, because she is SO good at holding the tories to account:Smuggrin

Anyway pf members can judge for themselves


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Not the reaction I saw on twitter
> 
> The rabid right don't like her full stop, because she is SO good at holding the tories to account:Smuggrin
> 
> Anyway pf members can judge for themselves


Best to post the whole 1 hour then, not just chosen clips


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MiffyMoo said:


> Best to post the whole 1 hour then, not just chosen clips


The clip I posted was relevant to the conversation - nothing stopping you posting the whole program though


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Massive turnout for Corbyn at todays Durham Miners Gala.










Just part of the crowd waiting to hear Corbyn speak.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

noushka05 said:


> Massive turnout for Corbyn at todays Durham Miners Gala.
> 
> View attachment 317083
> 
> ...


Pha, that's nothing compared to Mrs May's crowd.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> Pha, that's nothing compared to Mrs May's crowd.
> 
> View attachment 317088


LOL

while Jeremy's appeal continues to spread.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Standing ovation for Matt Wrack of the FBU speaking about Grenfell. Apparently it was a very powerful & moving speech.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Dr Pepper said:


> Pha, that's nothing compared to Mrs May's crowd.
> 
> View attachment 317088


:Smuggrin That must be her hubby !


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

kimthecat said:


> :Smuggrin That must be her hubby !


I know, good of him to turn up I thought.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

WASPI women fighting for their pension at Durham miners gala yesterday. Look @DT  xx


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> WASPI women fighting for their pension at Durham miners gala yesterday. Look @DT  xx


They been fighting ages noush, I joined the group but the best that we can hope for in that those facing hardship and povety get help. But wont hold my breathe, and yes, that was another of the tories bright ideas.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Jeremy Corbyn just set a new record for the Labour Party. And Theresa May will be absolutely furious.

https://www.thecanary.co/2017/07/07...ur-party-theresa-may-will-absolutely-furious/

.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

What's that about the Durham Miners' Pensions?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Mirandashell said:


> What's that about the Durham Miners' Pensions?


WASPI stands for Women Against State Pension Inequality  The tories have robbed women born in the 50s.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Thanks, Noush


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Chuka Umunna was on ITV this morning with IDS and piers Morgan. I think he should be PM because he is the most attractive one.
 

ETA he was the Politics show too. he must be doing the rounds. I just caught the end of it . i believe they had been talking about deselection in the Labour party .


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

This has just tickled me to death:Hilarious

*HaveIGotNewsForYou*‏Verified [email protected] 5h5 hours ago
Labour denies that Jeremy Corbyn reshuffles his cabinet too often, in statement 
from shadow business secretary Keith Chegwin

.


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## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

It's not a pack of cards. I don't know why people keep talking about shuffling and reshuffling.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

KatieandOliver said:


> It's not a pack of cards. I don't know why people keep talking about shuffling and reshuffling.


I dunno. There _are_ lots of jokers.


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## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

Satori said:


> I dunno. There _are_ lots of jokers.


That is true.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

John Mcdonald on the Andrew Marr show today ,

*John McDonnell* downgrades Jeremy Corbyn's £100bn election offer to write off student debt to just an ambition. "It's very difficult" #*Marr*

Broken promises already , how long ago was the Election again?

More here

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...k-backtrack-pay-off-andrew-marr-a7843446.html


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

kimthecat said:


> John Mcdonald on the Andrew Marr show today ,
> 
> *John McDonnell* downgrades Jeremy Corbyn's £100bn election offer to write off student debt to just an ambition. "It's very difficult" #*Marr*
> 
> ...


As has been pointed out on Twitter, it was never in the manifesto, but when the leader of the party says "I will deal with it", it's fair enough for voters to believe it is a pledge

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...n/news/86362/jeremy-corbyn-labour-could-write


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@MiffyMoo Yes , that's true it wasn't in the manifesto , it sounded like a promise rather than a pledge , enough to make ex students hope that he would do it and vote for him . 
It smacks of desperation in the run up to the election !


----------

