# Why do the rats smell so much?



## Wobbles

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## Guest

Fancy rats don't have Weil's disease.

This might make you feel better:



> leptospirosis is very rare in the UK with the Health Protection Agency (HPA) reporting 50-60 cases per year in England and Wales.


I think quite a few of us would have been very ill if there was a huge risk  Just don't drink their wee and you'll be fine 

My rats never smell that bad, they might have a slightly rattier smell close to clean out day. Even people that don't have pets comment that my house doesn't smell of rats.

I always wipe off shelves and toys everyday and the rest gets cleaned out once a week.


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## blade100

Are you not wiping the shelves down everyday?

This is what I do every morning.
I wipe down any shelves with warm washing liquid water and cloth.
I change there litter trays every other day.
They get fresh water every day.
There hammocks and cube beds get washed every 3 days.

Yes there is a certain smell but never that bad.
Every animal has a smell about them.


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## sully

I nearly succumbed to getting Rats a few months ago, then again recently.I do really like the look of them and how they are clever and cuddly, but i keep reading about both sexes pee mark everywhere, which is no good with carpets for free ranging?


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## Guest

sully said:


> I nearly succumbed to getting Rats a few months ago, then again recently.I do really like the look of them and how they are clever and cuddly, but i keep reading about both sexes pee mark everywhere, which is no good with carpets for free ranging?


My rats don't pee on the carpet, I do put a sheet over the sofa tho because they sometimes pee on the arm  but with a sheet I can just throw it in the washing machine


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## Tomskrat

I find often that my degus smell worse then my ratties. Their cage is given a part litter clean weekly, and a full litter clean out monthly. All the accessories are soaked in warm water ever 5-7days, litter trays are emptied every 3, and hammocks washed once a week. Even at their filthiest my boys hardly smell. With a good diet, husbandry and ventilation the smell shouldn't be bad at all. Some groups I have noticed smell worse then others, kittens being the most pungent.


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## Wobbles

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## Guest

Wobbles said:


> It's not just the shelves, its all the toys and houses too, and I just don't have time to wash them everyday or so. I know all animals have a certain smell, but these don't have the usual 'animal' odor, that I cold deal with, they and eveverything in the cage smell of pee which is awful. My brother said my shed smelt when he went in there and the odor must of clung to my clothing as he said he could stil smell it after. He said that it was awful and burned your throat. I don't mind 'rodent' smell, but I don't like the shed smelling of pee, its revolting. I had that problem with male mice I really don't want it again. They don't have any material in the cage, everything is plastic and its still holding the smell


At my max I've had 14 rats here and the smell is never that bad


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## blade100

My boys pee on the carpet though saying that it's just dribble wee.
It doesn't smell and carpets get cleaned anyway.


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## lisa01uk87

the simple solution has already been pointed out to you, you cannot be cleaning them out enough, i had 6 girls in a homemade (wooden) cage, it took well over a year before it STANK because the pee was getting into the wood where they had nibbled, i threw it out and rehoused them in a freddy 2 (i was down to 3 girls by this point) i have never had an issue with them smelling and i never litter trained my girls, i used bio-catolet in there base, always have done, gave them a full clean out weekly and wash toys every few days and there shelves as and when it was needed throughout the week. its not difficult and shouldnt take long to do.

Home


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## zany_toon

Have to admit that even having almost 6 mice at one point, almost all of which were male I never had a problem with smells until cleaning day (and only after cleaning because they wanted to make their cages smell nice!) I even once went to a feeder breeder with more than 200 mice, rats and multimammates and never noticed a smell. What is in their cage Wobbles? Is there something in it that the pee has permeated into? Are you letting enough fresh air into the shed? Or is the shed too small a space for all the animals (only asking as I have noticed that a mouse in a too small cage that is enclosed, such as a duna, will start to make it's cage smell very quickly because of the build up in the confined space.)? Spot cleaning every day should only take you minutes, as would wiping down the toys - it will also make the weekly clean easier as the toys won't have a weeks worth of pee and poo on them that needs scrubbed off.


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## MrRustyRead

how much ventilation does the shed have?


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## peter0

Are you sure your sheds getting enough ventilation?

My 5 chipmunks have free range of the shed attached to their aviary and it does have a pee smell to it as they have lots of wooden stuff like trees, branches and huts with lots of hammocks and bark as flooring so it does have a smell but its not over powering and it's worse in the winter as i can't open the shed door much. You do have all your pets in that space so obviously it will have a smell.

I have 3 male mice, 3 female mice, 1 hamster and 4 chipmunks in my bedroom and i only really get a smell on clean out day and keeping my room tidy along with a good cleaning regime of the animals then it stays down. I take it rats are like most rodents and have a smell to them which is something you should think abouy before getting any animal


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## polishrose

My rats do smell more than the hamsters but It's better since I removed a wooden shelf I had.I also found it's better if I do a part clean every few days instead of a full clean once a week.


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## alan g a

I'm not sure what is wrong but sounds like something is wrong. My ratties do smell on occasion, but it is never all that bad and you have to have your nose inside their cage before it becomes a problem.


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## Guest

What's worrying me here is this:


> My brother said my shed smelt when he went in there and the odor must of clung to my clothing as he said he could stil smell it after


The only time I have ever been impregnated with rat pee on my clothes is when I've helped collecting rescues 

I really don't get it :nonod:


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## polishrose

What bedding are you using and how often is it changed?And how much are you using?Different bedding suits different rats.I have found megazorb to be the best so far-hemp bedding and finacard makes the smell stronger.Carefresh is OK but too expensive.Going to try fitch next and depending if I like it it'll be that or megazorb.


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## Micky93

Firstly, change the bedding. And give it time to really tell. We went through tons to find that care fresh/megazorb was the best for our boys. It's worth testing a good few out.

Secondly, let the shed get fresh air and ventilation every day for a good while. It's not a huge shed and with all the different cages in it it wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't well ventilated enough. 

We found having a wooden sleeping house was making the smell worse as the pee was soaking into it before we had a chance to spot clean it in the day. We swapped it for a plastic one and some sputniks and they've been happy as larry. Still use fabric hammocks and cubes etc though, just make sure they are washed at the MOST once a week, but preferably less than that.


Our boys don't stink that much. There is a definite odour about them, more so than the hamsters, but it's really not that bad at all


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## Wobbles

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## Guest

I'm sorry you keep repeating the list that you have kept in the shed but no matter how many times you repeat it, it is very obvious that your shed isn't ventilated properly..

Many, many people have more than 4 rats and they don't go round stinking just because they were standing in the same room :nonod:

At the moment I have 8 rats in one room with hamsters and not one person points out any smell


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## peter0

Do you open the door or window to let fresh air in?

Could it be the cage itself smelling because of pee on the bars or something like that?

Really as most people say your best bet will be to wipe down shelves etc daily and cleaning soiled spots and spot cleaning. How big is the shed as maybe the smell builds up more with it being in a smaller space rather than in a room in the house. I have 3 male mice in my bedroom and unless i sniff the cage i can't smell it around the room and since i've used different beddings and done spot cleaning it's went down even more.


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## Wobbles

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## Guest

Wobbles said:


> I'm not keep repeating it, it's fact that not one of the other animals smell, therefore its a problem with the rats not the shed. I have tried lots of beddings, carefresh stank, biocatolet is next to useless, megazorb is ok ish,shredded paper is crap, and what I'm using now aubiose is the best one so far. See everyone says they can't smell theirs, so is it just mine who are dirty buggers or what? I do not want the shed smelling of pee, I do not want my clothes smelling of pee, and I do not want everything in the cage sticky and smelling. I was never told rats wazz on everything in their cage and I find it hard to believe they'd be so popular if they do. Because I had that problem with male mice and it was unbearable.


You are repeating because you have said the same thing many times now, it couldn't possibly be because you have too many animals in a 6ft x 4ft shed could it :nono:

I think you were told several times explaining that rats wee on everything 

It is the shed that is the problem otherwise other people would have the exact same issue  You have not got super duper rats that smell really bad, you just need to get into a proper routine and sort out the ventilation in the shed or reduce the number of animals in there.

I know my reply sounds harsh but I get fed up with "Ohh no EVERYTHING stinks"


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## blade100

ALL rats scent Mark in THEIR cage!
It's what they do.
My boys piss on there shelves,hammocks,etc but as I said I wipe down there shelves daily! I change there hammocks every 3 days.
This is what you should be doing because obviously your only doing a once a week cage clean. Rats needs are different to hamsters and gerbils.
It's no wonder they stink if your leaving there pee for a week on shelves which means there walking it over everything in there cage,the bars,the floors,the toys etc and themselves!
If your not cleaning them properly eventually they may get very poorly due to the ammonia.


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## Wobbles

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## peter0

Surely reading up about rats before getting them you would come across that they are a little smelly?

If you didn't want your shed stinking out and pee on all their stuff you shouldn't have got rats.. Hamsters are completely different from them and my girl Betty doesn't smell one bit but my mice are a bit smelly but i know that from researching them before i got them and male mice are smelly but with the correct cleaning routine they are fine. I've actually went just under 2 weeks without cleaning out my males as i was waiting for the bedding to arrive and they are in my room and it didn't smell much worse.

As others have said you need to do bits of cleaning every couple of days rather than just once a week.


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## peter0

Wobbles said:


> Actually they don't pee on the shelves, they did on one , but I put the litter tray on it to stop them. It's all the other toys that are sticky and smelly and *I can't wash all of them every day.*


Why can't you give them a wipe down every 2-3 days with a wet cloth or baby wipe, it doesn't take up much time?


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## Guest

Wobbles said:


> If I had too many animals in the shed I would have a problem being able to smell them all, not just one. In the past I had a chinchilla, 2 gerbils , 1 mouse and 7 hamsters in there and I couldn't smell any of them. Another time I had a chinchilla and 8 hamsters, couldn't smell them either. Or 1 rabbit, 1 chinchilla and 5 hamsters. So it's not a numbers problem.
> 
> Actually they don't pee on the shelves, they did on one , but I put the litter tray on it to stop them. It's all the other toys that are sticky and smelly and I can't wash all of them every day.


No, you would be able to smell the strongest. If you didn't clean them out then they would all smell but I'm not suggesting that.

You are obviously doing something wrong otherwise there would be hundreds of other rat keepers with the same issue, if you don't have time to wipe down the toys and shelves everyday then it brings me back to... you have too many animals to cope with..

And before you say it yes I have more animals than you, the BIG difference is I have a bigger space than 6ft x 4ft to fit them in and I'm home all day to take care of their needs


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## Wobbles

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## Wobbles

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## Guest

Wobbles said:


> You know what Bernie? I hold my hands up, your right, yes I have too many to cope with. I think I am way out of my depth with the rats, I have too many, I should never ever of bought another 3, should of just bought 1 more for Tia. The dogs, rabbits and hamsters I am fine with and have no problem with, the gerbils aren't too bad, but the rats are too demanding and high maintenance for what I can manage. I will never keep more than 2 again, if I decide to keep any that is, I just can't manage them. If it wasn't for the fact I didn't want to lose Tia, I would seriously think of rehoming them. Tia and 1 more I could deal with, 2 wouldn't make such a huge difference in the shed or the cage, but not 4. In all honesty I have 2 too many. I am struggling like this, now you know why I was so adamant I only wanted and bought one in the first place.


Well done for holding your hands up, sorry if I bugged but I could see it a mile off and you needed to admit it to yourself..

Hopefully this has taught you a valid life lesson, research first, research a sh!t load more and them have a long hard think before getting any new species.

As for now all you can do is rehome the group (splitting the group now will be cruel) or just take time once a day to clean down everything and then have a really hard think about getting rats in the future..


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## blade100

But when it comes to rats you can't just want one! As you've found out after rats NEED company. If you had of researched them before getting Tia "just because your friend has one female" then you wouldn't be in the situation now.

As I said in your other threads about your rats I'd just rehome them because it's it's obvious your not meeting the required care needs of the rats.
You stated in your other thread that you handle all your hamsters every night before your tv programes but what about the rats? Rats are way more intelligent and require human interaction.
I'm sorry but if you can't clean your rats down and by that I mean wipe toys daily then you shouldn't have them! Do you even give them fresh water everyday? And food? Do you give them fresh fruit n veg daily? Do you get them out for an hour everyday? Because this is what you should be doing with rats. 
Honestly Laura if I were you because you just said to bernies reply that you have too many and can't cope with your rats that you should do right by them and find them a nice home where they'll be indoors and get ALL the attention they deserve.


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## Wobbles

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## Lil Miss

that is not the perfect solution, that is actually quite selfish of you, if you are rehoming tias friends then its only fair to rehome her too!! rats form very strong, very close bonds, it would be cruel to do that to her


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## polishrose

I don't think that's the perfect solution either and to be perfectly honest 4 rats don't take up any more time than 2.Mine all get out of the cage together, they all get fed together, they all get their toys cleaned together.I agree with the others that it would be EXCEEDINGLY cruel to split up Tia and her friends-it's almost like you hate Tia's friends...and I bet you wouldn't get her another friend, you'd just keep her on her own"because my friend does it so it must be OK".Seriously stick to your hamsters and gerbils(who incidentally smell less than rats so you won't notice it) and let the rats go to someone who actually wants to look after them and can do so. I'm adding a 5th rat to my group of 4-it's not going to take any more time to look after them other than a bit of extra time for cute ratty cuddles.


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## blade100

I can't believe you are going to take away Tia's friends :nonod: 

You do realise she may not even get on with a new rat! Tia may hate her! Intros may go bad.

And sticking the other 3 in a college??? Why not find them a nice home in a house where they can be in the lounge? If you stick them in college who's going to feeds them? Get them out for free range? What about when it's the 6 week holidays or half term? Who's going to come in and feed them? Etc.

Please just let them go altogether rehome them on here.
And in future don't get anymore rats or wait till your older and research them properly.


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## Wobbles

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## polishrose

Hey Wobbles let's take away your entire family that you're living with and replace them with one stranger and hope you get on with them.You DON'T split up bonded groups, you just don't!!!


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## blade100

Why don't you just let them all go together to a new home?
Why would you want to split up the existing group?


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## Guest

Wobbles said:


> *Now listen. I have been struggling with 4 rats for a while, look back through my threads and you'll see. I HAVE TOO MANY. I CANNOT MANAGE THEM ALL.* I have tried and tried to but I just can't. I will get Tia another friend, I'm not just saying it, I will get another rat to go with her. I will post pictures so you can see for yourself. If she would do on her own I wouldn't bother, but as she won't I am going to get one more to go with her. But not 3. Those 3 are sisters so will stay together, but Tia isn't. What if something happened to them, Tia would have to deal without them then, or have a new friend. 4 do take up more time to give attention to, and the shed wouldn't smell as bad with less which must be healthier for them too. Surely it is better to have 2 rats that I can cope with and look after properly than 4 which I can't.


You only have yourself to blame for that I'm afraid, no point in shouting at people that have tried to help you even tho some suspected this would happen :nonod:

Now you have finally admitted it, now is the time to think of your rats, not your wants.

It would be incredibly cruel for Tia to be split from her friends now, if you remember we tried to tell you this when you were going to split before.

I implore you to do what is right by your animals, look for a good home for your group of 4 (sorry a collage doesn't count as a good home, they may care for them the best they can but a collage environment isn't suitable for many animals) then maybe in the future you can look at getting a pair at a later date. But you really, really need to think long and hard because going by all your posts rats just aren't for you :blink:


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## polishrose

blade100 said:


> Why don't you just let them all go together to a new home?
> Why would you want to split up the existing group?


Cos she wants Tia and hates the others clearly


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## Wobbles

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## blade100

Yes rats do like company and usually intros go easy but not all rats take to other rats. For instance I had a group of 11 boys I then added 3 more at a later date but humpfrey hated the last 3! Yet he accepted the others no problem!


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## Lil Miss

wobbles, if you love tia, you will not do that to her, you need to put her needs above your wants, if you want to "get rid" of the other 3, she MUST go with them, to seperate them would be VERY cruel and unfair, if love tia do what is right for her, keep her with her family, they may not be related by blood but that doesnt mean they arent "family" if a couple were to have 1 child naturally then at a later date adopt another, would that mean the 2 "siblings" dont love each other, and it would be fine to seperate them and never let them see each other when they are all they have known? no it wouldnt


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## polishrose

She was a lot younger then wasn't she?Plus she wasn't already bonded to her friends. I can't imagine splitting up my rats FOR NO GOOD REASON!!It's pretty obvious in your posts that you don't like the other 3 rats, in fact I would go as far to say that it seems like you hate and resent them-it comes across very clearly in your posts


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## Micky93

Please please please do not split Tia from her bonded family. That would be incredibly cruel!!!! :scared: 

If you really truly love Tia and don't want the other rats then it would be better to rehome all 4 but NOT to a college. They need a home were they will be free roaming for a substantial amount of time a day.


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## Wobbles

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## Micky93

Wobbles said:


> No I don't hate them, I can't bloody manage them. And I'm trying to sort it. I really don't get the problem here? I WON'T leave Tia on her own if that's what your thinking. If the others died she would have to be without them anyways. Everything gets separated eventually no matter how close they are. If I hadn't been so stupid I'd of only bought another one home anyway.


Yes, but you DID buy more than one home. I really couldn't care what rat you would get after, it is unnecessarily cruel to split her from her bonded group at all!!!! I don't understand what it is you don't understand about that?!?!  :blink: :nonod:

It is cruel and ridiculous (not to mention stupid and immature!!) if you split her from the group. Do not be so selfish and put her first for once. You made the decision, now live with it and grow up.


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## polishrose

So you're going to take away Tia's family, because that's what the 3 sisters are to her now, and force her to be with one other rat who will either be a lot younger than she is, or she will be alone for ages while you search for one her age. And not only will she be alone she will be in a bl**dy shed, so not even getting human company for most of the day. I give up!!!How selfish can you be?You're thinking of yourself in all this. "I can't manage" "I don't want to lose Tia". You clearly don't give a damn about Tia or the others as you're so willing to rip apart this little group. I have nothing more to say to you.


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## Guest

Wobbles said:


> No I don't hate them, I can't bloody manage them. And I'm trying to sort it. I really don't get the problem here? I WON'T leave Tia on her own if that's what your thinking. If the others died she would have to be without them anyways. Everything gets separated eventually no matter how close they are. If I hadn't been so stupid I'd of only bought another one home anyway.


The problem here is you are tearing a bonded group apart, how would you like to be ripped from your family and placed with a stranger?

I know you can't manage, that much is clear but please think of your rats.
I know it is a very hard decision but you need to do what is right..


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## Lil Miss

wobbles please just take a minute, re read my last post, step away from the computer, go out to the shed, look at how tia interacts with her family, spend half an hour out there, watch how they snuggle and play, come back, re read my last post, let the words sink in and if need be go back and repeat the above steps.

you may love tia, but tia loves her family too, she needs them more then she needs you. it takes a big person to admit they are in too deep. but it takes an even bigger person to do whats right.
and in this case it would be to rehome tia privately, not to a collage, with her family.

and if you still want to keep 2 rats, and think you will be able to cope with 2, then go get 2, but 2 are no more work then 4.

we are not saying this to be spiteful, we are not saying it to hurt you, or upset you or belittle you.
we are saying this because it is true

if you truely care for tia, do right by her


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## Wobbles

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## Lil Miss

thats good  if you do decide to rehome them though, please let tia go with them, if you rehome them to some one on here you will be sure to get lots of pictures and you will know they have gone to a good home

think about it, look at things from tias perspective, deep down you know whats right, it just may be very hard to admit at this moment in time


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## simplysardonic

Wobbles said:


> Now listen. I have been struggling with 4 rats for a while, look back through my threads and you'll see. *I HAVE TOO MANY. I CANNOT MANAGE THEM ALL. *I have tried and tried to but I just can't. I will get Tia another friend, I'm not just saying it, I will get another rat to go with her. I will post pictures so you can see for yourself. If she would do on her own I wouldn't bother, but as she won't I am going to get one more to go with her. But not 3. Those 3 are sisters so will stay together, but Tia isn't. What if something happened to them, Tia would have to deal without them then, or have a new friend. 4 do take up more time to give attention to, and the shed wouldn't smell as bad with less which must be healthier for them too. Surely it is better to have 2 rats that I can cope with and look after properly than 4 which I can't.


But you then brought in even more animals, which eat into more of the time you could spend with the rats 



Wobbles said:


> I am trying to do right, I'm trying to get myself out of a hole I've gotten stuck in. I won't rehome them to college then if that's no good.


Please DON'T rehome them at a college, that's no life for an animal being pulled about all day, often by inexperienced or uncaring people


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## Wobbles

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## Lil Miss

rat trains can be arranged, and you may not want to loose tia, but what about her? im pretty sure she doesnt want to loose her ratty family more, she needs them much more then she needs you or you need her, you need to put her needs first

how about we take you away from your family forever, but its ok because we place you with some one else who you dont knowm its the same thing


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## simplysardonic

Wobbles said:


> They won't be going to anyone here, everyone's miles and miles away, they'll go local. I desperately do not want to lose Tia, but I just can't manage, surely that isn't hard to understand? I am not planning on leaving her alone, I'm planning on bonding her to another rat, and the others wouldn't be alone neither.


Why separate a bonded group? Why put them through that unnecessary stress?

Why, if you say you can't manage, did you buy more hamsters?

You're in Wales, yes? What about handing them in at Rhydowen Rodent Refuge? They will find them a decent home
Home -


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## Guest

Wobbles said:


> They won't be going to anyone here, everyone's miles and miles away, they'll go local. I desperately do not want to lose Tia, but I just can't manage, surely that isn't hard to understand? I am not planning on leaving her alone, I'm planning on bonding her to another rat, and the others wouldn't be alone neither.


Oh for goodness sake Wobbles, I have tried to be as understanding as possible on this thread but you are making it very hard 

I don't care if you don't want to lose Tia, you are not what is important here. For a start you do know that there are members on here that are around you right? But then I had already guessed that you wouldn't home to anyone here, not sure why but I had a feeling...

You keep asking us why it is so hard for us to understand your want, well how about you starting trying to understand why this would be devastating for you poor rats.....

Grow a back bone and do what is right for a change rather than blaming everything on other people...................................


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## Eriya

When I got my rats from Pets at Home, one of them turned out to be a female, and I had to return her. The look on my two boys' faces when I came back from the shop broke my heart. Now, I tend to (over) attribute human feelings to objects and non-humans in general, but I can understand that if they're bonded they would be upset to loose each other. I don't want to sound mean, but I really don't think 4 rats is more work than 2, as I had both numbers, and the amount of work hasn't changed. In fact, getting Tia another friend would mean more work for the time when you introduce them, as you'd have to have them housed and free-ranged seperately (and you'd have all the work of introducing them, which I found slightly stressful).


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## Wobbles

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## Guest

Wobbles said:


> Yes it would be 2 cages etc but only for a week or 2, not permanently. If 4 rats are really no more work than 2, how come I could manage Tia just fine when I only had her? And as I've already asked, what happens if the others die? ALL things die so she would be alone then, no choice in the matter. But people go out and buy another one to put with the remaining one and no one says anything like "oh the groups been split up". I am not trying to be awkward, really I'm not, I just don't see what is so wrong with my suggestion, it would be the best *for me*. The alternative is I keep them, but they won't get the care as best they should because I damn well can't manage them. But I suppose that's better than just keeping Tia with one that I could manage. Changed a bit of your post for you, maybe you will see what I am trying to say but I doubt it...


There is a HUGE difference between a partner dying and having to rebond, and you INTENTIONALLY splitting up a bond.....

Read the posts and then continue to do what you want... Don't know why I expected anything else...

You had gained a little respect from me when you admitted that you had taken on too much, that respect has gone again now :nonod:


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## simplysardonic

I just can't understand why 4 rats is apparently so much more work than 2


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## Wobbles

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## Boobub

Are you cleaning them out often enough? Rat wee does smell, but the only reason I can think of it smelling that much is either if their cage is too small for all of them or if they aren't being cleaned regularly/properly. If you're worried though phone your local vet and have a chat to them over the phone about it.


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## Guest

Wobbles said:


> Why because I can't manage and I'm trying to do something about it? Don't kid yourself Bernie, I've never had any respect from anyone from the second I first posted on here simply because my views and opinions don't match other people's, so I highly doubt you'd think any different of me now. Bottom line is I can't manage, 4 rats is 2 rats too many, I need to get the numbers down to 2. Their only 10 months old, I can't be stuck like this for another year or so. I have come up with a solution to fix my difficulty, a good one in my personal view. No in an ideal world they shouldn't be split, but I shouldn't of bought them either, I got into a hell of a lot of trouble for doing so, but I did, I can't manage and I need to sort it. Lesson learnt for next time. And if you could see a mile off that I was struggling, why are you so against me doing something that would ease that? Do you want the 3 off me? I know you'd look after them. You can have them, but they'd have to go via pet courier as your too far away.


That is where you are wrong, I actually told a couple of people that you had gained some respect today actually 

I won't be responsible for splitting a bond, if you were to offer all 4 then we might be able to talk but I won't take 3 it's cruel and I won't be part of it :nonod:

I have explained many times within this thread why I am against you splitting the bond, go and re-read I won't keep repeating...


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## Wobbles

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## simplysardonic

Wobbles said:


> Well you know when you have a dog and think 'I'm gonna get another one, 2 wont make that much difference to one'. Except, when everything suddenly doubles, double the food, double the vet fees, double the cleaning up, double the time, double the work, it suddenly makes a very big difference indeed. One animal in a cage is easier than two. Two are easier than three. Three are easier than four. Four is easier than 5 and so on and so forth. I have overstretched my physical capapbility, and need to reduce it. I am getting no enjoyment out of them at the moment as their just a bunch of hard work.Pets shouldn't be like that, if they are something needs doing about it.


OK, we get you're finding it hard work, but instead of thinking of your rats' needs you've gone & bought new hamsters, how is this in any way fair on your rats?

Surely if any animals should be rehomed it should be the ones who came in last, ergo the hamsters. Then you will have more time to devote to your rats.


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## kate_7590

I know I dont reply to many threads here but I couldnt not reply to this...

I have never owned rats but even I cannot believe you are going to split up a bonded 'family' 

If you love Tia as much as you say you do, you would want to do the best FOR HER...but it just seems that you just want what is best FOR YOU, which is selfish.
It will be the absolute best FOR HER to rehome all 4 of the rats to a home where they will be cared for properly.


*Also**, I dont know if this has been mentioned before but... Do you really keep hamsters in a shed?? Its winter! Surely they'll be far too cold outside and go into hibernation???
I get worried about my 2 hammies if its a little cooler in the spare room and turn the radiator on for them...cant imagine keeping them out in a shed!!!  :nonod:


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## Wobbles

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## Wobbles

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## simplysardonic

Wobbles said:


> No way, I have no problems with the hamsters, I can manage those more than adequately. And as I'm far more suited to them and they me more than any other rodent, they would be ones that would stay if it came to it.


Think I've done well to hold my temper, but this just takes the p*ss

Maybe you should have thought about that before getting rats. All through this thread (& many others) it's all about YOU. You, you, bl**dy you. If you were my daughter I'd be ashamed & have you had those rabbits vaccinated yet? I guess you must have seeing as you had the spare cash to buy more hamsters.

Well, newsflash! it's really not, so I suggest you crawl out of your fluffy bubble, grow a pair & bl**dy well deal with it.

I'm past caring if I get a warning or even a ban, I'm past caring if people think I am being a 'bully', all I care about is these poor rats who haven't asked for the bum deal they've been handed. Do the right thing & rehome ALL the rats, not just the ones that don't fit into your lifestyle. I can honestly say they deserve better than the life they have with you.

And while we're on the subject, stop going & getting more animals, you sound like a pathological hoarder.


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## Guest

Wobbles please pm me if you were serious....


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## LostGirl

Wobbles you can't split a bonded group up for yourself and your needs

Even my 7 and 8 yr children know that, seriously sometimes you need to loose and let go of something you care about if you know deep down that it's for that animals best interest,you have to put them before yourself

Please take on the advice,rather then ignore it Nd have trouble with bonding etc

Maybe rats just are your pet they are hard work, just learn fro
It and don't make the same mistakes


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## Wobbles

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## reallyshouldnotwearjods

hate to say it but these are just words on a screen, how much of this is real?

if its smells like cheese then it mush be cheese ! surely ?


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## reallyshouldnotwearjods

Wobbles said:


> You said you didn't want the 3 of them that you'd only take 4 And it would cost you a bit for a courier you know that right? Having recently used one I can tell you that their not that cheap.


your point, thats Bernies business surely!


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## Eriya

Wobbles said:


> Yes it would be 2 cages etc but only for a week or 2, not permanently. If 4 rats are really no more work than 2, how come I could manage Tia just fine when I only had her? And as I've already asked, what happens if the others die? ALL things die so she would be alone then, no choice in the matter. But people go out and buy another one to put with the remaining one and no one says anything like "oh the groups been split up". I am not trying to be awkward, really I'm not, I just don't see what is so wrong with my suggestion, it would be the best of both worlds for all. The alternative is I keep them, but they won't get the care as best they should because I damn well can't manage them. But I suppose that's better than just keeping Tia with one that I could manage.


That's what I'm curious about as well - how come you could manage one rat fine, and can't manage 4? I genuinely am just curious. True, it does cost more in food, vets, maybe toys, maybe bedding, but I thought your main complaint was time? And time-wise, I just genuinely don't understand why more rats equals more time spent on them?


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## Guest

Wobbles said:


> You said you didn't want the 3 of them that you'd only take 4 And it would cost you a bit for a courier you know that right? Having recently used one I can tell you that their not that cheap.


I won't use a courier, I would organise a run.

As I said if you are serious then pm me.


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## Wobbles

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## Shrap

Tbh Wobbles this thread has really upset me.

How would you like it if your family (the only people you've ever known) left and never came back.

I really thought you were turning over a new leaf and were going to put Tia's needs before your own, but I was wrong 

Please, please let them all find a home together. Do you really want to put her through the stress and anxiety that accompanies breaking a bonded family?


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## reallyshouldnotwearjods

rehome the ratties, never own fluffs again and use shed to store garden stuff!! better for all concerned x


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## hippymama

sometimes animals can be smelly  its not a valid reason for rehoming in my opinion sorry .... would you rehome a dog because it had a bad smell? why not just try getting them a bigger cage? different litter? wiping their toys ect more regularly it surely dosent take that long ? 

at the end of the day Ive never had rats but I know they are social animals and to break up a group of bonded animals seems rather unkind , if you don't like rat smell at least rehome them all together  I have rabbits and I cant imagine having a bonded group/pair and then breaking them up its heartbreaking  I recently had one of my rabbits die who was part of a pair and it was awful to watch the remaining one hopping around looking for her friend


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## reallyshouldnotwearjods

hippymama said:


> sometimes animals can be smelly  its not a valid reason for rehoming in my opinion sorry .... would you rehome a dog because it had a bad smell? why not just try getting them a bigger cage? different litter? wiping their toys ect more regularly it surely dosent take that long ?
> 
> at the end of the day Ive never had rats but I know they are social animals and to break up a group of bonded animals seems rather unkind , if you don't like rat smell at least rehome them all together  I have rabbits and I cant imagine having a bonded group/pair and then breaking them up its heartbreaking  I recently had one of my rabbits die who was part of a pair and it was awful to watch the remaining one hopping around looking for her friend


my husband smells can anyone take him (PLEASE XXX SHE BEGS X )


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## kodakkuki

Wobbles, just last week you may remember reading that I lost one of my boys. I am devastated at the loss, but nothing breaks my heart more than watching Gideon mourn him. If you've never seen a depressed rat it may be difficult to comprehend (and I don't mean that rude) but I'm not just talking a little sad, I mean my baby boy is suffering the same kind of depression that has me currently medicated. And there is not a damned thing I can do about it- and I would do anything at the moment to have my Reid back home snuggling his big brother. I'm now starting my search for some company for Gid, but that won't change the fact that he will still mourn his brother; it will give him a reason to get out of bed and maybe play, but he will always deeply miss Reid.
So when I imagine someone taking THREE siblings from a group of 4, and leaving that little girl all on he own, like Gideon, just because the owner wants to keep her... Well that's the worst thing I can imagine happening to any social creature like a rat. You may be getting her company- a room mate- but that won't replace her sisters.
Please, don't do that to her.


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## grapes

Some animals can be smellier then others yes, but they shouldn't produce that much smell that you are describing. 

Iv'e always had hamsters, sometimes we get the odd one that may be smellier then others so they tend to get cleaned out more often. 

If your rats are making that much smell, you either have a very bad cleaning routine with them and they need to be done an awful lot more or a ventilation problem. 

Wiping down shouldn't take alot of time to do, if you don't have enough time to wipe down then do you have enough time to handle? You say they have freerange time? Whilst there freeranging would a wipe down not be able then? 

Animals esp rats are such social animals. You make a point that if a rat dies they will be on there own, if one was to die they would be with the others, thus the others being able to see/know that rat has passed. If you just take two rats away that is a different ball game. 

If you don;'t have the time, rehome them together for the happiness of them, if you love your original rat sometimes its hard but you need to put her first and rehome them as a group of four. Sometimes we have to make decisions that are difficult for us and sad, but putting your rat first should be priority.


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## elmthesofties

Wobbles, people aren't trying to gang up against you because we're all horrible people who hate you. People are trying to help put your animals in the best situation, because none of this is their fault. I understand that you never intended for this to happen, but even so, you had a choice in all of this. The rats never did. They just have to put up with whatever you choose because they have no power in this situation.

Anyway, this is how I would think about things if I were you:
You've got a bonded group of girls. They spend 24 hours a day together. They groom, sleep, eat, play, etc, together. Very few PEOPLE do that with their own families, so imagine how close they must be.
Bernie has, from what I gather, offered them a permanent safe home with someone who is an expert on all things small and furry. If you rehome all 4 animals, it's going to be difficult for you at first (no denying that) but you will be able to get frequent updates on them. I'm sure Bernie will post lots of pictures so you'll be able to see how they're getting on, and Tia won't be split from a stable family group.
I've heard some real horror stories about rats which have been split and things haven't turned out well in the end.


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## polishrose

This thread has upset me too.I can't understand how 4 rats in one cage is harder than 2 rats in one cage. If they were in separate cages then OK I can understand it but not in the same cage.I have 4 in one cage and 1 baby temporarily in a seperate cage but he will be in with the others asap-I'm looking forward to extra cuddles.
Wobbles it honestly sounds like you just don't like the rats apart from Tia and are blaming them for the smell.You said yourself that Tia didn't smell by herself. Well for a start she was a baby and secondly she was in a big cage all by herself and presumably you spent more time out in the shed with her as it was warmer and lighter in the evenings.
I wouldn't split my boys up if I wasn't coping-they would all be rehomed together as I know it wouldn't be fair on them to be split up. My bitey boy Klaus was so depressed when I got him-you have no idea how much happier he is now with the others.I'm fairly sure he would be devastated if he wasn't with them any more. They sleep together, play together...And Tia won't understand why her family isn't there any more. 
If you're determined to rehome just the 3 sisters then on your head be it. I'm happy to help with transport-I'm in Gloucestershire so not too far from Wales and I could certainly do part of the journey.
Sigh...I do think you're acting like a spoilt brat though...and not putting anybody's needs first except your own  I'm not trying to be nasty but you haven't listened to gentle words,or polite responses,so perhaps a bit of plain speaking is what you need.Personally if I was your Mum, I'd not have allowed you to get the 3 new hamsters, and had you carried on neglecting the rats I'd have rehomed every single one of your pets.I've done just that to my daughters before-they learnt their lesson.


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## zany_toon

Wobbles, it has taken a lot of guts to admit that you have taken on too many and a lot of us applaud you for that. 

With regards to Tia, I do have to agree that staying with her family would be best for her. Whilst my experience is with mice, and not rats, I do know how devastating it is when they lose their family. Whilst you may think that if Tia lost her sisters due to death that it would be easy to find her a new friend, not all animals take to the new company, and sometimes even though they do they just can't get over the loss of their family. I have had a lot of mice in groups that when all their group have died they just couldn't cope without them - three in particular spring to mind. Lyle, one of my little neutered boys lost his girlfriends Tippy, Poppy and Tuppence. He still had his brother, and i introduced them to a few baby girls. Lyle just couldn't get over losing his girlfriends and each and every day I could see him slipping away - he died exactly three weeks after his girlfriend Tuppence. Another, Jones lived with his three brothers all his life. They died one after the other and after Bubble passed I got Jones two neutered friends - they just weren't the same and he wanted nothing to do with them. And just yesterday i found my beautiful girl Lavender had died because she couldn't cope without her best friend Dippy (she was pts due to a tumour exactly 2 weeks ago.) Although my experiences are looking at the side of death, it isn't just then that these things don't work out - I tried to put two groups of girls together before to reduce the number of cages I had and all hell broke out, the girls just didn't get on and would have killed one another if I had left them to it. Tia has developed as close a bond with her sisters as my mice do with one another, please don't deny her that for whatever time she has them for. I know that you will be lost without her as you have a close bond with her - but look how close your bond to her is and imagine that is how Tia feels about her sisters. You don't want to lose Tia, but Tia doesn't want to lose her family. As hard as it will be to let her go, I am sure you know it is the right thing to do. You have just started a new business in a very unstable economy time, one less cage of pets that you feel is taking up a lot of your time will make a massive difference to your time for work, and give you far more time to enjoy those gorgeous new hamsters that you have.


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## Guest

Just so everyone knows Wobbles and I are talking in pm.
I do applaud her for being honest that the rats are too much for her, hopefully we will come to a solution that will work for her rats and her


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## zany_toon

B3rnie said:


> Just so everyone knows Wobbles and I are talking in pm.
> I do applaud her for being honest that the rats are too much for her, hopefully we will come to a solution that will work for her rats and her


You aren't the only one applauding her Bernie, it takes an awful lot of guts to admit to not being able to cope, no matter what it is that you are struggling with. It's something that a lot of people can't do. I hope that you both manage to work something out


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## CRL

Just wow. 
Try looking after 29. I know people with more and they do fine. they work full time and manage that ammount of rats. 
take up bernies offer.


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## Wobbles

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## SarahLily

People have made this point already so I won't rabbit on about it - When my Whitefang's cage mate passed away, he went downhill so quickly and passed away himself 3months later - it didn't help that he was already 3yrs old so an old boy, but it meant he spent his last few months missing Rusks and obviously not understanding why he was left alone.

I know you care about Tia and wouldn't want her to feel like this, confused about why her familiar rat friends have suddenly disappeared. 

There is also the chance, and it isn't just a minute one, that the new rat and Tia won't get on, especially if the new rat is quite a bit younger than her, I think it's much easier to introduce young rats together. What would you do in this case? rehome the new rat and try again?

You've got yourself in a position where all your rats love eachother and get on, instead of breaking that up I really think you should stick with it. I know you say you're struggling, but in the grand scheme of things, 2 more rats isn't that much more work.

The only main difference, aside from more food and vets costs when I'll (but by the sounds of things you already have a great many animals, so are already prepared to cover food and vets costs), the main difference is yes, you'll have to clean the cage more. 

You say you don't have time to clean it every day, but I find it hard to believe no,one does not have the time to wipe down some plastic toys and shelves, or whatever your setup is. 
Do it before you go to bed, or get up half an hour earlier? Or do it instead of watching telly for an extra half hour. Heck, do it while your tea is cooking, or while you're waiting for a bath to run. There is not a single person here I don't believe who does not have, during some point of their day, an idle few minutes. 

Get a wet wipe, wipe down a few for 5minutes, come back later and do the rest. If you have time to watch tv, read a book, or sit on the Internet writing on this forum, you have the small time needed to wipe down the cage accessories.


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## Lopside

You are so lucky to have Bernies offer, she is someone who will be able to give the rats all the time & expert care they could wish for. I know she will post lots of photos of them for you so you can see them grow up. You will not find anyone better equipped for looking after them & you will have the knowledge that they are all fine and thriving....peace of mind 
I think it would be awful for Tia to have her ratty family taken from her, she will wonder what on earth has happened. If you are so busy why not let them all go together, have a few weeks to get christmas out of the way & sort out your new rat cage, then if you still feel you need rats in your life go and look for a nice pair in the new year. I can't think how stressful it would be for an older rat to lose her family and then be single for a few weeks , then go through the stress of bonding into a new group


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## Wobbles

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## simplysardonic

Wobbles said:


> Yes Lopside, I know I am, and if they go anywhere it will be to Bernie, as I know they will be very happy and well cared for. I just want to point out one thing though. Tia is 18 months old, the others are only 10 months. She has not known anyone but me since she was 8 weeks old, and has a proper bond with me, she would miss me, and at her age I really don't think she ought to be made to get used to a new owner. The others on the other hand, are not like Tia, despite all my efforts they have never bonded to me in the same way, they are much more bonded to each other. They are not bothered about me being there like she is. The reason I have suggested what I have, was so that the 3 girls who are happy with each other could remain together, and Tia who is happy around me could stay with me.


You're anthropomorphising Tia- yes, she most likely does have a bond with you, but the bond with her cage mates will be stronger. The reason you possibly feel more of a 'bond' with her is because she was a lone rat for a long time before you got her cage mates. Rats *need* the company of other rats, nothing else will do, no matter how much you think it might.

Do the right thing for Tia & her cage mates, Bernie will offer her a 5 star home


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## LostGirl

Wobbles said:


> Yes Lopside, I know I am, and if they go anywhere it will be to Bernie, as I know they will be very happy and well cared for. I just want to point out one thing though. Tia is 18 months old, the others are only 10 months. She has not known anyone but me since she was 8 weeks old, and has a proper bond with me, she would miss me, and at her age I really don't think she ought to be made to get used to a new owner. The others on the other hand, are not like Tia, despite all my efforts they have never bonded to me in the same way, they are much more bonded to each other. They are not bothered about me being there like she is. The reason I have suggested what I have, was so that the 3 girls who are happy with each other could remain together, and Tia who is happy around me could stay with me.


Honestly she'll miss her cage mates she spends 24/7 with more, she ovs like human company I have one the same she will seek anyone out who walks past (hence the name nosey rosie!) but i couldnt take her away from her friends even tho i missed her the most.


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## kat04kt

Can a moderator close this thread down. 

It's exceptionally nasty, there's swearing and name calling. No one now is offering any new insights or advice. The advice has been given.

This thread has run to ten pages long and is going round in circles. It's neither useful nor helpful and there's plenty of people requiring help on other threads that could use posters time and attention. 

The OP is in discussion currently with someone from the forum. Let the two of them sort it out. 

Sending abusive and nasty responses is not on, no matter how strongly you feel or your personnal views. The OP has come here to seek advice, it has been given ten-fold - now it is up to the owner to make the decision.

I think the OP is well aware of what other people think.


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## Lopside

Wobbles said:


> Yes Lopside, I know I am, and if they go anywhere it will be to Bernie, as I know they will be very happy and well cared for. I just want to point out one thing though. Tia is 18 months old, the others are only 10 months. She has not known anyone but me since she was 8 weeks old, and has a proper bond with me, she would miss me, and at her age I really don't think she ought to be made to get used to a new owner. The others on the other hand, are not like Tia, despite all my efforts they have never bonded to me in the same way, they are much more bonded to each other. They are not bothered about me being there like she is. The reason I have suggested what I have, was so that the 3 girls who are happy with each other could remain together, and Tia who is happy around me could stay with me.


I've never had rats but I have lots of friends who have them. It seems like you have accepted you can part with the three (sorry I don't know their names) but you are struggling with the idea of parting with Tia. If you spend an hour a day with Tia, then she will be on her own for 23 hours!! That's going to be really lonely for her. 
Just reading through all the replies you've had not one person has said it would be ok to split the group, and these people know their rats. 
At a time when rescues are overrun with unwanted animals I think bernies offer is so kind. And like I said, you won't find anyone better to look after them.


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## spoiled_rat

If the rats are rehomed, and a transport run cannot be done to Bernie, I am happy to pay for an animal courier to collect them if needed as a back-up plan.

BTW....I have over 50 rats in my large shed currently (insulated, heated, electricity etc) and there is barely more than a slight pong on clean out day, it's perfectly possible to keep them with next to no smell...


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## Wobbles

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## spoiled_rat

But she is already bonded to her new friends, can you not see that?


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## blade100

You do realise that if you do get Tia a new friend then she would have to be the same age as Tia! And where would you find one of that age? If you get a young baby rat you will end up with it alone when Tia passes away,plus you can't have a baby and an adult rat. That why you were told when you got Tia company to get at least two babies the same age.


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## Shrap

1-2 weeks to get a rat, another couple of weeks for bonding. That's the equivalent of 3.5 years for a human.


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## Wobbles

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## spoiled_rat

Wobbles said:


> Yes it would be younger than Tia, and yes she proberbly would go before it, but I'd obviously get another with that one when the the time came. I wouldn't leave one alone, but I just can't deal with more than 2 at a time.


If they were babies/youngsters, you would need a pair of them though....


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## Wobbles

,................


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## blade100

It is vital that when you get a baby rat you should ALWAYS get a same aged friend as well. It's very important for there up bringing. Tia is an old rat she won't want to play and chase about like baby rats do together! When Tia wants to sleep the baby rat will most likely want to play. If Tia doesn't want to play she may well bite the baby rat. This is why you should always get 2 babies.

Laura just let Tia go with the other 3,then if your so desperate in the future to have more rats just get two.


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## niki87

Been reading through this. Please do not separate Tia from her family...think it was Lil miss who said she needs them more then you...this is true. The stress of everything could cause real damage to her health or even psychologically. I am happy to help with a rat train if needed


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## Ratty man

spoiled_rat said:


> If the rats are rehomed, and a transport run cannot be done to Bernie, I am happy to pay for an animal courier to collect them if needed as a back-up plan.
> 
> BTW....I have over 50 rats in my large shed currently (insulated, heated, electricity etc) and there is barely more than a slight pong on clean out day, it's perfectly possible to keep them with next to no smell...


May I ask what bedding you use for your over 50 rats?


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## Wobbles

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## Lil Miss

Wobbles said:


> I just want to point out, even if I do keep them eventually there will be only one left. So what happens then, because I am not putting myself in such a predicament ever again, if I do get any in future it would only be two. So the one left, wold either stay alone, which is no good, or she'd have to have 1 new rat put with her.


if you stick to 2 rats the same age, when one dies there probably wont be that long left until the other dies, so in that circumstance, if you were adamant you didnt want to rehome that rat, there wouldnt be long left for her on her own, however if you kept tia, and got a younger rat, not only would there be all this issues pointed out with her not wanting to play, the broken bond, the depression, but there would be a good 18 months left for the rattie thats left on its own which wouldnt be fair, and you cant expect an old rat to get on with a pestering baby, babies want to play, oldies want to sleep.


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## elmthesofties

Wobbles said:


> I just want to point out, even if I do keep them eventually there will be only one left. So what happens then, because I am not putting myself in such a predicament ever again, if I do get any in future it would only be two. So the one left, wold either stay alone, which is no good, or she'd have to have 1 new rat put with her.


I'll talk you through the stages that Tia and the new rat will go through if you only get one.
1. Tia will be split from her family who she loves very much. During this time, expect her to get depressed. Several people have reported rats that have been torn away from their friends getting severe behavioral problems, but I'll assume Tia doesn't get any of these because I'm going through the best case scenario here.
2. Tia will be introduced to either an old rat or a baby rat. Introductions to older rats are NOT easy and not guaranteed to work, nor is it easy to get hold of a normal rat Tia's age from an ethical source. So let's supposing you get a baby rat instead. This baby rat will want to play, Tia won't. This will lead to a lot of frustration on Tia's part and the baby rat will not be happy.
3. Baby rat grows up. Tia gets ill. Tia dies. The remaining rat is now an adult, but as Tia was so much older, the remaining rat is now only a year or so old.
4. Remaining rat lives for a year in complete and utter misery because it has no company from other rats (unless you want to start at point 1 again) and eventually dies alone, having spent the last 360 or so days with only an hour or so of attention a day.

The point is that if you get a baby rat, it is almost guaranteed to outlive Tia by a LONG time. If you get 2 baby rats, then the chance of them outliving a cagemate by a long time decrease.
Not quite sure what point you were trying to make, because basic logic lead me to mine.


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## Maltey

Oh wobbles 
It's very hard for us to admit things like this. I completely understand about people having different limits as to what they can cope with.

Everyone here is well aware you won't be leaving Tia alone, but that's not the point. Believe it or not rats have bonds and connections and feelings. Whilst they may not be blood related she will still see the other three as her family.
I don't know if you know but I recently had a litter- taking those boys away from their mother was heartbreaking. Mum was pining through the bars and those baby boys spent a couple of days just sleeping in their hammock. They still had each other but they still missed their mum and their sisters.

It's already stressful enough on rats having to move to a new environment, they don't need the added stress of wondering what happened to their friend. 
These rats will have some bond with you, yes, but as much as we like to think of them as loving us their true friends are the ones they live with 24 hours a day. You would be splitting up a family, please rehome the whole group and get two more if you think rats are the right pet for you.


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## spoiled_rat

Ratty man said:


> May I ask what bedding you use for your over 50 rats?


Usually a mix of Hunter shavings and Green Mile in my deep based cages and just the Green Mile in my Explorer triples.


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## Ratty man

spoiled_rat said:


> Usually a mix of Hunter shavings and Green Mile in my deep based cages and just the Green Mile in my Explorer triples.


Thanks for the reply


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## Wobbles

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## Maltey

But you'd still be splitting up a bonded group. The only option is to rehome all 4 of them. That's what's best for them.


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## salemsparklys

Wobbles said:


> No way, I have no problems with the hamsters, I can manage those more than adequately. And as I'm far more suited to them and they me more than any other rodent, they would be ones that would stay if it came to it.


And this my friends, is why I firmly think people should be home checked before allowed to take on ANY animal


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## LostGirl

Wobbles said:


> Ok, different option. No one obviously thinks splitting Tia from all 3 is a good idea. But what about keeping one with her, and letting Bernie take the other two instead?


It's still splitting a group up him, it's lovely you love Tia so much but you really do just need to step back and see its your feelings and wants not hers x


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## thedogsmother

I do totally get why you want to hold onto Tia, you love her, you love having her around you and you feel that you were pushed into getting her companions, you havent built up the bond with her that you had with Tia and resent the extra work and smell they cause. But (and its a big but) this is where you have to stand up, realise that the mistake was not getting her companions, it went further back when you got Tia, when you knew she would be kept alone.
Im not going to slate you over that, it happens a lot more than you would think in the rat world, and often with people who should know better. What would stand you over others who make this decision is if you do the right thing now, you have an amazing opportunity of a wonderful forever home, where you know she will get vet treatment if needed, out of cage play and all the attention and company she could hope for. I think you need to be her mum now and do what mums do, put her needs before what you want, she will cope fine without you, as hard as that sounds, she simply wont cope well without her rat family. I hope you can find the strength to do this for her.
And just think of the room you would have in the shed with no big rat cage in there


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## Guest

salemsparklys said:


> And this my friends, is why I firmly think people should be home checked before allowed to take on ANY animal


I know people are frustrated but can we think before we post please.
Wobbles knows she has made a big mistake and has owned it, we are in discussions to try to sort out what is best for all concerned.

No one can push Wobbles into doing anything, she needs to make this decision on her own so that she is 100% comfortable with it.
Posts like this at present won't help.


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## A R 3

Wobbles I see where you are coming from - I get that you love Tia ect. But think about it this way if you break the bond with her 3 sisters then you may "not lose her" in body but you'd lose her personalitity and she has feelings too that's what you need to think about. Even when I seperarate my two for about 5 mins to give Flo her meds sometimes even then Tufty gets anxious. Just think about the stress you'd be putting on Tia, and when rats are stressed they can become ill very quickly as well as intros with a new rat and the upset of losing her sisters may be too much for her. I'm not trying to upset you, you just need to get your facts straight, I think you may be missing the point here, or ignoring it.


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## Pinkchi

Wobbles I understand its upsetting for you parting with Tia, but you are only thinking of yourself. You need to do whats best for her and put your feelings aside. She may well enjoy your company, but as long as she is with her friends she will soon get used to someone else. I understand you are attched to her but you need to put them before yourself and your emotions/feeling should not come before whats best for them.
I'm not denying it will be hard for you, but knowing they are all happy together, surely that should be a good thing?

I've had the pleasure of meeting Bernie and her furry crew and I can honestly say she is an outstanding lady. All of her animals come first no matter how she is feeling she always does right by them. They are all incredibly well cared for and happy, I cannot fault her. 

I'm sorry but keeping Tia should not be an option. You need to consider all possibilities and getting a new rat for her as already mentioned just isn't going to be practical long-term.

Please consider all your options. You have come a long way to admit you need help, the help has been offered to you, you just need to swallow your pride and accept it


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## Wobbles

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## salemsparklys

B3rnie said:


> I know people are frustrated but can we think before we post please.
> Wobbles knows she has made a big mistake and has owned it, we are in discussions to try to sort out what is best for all concerned.
> 
> No one can push Wobbles into doing anything, she needs to make this decision on her own so that she is 100% comfortable with it.
> Posts like this at present won't help.


I do think before I post thanks, this is my opinion, I think no one should be allowed to buy any animal without being checked as a suitable owner. Too many people buy without thinking it through and its the animals who get hurt.


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## A R 3

That's great Wobbles! 
Maybe if you get the smell down and have a nice big new cage you'll have more time to think though your thoughts about your rats. So glad to hear your putting them first and may start enjoying them soon


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## Lopside

Sounds like a sensible plan Wobbles. Go for it! Hope everything works out the best for you and your rats


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## polishrose

Maybe try changing the bedding too?What suits one person/animal might not suit another.I know for me a lot of people love finacard-I hate it.It smells.It's Ok for the hamsters and gerbil but I hate it for the rats.I loved megazorb and I like carefresh and am going to try fitch next,so it'll either be megazorb or fitch I think.I'm using up the hemp bedding with the finacard at the moment and definitely notice smells more.


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## Wobbles

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## blade100

With hammocks etc you would need to wash them every 3-4 days.
I have 6 male rats that pee in all of them but I plonk the hammocks inside a pillow case tie it with string or shoe lace and bung on a hot 60c wash with non bio wash powder.


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## Laura123

You could try spraying with white vinegar as this helps with the smell. If you find wiping down a problem could have extra stuff and just swap over for fresh stuff and take the used stuff into the house to steap. I have tap a drop that helps if my boys are a bit pongy the day before clean out. I have also heard that a dish of bicarbonate of soda near ( but not within eating distance) the cage can help. I hope this helps but do seriously think you should take up the rehoming offer of Bernie for the best of Tia and her three sisters. Good luck


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## Wobbles

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## Laura123

I wash the rattie stuff in on a wash on it's own. I have 4 or 5 sets so I can swap easily and know what was on the week before. I also wash my cargo nets in the same wash.


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## blade100

I wash separately because otherwise there'd be tiny rar hairs on my clothes although saying that the pillow cases do hold it in quite well.
And after you could put the washer on a rinse if you are worried there'd be any hairs left inside the washer.


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## Guest

salemsparklys said:


> I do think before I post thanks, this is my opinion, I think no one should be allowed to buy any animal without being checked as a suitable owner. Too many people buy without thinking it through and its the animals who get hurt.


And in this situation that wouldn't have helped, I agree with your opinion in general but if you have been reading the thread properly you will see that steps are being made to sort it.

So comments such as the one you left really don't help, and all they achieve is making Wobbles defensive.

No one is perfect, and it takes a lot of courage to own up to those mistakes.


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## A R 3

Wobbles have you tried litter training your rats? If you probaly have ignore me but if not them maybe you should. All you do is shove a corner litter tray in the corner put a different substrate than the bedding (usaully paper based dust free cat litter works best) brands such as catolet are good. It's really easy, all you do is dunk their poo in it, rats usaully get the hang of it in 1-2 weeks. It really cuts down the poo and the smell in the cage. Just change every 3 or so days and it will smell a lot better but be warned - rats will still probably pee everywhere else


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## Wobbles

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## thedogsmother

Wobbles said:


> I thought perhaps that people would like to know, I've made my decision. Please, please don't hate me for it, it was not an easy decision to make at all, and I agonised over it. I have decided to let Bernie take them, if she still wants to, Tia included. I was in the shed letting them free run and was watching Tia with them, and it became obvious I couldn't split them up. I know I can't manage them, apart from Tia, the others won't let me pick them up properly, hold them or come to me, which tells me that I don't have the time for them. If I did, they would be lovely and tame due to being around me a lot. I simply can't manage them or give them what they truly need. Hamsters I can deal with, I know them, and they come out early evening when I've finished working. They suit me and I suit them. Rats I have realised, don't suit me, they might one day but not right now. They need a lot of attention, a lot of free time and a lot of maintenance, more than I am adequately and easily able to give. And no new cage or amount of cleaning is going to solve that. So I think it would be best if they went to someone who can offer them what they need properly, leaving me with rodents far better suited to me, and I am able to care for easily. I took on more than I could handle when I bought another 3 rats, had I just stuck to one more I wouldn't have had any problems, but loosing Tia is going to be quite enough of a punishment and a reminder to never ever do it again.
> 
> I sat and watched Tia with them, thinking over what everyone had said and it became obvious that I couldn't seperate them, it wouldn't be fair to do so. This wasn't an easy decision to make, it certainly wasn't that I just couldn't be bothered, it's one of the most difficult choices I've ever had to make and it had me in tears. I am heartbroken at the thought of giving Tia up, and they wouldn't go to just anyone either, but I know that Bernie will give her and her sisters the best home any rat could ever want. I just hope she won't hate me for letting her go.
> 
> I hope people can see and understand why I've decided on this, not every animal is suited to everyone, and as I've discovered rats aren't for me. I have tried to do what is right, and I really hope that I have.


Nobody will hate you for this, its an amazingly brave decision, I for one am very proud of you


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## polishrose

You have gone up a hundred percent in my estimation for realising this is the best decision.Nobody's going to hate you for this.They'll probably think as I do that you're very brave to come to this decision.I'm sorry if I was harsh in my previous posts.


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## A R 3

Well done  
At least your knowing they are going to a great home! 
Sorry about Tia but I am glad you have seen Tia's need for her sisters and I don't think anyone will hate you, they'll admire you because you are admitting your mistakes and that is more than most people can do. I think it is good you realized rats aren't for you and instead of letting them suffer gave them to someone who can care for all their needs (and more, I think!) 
Don't be too upset - enjoy your hamsters and gerbils!


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## zany_toon

Wobbles said:


> I thought perhaps that people would like to know, I've made my decision. Please, please don't hate me for it, it was not an easy decision to make at all, and I agonised over it. I have decided to let Bernie take them, if she still wants to, Tia included. I was in the shed letting them free run and was watching Tia with them, and it became obvious I couldn't split them up. I know I can't manage them, apart from Tia, the others won't let me pick them up properly, hold them or come to me, which tells me that I don't have the time for them. If I did, they would be lovely and tame due to being around me a lot. I simply can't manage them or give them what they truly need. Hamsters I can deal with, I know them, and they come out early evening when I've finished working. They suit me and I suit them. Rats I have realised, don't suit me, they might one day but not right now. They need a lot of attention, a lot of free time and a lot of maintenance, more than I am adequately and easily able to give. And no new cage or amount of cleaning is going to solve that. So I think it would be best if they went to someone who can offer them what they need properly, leaving me with rodents far better suited to me, and I am able to care for easily. I took on more than I could handle when I bought another 3 rats, had I just stuck to one more I wouldn't have had any problems, but loosing Tia is going to be quite enough of a punishment and a reminder to never ever do it again.
> 
> I sat and watched Tia with them, thinking over what everyone had said and it became obvious that I couldn't seperate them, it wouldn't be fair to do so. This wasn't an easy decision to make, it certainly wasn't that I just couldn't be bothered, it's one of the most difficult choices I've ever had to make and it had me in tears. I am heartbroken at the thought of giving Tia up, and they wouldn't go to just anyone either, but I know that Bernie will give her and her sisters the best home any rat could ever want. I just hope she won't hate me for letting her go.
> 
> I hope people can see and understand why I've decided on this, not every animal is suited to everyone, and as I've discovered rats aren't for me. I have tried to do what is right, and I really hope that I have.


Oh Wobbles, that must have been a terribly hard decision for you to make, but I believe that you have made the right one for your girls. It was very brave of you to do so and look at what Tia and her sisters needed over what you wanted, and not everyone is strong enough to do that. Tia and the girls might miss you for a while, but they will love being with Bernie and she can update you on them regularly. You have made a wise, very mature decision (especially for some one who has admitted herself that is prone to making a decision without thinking.) well done Wobbles xx I hope that doing so helps you relax and enjoy the animals that you are keeping more, because not enjoying one animal has a big impact on all of them.


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## Flamingoes

I've read this thread from the start and kept up to date with it.

You've made such a brave and selfless decision. It's a credit to you


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## Lopside

Aw I am sure you have made the right decision for your girls. Bernie will post loads of photos and give you lots of updates I'm sure. Then when you see your rats happy and settled you will know you have done the right thing.


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## GerbilNik

Well done for putting your rats first. I'm sure it was a difficult decision, but one for the best.


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## blade100

Laura Well done on deciding to let bernie take all 4.
As you've said you've watched them and how Tia interacts with the others.
It wouldn't have mattered one bit if rats weren't highly social animals that crave ratty companionship but they do and this is the best thing you could do for Tia and her sisters.

Bernie will give them the very best home,food,free range,and most important updates for you! Bernies always posting pics of her furies on here.

I know it feels hard at this time but just think how much more human interaction they will be getting and that they'll be inside the house.

I have a hamster and I understand how different there needs are!
Mo my Syrian does as she pleases and she comes out when she wants to mostly at night. But my ratties they want attention all the time! They require more cleaning,different varieties of foods,hammock changes,and of course at least an hour a day free range. So I do understand what you mean when you say you can manage your hammies better.

Again Laura well done to you.
It will be a huge weight off your shoulder not having to worry about your ratties now that bernie will be looking after them.
Have a nice Xmas 
Amy x


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## Wobbles

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## reallyshouldnotwearjods

YAY totally the right decision - the second best decision you can now make is maybe not have any critters for a while x


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## kodakkuki

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> YAY totally the right decision - the second best decision you can now make is maybe not have any critters for a while x


I dont think thats fair. Wobbles knows rats aren't for her, but the others who don't need So much stimulation are better suited- the way I read your commen you are wanting her to rehome everyone? I doubt she is getting any more any time soon, but that doesn't mean she needs to be pet less.

Wobbles, that was a hard choice- I know it was. But as you know it's the best thing you can do... 
Happy holidays o you and your furries!


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## reallyshouldnotwearjods

kodakkuki said:


> ]I dont think thats fair[/B]. Wobbles knows rats aren't for her, but the others who don't need So much stimulation are better suited- the way I read your commen you are wanting her to rehome everyone? I doubt she is getting any more any time soon, but that doesn't mean she needs to be pet less.
> 
> Wobbles, that was a hard choice- I know it was. But as you know it's the best thing you can do...
> Happy holidays o you and your furries!


My comment is my opinion, it does not have to be fair x I am a straight talker, and have no fluffy edges x


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## Wobbles

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## polishrose

Actually I agree with Wobbles here.She has realised that the rats don't suit her and her needs but that doesn't mean that hamsters are the same.They do have totally different requirements...I have lots of pets-I had budgies once but wouldn't have them again-doesn't mean I need to rehome all my pets.I think you're being a bit unfair.


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## elmthesofties

I have to agree with Wobbles. Sometimes I believe a tough approach is best, but Wobbles has been willing to listen. This obviously wasn't an easy decision to make, but Wobbles made it anyway. A bit of support would be nice, eh?

We ALL have different things to offer to our animals and different things that we want. Nobody in the world is perfectly suited to every animal out there, and even the most extensive research isn't always able to tell you whether or not you will enjoy keeping a certain animal.


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## Lil Miss

Wobbles said:


> Thanks Amy, have a good Xmas yourself. Thank you to everyone who has offered help and advice on this thread (and others), it all got taken into account in helping me make the decision I have. In fact, half was down to every ones comments, and the other half down to watching them together. Lil Miss, I think it was you who told me to go and just watch them for a while, see how they are together, which is what I did last night. At this moment there is too much going on so I am just going to let Christmas and New year go out of the way first, and for everything to go back to normal, then it can be sorted out properly how to get them to Bernie.


wobbles, i would like to take this moment to say a big well done, i know this cant have been an easy choice for you to make, but i honestly belive it will be best for both you and the ratties. thank you for listening.

you have gone up 10 fold in my opinion, enjoy christmas with the ratties, spoil them rotten over the holidays, and then they can start their new lives with bernie in the new year


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## reallyshouldnotwearjods

I repeat - My comment is my opinion, it does not have to be fair x I am a straight talker, and have no fluffy edges x and you dont have to like it x


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## polishrose

There's being a straight talker, and there's being downright mean....


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## reallyshouldnotwearjods

you see it as mean I do not, that is a difference of opinion - you dont agree thats fine, have said my point and thats that x not going to argue - Merry Christmas to everyone x


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## Lavenderb

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> I repeat - My comment is my opinion, it does not have to be fair x I am a straight talker, and have no fluffy edges x and you dont have to like it x


You'll find you won't last long here with your sharp pointy edges...I'm known for not sugar coating shite, but there's a place for a little friendliness and thats here.
Merry Christmas


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## Lil Miss

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> I repeat - My comment is my opinion, it does not have to be fair x I am a straight talker, and have no fluffy edges x and you dont have to like it x


so am i, but sometimes its just better to bite your tounge :wink: wobbles has made the right decsision here, and rather then slating her for past mistakes we should be happy that she has decided on the right thing, for her rats, not the right thing for her self.

im probably the last person here, or atleast one of them, that any one would think would stand up for wobbles, but in this case, i think your comment was more then just a tad out of line.

in this case wobbles has learnt from her mistakes, granted its better to learn before mistakes are made, but atleast she is now making the effort to make things right, nit picking and saying things like that can, in some cases, cause people to change their mind and stick their toes in just to spite the person who made the nasty comments, so surely its better to use a tit of tact then come down like a ton of bricks and possibly undo what has been achieved? however as hurt as wobbles may be my your comment, im sure she wont take it like that


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## polishrose

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> you see it as mean I do not, that is a difference of opinion - you dont agree thats fine, have said my point and thats that x not going to argue - Merry Christmas to everyone x


I didn't realise we had a perfect person in our midst who has never made a mistake and never realised she was wrong about anything....I don't SEE it as mean..IT IS MEAN.Isn't it funny how those who pride themselves on plain speaking with "no fluffy edge"s are invariably the rudest and least tactful?I speak my mind too, and so do others, as can be seen on this thread, but I give credit where credit is due, and your comment was neither helpful nor necessary nor even true.I suggest a large dose of "if you can't say anything constructive then shut up" is in order.


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## A R 3

polishrose said:


> I didn't realise we had a perfect person in our midst who has never made a mistake and never realised she was wrong about anything....I don't SEE it as mean..IT IS MEAN.Isn't it funny how those who pride themselves on plain speaking with "no fluffy edge"s are invariably the rudest and least tactful?I speak my mind too, and so do others, as can be seen on this thread, but I give credit where credit is due, and your comment was neither helpful nor necessary nor even true.I suggest a large dose of "if you can't say anything constructive then shut up" is in order.


I agree - don't start a fight where it is not needed especially this close to christmas! Tsk tsk 
Anyway-merry Christmas everyone who reads this thread!  <|:[D (that's the closest I could get to a picture of Santa!)


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## Wobbles

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## kodakkuki

Wobbles said:


> There's straight talking and then there's a lack of tact.
> 
> I already have paid the price for not doing things properly from the beginning, loosing my beloved Tia. That is the biggest punishment I could have, never again am I going through something like this, it hurts too much. I sure as hell did not expect this to happen, I have never had problems with rodents before, and I've had most types. It has taken me by surprise just how different rats and their care are to other rodents, and it does not match what I can offer them. My rat posts show this. I am rather hurt however, by your assumption that because I can't manage them, I should not keep any of my hamsters/gerbils either, not one post I've made suggests I have the slightest problem meeting their needs. Indeed with a animal suited to me, I can look after one just as well as anyone else here. Because_they_ suit my requirements. Not of being holdable or trainable etc, but requirements that are more important on both sides, being awake at a time I can actually see to them, that I have the proper space needed for them, and don't need such a strict cleaning schedule that I can't provide. I would hope that people would be able to see that just because one animal is unsuitable, doesn't mean all of them are.
> 
> However, regardless of what you may think, I _know_ I can look after the others, whereas I couldn't the rats but didn't want to admit on a pet forum that I was finding them such hard work, so no, I'm not going to change my mind over handing them over out of spite because of your comment. That won't benefit anyone. Bernie and I are PM'ing to sort things, and they will be going to her as I said they will. * I'm just glad that no body is annoyed or hating on me for giving them up*.


Most of us get how hard a decision this is; when i was Very ill a few years back i had to rehome two rattie boys (who were supposed to only be with me temporarily anyway) and it damn near broke me. but as you say, you know they will be safe, loved and cared for 100%... and thats all anyone could ever hope for for their friends. 
***christmas hugs to all!!***


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## Micky93

Firstly, i just wanted to say a huge well done to Wobbles. We all know how hard it is to lose beloved pets, but just try and think that they'll always be happy and healthy, and I'm sure Bernie will update you with photos etc. you've put them first and that is a huge thing to do. 

Try and enjoy them over Christmas, you are doing the right thing and you have my respect xxxxx


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## happysaz133

You've been very selfless Wobbles, in doing what is right for you, and for your rats. Spend plenty time with them, take some photos, and enjoy Christmas xxx


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