# Dog attacks: What does the law allow us to do?



## Adam888 (Apr 24, 2012)

After a friend's dog was recently attacked by another dog it got me thinking about my own. My dog is very small and could no doubt be picked up and shook or simply bitten to death very quickly.

I know the best method of defense is avoidance in the first place, but if all else fails and another dog attacks your dog, what can we legally do about it?

If you ended up hurting/killing the aggressive dog could you end up in trouble with the law? I've seen a few dog walkers who carry legal limit (under 3inch) keyring knives. That seems extreme, but then if you were in the situation of seeing your dog being attacked you would want to do anything to save it.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2017)

I’m sorry, this isn’t going to give you any peace of mind, but if a dog is intent on killing something, it will likely be all over before you even have a chance to do anything. 

If there is a full-on dog fight, there are various effective ways of intervening depending on the situation. None involve knives or weapons of any sort.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2017)

Why would any dog owner want to kill another persons dog? I wouldn't and my boy was attacked when he was 1 that was the first time. Yes it's our job to protect our pets but it isn't our job to kill other people's dogs or any pet for that matter. It's up to other owners to keep their dogs under control.


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## Adam888 (Apr 24, 2012)

danielled said:


> Why would any dog owner want to kill another persons dog? I wouldn't and my boy was attacked when he was 1 that was the first time. Yes it's our job to protect our pets but it isn't our job to kill other people's dogs or any pet for that matter. It's up to other owners to keep their dogs under control.


They wouldn't want to. But may feel they have to. This is a last resort situation. Some dog's are vicious and out of control due to poor ownership. If said dog is attacking your dog (is most likely going to kill it if you don't intervene) what do you do? Intervention could also cause the dog to attack you.

If I am in that situation I would use any force available to stop the dog before it potentially even kills me. So, within UK law, if you killed an attacking dog, could you get in trouble?


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2017)

Adam888 said:


> They wouldn't want to. But may feel they have to. This is a last resort situation. Some dog's are vicious and out of control due to poor ownership. If said dog is attacking your dog (is most likely going to kill it if you don't intervene) what do you do? Intervention could also cause the dog to attack you.
> 
> If I am in that situation I would use any force available to stop the dog before it potentially even kills me. So, within UK law, if you killed an attacking dog, could you get in trouble?


I'd imagine if you deliberately killed a dog that was attacking yours you might well end up in more than a bit of trouble.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Adam888 said:


> They wouldn't want to. But may feel they have to. This is a last resort situation. Some dog's are vicious and out of control due to poor ownership. If said dog is attacking your dog (is most likely going to kill it if you don't intervene) what do you do? Intervention could also cause the dog to attack you.
> 
> If I am in that situation I would use any force available to stop the dog before it potentially even kills me. So, within UK law, if you killed an attacking dog, could you get in trouble?


I don't know where you live but in 30 years plus of dog ownership in both London and the south west I have only had one dog (a JRT) attack one of my dogs (a rottie). Of course you do all you can to break it up but there seriously are not loads of savage/vicious dogs marauding around waiting to attack your dog and/or kill you. If you are aware of any such dog I suggest you report it to the dog warden and the police immediately and avoid walking in areas where you might encounter them.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Adam888 said:


> After a friend's dog was recently attacked by another dog it got me thinking about my own. My dog is very small and could no doubt be picked up and shook or simply bitten to death very quickly.
> 
> I know the best method of defense is avoidance in the first place, but if all else fails and another dog attacks your dog, what can we legally do about it?
> 
> If you ended up hurting/killing the aggressive dog could you end up in trouble with the law? I've seen a few dog walkers who carry legal limit (under 3inch) keyring knives. That seems extreme, but then if you were in the situation of seeing your dog being attacked you would want to do anything to save it.


I have owned and been walking dogs for forty odd years and I have never had one of mine attacked.

Full on attacks where dogs are injured or killed or are very rare.

Don't allow your dog to approach another. Try to train him to be focused on you and avoid situations which worry you.

If your dog is small, you always have the option to pick him up if you really feel he is in danger.


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## Adam888 (Apr 24, 2012)

I agree with tou guys the likelihood is most people will never experience such a situation. However between March 2014 and Feb 2015 over 7000 people were admitted to hospital with dog related injuries.

I really only want to know just in case that one in a million happens. I'm walking my dog and a big, aggressive dog attacks my dog and myself.

The normal acceptable methods according to you guys would not work on a 60kg dog hell bent on attacking. Or a dog who has locked its jaw on your arm, causing potentially life threatening injury.

Within the law, what can I do? If I did carry a legal limit knife, and used it on the dog to defend myself. Would that be legal?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

My dog was attacked and bitten by another dog.

Fortunately, I managed to get the dog off but, although scary at the time, I don't think the dog was intent on killing my dog.

Since then, I do carry either a hiking cane or a stick picked up on a walk as a defence, which I would use or kick an attacking dog if necessary. 

If I really felt it was going to kill my dog and there was something on the ground, I guess it could be deemed reasonable to use that.

However, carrying a knife (however "legal") - no, I never would.

If you really need to know where you stand legally, a pet forum probably isn't the place. Maybe try a legal or Government website?


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Adam888 said:


> Within the law, what can I do? If I did carry a legal limit knife, and used it on the dog to defend myself. Would that be legal?


I think if you are asking for the legal position then you are best directing that question to a Lawyer/Solicitor not members of a forum. Professionals are in a far better position to answer your questions in regard to defending yourself including the legality of carrying and using a weapon.

J


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

The theme of this has changed from the OP defending his dog, to defending himself.

OP - we aren't in a position to give you permission to carry a knife, or condone you using it. As others have said you are asking the wrong question of the wrong people.

Cross posted with @Jamesgoeswalkies


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Adam888 said:


> I agree with tou guys the likelihood is most people will never experience such a situation. However between March 2014 and Feb 2015 over 7000 people were admitted to hospital with dog related injuries.
> 
> I really only want to know just in case that one in a million happens. I'm walking my dog and a big, aggressive dog attacks my dog and myself.
> 
> ...


A dog related injury can be a

slip, trip or fall over a dog
a fall caused by a dog crashing into a person
a scratch by a dog playing

etc etc etc

Many of the above are totally unrelated to biting, still fewer from dogs which are not those belonging to the injured person/family, and even fewer which require major treatment.

So, as others have said, please put this ito perspective.

Statistically you are far more likely to be in a vehicle related incident than a dog one. 

The only lockjaw you need worry about is the one you can contract from other sources, ie tetanus.

Believe me when I say that it is highly unlikely that a dog which weight 25kg plus and is so out of control that it is seriously savaging you or your dog is going to be responsive to anything you may have about your person other than a gun.

And as for using a knife on one good luck with explaining why it should be deemed legal you carry one whilst out dog walking


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> A dog related injury can be a
> 
> slip, trip or fall over a dog
> a fall caused by a dog crashing into a person
> ...


Surely a hospital is not going to classify falling over your own dog as a dog related injury. I was out of action for quite a while after one of my dogs crashed into me and injured my back. That was not classified as a dog related injury - why would it be. My chiropractor sees loads of injuries from pulling dogs etc, they are not reported and become statistics.

As for the knife - the OP did say a LEGAL knife. I certainly have one in my pocket all the time as does every other farmer and most horse owners that I know.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Blitz said:


> Surely a hospital is not going to classify falling over your own dog as a dog related injury. I was out of action for quite a while after one of my dogs crashed into me and injured my back. That was not classified as a dog related injury - why would it be. My chiropractor sees loads of injuries from pulling dogs etc, they are not reported and become statistics.
> 
> As for the knife - the OP did say a LEGAL knife. I certainly have one in my pocket all the time as does every other farmer and most horse owners that I know.


Yes they do.

Also ALL bites are classified under dog bites whether you were bitten by a dog, cat, horse, etc.

Unless you see the list you have no idea if the injury was classified as dog related or not.

Penknives need to be unfolded before use, so good luck with that when your arm is being savaged by this crazed canine monster as it is illegal to carry a knife in public without good reason - unless it's a knife with a folding blade 3 inches long (7.62cm) or less


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Blitz said:


> As for the knife - the OP did say a LEGAL knife. I certainly have one in my pocket all the time as does every other farmer and most horse owners that I know.


So not an average joe walking his dog in a park then?... frankly, the idea of coming back home tonight to walk the dog and entering the park with a dosen of strangers with "legal" knives in their pockets is really unsettling for me... 
My dog has been attacked before. No serious injury but it looked bad when watching from the side as the dogs were going for each other's necks... hand on heart - at no point did I wish I had a pocket knife on me so I could protect my dog by stabbing the massive mastiff type male. Where do you draw the line of when it's "ok" to cause serious physical damage to the other dog? Is it only ok for the small dog owners? Or is it ok in a more "fair" fight of big dogs? Does the other dog must draw blood before you stab him? Or does it only need to show some sort of intent to snap your dog's neck? 
If I was in a situation like that, I'd be probably using anything I can find around me, but I cannot see myself ever even considering carying a knife in case I need to stab someone's dog...


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2017)

Adam888 said:


> I agree with tou guys the likelihood is most people will never experience such a situation. However between March 2014 and Feb 2015 over 7000 people were admitted to hospital with dog related injuries.
> 
> I really only want to know just in case that one in a million happens. I'm walking my dog and a big, aggressive dog attacks my dog and myself.
> 
> ...


You can ask the correct people, that is a good place to start. If you ever stabbed a dog to death because it was attacking yours then you might be considered a sicko on here. I'd think you'd be questioned for carrying a knife if not be in big trouble.


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## steveshanks (Feb 19, 2015)

Forget the knife, its just not a place you want to go, anyway I would imagine by the time you get the knife out and open it it'd be all over, plus stabbing with a knife is not an instant thing like in the movies. The only experience I have of a dog getting killed was a Chi was attacked by a running Greyhound and it was all over in 2 seconds. The best way of protecting your dog is to be aware of your surroundings.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2017)

steveshanks said:


> Forget the knife, its just not a place you want to go, anyway I would imagine by the time you get the knife out and open it it'd be all over, plus stabbing with a knife is not an instant thing like in the movies. The only experience I have of a dog getting killed was a Chi was attacked by a running Greyhound and it was all over in 2 seconds. The best way of protecting your dog is to be aware of your surroundings.


Well said.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

OP, any dog of any size could attack you or your dog, and dog/dog & dog/human aggression are not interchangeable. If a dog attacks your dog, it doesn't, for example, mean it's going to turn on you.

Frankly, if I saw you walking around, carrying a knife - even a pocket knife - I'd be more likely to view _you_ with suspicion, not the dog.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Adam888 said:


> I agree with tou guys the likelihood is most people will never experience such a situation. However between March 2014 and Feb 2015 over 7000 people were admitted to hospital with dog related injuries.
> 
> I really only want to know just in case that one in a million happens. I'm walking my dog and a big, aggressive dog attacks my dog and myself.
> 
> ...


Yes and most of those will have been caused by their own dogs. For instance years ago my Old English Sheepdog was racing about on the grass and ran straight in to my MIL taking her legs clean out from under her, she hit her head on landing and was unconscious for a short time - the doctor recorded that as a dog related injury which of course it was but not a bite by a savage dog just a doofus OED not looking where he was going.


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

What a weird thread.... scary!


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## steveshanks (Feb 19, 2015)

I should add.....The greyhound was fresh from racing rescue and on a 3 month not off lead contract, he somehow (can't recall) got free and ran to the Chi, the Chi owner was unaware of the problems with ex racing dogs and small dogs (they see as prey) so didn't pick up. The situation could have been avoided if the Chi owner had been aware and picked him/her up.......Not that i'm blaming the Chi owner of course just trying to show how being aware is better than being violent. I've lost count of the times Pip has found himself swinging from the end of his lead/harness when a larger dog has ran up to him, as much for the other dogs protection as his own, he hates dogs running up to him.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes and most of those will have been caused by their own dogs. For instance years ago my Old English Sheepdog was racing about on the grass and ran straight in to my MIL taking her legs clean out from under her, she hit her head on landing and was unconscious for a short time - the doctor recorded that as a dog related injury which of course it was but not a bite by a savage dog just a doofus OED not looking where he was going.


Yup, had that done to me, too. Apparently it's a hazard with lurcher - they have the speed, but don't watch where they're going. She's also smacked me in the eye (more than once) andonly the other week, we were playing, she completely missed her toy and slammed straight into my hand (to this day, I don't know how she did it) sending shockwaves of pain from the hand to elbow. :Blackeye

I've advised my doctor that if I come in with an arm or leg in plaster, a split lip and a black eye or 2, I'm not a domestic abuse victim - it's just the dog. :Hurting


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## Adam888 (Apr 24, 2012)

LinznMilly said:


> OP, any dog of any size could attack you or your dog, and dog/dog & dog/human aggression are not interchangeable. If a dog attacks your dog, it doesn't, for example, mean it's going to turn on you.
> 
> Frankly, if I saw you walking around, carrying a knife - even a pocket knife - I'd be more likely to view _you_ with suspicion, not the dog.


Yes but you wouldn't see me or anyone else walking about with a knife. We are talking about small (under 3 inch) folding knives which in this case would be attached to a keyring. Under UK law any adult may carry such a knife in public places, it is not illegal.

Do I carry a knife now? No. I was simply asking a question. This is a popular forum, solicitor is a popular job. Thus by law of averages would assume there are many solicitors on this forum who may have an interest in this type of law and be able to give me an answer. My mistake, instead I have just got a bunch of hysterical snowflakes.


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## steveshanks (Feb 19, 2015)

Adam888 said:


> My mistake, instead I have just got a bunch of hysterical snowflakes.


No, I think you have a bunch of folks giving you common sense advice.


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## Adam888 (Apr 24, 2012)

Statistics in the USA. Over 4.5 million dog bites each year. Hundreds of thousands admitted to hospital and over 26,000 people requiring surgery.

Stats in the UK are less accurate and it's even harder to find statistics for dog on dog attacks hence why I'm quoting dog on human.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Adam888 said:


> bunch of hysterical snowflakes.


Says the one expecting to be attacked when he leaves his front door; to the point where you are questioning whether or not you can/should carry a knife to stab a dog to death.


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## Adam888 (Apr 24, 2012)

Nonnie said:


> Says the one expecting to be attacked when he leaves his front door; to the point where you are questioning whether or not you can/should carry a knife to stab a dog to death.


More hysterics. At no point have I said I am fearful of being attacked when leaving my front door. Planning for potential danger in a world full of danger, is not hysterical, it's smart.


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## icklemunch (May 4, 2015)

danielled said:


> Why would any dog owner want to kill another persons dog? I wouldn't and my boy was attacked when he was 1 that was the first time. Yes it's our job to protect our pets but it isn't our job to kill other people's dogs or any pet for that matter. It's up to other owners to keep their dogs under control.


And you're off again..


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## steveshanks (Feb 19, 2015)

I'm an ex statistician so i take those with a bunch of salt but 26000 in a population of 319000000 isn't bad


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Nonnie said:


> Says the one expecting to be attacked when he leaves his front door; to the point where you are questioning whether or not you can/should carry a knife to stab a dog to death.


:Hilarious :Hilarious :Hilarious I wish we still had rep.

Well said.


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## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

Adam888 said:


> This is a popular forum, solicitor is a popular job. Thus by law of averages would assume there are many solicitors on this forum who may have an interest in this type of law and be able to give me an answer. My mistake, instead I have just got a bunch of hysterical snowflakes.


You have just got to take the little bits of wisdom that this thread may contain.

Carrying any type of useful item in a dog fight mat be considered an offensive weapon in law.
My dog has been attacked a couple of times, I did kick one of them and it seemed to work. But it is a very risky thing to do, I guess it depends very much on the dogs involved.


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## Adam888 (Apr 24, 2012)

Those with children do everything possible to stop potential danger. You make your house safe, you teach them rules of the road. You dress them in appropriate clothing. As they get older you tell them to avoid certain areas. Certain parts of town or the city where crime is much higher. Even us as adults know certain streets to avoid at night because muggings are an everyday occurance. This is nornal and just means you plan for realistic, potential dangers. 

With dogs, a realistic potential danger is a dog attack. By planning for it, and a plan could be as simple as 10 minutes thinking about it, you increase your ability to respond if the situation arrises. 

Those who believe it is simply up to an aggressive dogs owners to control their own dog, wow, you are basically inviting serious injury as you stand back screaming not knowing what to do. It's people like that who are a liability.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2017)

Adam888 said:


> Yes but you wouldn't see me or anyone else walking about with a knife. We are talking about small (under 3 inch) folding knives which in this case would be attached to a keyring. Under UK law any adult may carry such a knife in public places, it is not illegal.
> 
> Do I carry a knife now? No. I was simply asking a question. This is a popular forum, solicitor is a popular job. Thus by law of averages would assume there are many solicitors on this forum who may have an interest in this type of law and be able to give me an answer. My mistake, instead I have just got a bunch of hysterical snowflakes.


Gotta agree that the one who sounds hysterical is you...

Okay, listen, a 3 inch knife isn't going to do jack squat to a large dog intent on attacking. Seriously. Even if you could get it out, unfolded, and we're halfway adept at using it, you're still more likely to hit a rib or just graze the skin than do enough damage to the dog to alter the course of an attack. 
And like I said in my first post to you, a dog who intends to kill a smaller dog will get it done probably before you have a chance to even react. It's really that fast. Have you ever seen sighthounds chase down and dispatch prey? Once they catch the rabbit, it's over in a second or less.

I have no idea where the law stands on using a knife against an attacking dog, but I do know from plain of common sense, that it's not going to work the way you seem to think it will. 
If you want to know how to effectively stop a dog attack, break up a fight, etc. I suggest you pay a professional to instruct you. Just know that in an actual emergency situation, everyone reacts differently and you may very well be one of those who forgets everything they've been taught and stands there unable to do a thing....



Adam888 said:


> Statistics in the USA. Over 4.5 million dog bites each year. Hundreds of thousands admitted to hospital and over 26,000 people requiring surgery.
> 
> Stats in the UK are less accurate and it's even harder to find statistics for dog on dog attacks hence why I'm quoting dog on human.


The vast majority of those bites requiring medical attention were bites from known dogs. IOW, the family pet. Statistically you're more likely to be bitten by your own dog than any other dog.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2017)

Adam888 said:


> Those with children do everything possible to stop potential danger. You make your house safe, you teach them rules of the road. You dress them in appropriate clothing. As they get older you tell them to avoid certain areas. Certain parts of town or the city where crime is much higher. Even us as adults know certain streets to avoid at night because muggings are an everyday occurance. This is nornal and just means you plan for realistic, potential dangers.
> 
> With dogs, a realistic potential danger is a dog attack. By planning for it, and a plan could be as simple as 10 minutes thinking about it, you increase your ability to respond if the situation arrises.
> 
> Those who believe it is simply up to an aggressive dogs owners to control their own dog, wow, you are basically inviting serious injury as you stand back screaming not knowing what to do. It's people like that who are a liability.


You're sounding hysterical again.

I've owned dogs for over 4 decades. Never had one attacked to the point I felt I needed to use deadly force. I've broken up more than my fair share of dog fights, some between Great Danes, and never felt the need for a weapon of any kind. I've put a kitchen stool between dogs, a baby gate, broom, a wheelbarrow full of manure... I've wrapped a garden hose around one dog's waist and hauled him away, but the vast majority of the time, a big bad primate display on my part coupled with keeping my own dogs under control is all I've needed.

I think if you're that concerned about an attack, you either have a very ignorant view of dogs and dog behavior, or you have a hysterical view of the world dangers in general.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Adam888 said:


> Yes but you wouldn't see me or anyone else walking about with a knife. We are talking about small (under 3 inch) folding knives which in this case would be attached to a keyring. Under UK law any adult may carry such a knife in public places, it is not illegal.
> 
> Do I carry a knife now? No. I was simply asking a question. This is a popular forum, solicitor is a popular job. Thus by law of averages would assume there are many solicitors on this forum who may have an interest in this type of law and be able to give me an answer. My mistake, instead I have just got a bunch of hysterical snowflakes.


Instead of looking for free advice from a solicitor on a forum why don't you put your hand in your pocket and go see one and ask for their professional opinion? There are no hysterical snowflakes here just sensible dog owners with years of experience of dealing with all sorts of situations. In the heat of the moment you are more likely to stab yourself with the knife or the hand of the other dog's owner as they try to grab their dog - try explaining that in court. You are far more likely to come across dangerous situations driving a car than you are walking your dog.


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## Adam888 (Apr 24, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> You are far more likely to come across dangerous situations driving a car than you are walking your dog.


That's why cars have seatbelts. Why we have traffic lights. Road markings. Speed cameras. All to limit harm in potentially dangerous situations.

And the argument of "I've been walking my dog 58 years and never seen this" doesn't add up. It's like when smokers refer to their 90 year old grandad who has smoked his whole life and doesn't have cancer. There are always exceptions.

Anyway maybe knife is not the best idea, I think a non lethal taser gun is probably the best bet.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2017)

Adam888 said:


> Anyway maybe knife is not the best idea, I think a non lethal taser gun is probably the best bet.


Aren't tazers illegal in the UK?
Are you in the UK or living in some wild place where packs of dogs routinely attack humans and their pet dogs?


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

What a strange thread.

Contrary to what some people believe, dogs who want to rip another dog limb from limb are actually very rare. There are plenty of dogs that have no social skills, dogs that are bullies, dogs who's behaviour is excused based on breed traits ("he's a collie, they nip, that's what they do", "he's a lurcher, they chase, that's what they do" etc) due to owners that can't or won't manage them, dogs with weak nerves.....but dogs that want to maul anything they come across, be it dogs or people, nope. I've seen plenty of handbags incidents usually involving one or more of the dogs above, but it's usually noise and bluster and not much more.

I think if someone is so paranoid they feel the need to carry a knife then dog ownership is probably not for them.


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## Adam888 (Apr 24, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Aren't tazers illegal in the UK?
> Are you in the UK or living in some wild place where packs of dogs routinely attack humans and their pet dogs?


There's certainly more than a few crazed chihuahuas around here.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Adam888 said:


> I think a non lethal taser gun is probably the best bet.


Not if you don't want to be charged with carrying a prohibited firearm it's not 
Try learning how to stop a dog fight effectively, rather than trying to justify carrying a weapon!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Adam888 said:


> That's why cars have seatbelts. Why we have traffic lights. Road markings. Speed cameras. All to limit harm in potentially dangerous situations.
> 
> And the argument of "I've been walking my dog 58 years and never seen this" doesn't add up. It's like when smokers refer to their 90 year old grandad who has smoked his whole life and doesn't have cancer. There are always exceptions.
> 
> Anyway maybe knife is not the best idea, I think a non lethal taser gun is probably the best bet.


Not quite true we know a high percentage of the population who smoke will end up chronic illness/cancer as a result and that those who don't are an exception. Whereas of the hundreds of dog owners on this forum those whose dogs have been "attacked" as in serious injury requiring veterinary attention rather than handbags/scuffles is very small. While traffic laws are there to limit accidents there are thousands of drivers who still choose to drive whilst under the influence of drink/drugs or whilst texting or without properly maintained cars/insurance. You are far more likely to encounter one of those in your everyday life than a "killer dog".


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## Adam888 (Apr 24, 2012)

Final question for all the apparent pacifists on this forum.

In the scenario I mentioned replace dog with your young child. If a big aggresive dog attacks your child. Is it acceptable to use violence then? If so would it be acceptable to kill the attacking dog? If god forbid this happened to your child and left it scared for life or worse, would you regret not having a means of defense? If you live in an area with lots of big potentially dangerous dogs around and you plan for a potential attack on your child, does that make you wrong?


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Adam888 said:


> Final question for all the apparent pacifists on this forum.
> 
> In the scenario I mentioned replace dog with your young child. If a big aggresive dog attacks your child. Is it acceptable to use violence then? If so would it be acceptable to kill the attacking dog? If god forbid this happened to your child and left it scared for life or worse, would you regret not having a means of defense?


Yawn..........


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## Adam888 (Apr 24, 2012)

My guess is any sane person would defend their child to the death in such a situation. They would do whatever it took to disable a dog attacking their child.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

What has being a pacifist got to do with anything? I wouldn't consider myself a pacifist but I also wouldn't consider carrying a knife just in case I need to stab a killer dog - I've had far scarier encounters with cows than dogs.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

@Adam888 , are you afraid of dogs, by any chance?

It's just, as someone who used to be, I recognise a lot of your statements as the kind of, frankly ignorant and paranoid things I would have come up with, as well as the over-preparation for such an event.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Probably a troll that doesn't own a dog, is it the Easter holidays?


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Adam888 said:


> I think a non lethal taser gun is probably the best bet.


It is an offence to possess, purchase, acquire, sell on or transfer such a weapon as a Taser and you can be severely prosecuted for being in possession of such under the Section 5 firearms offence.
Tasers can only be used by fully trained Police Officers, who have authority to implement their use in extreme situations. All Taser use by Police officers is monitored and recorded.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

labradrk said:


> Probably a troll that doesn't own a dog, is it the Easter holidays?


Not yet, but it's coming soon. Be prepared to duck


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

My wife is still laughing at anyone calling me a snowflake 

J


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

You gotta love pet forums for sheer entertainment purposes. This is definitely one of the more bizarre posts.. Its gone from "attacking my dog" to "attacking me" to "attacking a small child" I'm excited to see what it escalates to next :Woot

OP, it sounds like the question you're really wanting to know is "what would it take for me to be allowed to stab a dog?"  And that's rather disturbing.


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## planete (Jan 21, 2012)

You are more likely to be attacked by a human than by a dog, however carrying a weapon is illegal. Grow up and face your fears. We are not pacifists but we are civilised members of a fairly safe society, no matter what the tabloids would have us believe. As a five foot nothing slight elderly woman who walks three 25kg dogs every day I weigh the odds of possible trouble and get on with my life, without any weapons. I also used to break pure bred Arab horses and ride race horses. You get scared, you get over it.


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## Adam888 (Apr 24, 2012)

LinznMilly said:


> @Adam888 , are you afraid of dogs, by any chance?
> 
> It's just, as someone who used to be, I recognise a lot of your statements as the kind of, frankly ignorant and paranoid things I would have come up with, as well as the over-preparation for such an event.


I simply want to be prepared in case of meeting a dangerous dog. Just like I am prepared in case of meeting a dangerous human. Unfortunately London has many of both.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2017)

Adam888 said:


> My guess is any sane person would defend their child to the death in such a situation. They would do whatever it took to disable a dog attacking their child.


Your child is much more likely to be attacked by your own dog than a dog unknown to you. Statistically the overwhelming number of bites to children are from dogs they know.

And if it were my child, I would intervene in the most effective way. Hysterical, violent attacks back are not effective. I certainly wouldn't engage a weapon as it's just as likely you'll stab your child instead of the dog. 
But that is not something I worry about or ever have. My kids grew up with 4 large and XL dogs in the house and we practiced sensible management and they were never in any danger. They're now old enough to avoid dangerous situations and well versed in dog sense to do so.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Adam888 said:


> I simply want to be prepared in case of meeting a dangerous dog. Just like I am prepared in case of meeting a dangerous human. Unfortunately London has many of both.


Yes dogs have teeth - oh dear, have you only just realised that?


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2017)

Adam888 said:


> I simply want to be prepared in case of meeting a dangerous dog. Just like I am prepared in case of meeting a dangerous human. Unfortunately London has many of both.


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Adam888 said:


> I simply want to be prepared in case of meeting a dangerous dog. Just like I am prepared in case of meeting a dangerous human. Unfortunately London has many of both.


Yes I feel your pain, that picture of that dangerous dog is utterly terrifying, in fact I own one myself and both me and my small dog are utterly terrified! dem teef!


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Adam888 said:


> I simply want to be prepared in case of meeting a dangerous dog. Just like I am prepared in case of meeting a dangerous human. Unfortunately London has many of both.


:Hilarious Walking the streets with your knife drawn because you're anticipating a dog attack, or a chance rendezvous with a dangerous human, will not only get you noticed by an entire community, but the police as well, who will no doubt have prior authority to allow you first hand experience of their Taser.

Good luck with that one:Nailbiting


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

If you don't want to get arrested - you could always buy your dog some dog armour http://www.pixiesposhpets.co.uk/sto...PROTECT_YOUR_DOG_FROM_DOG_ON_DOG_ATTACKS.html


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)




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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Jobeth said:


> If you don't want to get arrested - you could always buy your dog some dog armour http://www.pixiesposhpets.co.uk/sto...PROTECT_YOUR_DOG_FROM_DOG_ON_DOG_ATTACKS.html


*I was thinking more along the lines of this for the dog......*










*.....and this for the dog walker*


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## Adam888 (Apr 24, 2012)

Jobeth said:


> If you don't want to get arrested - you could always buy your dog some dog armour http://www.pixiesposhpets.co.uk/sto...PROTECT_YOUR_DOG_FROM_DOG_ON_DOG_ATTACKS.html


I have looked into dog armour before. In America a lot of owners use armour clothing on their hunting dogs. Good heavy duty armour with kevlar. The issue for a small dog like mine is he would not have the strength to wear kevlar. And the items you posted would not help the dog if picked up and shook.

There is definitely an opening in the market for better designed armour for small dogs.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

Zaros said:


> *I was thinking more along the lines of this for the dog......*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But the one I posted comes in pretty colours!!


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2017)

Adam888 said:


> That's why cars have seatbelts. Why we have traffic lights. Road markings. Speed cameras. All to limit harm in potentially dangerous situations.
> 
> And the argument of "I've been walking my dog 58 years and never seen this" doesn't add up. It's like when smokers refer to their 90 year old grandad who has smoked his whole life and doesn't have cancer. There are always exceptions.
> 
> Anyway maybe knife is not the best idea, I think a non lethal taser gun is probably the best bet.


Taser actually can be lethal. Did you know we blind or visually impaired people are the target for idiots saying a long cane is a gun then as a result of stupid people we get tazered. Tazer can cause serious injury. So far from not lethal.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

Adam888 said:


> I have looked into dog armour before. In America a lot of owners use armour clothing on their hunting dogs. Good heavy duty armour with kevlar. The issue for a small dog like mine is he would not have the strength to wear kevlar. And the items you posted would not help the dog if picked up and shook.
> 
> There is definitely an opening in the market for better designed armour for small dogs.


They are made of touch fabric and similar to stab vests rather than the same. It does come with a warning that time is of the essence and you should always keep your dog near by. The x small one is for 9" so they are designed for tiny dogs. They have a Facebook page if you want to ask them about it.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Adam888 said:


> My guess is any sane person would defend their child to the death in such a situation. They would do whatever it took to disable a dog attacking their child.


I walk my dog in a park 3 times a day... 4 women have been sexually assaulted there in the 2 years I've lived in the area. I'm still not walking with a lethal weapon or a chastity belt under my bulletproof armour.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Jobeth said:


> But the one I posted comes in pretty colours!!


Do you know.....people want everything these days.:Facepalm

Here...try your hand with these aerosols and custom spray your own design...


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Adam888 said:


> Lots of women carry some sort of defensive item. Or perhaps your most defensive item is your face.


Medication wearing off is it?

Cheeky little 845t4rd!


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## Biffo (Mar 14, 2016)

Adam888 said:


> You may not. But if you were ever in the position that those women were, you may find you seriously regret that. Women's personal protection is big business. Lots of women carry some sort of defensive item. Or perhaps your most defensive item is your face.


Christ on a bike, that is the most offensive thing I've seen on here, which is saying something. I was going to join in the general mockery of you and your paranoid aggression, but nah, I'm out.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Adam888 said:


> You may not. But if you were ever in the position that those women were, you may find you seriously regret that. Women's personal protection is big business. Lots of women carry some sort of defensive item. *Or perhaps your most defensive item is your face.*


What a nasty, pathetic and childish thing to say.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> What a nasty, pathetic and childish thing to say.


I've reported it. No earthly reason why folks should have to put up with this sh1t.


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## Adam888 (Apr 24, 2012)

I was right. Snowflakes. So offensive, oh the outrage. Jeez...


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Adam888 said:


> I was right. Snowflakes. So offensive, oh the outrage. Jeez...


No its called common decency. Now take your penis extension of a little blade and bog off somewhere else with it :Finger


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Adam888 said:


> You may not. But if you were ever in the position that those women were, you may find you seriously regret that. Women's personal protection is big business. Lots of women carry some sort of defensive item. Or perhaps your most defensive item is your face.


Ooohhhh I like it when it gets personal :Hilarious
Nah, I've been robbed at knife point twice in the past 9 years so I definitely know what it feels to be in danger. Now off ya go back under your bridge :Troll


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## Adam888 (Apr 24, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> No its called common decency. Now take your penis extension of a little blade and bog off somewhere else with it :Finger


That's really offensive language. I guess when one uses offensive language it then becomes acceptable to use offensive language back? Like for like? Similar to in a dog attack...


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> No its called common decency. *Now take your penis extension of a little blade and bog off *somewhere else with it :Finger


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## AlexPed2393 (Oct 5, 2016)

That escalated quickly....


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Adam888 said:


> That's really offensive language. I guess when one uses offensive language it then becomes acceptable to use offensive language back? Like for like? Similar to in a dog attack...


The word penis is not offensive language - did you not do biology at school? It is the anatomically correct name for the male sex organ.


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## Sarahnya (Oct 27, 2008)

Adam888 said:


> They wouldn't want to. But may feel they have to. This is a last resort situation. Some dog's are vicious and out of control due to poor ownership. If said dog is attacking your dog (is most likely going to kill it if you don't intervene) what do you do? Intervention could also cause the dog to attack you.
> 
> If I am in that situation I would use any force available to stop the dog before it potentially even kills me. So, within UK law, if you killed an attacking dog, could you get in trouble?


I doubt any court would do anything more than a swap on the wrist if the other dog was offlead and attacked yours. Especially not if you said you felt under threat as well.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

It's like the full circle of trolling......

Starts with controversial question
Gets answers
Gets offended/defensive about answers
Gets more answers
Gets even more defensive and stupid in response
Mentions "dangerous dogs"
Posts picture of "dangerous dog"
.....thread goes down the pan :Hilarious


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## Laney_Lemons (Mar 23, 2016)

If ur dog attacked another dog would u stab ur own dog to get it to stop?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

ok...I think this thread requires goats

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









Sorry but I can't take this seriously...


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

:Locktopic I go off and get my hair done and come back to this !
The insulting post has been removed and OP warned.


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