# Did not tie!



## JJAK (May 28, 2010)

right, random question that should probably know however my brain has gone blank!

My dog covered a bitch on saturday, 
he mounted her and got inside, was there for about 5 mins lol.
however when they went to tie the bitch ran off, so, can she still get pregnant?


the owner brought her back round yesterday and she wouldnt stand for our dog, 
i was told that she had either taken (as they know!) or she had gone over (yesterday would of been the 4th day after she finished spotting!)


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

JJAK said:


> right, random question that should probably know however my brain has gone blank!
> 
> My dog covered a bitch on saturday,
> he mounted her and got inside, was there for about 5 mins lol.
> ...


It is possible to have puppies as a result from slip mating, or so I have heard. 
But sounds to me that she had gone over and she was covered too late or alternatively she is not yet ready. My bitch stood for the male as early as day 10 but would not allow a tie, they ties on day 14 & 16 (counting day 1 as the first day of her season)


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## JJAK (May 28, 2010)

Lucy1012 said:


> It is possible to have puppies as a result from slip mating, or so I have heard.
> But sounds to me that she had gone over and she was covered too late or alternatively she is not yet ready. My bitch stood for the male as early as day 10 but would not allow a tie, they ties on day 14 & 16 (counting day 1 as the first day of her season)


I did ask the owner when the first day of her season was so i could work it out but shes not got back in touch to tell me, she only rang Saturday morning to ask to use our dog, as her own was not tall enough hehe!


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

hhhmmm 

What breed are the dogs??

If I were you, I would return her stud fee and suggest she tries again next season. If she has tried with her own dog first and a similar thing happened it is quite possible to end up with pups and not know who sired them. Think in this case it might be a better option to cut your losses.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

I'm dubious that things have taken. Yes it is possible for slip matings to take and you always hear of the stories of a quick in and out (so to speak) and 12 puppies in the litter. As she was so close to going over though it maybe a case as that you slightly missed her, so I wouldn't get your hopes up. 

This is why I always progesterone test. I insist upon it for any bitch coming to my boy (for the simple reason I don't want them spreading that my boy is firing blanks). But I always progesterone test my bitches so that I know exactly when the ovulate so I know when/ if the bitch goes over delivery date... even 2 days can be very dangerous for both bitch and puppies.

The only thing you can do now is wait 28 days for her to be scanned. Don't be tempted to scan before as they will only pick up changes in the uterus, which can happen in true and phantom pregnancies.

ETA- personally I wouldn't return the stud fee, but offer her a free return. What did your contract say? The stud fee is paying for the service not the puppies, so you are entitled to keep this. When all said and done, your dog did his job if the bitch stopped the tie happening then that is out of your control.


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## JJAK (May 28, 2010)

Lucy1012 said:


> hhhmmm
> 
> What breed are the dogs??
> 
> If I were you, I would return her stud fee and suggest she tries again next season. If she has tried with her own dog first and a similar thing happened it is quite possible to end up with pups and not know who sired them. Think in this case it might be a better option to cut your losses.


They are both JRT's
As it was such late notice (she rang at 1 and was here by half past!) she asked if pick of the litter would be ok for payment instead of stud fee, i said yes as i knew she was close to going over so at least the owner hasnt lost out!

i have also said that if she doesnt/hasnt taken then she can bring her bitch back next season and the same terms would stand.

i have a written agreement between the two of us that when the bitch eventually takes i get pick of the litter and until then no payment is to pass hands. Luckily i know my boy doesnt fire blanks  (weve had a sperm count done!) i just think maybe the owner had left it abit late to give her dog 'another chance' at covering her bitch!!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Lucy1012 said:


> It is possible to have puppies as a result from slip mating, or so I have heard.
> But sounds to me that she had gone over and she was covered too late or alternatively she is not yet ready. My bitch stood for the male as early as day 10 but would not allow a tie, they ties on day 14 & 16 (counting day 1 as the first day of her season)


There are no hard and fast rules for when a bitch is ready - which is why, like Tanya, I always test.

My eldest bitch has had two litters (one of 8, and one of 9) from a day 8/9 mating and a day 8/10 mating - yet she stands from day 3 for the entire duration of her season and would mate the table leg if she could get away with it.

Her daughter OTOH gives NO indication of being ready for mating, even when the tests said she was ready (day 14) - the minute the stud dog came near her, the tail was right over - so the tests were spot on despite my doubts.

===================

It does sound like she was at the end of her fertile period - fingers crossed for pups, or no doubt another visit next season


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## JJAK (May 28, 2010)

swarthy said:


> There are no hard and fast rules for when a bitch is ready - which is why, like Tanya, I always test.
> 
> My eldest bitch has had two litters (one of 8, and one of 9) from a day 8/9 mating and a day 8/10 mating - yet she stands from day 3 for the entire duration of her season and would mate the table leg if she could get away with it.
> 
> ...


See, as it was sort of a last minute mating and i wasnt there (had to go to a horse show!) iv sort of got all the information 2nd hand from my OH.
apparently he covered her 3 times but each time he went to tie she yelped and ran off (i asked my OH why she wasnt held and he said she was, by the owners daughter but it made no difference!) However he said although they did not tie, her bits tightened right up...would this in one way have the same affect of tying...or is that a stupid question??


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

JJAK said:


> See, as it was sort of a last minute mating and i wasnt there (had to go to a horse show!) iv sort of got all the information 2nd hand from my OH.
> apparently he covered her 3 times but each time he went to tie she yelped and ran off (i asked my OH why she wasnt held and he said she was, by the owners daughter but it made no difference!) However he said although they did not tie, her bits tightened right up...would this in one way have the same affect of tying...or is that a stupid question??


I would hazard a guess that it was her way of preventing the mating - if she was maiden bitch, probably understandable. Or it might be they just couldn't get into position for the tie. Was it your boy's first time as well?

If you are new to this, then it might be worth you getting an experienced hand on side in case you need advice / support next time (i know you weren't given much notice this time!!!!)

My boy has just had all his health results back, and although I've supported matings for dogs big and small (big being my own bitches) - I will look for support if / when someone wants to use him - no-ones got past first post yet on that front as they've all been turned away 

I am surprised they weren't able to hold the bitch though - flipping heck - she's a JRT not a mountain dog 

Unfortunately, a mating isn't always the most pleasant experience for the bitch, particularly a first timer, and if the girl was a maiden, and the owners novices -


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## JJAK (May 28, 2010)

our dog is proven, currently sired 2 litters and isnt exacally the 'wine and dine type' more the 'wham bam thankyou mam' type hehe! 

i dont think it was the bitches first time, yet not 100% sure as the owner has not been back in touch like she said she would, supposedly she was a neo/GSD breeder, so why holding a JRT was so much of an issue iv got NO idea!! 

on a normal occasion the bitches come and stay with us so that our dog can cover them when their is ready (as some owners dont have their bitches tested) 
however this owner was apparently so 'wrap my dog in cotton wool-ish' that she refused to leave her with us, god knows why, its not like ima sell it to a chinese take away!!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

JJAK said:


> our dog is proven, currently sired 2 litters and isnt exacally the 'wine and dine type' more the 'wham bam thankyou mam' type hehe!


Awww bless - I think my boy is going to be the 'would you like to play with my toys' type of boy, and when I say toys, I do actually mean toys 



JJAK said:


> i dont think it was the bitches first time, yet not 100% sure as the owner has not been back in touch like she said she would, supposedly she was a neo/GSD breeder, so why holding a JRT was so much of an issue iv got NO idea!!
> 
> on a normal occasion the bitches come and stay with us so that our dog can cover them when their is ready (as some owners dont have their bitches tested)
> however this owner was apparently so 'wrap my dog in cotton wool-ish' that she refused to leave her with us, god knows why, its not like ima sell it to a chinese take away!!


:lol: :lol: I have to say, no disrespect to any stud owner, but I wouldn't leave my bitch to stay over for mating, not because I didn't trust them, but I would want to be with her every step of the way, however much I felt for her.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

The semen is inserted in 3 stages. The first (pre ejaculation) part of the semen is basically just clearing out the tubes so to speak . This often is produced to lubricate the passage way for the insertion of the penis (much like with humans). It contains a few sperm, but likely hood for pregnancy is incredibly slim, much like the withdrawal method for human natural contraception.
The second part of the ejactulant is the sperm rich solution. This occurs when the "climbing the stairs" humping takes place. It looks like the males are climbing stairs rather than than pushing in and out.
The third part of ejaculant (released during the tie)is the fatty vitamin filled fluid, that not only helps to motilate the sperm to swim through the uterus, but it also "feeds" the sperm. The sperm actually sticks to the sides of the uterus until the eggs are ripe, then they release and go on a swim in search of the eggs. They can stick to the sides for up to 7 days, being kept alive by the 3rd part of ejaculant by feeding of the fatty material. This is the reason why the tie is so important.

However, the tie can be faked by holding the stud inside the the bitch for a while after the climbing the stairs has finished, until all stages have passed 10 mins after finished stair climbing. Sometimes due to a size difference in genitalia a tie is impossible to achieve, either male doesn't swell enough, or bitch doesn't tighten enough to hold him in. This is where an experienced stud handler is an invaluable asset to have.

This is why her bits tightening isn't the same as a tie. It sounds to me like she was either not ready or well over if she was having to be held during the mating. She probably tightened up to prevent him re penetrating her.


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## JJAK (May 28, 2010)

swarthy said:


> :lol: :lol: I have to say, no disrespect to any stud owner, but I wouldn't leave my bitch to stay over for mating, not because I didn't trust them, but I would want to be with her every step of the way, however much I felt for her.


Forgot to say that the ones that stay over are normally the ones that have traveled a fair bit of distance,this is normally suggested by the dogs owner so that they dont keep having to travel backwards and forwards, i know how expensive petrol is.

im going along the lines that shed gone over, apparently her dog tried to cover the bitch for 3 days again with no success...but supposedly hes far too small for her!!

ah well, neither of us have lost anything and my dog thinks hes the best thing since sliced bread at the moment...so least he thinks hes done his job HAHA!


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

JJAK said:


> apparantly her dog tried to cover the bitch for 3 days again with no success...but supposedly hes far too small for her!!
> 
> ah well, neither of us have lost anything and my dog thinks hes the best thing since sliced bread at the moment...so least he thinks hes done his job HAHA!


This is what worries me about this bitch owner. I would never ever introduce my bitch to a second stud if I had tried for 3 days with another and had slip matings, surely as slip matings do produce sperm (and they do, my patio saw it by the bucket load lol) then it is immoral to then approach another stud owner. But hey ho, you have lost nothing, so no harm done.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

If this hapens to a KC reg bitch it is paramount for DNAing each pup to identifying the sire. Can be very expensive if you have a big litter. 10 puppies could cost up to £1500+ especially if the sires haven't already been profiled. Its your job to pay for the sire testing as well, as you chose to mate to 2 dogs, or your responsibility if you allowed 2 dogs to get to her.

For unregistered dogs its not really important unless one was unhealth tested, then in the pups contract with the untested sire, you need to mention that you are responsible for untested health defects that may present in the pups. Or state clearly that the new oeners are aware of the implications of buying a pup from an untested father.

Personally, if an accidental instance like the second occured then I'd abort the whole litter to prevent more unhealthy dogs been brought in to the world. And breed again next year, being more careful to ensure another dog didn't get to her during her season.


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## JJAK (May 28, 2010)

Tanya1989 said:


> If this hapens to a KC reg bitch it is paramount for DNAing each pup to identifying the sire. Can be very expensive if you have a big litter. 10 puppies could cost up to £1500+ especially if the sires haven't already been profiled. Its your job to pay for the sire testing as well, as you chose to mate to 2 dogs, or your responsibility if you allowed 2 dogs to get to her.
> 
> For unregistered dogs its not really important unless one was unhealth tested, then in the pups contract with the untested sire, you need to mention that you are responsible for untested health defects that may present in the pups. Or state clearly that the new oeners are aware of the implications of buying a pup from an untested father.
> 
> Personally, if an accidental instance like the second occured then I'd abort the whole litter to prevent more unhealthy dogs been brought in to the world. And breed again next year, being more careful to ensure another dog didn't get to her during her season.


I have spoke to the owner and advised her on this.
My dog has been heath tested and is also all up to date with vaccinations, worming etc
what annoyed me the most was that she didnt tell me half the information until after her dog had been round twice!


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

There are always some like this. Providing that she didn't tell you until after the deed then you are in no way at fault and she must pay for all DNA testing if she has pups, unless she chooses to sell the pups on to new owners explicitly writing in the contract there is a chance that the parents of this pup has not been health tested. Most buyers walk away and she'd probably struggle to sell the pups on. Most have to say they will pay for any INHERITED CONDITIONS THAT COULD HAVE BEEN PREVENTED BY HEALTH TESTING THE PARENTS,(then the list of the tests that should have been done, but weren't). In JRT I think its Lens Luxation, patellas, DCM and Von Willebrands. So there are quite a few problems, that she maybe responsible for by breeding to an untested stud. 

This is the importance of DNA testing... Its basically to cover her back as she is guaranteeing that the sire and dam are who they were intended to be as they are the fully tested ones. Not the untested sire.


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