# Jasper's Progress.



## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

I'm sorry, this is going to be quite a long read.

I got a new pomeranian puppy called Jasper last Friday (Friday the 20th). He was 8 weeks and 4 days old at the time.

Some relevant background information: Jasper is very small. On the day I got him he was 353g. I was a bit surprised to discover that because the breeder told me he had been 355g at his health check on Monday the 16th so he hadn't grown for 4 days when I got him.

One of Jasper's brothers died at 6 weeks old. I believe the one that died stopped growing for a while before he died (but in the end he died of aspiration pneumonia). Jasper has stopped growing so I worry it could be something similar.

Jasper is also deaf, but that's not really relevant to this story.

When I was at the breeder's house to pick him up, Jasper did do a runny poo but the breeder said it was normal for a puppy. So, I guess on reflection his poos are not an issue

After a few hours with Jasper at home we were concerned that his poos were still runny so we took him to the vet. The vet thought he had diarrhea and prescribed pro-kolin.

The pro-kolin did not firm up his poos but other than that, everything seemed fine on Saturday. He was eating as much as he wanted five times a day (butternut box mixed with some royal canin mousse as per the breeder's instructions) so I assumed that all was well.

Early on Sunday morning, he was showing definite signs of hypoglycemia. We rubbed some of the syrup thst the breeder gave us on his gums and rushed him to the out of hours emergency vets who found that his glucose levels were very low. They gave him glucose by mouth and kept him in for all of Sunday and Sunday night. Although they fed him every two hours, he went hypoglycemic again with them. They thought he was stable so they let him go on Monday morning.

At Jasper's vet check up on Tuesday morning, his blood sugar had crashed to 1.1 although I had been feeding him as often as he would eat (I stayed up all night with him).

The vet referred Jasper to the Royal Veterinary College where he has been an inpatient since Tuesday. Despite hourly feedings, he kept going hypoglycemic with them, so he is on a glucose drip now but his blood sugar still keeps dropping and he has been reluctant to eat. He has also lost weight and is now 340g so very underweight. They have started feeding him every half hour now.

They have also been unable to clear up his diarrhea, which could be a contributing factor to his blood sugar drops. However like I said, the breeder says it's not diarrhoea so I don't know what to make of the vets' comments on it.

They don't yet know why this is happening. Some stool samples were taken by the out of hours emergency vets on Sunday but results from those tests won't come back until tomorrow due to the bank holiday.

He is too small for them to safely get out enough blood for a proper blood test. And they would have to sedate him in order to scan him which could be risky, given how small he is.

I don't know why this is happening. The breeder says he has never gone hypoglycemic before which makes me feel it must be something that I did. The only thing that occurs to me is his food. The breeder said he was eating the butternut box but to mix some puppy mousse in with it if he wouldn't eat it on its own. He wouldn't touch the butternut box by itself so I fed it to him mixed with the puppy mousse. I only learned recently (and when it was too late) that Jasper had only been switched onto the butternut box at the start of the week that I got him (the week before that he was on a mix of butternut box and puppy mousse but for most of his life eating solids he was on just puppy mousse), so I think he didn't like the butternut box and so wasn't eating enough, even when it was mixed with the puppy mousse. I just thought he had been eating it for weeks so I didn't think to feed him only the puppy mousse or to feed him a higher ratio of puppy mousse to butternut box. And I had no idea how much he should be eating as the breeder just said to let him eat as much as he wanted which I was doing. I feel like if only I had fed him exclusively the puppy mousse this wouldn't have happened.

Then again, I don't understand why he keeps going hypoglycemic even when he's eating frequently and has a drip in him. I guess maybe I set something off?

I have no illusions, I know that he will probably die and I'm absolutely devastated. I don't think thar I will ever have another dog because clearly I am incompetent. I don't know how I am going to live with myself after all this.

ETA: Now that Jasper is doing well and this thread is more positive, I thought I'd add in the pictures from Jasper's first night at home (before he unfortunately had to go to hospital) below:


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

So sorry to hear this I doubt it is the change of food please don't blame yourself. A change of food can upset the tummy but I have never heard of this reaction. You have done the right thing getting him to the vets. Do you know how the siblings are ?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> So sorry to hear this I doubt it is the change of food please don't blame yourself. A change of food can upset the tummy but I have never heard of this reaction. You have done the right thing getting him to the vets. Do you know how the siblings are ?


He had 3 brothers. To my knowledge, two are still alive but one of them did die at 6 weeks old. I believe the one that died stopped growing for a while before he died (but in the end he died of aspiration pneumonia). Jasper has stopped growing so I worry it could be something similar.


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

I am so sorry to hear you are going through this. 

Poor you and poor puppy.

I'm sure it is nothing you've done. I'm sorry to say it but I don't really trust the breeder.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

April Pearl said:


> He had 3 brothers. To my knowledge, two are still alive but one of them did die at 6 weeks old. I believe the one that died stopped growing for a while before he died (but in the end he died of aspiration pneumonia). Jasper has stopped growing so I worry it could be something similar.


How awful for you I really don't think it is fair the breeder blaming you.


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

I'm so sorry - it sounds like a heart breaking and worrying time for you.

I hope Jasper becomes stable - I wish there was more to say but he's in the best place, receiving care. He wouldn't be there receiving the care he needs if you were incompetent. Please don't blame yourself.

Obviously I'm likely assuming here but IMO a good ethical breeder wouldn't let a puppy go to a new home so small. Some toy breeders do keep puppies until 12 weeks, so they're stronger. I remember some of your first posts - you mentioned he was the runt of the litter and deaf, normally the small ones should catch up once they start eating solids rather than remaining very small. It's also a big issue with 'teacup' sizes - sadly it can be more common that puppies are simply too small and weak to survive.


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## Billbailey (Dec 22, 2019)

I agree with the other posters, I don't think it's anything you did. In fact, you've gone above and beyond for this puppy so don't blame yourself.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

I would trust the vet where Jasper is, and not what the breeder is saying, and echo above about the breeder. 

Currently Jasper is in the best place for him. 

As I said before on another of your threads, you haven't done anything wrong.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I really do not think you have done anything wrong except to get the poor puppy in the first place and give yourself so much heartache. Everything you have said about the breeder has screamed warnings at me. I am afraid you have been thoroughly done over and left with heartbreak and a massive bill. I am very sorry this happened to you. A good breeder would give you all your money back and possibly a bit more but my guess is this breeder will do nothing of the sort - not that it will help your situation really.

Just do not blame yourself, get angry in your thought against the breeder for talking rubbish to you. Of course runny poos are diarrahea, what the heck does she think they are! There might be different causes and it sounds as though the pup came from the breeder after the cause had taken hold and you were left in a very poor position with a sick puppy from the start. Personally I think a puppy that small should never be produced in the first place, it is not natural or correct and is highly unlikely to be viable.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

ShibaPup said:


> I'm so sorry - it sounds like a heart breaking and worrying time for you.
> 
> I hope Jasper becomes stable - I wish there was more to say but he's in the best place, receiving care. He wouldn't be there receiving the care he needs if you were incompetent. Please don't blame yourself.
> 
> Obviously I'm likely assuming here but IMO a good ethical breeder wouldn't let a puppy go to a new home so small. Some toy breeders do keep puppies until 12 weeks, so they're stronger. I remember some of your first posts - you mentioned he was the runt of the litter and deaf, normally the small ones should catch up once they start eating solids rather than remaining very small. It's also a big issue with 'teacup' sizes - sadly it can be more common that puppies are simply too small and weak to survive.


Thank you. I think on reflection he shouldn't have gone so small... But I thought because the breeder was letting him go it was ok. She is kennel club registered and really seems to care about her dogs.



Blitz said:


> I really do not think you have done anything wrong except to get the poor puppy in the first place and give yourself so much heartache. Everything you have said about the breeder has screamed warnings at me. I am afraid you have been thoroughly done over and left with heartbreak and a massive bill. I am very sorry this happened to you. A good breeder would give you all your money back and possibly a bit more but my guess is this breeder will do nothing of the sort - not that it will help your situation really.
> 
> Just do not blame yourself, get angry in your thought against the breeder for talking rubbish to you. Of course runny poos are diarrahea, what the heck does she think they are! There might be different causes and it sounds as though the pup came from the breeder after the cause had taken hold and you were left in a very poor position with a sick puppy from the start. Personally I think a puppy that small should never be produced in the first place, it is not natural or correct and is highly unlikely to be viable.


Thank you. Jasper did come with 5 weeks of free insurance so we are hoping that will cover most of it... But even if he didn't have any insurance, we'd have done the same. Once a pet enters our house they become a family member. I don't think we will get any sort of refund but that isn't top of my mind right now.

It is strange that he's so small because it's not as though his parents were both miniscule. His dad is 1.4kg and his mum is 2kg so both small but in the normal range for pomeranians. I put it down to the fact he is from a litter of 4, which is a big litter for pomeranians. We thought he was just a bit behind on growth and would make about 2kg as an adult.


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## adamantis (Mar 14, 2014)

"Early on Sunday morning, he was showing definite signs of hypoglycemia. We rubbed some of the syrup thst the breeder gave us on his gums and rushed him to the out of hours emergency vets who found that his glucose levels were very low."

Why did the breeder give you syrup? What did they say it was for?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

adamantis said:


> "Early on Sunday morning, he was showing definite signs of hypoglycemia. We rubbed some of the syrup thst the breeder gave us on his gums and rushed him to the out of hours emergency vets who found that his glucose levels were very low."
> 
> Why did the breeder give you syrup? What did they say it was for?


She didn't actually say what it was but she said "rub some of this on his gums if you think he has gone hypoglycemic". I did some googling and from what I have read it must be something like Karo syrup. I think it was meant as just a precaution though - she said he'd never been hypo before when she gave it to us.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> She didn't actually say what it was but she said "rub some of this on his gums if you think he has gone hypoglycemic". I did some googling and from what I have read it must be something like Karo syrup. I think it was meant as just a precaution though - she said he'd never been hypo before when she gave it to us.


I have never known a toy breeder to consider hypoglycemia, although toy breeds there is a correlation with hypoglycemia it's not common.

I don't get where kc registered makes a good breeder. There is no guarantee.. It helps but all it guarantees is known parentage: a family tree.

Pomeranians aren't usually suggested to leave their breeders by till 10 weeks old at the earliest, being a member of a breed club or following their protocol helps identify good breeders too.

Also, although white is recognised colour, its also a colour that unethical breeders are cashing in on top sadly. Go back 10 years or more, whites were not popular probably due to more risks to their health, now sites such as pets4homes which isn't really where good breeders advertise they are flooded with white poms.

Good Post @Blitz


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

It's not normal for a breeder to give you something in case the dog goes hypoglycemic. The breeder obviously knew something was up with the litter and yet still sold the pups with no real care for if they were healthy. I'd be contacting them now saying what's happened, asking for your money back for selling a sick dog, and contacting trading standards as well as the KC and council. Get them stopped as they will just continue to breed unhealthy dogs and more people will be put through the heartbreak you are going through. For your and the pup's sake I really hope he pulls through but please learn from this and make sure you don't buy from this sort of breeder again. Generally breeders breeding for tiny dogs and unusual colours aren't doing it to improve the breed. My boss breeds Miniature Pinschers and they generally don't go to their new home until 10 or 12 weeks as they are so tiny. 
I'm really sorry for you and your pup, but it never sounded like a good person to buy from.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

@April Pearl I've been following your posts, and I have to wholeheartedly agree with @Blitz that this breeder sounds like a real doozy 
I mentioned my doubts about this breeder selling you a deaf puppy to begin with, that with responsible breeding practices there is no need to produce deaf puppies, but didn't want to belabor the point and take away from a happy puppy thread. But the point still stands, and now with more and more information coming out it sounds like this breeder acted highly irresponsibly and unethically. From selling a small pup so young, with runny poos, to actually giving you syrup in case of hypoglycemia - they knew that was a possibility which makes me think he had had those issues before.

Please, please don't blame yourself. This is bad breeding practices, not bad ownership. Though you could save others the same heartache by following through and making sure the breeder has some sort of consequence.

I wish your poor little pup the best, and hope he gets through this.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

April Pearl said:


> clearly I am incompetent.


You are NOT incompetent. Your breeder has bred a litter of poor puppies. Your puppy is deaf. His brother died. Your puppy was moved on too soon - likely because the breeder knew there were problems. She clearly knew already he was sick so gave you syrup to rub on his gums - why, FFS - the proper route would be for her to take him to the vet, not give you a stopgap treatment. She has behaved appallingly and I would be getting in touch with the Kennel Club, the Local Authorities who license her, the RSPCA and perhaps even the police; or at least a solicitor for legal advice if you paid her money. Legally dogs are classified as property and what you have been sold is not fit for purpose so I think you have a decent case. Trevor Cooper at www.doglaw.co.uk can probably advise but please STOP blaming yourself and accept your only fault here is being emotionally attached.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Thank you everyone. I guess I just assumed that, when it comes to toy dogs, it’s normal protocol for breeders to give new owners something in case of hypoglycemia.

We met Jasper when he was 4.5 weeks old. During that first meeting he was very sleepy and wouldn’t be woken up. The breeder squirted some clear liquid into his mouth with some kind of syringe and said something like: “I have this in case they go hypoglycemic, but I’m using it to wake him up”. Whether or not the breeder realised it at the time, I suppose he could have been hypoglycemic then and that’s why it woke him up.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

April Pearl said:


> Thank you everyone. I guess I just assumed that, when it comes to toy dogs, it's normal protocol for breeders to give new owners something in case of hypoglycaemia.
> 
> We met Jasper when he was 4.5 weeks old. During that first meeting he was very sleepy and wouldn't be woken up. The breeder squirted some clear liquid into his mouth with some kind of syringe and said something like: "I have this in case they go hypoglycemic, but I'm using it to wake him up". Whether or not the breeder realised it at the time, I suppose he could have been hypoglycemic then and that's why it woke him up.


Either she didn't realize it and is ignorant to the point of neglect, or did realize it and told you a porkie to avoid you knowing how poorly the pup was. Personally I don't like either option.

I'm sorry but I think you're talking about a highly irresponsible, unethical breeder, and I hope you have the strength to pursue this legally so that breeders like these get the message that what they are doing is not okay.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

O2.0 said:


> ignorant to the point of neglect


 I think that is being generous and kind. If you knew a puppy needed glucose, I think you would also know it was very sick.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

April Pearl said:


> Thank you everyone. I guess I just assumed that, when it comes to toy dogs, it's normal protocol for breeders to give new owners something in case of hypoglycemia.
> 
> We met Jasper when he was 4.5 weeks old. During that first meeting he was very sleepy and wouldn't be woken up. The breeder squirted some clear liquid into his mouth with some kind of syringe and said something like: "I have this in case they go hypoglycemic, but I'm using it to wake him up". Whether or not the breeder realised it at the time, I suppose he could have been hypoglycemic then and that's why it woke him up.


Stop trying to make excuses for this dreadful breeder. Everything you say makes them sound worse and worse. Of course the breeder realised it, she was keeping the pup alive till she could find someone to buy the poor thing.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

@April Pearl
If the worst does happen and Jasper doesn't make it, please don't let this awful experience stand in the way of dog ownership.
look for an _accredited _breeder, a lively, inquisitive puppy and trust your instincts. I was devastated when my little dog died last year and really thought I could never put myself in that situation again , but our newest dog Bobby has brought us such joy and healing.
I realise it's premature to be talking about you getting another dog at the moment but you have intimated that you wouldn't trust yourself to care for one properly. I'm just trying to say that you would be a perfect dog owner, none of this situation suggests otherwise.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Absolutely @SusieRainbow

Think as @Blitz states the more that is said the more that should have been done by the breeder.

I think getting a puppy can be such a minefield, we have a sticky what to avoid. When it comes to toy breeds, 8 weeks is often far to young to leave mothers anyway. We see this as 'ok' I mean it's in the checklist for buying a puppy I wish it had a * saying with the exception of toy breeds who are slower to mature. Although regardless this puppy sounds 'ill' regardless and should have got veterinary treatment.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Hi there, I am so sorry for what you are going through. Having a new puppy is supposed to be an enjoyable time and nothing like what you are experiencing. The breeder really does sound awful and this is entirely her fault, not yours. It has nothing whatsoever to do with how much, or how little, puppy mousse you fed him. The fact that he has gone hypoglycemic whilst under veterinary care should tell you it is nothing to do with what you were doing with him.

I don't understand how the breeder can claim that it isn't diarrhea - of course it's diarrhea! Yes it is normal for pups to have a bit of a runny tum for a few days after going to a new home, but the breeder should not have let the pup go when it was already having diarrhea, particularly given his tiny size.

I really hope the Jasper pulls through, but please know that you have done nothing wrong. In fact, if he had gone to someone else he may have not made it this far even.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Duplicate post.


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## Agandl (Sep 30, 2015)

What a difficult and distressing time you have had

I do agree with the others who have posted that in no way should you see this as your fault, you seem to have taken exemplary care of this poor little pup :'(



> ... Jasper is very small. On the day I got him he was 353g. I was a bit surprised to discover that because the breeder told me he had been 355g at his health check on Monday the 16th so he hadn't grown for 4 days when I got him.
> 
> .... When I was at the breeder's house to pick him up, Jasper did do a runny poo but the breeder said it was normal for a puppy. So, I guess on reflection his poos are not an issue
> 
> ... Early on Sunday morning, he was showing definite signs of hypoglycemia. We rubbed some of the syrup thst the breeder gave us ... The breeder says he has never gone hypoglycemic before ....


First, I do think that the breeder with the history of loose stools and the weight loss (2gm may seem little but added to what should have been a weight gain imo makes it significant) should kept the puppy a little longer to be sure of what was going on before she let you take it

2ndly if the pup was never hypoglycaemic before why did the breeder give you the glucose - I'm not a breeder but have known a few and I'm pretty sure this is not a standard item in a puppy pack 

Also I think I read at some point this was an assured breeder - either way she needs to be informed of the problems but if she is an assured breeder I believe the KC keeps records of health problems in the pups of assured breeders - others may know more about this

Edit - here it is, I thought I'd seen it somewhere



April Pearl said:


> She is kennel club registered


I do hope the pup will survive - feel so sad for you


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Thank you @SusieRainbow that is so kind of you to say. I hope you're right and that one day I will be a good dog parent to another pup. I just feel so culpable right now.

@Agandl yes, the breeder is kennel club assured (that's what I meant when I said she was kennel club registered). She's also licensed with her council. I would never have gone to a breeder who wasn't kennel club assured and I thought that to become kennel club assured a breeder had to adhere to certain health and safety regulations which gave me confidence. I have let her know about what is going on with Jasper and she seems very upset - makes me feel quite guilty - and has reiterated that he never went hypoglycemic with her.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

April Pearl said:


> Thank you @SusieRainbow that is so kind of you to say. I hope you're right and that one day I will be a good dog parent to another pup. I just feel so culpable right now.
> 
> @Agandl yes, the breeder is kennel club assured (that's what I meant when I said she was kennel club registered). She's also licensed with her council. I would never have gone to a breeder who wasn't kennel club assured and I thought that to become kennel club assured a breeder had to adhere to certain health and safety regulations which gave me confidence. I have let her know about what is going on with Jasper and she seems very upset - makes me feel quite guilty - and has reiterated that he never went hypoglycemic with her.


Just doing some investigation work. Can I ask what area you bought the puppy from as I've looked on the KC website and there aren't any of the assured breeders in your area (or for a good stretch around) that are listed as having pups when yours would have been born.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

@Sairy I don't feel it is fair to give too much identifying information but the breeder is in [edited to delete place name]. She lives about an hour from me. She mostly advertises on Pets 4 Homes so may never have listed the pups on the KC website (plus all his littermates are sold now).


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

I know that she is a KC assured breeder because she is listed on the KC site as a KC assured breeder of pomeranians.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

April Pearl said:


> I know that she is a KC assured breeder because she is listed on the KC site as a KC assured breeder of pomeranians.


I have found one breeder but her litter of 5 was born on 12 November so if that is the litter your pup was far too young to leave its mother. It would only be 6 weeks.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Blitz said:


> I have found one breeder in ... but her litter of 5 was born on 12 November so if that is the litter your pup was far too young to leave its mother. It would only be 6 weeks.


That is the litter after Jasper's litter. She had a litter of 5 after Jasper and I have met them so it is not Jasper's litter. Please can you delete the place name from your post - I feel guilty about giving it out in the first place. Sorry I'm not having a go at you but I don't want the breeder to feel I am slandering them online.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Blitz said:


> I have found one breeder in Southampton but her litter of 5 was born on 12 November so if that is the litter your pup was far too young to leave its mother. It would only be 6 weeks.


Also she has a facebook page where she posts pictures of her dogs and she has posted pictures of Jasper's litter from their birth up to now and the dates tally with his being the age she claims.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

April Pearl said:


> Also she has a facebook page where she posts pictures of her dogs and she has posted pictures of Jasper's litter from their birth up to now and the dates tally with his being the age she claims.


I thought you said he was from a litter of 5. Her previous litter was only one pup and was born 10 September so would be a good bit older than your pup. I have not put the area, it was you that did that. I am not sure why you are trying to protect a breeder who has done you over so badly. Sorry, but if what you are saying is correct, she is a dreadful breeder and you should be reporting her to the council, the KC and trading standards.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Blitz said:


> I thought you said he was from a litter of 5. Her previous litter was only one pup and was born 10 September so would be a good bit older than your pup. I have not put the area, it was you that did that. I am not sure why you are trying to protect a breeder who has done you over so badly. Sorry, but if what you are saying is correct, she is a dreadful breeder and you should be reporting her to the council, the KC and trading standards.


No, he was feom a litter of 4. Her next litter, which was a few weeks younger, was a litter of 5. She doesn't advertise all her litters on the KC site. She mostly advertises on Pets 4 Homes and on her facebook page. Jasper's litter was never advertised on the KC site.

Will PM you.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Have you heard how your pup is doing today?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

If she registered a litter I think it automatically goes on that site. She is breeding an awful lot of litters , that is 3 in a couple of months, does not sound very good. I think I will back out of this as you seem unable to realise that she is a dreadful breeder who has done you in a massive way. These crooked breeders are very clever and convincing. You will not be the first or last to be done and no doubt no one will report her.

I do hope poor Jasper pulls through as you sound a lovely owner and he deserves to live with you.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Looks like she's basically a puppy farmer, hiding behind some sparkly gift bags. 
She's selling one of her dogs because she thinks she's too small to have more litters....along with a litter of "XXS puppies"
Oh, and a litter of French Bulldogs.

Good grief, I'm struggling to find a time where she hasn't had at least one litter being born


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

April Pearl said:


> We met Jasper when he was 4.5 weeks old. During that first meeting he was very sleepy and wouldn't be woken up. The breeder squirted some clear liquid into his mouth with some kind of syringe and said something like: "I have this in case they go hypoglycemic,* but I'm using it to wake him up*". Whether or not the breeder realised it at the time, I suppose he could have been hypoglycemic then and that's why it woke him up.


I am so sorry you (and Jasper) are going through this. The above comment and action alone however needs to be reported to the Kennel Club as this is not ethical practice and suggests she knew she was breeding pups that were too small to survive naturally. At 4.5 weeks a puppy should be happy and playful - they should not need a stimulant. I would suspect that Jaspers brother died at 6 weeks from untreated low blood sugar (faliure to thrive).

From my brief look on the KC site it appears she does advertise 'small size' Pomeranians which is rarely in the breeds best interest. There is no such thing as Teacup.

I am in agreement with the previous posts - this puppy was poorly to start with and came from an unethical breeder. I suspect they have duped the Kennel Club into giving them the Assured Breeder status by not declaring their actual breeding plans. Report them

J


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

The more you say about the breeder the more horrific this person sounds.

From your first posts - it was clear she's chasing money. She doesn't give two hoots about the puppies she produces.

Being KC registered and even assured means very little - KC is a registration body. I don't think much of the assured scheme at all.

Being council registered - basically means she's producing litters for profit. If you produce less than 3 litters per year and don't gain over £1000 profit, you don't need it.

Breeding rare colours and 'XXS' or 'Teacup' sizes - doesn't care about the health, only the money.

Breeding multiple breeds and, or nearly always having a litter - again purely profit, she can't devote her time to raising and socialising them correctly. The more litters she has - the more money she gets.

Honestly the first pictures you posted of Jasper - I thought he was tiny and didn't seem strong enough to leave his mum and siblings being a 'runt' isn't an excuse.
Giving you syrup to rub on his gums and using it during a visit - that's shocking. I thought the syrup was advice when the pup wasn't well - not that she actually gave it to you. So she knew but she didn't want the vet bill so kept him going until she found someone else to take on the responsibility - which is disgusting behaviour.

How many more puppies and dogs will suffer? It's not just about the puppies she produces but also the poor mothers who are no doubt repeatedly bred until they are of no use. Simply for money.
She does need reporting to trading standards, and the Kennel Club - KC have standards set by their assured scheme.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

May I just point out that the OP is already very anxious about her pup and we've already established that the pup's breeder has not followed best practise .
Can we now look towards supporting the OP in her current situation ?


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

This is a terribly sad story; I hope for a happy outcome for owner who is clearly devastated, and of course the pup. If there is a ray of light anywhere to be found in this sorry saga, it is that the pup came with insurance which should hopefully cover the treatment. My cat was at the Queen Mother Hospital in 2013: back then the bill was £1000 a day, so yes, insurance is vital in these cases. I hope he pulls through, poor little mite.


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## margy (Dec 9, 2018)

This is heartbreaking. I'm sorry for the pup and the poor owner who was no doubt looking forward to bringing the little pup home. I'm also angry at the way these breeders exploit dogs for their own financial gain.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Calvine said:


> This is a terribly sad story; I hope for a happy outcome for owner who is clearly devastated, and of course the pup. If there is a ray of light anywhere to be found in this sorry saga, it is that the pup came with insurance which should hopefully cover the treatment. My cat was at the Queen Mother Hospital in 2013: back then the bill was £1000 a day, so yes, insurance is vital in these cases. I hope he pulls through, poor littler mite.


He is in the Queen Mother Hospital at RVC so same place. It's definitely good that we do have the insurance as these things can get very expensive. I think there might be a limit to how much the insurance will pay out but I'm not sure.



SusieRainbow said:


> May I just point out that the OP is already very anxious about her pup and we've already established that the pup's breeder has not followed best practise .
> Can we now look towards supporting the OP in her current situation ?


Thank you.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

margy said:


> This is heartbreaking. I'm sorry for the pup and the poor owner who was no doubt looking forward to bringing the little pup home. I'm also angry at the way these breeders exploit dogs for their own financial gain.


Thank you. I was looking forward to it, we all were. It all turned into a bit of a nightmare really.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Nothing else to say except I hope the poor little mite is still fighting and gets back to you soon. You sound like a very caring owner, which he obviously deserves after such a rough start in life!


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

April Pearl said:


> He is in the Queen Mother Hospital at RVC so same place. It's definitely good that we do have the insurance as these things can get very expensive. I think there might be a limit to how much the insurance will pay out but I'm not sure.
> 
> Thank you.


Is it the 4 weeks free insurance? Or your own policy?

It should tell you on your paperwork - there will be a limit, with the PetPlan 4 weeks free policy it can either be £2,000 or £4,000 limit. It will also tell you your excess amount which I think is £100 on the 4 week free policy.

One thing you'll need to be aware of, you will need to take out a policy before those 4 weeks end to still be covered for the conditions he is being treated for now, otherwise they will be classed as a pre-existing condition and won't be covered by future insurance policies.

I think a lot of the polices have a 14 day wait until they'll cover for illness.

I'd always recommend a covered for life plan - they cover health conditions for the life of your dog up to the annual limit, which varies from £4,000-12,000 it's your choice. 
Annual policies will only cover new health conditions for 12 months before they are then excluded and no longer covered.


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

I hope this counts as supporting April as that really is my intention.
I don't have anything to add to the healthcare side as I'm not experienced in dog health issues, but I just want to say that people commenting on the history and the breeder is in no way implying that you should love your new family member any less <3


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Jasper’s fecal test results came back and he has parasites - giardia and possibly some others. This would explain why he kept going hypoglycemic and the runny poos. They are going to treat it and hopefully things improve from here on.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

April Pearl said:


> Jasper's fecal test results came back and he has parasites - giardia and possibly some others. This would explain why he kept going hypoglycemic and the runny poos. They are going to treat it and hopefully things improve from here on.


I am pleased for you that they have gotten to the bottom of it and fingers crossed that Jasper pulls through.

It seems that the breeder is now advertising the sire (Jasper's dad) for sale on Pets 4 Homes.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> Jasper's fecal test results came back and he has parasites - giardia and possibly some others. This would explain why he kept going hypoglycemic and the runny poos. They are going to treat it and hopefully things improve from here on.


That's so good you finally have a diagnosis ! Now praying he can be cured and recover, lots of healing vibes sent your way.xx


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> Jasper's fecal test results came back and he has parasites - giardia and possibly some others. This would explain why he kept going hypoglycemic and the runny poos. They are going to treat it and hopefully things improve from here on.


Sorry to hear that Jasper has parasites, but its good news that it's now known what is wrong, hopefully he will respond well to treatment and he will be home with you soon and you can start your life together properly.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Fingers crossed that this will be a turning point!!


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

April Pearl said:


> Jasper's fecal test results came back


 I remember you had some done before but were waiting for results which were delayed because of Christmas holiday? Are you still awaiting those results? Are these tests that were done by the hospital or a previous vet?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Calvine said:


> I remember you had some done before but were waiting for results which were delayed because of Christmas holiday? Are you still awaiting those results? Are these tests that were done by the hospital or a previous vet?


I think these were the results from the previous vet. The hospital told me about it but they have been in contact with the previous vet.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

April Pearl said:


> I think these were the results from the previous vet. The hospital told me about it but they have been in contact with the previous vet.


 Maybe let the breeder know the results; I doubt she had any tests done, and she needs to know, really.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Calvine said:


> Maybe let the breeder know the results; I doubt she had any tests done, and she needs to know, really.


I did let her know just now. She says none of her dogs have had giardia before but I don't see how he can have got it with us. He had diarrhoea even before we took him home and we took him to the vet within hours of having him as we were worried about the runny poos.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

April Pearl said:


> She says none of her dogs have had giardia before


OK: well, at least you have done the right thing and told her . . . . she may or may not be telling you the truth. Let's hope you see an improvement now!


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> I did let her know just now. She says none of her dogs have had giardia before but I don't see how he can have got it with us. He had diarrhoea even before we took him home and we took him to the vet within hours of having him as we were worried about the runny poos.


Honestly try not to worry what the breeder says.. I honestly think she's passing blame.

Giardia is common. If one puppy has it, I bet others will have too.

Please report this breeder. Most breeders would be letting owners of the litter ates know but with the breeders response I doubt this is happening.

The KC, the council and I am sure the vets will be questioning about the breeding practices of the breeder and will give you some guidance too.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

ShibaPup said:


> Is it the 4 weeks free insurance? Or your own policy?
> 
> It should tell you on your paperwork - there will be a limit, with the PetPlan 4 weeks free policy it can either be £2,000 or £4,000 limit. It will also tell you your excess amount which I think is £100 on the 4 week free policy.
> 
> ...


It is the 5 weeks free insurance. Checked and the limit is £4,000 and we have to pay 20%. Definitely going to go over £4,000. The breeder has not offered to help financially in any way though.

Will definitely be getting him life time insurance... We haven't yet because it feels a like this 5 week plan might be for his whole life time at this rate


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## PawsOnMe (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor little mite, hope now that they've gotten to the bottom of it he can now start to recover and grow stronger. X


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

I hope he is ok and gets home to you the boxers have crossed paws.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Thank you for all the well wishes. I’m still very concerned but hopefully this is a turning point.

I have a question though: Could Jasper have transmitted any parasites to me or my family (I would be the most likely since I was the ‘primary poop cleaner’ and I let him lick my face, yes also my lips)? I am not concerned for my own sake, but if Jasper does come home I don’t want to be responsible for transmitting parasites straight back to him! Can I take any pills as a preventative measure?


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

April Pearl said:


> I did let her know just now. She says none of her dogs have had giardia before but I don't see how he can have got it with us. He had diarrhoea even before we took him home and we took him to the vet within hours of having him as we were worried about the runny poos.


If the pups were allowed access to any longstanding water/ puddles/waterbowls that they could poop in/ if their water comes from a well/if they have a septic tank/if mum was possibly already infected but asymptomatic, etc. Then she may not know that they've had giardia, perhaps for quite a long time
Nothing you have done has caused this, and, everything you've done has been first class
Now you've informed the breeder, she should, but I doubt she will, inform the other owners of the litter
Lots of positive vibes heading his way and yours


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> Thank you for all the well wishes. I'm still very concerned but hopefully this is a turning point.
> 
> I have a question though: Could Jasper have transmitted any parasites to me or my family (I would be the most likely since I was the 'primary poop cleaner' and I let him lick my face, yes also my lips)? I am not concerned for my own sake, but if Jasper does come home I don't want to be responsible for transmitting parasites straight back to him! Can I take any pills as a preventative measure?


Many of us here, have possibly dealt with dogs with giardia, and have also had possibly licky dogs.. It's highly unlikely with basic hygiene practices which I am sure you will have adhered to, you will have passed giardia to yourself or any members of the household. Giardia is a zoonotic but not to the extentic of others that can really effect us as humans. The vets would already have made you aware of this, and question about treating other animals in your care.

Honestly giardia isn't rare per se but to have a dog so young affected, a dog puppy being treated and classed as hypoglycemic because toy dogs suffer, I can only emphasis that the dog breeder should have sought medical advice prior.


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## Agandl (Sep 30, 2015)

April Pearl said:


> .... I have a question though: Could Jasper have transmitted any parasites to me or my family (I would be the most likely since I was the 'primary poop cleaner' and I let him lick my face, yes also my lips)? I am not concerned for my own sake, but if Jasper does come home I don't want to be responsible for transmitting parasites straight back to him! Can I take any pills as a preventative measure?


Please discuss this possibility with your GP


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Agandl said:


> Please discuss this possibility with your GP


A vet would be able to tell the risk to humans just as much as a GP. Please leave the over stretched NHS, and GP services for those that need them. As I have already stated. Vets are quick to advise this same as they are if a person is bitten by their dog too.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

The type of giardia that affect dogs and cats is different than the type humans get. The risk of getting giardia from a pet dog or cat is very unlikely. Not impossible, but not likely.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> The type of giardia that affect dogs and cats is different than the type humans get. The risk of getting giardia from a pet dog or cat is very unlikely. Not impossible, but not likely.


Yep, which is why giardia that's nasty for humans is found via endoscopy biopsy as a rule and not in a poo sample like in dogs.. Says the person who's had several of them and they always check for giardia as protocol here in the UK or I presume its standard!


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## shirleystarr (Mar 22, 2009)

At least you know what is wrong and hopefully the little one will get better and be home with you soon


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

SusieRainbow said:


> May I just point out that the OP is already very anxious about her pup and we've already established that the pup's breeder has not followed best practise .
> Can we now look towards supporting the OP in her current situation ?


I agree but, the OP was clearly blaming herself for the problems with this pup in her OP.

Not unreasonable to point out that the abominable excuse for a Breeder is roundly to blame here.

Selling an underweight, sick, deaf pup is inexcusable.

The comments about the Breeder do have real value. If this poor pup doesn't survive, then the OP needs to be wary in future as to what standards to expect from a conscientious Breeder.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Rafa said:


> I agree but, the OP was clearly blaming herself for the problems with this pup in her OP.
> 
> Not unreasonable to point out that the abominable excuse for a Breeder is roundly to blame here.
> 
> ...


We're all agreed that the breeder has not followed good practise, to put it mildly, and the OP has been advised on how to find an ethical breeder should she be in a position to in the future.
Agreed - inexcusable behaviour.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

How is little Jasper doing now? Please keep us up to speed, @April Pearl, and hang on in there.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Burrowzig said:


> How is little Jasper doing now? Please keep us up to speed, @April Pearl, and hang on in there.


Thank you Burrowzig  the vet calls once a day around 12pm so I don't have any news yet - fingers crossed it's positive today and will update when I know more.

Also: thank you everyone who advised on the possibility of human infection from giardia. I did ask my gp about it and they say they wouldn't prescribe anything for me unless a stool sample came back positive for giardia. So, I may do some stool samples myself - unless Jasper dies in which case it does not matter to me whether or not I have giardia. I just worry in case he came home and I passed it back to him.

The cat had a check up today at the vets and we mentioned Jasper's condition. They say it isn't worth treating our cat unless he shows signs of getting sick (he and Jasper have not yet even physically touched). The vet also said the fact that Jasper was weaned at 3 weeks old may have made him more susceptible to coming down with illnesses/parasites because he only had three weeks worth of his mother's antibodies.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

April Pearl said:


> Thank you Burrowzig  the vet calls once a day around 12pm so I don't have any news yet - fingers crossed it's positive today and will update when I know more.
> 
> Also: thank you everyone who advised on the possibility of human infection from giardia. I did ask my gp about it and they say they wouldn't prescribe anything for me unless a stool sample came back positive for giardia. So, I may do some stool samples myself - unless Jasper dies in which case it does not matter to me whether or not I have giardia. I just worry in case he came home and I passed it back to him.
> 
> The cat had a check up today at the vets and we mentioned Jasper's condition. They say it isn't worth treating our cat unless he shows signs of getting sick (he and Jasper have not yet even physically touched). The vet also said the fact that Jasper was weaned at 3 weeks old may have made him more susceptible to coming down with illnesses/parasites because he only had three weeks worth of his mother's antibodies.


Are you saying he was completely weaned at 3 weeks. It is usual practice to start feeding solids at 3 weeks as a start to the weaning process but they still feed off the mother till at least 6 weeks and often still getting the odd feed just before going to a new home.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Blitz said:


> Are you saying he was completely weaned at 3 weeks. It is usual practice to start feeding solids at 3 weeks as a start to the weaning process but they still feed off the mother till at least 6 weeks and often still getting the odd feed just before going to a new home.


Pretty sure that the breeder told us he was completely weaned at 3 weeks but I am prepared to accept I could be mistaken.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Blitz said:


> Are you saying he was completely weaned at 3 weeks. It is usual practice to start feeding solids at 3 weeks as a start to the weaning process but they still feed off the mother till at least 6 weeks and often still getting the odd feed just before going to a new home.


I think it was because the pups were small and mum wasn't producing enough milk.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

RVC phoned a bit late today but it all sounds like good news! Jasper is eating though still only a liquid diet of convalescence (he is refusing solid foods) and he is still on a drip... BUT he has gained weight!!!! He’s now 385g. He will likely be at the RVC for a while still because he is on a 7 day treatment course. Starting to hope that he may get well and come home after all.

They are going to start reducing the amount of glucose he is getting through the drip so as to wean him off it and that concerns me but hopefully it’ll be ok.

He also has strongyle worms (think I spelled that right) as well as the giardia.


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> RVC phoned a bit late today but it all sounds like good news! Jasper is eating though still only a liquid diet of convalescence (he is refusing solid foods) and he is still on a drip... BUT he has gained weight!!!! He's now 385g. He will likely be at the RVC for a while still because he is on a 7 day treatment course. Starting to hope that he may get well and come home after all.
> 
> They are going to start reducing the amount of glucose he is getting through the drip so as to wean him off it and that concerns me but hopefully it'll be ok.
> 
> He also has strongyle worms (think I spelled that right) as well as the giardia.


That is good news, may he continue to gain weight and get stronger


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Don’t get me wrong I’m delighted that Jasper is improving but ugh I’ve been doing some research and strongyle worms sound nasty :Yuck:Yuck:Yuck now I’m envisaging them squirming around inside me too


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## shirleystarr (Mar 22, 2009)

None of this is your fault you are a good owner dont let anyone tell you different the fault is with the breeder checked her website and looks like a puppy farm to me did you see the parents of the pups at all


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

shirleystarr said:


> None of this is your fault you are a good owner dont let anyone tell you different the fault is with the breeder checked her website and looks like a puppy farm to me  did you see the parents of the pups at all


Yes I did meet both parents.


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> Don't get me wrong I'm delighted that Jasper is improving but ugh I've been doing some research and strongyle worms sound nasty :Yuck:Yuck:Yuck now I'm envisaging them squirming around inside me too


I know you said you've done some research so sorry if you already know this, but if the info I've found is about the right parasite, try not to worry, according to https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/strongyloides/gen_info/faqs.html strongyle worms infect via contact with contaminated soil, so for as long as you maintained good hygeine you should be OK. I understand the worry though.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

ForestWomble said:


> I know you said you've done some research so sorry if you already know this, but if the info I've found is about the right parasite, try not to worry, according to https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/strongyloides/gen_info/faqs.html strongyle worms infect via contact with contaminated soil, so for as long as you maintained good hygeine you should be OK. I understand the worry though.


Apparently you can also get infected if you ingest infected poo or by worms coming out of the anus burrowing into your skin- obviously I always washed my hands but still... And he slept on my pillow (pooed on it too)


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> Apparently you can also get infected if you ingest infected poo or by worms coming out of the anus burrowing into your skin- obviously I always washed my hands but still... And he slept on my pillow (pooed on it too)


I didn't know about the poo, but the bit about the anus was in the bit I linked too, but I think you have to already be infected for that. (might be wrong though)

It does say in the link to see a GP if you think you might have it and it can be detected via a stool sample, so for peace of mind I would suggest you do that.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

ForestWomble said:


> I didn't know about the poo, but the bit about the anus was in the bit I linked too, but I think you have to already be infected for that. (might be wrong though)
> 
> It does say in the link to see a GP if you think you might have it and it can be detected via a stool sample, so for peace of mind I would suggest you do that.


Oh sorry I'm out and on my phone. I'm going to talk to my gp.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Bit worried about how expensive this is all going to get. His initial stay in the emergency vets cost us £1000. He's been with RVC for 4 days now and I think he will probably be there for another week at least. @Calvine said it cost them £1000 a night for their cat to stay at RVC in 2013, so let's add 11 days in RVC for Jasper at £11,000 and we get a total of £12,000 (!!!). That's not including the vet appointments he has had and the cost of the glucose tests etc with them.

The insurance Jasper came with will pay out a total of £4,000. That leaves us still having spent £8,000 even if nothing else goes wrong.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

I still think the breeder should be shouldering the responsibility as the puppy was clearly sick before you got him. Trevor Cooper at www.doglaw.co.uk might be able to help you.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Am sure the worms you are talking about, most of here refer to them as round worms.

If the mother had been wormed during pregnancy/lactation cannot remember what is protocol but breeders here will clarify this, then the puppy wormed at intervals from approximately 2 weeks old it is very unlikely the puppy would have worms. Again, poor breeding practices, and probably animal husbandry as a whole to be honest. Can't see any dogs in their care getting the basics.

There has been many people though that have come here and have unwittingly bought puppies with heavy worm burdens and again not had to worry about being at risk themselves so much. 

I would honestly stop reading Google.. Start making proper head way on ways forward to help Jasper by going forward and looking into how to report this breeder. Be proactive rather than look at the worse case scenario about your own health etc. Again, worms in young puppies aren't uncommon sadly due to unethical breeder, yes they can cause problems. Jasper is in the best place. If you are worried about costs, then you really need to be proactive now.


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## Dog-dogs (Aug 5, 2019)

April Pearl said:


> Bit worried about how expensive this is all going to get. His initial stay in the emergency vets cost us £1000. He's been with RVC for 4 days now and I think he will probably be there for another week at least. @Calvine said it cost them £1000 a night for their cat to stay at RVC in 2013, so let's add 11 days in RVC for Jasper at £11,000 and we get a total of £12,000 (!!!). That's not including the vet appointments he has had and the cost of the glucose tests etc with them.
> 
> The insurance Jasper came with will pay out a total of £4,000. That leaves us still having spent £8,000 even if nothing else goes wrong.


I'm sorry to read about the problems you've had, and glad Jasper seems to be getting better. Whilst everything is still fresh in your memory I would suggest concisely writing down everything, in bullet point form, from the very beginning - for example why you chose the breeder, was it because she is a KC Assured Registered Breeder. Then after speaking with your vet/s, and if you feel it warrants escalating, all the facts will be clearly laid out. Possible avenues to explore -> Kennel Club, Breed club/s, Local council, etc.

Additionally it would be worth checking Jasper's KC registration for some additional information: how old are his parents, + what is his inbreeding COI? [Are his parents young, is his COI higher than the breed average.] Both can be found on the Kennel Club website.

Best wishes to both you and Jasper


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

lullabydream said:


> Am sure the worms you are talking about, most of here refer to them as round worms.
> 
> If the mother had been wormed during pregnancy/lactation cannot remember what is protocol but breeders here will clarify this, then the puppy wormed at intervals from approximately 2 weeks old it is very unlikely the puppy would have worms. Again, poor breeding practices, and probably animal husbandry as a whole to be honest. Can't see any dogs in their care getting the basics.
> 
> ...


Sorry, didn't realise they were roundworms. Jasper's worming record says he was been worked by the breeder every two weeks since he was 2 weeks old so we never thought he'd have parasites.

I am not really worried about the consequences parasites might have on my health if I've contracted them. What I worry about is that if I have these parasites I might give them right back to Jasper, thereby making him very sick again. I think if this ever happens again it could kill him (I'm not even sure if he will survive this time to be honest).

Sorry I'm just quite anxious and upset right now. It's hard to think clearly about anything.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Dog-dogs said:


> I'm sorry to read about the problems you've had, and glad Jasper seems to be getting better. Whilst everything is still fresh in your memory I would suggest concisely writing down everything, in bullet point form, from the very beginning - for example why you chose the breeder, was it because she is a KC Assured Registered Breeder. Then after speaking with your vet/s, and if you feel it warrants escalating, all the facts will be clearly laid out. Possible avenues to explore -> Kennel Club, Breed club/s, Local council, etc.
> 
> Additionally it would be worth checking Jasper's KC registration for some additional information: how old are his parents, + what is his inbreeding COI? [Are his parents young, is his COI higher than the breed average.] Both can be found on the Kennel Club website.
> 
> Best wishes to both you and Jasper


I haven't checked on his KC registration for the ages of his parents etc but will do. I don't think he's the product of any inbreeding as his breeder purchased his parents from different breeders. But yes I can check those things.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> Sorry, didn't realise they were roundworms. Jasper's worming record says he was been worked by the breeder every two weeks since he was 2 weeks old so we never thought he'd have parasites.


Find this hard to believe to be honest...his mum would need to be wormed too..


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

April Pearl said:


> Bit worried about how expensive this is all going to get. His initial stay in the emergency vets cost us £1000. He's been with RVC for 4 days now and I think he will probably be there for another week at least. @Calvine said it cost them £1000 a night for their cat to stay at RVC in 2013, so let's add 11 days in RVC for Jasper at £11,000 and we get a total of £12,000 (!!!). That's not including the vet appointments he has had and the cost of the glucose tests etc with them.
> 
> The insurance Jasper came with will pay out a total of £4,000. That leaves us still having spent £8,000 even if nothing else goes wrong.


Staggering is the word. Indeed, £4000 insurance lasted four days; I do remember being staggered. And to be honest, I found them rather money-grabbing. For example, I arrived there and before he was seen by a vet or even registered, the first thing they did was inform me that they ''wanted half the cost in advance . . . like now''. I replied that I found this very odd: my own vet had not a clue what was wrong with him (which was why he referred him there) and as he was still in his carrier, they had also not examined him so had no idea, either, what was wrong with him or what the treatment would entail. She informed me that ''the treatment costs had been_ estimated_ at £3000''. I asked what treatments exactly would be involved and she decided not to argue any further as she clearly had no idea. I had visions of standing there all day arguing while the cat (still in his carrier and as yet unseen) got worse, so I gave them £1500 to shut them up. They put him in intensive care which upped the price quite a bit seem to recall. But yes, I do recall he was there for four nights and the bill was £4k. I paid the referring vet on top . . . that was not too bad, a few hundred as he clearly had not a clue what was going on and only had him for a couple of days. When I spoke to my own vet later and told him the cost, he simply said he was not one bit surprised. 
Anyway, sounds as if your little guy is doing well and I wish you and him well.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

April Pearl said:


> Sorry, didn't realise they were roundworms. Jasper's worming record says he was been worked by the breeder every two weeks since he was 2 weeks old so we never thought he'd have parasites


Most dogs have a latent form of roundworms in their muscles. The hormone changes in pregnancy waken them and they pass to the puppy foetuses via the placentas. Therefore the mother has to be wormed during pregnancy, and the pups every couple of weeks once born to get rid of all stages, so if the mum wasn't wormed at the appropriate intervals during her pregnancy, her pups will be born with worms. Worming afterwards can still leave the pup infested, and if there are early stages of the worms, or stages not in the gut, they aren't hit by the wormer but will move to the gut and do their wormy business once in there.
Most dogs can have some worm burden but be unaffected - their immune systems keep on top of it. A weak one, or one with compromised immunity, can quickly be overwhelmed and as the worms are essentially stealing the dog's food, the whole thing can escalate.
Does the worming record say which product was used?
As for yourself, there's an over-the-counter wormer for humans which I think does roundworms - actually a couple of options. It certainly does threadworms - have used it myself for that. I work as a gardener so can all too easily pick up soil-borne worm eggs. Can't remember what it's called, but just ask the pharmacist. Around 50% of adults have worms at some point in their lives, some with symptoms, some without. There's no shame in it.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

lullabydream said:


> Find this hard to believe to be honest...his mum would need to be wormed too..





Burrowzig said:


> Most dogs have a latent form of roundworms in their muscles. The hormone changes in pregnancy waken them and they pass to the puppy foetuses via the placentas. Therefore the mother has to be wormed during pregnancy, and the pups every couple of weeks once born to get rid of all stages, so if the mum wasn't wormed at the appropriate intervals during her pregnancy, her pups will be born with worms. Worming afterwards can still leave the pup infested, and if there are early stages of the worms, or stages not in the gut, they aren't hit by the wormer but will move to the gut and do their wormy business once in there.
> Most dogs can have some worm burden but be unaffected - their immune systems keep on top of it. A weak one, or one with compromised immunity, can quickly be overwhelmed and as the worms are essentially stealing the dog's food, the whole thing can escalate.
> Does the worming record say which product was used?
> As for yourself, there's an over-the-counter wormer for humans which I think does roundworms - actually a couple of options. It certainly does threadworms - have used it myself for that. I work as a gardener so can all too easily pick up soil-borne worm eggs. Can't remember what it's called, but just ask the pharmacist. Around 50% of adults have worms at some point in their lives, some with symptoms, some without. There's no shame in it.


Maybe mum was not wormed then. I didn't ask about that. On Jasper's worming record it says he was treated with panacur.

Will have a look into getting an OTC wormer for myself and my family.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

April Pearl said:


> he was treated with panacur


That's the one that I used for both bitch and pups when I had a litter. It's a good one, but doesn't do tapeworm. You'll have to see what the vets have been using before starting a new worming regime.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Calvine said:


> Staggering is the word. Indeed, £4000 insurance lasted four days; I do remember being staggered. And to be honest, I found them rather money-grabbing. For example, I arrived there and before he was seen by a vet or even registered, the first thing they did was inform me that they ''wanted half the cost in advance . . . like now''. I replied that I found this very odd: my own vet had not a clue what was wrong with him (which was why he referred him there) and as he was still in his carrier, they had also not examined him so had no idea, either, what was wrong with him or what the treatment would entail. She informed me that ''the treatment costs had been_ estimated_ at £3000''. I asked what treatments exactly would be involved and she decided not to argue any further as she clearly had no idea. I had visions of standing there all day arguing while the cat (still in his carrier and as yet unseen) got worse, so I gave them £1500 to shut them up. They put him in intensive care which upped the price quite a bit seem to recall. But yes, I do recall he was there for four nights and the bill was £4k. I paid the referring vet on top . . . that was not too bad, a few hundred as he clearly had not a clue what was going on and only had him for a couple of days. When I spoke to my own vet later and told him the cost, he simply said he was not one bit surprised.
> Anyway, sounds as if your little guy is doing well and I wish you and him well.


They wanted a deposit from us too. Their initial estimate for Jasper's treatment was £3,000 - £4,000, but that was if he only stayed from Tuesday until Friday. It's Sunday and he is still in there now, could be for a while more.

We are going to find out just how much the bill is so far already and how much more they estimate it will be. I am scared because there will soon come a point when we can no longer afford to keep him in there.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

April Pearl said:


> They wanted a deposit from us too. Their initial estimate for Jasper's treatment was £3,000 - £4,000, but that was if he only stayed from Tuesday until Friday. It's Sunday and he is still in there now, could be for a while more.
> 
> We are going to find out just how much the bill is so far already and how much more they estimate it will be. I am scared because there will soon come a point when we can no longer afford to keep him in there.


Have you updated the breeder on what is happening and if so then what has she said?


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

April Pearl said:


> there will soon come a point when we can no longer afford to keep him in there.


Have you spoken to the breeder? She should never have sold the puppy in its condition so she really should be covering the cost.

ETA - cross posted with @Sairy


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Sairy said:


> Have you updated the breeder on what is happening and if so then what has she said?





JoanneF said:


> Have you spoken to the breeder? She should never have sold the puppy in its condition so she really should be covering the cost.
> 
> ETA - cross posted with @Sairy


Yes the breeder knows. She hasn't offered to cover anything.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

I'm afraid I'd be pushing harder than just looking for an offer from her. In case you missed my earlier post, Trevor Cooper at www.doglaw.co.uk may be able to help.

In law, pets are treated the same as buying a car or a tv. If you had bought something like that, and it fell apart as soon as you got it home, you would contact the seller and expect them to take responsibility. It should be no different for Jasper.


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

Will you be reporting the breeder to trading standards, the local council she's licensed with or the kennel club?


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

April Pearl said:


> They wanted a deposit from us too. Their initial estimate for Jasper's treatment was £3,000 - £4,000, but that was if he only stayed from Tuesday until Friday. It's Sunday and he is still in there now, could be for a while more.
> 
> We are going to find out just how much the bill is so far already and how much more they estimate it will be. I am scared because there will soon come a point when we can no longer afford to keep him in there.


Maybe find out exactly what they are doing now, speak to your own vet and see if he thinks that Jasper could now be moved back and treatment taken over by your own practice. Typical that this sort of thing always happens at a weekend or holiday . . . if the blood results had not been delayed because of the holiday, it might have been a different (and much cheaper) outcome. A thousand a day really is a lot, but when you walk in there it's like going into the Grosvenor House Hotel isn't it! Ask them for a daily update on the cost?


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

April Pearl said:


> Yes the breeder knows. She hasn't offered to cover anything.


Ask the hospital to send her a bill. You know her address.

EDIT: And definitely speak to Dog Law, and as I suggested before contact the Council as this may affect their breeding licence, Trading Standards because you've been sold something that wasn't as advertised, and the KC as she's an assured breeder.


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## karenmc (Feb 3, 2018)

I'm pleased to hear that Jasper is improving through you acting so quickly to get him the treatment he needed. I'm so sorry you have had to go through this as welcoming a puppy into your family should be a wonderful experience. I wonder if, as a member suggested Jasper's treatment could be continued through your vet now if they have been able to diagnose the problem. This might reduce the mounting costs a bit. Also as @JoanneF said, you could make some enquiries to see if the breeder could be held accountable for at least some of the treatment costs. Hoping he continues to recover and is home with you very soon.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Do be aware too that if the problem has been caused by a worm burden then the insurance might well not pay anything as they will consider it was a pre existing condition. It is lucky for Jasper that you can consider spending that sort of money on him. I would have a serious and urgent word with the hospital and ask about costs and say you cannot afford it. Also discuss whether he actually is going to make a full recovery because the last thing you want is to run up a massive bill for no good reason. Make sure you go to trading standards too as they might be able to help out and get money off the breeder. She is selling so many puppies she counts as a business so with luck they can proceed against her. I wonder if she is paying tax, you could report her to HMRC as I bet she is not.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Thank you everyone for your advice. I do appreciate it all. RVC have told us that it is costing about £200-300 a day for Jasper to stay with them since they haven’t really done many tests, so while the bill is going to be toppy it’s not as bad as we had feared. I think we’re going to focus on getting Jasper well again above anything else.

Spoke to the vets today and apparently Jasper has been taken off the drip so they are going to monitor him and see how he does with that. He’s lost some weight (now 371g) which isn’t so good but he’s still eating and his poos are looking more formed.

Hopefully all goes to plan.


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

Has your breeder contacted you at all to ask after puppy or is it you initiating contact? I think from reading your updates she is not a great breeder and if she had any conscience she would have offered you a contribution to your vet bills, she fact she hasn't is very telling. I do so hope Jasper continues to improve.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

MontyMaude said:


> Has your breeder contacted you at all to ask after puppy or is it you initiating contact? I think from reading your updates she is not a great breeder and if she had any conscience she would have offered you a contribution to your vet bills, she fact she hasn't is very telling. I do so hope Jasper continues to improve.


She did contact me the day after we got Jasper to check everything was ok. Other than that I initiated contact but we really hadn't had him very long before all this happened.

I think she is hoping that the insurance will cover the vet bill. I'm not sure it will entirely cover it but I hope it will go most of the way. The insurance maxes out at £4,000. Jasper's stay at the out of hours emergency vets was about £1000 and (including today) Jasper has spent 5 days at RVC at about £300 a night (although the 24th was apparently extra - £500) which means that so far RVC has cost around £2,000. Overall then we are at about £3,000 (not including the cost of his various other vet appointments). If he doesn't have to stay much longer at RVC we might get everything back from insurance.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Jasper never pooped on any of the carpets or other floors but we want to make sure that we get rid of all parasite eggs if there are any so that if he gets home he won’t be re-infected.

Is there any cleaner we can use on our floors (especially carpets as he was mostly on carpeted areas) to kill parasite eggs?


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

April Pearl said:


> She did contact me the day after we got Jasper to check everything was ok. Other than that I initiated contact but we really hadn't had him very long before all this happened.
> 
> I think she is hoping that the insurance will cover the vet bill. I'm not sure it will entirely cover it but I hope it will go most of the way. The insurance maxes out at £4,000. Jasper's stay at the out of hours emergency vets was about £1000 and (including today) Jasper has spent 5 days at RVC at about £300 a night (although the 24th was apparently extra - £500) which means that so far RVC has cost around £2,000. Overall then we are at about £3,000 (not including the cost of his various other vet appointments). If he doesn't have to stay much longer at RVC we might get everything back from insurance.


Have you been in contact with the insurance company? I'm sure they will pay but make sure you have read the terms and conditions and if there was any exclusion periods. Even if they do pay, surely she would offer to pay the excess, if she is a decent human being.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

MontyMaude said:


> Have you been in contact with the insurance company? I'm sure they will pay but make sure you have read the terms and conditions and if there was any exclusion periods. Even if they do pay, surely she would offer to pay the excess, if she is a decent human being.


We've sent off claims to the insurance company but not heard anything back yet. Will have a better look at the terms and conditions. We'll need to have a chat with her if the insurance doesn't cover everything.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

I wouldn't be relying on the insurance. What if he gets sick later in the year, and you have used up your £4000?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

JoanneF said:


> I wouldn't be relying on the insurance. What if he gets sick later in the year, and you have used up your £4000?


Yes, that's a concern. The £4,000 is with the 5 weeks of free insurance that he came with though so we are hoping to get him properly insured.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

I’d check the terms and conditions. PetPlan’s cover only starts immediately for injury. For illness it starts 14 days after the cover starts. You will also find that he has a load of exclusions now for any further cover.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Jobeth said:


> I'd check the terms and conditions. PetPlan's cover only starts immediately for injury. For illness it starts 14 days after the cover starts. You will also find that he has a load of exclusions now for any further cover.


Oh no...

ETA: Oh, but it's the Kennel Club's insurance, not PetPlan


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

Jobeth said:


> I'd check the terms and conditions. PetPlan's cover only starts immediately for injury. For illness it starts 14 days after the cover starts. You will also find that he has a load of exclusions now for any further cover.


It depends on the company, PetPlan are normally quite good - if a policy is taken out before the free policy ends, they won't be considered pre-existing conditions  There is often a 14 day wait until the cover for illness starts for most polices though.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

April Pearl said:


> Oh no...
> 
> ETA: Oh, but it's the Kennel Club's insurance, not PetPlan


That's good as they cover for both illness and injury straight away. Hopefully he will be home soon.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Jobeth said:


> That's good as they cover for both illness and injury straight away. Hopefully he will be home soon.


That's a relief!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I've got a nasty feeling the insurance could go either way on this one as there's little doubt the condition will pre-exist the policy. I don't know the details of KC insurance but I think the OP should ready themselves for a battle with the breeder over covering this expense.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

havoc said:


> I've got a nasty feeling the insurance could go either way on this one as there's little doubt the condition will pre-exist the policy. I don't know the details of KC insurance but I think the OP should ready themselves for a battle with the breeder over covering this expense.


Oh god I hope not


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I hope not too but I think you should be prepared - you know that 'hope for the best but plan for the worst' mentality. Normal puppy worming protocols with products such as Panacur 'should' have gone a long way to dealing with this before it became a critical issue. It isn't normal for routine worming to be done at the vets however, if a breeder can show they at least purchased the product (or similar) and kept records on using it then they will have some defence. It's the sort of information I'd expect a breeder to give new owners as a matter of course.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Sarah H said:


> Ask the hospital to send her a bill. You know her address.
> 
> EDIT: And definitely speak to Dog Law, and as I suggested before contact the Council as this may affect their breeding licence, Trading Standards because you've been sold something that wasn't as advertised, and the KC as she's an assured breeder.


 Nice idea, but the hospital will want their money before Jasper is discharged I'm guessing. She really should be offering something towards his treatment; she knew he wasn't well enough to leave.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Calvine said:


> Nice idea, but the hospital will want their money before Jasper is discharged


And they'll want it from the person who contracted with them to provide treatment because that's the person who owes it.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Calvine said:


> the hospital will want their money before Jasper is discharged.





havoc said:


> And they'll want it from the person who contracted with them to provide treatment because that's the person who owes it.


Yes, if the insurance won't cover us then we will have to pay - we're not going to refuse to pay and leave Jasper in hospital!

Fortunately we can pay, but it is a lot of money so I still hope that the insurance will come through with the £4,000. If they won't then I will have to have a talk with the breeder. If she won't help in any way, then other avenues may need to be explored but we're not quite there yet.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Sorry if this is repeating something already said.
Have you notified the breeder that you puppy is very unwell since you bought him and has been at the vets receiving expensive treatment ?
I hope he's doing ok.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

I hate to say this and worry you more, but even with worms a puppy shouldn't be as ill as Jasper has been. With his small size as well, smaller than the other litter members who would have been subject to the same worm burden, there's a possibility of something else behind it all, possibly an endocrine disorder leading to malabsorbtion, and weakened immunity. We know he has one genetic condition - the deafness. There could be something else too.
A few years ago a friend got a border collie puppy from one of the kennels that produces some good sheep trials and agility dogs. he too was smaller than his litter siblings, and it turned out that he has a genetic condition IGS where is body is unable to use and store vitamin B12 normally. He has to have monthly injections of it for life, but never reached the size he should have.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Beth78 said:


> Sorry if this is repeating something already said.
> Have you notified the breeder that you puppy is very unwell since you bought him and has been at the vets receiving expensive treatment ?
> I hope he's doing ok.


Yes, I have. Thank you, haven't heard anything yet today but they usually call between 12 and 1:30.



Burrowzig said:


> I hate to say this and worry you more, but even with worms a puppy shouldn't be as ill as Jasper has been. With his small size as well, smaller than the other litter members who would have been subject to the same worm burden, there's a possibility of something else behind it all, possibly an endocrine disorder leading to malabsorbtion, and weakened immunity. We know he has one genetic condition - the deafness. There could be something else too.
> A few years ago a friend got a border collie puppy from one of the kennels that produces some good sheep trials and agility dogs. he too was smaller than his litter siblings, and it turned out that he has a genetic condition IGS where is body is unable to use and store vitamin B12 normally. He has to have monthly injections of it for life, but never reached the size he should have.


I'm so worried that there could be something else like a liver shunt (he has many of the symptoms: born small, hypoglycemic, trouble growing) but I really hope that it was just the parasites causing the problems. The thing is that it could be difficult/risky to extract the amount of blood they would need to do a blood test for liver function etc and scans would probably require sedation (again, could be dangerous at his size and in his weakened state) and may not be readable anyway as he is so small.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I really feel for you and I hope my posts didn’t come across as abrupt. I don't mean them to but I don’t think we’d be doing you any favours dishing out empty sympathy. When push comes to shove it’s all going to depend on the insurers. If they indemnify you that’s great, if not because they deem it a pre-existing condition then that’s the basis of your case against the breeder. 

I know all you care about at the moment is the pup. That’s understandable and laudable. However, you don’t deserve this and I’d urge you to get angry enough to seek help in recovering any losses.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

havoc said:


> I really feel for you and I hope my posts didn't come across as abrupt. I don't mean them to but I don't think we'd be doing you any favours dishing out empty sympathy. When push comes to shove it's all going to depend on the insurers. If they indemnify you that's great, if not because they deem it a pre-existing condition then that's the basis of your case against the breeder.
> 
> I know all you care about at the moment is the pup. That's understandable and laudable. However, you don't deserve this and I'd urge you to get angry enough to seek help in recovering any losses.


Thanks. No, you are just being helpful. It's good to be prepared for the worst and if things go badly with insurance/the veterinary fees exceed the amount that insurance will pay then we will have to have a conversation with the breeder about money.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Another update from the vets this afternoon. He is acting fine and eating. I have asked the vets if they could try to do an ultrasound of his liver without sedating him and they are going to discuss it and get back to me.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Gosh this is going to sound hopelessly callous, but I really hope they do some diagnostics soon. I'm a little worried that he might have internal abnormalities that are causing his issues and that can't be fixed. Then you'll be faced with a massive bill for a puppy who wasn't going to survive anyway. 
If it were me I would be insisting on further testing...

I really hope he does survive, but I would really hate for him to have been put through all of this, and you to have been put through this expense for nothing.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

O2.0 said:


> Gosh this is going to sound hopelessly callous, but I really hope they do some diagnostics soon. I'm a little worried that he might have internal abnormalities that are causing his issues and that can't be fixed. Then you'll be faced with a massive bill for a puppy who wasn't going to survive anyway.
> If it were me I would be insisting on further testing...
> 
> I really hope he does survive, but I would really hate for him to have been put through all of this, and you to have been put through this expense for nothing.


I hope they do too but it sounds as though there's not much they can/will do. They keep telling me that they can't do most blood tests because they can't get out enough blood and even just now when I asked for an ultrasound they were very much saying "oh we'll think about it". I'm just over here thinking: isn't this my choice? I'm paying you for this! I want to make sure he doesn't die immediately upon coming home.

ETA: I did insist on the ultrasound in my last phone call but despite my insisting they still might not do it. And I can't insist on blood tests as they just can't do them!


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

I don't know if anybody has posted this yet but it puts it all in one place; these people seem to be doing a good job against the odds.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

It's good to see all that info in one place. Unfortunately treating a puppy just like any other consumer goods restricts the new owner to act in a given manner too and this may put them at a disadvantage. If you buy a fridge and it goes wrong you have rights but they don't include unilaterally spending way more than the original price on a repair and then billing the place you bought it from. You can reject the item and get your money back - you don't get to keep both. There's an emotional investment in a living creature which doesn't happen with other purchases and makes the whole situation much more complicated but that isn't catered for in consumer law. That's why I urge the OP to seek professional advice sooner rather than later. I'd hate for them inadvertently to ruin any chance of recovering something from this mess.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Well RVC called and they say they aren’t going to do an ultrasound because he is just so small that the scan would be unreadable. And they can’t do any liver blood tests because those need too much blood. So basically, there’s no more diagnostics that can be done right now.

I’m really worried though because obviously he had another low glucose reading this morning and he’s still 370g so the same as yesterday.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

On the plus side apparently they just did a glucose reading and it was 7 so maybe the 1.6 earlier was a false reading after all, especially since he is apparently eating and acting much better.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Poor boy. Sounds like the vets are just waiting to see if he rallies on his own as he is likely too small and frail to survive any kind of interventions.
Shame they cant do any blood tests but I suppose they could tell if he had any jaundice from his eye color and his urine (to a certain extent). Hope he starts to pick up soon.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

I can't understand why he's too small? Yes he's small puppy, but then other animals can be smaller which need care too, operations, blood taken etc

It's weird how they are focusing on hypoglycemia to be honest. Although toy dogs are susceptible, all studies that I am sure vets are aware of akin hypoglycemia in toy breeds, they link it to extreme dog athletes so whilst it can happen and does its not actually common. 

Worm burdens often cause anaemia in puppies.. Am actually surprised this hasn't been mentioned I know this first, well second hand from friends who have got puppies with a heavy worm burden both small puppies too, not as small as Jasper. 

As he's on just 'pallative' type care and not being 'investigated I am surprised he's not been released to his own vet for this.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

lullabydream said:


> I can't understand why he's too small? Yes he's small puppy, but then other animals can be smaller which need care too, operations, blood taken etc
> 
> It's weird how they are focusing on hypoglycemia to be honest. Although toy dogs are susceptible, all studies that I am sure vets are aware of akin hypoglycemia in toy breeds, they link it to extreme dog athletes so whilst it can happen and does its not actually common.
> 
> ...


The gist seems to be that it would be pointless to scan him because his liver and blood vessels would be too small to see on the scan if there was a shunt. They said he could have a scan in two months time as he should be bigger then.

Honestly it's been very frustrating going back and forth with them asking to do more tests and then refusing.

They don't see any need to do any particular blood tests (although I have suggested liver function blood tests) because they don't think he has a liver shunt (or anything similar) - they think the problem was just the parasites.

And they say (although they could do it) it's difficult to get enough blood out because of the size of his veins and also every little bit of blood is important for him. Since he is quite wriggly now because he is feeling better they may have to sedate him to get the right amount of blood out anyway and I do not want him sedated if it can be avoided (have had an underweight pet die under anesthesia before).

Basically they think doing blood tests could do more harm than good and would be unnecessary since he seems to be improving (eating better, active etc) anyway. They are working on the assumption it was just the parasites causing the issue.

ETA: now he is off the drip they are just monitoring him to check he's not going to go straight downhill again, which is why he hasn't been discharged yet (he only came off the drip yesterday). Assuming he continues to do fine we might get him back tomorrow or the next day.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

April Pearl said:


> The gist seems to be that it would be pointless to scan him because his liver and blood vessels would be too small to see on the scan if there was a shunt. They said he could have a scan in two months time as he should be bigger then.
> 
> Honestly it's been very frustrating going back and forth with them asking to do more tests and then refusing.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure I understand how a worm load could cause hypoglycemia, but granted, my understanding of of hypoglycemia in dogs is nonexistent and my experience with worm loads pretty minimal. We've had wormy puppies, treat 'em and move on. Never had one super sick from worms.

Also not understanding how they can't see anything on a scan? This is specialist care no? There are tiny animals that get scanned all the time...??


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> The gist seems to be that it would be pointless to scan him because his liver and blood vessels would be too small to see on the scan if there was a shunt.
> 
> Honestly it's been very frustrating going back and forth with them asking to do more tests and then refusing.
> 
> ...


If it's parasites I honestly think that the breeder must be at fault.. Have never known any dog to be wormed 2 weekly from 2 weeks, I thought the protocol was 2, 5 and 8 going with growth more than anything.

Most here who have had worm burdens in puppies is because the breeder hasn't wormed the puppies correctly and their mother...

As I say, worm burdens in puppies must be a bit like vets bread and butter to treat, and they must know the risk is anaemia.

Plus of course giardia isn't a good sign either. Which the breeder again tried to claim loose poo is normal, it's not at all. It's also not a sign of a liver shunt.

Personally I wouldn't be worried about a liver shunt now. I don't know why this was considered. From what you say, apart from Jasper being small, to me he's not being symptomatic and I would bet my house that the vets would spot a liver shunt issue easily, especially as he's turned a corner so quickly. Which he has in reality if they say he's lively. Considering the title of this thread, he's done amazingly well.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

O2.0 said:


> I'm not sure I understand how a worm load could cause hypoglycemia, but granted, my understanding of of hypoglycemia in dogs is nonexistent and my experience with worm loads pretty minimal. We've had wormy puppies, treat 'em and move on. Never had one super sick from worms.
> 
> Also not understanding how they can't see anything on a scan? This is specialist care no? There are tiny animals that get scanned all the time...??


I'm no expert but I think from what they said that parasites could have been stopping him digesting food properly/getting the glucose he needed from it. I don't know but they seem to think it would explain things, I am not a vet.

Yes we'll I don't understand either but there's no use arguing with me over it because again, I am not a vet and I can only repeat what they have told me. They say they would be unable to interpret the scan. I asked them to do a scan and they refused.

If you're feeling frustrated, please understand that I am feeling even more so.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

lullabydream said:


> If it's parasites I honestly think that the breeder must be at fault.. Have never known any dog to be wormed 2 weekly from 2 weeks, I thought the protocol was 2, 5 and 8 going with growth more than anything.
> 
> Most here who have had worm burdens in puppies is because the breeder hasn't wormed the puppies correctly and their mother...
> 
> ...


Jasper's worming record does say he was wormed every 2 weeks from 2 weeks old but obviously I can't prove this was done, or that the mother was wormed either.

Yeah the vets keep saying he doesn't seem as though he has a liver shunt. I guess I just got it into my head that he might from the googling I have been doing because it seems to be a cause of hypoglycemia and also of slow growth. But then again, intestinal parasites are also a cause of both hypoglycemia and of slow growth as well as loose stools.

He does sound as though he's doing a lot better from what the vets have said. So, I am hoping that the parasites were the only issue as the vets have been suggesting to me today. Maybe I am just worrying too much.


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## Billbailey (Dec 22, 2019)

It's perfectly normal that you would be worrying. It's really hard when pets are ill cos they can't tell you what hurts or when they feel better. But from what you've said, I would go with what the vets say as they are the ones that are with him all day and seeing the changes in him. And I agree, the change from your first post is amazing. He's a tough little puppy and you have been his own miracle with what you've done. Pat yourself on the back for it and don't beat yourself up for worrying.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

April Pearl said:


> Yes we'll I don't understand either but there's no use arguing with me over it because again, I am not a vet and I can only repeat what they have told me. They say they would be unable to interpret the scan. I asked them to do a scan and they refused.


Oh no, sorry, wasn't arguing with you at all, just confused, as I'm sure you are!


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Billbailey said:


> It's perfectly normal that you would be worrying. It's really hard when pets are ill cos they can't tell you what hurts or when they feel better. But from what you've said, I would go with what the vets say as they are the ones that are with him all day and seeing the changes in him. And I agree, the change from your first post is amazing. He's a tough little puppy and you have been his own miracle with what you've done. Pat yourself on the back for it and don't beat yourself up for worrying.


Thank you. Honestly if he makes it he's a little miracle himself. When he collapsed with us within 48 hours of having him home I honestly thought it was curtains for him.



O2.0 said:


> Oh no, sorry, wasn't arguing with you at all, just confused, as I'm sure you are!


Yeah it confuses me to no end. I thought they were going to do all sorts of tests on him and now they're telling me they can't/won't and it's aggravating. Sorry, I guess I am just annoyed because you have the same questions as me and I really have no good answers. But I suppose the vets also think he doesn't need these additional tests and that in itself is a good sign.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I will join the confused group. I am sure the vets know what they are doing but if he needed a scan I cant see why he could not have one. After all unborn embryos show up on a scan ok. Again maybe the vets do not consider a blood test useful but as he has been on a drip he must have had a canula in so they could have removed the drip and taken blood at any time. They must be doing regular blood sugar levels in any case so must be getting a certain amount of blood regularly. Fingers crossed for him.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Blitz said:


> I will join the confused group. I am sure the vets know what they are doing but if he needed a scan I cant see why he could not have one. After all unborn embryos show up on a scan ok. Again maybe the vets do not consider a blood test useful but as he has been on a drip he must have had a canula in so they could have removed the drip and taken blood at any time. They must be doing regular blood sugar levels in any case so must be getting a certain amount of blood regularly. Fingers crossed for him.


They said his liver and blood vessels will be too small to see if he has a shunt. Yes, I know they do embryos. I really can't say whether this is true or not but they basically have told me they won't scan him and they think he doesn't have a liver shunt and is doing well anyway so they don't think he needs a scan now.

Same for blood tests, they think he's doing better and parasites are to blame so he doesn't need any particular blood work done. And they seem to think it would be difficult to get out enough blood. Interesting point about the canula - you must be right on that one. Still, I have honestly tried asking for more blood tests and they won't do them.

They only need a tiny pinprick of blood to test his blood glucose but would need 1-2ml for a proper blood test. They don't seem to be testing the blood glucose much today actually, he only had it tested twice. I think they're working on the assumption that he is acting well now so his blood glucose will be fine. Before when he was hypo he was lethargic and refusing to eat etc.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I can understand why they’re being cautious. I bred cats, not dogs, and I’ve only slowly come to realise just how small he is. At around 375g he’s the size/weight of a three to four week old kitten. With a kitten of that size I would have accepted there are limitations.


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## amplecrumlin (Oct 16, 2017)

I have been following this thread, and the one before it where you introduced the little deaf puppy. Like everyone else, I so hope that Jasper recovers. It sounds like you did everything right in looking for a good breeder and have had enormous bad luck with how things have turned out.

Re Jasper being too small, don't forget that they aren't simply scanning "the puppy", they are scanning "the layout of blood vessels within the liver of the puppy" which is a whole different scale of tiny. Unless they have confidence that they can see and interpret something meaningful, it would just be a waste of time and money to do it.
It would be like looking at a photograph where you can recognise who it is, but there is not enough resolution to read the newspaper that they are holding.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

havoc said:


> I can understand why they're being cautious. I bred cats, not dogs, and I've only slowly come to realise just how small he is. At around 375g he's the size/weight of a three to four week old kitten. With a kitten of that size I would have accepted there are limitations.


Yes he is teeny. He was 10 weeks old yesterday and still about 370g which is kind of worrying actually. I hope he has grown today. You're probably right that his size does bring limitations with it. It's just difficult when you want them to check everything and they keep saying 'no'!


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

amplecrumlin said:


> I have been following this thread, and the one before it where you introduced the little deaf puppy. Like everyone else, I so hope that Jasper recovers. It sounds like you did everything right in looking for a good breeder and have had enormous bad luck with how things have turned out.
> 
> Re Jasper being too small, don't forget that they aren't simply scanning "the puppy", they are scanning "blood vessels within the liver of the puppy" which is a whole different scale of tiny. Unless they have confidence that they can see something meaningful, it would just be a waste of time and money to do it.
> It's a bit like taking a photograph where you see just enough detail to recognise who it is, but not enough detail to recognise whether they have cut their nails lately...


Thank you, I appreciate your well wishes for Jasper. What you say seems to be what they were saying regarding the scan. I guess it's a little frustrating because I can't help but think 'but maybe if you tried you would see something after all', but they are experienced in this and I'm not so at the end of the day I just have to accept what they say.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

lullabydream said:


> Have never known any dog to be wormed 2 weekly from 2 weeks, I thought the protocol was 2, 5 and 8 going with growth more than anything.


The regime with Panacur (which is what the breeder said she used) is to worm the bitch 0.5ml per 4kg of body weight daily, starting at day 40 and for 2 days post whelping. Pups should then be wormed at 2 and 5 weeks at the rate of 0.5ml per kg of body weight daily for 3 consecutive days, then again before leaving the breeder. It says treatment may also be required at 8 and 12 weeks.
As Panacur is added to the food, a pup being pushed off a communal dish could miss out on their correct dose. With my litter, they had one dish each from the start of weaning. I didn't want them competing for food at any point in their lives. The idea from the start was that their food was theirs and no-one was going to take it off them.
That this breeder says she was using a worming regime that contradicts the manufacturer's advice only lowers them further in my estimation (if that is possible), and makes me wonder if they did any worming at all.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Burrowzig said:


> The regime with Panacur (which is what the breeder said she used) is to worm the bitch 0.5ml per 4kg of body weight daily, starting at day 40 and for 2 days post whelping. Pups should then be wormed at 2 and 5 weeks at the rate of 0.5ml per kg of body weight daily for 3 consecutive days, then again before leaving the breeder. It says treatment may also be required at 8 and 12 weeks.
> As Panacur is added to the food, a pup being pushed off a communal dish could miss out on their correct dose. With my litter, they had one dish each from the start of weaning. I didn't want them competing for food at any point in their lives. The idea from the start was that their food was theirs and no-one was going to take it off them.
> That this breeder says she was using a worming regime that contradicts the manufacturer's advice only lowers them further in my estimation (if that is possible), and makes me wonder if they did any worming at all.


But worming always used to be every 2 weeks , in fact I did not know panacur recommendations had changed. You put it down their throats, or I always have done, then you are sure each pup has had the right dose. Not sure how it would work putting it in the food.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Blitz said:


> But worming always used to be every 2 weeks , in fact I did not know panacur recommendations had changed. You put it down their throats, or I always have done, then you are sure each pup has had the right dose. Not sure how it would work putting it in the food.


I have the package in front of me. For the 2 week dose, I did put it in their throats as they weren't eating, but afterwards mixed it in the food which they never seemed to notice. And they ate the lot, greedy little things that they were.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Blitz said:


> You put it down their throats, or I always have done, then you are sure each pup has had the right dose.


That's how I always did it with kittens. Not exactly a fun job but I could never have guaranteed correct dosage mixing it with food. I was always very happy when kittens were big/old enough for something like Milbemax - a single pill doesn't carry the same risk of the room left looking like a Jackson Pollock painting after dosing a large litter


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Burrowzig said:


> I have the package in front of me.


Just to satisfy my curiosity could you have a look at the dosing instructions for Giardia. My (far from infallible) memory is telling me it used to be a separate instruction for a longer period and it's been driving me mad that I can't be sure. I'm not saying the breeder was necessarily wrong in not treating specially for it - why would you if it's not diagnosed.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

havoc said:


> Just to satisfy my curiosity could you have a look at the dosing instructions for Giardia. My (far from infallible) memory is telling me it used to be a separate instruction for a longer period and it's been driving me mad that I can't be sure. I'm not saying the breeder was necessarily wrong in not treating specially for it - why would you if it's not diagnosed.


Giardia was in adult dogs with panacur, a dose daily for 3 days.. Then repeat after 2 weeks.. Unless its changed but that's what I got advised to do with my dog with colitis as it was worth a shot and she needed worming


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

lullabydream said:


> Giardia was in adult dogs with panacur, a dose daily for 3 days


Thank you. For some reason I'd got it in my head that it was listed separately and was a five day regime with the half dose. Maybe it was listed that way for adult dogs which differs from their norm hence my adding days on but is exactly how you'd dose puppies anyway.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

havoc said:


> Just to satisfy my curiosity could you have a look at the dosing instructions for Giardia. My (far from infallible) memory is telling me it used to be a separate instruction for a longer period and it's been driving me mad that I can't be sure. I'm not saying the breeder was necessarily wrong in not treating specially for it - why would you if it's not diagnosed.


1ml per 2kg daily for 3 consecutive days.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

lullabydream said:


> Giardia was in adult dogs with panacur, a dose daily for 3 days.. Then repeat after 2 weeks.. Unless its changed but that's what I got advised to do with my dog with colitis as it was worth a shot and she needed worming


The dose per kg is different though.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Jasper is coming home tomorrow morning! I’m so happy, honestly thought he was a goner when we had to bring him in to to hospital on Christmas Eve.

Apparently he’s 390g now so has gained weight, his glucose has been normal and he is lively and happy to eat. Big turnaround.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Oh that's wonderful news, you must be excited to see him again.


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

Fantastic news!

Brilliant start to the New Year.


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## margy (Dec 9, 2018)

Good news, you must be so relieved. Looking forward to some photos when he gets settled.


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## Kittynanna (Feb 15, 2015)

Lovely news, such a relief to actually get him back home.

Happy new year to you and little Jasper


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)




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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

So happy for you and the little guy!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

So happy he’s coming home well done for sticking with him. He will probably poop on your carpet as a thank you


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Fantastic news ! I'm delighted for you both, what a start to the New Year.xx


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Thank you everyone! Can't wait to see him again. I know this saved his life but I really hope that his time in hospital hasn't traumatised him.



Boxer123 said:


> So happy he's coming home well done for sticking with him. He will probably poop on your carpet as a thank you


Haha the carpet I just steam cleaned (to get rid of any parasites)!


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## karenmc (Feb 3, 2018)

That's fantastic news! What a lovely start to the New Year and well done you for everything you have done to help little Jasper. You have been through a terrible time, hopefully that will be behind you now and you can look forward to enjoying your lovely puppy.x


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## Charity (Apr 17, 2013)

Lovely news, what a great start to the New Year....its been an awful week for you and Jasper. Happy New Year .


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## amplecrumlin (Oct 16, 2017)

April Pearl said:


> Thank you everyone! Can't wait to see him again. I know this saved his life but I really hope that his time in hospital hasn't traumatised him.


As he has come this far, I suspect that he is a resilient little soul, ready to meet all that life throws his way!

Cooperative care is a big thing at the moment so if you do find him reluctant to let you touch or manipulate any part of him, you should be able to Google plenty of support and advice on how to overcome this with counterconditioning and desensitisation.

Very very best wishes for what is to come in 2020 and beyond ❤.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Just been catching up on this. Wonderful news! What a great way to start a New Year.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Great news! I bet you can't believe it.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Lovely to hear he's coming home. Hope it's all onwards and upwards from now on. 
And if you need a large pointy boot to wedge firmly into the breeder's fundament, I can sort one out, and would be more than happy to position it there on your behalf.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

We got him back today! He has been really good: active, eating etc. Also still very friendly so thankfully his stay in hospital didn’t scare him.

Ugh one thing happened a couple of hours ago. I don’t know if I’m just being overprotective but now I am really worried. I had just grabbed myself some lunch and walked into the room where Jasper was (in his playpen). While I was gone, Jasper had pooped on the floor. I live with my mum and I came back to find her cleaning up his poop whilst wearing the pair of rubber gloves that I KNOW she uses to wash toilets (she also keeps it in a box with the other ‘toilet cleaning’ implements - sponges etc). It’s usually me who cleans up any mess but I was out of the room momentarily on this one occasion. Jasper chews/licks everything and, sure enough, it looked as though he was licking one of the gloves.

I became very concerned because:

1. Those gloves have come into contact with a lot of chemicals - what if he got poisoned? My mum assures me that she always rinses them well with water but still...

2. I remain concerned that we might have caught Jasper’s parasites, which would then obviously be in our toilets. Since those gloves are used to clean toilets, what if they had parasite eggs on them? Again, my mum assures me the gloves were recently cleaned with bleach but even so.

3. Again, these gloves are used to wash toilets with! Who knows what other nasty germs could have been in the toilet and therefore on the gloves. Like I said, my mum claims to have washed them recently but that doesn’t make me feel much better.

4. Even though my mum said the gloves had been washed recently, I know they are kept in a box with other cleaning implements which are used in the toilets such as sponges and these may not have been so clean.

At this point, I am petrified he will get sick again because of this. I can’t believe she thought that it was a good idea... Now she is insisting that I’m overreacting but am I? I’ll admit that I may be more anxious than usual given that he was so ill but I also don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect some level of basic hygiene, especially around a little puppy who has been so sick!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

April Pearl said:


> At this point, I am petrified he will get sick again because of this. I can't believe she thought that it was a good idea... Now she is insisting that I'm overreacting but am I?


Yes  
Completely understandable given what he has been through, but yes, you are overreacting.

Puppies use their mouths to explore absolutely everything. If you're going to worry about everything his mouth touches, you're in for a very long and stressful puppyhood. 
Put that extra energy in to dealing with his shitty breeder and making sure they help you pay for all his medical care and don't put another family through this. And enjoy Jasper


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

O2.0 said:


> Yes
> Completely understandable given what he has been through, but yes, you are overreacting.
> 
> Puppies use their mouths to explore absolutely everything. If you're going to worry about everything his mouth touches, you're in for a very long and stressful puppyhood.
> Put that extra energy in to dealing with his shitty breeder and making sure they help you pay for all his medical care and don't put another family through this. And enjoy Jasper


Oh good, I needed to hear that. I've been so worried for this weeks that maybe I did overreact! Thank you. My mum is keen to report the breeder but at the very least we will have to ask the breeder about money. I believe the vet bills for Jasper have come in at under £4,000 but we have to pay a 20% excess so there's no escaping that.​


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

you are definitely over reacting. Most puppies have worms. They do not usually make them ill . It would never cross my mind to put gloves on to clear up puppy poo (or to clean the toilets to be fair). Just relax and enjoy. I remember a new puppy doing a poo that was completely covered in worms - I just picked it up with a bit of kitchen roll, and got an efficient wormer for the pup.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Yes, you are overreacting.

Unfortunately, you bought an unhealthy pup from a shady Breeder and, as you now know, there can be consequences.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

April Pearl said:


> Oh good, I needed to hear that. I've been so worried for this weeks that maybe I did overreact! Thank you. My mum is keen to report the breeder but at the very least we will have to ask the breeder about money. I believe the vet bills for Jasper have come in at under £4,000 but we have to pay a 20% excess so there's no escaping that.​


Unfortunately this experience may color your whole world with him, for all his life now. I know, in my experience, after my first time with a chronically ill cat, back when I was only 25 it did change how I saw my cats and thought about their health and well being, forever after.

Maybe it won't happen that way for you, if you aren't the type to worry or become anxious. Or even, if you are forewarned against it? I wasn't, no internet back then.

Hope all is going well.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Blitz said:


> It would never cross my mind to put gloves on to clear up puppy poo


Me neither; but I know someone who keeps the cats' food utensils separate from 'theirs'. She won't even wash them together, either in the sink or in the dishwasher. Now THAT I do find odd, tho' I did have to wear a latex glove to clean the back end of one of mine who had diarrhoea after Metacam (he is long-haired, so it was quite a grim task).


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Calvine said:


> Me neither; but I know someone who keeps the cats' food utensils separate from 'theirs'. She won't even wash them together, either in the sink or in the dishwasher. Now THAT I do find odd, tho' I did have to wear a latex glove to clean the back end of one of mine who had diarrhoea after Metacam (he is long-haired, so it was quite a grim task).


I do not even bother with a glove for that job. It washes off! Not very nice when it goes under your nails though.

There was an episode of that house cleaning programme where the people had put horse stuff, bits and other metal things, in the dish washer and this was showed off as the ultimate in dreadfulness. Not sure what the fuss was about, lots of horse owners do the same.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Blitz said:


> It would never cross my mind to put gloves on to clear up puppy poo


It wouldn't cross my mind either. My mum has never put on a glove to clean up Jasper's poo before either but she said she didn't want to make him sick if he licked her bare hand and ingested something he shouldn't as she had just eaten and hadn't washed her hand yet. This was just after Jasper came back from hospital so I guess we are all a bit wary of him getting ill again.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

lorilu said:


> Unfortunately this experience may color your whole world with him, for all his life now. I know, in my experience, after my first time with a chronically ill cat, back when I was only 25 it did change how I saw my cats and thought about their health and well being, forever after.
> 
> Maybe it won't happen that way for you, if you aren't the type to worry or become anxious. Or even, if you are forewarned against it? I wasn't, no internet back then.
> 
> Hope all is going well.


I guess I'm quite prone to getting anxious. He just seems so fragile to me now. Hopefully with time I'll calm down about it though!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

April Pearl said:


> Hopefully with time I'll calm down about it though!


For your sake, and for his, I really hope you do. And I hope you don't let his rough start color the whole rest of his life and your relationship with him.

If you're anxious about every little thing he _will_ pick up on that and he _will_ start viewing the world as a worrisome place and think he has to be on guard all the time. That's no way to raise a pup, no way for him to live.

I would urge you again to put your nervous energies in to making sure this breeder faces strong enough consequences that she doesn't put any more animals through this again. Make sure that everything Jasper has been through wasn't for nothing, that there will at least not be another situation like his.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

O2.0 said:


> For your sake, and for his, I really hope you do. And I hope you don't let his rough start color the whole rest of his life and your relationship with him.
> 
> If you're anxious about every little thing he _will_ pick up on that and he _will_ start viewing the world as a worrisome place and think he has to be on guard all the time. That's no way to raise a pup, no way for him to live.
> 
> I would urge you again to put your nervous energies in to making sure this breeder faces strong enough consequences that she doesn't put any more animals through this again. Make sure that everything Jasper has been through wasn't for nothing, that there will at least not be another situation like his.


Thank you. Sorry, it's just tough.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

April Pearl said:


> I guess I'm quite prone to getting anxious. He just seems so fragile to me now. Hopefully with time I'll calm down about it though!


I hope so too. It will be better for all of you. xx


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

April Pearl said:


> Thank you. Sorry, it's just tough.


But it's really not though  Enjoy your puppy. Puppies are cute, silly, fun, and yes exhausting, but being exhausted by a pup means he's healthy and doing exactly what he should do as a puppy.

Have you followed up on reporting the breeder or at least letting them know how much this has all cost?


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

April Pearl said:


> Thank you. Sorry, it's just tough.


You have had a difficult start to puppyhood you will feel anxious but do try and focus on giving the little fella a great life and enjoy him. How is he settling back at home?


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Glad he's home and doing better .

Definitely encourage your Mum to report her, and push the breeder for the money - she only has to sell one puppy from the litter she's currently advertising, and she'll have paid it!

Don't make it easy for her to put other people and dogs in this situation in the future.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

O2.0 said:


> But it's really not though  Enjoy your puppy. Puppies are cute, silly, fun, and yes exhausting, but being exhausted by a pup means he's healthy and doing exactly what he should do as a puppy.
> 
> Have you followed up on reporting the breeder or at least letting them know how much this has all cost?


Thanks  I don't think we have gone over the £4,000 insurance limit however we will need to pay a 20% excess and we are going to talk to the breeder about that. My mum is keen to report the breeder but I don't know what we will do.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> You have had a difficult start to puppyhood you will feel anxious but do try and focus on giving the little fella a great life and enjoy him. How is he settling back at home?


He's been doing good, he's like a different puppy! So active and very keen to eat. Thankfully his little 'adventure' doesn't seem to have upset him too much.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Gemmaa said:


> Glad he's home and doing better .
> 
> Definitely encourage your Mum to report her, and push the breeder for the money - she only has to sell one puppy from the litter she's currently advertising, and she'll have paid it!
> 
> Don't make it easy for her to put other people and dogs in this situation in the future.


It's hard because I don't know if it was really the breeder's fault or just bad luck. She always seemed so nice and was very upset to hear about Jasper, I don't think anything like this has happened with one of her puppies before. I also don't think that anything would come of reporting. On the other hand I do realise that she has not perhaps not been the most responsible breeder if the puppies weren't wormed correctly (though she says they were). Jasper is technically my dog but although I'm in my twenties I do still live with my mum and brother so this has affected them too and they don't feel as charitable as I do. I guess if my mum is going to report the breeder she will do it.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

April Pearl said:


> It's hard because I don't know if it was really the breeder's fault or just bad luck. She always seemed so nice and was very upset to hear about Jasper, I don't think anything like this has happened with one of her puppies before. I also don't think that anything would come of reporting. On the other hand I do realise that she has not perhaps not been the most responsible breeder. Jasper is technically my dog but although I'm in my twenties I do still live with my mum and brother so this has affected them too and they don't feel as charitable as I do. I guess if my mum is going to report the breeder she will do it.


The right thing for the breeder to have done was to have offered help with the vet bill despite fault she doesn't seem keen to help at all. Do not feel bad.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

April Pearl said:


> It's hard because I don't know if it was really the breeder's fault or just bad luck. She always seemed so nice and was very upset to hear about Jasper, I don't think anything like this has happened with one of her puppies before. I also don't think that anything would come of reporting. On the other hand I do realise that she has not perhaps not been the most responsible breeder if the puppies weren't wormed correctly (though she says they were). Jasper is technically my dog but although I'm in my twenties I do still live with my mum and brother so this has affected them too and they don't feel as charitable as I do. I guess if my mum is going to report the breeder she will do it.


Oh dear, I'm sorry but this is an incredibly naive attitude, and one of the many reasons breeders like this continue to get away with their irresponsible, unethical, and frankly cruel practices. 
It's not just your puppy and you who are affected. Think about the poor bitch churning out litter after litter, the subsequent puppies produced, with health and sensory issues. Not all deaf, sick puppies land in a home that can afford £4K in treatment right off the bat, where do you think these puppies end up? The breeder isn't caring for them!
Please think about this logically. This breeder needs to be stopped, and you have the opportunity to do just that.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

April Pearl said:


> She always seemed so nice


I'm afraid she may have seemed nice but she wasn't really. She sold you a puppy that she knew was very sick and instead of getting him proper veterinary care, she offloaded him on to you with syrup to rub on his gums. She had used the syrup to stimulate him from lethargy - that is not normal, there is no way she didn't know he was sick.


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## Agandl (Sep 30, 2015)

April Pearl said:


> RVC phoned a bit late today but it all sounds like good news! Jasper is eating though still only a liquid diet of convalescence (he is refusing solid foods) and he is still on a drip... BUT he has gained weight!!!! He's now 385g. He will likely be at the RVC for a while still because he is on a 7 day treatment course. Starting to hope that he may get well and come home after all.
> 
> They are going to start reducing the amount of glucose he is getting through the drip so as to wean him off it and that concerns me but hopefully it'll be ok.
> 
> He also has strongyle worms (think I spelled that right) as well as the giardia.


That sounds very positive @April Pearl  I am so happy that Jasper is showing signs of pulling through. He is an amazingly lucky pup to have had such a caring Mum prepared to pull out all the stops for him

Keeping my fingers crossed and sending positive thoughts for his continuing recovery


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

JoanneF said:


> She sold you a puppy that she knew was very sick and instead of getting him proper veterinary care, she offloaded him on to you with syrup to rub on his gums. She had used the syrup to stimulate him from lethargy - that is not normal, there is no way she didn't know he was sick.


This absolutely. 
As everyone knows I am passionate about chihuahuas.. Breeding chihuahuas ethically with health testing, socialisation too. Would I get a chihuahua in the UK currently.. Nope.. Not enough do it right for me but I have never heard of anyone sending home a syrup with a chihuahua to revive them 'just in case' because hypoglycemia isn't the norm, common. It's very much a Chinese Whisper, fed adequately a toy breed should be OK missing a meal or two when acclimatising to a new home due to stress. If a dog, any dog has hypoglycemia or suspected hypoglycemia it should be treated and accessed by a vet, especially a puppy.

It's already been said, but you have had links galore, people explained to you that dogs are seen as property. If you bought a toaster from Argos from example, it didn't work. Am sure you wouldn't think oh dear that's £20 down the drain the staff were lovely though, you would pop back and say I bought this and got your money back.. You have obviously paid a lot more for this puppy than this, he means the world to you. The fact the breeder had this syrup to hand speaks volumes... She's obviously experienced in this and shouldn't be at all.. It's scary. Very scary and I am sure Jasper isn't the first, and won't be the last to be honest.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

lullabydream said:


> I have never heard of anyone sending home a syrup with a chihuahua to revive them 'just in case' because hypoglycemia isn't the norm


Jasper is a Pomeranian.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Burrowzig said:


> Jasper is a Pomeranian.


Am quite aware of this.. But seeing as chihuahuas are a smaller breed, and no chihuahua breeders would even consider this, have never heard this ever been a thing to be done in chihuahua circles, or any toy breeds.. Giving syrup in a puppy pack for hypoglycemia I am making a point.. Alarm bells were ringing or should be from the off


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## amplecrumlin (Oct 16, 2017)

I have to say, I don't think the nonspecific tone of the breeder-bashing on here is very helpful.

The OP found an experienced and accredited breeder who she liked and trusted, and it was only with hindsight and the experience of the pet forum hive-mind that the breeder was found wanting.

April Pearl, I can well imagine that you would prefer to put this down to bad luck and move on. Bad luck might have been one factor, but most of what happened with Jasper owes more to poor choices by the breeder.

Low birth weight
Slow and stalled growth
Too-early weaning
Death of a sibling
Runny poo
Puppy difficult to waken

All are red flags, and presented with all of them at once, a wise breeder would have kept the puppy a bit longer before letting him go. If she had done so, she would have had the vet bill herself, so it seems only reasonable that she should pay it now.

I don't mean to throw the baby away with the bathwater, I'm sure that she did some things right, but the best case scenario now is that she learns from this and improves her standards. I'm sure she is a lovely person but she made poor choices that you and Jasper, and perhaps many other puppies, have paid for.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

Being ‘nice’ costs nothing, and is the mainstay of Con artists.

This ‘nice’ lady hasn’t offered you any compensation, has she?

Being ‘nice is giving her a good income at the expense of all her poor bitches and their puppies, and the people like you who innocently buy them and find themselves in a no-win, horrible situation.

Never mind how nice she appears to be, do what everyone here says and go after her.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

amplecrumlin said:


> The OP found an experienced and accredited breeder


Who was also council registered.. Rarely these three things go together... Toy dog breeders rarely churn out litter after litter to warrant to be council registered...

She also advertised on pets4homes.. Rarely an experienced breeder needs to advertise their litters this way.. They are known through breed clubs, through other breeders who people get to know..

An experienced pomeranian breeder would have followed the ethics of the pomeranian breed club even if they didn't opt to be a member... Regardless of low birth weight most pomeranian go to their new home at the earliest at 10 weeks old.

This is why people like me and many others state why this breeder needs reporting.. People are seeing KC registered, assured breeder is ticking all the boxes and then oh Council too it must be good.. The KC need to know about the poor practice, the council too, and whoever else.


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## amplecrumlin (Oct 16, 2017)

I agree with all of the above, the point is that the OP has only learnt it with hindsight and from the more experienced people who have posted here.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

The OP came for advise, which we have all given time and time again. All with full explanation about its not right using a syrup, claiming a puppy has hypoglycemia, when viewing at 4 weeks old..

The breeder was a typical puppy farmer type person. Said all the right things, had the gift of the gab, must have done a lot of kissing the blarney stone if the OP couldn't feel confidence in the vet saying Jasper had diarrhea, and even though seeing this happen in the breeders home, the breeder even said oh that's not diarrhea.. So the vet had to be wrong. That's some real pulling the wool over the OPs eyes.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

We can _only _advise, it will be the OP and her family's choice whether to take the issues with the breeder further no matter how strongly we feel that to be the right course of action.
There has been some excellent advice given here, I hope it has been helpful toApril and her family and of course we send all the healing vibes we can muster to little Jasper for a long and happy life.
I'm picking up a feeling of frustration in this thread, my reason for posting this really.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

JoanneF said:


> she offloaded him on to you with syrup to rub on his gums.


 Yep; I never heard the like, and to be honest, that would have had me running for the hills. Jasper is such a lucky pup to have got April as an owner - many would have either not taken him, or returned him to the breeder as soon as it became apparent that he was so unwell. Lucky little dog! Any chance of a photo, @April Pearl?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

O2.0 said:


> Think about the poor bitch churning out litter after litter, the subsequent puppies produced, with health and sensory issues.


If I thought that the breeder was making any bitch have loads of litters I would be reporting her right now but she kennel club registers all her puppies, so her bitches can't be having more litters than allowed by the KC for purposes of registration.

I also don't believe that any of her other puppies have sensory issues and in fairness Jasper's health problems were due to parasites which does perhaps indicate poor husbandry but not necessarily bad breeding so I don't think her puppies have genetic problems or anything.



O2.0 said:


> Oh Not all deaf, sick puppies land in a home that can afford £4K in treatment right off the bat


Well Jasper didn't exactly either, it depends on what you mean by "afford". We are working on the assumption that the insurance will pay, if they don't then we will have to get the money back from the breeder because we aren't rich and that'd coming out of things like my mum's retirement savings (I can't really pay it all, as it would clear me out so my mum would have to lend me the money).


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Hi everyone. I did read (and appreciate!) all your comments and I think you are probably right that we were very naive going into getting a puppy. We should have known that kennel club assured and council licensed didn’t automatically equal good breeder and in hindsight there were plenty of other warning signs (such as giving us syrup for hypoglycemia) which just passed us by at the time. So yes, in future I would go about finding a breeder in a different way.

Before doing anything we are going to find out whether the insurance will pay out or not (it may not since Jasper’s condition pre existed the policy). Especially if the insurance will not pay out, we will need to talk to the breeder about what this has cost us and get some money back. As far as other measures go, we need to think and see how the breeder reacts to being asked for money back first. I really appreciate all the advice here.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

April Pearl said:


> I also don't believe that any of her other puppies have sensory issues and in fairness Jasper's problems were due to parasites which does perhaps indicate poor husbandry but not necessarily bad breeding so I don't think her puppies have genetic problems or anything.


As I told you in your original post about getting Jasper, being born all white is the reason he's deaf. Responsible breeders of breeds who can have sensory issues related to coat color know exactly how to avoid this, and do. 
Giardia and worms don't cause deafness.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

O2.0 said:


> As I told you in your original post about getting Jasper, being born all white is the reason he's deaf. Responsible breeders of breeds who can have sensory issues related to coat color know exactly how to avoid this, and do.
> Giardia and worms don't cause deafness.


I meant that the parasites caused his health problems, not his deafness.

I don't know why he is deaf. There are plenty of responsible breeders of all white pomeranians (granted maybe Jasper's breeder isn't one of them). And it was one of the original Pomeranian colours.

But that's beside the point because Jasper isn't actually white. He was sold as "pure white", but although he looks white now you can tell he is going to turn light cream. In order to breed a white pomeranian you need to breed a white pomeranian to another white pomeranian or to a Pomeranian carrying white. Jasper's mother is orange and although the breeder claims Jasper's father is white, I believe he is actually light cream. Pomeranian puppies can change colour quite dramatically when their adult coats come in and Jasper has light cream patches behind his ears which indicates he is going to turn light cream.

Honestly though, I really don't want to argue - that's not why I posted this thread.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

April Pearl said:


> But that's beside the point because Jasper isn't actually white. He was sold as "pure white", but although he looks white now you can tell he is going to turn light cream. In order to breed a white pomeranian you need to breed a white pomeranian to another white pomeranian or to a Pomeranian carrying white. Jasper's mother is orange and although the breeder claims Jasper's father is white, I believe he is actually light cream. Pomeranian puppies can change colour quite dramatically when their adult coats come in and Jasper has light cream patches behind his ears which indicates he is going to turn light cream.


LOL you realize you're just adding to the ever lengthening list of things that make this breeder irresponsible, unethical, and in need of reporting right? 
Now she's selling a dog as white who's not white, claiming the stud dog is white, who's not white.... Did she also fill out the pedigree incorrectly?

I'm not arguing with you, really. But I don't understand why you feel the need to defend this breeder. She's in the wrong, at every turn.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

There is probably why white pomeranians aren't popular in genuine pomeranian breeders circles, and I honestly think it's to do with health. I don't think many were seen in the show ring or at all... Then over the past couple of years white pomeranians are ten a penny on pets4homes, preloved etc.. Not noticed any on champ dogs. To me they are like the new blue staffy.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Calvine said:


> Yep; I never heard the like, and to be honest, that would have had me running for the hills. Jasper is such a lucky pup to have got April as an owner - many would have either not taken him, or returned him to the breeder as soon as it became apparent that he was so unwell. Lucky little dog! Any chance of a photo, @April Pearl?


Thanks. I am very glad we got him when we did as he would probably have died otherwise. He is doing very well and making up for lost time growing! He was 420g yesterday so gaining about 30g a day (for pom puppies his age they usually gain about 30-60g a week lol!). He is eating about double the calories he needs as RVC were feeding him special high caloriefood which he was sent home with (but we will gradually get him onto normal puppy food as they directed) and he is obviously using that to catch up on missed growth!

Here are some pictures. Excuse his bald patches, they seem to have shave him in places, probably so they could prick him for glucose blood testing.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> Thanks. I am very glad we got him when we did as he would probably have died otherwise.


Doesn't this one sentence make you realise the breeder needs reporting.


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## Billbailey (Dec 22, 2019)

Oh bless him! HE'S SO FLUFFY!! Sorry I turned into Agnes for a moment there....


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

O2.0 said:


> LOL you realize you're just adding to the ever lengthening list of things that make this breeder irresponsible, unethical, and in need of reporting right?
> Now she's selling a dog as white who's not white, claiming the stud dog is white, who's not white.... Did she also fill out the pedigree incorrectly?
> 
> I'm not arguing with you, really. But I don't understand why you feel the need to defend this breeder. She's in the wrong, at every turn.


Yes I realise that it's not good of her to have done that and she probably did it just so she could sell him for more. And I'm not trying to defend the breeder.



lullabydream said:


> There is probably why white pomeranians aren't popular in genuine pomeranian breeders circles, and I honestly think it's to do with health. I don't think many were seen in the show ring or at all... Then over the past couple of years white pomeranians are ten a penny on pets4homes, preloved etc.. Not noticed any on champ dogs. To me they are like the new blue staffy.


Interesting, thanks. Didn't realise that. Weird since all poms were originally white and the other colours were bred in. I guess it's good Jasper isn't white, then. Chiao li ya in Taiwan seem to produce healthy white poms, though.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

April Pearl said:


> Thanks. I am very glad we got him when we did as he would probably have died otherwise. He is doing very well and making up for lost time growing! He was 420g yesterday so gaining about 30g a day (for pom puppies his age they usually gain about 30-60g a week lol!). He is eating about double the calories he needs as RVC were feeding him special high caloriefood which he was sent home with (but we will gradually get him onto normal puppy food as they directed) and he is obviously using that to catch up on missed growth!
> 
> Here are some pictures. Excuse his bald patches, they seem to have shave him in places, probably so they could prick him for glucose blood testing.
> 
> ...


Gosh he is tiny isn't he id be worried about treading on him.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> Thanks. I am very glad we got him when we did as he would probably have died otherwise. He is doing very well and making up for lost time growing! He was 420g yesterday so gaining about 30g a day (for pom puppies his age they usually gain about 30-60g a week lol!). He is eating about double the calories he needs as RVC were feeding him special high caloriefood which he was sent home with (but we will gradually get him onto normal puppy food as they directed) and he is obviously using that to catch up on missed growth!
> 
> Here are some pictures. Excuse his bald patches, they seem to have shave him in places, probably so they could prick him for glucose blood testing.
> 
> ...


What an adorable little bundle of fluff, so glad he's picked up!


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## Cookielabrador (Sep 1, 2018)

Quickly skimmed through this thread so if there’s something I’m missing, I do apologise.
Anyways, I’m glad your puppy is better. He’s very sweet! I hope he’s settling in well.


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## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

April Pearl said:


> Thanks. I am very glad we got him when we did as he would probably have died otherwise. He is doing very well and making up for lost time growing! He was 420g yesterday so gaining about 30g a day (for pom puppies his age they usually gain about 30-60g a week lol!). He is eating about double the calories he needs as RVC were feeding him special high caloriefood which he was sent home with (but we will gradually get him onto normal puppy food as they directed) and he is obviously using that to catch up on missed growth!
> 
> Here are some pictures. Excuse his bald patches, they seem to have shave him in places, probably so they could prick him for glucose blood testing.
> 
> ...


He's so tiny and fluffy awww! I'd be confusing him with my slippers! Glad to hear he's thriving, look forward to updates.


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## Kittynanna (Feb 15, 2015)

So glad he is doing well now, he is a little bundle of fluffy gorgeousness.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

lullabydream said:


> There is probably why white pomeranians aren't popular in genuine pomeranian breeders circles, and I honestly think it's to do with health. I don't think many were seen in the show ring or at all... Then over the past couple of years white pomeranians are ten a penny on pets4homes, preloved etc.. Not noticed any on champ dogs. To me they are like the new blue staffy.


this is a bit like volpinos ( actually a poms ancestoral many grands, grandparent)
reds like Foglia are the original colour
and are now so rare, even in italy, that its all but impossible to gfind a breeder of reds, or even find a 'thrown' red pup in a litter
White however? well, if you were looking for a volpino, you couldnt throw a stone without hitting a white breeder, especially in the USA.
Strangely though, despite breeding white to white, they have an amazingly low incidence of deafness, eye problems, or, death in utero


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

April Pearl said:


> Excuse his bald patches, they seem to have shave him in places, probably so they could prick him for glucose blood testing.


He's very cute  
His shaved spots are likely for IV drip of food/fluids when he was so poorly. They seem to be on the inside of his hind leg, his neck, and his front leg? Those are pretty common IV spots. Though whoever did the shaving did a terrific job, those look very clean, small and growing over well already. Almost doesn't look like he has been shaved TBH!

Blood glucose testing doesn't need a shaved spot, and even if you do shave a spot, you'd use the same spot over and over. It's a tiny drop of blood needed. 
I'm surprised with all the hypoglycemia issues he has had that they didn't send you home with a home test kit and instructions on how to get a quick blood sample and test it. I'm guessing they don't think hypoglycemia will resurface?


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

Awww what a cute little bundle of fluff. He is absolutely adorable.


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## karenmc (Feb 3, 2018)

Oh he is gorgeous! I've never seen a white pom before just the orange/gold fur poms. So glad to hear he is improving and gaining weight. He looks very settled in your family.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

April Pearl said:


> Thanks. I am very glad we got him when we did as he would probably have died otherwise. He is doing very well and making up for lost time growing! He was 420g yesterday so gaining about 30g a day (for pom puppies his age they usually gain about 30-60g a week lol!). He is eating about double the calories he needs as RVC were feeding him special high caloriefood which he was sent home with (but we will gradually get him onto normal puppy food as they directed) and he is obviously using that to catch up on missed growth!
> 
> Here are some pictures. Excuse his bald patches, they seem to have shave him in places, probably so they could prick him for glucose blood testing.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the photos: he is adorable!


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## amplecrumlin (Oct 16, 2017)

I'm probably stating the obvious here, but either:

1. Jasper was already ill when you brought him home - so the breeder is responsible.

Or, 2. He wasn't ill, so insurance should pay out.

It seems inescapable that he was already ill, but also seems conceivable that his vets may be reluctant to put that in writing and get drawn into a legal dispute (especially one involving the kennel club).

Just my 5-cents-worth.

It will suck if the OP has to go through a lot of wrangling on top of the stressful week that she has had. Let us hope that the breeder finds a conscience and does the right thing.

OP, he is off-the-scales gorgeous, thanks for the pictures! I think we all feel invested in him like doting but distant relatives!


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

What a gorgeous ball of white fluff, so glad his on the mend.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

amplecrumlin said:


> that his vets may be reluctant to put that in writing and get drawn into a legal dispute with the kennel club.


In my experience its part of the job that vets have to suggest reporting breeders to owners.. It's usually their suggestion that makes it happen.

It wouldn't be a dispute with kennel club.. How can you deny that Jasper was ill. Kennel club need the facts, and if the owner is happy to share and allow the vets to be contacted that will be enough.

If anyone has talked to any vets long enough they are all frustrated with unethical breeding, and see the worse of it all.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

There's one picture where someone appears to have slippers that match him!


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

O2.0 said:


> He's very cute
> His shaved spots are likely for IV drip of food/fluids when he was so poorly. They seem to be on the inside of his hind leg, his neck, and his front leg? Those are pretty common IV spots. Though whoever did the shaving did a terrific job, those look very clean, small and growing over well already. Almost doesn't look like he has been shaved TBH!
> 
> Blood glucose testing doesn't need a shaved spot, and even if you do shave a spot, you'd use the same spot over and over. It's a tiny drop of blood needed.
> I'm surprised with all the hypoglycemia issues he has had that they didn't send you home with a home test kit and instructions on how to get a quick blood sample and test it. I'm guessing they don't think hypoglycemia will resurface?


That explanation for the shaving sounds plausible! Wish I had asked at the time why they did it. They seem to think that with the parasites gone he won't go hypoglycemic again (and they monitored him off the drip for a while to check he was ok). A test kit at home would have been good now that you mention it but actually I don't know how I'd be able to hold him down and get out enough blood for the test (at the emergency vets I saw them do a glucose test on him and even they were having trouble squeezing a drop of blood out of his ear though they managed it eventually - and then of course he was lying still because he was unwell but now he'd wriggle around everywhere!)



karenmc said:


> Oh he is gorgeous! I've never seen a white pom before just the orange/gold fur poms. So glad to hear he is improving and gaining weight. He looks very settled in your family.


Thank you. Haha we think he's actually going to turn out a cream colour but yes not orange. He is settling in well now.



amplecrumlin said:


> OP, he is off-the-scales gorgeous, thanks for the pictures! I think we all feel invested in him like doting but distant relatives!


Aww thank you, that's really nice to hear. I'm sure he would appreciate it (so long as you are relatives who come bearing chicken!)



Calvine said:


> There's one picture where someone appears to have slippers that match him!


Haha that would be me. Happy coincidence!


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

(Jasper has been back from hospital for over a week now. He is such a different puppy now! Always playing (well, when he is awake) and eats everything you put in front of him (including fingers but we are working on that lol) which is funny because when we first got him he wasn't eating and we thought he was really fussy. I'm trying to teach him some signs and sometimes I think he knows them but it could just be coincidence!

His diarrhoea is gone and he is growing well. He is now 450g (finally, a pound!) so already 100g more than when we first got him.

Still got some bald patches from his time in hospital but the hair seems to be gradually growing back (not sure if it will ever completely grow back though, as apparently with poms it often doesn't).

Plus he has had some practice with a harness and leash with plenty of treats to bribe him with.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> View attachment 428620
> View attachment 428619
> (Jasper has been back from hospital for over a week now. He is such a different puppy now! Always playing (well, when he is awake) and eats everything you put in front of him (including fingers but we are working on that lol) which is funny because when we first got him he wasn't eating and we thought he was really fussy. I'm trying to teach him some signs and sometimes I think he knows them but it could just be coincidence!
> 
> ...


Brilliant update, I'm so pleased for you ! And so cute.xxx


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## NFC slave (Nov 7, 2017)

There really should be a law against being that adorable x


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

He is such the cutest little bundle of fluff :Joyful

You both are doing really well, well done. 

How is he with brushing? I remember my pup being a nightmare as all he wanted to do was eat the brush! lol


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Powder puff!! He is just too sweet for words! Thank you for the photos!


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

ForestWomble said:


> He is such the cutest little bundle of fluff :Joyful
> 
> You both are doing really well, well done.
> 
> How is he with brushing? I remember my pup being a nightmare as all he wanted to do was eat the brush! lol


He does like to eat the brush, bless him. Actually, I've figured out how to get him to stay still so we can brush him. I put him on my lap and feed him treats with one hand while brushing him with the other hand - keeps his mouth occupied. Also, for the tear stains, one person holds him while the other person feeds him a treat with one hand and cleans the tear stains with the other. He's so food motivated now it makes life a lot easier!


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> He does like to eat the brush, bless him. Actually, I've figured out how to get him to stay still so we can brush him. I put him on my lap and feed him treats with one hand while brushing him with the other hand - keeps his mouth occupied. Also, for the tear stains, one person holds him while the other person feeds him a treat with one hand and cleans the tear stains with the other. He's so food motivated now it makes life a lot easier!


That's brilliant


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

He is the sweetest little bean.


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## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

I can't believe the difference in such a short time! He's doing so well too, keep up the good work. 
He's just so fluffy!


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

He is just adorable!
Being a pup his hair should definitely grow back because as he matures it will change anyway. Most dogs get shaved for one thing or another in their lives and usually have no problem growing hair back.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Sarah H said:


> He is just adorable!
> Being a pup his hair should definitely grow back because as he matures it will change anyway. Most dogs get shaved for one thing or another in their lives and usually have no problem growing hair back.


It does look like its growing back. Apparently though if you shave a Pomeranian their hair doesn't grow back "right" - it grows kind of patchy. I'm hoping though that because this is his puppy coat, his adult coat will be unaffected.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

We are having some problems around toilet training and, since they partly have to do with Jasper’s health, I thought I’d ask about it here. For the past few days I have been trying to start toilet training (I know I should have started earlier but we were concerned about him getting wet/cold as he had only recently been very ill). Well, it is not going great - and by that I mean, he has not done his business outside once! I’ve been taking him outside every 45 minutes, after he’s eaten/slept etc and we then stand there for a while but he doesn’t ‘go’! Then, predictably, we go back inside and within 20 minutes he’s been inside. I should probably be standing out there until he does go but he’s still so small and it is very cold outside for him. Plus, the grass is wet and he is so low to the ground it gets his tummy wet so that I worry about him getting a chill. If he was a Great Dane or a Labrador puppy I’d have no qualms about waiting it out, but I think he does get cold quite easily. So, I don’t know what I should be doing. Is it ok for me to be standing outside with him in the cold and wet for, say, 15 minutes? 30 minutes? More? Because I think I’d have to wait until he couldn’t hold it any more.

He is sleeping in his exercise pen which has a bed in it and a puppy pad at the other end. He is consistently going on the puppy pad when he is in there but, unfortunately, when outside of his pen he does often go on the floor even though we do have puppy pads down.

One problem is that he ‘stealth pees’ - he really shows no signs that he is about to pee and you only notice when you see the puddle he has left behind! So, it’s impossible to ‘spot the signs’ and then get him outside/to a pad in time.

Another issue is that he does not poop 30 minutes after ever meal, or whatever he is meant to do. His pooping schedule is very random and he usually poos hours after he has eaten.

Some advice would be great (please don’t be too harsh, I know we’re doing awful with the toilet training and probably making so many mistakes).


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

I would try taking/leaving a soiled puppy pad outside so he can smell his scent, both wee and poop, I used to write down the poop timings when mine were little tiny pups so I could see a pattern emerge (I did have them on a timed feeding schedule) and would hopefully have more of an idea of when they were going to go so we could spend a little more time outside when it was due.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

It's really very early days, he's so tiny and as you say the weather is not in your favour.
I think you can only carry on what you're doing with maybe a few tweaks.
Do you take him out on lead ? If not , do so, so he doesn't get distracted by exciting things like leaves and twigs. 
You might find he's better when you can walk him properly, the exercise often gets the gut moving .
It will all come together with patience and perseverance.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

April Pearl said:


> I should probably be standing out there until he does go


I wouldn't. I'd take him out, if no toilet bring him back in then back out after 5 minutes. Repeat until he toilets outside. You need him to toilet outside so you can reward him heavily, so that he gets it that outdoor toilets are worth holding his toilet for. That's when toilet training will "click".



April Pearl said:


> So, it's impossible to 'spot the signs' and then get him outside/to a pad in time.


 He is too young to show signs. You need to be proactive rather than reactive and take him out regularly.

I disagree about the puppy pads though. They will teach him that indoor toilets are allowed.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Thank you to everyone who offered advice on toilet training - I will try to implement your suggestions.

This morning, something not-so-great happened. I was in the garden with Jasper trying to get him to go to the toilet (which he didn’t, by the way), when I noticed him eating something. It was dark because it was in the early morning so I didn’t realise until I bent down that he was eating cat poo! He had a good mouthful of it, too.

For some reason my mum has an aversion to litter trays, refuses to have one despite all my past suggestions, so our cat is allowed to crap in the garden. He goes in the flowerbeds so I thought the grass was safe, plus I had Jasper on a lead to prevent him getting to the flowerbeds. Because it was dark I didn’t notice there was cat poo in the grass until it was too late.

I have since discovered that most cats have toxoplasmosis despite showing no symptoms of it and dogs become infected by eating the poo of an infected cat. Puppies often die if infected by toxoplasmosis.

Not sure if I’m overreacting here but this has worried me quite a bit.


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

Please breathe and it will be ok, most dogs will eat cat poop as it is delicious to dogs, I doubt very much he is at risk of toxoplasmosis.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

The boxers consider cat poop a delicacy. I find it vile but it’s never made them ill.


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## Jason25 (May 8, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> The boxers consider cat poop a delicacy. I find it vile but it's never made them ill.


Never forget the time daisy ate cat poop, ran in the house and tried to give me kisses. I could of cried :Hungover:Hilarious


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

My dogs adored it and were distraught when their supply was cut off ! They were never ill from it.


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## Jason25 (May 8, 2018)

April Pearl said:


> Thank you to everyone who offered advice on toilet training - I will try to implement your suggestions.
> 
> This morning, something not-so-great happened. I was in the garden with Jasper trying to get him to go to the toilet (which he didn't, by the way), when I noticed him eating something. It was dark because it was in the early morning so I didn't realise until I bent down that he was eating cat poo! He had a good mouthful of it, too.
> 
> ...


Try not to worry too much, I know when they are a puppy it's hard not to, it feels like they are so fragile and anything can damage them. Daisy has eaten loads of poo growing up and it's never made her ill, maybe sick once or twice but never really ill.

I mean all sorts of poo as well, rabbit, horse, cat, dog, lamb, cow and pony lol.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Thanks everyone! Hopefully it will be fine then. I’ve got to make sure it doesn’t happen again in future, though.


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

April Pearl said:


> Thanks everyone! Hopefully it will be fine then. I've got to make sure it doesn't happen again in future, though.


Try as you might, he's a puppy, he's gonna eat foul revolting things, it what they do, I know he has been very poorly but eating poo is very much a dog thing to do.


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## moomoowawa (May 19, 2019)

April, Jasper is absolutely adorable! Another one here urging you to report the breeder. Imagine if a puppy had gone to a family who couldn't afford or borrow the £4k and who hadn't yet organised insurance. Imagine a puppy suffering through what Jasper suffered through with no medical assistance.

It's easy to be "nice". Nice is free. My clients dont give a shit whether I'm nice or not. They care about whether I do my work properly.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Ok took a little break (turned out not to be that long!) but I'm back with another update on Jasper. And pictures, lots of pictures.

Since his second vaccination has kicked in, he has been going out to the park where he has met lots of other dogs and people. Every time I go out with him everyone wants to stop and see him/take pictures - good for his socialisation, though. Unfortunately I don't have any pictures of him on his walks though, because I'm usually busy making sure he doesn't eat something inappropriate!

He is going to start a puppy training class next week, which should be interesting!

He will be 13 weeks old in two days which is hard to believe after all he's been through. Still small (530g today) but growing!









Still has the cutest face.








He has a deep love for spoons.








Jasper is very interested in our cat... Who is petrified of him (despite being about 7 times Jasper's size).








Jasper had his first bath today.








Looked like a drowned rat! Poor thing did not enjoy the experience.








Got him a jumper so that he can go out in the cold weather without shivering.








He is surprisingly good about wearing it!








He thinks my slipper is a bed.















The bald patch on his chest is growing over with new fur very nicely.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

April Pearl said:


> He thinks my slipper is a bed.


You've got that wrong. You think *his bed* is your slipper. : )

PS Just think of the cat poo as a natural probiotic. Won't hurt him a bit. (Though I feel sorry for Jasper not having an indoor toilet. All cats should have the option to toilet inside. And how will anyone know if he's getting sick?)


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## karenmc (Feb 3, 2018)

I'm so pleased to see how well Jasper is getting on now after his tough start. He looks adorable! I can't believe how tiny he is especially on the picture with your cat. I had to laugh when you said the cat is scared of him!! Lovely to see your 'pupdate' pics.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

lorilu said:


> You've got that wrong. You think *his bed* is your slipper. : )
> 
> PS Just think of the cat poo as a natural probiotic. Won't hurt him a bit. (Though I feel sorry for Jasper not having an indoor toilet. All cats should have the option to toilet inside. And how will anyone know if he's getting sick?)


The cat poo seems to have done no harm so it's all good  our cat is called Mole, by the way. I feel bad for Mole not having a litter tray too! I have tried to tell my mum that he really should have one (for his own good) even before we got Jasper but she thinks having one in the house would be disgusting. Personally, I think having his poo festering all over the garden (where it doesn't get picked up, unlike in a litter tray, and is encountered whenever you do any gardening) is more disgusting...


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

karenmc said:


> I'm so pleased to see how well Jasper is getting on now after his tough start. He looks adorable! I can't believe how tiny he is especially on the picture with your cat. I had to laugh when you said the cat is scared of him!! Lovely to see your 'pupdate' pics.


He wants so badly to play with our cat but the cat took one sniff of him and clearly thinks he is a wolf and wants nothing to do with him!


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

Sounds much more positive than his early updates 



April Pearl said:


> Every time I go out with him everyone wants to stop and see him/take pictures - good for his socialisation, though.


Just a quick bit of advice, but I would be careful about this as it could cause you endless annoyances with him as an adult thinking that he should go up to, stop, and ask for attention from every passerby. A friend had this issue with their puppy - they have learnt a LOT about dog behaviour and training since then, and it's one of their biggest regrets about his socialisation window.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

He really is so cute he looks like he is doing well.


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## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

I'm so pleased that he seems to be thriving now, not surprised he generates lots of attention when you have him out, don't think I've seen a pup so tiny and fluffy - he's gorgeous!


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

April Pearl said:


> The cat poo seems to have done no harm so it's all good  our cat is called Mole, by the way. I feel bad for Mole not having a litter tray too! I have tried to tell my mum that he really should have one (for his own good) even before we got Jasper but she thinks having one in the house would be disgusting. Personally, I think having his poo festering all over the garden (where it doesn't get picked up, unlike in a litter tray, and is encountered whenever you do any gardening) is more disgusting...


Oops got the names backward. Very sad that your mother sees Mole as some kind of second class citizen. A litter box isn't "disgusting" if it is kept clean. The thing is, often the first sign of illness in a cat is a change in litter box habits. If you don't know the cat's habits, you won't know he's sick. And, if he does get sick, he's more likely to soil in the house, if he doesn't have a litter box. So she's pretty much cutting off her nose to site her face, as the saying goes.

That is all.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Do they know how big he will get ?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Torin. said:


> Sounds much more positive than his early updates
> 
> Just a quick bit of advice, but I would be careful about this as it could cause you endless annoyances with him as an adult thinking that he should go up to, stop, and ask for attention from every passerby. A friend had this issue with their puppy - they have learnt a LOT about dog behaviour and training since then, and it's one of their biggest regrets about his socialisation window.


Didn't think of this, thank you. Will have to limit interactions with passers by to some extent then!


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

lorilu said:


> Oops got the names backward. Very sad that your mother sees Mole as some kind of second class citizen. A litter box isn't "disgusting" if it is kept clean. The thing is, often the first sign of illness in a cat is a change in litter box habits. If you don't know the cat's habits, you won't know he's sick. And, if he does get sick, he's more likely to soil in the house, if he doesn't have a litter box. So she's pretty much cutting off her nose to site her face, as the saying goes.
> 
> That is all.


I know, and he is 15 now and doesn't really go out except to go to the toilet. I've offered to clean the litterbox myself but it's become a matter of principle with her now to refuse I guess. He is her cat and it is her house so there's not much more I can do.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> Do they know how big he will get ?


Not sure, it would be based on his parents' sizes I suppose. His dad is 1.4kg and his mum is 2kg so somewhere around those weights.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

April Pearl said:


> Not sure, it would be based on his parents' sizes I suppose. His dad is 1.4kg and his mum is 2kg so somewhere around those weights.


So tiny ! The boys are around 30kg. You must have to be careful with interactions with dogs Loki would probably tread on him.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> So tiny ! The boys are around 30kg. You must have to be careful with interactions with dogs Loki would probably tread on him.


Standard size for Pomeranians but yes, very small - our cat is 3.6kg! We do have to be careful, when he met our neighbour's Labrador he was almost stepped on!


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Poor Tango was always getting paws trodden on, she would get under my feet in the ktchen. I just had to step back and there would be a yelp!We had to shut her out when we were cookng.
It's worth thinking about the trip hazards wth small dogs.


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## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

Just a thought, maybe you should create a new post now that your pup is thriving!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

SusieRainbow said:


> Poor Tango was always getting paws trodden on, she would get under my feet in the ktchen. I just had to step back and there would be a yelp!We had to shut her out when we were cookng.
> It's worth thinking about the trip hazards wth small dogs.


 I tread on Sox all the time but it's not such a worry.


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## margy (Dec 9, 2018)

Belle was also very small when we got her and we got a cat collar and attached a bell so we knew where she was as she often got under foot, hence her name. I've never seen such a small puppy but am so pleased to hear how well he is doing, and thankyou for the update, often people come on and discuss their pets then you never hear from them again!


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

SusieRainbow said:


> It's worth thinking about the trip hazards wth small dogs.


Timber's nickname is Trip Hazard. Seriously, has been for years ...


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

JoanneF said:


> Timber's nickname is Trip Hazard. Seriously, has been for years ...


A dog trainer person I used to know like a bazillion years ago (I have mutual friends with her still though) has a small dog genuinely called Trip Hazard, or Trip for short


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Yes, that was one of Tango's nicknames - there were others !


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

i am so ashamed
i showed matthew the picture of Mole and Jasper
he laughed and said hed never seen a cat afraid of a guinea pig before :Shamefullyembarrased
Jasper. im so sorry, you is small, but mighty


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

April Pearl said:


> Thank you to everyone who offered advice on toilet training - I will try to implement your suggestions.
> 
> This morning, something not-so-great happened. I was in the garden with Jasper trying to get him to go to the toilet (which he didn't, by the way), when I noticed him eating something. It was dark because it was in the early morning so I didn't realise until I bent down that he was eating cat poo! He had a good mouthful of it, too.
> 
> ...


If you did have a litter tray, he would have a field day; if you didn't want him to have access, it would have to be locked somewhere which would likely mean that the cat couldn't find it. Even if you had a covered one, he's tiny enough to climb inside! Glad he is looking so fit and happy now.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> Didn't think of this, thank you. Will have to limit interactions with passers by to some extent then!


Little dogs can also become overwhelmed by too much attention/touching from giant humans, causing anxiety and barking or snapping to keep them away.

Same with strange dogs. He's quite vulnerable, given his size.

Be selective who he socialises with, otherwise it can turn into sensitisation.

Glad he's doing so well after a difficult start 

Maybe a new thread to show his ongoing progress?

(The title of this one could be off putting )


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

Calvine said:


> If you did have a litter tray, he would have a field day; if you didn't want him to have access, it would have to be locked somewhere which would likely mean that the cat couldn't find it. Even if you had a covered one, he's tiny enough to climb inside! Glad he is looking so fit and happy now.


Top entry litter trays solve this problem.


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

The other thing you can do with cat litter trays and small dogs, assuming the cat doesn't have any mobility problems, is raise the litter trays. MorilCat (who is technically bigger than Cadvan) has two litter trays, one on a cabinet, one on a blanket chest. They're much easier for me to clean too, as less bending required!

This photo is from when it was new and not fully set up yet, but here's Cadvan vs one of Moril's litter trays. The jump up is easy peasy for Moril


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

Torin. said:


> The other thing you can do with cat litter trays and small dogs, assuming the cat doesn't have any mobility problems, is raise the litter trays. MorilCat (who is technically bigger than Cadvan) has two litter trays, one on a cabinet, one on a blanket chest. They're much easier for me to clean too, as less bending required!
> 
> This photo is from when it was new and not fully set up yet, but here's Cadvan vs one of Moril's litter trays. The jump up is easy peasy for Moril


Clever, I have the ikea Hol chest, I have a spare top with had a hole cut in it for top entry for when the dogs were small enough to access the side hole, but doofus fully grown Hector managed to wedge his back legs in it when he jumped up on the top and fell in, so I changed back to solid top and side entry as they can't fit in it now.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

SusieRainbow said:


> Poor Tango was always getting paws trodden on, she would get under my feet in the ktchen. I just had to step back and there would be a yelp!We had to shut her out when we were cookng.
> It's worth thinking about the trip hazards wth small dogs.


Yes! We have to be very careful, especially as he likes to chase our feet. You get in the habit of always looking down as you walk, though.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

DanWalkersmum said:


> Just a thought, maybe you should create a new post now that your pup is thriving!


Decided just to change the title of this thread as it has everything about Jasper so far on it.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

mrs phas said:


> i am so ashamed
> i showed matthew the picture of Mole and Jasper
> he laughed and said hed never seen a cat afraid of a guinea pig before :Shamefullyembarrased
> Jasper. im so sorry, you is small, but mighty


Haha we have had Guinea pigs before and Jasper is still smaller than they were! Having said that, Mole (and his sister who has since passed away) was also scared of the Guinea pigs.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Calvine said:


> If you did have a litter tray, he would have a field day; if you didn't want him to have access, it would have to be locked somewhere which would likely mean that the cat couldn't find it. Even if you had a covered one, he's tiny enough to climb inside! Glad he is looking so fit and happy now.





MontyMaude said:


> Top entry litter trays solve this problem.





Torin. said:


> The other thing you can do with cat litter trays and small dogs, assuming the cat doesn't have any mobility problems, is raise the litter trays. MorilCat (who is technically bigger than Cadvan) has two litter trays, one on a cabinet, one on a blanket chest. They're much easier for me to clean too, as less bending required!
> 
> This photo is from when it was new and not fully set up yet, but here's Cadvan vs one of Moril's litter trays. The jump up is easy peasy for Moril





MontyMaude said:


> Clever, I have the ikea Hol chest, I have a spare top with had a hole cut in it for top entry for when the dogs were small enough to access the side hole, but doofus fully grown Hector managed to wedge his back legs in it when he jumped up on the top and fell in, so I changed back to solid top and side entry as they can't fit in it now.
> 
> View attachment 429309


If we did have a litter tray we would just put it on a raised area. Wouldn't even need to be that high up as Jasper currently cannot climb up anything more than about half a foot tall, maybe even less. Mike's food is now placed up high to keep Jasper from eating it. So Jasper is not an obstacle to Mole getting a litter tray. Unfortunately my mum refuses to have one for other (in my opinion poor) reasons.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Lurcherlad said:


> Little dogs can also become overwhelmed by too much attention/touching from giant humans, causing anxiety and barking or snapping to keep them away.
> 
> Same with strange dogs. He's quite vulnerable, given his size.
> 
> ...


Good advice, thank you. We will have to be careful. He does seem quite sociable currently as he always wants to run after passing people or dogs in the park so hopefully he hasn't been overwhelmed yet.

Had the title of this thread changed so it is now more positive!


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## Kittynanna (Feb 15, 2015)

I agree about monitoring the attention he receives, my dog Harvey is only small 4lb, and everywhere we go he gets attention from people....he doesn’t really like it so we are very careful and most times say no to people who ask to pet him...explaining that he is timid with people, usually people understand, but I’m not having him forced to accept unwanted attention....

Dogs though he loves them whatever their size, but always be aware of his vulnerability due to his size.
What I mean by that is my last yorkie was much bigger than Harvey and we could allow him more free interactions.


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## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

I was just reading about you taking Jasper out and wondered what kind of harness you use or one so tiny (if you're walking him)? When we got Dan he was just over 3kg (he's just over 11kg now at 15 months) and we had a really small step in vest style one with a velcro and clip fastening on the back that worked well for him, but seeing as Jasper is so small I am interested to know what you are using for him.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

DanWalkersmum said:


> I was just reading about you taking Jasper out and wondered what kind of harness you use or one so tiny (if you're walking him)? When we got Dan he was just over 3kg (he's just over 11kg now at 15 months) and we had a really small step in vest style one with a velcro and clip fastening on the back that worked well for him, but seeing as Jasper is so small I am interested to know what you are using for him.


Managed to find a harness which fits him on Ebay in XXXXS size - it is here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/XXXS-XXS...3?pageci=11bf5e0e-fc1c-4a43-8c29-2463399a3b4e

Here he is wearing it:









It isn't great because the bit which goes around his chest does not connect to the bit which goes around his middle underneath. But there is not much choice in this size. We also tried a ferret harness on him which does fit but I don't use as I think it just more pressure on his neck.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Kittynanna said:


> I agree about monitoring the attention he receives, my dog Harvey is only small 4lb, and everywhere we go he gets attention from people....he doesn't really like it so we are very careful and most times say no to people who ask to pet him...explaining that he is timid with people, usually people understand, but I'm not having him forced to accept unwanted attention....
> 
> Dogs though he loves them whatever their size, but always be aware of his vulnerability due to his size.
> What I mean by that is my last yorkie was much bigger than Harvey and we could allow him more free interactions.


Good advice, thank you. What sort of dog is Harvey? A yorkie? Would love to see a picture. ETA: Just realised he is probably the dog in your profile picture - if so he is very cute and I see why he gets so much attention!

Jasper may be around 4lbs fully grown as his mum is 4.5lbs and his dad is 3lbs.


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## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

April Pearl said:


> Managed to find a harness which fits him on Ebay in XXXS size - it is here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/XXXS-XXS...3?pageci=11bf5e0e-fc1c-4a43-8c29-2463399a3b4e
> 
> Here he is wearing it:
> View attachment 429343
> ...


That looks cute! I didn't know if thy even made them so tiny, you do need to be careul with their little necks don't you?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

DanWalkersmum said:


> That looks cute! I didn't know if thy even made them so tiny, you do need to be careul with their little necks don't you?


Me neither! Was difficult to find. I think the bow on it does contribute to the fact that literally everyone who sees him thinks he is a girl, though  I think the eBay seller might have made it but I'm not sure. I've got some harnesses which I prefer but only in larger sizes so he steps right out of them, unfortunately.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

Do you have Facebook? Isle for dogs boutique is just for small/tiny dogs and Tiny Twiglets custom makes items.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Jobeth said:


> Do you have Facebook? Isle for dogs boutique is just for small/tiny dogs and Tiny Twiglets custom makes items.


I do! Will check them out as I'd like a jacket with a lead attachment for him but can't find the right size


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## Billbailey (Dec 22, 2019)

Does he need a jacket with all that fur?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Billbailey said:


> Does he need a jacket with all that fur?


The weather is quite bad right now and he seems to get cold and start shivering pretty easily when he goes out without a jumper so I just prefer to be safe rather than sorry.


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## Billbailey (Dec 22, 2019)

Are you sure he's not shivering because he's tiny and the outside world is a big scary place? I'm only asking cos dogs can easily overheat. And Poms do come from Poland where it gets way colder than it ever does here.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Billbailey said:


> Are you sure he's not shivering because he's tiny and the outside world is a big scary place? I'm only asking cos dogs can easily overheat. And Poms do come from Poland where it gets way colder than it ever does here.


Well he doesn't shiver when he has a jumper on so I'm guessing it's the cold that he doesn't like. He doesn't have much body fat as I think he's still a little underweight and his fur isn't actually as thick as it usually would be for a Pomeranian of his age (his parents had pretty thin coats).


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## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

Dogs do get cold! Being so tiny and close to the floor too he would need some kind of coat, even with all that fur. layful I've been using various thicknesses of coat or my pooch depending on the weather, it's not worth him getting cold just for the look is it?


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

April Pearl said:


> I do! Will check them out as I'd like a jacket with a lead attachment for him but can't find the right size


 You can get what you need from both of those groups. Some of the items on the boutique one are not to my taste but they do have some that would suit what you are looking for. My Yorkie is 4kg now and so it's easy to get things for her.


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## Kittynanna (Feb 15, 2015)

April Pearl said:


> Good advice, thank you. What sort of dog is Harvey? A yorkie? Would love to see a picture. ETA: Just realised he is probably the dog in your profile picture - if so he is very cute and I see why he gets so much attention!
> 
> Jasper may be around 4lbs fully grown as his mum is 4.5lbs and his dad is 3lbs.


Yes Harvey is a Yorkie and pictured in my profile ....he wears an Ancol harness in XS and it's adjusted very small, we had awful trouble getting a harness for him when he was younger...I think we ended up with a ferret harness, but not ideal.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

DanWalkersmum said:


> Dogs do get cold! Being so tiny and close to the floor too he would need some kind of coat, even with all that fur. layful I've been using various thicknesses of coat or my pooch depending on the weather, it's not worth him getting cold just for the look is it?


Not worth it at all! I expect when he's bigger he will be more resilient but it may still be a good idea to have a coat in very cold weather.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Jobeth said:


> You can get what you need from both of those groups. Some of the items on the boutique one are not to my taste but they do have some that would suit what you are looking for. My Yorkie is 4kg now and so it's easy to get things for her.


Thanks, I'll sure I will find something. I really just want quite practical and plain looking harnesses/coats for Jasper and a lot of the time the boutique clothes you find are very girly/pretty but hopefully there's some more plain items.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Kittynanna said:


> Yes Harvey is a Yorkie and pictured in my profile ....he wears an Ancol harness in XS and it's adjusted very small, we had awful trouble getting a harness for him when he was younger...I think we ended up with a ferret harness, but not ideal.


He's very sweet. I don't see Yorkies very often, come to think of it. Jasper also has a ferret harness but he's only worn it once. I think he preferred it because it was more lightweight but I worried it put too much pressure on his neck if he were to pull on it. I'm sure there are lots of different kinds of ferret harnesses though so I probably could have found a better one but the eBay harness seems to work well.


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## Kittynanna (Feb 15, 2015)

As long as you have something that fits him safely and comfortably......he is so sweet, it’s lovely reading how Jasper is doing.
My Harvey loves his jumpers, he needs them as he definitely feels the cold, he moans when we take it off him.

He’s not too impressed with is coat though....nothing really to do with coat...just that he know it means RAIN !!!


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Thought I’d ask here instead of making a new thread for this. Jasper loves to be around me, follows me, climbs onto my lap and sleeps on me etc... But he doesn’t seem to enjoy being stroked/petted. It’s not that he’s afraid of us touching him but whenever hands get too close to him, he ‘attacks’ them (playfully, of course!). Hands are basically his favourite chew toys right now (feet come a close second). I don’t think he really understands the concept of being petted - not sure if this is normal for a puppy or not! I’m fine with it if he will never enjoy being stroked etc but I wondered whether it’s normal.

Also, he doesn’t like being carried. He’s fine being picked up for maybe 30 seconds or so but after that he begins squirming like crazy and has to be bribed with treats to stay still. I’m fine with having a dog who doesn’t like being picked up but it’s a little difficult while he’s a puppy as he does need to be carried sometimes. He needs carried upstairs and downstairs as he isn’t big enough to climb stairs and I also have to carry him for the 5 minute walk to the park as he doesn’t get walking on a leash yet and we’d never get there otherwise! Again, I wondered if this is common? What can I do to help him to better tolerate this necessary evil occasionally?

Love him to pieces regardless! He’s his own little person and I’ll interact with him on his own terms whenever possible.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> Thought I'd ask here instead of making a new thread for this. Jasper loves to be around me, follows me, climbs onto my lap and sleeps on me etc... But he doesn't seem to enjoy being stroked/petted. It's not that he's afraid of us touching him but whenever hands get too close to him, he 'attacks' them (playfully, of course!). Hands are basically his favourite chew toys right now (feet come a close second). I don't think he really understands the concept of being petted - not sure if this is normal for a puppy or not! I'm fine with it if he will never enjoy being stroked etc but I wondered whether it's normal.
> 
> Also, he doesn't like being carried. He's fine being picked up for maybe 30 seconds or so but after that he begins squirming like crazy and has to be bribed with treats to stay still. I'm fine with having a dog who doesn't like being picked up but it's a little difficult while he's a puppy as he does need to be carried sometimes. He needs carried upstairs and downstairs as he isn't big enough to climb stairs and I also have to carry him for the 5 minute walk to the park as he doesn't get walking on a leash yet and we'd never get there otherwise! Again, I wondered if this is common? What can I do to help him to better tolerate this necessary evil occasionally?
> 
> Love him to pieces regardless! He's his own little person and I'll interact with him on his own terms whenever possible.


The short answer is do not pick him up.. 
The best advice I can give to any toy breed owners is all touch needs to be positive. 
As a young puppy he doesn't need a walk in a park. He needs to get used to what's going on outside his own front door and have confidence to feel pavement under his feet, get familiar with the closest sights and sounds in your area.. The park for exercise will come in later. So no need to worry about that especially after you have had to handle him getting a harness on. He won't know how to walk on a lead no puppy does, but that's where treats patience and no aim to your walk comes in. It's about traffic, smells it's all socialisation with his environment. He may stop a lot it's normal at his age.

Treats I mean kibble, or walk before feeding so he's hungry and use part of his meal.

He maybe small but you have to imagine you have a great dane on the end of the lead or at home that you can't pick up.. So then think how you would 'train/encourage' that size dog. Picking up isn't an option.

Over time Jasper trusting you and building a relationship he may be that dog that wants a fuss a lot, he might not be and over time with patience and trust he should be fine having to be picked up if necessary. Too much now where puppies are less confident, then you may get a lot of behavioural problems, a stereotypical snappy toy breed which is so far from what most toy breeders describe their breed as.


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

If you ever do have to pick him up, say a word/ phrase before you do to warn him so it's not person leaning over and picking up out of the blue. Cad's cue is "up up" and I use this both for him to jump up on something, and if I'm ever going to pick him up. If he's okay with being picked up his consent behaviour when I say that is to do a little jump in the air, sort of into my arms. If he doesn't do this and stays firmly planted on the floor I stop, stand up straight, take a step back, and reassess the situation to see what is bothering him. And if the situation is super urgent for his own safety for whatever reason, at least I have given that warning.

I never pick him up without saying that first, even if it's something really minor like helping him over something on a walk.

I have done this from the start, and he learnt quickly. The consent behaviour came pretty quickly once he realised I wouldn't force it.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

lullabydream said:


> The short answer is do not pick him up..
> The best advice I can give to any toy breed owners is all touch needs to be positive.
> As a young puppy he doesn't need a walk in a park. He needs to get used to what's going on outside his own front door and have confidence to feel pavement under his feet, get familiar with the closest sights and sounds in your area.. The park for exercise will come in later. So no need to worry about that especially after you have had to handle him getting a harness on. He won't know how to walk on a lead no puppy does, but that's where treats patience and no aim to your walk comes in. It's about traffic, smells it's all socialisation with his environment. He may stop a lot it's normal at his age.
> 
> ...


Thank you, solid advice. I am trying not to pick him up wherever possible and I guess we can skip the park - I just thought that was a good place for him to see. We're going to have to do some leash training so that he can get further than the area immediately in front of our house lol as at his age he has to see lots of different places.

Only problem is that he sleeps in my room because he doesn't like to sleep alone. My bedroom is on the first floor so I have to carry him up a flight of stairs to get up to it (and to get down again).


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Torin. said:


> If you ever do have to pick him up, say a word/ phrase before you do to warn him so it's not person leaning over and picking up out of the blue. Cad's cue is "up up" and I use this both for him to jump up on something, and if I'm ever going to pick him up. If he's okay with being picked up his consent behaviour when I say that is to do a little jump in the air, sort of into my arms. If he doesn't do this and stays firmly planted on the floor I stop, stand up straight, take a step back, and reassess the situation to see what is bothering him. And if the situation is super urgent for his own safety for whatever reason, at least I have given that warning.
> 
> I never pick him up without saying that first, even if it's something really minor like helping him over something on a walk.
> 
> I have done this from the start, and he learnt quickly. The consent behaviour came pretty quickly once he realised I wouldn't force it.


Thank you. A cue is a good idea. Will have to be a hand signal for Jasper as he is deaf but it will work in the same way. Not sure what hand signal to use but will have a think.


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> Thank you. A cue is a good idea. Will have to be a hand signal for Jasper as he is deaf but it will work in the same way. Not sure what hand signal to use but will have a think.


Pat your chest or your hip maybe?


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> I just thought that was a good place for him to see.


 it will be in time but you seem to have spoke about socialisation, this isn't about meeting and greeting other dogs and people it's about getting to know his environment around him. I would say even more so because he's deaf to some degree... The more he experiences in the 'real world' now the better for him. Many people do come here with views to getting a dog and a park just across the road, which yes good on days when time is a limited but honestly I do worry how much real socialisation these dogs get, or rather bad if that's the correct term, socialisation.


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

April Pearl said:


> Thank you. A cue is a good idea. Will have to be a hand signal for Jasper as he is deaf but it will work in the same way. Not sure what hand signal to use but will have a think.


I would use a body cue i.e. touch Jasper in a certain way, leave a pause, and then safely lift. For example my cue for Cad to lift up a front leg is to lightly touch the back of the leg in question in a certain way. But when you're teaching it only lift a few cm off the floor to teach the meaning.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2020)

lullabydream said:


> it will be in time but you seem to have spoke about socialisation, this isn't about meeting and greeting other dogs and people it's about getting to know his environment around him. I would say even more so because he's deaf to some degree... The more he experiences in the 'real world' now the better for him. Many people do come here with views to getting a dog and a park just across the road, which yes good on days when time is a limited but honestly I do worry how much real socialisation these dogs get, or rather bad if that's the correct term, socialisation.


Thank you. I just took him for a walk around the block today. I've tried to do that before but he at the time did not get far because he spent most of the time just sniffing around/trying to eat inappropriate items. However today he actually managed to walk around the block! He has never properly walked on the lead before this. I think it helped that whenever a car went past on the road he would try to chase it and whenever someone walked in front of us he would run after their feet lol. It should have been a 10 minute walk but ended up being 30 minutes... I hope that is ok, seeing as he is only meant to walk for 15 mins a day at his age, but he was enjoying himself so I felt it would be mean to turn back - even after the 30mins he wanted to keep going!

Despite not being in the park lots of people still stopped to see him - I lose count of how many! I was watching him carefully to check that he was not overwhelmed but he was very keen to greet each person and ran after them when they walked away. So, I think he is ok with it and it is good for him to meet different people, although from what you say different places are more important.

I will have to think of other places we can walk to from my house.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2020)

ForestWomble said:


> Pat your chest or your hip maybe?





Torin. said:


> I would use a body cue i.e. touch Jasper in a certain way, leave a pause, and then safely lift. For example my cue for Cad to lift up a front leg is to lightly touch the back of the leg in question in a certain way. But when you're teaching it only lift a few cm off the floor to teach the meaning.


Thank you both. Maybe a hand signal and a body cue together would give him extra warning!


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2020)

I guess another question I have is: what can we do about the play biting? Or will it just go away on its own? The breeder encouraged him to bite/chew on her fingers and he does this rather a lot now (i.e. whenever he can!) I didn't want to do anything drastic when we had just got him back so have just been trying to distract with chew toys but he usually ignores them in favour of fingers! Saying ouch obviously will not work seeing as he is deaf and the only other suggestions I have seen are putting him in time out in an exercise pen (which I think would make him hate being picked up even more so would like to avoid) and walking out of the room (which is difficult as he follows!). On the bright side, since we have all taken to wearing wellies inside he no longer attacks our feet - though of course he does if he ever sees a foot out of a welly!


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

AprilPearl said:


> Thank you both. Maybe a hand signal and a body cue together would give him extra warning!


Try not to over-complicate any cues.

Firstly because you don't want to waste an easy cue on something that already has something else or later on you'll have to get complicated sooner.
But also because you want the meaning to be clear to Jasper, and for your communication to be fluid. Part of that is learning the body movements yourself, so that they become subconscious or second nature, rather than having to consciously plan each action in your life. Each extra step for a cue results in at least 2 more stages where you could mess it up, which will slow both of your learnings, and reduce communication channels.

The reason I suggested a body touch is because if you are then going on to lift him up, that's essentially the same thing. It's easier to teach your human brain that touch the dog cues = touch the dog movements. A cue that flows with the intended outcome, and is then clearer for the dog.

I gently touch Cadvan's leg for his leg lifting cue because the situations I need him to lift his front legs are for getting over the head harnesses and doing health checks. Both of those things require me to either guide his leg in the air, or handle his leg and/or foot to check. When I touch his leg he immediately lifts it up (if he's happy to, same consent behaviour as picking up), and I haven't had to do any extra confusing or offputting wriggling to sort myself out as my hand is immediately in the right place.

If it was me needing a body cue for picking up Cadvan I would use 'me bending over him and touching my hands together and to the underside of his chest'. Because that is where I will then go on to lift/ restrain him during the actual picking up part. So it's one single flowing movement to touch both hands there, withdraw for a couple of seconds so that he can process, and then put my hands back for the actual lift.

Do you see what I mean about flowing cues that are easy for all?


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2020)

Torin. said:


> Try not to over-complicate any cues.
> 
> Firstly because you don't want to waste an easy cue on something that already has something else or later on you'll have to get complicated sooner.
> But also because you want the meaning to be clear to Jasper, and for your communication to be fluid. Part of that is learning the body movements yourself, so that they become subconscious or second nature, rather than having to consciously plan each action in your life. Each extra step for a cue results in at least 2 more stages where you could mess it up, which will slow both of your learnings, and reduce communication channels.
> ...


That all makes perfect sense, thank you. I suppose touching his chest could be a body cue for Jasper as well since I have to touch him there to pick him up anyway.

Will definitely try to implement a pick up cue for Jasper. The only thing is that he does not seem to mind being picked up in itself so much as being held for longer than he would like (e.g. to carry him upstairs). He will not try to avoid being picked up or seem afraid when he realises it is about to happen and initially he is fine with being held but after about 30 seconds, maybe longer, he does start to squirm and want down. Not sure if a cue will help with this aspect of it.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

AprilPearl said:


> it is good for him to meet different people,


From a distance yes, but not all in one walk..


AprilPearl said:


> he was very keen to greet each person and ran after them when they walked away


See this trying to run after them part the more he practices this, the better he gets unfortunately not everyone loves dogs and to be honest, only person has to overwhelm him, which takes very little to make a dog afraid of people. Or if he carries on want to approach people he sees, when he gains confidence the older he gets that's when the barking, trying to wiggle out of harness and jumping etc begins at the end of the lead and you will be that dog owner who can't walk their dog easily because as soon as a person is on the horizon you have a dog who zone's in hey a person to say hello to. Jasper needs to know he shares the same environment as human and this goes for dogs too, so carry on walking him. Yes he maybe deaf but strangers don't know that just don't stop carry on walking encouraging him talking as to him saying come on can't say hello to everyone that sort of thing.

As for the nipping/biting walking out the room works but as puppy's seem to pick up unwanted behaviour more quickly by practicing usually because we are more aware of unwanted behaviour though it does take time. Yes he will follow, might be gripping your ankle but you can do it and the barrier of a door gives a clear signal play stops. Mum dog would have removed herself similar, and well rounded dogs do this with other dogs moving away means playtime ends. It's about one of the only things I kind of agree to 'simulate' in dog to dog language so to say.
As you say puppy play pen would be touch unless you used a house line but then if you wanted to use the puppy play pen for a safe space ie if you nipped to the toilet, when you nipped out shopping it shouldn't be used as a safe spot and 'punishment'
Just keep rinsing and repeating. Plus everyone in the household need to be doing this

Edit to add nipping/biting puppy's need training with this, they don't just grow out of it


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

lullabydream said:


> From a distance yes, but not all in one walk..
> 
> See this trying to run after them part the more he practices this, the better he gets unfortunately not everyone loves dogs and to be honest, only person has to overwhelm him, which takes very little to make a dog afraid of people. Or if he carries on want to approach people he sees, when he gains confidence the older he gets that's when the barking, trying to wiggle out of harness and jumping etc begins at the end of the lead and you will be that dog owner who can't walk their dog easily because as soon as a person is on the horizon you have a dog who zone's in hey a person to say hello to. Jasper needs to know he shares the same environment as human and this goes for dogs too, so carry on walking him. Yes he maybe deaf but strangers don't know that just don't stop carry on walking encouraging him talking as to him saying come on can't say hello to everyone that sort of thing.


This sounds sensible. Not entirely sure what I can do if people stop to talk though - just say I have somewhere to be?



lullabydream said:


> From a distance yes, but not all in one walk..
> 
> As for the nipping/biting walking out the room works but as puppy's seem to pick up unwanted behaviour more quickly by practicing usually because we are more aware of unwanted behaviour though it does take time. Yes he will follow, might be gripping your ankle but you can do it and the barrier of a door gives a clear signal play stops. Mum dog would have removed herself similar, and well rounded dogs do this with other dogs moving away means playtime ends. It's about one of the only things I kind of agree to 'simulate' in dog to dog language so to say.
> As you say puppy play pen would be touch unless you used a house line but then if you wanted to use the puppy play pen for a safe space ie if you nipped to the toilet, when you nipped out shopping it shouldn't be used as a safe spot and 'punishment'
> ...


So would you say that walking out of the room is better than putting him in a playpen? If I am continually putting him in a playpen do you think that it will it make him more nervous of being picked up?

With walking out of the room, it is quite literally impossible to get through the door without him also getting through because he is very fast and then I cannot shut the door on him. Don't really want to use a house line as he'd then have to be in a harness all the time.

Also, supposing I did come up with some way that I could get through the door without him also getting through: there may be a good 20 seconds between him biting and me getting out the door - will he even be able to connect the biting with me leaving as cause and effect?


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> This sounds sensible. Not entirely sure what I can do if people stop to talk though - just say I have somewhere to be?
> 
> So would you say that walking out of the room is better than putting him in a playpen? If I am continually putting him in a playpen do you think that it will it make him more nervous of being picked up?
> 
> ...


Honestly I would start using a house line with him, yes it means he has a harness on all day but honestly I think it will help getting him used to being touch or he will start running you a merry dance by running away when you do need to pick him up. It's not going to be fun

As for using play pens, for safety yep use them but they work as same as a crate that a dog has to acclimatise to them and enjoy being in there to be honest. So you do things similar to how you would with a crate, play, etc so its a good place to be left and they like it


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2020)

McKenzie's cue/consent for being picked up is I just hold my hands out in front of her and if she walks between them I pick her up, and if she doesn't then I don't. I don't think I have a verbal cue.

Try using a baby gate to allow you to get away from him when he gets nippy - most people can just step over them (although I'm on the short side so it takes a bit of effort!). Just check that the style you buy has the bars close enough that he can't get through or get stuck, otherwise you might need to attach something over the bottom of it.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

McKenzie said:


> McKenzie's cue/consent for being picked up is I just hold my hands out in front of her and if she walks between them I pick her up, and if she doesn't then I don't. I don't think I have a verbal cue.
> 
> Try using a baby gate to allow you to get away from him when he gets nippy - most people can just step over them (although I'm on the short side so it takes a bit of effort!). Just check that the style you buy has the bars close enough that he can't get through or get stuck, otherwise you might need to attach something over the bottom of it.


Tried just to quote you a bit but my phone isn't playing.. Sorry @McKenzie 
I do exactly the hand thing with Harley as she was tiny and did like to get up on the sofa and couldn't do stairs.. So it didn't start out as a cue but everyone would say at first do you want to come up, or are you coming up. Occasionally we would have a pause and she would have to consider it.. Even if she was vocal about getting up then she wiggles into my hands but it was seeing my hands to be honest, she knew she would be picked up.

She can now use her stairs and jump on the sofa but still we have a bit of communication going if she thinks she can't jump on the sofa with the other dogs and me, hands come down and she gets picks up but as you do @McKenzie it's a choice really.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2020)

Well I decided to implement the 'walking out of the room when he bites' plan.

We have used pieces of playpen to fence off an area just in front of each door so that you have to step over the fence in order to get through the door. This allows us to walk out of the room without him following.

I do like the baby gate idea though @McKenzie so may invest in some of those. @lullabydream I do appreciate the suggestion of a house line and may get one eventually but want to see if this works first. He doesn't run away from being picked up and will help me to pick him up by climbing further onto my hand/arm when he realises what I am doing so I think we are doing ok with touch, he just doesn't like being carried for long.

I have removed my wellies so that he has a chance to bite my feet (and learn that it leads to me walking out). I have been walking out every time he pounces on my feet. He does unfortunately wait for me to come back in and jump on my feet as soon as I do... Meaning I have to leave straight away again. Rinse and repeat. He seems to think it's a game! However, I do hope that it will eventually work.

One thing just happened, however. He bit my foot, so I detached my foot and began to walk out. As I was walking I felt him catch the back of my sock in his teeth but did not have time to stop myself from lifting up my foot. Well he must have stayed latched on to my sock because when I turned around I saw him stuck head first in the waste paper basket (which I must have stepped over) with his little legs waving in the air. It's kind of funny now that I know he's ok (at least I hope he's ok, he seems ok) but wow I was scared he might have broken his neck or something. Must walk more slowly in future!


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Ok I am so confused but I think I have figured it out. This is probably a question for the mods @SusieRainbow but.. I appear to have two accounts! One (this account) is called 'April[space]Pearl' and one is called 'AprilPearl'. Oops. It seems as though I created the 'AprilPearl' account, forgot that I had made it, then made another account (the 'April[space]Pearl' account) with which I began posting about Jasper. But, both accounts must have the same password and I appear to have logged in to the 'AprilPearl' account and posted on this thread from that account several times, presumably because when trying to log in I forgot what my username was exactly and didn't put in a space. So, if anyone is confused about why I have posted from two different accounts in this thread, that is the (confusing!) explanation of why. Sorry, it's probably a rule that multiple accounts are not allowed! I should probably get the 'AprilPearl' account deactivated.

ETA: Actually, both accounts were made on the same day in 2018. Now that I come to think of it, this account (the April[space]Pearl account) used to have my full name as a user name by accident. I may have created the 'AprilPearl' account after realising I had used my full name for the first account but when I came back to the forum in 2019 for Jasper I forgot about the 'AprilPearl' account and logged in with this account and had its username changed from my full name to 'April[space]Pearl'. However it happened, I'm sorry!


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> Ok I am so confused but I think I have figured it out. This is probably a question for the mods @SusieRainbow but.. I appear to have two accounts! One (this account) is called 'April[space]Pearl' and one is called 'AprilPearl'. Oops. It seems as though I created the 'AprilPearl' account, forgot that I had made it, then made another account (the 'April[space]Pearl' account) with which I began posting about Jasper. But, both accounts must have the same password and I appear to have logged in to the 'AprilPearl' account and posted on this thread from that account several times, presumably because when trying to log in I forgot what my username was exactly and didn't put in a space. So, if anyone is confused about why I have posted from two different accounts in this thread, that is the (confusing!) explanation of why. Sorry, it's probably a rule that multiple accounts are not allowed! I should probably get the 'AprilPearl' account deactivated.
> 
> ETA: Actually, both accounts were made on the same day in 2018. Now that I come to think of it, this account (the April[space]Pearl account) used to have my full name as a user name by accident. I may have created the 'AprilPearl' account after realising I had used my full name for the first account but when I came back to the forum in 2019 for Jasper I forgot about the 'AprilPearl' account and logged in with this account and had its username changed from my full name to 'April[space]Pearl'. However it happened, I'm sorry!


Don't worry about it, I'll delete the 'AprilPearl one, it will show you up as 'guest', and carry on using April (space)Pearl.Come to think of it, when I changed your user name it did say 'AprilPearl' was taken which is why you got April(space)Pearl !


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

SusieRainbow said:


> Don't worry about it, I'll delete the 'AprilPearl one, it will show you up as 'guest', and carry on using April (space)Pearl.Come to think of it, when I changed your user name it did say 'AprilPearl' was taken which is why you got April(space)Pearl !


Thank you, so much less confusing! I kept thinking 'why does it think I didn't start this thread?' Lol


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## Kittynanna (Feb 15, 2015)

It’s just just puppy mischievous behaviour, I remember Harvey when he was little, when my husband put his trainers on, he would bite on to them and keep hold while hubby walked very very carefully....it was so funny to watch, he used to jump in my garden pots and dig the soil, bum in the air...you could see where he’d been in the garden by the scattered soil, he’d grab my plants and tug the leaves as he walked past, he’d try to pinch your slipper and run, but was only little so couldn’t carry far...happy memories.....enjoy him while he’s little x


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Kittynanna said:


> It's just just puppy mischievous behaviour, I remember Harvey when he was little, when my husband put his trainers on, he would bite on to them and keep hold while hubby walked very very carefully....it was so funny to watch, he used to jump in my garden pots and dig the soil, bum in the air...you could see where he'd been in the garden by the scattered soil, he'd grab my plants and tug the leaves as he walked past, he'd try to pinch your slipper and run, but was only little so couldn't carry far...happy memories.....enjoy him while he's little x


Jasper adores slippers too! So, do you think I shouldn't walk out when he goes for my feet, then (which is very often)? I hadn't been but from what @lullabydream said it sounded as though I should (but maybe that was targeted more at the hand biting and I misunderstood?)


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> Jasper adores slippers too! So, do you think I shouldn't walk out when he goes for my feet, then (which is very often)? I hadn't been but from what @lullabydream said it sounded as though I should (but maybe that was targeted more at the hand biting and I misunderstood?)


Any nipping/biting towards use, you should go out the room.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

lullabydream said:


> Any nipping/biting towards use, you should go out the room.


Thank you. That's what I started doing yesterday so I'll persevere!


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Oh I forgot to mention but the insurance has paid the RVC bill! Just waiting to see if it will pay for Jasper’s overnight stay at the out of hours vets but given they paid for his week at RVC I imagine it will pay for this too. There is a 20% excess which we have to pay but it’s certainly better than nothing.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> Oh I forgot to mention but the insurance has paid the RVC bill! Just waiting to see if it will pay for Jasper's overnight stay at the out of hours vets but given they paid for his week at RVC I imagine it will pay for this too. There is a 20% excess which we have to pay but it's certainly better than nothing.


How much is the breeder paying you? As 20% excess is still quite a large percentage when he came to you poorly


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

lullabydream said:


> How much is the breeder paying you? As 20% excess is still quite a large percentage when he came to you poorly


I think nothing. She said if our insurance didn't pay she'd try to get money off her insurance but although we mentioned the excess she never offered to pay it or anything.


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

AprilPearl said:


> Well I decided to implement the 'walking out of the room when he bites' plan.
> 
> We have used pieces of playpen to fence off an area just in front of each door so that you have to step over the fence in order to get through the door. This allows us to walk out of the room without him following.
> 
> ...


The bit in bold really gave me a giggle, thank you, I needed that today!


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

ForestWomble said:


> The bit in bold really gave me a giggle, thank you, I needed that today!


Once I realised he was ok I could have died laughing! Hasn't seemed to have put him off attacking feet which you might expect it to have done


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Well I have another Jasper update!

As I explained earlier, we were having trouble getting him to go to the toilet outside. He seems to get really distracted when outside in the garden and just wants to run around exploring. There was also the problem that it's really difficult to tell whether he is peeing since he does not squat to pee and the grass is already wet so the tiny amounts of wee he produces wouldn't show up on it. And since he was so small and it was quite cold and wet I did worry about standing outside with him for long periods waiting for him to go.

To cut a long story short, we ended up training him on pee pads inside. I know that's a big no no and I feel so guilty about it. He really seems to have the hang of pee pads now and rarely has accidents.

Since the weather is warmer now, I had the idea of putting a pad outside and taking him to it to do his business. Unfortunately, even on the lead he would not stay on the pad. He still got very distracted and pulled to get away and cried. I worried he might hurt himself or become afraid of the lead (which he already doesn't like).

BUT I seem to have come up with a solution. I have a pad outside and I have put a little fence around it (made up put of the sides of an exercise pen). I have begun taking him to the pad when I know he will probably go (he seems to pee about every 20 minutes. I know he can hold on for longer but at the moment I am taking him out every 20 minutes) and, with the fence there, he doesn't get distracted and so far has gone to the toilet pretty much immediately each time.

Now, I know that both the pee pad and the fence are probably not good but I am using them in the short term just to get him used to the idea that he goes outside. Once he is used to that, I will get rid of the fence and start to reduce the size of the pee pad (or maybe get rid of it altogether).

One problem is that he sleeps in an exercise pen which has a bed and pee pad in it. The exercise pen was initially only meant to be for when he had to be left alone for an hour or more, but we found that he would settle there and it is the only place that he will sleep through the night. So, that's where he sleeps. But, of course, it has a pee pad in it which he does use at night/immediately on waking. So, I am trying to get him crate trained.

I have put his crate on the floor of my room with his bed inside it and he does go in it of his own accord (for which I reward him with a treat). He climbed inside and slept in it of his own accord for the first time yesterday evening! I have also successfully managed to leave him in the crate for about 5 minutes on a few occasions during which he usually goes to sleep or dozes. I don't want him to get afraid of the crate so we haven't done overnight yet.

Jasper went to his first puppy class two days ago and it was great. I think he had a really good time because he ate more chicken than he's ever had before in his life!

He's been seeing different areas in the neighbourhood and he seems to really enjoy his walks. One problem I do have is that he hasn't got the hang of walking on the leash yet. I really do need to teach him heel, but that's been a bit difficult so I hope puppy classes might help with that. He stops for every person or dog that walks past and wants to go and say hello to them which is also something we need to work on.

Health wise, he is doing really well. He was 590g yesterday so probably 600g or more today! That's almost double what he was when I first brought him home all sick and underweight. Very proud of him.

My lap seems to be his favourite place to sleep during the day, but my slipper is still a bed.









I have to admit that I (probably rightly) feel like an awful owner for not starting proper toilet training and crate training before now (he's 14 weeks old now!!!). We were just having so many problems with it and I was worried about him what with the weather and how ill he had been. I'm one of those incompetent dog owners aren't I? I don't want to fail him but I feel like I have. After all he's been through I'm sure he deserved a better owner than me!

I work part time in a school library and I have to go back to work next week. I hope Jasper will be ok because he will be alone for 3 hours probably. Hours can be flexible so if that's going to be a huge problem I can try and bring it down to 2 hours away temporarily. Once he's older he will have to cope with more like 4 hours but I wouldn't do that to him now.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Don't be so hard on yourelf, you're doing your best and it's working for you and Jasper. Plenty of time for fine tuning as he gets bigger and the weather improves, it sounds as though he and you are making great progress.
He's looking wonderful !


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

I wouldn’t worry to much toilet training will come he has been so poorly he is bound to be behind. Loki took ages to toilet train all my fault not his I thought he would never get it but he did. Have you got a camera for when you are out ? I would start building up to going out more. Start now see how he reacts. Is anyone else home ? He will be fine I am sure.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

@SusieRainbow and @Boxer123 thank you so much for your reassurance re toilet training. I have removed the pee pad from outside and he is still peeing there! We can tell he is peeing because we have him going on a paved area of the garden rather than on the grass. He has only pooped outside once but we are getting there.

We still have a pee pad by the back door and unfortunately he is just too well pee pad trained because he keeps peeing on it even when I KNOW he doesn't have to pee (like, 5mins after he peed outside). I suspect he just wants a treat. I will remove the pee pad in a few days but I have kept it there for now because if he's going to have an accident inside I'd rather it be there than on the floor.

Poos are a bit more difficult to catch because he does often just poo on the pee pad after weeing outside. His poos are quite random unlike his wees which he will do every 20 minutes like clockwork which makes it hard to get him outside for them.

The fact he still sleeps overnight in an exercise on with a pee pad in it does also complicate things as he usually poops on waking. But he is growing to like his crate and has climbed inside to sleep on a number of occasions. I am hoping to work up to him sleeping in it overnight.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> Have you got a camera for when you are out ? I would start building up to going out more. Start now see how he reacts. Is anyone else home ? He will be fine I am sure.


Yes, we do have a camera actually! We've worked up to leaving him for up to an hour and a half now watching him on the camera to check he's ok (he just goes to sleep which is good). My mum works part time but we overlap so that's not altogether useful.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

SusieRainbow said:


> it sounds as though he and you are making great progress.
> He's looking wonderful !


Thank you! I'm feeding him quite a lot because I'm conscious that he is quite far behind where he should be in terms of size. I hope that feeding him more will enable him to reach a larger adult size than he otherwise would have done and therefore be much healthier.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Asleep in his crate earlier today (sweet success!)









He looks so silly with his tongue out!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

April Pearl said:


> Asleep in his crate earlier today (sweet success!)
> View attachment 430049
> 
> 
> ...


He is lovely. You might find when he is able to walk further he will poop more outside you get in a bit of a routine.


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## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

Jasper is doing so well! I personally would not do away with the pee pads in a hurry, especially as it is winter. I found them a good thing as they got Dan used to going in a certain place (by the back door), we didn't entirely remove them until he hadn't used them for a week or so. It might have taken a little longer I don't know, but he did get clean!! Cleaning up was also less stressful and mess was contained to the pad. (win win) Same goes for the lead, we used to walk Dan round the garden (it's very small) on the lead a few times a day, to get him used to being on lead.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Oh bless ! 
I agree, don't change anything too quickly, he's doing fine and so are you.
One think I would suggest is partly covering the crate with a blanket to make it cosy and den like, also keep draughts out.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> He is lovely. You might find when he is able to walk further he will poop more outside you get in a bit of a routine.


I think you're right about there being a correlation between walking and pooping. He pooed on his walk yesterday and today he pooed (in the garden!) straight after his walk.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

DanWalkersmum said:


> Jasper is doing so well! I personally would not do away with the pee pads in a hurry, especially as it is winter. I found them a good thing as they got Dan used to going in a certain place (by the back door), we didn't entirely remove them until he hadn't used them for a week or so. It might have taken a little longer I don't know, but he did get clean!! Cleaning up was also less stressful and mess was contained to the pad. (win win) Same goes for the lead, we used to walk Dan round the garden (it's very small) on the lead a few times a day, to get him used to being on lead.





SusieRainbow said:


> Oh bless !
> I agree, don't change anything too quickly, he's doing fine and so are you.
> One think I would suggest is partly covering the crate with a blanket to make it cosy and den like, also keep draughts out.


Thank you both. I had been a bit worried about leaving the pee pads for much longer because of all the bad things you hear about them on the internet but they are certainly helping him not to just go ANYWHERE in the house. I'm taking him outside every 20 minutes (except when he's sleeping obviously) so he isn't going much on the pee pads anyway (except at night since there is a pee pad in his exercise pen) but it does give a good indication that he needs to go out when he starts heading for a pee pad!

I'll give the blanket over the crate idea a go. He certainly doesn't seem to mind sleeping in there during the day so if he goes to sleep in his crate this evening I may leave him and see if he will spend the night there.

If he sleeps in his crate tonight, I suspect that he will need to be taken out to go to the toilet in the night - how often do you think he would need to go out? He gets fed his last meal at 9pm, then bed time around 10 to 10:30pm, breakfast at 7am.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Update on the toilet training: Jasper has managed to pee outside a few times whilst outside of the little fenced area (and just on his lead). Previously he would get too distracted and not go to the toilet which was why I put up the little fence for him.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Jasper has a baer test booked for either the 16th or the 19th of February, I don't remember which. It'll be interesting to know if he is actually deaf or not. I cant make up my mind on whether he is deaf! Sometimes I think he's reacted to a noise but then it could have been movement he has reacted to. Most of the time he doesn't react to sound but could that just be normal puppy behaviour?

Calling his name (or saying anything else loudly) doesn't wake him, but perhaps all puppies are deep sleepers?

He doesn't seem to notice loud noises like traffic or hoovering but maybe they just don't worry him.

I have taught him a hand signal for come which he knows really well and he comes to me whenever I do the sign. I also say "come" every time I do the sign so he should connect the verbal command with the hand signal if he can hear but he doesn't come to me when all I do is say "come" without giving the hand signal.

I have heard that you should see a puppy's ears moving in response to sound as they walk about but I haven't noticed this with Jasper.

It's a tough one. I am curious to know whether he can hear or not. Of course, it doesn't make a difference to how much I love him if he is deaf (I am working on the assumption that he is) but it would be good to know because if he can hear then that opens up other avenues for training.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Jasper fell asleep in his crate at about 10pm yesterday so I decided to leave him there for the night.

I suspected he would need the toilet at some point during the night but wasn't sure when, so I decided to let him wake me up rather than setting an alarm.

He started to cry at 4:25am and I took him put to pee. He didn't pee which confused me so I waited in the kitchen 20 minutes then took him out again. He only peed a tiny bit which again was confusing.

When we enter back to my room I discovered that he had peed on his bed in his crate. I took out his bed and blanket and replaced them with another bed and blanket.

He barked a little (but he always barks a bit even in his exercise pen if he wakes up a few hours early and decides it's time to get up) but then went back to sleep until we got up at 7am with no more accidents.

So, it's great that he seems to be able to sleep in his crate at night. But, obviously I need to be setting an alarm to wake me up before he pees in it!

If he goes to bed at 10pm, when should I be setting an alarm to take him out during the night? I'm thinking either set an alarm for 2am and then get up at 6am or just set an alarm for 3am?

Also, although the cover of his bed is washable, the pillowy bit inside is not. Can we still reuse the bed that he peed on or will he pee on it again since it may now smell of urine?


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

April Pearl said:


> Also, although the cover of his bed is washable, the pillowy bit inside is not. Can we still reuse the bed that he peed on or will he pee on it again since it may now smell of urine?


Yes, he will pee on it again.
Get another bed that's fully washable, or cut a couple of layers of vet bed and put them inside the outer bit in place of the soiled pillow.
The pillow bit may well be hand washable, and you have nothing to lose by trying.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Burrowzig said:


> Yes, he will pee on it again.
> Get another bed that's fully washable, or cut a couple of layers of vet bed and put them inside the outer bit in place of the soiled pillow.
> The pillow bit may well be hand washable, and you have nothing to lose by trying.


Thank you. He has one other bed which I will use for now but I'll buy another one.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

The other thing you could do is put the crate inside your pen, or adjust the pen so it makes an annexe to the crate and put the pee pad in the pen .
Although it's generally not recommended to use pee pads, with a puppy that's been through what Jasper has, and house training in winter (one of the reasons I'll be sticking to summer pups) I'd be using them too.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Burrowzig said:


> The other thing you could do is put the crate inside your pen, or adjust the pen so it makes an annexe to the crate and put the pee pad in the pen .
> Although it's generally not recommended to use pee pads, with a puppy that's been through what Jasper has, and house training in winter (one of the reasons I'll be sticking to summer pups) I'd be using them too.


Thanks. I'm trying to get him used to not going on pee pads whenever possible so I'd like to be taking him outside rather than him going on pee pads at night except if the weather is ridiculously horrible. Also, he has trouble climbing out of his crate once he's in it so I'm not sure putting the crate in the pen with a pee pad would solve things.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

April Pearl said:


> Thanks. I'm trying to get him used to not going on pee pads whenever possible so I'd like to be taking him outside rather than him going on pee pads at night except if the weather is ridiculously horrible. Also, he has trouble climbing out of his crate once he's in it so I'm not sure putting the crate in the pen with a pee pad would solve things.


Can't he just walk through the open door?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Burrowzig said:


> Can't he just walk through the open door?


The door to the crate is kind of raised so not flush on the floor. His bed is also a bit raised and he seems to get a little worried about climbing down and usually needs to be helped.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

So a mat at the bottom of the crate that brings it up to the level of the door would be better, with some washable blankets around the sides for him to snuggle into.
Something like these https://www.houndsasleep.co.uk/product-page/fleece-flat-beds


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Burrowzig said:


> So a mat at the bottom of the crate that brings it up to the level of the door would be better, with some washable blankets around the sides for him to snuggle into.
> Something like these https://www.houndsasleep.co.uk/product-page/fleece-flat-beds


Oh those look great, thank you!


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Oh dear. I just realised Jasper's crate is probably too big for him which may be why he peed in it last night). I got the smallest crate I could find for him but I guess it wasn't small enough.

Sigh. I've only just got him happy with this crate and now I expect I shall have to get him a different one and the whole process will start again.

Photo attached for reference.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Jasper was lying on his back playing with a toy that I was dangling for him when I saw something red come out of his penis. Of course, I assumed his insides were leaking out or something horrible but then I did some googling and now I know what people mean when they talk about dogs “getting their lipstick out”. I thought that was just a strange expression but now I see how fitting it is - the joys of male dog ownership lol. Isn’t he a bit young to be doing this now, though?


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> Jasper was lying on his back playing with a toy that I was dangling for him when I saw something red come out of his penis. Of course, I assumed his insides were leaking out or something horrible but then I did some googling and now I know what people mean when they talk about dogs "getting their lipstick out". I thought that was just a strange expression but now I see how fitting it is - the joys of male dog ownership lol. Isn't he a bit young to be doing this now, though?


I was very alarmed the first time Bobby's lipstick came on view , even more so when he spent ages washing it ! I thought he was in pain with it ! But now it's part of his morning ablutions, he is very thorough.
I think about 3 months is the time boys discover their bits, as you say, the joys of male dog ownership.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

SusieRainbow said:


> I was very alarmed the first time Bobby's lipstick came on view , even more so when he spent ages washing it ! I thought he was in pain with it ! But now it's part of his morning ablutions, he is very thorough.
> I think about 3 months is the time boys discover their bits, as you say, the joys of male dog ownership.


I feel so silly (but also relieved!) I had no idea that the bit you see usually wasn't all there was to it - or that it would be red!


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> I feel so silly (but also relieved!) I had no idea that the bit you see usually wasn't all there was to it - or that it would be red!


I was surprised too. As an ex-nurse I've seen plenty of male genitalia, all shapes and sizes, but dogs are something else ! OH and I joke that Bobby has a 5th leg .


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

I was alarmed when I saw Bungos 'lipstick' for the first time too, it is rather scary when you don't know what on Earth is going on. :Wideyed


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

ForestWomble said:


> I was alarmed when I saw Bungos 'lipstick' for the first time too, *it is rather scary when you don't know what on Earth is going on*. :Wideyed


You can say that again!


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

Even if you normally use non-bio in the washing machine for human stuff, use bio for anything that's been peed on. The enzymes in the bio powder will help properly remove the urine and associated smell rather than just enough that crappy humans can't smell it. Just remember that bio washing stuff should be done at a maximum of 40c (otherwise the heat will kill the enzymes).


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Torin. said:


> Even if you normally use non-bio in the washing machine for human stuff, use bio for anything that's been peed on. The enzymes in the bio powder will help properly remove the urine and associated smell rather than just enough that crappy humans can't smell it. Just remember that bio washing stuff should be done at a maximum of 40c (otherwise the heat will kill the enzymes).


Thank you. Ugh we've been using non-bio so will need to get some bio


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

It's even more disconcerting when they start to...ermmm...enjoy themselves with their lipstick.......boys are gross :Vomit


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

ForestWomble said:


> I was alarmed when I saw Bungos 'lipstick' for the first time too, it is rather scary when you don't know what on Earth is going on. :Wideyed


 pray it doesnt get stuck beyond the sheath
i had to go help my friend, whose 4 month old gsd x got his stuck, because she allowed him to hump anything and everything, it became swollen and unable to retract
thankfully , he got so excited to see me when i walked in, he forgot all about being sore and panicking, and, it retracted on its own
hes now 7 and still loons when i go round


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

mrs phas said:


> pray it doesnt get stuck beyond the sheath
> i had to go help my friend, whose 4 month old gsd x got his stuck, because she allowed him to hump anything and everything, it became swollen and unable to retract
> thankfully , he got so excited to see me when i walked in, he forgot all about being sore and panicking, and, it retracted on its own
> hes now 7 and still loons when i go round


A friend's young dog got randy round Toffee and his got swollen and stuck. We were outside with the horses so I turned the hose on it and it soon subsided!

April Pearl - what you see externally is the sheath, the penis is retracted inside it and the 'lipstick' is just the tip of the penis unless he gets really excited and the whole lot comes out.


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

I find the weirdest thing about all of this not any of the dog's natural behaviours, but why people are so prudish that the phrase "lipstick" has been coopted in the first place! It must be an American term, as they're much more conservative as a culture about bodies and sex?


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

It's just such a perfect descriptor!


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

I don't think it's necessarily prudish to have alternative names for the genitalia, we all know what we mean . Trust me, after a nursing and midwifery career I've heard them all !
Many of the terms are regional I think.
And as @JoanneF says, lipstick is such a perfect description.


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

I'd never heard the term lipstick until I came online and went into American dog spaces. At first I thought they were referring to something to do with gums xD All my in-person dog experience had been more scientific up until that point haha. I'd be up for knowing more regional terms though :Angelic


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Torin. said:


> I'd never heard the term lipstick until I came online and went into American dog spaces. At first I thought they were referring to something to do with gums xD All my in-person dog experience had been more scientific up until that point haha. I'd be up for knowing more regional terms though :Angelic


We probably need a seperate thread for that.


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

SusieRainbow said:


> We probably need a seperate thread for that.


Oh yes sorry @April Pearl, for some reason I thought we were on the doggy chat thread!


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Sarah H said:


> It's even more disconcerting when they start to...ermmm...enjoy themselves with their lipstick.......boys are gross :Vomit


Lol sounds disconcerting. At least I won't think he's dying though!



mrs phas said:


> pray it doesnt get stuck beyond the sheath


That sounds painful...



Blitz said:


> April Pearl - what you see externally is the sheath, the penis is retracted inside it and the 'lipstick' is just the tip of the penis unless he gets really excited and the whole lot comes out.


Thank you, some googling brought me to that conclusion but I feel so silly for not realising before! I need a course in canine anatomy, clearly.



Torin. said:


> I find the weirdest thing about all of this not any of the dog's natural behaviours, but why people are so prudish that the phrase "lipstick" has been coopted in the first place! It must be an American term, as they're much more conservative as a culture about bodies and sex?


I have to admit, I didn't understand before why people used that term but after seeing Jasper's I understand fully, the resemblance is definitely there! It seems to me to be just a bit of humour rather than necessarily being prudish.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Well last night went well! Jasper went to sleep in his crate at 10pm. I set an alarm for 2am and took Jasper out to go to the toilet. Went back in and he went straight back to sleep. I was going to take him out again at 6am but I noticed that he was awake at 5am so we went out again then. After coming back in and putting him in his crate he let out exactly two barks after he realised I was going back to bed (I reckon he thought it was time to get up!) but then back to sleep again until 6:50am. No accidents! Plus, he’s obviously comfortable with his crate now.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> Well last night went well! Jasper went to sleep in his crate at 10pm. I set an alarm for 2am and took Jasper out to go to the toilet. Went back in and he went straight back to sleep. I was going to take him out again at 6am but I noticed that he was awake at 5am so we went out again then. After coming back in and putting him in his crate he let out exactly two barks after he realised I was going back to bed (I reckon he thought it was time to get up!) but then back to sleep again until 6:50am. No accidents! Plus, he's obviously comfortable with his crate now.


That's fantastic, clever boy !


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Torin. said:


> I find the weirdest thing about all of this not any of the dog's natural behaviours, but why people are so prudish that the phrase "lipstick" has been coopted in the first place! It must be an American term, as they're much more conservative as a culture about bodies and sex?


I had never heard the term till I came on here. It is apt though. Also one of the reasons I do not like owning male dogs!


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Blitz said:


> I had never heard the term till I came on here. It is apt though. Also one of the reasons I do not like owning male dogs!


What are the other reasons? Should I be worried?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

April Pearl said:


> What are the other reasons? Should I be worried?


It is purely a personal choice but I do not like the constant leg cocking that a lot of dogs do. One of my bitches scent marks which is annoying but nothing like a dog. Bitches have always appealed much more to me than dogs all round. But others on here will say the opposite so as I say it is purely personal.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> What are the other reasons? Should I be worried?


Bobby is my first boy. I wanted a male because I thought Reena would respond better , she was quite bitchy and bossy with Tango. It seems to work too, she is more deferential towards Bobby, she has more respect for him and they play together more.
Apart from the 'lipstick' issue there's been no other differences. He usually has a very thorough wash in the morning and that's it, job done.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Blitz said:


> It is purely a personal choice but I do not like the constant leg cocking that a lot of dogs do. One of my bitches scent marks which is annoying but nothing like a dog. Bitches have always appealed much more to me than dogs all round. But others on here will say the opposite so as I say it is purely personal.


Oh good no specific personality traits then? I just knew that I wanted a boy but I couldn't tell you why! Didn't think about the leg cocking etc when making the decision but I can live with all that


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

SusieRainbow said:


> Apart from the 'lipstick' issue there's been no other differences. He usually has a very thorough wash in the morning and that's it, job done.


That's good to hear! I thought gender couldn't impact personality much


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Today on his (short!) walk I had to fish out of Jasper's mouth: one slug, half a nut shell which filled most of his mouth (I think maybe hazel nut?) and, most concerning, a piece of used chewing gum partially wrapped up in silver foil - bit worried about that one since I know chewing gum contains sweeteners which are poisonous to dogs.

During his walks I spend most of my time scanning the ground for potential hazards that he might attempt to eat and Jasper spends most of his time, head down, doing his best to consume said hazards before I get to them!

God knows what he has actually eaten which I haven't managed to catch.

Please tell me they stop eating everything at some point! And please tell me that the chewing gum won't hurt him - don't know how I didn't see it but I got it out of his mouth as soon as I saw it go in.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> Today on his (short!) walk I had to fish out of Jasper's mouth: one slug, half a nut shell which filled most of his mouth (I think maybe hazel nut?) and, most concerning, a piece of used chewing gum partially wrapped up in silver foil - bit worried about that one since I know chewing gum contains sweeteners which are poisonous to dogs.
> 
> During his walks I spend most of my time scanning the ground for potential hazards that he might attempt to eat and Jasper spends most of his time, head down, doing his best to consume said hazards before I get to them!
> 
> ...


I very much doubt he would have ingested any if you got it straight out and it was partly wrapped.
You're right though, sugar free chewing gum contains Xylitol, an artificial sweetener very dangerous to dogs, I think it causes hypoglycaemia.
Would he carry a toy on walks ?
It makes me so cross how people just drop food everywhere, disgusting pigs. I once had to fish a KFC bone out of Tango's mouth, it was 2 feet away from a bin !


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

SusieRainbow said:


> I very much doubt he would have ingested any if you got it straight out and it was partly wrapped.
> You're right though, sugar free chewing gum contains Xylitol, an artificial sweetener very dangerous to dogs, I think it causes hypoglycaemia.
> Would he carry a toy on walks ?
> It makes me so cross how people just drop food everywhere, disgusting pigs. I once had to fish a KFC bone out of Tango's mouth, it was 2 feet away from a bin !


I don't think he managed to swallow any of the actual gum or even had a chance to chew it at all but I thought maybe some of the Xylitol could have been dissolved in his saliva and consequently been ingested that way.

Hypoglycemia? Oh great, exactly what Jasper in particular could do without!

Do they have to ingest a certain amount of Xylitol to become ill?

Is there anything I should be doing like activated charcoal or something?

He wouldn't carry a toy on his walks, no 

It makes me angry the amount of stuff people drop too! Now I am looking at the floor constantly I really notice it.

Also mad at myself for not seeing it before he did.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Says online that the toxic dose of xylitol is 0.1g per kg. Jasper is 600g so for him that would be only 0.05g. Its altogether possible he could have ingested that. What should I do?


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

I would ring your vet in view of Jasper's history, a bigger healthy dog woudn't concern me. They might just want to check his blood sugar and heart rate.
Don't panic though, I'm sure he'll be fine.
Also, don't beat yourself up. Reena was scoffing what looked liked tortilla chips off the pavement on Wednesday that I hadn't seen.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

SusieRainbow said:


> I would ring your vet in view of Jasper's history, a bigger healthy dog woudn't concern me. They might just want to check his blood sugar and heart rate.
> Don't panic though, I'm sure he'll be fine.
> Also, don't beat yourself up. Reena was scoffing what looked liked tortilla chips off the pavement on Wednesday that I hadn't seen.


Just called the vets and they said I should just monitor him and bring him in if he shows any signs of being ill.

Thank you, this has really frightened me but hopefully he's ok. There are so many things that I manage to stop him from eating when he goes out but somehow I just missed this one. I do keep him close to me on the lead and I'm looking down at the floor all the time but he has the advantage of being closer to the ground so sometimes he sees things before I do.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> Just called the vets and they said I should just monitor him and bring him in if he shows any signs of being ill.
> 
> Thank you, this has really frightened me but hopefully he's ok. There are so many things that I manage to stop him from eating when he goes out but somehow I just missed this one. I do keep him close to me on the lead and I'm looking down at the floor all the time but he has the advantage of being closer to the ground so sometimes he sees things before I do.


I have a similar problem,being dachshunds my dogs' noses and jaws are much nearer the ground than my eyes ! 
You can only do your best, they are just so quick !


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

SusieRainbow said:


> I have a similar problem,being dachshunds my dogs' noses and jaws are much nearer the ground than my eyes !
> You can only do your best, they are just so quick !


Ah the advantages of tall dogs!

Sometimes I swear it seems as though Jasper has a death wish, what with his eagerness to eat anything which is poisonous and/or inedible or prone to cause internal damage or blockages if swallowed.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> Ah the advantages of tall dogs!
> 
> Sometimes I swear it seems as though Jasper has a death wish, what with his eagerness to eat anything which is poisonous and/or inedible or prone to cause internal damage or blockages if swallowed.


This is why I've always had adult (?) dogs, they are quite crazy enough !


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

If he continues to scavenge and cause you such stress, that you, obviously, can't enjoy your walks together, then you can muzzle train him.
Make sure its one he can take a drink through, and have treats YOU want him to have, but, has a grill at the front to stop him scavenging from the floor
Baskerville's come in xs through to giant and allow all the above (other good muzzles are available)
Definitely not a mesh one though


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## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

April Pearl said:


> Ah the advantages of tall dogs!
> 
> Sometimes I swear it seems as though Jasper has a death wish, what with his eagerness to eat anything which is poisonous and/or inedible or prone to cause internal damage or blockages if swallowed.


Maybe take a large brush and sweep before you as you go? lol  
Seriously though walking the streets with a small dog is no joke is it? Dan's favourite was goose poo (when he was really small) and the local park has an abundance of the stuff, we just had to avoid walking there in the end. That really did make him ill! Not to mention the fast food outlets that are just around the corner and the waste they create, the dicarded full poo bags, broken glass etc that we have to negotiate daily :Arghh.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

mrs phas said:


> If he continues to scavenge and cause you such stress, that you, obviously, can't enjoy your walks together, then you can muzzle train him.
> Make sure its one he can take a drink through, and have treats YOU want him to have, but, has a grill at the front to stop him scavenging from the floor
> Baskerville's come in xs through to giant and allow all the above (other good muzzles are available)
> Definitely not a mesh one though


Was hoping it was just a puppy thing that he would grow out of but if he doesn't then I can see it's not going to be safe for him. If he is deaf then the best I could do would be to teach him hand signals for 'leave it' and 'drop it' but the trouble is that he usually isn't looking at me when trying to gobble up something he shouldn't be. If it doesn't stop then maybe a muzzle might be necessary to keep him safe. I hope not though because I think he'd hate it. He feels badly enough about his harness!



DanWalkersmum said:


> Maybe take a large brush and sweep before you as you go? lol
> Seriously though walking the streets with a small dog is no joke is it? Dan's favourite was goose poo (when he was really small) and the local park has an abundance of the stuff, we just had to avoid walking there in the end. That really did make him ill! Not to mention the fast food outlets that are just around the corner and the waste they create, the dicarded full poo bags, broken glass etc that we have to negotiate daily :Arghh.


Maybe I could attach a brush to his harness so that it cleared the way in front of him like a little snow plow 

This is the sort of thing you don't expect will happen when you get a small dog (at least I didn't!) I'm glad it's not just Jasper. I'm sure Jasper would consider goose poo a delicacy as he's already eaten cat poo...


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## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

April Pearl said:


> Was hoping it was just a puppy thing that he would grow out of but if he doesn't then I can see it's not going to be safe for him. If he is deaf then the best I could do would be to teach him hand signals for 'leave it' and 'drop it' but the trouble is that he usually isn't looking at me when trying to gobble up something he shouldn't be. If it doesn't stop then maybe a muzzle might be necessary to keep him safe. I hope not though because I think he'd hate it. He feels badly enough about his harness!
> 
> Maybe I could attach a brush to his harness so that it cleared the way in front of him like a little snow plow
> 
> This is the sort of thing you don't expect will happen when you get a small dog (at least I didn't!) I'm glad it's not just Jasper. I'm sure Jasper would consider goose poo a delicacy as he's already eaten cat poo...


Dan says it's delicious, but not worth the vet fees and hangover  lol! He has learned the leave it command now though and is about 90 per cent on it.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

DanWalkersmum said:


> Dan says it's delicious, but not worth the vet fees and hangover  lol! He has learned the leave it command now though and is about 90 per cent on it.


Well done Dan!


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

The picking stuff up nightmare! Bungo is always picking stuff up, you do become highly aware how discusting humans can be when you have a small dog.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

ForestWomble said:


> The picking stuff up nightmare! Bungo is always picking stuff up, you do become highly aware how discusting humans can be when you have a small dog.


I just don't know why he'd think to eat most of the stuff he attempts to scoff - most of it can't taste nice and a lot of it is plainly inedible (stones, for example). Mud seems to be his personal favourite. He will find and eat any piece of mud which has come into the house on someone's shoes. I think he'd be just as happy if I switched from giving him chicken to giving him pieces of mud as treats!

And yes having Jasper has certainly opened my eyes to just how much litter people drop!


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> I just don't know why he'd think to eat most of the stuff he attempts to scoff - most of it can't taste nice and a lot of it is plainly inedible (stones, for example). Mud seems to be his personal favourite. He will find and eat any piece of mud which has come into the house on someone's shoes. I think he'd be just as happy if I switched from giving him chicken to giving him pieces of mud as treats!
> 
> And yes having Jasper has certainly opened my eyes to just how much litter people drop!


Mud! :Yuck Maybe he thinks its carob


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

No Carbs in mud


edit because carls are somerthing else altogether


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Just thought I’d mention something here: Jasper doesn’t seem to be drinking water. I have only seen him drink a few laps from his water bowl on one occasion today. He hasn’t been drinking much in general but before now I wasn’t concerned because I knew he was getting more than enough water in the liquid convalescence food. But today we switched him into a wet food (hills i/d). The reason for this is that when we tried over a week to gradually switch him onto a Hills puppy food he began having diarrhoea and we had to go back to the con. I was going to try switching from the convalescence to the puppy food over two weeks instead but a vet told me yesterday that I should take him off the convalescence straight away and put him on the i/d because the convalescence isn’t a complete diet and he’s already been on it for too long. I can then slowly switch from the i/d to a puppy food.

I’m just a bit concerned that he’s not drinking. Perhaps he forgot he has to drink, having been on the convalescence for so long? Not sure what I should do. Or, will he be getting enough water in his food?


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

Bungo went through a period of having to be reminded to drink, I used to add a small amount of something tasty to the water to persuade him to drink.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

ForestWomble said:


> Bungo went through a period of having to be reminded to drink, I used to add a small amount of something tasty to the water to persuade him to drink.


What did you add? Would love some suggestions as Jasper keeps turning his nose up every time I offer him water


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> What did you add? Would love some suggestions as Jasper keeps turning his nose up every time I offer him water


I would add dog gravy to his water sometimes.
Or sometimes I'd give him a little goats milk, but seperate to the water.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

ForestWomble said:


> I would add dog gravy to his water sometimes.
> Or sometimes I'd give him a little goats milk, but seperate to the water.


Ahhh don't have either dog gravy or goats milk on hand right now. Wonder what else I could use this evening.


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> Ahhh don't have either dog gravy or goats milk on hand right now. Wonder what else I could use this evening.


broth?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

ForestWomble said:


> broth?


No broth either, unfortunately. The closest we have are oxo cubes but I expect they're no good! Will have to mix some water in his food this evening and try to get some dog gravy tomorrow - is there a particular brand you would suggest?


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> No broth either, unfortunately. The closest we have are oxo cubes but I expect they're no good! Will have to mix some water in his food this evening and try to get some dog gravy tomorrow - is there a particular brand you would suggest?


Have a look on-line for dog gravy recipes. Some are reall simple like blending some wet food with water to make it really runny, you could then freeze it and add cubes to his water bowl.
Or if you have any fish or chicken poach it in water and add the liqud to his water.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

SusieRainbow said:


> Have a look on-line for dog gravy recipes. Some are reall simple like blending some wet food with water to make it really runny, you could then freeze it and add cubes to his water bowl.
> Or if you have any fish or chicken poach it in water and add the liqud to his water.


Oh I boiled him some chicken yesterday, wish I'd kept the water! Can boil some more up for him and mix it with his water. Thank you so much, I'd never have thought to do that!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Loki was a bugger for eating things he has grown out of it. I was nearly at the point of muzzle training. 

My boys love goats milk you can dilute it. Also add water to his food if your worried.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

One of my common dinners is pasta cooked with vegetables, and I always keep the cooking water for the dogs once I've strained out the stuff I want to eat (with added butter and pesto). They all love it.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> Loki was a bugger for eating things he has grown out of it. I was nearly at the point of muzzle training.
> 
> My boys love goats milk you can dilute it. Also add water to his food if your worried.


Glad to hear that they do grow out of it (at least in some cases!) Think I will also of mix some water with his food.



Burrowzig said:


> One of my common dinners is pasta cooked with vegetables, and I always keep the cooking water for the dogs once I've strained out the stuff I want to eat (with added butter and pesto). They all love it.


Didn't know they'd like pasta water! There's something else to try then


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

April Pearl said:


> Glad to hear that they do grow out of it (at least in some cases!) Think I will also of mix some water with his food.
> 
> Didn't know they'd like pasta water! There's something else to try then


Oh, and they get to lick out the pan, too.
I add warm water to my dogs' meals as a matter of course. It brings out the scents, and I don't have to worry about them not drinking enough.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

SusieRainbow said:


> Have a look on-line for dog gravy recipes. Some are reall simple like blending some wet food with water to make it really runny, you could then freeze it and add cubes to his water bowl.
> Or if you have any fish or chicken poach it in water and add the liqud to his water.


I was just wondering: how long would 'chicken water' last in the fridge? Or would I need to freeze it?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Apparently the i/d food is 75% water. Jasper is eating about 100g of it per day at the moment which means he is getting 75ml of water from his food. It says online that dogs need an ounce (28ml) of water per pound of body weight. Jasper is 620g so about one and a half pounds so should need 42ml of water per day. In that case, he’s already getting more water than he needs from his food. Should I still add water to his food or could over hydration be harmful?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

We often notice Jasper chewing with a strange crunch noise as though he is trying to eat a stone. I have many times checked his mouth on these occasions and found nothing, so I assumed that he was just biting his teeth together or something.

Well, today he was doing this and I actually found a small stone in his mouth. All those other times the stone must have been too small for me to find or hidden somewhere in his mouth.

Noe I'm freaking out as this means he must have eaten a LOT of stones. He does this about the house so evidently picks up and eats any tiny stones which come in on shoes. He also does this on walks and outside when he goes to the toilet.

He goes to the toilet on a paved area in the garden but there are some pieces of gravel on that area since there is gravel in a near by flower bed. I am so scared that he has been eating tiny pieces of gravel. He cannot go to the toilet on the grass since if he does we cannot tell if he has peed or not. I will try to sweep the area completely clear of any stones but the ones he finds must be tiny since I usually don't see them before he gets them. I take him out to pee about every 20 minutes so I cant bear to think how many stones he may have eaten.

Should I get him X-rayed or something?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Just pulled apart some of his poo (I know I know) and found lots of little pieces of stone in it. Arrrrrrgh so he is eating stones! If that's what is coming out I hate to think what might still be inside him.

I really am at a loss as to what to do about this. He just seems to find and eat tiny things that I don't see.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

I think you should look at muzzle training him to prevent him picking things up but I’m not sure though that the Baskerville muzzle will be small enough. Mine are muzzled trained for the vets but my Yorkie has the smallest version and she is 4kg. Could you section of an area for toileting that doesn’t include pebbles?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Jobeth said:


> I think you should look at muzzle training him to prevent him picking things up but I'm not sure though that the Baskerville muzzle will be small enough. Mine are muzzled trained for the vets but my Yorkie has the smallest version and she is 4kg. Could you section of an area for toileting that doesn't include pebbles?


There is only one paved area to the garden and can't use the grass because it's impossible to tell if he has peed on the grass. Just checked outside and there actually are no pebbles on the side of the paved area that Jasper uses for toileting (although I brushed it just in case) so I don't think it is pieces of gravel that he is eating. There were just some teeny tiny little bits of stone such as you would find anywhere outside and I think these are what he is eating. I have brushed the area as I say but the pieces of stone are just so small that I am sure he would still be able to find some.

I reckon we may end up having to do muzzle training. I just don't know where I am going to find a muzzle the right size or how to go about it.

In the mean time, it feels as though no where is safe for him and I am concerned about what might happen to him given what he has already consumed.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2020)

Can’t you tell from his body position if he’s squatting to pee?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

McKenzie said:


> Can't you tell from his body position if he's squatting to pee?


No because he doesn't squat to pee. He just stands and I can never tell if he's gone until I see a puddle. I often think he has peed and then find that he hasn't!


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Jasper ate another stone on his walk today. He was doing his crunchy chewing thing so I tried to get whatever he was eating out of his mouth but no luck. He swallowed and it was gone. I don't know what to do. There are tiny stones EVERYWHERE outside. I can never fish them out of his mouth as they are so small and he seems to hide them from me. And he squirms so much.


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

April Pearl said:


> Jasper ate another stone on his walk today. He was doing his crunchy chewing thing so I tried to get whatever he was eating out of his mouth but no luck. He swallowed and it was gone. I don't know what to do. There are tiny stones EVERYWHERE outside. I can never fish them out of his mouth as they are so small and he seems to hide them from me. And he squirms so much.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

ShibaPup said:


>


Thank you. Jasper is most likely deaf which makes this more difficult. The cue will need to be a hand signal and he usually is looking down away from me when eating something he shouldn't be. He's so low down that it would have to be a cue that I could do when crouching down with my hand in front of his face, even when his face is pointing down.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

April Pearl said:


> T
> I reckon we may end up having to do muzzle training. I just don't know where I am going to find a muzzle the right size or how to go about it.
> .


try here

https://www.bumas.uk/dog-muzzle?TABINDEX=0


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

April Pearl said:


> Thank you. Jasper is most likely deaf which makes this more difficult. The cue will need to be a hand signal and he usually is looking down away from me when eating something he shouldn't be. He's so low down that it would have to be a cue that I could do when crouching down with my hand in front of his face, even when his face is pointing down.


Not really - you pretty much just throw food on the floor and move it towards him with your hand, so he see's your hand being near him and moving towards him when eating as a positive, for example you'd be moving the food towards him rather than your hands only taking things away from his mouth. If you only ever take things from him that he wants - he's more likely to hide things from you.

You could make the cue a foot tap in front of him? Tap your toe on the ground in front of him a couple of times - throw food. Until the toe tap becomes the cue to drop. Only issue I'd see is doing that at distance but I'm guessing you're probably keeping him on lead anyway. Lily can hear but all our training cues are hand signals or non-verbal cues - I get lazy at trying to switch to a verbal cue.

Can't remember if it's in the video but practice swapping items - give him something he'll take but is considered low value for him, cue him to leave it/drop or whatever and swap it for something higher value that he enjoys more.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

mrs phas said:


> try here
> 
> https://www.bumas.uk/dog-muzzle?TABINDEX=0


Thanks, will check it out.



ShibaPup said:


> Not really - you pretty much just throw food on the floor and move it towards him with your hand, so he see's your hand being near him and moving towards him when eating as a positive, for example you'd be moving the food towards him rather than your hands only taking things away from his mouth. If you only ever take things from him that he wants - he's more likely to hide things from you.
> 
> You could make the cue a foot tap in front of him? Tap your toe on the ground in front of him a couple of times - throw food. Until the toe tap becomes the cue to drop. Only issue I'd see is doing that at distance but I'm guessing you're probably keeping him on lead anyway. Lily can hear but all our training cues are hand signals or non-verbal cues - I get lazy at trying to switch to a verbal cue.
> 
> Can't remember if it's in the video but practice swapping items - give him something he'll take but is considered low value for him, cue him to leave it/drop or whatever and swap it for something higher value that he enjoys more.


Thank you, a foot tap would work. He's on the lead anyway.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Oh my God Jasper was chewing something crunchy and I checked in his mouth, couldn't see/feel anything. Offered him a treat and he dropped a huge (for him) stone. It was about 1cm long and wide. He's chewed like that on so many other occasions without me getting anything out of his mouth (usually offering a treat doesn't work) so he might have swallowed a stone of that size before now... Well shit.


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## Amie91 (Jan 21, 2020)

April Pearl said:


> Today on his (short!) walk I had to fish out of Jasper's mouth: one slug, half a nut shell which filled most of his mouth (I think maybe hazel nut?) and, most concerning, a piece of used chewing gum partially wrapped up in silver foil - bit worried about that one since I know chewing gum contains sweeteners which are poisonous to dogs.
> 
> During his walks I spend most of my time scanning the ground for potential hazards that he might attempt to eat and Jasper spends most of his time, head down, doing his best to consume said hazards before I get to them!
> 
> ...


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## Amie91 (Jan 21, 2020)

Bailey went through that faze where I felt like I was constantly fishing used chewing gum out his mouth on walks ‍♀ he's almost 8 months now and seems to have almost grown out of doing it, touch wood! You don't realise the amount of rubbish/chewing gum that's lying about until you get a puppy!


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Well toilet training is progressing in some ways but we have taken a step back in others.

On the plus side, Jasper now does go to the toilet outside when I take him out whereas previously he was refusing to. He also sleeps in his crate overnight with one toilet trip in the night and this is going well.

On the downside, since he has been going to the toilet outside, Jasper has completely lost the hang of pee pads. Now, when he has an accident inside it is on the floor.

I am taking him out after he sleeps/eats/plays etc and that's all fine. In between times I take him out every 20 minutes since he usually pees every 20 minutes.

The problem is that he can pee more often than every 20 minutes. For example, today he peed on the floor only 15 minutes after he had been outside. Then he peed on the floor again 10 minutes after that. And yes, I was supervising him but often he pees suddenly with little or no warning.

Should I start taking him out every 10 minutes instead?

I have ordered a bell off Amazon and will try to train him to press it every time he needs to go to the toilet. Any advice on training for this?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Don't confuse him by putting puppy pads down. How can he be clear that he should be outside if you allow him to go in a certain place in the house. Chuck them away!


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Blitz said:


> Don't confuse him by putting puppy pads down. How can he be clear that he should be outside if you allow him to go in a certain place in the house. Chuck them away!


Sorry, should have made it clear: we already threw them away since he totally stopped using them and started having accidents on the floor (we kept them inside for a little while as when he headed towards them it was a good indication that he needed to go). He still has the problem of sometimes peeing on the floor only a few minutes after going outside though.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> Sorry, should have made it clear: we already threw them away since he totally stopped using them and started having accidents on the floor (we kept them inside for a little while as when he headed towards them it was a good indication that he needed to go). He still has the problem of sometimes peeing on the floor only a few minutes after going outside though.


With you saying he's peeing so frequently, and not squatting, I would be concerned about his bladder control. Has he been checked for a UTI ? If you could get a wee sanple from him and get the vet to send it off for bacterial analysis that would tell you.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

SusieRainbow said:


> With you saying he's peeing so frequently, and not squatting, I would be concerned about his bladder control. Has he been checked for a UTI ? If you could get a wee sanple from him and get the vet to send it off for bacterial analysis that would tell you.


I had the same thought so we took him to the vet to ask about the possibility of a UTI last week. They said he probably doesn't have a UTI because there isn't any blood in his urine and he doesn't ever strain to pee without anything coming out. They did say that I should get a sample of his urine if I could but so far my attempts to get one have been unsuccessful since he will not let me put a container under him to catch his pee!

I think he CAN hold on for longer than 20 minutes since I have left him in his crate (albeit asleep) during the day for 2 hours without accidents (I was watching him on camera to check he was ok so I know he was sleeping). Also, he goes to bed at 10pm, I get him up at 2am to go to the toilet outside and then he holds on until 6am when we get up. So, at night he's holding on for 4 hour stretches.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> UTI because there isn't any blood in his urine and he doesn't ever strain to pee without anything coming out.


That would be a Uti at its very worse if you can visually see blood in urine and was straining.. That's why test strips indicate if blood is present in urine, or white blood cells. The frequency of urination even for a small puppy should give a heads up and the vets would be more looking for white blood cells and indicator of infection, which wouldn't be noted by anything but getting a sample.

Honestly if that was my vet I would be changing vets. That seems such bad advice for something as common as a UTI


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

lullabydream said:


> That would be a Uti at its very worse if you can visually see blood in urine and was straining.. That's why test strips indicate if blood is present in urine, or white blood cells. The frequency of urination even for a small puppy should give a heads up and the vets would be more looking for white blood cells and indicator of infection, which wouldn't be noted by anything but getting a sample.
> 
> Honestly if that was my vet I would be changing vets. That seems such bad advice for something as common as a UTI


Thank you, I didn't know. It was a different vet (same practice) that Jasper saw last week so maybe she wasn't as good. I'm definitely going to have to get a sample then - the only difficulty is how I'm going to do it.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> Thank you, I didn't know. It was a different vet (same practice) that Jasper saw last week so maybe she wasn't as good. I'm definitely going to have to get a sample then - the only difficulty is how I'm going to do it.


A ladle is very handy to catch dog urine. Most vets have a thing now that they charge a couple of pounds for, it attaches to the specimen bottle, that's pretty good too. It looks a bit like a small shovel is how I would describe it. It might be worth asking if they have anything to help get a water sample.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

lullabydream said:


> That would be a Uti at its very worse if you can visually see blood in urine and was straining.. That's why test strips indicate if blood is present in urine, or white blood cells. The frequency of urination even for a small puppy should give a heads up and the vets would be more looking for white blood cells and indicator of infection, which wouldn't be noted by anything but getting a sample.
> 
> Honestly if that was my vet I would be changing vets. That seems such bad advice for something as common as a UTI


Exactly what I was going to say. In fact no vet is going to say that as it is quite ridiculous. Toffee had just been diagnosed with quite a bad UTI and though the sample showed up with a lot of blood on the test strip there was certainly no sign of it to the naked eye. I would be more than worried if I could see blood.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Blitz said:


> Exactly what I was going to say. *In fact no vet is going to say that as it is quite ridiculous*. Toffee had just been diagnosed with quite a bad UTI and though the sample showed up with a lot of blood on the test strip there was certainly no sign of it to the naked eye. I would be more than worried if I could see blood.


The vet did say that but I didn't realise that it was ridiculous. I don't have any experience of UTIs.


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2020)

The vet can take a sterile sample if you can't get one - in fact they often prefer to. I did think it was strange when you said he doesn't squat so a UTI is a good guess.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

McKenzie said:


> The vet can take a sterile sample if you can't get one - in fact they often prefer to. I did think it was strange when you said he doesn't squat so a UTI is a good guess.


They can? I asked them at Jasper's appointment if they could just take a sample themselves and they said they couldn't. How annoying.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

I've always used a cheap plastic ladle for getting samples, works well because you can get it at arm' s length and you're not hovering so close to the dog.
Mind you, what visitors think when they see a ladle in my downstairs cloakroom I dread to think!


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Thanks everyone. I will try to get a urine sample. I have tried using the plastic device the vet gave us but when Jasper feels it between his legs he moves away, even mid pee. Maybe I will next try a ladle or some kind of spoon which he may not notice.

Jasper peed his crate last night. It must have happened some time between 10pm and 2am. When I took him out at 2am he produced a fair amount of pee but less than I had expected at that time. Went back inside and discovered his bed had pee on it. Given the amount that he peed outside at 2am I’d say that he perhaps peed in his crate at 1am or 1:30am.

He didn’t bark/cry at all to let me know he needed a wee which confuses me. I guess this means he doesn’t mind peeing in his crate, which is not good. I was thinking maybe his crate is too big and therefore he does not mind peeing in it as he can just sleep in another part of it. Or maybe I need to start taking him out at 1am?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Another accident in the crate but not overnight this time. Jasper peed outside at 7am but didn’t poo so I thought he didn’t need to go. So, I popped him in his crate so I could eat my cereal for 5 minutes without worrying about him chewing the table legs. I was going to take him outside again as soon as I’d eaten. He pooed in there within a minute. It’s definitely my fault as by 7am he hadn’t pooed since 2am and he usually needs to poo again between about 6am and 8am. I’m just not sure why he was holding on to his poo outside but not in his crate...

On the plus side, I managed to get a urine sample from him. He was evading all spoons etc so I had to resort to more crafty tactics. Popped a plate down outside and put the sides of an exercise pen around it such that he had to stand on the plate. Then, at 2am when I knew he’d have to pee I put him on the plate and got my urine sample straight away!


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Glad you got the sample 

I think he’s just a bit confused about where he can toilet because of having the puppy pads for a while. Try to see it from his point of view.

Just step up the toilet breaks and be hyper vigilant. The more chance he has to toilet outside and be praised/rewarded for it the more likely the penny will drop.

This might mean taking a couple of steps back in the timings and bring more frequent for a few days, before lengthening the intervals again.

Obviously, if it turns out he has a uti that will make a difference.

As for the bell, I’d prefer to manage/control his routine rather than rely on him having to ask. 

Jack’s routine is in line with mine but he will ask to go out if he needs an extra trip to the garden occasionally by giving a little cry or going to the door if I’m in the room.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Lurcherlad said:


> Glad you got the sample
> 
> I think he's just a bit confused about where he can toilet because of having the puppy pads for a while. Try to see it from his point of view.
> 
> ...


I think you are right that he is confused and that's totally my fault, not his at all! At the moment I take him out every 20 minutes and watch him constantly in between. Should I take that up to every 10 minutes, then?

One problem is that I don't like to take him out more frequently because he doesn't seem to enjoy the experience much (despite the chicken!) and does pull on the lead trying to get back to the house, crying. Also I have to carry him outside because he cannot climb out of the door or down the step just below it without a boost and, even if he could, often I have to get him out at short notice which requires me to carry him or he will just pee inside. I also need to lift him back in. He doesn't enjoy being carried.

However, if taking him out every 10 minutes is what I need to do then I'll do it.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Maybe for just 2 or 3 days to reestablish outside only for toileting?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Lurcherlad said:


> Maybe for just 2 or 3 days to reestablish outside only for toileting?


Will try it.

The other problem is that his excessive peeing is making it very difficult to appropriately handle the play biting/mouthing. I know that whenever he bites I should walk out of the room but if I do then I'm liable to come back in to a puddle of pee since he goes so frequently! I need to constantly supervise him so that I can get him outside if he starts showing signs he's about to go, but that's incompatible with walking out of the room (which I would have to do pretty much every 5 seconds sometimes!)

I guess it's a question of priorities and right now I'm prioritising toilet training. Hope that's not wrong?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Aaand he has just pooped in his crate for the second time today. Seven minutes after being outside.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

The wonderful world of puppy hood ! It will all fall into place I promise.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> The wonderful world of puppy hood ! It will all fall into place I promise.


Oh I hope so! I just worry that now he's pooed in his crate twice he'll carry on doing it...


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

April Pearl said:


> Oh I hope so! I just worry that now he's pooed in his crate twice he'll carry on doing it...


I mentioned before it took ages to train Loki (my fault not his) id take him out stand outside for ages then come in and he would poop upstairs then tell it off. Keep to a strict routine and keep going it will come. Is he pooping on bedding ?


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2020)

So, he's peeing more frequently than every 20 minutes while he is awake? That seems really excessive. If the UTI comes back clear I wonder if there is some sort of internal developmental problem, given the frequency of urination, the fact he doesn't squat, his stunted growth and background.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> I mentioned before it took ages to train Loki (my fault not his) id take him out stand outside for ages then come in and he would poop upstairs then tell it off. Keep to a strict routine and keep going it will come. Is he pooping on bedding ?


He has a pretty strict routine I'd say what with going out every 20 mins on the dot and scheduled meal, walk and sleep times but he doesn't always poo at consistent times which is why the one this afternoon slipped me up. Yes, he has pooed twice on the bedding in his crate today.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

McKenzie said:


> So, he's peeing less than every 20 minutes while he is awake? That seems really excessive. If the UTI comes back clear I wonder if there is some sort of internal developmental problem, given the frequency of urination, the fact he doesn't squat, his stunted growth and background.


Usually it's every 20 minutes but not infrequently he does go more often. I hope it's not anything worse than a uni if there is something wrong. He seems healthy otherwise. I wouldn't say that his growth is stunted per se. He was much too small when we got him for his age but I think that must have been because the parasites were stopping him growing properly. He's gaining about 100g a week currently, which is more than the usual rate of growth for a Pomeranian puppy of his age, so he's growing well and catching up. I expect he'll end up the size that he was always meant to be genetically.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

April Pearl said:


> He has a pretty strict routine I'd say what with going out every 20 mins on the dot and scheduled meal, walk and sleep times but he doesn't always poo at consistent times which is why the one this afternoon slipped me up. Yes, he has pooed twice on the bedding in his crate today.


Just make sure it's eased throughly if he can smell it he will go again.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> Just make sure it's eased throughly if he can smell it he will go again.


Yes, using Persil bio at the right temp. He has several beds/blankets so after he pooed on one I was able to switch to another.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

April Pearl said:


> Yes, using Persil bio at the right temp. He has several beds/blankets so after he pooed on one I was able to switch to another.


That's good have the vets sent off his sample ?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> That's good have the vets sent off his sample ?


They said they'd send it off this evening. Forgot to ask when to expect results though.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> They said they'd send it off this evening. Forgot to ask when to expect results though.


Haven't they done the standard dip stick.. They usually do that before sending off any sample! Absolutely confused why they would send of a sample without testing it themselves first. It's standard protocol.. The sending off is usually to culture anything to make sure antibiotics are the right ones.
The more I hear about the vets, the more I am puzzled.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

lullabydream said:


> Haven't they done the standard dip stick.. They usually do that before sending off any sample! Absolutely confused why they would send of a sample without testing it themselves first. It's standard protocol.. The sending off is usually to culture anything to make sure antibiotics are the right ones.
> The more I hear about the vets, the more I am puzzled.


What's the standard dip stick? I don't know how these things work.

Could it be because I asked them to check for everything that could be causing frequent urination (so not just a uti)?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Jasper was sleeping in his crate and I went to get him up to find that he had peed on his bed. I don't think the crate is working...


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

April Pearl said:


> he had peed on his bed. I don't think the crate is working...


The crate won't prevent him peeing - it can help as an aid to toilet training in so far as dogs _prefer_ not to toilet where they sleep but it isn't a silver bullet solution. If he needs to pee, he needs to pee; whether he is in the crate or not. I haven't read all of the thread but puppy toilet accidents are not the dog's fault, they are the owner's fault for not having the puppy outside when he needs to toilet.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

JoanneF said:


> The crate won't prevent him peeing - it can help as an aid to toilet training in so far as dogs _prefer_ not to toilet where they sleep but it isn't a silver bullet solution. If he needs to pee, he needs to pee; whether he is in the crate or not. I haven't read all of the thread but puppy toilet accidents are not the dog's fault, they are the owner's fault for not having the puppy outside when he needs to toilet.


It would be useful for you to read the whole thread, apparently Jasper pees every 20 minutes with no warning so not a case of straight=forward toilet training.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

SusieRainbow said:


> It would be useful for you to read the whole thread, apparently Jasper pees every 20 minutes with no warning so not a case of straight=forward toilet training.


Ah thanks. I have dipped in and out but 24 pages is a little daunting. That said, if he is peeing every 20 minutes or so, that's a fairly predictable pattern, even if abnormally frequent.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

JoanneF said:


> The crate won't prevent him peeing - it can help as an aid to toilet training in so far as dogs _prefer_ not to toilet where they sleep but it isn't a silver bullet solution. If he needs to pee, he needs to pee; whether he is in the crate or not. I haven't read all of the thread but puppy toilet accidents are not the dog's fault, they are the owner's fault for not having the puppy outside when he needs to toilet.


Oh no I know it's not his fault, I don't blame him at all! It's just confusing to me as he hadn't been in there long and had peed before going in so he shouldn't really have HAD to pee.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> What's the standard dip stick? I don't know how these things work.
> 
> Could it be because I asked them to check for everything that could be causing frequent urination (so not just a uti)?


No I doubt it..
A dip stick shows everything. Its the first step to show if anything else needs it highlights quite a bit.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

JoanneF said:


> Ah thanks. I have dipped in and out but 24 pages is a little daunting. That said, if he is peeing every 20 minutes or so, that's a fairly predictable pattern, even if abnormally frequent.


Yes, I am taking him out every 20 minutes because of this but sometimes he pees only 5 or 10 minutes after he last went and that's how the accidents happen.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

lullabydream said:


> No I doubt it..
> A dip stick shows everything. Its the first step to show if anything else needs it highlights quite a bit.


Thank you. I don't get it then, I'll call them tomorrow and ask if they did any tests themselves and when I would be likely to get results.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

lullabydream said:


> Haven't they done the standard dip stick.. They usually do that before sending off any sample! Absolutely confused why they would send of a sample without testing it themselves first. It's standard protocol.. The sending off is usually to culture anything to make sure antibiotics are the right ones.
> The more I hear about the vets, the more I am puzzled.


Never heard of a vet not just using a dip stick. Our vets can test a lot more than that on site and while the client is waiting too. It only takes a few minutes. All sounds very confusing.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Blitz said:


> Never heard of a vet not just using a dip stick. Our vets can test a lot more than that on site and while the client is waiting too. It only takes a few minutes. All sounds very confusing.


I don't get it then. Maybe something got lost in communication because when I gave them the sample they said they would test it on site but when they called later they said they were sending it off for testing instead. I'll have to call tomorrow.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

I imagine the sample has been sent for culture and sensitivity which of course a dipstick won't register.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> I don't get it then. Maybe something got lost in communication because when I gave them the sample they said they would test it on site but when they called later they said they were sending it off for testing instead. I'll have to call tomorrow.


I don't get it then.. If its clear I guess they are seeing if anything grows but ideally for that you would want a complete sterile sample. Which it isn't.

If it's not clear and sending it off, then Jasper should be on antibiotics; Broadsprectrum now.. Then when the results are in changed if necessary. Better to start antibiotics now than wait.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

SusieRainbow said:


> I imagine the sample has been sent for culture and sensitivity which of course a dipstick won't register.


It probably has been since we decided just to check everything while we were at it! That may explain things


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

lullabydream said:


> I don't get it then.. If its clear I guess they are seeing if anything grows but ideally for that you would want a complete sterile sample. Which it isn't.
> 
> If it's not clear and sending it off, then Jasper should be on antibiotics; Broadsprectrum now.. Then when the results are in changed if necessary. Better to start antibiotics now than wait.


I get the feeling that since I asked them to check everything they just sent it off for testing right away rather than first doing the dip stick test on site. I reckon they'd have told me already if they knew he had a uti.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Btw there’s a new thread on bell/toilet training you might be interested in


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Lurcherlad said:


> Btw there's a new thread on bell/toilet training you might be interested in


Thank you, will look at it!


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Jasper peed in his crate last night. He has been hanging on from 10pm to 2am just fine but I think that now he's gone to the toilet in his crate a few times he no longer minds doing it. I believe he did it just before I got the door of the crate open.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Called the vets and no they didn't do any in house testing. Should get results in 3-5 days apparently.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Maybe set the alarm for 1.30am for a few days and slowly move the time forward.

I assume you’re cleaning up/washing bedding with a biological solution to remove any residue/odour?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Lurcherlad said:


> Maybe set the alarm for 1.30am for a few days and slowly move the time forward.
> 
> I assume you're cleaning up/washing bedding with a biological solution to remove any residue/odour?


I was thinking of setting the alarm for 1am then 4am and get up at 7am as usual so he gets a chance to pee at 3 hour intervals in the night.

Yes cleaning everything with persil bio.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

April Pearl said:


> I get the feeling that since I asked them to check everything they just sent it off for testing right away rather than first doing the dip stick test on site. I reckon they'd have told me already if they knew he had a uti.


What do you mean by "check everything"?

Vets can test for a UTI on their premises and I assume they must have found the sample to be clear.

What exactly are they testing for?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Rafa said:


> What do you mean by "check everything"?
> 
> Vets can test for a UTI on their premises and I assume they must have found the sample to be clear.
> 
> What exactly are they testing for?


We just asked them to test for everything that could be causing frequent urination but I'm not a vet so I don't know what exactly that covers.

They said they didn't test for anything on site. They just sent the sample off


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> We just asked them to test for everything that could be causing frequent urination but I'm not a vet so I don't know what exactly that covers.
> 
> They said they didn't test for anything on site. They just sent the sample off


Did the vet not go through what tests they would run then?
Not that long ago Thai had issues (obvious blood in his urine), they tested for a uti (using a dip stick that all vets have) and then they ran through what we would be testing for next...My vets have an in house lab so within a few days I started to get the culture results.

This is your money that they are using (doesn't matter if the insurance covers it), you are Jaspers caregiver so they should run through everything with you BEFORE sending off for tests.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

April Pearl said:


> They said they didn't test for anything on site. They just sent the sample off


How odd.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Rafa said:


> How odd.


Depends on the vet, surely?

Mine can do a dipstick test and specific gravity, but anything else has to be sent off to a lab.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Rafa said:


> How odd.


Yeah given the information I've had here I'm not sure why they didn't just do a quick dip stick test up front themselves, would've been helpful.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Nonnie said:


> Depends on the vet, surely?
> 
> Mine can do a dipstick test and specific gravity, but anything else has to be sent off to a lab.


I get that but, would you not expect the Vet to test for a UTI before sending the sample to a Lab to be "tested for everything"?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> Depends on the vet, surely?
> 
> Mine can do a dipstick test and specific gravity, but anything else has to be sent off to a lab.


Yes, but any vet would do a dipstick initially. And if it showed blood or protein would put the dog on antibiotics. If they did not work then would be the time to send a sample away.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

StormyThai said:


> Did the vet not go through what tests they would run then?
> Not that long ago Thai had issues (obvious blood in his urine), they tested for a uti (using a dip stick that all vets have) and then they ran through what we would be testing for next...My vets have an in house lab so within a few days I started to get the culture results.
> 
> This is your money that they are using (doesn't matter if the insurance covers it), you are Jaspers caregiver so they should run through everything with you BEFORE sending off for tests.


No they didn't. I dropped off the sample and they said someone would call me. When the vet called me they just said they were going to "check everything", no more detail.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Rafa said:


> I get that but, would you not expect the Vet to test for a UTI before sending the sample to a Lab to be "tested for everything"?


Ok I suppose so. I'm sorry, I'm just stupid!


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Blitz said:


> Yes, but any vet would do a dipstick initially. And if it showed blood or protein would put the dog on antibiotics. If they did not work then would be the time to send a sample away.


Well according to Jasper's vets they didn't. I don't know what else to say. I apologise for being stupid.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

April Pearl said:


> Well according to Jasper's vets they didn't. I don't know what else to say. I apologise for being stupid.


Think you had better change your vet then. A vet that does not even do the basics that a nurse could is really not one to trust.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Is this the same vet who couldn't get blood out without sedating him, or couldn't take blood for hypoglycemia or something? I can't remember, but I seem to remember there being issues with confusing information regarding Jasper's condition and the vet before. 

Is it possible that you're not hearing right what the vets are saying? Do you have someone with you when you take Jasper? Sometimes it's hard to concentrate on what the vet is saying while also trying to juggle a wiggly pup.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

O2.0 said:


> Is this the same vet who couldn't get blood out without sedating him, or couldn't take blood for hypoglycemia or something? I can't remember, but I seem to remember there being issues with confusing information regarding Jasper's condition and the vet before.
> 
> Is it possible that you're not hearing right what the vets are saying? Do you have someone with you when you take Jasper? Sometimes it's hard to concentrate on what the vet is saying while also trying to juggle a wiggly pup.


No, that was the Royal Veterinary College and it wasn't that they couldn't get blood out without sedating him - they couldn't scan him without sedating him and felt he was too small for the images to show a liver shunt possibly and as for the blood they felt they couldn't get a high enough volume out for a liver function blood test because he was small. The vet testing for a uti is just Jasper's regular vet. Yes, I have someone with me when I take Jasper but in this case it was a phone call anyway.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

April Pearl said:


> No, that was the Royal Veterinary College and it wasn't that they couldn't get blood out without sedating him - they couldn't scan him without sedating him and felt he was too small for the images to show a liver shunt possibly and as for the blood they felt they couldn't get a high enough volume out for a liver function blood test because he was small. The vet testing for a uti is just Jasper's regular vet. Yes, I have someone with me when I take Jasper but in this case it was a phone call anyway.


Oh, sorry, wrong vet. I was confused I guess because you had said this:


April Pearl said:


> Since he is quite wriggly now because he is feeling better *they may have to sedate him to get the right amount of blood *out anyway


In any case, it sounds like there is a lot of confusion when it comes to what the vet says and how he/she handles things. I too find it extremely odd that they didn't do an initial test on the urine. 
Is it the same vet you see every time at this practice?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

O2.0 said:


> Oh, sorry, wrong vet. I was confused I guess because you had said this:
> 
> In any case, it sounds like there is a lot of confusion when it comes to what the vet says and how he/she handles things. I too find it extremely odd that they didn't do an initial test on the urine.
> Is it the same vet you see every time at this practice?


I think that was me just throwing in another reason why getting out the blood might be difficult, I forget whether a vet ever said that. From what I remember the issues surrounding the blood were mostly that it would be a big thing to take such a large volume of blood from him, the sedation issues mentioned by the vets were about scans. It was weeks ago so I don't recall exactly.

No, there are a number of different vets that he has seen.

You may be right and I'm just too stupid to understand what is said to me.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

April Pearl said:


> You may be right and I'm just too stupid to understand what is said to me.


I'm quite sure I haven't said that 

However if that's what you interpret from my posts, it's possible you're not hearing from the vet's what they're saying, hence me asking if you have someone with you to help you remember what was said.

It's not unusual to have to have help remembering what is said in a doctor's office. I always have to go with OH because he tends to shut down a little and not listen well, so I go to be a second set of ears.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> I think that was me just throwing in another reason why getting out the blood might be difficult, I forget whether a vet ever said that. From what I remember the issues surrounding the blood were mostly that it would be a big thing to take such a large volume of blood from him, the sedation issues mentioned by the vets were about scans. It was weeks ago so I don't recall exactly.
> 
> No, there are a number of different vets that he has seen.
> 
> You may be right and I'm just too stupid to understand what is said to me.


April, no one here thinks you're stupid !
It does sound as though you're getting confusing information and advice , we're just trying to help untangle it because we're all a bit confused too. 
In my experience, when I took my old dog to the vet with a suspected UTI she would ask for a sample and if Tango was showing symptoms give me antibiotics to start her on after the sample was taken.
As others have said different vets have different methods, what we need to know is whether Jasper has a UTi or not ,


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

O2.0 said:


> I'm quite sure I haven't said that
> 
> However if that's what you interpret from my posts, it's possible you're not hearing from the vet's what they're saying, hence me asking if you have someone with you to help you remember what was said.
> 
> It's not unusual to have to have help remembering what is said in a doctor's office. I always have to go with OH because he tends to shut down a little and not listen well, so I go to be a second set of ears.


I know that's not what you said. Sorry, that was snarky of me. It just gets frustrating when people are constantly not believing you. I can only tell you what both I and my mother have heard various vets say on various occasions. If you choose to believe that that is not what was actually said then there's really nothing more that I can say.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

SusieRainbow said:


> April, no one here thinks you're stupid !
> It does sound as though you're getting confusing information and advice , we're just trying to help untangle it because we're all a bit confused too.
> In my experience, when I took my old dog to the vet with a suspected UTI she would ask for a sample and if Tango was showing symptoms give me antibiotics to start her on after the sample was taken.
> As others have said different vets have different methods, what we need to know is whether Jasper has a UTi or not ,


Thanks. Again, I can only say what the vet told me - or rather what I heard them say if my testimony is distrusted. It does sound as though perhaps a different protocol should have been followed but once more I don't know why it wasn't.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

You might not be hearing them properly, then again, you might have vets that are really poor at communicating with their clients and being transparent about what they are doing and why.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> If you choose to believe that that is not what was actually said then there's really nothing more that I can say.


No one has said that they disbelieve you either.
Personally in your shoes I would be looking for a new vet...It really isn't fair of the vet to send off for tests that you have no idea what they are or how much they will cost. In the same vein (although with the NHS we aren't billed) a GP would not send off a urine sample without detailing what tests they will be running.
I'm not vet bashing (love my vets, and most vets are great) but a small minority will hear that a dog is insured so just run with it because money isn't an issue...if this is the case, with Jaspers medical history I would look for a vet that wants to work with you.


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## Guest (Feb 6, 2020)

Theres clearly confusion as if your vet suspected UTI the reasonable thing to do is to give antibiotics immediately and possibly replace it when the accurate lab results arrive. 
If your vet doesn't think its UTI then why are they testing urine sample in the lab ? 
My suggestion is simply to call the vet tomorrow morning and ask what are they testing cause nobody here can answer that.
How much does your puppy drink?cause having a wee every 20min or more sounds very excessive!


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

StormyThai said:


> No one has said that they disbelieve you either.
> Personally in your shoes I would be looking for a new vet...It really isn't fair of the vet to send off for tests that you have no idea what they are or how much they will cost. In the same vein (although with the NHS we aren't billed) a GP would not send off a urine sample without detailing what tests they will be running.
> I'm not vet bashing (love my vets, and most vets are great) but a small minority will hear that a dog is insured so just run with it because money isn't an issue...if this is the case, with Jaspers medical history I would look for a vet that wants to work with you.


Well they didn't say exactly which tests they are running but I have already paid. It was about £80


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Ask for an itemised receipt, the tests will be listed


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Whiteshadow said:


> Theres clearly confusion as if your vet suspected UTI the reasonable thing to do is to give antibiotics immediately and possibly replace it when the accurate lab results arrive.
> If your vet doesn't think its UTI then why are they testing urine sample in the lab ?
> My suggestion is simply to call the vet tomorrow morning and ask what are they testing cause nobody here can answer that.
> How much does your puppy drink?cause having a wee every 20min or more sounds very excessive!


I can call and ask tomorrow. I wondered if he might have a uti and took him to the vet for an appointment, the vet said he probably doesn't have one because other than frequent urination has not showing other symptoms such as bloody urine and struggling to pee. But they did say that if I could get a urine sample they would test it. So, I got a sample and asked to have it tested
Since they were testing for a uti I thought I may as well ask for it to be tested for anything else that might be causing frequent urination.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

StormyThai said:


> Ask for an itemised receipt, the tests will be listed


Thank you, I can do that.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Whiteshadow said:


> How much does your puppy drink?cause having a wee every 20min or more sounds very excessive!


He barely drinks (to the point that I considered mixing water in with his food but I decided against as he does have laps every now and then and is on wet food anyway).


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

My Yorkie is 8 and will go about 4 hours after drinking. She doesn’t have a UTI and isn’t diabetic. They tried her on medication but she doesn’t have incontinence and it started to make her sick. It was a long time ago since she went through testing but I remember the vet drew a picture to show what he thought was wrong with her kidneys. He clearly thought I needed graphics! The next level of investigation would only have led to an operation so I declined. I’d love for her to hold it longer but I’m not risking her dying just so I can get a decent sleep.

He’s still only a puppy and tiny so hopefully it’s just because he doesn’t have full bladder control yet.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Jobeth said:


> My Yorkie is 8 and will go about 4 hours after drinking. She doesn't have a UTI and isn't diabetic. They tried her on medication but she doesn't have incontinence and it started to make her sick. It was a long time ago since she went through testing but I remember the vet drew a picture to show what he thought was wrong with her kidneys. He clearly thought I needed graphics! The next level of investigation would only have led to an operation so I declined. I'd love for her to hold it longer but I'm not risking her dying just so I can get a decent sleep.
> 
> He's still only a puppy and tiny so hopefully it's just because he doesn't have full bladder control yet.


How big is your yorkie? Was wondering if size can make a difference to how long they can hold it. Did she pee every 20 mins or less as a 15 week old puppy?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Jasper goes to bed at 10pm and gets up at 7am. Last night I set an alarm for 1am and 4am so that he had an opportunity to pee every 3 hours. I must have slept through te 1am alarm because I woke up at 4am and immediately assumed he must have wet his bed. Well, he was still asleep and hadn't had any accidents. Took him outside anyway but that does go to show that he can go for 6 hours without peeing (though obviously he was asleep which does make a difference).


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

She is 4kg now but wakes up to go to the toilet. If he can go for 6 hours overnight that’s longer than she can wait. I really think he’s just still at the toilet training stage rather than anything being wrong with him. Hopefully the results will be back soon and it was worth getting him checked.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Jobeth said:


> She is 4kg now but wakes up to go to the toilet. If he can go for 6 hours overnight that's longer than she can wait. I really think he's just still at the toilet training stage rather than anything being wrong with him. Hopefully the results will be back soon and it was worth getting him checked.


I think you're right, I'd be surprised if he does have a uti. Seemed worth checking, though.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Vets called and Jasper’s urine results came back (a lot sooner than they had said they would at first) and he’s all clear.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

April Pearl said:


> Vets called and Jasper's urine results came back (a lot sooner than they had said they would at first) and he's all clear.


Great news! 
So what did they test his urine for?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

O2.0 said:


> Great news!
> So what did they test his urine for?


Didn't ask but I assume it included uti.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I dont think it is good news. A dog peeing that frequently, if there is no UTI then what is wrong.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Blitz said:


> I dont think it is good news. A dog peeing that frequently, if there is no UTI then what is wrong.


Not sure there is anything wrong. He clearly can hold on for much longer since he can go for hours without peeing when he is asleep. I think that when he is awake he just sees not reason not to just pee whenever he feels like it. Hopefully when he knows only outside is for peeing we can work on increasing the time he is holding on for when awake.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

April Pearl said:


> Didn't ask but I assume it included uti.


You didn't ask? After all that discussion yesterday, it didn't occur to you to ask the vet what they tested for? 
Did you get your itemized bill?

Honestly I don't think Jasper has a UTI, I think he's just a small, young, puppy with little control and zero attention span and he's just not there yet with potty training. 
But this weirdness with your vet leaves me rather annoyed for you. Either you're being taken advantage of because Jasper is insured, or you have a completely incompetent vet, or something....


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

O2.0 said:


> You didn't ask? After all that discussion yesterday, it didn't occur to you to ask the vet what they tested for?
> Did you get your itemized bill?
> 
> Honestly I don't think Jasper has a UTI, I think he's just a small, young, puppy with little control and zero attention span and he's just not there yet with potty training.
> But this weirdness with your vet leaves me rather annoyed for you. Either you're being taken advantage of because Jasper is insured, or you have a completely incompetent vet, or something....


No I didn't ask or get an itemized receipt. They said he was all clear and that was all the information that I needed.

"All the discussion yesterday" was by other people, not me. I was perfectly happy for my vet to test my dog's urine for anything they believed could have been causing frequent urination and did not feel that any more information on this was necessary. They did this, it all came back negative, therefore I'm content.

I appreciate you say that you are annoyed for me but really it is coming across as though you are annoyed with me and I can't understand why because it's really not that big of a deal and doesn't negatively affect you at all.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Honestly @April Pearl I don't understand any vets not giving an itemised bill, or explaining tests etc. It's all very unfamiliar to most of us here. I think this is what many of us are confused with. We are usually the first too, to stop people coming on here a slating vets but your first post about how your vet spoke about 'you could have a urine sample done but it doesn't sound like a uti because no straining or blood' honestly it's the first time I thought you really need to change vets. I had to speak up, not just to you but to others reading here, the lurkers who are thinking ah that's OK my own dog can't have a Uti then. It was such poor advise, for such a common problem. It honestly bewildered me.

The results back in sooner, rather than later odd again when they are probably growing cultures from the urine. Then to say clear. I expect that from a test result from phoning my GP to be honest, but not a vet. Never a vet. Even with an all clear it comes with so that means this, we have ruled out this, that and the other so it's probably behavioural. As first line before a good behaviourist will see you a good vet check is in order which should include bloods. I have been there many years ago. My vet didn't just say oh yes bloods are clear, explained what is OK and yes we will give you a referral.. Same as always when things have been clear, and I have dealt with various vets over my time. Some have had appalling people skills but giving results for anything always professional.

I honestly think the negativity as you see it, is towards the vet here and not yourself. The treatment towards Jasper and you for lack of explanation is terrible and often people come her asking if they should go to another vet sometimes for something very little, to me this would be a big reason to change vets.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Can we please try and be more supportive ?
Reading through this I agree with April that the criticism of Jasper's care by the vet does come across as annoyance with her for not asking the right questions.
If I was on the receiving end of these comments I would be running for the hills !


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

April Pearl said:


> He clearly can hold on for much longer since he can go for hours without peeing when he is asleep. I think that when he is awake he just sees not reason not to just pee whenever he feels like it.


Just to say, that you shouldn't compare ability to hold urine when asleep to ability to compare urine when awake. When the body (any body, dog, human, other species) is asleep urine is created a whole lot slower, so the bladder fills up much more slowly. Being able to hold 6hrs worth of pee when asleep is much less actual liquid than 6hrs of pee when awake. So when house training (and indeed for old age and with any health issues) you need to look at them separately.

Coincidently, this is why a relaxed dog when left alone can hold pee longer too, as when they nap urine production drops. So another angle for looking at keeping stress to a minimum when teaching about being left alone.


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## Sarah-p1 (Jan 19, 2020)

Torin. said:


> Just to say, that you shouldn't compare ability to hold urine when asleep to ability to compare urine when awake. When the body (any body, dog, human, other species) is asleep urine is created a whole lot slower, so the bladder fills up much more slowly. Being able to hold 6hrs worth of pee when asleep is much less actual liquid than 6hrs of pee when awake. So when house training (and indeed for old age and with any health issues) you need to look at them separately.
> 
> Coincidently, this is why a relaxed dog when left alone can hold pee longer too, as when they nap urine production drops. So another angle for looking at keeping stress to a minimum when teaching about being left alone.


I agree! There could be another reason for the frequent pee, my pup (also named Jasper) used to pee abit when he was excited now he is older he doesn't do it anymore! Jasper is so tiny I can imagine his bladder is tiny too! He is also still at the early stages of toilet training, they also pick up on your stress and anxiety so if you are feeling about stressed/anxious about it all then he could be picking up on that. Hope you get it all sorted


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Sarah-p1 said:


> Jasper is so tiny I can imagine his bladder is tiny too!


His bladder will be in relation to his size, so he will be drinking, eating appropriate to his size, and therefore he will be eliminating waste appropriate for his size.

Although toy breeds can be slower to mature, and hence why they usually stay with their breeder longer than 8 weeks. By the time they go to their new home, the sphincter is developed to work and be trained by toilet training.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

SusieRainbow said:


> Can we please try and be more supportive ?
> Reading through this I agree with April that the criticism of Jasper's care by the vet does come across as annoyance with her for not asking the right questions.
> If I was on the receiving end of these comments I would be running for the hills !


I think the OP has had much support on this thread, but, when something appears to be wrong or even strange about a thread, then it isn't cruel to question it.

I think it perfectly reasonable, when someone posts saying their Vet is "testing for everything", that some will ask what he is testing for.

Even now, when the OP is told by her Vet that the pup is clear, she doesn't ask clear from what?

I wish to be honest. I find something odd about this whole scenario.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Rafa said:


> I think it perfectly reasonable, when someone posts saying their Vet is "testing for everything", that some will ask what he is testing for.


Well ok but the vet initially offered to check for a uti, I said can you check for a uti and anything else which might cause frequent urination. They said they'd test for everything. I'm sorry my brain processes didn't work exactly as you would have expected but I was happy with that. I am looking after Jasper pretty much all the time, taking him out every 20mins etc. I am exhausted and probably not thinking at my best.



Rafa said:


> Even now, when the OP is told by her Vet that the pup is clear, she doesn't ask clear from what?


No, I didn't. Given what I knew the vets were testing for I knew that meant he was free of uti and anything else that they could test for which might be causing frequent urination. Again, that seemed satisfactory to me especially as I wasn't really expecting anything to be wrong and only asked for them to check for things beyond a uti to be on the safe side since he was having one test run anyway. But maybe I was wrong not to ask for more information. Once more, I can only apologise for my apparently heinous mistake.



Rafa said:


> Iwhen something appears to be wrong or even strange about a thread, then it isn't cruel to question it.
> 
> I wish to be honest. I find something odd about this whole scenario.


There is something wrong or strange about my thread? Something odd about the situation? I don't know what you mean but it is beginning to sound as though I am suspected of either being a poor care giver, or of lying about the situation although I have no idea to what end.

Quite honestly, to me the whole urine test business seems like a storm in a teacup and I've no idea how this tiny innocent thing could have been whipped up into such a furore.

If it is either my competency or honesty that is under attack then I am extremely hurt. I thought that I was welcome on this forum but if that that is not the case then I will show my way out.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

Have you got any recent photos? I’d love to see how he looks now.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

In relation to April's last post I'm closing this thread.
I might, or might not reopen it in a day or two.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Well Jasper had his baer test yesterday and he is confirmed deaf in both ears. That was expected but it was interesting to discover anyway.

He's doing well with hand signals, though. He has VERY good recal (though obviously he has to be looking at you in order to see that you want him to come).

As I've probably mentioned before he can be a bit mouthy but I've been giving him treats for letting himself be stroked without play biting and distracting with toys. He chews hands much less now - at least at home anyway, he got a bit mouthy at the vets a few days ago. Feet are a little more difficult since he still likes to chase them and pounce on them. But, I have started to walk with a treat in my hand held out to the side and he knows just to follow by my side when I do that which has helped. I also give him treats for coming up to me without pouncing on my feet and have just started trying to walk out of the room when he goes for the feet.

Jasper is also thriving well health wise. He is now 770g so over twice what he was when we got him.

The only slight thing is that he seems to have quite a sensitive stomach. He was on the Royal Canin convalescence liquid diet when sent home with RVC but every time we tried switching him over onto puppy food he got loose stools. So, the vets suggested we put him onto Hills i/d. His poo has been fine on that except when I thought I'd feed him more (he's already eating what he needs according to his size, a bit more probably, but he always looks as though he would eat more so I thought I'd offer more) and that gave him diarrhoea. Brought down his intake to what it was and his poos are fine now. However, it does show that his stomach is quite sensitive to changes. So he should probably stick on a diet for sensitive stomachs. But at the same time I would like him to be on a puppy food. Foes anyone know of a food for puppies with sensitive stomachs?

Toilet training is not going well. He knows when I take him out to the terrace I want him to pee and he does pee... But he is still also managing to pee in the house despite being taken outside every 20 minutes or more frequently if he begins to show signs or has just eaten or drank or played or woken up etc. He also is still having accidents in his crate if I don't get to him within about 30 seconds of him waking up.

Side note: he also won't pee outside on walks which is weird but not the end of the world.

I did something really stupid today. My mum has got very worried about me because the worry regarding toilet training Jasper is starting to really affect me to the point where I am just so exhausted all the time and losing weight. I know it sounds silly but its frightening that in 4 weeks I've made no progress.

Anyway, this morning my mum said I should try puppy pads again. So I put some down, took him to them at likely times and rewarded him for going on them. He picked up the puppy pads again really quickly and started going to them of his own accord... But of course this is a bad idea! I shouldn't have done it! I've ruined 4 weeks of groundwork now. I was just tired and desperate and not thinking clearly.

I could honestly just sit down and cry about this for hours. I don't know what to do. I can't get anything done because Jasper is peeing so often and I've been trying (except yes I just stupidly messed up royally today) but getting no where. It wouldn't be so bad if I could put him somewhere he wouldn't pee so that I could get some work done for an hour or so but he does go to the toilet in his crate so if he's not sleepy then he will just pee in there. And he isn't always sleepy when I would need him to sleep.

I know I'm incompetent and failing miserably at this. I just wish he could/would hold on for longer than 10 to 20 minutes at a time, it makes everything so difficult.

Anyway sorry for getting so negative. I welcome criticism but please give it in a kind/friendly tone. I honestly don't need to be made to feel any worse than I already do!

Here are some pictures of Jasper to lighten the mood:









































Yeah, I think his crate is too big...


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## PawsOnMe (Nov 1, 2012)

Dont feel bad about using the puppy pads. In your situation where he is peeing so frequently I would do the same. It wont be forever and once he has better bladder control and is holding it for longer you can then start toilet training outdoors again. 

He's adorable, 99% fluff!


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

PawsOnMe said:


> Dont feel bad about using the puppy pads. In your situation where he is peeing so frequently I would do the same. It wont be forever and once he has better bladder control and is holding it for longer you can then start toilet training outdoors again.
> 
> He's adorable, 99% fluff!


Thank you very much. I guess the thought behind puppy pads was that if he could be trained to just go on puppy pads then if he needs to go, say 5 minutes after he last peed, he can just make his way to a pad instead of having an accident on the floor as he would do now. Ugh I just worry that it feels wrong to use them.

Haha you'd be surprised but he is actually very un-fluffy for a pomeranian puppy! He's not a very well bred pom and both his parents were a bit lacking in the coat department so that's to be expected. Makes grooming easier


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

PawsOnMe said:


> Dont feel bad about using the puppy pads. In your situation where he is peeing so frequently I would do the same. It wont be forever and once he has better bladder control and is holding it for longer you can then start toilet training outdoors again.
> 
> He's adorable, 99% fluff!


I agree. Yes using puppy pads is not ideal, but you have to weigh it up against your sanity. Once he is able to hold it for longer you can retry it outdoors. If you can then I would still try to take him outdoors as much as possible and perhaps only offer him a treat for outdoor toilets to encourage them.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

Why don’t you get an indoor dog toilet?


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## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

Oh my, my heart really goes out to you. Your pup did not have the best start, to me, he will take longer to mature with potty training/bladder control. I would let him use the puppy pads for now. It will save you a whole lot of stress if he uses them (I know it did for me) and give you some breathing space. There is plenty of time for him to go outside and you may also get a better idea how often he actually does pee when the pressure is off. Every 20 mins might just be stressing him out too with how cold and wet it is at the moment. Please take your mums advice, some dogs just need more time, just like some human babies need nappies longer than others, and puppy pads are not the work of the devil, they can work well. The only thing I had against them was the cost, they saved my sanity so were worth the bother
Oh just wanted to say he is looking gorgeous so you must be doing something right.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

How old is Jasper now ? I agree it’s not the end of the world using pads for now. It may be easier when the weather improves.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Tbh I’d take the line of least resistance here and use the puppy pads too, for now at least.

It’s really not worth stressing over imo.

He’s about the size of a cat and they have indoor litter trays, after all. Had he been a Great Dane though ..... 

Maybe as the weather improves you can consider a piece of turf in a tray, with a puppy pad on, and gradually reduce the size of the pad over time.

Once he’s used to toileting on grass and has better control the transition of the tray to outside the back door might be easier?


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Jobeth said:


> Why don't you get an indoor dog toilet?


Maybe something like this.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hompet-Tra...g+toilet+little+rascals&qid=1582229601&sr=8-1


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

I have a lot of trouble with my dogs toilet training and my vet suggested going back a step and using pads again, as she said there is no shame in having to take a step back if needed.


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## Jason25 (May 8, 2018)

April Pearl said:


> Well Jasper had his baer test yesterday and he is confirmed deaf in both ears. That was expected but it was interesting to discover anyway.
> 
> He's doing well with hand signals, though. He has VERY good recal (though obviously he has to be looking at you in order to see that you want him to come).
> 
> ...


Please stop being so hard on yourself, you'll look back on this in a year or so and wonder what all the fuss was about lol.

Do whatever works for you, if you gotta use puppy pads then do it, who cares it's not the end of world right 

Mouthing is normal, mine didn't stop the puppy biting until like 6/7 months old lol and now at nearly 2 years old the cheeky meatball still tries mouthing my hands lol

Just try to relax and enjoy your puppy, there is light at the end of the tunnel, he looks lovely by the way


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## karenmc (Feb 3, 2018)

Look at how far you came to get Jasper where he is now and how you are working on training him to follow hand signals. Toilet training may take a bit longer but you'll get there.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Thank you everyone for your kindness and advice re toilet training. I'm sorry for not responding before now, I just seem to rarely get a spare moment!

I did decide to continue with the toilet training outdoors with the thought that if it continued to get no where I could turn to puppy pads or an indoor toilet. I still think that if all else fails an indoor toilet might serve as a last resort.

I will probably jinx things by saying this but toilet training with Jasper has actually started to improve today! The key has been providing constant access to the garden.

Previously, Jasper couldn't get into the garden by himself because he can't climb over the bottom of the door frame and also because there is a step outside going down into the garden. But,a few days ago we made little steps for him going up to the door frame and down again on the other side and then down from the step to the garden so that he can now climb out by himself. I have been encouraging him to climb out by himself.

Today, I had the idea if leaving the back door permanently open and now he is going out of his own accord and peeing outside. When I say of his own accord of course I am coming with him and rewarding him but I mean that if he needs to pee, say, 10 minutes after he last went, instead of going on the floor he heads for the door and climbs out. Ok he is still peeing every 10 to 20 minutes but at least it's outside now!

I am a bit concerned that he will never start holding on for longer but at least this is progress.


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2020)

Well done April! If he actually learned that outside is the place to wee that's 50% of toilet training done but by now he needs to be physically closer if not able to hold it. How old is Jasper now? As every 10-20 min still sounds very excessive to me.
I hope it is just arrested development due to his issues in early puppyhood but suspect there might be a problem there. What is your vet saying about the constant weeing?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Whiteshadow said:


> Well done April! If he actually learned that outside is the place to wee that's 50% of toilet training done but by now he needs to be physically closer if not able to hold it. How old is Jasper now? As every 10-20 min still sounds very excessive to me.
> I hope it is just arrested development due to his issues in early puppyhood but suspect there might be a problem there. What is your vet saying about the constant weeing?


He is 4 months old (18 weeks). The thing is, I know that he CAN hold on for longer than 10-20 minutes because he will sit on my lap playing with a toy for 30 minutes or more during which time he isn't peeing but obviously he can't sit on my lap ALL the time! I think he just isn't bothering to hold on. I hope that eventually he will start to do so but worry in case he doesn't.

The vet tested for a UTI and he doesn't have one. They said he's probably just not got the hang of toilet training yet.


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2020)

He is still very young pups don't develop full control till they are 6 months old. My girl got it at 15 weeks .
Just enjoy Jasper and fingers cross he'll be able to hold it better soon but even if there is s problm it's not the end of the world. My friend had a Maltese that used cats toilet all her life cause she was tiny dog with tiny poo and it worked for them but still early Days. Jasper going out is great development!


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

If you are keeping the back door open you are doing what most dogs will naturally do.. Toilet away from where they sleep... He won't be learning to hold, he won't see the garden anything other than an extension of your house.. So when back door has to be closed he won't necessarily run to the back door again he will toilet where he seems fit. So if he's been toileting on grass and liking it he's likely to toilet on soft areas, carpets rugs sofas.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

lullabydream said:


> If you are keeping the back door open you are doing what most dogs will naturally do.. Toilet away from where they sleep... He won't be learning to hold, he won't see the garden anything other than an extension of your house.. So when back door has to be closed he won't necessarily run to the back door again he will toilet where he seems fit. So if he's been toileting on grass and liking it he's likely to toilet on soft areas, carpets rugs sofas.


He isn't peeing on the grass. I have been taking him to the terrace to pee and that is where he goes when I leave the door open. We had a lot of trouble with the grass. He doesn't seem to like to pee on it, tries to tear it up and eat it if you stand him on there and there is great difficulty telling whether he has peed on it anyway since he doesnt squat so a visible puddle is usually required to confirm that he has peed. He probably should be going on the grass however and I was going to work on that once he was more confirmed in going outside.

I got the impression that he was peeing outside because that is where I had been taking him and rewarding him for going (especially since, even before I left the door open, he would automatically pee outside in the spot I had been taking him to, when I took him there). I was going to keep this up for a bit and then start closing the door and hope he would still automatically go to the door when he needed a wee.

I don't know what to do if this is actually bad news because this seemed like the first bit of actual progress that we had made. If I don't keep the door open then I know he is going to go back to peeing inside whenever he feels he would like a pee and once again it will be impossible to prevent accidents since this is all the time.

Maybe I should just go for an indoor toilet so that he has somewhere he can take himself when he needs to go (the problem is his needing to go so often and outside of the 20 minute intervals I leave between trips outside). However, it seemed as though leaving the back door open was a happy medium: like an indoor toilet, he can get to it himself and so will pee there instead of on the floor but at the same time it is outside and gets him used to not peeing in the house. But if that's not the case then we may as well do an indoor toilet. It is dispiriting because I thought things were finally looking up.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2020)

It might have been already suggested but this thread is so long ... Can you install a cat flap? This way Jasper can always toilet in the garden.
I wish I could do it

Of course that doesn't solve the very short intervals and I personally dont know any dog/bitch who doesn't squat ( or cocks their leg when a bit older) when weeing. He does squat when he pops I assume?
But in that point in time I will give him and yourself a little break from vets and house training stress and hope his growing will improve the situation. You can reconsider in few weeks.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Tbh I think it’s just going to be a bit of trial and error with Jasper and looking at the positives, this current routine is working insofar as he’s toileting outside and able to be praised for it (and you’re not cleaning up lots of accidents in the house .

I think I would go with that for now and gradually try to eke him out a bit longer in between. 

Otherwise you’ll drive yourself crazy stressing over it.

Worst case scenario long term could be a litter tray by the door if it has to be shut when you can’t supervise fully and if he never quite gets it.

As he’s been given the all clear by the vet, maybe he’s just going to be slow to develop.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

He is still very young. It sounds like he is doing quite well try not to worry. We were still having accidents at this age (not me Loki ) There is some good advice above and an indoor toilet wouldn’t be the end of the world but don’t give up yet. 

Ps any updated piccies he’s so cute.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Whiteshadow said:


> He is still very young pups don't develop full control till they are 6 months old. My girl got it at 15 weeks .
> Just enjoy Jasper and fingers cross he'll be able to hold it better soon but even if there is s problm it's not the end of the world. My friend had a Maltese that used cats toilet all her life cause she was tiny dog with tiny poo and it worked for them but still early Days. Jasper going out is great development!


Hopefully in 2 months things will improve then!

I don't think an indoor toilet would be the end of the world but I do worry about leg lifting in the house when he is older.



Whiteshadow said:


> It might have been already suggested but this thread is so long ... Can you install a cat flap? This way Jasper can always toilet in the garden.
> I wish I could do it


We do have a cat flap already actually (since we have a cat)! But it is currently fenced off from Jasper as we don't want him in the garden unsupervised just yet (he tries to eat everything in sight) and there is a bit of a drop from the cat flap to the ground which he would fall down. Maybe in the long term he could use the cat flap although that plan is complicated by the fact that I may be moving to a flat in the next few years and would not have a garden/cat flap there.



Lurcherlad said:


> Tbh I think it's just going to be a bit of trial and error with Jasper and looking at the positives, this current routine is working insofar as he's toileting outside and able to be praised for it (and you're not cleaning up lots of accidents in the house .
> 
> I think I would go with that for now and gradually try to eke him out a bit longer in between.
> 
> ...


This sounds like a good idea. Hopefully once he is 100% on board with outside = toilet he will begin to hold on and longer intervals between going out won't be a problem. Otherwise like you say we may need some kind of indoor toilet as 'back up'.



Boxer123 said:


> He is still very young. It sounds like he is doing quite well try not to worry. We were still having accidents at this age (not me Loki ) There is some good advice above and an indoor toilet wouldn't be the end of the world but don't give up yet.
> 
> Ps any updated piccies he's so cute.


Thank you. I'll try not to worry and I wont give up just yet. Hopefully things all fall into place whether that means he starts holding on or we do an indoor toilet if all else fails.

Here are some pictures!






























Our cat is slightly less afraid of him now!


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

OMG! He’s soooo cute!


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Oh , he is utterly adorable and soooooo tiny ! 
It sounds to me that Jasper is making good progress, going to the door is a very good step and shows association !
Both my adult dogs have had to relearn house training when I got them, I would say it took them much longer than Jasper to alert me to their need.
Personally I don't think an indoor toilet is the end of the world ,it sounds as though we're in for some more bad weather so could be handy. Just follow your instinct, but if you decide to use one use some artificial grass on top, you can wash it.
As for the scent marking potential, yes ,it's a pain, Bobby tends to do it if he's anxious or excited. If he does it I just clean it up and put a belly band on him for a bit. 
April, you really are doing a great job , try to celebrate the positive steps and not worry about the negatives !


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Oh he's tiny and so cute... the look on the cats face says it all, I'm boss round here.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

SusieRainbow said:


> Oh , he is utterly adorable and soooooo tiny !
> It sounds to me that Jasper is making good progress, going to the door is a very good step and shows association !
> Both my adult dogs have had to relearn house training when I got them, I would say it took them much longer than Jasper to alert me to their need.
> Personally I don't think an indoor toilet is the end of the world ,it sounds as though we're in for some more bad weather so could be handy. Just follow your instinct, but if you decide to use one use some artificial grass on top, you can wash it.
> ...


Thank you so much, it is really great to get some encouragement! You mention scent marking, do you think he could be doing that?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Happy Paws2 said:


> Oh he's tiny and so cute... the look on the cats face says it all, I'm boss round here.


I was actually just thinking how much bigger he was haha. He's 835g now so over double what he was when he got home from hospital.

Our cat (Mole) is still a little wary of him but does go up for a sniff off and on. He doesn't seem to know what to make of Jasper!


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

So I've been mostly keeping the back door closed now but when I open it and Jasper wants to pee he will come over and go out. He has also on a few occasions today gone up to the door and climbed onto the little steps we made for him and waited for me to open the door so that he can go out and pee - he even did this this morning when he wanted a poo and although he hesitated a bit did go out and do his business despite the rain. So I am feeling cautiously optimistic.

ETA: However he did just pee on the floor so perhaps I was a bit premature in feeling hopeful. Sigh.


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> So I've been mostly keeping the back door closed now but when I open it and Jasper wants to pee he will come over and go out. He has also on a few occasions today gone up to the door and climbed onto the little steps we made for him and waited for me to open the door so that he can go out and pee - he even did this this morning when he wanted a poo and although he hesitated a bit did go out and do his business despite the rain. So I am feeling cautiously optimistic.
> 
> ETA: However he did just pee on the floor so perhaps I was a bit premature in feeling hopeful. Sigh.


That's brilliant news.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> So I've been mostly keeping the back door closed now but when I open it and Jasper wants to pee he will come over and go out. He has also on a few occasions today gone up to the door and climbed onto the little steps we made for him and waited for me to open the door so that he can go out and pee - he even did this this morning when he wanted a poo and although he hesitated a bit did go out and do his business despite the rain. So I am feeling cautiously optimistic.


That's really good progress !
My dogs are not good at asking to go out but if they come and sit looking at me I send them. out.
I would doubt that Jasper is scent marking yet, he's very young. Most dogs start it at about 6 months.
ETA - house training feels like 1 step forward and 2 steps back.. He will get there !


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

SusieRainbow said:


> That's really good progress !
> My dogs are not good at asking to go out but if they come and sit looking at me I send them. out.
> I would doubt that Jasper is scent marking yet, he's very young. Most dogs start it at about 6 months.
> ETA - house training feels like 1 step forward and 2 steps back.. He will get there !


Other than that one incident he has been quite good about going to the door today. This evening in particular he does seem to have the hang of going there.

One problem though is that he is going to the back door and standing on his little steps to be let out very often. This evening it has been every 10 minutes and of course I have to let him out every time because I want him to learn to show me that he needs to the toilet by going to the back door. He is definitely going there because he wants a wee because every time he goes there and I open the door he goes out, pees, then comes back inside. I hope that once we have more fully established going out to pee I can stop having to open the door every time he 'asks'.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Despite the POURING rain today Jasper just now went from the sitting room into the kitchen and to the back door and stood on his steps to go outside. When I opened the door he did go outside and poo although he clearly was not happy about the rain. Feeling quite proud lol


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Aarghh and he just peed on the floor again. My fault, it had been about 20 mins since he last went but he didn't go outside when I opened the door so I figured he was ok. This rain is not helping, he hates to go out in it.


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

He will get it, my healthy had no issues pup was still consistent peeing indoors until she was 7 months old, she just didn't signal to me or herself that she needed to go so would just stop whatever she was doing and pee even after going out in the garden for long stretches of time, one day it just twigged and she got it, but I feel your rain pain, I got Hector in Dec 2013 when it just rained day and night for what seemed like months and he hated the rain and the wet grass but he survived and got the hang of peeing outdoors, but still now he will hold his bladder for extraordinary amounts of time if it's raining as he hates wet feet.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

I've had problems this morning, we have torrential rain and apart from first thing both dgs have declined offers of garden visits.
Only one accident so far, but the mop is on stand-by !


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

SusieRainbow said:


> I've had problems this morning, we have torrential rain and apart from first thing both dgs have declined offers of garden visits.
> Only one accident so far, but the mop is on stand-by !


I'm glad it hasn't just been Jasper who has been difficult about the rain!

For the past two days there has been so much rain that I had to put a pee pad by the back door. Jasper was just not peeing in the rain (despite me holding an umbrella over him) and then coming in and going on the floor. I figured this was better in the short term but I hope it hasn't confused him since he did begin often going to the pee pad of his own accord when he wanted to go.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

On a positive note, Jasper slept through the night for the first time last night (10:30pm to 6am)!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Loki hates the rain and would rather hold it than go outside. When he was little he would just piddle on the floor


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Jasper had a bath...

Before:









After:
















Why does his little wet face remind me of Dobby the house elf?


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Ha ha oh my god he’s so small.


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

Oh bless him!


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## Jason25 (May 8, 2018)

April Pearl said:


> Jasper had a bath...
> 
> Before:
> View attachment 432422
> ...


His head is like the size of the plughole he so tiny :Hilarious more pictures please


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Jason25 said:


> His head is like the size of the plughole he so tiny :Hilarious more pictures please


Haha he does have a small head under all that fluff!

I think I've posted most of my pictures of him (I really should take more but I spend most of the time entertaining him/making sure he doesn't pee in the house or eat or chew something unsuitable!).

Here are some more pictures, though:

















A rare moment of stillness after he tired himself out playing with his toys this evening:


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## Dakota125 (Feb 29, 2020)

He is super cute


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## Kittynanna (Feb 15, 2015)

He is so adorable, I love reading about his progress and seeing his photos.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Things were getting better with house training. He was waiting by the door when he wanted the toilet and we had no accidents for a few days... But now this awful heavy rain again and he is back to peeing on the floor and not wanting to pee outside. I am so so so fed up with the constant rain!


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> Things were getting better with house training. He was waiting by the door when he wanted the toilet and we had no accidents for a few days... But now this awful heavy rain again and he is back to peeing on the floor and not wanting to pee outside. I am so so so fed up with the constant rain!


Oh, tell me about it ! My mop was well used yesterday !


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

SusieRainbow said:


> Oh, tell me about it ! My mop was well used yesterday !


Sorry you've had problems too  but (selfishly) it's a comfort to know that it's not just Jasper!


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> Sorry you've had problems too  but (selfishly) it's a comfort to know that it's not just Jasper!


But Bobby is 7 yrs old ! 
It's scent marking with him, worse when he's a bit anxious and greater volumes when he doesn't want to brave the weather.
My OH ( Bobby's most adored person in the whole world ) is away all week and Bobby is missing him. He's very mopey and whingy but his appetite not affected.


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

I just wanted to say that I understand the issues around toiletting indoors, I know its hard but try not to feel fed up about it, Bungo is 4 and due to him feeling anxious to toilet outside I still need a pad down for him, I take him out as much as I can and praise him when he goes outside, some days are better than others, but other days, like today with the heavy rain aren't so good.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

SusieRainbow said:


> But Bobby is 7 yrs old !
> It's scent marking with him, worse when he's a bit anxious and greater volumes when he doesn't want to brave the weather.
> My OH ( Bobby's most adored person in the whole world ) is away all week and Bobby is missing him. He's very mopey and whingy but his appetite not affected.


Ah scent marking. I wonder if Jasper will start doing that indoors too...

Poor Bobby! I hope he isn't missing your OH too much.



ForestWomble said:


> I just wanted to say that I understand the issues around toiletting indoors, I know its hard but try not to feel fed up about it, Bungo is 4 and due to him feeling anxious to toilet outside I still need a pad down for him, I take him out as much as I can and praise him when he goes outside, some days are better than others, but other days, like today with the heavy rain aren't so good.


It's not the toileting inside which I'm fed up but the weather - obviously I'd rather Jasper didn't pee inside but when the weather was better he wasn't doing so and it just gets frustrating that we have so much relentless rain so often because I think that things wouldn't be so bad if it would only stop raining! I check the weather forecast with great trepidation nowadays.

It's early days yet with Jasper but there is the potential that we will also need to get an indoor toilet because even on his good days he is asking to go out to pee every 10 to 20 minutes (more often every 10 minutes now). I'm not opposed to that if that's how things do work out.


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> Ah scent marking. I wonder if Jasper will start doing that indoors too...
> 
> Poor Bobby! I hope he isn't missing your OH too much.
> 
> ...


Oh yes, sorry for the miss understanding, I'm not completely with it. Yes the rain is getting me fed up too.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Ok update time. House training continues to be a challenge. Since he is usually good about asking to go out I have decided to try increasing the length of time between toilet breaks. So, I will only lead him out about every 30 mins rather than every 20 mins although I will take him out when he asks.

There has been some success with this strategy. Sometimes he has gone for more than 20 minutes without asking to go out, sometimes even more than 30 minutes. However, I have been noting down when he pees and this afternoon was quite typical:

2:17pm wee (asked) = 25mins since last wee
2:24pm wee (asked) = 7mins
2:36pm wee (asked) = 12 mins
2:45pm wee (asked) = 9 mins
2:47pm wee (went straight back out before I closed door) = 2mins
2:57pm wee (asked) = 10mins
3:02pm wee (asked) = 5mins

Not really sure what to do about this. Even when he lasts for longer it is hardly for long!

But, on the plus side, at least he is asking to go out as you can see.

Another issue is with leaving him alone - because he pees in his crate. He is accustomed to sleeping for one to two or even sometimes three hours at a time in his crate during the day when I or alternatively my mum are at home. When he wakes up, he pees almost straight away without even barking to alert us that he needs to go. So, we have a camera set up in front if his crate so that we can see as soon as he wakes up and rush him out.

The problem is that since he wees in his crate we cannot really leave him in there while nobody is at home, even if he is asleep, since he might wake up and wee.

So far, we have been able to adapt our schedules so that someone has been able to be at home with him at all times. This has meant that someone has always been able to get him out of his crate when he wakes up. But now due to various changes in working hours he is going to have to be left a few times a week for 2 or 3 hours. Clearly, we cannot just put him in his crate for that time and hope he will go to sleep and stay asleep.

Today, I had to be out for 2 hours and my mum was not at home. I left him sleeping in his crate with the door open. His crate was in a playpen with a pee pad in the pen with him.

When I came back, he had peed on the pee pad but pooped on the floor. He used to be pretty good at peeing and pooping on pee pads but I suppose since he has been going to the toilet outside he is less happy about pooping on them now. Also, I had to put the pee pad in a plastic holder which has a mesh over the pee pad since he likes to tear up pee pads and I thought leaving him unsupervised with one was asking for trouble. The mesh may have confused him I suppose.

Is leaving him with a pee pad like this ok? I worry that it might set back house training but I don't see any other solution since he will wee in his crate otherwise.

Health wise Jasper is doing well. He is 910g now so over 2lbs and almost 1kg! And we are switching him from hills id into a puppy food very slowly - substituting 1g of the id at every meal for 1g of the puppy food every 2 days.

And here are some pictures:








Our cat (Mole) is not afraid of Jasper any more but does seem to get vaguely irritated at being followed around (Jasper really wants to play with him).









They have been sniffing noses quite a lot!









Got his lead caught around a chair leg and awaited rescue.


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## Jason25 (May 8, 2018)

April Pearl said:


> Ok update time. House training continues to be a challenge. Since he is usually good about asking to go out I have decided to try increasing the length of time between toilet breaks. So, I will only lead him out about every 30 mins rather than every 20 mins although I will take him out when he asks.
> 
> There has been some success with this strategy. Sometimes he has gone for more than 20 minutes without asking to go out, sometimes even more than 30 minutes. However, I have been noting down when he pees and this afternoon was quite typical:
> 
> ...


hahaha oh my he's so cute and small


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Love him so cute ! I would put down a pee pad at this stage. I would possibly see a different vet just to get a second opinion on the pee problems.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> Love him so cute ! I would put down a pee pad at this stage. I would possibly see a different vet just to get a second opinion on the pee problems.


Thank you. Would you put down a pee pad just when we have to leave him (like I did yesterday in a playpen) or also have one down by the back door all the time? I am starting to be really tempted by the latter because constantly taking him out makes doing anything else really difficult. But then I reflect that he asks to go out which is really good and something I don't want to jeopardize. But at the same time this really can't go on.

We had been thinking of asking a different vet at the surgery about the constant weeing so might do that.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

April Pearl said:


> Thank you. Would you put down a pee pad just when we have to leave him (like I did yesterday in a playpen) or also have one down by the back door all the time? I am starting to be really tempted by the latter because constantly taking him out makes doing anything else really difficult. But then I reflect that he asks to go out which is really good and something I don't want to jeopardize. But at the same time this really can't go on.
> 
> We had been thinking of asking a different vet at the surgery about the constant weeing so might do that.


I could be wrong but I would be tempted to use one if it was the boxers it would be different the do massive wee s. I would definitely try and get to the bottom of it. Not sure if there is anything you can do but it's worth asking.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

April Pearl said:


> this afternoon was quite typical:
> 
> 2:17pm wee (asked) = 25mins since last wee
> 2:24pm wee (asked) = 7mins
> ...


I may be missing something because I haven't read the whole thread but this sounds like typical male dog weeing to me and not like there is anything wrong - male dogs don't empty their bladders, they do multiple little wees to mark their scent. On a typical walk my dog will wee about, I don't know, 30 times, 50 times? I haven't counted.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> I could be wrong but I would be tempted to use one if it was the boxers it would be different the do massive wee s. I would definitely try and get to the bottom of it. Not sure if there is anything you can do but it's worth asking.


Thank you, will definitely consider the pee pad.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

April Pearl said:


> Thank you, will definitely consider the pee pad.


Sometimes we have to consider our sanity as puppy owners!


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

JoanneF said:


> I may be missing something because I haven't read the whole thread but this sounds like typical male dog weeing to me and not like there is anything wrong - male dogs don't empty their bladders, they do multiple little wees to mark their scent. On a typical walk my dog will wee about, I don't know, 30 times, 50 times? I haven't counted.


Should he be scent marking at 4.5 months old? He has done this for as long as we have had him and I would have thought he was definitely too young to be scent marking at 8.5 weeks (or 10 weeks by the time he was out of hospital). If he is scent marking, would he be lifting his leg (he isn't)? It would also seems strange that he asks to go out in order to scent mark but then does it inside anyway if you don't let him out.

How would I stop him from scent marking all the time if that is what he is doing? Presumably male dogs don't all do this constantly at home too.

ETA: He is still circling before he wees. Not sure male dogs circle before scent marking?


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

JoanneF said:


> I may be missing something because I haven't read the whole thread but this sounds like typical male dog weeing to me and not like there is anything wrong - male dogs don't empty their bladders, they do multiple little wees to mark their scent. On a typical walk my dog will wee about, I don't know, 30 times, 50 times? I haven't counted.


Good point the boys are pee machines but can hold it for ages if it's raining outside.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Not sure that taking him out less often is working. He peed on the floor twice last night and once this morning so far. They were not after long periods (for example, this morning's puddle was produced 29 minutes after he last went) and have been small amounts so he hasn't really HAD to go.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> Not sure that taking him out less often is working. He peed on the floor twice last night and once this morning so far. They were not after long periods (for example, this morning's puddle was produced 29 minutes after he last went) and have been small amounts so he hasn't really HAD to go.


That doesn't sound right if he's producing really small amounts of urine I honestly think he's too young to scent mark. It sounds like he may have an infection/cystitis problem.

How quick is he toileting when he goes out. To be honest he's doing absolutely fabulous if he's signalling to be let out for the toilet. Many puppies don't understand this at this age they just see going to the door would be an indicator of them playing in the garden with lots of new smells and adventures

Just as a side note, not all male dogs cock their leg to urinate some never do.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

lullabydream said:


> That doesn't sound right if he's producing really small amounts of urine I honestly think he's too young to scent mark. It sounds like he may have an infection/cystitis problem.
> 
> How quick is he toileting when he goes out. To be honest he's doing absolutely fabulous if he's signalling to be let out for the toilet. Many puppies don't understand this at this age they just see going to the door would be an indicator of them playing in the garden with lots of new smells and adventures
> 
> Just as a side note, not all male dogs cock their leg to urinate some never do.


It's difficult to say if it's REALLY small amounts of urine (for him) because he has always peed so often and so never produces loads at a time (except if he has been sleeping). I'm not sure what volume he should be producing per wee but there is always only what I would call a small amount.

He did get checked for a UTI but nothing. Would cystitis be diagnosed via urinalysis? If so, that may have been checked at the same time.

He usually pees immediately or pretty much immediately after asking to go out so that seems to be his reason for asking to go outside.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> It's difficult to say if it's REALLY small amounts of urine (for him) because he has always peed so often and so never produces loads at a time (except if he has been sleeping). I'm not sure what volume he should be producing per wee but there is always only what I would call a small amount.
> 
> He did get checked for a UTI but nothing. Would cystitis be diagnosed via urinalysis? If so, that may have been checked at the same time.
> 
> He usually pees immediately or pretty much immediately after asking to go out so that seems to be his reason for asking to go outside.


To be honest small dogs do only pee small amounts, everything is in relation to their size. I think this is why they can often be described as hard to toilet train as a teaspoon amount of wee can easily be missed if for example you yourself have to go to toilet yourself, answer the door, so many things you can do in seconds ample time for a dog to wee and it can be missed easily. Unlike say a labrador puppy that you would easily notice the puddle of wee, not so easy a toy breed. No ones fault but the more the practice indoors and outdoor toileting the more they are not understanding.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

It sounds like a full time job ! Do you think he wees in his sleep ?
I agree,a second opinion can't hurt at this stage to investigate his urinary tract.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

lullabydream said:


> To be honest small dogs do only pee small amounts, everything is in relation to their size. I think this is why they can often be described as hard to toilet train as a teaspoon amount of wee can easily be missed if for example you yourself have to go to toilet yourself, answer the door, so many things you can do in seconds ample time for a dog to wee and it can be missed easily. Unlike say a labrador puppy that you would easily notice the puddle of wee, not so easy a toy breed. No ones fault but the more the practice indoors and outdoor toileting the more they are not understanding.


This is very true. If Jasper were not watched like a hawk all the time that he is awake I'm sure he would have accidents that we would miss!


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

SusieRainbow said:


> It sounds like a full time job ! Do you think he wees in his sleep ?
> I agree,a second opinion can't hurt at this stage to investigate his urinary tract.


It is a full time job and a very tiring one at that. He does not pee in his sleep (can confirm since he often sleeps on me) but does pee soon after waking up, so that you need to get him out of his crate very quickly after he wakes.

I'll see about asking another vet.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> It is a full time job and a very tiring one at that. He does not pee in his sleep (can confirm since he often sleeps on me) but does pee soon after waking up, so that you need to get him out of his crate very quickly after he wakes.
> 
> I'll see about asking another vet.


He doesn't seem to be getting the ability to hold.. I don't know if he's going out too often or there is something amiss.

I just can't get my head around this 30 minute or less urinating to be honest.


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## Sarah-p1 (Jan 19, 2020)

Do you give him lots of praise when he goes outside? Just wondering because when Jasper was that old he used to squat and pretend to wee or a tiny dribble would come out so he could get the praise, no UTI just a sucker for the term ‘good boy’ :Hilarious


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

lullabydream said:


> He doesn't seem to be getting the ability to hold.. I don't know if he's going out too often or there is something amiss.
> 
> I just can't get my head around this 30 minute or less urinating to be honest.


I don't get it either. I don't think it is because I take him out too often - rather, I have been taking him out often because he wees often. If I do not, he pees on the floor. For example, last night he asked to go out about 20 minutes after he last went. I decided to ignore him and try to get him to 35 mins. Tried to distract him with toys and some training but he kept asking. He peed on the floor at the 30 minute mark.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Sarah-p1 said:


> Do you give him lots of praise when he goes outside? Just wondering because when Jasper was that old he used to squat and pretend to wee or a tiny dribble would come out so he could get the praise, no UTI just a sucker for the term 'good boy' :Hilarious


He gets praise and treats for going outside. He is definitely producing urine. I don't think he just wants praise and treats because if he is not let out when he asks he pees inside.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

This morning I have put a pee pad down by the back door which I will be bringing Jasper to and rewarding him for peeing on so that hopefully, with time, he gets the idea that if outside is not available, he goes on the pad.

I know that pee pads are heavily frowned upon and I will still take him outside when I can too but I feel like I have given outside only a good go and because he is peeing so often it just isn't a good option for us right now. Hopefully this will work out well for everyone. Does this sound like an ok thing to do?

Oh and I am going to call the vets to try and get an appointment for a second opinion though I do believe it is probably a behavioural issue rather than a health one.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

As I’ve said before, I would do what works practically for him and for you and giving him a toilet area by the door sounds sensible in the circumstances.

He’s so little I don’t see having an indoor option as any worse than having a litter tray for a cat.

You can always look again at working on this when he’s older and the weather improves.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Lurcherlad said:


> As I've said before, I would do what works practically for him and for you and giving him a toilet area by the door sounds sensible in the circumstances.
> 
> He's so little I don't see having an indoor option as any worse than having a litter tray for a cat.
> 
> You can always look again at working on this when he's older and the weather improves.


Thank you so much for the reassurance. I guess I just feel a little like I've failed... But like you say we should do what works for us and for Jasper. I'll see how this new arrangement works out.

You're right, he probably won't be bigger than 4kg as an adult so cat sized really... And most cats do fine with litter trays.

Leg lifting is a concern but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. The pee pad holder we are using has raised sides but I am not sure they will be high enough when he is an adult if he starts to lift his leg.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Managed to get an appointment at the vets this afternoon which was with a different vet. She said that some puppies his age just do urinate a lot and that is probably what is going on here , since he tested negative for a uti. She said that given his age she didn't feel that scans of his bladder/kidneys were necessary but if he is still peeing this often when he is older then it might be time to reconsider. She did seem to think that a pee pad by the back door might not be such a bad idea.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

April Pearl said:


> Thank you so much for the reassurance. I guess I just feel a little like I've failed... But like you say we should do what works for us and for Jasper. I'll see how this new arrangement works out.
> 
> You're right, he probably won't be bigger than 4kg as an adult so cat sized really... And most cats do fine with litter trays.
> 
> Leg lifting is a concern but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. The pee pad holder we are using has raised sides but I am not sure they will be high enough when he is an adult if he starts to lift his leg.


Do not worry about leg lifting mine didn't for ages.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

https://www.dailydogstuff.com/best-indoor-dog-potty/

Have a look on here - lots of indoor dog toilet ideas.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> Do not worry about leg lifting mine didn't for ages.


Thank you, that is a relief to hear!



Lurcherlad said:


> https://www.dailydogstuff.com/best-indoor-dog-potty/
> 
> Have a look on here - lots of indoor dog toilet ideas.


Thank you very much for the link. We tried an artificial grass type one on the terrace outside because he was not liking to pee on the lawn but he pulled up and tried to eat the plastic grass so I don't think we will be using one like that. Several mesh ones are mentioned which I'll have a closer look at (as well as the other options). The one we are using right now is mesh and you can put a pee pad under the mesh which we have done. It also has raised sides which I thought might be good for when he does lift his leg although I am unsure that they are high enough. Then again that is not the immediate concern.


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## Animal Freak (Jun 12, 2017)

I've read you're thread and I wanted to sympathize! I recently had my first foster puppies and the house training is a nightmare. I'm sorry it's been so much harder for you. I kept the pups in a play pen so they couldn't pee everywhere or harass my other animals. They got to play in kitchen though and I did find they peed a _lot _while in there. I mean, I'd be lucky to get five to ten minutes without them peeing. And there were two of them, so I'd clean one puddle just for the other to pee. Then they'd both be running through it. :Meh They were totally fine in their play pen, though, and pretty much only went once every hour. We couldn't figure anything out other than maybe the cold tile floor made them feel like they needed to go more often. It would get really tiring having to clean pee so much, so I can only imagine what it must be like to deal with that constantly.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Animal Freak said:


> I've read you're thread and I wanted to sympathize! I recently had my first foster puppies and the house training is a nightmare. I'm sorry it's been so much harder for you. I kept the pups in a play pen so they couldn't pee everywhere or harass my other animals. They got to play in kitchen though and I did find they peed a _lot _while in there. I mean, I'd be lucky to get five to ten minutes without them peeing. And there were two of them, so I'd clean one puddle just for the other to pee. Then they'd both be running through it. :Meh They were totally fine in their play pen, though, and pretty much only went once every hour. We couldn't figure anything out other than maybe the cold tile floor made them feel like they needed to go more often. It would get really tiring having to clean pee so much, so I can only imagine what it must be like to deal with that constantly.


Thank you, that is so nice of you! I hope your foster puppies are doing well. I admire you for doing this with two, I think trying to house break two Jaspers at once would be so stressful!

Yes, I wasn't prepared for this sort of ongoing frequency of urination - none of the books say that this might happen! It is enough to make me think that if I ever get another dog it will probably be an adult (as sweet and cute as puppies are and as much as we all adore Jasper).

The cold floor thing is interesting, I didn't know that temperature could make a difference. Unfortunately for us, the frequency of Jasper's urination seems unaffected by what floor surface he is on and we even have underfloor heating in the kitchen.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Hi all. I was wondering if I could get some advice as Jasper has now thrown up three times.

The first time was last Sunday the 15th of March at 8pm. He was running around playing with his toys and then he just stopped and threw up. I saw quite a bit of sick come out but he kind of sucked it back into his mouth and swallowed it so that only a tiny amount got left on the floor. Here are pictures:


















We took him to the vet the next day (Mondy the 16th) and they said he seemed really bright and healthy so he had probably just been sick because he was hungry (his last meal was at 3:30pm and his next was at 8:30pm, he vomited at 8pm).

On Tuesday the 17th at 4am I noticed that he was clearly being sick in his crate. However, nothing came out of his mouth as he seemed to just throw up in his mouth and swallow.

We took him to the vers again on the 17th only to be told again that he seems fine. They said maybe he had eaten something which disagreed with him.

This morning at 5am again he seemed to throw up in his mouth and swallow it back down.

I will try and get an appointment at the vets again today but I worry that again they will be unhelpful.

I don't know why this is happening. He seems really healthy and well otherwise.

We feed him at 7am, 11am, 3:30pm and 8:30pm. The times he has been sick have been 8pm, 4am and 5am so always quite a while after he last ate. So maybe he is doing this because he is hungry? In that case, I worry that I may not be feeding him enough. But, I am working out how much to feed him using the calculation supplied by the vet (body weight in KG to the power 0.75 then multiplied by 70 then multiplied by 2.5), the vet said his body condition was really good and he is growing very well - more per week even than all the growth charts suggest he should be at this age. So I don't know.

I did think that maybe I should ignore the vet's calculation from now on and just let him eat as much as he wants at each meal. Or could that make him ill?

One other thing is that we have been trying to switch him over from hills i/d to a puppy food. We am have been doing it very slowly, substituting 1g of i/d with 1g of puppy food every two days (which actually we need to review as we do also keep increasing the amount of i/d to keep up with his growth and at this rate he will never be on puppy food only) so he is only just having 9g of puppy food at each meal now. I don't know if it could be this change in food causing him to throw up (his pops have also been a bit soft since he has been having the puppy food mixed in) but he is being sick quite along time after eating so I suspect not.

My biggest fear is that the issue could be a foreign body. As we all know, Jasper is really bad for eating things he shouldn't. I no longer walk him anywhere except on grass (no pavements or paths or anything like that) so I dont think he can have eaten any stones for a while... But I do know that he has eaten them in the past. The vet said that the problem isn't likely to be a foreign body as he isn't showing any other symptoms but perhaps I should press for an ultrasound or xray.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Can’t really tell from the pic but what were the white bits in the tissue?

I’d be inclined to stop the puppy food for a couple of days to rule that out.

I’d also put some food down at bed time so he can eat if he feels hungry as it’s a long time until breakfast. Being so tiny his meals are small so might not be lasting long enough.

Jack’s meals are half wet/half dry and he usually leaves the dry for later.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Lurcherlad said:


> Can't really tell from the pic but what were the white bits in the tissue?
> 
> I'd be inclined to stop the puppy food for a couple of days to rule that out.
> 
> ...


The white bits are chicken.

He usually goes to bed at 10-10:30. We were trying not to feed him after 8:30 because of toileting but that sounds like a good idea. Would you suggest leaving food out for him all night or just straight before bed? My other thought was that maybe I could feed him a meal half way through the night.

Jasper is on wet food only at the moment. Maybe we should be thinking of getting him onto some dry food too.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

As @Lurcherlad go back to the i/d for now plus it is a long time between meals especially at night.

Puppy food you are feeding may have different feeding guides and 1g of puppy food might not be the equivalent of 1g of i/d. You also might be going too fast. Usually its 5 days not 2 days.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

lullabydream said:


> As @Lurcherlad go back to the i/d for now plus it is a long time between meals especially at night.
> 
> Puppy food you are feeding may have different feeding guides and 1g of puppy food might not be the equivalent of 1g of i/d. You also might be going too fast. Usually its 5 days not 2 days.


Thank you. The puppy food actually seems to have a higher calorie content than the i/d so I thought substituting 1g of I/d for 1g of puppy would be ok.

Oh, I actually thought we were going too slowly if anything! So, you say that we should have been substituting 1g of i/d for 1g of puppy food at each meal every 5 days rather than every 2 days? The vet said to switch 1g of the i/d for 1g of the puppy at each meal every day until he was on the puppy only so I thought doing it every two days was being extra careful.

Will go back to the i/d only for now. Should we perhaps go back to feeding him 5 meals a day, or even all the way back to 6 meals (5 during the day and 1 in the middle of the night)?


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> Thank you. The puppy food actually seems to have a higher calorie content than the i/d so I thought substituting 1g of I/d for 1g of puppy would be ok.
> 
> Oh, I actually thought we were going too slowly if anything! So, you say that we should have been substituting 1g of i/d for 1g of puppy food at each meal every 5 days rather than every 2 days?
> 
> Will go back to the i/d only for now. Should we perhaps go back to feeding him 5 meals a day, or even all the way back to 6 meals (5 during the day and 1 in the middle of the night)?


What's the recommended amount of i/d per day, and what's the recommended amount of puppy food per day?

No extra meals but space them out slightly more


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

My Yorkie brings up yellow bile in the morning if she doesn’t eat enough the day before. I leave her kibble out as she has a couple before bed time and I give her a treat as well. Both of mine only eat if they need to so it doesn’t matter.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

lullabydream said:


> What's the recommended amount of i/d per day, and what's the recommended amount of puppy food per day?
> 
> No extra meals but space them out slightly more


The puppy food contains 129 calories per 100g and the feeding guide says for a 3kg (the lowest weight the feeding guide goes down to) 4 month old or more puppy to feed 3/4 of a can (277.5g). Jasper is 5 months and 1kg now so I guess that would be 92.5g a day for him, so 119 calories.

The i/d contains 102.5 calories per 100g and the feeding guide says for a 0.9kg 4 month old or more puppy to feed i/d 3/8 of a can (138.75g, so 142 calories).

But instead of looking at the feeding guides I have been working out what he needs based on the calories calculation that the vet gave me (which ends up with him eating more calories than if I went by the feeding guides). I weigh him every day and adjust as needed.

Yesterday Jasper got 110g of i/d and 36g of puppy food (plus about 10g boiled chicken and 2 puppy coachies as treats). In total he had about 175 calories so more than either the i/d or puppy food suggests that he needs.

I said that I have been substituting 1g of the i/d for 1g of the puppy at each meal every 2 days. Since he gets 4 meals a day this means that he gets 4g less of the i/d and 4g more of puppy food added every 2 days - although as he is still growing I have also been having often to increase the i/d or not decrease it despite increasing the puppy food.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Jobeth said:


> My Yorkie brings up yellow bile in the morning if she doesn't eat enough the day before. I leave her kibble out as she has a couple before bed time and I give her a treat as well. Both of mine only eat if they need to so it doesn't matter.


That is useful to know, thank you. I don't know if what Jasper is throwing up in the mornings is yellow bile or not because he is swallowing it but I don't think it was yellow bile the time he was sick in the evening (I guess there might have been some but since he swallowed most of it I only got a good look at the bit I photographed).

Hmm maybe he isn't eating enough then. He is eating more than the feeding guides say he needs at his age and size but perhaps I do still need to feed more.


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

My dogs will do morning bile pukes if they go too long with food, so they get a bedtime biscuit either a gravy bone or a markie around midnight when I go to bed, so maybe give Jasper a little something when he/you goes to bed and see if that helps.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

MontyMaude said:


> My dogs will do morning bile pukes if they go too long with food, so they get a bedtime biscuit either a gravy bone or a markie around midnight when I go to bed, so maybe give Jasper a little something when he/you goes to bed and see if that helps.


Thank you. I'll try feeding him some food at 10:30 just before we both go to bed and hopefully that improves things. Still not sure why the 8pm vomit happened though - he had gone 4.5 hours without food at that point and would have next eaten at 8:30 which didn't seem too long but maybe it was.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

I called the vets and they said don't bring him in but put him back on the i/d only for now and bring him in if he is sick again. So I guess I will try going back to i/d only and feeding him also at 10:30pm just before bed.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Sox used to get the hunger pukes to there was no real pattern to it. Pups do puke for many reasons.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2020)

Nova had the same happening very occasionally when she had a particularly busy day ... so now she gets a bed time snack on those days...


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

April Pearl said:


> Thank you. I'll try feeding him some food at 10:30 just before we both go to bed and hopefully that improves things. Still not sure why the 8pm vomit happened though - he had gone 4.5 hours without food at that point and would have next eaten at 8:30 which didn't seem too long but maybe it was.


Sometimes dogs just throw up, for no reason at all, mine do it occasionally, I don't worry about it unless they do it repeatedly or show other symptoms, he might have over excepted himself or something with the 8pm puke, I would just watch him and as long as he continues to poop as usual and isn't repeatedly being sick.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

I know the vet had to work out calculations for you for calories for the i/d being an adult food
For now I would look at guidelines rather than calories. Guidelines are often generous, and for puppy food to be described as puppy food as you have found its calorific and has the correct calcium phosphorus ratio for growing puppies no matter how small.

Harley was just under 1kg when she came home so not as tiny as Jasper but still tiny and to be honest she still isn't a dog that likes food served in a bowl if Jasper does that is great.

So ideally I would suggest when changing puppy food this
75 % of the original food and 25 % of the new food over 5 days.
50 % of the original food 50 %of the new food over 5 days
25 % of the original food 75% of the new food then go on to the new food.

So for the first 5 days each of Jasper's meal would be:-
26g i/d 6g new food
Next 5 days, 17g i/d 11g new food
Next 5 days 9g i/d 17g new food.

I will say you could be over feeding on the calorie advise which might be why the stomach issues are occurring too 

If the food doesn't have guidance for toy puppies, they are foods put there that will and are better to feed. They are few and far between but are put there. I know people don't rate royal canin but it's similar to hills currently and that has food for puppy toy breeds. Might be easier on Jasper's digestion and at the end of the day it's the food that suits your dog that is best.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2020)

Actually that’s a good point, I try and keep Nova calm after she’s eaten because sometimes she started running around with toys and regurgitated her food a couple of times.. so now I make sure she doesn’t go all Zoomies after a meal.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Sorry for taking so long to respond, things are a bit crazy for obvious reasons right now.

@lullabydream everything that you say sounds very reasonable and I have been trying to follow it: going back to the i/d (with a view to switching him onto a toy breed puppy food in the way you describe later - will have to find a good one first though!).

I do agree that I am probably technically over feeding but since he seems to be being sick from hunger (only vomiting a long time after eating and his stomach grumbles a lot in the morning) I've been reluctant to considerably reduce his intake.

According to the i/d feeding guide a 1kg (he is 1030g) 4-9 month old puppy needs about 140g a day and he is now having 160g split as follows:

7am: 35g i/d
11am: 35g i/d
3:30pm: 35g i/d
8:30pm: 35g i/d
10:30pm: 20g i/d

He also gets 5-10g boiled chicken every day and 2 puppy coachies.

Despite adding in the 10:30 small meal he has been throwing up every morning at 4 or 5am, once at 2am. I believe this is from hunger as his stomach grumbles.

I am not sure what to do. Perhaps I could increase the 10:30 meal size? Or I could feed him at, say, 2am in addition?

Alternatively, perhaps the feeding guidelines for the i/d are just too little for him? It says that a 1kg puppy of less than 4 months needs 185g of food per day so although he is 5 months old and the guideline for a 1kg 4-9 month old is 140g, maybe I could go up from 160g to 185g?

Or perhaps I should feed him in a time limited rather than portion controlled fashion, leaving out a lot of food for, say, 20 minutes 4 times a day and letting him eat as much as he wants during that time?


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2020)

Nova was on the i/d food for a sensitive tummy for a few days and I had the same issue with her not getting full on it or waking me up in the middle of the night - not being able to settle and her tummy rumbling and a couple of times she had hunger pukes as well. Only thing that helped here was a toast before bed time or something that would fill her tummy overnight. Not suggesting you do exactly what I did, just sharing my experience.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Kakite said:


> Nova was on the i/d food for a sensitive tummy for a few days and I had the same issue with her not getting full on it or waking me up in the middle of the night - not being able to settle and her tummy rumbling and a couple of times she had hunger pukes as well. Only thing that helped here was a toast before bed time or something that would fill her tummy overnight. Not suggesting you do exactly what I did, just sharing my experience.


Oh that is so interesting, I hadn't considered that the i/d itself might be the problem... Hmm well I had better start trying to switch him over onto a puppy food then. In the meantime I'm not sure what I can feed him before bed that will fill him up all night since I don't want to feed him anything that might upset his stomach.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2020)

April Pearl said:


> Oh that is so interesting, I hadn't considered that the i/d itself might be the problem... Hmm well I had better start trying to switch him over onto a puppy food then. In the meantime I'm not sure what I can feed him before bed that will fill him up all night since I don't want to feed him anything that might upset his stomach.


we never have this issue when she's on her normal kibble so it's just a guess. I know her normal kibble is a lot more calorie dense than the I/d food. Hope you'll find something that works for you


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Kakite said:


> we never have this issue when she's on her normal kibble so it's just a guess. I know her normal kibble is a lot more calorie dense than the I/d food. Hope you'll find something that works for you


Thank you!


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Does anyone have any suggestions for a good quality puppy food which might be suitable for Jasper, given that he has a sensitive stomach (which is why he is on i/d)?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

We did buy some royal canin mini puppy in gravy (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ro...etail-products/small-puppy-pouch-dog-food/amp). Would that be suitable?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Alternatively, Jasper's breeder had started feeding him butternut box (https://butternutbox.com). It isn't a puppy food but it claims to be suitable for puppies and good for sensitive stomachs. Only thing is that the vet thought it wouldn't be food for puppies and there is no way of knowing if it contains all the amnio acids such as taurine that he needs since these aren't listed and theres no regulation on these sorts of foods.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

It's just that yesterday I tried substituting a quarter of the i/d with a quarter of the hills puppy that we tried before (possibly overoptimistically) and by the evening he had produced almost liquid diarrhoea  so I feel that perhaps we should not pursue that particular food any further?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Jasper was clearly so hungry this morning that he felt nauseous. His stomach was grumbling very loudly and he would not eat his breakfast. I eventually managed to get him to eat by mixing up some of the liquid convalescence diet which he would be persuaded to eat. After he had eaten some of this he seemed to feel better and ate his i/d.

I am not sure what to do. This can't go on. Next time I may not be able to persuade him to eat. I feel that it is probably the i/d not filling him up which is the problem so I need to switch him onto another food.

The puppy food I have been trying to get him on appears to disagree with him but maybe the Royal Canin that I linked earlier would work better?

Even so, I can't switch his food over all at once so what can I do in the meantime to stop him from becoming so terribly hungry overnight?

I'm not sure that any amount of i/d fed at 10:30pm will last him until 7am so maybe I should be feeding him at 2am... But then there is the problem of him needing to poo in the middle of the night to contend with (though this is of course not my primary concern!)


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Could you add some raw mince to his diet? Maybe last thing at night to see him through? 

People sometimes change to raw for tum troubles so it might not upset him.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Lurcherlad said:


> Could you add some raw mince to his diet? Maybe last thing at night to see him through?
> 
> People sometimes change to raw for tum troubles so it might not upset him.


I know that a lot of people feed raw and that it is very good for them and that this is entirely irrational of me but I would be far too afraid of giving him food poisoning to raw feed Jasper. Sorry, I know that is stupid of me!


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Just have a bit if a question re feeding Jasper. I am going to try and switch him onto the Royal Canin mini puppy.

He is currently on the hills i/d and the feeding guide for that is by current weight. So it says that a 0.9kg puppy over 4 months old needs 138g of i/d per day (about 143 calories). Since Jasper is 1kg and 5 months old this is around what it would suggest he needs.

But the royal canin mini puppy feeding guide is by age and estimated adult weight. The lowest estimated adult weight it has is 2kg and it says that a 4-6 month old puppy who will be 2kg as an adult needs 2 and 3/4 packs (222 calories) a day.

Now, I believe that Jasper will be 2kg or more as an adult as his mother was 2kg (father was 1.4kg) an he is growing very quickly. BUT a puppy who was charting at 2kg fully grown would be 1.6kg at Jasper's age... So quite a lot bigger than Jasper who is 1kg currently. This makes me wonder if Jasper should be eating 2 and 3/4 packs or if I should be feeding him around the same number of calories as the i/d says he needs (although as I have said he is getting more than this already)


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> I know that a lot of people feed raw and that it is very good for them and that this is entirely irrational of me but I would be far too afraid of giving him food poisoning to raw feed Jasper. Sorry, I know that is stupid of me!


I get it 

Maybe cook some instead and add that to his meal?


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## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

The guidelines are on the generous side on dog food and are just for guidance. My dog has only ever eaten half of the suggested amount and he has gained weight steadily. Dan is currently weighing in at 12kg and he is chunky! He's the predicted weight at the moment. He has 2 x 150g trays and biscuits and sometimes kibble (guidelines are up to 4 and a half trays - impossible!) With training treats and night time biccies. He's a very fussy eater too and has been difficult to settle on one food for long. I can't compare him to Jasper but can feel your pain trying to get the food right for him. Puppy food I found particularly difficult as there's not much choice, but butchers puppy and lily's kitchen were a couple he liked for a while, although he wouldn't touch the beef flavour! Local RSPCA benefited from those.

As Jasper is so small the quantity for him would be tiny I would think, compared to Dan, who is classed as a small dog. For the evening I give Dan a puppy biscuit or two before bed, it seems to help him to settle. I've also bought a cookery book and occasionally cook him up some liver cake for treats and he likes fresh lambs heart freshly cooked too.
If I'm cooking dinner for us I'll do him a plate too with no salt or gravy (I make him special dog gravy from granules). Sometimes he eats it sometimes he doesn't but it's worth a try. Particular as he is, he will never refuse fresh salmon and green beans!


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Lurcherlad said:


> I get it
> 
> Maybe cook some instead and add that to his meal?


I'd feel better about doing that! This is mince beef, right? Alternatively I could give him some extra cooked chicken as I know that doesn't upset his stomach - would that be as good?



DanWalkersmum said:


> The guidelines are on the generous side on dog food and are just for guidance. My dog has only ever eaten half of the suggested amount and he has gained weight steadily. Dan is currently weighing in at 12kg and he is chunky! He's the predicted weight at the moment. He has 2 x 150g trays and biscuits and sometimes kibble (guidelines are up to 4 and a half trays - impossible!) With training treats and night time biccies. He's a very fussy eater too and has been difficult to settle on one food for long. I can't compare him to Jasper but can feel your pain trying to get the food right for him. Puppy food I found particularly difficult as there's not much choice, but butchers puppy and lily's kitchen were a couple he liked for a while, although he wouldn't touch the beef flavour! Local RSPCA benefited from those.
> 
> As Jasper is so small the quantity for him would be tiny I would think, compared to Dan, who is classed as a small dog. For the evening I give Dan a puppy biscuit or two before bed, it seems to help him to settle. I've also bought a cookery book and occasionally cook him up some liver cake for treats and he likes fresh lambs heart freshly cooked too.
> If I'm cooking dinner for us I'll do him a plate too with no salt or gravy (I make him special dog gravy from granules). Sometimes he eats it sometimes he doesn't but it's worth a try. Particular as he is, he will never refuse fresh salmon and green beans!


Thank you. It is just so difficult to know what is right for him because the feeding guidelines based on current puppy weight and age say he needs to eat a different amount from the feeding guidelines based on estimated adult size and current age. It is bewildering and difficult to know which to use!

I can definitely believe that the feeding guidelines are over generous as that is certainly the case with cat food, we have found. Even so given that Jasper does seem so hungry overnight it makes me feel that maybe he needs more and I'm more wary of undefeeding... Though of course I also don't want him to get sick through over feeding either!

Jasper isn't fussy and will eat anything (although this morning he seemed to feel a bit nauseous as I think he was very hungry and that made him fussy). The problem is more that he seems to have a sensitive stomach and gets diarrhoea quite easily. Even on the i/d his poos are usually a bit too soft (tmi I know!)

I will have a look into the butcher's and the lily's kitchen, thank you so much for the recommendation!

Might need to get Jasper some puppy biscuits, then. Been meaning to try Jasper on liver cake as I have heard dogs love it. Will have to offer him salmon at some point, too!


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## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

a word of caution on the liver cake - small amounts only! Small dogs need high quality food  Also watch that you don't give too much of the salmon at once, the skin is very fatty and can cause tummy problems.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

DanWalkersmum said:


> a word of caution on the liver cake - small amounts only! Small dogs need high quality food  Also watch that you don't give too much of the salmon at once, the skin is very fatty and can cause tummy problems.


Thank you, I will be careful with it!

Had a look online and the lily's kitchen wet puppy food looks really good quality so I think I will try him on that. I had been going to give him the royal canin mini puppy in gravy as that is designed for small dogs but looking at the ingredients it looks less good... I assume that it is better to feed Jasper a higher quality food than one branded specifically for small dogs?


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## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

April Pearl said:


> Thank you, I will be careful with it!
> 
> Had a look online and the lily's kitchen wet puppy food looks really good quality so I think I will try him on that. I had been going to give him the royal canin mini puppy in gravy as that is designed for small dogs but looking at the ingredients it looks less good... I assume that it is better to feed Jasper a higher quality food than one branded specifically for small dogs?


I don't really know the answer to that but have seen that royal canin is not one of the better foods.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

DanWalkersmum said:


> I don't really know the answer to that but have seen that royal canin is not one of the better foods.


I have heard that too. I'll try to get him on lily's kitchen. Hopefully I can get some soon, difficult to buy things nowadays!


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## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

worth a try?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

DanWalkersmum said:


> worth a try?


Our local pet shop is open and had it in stock so I've been able to buy him some just now!


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2020)

Keep us posted. Tummy troubles can be unnerving. Nova's tummy has just calmed down after over a good month of trouble.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Does anyone think good old Chappie Original would be any good? It seems to have amazing powers and no one really knows quite why. It's not the best food, smells a bit but often helps dodgy tums. My irish setter couldn't eat any food containing liver or kidney, it was just too rich for him. He wasn't really good on most foods, but chappie was fine for him and he had it most of his life. There wasn't the choice of foods in those days, tins and mixer biscuit.


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## amplecrumlin (Oct 16, 2017)

Yes, I'd forgotten about Chappie! It looks and smells unappetising and people are often a bit horrified by it - until they try it and find that it agrees with their dog when nothing else does. It's also pretty cheap, so always worth a try. There's very little to lose, surely?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Siskin said:


> Does anyone think good old Chappie Original would be any good? It seems to have amazing powers and no one really knows quite why. It's not the best food, smells a bit but often helps dodgy tums. My irish setter couldn't eat any food containing liver or kidney, it was just too rich for him. He wasn't really good on most foods, but chappie was fine for him and he had it most of his life. There wasn't the choice of foods in those days, tins and mixer biscuit.


Hi, thank you do much for the suggestion. I hadn't heard of Chappie. We are currently trying to get him onto Lily's Kitchen which I hoped would not upset his stomach as it is 67% chicken and with no fillers but he has had some watery diarrhoea so it's possible we may have to explore other avenues. If Lily's Kitchen doesn't work out perhaps Chappie will.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

Mine have Lily’s kitchen and they do a ‘recovery recipe’ which might be useful. I tried Chappie for mine when they had an upset stomach and neither of them would touch it.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

For the past few days 1/4 of Jasper's food has been Lily's Kitchen. He has had some watery diarrhoea but mostly it has just been very very soft and not properly formed. I suppose this is normal for a food change and should clear up though?

For the past two nights I have been giving him an extra full meal at 10:30 (in addition to a full meal at 8:30pm) instead of just half a meal to try and see him through the night.

Yesterday morning he was fine - no vomiting or stomach grumbles and he ate his breakfast with no problems.

This morning there was also no stomach grumbles or vomiting but he was very difficult about eating breakfast (26g i/d with 10g lily'skitchen). He only ate about two thirds of this and to get him to eat that much I had to resort to hand feeding. He also would not eat i/d on its own. But he would eat convalescence so he had about 25g of that. He also was prepared to eat some Lily's kitchen its own and would eat chicken.

So, for some reason he is no longer eating the i/d. This isn't great because even having 1/4 of his food as lily's kitchen is so far giving him diarrhoea. Not sure what to do if he continues to refuse the i/d. Just feed him lily's kitchen? Or maybe feed him on mostly chicken mixed with some lily's kitchen? Not sure how much chicken would be enough though.

I'm also worried by the fact that he is refusing i/d at all since it isn't like him to be fussy, he usually eats everything.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Jobeth said:


> Mine have Lily's kitchen and they do a 'recovery recipe' which might be useful. I tried Chappie for mine when they had an upset stomach and neither of them would touch it.


Thank you, managed to buy some of the Lily's kitchen recovery recipe from the local pet shop this morning. I wonder if I should try him on this instead. Would it be ok for puppies, it says it's for adult dogs on it.


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## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

April Pearl said:


> For the past few days 1/4 of Jasper's food has been Lily's Kitchen. He has had some watery diarrhoea but mostly it has just been very very soft and not properly formed. I suppose this is normal for a food change and should clear up though?
> 
> For the past two nights I have been giving him an extra full meal at 10:30 (in addition to a full meal at 8:30pm) instead of just half a meal to try and see him through the night.
> 
> ...


Maybe he has got the taste for the new food. Also if you gave him a full meal at 10.30 maybe he wasn't ready for breakfast so try him a little later in the morning? As lily's kitchen is probably more calorific than he's used to.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> For the past few days 1/4 of Jasper's food has been Lily's Kitchen. He has had some watery diarrhoea but mostly it has just been very very soft and not properly formed. I suppose this is normal for a food change and should clear up though?
> 
> For the past two nights I have been giving him an extra full meal at 10:30 (in addition to a full meal at 8:30pm) instead of just half a meal to try and see him through the night.
> 
> ...


Hate to throw in another thing to consider, but too much cooked chicken can make Jack very loose.

I would maybe try adding a little of another new protein (white fish?) to dilute the amount of chicken he's eating.


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## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

Lurcherlad said:


> Hate to throw in another thing to consider, but too much cooked chicken can make Jack very loose.
> 
> I would maybe try adding a little of another new protein (white fish?) to dilute the amount of chicken he's eating.


Good point, I've noticed Dan is a bit loose when he's had a large amount of chicken.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

April Pearl said:


> Thank you, managed to buy some of the Lily's kitchen recovery recipe from the local pet shop this morning. I wonder if I should try him on this instead. Would it be ok for puppies, it says it's for adult dogs on it.


I wouldn't like to say but if anyone wants to offer advice I've posted what is contains. I do know that you need to be careful about changing their diet. I made that mistake with my oldest dog when he was a puppy and he had terrible diarrhoea as a result.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

I don't think that he has been having too much chicken as he only gets 5-10g per day and he hasn't been eating more chicken recently. The liquid diarrhoea coincides exactly with me starting to switch his food over.

I feel so guilty because I think that I tried to switch him over too quickly. Substituting 25% of the i/d for lily's kitchen was clearly too much all at once for him. His diarrhoea this morning has been awful, liquid and very frequent - 5 times already today.

He is still refusing to eat i/d which is really what he needs to be eating right now.

I think the food switch gave him diarrhoea and he feels ill because of the diarrhoea and since he feels ill he doesn't want to eat.

For his 11am meal I again offered him i/d which he refused. Then offered him some of the lily's kitchen recovery recipe which he only ate about 18g of (but then I also worry this may upset his stomach further).

In the end I fed him chicken for his 11am meal since that is the only thing he will eat. He has eaten all the cooked chicken we had in the fridge but that was only 21g so I need to get more out of the freezer and cool some more up.

I'm so scared he will stop eating altogether. He doesn't seem right, wouldn't walk on his walk this morning either, just lay down.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

You can ring your vet for advice if you’re unsure.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

Repeated


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Jobeth said:


> You can ring your vet for advice if you're unsure.


Have rung them three times today, most recently about 10 minutes ago because he is now refusing to eat anything except the liquid convalescence diet, even chicken. I know that isn't good for the diarrhoea but I need him to eat.

The vets weren't very helpful and just said to call again at 4pm if he is still not eating.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Jasper stopped eating entirely yesterday and spent last night at the emergency vets. He still is not eating this morning, apparently.

I feel horrible. This is my fault for trying to switch over his food too fast. I shouldn't have substituted 25% of the i/d for puppy food all at once, it was clearly too much for him. I should have substituted 1g per day as I originally planned but everything I saw online said it was ok to substitute 25%. Now he is ill and I suppose might die and I will never forgive myself.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

It might be nothing to do with the food.

Very scary obviously, but try not to panic.

Fingers and paws crossed they get to the bottom if it and he’s home soon and on the mend.

Take care x


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

April Pearl said:


> Jasper stopped eating entirely yesterday and spent last night at the emergency vets. He still is not eating this morning, apparently.
> 
> I feel horrible. This is my fault for trying to switch over his food too fast. I shouldn't have substituted 25% of the i/d for puppy food all at once, it was clearly too much for him. I should have substituted 1g per day as I originally planned but everything I saw online said it was ok to substitute 25%. Now he is ill and I suppose might die and I will never forgive myself.


I doubt you are to blame for changing the food a hungry dog will eat anything have they said what they think it might be ?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Lurcherlad said:


> It might be nothing to do with the food.
> 
> Very scary obviously, but try not to panic.
> 
> ...


Thank you. Trying to stay calm but it's so worrying and coincides exactly with me trying to switch foods.

I thought changing 25% of the food was meant to be safe but maybe not in his case? I wish I hadn't tried.

The current situation also makes getting veterinary attention so difficult right now anyway.


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## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

Try not to panic, fingers crossed for you and Jasper that he starts eating very soon. I suppose him being so small means he can't go too long without eating without being poorly.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

It definitely sounds like something else is going on. 

Honestly if he can't handle a gentle change over of foods, there maybe more going on. Dogs are scavengers by nature, most can handle switch overs easily to be honest. You might see people come here and say hey my dog is sensitive but that's probably not the norm. As they stumbled on this site, asked a few questions and stuck around. 

He was such a tiny puppy that there could have been more going on internally than you know.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> I doubt you are to blame for changing the food a hungry dog will eat anything have they said what they think it might be ?


My mum just got off the phone with them. Apparently they did a blood test and he has an infection and is on antibiotics. Don't know what the infection could be.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

April Pearl said:


> My mum just got off the phone with them. Apparently they did a blood test and he has an infection and is on antibiotics. Don't know what the infection could be.


Not your fault at all then. Loki picked up a tummy bug a couple of months ago it was quite nasty and although he only had a few bouts of sickness didn't eat for days. He was on antibiotics. I suppose being so tiny he will get more poorly.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

DanWalkersmum said:


> Try not to panic, fingers crossed for you and Jasper that he starts eating very soon. I suppose him being so small means he can't go too long without eating without being poorly.


Thank you. I worry too about him being small. His blood sugar was fine when they admitted him yesterday but I worry about him going hypoglycaemic again.



lullabydream said:


> It definitely sounds like something else is going on.
> 
> Honestly if he can't handle a gentle change over of foods, there maybe more going on. Dogs are scavengers by nature, most can handle switch overs easily to be honest. You might see people come here and say hey my dog is sensitive but that's probably not the norm. As they stumbled on this site, asked a few questions and stuck around.
> 
> He was such a tiny puppy that there could have been more going on internally than you know.


My mum just spoke with them and he apparently has an infection so is on antibiotics. I so hope that that sorts it. You're right there could be something more going on which caused him to have such a sensitive stomach in the first place but I still feel awful for trying to switch him over like that since I do feel like the food change at least contributed to this, I wish I'd gone slower but I thought it'd be ok.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> Not your fault at all then. Loki picked up a tummy bug a couple of months ago it was quite nasty and although he only had a few bouts of sickness didn't eat for days. He was on antibiotics. I suppose being so tiny he will get more poorly.


Still feel like the food change may have contributed. I don't know, I really hope he gets over this. It's good to know that Loki was fine after not eating for a few days. Apparently Jasper has only eaten very small amounts this morning but his blood sugar is still fine which is some relief.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Oh dear, poor you and Jasper ! Please don't blame yourself , I know how frustratinng it is.
My old dog Tango had a very irritable bowel, it was hard to know what to give her but she did seem to be highly sensitive to chicken. I found that when she had diarrhoea cooked white fish and plain mashed potato did the trick. 
Have you discussed any sort of pre-biotic for Jasper with the vet, such as Prokolin ?


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

It's a coincidence nothing more or less

Try not to over think things.

As @Boxer123 there has been a horrible bug sweeping the whole country. Jasper being a curious puppy, low to the ground could easily have picked it up, especially as older and more robust dogs have.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

lullabydream said:


> It's a coincidence nothing more or less
> 
> Try not to over think things.
> 
> As @Boxer123 there has been a horrible bug sweeping the whole country. Jasper being a curious puppy, low to the ground could easily have picked it up, especially as older and more robust dogs have.


Oh my God I thought dogs couldn't get it. You don't think he could have covid?

ETA: Sorry, just realised you are probably talking about the same bug Boxer mentioned. That was stupid of me, I am very tired. I didn't know there was a dog bug going round right now.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

April Pearl said:


> Oh my God I thought dogs couldn't get it. You don't think he could have covid?


I think she means there has been a doggy tummy bug going around lots of dogs have been poorly with it.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

SusieRainbow said:


> Oh dear, poor you and Jasper ! Please don't blame yourself , I know how frustratinng it is.
> My old dog Tango had a very irritable bowel, it was hard to know what to give her but she did seem to be highly sensitive to chicken. I found that when she had diarrhoea cooked white fish and plain mashed potato did the trick.
> Have you discussed any sort of pre-biotic for Jasper with the vet, such as Prokolin ?


Thank you. We didn't try him on white fish. I suppose we should have. The vets are trying to feed him i/d. We tried giving him some prokolin at home but by that time he wasn't eating anything so wouldn't take the food it was mixed into. Forgot to ask if the emergency vets are getting prokolin into him, will need to ask when they next call.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> I think she means there has been a doggy tummy bug going around lots of dogs have been poorly with it.


I realised that just after posting it. Stupid thing for me to say, it's just that right now whenever people mention a bug going round the country my mind instantly jumps to covid! Had no idea there was a dog tummy bug going round right now.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Well they said that Jasper was eating and the diarrhoea had stopped so we picked him up this morning.

The diarrhoea does definitely seem to have stopped since he has had a normal poo since being at home and previously he was having frequent liquid diarrhoea.

The eating is not so good. He HAS eaten but only a very small amount of i/d so I suppose they were right to say that he is eating but personally I don't think it is enough. Also it isn't at all like him not to finish all the food he is offered.

In general he still is not acting himself. He just seems a bit... out of it.

Not sure what to do on the food front. If he won't eat enough i/d, should I be trying other things like boiled chicken? I don't want to upset his stomach again but I do also worry about him not getting enough food given his history of hypoglycemia.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

April Pearl said:


> Well they said that Jasper was eating and the diarrhoea had stopped so we picked him up this morning.
> 
> The diarrhoea does definitely seem to have stopped since he has had a normal poo since being at home and previously he was having frequent liquid diarrhoea.
> 
> ...


I always do boiled chicken or turkey when mine are poorly what did the vet say ?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> I always do boiled chicken or turkey when mine are poorly what did the vet say ?


They just said to keep feeding i/d. Didn't ask about what to do if he wouldn't eat it as they had said he was eating it with them and I suppose he did eat some with us but I don't think he is having enough of it. However he has been keen to eat chicken as toilet training treats.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

You could boil up some chicken and then pour some of the boiled water onto his kibble.
I did this to get Thai interested in his kibble again after a nasty bout of diarrhea. If you pour it over when it is hot and then let it cool enough to eat the smell might get his nose working


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

April Pearl said:


> They just said to keep feeding i/d. Didn't ask about what to do if he wouldn't eat it as they had said he was eating it with them and I suppose he did eat some with us but I don't think he is having enough of it. However he has been keen to eat chicken as toilet training treats.


Could you shred some chicken into the normal food ?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Well since he has been back he has eaten 83g of i/d overall. He was also fed at least once at the vets this morning but I don't know how much they gave him.

He usually gets 175g of i/d in total plus treats.

He is due one more meal today at 10:30pm (I have been trying to feed him just before bed) but I don't expect he will eat because he last ate at 8:15 which usually wouldn't make him less inclined to eat but right now he is already not too keen on eating.

He has also had 15g of boiled chicken. He would eat more but I have been worried to give him full meals of chicken in case too much of it upsets his stomach again as he is only used to having it as a treat. Also the vets did say to feed him the i/d and I didn't want to put him off that.

So I guess I am wondering whether it sounds as though he has eaten an alright amount or if I should be trying to make up the lost calories by giving him more chicken to compensate? For example, should I give him a full meal of chicken at 10:30 if he won't eat the i/d?



StormyThai said:


> You could boil up some chicken and then pour some of the boiled water onto his kibble.
> I did this to get Thai interested in his kibble again after a nasty bout of diarrhea. If you pour it over when it is hot and then let it cool enough to eat the smell might get his nose working


That is a really good idea. Unfortunately we don't have any raw chicken to cook up right now but we do have some of the water left over from when I boiled up some chicken on Saturday. I tried mixing that into his i/d but it didn't tempt him. Maybe I should have tried heating the water up first though.



Boxer123 said:


> Could you shred some chicken into the normal food ?


That's a good idea too, I'll give it a go!


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

He really is not keen on eating the i/d. Last night he wouldn't touch his evening meal of i/d so I gave him 27g of chicken. This morning he only ate 20g of i/d (possibly less as it got spread around a lot). Microwaving it and mixing it with chicken did not work.

Because of all that, this morning I ended up giving him 17g of chicken which he ate. I think he would eat more chicken but I don't know if it would be good to feed him almost exclusively on chicken.

Not really sure what I should do when he fails to eat enough i/d in a meal. Don't offer him anything else? Or try to make up the lost calories with chicken?

I am also very worried that he still is not eating normally.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

And I am worried because he now weighs 14g LESS than he did last Friday so he has lost 14 over the past 4 days whereas he usually gains 10-20g per day so should have GAINED at least 40g.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I would speak to your vet, tell them your worries and then follow their advice.
I don't worry when Thai refuses a meal or two, but he is much bigger so not really an issue...Jasper isn't a well pup so it would be best to follow the vets advice IMO


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

StormyThai said:


> I would speak to your vet, tell them your worries and then follow their advice.
> I don't worry when Thai refuses a meal or two, but he is much bigger so not really an issue...Jasper isn't a well pup so it would be best to follow the vets advice IMO


Thank you. I will try calling when their lines open at 8:30am. I am obviously worried that he could get hypoglycemic from not eating but also the very fact that he is refusing meals is concerning and shows that he is not well as usually he NEVER refuses any food. Even on Friday night he had a full meal at 8:30 then a full meal at 10:30 with treats in between and wolfed down both.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

We did manage to get a can of the Royal Canin Gastro Intestinal wet food. I wonder if that might be a good substitute for i/d if he will eat it? Haven't tried him on it yet.


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## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

I really don't think it's a good idea to be switching foods just now until he gets over his tummy upset. He will be picking up on your anxiety about not eating too. If he's eating chicken maybe try putting a bit of the food into the chicken to disguise it and hand feeding him bits until he gets his appetite back, maybe making him work for it to make it interesting? Does he eat kibble? If so a game of chase the kibble gets Dan eating sometimes. I'd also give him a little bit, but often (if that makes sense) until his tum gets back to normal, forget about regular, full meals for a while, just get him eating. 
But you really should consult the professionals if you are not getting anywhere with getting him to eat if all else fails and you are worried.


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## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

Just a thought for you - we just had the months trial at tails. I wondered if that might be suitable for Jasper - cost me a tenner for the first month and so far seems to be good, I know they do puppy food too may be worth a try.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

DanWalkersmum said:


> I really don't think it's a good idea to be switching foods just now until he gets over his tummy upset. He will be picking up on your anxiety about not eating too. If he's eating chicken maybe try putting a bit of the food into the chicken to disguise it and hand feeding him bits until he gets his appetite back, maybe making him work for it to make it interesting? Does he eat kibble? If so a game of chase the kibble gets Dan eating sometimes. I'd also give him a little bit, but often (if that makes sense) until his tum gets back to normal, forget about regular, full meals for a while, just get him eating.
> But you really should consult the professionals if you are not getting anywhere with getting him to eat if all else fails and you are worried.


Thank you. You are probably right about changing foods being a bad idea... It would be a last resort. He is on the wet i/d but I did wonder if maybe the dry i/d might tempt him more so may try that.

I have tried and tried and tried but nothing seems to persuade him to eat more than a very small amount of i/d and although he will eat chicken it isn't much that he will take - maybe 20g every 4 hours or so.

It seems impossible to even get a phone consultation with the regular vets who seem not to be taking this seriously but the emergency vets did say they would call back when we called this morning to ask what to do about the not eating. I personally feel that more is going on here besides an infection. He just isn't himself either. I am very worried.



DanWalkersmum said:


> Just a thought for you - we just had the months trial at tails. I wondered if that might be suitable for Jasper - cost me a tenner for the first month and so far seems to be good, I know they do puppy food too may be worth a try.


Thank you. I am worried about substantially changing Jasper's food at the moment but will have a look into it.


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## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

April Pearl said:


> Thank you. You are probably right about changing foods being a bad idea... It would be a last resort. He is on the wet i/d but I did wonder if maybe the dry i/d might tempt him more so may try that.
> 
> I have tried and tried and tried but nothing seems to persuade him to eat more than a very small amount of i/d and although he will eat chicken it isn't much that he will take - maybe 20g every 4 hours or so.
> 
> ...


I hope he starts to improve soon.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

DanWalkersmum said:


> I hope he starts to improve soon.


Thank you.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

He would not eat the wet i/d this afternoon but I did get him to eat 13g of the dry i/d (crushed with a pestle and mortar as he could not manage the large pieces).

I worry because he hasn't had any dry food before and I don't want him to get diarrhoea again but since he would not eat the wet stuff it seemed like the next best thing. And it is obviously more calorie dense so he got enough energy in.

But he still just isn't right. I don't think he is well at all


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

April Pearl said:


> He would not eat the wet i/d this afternoon but I did get him to eat 13g of the dry i/d (crushed with a pestle and mortar as he could not manage the large pieces).
> 
> I worry because he hasn't had any dry food before and I don't want him to get diarrhoea again but since he would not eat the wet stuff it seemed like the next best thing. And it is obviously more calorie dense so he got enough energy in.
> 
> But he still just isn't right. I don't think he is well at all


Poor Jasper, have u tried the vet again ? Is he still on antibiotics?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

If he’s eating chicken I’d give him more, maybe with cooked plain rice to protect him from a hypo.

Leave some of the i/d down overnight so he can eat it if he’s hungry in the night.

He might feel a bit anxious around food given all the upset and possibly he’s picking up on your (understandable) anxiety. Alone at night he might just eat something.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> Poor Jasper, have u tried the vet again ? Is he still on antibiotics?


He is still on antibiotics. He is having half a pill twice a day and there are I think 4 pills left. Not sure how we will get the second half into him for today though as before we crushed it and mixed it in 1g of i/d but now he won't touch the wet i/d. Maybe he would take it with chicken or something.

Have called our regular vets so many times today but can't even get through to a vet. The receptionist just talks to a vet then just gets back to us and basically just says to keep trying to feed him which is obvious. I get the feeling that they are going to wait until he is an emergency to actually do anything... By which time it will most likely be too late.

The emergency vets are meant to be calling back but have not done so yet. Will try calling again at 5.



Lurcherlad said:


> If he's eating chicken I'd give him more, maybe with cooked plain rice to protect him from a hypo.
> 
> Leave some of the i/d down overnight so he can eat it if he's hungry in the night.
> 
> He might feel a bit anxious around food given all the upset and possibly he's picking up on your (understandable) anxiety. Alone at night he might just eat something.


Do you think it is better to give him cooked chicken when he won't eat or the dry i/d which he did eat some of last meal? The dry i/d is clearly more calorie dense which I thought was good but I don't know if it could upset his stomach?

Leaving food down overnight sounds good. I would be concerned about leaving out the wet i/d in case it spoils, would you leave out the dry i/d instead?


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

April Pearl said:


> He is still on antibiotics. He is having half a pill twice a day and there are I think 4 pills left. Not sure how we will get the second half into him for today though as before we crushed it and mixed it in 1g of i/d but now he won't touch the wet i/d. Maybe he would take it with chicken or something.
> 
> Have called our regular vets so many times today but can't even get through to a vet. The receptionist just talks to a vet then just gets back to us and basically just says to keep trying to feed him which is obvious. I get the feeling that they are going to wait until he is an emergency to actually do anything... By which time it will most likely be too late.
> 
> ...


If it was mine I would give the chicken.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Give him whatever he’ll eat tbh 

Try squishing the pill into a grated cheese ball. Feed one ball without pill then if he is keen give the one with the pill.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Also if he's been ill he may just not be keen on food that he's associated with feeling ill.
I'd be feeding him whatever he will eat, chicken, fish, rice, scrambled eggs are good too. Get some food in and him feeling full and better. If he's really not eating after another day I'd be on at the vet to have him in again. He's too small and he's already got a history of illness so they need to take it seriously.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Thanks everyone. We did end up bringing him in for a check over yesterday and they could not find anything obviously very badly wrong.

His white blood cell count is still elevated so maybe the antibiotics are not solving the infection (if there is an infection - they thought there was previously because of the high white blood cell count) and his urea was high but they said that could be because he had eaten 5 hours previously so to get it rechecked in the morning one time. Also they think he could have a bit of mild kennel cough as he coughs when his throat is pressed (He does cough quite a bit at home just generally and I have mentioned it to vets before and been dismissed) but apparently that should resolve on its own.

He still is not eating the wet i/d but he is eating enough dry i/d which the vet yesterday said should be fine to keep him on. He is also eating chicken so that is good. And the diarrhoea has not returned so hopefully that is all gone.

It's just weird that he is acting so out of character. On Friday he was guzzling down the wet i/d and looking for more. On Saturday morning, he just began refusing it. Obviously he also had bad diarrhoea at that time which I assumed accounted for him not wanting to eat, but now the diarrhoea has resolved and he still doesn't want the wet i/d. He has never been fussy before (except when we first got him and he was ill). Also in the past he would always eat everything you offered him whereas now he leaves things... The change happened literally over night. He does not get excited about his food any more - before he would jump up and down and bark and bark when he noticed it being prepared. He also has stopped barking as much in general - for example, he would usually bark at me while I washed my hands which he does not do now and he would bark at the cat. And he does not eat quickly like he used to. Also he is not as bouncy as usual and just lies down on the ground a lot. It is just lots of little things... Overall he is acting out of character and I don't know why.

ETA: With the coughing, it mostly happens when he is excited or playing or eating and now the vet has said it happens when his throat is pressed... Turns out that dogs with a collapsing trachea cough under just these circumstances. He has been coughing like this for weeks, maybe even months, so could the problem perhaps be collapsing trachea? Not sure this would stop him eating though. The vet said his trachea felt fine to her and she couldn't have done an X ray of it without sedation. I don't want to seem like a hypochondriac, just trying to figure out what is going on here to account fo his not eating and strange behaviour with the information that I have.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Things are not going so great with Jasper right now.

We had got him pretty much toilet trained. He was pooing outside and weeing only outside or on a pee pad by the back door. We had not had any indoor accidents for weeks and weeks. Jasper still poos outside only but we are back to square one with the peeing.

He is still peeing every 20 minutes or less and this was fine when he used to take himself to the pee pad. But now he just pees wherever he happens to be at the time. He does not even circle to give you warning. And most of them are very small wees that he just didn't need to do. He is also refusing to use the pee pad most of the time which makes it so much more difficult since he pees so often. And he does not always pee when we take him outside either. So, he will pee on the floor after refusing to use the pad or not peeing outside.

I don't know why this could be. I would say that it is because he was at the vets for two nights... And I had been worried that this would disrupt his house training. But when we got him back I was relieved to find that he still went to the pad of his own accord. It was only a day or so after coming back from the vets that the constant accidents on the floor began (although he first peed on the floor a day BEFORE we took him to the vets, but this was right by the pee pad so we put it down to a mistake).

I don't know what to do about this. Obviously we are going to have to go back to basics again but it is so depressing.

Also he is still being weird about his food. He stopped eating the wet i/d as I said previously but we managed to gt him onto the dry i/d which he would eat. At first that was all good. But now he won't even eat that unless I hand feed it to him and he is leaving a lot of his meals. This is a puppy who used to devour anything you put in front of him and look for more. It is so odd. I get the feeling he will stop eating the dry i/d completely eventually as he is eating less and less of it as time goes on.


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## Guest (Apr 6, 2020)

How old is Jasper now? Because peeing every 20 minutes is NOT normal unless he is a very young puppy, which from the date on this thread, he's not. How can you possibly do anything if you're taking him out to toilet every 20 minutes?

Have you had a detailed discussion with a vet about the frequency of his urination? I know he's had tests but do the vets realise just how little control he has over his toileting?


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

McKenzie said:


> How old is Jasper now? Because peeing every 20 minutes is NOT normal unless he is a very young puppy, which from the date on this thread, he's not. How can you possibly do anything if you're taking him out to toilet every 20 minutes?
> 
> Have you had a detailed discussion with a vet about the frequency of his urination? I know he's had tests but do the vets realise just how little control he has over his toileting?


He will be 6 months old on the 21st of this month. We have talked to the vet about this a lot but once it was established that he didn't have a UTI they just said something along the lines of "oh some puppies get bladder control later than others"

It is impossible to get anything done and that is the problem. There are so many things that I have put off doing for the past three months because I was trying to get Jasper toilet trained. And then for the past month it seemed like all that effort had paid off because he wasn't peeing on the floor anymore. In April I had planned to finally get round to doing all the things I had put off... But then this happened and honestly it's a bit crushing.


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## Guest (Apr 6, 2020)

I’m sorry you’re having trouble with the house training, I can’t really sympathise much, Nova was pretty much fully housetrained by 6months. I can’t imagine how stressful it must be for you and for Jasper with those ongoing health issues . No advice here really. I guess if the vet can’t find anything wrong medically, you might just have to keep persisting with the basics or even get a second opinion.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Kakite said:


> I'm sorry you're having trouble with the house training, I can't really sympathise much, Nova was pretty much fully housetrained by 6months. I can't imagine how stressful it must be for you and for Jasper with those ongoing health issues . No advice here really. I guess if the vet can't find anything wrong medically, you might just have to keep persisting with the basics or even get a second opinion.


Thank you. The really irritating thing is that he WAS almost fully house trained up until about a week ago. It had been weeks since he had last peed on the floor and then suddenly... Pee everywhere.

We have gone back to basics but what with how often he is peeing it is really hard. This morning I tried to do something quickly on the computer and kept him by me on a lead and he peed - it had been only 5 minutes since he had last peed and was a minuscule amount.

I almost wonder if he is having bladder control issues because he keeps peeing when he stretches up to climb the little steps he uses get out of the back door.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Hmmmm yeah it is like any pressure on his bladder and it trickles out.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Another thing which is making it impossible to get anything done is that I am spending 4 hours a day trying to feed him (he gets fed four times a day and since he won't touch his food without being hand fed slowly now it takes an hour for him to eat each meal - that is with him usually only eating half to three quarters of the meal. Of course each hour when I am trying to get him to eat is also filled with him peeing)


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Sarah H said:


> Hmmmm yeah it is like any pressure on his bladder and it trickles out.


That's true, it could be that. Just now I took him outside and he peed. Then three minutes later he stood with his front legs on the top step and his back legs on the bottom step and peed again. I don't see how he had any more urine left to pee at that point.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Is it worth considering a belly band?

Not to prevent him weeing (especially if he’s leaking and can’t help it) but just to save your home and your sanity? 

You could even make a few out of an old towel and change it every time he pees so he doesn’t get sore/smelly. Nappy liners help wick moisture away from babies’ skin with towelling nappies.

Once things are back to normal maybe ask the vet to do some thorough investigations?

This way you can concentrate on his eating and ease the strain of the wee issue?


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## amplecrumlin (Oct 16, 2017)

Is there any chance there could be a bitch in season somewhere nearby? That can be enough to throw some dogs out of kilter. I know he's young, but maybe, in the absence of auditory input, his other senses are heightened and precocious.

If he were mine, I think he'd be wearing a belly band by now. They rightly get a bad press when people use them INSTEAD of training, but no-one could accuse you of that.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

I can't believe it. My mum was looking after Jasper while I was at university and she's just told me that he passed away today. He looked like he was sleeping in his bed. The vets have said that they think he had a heart attack in his sleep. There were no signs of anything wrong leading up to this.

I can't believe it. I'm completely heart broken. I feel so guilty for not having been there with him. It feels like there's no point to anything anymore. I loved him so much.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

April Pearl said:


> I can't believe it. My mum was looking after Jasper while I was at university and she's just told me that he passed away today. He looked like he was sleeping in his bed. The vets have said that they think he had a heart attack in his sleep. There were no signs of anything wrong leading up to this.
> 
> I can't believe it. I'm completely heart broken. I feel so guilty for not having been there with him. It feels like there's no point to anything anymore. I loved him so much.


I'm so sorry to read this I clicked on expecting an update of the lovely boy. Please remember that in his short life with you he was very loved and you did everything you could for him. He wouldn't want you to feel guilty. Do take care of yourself x


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> I can't believe it. My mum was looking after Jasper while I was at university and she's just told me that he passed away today. He looked like he was sleeping in his bed. The vets have said that they think he had a heart attack in his sleep. There were no signs of anything wrong leading up to this.
> 
> I can't believe it. I'm completely heart broken. I feel so guilty for not having been there with him. It feels like there's no point to anything anymore. I loved him so much.


Sorry for your loss

I had this happen with a young dog of mine. Well she was a bit older, aged 4. Don't beat yourself up, heart attack or possible aneurysm I was told by the vet

Be kind to yourself


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## PawsOnMe (Nov 1, 2012)

I'm so sorry for your loss, you loved him so much and couldn't have known this was going to happen. Please be kind to yourself x


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## margy (Dec 9, 2018)

I'm very sorry to read this, take care


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Thank you for your kind comments.

I don't think that I have ever felt grief like this even when human family members have died. I just don't know how life can be ok again. My heart hurts and it feels like a dreadful bad dream.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

April Pearl said:


> I can't believe it. My mum was looking after Jasper while I was at university and she's just told me that he passed away today. He looked like he was sleeping in his bed. The vets have said that they think he had a heart attack in his sleep. There were no signs of anything wrong leading up to this.
> 
> I can't believe it. I'm completely heart broken. I feel so guilty for not having been there with him. It feels like there's no point to anything anymore. I loved him so much.


Oh no! How sad! 

Listen - this is in no way your fault. You could never have seen this coming. He died in a comfy bed, surrounded by love and cared for by an owner who battled for his short life against the odds, when many others would have given up. He didn't suffer.

Guilt is part of the grieving process. Take each day as it comes. The waves will come thick and fast at first, but gradually they will grow calmer and fewer and further between. Just let yourself ride them.

And you will meet again! At Rainbow Bridge.

Gentle hugs.

When you're walking down the street
Memories of me on your mind
I'm walking in your footsteps
Just half a step behind

And when the time comes
For you to go
From that body to be free
Remember you're not going
You're coming home to me.
_Anonymous_​


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

April Pearl said:


> Thank you for your kind comments.
> 
> I don't think that I have ever felt grief like this even when human family members have died. I just don't know how life can be ok again. My heart hurts and it feels like a dreadful bad dream.


It will get better take it slowly if you need to talk we are all here. When I lost my boxer I used the Blue Cross counselling service who were amazing.


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## karenmc (Feb 3, 2018)

I am so sorry to hear this update. Like @Boxer123 I thought it would be a lovely update on your little boy. In all your understandable sadness please take comfort in the fact he was peacefully sleeping in his bed at home and after a tough start in life was doing really well following you and your family's. Commitment to his care. Sending our love.


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## niamh123 (Nov 4, 2018)

I am so sorry for your loss


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Very very sorry this has happened, such a well loved little dog too. Let yourself grieve and remember the good life you gave him


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

I am so sorry to hear this news. You gave him everything you possibly could and took good care of him when a lot of people would have given up. I know the pain is awful now, but it will get easier with time and there will be happy times ahead. Run free Jasper, sweet boy xxx


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## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

So very sorry to hear this, after such a long time I too was looking forward to an update on the lovely Jasper's progress. I didn't expect such sad news. Condolences on your loss, please take care of yourself.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Oh I'm so so sorry to hear this. I can imagine how upsetting and generally just unreal this is right now. Allow yourself time to grieve. There is no right or wrong, and definitely talk to someone if you need to, strangers on the end of a phone are sometimes easier to open up to than friends and family. 
You did your best by him, much more than a lot of other people would have. It's not your fault. Take care.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Thank you everyone. I just don't understand how this can have happened. He had his vet check up in January and they said everything was fine. And my mum took him for a walk yesterday morning and nothing was wrong. And then suddenly he's gone. It makes no sense.

His breeder has said that she has never heard of a young dog just dying like this. I feel so guilty. What if it was something we could have prevented?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

April Pearl said:


> His breeder has said that she has never heard of a young dog just dying like this.


The same breeder who sold you a sickly deaf dog who was so tiny and needed to be revived with syrup if I remember right? 
Doesn't she also breed merles? 
I wouldn't put much on her opinion or effort to breed healthy dogs.

I'm so sorry about Jasper


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

April Pearl said:


> Thank you everyone. I just don't understand how this can have happened. He had his vet check up in January and they said everything was fine. And my mum took him for a walk yesterday morning and nothing was wrong. And then suddenly he's gone. It makes no sense.
> 
> His breeder has said that she has never heard of a young dog just dying like this. I feel so guilty. *What if it was something we could have prevented?*


Like what?! The vet suspects a heart attack. There's no way you could have known. It's not like he could clutch his chest and tell you he thinks he's having a heart attack, is it?. 

The breeder's playing with your mind, trying to absolve herself of responsibility.

*This is not your fault.* ​
He was badly bred by a dodgy breeder, and died in his sleep. He didn't know. Neither did you.

Please be kind to yourself. You gave him everything. You loved him - your grief now is testament to that.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

O2.0 said:


> The same breeder who sold you a sickly deaf dog who was so tiny and needed to be revived with syrup if I remember right?
> Doesn't she also breed merles?
> I wouldn't put much on her opinion or effort to breed healthy dogs.
> 
> I'm so sorry about Jasper


She also said to me that she has never had a dog that she has bred die after leaving her.

But I am a member of a facebook group that she made for owners of her puppies and I know that there was one who died at six months old after leaving her as the owner made a post about it. It seemed to be heart troubles in that case as they said 'his heart was too big for his little body' or something like that - don't don't if that was a metaphor or not. I am very confused.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

April Pearl said:


> She also said to me that she has never had a dog that she has bred die after leaving her.
> 
> But I am a member of a facebook group that she made for owners of her puppies and I know that there was one who died at six months old after leaving her as the owner made a post about it. It seemed to be heart troubles in that case as they said 'his heart was too big for his little body' or something like that - don't don't if that was a metaphor or not. I am very confused.


Yeah, she's playing mind games.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

LinznMilly said:


> Like what?! The vet suspects a heart attack. There's no way you could have known. It's not like he could clutch his chest and tell you he thinks he's having a heart attack, is it?.
> 
> The breeder's playing with your mind, trying to absolve herself of responsibility.
> 
> ...


Thank you. She also said that she has never had a dog that she bred die after leaving her but I know that she has because I'm a member of a facebook group that she made for owners of her puppies and someone made a post about their puppy from her dying - he was six months old.

Not saying that Jasper died because of being badly bred but it does confuse me that she would say something like that to me.

I am afraid I will probably always feel guilty about this. I wish I had gone back home from university over Christmas. If I had then I'd not have been stuck at uni because of covid restrictions on travel. And I would have been with him. Maybe I could have stopped it if I had been there. I wanted to be at uni for the libraries and I thought I'd have at least the next ten years with Jasper.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

April Pearl said:


> Thank you. She also said that she has never had a dog that she bred die after leaving her but I know that she has because I'm a member of a facebook group that she made for owners of her puppies and someone made a post about their puppy from her dying - he was six months old.
> 
> Not saying that Jasper died because of being badly bred but it does confuse me that she would say something like that to me.
> 
> I am afraid I will probably always feel guilty about this. I wish I had gone back home from university over Christmas. If I had then I'd not have been stuck at uni because of covid restrictions on travel. I wanted to be here for the libraries and I thought I'd have at least the next ten years with Jasper.


Sweet, he was badly bred. Whether that contributed to his death or not will probably never be known. It could be one of those things, but as his sibling also died of a heart problem, it could also hint at a possible congenital link that simply remained under the radar until it was too late.

This breeder has a history of playing with your mind - right from the start she's been denying responsibility. "He never went hypoglycemic when he was with me!' (undertone:, "so it must be your fault!") "I've never had any of my puppies die after leaving for their new homes" (undertone: "it's your fault!")

You weren't to know you had months and not years with him.

Don't let her play with your mind! It's the last thing you need right now.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

@April Pearl ask yourself just one question - why is the breeder so intent on making every problem seem like your fault? What does she gain by it? First his low sugar levels, now his untimely death.

A reputable breeder shouldn't behave like this.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

LinznMilly said:


> Sweet, he was badly bred. Whether that contributed to his death or not will probably never be known. It could be one of those things, but as his sibling also died of a heart problem, it could also hint at a possible congenital link that simply remained under the radar until it was too late.
> 
> This breeder has a history of playing with your mind - right from the start she's been denying responsibility. "He never went hypoglycemic when he was with me!' (undertone:, "so it must be your fault!") "I've never had any of my puppies die after leaving for their new homes" (undertone: "it's your fault!")
> 
> ...


Thank you. I just wish I knew why. The vets said they didn't think it was worth doing a post mortem so my mum asked them to send his body for cremation. I decided we should do an autopsy and this morning my mum called the vets but his body had gone to the crematorium already. They tried to get him back but it was too late.


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## edinoodle (Oct 18, 2019)

So sorry for your loss, the breeder doesn't sound supportive at all.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

April Pearl said:


> Thank you. I just wish I knew why. The vets said they didn't think it was worth doing a post mortem so my mum asked them to send his body for cremation. I decided we should do an autopsy and this morning my mum called the vets but his body had gone to the crematorium already. They tried to get him back but it was too late.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

April Pearl said:


> Thank you. She also said that she has never had a dog that she bred die after leaving her but I know that she has because I'm a member of a facebook group that she made for owners of her puppies and someone made a post about their puppy from her dying - he was six months old.
> 
> Not saying that Jasper died because of being badly bred but it does confuse me that she would say something like that to me.
> 
> I am afraid I will probably always feel guilty about this. I wish I had gone back home from university over Christmas. If I had then I'd not have been stuck at uni because of covid restrictions on travel. And I would have been with him. Maybe I could have stopped it if I had been there. I wanted to be at uni for the libraries and I thought I'd have at least the next ten years with Jasper.


Am surprised the dog never suggested aneurysm like my own vet. I suppose 2 different ways of thinking.

Knowing toy breeds rather well. A heart problem like the one at 6 months would have been picked up at vaccination time. That is mighty odd if it wasn't. 2 chances to get it right and a vet didn't. Mmmm odd

I don't get why you never ever, ever, would say anything bad about the breeder and now you do.

However, my biggest worry in all of this with so much blame towards the breeder, it won't bring Jasper back. Learn from your mistakes and move on.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

lullabydream said:


> Am surprised the dog never suggested aneurysm like my own vet. I suppose 2 different ways of thinking.
> 
> Knowing toy breeds rather well. A heart problem like the one at 6 months would have been picked up at vaccination time. That is mighty odd if it wasn't. 2 chances to get it right and a vet didn't. Mmmm odd
> 
> ...


I didn't say something bad about or blame the breeder. I just said I was confused that she said to me that she had never had a dog die after leaving her but it turns out that she has.

I don't know why he died. I wish my mum had asked for a post mortem. I am well aware that it is probably something we did or didn't do. I will feel guilty until the day I die. Don't think I will ever have any more pets after this. Clearly I am just incompetent.

I don't know precisely what the vet said to my mum as I was not there. I am at university. She said to me that the vet said it was probably heart failure/heart attack. Don't know what words the vets actually used.

No, Jasper has never shown signs of something wrong with his heart. And all was fine at his January checkup. So I don't know if the vet was right or not. It's awful and I wish I knew why.

And yes I have learned from this. I won't have any more pets because I am a useless owner.

But I don't think I can comply with your other request and 'move on' so easily. Jasper was everything to me. I am heartbroken.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

I meant move on with the blame game and grieve and treasure the memories


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

lullabydream said:


> I meant move on with the blame game and grieve and treasure the memories


I don't know what you mean by the blame game because I don't blame anyone but myself. And I can't treasure the memories because it hurts too much. If I could forget him completely I would


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## edinoodle (Oct 18, 2019)

It will get easier, but for now allow yourself to grieve and be upset. I lost my horse, who was everything to me, at Christmas and I'm still not over it. I doubt I ever will be, but take one day at a time and gradually things will seem better. He had a lovely life with you and was so loved, that is something really special and something to remember at this time


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

So sorry to hear that xx

Be kind to yourself. You did a very good job, with a very sick puppy. The breeder should not have sold him in the first place.
It's nothing to do with you being incompetent...look at what you nursed him through, he wouldn't have made it as far as he did, without your care.

Don't let it put you off owning a pet in the future. You now know the type of breeder to avoid.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Oh dear, that's so sad. You poured your heart and soul into Jasper, you have absolutely no reason to blame yourself. He was under-sized, a sickly puppy with health problems, these pups have the odds stacked against them. 
It must have been a terrible shock for you. As others have said guilt is a normal part of grieving, the intensity will fade. That little dog was so lucky to have your love and care, and to die in his own bed with his loved ones around. It's very sad that you weren't with him but he wouldn't have known.
Sending you love, hugs and sympathy. You know where we are.xx


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

April Pearl said:


> I didn't say something bad about or blame the breeder. I just said I was confused that she said to me that she had never had a dog die after leaving her but it turns out that she has.
> 
> I don't know why he died. I wish my mum had asked for a post mortem. I am well aware that it is probably something we did or didn't do. I will feel guilty until the day I die. Don't think I will ever have any more pets after this. Clearly I am just incompetent.
> 
> ...


You're not an incompetent owner. Your only fault in this is your choice of breeder - and that's naiveté - not incompetence. You're not the first to be taken in by a dodgy breeder and you won't be the last.

It's too early to even think about another dog or pet right now, but please don't let this put you off owning pets in the future. Little Jasper landed on his feet with you. No one could have fought any harder for him than you did.



lullabydream said:


> I meant move on with the blame game and grieve and treasure the memories


She's not blaming the breeder.  If anything, I am. Not @April Pearl .



April Pearl said:


> I don't know what you mean by the blame game because I don't blame anyone but myself. And I can't treasure the memories because it hurts too much. If I could forget him completely I would


No, you can't treasure the memories right now, but in time you will. The grief won't always be this intense. I promise.  even the darkest night ends eventually.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Oh @April Pearl i wish I could hug you. Two years ago my 3 year old boxer Lily died from a heart attack. It was very sudden she had a funny episode 2 weeks prior. I thought it might have been her heart. She saw 4 different vets including a cardiologist who all said she was fine. We ordered a scan and halter to double check. Unfortunately before this could happen she died.

Like you I didn't have a chance to say good bye we rushed her to the vets they whisked her off but couldn't save her. I desperately wish I could have told her I loved her and she was my best girl before she went.

Did I blame people yes I blamed the vets, everyone who told me she was fine, I blamed my ex for putting a jumper on before we left for the vets but mostly I blamed myself for letting her down.

I went through a dark period in my life people relationships I find tricky but I love my dogs and was devastated by the loss.

Over time and a lot of support on here and from the Blue cross I let that blame go. It was no ones fault it just happened.

Jaspers breeder sounds very toxic pay her no more mind and concentrate on you. Over time those tears will turn to smiles. You fought for that little fella when many wouldn't. He died in his sleep in a comfy bed in a home where he was loved very much.


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## Kaily (Feb 8, 2020)

Thinking of you, absolutely nothing you could of done. The pain will ease in time.

Sleep tight little Jasper. X


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> I went through a dark period in my life people relationships I find tricky but I love my dogs and was devastated by the loss.


This is so similar to me. I find interacting with human people and maintaining relationships with them very difficult. I have no friends and never talk to anyone else at uni, I haven't seen my dad or his side of my family in over ten years, the few members of my mum's family who are still alive I barely talk to when I do see them. I can't remember the last time I had a conversation with my own brother. It's not that we fought, it's just because I find talking to people hard.

The only two people who I had proper relationships with were my mum and Jasper. And now Jasper is dead. And I can't cope.

He was one of the only aspects of my life which gave me happiness and hope.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

April Pearl said:


> This is so similar to me. I find interacting with human people and maintaining relationships with them very difficult. I have no friends and never talk to anyone else at uni, I haven't seen my dad or his side of my family in over ten years, the few members of my mum's family who are still alive I barely talk to when I do see them. I can't remember the last time I had a conversation with my own brother. It's not that we fought, it's just because I find talking to people hard.
> 
> The only two people who I had proper relationships with were my mum and Jasper. And now Jasper is dead. And I can't cope.
> 
> He was one of the only aspects of my life which gave me happiness and hope.


It is hard to believe but it does get easier is there a student counselling service at your uni you can tap into ? It helps to talk or maybe go home for a couple of weeks. You have to take it a day at a time.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> It is hard to believe but it does get easier is there a student counselling service at your uni you can tap into ? It helps to talk or maybe go home for a couple of weeks. You have to take it a day at a time.


There is a student counselling service but I believe the wait time is at least 4 weeks. I don't want to go home because Jasper should be there and he won't be. I think that would make it even worse.

I hope it does get better. Doesn't feel like the pain will ever go away right now.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

April Pearl said:


> There is a student counselling service but I believe the wait time is at least 4 weeks. I don't want to go home because Jasper should be there and he won't be. I think that would make it even worse.
> 
> I hope it does get better. Doesn't feel like the pain will ever go away right now.


The Blue across were great you can phone or email I emailed because I couldn't stop crying.


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## April Pearl (Apr 2, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> The Blue across were great you can phone or email I emailed because I couldn't stop crying.


Blue cross seems like a good idea. Sent them an email last night, I hope they can help me somehow.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

April Pearl said:


> Blue cross seems like a good idea. Sent them an email last night, I hope they can help me somehow.


And keep talking on here everyone was amazing when I lost lily. Your not alone.


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