# This section gets worse



## Guest (Apr 1, 2010)

So many pet breeders with no idea what they are doing and a few of you poor souls struggling to give support where you can.
I'm so glad I hardly ever look in here any more


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

To be honest this is a section I tend to skip  I know nothing about breeding I admit, except why not to, but whenever I have been peeking here I have managed to wind my self up soooo much!!!!

There are some good breeders here I agree and credit to them to offer support and help when needed when really people would need a slap instead.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I usually avoid this place like the plague. I don't know much about breeding myself but some of the topics here are ridiculous.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

some people do make you want to scream but there will always be idiots out there. 
At least we know were trying to help the DOGS whenever we can


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

i am trying to stay away from the breeding section as much as i can lately... 
There are so many people breeding irresponsible (and lately so many litters are born and so many threads involving pet breeders) and fair enough and all credit to those that take the time and advice them and guide them to help them out etc but then people congratulating them on having brought a litter (irresponsibly) to the world is just not my cup of tea  
All pups are cute, not all breeders deserve a pat on their back though ....


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## ninja (Jan 4, 2009)

and dont reckon it will ever get any better :frown:


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

So ok your slamming in to pet breeders 

wats the definition of a pet breeder in your opinion and havent you any true convictions to address this in the threads that have obviously upset you all, rather than make a thread where all pet breeders will feel upset. 

i think this is shoddy and if you have an angst with wat people are doing you should have the courage of your convictions to say so to the person face to face so to speak


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

rona said:


> So many pet breeders with no idea what they are doing and a few of you poor souls struggling to give support where you can.
> I'm so glad I hardly ever look in here any more


Oh so well said Rona!!! :thumbup:

I have avoided this section recently big time...........if i didn't i would have had a ban for sure!! Because i have a huge influx of ''breeders'' that are not great.........and no i am not ''afraid'' to say that!

There are a few amazing breeders on here (you know who you are) who seem to get ''over shadowed'' by the not so great.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

mitch4 said:


> So ok your slamming in to pet breeders
> 
> wats the definition of a pet breeder in your opinion and havent you any true convictions to address this in the threads that have obviously upset you all, rather than make a thread where all pet breeders will feel upset.
> 
> i think this is shoddy and if you have an angst with wat people are doing you should have the courage of your convictions to say so to the person face to face so to speak


I certainly have nothing against pet breeders! Not a jot!

As long as they do it ethically, responsibly etc then i actually applaud them!

If a pet breeder does the proper health tests, only breeds from those with excellent temprements etc etc (literally blah blah blah! :lol

Then what is wrong with that?

I hate the fact some people seem to think you have to have _champions_ or alike to make a good pup??? I have said this twice today on here already!!

Why should only ''show'' or ''working'' people breed?? (not aimed at anyone! I talk to myself in real life and on here :lol


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## Oenoke (Oct 17, 2009)

Yes, this is the 1st litter I have bred, but I have done it responsibly, I have had all the health tests done for my breed and used a stud dog that has also. I had a list of 7 people (incl myself) that wanted a puppy from my bitch before I bred her. My bitch has an excellent temperament, she is a registered PAT dog and loves people and other dogs and she competes at agility, not a Champion, grade 3, but she nearly won out last year by getting a 2nd place in agility out of 200 dogs and was in the DINAS final, after getting 7 places out of 8 runs in the week. I have found this site very helpful and yes, I will be asking for help and maybe some of my questions may seem a little silly to people that have been breeding for years, but everyone has to start somewhere!


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2010)

mitch4 said:


> So ok your slamming in to pet breeders
> 
> wats the definition of a pet breeder in your opinion and havent you any true convictions to address this in the threads that have obviously upset you all, rather than make a thread where all pet breeders will feel upset.
> 
> i think this is shoddy and if you have an angst with wat people are doing you should have the courage of your convictions to say so to the person face to face so to speak


This is from a thread that I made a long time ago.

Met a lady yesterday while out on our walk, I know her vaguely.
She has three Labradors. One neutered black dog and two chocolate bitches.
She had a litter last year from the older bitch, successfully reared and had homes waiting. She is now planning to breed from the younger bitch, which is one of last years pups.
It will not be until the beginning of next year when the bitch will be two.
This lady does all the health tests available and keeps an eye on the ancestry of her dogs, just incase any problems come to light health wise. She already has several homes lined up for the planned litter.
She does not show these dogs, neither does she work them, and to be perfectly honest, they are not the greatest looking Labs that I have seen, BUT this lady does as much as she possible can to make sure her pups have the best start in life and the best chance of a long healthy life.


This is my opinion on a good pet breeder, and I would not slam any breeder who behaved like this.
I was just stating that there seems to be a lot around again that don't seem to have the welfare of their puppies or bitch as their main focus.

I cannot say anything face to face, as this is against forum rules


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2010)

Oenoke said:


> Yes, this is the 1st litter I have bred, but I have done it responsibly, I have had all the health tests done for my breed and used a stud dog that has also. I had a list of 7 people (incl myself) that wanted a puppy from my bitch before I bred her. My bitch has an excellent temperament, she is a registered PAT dog and loves people and other dogs and she competes at agility, not a Champion, grade 3, but she nearly won out last year by getting a 2nd place in agility out of 200 dogs and was in the DINAS final, after getting 7 places out of 8 runs in the week. I have found this site very helpful and yes, I will be asking for help and maybe some of my questions may seem a little silly to people that have been breeding for years, but everyone has to start somewhere!


I applaud you, you are not in the least who I was talking about, and if you see my previous post you will see that.
Sorry if I offended you,


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I'm confused as to the point of this thread,in one breath some are saying they stay away from this section and yet they are replying to this thread.For those that are " pet breeders" i'm glad there are still good members on here that help out when new pups arrive.And i think any new life is worth celebrating.*


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *I'm confused as to the point of this thread,in one breath some are saying they stay away from this section and yet they are replying to this thread.For those that are " pet breeders" i'm glad there are still good members on here that help out when new pups arrive.And i think any new life is worth celebrating.*


There was a bit of Trolling going on last night Jan, which got us all looking when we normally wouldn't


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## Bearpaw (Dec 10, 2009)

I think this will always be a controversial subject. I can understand what you are saying,but at the same time,i feel its very important for people who do have litters imminant that they can come on and get some advise.Obviously,their vet is their first port of call,but we all know vets can,at times,be useless.Often emotional support can be of great help.
Its also worth remembering,most of the people who have pups are doing/trying to do it responsibly,even if it began as a mishap.Some may even go on to be top breeders!! Every breeder is a novice to start with.
Admitedly,there is the odd numpty out there,that even id like to have words with,but itd do no good anyway,so iv learnt to live and let live.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

mitch4 said:


> So ok your slamming in to pet breeders
> 
> wats the definition of a pet breeder in your opinion


i think when someones mentions pet breeder everyone have their own individuall definition of them.

When i read "pet breeder" i think of someone who takes their pet without any or little knowledge, no health tests and no concern for the dogs suitability to the neighbours dog or just breeds with their own male in the house.

Showing or working is not essential to breed good dogs, so those not doing any of that but doing everything else by the book including getting their dog at least assessed by someone in the breed to rule out any major faults if its someone who is enterily new to the breed, can also be seen as a pet breeder i guess....


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## Pug_D (Feb 21, 2010)

Surely even the top breedes started out at the bottom asking questions??

It actually saddens me quite alot to think that people might be reading the questions I post and thinking badly of me for asking. Surely its better to find out the best way than to wing it, or even worse not know the answer at all?

This place has been invaluable to me, its shown me what a responsibility breeding is and made me want to set myself apart from the people just selling their puppys in the free ads!

Its brought to light things I've not thought of, things that haven't been written in all the books I've read and I'll be a better breeder for knowing them.

Its even made me totally rethink things that I have classed as 'sorted.

I won't go into what but I'd like to thank 'cat_crazy' for that. i've emailed that breeder I mentioned and possibly use their dog as a stud.

I think its quite sad that people who are really trying are looked down upon just for not being part of 'the show world'. or for simply being 'first timers'


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## alaun (Jul 21, 2009)

I like to hear about other people's personal experiences. I think it's a very useful tool. It can put some people off breeding but also give insight to issues that other's may have had. Sometimes the issues aren't mentioned in books or by mentors, so sometimes sharing experiences is the only way of expanding knowledge. That is surely a good thing.

Of course there are posts that are sometimes irritating, but I just don't bother responding (and that could be said for all the sections).


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2010)

Pug_D said:


> Surely even the top breedes started out at the bottom asking questions??
> 
> It actually saddens me quite alot to think that people might be reading the questions I post and thinking badly of me for asking. Surely its better to find out the best way than to wing it, or even worse not know the answer at all?
> 
> ...


If people are asking questions before they breed then in my book they are at least trying to learn and be responsible.
Also if the litter is imminent then obviously it is too late to change things, and the best that can be done here, is to support the bitch and puppies


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Pug_D said:


> Surely even the top breedes started out at the bottom asking questions??
> 
> It actually saddens me quite alot to think that people might be reading the questions I post and thinking badly of me for asking. Surely its better to find out the best way than to wing it, or even worse not know the answer at all?
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone has anything against people coming here and asking questions... the people who post often in here probably appreciate it when people come to ask real questions because it shows that they care about what they're doing and want to do as much research as they can before embarking on their breeding journey.

I think the kind of people this thread is aimed at is things such as the SBT thread from last night which got closed - people who ask things such as whether it is okay to breed from a rescued SBT (or rather telling us that they plan to get a rescue SBT to breed from!), or whether they will make a lot of money out of their litter.... we can't be sure whether these things are wind ups or not, which makes it all the more infuriating for people.

I understand where you're coming from Rona, I used to enjoy reading this section and following threads through births, but I haven't paid any attention to it at all for a good 6 months now, there used to be some cracking breeders on here giving good advice but many of them seem to have given up and left completely, the BYB's seem to be taking over now and there's just a few experienced breeders left to deal with this influx of morons wanting to breed their rescue dog, or breed their dog cos they want a puppy just like it....


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## gesic (Feb 19, 2009)

I dont think anyone is being personal here.
Its more a ref to those people who look at breeding purely as a money making scheme.
If u are looking at breeding because u are passionate about ur breed, u own a dog/bitch that has passed all health scemes available have a list as long as ur arm of people 110% commited to having a pup and are doing it because u feel that u are improving the quality of that breed by using selected dogs then u r doing it for the right reasons.
However if you think my bitch will produce "x" amount of pups thats "y" amount of money for me then u shouldnt have pets.
Those r the people that I feel Rona is aiming at


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

If the bitch is in whelp and someone needs help and advise there is no point ignoring it. 

If someone asks for help and advise before the mating takes place you can advise them on the costs the health risks and everything else but if they are determined to have a litter there is nothing you can say that will change it.

I had someone phone me last summer with a bitch I bred wanting advise on a stud dog for her. I advised them to forget breeding and have her spayed to many people I know have had litters and are struggling to sell the pups Whether they took my advise or went to someone else who was happy to let them use their dog I don't know. I hope they listened to me but if they are determined to let the bitch have a litter theirs not a lot anyone can do to persuade them not too. I told them about the expence and the risks but whether it sank in I don't know.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Just be grateful that the days have gone by when even vets recommended a litter before spaying any bitch.


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

well said rona.

i darent post my thoughts as i would be banned instantly.

but people wouldnt get their daughters pregnant every year but think nothing of using dogs as puppy factories.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*As a pet forum we will allways get people asking for advice or help and thats just what we should give them and not pass judgement.If people don't like what they read then don't respond to the thread.Plain and simple to me.*


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

i agree that if you are breeding your dogs then it must be done responsibly with the health and welfare of the dogs paramount but this thread was non specific and i felt was not conducive to encourageing good first time breeders to feel comfortable in asking relevant questions no matter how trivial they may appear, every quetion needs an answer and we should be willing to help, im sure all of us can just see the poor breeding thats going on and leave it behind, obviously the thread that was closed last night was possibly out to rile or just an irrisposible person with no thought for the dog but i havent read it yet so cant comment


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

Freyja said:


> If the bitch is in whelp and someone needs help and advise there is no point ignoring it.
> 
> If someone asks for help and advise before the mating takes place you can advise them on the costs the health risks and everything else but if they are determined to have a litter there is nothing you can say that will change it.
> 
> I had someone phone me last summer with a bitch I bred wanting advise on a stud dog for her. I advised them to forget breeding and have her spayed to many people I know have had litters and are struggling to sell the pups Whether they took my advise or went to someone else who was happy to let them use their dog I don't know. I hope they listened to me but if they are determined to let the bitch have a litter theirs not a lot anyone can do to persuade them not too. I told them about the expence and the risks but whether it sank in I don't know.


Totally agree Freyja. If the bitch is unfortunatly just about to whelp then I feel we should help (wether health tested or not) and assist where ever is needed for the bitches sake and not push the owner away. That is not saying it is right because it is so not but...

When someone comes on asking about mating their bitch then yes lets advise again but this time with the art of learning regarding health testing, costs, dangers, homing etc.

As Frejya said we can only try but at the end of the day once the computer is turned off they will do what they want to do...at least we know we have advised to the best of our knowledge and hopefully saved 1 unhealthy litter being born or more additions to the rescue centres.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

If I can post as a prevantative measure to an irresponsible mating taking place then I will, try to advise on the benefits of breeding from health tested dogs, if its after the fact, the bitch is pregnant, well I have eased off posting in threads like that to be honest, unless the dogs are health tested and the breeder has tried to do their best. It is rare I post congrats on any of the litters I know this sounds harsh, but if the pups are from dogs that are not suitable to be bred from, ie no health tests done, I dont think congratulations are in order, and I for one certainly wont pretend I am happy about it and pretend it is wonderful, I feel far too many come on here and announce they are doing such a such a breeding, without any health tests done at all, go a head with it the pups are born, and a multitude of people post congrats about the birth, there is nothing to congrat about pups that almost certainly carry serious health issues.

Mo


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

moboyd said:


> If I can post as a prevantative measure to an irresponsible mating taking place then I will, try to advise on the benefits of breeding from health tested dogs, if its after the fact, the bitch is pregnant, well I have eased off posting in threads like that to be honest, unless the dogs are health tested and the breeder has tried to do their best. It is rare I post congrats on any of the litters I know this sounds harsh, but if the pups are from dogs that are not suitable to be bred from, ie no health tests done, I dont think congratulations are in order, and I for one certainly wont pretend I am happy about it and pretend it is wonderful, I feel far too many come on here and announce they are doing such a such a breeding, without any health tests done at all, go a head with it the pups are born, and a multitude of people post congrats about the birth, there is nothing to congrat about pups that almost certainly carry serious health issues.
> 
> Mo


I do take your point here my first post wasnt really to do with what was being said in relation to poor breeding, it was just trying to highlight the thread had lumped everyone together and may put of the good ones asking questions
and i think sometimes congratulations comes about being given to possibly people whov not bred responsibly due to when we all see that pups have been born its kind of natural instinct to say congratulations, if wev read the whole story of the pups and there has been poor breeding along the way then it would be less likely a person would post congratulations


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

But I personally dont think this thread would put people off that are breeding correctly, the first post said and I quote "So many *pet* breeders with *no idea *what they are doing " if breeders do their research and study about the health tests in their chosen breed, somewhere along the line they will learn about the breeding aspect, those breeders will KNOW they were not included in the original comment because they will KNOW they are doing things correctly, and are just posting about the odd hiccup.

mo


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

moboyd said:


> If I can post as a prevantative measure to an irresponsible mating taking place then I will, try to advise on the benefits of breeding from health tested dogs, if its after the fact, the bitch is pregnant, well I have eased off posting in threads like that to be honest, unless the dogs are health tested and the breeder has tried to do their best. It is rare I post congrats on any of the litters I know this sounds harsh, but if the pups are from dogs that are not suitable to be bred from, ie no health tests done, I dont think congratulations are in order, and I for one certainly wont pretend I am happy about it and pretend it is wonderful, I feel far too many come on here and announce they are doing such a such a breeding, without any health tests done at all, go a head with it the pups are born, and a multitude of people post congrats about the birth, there is nothing to congrat about pups that almost certainly carry serious health issues.
> 
> Mo


good post! Totally agree.

I also find so many threads are popping up like " i want to mate my dog, when is the best time" and people advice without any questioning about if the person has done any health tests prior to this mating etc... They could just as well be advising a puppyfarmer or a byb.

There were a bunch of people who would ask the health test question before advising such threads but it often ended up in threads closing/deleting and it doesnt happen anymore and i find this quite concerning that such advice is given out just to anybody tbh


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

moboyd said:


> But I personally dont think this thread would put people off that are breeding correctly, the first post said and I quote "So many *pet* breeders with *no idea *what they are doing " if breeders do their research and study about the health tests in their chosen breed, somewhere along the line they will learn about the breeding aspect, those breeders will KNOW they were not included in the original comment because they will KNOW they are doing things correctly, and are just posting about the odd hiccup.
> 
> mo


maybe your right and i was being a little touchy but there are some harsh comments from some not yourself or maybe any posters that have contributed to this thread but on here at times there are people who hold a holier than though stance about all different topics not just breeding. i think maybe i felt this was starting to go that route but you are right that at times its best to put off people breeding who quite clearly have done no research what so ever as this should not be your first port of call on such an important matter


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## bibbleyboo (Mar 24, 2010)

I feel quite saddened by this thread, having just had a first time litter and all the lovely support that i thought I was getting - to read this makes me thik this was not really meant as I thought. Firstly, I did everything I thought necessary and secondly, all my puppys are placed with people I know who wanted a pub because they know my dog and love her and I in turn know they will give her a great home. What is wrong with that? Not everyone wants a show dog - a lot of people want a loving pet. For me its not about the money, I am happy to give them away, people asked me to breed to continue her good traits and loved every minute (so far). ALSO my breeder who is very irritated at me having pups I know gave a pub to a friend of mine who treated her badly, I told the breeder this and she agreed to take the dog back and gave her a different dog, a bit of a strange dog they they may not be able to sell - sorry but that disgusted me more! and all that from a very reputable breeder..


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2010)

Natik said:


> good post! Totally agree.
> 
> I also find so many threads are popping up like " i want to mate my dog, when is the best time" and people advice without any questioning about if the person has done any health tests prior to this mating etc... They could just as well be advising a puppyfarmer or a byb.
> 
> There were a bunch of people who would ask the health test question before advising such threads but it often ended up in threads closing/deleting and it doesnt happen anymore and i find this quite concerning that such advice is given out just to anybody tbh


I think if one person asked the health test question and it didn't end up as it used to, with several breeders seemingly interrogating a new member on this, there shouldn't be a problem with admin.
You have to admit that it did get out of hand last time, and some perfectly decent but ignorant (that meant as ignorant of breeding ethics not as people) were put off from asking questions and therefore gaining knowledge


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

rona said:


> I think if one person asked the health test question and it didn't end up as it used to, with several breeders seemingly interrogating a new member on this, there shouldn't be a problem with admin.
> You have to admit that it did get out of hand last time, and some perfectly decent but ignorant (that meant as ignorant of breeding ethics not as people) were put off from asking questions and therefore gaining knowledge


yeah, but now nobody even bothers asking. The advice is just given out on a golden plate how to mate the bitch and what to look out for to have a succesfull mating without any consideration if the litter is going to be bred responsibly...

I would love to see people having to fill out a little questioniare before being allowed to post in the breeding section as to breed, sex, what health tests and then people wouldnt have to interrogate as simple acceptable qeustions come across as such so often on here....


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2010)

Natik said:


> yeah, but now nobody even bothers asking. The advice is just given out on a golden plate how to mate the bitch and what to look out for to have a succesfull mating without any consideration if the litter is going to be bred responsibly...
> 
> I would love to see people having to fill out a little questioniare before being allowed to post in the breeding section as to breed, sex, what health tests and then people wouldnt have to interrogate as simple acceptable qeustions come across as such so often on here....


I think that it a step too far, people need help with theirs dogs, how would you choose who to turn away?
I know we have had some who have faced having litters through no choice or fault of their own


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Natik said:


> yeah, but now nobody even bothers asking. The advice is just given out on a golden plate how to mate the bitch and what to look out for to have a succesfull mating without any consideration if the litter is going to be bred responsibly...
> 
> I would love to see people having to fill out a little questioniare before being allowed to post in the breeding section as to breed, sex, what health tests and then people wouldnt have to interrogate as simple acceptable qeustions come across as such so often on here....


*Isn't it better to give people the help they ask for instead of trying to push our own oppions on them? The cruel fact of life is, we learn by our mistakes.Life is never a bed of roses.*


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

rona said:


> I think that it a step too far, people need help with theirs dogs, how would you choose who to turn away?
> I know we have had some who have faced having litters through no choice or fault of their own


why is that?
It would only stop people having to "interrogate" but could still advice on those things missing if someone states they havent had any health tests done for instance.

Im not saying they are not allowed to ask for advice and aint allowed to post but i find this info is important if someone asks for a mating going to happen.

Nobody has to be turned away, why should they....


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Isn't it better to give people the help they ask for instead of trying to push our own oppions on them? The cruel fact of life is, we learn by our mistakes.Life is never a bed of roses.*


advising people on carrying out health tests before a mating has nothing to do with forcing an opinion on someone... 

just reread ur second part of ur post... are u saying u would advice someone so they produce a litter of sick puppies so they can make a mistake and learn out of that for the next time? I would rather prevent such a thing ....
Or did i misunderstood ur post


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Natik said:


> advising people on carrying out health tests before a mating has nothing to do with forcing an opinion on someone...


*I didn't mention health tests, but by your reply you have clearly made the point that in YOUR oppion thats the top priority.(sp) Whereas mine would be to give the advice that was asked for.How many people have we seen come onto the forum and ask a question only to be bombarded with god knows how many questions?*


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

As far as I'm concerned someone coming on and asking about their unhealth tested pet who's going to be bred to the nearest male dog then yeah they should be discouraged. However someone who genuinely knows the breed, has carried all the health tests, got a dog with a good temperment, found a good stud who has the same and has had someone who knows the breed look them over to make sure there are no obvious problems then we should be encouraging them


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *I didn't mention health tests, but by your reply you have clearly made the point that in YOUR oppion thats the top priority.(sp) Whereas mine would be to give the advice that was asked for.How many people have we seen come onto the forum and ask a question only to be bombarded with god knows how many questions?*


That has happened in the past, but I don't think it happens enough now.
not that I have read much on this section for a few months :confused1:


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

bibbleyboo said:


> I feel quite saddened by this thread, having just had a first time litter and all the lovely support that i thought I was getting - to read this makes me thik this was not really meant as I thought. Firstly, I did everything I thought necessary and secondly, all my puppys are placed with people I know who wanted a pub because they know my dog and love her and I in turn know they will give her a great home. What is wrong with that? Not everyone wants a show dog - a lot of people want a loving pet. For me its not about the money, I am happy to give them away, people asked me to breed to continue her good traits and loved every minute (so far). ALSO my breeder who is very irritated at me having pups I know gave a pub to a friend of mine who treated her badly, I told the breeder this and she agreed to take the dog back and gave her a different dog, a bit of a strange dog they they may not be able to sell - sorry but that disgusted me more! and all that from a very reputable breeder..


Im sure all your comments you received were genuine and looks like youv done your best by your girl and the pups

I do agree that to have thrown at you have you done health checks straight away without addressing the question is quite threatening, i agree health checks/tests must be carried out butmay be an answer to the question an introduction to the person and the dogs and then feed in about health testing rather than ram it at someone.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *I didn't mention health tests, but by your reply you have clearly made the point that in YOUR oppion thats the top priority.(sp) Whereas mine would be to give the advice that was asked for.How many people have we seen come onto the forum and ask a question only to be bombarded with god knows how many questions?*


health testing is important and there are more things to look out for obviously but its a important part if someone intends to breed a litter which i use as an example....


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Nicky10 said:


> As far as I'm concerned someone coming on and asking about their unhealth tested pet who's going to be bred to the nearest male dog then yeah they should be discouraged. However someone who genuinely knows the breed, has carried all the health tests, got a dog with a good temperment, found a good stud who has the same and has had someone who knows the breed look them over to make sure there are no obvious problems then we should be encouraging them


*Why should anyone be discouraged? If people can help then why shouldn't they?
The trouble with some people on here is they think they know best but in actual fact they don't bother to wait and find out ALL the facts before passing judgement.*


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Natik said:


> health testing is important and there are more things to look out for obviously but its a important part if someone intends to breed a litter which i use as an example....


*pmsl once AGAIN your going on about health testing.Would you take the same attitude if your daughter came home and said she was pregnant or would you just want to do what was best to help her?*


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

If the bitch is already pregnant then yes the people who know about breeding/whelping should help the owner. But otherwise no


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *pmsl once AGAIN your going on about health testing.Would you take the same attitude if your daughter came home and said she was pregnant or would you just want to do what was best to help her?*


im not on about people whos bitch is already pregnant janice  obviosuly then its too late for health testing and they should recieve advice, in form of helping through the whelp or informing them about the possibility of a mismate jab if its not too late ...


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *pmsl once AGAIN your going on about health testing.Would you take the same attitude if your daughter came home and said she was pregnant or would you just want to do what was best to help her?*


Do you actually disagree with Healthy testing Jan, or is it just the way it has been discussed on this forum in the past?


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## Pug_D (Feb 21, 2010)

rona said:


> Do you actually disagree with Healthy testing Jan, or is it just the way it has been discussed on this forum in the past?


I think what she disagrees with is someone new coming on here and asking a completly unrelated question and several posters pouncing on them asking questions about health testing.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

bibbleyboo said:


> I feel quite saddened by this thread, having just had a first time litter and all the lovely support that i thought I was getting - to read this makes me thik this was not really meant as I thought. Firstly, I did everything I thought necessary and secondly, all my puppys are placed with people I know who wanted a pub because they know my dog and love her and I in turn know they will give her a great home. What is wrong with that? Not everyone wants a show dog - a lot of people want a loving pet. For me its not about the money, I am happy to give them away, people asked me to breed to continue her good traits and loved every minute (so far). ALSO my breeder who is very irritated at me having pups I know gave a pub to a friend of mine who treated her badly, I told the breeder this and she agreed to take the dog back and gave her a different dog, a bit of a strange dog they they may not be able to sell - sorry but that disgusted me more! and all that from a very reputable breeder..


but surely once you have come on here and heard about health tests, maybe next time you will have them done BEFORE you breed again? I would have thought as a caring breeder, even if you are breeding from dogs with fantastic temperment, you would also like to breed healthy dogs? why did your breeder get irritated with you about breeding from your dog? maybe just maybe the breeder knows there is a chance they carry some genetic health problem? also a "reputable breeder" would not give another pup to someone if they have taken a pup off them because they mis treated it. what made you think they were reputable?

mo


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

But its not un related if its a question about pregnancy/mating/puppies due and its not un related if its posted in the breeding section. what we have to remember sometimes, posters will see the O/P initial post, and not read all the responses, and straight away reply in their own words to that original post, this may be a repeat of what others have said. and so can look like bombardment, but thats the same in all the threads not in the breeding section, how many times have post been made in the training section, about toilet training? and there is responses from many many people on their idea of how to toilet train, the responses are many a time all similar, no body says this is bombarding the O/P everyone is giving their opinion on the matter simple as that.

mo


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

I think when members come on here and say that they have had a mishap or their bitch is already in whelp then we should be there to help them through, not bombard them with the thoughts on health testing etc BUT I do hope that they would do what is right by the bitch AFTER being helped with the present situation, we do health test all ours and although it is not infallible we do all that we can to provide our new puppy owners with as healthy a puppy as we can hope to produce !!!!!!! 

At the end of the day we cannot enforce our members to do health testing but would hope that they will do it off their own backs, we should be there for them when the 'deed' is already done and do our utmost to ensure that the bitch and pups have all the help that is required, sometimes when they are jumped on about health tests they dont come back to the forum and so have no valuable help from our knowledgeable members 

Hope the above makes sense


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rona said:


> Do you actually disagree with Healthy testing Jan, or is it just the way it has been discussed on this forum in the past?


To be totaly honest Rona i believe each person is entitled to what they *choose.If someone wants to health test then fine.My dogs are not health tested and i kow that wont be popular with some forum members but i wont lie for the sake of it.As i said before its personal choice. If someone comes on and asks about health testing then that in my oppion is the time to tell them about it.*


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> To be totaly honest Rona i believe each person is entitled to what they *choose.If someone wants to health test then fine.My dogs are not health tested and i kow that wont be popular with some forum members but i wont lie for the sake of it.As i said before its personal choice. If someone comes on and asks about health testing then that in my oppion is the time to tell them about it.*


What happens if that person dosnt KNOW that health tests are available? are you suggesting its not mentioned, and then at a later date the same person finds out there are health tests they could have done if they had known, and are upset because they came onto a breeding section on a forum and nobody bothered to let them know?

mo


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## Ridgielover (Apr 16, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> To be totaly honest Rona i believe each person is entitled to what they *choose.If someone wants to health test then fine.My dogs are not health tested and i kow that wont be popular with some forum members but i wont lie for the sake of it.As i said before its personal choice. If someone comes on and asks about health testing then that in my oppion is the time to tell them about it.*


Surely, if that's the case, you don't actually breed - unless your breed is lucky enough not to have any recommended health tests.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*


moboyd said:



What happens if that person dosnt KNOW that health tests are available? are you suggesting its not mentioned, and then at a later date the same person finds out there are health tests they could have done if they had known, and are upset because they came onto a breeding section on a forum and nobody bothered to let them know?

mo

Click to expand...

I'm not suggesting anything, i was just answering Rona's Question.Perhaps there should be a section called do you wish to know about health testing before you breed.



Ridgielover said:



Surely, if that's the case, you don't actually breed - unless your breed is lucky enough not to have any recommended health tests.

Click to expand...

I have never bred anything but birds, but if i wanted to i would do so and hope that there were people that would still help me if i asked.*


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> If someone comes on and asks about health testing then that in my oppion is the time to tell them about it.[/B][/COLOR]


quote Janice."I'm not suggesting anything, i was just answering Rona's Question.Perhaps there should be a section called do you wish to know about health testing before you breed."

actually Janice you are suggesting this in your response quoted at the begining of this post, because you are saying that IF someone comes on and asks about health testing then that is in your opinion the time to tell them about it, my response was what if they didnt Know about health tests, do we sit back and not say anything?

and my response to you re breeding from dogs that have not been health tested is, I am sure some people on here will be willing to help, but as far as I am concerned you have the information available to you regarding health tests, you choose not to do it, that is your choice, but I for one will not post on any threads when help is required because you went into breeding with your eyes wide open. sorry but thats how I feel on the matter.

mo


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

moboyd said:


> quote Janice."I'm not suggesting anything, i was just answering Rona's Question.Perhaps there should be a section called do you wish to know about health testing before you breed."
> 
> actually Janice you are suggesting this in your response quoted at the begining of this post, because you are saying that IF someone comes on and asks about health testing then that is in your opinion the time to tell them about it, my response was what if they didnt Know about health tests, do we sit back and not say anything?
> 
> mo


*My post to me stated what i thought,but i wont sit and split hairs.
How about the bit where i said perhaps we should have a section called " do you wish to know about health testing before you breed?I thought that was a good point but has been overlooked.*


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

JANICE199 said:


> *My post to me stated what i thought,but i wont sit and split hairs.
> How about the bit where i said perhaps we should have a section called " do you wish to know about health testing before you breed?I thought that was a good point but has been overlooked.*


I think that is a good idea Janice will run it by Mark later :thumbup:


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Im one of those people who came on here and didnt know health tests even exist. Then i read some stuff about them on here from other members and still didnt realise then their importance until i read a post explaining why they are important when breeding and started looking it into myself abit more.

I would have never looked for them on my own, and the average people dont do so either i tend to believe going by daily life outside the forum.
People buy a dog with intentions to breed without even knowing precautions of health testing should be taken, plan to breed their bitch, mate her, come on here for advice and then are we not supposed to tell them about the existence and the importance of health tests just because their bitch is already pregnant? They might breed another litter or two or three in the future and they cant look up something they dont know it exists and dont realise their importance!

And lets dont forget how often people mix up a regular vet CHECK with health testing. I read so often when asked about health tests they reply with "yes, my bitch has been checked by the vet" ...

Dont we have the responsibilty of guiding them into responsible breeding rather than HOPING they figure it out by themselves???

Then there will always be the ones who will breed for money and not the dogs intentions in their mind... and yes, those will get upset if told they need to spend even more money on health testing and get asked about it and refuse to answer (cause they havent done any) and they will most likly have the attidute of not wanting to carry out any, feel attacked and leave the forum.... 
Yes, in the past there were things being said which been out of order and unfair to the poster and that happens across the whole board, not just in this section and its those people needing dealing with and not prohibiting members of asking a important question in a related to it section.... thats something i didnt get and never will....

But if people keep their posts friendly and not get personal then i personally dont see how it could possibly upset anyone if the same question even get repeated by several members


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *My post to me stated what i thought,but i wont sit and split hairs.
> How about the bit where i said perhaps we should have a section called " do you wish to know about health testing before you breed?I thought that was a good point but has been overlooked.*


err I would have thought by now you would have been aware, there already IS a section on this in the breeding forum? look at the stickies at the top of the breeding section. http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/9369-necessary-health-tests-before-breeding.html

Mo


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

tashi said:


> I think that is a good idea Janice will run it by Mark later :thumbup:


*I'm glad you like the idea Tashi and i hope Mark will give it some thought.*


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

moboyd said:


> err I would have thought by now you would have been aware, there already IS a section on this in the breeding forum? look at the stickies at the top of the breeding section. http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/9369-necessary-health-tests-before-breeding.html
> 
> Mo


*Yes i do know that section is there, but the title would only attract those that know about health testing imo..*


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *My post to me stated what i thought,but i wont sit and split hairs.
> How about the bit where i said perhaps we should have a section called " do you wish to know about health testing before you breed?I thought that was a good point but has been overlooked.*


and what about those people who will never click on that because they assume their dogs have already been health tested by their local vet ?????


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

moboyd said:


> err I would have thought by now you would have been aware, there already IS a section on this in the breeding forum? look at the stickies at the top of the breeding section. http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/9369-necessary-health-tests-before-breeding.html
> 
> Mo





JANICE199 said:


> *I'm glad you like the idea Tashi and i hope Mark will give it some thought.*




mo


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Yes i do know that section is there, but the title would only attract those that know about health testing imo..*


And how would they know about health testing unless someone mentions it to them when they post in the breeding section?

Make your mind up Janice, please.


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## Bearpaw (Dec 10, 2009)

Surely each thread should be dealt with INDIVIDUALLY.Its often easy to know if someone is honest and doing the right thing,and genuinely looking for help,even if that isnt exactly to the standards of some.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

Bearpaw said:


> Surely each thread should be dealt with INDIVIDUALLY.Its often easy to know if someone is honest and doing the right thing,and genuinely looking for help,even if that isnt exactly to the standards of some.


The trouble is, that didn't work in the past.
Things got quite nasty at times


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

I'm out of this thread now,

Mo


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*


Natik said:



and what about those people who will never click on that because they assume their dogs have already been health tested by their local vet ?????

Click to expand...

Natik as a forum we will NEVER please all the people all of the time.



moboyd said:



And how would they know about health testing unless someone mentions it to them when they post in the breeding section?

Make your mind up Janice, please.

Click to expand...

I'm going to be polite and ask you to please drop the attitude.Respect costs nothing.I might not be very good at putting my point across but i think with a little effort people will understand what i'm trying to say.*


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> 
> Natik as a forum we will NEVER please all the people all of the time.
> *


*

its about guiding people into responsible breeding in a friendly manner and not pleasing anyone.... :frown:*


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> 
> Natik as a forum we will NEVER please all the people all of the time.
> 
> I'm going to be polite and ask you to please drop the attitude.Respect costs nothing.I might not be very good at putting my point across but i think with a little effort people will understand what i'm trying to say.*


As I posted previously I am leaving this thread, janice, one minute you are saying we shouldnt post about health tests if the member has not asked about health tests, and to answer questions on health test only if the poster asks, my respons was if they dont know about health tests surely we should inform them of them, then you suggest a section on health tests before breeding, my response was there already was a section for this already, and then you say if they dont know about health tests they wont look in that section, your responses seemed to be confused, hence my reason for asking you to make up your mind, and I did ask please at the end, I was not being nasty, just wanted you to make up your mind. again I am out of here because I am getting dizzy going round in circles.

mo


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> To be totaly honest Rona i believe each person is entitled to what they *choose.If someone wants to health test then fine.My dogs are not health tested and i kow that wont be popular with some forum members but i wont lie for the sake of it.As i said before its personal choice. If someone comes on and asks about health testing then that in my oppion is the time to tell them about it.*


How can they ask about Health testing if they know nothing about it? 
Surely it should be mentioned if they are in the planning stage?
It just gives the prospective breeder, all the information


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Natik said:


> its about guiding people into responsible breeding in a friendly manner and not pleasing anyone.... :frown:


*Sorry but i disagree, why can't we do both? I try and treat people on here the same as i would in the real world.If someone asks me a question i will answer the question, and then if i thought it was the right time i would carry the conversation to the next level.*


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Sorry but i disagree, why can't we do both? I try and treat people on here the same as i would in the real world.If someone asks me a question i will answer the question, and then if i thought it was the right time i would carry the conversation to the next level.*


And alot people believe the right time to mention health testing is before the person goes ahead with the mating.... to give them the chance to do it responsibly


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *Sorry but i disagree, why can't we do both? I try and treat people on here the same as i would in the real world.If someone asks me a question i will answer the question, and then if i thought it was the right time i would carry the conversation to the next level.*


That's the key I think, to ask rather than tell people.
Then hopefully they will want to know more.
If not then the thread can be left to those that aren't worried about health tests.
After all, if you don't believe your breeding bitch/dog needs health tests, then no amount of browbeating from people here will change your mind.
This would hopefully keep all breeders in the forum to receive whatever help they need, for the benefit of the dog, which is what we are all here for I hope.
It's never the dogs fault.


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## Bearpaw (Dec 10, 2009)

rona said:


> That's the key I think, to ask rather than tell people.
> Then hopefully they will want to know more.
> If not then the thread can be left to those that aren't worried about health tests.
> After all, if you don't believe your breeding bitch/dog needs health tests, then no amount of browbeating from people here will change your mind.
> ...


 I totally agree x


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Well at least now we are getting somewhere which can only be a good thing.*


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## RachyBobs (Oct 18, 2009)

Look. I help those who's dogs are ALREADY in pup and too far along for the mismate and i DISCORUAGE those who are 'thinking' or 'planning' a litter 

SIMPLE 

Nothing else you can do, so no point in bickering like children is there...


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *Well at least now we are getting somewhere which can only be a good thing.*


I still feel it should be mentioned at some stage to all those that come here in the planning stage of breeding.
Pointless if the deed has been done, but if they stay around long enough to integrate into the forum, health testing can be either discussed or pointed out them at a later date


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

RachyBobs said:


> Look. I help those who's dogs are ALREADY in pup and too far along for the mismate and i DISCORUAGE those who are 'thinking' or 'planning' a litter
> 
> SIMPLE
> 
> Nothing else you can do, so no point in bickering like children is there...


So you don't think the 1000+ views on this thread may help to educate some?


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

rona said:


> So you don't think the 1000+ views on this thread may help to educate some?


oh, wow, i didnt even notice this thread had so many clicks.... can only be a good thing certainly that people are being made aware about this subject


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## RachyBobs (Oct 18, 2009)

rona said:


> So you don't think the 1000+ views on this thread may help to educate some?


1000+ views is from people who are following the thread, i know even if i do not agree if theres loads of replys to it I always look to see whats happened .. : if people are going to breed, they usually dont seek help and just do it, then when its too late for the mismate they come on here and ask for advice because they have not thought it through until a few days before the due date. All I can do is try and advise as much as I can, at the end of the day these a tiny lives in the hands of people who without our info on here and help would have a not so good unbringing.. see what im saying?


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## poppydog1 (Mar 26, 2010)

The dog breeding thread is a good sourse of information, we shouldnt judge people not everyones perfect if like me you go to your vet he gives you the all clear tells you your dog will be a good mum why should you know any different, i respect my vet and he is a excellent vet but from reading these threads i have learned alot more some i agree with others i dont.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

RachyBobs said:


> 1000+ views is from people who are following the thread, i know even if i do not agree if theres loads of replys to it I always look to see whats happened .. : if people are going to breed, they usually dont seek help and just do it, then when its too late for the mismate they come on here and ask for advice because they have not thought it through until a few days before the due date. All I can do is try and advise as much as I can, at the end of the day these a tiny lives in the hands of people who without our info on here and help would have a not so good unbringing.. see what im saying?


i dont think anyone is saying that those where its too late shouldnt recieve any help....

but i also personally noticed quite a few threads in the past where people ask about the mating process etc or the bitch hasnt been as long into the pregnancy yet


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

poppydog1 said:


> The dog breeding thread is a good sourse of information, we shouldnt judge people not everyones perfect if like me you go to your vet he gives you the all clear tells you your dog will be a good mum why should you know any different, i respect my vet and he is a excellent vet but from reading these threads i have learned alot more some i agree with others i dont.


thats the point i was making, people get often told by their vet the bitch is healthy and has been vet checked and those people genuily beliefe that thats all it takes, and i find its important to advice them on the health tests part for instance without judging them.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

RachyBobs said:


> Look. I help those who's dogs are ALREADY in pup and too far along for the mismate and i DISCORUAGE those who are 'thinking' or 'planning' a litter
> 
> SIMPLE
> 
> Nothing else you can do, so no point in bickering like children is there...


For what reasons should someone be discouraged? Surely they should be encouraged to do things in the best manner (ie breeding for health and temperament)?

I dont see why asking questions should be frowned upon. Its done all in sections, not just the breeding ones. However, the manner in which questions are put across leave a bit to be desired at times.

Health testing isnt well publisized. The percentage of vets that recommend or even know about it, is very low, so its places like forums that are left to "educate" both breeders and buyers.

What people do with information supplied to them is up to them. There will always be good and bad breeders. Look at how many top breeders there are that know all about testing, yet still dont do it.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

poppydog1 said:


> The dog breeding thread is a good sourse of information, we shouldnt judge people not everyones perfect if like me you go to your vet he gives you the all clear tells you your dog will be a good mum why should you know any different, i respect my vet and he is a excellent vet but from reading these threads i have learned alot more some i agree with others i dont.


Glad that this forum has been of help to you.
Vets have different views sometimes, much like people here


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I think "mentioning" to people is the way to go, "bombarding" no as this always puts people off staying and getting the right advice ime sorry but thats what happens people get bambarded why do so many members have to keep repeating the same words maybe just shift them around a little if the o.p asks a question about breeding the firs reply is "is your dog health tested", has your dog had the relevant health tests then i have seen for the next 10 replies everyone is saying the same my god it gets on my nerves so to be the one coming on for advice and then getting those sort of relpies i would feel very intimidated, if someone says what the next was going to say well dont bother, its been said so why not leave it.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> I think "mentioning" to people is the way to go, "bombarding" no as this always puts people off staying and getting the right advice ime sorry but thats what happens people get bambarded why do so many members have to keep repeating the same words maybe just shift them around a little if the o.p asks a question about breeding the firs reply is "is your dog health tested", has your dog had the relevant health tests then i have seen for the next 10 replies everyone is saying the same my god it gets on my nerves so to be the one coming on for advice and then getting those sort of relpies i would feel very intimidated, if someone says what the next was going to say well dont bother, its been said so why not leave it.


*Also another thing that happens is they then get all the questions about why they want to breed,which then leads to even more questions.This to me isn't of any help to anyone.*


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *Also another thing that happens is they then get all the questions about why they want to breed,which then leads to even more questions.This to me isn't of any help to anyone.*


I still think the questions should be asked, but how to do it without putting people off. 
There has got to be a way around this somehow!!!!!


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Also another thing that happens is they then get all the questions about why they want to breed,which then leads to even more questions.This to me isn't of any help to anyone.*


It isnt any help and you find the o.p is long gone.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

rona said:


> I still think the questions should be asked, but how to do it without putting people off.
> There has got to be a way around this somehow!!!!!


Maybe the original question be answered first (if applicable) then the questions asked in a polite manner second. Its very common for a query not to be answered at all, and the thread to go off on some other tangent. There was recently a thread with 3 pages of responses, and only *one* actually answered the OPs question.

Breeding is an emotive subject, it will always elicit emotive responses.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

What about nominating one or two very diplomatic people to handle these threads?
If newbies jump in they can be sent a polite pm explaining how it works 
Anyone fancy putting their name forward? :lol:


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

rona said:


> What about nominating one or two very diplomatic people to handle these threads?
> If newbies jump in they can be sent a polite pm explaining how it works
> Anyone fancy putting their name forward? :lol:


I nominate Rona  :thumbup:


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

Nonnie said:


> Maybe the original question be answered first (if applicable) then the questions asked in a polite manner second. Its very common for a query not to be answered at all, and the thread to go off on some other tangent. There was recently a thread with 3 pages of responses, and only *one* actually answered the OPs question.
> 
> Breeding is an emotive subject, it will always elicit emotive responses.


the question should always be answered first


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

rona said:


> I still think the questions should be asked, but how to do it without putting people off.
> There has got to be a way around this somehow!!!!!


asked but also answered by the poster... often this question has been totally ignored by the person which caused it to be repeatedly mentioned in the thread in the hope the poster takes some notice of it i find and then it came across as bombarding rather than asking....


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rona said:


> I still think the questions should be asked, but how to do it without putting people off.
> There has got to be a way around this somehow!!!!!


*I honestly think that if people that come on here for the first time look around the site and see the different sections we have thats why i believe having a sticky like i sugested would work. ie. Do you wish to know about health testing before you breed? *


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

tashi said:


> I nominate Rona  :thumbup:


I'm not a breeder and don't know enough


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

rona said:


> the question should always be answered first


I agree with that, we should always think of the animal that is at present 'on the ground' so to speak, the bitch should always be our first concern, we should be helping as much as we can to get the said puppies born safely into the world and then if the member stays with us THEN politely point them in the direction of health testing etc, if they have had a bad experience the chances are they will be down to the vets for a neuter


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *I honestly think that if people that come on here for the first time look around the site and see the different sections we have thats why i believe having a sticky like i sugested would work. ie. Do you wish to know about health testing before you breed? *


I didn't look at stickies for a long time after I joined, I only came to get answers about my dog.
Had no intention of staying 
I'm going to start a thread to see if people have read the stickies :thumbup:


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## alaun (Jul 21, 2009)

How about we ask posters on this section to do an introduction post first...in this they could state why they are breeding, health tests and finally what they want help with etc


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

Natik said:


> asked but also answered by the poster... often this question has been totally ignored by the person which caused it to be repeatedly mentioned in the thread in the hope the poster takes some notice of it i find and then it came across as bombarding rather than asking....


If you are ignored then so be it, leave the thread


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

alaun said:


> How about we ask posters on this section to do an introduction post first...in this they could state why they are breeding, health tests and finally what they want help with etc


*But why would they feel the need to state why they are breeding? This is part of what puts some new members off.imo*


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## alaun (Jul 21, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *But why would they feel the need to state why they are breeding? This is part of what puts some new members off.imo*


Just thought it might avoid the 'bombardment' of people asking, if they've already said why etc. Probably wouldn't work - just a thought.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

alaun said:


> How about we ask posters on this section to do an introduction post first...in this they could state why they are breeding, health tests and finally what they want help with etc


Not sure that would work, it could frighten off those that know about health testing but haven't had it done. Possibly with the outcome of a bitch or puppies suffering 
In principle it sounds a good idea


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

alaun said:


> Just thought it might avoid the 'bombardment' of people asking, if they've already said why etc. Probably wouldn't work - just a thought.


*Sorry i wasn't finding fault with your post,i just thought it might do the opposite of what we are trying to achieve.*


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## alaun (Jul 21, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Sorry i wasn't finding fault with your post,i just thought it might do the opposite of what we are trying to achieve.*


 I didn't take it that way Janice. I think it was a utopian idea I had any way, lol. 

I don't think there is a way round it tbh. The ones who are ignorant (I mean that in the nicest way) won't ask because they don't know to ask - so the only way they'll be educated is if they are told explicitly.

The byb will lie to cover their own backs anyway.

New breeders who want to learn will either ask the questions or be glad that someone has pointed them in the right direction.


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## poppydog1 (Mar 26, 2010)

I recently posted a question about my bitch been in season when was the best time to mate her all my replies were about health testing her first none answered the question, many people on here will come on say theyve done all testing etc when they havnt just to get answers without all the pressure about checks etc, i know the information surely it is my descition to health check or not i will probebly be slammed for this but each to ther own.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

poppydog1 said:


> I recently posted a question about my bitch been in season when was the best time to mate her all my replies were about health testing her first none answered the question, many people on here will come on say theyve done all testing etc when they havnt just to get answers without all the pressure about checks etc, i know the information surely it is my descition to health check or not i will probebly be slammed for this but each to ther own.


. if you don't health tests its totally irresponsible and god help anyone who breeds and doesn't and the poor pup goes on to have health issues and the owner sues.

Oh and YES i have health tested.!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

if people plan to breed irresponsibly they shouldnt really complain about not recieving the support for such actions imo


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

I've been following this thrad for a while but haven't commented til now as I'm not one for "loud discussions  "
A while ago someone came on here (i think it was this forum) asking about breeding their ESS. She had mentioned nothing about health testing so it was something I picked up on, and mentioned if they had been done. No. The lady asking about breeding her ESS had no idea that there were such things as health tests. They assumed because her dog had been seen by a vet and cleared for breeding that they would be ok to breed. 
I explained to her all the tests I could think of for ESS and this put her off. She asked if they were necessary for "just one litter" I explained to her (in a kind manner) that they were necessary and that she would be held responsible for ALL puppies that showed hereditary problems and liable for all vets bills related to these diseases.
I think this shook her up a little and she has decided not to breed.

Not just in this case, but many that come on here have rose tinted glasses on when it comes to breeding. I don't think they realise the financial, emotional committment necessary to raise a litter CORRECTLY. I think "correctly" is the key word here... many an idiot can raise puppies, but its raising puppies CORRECTLY that is the most important factor.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

The main problem is education. People do not know what is involved in ALL aspects of raising a litter. Same principle about choosing correct parents.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

dexter said:


> . if you don't health tests its totally irresponsible and god help anyone who breeds and doesn't and the poor pup goes on to have health issues and the owner sues.
> 
> Oh and YES i have health tested.!


isnt that attitude exactly what this post is trying to stop. I am sure health testing is a great idea but if only breeders that currently health test were allowed to breed there would be a sad shortage of pet dogs! My guess would be that the majority of pet owners have never heard of health testing, the majority of pups that are sold come from pet homes/very small breeders and againwill not be health tested manly because the breeder will not know of such things. Vets are not advising health testing so I assume they are not seeing a huge amount of preventable genetic problems because, in spite of so many people on here feeling vets are ignorant animal haters that are only after money, I am fairly sure the majority of vets would give advice if they thought it would alleviate suffering.

What worries me far more than someone breeding from a non health tested bitch is a pet owner with no practical knowledge breeding. Sure, a lot of the threads on here originate with accidental matings but a lot are planned. By people that have no idea what day to mate the bitch, how to help their friends dog to actually mate their bitch, how to feed the in pup bitch and how to tell when it is approaching whelping and when to intervene during the whelping. And if by some miracle they get to the stage of having a healthy litter they then have to rear them so that at 8 weeks there is a litter of healthy, worm free, well socialised and well fed puppies. 
this is what prospective breeders should be warned about, and what posters with already pregnant bitches should be helped through. Never mind the hypothetical problems that could appear with a bitch that hasnt been health tested.


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## poppydog1 (Mar 26, 2010)

Surely vets and the kennel club should be telling people all this info the kennel club register non tested dogs once over you bought a kc registered dog and that was all the guarantee you got. Kennel club advertise peoples non tested pups is a health test a 100% guarantee that that dog will jnot have bad hips etc. I have contacted breeders with years experience asking if there dogs are tested they say no my solid colour cocker dosnt need testing its honestly a minefield it needs to be made clear. It was my ESS you are talking about and reading these threads has made me think twice about breeding her before health testing. If she got a hip problem or eye problem i would never think about going back to the breeder and sueing (rightly or wrongly) them i would just accept that i was unlucky and that i would look after my dog for the rest of its life.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

poppydog1 said:


> Surely vets and the kennel club should be telling people all this info the kennel club register non tested dogs once over you bought a kc registered dog and that was all the guarantee you got. Kennel club advertise peoples non tested pups is a health test a 100% guarantee that that dog will jnot have bad hips etc. I have contacted breeders with years experience asking if there dogs are tested they say no my solid colour cocker dosnt need testing its honestly a minefield it needs to be made clear. It was my ESS you are talking about and reading these threads has made me think twice about breeding her before health testing. If she got a hip problem or eye problem i would never think about going back to the breeder and sueing (rightly or wrongly) them i would just accept that i was unlucky and that i would look after my dog for the rest of its life.


This is just the reason why this needs sorting in our own little font of Knowledge 
We cannot influence the Kennel club or vets, but what we can do is try as hard as we can to educate and help all those that find their way here.
It's just finding the best and most helpful way of doing it, without frightening off some of those that might take on board the information, if it was given in a friendly and measured way


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

you know I enjoy roaming around this section, but I never post, why would I have no experience of dog breeding, thanless you count my little yorkie when i was 18, but that was more mum than me, 

But I have found this debate interesting, but i do feel ronas point of view is very valid, there do seem to bee some people that see the pound signs first.

sorry if i have spoken out of turn but I had to have my say.


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## poppydog1 (Mar 26, 2010)

Its a free country we should be able to say what we want, when i was thinking of breeding my bitch i was more concerned about all the costs involved rather then if any profit.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rona said:


> What about nominating one or two very diplomatic people to handle these threads?
> If newbies jump in they can be sent a polite pm explaining how it works
> Anyone fancy putting their name forward? :lol:


*I'd be up for the job, as i think i'm very diplomatic.But know nothing about breeding.*


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## kirksandallchins (Nov 3, 2007)

Blitz said:


> isnt that attitude exactly what this post is trying to stop. I am sure health testing is a great idea but if only breeders that currently health test were allowed to breed there would be a sad shortage of pet dogs! My guess would be that the majority of pet owners have never heard of health testing, the majority of pups that are sold come from pet homes/very small breeders and againwill not be health tested manly because the breeder will not know of such things. Vets are not advising health testing so I assume they are not seeing a huge amount of preventable genetic problems because, in spite of so many people on here feeling vets are ignorant animal haters that are only after money, I am fairly sure the majority of vets would give advice if they thought it would alleviate suffering.


I think this is how puppy farmers and BYBs justify themselves.

Just because a lot of people refuse to carry out health tests does not make it right - and I would be concerned that if an owner is not aware of the health problems in their breed do they have the knowledge to breed.

I can't beleive that there is even a debate about health testing - no wonder the caring/knowledgeable/responsible breeders and owners left on here rarely post any more.


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I'd be up for the job, as i think i'm very diplomatic.But know nothing about breeding.*


I agree, i think you're very diplomatic.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

kirksandallchins said:


> I think this is how puppy farmers and BYBs justify themselves.
> 
> Just because a lot of people refuse to carry out health tests does not make it right - and I would be concerned that if an owner is not aware of the health problems in their breed do they have the knowledge to breed.
> 
> I can't beleive that there is even a debate about health testing - no wonder the caring/knowledgeable/responsible breeders and owners left on here rarely post any more.


This isn't really a debate about health testing but the best way to approach the subject without putting people off asking questions.
This section has quite often educated people enough to stop them breeding non health tested dogs


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *I'd be up for the job, as i think i'm very diplomatic.But know nothing about breeding.*


But Jan, you are like me, not enough knowledge


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

rona said:


> This isn't really a debate about health testing but the best way to approach the subject without putting people off asking questions.
> This section has quite often educated people enough to stop them breeding non health tested dogs


I can see where you are coming from Rona and it is just which way is the best way forward to help without frightening them off the forum


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

rona said:


> This isn't really a debate about health testing but the best way to approach the subject without putting people off asking questions.
> This section has quite often educated people enough to stop them breeding non health tested dogs


my dogs have never been health tested


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

I'll put my name forward. I think I can be quite diplomatic when it comes to mentioning testing


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> I'll put my name forward. I think I can be quite diplomatic when it comes to mentioning testing


I'll second you


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

borderer said:


> my dogs have never been health tested


*I'm glad i'm not the only one Bordie.*


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Tanya1989 said:


> I'll put my name forward. I think I can be quite diplomatic when it comes to mentioning testing


i always enjoy reading ur advice posts about health tests, u come across very knowledgable and also polite and informative. And u get the point across really well as to why health testing is important...


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *I'm glad i'm not the only one Bordie.*


i have never had vet bills for illness had dogs allot of years,yet i look on here and people s dogs seem to be at vets a lot


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Aww thanks... It something very important to me... I know the drawbacks of having a puppy from untested parents.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

borderer said:


> i have never had vet bills for illness had dogs allot of years,yet i look on here and people s dogs seem to be at vets a lot


In which case thank your lucky stars.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

I'm all in favour of Tanya, as she has always seemed fair and unbiased.

Janice, I dont wish to be nasty but I am against yourself, purely based on the fact that you give the opinion that you think health test are not needed. and as mentioned lack of experience with regards to breeding dogs

Mo


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

Tanya1989 said:


> In which case thank your lucky stars.


my lucky stars have been shining over 30 years all pups lived long and happy loves with no illness


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

borderer said:


> my lucky stars have been shining over 30 years all pups lived long and happy loves with no illness


*That says a lot to me Bordie.I sometimes think people spend more time at the vets these days.*


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Thanks Rona this is a very interesting thread and is staying nice....Jill


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## poppydog1 (Mar 26, 2010)

What sort of dogs do you have borderer? have you bred alot of pups?
Surely we need views from both sides.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

Tanya1989 said:


> I'll put my name forward. I think I can be quite diplomatic when it comes to mentioning testing


I think you would be brilliant :thumbup:



borderer said:


> my lucky stars have been shining over 30 years all pups lived long and happy loves with no illness


I knew someone like you Bordie, had bred poodles for decades, no problem at all. Had an excellent name locally.
Just happened to choose the wrong stud dog on one occasion, and made all her following dogs useless.
They didn't know you see!! The new stud dog had PRA that didn't show until it was 5 years old.
So many puppies born to a life of blindness 
Devastating for all involved


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## poppydog1 (Mar 26, 2010)

Can i ask a question re health testing if you buy a pup from a tested mother and father do you need to get the pup tested if you wanted to breed or would it be ok. Thanks


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

poppydog1 said:


> Can i ask a question re health testing if you buy a pup from a tested mother and father do you need to get the pup tested if you wanted to breed or would it be ok. Thanks


It depends some conditions they're genetically clear if both parents are some conditions though you do need to test the puppy if you're going to breed


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rona said:


> I think you would be brilliant :thumbup:
> 
> I knew someone like you Bordie, had bred poodles for decades, no problem at all. Had an excellent name locally.
> Just happened to choose the wrong stud dog on one occasion, and made all her following dogs useless.
> ...


*Rona are you saying that a dog that has been health tested hasn't the chance of getting a health problem kown to that breed?*


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Im sure some people are _lucky_ to produce healthy puppies without health testing, but on the other hand the risk that one day the luck is gone and the resulting suffering are not worth taking ...

We have the tools there to prevent illnesses and reduce the chances of the pups becoming ill and then make breeding decision for the good for the future pups, so why someone wouldnt want to use those tools and rather go by luck with a living creature which can suffer for the rest of its life is something i will never understand.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

poppydog1 said:


> Can i ask a question re health testing if you buy a pup from a tested mother and father do you need to get the pup tested if you wanted to breed or would it be ok. Thanks


you would need to test for hip displaysia, eye conditions and other tests relevant to the breed, however some tests are now done by DNA so for my TT if I decided to breed from her she has a clear DNA for PLL but will still have to have eye test annually for the other eye problems and of course has been hip tested


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

rona said:


> I think you would be brilliant :thumbup:
> 
> I knew someone like you Bordie, had bred poodles for decades, no problem at all. Had an excellent name locally.
> Just happened to choose the wrong stud dog on one occasion, and made all her following dogs useless.
> ...


But Rona, lots of dogs of various breeds get PRA (and I agree they should not be bred from) but before testing of course they were often bred from and it didnt result in a lot of blind puppies, it results in the odd puppy which gets PRA in later life. It would be very easy to stop dogs being bred from that have hereditary problems if all the pups were guaranteed to get it because then no one would breed from them - the problem is they can be used a lot and never even have a problem connected to the culprit.

I fully agree with giving out the information to new prospective breeders but I do not agree with someone contacting them and giving it to them personally. I think that would put my back up very severely and I would be gone. Just pointing out the sticky should be sufficient but most people that seriously want to breed from their bitch will know that very few are health tested and will still breed with a clear conscience. I still think it more to the point to warn total novices of the complications that they will meet from mating to weaned puppy, rather than the vague thought of possibly passing on a hereditary disease.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *Rona are you saying that a dog that has been health tested hasn't the chance of getting a health problem kown to that breed?*


No not at all, I don't know the ins and outs of it all, but I do know that particularly with certain breeds, health testing would cut down the chances of heredity problems to minimal.
Lets face it, some actual breeds of dogs, like Bordies terriers and long dogs, have far less problems than say a Pug or Cavalier.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I'm glad i'm not the only one Bordie.*


No you are not, none of my springers were from health tested parents, although my cocker was from parents that was health tested, thats not to say i dont think its important, 1 of mune died from a genetic illness but they wouldnt have health tested for the anyway.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

Blitz said:


> But Rona, lots of dogs of various breeds get PRA (and I agree they should not be bred from) but before testing of course they were often bred from and it didnt result in a lot of blind puppies, it results in the odd puppy which gets PRA in later life. It would be very easy to stop dogs being bred from that have hereditary problems if all the pups were guaranteed to get it because then no one would breed from them - the problem is they can be used a lot and never even have a problem connected to the culprit.
> *If they haven't been tested then you don't know which are at risk. That is the point I'm making. Obviously if they are tested, then that is a different issue altogether.
> I shouldn't be discussing this as I really don't know enough *
> 
> I fully agree with giving out the information to new prospective breeders but I do not agree with someone contacting them and giving it to them personally. I think that would put my back up very severely and I would be gone. Just pointing out the sticky should be sufficient but most people that seriously want to breed from their bitch will know that very few are health tested and will still breed with a clear conscience. I still think it more to the point to warn total novices of the complications that they will meet from mating to weaned puppy, rather than the vague thought of possibly passing on a hereditary disease.


I think you misunderstood me, the advice should be given on open forum, but if a new breeder came and started being a little aggressive on the forum toward the OP then they should get a polite pm to tell them to back off


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Basically breeding is a minefield, but one that can be helped by health testing of the main problems faced by our beloved pets, wss for instance suffer from epilepsy one of the reasons that I will no longer have a wss is because of the epilepsy gene, until they find the DNA 'goalposts' I no longer choose to live with the worry of every twitch turning into an epileptic fit, I love the breed but dont want the worry of losing a dog at a young age due to the severe nature of some of the fits that these lovely dogs do have 

At the end of the day it is everyones own 'thing' whether to have their animals done or not, we choose to do all we can with ours


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

I cannot see the point of not testing. As far as I am aware none are invasive procedures. Why risk it?

Obviously you do not need to test non-breeding dogs, but sometimes testing them does help the breeder to track their lines and know not to breed from a particular dog again. Many diseases and conditions are passed down through generations missing quite a few dogs. There is a dog in Leos who had a reputation for throwing cryptor puppies but he himself had 2 perfectly normal testicles. This is where genetics come into it. Obviously in this case both parents have to be carriers of the fault, but now they are known carriers...(a 2 whole litters were born cryptors) then neither should be used again. 

There are obviously a lot of other hereditary diseases and conditions about and some haven't yet had genetic markers highlighted. But these things are being updated all the time and the only way to eradicate these horrendous problems like DCM and other such problems is by testing parents. 

A lot of dogs can suffer from these problems but show no external symptoms. DCM, HD, ED etc. Just because you cannot see it, doesn't mean its not there.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> No you are not, none of my springers were from health tested parents, although my cocker was from parents that was health tested, thats not to say i dont think its important, 1 of mune died from a genetic illness but they wouldnt have health tested for the anyway.


*Can i ask do you or would you feel you would need to health test if you were to breed? Feel free not to answer i don't want to put you on the spot.*


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## Bearpaw (Dec 10, 2009)

Im fairly new to this site,so im not sure if my opinion really counts for much.
I have my own opinions on health testing,and have dogs from both health tested and not,and experienced health issues relating to these tests.
In my opinion if you try and control the breeding section on this forum too much,you will lose alot of members.You may as well have one section headed 'only post if your dogs are health tested'.Most breeds have their own forums,so why do people come here? because here they feel comfortable enough to ask questions that other forums may make them feel bad about or feel they have been spoken to in a condescending way.
If people want to ask questions or seek information with regards to health testing,it is already on this site,maybe it could be made more obvious to a new breeder? In the sense of..if you click to ask a question,a new box comes up first with this information. Or even a box that asks the poster if they wish their question to be answered freely in the open forum/breeding section or answered only by breeders who have lots of experience (though how many litters constitutes an experienced breeder,im not sure!)

I also think if people are going to give information with regards to health testing and these issues,they should also state that the tests are of no guarantee that their puppy/puppies will be healthy.

People who have crossbred,non pedigree dogs also come along and ask questions in this forum,they have less choice of forums to use for information and i dont feel that these people should be made to feel they cant ask.Cross breeds and non pedigree dogs are not everyones cup of tea,but they are out there and breeding and their owners may require help.


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## poppydog1 (Mar 26, 2010)

Im with you Bearpaw if i had come on here and said my dog is pregnant by mistake no one would have said your not a responsible dog owner you should keep your bith in and on a lead they would of simply answered the question.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

rona said:


> I think you would be brilliant :thumbup:
> 
> I knew someone like you Bordie, had bred poodles for decades, no problem at all. Had an excellent name locally.
> Just happened to choose the wrong stud dog on one occasion, and made all her following dogs useless.
> ...


i know what i am looking at dont have to pay someone to tell me.my father bred them before me no problems people on here are allways posting about there poorly health tested dogs


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Can you spot DNA markers then?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Bearpaw said:


> Im fairly new to this site,so im not sure if my opinion really counts for much.
> I have my own opinions on health testing,and have dogs from both health tested and not,and experienced health issues relating to these tests.
> In my opinion if you try and control the breeding section on this forum too much,you will lose alot of members.You may as well have one section headed 'only post if your dogs are health tested'.Most breeds have their own forums,so why do people come here? because here they feel comfortable enough to ask questions that other forums may make them feel bad about or feel they have been spoken to in a condescending way.
> If people want to ask questions or seek information with regards to health testing,it is already on this site,maybe it could be made more obvious to a new breeder? In the sense of..if you click to ask a question,a new box comes up first with this information. Or even a box that asks the poster if they wish their question to be answered freely in the open forum/breeding section or answered only by breeders who have lots of experience (though how many litters constitutes an experienced breeder,im not sure!)
> ...


*Very good post..Your oppion does count for something, its not how long you have been a member that counts.*


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

borderer said:


> i know what i am looking at dont have to pay someone to tell me.my father bred them before me no problems people on here are allways posting about there poorly health tested dogs


Can I draw your attention to this post?

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/94463-why.html


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## Pug_D (Feb 21, 2010)

Please do not flame me for being honest here...

I came here with no knowledge of health tests.

I read the posts and thought 'hmm, whats all this abou' and looked into it myself.

I had a look at many pug breeders anf only a handful mentioned health tests.

My mentor has been breeding pugs for over a decade, she is a very sucessful show person. Her dogs are really good dogs and have won so many awards. All her dogs have stud book numbers and the dog we wanted to sire our littergot his junior warrent and is just super.

She doesn't health test.

I emailed her asking her about health tests and she doesn't seem clue'd up on the at all.

Her waiting list is buldging, she has people driving from all over the UK to use her stud dogs,

So I thought, if she doesn't test, and if 90% of the breedes on champdogs don't have their little red health test star, why should I bother?

I am being painfully honest here knowing how you all feel about testing.

However, I'm not sure I feel thaT WAY ANYMORE,

THE MORE FIGHT i SEE HERE TO GET PEOPLE TO HEALTH TEST MAKES ME FEEL INADEQUATE FOR EVEN CONSIDERING NOT.

i'LL BE TRUTHFUL, i'M SCARED ABOUT BAD RESULTS, i'M SCARED TO TELL MY MENTOR THAT ME, FIRST TIME BREEDER WITH PET DOGS, DOESN'T WANT TO USE HER SUPER SHOW DOG ... BECAUSE OF LACK OF HEALTH TESTS

damn sorry about the caps!! 

But the more time I spend here the more I just don't think I can do it.

The embaressment I felt when another forum member equired about my pups and their tests was painful when I had to say I didn't think we were getting them done.

I admit I still feel torn, like I said I am being painfully honest here, 

but if I'm feeling torn, if I'm feeling slightly embarressed, ashamed of ANY part of my breeding then how can I go on??

How does she carry on? does she just not think about it??

She said in 10 yearsno one has asked about health tests??!!

Part of me thinks is it just hype on this forum because no where else in real life, NO-ONE in real life in all the breeders and pug people I have met have ever mentioned health tests!! seriously!

Don't slam me, my bitches aren't even one yet so can't have them done so this is all just been playing around in my mind.

But can you all see how different the real world is to this forum?


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Pug_D said:


> Please don't flame me for being honest here...
> 
> I came here with no knowledge of health tests.
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying but doesn't the serious health issues in pugs kind of prove the point


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## poppydog1 (Mar 26, 2010)

I feel just like you pug d the owner of the stud dog we wanted to use has bred ESS for many years never health tests has never had a problem im confused too


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

Pug_D said:


> Please don't flame me for being honest here...
> 
> I came here with no knowledge of health tests.
> 
> ...


rep given well said


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

I think she may be telling porkies when she says she has never been asked about health tests. Almost all my puppy owners want to know about them.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Pug_D said:


> Please don't flame me for being honest here...
> 
> I came here with no knowledge of health tests.
> 
> ...


at present there does not appear to be any necessary health tests for pugs

here is the link to the list 
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/1100/abshealthreqs.pdf


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

luvmydogs said:


> I think she may be telling porkies when she says she has never been asked about health tests. Almost all my puppy owners want to know about them.


i have never been asked about health tests


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## Pug_D (Feb 21, 2010)

tashi said:


> at present there does not appear to be any necessary health tests for pugs
> 
> here is the link to the list
> http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/1100/abshealthreqs.pdf


Tashi, thats what I said to the lady who enquired, I had been throught the whole kennel club health test list and PUGS are not on any!

But apparantly they suffere they worst with their joints,

so why haven't the KC put them on the lists?

they aren't even on the 'under investigaion' lists

< confused >


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I thought pugs needed a few health tests heart and hemi-vertabrae among others. I don't see why the KC says they don't have any required ones


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

borderer said:


> i have never been asked about health tests


Do you think that is largely due to the fact that you breed working dogs and they seem less proned to health issues. If i was buying a springer for example i would go see my brother in law. He is a Gamekeeper has bred dogs for years (much like you) never health tested and never felt the need to but i would feel his pups were a safe bet because they are from working stock. I would pay significantly less than for a show type but would be happy to trust his experience and reputation. Maybe that's my misconception :confused1:


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## Pug_D (Feb 21, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> I thought pugs needed a few health tests heart and hemi-vertabrae among others. I don't see why the KC says they don't have any required ones


I have no idea it,

but it makes iit all the more confusing.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Pug_D said:


> Tashi, thats what I said to the lady who enquired, I had been throught the whole kennel club health test list and PUGS are not on any!
> 
> But apparantly they suffere they worst with their joints,
> 
> ...


This is a breed where you will have to use your own discretion, watch out for the over short noses etc, my friend has pugs and all hers run on the beach and infact run with a gundog, guess this is the way I would have to judge on the health of the dog in question. As for the KC until the BVA decide what tests the breed actually needs they will not be put on the schedule.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Actually when I think about it, most of my puppy owners are looking for a dog that is not inbred and used for working. They have often done a lot of research before coming to me so maybe my puppy owners are the odd ones out :lol:


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## Pug_D (Feb 21, 2010)

tashi said:


> This is a breed where you will have to use your own discretion, watch out for the over short noses etc, my friend has pugs and all hers run on the beach and infact run with a gundog, guess this is the way I would have to judge on the health of the dog in question. As for the KC until the BVA decide what tests the breed actually needs they will not be put on the schedule.


So as a KC breeder, you look up your dog and see what they recommend as far as health tests go.

If it says hip joints and eye tests then you should get them done, yes?

So as a pug breeder, as far as the KC is concerned I don't have to get any tests done to be a good one?!? : :eek6:

thats not going by the opinions of people on here, but PURELY by the KC reccomendations.

I'm quite baffled!


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Its the breed clubs that decide and send them off to the kennel club. Likewise for bulldogs, there are no formal ones as such just a guideline set by the breed council in which a vet has to sign off on.

Our biggest problem is our vets. Time after time I have been approached by people with a breeding question who start off by saying... "yes the vet has given me the all clear for breeding". I think the only way to overcome this is by putting posters up in vets and pet shops, just to educate people about the need for these NECESSARY tests


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

Tanya1989 said:


> Its the breed clubs that decide and send them off to the kennel club. Likewise for bulldogs, there are no formal ones as such just a guideline set by the breed council in which a vet has to sign off on.
> 
> Our biggest problem is our vets. Time after time I have been approached by people with a breeding question who start off by saying... "yes the vet has given me the all clear for breeding". I think the only way to overcome this is by putting posters up in vets and pet shops, just to educate people about the need for these NECESSARY tests


the only people that would read them is them that get health tested they spend most time at vets


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

yes doing the responsible thing and getting a check up prior to breeding


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Pug_D said:


> Please don't flame me for being honest here...
> 
> I came here with no knowledge of health tests.
> 
> ...


health tests are important IMO, and breeding from healthy dogs is important, I do health tests, I am what I feel is a good reputable breeder, I am known in the breed, I have been successful both in the working and showing of my dogs, I have a bitch here that I wanted to breed from, she is in realality the last of my line of dogs, i have no doubt she would have passed the health tests for the breed because she comes from a long line of non carriers, and good hips, she is a very nice girl, nice temperment, doing well in the show ring, and showing working potential, the problem is at birth she was found to have an extremely mild heart murmer, less than grade 1, many breeders would just go a head and breed from this girl, because a grade 1 is found in many dogs as pups sometimes it just goes away as the months go by, hers stayed, SHE WILL NOT BE BRED FROM, I am not embarrassed about this, I would be more embarrassed if I was found to breed from a dog knowing it had a health problem, I have not sunk my head in the sand pretending this is not there, it is and I am not willing to possibly produce pups that may or maynot have a heart issue, I could not live with this. you all have a point in your life when you either make a stand and try to be the best you can, or try to go with the flow, keep your head down, and hope that nobody notices that you are breeding dogs with health issues, its entirely up to you, I know which rout I would always take, and that is breed ONLY from health tested dogs that are fit for function, and if health issues riase their head take appropriate action and remove the dogs effected from my breeding programme, if it means that my line ends then so be it.

mo


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

I suppose you have to ask yourself how you will feel if someone comes back to you at some stage with a health problem.

If you can look them in the eye knowing you done all you could or
If you can look them in the eye having not done testing then there is your answer as to wether you should test or not.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> I suppose you have to ask yourself how you will feel if someone comes back to you at some stage with a health problem.
> 
> If you can look them in the eye knowing you done all you could or
> If you can look them in the eye having not done testing then there is your answer as to wether you should test or not.


i couldnt bare the thought of having produced a pup which would suffer due to me believing there is no point in taking precautions in form of health testing. 
I personally couldnt live with that and it would give me sleepless nights knowing there is a dog in pain and suffers through my negligence which might have been prevented by a simple test :frown:


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Pug_D said:


> So as a KC breeder, you look up your dog and see what they recommend as far as health tests go.
> 
> If it says hip joints and eye tests then you should get them done, yes?
> 
> ...


sadly the KC are only getting up to speed on health requirements of all the different, breeds, I know this is from a breeder in the USA, but it give you an idea of what health tests YOU should be looking at if you want to ensure you really are breeding from a good health pug, makes no difference what the KC says is the minimum you test for, I test for many things that theUK KC do not feel are required in my breed, I do it for my own piece of mind.

have a read 
Miksas-Hugga Pug Dogs - Health Testing

mo


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Tanya1989 said:


> yes doing the responsible thing and getting a check up prior to breeding


*Sorry but are you saying that 30years of having dogs and breeding them with no health issues is not responcible?*


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Can i ask do you or would you feel you would need to health test if you were to breed? Feel free not to answer i don't want to put you on the spot.*


No you havnt put me on the spot, but i do feel this is a difficult subject for me, i have had 3 springers 2 now none from h.t. parents charlie the cocker is.

My first springer had d.c.m at 6 yrs old and if there was a test to detect the gene then i would have to say yes i would h.t as i found it extremely hard to cope with what happened to him so young and wouldnt want a dog or owner to go through that, harvey his blood brother younger 1 litter apart is 10 this year extremely healthy he defies his age in every way molly is not yet 2 so dont know with her but is a super example neither from h.t.parents.

I have a friend with a lab from h.t.parents excellent scores has suffered an elbow problem had 2 ops and its a genetic defect.
My brother has a rottie from h.t.parents an hip problem developed at 1yr old his future doesnt look good, so kind of blows health testing out of the window. So yes and to health testing i dont think its the be all and end all. I would certainly not turn down a pup that wasnt health tested.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Without getting into an argument, yes i do think it is irresponsible. 30 yrs ago there were hardly any testing done because these tests just didn't exist. Now they do and they are incredibly accurate so why not have them done?

The only reason I can see someone objecting to doing health testing is because they have something to hide JMHO


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## gesic (Feb 19, 2009)

me thinks genetically engineered dogs might b the way forward
That or harvest eggs and sperm from all dogs and grow (in a lab!) only if they live a long and hereditory disease free life!


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

you also have to take in the nature/nurture aspect of it all too, you can have a dog that is bred from dogs all health tested regarding hips, and yet one "may" end up with HD, is that down to the breeding or could it possibly be to the handling of a young dog and doing too much too soon? if the dog had come from non health tested it would automatically be assumed it was from the parents? but again how the pups are raised can also have a big impact on the pups developemnt. but I maintain, that a pup from health tested parents and raised correctly, have a better chance than a pup coming from un health tested.

mo


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> No you havnt put me on the spot, but i do feel this is a difficult subject for me, i have had 3 springers 2 now none from h.t. parents charlie the cocker is.
> 
> My first springer had d.c.m at 6 yrs old and if there was a test to detect the gene then i would have to say yes i would h.t as i found it extremely hard to cope with what happened to him so young and wouldnt want a dog or owner to go through that, harvey his blood brother younger 1 litter apart is 10 this year extremely healthy he defies his age in every way molly is not yet 2 so dont know with her but is a super example neither from h.t.parents.
> 
> ...


*Thankyou for your reply and for being so honest.If nothing else this post also shows as you've stated health testing isn't the be all and end all.*


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Tanya1989 said:


> Without getting into an argument, yes i do think it is irresponsible. 30 yrs ago there were hardly any testing done because these tests just didn't exist. Now they do and they are incredibly accurate so why not have them done?
> 
> The only reason I can see someone objecting to doing health testing is because they have something to hide JMHO


*I have nothing to hide but i haven't got health tested dogs.*


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

But do you breed them?


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

Tanya1989 said:


> Without getting into an argument, yes i do think it is irresponsible. 30 yrs ago there were hardly any testing done because these tests just didn't exist. Now they do and they are incredibly accurate so why not have them done?
> 
> The only reason I can see someone objecting to doing health testing is because they have something to hide JMHO


I have to disagree with this. If as you say there weren't many health tests done 30 years ago, why should someone who has been breeding dogs for this time or longer, even consider that they are necessary.
I'm sorry, but like this new saying "fit for function" which will be held over people in the future.
Health testing is to some of us a relatively new consideration


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## Pug_D (Feb 21, 2010)

I think people need to remember these are living, breathing beings we are talking about here ... not toasters or kettles 

We can't guarentee them like a product from Argos!

However many checks people perform nature can always go wrong 2 or 3 years down the line!


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

But what if someoone has been breeding since say the 70`s,when health testing wasn`t aorund,and they are breeding dogs that now have genetic health problems,but back then they weren`t known to be genetic.
and today they are breeding from dogs who have genetic health issues and are aware of the health test needed but they don`t feel they need to have them tested.as "back in the day"the tests weren`t nessecary.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Then its not irresponsible. We can't control everything, especially the unknown which is what it was in the 70s. It was the norm to breed without any health testing, but nowadays we know about it and can do something about it because these tests are available


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

fluffybunny2001 said:


> But what if someoone has been breeding since say the 70`s,when health testing wasn`t aorund,and they are breeding dogs that now have genetic health problems,but back then they weren`t known to be genetic.
> and today they are breeding from dogs who have genetic health issues and are aware of the health test needed but they don`t feel they need to have them tested.as "back in the day"the tests weren`t nessecary.


I was answering the accusation that people must have something to hide, not the fact that they shouldn't be health testing, but you have to put yourself in anothers shoes sometimes, and look at things from their point of view.
If you can do that, you have more chance of discussing things in a way that doesn't offend, and not just telling them that you are right and they are wrong.
That never helps trying to get things to go forward, just puts people on the defense


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Pug_D said:


> We can't guarentee them like a product from Argos!


Where there are DNA tests available you *can* make a guarantee that the offspring of a mating from two health tested dogs will be either clear or carriers, rather than affected.

Where there is no DNA test available, then no, you can't.

I believe that if a breeder can perform a test that will guarantee that any pups they breed will be free of a hereditary condition, they they should do so. I dont understand why someone wouldnt want to protect the futures of life they help create.


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## Pug_D (Feb 21, 2010)

Nonnie said:


> Where there are DNA tests available you *can* make a guarantee that the offspring of a mating from two health tested dogs will be either clear or carriers, rather than affected.
> 
> Where there is no DNA test available, then no, you can't.
> 
> I believe that if a breeder can perform a test that will guarantee that any pups they breed will be free of a hereditary condition, they they should do so. I dont understand why someone wouldnt want to protect the futures of life they help create.


But you can't fully guarentee a puppy! You can say they wont get 'x'x disease, but theres always U,V , W , Y, Z that they can get, hereditary or not!

That doesn't mean you shouldn't protect them fromthe ones you can, but people seem to think that a puppy is a product they can return if it goes wrong, but its not


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

Pug_D said:


> But you can't fully guarentee a puppy! You can say they wont get 'x'x disease, but theres always U,V , W , Y, Z that they can get, hereditary or not!
> 
> That doesn't mean you shouldn't protect them fromthe ones you can, but people seem to think that a puppy is a product they can return if it goes wrong, but its not


Who thinks that?
None of my dogs would ever leave me


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

I haven't been on the forum for a while, so missed the start of this, but well done Rona - what a great thread.

I think one thing it does is show how little most members really do understand about breeding, particularly pet owners. I think this forum does attract a lot of pet / byb simply because of the kind of membership here, compared with say on a breed forum where there are far more experienced and knowledgeable members. This is a pet forum so will tend to attract pet owners who don't have the indepth knowledge really required to breed properly.

One thing that I do find alarming is that people come on a forum to ask questions, and sometimes basic questions at that. It may be that I'm old enough to remember a time 'pre-internet' when 'knowledge' and answers were earned rather than simply going online and asking a few questions.
The internet is no substitute for real knowledge gained from those who have years of knowledge and experience. When I first started I got to know experienced knowledgeable breeders, had several mentoring me, actually attended whelpings before even embarking on breeding and that's quite apart from researching health testing and dogs. We live in an age of instant answers and 'everyone has the right to do what they want'. The problem is that so many don't realise that with 'rights' comes responsibilities :frown:

One could argue that there is no excuse for not knowing in this day and age of readily available information and it does surprise me that people say they have done their research and still show little knowledge.

I'm pretty shocked by people who know about health testing and choose not to use it. To me that smacks of ignorance, arrogance and possibly, in some cases, greed as they simply don't want to spend the money getting them done. If they have nothing to fear why not do them?

I do find the breeding section in this forum quite depressing at times and do not feel comfortable supporting irresponsible breeding practices enough to really offer any help, although hats off to those who do, particularly those who are biting their tongues while giving that help. I also suspect many experienced knowledgeable breeders who could help don't stay around for very long as it is too depressing reading how much of this kind of breeding is going on.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted by fluffybunny2001
> But what if someoone has been breeding since say the 70`s,when health testing wasn`t aorund,and they are breeding dogs that now have genetic health problems,but back then they weren`t known to be genetic.
> and today they are breeding from dogs who have genetic health issues and are aware of the health test needed but they don`t feel they need to have them tested.as "back in the day"the tests weren`t nessecary.


Sadly there are many that still think this way. The fact is that the dogs suffering from these genetic conditions today are descendants of the dogs that weren't tested years ago. It can only be ignorance, arrogance and perhaps penny pinching that prevents them from health testing their dogs.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Pug_D said:


> But you can't fully guarentee a puppy! You can say they wont get 'x'x disease, but theres always U,V , W , Y, Z that they can get, hereditary or not!
> 
> That doesn't mean you shouldn't protect them fromthe ones you can, but people seem to think that a puppy is a product they can return if it goes wrong, but its not


No, you cant guarantee that a dog won't ever get a disease, but in certain circumstances, you can guarantee that it won't get a specific one.

For instance with my breed the SBT there are DNA tests that, if carried out prior to a mating taking place, can guarantee (with the correct match of dam and sire) that pups won't get hereditary cataracts and start going blind at as little as 8 months of age, and inherit a metabolic disorder called L2 hydroxyglutaric aciduria or L-2-HGA which can cause, and i'll quote here:



> This condition manifests itself in varied ways with affected dogs displaying behavioural changes and dementia, anxiety attacks, having full blown seizures, as well as exercise intolerance and ataxia (unsteady gait), tremors and muscular stiffness


.

By performing health testing it is possible (in an ideal world) to irradicate these conditions from the breed. I can't see why any breeder wouldnt want to do that.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Tanya1989 said:


> But do you breed them?


*No but i might.*


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> Without getting into an argument, yes i do think it is irresponsible. 30 yrs ago there were hardly any testing done because these tests just didn't exist. Now they do and they are incredibly accurate so why not have them done?
> 
> The only reason I can see someone objecting to doing health testing is because they have something to hide JMHO


But there was testing 30 years ago. I worked for a vet in the early 70s and we used to xray hips and send the xrays away to be graded. I remember a bitch coming in and its hips were atrocious but they still bred from it because they said only the dog could pass it on! I had my sheltie bitch PRA and CEA tested in the 70s. It was very much in its infancy but the clinic I went to was full of shelties. We were not given certificates but were given advice on whether to breed. I know someone who had her collies cea tested and when one failed she again said it really didnt matter. But the tests WERE there, they might be more efficient and there might be more of them but HD and eye problems were certainly testable back then.
So for 35 years dogs HAVE been tested and still the genetic disorders abound. I dont think this forum is going to change a lot!


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

Blitz said:


> But there was testing 30 years ago. I worked for a vet in the early 70s and we used to xray hips and send the xrays away to be graded. I remember a bitch coming in and its hips were atrocious but they still bred from it because they said only the dog could pass it on! I had my sheltie bitch PRA and CEA tested in the 70s. It was very much in its infancy but the clinic I went to was full of shelties. We were not given certificates but were given advice on whether to breed. I know someone who had her collies cea tested and when one failed she again said it really didnt matter. But the tests WERE there, they might be more efficient and there might be more of them but HD and eye problems were certainly testable back then.
> So for 35 years dogs HAVE been tested and still the genetic disorders abound. I dont think this forum is going to change a lot!


They were but hardly anyone knew of them.
We didn't have Internet to help educate then


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Blitz said:


> But there was testing 30 years ago. I worked for a vet in the early 70s and we used to xray hips and send the xrays away to be graded. I remember a bitch coming in and its hips were atrocious but they still bred from it because they said only the dog could pass it on! I had my sheltie bitch PRA and CEA tested in the 70s. It was very much in its infancy but the clinic I went to was full of shelties. We were not given certificates but were given advice on whether to breed. I know someone who had her collies cea tested and when one failed she again said it really didnt matter. But the tests WERE there, they might be more efficient and there might be more of them but HD and eye problems were certainly testable back then.
> So for 35 years dogs HAVE been tested and still the genetic disorders abound. I dont think this forum is going to change a lot!


But thats not down to the tests, thats down to the arrogant attitude of the breeders that bred from failed dogs,

Mo


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> By performing health testing it is possible (in an ideal world) to irradicate these conditions from the breed. I can't see why any breeder wouldnt want to do that.


Absolutely - going back to the 50's when Irish Red Setters started having problems with what was then known as Night Blindness (PRA now) and the breeders, with the aid of the KC set up a scheme whereby the dogs were sent down a dimly lit corridor at the KC and if they had problems then they failed!!! If they failed then the KC simply refused to register any offspring. With only this very simple test Night Blindness was eliminated. This is long before DNA testing came about.



> So for 35 years dogs HAVE been tested and still the genetic disorders abound


You're absolutely right - hip and eye testing has been about for many years, however they were not widely used at all. In order to make a real difference the testing has to be used across the board. There are still many, many dogs that are not health tested so of course disorders still abound. There has been mention on this forum that health tests are not necessary - so it's not so different from all those years ago. Until health testing is done universally, it won't make a real difference across a breed as a whole.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

yep my parents were testing all those years ago, I think then they were given a grade and not a score, I know they never bred from anything that didnt have a grade suitable and I do believe that eye testing has been available for many many years as I seem to have been going annually since I was a kid, obviously technology has moved on and now things are even more accurate but that can only be for the better


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> You're absolutely right - hip and eye testing has been about for many years, however they were not widely used at all - too many people putting their heads into the sand, just as some appear to be doing in this thread. There are still many, many dogs that are not health tested so of course disorders still abound.


Not a very constructive comment, this has been a very informative thread.
Hopefully it will influence a few to consider health testing.
A comment like that can only be there to inflame things and possibly get this thread closed.
How is that going to ever help anyone or their dogs?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

It was an observation - sorry, it was not intended to antagonise or inflame. I have simply read people arguing that health testing is not necessary so was using that as an illustration that people still put their heads in the sand much as they did years ago, so how could one expect to eliminate these problems as they have done with night blindness in Irish Red Setters.

PS - Have edited it - hope it sounds less inflammatory.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> It was an observation - sorry, it was not intended to antagonise or inflame. I have simply read people arguing that health testing is not necessary so was using that as an illustration that people still put their heads in the sand much as they did years ago, so how could one expect to eliminate these problems as they have done with night blindness in Irish Red Setters.


You won't, not everyone will except the need, but it doesn't mean that we as a forum should stop trying.
If we can save one litter of sick puppies being born, then that has got to be worth the effort.
I'm sure that in the time I have been here, there have been many many sick puppies that have been prevented from being born.
Also several bitches who's lives have been saved


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> It was an observation - sorry, it was not intended to antagonise or inflame. I have simply read people arguing that health testing is not necessary so was using that as an illustration that people still put their heads in the sand much as they did years ago, so how could one expect to eliminate these problems as they have done with night blindness in Irish Red Setters.
> 
> PS - Have edited it - hope it sounds less inflammatory.


*Well i have stated my dogs are not health tested and wont be..but i'm not out to argue with anyone.I just believe i'm entitled to my own oppion.*


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> You won't, not everyone will except the need, but it doesn't mean that we as a forum should stop trying.
> If we can save one litter of sick puppies being born, then that has got to be worth the effort.
> I'm sure that in the time I have been here, there have been many many sick puppies that have been prevented from being born.
> Also several bitches who's lives have been saved


And I totally applaud that - my reply was really to Blitz's comment that health tests had been around for 35 years and still the problems existed. I was just saying that they won't be eliminated all the time the health test schemes aren't extensively used, but agree, if threads like these prevent just one litter being born from unhealth tested parents, whether that was through simple ignorance, or because the breeder knew about health tests but didn't bother, then it would be worth it.

I'd also add, that it is possible potential puppy owners may be reading threads like these and it helps inform them what health tests to ask when looking for a puppy too.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Sorry Janice - I see your side, as well as others - but one thing I have to pick you up on. The word is spelled OPINION. No offence - just an anorak regarding spelling


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

Wow the threads really taken off

Some good debate on the issues

If health checks are out there for the improvement of a breed then they should be done before any breeding goes on even if you are going to be breeding for pet dogs or if you are crossing 2 pedigrees such as cockers and poodles bith dogs need to have the health checks done
we have a mini schnauzer whos eyes are clear wev had her tested and we are in receipt of a 5 generation pedigree which will be checked out and if no eye conditions found then we will breed with her as intended when we bought her but these checks can not yet test for carriers so there may be a risk in any miniture schnauzers or any other breed with a condition that can be carried that pps will unfortunately be born with a condition, testing helps reduce this risk which can only be a good thing. For standard schnauzers there is at present no health checks needed but in time this may change, iv heard that the standard can suffer heart conditions so Mabel before she is bred will have a thorough health check and i will have her heart checked completely out with a scan and blood works carried out, not needed by any official body but A I dont want to lose her during the pregnancy or birth and dont want to pass ay cardiac problems onwards

I do think that we would all be wanting to do the best we can for the breeds we chose and by discussing all the needs of breeding and good health of all dogs is what we can as a group do, not insist on people doing it in any way and if the information is out there for people to access and they chose not to then this is down to them and people disagreeing can as some have already said opt out of the thread

But I will say its not only new breeders that dont health check and will leave it at that


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## poppydog1 (Mar 26, 2010)

Why hasnt health testing been made law,so that only health tested puppies can be kc registered, at the moment health testing is reccomended by KC but NOT compulsary why is it not made compulsary??


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

poppydog1 said:


> Why hasnt health testing been made law,so that only health tested puppies can be kc registered, at the moment health testing is reccomended by KC but NOT compulsary why is it not made compulsary??


That's what we would all like to know.
Why hasn't the kennel club acted on this


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

the KC is a registry they are not government nor the police, 

Mo


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Why hasnt health testing been made law,so that only health tested puppies can be kc registered, at the moment health testing is reccomended by KC but NOT compulsary why is it not made compulsary??


The Government can't legislate for any one organisation. It could be made compulsory to get KC registration and I believe it is in one breed, and from what I have heard, I suspect this is something that will happen in the future, although for reasons they believe in they are dragging their feet. Regardless, it will not stop puppies being bred from non health tested parents. There are probably as many if not more non kc registered dogs around and while over half (in my breed) of kc registered puppies come from health tested parents, the parents of non registered puppies are very rarely health tested.


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

moboyd said:


> the KC is a registry they are not government nor the police,
> 
> Mo


Then they should be able to say they will not register pups from non health tested parents, then the potential owners would know that if they are not registered they arent from health tested parents, not that the KC would do that cos they want every penny they can get!


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

moboyd said:


> the KC is a registry they are not government nor the police,
> 
> Mo


No, but they could refuse to register any without health tests



rocco33 said:


> The Government can't legislate for any one organisation. It could be made compulsory to get KC registration and I believe it is in one breed, and from what I have heard, I suspect this is something that will happen in the future, although for reasons they believe in they are dragging their feet. Regardless, it will not stop puppies being bred from non health tested parents. There are probably as many if not more non kc registered dogs around and while over half (in my breed) of kc registered puppies come from health tested parents, the parents of non registered puppies are very rarely health tested.


I may be a little cynical in this, but it may be because they would lose a huge part of their revenue


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Kinjilabs said:


> Then they should be able to say they will not register pups from non health tested parents, then the potential owners would know that if they are not registered they arent from health tested parents, not that the KC would do that cos they want every penny they can get!


not arguing with you on that one,

Mo


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

rona said:


> I may be a little cynical in this, but it may be because they would lose a huge part of their revenue


My thoughts exactly. I'm afraid the majority of breeders in the UK are BYB


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I may be a little cynical in this, but it may be because they would lose a huge part of their revenue


That may well be true (and I wouldn't argue with that  ), however, more importantly (at least for the future of dogs) it would deplete the gene pools even further. If people won't health test now.... why would they do it just because the KC insists on it. They wouldn't they would simply breed unregistered dogs, and this is exactly what has happened in Germany when they made health testing compulsory. Now, breeders come to the UK (and other countries) in order to try to widen their gene pool.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> That may well be true (and I wouldn't argue with that  ), however, more importantly (at least for the future of dogs) it would deplete the gene pools even further. If people won't health test now.... why would they do it just because the KC insists on it. They wouldn't they would simply breed unregistered dogs, and this is exactly what has happened in Germany when they made health testing compulsory. Now, breeders come to the UK (and other countries) in order to try to widen their gene pool.


But surely the good health tested gene pool wouldn't be any smaller than it is now? 
They would still continue to test


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

I may be wrong but i think even if the KC give you the acredted breeder award you dont have to show any proof of having health checked your dogs


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

mitch4 said:


> I may be wrong but i think even if the KC give you the acredted breeder award you dont have to show any proof of having health checked your dogs


I don't know about this, but I refuse to become an accredited breeder until they sort the scheme out anyway


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> I don't know about this, but I refuse to become an accredited breeder until they sort the scheme out anyway


same here :thumbup:


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Right guys.... well its been an interesting debate but I am cream Crackered and off to Bedfordshire for the night... Not often I go this early but I look shocking lol...... night all


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> But surely the good health tested gene pool wouldn't be any smaller than it is now?


It would make it worse because as more people use the health test schemes (and in spite of those that still don't, numbers of people that use them are increasing) so the genepool of healthy dogs increases. So untested dogs will have offspring that are tested. If you only allow those that are tested to be kc registered you cut out a lot of dogs. Take for example labs.... 45,000 registered per year. Around half from health tested parents..... so if compulsory health testing was brought in that would be only 22500 that could be registered... so 22 500 have been taken out of the gene pool. Now some of those 22 500 pups grow into nice dogs worth breeding and pass all their health tests... but they can't be registered as one of their parents wasn't registered, so the gene pool has automatically shrunk by half.

I would support compulsory health testing by the KC but it isn't without it's dangers.

On the other hand, the KC will not really make much of a dent in breeding practises. The only way to do that is through some kind of legislation which would, I guess, come under defra. That way it would cover ALL dogs.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> Sorry Janice - I see your side, as well as others - but one thing I have to pick you up on. The word is spelled OPINION. No offence - just an anorak regarding spelling


*Thats fine by me, i've always admited i can't spell and i'm not ashamed of it.*


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I may be wrong but i think even if the KC give you the acredted breeder award you dont have to show any proof of having health checked your dogs


Mitch the proof of health checks is done at the time of registering the litter. A friend was refused this because she did not have an eye test... although she did, but it was not the bva/kc scheme one which gets automatically sent in. She had to send them certificates before the litter could be registered under the ABS.


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## alaun (Jul 21, 2009)

For me, health tests are not expensive in comparison to the possible future vets bills of poorly pups, so I cannot see why someone would not have them done. They are not invasive and only take a short amount of time to have them done. 

In R&W setters, the first question asked when arranging for a stud dog, is "has your girl been tested and is she clear etc". If I answered "No" then I would not be allowed to use the boy. This would then mean I would have to find another and in my breed that is probably unlikely.

We have a very small gene pool and a lot of work has been done to eradicate health issues. One breeder has recently used a dog known to be a carrier and word has spread pretty quickly. I will now make sure that their line never crosses paths with mine. 

To me, knowing about tests, and knowing about health issues that may arise in your breed, but doing nothing about it constitutes BYB. 

Of course there will be dogs that are not health tested that are fine, but these are the ones that would get the all clear if they were tested. So why not do the best for your breed and find out?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

alaun said:


> For me, health tests are not expensive in comparison to the possible future vets bills of poorly pups, so I cannot see why someone would not have them done. They are not invasive and only take a short amount of time to have them done.
> 
> In R&W setters, the first question asked when arranging for a stud dog, is "has your girl been tested and is she clear etc". If I answered "No" then I would not be allowed to use the boy. This would then mean i would have to find another and in my breed that is probably unlikely.
> 
> ...


*And in my oppion that statement is rubish.But you can have your oppion and i'll have mine.*


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

alaun said:


> For me, health tests are not expensive in comparison to the possible future vets bills of poorly pups, so I cannot see why someone would not have them done. They are not invasive and only take a short amount of time to have them done.
> 
> In R&W setters, the first question asked when arranging for a stud dog, is "has your girl been tested and is she clear etc". If I answered "No" then I would not be allowed to use the boy. This would then mean i would have to find another and in my breed that is probably unlikely.
> 
> ...


I agree! :thumbup:

If you can do your best for your dog/bitch and puppies then why don't you?

I just can not understand why people do not heath test? It completely perplex's me!


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

alaun said:


> For me, health tests are not expensive in comparison to the possible future vets bills of poorly pups, so I cannot see why someone would not have them done. They are not invasive and only take a short amount of time to have them done.
> 
> In R&W setters, the first question asked when arranging for a stud dog, is "has your girl been tested and is she clear etc". If I answered "No" then I would not be allowed to use the boy. This would then mean i would have to find another and in my breed that is probably unlikely.
> 
> ...


totally agree, those that dont lets face it really just cant be arsed and are saving a few bob, simple as that IMO.

Mo


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

alaun said:


> For me, health tests are not expensive in comparison to the possible future vets bills of poorly pups, so I cannot see why someone would not have them done. They are not invasive and only take a short amount of time to have them done.
> 
> In R&W setters, the first question asked when arranging for a stud dog, is "has your girl been tested and is she clear etc". If I answered "No" then I would not be allowed to use the boy. This would then mean i would have to find another and in my breed that is probably unlikely.
> 
> ...


Completely agree. Excellent post... rep given :thumbup:


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## gesic (Feb 19, 2009)

Having had a dog drop dead age 2 with a hereditory condition I know only too well the utter devistation and trauma that NOT health testing can bring.
To continue to breed despite having these tests available shows utter disregard for their breed and only proves that they care more for money and pos glory in the show ring.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

I suppose apart from the cheapskate angle of not having the tests done, there is also the possiblility that someone has plans, and are too worried the dogs may fail, and scupper their plans? either way its no excuse IMO

Mo


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

Lets not forget, that some people don't even know of the existence of health tests.
They aren't necessarily bad people, just ignorant of all the facts


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

rona said:


> Lets not forget, that some people don't even know of the existence of health tests.
> They aren't necessarily bad people, just ignorant of all the facts


totally understand that, but hasnt this thread been started because people were supposed to be bombarding members about health tests, if they are not told they will continue to be ignorant to the fact they ARE available. once they know they are available and dont have them and breed then they do go into IMO the cheapskate cant be bothered group.

mo


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

There will always be bad breeders out there, some are blinde to the fact that there breeding or planning to breed irresponsibly and some know full well what there doing but just dont care..while a forum and its members support such a thing there is nothing others can do about it..
no one should have a litter and then start asking questions, if you need to ask questions on a forum about whelping or raising your pups when there here, then sorry you are not the sort of breeder i would go to..
breeders should be knowledgeable in there breed, and confident that when there dog gives birth they can do and give her everything she needs, they should also be confident that they can raise pups to a high standard and find them perfect homes..anyone asking questions to strangers on a forum well there not all that confident.
and im not talking about people asking questions and researching before there first litter.

I think its good other members sit up and help people with there girl when she goes through the most stressful confusing time of her life, but have any of you sat back and thought why these decent folk sit up and help members with there due litters? I dont think its coz they wanna stay up late that night i think its because they feel the dog needs some one there to help there silly owner who put there dog in a situation they knew nothing about.


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

moboyd said:


> totally understand that, but hasnt this thread been started because people were supposed to be bombarding members about health tests, if they are not told they will continue to be ignorant to the fact they ARE available. once they know they are available and dont have them and breed then they do go into IMO the cheapskate cant be bothered group.
> 
> mo


Oh I agree, but as this thread has also shown, some people have even taken advice from what anyone would consider "reliable" sources of information, and still either not been told about tests or even worse been told that they shouldn't bother with them.
This is the most upsetting thing that I have learned from this thread


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

crazy said:


> There will always be bad breeders out there, some are blinde to the fact that there breeding or planning to breed irresponsibly and some know full well what there doing but just dont care..while a forum and its members support such a thing there is nothing others can do about it..
> no one should have a litter and then start asking questions, if you need to ask questions on a forum about whelping or raising your pups when there here, then sorry you are not the sort of breeder i would go to..
> breeders should be knowledgeable in there breed, and confident that when there dog gives birth they can do and give her everything she needs, they should also be confident that they can raise pups to a high standard and find them perfect homes..anyone asking questions to strangers on a forum well there not all that confident.
> and im not talking about people asking questions and researching before there first litter.
> ...


good post.



rona said:


> Oh I agree, but as this thread has also shown, some people have even taken advice from what anyone would consider "reliable" sources of information, and still either not been told about tests or even worse been told that they shouldn't bother with them.
> This is the most upsetting thing that I have learned from this thread :
> (


That is very true, and I agree upsetting,and frustrating.

mo


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

tashi said:


> at present there does not appear to be any necessary health tests for pugs


The KC need to get alot stricter then, the pugs are suffering along with other breeds, and i take my hat off to them breeders that already test with out having to, they clearly do it for the sake of the breed and any pups they breed.
our breed has NO necessary tests, so what, that doesnt mean anything to us..we know our breed can often suffer from 4 types of eye problems so we tests for them..any breeder should test for anything they knew there breed can suffer from, that splits the good breeders apart from the bad.
I would not like to bring pups into the world for them later to develop something i could test there parents for, nor would i like to be took to court for it.

and bordie, how the hell do you know your dogs dont suffer from genetic issues if you dont test for them..gosh you must be god, please come and check our dogs will save us a small fortune in testing! thanks


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

crazy said:


> The KC need to get alot stricter then, the pugs are suffering along with other breeds, and i take my hat off to them breeders that already test with out having to, they clearly do it for the sake of the breed and any pups they breed.
> our breed has NO necessary tests, so what, that doesnt mean anything to us..we know our breed can often suffer from 4 types of eye problems so we tests for them..any breeder should test for anything they knew there breed can suffer from, that splits the good breeders apart from the bad.
> I would not like to bring pups into the world for them later to develop something i could test there parents for, nor would i like to be took to court for it.
> 
> and bordie, how the hell do you know your dogs dont suffer from genetic issues if you dont test for them..gosh you must be god, please come and check our dogs will save us a small fortune in testing! thanks


when you want me round over 30 years no problems


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## Bearpaw (Dec 10, 2009)

Crazy,people are not born 'breeders' ,they have to learn and gain experience.Every breeder was once a first timer,who chose to go into breeding further.
The impression that i am getting is,that unless all of us forum members have done health testing on our dogs,its going to be a 'them and us' situation,which ultimately makes this forum section unwelcoming to those that havent.(pushing away people who may have no other place to ask questions)


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

Bearpaw said:


> Crazy,people are not born 'breeders' ,they have to learn and gain experience.Every breeder was once a first timer,who chose to go into breeding further.
> The impression that i am getting is,that unless all of us forum members have done health testing on our dogs,its going to be a 'them and us' situation,which ultimately makes this forum section unwelcoming to those that havent.(pushing away people who may have no other place to ask questions)


oh you are so right, people are not just born breeders..but people wanting to be breeders, will sit and think long and hard about what they can offer the breed, there not blinde to what goes in to breeding and if they cant offer everything they will walk away! How ever if they feel they can add a little something they will go the whole hog to do that...they want to make a difference to the breed so wont just have a litter for experience then another then anothert and so on..they will test so they know the lines there working with are clear from genetic issues, if there not then they will sit back down and choose another line to work with that is clear!

and newbie breeders that are serious should not be on a forum asking questions, but should have a mentor for example the breeder they got there foundation bitch from? Getting opinions from members is totally different from getting there facts and advice from forum members..dont forget us on the forum dont know each other from adam, so how can we take there adive seriously when it comes to putting our bitches life at risk?


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## Bearpaw (Dec 10, 2009)

And this applies to crossbreeds too then? they have no breeder to mentor them,the vets are not supplying the info on tests,they have to ask questions somewhere.Not everyone wants to have a kc reg,scored dog.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Bearpaw said:


> And this applies to crossbreeds too then? they have no breeder to mentor them,the vets are not supplying the info on tests,they have to ask questions somewhere.Not everyone wants to have a kc reg,scored dog.


Yep, and those are the ones who should be going to shelters and rescues, not BYBs


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

crazy said:


> oh you are so right, people are not just born breeders..but people wanting to be breeders, will sit and think long and hard about what they can offer the breed, there not blinde to what goes in to breeding and if they cant offer everything they will walk away! How ever if they feel they can add a little something they will go the whole hog to do that...they want to make a difference to the breed so wont just have a litter for experience then another then anothert and so on..they will test so they know the lines there working with are clear from genetic issues, if there not then they will sit back down and choose another line to work with that is clear!
> 
> and newbie breeders that are serious should not be on a forum asking questions, but should have a mentor for example the breeder they got there foundation bitch from? Getting opinions from members is totally different from getting there facts and advice from forum members..dont forget us on the forum dont know each other from adam, so how can we take there adive seriously when it comes to putting our bitches life at risk?


I'm sorry, but someone on here did that and was told by their breeder, that health tests were not necessary. Now if that person hadn't come on this forum, they would have gone ahead and bred, with no knowledge of what it really entailed


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

Bearpaw said:


> And this applies to crossbreeds too then? they have no breeder to mentor them,the vets are not supplying the info on tests,they have to ask questions somewhere.Not everyone wants to have a kc reg,scored dog.


cant really comment on that as crosss breeding is irresponsible imo anyway.

well Rona they clearly didnt buy from a decent breeder, thats another sad thing..some breeders give the public no chance and fool them into things..


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## Our Cheeky Chihuahuas (Jan 5, 2010)

I totally agree with most posts ive read on this topic already! My most recent litter was fine but ive had bad experiences as much as any other breeder! 

Theres a lot of people out there recently who are breeding their pets. IMO It doesnt improve the breed instead it is breeding out the traits of a bred that make it to breed standard . For example theres a lot of people now breeding their pet Chihuahuas This doesnt help when theyre growing to be twice the size theyre supposed to be and having many of the breeds other traits lost. Theres people doing this purely for money.

Ive recently encountered a lady who bred 3 out of 4 of her Chihuahuas they all lost their puppies and need c-sections due to a poorlymatched stud. She had no mentor or some one personal to help her if she needed it. Then when her 4th girl came into seaosn she is planning on breeding her!! They were her pets aged from 12-32 months who she'd raised from puppies. Not everthing can go rght for a first time breeder and you should seek a lot of help from experienced people if you're considering it

Everyone is intitled to an opinion though and some people need to remember this.


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

crazy said:


> cant really comment on that as crosss breeding is irresponsible imo anyway.
> 
> well Rona they clearly didnt buy from a decent breeder, thats another sad thing..some breeders give the public no chance and fool them into things..


That's why we should be here to help and inform 
Judging everyone without knowing the facts behind the story is all to easy in my opinion.
No one on here is perfect, yes some will have knowledge of breeding, others of veterinary matters and some one somewhere here, will hopefully have the answer or at least an idea to help a poster


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

rona said:


> That's why we should be here to help and inform
> Judging everyone without knowing the facts behind the story is all to easy in my opinion.
> No one on here is perfect, yes some will have knowledge of breeding, others of veterinary matters and some one somewhere here, will hopefully have the answer or at least an idea to help a poster


I get what your saying Rona, and theres a but  there is no reason good enough for me that justifies some one breeding there dog with no experience or anyone to be there and help that has experience.!!!
I might ask for opinions on a forum about breeding, but i would never ask for advice regarding breeding, its a very dangerous thing and we are not to know that everyone says they are who they are or has whelped a litter ect..takes the person to give one wrong bit of advice (which i have seen so many time on forums) the newbie breeder does what she is told by some one she thinks is knowlegable and experience and bang that bitch or her pup is dead! sorry to be so blunt but the fact is with the wrong advice and the wrong care things do and will go wrong.


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

crazy said:


> cant really comment on that as crosss breeding is irresponsible imo anyway.
> 
> well Rona they clearly didnt buy from a decent breeder, thats another sad thing..some breeders give the public no chance and fool them into things..


crossbreeding is irresponsible all dogs are crossbreeds


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

borderer said:


> crossbreeding is irresponsible all dogs are crossbreeds


aw you are a clever sausage arent you dear!


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## Our Cheeky Chihuahuas (Jan 5, 2010)

borderer said:


> crossbreeding is irresponsible all dogs are crossbreeds


indeed i agree with this point! Each breed started from somewhere


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

Pedigree dogs are breed for certain traits, type and structure, there is a set standard for them..no matter how they started.
There isnt for cross breeds..when breeding them you havent a clue what the parents will produce, what problems the pups will suffer ect! you have an idea with established breeds.

Plus there are plenty of breeds out there that can be used to work and so on, that im my views no more breeds need to be around.. I am also yet to find a decent breeder that cross breeds..


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

crazy said:


> Pedigree dogs are breed for certain traits, type and structure, there is a set standard for them..no matter how they started.
> There isnt for cross breeds..when breeding them you havent a clue what the parents will produce, what problems the pups will suffer ect! you have an idea with established breeds.
> 
> Plus there are plenty of breeds out there that can be used to work and so on, that im my views no more breeds need to be around.. I am also yet to find a decent breeder that cross breeds..


would you like my number


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

borderer said:


> would you like my number


no thank you.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

crazy said:


> The KC need to get alot stricter then, the pugs are suffering along with other breeds, and i take my hat off to them breeders that already test with out having to, they clearly do it for the sake of the breed and any pups they breed.
> our breed has NO necessary tests, so what, that doesnt mean anything to us..we know our breed can often suffer from 4 types of eye problems so we tests for them..any breeder should test for anything they knew there breed can suffer from, that splits the good breeders apart from the bad.
> I would not like to bring pups into the world for them later to develop something i could test there parents for, nor would i like to be took to court for it.
> 
> and bordie, how the hell do you know your dogs dont suffer from genetic issues if you dont test for them..gosh you must be god, please come and check our dogs will save us a small fortune in testing! thanks


what breed do you have


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

tashi said:


> what breed do you have


.........


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

crazy said:


> Pedigree dogs are breed for certain traits, type and structure, there is a set standard for them..no matter how they started.
> There isnt for cross breeds..when breeding them you havent a clue what the parents will produce, what problems the pups will suffer ect! you have an idea with established breeds.
> 
> Plus there are plenty of breeds out there that can be used to work and so on, that im my views no more breeds need to be around.. I am also yet to find a decent breeder that cross breeds..


*You say pedigree dogs are bred for certain standards but some of those so called standards are nothing short of cruel in my oppion.What good does it do to breed an animal with some of the problems some dogs have. ie where their faces are so squashed they find it harder to breathe? That in my oppion is far worse than not health testing.*


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *You say pedigree dogs are bred for certain standards but some of thos so called standards are nothing short of cruel in my oppion.What good does it do to breed an animal with some of the problems some dogs have. ie where their faces are so squashed they find it harder to breathe? That in my oppion is far worse than not health testing.*


I totally agree


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## Cay (Jun 22, 2009)

As someone who tested their first bitch knowing full well the result could mean my youngest bitch was affected, then I had good reason to be scared of the results but it's why we did it as I couldn't bear to think that I'd caused suffering, as it was we were fortunate that both tested clear .


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *You say pedigree dogs are bred for certain standards but some of those so called standards are nothing short of cruel in my oppion.What good does it do to breed an animal with some of the problems some dogs have. ie where their faces are so squashed they find it harder to breathe? That in my oppion is far worse than not health testing.*


the kennel club ar trying to rectify some of the sad health issues brought about by breeders breeding for certain features, judges are now being monitored at major champ shows to ensure that the dogs they place are in fact fit for function, it is little steps granted but at least its heading in the right direction. taken from the KC website.

"*The decisions made by judges in the show ring strongly influence future breeding plans

Judges must take conformation related health problems and temperament into account when making their decisions as well as breed type

All show dogs should be Fit For Function: Fit For Life

Judges should never award prizes to dogs which are visibly suffering from any condition which would adversely affect their health or welfare. For example:

Obvious breathing difficulty

Significantly over or under weight dogs

Lameness, including hopping

A discharge from one or both eyes or any signs of discomfort in either eye

Obvious skin or ear irritation

Inappropriate temperament - refusal to be handled, timidity or aggression

Exaggerations that would make the dog unsuited for fulfilling its original purpose

A judge is expected to make such decisions based on their extensive experience of dogs as owners and breeders  they are not expected to display the knowledge of a veterinary surgeon and should not undertake any extra examination of a dog other than that which they would normally perform in assessing general fitness and breed type.

Breed Watch

Particular points of concern for individual breeds may include features not specifically highlighted in the breed standard. The features listed are derived from health surveys, a meeting of Kennel Club Group Judges (Feb 2009), feedback from judges at shows and consultation with individual breed clubs / councils.

The Kennel Clubs required training programme for new show judges consists of a number of compulsory seminars. The content of all of these contains material relating to Fit for Function: Fit for Life

Judges should as part of their ongoing development keep themselves up to date on breed standards and any changes to Rules and Regulations that have an impact on Canine Health and Welfare."*

its now up to the breeders to breed from dogs that are fit for function, and to improve the health in their dogs, health tests will obviously be part of this too. so I am guessing those who wont health tests, are the ones not prepared to work forward and improve the health of the dogs they breed.

Mo


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

crazy said:


> Pedigree dogs are breed for certain traits, type and structure, there is a set standard for them..no matter how they started.
> *There isnt for cross breeds..when breeding them you havent a clue what the parents will produce, what problems the pups will suffer ect! you have an idea with established breeds.*
> 
> Plus there are plenty of breeds out there that can be used to work and so on, that im my views no more breeds need to be around.. I am also yet to find a decent breeder that cross breeds..


Sorry Crazy but this is total bunk.

Where I live, in Canada, we have not ever really embraced the European purebred way of doing things, and therefore just a little over 10% of our dogs are registered.

To take your point of view means eliminating 90% of breeder's choice in stock for no other reason than they are not registered. What an absolute and complete loss in genetic diversity dogs as a whole would suffer from with this POV.

That does not mean, as you state, that breeders are breeding blind about temperament, sound movement and build, working traits, or without ancestral knowledge. Many have known ancestors and pedigrees - just ask any stockman who breeds working dogs . . . and there are plenty of examples.

Save Our Dogs » Working Dogs

"Typically none of the working stock dogs in California would qualify for a spay/neuter exemption under a mandatory spay/neuter law. *Most of these dogs are unregistered, and many are mixed breeds.* Of those that are registered few working stock dogs are trained for or compete in trials. As a result almost none would qualify an exemption. Mandatory spay/neuter would destroy working stock dog breeding in California.

A number of stock dog breeds would simply go extinct in California. They would not be eligible for an exemption. Ironically, this includes the McNab, a working stock dog developed in California over 100 years ago. This unique part of our state heritage, handed down from generation to generation for over a century, would disappear in just over a decade if mandatory spay/neuter becomes law.

As with police service dogs, there would be no future generations of California-bred stock dogs under mandatory spay/neuter, because very few of them are used for herding or guarding livestock when they are puppies. Almost all of the future generation of working stock dogs would be subject to mandatory sterilization before they would be eligible for an exemption. This destroys the breeding population. There is really no way to write an exemption to a mandatory spay/neuter law to adequately protect the livestock industry."​
Just one example, if you are not aware, many, many of the guide dog associations have their very own MIXED BREED stock that they work from . . . and another would be SARS dogs.

Search and Rescue Dog Breeds

"many SAR dogs are mixed breeds and sometimes even totally mongrel. An important aspect in any dog being trained for Search and rescue is their ability to play. The*se types of dogs who love to play fetch and return games* are more likely to learn to work for rewards. This gives them the drive to continue through long training sessions as well as long search missions once they are ready."​
The fact that you don't personally know a good mutt or crossbreed breeder means very little as there are others, including myself, who do. Maybe those who haven't met one need some more experience in life, or possibly need to walk around with open eyes before they slag off mixed bred dog breeders with sentences like the one bolded above (*you havent a clue . . . *)

There is very, very little about the purebred breeding and registration system that I believe needs to be embraced.

If you like it, fine, then buy or breed what you like, but don't try to impose that as the only "proper' way on the rest of us. This forum does reach world wide.

I don't like it that AR propoganda here has targetted mixbreeds and by doing has helped the registries market their purebred product to the point that mandatory spay/neuter legislation in some areas now threatens our mixed dogs. I regularly thank God that I live in a country that doesn't have 75% purebreds like some in Europe. The system they are bred within definately does not deserve to be held up as the ideal, or the only proper breeding system.

CC


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I have to admit that my new pup was bought from health tested parents and I only looked for pups from tested parents - but 20+ years ago I bought two collies from farms (no health test) and they were fine - but then I had no intent of breeding. The breeder of my pup is quite keen that I breed from my girl but will only lift the restriction IF I health test. There is a _possibility_ she a TNS carrier so I NEED to test otherwise I could cause untold suffering to the puppies.

I came across this in my Birman breeding - unknown to me my queen had HCM a genetic condition (no test available) she has passed this on to at least one of her kittens. I've now given up breeding as I found it all too traumatic, and the responsibility of selling on 'faulty' kittens (even though I didn't know) too much. I couldn't do the same with my pup. She will be tested before we even *think *about whether to breed or spay.

I don't say that to NOT test is irresponsible . . . but if you know there are problems then testing is appropriate.


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

rona said:


> Oh I agree, but as this thread has also shown, some people have even taken advice from what anyone would consider "reliable" sources of information, and still either not been told about tests or even worse been told that they shouldn't bother with them.
> This is the most upsetting thing that I have learned from this thread [/QUOTE
> 
> i agree...and there is also the case that people were suggesting irrelevant tests picked at random from this or the other "test site" etc... and told them off (to plain insult) for not complying...
> ...


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

lorilu said:


> Yep, and those are the ones who should be going to shelters and rescues, not BYBs





crazy said:


> cant really comment on that as crosss breeding is irresponsible imo anyway.
> 
> (


??? why ???
aren't we "allowed" to breed ???
what sort of remark are those?
probably is the kind the OP referred to when the thread was started...

best 
D


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

dimkaz said:


> i agree...and there is also the case that people were suggesting irrelevant tests picked at random from this or the other "test site" etc... and told them off (to plain insult) for not complying...
> 
> i guess that there must be a balance between giving sound advice considering all the research, knowledge and experience necessary to be able to give such advice and cheap/quick and sometimes wrong "advice" that more often than not ends up in blunt insult.
> 
> ...


I agree, I just about know enough to discuss this subject, but I admit to knowing very little and wouldn't dream of giving advice other than to say that health tests should be carried out.
I can and do however give an opinion, an opinion is not fact and should never be held up as anything more than it is


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

comfortcreature said:


> Sorry Crazy but this is total bunk.
> 
> Where I live, in Canada, we have not ever really embraced the European purebred way of doing things, and therefore just a little over 10% of our dogs are registered.
> 
> ...


great post


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

nope not total bunk my opinion, and im sorry but i cant possible see how you know what your going to get when cross breeding..it takes a long time to get your type when breeding pedigrees..until you get your type its pretty much the same as cross breeding you arent sure what you will get thats why pedigree breeders work hard to establish a certain type they want, therefore can 'predict' what the pups will be like.

Of course all my posts on this thread and any other are nothing more than my opinions.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

crazy said:


> nope not total bunk my opinion, *and im sorry but i cant possible see how you know what your going to get when cross breeding*..it takes a long time to get your type when breeding pedigrees..until you get your type its pretty much the same as cross breeding you arent sure what you will get thats why pedigree breeders work hard to establish a certain type they want, therefore can 'predict' what the pups will be like.
> 
> Of course all my posts on this thread and any other are nothing more than my opinions.


It is obvious you have decided to choose not to.

Precise phenotypic type is not terribly important to those not involved in the show world and means very little.

Exclusive of phenotypic type, temperament and working traits can be bred forward from (obviously) in mixed breeds, or so many - as example above - wouldn't have such success doing so. The full history of dog breeding without purebreds as defined by registries until the 19th century also speaks to this.

CC


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## Bearpaw (Dec 10, 2009)

But surely this section in this forum is for one and all,not just pedigree,health tested dogs? some people choose not to have pedigree dogs,that is personal choice.There are forums specific to every breed of dog that are usually full of members with health tested pedigree dogs.This is a petforum,and covers all pets,including crossbreeds and non tested,that means everyone should be welcom to join and ask for help.
Being informative is great, being helpful is great,being condescending and rude about other people choices isnt.in my opinion.


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

crazy said:


> nope not total bunk my opinion, and im sorry but i cant possible see how you know what your going to get when cross breeding..it takes a long time to get your type when breeding pedigrees..until you get your type its pretty much the same as cross breeding you arent sure what you will get thats why pedigree breeders work hard to establish a certain type they want, therefore can 'predict' what the pups will be like.
> 
> Of course all my posts on this thread and any other are nothing more than my opinions.


So, guide dogs for the blind don't know what they are getting??????
I cannot see that that is accurate


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

rona said:


> So, guide dogs for the blind don't know what they are getting??????
> I cannot see that that is accurate


No i wouldnt say they do, even with pedigree breeding you dont know what you are going to get, some dogs are not suited to each other and that will come through in the pups..you can aim to have certain things in the pups like speed for example but thats not to say you will get that in any pups let alone one.

plus pups have to go through mega amounts of training and tests before being accepted as guide dogs and they will take on near on anything if it was good at what they wanted.


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## RachyBobs (Oct 18, 2009)

omg is this thread still be thrashed 

i breed to keep the gene pool yet people still say 'what you breed?' yes is that a huge crime? 'um well theres loads of dogs in rescues' umm yes well NOT MY BREED 'i bet i can find some' yeah go on then mayyyteee!!' 'um no sorry i cant find any' yeah stick that up your ass and smoke it clever sh*te  

i hear this all the time and im PEEVED


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

RachyBobs said:


> omg is this thread still be thrashed
> 
> i breed to keep the gene pool yet people still say 'what you breed?' yes is that a huge crime? 'um well theres loads of dogs in rescues' umm yes well NOT MY BREED 'i bet i can find some' yeah go on then mayyyteee!!' 'um no sorry i cant find any' yeah stick that up your ass and smoke it clever sh*te
> 
> i hear this all the time and im PEEVED


UK Irish Wolfhound Rescue Trust

Sadly I have no pipe to smoke :lol:


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## RachyBobs (Oct 18, 2009)

sequeena said:


> UK Irish Wolfhound Rescue Trust
> 
> Sadly I have no pipe to smoke :lol:


yes there is a resuce but no dogs to rescue!!!! this is my argument!!! i am on that list, i have been for 15 years - only the ODD occasion i get a call asking if i can take 1...


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

crazy said:


> No i wouldnt say they do, even with pedigree breeding you dont know what you are going to get, .


I guess that's it then. No more breeding should be sanctioned because nothing is totally predictable. Anything less than totally predictable is, in some way or another, cruel.

The AR fanatics get their way and we'll see no pets in homes in 15 years.

CC


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

RachyBobs said:


> yes there is a resuce but no dogs to rescue!!!! this is my argument!!! i am on that list, i have been for 15 years - only the ODD occasion i get a call asking if i can take 1...


No idea if there's dogs there, there's on an application link  it's great there's none in rescue, probably because they're rare.


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## RachyBobs (Oct 18, 2009)

Hold on i have an idea everyone.. Lets stop breeding and allow people to rescue  good grieffff...


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## RachyBobs (Oct 18, 2009)

sequeena said:


> No idea if there's dogs there, there's on an application link  it's great there's none in rescue, probably because they're rare.


yes u can apply but hear nothing, they are so rare and this is my argument people look at me funny when they know i breed but my breed has died out once before, if people didnt breed then there wouldnt be any.. its the same with other rare breeds but yet people cant grasp it... :


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Bearpaw said:


> But surely this section in this forum is for one and all,not just pedigree,health tested dogs? some people choose not to have pedigree dogs,that is personal choice.There are forums specific to every breed of dog that are usually full of members with health tested pedigree dogs.This is a petforum,and covers all pets,including crossbreeds and non tested,that means everyone should be welcom to join and ask for help.
> Being informative is great, being helpful is great,being condescending and rude about other people choices isnt.in my opinion.


*Thankyou, i'm glad i'm not the only one that can see ALL sides.:thumbup:*


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

crazy said:


> No i wouldnt say they do, even with pedigree breeding you dont know what you are going to get, some dogs are not suited to each other and that will come through in the pups..you can aim to have certain things in the pups like speed for example but thats not to say you will get that in any pups let alone one.
> 
> plus pups have to go through mega amounts of training and tests before being accepted as guide dogs and they will take on near on anything if it was good at what they wanted.


  

They have spent decades breeding very carefully several pure breeds and crossbreeds with the health and attributes they require.
Of course not all the puppies will make guide dogs, they are not machines, they are living creatures


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

comfortcreature said:


> I guess that's it then. No more breeding should be sanctioned because nothing is totally predictable.
> 
> The AR fanatics get their way and we'll see no pets in homes in 15 years.
> 
> CC


PMSL thats is not what i said, when breeding breeders should be aiming for something if that be tempermants, structure ect! of course we are not god so we dont know what will be produced..we can hope and plan for what we want, for us thats the next show pup thats as healthy as we can plan, as sound in mind and body as we can plan and is as near to the breed standard as we can plan, for others it might be the next working dog and for others well might just be the next sofa dog..


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

This thread has now gone completely off track


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

crazy said:


> PMSL thats is not what i said, when breeding breeders should be aiming for something if that be tempermants, structure ect! of course we are not god so we dont know what will be produced..we can hope and plan for what we want, for us thats the next show pup thats as healthy as we can plan, as sound in mind and body as we can plan and is as near to the breed standard as we can plan, for others it might be the next working dog and for others well might just be the next sofa dog..


*Sorry but your confusing me.You say we should be aiming for something ect ect. and yet you agreed with me earlier when i said some pedigree dogs are worse health wise. ie with breathing problems.*


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

RachyBobs said:


> yes u can apply but hear nothing, they are so rare and this is my argument people look at me funny when they know i breed but my breed has died out once before, if people didnt breed then there wouldnt be any.. its the same with other rare breeds but yet people cant grasp it... :


Can I ask how you got the breed back if they died? Probably a daft question...


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *Sorry but your confusing me.You say we should be aiming for something ect ect. and yet you agreed with me earlier when i said some pedigree dogs are worse health wise. ie with breathing problems.*


I dont see how your confused by that!?? yes people should be breeding for a reason and not for the sake of it, and yes people should only be breeding from health tested parents!

no people should not be breeding from dogs that cant breath, cant give birth on there own nor breed to a stanard that would make a dog suffer like that.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

RachyBobs said:


> Hold on i have an idea everyone.. Lets stop breeding and allow people to rescue  good grieffff...


i dont understand the relevance of what ur saying to this thread 

Its not about not breeding dogs, its about health testing as far as i was aware .... unless i missed something...


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

sequeena said:


> Can I ask how you got the breed back if they died? Probably a daft question...


not a daft question if it died out its gone for good


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

crazy said:


> PMSL thats is not what i said,


The quote was from you directly. What I said is what that kind of thinking leads to. Again, I'm sure you don't care to see that.



crazy said:


> when breeding breeders should be aiming for something if that be tempermants, structure ect! of course we are not god so we dont know what will be produced..we can hope and plan for what we want, for us thats the next show pup thats as healthy as we can plan, as sound in mind and body as we can plan and is as near to the breed standard as we can plan, for others it might be the next working dog and for others well might just be the next sofa dog..


Absolutely agree with this . . . . do not agree that purebreds are the only dogs that can be used to achieve such goals - if they were then I would not be living in a country where the vast majority of our dogs are still muttbred or mixed bred, and in a province where our city rescues/pounds place all our healthy and adoptable. The encroachment of the purebred world with its cast off ex breeding bitches and left over puppies, and the marketting of the purebred as valued mainly by phenotype, threatens this.

CC


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

Natik said:


> i dont understand the relevance of what ur saying to this thread
> 
> Its not about not breeding dogs, its about health testing as far as i was aware .... unless i missed something...


:thumbup: and how best to help people that come here, without scaring them off


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

crazy said:


> I dont see how your confused by that!?? yes people should be breeding for a reason and not for the sake of it, and yes people should only be breeding from health tested parents!
> 
> no people should not be breeding from dogs that cant breath, cant give birth on there own nor breed to a stanard that would make a dog suffer like that.


*Well i think you and i have been reading from different pages on here. I have seen some people say as an example. pugs have problems with breathing,or chi's have problems self whelping ect ect. but it ok to continue breeding such animals?
Just to add to any owner of the above i used what i have read on here and elsewhere.*


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

My apologies Rona


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

rona said:


> :thumbup: and how best to help people that come here, without scaring them off


......... :thumbup:


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *Well i think you and i have been reading from different pages on here. I have seen some people say as an example. pugs have problems with breathing,or chi's have problems self whelping ect ect. but it ok to continue breeding such animals?
> Just to add to any owner of the above i used what i have read on here and elsewhere.*


yep pugs have problems breathing so you would aim to breed the nose a little longer and not sunk into the head..
sorry i dont get what you mean really im getting totally confused


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rona said:


> :thumbup: and how best to help people that come here, without scaring them off





crazy said:


> yep pugs have problems breathing so you would aim to breed the nose a little longer and not sunk into the head..
> sorry i dont get what you mean really im getting totally confused


*But if you asked a pug breeder they often say, its down to the health tests this breed needs.*


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

RachyBobs said:


> omg is this thread still be thrashed
> 
> i breed to keep the gene pool yet people still say 'what you breed?' yes is that a huge crime? 'um well theres loads of dogs in rescues' umm yes well NOT MY BREED 'i bet i can find some' yeah go on then mayyyteee!!' 'um no sorry i cant find any' yeah stick that up your ass and smoke it clever sh*te
> 
> i hear this all the time and im PEEVED


google Irish wolfhounds for sale, and there are tonns of them on the listed sites, obviously I cannot give the links but they are there, many many puppies. so maybe not as rare as you make out? i could be wrong though?

Mo


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *But if you asked a pug breeder they often say, its down to the health tests this breed needs.*


To be fair Janice, I have seen some pugs around here that don't seem too bad, so if they are careful on the type that are bred from, there is a chance to get them back to healthy happy dogs


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## RachyBobs (Oct 18, 2009)

sequeena said:


> Can I ask how you got the breed back if they died? Probably a daft question...


they got them back by putting the last remaining stud dog to a deerhound and so on and so on.. took ages but the wolfhound you see now has took years to get back to the original breed standard.



moboyd said:


> google Irish wolfhounds for sale, and there are tonns of them on the listed sites, obviously I cannot give the links but they are there, many many puppies. so maybe not as rare as you make out? i could be wrong though?
> 
> Mo


yes there maybe many puppies but the majority are not reg because they are line bred, back to back breeding, or a cross breed wolfhound that they fob of as a wolfhound because there are no papers, also ALOT of scams for wolfhound puppies........ thats why people come to the reptuble breeders. They are a rare breed, they are very difficult dogs to breed and it takes weeks of sleepless nights to bring up a healthy litter

oh and just to add people who have a unreg litter dont health test, hence most wolfhounds dont make it past 6-7 years old because they die of inherited conditions such as livershunt, cancer etc


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *But if you asked a pug breeder they often say, its down to the health tests this breed needs.*


Yes they might well do - and health tests are a big issue in alot of breeds but so is the standard dogs are ment to be able to breath, walk ect with out problems..for 'some' show breeders looks are far more important than health..some breeders purposly breed these short noses..and until judges are forced to judge a good quality dog all round then things wont change!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rona said:


> To be fair Janice, I have seen some pugs around here that don't seem too bad, so if they are careful on the type that are bred from, there is a chance to get them back to healthy happy dogs


*Rona i only used pugs in reply to the other persons post.*


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## RachyBobs (Oct 18, 2009)

im away off into a paddy now coz i havent been in the mood tonight anyway so sorry if i wammed u all


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Ah thanks rachy. Just googled deerhounds, wow!!!


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## RachyBobs (Oct 18, 2009)

sequeena said:


> Ah thanks rachy. Just googled deerhounds, wow!!!


i just consulted my book it was done by collecting what he (the man who revived them) considered to be the last specimens of the breed and breeding them with Deerhounds, Great Danes, and a Borzoi and Tibetan Mastiff in order to regain the size and type of the original hound :thumbup:


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

RachyBobs said:


> i just consulted my book it was done by collecting what he (the man who revived them) considered to be the last specimens of the breed and breeding them with Deerhounds, Great Danes, and a Borzoi and Tibetan Mastiff in order to regain the size and type of the original hound :thumbup:


Blooming hell  I can only imagine the first litters of each of those dogs lmao!


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

RachyBobs said:


> they got them back by putting the last remaining stud dog to a deerhound and so on and so on.. took ages but the wolfhound you see now has took years to get back to the original breed standard.
> 
> yes there maybe many puppies but the majority are not reg because they are line bred, back to back breeding, or a cross breed wolfhound that they fob of as a wolfhound because there are no papers, also ALOT of scams for wolfhound puppies........ thats why people come to the reptuble breeders. They are a rare breed, they are very difficult dogs to breed and it takes weeks of sleepless nights to bring up a healthy litter
> 
> oh and just to add people who have a unreg litter dont health test, hence most wolfhounds dont make it past 6-7 years old because they die of inherited conditions such as livershunt, cancer etc


on this forums sister site there are two Irish wolfhounds for sale, apparently one of the parents got 5th at Crufts this year? there is also an adult up for rehoming?"*He needs a new family home as due to a new baby I don't have the time for him anymore - to stay local in wiltshire. Has lived outside due to size. Very good temperment and well behaved. Kc reg - has been Neutered*.

another site on the list,
irish wolfhound puppies available now 4 left all male *kc registered livershunt tested *and vaccinated. mother and grandfather can be seen. all big boned type. 
Price: £750

and blooming heck,
Ouality Pedigree puppies for sale 4 Girls and 3 Boys red/ grey brindle Lovely temperament ideal family pet. Wormed *shunt tested K.C Registered*. These dogs will be sold subject to vetting to assure they go to appropriate homes. These puppies will also be sold to UK residents only

" so I think that is not bad as far as searching took less than 5 mins to find these, considering they are rare?

Mo


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *Rona i only used pugs in reply to the other persons post.*


Oh.
It is very difficult, when someone comes on here to ask advice on one of the breeds that most of us know have various health issues within the breed. What do you do insult their choice of dog and tell them they should have chosen a different breed?
It's another of those hard situations that you can only offer the advice requested plus maybe a little more.
Nobody should however insult someones pet/breeding dog.
If things like that need to be discuss to highlight the problems with the breeds, a separate thread should be started, much like this one 
We have been asked not to brow beat people on their personal choices in this section, but there is no forum rule saying we cannot discuss several of these topics in a separate thread


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

God im Dizzy now :eek6:

Good thread though :thumbup: even though i thought it not at the begining


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rona said:


> Oh.
> It is very difficult, when someone comes on here to ask advice on one of the breeds that most of us know have various health issues within the breed. What do you do insult their choice of dog and tell them they should have chosen a different breed?
> It's another of those hard situations that you can only offer the advice requested plus maybe a little more.
> Nobody should however insult someones pet/breeding dog.
> ...


*I don't find it difficult to reply to threads i know nothing about.I do however give repect to breeders on here for their chosen breed.Its a simple choice for me.*


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

moboyd said:


> on this forums sister site there are two Irish wolfhounds for sale, apparently one of the parents got 5th at Crufts this year? there is also an adult up for rehoming?"*He needs a new family home as due to a new baby I don't have the time for him anymore - to stay local in wiltshire. Has lived outside due to size. Very good temperment and well behaved. Kc reg - has been Neutered*.
> 
> another site on the list,
> irish wolfhound puppies available now 4 left all male *kc registered livershunt tested *and vaccinated. mother and grandfather can be seen. all big boned type.
> ...


not that rare my friend breeds them and has many champions.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Bearpaw said:


> *But surely this section in this forum is for one and all,not just pedigree,health tested dogs?* some people choose not to have pedigree dogs,that is personal choice.There are forums specific to every breed of dog that are usually full of members with health tested pedigree dogs.This is a petforum,and covers all pets,including crossbreeds and non tested,that means everyone should be welcom to join and ask for help.
> Being informative is great, being helpful is great,being condescending and rude about other people choices isnt.in my opinion.


No.

However it does state:* Dog Breeding* discuss all topics related to responsible dog breeding.

I have no problems at all with anyone breeding their dog(s) but only if it totally responsible and ethical. I will not support any other. They are just to many poor dogs bred from less responsible people and dogs like these are dying constantly, daily all over the world........yes even 1000's in Britain.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

dexter said:


> not that rare my friend breeds them and has many champions.


We have some over here......and we have a breeder  on this tiny weeny Island! Which i only found out the other day!

They are also ''good'' breeders and compete in shows. They were at Crufts this year.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Acacia86 said:


> No.
> 
> However it does state:* Dog Breeding* discuss all topics related to responsible dog breeding.
> 
> I have no problems at all with anyone breeding their dog(s) but only if it totally responsible and ethical. I will not support any other. They are just to many poor dogs bred from less responsible people and dogs like these are dying constantly, daily all over the world........yes even 1000's in Britain.


*With respect, what one peson see's as responcible another may not.For example, i might not go alomg with the health testing issue, but i 100% disagree with anyone breeding any animal they know have health problems.ie. breathing. and thats just a start.*


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *With respect, what one peson see's as responcible another may not.For example, i might not go alomg with the health testing issue, but i 100% disagree with anyone breeding any animal they know have health problems.ie. breathing. and thats just a start.*


I also agree. However some responsibilty should be agreed most people. Like homes for pups, happy, healthy, no temprement issues, knowledge about most things to do with mating/pregnancy/whelping/weaning/socialising puppies etc etc etc

While i completely agree with you disliking the poor breeds that do suffer breathing problems and roach back/eye issues etc, breeding out this fault needs all the good breeders backing and some just prefer the 'image' of the distorted :frown:


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *With respect, what one peson see's as responcible another may not.For example, i might not go alomg with the health testing issue, but i 100% disagree with anyone breeding any animal they know have health problems.ie. breathing. and thats just a start.*


so as far as your concerned its only the health problems that you can see with your own eyes warrent not breeding from?

Mo


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

borderer said:


> crossbreeding is irresponsible all dogs are crossbreeds


True! very true!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *With respect, what one peson see's as responcible another may not.For example, i might not go alomg with the health testing issue, but i 100% disagree with anyone breeding any animal they know have health problems.ie. breathing. and thats just a start.*


well janice, whatever ur opinion is... the boards article mentions health testing as part of responsible breeding ....

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/9237-thinking-about-breeding-your-bitch.html


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *With respect, what one peson see's as responcible another may not.For example, i might not go alomg with the health testing issue, but i 100% disagree with anyone breeding any animal they know have health problems.ie. breathing. and thats just a start.*





moboyd said:


> so as far as your concerned its only the health problems that you can see with your own eyes warrent not breeding from?
> 
> Mo


I must admit to being a little confused about your stance on this issue Jan, you do seem to be contradicting yourself


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Is it just me or is this thread starting to go around in circles. I think its always something we are going to disagree on


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

Tanya1989 said:


> Is it just me or is this thread starting to go around in circles. I think its always something we are going to disagree on


They always do in the end if we don't get some new input 
Be dead soon


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

I would love to hear the reasons why people will not or do not H/T their breeding dogs?

I am well aware that some people had no idea about health tests. I am also well aware that some breeders didn't know about them and so the puppy buyer didn't and therefore didn't think to H/T.

But i would love to know the reasons from those who did know but *chose* not too.........

I think it would be very interesting to hear their stance on it.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

rona said:


> I must admit to being a little confused about your stance on this issue Jan, you do seem to be contradicting yourself


This is what I have noticed a lot in this thread, and as I said very early in it, I asked for Jan to make up her mind, I just dont see why Jan is arguing against testing, when in some of her post states she is against breeding from unhealthy dogs?????

Mo


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> Is it just me or is this thread starting to go around in circles. I think its always something we are going to disagree on


Yep wasting ink.


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

Acacia86 said:


> I would love to hear the reasons why people will not or do not H/T their breeding dogs?
> 
> I am well aware that some people had no idea about health tests. I am also well aware that some breeders didn't know about them and so the puppy buyer didn't and therefore didn't think to H/T.
> 
> ...


I'd be amazed if you got many replies to this, apart from Bordie.
I think they would fear the possible backlash from some forum members


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

Janice you wouldnt breed from a dog that couldnt breath, but you would breed from a dog that had a genetical eye problem, that had heart issues ect! you say you would breed from non health tested dogs, but wouldnt breed from a dog that was seen to be suffering..whats the different just because you cant see the suffering doesnt mean that the dog is in perfect condition nor does it mean that later down the line a problem will not occure due to lack of testing.

Many many diseases can be passed from parents to pups, and there are tests for mosts..
breeding from a dog that cant breath is one thing but possibly effecting a whole litter of say 10 puppies with something because tests have not taken place is just as bad, and will wreck the lives of more dogs than just the parent ... if you see that or not!


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

I think for some breeders whov been breeding for years not health testing it will be a case of i dont need to as my lines have never shown any illnesses/conditions which can now be tested for and with some breeders it will be a case sorry to say it but where they dont want to spend out the money

we had charlei girls (mini schnauzer) eyes tested just before she was a year old as we want to check her yearly and then before any mateings and the test was 46.00 how cheap is this for reassurance all is fine


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

rona said:


> I'd be amazed if you got many replies to this, apart from Bordie.
> I think they would fear the possible backlash from some forum members


I thought that would be the main reason :frown: i know some people are all for H/T.... me included. However, it would be interesting to know why some people do chose not too. Its a shame that one simple question could turn out like that.

On an ''average'' thread it would be more unstandable but on here i would hope it would be a bit different.

Simply because this has turned out to be a healthy sort of ''talk'' rather than a slanging match and i know its not my thread but i still feel quite proud of that!!!! (i have followed it all the way through, even though i only commented at the start and today!)


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

mitch4 said:


> * with some breeders it will be a case sorry to say it but where they dont want to spend out the moneyI think for some breeders whov been breeding for years not health testing it will be a case of i dont need to as my lines have never shown any illnesses/conditions which can now be tested for and*
> 
> we had charlei girls (mini schnauzer) eyes tested just before she was a year old as we want to check her yearly and then before any mateings and the test was 46.00 how cheap is this for reassurance all is fine


I know a breeder that like (not breeding now).....however when i asked her if she kept in contact with ALL her puppies the whole time she answered ''of course i didn't that would be impossible''

I asked: ''So how do you know for sure if none had problems?''

Her reply: ''I don't. But i am sure they would have contacted me''

Quite possible. But a few people on here and a fair few i have spoke to over here, said they wouldn't have contacted the breeder if the dog started with problems and they had not spoke to the breeder for a long time..............


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

What are the costs of the most commonly used tests?


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> I know a breeder that like (not breeding now).....however when i asked her if she kept in contact with ALL her puppies the whole time she answered ''of course i didn't that would be impossible''
> 
> I asked: ''So how do you know for sure if none had problems?''
> 
> ...


exactly spot on they wont keep contact with all pups and when a dog develops an eye problem lets say 5 years down the line the owner will not get in touch with the breeder will think its just developed but in fact the problem would have been developing from birth more than likely, iv heard of whole litters of mini schnauzers being born blind and being pts at 7 weeks old as you cant fully say if the pup is blind till 6/7 weeks of age. How devestateing is this. Id pay any money to be able to avoid this, if i couldnt afford to do this id not breed with this particular breed


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

Acacia86 said:


> I thought that would be the main reason :frown: i know some people are all for H/T.... me included. However, it would be interesting to know why some people do chose not too. Its a shame that one simple question could turn out like that.
> 
> On an ''average'' thread it would be more unstandable but on here i would hope it would be a bit different.
> 
> Simply because this has turned out to be a healthy sort of ''talk'' rather than a slanging match and i know its not my thread but i still feel quite proud of that!!!! (i have followed it all the way through, even though i only commented at the start and today!)


I'm not criticizing you 
Just think it's the way it is 
I'd be really pleased if a few would answer your question


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

rona said:


> What are the costs of the most commonly used tests?


not sure Rona they all varie, and depends where you go! eyes i would say are most common.

and this is what our dogs are tested for and what we pay.

we have the yearly routine (PRA) test done which costs us £25 as we go to clinic that tests over 25dogs so price is cheaper..If there isnt a clinic when we need a test its £40

then we have PLL at £45, Gluacoma at £45 and optigene at £100 although its just gone up to £140..These are all life time checks...**on top of that you have the blood tests**


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

crazy said:


> not sure Rona they all varie, and depends where you go! eyes i would say are most common.
> 
> and this is what our dogs are tested for and what we pay.
> 
> ...


So, for the price charged for one puppy or a little more, you can try and ensure that all the puppies are as healthy as possible?
What does this entail for the bitch?
I have a feeling that this could be one of the reasons that some don't do it, the fear of putting there beloved pet through tests


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

rona said:


> I'd be amazed if you got many replies to this, apart from Bordie.
> I think they would fear the possible backlash from some forum members


rona I dont think many will respond to this question either, because how I see it there is NO valid reason not to H/T.

mo


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Eye test for H/C is some drops in the eyes, non painful, and go in a dark room for five minutes, 

Hips, sedation, hips xrayed, wide awake 10 mins after having it done, no pain afterwards.

I had CHD dna test done (not required in the UK but wanted the clearance), swab on side of mouth no effect to the dog.

long coat gene test, same again swab in mouth.

Mo


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

moboyd said:


> rona I dont think many will respond to this question either, because how I see it there is NO valid reason not to H/T.
> 
> mo


No, you don't, but there must be some who believe they do have a valid reason, otherwise they would do it.

It can't all be down to money!!!!!


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

rona said:


> So, for the price charged for one puppy or a little more, you can try and ensure that all the puppies are as healthy as possible?
> What does this entail for the bitch?
> *I have a feeling that this could be one of the reasons that some don't do it, the fear of putting there beloved pet through tests*


Maybe so.

But yet they will put their beloved pet through pregnancy/whelping/raising a litter all which is worse and a darn site more painful (H/T are not) and draining for the bitch in comparsion to a health test  :frown: :frown:

Or a stud dog is the same. He can to get seriously injured during the mating or after :frown:


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

rona said:


> So, for the price charged for one puppy or a little more, you can try and ensure that all the puppies are as healthy as possible?
> What does this entail for the bitch?
> I have a feeling that this could be one of the reasons that some don't do it, the fear of putting there beloved pet through tests


considering that pregnancy and giving birth can be life threatening to bitch and pups the fear of putting ur dog through testing would be hypocritical really


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

i think the worse it gets in an anesthetic for x/rays blood tests the dogs dont like but not too traumatic and the eye tests are not bad for the dogs at all


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

rona said:


> So, for the price charged for one puppy or a little more, you can try and ensure that all the puppies are as healthy as possible?
> What does this entail for the bitch?
> I have a feeling that this could be one of the reasons that some don't do it, the fear of putting there beloved pet through tests


Optigene is done through blood tests
PLL is done from cheek swabs
Gluacoma is done by simply putting liuqid in the eye then 20mins later having a look through a light.
the pra yearly test is done simply by looking through a light.

not a lot of bother considering what could happen if the pups turned out to be effected i imagine Gluacoma and the rest would be very painful for the dogs!


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

Acacia86 said:


> Maybe so.
> 
> But yet they will put their beloved pet through pregnancy/whelping/raising a litter all which is worse and a darn site more painful (H/T are not) and draining for the bitch in comparsion to a health test  :frown: :frown:
> 
> Or a stud dog is the same. He can to get seriously injured during the mating or after :frown:


I'm just trying to see this from the other side here and maybe put forward ideas of why this happens.
Could it be that they feel that the whole birth process is natural unlike the tests?
Come on someone, not all of you reading this will agree with health testing.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

i guess one of the main reasons would be to get told that the dog failed its health test ... so rather breed blind than conscious about existing problems


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Natik said:


> i guess one of the main reasons would be to get told that the dog failed its health test ... so rather breed blind than conscious about existing problems


This is what I said earlier, as being a strong possibility. head in the sand syndrome.

Mo


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I thought this was interesting as to why breeders don't test or release the results By Sierra Milton.

It's really long sorry


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

I think that it has to be soley down to the money in this day and age of so much information on the relevant tests required or as someone else mentioned there is a known problem that a person doesnt want common knowledge so it doesnt affect thier reputation or ability to carry on breeding


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

Natik said:


> i guess one of the main reasons would be to get told that the dog failed its health test ... so rather breed blind than conscious about existing problems


Think so ....(she says quietly after just catching up!)


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> I thought this was interesting as to why breeders don't test or release the results By Sierra Milton.
> 
> It's really long sorry


That is an excellent piece :thumbup:


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> I thought this was interesting as to why breeders don't test or release the results By Sierra Milton.
> 
> It's really long sorry


thanks for the link, I had read this before and never saved it, some very good information, I hope everyone that has posted in this thread take the time out to read it.

mo


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> I thought this was interesting as to why breeders don't test or release the results By Sierra Milton.
> 
> It's really long sorry


some good information there.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

No problem I found it last night someone on here is getting an ebt from that kennel and I was having a look aronud and thought it was good


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

Natik said:


> i guess one of the main reasons would be to get told that the dog failed its health test ... so rather breed blind than conscious about existing problems


Yup. Some like to keep heads deep down in the sand. From the "Cavalier Health" site.

Cavalier King Charles Spaniels TO SCAN OR NOT TO SCAN?.

TO SCAN OR NOT TO SCAN?

_. . . "Repairing the fault in cavaliers is going to be the biggest problem, especially as Dr's Rusbridge and Skerritt do not agree on the way forward, how are we breeders (electricians, groomers, printers, drivers, nurses etc) supposed to know the way forward. We all have our differing ideas. Clear scanned dogs have produced affected offspring, dogs scanned clear have shown symptoms, SM scanned dogs have lived asymptomatic lives pain free, all very confusing and contradictory. I feel genetics markers are the ONLY way forward.

Without going into too much detail about my thoughts,* the above are some of the reasons we have not scanned to date.*

Things could be about to change, recent moves involving the Animal Health Trust, Cavalier Clubs and the Kennel Club are working towards scientific/genetic evaluation of information to produce Estimated Breeding Value's. EBV's have already proved successful in livestock, this is showing me "the science" I will begin to scan and forward my dogs information, inclusive of heart and eye certificates, to Sarah Blott as I see this as a step forward, although I'm still not convinced that scanning is by any means the sole answer to SM but merely a starting point."​_


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> I thought this was interesting as to why breeders don't test or release the results By Sierra Milton.
> 
> It's really long sorry


have just read it and its very good :thumbup:


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I am not contradicting myself but i'll put it like this.If i know a dog is going to have a life of having problems breathing (for an example) i think it is cruel to carry on breeding such animals just because they look nice in some peoples eyes.But if i had 2 healthy dogs and they MIGHT have pups with a problem to me its totaly different.*


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *I am not contradicting myself but i'll put it like this.If i know a dog is going to have a life of having problems breathing (for an example) i think it is cruel to carry on breeding such animals just because they look nice in some peoples eyes.But if i had 2 healthy dogs and they MIGHT have pups with a problem to me its totaly different.*


I get that Jan, but if you could help rule out the might.
Why not do it?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rona said:


> I get that Jan, but if you could help rule out the might.
> Why not do it?


*Because its my choice..As much as some people can't or don't want to agree with me ( which doesn't bother me), why are'nt those very same people telling those that KNOW their breed is not "normal" to stop breeding them?*


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *Because its my choice..As much as some people can't or don't want to agree with me ( which doesn't bother me), why are'nt those very same people telling those that KNOW their breed is not "normal" to stop breeding them?*


Because that is insulting the individual dog and that is a step too far.
like I said yesterday, that subject could be discussed on a separate thread, but you can't go telling people that there beloved dog is not "normal", as you put it


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rona said:


> Because that is insulting the individual dog and that is a step too far.
> like I said yesterday, that subject could be discussed on a separate thread, but you can't go telling people that there beloved dog is not "normal", as you put it


*I put it as polite as i could and didn't mean it in a nasty way.But it seems like i can't have my oppion either way.*


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *I put it as polite as i could and didn't mean it in a nasty way.But it seems like i can't have my oppion either way.*


I don't understand this Jan, have I upset you somehow?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rona said:


> I don't understand this Jan, have I upset you somehow?


*No Rona you haven't upset me, my remark wasn't aimed at anyone in particular.I just feel sometimes on here if you don't go with the flow all hell breaks loose.I respect others don't think like me but i don't get out of my pram about it.*


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *No Rona you haven't upset me, my remark wasn't aimed at anyone in particular.I just feel sometimes on here if you don't go with the flow all hell breaks loose.I respect others don't think like me but i don't get out of my pram about it.*


I'm absolutely sure that there are other people on this forum that agree with you, at least in part, but they are not as mature as us Jan and could get hurt by comments.
It's such an emotive subject, that some take too far.
There are ways (as you know) of putting a point across strongly, without having to resort to insults


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## alaun (Jul 21, 2009)

dexter said:


> not that rare my friend breeds them and has many champions.


Yep with you there Dexter. Definitely not a rare breed. Most of my friends breed them. You don't see them advertised but that's because they don't need to. Word of mouth will lead you to many top quality litters available at any time of the year. You won't see any of these written down any where.

Even my R&W setters aren't on the rare list, they are vulnerable but not rare.

Any way - it's completely off topic.  

Excellent thread Rona. Still not sure how we go about giving correct and helpful information to newcomers. I think the best source of advice for many would be their breed clubs, perhaps we just suggest they give them a ring. They would be able to give them breed specific advice re health testing, suitable studs and even someone willing to mentor.


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2010)

alaun said:


> Yep with you there Dexter. Definitely not a rare breed. Most of my friends breed them. You don't see them advertised but that's because they don't need to. Word of mouth will lead you to many top quality litters available at any time of the year. You won't see any of these written down any where.
> 
> Even my R&W setters aren't on the rare list, they are vulnerable but not rare.
> 
> ...


That's a good suggestion, but I have come across several breed clubs in my search for answers in my time on this forum,that to be honest, leave a lot to be desired on there dedication to the welfare of their breed.
Some seem to think that show titles is the pinnacle of success, and not the health of their dogs


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

rona said:


> Some seem to think that show titles is the pinnacle of success, and not the health of their dogs


This is the biggest problem in the show scene. Champions can command higher prices for their puppies, and have waiting lists for them - with no thought to the health tests in some cases.


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## alaun (Jul 21, 2009)

rona said:


> That's a good suggestion, but I have come across several breed clubs in my search for answers in my time on this forum,that to be honest, leave a lot to be desired on there dedication to the welfare of their breed.
> Some seem to think that show titles is the pinnacle of success, and not the health of their dogs


That's a fair point, and also it wouldn't help non-pedigree breeders. Help should be available to all who need it.


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

this is what i always rant about:

"_Now the truly criminal act occurs. These breeders are quite often very successful in the show ring; their dogs are thought to be the best  after all, they have ribbons and placings and titles to prove how worthy their dogs are! Because of their show ring success, they are seen as breed authorities, people that newcomers to the breed trust for knowledge and information. And the information these newcomers get is that there are no genetic problems to be concerned with, no need to do that expensive testing when the dogs are all healthy. Even more disastrous to the breeds future is that these breeders attitudes begin to prevail. The newcomers see the success of these breeders dogs and buy them (even though few, if any, have had even the most rudimentary testing for structural faults, poor health or defective genes). The newcomers then have a financial and emotional investment to protect which begins to spread this attitude, with predictable results. Soon, because these breeders are the powers within the breed (quite often judges, people selected to discuss the breed at seminars, breeders who command respective prices for puppies and stud fees, breeders seen winning), they use this power to ensure that it becomes unethical to discuss any defects, in either health or temperament, found in any of the pedigrees of their sires, dams or progeny of their sires or dams. All too often one hears I dont dare say anything if I want to win or there are three lines with epilepsy (or heart or eye or pick a health problem), but you dont need to know about them_.
By Sierra Milton

i don;t know who the author of this piece is but it seems that her/his experience is way to similar to mine...and that was over 20 years ago...unfortunately these practices are still going strong in the show world nowadays...with all the consequences for breeding...(i could write a book-long post...but i guess we all know what's going on...)

that's precisely the reason i got out of pure breed breeding...
happy as i a can i can be with types rather than breeds - thought i really don;t appreciate the slagging off of purist breeders and fanciers that "dare" criticising my choice while they walk around with poorly bred dogs but that "have proved themselves in the show-ring with many champions in their pedigrees...

i feel i am playing the odds right, testing for what's necessary and working with my own conscience clear i can honestly say that i am extremely proud of my "little" doggies!

i find it easy and rewarding....i don't go to show (for obvious reasons)...but i can proudly boast that i have healthy and happy dogs bred for health and temperament and fit as fiddles!



best
D


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

alaun said:


> I think the best source of advice for many would be their breed clubs, perhaps we just suggest they give them a ring. They would be able to give them breed specific advice re health testing, suitable studs and even someone willing to mentor.


i don;t really agree with this point as unless the illness are blatantly obvious and on public domain to the point that cannot be ignored...then the breed clubs make a move in trying to debate to rectify that...
it is a story told and re-told many times you can check by yourself by simply googleing the breeds and the matching the ailments with the initiatives of the clubs...
to a prospective buyer that looks like a responsible think to do....to a seasoned researcher that looks like closing the stables after the horses have bolted out...i.e. weak repair measures: too little too late!
unfortunately the mindset of breeders is culpable for that...and unless is found a way to change that perverse mechanism...we'll be debating the same issues in 20 year time...as it was 20 years ago!...



best
D


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Ok firstly you will have to excuse my ignorance on breeding and health testing all i know is what i have learned through the forum over time, so can you ell me why dogs will always need to be health tested before breeding, you have a bitch mate with a dog that comes from a long line of health tested parents, i thought that was to breed the defects out of that particular breed, well i cant understand because that cant be true else the defects would have been bred out of them so why the need to carry on h.t with these dogs from the right parentage. Sorry if the reply is obvious or its a daft question, i did say i knew very little.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

dimkaz said:


> this is what i always rant about:
> 
> "_Now the truly criminal act occurs. These breeders are quite often very successful in the show ring; their dogs are thought to be the best - after all, they have ribbons and placings and titles to prove how worthy their dogs are! Because of their show ring success, they are seen as breed authorities, people that newcomers to the breed trust for knowledge and information. And the information these newcomers get is that there are no genetic problems to be concerned with, no need to do that "expensive testing when the dogs are all healthy." Even more disastrous to the breed's future is that these breeders' attitudes begin to prevail. The newcomers see the success of these breeders' dogs and buy them (even though few, if any, have had even the most rudimentary testing for structural faults, poor health or defective genes). The newcomers then have a financial and emotional investment to protect which begins to spread this attitude, with predictable results. Soon, because these breeders are the "powers" within the breed (quite often judges, people selected to discuss the breed at seminars, breeders who command respective prices for puppies and stud fees, breeders seen winning), they use this "power" to ensure that it becomes unethical to discuss any defects, in either health or temperament, found in any of the pedigrees of their sires, dams or progeny of their sires or dams. All too often one hears "I don't dare say anything if I want to win" or "there are three lines with epilepsy (or heart or eye or pick a health problem), but you don't need to know about them_."
> By Sierra Milton
> ...


If you felt so strongly about the subject so many years ago why get out of breeding your show dogs, rather than making a stand at the time? and try to make a difference to the breed you were involved in? I dont get the impression you are the shrinking violet type lol that could be pressured by your peers? because you are doing something now breeding cross breeds I think I am right in saying, that many frown upon, and I would imagine you get more backlsh for doing that, then what you would have done standing up for breeding healthy show dogs? this is not having a go at you, but if people get out of the showing/breeding of a chosen breed because they disagree the undesireable breeding ethics of those at the "top" then it drastically reduces the ethical show/breeders. I for one know there are people I totally disagree with, in regards to their breeding practices, and they know my feelings on the matter, BUT I continued to breed my chosen breed ethically despite them. they wont run me out, I also have many many friends that are like minded and also breed ethically, I chose to hang about with like minded people.

Mo


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> Ok firstly you will have to excuse my ignorance on breeding and health testing all i know is what i have learned through the forum over time, so can you ell me why dogs will always need to be health tested before breeding, you have a bitch mate with a dog that comes from a long line of health tested parents, i thought that was to breed the defects out of that particular breed, well i cant understand because that cant be true else the defects would have been bred out of them so why the need to carry on h.t with these dogs from the right parentage. Sorry if the reply is obvious or its a daft question, i did say i knew very little.


I've started a new thread, with just this question in mind


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## Pug_D (Feb 21, 2010)

I find breed clubs, or mine useless.

I have contacted them 3 times now with no reply.

They only seem to want you if you are 'up there' with them and chummy with a certain group.

Thats my experience at aleast.

I'm a member of my breed welfare club, I'd rather be a member of that then my actual breed club ten times over, they actually care about the breed, not just ribbons.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> Ok firstly you will have to excuse my ignorance on breeding and health testing all i know is what i have learned through the forum over time, so can you ell me why dogs will always need to be health tested before breeding, you have a bitch mate with a dog that comes from a long line of health tested parents, i thought that was to breed the defects out of that particular breed, well i cant understand because that cant be true else the defects would have been bred out of them so why the need to carry on h.t with these dogs from the right parentage. Sorry if the reply is obvious or its a daft question, i did say i knew very little.


*Basicly no test is 100%.*


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2010)

Pug_D said:


> I find breed clubs, or mine useless.
> 
> I have contacted them 3 times now with no reply.
> 
> ...


I must admit, I wasn't impressed with what I saw on the website


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> Ok firstly you will have to excuse my ignorance on breeding and health testing all i know is what i have learned through the forum over time, so can you ell me why dogs will always need to be health tested before breeding, you have a bitch mate with a dog that comes from a long line of health tested parents, i thought that was to breed the defects out of that particular breed, well i cant understand because that cant be true else the defects would have been bred out of them so why the need to carry on h.t with these dogs from the right parentage. Sorry if the reply is obvious or its a daft question, i did say i knew very little.


the simple answer is that recessive disorders do show up in later generation...they might skip one or tow or more generations and if not totally clear, reappear and spread again.

on a more detailed account: most illness depend from multiple gene loci "defects" whose interplay is unknown and the effects can be detected only indirectly, hence just by skipping one pair from testing the "mess" begins again and the process to eradicate it will have to start again by testing all breeding stock and publish the results.

if not all results - good and bad - are published...what seems to be an improvement in the breed, it's only a false outlook - see the UK KC statistics - that while showing that there is an improvement in all breed for HD....in reality is because only good X-rays are sent for assessment and publication.... i have linked this report in another thread some time ago, if you wish to have a more in depth understanding of the situation (uploaded here).
hopefully is the correct report!
have fun reading it (by the way....the KC was also one of the funder of this research...however i cannot find any trace of this in their website)
that itself is saying something...

best
D


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

dimkaz said:


> the simple answer is that recessive disorders do show up in later generation...they might skip one or tow or more generations and if not totally clear, reappear and spread again.
> 
> on a more detailed account: most illness depend from multiple gene loci "defects" whose interplay is unknown and the effects can be detected only indirectly, hence just by skipping one pair from testing the "mess" begins again and the process to eradicate it will have to start again by testing all breeding stock and publish the results.
> 
> ...


Ok thankyou, ide often wondered why it hadnt stopped somewhere. Another question that has been raised on here why when you have a breed like the bulldog which as quite a few problems i understand do they h.t and if the results are of a good standard they go ahead and breed but all the time knowing it will still have breathing probs, when if another breed was at risk from an inherited heart/breathing probls and didnt come back clear they would be advised not to breed or get a slating on here for doing so. Enlighted me please


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Basicly no test is 100%.


Not true - DNA testing is.

Other health tests while not 100% foolproof do both decrease the risks and DO, if you look at them, show a reduction of risk. To ignore doing something because it is not 100% foolproof is IMO irresponsible, when there is plenty of evidence that it reduces risk. Until such time as DNA tests become available for all problems (and they are being developed, but some problems like HD are incredibly complex) then they are the best tests we have available at this time and IMO irresponsible to ignore them.


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## Pug_D (Feb 21, 2010)

rona said:


> I must admit, I wasn't impressed with what I saw on the website


No, I always feel a bit ruffled when people ask 'are you a member of your breed club' because IMO its not worth being a member, it may look good on paper to join but I feel theres much better ways of supporting your breed.


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

moboyd said:


> If you felt so strongly about the subject so many years ago why get out of breeding your show dogs, rather than making a stand at the time? and try to make a difference to the breed you were involved in? I dont get the impression you are the shrinking violet type lol that could be pressured by your peers? because you are doing something now breeding cross breeds I think I am right in saying, that many frown upon, and I would imagine you get more backlsh for doing that, then what you would have done standing up for breeding healthy show dogs? this is not having a go at you, but if people get out of the showing/breeding of a chosen breed because they disagree the undesireable breeding ethics of those at the "top" then it drastically reduces the ethical show/breeders. I for one know there are people I totally disagree with, in regards to their breeding practices, and they know my feelings on the matter, BUT I continued to breed my chosen breed ethically despite them. they wont run me out, I also have many many friends that are like minded and also breed ethically, I chose to hang about with like minded people.
> 
> Mo


because i was involved with the dogs with my dad, not really interested in showing, and was about to get off to university (850km away from home), i wasn;t allowed to own dogs (by finance restrictions - i had to take several jobs - and apartment life), and my dad was getting a bit tired of bring the sole carer and interfered with his day to day job...we never sold one of our dogs' offspring... and continue to do that against the dobies "mafia" wasn;t really on. now i have the means and some time....and don;t want those aggravations....i can easily say that notwithstanding the frown i get for breeding types rather than purebreeds i can honestly say that my dogs are my pride and joy! and the people who got one of my little devils are very happy with me and the dogs as their health is great and their temperament second to none!
i'm in for the satisfaction and the passion i have for my dogs not money or gratification on the show ring!

i understand what you are saying about getting back in the pure-breed breeding....but i need to work so many hours that it would make it impossible for me to work, care for the dogs and show...and then my fave breed is not even the caricature of what it was 20 years ago (the Neapolitan mastiffs, not the dobies)...dunno...i guess i might not have answered your question fully...but in fact i do prefer to disassociate myself to that world and continue to be the small time amateur who enjoys his own dogs... i don;t know.

i too have like minded friends who do breed both pure and cross breeds doing it scientifically and with strong ethical principles, great investments on money and time...and well...we don;t sell our pups...so all the money we put into it is not recoverable... the joy we get when we go visit (or they come visiting) or, as in the case of my friends in southern Italy, in France and Switzerland...when we go and see the dogs at work...is our greatest retribution! that's enough to get me going, though my passion for the beasts is such that i really feel the need to promote as much as possible good breeding practice either for pure or cross breeds...it is along journey in which i learn as i go along and, having the fortune of accessing the scientific publications, i also feel that i can pass on some of that information...maybe something that is now only in those journals and systematically overlooked or ignored by the breeders...will become common knowledge...who knows...

or, most probably, i live in the fairy land

best
D


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *I am not contradicting myself but i'll put it like this.If i know a dog is going to have a life of having problems breathing (for an example) i think it is cruel to carry on breeding such animals just because they look nice in some peoples eyes.But if i had 2 healthy dogs and they MIGHT have pups with a problem to me its totaly different.*


but again just because a dog doesnt look to be suffering how do you know its not?
breeding from a dog that has heart issues say (as that can be tested for) is just a cruel as breathing from a dog that doesnt look to breath correctly..
its not just a fact that pups 'might' get a genetical illness its a fact that your dog could be suffering from something that the naked eye can not see, but tests can see!


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> Ok firstly you will have to excuse my ignorance on breeding and health testing all i know is what i have learned through the forum over time, so can you ell me why dogs will always need to be health tested before breeding, you have a bitch mate with a dog that comes from a long line of health tested parents, i thought that was to breed the defects out of that particular breed, well i cant understand because that cant be true else the defects would have been bred out of them so why the need to carry on h.t with these dogs from the right parentage. Sorry if the reply is obvious or its a daft question, i did say i knew very little.


It depends on what test you have done for example lets say we are talking PLL test! If two dogs are tested clear and have a litter, them pups will be clear by defalt..if you then mate one of them pups to a dog that lets say is a carrier, you will have to test them puppies to see if the pups are carries/clear..(they wont be effected).

If you constantly only mated clear to clear there wouldnt be a problem in that line.



JANICE199 said:


> *Basicly no test is 100%.*


That statement is incorrect.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> No, I always feel a bit ruffled when people ask 'are you a member of your breed club' because IMO its not worth being a member, it may look good on paper to join but I feel theres much better ways of supporting your breed.


I can see where you are coming from. The dog world like any other section of society is full of all sorts, and from what little I have come across the showing section can be quite cliquey (I don't show), however, there is also a wealth of knowledge amongst all those people, which IMO, it's worth taking the rubbish to get that experience and knowledge. For me, it's not about something looking good on paper, it's about researching and gaining knowledge so that informed decisions can be made. It's not enough to go to one or two sources as they could have different opinions. Within a breed club you have the largest collection of knowledge available... so inspite of all the downsides.. So, rather than discounting it because of personalities, I'd say use it... even if it means putting up with the occasional bit of **** .


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

crazy said:


> but again just because a dog doesnt look to be suffering how do you know its not?
> breeding from a dog that has heart issues say (as that can be tested for) is just a cruel as breathing from a dog that doesnt look to breath correctly..
> its not just a fact that pups 'might' get a genetical illness its a fact that your dog could be suffering from something that the naked eye can not see, but tests can see!


So why are dogs still bred when they are know to have breathing difficulties when i look at the bull dog all i see it a dog that finds it hard to breath and just lokks to be struggling ime not a bull dog fan although there isnt a dog i dont paricularly like i just wouldnt have a bull dog but i feel so sorry for them.


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> Ok thankyou, ide often wondered why it hadnt stopped somewhere. Another question that has been raised on here why when you have a breed like the bulldog which as quite a few problems i understand do they h.t and if the results are of a good standard they go ahead and breed but all the time knowing it will still have breathing probs, when if another breed was at risk from an inherited heart/breathing probls and didnt come back clear they would be advised not to breed or get a slating on here for doing so. Enlighted me please


HI again. if you read the report i uploaded you'll see that some of the health issues come from conformation (short muzzle and upward/pointy stop, short legs, longer spine etc...) some other from genetic anomalies ... testing for genetic anomalies (and manage appropriately the positive/carriers etc etc) will reduce the incidence of the disease, while conformation issues must be bred out by mating only subject that do not present those exaggerate features...i.e. breed Neos with less skin that get infected and cause cherry eyes problems, shorter daxi so that they don;t get back aches...or less squashed faced/small headed/ taller bulldogs so that they can breath, mate or actually get about freely.. etc...but then they part from the breed standards set by their clubs, consequently they won;t win any show....sure they are healthier, but then they wont make their owners as much money either through stud fees or by selling their champions' litters...

best
D


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2010)

dimkaz said:


> because i was involved with the dogs with my dad, not really interested in showing, and was about to get off to university (850km away from home), i wasn;t allowed to own dogs (by finance restrictions - i had to take several jobs - and apartment life), and my dad was getting a bit tired of bring the sole carer and interfered with his day to day job...we never sold one of our dogs' offspring... and continue to do that against the dobies "mafia" wasn;t really on. now i have the means and some time....and don;t want those aggravations....i can easily say that notwithstanding the frown i get for breeding types rather than purebreeds i can honestly say that my dogs are my pride and joy! and the people who got one of my little devils are very happy with me and the dogs as their health is great and their temperament second to none!
> i'm in for the satisfaction and the passion i have for my dogs not money or gratification on the show ring!
> 
> i understand what you are saying about getting back in the pure-breed breeding....but i need to work so many hours that it would make it impossible for me to work, care for the dogs and show...and then my fave breed is not even the caricature of what it was 20 years ago (the Neapolitan mastiffs, not the dobies)...dunno...i guess i might not have answered your question fully...but in fact i do prefer to disassociate myself to that world and continue to be the small time amateur who enjoys his own dogs... i don;t know.
> ...


Great post, I admire you.
It's a pity that a lot of this passion for a breed as a whole has been lost in the quest for show awards 
I now feel that I have started a thread that is losing me 
I will never have a quarter of the knowledge that many of you seem to have


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> So why are dogs still bred when they are know to have breathing difficulties when i look at the bull dog all i see it a dog that finds it hard to breath and just lokks to be struggling ime not a bull dog fan although there isnt a dog i dont paricularly like i just wouldnt have a bull dog but i feel so sorry for them.


I wouldnt own a bull dog either, even more so when there in this state!
I dont know why there still being bred? maybe ask some one that breeds them..


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> So why are dogs still bred when they are know to have breathing difficulties when i look at the bull dog all i see it a dog that finds it hard to breath and just lokks to be struggling ime not a bull dog fan although there isnt a dog i dont paricularly like i just wouldnt have a bull dog but i feel so sorry for them.


people who breed a dog which obviosly struggles to breath arent much better than those who breed without health testing imo.... and can be put in the same category of a irresponsible breeder.

I havent came across a bulldog which could breath with no problems, but i cant comment if they do exist, so if someone breeds bulldogs and choses dogs to improve the breathing quality then thats obviously a good thing...


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2010)

Pug_D said:


> No, I always feel a bit ruffled when people ask 'are you a member of your breed club' because IMO its not worth being a member, it may look good on paper to join but I feel theres much better ways of supporting your breed.


Yes some breed clubs are like that! we are very lucky we have two breed clubs..They have the breeds welfare and future at heart and thats how they all should be...:thumbup:


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

rona said:


> Great post, I admire you.
> It's a pity that a lot of this passion for a breed as a whole has been lost in the quest for show awards
> I now feel that I have started a thread that is losing me
> I will never have a quarter of the knowledge that many of you seem to have


thanks,

the knowledge is gained bit by bit by getting your hands dirty and question everything you are told with open mind and doing research (not googling the subject and take for good what comes up...) actually going to the universities libraries (or consulting on line archives) and get stuck for hours on end on journal articles that at first are very difficult to understand but then they become more clear as your knowledge increases...sneak in a few lectures on genetics, reproductive medicine, bahavioural and evolutionary sciences...and talk to the lecturers ask them questions non matter how stupid you feel and then go back researching the same way those topics that might have been discussed in the class...
as i said it is a very long process...i have also to say that i am very privileged as my previous education has given me a kick start in quantitative methods (maths and stats => genetics is all statistics and probabilities...a bit like going to the bookmakers..) and i am professionally involved in science and technology for the last .....it looks like it's forever...but is doable as the main principles are very simple and the logic behind them boils down to a few dos and donts.....that it's heartbreaking seeing them systematically ignored in the dogs world...while effectively applied in farming and conservations...



best
D


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## poppydog1 (Mar 26, 2010)

How can the breeds like Bulldogs be improved on ?


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2010)

poppydog1 said:


> How can the breeds like Bulldogs be improved on ?


Breeding from dogs that can breath and dont have such short noses! There will be some out there, mainly in pet homes as its not what they want in the ring..Judges need to start placing them that can breath and have slightly longer noses from the rest..and breed clubs needs to work together to put a plan in order..its not something that will not be done over night, may take 10years..but im sure it can be done with the right people doing it.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

dimkaz said:


> HI again. if you read the report i uploaded you'll see that some of the health issues come from conformation (short muzzle and upward/pointy stop, short legs, longer spine etc...) some other from genetic anomalies ... testing for genetic anomalies (and manage appropriately the positive/carriers etc etc) will reduce the incidence of the disease, while conformation issues must be bred out by mating only subject that do not present those exaggerate features...i.e. breed Neos with less skin that get infected and cause cherry eyes problems, shorter daxi so that they don;t get back aches...or less squashed faced/small headed/ taller bulldogs so that they can breath, mate or actually get about freely.. etc...but then they part from the breed standards set by their clubs, consequently they won;t win any show....sure they are healthier, but then they wont make their owners as much money either through stud fees or by selling their champions' litters...
> 
> best
> D


as many of the breed standards are now being changed to try and erradicate exaggerations, and the fact that judges are being told in no uncertain terms that they must now place dogs that are more fit for function first, is IMO a great step in the right direction, your top breeders wishing to stay at the top, should hopefully start to make changes? we can only live in hope, what we have to also remember out of the many litters being bred by these "top" breeders, only a few of the pups will actually end up in the ring, even now with all their exaggerations, so monetary wise I cant see how making these small but important changes to conformation will reduce their income?

mo


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Judges need to start placing them that can breath and have slightly longer noses from the rest..and breed clubs needs to work together to put a plan in order..its not something that will be done over night, may take 10years..but im sure it can be done with the right people doing it


.

I agree, it could be done if there was the will to do it. The problem with breeding for looks/breed standard alone, is that it inevitably leads to exaggerations and a 'look' that is currently favourable with the judges at the time. There are steps to improve with the Fit for Function initiatives and it won't happen overnight, but whether they will be enough will remain to be seen  Personally, I think the biggest problems is getting the judges and breeders to realise there is a problem with overexaggeration and until that happens, I can't see much of a change.


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

moboyd said:


> as many of the breed standards are now being changed to try and erradicate exaggerations, and the fact that judges are being told in no uncertain terms that they must now place dogs that are more fit for function first, is IMO a great step in the right direction, your top breeders wishing to stay at the top, should hopefully start to make changes? we can only live in hope, what we have to also remember out of the many litters being bred by these "top" breeders, only a few of the pups will actually end up in the ring, even now with all their exaggerations, so monetary wise I cant see how making these small but important changes to conformation will reduce their income?
> 
> mo


the answer to your question is partly given by the next poster...
in more details, until the new/improved subjects will start winning shows...and get champions in their pedigrees (and this takes ages...) then the old/misconstrued subject will carry out breeding and commanding higher prices/stud fees...so the new/improved dogs' owner have no immediate incentive to risk a short term monetary loss...no matter what is the long term investment they have in the breed... certainly is a step in the right direction, but also not enough to justify the immediate introduction of different breeding practices considering then the fact that it would be an admission of failure of previous breeding ....given that the breeder has produced or offered stud services of a non healthy (in conformation) dog...

gotta go now!

best
D


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by moboyd
> as many of the breed standards are now being changed to try and erradicate exaggerations, and the fact that judges are being told in no uncertain terms that they must now place dogs that are more fit for function first, is IMO a great step in the right direction, your top breeders wishing to stay at the top, should hopefully start to make changes? we can only live in hope, what we have to also remember out of the many litters being bred by these "top" breeders, only a few of the pups will actually end up in the ring, even now with all their exaggerations, so monetary wise I cant see how making these small but important changes to conformation will reduce their income?
> 
> ...


I'm not sure that money is the motivating factor. It may well be in a small number of cases, but the majority of people who show do it for enjoyment rather than finanacial gain. It is the BELIEF that dogs should look this way that is deep rooted rather than the financial implications that looking a certain way would be better. My breed has split into almost two separate breeds - show vs working - and it is a breed that doesn't have health issues because of the the physical exaggerations that have occured over the years. However, it is virtually impossible to convince those lovers of show dogs that they are overdone, too heavy and wouldn't be able to do a days work in the field.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> I'm not sure that money is the motivating factor. It may well be in a small number of cases, but the majority of people who show do it for enjoyment rather than finanacial gain. It is the BELIEF that dogs should look this way that is deep rooted rather than the financial implications that looking a certain way would be better. My breed has split into almost two separate breeds - show vs working - and it is a breed that doesn't have health issues because of the the physical exaggerations that have occured over the years. However, it is virtually impossible to convince those lovers of show dogs that they are overdone, too heavy and wouldn't be able to do a days work in the field.


Thankfully my breed, are pretty natural, and much emphasis is on getting working titles ASWELL as being show dogs, in the UK at one time though the working side played a smaller part, but its now growing, and many are getting working titles on their show dogs. I am of the same opinion as rocco with regards to the majority of people that do it for the enjoyment rather than financial gain, although there will always some breeders that make a "business" out of showing/breeding their dogs.

Mo


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Thankfully my breed, are pretty natural


,

TBH, I think the majority of breeds are. If you look at all the different dog breeds, there are relatively few that are so exaggerated that it causes health problems. I'm not excusing those that have them - I find myself pretty shocked at the state of some breeds, but I think it's important not to forget that there are many natural looking breeds out there. Whilst it highlighted the problem in certain breeds, it did cause a mass hysteria that ALL purebreds had problems when this isn't really the case.


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> I'm not sure that money is the motivating factor. It may well be in a small number of cases, but the majority of people who show do it for enjoyment rather than finanacial gain. It is the BELIEF that dogs should look this way that is deep rooted rather than the financial implications that looking a certain way would be better. My breed has split into almost two separate breeds - show vs working - and it is a breed that doesn't have health issues because of the the physical exaggerations that have occured over the years. However, it is virtually impossible to convince those lovers of show dogs that they are overdone, too heavy and wouldn't be able to do a days work in the field.


well, while monetary incentive might not be felt by all breeders in the same way...
straying from a comformation type that has problems (while in the past has given many champions...) might be felt like an admission of failure ...
you mentioned the almost-split in your breed.... in the good ol' days Neos and corsos where the same breed (Mastino Napoletano, can'e presa, cane corso, mastino/molosso Italiano where the names of the same breed in different regions of the south of Italy...)....now split...with damages to both.

money and reputation are always at the centre of the decisions in what to breed ...etc..
what i am trying to convey is that if you substitute the word "money" with "reputation" or even deeply engrained "belief" my arguments still hold, probably i should have made it better!

best
D


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

moboyd said:


> If you felt so strongly about the subject so many years ago why get out of breeding your show dogs, rather than making a stand at the time? and try to make a difference to the breed you were involved in? I dont get the impression you are the shrinking violet type lol that could be pressured by your peers? because you are doing something now breeding cross breeds I think I am right in saying, that many frown upon, and I would imagine you get more backlsh for doing that, then what you would have done standing up for breeding healthy show dogs? this is not having a go at you, but if people get out of the showing/breeding of a chosen breed because they disagree the undesireable breeding ethics of those at the "top" then it drastically reduces the ethical show/breeders. I for one know there are people I totally disagree with, in regards to their breeding practices, and they know my feelings on the matter, BUT I continued to breed my chosen breed ethically despite them. they wont run me out, I also have many many friends that are like minded and also breed ethically, I chose to hang about with like minded people.
> 
> Mo


Mo, are you aware of what Margaret Carter has gone through since announcing that her overused stud dog had a late onset condition (syringomyelia). When people see breeders go through this what incentive is there to even think one can work from inside a breed club?

Why I Spoke Out About Cavaliers by Margaret Carter

"Why did I give the interview, by Margaret Carter.

I found out my top stud dog had sired SM in 2001.

When I was told about the symptoms *I realised there were other unrelated, top stud dogs siring affected offspring as well. I realised that because of these dogs the genes for this condition would be spreading throughout the cavalier population in the UK and abroad.*
I thought that other cavalier breeders would realise the significant threat that this would hold for the breed and they would join in to try & stop the condition spreading

I was on the cavalier Club committee, well placed to raise awareness of the problem & to help the researchers investigate the problem. This I did for the next five years

The Cavalier Club gave their backing to SM research and there were some notable breeders that supported the collection of DNA & later MRI scanned their cavaliers & bred to the unofficial guidelines, *but the top breeding & showing kennels were antagonistic from the start, denying there was any problem.*
As time went on talks & seminars were arranged by some of the clubs and later there were some subsidised scanning schemes, although it was mainly the smaller hobby breeders that attended. *The successful showing & breeding kennels were not represented.*
I saw my own cavaliers, descendants of my stud dog, develop SM symptoms and had calls from people that had my dog's affected offspring and grandchildren. Over these five years I also received many distressing calls from owners of unrelated SM diagnosed dogs, some that had to be put to sleep at less than a year old.

Last year I started a scheme to deliver cavaliers that had died to Cambridge for post mortem. Nearly all had died of MVD, two were 7year olds that dropped dead from heart failure. It made me start questioning how many breeders did actually test their cavalier's heart before breeding. I realised that we had a breeding protocol that we had only paid lip service to for years, as it was too inconvenient to follow in it's entirety. I had not done so with Monty, & I could think of only one person who did actually follow it..

*Early illness & death from MVD has become accepted as the norm, no longer something to be shocked at, and it is easily explained away to those that have bought cavalier puppies.*
It seemed to me that the same attitude was beginning to develop in regards to syringomyelia

At the Club Championship show this year the dog that won BIS was widely known to have SM. I had been very disturbed late last year when someone told me they planned to mate him to two of their bitches. When I suggested she asked to see his scans, she said that the owner had assured her that he only had the malformation & that suggestions that he had SM were part of a witch hunt. With that BIS win, and considering that some of the most successful breeders were using him & he already had one champion son, I knew he could well end up as a top stud dog.

I knew from first hand what harm that would do."​ . . . there is more

This is another link with more information about Monty.

http://cavalierkingcharlesspanielclub.co.za/When dreams stop coming true.pdf

I come from a working breeder's background. Since 25 years ago I've had my heart set on having a couple of breeding Cavaliers in my retirement. At one point I though I might enjoy showing. Therefore I have been at different times a member of this club, and as I have contemplated who to get involved with as a member, and which dogs I might want a descendant of, I have watched all this happen. From a breeders point of view, I am completely disgusted.

The question that always occurs to me about those who breed, even if their ethics are straight up, is how they can even stand to be part of (even letting one penny go toward) breed clubs or registries that are deliberately keeping their eyes shut and continuing in their corrupt ways?

I have yet to get my mind around purchasing a pup from someone which has a pedigree going back to the many who are unethical, as then I have inadvertently supported them. Then there is the question of standing in the same ring!

Because in my youth my mentorship was with working breeds where breeders worked with loose associations but without clubs, I see that as a better solution, but I'd love to hear how others address these difficulties.

SOB


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

and yet, a friend of mine posted this to me the other day.

Yesterday I took part in something I thought I would never see in pedigree dog breeding. Breeders with dogs from different lines, who years ago fell out so badly that a split occurred in the breed and a new breed club subsequently formed, joining together for the sake of the health of their breed. These same breeders, sitting round a table, openly talking about health problems they had seen in their lines and that they themselves had produced. We aren't talking about minor issues - people were openly talking about their dogs producing epilepsy, having produced multiple pups with cobalamin malabsorption, dogs having 'episodes' (not full epilepsy) but who were then later bred from …

Naturally not everyone there was so open and things I learnt afterwards proves that full disclosure may never happen as, for some, selling pups seems to far outweigh the future of a breed, but it was so heartening to see that top winning, big name breeders were willing to stand up and openly admit they have health problems in their lines.

Such openness can only help breeds improve.

so it appears some breeders in some breeds are trying to make a stand.

in my breed the club is supporting DNA testing, and have had a good response from many of the breeders by sending in the DNA of their dogs.
http://www.alaskanmalamute.org.uk/DNAResearch.htm
http://www.alaskanmalamute.org.uk/DNA Collection Clinic.htm

also very respected breeders that openly spoke about producing dogs with coat funk, and they are STILL respected in the breed,
http://www.minnesotamalamuteclub.com/brdprobs/konahist.htm

and another that was open about Day blindness.
http://www.minnesotamalamuteclub.com/brdprobs/dayblind.htm

Mo


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

Some are very lucky to have a love of a breed that has a good club behind it, Mo, and I recognize that. Others are not so lucky.

I happen to know of some breeders in the Cavalier breed who also are making a stand, and within their own group are doing what can be done. I have watched many of them labeled "health nutters" for a decade for doing what they do, but they labor on. 

I also know that this group is so small that they do stand in rings with breeders and judges of another sort. Sometimes they even have to reach outside and deal with those that are much less ethical, and how they can do that, and how they can continue to inadvertently support the other style of breeding, is what perplexes me.

I'd rather entertain starting a breed from scratch, or breeding as I understand Dimkaz does, a "nonbreed" within a small association of friends, than do that.

As I understand that kind of thinking and do know personally breeders doing just that, I do support in theory, on forums, those who do the same.

SOB


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

dimkaz said:


> HI again. if you read the report i uploaded you'll see that some of the health issues come from conformation (short muzzle and upward/pointy stop, short legs, longer spine etc...) some other from genetic anomalies ... testing for genetic anomalies (and manage appropriately the positive/carriers etc etc) will reduce the incidence of the disease, while conformation issues must be bred out by mating only subject that do not present those exaggerate features...i.e. breed Neos with less skin that get infected and cause cherry eyes problems, shorter daxi so that they don;t get back aches...or less squashed faced/small headed/ taller bulldogs so that they can breath, mate or actually get about freely.. etc...but then they part from the breed standards set by their clubs, consequently they won;t win any show....sure they are healthier, but then they wont make their owners as much money either through stud fees or by selling their champions' litters...
> 
> best
> D


Thanks yes ime going to look at that you certainly know your stuff and is put so well. You certainly talk a lot of sense.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> .
> 
> I agree, it could be done if there was the will to do it. The problem with breeding for looks/breed standard alone, is that it inevitably leads to exaggerations and a 'look' that is currently favourable with the judges at the time. There are steps to improve with the Fit for Function initiatives and it won't happen overnight, but whether they will be enough will remain to be seen  Personally, I think the biggest problems is getting the judges and breeders to realise there is a problem with overexaggeration and until that happens, I can't see much of a change.


So blinkered judges and breeders then? what can be more obvious than the bull dog for problems.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Being ever the optimist, I like to think that with people taking advantage of the health tests available, and any new devoloping health tests, that they can over time try to eradicate health issues, it will be little steps as we all know, especially in breeds where the breeders are blinkered, as already mentioned by other members, but if you dont health test at all IMO you are deliberately fighting the good work that has been done to improve the health and well being of the dogs in our care. for me there is no excuse for that.

Mo


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> Thanks yes ime going to look at that you certainly know your stuff and is put so well. You certainly talk a lot of sense.


thanks...
trying too...is not always easy

best 
D


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

dimkaz said:


> thanks...
> trying too...is not always easy
> 
> best
> D


I bet well i do admit i know nothing about all this other than the basics so tend to see it in black and white so therefore do tend to sit on the fence when it comes to my opinions and ime sure ime not the only one so your knowledge is enlightening.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> So blinkered judges and breeders then?


Yes, but there is no black and white, it's mainly shades of grey. As Moboyd says, there are those that are trying to do what they can to address issues. Some independantly because they don't like what the breed clubs do, which is understandable, and those who try to do it within the breed clubs and I applaud them. Realistically, any real change has to come from within and those who stick their necks out stand for what they believe in have my respect. I think I've said it before, but the dog world is made up of all sorts and just like society, there will be those who listen and those who don't. In many ways, it should be easier to educate those new and coming into breeding - nothing stands still. Like Moboyd I am hopeful that things will improve but it won't happen overnight and it isn't without it's obstacles. So what can pet owners do to help the situation? well considering the majority of puppies breed by show and working breeders end up in pet homes, I think they should insist that all health tests are done, do their research and in their own way, they too will be helping.


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

Wow... 40 odd pages, you lot could talk for britain i swear :lol:

I dont spend much time in here, though it was the 1st place I posted, and I've had to post a few times since then aswell, both asking for advice when looking for and talking to breeders, and most recently when Kira was caught when in season. 

When I first joined I learnt a lot in those 1st few threads about byb's and health testing, and I must say im very grateful for it, I was still thinking of breeding from Kira then, and knew nothing about health tests, and didnt care that she wasnt KC reg'd. Thanks to those who posted in those threads I learnt a lot, and she is due to be spayed in a couple of months, no litter from her :thumbup:

And thanks to that info I'm not waiting to meet the potential breeders of my next husky pup, these breeders health test, work and show their dogs  :thumbup:

And when I had problems with Kira, yea I got some comments which I could have taken the wrong way, but I also got a lot of help, and got Kira the mismate 

So if it wasnt for you lot Kira would probably have about a month until whelp of her non-health tested, unreg'd pups.

So thanks guys 

Sorry pointless post I know


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

sid&kira said:


> Wow... 40 odd pages, you lot could talk for britain i swear :lol:
> 
> I dont spend much time in here, though it was the 1st place I posted, and I've had to post a few times since then aswell, both asking for advice when looking for and talking to breeders, and most recently when Kira was caught when in season.
> 
> ...


:thumbup:

I think this just goes to show why it is important to question people reasons for breeding. Good on ya S&K


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2010)

sid&kira said:


> Wow... 40 odd pages, you lot could talk for britain i swear :lol:
> 
> I dont spend much time in here, though it was the 1st place I posted, and I've had to post a few times since then aswell, both asking for advice when looking for and talking to breeders, and most recently when Kira was caught when in season.
> 
> ...


Not pointless at all
A post like this will encourage our experienced breeders to keep helping.
They now know that what they say works :thumbup:


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2010)

sid&kira said:


> Wow... 40 odd pages, you lot could talk for britain i swear :lol:
> 
> I dont spend much time in here, though it was the 1st place I posted, and I've had to post a few times since then aswell, both asking for advice when looking for and talking to breeders, and most recently when Kira was caught when in season.
> 
> ...


This is one of the best posts on this thread..Im glad there were people to help you.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

sid&kira said:


> Wow... 40 odd pages, you lot could talk for britain i swear :lol:
> 
> I dont spend much time in here, though it was the 1st place I posted, and I've had to post a few times since then aswell, both asking for advice when looking for and talking to breeders, and most recently when Kira was caught when in season.
> 
> ...


Great post and just proves that good can come from asking questions, good luck with your future registered puppy, from health tested parents

mo


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

sid&kira said:


> Wow... 40 odd pages, you lot could talk for britain i swear :lol:
> 
> I dont spend much time in here, though it was the 1st place I posted, and I've had to post a few times since then aswell, both asking for advice when looking for and talking to breeders, and most recently when Kira was caught when in season.
> 
> ...


Excellent post :thumbup:

This just goes to show how the people on here have helped :thumbup:


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

Lol i seem to have killed the thread


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2010)

sid&kira said:


> Lol i seem to have killed the thread


Well think of a question to ask


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## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

in my (no doubt unpopular) oppinion, I think there should be a limited number of licsenced/accredited breeders, who have to follow the regulations and laws surrounding breeding, and they are the ONLY breeders. No matter how much care people take doing health tests etc I still think it is irresponsible to breed puppies for personal satisfaction (which is all it is...the bitch doesn't mind not having puppies) and bring EVEN more poor dogs into the world, when rescue centres are bulging and desperate for homes for thousands of unwanted dogs.

something serious needs to be done to reduce the amount of puppies produced a year..no matter how good/healthy the lines are.


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## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

Do I have to read all 40 odd pages before making a pointless post ??


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Tapir said:


> in my (no doubt unpopular) oppinion, I think there should be a limited number of licsenced/accredited breeders, who have to follow the regulations and laws surrounding breeding, and they are the ONLY breeders. No matter how much care people take doing health tests etc I still think it is irresponsible to breed puppies for personal satisfaction (which is all it is...the bitch doesn't mind not having puppies) and bring EVEN more poor dogs into the world, when rescue centres are bulging and desperate for homes for thousands of unwanted dogs.
> 
> something serious needs to be done to reduce the amount of puppies produced a year..no matter how good/healthy the lines are.


I will add to it to keep it going!

I strongly disagree with you here. A lot of people dont want a rescue dog, they want an 8 week puppy of their chosen breed - so where would they get them. I wouldnt go and get a rescue dog that I didnt want, so I would be dogless. Bit silly when I have been a multi dog owner for the last 35 years. And yes, I have had rescues, but they have been private ones, with a history, and that I wanted for my own personal reasons.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Tapir said:


> in my (no doubt unpopular) opinion, I think there should be a limited number of licsenced/accredited breeders, who have to follow the regulations and laws surrounding breeding, and they are the ONLY breeders. No matter how much care people take doing health tests etc I still think it is irresponsible to breed puppies for personal satisfaction (which is all it is...the bitch doesn't mind not having puppies) and bring EVEN more poor dogs into the world, when rescue centres are bulging and desperate for homes for thousands of unwanted dogs.
> 
> something serious needs to be done to reduce the amount of puppies produced a year..no matter how good/healthy the lines are.


I think that the 'proper' breeders aren't the problem - AND if you limited how many lab breeders there were (for example) you would push the prices sky high and that would actually INCREASE the puppy farmers and bybs because they would see £££££££££s of profit coming in. And how would you police it? - The people that are the problem are those that breed irresponsibly and churn litter after litter out without socialising the pups etc - and it's those pups that often end up in rescue because of the bad upbringing they had in the first few weeks. If you look in the for sale add the majority are unregistered pups (sometimes not even proper peds but being passed off as peds) - these are the people that feed the rescue centres. Most responsible breeders will take back their pups/dogs should the new owners be unable to look after the dog any more. When we picked up our pup we signed a contract to that effect - and many 'proper' breeders have long waiting lists - people that are willing to wait up to 2 years for a pup are not normally the type of people to end up giving their dogs up to rescue except in the most exceptional of circumstances (death, for example).

As my hubby is forces - we find that 99% of rescue centres will not entertain us having a dog from them - so we are forced to buy elsewhere. Also we wanted a border collie from a pup, as the training in the early weeks is incredibly important and the socialising with the family very important. I don't want a staffie or a staffie cross (nice dogs but not what I want my dog to look like), nor do I want a greyhound or a lurcher so that eliminates 70% of rescue dogs, I DO want to know the background of my dog and that all health tests have been done. I will get that from a good breeder (and I did).

The best way to stop all the dogs going into rescue would be to close down all the puppy farms - NI alone produces 5000 pups a year just from puppy farms - I bet all the good breeders in NI only produce a few hundred pups.


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## Debs61 (May 20, 2009)

I would just like to say this
Im not a SHOW person, my bitch doesnt like the crowds...Im not a BYB either.
My bitch has had her health tests..all clear. I found a stud dog..hes had all his health tests..again all clear...She had 3 pups 4 wks ago, I have homes for all them..they will be KC Reg. I did everything right as far as I was concerned.
My bitch will have her health tests every year..I dont care how much it costs..she is worth it.
I come here to learn more about breeding, you can never know enough!!

I appreciate all the help and advice I have got from everyone here.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Tapir said:


> in my (no doubt unpopular) oppinion, I think there should be a limited number of licsenced/accredited breeders, who have to follow the regulations and laws surrounding breeding, and they are the ONLY breeders. No matter how much care people take doing health tests etc I still think it is irresponsible to breed puppies for personal satisfaction (which is all it is...the bitch doesn't mind not having puppies) and bring EVEN more poor dogs into the world, when rescue centres are bulging and desperate for homes for thousands of unwanted dogs.
> 
> something serious needs to be done to reduce the amount of puppies produced a year..no matter how good/healthy the lines are.


I actually agree! But the only flaw is when the breeders decide to give up? Do they '''train''' up there proteges?

But i do believe there needs to be some sort of law introduced to the world of dog breeding. Far to many people breed now :frown: :frown:

And with regards to the above there is way too many ''whimsical'' ''off hand'' and simply wrong ''want to be'' breeders  :frown:


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

spid said:


> I think that the 'proper' breeders aren't the problem - AND if you limited how many lab breeders there were (for example) you would push the prices sky high and that would actually INCREASE the puppy farmers and bybs because they would see £££££££££s of profit coming in. And how would you police it? - The people that are the problem are those that breed irresponsibly and churn litter after litter out without socialising the pups etc - and it's those pups that often end up in rescue because of the bad upbringing they had in the first few weeks. If you look in the for sale add the majority are unregistered pups (sometimes not even proper peds but being passed off as peds) - these are the people that feed the rescue centres. Most responsible breeders will take back their pups/dogs should the new owners be unable to look after the dog any more. When we picked up our pup we signed a contract to that effect - and many 'proper' breeders have long waiting lists - people that are willing to wait up to 2 years for a pup are not normally the type of people to end up giving their dogs up to rescue except in the most exceptional of circumstances (death, for example).
> 
> As my hubby is forces - we find that 99% of rescue centres will not entertain us having a dog from them - so we are forced to buy elsewhere. Also we wanted a border collie from a pup, as the training in the early weeks is incredibly important and the socialising with the family very important. I don't want a staffie or a staffie cross (nice dogs but not what I want my dog to look like), nor do I want a greyhound or a lurcher so that eliminates 70% of rescue dogs, I DO want to know the background of my dog and that all health tests have been done. I will get that from a good breeder (and I did).
> 
> The best way to stop all the dogs going into rescue would be to close down all the puppy farms - NI alone produces 5000 pups a year just from puppy farms - I bet all the good breeders in NI only produce a few hundred pups.


This is one Superbly put post absolutely agree 100% :thumbup:


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> I actually agree! But the only flaw is when the breeders decide to give up? Do they '''train''' up there proteges?
> 
> But i do believe there needs to be some sort of law introduced to the world of dog breeding. Far to many people breed now :frown: :frown:
> 
> And with regards to the above there is way too many ''whimsical'' ''off hand'' and simply wrong ''want to be'' breeders  :frown:


Any law would need enforceing. It wouldnt happen and byb would increase its just how it would be, restrict anything the public really want and it will go to ground


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

I've nothing against responsible, well planned breeding of good quality, healthy dogs. What I do have a problem is people with £ signs in their eyes deciding to breed their pet dogs either to make back the money they have paid out for them (and yes, that does happen!) and those who breed them to make some money, like a neighbour of mine used to when she needed a new kitchen or three piece suite! It never ceases to amaze me how little some people know about breeding their bitch, in particular not even knowing much about their breed and the hereditary problems it should be tested for let alone even basic things like 'how long will my bitch be pregnant for?' - I have seen that one more than once!


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