# "My hand becomes a mouth" - Logical? Reasonable? or silly?



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

hey, y'all! :--)

i would like to credit *Corinthian* for this Q and the appended abstracts, and for kindly allowing me to post this - 
saying that "good information should be shared widely". :thumbup1: thanks so much, cory... 
--- terry

____________________________________

"My hand becomes a mouth."
Two related studies:

If dogs can discriminate the barks of individual dogs and the context of the bark, are they going to be fooled by a jab to the neck?
Is it reasonable to believe the 'hand becomes a mouth/I'm biting them' meme that Millan repeats?

========

Behavioural Processes
Volume 82, Issue 2, October 2009, Pages 198-201

* Dogs discriminate between barks: 
The effect of context and identity of the caller *

 Abstract  
In the present study we explored whether dogs (Canis familiaris) are able to discriminate between conspecific 
barks emitted in different contexts, recorded either from the same or different individuals. Playback experiments 
were conducted with dogs using barks as stimuli in a habituationdishabituation paradigm. 
Barks were recorded in two contexts (stranger at the fence and when the dog was left alone) from different individuals.

We found that dogs distinguished between barks emitted in these two contexts and were also able to discriminate 
between different individuals which were barking in the same context. 
These findings suggest that dog barks may carry context- and individual-specific information for the conspecifics.

=========

Applied Animal Behaviour Science
Volume 114, Issues 1-2, November 2008, Pages 159-167

* Dogs can discriminate barks from different situations *

 Abstract  
We investigated if dogs can discriminate barks of another individual, recorded in two markedly different situations: 
(a) when a stranger entered the property where the dog lived, and 
(b) when the dog was tethered to a tree and left alone. 
We used a habituationdishabituation paradigm for testing discriminatory abilities.

Three 25-s long samples of stranger bark were followed by a single alone bark sample. As a control, 
we used two types of mechanical noise (an electric drill and a refrigerator).

Dogs (n = 14) were equipped with a portable heart rate monitor which recorded the data during the whole experiment. 
Upon hearing the first barking sound, the heart rate of the dogs increased significantly, followed by a habituation 
when the same barks were played back the second and third time. 
The fourth, different bark caused dishabituation of the heart rate. 
This suggests that heart rate can be a sensitive indicator of changes in attentiveness. The dogs did not show 
any significant evidence of dishabituation to the Control condition, of the mechanical noises.

Our experiment showed that dogs can perceive the difference between barks originating from different situations, 
thus barking is perhaps a communicative tool not only for dogs to humans, but for dogs to dogs as well.

__________________ end ____________________

please see the poll to vote - 5 options - 
* dogs easily accept the idea that human-hands can mimic dog-mouths 
* I think dogs are not so easily-fooled, but the hand-jab serves a function 
* I think dogs are well-aware a human is doing a human thing - poking a dog in the neck. (neutral re FX)
* I think poking the dog in the neck is needless, but any upset to the dog is mild. 
* I think poking the dog in the neck is a bad message, and damages dog : human relations. 
(the dogs do Not think this is another dog.)


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Sorry I didn't read the whole OP my eyes aren't cooperating with my brain tonight but I get the gist of the question ...

Why anyone feels the need to jab their dog in the neck is beyond me. Never done it never will. What is it meant to achieve??


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

I wanted to say both option 3 and 5.

Dogs, I am sure, know bloody well that some idiot human is jabbing them in the neck!

And I would think if I did this to Maggie, she would look at me as if to say "WTF you doing?" !! So I would also imagine that it would ultimately result in a negative effect on my relationship with her if I did it enough!

However, I may be wrong, she might just wonder what the hell I am doing but pay no attention and just think "stupid human, why is she poking me"...

but I am pretty convinced that she wouldn't think that I was replicating a "bite"...she ain't stupid!!


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

katiefranke said:


> And I would think if I did this to Maggie, she would look at me as if to say "WTF you doing?" !! So I would also imagine that it would ultimately result in a negative effect on my relationship with her if I did it enough!


Very much agreed.... and there are plenty of intelligent dogs out there who are also quite reactive (perhaps part of their breed make-up to be so), who do not appreciate any kind of hands-on correction.... so if you jab, (or slap or poke) you will get snapped at in return. They are, after all, animals - not teddies!


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

So let's see if I've got this right: if I make a claw shape with my hand and jab at my dog's neck, he'll think that my hand's another dog's mouth biting him? Not only that, he'll then figure: _uh-uh, I'd better start doing what I'm told_?

A crazy idea and bad in so many ways.

It's answer number 5 as far as I'm concerned.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Inkdog said:


> So let's see if I've got this right: if I make a claw shape with my hand and jab at my dog's neck, he'll think that my hand's another dog's mouth biting him? Not only that, he'll then figure: _uh-uh, I'd better start doing what I'm told_?


Like my post above - with my dog if I started doing that with him, he'd think "What the....!" and consider it quite appropriate to return the favour...lol

Not much different to if you tried jabbing one of your friends in the neck, really.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Inkdog said:


> So let's see if I've got this right: if I make a claw shape with my hand and jab at my dog's neck, he'll think that my hand's another dog's mouth biting him? Not only that, he'll then figure: _uh-uh, I'd better start doing what I'm told_?
> 
> A crazy idea and bad in so many ways.
> 
> It's answer number 5 as far as I'm concerned.


I make 'the claw' when playing with my dogs, hover it in front of them and snap playfully. They love it and have loads of fun running about, jumping and barking but yeah they definitely don't see it as another dog or whatever the hell they're meant to think it is :laugh:


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

MerlinsMum said:


> Not much different to if you tried jabbing one of your friends in the neck, really.


Lol!!! I am just imagining jabbing people in the neck now!!! jab jab


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

sequeena said:


> I make 'the claw' when playing with my dogs, hover it in front of them and snap playfully. They love it and have loads of fun running about, jumping and barking but yeah they definitely don't see it as another dog or whatever the hell they're meant to think it is :laugh:


Oh yes, I do that too! in play! fake snap with hands with lots of silly noises too.... pups may try to grab the fingers but grown ups don't, and if you are doing all the right body language and silly stuff then it's a game!

But if I suddenly jabbed a friend of mine, then why would I be surprised if they turned on me and jabbed back angrily? I don't expect my dog to be any different, it's a question of respect. There are better ways of solving a disagreement, than jabbing.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

katiefranke said:


> Lol!!! I am just imagining jabbing people in the neck now!!! jab jab


Just done it to the OH and got a :eek6: look for my efforts


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> Oh yes, I do that too! in play! fake snap with hands with lots of silly noises too.... pups may try to grab the fingers but grown ups don't, and if you are doing all the right body language and silly stuff then it's a game!
> 
> But if I suddenly jabbed a friend of mine, then why would I be surprised if they turned on me and jabbed back angrily? I don't expect my dog to be any different, it's a question of respect. There are better ways of solving a disagreement, than jabbing.


LOL mine seem to think it's a boxing match and start hitting me with their paws. It's not fair, 6 paws against one hand :sad:

But I agree I would be likely to receive a swift bite if I jabbed at them unexpectedly especially if they were already worked up.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

sequeena said:


> Just done it to the OH and got a :eek6: look for my efforts


I guess I have taught my dog other ways to get his attention... without resorting to physical means....  Just as you wouldn't resort to that with your own best human friends... you'd hope your relationship with them was a lot better than that! :laugh:


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> I guess I have taught my dog other ways to get his attention... without resorting to physical means....  Just as you wouldn't resort to that with your own best human friends... you'd hope your relationship with them was a lot better than that! :laugh:


Agreed  It's time to rethink your whole outlook on life if you're doing this sort of thing on a regular basis :laugh:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

hey, sequeena! :--)

according to the Gospel of the Dog-Shouter, bitey-hands that poke dogs necks 
*mimic another dog correcting that dog.... *:blink: which IMO is a really, really far reach. 

just for appetizers, i have yet to see a dog *correct* another dog by biting their neck... 
not adults to pups, not pups to pups, not dogs to teen-k9s, not never nowhere. 
(shrug) its just like that other popular story, that dams SCRUFF their infants + juvies to *correct*, AKA punish. 
i have never once seen that - not in snappy breeds (BCs, Doxies, Corgis...), not in mouthy breeds (Labs, GSDs, Pitties...), 
not nowhere no-how no-time, nada. 
* but people keep saying - and  Believing!  that - U hear it all the while. *

_*the only time that i personally have seen an adult-dog scruff a pup was in play, 
and it was short-term, passing contact; not pinning or gripping for a freeze; and by the DAM 
specifically to carry neonates :thumbsup:less than 6-WO, to move them from one place to another, 
or to bring a chilly pup / lost pup  back to the nest, or closer to her.

i have yet to witness a dam punish AKA correct any pup of any age, by scruffing; 
for that matter, i have not yet seen any dog of either gender, scruff another 
to CORRECT / punish them,  whatever the age of the scruffee or scruff-er. 
so in sum - zero instances in over 25 years of observing + training + pups and and and.. *_

this is IME - Ur mileage may vary! 
--- terry


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> hey, sequeena! :--)
> 
> according to the Gospel of the Dog-Shouter, bitey-hands that poke dogs necks
> *mimic another dog correcting that dog.... *:blink: which IMO is a really, really far reach.
> ...


Thanks for clarifying! I have noticed my 12 year old collie x correcting my 1 year old GSD and 4 month old mastiff by snapping at their face or pinning them (she may be old and small but she ain't taking any crap ) never seen them snap at the neck and in play they go for each others legs. Or if you're Luna (my mastiff) laying on your back and waving your paws about is the way to go :thumbsup:

I have pinned my lot through play and they have pinned me too (usually by sitting on me!) never been aggressive and they've never 'tried it on' when we're not playing.

It takes all sorts!! Is this another CM thing?? If it is I'm not surprised


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

sequeena said:


> It takes all sorts!! Is this another CM thing?? If it is I'm not surprised


yep, the bite is a well-used CM method...the scruffing thing tends to be something that a lot of old-school trainers think. It's like just because people have been saying it for so long, no matter that it is based on completely incorrect info, it still must be true!!

My OHs mum even thinks this is the way to go with pups to teach them they did something wrong!! 

When we first got maggie, she was quite protective around her food bowl and she went on about scruffing them being the way I had to deal with it - and when I didn't you could tell she thought that we were nuts at that the dog was going to be 'dominant' and try and take over the house - maybe even the world !!

I might add that this is how she 'dealt' with food bowl guarding in all her own dogs and 2 of them are VERY protective eaters and one is a VERY bad resource guarder! Whereas I did no such thing to teach maggie and it went very quickly in her once she was with us a while and she has shown absolutely no signs of food or resource guarding since.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

katiefranke said:


> yep, the bite is a well-used CM method...the scruffing thing tends to be something that a lot of old-school trainers think. It's like just because people have been saying it for so long, no matter that it is based on completely incorrect info, it still must be true!!
> 
> My OHs mum even thinks this is the way to go with pups to teach them they did something wrong!!


Someone needs to put that man on a boat with a one way ticket to a very quiet and isolated island 

When I first my OH his way of training was also old school - hit the dog until it learns :eek6: soon got him out of that!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> sequeena:
> his (former) way of training was... old school - * hit the dog until it learns * :eek6: soon got him out of that!


yipe! 
_ if i had even *tried that! * with my Akita, the one learning quickly would have been *ME - i would very 
rapidly have learnt 'hit the dog' = 'major pain', :yikes: and i would have *stopped immediately*. * _
but the damage might well have been done, already;  convincing a guarding-breed to trust U again, 
after U violated their faith? :nonod: not very bloody likely, IME + IMO.

as it was, i never hit her, and she never bit me - or anyone else. 
she did GROWL at me a couple of times, but telling me to knock it off is a far, far cry from hitting me hard + fast. 
missing my 2nd heart-dog,  
---- terry


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> yipe!
> _ if i had even *tried that! * with my Akita, the one learning quickly would have been *ME - i would very
> rapidly have learnt 'hit the dog' = 'major pain', :yikes: and i would have *stopped immediately*. * _
> but the damage might well have been done, already;  convincing a guarding-breed to trust U again,
> ...


Would you believe our oldest dog absolutely adores him?? Don't understand it myself, she's not afraid of him at all.

He understands now, he's never hit my GSD or our mastiff.


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

Hum another fantastic CM method. I have no idea why anyone would do that other than to bully a dog


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

bump..................


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

sequeena said:


> Would you believe our oldest dog absolutely adores him?? Don't understand it myself, she's not afraid of him at all.
> 
> He understands now, he's never hit my GSD or our mastiff.


That's a common response in abused animals or people. It's a survival mechanism, and people mistake this fawning, supplicant behavior as affection. This is why they think there is nothing wrong with it, on the surface it appears like true affection.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Corinthian said:


> That's a common response in abused animals or people. It's a survival mechanism, and people mistake this fawning, supplicant behavior as affection. This is why they think there is nothing wrong with it, on the surface it appears like true affection.


I think you're right.

He's changed his ways now and she has become much less nervous which is brilliant.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

bump................


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

When Millan gets bitten (as he often does) does he believe the dogs are thinking

"*My teeth become become a hand*"


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

Lmao no he's too busy showing them off to the camera as evidence of how much of a red-zone dog it is.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Did you see the show he did with the Korean Jindo dog, named Jonbee? (He strangled it and pinned it). Heard it was rehomed not long after and is now up for rehoming again.


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

Was that the basically feral dog? He was beautiful but how pinning it and choking it a few times a day is meant to help... poor baby really got taken in by the wrong people. Were they not insistant he wouldn't be rehomed as he was part of the family or something?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

hey, cory! :--) 
:lol: it would not particularly surprise me, but U would have to ask him...  
--- terry


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

Part of being a good trainer is working within the constraints of the physical and emotional constraints of the owners. This means that while I could have cesar-ed the hell out of this dog for the rest of his life, it is a poor and unattainable option for most people. When working with others I tell them to imagine they are wheelchair bound and cannot use force, this means they must think their way out of a problem. 

The Jindo Jonbee was given away according to the Episode book and there was another case of Jindo rescued by Flight attendants that Millan also 'successfully rehabilitated' who was also rehomed because of aggression.

Funny enough, I just saw a commercial (or preview?) for today's Inside Edition featuring Cotton from DW. Another successful rehabilitation.


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

Was Cotton the American Eskimo the owners were getting its teeth filed down to stop aggression? The one he recommended be put in a permanent muzzle? Jindo's are really tough dogs to train apparently


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> re nicky-09 -
> _ Jindos are really tough dogs to train apparently... _


who sez, nicky? :--) 
they are closely related to the Akita, and nobody claims Akitas are untrainable; some are seriously dog-aggro, but so are many other breeds, particularly of the guarding types/breeds. 
all my best, 
--- terry


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

A lot of sites about them they're not untrainable and are very intelligent but can be difficult to train especially for inexperienced trainers. Apparently become utterly devoted to their owners though


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> re nicky-09 -
> _ ...(Jindo) are not untrainable and are * very intelligent but can be difficult to train especially for inexperienced trainers. Apparently become utterly devoted * to their owners though... _


hey, nicky! :--) 
U just summed up WHY i keep telling APOs (ave. pet-owners), * who refuse to listen and do not want 
to believe it, * that there are many breeds that are UN-suitable for novice dog-owners...

the Akita, Jindo, Rott, AmBull, Bullmastiff, Dogo, Presa, and similar breeds/types; 
the Akbash and any other LGDs; many guarding breeds, some terrierists (the JRT + Bedlington among them - 
JRTs b/c of their extreme-exercise needs, Bedlingtons b/c of their strong likelihood of dog-aggro and dog-reactivity), 
and many primitive breeds who are smart, but not particularly biddable - like Basenji, New Guinea Singers, Shibas...

i stand by my statement - whether novice-owners or the non-dog-savvy want to hear it or not, it is true: 
* novice-owners and those dog-owners who merely want a quiet, amiable companion and Do Not intend 
to center their lives around their dogs, Do Not Want smart, independent, active dogs - 
 altho they THINK they do, and will say so if asked...  
rather, they  need to look for  dogs and breeds that are not too bright, are friendly to people in general, 
and are not very interested in exercise - 
the k9-equivalent of the easy-going slacker down the street, happy to meet and chat with anyone; not a fire-eating ambitious type, not a Type-A executive wannabe, nor a born member of the Fun-Police, controlling everyone. 
kind, friendly, not real bright, affectionate to family, tolerant of strangers, broad-minded, likes a walk 
but not manic if they don;t get it... 
in short, a nice, sweet, solid, purebred Sofa-Slug. 

novice dog-owners fall for LOOKs - 
and a breeder is not out to educate in many instances; they are out to make a sale, and close the deal. 
they will tell U that their breed loves children 
(and not mention they prefer them raw, with an apple in their mouths just for the look of it...) 
they will tell U that their breed *adores!* grandparents and other mobility challenged or less-than-agile folks 
(and not mention that they just love knocking them down and then scaring the p*ss out of them by barking over them as they lie helpless...) 
they will tell U that their breed gets along beautifully with small animals and pocket-pets 
(and not mention that they particularly enjoy chasing, maiming or eating them...) 
they will tell U that they are protective and devoted - 
(and signally fail to mention that they are protective of what they see as THEIRS, which may be Ur home, Ur yard, 
Ur food, Ur chair and the entire contents of Ur house... and are just as prepared to defend it from U and other family members, as from total strangers - 
and also neglect to mention that they are as a breed devoted to their own pursuits and hobbies, which may or may not coincide with Ur wishes...) 
they will tell U that *their* dogs, even if of a notoriously vocal breed, are quiet and rarely bark... 
(except at human voices, car doors at 3-AM a block away, passing children, bicyclists and other rapid movement, 
falling leaves, microwaves beeping, any telephone, other dogs, boredom...).

 in short -  
breed aficianados often tell the eager acolyte of any breed or mix or designer blend, 
*precisely what they WANT to hear* - and edit the distasteful truths judiciously. 
THAT is why buyers of Lab-Doodles were  never told  that only 50% of the pups in a litter would have the supposedly-desired *NON-Shed* AKA *mandatory-groom* poodle coat, but that ALL would have the mandatory-GROOM texture... 
and that 50% would have the shedding qualities of the Non-Poodle parent, WITH the mandatory-groom, prone to matting texture. 
6-months later, when the pup loses their baby-fuzz and the adult coat comes in, wonder of wonders, that $1600 to $2,000-USA pup *sheds!*... a lot, every day as a matter of fact - and U still have to groom the dog every 6 to 8 weeks, and closer to 6-weeks, if U don;t want the poor dog shaved bald regularly. 
where is the breeder, whose phone# now rings a pizza-place? 
vacationing in the Bahamas... blissfully unconcerned about dissatisfied puppy buyers.

 Caveat emptor -  
MEET adults of the breed - if U cannot touch them, THINK about that. 
if the kenneled dogs bark like maniacs, why assume U can easily teach a pup to be quiet in an apt-complex or condo, 
with loads of other tenants and visitors? 
meet more than ONE adult-dog, * and not all show-dogs, either * - show specimens are more tolerant, habituated 
and socialized, perforce. 
read stuff not written by breed fandom - 
no Golden breeder that i have ever met, will mention the powerful trend to RG of food, and sometimes objects. 



in sum: Before U take home that sweet bundle of fluff, read something besides the press-release.

Click to expand...

*what U see is the package - what U live with, is the contents - and behavior is a critical component of just how successful any dog-human pairing will be.



> n a culture where one-half of marriages end in divorce, be a trend-setter -
> choose a dog for LIFE, their life - by knowing what U are getting into.


all my best, 
--- terry


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

I totally agree some breeds are a lot of work and a lot of owners couldn't handle them especially the guard breeds. I would love an akita but I know I couldn't handle one. Most breders I've met will tell you the truth about the breed though no matter how bad it will sound


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> just for appetizers, i have yet to see a dog *correct* another dog by biting their neck...
> not adults to pups, not pups to pups, not dogs to teen-k9s, not never nowhere.
> terry


i dont like the whole claw thing and think that is a loads of bulls...
however i have observed many times my big mama nudging with her nose and very gently grabbing my crazy pie when i walk them both on one side and the crazy pie is about to kick off (as she usually do), hence i got in the habit of making a sudden change of direction when i notice that, while on walk, that she is about to kick off or bite at the lead....

i am also pretty sure that this is a common behaviour (as other dog holders have spoke to have noticed the same)...

best
d


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> novice dog-owners fall for LOOKs -


So true. I never even saw my pups until they arrived by plane. I described the ideal character and the breeder made his choice based on my needs and future use for sport. Most people would find their constant activity, protectiveness, aggression,intensity and persistence more that they could take, I think they are perfect. Looks had (do a degree, I knew the breed) nothing to do with it.


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## The Dog Butler (Feb 21, 2010)

Firstly is it correct to compare the dogs' ability to differentiate between the barks and "My hand becomes a mouth"? Barks are dogs' means of communication - the same results have been tested at the episode "Man among Wolves" by National Geographic Channel. There they showed that if farmer played the recording of territorial howling of random pack of wolves, the nearby wolves were reluctant to come in into farmer's territory any more and eat his live stock.

In the case of Cesar Millan and his say "My hand becomes a mouth", should be address first to Cesar, if he himself believes that when he imitates his hand as a mouth, then this is what the dog truly comprehends it to be.

To the best of my understanding that I have seen from his episode, this phrase is his best effort to describe to the public what he is achieving by "biting" dogs on the neck. In the end he does prove that he is imitating what dogs do to each other.

Now, comments above discredit Cesar's practice, however most comments carry a message of What it achieves? - althout Cesar does speaks about, or make use of words "My dog thinks" despite the known fact that dogs do not think but only react instinctively.

In conclusion I say the results of the study and the comparison you apply to it is unsuitable, because barking and biting are different actions. If you were to compare whether the dog can differentiate between the human attempts to imitate the dog's bark and the real dogs bark, then I say, lets consider this. But Cesar's biting is a slim attempt to pull the fashionable topic by its ears to a second hand study to popularise it.

In the end, dogs must differentiate us from a certain category of the animal kingdom but how they process our attempts to copy their behaviour? Well, in the case of Cesar Millan it is a physical correction for unwanted behaviour. In his episodes, the method does work, dogs stop behaving badly.


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## The Dog Butler (Feb 21, 2010)

While I was laboriously typing up an answer to the original question there is plenty more sprung up about the concept of biting the neck and whether dogs do that at all. It does seem we have really experienced people here.

But may I wonder to know if anyone did see the dog fights, where dogs fight to death and how the fights end?

Is it not there that dogs kill one another by pinning and biting the neck till the death? Is it not when the animals hunt they catch their pray by the neck and kill it this way.

Now, is it not Cesar trying to replicate the pinning and the neck bite to show the other dog that it knows where dog's most vulnerable part is and how most effectively he can submit an aggressive dog?


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

This is insane. Are you suggesting that because Millan believes something, it somehow becomes reality? 

Part of the meme is his Millan's own ignorance. But I suspect there is a darker, more sinister reason for it. Millan is heavy on the punishment and by presenting punishment this way he makes it more palatable for the audience. Since he tends to go heavy on naturalistic fallacies - and most of the audience doesn't even recognize them as fallacies; the 'hand/mouth' mantra is presented as natural even benign. The truth is that is an aversive and a physical punishment. Many times, it's not even a punishment, it's simply a non-contingent aversive.

Your arguments are circular. He jabs the dogs on the neck, he makes the hand/mouth claim and you conclude he proved his point? This type of reasoning wouldn't even be acceptable in grade school.

Millan is trying replicate something that isn't real. 

Finally your conclusion that he succeeds is unwarranted and demonstrably false. If Millan was claiming, jabbing the dog stops behaviour X, then he would be right. Millan's claim is that by jabbing the dog you can "disagree" with it's fears and anxieties. That by punishing the animal you can make it "balanced"


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

The Dog Butler said:


> In the case of Cesar Millan and his say "My hand becomes a mouth", should be address first to Cesar, *if he (cesar) himself believes that when he imitates (uses?) his hand as a mouth, then this is what the dog truly comprehends it to be.*


hey, butler! :--) 
so we are just supposed to accept this as a given? no questions, no disagreements, no qualms about swooping in and bitey-hand grabbing the dogs neck?



> ...this phrase is his (cesars) best effort to describe to the public *what he is achieving by "biting" dogs on the neck.*
> In the end he does prove that he is imitating what dogs do to each other.


 he did not PROVE to me that he is achieving what he says he intends to - he says he wants a calm dog, 
but what i most-often see afterwards is an anxious, shut-down dog.

nor did he PROVE to me that dogs *do* bite one anothers necks when attempting to impose their will on another dog - 
i respectfully disagree. 


> most comments carry a message... or make use of words "My dog thinks" despite the known fact that dogs do not think but only react instinctively.


 if all dogs did was *react instinctively* we would not be able to use them in the many tasks for which they can be trained, 
as they would be quite incapable of making decisions as to what to do... 
dogs DO think. 
they have brains - not a spinal cord and simple reactions. 
they also have emotions - which can now be SEEN in real-time MRIs as blood-circulatory volume, on a monitor.

please read some current research re dom-dogs... 
What Really Prompts The Dog's 'Guilty Look'

Dogs' Intelligence On Par With Two-year-old Human, Canine Researcher Says

Using 'Dominance' To Explain Dog Behavior Is Old Hat

Human-dog Communication: Breed As Important As Species

cheers, 
--- terry


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## The Dog Butler (Feb 21, 2010)

"Corinthian"

I was suggesting that the man (Cesar) presents his experience the way he managed to interpret it and his ways are visualised to the public in the show. I am also suggesting that his _palatable_ ways do timid aggressive dogs with positive outcomes for the owners or dogs aren't put down in the end.

If I was to suggest that his way is the reality and you are to object that it isn't then this will be the dead end. Because I can ask you back whether your interpretation of the man's work is the reality(correct) of what the man preaches? Whatsmore is it really what you know or believe in should be or is the reality? So lets not go there, i.e. what reality supposed to be.

There is certainly an element of truth that the show must contain elements of entertainment but my interpretation of entertainment is the producers are seeking out for the worst cases, and Cesar's jabs are the quickest way to deal with the in the 45min time frame that the show is given.

I must admit I really stumbled on what _non-contingent aversive_ mean but If I understood correctly "_disproportionately disgusting_" then this is a personal interpretation equivalent of being disgusted that someone ate a frog or a snail and people across the channel treat it as delicatessen.

You claim Cesar's naturalistic fallacies are false, yet I have seen wolf packs behaving exactly like it. I have seen here comments that wolfs are different to dogs yet they share a close DNA as far as I am concerned. So may I be ignorant and claim just like the poor Darwin's theory was perverted that we come from monkeys, in the end we do share 98% of the DNA. But here I contradict myself and off the topic but may I please be a popularist here?!

I feel circular how my suggestion that jab and hand/mouth technique made my argument circular. But I'll attempt to make it more clear. The jab effect is an imitation that one can easily observe bitch doing to her litter or mother wolf doing it to her littler, which humans to the best of their abilities have interpreted as a way of correcting the other dog for unwanted behaviour. That is all. I have seen other dogs passing each other by in the park snapping at each other if one did not want to communicate with the other. Therefore Cesar having similar observations imitates it by forming his hand into a mouth a snapping\jabing the dog the same way. (p.s. no personal suggestions please of grade school achievements, its really is a sensitive subject for me  )

My conclusion said that he succeeds there and then while the show lasts but he does provide the feed back at the end of the show where owners do report that not all dogs in fact very few do change after his visit. What Cesar does is shows them that you can timid the aggressive dog and you have to show the dog where you want the dog to stop.

His jabbing was and is a temporary fix to a dog for showing him an aggression by which he shows it back that he will not tolerate it. As far as I remember his jabbing only takes place when the dog snapped at him first. He discourages people jabbing dog all the time because it makes you weak as he says and stronger presence is what is more important he suggests but I am sure with unbiased viewing everyone has the capacity to see what is shown and not what one wants to see, is it?

As far as my capacity to interpret allowed me, Milan never linked jabbing as a means to an end of making a dog balanced. I remember him saying a balanced dog is the one who is given exercise, discipline and then affection in this order.

I also remember him saying that "punishment" is when the dog is corrected with anger and frustration but if done in the calm, assertive way, then you are teaching the dog what you want from it. But then again, for the protesters this would be considered a language manipulation or else.


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## The Dog Butler (Feb 21, 2010)

"leashedforlife"

If you are one of those who accepts nothing until has proven to oneself that what is presented is true to oneself then I am pleased to meet you.

In no way I suggested that Cesar's way is the ultimate way, but merely discussing that Cesar's way on the TV does look like a reasonable way to restraining an aggressive or dominant dog, where he or his producers try to back it back with video footage from wild wolfs or bitches with litter.

I discredited your original post because as I have concluded the bark differentiation is pulled by the ears to the jab effect, and I must admit I remain thinking so because I haven't seen at least a sentence on why I shouldn't consider it to be so.

This is the dead end problem in the forum. You say you see frustrated dog and I say I see a calm dog, but that's OK, the story of _several men who were asked to describe an elephant in the dark_ still holds true. 

Besides, Cesar jabs the dog on the neck or hips. Again, he jabs neck or hips because I believe is his (human) best form of interpretation of how to show a dog that he does not agree with dogs aggression to him. He could flick its nose, or bite its ear, tail, whatever. Jabbing neck or hip are most effective areas to as he says "snap the dog out of its state". And dogs do use physical touches/corrections on each other to show the other dog the way.

Thank you for the links I'll look into them but to to my old knowledge dog's don't think. May be recent discoveries did show some signs of thinking activity there, but I hope it isn't the same type of study where they made a monkey to count from 1 to 10 and therefore monkey can learn/think?


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

I've having difficulty parsing your posts. Take this sentence:



The Dog Butler said:


> I was suggesting that the man (Cesar) presents his experience the way he managed to interpret it and his ways are visualised to the public in the show.


 Sounds like some new-age gobbledygook spoken by a fraud channelling an Atlantean high priest.



> I am also suggesting that his _palatable_ ways do timid aggressive dogs with positive outcomes for the owners or dogs aren't put down in the end.


What the .....? I have no idea what you mean, except for the put down part. There are several dogs from the DW show that he labelled rehabilitated that were later euthanized. Some given away and others like Cotton, were defanged.



> If I was to suggest that his way is the reality and you are to object that it isn't then this will be the dead end.


I don't know what you mean by 'his way', his explanations are pure BS. To support my assertion I would cite various peer-reviewed research articles.



> Whatsmore is it really what you know or believe in should be or is the reality? So lets not go there, i.e. what reality supposed to be.


Your philosophical musings are dull and boring. The underlined part is not even a sentence. Reality is not "supposed" to be anything. Reality IS, that all.


> Cesar's jabs are the quickest way to deal with the in the 45min time frame that the show is given.


Any joker can hit a dog enough times to make it lie down and seem cured. That's the point.



> I must admit I really stumbled on what _non-contingent aversive_ mean but If I understood correctly "


*You did not*. Next time try the ubiquitous Google or Wiki.



> You claim Cesar's naturalistic fallacies are false, yet I have seen wolf packs behaving exactly like it.


Naturalistic fallacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Really!? When did you follow a wolf pack? Where are you published?



> I have seen here comments that wolfs are different to dogs yet they share a close DNA as far as I am concerned. So may I be ignorant and claim just like the poor Darwin's theory was perverted that we come from monkeys, in the end we do share 98% of the DNA. But here I contradict myself and off the topic but may I please be a popularist here?!


Again I write WTF????

We don't come from monkeys
To make a comparison you need at least 2 things, so 98% to what?



> I feel circular how my suggestion that jab and hand/mouth technique made my argument circular.


????????????



> The jab effect is an imitation


No it's not. That's the claim, and it's unsubstantiated.



> I have seen other dogs passing each other by in the park snapping at each other if one did not want to communicate with the other.


The snap is communication. Your hand is a hand. It is not a mouth.



> I also remember him saying that "punishment"


Punishment is well defined. It's not what he's telling you.

I'm beginning to think you are having a little fun with us. I am fluent in 3 languages and can converse in 2 more. Your sentence structure is unlike anything I've ever seen. It seems to be intentionally nonsensical.


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

The Dog Butler said:


> I discredited your original post because as I have concluded


Another fallacy. Care to guess what it's called?



> Again, he jabs neck or hips because I believe is his (human) best form of interpretation


Can Millan do his bovine best form of interpretation?



> And dogs do use physical touches/corrections on each other to show the other dog the way.


It's incredible how people will mindlessly repeat what they hear on TV.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Corinthian said:


> It's incredible how people will mindlessly repeat what they hear on TV.


Yup. ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY CESAR! 

What a joke. Cesar 'says' so it is so? This is the same man who says that a dog putting its own tail between its legs makes it feel fearful? So the dog does not put its tail between its legs because it IS fearful then? Do wish 'cm' would keep up! :blink:


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## The Dog Butler (Feb 21, 2010)

"corinthian"

Oh I am sorry I seem to have really pressed on a sensitive nerve there.

And I am also so sorry to have parsed you with my comments  but the manner of your chosen vocabulary befuddles my uncomparable mind with yours all might and witty knowledge that is so bravely expressed in WTFs and elaborate ???????????

Clearly my attempts to debate over whether Cesar Milan is any good has got your cohones in a twist and before they had a chance to ever untangle I am going to leave your delicate soul with your strong opinions and try calmer people. Are you that aggressive with dogs too if they don't give you your way?

In the end my posts are so boring that you take such care to quote each one of my sentences, dissect them with disrespect, which suggest that you have a bad attitude. No wonder you are so annoyed with Cesar, he made it better then you did.


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

Corinthian: the Dog Butler does write like a second language user, so maybe a little less attacking on the sentence structure would be a kindness. My thanks, as another second language user who wasn't always this coherent.

The Dog Butler: 


> This is the dead end problem in the forum. You say you see frustrated dog and I say I see a calm dog, but that's OK.


Um, no it is not. Dog body language is not a great mystery anymore. There has been plenty of research into it. If according to what that research tells us, the dog is frustrated, then it IS frustrated, and your observation that it is calm is _wrong_.

please go and read this: The Dominance Controversy and Cesar Millan


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## The Dog Butler (Feb 21, 2010)

Anyway, whoever else wants to bite my head off because I dared to challenge that Cesar's way is not too bad. Its a better alternative or at this is the least worst for those who do not wish to train their dogs with treats and any other form of dog bribing.

Then I still say Cesar offers something that is working and does not make the dog fearful. Dog do snap at each other, step, go over, bite etc I have seen it with my own eyes.

Using a hand in a shape of a dog's mouth merely a suggestion of Cesar to a person to make sense of how to retaliate against the dog that is aggressive to a person. Making a hand look like a mouth is at least useful for those who knows nothing of how to make the dog pull back. If hand/mouth gesture is so appalling as an idea then use straight fingers to make the same action or any form for that matter, give your imagination a flex. The point that is made by Cesar I think is to jab/touch/bite the dog back has just snapped at you and not stay their and stare at the dog not knowing what to do.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Cesar offers something that 'appears' to work, for the cameras and the audience sat in their armchairs at home at least.  The trouble is that no reputable trainer or behaviourist shares that opinion. Never had to do it myself in 37 years of learning about dogs, their behaviour and training, despite some of the human and dog aggressive dogs I have been presented with and rehabilitated. So maybe that must be why I don't understand how a hand can become a mouth? <looks at hand> Hmm! No teeth, no eyes, no fur! Doesn't even move like a dog! 

Laughable excuses coming out here for this celebritys' whacky ideas, sorry. <spits head out>


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

The Dog Butler said:


> Using a hand in a shape of a dog's mouth merely a suggestion of Cesar to a person to make sense of how to retaliate against the dog that is aggressive to a person.


The problem is that retailliating is NEVER the answer. It only leads to _escalation _- if not immediately, then at some later point. The next time the dog is upset to the point of agression, it'll know to go in to the confrontation a lot harder than the last time, because its earlier warnings did not result in fixing _that which was upsetting it in the first place._

If you are really pissed off because someone was very rude to you, do you stop feeling pissed off if that person (or someone else) gives you a smack or a jab in the neck? Or will that make you angrier? Even if you don't react by punching them now (because they might be stronger than you) the next time you're really pissed off you might just decide to go for the punch straight away.

Retalliating doesn't fix anything. Figuring out the cause of the agression and finding a way to remedy it actually fixes the problem, instead of bottling it up to let it build up steam.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

The Dog Butler said:


> [snip]...
> I... also suggest() that his _palatable_ ways do (give?) timid aggressive dogs with positive outcomes for the owners or dogs aren't put down in the end.


 with respect, butler - 
grabbing, poking, pinning, choking, etc, are not _palatable_ to me, nor are they a good set of techniques for any *timid, aggressive dogs -* who will react to threats like pokes, grabs, etc, by becoming highly-anxious and defensive; a bite is nearly inevitable, if the provocation of threats to a defensive dog continue... and as we have seen many times, CM/DW has any number of episodes where *cesar* is bitten by a dog who has been pushed past their limits of stress. 


> ...the show must contain elements of entertainment... the producers are seeking out... the worst cases, and Cesar's
> *jabs are the quickest way to deal with the(m?) in the 45min time frame that the show is given.*


 actually, the show has 40-mins of air-time outside of commercials - and as much editing is done, SPEED of results is not, 
or should not be, a primary criterion - but _*whether the dogs lives, and their families, are improved over the long term - 
or stay the same, with the same problems - or indeed, get worse.*_ 


> ...I really stumbled on what _non-contingent aversive_ mean but If I understood correctly "_disproportionately disgusting_" then this is a personal interpretation...


*non-contingent aversive* is a behavioral science term, with a specific definition. 
it is not a personal opinion, but a descriptor; non-contingent = not related to prior behavior.
CONTINGENT is when the consequence directly-connects to the prior behavior. 
a treat for a pup learning to Sit is *contingent* - pup sits? gets treat. 
*aversive* is any consequence which lowers the odds of the prior behavior being repeated. 


> You claim Cesar's naturalistic fallacies are false, yet *I have seen wolf packs behaving exactly like it.* I have seen... comments that wolfs are different to dogs yet they share a close DNA... poor Darwin's theory was perverted that we come from monkeys, (but) in the end we do share 98% of the DNA.


 where do U live, *butler, that U can see wild wolf-pack behavior? 
wolves + dogs share an enormous amount of DNA - we share 65% of the dom-dog DNA. do we act like dogs? only in limited ways. 
*DNA does not dictate behavior - 
humans + chimps share over-98% of the same DNA, but we do not act much like chimps. i do not throw feces at someone when i am angry with them; i do not hoot with excitement when i see food; i do not climb trees well, 
nor nest in the canopy at night. *

dog-behavior is enormously different from wolves; the very foundation of wolf life is the pair-bond, and the shared efforts to rear, feed, protect and instruct pups. 
* dom-dogs do not pair-bond; they are promiscuous 
* M-dogs are not seasonally fertile, like M-wolves, but year-round; 
* F-dogs have biannual estrus, not annual 
* M-dogs do not feed their mates, nor their pups 
* M-dogs make no effort to bond with the bitch after mating, and have no interest in rearing any pups - including their own. 
* dom-dogs do not form packs, except as a shared intention strikes - mobbing an injured dog in a dog-park, chasing livestock, hounds who are hunting game, etc. 
*packs are cohesive living-units; dom-dogs disperse when the shared activity ends.* 
the farmer comes out to see his hoofstock running in panic, fires a shotgun into the air, and the MOB - not pack - of dogs scatters like quail, but unlike quail flocks, they do not reassemble. 


> The jab effect is an imitation... *one can easily observe bitch doing to her litter or mother wolf doing it to her litter* which humans to the best of their abilities have interpreted as a way of correcting the... dog for unwanted behaviour.


 except that it has *not* been documented - i have yet to see it in the many dom-dog litters + dams i have observed over the years; no one has documented it in wolves, even in videotaped behavior in dens. 
the only time that i have seen dog-dams take their pups necks in their teeth is to carry a neonate under-6-WO somewhere (typically back to the nest), or to nibble-groom a pup who had food, burrs, etc, caught in their hair.

the most-common way that wolf + dog dams punish a pup is non-contact body-language displays - 
an air-snap, hard look, growl, or if the transgression continues + is seriously irritating, a muzzle-bite. this is not forceful - it may be a mere second of contact, it is startling rather than painful. 
* a muzzle-bite is also used by dom-dogs with their pups, and unfortunately, CHILDREN are often bitten in the face when they do things that they ought not - but toddlers faces + child-faces are vastly different from the bony foreface of a puppy, and kids who get facial bites can be seriously hurt by a bite that would not leave a bruise on a pup.*



> I also remember (milan) saying that *punishment is when the dog is corrected with anger and frustration but if done in the calm, assertive way, then you are teaching the dog what you want from (the dog). *


 that is not correct - 
punishment can only tell the punished individual what the WRONG answer is; 
it does not fill in the blank with what behavior is correct, desired, acceptable, or rewarding.

to take an extreme example, if i react to something that another person says by calmly punching the speaker, i can be arrested for assault - no matter how *unemotionally* i hit them. and if the speaker said more than one sentence, they may not even know what triggered my punishing reaction - meaning they do not even know WHY they were punished, let alone what would be an alternative behavior that i would reward with flowers and candy.

it is also extremely likely that the person i punched will not want to get to know me better, in order to *figure-out* what i would reward; they would instead probably want to avoid me entirely. 
dogs who are punished similarly often prefer to avoid the punisher - or at least the context where punishment happens; if that is training, then training has just become a stressful, unhappy place to be.

i want the dogs i work with to enjoy training, to be enthused + happy, and to learn effectively + retain the lesson; a relaxed + focused dog learns best, and an atmosphere of shared enjoyment can only add to the experience - for both human + dog. 
all my best, 
--- terry


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

The Dog Butler said:


> Oh I am sorry I seem to have really pressed on a sensitive nerve there.


 Actually, it's your inability to communicate effectively that annoys me.


> And I am also so sorry to have parsed you with my comments


This is meaningless.



> Clearly my attempts to debate over whether Cesar Milan is any good has got your cohones


Idiota! Es cojones, el hache no se proununcia en español.



> Are you that aggressive with dogs too if they don't give you your way?


My dogs' cognitive abilities seem to surpass your own.


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## The Dog Butler (Feb 21, 2010)

"ArwenLune"

In deed English is not my first language. Appreciate for trying to restrain the wild one but I take little care at those who take it so personally that someone has expressed their thoughts in a language that is not 100% perfect. I'd be finished before I even started.

Anyway, programmes like Cesar Millan, Victoria Stilwell, are popularised means of a) entertaining the crowd and b) helping some dog owners to timid their uncontrollable dogs. And they will have their followers and protesters. 

Alright, Cesar way can indeed be an old obedience classes way, which I can personally confirm that traditional training does give results but the dog does not seem to respect you but only does what is told while you are there and as soon as you are gone it will break your command at an instant if desires something else.

What I also know is that Cesar himself said in his book that he does not like the old obedience way as it produced fearful dogs.

But to restrain any Cesar haters I would like to add that at least his way does restraint an uncontrollable dog to at least manageable way for an ordinary person. His and programmes like this job is not to academically prove what is right or wrong but how to for an average person that does not go against the currently accepted animal laws.

In the end he is an a man of 40s so he is an old school pupil but he added something else less forceful as very traditional obedience classes suggest.

Alright, your article suggest that he produces fearful dogs. But when I see that his way does give you some control and the dog does not appear to be fearful to its owner (i.e. still comes, still plays, and want affection) then try and explain to an ordinary mortal that he is no good.

I think it is ignorant to expect every dog owner to read endless academic articles with Corinthian style language on dog training while they are busy with their lives and having difficult dogs on the top of that.

To sum up it is interesting to discover in a space of one evening that there is so much more new/old to a dog training.

Lets see how it'll progress.


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## The Dog Butler (Feb 21, 2010)

Alright, thank you to those who took the trouble to explain why what Cesar preaches isn't good in the long term.

I'll look into elaborate replies tomorrow


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> Cesar offers something that 'appears' to work, for the cameras and the audience sat in their armchairs at home at least.  *The trouble is that no reputable trainer or behaviourist shares that opinion. Never had to do it myself in 37 years of learning about dogs, their behaviour and training, despite some of the human and dog aggressive dogs I have been presented with and rehabilitated. So maybe that must be why I don't understand how a hand can become a mouth? <looks at hand> Hmm! No teeth, no eyes, no fur! Doesn't even move like a dog! *
> Laughable excuses coming out here for this celebritys' whacky ideas, sorry. <spits head out>


Well said!



Corinthian said:


> It's incredible how people will mindlessly repeat what they hear on TV.


:lol: :lol: :lol:



Corinthian said:


> Idiota! Es cojones, el hache no se proununcia en español.


¿Qué se pasó aquí?
¿y porqué hablamos en español?

¿y de los cojones también? :lol:

Quizás se puede decir que un tal miembro no los tiene 

No he dicho nada :wink:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

The Dog Butler said:


> ...thank you to those who took the trouble to explain why what Cesar preaches isn't good in the long term.


U;re welcome, butler! :--)

i think U will be surprised at the amazingly consistent attitude among dog-pros re Cesar specifically, + dominance as a frame of reference for dom-dogs, in general. 
Veterinary Behaviorists Take a Stand Against Cesar Millan

CMs fan-base is not comprised of vet-behaviorists, CAABs and other science-based individuals; it is overwhelmingly pet-dog-owners, not pros. 
*tamar geller* OTOH gets referrals from veterinary-behaviorists out of her area, as they are comfortable with her as the hands-on person to help with B-Mod, when they are doing a long-distance consult. thats quite the compliment.

vet-behaviorists are very scarce indeed, as this is a board-certified specialty; 12 years of schooling, 4 years of college, plus 4 years post-grad, and THEN... board-certification!  thats a long, long process - approx 10 to 12 years beyond high-school. (so practitioners are 28 to 30 years of age, before they even begin.) 
happy learning, 
--- terry


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

As someone who has studied other languages, I can sympathize with your plight. But stop giving us your first draft. There is a saying "*All good writing is rewriting*" It's even more true for someone learning the language.



The Dog Butler said:


> But to restrain any Cesar haters


What a glib and immature dismissal of legitimate criticism. There are no Cesar haters to be found here. What we see here and in other places are are people who express legitimate concerns about the outdated, often dangerous and counter-productive methods that Millan promotes.



> I would like to add that at least his way does restraint an uncontrollable dog to at least manageable way for an ordinary person.


Anyone can restrain a dog.



> In the end he is an a man of 40s so he is an old school pupil but he added something else less forceful as very traditional obedience classes suggest.


The trend was already moving forward. He's actually halted and in many cases reversed the progress that had been made.



> I think it is ignorant to expect every dog owner to read endless academic articles with Corinthian style language on dog training while they are busy with their lives and having difficult dogs on the top of that.


This is a little funny when read as 'corinthian style language':blush2:

What's really ignorant is to ignore the scientific findings because a TV celebrity is telling you something else.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

lemmsy said:


> ¿Qué se pasó aquí?
> _What is going on with you?_
> ¿y porqué hablamos en español?
> _Why are we speaking Spanish??_
> ...


(I think you can safely say I don't habla Español.) 
_My hovercraft is full of eels._


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

allright im gonna jump in here so please nobody kill me, i am a very open minded person who likes to explore many facets of every problem.

ok so at the beginning of the DW ive noticed that they do a bit of filming of just the everyday life of the family. just as like an introduction you know? the family describes their problems and the behaviors are filmed. In two different episodes ive seen a similar situation occur:

First:
Two dogs live in the home. A person come to the gate and Dog A runs to the gate barking agressively at the stranger on the other side. The owners call Dog A and say "no", but to no avail. just moments after the behaviour begins, Dog B runs up to the situation at the gate and nips/bites at Dog A.

Second:
Three dogs live in the home. Dogs A and B constanly are fighting with eachother. a fight breaks out when Dog A instigates with Dog B. moments later Dog C joins the situation, not to fight, but to bite/nip Dog A.

this is *supposedly* just filming the dogs as they naturally are everyday, and i do beleive that this part of the filming at least, is true.

so, if its true that dogs DONT use the "bite" for this purpose, then what is happening in these scenarios?

im not asking in an antagonizing way at all ok? somewhere we need to draw the line between fact and opinion, and i have NO clue where it is cause information is contradicting itself. they cant both be true.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

kello82 said:


> First:
> 2 dogs... in the home. A person come to the gate and Dog A runs to the gate barking agressively at the stranger... The owners call Dog A and say "no"... to no avail... moments after the behaviour begins, Dog B runs up to ...the gate and nips/bites at Dog A.
> 
> Second:
> ...


hey, kelly! :--) 
i do not know if i have seen the clips in Q - as U do not mention breeds, genders, owners, location, or any other identifying 
characters.  so i am forced to speak in generalities. (hands-up shrug)

also a Q - 
in each case - did the dog who snapped, grab the other dogs NECK?

redirection - 
dogs will also frequently re-direct aggro under stress - 
there was a short clip that ran as part of a commercial a couple of years ago, and it was funny-sad: a bitch + dog, both Yorkies, standing in a doorway inside a glass storm door; the postie is approaching, and the 2 dogs begin leaping up + down like popcorn in a hot pan, barking like they have lost their minds. 
about 5-seconds into the bark-mania, the MALE dog turns and BITES his housemate, who has done nothing to deserve it... 
she growls + snaps at him, and then both return to pogo-ing up and down, shrieking maniacally. :huh: 
the commercial was about how excited U would be, finding-out that U had won a big sweepstakes... and waiting for the letter. 

happens all the time - look-up redirected aggression or deference behavior - snapping at someone else when U are highly aroused or frustrated is not unknown in humans.  
cheers, 
--- terry


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

haha no i didnt mention any specific details cause i cant remember !  lol

i do remember that in the second scenario, the two fighting dogs were pommies. but thats about it. i remember those epi's well though, as far as details not so much 

hmm ok so your saying that in both cases the dogs who bit/nipped were having frustration of their own, and take it out by nipping? makes sense i guess, same as we snap too, as you said.

ok so how about this, how DOES a dog tell another dog "i dont like your behavior please stop." ??

oh and no, neither dog like GRABBED the others necks, not like how they kill, but definite teeth on skin pressure it looked like.

ill see if i can figure out which epis they were....i doubt there s a clip online, but ill see what i can come up with.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

My dogs growl at each other, posture and pull faces. If there is a spat, there's a spat, not jabbing in the necks with mouths or holding each others necks with mouths but a rolling, snarling spat - which is soon quelled by myself with a loud, growly, "Oi!!!" etc. Husband squeaks if he shouts so it's generally left to me unless he is on his own with them then he HAS to become growly!


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## The Dog Butler (Feb 21, 2010)

I have gone through all the comments here and went through some other posts in the PetForums and the amount of information that has been presented to discredit Cesars way is overwhelming to be frank.

However, it does remind me when two school with different teaching methods, clash. Something like Freudians vs Jungians.

Everyone have an opinion developed and backed up with articles that support their preaching.

One really need to specialise to accept/practice either. I think Ill stick to the school of Monkey see, monkey do, easier and less time consuming for my type  who wants little but the dog that is not a nuisance in everyday life.

In the mean time Ill continue watching the dogs interacting.

Why? *Example: Victoria Stilwell, S4 E6.*

Biggest problem: Dog mounts like maniac.

Personal observation: If one dog tries to mount the other and former not interested, itll either: flight, fight.

Victorias solution: Short, snappy Oi and locked away time out. Dozens of time, until the dog is exhausted.

Comments: Please tell me why should I exhaust firstly myself with dragging the dog to the time out area each time its after my piece?
Why would it be wrong to copy what the dog does, FIGHT? (Iam leaving the FLIGHT aside as there is no where to run at home.)

Sorry why should I prefer Vici's way and cannot just push away or jab the dog so I can deal with it quick and short? Why should I try and distract a horny dog with a treat or some other form of "positive" distraction? Did anyone try distract themselves with a candy just before they longed in bed for sex?

Dogs don't JAB? Alright I am not a dog neither and I cannot fully replicate the dog - run on my 4s and roll over and run as fast, but I can do something else instead, eg. JAB it. Dog's don't jab on the neck! Alright. I'll jab anywhere as long as I don't hurt the animal but send a message across.

Jab doesnt last? Yes it does! Sooner or later the dog will get it that _this human doesnt like being mounted and actually rather feels not nice being jabed, it doesnt hurt but certainly not something I want to experience again_.

The dog feels bullied by a JAB? And what about the person being bullied by the dog? Does that not come across the dogs mind? In the end dogs should think these days.

Anyway fellas, I am sure you can drop a ton on me of controversial information and it can get hot again.

However I will leave some more comments in what I have schemed through.
1) Dr Yin is using treats based training, nothing new, old as any other methods. One schools claims treats associate positive, the others say food leaves the choice, i.e. unreliable, better to associate a consequence and on and on and on

So what do we do?
We give people Cesar way, they bully/ torture the animal!
We give people Dr Yin's way they obese/torture the animal!

2) Dogs do live with us in artificial conditions, brought from different sources at different ages, from different background, so if in such environment wolves do exhibit dominance, why dogs dont, wouldnt?

3) Final question I wonder why people like Cesar are popularised by NatGeo and not Yin or veterinary behaviourist? Surely NatGeo team arent dog haters?


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

This link explains all I wanted to say - The Appliance of Dog Science

Where is your evidence that Dr Yins dogs are obese please? I would love to see it. 

Intelligent trainers use part of the dogs daily food ration to train them.  None of my dogs are fat and I have not seen any positive trainers dogs that are obese either?

Poor argument for lazy training sorry.

You may have read it all but you have not absorbed much of it have you? 

Your choice. Your dogs. Doesn't mean you're right though.


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

The Dog Butler said:


> However I will leave some more comments in what I have schemed through.
> 1) Dr Yin is using treats based training, nothing new, old as any other methods. One schools claims treats associate positive, the others say food leaves the choice, i.e. unreliable, better to associate a consequence and on and on and on


NO. You are wrong. Dr. Yin is applying OC, and in the case you saw food was being used.



> We give people Dr Yin's way they obese/torture the animal!


How about you use 1/10 of the brain capacity and reduce the calories you give during training from the overall food consumption. *But of course, you are being intentionally provocative by calling the dogs obese.*



> 2) Dogs do live with us in artificial conditions, brought from different sources at different ages, from different background, so if in such environment wolves do exhibit dominance, why dogs dont, wouldnt?


Wolves-> Wild. Dogs ->Domesticated. Any questions?



> 3) Final question I wonder why people like Cesar are popularised by NatGeo and not Yin or veterinary behaviourist? Surely NatGeo team arent dog haters


?
Same reason, Bill the Nye guy has a show but Roger Penrose doesn't. Hate to tell you there buddy, being on TV don't mean squat. NatGeo channel is interested in money. Drama bring in money and there is little drama in modern methods.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

kello82 said:


> ok so how about this, how DOES a dog tell another dog "i dont like your behavior please stop." ??


Calming signals gallery

Body Language in Dogs: how to read what your dog is saying, from Stacy's Wag'N'Train

The Canine Behavior Blog » Welcome to The Canine Behavior Blog

<> <> <> DIAMONDS in the RUFF - Training for Dogs & Their People<> <> <> - see Behavior Questions - 
then click on *Body-language diagrams *


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

What stupid train of thought.



The Dog Butler said:


> Victorias solution: Short, snappy Oi and locked away time out. Dozens of time, until the dog is exhausted.





> Sooner or later the dog will get it that _this human doesnt like being mounted and actually rather feels not nice being jabed, it doesnt hurt but certainly not something I want to experience again_.


So, because you are a lazy ass, you prefer to hit the dog repeatedly. And continue to hit the dog because sooner or later the dog will stop?



> Comments: Please tell me why should I exhaust firstly myself with dragging the dog to the time out area each time its after my piece?


You shouldn't. You should never have a dog.



> Why would it be wrong to copy what the dog does, FIGHT?


You are not copying.



> Sorry why should I prefer Vici's way and cannot just push away or jab the dog so I can deal with it quick and short? Why should I try and distract a horny dog with a treat or some other form of "positive" distraction?


The problem is not the dog. It's your difficulty and immature way you deal with sexual situations - even those of a dog.

While I agree that Janice is not a troll. This guy definitely is.


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

The Dog Butler said:


> Everyone have an opinion developed and backed up with articles that support their preaching.


Actually, I have not seen a single scientific article that backs up Cesar Millan's methods. Just a lot of 'he's popular, he must be right' and 'We've always done it this way'.



> Sorry why should I prefer Vici's way and cannot just push away or jab the dog so I can deal with it quick and short?


You're asking us for arguments for why you should NOT hit your dog?



> 1) Dr Yin is using treats based training, nothing new, old as any other methods. One schools claims treats associate positive, the others say food leaves the choice, i.e. unreliable, better to associate a consequence and on and on and on


No, she uses rewards based training. She pairs what she wants from the dog with something the dog wants, and gets great results. Happy dogs and no need to jab, shove or otherwise bully.

YouTube - Happy Jack Russell Terrier (JRT) Heels for Toy | AskDrYin.com

And her dogs don't eat from bowls at all, they earn all their kibble through good behaviour throughout the day. So the obesity excuse is bullshit.


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## The Dog Butler (Feb 21, 2010)

[CarolineH]

Quote: This link explains all I wanted to say -[/COLOR] The Appliance of Dog Science

Good article and the last two paragraphs confirms to me my waffle - new school, new teachings…etc

_Just a thought of where I think the reward schooling comes from:_ This whole, reward based training must happen, force training is evil is the direct consequence of increased tolerance in the Western society. We now entertain our criminals in prisons more then an average person gets by earning. The increasing Health and Safety Laws are _choking_ our life styles. People in the UK are so obsessed with animals' welfare that dogs got rights 60 years earlier than children did in the 20th century. Followers of reward training condemn any physical corrections to a dog despite dogs doing it to each other, to me it resembles the similarity that if you are getting burgled don't attack the burglar or you'll end up in prison for hurting him. Interesting! Anyway, off the topic…

Where is your evidence that Dr Yins dogs are obese please? I would love to see it. 

Her's aren't because she is a professional but as I mentioned in my previous post we gave this tool to people and dogs are obese in Western society, a lot of them. We like to feed our dogs a lot and we do like to give them a lot of treats in between too. So when we incorporate treats into training, then we increase the food intake.

Quote: Poor argument for lazy training sorry.

Perhaps it is lazy but we are all different first of all and secondly there is only so much time everyone have or willing to input for the feedback they desire back for it.

Quote: You may have read it all but you have not absorbed much of it have you? 

No, I haven't absorbed it yet. I find it difficult to accept something until I have fully understood it. ☺

Quote: Your choice. Your dogs. Doesn't mean you're right though.

Doesn't mean I am entirely wrong neither, may be yet. ☺

[leasheforlife]
I can only thank you for these links. They are really informative and I will find them very useful.

[ArwenLune]

Cesar did not invent any new form of training, therefore there is no need to hypothesise them.

ArwenLune why are you twisting my words and say HIT the dog. I said push away and/or jab it and without hurting an animal.

Sayin, _NO, she uses reward based training_ is like saying, "_No, this person is not a drug addict, he is a substance user_. Come on, I am not a fun of politically correct language. ☺ I just still cannot grasp the idea of using treats when the dog challenges me.

Alright, I give you, I can understand using treats to make the dog heel, sit, stay, and so on. But when the dog mounts me and I am supposed to give it a treat, forgive me but I am too stubborn to accept it.

Oh that explains it. She is not using treats as treats but it becomes part of the food ratio. Ha…so the dogs are hungry, when she works with them…eh?

Final word:

Can we please all get it here once and for all: I am here to discover how to make the dog obedient, respectful and trusting. And I am discovering the most suitable way that will work for both ME and the DOG with least negative consequences, whatever they can be, for both of us.

You have to understand that Cesar is popular, whether I like it or not he will be the first I will come across, when I start my search. May be you disagree with his physical method but this man too has a lot more to offer of non physical.
Where as your method is like the underground movement that is may be yet to see the light. And it would be your ill and disadvantage if you attack people who come here and know something that isn't aligned with methods that you praise.

And I will not be shy to speak my opinions because this is the only way to discover what I am looking for. I am not shy to say _why I can't push away or jab the dog. Because I see dogs using physical corrections on each other._ And for as long as people see dogs physically handling each other it will be very difficult for you to persuade people that humans aren't supposed to touch an animal in a "negative" way.

I will not be shy to say _if the dog mounts me I do not want to hesitate to push it away because
a) I don't hurt an animal when I push it away
b) Animals use physical corrections at each other_

By the way:
I've read a comment where said dogs don't bite/nibble each other on necks. And I have a video from You tube, where although Boxers are only playing, one keeps nibbling the neck of the other quite frequently: YouTube - Boxer Dog Fight


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

A sensible owner realises the treats are 'extras' and amends their dogs diet accordingly using treats as part of the dogs daily allowance of food.  *Positive, reward based training is NOT the cause of canine obesity. Over-indulgent owners are!* Apart from that, the treats should be so tiny that even if they are 'extra', the extra energy a dog is using through training (all 'work' uses energy) will burn off the extra calories!


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

The Dog Butler said:


> [CarolineH]
> 
> By the way:
> Ive read a comment where said dogs dont bite/nibble each other on necks. And I have a video from You tube, where although Boxers are only playing, one keeps nibbling the neck of the other quite frequently: YouTube - Boxer Dog Fight


But they are playing, not correcting each other. 

Dogs, like any other animal, practice fighting and hunting techniques through play - even young puppies will do it. Nibbling and biting each others necks has nothing to do with correction and that is where CM's theory of jabbing the dogs neck etc is flawed. Fighting, play and hunting behaviour are totally different to 'correction'. .


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

The Dog Butler said:


> ...the last two paragraphs confirms to me my waffle -
> *new school, new teachings*…etc


sorry, butler - that is horse-hockey. 
there were books written in the 1500s that talked about training with kindness - *it was the need to get dogs trained fast, in large numbers, during TWO world-wars, that resulted in the quick-and-dirty, forceful training, that began to be popularized in the late 40s and early 50s. *

in the 1920s and 30s, purebreds were mostly owned by wealthy people; the average SIZE of a pet-dog in the USA was a bit bigger than a terrier, maybe 15 to 20#, and many were terrier-mixes. dogs that needed a lot of grooming were virtually nonexistent, except in wealthy homes that bred + showed as a hobby. 
in 1920, 51% of the US-popn was urban - *48.8% was rural.* 
by 1950, 64% was urban, and only 36% was rural - but that is still over One person in Three, living in farms or villages. 
http://tinyurl.com/ghsum

in the 1930s + 40s, the only people who *trained* their dogs had hunting dogs or herding dogs, or trained circus or other performance dogs (movies, vaudeville, etc), and military or police k9s. pet-dogs often roamed at will, in small towns + even in cities, unless the yard was fenced. 
on this page, dedicated to Camden NJ, 
Camden Streets - Main Street 
U will see 2 photographs with dogs - 
one from 1875, with a scruffy black terrier-type in front of a general dry-goods; and one from 1959, with a smooth-coated terrier beside a new car and a woman in a shirtwaist dress. 
neither dog is leashed. the black-dogs coat is not interrupted by a collar; it is impossible to say if the smaller dog has a collar on, but no city-tag is visible. here are more... 
Excerpts From The Annals of Everyday Life (The Square America Snapshot Archive) | dogs 
the popularization of dog-training classes for the public only began AFTER WW-2, and the early trainers, like *koehler*, were brutal + brisk - after all, they were veterans who had shoved untrained dogs thru 6 to 8 weeks of boot-camp style harsh training, beginning to graduation. 
*BUT - as dog-trainers for the Armed Forces, they had a bottomless pool of dogs, so they could burn-thru, burn-out and wreck 60% of them, and still be happy with the results. pet-dog owners do NOT have an endless supply of dogs - they usually have one in training at any given time.  and pet-dog owners are not desperate to shove a naive dog thru training, start to finish, in 6 to 8 weeks so that the dog can start serving on the front-lines of a war!* 
the Army-veterans who were the early dog-trainers for the public did the dogs and their families no favors - they were demanding, brusque, harsh task-masters, and used choke-chains with vigor. 
i could train better than they did before i was 12-YO - and did. 
and no - i am not unusual, in fact i have taught kids as young as 9-YO to train very effectively; they are often better than adults, as they have no misconceptions to erase. 


> ...This whole, *reward-based training must (be used), force training is evil * (attitude) is the direct consequence of increased tolerance in the Western society. [snip]...
> Followers of reward training *condemn any physical corrections to a dog despite dogs doing it to each other*...


oh, pshaw... Increased Tolerance? WHERE? the KKK has been growing by leaps + bounds since the 1980s, and Neo-Nazis and skinheads are hardly rare. white-men b*tch incessantly that women and men of color are *taking their jobs*, and womens wages have fallen in relation to mens of the same schooling + experience. 
where is the blooming tolerance? tell me + i;ll move there.  


> (yins dogs) aren't (fat) because she is a professional but... we gave this tool (pos-R) to people and dogs are obese in Western society, a lot of them. *We like to feed our dogs a lot* and we do like to give them a lot of treats in between too. So when we incorporate treats into training, then we increase the food intake.


pish + tosh - *dogs are fat because they are over-fed + under-exercised. PERIOD,.* i know owners who have never given their dog a treat, not to train, not for any other reason... and their dogs are fat as hogs. they FREE-FEED, the bowl is always down with food in it! dumb... dogs are opportunistic eaters, and many have no surfeit switch. 


> Sayin, _NO, she uses reward based training_ is like saying, "_No, this person is not a drug addict, he is a substance user_... I just still cannot grasp the idea of using treats when the dog challenges me.


thats odd - i have worked with dogs who had bite histories, and i give THEM treats... its a crucial part of B-Mod, altering the dogs emotional reaction to the former trigger via DS/CC. (non-contingent association a-la Pavlov) 


> ...when the dog mounts me and I am supposed to give it a treat, forgive me but I am too stubborn to accept it.


sheesh, just interrupt + re-direct! U cannot be that dim; teaching the dog an alternate behavior, like Tug, is simple; U can poke a dog dozens of times, which is very ineffective... or U can teach the dog Tug, build their enthusiasm, and offer the tug-toy to get the dog to dismount BEFORE he gets well-started - thus cutting off the activity.



> (yin) is not using treats as treats but it becomes part of the food ratio. Ha… so the dogs are hungry, when she works with them… eh?


no - she IS using treats; U just reduce the total volume of dinner, to deduct the calories doled-out as rewards during the day. 


> ...your method is like the underground movement that is may be yet to see the light.


underground?  there are thousands of pos-R trainers in the USA - and hundreds of thousands around the world. 
positive reinforcement dog trainers - Google Search 
there is only ONE Cesar - and he keeps saying, *i work from instinct, i have no plans...* 
if U work from gut-hunch and impulses, U cannot teach someone else to do what U do - because there IS no pattern to follow.

cheers, 
--- terry


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

The Dog Butler said:


> Cesar did not invent any new form of training, therefore there is no need to hypothesise them.


OK, so there is the recent scientific backing for his style / old style training? You say there are articles for both sides, let's have 'em.



> ArwenLune why are you twisting my words and say HIT the dog. I said push away and/or jab it and without hurting an animal.


Hit, jab - causing the animal pain. If a jab does not cause pain, how else do you think it works?



> Sayin, _NO, she uses reward based training_ is like saying, "_No, this person is not a drug addict, he is a substance user_.


Watch the bloody video. I've posted it like 3 times now. The dog works for a reward; not a treat but something else he wants. No treats in sight.

YouTube - Happy Jack Russell Terrier (JRT) Heels for Toy | AskDrYin.com

She pairs what she wants from the dog with something the dog wants, and gets great results. Happy dogs and no need to jab, shove or otherwise bully.

Edit: if i sound impatient here, it's because I am - you come across as being deliberately obtuse about the things that have been explained about positive training. No, you don't give the dog a cookie for doing a behaviour you don't want. 
You reward the behaviours you DO want. You remove the rewarding factor for behaviours you don't want (such as ignoring a dog jumping up to get attention), redirect them (such as teaching the dog to sit instead of jumping up, and then giving it attention). Dogs do what works for them - if the behaviour you want consistently works better for them than the behaviour you don't want, guess what they'll chose? This is really not a complicated concept.


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2010)

I do think it depends on the individual dog and what the rest of it's treatment is.
If I did this to Alfie, he would be confused but not worried, if it was done to Muddy, he would see it as instigating play.
Having said that, their lives are rather cosy and safe, if it was used in a continual spiral of harsh training methods then obviously it would be just another form of abuse likely to break a dogs spirit.
For this reason I cannot answer the poll


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> in the 1920s and 30s, purebreds were mostly owned by wealthy people; the average SIZE of a pet-dog in the USA was a bit bigger than a terrier, maybe 15 to 20#, and many were terrier-mixes. dogs that needed a lot of grooming were virtually nonexistent, except in wealthy homes that bred + showed as a hobby.


That was a really interesting post that reminded me of so much that I have forgotten due to this darn illness of mine! Dogs certainly were treated a lot differently 60 - 80 years ago but sadly the harsher methods are still with us, passed down from generation to generation. Such a shame as what can be achieved via positive methods, as proven time and time again by Guide Dog trainers and other types of assistance dog trainers is proof enough that modern reward based training works and pays dividends!


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

I think this depends on the interpretation of words... I use touch with my dogs a lot in day to day situations (although not to teach a specific task, lure is much better), but sometimes even to interupt behaviour, but my defination of jab, may be totally different to yours, it certainly isn't harsh or painful, but there may be an element of surprise.

e.g. My Corgi x Collie has very strong chase instincts and can get very focused on something, no amount of calling her to me, will elicit a response. However, if I interupt that behaviour by touching her, she will turn to look at me, even for a split second, I can then call her away ask her to do something else and treat, and/or, if I have one to hand, click. I am not rewarding the arousal behaviour (that is self rewarding), but the coming away and focusing on me. Can I add, that this is a dog that is usually very biddable (to use an old fashioned word), she does agility (with wins too), has recently started HTM/Freestyle with fantastic moves! and has an excellent concentration level.

Touch can be used in so many ways and is a powerful tool.

I would also say that I have 'pushed' my dogs away from me now and again, I would challenge any owner to say that they had never done so. However, your interpretation of 'push' and the circumstance it is done, may be totally different to mine.

Kate


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

*Survey of the use and outcome of confrontational and non-confrontational training methods in client-owned dogs showing undesired behaviors* _(Applied Animal Behaviour Science 117 (2009) 4754)_:
http://www.pawsoflife.org/pdf/Library%20articles/Herron%202009.pdf

_From the conclusion:_
Owners attempted a variety of behavioral interventions, many of which elicited an aggressive response, with their dogs prior to their appointment with a referral Behavior Service. As we expected, the highest frequency of aggression occurred in response to aversive interventions, whether direct or indirect. In contrast, reward-based training elicited aggression in very few dogs, regardless of presenting complaint.

...confrontational or aversive behavioral interventions applied by dog owners before their pets were presented for a behavior consultation were associated with aggressive responses in many cases. Owners of dogs aggressive to family members are especially at risk for injuryand their pets at risk of relinquishment or euthanasiawhen certain aversive methods are used. Ultimately, reward-based training is less stressful or painful for the dog, and, hence, safer for the owner. It is important for primary care veterinarians to advise owners about risks associated with aversive training methods, despite their prevalence in the popular media, and to provide resources for safe and effective management of behavior problems.

EDIT: a few of you may be interested in some of the other articles which are available on the same site: PoL -Articles


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

Inkdog said:


> *Survey of the use and outcome of confrontational and non-confrontational training methods in client-owned dogs showing undesired behaviors* _(Applied Animal Behaviour Science 117 (2009) 4754)_:
> http://www.pawsoflife.org/pdf/Library%20articles/Herron%202009.pdf
> 
> _From the conclusion:_
> ...


Interestingly, only 4% were uncastrated males - 61% castrated males!

That makes you think!

Kate


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - Poll on CMs methods + tools, as shown on the Dog-Whisperer TV-show 
by request of kello - Discussion-free, please.


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## The Dog Butler (Feb 21, 2010)

[leashedforlife]

Terryyou made me fidget what you had presented back, this is so much more what I bargained forIn fact, I feel honestly privileged to have engaged in conversations with you.

Anyway, I admit my knowledge of dogs is far from rich and I couldnt imagine that we have anything dated as far as 1500s. I did call reward training as underground movement because of my judgement of what popped into my knowledge when I started getting interested in dog training. And we all know who is the main stream dog celebrity today Cesar, not Dr Yin for example.

You really had me cornered here on how much you presented about forced training and where it comes from. I can only say it was very interesting and logical to me and I dont see the need of referencing it. And if you had the talent to train dogs differently and it worked and you took it as far as you have today and it still works, great. Although we are clear here that I do believe that reward training that it does work, I just know little about it and also what are its cons and difficulties?

Well, Terry, perhaps you have some strong statistics there on how KKK, Neo-Nazis have grown or relatively since 1980s but in my opinion: the birth of excessive political correctness, increased almost imposed acceptance of societys minorities in the west if not naturally but at least artificially has been heavily propagated. In fact isnt it the last WW that have made Europeans to desire for this imposed so that they could stop the bloody baths in their little continent.

This is where I had a thought that reward training came from increased tolerance, because, today the society are a strong believer that if you are wrong, thats OK, you were unfortunate, we will help you to re-grow into a better being, but we will not punish you for thatbecause it is believed violence on violence only causes more violence and so on. You see my link, aggressive doggive jabitll be aggressive, give food and itll be calm.

Well, I must admit that I didnt entirely dropped the whole blame on treats as the sole problem of dogs obesity. What I meant is because how people are generally neglect on food ritual to animals, therefore giving them the tool of such intensive treats training as Ive seen from Dr Yins video, I said will obese dogs farther. Yet of course as usual warnings for the most challenged once is a must.

You went a bit heavy on abbreviations (B-Mod, DS/CC) here and sounds scientific but what I understood by putting it simple, it is similar to taming a wild animal by leaving it food and eventually itll come eating off your hand and will bring its littler along. Alright, very good, makes a good sense to me.

Damn, that Tug example is pretty good, I dont know it but looks like you have solved it how to without pushing the dog away, i.e. reducing the chances of dog trying to mount you generally, which requires consistent training which calls for not being lazy, which we started with as would be a wrong start(sigh)

Terry, what are the known cons of reward based training?

[ArwenLune]

I havent been interested in Cesar that much to look for scientific back ups, also because I wasnt challenged like I am now with his ways.

To the best of my knowledge, which you heard numerous times a jab delivers a message that I dont like what you are doing, which supposed to imitate a snap if not neck anymore, then a muzzle.

Of course Ive seen the video you posted. Yes the dog wants a toy, but obviously there was a lot of work done with the dog before it trotted so graciously next to Yin for a toy.

Bully! Interesting how you put it. If you get bullied by a dog first, thats alright but if you give the dog its attitude, you are bully. Although its instinctively for us to first shove, poke, push the animal for its unwanted behaviour. If however of course you call for the humans brain capacity to think, and come up with much clever ways, then of course I can't talk. But remember not everyone are so curious.

All I said in the last paragraph is that I disagree calling person a bully who is using instinctive methods against an animal that bullies him in the first place, prior having no knowledge that there are other ways.

May be it is deliberately obtuse but what you are missing is ways people learn. And as I have said before Ill accept anything only, before I understood it and before Ill even try to understand it, Ill challenge the knowledge that I have. i.e. something I have understood before and accepted.

However I do like the summary of your last paragraph. Thank you.

By the way, ArwenLune, please take note of people (K8t and rona) on touching, pushing an animal from yourself.

Anyway, I have really enjoyed these debates and challenges but it is time to process them now and learn.

Thank you all for participating. :smile5:


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

The Dog Butler said:


> By the way, ArwenLune, please take note of people (K8t and rona) on touching, pushing an animal from yourself.


Oh, Mister Butler!  It might surprise you that more people than just ArwenLune are reading this thread, whether they choose to answer or not! Gosh! in some other debates we've had - long before you landed here - we have found common ground and understanding on more than a few issues! We even alerted the media on a few occasions!


The Dog Butler said:


> Thank you all for participating.


.... I just love your grandmother's eggs.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

The Dog Butler said:


> Anyway, I have really enjoyed these debates and challenges but it is time to process them now and learn.
> 
> Thank you all for participating. :smile5:


You are very welcome and please do come back for more discussion if there is anything else that you want to chat about.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

The Dog Butler said:


> Terry, what are the known cons of reward based training?


there are very few, butler - 
thats why it is so much *safer* especially for novices - it is so easy to get punishment wrong, whereas it is simple to get pos-R right. 
and... even if U get pos-R *wrong*... the potential for any serious fallout is vanishingly small. :thumbsup:

the down sides? 
* INCONSISTENCY which humans are famous for - sadly, *random rewards create the strongest memory in behavior - * 
thats why gamblers are so addicted, they get randomly rewarded. :wink: 
so... having Ur Auntie come visit, who is simply dotty about dogs + allows the dog to jump-up on her for affectionate petting 
+ lots of fuss... is a disaster. 
because Auntie does not CUE the dog to jump-up - and does not allow it all the time - 
only if the dog is not muddy, and she is not in dressy clothes.  
*perfect storm - * 
she LETS the dog try it on, and THEN allows it, or shoves them away playfully.

in a week, the dog (who had *finally!* stopped jumping...) will leap on anybody who gets closer than 6-ft.  
and U will want to kill Ur dearly-loved Auntie - because it TAKES * LONGER to eradicate a randomly-rewarded behavior, 
than it does to extinguish a reliably-cued + trained one! :mad5:

* rewarding the wrong-thing... 
which is really no different than CLICKing the wrong-thing, in that eliminating a future reward will cause the behavior to fade-away + die (called *extinction* of the behavior).

* eliminating SELF-rewarding behaviors - 
barking, chasing, biting, chewing, digging, counter-surfing, etc. 
these are mostly MANAGEMENT - preventing the behavior - 
*don;t let the dog bolt out the front door, duh... * 
THEN training an alternative... 
_ wait for ME to exit the door, and i will cue U to follow... _.

Counter-Surfing BTW is a HUMAN training problem, IMO. 
U leave it out? Ur problem, Ur failing - don;t punish the dog, big-brain. 

cheers, 
--- terry


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

The Dog Butler said:


> [ArwenLune]
> To the best of my knowledge, which you heard numerous times a jab delivers a message that I don't like what you are doing, which supposed to imitate a snap if not neck anymore, then a muzzle.


It's meant to be painful or at least unpleasant. If it wasn't, how could it have any effect?



> Of course I've seen the video you posted. Yes the dog wants a toy, but obviously there was a lot of work done with the dog before it trotted so graciously next to Yin for a toy.


Previous work, yes, but nothing more complicated than what the video showed: as long as the leash is tight, the handler does not move and the dog does not get what it wants. As soon as the leash is loose, the handler moves and the dog gets (toward) what it wants. Ding ding, goes the clue-bell in the dog's head - if I want that toy, I need to walk so the leash is loose or we'll never get there!
Dr Yin has further specified this to a nice heeling position, but the principle will work for any dog as long as you're consistent during any leash time and never move when the leash is tight.



> All I said in the last paragraph is that I disagree calling person a bully who is using instinctive methods against *an animal that bullies him in the first place*, prior having no knowledge that there are other ways.


But he isn't bullying you. He's not mounting your leg because he thinks that'll get a nice rise out of you, or to annoy you, or any other human concepts like that.

He's just following his instincts.

This is one of the saddest things I see coming out of Cesar Millan's style of thinking of dogs - the idea that everything they do that doesn't fit with what we want, must be happening because the dog wants to frustrate/annoy/control/dominate us. It's almost the assumption that dogs COULD be perfectly adapted to living with us monkeys, but they just don't feel like it, and must be forced/intimidated into submission.

A dog in a human household is living with aliens. He'll need to learn, and be taught, how to behave in a household of aliens. He'll make mistakes along the way, and instead of assuming deliberate intent behind his mistakes, I think it's fairer to assume that he doesn't know better, or that the motivation for doing better isn't clear enough.



> By the way, ArwenLune, please take note of people (K8t and rona) on touching, pushing an animal from yourself.


I've seen, and I think some kinds of touch are reflexive for monkeys (humans) - pushing something we don't like away from us is one of them. It just doesn't tend to be very effective with dogs because they push back!

My reaction was about 'jabbing'.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ArwenLune said:


> This is one of the saddest things I see coming out of Cesar Millan's style of thinking (about) dogs - the idea that everything they do that doesn't fit with what we want, must be happening because the dog wants to frustrate/annoy/control/dominate us. It's almost the assumption that *dogs COULD be perfectly adapted to living with us monkeys, but they just don't feel like it, and must be forced / intimidated into submission.*
> 
> A dog in a human household is living with aliens.
> S/he'll need to learn, and be taught, how to behave in a household of aliens. S/he'll make mistakes along the way, and instead of assuming deliberate intent behind the mistakes, I think it's fairer to assume that s/he doesn't know better, or that the motivation for doing better isn't clear enough.


* > click! < * have a sweetie... (offers a bag of mixed candies...)

Excellent explanation - very-clear + very logical! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

ArwenLune said:


> It's almost the assumption that dogs COULD be perfectly adapted to living with us monkeys, but they just don't feel like it, and must be forced/intimidated into submission.
> 
> A dog in a human household is living with aliens. He'll need to learn, and be taught, how to behave in a household of aliens. He'll make mistakes along the way, and instead of assuming deliberate intent behind his mistakes, I think it's fairer to assume that he doesn't know better, or that the motivation for doing better isn't clear enough.


This is one of the most insightful and original ways that I have ever seen this idea written - thank you for saying that in that way :smile5:


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2010)

I cannot write long essays on the subject of dog training, as it isn't a passion of mine, but from what I have read here, none of you will ever talk outside your own beliefs on the methods for training.
Each dog is an individual, I can't see that a sweeping statement could apply to every single dog.
Yes reward based training is obviously the best way to go, but I believe that on occasion the odd negative reaction can work wonders on the right type of dog.
I'm not saying that it should be used as the norm, but if your dog is not responding because you are too predictable it can sometimes have good effect.
You trainers must know that a dog will always behave better when you take over from the owner because the dog doesn't know what to expect and is more wary or confused in your presence.
A lot will then go home and revert to previous behaviour, getting the owner to change behaviour is nearly always the key.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

rona said:


> A lot will then go home and revert to previous behaviour, getting the owner to change behaviour is nearly always the key.


Absolutely, which is why I have never trained the owners' dog for them. I have always educated the owner and then supported them whilst they put it into practice.


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

I agree with Rona as a 'trainer' I will never ever close my mind to any form of communication unless it's obviously cruel. I will use my preferred methods but if those don't work, I'll try less preferred. Maybe because I once worked in a situation where dogs died if I didn't do my job properly I will try any and all methods before I have to give up. Lucky those who have the luxury of time to train dogs but sadly it's not the case always and if me jabbing a dog in the side to say 'hey mate listen' means that dog goes back to his kennel at night then by god I'll do it. 

I no longer work in that situation and hope never to again but I will not change my opinion that in some cases we cannot stick to our principles but have to try alternatives in order to succeed cos it's not our life that depends on it. :nonod:


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

JSR said:


> I agree with Rona as a 'trainer' I will never ever close my mind to any form of communication unless it's obviously cruel. I will use my preferred methods but if those don't work, I'll try less preferred. Maybe because I once worked in a situation where dogs died if I didn't do my job properly I will try any and all methods before I have to give up. Lucky those who have the luxury of time to train dogs but sadly it's not the case always and if me jabbing a dog in the side to say 'hey mate listen' means that dog goes back to his kennel at night then by god I'll do it.
> 
> I no longer work in that situation and hope never to again but I will not change my opinion that in some cases we cannot stick to our principles but have to try alternatives in order to succeed cos it's not our life that depends on it. :nonod:


I think that's a valid point. I remember one of the trainers on here commenting that in extreme cases she'd use a prong collar, and if used correctly and as _a last resort_, it could prove effective. I'm sure that you're both right in saying that there might extreme situations where you, _as experienced trainers / handlers_, have to try anything that might work.

But my concern with this thread is that, after having watched the DW, people may casually adopt the neck jab as simply another routine component of their training regime; and they simply don't _need _to do this.


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

Inkdog said:


> But my concern with this thread is that, after having watched the DW, people may casually adopt the neck jab as simply another routine component of their training regime; and they simply dont _need _to do this.


Oh absolutely I agree! I would never ever want someone to watch CM and think 'aha that's what I need to do!' I've always said his program is extreamly dangerous to the average dog owner. It should be viewed in the same way as watching Motor Sport....interesting to watch but would never drive my own car in that manner.


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

I should also add, JSR, that when you gave the dog a jab you were probably simply getting it's attention. In no way would you say, I hope , that you were turning your hand into a mouth!


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

Inkdog said:


> I should also add, JSR, that when you gave the dog a jab you were probably simply getting it's attention. I no way would you say, I hope , that you were turning your hand into a mouth!


:laugh: No with me it's more like 'Oy mate lets have some attention in this direction please!' In the same way I'd grab a friends arm if I was talking and they were ignoring me (which happens often..I like a waffle you know!!).


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

I agree with Rona and JSR. Which is why I haven't voted yet. Erring on No. 2 on the other thread, but that would depend on tools!!!!

Personally, I am a very 'hands off' trainer for actual training, and certainly pushing a dog into something is definately no good, (I push you, you will push back - it just doesn't work!), having said that I use my hands sometimes, like JSR, maybe to get a dogs attention, or interput a behaviour (that I know sounds like a complete contradictory of terms now!!, but I think most will understand what I mean). 

I also use my body, my legs etc., to touch a dog by blocking. None of which are harmful or painful. I will push my dogs off when they are trying to pester for a sandwich I am eating, and take a collar and move my dog away from the poo she is eating outside if she doesn't do as I ask first time, but I am not a fan of grabbing dogs to get them off things generally and certainly would never advocate an owner to grab their dog at any time.

What Rona said about what works for one dog will not work for all, is so true for example, back in 1985 I got my first dog a BC (sorry Terry!!!), I went to a training class that was very positive in using rewards, fun etc. etc., but check chains ('we don't call them choke chains unless they are used incorrecly"!!!!), were used as the norm. To teach a dog the instant down, you put your foot on the lead and pressed down, they would also teach a 'force' retrieve/hold. I had a very strong willed, pushy dog, who coped with this (I cringe at some of the things I did now, but it was all pretty standard stuff back then). I then met a guy called Roy Hunter, who taught me how to get (my now totally switched off dog to hold anything), to retrieve, using games and play. It totally changed my training. John Fisher, who taught me to use training discs! (another no no now!), was doing a lot of luring and it was obvious the 'hands off' approach was a lot more sustainable and that was it for me the way to go, my BC was probably very thankful!

Because of my dogs personality, luckily for me, she coped with some of the training methods I used. On the other hand, my second dog another BC, 6 years later, was totally screwed up, would bite you as soon as look at you (although he had good bite inhibition most of the time) If I had done some of the things I did with my bitch, he would have been horrendous and wouldn't have avoided being PTS a second time. (there is a photo on here somewhere looking impressive!!!(not)). He benefited so much from my enlightenment - you just can't treat aggression with aggression.

However, I would never say never and will use anything that is available to me, which I feel may be appropriate for that particular dog and problem. I wouldn't use a shock collar, a prong collar and haven't even handled a check chain for over 10 years now, maybe more!

Positive is much better, much more likely to establish voluntary behaviour and should always be a first choice, but like JSR it depends very much on the dog and the circumstances at the time.

I can't be responsible for what people see on TV, only tell them my experience and enourage them in the right direction.

Kate


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

rona said:


> ...getting the owner to change behaviour is nearly always the key.


hey, rona! :--) 
i would only *slightly* edit this, + it would be a truism of dog-training: 
* ...getting the owner to change behaviour is always the key.* 
it is not nearly-always, but simply - Always. :thumbsup:

if U keep doing the same thing... U get the same results.  
one definition of insanity is, _doing exactly the same thing, and expecting a different result._ 
since i realize that many owners keep doing [whatever supposed interruption, punishment, etc they think works] 
and the dog keeps repeating the same unwanted behavior, that means that many dog-owners are not sane  at least about their dogs behavior, they aren;t :laugh:

is this exchange familiar? or its many variants? 
dog in yard barks... for 30 to 45 secs, at passerby. passerby reaches next lot, dog ceases. 
woman yells out open-window: _Oi! shurrup! _ (dog had stopped barking by the time she spoke...) 
dog in yard barks... for 30 to 45-secs, at bicyclist. bicyclist out of sight - dog ceases. 
_ Oi! SHUT UP! _ 
dog in yard barks... for 30 to 45-secs, at kid on skateboard. sk8boarder out of sight - dog ceases. 
_ OI! i said SHUT the F- UP!_ 
and so on... 

unwanted behavior; ineffectual reaction; unwanted behavior... 
this conversation can go on for the life of the dog. :nonod: 
wouldn;t it make sense to change what WE are doing, to change what the dog does? 
(from the evidence of human-behavior, no; but logically?  i think Yes.)

i think its a doggone shame that dogs + humans get so practiced at pushing one anothers buttons... 
it does not have to be that way. :wink: all behavior being a conversation, 
* if i change Mine - the replying behavior must change. *

what could change in that scenario? 
* better timing? _ shout at the dog DURING the barking... _ 
* change interruptor? _ call the dogs Name after just TWO barks... and broadcast treats._ 
the dog interrupts their own barks to find + hoover the goodies up... 
by which time, the instigating stimulus has gone. 
and after a half-dozen repeats, the dog is down to 4 or 5 barks, and *expects* the treats. 
soon its a default - dogs barks once or twice, runs near the door, owner drops ONE treat. 
_relative peace reigns..._

there are many, many other choices - but to keep doing what one is doing, is not logical.  
cheers, 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Inkdog said:


> ...after having watched the DW, *people may casually adopt the neck jab as simply another routine component* of their training regime; and they simply dont *need *to do this.


hey, inky! :--) 
what s/he said, LOL... :thumbsup:

a trainer-friend in New-England was driven so nutz by the incessant _Shht! Tsst! Psst! Ahhh! Grrr!_ and neck-pokes or butt-taps or leash-jerks on PUPPIES in baby-class, she posted a Big Bold Sign on the wall of the lobby... 
*beyond this doorway, NO Dog-Whisperer methods or tools are permitted. *
it had gotten so bad, class members were complaining they could not *hear her* above the interruptions, 
and the interruptors were tossed-out for EVERY conceivable or in-conceivable behavior - 
_ puppy looks at another pup, wags tail... _ Tsst! / poke... 
_ pup sees another pup play-bow toward him - and pulls slightly while tail-wagging... _ Eh-Eh-Eh! (*tap* butt with foot)...

her classes are no more than 10 to 12 handlers + pups - 
but the interruptions were almost non-stop, with pups of 8 to 12-WO. :nonod: 
i fail to see what the owners thought this would achieve.


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

i agree with you here L4L, those people had NO business owning a pup if they were going to train that way.

just because they see him treat a large, agressive dog that way on tv, does not mean they should use it on an innocent puppy. they are GOING to be rambunctious and playful, and if you raise them properly, you will never have problems like are shown on the DW anyways.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> hey, inky! :--)
> a trainer-friend in New-England was driven so nutz by the incessant _Shht! Tsst! Psst! Ahhh! Grrr!_ and neck-pokes or butt-taps or leash-jerks on PUPPIES in baby-class, she posted a Big Bold Sign on the wall of the lobby...
> *beyond this doorway, NO Dog-Whisperer methods or tools are permitted. *
> it had gotten so bad, class members were complaining they could not *hear her* above the interruptions,
> ...


Friend of mine over here in UK got fed up of that happening in her classes too. I remember sitting in her class with my collie when he was a pup and a woman with a Bernese Mountain dog pup Tsssting at her for every slight thing, so much so that it drove me barmy and I had to turn and glare at her.  Plus the amount of people who wanted their dogs to do things simply because they said so and not for a treat or toy reward. My friends answer to that was ''Would you want to work for nothing?''

I do wish that a decent and knowledgable trainer would hit our screens prime time with a dog training programme - not for entertainment but for education!


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> Friend of mine over here in UK got fed up of that happening in her classes too. I remember sitting in her class with my collie when he was a pup and a woman with a Bernese Mountain dog pup Tsssting at her for every slight thing, so much so that it drove me barmy and I had to turn and glare at her.  Plus the amount of people who wanted their dogs to do things simply because they said so and not for a treat or toy reward. My friends answer to that was ''Would you want to work for nothing?''
> 
> I do wish that a decent and knowledgable trainer would hit our screens prime time with a dog training programme - not for entertainment but for education!


Arh but that wouldn't cause controversy and keep the ratings up 
Do you think these people who make these programmes, give a jot about the dogs Pfff course they don't. They are after ratings


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> re carolineH -
> _ I do wish that a decent and knowledgable trainer would hit our (TV)screens prime time with a dog training programme -
> not for entertainment but for education! _


from Ur lips to DoGs ear... 


rona said:


> Arh but that wouldn't cause controversy and keep the ratings up
> Do you think these people who make these programmes, give a jot about the dogs Pfff course they don't. They are after ratings


sadly very true... :thumbdown: drama is a big-draw - 
these so-called reality-TV productions are IMO ridiculous, i watched maybe 3? 4? total of 2 or 3 versions, 
and quit the genre cold; the Greatest American Dog series on Animal-Planet was a huge let-down... 
asking a dog to STAND their GROUND when charged by an elephant?! _oh yeah, happens all the time, i was charged by a bull 
in musth on Main-St just last week...*Not!*_

besides which any dog who was so stoopid as to stand as a target for ANY aggressively (or playfully) charging animal 
(like my stud-colt!) would not live long.  
its dramatic - its different? _it sells._ (shrug) humans... yeesh.


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