# UK news: wolf-hybrids rise in popularity?! :eek:



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

The household pets that are 'half wolf' - Telegraph

this sounds entirely insane - 
bad-enough that we have eejits in the USA who breed hybrids, but since when has the UK gone so demented as to allow hybrids as household pets?! 


haven;t Ur ACOs and dog-wardens *heard* of the behavioral problems, household destruction, aggression toward strangers, bites to children, maulings, and several killings by hybrids?  
or do they think the UK-version hybrids are a kinder + gentler strain, 

at least ONCE every year, i have some poor twit on the phone, begging me to help them find a RESCUE organization or a SANCTUARY to take their hybrid in, as they cannot keep the animal any more...  
they are moving, they cannot deal with the destruction inside or out, they cannot keep them confined / they escape, they are afraid of the animal who bit ___ for the first time, etc, etc, etc. 

my personal favorite was the woman who was moving from her own home, with a fully-fenced yard in a rural area, to a suburban high-density apartment, and she had been letting the INTACT * MALE hybrid decide for himself if he wanted to sleep indoors or out, since he was 6-MO. 
he had not spent a single night in the house since he had turned 12-MO... _and he was then past 2-YO._
what makes her think that he will want to live as a PET in anyone elses home, after she dumps her 90# problem-child in Their Lap? 
:frown2:

get a clue, folks - 
wolves and dogs are INTER-FERTILE, they are _not interchangeable._
the domestic-dog is separated by a minimum of 10k years of evolutionary change, and thousands of years as human companions; they have GENES in common, yes... but their _*behavior*_ is wildly different. :shocked:

humans share over 98% of the chimpanzee genome... 
but a chimp reared in a human family does not become human, 
and a human infant reared by chimps would make a spectacularly un-successful wild primate. 

a wolf-hybrid is neither a dog, nor a wolf; they have no place in this world, their niche is non-existent. wolves have a life that is vastly different from a dogs; dogs accept human behavior that a wolf will literally kill U over.

the New England woman who died in the pen with her 30 hybrids was not found for 2 or 3 days, as she lived alone; by which time, all they could say was that she DID die of an attack by more than one of the hybrids, but not what may have triggered the assault; the forensic evidence was far too muddled to get anything intelligible. :001_huh:

hybrids make-up less than 1% of the approx 70-Million dogs in the USA; they represent about 1 in 5 of the fatal attacks + serious maulings. 
that is well above their statistical percentage in the population. 
if someone OFFERS U a hybrid-pup, do NOT get suckered; any puppy is a far different critter from the adult, i am sure U will admit that an 8-WO Cavalier + an 8-WO Rottie mature into entirely different beasts.

a hybrid at 2-YO and socially mature is *not* a compliant animal.

they are spooky, wary of strangers, attracted by odors (dig THRU sofas to check smells in the carpet beneath the sofa?!, LITERALLY drilling thru the sofa vertically), they are extremely predatory and may kill smaller animals + small dogs or other pets, they have been known to stalk children, they are increasingly aggressive once past puberty, etc, etc.

an adult-hybrid is the ONLY canine that i have ever heard of, to leap clear off the floor in order to rip-down a ceiling fan when left home alone; it was moving, the hybrids kill them. 
(in the Southern states, a ceiling fan is practically mandatory to have any comfort in the heat, and the insulation is so poor in many Southern homes that the ceiling fan is also important for moving the heat \/ down \/ near the floor where we walk about + sit, LOL, vs lingering 10-ft up... )

if Ur near-neighbor gets a hybrid as a pet, and does NOT install a fully roofed, cement floored kennel structure... move. they are escape artists; they climb, dig, jump, chew, and probably teleport out of wire-roofed, 8-ft tall cyclone fenced pens, with solid concrete floors and concrete-set metal posts. :shocked:

if YOU get one... please do not call me to take Ur dear darling off Ur hands, in a year or 2 or 6-months. the nearest no-kill sanctuary for YOUR hybrid is in YOUR living-room; every reputable refuge has a 2 to 3-year waiting list. 
it is a hemorrhage of misfit animals, and so sad - so needless. 

wolves + dogs are no longer the same species - it does neither of them any good, to be conjoined like a prisoner inside a pretty specimen that is not what it appears to be; they are condemned to a misfit existence, and often die young. it breaks my heart.

sad to see this spreading, 
--- terry


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I agree people shouldn't breed hy brids. I owned one for many years she was a rescue at 2 yrs old I had her until she passed at 12 yrs old. I was also very lucky she was a great girl. I am forever telling people hybrids should not be bred or owned, there are wonderful dogs if you like the look go for a mal, husky or northern inuit, lots of wonderful choices leave the wolves alone.....Jill


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

It was kinda hard to read, I gotta get new glasses 

But I like the writing so nothing against you 

I met two or three hybrids.

The first was a cross from a wolf and either a golden lab or golden retriever. It was huge  I remeber getting outta the car to see this huge face look over the fence at me. He was very friendly, was never aggressive as far as I know and an all around good dog. He did tho break a chain leash on a walk once.

The second was a wolf cross(not sure what with). He lived with a friend of the families. I remeber once my dad came to pick us up and he left Dutch in the car (she was not friendly with other dogs) this wolf cross was in a large pen with another dog. We heard snarling and barking outside when we went out the wolf cross had jumped the pen and had gotten its head thro a crack in the car window. Dutch had a rip thro her muzzel. The Wolf cross was put down. But this wolf cross was no where near as big as the lab/golden/wolf cross tho.

The Third I remeber at a dog sled racing event. It was huge like the first cross and was pure black. But it was well trained and friendly.

I live in Canada. But this was over a decade ago. I know there is a man who lives near here who has wolf crosses in a large pen. He takes care of them and they are left to roam in the secured area.

I dont think crossing them is right and wolves should be left in the wild untouched by humans.


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

I find it amazing that with hundreds of pedigree breeds to choose from, that some people just aren't happy enough and still want more.

More viscous...More muscular....More intimidating...More deterring = More 'respect'?

I do feel that the main reason these hybrids are bred or owned is because of fear. People want to look tough; untouchable.

But today's criminals carry guns, and a hybrid is no match for a bullet. Can't they see that?


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Well sometimes I'm just ashamed to be human.  We keep messing with nature and one day shes going turn around and bit us in the wotsits. I love wolves *but in their own environment*. No way in hell would I want to have one of these beautiful creatures or a half breed in a domestic environment. When the hell are we going to learn that just because we can do something doesnt mean that we should :mad2: I sincerely hope that this craze does not take off here.


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## Wolfdog23 (Aug 19, 2010)

Hi,

I joined this forum just to post this reply and to remove a lot of the ignorance that has been reflected in the previous posts.

I own a wolf hybrid, I have done for some time and the reason I decided on a hybrid is that they are breed for temperament not for style as pedigree dogs are. The so called pedigree breed standards have caused more distress to dogs due to standards that have been exagerated to such an extent that it affects the health and hapiness of the dog, this shows humans at their worst.

ALL dogs that currently exist ARE hybrids and ALL originate from wolves. I am more worried about bad owners and bad breeders than I am of hydrids aslong as they are managed and trained properly as all dogs should be, either large or small.

I must confess that I have been bitten several time over my life, ALWAYS by someones else's dog who "never did that before" and by small breeds of dogs who are "cheeky little dogs" and "dont need training" according to their owners who laugh and smile when they are attacking my dog.

What I wanted to make sure that each of you are aware of something and have direct experience before making judgements that are based of insufficient evidence and decide on what is and what isnt true.


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## Sam1309 (May 18, 2010)

rep for the OP very very well put


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I can see rescue centres being full of hybrids soon. It will be the morons who have no idea about training, etc that will be most attracted to these dogs then get rid of them when they realise the hard work that's required


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## Wolfdog23 (Aug 19, 2010)

Hey All ,

I agree with that fact that training is the thing that a lot of owners fail at and blame the dog for it. I agree with Cleo about rescue centres being overloaded as they are full already of all breeds of dogs, sadly this is due to people no longer being able to feed or care for their pet properly. The RSPCA has recently stated that they will no longer be able to take dogs from owners who merely cannot take care of the animal anymore and will only take dogs that are being confiscated due to a prosecution through unlawful treatment.

There are many things we as humans should be ashamed about and the ill treatment of animals is one that we ignore if we can, but shows the worst of us as a species 

Too many people take on pets and resent the effort that the pet requires during its life, I met someone walking a 4 week old puppy on a public road, on asking the owner about the pup he admitted that he had walked over a mile and a half to get where he was and didnt understand that the pup needed to be innoculated and was too young even to be away from its mother let alone being walked for 45 minutes, BTW the pup was bought from a pet shop, GAH!!!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Terry, unfortunately you get people everywhere in the world who want something for the sake of wanting it. Just wait for the names to start cropping up, wolfsky, wolfamute, wolfador, wolfapoo, etc, etc


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

bird said:


> Well sometimes I'm just ashamed to be human.  We keep messing with nature and one day shes going turn around and bit us in the wotsits. I love wolves *but in their own environment*. No way in hell would I want to have one of these beautiful creatures or a half breed in a domestic environment. When the hell are we going to learn that just because we can do something doesnt mean that we should :mad2: I sincerely hope that this craze does not take off here.


Here Here! its because i love Wolves so much that i dont believe in crossing them with dogs, i would never line the pockets of a breeder of such a cross, in the USA there are sanctuaries for unwanted hybrids , thousands more are destroyed:frown:.

as for the CWD and the sarloos well they are now far enough removed from the wolf to be classed as dogs and shown as such over the continent, sadly in this country they are crossed with each other and the Inuit to line the pockets of unscrupulous breeders who are feeding the demand of certain members of the gp who like to be seen with a 'wolf' ....... basically many poor animals are being exploited to death, i wish no one would buy them and stifle the trade!



Cleo38 said:


> I can see rescue centres being full of hybrids soon. It will be the morons who have no idea about training, etc that will be most attracted to these dogs then get rid of them when they realise the hard work that's required


my thoughts exactly!


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

Wolves are an animal to which many, many people are attracted. So far so good! Why then would they want to destroy the very wildness that makes the wolf so attractive by crossing it with a domestic dog??? It is romantic insanity on behalf of those wanting to buy their "own personal wolf" and economic cynicism on behalf of those wanting to make money by exploiting other peoples' naive romanticism (and that is before the bully boys decide they might make good "frighteners!")
KEEP WOLVES IN THE WILD WHERE THEY BELONG!!!!

Mick


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

raindog said:


> Wolves are an animal to which many, many people are attracted. So far so good! Why then would they want to destroy the very wildness that makes the wolf so attractive by crossing it with a domestic dog??? It is romantic insanity on behalf of those wanting to buy their "own personal wolf" and economic cynicism on behalf of those wanting to make money by exploiting other peoples' naive romanticism (and that is before the bully boys decide they might make good "frighteners!")
> KEEP WOLVES IN THE WILD WHERE THEY BELONG!!!!
> 
> Mick


Very well said! this is exactly the way i feel

when i see these hybrids i feel nothing but pity and sadness for the animal and rage that they were ever bred in the 1st place!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

raindog said:


> Wolves are an animal to which many, many people are attracted. So far so good! Why then would they want to destroy the very wildness that makes the wolf so attractive by crossing it with a domestic dog??? It is romantic insanity on behalf of those wanting to buy their "own personal wolf" and economic cynicism on behalf of those wanting to make money by exploiting other peoples' naive romanticism (and that is before the bully boys decide they might make good "frighteners!")
> KEEP WOLVES IN THE WILD WHERE THEY BELONG!!!!
> 
> Mick


I take it you're not a big fan of the idea of a wolfapoo then?

Only kidding :lol: rep for succinctly putting the point across exactly right!!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

raindog said:


> Wolves are an animal to which many, many people are attracted. So far so good! Why then would they want to destroy the very wildness that makes the wolf so attractive by crossing it with a domestic dog??? It is romantic insanity on behalf of those wanting to buy their "own personal wolf" and economic cynicism on behalf of those wanting to make money by exploiting other peoples' naive romanticism (and that is before the bully boys decide they might make good "frighteners!")
> KEEP WOLVES IN THE WILD WHERE THEY BELONG!!!!
> 
> Mick


But that's exactly it, people want something to boast about, like a designer handbag! Some people just want an animal because of the look, the image, etc with no consideration of what the animal wants or needs.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> ...people want something to boast about, like a designer handbag! Some people just want an animal because of the look,
> the image, etc with no consideration of what the animal wants or needs.


yup :thumbdown: these same ppl buy an Akita or Ovtcharka and *never* socialize the pup-to-dog from arrival to 2-YO, 
or get a BC or Malinois as if brains are contagious, *but never habituate the pup or dog, then blame the dog 
for cringing from diesels, lunging + barking at cars, hiding under the bed on garbage-day, and so on.*

these are the twits who buy *a Rott-pup and never teach the puppy that visitors are nice, then dump the pup 
at 12-MO cuz s/he is "nasty when ppl come over, and i would never forgive myself..." * 
well, i won't ever forgive U, either - for NOT training, NOT socializing, and NOT habituating -

for all those who buy dogs as public-image or breathing-security, for DoG's sake 
_grow up - _ anything U can put in a closet or park in a garage or dock in a marina, *fine - * 
consume as conspicuously as U please. *just not living beings - * 
sentient creatures need intelligent care, lifelong - not 'storage'. 

 stepping off my soapbox, and feeling Much! better, thanks, 
- terry


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

I know and understand your frustration Terry.  Wolf Hybrids have been in the UK for many years, at least 20. Many of them have very little actual wolf in them anyway but a few are genuine hybrids. A lot of people who purport to breed these animals are actually breeding huskies and malamutes (and their crosses) to GSDs, BSDs etc and passing them off to the unsuspecting public as wolf hybrids.  But those few genuine ones that I have had experience of have been shy and nervous. They are hardly magnificant guard dogs! I dislike such hybridisation and I wish something could be done about it but whilever the gullible public desire status animals to fuel their ego's and impress their friends, there will be unscrupulous breeders to supply them.:frown:


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## Wolfdog23 (Aug 19, 2010)

Hey All,

Well I am confused know, first we were on a rampage about wolf hybrids being these dangerous and vicious animals that should be caged and banned, now we are saying that breeding them is cruel due to inbreeding and detremental issues caused by the production of hybrids in general.

I am sorry but I am having trouble stopping from laughing to death here, because I think issues raised can be said about ALL dog breeds. How do you think a breed of dog starts. A human decides to create a dog for a purpose, to hunt with, for behaviour, for looks, for size, for blood sports and even for war. To ensure they obtain the characteristics they require in breeding is a standard practice, it has been done since the dawn of time and inbreeding still continues today to maintain breed standards as laid down by such bodies as the kennel club, even the RSPCA had to withdraw their support from Krufts due to the problem. So to say that breeding wolf hybrids is cruel due to this then I say take a long hard look at yourself and the dog you may own and think about what you are really saying, because many of you will have animals created in the same way if not worse!

Without hybrids we would not have a dog population with the variety we have today, breed standards are a recent thing and the definition of a pedegree dog certainly is a very recent invention. I have owned many dogs over the years and I have had 3 world class pedegrees, each pedegree was rescued and I adopted the animals due to what the owners saw as imperfections and disabilities which are common issues for that particular breed. To consider that only people that own a wolf hybrid as a status symbol then this is very hypercritical. We mostly choose a dog because we like the look of it or we had one as a kid growing up or something else to drive the choice, but it is a choice clean and simple, we choose a type of dog. To say one breed is wrong is to say all breeds are wrong and to say a wolf is a wolf and a dog is a dog and should remain that way is a bit of a miss understanding of genetics as wolves and all dogs are members of the same genetic family tree and if we stated that about 15000 years ago them we would have not domesticated the wolf in the firsy place and non of the so called breeds of dogs would exist today!

There are significantly more serious problems with breeders today, not just in the UK but world wide, and we have a serious issue with a great many dog breeds. To create a dog such as the chihuahua which cannot naturally give birth to its young anymore because of an excessive need for a designer dog, no body here is condeming the people that have these dogs or the breeders for breeding them, let alone the number of registered breeders that over breed their dogs and these arnt classified as puppy farms.

We shouldnt have called this thread as wolf hybrids rise in popularity eek! we need to call it, what have we done to the poor wolf to create such aborations we call dog breeds!!

So I hope you all have had a nice day and keep safe and well


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## vizzy24 (Aug 31, 2008)

I knew someone who had 2 from pups imported from Ireland half timber wolf half gsd, they were used to guard his business. It was a very rural area. I was very opposed to these dogs from the start I must admit. They looked like very leggy gsd but had a vey different temperament and not one I liked at all. Like mentioned previously they are escape artist and they escaped attacking a gsp in front of its family including young children. I think the gsp survived after emergency veterinary attention,but this poor dog and family must have gone though hell watching them do this to their beloved pet. They were not ordered to have these dogs pts, just to keep them restrained. They agreed but how can you keep a guard dog restrained


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Wolfdog23 said:


> Hey All,
> 
> Well I am confused know, first we were on a rampage about wolf hybrids being these dangerous and vicious animals that should be caged and banned, now we are saying that breeding them is cruel due to inbreeding and detremental issues caused by the production of hybrids in general.
> 
> ...


the wolf and the dog are now seperated by thousands of years of evolution the evolution of the domestic dog was a natural occurance and it didnt happen overnight! so to take a wolf and cross it with a dog is imo ignorant and cruel and downright irresponsible!.... the dog is domesticated the wolf a wild animal!!!

as Raindog says leave Wolves in the wild where they belong, if anyone truely cares about this wonderful animal they will do just that!

just to add when you say "without hybrids we would not have a dog population with the variety we have today" im not sure what you mean? because wolf blood hasnt been reintroduced into most domestic dogs to produce the 'variety'  so are you meaning crossing different Dog breed/types to get the variety? if this is the case than they arnt hybids they are the same species.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

raindog said:


> Wolves are an animal to which many, many people are attracted. So far so good! Why then would they want to destroy the very wildness that makes the wolf so attractive by crossing it with a domestic dog??? It is romantic insanity on behalf of those wanting to buy their "own personal wolf" and economic cynicism on behalf of those wanting to make money by exploiting other peoples' naive romanticism (and that is before the bully boys decide they might make good "frighteners!")
> KEEP WOLVES IN THE WILD WHERE THEY BELONG!!!!
> 
> Mick





noushka05 said:


> the wolf and the dog are now seperated by thousands of years of evolution the evolution of the domestic dog was a natural occurance and it didnt happen overnight! so to take a wolf and cross it with a dog is imo ignorant and cruel and downright irresponsible!.... the dog is domesticated the wolf a wild animal!!!
> 
> as Raindog says leave Wolves in the wild where they belong, if anyone truely cares about this wonderful animal they will do just that!
> 
> just to add when you say "without hybrids we would not have a dog population with the variety we have today" im not sure what you mean? because wolf blood hasnt been reintroduced into most domestic dogs to produce the 'variety'  so are you meaning crossing different Dog breed/types to get the variety? if this is the case than they arnt hybids they are the same species.


You both make very good points and I agree with you, it's just crazy. Leave the Wolves alone.

There are that many breeds and designer dogs around, if you can't find a dog you like out of all these, perhaps a dog is not for you.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Wolfdog23 said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> ...first we were on a rampage about wolf hybrids... dangerous and vicious animals that should be caged and banned,
> now we are saying... breeding them is cruel due to inbreeding and detremental issues caused by the production
> of hybrids in general.


errrmmm, No - we were saying that OUT-crossing domestic dogs ===> to wolves <==== 
should be banned, and that such hybridization is bad for both dogs + wolves - just like breeding a liger 
[tiger x lion] or zebronkey [zebra x donkey] or coy-dog [coyote x dom-dog], it is bad for the domestic-species 
and bad for the wild-species, too.

in the USA they are not aiming to stabilize a 'breed' like the CSV or Saarloos, they cross any dog 
[mostly prick-eared Nordics or shepherd-breeds] to ANY wolf - Arctic, timber, red, Eastern-Canuk, 
Mackenzie Valley, from wherever - and then the progeny are sold. 
most are 50-50 dom-dog X whatever-wolf; some are high-percentage, a few are 16% or 25%.

*as i already said - YOU do not have a wolf-hybrid - YOU have a domestic-dog, 
the product of 2 breeds that approx 35 to 45 years ago, were out-crossed to a wolf, or a few wolves. 
EVERY ancestor since then has been a dom-dog*, so the wolf-genes are still there, but not as recent, 
intense or prominent. if they were DNA-profiled, i would bet less than 10% and possibly as low as 5%, 
have wolf-markers.

_yet notice how profoundly that small percentage continues to affect the Saarloos - 
* because * the breeders continue to select for high-reactivity, neophobia and timidity, 
not for confidence, exploratory and calm, thoughtful responses, highly human-affiliative, 
interested to meet new-humans, not rattled by new objects, settings and experiences. 
'domestication' is not easy, simple or one trait only - it is very broad, indeed. _

cheers, 
- terry


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I read something a few years ago about people getting these 'cool' wolf/dog hybrids, finding out they can't cope when they show more wolfish characteristics than doglike ones & abandoned them to fend for themselves. There were concerns about these hybrids polluting the gene pool of true wolves, I can't remember where I read this but it was an interesting article & a sobering thought when you think about how these completely unsuitable people seem to be able to get hold of them


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Wolfdog23 said:


> I own a wolf hybrid, I have done for some time and the reason I decided on a hybrid is that they are breed for temperament not for style as pedigree dogs are.


congratulations :huh: but Ur Saarloos x Czech WH is not a '*hybrid*'.

i entirely fail to see how *wolf-hybrids* - defined as wolf X dom-dog - can be 'bred for temp' by combining 2 animals 
of such divergent behaviors.

* wolves are monogamous and pair-bond 
* Ms tend their mates, provide food while she dens, feed pups, and pup-sit; they actively participate in rearing pups

* un-related wolves will readily adopt any young pups under 4-MO - they will wet-nurse, feed by regurgitation, 
etc, as for their own progeny

* young wolves who are past-puberty but not ready to disperse help rear their younger siblings - 
both M + F wolf-juvies will argue for the chance to tend pups.

like adults, wolf-juvies will take under their care any younger wolf who is orphaned, lost, or simply plunked 
in front of them; feeding, minding, playing with them, letting them tag along while they hunt small prey, etc.

* dom-dogs are polygamous with NO pair-bond - when estrus ceases, M-dogs disappear

* bitches are on their own to rear pups, and must feed themselves and their pups

* dogs do not immediately-adopt puppies - 
Except Fs who have recently-whelped, or Fs who have reared litters: 
some allow a needy pup to nurse, triggering lactation, oxytocin and bonding; 
many want nothing whatever to do with pups not their own, except play - 
UNLESS they recently whelped and lost a litter, 
OR their recent-litter is augmented by non-related pups/non-dog infants.

* M-dogs whether adult or post-6-MO rarely have an extended interest in any pups, even their own; 
they MAY play with pups, but don't feed, tend, wash bottoms/eat waste, mind, guide, etc. 
if they are tired of playing, they grumble the pup away, or leave the puppy, whichever is easiest.

* young dogs will play with pups - but have no deep-desire to feed, guide, mind, etc. 


Wolfdog23 said:


> ALL dogs that currently exist ARE hybrids and ALL originate from wolves.


dom-dogs have been separated from wolves for many thousand years, at least; 
that wolves were the species of origin is indisputable - and we also have some DNA-evidence that *the Arabian wolf 
was the progenitor species - a wolf that hunts alone, but communally feeds the single litter and the dam. 
these are not dramatic hunts of cooperative predation on large game - they eat small game, clear down to insects. *

alleging that wolves and dom-dogs are INTERCHANGEABLE is a ludicrous statement, IMO + IME.

* dom-dogs have a longer intestine than wolves - dogs are omnivores, not primarily-predators with fruit added, in season 


Wolfdog23 said:


> ...I wanted to make sure that each of you ...have direct experience before making judgements that are based of insufficient evidence and decide on what is and what isnt true.


again, a Saarloos x Czech-wolf-dog does not qualify as a 'hybrid' - hybrids are 4 or fewer generations 
from a 'pure' wolf.

i have met quite a few hybrids - only ONE of the many was a happy animal, a F who lived contentedly in their home, 
tolerated visitors and would play with them, but had no interest in being petted by them; she would let them 
touch her, but if they persisted, would move away. 
she was crated when they left her at home solo; she was spayed at 5-MO, extensively socialized + intensively 
and carefully habituated. she rode in the car, but did not enjoy it - altho she did not fuss, she would drool.

the others were all unhappy animals; they dug in the yard or pen, destroyed anything not stone or metal 
which they could get to, were UNsocial to non-family [either flee or growl or attempt to bite; snap at any 
non-family hand; could not be examined or handled by the vet without a muzzle, and preferably sedated 
even with a muzzle; etc].

i imagine that U saw the bite statistic? wolf-hybrids are a tiny slice of approx 75-million canines kept as USA-pets; 
yet that tiny percentage was the agent of One in Five serious attacks resulting in mauling that needs plastic-surgery, 
or kills the person. 
this clearly indicates that either their aggro or their fear is utterly disproportionate, compared to the fears 
or aggro of dom-dogs, in similar circs.

the majority of wolf-hybrids are neophobic once past 4 to 6-MO: new ppl, new places, new settings 
are not interesting, but disturbing. they rarely accept new humans as completely after-puberty 
as the average dog - *i am not referring to 'aggressively social' breeds* like Labs, some Goldens, 
and many pitbulls, who mug total-strangers for petting and lick them as if they were ice-cream - 
*but ordinary dogs*, who after meeting a person once or twice casually, will allow them to pick up 
a paw without worry, walk them away from home on a leash, bathe or brush them without fussing much, 
and otherwise are very tolerant of non-family handling or interference.

**nicole wilde* is a fellow USA-apdt member who has reared and lived with multiple hybrids, 
worked in hybrid-rescue, and done B-Mod for hybrid-owners to address behavioral issues - 
she is widely acknowledged as an expert on wolf-hybrids, and has written several books on them. * 
here is an assortment of articles, books, etc, by *nicole - 
nicole wilde on wolf-hybrids - Google Search

and a QUOTE - from ABOUT.com 
Wolf Hybrid Awareness Through Education (WHATE section 1) 


> EXCERPT - *bold and underline added - *
> 
> _Behavioral Traits
> * *Early, consistent socialization*
> ...


*Note: 
"perimeter fence" = a fence AROUND the fence - separated by at least 8-ft from the inner-fence. *

my wolf-hybrid destroyed - Google Search


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## Wolfdog23 (Aug 19, 2010)

OMG!!! what are you people going on about, the statement that wolf hybrids are a "ticking time bomb that will go off at some point" and "is an accident waiting to happen" is pure rubbish and speculation, as the time bomd has already exploded, not by the "evil" wolf hybrid that you all keep harping on about but by the very cuddly, oh so sweet, standard breeds you all defend with such utter ignorance. Every fatal attack that has occured in the UK has been caused by the domesticated dog you seem oblivious to as a potentially dangerous animal. To pick out a wolf hybrid as a potential killer is pure speculation, the fact is that many other breeds, which are far more common place, are responsible for deaths and injuries.

Just because you may have heard of someone once or maybe seen one of these dogs once do something isnt fact, its hearsay and is not worth the time to write about. The fact is ALL dogs have the potential to commit harm to other dogs and humans if not properly handled. We seem ignorant to this fact and like to complain that this shouldnt happen or that is wrong, when you may be the cause of an attack on another person by not giving the dog you own the respect it needs. Just because you love your dog and think its the best pet in the world does not mean it would not cause harm to others, very many dogs attack through over protection of its owner, and its not the dogs fault, its the owners!!! But of course that would never happen with one of you, how many owners have thought or said that and been shown to be truely ignorant of the animal they have beside them.

I can give you hundreds of examples of dog attacks in the UK, and I am sorry to say its the same breeds that you may own, the media has demonised some dog breeds to such an extent they have been covered by the dangerous dogs act. These dogs are domesticated animals, NONE of which are wolf hybrids, ALL are breeds that certain people love and adore and many fine examples exist of their breed and are even shown at Krufts.

All I can say is grow up people and smell the roses because to say one breed has the potential to attack over another breed is rubbish, no dog is a saint, but humans are the only species that can be sinners, and we prove that each and every day.

Dont blame the attack on the dog, blame the human that thinks its a lovely dog and of course comes trained straight out of the pet shop or from the breeder. Its takes a dedicated owner to have a stable dog, the day you take your eye off the ball is the day you end up in court and your dog is put down. Dont kid yourself that this will never happen to you and look down on people that you think are wrong for what they feel is the right pet for them, look down on the ignorant and stupid that seem to blindly take certain breeds of dogs as the only breeds to own as all others are stupid, dont look right, are too big, too small, too hairy, not hairy enough. This all sounds stupid but I have had people come up to me and say they love dogs and then in the same breath say that they hate big dogs as they are to big, that is a personal preference and not a fact that big dogs are more dangerous than other breeds.

I bet you that some of you have huskies or GSDs at the moment or have done in the past, these dogs a far more common place and are far more likely to attack another dog or a human as we as a species have breed them for certain traits, huskies are a working dog, and make very poor house pets, GSDs were breed as sheep dogs, but we re-engineered them to be more agressive and assertive for guard dog duties. Even the tiny jack russel " that a huge number of people own in my area BTW" was breed to be a hunting dog. We seem to forget that the majority of dog breeds were engineered to serve a purpose, keeping dogs as family pets is a very recent event, and keeping a dog of any kind indoors is unatural, and even cruel for some breeds.

So people, I ask again look at what your saying and before you condem someone or something, look at what you are doing and have done, what negatives can you find in the breed of dog that you own, and how many attacks is that breed responsible for in the world.

BTW, doing a search on wolf hybrids being destroyed is a very singular search and produces results from the USA where access to wild wolves for illegal breeding does occurr, can I ask you to do a simular search for dog attacks in the UK, you will be surprised by what you get back, more tails of woe and sorrow about common dog breeds being shot by farmers and put to sleep after attacking a human or worrying live stock!!

I will be honest about this and say is the wolf hybrid is gaining popularity within the UK then this is a positive and not the negative that you all keep going on about. Different does not mean wrong or bad, if you start down this road, when no harm or cruelty is being actually acted upon a animal for breeding purposes, then you slip down the road of being biggots and end up like the NAZI's, blame the defenceless and destry what you dont understand. The RSPCA has never condemed a wolf hybrid or any other breed just for existing, it has how ever condemed the standards which certain dogs are breed to, and these standards are set by YOU!!!

And as far as leashedforlifes thought on the subject matter, UM, the wolf hybrids allowed to be owned in the UK and fall outside of the dangerous wild animal act the saarloos and Czech wolf dog are named, many other so called wolf hybrids exist but are not descended from wolves and are just crossings of huskies and GSDs. The saarloos and the czech wolf dogs that you say are not the ones that fall into the wolf hybrid catagory are the very ones you are condeming. Get your facts straight, and then think again about what you are trying to say, its true that some people own wolf hybrids with verying genetic makups and degrees of wolf in them, but then whats wrong with that. It take a good owner to be responsible with any breed of dog and a poorly handle labrador is just as deadly as a poorly trained Saarloos wolf dog. Aparantly for you ignorance is bliss 

Think once, Think twice and if you dont actaully know then keep quiet!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Wolfdog23 said:


> OMG!!! what are you people going on about, the statement that wolf hybrids are a "ticking time bomb that will go off at some point" and "is an accident waiting to happen" is pure rubbish and speculation, as the time bomd has already exploded, not by the "evil" wolf hybrid that you all keep harping on about but by the very cuddly, oh so sweet, standard breeds you all defend with such utter ignorance. Every fatal attack that has occured in the UK has been caused by the domesticated dog you seem oblivious to as a potentially dangerous animal. To pick out a wolf hybrid as a potential killer is pure speculation, the fact is that many other breeds, which are far more common place, are responsible for deaths and injuries.
> 
> Just because you may have heard of someone once or maybe seen one of these dogs once do something isnt fact, its hearsay and is not worth the time to write about. The fact is ALL dogs have the potential to commit harm to other dogs and humans if not properly handled. We seem ignorant to this fact and like to complain that this shouldnt happen or that is wrong, when you may be the cause of an attack on another person by not giving the dog you own the respect it needs. Just because you love your dog and think its the best pet in the world does not mean it would not cause harm to others, very many dogs attack through over protection of its owner, and its not the dogs fault, its the owners!!! But of course that would never happen with one of you, how many owners have thought or said that and been shown to be truely ignorant of the animal they have beside them.
> 
> ...


I have never once said wolf hybrids are evil! the people who breed them are the only ones i'd label with that title! you have totally missed my point its because i DO care about them that im so against the breeding of them! what i believe is these animals can never be truely happy in captivity, they can never live in the wild so therefore they should never be bred, its selfish!!!! look at all the hybrid rescues in the USA even those who run these sanctuarys beg people not to breed/buy these poor animals.

in this county as ive said before the majority of saarloos and CWD's are crossed with other breeds and bred for one reason only to line the pockets of byb's... its just pure exploitation of these dogs.


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

Wolfdog23 said:


> I bet you that some of you have huskies or GSDs at the moment or have done in the past, these dogs a far more common place and are far more likely to attack another dog or a human as we as a species have breed them for certain traits, huskies are a working dog, and make very poor house pets


Yeah.... right.....





































As far as attacking other dogs or humans - huskies are incredibly gregarious and playful and any aggression towards dogs or people is either a sign of very poor socialisation or some kind of disorder.

Mick


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

Bloody hell, Mick!

I count nine dogs in that first pic_ but no dog hair_!

You using a spray-on glue or something?


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

I'm a mite confused. The linked article in the OP says...



> The growing numbers of hybrid wolves in the UK follows clarification of their legal status by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, which means hybrids can be kept without a licence in this country if they are just *three generations **removed from the wild animal*.


Later Terry considers...



leashedForLife said:


> hybrids are 4 or fewer generations
> from a 'pure' wolf.


So does the objection here centre around a single generation?


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

There are very few actual genuine wolf hybrids in the UK and a lot of husky/malamute/GSD crosses and wolfish looking crossbreeds that are sold as wolf hybrids.


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## Wolfdog23 (Aug 19, 2010)

Hey all,

Look, this whole thing started with a post about an article written in the Telegraph, which was a story about wolf hybrids starting to be breed in the UK. As far as what hybrids we are talking about, it was clarified in a private message from the originator of this thread to me about what I needed to understand as to what we were discussing.

Well I have news for you about what type of wolf hybrid were being discussed during this artical, it is infact the Saarloos wolf dog and Czech Wolf dog breeds, it is not someone in the UK randomly breeding new blood lines from wolves, either 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation or more. These 2 breeds have existed for 80 years and 60 years (give or take a few years) respectively. The article interviews a gentleman call Charlie Richardson, I know Charlie as he was the breeder I bought my dog from so I know what the artical was actually refering to unlike certain persons on this thread. I unlike many dog owners actually researched my chosen breed and after visiting the few breeders in the UK that actually do breed these dogs and not someone falsly claiming their dogs lineage, I decided that my choice was a good one as I look at her curled up in her basket sleeping.

All of you are defending their partciaular breed, and I appologise If I have offended someone, but even a huskie owner admits in this very thread that a huskie has the potential to attack humans and other pets though as I have already made clear in previous posts that it takes a bad owner and a badly adjusted dog for this to occur, but I dare anyone to say their breed of dog would never attack someone just because the breed standard says so, to do so is an assumption, and assumptions are the source of all mistakes.

The best dog trainers in the world all agree that there is no such thing as a bad dog, just bad owners, this is what I feel is true, as I have met many dogs and the dogs attitude is a direct reflection of the owner, both good and bad.

I love my dog as do all of you love yours, and to have someone say to me that I have bought into a line of cruelty and been ripped off by an unscrupilous breeder only out for profit annoys me. This thread is a load of rubbish, all breeders are in it for the money, I know of no breeder that will honestly say that they just give their dogs away, and people only want to win competitions such as Krufts to get more money for the dogs they breed, so dont be fooled by this as a reason for condeming a breed. There are more bad breeders of poodles, dobermans, Jack russels and labradors than there are of true wolf hybrids.

If someone misrepresents a dog breed then they are subject to prosicution under the consumer protection act. I hate to say that the majority of these breeders, and I have seen a few in my research, never claim that the dogs they breed are Saarloos or Czech wolfdog breeds, they only claim wolf like dogs, which are mainly huskies or malamutes or some other dog breed crossed with a GSD. If people want to buy this type of dog then fine, but most of the breeders are ex malamute or huskie breeders that want more money as the true wolf hybrid breeds command a high price. For people that own huskies in the UK then many trainers would like to say that they hope you are using them for what they are intended as to not to do this is cruel and in humaine. A huskie is a breed for a differrent climate as are a number of breeds, and to subject them to being house bound and not to work as they have been intended is a recognised reason why most huskies become unbalanced. This is sad, but to say no one should own a huskie in the UK because we dont have the climate is also wrong, it is the responsibility of the owner to recognise the needs of the dog they keep or intend to keep and not just look at a dog and say thats the one I like the look of and then have a manic canine 6 months later that they cant control. I have used a huskie as an example ( i do not condem the huskie as a breed just that it has needs ) here but its also true of many other breeds, for example :- border collies, spaniels, lurchers, and many more breeds. Each breed has needs and requires an owner to meet those needs, if you dont then you get what you deserve. If you want a pet then get a gold fish, If you want a companion then buy a dog, as to maintain a health companionship requires work.

The Saarloos wolfdog was breed to remove the genetic faults that exist in the current GSD breed, to create a healthier dog more resistant to infection and have better life expectancy. The Czech wolfdog was created as an experiment in the 1950's to produce a dog which would be able to patrol the Czech border and not be as problematic as the GSD. These breeds were never created for people to have a pet wolf, but to correct an error in prior breeding programs and improve animal health. This is born out as both breeds show longer life spans better general health than the GSD,s they are breed from many years ago. 

If change to improve something is bad then heavon help us all, because stone age here we come and god help the planet we live on.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I think one of the reasons you see a lot of huskies about is because they look like wolves and there is always some numpty who will say: I'll go one better than that - I'll get a real wolf!

I have only met one hybrid - a cross between a malumite and Canadian Timber wolf. He was rather beautiful, but I only met him for a few minutes and he was 12 years old so probably mellowed.

My mother used to say that German shepherds were crossed with wolves, but I believe it is because that was the rumour put about when they first came into this country and the early ones did look wolflike.

One of my favourite creatures is a tiger. What can I cross that with that will make a domestic pet? Any suggestions?


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## huskylover23 (Feb 9, 2010)

raindog said:


> Yeah.... right.....
> 
> As far as attacking other dogs or humans - huskies are incredibly gregarious and playful and any aggression towards dogs or people is either a sign of very poor socialisation or some kind of disorder.
> 
> Mick


thank you 

i too have plenty of photos like yours. my husky is so sweet and kind. i trust her around my child too. the same for misty too when she was alive.

you dogs are amazing mick :thumbup::thumbup:


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

Wolfdog23 said:


> Well I have news for you about what type of wolf hybrid were being discussed during this artical, it is infact the Saarloos wolf dog and Czech Wolf dog breeds, it is not someone in the UK randomly breeding new blood lines from wolves, either 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation or more. These 2 breeds have existed for 80 years and 60 years (give or take a few years) respectively.


I would not regard either the Sarloos or the Czech Wolfdog as wolf hybrids. The are domestic dog breeds with (compared with most other breeds) relatively recent wolf input. They are recognised internationally by the FCI as dog breeds and by many national Kennel Clubs (not the UK KC as they are still too rare for inclusion). Neither are ideal breeds for inexperienced owners.



> For people that own huskies in the UK then many trainers would like to say that they hope you are using them for what they are intended as to not to do this is cruel and in humaine. A huskie is a breed for a differrent climate as are a number of breeds, and to subject them to being house bound and not to work as they have been intended is a recognised reason why most huskies become unbalanced. This is sad, but to say no one should own a huskie in the UK because we dont have the climate is also wrong, it is the responsibility of the owner to recognise the needs of the dog they keep or intend to keep and not just look at a dog and say thats the one I like the look of and then have a manic canine 6 months later that they cant control.


As it happens, we do work our huskies in the winter and they love it:





































However, there are myriads of different ways huskies can be exercised adequately and the best kept secret about the breed is that, given the chance, they will sleep 20 out of every 24 hours. Temperature is not really an issue as the summer temperatures in Siberia (from whence they originally came) are similar to ours, so they can cope with a huge variation in temperature. As long as they are not being worked hard during the summer, they can cope as well as, if not better than most breeds with the heat.

@ John - it was a lucky shot. As soon as the shutter snapped, balls of husky hair came wafting across the floor like tumbleweed and it was soon covered again.

Mick


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## Wolfdog23 (Aug 19, 2010)

Raindog, 

I truely am glad to see a huskie owner who knows what the dogs are for and yes I am aware of the breeds quirks, but your dogs know that they get great exercise and have fun working with you on a regular basis. The fact that you do this directly shows that you are a dedicated owner and that you handle the dogs in the proper manner and their behavior reflects that. Sadly though not all huskie owners are as fine examples as you and this can result in a problematic dog, as with all breeds including Saarloos and Czech wolf dog breeds as they are not immune to bad ownership.

As far as the UK KC registration of the Saarloos breed is concerned, they were originally granted membership and were treated as a recognised breed until DEFRA decided that the breed was to be listed and controlled under the Dangerous Wild Animal Act, at which point the KC registration was recinded as no animal covered under the act was allowed to be a KC registered breed. 

Since the act was amended in 2008, the Saarloos and Czech wolf hybrids as they were classified under this law and are not covered now only if the example of the breed was more than 4 generations from a wolf crossing. This goes for the other wolf hybrids that were listed and designated by DEFRA in the earlier revision the act.

The Czech wolf dog is currently awaiting membership of the KC and hopefully will receive it soon. I will have to check with the breeders that I know about the status of the Saarloos Breed as far as KC registration is concerned.

As far as the other breeds of known wolf hybrid, I know very little as not many are actually bred within the UK, a few crosses from north america are starting to make a showing in the UK, but again DEFRA regulations apply and all the dogs imported are more than 4 generations away from wolf crossing.

Its sad that this whole thing has been taken out of context by the ignorance of the person starting this thread, I suppose they enjoy the lime light and seek attention through scare tactics. DEFRA covers wolf hybrids and defines the conditions under which these animals must be maintained. People who say that their dog is less than the number of generations away from a direct wolf crossing as dictated by the act concerned is lying, as importation is strictly controlled as is the conditions and security necessary to keep the animal is defined in the ACT.

I am lucky to own a great dog, one that has generated a great deal of controversy in this thread, even though people keep changing their mind as to what wolf hybrid breeds they are talking about and why they shouldnt exist. 

Someone once told me there are 4 kinds of people and their level of understanding with relationship to a subject, these are as follows:-

1) people that know they know
2) people that dont know they know
3) people that know they dont know
4) people that dont know they dont know

of the 4 kinds the last is the most common on forums, every one has an opinion, whether based on fact or fantisy and you will never convince some people that what they started was based on something taken out of context and a deep level of not knowing that they dont know anything about the subject.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Wolfdog23 said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> ...this whole thing started with a post about an article written in the Telegraph,
> which was a story about wolf hybrids starting to be [EDIT: 'bred'] in the UK. As far as *what hybrids we are talking about, it was clarified in a private message from the originator of this thread to me* about what I needed to understand as to what we were discussing.


 my 'private message' was a visitors message to the profile... 


> leashedForLife 19-08-2010 02:53 PM
> 
> did U read the article, hun? this might answer Qs of why they are concerned.
> The household pets that are 'half wolf' - Telegraph
> The household pets that are 'half wolf' - Telegraph


ALL I DID was point back to the original news-article - which is hardly mind-blowing information, 
and a visitors message is not privileged info  either.

cheers, all, 
- t


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Wolfdog23 said:


> Raindog,
> 
> I truely am glad to see a huskie owner who knows what the dogs are for and yes I am aware of the breeds quirks, but your dogs know that they get great exercise and have fun working with you on a regular basis. The fact that you do this directly shows that you are a dedicated owner and that you handle the dogs in the proper manner and their behavior reflects that. Sadly though not all huskie owners are as fine examples as you and this can result in a problematic dog, as with all breeds including Saarloos and Czech wolf dog breeds as they are not immune to bad ownership.
> 
> ...


as i said in a previous post like Raindog i dont even consider CWD's or saarloos wolf hybrids they are classed as canis familiaris .

as for you saying 'all breeders are in it for the money' you couldnt be more wrong, ethical responsible breeders of pedigrees most certainly arnt! they only breed occasionaly when they want to keep a puppy/puppies back for themselves for showing/working they most certainly dont breed to supply the pet market, you seem pleased that the 'wolfdogs' are gaining popularity??? i would have have thought you'd have beed horrified that they are, i know i am so sad about the boom in popularity of my own breed:frown:

what are your opinions on the breeding of true wolf hybrids?? i was led to believe that you were talking about these in your earlier posts.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Johnderondon said:


> The linked article in the [Telegraph] says...
> QUOTE
> The growing numbers of hybrid wolves in the UK follows clarification of their legal status by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, which means *hybrids can be kept without a licence in this country if they are just three generations removed from the wild animal*. UNquote
> 
> ...


not at all, john  that was my off-the-cuff opinion.

i did not refer to DEFRA or their definition of wild-type vs OK-to-keep, 
only stated my general experience - which with USA-hybrids, is often 50-50 or 25%-wolf / 75% dom-dog. 
*the more wolf ancestry and the more-recent the wolf-outcross, the more likely problematic behaviors 
become, IME thru owners statements, and IMO formed thru other sources - articles, books, research, 
'breed' profiles on websites from owners, breeders and/or critics of direct-outcross USA wolf-hybrids - * 
i have not LIVED WITH a wolf-cross and have zero interest in the experience - 
if i am going to experience a wolf, i want it to be a wolf - not a canine-mule. 

** nicole wilde * HAS lived-with, raised, and rehabbed wolf-hybrids of low, moderate and high wolf-percentage, 
and i accept her statements as informed and accurate - *_ even tho i have disagreed with her, in some areas.  _
like *encouraging responsible ownership - * i would rather BAN bastardizing wolves with dog-genes, 
and have wolf-hybrids disappear by attrition over the next 10 to 12 years. 
i think dog-genes do nada but damage the wolf, which is a splendidly adapted wild animal :thumbup: who does not deserve such adulteration.

similarly, i love domestic-dogs - and think that infusing neophobia, shy-sharp behavior, timidity, 
aggression over food, HOPELESS house-manners and incredible destruction, is also severe damage to dogs... 
we spent between 40k and over-100k YEARS getting them like we wanted them, and are now out-crossing 
to wild-type? :thumbdown: _bad idea - APOs can make a hash of raising dogs as mild-mannered 
as domestic-potatoes, like Shih-Tzu and Pugs!_ the average dog-lover is NOT up to added challenges - 
like stalking the neighbor's 2-YO, taking food with impunity right off plates, and eating wallboard when home alone.

MY experience of wolf-hybrids with RECENT out-crosses to real wolves, contrasts with the UK-version of *'wolf-dog'* - 
any Saarloos, CSV, which are 40 to 50-Year Ago outcrosses to wolf, then BACK-crossed to domestic dogs 
to develop the original founders, who have since been bred to *each other -* NO recent wolf out-crosses... 
so these IMO are just *domestic-dogs with a recent-past infusion of wolf genes... *
80 or more dog-generations ago [approx 40-years plus].

the UK 'wolf-dog' fad also includes ** *frauds* ** - dogs SOLD as 'wolf-hybrids' for a markup - 
to profit from the current fashion; these are dom-dogs with no recent wolf-genes.

also wolfy-appearing breeds were created to mimic the look =MINUS= the problem-behaviors of wild-k9s: 
wolfy-looking dom-dog breed crosses, mostly various Nordics with less profuse coat in the 'wolf-dog' 
and more leg, plus light spectacles and other 'wolfy' markings... but they are 100% domestic-dog, 
despite their looks.

hope this clarifies, 
- terry


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Wolfdog23 said:


> The article interviews a gentleman call Charlie Richardson, I know Charlie as he was the breeder I bought my dog from so I know what the artical was actually refering to unlike certain persons on this thread.
> 
> Since this article appeared in The Telegraph, Charlie Richardson has stated that he no longer breeds wolfdogs and has never bred or planned to breed 'hybrids'. " I have found it increasingly difficult to find the right types of homes for my dogs" remarks Charlie, "they can be demanding and don't always suit peoples modern lifestyles....seems Charlie Richardson has had 2nd thoughts about breeding them...good on him
> 
> ...


do breeders hip score saarloos and CWD's??


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## Wolfdog23 (Aug 19, 2010)

Well I am again confused by the random opinions of the founder of this thread, the fact that seems to make up your whole basis of the original statement that the artical referred to is about leash upon the british public a huge raft of dangerously crazed dogs and the world gone mad, when the actual artical is nothing of the kind, its is just a story stating that breeds of dogs, which are the most recently recognised breeds as having recent wolf crossing compared to other breeds, is being introduced into the UK, such as the CSV and Saarloos not as claimed by the originator the same issues as faced by the USA.

All of a sudden this innocent story was turned into a major event for no reason, and been thrown together with random facts and half truths to form an opinion founded on speculation. 

I agree with the government, that these breeds should no longer be restricted by law due to the fact that the law was too vague and clarification was added in the ammended act which sets down the number of generations from a mating from a wolf is allowed under law to be kept by a private citizen without the restrictions designed to protect the public from wild animals and the poor wild animals from the public.
The UK was the only country that had this restriction in place to cover these breeds, and the number of generations as detailed within the act isnt random, its a european standard and all we did was fall in line with the rest of europe. 

I personally cant say if its insane to own a wolf hybrid that is less than 3 generations away from a direct crossing, thats because I have never met one, and I can almost guarantee neither have any of you, to judge without experience is to falsly judge. But to be honest I dont think i would want one, sounds a bit too much like a pain to keep one as you have to provide a dedicated enclosure, you have to apply for permission from defra each time you want to transport them and have their destination compound authorised as fitting the requirements, so it all sounds too much for me. 

I will state now that breeding any dog without due consideration as to what you are creating is dangerous not only to us but to the animal itself. As it happens I personally think all americans are insane and do the crazy things they do and then screem blue murder when it goes wrong, this includes un-supervised crossing of dogs with wolves.

BTW these so called super breeders that only breed for the love of the pedigree so seem to charge huge sums for their dogs, I suppose they give the money to charity then, I think not!!! They may not breed as much as some but dont fall into the illusion that money isnt also on their mind when making their choice of breed selection and blood lines, it cost a lot for a top stud dog believe me, Ive seen what some people charge per shot. Better blood lines gets higher prices, and when there are people willing to pay tens of thousands of pounds for these dogs (and I'm not exagerating as top breeders dont talk about money as its the dirty side of their business and never promote it) I say good for them, for they get to brag about how much the dog cost and what great breeding it has, oops sorry thats only the owners that want wolf like dogs.....NOT!!

I wont mention huskies any more because its not fair to highlight a particular breed, but I like dogs, my preference for larger breeds is my personal choice. Each of us has the option to choose a breed of dog and crosses of these breeds is common place, such as labradoodles ( I thought this was a joke when someone told me ) which is a strange cross but seems to be popular, to highlight the fact the we have started to bring in more wolf like breeds and then turn that little fact in to a UK pending catastrophy tale of woe is wrong, Its just wrong. No clarification was given at the time as to what link there was between the story as told by the telegraph and the random facts spurted out below it. When you put these two things together you are twisting what the telegraph story was actually stating and raising an issue that does not affect the breeds that the story was talking about, you exagerate the issue way beyond the truth to suit your own skewd view of the situation.

Some days i truly despise the internet, not because of forums as informed discussion is a wonderfull thing, what I dislike is that people can search and pull bits of stories and discuss them as fact, I love the fact that in the USA 1 out of 5 attacks are committed by hybrids, what hybrids, are there rampaging labradoodles tearing through the USA causing havok, if so Ill have to get an anti doodle kit to protect myself, where do you get these facts from?. It takes the US government months to analysis this sort of data as different agencies deal with dog attacks and each state and county has its own records which are not centralised unless you deal with the DoHS or FBI , and as far as I know i dont think agent mulder has seen alien hybrids attacking many people lately. Please tell me if im wrong, as ill have to get a kit for that aswell!!!

Oh and yes, all the breeders I have spoken with have their dogs hip scored and some have DNA testing aswell. I have records for my dogs parents, grand parents going back 7 generations and even further if I wanted to take the trouble 
Also for an additional fact, the breed standard score for both the Saarloos and Czech breeds is slightly lower than that of the GSD, my dog has been recently joint scored and has a combined score of 5, breed standard average is 17 where as the GSD is 19 the last time I looked, as lower is better we are all happy campers!!

And yes Charlie Richardson has stopped breeding these dogs as good owners are difficult to find, some breeders arnt as considerate to their dogs and if you got the money you have got the dog. I respect Charlie a great deal as my dog was bred by him, he loves his dogs and mine was one of the last bred by at his kennel. Its sad that this is the case, but its true, not many people are responsible enough or are in a position to own such a dog responsibly. Its due to the requirements of the breed and not a failing as many of you will assum. So yes I agree with you that he has made the right choice, but its not the breeds fault, its just that the majority of people wanted a pretty dog and didnt understand the needs of the breed. He had a contract drawn up for each dog he sold, that if the dog was no longer wanted or bred without permission or abused, then it had to be returned to him. This was even enforced in a court case where one of his dogs was being mistreated and was ordered to be returned due to the terms and conditions as laid out by the contract. How many breeders feel that strongly about their animals?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Wolfdog23 said:


> I personally cant say if its insane to own a wolf hybrid that is less than 3 generations away from a direct crossing, thats because I have never met one, and I can almost guarantee neither have any of you, to judge without experience is to falsly judge. But to be honest I dont think i would want one, sounds a bit too much like a pain to keep one as you have to provide a dedicated enclosure, you have to apply for permission from defra each time you want to transport them and have their destination compound authorised as fitting the requirements, so it all sounds too much for me.
> 
> completely missing the point again! i dont need to meet one to know breeding wolves creates miserable animals who can never live a fulfilled life!
> 
> ...


ive just looked on the BVA site and no saarloos or CWD's were scored last year or the year before i wonder if all the breeders are being honest, and tbh im really quite shocked that the breed mean score is as high as 17.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Wolfdog23 said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> As far as the *other breeds of known wolf hybrid*, I know very little as not many are actually bred
> within the UK, a few crosses from north america are starting to make a showing in the UK, but again
> DEFRA regulations apply and all the dogs imported are more than 4 generations away from wolf crossing.


what *"other breeds of known wolf-hybrid", * WD?

a *breed* must consistently create progeny who are distinguishable from other species-members - 
a Duroc, Poland-China, Yorkshire-White are all hogs; each one looks like their parents, and UNLike other 
domestic-hogs - if they all looked alike, we would have no breeds; if each looked different from their 
parents, we would have no predictable breed traits - rate of growth, feed conversion, mothering ability, 
litter size, BMI, heat tolerance, weight as adults, congeniality, stress tolerance and more.

other than the Saarloos and Czech-WD, which *wolf-hybrid breeds* throw consistently recognizable pups, 
who grow-up to look like their parents - size, amount of coat, markings, pelage color, behavior? 


Wolfdog23 said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> Its sad that this whole thing has been *taken out of context by the ignorance of the person starting this thread*,


:001_tt2: don't be shy, honey - tell me how U *really feel. *

since i am the ignorant person that HYBRID-owners whose animals are one or 2 generations from wolves, 
are phoning to 'rescue' the hybrid that they cannot live with, or don't want to move with, or who is wrecking 
their home at 7-MO or threatening family-members now that the hybrid has reached 18-MO... 
maybe U'd like to volunteer?  feel free - *then YOU can tell them that every sanctuary in the USA is stuffed, 
that waiting-lists average 2 to 3-years, and that most shelters are unwiling to rehome or even house a hybrid - 
period - no discussion, no evaluation, they are NOT accepting liability. *

the fools here in the USA who breed + sell wolf-hybrids are profit-seeking and have no ethical qualms; 
they are perfectly willing to tell the prospective BUYER what they want to hear - 
one woman called me wanting to re-home her 3-YO intact-F, the animal she had reared from 3-WO; 
she was getting married, and altho her fiance was fine with the hybrid, the pending *move* from rural 
to urban-rental was not going to work [according to the owner]. *she had been told that her hybrid would 
DEFEND her rural home and her property - * by the time the hybrid was 6-MO that was patently false; 
she never barked and fled from any intruder. her 3-YO was timid in public, but very soft-natured; 
at home she was hesitant but warmed-up to visitors over a day or so, or with repeat visits. 
*but would she cope with a shelter? No.*

here is a link to the Dec-2007 update of Maple Run Kennel - 
Wolf Hybrid Puppies For Sale

SCROLL DOWN to see the update-photos and the statements of owners, who post there. 
here is the page of updates on the Wayback Machine - 
Internet Archive Wayback Machine

more ads : 
WOLFDOG & WOLF HYBRID PUPPIES FOR SALE FROM FAMILY BREEDERS

please notice where this guy's hybrids live - 
Wolf Dogs For Sale Wolf Dog Mixed Puppies, Wolf Hybrid 
and where he recommends that YOU live to rear + keep a hybrid...

classified ad site - 
Wolf Hybrid Puppies For Sale - Yakaz Miscellaneous

The Wolf-Dog Hybrid - An Overview of a Controversial Animal 
AWIC Newsletter: The Wolf-Dog Hybrid 
by Robert A. Willems, DVM; Veterinary Medical Officer
USDA, Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service
Regulatory Enforcement and Animal Care
Western Sector, Sacramento, CA 95827

enjoy, 
- terry


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## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

I am going to admit this now.....When I was younger I wanted a wolf cross, but that was just dreams, didnt ever think I could actually get one.......and this is why.......










Anyone remember this? Sullys dog was amazing and gorgious!!! Even though he was a mal he was meant to be a wolf, which made me fall in love with them...then I grew up found out he werent a real wolf etc etc.

They are meant to be a wild dog, they are gorgious yes but yeah agree, should never be a pet!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Johnderondon said:


> Bloody hell, Mick!
> I count nine dogs in that first pic_ but no dog hair_!
> 
> You using a spray-on glue or something?


nope  she uses a Roomba that runs 24/7 :thumbup: and does hot-swaps with a back-up battery 
every 3-months to keep the battery from developing a false floor; they empty the Roomba every day, 
AM + PM.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

The Truth About Wolf-Dog Hybrids Interesting link. 

And another Wolf Park - America's Other Controversial Canine, the Wolf Hybrid


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

raindog said:


> @ John -
> it was a lucky shot. As soon as the shutter snapped, balls of husky hair came wafting across the floor
> like tumbleweed and it was soon covered again.
> Mick


:scared: :lol:  :thumbup:


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

My hybrid was a shepherd x wolf from Montana I had met her throughout her life starting a 8 weeks old. I was very fortunate that she was so gentle and easy to train although after I got her at 2 yrs old with a litter of pups, I spent many months in obedience with her to make sure she was totally socialized with all sizes of dogs and humans from little to big. She was extremly protective of her home and this was proved by a B&E guy whom she held firmly by the wrist for some 5 minutes. Never broke the skin. She died at 12 and I miss her to this day. Would I ever buy a wolf hybrid No this was a one off a mum with pups who was going to be put to sleep. If you want a dog that looks wolfish go with one of the many breeds available and do your research I could not handle one now and I know it...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Wolfdog23 said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> Some days i truly despise the internet, not because of forums as *informed discussion is a wonderfull thing*,
> what I dislike is that people can search and pull bits of stories and discuss them as fact,
> ...


it's _"havoc"_, hun  and that is a misquote - here is what i said - 


leashedForLife said:


> *bold + underline added - *
> 
> hybrids make-up *less than 1% of the approx 70-Million dogs in the USA*;
> they represent *about 1 in 5 of the fatal attacks + serious maulings. *
> that is *well above their statistical percentage* in the population.


just to clarify - the hybrids i refer to here are WOLF * HYBRIDS - recent outcross progeny of *wolf x dom-dog*. 
and not just "*attacks*" - fatal attacks and serious maulings - serious maulings need skin grafts, may need plastic-surgery 
and often require physical therapy.

July 2005 http://tinyurl.com/246d94x

because wolf-hybrids are either illegal or have FENCING requirements in many areas, people HIDE their identity - 
Dec 2005 - http://tinyurl.com/2fffquv

June 2005 - The Hawk Eye


> *bold added - *
> 
> Searched for: "Brenda Galvan-Perez", attack, wolf hybrid, wolf dog AND date(all)
> Returned: 2 displays of 2 matches .
> ...


May 2006 - http://tinyurl.com/2bsbytk

Feb 2007 - http://tinyurl.com/24uls4d

June 2007 - http://tinyurl.com/22vevou

June 2007 - http://tinyurl.com/2f2ltr6

Wolf-Hybrid Attacks on Children

1979 - 1998 FATALITIES only: CDC dogbite study, page 2 
238 dog-related deaths in 19 years; 14 from wolf-hybrids 
http://www.cdc.gov/HomeandRecreationalSafety/images/dogbreeds-a.pdf

Information on Wolfdog Hybrid Wolf Dog Mix

this new-owner was "surprised they got out" - he bought 3 - 
Pet Wolf Hybrid Attacks Deputy | Ohio News Network (ONN)

The Wolf Is At The Door, Inc. - In the News

The truth about wolf hybrids essay.

About Wolf Hybrids - Sonoma County Animal Shelter

Wolf hybrid kills grandson, 5

Dangerous Dog Alert: Wolf Hybrids More Likely To Bite | Keller and Keller

Alaskan Malamute and Wolf Hybrids | WestLord.com

Wolf dogs killed owner, autopsy determines

still wanna buy one? WOLF HYBRIDS FOR SALE Classified Ad - Dogs and Puppies For Sale Classified Ad on Free Advertising Website 
 be my guest...


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> The Saarloos wolfdog was breed to remove the genetic faults that exist in the current GSD breed, to create a healthier dog more resistant to infection and have better life expectancy.


I might be mistaken but I seem to remember that Sarloos wolfhunds were descended from only two 'lines' of GSD x Timber Wolf the resulting pups wre extensivley linebred amongst themselves to establish type and to conform to the new breed standard - with such a restricted and inbred genetic base does this not make the Sarloos at risk of genetic anomolies if so how can they be classed as healthier than other more established pedigree breeds ?


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

I am opposed to all hybrids. It is an American thing, I think. As a cat lover, I am shocked to see the popularity of feline hybrids like "American bobtails". "Savannah" cats and caracal-crosses. Left to roam by irrepsonsible owners, these cats are large and dangerous to small dogs and ordinary domestic cats. They DO have behavioural problems. Fortunately, in my country, these hybrids are banned as they are a danger to our indigenous felines. What's wrong with ordinary moggies? What could be more delightful than a cat that fits nicely on your lap?
Humans are very strange in the lengths they will go to, in order to be "fashionable".


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## huskylover23 (Feb 9, 2010)

koekemakranka said:


> Humans are very strange in the lengths they will go to, in order to be "fashionable".


couldnt aggree more:thumbup:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Wolfdog23 said:


> BTW these so called super breeders that only breed for the love of the pedigree so seem to charge huge sums for their dogs, I suppose they give the money to charity then, I think not!!! They may not breed as much as some but dont fall into the illusion that money isnt also on their mind when making their choice of breed selection and blood lines, it cost a lot for a top stud dog believe me, Ive seen what some people charge per shot. Better blood lines gets higher prices, and when there are people willing to pay tens of thousands of pounds for these dogs (and I'm not exagerating as top breeders dont talk about money as its the dirty side of their business and never promote it) I say good for them, for they get to brag about how much the dog cost and what great breeding it has, oops sorry thats only the owners that want wolf like dogs.....NOT!!


Geez, best get on with puppy farming my Labrador then, I've been waiting like an idiot for the right time to take a litter, possibly the only litter I will have from my fully health tested bitch, and I'm hoping to keep two pups back. I reckon I'll be quids in


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## Wolfdog23 (Aug 19, 2010)

I did not mis-quote you at all, the statistics of 1 in 5 attackes were caused by hybrids is too much of a random fact to say that its a wolf hybrid. Thats pure speculation based on your belief, and that from the telegraph arctical , which you based this whole lot of tripe on, was talking about people breeding direct wolf hybrids in the UK.

Since then you have not retracted this fact just reinforced it with more random facts, and if you read your articals that you now quote as dog attacks in the UK by wolf hybrids, most people think my dog is a malamute , GSD or even a huskie!! So someone calling a dog a wolf or wolf hybrid is more likely to have encountered one of the wolf like dog breeds that are actually farm breed in the UK, These are the Northern Inuit, the so called british inuit, the malamute and half a dozen more breeds that are called wolf like. Most people wouldnt be able to tell the difference between most breeds, as with the originator of this thread, its all the same and that fact that there are differences does not even fall into the mix of facts that they are intent on looking at to enforce their false and biased opinion.

I would like to point out that every breed within the UK today has been involved in an attack on a human, and I dare you to say that a breed hasnt.

The originator of this thread is only looking through a microscope at this fact and when they do find 2 articals about attacks by "Wolf Like" dogs, it must be wolf hybrids. OMG what an assumption, I hope your not a news reporter or envolved in anything that requires acuracy as you seem to throw smarties at a blackboard and call it fact.

BTW, that true fact that you are clearly missing is that the hybrids mentioned in your facts and figures are not specified as wolf hybrids, as in my previous post that can be any hybrid and to say its just wolf dogs then is again a major stretch of the truth. And also the fact that the other 4/5 attacks are carried by the breeds of dog you all own. Tut Tut, you own dangerous animals.

I hate to bring this up because I know ill upset some very honest owners here, But I have met several huskies in my time and I can honestly say I would only trust a few of them as the others have been agressive and sadly during my time at an animal shelter I was witness to 3 being put to sleep as having attacked the 7 year old nephew of the dogs owner. Do i start saying that all huskies are evil, breeding them is evil and all should be put down? No. It comes back to the owner being completly inadequate and created the situation which trigered the attack. A huskie is a dog that requires an experienced owner and should not be taken lightly. They are a great breed but I do not feel like owning one, does it mean that because I dont want one they are bad, again no, its just my choice.

I remember when we used to call hybrids mongrels, one of the best dogs I have had the pleasure of owning as a terrier cross and he was great, so dont even think about saying all hybrids are wrong or saying all hybrids are vicious. I have seen more pedegree dogs put dont due to so called behaviour issues than most mongrels.

The stupid thing in this is that I fundamentally agree with you that wolves should not be kept as pets, and I also agree that its just as stupid as keeping other dangerous pets, such as tigers, poisoness reptiles, constricter snakes and even sharks. Yes today I can go into a pet shop and order a Tiger shark and dont need any licences. Is it dangerous, If is decided to swim with the thing, possibly, I dont really know because I have never owned one. But experts all say that the worst thing that ever happened for the image of the shark was the movie JAWS. Since that moment the number of people killing sharks has put them on the indangered species list.

Movies have produce an image of wolves as vicious killing machines that only hunt humans, where as the facts are, very few actuall reports of wolves attacking people exist. Where as the pedegree dogs that we all seem to hold a perfect little angels is the true lie. Even one of the dogs that played Lassie had to be destroyed due to the dog attacking and actor.

The truth in this whole matter is that the artical was not refering to wolves being bred with dogs in the UK and to say other wise is a lie. Is breeding wolves with dogs in an uncontrolled manner a good idea, NO. Does it occur in the UK currently, very unlikely as access to wolves is difficult. Does it occur in the USA, yes there is documented evidence to support this fact, especially since their introduction back into north american states. Does this breeding cause problems, yes.

But to start the thread with *wolf-hybrids rise in popularity?! * with the aim to frighten people is stupid and recless when the facts show nothing of the kind. wow, ignorance is bliss, but you seem to have taken it to a state of nirvana. Wrong is Wrong, miss understands happen but to back a mistake up with false facts and misleading information is truely a great thing to behold on the ignorance scale.


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## Wolfdog23 (Aug 19, 2010)

BTW, I do agree that people go to great lengths to be fashionable, take most huskie owners for example, they fell into the fashion trap in the 80s when huskies had a high profile and its was cool to own a huskie. 

Is this true of all huskie owners?, of corse not, but thats what is being implied here about wolf dog owners. OMG, listen to yourselves and how condescending some of you are, it does stagger belief, but then public opinion is often driven by lies and false hoods, just take the IRAQ and Afghanistan wars. I am truely sorry for those that have lost loved ones due to politicians, that we voted into power, have let die for wars that shouldnt have happened.

To assum that I bought a dog to be fashionable is again a lie, fashion changes, a dog doesnt, and when you consider women are the worst fashion victims on the planet, dont blame us men for that, e.g. Paris Hilton and the poor dog carried in her handbag, next day hundreds if not thousands of poor dogs found themselves being carried around in the same manner. Get real, Get a life, fashion is a human concept that has wasted more time and effort than is neccessary just to get washed and dressed in the morning. The fact that some of the most unethical employers in the world are known to be from the fashion clothing industry just so you can get you cheap knock off as soon as some celebrity has worn something. So your not being just cruel to dogs you by yourself are responsible for torturing humans. Wow congratulations!

When someone says that they should start puppy farming their dog, is being silly. If you want to start puppy farming then get random dogs with no health checks and start breeding in small cages in a shed in the back garden. Many large scale breeders do not fall into what the media has called puppy farms, they breed to the standards as laid down by the UKKC, the fact that these breeders make a living from it does not mean they are bad breeders. But it is fact that when someone breeds a dog there is a cost involved, the purchase of the animal (s) used for breeding, their feeding and vets fees, so if someone wants to give me a dog for nothing with a pedegree bloodline, then great, but it hasnt happended so far and that goes for all the breeders I have met. A lot of people want to breed their dog for personal or sentimental reasons, they are not breeders, they are people who want to keep a living memory of their dog alive. When these people breed I am worried about what happens to the other "unwanted" pups and what conditions the dogs are in during breeding. Unless you have experience breeding animals, the RSPCA recomends that all pets are nuetered and that you should only obtain a dog through a registered breeder. Are you being kind or cruel to you dog?


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

The fact or fiction of wolf-hybrids is entirely irrelevant, the only thing that matters is peoples perception of them. Perception is truth. We all know this so well from the way that the owners of certain breeds are treated on a daily basis, which we hear about all the time.

Having no direct experience of the animals in question I am unable to offer any sound facts or statistics, but I am able to offer my perception based on what I have read and my opinion based on my personal beliefs.

The common, everyday dog is a domesticated animal, bred, developed and evolved over thousands of years to work and live amongst humans. The same can be said of many other animals, horses, cattle etc. Whilst these animals no doubt retain very strong links with their wild ancestors they are also without doubt very different creatures entirely, just as has already been mentioned, we do with apes.

A wolf is a wild animal, fuelled purely by instinct and therefore, despite exhibiting certain predictable behaviours, is completely unpredictable. To breed such an animal with its domesticated counterpart is a matter of personal ethics, however, to then expect the resulting animals to live happily in a domestic setting is at best, foolish and at worst, downright dangerous. How many people would breed their domestic cat with a leopard (hypothetically speaking of course) and expect to end up with cute fluffy kittens with spots that will play happily with a ball of string?

The one indisputable fact that I am certain of is that there are more than enough dogs in the world today that are already in need of homes and these 'hybrids' are too much of an unknown to be worth the risk.


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## huskylover23 (Feb 9, 2010)

Wolfdog23 said:


> BTW, I do agree that people go to great lengths to be fashionable, take most huskie owners for example, they fell into the fashion trap in the 80s when huskies had a high profile and its was cool to own a huskie.
> 
> Is this true of all huskie owners?, of corse not, but thats what is being implied here about wolf dog owners. OMG, listen to yourselves and how condescending some of you are, it does stagger belief, but then public opinion is often driven by lies and false hoods, just take the IRAQ and Afghanistan wars. I am truely sorry for those that have lost loved ones due to politicians, that we voted into power, have let die for wars that shouldnt have happened.
> 
> To assum that I bought a dog to be fashionable is again a lie, fashion changes, a dog doesnt, and when you consider women are the worst fashion victims on the planet, dont blame us men for that, e.g. Paris Hilton and the poor dog carried in her handbag, next day hundreds if not thousands of poor dogs found themselves being carried around in the same manner. Get real, Get a life, fashion is a human concept that has wasted more time and effort than is neccessary just to get washed and dressed in the morning. The fact that some of the most unethical employers in the world are known to be from the fashion clothing industry just so you can get you cheap knock off as soon as some celebrity has worn something. So your not being just cruel to dogs you by yourself are responsible for torturing humans. Wow congratulations!


i havent assumed you bought your dog for fashion you seem to know a lot about your breed so fair enough.

i was just agreeing to the statement in general.

it is true though that a lot of people will be buying these wolf breeds for a statment though.

as you use the husky as an example a lot when we got our husky nearly 2 years ago there were no huskies about at our woods or the local park but in the last 6 months i see lots now. pedigree chum put a husky on one of their adverts and after that i started to see more.

we bought a husky as we love the breed. of course we love the way lady looks she is gorgeous but we also love her personality and hope to have lots of fun with her this winter when we get her pulling.

the thing is i know very little about wolves only what i have seen on films etc and from what i have seen through the media i would be afraid to have a wolf cross i would need to really research it well and be confident in what i was doing.

at the end of the day any dog can turn. i said to my hubby last night isnt it weird to know we have animal in our house who could actually do us a lot of damage physically if she wanted to. i would be very very shocked if lady ever bit us or attacked us. something would have to be seriously wrong but i know if she ever decided too she could.

as you say there is a story about every dog breed attacking if you look for it


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Wolfdog23 said:


> I did not mis-quote you at all, the statistics of 1 in 5 attackes were caused by hybrids is too much of a random fact to say that its a wolf hybrid. Thats pure speculation based on your belief, and that from the telegraph arctical , which you based this whole lot of tripe on, was talking about people breeding direct wolf hybrids in the UK.
> 
> Since then you have not retracted this fact just reinforced it with more random facts, and if you read your articals that you now quote as dog attacks in the UK by wolf hybrids, most people think my dog is a malamute , GSD or even a huskie!! So someone calling a dog a wolf or wolf hybrid is more likely to have encountered one of the wolf like dog breeds that are actually farm breed in the UK, These are the Northern Inuit, the so called british inuit, the malamute and half a dozen more breeds that are called wolf like. Most people wouldnt be able to tell the difference between most breeds, as with the originator of this thread, its all the same and that fact that there are differences does not even fall into the mix of facts that they are intent on looking at to enforce their false and biased opinion.
> 
> ...


to be perfectly honest with you i never even read the link at 1st and i dont class CWD's and saarloos as hybrids ive said that all along....but in your 1st few posts i was led to believe you were talking about true 'wolf hybrids'.

sadly i dont doubt for a moment that you have come across some aggressive huskies, byb'S are churning then out at an alarming rate and they dont give a toss about health or temperament!

a hybrid is the cross of two different species so any cross between dog breeds is just that.... a cross.

im glad we agree that keeping wolves is wrong and breeding wolf/dogs is wrong....all i care about is the animals, i dont think theres anything more tragic than looking at wild animal like a wolf living its life behind bars. Wolves are shy of man cross them with a dog and lord knows what traits the offspring will inherit! not the animals fault just the breeders and the buyers who perpetuate the miserable trade!


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## huskylover23 (Feb 9, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> sadly i dont doubt for a moment that you have come across some aggressive huskies, byb'S are churning then out at an alarming rate and they dont give a toss about health or temperament!


you are right and as you know i have foolishly lined the pocket of 2 BYBs when i bought my 2 huskies. when we got lady she was kept outside in a large kennel with a red bulb put in with her sister and another litter. she was scared, they all were. even now she is a little timid and jumpy but we have worked hard to build her confidence up. if we hadnt put the hours and time in with her i dont doubt she could of ended up being a really nervous snappy dog.

as for their health well what happened to misty speaks volumes and we can only hope lady wont develope any major problems like misty did.

ethical breeders are the way to go for sure


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Wolfdog23 said:


> BTW, I do agree that people go to great lengths to be fashionable, take most huskie owners for example, they fell into the fashion trap in the 80s when huskies had a high profile and its was cool to own a huskie.
> 
> Is this true of all huskie owners?, of corse not, but thats what is being implied here about wolf dog owners. OMG, listen to yourselves and how condescending some of you are, it does stagger belief, but then public opinion is often driven by lies and false hoods, just take the IRAQ and Afghanistan wars. I am truely sorry for those that have lost loved ones due to politicians, that we voted into power, have let die for wars that shouldnt have happened.
> 
> ...


my main concern regarding the CWD and the saarloos is that they are being exploited!!!... ive never seen breeder who seems to be breeding for any other reason that making a profit, theyre crossing them with all sorts do they have any aims with regards to conformation etc??? BVA have no record of either Saarloo's or CWD's being hip scored in the last few years ive just been looking at a big breeders site they really are churning them out theyre breeding labradoodles aswell....seems like theyre cashing in on all the latest crazes :frown2:

breeding is a massive responsibility, breeding for money or sentiment just arnt good enough reasons to do it imo!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

huskylover23 said:


> you are right and as you know i have foolishly lined the pocket of 2 BYBs when i bought my 2 huskies. when we got lady she was kept outside in a large kennel with a red bulb put in with her sister and another litter. she was scared, they all were. even now she is a little timid and jumpy but we have worked hard to build her confidence up. if we hadnt put the hours and time in with her i dont doubt she could of ended up being a really nervous snappy dog.
> 
> as for their health well what happened to misty speaks volumes and we can only hope lady wont develope any major problems like misty did.
> 
> ethical breeders are the way to go for sure


 some people dont have hearts do they and they certainly dont have a conscience!, Lady is very lucky to have such loving owners as was Misty xxx


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

Wolfdog23 said:


> I do agree that people go to great lengths to be fashionable, take most huskie owners for example, they fell into the fashion trap in the 80s when huskies had a high profile and its was cool to own a huskie.
> 
> Is this true of all huskie owners?, of corse not, but thats what is being implied here about wolf dog owners.


I think you have got your dates a little wrong. In the '80's there were probably less than 500 huskies in the UK. When we bought our first Husky in 1994 after two years of looking, it was incredibly difficult to get hold of one. Prospective owners more or less had to serve an apprenticeship to prove they were worthy of owning one. We spent over two years before we got our first - researching the breed, attending dog shows and rallies, visiting breeders all over the country (from Scotland to East Anglia) and talking to existing owners. Eventually we found someone who put us on their puppy waiting list and a year later we had our puppy. Compare that process with the situation today where someone can "source" a pup on the internet and pick it up the same day - no research, no home check - nothing!

The real (and tragic) boom in numbers came not in the '80's, but since 2000 when the puppy farmers and backyard breeders discovered the breed and began breeding them indiscriminately. One of the most well-known puppy farmers in the breed set up in 2000 and has KC registered 88 litters in the 10 years since then - goodness only knows how many unregistered litters they have also produced.

Mick


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## Wolfdog23 (Aug 19, 2010)

I have to agree on the point that the some of the big breeders that remain today are exploiting the Saarloos and Czech breeds and sad to say this applies to a number of other breeds aswell.

I selected the breeder very carefully to avoid this situation as best as possible and it happened to be the breeder that helped introduce the breed into the UK. I didnt want one of the new breeders as it has been rightly said, some are crossing pure blood lines with impure, which has introduced a number of genetic issues due to improper breeding. 

Both my dogs parents have been DNA tested and hip scored but not by the BVA as they were done by the breeder before export to the UK. This is common practice amongst breeders on the continent as it helps the transportation and quarantine of the animal.

Most saarloos and Czech owners dont intend to breed their dog, I have heard of a few new breeders starting up across the country, but the majority of these dogs are also brought in from abroad, from one of the many breeders on the continent.

For people that think the Saarloos breed cannot be kept as a pet, then I hate to say that pure bred Saarloos wolfdogs are currently used in an education program across the UK for schools. These 2 dogs have appeared on TV several times to explain wolf behaviour and to dispell the thinking that wolves are blood thirsty animals. True they are not wolves, but they are the closest thing that can be used to help future generations to understand wolves are a part of nature and not to be feared but to be respected like all wild animals.

The Saarloos is being used on the continent as guide dogs and in search and rescue, as they are naturally inquisitive, intelligent and have an excellent sense of smell and natural tracking ability. They failed at being trained as guard dogs as they couldnt train the aggression neccessary to satisfy the security sector and dont generally bark. The no barking bit is very true and they are incredible lazy animals, as mine regularly thinks she should be taken on walks using the car and not walk to get to national park which is only 500 yards away.

The Czech was bred for a purpose and it shows when you meet one, they are generally for more bouncy dogs and act in a far more forward way than the Saarloos as the Saarloos is more reserved. They are great dogs, but be ready for a lot of running as they do like exercise and are being used for many cross country sports and sledding abroad. Not that common in the UK atm because thay havent been bred here for long. Being less reserved, the Czech dog is used in a security role abroad and like the GSD, is suited to this work.

Its great that we have these breeds in the UK, but not at the cost of bad breeding programs. I think you would all agree about this amd to apply it all breeds of dogs currently kept in the UK and abroad.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Wolfdog23 said:


> When someone says that they should start puppy farming their dog, is being silly. If you want to start puppy farming then get random dogs with no health checks and start breeding in small cages in a shed in the back garden. Many large scale breeders do not fall into what the media has called puppy farms, they breed to the standards as laid down by the UKKC, the fact that these breeders make a living from it does not mean they are bad breeders. But it is fact that when someone breeds a dog there is a cost involved, the purchase of the animal (s) used for breeding, their feeding and vets fees, so if someone wants to give me a dog for nothing with a pedegree bloodline, then great, but it hasnt happended so far and that goes for all the breeders I have met. A lot of people want to breed their dog for personal or sentimental reasons, they are not breeders, they are people who want to keep a living memory of their dog alive. When these people breed I am worried about what happens to the other "unwanted" pups and what conditions the dogs are in during breeding. Unless you have experience breeding animals, the RSPCA recomends that all pets are nuetered and that you should only obtain a dog through a registered breeder. Are you being kind or cruel to you dog?


Please explain why I'm silly? Ok, so I will say I'm not a big breeder, in fact, I'm not a breeder, never bred a litter of pups in my life, but I have one or two of those dratted pedigrees that apparently everyone tells me I will make a fortune breeding from. Your assumption that people with pedigrees who breed are in it for the money, is, quite frankly, an afront.

To breed your dog for commercial, personal or sentimental reasons, to me, is wrong, never said I do it for that either. To breed for the sake of fashion is wrong as well, and to hybridise a wild animal with a domesticated one simply so a person can claim to own an exotic cross breed is simply unacceptable to me. I jokingly queried about wolfapoo's but really, it is no better than the fashionable cross breeding that happens, and in some peoples' eyes it is probably worse.

We've created enough problems with animals all over the world, messing around introducing hybrids which may well then end up back in the gene pool of the wild animal they were crossed with could cause no end of problems. Why not go down to your local rescue centre, choose the dog that most looks like it could have a bit of wolf in there, and be happy with that, save a life, and stop messing about with nature. The only reason to hybridise a wolf is so you can boast about owning one, what other reason is there?


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## Wolfdog23 (Aug 19, 2010)

I appologise to the the British Association of Shooters of Conservationists, I didnt mean to say you are silly, just the statement that you should just start puppy farming with your dog. What I would like to know is, why are you deciding to breed the dog? Arnt there enough breeders already without adding another one.

BTW, I have had many of my dogs from shelters, all documented pedegrees that were abandoned by their owners because of imperfections in the dog that would stop them meeting the breed standard set down by the UKKC. I worked for a animal shelter for 4 years, and adopted these dogs during that period, each dog suffered problems in their lives which is a sad fact of poor breeding practices.

Just because the breeds you are condeming are more recent crosses with wolves than most, dont think you can condem me because I wanted a dog of a certain look or have a certain temperament. It is the same exact reason you have chosen your dogs and these breeds were not created for looks but for a reason to fit a desire to improve a breed with genetic failings and to create a dog capable to operate as a border patrol dog in very harsh conditions. A much better reason than breading a dog because you feel like it!!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Wolfdog23 said:


> I did not mis-quote you at all, the statistics of 1 in 5 attackes were caused by hybrids is too much of a random fact to say that its a wolf hybrid. Thats pure speculation based on your belief...


1 - i have a name, 23. if U address a post directly to me, please use it?  thank U. 
U may use my given-name [terry], my user-name [leashedForLife], or the acronym LFL; 
of course, U could also address me as '*4%#&#@*!', but in the interest of Net-etiquette, one would hope not.

2 - i did not invent that stat - it came from a reputable source, *and i WILL find said source, and provide it ASAP. 
U are very welcome, i am sure. *


Wolfdog23 said:


> ...the telegraph arctical , which you based this whole lot of tripe on, was talking about people breeding direct wolf hybrids in the UK.


3 - i referred directly to the Telegraph article *headline - the title -
"The household pets that are 'half wolf" - Telegraph -* in my subject-line. 
my experience in the USA is with *direct wolf-crosses - * which i have emphasized throughout.

i have also repeatedly stated that *unless someone has OUTcrossed the Saarloos or the CWD recently,* 
U do not have *wolf-hybrids -* U have or have had, *domestic dogs - with a relatively-recent infusion 
of wolf from approx 40-years ago * - and in the Saarloos in particular, we can really see how much that 
*improved* the breed,  as some of the early-generations were used as guide dogs - 
and performed well; then Mynheer Saarloos *inexplicably outcrossed those hybrids to wolves again - 
at which point*, according to the breed's own official webpage history, * that ability was lost.*

that was a crystalline and very-sad example of the human-habit to *test to failure.*


Wolfdog23 said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> ...if you read your *articals that you now quote as dog attacks in the UK by wolf hybrids*, most people think my dog is a malamute , GSD or even a huskie!!


**I** did not label them wolf-hybrids - 
they were labeled by the OWNERS, by the ACOs who confiscated them, or by other *authorities - 
vets, trainers* with hybrid-experience like *nicole wilde* who has given expert-opinion in court-cases, 
or *hybrid-breeders.*

and **I** did not claim they were in the UK - i said they were USA, or more broadly as a few may be Canada, 
*North American* cases- and UK cases. 


Wolfdog23 said:


> So someone calling a dog a wolf or wolf hybrid is more likely to have encountered one of the wolf like dog breeds that are actually farm breed *[puppy-farmed? do U mean Puppy-Mills, or Farm-Bred like BC
> for actual use on a farm? i am confused.]* in the UK, These are the Northern Inuit, the so called british inuit, the malamute and half a dozen more breeds that are called wolf like. Most people wouldnt be able to tell the difference between most breeds...


i have not referred to ANY 'hybrids' which were Inuit, etc. if news-reporters did, that is not *My Fault.* 
please Point Out which links those are, and i will expressly Delete Them ASAP - thank U kindly. 


Wolfdog23 said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> ...as with the originator of this thread, *its all the same* and that fact *that there are differences* does not even fall into the mix of facts that they are intent on looking at to enforce their false and biased opinion.


pardon me - 
i am the same ignorant fool who has REPEATEDLY * Emphasized - meaning over + over + over! - *those differences 
between dom-dogs like Nordics, wolfy-LOOKING dom-dog breeds, 
and real 'recent-outcross' *USA type Wolf-Hybrids -
who are the *F1 progeny* of wolf and dog sire + dam, 
OR *F2 progeny* of wolf-hybrid sire and dom-dog dam OR dom-dog sire and wolf-hybrid dam, 
OR *F3 progeny* of wolf-hybrid sire + wolf-hybrid dam, 
OR *F3 progeny* of wolf-hybrid F1 grandparents whose progeny F2 are then bred to either dom-dog, wolf, or wolf-hybrid, 
OR *F4 progeny* of wolf-hybrid F1 grandparents with progeny F2 *specifically* bred to wolf, 
and the *F3 progeny* then bred to either dom-dog or wolf-hybrid - *in all cases, no more than 3 generations 
exist between the individual animal, and a 'pure' wolf-ancestor. *

i hope that is extremely lucid?  U are very welcome, always happy to help. 


Wolfdog23 said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> I remember when *we used to call hybrids mongrels*, one of the best dogs I have had the pleasure of owning as a terrier cross and he was great, so dont even think about saying all hybrids are wrong or saying all hybrids are vicious. I have seen more pedegree dogs put dont due to so called behaviour issues than most mongrels.


i did NOT refer to any DESIGNER-DOG hybrids in this thread - 
which as an FYI, 
*are the crossbred progeny of 2 purebred parents - * purebred-A X purebred-B = designer-dog hybrid: 
Labra-Doodle, Cock-a-Poo, Border-Border, Border-Jack, etc. [and just for the record - i disapprove of designer-breeds 
precisely because like BYB, puppy-mills and teacup-breeding, or 'rare' color breeding, they are done for profit - 
not for the improvement of any breed, or the establishment of a new standardized breed.]

'Mongrels' a-k-a 'Mutts' are of unknown ancestry - cross-bred or multi-breed or random-bred. 


Wolfdog23 said:


> Is breeding wolves with dogs in an uncontrolled manner a good idea, NO. Does it occur in the UK currently, very unlikely as access to wolves is difficult. Does it occur in the USA, yes there is documented evidence to support this fact, especially since their introduction back into north american states. Does this breeding cause problems, yes.


gee, thanks! :thumbup: i appreciate the vote of confidence - almost lost, unfortunately, 
amongst the spitballs, rocks, rotten fruit, graffiti, etc.  


Wolfdog23 said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> But to start the thread with *wolf-hybrids rise in popularity?! * with the aim to frighten people is stupid and recless[/b]


that was what the Telegraph article headline CLAIMED: 
and i quote: *The household pets that are 'half wolf' - Telegraph *

i did not 'aim to frighten people' - the idea of wolf-hybrids defined as 50-50 wolf + dog as i have seen in the USA, 
being promoted in the UK, frightened ME. i think *that is 'stupid and reckless'.*


Wolfdog23 said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> ...when the facts show nothing of the kind. wow, *ignorance is bliss, but you seem to have taken it to a state of nirvana.* Wrong is Wrong, miss understands happen but to back a mistake up with false facts and misleading information is truely a great thing to behold on the ignorance scale.


descending to personal attacks is very low - 
perhaps U would care to apologize, and / or retract that statement by editing the post? 

all my best, 
- terry


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Wolfdog23 said:


> BTW, I have had many of my dogs from shelters, all documented pedegrees that were abandoned by their owners because of imperfections in the dog that would stop them meeting the breed standard set down by the UKKC. I worked for a animal shelter for 4 years, and adopted these dogs during that period, each dog suffered problems in their lives which is a sad fact of poor breeding practices.
> 
> Just because the breeds you are condeming are more recent crosses with wolves than most, dont think you can condem me because I wanted a dog of a certain look or have a certain temperament. It is the same exact reason you have chosen your dogs and these breeds were not created for looks but for a reason to fit a desire to improve a breed with genetic failings and to create a dog capable to operate as a border patrol dog in very harsh conditions. A much better reason than breading a dog because you feel like it!!


no reputable pedigree breeder would abandon their dogs because of imperfections or any other reason for that matter, nor would a reputable breeder breed 'because they feel like it' or breed for the pet trade or to make money or any other lame reason.

just out of interest was your dog hip scored in the UK then?

and i have to say SleepingLion's last post is excellent!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Wolfdog23 said:


> I appologise to the the British Association of Shooters of Conservationists, I didnt mean to say you are silly, just the statement that you should just start puppy farming with your dog. What I would like to know is, why are you deciding to breed the dog? Arnt there enough breeders already without adding another one.
> 
> BTW, I have had many of my dogs from shelters, all documented pedegrees that were abandoned by their owners because of imperfections in the dog that would stop them meeting the breed standard set down by the UKKC. I worked for a animal shelter for 4 years, and adopted these dogs during that period, each dog suffered problems in their lives which is a sad fact of poor breeding practices.
> 
> Just because the breeds you are condeming are more recent crosses with wolves than most, dont think you can condem me because I wanted a dog of a certain look or have a certain temperament. It is the same exact reason you have chosen your dogs and these breeds were not created for looks but for a reason to fit a desire to improve a breed with genetic failings and to create a dog capable to operate as a border patrol dog in very harsh conditions. A much better reason than breading a dog because you feel like it!!


Haven't condemed you at all, I've condemned the breeding of any animal for the sake of fashion, being able to boast you've got a 'such and such' that has pure 'whatever' in it, etc, etc. I don't get the border patrol dog in harsh weather conditions, surely we have breeds that would suffice? Even a purpose bred cross breed of domesticated dogs would be a better way of providing what you need, rather than hybridising.

I'm not the BASC nor the CA btw, that's just a couple of useful links for anyone interested in hunting and shooting, working your dogs etc, doing what they were bred to do. And, I didn't choose to own a Labrador, but I'm very pleased now that I do. There's such a lot you don't know about me but you seem to like making assumptions.

Pedigree dogs are actually very healthy for the most part, but because you will find more information on health testing, which will also highlight any health defects, then the sweeping generalisation is made that all pedigrees are unhealthy, and then the link is usually touted that it's because they're all inbred. Rubbish really, it is difficult for some of the numerically smaller breeds to maintain genetic diversity, but there are probably more Labradors than wolves in the world, I would guess 

Nice that you've rescued dogs in your time btw, but don't blame responsible breeders, anyone I know who breeds would always take a pup back and stays in touch with puppy owners so that they know where any animal they have bred is, and how it's doing. They also endorse their pups so that they can't have progeny registered with the KC should anyone just go ahead and breed without meeting certain criteria such as health testing, showing, competing etc. Unfortunately, pedigree dogs are also bred as I mentioned before, by puppy farmers etc, this type of breeder isn't limited to the fashionable cross breeds and hybrids


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> these breeds were not created for looks but for a reason to fit a desire to improve a breed with genetic failings and to create a dog capable to operate as a border patrol dog in very harsh conditions.


sorry ...being pedantic I know ...but I'd be interested to know how the GSD could not have been improved genetically by crossing iwth another dog breed ( such as the Dutch or Belgian Shepherd ) rather than with a wolf ? both these breeds are excellent patrol dogs they were after all specifically bred to be 'living fences' and to be highly responsive to their owners with an iinstinct to circle 'their' area.

the wolf by instinct works a within a pack rather than responsing to one individual and roams a large area - behavoiurs which would not have suited them for their intended work- I'm afraid I believe that the main reason for the cross WAS for looks the more wolflike in looks the better ( and the kudos of owning a semi wild animal ) after all if guarding and patrol work was the main intent then why not cross Wolves with Dobermans or Rotties - the GSD was chosen I think because it ensured as much of the *look* of the wolf was retained as possible

as I've said before this breed was founded with a very small genetic base and pure examples of it must be highly inbred - I cannot see how this can make them genetically healthier than most of the established shepherding or guarding breeds


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## Wolfdog23 (Aug 19, 2010)

OK this is to all of you,

These breeds were bred to be intended to create dogs for certain reasons other than their looks, this is stated on all sites which document their breed history. For dog breeds specifically bred for looks then I suggest you look at others which are definatly fashion dogs and can no longer bred naturally or survive without the direct aid of the people that created them.

To use articles from the media to raise awarness is a great thing, to use an article that was wriiten as a side story and link it to a bunch of reckless americans is a true error in misjudgement, and terry I know your name, and in this statement I do refer to you being wrong and malicious in this attack on people mentioned in the article. Your most recent excuse of just using the headline for reference and ingnoring the content of the artical is to be honest the worst case of ignorance I can imagine. If all we did was read headlines would result in a great number of mistakes, Terry, I guess your the type of person to take what they want and ignore the rest. If I am wrong then please confirm to me that the artical was actually talking about directly crossing wolves with dogs in the UK as you indicate in your original post.

To all breeders that I may have affended in my post, I can only appologise if I have let the cat out of the bag about taking money for the dogs you breed is common place. Whilst many of you may be ethical and saintly about your breeds and how they are bred, to say taking money in exchange for a dog is typical in tranactions between breeder and dog owner is a valid one and does not condem you as breeders or as exploiting the dog.

About buying a pet, it is recomended by both the RSPCA and UK KC that potential dog owners go to a reputable breeder, preferably KC registered, but has never said dont get a dog from a breeder that takes money or breeds a more than a certain number of dogs a year. They do this because they recognise that dog breeders operate as a business, vat registered or not. To limit the selection of breeders that just give dogs away, only breed from a single dog only once in the dogs life and are KC registered and perform the health checks such as DNA and joint scoring would result in very few breeders (if any) and a reduction in available dog breeds for people to select from. I personally thing all breeders should be far more heavily regulated by law, not just able to meet the terms set down by an independent body that is created by private citizens, this includes the UK KC, to validate them as responsible breeders.

To address the dates used in my post with regards to huskies being fashionable in the 80's I may be wrong with the date. But in wales there was an explosion of huskies being handed into shelters in the early 90s and had direct experience of this due to my time served at an animal shelter during this period of time. Maybe it was a local issue I dont know, but typically a poor huskie would turn up on our door or brought by the local authority to be put to sleep as was the case for 3 poor examples, was becoming more and more frequent.

As far as my claiming that all pedegrees are sickly and un healthy animals, then I appologise. But I will clarify the fact that the majority of breeds that we know today and the standards they are bred to were created during the victorian age. Prior to the victorians people bred dogs randomly and it was the victorians desire to catagorise and standardise that defines the dogs you own today. From the time the victorians decided to do this, the dog breeds in question have all been inbred to some extent as the victorians didnt understand genetics and the issues of creating inbred dogs as we do today. What I do understand is that the breed standards laid down by the victorians and changed to suit the desired goal of a perfect specimen has caused significant health issues in certain breeds, which include heart problems, respiration issues, Glaucoma and spinal issues. Dog owners are advised to have their dogs jointed scored after the age of 18 months as the dogs bones are still forming prior to this time, but before the age of 2 as the dog will be young enough not for age to play a part in the malformation of a joint. The very fact that we have to check the dogs joints and score them is a direct result of inbreeding. ALL small breeds of dogs today are genetic aborations and are a direct result of inbreeding, this has been proven scientifically as the breeds all have the same active dwarfism gene in their genetic makup. This gene is in all dogs but humans selected dogs for breeding that actually had this gene turned on and the result is a dog that was not selected by nature but by man, the original designer dogs. I use a documentary recently shown on NatGeoWild called In the Womb: Dogs as a loose reference, which told the story of 4 breeds (one was a wolf) and how the pups develop during pregnancy, which I found very interesting. Out of the 4 breeds only 2 would give birth to pups in a natural way, the remaining 2 required aid from humans due to having major issues at whelping time are cannot give birth at all and require surgery to acheive the birth. It shocked me that the poor chuhuahua cannot give birth to its young, and before operations were performed, breeders used to kill the mother and cut them open to get the pups out!!

My dog has been scored but due to her being a cross between a Saarloos and Czech wolfdogs she is registered as a cross not pure breed, I dont claim her to be a pure breed, but her blood lines were.

Its very clear the Americans are the true source of the issue with direct wolf crossing, so just shoot any stupid american you come across, oh wait there may not be enough of them left and significant inbreeding will occur, oops!!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Wolfdog23 said:


> To all breeders that I may have affended in my post, I can only appologise if I have let the cat out of the bag about taking money for the dogs you breed is common place. Whilst many of you may be ethical and saintly about your breeds and how they are bred, to say taking money in exchange for a dog is typical in tranactions between breeder and dog owner is a valid one and does not condem you as breeders or as exploiting the dog.
> 
> About buying a pet, it is recomended by both the RSPCA and UK KC that potential dog owners go to a reputable breeder, preferably KC registered, but has never said dont get a dog from a breeder that takes money or breeds a more than a certain number of dogs a year. They do this because they recognise that dog breeders operate as a business, vat registered or not. To limit the selection of breeders that just give dogs away, only breed from a single dog only once in the dogs life and are KC registered and perform the health checks such as DNA and joint scoring would result in very few breeders (if any) and a reduction in available dog breeds for people to select from. I personally thing all breeders should be far more heavily regulated by law, not just able to meet the terms set down by an independent body that is created by private citizens, this includes the UK KC, to validate them as responsible breeders.
> 
> ...


I haven't got time to read all this and actually respond to every point, to be honest, I'm getting past thinking it's actually worth it, absolute rubbish! If I bred dogs as a business I'd be chuffin' bankrupt, what a stupid thing to generalise all breeders of pedigrees the same way 

I know bugga all about sarloos or other FCI recognised breeds that may have derived from hybridising to wolves, my posts have been directed at direct hybridisation, which you seem to agree is wrong??

Dog joints and inbreeding?? I'm sorry, but I think you need to cancel your tv licence, chuck the thing out of the window and stand back a bit. Animals are born in the wild that are deformed too, they just don't survive typically. Animals also don't live long enough to develop many of the standard things we associate with old age, arthritis, HC etc. Just because you don't see an old animal with creaky joints and other ailments, doesn't mean they couldn't get to that stage if they lived long enough.

Whilst I'd agree that some breeds have developed issues down to breeding practices, to lump all pedigrees in that group, is just ignorant. You could very well breed a poor conformation from two very unrelated pedigrees that would develop all sorts of problems, to just state 'inbreeding' is the simplistic cause ridiculous.

There are all sorts of other factors in the health and development of domesticated animals, modern medical advances mean we can keep our pets with us for so much longer than before, and intervene with many injuries and illnesses that would simply have meant them being pts ten or twenty years ago. Sometimes I'm not sure where the line should be drawn these days, insurance means such a lot more can be done for our dogs, but I am cynical that this is always the best route.

Confused about your statement about your dog being a cross, but her bloodlines were pure??? How does this improve anything? Surely it doesn't make her any better or any worse than other dogs? I'd be interested to know what her scores were, I think one or two people have asked. I'll start, my Labrador bitch has 0/0 hips and elbows, and is genetically clear for pra and cnm, before I mate her (if I get round to puppy farming the one litter) I'll also have her bva eye cert renewed. And your scores?????


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

WCSRC Wolf-Hybrid information

BTW - 
to specify: this page refers to DIRECT recent infusions of wolf-ancestry within a few generations, 
NOT to domestic-dog breeds outcrossed a couple of times, 40 or 50 years ago.

wolf hybrid - Google Search


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## Samuul (Jan 11, 2012)

I realise this thread is old, but I had recently read the telegraph article concerned, then re-searched that and this came up. I'm really appalled by the majority of the posts so decided to register just to point a few things out. Wolfdog, as defined by DEFRA in their report commissioned by the government in 2000 ( I realise this is out of date but im using it as it is when they were still considered DWA ) A wolf hybrid was any dog with any percentage of wolf, so Sarloos, CWD. They fall into that category. The 2000 report says that these animals are still DWA, although it concedes that (opposed to the random 1 in 5 attacks number flying around here ) Pitbull, Rottweiler, German Shepherd, Husky's and Malamute's have all attacked more people. However DEFRA say the number attributed to wolfdogs is probably too high, as people think they have wolfdogs but actually just have domestic dogs bred to look like wolves. It's also worth pointing out, that DEFRA have written noone has been killed by a modern wolf in North America ( or something to that effect ) I Would argue that everyone on here writing, about idiots and chavs, and people who want to look gangster or whatever you want to say. To look hard as a status symbol. Could just as easily go out and buy a rottweiler. Yet there isn't an uproar about rottweilers being pets, i would suggest rather than make a prediction about the future of the wolfdog, maybe actually have a look at the dogs that are being overbred by people out to make money sold to the wrong people. IE staffys. Since the pitbull is illegal it seems like this is the new must have hard man dog. NOTHING AGAINST THE STAFFY. As they are lovely dogs, but surely this is a more significant breeding/social problem. As wolfdog 23 has said all along, modern dogs have been bred for thousands of years to get them the way you all want them. All the dogs you love have been bred to look a certain way. I'm assuming if you have a pedigree you made that choice on looks/temperament just because a wolf hybrid doesn't have the temperament you desire doesn't mean it is bad. You have, have to realise that your dogs werent just magically sent here to you. They are bred for purpose, the best looking dogs are chosen to breed to the other best looking dogs to get your dog. (If we're talking about pedigree) Also the mastiff types that have been bred for their large heads, and now can't be naturally delivered, and the chihuahaha(sp?) That is a travesty that is more of a travesty and a rape of nature than a wolf reproducing with a husky. Alaskans still to this day, let their sled dogs go and mate with wolves so as to produce a stronger dog and to strengthen blood lines. Wolves still want to mate with dogs, i would suggest it's no different than a labrador and a poodle. Even though your all trying to say it is, to put yourselves in the right. Who's to say the labrador isn't the craziest most aggressive labrador ever? As to the person who commented on Sarloo's being from 2 pairs of GSD'S and 2 Wolves or whatever, 3 puppies which were suitable were chosen then bred with GSD's then in the 1950's was wolves were bred back into it to strengthen and define the bloodline. I am so angry at all these posts, just because you have a labrador or some other pedigree doesn't mean you are any better than someone with a wolf hybrid for centuries millenia, and even now native settlements still use wolves and understand wolves. They are prized for their intelligence, according to DEFRA, the aggression in wolf hybrids is from the dog, as wolves - due to their pack structure are not inherintly aggressive and the aggression from any wolfdog will come from the dog part of the cross, because dogs have no fear of humans where as wolves will be more timid. I don't want a wolfdog because of status or showing it off around the street. I have an affinity for wolves, because of their intelligence I can appreciate intelligent animals, I don't need a robot programmed for thousands of years to sit and give paw. (Although I'd expect any wolfdog to do that) I just appreciate the fact that there is something different about wolves that isn't the big bad wolf image. 


BASICALLY EVERYONE GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT. IF THE GOVERNMENT SAYS ITS FINE ITS FINE. STAFFY'S ARE A BIGGER BREEDING PROBLEM. ROTTWEILERS ARE MORE DANGEROUS IN THE WRONG HANDS. ANY DOG IS DANGEROUS IN THE WRONG HANDS.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Your post is bad to read because you have no paragraphs 

So are you happy for joe average to own one of these dogs?


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Samuul said:


> I realise this thread is old, but I had recently read the telegraph article concerned, then re-searched that and this came up. I'm really appalled by the majority of the posts so decided to register just to point a few things out. Wolfdog, as defined by DEFRA in their report commissioned by the government in 2000 ( I realise this is out of date but im using it as it is when they were still considered DWA ) A wolf hybrid was any dog with any percentage of wolf, so Sarloos, CWD. They fall into that category. The 2000 report says that these animals are still DWA, although it concedes that (opposed to the random 1 in 5 attacks number flying around here ) Pitbull, Rottweiler, German Shepherd, Husky's and Malamute's have all attacked more people. However DEFRA say the number attributed to wolfdogs is probably too high, as people think they have wolfdogs but actually just have domestic dogs bred to look like wolves. It's also worth pointing out, that DEFRA have written noone has been killed by a modern wolf in North America ( or something to that effect ) I Would argue that everyone on here writing, about idiots and chavs, and people who want to look gangster or whatever you want to say. To look hard as a status symbol. Could just as easily go out and buy a rottweiler. Yet there isn't an uproar about rottweilers being pets, i would suggest rather than make a prediction about the future of the wolfdog, maybe actually have a look at the dogs that are being overbred by people out to make money sold to the wrong people. IE staffys. Since the pitbull is illegal it seems like this is the new must have hard man dog. NOTHING AGAINST THE STAFFY. As they are lovely dogs, but surely this is a more significant breeding/social problem. As wolfdog 23 has said all along, modern dogs have been bred for thousands of years to get them the way you all want them. All the dogs you love have been bred to look a certain way. I'm assuming if you have a pedigree you made that choice on looks/temperament just because a wolf hybrid doesn't have the temperament you desire doesn't mean it is bad. You have, have to realise that your dogs werent just magically sent here to you. They are bred for purpose, the best looking dogs are chosen to breed to the other best looking dogs to get your dog. (If we're talking about pedigree) Also the mastiff types that have been bred for their large heads, and now can't be naturally delivered, and the chihuahaha(sp?) That is a travesty that is more of a travesty and a rape of nature than a wolf reproducing with a husky. Alaskans still to this day, let their sled dogs go and mate with wolves so as to produce a stronger dog and to strengthen blood lines. Wolves still want to mate with dogs, i would suggest it's no different than a labrador and a poodle. Even though your all trying to say it is, to put yourselves in the right. Who's to say the labrador isn't the craziest most aggressive labrador ever? As to the person who commented on Sarloo's being from 2 pairs of GSD'S and 2 Wolves or whatever, 3 puppies which were suitable were chosen then bred with GSD's then in the 1950's was wolves were bred back into it to strengthen and define the bloodline. I am so angry at all these posts, just because you have a labrador or some other pedigree doesn't mean you are any better than someone with a wolf hybrid for centuries millenia, and even now native settlements still use wolves and understand wolves. They are prized for their intelligence, according to DEFRA, the aggression in wolf hybrids is from the dog, as wolves - due to their pack structure are not inherintly aggressive and the aggression from any wolfdog will come from the dog part of the cross, because dogs have no fear of humans where as wolves will be more timid. I don't want a wolfdog because of status or showing it off around the street. I have an affinity for wolves, because of their intelligence I can appreciate intelligent animals, I don't need a robot programmed for thousands of years to sit and give paw. (Although I'd expect any wolfdog to do that) I just appreciate the fact that there is something different about wolves that isn't the big bad wolf image.
> 
> BASICALLY EVERYONE GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT. IF THE GOVERNMENT SAYS ITS FINE ITS FINE. STAFFY'S ARE A BIGGER BREEDING PROBLEM. ROTTWEILERS ARE MORE DANGEROUS IN THE WRONG HANDS. ANY DOG IS DANGEROUS IN THE WRONG HANDS.


Please use paragraphs when you post. Thanks. Other than that i agree with what you are saying.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Samuul said:


> I realise this thread is old, but I had recently read the telegraph article concerned, then re-searched that and this came up. I'm really appalled by the majority of the posts so decided to register just to point a few things out. Wolfdog, as defined by DEFRA in their report commissioned by the government in 2000 ( I realise this is out of date but im using it as it is when they were still considered DWA ) A wolf hybrid was any dog with any percentage of wolf, so Sarloos, CWD. They fall into that category. The 2000 report says that these animals are still DWA, although it concedes that (opposed to the random 1 in 5 attacks number flying around here ) Pitbull, Rottweiler, German Shepherd, Husky's and Malamute's have all attacked more people. However DEFRA say the number attributed to wolfdogs is probably too high, as people think they have wolfdogs but actually just have domestic dogs bred to look like wolves. It's also worth pointing out, that DEFRA have written noone has been killed by a modern wolf in North America ( or something to that effect ) I Would argue that everyone on here writing, about idiots and chavs, and people who want to look gangster or whatever you want to say. To look hard as a status symbol. Could just as easily go out and buy a rottweiler. Yet there isn't an uproar about rottweilers being pets, i would suggest rather than make a prediction about the future of the wolfdog, maybe actually have a look at the dogs that are being overbred by people out to make money sold to the wrong people. IE staffys. Since the pitbull is illegal it seems like this is the new must have hard man dog. NOTHING AGAINST THE STAFFY. As they are lovely dogs, but surely this is a more significant breeding/social problem. As wolfdog 23 has said all along, modern dogs have been bred for thousands of years to get them the way you all want them. All the dogs you love have been bred to look a certain way. I'm assuming if you have a pedigree you made that choice on looks/temperament just because a wolf hybrid doesn't have the temperament you desire doesn't mean it is bad. You have, have to realise that your dogs werent just magically sent here to you. They are bred for purpose, the best looking dogs are chosen to breed to the other best looking dogs to get your dog. (If we're talking about pedigree) Also the mastiff types that have been bred for their large heads, and now can't be naturally delivered, and the chihuahaha(sp?) That is a travesty that is more of a travesty and a rape of nature than a wolf reproducing with a husky. Alaskans still to this day, let their sled dogs go and mate with wolves so as to produce a stronger dog and to strengthen blood lines. Wolves still want to mate with dogs, i would suggest it's no different than a labrador and a poodle. Even though your all trying to say it is, to put yourselves in the right. Who's to say the labrador isn't the craziest most aggressive labrador ever? As to the person who commented on Sarloo's being from 2 pairs of GSD'S and 2 Wolves or whatever, 3 puppies which were suitable were chosen then bred with GSD's then in the 1950's was wolves were bred back into it to strengthen and define the bloodline. I am so angry at all these posts, just because you have a labrador or some other pedigree doesn't mean you are any better than someone with a wolf hybrid for centuries millenia, and even now native settlements still use wolves and understand wolves. They are prized for their intelligence, according to DEFRA, the aggression in wolf hybrids is from the dog, as wolves - due to their pack structure are not inherintly aggressive and the aggression from any wolfdog will come from the dog part of the cross, because dogs have no fear of humans where as wolves will be more timid. I don't want a wolfdog because of status or showing it off around the street. I have an affinity for wolves, because of their intelligence I can appreciate intelligent animals, I don't need a robot programmed for thousands of years to sit and give paw. (Although I'd expect any wolfdog to do that) I just appreciate the fact that there is something different about wolves that isn't the big bad wolf image.
> 
> BASICALLY EVERYONE GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT. IF THE GOVERNMENT SAYS ITS FINE ITS FINE. STAFFY'S ARE A BIGGER BREEDING PROBLEM. ROTTWEILERS ARE MORE DANGEROUS IN THE WRONG HANDS. ANY DOG IS DANGEROUS IN THE WRONG HANDS.


You're not a relative of Noushka are you?

If this is the only thread you've read on this forum, then you won't really have a good grasp of the sort of members that are on here generally. So as for judging *something* without knowing all the facts, I think you're guilty of that one already 

Dogs were not just bred for looks, but for purpose, some breeds still are, some are more based on a particular look, but many look the way they do to ensure they live long healthy lives. Personally, I'd rather wolves stay as wolves, and dogs stay as dogs, the more people muck about with wild animals, the more we mess up the eco system, and it's pretty messy as it is. The way things are going, we won't have true wolves if people start crossing them just because they want to own one as a pet, the more risk there is of those genes getting into wild populations. Same as with the Scottish wildcat, it's debateable whether we have a truly wild population in many areas as it is.


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## Obzocky (Jan 1, 2012)

Old thread bump, interesting.

My issue with wolf crosses is that people have difficulties interacting with robots programmed to sit and give their paw (seriously?) for thousands of years, let alone a highly intelligent creature which needs very special handling. Note I say special handling, it's just like how each particular "type" of dog requires special handling to get the most out of them, but the need is increased in a canine such as this.

I also do not particularly think the reference to Alaskan sled dogs as important. It's interesting, and there's a purpose, but these dogs have a job. The average joe who does own a wolf cross does not give them a job, they have them to say "I have a wolf cross". That's the attitude i've come across with many who own them. A few are true enthusiasts, they understand their dogs, but more do not. 

I also question the need to do this, to dilute the majesty of a wolf with these "robots", to reduce them to that. 

They can be fabulous animals, when handled correctly. Like every other dog. Just as terriers can be fabulous family pets should their owners understand them, just as a lot of difficult dogs can become amazing companions when the right owner comes along.

But there we go.

I haven't read all of the thread, since it's old and bumped for a reason, and by replying i'm just adding fuel to a fire that had died out long ago. Oh well.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Samuul said:


> ...DEFRA [says] the number [of bites / attacks] attributed to wolf-dogs [AKA hybrids] is probably too high,
> as people think they have wolf-dogs but actually just have domestic dogs bred to look like wolves.


the article wasn't about 'dogs who look like wolves' - an old-fashioned 1930s type GSD 'looks like' a wolf, 
an Inuit [invented breed] 'looks like' a wolf, a Saarloos [1950s outcross of domestic-dogs to wolves] 
'looks like' a wolf.

as i stated before: I am specifically discussing *wolf-hybrids who have a direct wolf-ancestor 
within the previous 3 generations: parent, grand- or great-grand-parent. Is that clear?* 

i personally did the math on the risk of a bite from a wolf-hybrid vs ANY dog, in the USA, using Federal stats.
despite the low-number of hybrids relative to dogs [approx 1.5 to 2% of a population of more than 70M], 
in the USA, a wolf-hybrid is over 11x as likely to bite than any other breed or mix of domestic-dog.


Samuul said:


> ...DEFRA have written no-one has been killed by a modern wolf in North America.


 - there has been *ONE DEATH* from a wolf-attack in North America, a woman in Canada was killed 
a few years ago; she was a singer, around 25 to 30-YO; killed in a park in eastern Canada. 
She has the distinction of being the only documented human killed by a wild wolf in North America.

- there have been very few attacks by wild-wolves in North America; i know of 2, one was rabid 
[he bit a railroad-employee in Canada, a brakeman i think, in the 1800s]; one was a wolf in a fight 
with a dog in someone's yard, also in Canada; the owner of the dog tried to separate the 2, he thought 
that the other animal was another dog - he was bitten in the melee, the wolf ran off.

- there have been MULTIPLE DEATHS from attacks by captive-wolves & wolf-hybrids.



Samuul said:


> Alaskans still to this day, let their sled dogs go & mate with wolves so as to produce a stronger dog
> and to strengthen blood lines.
> 
> Wolves still want to mate with dogs, i would suggest it's no different than a Labrador & a Poodle.


this is a myth; there are now & then accidental breedings, but they're rare, & the pups are not useful 
working-animals, since they lack the heftier muscle of sledding freight breeds [Sammy, Malamute, etc],
& the efficient smaller bodies of the speed-sledders [Alaskan Husky, Siberians, Laika, etc].

wolf-hybrids are also harder to handle, & don't blend well in a working team; they're leaner, taller, leggier, 
& with a lower muscle-mass ratio & more bone.

the odds of a wolf killing a roaming dog are high; even a domestic-bitch in estrus can be killed &/or eaten. 
wolves frequently kill, maim, cripple, or attack other wolves, when an outsider trespasses on turf - 
they deliberately seek-out & kill coyote, as well as fox - Why should domestic-dogs be tolerated? 
what makes them so 'special'?

coyote in some western-states are quite notorious for 'tolling' dogs, especially single dogs, 
out to "play" - then killing them. It's a sophisticated predatory tactic, very like the Nova Scotia Tollers 
& their 'tolling' of waterfowl to bring them within range of the hunter's guns.

_'White Fang_' was written as fiction, not fact. *Jack London* was a romantic, not a biologist or ethologist.
dogs who run-off to 'join' a wolf-pack don't generally live long-enuf to breed; they're usually dead in 
a matter of minutes.


Samuul said:


> ... even now native settlements still use wolves & understand wolves. They are prized for their intelligence.


 - 'native settlements' USE wolves for what? :blink:

- do they hitch them to sleds, harness them to travois, eat the pups? What?

so far as i know, the primary USE of wolves in the Arctic & sub-Arctic is as a source for fur to frame 
a parka-hood, as wolf-fur doesn't frost; the formation of frost & ice-crystals from one's breath is a problem, 
it makes seeing difficult & chills one's face when the crystals melt or touch skin; bits fall into one's collar, 
melt & re-freeze - hypothermia is a serious risk in weather that can include -60-degrees Fahrenheit, 
uncovered skin can freeze in minutes, & any chilling is potentially lethal to tissue or even one's life.

III.1: INUIT CLOTHING/SHELTER 1. Winter Clothing ~ People of the Arctic by John Tyman









synthetic [fake-fur] frame - 


















Samuul said:


> [A]ccording to DEFRA, the aggression in wolf-hybrids is from the dog, as wolves - due to their pack structure -
> are not [inherently - sic] aggressive & the aggression from any wolf-dog will come from the dog part of the cross,
> because dogs have no fear of humans whereas wolves [are] more timid.


then DEFRA is full of agricultural-effluent.

wolves are much-more aggressive AS A SPECIES than are dogs; yes, dogs are bolder around humans, 
but wolf-hybrids lack the deeply-entrenched timidity of a wild-wolf, since they are human-reared 
& human-habituated. Part of the purpose of domestication is to reduce the intensity & frequency of aggro; 
that's true if we discuss dogs, horses, chickens, goats, sheep, etc - all have had their wild-levels of aggro 
reduced to something more manageable, so that they can live in groups, injure one another less often, 
& are less-likely to injure their human caregivers.

Wolves fight a lot more often than dogs do; feel free to peruse the many videos of Monty Sloan, 
filmed at the captive-wolf facility in Wolf Park, USA.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I have not read all the replies so not sure what has been said BUT it is illegal to have a true wolf hybrid in this country. It there is wolf in them (cant remember but I think it is two generations but might be three back) they have to have a wild animal license and be kept like a wild animal. The 'wolf dogs' that abound probably have no wolf whatsoever in their ancestry.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Watching the programme I watched when posting this thread http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/197422-wolf-hybrids.html the dogs on there were half wolf and half Malamute in most cases. Was terribly sad to see the animal so confused and people simply unable to deal with it, just fencing it in when it's natural instincts were completely suppressed. A Malamute can be primal enough but cross it with a wolf - for what reason??? 

One of the saddest documentary's I have ever seen and all because of stupid wicked people who want to say they own a wolf dog!


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## Samuul (Jan 11, 2012)

Hi, thanks for the replies. Sorry about the paragraphs, didn't realise I'd typed so much. I just want to say I'm not necessarily talking about pure wolf crossed with dogs but any dog with close wolf heritage (sarloos CSW) just because that's how defra define it.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> - there has been *ONE DEATH* from a wolf-attack in North America, a woman in Canada was killed
> a few years ago; she was a singer, around 25 to 30-YO; killed in a park in eastern Canada.
> She has the distinction of being the only documented human killed by a wild wolf in North America.


I thought that death was put down to a pair of coyotes? 

Edited to add, I'm not sure all Canadians would be pleased at being part of North America, the same as English folk couldn't be described as Scottish.


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

I know someone who has a wolf hybrid apparently its half wolf half mal. I kind you not its nothing like a wolf it doesnt even look like it has much Mal init, More like a German shepard x utonagan/tamaskan 

i do know one chezch (sp) and one sarloo's both abit iffy dogs not ones i trust with my own or smaller dogs, but i think thats down to the owner not the actual dogs. I dont think these dogs are suitable for many people at all


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I thought that death was put down to a pair of coyotes?
> 
> Edited to add, I'm not sure all Canadians would be pleased at being part of North America, the same as English folk couldn't be described as Scottish.


But Canada is part of North America, that is the continent. England is not part of Scotland.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I thought that death was put down to a pair of coyotes?


no; Eastern-wolves are different than Western-wolves.

they are smaller, have markings which resemble the red-wolf of the Eastern USA, & are not the classic 
'grey' or timber-wolf of Western-Canada & Alaska, who can be anything from white to black, but most commonly 
come in shades of gray, with brown or black tipping on the guard-hair.


Sleeping_Lion said:


> ...I'm not sure all Canadians would be pleased at being part of North America,
> the same as English folk couldn't be described as Scottish.


NORTH AMERICA is a continent; unless Canada wants to move their land-mass to another of the 7, 
they are stuck with being 'North American'.  Brazil is a South American country; same concept.

Western Europe is a subset of Europe; Asia is an associated chunk of continent & islands. 
the UK is part of western-Europe; The British Isles include Britain, Ireland, Wales, Scotland...


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Read this sometwhere which is interesting:


> The term "wolf hybrid" is technically incorrect. In 1993, dogs were reclassified as a subspecies of wolf (Canis lupus familiarus). This means that wolves and dogs are the same species, and that "hybrid" is an inaccurate labeling.


Park ranger stated coyotes not wolves killed the singer, Canadian folk singer killed by coyotes, park official says - CNN

Interesting to note here in Germany we only recently had news about a Husky causing a severe injury. Does this mean they shouldn't be allowed by responsible owners? Wolfdogs do exist but I know one site lists them here as at least 8 generations removed from a wolf with full family trees common if not normal, (typical but can't find the site at the mo). Just when do they become "dogs" not wolves if you are breeding, not just for looks but specifically for "traits" with a view to having them as pets?

Like all living creatures responsible ownership is key.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

2009 - 
The Science Behind Algonquin's Animals - Research Projects - Eastern Wolf



> _ Eastern Wolves... are very small in size compared to the Gray Wolf (Canis lupus) living in
> the boreal forest north of Lake Superior in Ontario.
> 
> Unlike the Gray Wolf, *the Eastern Wolf in Algonquin Park has never been recorded with an all-black
> ...


what few Coyote actually enter Algonquin Park don't go deeper than the southern edge - & that's rare, 
since they're promptly either chased off, or run down & killed. I don't know where in the Park she died, 
but my impression was that it was the northeastern corner, near the Atlantic ocean, not the southern margin.

2007 - 
Ontario man killed in wolf attack, coroner's jury finds - Saskatchewan - CBC News



> _ Paul Paquet, an expert on wolf biology who studied the case for the coroner's office, told the inquest
> earlier in the week that it was more likely that a black bear killed Carnegie, although a wolf attack was also
> a possibility.
> He said he based his findings on all the evidence, including the way the body had been consumed & moved around.
> ...


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> You're not a relative of Noushka are you?
> 
> If this is the only thread you've read on this forum, then you won't really have a good grasp of the sort of members that are on here generally. So as for judging *something* without knowing all the facts, I think you're guilty of that one already
> 
> Dogs were not just bred for looks, but for purpose, some breeds still are, some are more based on a particular look, but many look the way they do to ensure they live long healthy lives. Personally, I'd rather wolves stay as wolves, and dogs stay as dogs, the more people muck about with wild animals, the more we mess up the eco system, and it's pretty messy as it is. The way things are going, we won't have true wolves if people start crossing them just because they want to own one as a pet, the more risk there is of those genes getting into wild populations. Same as with the Scottish wildcat, it's debateable whether we have a truly wild population in many areas as it is.


looking at Samuul's post...I dont think so SL LOL, infact its your post i completely agree with:001_tongue:

i love Wolves,and i will never ever agree with crossing them with dogs! for lots of reasons already mentioned in this old thread, one reason being hybrids have bitten a fair few humans, can you imagine if a loose hybrid attacked a human?... oh how the anti-wolf brigade would love it if they could pin the attack on a wolf.

If people truely care about these still maligned and misunderstood animals please check out the Howling for Justice blog to see how they are being mercilessly slaughtered! even the wolves in Yellowstone National Park are in jeopardy so please voice your protest to ensure the wolves survival and recovery in the wild where it belongs.

Howling For Justice

https://secure.defenders.org/site/A...9&s_src=3WDW1201AHTXX&s_subsrc=101411_web_hp1


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## skyblue (Sep 15, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> wolfapoo


am i the only one that chuckled at the thought?


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

Sorry if I'm asking something that's already been covered, I didn't have time to read all, but I read a lot.

Im wondering, though.....what is it someone craves in a pet canine that cannot be provided well enough by the plethora of dog breeds we already have? There are so many breeds, so many different personalities and traits, there is one to suit everyone. So what is it that a wolf provides that a domestic dog cannot?
From my knowledge of wolves, they are typically shy and timid; not qualities I would want in a pet. And thats without mentioning their destructive tendencies!

I have known people with hybrids, and all bar one (who got the dog as a rescue so didn't really 'choose' that animal, and he did not reccomend them) have had the attitude about them of 'yeah, I've got a wolf' *smug look* One girl was telling me how her uncle 'bred wolves as pets'. I was shocked, so asked what she meant, and she kinda muttered 'well, wolf hybrids, they're part GSD'. It was telling, to me, that her first instinct was to tell me about these pet 'wolves' and downplay the fact that they were part dog, almost as if she was only concerned with me knowing OMG WOLVES!

I love wolves, intensely. But it is the wildness of them that is part of their allure. It depresses me intensely to see these animals in captivity, even in relatively well run zoos and such. They just don't belong there, be it in a zoo or in someone's home. 
What is wrong with a normal dog? What are they unable to provide that a wolf could? Other than the ability for the owner to say 'I own a wolf'.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> no; Eastern-wolves are different than Western-wolves.
> 
> they are smaller, have markings which resemble the red-wolf of the Eastern USA, & are not the classic
> 'grey' or timber-wolf of Western-Canada & Alaska, who can be anything from white to black, but most commonly
> ...


Apols, but I think as Goblin's link to the news report shows, it is misleading, and does state that the singer was killed by coyotes.

I can vouch my Canadian relatives never say they live in North America


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I can vouch my Canadian relatives never say they live in North America


& if U had rels in Guatamala or El Salvador, would they be likely to say, _'i'm Central American"...?_ 
or simply, _'i'm Guatamalan',_ or _'i'm Salvadoran'..._?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Does an Englishman say they are European ? I also know several canadians. Saying they are anything to do with america is counted as a grave insult.


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