# Border Collie 'eye' - causes aggression in other dogs?



## glenm (Jan 13, 2013)

I have a Border Collie, from working lines. He has a fairly strong 'eye' (he likes to 'stare' and has a high focus on whatever is interesting him).

I was recently advised that I should train this out of him, as it causes aggression in other dogs as they do not like being 'eyed'.

Any opinions on this? Is it advisable? Is it even possible to train out a dog's natural inherited behaviour?


----------



## Guest (Oct 19, 2013)

glenm said:


> I have a Border Collie, from working lines. He has a fairly strong 'eye' (he likes to 'stare' and has a high focus on whatever is interesting him).
> 
> I was recently advised that I should train this out of him, as it causes aggression in other dogs as they do not like being 'eyed'.
> 
> Any opinions on this? Is it advisable? Is it even possible to train out a dog's natural inherited behaviour?


I can attest that the herding "eye" can absolutely set another dog off, as I have one of those dogs who does not take kindly to the "eye". It's actually my friend's aussie that does it, and my Bates *really* doesn't like it.

JMO, but both of us have a responsibility in this scenario. I have the responsibility to control my dog even if the other dog is doing something he perceives as rude, and my friend has the responsibility to know that her dog's behavior can set other dogs off, and needs to manage her dog accordingly. All she has to do really is divert her dog's attention. If he starts with the hard stare, she just re-directs him. Not complicated at all. You don't train anything out of the dog, you just manage the dog's behavior.


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

My lot dont like the lie down pose that collies do either. Ive seen them get upset and start barking at a dog that lay down in herding/stalking pose then be perfectly happy the minute it got up!


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Yes, it can certainly cause problems and is not behaviour I would be allowing my dog to practise on others regardless of breed. I think as Ouesi says though, it's not something you have to train out as such, you can stop the behaviour very easily simply by asking him to look at you. He can't be doing that and staring at another dog.


----------



## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Collies giving the 'eye' will always result in a not very nice reaction from my girls (if they then approach them), so I'm afraid any Collie gets the wide birth from us.


----------



## glenm (Jan 13, 2013)

Just to clarify. At the time, Sam was not in the classic herd/stalk pose. He was in a normal sit position on lead, watching another dog at agility training.

I can understand the problem with a collie going into prey mode and sneaking up on another dog, but would just looking from a non-aggressive sit or lie down be a problem?


----------



## Guest (Oct 19, 2013)

glenm said:


> Just to clarify. At the time, Sam was not in the classic herd/stalk pose. He was in a normal sit position on lead, watching another dog at agility training.
> 
> I can understand the problem with a collie going into prey mode and sneaking up on another dog, but would just looking from a non-aggressive sit or lie down be a problem?


Yes, if he's sitting there giving the other dog a hard "herder overlord" stare, then yep, that can set another dog off.

Just stay aware of your dog and how he's affecting others.


----------



## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

glenm said:


> Just to clarify. At the time, Sam was not in the classic herd/stalk pose. He was in a normal sit position on lead, watching another dog at agility training.
> 
> I can understand the problem with a collie going into prey mode and sneaking up on another dog, but would just looking from a non-aggressive sit or lie down be a problem?


I suppose that depends on how each individual defines 'just looking from a non-aggressive sit or down'.

I compete with my collies at obedience shows and I would guess collies make up about 75% of the entries. In every test they all have to do stays (sit and down) in a separate stay ring. In the higher classes there may be 40 plus collies doing a 2 minute sit out of sight, followed by a 5-10 minutes down out of sight, left with about 6 stay stewards. There is very rarely any trouble and some of them are very strong eyed..!!


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

They often freak me out with that starey thing....no idea why, maybe dogs dont know why it freaks them out either!!


----------



## glenm (Jan 13, 2013)

The thing is, I would never let him do the eye, or the herding if I saw it was annoying another dog. He would be recalled back to me. 

Just the same as if a terrier is annoying another dog, or a lab is stealing a ball, or a doberman is being bouncy etc, I would expect their owner to do the same.

But, just a generic 'never let your dog stare at another dog' seemed a bit excessive!


----------



## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Ninja grew up with two collies and absolutely hates the collie stare, (ironic as she has picked up quite a good one herself as well as the stalk) well it prompts lots of barking any way.

A friend has a collie who will 'just do that, its a collie thing, as long as she can see the other dog shes happy' he says!

Thats ok then


----------



## Guest (Oct 19, 2013)

Well, put it this way. If your dog is sitting there "just watching" other dogs, but many of those other dogs seem to react badly to him, it's probably more than "just watching". 
If however, other dogs don't seem to mind, I can't see that there is any harm in it.

That said, I also agree with Twiggy. My guy doesn't like a lot of things, but he has learned to deal with them. Like sitting in a line in a sit stay next to other dogs who may have a strong eye. Though to be fair, 99% of the time, the herders next to him are not staring at him but at their handlers or in the direction their handlers went out of sight.


----------



## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

glenm said:


> The thing is, I would never let him do the eye, or the herding if I saw it was annoying another dog. He would be recalled back to me.
> 
> Just the same as if a terrier is annoying another dog, or a lab is stealing a ball, or a doberman is being bouncy etc, I would expect their owner to do the same.
> 
> But, just a generic 'never let your dog stare at another dog' seemed a bit excessive!


I always think its like when we are out and about in say a shopping mall, you look about, at all the people and your gaze might even linger on someone particular for a few seconds longer, thats fine and normal and shouldn't cause a problem, (unless it happens to be some overprotective blokes wife ) but if we were to fix our stare on one particular person for longer than a few seconds and they notice they would find it rude at best and thats all thats happening with the dogs.

They find the 'stare' rude as indeed it is, and react in a dog appropriate manner, all dogs do it to some degree but collies are very well known for it.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

glenm said:


> But, just a generic 'never let your dog stare at another dog' seemed a bit excessive!


Why? I don't let my Lab stare at other dogs. It's not polite behaviour and can be seen as a threat or a challenge. He can look at them but he's not allowed to just sit there and stare at them.


----------



## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

Yes - both Teddy and Whisper have reacted to collie's staring. 

The only dogs to have had a go at them were collie's too - separate incidents. On both occasions I was easily able to take preventative measures as the body language of the collie(s) was so obviously not friendly - low down stalking with rigid body posture - even though both times their owners were oblivious...... 

I do find the silent staring a bit freaky myself and find a gobby dog much easier to read / cope with and I think my dogs do too. 

Watch the reactions of other dogs to gauge how serious the 'stare' is! 

My sister' BC doesn't stare at all. But then we reckon he was chucked out (he's a rescue) for being a failed sheepdog, bless him. 

Teddy does the 'collie drop' thing - maybe he's got BC in him lol!


----------



## Guest (Oct 19, 2013)

McKenzie doesn't really have an issue with dogs staring at her, although if I see it happening I distract her so she doesn't notice, although she hates the crouch and stalk pose. However staring collies cause relatively frequent issues at agility, it sets heaps of dogs off.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

My mild mannered Toby seems to have a problem with BC's & I think it's the stare ... can't think of anything else.

Not that we meet many, but the few we have I am not sure people are aware that their BC is actually doing anything. However I know how Toby has reacted at times so IMO it is up to me to control my dog regardless of theirs.


----------



## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Flynn is very sensitive about dogs looking at him for longer than just a glance, and he will react negatively to it by barking and growling at them so I try and direct his attention on to me. Similarly, I dont allow my dogs to stare at others as it's simply bad manners. I have 2 collies but none give the collie eye at all, good job really considering they live with Flynn!


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

At our agility classes Roxy & a BC would 'eye ball' each other. They were both as bad tbh & I & the owner of the BC would try & stop this but at times the signs were so subtle or we would be trying to listen to the trainer that we wouldn't be as vigilant ... I suppose it's quite a difficult thing to manage properly


----------



## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

I cant understand how people could be so you must not let your collie do it, i understand a lot of dogs do not like it. but it was bred into them by us to perform a job that we wanted them to do.


----------



## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> At our agility classes Roxy & a BC would 'eye ball' each other. They were both as bad tbh & I & the owner of the BC would try & stop this but at times the signs were so subtle or we would be trying to listen to the trainer that we wouldn't be as vigilant ... I suppose it's quite a difficult thing to manage properly


At gundog training there is a GWP and a GSP who just stand and stare at Flynn (I dont think the GSP quite 'gets' him, and the GWP has always been an enemy!) so I usually spend my time on the edges of the group, trying to get Flynn to concentrate on something else otherwise he kicks off!


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

MrRustyRead said:


> I cant understand how people could be so you must not let your collie do it, i understand a lot of dogs do not like it. but it was bred into them by us to perform a job that we wanted them to do.


Because it's rude, threatening and confrontational. It can trigger aggression from other dogs which can very easily cause the collie to be defensive or become reactive towards other dogs. Why would you not want to stop behaviour like that? Not just in a collie but in ANY breed.

Sure, collies are bred to be starey, it doesn't mean they can't learn not stand there eyeballing other dogs until they react.


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

MrRustyRead said:


> I cant understand how people could be so you must not let your collie do it, i understand a lot of dogs do not like it. but it was bred into them by us to perform a job that we wanted them to do.


Yes, don't think anyone wants to try and change that - just see that it isn't used inappropriately. If all dogs were allowed to express behaviours that are bred into them whenever they felt the urge there would be chaos - you need to control them whilst at the same time providing an outlet surely?


----------



## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

MrRustyRead said:


> I cant understand how people could be so you must not let your collie do it, i understand a lot of dogs do not like it. but it was bred into them by us to perform a job that we wanted them to do.


but the majority of collies aren't performing that job. so collie owners need to be mindful that this behaviour is inappropriate. In the same way that allowing my scenthound to follow her nose with gay abandon would be inappropriate.


----------



## CockersIndie (Dec 14, 2011)

Indie doesn't appreciate being stared at. There are two very stare-y collies at agility and I actively avoid position ourselves in their sight line as she does react to it sometimes, plus i don't want her to be wound up before she's about to work.


----------



## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

completely understand that, i can see exactly why it causes such issues, but saying that most times i have seen them do it is because they are wary of the other dog. so just ends up making the situation a lot worse unfortunately


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

MrRustyRead said:


> completely understand that, i can see exactly why it causes such issues, but saying that most times i have seen them do it is because they are wary of the other dog. so just ends up making the situation a lot worse unfortunately


Surely if they're already wary of the other dog the last thing you want is them triggering a bad reaction from it? If they're worried and need to look then simply asking for a hand target or a watch me or something now and then is often enough to stop it being seen as eyeballing. Spen watches other dogs for a few seconds, glances away, looks back, glances away etc. He doesn't trigger bad reactions from most dogs with that, Ruperts constant unbroken stare did when I didn't catch it and block it.

And most people seem completely unaware their dog is being rude  There's a collie been to the dog meet a few times and he's been attacked "for no reason" a lot (not at the meet, just out and about). Watching him at the meet I can see exactly why other dogs react badly to him. He stares at them hard. He tries to control where they go and at what pace. He doesn't like them playing. And yet his owner simply cannot see that her dogs behaviour is what is causing others to react badly.


----------



## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

I get both sides of this debate. 

Dexter has the Border Collie 'stare', 'crouch' and 'stalk' down to a T....

There are times when I let him show the bahaviour and times when I won't let him. 

Most Retriever owners don't stop their dogs from retrieving. Most GSP owners don't stop their dogs from pointing. BUT! The Collie stare can provoke other dogs and it's not fair on both parties.

Dexter is a failed sheepdog. He failed because of 'sticky eye'... He would stare and stalk too much! 

Through OB classes and working with him, he now knows when it is and isn't appropriate to display these behaviours. Under NO circumstances is Dexter allowed to stalk and stare at dogs he does not know. He does it to Skip all the time but that's because Skip thinks it a game and Dexter plays with him. He also has a few other doggy friends that take that behaviour as Dexter's 'play' signal.

It can also be terrifying and very intense for owners who do not know Dexter and do not know what his intentions are and it does also seem as though he is ready to pounce...

So again, I see both sides but I also do not allow Dexter to display these behaviours around other dogs and people who are not familiar with him.

I don't think it's rude. It's instinct. But most people and dogs do not know that so I don't allow Dexter to subject them to it


----------



## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

MrRustyRead said:


> I cant understand how people could be so you must not let your collie do it, i understand a lot of dogs do not like it. but it was bred into them by us to perform a job that we wanted them to do.


And so. Retrieves retrieves things it still needs to be controlled. Terrier bark at things. Gsd guard things it doesn't make any trait appropriate all the time


----------



## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

labradrk said:


> Collies giving the 'eye' will always result in a not very nice reaction from my girls (if they then approach them), so I'm afraid any Collie gets the wide birth from us.


Do you mean any BORDER collie? Not all collies are border collies, and not all border collies have 'eye'.


----------



## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

MrRustyRead said:


> completely understand that, i can see exactly why it causes such issues, but saying that most times i have seen them do it is because they are wary of the other dog. so just ends up making the situation a lot worse unfortunately


There has been a response that hasn't been mentioned, if my dogs gets eyeballed when she is offlead she will avoid the dog as she finds it threatening and she doesn not wish the situation to escalate, on more than one occasion the collie has then chased her and pinned her down. However when she has been onlead and we have both moved in a wide arc we have both been herded and nipped. In both cases we have been told " Thats what border collies do"

So despite the fact that some of her best friends are collies and collie crosses ( in all cases with rather more savvy owners) given this combination of experiences all strange BC's on the horizon trigger avoidance behaviour to save us all the stress.


----------



## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

I used to have a Border Collie cross and he couldn't stand other dogs eyeing him. But he had a strong eye himself and the fact that he hated it when others did it didnt stop him from eyeing other dogs. I didnt allow it, but it was quite difficult to stop him since he was 3,5 when I got him and he'd been allowed to by his previous owners. I think it's a rude behaviour, which is the reason why I didn't allow him to do it.

When I had Lyle I used to meet a young woman with a Border Collie on our walks. He was always off lead (I never saw him on lead, ever) and admittedly he was very obedient. He walked to heel when they met other dogs _but_ he was eyeing them from a long distance and he always set Lyle off. And I observed her when she met other dogs as well and no dog was indifferent to his stare. It made some dogs very uncomfortabe, but mostly it set other dogs off. But the owner never ever did anything about her dogs behaviour. In fact, she seemed to be very pleased to have such a well behaved dog, who could walk off lead at all times, when other people's dog were misbehaved monsters and I don't think that it ever occured to her that it was her own dog that triggered the behaviour in other dogs. To be honest I was a bit mad that she was so ignorant to her own dog's behaviour.

Chansa doesn't have a strong eye, but she can sometimes stare at other dogs, but I don't allow her to do it either, since it's rude and it can set other dogs off, which in turn will set her off. So I think that it's best for everyone not to allow her to stare.


----------



## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Kite, Ziggy and I were most charmingly rounded up yesterday in the park by an elderly border collie. I sent my 2 off behind a hedge bordering the path we were on, whilst I stayed on the path, to see what the dog would do. This collie (Maddie, I later learnt) did a lovely outrun and herded Zig and Kite back onto the path next to me. Then her owner caught up and we had a nice chat; he said Maddie was from a working farm, but no farmer wanted her because her face was all white, so she'd gone to him as a pet home. Clearly had great working instincts and was a lovely dog all round. 

I can't say I've ever noticed my dogs reacting to collie 'eye', though we're around collies at agility a lot. Kite, being a Welsh one, is 'loose-eyed'.


----------



## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

moonviolet said:


> There has been a response that hasn't been mentioned, if my dogs gets eyeballed when she is offlead she will avoid the dog as she finds it threatening and she doesn not wish the situation to escalate, on more than one occasion the collie has then chased her and pinned her down. However when she has been onlead and we have both moved in a wide arc we have both been herded and nipped. In both cases we have been told " Thats what border collies do"
> 
> So despite the fact that some of her best friends are collies and collie crosses ( in all cases with rather more savvy owners) given this combination of experiences all strange BC's on the horizon trigger avoidance behaviour to save us all the stress.


omg that terrible no matter if thats a BC thing they shouldnt be allowed to herd you and your dog let alone nip you, if i owned that dog id be ashamed and be saying im so sorry and not just blame it on the breed.


----------



## Guest (Oct 19, 2013)

My BC has the border collie eye & does crouch and stalk. If he is on the flexi lead (in a field/park) and he starts to do that I reel him back in and keep a short lead. With the eye, I have found it difficult to not get him to do that, personally I've never had problems with other dogs due to this, most run up to him and want to play. I actively do a "watch me" when we see another dog, but sometimes it's difficult to keep his focus and he will sometimes be determined to "watch" the other dog; this particularly happens when the other dog is off lead and comes running up to us.


----------



## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

Neither of my two have problems with the collie eye being done to them... Jake will react to dogs staring him down in a certain way, such as the bull terrier that used to do it all the time and Jake used to go berserk - but Jake had many issues with him so that probably didn't help .

Arrow can sometimes do the collie eye. Generally, he ignores other dogs unless they start to approach us... and he will give the collie eye then, but it is more in interest at this dog coming towards us. Otherwise, he just ignores them. When doing the collie eye, I call him to me, and that in turn puts a stop to the collie eye... however, I feel it is the other dogs owner who is causing the situation, since they are allowing their dog to approach us. 

I don't think dogs should be allowed to go about with the 'eye' but I have seen other breeds do it - not just collies.


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

OP- the comment the trainer made is a bit inaccurate. 
You can never "train it out of them". It's hard wired instinctive behaviour in them, which is such a strong FAP response that it is going to be performed one way or another whether you like it or not. 

Our job as handlers/carers is to make sure that they are herding suitable things and have a suitable outlet. 

Dogs are not a suitable outlet. It's rude and intimidating. 

Be aware that less confident dogs will be prone to stare or even get to the point of herding things that they are worried/anxious about or over stimulated/highly aroused by. What do you do when you're not sure how to handle something? You fall back on your instincts. The scary/out of control thing "needs collie intervention". 

Collies have been bred for initiative, so they will make this decision unless you guide them to make a better, appropriate choice.

Interactions between dogs when one or both are eyeing and stalking eachother is not likely to end well. Either very OTT herdy rough housing (can lead to bullying), or a scrap when they eventually get to each other having worked themselves up before even getting close.
My working sheepdog has appropriate outlets/safe objects to work. He isn't allowed to stare at other dogs. It's rude and intimidating. I cue him to ignore dogs onlead and the vast majority offlead too (since he doesn't really care about dog-dog interactions anyway).


----------



## VickynHolly (Jun 23, 2013)

Holly will do it. But only when she is anxious about the other dog. When dogs get too close for her liking she will do this.


----------



## glenm (Jan 13, 2013)

Interesting replies. At the time of the comment by the trainer, in my opinion he was not even giving the eye- just watching what was going on. He wasn't 'staring' at the dog that was in action any more than I was! None of the other dogs appeared worried, threatened, or even noticed!

In fact at the session, one of the dogs had a run around, snarling at all the other dogs. The majority of the dogs had a go back and escalated the situation. Sam was just told to sit and relax, and so was left alone..

I'm beginning to think his 'eye' can't be very strong after all  I can't think of any occasion when his behaviour has caused another dog to become aggressive towards him. But then, we don't let him 'stalk' unknown dogs.

I still think there is a big difference between the full on stalk/eye/prey behaviour, and a dog (any dog, not just a collie) watching what is going on. For example, sit at a park bench with your dog. Another person/dog/animal/child walks past - would your dog totally ignore them, or watch them go past? Does this mean they are trying to intimidate them, or that they are interested in what is going on? Should you focus your dog on yourself so much that it takes no interest in anything else?
Of course, if the other person/dog/whatever did appear to get stressed or worried, I would focus Sam back on me. 

In the context of the comment made to me by the trainer, he was watching what was happening, not stalking (as were many of the other dogs and handlers). That's where my focus was, and so that was also where Sam's focus was.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Of course there's a hell of difference between a dog giving something the eye and a dog watching something, just like there's a difference with us doing the same. If my dog glances up at someone walking past then goes back to whatever he was doing that's perfectly acceptable and a very different behaviour to him looking up, fixating and staring at them unblinkingly for the next few minutes. 

It's not the fact they're looking imo, it's the hard unblinking stare for extended lengths of time and the seemingly threatening body language that usually goes with it that's the problem. It doesn't cause Spencer to be aggressive, it causes him to be very uneasy though even if no harm is meant.


----------



## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

glenm said:


> Interesting replies. At the time of the comment by the trainer, in my opinion he was not even giving the eye- just watching what was going on. He wasn't 'staring' at the dog that was in action any more than I was! None of the other dogs appeared worried, threatened, or even noticed!


where were you in relation to your dog when the comment was made?

The reason i ask is because there is a man that pavement walks his collie locally. This dog is beside him, his owner is clearly proud of how nicely his dog is walking, but is unaware that his dog is fixedly staring at the dog across the road.

Where possible i duck behind a car or up a side street until they are gone as it does make my dog uncomfortable. I've also observed it doing the same to other dogs and them reacting to this dog, the owner then gives them a superior sneer.

None of us were there so it's impossible for us to say was your dog watching or staring when the comment was made.

I just want to say, I don't dislike border collies, in the right hands they are wonderful dogs.


----------



## DollyGirl08 (Dec 1, 2012)

This is why I avoid collies. 
Simba and Skye do NOT like the collie stare and will both growl as thê become nervous with it. 
The amount of collies that have been offlead, ran over and started nipping at my dogs heels or full on attacking them is why I don't let my dogs interact with collies anymore. My dogs aren't there to entertain someone's collie who they cba to do any training or anything with. 
Even my nans collie spent the whole time I walked her nipping my feet!


----------



## Hudson87 (Aug 11, 2013)

I think Akitas also have quite a stare on them put that together with the curled up tail and point ears and well other dogs don't like it. 

If I see him go into a stare I will distract him or walk him off in the opposite direction. He also does the drop down and stalk thing, maybe he thinks he is a collie!


----------



## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

A collie who is nipping, attacking etc is just not being managed or trained properly... That is not how a collie should be behaving... just like the Labradors that come running up to us, jumping on my dogs and stealing the ball... just like the GSDs who come charging over, kicking off, barking and snarling... There are many of those breeds who are managed and trained perfectly well though. There are some of those in every breed. 

I have had MANY non-collie's who have stared at my two... in particular in situations like passing on the opposite side of the road. Arrow has only once had a dog take issue with him, and he wasn't even doing anything! The dog came running over to US and the dog just turned on Arrow after having a sniff... Arrow just tried to run away.


----------



## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

lozzibear said:


> A collie who is nipping, attacking etc is just not being managed or trained properly... That is not how a collie should be behaving... just like the Labradors that come running up to us, jumping on my dogs and stealing the ball... just like the GSDs who come charging over, kicking off, barking and snarling... There are many of those breeds who are managed and trained perfectly well though. There are some of those in every breed.
> 
> I have had MANY non-collie's who have stared at my two... in particular in situations like passing on the opposite side of the road. Arrow has only once had a dog take issue with him, and he wasn't even doing anything! The dog came running over to US and the dog just turned on Arrow after having a sniff... Arrow just tried to run away.


Had the thread been about other breeds, i'm sure they would have been discussed, however the thread was about border collies, i too have experienced staring and stalking from other breeds but that wasn't what the OP was asking about. Having a strong stare and hence the ability to cause a sheep to freeze to enable a single sheep to be separated from the rest of the flock is a particular trait that was highly desirable in a working border collie and remains strong in many pet BC's.

Yes in the examples I stated the dogs were not under control, but they were still displaying breed traits so I absolutely believed it was appropriate to mention them. These traits are stronger in some dogs than others and some owners are more aware and more on the ball at managing them. Please don't take it personally.


----------



## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

moonviolet said:


> Had the thread been about other breeds, i'm sure they would have been discussed, however the thread was about border collies, i too have experienced staring and stalking from other breeds but that wasn't what the OP was asking about. Having a strong stare and hence the ability to cause a sheep to freeze to enable a single sheep to be separated from the rest of the flock is a particular trait that was highly desirable in a working border collie and remains strong in many pet BC's.
> 
> Yes in the examples I stated the dogs were not under control, but they were still displaying breed traits so I absolutely believed it was appropriate to mention them. These traits are stronger in some dogs than others and some owners are more aware and more on the ball at managing them. Please don't take it personally.


My post wasn't in reference to your post. Discussing the 'collie eye' is one thing but to move on and start discussing collies running over and snapping at other dogs and/or attacking them is different, that has nothing to do with the 'eye' (which is what the thread is about) and the eye wasn't mentioned in those examples. I can't remember what you posted, but whatever it was didn't cause any offence with me  (hence me not specifically remembering it).

My mentioning other breeds was just to make the point that collies aren't the only breeds who do that.


----------



## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

lozzibear said:


> My post wasn't in reference to your post. Discussing the 'collie eye' is one thing but to move on and start discussing collies running over and snapping at other dogs and/or attacking them is different, that has nothing to do with the 'eye' (which is what the thread is about) and the eye wasn't mentioned in those examples. I can't remember what you posted, but whatever it was didn't cause any offence with me  (hence me not specifically remembering it).
> 
> My mentioning other breeds was just to make the point that collies aren't the only breeds who do that.


Sorry the impression i got from you post was that you were denying that collies do stare or that you were deflecting saying other breeds do it too. I think the more we are aware of the traits our dogs display the more able we are to work with them, enjoy them and not have any detrimental effect on others.

For my breed the traits that can be challenging. nose on legs, not overly handler focussed, easily bored , power chewers, etc etc etc.


----------



## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

moonviolet said:


> Had the thread been about other breeds, i'm sure they would have been discussed, however the thread was about border collies, i too have experienced staring and stalking from other breeds but that wasn't what the OP was asking about. Having a strong stare and hence the ability to cause a sheep to freeze to enable a single sheep to be separated from the rest of the flock is a particular trait that was highly desirable in a working border collie and remains strong in many pet BC's.
> 
> Yes in the examples I stated the dogs were not under control, but they were still displaying breed traits so I absolutely believed it was appropriate to mention them. These traits are stronger in some dogs than others and some owners are more aware and more on the ball at managing them. Please don't take it personally.


I have just re-read the thread and I think the post you think I am referring to was one that I read last night. That comment didn't cause me any offence nor did I take it personally because you said



> So despite the fact that some of her best friends are collies and collie crosses *( in all cases with rather more savvy owners)* given this combination of experiences all strange BC's on the horizon trigger avoidance behaviour to save us all the stress.


So, you making a point to mention that it is an owner issue and that when trained and managed right, they aren't like that... in your post earlier today, you said that you don't dislike BCs and that in the right hands they can be wonderful dogs... so again, you are mentioning 'in the right hands' so when they are trained and managed right.

I don't expect everyone to like BCs and their behaviour but I don't like this impression that some people give off that all BCs are bad, and they never meet a nice one etc, it happens time and time again on here and it becomes tiresome. But when people make comments such as yourself, and show a difference between those BCs that are managed and trained right, to those who are just left to run riot then it is different... Especially because every breed has those who are left to run riot and do unacceptable behaviours. I have no idea if I have made sense, I am a bit too tired  but I hope I have made some sense...


----------



## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

moonviolet said:


> Sorry the impression i got from you post was that you were denying that collies do stare or that you were deflecting saying other breeds do it too. I think the more we are aware of the traits our dogs display the more able we are to work with them, enjoy them and not have any detrimental effect on others.
> 
> For my breed the traits that can be challenging. nose on legs, not overly handler focussed, easily bored , power chewers, etc etc etc.


Oh no, I know that collies do the 'eye'. I posted last night and said that Arrow will do the eye if a dog starts to approach us - I just call him to me though, and in doing so it breaks the stare.

BCs have many breed traits that can be challenging or aren't acceptable, and owners need to manage them.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

lozzibear said:


> BCs have many breed traits that can be challenging or aren't acceptable, and owners need to manage them.


But there's the problem. People don't manage them. Half the time people don't even notice their dog doing them. Like the one I mentioned at the husky meet, she just cannot understand that it is her dogs behaviour causing other dogs bad reactions, not the other dogs being "nasty". I can pretty much guarantee it is his staring, stalking and attempts to control other dogs that cause the "out of the blue" attacks he's been subjected to.

I think the problem with the collie eye is that it's not obvious to people a lot of the time. Or they've been told or read that it's a breed trait so they excuse it, pass it of as "well that's what collies do". Nor do they have good enough control to prevent the dog stalking and nipping which is also often passed off as a collie thing. Same could be said for traits in other breeds but since this thread was about collies it's bound to be collie traits being discussed.


----------



## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

I'm not sure if I must be living in some kind of border collie utopia but I can honestly say I rarely come across this as a problem.

Scout doesn't have a lot of eye at all, he only gets starey around sheep, and he will do full border collie staring/stalking when playing with Mira, but around other dogs tends to just playbow and goof around. He rarely approaches dogs he doesn't know.

Mira is quite strong eyed but is generally uninterested in other dogs and doesn't often pay them any attention, unless she feels threatened by them. In which case I redirect her focus on to me.

I spend time with loads of other collies at agility tournaments practically every weekend, and I can't say I've ever seen it be an issue. The odd dog here and there, but nothing more.

We often run into loose collies when out and about walking the dogs, and again, can't say it's something that's cropped up.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

This is something I am extremely aware of these days, Thai may only be half border, but coming from working lines he has the stare down to a tee..

So I have to manage it and make sure I get his attention back to me instead. It can set some dogs off so i make sure that I don't allow it and have a strong "look at me" cue


----------



## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Jazmine said:


> We often run into *loose collies* when out and about walking the dogs, and again, can't say it's something that's cropped up.


Loose collies.. as is collies, with no owners in sight?


----------



## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

moonviolet said:


> Loose collies.. as is collies, with no owners in sight?


No, as in off lead collies out being walked. They go their way, we go ours. But then, generally that is what we experience from most dogs when out and about so perhaps we are just lucky. A quick good morning/how are you is about the only interaction that occurs.


----------



## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Jazmine said:


> No, as in off lead collies out being walked. They go their way, we go ours. But then, generally that is what we experience from most dogs when out and about so perhaps we are just lucky. A quick good morning/how are you is about the only interaction that occurs.


Maybe it's a local breeder or something as there seem to be an awful lot of frustrated herders locally.


----------



## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

moonviolet said:


> Maybe it's a local breeder or something as there seem to be an awful lot of frustrated herders locally.


Not sure if that comment was meant to be sarcastic but nevermind.

My original reply was merely stating my experience on the situation, that, despite travelling to agility shows in various locations, where I see many collies, I have never personally had any experience with out of control, herding maniacs.

I just thought it was worth mentioning the positives along with the negatives...


----------



## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Jazmine said:


> Not sure if that comment was meant to be sarcastic but nevermind.
> 
> My original reply was merely stating my experience on the situation, that, despite travelling to agility shows in various locations, where I see many collies, I have never personally had any experience with out of control, herding maniacs.
> 
> I just thought it was worth mentioning the positives along with the negatives...


Here's the irony for you, the worst collies i know have kcgc gold and compete in agility, but their owner seems to think when they on the ranges it is fine to let them run off and do what the hell they like, they have zero recall and he has been known to go home and come back later to collect them. If you approach him about being herd or nipped.... he says he didn't see it so it can't have been one of his dogs and if it was you must have done something to deserve it.

So there was no sarcasm... I truly wish all collies i encountered on walks were like the ones you have described. I wouldn't have had to give up walking one of my favourite areas completely if they were.


----------



## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Yeah the stare thing will set off my dog if I don't catch him getting bothered by it initially (this is only onlead) off lead he tends to ignore dogs now as he will have his football most of the time or be rolling about in smelly stuff etc.

But main reason for commenting on this thread is on Sat I was can-collecting for the wildlife trust in a precinct- when a man walking 2 on lead collies headed towards a man walking 1 off lead collie


It was like a Mexican stand (stare?) off

Everyone hunkered a bit on their haunches staring intently until some spell was broken and they all decided to be friends, whilst the owners had a wee laugh/chat/relief over it.

Then the off lead collie came to see me (wearing my dog walking jacket-reeking of treats- a ploy to make the dog owning public come and see what i'm fundraising for)

Anyway- just thought i'd share and wondered if it annoys collies or if like these ones they somehow 'get' the stare from each other?


----------



## sweetcharity (Feb 21, 2012)

moonviolet said:


> Here's the irony for you, the worst collies i know have kcgc gold and compete in agility, but their owner seems to think when they on the ranges it is fine to let them run off and do what the hell they like, they have zero recall and he has been known to go home and come back later to collect them. If you approach him about being herd or nipped.... he says he didn't see it so it can't have been one of his dogs and if it was you must have done something to deserve it.
> 
> So there was no sarcasm... I truly wish all collies i encountered on walks were like the ones you have described. I wouldn't have had to give up walking one of my favourite areas completely if they were.


The worst Collie I know is mine, and yes ,she has her KC Gold. Her stare is a nitemare to deal with,not with other dogs but with kids, bikers and joggers. Im reduced to taking her to the dog park!!


----------



## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> But there's the problem. People don't manage them. Half the time people don't even notice their dog doing them. Like the one I mentioned at the husky meet, she just cannot understand that it is her dogs behaviour causing other dogs bad reactions, not the other dogs being "nasty". I can pretty much guarantee it is his staring, stalking and attempts to control other dogs that cause the "out of the blue" attacks he's been subjected to.
> 
> I think the problem with the collie eye is that it's not obvious to people a lot of the time. Or they've been told or read that it's a breed trait so they excuse it, pass it of as "well that's what collies do". Nor do they have good enough control to prevent the dog stalking and nipping which is also often passed off as a collie thing. Same could be said for traits in other breeds but since this thread was about collies it's bound to be collie traits being discussed.


Yes, but there in lies the problem with many breeds... the thread is about whether the collie eye can cause aggression in other dogs - not BCs being out of control and not managed right - which then moves onto issues that are not related to the collie eye (which is what the thread is about)... I meet countless dogs of other breeds who aren't managed appropriately so it isn't only a border collie problem (the not being managed right).


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

lozzibear said:


> Yes, but there in lies the problem with many breeds... the thread is about whether the collie eye can cause aggression in other dogs - not BCs being out of control and not managed right - which then moves onto issues that are not related to the collie eye (which is what the thread is about)... I meet countless dogs of other breeds who aren't managed appropriately so it isn't only a border collie problem (the not being managed right).


I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make I'm afraid  Nobody has said that not being managed appropriately isn't a problem in other breeds. I'm not sure why you're so defensive either, if you don't allow your collie to stare, stalk and nip (seems to be quite a common sequence of behaviours) then good on you. But that doesn't change the fact that so many DO allow it. Either because they don't realise it's a problem or because "it's what collies do". To be honest it often reminds me in a way of the whole "my dog is friendly" thing. Owners in denial about it being their dog that's the problem rather than other dogs. And no, that doesn't just apply to collies either, you get it with Labs and their being sociable, terriers and their being snappy, shelties and their being barky etc.


----------



## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make I'm afraid  Nobody has said that not being managed appropriately isn't a problem in other breeds. I'm not sure why you're so defensive either, if you don't allow your collie to stare, stalk and nip (seems to be quite a common sequence of behaviours) then good on you. But that doesn't change the fact that so many DO allow it. Either because they don't realise it's a problem or because "it's what collies do". To be honest it often reminds me in a way of the whole "my dog is friendly" thing. Owners in denial about it being their dog that's the problem rather than other dogs. And no, that doesn't just apply to collies either, you get it with Labs and their being sociable, terriers and their being snappy, shelties and their being barky etc.


The thing that annoyed me, is that a thread that was started specifically about the 'collie eye' then went onto people saying they meet collies who nip, stalk, attack etc which is not at all relevant - that isn't about how dogs react to the collie eye. It wouldn't bother me so much if it didn't happen so often when these kind of threads come up (there was one just recently). Yep, I will get defensive when people jump into a thread and start spouting off things that aren't relevant to the actual thread... I have a BC who doesn't do those things, but when people make out as though that inappropriate behaviour is the norm, then of course it makes owners defensive.

I am going leave the thread now because there is nothing more to say on it...


----------



## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

moonviolet said:


> but their owner seems to think when they on the ranges it is fine to let them run off and do what the hell they like, they have zero recall and he has been known to go home and come back later to collect them.


I am fairly sure that happens with lots of breeds, not just collies. At our local parks, all the dogs are running amok, not one breed in particular. (Which is why I have always chosen to not walk in parks).

I am sorry you have had such negative experiences of the competitive agility/obedience community, thankfully we are not all like that! I am surprised, as in my experience, it is the general dog owning world that I have found to be worse, all the people I know who are involved in a dog sport tend to have the better behaved dogs.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Why is it that we're allowed to discuss the downfalls of breed traits in some breeds but when it comes to others people get all shirty about it? Nobody gets all defensive when people say Beagles are noses on legs and not handler focused or that Labs can be overly sociable,over the top, obnoxious and rude or that GSDs can be vocal. Yet say certain other breeds are prone to certain behaviours because of breed traits and it's another matter entirely


----------



## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

lozzibear said:


> The thing that annoyed me, is that a thread that was started specifically about the 'collie eye' then went onto people saying they meet collies who nip, stalk, attack etc which is not at all relevant - that isn't about how dogs react to the collie eye. It wouldn't bother me so much if it didn't happen so often when these kind of threads come up (there was one just recently). Yep, I will get defensive when people jump into a thread and start spouting off things that aren't relevant to the actual thread... I have a BC who doesn't do those things, but when people make out as though that inappropriate behaviour is the norm, then of course it makes owners defensive.
> 
> I am going leave the thread now because there is nothing more to say on it...


Yeah, but that's conversation, isn't it? You don't only stick to one very specific topic and not branch off from it. People are just sharing experiences of a very small percentage Border Collies.
No one is criticising *your* dogs.
I don't often see positive things about small dogs, Bull breeds and terriers, do I get annoyed? No, because it's not a personal attack on my dogs.


----------



## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

lozzibear said:


> The thing that annoyed me, is that a thread that was started specifically about the 'collie eye' then went onto people saying they meet collies who nip, stalk, attack etc which is not at all relevant - that isn't about how dogs react to the collie eye. It wouldn't bother me so much if it didn't happen so often when these kind of threads come up (there was one just recently). Yep, I will get defensive when people jump into a thread and start spouting off things that aren't relevant to the actual thread... I have a BC who doesn't do those things, but when people make out as though that inappropriate behaviour is the norm, then of course it makes owners defensive.
> 
> I am going leave the thread now because there is nothing more to say on it...


I really am sorry you have been upset by this thread it's not personal it's not about your dog, If you want to be angry be mad at those who are letting your fine breed down.

I did mention the stalking, herding, pinning as my dog reacts to the collie eye by avoiding, not an agressive reaction but still a reaction .... this in turn has triggered herding and pinning, so I felt it was worth mentioning that not all dogs react aggressively to collie eye, but the experience can still be far from a positive one.


----------



## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> Why is it that we're allowed to discuss the downfalls of breed traits in some breeds but when it comes to others people get all shirty about it? Nobody gets all defensive when people say Beagles are noses on legs and not handler focused or that Labs can be overly sociable,over the top, obnoxious and rude or that GSDs can be vocal. Yet say certain other breeds are prone to certain behaviours because of breed traits and it's another matter entirely


Hopefully I didn't come across as defensive. As I said previously, I just thought it was worth adding my positive experiences to the thread for some balance.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Jazmine said:


> Hopefully I didn't come across as defensive. As I said previously, I just thought it was worth adding my positive experiences to the thread for some balance.


Oh no, wasn't aimed at anyone in particular  I've just noticed that when it comes to certain breeds (not just border collies) there is no bad to be said about them at all. Not even when a certain problem or two seems extremely common in the breed.

I have wondered myself whether collies respond differently to the collie eye than other dogs do. I know Spencer is uncomfortable with it (perhaps seeing it as a threat?) whereas my own collie wasn't bothered in the slightest by it. Oddly enough Rupert wasn't bothered by collies staring at him while if another breed did it it was guaranteed to set him off.

Spencer and I met a lovely collie either last week or the week before. Didn't give that unbroken stare, didn't have the stalky movements when approaching and there was absolutely no nipping at all. The two had a very polite greeting and the the collie invited him to play so they had a good run around together. Sadly the dog sticks out because he was so very different to most of the collies I've come across  But then his owner was clearly responsible as she made to leash her dog until I called out that Spen was fine, just lacking in recall.


----------



## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Julesky said:


> Yeah the stare thing will set off my dog if I don't catch him getting bothered by it initially (this is only onlead) off lead he tends to ignore dogs now as he will have his football most of the time or be rolling about in smelly stuff etc.
> 
> But main reason for commenting on this thread is on Sat I was can-collecting for the wildlife trust in a precinct- when a man walking 2 on lead collies headed towards a man walking 1 off lead collie
> 
> ...


You might have a point there.


----------



## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> Oh no, wasn't aimed at anyone in particular  I've just noticed that when it comes to certain breeds (not just border collies) there is no bad to be said about them at all. Not even when a certain problem or two seems extremely common in the breed.
> 
> *I have wondered myself whether collies respond differently to the collie eye than other dogs do.* I know Spencer is uncomfortable with it (perhaps seeing it as a threat?) whereas my own collie wasn't bothered in the slightest by it. Oddly enough Rupert wasn't bothered by collies staring at him while if another breed did it it was guaranteed to set him off.
> 
> Spencer and I met a lovely collie either last week or the week before. Didn't give that unbroken stare, didn't have the stalky movements when approaching and there was absolutely no nipping at all. The two had a very polite greeting and the the collie invited him to play so they had a good run around together. Sadly the dog sticks out because he was so very different to most of the collies I've come across  But then his owner was clearly responsible as she made to leash her dog until I called out that Spen was fine, just lacking in recall.


There's probably something in that. Scout and Mira's use of the "eye" is saved for when they play with each other. They can often lie at opposite ends of a field "staring" each other out until one of them breaks and starts stalking. At which point the other runs out in a wide arc.

With other dogs Scout sticks to chasey play, Mira only really plays with dogs she knows very well, and that tends to just be wrestling.

I suppose other breeds might not understand the eye, so it will either freak them out, or they'll ignore it because they don't know what it means?

Thankfully for Scout, his playbow is universally understood across the full range of dog breeds


----------



## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

moonviolet said:


> You might have a point there.


Genuinely wondered if it bothers collies?!


----------



## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

Some dogs react to the stare and some to the crouch...


It can sometimes be a good thing.. There used to be a rottie round here who was quite the agro yobbo and would charge up to other dogs snarling and intimidating them (although he never bit anyone as far as I know) his owner had him loose and though it was funny.

One day he tried it on Oscar and Oscar didnt flinch he just met the Rottie with that BC stare......after a stand off which lasted about 30 seconds the Rottie tucked its bum under and shot off whining back to its owner..

We never had any trouble from him again.

All dogs will have traits which some people or other dogs wont like, its about give and take and respecting people ( and dogs ) personal space.


----------



## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Jazmine said:


> There's probably something in that. Scout and Mira's use of the "eye" is saved for when they play with each other. They can often lie at opposite ends of a field "staring" each other out until one of them breaks and starts stalking. At which point the other runs out in a wide arc.
> 
> With other dogs Scout sticks to chasey play, Mira only really plays with dogs she knows very well, and that tends to just be wrestling.
> 
> ...


Well when you consider herding is really a type of modified hunting behaviour it sort of all makes sense.

So maybe the eye could be considered collie dialect and the playbow core language.


----------



## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> Why is it that we're allowed to discuss the downfalls of breed traits in some breeds but when it comes to others people get all shirty about it? Nobody gets all defensive when people say Beagles are noses on legs and not handler focused or that Labs can be overly sociable,over the top, obnoxious and rude or that GSDs can be vocal. Yet say certain other breeds are prone to certain behaviours because of breed traits and it's another matter entirely


There are some breed traits that BCs have that it doesn't bother me people saying about... such as having the 'collie eye' or them being herdy but when people make comments about them nipping and just generally being aggressive then it bothers me. Being overly social or being noses on legs is hardly a 'bad' criticism  It certainly isn't in the same league as aggression. It is just the same as in another thread, JRT owners were annoyed/upset over people saying the breed are snappy etc, it isn't a nice negative for a breed to be given. I think it is also the frequency in which it gets said...

There are a number of breeds whose owners get annoyed when comments towards the breeds aggression is mentioned.

Anyway I said I wasn't going to come back to this thread, so I don't know why I did...


----------



## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

Gemmaa said:


> Yeah, but that's conversation, isn't it? You don't only stick to one very specific topic and not branch off from it. People are just sharing experiences of a very small percentage Border Collies.
> No one is criticising *your* dogs.
> I don't often see positive things about small dogs, Bull breeds and terriers, do I get annoyed? No, because it's not a personal attack on my dogs.





moonviolet said:


> I really am sorry you have been upset by this thread it's not personal it's not about your dog, If you want to be angry be mad at those who are letting your fine breed down.
> 
> I did mention the stalking, herding, pinning as my dog reacts to the collie eye by avoiding, not an agressive reaction but still a reaction .... this in turn has triggered herding and pinning, so I felt it was worth mentioning that not all dogs react aggressively to collie eye, but the experience can still be far from a positive one.


I don't think anyone is criticising MY dog since my dog doesn't do any of those behaviours. The thing is, it may be a 'small percentage' of BCs who behave like that, but that isn't how it comes across when people make certain comments...



> The amount of collies that have been offlead, ran over and started nipping at my dogs heels or full on attacking them is why I don't let my dogs interact with collies anymore. My dogs aren't there to entertain someone's collie who they cba to do any training or anything with.


I fully admit that I am sensitive when it comes to comments on BCs... because I have it said to me so often. Just the same as the owners of SBTs often react in a defensive way because their breed gets a lot of criticism, and JRTs too... I have been on a number of forums, and it happens time and time again.


----------



## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

lozzibear said:


> There are some breed traits that BCs have that it doesn't bother me people saying about... such as having the 'collie eye' or them being herdy but when people make comments about them nipping and just generally being aggressive then it bothers me. Being overly social or being noses on legs is hardly a 'bad' criticism  It certainly isn't in the same league as aggression. It is just the same as in another thread, JRT owners were annoyed/upset over people saying the *breed are snappy *etc, it isn't a nice negative for a breed to be given. I think it is also the frequency in which it gets said...
> 
> There are a number of breeds whose owners get annoyed when comments towards the breeds aggression is mentioned.
> 
> Anyway I said I wasn't going to come back to this thread, so I don't know why I did...


They are snappy, again a breed trait that was encouraged to ensure they react first ask questions later when cornered down a den or sett or something, if more terrier owners understood and accepted this it would be great  IMO!!

I dont mind people saying they are snappy, as its true and if your dog is prone to that behaviour it needs managing, whether its a bred for trait or not hence why I do.

I do get defensive when its described as aggressive as it isn't 'intentional aggression' but I think you are the first person to describe the collie behaviours mentioned as aggressive? If thats not true then sorry I missed that.

It is inappropriate expression of their natural in built behaviours though and that type of thing has to be recognised in all breeds if they are to be taken into the home and treated as pets and not workers.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

lozzibear said:


> There are some breed traits that BCs have that it doesn't bother me people saying about... such as having the 'collie eye' or them being herdy but when people make comments about them nipping and just generally being aggressive then it bothers me. Being overly social or being noses on legs is hardly a 'bad' criticism  It certainly isn't in the same league as aggression. It is just the same as in another thread, JRT owners were annoyed/upset over people saying the breed are snappy etc, it isn't a nice negative for a breed to be given. I think it is also the frequency in which it gets said...
> 
> There are a number of breeds whose owners get annoyed when comments towards the breeds aggression is mentioned.
> 
> Anyway I said I wasn't going to come back to this thread, so I don't know why I did...


Being obnoxious and rude is hardly a nice criticism either  Nor is being told your breed is stupid or untrainable or over sexed or snappy or whatever.

Nobody has ever said that ALL collies are nippy. Or that ALL collies are allowed to stare and stalk and nip which I actually don't believe is generally aggression as such although certainly not acceptable behaviour. I've seen aggressive collies and the behaviour looks very different. I've also seen the same behaviour in a GSD although his owner is usually on top of it enough to stop him before he gets beyond the stare which is the start of the sequence for him, just as it seems to be for a lot of collies. What people have been saying is that many owners AREN'T on top of the behaviour and just write it off as being what collies do. It seems to be a sort of get out of jail free card, they don't have to try to stop it because...well it's what collies do. Obviously it's the owner at fault rather than the dog but it's still a problem.


----------



## Guest (Oct 21, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> Why is it that we're allowed to discuss the downfalls of breed traits in some breeds but when it comes to others people get all shirty about it? Nobody gets all defensive when people say Beagles are noses on legs and not handler focused or that Labs can be overly sociable,over the top, obnoxious and rude or that GSDs can be vocal. Yet say certain other breeds are prone to certain behaviours because of breed traits and it's another matter entirely


People get weirded out when it comes to anything that can be considered "aggression" but the truth is, ALL dogs have aggressive tendencies. All dogs also have predatory tendencies - they are predators after all! Chasing a ball is part of the predatory sequence, as are herding behaviors.

Really, it's all just behavior - not necessarily a "good" or "bad" thing. When I say my dog is obnoxious and pushy, I don't necessarily mean that in a bad way. Being obnoxious and pushy can be a good thing when it comes to what traits I want from a dog. He knows what he wants and he's not going to be easily deterred, which are desirable traits depending on what job you want your dog to do.

Herders most definitely can be obsessive control-freaks (hence the nickname herder overlords - which I think is funny, not at all a put-down). And frankly, being an obsessive control-freak is not a bad thing at all when you want a dog who will work tirelessly to control a herd of sheep or cattle. Hell, *I* am an obsessive control-freak, and it serves me well in many areas. It's knowing when to temper those innate tendencies that gives me the sunny, pleasant personality that I have  :devil:

I love Suzanne Clothier's article on breed traits - here she's talking about breeding, but the discussion relates to this thread too. 
Drive and brakes and steering | Suzanne Clothier


----------



## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

I just want to clarify that the last quote Lozzibear's most recent post is not something i have said despite it appearing that way.


----------



## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

ouesi said:


> *People get weirded out when it comes to anything that can be considered "aggression" but the truth is, ALL dogs have aggressive tendencies. * All dogs also have predatory tendencies - they are predators after all! Chasing a ball is part of the predatory sequence, as are herding behaviors.
> 
> Really, it's all just behavior - not necessarily a "good" or "bad" thing. When I say my dog is obnoxious and pushy, I don't necessarily mean that in a bad way. Being obnoxious and pushy can be a good thing when it comes to what traits I want from a dog. He knows what he wants and he's not going to be easily deterred, which are desirable traits depending on what job you want your dog to do.
> 
> ...


Man I used to get soooo miffed at staff type stereotyping, but not so much anymore.

Now i'm just massively cynical about numpty owners instead  (half kidding- I'm never cynical-realistic maybe- but i'm a complete optimist for the human race)

Anyhoo- second bit, countryfile was on BBC 1 last night- special on one man and his dog finalists (for the non UK contingent- that's the sheepdog trials)-

Did anyone see the guy with the collie who was offered 10,000 pounds for him (think it was Northern Ireland?)- that's how good the dog was. Then it showed you him training a youngster, pretty immense seeing them in action.

Such skill in training.

And of course they had a token pup getting cuddled for the 'aw' factor


----------



## Tacey (Mar 4, 2012)

Julesky said:


> Anyhoo- second bit, countryfile was on BBC 1 last night- special on one man and his dog finalists (for the non UK contingent- that's the sheepdog trials)-
> 
> Did anyone see the guy with the collie who was offered 10,000 pounds for him (think it was Northern Ireland?)- that's how good the dog was. Then it showed you him training a youngster, pretty immense seeing them in action.
> 
> ...


I watched it! Was amazing  I loved watching that dog... the concentration on his face and those big pointy ears :001_wub: They were all amazing. Especially the guy who said he never does any training and just "wings it" at the trials!


----------



## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Kes does not do well with collies staring which is odd as she is part collie - she often tries to stalk and goes into a down when dogs approach but I grab her harness and pull her up and make her sit instead - I'm not having her stalking and lunging or pouncing on others

As for collie nipping oddly she loves husky mouthing but a collie nip will make her start a fight


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

lozzibear said:


> the thread is about whether the collie eye can cause aggression in other dogs - not BCs being out of control and not managed right - which then moves onto issues that are not related to the collie eye (which is what the thread is about)... I meet countless dogs of other breeds who aren't managed appropriately so it isn't only a border collie problem (the not being managed right).


I more than agree with you that there are countless dogs of other breeds that aren't managed properly and are an absolute nuisance. 
People are simply not aware of what they have on the end of their leads (of lack of lead).

That said, strictly speaking collies that are eyeing (it is more accurate to say *working*- that's what they're doing isn't it?!) other dogs without any direction from the owner are acting on their instincts and "out of (the owner's) control. Since it is far from uncommon for insecure dogs to do this with things they are worried about (scary stuff need managing ASAP) and the (inappropriate but understandable for a nervous dog who doesn't know what else to do with no guidance) response is likely to upset other dogs and cause scraps it isn't all that inappropriate to talk about the behaviour as a precursor for aggressive behaviour.

As I said before, herding/pastoral breeds, that stalk and try to manage each other on approach, are not in a position to be making good choices (too aroused) and so such approaches are likely to end in OTT herdy rough housing (can quickly get out of hand) or a scrap.



lozzibear said:


> that inappropriate behaviour is the norm, then of course it makes owners defensive.


I am sorry to contradict you, since you are obviously a responsible BC owner who manages their dogs well and enjoys them for it.

I'm afraid though, many BCs do not end up in savvy homes and people just are not aware of the lean mean herding machines that they have on the end of their leads. They really are clueless and it doesn't even occur to them to manage behaviour or work with the dog.

I say this as a BC/ sheepdog owner and at that, someone who ends up with the dogs that nobody else will have (luffs them as I do :001_wub: others could not manage, too complex behaviorally); Border Collies and sheepdogs are over bred, like ridiculously.

People see these handsome dogs in adverts on the TV and think "they look cute, I want one". Supply and demand and the naive idea that any old tom, dick and harry knows enough (about the breed itself and) about breeding these ultimately working dogs, means that there are tons of litters (of untested, poorly bred) pups being bred and advertised daily.
Frankly, they (and particularly the working lines) are specialist dogs.

So many people do not realize what they have on the end of their lead.

With regards to the bred being snappy; I agree it's a generalization (and generalizations rarely lead to accurate comments). Some working sheepdogs will nip when they are working (it's sometimes desired, sometimes not and a sign that the dog is highly aroused and a bit frustrated in the activity and that the handler is not giving the dog suitable direction/tasks). Similarly the working lines are bred to take initiative and make choices. The working lines' sensitivity to movement and other stimuli mean that in stressful situations, with a combination of triggers they are less likely to give as many stereotypical warnings (the type that less dog savvy people could identify) as in other situations. Any reaction is labelled as "out of the blue"/sudden. The warnings were there but identifiable more by experienced/savvy folk.

As I said strong working line dogs ought to be specialist.


----------



## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

glenm said:


> I have a Border Collie, from working lines. He has a fairly strong 'eye' (he likes to 'stare' and has a high focus on whatever is interesting him).
> 
> I was recently advised that I should train this out of him, as it causes aggression in other dogs as they do not like being 'eyed'.
> 
> Any opinions on this? Is it advisable? Is it even possible to train out a dog's natural inherited behaviour?


My husband is a shepherd and has a team of working border collies - some with strong eye. As eye in collies tends to be an inherent trait - stronger in some dogs than others - I would suggest it will be impossible to "train it out" of your dog, but you may want to try some distraction techniques if your dog does try to eye or herd other dogs. You might try getting him really focused on a special toy (that only comes out on walks) and bring the toy out when passing strange dogs. Build his focus and interest in the toy in having really exciting and energetic short games with this particular toy, putting it away before he gets bored, so he will always be wanting more.

I haven't read the other replies yet, so apologies if I am repeating what has already been said.


----------



## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

moonviolet said:


> Had the thread been about other breeds, i'm sure they would have been discussed, however the thread was about border collies, i too have experienced staring and stalking from other breeds but that wasn't what the OP was asking about. *Having a strong stare and hence the ability to cause a sheep to freeze to enable a single sheep to be separated from the rest of the flock is a particular trait that was highly desirable in a working border collie and remains strong in many pet BC's. *
> 
> Yes in the examples I stated the dogs were not under control, but they were still displaying breed traits so I absolutely believed it was appropriate to mention them. These traits are stronger in some dogs than others and some owners are more aware and more on the ball at managing them. Please don't take it personally.


That is because the majority of pet border collies come from generations of working dogs. Many "undesirable" traits seen in pet collies are not a problem in working collies because they aren't exposed to as many different situations and experiences. Hence there are so many debates about whether working bred collies make good pets.


----------



## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Moobli said:


> That is because the majority of pet border collies come from generations of working dogs. Many "undesirable" traits seen in pet collies are not a problem in working collies because they aren't exposed to as many different situations and experiences. Hence there are so many debates about whether working bred collies make good pets.


There were 7 generations of shepherds on my mother's side of the family and it was certainly their view that a working collie wouldn't fit in with the *average* suburban life of a pet dog. This doesn't mean that with understanding of their traits and drives accommodation can't be made just that many pet owners don't.


----------



## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Perhaps it's because I have a collie that my perception is that on here it's just fine to bash collies and make sweeping generalisations, whereas with some other breeds, any suggestion of criticism causes an outcry.
Anyway, I've got a very starey BC. He's also fairly tense around dogs he doesn't know. He doesn't get bad reactions from other dogs, the opposite in fact, they want to befriend him when he'd rather ignore them and get on with whatever we are doing. Go figure.
I wonder if that has anything to do with being in sheep country and owners being at ease with collie behaviour? Maybe the dogs pick up on their owners' issues?


----------



## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

myshkin said:


> Perhaps it's because I have a collie that my perception is that on here it's just fine to bash collies and make sweeping generalisations, whereas with some other breeds, any suggestion of criticism causes an outcry.
> Anyway, I've got a very starey BC. He's also fairly tense around dogs he doesn't know. He doesn't get bad reactions from other dogs, the opposite in fact, they want to befriend him when he'd rather ignore them and get on with whatever we are doing. Go figure.
> I wonder if that has anything to do with being in sheep country and owners being at ease with collie behaviour? Maybe the dogs pick up on their owners' issues?


My posts have been statements have been from personal experience in this area and i have balanced them by saying i have met many wonderful collies who's needs are being met however I also have encountered many others who sadly don't.

My dog wants to avoid the starey collies who are then allowed to herd nip and pin her and according to their owners that's ok "because that's what collies do".....just a statement of my experience here.

Like any breed with strong traits, a dream in the right hands a nightmare in those who do not work with their dogs proclivities..


----------



## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

moonviolet said:


> My posts have been statements have been from personal experience in this area and i have balanced them by saying i have met many wonderful collies who's needs are being met however I also have encountered many others who sadly don't.
> 
> My dog wants to avoid the starey collies who are then allowed to herd nip and pin her and according to their owners that's ok "because that's what collies do".....just a statement of my experience here.
> 
> Like any breed with strong traits, a dream in the right hands a nightmare in those who do not work with their dogs proclivities..


I can see nipping and pinning would be pretty distressing - but then it's not the stare that's the problem there is it? I can honestly say I've never seen the look alone cause a bad reaction. Not to say it doesn't happen, I just wonder if there isn't a bit more to it.


----------



## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

myshkin said:


> I can see nipping and pinning would be pretty distressing - but then it's not the stare that's the problem there is it? I can honestly say I've never seen the look alone cause a bad reaction. Not to say it doesn't happen, I just wonder if there isn't a bit more to it.


It's the stare that makes my dog uncomfortable and want to avoid and begin to take an arc around them. So for us it is the very beginning of problem.


----------



## Guest (Nov 7, 2013)

myshkin said:


> I can see nipping and pinning would be pretty distressing - but then it's not the stare that's the problem there is it? I can honestly say I've never seen the look alone cause a bad reaction. Not to say it doesn't happen, I just wonder if there isn't a bit more to it.


Staring is very rude, at least that's what my mother always taught me.


----------



## zedder (Aug 21, 2013)

Train the eye out of a bc that is probably the daftest statement I've heard its a breed characteristic I was always told too work with the traits not againstall them.


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

zedder said:


> Train the eye out of a bc that is probably the daftest statement I've heard its a breed characteristic I was always told too work with the traits not againstall them.


I think that people are saying to work with the traits - allow plenty of opportunities for the dog to have an outlet for natural behaviours but don't allow the dog to exhibit behaviour that causes a problem for other dogs whilst around them.


----------



## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Dogless said:


> I think that people are saying to work with the traits - allow plenty of opportunities for the dog to have an outlet for natural behaviours but don't allow the dog to exhibit behaviour that causes a problem for other dogs whilst around them.


Exactly this.

I'm really sorry some collie owners have felt their breed has been bashed on this thread, I don't really see it as any different as saying, the friendliness of labradors and their tendency to go and say hi to every dog like they are a longlost friend can be an issue to other dogs. Surely no one wants to be an issue to others? This is a forum for open discussion ?


----------



## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

moonviolet said:


> Exactly this.
> 
> I'm really sorry some collie owners have felt their breed has been bashed on this thread, I don't really see it as any different as saying, the friendliness of labradors and their tendency to go and say hi to every dog like they are a longlost friend can be an issue to other dogs. Surely no one wants to be an issue to others? This is a forum for open discussion ?


I don't feel this thread has been particularly bad...although there have been a couple of sweeping statements that would cause an uproar if made about other breeds. Certainly your comments have been balanced. I can see why people would feel defensive in a more general sense, that's all.

I won't be losing any sleep over it, but remarks about oblivious collie owners suggest to me that in some minds the fact that I have never observed other dogs to react badly means I'm clearly wandering around blind to the aggro my dog must be causing simply by being a collie. 
For me, I'm uncomfortable with extrapolating from my own experience to the conclusion that it is universally true. If that were the case I would avoid labs totally and assume all their owners didn't bother controlling or training them.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

moonviolet said:


> Exactly this.
> 
> I'm really sorry some collie owners have felt their breed has been bashed on this thread, I don't really see it as any different as saying, the friendliness of labradors and their tendency to go and say hi to every dog like they are a longlost friend can be an issue to other dogs. Surely no one wants to be an issue to others? This is a forum for open discussion ?


Exactly. I think all breeds have traits that can be a problem if not handled correctly. And all too often the owners aren't aware of them even being a problem. So many people with Labs don't see their dogs sociable nature as a problem, after all, the dog means no harm and is friendly so rushing up to greet al and sundry isn't an issue is it? I have a friend with a gundog breed who is obsessed with chasing birds, she doesn't see it as an issue and encourages it despite the fact the dog will take off and disappear for long periods of time chasing birds and she cannot call her off. Doesn't matter as "she'll never catch one" apparently. Her catching one does't concern me anywhere near as much as her getting hit by a train or car or shot for being in a field with sheep to be honest.

It's certainly not just collies who have behaviours that need to be managed. Nor is it that I dislike collies or am uncomfortable around them. I actually only noticed the behaviour of the one at the husky meet because I noticed my dog going out of his way to avoid him which is very unusual for him when a dog has not shown aggression towards him and because so many of the other dogs were getting irate at him. It was all quite subtle and his owner could not understand why her dog was eliciting such responses and why nobody would play with him. There used to be a GSD who came who exhibited the same sorts of behaviour but because his owners were aware of it as a problem it very rarely was one, as soon as he started to stare he'd be told to leave it and redirected.


----------



## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

myshkin said:


> I won't be losing any sleep over it, but remarks about oblivious collie owners suggest to me that in some minds the fact that I have never observed other dogs to react badly means I'm clearly wandering around blind to the aggro my dog must be causing simply by being a collie.
> For me,* I'm uncomfortable with extrapolating from my own experience to the conclusion that it is universally true.* If that were the case I would avoid labs totally and assume all their owners didn't bother controlling or training them.


And who is doing that?


----------



## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

As a collie owner, I don't feel this thread was bashing the breed at all. When taking on a breed that has been bred to do a job, then it is our responsibility to learn all about what inherent instincts *may* lurk in our pet and educate ourselves on how best to deal with them and work with them so they don't become a problem for us or for anyone else.


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Moobli said:


> As a collie owner, I don't feel this thread was bashing the breed at all. When taking on a breed that has been bred to do a job, then it is our responsibility to learn all about what inherent instincts *may* lurk in our pet and educate ourselves on how best to deal with them and work with them so they don't become a problem for us or for anyone else.


This exactly ^^^

Very well said. I agree completely :thumbup1:

I'd also say that by learning about inherent instincts, appropriately redirecting them where appropriate, we also learn to enjoy the dogs for what they are and what they love doing. 
Sometimes people we come across might pause for a second to watch me working my dog, just out of interest because it's a bit different and that's nice. And I love seeing him work too.


----------

