# Bernedoodle Puppies



## Vicky Duggan

Hi, we are looking to buy a Bernedoodle puppy in the UK but are really struggling to find any!? 
Is anybody about to point us in the right direction? 
Thanks


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## O2.0

You will likely struggle to find a responsible breeder of this cross. 
This is the US Bernese Mountain Dog Club's statement on crosses, I urge you to read it:
http://bmdca.org/club/mixedbreed.ph...lgvE_j9lsgl_McDdM4Qmh4wqXpJqERErFT6SntXHsMlEg


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## Lurcherlad

If you want a mongrel, I suggest looking in rescue where there will be lots waiting for a new home (especially after Lockdown when reality kicks in)


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## Blitz

What a dreadful cross - sorry but what on earth is the coat going to end up like and their temperaments are so different you would have no idea what sort of dog you would end up with. I really hope there are not too many people crossing those breeds.


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## simplysardonic

You will struggle to find anyone apart from BYBs & puppy farms breeding at the moment, add to that the fact that no one, anywhere, would be breeding this cross responsibly anyway.

What has attracted you to this mix of 2 very different dogs?


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## ttaylor45

Blitz said:


> What a dreadful cross - sorry but what on earth is the coat going to end up like and their temperaments are so different you would have no idea what sort of dog you would end up with. I really hope there are not too many people crossing those breeds.


I met a poodle crossed with a newfoundland in my local pet shop last year it was a lovely friendly dog but the owner said it had a problem with its back legs hips I think and would require an operation in the future. It seemed a strange mix to me I must admit.


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## Sarah H

Why would you want this cross? If you like Bernies then get one. If you like poodles then get one. Standard poodles are quite large and you can leave them in a shaggy pet clip rather than a show clip, and they look great. I dread to think of the disaster of a coat this cross might have! I also have met a newfy x poodle and it just looked like a generic poodle cross, just a bit thicker set. Didn't appeal at all.


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## Linda Weasel

I had a friend who bred Bernese and I have to say that, despite the best efforts of responsible breeders, they really must be one of the unhealthiest of breeds. And a very short life-span compared to a lot of other dogs; I don’t know if this is a ‘giant breed’ thing or not.

So if the good breeders can’t get it right, what hope for somebody who thinks it’s ok to cross it with something as diametrically opposite as a poodle??


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## kirksandallchins

Bernese are not the healthiest or long lived breeds, they would probably benefit from a good outcross programme. As shown with the Boxer/Corgi crosses you can get type back within a few generations. 

I wouldn't want one, but why would the coats of crossing the breed with Poodle be harder to maintain than Labradoodles or Cockapoos?


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## mrs phas

kirksandallchins said:


> Bernese are not the healthiest or long lived breeds, they would probably benefit from a good outcross programme. As shown with the Boxer/Corgi crosses you can get type back within a few generations.
> 
> I wouldn't want one, but why would the coats of crossing the breed with Poodle be harder to maintain than Labradoodles or Cockapoos?


boxer/corgi crosses ?
what for
and
what type would one want to get back to with this crossbreed


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## Blitz

kirksandallchins said:


> Bernese are not the healthiest or long lived breeds, they would probably benefit from a good outcross programme. As shown with the Boxer/Corgi crosses you can get type back within a few generations.
> 
> I wouldn't want one, but why would the coats of crossing the breed with Poodle be harder to maintain than Labradoodles or Cockapoos?


Some labradoodle coats are a nightmare but labs have short coats, Bernese have extremely thick longer coats so the combination with the poodle would be far more extreme than the worst of the other poodle cross coats.

I dont understand why a boxer and corgi would be crossed to improve either breed. Short legged , long backed, squashed faces - what would be the advantages.


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## Lurcherlad

The Op hasn’t returned since 10 minutes past original post so I doubt they’ll pick up any of the forum wisdom to ponder ....


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## simplysardonic

Blitz said:


> Some labradoodle coats are a nightmare but labs have short coats, Bernese have extremely thick longer coats so the combination with the poodle would be far more extreme than the worst of the other poodle cross coats.
> 
> I dont understand why a boxer and corgi would be crossed to improve either breed. Short legged , long backed, squashed faces - what would be the advantages.


The mix was used to introduce the bobtail gene from corgis, as after the docking ban people still wanted the look. I don't know the logic behind such morphologically different breeds or why someone would do it just for the sake of aesthetics, but I suppose it could be due to injury risks in the rambunctious boxer's constantly whipping tail? Personally I don't see a reason for outcrossing except for introducing genetic diversity or for health reasons (like the LUA dallies).


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## Blitz

simplysardonic said:


> The mix was used to introduce the bobtail gene from corgis, as after the docking ban people still wanted the look. I don't know the logic behind such morphologically different breeds or why someone would do it just for the sake of aesthetics, but I suppose it could be due to injury risks in the rambunctious boxer's constantly whipping tail? Personally I don't see a reason for outcrossing except for introducing genetic diversity or for health reasons (like the LUA dallies).


How did it do that without shortening the legs and lengthening the backs. I have seen a bobtail boxer but did not realise that is where it came from. It worked very quickly as I saw one some years ago and docking has not been banned all that long in the scheme of things.


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## mrs phas

simplysardonic said:


> The mix was used to introduce the bobtail gene from corgis, as after the docking ban people still wanted the look. I don't know the logic behind such morphologically different breeds or why someone would do it just for the sake of aesthetics, but I suppose it could be due to injury risks in the rambunctious boxer's constantly whipping tail? Personally I don't see a reason for outcrossing except for introducing genetic diversity or for health reasons (like the LUA dallies).


Boxers have always been born bob or long, like OES, so I don't get the point
But then
This is why I don't breed


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## Blitz

mrs phas said:


> Boxers have always been born bob or long, like OES, so I don't get the point
> But then
> This is why I don't breed


I guessed that was the case. I am still lost on how a corgi could do anything but wreck a boxer.


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## JessieH

Vicky Duggan said:


> Hi, we are looking to buy a Bernedoodle puppy in the UK but are really struggling to find any!?
> Is anybody about to point us in the right direction?
> Thanks


Hi Vicky,

Did you ever find a UK breeder at all? My partner and I are also currently looking.

Thanks x


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## SusieRainbow

JessieH said:


> Hi Vicky,
> 
> Did you ever find a UK breeder at all? My partner and I are also currently looking.
> 
> Thanks x


Hi @JessieH 
I suggest you read the rest of the thread as to why it's not a reccommended cross breed. The OP has not responded since her first post.


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## JessieH

SusieRainbow said:


> Hi @JessieH
> I suggest you read the rest of the thread as to why it's not a reccommended cross breed. The OP has not responded since her first post.


Yes I have thank you.


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## simplysardonic

JessieH said:


> Yes I have thank you.


And they haven't put you off?

You might also want to read the stickies about puppy farms & unscrupulous breeders while you are here, these crosses are their bred & butter, you buy the puppies, you buy into the suffering of the many thousands of breeding dogs that produce them.


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## JessieH

simplysardonic said:


> And they haven't put you off?
> 
> You might also want to read the stickies about puppy farms & unscrupulous breeders while you are here, these crosses are their bred & butter, you buy the puppies, you buy into the suffering of the many thousands of breeding dogs that produce them.


Yep also read about that, thank you. Which is why I wouldn't buy from them but was curious to know whether Vicky had found a reputable breeder yet.


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## simplysardonic

JessieH said:


> Yep also read about that, thank you. Which is why I wouldn't buy from them but was curious to know whether Vicky had found a reputable breeder yet.


There will literally be no chance of finding a reputable breeder, & a backyard breeder who loves their pets & decided to let them have a litter would still not qualify as a reputable breeder.

There are very, _very_ few breeders of the more popular poodle mixes who do things right, so there will likely be none breeding poodles with less common breeds like Bernese.

If you like poodles, why not get a poodle?

If you like Bernese, why not get a Bernese?

If you are hoping for a Bernese that doesn't shed (which seems to be why everyone wants them) then you won't get that, you'll probably just get a dog with a high maintenance mess of a coat.


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## JessieH

simplysardonic said:


> There will literally be no chance of finding a reputable breeder, & a backyard breeder who loves their pets & decided to let them have a litter would still not qualify as a reputable breeder.
> 
> There are very, _very_ few breeders of the more popular poodle mixes who do things right, so there will likely be none breeding poodles with less common breeds like Bernese.
> 
> If you like poodles, why not get a poodle?
> 
> If you like Bernese, why not get a Bernese?
> 
> If you are hoping for a Bernese that doesn't shed (which seems to be why everyone wants them) then you won't get that, you'll probably just get a dog with a high maintenance mess of a coat.


Thank you again, but I already know all of this hence the question to VICKY about whether she had found one. 
I already own a poodle cross so know everything about their coats and the 50/50 chance. I have family in the US who own 2 bernedoodle's and have no problems with their health or temperament... again I understand the 50/50 chance. It's a personal opinion/preference just like yours.


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## simplysardonic

JessieH said:


> Thank you again, but I already know all of this hence the question to VICKY about whether she had found one.
> I already own a poodle cross so know everything about their coats and the 50/50 chance. I have family in the US who own 2 bernedoodle's and have no problems with their health or temperament... again I understand the 50/50 chance. It's a personal opinion/preference just like yours.


So you know not all poodle crosses will have the same coat as yours?

Puppy farming is a huge business in the US, & it's not about the health or temperament of a couple of dogs you know of, it's about the unethical market for poodle crosses that has sprung up.

Unfortunately it's not just about personal preference or opinions, it's about ethics, animal welfare & making responsible choices, it's about the wretched lives of the dogs & bitches that produce the puppies for you & your family, the dogs that you don't see.


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## Pricivius

50/50 chance? What 50/50 chance? It’s my understanding that coat type is a lot more complicated than 50/50. My experience is more with labradoodles and I fostered 5 of them and their coats varied from curly to wiry to smooth with varying lengths, going from shedding like the worst lab to needing regular grooming because the curls matted easily with shed fur trapped. That’s not 50/50.


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## SusieRainbow

JessieH said:


> Thank you again, but I already know all of this hence the question to VICKY about whether she had found one.
> I already own a poodle cross so know everything about their coats and the 50/50 chance. I have family in the US who own 2 bernedoodle's and have no problems with their health or temperament... again I understand the 50/50 chance. It's a personal opinion/preference just like yours.


Do you mean a 50/50 chance that the dogs would be born healthy and of good temperament , or whch breed characteristcs they would inherit ? 
@O2.0 posted a link wth an explanation as to why a reliable and ethical breeder would not allow this cross to happen ,did you read it ? Or is everyone else deluded ?


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## JessieH

SusieRainbow said:


> Do you mean a 50/50 chance that the dogs would be born healthy and of good temperament , or whch breed characteristcs they would inherit ?
> @O2.0 posted a link wth an explanation as to why a reliable and ethical breeder would not allow this cross to happen ,did you read it ? Or is everyone else deluded ?


Haha never said everyone is deluded, literally asked whether a reputable breeder has been found... such an innocent genuine question! I thought this was a friendly helpful pet forum?! I just wanted a simple question answered instead of a backlash from people who clearly dislike cross breeds. I have read it and completely understand but I know there are reputable breeders in the US, I know there are also a lot of puppy farms out there. So just wanted to know whether she had found one in the UK! 
I meant 50/50 chance on which breeds characteristics would come through, and 50/50 chance of the coat malting or not malting. There are a lot of reputable breeders of cross breeds maybe not yet for the bernedoodle in the UK from what I am gathering, but other there are for other poodle cross breeds.


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## Pricivius

I don’t think it’s a 50/50 chance of the coat moulting - there are others who know far more about this than me.

I am not as convinced that there are any reputable breeders of poodle crosses in the UK, although happy to be proved wrong.


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## SusieRainbow

JessieH said:


> Haha never said everyone is deluded, literally asked whether a reputable breeder has been found... such an innocent genuine question! I thought this was a friendly helpful pet forum?! I just wanted a simple question answered instead of a backlash from people who clearly dislike cross breeds. I have read it and completely understand but I know there are reputable breeders in the US, I know there are also a lot of puppy farms out there. So just wanted to know whether she had found one in the UK!
> I meant 50/50 chance on which breeds characteristics would come through, and 50/50 chance of the coat malting or not malting. There are a lot of reputable breeders of cross breeds maybe not yet for the bernedoodle in the UK from what I am gathering, but other there are for other poodle cross breeds.


We're not setting out to be unhelpful or unfriendly, just pointng out that no ethical breeder, for reasons as stated, would touch this cross breeding. If you do find a breeder please let us know, but I will guarantee it wll not be in the best interest of the dogs, only the breeder.


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## simplysardonic

JessieH said:


> I just wanted a simple question answered instead of a backlash from people who clearly dislike cross breeds.


It isn't a backlash, it's merely a concern for people repeatedly not looking at the bigger picture (or seeing & then ignoring it) when it comes to buying animals.

Many of us have crossbreeds on here so we hardly dislike them, but breeding pointless crosses of completely incompatible breeds from usually poor quality breeding dogs isn't something anyone who actually cares about animal welfare would be encouraging.



JessieH said:


> There are a lot of reputable breeders of cross breeds maybe not yet for the bernedoodle in the UK from what I am gathering, but other there are for other poodle cross breeds.


I'm afraid I disagree.

Even the official 'breed' club for a very popular poodle mix lists a number of puppy farms as breeders that adhere to their own code of ethics, & a very well known breeder has recently been exposed by a campaign group.


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## Rafa

JessieH said:


> Haha never said everyone is deluded, literally asked whether a reputable breeder has been found... such an innocent genuine question! I thought this was a friendly helpful pet forum?! I just wanted a simple question answered instead of a backlash from people who clearly dislike cross breeds. I have read it and completely understand but I know there are reputable breeders in the US, I know there are also a lot of puppy farms out there. So just wanted to know whether she had found one in the UK!
> I meant 50/50 chance on which breeds characteristics would come through, and 50/50 chance of the coat malting or not malting. There are a lot of reputable breeders of cross breeds maybe not yet for the bernedoodle in the UK from what I am gathering, but other there are for other poodle cross breeds.


Yes, it was an innocent question.

The majority of reputable breeders are in it to better the breed, produce a class working dog, or pups which will mature to become service/guide dogs.

Anyone breeding the cross you're looking for is not breeding for the above reasons, so the likelihood is it will be a money making exercise.

These are so called Backyard Breeders and they tend to be focused on the money, not the health of the pups they breed.

This is a friendly forum but not a place where members shy away from being honest.


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## O2.0

JessieH said:


> I know there are reputable breeders in the US,


Sorry but no. Read the link I posted, oh heck, never mind, I'll just C/P from that link:
"Preservation Bernese Mountain Dog or Poodle breeders will not allow their dogs to be crossbred. Therefore, the dogs generally used to breed doodles are of unknown quality or heritage." 
Translation: no one who owns a well bred Berner or Poodle would ever in a million years allow their dog to be bred for this mix. Therefore the dogs you're starting with will already be the ones from less than good breeders. Not shown, not evaluated by outside parties, not health tested (Berners are a breed rife with health problems). You can't create great genetics from poor genetics any more than you can create a chocolate cake using chicory instead of chocolate. 
To put it more bluntly, breed shit you get shit. It doesn't get better just 'cause you crossed it with something else.

I have nothing against purpose bred cross-breeds that start with excellent genetics. Those do exist, but they're not BernerXpoodles, they're sport dogs and working dogs etc. 
And honestly, there are some fabulous mutts and mixes in rescue, if you don't care what kind of genetics you're starting with, just get a mutt from the pound. I have one and he's awesome. Just don't line an unscrupulous breeder's pockets based on a lie and false advertising.



JessieH said:


> I meant 50/50 chance on which breeds characteristics would come through, and 50/50 chance of the coat malting or not malting.


Genetics doesn't work that way. Remember Punnett squares from biology class? Remember dominant/recessive genes? You breed two dogs, some may look like mom, some may look like dad, some may look like neither. 
A dog's coat (and more importantly, temperament) will be based on multiple genetic factors. There is no 50/50 anything.


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## Sairy

JessieH said:


> Haha never said everyone is deluded, literally asked whether a reputable breeder has been found... such an innocent genuine question! I thought this was a friendly helpful pet forum?! I just wanted a simple question answered instead of a backlash from people who clearly dislike cross breeds. I have read it and completely understand but I know there are reputable breeders in the US, I know there are also a lot of puppy farms out there. So just wanted to know whether she had found one in the UK!
> I meant 50/50 chance on which breeds characteristics would come through, and 50/50 chance of the coat malting or not malting. There are a lot of reputable breeders of cross breeds maybe not yet for the bernedoodle in the UK from what I am gathering, but other there are for other poodle cross breeds.


Do you have the names of any of the reputable breeders in the US? I am curious to find out more.


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## SusieRainbow

I have a feeling the OP won't be back.


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## O2.0

SusieRainbow said:


> I have a feeling the OP won't be back.


Which one, Jessie or Vicky?

Still a good conversation on ethical breeding and genetics


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## SusieRainbow

O2.0 said:


> Which one, Jessie or Vicky?
> 
> Still a good conversation on ethical breeding and genetics


Either of them, due to not getting the answers they were looking for .
Defnitely a worthwhile discusson.


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## Sairy

I searched "bernedoodle" to see what Google would throw up and have looked on several sites at different breeders. None of them would strike me as being reputable and all were advertising several different "breeds" for sale, including purebreeds and various doodle combinations. One breeder was even advertising "breeder's choice" bernedoodle pups for £6,000!!!! Eye watering! 

There is so much misinformation about them on the sites I looked at. The usual "hypoallergenic" nonsense being spouted, as well as "hybrid vigour" and claims that pups would be more healthy than their purebreed parents. One site even said that because bernedoodles are bred as pets, not show dogs, they would be friendlier. 

It really is no wonder that people are confused about these crosses when there are all these claims on a multitude of sites.


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## Sairy

Also, is it me or do a lot of these doodle crosses look the same? I mean I could look at one and 9 times out of 10 I can see poodle in there but couldn't tell you what the other breed is. Just googling a few different ones confirmed it:

Here we have the labradoodle









The cockapoo









The Bernedoodle









And (oh dear lord what have they done to my favourite breed) the Shepadoodle









I just honestly don't understand the point of crossing poodle with all these different breeds. Poodles are great dogs and look much the same as most of the crosses. Why not just get a poodle?


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## lullabydream

Sairy said:


> Also, is it me or do a lot of these doodle crosses look the same? I mean I could look at one and 9 times out of 10 I can see poodle in there but couldn't tell you what the other breed is. Just googling a few different ones confirmed it:
> 
> Here we have the labradoodle
> View attachment 443595
> 
> 
> The cockapoo
> View attachment 443597
> 
> 
> The Bernedoodle
> View attachment 443596
> 
> 
> And (oh dear lord what have they done to my favourite breed) the Shepadoodle
> View attachment 443598
> 
> 
> I just honestly don't understand the point of crossing poodle with all these different breeds. Poodles are great dogs and look much the same as most of the crosses. Why not just get a poodle?


When I helped/worked in a pet shop with a groomers.. If I didn't get chance to look at the grooming card before a dog came in to be groomed. I think I offended a lot of owners of poo crosses asking what breed they were, as if I should recognise a crossbreed as easy as I recognise a GSD, or CKC. Then you had the cavapoos, the cavaschons they were popular too.. They all had very similiar cuts too. Owners choice, persuaded by the groomer as most of the coats were a terrible mess too, to be honest.


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## Sarah H

We had a "Newfiepoo" at work before. Just looked like a generic poodle cross. And some of the crosses looks like scruffy lurchers with wirey coats (nothing wrong with a scruffy lurcher), I don't get the appeal of paying large amounts for a doodle x. I do like the look of the teddy bear cockapoos, but it's not a breed I'd choose and pay for. Rescue yes, but not pay a breeder for. Lots of dogs look cute, but aren't bred ethically (let's not get into the brachy breed debate!). To me looks isn't something I'd pick a dog on. Yes, I have a preference and if I don't like the look of a breed I don't particularly want to own it, but looks is just one consideration when it comes to picking a breed or cross.


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## Daisy Doodle's parents

*Do not buy from Ceri Bennett in Aberystwyth.*
We bought our gorgeous F1 bernedoodle, Daisy Doodle for £3000 in August 2020. She arrived with bi-lateral cateracts - blind in one eye, restricted sight in the other - and had not had her full vaccinations. Due to the eye condition her pet insurance will be £1000 per year for her lifetime. Her surgery (thank goodness it is possible to improve her sight) will cost up to £10,000.
We have been in a constant legal battle to recover part of the cost of buying her, now resolved after a CCJ was made against the breeder.
She is a wonderful part of our family and we would recommend the breed - but find a reputable and licensed breeder!


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## O2.0

Daisy Doodle's parents said:


> *Do not buy from Ceri Bennett in Aberystwyth.*
> We bought our gorgeous F1 bernedoodle, Daisy Doodle for £3000 in August 2020. She arrived with bi-lateral cateracts - blind in one eye, restricted sight in the other - and had not had her full vaccinations. Due to the eye condition her pet insurance will be £1000 per year for her lifetime. Her surgery (thank goodness it is possible to improve her sight) will cost up to £10,000.
> We have been in a constant legal battle to recover part of the cost of buying her, now resolved after a CCJ was made against the breeder.
> She is a wonderful part of our family and we would recommend the breed - but find a reputable and licensed breeder!


Hi, I'm sorry you've had a bad experience with your dog. 
Bernerdoodles are not a breed, they're a crossbreed and a there are no 'reputable' breeders of this cross. Look at the rest of the thread.


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## Daisy Doodle's parents

O2.0 said:


> Hi, I'm sorry you've had a bad experience with your dog.
> Bernerdoodles are not a breed, they're a crossbreed and a there are no 'reputable' breeders of this cross. Look at the rest of the thread.


Thanks for this, you are backing us up! (although ALL dogs are crossbreeds really - somewhere in their history?) There are reputable breeders out there - even for cross breeds. The health & welfare of the puppies is paramount - no matter the breed.
one example is curtabemdoodles - we wish we had gone there instead of being impatient and not wanting to wait so long.


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## O2.0

Daisy Doodle's parents said:


> Thanks for this, you are backing us up! (although ALL dogs are crossbreeds really - somewhere in their history?) There are reputable breeders out there - even for cross breeds. The health & welfare of the puppies is paramount - no matter the breed.
> one example is curtabemdoodles - we wish we had gone there instead of being impatient and not wanting to wait so long.


Yeah, um... nothing about this breeder says reputable. No mention of health testing, they seems to breed multiple litters continually, they claim bernerdoodles are hypoallergenic - they're not. And more hybrid vigor nonsense. 
Nope, not a reputable breeder at all. Sorry.

And again, please read the statement from the Berner parent club:
http://bmdca.org/club/mixedbreed.ph...lgvE_j9lsgl_McDdM4Qmh4wqXpJqERErFT6SntXHsMlEg
"Preservation Bernese Mountain Dog or Poodle breeders will not allow their dogs to be crossbred. Therefore, the dogs generally used to breed doodles are of unknown quality or heritage. A Bernese Mountain Dog should be sturdy and balanced. He should be strong, intelligent and agile. A Bernese Mountain Dog should be able to work all day, as per the breed standard. A reputable breeder will work to put titles on their breeding stock in conformation or working events. Those titles indicate that their dogs have met the breed standard and excelled in the conformation ring or at working events. Reputable breeders do BMDCA-recommended health and genetic testing prior to any breeding to make the optimal match and produce the best qualities of a Bernese Mountain Dog. The crossbred dogs can be prone to the genetic diseases of both breeds and offer none of the advantages that owning a purebred dog has to offer."


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## BlueJay

If she arrived with cataracts.... did you not see the puppy at all beforehand? Did she not have a vet check? Did you not check the parents were tested?

Dodgy breeders are absolutely rampant, but they wont stop until people stop buying from them. Surely it's on the potential puppy buyer to do proper research before handing any money over?(nevermind such a ludicrous amount!)
Ignorance isn't an excuse when all the information is out there and readily available for anyone that cares to look for it.

Also, what about this cross exactly would you recommend? Being that poodles and berners are very different dogs, and cross breeds can vary wildly in size, temperament, coat type, colour, behaviour and personality, even within the same litter. There's no standard for them.


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## simplysardonic

O2.0 said:


> Yeah, um... nothing about this breeder says reputable. No mention of health testing, they seems to breed multiple litters continually, they claim bernerdoodles are hypoallergenic - they're not. And more hybrid vigor nonsense.
> Nope, not a reputable breeder at all. Sorry.
> 
> And again, please read the statement from the Berner parent club:
> http://bmdca.org/club/mixedbreed.ph...lgvE_j9lsgl_McDdM4Qmh4wqXpJqERErFT6SntXHsMlEg
> "Preservation Bernese Mountain Dog or Poodle breeders will not allow their dogs to be crossbred. Therefore, the dogs generally used to breed doodles are of unknown quality or heritage. A Bernese Mountain Dog should be sturdy and balanced. He should be strong, intelligent and agile. A Bernese Mountain Dog should be able to work all day, as per the breed standard. A reputable breeder will work to put titles on their breeding stock in conformation or working events. Those titles indicate that their dogs have met the breed standard and excelled in the conformation ring or at working events. Reputable breeders do BMDCA-recommended health and genetic testing prior to any breeding to make the optimal match and produce the best qualities of a Bernese Mountain Dog. The crossbred dogs can be prone to the genetic diseases of both breeds and offer none of the advantages that owning a purebred dog has to offer."


They seem to be getting a few things right (using Puppy Culture, some health testing, an 'aftercare' service) & they have a nice flashy website with lots of happy dog photos, but that indicates nothing, a certain well known cockapoo/cavapoo volume breeder has the same & they've just had their licence revoked, at long last.

The stud dogs are health tested, but not hip or elbow scored, no mention of the bitches' health tests which is concerning, why would they not mention this?

Considering the eye watering range of prices (another red flag- why different pricing for their dogs?) they're charging they can certainly afford to do all tests required.

And what on earth is this? Never seen any breeder with this statement:



> ALL 'Curtabemdoodle' Goldendoodle and Ultimate doodle litter PRICES include VAT.
> 
> Bernedoodle litter prices are excluding VAT.


I wouldn't touch them with a bargepole I'm afraid.


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## O2.0

simplysardonic said:


> They seem to be getting a few things right (using Puppy Culture, some health testing, an 'aftercare' service) & they have a nice flashy website with lots of happy dog photos, but that indicates nothing, a certain well known cockapoo/cavapoo volume breeder has the same & they've just had their licence revoked, at long last.
> 
> The stud dogs are health tested, but not hip or elbow scored, no mention of the bitches' health tests which is concerning, why would they not mention this?
> 
> Considering the eye watering range of prices (another red flag- why different pricing for their dogs?) they're charging they can certainly afford to do all tests required.
> 
> And what on earth is this? Never seen any breeder with this statement:
> 
> I wouldn't touch them with a bargepole I'm afraid.


Yeah, I didn't look that carefully honestly. My quick peruse found no health testing, you would think they'd want it front and center.

Either way this place screams pup$forbuck$ to me and like you, wouldn't touch them with a bargepole either. And I certainly wouldn't pay thousands for one of their dogs, particularly since responsible, ethical breeders who are health testing and campaigning their dogs either in the working arena or breed ring or both don't even charge that much.

I don't know what VAT means either, I figured it was some British think I didn't know about. All I know of VAT is value added tax.


----------



## Siskin

Surely vat is not charged on dogs. Vat is charged on items, that require it, when the business reaches a certain turnover, I'm not sure what the limit is now @MilleD will probably know. Whether a dog would ever attracts vat seems weird to me, a dogs not like an item of furniture after all.


----------



## simplysardonic

Siskin said:


> Surely vat is not charged on dogs. Vat is charged on items, that require it, when the business reaches a certain turnover, I'm not sure what the limit is now @MilleD will probably know. Whether a dog would ever attracts vat seems weird to me, a dogs not like an item of furniture after all.


I don't think I've ever seen VAT added to any animal, on any breeder's website, regardless of whether they're a good or bad breeder, but there's a few links those of you that are tax savvy might understand better than me:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/animals-and-animal-food-notice-70115

https://www.bedrocktax.co.uk/vat-margin-scheme/

What I can gather is all non-food animals are eligible, excluding rabbits.

There's also a post on Champdogs forum if anyone's interested (don't think I can post here as it's linking to another forum), apparently there's a threshold of over 56,000 a year before a breeder needs to be VAT registered, but the thread is from 2004 so may well be inaccurate now.

Either way I can't understand why one of their 'breeds' is eligible for VAT & the other isn't.


----------



## Blitz

Livestock do not have VAT on them. What on earth is the curte whatever doodle. Do not understand that. Also cannot imagine why it would be £10,000 for a cataract operation. There is no need to do both eyes, just do the blind eye and around £2000 should easily cover it. As for £1000 a year for insurance, why would that be. The eyes will be excluded anyway so why would the premium be upped unless of course the insurance company has had to pay out a great deal in the past for dogs bred by this 'breeder'. OP, you have not bought a breed , you have bought a cross breed or mongrel, mixing two totally incompatible breeds. Good luck with the bad hips in the future and the frustrated poodle inside a bernese body or vice verse


----------



## simplysardonic

Blitz said:


> Livestock do not have VAT on them. *What on earth is the curte whatever doodle.* Do not understand that. Also cannot imagine why it would be £10,000 for a cataract operation. There is no need to do both eyes, just do the blind eye and around £2000 should easily cover it. As for £1000 a year for insurance, why would that be. The eyes will be excluded anyway so why would the premium be upped unless of course the insurance company has had to pay out a great deal in the past for dogs bred by this 'breeder'. OP, you have not bought a breed , you have bought a cross breed or mongrel, mixing two totally incompatible breeds. Good luck with the bad hips in the future and the frustrated poodle inside a bernese body or vice verse


I took it to be their affix, if breeders of crosses can be said to have one.


----------



## Siskin

Daisy Doodle's parents said:


> Thanks for this, you are backing us up! (although ALL dogs are crossbreeds really - somewhere in their history?) There are reputable breeders out there - even for cross breeds. The health & welfare of the puppies is paramount - no matter the breed.
> one example is curtabemdoodles - we wish we had gone there instead of being impatient and not wanting to wait so long.


The big difference between today's crossbred dogs and dogs that were crossed back in the day creating many of the breeds seen today is that the cross breeding was done for a reason, not as a way of making loads of money by randomly breeding any old breed of dog with another, giving it a cute name and spinning lies.


----------



## O2.0

Siskin said:


> The big difference between today's crossbred dogs and dogs that were crossed back in the day creating many of the breeds seen today is that the cross breeding was done for a reason, not as a way of making loads of money by randomly breeding any old breed of dog with another, giving it a cute name and spinning lies.


And to add. In the simplest terms, a purebred dog is one that breeds pure. All puppies in the litter are uniform, all have a predictable set of traits, all look like the parents, and the breed.

When crossing breeds, you end up with a litter of puppies where some look like one breed, some look like the other breed, some look like a good mix of both, some look nothing like either.

When breeds were originally developed, there was purpose. I want to create a dog with a waterproof coat and good retrieving instincts. You cross two dogs, meet your criteria and, usually back in the day, cull the rest. Then you breed the ones who have the traits you want to other dogs who have the traits you want, continue to cull and breed until you get a uniform litter of puppies and now you have a purebred dog.

So no, @Daisy Doodle's parents not all breeds used to be crossbreds. Dogs were crossed in the development of breeds, but they didn't stop there. The goal was to create a uniform breed.

These breeders crossing first generation crosses are just cashing in on the -doodle craze, they're not doing anything purposeful other than trying to make a buck.


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## Sairy

Wow, just been on Curtabemdoodles website and it seems they have 7 litters of "goldendoodles" and 4 litters of "bernadoodles" planned for this year. Their prices range from £3,600-£6,600 per pup, so that's quite a haul for the breeder. If each bitch has 6 pups then that's 66 pups in total. Taking the average price then that's an income of £336,600!!!:Jawdrop


----------



## simplysardonic

Sairy said:


> Wow, just been on Curtabemdoodles website and it seems they have 7 litters of "goldendoodles" and 4 litters of "bernadoodles" planned for this year. Their prices range from £3,600-£6,600 per pup, so that's quite a haul for the breeder. If each bitch has 6 pups then that's 66 pups in total. Taking the average price then that's an income of £336,600!!!:Jawdrop


Absolutely appalling.

Anyone who supports or knowingly buys from these sorts of canine factory farms aren't dog lovers.


----------



## Sairy

Just saw this also


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## Rafa

This whole 'Doodle' craze is madness now, IMO.

People paying eye watering sums of money for poorly bred crossbreeds. It's crazy.

Has the World really gone mad?

If you want to buy a puppy, do your research and choose the breed that suits you and your lifestyle, being very aware of whether or not you can fulfil the needs of the dog.

Go to someone who breeds working dogs or dogs for the showring, with their affix on them. In other words, those who take pride in producing genuine, typy and healthy pups, fit for purpose, and who will offer support to you for the future.

Here we have an example of someone who, at least, has sufficient intelligence to have worked out that, the more pups they produce, the more money they make, not someone who breeds to produce the best, healthy pups and who is passionate about their chosen breed.

It's actually depressing.


----------



## Kim T Saunders

Vicky Duggan said:


> Hi, we are looking to buy a Bernedoodle puppy in the UK but are really struggling to find any!?
> Is anybody about to point us in the right direction?
> Thanks


We have just put a deposit on our new baby boy Bernedoodle he will be with us on mothers day we got him from skybears and I can't wait to get him home good luck have a look at their facebook page.


----------



## Kim T Saunders

Linda Weasel said:


> I had a friend who bred Bernese and I have to say that, despite the best efforts of responsible breeders, they really must be one of the unhealthiest of breeds. And a very short life-span compared to a lot of other dogs; I don't know if this is a 'giant breed' thing or not.
> 
> So if the good breeders can't get it right, what hope for somebody who thinks it's ok to cross it with something as diametrically opposite as a poodle??


Hence the cross breed it will double the life span of the Bernie and they are the most amazing dogs.


----------



## Rafa

Kim T Saunders said:


> Hence the cross breed it will double the life span of the Bernie and they are the most amazing dogs.


If you really believe this, you're clueless.

You really believe this dog will make twenty years old because it's a mongrel?

Oh dear me.


----------



## Kim T Saunders

Daisy Doodle's parents said:


> *Do not buy from Ceri Bennett in Aberystwyth.*
> We bought our gorgeous F1 bernedoodle, Daisy Doodle for £3000 in August 2020. She arrived with bi-lateral cateracts - blind in one eye, restricted sight in the other - and had not had her full vaccinations. Due to the eye condition her pet insurance will be £1000 per year for her lifetime. Her surgery (thank goodness it is possible to improve her sight) will cost up to £10,000.
> We have been in a constant legal battle to recover part of the cost of buying her, now resolved after a CCJ was made against the breeder.
> She is a wonderful part of our family and we would recommend the breed - but find a reputable and licensed breeder!


We have just put a deposit on a Bernedoodle from Skybears we are all really excited and cant wait for him to arrive, we have a standard poodle of show stock her father and grandfather were crufts champions but have had nothing but problems with huge vet bills we also had the same with an excellent pedigree Labrador, infact the only dogs we have never had any physical concerns with was our bichon westie cross she lived to nearly 17 years without an ailment, and a cross border collie who also lived to be 16 years old, this is why we are getting a cross breed, I know that they live longer and are healthier than pure breeds, they do not get double the problems the problems are diluted and anyone can argue with me all they like I know what I know because I have the experience of both sides. I hope your girl recovers and I hope that our Bernedoodle breeder is a good one they are registered.


----------



## Blacky90

Kim T Saunders said:


> I know that they live longer and are healthier than pure breeds, they do not get double the problems the problems are diluted


This is false


----------



## Kim T Saunders

Rafa said:


> If you really believe this, you're clueless.
> 
> You really believe this dog will make twenty years old because it's a mongrel?
> 
> Oh dear me.


The Bernese mountain dog life span is 6 to 8 years the bernedoodle is 12 to 18 so no I dont expect it will live to 20 years because double 6 is 12 and double 8 is 16 so maybe live to more than double eh.


----------



## Kim T Saunders

Blacky90 said:


> This is false


I know this is not false I have had both show breed standard poodles and labradors who have all had health problems but non from the cross breeds who have all lived longer and healthier lives.


----------



## Blacky90

You are drawing that conclusion from four dogs?


----------



## Kim T Saunders

O2.0 said:


> Sorry but no. Read the link I posted, oh heck, never mind, I'll just C/P from that link:
> "Preservation Bernese Mountain Dog or Poodle breeders will not allow their dogs to be crossbred. Therefore, the dogs generally used to breed doodles are of unknown quality or heritage."
> Translation: no one who owns a well bred Berner or Poodle would ever in a million years allow their dog to be bred for this mix. Therefore the dogs you're starting with will already be the ones from less than good breeders. Not shown, not evaluated by outside parties, not health tested (Berners are a breed rife with health problems). You can't create great genetics from poor genetics any more than you can create a chocolate cake using chicory instead of chocolate.
> To put it more bluntly, breed shit you get shit. It doesn't get better just 'cause you crossed it with something else.
> 
> I have nothing against purpose bred cross-breeds that start with excellent genetics. Those do exist, but they're not BernerXpoodles, they're sport dogs and working dogs etc.
> And honestly, there are some fabulous mutts and mixes in rescue, if you don't care what kind of genetics you're starting with, just get a mutt from the pound. I have one and he's awesome. Just don't line an unscrupulous breeder's pockets based on a lie and false advertising.
> 
> Genetics doesn't work that way. Remember Punnett squares from biology class? Remember dominant/recessive genes? You breed two dogs, some may look like mom, some may look like dad, some may look like neither.
> A dog's coat (and more importantly, temperament) will be based on multiple genetic factors. There is no 50/50 anything.


There are very few excellent genetics when it comes to the Standard Poodle at least I know that fact most poodle's are the result of intense inbreeding and while looking for the perfect specimen the poor poodle has suffered. My girl is bred from champion show stock and I would breed her with a Bernese Mountain dog, and not for the money but for the dilution of the genetic bottlenecks and inbreeding which cause the suffering of these oh so perfect animals.


----------



## Kim T Saunders

Blacky90 said:


> You are drawing that conclusion from four dogs?


no i am not drawing that from four dogs these are just examples I am not going to list the over 70 dogs me and my family have had over the years and yes I have a large family.


----------



## Sairy

Kim T Saunders said:


> we have a standard poodle of show stock her father and grandfather were crufts champions but have had nothing but problems with huge vet bills





Kim T Saunders said:


> My girl is bred from champion show stock and I would breed her with a Bernese Mountain dog, and not for the money but for the dilution of the genetic bottlenecks and inbreeding which cause the suffering of these oh so perfect animals.


So you would breed from your bitch who you have apparently had to pay loads in vet bills for due to health issues? You think that crossing her with another breed will magic away those health issues, seriously? Not only that, but you would breed her with a stud who is likely to be a fair bit larger than her? I'm sorry, but these statements in themselves show just how little you know.


----------



## Sairy

Kim T Saunders said:


> I hope that our Bernedoodle breeder is a good one they are registered.


Being council registered does not mean that they are a good breeder. It simply means that they have to be registered because they produce a certain amount of litters per year. I'm unsure why you say you "hope" they are a good breeder. Would you not satisfy yourself that they are an excellent breeder before putting a deposit down on a pup?

I've taken a look at Skybears. There isn't a huge amount of information available, but I can see that they are producing at least three different crosses: "bernadoodles", "newfiepoos" and "newfadoors". They do seem to be hip and elbow scoring their breeding stock, which is something although there is no mention of any other health tests. I do find it alarming that they are breeding labrador bitches newfoundlands - a huge size difference putting their bitches at risk.


----------



## MilleD

Siskin said:


> Surely vat is not charged on dogs. Vat is charged on items, that require it, when the business reaches a certain turnover, I'm not sure what the limit is now @MilleD will probably know. Whether a dog would ever attracts vat seems weird to me, a dogs not like an item of furniture after all.


£85k


----------



## Blitz

MilleD said:


> £85k


There would still not be VAT charged on dogs. I assume they are zero rated so VAT could be claimed back on expenses and would be charged on any other services the kennels offered.


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## Blitz

oh ok, so I am wrong. This is very interesting, never heard of VAT being charged on horses either.

From gov.uk

*2.3 Animals that are standard-rated*
Examples of standard-rated animals are:


bumble bees
ornamental birds and fish
racing pigeons
horses
*2.4 Animals that produce edible meat but are standard-rated*
Some unusual meat, for example kangaroo steak, may be sold as food in the shops, but kangaroos are not animals of a kind generally reared for food in the UK. Live kangaroos, therefore, are standard-rated.

*2.5 Pets*
Animals that will be kept as pets can be zero-rated only if they are of a kind that is normally used for human food production. For example, rabbits, other than ornamental breeds, are always zero-rated.


----------



## MilleD

Blitz said:


> There would still not be VAT charged on dogs. I assume they are zero rated so VAT could be claimed back on expenses and would be charged on any other services the kennels offered.


I don't think that is true. It seems that animals are only zero rated it they are normally considered livestock. I'm not a VAT expert though.


----------



## MilleD

Blitz said:


> oh ok, so I am wrong. This is very interesting, never heard of VAT being charged on horses either.
> 
> From gov.uk
> 
> *2.3 Animals that are standard-rated*
> Examples of standard-rated animals are:
> 
> 
> bumble bees
> ornamental birds and fish
> racing pigeons
> horses
> *2.4 Animals that produce edible meat but are standard-rated*
> Some unusual meat, for example kangaroo steak, may be sold as food in the shops, but kangaroos are not animals of a kind generally reared for food in the UK. Live kangaroos, therefore, are standard-rated.
> 
> *2.5 Pets*
> Animals that will be kept as pets can be zero-rated only if they are of a kind that is normally used for human food production. For example, rabbits, other than ornamental breeds, are always zero-rated.


Sorry, didn't see this post before I answered.


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## Siskin

Seems there was a court case

https://www.rossmartin.co.uk/vat/vat-cases/2768-puppies-are-not-second-hand-goods-for-vat

I had no idea that puppies attracted vat.


----------



## Sarah H

This thread is frying my brain. 
I just can't believe that people are so naive when buying designer crossbreeds. I understand wanting a dog that doesn't shed, but then go and buy a pedigree where you can be sure that they will have the desired coat, not a cross where you have only a random chance (well not random, but the genetics of inheritance for coat is very complicated) of getting the desired coat. Not to mention mixing temperament and drives.
And if you like a breed but find that they are not as healthy as you want, then find breeders who are trying to do something about it and support them, or get one from rescue or try a similar breed type. There are no unique breeds, they have all been mixed and matched at some point, you will find one that is similar even if you have to search a while. 
It's stupid to say that you won't buy a pedigree because you have had issues, so are getting a cross of THAT SAME BREED to another completely different breed with its own inherited health issues. Especially when the breed club is so against outcrossing to create yet another poodle cross.


----------



## BlueJay

Kim T Saunders said:


> this is why we are getting a cross breed, I know that they live longer and are healthier than pure breeds, they do not get double the problems the problems are diluted


So if *both* poodles and berners as breeds suffer from

Von Willebrands disease
Degenerative myleopathy
Progressive retinal atrophy
Bloat
Hip dysplasia
Epilepsy 
As well as cancers being absolutely rampant in berners and not linked to one single gene, how exactly is breeding the two "diluting" any issues?

Outcrossing can be an fantastic thing and has the potential to save many breeds when done properly... but breeding drastically different dogs with no goal and no intention other than cashing in on the doodle craze absolutely isn't how it's done...


----------



## SusieRainbow

Sarah H said:


> This thread is frying my brain.


Hear hear!
I don't think one of the 'pro Doodle' brigade has read or understood a word of the advice or reasoning given!:Banghead


----------



## O2.0

Kim T Saunders said:


> this is why we are getting a cross breed, I know that they live longer and are healthier than pure breeds, they do not get double the problems the problems are diluted and anyone can argue with me all they like I know what I know because I have the experience of both sides.


I think you need to learn a little more about genetics. Genes don't get diluted. They're either there or not there. 
Proper health testing via xrays, heart exams, eye exams, blood tests and more reveal the diseases we know how to test for. If those diseases are present, you don't breed that dog. 
Proper pedigree research to learn lines, what dogs died of, how long they lived, what their offspring did is how you reveal issues we don't know how to test for. 
You don't magically make a healthy pup from unhealthy parents from unhealthy lines. There is no diluting genes. There is responsible, ethical breeding and there is uninformed, ignorant, greedy, stupid breeding that produces dogs doomed to a lifetime of issues.

There is also temperament and drives to consider. 
Mixing two dogs of such different temperaments, different purposes, and different drives is going to produce a very conflicted, confused dog who may have the mind of a poodle trapped in the body of a berner, or vice versa. It's frankly cruel.


----------



## simplysardonic

I find the rampant snobbery of many of the doodle fraternity quite ironic, not all of them, but the ones who literally fill their homes with 'I love my doodle' throws, buy their dog a multitude of toys, feed the best food, but don't bother to groom them.

They denigrate purebred dogs, call purebred dog owners 'haters' (seriously, grow up, it's not a playground), they generalise that all purebred dogs are sickly, short lived & deformed, they toss phrases like 'hypoallergenic', 'non shedding' or 'hybrid vigour' about like they know what they mean.

They believe that because they did 5 minutes research in the internet using whatever dubious websites get thrown to the top on a search they've got some truly special 'breed', so special, in fact, that Kennel Clubs the world over don't recognise them & no breed standard exists.

So they gather with more likeminded people on Facbook groups to brag about what they paid for their dogs, publicly name & shame all the 'nasty groomers' who've had to clip off their dog's stinking, matted coats, or complain that little Marley got scared by an evil bigger dog (inevitably a staffie, to them, any dog that's not a doodle seems to be a staffie) at the park & hurt his neck by running all the way to the end of his retractable lead.

Of course one thing they never seem to comprehend is that without the purebred dogs they dislike so much their precious doodles wouldn't even exist, but I suppose the parents don't matter, they can stay in some old shed pumping out puppies for the joy of others.

Yes, I am making gross generalisations, yes, I am having a rant, no, I don't care if it offends, I find grand scale animal expoitation & the abundant misinformation offensive.

I'm so tired, so very tired, of people floating around in some pink & fluffy rainbow unicorn land where the world seemingly revovles around them & their wants.


----------



## Rottsmum

I think that the problem is that many people do not understand that a something "doodle", "poo" or "dor" is in fact a crossbreed and not a breed in itself which just seems to have been echoed in another breeding thread on here. I kind of sit on the fence on the whole crossbreed thing tbh. I definitely do not advocate the designer dog thing or chucking a poodle with anything and calling it a stupid name but I can see how some breeds could potentially benefit from being outcrossed to another breed.

Example: There are two pugs that live near me and you can hear the poor things gasping for breathe on walks long before you see them, especially when it's hot. My sister has a Jug (Jack Russell x Pug) which she bought as a pup 14 years ago. Now, I'm not saying that this is an ideal cross in terms of personality or drives but she is a little pug sized dog with a decent length nose who can actually breathe properly and is very healthy, more so than alot of the Pugs that I have encountered. 

On the other hand, a friend bought a "Springador" the year before last and at that time paid about £750 for what is essentially a mongrel. She was a bit offended when I pointed this out but upon viewing a photo of the litter some look like Springers, some like Labs and some (hers) a mix of the two. I don't really understand the point or purpose of this particular cross why not just get a Lab or a Springer? 

I suppose what I am saying is that if breeds are crossed (specifically thinking of some of the breeds with more extreme features) with another breed to dilute the extremity of that feature and therefore result in a healthier offspring, (albeit a crossbreed) then fine as long as relevant health tests for for both breeds have been carried out on the parents and the pup is not sold with a stupid name and a massive price tag.


----------



## simplysardonic

Rottsmum said:


> I think that the problem is that many people do not understand that a something "doodle", "poo" or "dor" is in fact a crossbreed and not a breed in itself which just seems to have been echoed in another breeding thread on here. I kind of sit on the fence on the whole crossbreed thing tbh. I definitely do not advocate the designer dog thing or chucking a poodle with anything and calling it a stupid name but I can see how some breeds could potentially benefit from being outcrossed to another breed.
> 
> Example: There are two pugs that live near me and you can hear the poor things gasping for breathe on walks long before you see them, especially when it's hot. My sister has a Jug (Jack Russell x Pug) which she bought as a pup 14 years ago. Now, I'm not saying that this is an ideal cross in terms of personality or drives but she is a little pug sized dog with a decent length nose who can actually breathe properly and is very healthy, more so than alot of the Pugs that I have encountered.
> 
> On the other hand, a friend bought a "Springador" the year before last and at that time paid about £750 for what is essentially a mongrel. She was a bit offended when I pointed this out but upon viewing a photo of the litter some look like Springers, some like Labs and some (hers) a mix of the two. I don't really understand the point or purpose of this particular cross why not just get a Lab or a Springer?
> 
> I suppose what I am saying is that if breeds are crossed (specifically thinking of some of the breeds with more extreme features) with another breed to dilute the extremity of that feature and therefore result in a healthier offspring, (albeit a crossbreed) then fine as long as relevant health tests for for both breeds have been carried out on the parents and the pup is not sold with a stupid name and a massive price tag.


I'm not against crosses, having 3 myself, or even the breeding of them if as much care goes into it as the best purebred breeders.

And I completely agree that some extreme breeds are generally made healthier when mixed with a complementary, less extreme breed.

I also think in order to save some breeds a good outcross programme is needed to increase genetic diversity & try to overcome the health issues, but it needs to be done with consideration & thorough record keeping, not just settling on the most convenient poodle.


----------



## SusieRainbow

simplysardonic said:


> I'm not against crosses, having 3 myself, or even the breeding of them if as much care goes into it as the best purebred breeders.
> 
> And I completely agree that some extreme breeds are generally made healthier when mixed with a complementary, less extreme breed.
> 
> I also think in order to save some breeds a good outcross programme is needed to increase genetic diversity & try to overcome the health issues, but it needs to be done with consideration & thorough record keeping, not just settling on the most convenient poodle.


If 'Bernedoodle' breeders were asked to justify the creation of this cross breed (like Jack RussellxPug) how would they ? It seems such a bizarre and pointless crossing. 
Not even particularly attractive which some crosses are to be fair.


----------



## simplysardonic

SusieRainbow said:


> If 'Bernedoodle' breeders were asked to justify the creation of this cross breed (like Jack RussellxPug) how would they ? It seems such a bizarre and pointless crossing.
> Not even particularly attractive which some crosses are to be fair.


If they were being honest, I think they'd say to make money, which they certainly seem to be & create a doodle with the markings of a Bernese, which of course may or may not happen.

They might also say they're trying to improve the health & life expectancy of the Bernese, but I doubt they'll have any real idea what they're doing, as there are many other, more suitable breeds to use in an outcross.


----------



## SusieRainbow

simplysardonic said:


> If they were being honest, I think they'd say to make money, which they certainly seem to be & create a doodle with the markings of a Bernese, which of course may or may not happen.
> 
> They might also say they're trying to improve the health & life expectancy of the Bernese, but I doubt they'll have any real idea what they're doing, as there are many other, more suitable breeds to use in an outcross.


Yes, I appreciate the mony-making aspect but doubt if many breeders of these puppies would admit to that being their motive. Someone said it would 'double the life expectancy of a Bernese' whch we know is absolute rubbish. It's ths old 'hybrid vigour'crap again isn't it, but I would expect the big breeders to come up with something a bit more imaginitive.


----------



## O2.0

simplysardonic said:


> I don't care if it offends,


Sometimes being offended is just that little voice in your head trying to make you see reason.



Rottsmum said:


> Example: There are two pugs that live near me and you can hear the poor things gasping for breathe on walks long before you see them, especially when it's hot. My sister has a Jug (Jack Russell x Pug) which she bought as a pup 14 years ago. Now, I'm not saying that this is an ideal cross in terms of personality or drives but she is a little pug sized dog with a decent length nose who can actually breathe properly and is very healthy, more so than alot of the Pugs that I have encountered.
> 
> On the other hand, a friend bought a "Springador" the year before last and at that time paid about £750 for what is essentially a mongrel. She was a bit offended when I pointed this out but upon viewing a photo of the litter some look like Springers, some like Labs and some (hers) a mix of the two. I don't really understand the point or purpose of this particular cross why not just get a Lab or a Springer?


See to me a labXspringer makes so much more sense than a pugXJRT.

At least the labXspringer have similar drives, energy levels, and instincts. I can see the purpose in a springerXlab.

If the only reason to breed a JRT to a pug is to lengthen the nose, why not choose a more compatible breed to get a longer pug nose? JRTs are working dogs with working drives, combining that with a sedentary breed with very little drive can make for a very confused, conflicted dog. The only reason people use JRTs is because they are ubiquitous. It's not about making a healthier dog, it's about *pretending* to make a healthier dog with whatever is easily available. If breeders really wanted to improve the breed, they would be breeding longer noses in to their lines, not doing F1 pugXJRT ad nauseum.

Unpopular opinion alert.... if the dog is so structurally unsound that they can't breathe, should be even be producing these dogs at all? 
I blame the fickle public for a lot of it. The number of people who find smooshed faces appealing, who think the snorting is cute, who deliberately want a physically deformed dog who can't breathe or move - cause let's face it, a dog with low energy needs is an 'easy' dog right? It angers me.

Dogs should be energetic, want to run and play and not collapse after running around the sofa twice. So many people like the idea of a dog, but don't want the reality of a *real* dog who bugs you to walk him/her at 6am every morning and has energy and enthusiasm. 
The number of times I hear what a "good" dog a dog is because they lay around all day and don't do anything. Why even get a dog? Get a garden gnome that's motion activated and put it in your living room. 
Okay, sorry, /rant.


----------



## OrientalSlave

Kim T Saunders said:


> Hence the cross breed it will double the life span of the Bernie and they are the most amazing dogs.


Hasn't it occurred to you that it could produce puppies with the health problems of both BMDs and Poodles?

Like the alleged conversation between George Bernard Shaw and Sarah Bernhardt. She wanted his child, she envisaged it having her looks and his brains. He pointed out it could have his looks & her brains.

I think someone, somewhere spun you a line and you swallowed it along with the hook & sinker.


----------



## Blitz

There was a vet being interviewed a year or so ago. She specialised in surgery on pugs etc and said she has to do it on a great deal of pug crosses with longer noses as the problem is genetic so regardless of the length of nose can still have breathing problems.


----------



## SusieRainbow

I have to respond to this paragraph !
Nothing to do with cross breeding but the 'sedentary ' breeds have a place as companion dogs surely. My 2 pure breed dogs who are quite contraversial in terms of conformation, are couch potatoes. They love a walk when it's on offer and can walk miles without any adverse signs but are equally happy to slob around for hours. 
I do feel guilty because I'm physically incapable of walking them both, a situaton that has arisen in the last few months. Fortunately my beloved OH s only too happy to walk them when he can but that isn't every day.
There are many owners in my situation, surely we are not to be denied dog ownership or criticised because of our abilities f the dogs are happy ?
I just felt your post was rather generalised and possibly ageist.


O2.0 said:


> Dogs should be energetic, want to run and play and not collapse after running around the sofa twice. So many people like the idea of a dog, but don't want the reality of a *real* dog who bugs you to walk him/her at 6am every morning and has energy and enthusiasm.
> The number of times I hear what a "good" dog a dog is because they lay around all day and don't do anything. Why even get a dog? Get a garden gnome that's motion activated and put it in your living room.
> Okay, sorry, /rant.


----------



## simplysardonic

SusieRainbow said:


> Yes, I appreciate the mony-making aspect but doubt if many breeders of these puppies *would admit to that being their motive*. Someone said it would 'double the life expectancy of a Bernese' whch we know is absolute rubbish. It's ths old 'hybrid vigour'crap again isn't it, but I would expect the big breeders to come up with something a bit more imaginitive.


I imagine if many of these breeders were completely transparent about their reasons for breeding, their dogs' health & the conditions the parent dogs are kept in most of their buyers with an iota of a conscience would run a mile, puppy brain or no puppy brain.



Blitz said:


> There was a vet being interviewed a year or so ago. She specialised in surgery on pugs etc and said she has to do it on a great deal of pug crosses with longer noses as the problem is genetic so regardless of the length of nose can still have breathing problems.


Yes, there's a whole lot of stuff going on, not just short muzzles, & there's no guarantee that the pups won't be born without issues, I used to see a puggle type on my bus journey to work, the dog had a tiny flat pug sized head on a beagle sized body, coupled with being horribly obese this poor little dog waddling along was the strangest looking thing!


----------



## O2.0

SusieRainbow said:


> I have to respond to this paragraph !
> Nothing to do with cross breeding but the 'sedentary ' breeds have a place as companion dogs surely. My 2 pure breed dogs who are quite contraversial in terms of conformation, are couch potatoes. They love a walk when it's on offer and can walk miles without any adverse signs but are equally happy to slob around for hours.
> I do feel guilty because I'm physically incapable of walking them both, a situaton that has arisen in the last few months. Fortunately my beloved OH s only too happy to walk them when he can but that isn't every day.
> There are many owners in my situation, surely we are not to be denied dog ownership or criticised because of our abilities f the dogs are happy ?
> I just felt your post was rather generalised and possibly ageist.


I think you misunderstood my post.

I don't have any issue with sedentary breeds nor did I say that in my post. I have an issue with a dog being winded after running twice around the sofa - which I did say in my post. That's a problem. That's beyond sedentary. 
And people are purposefully producing dogs who can't run and play. 
Your dogs are happy to walk as you say. They can be energetic and enthusiastic if they choose to be. They're not physically incapable of it and you didn't choose them because you wouldn't have to walk them.

I'm not criticizing owners abilities. I'm criticizing owners' choice to get a physically deformed dog because those deformities will mean less work for the owner. Also because they think it's cute or attractive, or whatever.


----------



## SusieRainbow

O2.0 said:


> I think you misunderstood my post.
> 
> I don't have any issue with sedentary breeds nor did I say that in my post. I have an issue with a dog being winded after running twice around the sofa - which I did say in my post. That's a problem. That's beyond sedentary.
> And people are purposefully producing dogs who can't run and play.
> Your dogs are happy to walk as you say. They can be energetic and enthusiastic if they choose to be. They're not physically incapable of it and you didn't choose them because you wouldn't have to walk them.
> 
> I'm not criticizing owners abilities. I'm criticizing owners' choice to get a physically deformed dog because those deformities will mean less work for the owner. Also because they think it's cute or attractive, or whatever.


Understood. Sorry, I'm feeling rather senstive about it all at the moment.


----------



## lorilu

simplysardonic said:


> I find the rampant snobbery of many of the doodle fraternity quite ironic, not all of them, but the ones who literally fill their homes with 'I love my doodle' throws, buy their dog a multitude of toys, feed the best food, but don't bother to groom them.
> 
> They denigrate purebred dogs, call purebred dog owners 'haters' (seriously, grow up, it's not a playground), they generalise that all purebred dogs are sickly, short lived & deformed, they toss phrases like 'hypoallergenic', 'non shedding' or 'hybrid vigour' about like they know what they mean.
> 
> They believe that because they did 5 minutes research in the internet using whatever dubious websites get thrown to the top on a search they've got some truly special 'breed', so special, in fact, that Kennel Clubs the world over don't recognise them & no breed standard exists.
> 
> So they gather with more likeminded people on Facbook groups to brag about what they paid for their dogs, publicly name & shame all the 'nasty groomers' who've had to clip off their dog's stinking, matted coats, or complain that little Marley got scared by an evil bigger dog (inevitably a staffie, to them, any dog that's not a doodle seems to be a staffie) at the park & hurt his neck by running all the way to the end of his retractable lead.
> 
> Of course one thing they never seem to comprehend is that without the purebred dogs they dislike so much their precious doodles wouldn't even exist, but I suppose the parents don't matter, they can stay in some old shed pumping out puppies for the joy of others.
> 
> Yes, I am making gross generalisations, yes, I am having a rant, no, I don't care if it offends, I find grand scale animal expoitation & the abundant misinformation offensive.
> 
> I'm so tired, so very tired, of people floating around in some pink & fluffy rainbow unicorn land where the world seemingly revovles around them & their wants.


Bears repeating. My sentiments exactly. Thank you.

And both at the top and the bottom of this page is an ad for "mini berndoodle pups for sale".


----------



## Rottsmum

O2.0 said:


> See to me a labXspringer makes so much more sense than a pugXJRT.
> 
> At least the labXspringer have similar drives, energy levels, and instincts. I can see the purpose in a springerXlab.
> 
> If the only reason to breed a JRT to a pug is to lengthen the nose, why not choose a more compatible breed to get a longer pug nose? JRTs are working dogs with working drives, combining that with a sedentary breed with very little drive can make for a very confused, conflicted dog. The only reason people use JRTs is because they are ubiquitous. It's not about making a healthier dog, it's about *pretending* to make a healthier dog with whatever is easily available. If breeders really wanted to improve the breed, they would be breeding longer noses in to their lines, not doing F1 pugXJRT ad nauseum.
> 
> Unpopular opinion alert.... if the dog is so structurally unsound that they can't breathe, should be even be producing these dogs at all?
> I blame the fickle public for a lot of it. The number of people who find smooshed faces appealing, who think the snorting is cute, who deliberately want a physically deformed dog who can't breathe or move - cause let's face it, a dog with low energy needs is an 'easy' dog right? It angers me.


Totally agree with you and I think in the case of my sisters Jug it was an accidental mating between someone's family pets, not a "designer dog" thing, I know she didn't pay much for her, but the point that I was making is that in that particular case, breeding a Pug with a longer nosed breed was beneficial for the offspring.

The smoosh face on some braccy breeds that many people find so appealing is deplorable and as you quite rightly say, these dogs are pretty inactive because the poor things can't get enough oxygen and it's rampant, we're even starting to see it Rotts, some of whom are being (poorly) bred with an even shorter snout and a blockier head because that's what people think that they should look like! It angers me too and these people SHOULD NOT be breeding.

Re the Springador, I totally get that cross if it's done for a purpose like sporting/competing or working to make a higher drive, higher energy dog, but not just for a family pet when the majority of families could just not keep up with the energy level of the dog. The only one that will suffer will be the dog :-(.

Re the Poodle crosses I was asked years ago by the owner of a Standard Poodle bitch if I would consider letting my dog be used as a stud. My dog was a Rottweiler. I obviously said NO and got my boy castrated not so long afterwards because we were approached so many times by different people with different breeds. Turns out this particular cross exists as well - a Rottle or RottiePoo apparently FFS!


----------



## Sarah H

simplysardonic said:


> Yes, there's a whole lot of stuff going on, not just short muzzles, & there's no guarantee that the pups won't be born without issues, I used to see a puggle type on my bus journey to work, the dog had a tiny flat pug sized head on a beagle sized body, coupled with being horribly obese this poor little dog waddling along was the strangest looking thing!


OMD that reminds me of that Pooch Perfect programme. It was a couple of episodes ago, but they were doing a 'guess the crossbreed' section. In came what looked like a pug's head on a fat lab's body. It was actually a whippet x pug but literally looked like someone had stuck a pug and a fat whippet together and got the bad bits of both!
I'll have to see if I can find a photo it really made me laugh and think about what people say about crossing breeds to try and eliminate extreme looks - in this case it didn't work at all and you got a cartoon!

EDIT: found it! Actually made me LOL looking at it again. Poor dog it just looks so out of proportion, not to mention overweight!


----------



## simplysardonic

SusieRainbow said:


> Understood. Sorry, I'm feeling rather senstive about it all at the moment.


Hope you're OK, I think what was trying to be put across was the difference between an adaptable dog breed (Vanya for example) that is happy with varying degrees of exercise & will settle without issue, which IMO is different to one that literally can do barely anything a dog does naturally because they are left physically exhausted just by existing. The 'funny' pictures of brachy breeds sleeping upright or with a toy in their mouth just to keep their airways open are a case in point.


----------



## Siskin

Sarah H said:


> OMD that reminds me of that Pooch Perfect programme. It was a couple of episodes ago, but they were doing a 'guess the crossbreed' section. In came what looked like a pug's head on a fat lab's body. It was actually a whippet x pug but literally looked like someone had stuck a pug and a fat whippet together and got the bad bits of both!
> I'll have to see if I can find a photo it really made me laugh and think about what people say about crossing breeds to try and eliminate extreme looks - in this case it didn't work at all and you got a cartoon!
> 
> EDIT: found it! Actually made me LOL looking at it again. Poor dog it just looks so out of proportion, not to mention overweight!


That is one weird looking dog


----------



## O2.0

simplysardonic said:


> Hope you're OK, I think what was trying to be put across was the difference between an adaptable dog breed (Vanya for example) that is happy with varying degrees of exercise & will settle without issue, which IMO is different to one that literally can do barely anything a dog does naturally because they are left physically exhausted just by existing. The 'funny' pictures of brachy breeds sleeping upright or with a toy in their mouth just to keep their airways open are a case in point.


Yes, this exactly. I see so many posts on instagram and FB that are labeled cute and lovable that basically shows a deformed dog suffering. Nothing about that is cute 



Siskin said:


> That is one weird looking dog


I look at Penny sometimes and think she looks like she's made up of discarded dog parts. She is funny looking - but she is functional. She is athletic, she's super fast for such a little dog, she's agile and hardy. Not only can she jump and run about, she can crash and get right back up and shake it off. She can go for miles, take a nap and is ready to go again.

Obviously she will never be bred, and I'm not advocating breeding funny looking dogs, but there is funny looking and there is can't function even if it's pretty (or cute). To me not being able to function is far worse.


----------



## simplysardonic

Sarah H said:


> EDIT: found it! Actually made me LOL looking at it again. Poor dog it just looks so out of proportion, not to mention overweight!


Yep, that was pretty much like what the one I used to see looked like, except he had a completely flat face. I wonder if this little dog would look less out of proportion if he were slimmer.


----------



## simplysardonic

O2.0 said:


> I look at Penny sometimes and think she looks like she's made up of discarded dog parts. She is funny looking - but she is functional. She is athletic, she's super fast for such a little dog, she's agile and hardy. Not only can she jump and run about, she can crash and get right back up and shake it off. She can go for miles, take a nap and is ready to go again.
> 
> Obviously she will never be bred, and I'm not advocating breeding funny looking dogs, but there is funny looking and there is can't function even if it's pretty (or cute). To me not being able to function is far worse.


I think she looks quite well put together, I would imagine if we shaved Vanya down to a grade 1 they'd look quite similar:Hilarious

ETA: this infographoc just came up on my Facebook timeline, thought it was relevant to some of the posts on here:


----------



## Rafa

Kim T Saunders said:


> The Bernese mountain dog life span is 6 to 8 years the bernedoodle is 12 to 18


Eighteen years old?

Can you please share a link to that particular research?


----------



## Sairy

Rafa said:


> Eighteen years old?
> 
> Can you please share a link to that particular research?


I believe their source is Google, which we know is always right.


----------



## simplysardonic

Sairy said:


> I believe their source is Google, which we know is always right.
> 
> View attachment 463597


I'm not familiar with that website but the 'history' of the bernedoodle goes back to 2003 apparently, & they like to bandy the term 'stubborn' around (admittedly I only looked up the bernedoodle & German spitz, both apparently stubborn), which IMO does dogs no favours.


----------



## TiaMarie

Hello,
Were any reputable UK breeders provided in this thread?

Please no negative or preachy replies. We all have access to the same research resources and have come to our own decisions on pure pedigrees and the mixing of breeds.


----------



## O2.0

TiaMarie said:


> Hello,
> Were any reputable UK breeders provided in this thread?
> 
> Please no negative or preachy replies. We all have access to the same research resources and have come to our own decisions on pure pedigrees and the mixing of breeds.


I feel like any reply that's not "ooh this is a great bernerdoodle breeder located here..." is going to be considered preachy or negative. enguin

No, there are no reputable UK breeders of bernerdoodles. If you read the link in the very first reply on this thread it explains why. 
Yes, you can mix breeds responsibly, it is done on occasion for working dogs or sport. But it is done with purpose, with ethics, with the dog's best interest in mind, with thorough health testing, temperament and suitability assessments, and with dogs who have unquestionably proven themselves in their job or sport.

None of that applies to bernese mountain dogs or poodles. 
If you're trying to get a healthier bernese mountain dog, you test for health issues, you do pedigree research including how old the dog was when he/she died and of what, and then you breed from the long-lived lines from dogs and bitches that have been theoroughly health tested who come from health tested lines. Adding a poodle to an unhealthy berner gives you an unhealthy dog with a nightmare coat.


----------



## OrientalSlave

O2.0 said:


> I feel like any reply that's not "ooh this is a great bernerdoodle breeder located here..." is going to be considered preachy or negative. enguin
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Adding a poodle to an unhealthy berner gives you an unhealthy dog with a nightmare coat.


Agree about the replies, plus you might also get a dog with poodle health problems as well as Bernese ones. There's a long list of them...

https://www.pdsa.org.uk/taking-care...after-your-pet/puppies-dogs/large-dogs/poodle


----------



## TiaMarie

O2.0 said:


> I feel like any reply that's not "ooh this is a great bernerdoodle breeder located here..." is going to be considered preachy or negative. enguin
> 
> No, there are no reputable UK breeders of bernerdoodles. If you read the link in the very first reply on this thread it explains why.
> Yes, you can mix breeds responsibly, it is done on occasion for working dogs or sport. But it is done with purpose, with ethics, with the dog's best interest in mind, with thorough health testing, temperament and suitability assessments, and with dogs who have unquestionably proven themselves in their job or sport.
> 
> None of that applies to bernese mountain dogs or poodles.
> If you're trying to get a healthier bernese mountain dog, you test for health issues, you do pedigree research including how old the dog was when he/she died and of what, and then you breed from the long-lived lines from dogs and bitches that have been theoroughly health tested who come from health tested lines. Adding a poodle to an unhealthy berner gives you an unhealthy dog with a nightmare coat.


Thank you for the reply. I do understand how dogs are health tested and bred. And, at some point, all pedigrees were crosses. But also, the strict continuation of these purebred pedigrees is becoming unhealthy in many instances (eg. German Shepherds hips and King Charles Spaniels brain to skull size ratio). There are also ethical breeders who look to crossbreed larger dog breeds with smaller and healthier ones in order to prolong the average lifespan and reduce common health issues resulting from generations of pure breeding within the same gene pools. Both Bernese Mountain dogs and Poodles could be included in this for this reason.

-- However, they could also be included because people wish to breed the desirable traits into a smaller, healthier and easier-to-handle dog.
This is not unlike the reason for which we have any dog breed. All dog breeds were born from mating dogs with certain traits to another, to promote those traits.
Nowadays, the trait most people require is companionship. There shouldn't be any negativity towards crossbreeding for this - not many pedigrees these days are owned for their working traits. Labradors, Poodles and Spaniels are some of the most common breeds in England, yet how many people keep these for hunting and retrieving? These breeds are now used as company breeds just as much, if not more so. So, the reduced gene pool for continuing their hunting and retrieving traits is no longer strictly required and, in some cases (not all), can be ultimately negative due to perpetuating health issues.
The notion that people are now negative towards all crossbreeds is what is continuing this unhealthy pure inbreeding that is causing pedigree breeds to be riddled with health issues.

--- Not all pure pedigree breeders are unethical but some are. Same with cross breeders. There is no need to completely disregard either pedigree or crossbreed breeding. It is entirely down to the ethics and practices of the breeders.

I am personally looking into Bernedoodles because I have worked with dogs (mongrel, cross and pedigrees) for years; have extensively researched dog breeds for when I could finally have my own; I have also spoken with a few vets regarding cross and purebred health; and, in order to rehome a dog when you have cats, my local rescues prefer that you already have a trained dog beforehand. So, for now, a 'bred' dog is the right fit for me.
I would like to know if there are Bernedoodle breeders in the UK so that I can speak with them. Nothing I would not do before looking into a pedigree breed either. In both instances, the ethics and practices of the breeders would determine any decision regarding further research.

--- --- I came onto this thread because I was hoping there would be people who could help lead me towards moral breeders. The restriction of information is never helpful, whether it's with good intentions or not. It can only hurt. And, from what I can see in this thread, at least 3 people have asked for help with this crossbreed. Instead of promoting an ethical breeder, the responses have only been negative and, in some cases, rude. The likely result of this is that these people have now probably been pushed towards backyard breeders.

--- --- The only conclusion that I can draw is that this forum isn't really in the interest of all dogs, nor to help owners and spread helpful knowledge.
But instead, to bolster the closed mindsets of the admins.


----------



## OrientalSlave

TiaMarie said:


> <snip>
> --- --- The only conclusion that I can draw is that this forum isn't really in the interest of all dogs, nor to help owners and spread helpful knowledge.
> But instead, to bolster the closed mindsets of the admins.


I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion.

@O2.0 wrote:

"Yes, you can mix breeds responsibly, it is done on occasion for working dogs or sport. But it is done with purpose, with ethics, with the dog's best interest in mind, with thorough health testing, temperament and suitability assessments, and with dogs who have unquestionably proven themselves in their job or sport."

Earlier posts are quite clear that most people doing that sort of cross are not bothering to look into the health testing for either breed, hence to reputable / ethical breeders of them. Ditto most of these various 'doodle' & 'poo' crosses. They are also not considering what I think of as the GBS question:

_Sarah Bernhardt: Mr. Shaw, you and I should make love, for with my looks and your brains we would have wonderful children.
George Bernard Shaw: Aha! But what if the child were born with my looks and your brain? ._.​
Suppose the pups get the worst of both breeds, not the best? The pups are being sold at hugely inflated prices despite being crosses between breeds with serious known health issues and no checking of the parents - or grandparents etc.


----------



## O2.0

TiaMarie said:


> Thank you for the reply. I do understand how dogs are health tested and bred. And, at some point, all pedigrees were crosses. But also, the strict continuation of these purebred pedigrees is becoming unhealthy in many instances (eg. German Shepherds hips and King Charles Spaniels brain to skull size ratio). There are also ethical breeders who look to crossbreed larger dog breeds with smaller and healthier ones in order to prolong the average lifespan and reduce common health issues resulting from generations of pure breeding within the same gene pools. Both Bernese Mountain dogs and Poodles could be included in this for this reason.
> 
> -- However, they could also be included because people wish to breed the desirable traits into a smaller, healthier and easier-to-handle dog.
> This is not unlike the reason for which we have any dog breed. All dog breeds were born from mating dogs with certain traits to another, to promote those traits.
> Nowadays, the trait most people require is companionship. There shouldn't be any negativity towards crossbreeding for this - not many pedigrees these days are owned for their working traits. Labradors, Poodles and Spaniels are some of the most common breeds in England, yet how many people keep these for hunting and retrieving? These breeds are now used as company breeds just as much, if not more so. So, the reduced gene pool for continuing their hunting and retrieving traits is no longer strictly required and, in some cases (not all), can be ultimately negative due to perpetuating health issues.
> The notion that people are now negative towards all crossbreeds is what is continuing this unhealthy pure inbreeding that is causing pedigree breeds to be riddled with health issues.
> 
> --- Not all pure pedigree breeders are unethical but some are. Same with cross breeders. There is no need to completely disregard either pedigree or crossbreed breeding. It is entirely down to the ethics and practices of the breeders.
> 
> I am personally looking into Bernedoodles because I have worked with dogs (mongrel, cross and pedigrees) for years; have extensively researched dog breeds for when I could finally have my own; I have also spoken with a few vets regarding cross and purebred health; and, in order to rehome a dog when you have cats, my local rescues prefer that you already have a trained dog beforehand. So, for now, a 'bred' dog is the right fit for me.
> I would like to know if there are Bernedoodle breeders in the UK so that I can speak with them. Nothing I would not do before looking into a pedigree breed either. In both instances, the ethics and practices of the breeders would determine any decision regarding further research.
> 
> --- --- I came onto this thread because I was hoping there would be people who could help lead me towards moral breeders. The restriction of information is never helpful, whether it's with good intentions or not. It can only hurt. And, from what I can see in this thread, at least 3 people have asked for help with this crossbreed. Instead of promoting an ethical breeder, the responses have only been negative and, in some cases, rude. The likely result of this is that these people have now probably been pushed towards backyard breeders.
> 
> --- --- The only conclusion that I can draw is that this forum isn't really in the interest of all dogs, nor to help owners and spread helpful knowledge.
> But instead, to bolster the closed mindsets of the admins.





TiaMarie said:


> at some point, all pedigrees were crosses.


No. At some point all pedigrees were _developed_ from crossing breeds and types. What makes a pure-bred dog a purebred is that when you breed a litter of that breed, the subsequent puppies will be uniform and all easily recognizable as dogs of that breed - they breed pure. 
When you cross breeds, you end up with a litter of puppies who all look different. Some will look like mom, some will look like dad, some will look like a true cross of mom and dad, and some will look like neither mom nor dad. 
This argument that all breeds used to be crossbreeds is the BYB mantra but it's completely disingenuous. If you're truly trying to develop a new, better breed, then you wouldn't be breeding first generation crosses ad nauseum like all these BYB do. You would be actively working towards developing a better breed that eventually breeds "pure" and has all the traits you say you're looking for. 
Like, if you want a smaller dog of that breed with more longevity why not breed smaller representations of that breed that come from long-lived lines? 
Adding a poodle doesn't magically make a breed longer lived. I like the stew analogy. If you have a beef stew with carrots and want a beef stew without carrots, you don't dump in a pot of stew with celery and pronounce it carrot-free stew. You ladle out careful portions of stew that don't have carrots in them and mix those portions until you end up with stew that doesn't have carrots. Health testing and pedigree research is how you look for the carrots and make sure to avoid them.



TiaMarie said:


> The restriction of information is never helpful, whether it's with good intentions or not. It can only hurt. And, from what I can see in this thread, at least 3 people have asked for help with this crossbreed. Instead of promoting an ethical breeder, the responses have only been negative and, in some cases, rude. The likely result of this is that these people have now probably been pushed towards backyard breeders.


Ha ha, laying it on thick aren't you? Do you really think there is some contingent of ethical cross breed breeders that we're deliberately hiding from showing up on google searches? 
No, the reason we're not providing information about ethical "bernerdoodle" breeders is because there aren't any! I'll tell you what. If you can find a breeder of bernerXpoodles in the UK who does the relevant health tests on both dogs and bitches before breeding, publishes those results on a searchable database so that others can benefit from that information, keeps tabs on their puppies to at least know how long the pups lived and what they died of - if you can find that bare minimum of ethics in a benerXpoodle breeder, accept my fullest apologies and a donation to the BMDCA Rescue.

BTW, my last two dogs have been mutts that I did not acquire by buying from a BYB. They have both been amazing pets. You don't need to cross breeds to get a great pet. There are dogs dying in shelters every day throughout the world who would have made fabulous pets who just haven't been looked at because they're not pretty enough, fluffy enough, have a sad enough back-story, you name it. If you have worked with so many dogs, you should not have any problem finding a pet through rescue. Look further afield than your local rescue, or have a longer conversation with your local rescue and explain your experience. Volunteer with them, let them see first-hand your expertise. But then again, if you have the experience you say you have, you would not be asserting some of the things you are....


----------



## SusieRainbow

TiaMarie said:


> But instead, to bolster the closed mindsets of the admins.


I'm really not sure where this comes into it but it does nothiing to strengthen your argument.


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## O2.0

SusieRainbow said:


> I'm really not sure where this comes into it but it does nothiing to strengthen your argument.


You admin are part of the conspiracy, hiding away all those ethical bernerXpoodle breeders from the forum - and google searches too apparently! You didn't know you were that talented did you?


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## SusieRainbow

O2.0 said:


> You admin are part of the conspiracy, hiding away all those ethical bernerXpoodle breeders from the forum - and google searches too apparently! You didn't know you were that talented did you?


Oh no, rumbled!


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## OrientalSlave

O2.0 said:


> You admin are part of the conspiracy, hiding away all those ethical bernerXpoodle breeders from the forum - and google searches too apparently! You didn't know you were that talented did you?


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## simplysardonic

TiaMarie said:


> --- --- I came onto this thread because I was hoping there would be people who could help lead me towards moral breeders. The restriction of information is never helpful, whether it's with good intentions or not. It can only hurt. And, from what I can see in this thread, at least 3 people have asked for help with this crossbreed. *Instead of promoting an ethical breeder*, the responses have only been negative and, in some cases, rude. The likely result of this is that these people have now probably been pushed towards backyard breeders.


How many more replies on this thread do there need to be before people realise that there _are_ no ethical breeders of bernedoodles?

If you don't want honest, candid answers from experienced people, who collectively have many, many years breeding, working & living with dogs then maybe this forum isn't for you, a doodle specific forum where everything is pink & fluffy & the darker, nastier side of breeding & selling dogs isn't discussed might be more palatable.


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## Blitz

I am confused as to why someone who wants a smaller easier dog does not go for a smaller easier dog instead of a difficult large breed which they hope might be diluted by breeding with another fairly large breed which is totally incompatible and could produce nightmare progeny. If you want a slightly smaller easier dog and you like poodles then get one and cut the bernese out of the picture.


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## Pricivius

I come back to this thread time and again just in case that ethical breeder has found the thread and wants to promote themselves. If I were one, I would be straight on here to demonstrate that I exist, point everyone towards my ethically bred puppies, the dam and sire’s health testing results and explain how my breeding programme works. Googling the cross finds this thread, as several people have demonstrated, so it should be easy for that ethical breeder to stumble across and fly the flag. The fact they are yet to do so speaks volumes.


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## simplysardonic

Pricivius said:


> I come back to this thread time and again just in case that ethical breeder has found the thread and wants to promote themselves. If I were one, I would be straight on here to demonstrate that I exist, point everyone towards my ethically bred puppies, the dam and sire's health testing results and explain how my breeding programme works. Googling the cross finds this thread, as several people have demonstrated, so it should be easy for that ethical breeder to stumble across and fly the flag. The fact they are yet to do so speaks volumes.


A lot of breeders of poodle mixes seem to feel that they get overly scrutinised, they blame 'purebred snobbery' & that their critics don't apply the same stringent criteria to those breeding purebreds when they receive even the most constructive criticism.

This is of course untrue, as shown on here in many threads about breeding purebred dogs, especially those of popular, fashionable and/or breeds that are physiologically compromised.


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## SusieRainbow

Pricivius said:


> I come back to this thread time and again just in case that ethical breeder has found the thread and wants to promote themselves. If I were one, I would be straight on here to demonstrate that I exist, point everyone towards my ethically bred puppies, the dam and sire's health testing results and explain how my breeding programme works. Googling the cross finds this thread, as several people have demonstrated, so it should be easy for that ethical breeder to stumble across and fly the flag. The fact they are yet to do so speaks volumes.


Well, obviously admin is deleting these replies at source.


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## simplysardonic

SusieRainbow said:


> Well, obviously admin is deleting these replies at source.


Yep, we definitely have time for that in amongst all the spam, trolls, various mediating on contentious threads & our own lives outside of forumland!


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