# Afghanistan



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

It must be terrifying when it comes to this to get out of your country.....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-58226712


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## teddylion (Oct 16, 2019)

Absolutely horrendous. There is footage of stowaways falling to their deaths from the plane.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

The pictures on the news are truly heartbreaking. Women will once again lose all rights. I can’t even imagine how unsafe people must be feeling.


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## bunnygeek (Jul 24, 2018)

This is heartbreaking, Afghanistan's first female mayor 'I'm waiting for Taliban to come for people like me and kill me'
https://inews.co.uk/news/world/afghanistans-first-female-mayor-waiting-taliban-come-kill-her-1152127
They assassinated her father last year after they failed to assassinate her 

A horrendous situation.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

Is this the UK’s Vietnam?


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

The trouble is, the Afghans don't seem prepared to fight for the place, 300,000 of their forces were trained and equipped by the US. And they have just melted away.

Some have said it's because they weren't being paid, so even the government didn't think it was worth fighting.

What an absolute mess. I feel for the women and girls who will be taken back to the dark ages, as well as the forces who lost life in limb over the last 20 years, for what appears to now be nothing. Terrible.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

MilleD said:


> The trouble is, the Afghans don't seem prepared to fight for the place, 300,000 of their forces were trained and equipped by the US. And they have just melted away.
> 
> Some have said it's because they weren't being paid, so even the government didn't think it was worth fighting.
> 
> What an absolute mess. I feel for the women and girls who will be taken back to the dark ages, as well as the forces who lost life in limb over the last 20 years, for what appears to now be nothing. Terrible.


I don't think it's as easy as that tho. There is so much corruption there & little support for those who were fighting against the Taliban. I was listening to R4 yesterday where a previous British soldier was discussing just how these people were in fear for their lives yet nothing really was implemented for a long term solution. The Taliban has always been more prevalent in rural areas & has never been defeated.

It is a mess & the pictures of desperate people are heart-breaking. It must be devastating for those who did so much to help & risk their lives to see this happening. I honestly can't imagine how terrifying it must be for people there


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

They are living through a nightmare. Those poor people


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Cleo38 said:


> I don't think it's as easy as that tho. There is so much corruption there *& little support for those who were fighting against the Taliban*. I was listening to R4 yesterday where a previous British soldier was discussing just how these people were in fear for their lives yet nothing really was implemented for a long term solution. The Taliban has always been more prevalent in rural areas & has never been defeated.


So support _for _the Taliban? This is what I don't understand, are most of the country happy the Taliban will be in charge again (slightly differently won to the filling of the power void in the 80s)?

If not, why didn't they support those fighting them?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

MilleD said:


> So support _for _the Taliban? This is what I don't understand, are most of the country happy the Taliban will be in charge again (slightly differently won to the filling of the power void in the 80s)?
> 
> If not, why didn't they support those fighting them?


The history of war in Afghanistan is very complex & m not sure anyone, unless they are well read on this subject, fully understands what has gone on. I think some areas of the country will be supportive of the Taliban as they were against the more secular government of the 80's.

The Taliban has always been a threat & has always had support in some areas of the country throughout the past 20yrs despite efforts to defeat them. Don't forget that the US (as well as other countries) armed the Taliban during the Soviet/Afghan war so it's a very complex situation. I don't know what the answers are at all but I don't believe we should sit back & do nothing to help


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Cleo38 said:


> The history of war in Afghanistan is very complex & m not sure anyone, unless they are well read on this subject, fully understands what has gone on. I think some areas of the country will be supportive of the Taliban as they were against the more secular government of the 80's.
> 
> The Taliban has always been a threat & has always had support in some areas of the country throughout the past 20yrs despite efforts to defeat them. Don't forget that the US (as well as other countries) armed the Taliban during the Soviet/Afghan war so it's a very complex situation. I don't know what the answers are at all but I don't believe we should sit back & do nothing to help


I kind of agree, but if we've (US/UK/Nato) had this little success in 20 years for it to revert back just this quickly, I don't really know what we can do.

Short of a Western occupation ad infinitum and you can guarantee that if there were any terrorist attacks on western soil, occupation would be blamed.

I'm really not sure what the answer is, or if there is one. Perhaps just offering a home to anyone who can't live under it's regime. But that comes with it's own risks too.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

MilleD said:


> I kind of agree, but if we've (US/UK/Nato) had this little success in 20 years for it to revert back just this quickly, I don't really know what we can do.
> 
> Short of a Western occupation ad infinitum and you can guarantee that if there were any terrorist attacks on western soil, occupation would be blamed.
> 
> I'm really not sure what the answer is, or if there is one. Perhaps just offering a home to anyone who can't live under it's regime. But that comes with it's own risks too.


I wonder what will happen to people fleeing (again) & what countries will offer help. From what I have read it seems that several countries aren't evacuating their embassies & are willing to negotiate with the Taliban. It will be interesting to see what help our government decides to offer.

I've been reading about it most of the afternoon, not something I usually do tbh (I hardly watch the news as it's so depressing) but it makes me feel so lucky that I live in a country where I have so much freedom.


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## Guest (Aug 16, 2021)

The Taliban are not the Muhajideen, so were not to my understanding previously funded by the US.
But it is possible some Muhajideen joined the Taliban later when they formed.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-south-asia-11451718


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## daveos (May 14, 2017)

What a complete mess the poor desperate people who don't want to go back to the Stone Age,If I lived there I would be desperate to escape what can be done though when the Afghan army just basically laid down arms and did not even put up a fight.
I can't see the USA and the UK going back or NATO for that matter it would be a disaster with a great loss of life and with Pakistan supporting the Taliban as they always have supplying arms and hiding key people it would not ever be winnable such a shame for the majority who want democracy.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

What a mess. Really feel for the people , so frightening for them. The Taliban are killing anyone connected to the UK and US army., They've had 20 years of freedom and they have to go back to living an awful life. A bit OT , many women have to cover up in the uk , young girls do too and they have to wear leggings and arm coverings under their school uniform . They are not allowed to dance or sing .


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I hope to God this man is ok and that he can get visas for his fellow workers. .

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ine-Commando-refuses-leave-workers-Kabul.html
"A former Royal Marine commando who runs a charity in Kabul has vowed to stay on until he can secure British visas for his Afghan staff.

Paul 'Pen' Farthing said he refuses to leave his local workers, who fear they will be killed by the Taliban for working with Westerners.

Mr Farthing, 52, served in Helmand and saw two of his comrades killed fighting the group who are now perilously close to the capital."

He works for an animal charity.


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## daveos (May 14, 2017)

Its getting worse Taliban going door to door with targeted killings the Islamic world is very quite to condemn.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I heard a large plane come into Brize Norton last night and I wondered if it was coming from Kabul. Reading and watching the news looks like it was.
Awful situation


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

MilleD said:


> The trouble is, the Afghans don't seem prepared to fight for the place, 300,000 of their forces were trained and equipped by the US. And they have just melted away.


I wonder if it's because they didn't "believe" in the whole thing. Afghanistan has such diverse factions within it, that it would be better split into separate countries.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I'm wary of turning the news on. I don't want to see the fear in those peoples faces


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Horrible situation. I cant imagine the kind of human rights violations that will now happen, esp those poor people who have fought for/been vocal about more liberal lifestyles and now must be terrified.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

stuaz said:


> I wonder if it's because they didn't "believe" in the whole thing. Afghanistan has such diverse factions within it, that it would be better split into separate countries.


The Taliban aren't exactly the kind of people who care about borders, though...


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Jesthar said:


> The Taliban aren't exactly the kind of people who care about borders, though...


i was referring to the soldiers of the Afghan army, not the Taliban.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Donald Trump had a lot to answer for. I believe he authorised Barahan’s release from the Pakistan jail where he was held - three years ago and celebrated him signing the Doha agreement? 

It’s incredibly complicated and terrifying.


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## margy (Dec 9, 2018)

My son was in the Signals and did a tour in Afghanistan in 2007. He was due to go back and left the army because he couldn't face it. It really affected him and he had to have therapy for the things he witnessed there. If it damaged him then imagine what it must be doing now to those poor people who have to live there.


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## Pawscrossed (Jul 2, 2013)

Amnesty and many other organisations are saying it was inevitable and our government was warned. It's hardly reassuring then to see that Boris and Rabb both did their usual trick of running away, both went on holiday on Saturday and had to be called back.


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## Pawscrossed (Jul 2, 2013)

margy said:


> My son was in the Signals and did a tour in Afghanistan in 2007. He was due to go back and left the army because he couldn't face it. It really affected him and he had to have therapy for the things he witnessed there. If it damaged him then imagine what it must be doing now to those poor people who have to live there.


I am so sorry. One can't imagine it.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Pawscrossed said:


> Amnesty and many other organisations are saying it was inevitable and our government was warned. It's hardly reassuring then to see that Boris and Rabb both did their usual trick of running away, both went on holiday on Saturday and had to be called back.


In fairness, no-one thought it would happen this quickly. They were predicting a month.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Turkey are now building a wall to keep refugees out. 

Good news that they female news reporters are still presenting and interviewing on TV. 

I think everyone is devastated that the progress and everything they worked for and achieved has gone up in smoke (almost literally).


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Sarah H said:


> I think everyone is devastated that the progress and everything they worked for and achieved has gone up in smoke (almost literally).


20 years and so many life's wasted and for what.

I was surprised how fast it happen, I can't believe that they just seemed to have just walk straight in.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Happy Paws2 said:


> I was surprised how fast it happen, I can't believe that they just seemed to have just walk straight in.


 What amazes me (and, I imagine, many others) is how a ''superpower'' like America with all the equipment and military acuity they have at their disposal can just be put to rout by what most people imagine is a glorified gang of bandits. It beggars belief.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Calvine said:


> What amazes me (and, I imagine, many others) is how a ''superpower'' like America with all the equipment and military acuity they have at their disposal can just be put to rout by what most people imagine is a glorified gang of bandits. It beggars belief.


They haven't been put to rout though have they? They agreed withdrawal terms. And withdrew.

And perhaps the Taliban may have fibbed a little it what they agreed?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Calvine said:


> What amazes me (and, I imagine, many others) is how a ''superpower'' like America with all the equipment and military acuity they have at their disposal can just be put to rout by what most people imagine is a glorified gang of bandits. It beggars belief.


From what I have been reading it seems that many of the army/police hadn't been paid in months. Many had been involved in holding off the Taliban in certain areas yet had no food/water so were unable to continue in their fight. They were offered money by the Taliban for their weapons & to join them ... probably an offer they couldn't turn down considering the circumstances & the fact they knew that after Trumps deal they knew that the withdrawal of US/UK troops would leave them vulnerable again.

Articles:

Why didn't they fight? Speed of Afghan collapse surprised even the Taliban (france24.com)
Afghanistan: Why is there a war? - BBC News
(72) How did Taliban gain ground so quickly? (cnn.com)


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> From what I have been reading it seems that many of the army/police hadn't been paid in months. Many had been involved in holding off the Taliban in certain areas yet had no food/water so were unable to continue in their fight. They were offered money by the Taliban for their weapons & to join them ... probably an offer they couldn't turn down considering the circumstances & the fact they knew that after Trumps deal they knew that the withdrawal of US/UK troops would leave them vulnerable again.
> 
> Articles:
> 
> ...


I read this too and something else that said that much of the money given to officials by I believe the US/UK governments to pay their troops and police was siphoned off to afghan officials never to be seen again.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Siskin said:


> I read this too and something else that said that much of the money given to officials by I believe the US/UK governments to pay their troops and police was siphoned off to afghan officials never to be seen again.


Disgusting. And those same people would expect folks to come to their aid.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

I have to say, I found the fact that the Biden administration chose the 20th anniversary of 9/11 as the withdrawal deadline to be pretty distateful. Maybe I'm missing something.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

MilleD said:


> They haven't been put to rout though have they?


I rather got the impression that the withdrawal was ''untimely soon'' (ie. they left in a hurry).


MilleD said:


> I found the fact that the Biden administration chose the 20th anniversary of 9/11 as the withdrawal deadline to be pretty distateful


I believe they thought the American people would find it ''significant'' enough to be a ''good thing''. God knows what goes on in their minds. I wonder what the Donald is thinking and saying! In 2020, America spent $778 billion on their military (about 40% of world spending).


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

MilleD said:


> They haven't been put to rout though have they? They agreed withdrawal terms. And withdrew.
> 
> *And perhaps the Taliban may have fibbed a little it what they agreed?*


Which shouldn't have come as a surprise to anyone, really. After all, the Taliban are some of the most fundamental of Islamic fundamentally extremists, and as such tend to follow the most fundamental and extreme interpretations of the tenets of islam. One of which is that it is OK to deceive your enemy until you are strong enough to overcome them. No prizes for guessing how the Taliban choose to interpret that...


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## daveos (May 14, 2017)

UK ministers in talks to house tens of thousands Afghans in the UK similar to what we did for Syrians, This is complete madness I know what has happened is terrible but we are full at breaking point ourselves NHS waiting times at a record high major shortage of social housing etc we have enough illegals coming into Kent each day now this the people should surely be relocated into nearby safe Muslim countries where they have a similar culture even Macron is worried about what could happen in France and Europe.
George w Bush and Tony Blair have a lot to answer for.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Jesthar said:


> Which shouldn't have come as a surprise to anyone, really. After all, the Taliban are some of the most fundamental of Islamic fundamentally extremists, and as such tend to follow the most fundamental and extreme interpretations of the tenets of islam. One of which is that it is OK to deceive your enemy until you are strong enough to overcome them. No prizes for guessing how the Taliban choose to interpret that...


Which is why I used the word 'fibbed'. I was being facetious


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

daveos said:


> UK ministers in talks to house tens of thousands Afghans in the UK similar to what we did for Syrians, This is complete madness I know what has happened is terrible but we are full at breaking point ourselves NHS waiting times at a record high major shortage of social housing etc we have enough illegals coming into Kent each day now this the people should surely be relocated into nearby safe Muslim countries where they have a similar culture even Macron is worried about what could happen in France and Europe.
> George w Bush and Tony Blair have a lot to answer for.


A lot of the people I believe we would be looking to take are those who have worked with British people and institutions (military, charitable, educational, political) and are now in mortal danger from people who regard working with westerners as treason of the highest order. If caught, immediately being put up against a wall and shot would be the BEST they could hope for.

Personally I think those people deserve rather more than "Thanks for your help, we're off now - good luck!"

As to the rest, the NHS is at breaking point because of systematic underfunding by successive governments, we have a shortage of social housing for similar reasons, and the local Islamic countries are reluctant to get involved for many reasons (some good, some not), but at the top of the list is not wanting to become a target for the Taliban themselves by helping people the Taliban regard as infidels. Many refugees are already being met with persecution due to that fear, and Turkey has done a Trump and started building a wall to keep refugees heading in that direction out.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Boxer123 said:


> Women will once again lose all rights





bunnygeek said:


> This is heartbreaking, Afghanistan's first female mayor 'I'm waiting for Taliban to come for people like me and kill me'


You have to wonder what Kamala Harris thinks of all this. The Biden administration was expected to herald an era of female ''empowerment'' (for want of a better word) with her election as VP.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2021)

I think the Afghan army as a paid force really has no heart or unity. Afghanistan is made up of various tribal/ethnic regions. When they decide as individuals with a common cause to fight, they can do very well.
I wish this man the best of luck:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ident-rally-anti-Taliban-forces-Panjshir.html

Keep in mind the Taliban are mostly Afghans of various backgrounds but heavily influenced by Wahhabism out of Saudi. The Islam practiced by Muslims in Afghanistan was previously not so strict or extreme.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

It really makes you think doesnt it? We are always complaining about wokeism and 'political correctness gone mad' and most of the time we dont truly appreciate how lucky we are to be born into countries where certain freedoms and rights are a given.
I really cant imagine living somewhere where those freedom and rights could be taken away any second.

It doesnt sound like outside forces were really going to do much to help the longterm situation but still the withdrawal also sounds like it is being handled badly by the US.


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## daveos (May 14, 2017)

Jesthar said:


> A lot of the people I believe we would be looking to take are those who have worked with British people and institutions (military, charitable, educational, political) and are now in mortal danger from people who regard working with westerners as treason of the highest order. If caught, immediately being put up against a wall and shot would be the BEST they could hope for.
> 
> Personally I think those people deserve rather more than "Thanks for your help, we're off now - good luck!"
> 
> As to the rest, the NHS is at breaking point because of systematic underfunding by successive governments, we have a shortage of social housing for similar reasons, and the local Islamic countries are reluctant to get involved for many reasons (some good, some not), but at the top of the list is not wanting to become a target for the Taliban themselves by helping people the Taliban regard as infidels. Many refugees are already being met with persecution due to that fear, and Turkey has done a Trump and started building a wall to keep refugees heading in that direction out.


Hope you are right we could be putting ourselves in danger a real Trojan horse seeking revenge Turkey has right idea I'm afraid they were near IS a while ago remember.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

I can't really get my head around the scale of all this. And it does worry me (rightly or not) that the Taliban will make it over here and kill innocent people (well, people in general actually).
When there have been terrorist attacks in the western world, especially England it does send me into a worry.
Can't imagine what the people in Afghanistan are thinking, bloody terrifying.


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## daveos (May 14, 2017)

Beth78 said:


> I can't really get my head around the scale of all this. And it does worry me (rightly or not) that the Taliban will make it over here and kill innocent people (well, people in general actually).
> When there have been terrorist attacks in the western world, especially England it does send me into a worry.
> Can't imagine what the people in Afghanistan are thinking, bloody terrifying.


I have exactly the same fears as you that we will see attacks over here we need to be VERY careful before we allow anybody over into the UK, Afghanistan is a very complicated country we don't really know who is who a lot of double agents who go to the highest bidder.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

daveos said:


> I have exactly the same fears as you that we will see attacks over here we need to be VERY careful before we allow anybody over into the UK, Afghanistan is a very complicated country we don't really know who is who a lot of double agents who go to the highest bidder.


Got any sources for that? Quite frankly, if terrorists want to attack anywhere they have more effective ways of doing it than masquerading as refugees. The main time they prefer to do that is when they want to use a refugee camp as a base to attack a neighbouring country so the refugees become human shields.


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## daveos (May 14, 2017)

J. Dawson said:


> I think the Afghan army as a paid force really has no heart or unity. Afghanistan is made up of various tribal/ethnic regions. When they decide as individuals with a common cause to fight, they can do very well.
> I wish this man the best of luck:
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ident-rally-anti-Taliban-forces-Panjshir.html
> 
> Keep in mind the Taliban are mostly Afghans of various backgrounds but heavily influenced by Wahhabism out of Saudi. The Islam practiced by Muslims in Afghanistan was previously not so strict or extreme.


Very well said the Afghan army put up no fight whatsoever they need to help themselves a bit here if they can be bothered.
As for going to war in 2001 it was Saudi Arabia where the hijackers came from also Bin Laden was Saudi yet they remain a ally wonder why oil maybe the whole thing was a complete waste of time.


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## daveos (May 14, 2017)

Jesthar said:


> Got any sources for that? Quite frankly, if terrorists want to attack anywhere they have more effective ways of doing it than masquerading as refugees. The main time they prefer to do that is when they want to use a refugee camp as a base to attack a neighbouring country so the refugees become human shields.


Can you guarantee all Afghans who come here will be peaceful then? How would terrorirsts attack then coming as a refugee seems a perfect front I'm not saying they all are just I hope we are really careful remember sleeper agents from Russia living normal lives in the USA.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2021)

Actually, if a group such as ISIS wanted to enter the EU or Britain, then yes, masquerading as a refugee who 'lost' their passport is a tactic. Many economic migrants pretend to be from war torn countries. Fake passports or 'lost' are used for cover.

That said, I doubt the Taliban are interested in England @Beth78. 
Other groups such as ISIS yes and ISIS are multi ethnic and from various countries.
To my understanding, the Taliban are interested only in Afghanistan. At least at the moment but I cannot see them likely to become any threat to the UK, they just want their Islamic fiefdom in Afghanistan.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2021)

@daveos 
The Afghans running away from a Taliban controlled government, are not likely to be Islamic radicals bent on destroying the west. 
Once in the West, the danger is radical preachers locally who may turn them against the West.
I would be more worried about hatred being preached locally and non assimilation than I would about someone currently not wanting to live under, what will be in effect an Islamic state (government).


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Terribly important update
https://apple.news/A9SlArEkAQnK1g4Ek1Yzx8g


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> Terribly important update
> https://apple.news/A9SlArEkAQnK1g4Ek1Yzx8g


Many levels of pain eh?


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2021)

MollySmith said:


> Terribly important update
> https://apple.news/A9SlArEkAQnK1g4Ek1Yzx8g


Update: someone needs to feel relevant and with the focus on other things (the fall of Afghanistan and a new refugee crisis) someone thinks, me, me, look at me....facepalm.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Jesthar said:


> A lot of the people I believe we would be looking to take are those who have worked with British people and institutions (military, charitable, educational, political) and are now in mortal danger from people who regard working with westerners as treason of the highest order. If caught, immediately being put up against a wall and shot would be the BEST they could hope for.
> 
> Personally I think those people deserve rather more than "Thanks for your help, we're off now - good luck!"
> 
> As to the rest, the NHS is at breaking point because of systematic underfunding by successive governments, we have a shortage of social housing for similar reasons, and the local Islamic countries are reluctant to get involved for many reasons (some good, some not), but at the top of the list is not wanting to become a target for the Taliban themselves by helping people the Taliban regard as infidels. Many refugees are already being met with persecution due to that fear, and Turkey has done a Trump and started building a wall to keep refugees heading in that direction out.


Well worded and very politely so. I agree.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Siskin said:


> Many levels of pain eh?


You can feel the empathy and experience can't you? 



J. Dawson said:


> Update: someone needs to feel relevant and with the focus on other things (the fall of Afghanistan and a new refugee crisis) someone thinks, me, me, look at me....facepalm.


Hashtag heartbroken


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> You can feel the empathy and experience can't you?
> 
> Hashtag heartbroken


Seeping out from every word:Hilarious


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Siskin said:


> Seeping out from every word:Hilarious


I was worried, until they said something I had no idea what to think.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Taken from a press conference held by the Taliban just over an hour ago/

59 min ago
*Taliban pledge "no violence against women" but say international community "should respect our core values"*
From CNN's Hannah Ritchie and Nada Bashir

Taliban spokesperson Zabihullah Mujahid said Tuesday that there would be "no violence against women" in Afghanistan and assured members of the international community that they "should not be concerned" on this matter, but added that they should respect the Taliban's "core values" on women.

Talking about the rights of women is a change in approach from how the Taliban has approached the issue previously. However, Taliban officials did not go into detail, so the reality of what that will look like remains to be seen.

When the Taliban captured Kabul in 1996, the Sunni Islamist organization put in place strict rules. Women had to wear head-to-toe coverings, weren't allowed to study or work and were forbidden from traveling alone. TV, music and non-Islamic holidays were also banned under their rule at the time.

"Our sisters and mothers - as has been said in Sharia law, which is our value - women are an important part of society," Mujahid said today during a televised press conference from Kabul.

"There will be no violence against women, no discrimination against women within the framework of Islamic law," he continued, adding that the Taliban will "guarantee all their rights within the limits of Islam."
He provided no specific details about what "the framework of Islamic law" meant in their interpretation.

Pressed on whether Afghan women will be able to go to work, Mujahid said that the rights of women will be determined within the framework of Sharia Law.

"Yes, with regards to women, as I stated earlier, it will be within the framework of Sharia Law. In all sectors in society, where they are required, it will be within this framework," Mujahid said.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Magyarmum said:


> Taken from a press conference held by the Taliban just over an hour ago/
> 
> 59 min ago
> *Taliban pledge "no violence against women" but say international community "should respect our core values"*
> ...


I wonder how long that will last, not long I should think


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

MollySmith said:


> Terribly important update
> https://apple.news/A9SlArEkAQnK1g4Ek1Yzx8g


 :Hilarious


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

From Simple Politics


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Girls and women had begun not going to school and work when this all started. Although I'd like to hope they won't be persecuted as the Taliban says, there are some really extreme views amongst the Taliban and certainly there will be some regression. 
I think the fear of terrorism is that the Taliban breeds extremism and hatred, and that's what will come in the future, rather than an immediate threat of fake refugees.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Shameful. Just 5,000 Afghan people to be allowed in the UK by the end of the year. 
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2...r-resettlement-plan?__twitter_impression=true


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> Terribly important update
> https://apple.news/A9SlArEkAQnK1g4Ek1Yzx8g


:Hilarious :Hilarious


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> Terribly important update
> https://apple.news/A9SlArEkAQnK1g4Ek1Yzx8g


It was described by someone as ''word salad'' (polite way of saying 'gibberish'). Anything to stay ''relevant'', eh.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Calvine said:


> It was described by someone as ''word salad'' (polite way of saying 'gibberish'). Anything to stay ''relevant'', eh.


*I believe it was crafted by Boris Johnson* who is coming out with similar irrelevance today. 'We will give every support to those who have helped the United Kingdom'. I don't suppose anyone has reminded him that the Taliban have taken over a different country yet. It's me me me me 

Salad is giving it way to much substance. Cress at best!

*this probably isn't true.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> Salad is giving it way to much substance. Cress at best!


maybe even cabbage or maybe rhubarb


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Oooh Desmond Swayne is back aka Alan B’stard. Reckons that Afghan people should stay and fight. They’re all crawling out today. Desmond was famous for saying Covid was manageable in Jan 2021, pissing off most of the NHS and even Priti Patel. 

I don’t think he’s worthy of food.... maybe a chewy bit of gristle that one has to politely spit out.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Siskin said:


> maybe even cabbage or maybe rhubarb


Rhubarb is nothing without crumble and custard, I am sure there's a riff there!


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## daveos (May 14, 2017)

Britain should never have gone into Afghanistan full stop.
We should not grant asylum until all our own people who need housing are done so first I know it sounds harsh but it is fair as they have paid into the system all of their life.
Also NHS is struggling before anybody shouts about underfunding etc I know I have seen it my own Uncle sadly died last week because of NHS delays thats what makes me angry look after ourselves first.
And also watching ITV news last night it was reported that a number of individuals who could pose a security risk were removed from a flight to Brize Norton how many could slip through.
Also think countries in the Afghan region should take the people as they are more similar with religion and culture.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

daveos said:


> Britain should never have gone into Afghanistan full stop.
> We should not grant asylum until all our own people who need housing are done so first I know it sounds harsh but it is fair as they have paid into the system all of their life.
> Also NHS is struggling before anybody shouts about underfunding etc I know I have seen it my own Uncle sadly died last week because of NHS delays thats what makes me angry look after ourselves first.
> And also watching ITV news last night it was reported that a number of individuals who could pose a security risk were removed from a flight to Brize Norton how many could slip through.
> Also think countries in the Afghan region should take the people as they are more similar with religion and culture.


We are all people. We were lucky enough to be born in a country where we have freedoms, NHS, education. Yes services are under strain I recognise that lots of folk are in unsuitable housing but are still housed.

Not everyone in this country has paid into the system not everyone works. Often due to ill health. Do we send them on their way ? Or do we try and support those who are vulnerable.

Last week we had a mass shooting not by a refugee but a British man. Unfortunately terrorists (I call him a terrorist because he committed the crime due to his hatred of women) are everywhere.

Last time the Taliban were in control women had their fingers cut off for wearing nail polish. People are beheaded and shot for educating women. Girls as young as 10 are taken to be soldiers wives. The abuse they will face I can't even imagine.

If you were living under such a regime would you just stay put or would you fight to get your family somewhere safe?

I don't see us and them I just see terrified people on the news. You wouldn't hang off the back of an aeroplane if you weren't desperate.


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## daveos (May 14, 2017)

Boxer123 said:


> We are all people. We were lucky enough to be born in a country where we have freedoms, NHS, education. Yes services are under strain I recognise that lots of folk are in unsuitable housing but are still housed.
> 
> Not everyone in this country has paid into the system not everyone works. Often due to ill health. Do we send them on their way ? Or do we try and support those who are vulnerable.
> 
> ...


We can't support everybody somebody has to pay for the benefits money does not grow on trees. Arab nations have plenty of money.
The man in Plymouth debatable if a terrorist I will call him that was a lone wolf attacker very disturbing.
The Taliban are doing that all again according to news this morning.
If say me and my family lived in a place run by tyranny say the UK was run by a Taliban style government yes I would leave but I would go somewhere with a similar culture and set of values such as Germany Netherlands Canada Scandinavia etc where we have more in common.
As a gay man I'm very concerned about these people coming here when I know they hate gays and think they should be put to death, Apparently they don't like dogs and see them as a unclean animal.
These people are coming from a very tribal and violent country yes I have my sorrow for there plight but we are full already losing beautiful countryside to build new houses let us have a vote please.


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## daveos (May 14, 2017)

Also remember the Reading terror attack that was done by a Libyan refugee another country we got involved in.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2021)

20,000 people over five years is not a small number.
It is better to go slowly and vet people rather than taking anyone who shows up in a raft with a paid people smuggler... 
Keep in mind, there is not a small number of Afghans in the UK and other western countries already.
I think this was tried with Syrian refugees, to take people in camps - not those (more often males) trying to enter the EU & UK by other means.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

It's about time the West learnt that you can't meddle in other counties politics and win.

They are never going to have the values as us and we'll never change them.


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## daveos (May 14, 2017)

Happy Paws2 said:


> It's about time the West learnt that you can't meddle in other counties politics and win.
> 
> They are never going to have the values as us and we'll never change them.


Agree with you 100 percent on this, It is the culture clash that is a big worry.
Perhaps Tony Blair can house them in his many homes its his mess after all.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

daveos said:


> Agree with you 100 percent on this, It is the culture clash that is a big worry.
> Perhaps Tony Blair can house them in his many homes its his mess after all.


I don't think you can just blame Blair, I think it's arrogance of the West in general that think we are right and everyone else is wrong.


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## daveos (May 14, 2017)

Happy Paws2 said:


> I don't think you can just blame Blair, I think it's arrogance of the West in general that think we are right and everyone else is wrong.


You are right western leaders think they have the right to tell the rest of the world what to do they need to look at problems closer to home.
As for Blair I'm sorry but I hate the man he has a lot of blood on his hands with his reckless invasions playing poodle to the USA we lost hundreds of soldiers plus many severely injured along with mental health problems.


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

Boxer123 said:


> We are all people. We were lucky enough to be born in a country where we have freedoms, NHS, education. Yes services are under strain I recognise that lots of folk are in unsuitable housing but are still housed.
> 
> Not everyone in this country has paid into the system not everyone works. Often due to ill health. Do we send them on their way ? Or do we try and support those who are vulnerable.
> 
> ...


 Well said @Boxer123 I cant even begin to imagine how desperate those poor people must be!


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

daveos said:


> These people are coming from a very tribal and violent country .





Happy Paws2 said:


> It's about time the West learnt that you can't meddle in other counties politics and win.
> They are never going to have the values as us and we'll never change them.


TBF the majority of people who want asylum in other countries are doing so because they dont agree with the Talibans oppressive regime and want the kind of life we are lucky enough to have been given (with no effort on our part!).

Honestly at this point I dont think anybody knows what to do for the best. I mean would it even be better to support the Taliban? (hear me out here!!LOL...:Shy). It seems like the government is currently making all the right noises about a peaceful transition and protecting human rights mainly because they want to be a recognized government on the world stage. Human rights violations are just going to discredit and harm their cause in this instance.
Obviously that would rely on them being able to police their own troops which I dont think they will be able/be willing to do. The people over there will lose some of their freedoms under Sharia law...its just a question of how much.
I know that sounds like a defeatist opinion but at this point the situation is just a s***y stick and the trick will be trying to find the least s****y end to hold it by.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2021)

Interesting read:

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...again-afghanistans-past-threatens-its-present


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

catz4m8z said:


> I mean would it even be better to support the Taliban?


We only know what we read unfortunately (ie what we are told or what they want us to believe) but yes, I did read that the Taliban now is a much watered down version of the original funsters and are wanting a 'peaceful transition'' - whatever their idea of peaceful may be - likely much different from ours. I believe the Taliban used to be funded by the opium trade; not sure if that is still true; also interesting to see that the Taliban still have a Twitter account, which is more than the Donald has.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Important - no honestly this is. No Harry or Meghan here

It's details of the work of two charities - the first with useful context for those who may not understand or are aware of the importance of support for women
https://www.refugeewomen.co.uk/

And Nowzad who help animals
https://www.nowzad.com/


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Boxer123 said:


> We are all people. We were lucky enough to be born in a country where we have freedoms, NHS, education. Yes services are under strain I recognise that lots of folk are in unsuitable housing but are still housed.
> 
> Not everyone in this country has paid into the system not everyone works. Often due to ill health. Do we send them on their way ? Or do we try and support those who are vulnerable.
> 
> ...


well said.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I wanted to add in reply to posts about supporting homeless people (as opposed to 'the homeless', these are _people_), The Big Issue, Mungo's and Shelter who do arguably more than the government to support people (the number of people without housing has increased under this government), all have an inclusive approach. You may not agree but they are far better educated and experienced to give best advice.

There is more on this link here and the Big Issue website. I highly recommend subscribing as an active way to support vendors or buy from them now they are back on the street selling.

https://www.bigissue.com/latest/these-are-the-refugee-charities-in-the-uk/
https://www.bigissue.com/latest/afghanistan-what-can-i-do/
https://www.bigissue.com/latest/gov...ouseholds-into-homelessness-campaigners-warn/
https://twitter.com/johnbirdswords


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Calvine said:


> We only know what we read unfortunately (ie what we are told or what they want us to believe) but yes, I did read that the Taliban now is a much watered down version of the original funsters and are wanting a 'peaceful transition'' - whatever their idea of peaceful may be - likely much different from ours. I believe the Taliban used to be funded by the opium trade; not sure if that is still true; also interesting to see that the Taliban still have a Twitter account, which is more than the Donald has.


You might like to listen to this interview with Professor Amalendu Misra of Lancaster University about how the Taliban has changed over the past 20 years.

https://www.dw.com/en/there-are-two...r&r=1716891613119692&lid=1911392&pm_ln=106399

*'There are two Talibans,' researcher says *


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

I read somewhere that 20,000 refugees equates to 1 person for every 4 towns in the UK. Hardly a lot. 
I can't imagine the fear these people are feeling, especially the women and girls. 
Prices for everything have shot up as well, so people aren't going to be able to afford basic commodities. Not helped by Taliban troops forcing themselves into people's homes and making them feed and house them. 
Really scary stuff.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Calvine said:


> I believe the Taliban used to be funded by the opium trade; not sure if that is still true


The Taliban has a chequered history with the opiate trade. Afghanistan has been the source of up between about 70% and 90% of the world's illegal opiates (as opposed to medical opiates) over the years, accounting for around half their GPD and over 3 million jobs at times. It's worth a lot more than growing food crops, so far more attractive to poor farmers.

The Taliban appear to have initally been opposed to the drug trade, but their leaders gradually changed their mind as a) they believed opium/heroin only harmed non-muslims (as no true muslim would ever take drugs), and b) it brought them in an insane amount of money.

In 2000 when the Taliban were in control of Afghanistan they declared poppy growing and drug traffiking un-islamic and wiped out ovr 95 percent of the 2001 harvest using their usual heavy handed methods. However, that increasingly appears to have been a one year only decree designed to significantly raise prices after two years of bumper harvests, as by the time of the World Trade Centre attack in 2001, cultivation had been allowed to start up again. There are indications that both the Taliban and their associate groups made huge profits due to the tenfold heroin price spike.

However, as the Taliban were deposed in 2002 we'll never know for sure, as the government, corrupt officials and the local warlords all got back into the opium game. The Taliban certainly had a sizeable stash of drugs hidden away, though, that helped sustain them until they managed to get back into the trade themselves.



Calvine said:


> also interesting to see that the Taliban still have a Twitter account, which is more than the Donald has.


One of the worlds most oppressive, violent and fanatical terrorist regimes is still less offensive that Trump? Sounds about right, somehow...!


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Sarah H said:


> I read somewhere that 20,000 refugees equates to 1 person for every 4 towns in the UK. Hardly a lot.
> I can't imagine the fear these people are feeling, especially the women and girls.
> Prices for everything have shot up as well, so people aren't going to be able to afford basic commodities. Not helped by Taliban troops forcing themselves into people's homes and making them feed and house them.
> Really scary stuff.


We're only taking in 3 families in our area, and some people are still moaning


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Gemmaa said:


> We're only taking in 3 families in our area, and some people are still moaning


I saw a post on FB yesterday from a friend with a link to a story regarding taking in people whose lives are at risk & she had written "RIP Great Britain" next to it .... I honestly can't believe that people can be so callous & unfeeling at a time like this, Have they not seen the news? Have they not considered just how terrified these people must be?

I understand there are worries about terrorism & am no way dismissing these concerns as 'racist' but to immediately be against anyone coming here to save their lives I just don't get


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Cleo38 said:


> I saw a post on FB yesterday from a friend with a link to a story regarding taking in people whose lives are at risk & she had written "RIP Great Britain" next to it ....


wow...considering that we only became 'Great' by invading other countries and forcing them to become part of our Empire that's a really tone deaf and stupid thing to say!


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

How about all those people with holiday homes sitting empty for most of the year, maybe they could help.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Beth78 said:


> How about all those people with holiday homes sitting empty for most of the year, maybe they could help.


 My neighbours all have holiday homes actually, but they are in France. I do remember though when one group came over (from Syria maybe, not sure, during Cameron's term I recall) they were housed in an idyllic place in Scotland but when interviewed they said it was not what they wanted as there was nothing to do (they had expected bright lights and night life) and they were hoping to be moved.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Beth78 said:


> How about all those people with holiday homes sitting empty for most of the year, maybe they could help.


Exactly or the 1000s of unoccupied derelict buildings in the country. We could make them habitable. Of course Boris would rather spend £100000 on art for his flat or £350000 on doing up his podium.

Or asking the big corporations to pay tax on their billions. Instead we say we don't want to pay benefits for people literally running for their lives. Most of whom once settled will work.

We should be looking at the rich not the poor. Seeing a young women yesterday at the airport screaming, 'please help me the Taliban are coming' was just awful.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Calvine said:


> My neighbours all have holiday homes actually, but they are in France. I do remember though when one group came over (from Syria maybe, not sure, during Cameron's term I recall) they were housed in an idyllic place in Scotland but when interviewed they said it was not what they wanted as there was nothing to do (they had expected bright lights and night life) and they were hoping to be moved.


That's gratitude for you, some of them expect to come here and get everything they want, well it's our country and they should be happy with anything we decide to give them. We have our own people to worry about as well.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Happy Paws2 said:


> That's gratitude for you, some of them expect to come here and get everything they want, well it's our country and they should be happy with anything we decide to give them. We have our own people to worry about as well.


Oh come on this is a hand me down story it was probably more likely they couldn't get work in rural Scotland than that they expected drinks and a show.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Boxer123 said:


> Exactly or the 1000s of unoccupied derelict buildings in the country. We could make them habitable. Of course Boris would rather spend £100000 on art for his flat or £350000 on doing up his podium.
> 
> Or asking the big corporations to pay tax on their billions. Instead we say we don't want to pay benefits for people literally running for their lives. Most of whom once settled will work.
> 
> We should be looking at the rich not the poor. Seeing a young women yesterday at the airport screaming, 'please help me the Taliban are coming' was just awful.


As usual it's those who have the least who give the most. Some of the most generous and helpful (and nice!) people I've known have been people who practically live hand to mouth.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Boxer123 said:


> Oh come on this is a hand me down story it was probably more likely they couldn't get work in rural Scotland than that they expected drinks and a show.


 No, not a hand-me-down story. Parents with child in pushchair were being interviewed on TV. Interviewer said at least they were safe (which was why they were brought here) and they implied that leaving their own country was a mistake. It was not on Facebook (well, it may have been, but that was not my source).


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Calvine said:


> No, not a hand-me-down story. Parents with child in pushchair were being interviewed on TV. Interviewer said at least they were safe (which was why they were brought here) and they implied that leaving their own country was a mistake. It was not on Facebook (well, it may have been, but that was not my source).


It's one family completely irrelevant to this situation. I'm sure the people throwing their babies over barbed wire fences to escape will be grateful for our hospitality.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Someone sent me this today


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Calvine said:


> interviewed on TV. Interviewer said at least they were safe (which was why they were brought here) and they implied that leaving their own country was a mistake


I would happily place money on a bet stating that there were many, many people that were in the same situation that were extremely happy that they were safe...but they wouldn't use those quotes because "Refugees are very happy that they were given a safe place to live" would not be picked up by the news...
Maybe the person that they interviewed couldn't get work and was fed up of the obvious distaste that many people have for people coming over to the UK so in that moment they may have thought that being back were they at least felt welcome was better than here?

The media use these people to solidify that we shouldn't be helping...I mean what's the point if they don't actually want help huh?

Whilst the world is looking on the Taliban will put forward these ideas that they want peace...once we stop watching they will return to their previous ways but this time no one will want to go in to help because of what happened last time


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Boxer123 said:


> Oh come on this is a hand me down story it was probably more likely they couldn't get work in rural Scotland than that they expected drinks and a show.


Just saying that some of expect when they get here anything they want they should get, that's All.

End of................


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

I wonder if people bitched about taking evacuees in WW2, or if we're just getting nastier.

I'm not sure how anyone with a heart could possibly begrudge them safety.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Gemmaa said:


> I wonder if people bitched about taking evacuees in WW2, or if we're just getting nastier.
> 
> I'm not sure how anyone with a heart could possibly begrudge them safety.


I've read novels which have had quite a bit of research that have been set during the war and yes there was a lot moaning about refugees from Belgium - they sounded foreign or didn't speak the language so really stood out. And of course when the Jewish children were brought in via kindertransport, not everyone liked that either especially as they spoke German..

Seeing as years ago when even villages were very isolated from one another, someone marrying in or moving to another village was resented and treated poorly. It's not just this country either


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Calvine said:


> My neighbours all have holiday homes actually, but they are in France. I do remember though when one group came over (from Syria maybe, not sure, during Cameron's term I recall) they were housed in an idyllic place in Scotland but when interviewed they said it was not what they wanted as there was nothing to do (they had expected bright lights and night life) and they were hoping to be moved.





Happy Paws2 said:


> That's gratitude for you, some of them expect to come here and get everything they want, well it's our country and they should be happy with anything we decide to give them. We have our own people to worry about as well.





Boxer123 said:


> Oh come on this is a hand me down story it was probably more likely they couldn't get work in rural Scotland than that they expected drinks and a show.


I think you're referencing the Syrian family who were reported in that great teller of truths... the Daily Mail who published a story in 2016 about a family who were having to travel from Bute to find work and support. It was two families who were used to working and were unable to find employment.

As with any story especially when it's reported in the Wail who love to write for their mostly bigoted readership, it's best to check with a fact finder website like Full Facts.

the Isle of Bute did a great thing in response because unlike the Wail who tried to turn people against the families for a perfectly reasonable query, they set up a committee with the families to provide better support and be more welcoming. More on the link below

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/24/bute-scotland-syrian-refugees-asylum


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

MollySmith said:


> I think you're referencing the Syrian family who were reported in that great teller of truths... the Daily Mail who published a story in 2016 about a family who were having to travel from Bute to find work and support. It was two families who were used to working and were unable to find employment.
> 
> As with any story especially when it's reported in the Wail who love to write for their mostly bigoted readership, it's best to check with a fact finder website like Full Facts.
> 
> ...


Thank you for posting.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Gemmaa said:


> I wonder if people bitched about taking evacuees in WW2, or if we're just getting nastier.
> 
> I'm not sure how anyone with a heart could possibly begrudge them safety.





Siskin said:


> I've read novels which have had quite a bit of research that have been set during the war and yes there was a lot moaning about refugees from Belgium - they sounded foreign or didn't speak the language so really stood out. And of course when the Jewish children were brought in via kindertransport, not everyone liked that either especially as they spoke German..
> 
> Seeing as years ago when even villages were very isolated from one another, someone marrying in or moving to another village was resented and treated poorly. It's not just this country either


I work on the Association of Jewish Refugees 'My Story' series which are autobiographical accounts from Jewish refugees. These stories from the children on the Kindertransport are painful reading and have opened my eyes. My great grandparents took in two children and thankfully gave them a happy home but it was a rare thing. You can read them here. 
https://www.ajrmystory.org.uk/


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Boxer123 said:


> Thank you for posting.


You're welcome. I think I'd struggle living on Bute too!


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2021)

It's very good the Taliban are allowing people safe passage to the airport in Kabul. The UK has agreed to allow refugees in from Afghanistan but they have to have the correct paper work and America and Canada are also taking refugees as well.

It is sad to see the desperation of people fleeing Afghanistan and I hope those that get out get well looked after in the new countries they want to setup home in.


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## daveos (May 14, 2017)

Why are muslim countries not taking in the refugees nearby are Pakistan Iran all the Stan countries, Its always the UK that get the most we have daily crossing of migrants that cross multiple countries that are safe to come here that goes against the rules of asylum.
My best friends dad who came from India in the 1970s said UK being very foolish allowing this to happen he reckons they are not compatible with a liberal western lifestyle I have to agree with him I know its sad but Britain is full we need to put our own people first and not just white people before anybody shouts I'm racist.
Also the Afghan army had 300.000 troops and was trained and armed by Nato and the Taliban has around 80.000 fighters with old ak47s this should not have happened they should have been able to defend if they tried.


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## daveos (May 14, 2017)

Gemmaa said:


> I wonder if people bitched about taking evacuees in WW2, or if we're just getting nastier.
> 
> I'm not sure how anyone with a heart could possibly begrudge them safety.


Not a fair comparison the Jewish people were of European heritage been living there for hundreds of years they were well settled into life until Nazis came about, People not getting nastier just fed up of UK becoming the dumping ground over and over we are only a small island already overcrowded will these people not be a burden on NHS schools housing get in the real world.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

daveos said:


> Why are muslim countries not taking in the refugees nearby are Pakistan Iran all the Stan countries, Its always the UK that get the most we have daily crossing of migrants that cross multiple countries that are safe to come here that goes against the rules of asylum.
> My best friends dad who came from India in the 1970s said UK being very foolish allowing this to happen he reckons they are not compatible with a liberal western lifestyle I have to agree with him I know its sad but Britain is full we need to put our own people first and not just white people before anybody shouts I'm racist.
> Also the Afghan army had 300.000 troops and was trained and armed by Nato and the Taliban has around 80.000 fighters with old ak47s this should not have happened they should have been able to defend if they tried.


Do you not know any Muslims ? I only ask because I know quite a few. They fit perfectly well into our society. We already have a multicultural society.

Why do we have the right to a safe society and others don't just because we were lucky enough to be born here? We are not talking about accepting the entire country just offering refuge to those we can help.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Tajikistan are accepting 100,000 refugees
Qatar are in talks to accept 8,000 refugees
Uganda who already has a very large refugee population in Africa are taking in 2,000 more and are in talks to offer more help

And the list goes on....forgetting the fact that not all Afghans are Muslim (other faiths include Christians, Sikhs, Hindus and Baha'i.) other places ARE helping.
And as @Boxer123 rightly said...plenty of Muslims live in harmony in the UK...

Thank your lucky stars that you will never know the fear that these people are facing...these people don't want to be in a country where they have to start from scratch, without knowing the language being split from their friends and family...these people are in fear for their life. They need help, not judgment


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

daveos said:


> Not a fair comparison the Jewish people were of European heritage been living there for hundreds of years they were well settled into life until Nazis came about, People not getting nastier just fed up of UK becoming the dumping ground over and over we are only a small island already overcrowded will these people not be a burden on NHS schools housing get in the real world.












I can think of a fair few of "our people" who are a huge drain on "our" resources, who give back very little to society, but it's okay, they're the _right _people.

..."dumping ground" ...they are human beings who are being forced out of their homes and country, and facing death, or much worse, along the way.
Have you looked at any of the photos and videos of what they're going through?
Are you really okay with them being stuck out there screaming and crying for help, pushing their children and babies on soldiers, because they don't want to be brutally raped or murdered...because they're the wrong kind of refugee?

It's fantastic to see empathy is alive and well!

I suppose it's their fault for choosing to be born in Afghanistan. At least we were sensible and chose a safe place....................................................................................


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## daveos (May 14, 2017)

Boxer123 said:


> Do you not know any Muslims ? I only ask because I know quite a few. They fit perfectly well into our society. We already have a multicultural society.
> 
> Why do we have the right to a safe society and others don't just because we were lucky enough to be born here? We are not talking about accepting the entire country just offering refuge to those we can help.


Muslims fit in not so well ask the multiple parents in Rotherham who's daughters were raped and abused by muslim gangs. And a gay couple attacked by a muslim gang in Birmingham this past weekend.
Im not against multicultural society if you read my thread properly you should note my best friend is of Indian origin.
Sikhs Hindus Jews fit well into UK they don't follow dangerous ideology.
Im afraid we can't help where we are born the world is not perfect.

About myself I'm a gay male
My best friend is asian
I voted to remain in EU in 2016 but glad we left now after vaccine fiasco
Im a animal lover
I have taken part and volunteered in charity events
I believe in immigration as long as it is controlled a points system would be great we need Immigration but uncontrolled is dangerous.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Wow....Ok, I'm out!


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## daveos (May 14, 2017)

Gemmaa said:


> I can think of a fair few of "our people" who are a huge drain on "our" resources, who give back very little to society, but it's okay, they're the _right _people.
> 
> ..."dumping ground" ...they are human beings who are being forced out of their homes and country, and facing death, or much worse, along the way.
> Have you looked at any of the photos and videos of what they're going through?
> ...


You need to calm down yes we have wasters here again to many the world is a tough place not perfect I had to watch my Uncle die due to the current strain on NHS and people like you want to put more pressure on it tell you what stick them in your house.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

...whatever helps you sleep at night.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

daveos said:


> . And a gay couple attacked by a muslim gang in Birmingham this past weekend.
> .


The paper only said "Detectives said the men in the car were described as being of Middle Eastern or Asian appearance" nothing about them been Muslim.


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2021)

daveos said:


> Why are muslim countries not taking in the refugees nearby are Pakistan Iran all the Stan countries, Its always the UK that get the most we have daily crossing of migrants that cross multiple countries that are safe to come here that goes against the rules of asylum.
> My best friends dad who came from India in the 1970s said UK being very foolish allowing this to happen he reckons they are not compatible with a liberal western lifestyle I have to agree with him I know its sad but Britain is full we need to put our own people first and not just white people before anybody shouts I'm racist.
> Also the Afghan army had 300.000 troops and was trained and armed by Nato and the Taliban has around 80.000 fighters with old ak47s this should not have happened they should have been able to defend if they tried.


Muslim countries are taking some Qatar has already taken some but passenger flights have now been suspended to Kabul from most countries including Qatar so it's a difficult situation as there is only military planes landing.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

I find it really hard when things like this happen. It’s just awful and I hate the fact things like this happen in the world 

I honestly cannot imagine what those people are going through. Unless you’ve lived it, I don’t think anyone can comprehend how frightening it must be in Afghanistan right now.
I saw the images of people trying to cling to the planes, it’s was heartbreaking. Can any of us actually imagine how utterly desperate you must be to cling to the outside of an aeroplane because staying in the country is worse then falling to your death? I can’t even put into words how it makes me feel.


We should offer help to those who need it. We are so lucky to be born here. However much of a mess our country may be in we are very lucky! People cannot help where they’re born and I don’t like the take of ‘us’ and ‘them’.

we have plenty of resource in this country! The problem is we have people in charge who are determined to keep the megarich mega rich and the billionaires billionaires.

As for the NHS, the strain is the governments fault not refugees or the people who need it


Oh and there are plenty of white men who rape and murder and commit crimes. Let’s not condemn a whole race shall we


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Teddy-dog said:


> I find it really hard when things like this happen. It's just awful and I hate the fact things like this happen in the world
> 
> I honestly cannot imagine what those people are going through. Unless you've lived it, I don't think anyone can comprehend how frightening it must be in Afghanistan right now.
> I saw the images of people trying to cling to the planes, it's was heartbreaking. Can any of us actually imagine how utterly desperate you must be to cling to the outside of an aeroplane because staying in the country is worse then falling to your death? I can't even put into words how it makes me feel.
> ...


Exactly this.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

StormyThai said:


> many people that were in the same situation that were extremely happy that they were safe


Indeed. the husband had a cousin who was very happy in a place near Glasgow ( I imagine Sauchiehall St on a Saturday night is reasonably ''lively'').



MollySmith said:


> As with any story especially when it's reported in the Wail


This was on TV and apparently in some Scottish publication whose name I do not know. It was some years back, whether it was in DM I don't know and not prepared to start trawling just to find out.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

daveos said:


> Muslims fit in not so well ask the multiple parents in Rotherham who's daughters were raped and abused by muslim gangs. And a gay couple attacked by a muslim gang in Birmingham this past weekend.


Just to say, I grew up in West London surrounded by wonderful people of which the majority where where muslim. The only neighbour who was a danger to me was an English man in his 50s.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Beth78 said:


> Just to say, I grew up in West London surrounded by wonderful people of which the majority where where muslim. The only neighbour who was a danger to me was an English man in his 50s.


It's weird isn't it...imagine if we assumed all white, British, male, Met police officers, were murderers, because of Wayne Couzens?


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Calvine said:


> Indeed. the husband had a cousin who was very happy in a place near Glasgow ( I imagine Sauchiehall St on a Saturday night is reasonably ''lively'').
> 
> This was on TV and apparently in some Scottish publication whose name I do not know. It was some years back, whether it was in DM I don't know and not prepared to start trawling just to find out.


it was the Herald but the DM picked it up and manipulated it.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

daveos said:


> Why are muslim countries not taking in the refugees nearby are Pakistan Iran all the Stan countries, Its always the UK that get the most we have daily crossing of migrants that cross multiple countries that are safe to come here that goes against the rules of asylum.
> My best friends dad who came from India in the 1970s said UK being very foolish allowing this to happen he reckons they are not compatible with a liberal western lifestyle I have to agree with him I know its sad but Britain is full we need to put our own people first and not just white people before anybody shouts I'm racist.
> Also the Afghan army had 300.000 troops and was trained and armed by Nato and the Taliban has around 80.000 fighters with old ak47s this should not have happened they should have been able to defend if they tried.


I find this extraordinarily offensive. I won't lose any sleep over it but have sat on my hands for 7 pages hoping you may post something and back it up with a fact.

Nobody owns their land through heritage, religion or colour which it seems to me what you're saying here; throwing around that you are a gay man in order to seemingly defend your broadsweep at an entire country, religion or apparent heritage is lacking in compassion and awareness.

There are so many resources - some I shared yesterday - on actual stories from refugees; from charities and also The Big Issue on their stance on homing people from countries who are need of safety (being the biggest charity that deals with the shortfall of successive governments on homelessness). I recommend you read them. I learned a lot. We're talking about the difference between life and death.

You seem to refer to past times. Your father, Blair, and 1970s. We've all changed a lot since then and it's only through compassionate listening and maybe understanding that the future starts today, right now that we can move forward and do our best by people for whom we can support with the privilege of living in a Western country and all that provides.

It's all too easy to be an armchair expert on this forum and forget one has never lived these lives and has no experience of those religions, cultures and the terror of being forced from all one has known. That's called empathy and it seems to be lacking.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Having lived in predominantly Muslim countries for much of my childhood, & having many family friends of the Muslim faith, I find the comments about terrorism extremely offensive.

Just days ago there was a horrific shooting in Plymouth that left 6 people dead, including a tiny child, committed by 'one of our own'.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I just wanted to add that we almost all start from a place of ignorance. There’s no shame in that - the world is huge, religion is complex and so are humans. 

I had the good fortune to work in educational publishing which had a strong base in the area. I travelled there a few times but I’m learning an awful lot now about the people and challenges because so much changes. Even if one doesn’t know, the best we can do it learn from those it affects. Not the politicians, army or media but charities who are there giving a voice. Seek out those with experiences, because it’s probably going to be increasingly hard to do that if the Taliban cut the country away. Then we can begin to make educated opinions. I think it’s the most respectful thing to do and the very least. 

I’m sure I’m not alone in having experienced judgements for life experiences forced upon me and feeling the detrimental affects of that. If we express a bit of compassion to ourselves we can express the same to others however different those experiences maybe.


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## daveos (May 14, 2017)

This is going a bit to heated now I have facts but the woke members only read or hear what they want to and as for a certain member mentioning white people I never said anything about skin colour.
No proper debate just hate towards member. And mollysnmith you are so much better than me because you did educational publishing I live in the real world work hard for a living and know real people who are struggling at the moment having paid taxes all of their life we can't even give our OAPs a free tv licence but let anybody come here what a joke.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

daveos said:


> This is going a bit to heated now I have facts but the woke members only read or hear what they want to and as for a certain member mentioning white people I never said anything about skin colour.
> No proper debate just hate towards member. And mollysnmith you are so much better than me because you did educational publishing I live in the real world work hard for a living and know real people who are struggling at the moment having paid taxes all of their life we can't even give our OAPs a free tv licence but let anybody come here what a joke.


Congratulations on being born into a liberal society where free speech is permitted & that has given you long term job security.

Does your Facebook bio include 'educated at the University of Life & School of Hard Knocks' perchance?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Teddy-dog said:


> Oh and there are plenty of white men who rape and murder and commit crimes. Let's not condemn a whole race shall we


I didn't think Muslim was a race!


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## daveos (May 14, 2017)

simplysardonic said:


> Congratulations on being born into a liberal society where free speech is permitted & that has given you long term job security.
> 
> Does your Facebook bio include 'educated at the University of Life & School of Hard Knocks' perchance?


Free speech seems to be only when it goes with the minority.
Why such a personal attack from a staff member? No need for such rudeness implying I'm not educated how dare you.
Oh and thank you I love living in a liberal society and I intend for it to stay that way.
You need to take off your rose tinted glasses.


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## daveos (May 14, 2017)

rona said:


> I didn't think Muslim was a race!


Correct Muslims are not a race they are people who follow Islam.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

daveos said:


> This is going a bit to heated now I have facts but the woke members only read or hear what they want to and as for a certain member mentioning white people I never said anything about skin colour.
> No proper debate just hate towards member. And mollysnmith you are so much better than me because you did educational publishing I live in the real world work hard for a living and know real people who are struggling at the moment having paid taxes all of their life we can't even give our OAPs a free tv licence but let anybody come here what a joke.


And there you go again, assuming I have a non-real world approach. It's just as real world as yours but with different challenges or maybe the same, the point being we can learn not assume if we choose. (For reference I was made redundant shortly after a miscarriage from that job and diagnosed with PTSD, it's just as real world as your life - no more no less). I would accept an apology from you for your assumptions but not expecting it.

Edited to add being woke it is not, it's about being respectful. If we are not that, then one is arguably no better than the oppression of Taliban or any forceful control.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

daveos said:


> Free speech seems to be only when it goes with the minority.
> Why such a personal attack from a staff member? No need for such rudeness implying I'm not educated how dare you.
> Oh and thank you I love living in a liberal society and I intend for it to stay that way.
> You need to take off your rose tinted glasses.


There's no free speech in this country now. Better than Afghanistan though


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## daveos (May 14, 2017)

rona said:


> There's no free speech in this country now. Better than Afghanistan though


Sad but true such a shame when I get attacked for having a view that majority of people I know share, And before anybody starts ordinary working or retired people and NOT RACIST.
Better than Afghanistan yes for now anyway. Thank you


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

daveos said:


> This is going a bit to heated now I have facts but the woke members only read or hear what they want to


Interesting that you claim to have facts and yet havent bothered to post them. All Ive read is a couple of individual news stories which is just cherry picking the 'facts' you want to fit your rhetoric.
I might as well say all gay men are intolerant of refugees, foreigners and other religions because of a few replies on a random forum thread by one! Obviously that is an extreme example and would be a close minded, ignorant opinion to have as well as lacking any proper factual evidence to back it up.

Im pretty sure that any social problems this country has will still exist wether we take in refugees or not.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

rona said:


> I didn't think Muslim was a race!


Ok a whole culture then. Sorry I used the wrong word but the point is still the same….


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

daveos said:


> This is going a bit to heated now I have facts but the woke members only read or hear what they want to and as for a certain member mentioning white people I never said anything about skin colour.


no you didn't but you made a sweeping generalisation about a group of people (Muslims) saying they don't fit into well into 'our' society because of the actions of a few. 
so I made a statement about another group of people (white men - who are the majority in the UK and who a lot of people will align themselves with) saying that some of them also commit hideous crimes but let's not judge a whole group by a fews actions….


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## Pawscrossed (Jul 2, 2013)

rona said:


> There's no free speech in this country now. Better than Afghanistan though


How on earth could you know what no free speech is like given you've been able to post on the internet without the very real fear of arrest. You have the freedom to decide when you can go online, the power and facilities to do so and you can chose to use a false name or your own without any reprisal.



daveos said:


> Sad but true such a shame when I get attacked for having a view that majority of people I know share, And before anybody starts ordinary working or retired people and NOT RACIST.
> Better than Afghanistan yes for now anyway. Thank you


Those are defensive words - _attacked_ and _anyone starts_ - and you're in danger of shutting down others through your language.

On the contrary you've both been very expressive in your likes and replies. Hardly oppression!


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## daveos (May 14, 2017)

catz4m8z said:


> Interesting that you claim to have facts and yet havent bothered to post them. All Ive read is a couple of individual news stories which is just cherry picking the 'facts' you want to fit your rhetoric.
> I might as well say all gay men are intolerant of refugees, foreigners and other religions because of a few replies on a random forum thread by one! Obviously that is an extreme example and would be a close minded, ignorant opinion to have as well as lacking any proper factual evidence to back it up.
> 
> Im pretty sure that any social problems this country has will still exist wether we take in refugees or not.


Still putting me down I see I never said all Muslims and facts you can get for yourself but you would turn a blind eye to just google you will see the cases.
Nobody has answered my question how will the NHS cope with all this extra immigration its struggling now and what about housing did you see the news tonight about the shocking standards of social housing.
I have a right to be concerned about immigration its not racist its being realistic it will be the ordinary working people who will pay for this not the mega rich.
I support controlled skilled immigration into this country as stated before but you chose to ignore what I wrote so perhaps you are the one cherry picking what you want to hear.
So don't be so rude as to what you say Look up grooming gangs Blackpool sex attacks cologne in Germany at new year there are many more stories.
But don't you dare say I'm accusing all muslims of these acts that is your narrow-mind because I have a different view and I know I'm lucky have white privelage Hitler was white so was Stalin Ted Bundy All Nazis all white.
We will always have social problems but should we add to that number remember Yugoslavia.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

catz4m8z said:


> Interesting that you claim to have facts and yet havent bothered to post them. All Ive read is a couple of individual news stories which is just cherry picking the 'facts' you want to fit your rhetoric.
> I might as well say all gay men are intolerant of refugees, foreigners and other religions because of a few replies on a random forum thread by one! Obviously that is an extreme example and would be a close minded, ignorant opinion to have as well as lacking any proper factual evidence to back it up.
> 
> Im pretty sure that any social problems this country has will still exist wether we take in refugees or not.


Agree, in fact I'm sure that through our multicultural society, we've gained so much more. (and we _could_ also say 'as women' we know so much more but that's horribly dismissive too!)


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## daveos (May 14, 2017)

Pawscrossed said:


> How on earth could you know what no free speech is like given you've been able to post on the internet without the very real fear of arrest. You have the freedom to decide when you can go online, the power and facilities to do so and you can chose to use a false name or your own without any reprisal.
> 
> Those are defensive words - _attacked_ and _anyone starts_ - and you're in danger of shutting down others through your language.
> 
> On the contrary you've both been very expressive in your likes and replies. Hardly oppression!


Sorry its the hostility and narrow-mindedness from other members cherry picking what they want to hear.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Pawscrossed said:


> How on earth could you know what no free speech is like given you've been able to post on the internet without the very real fear of arrest. You have the freedom to decide when you can go online, the power and facilities to do so and you can chose to use a false name or your own without any reprisal.


That is not true by any stretch off the imagination. However, it cannot be compared to anything that is going on in Afghanistan, and this silly arguing will get this thread closed


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Was hoping there would be an update from Nowzad by now. I hope the silence means they're all going to be getting out of there safely.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

daveos said:


> Still putting me down I see I never said all Muslims and facts you can get for yourself but you would turn a blind eye to just google you will see the cases.
> Nobody has answered my question how will the NHS cope with all this extra immigration its struggling now and what about housing did you see the news tonight about the shocking standards of social housing.
> I have a right to be concerned about immigration its not racist its being realistic it will be the ordinary working people who will pay for this not the mega rich.
> I support controlled skilled immigration into this country as stated before but you chose to ignore what I wrote so perhaps you are the one cherry picking what you want to hear.
> ...


_Nobody has answered my question how will the NHS cope with all this extra immigration its struggling now and what about housing did you see the news tonight about the shocking standards of social housing._
Refugees have skills in medicine too. There's a charity called Building Bridges that supports trained doctors and nurses from other countries to get work in the NHS as there is an employment problem thanks to the tories running down the NHS. I'm sure that @catz4m8z knows more than this because of her work as do others on PF who also work in the NHS.

_I have a right to be concerned about immigration its not racist its being realistic it will be the ordinary working people who will pay for this not the mega rich._
Here's some facts from The Refugee Council on immigration https://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/information/refugee-asylum-facts/the-truth-about-asylum/

_So don't be so rude as to what you say Look up grooming gangs Blackpool sex attacks cologne in Germany at new year there are many more stories._
What's the connection? As a women I'm also subject to attacks too - we all are, they're not all carried about by refugees. If the assertion is that refugees cause crime then the Migration Observatory Unit study from 2013 suggested otherwise saying that "Bell et al. (2013) examine local crime patterns in England and Wales from 2002 to 2009 in order to determine whether there is any causal effect of an increase in the foreign-born population on crime. They focus on two large groups of migrants that arrived in the UK over this period. First, asylum seekers arising initially from the dislocations in former Yugoslavia and subsequently from war-torn societies such as Iraq and Afghanistan. Second, the large migrant flows coming from the A8 countries, particularly Poland, since 2004. The research showed that it is possible to derive causal estimates for both migrant groups and found that the share of asylum seekers in the local population was related to a rise in property crime, while a rise in A8 migrants was associated with a fall in property crime. Neither group was associated with statistically significant changes in violent crime. Estimates suggest that a one percentage point increase in the asylum seeker share of the local population is associated with a 1.1% rise in property crime. Since asylum seekers accounted for only around 0.1% of the population, the macro effects were small. A one percentage point increase in the share of the population that was born in the A8 countries leads to 0.4% fall in property crime."

_We will always have social problems but should we add to that number remember Yugoslavia._
Good point. Four years of conflict in Croatia (1991-1995) led to the forced displacement of more than 500,000 people within the country and the UNHCR reported in 2019 that they'd only just started to rehome people in suitable houses. "One Bosnian woman, now 75, who lost relatives at Srebrenica, spent 22 years in the limbo of refugee centers. Another Bosnian woman, who was 16 when she fled to Croatia, has only now got her own flat at the age of 42."

It's been clearly stated many times that poor housing and trauma - losing everything you own including a postal address and your own front door - can cause an escalation in poor mental health and crime leaving people vulnerable through now fault of their own. This includes isolating people by placing them in special communities leaving them open to attacks from local communities. Let's not forget that refugees have been attacked many times themselves.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Gemmaa said:


> Was hoping there would be an update from Nowzad by now. I hope the silence means they're all going to be getting out of there safely.


I have donated to them. If you hear, please do post, I'm worried about them too.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Ooh, I found this, I hope the link works, my phone hates me (and I it).

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1428430057983418371
It's an interview on TalkRadio


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

MollySmith said:


> *I have donated to them.* If you hear, please do post, I'm worried about them too.


Bless you, I have too I can't imagine what they must be going through. We'll probably be condemned for woke virtue signalling



daveos said:


> Free speech seems to be only when it goes with the minority.
> Why such a personal attack from a staff member? No need for such rudeness implying I'm not educated how dare you.
> Oh and thank you I love living in a liberal society and I intend for it to stay that way.
> You need to take off your rose tinted glasses.


It's an observation, as opposed to a personal attack.

You don't like it when other people attack you, but you're quick to attack people yourself by making sweeping generalisations about entire cultures.

I may be a staff member, but us moderators are entitled to our opinions on subjects we are passionate and/or knowledgeable about.

Interesting that you've joined a pet forum but I don't think I've ever seen you post anything about pets, just on any thread in General Chat that has the potential to turn contentious.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Boxer123 said:


> Do you not know any Muslims ? I only ask because I know quite a few. They fit perfectly well into our society. We already have a multicultural society.
> 
> Why do we have the right to a safe society and others don't just because we were lucky enough to be born here? We are not talking about accepting the entire country just offering refuge to those we can help.


Yes I know quite a few here , mainly Asians , they do "fit in"

However that might not be true of all areas . My cousins lives near Bradford and many dont speak English and their wives have to wear Burkas etc . But even in this area, Some don't allowed their children to take part in any singing or dancing and the young girls in primary school have to wear a scarf on their head to cover their hair and arm and leg coverings under their school uniforms. 
Many women are not treated as equal yet we seem to embrace this under the guise of Multiculturalism.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Beth78 said:


> Just to say, I grew up in West London surrounded by wonderful people of which the majority where where muslim. The only neighbour who was a danger to me was an English man in his 50s.


Me too , on the outskirts of west London . I used to work In Southall.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

simplysardonic said:


> Bless you, I have too I can't imagine what they must be going through. We'll probably be condemned for woke virtue signalling


Maybe 'bark' signally? Woke barking? Oh to be a dog who don't give a hoot about where other dogs come from. Life would be so much more simple....

Nowzad link for those who want to donate is here. Goes to animals support, please do spare a penny if you can. Not woke, just good and kind. 
https://www.nowzad.com


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> Yes I know quite a few here , mainly Asians , they do "fit in"
> 
> However that might not be true of all areas . My cousins lives near Bradford and many dont speak English and their wives have to wear Burkas etc . But even in this area, Some don't allowed their children to take part in any singing or dancing and the young girls in primary school have to wear a scarf on their head to cover their hair and arm and leg coverings under their school uniforms.
> Many women are not treated as equal yet we seem to embrace this under the guise of Multiculturalism.


We tend to have to be careful with cultural sensitivities in illustration and design for other countries not specifically ones where the main religion is Muslim. These are as you've said the covering of arms and ankles, no cleavage.

This is my apparently (according to @daveos) non-real-world unicorn job that pays me in magical nuggets of woke in which I work on educational material for children in countries all over the world.


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## Pawscrossed (Jul 2, 2013)

MollySmith said:


> This is my apparently (according to @daveos) non-real-world unicorn job that pays me in *magical nuggets of woke *in which I work on educational material for children in countries all over the world.


:Hilarious


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

MollySmith said:


> Agree, in fact I'm sure that through our multicultural society, we've gained so much more. (and we _could_ also say 'as women' we know so much more but that's horribly dismissive too!)


But this is more about religion rather than race. Im not against religion , Im happy to go to different religious ceremonies but what exactly have we gained.?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

MollySmith said:


> We tend to have to be careful with cultural sensitivities in illustration and design for other countries not specifically ones where the main religion is Muslim. These are as you've said the covering of arms and ankles, no cleavage.
> 
> .


Yes but you've not said how you feel about it in this happening in the UK.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> But this is more about religion rather than race. Im not against religion , Im happy to go to different religious ceremonies but what exactly have we gained.


Yes good point. I was just going to say that in relation to the multicultural 'appropriateness' of illustrations in reply to your observation of dress that I don't agree with that suppression, and that my client who is in turn endorsed by ministries and exam boards has to do this. It's almost endorsement in itself of the oppression. I hope that make sense?


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> Yes but you've not said how you feel about it in this happening in the UK.


See above  You type quicker than me and my canary speed!


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

MollySmith said:


> See above  You type quicker than me and my canary speed!


:Hilarious


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

*Puts Mod Hat on*

This is an emotionally charged, divisive topic, which has led to numerous reports being lodged against numerous members. I temporarily closed the thread to go through, and have read some pretty cringeworthy comments, comment that come close to being an attack on a protected characteristic, which we cannot allow. The heated exchange does seem to have resolved itself, and so I made the decision to reopen the thread. Anymore reports, or anymore remarks that come close to racism or any of the other protected characteristics, and the thread will be permanently closed.

Yes, us Mods are members of staff, but we're also member of the forum, and, crucially, human beings with minds and opinions and life experiences of our own.

*Removes Mod Hat*

@simplysardonic , @MollySmith , thank you for raising awareness of the animal charity caught up in all of this.


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## daveos (May 14, 2017)

MollySmith said:


> We tend to have to be careful with cultural sensitivities in illustration and design for other countries not specifically ones where the main religion is Muslim. These are as you've said the covering of arms and ankles, no cleavage. There you go again verbally abusing me for my opinion you are just a BULLY who does not like anybody to have a different opinion to yourself, You have given no proper input only burying your head in the sand with all of your experience.
> I will no longer take part in this so called free thread I will not be subject to Bullying and cherry picking of facts.
> 
> This is my apparently (according to @daveos) non-real-world unicorn job that pays me in magical nuggets of woke in which I work on educational material for children in countries all over the world.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

kimthecat said:


> Yes I know quite a few here , mainly Asians , they do "fit in"
> 
> However that might not be true of all areas . My cousins lives near Bradford and many dont speak English and their wives have to wear Burkas etc . But even in this area, Some don't allowed their children to take part in any singing or dancing and the young girls in primary school have to wear a scarf on their head to cover their hair and arm and leg coverings under their school uniforms.
> Many women are not treated as equal yet we seem to embrace this under the guise of Multiculturalism.


That's the only problem I have......If they want to live in any country you should live by our values, if we live or go to their country we have to live by theirs rules!!

Many come here for a better live but still treat their own women as slaves!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Happy Paws2 said:


> That's the only problem I have......If they want to live in any country you should live by our values, if we live or go to their country we have to live by theirs rules!!
> 
> Many come here for a better live but still treat their own women as slaves!


It's difficult for me to comment not knowing people about their lives. I've known many Muslim women who live happy full lives yes they cover their hair and legs but this is out of choice. Of course I don't live in LA LA land I know this isn't always the case.

From my own experience I could tell you stories about my treatment under the guise of a 'Christian marriage' that would make your toes curl. Domestic abuse happens in ALL cultures I never agree with it.

What I do know is that this thread was started out of concern for people. The women that you and @kimthecat talk about being oppressed are safer in this country. It's not perfect but we have safeguarding systems in place. They will have access to education.

Thank you to the mods for keeping this thread open I think it's important to be able to share links about how we can support and what we can do rather than argue about refugees. The scenes on the news this week have left me in tears I'd like to be able to help even if it's just donating a little I can afford or reading to educate myself thank you @MollySmith.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I just wanted to pop in to post the update from Nowzad for anyone in here that wants to know

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1428608505947344898
And just wanted to point out that women being treated as slaves happens in the UK too...it's just not socially acceptable so it is hidden behind closed doors...no religion link needed, just nasty humans being nasty.

Anyway...I'm gonna go hide back under my rock as this thread is a bit toxic now


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Boxer123 said:


> It's difficult for me to comment not knowing people about their lives. I've known many Muslim women who live happy full lives yes they cover their hair and legs but this is out of choice. Of course I don't live in LA LA land I know this isn't always the case.
> 
> From my own experience I could tell you stories about my treat under the guise of a 'Christian marriage' that would make your toes curl. Domestic abuse happens in ALL cultures I never agree with it.
> 
> ...


I agree, I think misogyny is rife amongst many religions/cultures unfortunately & I do think some types of Islam this seems to be the norm. I also do not support any religion/belief that dictates women should cover themselves out of 'modesty' to such an extent that they almost become 'non-human' ..... & surely this is is the whole fear of the Taliban now gaining power. The lives of all will be affected but particularly those women & young girls.

I caught something on the news today regarding some employees (workers at embassies, interpreters, etc) now no longer having jobs & not being offered safety as they were contractors rather than direct employees .. FFS, these people did important jobs & now their lives will be at risk & yet it sounded like the government was trying to wriggle out of their responsibility to wards these people.

Did I really hear this correctly? I hope I am wrong


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> I agree, I think misogyny is rife amongst many religions/cultures unfortunately & I do think some types of Islam this seems to be the norm. I also do not support any religion/belief that dictates women should cover themselves out of 'modesty' to such an extent that they almost become 'non-human' ..... & surely this is is the whole fear of the Taliban now gaining power. The lives of all will be affected but particularly those women & young girls.
> 
> I caught something on the news today regarding some employees (workers at embassies, interpreters, etc) now no longer having jobs & not being offered safety as they were contractors rather than direct employees .. FFS, these people did important jobs & now their lives will be at risk & yet it sounded like the government was trying to wriggle out of their responsibility to wards these people.
> 
> Did I really hear this correctly? I hope I am wrong


I heard the same thing


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

The news has been updated to say that they will now be able to leave.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

MollySmith said:


> _Nobody has answered my question how will the NHS cope with all this extra immigration its struggling now and what about housing did you see the news tonight about the shocking standards of social housing._
> Refugees have skills in medicine too. There's a charity called Building Bridges that supports trained doctors and nurses from other countries to get work in the NHS as there is an employment problem thanks to the tories running down the NHS. I'm sure that @catz4m8z knows more than this because of her work as do others on PF who also work in the NHS.
> .


yup, I am massively thankful for immigration as otherwise the hospitals would be empty of staff! On an average shift I mostly work with foreign staff (nurses, Drs, cleaners, etc) and we would be totally screwed without them. Over the years we have in fact gone on recruitment drives to other countries and pinched their staff away from them!
As to the difference a few thousand refugees will make to the NHS Im sure it will be negligable....certainly less then the patient load caused by preventable disease relating to alcohol or obesity for example.

'but they will be unskilled labour leeching off our resources!!'...maybe alot of them will be unskilled but we often have a shortage of unskilled labour in many jobs so as long as people are willing to work and contribute to society however they can then I say they are more then welcome.
Of course there will be a risk of letting in terrorists or criminals but the vast majority of people just want a better life. I dont know about you but Id be more then happy to see this country become a big melting pot of different views and cultures that we can all experience and share....after all back in the day we went over there and tried to assimilate different cultures by force, at least now we are just letting them come here to assimilate instead!!LOL


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

I don’t think the “how will the NHS cope with extra patients” holds up anyway as extra patients are inevitable every day. The birth of a child usually uses NHS services and that child will probably use those services again throughout their life until their death. Yet nobody is saying we should stop having children to avoid this? Nobody blames children for their drainage on the NHS probably because they did not ask to be born and healthcare, safety, and wellbeing are rights that everyone should have access too. I feel the same about migrants/refugees. They have not asked to be in their situation. The money is available for the NHS but the people in power do not give them it. The problem is not the public imo.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I'm so confused as to the turn this thread took since the last time I checked it. 
The situation in Afghanistan is horrific, and rather than discuss the "meat" of what's going on (largely caused by western meddling might I add), we end up in a tit-for-tat back and forth about refugees? What?

One of the books I read over the summer is "The Beekeeper of Aleppo" yes, fiction, but well worth the read. May those commenting on this thread never witness the horror of having to flee your own homeland, and everything familiar to you


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

StormyThai said:


> I just wanted to pop in to post the update from Nowzad for anyone in here that wants to know
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1428608505947344898
> And just wanted to point out that women being treated as slaves happens in the UK too...it's just not socially acceptable so it is hidden behind closed doors...no religion link needed, just nasty humans being nasty.
> ...


Thank you for the update. and I'm going to step out too, I can see incoming and I honestly can't believe anyone could query saving lives.

Much thanks to you, @LinznMilly and @simplysardonic for all you do.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

O2.0 said:


> I'm so confused as to the turn this thread took since the last time I checked it.
> The situation in Afghanistan is horrific, and rather than discuss the "meat" of what's going on (largely caused by western meddling might I add), we end up in a tit-for-tat back and forth about refugees? What?
> 
> One of the books I read over the summer is "The Beekeeper of Aleppo" yes, fiction, but well worth the read. May those commenting on this thread never witness the horror of having to flee your own homeland, and everything familiar to you


I've read the book, it is a good read and very thought provoking. It was our book club read and there was quite a lot of discussion when we met up


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2021)

It's a shame when threads like this go down hill. I don't want backlash about what I am going to say but wanted to share my opinion.

Those poor people in Afghanistan are so desperate to get away from the Taliban, and I don't blame them especially with the track record the Taliban have.

The UK is one of a number of countries that have agreed to help the refugees (and so we should for occupying their country fighting the Taliban over the last 20 years), these countries include Muslim countries. The Afghan people are human beings just like you and me at the end of the day, yes they might have different life styles and ways of life but they are human. If it was a member of your family or a good friend needing help to get away from a hostile situation wouldn't you help them?

I am glad the UK has offered help to take 20,000 people, other countries are committing to take a number of Afghanistan refugees as well.

My heart goes out to those fleeing the awful situation in Afghanistan.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

The NHS would probably do better if Boris would stop breeding or went to private hospitals (or if they were funded properly)...not sure if we're meant to feel warm and fuzzy when the mega rich opt for NHS treatment?

If the boot was on the other foot, and we were desperate to leave the UK, I'd be horrified at the thought of leaving my home and everything I knew, to go to a country where I'd be viewed with fear by a lot of people..I would have to learn a culture and language dramatically different to my own...but that's if I didn't get killed on the way or left behind by a hasty government.

Imagine the feeling when the troops leave, and the last bit of their hope goes with them?
Or how the troops will feel, knowing that they're leaving people behind who should be able to go, and all the innocent people who are now facing hell on earth - which honestly feels like an understatement.

Government is the only thing that deserves anger and resentment, they're failing everyone. 

Helping those people is nothing to do with being woke, it's just the right thing to do.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Just saw that the Taliban turned up at Nowzad's door this morning, but luckily got called away. I really hope they get out soon with the news that the Taliban are targeting NATO workers and others who work for Western organisations and govts.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I donate to charity from my business and told my clients I have switched to Nowzad this morning and one of them matched my donation £ for £.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

Sarah H said:


> Just saw that the Taliban turned up at Nowzad's door this morning, but luckily got called away. I really hope they get out soon with the news that the Taliban are targeting NATO workers and others who work for Western organisations and govts.


Gosh that's so scary


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## Guest (Aug 21, 2021)

I think immigration and refugees are not a simple subject.

Nobody seems to question why countries such as Saudi Arabia, Japan or Korea do not take in refugees or to any noticeable number. The burden seems to fall on a certain number of countries in the west.

By take in, I mean grant refugees legal status and or citizenship. There are many refugees around the world that live in camps and are cared for by the United Nations and other organizations but are not integrated into their host countries.
Pakistan has for decades hosted many Afghan refugees and Lebanon many Palestinian but they are not full fledged members of society and cannot freely work among other restrictions.
Jordan was an exception in allowing Palestinians to become Jordanians.

It should be considered, why some countries are given a free pass on helping and others are required it seems by the international community to take up the burden of accepting refugees on a permanent basis.
One can say a moral issue but there comes a point when you must consider how many you take in and still preserve your own culture and not have a divided society.
We can see divisions already in British towns and cities.

The reason countries such as Japan and many others do not take refugees, is they want a homogenous society and do not want problems. They want to be Japanese and are allowed to be so.
And Japan has had their own colonial adventures.

Saudi Arabia (or more accurately, from what is the current Saudi Arabia) once sent armies far and wide to convert and subjugate others, i.e they colonized North African and the Middle East. Which is why so many countries speak Arabic.

Turkey, let's not forget the Ottoman Empire which was again a colonial maze partly in Europe (the Balkans).

There are many other non European examples.

Colonialism is not solely a European phenomenon and should not be a reason why people can automatically be granted access, by saying oh you were once a colonizer.

The United States is a country based on immigration. And better able to handle myriad cultures but again, it has its limits if it wants to maintain a degree of cultural conformity which is needed to maintain unity.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Sarah H said:


> Just saw that the Taliban turned up at Nowzad's door this morning, but luckily got called away. I really hope they get out soon with the news that the Taliban are targeting NATO workers and others who work for Western organisations and govts.


Awful... really hoping everybody gets out safely (the government can make all the right noises over there but it counts for nothing if they cant control their troops).
So sad for all the poor cats and dogs at the shelter who have presumably been PTS by now.

I have just been watching a clip on Youtube of photos of Afghanistan and Kabul from the 1950s, 60s and 70s. There is barely any difference between them and photos of UK or US in the same time period. Shocking how far their society is sliding back into the dark ages.
Yet again Im super grateful to have been born where I was!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

J. Dawson said:


> I think immigration and refugees are not a simple subject.
> 
> Nobody seems to question why countries such as Saudi Arabia, Japan or Korea do not take in refugees or to any noticeable number. The burden seems to fall on a certain number of countries in the west.
> 
> ...


I agree, I think it's very interesting to look at how other countries tare helping displaced people. Do you know where to find statistics for this?

Years ago I went to Japan (x3wk holiday so not like I had a true experience of the culture) but I was so surprised at the lack of diversity there. I absolutely loved it there & their culture is fascinating but much more of a collective one which am not sure would suit me long term.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

The UN figures for June resettlement are here
https://www.unhcr.org/uk/protection/resettlement/60fa6a7a4/resettlement-fact-sheet-june-2021.html

and their overall site is here
https://www.unhcr.org/uk/what-we-do.htm


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/8/18/which-countries-will-take-in-afghan-refugees-and-how-many

*Where does the world stand on Afghan refugees?*


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

What to do with the Afghan refugees is an extremely complicated problem and I have sympathy both for those fleeing the country and those concerned about allowing big groups of refugees in to their own countries. 
The thing is, not everyone fleeing wants to permanently resettle elsewhere. Most refugees want to stay close-ish to their homeland in the hopes that when things are safe enough, they can return. Even if they end up far away, they may not want to assimilate fully because again, the hope is that they will one day be able to return. 

And for those who do want to permanently relocate and do want to assimilate as well as they can, it important to understand how difficult that is. Learning a new language alone is a massive challenge, let alone trying to become someone who blends in without losing your entire self of who makes you who you are. And doing that while living through probably some serious MH issues, PTSD, shock, survivor guilt, and all the emotional trauma tied in to being a refugee... 

I also sympathize with those who don't want more people - of any description in their vicinity. We have a new house being built, and my neighbor and I bitched about it for about an hour the other day and laughed at ourselves for being so bitchy. Absolutely nothing wrong with the people moving in, we both know them, they's totally fine, we just don't want to share any more space than we have to. I think it's a perfectly normal reaction harking back to our caveman days. We're not that far removed from our primate ancestors and we get territorial and don't like to share. It's completely understandable. 

People should be able to voice their concerns about hosting refugees without being labeled an -ist of some sort. If we understand where the objections come from we're better able to mitigate concerns and find solutions that work for everyone involved.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Most recent video from Nowzad...
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=543009413516901&id=110252975672446&anchor_composer=false


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## Guest (Aug 21, 2021)

Uzbekistan accepts 400 more refugees from Afghanistan and Afghan evacuees arrive in Indonesia and Qatar's processing centre reached full capacity yesterday processing Afghans arriving there. This is a global effort not just US and UK.


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## Guest (Aug 21, 2021)

I cannot believe Biden he has set a 10 day deadline saying rescue missions must be completed by then. Well when the American soldiers leave the UK soldiers will as well.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

oldeecatowner said:


> I cannot believe Biden he has set a 10 day deadline saying rescue missions must be completed by then. Well when the American soldiers leave the UK soldiers will as well.


And presumably the soldiers from other countries as well..

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/asia-pacific/9-592-troops-of-36-countries-serving-in-afghanistan/2212251

*9,592 troops of 36 countries serving in Afghanistan*


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> What to do with the Afghan refugees is an extremely complicated problem and I have sympathy both for those fleeing the country and those concerned about allowing big groups of refugees in to their own countries.
> The thing is, not everyone fleeing wants to permanently resettle elsewhere. Most refugees want to stay close-ish to their homeland in the hopes that when things are safe enough, they can return. Even if they end up far away, they may not want to assimilate fully because again, the hope is that they will one day be able to return.
> 
> And for those who do want to permanently relocate and do want to assimilate as well as they can, it important to understand how difficult that is. Learning a new language alone is a massive challenge, let alone trying to become someone who blends in without losing your entire self of who makes you who you are. And doing that while living through probably some serious MH issues, PTSD, shock, survivor guilt, and all the emotional trauma tied in to being a refugee...
> ...


Yes, I agree. I think for some people in this country life is very hard & even more so since the pandemic. We may not have a dictatorship or fear torture, murder, etc by the governing party but when people can barely afford to feed their families, have no jobs, have no adequate housing then fear they may be moved down the list of priorities yet again to make way for others I can understand their anger & frustration.

Again, another example of listening to concerns & trying to understand rather than labelling people as racists ...

I was reading comments about people complaining about there being a shortage of housing in this country when in reality it is a shortage of affordable housing. Doctors surgeries are full to capacity in some areas & again it is due to funding ... it is such a complicated issue.

I remember posts on here a while ago regarding (I think) Syrian refugees. There were queries regarding the age of the 'children' who were arriving & people were shot down on this when itn reality these were valid questions (IMO).

Some of these 'children' turned out to be grown men who were taking places of children who were desperately in need. There was also very few women, explanations regarding why this was the case just didn't sit right with me & I couldn't help but think it was yet another example of women being treated as second class ... I hope they are prioritised in this instance as they are the ones whose lives & rights will severely restricted under the Taliban


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Gemmaa said:


> Most recent video from Nowzad...
> https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=543009413516901&id=110252975672446&anchor_composer=false


He has been on the news and said that the home office is in contact with him.
He reiterated that he blames Biden for virtually all of this


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

It seems to be a depressingly familiar failure to plan, plan to fail scenario but with deadly consequences. If Rory Stewart was right that it would only take a modest expenditure to control Kabul for a period and the government chose not to do it but chose instead not to plan anything to save our dependants it doesn't come more cold or callous. 

Pen Farthing has more leadership capability in his fingernail than there is in our entire cabinet. He is doing everything he can to get his people to safety but the government here is justifying being on the beach instead of working to save lives. I despair.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

This is what really worries me because I can see it happening in the not so distant future.

https://www.euronews.com/2021/08/19...zOTY0ZDU2MGRmYzYwMzU3ZjgyM2UzZjgwMWVmNDcifQ==

*Taliban takeover could lead to renewed terror attacks in Europe *


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> the 'children' who were arriving


I do remember the ''bearded babies'' that one article mentioned!! This country has an extremely proud record of helping genuine refugees - European Jews escaping the Nazis, Kenyan Asians, Ugandans - we've helped many. However, I do think that population density should also be taken into account. Some countries like Australia (just an example) have something like 3 or 4 people per Km2, we have something like 400+, so some countries have far more space to accept and make sure their needs are catered for. Torquay apparently has said they are full - that's it, full; Kent too are going to struggle as they already have the migrants from Calais. But most areas that can are going to find room for some of them as they are genuine refugees as opposed to economic migrants..


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Calvine said:


> I do remember the ''bearded babies'' that one article mentioned!! This country has an extremely proud record of helping genuine refugees - European Jews escaping the Nazis, Kenyan Asians, Ugandans - we've helped many. However, I do think that population density should also be taken into account. Some countries like Australia (just an example) have something like 3 or 4 people per Km2, we have something like 400+, so some countries have far more space to accept and make sure their needs are catered for. Torquay apparently has said they are full - that's it, full; Kent too are going to struggle as they already have the migrants from Calais. But most areas that can are going to find room for some of them as they are genuine refugees as opposed to economic migrants..


Definitely although I suppose somewhere like Australia may be vast but you have to look at populated areas rather than areas that are very remote & almost inaccessible.

The pictures & stories from recent news articles have been horrific & I don't think anyone could not feel compassion for these people. They deserve a place of safety so i hope that countries work together in helping those at risk


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## Guest (Aug 21, 2021)

When looking at figures for refugees, you have to consider 'hosting' and what it means.Turkey, yes, is hosting a great number of refugees but these refugees are not set to become citizens of Turkey along with their children and grandchildren. It is not a tea and crumpet situation.
They are in camps being primarily cared for by agencies such as the UN. They crossed the border, as the border into Turkey, a safe country, was available from their country such as Syria or Iraq.
Though, Turkey also receives other migrants from places such as Pakistan who are hoping to pass into Europe.

Lebanon also is 'hosting' many not just Palestinians from 48 but more recently refugees from Syria and Iraq.

As was mentioned by another poster, many refugees do hope one day to return home but those are not likely to be the refugees looking to settle in Canada or Sweden and other far away places. It is more so the ones who stay in the camps and wait for the possibility to return.

If you look at resettlement figures that gives you a better idea of who is taking in refugees, as Turkey for example, does not intend or certainly hopes not that these refugees will stay, hence the camps vs resettlement efforts.

And to be fair to Turkey and Lebanon, they cannot absorb all the refugees without putting their own societies at risk. Lebanon is on a delicate balance among various groups and could not incorporate the Palestinians. Many of the refugees in Turkey are Kurds, and Turkey already has Kurds who are seeking more independence within the Kurdish area of Turkey.

Here are some more figures:

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-ta...d-in-refugee-resettlement-surpassing-the-u-s/

[URL]https://www.nrc.no/shorthand/fr/a-few-countries-take-responsibility-for-most-of-the-worlds-refugees/index.html


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

J. Dawson said:


> When looking at figures for refugees, you have to consider 'hosting' and what it means.Turkey, yes, is hosting a great number of refugees but these refugees are not set to become citizens of Turkey along with their children and grandchildren. It is not a tea and crumpet situation.
> They are in camps being primarily cared for by agencies such as the UN. They crossed the border, as the border into Turkey, a safe country, was available from their country such as Syria or Iraq.
> Though, Turkey also receives other migrants from places such as Pakistan who are hoping to pass into Europe.
> 
> ...


Turkey has closed its borders and is reinforcing the border wall to keep Afghan refugees from entering.

https://www.euronews.com/2021/08/20/turkey-builds-a-border-wall-to-stop-refugees-from-afghanistan
*
Turkey builds a border wall to stop refugees from Afghanistan*


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

"Being a refugee is not a choice. It's something imposed upon you." Gulwali Passarlay tells Jane Graham about his journey in this week's Letter To My Younger Self. Passarlay fled when he was just eleven years old.

https://www.bigissue.com/latest/gul...K95cGA0LzuaeHuJSLYYmeWWHpBO-b1xCUEM5SjXa-egLE


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

No One Left Behind is working to secure chartered flights and is the key organization helping to evacuate and resettle Afghans in the Special Immigration Visa (SIV) process. These flights are available to any Afghan that is at-risk. Donate on their website: https://nooneleft.org

International Refugee Assistance Program (IRAP) is providing legal resources for displaced Afghans, including support for the SIV process and Afghan P-2 refugee program, plus resources for persons not eligible for visa. Donate on their website: https://refugeerights.org

Church World Services is working to resettle Afghan refugees. Sign-up to sponsor a family arriving in your community. Donate to the resettlement efforts: https://cwsglobal.org


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

I think the big worry now is actually how to get people to the airport. Lots of paperwork being done and planes being chartered, but it looks like the Taliban is controlling airport access, as well as the roads to it.
How Nowzad is going to get 71 people and 200 animals actually onto the plane is the big issue.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I watched the new last night in tears, how can we leave this terrified people there.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Happy Paws2 said:


> I watched the new last night in tears, how can we leave this terrified people there.


I have a feeling we will be forced to in the end, by the Taliban


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

More from The Bug Issue which is the magazine for the Big Issue foundation which is a charity lead by Lord John Bird to tackle homelessness. The current issue addresses refugees and why it's important to help them alongside our growing homeless crisis 
https://www.bigissue.com/opinion/we...fazsE9JSqHRcFeOPfB16a7HK6uuj66UAISOKdi_iMT6hc


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

I think the local authority I work for will definitely be taking in some Afghans.

Our current chief exec used to be in the army and was a commanding officer in Afghanistan very early on in our activity there. He has intimate knowledge on the country and its people and his take on the situation is really interesting.

He seems very up for the challenge of helping some of those poor displaced people.

Edit: I forget to put the link in. https://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/new...an-tragedy-personal-one-staffordshire-5810607


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Sarah H said:


> How Nowzad is going to get 71 people and 200 animals actually onto the plane is the big issue.


Honestly Im not sure how they could justify using a plane to transport 200 animals when there are women and children who wont be getting out (and I say that as an animal lover!).



MilleD said:


> I think the local authority I work for will definitely be taking in some Afghans.


Im sure we are.I live along the coast in Kent....only difference will be this lot will have arrived legally!
Cant believe what a complete b*llend Biden has turned out to be. US are the ones with all the cards to play and they are acting appallingly (obvi I mean the government! Im sure the average citizen and solider over there feels as bad as everybody else).


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

rona said:


> I have a feeling we will be forced to in the end, by the Taliban


The Taliban only have to sit and wait because very shortly this will be yesterday's news and something else will grab the headlines.

Sadly it's the way of today's world.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

catz4m8z said:


> Honestly Im not sure how they could justify using a plane to transport 200 animals when there are women and children who wont be getting out (and I say that as an animal lover!).
> 
> Im sure we are.I live along the coast in Kent....only difference will be this lot will have arrived legally!
> Cant believe what a complete b*llend Biden has turned out to be. US are the ones with all the cards to play and they are acting appallingly (obvi I mean the government! Im sure the average citizen and solider over there feels as bad as everybody else).


There was this video this morning:
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?ref...92fb7914-dc67-4d3e-8411-18810f7cc6d0&q=nowzad


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

catz4m8z said:


> Honestly Im not sure how they could justify using a plane to transport 200 animals when there are women and children who wont be getting out (and I say that as an animal lover!).
> 
> .


I completely agree. Someone suggested on their FB page that it would be better for the animals to be PTS now rather than causing them any further distress & possible inhumane treatment is seized by the Taliban. I also thought that was the best option as how could those animals lives be put before those of desperate people?


----------



## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Another update...he starts talking properly at about 1:41. Quite a lengthy one with a fair bit of waffle towards the end



__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=332813301913816


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

ah well, I suppose that explains it abit better. If its a commercial privately payed for plane then they probably legally arent allowed to put people in their cargo hold (pity, as Im sure alot of people would happily jump in there!).
I hope he manages to get everyone out. Just worrying if the Taliban moves in before they are ready as I imagine those animals would have a very horrible ending.


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Happy Paws2 said:


> That's the only problem I have......If they want to live in any country you should live by our values,
> 
> Many come here for a better live but still treat their own women as slaves!





Happy Paws2 said:


> I watched the new last night in tears, how can we leave this terrified people there.


I presume you mean the same people as you mentioned above that must conform to 'our' rules

I shall just leave this here for thought and remove myself from the thread again, 
self censorship is definitely safer, for the thread, than saying what I want to say :Angelic


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

mrs phas said:


> I presume you mean the same people as you mentioned above that must conform to 'our' rules
> 
> I shall just leave this here for thought and remove myself from the thread again,


Yes if you like, if you live in a country you should live by their rules how ever you get there.


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

rona said:


> I have a feeling we will be forced to in the end, by the Taliban


Not likely. The Taliban is actually in a really bad position right now. They're dealing with protests and armed resistance. If they start not allowing American citizens, European citizens and refugees through or start killing many of them, the USA military would have every incentive to just start bringing out American soldiers into the city and possibly even assist the resistance. The people of the Taliban know that too. There's already American fighter jets patrolling the city and God knows what other classified tech and stuff around Kabul and Afghanistan. God knows what the military knows at this point and I bet 10 to 1 that the CIA or special forces are on the ground already.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Also other rescues need help.

https://www.facebook.com/kabulsmallanimalrescue


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## Guest (Aug 22, 2021)

The war is still going on as the Afghanistan Resistance Fighters are fighting the Taliban in various locations in Afghanistan. The Afghan Resistance Fighters Leader wants dialogue with the Taliban leader but if the Taliban leader refuses the war will carry on.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

This from Veronica Dearly - I want to post on so many places. But chose your sources wisely


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Thats just what I was thinking TBH! These kind of things happen in other countries but normally we just dont hear much about it so can avoid thinking about it but with all the media attention, internet and social media nobody can avoid knowing what is going on.
Makes you wonder how the people in power *cough*Biden live with theirselves.


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

catz4m8z said:


> Honestly Im not sure how they could justify using a plane to transport 200 animals when there are women and children who wont be getting out (and I say that as an animal lover!).
> I am so glad this man all his staff and all the animals will get out soon.They have managed to get the money to get the plane. Good for them.
> 
> Im sure we are.I live along the coast in Kent....only difference will be this lot will have arrived legally!
> Cant believe what a complete b*llend Biden has turned out to be. US are the ones with all the cards to play and they are acting appallingly (obvi I mean the government! Im sure the average citizen and solider over there feels as bad as everybody else).


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

catz4m8z said:


> Honestly Im not sure how they could justify using a plane to transport 200 animals when there are women and children who wont be getting out (and I say that as an animal lover!).
> 
> Im sure we are.I live along the coast in Kent....only difference will be this lot will have arrived legally!
> Cant believe what a complete b*llend Biden has turned out to be. US are the ones with all the cards to play and they are acting appallingly (obvi I mean the government! Im sure the average citizen and solider over there feels as bad as everybody else).


The animals and staff should get out soon, They managed to get the funds for the plane. Come home soon.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

UK areas listed region by region with details of the help they need on this website here. You just complete the form and tick any areas where you can provide support. 
https://www.help-refugees-uk.service.gov.uk


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

catz4m8z said:


> Cant believe what a complete b*llend Biden has turned out to be.


Indeed! Can you imagine if it were The Donald in Biden's place today, what all the ''celebs'' would be saying about him? The ones who used their award acceptance speeches simply as an opportunity to bad-mouth him:

Robert de Niro
Cher
George Clooney
Bette Midler
Meryl Streep
Madonna

. . . and the list goes on. Their current silence about Biden is pretty deafening.


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

Calvine said:


> Indeed! Can you imagine if it were The Donald in Biden's place today, what all the ''celebs'' would be saying about him? The ones who used their award acceptance speeches simply as an opportunity to bad-mouth him:
> 
> Robert de Niro
> Cher
> ...


That's American politics the way it is right now. An almost cult-like following of presidents. Joe Biden's approval rating has changed but just barely according to 538 and in a few weeks it'll probably recover. I love that 538 site. I'm sure some people would argue that their silence is only fair after all the silence about Trump questioning the integrity of the elections and Trump trashing the free press. I definitely do agree with his behavior being dangerous for democracy. A politician should never behave like that and the situation in Afghanistan is definitely an example of the importance of democracy.

I'm really curious about the conversations Joe Biden had behind closed doors with the heads of the military. I do somewhat commend Joe Biden for making a politically risky decision that should've been made over a decade ago. However, it has turned into a mess and he was likely being quite rash here. Pulling out right before the 20th anniversary of 9/11 was in rather poor taste as well.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

https://www.itv.com/news/westcountr...tan-says-rescue-plane-for-his-team-not-coming


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Gemmaa said:


> https://www.itv.com/news/westcountr...tan-says-rescue-plane-for-his-team-not-coming


Just


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

We need to let Ben Wallace know what we think about blocking this plane.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

rottieboys said:


> We need to let Ben Wallace know what we think about blocking this plane.


There's just been an update on this on the news. They are not willing to let the plane block other planes coming in for possibly days while the staff are processed because they think there are people that are at much higher risk then animal shelter workers.

The airport is apparently being run by American military


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

I have just sent email to No 10 , about my disgust what is happening. I doubt it will get anyway.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

So disappointing for them I can’t even imagine what’s going to happen to those animals.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

What can we do to help ?


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

MollySmith said:


> UK areas listed region by region with details of the help they need on this website here. You just complete the form and tick any areas where you can provide support.
> https://www.help-refugees-uk.service.gov.uk


I looked to see what I could do in my county but sadly there's currently nothing on there I can help with, food is pretty much all I can really offer but they aren't asking for that, I will keep checking back though.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Boxer123 said:


> View attachment 474896
> What can we do to help ?


Im probably going to be insensitive and unsympathetic here, but has his refusal to leave the dogs behind put all those staff and his family at risk?

Had he PTS at the start, what are the chances they would all have been able to evacuate?

Its a sad situation, but i feel human life should come first and foremost.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Nonnie said:


> Im probably going to be insensitive and unsympathetic here, but has his refusal to leave the dogs behind put all those staff and his family at risk?
> 
> Had he PTS at the start, what are the chances they would all have been able to evacuate?
> 
> Its a sad situation, but i feel human life should come first and foremost.


I read it that hes struggling to get the humans out as well but I agree sadly PTS is the best option it's just so sad.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Boxer123 said:


> I read it that hes struggling to get the humans out as well but I agree sadly PTS is the best option it's just so sad.


Its always been my concern that by refusing to accept this as a possibility he was going to be putting his staff at risk and maybe condemning the animals to a much worse end.
I dont see how logistically he would be able to get all those animals to a plane anyways, given that people are being crushed to death in the crowds surrounding the airport. Not to mention the fact that there are already so many animals in this country that need rehoming.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Just to show that Hungary is doing its bit to help evacuate people from Kabul

https://abouthungary.hu/news-in-bri...71V3pIj-xvP9MuJcSu_G9uPFJVHFna8sNpaTquCQb1lkw

*Aircraft involved in Afghanistan rescue operations arrives in Budapest*


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

Nonnie said:


> Im probably going to be insensitive and unsympathetic here, but has his refusal to leave the dogs behind put all those staff and his family at risk?
> 
> Had he PTS at the start, what are the chances they would all have been able to evacuate?
> 
> Its a sad situation, but i feel human life should come first and foremost.


It is a very sad situation but I agree with you. At least for the animals, there is the option of a safe, humane death surrounded by the staff members they trust in a place they have called home for however long. For the humans currently in Afghanistan that is not an option. If it is not already happening then I feel the animals deserve to be euthanised safely and comfortably before things get very bad for them.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Gemmaa said:


> https://www.itv.com/news/westcountr...tan-says-rescue-plane-for-his-team-not-coming


And yet we manage to get people in that are on the no-fly list....

Afghan 'on no-fly list jets into UK on British plane during Kabul evacuation' (msn.com)


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Nonnie said:


> Im probably going to be insensitive and unsympathetic here, but has his refusal to leave the dogs behind put all those staff and his family at risk?
> 
> Had he PTS at the start, what are the chances they would all have been able to evacuate?
> 
> Its a sad situation, but i feel human life should come first and foremost.


How could they have PTS at the start? They had absolutely no idea how this would play out.

Imagine they had and then they were allowed to leave. Can't even imagine how they would feel then.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

It looks like they might be able to get out now just waiting on paperwork from the home office.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Pen Farthing's animals are going in the cargo hold. Humans aren't allowed in there, his animals aren't taking a seat, 250 people will be seated above the hold. 

According to the Barking Bugle via Nowzad... "I know you’ve all been really worried about the situation with Nowzad. Things were looking really up as Boris Johnson approved visas and passage for all animals and staff ….now Ben Wallace (defence secretary) has blocked everything! "


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I am undecided TBH, cargo travel is stressful for animals and we've got a huge crisis in rescues thanks to illegal imports and idiots taking in dogs without thinking longer term in the pandemic, but...... I also think the welfare of the animals, Farthing and his team matter too. To put those animals to sleep due to the violent and unwanted actions of another would be incredibly hard to bear and ultimately they have to try. We can all sit here and shout from our armchairs but going back to a much used phrase here, we've not walked in their shoes and we should offer all respect. I have donated and will continue to and have applied to volunteer to provide support to refugees through the link I posted yesterday.


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

Hopefully Nowzad and the Kabul Animal Rescue employees and volunteers will be out of Afghanistan soon.


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

If I were operating an animal rescue in Afghanistan, I'd be upset about needing to leave, no longer having a rescue and possibly never seeing the place again. There is some beautiful scenery in Afghanistan. I can't imagine how they feel right now. Hopefully they will both be able to start a rescue in some other part of the world.


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

Given their situation, I'd likely just humanely euthanize all the animals in my care and get my employees *out* of there. If desperate enough, I might even shoot the animals. Not as humane, IMO, but given the circumstances... O.O Death by gun is likely more humane than what those sick people might do.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Interesting that they were able to rescue, and fit a CAR, on a plane.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

DogLover1981 said:


> Given their situation, I'd likely just humanely euthanize all the animals in my care and get my employees *out* of there. If desperate enough, I might even shoot the animals. Not as humane, IMO, but given the circumstances... O.O Death by gun is likely more humane than what those sick people might do.


Fortunately we've never had to be in that position. I simply cannot imagine.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

They are now suggesting that the Taliban is banning any local from leaving, only foreigners can go. At this point NOWZAD should be praying they can just get their people out....nm the animals.


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

catz4m8z said:


> They are now suggesting that the Taliban is banning any local from leaving, only foreigners can go. At this point NOWZAD should be praying they can just get their people out....nm the animals.


They'd be inviting an all out war doing that and Taliban is not in a good position at the moment.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

DogLover1981 said:


> They'd be inviting an all out war doing that and Taliban is not in a good position at the moment.


Surely they've never been in a better position? US are the only ones with enough troops on the ground to make a difference and they have abandoned the country. We are down to the last few days now and so many locals who aided foreign troops and services will be left behind. This whole thing is a travesty and I really don't know how Biden can justify his decisions.
RIP human rights in Afghanistan....


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Fingers crossed for them!
https://www.itv.com/news/westcountr...en-go-ahead-to-leave-afghanistan-with-animals


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Just opened latest National Geographic and saw this picture.









"Kate Sangi bazaar in Western Kabul hums with early morning activity in April, during the Islamic holy month of Ramadan.
Most of Afghanistan's people are Sunni Muslims. Minority Shiites are often targeted by Sunni militants"


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Meanwhile in Crete, the sea was closed.... 
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-raab-insists-didnt-go-24832477

1. Distraction from the fact Johnson was also on holiday
2. How did he know the sea was 'shut', he'd have to go to find out
3. Rabb is the new Hancock Scapegoat.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Saw a clip of the folks outside the airport on the telly yesterday. A Taliban guy was beating one of the people waiting in line with a stick. Then one of his mates grabbed him and gestured towards the camera that was filming them and he stopped.

Just about says it all really.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

MollySmith said:


> Meanwhile in Crete, the sea was closed....
> https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-raab-insists-didnt-go-24832477


I really think people's efforts need to be focused elsewhere.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

MilleD said:


> I really think people's efforts need to be focused elsewhere.


Yes, it's a distraction from other failings.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

MollySmith said:


> Yes, it's a distraction from other failings.


It's a distraction from the job in hand.

There will be plenty of time to trawl over the "who did what" - clue, Labour did none of it, not even the useful stuff.

Now is the time to sort out what needs actually doing to help people.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

MilleD said:


> It's a distraction from the job in hand.
> 
> There will be plenty of time to trawl over the "who did what" - clue, Labour did none of it, not even the useful stuff.
> 
> Now is the time to sort out what needs actually doing to help people.


No politician has come out of this well on any side but the Tories are diabolical as they could be useful, it's the bare minimum on every job. In my opinion.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1430762647453110272
ETA: Dominic Dyer did an update as well

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1430762821235712000


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

A suicide attack has just taken place outside Kabul airport. Believed to be by the ISIS-K group.


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2021)

Magyarmum said:


> A suicide attack has just taken place outside Kabul airport. Believed to be by the ISIS-K group.


Just seen this on the news. I think the remaining soldiers will just leave now as the situation is to dangerous on the ground.

This first explosion is believed to be a suicide bomber at the Baron Hotel and the second was a car bomb outside Abbey Gate at the airport. Some US soldiers have been injured. A number of civilians have been killed and injured.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)




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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

Explosions from a terrorist attack outside of the airport with some Americans killed.  At this rate, will the USA decide to retake Afghanistan? I'm beginning to wonder if withdrawing from Afghanistan was a mistake, especially this quickly. O.O

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/26/1031244804/kabul-airport-explosion-afghanistan


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## Isolette (Jul 5, 2021)

Praying .


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

DogLover1981 said:


> Explosions from a terrorist attack outside of the airport with some Americans killed. At this rate, will the USA decide to retake Afghanistan? I'm beginning to wonder if withdrawing from Afghanistan was a mistake, especially this quickly. O.O
> 
> https://www.npr.org/2021/08/26/1031244804/kabul-airport-explosion-afghanistan


Would they not be more likely glad to be getting out and let Islamic State and The Taliban get on with fighting between themselves? genuine question because I have no idea. It is a terrible situation, my heart goes out to all those poor people, those that are have the paperwork to leave the country but wondering on the earth how that is going to be possible and those with no hope of fleeing but terrified of what the future may hold.


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## Isolette (Jul 5, 2021)

3dogs2cats said:


> Would they not be more likely glad to be getting out and let Islamic State and The Taliban get on with fighting between themselves? genuine question because I have no idea. It is a terrible situation, my heart goes out to all those poor people, those that are have the paperwork to leave the country but wondering on the earth how that is going to be possible and those with no hope of fleeing but terrified of what the future may hold.


There are so many innocent and vulnerable people still trapped out there who will be killed if they cannot escape. They know what the future will hold if they cannot escape. There is an interview online by an Irish/Afghan lady dual nationality who only got out as she has an Irish passport and her account of the situation breaks the heart. Sorry; cannot link but it is one of the Irish news sites, As soon as they saw her Irish passport they let her through. Others have no such escape unless we get them out. Be thankful other nations have a conscience and care.


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2021)

DogLover1981 said:


> Explosions from a terrorist attack outside of the airport with some Americans killed.  At this rate, will the USA decide to retake Afghanistan? I'm beginning to wonder if withdrawing from Afghanistan was a mistake, especially this quickly. O.O
> 
> https://www.npr.org/2021/08/26/1031244804/kabul-airport-explosion-afghanistan


I doubt very much that America wants to continue this war in Afghanistan (they have been there 20 years with its allies) it will be more than likely all evacuations of civilians will stop and the soldiers will concentrate on getting themselves out of there as there isn't many of them left there (soldiers that is, because some have been leaving on evacuation flights with civilians). This isn't the west's war anymore. The Afghan soldiers fled to leave the Taliban to take control. Afghanistan is an not a winnable war, the Russians tried and left, the west has tried and we are leaving.


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## Isolette (Jul 5, 2021)

oldeecatowner said:


> I doubt very much that America wants to continue this war in Afghanistan (they have been there 20 years with its allies) it will be more than likely all evacuations of civilians will stop and the soldiers will concentrate on getting themselves out of there as there isn't many of them left there (soldiers that is, because some have been leaving on evacuation flights with civilians). This isn't the west's war anymore. The Afghan soldiers fled to leave the Taliban to take control. Afghanistan is an not a winnable war, the Russians tried and left, the west has tried and we are leaving.


Evacuations are the issue here not war. Humanitarian considerations not military. The test if a civilised nation. Ireland is committed to taking three hundred now. 
A terrible situation and dilemma but also a complicated one with many aspects. 
Unenviable decisions to be taken now. 
There will be reprisals against anyone known to have tried to leave and failed. Be sure of that. And fatal.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/factbox-evacuations-from-afghanistan-by-country/46897346

*Factbox-Evacuations from Afghanistan by country*


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

3dogs2cats said:


> Would they not be more likely glad to be getting out and let Islamic State and The Taliban get on with fighting between themselves? genuine question because I have no idea. It is a terrible situation, my heart goes out to all those poor people, those that are have the paperwork to leave the country but wondering on the earth how that is going to be possible and those with no hope of fleeing but terrified of what the future may hold.


That's true. 

If these terrorist groups have an unoccupied home base in Afghanistan, there could potentially be more similar terrorist incidents in Europe and the United States at this point. I think people forget that no one country lives in a bubble and there could be some negative affects of this mess for other parts of the world. At the very least, I expect security to be increased in many places.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

DogLover1981 said:


> That's true.
> 
> If these terrorist groups have an unoccupied home base in Afghanistan, there could potentially be more similar terrorist incidents in Europe and the United States at this point. I think people forget that no one country lives in a bubble and there could be some negative affects of this mess for other parts of the world. At the very least, I expect security to be increased in many places.


I think it would be far more accurate to say "certainly" instead of "potentially".


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

I could see a decision to temporarily increase the number of soldiers on the ground in order to secure the airport after the terrorist attacks.

Whether leaving or staying, both options have their own problems. I don't know what the solution is, really. It's a mess there.


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2021)

DogLover1981 said:


> I can also see a temporary increase in the number of soldiers on the ground in order to secure the airport.


That's a good idea but it means there will be more soldiers to evacuate before the 31st August as this is a hard deadline. If America leaves the rest of the allied forces will leave.


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

Four U.S. Marines killed at the airport. 

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/26/1031244804/kabul-airport-explosion-afghanistan


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

I really hope Paul “Pen” Farthing and his animals make it out.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Mum2Heidi said:


> I really hope Paul "Pen" Farthing and his animals make it out.


They said on the news that him and his team were targeted. Scary stuff.


----------



## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

He was just on the BBC, I only caught a bit of it, but it looks like they're back where they started, and it sounds like Biden has changed the rules so only passport holders can get out, so the Nowzad staff won't be able to leave.

I was so badly hoping it would end happily, and we could have a little bit of light in a horrible situation 

ETA: Here's part of the interview

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1430974032170688521


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2021)

60 Civilians killed including children.
12 US Soldiers also killed (11 Marines and one Navy Medic)
143 wounded.

ISIS claim responsibility. More attacks expected. Biden has not changed the deadline date of the 31st August.

It's assumed the suicide bomber was being searched when he detonated the bomb (This is only an assumption).

The second attacker opened fired on civilians and US soldiers.

Biden doing speech at 10pm UK time (5pm local time).

https://news.sky.com/story/first-us...en-after-deadline-afghanistan-latest-12385846

People are now being told not to travel to the airport in Kabul.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/factbox-evacuations-from-afghanistan-by-country/46897346
> 
> *Factbox-Evacuations from Afghanistan by country*


We take by far the most of western countries again! Despite being the smallest country!


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

rona said:


> We take by far the most of western countries again! Despite being the smallest country!


Nope not true, historically we've sent more people back under successive governments. I'm also very suspicious of that article but there's nothing on Full Fact yet about the figures mostly because nobody has them yet!
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...refugees-is-not-generous-but-blindly-inhumane


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

rona said:


> We take by far the most of western countries again! Despite being the smallest country!


The way I read it, the article is reporting on total evacuations, not refugees, so most of those will have been British citizens who were working in Afghanistan, not Afghans.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Jesthar said:


> The way I read it, the article is reporting on total evacuations, not refugees, so most of those will have been British citizens who were working in Afghanistan, not Afghans.


So we had massively more than USA!


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

rona said:


> So we had massively more than USA!


That's not unlikely at all. Particularly on the charity side of things.


----------



## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

Twelve soldiers were killed. It's sad to hear that American soldiers were killed while assisting the evacuation efforts.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Jesthar said:


> The way I read it, the article is reporting on total evacuations, not refugees, so most of those will have been British citizens who were working in Afghanistan, not Afghans.


8000 Afghan nationals have been bought out so far. That's more than most countries have done in total!
Most countries have already stopped their efforts.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Beth78 said:


> They said on the news that him and his team were targeted. Scary stuff.


Very scary! Apparently they are all ok. Hope that's still the case.

Edit to add. He's no longer in the airport compound. Wouldn't leave his people behind and took his animals back outside with them.


----------



## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

How sad they didn't make it back home....


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

So far we have managed to get out 
UK 13.146 
USA 48.000 
France 1720
Norway 278
Germany 4600
Spain 1900

It's worrying time is running out.


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Jesthar said:


> The way I read it, the article is reporting on total evacuations, not refugees, so most of those will have been British citizens who were working in Afghanistan, not Afghans.


Not necessarily. Some countries like Austria don't/didn't have any planes so other countries such as Hungary were airlifting their nationals and Afghan employees for them.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2021)

Ben Wallace has said UK operations in Afghanistan will be over in a matter of hours.

In English this means UK soldiers are being evacuated out of Afghanistan and the civilian evacuations are finished for the UK.

Apparently there is 1000 people on flights to the UK at present.

I am happy about the decision to pull UK soldiers out, why put them at risk of being targeted after last night's terror attacks in Kabul.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Magyarmum said:


> Not necessarily. Some countries like Austria don't/didn't have any planes so other countries such as Hungary were airlifting their nationals and Afghan employees for them.


Yes, the USA have been dropping people in all sorts of countries. Not sure if they are to be left there or will eventually make their way to America!

seems sensible, shorter trips, more people got out of there


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

This all just seems so senseless given that the next big terrorist attack (which is now pretty much a given) on US soil will force them back into the country again.
It will all have been for nothing.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

*. ALL KNOWN HUNGARIANS IN AFGHANISTAN EVACUATED*

The Hungarian army has evacuated altogether 540 people from Afghanistan, including all Hungarian citizens known to be in the country, Defence Minister Tibor Benkő said.

Besides Hungarian citizens, the Hungarian forces have also airlifted US, Austrian and Afghan citizens in a seven-day operation that began on August 19, he told a press conference. Answering a question, the minister confirmed that the evacuation operation had been concluded. All Hungarians requesting assistance were brought back to Hungary, as were all Afghan citizens who had cooperated with the Hungarian armed forces over its 18-year deployment and requested evacuation "on time", Benkő said. Some 87% of "Afghans with ties to Hungary" were evacuated, including 57 families and 180 children, he said. The government ordered the evacuation of Hungarian citizens on August 17, and the army's resources were scrambled by the afternoon of the next day. The operation started early on August 19, he added. The armed forces used two Airbus A319s to fly the evacuees from Afghanistan to Uzbekistan, in 14 flight rounds during the operation's seven days. They then transferred to passenger planes of Wizz Air and the Uzbek airline company which brought them to Hungary, Benkő said.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2021)

catz4m8z said:


> This all just seems so senseless given that the next big terrorist attack (which is now pretty much a given) on US soil will force them back into the country again.
> It will all have been for nothing.


It was senseless going in, in the first place, look at all the soldiers that lost their lives or got seriously injured over the last 20 years fighting the Taliban to replace the Taliban with the Taliban. The Afghan soldiers with American equipment didn't even fight the Taliban and allowed them to take power again.

There comes a time when Afghanistan needs to govern itself instead of being influenced by other countries.

Russia tried to fight the Taliban but gave up as well.


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## Pawscrossed (Jul 2, 2013)

MollySmith said:


> Nope not true, historically we've sent more people back under successive governments. I'm also very suspicious of that article but there's nothing on Full Fact yet about the figures mostly because nobody has them yet!
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...refugees-is-not-generous-but-blindly-inhumane


Priti Pratel also went ahead with the mass expulsion to Zimbabwe this week. News which we all may have missed because we are being distracted. 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1431149834623496198


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Pawscrossed said:


> Priti Pratel also went ahead with the mass expulsion to Zimbabwe this week. News which we all may have missed because we are being distracted.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1431149834623496198


I thought this was repatriating folks who had come to this country but broke our laws. And therefore the terms of being here?

Edit to add - are you seriously suggesting that the stuff going on in Afghanistan is a distraction technique??


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

MilleD said:


> Edit to add - are you seriously suggesting that the stuff going on in Afghanistan is a distraction technique??


I believe the pertinant political phrase is something along the lines of "a good time to bury negative news"


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Biden is talking about taking action now.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2021)

Happy Paws2 said:


> Biden is talking about taking action now.


Rep. Madison Cawthorn wants Kamala Harris to invoke the 25th Amendment I heard on the news this morning saying Biden is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office.


----------



## Pawscrossed (Jul 2, 2013)

MilleD said:


> I thought this was repatriating folks who had come to this country but broke our laws. And therefore the terms of being here?
> 
> Edit to add - are you seriously suggesting that the stuff going on in Afghanistan is a distraction technique??





Jesthar said:


> I believe the pertinant political phrase is something along the lines of "a good time to bury negative news"


yes, thank you @Jesthar that is what I meant. @MilleD absolutely not. More news we may have missed whilst our focus was on the awful situation in Afghanistan.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Something positive here, I hope. An article about people offering space through charities with links if you're interested in doing the same. I make no apologies for more links, I'm trying to be proactive and useful than get into political wrangling. 
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...r-to-host-afghan-refugees-after-fall-of-kabul


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

oldeecatowner said:


> Rep. Madison Cawthorn wants Kamala Harris to invoke the 25th Amendment I heard on the news this morning saying Biden is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office.


Seeing as the white house left a man with diagnosed dementia 'in charge,' for at least 2 years after they knew about the diagnosis 
And 
They made a misogynistic, racist, war mongering, bigot and letch, twice bankrupt, their president, despite numerous attempts to oust him 
I doubt anything will happen


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

MollySmith said:


> An article about people offering space through charities with links if you're interested in doing the same.


I happily would, as I have a spare bedroom and could make my dining room private for them, if they wished 
But 
They don't want the likes of me, living in semi rural suffolk
I would have thought, temporarily, anywhere would be better than a refugee camp or hostel


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## teddylion (Oct 16, 2019)

Why was Trump war mongering? Not a fan, but my understanding is he was quite the opposite.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Pen Farthing has apparently been allowed to leave with the animals, but has had to leave his staff behind. Goodness only knows what will happen to them 

The MOD still insist on calling the rescues "pets". It feels like they are doing it on purpose to downplay what he was trying to achieve.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

What I don't understand is why they didn't bring in some of the worlds big airlines like British Airways, Easy Jet and use some of their planes to help.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

MilleD said:


> Pen Farthing has apparently been allowed to leave with the animals, but has had to leave his staff behind. Goodness only knows what will happen to them
> 
> The MOD still insist on calling the rescues "pets". It feels like they are doing it on purpose to downplay what he was trying to achieve.


This article in the Metro seems to be a bit clearer on what happened........

https://metro.co.uk/2021/08/28/nowz...f-behind-as-he-escapes-with-animals-15167441/


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Happy Paws2 said:


> What I don't understand is why they didn't bring in some of the worlds big airlines like British Airways, Easy Jet and use some of their planes to help.


Commercial airlines are diverting routes so as not to actually fly over the country, I doubt they would want to land in Kabul.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Not at all worrying:










Afghanistan: Music will be banned and women will need male chaperones | Metro News


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

buffie said:


> This article in the Metro seems to be a bit clearer on what happened........
> 
> https://metro.co.uk/2021/08/28/nowz...f-behind-as-he-escapes-with-animals-15167441/


What brilliant selfless people to insist Pen takes the animals to safety and leaves them behind.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

MilleD said:


> Commercial airlines are diverting routes so as not to actually fly over the country, I doubt they would want to land in Kabul.


The Hungarian military was airlifting people from Kabul to Ubekistan where they were brought by Wizzair to Budapest. The US are doing something similar with their evacuees.

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-25/how-airlines-paricipate-in-afghanistan-evacuation

*Airlines are helping in Afghanistan evacuations. How does that work?*


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Happy Paws2 said:


> What I don't understand is why they didn't bring in some of the worlds big airlines like British Airways, Easy Jet and use some of their planes to help.


I doubt they would want to take the risk of the planes being shot down. A commercial airliner has zero defence for being shot at, unlike military planes which are designed to be shot at and therefore have things like armoured fuel tanks and cabins, plus have decoys and defences built in. Pretty sure ISIS would love to shoot down a plane full of infidel refugees...


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I heard a large plane fly nearby towards Brize this morning. Must be one of the last ones of not the last one.

The RAF are trained to fly into places where there are dangers and know how to deal with it. A standard commercial pilot wouldn’t have those skills nor would the commercial planes be suitable in these circumstances. No idea how big the airport is at Kabul and whether planes like Jumbo’s are able to land and take off safely.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

MilleD said:


> Pen Farthing has apparently been allowed to leave with the animals, but has had to leave his staff behind. Goodness only knows what will happen to them
> 
> The MOD still insist on calling the rescues "pets". It feels like they are doing it on purpose to downplay what he was trying to achieve.


The relief of reading this on the news today. Yes, I do think there's something in the term 'pets' too.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Happy Paws2 said:


> What I don't understand is why they didn't bring in some of the worlds big airlines like British Airways, Easy Jet and use some of their planes to help.


Insurance, experience. My cousin is a pilot for Lufthansa and would dearly love to but it's a complete different situation. They can't even fly over at the moment never mind land. Though I see your point, if only.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

mrs phas said:


> I happily would, as I have a spare bedroom and could make my dining room private for them, if they wished
> But
> They don't want the likes of me, living in semi rural suffolk
> I would have thought, temporarily, anywhere would be better than a refugee camp or hostel


on a previous page I posted a link to councils who need help with other things if that's at all useful? You can look up your local area and see what they need, fill in a form and they'll get back to you.

I've signed up for teaching and cooking in our area. Nothing back yet.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> UK areas listed region by region with details of the help they need on this website here. You just complete the form and tick any areas where you can provide support.
> https://www.help-refugees-uk.service.gov.uk


@mrs phas and a bump up anyway


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

MollySmith said:


> @mrs phas and a bump up anyway


Thank you x
Stupid thing is we have a really high Muslim community (for such a small town) and all schools have Muslim children, don't get me wrong, I know the language is a barrier, but the religious support and community is here

Nothing near to be,
But
The churches together and, one, of the glut of white van men, have got together and are collecting toys, clothes, toiletries, women's sundries, etc to do a run, I shall sort something out through them


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

MollySmith said:


> The relief of reading this on the news today. Yes, I do think there's something in the term 'pets' too.


Anglia news are calling them rescues :Happy


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Siskin said:


> I heard a large plane fly nearby towards Brize this morning. Must be one of the last ones of not the last one.
> 
> The RAF are trained to fly into places where there are dangers and know how to deal with it. A standard commercial pilot wouldn't have those skills nor would the commercial planes be suitable in these circumstances. No idea how big the airport is at Kabul and whether planes like Jumbo's are able to land and take off safely.


Kabul airport is 3.5k long which is long enough for most commercials. Wasn't it used that way for years?

The C-17 cargo planes being used have special flaps to allow them to use shorter runways. But the main bonus is the anti attack measures they possess.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

MilleD said:


> Pen Farthing has apparently been allowed to leave with the animals, but has had to leave his staff behind. Goodness only knows what will happen to them
> 
> The MOD still insist on calling the rescues "pets". It feels like they are doing it on purpose to downplay what he was trying to achieve.


I didn't press like as much as I wanted too, felt I couldn't as his had to leave his staff behind


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

MollySmith said:


> on a previous page I posted a link to councils who need help with other things if that's at all useful? You can look up your local area and see what they need, fill in a form and they'll get back to you.
> 
> I've signed up for teaching and cooking in our area. Nothing back yet.


There's a charity in my town called hearts and hands who are collecting stuff for the refugees. They've had a really good response so far.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

A very good analysis of the worrisome distractions by the media and Pen Farthing. I don't agree with everything here, esp the sharpening of axes (hardly any lighting of sparks over on the opposition) but I do agree that Farthing has responded exactly how he was expected and played like a circus. Judging by Twitter, David Icke (oh yes!) will make Farthing yesterday's news very quickly. 
https://brokenbottleboy.substack.com/p/the-animals-of-pen-farthings-hood


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Pen and his animals have made it safely back to the UK.
Lovely news.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

The spectators view on the rescuing of Pen Farthing and his animals :Banghead:Banghead
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-shameful-evacuation-of-pen-farthing-s-pets-from-afghanistan


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

mrs phas said:


> The spectators view on the rescuing of Pen Farthing and his animals :Banghead:Banghead
> https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-shameful-evacuation-of-pen-farthing-s-pets-from-afghanistan


I refuse to give them traffic by clicking on the link. Without wishing to offend you, sharing links like this adds to their reading stats and income.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

MollySmith said:


> I refuse to give them traffic by clicking on the link. Without wishing to offend you, sharing links like this adds to their reading stats and income.


You don't want to balance out your views then? Just read what affirms them!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

MollySmith said:


> A very good analysis of the worrisome distractions by the media and Pen Farthing. I don't agree with everything here, esp the sharpening of axes (hardly any lighting of sparks over on the opposition) but I do agree that Farthing has responded exactly how he was expected and played like a circus. Judging by Twitter, David Icke (oh yes!) will make Farthing yesterday's news very quickly.
> https://brokenbottleboy.substack.com/p/the-animals-of-pen-farthings-hood


I don't know who all the British politicians and players are in that article, but I can very much sympathize with questioning why so much time and effort was put in to getting animals out of Kabul while Afghanis who interpreted for UK, US, and other foreign groups are still there and in desperate need as well. Even that Mr. Farthing refused to leave without the animals but didn't extent that same solidarity to his human Afghani staff sits difficultly with me. The humans should have had priority. The animals should have been humanely euthanized.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

O2.0 said:


> I don't know who all the British politicians and players are in that article, but I can very much sympathize with questioning why so much time and effort was put in to getting animals out of Kabul while Afghanis who interpreted for UK, US, and other foreign groups are still there and in desperate need as well. Even that Mr. Farthing refused to leave without the animals but didn't extent that same solidarity to his human Afghani staff sits difficultly with me. The humans should have had priority. The animals should have been humanely euthanized.


I have to agree with you on this.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> I don't know who all the British politicians and players are in that article, but I can very much sympathize with questioning why so much time and effort was put in to getting animals out of Kabul while Afghanis who interpreted for UK, US, and other foreign groups are still there and in desperate need as well. Even that Mr. Farthing refused to leave without the animals but didn't extent that same solidarity to his human Afghani staff sits difficultly with me. The humans should have had priority. The animals should have been humanely euthanized.


I don't think it was his or the British governments choice. I believe the British government were geared up to take them all, animals and staff, but either President Biden changed the rules or the Taliban, haven't quite figured that out yet but most of the press and Pen himself seem to be saying it was Biden


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rona said:


> I don't think it was his or the British governments choice. I believe the British government were geared up to take them all, animals and staff, but either President Biden changed the rules or the Taliban, haven't quite figured that out yet but most of the press and Pen himself seem to be saying it was Biden


We will likely never know, but the reality is, some human(s) looked at desperate human beings and chose to put animals on a cargo plane and fly them out of Kabul over them.

And not for nothing, with optics like this, it won't be hard for those unfriendly to the west to spin this and stories like this in to another reason why westerners are selfish and unfriendly and justify their anti-western values.


----------



## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> We will likely never know, but the reality is, some human(s) looked at desperate human beings and chose to put animals on a cargo plane and fly them out of Kabul over them.
> 
> And not for nothing, with optics like this, it won't be hard for those unfriendly to the west to spin this and stories like this in to another reason why westerners are selfish and unfriendly and justify their anti-western values.


I am so pleased he got his animals out. Well done to him. The cargo plane was paid private not the tax payers. WHY should he leave his animals there to their suffering's.


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

This was all Biden fault.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

rottieboys said:


> I am so pleased he got his animals out. Well done to him. The cargo plane was paid private not the tax payers. WHY should he leave his animals there to their suffering's.


No, it wasnt.

The plane he left on was funded by the MOD.

The money that was spent on his cargo plane was completely wasted.

Sad that he didnt put his staff first. Had he PTS at the start he would have had more time to sort out their paperwork, get them to the airport and get them to safety before the situation and requirements changed.

The fact he left as well, instead of staying behind (and apparently he's already buggered off to Norway) speaks volumes imo.

This was very much animals being put before desperate people, and i can see why certain politicians etc, got sick of him.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rottieboys said:


> I am so pleased he got his animals out. Well done to him. The cargo plane was paid private not the tax payers. WHY should he leave his animals there to their suffering's.


When the choice is as desperate as it was, people have to take precedence over animals. 
I don't understand why so much was made of the animals, there are animals suffering worldwide, and of course we should help where we can, but the situation is so desperate for the humans involved, I find it utterly callous to put so much time, energy, money, and effort in to the animals while leaving the human staff behind


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

He buggered off to Norway to see his wife. Good for him. As for Ben Wallace, well don't get back started on him.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

O2.0 said:


> We will likely never know, but the reality is, some human(s) looked at desperate human beings and chose to put animals on a cargo plane and fly them out of Kabul over them.
> 
> And not for nothing, with optics like this, it won't be hard for those unfriendly to the west to spin this and stories like this in to another reason why westerners are selfish and unfriendly and justify their anti-western values.


Well, this is how we are viewed by the Indian media.


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> We will likely never know, but the reality is, some human(s) looked at desperate human beings and chose to put animals on a cargo plane and fly them out of Kabul over them.
> 
> And not for nothing, with optics like this, it won't be hard for those unfriendly to the west to spin this and stories like this in to another reason why westerners are selfish and unfriendly and justify their anti-western values.





O2.0 said:


> When the choice is as desperate as it was, people have to take precedence over animals.
> I don't understand why so much was made of the animals, there are animals suffering worldwide, and of course we should help where we can, but the situation is so desperate for the humans involved, I find it utterly callous to put so much time, energy, money, and effort in to the animals while leaving the human staff behind


 Why did n't they start getting the people out earlier ? Why was there such a rush at the last moment.?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Magyarmum said:


> Well, this is how we are viewed by the Indian media.


----------



## Guest (Aug 29, 2021)

rottieboys said:


> He buggered off to Norway to see his wife. Good for him. As for Ben Wallace, well don't get back started on him.


What happened to all the dogs and cats he got onto the plane? According to the news he managed to get the dogs and cats on a plane with him but his staff got left behind.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

oldeecatowner said:


> What happened to all the dogs and cats he got onto the plane?


They're in quarantine. And some may end up being euthanized anyway


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

oldeecatowner said:


> What happened to all the dogs and cats he got onto the plane?


They landed at Heathrow and were taken to the Animal Reception Centre. I assume they check the documents and have a health check and would go to various kennels.


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2021)

O2.0 said:


> some may end up being euthanized anyway


That's sad


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I wonder if those who believe animals should take priority over humans in such a situation would feel the same way were one of those people a close relative of theirs?

In my opinion, if there was available space in a 'plane, then it should never have been used to transport animals.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> They're in quarantine. And some may end up being euthanized anyway


 oh , why ? After all they've been through.


----------



## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

Why are we interested what the Indian view is. How they treat their young women is awful.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rottieboys said:


> Why did n't they start getting the people out earlier ? Why was there such a rush at the last moment.?


I remember reading an article about an Afghani interpreter over a year ago, desperate to get out, afraid of retaliation by the Taliban, but getting his paperwork together was an utter nightmare and he kept hitting roadblocks. People have been trying to get out, the situation got desperate faster than anyone anticipated, and yes, Biden mishandled it terribly, but I don't think anyone really anticipated how bad it would get so quickly.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

rottieboys said:


> Why are we interested what the Indian view is. How they treat their young women is awful.


The Taliban are even worse - but according to you and many others, dogs are more important.

I dread to think of what horrors those poor women left behind are going to face. You know that under Islamic laws that if a woman is raped SHE is the guilty one, and they are often stoned to death or hanged for adultery or crimes against chastity?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Rafa said:


> I wonder if those who believe animals should take priority over humans in such a situation would feel the same way were one of those people a close relative of theirs?
> 
> In my opinion, if there was available space in a 'plane, then it should never have been used to transport animals.


They go in the hold , there were seats available on the plane but they the staff werent allowed on. I I dont know why .


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> oh , why ? After all they've been through.


That is the papers talking....I wonder how many? Let just wait and see.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

kimthecat said:


> oh , why ? After all they've been through.


If they have transmissible diseases or parasites or aren't healthy enough for adoption...


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> I remember reading an article about an Afghani interpreter over a year ago, desperate to get out, afraid of retaliation by the Taliban, but getting his paperwork together was an utter nightmare and he kept hitting roadblocks. People have been trying to get out, the situation got desperate faster than anyone anticipated, and yes, Biden mishandled it terribly, but I don't think anyone really anticipated how bad it would get so quickly.


People including the Daily mail have been campaigning for months to get the Interpreters and their families out. Some have had to leave their families behind.  The whole thing is a huge cock up. Did the UK and USA really believe that the Afghan army would be able to hold off the Taliban.  Even I knew they wouldnt.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> If they have transmissible diseases or parasites or aren't healthy enough for adoption...


They have to do 4 months quarantine first. There are no end of people offering homes. I hope that those offering to adopt and are unsuccessful will also think of UK dogs and cats needing homes.


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> People including the Daily mail have been campaigning for months to get the Interpreters and their families out. Some have had to leave their families behind.  The whole thing is a huge cock up. Did the UK and USA really believe that the Afghan army would be able to hold off the Taliban.  Even I knew they wouldnt.


It only took 11 days before they run away. 20 years UK and USA soldiers was there. I agree it could of been done better


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## margy (Dec 9, 2018)

From what I've read in the media he went with his staff to the airport and the Taliban wouldn't allow the staff through. The staff apparently pleaded with him to take the animal's and go without them. I often think what would I have done if there was a disaster, for example the storm that is about to hit New Orleans. Would I be able to leave Belle and Suzie behind if we were evacuated? Thank God I've never had to make that call.


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

margy said:


> From what I've read in the media he went with his staff to the airport and the Taliban wouldn't allow the staff through. The staff apparently pleaded with him to take the animal's and go without them. I often think what would I have done if there was a disaster, for example the storm that is about to hit New Orleans. Would I be able to leave Belle and Suzie behind if we were evacuated? Thank God I've never had to make that call.


But would you. I know I could not leave my animals.


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> If they have transmissible diseases or parasites or aren't healthy enough for adoption...


The magic word is IF.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

rottieboys said:


> Why are we interested what the Indian view is. How they treat their young women is awful.


Because to be balanced we should listen and read how others view the importance we, and other countries, put on animals and alcohol 
Otherwise we become insular and develop a false sense of entitlement (us/we as in global, not personal)


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

MollySmith said:


> I refuse to give them traffic by clicking on the link. Without wishing to offend you, sharing links like this adds to their reading stats and income.


It also gives people another pov 
Which is always good for discussion and diplomacy


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

My understanding is that first time out Farthing, staff and animals were in the airport, but the staff did not have a physical visa stamp and therefore were turned back, so they all went, and got caught up in the bombing. The Visa stamp requirement was introduced while they were in the queue,

Second time around the Taliban wouldn't let the Afghan staff through the checkpoint, and they had to decide to save some or none at that time. They are still trying to get the staff out.

Something called ARAP (Afghan relocations and assistance policy) - "a new scheme that will offer relocation or other assistance to current and former Locally Employed Staff in Afghanistan to reflect the changing situation in Afghanistan" - was launched on 1st April and the interpreters and others in A/stan should have been processed through that. The interpreters mostly weren't and many are now stranded. Some people are working their socks off to try and get them out in dribs and drabs. A lot of them are ex-military (e.g retired Major General Charlie Herbert) and are livid. Ex head of the Army Gen Lord Richard Dannatt has said that is it unfathomable that the UK Govt was asleep on the job, and has said there should be an enquiry. In July 45 senior officers wrote to the govt to warn them about the situation. 

In business they would be held liable. To miss a deadline so spectacularly would cost your job, possibly your career, and you might be held criminally liable.

IMO, the dogs and Farthing are a convenient distraction from this. People should be held accountable because this time our Government's arrogance has cost lives.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@Jonescat Thanks for explaining. It got a bit confusing. Typical of our useless Government.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-flee-afghanistan-fearing-taliban-persecution
*Hazara Shias flee Afghanistan fearing Taliban persecution*
Attacks on religious minority prompt exodus of thousands across border to Pakistan to seek safety

As word of Kabul's fall to the Taliban spread across Afghanistan, there were few who greeted the news with as much fear as the Hazara Shias. The religious minority in this Sunni majority country were among the most persecuted groups when the Taliban last ruled Afghanistan, and the memories of the killings, torture and mass executions have not faded.


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

mrs phas said:


> Because to be balanced we should listen and read how others view the importance we, and other countries, put on animals and alcohol
> Otherwise we become insular and develop a false sense of entitlement (us/we as in global, not personal)





Nonnie said:


> No, it wasnt.
> 
> The plane he left on was funded by the MOD.
> 
> ...


You got that wrong. The plane was NOT by the MOD. This plane was paid privately. Rachel Johnson was on LBC last night talking to Dominic Dyer , the spokesman for Pen Farthing. He said that the plane was paid by a beneficiary.


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> oh , why ? After all they've been through.


No, they are all healthy been examined by vets. Well done Pen.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

I’ve been reluctant to comment as I understand very little of what is going on at the moment. From what I can gather it was never a case of people vs animals he had plenty of room. The issue is people cannot get through due to paperwork issues or Taliban refusal. So he could have gone back euthanised the animals but his people would still be there. 

A British soldier on the news this morning is stuck due to paperwork his female staff who are also stuck are being threatened with rape. I think the animals are a bit of a red herring there could be a million planes there but people aren’t allowed on them. It’s utter chaos my heart goes out to everyone.


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

Boxer123 said:


> I've been reluctant to comment as I understand very little of what is going on at the moment. From what I can gather it was never a case of people vs animals he had plenty of room. The issue is people cannot get through due to paperwork issues or Taliban refusal. So he could have gone back euthanised the animals but his people would still be there.
> 
> A British soldier on the news this morning is stuck due to paperwork his female staff who are also stuck are being threatened with rape. I think the animals are a bit of a red herring there could be a million planes there but people aren't allowed on them. It's utter chaos my heart goes out to everyone.


I think you are right. Planes going half empty plus car taking room. Pen wanted to get people on his plane [ not just his staff] but was not allowed. Who can we blame for this mess. I know that guy with the dogs and cats. Yeah.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

Boxer123 said:


> I've been reluctant to comment as I understand very little of what is going on at the moment. From what I can gather it was never a case of people vs animals he had plenty of room. The issue is people cannot get through due to paperwork issues or Taliban refusal. So he could have gone back euthanised the animals but his people would still be there.
> 
> A British soldier on the news this morning is stuck due to paperwork his female staff who are also stuck are being threatened with rape. I think the animals are a bit of a red herring there could be a million planes there but people aren't allowed on them. It's utter chaos my heart goes out to everyone.


These are my feelings too. It's difficult to know exactly what's going on. I agree that humans should go first (though I can't even imagine how hard it would be to leave animals behind. If someone said I had to leave Teddy I would be devestated), but was it animals over humans or would the humans have been blocked anyway? It's hard to keep track


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

rottieboys said:


> Why are we interested what the Indian view is. How they treat their young women is awful.


Apart from it giving a different point of view, the report should worry you.

It confirms at least in the Taliban and their follower's eyes that the "degenerate" West places more importance on the welfare of "unclean animals" and alcohol than they do on people. A hypocritical argument maybe to our way of thinking but one that makes sense to them.

Over the past several years they've been using the internet including social media to promote their message and recruit new members.. In effect the report I posted was doing the work for them..

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blo...aliban-took-afghanistan-it-took-the-internet/

*Before the Taliban took Afghanistan, it took the internet*


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

Magyarmum said:


> Apart from it giving a different point of view, the report should worry you.
> 
> It confirms at least in the Taliban and their follower's eyes that the "degenerate" West places more importance on the welfare of "unclean animals" and alcohol than they do on people. A hypocritical argument maybe to our way of thinking but one that makes sense to them.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but the report does n't worry me. I am not going to click on it again. I think all round the world people have different views on animals. As for using the internet to promote their message and recruit new members. We will never stop that happening. We don n't even know who has come over to our country to hurt us .


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

mrs phas said:


> It also gives people another pov
> Which is always good for discussion and diplomacy


Nope it's not. The Spectator is owned by Andrew Neil who owns the Telegraph and GB News and has a bias. I always check who owns a paper and the level of accuracy in their reporting before I read a report. The Spectator is not an independent source.

If you read the link I posted, you'd understand that certain parts of the UK media have encouraged you and seemingly many others here to assume his 'pets' were sitting in seats enjoying snacks and drinks.

He's been played out as a selfish man who flew with empty seats. His plane was funded by private money and the animals went in the hold. Can we at least get the damm facts straight?!!

I said several pages back…. What price the welfare and mental health of the Nowzad staff and volunters if they had to euthanasize the animals?

There's a whole barrow load of conjecture on this thread. Thank goodness that it is just that and none of us here have been thought it.

I suggest our time is better spent donating and supporting if we choose to than causing hot air about a situation which is done. I agree Pen was aggressive but Jeez, he's not filing a bloody tax return…


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

MollySmith said:


> Nope it's not. The Spectator is owned by Andrew Neil who owns the Telegraph and GB News and has a bias. I always check who owns a paper and the level of accuracy in their reporting before I read a report. The Spectator is not an independent source.
> 
> If you read the link I posted, you'd understand that certain parts of the UK media have encouraged you and seemingly many others here to assume his 'pets' where sitting in seats enjoying snacks and drinks.


Hahaha. Your links are virtually always bias


----------



## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Boxer123 said:


> I've been reluctant to comment as I understand very little of what is going on at the moment. From what I can gather it was never a case of people vs animals he had plenty of room. The issue is people cannot get through due to paperwork issues or Taliban refusal. So he could have gone back euthanised the animals but his people would still be there.
> 
> A British soldier on the news this morning is stuck due to paperwork his female staff who are also stuck are being threatened with rape. I think the animals are a bit of a red herring there could be a million planes there but people aren't allowed on them. It's utter chaos my heart goes out to everyone.


I think I saw that Pens plane was crowd funded and I'm sure his wife said there were empty seats in the plane she travelled back on albeit earlier.

It's a difficult to know how to feel. I put animals over people everytime but I've asked myself in this instance how I would feel if it were my family.....animals are my family too


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

rottieboys said:


> Sorry, but the report does n't worry me. I am not going to click on it again. I think all round the world people have different views on animals. As for using the internet to promote their message and recruit new members. We will never stop that happening. We don n't even know who has come over to our country to hurt us .


Please yourself.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I didn't particularly like journalists after discovering many of them don't fact check (can't waste time fact checking in case someone else gets there first) but after watching this play out... I said to my partner, "just you watch the press twist this about so that the government brush it all under the carpet because they did all they can"

The fact is that there was never a choice between animals and people... even if the animals had been put down the space would not have been filled by people...all Pen's staff and animals got to the airport under their own steam but were turned away due to a paperwork issue that changed whilst the team were waiting... apparently that was done by POTUS but I don't have absolute proof of that.


Had they not been sent away Pen would not have needed a military escort, Pen's staff would be safe.... but even with visas and a job to go to they were not allowed to board the plane.

The British government went on their Jollies and started bickering instead of pulling their fingers out of their own backsides... and I am saddened to see people falling for it


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

rottieboys said:


> You got that wrong. The plane was NOT by the MOD. This plane was paid privately. Rachel Johnson was on LBC last night talking to Dominic Dyer , the spokesman for Pen Farthing. He said that the plane was paid by a beneficiary.


I thought the plane that was paid for privately was the one that should have picked him up on Thursday(?) When he got turned away from the airport so he ended up on an MOD flight?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

MilleD said:


> I thought the plane that was paid for privately was the one that should have picked him up on Thursday(?) When he got turned away from the airport so he ended up on an MOD flight?


No it was a chartered plane that Pen flew out on.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> No it was a chartered plane that Pen flew out on.


But he flew to a neighbouring country, not directly to the UK? So it wasn't the original plane from Luton I'm assuming?


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

MilleD said:


> But he flew to a neighbouring country, not directly to the UK? So it wasn't the original plane from Luton I'm assuming?


No, it wasnt.

The MOD have stated: 'On the direction of the defence secretary, clearance for their charter flight has been sponsored by the UK government'.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Unfortunately all media is biased these days. 
The truth is, we will never know what really happened and how it played out, but notice how much time and energy we're putting in to this animal rescue story while other humanitarian crisis stories are being totally ignored. No matter what the reason, no matter if it's true or not, the optics are not good and it does make the "degenerate" west look like we care more about booze and street dogs than human beings and that IS a problem. 
Pen Farthing is not the bad guy here, he's being used by the media - on both sides. And we're falling for it - on both sides.

The real issue is that we have been screwing over the people of Afghanistan since the 1970's when the USSR invaded and even before (thanks British Colonialism).

This is not a news source, but worth a watch. Note the dates. It has never been easy to get people out of Afghanistan but we haven't cared until now. Why should anyone believe that we care now after decades of this bullshit?


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> Unfortunately all media is biased these days.
> The truth is, we will never know what really happened and how it played out, but notice how much time and energy we're putting in to this animal rescue story while other humanitarian crisis stories are being totally ignored. No matter what the reason, no matter if it's true or not, the optics are not good and it does make the "degenerate" west look like we care more about booze and street dogs than human beings and that IS a problem.
> Pen Farthing is not the bad guy here, he's being used by the media - on both sides. And we're falling for it - on both sides.
> 
> ...


Well said.


----------



## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

MollySmith said:


> Nope it's not. The Spectator is owned by Andrew Neil who owns the Telegraph and GB News and has a bias. I always check who owns a paper and the level of accuracy in their reporting before I read a report. The Spectator is not an independent source.
> 
> If you read the link I posted, you'd understand that certain parts of the UK media have encouraged you and seemingly many others here to assume his 'pets' were sitting in seats enjoying snacks and drinks.
> 
> ...


I disagree with you about Andrew Neil and GB News, depending what side of the fence your on. I think Daily Mirror is bias as well as the BBC.. Now Good Morning Britain. I believe in both sides Well done Pen...


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

MilleD said:


> But he flew to a neighbouring country, not directly to the UK? So it wasn't the original plane from Luton I'm assuming?


The plane from Luton never left...there were safety concerns for the plane actually landing.
So a plane that was hangered closer to Afghanistan was used and that ONLY landed once Pen was in the airport and able to land so it didn't take up any space that it shouldn't, it was just waiting until it was needed.

Incidentally Nowzad had mentioned several times that they would fill the seats with other refugees in the airport...the plane left virtually empty because "It was not possible to find people to fill the seats"

I guess it is easier for our press and government to blame an Ex-marine that served his country than to take a long hard look at themselves.


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> The plane from Luton never left...there were safety concerns for the plane actually landing.
> So a plane that was hangered closer to Afghanistan was used and that ONLY landed once Pen was in the airport and able to land so it didn't take up any space that it shouldn't, it was just waiting until it was needed.
> 
> Incidentally Nowzad had mentioned several times that they would fill the seats with other refugees in the airport...the plane left virtually empty because "It was not possible to find people to fill the seats"
> ...


Of course they wanted to smear him. Last night on LBC. a fellow ex-marine who also served with him, said he was a great man and always kind to these dogs. Well done Pen.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

rottieboys said:


> I disagree with you about Andrew Neil and GB News, depending what side of the fence your on. I think Daily Mirror is bias as well as the BBC.. Now Good Morning Britain. I believe in both sides Well done Pen...


They all have bias, even those who claim not to. So agree but not disagree if that makes sense? It's incredibly hard to find something completely free, which makes me all the more alarmed about the power of the press. There is a fascinating but alarming documentary on the BBC (!) about the rise of the Murdoch family.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

StormyThai said:


> The plane from Luton never left...there were safety concerns for the plane actually landing.
> So a plane that was hangered closer to Afghanistan was used and that ONLY landed once Pen was in the airport and able to land so it didn't take up any space that it shouldn't, it was just waiting until it was needed.
> 
> Incidentally Nowzad had mentioned several times that they would fill the seats with other refugees in the airport...the plane left virtually empty because "It was not possible to find people to fill the seats"
> ...


Agree.

I fail to understand why so many people have failed to read that Pen Farthing offered the seats and the animals went in the hold. Yet seemed to read a whole bunch of other stuff. I'd add that it's a lot easier to blame a ex-marine than the government many voted for.

I'm done with this thread, incredibly disappointed to read some of the stuff on here.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

O2.0 said:


> Unfortunately all media is biased these days.
> The truth is, we will never know what really happened and how it played out, but notice how much time and energy we're putting in to this animal rescue story while other humanitarian crisis stories are being totally ignored. No matter what the reason, no matter if it's true or not, the optics are not good and it does make the "degenerate" west look like we care more about booze and street dogs than human beings and that IS a problem.
> Pen Farthing is not the bad guy here, he's being used by the media - on both sides. And we're falling for it - on both sides.
> 
> ...


This is his latest show which I saw last Friday night.


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

Magyarmum said:


> This is his latest show which I saw last Friday night.


Message says uploader has not made it available in England


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

MollySmith said:


> Agree.
> 
> I fail to understand why so many people have failed to read that Pen Farthing offered the seats and the animals went in the hold. Yet seemed to read a whole bunch of other stuff. I'd add that it's a lot easier to blame a ex-marine than the government many voted for.
> 
> I'm done with this thread, incredibly disappointed to read some of the stuff on here.


MollySmith , this is a discussion board. Your input is important to read, we might not all agree with each other but it is nice to hear what other people think.Come back to this thread.


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## daveos (May 14, 2017)

Lets all not fall out with each over, We all lucky to be able to discuss subjects like this a lot of forums do not allow political or current event discussions.
We need to not take offence at each other whether we agree or disagree.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> The plane from Luton never left...there were safety concerns for the plane actually landing.
> So a plane that was hangered closer to Afghanistan was used and that ONLY landed once Pen was in the airport and able to land so it didn't take up any space that it shouldn't, it was just waiting until it was needed.
> 
> Incidentally Nowzad had mentioned several times that they would fill the seats with other refugees in the airport...the plane left virtually empty because "It was not possible to find people to fill the seats"
> ...


So if the US changes hadn't kicked them back out of the airport, people could have used that flight. Double whammy mess up there.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

MollySmith said:


> you'd understand that certain parts of the UK media have encouraged you and seemingly many others here to assume his 'pets' were sitting in seats enjoying snacks and drinks.


How dare you presume that you know what I believe (encouraged or not)
I've followed this thread, closely, even though it seems to have become purely about Pens journey and troubles,
I'm not some stupid idiot that is led by the nose, via TV, newspapers, internet or, even, forums I'm actually mature enough to read, digest and come to my own conclusions re many situations
The spectator is not, nor has ever been, my media of choice ( nor any other newspapers come to that) I certainly could care less who owns, edits or supports it, I purely posted that link, which, allegedly, you haven't even read, to show the ridiculously biased reporting, that was out there, trying to rile the general public, by claiming that it was "animals before people"
I was actually supporting your POV, the "head banging against wall" emoji, universally recognised as being a sign of frustration, with the reporting within
But,
No,
You've decided that, because I dare link to a report, in something you don't agree with, I too must be a sheeple
This is always the danger, when commenting on something that you don't read

As for bias, we all have our own bias, bias is just another way of saying
" this is my pov" or " this is my opinion"
Some of us, however, are less blinkered, when others are sharing theirs, and, don't presume that our pov/ opinion is the only right and true one.

@rottieboys 


> You got that wrong. The plane was NOT by the MOD. This plane was paid privately. Rachel Johnson was on LBC last night talking to Dominic Dyer , the spokesman for Pen Farthing. He said that the plane was paid by a beneficiary


I didn't mention the MOD, the link may have, I didnt

I'm now out of this thread, as discussion has turned into despotism.

Edit due to quoting wrong person


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> How dare you presume that you know what I believe (encouraged or not)
> I've followed this thread, closely, even though it seems to have become purely about Pens journey and troubles,
> I'm not some stupid idiot that is led by the nose, via TV, newspapers, internet or, even, forums I'm actually mature enough to read, digest and come to my own conclusions re many situations
> The spectator is not, nor has ever been, my media of choice ( nor any other newspapers come to that) I certainly could care less who owns, edits or supports it, I purely posted that link, which, allegedly, you haven't even read, to show the ridiculously biased reporting, that was out there, trying to rile the general public, by claiming that it was "animals before people"
> ...


Very well said

Been a very interesting insight into human nature this thread


----------



## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

@rottieboys 

I didn't mention the MOD, the link may have, I didnt

I'm now out of this thread, as discussion has turned into despotism.

Edit due to quoting wrong person[/QUOTE]


----------



## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

I never mention you said this. Wrong person.


----------



## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

mrs phas said:


> How dare you presume that you know what I believe (encouraged or not)
> I've followed this thread, closely, even though it seems to have become purely about Pens journey and troubles,
> I'm not some stupid idiot that is led by the nose, via TV, newspapers, internet or, even, forums I'm actually mature enough to read, digest and come to my own conclusions re many situations
> The spectator is not, nor has ever been, my media of choice ( nor any other newspapers come to that) I certainly could care less who owns, edits or supports it, I purely posted that link, which, allegedly, you haven't even read, to show the ridiculously biased reporting, that was out there, trying to rile the general public, by claiming that it was "animals before people"
> ...


Sorry, but I never mention you said this. Wrong person.


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

rona said:


> Very well said
> 
> Been a very interesting insight into human nature this thread


Isn't it? I understood from the heading this thread was about Afghanistan.. Apparently not. :Banghead

It appears this thread is now all about Pen Farthing and his dogs despite there being two other threads on the subject. Any attempt to get back to the original topic appears to be unwelcome which IMO is very shortsighted because there are so many other aspects more important that warrant discussion.

Now scuttles down to her bomb proof bunker.


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

I was rather supportive of withdrawing American soldiers and such from Afghanistan but seeing it play out in practice, I've definitely changed my mind, especially with way the withdrawal was conducted and with the Taliban back into power. In all likelihood, another 9/11 type terrorist attack will drag the USA and other countries back into Afghanistan. The Taliban has already freed people related to the 9/11 attacks. I'm already seeing noise about other countries supporting the resistance, possibly in major ways.

The original reason for the invasion of Afghanistan was counterterrorism but in many ways, it has also become a peacekeeping mission over the past twenty years. I did not really pay much attention to or even know much about Afghanistan prior to the withdrawal. It's amazing how little one can pay attention to stuff going on in the world. Apparently the culture of Afghanistan is very tribal and I've seen people suggest splitting the country into many countries amongst the many tribes and such with some sort of peace deal. The Taliban is just one element of many in Afghanistan.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

.


----------



## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

I really wish the US military would stop using drone strikes or at the very least, use drone strikes sparingly. Innocent people end up being killed and I did read about it possibly increasing support for the Taliban and other terrorist groups. I think it sets a bad precedent too. What if some military decided to do a drone strike in your neighborhood to get this one dude that was possibly a threat and killed a bunch of your neighbors or friends or family members that weren't involved with anything nefarious? You'd probably be upset and angry.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Didn't the Americans blow up a load of kids today?


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

rottieboys said:


> Sorry, but I never mention you said this. Wrong person.


Page 19 post#363 
You quoted me then made your comment, if you meant you quoted the wrong person, then I accept you were wrong, we all make mistakes after all
Only the piece under your name was in reference to you 
The rest was, quite obviously in reply to the person, I originally, quoted 
Much easier to reply to both of you than post twice in succession, which is often viewed as rude


----------



## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

DogLover1981 said:


> I was rather supportive of withdrawing American soldiers and such from Afghanistan but seeing it play out in practice, I've definitely changed my mind, especially with way the withdrawal was conducted and with the Taliban back into power. In all likelihood, another 9/11 type terrorist attack will drag the USA and other countries back into Afghanistan. The Taliban has already freed people related to the 9/11 attacks. I'm already seeing noise about other countries supporting the resistance, possibly in major ways.
> 
> The original reason for the invasion of Afghanistan was counterterrorism but in many ways, it has also become a peacekeeping mission over the past twenty years. I did not really pay much attention to or even know much about Afghanistan prior to the withdrawal. It's amazing how little one can pay attention to stuff going on in the world. Apparently the culture of Afghanistan is very tribal and I've seen people suggest splitting the country into many countries amongst the many tribes and such with some sort of peace deal. The Taliban is just one element of many in Afghanistan.


I also didn't know about the dynamics between Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and China. It has almost been a proxy war at times with all the poor people living in Afghanistan being stuck in the middle of it.


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

rona said:


> Didn't the Americans blow up a load of kids today?


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-58380791.


----------



## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Magyarmum said:


> Isn't it? I understood from the heading this thread was about Afghanistan.. Apparently not. :Banghead
> 
> It appears this thread is now all about Pen Farthing and his dogs despite there being two other threads on the subject. Any attempt to get back to the original topic appears to be unwelcome which IMO is very shortsighted because there are so many other aspects more important that warrant discussion.
> 
> Now scuttles down to her bomb proof bunker.


I think that's my fault - huge apologies.
In my ignorance I didn't realise Nowzad related to Penn Farthing until after I posted here. Went with his Afghanistan connection. As soon as I realised I used the relevant thread albeit too late


----------



## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> f you read the link I posted, you'd understand that certain parts of the UK media have encouraged you and seemingly many others here to assume his 'pets' were sitting in seats enjoying snacks and drinks.


Do you really believe that anyone here really thought that?

Please don't assume that you're the only person here with a modicum of intelligence.

Some may hold a different view to you, that doesn't make them idiots.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

DogLover1981 said:


> I was rather supportive of withdrawing American soldiers and such from Afghanistan but seeing it play out in practice, I've definitely changed my mind, especially with way the withdrawal was conducted and with the Taliban back into power. In all likelihood, another 9/11 type terrorist attack will drag the USA and other countries back into Afghanistan. The Taliban has already freed people related to the 9/11 attacks. I'm already seeing noise about other countries supporting the resistance, possibly in major ways.
> 
> The original reason for the invasion of Afghanistan was counterterrorism but in many ways, it has also become a peacekeeping mission over the past twenty years. I did not really pay much attention to or even know much about Afghanistan prior to the withdrawal. It's amazing how little one can pay attention to stuff going on in the world. Apparently the culture of Afghanistan is very tribal and I've seen people suggest splitting the country into many countries amongst the many tribes and such with some sort of peace deal. The Taliban is just one element of many in Afghanistan.


Its a difficult situation. I understand the US and UK wanting to withdraw, so many soldiers killed or injured but like you said , seeing it play out. 

I've always felt that the invasion was also to do with showing the world they wouldnt tolerate any attacks on America and to show a strong hand.


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

mrs phas said:


> Page 19 post#363
> You quoted me then made your comment, if you meant you quoted the wrong person, then I accept you were wrong, we all make mistakes after all
> Only the piece under your name was in reference to you
> The rest was, quite obviously in reply to the person, I originally, quoted
> Much easier to reply to both of you than post twice in succession, which is often viewed as rude


Sorry, if you go back to page 19. It was Nonnie who


mrs phas said:


> Page 19 post#363
> You quoted me then made your comment, if you meant you quoted the wrong person, then I accept you were wrong, we all make mistakes after all
> Only the piece under your name was in reference to you
> The rest was, quite obviously in reply to the person, I originally, quoted
> Much easier to reply to both of you than post twice in succession, which is often viewed as rude


Sorry, But if you go back to Page 19 I was referring to Nonnie who said the plane was funded by MOD, which it wasn't.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> I'm done with this thread, incredibly disappointed to read some of the stuff on here.





mrs phas said:


> I'm now out of this thread, as discussion has turned into despotism.


Crikey: there will be no-one left if this goes on.

@rona: Yes, I think about five died - poor innocent souls just snuffed out in a flash. Terrible


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Any news about what's happening inside the country now?


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

rona said:


> Any news about what's happening inside the country now?


From what I've seen today the Taliban are celebrating their win and vowing to return Afghanistan to how it used to be  our terror alert has raised. How can we just walk away ?


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

One thing I'm reading about is that at least some people in Afghanistan (and some that have now fled) is that they are upset that they had absolutely no say in how all this has transpired. I wish that the Biden Administration had instituted elections in Afghanistan to form a new government without American support and elections to determine their future relationship with the USA such as whether to make Afghanistan a permanent American territory with a large degree of local control for each tribe and region or merely to have American military bases with full local control. The USA has been there for almost 20 years with that occupation leading to various cultural changes over the years and a certain degree of freedom in daily life. Suddenly, that has all been taken away from them and they are basically being abandoned to the Taliban.

I really hope for a better future for everyone in Afghanistan.


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

On a personal note, the situation in Afghanistan has definitely highlighted the importance of democracy to me.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

DogLover1981 said:


> One thing I'm reading about is that at least some people in Afghanistan (and some that have now fled) is that they are upset that they had absolutely no say in how all this has transpired. *I wish that the Biden Administration had instituted elections in Afghanistan* to form a new government without American support and elections to determine their future relationship with the USA such as whether to make Afghanistan a permanent American territory with a large degree of local control for each tribe and region or merely to have American military bases with full local control. The USA has been there for almost 20 years with that occupation leading to various cultural changes over the years and a certain degree of freedom in daily life. Suddenly, that has all been taken away from them and they are basically being abandoned to the Taliban.
> 
> I really hope for a better future for everyone in Afghanistan.


I don't think he could. Everyone is lashing out at Biden, but the withdrawal deal was signed up to by Trump back in February 2020, and the original date for withdrawal was May 2021. Biden's administration got that extended to September, but a delay was the best to be hoped for.

The rest was supposed to be negotiation between the Taliban and the Afghan govenment, uninterfered with by the West. It really shouldn't have surprised anyone that the Taliban prefer shotgun diplomacy (which is not only permissible but the preferred option under their brand of islam), or that large parts of the Afghan army had no inclination to die defending a government which has had turned a blind eye whilst their resources and pay have been continually stolen by corrupt officials, especially when it is clear the Taliban will be in charge and opposing them will be considered a traitor.


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

Jesthar said:


> I don't think he could. Everyone is lashing out at Biden, but the withdrawal deal was signed up to by Trump back in February 2020, and the original date for withdrawal was May 2021. Biden's administration got that extended to September, but a delay was the best to be hoped for.
> 
> The rest was supposed to be negotiation between the Taliban and the Afghan govenment, uninterfered with by the West. It really shouldn't have surprised anyone that the Taliban prefer shotgun diplomacy (which is not only permissible but the preferred option under their brand of islam), or that large parts of the Afghan army had no inclination to die defending a government which has had turned a blind eye whilst their resources and pay have been continually stolen by corrupt officials, especially when it is clear the Taliban will be in charge and opposing them will be considered a traitor.


What's crazy about all this is that it's very possible that the USA and other countries will be dragged back into Afghanistan at some point because of new terrorist attacks. Another problem is that the world is much more interconnected now due to the internet and there are already signs of terrorist groups under the Taliban which could encourage "lone wolves" in other parts of the world. The internet wasn't what it is now when the Taliban was last in control.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

I'd be interested to hear what people think is the answer there?


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

DogLover1981 said:


> certain degree of freedom in daily life.


I said that word last night. lol I do think people should, to a certain extent, be free do what they want in their personal lives but freedom is, in many ways, an illusion as practically everything we do in life has an impact on others. A messy topic there.


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

MilleD said:


> I'd be interested to hear what people think is the answer there?


I don't think there is any great or best solution to the problems in Afghanistan. It's a quagmire for sure. I've seen people suggest that their country should stay out of it or ignore the problem but the problem with that is that no country or borders live in a bubble. What happens in one part of the world can affect other parts of this very interconnected world. The refugee crisis is causing problems across the planet for one of many examples and climate change is another clear example of it.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

DogLover1981 said:


> I don't think there is any great or best solution to the problems in Afghanistan. It's a quagmire for sure. I've seen people suggest that their country should stay out of it or ignore the problem but the problem with that is that no country or borders live in a bubble. What happens in one part of the world can affect other parts of this very interconnected world. The refugee crisis is causing problems across the planet for one of many examples and climate change is another clear example of it.


Trouble is even after 20 years, the economy there is so bad, foreign aid makes up 40% of t GDP. And the sale of illegal drugs is rife. As is corruption.

The question has to be asked whether the majority of Afghans are are ok with the new regime. They really don't seem to have embraced any change.

Obviously that's just looking in from the outside.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

oldeecatowner said:


> Rep. Madison Cawthorn wants Kamala Harris to invoke the 25th Amendment I heard on the news this morning saying Biden is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office.


I'm fairly sure I recall that The Donald was forced by the Democrats into taking a ''cognitive ability test'' about halfway through his term of office in case he was as bonkers as he seemed to be; he passed it.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Calvine said:


> I'm fairly sure I recall that The Donald was forced by the Democrats into taking a ''cognitive ability test'' about halfway through his term of office in case he was as bonkers as he seemed to be; he passed it.


That was a Montreal Cognitive Assessment test if memory serves, designed to test for dementia or other congitive defects. It is, indeed, very hard - providing your definition of 'very hard' includes naming animals from drawings of them, repeating back short sentances, and knowing what year and city you are currently in...


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Jesthar said:


> That was a Montreal Cognitive Assessment test if memory serves, designed to test for dementia or other congitive defects. It is, indeed, very hard - providing your definition of 'very hard' includes naming animals from drawings of them, repeating back short sentances, and knowing what year and city you are currently in...


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Biden says he hasn't taken a cognitive test: "Why the hell would I take a test?" - CBS News


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Calvine said:


> Biden says he hasn't taken a cognitive test: "Why the hell would I take a test?" - CBS News


I like to imagine that when he quotes the doctors as saying "That's amazing, how did you do that?" regarding the memory part of the test, it's because they didn't expect him to remember his own name...


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Jesthar said:


> I like to imagine that when he quotes the doctors as saying "That's amazing, how did you do that?" regarding the memory part of the test, it's because they didn't expect him to remember his own name...


Haha, yes indeed. I don't believe all I read; but one that made me laugh was that after being delivered by helicopter practically to his own front door, he managed to wander off into the bushes and had to be ''rescued'' by his security men.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

For those who haven't seen it - Nowzad staff who were not allowed to leave on the plane now with the British High Commission in Pakistan
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...er-aghan-staff-left-behind-escape-to-pakistan


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

It seems Biden was warned that the Afghan Military would collapse but he denies this . 

"Top generals told lawmakers under oath on Tuesday that they advised President Joe Biden early this year to keep several thousand troops in Afghanistan - directly contradicting the president's comments in August that no one warned him not to withdraw troops from the country."

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/09/28/top-generals-afghanistan-withdrawal-congress-hearing-514491


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

A tweet from Pen farthing 
Those who have continually pushed 'pets over people' narrative for the last 6 months (almost pushed me to breaking point), pse read letter from Lord Tariq Ahmed to the Foreign Affairs committee;

Correspondence with Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon following up on FAC evidence session on 25 January relating to Afghanistan (parliament.uk)


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