# How often is your dog off-leash



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

And do you think it matters?

Just something I muse about from time to time. Had a couple of friends bring it up recently who feel really strongly about how important off-leash time is.

I've noticed a big emphasis with online trainers (not necessarily good trainers but a certain cadre of 'popular' trainers) that they make a really big deal about leash manners but not so much emphasis on off-leash skills.

To me, all those skills that make a dog safe off-leash - attention, check-ins, responsiveness... All those transfer beautifully to a dog being much more mannerly on-leash.

Just some Sunday musings while Penny chomps on her turtle shell.


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

Personally, I have a bit of an ethical issue with dogs being confined to a lead for their whole lives. It's not an opinion everyone agrees with and that's absolutely fine. I'm not out to change minds. But I'd rather pull out all the stops and explore every avenue to get a dog bomb proof off lead and able to explore, mooch, run, zoom, sniff and really be a dog. For me, being able to get off lead is a vital part of responsible dog ownership.

With that said, too many people have dogs off lead that really shouldn't be because they dont have a reliable enough recall and they simply wont put the effort in or reach put for help. So it's not a simple matter for sure but for me _personally_ it should always be the aim. All the training and manners and tricks in the world is no good if my dogs can't also be dogs.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

All my dogs have been off lead in safe areas whenever they could be. One didn’t have a good recall and did spend periods of time on lead until I felt she could be trusted off lead again. Another all though had a good recall wasn’t good with other dogs and strangers so was put on the lead more then all the others I’ve had. I do insist on a good recall (well apart from the one who just wouldn’t🙄)
I think it does a dog the world of good to have some off lead do what it wants time, luckily private fields to rent help those with less then perfect recall or other issues.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Never, unless we're in an enclosed field/woods (once a week).
Whisp has a very high prey drive and I don't trust her with unknown dogs.

I use an 8 meter flexi lead so she can trot to and fro and she's perfectly happy with that. 
And in the enclosed places she can run and do what she likes.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I too feel strongly that dogs need to have off lead time. I have never had a dog on lead if it is somewhere suitable to be off - which is everywhere except on the road or, with Toffee, in dense woods, somewhere full of rabbits or a very busy people and dog area. She is the only dog I have had to restrict and keep on the lead but she is off 90 percent of the time on walks. I would say most dogs round here are off lead and most have very good manners and excellent recalls. There are a few who are always on the lead or get taken to the beach to be let off.


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

Rufus is off lead mostly if the area is suitable. But only because we trust his recall. If we didn't we would have him on a longline. I think longlines offer most of the freedom that being off lead does, but with that added safety net.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Interesting topic. Sox is off a fair bit he mooches, Lily was always off. Loki I just haven’t cracked it so he stays on a long line. However I spend a fortune on secure fields and woodlands some are quite big. This one we visit is like a walk in a meadow. I won’t give up on recall but I just can’t trust him. I’d rather a dog on a long line than a dead dog.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Katalyst said:


> Personally, I have a bit of an ethical issue with dogs being confined to a lead for their whole lives.


Same.... And you have sighthounds 
It's hard though because I know how lucky I am that I have a safe place for my dogs to practice being off leash literally right outside my front door, and I know it's a lot harder for some dog owners to have those opportunities. But like you, I just don't see it being fair on a dog to never get to practice natural behaviors - off leash.

We were off camping recently and the entire time I was there (about 2 days) none of the 3 dogs were ever leashed (2 terriers and a sighthound). I did carry a leash in my pocket when we were hiking, but never used it. When we were just sat about the campsite the dogs would mooch about but never go very far. I imagine it would have been a much less enjoyable experience for both of us if we had to tie dogs or leash dogs.

Of course the other side is dogs who really shouldn't be off leash being allowed off leash and getting themselves into trouble. I don't know if you can see on the photo, but the site were were at is a bear sanctuary - not that they keep bears there, but that the landowners do certain maintenance on the land that makes it more friendly to bears and bear habitat. And it was very remote too so a dog could quickly get lost and never be found.

Problem is, dogs learn to be off leash and be safe off leash by - being off leash.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Mine are rarely on lead - just to get to the place I can let them off, when walking directly from home, which is about 400 yds.

Yesterday, I made the effort to take Nell into town to practice street lead walking and controlled greetings, as she has her silver good citizen test in a few weeks and the dog has to stop and sit at kerbs during the test; not something I normally enforce.

Usually walking is after work when we're in the van, so I drive to where I can just let them go. Often (usually) don't even take leads with me.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Do you have private hire in the US @O2.0 they are quite popular here. You can practice recall. Obviously it’s not completely the same but it helps.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> Same.... And you have sighthounds
> It's hard though because I know how lucky I am that I have a safe place for my dogs to practice being off leash literally right outside my front door, and I know it's a lot harder for some dog owners to have those opportunities. But like you, I just don't see it being fair on a dog to never get to practice natural behaviors - off leash.
> 
> We were off camping recently and the entire time I was there (about 2 days) none of the 3 dogs were ever leashed (2 terriers and a sighthound). I did carry a leash in my pocket when we were hiking, but never used it. When we were just sat about the campsite the dogs would mooch about but never go very far. I imagine it would have been a much less enjoyable experience for both of us if we had to tie dogs or leash dogs.
> ...


Would you count a secure field off lead time ? Or is that too controlled ?


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## PawsOnMe (Nov 1, 2012)

Mine are off wherever it's safe to be off, 90% of their time on walks are offlead and they're only really put on around other dogs, livestock, and on pavements/roads.

I worked hard on their recalls, especially on Izzy's since she used to lose her head looking for things to chase so I'm happy we're at this stage where we can enjoy the results all that training has brought. It would always be my goal with future dogs to try to work to this stage too.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> Do you have private hire in the US @O2.0 they are quite popular here. You can practice recall. Obviously it’s not completely the same but it helps.


I'm sure we do, I've just never looked for one. Public places where dogs are allowed off leash here in the US are few and far between unfortunately. Lots of people rely on dog parks but most to me seem like doggy hell on earth, and I prefer off the beaten path anyway.
Just did a quick google and there seem to be equal amounts that are fenced and unfenced.



Beth78 said:


> Would you count a secure field off lead time ? Or is that too controlled ?


I think it depends on the dog, the field, and other factors like what other outings the dog gets.
If your dog goes to the same half acre field every day it would probably begin to be no different than a back-yard from the dog's POV. A dog like Penny, she really enjoys new sights, new smells and exploring new places. But as above, most places she had to be leashed. So I fulfill her need for newness on a long line, and then we have our usual places where she can be loose.

Example: She might start the morning at XC practice, on the track during warm-ups and cool down she is loose harassing kids. While they're running, she's either in the bike on the roads or dragging a line on the trails off the road. But on the trails she also has to keep up with the bike so there's not a lot of room for mooching sniffing, she's on the move, so I might take her to the stream at home and let her check out all the sniffs with no agenda or go to a state park and let her direct the walk instead of having to keep up with me.

As an aside, I think letting her be loose around the kids has made a massive difference as far as her confidence with people goes because she gets to choose whether she wants to interact or not and if she decides someone is scary she can 'escape' easily, because she's loose.



PawsOnMe said:


> I worked hard on their recalls, especially on Izzy's since she used to lose her head looking for things to chase so I'm happy we're at this stage where we can enjoy the results all that training has brought. It would always be my goal with future dogs to try to work to this stage too.


That's a good point and reminder. Off leash just takes time. Most dogs, especially breeds not known for being particularly biddable, can take years to get to that point where you're totally confident that they'll listen. If your 2 year old dog blows you off in tough distractions, it doesn't mean he won't ever be safe. It's actually more normal than not, and it simply means you have more work to do and the dog has more growing up to do. It's usually at least a year before I get a solid recall on any new dogs we get. Penny is coming up on 2 years with us, and it's just this summer that I'm feeling confident that she will recall off the really tough distractions.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Our dogs have always been off lead for some of the time on more or less every walk. We are lucky here that we live on the edge of green belt land and have loads of wide open spaces where we can let dogs off safely. 

They enjoy being off the lead and I enjoy walking them off the lead. It matters to me that they are off lead. However I have used a long line at certain times.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Beth78 said:


> Would you count a secure field off lead time ? Or is that too controlled ?


I wouldn’t say it’s too controlled at all and I don’t suppose the dog thinks so either.


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## kschinchillas (7 mo ago)

To me, one of the pleasures of owning dogs is to watch them chasing each other, following scents and just being dogs. I feel sorry for the dogs that are straining their collar/harness at the end of a flexi lead. 

There are several breeds that I like the look of but I wouldn't own as they are unable to go off lead unless they are in a secure area. This includes most hounds and a few of the Spitz breeds.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> I'm sure we do, I've just never looked for one. Public places where dogs are allowed off leash here in the US are few and far between unfortunately. Lots of people rely on dog parks but most to me seem like doggy hell on earth, and I prefer off the beaten path anyway.
> Just did a quick google and there seem to be equal amounts that are fenced and unfenced.
> 
> 
> ...


Ok so ours you have to yourself not other dogs. I and I think @Beth78 have several nearby one is huge I think 9 acres. They are all completely secure. I take the boys to a choice of 5 and he obviously gets normal walks on the long line. It’s not the same as off leash all the time but better safe than sorry.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> I think it depends on the dog, the field, and other factors like what other outings the dog gets.
> If your dog goes to the same half acre field every day it would probably begin to be no different than a back-yard from the dog's POV.


good points but as most of the gardens here are very small, my back yard is 35 foot by 25 foot and I think half an acre would be nice for dogs who like to run and also even though its the same space , the smells change form different animals that migt visit , other dogs , foxes and rabbits maybe.

It lets dogs be dogs .


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

However , it does depend on how much control the owner has .


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## PawsOnMe (Nov 1, 2012)

O2.0 said:


> That's a good point and reminder. Off leash just takes time. Most dogs, especially breeds not known for being particularly biddable, can take years to get to that point where you're totally confident that they'll listen. If your 2 year old dog blows you off in tough distractions, it doesn't mean he won't ever be safe. It's actually more normal than not, and it simply means you have more work to do and the dog has more growing up to do. It's usually at least a year before I get a solid recall on any new dogs we get. Penny is coming up on 2 years with us, and it's just this summer that I'm feeling confident that she will recall off the really tough distractions.


Oh yeah it definitely takes time and consistency. I started on day 1 of Izzy being home to start recall training and even now she's nearly 8 we still work on it. 

What made the biggest difference for us was working with her prey drive, giving her permission to chase the animal in safe situations, giving her something else to chase (rolling treats) when recalling off a live chase, and just making it more team work rather than us working against her wants and always being the party pooper 😅


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

I have had whisp for 5 years now. I have and continue to work very hard on her training and recall. But I've also seen her blow off too many recalls for it to be safe for her to be off lead.

The secure fields/woods I take her to are many acres of many terrains so it's definitely good enrichment and she can run at full speed without me having to worry about her getting hit by a car or getting lost. We also use the fields to meet up with dogs she knows so she can run around and play for an hour.
I don't think that's unethical.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Beth78 said:


> I have had whisp for 5 years now. I have and continue to work very hard on her training and recall. But I've also seen her blow off too many recalls for it to be safe for her to be off lead.
> 
> The secure fields/woods I take her to are many acres of many terrains so it's definitely good enrichment and she can run at full speed without me having to worry about her getting hit by a car or getting lost. We also use the fields to meet up with dogs she knows so she can run around and play for an hour.
> I don't think that's unethical.


That's sounds ideal . many built up places have few parks or very small ones so I expect whisp gets more off lead time than many other dogs.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

PawsOnMe said:


> What made the biggest difference for us was working with her prey drive, giving her permission to chase the animal in safe situations, giving her something else to chase (rolling treats) when recalling off a live chase, and just making it more team work rather than us working against her wants and always being the party pooper 😅


Yes! I love all of this, especially the not being a party pooper 
For sure the more time you spend telling your dog not to sniff, not to chase, not to explore, the more they will tune you out. 
I actively encourage Penny to dig and explore and even chase - particularly squirrels since they go up and not far away, and that has turned in to a dog who wants to come tell me about what she just chased 
And then when I do ask her to come (like when she's about to chase a deer) she does.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Beth78 said:


> I don't think that's unethical.


LOL I'm pretty sure @Katalyst said "confided to a leash their whole lives" not "gets to run around in a 9 acre secure field. There's a big difference there!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Coming back to this we are members of a pet forum so obviously mostly do anything to make our dogs happy. I feel pretty guilty Loki can’t go off. However there are so many dogs who never get walked or maybe get the same walk around the block everyday. Surely those on long line but exploring are better off ?

My last village we had so many walks but most of my neighbours stuck to the circular concrete with a field in the middle. They were off lead but it was the same walk. Where as Loki would run miles with different routes,different sniffs.

So yes off lead is important but I know a lot of us who can’t try to give different experiences.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> LOL I'm pretty sure @Katalyst said "confided to a leash their whole lives" not "gets to run around in a 9 acre secure field. There's a big difference there!


Sorry my bad 😕


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Boxer123 said:


> Coming back to this we are members of a pet forum so obviously mostly do anything to make our dogs happy. I feel pretty guilty Loki can’t go off. However there are so many dogs who never get walked or maybe get the same walk around the block everyday. Surely those on long line but exploring are better off ?
> 
> My last village we had so many walks but most of my neighbours stuck to the circular concrete with a field in the middle. They were off lead but it was the same walk. Where as Loki would run miles with different routes,different sniffs.
> 
> So yes off lead is important but I know a lot of us who can’t try to give different experiences.


I feel guilty that Whisp can't be off lead too.


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## 1507601 (Jun 26, 2020)

Honestly, Zhia currently doesn't have any time off leash on walks. Private fields are no use to us, as she gets travel sick. I am completely stumped with teaching her recall and just at the stage of rewarding check ins right now... I'm at a loss as she gets very intensely distracted by smells and just isn't bothered about anything I could offer (maybe except McDonald's......).
However, I generally let her lead walks. I'll go under trees etc to allow her to go look at what she wants. She had off leash time in a tennis court a while ago and didn't seem to even notice she wasn't on a lead anymore. So I think she's doing alright, but I'll continue to work on getting some form of recall 🙄
It doesn't really help that she ran off twice during those first few weeks here. It's hard to know, would she still want to run off, given the chance?


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Beth78 said:


> I feel guilty that Whisp can't be off lead too.


I hope with Loki one day but he’s an unpredictable little bugger. 90% of the time he checks in 10% he does not. He does explore with his long line. I don’t think he has it to bad.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Beth78 said:


> I feel guilty that Whisp can't be off lead too.


But if you and @Boxer123 routinely let the dogs off in private fields what do you feel guilty for? Obviously the dog is getting off-leash time.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> But if you and @Boxer123 routinely let the dogs off in private fields what do you feel guilty for? Obviously the dog is getting off-leash time.


I think partly because I have a lot of countryside he’d have a ball of his recall was solid. I feel like a failure. Loki is so much fun we have such a good bond but I can’t crack this. Lily and Sox were/are pretty solid. Lily was never on lead. I didn’t even train them just let them off and called them back. I also think part of his reactivity is due to being on lead.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Lucy2020 said:


> It doesn't really help that she ran off twice during those first few weeks here. It's hard to know, would she still want to run off, given the chance?


I think that's where a long line does help because it gives the dog the 'feel' of being off leash, especially if you let them drag it, with added safety of knowing that if they were to run off, you still have that security of the line. 

I know the feeling, Penny's default behavior was to run and hide at any spook. I still remember the first time she spooked and then looked for me, it was such a great feeling because I knew I could build on that. 
BTW Penny was also a wreck in the car and spent about 6 months shaking like a leaf any time I put her in the car. We spent months just going in the car to a local state park about 10 minutes away, she'd blow off the stress on the walk and then back home. 
Now she only gets worried if the road is particularly loud with rough patches. Oh and she doesn't like the sound of rain on the roof in the car, but otherwise she's fine.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> But if you and @Boxer123 routinely let the dogs off in private fields what do you feel guilty for? Obviously the dog is getting off-leash time.


Because I've been told more than twice on our walks in the woods that I should let my dog off the lead so she can be a dog. And I feel that I have worked so hard on her training that she should be off lead in nature like other dogs are.
It takes its toll and wears me down that she can't be like "other" dogs.

Let's just say its a soft spot.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> I also think part of his reactivity is due to being on lead.


Penny is 1000 times better off leash with both people and dogs. With dogs she just doesn't know how to 'dog' with a leash attached, though she's definitely getting there. 



Beth78 said:


> And I feel that I have worked so hard on her training that she should be off lead in nature like other dogs are.


Oh that's a dangerous path to go down - to compare where your dog "should" be compared to others  
Dogs (and kids) get there when they get there. I remember my pediatrician said something to me about one of my kids when I was worried about milestones, she said "If this kid weren't a twin you wouldn't even be asking me this" And she was right. 
I've had dogs who learned a recall without me even training it. I had a dog who refused food from me for a year before one day it just clicked and he started taking food like it has never been an issue. My great dane bitch too for EVER to potty train. I've had other puppies who I swear I never did anything to potty train and they just got it. 
It takes as long as it takes  The only failure is not trying.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Beth78 said:


> Because I've been told more than twice on our walks in the woods that I should let my dog off the lead so she can be a dog. And I feel that I have worked so hard on her training that she should be off lead in nature like other dogs are.
> It takes its toll and wears me down that she can't be like "other" dogs.
> 
> Let's just say its a soft spot.


I think too that it seems like it’s implied by some that dogs _could_ be safe off lead in the open if their owners worked harder on recall and training.

When members have put in a lot of effort and continue to do so yet their dogs are still not safe off lead in the open, it’s inevitable they might feel judged. Exactly, what happened last time this subject was discussed on the forum.

Personally, I couldn’t have cared less what other owners thought or said about Jack being on a lead.

I wanted to give a rescue dog a safe and happy home and I succeeded in that with Jack for the 9 years I had him … good enough in my book.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

I've had


Lurcherlad said:


> I think too that it seems like it’s implied by some that dogs _could_ be safe off lead in the open if their owners worked harder on recall and training.
> 
> When members have put in a lot of effort and continue to do so yet their dogs are still not safe off lead in the open, it’s inevitable they might feel judged. Exactly, what happened last time this subject was discussed on the forum.
> 
> ...


Thanks, that makes sense, it is a touchy subject and your right I do feel judged.
I do try to shrug it off but it does get to me.

I've had 2 dogs that were great off lead and I do want that with Whisp but she's a tough nut to crack.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

I am so lucky with Timber, and I don’t take it for granted. We did start him engaging with me from the day he came home, although I didn’t think of it like that at the time; it was just ‘playing with the puppy’. But he has always been close, he doesn’t go far. I’d say that 85% of the time, he is off lead. Lead is for roads with traffic, when we see another dog that’s on lead (I’ll shout ahead to ask if they want T on lead too), livestock or some other sort of risk.

We have loads of countryside, forest tracks, beaches etc here so it’s a good environment for a dog.


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## 1507601 (Jun 26, 2020)

O2.0 said:


> I think that's where a long line does help because it gives the dog the 'feel' of being off leash, especially if you let them drag it, with added safety of knowing that if they were to run off, you still have that security of the line.
> 
> I know the feeling, Penny's default behavior was to run and hide at any spook. I still remember the first time she spooked and then looked for me, it was such a great feeling because I knew I could build on that.
> BTW Penny was also a wreck in the car and spent about 6 months shaking like a leaf any time I put her in the car. We spent months just going in the car to a local state park about 10 minutes away, she'd blow off the stress on the walk and then back home.
> Now she only gets worried if the road is particularly loud with rough patches. Oh and she doesn't like the sound of rain on the roof in the car, but otherwise she's fine.


When we have our own car I am hoping to just take her for five minutes every day or something, and build it up. With Zhia, though, it does appear to be physical. She actually happily gets in the car (despite the physical difficulty) and gets excited about it, knows that we're probably going somewhere fun. She just throws up so much! We tried on an empty stomach and she was still sick, it's just ridiculous.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Lurcherlad said:


> I think too that it seems like it’s implied by some that dogs _could_ be safe off lead in the open if their owners worked harder on recall and training.
> 
> When members have put in a lot of effort and continue to do so yet their dogs are still not safe off lead in the open, it’s inevitable they might feel judged. Exactly, what happened last time this subject was discussed on the forum.
> 
> ...


Ive had comments from other walkers as well. ‘Just let him off’
‘Oh can’t he go off lead poor boy?’
‘Let him off down the river he’ll hit a gate eventually’ 


Inevitably because you love and care about your dog you feel bad. Jack was a much pampered pooch I don’t think he minded at all


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

My previous 3 dogs were off lead the vast majority of the time because they didn't bother anybody, had fab recall and could be trusted as much as any dog can be.

Ritter is mainly on lead, and is only off if nobody is around. He does do lots of check ins and will mostly recall well but I dont have the necessary control yet and he's far too interested in his environment and everything going on in it to be trusted to respond to me when I need him to.

I dont necessarily agree that off lead manners leads to on lead manners.
Flynn in particular was terrible on a lead and pulled like a train, Jed would suddenly pull me to the side to sniff something or scent mark.


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

My old dog 80% of the time.
Tilly barely ever. When I got her she just needed some refreshing with recall but was good quickly.
She's fairly deaf now and is a bit away with the fairies so I don't unless we're in an empty field she knows as she'll stick to the path. 
My compromise is walks are hers. I go at her slow pace and follow what she wants to sniff and she wants to sniff a lot of things! Add in her lower tolerance for warm weather so I don't take her as far I think its even more important that I give her those opportunities.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Leanne77 said:


> I dont necessarily agree that off lead manners leads to on lead manners.


Not that off leash manners lead to on lead manners. 
The _skills_ your dog needs to be safe off-leash transfer well to on-leash skills. 

That line of thinking came about after seeing yet another video of a trainer flouting their skills that basically boiled down to crank and yank the dog until they plod next to you like a robot. These same trainers never seem to be able to show their skill in teaching a dog to be off leash. I got to thinking that their approach is bass ackwards. They're not teaching the dog to enjoy being with the handler and interacting with the handler and wanting to do stuff with the handler, instead they're a source of stress and annoyance, so as soon as the leash comes off the dog is happy to tune the handler out.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Arny said:


> Tilly barely ever. When I got her she just needed some refreshing with recall but was good quickly.
> She's fairly deaf now and is a bit away with the fairies so I don't unless we're in an empty field she knows as she'll stick to the path.
> My compromise is walks are hers. I go at her slow pace and follow what she wants to sniff and she wants to sniff a lot of things! Add in her lower tolerance for warm weather so I don't take her as far I think its even more important that I give her those opportunities.


I actually think it's lovely to read how much we accommodate our dogs and do things like hire private fields and like you let the dog direct the walk. 
PF dogs are very lucky that's for sure. 
Too many dogs don't get that type of care and attention.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

As with most things, I think it depends. IMO I'd rather a dog be on a lead and get taken to new places and explore new things every day or so than go to the same park every day and be let to run around by themselves as the owner natters or stares at their phone 🤷‍♀️
I do think being allowed to really run and stretch their legs is of benefit both mentally and physically, but if your dog isn't safe off lead for whatever reason, then mixing it up with both lead walking and secure fields is great. As already mentioned that's not like when dogs get dragged round the block twice a day. 
I've had dogs who are pretty bombproof off lead, and I will say those walks are much more relaxed than the on lead ones, even with a line it just isn't the same as there's always a part of you worried or looking out for something.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Ava is currently pretty much always on lead because I do not have the control yet to let her off. I am working on it, but she obviously has a history of being allowed to run riot and she is very aware of her environment. 
But, we are making slow progress and there are places where I can let her off and play games with her which keep her engaged and less likely to run off. The gundog work we are doing definitely helps but I think she will always be a dog who needs a ‘job’ to do otherwise she will go self-employed. 


O2.0 said:


> I think that's where a long line does help because it gives the dog the 'feel' of being off leash, especially if you let them drag it, with added safety of knowing that if they were to run off, you still have that security of the line.


Although I use a long line with Ava I always have to be holding it. If I let it drag behind her and she decides to go there is no way I would have time to grab the end of the lead!



O2.0 said:


> Oh that's a dangerous path to go down - to compare where your dog "should" be compared to others


Going back to the good training advice - comparison is the thief of joy!

I do think I will get to a point where Ava can go off lead (at least in some places) but I do get sick of the local ‘experts’ who tell me that she will never learn to come back if I don’t let her off lead (true, but I would rather get her training to a point where I am at least reasonable confident that she won’t disappear over the horizon or go and pester any dog in the vicinity)…


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> Not that off leash manners lead to on lead manners.
> The _skills_ your dog needs to be safe off-leash transfer well to on-leash skills.
> 
> That line of thinking came about after seeing yet another video of a trainer flouting their skills that basically boiled down to crank and yank the dog until they plod next to you like a robot. These same trainers never seem to be able to show their skill in teaching a dog to be off leash. I got to thinking that their approach is bass ackwards. They're not teaching the dog to enjoy being with the handler and interacting with the handler and wanting to do stuff with the handler, instead they're a source of stress and annoyance, so as soon as the leash comes off the dog is happy to tune the handler out.


Not quite sure where I go wrong then as I find it easier to teach an off lead recall than I do LLW. Maybe it's just not that important to me that a dog walks nicely.
Attention on me off the lead is great, on the lead their desire to get somewhere overrides any interest in me.

I do hire a secure field for Ritter quite often so that he can really stretch his legs and I feel much safer letting him off on an empty football field than I do more rural walks because my views are better and the wildlife is minimal.
He moves at such a lightning pace and is willing to go further and out of sight more than I've been used to so at the moment he worries me whilst I'm getting used to his ways. The others were bombproof in terms of things like horseriders, cyclists, dogs, people, livestock etc so I was as sure as I could be that they wouldn't approach anything, instead choosing to come back to me. Ritter would be off like a shot so I darent take that risk yet.


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

Never.
(a) We have no off lead areas where we live, I've looked for private hire fields and we don't even have any of those as far as I can tell. 
(b) Recall is great when we are on our own, but another human appears and he is off.
I am working on this and he is improving, so maybe one day, but for now his safety is my priority, I don't think that's unethical?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

My dogs are rarely on a lead & their LLW is rubbish! I hate teaching it & know I should but don't. Archer does everything at 100mph so isn't great on lead. He walks reasonably ok now he's 8 but I still have to remind him if he pulls. Kato naturally walked well on a lead so nothing to do with my teaching & I have yet to teach Marnie .

I have visions of having to have them all on lead together & it makes me cringe as it would be chaos!!

Off lead they are great tho, all have good recalls (although Marnie is only 7mths so still a work in progress) & I don;t look so incompetent   

I do understand when others talk of guilt regarding offlead time. I had this with Roxy when she was on a long line initially for quite a while. It did take a lot of work (& I did stop feeling so guilty as she had a reat life still) & eventually she was offllead nearly all the time .... & I think as she got older she couldn't be bothered to chase the local wildlife as much


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Leanne77 said:


> Maybe it's just not that important to me that a dog walks nicely.


Bingo!  
I keep getting "sponsored" links for crank and yank idiot trainers on instagram and FB and it's always videos of a dog plodding next to the handler with no joy or enthusiasm. Or if there is what appears to be enthusiasm it's just massive appeasement and anxiety keeping an eye on the weirdo who keeps jerking the leash and changing direction. These same people couldn't show an impressive recall video if their lives depended on it. 

The flip side is, if you work on your dog's attentiveness, desire to work with you, and your value as a handler - all the stuff they lack and why they can't get a decent recall, it's way easier to teach a nice LLW or at least a quick 'hey remember me?' when they're on leash and being stupid.


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

The boy is off lead every day and most of the time - we walk on lead to whichever field/park/woodland we are going to, and then he’s offlead. He hurt himself back in May (quite badly - I thought we would lose him) which meant onlead for 10 days. We would get to the park/field and he would look at me, waiting for me to take his lead off. He was sad when I didn’t - it was a tough time!

One dog we meet quite often and have been seeing since he was a puppy, is a beautiful terrier. He is on a retractable lead all the time as the owner is just not confident to let him off, which is fair enough as he accepts a lot more work needs to be done for any sort of recall or checking-in. The dog completely ignores the owner. But you can see the dog getting more and more frustrated. Indeed, he has nipped one of the other dogs we regularly see at the field, and I’m sure it was out of frustration that he couldn’t run freely like the other dogs, or felt uncomfortable and had no flight option, or a bit of both.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sarah H said:


> As with most things, I think it depends. IMO I'd rather a dog be on a lead and get taken to new places and explore new things every day or so than go to the same park every day and be let to run around by themselves as the owner natters or stares at their phone 🤷‍♀️


Definitely this! When I take my lot over to the local park for training sessions there are always dogs over there. I am amazed at how little interaction is there is between dog & owner. It's sad in some ways as I really feel they are missing out. Too many people on their bloody phones whilst their dog is just left to get on with it until the owner decides it's time to go home. Whilst I agree that letting dogs do their own thing & just sniff about is great & they need time to just be dogs but to have no interaction, no playing, etc is just so weird for me.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Leanne77 said:


> He moves at such a lightning pace and is willing to go further and out of sight more than I've been used to so at the moment he worries me whilst I'm getting used to his ways. The others were bombproof in terms of things like horseriders, cyclists, dogs, people, livestock etc so I was as sure as I could be that they wouldn't approach anything, instead choosing to come back to me. Ritter would be off like a shot so I darent take that risk yet.


I am exactly the same with Ava - she would be off like a shot and so I dare not risk it at the moment. For now she has lots of time on a long line being allowed to explore (albeit a limited area) while I work on her engagement training.
Even if she is only ever allowed off lead in certain places I will still do my best to make sure she has as good a life as possible with interesting walks and time to 'be a dog' where appropriate.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

ForestWomble said:


> I don't think that's unethical?


Me neither...its not the end of the world if a dog doesnt get off lead exercise if they are still getting the exercise! Not every dog is safe and not every environment is safe either. 

I have no secure fields near me and every park has open access onto busy roads so you'd have to be crazy to walk a dog with a dodgy recall off lead there! As it stands we now mostly do lead walks, although we did do more off lead walks a few years ago. The girls are both oldies now and dont really want to be doing huge, long walks (Hannah will cause herself pain if she does too much) so we tend to just do gentle lead walks.
Alfie is DA/FA and has never been walked off lead, its just not worth the risk as he would run off to try and bite another dog. He doesnt even really get new places or long line walks as new places just make him really nervous and so do long lines (he will just walk plastered next to my leg on a long line and trip me up!).

Im sure there are some dogs that really need to be able to run and explore and some breeds more then others but I dont think its a deal breaker.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

I'm 50/50 with my two. They're luckier than most in that they have their very own secure field which weather permitting they spend most of their time in. And facing onto the village green and main road there's always plenty of activity to keep them amused. I think if they were human they'd be the village gossips 😀 I also spend a lot of time outside with them.

I enjoy walking with them on leash and we've done a lot of LL training particularly in busy city areas. I prefer to use a lead that's at least 2 metres in length - the ones I use most often are 2.4 metres long which for town walking gives them a certain amount of freedom whilst still being under control. Luckily neither of them are pullers, they're too busy exploring all the delightful smells you can only find on a busy street.

Georgina, bless her I could happily let her be off leash on our walks near home. She'd disappear for 10 minutes or so before running back to me. I could almost time her to the second. The Schnauzer boys have good recall but it all depends what's happening in the village whether they're off leash or on long lines, particularly as Gwylim gets scared quite easily.. 

At the moment there are ginormous harvesters working in the fields behind us which scare the bejesus out of me. I'm very conscious that if one of the boys was some distance away from me and freaked out and ran off, I'd never be able to move fast enough to catch him, so at the moment I'd rather keep them both on 10 metre long lines.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Katalyst said:


> Personally, I have a bit of an ethical issue with dogs being confined to a lead for their whole lives.


I don't think it's as black-and-white as that, and I think it very much depends on the circumstances. Some people on my street have a husky who has never been off lead, but to compensate he is walked on a long line and his owners walk miles with him, taking him to nice places to walk. Surely that is better than the dog who is allowed off lead to plod around the block twice a day?


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> And do you think it matters?
> 
> Just something I muse about from time to time. Had a couple of friends bring it up recently who feel really strongly about how important off-leash time is.
> 
> ...


Hmm depends a bit on breed and environment. Mine are rarely on the lead - queuing at shows and vet trips and that's about it. I do occasionally walk them round the local lanes on the lead just to remind them of their manners. Being collies they would go stir crazy if they couldn't run but then I'm lucky that I have the facilities.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

There used to be a lady with an English setter who was never off the lead unless a friend let her run him in her field but even then she was worried he would one day escape. He was always walked on a short lead even in the fields. She walked miles with him in order to give him the walks he needed, but always on a short lead.
One day he escaped from the garden when the hunt was about and he went charging off with the hounds. She actually got him back quite quickly, but it made her even worse about letting him off lead in the friends field and as far as I’m aware he didn’t go there again.
She told me that she just didn’t have the confidence to let him off the lead in case he never came back and was killed somewhere, not even on a flexi lead in case she dropped it. When he died she has never got another dog.
I had an Irish setter who I trained hard with and he had a fantastic recall and was off lead on most walks, he did need on awful lot of work though, but once he got it he didn’t forget.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Dimwit said:


> Surely that is better than the dog who is allowed off lead to plod around the block twice a day?


I often see dogs walked off lead round my way....right next to busy roads! Id be much happier if they were all on lead!!LOL
I agree that it isnt black and white. No dog has a perfect recall. One park we used to go to off lead became lead only after Adam ('perfect recall' from people/other dogs/cats/etc) ran after a squirrel...right out of the park and onto a busy main road! 😲 

I think its like having an indoor cat TBH. You have to look at their enrichment in their daily lives and make sure you are meeting their needs. Doesnt automatically mean that your cat needs to go outside or your dog needs to be off leash.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I think we tend to argue in extremes. Either using on-lead examples where the dog gets no enrichment or exercise or off-lead examples that are simply irresponsible like off-leash near a road. The reality of course is much more complex. 
As demonstrated by so many owners on here if you have a dog with an iffy recall there's always long lines, and secure fields, and if you have a bomb proof recall it still doesn't mean let the dog loose around livestock or near roads. 



catz4m8z said:


> its not the end of the world if a dog doesnt get off lead exercise if they are still getting the exercise!


For Penny it's not about the exercise. I can exercise her easily running next to the bike - on leash. For her it's about expressing her natural drives. She is all terrier and she gets a lot out of "over under through" fallen trees and zig-zagging about that even a long-line would restrict. 


catz4m8z said:


> Im sure there are some dogs that really need to be able to run and explore and some breeds more then others but I dont think its a deal breaker.


Of course there are dogs who never go off leash and are happy, there are dogs who can't be off leash and their owners bend over backwards to make sure they get fulfillment and enrichment through the use of secure fields and long lines, but I definitely think that there are some dogs for whom it is unfair for them to never get off-leash time. 
Penny is a dog who vastly benefits from off-leash time. She gets plenty of leashed outings too and really enjoys those (now). She likes in-town walks for the novelty of sights and sounds but then she definitely needs the off-leash time to blow off the stress of an in-town outing. I feel like she would be a different dog as far as being able to handle stress and recover from it if it weren't for the opportunities she has to fulfill those innate drives.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

One of the dog training books on my bookshelf is hunting together, bout training dogs with a prey drive. I found it in the charity shop. Maybe I'll dip into that when I've finished my current one.


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

Dimwit said:


> I don't think it's as black-and-white as that, and I think it very much depends on the circumstances. Some people on my street have a husky who has never been off lead, but to compensate he is walked on a long line and his owners walk miles with him, taking him to nice places to walk. Surely that is better than the dog who is allowed off lead to plod around the block twice a day?


As I said, I'm not out to impose my personal opinions on others as where I draw my ethical lines would be very different to others on here.
One of my dogs is a malinois x greyhound who when his first owners did let him off would bugger off for hours. He knows he can be gone forever if he wants to. I have put a year of extensive work building value in me, bite tugs (his favourite thing) and a ball into this dog but in certain circumstances, that all falls on its arse and his environment will still win. I will shortly be bringing in means to proof the hard work I've already put in and add an additional layer of communication. Recall is non negotiable for me
For me _very personally_ I will not restrain a dog on lead forever without exploring every single avenue available and I wont restrict myself to R+ only for this. I'm no yank and crank and I'm no compulsion based trainer. Everything I do is rooted in a reward based system. But I have had 100% success in getting "impossible" dogs bomb proof off lead using methods that would be beyond the line many on here would draw. As I say, it's down to where everyone draws their line. I'm comfortable with where mine is.

I cannot stress enough that I'd MUCH rather see a dog on a longline than being let off when it shouldn't be. But it is not impossible to get a prey or scent driven dog off lead.
I'm happy to discuss all of this at length if the mods are happy with it but I tend to stay clear of this discussion as im fairly sure it's against forum rules to discuss tool use.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Beth78 said:


> One of the dog training books on my bookshelf is hunting together, bout training dogs with a prey drive. I found it in the charity shop. Maybe I'll dip into that when I've finished my current one.


I have talked that book up endlessly on here  
I think the trifecta for prey driven dogs is "Hunting Together" by Simone Muller, "When Pigs Fly" by Jane Killion, and any of the "Control Unleashed" books by Leslie McDevitt. I use principles from all three to get the attention and responsiveness from Penny that I need. 
I think Susan Garrett does a lot of similar stuff with her recallers games and online course. I've never taken it, but I've read a lot of her stuff and watched the demos. The only thing with recallers is that she's all about controlling the environment and that's not always possible for things like wildlife popping out.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> I have talked that book up endlessly on here
> I think the trifecta for prey driven dogs is "Hunting Together" by Simone Muller, "When Pigs Fly" by Jane Killion, and any of the "Control Unleashed" books by Leslie McDevitt. I use principles from all three to get the attention and responsiveness from Penny that I need.
> I think Susan Garrett does a lot of similar stuff with her recallers games and online course. I've never taken it, but I've read a lot of her stuff and watched the demos. The only thing with recallers is that she's all about controlling the environment and that's not always possible for things like wildlife popping out.


I've read control unleashed.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Katalyst said:


> As I said, I'm not out to impose my personal opinions on others as where I draw my ethical lines would be very different to others on here.
> One of my dogs is a malinois x greyhound who when his first owners did let him off would bugger off for hours. He knows he can be gone forever if he wants to. I have put a year of extensive work building value in me, bite tugs (his favourite thing) and a ball into this dog but in certain circumstances, that all falls on its arse and his environment will still win. I will shortly be bringing in means to proof the hard work I've already put in and add an additional layer of communication. Recall is non negotiable for me
> For me _very personally_ I will not restrain a dog on lead forever without exploring every single avenue available and I wont restrict myself to R+ only for this. I'm no yank and crank and I'm no compulsion based trainer. Everything I do is rooted in a reward based system. But I have had 100% success in getting "impossible" dogs bomb proof off lead using methods that would be beyond the line many on here would draw. As I say, it's down to where everyone draws their line. I'm comfortable with where mine is.
> 
> ...


I am similar. With Kato (who is actually on lead only atm as he is recovering from a fractured leg) I use a Chameleon III collar with low level stim (again please delete mods if this is not allowed). Where I live there is ALOT of wildlife, bloody deer & hares leaping out all over the place. As well as not wanting a dog who chases, Kato has bilateral ED so chasing an animal could b*gger up his legs completely. I initially trained completely R+ or P- & this worked really well but Kato isn't as toy/food driven as my other dogs so I had to work extra hard. I don't want a dog who is on a long line all the time & neither is it possible (for me) to have him on a long line when my other dog was offlead on the same walk.

Despite him not failing a recall or chasing animals I made the decision to purchase the ecollar after a lot of discussions with trainers I respect & considerations. For me it is like having a long line attached but gives him more freedom, It has been fantastic for us, I use very low level stim & his recall has been spot on even when deer/hares have run out in front of us.

Atm I am having to work really hard at making his (short walks) interesting during his recovery & it is alot harder than him just being offlead. He can't even be on a too long line as he needs to walk slowly to ensure he is using his limbs/muscles correctly & not bounce or trot. He seems ok with this but I find it hard work & can't wait until he is well enough to be offlead again


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

Cleo38 said:


> I am similar. With Kato (who is actually on lead only atm as he is recovering from a fractured leg) I use a Chameleon III collar with low level stim (again please delete mods if this is not allowed). Where I live there is ALOT of wildlife, bloody deer & hares leaping out all over the place. As well as not wanting a dog who chases, Kato has bilateral ED so chasing an animal could b*gger up his legs completely. I initially trained completely R+ or P- & this worked really well but Kato isn't as toy/food driven as my other dogs so I had to work extra hard. I don't want a dog who is on a long line all the time & neither is it possible (for me) to have him on a long line when my other dog was offlead on the same walk.
> 
> Despite him not failing a recall or chasing animals I made the decision to purchase the ecollar after a lot of discussions with trainers I respect & considerations. For me it is like having a long line attached but gives him more freedom, It has been fantastic for us, I use very low level stim & his recall has been spot on even when deer/hares have run out in front of us.
> 
> Atm I am having to work really hard at making his (short walks) interesting during his recovery & it is alot harder than him just being offlead. He can't even be on a too long line as he needs to walk slowly to ensure he is using his limbs/muscles correctly & not bounce or trot. He seems ok with this but I find it hard work & can't wait until he is well enough to be offlead again


Most of my clients will never even know that I offer e-collar conditioning because it is never needed. In my experience, most of the people who come to me having "tried everything" have been fighting against their dogs drive or have never been shown how to make themselves relevent to the dog under distraction which is of course the foundation of all things awesome when it comes to off lead control. Or onlead for that matter. 
But for certain situations where long term, consistent, sensible and genuinely skilled training is not rectifying the problem, it's a subject I'll broach. 
You couldn't pay me any amount of money to put a cheap collar (or certain brands of expensive ones) on a dog or to cut corners and just correct into compliance. It takes weeks of gentle conditioning at extremely low levels paired with rewards under increasing distractions to build in the required behaviour and done right, a collar that has been used to whisper on something like level 3 out of 100 only need be used to shout at 12 or 15 out of 100 to gain compliance and understanding that recall is non-negotiable. 
Again - I am NOT promoting here. This is my personal line in the sand. I will not restrict a dog to a largely onlead lifestyle whilst this option is available. 

I feel extremely strongly that these tools should never be available off the shelf in shops and should only be used under the guidance of someone well versed in them. Over and out.


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

Samson is off lead i'd say about 50% of the time on walks nowadays. It depends where we're walking though, woodland is a big no no still with him. In the local park/meadows though he's fine to be off for the majority of the walk. I did a lot of longline work with him a few years ago and I think this combined with him generally slowing down more has helped him get a better recall . What really helped with him was not just treats but also using premack, he finds it very rewarding to be able to go sniff around rabbit holes, bushes etc. When he was younger I'd say he was onlead a lot more as tbh we didn't focus on recall as much as we should and so he would just bugger off a lot. Far better for him to be on lead/longline then . 

As for whether I find it important that a dog gets off lead time i'm personallly not really that fussed. It wouldn't be a deal breaker for me as i'm more than happy to put in the extra leg work for longer walks, make them more stimulating for the dog etc. Also i'd be happy to hire private fields so they could stretch their legs . Its great to see dogs having a good time off lead , but there are plenty of happy dogs who spend all/most of their time on lead too . I don't think its an either or situation like some people like to make out .


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Katalyst said:


> Most of my clients will never even know that I offer e-collar conditioning because it is never needed. In my experience, most of the people who come to me having "tried everything" have been fighting against their dogs drive or have never been shown how to make themselves relevent to the dog under distraction which is of course the foundation of all things awesome when it comes to off lead control. Or onlead for that matter.
> But for certain situations where long term, consistent, sensible and genuinely skilled training is not rectifying the problem, it's a subject I'll broach.
> You couldn't pay me any amount of money to put a cheap collar (or certain brands of expensive ones) on a dog or to cut corners and just correct into compliance. It takes weeks of gentle conditioning at extremely low levels paired with rewards under increasing distractions to build in the required behaviour and done right, a collar that has been used to whisper on something like level 3 out of 100 only need be used to shout at 12 or 15 out of 100 to gain compliance and understanding that recall is non-negotiable.
> Again - I am NOT promoting here. This is my personal line in the sand. I will not restrict a dog to a largely onlead lifestyle whilst this option is available.
> ...


That's how I felt. I spent weeks researching this as I had never used one before then weeks (with a trainer) conditioning the collar. The collar I chose is eye wateringly expensive but for me it offered so much that I wanted & looked to be the most comfortable for my dog. For me I had seen them used so badly that I could never have imagined using one but then, after seeing some really skilled trainers & discussions I knew this could be a really good option for me & Kato.

Some people I know are so anti them & am sure I will be heavily criticised but tbh I really don't care. If people think me using one means I am abusing my dog then they obviously don't know me very well at all


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Katalyst said:


> As I said, I'm not out to impose my personal opinions on others as where I draw my ethical lines would be very different to others on here.
> One of my dogs is a malinois x greyhound who when his first owners did let him off would bugger off for hours. He knows he can be gone forever if he wants to. I have put a year of extensive work building value in me, bite tugs (his favourite thing) and a ball into this dog but in certain circumstances, that all falls on its arse and his environment will still win. I will shortly be bringing in means to proof the hard work I've already put in and add an additional layer of communication. Recall is non negotiable for me
> For me _very personally_ I will not restrain a dog on lead forever without exploring every single avenue available and I wont restrict myself to R+ only for this. I'm no yank and crank and I'm no compulsion based trainer. Everything I do is rooted in a reward based system. But I have had 100% success in getting "impossible" dogs bomb proof off lead using methods that would be beyond the line many on here would draw. As I say, it's down to where everyone draws their line. I'm comfortable with where mine is.
> 
> ...


I do agree with you, which is why I am putting SO much effort into this with Ava. But not everybody has the time/skill/money to invest in this and many dogs CAN have a very happy life with lead only walks, provided that they have some outlet for their natural instincts.

For me, the main reasons that I can't let Ava off lead at the moment are the same reasons that I am working so hard to be able to. She has pretty strong instincts and I want her to be able to go off and hunt and run. I love nothing more than seeing dogs just running/hunting/whatever for the sheer joy of it and I will put in the time and effort (and money) to achieve this.

For Ava, I would draw the line at compulsion-based training, just because she is such a sensitive little dog and her previous owner used 'traditional' methods of gundog training which she clearly did not respond well to. 


O2.0 said:


> I have talked that book up endlessly on here
> I think the trifecta for prey driven dogs is "Hunting Together" by Simone Muller, "When Pigs Fly" by Jane Killion, and any of the "Control Unleashed" books by Leslie McDevitt. I use principles from all three to get the attention and responsiveness from Penny that I need.
> I think Susan Garrett does a lot of similar stuff with her recallers games and online course. I've never taken it, but I've read a lot of her stuff and watched the demos. The only thing with recallers is that she's all about controlling the environment and that's not always possible for things like wildlife popping out.


I am using those three books  and starting to see progress.
I really like Susan Garrett - but I agree that she, and many other dog trainers, are all about controlling the environment which, for the average person who doesn't own acres of land or live in the middle of nowhere, is just not realistic.

I know they are not everyone's cup of tea, but I find some of the absolute dogs stuff quite useful too. Their methods are nothing new, and the relentless cheeriness can be a bit much. but they are very good at making training accessible by breaking things down into short games to play with your dog which will increase their engagement/focus.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Dimwit said:


> many dogs CAN have a very happy life with lead only walks, provided that they have some outlet for their natural instincts.


I think that plays into alot too. People have to be realistic about their lifestyle and what dog breed they get. So someone living in a town with lead only parks could probably get a toy breed and it would be living a very happy fulfilled life with lots of lead walks but a gundog might be very frustrated and depressed with that kind of exercise and lifestyle.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Ha ha way to kick a hornets nest @02.2. @Dimwit you took the words out of my mouth a lot of people don’t have the time, skill, money to do the in depth work. I’ve had times when I can give training 100% but the last few months I’ve openly managed to keep us all alive. 

Some folk will get a dog from a rescue with the caveat they can’t go off lead but are otherwise a perfect fit. I’ve met husky owners for whom the risk isn’t worth it to let them off but then compete in sports and the dog has a great life. 

I think when we start using words like unethical and restrictived life people are going to take offence obviously everyone is entitled to their opinion but yeah I do feel judged.

So many folk let their dogs off when they shouldn’t which leaves them in danger. For me the day I decided to keep Loki in the long line we started enjoying our walks more.

He travels with me, runs (when I can) with me, explores and we play games. I don’t see him as restricted. I see some dogs on the same walk everyday owners not engaging, dog off lead doing its own thing.

There is so much more complexity to a dog’s enjoyment on walks rather on vs off lead. Do they get one walk a day? Sit in a crate for hours ? Go to different places? Go to training ?

As for collars not something I’d do but I don’t see it as abuse if you know what your doing unfortunately a lot will not use them correctly. I’ve read enough of your posts about training @Cleo38 to hazard a guess you do know what your talking about.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

catz4m8z said:


> I think that plays into alot too. People have to be realistic about their lifestyle and what dog breed they get. So someone living in a town with lead only parks could probably get a toy breed and it would be living a very happy fulfilled life with lots of lead walks but a gundog might be very frustrated and depressed with that kind of exercise and lifestyle.


I'm certain provided they're allowed to sniff and and potter around, neither of the Schnauzer buys could care less whether they're on a lead or not.


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

@Boxer123 and @Dimwit Dont ever feel judged for doing what YOU feel is right. I have zero doubt I'm getting a ton of judgement from plenty of people regarding my discussed choices but I know that my dogs lead very fulfilled and happy lives just like you know yours does. I think people are missing the point here and talking in absolutes (which has already been brought up by @O2.0). Dogs that get to be dogs in hired fields, mooch on longlines, recieve training and enrichment are not dogs that live boring lives.

I've said it already but I'll say it again: I'd rather see a dog on a longline than being let off when it is not safe for them to be doing so.

I try very hard to never judge anyone for their choices so long as their dogs are happy. I've simply shared how _I_ feel about _my_ dogs. And given that I have the ability to use a tool in a harm free way and guarantee that off lead freedom, it would not sit comfortably with me not to do so. That doesnt mean I think everyone should. I'm happy to discuss this if anyone wishes to but rest assured that I've yet to have a dog find an e-collar inherently aversive in the way that most dogs find say, a head halter which is a very commonly accepted tool. Both require extensive conditioning to be used properly, both require training and are not a quick fix but one is not inherently aversive when it is just being worn by a dog who has never encountered it before.

For better or worse, e-collars are an extremely vilified and grossly misunderstood tool that tend to get raged about by voices that have never seen one in use. I'm extremely pleased to see sensible discussion taking place here on the matter rather than just knee-jerk panic reactions.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I did consider using a collar with Tora, the dog who had poor recall. I would call her, she would stop and look back, I would be dancing up and down on the spot waving the treat bag in one hand and a tug toy in the other and calling in the most encouraging tones. She would laugh, stick a finger up and hare off after whatever it was she thought she saw. The other dog would be sat on my feet waiting for her treat and playtime. 
I met up with a lady who had a number of GR’s and she told me that one of hers was like Tora, we compared notes and found we had dogs from the same kennels.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

Mine are allowed off lead when it’s safe to do so. My Yorkie loves chasing her tennis ball. When she’s not doing that then she doesn’t go very far. My Lhasa/Apso isn’t bothered and often stays by my side even when he is off lead. Whilst he was recovering from the operation to repair his cruciate ligament he was fine being in a pushchair. My sister’s dog is totally different and bounds all over the place when let off. They prefer her off lead as she pulls when on lead whereas both of mine walk nicely.


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## Jason25 (May 8, 2018)

Most of our walks are done on lead, usually with a 10m flexi and a little off lead walking when there's no one about. I do find we do 3 different types of walks, hiking across the moors, lane walks where she can get her head down and sniff all the different scents and then block walks early morning which we just do basic training like walking to heel and sitting before crossing the road etc

I sometimes do feel a bit guilty that she remains on the lead a lot of the time, but then try to remind myself of all the other fun things we do together like renting a private field, training, playing games, belly rubs or even just going for ice cream 😂 I think she does okay.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Funny how so many of us have so much guilt with our dogs despite us all doing so much for them, Today mine was eased as Kato finally got to go swimming. (He is recovering from a fractured leg which then had complications due to a persistent infection so we have had a very difficult couple of months).

He had such a lovely time & it was so nice to see him being able to do an activity so freely without me steadying him the whole time.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> Funny how so many of us have so much guilt with our dogs despite us all doing so much for them, Today mine was eased as Kato finally got to go swimming. (He is recovering from a fractured leg which then had complications due to a persistent infection so we have had a very difficult couple of months).
> 
> He had such a lovely time & it was so nice to see him being able to do an activity so freely without me steadying him the whole time.


It’s how much love them I guess. I never knew before getting dogs how much I’d love them and how much my priorities would change.


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## BarkieMcDogface (7 mo ago)

I never let my dog off the lead and didn't walk him in in parks / dog parks. We walked on the pavement for miles on end! I think the law now states that dogs MUST be on the lead when near roads of built up areas (I could be wrong). 

I did test my dog and drop the lead on his walk just to see what he would do, he just stopped and looked back at me, I then praised him. But I didn't take him off the lead ever. Luckily, when he was alive we have a massive back garden so he ran around there.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Siskin said:


> we compared notes and found we had dogs from the same kennels.


Figures!  


In addition to allowing dogs to be dogs, I'm going to selfishly say that being able to turn my dog loose is convenient and often easier for me! It's not all about Penny, my needs matter too 

I just spent about 4 hours with Penny in tow. 
She alternates between completely loose, dragging her line, on-leash close to me, and contained in a bike basket or simply held. 

She is loose where it is safe for her to be loose. Sometimes she chases kids, sometimes she's just mooching around, but she keeps an eye on where I am. <-- this is the part that makes my life SO much easier. I can drop her long line, let her go about her business, pay attention to what I'm supposed to be paying attention to - the kids, and not worry that Penny is going to wander off or not come if I call her. 

I'll be honest, these outings are not for Penny. It was work, I was focused on the kids, I'm doing a job, and the dog is incidental to that. But she loves coming and enjoys being there and she can be because I can depend on her to be responsive to me. 
She also comes with me to puppy class, again, not for her, all she does is sit in her crate for an hour or so. But she's happy to come, she gets a walk before and after in-town (on leash) and she loves the novelty of a 'city' outing. 

Though I do much less fashioning my life around my dog's needs than many on here do, Penny gets included in a big chunk of it, and I feel like her life is richer for being able to jump in the car and go with me without me having to worry about how she will cope or how I will cope with having to deal with her.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> Figures!
> 
> 
> In addition to allowing dogs to be dogs, I'm going to selfishly say that being able to turn my dog loose is convenient and often easier for me! It's not all about Penny, my needs matter too
> ...


This isn’t limited to off leash though although o imagine it would make life easier. I’m great full the boxers travel so well no issues. Obviously my back has been sore this week and they have walked so beautifully on their leads. We’ve had workmen in and out this week no issues. Letting Loki off would be the icing on the cake.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Boxer123 said:


> This isn’t limited to off leash though although o imagine it would make life easier. I’m great full the boxers travel so well no issues. Obviously my back has been sore this week and they have walked so beautifully on their leads. We’ve had workmen in and out this week no issues. Letting Loki off would be the icing on the cake.


I agree. Being off leash is a bonus but not an absolute necessity. Generally speaking, I take my dogs everywhere with me. If that's not possible. like going to the dentist, or food shopping, then they get left in the car or at home when the weather's too hot. The whole emphasis of their training has been to have two dogs who can adapt and cope with whatever situation we find ourselves in. 

Not so long ago when my car had a puncture and no spare, the Schnauzer boys who were in the car, were hauled onto the back of a tow truck, then spent the next hour in the car, in a noisy garage whilst new tyres were fitted. Both of them slept through the whole process as though it was the most normal thing in life. 

It's times like that when I really appreciate them!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Magyarmum said:


> I agree. Being off leash is a bonus but not an absolute necessity. Generally speaking, I take my dogs everywhere with me. If that's not possible. like going to the dentist, or food shopping, then they get left in the car or at home when the weather's too hot. The whole emphasis of their training has been to have two dogs who can adapt and cope with whatever situation we find ourselves in.
> 
> Not so long ago when my car had a puncture and no spare, the Schnauzer boys who were in the car, were hauled onto the back of a tow truck, then spent the next hour in the car, in a noisy garage whilst new tyres were fitted. Both of them slept through the whole process as though it was the most normal thing in life.
> 
> It's times like that when I really appreciate them!


Yeah the boxers have their quirks but they cope with a lot. Moving day they had to sit in the car whilst I helped my stepdad. I always take them on holiday with me.


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## Soph x (9 mo ago)

If there's a lot of people and other dogs around, then I keep Goose on a lead and muzzle for her own safety and comfort, as well as the other people using the area.

However, with her favourite places I know when the less busy times are and always try to take her during these times when there is no one around. This is when I let her off lead so she can enjoy her time running around, splashing in water and playing ball. If I see another person or dog approaching though, she's called back and put on her lead until they pass.

Too many people don't teach their dog recall, so it's just safer and easier for Goose if she's called back to be on her lead and muzzled.

She also seems more confident when her muzzle is on for some reason. When it's off, people she doesn't know or other dogs will trigger her and she will react.
Took her to [email protected] the other day to get her new dog tag engraved and she had her muzzle on, the employee who was helping us was able to give her scratches on her head! Whilst we were waiting for the machine he sat down, and she even sat down infront of him with her back to him and really wiggled backwards like she does with me when she wants scratches!  I was gobsmacked and honestly wanted to cry at how far she's come, as that never would have been possible say a year ago!


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Very true both.
Now I think about it, apart from Whisp's reactive moments and the odd deer chase she has fit into my life beautifully.
I can leave her at home if needed and she just sleeps, she walks wonderfully on her various leads, she's always happy to go somewhere new and she travels very well so we can take her for day trips and on holiday.

And even with my 2 "normal" dogs that were OK off lead, going to new places I never let them off 'cos you never know what's around the next corner.

Also I know of afew local dogs that are ok off lead but they pull like a train on their leads.

Eta; she's also amazing on her group walks and is very popular with her human and doggy friends as she generally has good manners (apart from with her friend Max the gs who play bitey face with each other)


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Magyarmum said:


> Being off leash is a bonus but not an absolute necessity.


I'd struggle to give my dogs enough exercise if they couldn't be off lead. With my arthritic knee (and a hip going the same way) I can't do the miles it would need.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Magyarmum said:


> Being off leash is a bonus but not an absolute necessity.


There are many things we do with our dogs that aren't an absolute necessity but they enrich their lives, improve their health, and just make them happier. Off-leash time is definitely one of those things.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> There are many things we do with our dogs that aren't an absolute necessity but they enrich their lives, improve their health, and just make them happier. Off-leash time is definitely one of those things.


It definitely is for my dogs. During Kato's recovery I have tried so hard to make his (short) walks more exciting. We go to places where he can roll in long grass as he loves this, places where we can sit & watch the water birds on the river, where there are nice smells, sandy dirt for a bit of digging & whilst this is nice that we can interact nothing has been as exciting for him as yesterday when he was offlead & could swim.


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## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

I live in a town , there are no secure fields within my reach , the nearest being a 1-1/2 to 2 hour drive away and I don't drive so Chip was and now Shadow are on leash all the time .
I am also restricted to how far I can walk being disabled and having to use a crutch , I only have 1 hand free to hold the leash and can not handle a long line with 1 hand .
I used to take Chip on my scooter to a large open space when I could where he could run around more on a 10 mtr flexi lead , his recall wasn't too bad but not 100% and something I always worked on just in case I managed to take him some where he could have a run off lead .
I have only just started trying to condition Shadow to going on the scooter so I can not yet take her to the open space that I used with Chip , so she is restricted to local walks on leash all the time .
I do try to vary her walks as much as my mobility will allow me and we walk where there are large grass verges and small green spaces with trees and bushes .
I do feel VERY guilty that she spends all her time on leash and that is not helped by people saying that she should be off lead , it is not fair to keep a dog like her on lead etc which I get ALL the time .
It makes me feel that I am not the right home for her and maybe she would be better off with some one more physically able to give her what I can't .
I would love to live some where she could be off lead , I think Shadow would love to be able to run free , she runs back and for on the little green that we go to as much as she can even though she is arthritic in her back end .
All our walks are solely for her and led by her she is allowed to sniff what ever she wants for as long as she wants , but I don't think it is enough for her and I feel like I am letting her down not being able to give her what she needs..


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Rosie64 said:


> I live in a town , there are no secure fields within my reach , the nearest being a 1-1/2 to 2 hour drive away and I don't drive so Chip was and now Shadow are on leash all the time .
> I am also restricted to how far I can walk being disabled and having to use a crutch , I only have 1 hand free to hold the leash and can not handle a long line with 1 hand .
> I used to take Chip on my scooter to a large open space when I could where he could run around more on a 10 mtr flexi lead , his recall wasn't too bad but not 100% and something I always worked on just in case I managed to take him some where he could have a run off lead .
> I have only just started trying to condition Shadow to going on the scooter so I can not yet take her to the open space that I used with Chip , so she is restricted to local walks on leash all the time .
> ...


Ignore all the letting her off the lead people, you are the right home for her. She’s an elderly dogs, many aren’t alive at her age. 
I guess people are looking at her and seeing a collie so therefore need loads of running about which is completely wrong. Collies also need things to work their brains as well as exercise and you do this as much as you can with her. Working sheepdogs on farms will have been in retirement long before they’ve reached the age Shadow is and they will just spend much of the day just sleeping with a bit of pottering around
You are definitely the right home for her


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## Jocky San (Jun 3, 2017)

Rosie64 said:


> All our walks are solely for her and led by her she is allowed to sniff what ever she wants for as long as she wants , but I don't think it is enough for her and I feel like I am letting her down not being able to give her what she needs..


You shouldn't feel guilty. You are already giving a dog a home and a master and that's 99% of their needs. When all is said and done we have to remember the order of things. I love my girl to bits, but she is a dog, and she is on the lead whenever she needs to be, and she doesn't object for a second. Someone once told me that when a dog is on a lead, they simply think they are connected to you, but you are also connected to them. So it's a two-way thing, not a one-way. As humans, there are lots of things we might like to do but can't or aren't allowed to. We don't let that define our lives. It sounds like your Shadow is happy, and probably happy to have a master that she can tell loves her and looks after her. That matters more than any amount of off-lead time.


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

Rosie64 said:


> I live in a town , there are no secure fields within my reach , the nearest being a 1-1/2 to 2 hour drive away and I don't drive so Chip was and now Shadow are on leash all the time .
> I am also restricted to how far I can walk being disabled and having to use a crutch , I only have 1 hand free to hold the leash and can not handle a long line with 1 hand .
> I used to take Chip on my scooter to a large open space when I could where he could run around more on a 10 mtr flexi lead , his recall wasn't too bad but not 100% and something I always worked on just in case I managed to take him some where he could have a run off lead .
> I have only just started trying to condition Shadow to going on the scooter so I can not yet take her to the open space that I used with Chip , so she is restricted to local walks on leash all the time .
> ...


I'm going to assume you've long since thought of all of this but is there no one locally be they a trainer or walker that can help with her and get her out on a longline to give her more freedom and help with her recall so that she can eventually be off lead with you? Your guilt is assuaged and Shadow gets to stretch her legs even if it's just a couple of times a month. Everyone wins  
I've had success in the past putting up an advert on local facebook groups asking if I can rent out secure gardens for an hour at a time here and there when secure paddocks weren't available round here. People were really willing to help and it solved a temporary problem a few years back. Might be worth a try?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

It's an interesting difference, in decades of owning dogs in the US, I've never been told or encouraged to let any of my dogs off-leash or heard anyone suggest it to others. Most places have pretty strict leash laws and seeing dogs on leashes even in areas where it would be safe for them to be off is the norm. 

If anything it's the opposite. I'm forever telling people to leash their dogs because they either don't have any control, or it's a leashed only area and there's a really good reason dogs should be leashed, or a combination of both. 

As has already been mentioned several times, I'd rather see a dog leashed and safe than unleashed and unsafe. But I do think _safe_ unleashed experiences are one of the many ways we can enrich our dogs' lives.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> It's an interesting difference, in decades of owning dogs in the US, I've never been told or encouraged to let any of my dogs off-leash or heard anyone suggest it to others. Most places have pretty strict leash laws and seeing dogs on leashes even in areas where it would be safe for them to be off is the norm.
> 
> If anything it's the opposite. I'm forever telling people to leash their dogs because they either don't have any control, or it's a leashed only area and there's a really good reason dogs should be leashed, or a combination of both.
> 
> As has already been mentioned several times, I'd rather see a dog leashed and safe than unleashed and unsafe. But I do think _safe_ unleashed experiences are one of the many ways we can enrich our dogs' lives.


Last time (sunday) I asked an owner to please put a lead on their dogs as they were constantly running up to us I got told where to go.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Beth78 said:


> Last time (sunday) I asked an owner to please put a lead on their dogs as they were constantly running up to us I got told where to go.


Oh I get told where to go all the time too. But I figure at least I tried. Usually I just remind the owner that dogs are supposed to be leashed in this area and leave it at that. The particularly rude or out of control dogs might get their owners more of a lecture, depending on how apologetic they are and my mood


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Rosie64 said:


> I live in a town , there are no secure fields within my reach , the nearest being a 1-1/2 to 2 hour drive away and I don't drive so Chip was and now Shadow are on leash all the time .
> I am also restricted to how far I can walk being disabled and having to use a crutch , I only have 1 hand free to hold the leash and can not handle a long line with 1 hand .
> I used to take Chip on my scooter to a large open space when I could where he could run around more on a 10 mtr flexi lead , his recall wasn't too bad but not 100% and something I always worked on just in case I managed to take him some where he could have a run off lead .
> I have only just started trying to condition Shadow to going on the scooter so I can not yet take her to the open space that I used with Chip , so she is restricted to local walks on leash all the time .
> ...


She’s not a youngster anymore and has a few mobility issues, so I would say that what you are able to give her is plenty good enough …. coupled with giving her a loving, warm and caring home out of rescue …. She’s very lucky and I’m sure would tell you so if she could speak 

It saddens me that so many of you feel guilty not being able to let your dogs off when you give them so much …. I can honestly say I never did.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> It's an interesting difference, in decades of owning dogs in the US, I've never been told or encouraged to let any of my dogs off-leash or heard anyone suggest it to others. Most places have pretty strict leash laws and seeing dogs on leashes even in areas where it would be safe for them to be off is the norm.
> 
> If anything it's the opposite. I'm forever telling people to leash their dogs because they either don't have any control, or it's a leashed only area and there's a really good reason dogs should be leashed, or a combination of both.
> 
> As has already been mentioned several times, I'd rather see a dog leashed and safe than unleashed and unsafe. But I do think _safe_ unleashed experiences are one of the many ways we can enrich our dogs' lives.


It’s mostly mansplaining that I get. Middle aged men seem drawn to me and Loki to give unsolicited advice.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Boxer123 said:


> It’s mostly mansplaining that I get. Middle aged men seem drawn to me and Loki to give unsolicited advice.


Yes !
That sounds very familiar, that and "you need to show her who's boss"


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Beth78 said:


> Yes !
> That sounds very familiar, that and "you need to show her who's boss"


Ha ha oh god yes. One bloke his off lead dog had a pop at Loki. Next time we see him Loki freezes and refuses to move, ‘you need to show him who’s boss.’ I answered, ‘he knows it’s him’ the man’s wife looked embarrassed.


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## Oof (12 mo ago)

Finn is walked 100% of the time on lead or on a long-line where appropriate.
He has a crazy high prey drive, with vehicles being his "prey" of choice, and whilst he is better around cars, realistically I cannot see him improving much further if at all.

The mutt has a fabulous life and I feel no guilt whatsoever 🙂 

(I do love seeing handlers that have taught brilliant recall though)


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

For those of you who let the longline drag do you feel you need to speed up and be extra alert at all ?
I find it terrifying. It's always on my mind when I do that a deer could suddenly bounce in front of whisp and that's it she would be off in a split second, no time to step on or grab the end.
Last time deer ran in front of her she was on a 6ft lead and she pulled me over and the lead out of my hand.


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## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

Dan does listen and recall is quite good, but he will chase bikes and runners if given the chance. He's getting less bothered now he's coming up to four years old though and if he's onlead often doesn't react at all. He has a late evening (between 8.30-9pm) walk around the many paths of the local CP where he can be off lead, as there are fewer users then he doesn't usually stray from the path and has a good "wait" command, where he will stop and wait to be held or leashed until the runner/biker/dog is out of sight. Flexi lead is used at busier times. It's good whilst the grass is longer and he can't see over it at the moment it's waist high, so we can divert onto another path. 
The magic recall that never fails, as he's such a FOMO dog is if we hug each other or he hears the word kiss - he recalls at break-neck speed lol!  
The little so and so knows that if we go by car it's to the CP so he's started to sit by the car and refuse to move if I try to take him on a road walk - the little shi tzu cross..........AKA boss dog


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## Oof (12 mo ago)

Beth78 said:


> For those of you who let the longline drag do you feel you need to speed up and be extra alert at all ?
> I find it terrifying. It's always on my mind when I do that a deer could suddenly bounce in front of whisp and that's it she would be off in a split second, no time to step on or grab the end.
> Last time deer ran in front of her she was on a 6ft lead and she pulled me over and the lead out of my hand.


I've thought about this too. I've only let it trail a couple of times because I felt so stressed. I was constantly calling Finn back "just in case", and it felt pretty unenjoyable. I hold the line (even learnt how to do it without ruining my hands now 😎), and Finn's learnt where it reaches. 

I'm a longline convert thanks to this forum.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Oof said:


> Finn is walked 100% of the time on lead or on a long-line where appropriate.
> He has a crazy high prey drive, with vehicles being his "prey" of choice, and whilst he is better around cars, realistically I cannot see him improving much further if at all.
> 
> The mutt has a fabulous life and I feel no guilt whatsoever 🙂
> ...


Vehicles are the prey of choice made me laugh sounds like Loki he wouldn’t hesitate to chase a car or bike.


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## Oof (12 mo ago)

Boxer123 said:


> Vehicles are the prey of choice made me laugh sounds like Loki he wouldn’t hesitate to chase a car or bike.


Haha, car chasing is the dog equivalent of big game hunting 😑


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## Jocky San (Jun 3, 2017)

Beth78 said:


> For those of you who let the longline drag do you feel you need to speed up and be extra alert at all ?
> I find it terrifying. It's always on my mind when I do that a deer could suddenly bounce in front of whisp and that's it she would be off in a split second, no time to step on or grab the end.
> Last time deer ran in front of her she was on a 6ft lead and she pulled me over and the lead out of my hand.


I only used a long line when she was a young puppy and the lead was long enough to run behind me but also to slow her down a bit so I always could jump on it. Now, she is either off-lead or on a heavy-duty long extendable, this lets her run around all she wants but still give me control to hit the button and reign her in.
I have learned two things however, as she can pull a train: 1. Never wrap the lead around your wrist, you risk being pulled of balance with all that entails, and 2. If the prey drive does kick in, in and she's off at full speed, extendable buzzing like a fisherman's reel then either hunker down rugby style with both hands or *... let go*!


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Beth78 said:


> For those of you who let the longline drag do you feel you need to speed up and be extra alert at all ?
> I find it terrifying. It's always on my mind when I do that a deer could suddenly bounce in front of whisp and that's it she would be off in a split second, no time to step on or grab the end.
> Last time deer ran in front of her she was on a 6ft lead and she pulled me over and the lead out of my hand.


I walk two dogs on 5 or 10 metre long lines or one dog on a 15 metre line. When I'm walking both of them I actually prefer the 10 metre lines. Although I haven't seen any recently, we do have deer wild boar and the usual squirrels, foxes and pheasants which are liable to pop when you're not expecting them. I keep a close eye on what the boys doing and try to make sure they're not too far away.mainly because being well past my sell date, I can't walk quickly (I also use a stick most of the time as well). Gwylim's got better recall than Grisha, but Grisha won't go far without Gwylim, so I tend to use that knowledge to my advantage when necessary.

The photo below is slightly farther than I like them to go, but they'd both stopped after I'd told Gwylim to wait for me and I was able to catch up with them.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Oof said:


> realistically I cannot see him improving much further if at all.


I think this is where experience can really help. If Penny had been one of my first dogs I think I would have had a much harder time getting her off-leash safe. Not that it was a walk in the park at this point either, I've worked my ass off with her, but at this point in my training life I have a much better grasp of a dog's capabilities and confidence in my own abilities to read where the dog is at in the training progression. And I still feel like I learn so much with each new dog 

With my recently passed dog, Bates, I had the opportunity to work with a few trainers more versed in dogs like him that I was. I had to learn to let him go _there_ in his arousal to teach him to still listen even when in that kind of state. It's not something I ever would have been comfortable doing had I not had someone essentially holding my hand through the whole process. But that lesson stayed with me and made it much easier for me to deal with similar issues with other dogs.



Oof said:


> I've thought about this too. I've only let it trail a couple of times because I felt so stressed. I was constantly calling Finn back "just in case", and it felt pretty unenjoyable.


I'm sure you know this but this is a common reason why dogs lose their recall. Constantly calling a dog back is textbook negative punishment removing him from things he wants - sniffs, running, freedom, which by definition will diminish the behavior of recall. 

It's common advice to not recall your dog when you know they won't come, but it's also good advice to not recall your dog when a simple "this way" or check-in will suffice. 



Beth78 said:


> Last time deer ran in front of her she was on a 6ft lead and she pulled me over and the lead out of my hand.


LOL so she ended up off leash anyway  
When I started this thread I had in my head the crank 'n yank trainers that pop up in my social media feed that just love to show off these sad dogs plodding next to them (or frantically appeasing them and calling it 'engagement'), and then if these same dogs are off leash, they're still just plodding about and have this totally lack-luster recall, never an example of a dog whiplash-ing off a chase to recall back to the handler. 
These same people would show you how to jerk Whisp back in situations like that and teach her "leash manners" yet it would do absolutely nothing for her off-leash skills. 
My own philosophy is that if you have a dog who's going to lunge after wildlife on a leash, if you can get them to respond to you _without_ having to jerk or pull or correct with said leash, it goes a hell of a long way towards getting them to respond to you when they don't have a leash on at all. Hence my comment about off-leash skills and on-leash manners being connected, which I still think they are. 



DanWalkersmum said:


> The little so and so knows that if we go by car it's to the CP so he's started to sit by the car and refuse to move if I try to take him on a road walk


Penny is a little diva about this too. I just went out to mow the lawn (and renewed my hate of fire ants but I digress). She got it in her head that we were going somewhere fun, not just to mow the stupid lawn. She parked her butt next to the car looking defiant - even as I was pulling the lawnmower out of the shed  



Jocky San said:


> If the prey drive does kick in, in and she's off at full speed, extendable buzzing like a fisherman's reel then either hunker down rugby style with both hands or *... let go*!


Letting go of a clunky flexi handle seems a pretty dangerous proposition to me. The dog could spook and run from the thing chasing him, the handle could swing about and injure another person or dog... This is where long lines really shine because it's much safer to drop a line if you have to.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> It's an interesting difference, in decades of owning dogs in the US, I've never been told or encouraged to let any of my dogs off-leash or heard anyone suggest it to others. Most places have pretty strict leash laws and seeing dogs on leashes even in areas where it would be safe for them to be off is the norm.


There are quite a few fairly new dog owners in my area who are always telling me that if my dog is not aggressive I should let her off lead.
Mind you, these are the same people who meet in the recreation ground near my house every morning when the kids are in school and all let their dogs off the lead to run around together and told me I should come to ‘socialise’ Ava


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

I like that you brought up the flexi lead handles @O2.0. The fear of dropping a flexi and it spooking a dog as it "chases" them made it something I proof for now. 
(This is where I really am burned at the stake - I use a flexi quite often at night for "last go sniffs" for dogs I can just let out of the door and up the (dead end, private) road and bridle path off leash. I've got crappy nerve damaged hands and have dropped a bulky flexi handle several times so I now make it a game and use it as part of proofing recall. 

This thread is making me want to make a bunch of videos showcasing recall off huge distractions and show what is possible with "impossible" dogs. It'll have to wait until it isn't 30 billion degrees though but I'd love to show examples happy, engaged dogs recalling off difficult situations as a bit of a middle finger to all those yank and cranks @O2.0 has touched upon. I love watching my dogs fly back to me for a jackpot reward with ridiculous enthusiasm (yes, even when a collar has been engaged as a subtle tap on the shoulder to remind them I exist. For certain dogs, those collars are my seatbelts. I hope I/owner will never need to use them, but they're there if needed).


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## Oof (12 mo ago)

O2.0 said:


> I think this is where experience can really help. If Penny had been one of my first dogs I think I would have had a much harder time getting her off-leash safe. Not that it was a walk in the park at this point either, I've worked my ass off with her, but at this point in my training life I have a much better grasp of a dog's capabilities and confidence in my own abilities to read where the dog is at in the training progression. And I still feel like I learn so much with each new dog
> 
> With my recently passed dog, Bates, I had the opportunity to work with a few trainers more versed in dogs like him that I was. I had to learn to let him go _there_ in his arousal to teach him to still listen even when in that kind of state. It's not something I ever would have been comfortable doing had I not had someone essentially holding my hand through the whole process. But that lesson stayed with me and made it much easier for me to deal with similar issues with other dogs.
> 
> ...


Yeah, "burning the cue"? (Brain fog, so this could be the wrong term).
I can't argue with you on what you said. I know when I first got him, if I could've found a safe place to practice where Finn could see and hear cars, but not be able to run in to them, I would've felt more confident and enthusiastic about training that.
I guess part of it (for me now) is whether the time spent on training something that is only ever a possibility of being successful is worth it when I could put it in other areas.

If the off-lead thing is his only struggle, I will gladly accept failure as a trainer!


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> LOL so she ended up off leash anyway


Yes, she did indeed. After getting her lead caught on a tree she did recall, but it does haunt me as the road was meters away.


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

Cad gets offlead maybe 2/3 of his walks? He gets dropped line for over 3/4 of them which gives freedom to sniff and run and such, but his speed massively increases when fully offlead vs dragging even a short line. It mostly depends where his walks are; whether he's being exercised because I'm going somewhere and he is coming too, or whether I am Going On A Dog Walk with his enjoyment as the focus.

People, the specific environment, other dogs, other distractions, and time of day are also considerations, but the type of walk is the main one for us. If I left him at home more his overall amount of offlead time would increase. But you can't really leave the dog at home when you're lurking around in town between the vets and your bus home, for example.

Offlead focus and safety was the number two thing I started working on when he was new (number 1 was cat intros), so it's always been an important part of our life together.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Edited, success stories not welcome, I get it.


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

O2.0 said:


> You mean sighthounds?
> I can show you an impossible terrier recalling beautifully and then... not.


Sighthounds, beagles, northern breeds, imported ex hunting HPRs... it's become a speciality of sorts and something I'm a bit in love with doing. Few things make me happier than seeing a dog running and being free to do dog stuff (well, as free as any trained pet ever really is).

I also have a brilliantly embarrassing video somewhere of Spider showing me up spectacularly maybe 8 months back though - I called, he started heading back and then just gave me the finger and proceeded to amble off, piss on some grass, eat a fly and do a lap of the spaghetti-zoomies around the field whilst I stood there silently cursing adolescent dogs and wondering why I keep loonyhounds in the first place 🥴
They sure know how to humble us 🤣

Also, that recall video is just the bloody cutest thing, look at her tiny leggies! 😍


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Just what us “inadequate” owners need …to be shown by the more dedicated and successful just how it can/should be done…..

I’m out.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Lurcherlad said:


> Just what us “inadequate” owners need …to be shown by the more dedicated and successful just how it can/should be done…..
> 
> I’m out.


Wow is that how you take my posts? Damn... I had no idea that's how you felt. I wonder how many other posters feel that way? Actually I'm just having a realization that you're not at all alone are you? Yeah, this feels like hitting a brick wall... 

Don't leave, I will. 
I'm not going to sit here and pretend I'm not stinking proud of how far Penny has come and how much I have dedicated to getting her there. Yes, I do take credit for some of it. Penny is a phenomenal dog, she gets most of the credit herself, and my supportive dog training friends who encourage and help us. 

I don't need this kind of negativity. Wow, what an eye opener....


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I had no idea this was such a touchy subject but then I think back to when I had Roxy & she was at the pinnacle of her chasing 'career' & I remember how much of a failure I felt.

Like others have posted I was constantly being told it wasn't fair on her, I was being too stressy, she 'needed' offlead time, etc . Added to all the other problems she had that I felt I was failing again & this was just another to add to the list. So maybe if I looked back at my past posts I would have been snipy towards someone posting about how their dogs could recall really well .... 

The I met the IGP trainer I train with & he completely changed my thinking. Roxy was my dog, I stopped comparing her to others,. I stopped focussing on what she/I couldn't do (offlead walks) & started working on making our walks more enjoyable for both of us. We did alot more interaction, more games, some training exercises, etc then I had a cue for her to 'go sniff' & just walk.

I stopped worrying & just enjoyed our time together, changing my mindset took a huge burden off my shoulders. It is so easy to compare our dogs but really just sets us up for disappointment. My friend has a young dog the same age as Kato (18mths old), he can almost do an IGP 1 round yet Kato is no where near that level. Initially I did have the odd pang of envy when I saw her training videos but considering a couple of weeks ago there was a chance Kato was going to have to be PTS (due to a persistent infection after an op for a fractured leg) it honestly isn't something I get hung up about. Just having him still with me is the most important thing to me

I did go though a stage of feeling like a failure with Kato as he was very hard to motivate & very independent but he is such a different dog to both my other two. I don't see it as a failure now but a very different learning experience, he has challenged me (& continues to do so!) & I wouldn't change that. I know it's difficult at times but don;t take someone else's success as a indication of your failure, just try & take either inspiration from them or some training tips or just be happy for them.

We all do our best for our dogs, some people have more challenges than others regarding behaviour or environments, etc but just enjoy your time with them regardless of if they are on or offlead


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I never said anyone shouldn’t be pleased with how they’ve succeeded with their dogs … they should be. I’ve Liked all the threads and posts about their dogs and enjoyed the videos along with everybody else.

Nobody should stop giving training advice or sharing their experiences. There are lots of great threads on the subject and always room for more AND personal success stories

I just think that in THIS thread, when some owners have expressed their feelings of guilt and inadequacy, people banging on about how it CAN be achieved might be unnecessary and a bit insensitive tbh … that’s all.

Ranting on the forum about somebody else’s loose dog with no recall that has wrecked a walk is also ok … I’ve done it myself.

As I stated in an earlier post, I knew this thread would upset people … so I backed out… no drama.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

duplicate


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> Edited, success stories not welcome, I get it.


Oh ok, kind of wondering what you posted now.
I guess if you are having success with your dog that's a wonderful thing to be able to post. I've posted many success stories in the past 3 years.
Not going to lie though as someone who has worked very hard at training my dog and not getting the best end result it can make me wonder what I'm doing wrong and yes I am jealous sometimes but that's my problem I guess. I will never stop training though as I live in perpetual hope.

Anyway whatever it was good for you that you are having success.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> I had no idea this was such a touchy subject but then I think back to when I had Roxy & she was at the pinnacle of her chasing 'career' & I remember how much of a failure I felt.
> 
> Like others have posted I was constantly being told it wasn't fair on her, I was being too stressy, she 'needed' offlead time, etc . Added to all the other problems she had that I felt I was failing again & this was just another to add to the list. So maybe if I looked back at my past posts I would have been snipy towards someone posting about how their dogs could recall really well ....
> 
> ...


Exactly this it is an emotive subject who doesn’t want to see their dog running free enjoying themselves.

I have a huge field literally next door to me but have to pay for one up the road.

I know a more skilled person could probably get Loki recalling. Probably in a week thid dog runs rings around me literally. 

Like I said the last few months we haven’t had the money or time to continue with formal training I’ve been surviving Not thriving. Some posters on here have taken in rescue dogs and done amazing jobs but still feel rotten they haven’t cracked recall.

What would be useful is next steps for a reaction lead dog. He doesn’t chase on the long line, he checks in, at the field he recalls well. Where do you go next ? I took him to a large secure field with a woodland in the middle. First time I let him off his nose hit the ground and he was off into the woods. He’s also reactive so would he go for another dog off lead? I don’t know.


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

Lurcherlad said:


> Just what us “inadequate” owners need …to be shown by the more dedicated and successful just how it can/should be done…..
> 
> I’m out.


This right here is why I gave up posting for so long. 
No one has called you or anyone else inadequate. Thats words you've put in your own head. Stop that. 

Do I find it frustrating how many people are still struggling years down the line with a problem that CAN be fixed?
Yes. Of course I do. All this "it can't be done" with some breeds and dogs gets me down because it's totally false. I respect peoples personal choices however and do not judge.
Do I understand why people people keep their dog on a lead? 
Well, duh. It's been reiterated several times that if you have a poor recall, that's the only opinion unless it's rectified.. 

If you're happy with having an on lead only dog then it doesnt matter a jot that other people are sharing their success stories. Why would you care? 
If you're NOT happy about your dogs on lead status, instead of being offended, maybe consider discussing why some people are having success where others aren't. We are all in this for the dogs after all right? I'm not saying "you should all do what I do/anyone else does!!". 
But don't write your dog off as a lost cause because you wont step outside of a current set mindset. Thats not trying everything and no one improves or grows by getting stuck in ruts.

I get the impression that my posts arent welcome either so guess I should sit down and shut up for a while.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Threads about on lead vs off lead always ended like this one is. And if I'm honest I kind of regret joining in in the 1st place, it's left me feeling cold.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Katalyst said:


> This right here is why I gave up posting for so long.
> No one has called you or anyone else inadequate. Thats words you've put in your own head. Stop that.
> 
> Do I find it frustrating how many people are still struggling years down the line with a problem that CAN be fixed?
> ...


What methods would you use for my lurcher with dog reactivity and high prey drive I'm always open to suggestions.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

9


Beth78 said:


> Threads about on lead vs off lead always ended like this one is. And if I'm honest I kind of regret joining in in the 1st place, it's left me feeling cold.


Why would it leave you cold? Maybe really look at why it does upset you & use that to either make some changes or really accept your dog & yourself.

Every top trainer/competitor aswell as us ordinary dog owners have areas that they don't particularly shine in, the difference is they either accept this or do better.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Cleo38 said:


> 9
> 
> 
> Why would it leave you cold? Maybe really look at why it does upset you & use that to either make some changes or really accept your dog & yourself.
> ...


I don't know probably just being over sensitive as usual.
I really do try with whisp and to read that it annoys some people that I can't train my dog to be safely off lead is just upsetting.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Beth78 said:


> I don't know probably just being over sensitive as usual.
> I really do try with whisp and to read that it annoys some people that I can't train my dog to be safely off lead is just upsetting.


Honestly I get that. My first GSD was a bloody nightmare for chasing & I have endless posts on here moaning about this  

Alot of can't train things that's why we see trainers who can help us & give us ideas.. Again I understand this is easier for some of us than other (financial constraints, etc) . Sometimes it really is small things we do (or don't do) that can make such a difference & have someone skilled assess our training is so very beneficial. 

Maybe give your self a break, accept your dog & work with the traits he has rather than fight against them. Use long lines when you need to, even if this is all the time but look at areas you can improve on. Just have fun together but if this is something that is getting you down then find someone to work with. And find someone who really excels in this area. Too often I see people on here just stress that the trainer has to be positive reinforcement only, etc but that doesn't mean they are a good trainer. I train with many trainers & they are all different but the main things is that they are all great trainers who I admire & like to work with.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> Wow is that how you take my posts? Damn... I had no idea that's how you felt. I wonder how many other posters feel that way? Actually I'm just having a realization that you're not at all alone are you? Yeah, this feels like hitting a brick wall...
> 
> Don't leave, I will.
> I'm not going to sit here and pretend I'm not stinking proud of how far Penny has come and how much I have dedicated to getting her there. Yes, I do take credit for some of it. Penny is a phenomenal dog, she gets most of the credit herself, and my supportive dog training friends who encourage and help us.
> ...


As an inadequate owner whose dog is currently on lead only, I love seeing your videos - it gives me some hope!
I know threads like this get emotive but you are a poster who has consistently posted help and support to others. It would be different if you just posted your success videos and sat there smugly telling people that it is easy and they are just not trying hard enough - but you don't.
You are one of the people on here who consistently tries to help others, by offering advice or posting inks to various books/trainers and even though you often make me feel inadequate because I have nowhere near your dog training skill, I always like to see your comments/videos


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Just to clarify, I didn’t say anyone was calling others inadequate. Some owners had expressed they felt inadequate and even questioned whether they were good enough for their dog. They even shared how upset they’d been by strangers in the street telling them what they should be doing.

There are many threads on training, etc.

This thread seemed to be upsetting a few members, as I knew it would. 

It’s water off a duck’s back to me, but not to everyone.

If people are asking for advice, then knock yourselves out.

I really am backing away now.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Rosie64 said:


> I do feel VERY guilty that she spends all her time on leash and that is not helped by people saying that she should be off lead , it is not fair to keep a dog like her on lead etc which I get ALL the time .


Archie is always on lead, even though he's very well trained. He does get his swims off lead though.



Rosie64 said:


> I would love to live some where she could be off lead , I think Shadow would love to be able to run free , she runs back and for on the little green that we go to as much as she can even though she is arthritic in her back end .


This is why Archie is onlead, even if he gives a little chase, it shows up in his arthritis and old joints later. I'm sure he'd rather be able to walk every day than have one day of excitement and then be confined to barracks for a week.
Honestly @Rosie64, some old dogs are better off on a lead, well until they have realised they are old. Even Alfie spent a year or so at about 13, mainly on lead..............he wouldn't accept his age and used to go off chasing bunnies and jumping fallen trees


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Lurcherlad said:


> Just to clarify, I didn’t say anyone was calling others inadequate. Some owners had expressed they felt inadequate and even questioned whether they were good enough for their dog. They even shared how upset they’d been by strangers in the street telling them what they should be doing.
> 
> There are many threads on training, etc.
> 
> ...


But we have this in all walks of life, unfortunately some people always think they know best without even having a basic understanding so f*ck 'em. Honestly learning not to give a sh*t what strangers think of you would probably be the best life lesson. Why waste time worrying ?

On this forum alot of us are here to learn about our dogs either by asking questions or reading posts from others. In posts I have said that I do understand how some get can upset. But this is more about the person feeling upset & surely now this gives people a chance to discuss why they feel like this .... we should be able to discuss anything & this (IMO) is a perfect opportunity for people to do that.

As I said in a previous post there was a possibility that my dog Kato was going to have to be PTS due to a persistent infection. I was in bits about this as I felt so guilty, that I had completely failed him & it was all my fault. I did my usual of bottling it up & not talking about it. It was only when I was at the vets & broke down that she was able to reassure me & tell me why this was not my fault. I also spoke about it with his breeder who had no idea I felt as I did. Talking about it made me realise it wasn't my fault, I had tried my very best with him but sometimes things don't go as planned.

I have also had to deal with some people (who don't know all the circumstances) tell me what I 'should' have done/be doing which when I was feeling so low was just another knock but now I think 'F*ck them', I do my very best for my dogs & always will. Now I am feeling better about things I honestly don't care about these comments now.

So hopefully if people do feel bad they can discuss it & learn some more techniques or just have people listen to them & realise that are not 'inadequate'


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Lurcherlad said:


> Just what us “inadequate” owners need …to be shown by the more dedicated and successful just how it can/should be done…..





Beth78 said:


> I really do try with whisp and to read that it annoys some people that I can't train my dog to be safely off lead is just upsetting.


Some dogs - due to prey drive or whatever - can never be safely off lead other than in an enclosed space. There's nothing in it about the adequacy of the owner; if anything, the owners that recognise the situation for what it is and keep those dogs on lead are more than adequate. They do what it takes to keep the dogs, other animals and people from being worried (in both senses of the word). Hats off to them. 
I liker lurchers and sighthounds, but could never have one because my physical limitations mean they'd never get enough exercise or stimulation. That's a good reason for me sticking to collie types - they're so easy to train and want to respond. Even with Nell, it looks like I've put loads of effort into training, but in all honesty, I haven't. I got her too soon after losing Kite, and more or less left her to Flossie and Fly to bring up - they did a great job and she copies everything they do. How people with single dogs have to teach everything from scratch, with no canine examples set up, reminds me how hard it was with my first dog.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Dimwit said:


> As an inadequate owner whose dog is currently on lead only, I love seeing your videos - it gives me some hope!
> I know threads like this get emotive but you are a poster who has consistently posted help and support to others. It would be different if you just posted your success videos and sat there smugly telling people that it is easy and they are just not trying hard enough - but you don't.
> You are one of the people on here who consistently tries to help others, by offering advice or posting inks to various books/trainers and even though you often make me feel inadequate because I have nowhere near your dog training skill, I always like to see your comments/videos


Thanks @Dimwit I appreciate your comment. 

Honestly though I'm done. Just seeing the "likes" and further comments solidifies for me that my input is generally not welcome and I'm kind of embarrassed I wasn't self-aware enough to see it sooner. 
I've tried to revive the interest in training, in the tricks thread, in discussions about training... But other than you and a very few others, no one cares. Whether it's because it's me or it's because it's the topic who knows, probably both. And honestly that's fine if you're not obsessed with training, but right now I feel like I walked into a conversation about how annoying I am and how they wish I would just shut up and go away. 

My inbox is open, I enjoy helping where I can, but I have enough dignity to not going to persist where I'm not wanted. And that last part is very clear right now. I can see several members just rubbing their hands in glee and that's not a nice feeling.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> On this forum alot of us are here to learn about our dogs either by asking questions or reading posts from others. In posts I have said that I do understand how some get can upset. But this is more about the person feeling upset & surely now this gives people a chance to discuss why they feel like this .... we should be able to discuss anything & this (IMO) is a perfect opportunity for people to do that.


I have certainly had my moments when things people on here have said have upset me. Usually when I have been struggling and feeling like I am letting my dog down and it is easily to take things personally even if they were not meant that way.

There is also a huge range of people on here with different views and different ways of doing things, and some posters are willing to offer helpful advice, while some prefer not to. Then there are those who just choose to be judgmental. Ultimately, you have to work out whose opinions you care about (if any), and ignore the rest. Every dog is different, and everybody's circumstances are different, but those who do have successes shouldn't have to censor what they post because it might upset someone.



> I have also had to deal with some people (who don't know all the circumstances) tell me what I 'should' have done/be doing which when I was feeling so low was just another knock but now I think 'F*ck them', I do my very best for my dogs & always will. Now I am feeling better about things I honestly don't care about these comments now.
> 
> So hopefully if people do feel bad they can discuss it & learn some more techniques or just have people listen to them & realise that are not 'inadequate'


Been there too. It is always when you are at your lowest that people decide to tell you what you or your dog should be able to do. I know that I am doing the best I can for my dog with the time/money and skills I have. Of course I am very, very, very far from perfect and I spend most of my time on here feeling inadequate when people post about all they do with their dogs and I can barely even get mine to acknowledge my existence when I am walking her. But I learn a lot from people on here and from the trainers I work with and I will do everything I can to get where I want to with Ava's training. If I don't succeed then I will do the best I can to compensate for that.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I think it's shame you feel like that @O2.0, I agree with @Dimwit in that I think you've been very generous posting videos detailing Penny's progress, recalls, etc & am sure lots of people find them very useful. 

I do find it odd that on certain threads about training/behaviour there seems to be little input apart from a few members, years ago this section of the forum would be very active. I suppose it changes tho according to members. Some of us will be obsessed & always striving to learn but some will be content as they are, no one is wrong as we all lead different lives but it does surprise me that this isn't a more active area.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dimwit said:


> I have certainly had my moments when things people on here have said have upset me. Usually when I have been struggling and feeling like I am letting my dog down and it is easily to take things personally even if they were not meant that way.
> 
> There is also a huge range of people on here with different views and different ways of doing things, and some posters are willing to offer helpful advice, while some prefer not to. Then there are those who just choose to be judgmental. Ultimately, you have to work out whose opinions you care about (if any), and ignore the rest. Every dog is different, and everybody's circumstances are different, and what comes easily to some people or dogs, others will struggle with.
> 
> ...


Yep! So many times I feel inadequate but then I give myself a talking to get on with it. It's all learning & whilst sometimes it can be frustrating if we are putting in so much work yet not seeing the results we want. but .. sometimes we need to take a step back, just enjoy our dogs & re-assess our goals. Sometimes our initial goal isn't the one we end up working towards & that's why I love training & learning with my dog.

With Roxy I initially used to think if she had a more experienced owner she would have done so much better, etc . I didn't have the knowledge or skill of others but I was me & I was trying my best. I think I accepted her for the dog she was & just made sure we had fun together.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

rona said:


> Archie is always on lead, even though he's very well trained. He does get his swims off lead though.
> 
> This is why Archie is onlead, even if he gives a little chase, it shows up in his arthritis and old joints later. I'm sure he'd rather be able to walk every day than have one day of excitement and then be confined to barracks for a week.
> Honestly @Rosie64, some old dogs are better off on a lead, well until they have realised they are old. Even Alfie spent a year or so at about 13, mainly on lead..............he wouldn't accept his age and used to go off chasing bunnies and jumping fallen trees


And just to add, that whilst our dogs might not be old, some of their owners are.

Take me for example, I'm 82 and even though I'm fit and healthy I'm not as nimble as I used to be and sometimes find walking difficult particularly on bumpy ground. I have days when I can walk without any problem and others when I can barely hobble along. On those days, the boys are walked on long lines, which depending on how confident I feel, might or might not be allowed to trail.

Nothing to do with the dogs who both have good recalls but everything to do with me and the fear that I might not be able to cope with any untoward situation that might arise. Does it make me feel inadequate as an owner? Yes most definitely especially when reading about all the activities OP do with their dogs which even if I was interested, I'm no longer physically capable of doing.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> Yep!* So many times I feel inadequate but then I give myself a talking to get on with it.* It's all learning & whilst sometimes it can be frustrating if we are putting in so much work yet not seeing the results we want. but .. sometimes we need to take a step back, just enjoy our dogs & re-assess our goals. Sometimes our initial goal isn't the one we end up working towards & that's why I love training & learning with my dog.


I tend to wallow in self-pity for a bit but then I pull myself together. It's the same theme that crops up everywhere - you have to train the dog in front of you. I am naturally pessimistic and so I have a tendency, if something is not working to get frustrated with myself and want to just flounce off and give up. Now, I make myself take a step back and reassess - sometimes you have to abandon your plans and go right back to basics.

I think it was a Susan Garrett podcast I was listening to where she said that if her dog 'fails' then she goes right back to the beginning, adding layers of difficulty until she identifies the part that she didn't spend enough time on. And that really is key, you can either stand in a field getting more and more frustrated because your dog won't come back to you, and try more and more different things, or you can (once you have managed to catch the little angel) go right back to the beginning to work out where you went wrong...


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

I love training whisp and spend alot of effort and time. Although it can be very frustrating. 
But I don't generally post what or how I train as I am not sure I'm even doing it right and although constructive criticism can be useful I'm worried I would have to filter through alot of comments that would get to my over sensitive self.

Although I don't tend to comment on most training threads I do read/watch them and take in information from them.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dimwit said:


> I tend to wallow in self-pity for a bit but then I pull myself together. It's the same theme that crops up everywhere - you have to train the dog in front of you. I am naturally pessimistic and so I have a tendency, if something is not working to get frustrated with myself and want to just flounce off and give up. Now, I make myself take a step back and reassess - sometimes you have to abandon your plans and go right back to basics.
> 
> I think it was a Susan Garrett podcast I was listening to where she said that if her dog 'fails' then she goes right back to the beginning, adding layers of difficulty until she identifies the part that she didn't spend enough time on. And that really is key, you can either stand in a field getting more and more frustrated because your dog won't come back to you, and try more and more different things, or you can (once you have managed to catch the little angel) go right back to the beginning to work out where you went wrong...


Snap! Me too. It's actually been through dog training that I have learnt to be more mindful, be more relaxed, to re-assess & to more forgiving of myself & my mistakes. We were talking at club about how dog training has made us more aware of ourselves & our traits .... good & bad!

I sort of think it's about what really matters. As discussed on another thread my LLW skills are crap & as a result Archer & Marnie didn't walk particularly well whilst Kato naturally did (although not atm!). But then it doesn't really bother me so I've not put that much effort in .. 

But recall & not chasing animals is a no no for me. So because of this I have worked hard with all my dogs on recall especially with wildlife. Although Kato had never ;failed' in this area I knew with him he was more independent & not as to/food orientated so I decided to do something about it before he did (by getting an ecollar). Whilst I accept that on here my tool of choice will not be popular, I use it considerately & as part of my training plan. I adapted my training due to my dog. Some may argue that they have trained plenty of dogs like that without the use of a tool & good for them, but Kato is my dog & this is my choice. I do not feel inadequate for this at all


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> Thanks @Dimwit I appreciate your comment.
> 
> Honestly though I'm done. Just seeing the "likes" and further comments solidifies for me that my input is generally not welcome and I'm kind of embarrassed I wasn't self-aware enough to see it sooner.
> I've tried to revive the interest in training, in the tricks thread, in discussions about training... But other than you and a very few others, no one cares. Whether it's because it's me or it's because it's the topic who knows, probably both. And honestly that's fine if you're not obsessed with training, but right now I feel like I walked into a conversation about how annoying I am and how they wish I would just shut up and go away.
> ...


BUt you ARE wanted, and contribute a lot.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Beth78 said:


> I love training whisp and spend alot of effort and time. Although it can be very frustrating.
> But I don't generally post what or how I train as I am not sure I'm even doing it right and although constructive criticism can be useful I'm worried I would have to filter through alot of comments that would get to my over sensitive self.
> 
> Although I don't tend to comment on most training threads I do read/watch them and take in information from them.


I tend to read them but often don’t join in because we are quite far behind and just focusing on him being happy and relaxed. I feel I have little to add with lots of them.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

@02.2 I think it’s a shame you feel like that. You give good advice always have. 

I think I said early on you kicked a hornets nest with this thread. Obviously people including me have found it a bit of a difficult read but that’s not your problem. I didn’t have to read it lol. 

It would be great to turn this thread around and add some advice for people who are stuck at certain points.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Magyarmum said:


> Nothing to do with the dogs who both have good recalls but everything to do with me and the fear that I might not be able to cope with any untoward situation that might arise. Does it make me feel inadequate as an owner? Yes most definitely especially when reading about all the activities OP do with their dogs which even if I was interested, I'm no longer physically capable of doing.


I am quite sure that you are perfectly adequate from your dogs perspective


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

Beth78 said:


> What methods would you use for my lurcher with dog reactivity and high prey drive I'm always open to suggestions.


Without spending time with you and your dog and seeing where the cracks are, I can't answer that. 
I know I've discussed e-collars and their sensible, humane use and that is certainly an option but it very well many not be one that is appropriate or necessary. Often, working on engagement, eye contact, building value in _you_ as a thing make all the difference. It's super easy to accidentally become a pez dispenser with a dog only interested in your treat pouch and for a highly prey driven dog, food is rarely of much value in the face of something to chase. 
I do a lot of drive building and encourage difficult dogs to want to live for a toy reward but that is also something that should be done with a touch of caution regarding timing as for me _personally_ a dog that can't take it's eyes off it's ball for long enough to even notice it's surroundings is still missing out on getting to be a dog. 

Recall comes down to a few things for me:
• The dog wanting to come back to you every time because it's awesome to do so. This is the most important thing. You are the most exciting thing ever and the bringer of all things excellent.
• Consequence for non-compliance of a known command. Failure to recall isn't safe. I'm comfortable utilising (fair, clear) pressure to ensure that this is understood. 

What any of that looks like as a whole picture is entirely dependant on the dog.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Unfortunately I can't afford to bring in trainers/behaviourist and that is something I do feel guilty about.

When I 1st got whisp I had a steady job but having lost that and prices rising all the time my budget is tiny.

I do read what I can but there is so much conflicting information out there it feels like walking through a maze of mines.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I don’t often say much in training threads and haven’t taken part in them either. I’m on the lazy side, but what I do want from my dogs is a good recall and for them not be a menace to society. Consequently I tend to scroll on by those threads and not bother to even say anything.

I answered in the trick thread about the very few tricks I’ve taught Isla, but they are things for my convenience such as teaching her to go and get my slipper which she dumped somewhere mainly because I don’t want to plod around the house trying to find where she’s left them.

There are a couple of things I would have loved to have done with Isla which was agility and scent work, perhaps some gun dog work and she just loves searching for things. My dodgy knees over the years held me back, then the cancer. I’m just thrilled that I still have my left leg and can walk about on it a bit. That’s where my guilt with Isla lies and I did go through a period where I truly wondered whether Isla would be better off with someone more able to do these things. But I got over it and accepted that this is our life and Isla has fitted in well. There are other things we do with her which probably compensate to a large degree. I don’t let it bother me
I also accepted that my last dog Jodi was not good with other dogs and strangers therefore spent more time on a lead then say Isla does. She still got plenty of nice walks on a flexi lead ( or off if safe to do so) usually in remote areas so no stress for her which I’m sure she preferred.
So do like me, scroll on by😁


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## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> Honestly though I'm done. Just seeing the "likes" and further comments solidifies for me that my input is generally not welcome and I'm kind of embarrassed I wasn't self-aware enough to see it sooner.
> I've tried to revive the interest in training, in the tricks thread, in discussions about training... But other than you and a very few others, no one cares. Whether it's because it's me or it's because it's the topic who knows, probably both. And honestly that's fine if you're not obsessed with training, but right now I feel like I walked into a conversation about how annoying I am and how they wish I would just shut up and go away.
> 
> My inbox is open, I enjoy helping where I can, but I have enough dignity to not going to persist where I'm not wanted. And that last part is very clear right now. I can see several members just rubbing their hands in glee and that's not a nice feeling.


Oh @O2.0 please don't feel that way , I for 1 love to see your videos of little Penny and reading about her progress.
I have learnt so much from you over the years that I have been on this forum , and I think you will find that there are more people on here that feel the same way than those that don't .
I can't say that I don't feel jealous and inadequate at times with the things you are able to do that I can't , but hell I am jealous of quite a few other members and where you all live too . 
In saying that , I also know that , that is *My* problem , I do worry ,feel guilty and do get depressed at my inadequacy's and that also is *My* problem and not caused by anything I see or read on here .
As to the liking of posts I have to admit I am guilty of not doing that as much as I should , I get distracted too quickly and quite often just plain forget to do it , I have often gone back a day or wo later and liked answers to my own posts .
Please do not stop posting about Penny and training as a lot of people would really miss it


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## 1507601 (Jun 26, 2020)

@O2.0 I'm another who appreciates all your posts, videos and advice. I'm sorry you feel how you do and really hope you won't stop posting. 
I have meant to participate in the tricks threads etc but life has gotten in the way recently - for me it's because we moved into this house last year and there's a lot of work to be done along with a developing business. It's not a lack of interest and definitely nothing to do with anyone posting in them.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> Thanks @Dimwit I appreciate your comment.
> 
> Honestly though I'm done. Just seeing the "likes" and further comments solidifies for me that my input is generally not welcome and I'm kind of embarrassed I wasn't self-aware enough to see it sooner.
> I've tried to revive the interest in training, in the tricks thread, in discussions about training... But other than you and a very few others, no one cares. Whether it's because it's me or it's because it's the topic who knows, probably both. And honestly that's fine if you're not obsessed with training, but right now I feel like I walked into a conversation about how annoying I am and how they wish I would just shut up and go away.
> ...


Oh for heavens sake, gets some balls woman, stop attention seeking 

Surely you can see, that if you got upset about comments that weren't even directed at you, then others can feel the same?


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## Canine K9 (Feb 22, 2013)

I don’t think anyone who is a regular poster on PF is an inadequate owner- if you have enough interest in dogs to regularly post on a forum about them, you can’t be that inadequate!

BUT I do understand the self-inflicted pressure. I used to feel inadequate in not being able to drive and take Bailey to loads of lovely, quiet walks and instead having to stick to the same few places, especially when I saw photo threads on here of people’s lovely walks. That certainly didn’t mean the people posting the picture threads were in the wrong! I still enjoyed their posts, but was more a little sad/jealous that wasn’t our reality.

What helped me was talking to ‘regular’ dog owners in my area. The vast majority of them could drive but never put their dog in their car for walks, instead walking them in the woods at the end of my road, sometimes multiple times a day. And their dogs were perfectly happy! I then realised I was being silly!

I guess what I’m trying to say is the PF dogs that are kept on a lead clearly do not have inadequate owners when they are getting flexi/long line walks, swimming, secure field hire, garden play etc. And others who enjoy sharing content of their dogs recalling/training or discussing recall/training shouldn’t feel pressure not to either.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Well I've just started reading when pigs fly by Jane killion as it was recommended on this thread. I will save the other book on my shelf till I've finished this one.
So far so good, it's about mostly reward based training for the more "difficult to train" dogs in our lives and has mentioned shaping which is the way I have taught whisp in the past.
Hopefully it continues to be a good read, I need all the hope I can find with my black beast.


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## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

Canine K9 said:


> I don’t think anyone who is a regular poster on PF is an inadequate owner- if you have enough interest in dogs to regularly post on a forum about them, you can’t be that inadequate!
> 
> BUT I do understand the self-inflicted pressure. I used to feel inadequate in not being able to drive and take Bailey to loads of lovely, quiet walks and instead having to stick to the same few places, especially when I saw photo threads on here of people’s lovely walks. That certainly didn’t mean the people posting the picture threads were in the wrong! I still enjoyed their posts, but was more a little sad/jealous that wasn’t our reality.
> 
> ...


I think we all have some degree of envy where our dogs are concerned anyway. I'd love to be able to take Dan on the train or bus (as you have with Bailey, loved your seaside pics), but am sure it would be too stressful for him (and me) - but we are lucky to have a couple of very nice large country parks with meandering paths, ponds and woodland within 10 minutes drive. We have no secure fields or woods locally, which look amazing. Nor do we have a large garden. But the reality is we have a small dog, small house, small garden, he fits into our lifestyle and we do the best we can for him and he has an abundance of love and pampering! 
I too also enjoy seeing "how the other half live" love the training videos and advice given by more experienced owners and have learned a lot from this forum. I have felt guilty at times that we don't do daily long cross country hikes etc, but we all enjoy the walks we are able to go and I've learned to be content. As there is such an eclectic mix of dog breeds and owners here whose needs will differ hugely that it's quite easy to upset someone without really trying. 
Sorry for the long post.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

I know someone who lives in the most perfect setup for a high energy breed of dog, or any dog, it's very jealous making. I would be thrilled with just having their garden!
...but it's just too much dog for them, and they appear to make no effort, won't ask for help, & so the young, very intelligent, very high energy dog seems to be in a crate basically all the time, because it has soooo many pretty major issues.
Honestly, it would probably be better off being put to sleep, and it makes me feel sick when I think of the life it has, and that it's probably gone mad.

Although it's not done with malice, there is no doubt they are a bad, selfish owner, and should feel very guilty.

I can't think of anyone on this forum who has given up on their dogs, or left them to rot in a crate, or who doesn't give them the best life they possibly can, and who doesn't try and work through or manage their problems.
If the worst you do to your dogs is keep them on a long line or hire a field for them, I don't think you have much to feel guilty or inadequate about 
Just sniffing the food caddy bins on rubbish day has always been a favourite with some of our dogs.
I could always tell the healthy eaters because Danny would ignore their bin 😂

Also, @O2.0 don't you dare go anywhere! You're the reason there's little bits of sausage residue stuck to lots of local trees! 😂


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## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

Gemmaa said:


> You're the reason there's little bits of sausage residue stuck to lots of local trees! 😂


That made me chuckle , what did I miss with the sausage residue on trees , Why ?


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Rosie64 said:


> That made me chuckle , what did I miss with the sausage residue on trees , Why ?


I've been reading "Hunting Together", that @O2.0 recommends, and playing "The Sausage Game" with Charlie, he now sits in front of particular trees, waiting to find the sausage bits that I hide in them ...his favourite trees have little sausage marks left


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## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

Gemmaa said:


> I've been reading "Hunting Together", that @O2.0 recommends, and playing "The Sausage Game" with Charlie, he now sits in front of particular trees, waiting to find the sausage bits that I hide in them ...his favourite trees have little sausage marks left


Oooh ok that sounds interesting and something Shadow may be interested in , Thank you for the info


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Blimey. Im out of this thread except to say a book by David Ryan might help for predatory chase.

“Stop!” How to control predatory chasing in dogs


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Boxer123 said:


> It would be great to turn this thread around and add some advice for people who are stuck at certain points.


I agree but tbh there are loads of posts regarding this type of problem, loads of recommendations for books, courses, trainers, etc but am not sure people really do their homework or take the advice.

If will be really interesting to see if new threads come about because of this topic with people detailing exactly what their problem is & exactly what they have done to try & resolve this. There is no magic cure tho it is about being consitent, thoughtful & setting your dog up for success every time.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> I agree but tbh there are loads of posts regarding this type of problem, loads of recommendations for books, courses, trainers, etc but am not sure people really do their homework or take the advice.
> 
> If will be really interesting to see if new threads come about because of this topic with people detailing exactly what their problem is & exactly what they have done to try & resolve this. There is no magic cure tho it is about being consitent, thoughtful & setting your dog up for success every time.


True I need to get back into the training sessions with Loki. I think our problem is multi because of the reactivity I do worry he might hurt another dog. He never has even when they have run over but occasionally will still go batshit at another dog. Then there’s the prey drive. I’d love to be able to let him off he does like to frolic.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Aaargh I've missed a lot in this thread it seems 🤨
@O2.0 please don't stop posting advice etc. We value and love your insight and seeing how our little swamprat is progressing.



Beth78 said:


> I don't know probably just being over sensitive as usual.
> I really do try with whisp and to read that it annoys some people that I can't train my dog to be safely off lead is just upsetting.


Please don't be upset. With some dogs it's much more complicated than just training recall from distractions. Like with Whisp you have prey drive AND a strong negative emotion towards dogs. So you've got different battles to fight and you need to pick which one you want to focus on rather than fighting a war against everything at the same time! 
Saying that you can use a lot of the same things to help with all 3 issues, but focus on the thing that you think is most important in your (and her) life that would get the best outcome for you overall (does that make sense?)

My issue is laziness. I have my own fields for my dogs to run in safely, so their need to be off lead in other areas isn't the same as for other people. They can still go out and enjoy their walks without me worrying they haven't had enough physical exercise. I could work really hard with Fly to get his recall better, I've no doubt he's capable of having a great recall, but for my situation I just don't need to. He can recall amazingly and super fast, but just not every time or around livestock, or some other dogs. Plus he will put holes in other dogs so it's not worth the worry about that either lol. He is quite happy having a stroll round the park on lead and is great around other dogs when doing this, just not when he's off zooming around. Biting is far too tempting.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Boxer123 said:


> True I need to get back into the training sessions with Loki. I think our problem is multi because of the reactivity I do worry he might hurt another dog. He never has even when they have run over but occasionally will still go batshit at another dog. Then there’s the prey drive. I’d love to be able to let him off he does like to frolic.


Everyone has multi issues tho, this is exactly what I had with Roxy. It took me a while but being consistent, developing a much better relationship, being mindful of her behaviour, giving clear consequences of failures, etc I was able to manage her alot better to the point where she was offlead nearly all the time.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> Everyone has multi issues tho, this is exactly what I had with Roxy. It took me a while but being consistent, developing a much better relationship, being mindful of her behaviour, giving clear consequences of failures, etc I was able to manage her alot better to the point where she was offlead nearly all the time.


Yeah that makes sense. We have a lot of work to do. I would like to get back to 1:1 sessions but they are so expensive. Reactivity is much better that’s a plus. He’s really interactive on walks plays tug and sniffy games.

We were at the field this morning though he spots a lady bogs off and tries to give her his ball through the fence.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Well, how disappointing that some members cannot or will not see this thread for what it is, (or was), a discussion. not a criticism aimed at certain posters.

I haven't contributed here, because I have nothing to contribute, but, I have been following and enjoyed reading it, until now.

None of us are perfect. My dogs know the basics - if a thoughtless person leaves my gate open, they don't go out. Taught to them since they were pups.

If they're running or moving away and I call "wait", they stop immediately.

Can I call Rosie off a chase? No. That doesn't mean I feel resentful or inadequate because someone else could.

Training isn't my 'thing'. 0.20 clearly loves to train and excels at it and that is part of what makes her so valuable and valued on this forum and what makes it so wrong that her well intentioned discussion about a real part of owning a dog has left her feeling alienated and humiliated.

If some are so sensitive that they feel 'got at' because they have not achieved all, then an adult discussion is not the place for them.

This thread is not and never should have been a "hornets' nest", or an opportunity for anyone to make it 'all about them'.

If you're not able to read it without taking it personally, then scroll on by.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> I sort of think it's about what really matters. As discussed on another thread my LLW skills are crap & as a result Archer & Marnie didn't walk particularly well whilst Kato naturally did (although not atm!). But then it doesn't really bother me so I've not put that much effort in ..


We all pick our battles. The trainer at our puppy class freely admitted that while he enjoys the theory of teaching LLW and teaching it to clients he finds it very boring to train his own dogs. Because of where he lives, two of his dogs don’t need to be able to walk nicely so he didn’t bother and only taught his third dog because he knew he was going to be a working gundog.
For me, LLW was my first priority because of the size and strength of Ava when I got her and how extreme her pulling was so for the sake of safety I have worked very hard at it.
Now I am focusing on getting her to a point where she can be off lead.

Different people have different priorities and different methods of training. You know yourself and you certainly know your dogs, so you can use methods that are appropriate and will work with them.
I used to be dead against certain training tools, but the more I learn, the more I see that it is not black and white and that some dogs respond very well to them when used appropriately


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Well said @Rafa


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

@O2.0 Please keep posting your stuff, I love it and have never felt that you were ‘blowing your own trumpet’. That’s a weird English expression, I think. And I’d miss Penny.

I don’t know what the problem is here. Have I missed something?

Everbody ( on here at least) is giving their dog the best life that they can, on or off leash so isn’t that all anybody can do? 

My dog gets let off lead: Great. He also has to stay at home on his own while I go to work to feed us. Not great and I’d rather not do that but it’s the best I can manage. I’m sure he’d rather be with me, and get left alone, than live with somebody else.

My Mum’s little terrier cross never gets let off her long line. She’s a chaser (of anything and everything), and neither of us has the expertise to deal with the sort of focused prey drive that she has. It might not be her absolutely perfect life but she hasn’t been lost, or run over by a car. Other than that she has an amazing time and her every whim is catered for.

Whatever, if anybody is feeling guilty, or touchy, about anything raised in this thread I don’t understand why. We’re all doing the best we can. Dogs live the life we give them.


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## Dog Walker Woman (Dec 6, 2013)

How do you retract a like etc. or emoji in this case.
Seems I have posted a sad emoji and don't know how, was just reading the thread.
In the old forum you could undo a like if a mistake but I can't find how to do it here.
Sorry I didn't mean sad to your post @ Linda Weasel .


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dog Walker Woman said:


> How do you retract a like etc. or emoji in this case.
> Seems I have posted a sad emoji and don't know how, was just reading the thread.
> In the old forum you could undo a like if a mistake but I can't find how to do it here.
> Sorry I didn't mean sad to your post @ Linda Weasel .


Just go back to the 'like' again & select which one you want


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## Dog Walker Woman (Dec 6, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> Just go back to the 'like' again & select which one you want


I tried it here ,put sad face then like and voila 👍
Thanks Cleo


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Dog Walker Woman said:


> How do you retract a like etc. or emoji in this case.
> Seems I have posted a sad emoji and don't know how, was just reading the thread.
> In the old forum you could undo a like if a mistake but I can't find how to do it here.
> Sorry I didn't mean sad to your post @ Linda Weasel .



If you go back onto your post and click on the three dots in the top right hand corner, it will give you the option to edit your post.

You can just edit the emoji out.


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## Dog Walker Woman (Dec 6, 2013)

Rafa said:


> If you go back onto your post and click on the three dots in the top right hand corner, it will give you the option to edit your post.
> 
> You can just edit the emoji out.


That's good to know 
Thank you


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Dog Walker Woman said:


> I tried it here ,put sad face then like and voila 👍
> Thanks Cleo


I read that as 'viola', and thought I'd never seen a viola emoji, and how could you differentiate it from a violin emoji, and what would it all mean..........


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rona said:


> Surely you can see, that if you got upset about comments that weren't even directed at you, then others can feel the same?


I appreciate the effort, but saying a comment that very clearly was directed at me wasn't starts to feel like gas-lighting.
I was the only one who posted videos of my dog recalling and the comment was about those who "show" how it can be done.
BTW, my post included a video of Penny totally blowing a recall, so it wasn't about "showing off" but about showing that even if a dog blows a recall (or 2 or 3 or 4) doesn't mean that don't won't eventually get there. And dogs are not robots which is why I only let Penny off leash where the cost of a mistake isn't deadly (like near roads).



Boxer123 said:


> What would be useful is next steps for a reaction lead dog. He doesn’t chase on the long line, he checks in, at the field he recalls well. Where do you go next ? I took him to a large secure field with a woodland in the middle. First time I let him off his nose hit the ground and he was off into the woods. He’s also reactive so would he go for another dog off lead? I don’t know.





Boxer123 said:


> It would be great to turn this thread around and add some advice for people who are stuck at certain points.


Yeah, that would be nice, I agree.
I've posted about the protocols in "Hunting Together" (Thanks @Gemmaa for the sausage tree chuckle  )
I've posted about a lot of the protocols in "Control Unleashed" particularly reorienting. And like I said I've tried to start threads about training in general. Ironically those get mostly ignored, yet this thread has gone on and on. Which makes it seem like we're more interested in human drama than training dogs doesn't it?

So there's the rub. And how do I, or anyone for that matter, answer how to help your dog improve his recall without it sounding like I'm saying if you only work harder you'd have an off-leash dog?
Or give examples of what I did when my own dog was at that point and how I overcame it without it becoming "showing off" how it can/should be done?
At what point does the effort of typing out a post trying to help someone, making videos and uploading them to give examples, become no longer worth it if you're going to spend the next 17 posts easing hurt human feelings?
(That's all rhetorical BTW, I'm not expecting any answers.)

I'm not upset about this thread anymore, I know the spirit in which I have posted, whether others take it in that spirit is not my business. But I've definitely lost my motivation to post anything. Which makes for an interesting behavioral observation in itself.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

I hope you don't stop posting.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I still have to update Penny's embark results when they come in, you're not completely getting rid of me


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> So there's the rub. And how do I, or anyone for that matter, answer how to help your dog improve his recall without it sounding like I'm saying if you only work harder you'd have an off-leash dog?
> Or give examples of what I did when my own dog was at that point and how I overcame it without it becoming "showing off" how it can/should be done?
> *At what point does the effort of typing out a post trying to help someone, making videos and uploading them to give examples, become no longer worth it if you're going to spend the next 17 posts easing hurt human feelings?*
> 
> I'm not upset about this thread anymore, I know the spirit in which I have posted, whether others take it in that spirit is not my business. But I've definitely lost my motivation to post anything. Which makes for an interesting behavioral observation in itself.


Bolded bit .... I honestly don't think you should have to explain yourself too much, you make your point & that's it. If people feel they are being 'got at' then maybe reassure that wasn't the intention but that really is it. Not being harsh but oif people are being overly sensitive then they really need to ask themselves why.

I thought about this (sort of) when out with Archer & Marnie. I do think that predatory chasing is difficult & I know many very competent people who have this problem with their dogs so don't think it's an easy fix at all but it is manageable & we can all do better with our training.

I train with my dogs every day; formal & informal sessions. I constantly look at what I want to work on, how I can improve, go to different environments,. etc. Even on a walk I am looking at little things to work on informally (getting the dogs to wait, asking for a sit before I throw a ball, recalls, playing, hand touches, etc) , I put alot of work in & consideration. 

Even with Roxy I constantly worked towards her being offlead even tho at some times I never thought this would be possible. It was, she was nearly always offlead on our walks. If people are happy not to work towards this & simply accept their dog then that's fine, I really do get that. Sometimes this might be temporary, with a view to working on things again at some point for some people it might be their ultimate decision for what they think is best. And again that's fine, but for those who do want their dog to be offlead then surely have a plan & work towards your end goal


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> I appreciate the effort, but saying a comment that very clearly was directed at me wasn't starts to feel like gas-lighting.
> I was the only one who posted videos of my dog recalling and the comment was about those who "show" how it can be done.
> BTW, my post included a video of Penny totally blowing a recall, so it wasn't about "showing off" but about showing that even if a dog blows a recall (or 2 or 3 or 4) doesn't mean that don't won't eventually get there. And dogs are not robots which is why I only let Penny off leash where the cost of a mistake isn't deadly (like near roads).
> 
> ...


TBF I think most people didn’t see your post because you removed it I woke up and it was already gone. I explained about 17 pages back what I found difficult about this thread and it wasn’t your video.

Also I’m a sensitive Nelly when it comes to Loki so I really wouldn’t worry if I’m offended ! I literally took him to the vet because he sneezed two days ago. My emotions are very tied into this dog 

Anyway good to see you back.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Do keep posting @O2.0 I would miss you very much. I may not take part in your training vids apart from the odd thing, but I do enjoy reading about them and any links you post as they are always interesting.
Its very easy to get hyper sensitive about something if you have an issue that is always first and foremost in your mind. I was sensitive for along time about Jodi’s antisocial attitude to dogs and people, it helped me a lot when I found out that other dogs from the same breeder were similar, which is when I made the connection about inheritable temperaments. Now I just harp on about making sure a breeder breeds for temperament as well as health.

I enjoy your sense of humour too, you would be greatly missed by most on here.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Siskin said:


> Do keep posting @O2.0 I would miss you very much. I may not take part in your training vids apart from the odd thing, but I do enjoy reading about them and any links you post as they are always interesting.
> Its very easy to get hyper sensitive about something if you have an issue that is always first and foremost in your mind. I was sensitive for along time about Jodi’s antisocial attitude to dogs and people, it helped me a lot when I found out that other dogs from the same breeder were similar, which is when I made the connection about inheritable temperaments. Now I just harp on about making sure a breeder breeds for temperament as well as health.
> 
> I enjoy your sense of humour too, you would be greatly missed by most on here.


Yes, I was similar with Kato & his independence. The breeder created a FB group for the litter (as she does with all so we can chat about the pups progress, etc). It's such a great idea & I love seeing how they grow. But we all had similar 'problems'. Most pups went to the police, one went to S&R & a couple of us were sports/pet homes.
I honestly felt like such a failure with Kato but on discussing with the others in the group all the pups were very similar, very independent, very difficult to motivate, very aloof & quite serious .... completely different to Archer.
I had to change my training alot with Kato & yes, maybe discussions about engagement would have really hit a nerve a year or so ago!! But I worked hard with him, made changes, re-evaluated, etc & made so much progress.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> Yes, I was similar with Kato & his independence. The breeder created a FB group for the litter (as she does with all so we can chat about the pups progress, etc). It's such a great idea & I love seeing how they grow. But we all had similar 'problems'. Most pups went to the police, one went to S&R & a couple of us were sports/pet homes.
> I honestly felt like such a failure with Kato but on discussing with the others in the group all the pups were very similar, very independent, very difficult to motivate, very aloof & quite serious .... completely different to Archer.
> I had to change my training alot with Kato & yes, maybe discussions about engagement would have really hit a nerve a year or so ago!! But I worked hard with him, made changes, re-evaluated, etc & made so much progress.


Lokis brother and sister are very well behaved. There is always one.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

You can learn an awful lot from a ‘difficult’ dog, I did with Jodi. Then when you get a dog who is just a dream to own you can pat yourself on the back as you are now such a good trainer😆


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Siskin said:


> You can learn an awful lot from a ‘difficult’ dog, I did with Jodi. Then when you get a dog who is just a dream to own you can pat yourself on the back as you are now such a good trainer😆



Definitely I’ve learned so much from Loki. Honestly Sox and Lily came ready made I let them of the lead they came back, did have a few incidents of blown recall but overall not much input from me needed. Sox will do anything you ask Loki wants to know what’s in it for him. We do have a laugh though he’s a beautiful little boy.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Siskin said:


> You can learn an awful lot from a ‘difficult’ dog, I did with Jodi. Then when you get a dog who is just a dream to own you can pat yourself on the back as you are now such a good trainer😆


Oh definitely Roxy was the dog who really got me in to dog training. She was very reactive (people/dogs) & loved chasing wildlife. Archer was my first puppy & was a bloody dream after her


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

Just read through this post! I haven’t been around for a while (life happens…) but I would miss your posts @O2.0 if you stopped! 

others have said it, but it’s easy to feel overly sensitive about issues you have with your dog, especially when you work so hard to try and overcome things. If this had been posted a couple of years ago I may have felt a bit sensitive about it as, at that point, I felt Teddy would never be offlead and I did feel like abit of a failure. It took me a while but I eventually realised that it didn’t matter, he has a strong drive, he’s my first dog (not including family dogs), maybe someone else could’ve done it better but he had a fulfilled life and if he had to stay onlead forever (longline) then so be it. And that took so much pressure off me when I finally stopped giving myself a timeline to ‘get him off lead’. 
i still worked at it, everyday, every walk but I didn’t have that frustrating feeling of ‘this is never going to work’ or that envious feeling of seeing others with dogs offlead and thinking ‘why can’t Ted be that good’. I’m no experienced trainer, I just worked at little things, focus, playing games, doing agility class helped so much with his focus. And I guess he matured too. It took 4 years but now he is pretty reliable and I never ever thought I would say that. I still don’t have him off around strange dogs, but we can have a pleasant walk in the woods. 
but I definitely get it’s easy to compare yourself to others and feel inadequate. Thing is, everyone is different, every dog is different and everyone is on their own journey. Don’t feel bad for posting your successes, we should be celebrating each other! And I hope people don’t feel got at for others celebrating their success. It doesn’t make you an inadequate dog owner, you’re on a different journey. Every single person on PF strives to give their dogs a brilliant life, there are so many dog owners out there who don’t do even a quarter of what people do on here for their dogs.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

OH took Isla for an early walk before we set off to Suffolk and met a lady with two greyhounds both rescues which she has had for some time. Because OH met her he did the usual male thing and didn’t ask her about her dogs so I didn’t learn much🙄. They were both off lead in the fields and the younger one ran about a lot with Isla who came back worn to a frazzle as she just couldn’t match the greyhound for sheer speed. I would like to have known how she worked with her dogs to get to the position of being comfortable with them offlead as I know it’s not easy with sighthounds.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I'm reopening this fun can 'o worms because a) I just read The Coddling of the American mind and I'm all about not coddling myself avoiding negative responses, and b) I responded to a thread on here about the perfect puppy course and now _that_ trainer is back in my FB feed and youtube suggested videos like crazy and he was one of the ones who prompted this thread, and c) Penny did really well off leash at the dog beach last weekend which is relevant to this thread as well so 😈

This annoying super popular trainer has a reactivity video out and it just drives me crazy this obsession with stopping the reactivity and not thinking long-term. 
I've always been taught to start with the end in mind. What do you want the end picture to look like? My end goal with Penny was for her to be out of her fearful brain enough to use her thinking brain which in turn actually makes it safer for her. If she can think she can gauge another dog's body language. If she can think she can respond to me. If she can think she can enjoy herself! 

This video I just watched, the guy pops and jerks the dog out of reacting, but then what? What does the dog know how to do? How is the dog able to function without micromanaging on the part of the owner? And maybe most importantly, which brain is the dog using? Has the 'reactivity' just shifted to 'reacting' to the handler instead of other stimuli? Or is there an actual shift out of reactive brain into thinking brain? 
And what happens after you spend all that time using leash corrections to teach the dog not to react, what happens when you take that leash off? What happens to the reactivity then? 

I do know it's stupid easy to stop reactivity with a few good leash pops. Hell I've done it myself. But I also know that if what you're looking for long-term is a dog who is responsive to you, wants to engage with you, and happily comes back to you, even when there is more fun stuff going on, you best put your efforts in to building that. And if you build that kind of relationship with your dog, you won't need the leash pops. 

FWIW, letting a fearful reactive dog be loose around their triggers - if you can do so safely, often does wonders for their reactivity.


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

_I do know it's stupid easy to stop reactivity with a few good leash pops. Hell I've done it myself. But I also know that if what you're looking for long-term is a dog who is responsive to you, wants to engage with you, and happily comes back to you, even when there is more fun stuff going on, you best put your efforts in to building that. And if you build that kind of relationship with your dog, you won't need the leash pops._

FWIW, letting a fearful reactive dog be loose around their triggers - if you can do so safely, often does wonders for their reactivity.
[/QUOTE]
I'm DEEPLY curious as to who you're referring to. Will watching their videos make me want to throw my brain in the bin?

With the reactivity thing, I feel it is so very circumstantial. There are situations where I'll corret for reactivity as I've mentioned before. But if you're going to do this, IMO you had better be able to immediately redirect the dogs brain towards a better state of mind.

I'll chuck a scenario out:
• Dog loses marbles completely at passing cyclist who appeared at astonishing speed and with no warning
• I say NO! in a very firm and disgusted voice a split second before I correct the dog pretty firmly to snap him out of his screaming, spinning, lunging meltdown because I know he continues to escalate and that the longer it goes on for, the harder it is to achieve anything with him afterwards as his brain is total chaos.
• IMMEDIATELY after correcting, I pull a tug toy out of my training jacket and I turn into the most exciting, ridiculous chaotic play thing this dog has ever clapped eyes on. He begins an enthusiastic game of tug. 
• The dog has had a very fair and meaningful learning event which provided clarity. Trying to eat cyclists is extremely against my rules. But the moment you arent being a head case, the fun returns and we can carry on where we briefly left off. 
• Anofher cyclist passes. I can see him loading (this one was less stealthy so we could hear him coming) and the moment I can read that intent to blow up, I give my firm, disgusted NO!, a split second of pressure on his slip lead and that's as far as he goes and as much as I need to give. Again, we immediately play an awesome game. 
• We saw no more bikes that day but the following morning, I managed to find some. 
Dogs reaction to those bikes at this point? Curiosity of the bikes but also he started to offer engagement with me because bikes mean tug games!

No, he was not 'fixed' just yet. He needed to build a decent history of bikes being off limits but also of no interest because I (and after several hand over sessions, his owners) are WAY more exciting.
He has learned that trying to chase bikes kind sucks and he had mostly learned that lesson after just a single correction because it was well times and extremely meaningful. 
He had one more big correction and that was from his owner at one of the hand overs. And I say big very loosely.. it would not have been meaningful enough to have had such an affect had that been the level of his one from me. The one from his dad was mild but still meaningful as it had context he understood). It was the only other physical correction he had in the duration of his training with me. That second time he had tried to blow up at a bike (it's not uncommon for them to try their luck/naturally fall back into old habits once back with their owners. I go through this with a fine toothed comb with people to make sure they know how to prevent regression) and learned that what he had learned with me was now exactly how things would be with his owners. 

I'm of the opinion that if you need to correct, you should do it properly so that you dont have to keep doing it. If you are yanking and cranking the poor dog around, you are clearly not providing any clarity and are simply being unfair. If you're needing to constantly correct for the same thing over and over, you need to sit down and think about what you're doing and why it isn't working.

I differ in opinion to many on here as I personally am absolutely fine with a dog recieving a split second aversive learning event or two if it means he will never perform the behaviour again once that/those moments have been mentally paired with a ton of extremely positive experiences that occurred whe he made a better decision. 
I'd rather give a couple of very firm corrections to a dog to provide much needed clarity than spend months or years dancing around a problem that is having a negative effect on or even downright preventing the sort of lifestyle most of us would like to lead with our dogs.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Duplicate post


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

For some reason I can't quote you @Teddy-dog 

I think it's so complex & dependent on situations as well as dogs. Roxy was very reactive to other dogs & this was based on anxiety initially so we worked alot of changing her state of mind & getting her to relax, etc. But over time we seemed unable to progress past a certain level & she would become fixated & not look at me at all. So we decided to use a bottle of stones as a startle when she looked at the other dog (in a set up), when she then looked at me I would reward gher with her fave food & lots of praise. It worked a treat & completely gave me a situation where we could now progress & we quickly did.

I would not have done that initially as it wouldn't have worked & would have had the opposite effect but at that stage it was perfect.

My youngest GSD Marnie is quite dog reactive (as are the other females in the litter) & we have worked on this without corrections as she is young & still learning how to behave. She's made huge progress recently but I need to work on this in other environments. I would have no problem correcting her if I felt this would be the right thing to do, I also believe that sometimes this makes things clear to the dog what is & what isn't acceptable but atm it's not.

She doesn't mix with other dogs outside the home yet so it;s not an issue for me. She's offlead all the time & her recall is great We train over a local park with other dogs around (she is offlead) but she is focussed & engaged with me so has no reason to run over to them. She know when we are training & when she is 'free' but even then she wouldn't

Ive seen dogs for who a couple of good corrections worked wonders & then I've seen dogs who are constantly being corrected & yet the behaviour is still the same. Like everything in dog training it depends so much on the hanlder & how skilled they are at reading the dogs, assessing the situation, etc.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Honestly my lot are never off lead anymore! We just do mostly pavement walks with the odd bit of grassy area as well.
The oldest 2 are 13 and 14 and TBH I think the walking time to and from an open area and then running about would be too much for them (I cant just chuck them in a car either).
Alfie is very reactive and would be a nightmare off lead (he def would run up to another dog and bite them as he has slipped his lead before and done just that!). Im not sure he'd like off lead anyways. Ive tried him on a long line before and it just made him more nervous and stick to me closer. In fact if he does get unsure on a walk he will walk around to the other side of me which shortens the lead and he can feel it tugging which I think is a security thing for him.

Im sure in a perfect world with perfect dogs (where nobody needed to work and we were all rich of course!) they would be off lead all the time in beautiful countryside but I think as long as they are getting their needs met somehow then an on lead life isnt the end of the world.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Katalyst said:


> _I do know it's stupid easy to stop reactivity with a few good leash pops. Hell I've done it myself. But I also know that if what you're looking for long-term is a dog who is responsive to you, wants to engage with you, and happily comes back to you, even when there is more fun stuff going on, you best put your efforts in to building that. And if you build that kind of relationship with your dog, you won't need the leash pops._
> 
> FWIW, letting a fearful reactive dog be loose around their triggers - if you can do so safely, often does wonders for their reactivity.



I differ in opinion to many on here as I personally am absolutely fine with a dog recieving a split second aversive learning event or two if it means he will never perform the behaviour again once that/those moments have been mentally paired with a ton of extremely positive experiences that occurred whe he made a better decision.
I'd rather give a couple of very firm corrections to a dog to provide much needed clarity than spend months or years dancing around a problem that is having a negative effect on or even downright preventing the sort of lifestyle most of us would like to lead with our dogs.
[/QUOTE]

I agree 100 percent. What is the point of spending months fiddling about with a dog that is hurling itself on the end of the lead when a couple of corrections can stop it happening. If you keep having to correct then either you are doing it wrong or it is not going to work on that particular dog. And of course there is praise or game or whatever as soon as the dog responds. I took on a dog once who had been kennelled and allowed to pull on the lead. I wanted to walk him with my other dogs so I put them on one side of me and him on the other to start with. He was quite a sensitive soul so a correction for him was just a tweak. Within a few days he was walking on a loose lead. Same with children, have your boundaries and insist on them, not fiddling around with them having no idea what is wanted. You do have to be able to read your dog though and get your timing right and as so many people do not have a clue it doesnt work for them. My two are completely different in the way I have to handle them and when I took classes there was no one method fits all even in a big class.

Not sure what has happened to this post, I was quoting Cleo I thought.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Blitz said:


> I agree 100 percent. What is the point of spending months fiddling about with a dog that is hurling itself on the end of the lead when a couple of corrections can stop it happening. If you keep having to correct then either you are doing it wrong or it is not going to work on that particular dog. And of course there is praise or game or whatever as soon as the dog responds. I took on a dog once who had been kennelled and allowed to pull on the lead. I wanted to walk him with my other dogs so I put them on one side of me and him on the other to start with. He was quite a sensitive soul so a correction for him was just a tweak. Within a few days he was walking on a loose lead. Same with children, have your boundaries and insist on them, not fiddling around with them having no idea what is wanted. You do have to be able to read your dog though and get your timing right and as so many people do not have a clue it doesnt work for them. My two are completely different in the way I have to handle them and when I took classes there was no one method fits all even in a big class.
> 
> Not sure what has happened to this post, I was quoting Cleo I thought.


Yes, I had problems with the quote option as well.

I think it's consistency as well. Many people aren't & will let things go, with some dogs & with some behaviours it might be fine but with others not but often they end up confusing the dog. I spoke to a man the other day who was telling me about his recall problems as he was calling his dog & it ran around completely ignoring him. The dog then ran up to another dog & it's owner. They were fine with this so the two dogs ended up playing & having a lovely time but what did it teach the dog? Ignore the owner & you get to have a great time anyway. He couldn't be bothered to go & get his dog so just stood there & watched but couldn't understand when I told him that no way would I have allowed that.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> This annoying super popular trainer has a reactivity video out and it just drives me crazy this obsession with stopping the reactivity and not thinking long-term.
> I've always been taught to start with the end in mind. What do you want the end picture to look like? My end goal with Penny was for her to be out of her fearful brain enough to use her thinking brain which in turn actually makes it safer for her. If she can think she can gauge another dog's body language. If she can think she can respond to me. If she can think she can enjoy herself!


Exactly this. When you stop focussing on one behaviour and start thinking about what skills your dog needs to build in order for them to do it, everything becomes much clearer for dog and human. 
For Ava, she needs to learn to disengage from her environment and be able to bring her arousal level down and to think in arousal. Otherwise anything I do to 'correct' her is only ever going to be a temporary solution/lead to other unwanted behaviours because currently she doesn't have the skills to react appropriately in certain situations.




Cleo38 said:


> I think it's so complex & dependent on situations as well as dogs. Roxy was very reactive to other dogs & this was based on anxiety initially so we worked alot of changing her state of mind & getting her to relax, etc. But over time we seemed unable to progress past a certain level & she would become fixated & not look at me at all. So we decided to use a bottle of stones as a startle when she looked at the other dog (in a set up), when she then looked at me I would reward gher with her fave food & lots of praise. It worked a treat & completely gave me a situation where we could now progress & we quickly did.
> 
> I would not have done that initially as it wouldn't have worked & would have had the opposite effect but at that stage it was perfect.


Did you ever hear Sian's story of the study in Lincoln where they monitored 'reactive' dogs and found one dog whose owner had done lots of work on their reactivity but they still reacted (I think lunging and barking) to other dogs. But they found no physiological fear response in this dog (although they had initially been very fearful) and realised that even though the emotion was no longer driving the behavior, the dog had learnt that this was how he responded to other dogs.

Ava can be a bit reactive to other dogs, I think mainly from frustration that she can't get to them, but she is also lacking in confidence and she very quickly gets above threshold to the point where she can't think or make good decisions, so just shouts.
I know from what's driving the behaviour and from her background that correcting her on these occasions is counter-productive. But she is also very attention-seeking and will often try to use environmental triggers as an excuse to react and get a response from me. Again, physical correction is not an option but in those cases rather than reassure her and redirect her to food or a toy as I would with a fear reaction, I have to just take away her access to me (by moving into a different room/shutting her into a different room).


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

As an elderly person who is almost incapable of running or walking fast, it's absolutely essential the Schnauzer boys have excellent recall skills. It's something we practice all the time in all kinds of situations.

Last Sunday we took a walk in the forest with lots of smells that are irresistible to Schnauzers, followed by having lunch in quite a busy picnic area No dogs but several young children and hikers milling around. Only once did we have to go and get Grisha who was busy following a scent. Gwylim bless him came back every time he was called, although he did bark at a young lady who was obviously scared of dogs.

My strange little Gwylim who can be reactive towards dogs when on a lead, mixes quite happily with dogs of all sizes when off lead .... go figure! Grisha who used to be the reactive one when he was younger has grown up to be virtually bomb proof!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Dimwit said:


> Exactly this. When you stop focussing on one behaviour and start thinking about what skills your dog needs to build in order for them to do it, everything becomes much clearer for dog and human.


Oh thank you, you said so much better than I did basically what I'm trying to get at. Trainers who focus on stopping behavior rather than focusing on building the dog's skills and of course the dog/handler relationship.
Not that there is anything wrong with saying "no, you're not going to be a screaming potato" which I have no problem with, but this obsession with the one behavior instead of looking at the bigger picture.

I guess I'm going to have to show what I'm talking about huh?





I know people are going to freak out about the prong, personally that part doesn't bother me, this guy uses a slip lead on a long line and frankly I'm happier if he's using a prong, but anyway....
The point is, this is actually a really lovely dog, interested in people, good drive clearly, and instead of using those traits to his advantage, it's all about leash pops and walking like an automatron at his side. And hello? Sniffing is a great thing for an over aroused dog to do, why is it good that he's sniffing less? It's all just really frustrating.

How this relates to off-leash skills, well, if instead of leash pops they had worked on default attention, reorienting, offered engagement, and building a drive and desire to work with the handler, not only does the 'reactivity' improve, but you build a really good foundation for off-leash reliability.



Magyarmum said:


> Grisha who used to be the reactive one when he was younger has grown up to be virtually bomb proof!


Yes, I think a lot of dogs are just stupid teens and go through a reactive phase, if you deal with it effectively they'll be fine 


ETA:
Penny went from this:




To this: 




In about 6 months. 

And I know some people think 6 months is too long, but really, it's nothing. When you think you're going to have a dog for a good 12 to 15 years, 6months investment in building skills and a relationship is nothing. 
Plus some of it is just plain old maturing and getting to the point mentally of being able to focus and exert self-control. 
With dogs who have had less than ideal starts, it takes that long (or longer) to re-wire the brain. Brain plasticity is real, but it doesn't happen overnight. it takes time and practice.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> Oh thank you, you said so much better than I did basically what I'm trying to get at. Trainers who focus on stopping behavior rather than focusing on building the dog's skills and of course the dog/handler relationship.
> Not that there is anything wrong with saying "no, you're not going to be a screaming potato" which I have no problem with, but this obsession with the one behavior instead of looking at the bigger picture.
> 
> I guess I'm going to have to show what I'm talking about huh?


Ugh, the thing is, you start off agreeing with him that the dog does need to bring down the arousal level, but then he goes into 'corrections'. Sadly though it is typical of today's instant gratification culture. If someone has a problem with their dog, they want a quick fix. Not to be told that they will have to go back to basics and teach their dog to manage its arousal, to learn to think in arousal and to build up a relationship with their owner so that they have some incentive to stay with them...


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

@O2.0 Oh HIM...
I'll be honest, I havent watched the full video. It starts fine IMO. Then it just turned into a bit of an exercise in Khoeler Cranking with the dog recieving no positive feed back for good decisions/doing what was wanted.🥴
Maybe I just didnt watch far enough but I've watch a number of his videos over the last year or so. 

I'd also like to clarify the comment I made earlier about "dancing around a problem for months or even years". 
I dont expect to be able to magic away all behaviour issues in a few weeks. Hell, Kobrin still has the odd moment of stupidity every now and then and I've no doubt will continue to do so until he is out of the 'Kevin' stage. He is a teenage GSD from actual working lines. I'd have been kidding myself if I thought I wouldn't see some reactive tendencies from him in certain situations. 
What I meant was that there is no sense to me in continuing to dance around a problem for months and months at a time if what you are currently doing isn't making notable progress. 
If you are seeing real, tangible progress, you're not dancing around anything - you're fixing it.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

TBH I have no problem with the fact that I probably wont ever fix Alfies reactivity issue and have him off lead.
Maybe in an ideal world we could work constantly with stooge dogs on training and never meet other reactive dogs on walks (which happens at least once every walk) but sadly that isnt life. Im happy to just manage the behaviour and as I know its fear related I dont want to force him into any kind of confrontation that is just going to scare him and make him more aggressive.
The only time he has been calm around other dogs was at the vet! With a waiting room full of other dogs I had to pick him up and he was totally calm but it was obvious that he couldnt cope and had just completely shut down (I see this alot with dodgy celebrity trainers where they claim to have stopped a behaviour and you can see the dog has just mentally 'left the building' instead!).
He has gotten better over the years though with reaction times being shorter and is able to walk past calm dogs across the street without barking. But he is a very sweet boy and just wants love and cuddles all the time so he has his good side!  

Im just really glad he was my 4th dog and not my 1st. At least I now know that it isnt me that made him that way and I can train and own a 'normal' dog!LOL


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> And I know some people think 6 months is too long, but really, it's nothing. When you think you're going to have a dog for a good 12 to 15 years, 6months investment in building skills and a relationship is nothing.
> Plus some of it is just plain old maturing and getting to the point mentally of being able to focus and exert self-control.
> With dogs who have had less than ideal starts, it takes that long (or longer) to re-wire the brain. Brain plasticity is real, but it doesn't happen overnight. it takes time and practice.


Yes! My breeder has got one of Marnie's sisters back due to dog aggression. She had gone to the police but was currently with one of their puppy walkers (rather than a dog handler) but the woman feels that it's too much. I honestly think she is just similar to Marnie & very gobby but with maturing this will become less so. I've already seen it with Marnie & how much she has progressed with controlled exposure, maturity & trust in me. It is a shame that she hasn't been given more time as they really are an awesome litter.

This clip form Michael Ellis is spot on IMO


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

O2.0 said:


> Oh thank you, you said so much better than I did basically what I'm trying to get at. Trainers who focus on stopping behavior rather than focusing on building the dog's skills and of course the dog/handler relationship.
> Not that there is anything wrong with saying "no, you're not going to be a screaming potato" which I have no problem with, but this obsession with the one behavior instead of looking at the bigger picture.
> 
> I guess I'm going to have to show what I'm talking about huh?
> ...


I don't think Grisha was reactive in the accepted sense of the word. His problem was that until I adopted him at a year old, he'd spent all his life in the countryside and had no experience of things like traffic, bicycles or lots of people. Once he got used to a more "towny" lifestyle he was fine!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

You just gotta love ME  
His point about building value in the handler and then using that to be around scary things without directly interacting with those scary things, love love love that! Because that is really what works best. Once you as the handler become that "safe" home base for the dog, it makes everything so much easier. 

And that's where it gets confusing understanding how very different the guy I posted is from what someone like Michael Ellis is doing. On the surface, they look similar in how they're dealing with the dogs, but the Atherton guy doesn't understand engagement at all. Engagement is "I'm excited to work for what you are offering me so I'm going to keep an eye on you in case that opportunity happens" not "I'm going to keep an eye on you because you're a little sketchy and unpredictable and I need to be ready to deal with the weirdness you dish out."


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> You just gotta love ME
> His point about building value in the handler and then using that to be around scary things without directly interacting with those scary things, love love love that! Because that is really what works best. Once you as the handler become that "safe" home base for the dog, it makes everything so much easier.
> 
> And that's where it gets confusing understanding how very different the guy I posted is from what someone like Michael Ellis is doing. On the surface, they look similar in how they're dealing with the dogs, but the Atherton guy doesn't understand engagement at all. Engagement is "I'm excited to work for what you are offering me so I'm going to keep an eye on you in case that opportunity happens" not "I'm going to keep an eye on you because you're a little sketchy and unpredictable and I need to be ready to deal with the weirdness you dish out."


Yes! God I hate watching sh*tty training videos & whilst that Atherton bloke is not the worst I have seen at all it is so sloppy. At no time does the dog get any information as to what he is supposed to be doing just a yank on a collar. Just p*ss poor & unfair


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> Yes! God I hate watching sh*tty training videos & whilst that Atherton bloke is not the worst I have seen at all it is so sloppy. At no time does the dog get any information as to what he is supposed to be doing just a yank on a collar. Just p*ss poor & unfair


It really is unfair on the dog. There's a guy I see in my village walking a very nice Labrador puppy, on a slip lead of course because, you know, gundog  
At every step he is giving this poor dog a 'correction' and the dog isn't even really doing anything wrong, and vertainly doesn't know why it is being yanked in the throat constantly. He used to sneer at me 'walking' Ava (basically Ava dragging me along while screaming like a banshee) so I was very smug when the stars lined up a couple of weeks ago and we walked past him with her walking beautifully on a nice, loose lead. He looked utterly gobsmacked and she got so many treats she didn't know what had hit her


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Dimwit said:


> so I was very smug when the stars lined up a couple of weeks ago and we walked past him with her walking beautifully on a nice, loose lead.


Oh don't you love it when that happens?!  

I managed to both lose Penny to a turtle and then regain her focus fairly quickly which is huge for her because turtles are her life's obsession. No one saw it though LOL.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

This is a good article, albeit a little over simplified on how to work on predatory chasing:








Dogs Who Chase - What Can We Do To Help Them? - Aggressive Dog


But what would happen if we let our dogs embrace their natural desire to chase and hunt? Wouldn’t it be amazing if we could use this feeling of pleasure, fulfillment, and motivation that our dogs find in predation for our training and to help intensify the relationship we share with them?




aggressivedog.com


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Great blog by Sarah Stremming regarding off lead time for different dogs:

Yes, your dog needs off leash time. | The Cognitive Canine


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> Great blog by Sarah Stremming regarding off lead time for different dogs:
> 
> Yes, your dog needs off leash time. | The Cognitive Canine


What a well done article. I admit I had a giggle at this part: "If your dog has running contacts, killer weave pole entries, and a glorious indication on odor, but can’t be walked off leash, I’d argue you might think about how you allocate your training hours." Because I know a fair few people for whom this applies pretty accurately! Clearly you can train a dog, train for off-leash reliability! 

It's one of those things that we know intuitively - less restriction and time in nature is vital to our dogs. (I also like her point that it's about restriction, not exercise.) But yeah, on some level we all know this, but we rationalize and justify in our minds why we don't provide it for our dogs. 

On a side note, about access to natural spaces being white privilege, in the area I live, in the rural south, it's more common for anyone with less financial privilege to live outside the city limits where they don't have to pay city taxes which can make a big difference if you're just getting by financially. And financial means here in the south does not care about your skin color. Poor is poor, and poor people live further outside civilization because it's cheaper. Their dogs get to free roam (which is its own argument). But I don't like perpetuating this myth that poor is an urban thing or a skin color thing. Or that people of color are less able in general to take proper care of a dog. 
I know that's not the point of the article, but that little tidbit annoyed me in what was otherwise great information.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> Great blog by Sarah Stremming regarding off lead time for different dogs:
> 
> Yes, your dog needs off leash time. | The Cognitive Canine


Love this. I am always working hard to get Ava reliable off lead, but in the meantime make sure she gets time in enclosed fields. She is hardwired to hunt and while she is happy-ish on a long line (as long as she has lots of cover to sniff about in, she really loves the freedom of being off lead.
I really like how she makes the point that just because off lead time may not be accessible doesn't mean it is not efficacious. I was told not to take Ava to enclosed fields because she would just rehearse running away from me, but why would I deprive her of that freedom? My sister and I took Ava and Penny (sister's puppy) to a secure field at the weekend. Penny is a 4 month-old lab so obviously she wouldn't go more than a few metres away from her source of food, but watching Ava run is just awesome. She had a brilliant time, and so did I just watching her run and hunt...


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

Beth78 said:


> Never, unless we're in an enclosed field/woods (once a week).
> Whisp has a very high prey drive and I don't trust her with unknown dogs.
> 
> I use an 8 meter flexi lead so she can trot to and fro and she's perfectly happy with that.
> And in the enclosed places she can run and do what she likes.


I would never let Elsa or Dexter off lead. Not unless we are in a private fields. I could n't trust them with other dogs. When I first started talking Elsa over the park, when I first got her she was a nightmare with all dogs. I could see the look on the other dog walkers face has she started biting them. I would not want them to hurt or even kill any animals. Not even squirrels.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> What a well done article. I admit I had a giggle at this part: "If your dog has running contacts, killer weave pole entries, and a glorious indication on odor, but can’t be walked off leash, I’d argue you might think about how you allocate your training hours." Because I know a fair few people for whom this applies pretty accurately! Clearly you can train a dog, train for off-leash reliability!
> 
> It's one of those things that we know intuitively - less restriction and time in nature is vital to our dogs. (I also like her point that it's about restriction, not exercise.) But yeah, on some level we all know this, but we rationalize and justify in our minds why we don't provide it for our dogs.
> 
> ...


Yes, I was going to mention the 'white privilege' thing as I also don't think it's that easy to define regarding wealth, etc but I think in some ways she did make me think about certain aspects regarding an activity that I think has different worries for different people. I think the whole privilege thing is so complicated & think this might have been a bit of a clumsy way to try to highlight it

But yes, I think the references to sports is very relevant as too many people will concentrate on something that earns them titles or rosettes yet not take the time to train more important behaviours.

Having said that if you saw my dogs when they are on the lead then this could also apply to me!!!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

An interesting article. I am lucky (as are quite a few of us on this thread) to have access to a lot of open space. I take the point some people don’t have that. Loki definitely needs off lead time.

It’s interesting what she said about the long line. He loves his sniffy long line walks/runs but he knows he’s on a long line and behaves differently, he doesn’t pull or strain and stays within the confines of the lead. When he’s off lead in secure fields/ woodland he goes like the clapper.

We are fortunate we have a choice of fields many off 30 min run around a for a few pounds so we go most mornings then have a long line /training walk at lunch.

Without off lead time Loki does laps of the house.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Penny's walk this morning was in the dark on a long line. She stays right at my heels mostly when the coyotes are singing and they were this morning. She's no dummy! 
This afternoon she came to XC practice, also on a long line and loose but still restricted to a certain area. We then came home and I took her on a short walk in the woods totally off leash with no restrictions. 

I think all 3 are good for her. The morning walk to get out, sniff the sniffs, have our morning time together. The XC is good for her because it gives her a sense of purpose in a way, and the loose woods walk is her blow off steam time.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Boxer123 said:


> An interesting article. I am lucky (as are quite a few of us on this thread) to have access to a lot of open space. I take the point some people don’t have that. Loki definitely needs off lead time.
> 
> It’s interesting what she said about the long line. He loves his sniffy long line walks/runs but he knows he’s on a long line and behaves differently, he doesn’t pull or strain and stays within the confines of the lead. When he’s off lead in secure fields/ woodland he goes like the clapper.
> 
> ...



I wonder how many problems might be caused because some dogs aren't able to do this. I do understand that off lead times for some dogs just aren't possible because of their behaviour (I had such a dog at one time!). And I get that some owners are much more considerate of this than others by trying to meet needs in other ways. I also do appreciate that I am lucky on that i live somewhere I have access to areas where my dogs can be offlead (although this was mainly why I loved here!) & I can afford to hire a field where they can run freely & some people just cant do this.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> I wonder how many problems might be caused because some dogs aren't able to do this. I do understand that off lead times for some dogs just aren't possible because of their behaviour (I had such a dog at one time!). And I get that some owners are much more considerate of this than others by trying to meet needs in other ways. I also do appreciate that I am lucky on that i live somewhere I have access to areas where my dogs can be offlead (although this was mainly why I loved here!) & I can afford to hire a field where they can run freely & some people just cant do this.


Loki would definitely be more difficult at home. He also enjoys his sniffy walks when I hurt my back and could only take them to fields he was desperate to go and explore the new village when I took him for a pee break. He walks beautifully on his long line and lead but I think without regular burning the energy this would look different. I am very lucky the selection of secure places we have in such close proximity and to have the money to use.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> I wonder how many problems might be caused because some dogs aren't able to do this.


A lot...
One of my neighbors up the road has recently acquired a rehome/rescue English Setter who is a lovely dog, I know because she shows up at our house when she escapes the neighbor's yard. 
This dog's life is constant restrictions. Inside the house she is held back by baby gates and doors. She can see what she wants, her people, toys, the cat, but she can't get to them. Outside she has the fence holding her back, on walks she's leashed because she has no recall. So periodically she figures out ways to escape (or waits for someone to not be watching the gate closely) and takes herself off on a walkabout. She roams and explores and won't come until she is done. Which can be hours. Once she is fulfilled in her need to be loose, then she comes back to whichever house she finds herself at and asks to come inside. 

IOW, she is happy to be an inside, pet dog, as long as she gets time to also be a hunting dog. 
And that ties in to instinctual drives and how you handle them, allow the dog to fulfill them (or not). 
I did make a video about it this summer and never posted it. Might as well do that here...


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> A lot...
> One of my neighbors up the road has recently acquired a rehome/rescue English Setter who is a lovely dog, I know because she shows up at our house when she escapes the neighbor's yard.
> This dog's life is constant restrictions. Inside the house she is held back by baby gates and doors. She can see what she wants, her people, toys, the cat, but she can't get to them. Outside she has the fence holding her back, on walks she's leashed because she has no recall. So periodically she figures out ways to escape (or waits for someone to not be watching the gate closely) and takes herself off on a walkabout. She roams and explores and won't come until she is done. Which can be hours. Once she is fulfilled in her need to be loose, then she comes back to whichever house she finds herself at and asks to come inside.
> 
> ...


That's a great video! As we've discussed previously I am more the first school of thought as in not letting my dogs chase at all. For my dogs I honestly don't think this is a 'need' that needs fulfilling (as they have so many other outlets) & I also do not want them to think that is more exciting than being with me .... as what used to happen with Roxy!

As I've posted before Kato was a very environmentally aware dog who would be fascinated by the birds coming in (we have large numbers of swans migrating to this area in the winter), mole hills, long grass, etc so I would become involved in that & we would dig together, run through long, grass & make it fun rather than trying to battle against it.

I agree that putting so many restrictions on just makes things more of a battle & the emotions (of the dog) will need an outlet.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> I agree that putting so many restrictions on just makes things more of a battle & the emotions (of the dog) will need an outlet.


Those innate drives and dogs' need to fulfill them are so underestimated. This is intertwining with the Canine Paradigm podcast on poisoning rewards and it's all a big thought in my head right now!

That's why I mentioned creating conflict in that video, or avoiding creating that conflict, because that can really poison your rewards and hurt your relationship with the dog.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rottieboys said:


> I would never let Elsa or Dexter off lead. Not unless we are in a private fields. I could n't trust them with other dogs. When I first started talking Elsa over the park, when I first got her she was a nightmare with all dogs. I could see the look on the other dog walkers face has she started biting them. I would not want them to hurt or even kill any animals. Not even squirrels.


Dogs are predators, granted, some are not very good predators and if it weren't for scavenging would likely starve if left to their own devices, but it is what they are. 

Penny is my first dog who (that I know of) hasn't killed anything - yet. I don't doubt that if she were to get a hold of a mouse or vole it would die. 
Every other dog I've owned has killed something at some point. 
Is that weird? 
Or is it simply a function of the kinds of dogs we end up with and where we live? 

I certainly can't imagine never giving them any freedom just in case they acted like the predators that they are....


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> Dogs are predators, granted, some are not very good predators and if it weren't for scavenging would likely starve if left to their own devices, but it is what they are.
> 
> Penny is my first dog who (that I know of) hasn't killed anything - yet. I don't doubt that if she were to get a hold of a mouse or vole it would die.
> Every other dog I've owned has killed something at some point.
> ...


I think there is a difference tho, keeping the dog leashed because you know you have little control over your dog in certain environments is sensible & considerate decision. I remember a while back someone on here said they didn't let their dogs have free reign in their own garden because they 'might' attack a neighbours cat who occasionally came in to the garden. Apologies if the member is still on here, its not meant as a criticism as I know we all treat our dogs differently but for me my garden is for my dogs & as much as I would be devastated if they hurt another animal I would not curtail their freedom because of this.

Roxy was the only dog that killed anything (although Archer, Kato & Marnie do have plenty of time to prove me wrong!). A flock of young pheasants came in to the garden & she got 2 of them, it was very quick & her & Toby had one each for their dinner that night so no waste. She also inadvertently killed 2 chicks. One of my chickens who I though had disappeared suddenly appeared in the garden with 4 beautiful babies. They were so tiny & Roxy went running over to see them, she was great with the chooks but unfortunately was a big clumsy oaf & accidentally trod on 2 of them. Killed them instantly .... it was awful but she didn't mean to. I managed to get the remaining 2 & the mum back in to the coop unharmed.

George (my badass one eyed ginger moggie) was far more destructive than any of the dogs. He actually killed & ate 2 of my chickens, he tried to take on a swan on the river bank outside my house, he terrorised a young fox who got in to my garden, he used to take young pigeons from their nest & eat them, he bought home a dead hamster once (no idea how he got this), he also killed several young pheasants.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Speaking of chasing the boxers have been remarkably well behaved with the pheasants. 

Loki has caught several critters in the past and always lets them go. Ran around the garden with a pigeon in his mouth then let it go it was fine. He loves the chase. Best day ever when a bunny got in the secure field. Sox bless him has never caught anything.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> I think there is a difference tho, keeping the dog leashed because you know you have little control over your dog in certain environments is sensible & considerate decision.


I've never purposefully let my dogs kill something, well no, I lie. On more than one occasion one of the cats will be "playing" with their prey that they're going to eventually kill and I've asked Bates to go out there and finish the job quickly.
But in general, I don't set the dogs out to go kill on purpose. They live in the woods, there are critters in the woods, thus is life. 

Was it on here that I was saying that Mother Nature calls the shots despite how we may think we have some sort of control? Pretty much that. 
My dogs have always had good verbal control - they have to out here, but at the end of the day Mother Nature has her ideas about life and death and sometimes, no matter how careful you are, the dogs are going to find something.

I don't see a dog who would kill a critter if they caught it as a dangerous dog that needs to be restrained to a leash the rest of their life. Hell, Bates killed 2 animals while on a leash, a kamikaze bunny ran across the path we were on and Bates just reached down and grabbed it. He was efficient and by the time my brain computed what had happened and I said "drop" (which he did) the bunny was dead. (Like @Cleo38 that ended up being dinner so no waste.) On another occasion we were out jogging and Bates stuck his head in a clump of grass, shook once and the juvenile skunk was dead. Bates never broke stride. 

We live in an area that has all sorts of natural predators. A dog is a clumsy predator in comparison to the coyotes, bears, bobcats and BOP we have.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> Dogs are predators, granted, some are not very good predators and if it weren't for scavenging would likely starve if left to their own devices, but it is what they are.
> 
> Penny is my first dog who (that I know of) hasn't killed anything - yet. I don't doubt that if she were to get a hold of a mouse or vole it would die.
> Every other dog I've owned has killed something at some point.
> ...


Yup. Most of my dogs have killed something. Our old terrier was an efficient ratter, to the point where he'd sit watching the summer house, waiting for the rat to get just far out enough that he knew he could get it, then swiftly dispatch it in one movement. He also killed a fox cub that had wandered into our garden, a baby crow which had fallen out of the nest (he was then the crow's nemesis for a month or so being shouted at by the whole lot whenever they saw him), a chicken or 2 (they were free range and sometimes his instincts just got the better of him). He'd take himself off rabbiting round our fields, and would take on foxes and badgers. I don't think our old spaniel x killed anything, she was a complete softy. I remember finding a dying rabbit and showed her, and she just looked at it like 'what?' 
Fly has killed a few things including rabbits (they have to be pretty slow or stupid though as they turn faster than him!), a ferret that appeared in our garden (that didn't half stink), and a chicken when it stupidly got out of the pen (no longer free range as the fox was picking them off). Nooka has had the odd bunny, but she's more cat like, and hunts small rodents by pouncing on them then playing with them. Bronte hasn't had anything yet thankfully!
I don't begrudge them killing the odd thing, they are predators. It's not like they are free roaming cats taking out the native (and migratory) bird population. I remember our neighbour talked about her cat plucking a swallow out of the air...I wasn't very impressed I'm afraid.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

I've not read the whole thread and have just popped on here for the first time in a while (hello everyone!).

Holly is offlead the majority of the time and only on lead when walking by a road or livestock (or other places where dogs are required to be on-lead). I'd say 95% of her walking time is offlead. I feel quite strongly, like many others, that the ideal exercise for a dog is offlead. A long line is a great training tool and a good piece of equipment for a dog who can't reliably be offlead, but to me it is not as good as being offlead entirely, particularly for a larger dog who cannot gain full running speed on one. Holly does not wander far from me, but she certainly enjoys being offlead and I'd hate the thought of her being confined to a lead her whole life.

It does worry me that a large proportion of the British public seem to be of the opinion that all dogs should be on leads in public places. I really hope that it doesn't become the law in this country - it will be a very sad day if it does. It wouldn't be an issue if people bothered to train their dogs properly and didn't allow them to become a nuisance to members of the public.


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## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

Boxer123 said:


> Speaking of chasing the boxers have been remarkably well behaved with the pheasants.
> 
> Loki has caught several critters in the past and always lets them go. Ran around the garden with a pigeon in his mouth then let it go it was fine. He loves the chase. Best day ever when a bunny got in the secure field. Sox bless him has never caught anything.
> 
> View attachment 578250


Dan would go crazy, he loves to chase the crows, magpies and pigeons if he gets the chance.


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Sam has off-leash time every day in the playing field and along an enclosed riverbank. He's much happier off leash and far more relaxed. We can be in the field with other dogs in other areas of the field too and he is well behaved, stays close and his recall is good too. But off leash comes at a cost and that cost is coming when called, if he doesn't, he's back on his tether. He is a good lad though and really coming along nicely so it's rare that he loses his off-leash privilege.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sairy said:


> It does worry me that a large proportion of the British public seem to be of the opinion that all dogs should be on leads in public places. I really hope that it doesn't become the law in this country - it will be a very sad day if it does. It wouldn't be an issue if people bothered to train their dogs properly and didn't allow them to become a nuisance to members of the public.


Yes, I think it's the extremes tho (as always!); some people who think all dogs should be on a lead at all times & those who think their dogs should have free reign regardless of other animals, people, etc. It is such a shame that I think because of some irresponsible people others will lose offlead spaces.

Where I live there is alot of water (reservoirs/rivers) & therefore lots of wildlife, especially birds. My dogs have never bothered them but in spring/summer when the birds are nesting I make sure we give them plenty of space & the dogs don't swim near any nests. 

A friend also walks these sorts of places yet her spaniel has regularly killed young birds/chicks, her response is "Oh well, it's nature!" .... maybe but simply putting him on a lead at certain places (or avoiding them) would resolve this. I don't understand how someone could know their dog will do this & then allow it to happen again & again.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> Every other dog I've owned has killed something at some point.
> Is that weird?


Ziggy killed plenty of rabbits in her young day. Where we lived as tenants in a farm cottage where there were loads of them, the farmer was glad of her assistance in keeping the numbers down. What she killed, she ate. Though when we saw a rat hit by a van and crippled, dragging its back legs along, she wouldn't go near it. And the sight of her hanging on to the tail of a shelduck as it took off was a sight to see, when all her feet left the ground. She let go.
Kite only ever caught one rabbit, a baby. She held it in her mouth for a few seconds then let it go, and it hopped off back to the burrow. She was always kind to the young of any species.
My current dogs have never caught or killed anything, apart from spiders.

Back on the off-lead time subject, what I struggle with is walking all 3 _on_ lead. individually they're spot on, but compete to be in front (just Fly and Nell) when together, and my knees just can't take it.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> Yes, I think it's the extremes tho (as always!); some people who think all dogs should be on a lead at all times & those who think their dogs should have free reign regardless of other animals, people, etc. It is such a shame that I think because of some irresponsible people others will lose offlead spaces.


That is essentially what has happened here in the US. 
We're down to just one beach in a very large area that allows dogs off-leash and those times are quite restricted. The fines are quite high too. 
Even off leash you're supposed to keep your dog off the dunes for both erosion and birds nesting, and don't let them bother sea turtle nests during nesting season. 
Most people are very responsible at that beach, but again the fines are very high and it's well patrolled. Places that can't afford that kind of presence will simply say "no dogs allowed" 

The other thing the US has that the UK doesn't though, is for-real predators that can kill your dog. So those of us who do use more wild spaces to let our dogs have off-leash time are more invested in making sure they have a good recall. 

But then you have the idiots of course... The one's who's dogs' only experience off leash is in an enclosed dog park and who's recall is sketchy at best. They drive out for the day to a national park, let the dog loose and of course lose said dog. Now they have to drive home, no dog, and they're begging the rangers to let them know if they see anything. More and more state and national parks are going the "leashed dogs only" or even "no dogs allowed" route because of these idiots.


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## davidc (Dec 15, 2010)

My dog is off lead sometimes if I find a quiet field or if I'm at my mums as the flats she lives in have a communal garden. I tried for a few years to teach him recall to no avail. But it turned out he always had recall, I just had to do it in an excited voice! 
I'm likely moving to the Orkney Islands in a few years and there's plenty of places for off lead time there, though he will be eleven by then and he does have some issues with one leg - he had an op in 2020 but still lifts it up a lot - the vets said there's not a lot they can do, they said if he has another op it would cause him pain unnecessarily and not help him. I've noticed he doesn't lift it as much at home though, just outside but he has got the start of arthritis unfortunately. He doesn't let it get to him too much, people often comment on him being happy or excited. 



O2.0 said:


> And do you think it matters?
> 
> Just something I muse about from time to time. Had a couple of friends bring it up recently who feel really strongly about how important off-leash time is.
> 
> ...


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

If it weren't so cold I think I would love the Orkney Islands. My poor tropical dog would be miserable though! 

I took Penny for an off-leash run early this morning because she's going to have to be leashed most of the day today at a street festival, and she will likely need another off-leash run this afternoon when we return to blow off the stress (albeit fun stress) of being in a big city.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Don't know how well you can see it, but this is Penny taking off after something in the woods and then coming back. 









Terrier mutts can recall too!







youtube.com





I wasn't going to share 'cause, well, * waves hands around * but I think it's important for people to see that even if you have a dog who takes off after things, you can still teach a reliable recall.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> Don't know how well you can see it, but this is Penny taking off after something in the woods and then coming back.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How do you practice this though? Problem is where I am your never far from a road. Loki loves to chase things I’m not sure I’d have the confidence to practice.


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## Kaily (Feb 8, 2020)

You need to hire a field and then contact rent a bunny. Let said bunny go count to five then let Loki go. Calmly call Loki back, repeat as many times as necessary until a perfect recall is accomplished then reward. 

Might be an idea to hire more than one bunny 

Please let us know how it goes, film if possible.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Kaily said:


> You need to hire a field and then contact rent a bunny. Let said bunny go count to five then let Loki go. Calmly call Loki back, repeat as many times as necessary until a perfect recall is accomplished then reward.
> 
> Might be an idea to hire more than one bunny
> 
> Please let us know how it goes, film if possible.


We did actually have a bunny break into the secure field and he lost his mind with excitement. He loves to chase hasn’t a clue what to do when he’s caught it.


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## Kaily (Feb 8, 2020)

Boxer123 said:


> We did actually have a bunny break into the secure field and he lost his mind with excitement. He loves to chase hasn’t a clue what to do when he’s caught it.


I remember, that's why I wrote the tongue in cheek post .

I wish Alfie didn't know what to do if he catches anything


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Kaily said:


> I remember, that's why I wrote the tongue in cheek post .
> 
> I wish Alfie didn't know what to do if he catches anything


It certainly was a good training opportunity. Loki prefers his meat from Tesco poached with some garnish on the side.


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## Kaily (Feb 8, 2020)

Boxer123 said:


> It certainly was a good training opportunity. Loki prefers his meat from Tesco poached with some garnish on the side.


And hand fed of course.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Kaily said:


> And hand fed of course.


Definitely he’s my little squishy chops.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

Tod chases squirrels, but comes back because they run up the nearest tree and he hasn’t got a ladder. So he just bounces round the tree for a bit then gives up.

He chases rabbits too. You can tell there’s no terrier brain in him as when they go down a burrow he thinks they‘ve disappeared, so he loses interest.

I look on it as enrichment.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Linda Weasel said:


> Tod chases squirrels, but comes back because they run up the nearest tree and he hasn’t got a ladder. So he just bounces round the tree for a bit then gives up.
> 
> He chases rabbits too. You can tell there’s no terrier brain in him as when they go down a burrow he thinks they‘ve disappeared, so he loses interest.
> 
> I look on it as enrichment.


Sox is the same he will chase but will quickly lose interest he’s never caught anything. He once went after a deer and went out of sight, he came back a few minutes later super panicked.


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## Kaily (Feb 8, 2020)

Alfie has become very clever. He knows the squirrel will run to the tree so he stalks it very quietly for as long as he can then as soon as it sees him and starts to run he doesn't chase it but runs to the tree to try and get in front of it and catch it there.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Kaily said:


> Alfie has become very clever. He knows the squirrel will run to the tree so he stalks it very quietly for as long as he can then as soon as it sees him and starts to run he doesn't chase it but runs to the tree to try and get in front of it and catch it there.


That is clever.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

I’ve got this vision of Alfie doing a ‘Delboy and the chandeliers’ trick, and waiting by the wrong tree.

Edit. Google it if you don’t know!


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

If we're talking about dogs killing things then my previous 3 covered most bases, with Flynn being the most proficient killer as he had the speed and the skill, the collies just chased without much thought. Flynn would never chase if he knew he was never going to catch it. But we've had hare, squirrel, rabbits, pheasants, partridge, mice, chickens, pigeons, ducks, a coot and he even attacked a swan and a Canada goose. However, the dogs were always off lead and had pretty reliable recalls. I never wanted them to kill anything but walking in the countryside means coming across wildlife. I knew their limits with regards to how far they'd run so I made sure areas we walked were safe with regards to roads, train lines etc. 

As I've said before though, Ritter never comes off a lead because he's a liability to everybody and everything at the moment. I hire a secure field when I can which has actually been 3 times this week. That's because we seem to have gone backwards again in terms of his engagement with me, his fear of traffic, as it's half term there are lots of kids running about playing with footballs etc and the bad combination of him pulling me and the slippery ground.
His breeder said I shouldn't allow him the freedom of a secure field but he needs to be able to let off steam because he literally vibrates with pent up energy, you can feel it through the lead.
Many of the quiet places I used to walk have been built on, or every other dog owner has discovered them, so there really is nowhere any more that I can trust him to be free.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> How do you practice this though? Problem is where I am your never far from a road. Loki loves to chase things I’m not sure I’d have the confidence to practice.


Well that video is the end result, not the process  

You start on a long line, or even a short leash. And you progress step by step depending on the dog's natural tendencies and reinforcers. 

With Penny I needed to know that even when super aroused by something she can still disengage from the distraction and re-engage with me. Like even today in town on leash, I had a few moments where I just had to stop and wait for her to remember that I exist. That's the starting point. And then you build from there. 
By the time I asked her to come back to me during a chase I already knew there was a really excellent chance she would because we had practiced re-engaging so much in so many different contexts.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Kaily said:


> Alfie has become very clever. He knows the squirrel will run to the tree so he stalks it very quietly for as long as he can then as soon as it sees him and starts to run he doesn't chase it but runs to the tree to try and get in front of it and catch it there.


Ha ha! Smart dog!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Chasing is a definite no-no for my lot. They have enough enrichment in their lives & do not need to do this. There are so many deer where I live that run for miles & are very visible in the landscape so I cannot risk them running after them.

Wildlife running out means run to me for your ball which works really well. I suppose you have to consider your dog, the environment & the type of animals involved. My dogs do not give up on anything if they are motivated thats why I know if they started to chase they would be committed to that & if it were chasing a deer they would be gone. I know of too many dogs who hve gotten run over & killed to risk this.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> Wildlife running out means run to me for your ball which works really well. I suppose you have to consider your dog, the environment & the type of animals involved. My dogs do not give up on anything if they are motivated thats why I know if they started to chase they would be committed to that & if it were chasing a deer they would be gone. I know of too many dogs who hve gotten run over & killed to risk this.


I wouldn't risk it if I didn't know they would come back  And of course this area they would have to run through literally hunderds of acres before they hit a road that was paved.

Deer is a different story. I've never allowed deer chasing with any of my dogs. (We also have specific laws about deer chasing too.) It took a lot of work with Bates, but eventually he got it. I don't know if I'm crazy or not but I think that because they're allowed to chase rabbits and squirrels, it's easier to tell them no to deer. 

Penny is still learning that deer are a no, and just the other day we had a screaming potato moment because I saw the deer before she did and scooped her up before she could decide to go after them. As soon as she had the higher visual she saw them and lost her mind. But she is getting to where as long as I can re-engage her before she fully engages with the chase, she will come. 

It's not always appropriate for her to chase things and I don't always let her, but there are times when it is safe and okay for her to chase. Given where we live, for my dogs it's very important to practice coming back even in you're on a good run or scent. 

FWIW, Penny is no slouch when it comes to drive, my friend who is a very experienced behaviorist has spent a lot of time around Penny (we worked on some of her arousal and overarousal issues yesterday), has often commented on her "terrierness" and tenacity. I think it has made it easier for me to get that really good recall on her, but it does make life harder for a lot of things. She's still very young and she still struggles to switch from pure instinct (attack the thing) to her cognitive brain. We'll get there!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> Chasing is a definite no-no for my lot. They have enough enrichment in their lives & do not need to do this. There are so many deer where I live that run for miles & are very visible in the landscape so I cannot risk them running after them.
> 
> Wildlife running out means run to me for your ball which works really well. I suppose you have to consider your dog, the environment & the type of animals involved. My dogs do not give up on anything if they are motivated thats why I know if they started to chase they would be committed to that & if it were chasing a deer they would be gone. I know of too many dogs who hve gotten run over & killed to risk this.


I don’t want them chasing but do want to be able to call them off If they do take off. Sox is a good boy with great recall one day a deer came out of us so close you could have touched it and he was off. He did come back I was blowing my whistle. Around here we have signs up asking people not to let their dogs chase deer a couple were attacked. I’ve known lots of people lose their dogs when they have taken off after deer.

Loki is a funny one he likes to sniff and track Ive nearly lost him before when he went off following a scent. He even chased Geese in the sky the other day.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> I wouldn't risk it if I didn't know they would come back  And of course this area they would have to run through literally hunderds of acres before they hit a road that was paved.
> 
> Deer is a different story. I've never allowed deer chasing with any of my dogs. (We also have specific laws about deer chasing too.) It took a lot of work with Bates, but eventually he got it. I don't know if I'm crazy or not but I think that because they're allowed to chase rabbits and squirrels, it's easier to tell them no to deer.
> 
> ...


I do understand what you mean & that's why I think it depends on so many factors. Toby used to love to flush a peasant out. It wasn't about the chase but he loved the squawk they made as they flew up. This was the best bit for him so he was allowed to do this. Roxy wasn't for obvious reasons!

But my dogs now, then no. I think they have too much commitment for things they enjoy (with Kato it seems to be trying his best to is p*ss me off today!) & they are the sort of dogs that love high energy activities so no chasing at all .... ever!

"Screaming potato" .....


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

It's one of those conundrums where in order to be safe off-leash the dog has to have experience being off-leash, but if they're not safe off-leash, how do you give them that experience.

Our house sits on 20 acres and the back part of our lot adjoins 500 acres of timber company land. This is land where certain sections are cut for hardwood every 20 to 25 years or so but is otherwise completely left to be wild. There are no access roads in and out, just an old logging road that's well overgrown now.

I can't chance a dog running off and getting lost out here. None of our yard is fenced, so even a quick potty break before bed is practice being safe off-leash. Obviously when Penny (or any new dog) first comes they don't step out the door without a leash or long line attached, but I can't live like that long term, so they learn quickly to come back, and to not go galavanting off without someone with them.

We spend a lot of time just traipsing about in the timber company land, it's wild land, plenty of coyotes, I've seen bear, and heard plenty of bobcats and of course the BOP and all the other critters that live there. Penny is a smart dog, as in she knows how to keep herself safe. I know when there are predators about because she sticks closer to me. I've never worried about her wandering off and getting lost because even if she loses me (which she never has) she knows her way home no problem. 
But... she's a former feral-ish dog who had to learn to know her territory and food sources etc. so all this comes somewhat naturally to her. Sometimes more pet-like dogs lack that kind of "street smarts" if you will and it's much less safe to let them run off and then find you again.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> "Screaming potato" .....


One day I'm going to record her "there is a possum outside and I must chase it away" scream. It's ear splitting 
Thank god we don't have neighbors!!


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

O2.0 said:


> BOP


?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

birds of prey - hawks, owls...


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> It's one of those conundrums where in order to be safe off-leash the dog has to have experience being off-leash, but if they're not safe off-leash, how do you give them that experience.
> 
> Our house sits on 20 acres and the back part of our lot adjoins 500 acres of timber company land. This is land where certain sections are cut for hardwood every 20 to 25 years or so but is otherwise completely left to be wild. There are no access roads in and out, just an old logging road that's well overgrown now.
> 
> ...


Yes, it definitely isn't easy. All the dogs I've had from puppies have been offload from day 1. I know alot of pepple I train with disagree & think I'm setting them up for failure biut it is in areas I would consider low risk. I do use long lines when they are older & we are in an area that there is alot of wildlife. So far this has worked well for me.

This afternoon Marnie accidentally flushed some young partridges out so I said "Yes!" & she ran to me for her ball. I suppose in the puppy stage I am constantly playing & letting them explore but make sure I am part of the exploration rather than them just charging off.

20 acres then wild land next door ? Sounds bloody amazing


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

O2.0 said:


> birds of prey - hawks, owls...


Duh! Of course, dense brain moment ...


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> 20 acres then wild land next door ? Sounds bloody amazing


Land was really cheap out here when we bought it. The trade-off at the time is that there were no emergency services, not a whole lot of infrastructure at all really. We still only have a dirt road that the few houses out here maintain ourselves. Even our mailbox is about 1/4 of a mile from the house. 
And of course it means accepting that we share this space with Mother Nature and her creatures. We lost one of our cats last year to a coyote or something. I heard it but didn't see it 
I keep our current cat inside at night but some nights he flat refuses and insists on going out, when he gets old enough to not protest as much he will come inside permanently but given that this morning he caught a squirrel and proceeded to throw it against the front door for fun, and to announce he would like to bring it inside, I'm thinking he has some time before he slows down


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

@Boxer123 I'm actually more likely to lose Penny to her nose than to her legs, so another way I train to teach her to come back is to ask her to use her nose  

Here she's on a scent, so I ask her to check out _this_ scent. This is a well-practiced behavior that she always wins so she knows that if I ask her to find something it's going to be worth it. 









When you lose your dog to their nose, ask them to use their nose







youtube.com





And in general getting her to use her nose as part of working with me keeps us connected. @Canine K9 you might find this interesting too. She asks me for help twice. The first time I just told her to keep searching, the second time I moved towards the tree that had the last treat. 






And when you put all of it together, working together using her nose, making myself relevant and valuable to her, then I have so much more control over her even when she's in full arousal. It's not perfect, but she can still respond to me at least. 









Responsive even when on a scent







youtube.com




She's either 2 and a half or 3 and half years old, (I'm leaning more towards younger) so she still has brain maturing to happen and we still have a lot of "miles under the saddle" to work through together, but eventually I should be able to get her back with even more arousal and more difficult distractions. 
As I've said before, recall is also a function of the dog's age, no teenage dog has enough brain cells to have a perfect, safe recall. It just takes time. I think too often people see their 18 month old dog do a runner and assume that's just how they will always be, but not necessarily. You manage the idiot youngster and keep plugging away at recall and eventually it does come together.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> @Boxer123 I'm actually more likely to lose Penny to her nose than to her legs, so another way I train to teach her to come back is to ask her to use her nose
> 
> Here she's on a scent, so I ask her to check out _this_ scent. This is a well-practiced behavior that she always wins so she knows that if I ask her to find something it's going to be worth it.
> 
> ...


I do a bit of this with Loki probably not enough. I like the idea of multiple trees. I tend to do it when avoiding a trigger so scatter food and point it out.

This is probably something we can do in the big secure woodland. Loki is definitely growing brain cells. When we are in the secure 23 acre he doesn’t blow recall, checks in stays in sight.

The last time he was off lead in public we were walking playing and his nose literally hit the ground and he was gone. He rounded a field I could see him in the distance and luckily he spotted sox and came back.


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

Boxer123 said:


> How do you practice this though? Problem is where I am your never far from a road. Loki loves to chase things I’m not sure I’d have the confidence to practice.


All joking aside, you practice this by going out looking for wildlife. 
Go out with a fairly hungry dog and super high value food or a really special toy that you've put a ton of work into creating a really powerful history of recall history with. If a dog chased prey, it has enough drive to build a really fab recall for a flirt pole or a rabbit skin tug toy etc. Make sure they're on a secure lead. 
What your training process looks like will be determined to a point by your dogs level of drive, how solid your foundation obedience already is, if your dog takes food in the face of prey or not etc etc etc.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Katalyst said:


> All joking aside, you practice this by going out looking for wildlife.
> Go out with a fairly hungry dog and super high value food or a really special toy that you've put a ton of work into creating a really powerful history of recall history with. If a dog chased prey, it has enough drive to build a really fab recall for a flirt pole or a rabbit skin tug toy etc. Make sure they're on a secure lead.
> What your training process looks like will be determined to a point by your dogs level of drive, how solid your foundation obedience already is, if your dog takes food in the face of prey or not etc etc etc.


He has a rabbit tug which we have been a bit lax with he needs a new one really. Taking treats I’m not sure around wildlife. We have been so focused on his reactivity I haven’t done much on recall but we have made so much progress with that. He’s checking in beautifully with me now. 

He is mostly on his harness and long lead. 5 or 10 metres.

We have wildlife everywhere here. Loads of deer, rabbits and pheasants he manages to flush them out on a long line I think he’s just sniffing and out one flies.


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

I am not keen on my Dogs chasing wildlife. Last night, Sam started chasing a rabbit that came out of a shrub in the field in which we were walking. I called him off and he came back to me and gave up the chase. He got lots of praise for doing so. It's an important skill I think to keep the dogs and wildlife safe.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

We don't have much wildlife here. We have squirrels that the dogs chase but they never get near them. Pip goes nuts when he sees a fox. We get them in our back garden.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I like having several options when it comes to chasing.
Don't chase is definitely one of those options but there are very few behaviors I feel strongly enough to never allow for any reason. Humping and fighting are two that come to mind, but chasing is not one I feel the need to ban entirely. Obviously chasing vehicles, yes, but chasing bunnies and squirrels? That doesn't bother me. 

The other options besides not chasing at all are to recall off a chase, to recall after a chase, and to come back after a chase without me needing to call you. All 3 are all useful in their own way and I train for all 3. I figure the more options we have, the less chance of losing my dog.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Plenty of areas here I just wouldnt trust my lot off lead. Not much wildlife but what there is will be very close to busy roads so you dont have room for error!
Also I discovered a while ago that Hannah def would go down a rabbit hole if she found one so def not allowed to do that!


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> I like having several options when it comes to chasing.
> Don't chase is definitely one of those options but there are very few behaviors I feel strongly enough to never allow for any reason. Humping and fighting are two that come to mind, but chasing is not one I feel the need to ban entirely. Obviously chasing vehicles, yes, but chasing bunnies and squirrels? That doesn't bother me.
> 
> The other options besides not chasing at all are to recall off a chase, to recall after a chase, and to come back after a chase without me needing to call you. All 3 are all useful in their own way and I train for all 3. I figure the more options we have, the less chance of losing my dog.


I'm the same. Especially when our fields are full of wildlife part of the fun of going out for a run around is some hunting and the possibility of a little chase. Am I going to allow them to go off galivanting by themselves across the countryside? Errrr no. But when a bunny appears and then quickly realises it was a bad idea and legs it back into the undergrowth I let them have a little chase. But that's because they have good disengagement and can come away from the chase if I need them to (except Fly......................but once the bunny's gone he loses interest), and rabbits aren't hugely exciting because we see them and smell them all the time, and train around them as a distraction. Foxes and deer are a different matter, and I avoid practicing chasing them if I possibly can!
And remember if your dog likes to chase then providing as many appropriate outlets for that is key. If their needs are fulfilled they will be less likely to go off and find their own way to fulfil it!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Sarah H said:


> If their needs are fulfilled they will be less likely to go off and find their own way to fulfil it!


100%
I think a lot of the "tut tutting" about me letting Penny chase is because people think that by practicing chasing it will only escalate the behavior. However IME allowing her to chase 1) allows her to fulfill an instinctual drive which is absolutely imperative for her to feel fulfilled, and 2) allows her to _also_ practice coming back to me during or after the chase which is also imperative to living out here safely. 

I say this all the time, but 'hunting' and all the pieces involved in hunting is something Penny has learned to associate with me, so I am part of the picture for her and it makes it so that she definitely doesn't go off self employed. Again, indispensable if she's going to live out here safely with me.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sarah H said:


> I'm the same. Especially when our fields are full of wildlife part of the fun of going out for a run around is some hunting and the possibility of a little chase. Am I going to allow them to go off galivanting by themselves across the countryside? Errrr no. But when a bunny appears and then quickly realises it was a bad idea and legs it back into the undergrowth I let them have a little chase. But that's because they have good disengagement and can come away from the chase if I need them to (except Fly......................but once the bunny's gone he loses interest), and rabbits aren't hugely exciting because we see them and smell them all the time, and train around them as a distraction. Foxes and deer are a different matter, and I avoid practicing chasing them if I possibly can!
> And remember if your dog likes to chase then providing as many appropriate outlets for that is key. If their needs are fulfilled they will be less likely to go off and find their own way to fulfil it!


Am no sure tbh. I have known many dogs who lead active, fulfilled lives with people who are alot better trainers than me & their dogs chase wildlife & do not give up or can be called off.

I think there are so many variables & it's not really B&W. I think it's up to the individual owner really & I wouldn't pass judgement on anyone but it is not something I would allow my dogs to do ... ever. I do not have many rules that are strict but this is one

They don't mainly because I have worked hard on getting engagement with them from day 1 & not even having them experience the thrill of chasing which IMO would be like a switch being flicked. And this works for me. I live in an area where there are bloody deer everywhere, the numbers are unbelievable atm so always something I am aware of.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> Am no sure tbh. I have known many dogs who lead active, fulfilled lives with people who are alot better trainers than me & their dogs chase wildlife & do not give up or can be called off.


If you're thinking of IPO or mondio trainers, they can call their dog off a bite though right? 
So technically they _can_ call the dog off, they just have to generalize that behavior to other targets, not just the sleeve  
(Easier said than done!)

Denise Fenzi and Xen are a good example of a dog who can see wildlife, give chase, and still recall, and I don't think anyone would say Xen isn't a high drive dog.... 

And yes, absolutely, to each their own. If you prefer to never let the dog chase wildlife but the dog gets tons of enrichment chasing a decoy or flyball or flirtpole, then the dog is still getting that need fulfilled.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> If you're thinking of IPO or mondio trainers, they can call their dog off a bite though right?
> So technically they _can_ call the dog off, they just have to generalize that behavior to other targets, not just the sleeve
> (Easier said than done!)
> 
> ...


Yes, I know people who have competed at international level (so way better trainers than me) yet a couple of them still have dogs who will chase wildlife (if given a chance) & that's why I don't believe it is just a training issue but maybe something more primal, if that makes sense.

In IGP you have an "escape" exercises where the helper runs from the dog (who is in a down near the handler), the handler then sends the dog to "apprehend" the helper, the dog always get a bite. There is no call off. One day at club we were mucking about with exercises (as Archer is retired so it doesn't matter now how we do them) & my IGP trainer said he would impressed if I could call Archer back after sending him. So I tried ..... & he recalled! That is the only time in over 10yrs my trainer has ever been impressed with me


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Toffee is a committed rabbit chaser so lead goes on in rabbit country. She does not give up when she loses the rabbit, she will stay our for ever hunting and getting further and further away. I hope she would not chase deer but I have not risked finding out. Brought up on a farm I would hope that larger livestock were of no interest to her. She has caught rabbits and killed many rats but I know if I let her chase in a strange place she would be lost very quickly as she would carry on hunting and not stop at the point she lost the original rabbit.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> In IGP you have an "escape" exercises where the helper runs from the dog (who is in a down near the handler), the handler then sends the dog to "apprehend" the helper, the dog always get a bite. There is no call off. One day at club we were mucking about with exercises (as Archer is retired so it doesn't matter now how we do them) & my IGP trainer said he would impressed if I could call Archer back after sending him. So I tried ..... & he recalled! That is the only time in over 10yrs my trainer has ever been impressed with me


Good boy Archer!!

Is there no exercise where the dog is in attack mode and has to release and return to the handler? Or is that only in Mondio? I don't know my bite sports well but I could have sworn I've also seen an exercise where the dog is in full sprint towards the decoy and has to recall before the bite. 

But in any case it's one of those things that is a combination of training, practice, and context. I know Penny will recall off biting a runner's heels because I have specifically trained it, we practice it over and over and she understands the context of XC practice and "her" kids. (For any random person reading, it's not as irresponsible as it sounds, there's way more context.) 
Now if you make that a decoy in a full bite suit, I really don't know what she would do because we've never practiced with a decoy in a full bite suit outside the context of XC practice. 

It's the same thing with wildlife. She understands when we're on "chase if you want to" walks, we have trained and practiced coming back after a chase or during a chase so that behavior is reliable. 

To me, the more contexts where she has to recall despite being in high arousal, the better she will be at recall in general. Still doesn't mean I'll test it in unsafe conditions but if something unexpected were to happen I like knowing that the odds of her recalling are pretty darned good.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> Good boy Archer!!
> 
> Is there no exercise where the dog is in attack mode and has to release and return to the handler? Or is that only in Mondio? I don't know my bite sports well but I could have sworn I've also seen an exercise where the dog is in full sprint towards the decoy and has to recall before the bite.


I think it's Mondio when you have a call off? They tend to do a lot of random (but fun) things.

Currently I can call Bronte off chasing a 'dead' toy. So he waits, I throw the toy, it lands, I release him, then recall him at some point as he's running full pelt towards it! I don't do it loads as I don't want to break his drive for the toy, but it's something I want him to be able to do. I find if I do it too much he pre-empts the recall so isn't at full drive towards the toy, which kind of defeats the purpose of recalling from chase. I have started recall from 'live' toy (moving toy) and when he's not in a wait (so already moving and not in a controlled state) but this is very much a WIP. He can recall from the chickens (they are in a covered run so he can't actually get to them, but they do get in a flap if a dog has a go at them) so I know he can do it, it's a case of proofing in different environments etc.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Sarah H said:


> I think it's Mondio when you have a call off? They tend to do a lot of random (but fun) things.
> 
> Currently I can call Bronte off chasing a 'dead' toy. So he waits, I throw the toy, it lands, I release him, then recall him at some point as he's running full pelt towards it! I don't do it loads as I don't want to break his drive for the toy, but it's something I want him to be able to do. I find if I do it too much he pre-empts the recall so isn't at full drive towards the toy, which kind of defeats the purpose of recalling from chase. I have started recall from 'live' toy (moving toy) and when he's not in a wait (so already moving and not in a controlled state) but this is very much a WIP. He can recall from the chickens (they are in a covered run so he can't actually get to them, but they do get in a flap if a dog has a go at them) so I know he can do it, it's a case of proofing in different environments etc.


What’s the difference between a live and dead toy ? (Stupid question) I’ve never thought of recalling Loki from moving toys.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Boxer123 said:


> What’s the difference between a live and dead toy ? (Stupid question) I’ve never thought of recalling Loki from moving toys.


 I'd assume a live toy is one that's moving, so chasing a ball immediately after you've thrown it, as opposed to a dead toy where the dog is made to wait until the ball has stopped moving before being allowed to get it.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Leanne77 said:


> I'd assume a live toy is one that's moving, so chasing a ball immediately after you've thrown it, as opposed to a dead toy where the dog is made to wait until the ball has stopped moving before being allowed to get it.


Not throwing a live squirrel then because Loki would love that !


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Boxer123 said:


> Not throwing a live squirrel then because Loki would love that !


The squirrel, not so much ...


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> Good boy Archer!!
> 
> Is there no exercise where the dog is in attack mode and has to release and return to the handler? Or is that only in Mondio? I don't know my bite sports well but I could have sworn I've also seen an exercise where the dog is in full sprint towards the decoy and has to recall before the bite.
> 
> ...


The first bit of the protection round is:

Bark & Hold
The handler sends the dog run around the blinds to find the helper. The dog will then confront the helper by barkING continuously until the judge signals for the handler to approach. The handler will then stand behind the dog (approx 2m) then call the dog out of the blind to sit at heel.

Attempted Escape 
The helper then walks from the blind to a set place on the field. The handler then walks the dog in heel to another set place, cues the dog for a down then the handler moves back to the blind. The helper then (on instruction form the judge runs) & the dog is then sent to apprehend the helper. After the bite the judge will instruct the handler to cue the dog to "OUT". The dog will then guard the helper (either silent guard or barking) until the handler comes to his/her side.

So Archer had never been recalled from a bite in all his years of training in this sport so I was very, very happy that he could do this. But then he is a bloody amazing dog

In working trials there is more recall from the 'criminals' as they mix up the exercises in the PD stake (where there is bitework involved) as there is no set criteria.

In Mondio there is an exercise called the Stop Attack (I think it's only in the top level but not sure) where the handler sends the dog to bite but the recalls him/her within 3m of the decoy


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Boxer123 said:


> What’s the difference between a live and dead toy ? (Stupid question) I’ve never thought of recalling Loki from moving toys.





Leanne77 said:


> I'd assume a live toy is one that's moving, so chasing a ball immediately after you've thrown it, as opposed to a dead toy where the dog is made to wait until the ball has stopped moving before being allowed to get it.


Exactly as @Leanne77 says. A dead toy is a still toy and easier to get a dog to call off it or drop it. A live toy is still moving so it's emulating prey, and therefore it's harder to get a dog to recall from chasing it or drop it. So it could be a ball rolling, or a whip with a lure on the end. Or if you are playing tug it's when you are pulling and playing - that's a live toy. Then when you make it go still it becomes dead and you find the dog will drop the toy much more easily than if you are still tugging! It's building the concept and skill of recalling from chase or play.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

JoanneF said:


> The squirrel, not so much ...


Imagi


Sarah H said:


> Exactly as @Leanne77 says. A dead toy is a still toy and easier to get a dog to call off it or drop it. A live toy is still moving so it's emulating prey, and therefore it's harder to get a dog to recall from chasing it or drop it. So it could be a ball rolling, or a whip with a lure on the end. Or if you are playing tug it's when you are pulling and playing - that's a live toy. Then when you make it go still it becomes dead and you find the dog will drop the toy much more easily than if you are still tugging! It's building the concept and skill of recalling from chase or play.



Ive not tried this with Loki it’s something to work on in the field.


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## margy (Dec 9, 2018)

Zak got the zoomies today and seriously scared me. Am not used to huge dogs barging about.I told him to calm down and he did but feel like he needs to let of steam so looking to hire a fenced field next week. Just worried he might injure himself running around as he might be using muscles he hasn't used since racing. I feel guilty he isn't running as that's what he would love. Running not racing.


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## Kaily (Feb 8, 2020)

margy said:


> Zak got the zoomies today and seriously scared me. Am not used to huge dogs barging about.I told him to calm down and he did but feel like he needs to let of steam so looking to hire a fenced field next week. Just worried he might injure himself running around as he might be using muscles he hasn't used since racing. I feel guilty he isn't running as that's what he would love. Running not racing.


He is going to love the field, I am so pleased you are doing this for him. I would imagine he is still pretty fit.

I hope you film him running, I'm sure it will be quite a site


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Sorry you got a fright but 


margy said:


> Zak got the zoomies today


That sounds like a sign he is settling right in.

At the field, maybe a warm up process first would help? I'm sure the greyhound rescue place would have advice, or maybe @O2.0?


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## Kaily (Feb 8, 2020)

Good point about warm up. When Alfie used to tear about like a lune I always made sure I walked him calmly on the lead for a good 10 minutes first.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

JoanneF said:


> At the field, maybe a warm up process first would help? I'm sure the greyhound rescue place would have advice, or maybe @O2.0?


Just a good warm-up walk to the field should work, a little trot while you run next to him as long as he doesn't lose his mind LOL  

What a lovely thing to do for him, he'll love it I'm sure!


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## Canine K9 (Feb 22, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> @Boxer123 I'm actually more likely to lose Penny to her nose than to her legs, so another way I train to teach her to come back is to ask her to use her nose
> 
> Here she's on a scent, so I ask her to check out _this_ scent. This is a well-practiced behavior that she always wins so she knows that if I ask her to find something it's going to be worth it.
> 
> ...


Sorry it took me so long to reply @O2.0 !! I love that video and it definitely reminds me of how Bailey asks me for help in the few minutes before he gets frustrated. Really helpful, actually, to see how you respond to her asking you for help, so thanks for sharing!!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

On the topic of "off leash"...

At the last two XC meets (state qualifier and state) there was a gentleman with a service dog. A lovely GSD who looked perfectly happy and seemed to understand his job to stay with his handler.

The dog was not on a leash, but was on an ecollar. I did not look carefully but I did not notice who was holding the remote of the ecollar, I'm guessing it was the handler but I'm actually not sure.
I say that because it occurred to me, what if the handler's disability is something that incapacitates him, like PTSD or seizures. And if so, does it become a problem when the handler can't use the remote?
I suppose it would be a similar question if the dog were on a leash no? What happens if the handler becomes incapacitated. 

But then I started thinking about "off leash" and does it count as off leash time if a dog is technically off leash but under tight control with an ecollar? To me that's not. But there was this gal on instagram with her dog on an ecollar bragging about him being able to be "off leash" but he wasn't really enjoying any off leash freedom. Just plodding along the trail being recalled from a few feet away. 

IDK maybe he does get to run around and be a dog too, but that example was not a good one to me - I mean why bother if you're not going to let the dog get more than a few feet away from you, might as well use a leash at that point. 

Thoughts?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Again , I suppose it depends. Offlead means do many different things I suppose. My friend has a spaniel who, when out with his is rarely near her & usually out of sight doing his thing. I know alot of people who have spaniels & let them range quite far distances but I coudnt cope with that & am far more controlling!  

As I've said previously Kato wears an ecollar but he (like my other dogs) doesn't really range far & is allowed to sniff & just be a dog without any close control.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I don't like Penny being out of sight, and for the most part she too likes to keep me in sight but it's a natural thing, I don't have to do much of anything (now) to make sure we can see each other. 
Sometimes I do realize I've "lost" her but that's never for long, she's usually either camouflaged, or bursts out around a bend, or as soon as I call she comes.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

With M'Boi and Georgina I was happy to let them disappear from sight to do their own thing.. Both of them were so reliable I knew they'd be back within 10 minutes or so without my having to call them.

I can't say I really like it when the Schnauzers go out of sight, but I am beginning to trust them more. The few times they've gone AWOL, Gwylim has always come back when called and cloth eared Grisha never strays too far from home simply because he's too busy sniffing the ground!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> Again , I suppose it depends. Offlead means do many different things I suppose. My friend has a spaniel who, when out with him is rarely near her & usually out of sight doing his thing. I know alot of people who have spaniels & let them range quite far distances but I coudnt cope with that & am far more controlling!
> 
> As I've said previously Kato wears an ecollar but he (like my other dogs) doesn't really range far & is allowed to sniff & just be a dog without any close control.


Yes, same with my lot. I dont ask them to stay nearer me they just do. Watching my friends spaniel tho compared to my GSDs there is a huge difference in how they behave when out & about investigating the area.

That's why it was interesting to see Kato's behaviour change when Marnie was in season. Not only was it around her but also when he was out with me. I think he decided he was quite the stud who wanted to run off quite a way from me & go back to being Mr Independent again. As Marnie's season came to an end he stopped doing this tho.

Pic I sent my friend


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## freckles (May 8, 2008)

Mine go off lead on every walk as long as it safe (no traffic) they all have a great recall.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I was never too concerned when my other 3 were out of sight. I knew they wouldn't be interfering with other people or dogs and I knew they wouldn't get close enough to strangers to be stolen, or that they'd not be taken without a fight.

I have, on a few occasions 'lost' one of them. With Flynn he'd very often be on point just a few yards away but was very sticky and would hold a point despite recall. Eventually he'd flush whatever it was, usually making me crap my pants in the process! But I had a specific location whistle which I'd pip once per second which allowed them to pinpoint where I was if they got disorientated.

Being a pointer, Flynn would range the furthest but always liked to keep me in sight. So in the woods he'd stay much closer but on heathland he'd go 200/300 yards away. It didnt concern me as his recall was spot on (unless he was on point!). The others had great recall too. I'd often stand there shouting Jed, getting more and more annoyed that he was ignoring me, only to find he was standing behind me looking at me like 'I'm here for Gods sake woman!' He did that alot. 

In the natural secure field Ritter doesnt go that far really and keeps me in sight but the view is obscured by trees. In the other secure field which is much more open, he will race off and disappear over the brow out of sight.
Since he doesn't come off lead anywhere else, he's totally untested.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

If I were to become incapacitated, they'd all come look for me. In the woods they often charge off together (Nell carrying a bit of wood she's found, taunting the others with it, Fly often holding one end) - that's my cue to run off the path and hide as best I can. Within a few seconds they come back looking for me, often run past the hiding place before they pick up the scent and locate me. If one gets there first, I'll hold that dog to hide it, too, until they're all together. Such fun!
They're normally checking in all the time, between the 3 of them it's tricky to make a move without at least one of them clocking where I'm going.
When I had just Ziggy, I once knocked my head on a fallen tree - I'd been ducking under it on the path for months, and just ducked my normal distance, but it had fallen further and I got quite a crack on the skull, seeing stars and whatever. Ziggy was trying to wake me up by bouncing her ball on my neck.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Burrowzig said:


> If I were to become incapacitated, they'd all come look for me. In the woods they often charge off together (Nell carrying a bit of wood she's found, taunting the others with it, Fly often holding one end) - that's my cue to run off the path and hide as best I can. Within a few seconds they come back looking for me, often run past the hiding place before they pick up the scent and locate me. If one gets there first, I'll hold that dog to hide it, too, until they're all together. Such fun!
> They're normally checking in all the time, between the 3 of them it's tricky to make a move without at least one of them clocking where I'm going.
> When I had just Ziggy, I once knocked my head on a fallen tree - I'd been ducking under it on the path for months, and just ducked my normal distance, but it had fallen further and I got quite a crack on the skull, seeing stars and whatever. Ziggy was trying to wake me up by bouncing her ball on my neck.


This is a really good tactic and I've always done it too. Not getting knocked out, but hiding from the dogs  
It helps them remember that their job is to keep up with me. I don't mind calling and reminding them, but sometimes I do just hide and they always find me. Practicing this also helps them not panic if they loose you, they know to put their nose down and retrace their steps until they find you.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

I was out walking in the woods with M'boi and Chloe one November afternoon when I tripped over a fallen branch hidden under the leaves. I landed heavily on my side, and although I didn't realise it at the time had fractured my femur.

When I "sort of" came to, M'Boi was pawing my shoulder and little Chloe licking my face. I knew I had to get up and find my way home somehow so I asked M'boi to stand whilst I levered myself up using her back. I put M'Boi's lead on and then told her to "Take mum home".

They were absolute stars and slowly led me out of the wood and onto the cart track. It took us nearly half an hour to make it home but I would have never managed if it hadn't been for my dogs.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I have a problem with Candy sometimes. She can lose me very easily and then if I call her she has no idea what direction my voice has come from. Poor girl gets so confused and either stands still or sets off in the wrong direction or follows a passer by. It is getting worse so I have to watch her closely. She is better off the lead though so she can choose her own pace with her wonky back legs. Toffee tends to be going on ahead and I am a quick walker anyway so we are a bit mismatched lately.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Blitz said:


> I have a problem with Candy sometimes. She can lose me very easily and then if I call her she has no idea what direction my voice has come from. Poor girl gets so confused and either stands still or sets off in the wrong direction or follows a passer by. It is getting worse so I have to watch her closely. She is better off the lead though so she can choose her own pace with her wonky back legs. Toffee tends to be going on ahead and I am a quick walker anyway so we are a bit mismatched lately.


Can you not slow down and keep a closer eye on her? I'm a fast walker but when my old dogs slowed right down and had poor back leg movement, I took it at their pace. They also started to lose their hearing and eyesight so for their own safety they stayed on a Flexi lead.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

My dog Biko got pretty addled in his old age, it was a combination of his hearing going and just not having full cognition I think. At the time Bates was a youngster. Bates would watch me call Biko and run out to Biko and "herd" him back to me. I don't think it was particularly altruistic on Bates' part, just him being so good at understanding what I wanted. It definitely made it easier for Biko to stay off-leash safely.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Today was the second time my neighbours young cavi escaped I came out the house to see her chasing a car down the road. Lucky the car stopped and caught her. We live on a country road which is 30 but people always speed. My heart was in my throat. Her owner was calling but she was gone. This is where recall is important it made me think of this thread. Last time she escaped she came running up to Sox and her owner quickly grabbed her.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Leanne77 said:


> Can you not slow down and keep a closer eye on her? I'm a fast walker but when my old dogs slowed right down and had poor back leg movement, I took it at their pace. They also started to lose their hearing and eyesight so for their own safety they stayed on a Flexi lead.


I do keep a good eye on her. She is best off the lead on the vet's advice as well as my own opinion. Toffee is usually with her at sniffs or running on ahead. Candy can still walk pretty fast when she isnt stopping to sniff,but cant manage longer walks, she has a stroller for long outings - it is a neurological problem - old injury in her neck seeming to affect her legs the last few months but not causing her pain. Luckily she is not a big dog and is not overweight so she copes so far.


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## margy (Dec 9, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> Today was the second time my neighbours young cavi escaped I came out the house to see her chasing a car down the road. Lucky the car stopped and caught her. We live on a country road which is 30 but people always speed. My heart was in my throat. Her owner was calling but she was gone. This is where recall is important it made me think of this thread. Last time she escaped she came running up to Sox and her owner quickly grabbed her.


Suzie was a horror if she saw a cat. Recall went out the window. Any other time she was obedient. Cat's were her downfall.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

margy said:


> Suzie was a horror if she saw a cat. Recall went out the window. Any other time she was obedient. Cat's were her downfall.


This little girl is a bit of a pocket rocket definitely going to be a challenge.


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