# training... cruel?



## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

Some people my mother knows have a 15 month old working line german shepherd. At 9 months she was wildly out of control, and the couple both worked full time. They have recently engaged a trainer who, when they first took her there, said 'I'm going to take your dog for half an hour. She will be sick. You can watch or you don't have to.' This was apparently a well known trainer who works mainly with German shepherds. They have been working with the trainer for around 6 months. The dog is now apparently much nicer and much better to live with. Before this the couple were having rows and there was talk of having the dog PTS.

What do you think?


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2016)

KatieandOliver said:


> Some people my mother knows have a 15 month old working line german shepherd. At 9 months she was wildly out of control, and the couple both worked full time. They have recently engaged a trainer who, when they first took her there, said 'I'm going to take your dog for half an hour. She will be sick. You can watch or you don't have to.' This was apparently a well known trainer who works mainly with German shepherds. They have been working with the trainer for around 6 months. The dog is now apparently much nicer and much better to live with. Before this the couple were having rows and there was talk of having the dog PTS.
> 
> What do you think?


Like sick as in vomiting? Why?


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## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Like sick as in vomiting? Why?


Due to wearing a slip collar I think.


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## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

She was sick; they also now use a milk bottle with stones and hit her with it, or hit something near her with it.


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2016)

Can’s see any reason why a dog would vomit from training.

That said, I’m not going to judge based on a third hand account  

Me personally, I would not hand the leash over to a trainer unless we had a good relationship and I have an excellent idea of what to expect.
I’m the one taking that dog home, so I’m the one who should be learning how to handle him. 

That said, there are times when it is appropriate for the trainer to take the dog and work with the dog, there are times when the trainer should take the owner and work with the owner sans dog. It all just depends. 

And sometimes trainers say one thing and owners hear something entirely different. I’ve personally witnessed that many times. 

As for rattle cans, meh, not my cup of tea. 
I mean, I would use a rattle can, but I’d use it as a toy because both my dogs would find something that makes a lot of noise and makes the cats run the height of entertainment. Also because I like for my dogs to be totally comfortable with surprising and startling noises. 
Using a rattle can to correct a dog is IMO not the best approach. The last thing I want from a family dog with lives in a loud, busy household is for them to think a startling noise is something to be worried about. 

I don’t know about in the UK, but in the US the initial test for therapy dogs includes gaging their reaction to something like a dropped metal bedpan or metal crutches etc. A dog who thinks they’re being corrected when they hear a sharp noise isn’t going to make the cut.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

KatieandOliver said:


> Some people my mother knows have a 15 month old working line german shepherd. At 9 months she was wildly out of control, and the couple both worked full time. They have recently engaged a trainer who, when they first took her there, said 'I'm going to take your dog for half an hour. She will be sick. You can watch or you don't have to.' This was apparently a well known trainer who works mainly with German shepherds. They have been working with the trainer for around 6 months. The dog is now apparently much nicer and much better to live with. Before this the couple were having rows and there was talk of having the dog PTS.
> 
> What do you think?


I think that anyone who hands their dog over to a person who tells them they are going to vomit should not own a dog.

Unfortunately many people find themselves "overdogged" because they either fail to seek advice or refuse to take it when it is offered. Then they find themselves in a predicament where they have no control over a dog bred to work and then go to someone who may not have the welfare of the dog as their main concern and is not interested in the relationship between dog and owner.

the use of a rattle can is largely pointless in a fearless dog bred to fight as in IPO.

There are kinder ways to effect change.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

What was the dog doing that was so wildly out of control that they considered putting the dog down at 9 months of age? Or were they as said by smokeybear just totally out of their depth owning a dog that was entirely unsuitable for them? 

And the "trainer" sounds like another quick fit franchised idiot. You don't magically cure a dog of all its 'problems' in half an hour, you use some sort of adversive tool to shut the dog down and mask all the 'problems'.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

KatieandOliver said:


> They have recently engaged a trainer who, when they first took her there, said 'I'm going to take your dog for half an hour. She will be sick. You can watch or you don't have to.'


And they let him take the dog 

That would normally suggest to me that a trainer is going to use asphyxiation (Cesar does it.)

J


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Poor dog


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Wtf? just wtf? poor dog 
I'm quite traumatised by what @Jamesgoeswalkies said tbh. This goes on????? :Sorry


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

They haven't triained the dog, they have forced it to submit through fear/pain from the sounds of it


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## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

They were very out of their depth. And didn't have enough time to spend with her. She was very noisy constantly, jumping, mouthing, hyper.... I just think she wasn't the right dog for them.


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## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> And they let him take the dog
> 
> That would normally suggest to me that a trainer is going to use asphyxiation (Cesar does it.)
> 
> J


It was a female trainer, and I suspect you're right. The lady half of the couple was in tears the whole time.


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> I think that anyone who hands their dog over to a person who tells them they are going to vomit should not own a dog.


And yet the Milgram Effect is very real and desperate owners are convinced all the time to either do cruel things to their dogs or allow them to be done 



KatieandOliver said:


> She was very noisy constantly, jumping, mouthing, hyper....


Wow they were considering PTS because of those behaviors?

*sigh*


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2016)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> That would normally suggest to me that a trainer is going to use asphyxiation (Cesar does it.)


Yup, and supposed dog lovers (even posters on here) defend him and say either it was warranted, or he wasn't really asphyxiating the dog.

If people refuse to see the cruelty of CM, I don't expect it to be any different with your local CM wannabe.

Personally I'd love to see some sort of regulation in dog training so that this kind of trainer could be reported and not be allowed to call themselves trainers or behaviorists or dog professionals of any sort. 
Not to mention can you even class asphyxiation as training?


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> And they let him take the dog
> 
> That would normally suggest to me that a trainer is going to use asphyxiation (Cesar does it.)
> 
> J


 I have a serious dislike of C.M. but I would never of thought he'd do something so horrific! I'm disgusted. 
I'm surprised any 'trainer' who uses such methods doesn't end up being charged for cruelty.


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## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Yup, and supposed dog lovers (even posters on here) defend him and say either it was warranted, or he wasn't really asphyxiating the dog.
> 
> If people refuse to see the cruelty of CM, I don't expect it to be any different with your local CM wannabe.
> 
> ...


The excuse was that the dog was doing it to herself; if she behaved, she wouldn't tighten the slip. But she probably didn't even know what she was supposed to be doing.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

KatieandOliver said:


> The excuse was that the dog was doing it to herself; if she behaved, she wouldn't tighten the slip. But she probably didn't even know what she was supposed to be doing.


Exactly, imagine how scared and confused she must have been. "But, I don;t know what you want from me???" sp she does nothing, shuts down. So upsetting


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

what kind of twonk owner hands their dog over to a stranger? especially one that upfront told them they were going to make the dog vomit
tbh they're lucky it was brought back, traumatised or not

As for the use of a slip lead and rattle box on a permanent basis, it would make me :Vomit too :Banghead

I only carry a slip in my car [when i have one] and in my walking bag, just in case i come across a loose dog


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

If I was told by a trainer that they would make my dog vomit.. then they wouldn't get my dog.. and I'd also report them.

Poor, poor dog  Get sick of hearing about stories of crappy idiotic trainers AND stupid owners who buy a dog and haven't a clue !

Would you leave a baby with a childminder if they said they'd make the child vomit ? I doubt it.


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

Animallover26 said:


> I have a serious dislike of C.M. but I would never of thought he'd do something so horrific! I'm disgusted.
> I'm surprised any 'trainer' who uses such methods doesn't end up being charged for cruelty.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Poor, poor, dog. Let down by everyone around them by the sounds of it 

If the trainer belongs to any professional accredited training organization I'd be reporting him to all & sundry! but I highly doubt he does.


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## oethanowen (Jun 21, 2016)

get well


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

This thread has made me so sad, and also the video of Shadow as well, poor confused little guy


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

That video has made me actually have to run to loo and vomit
and i have dealt with some horrific things in my life


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

mrs phas said:


> That video has made me actually have to run to loo and vomit
> and i have dealt with some horrific things in my life


I'm not even going to watch it but I think it should be posted everytime one of his defenders (and we seem to have a few at the moment) claims his methods work and are not cruel.


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

I'm not going to watch the video, but I hope that for anyone who agrees with what C.M. does will think twice if it shows what I fear it shows.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Luckily videos are blocked as I'm at work. But I hope it does as Al said yes. This 'trainer' really does need reporting.


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## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

I am just in disbelief that it is allowed! And that people think it is ok. The owners said they had made a commitment to the dog and would not give her up and did not really want to PTS, but they certainly haven't don't right by her. It would have been better to admit they had been out dogged and give her back to the breeder than this


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

KatieandOliver said:


> They were very out of their depth. And didn't have enough time to spend with her. She was very noisy constantly, jumping, mouthing, hyper.... I just think she wasn't the right dog for them.


I very much doubt that any dog would be the right dog for them.


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## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

Sweety said:


> I very much doubt that any dog would be the right dog for them.


No, perhaps you're right. They did have 2 Labradors, still have one but the other sadly got very poorly and had to be PTS. The one they have now is rather old and was a bit shell shocked by the new dog.


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2016)

KatieandOliver said:


> The excuse was that the dog was doing it to herself; if she behaved, she wouldn't tighten the slip. But she probably didn't even know what she was supposed to be doing.


And this is exactly how these trainers get away with what they do.
Smoke screens and slick talking makes it sound like what they're doing is okay, or at least understandable.
For a dog owner who's already feeling completely overwhelmed, an expert coming along with some confident talking can persuade them to do just about anything. I'm sure there was a "it doesn't really hurt her" in there too....



Muttly said:


> Exactly, imagine how scared and confused she must have been. "But, I don;t know what you want from me???" sp she does nothing, shuts down. So upsetting


Confused and frustrated, probably. Scared? Maybe, maybe not. Some of those high drive dogs don't have much of a sense of self preservation and not much scares or worries them. 
Many of these dogs have a long history of being bred to be able to take harsh handling in stride. 
Not that it excuses the harsh handling, I just think it's important to be factual. Because anyone arguing for harsh handling could quickly jump in and say that their dog doesn't find harsh handling frightening nor does it cause them to shut down, and they'd be correct.



rottiepointerhouse said:


> I'm not even going to watch it but I think it should be posted everytime one of his defenders (and we seem to have a few at the moment) claims his methods work and are not cruel.


It has been posted many times, and people will watch it and still defend what he is doing here.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

I can see how easy it would be to fall into that trap of trusting a "professional" dog trainer if you don't know any better. Especially when the same horrific methods they're using are being shown on tv as if they're completely normal and widely acceptable.

What really horrifies me though is when someone DOES know better.. and still defends CM :Banghead Or when they have been shown proof that kinder methods are more effective.. and still defend him :Banghead Or how they can watch a video of a dog being goaded into reacting, then being strangled to the point that it's gasping for breath and pissing where it's lying.. and yet STILL defend him :Banghead

There is no excuse for their ignorance IMO


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Nettles said:


> I can see how easy it would be to fall into that trap of trusting a "professional" dog trainer if you don't know any better. *Especially when the same horrific methods they're using are being shown on tv as if they're completely normal and widely acceptable*.
> 
> What really horrifies me though is when someone DOES know better.. and still defends CM :Banghead Or when they have been shown proof that kinder methods are more effective.. and still defend him :Banghead Or how they can watch a video of a dog being goaded into reacting, then being strangled to the point that it's gasping for breath and pissing where it's lying.. and yet STILL defend him :Banghead
> 
> There is no excuse for their ignorance IMO


This is the very worrying part. Any novice dog owner will probably come across this type of stuff on google or CM on telly and think it's the right way


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

KatieandOliver said:


> They were very out of their depth. And didn't have enough time to spend with her. She was very noisy constantly, jumping, mouthing, hyper.... I just think she wasn't the right dog for them.


So behaving like a normal young dog then. Noisy.......it's a GSD....what did they expect?! sounds as though the dog would have been far better off being rehomed.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Muttly said:


> This is the very worrying part. Any novice dog owner will probably come across this type of stuff on google or CM on telly and think it's the right way


I know I did. When the behaviourist came around when I first got Dex, he asked why I insisted on Dex sitting whilst I went in the house first. Then he explained what a load of bull all that thinking was, and it all made so much sense. Thankfully I hadn't tried any of the nasty stuff, just the silly things


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Nettles said:


> Or how they can watch a video of a dog being goaded into reacting, then being strangled to the point that it's gasping for breath and pissing where it's lying..


Because they justify it by believing that you have to set a dog up to fail before you can punish the behaviour...it's the same with kids unfortunately (not to the point of asphyxiation but the setting up to fail)...and nothing will convince them otherwise


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> I know I did. When the behaviourist came around when I first got Dex, he asked why I insisted on Dex sitting whilst I went in the house first. Then he explained what a load of bull all that thinking was, and it all made so much sense. Thankfully I hadn't tried any of the nasty stuff, just the silly things


After seeing the video where you're supposed to always leave and enter the house before your dogs, I thought I try it. I only have the one entrance/exit to my house and have an inner door and an outer door with a space if 12 inches in between. No matter what I tried I couldn't fathom a way to get out of the house first without risking concussion to either the dogs or me! In the end I gave up and went back to my old way of letting the dogs go out of the inner door first, then reaching over them to push the outer one open!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> Because they justify it by believing that you have to set a dog up to fail before you can punish the behaviour...it's the same with kids unfortunately (not to the point of asphyxiation but the setting up to fail)...and nothing will convince them otherwise


Yup, just this week I've been appalled by people setting up kids my sons age (13 months) so they can punish them for "stealing and purposely breaking things". Smacking hands and legs, time outs etc. They're babies ffs! It makes me incredibly sad whether it's a dog or child being set up to be punished for something they don't know is the wrong behaviour  Nor are they taught the right behaviour in many cases, they're just left to guess!


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Sarah1983 said:


> Yup, just this week I've been appalled by people setting up kids my sons age (13 months) so they can punish them for "stealing and purposely breaking things". Smacking hands and legs, time outs etc. They're babies ffs! It makes me incredibly sad whether it's a dog or child being set up to be punished for something they don't know is the wrong behaviour  Nor are they taught the right behaviour in many cases, they're just left to guess!


That's the thing, you absolutely cannot get upset with anyone / thing doing something wrong when you have been too lazy to teach them what the right thing is that you want. It's like punishing someone for washing the plates before the glasses, but you don't actually bother telling them that this is the order you like, you just prefer to scream at them / hit them until they maybe get it right by mistake.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> I know I did. When the behaviourist came around when I first got Dex, he asked why I insisted on Dex sitting whilst I went in the house first. Then he explained what a load of bull all that thinking was, and it all made so much sense. Thankfully I hadn't tried any of the nasty stuff, just the silly things


From a "dominance" point of view it is rubbish but I think it is a very useful exercise in impulse control to teach your dog to sit or wait for you to go through doors etc. first.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

MiffyMoo said:


> When the behaviourist came around when I first got Dex, he asked why I insisted on Dex sitting whilst I went in the house first.


It's part of the KC Good Citizen thing - so is it good or bad?
_Exercise 4 - Control at Door/Gate The object of this exercise is for a handler and dog to walk through a gate/doorway under control and on a lead. The dog should not pull or be pulled through the gate/doorway. When this exercise commences the dog can be in any position and should wait while the handler opens the gate/door and then proceeds to go through. The handler should then recall the dog through the gate/ doorway. While the handler secures the gate, the dog should remain settled._


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Dimwit said:


> From a "dominance" point of view it is rubbish but I think it is a very useful exercise in impulse control to teach your dog to sit or wait for you to go through doors etc. first.


That is very true. I got sick of being knocked flying by excited bodies, so now they can just do what they like when it comes to charging out of the door. Obviously, if my front door opened onto the street then it would be a whole different story. Terrible training tips from me there, but I do do other impulse control exercises.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

havoc said:


> It's part of the KC Good Citizen thing - so is it good or bad?
> _Exercise 4 - Control at Door/Gate The object of this exercise is for a handler and dog to walk through a gate/doorway under control and on a lead. The dog should not pull or be pulled through the gate/doorway. When this exercise commences the dog can be in any position and should wait while the handler opens the gate/door and then proceeds to go through. The handler should then recall the dog through the gate/ doorway. While the handler secures the gate, the dog should remain settled._


My reasoning was wrong though. I suspect telling him that I do it because Cesar said it's so he knows his place, the guy possibly wanted to knock me on the head


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

havoc said:


> It's part of the KC Good Citizen thing - so is it good or bad?
> _Exercise 4 - Control at Door/Gate The object of this exercise is for a handler and dog to walk through a gate/doorway under control and on a lead. The dog should not pull or be pulled through the gate/doorway. When this exercise commences the dog can be in any position and should wait while the handler opens the gate/door and then proceeds to go through. The handler should then recall the dog through the gate/ doorway. While the handler secures the gate, the dog should remain settled._


Both mine will wait for me to open the gate and the same when I'm closing it. And I always enter and leave the garden first. It's only the front doors where for purely practical reasons they are allowed to go in front of me. Does that make me the owner of two badly behaved dogs .... I think not!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Magyarmum said:


> Does that make me the owner of two badly behaved dogs .... I think not!


Not if that's what works for you. When we're going out my lad sits at the first barrier for me to put his lead on - sometimes it's the back door and sometimes it's the garden gate. It (the discussion) does though speak volumes to me about how conflicting advice must be very confusing to a new puppy owner trying to get it right.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Nothing at all wrong with teaching a dog to sit and wait while you go through a door, gate, narrow gap etc first. I did it with Rupert for safety reasons, didn't want to open the door, him go out and come face to face with a dog! It's a default behaviour at our front door when we're going out, I don't ask for it, I just expect Spen to sit and wait until I tell him to go through it. Safety reasons and convenience, nothing to do with dominance.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> Because they justify it by believing that you have to set a dog up to fail before you can punish the behaviour...it's the same with kids unfortunately (not to the point of asphyxiation but the setting up to fail)...and nothing will convince them otherwise


I think it was @Pappychi who said a few days ago, she was taught not to put her hand in the fire, but nobody needed to shove her hand in the fire to teach her. I quite liked that!


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Nettles said:


> I think it was @Pappychi who said a few days ago, she was taught not to put her hand in the fire, but nobody needed to shove her hand in the fire to teach her. I quite liked that!


I like that too 
I was taught by someone sitting me by the fire holding my hand close until it felt too hot, and then yelled at if I still sat close to the fire ..It didn't teach me not to go near the fire, in fact fire fascinates me and I'll sit as close as possible to watch the flames flicker.
unfortunately we will always have a part of human society that needs to dominate another


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> I like that too
> I was taught by someone sitting me by the fire holding my hand close until it felt too hot, and then yelled at if I still sat close to the fire ..It didn't teach me not to go near the fire, in fact fire fascinates me and I'll sit as close as possible to watch the flames flicker.
> unfortunately we will always have a part of human society that needs to dominate another


Sounds like fire safety by CM 

I completely agree with your last sentence. No logical thinking human being can possibly believe you need a wrong to be able to teach a right. It's just a slightly more justifiable way of saying "I prefer to abuse my dog into submission"


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

_Due to wearing a slip collar I think_.

I have read most of this post & I cannot see how using a slip collar makes a dog sick, choke maybe but sick??


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Legshand said:


> I have read most of this post & I cannot see how using a slip collar makes a dog sick, choke maybe but sick??


Using a slip collar correctly on a dog who is relaxed and loose on the lead causes no discomfort at all. Many people can use them in this way.

However any piece of equipment when placed around the dogs neck in such a way that it will tighten on pressure has the potential to constrict the windpipe (trachea) which will cause the dog to struggle to breath (gasp for breath/choke) and asphyxiate (watch Cesars dog on the ground) and as a result the dog may be sick as they come round. The discussion on this thread was simply that this may have been the method used by the trainer in this instance.

J


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

It will not let me post my reply here, says i must contact admin as my post might be spam but I cant see any facility to contact admin, my post was not spam or anything like spam.


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

So if this all happened with a trainer here, who has remained anonymous, why is everyone talking about a behaviourist thousands of land miles & one ocean away who does not even practice here in UK


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Legshand said:


> So if this all happened with a trainer here, who has remained anonymous, why is everyone talking about a behaviourist thousands of land miles & one ocean away who does not even practice here in UK


I'm not sure what point you're trying to make! If however, the "behaviourist" you're referring to is a certain "gentleman" who lives in the States his TV programmes have been widely seen by dog owners all over the world. I live in Hungary and saw most of them some 7/8 years ago He has also been to the UK, Hungary, Germany demonstrating his "techniques" and his books and DVD's are easy to purchase online from anywhere in the world. The fact that he doesn't "practice" in the UK makes no difference to those dog owners who don't know any better!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Legshand said:


> So if this all happened with a trainer here, who has remained anonymous, why is everyone talking about a behaviourist thousands of land miles & one ocean away who does not even practice here in UK


Because it is s type of shorthand to communicate an idea quickly.

For example, if I say I practise yoga, someone might ask me what style? Ashtanga, Hatha, Bikram etc.

If I am a yoga enthusiast I will be able to see immediately when I want to join a class if that style suits me or is one that I am familiar with.

The same is true for Karate, schooling etc etc

If someone says they are from the CM school of dog training and another from the Jan Fennell school those who are familiar with both will be able to recognise which, if any, might suit them (or not).

They have different approaches, Jan Fennell promoties Amichien, CM promotes pinch collars etc.


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

Ta, so in that case why are peeps on this UK site not using DR he is after all our home grown, well known, make 'em sick if needs be advocate


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Legshand said:


> why are peeps on this UK site not using DR he is after all our home grown,


Who is DR please?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Legshand said:


> Ta, so in that case why are peeps on this UK site not using DR he is after all our home grown, well known, make 'em sick if needs be advocate


There are lots of people on this UK site who go to many different trainers some of whom may well have the initials DR and many of whom will not.

There are many advocates of making dogs sick, many of whom possess neither initial.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Legshand said:


> David Ryan behaviourist, member of APBC & Animal Training & Behaviour Council.


I am not sure where you got this idea from but David is about as far from your erroneous description as it is possible to be and, as a respected, reputable member of both the above professional bodies abides by a code of conduct regarding aversive treatment.

Both also have a complaints procedure which you can invoke should you believe that any member has breached these codes of conduct.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Closing this due to potential libel issues. It will be removed and edited as necessary


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Legshand said:


> So if this all happened with a trainer here, who has remained anonymous, why is everyone talking about a behaviourist thousands of land miles & one ocean away who does not even practice here in UK


This is probably because it contained a hyper-link and this option is not available to members with fewer than 25 posts


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2016)

Oh yeah, that deleted post was sleepy alright.

How’s your dobie bitch doing sleepybones?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Because someone has deliberately tried to besmirch the reputation of a well respected dog trainer and behaviourist in the UK by selecting various phrases out of context from a published book I am going to provide some illumination on the allegations.


To begin with Stop! By Daid Ryan consists of 10 Chapters, the first 9 of which are all about changing the target ie replacing the prey with a toy.


In Chapter 9 he discusses “conditioned disgust”


Before he gets to this point he explores the traditional punishments used by many when it comes to sheep chasing


1 Putting a dog in a pen with a male sheep or a ewe with lambs

2 Using a remote controlled electric collar on the dog

3 Introduce the dog to sheep whilst it is on a lead and tell him off for looking at them

4 Use conditioned training discs on the dog

5 Use a remote controlled spray collar on the dog

I quote:

“If any of these methods work, with the exception of the electric collar (which just has to be extremely painful) then the owner probably didn’t need to use it because the dog wasn’t sufficiently committed in the first place”

“The challenge is to find a punishment that doesn’t hurt the dog, is intense enough to make them want to stop, isn’t associated with the owner, can be monitored and appied remotely, and timed to within a second.”


Take one dog, two cotton wool balls and a bottle of extra strength lemon juice.


Soak the cotton wool ball in lemon juice. Place it under the dog’s top lip near to their canine tooth.


“The idea is to soak their taste buds, but not actually pour any down their throat. Lemon juice can make dogs vomit and we do not want them to ingest enough to make them ill, just convince them it tastes horrid."

He then goes on to explain the protocols further.

As you can see, contrary to the allegations of an individual who has their own agenda at NO time does he espouse the idea of making dogs vomit!


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## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

Yes, i found that too. Certainly doesn't advocate inducing vomiting in the dog,


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## Maxine67 (Mar 28, 2016)

MiffyMoo said:


> This thread has made me so sad, and also the video of Shadow as well, poor confused little guy


Missed this thread until just now so just reading the posts , it makes me so sad and angry to think that so called trainers get away with this type of behaviour ! It's about time dog trainers were regulated


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Dimwit:

From a "dominance" point of view, [Sit & let the human enter / exit 1st] is rubbish, but I think it's a very useful exercise in impulse control to teach your dog to sit or wait for you to go through doors, etc, first.

/QUOTE
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I could cheerfully have throttled my eejit B-I-L when he taught my year-old bitch to blow thru doors on her own - He was at home alone with her, & I was at work. My elder sis & i pulled into the driveway & parked, & when i opened the door, i heard what sounded like Jerry calling my dog... by name. I looked at his wife, & said, "He *wouldn't* let her out - would he?! --- She's in heat!"
It turned out that by Heaven, he had - & he couldn't catch her to bring her in before we discovered it. She was barreling around the yard, marking here & there, disdainfully ignoring his calls, & I was boiling mad. I let his wife deal with him - i went to get a leash, walked outside & walked her down without any calling - which she'd have ignored, predictably - & brought her back indoors.
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It was God's own grace she hadn't hopped the fence & taken off, which was only 4-ft high along one fifty-foot side; she'd jumped a 4-ft fence when she was only 5-mos old to greet an out-of-town friend, so going over it now would be a mere step.
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My Akita was independent & self-willed from the day she came home at 9 1/2-WO, & i used anything that wasn't scary or injurious to give myself some small advantage; having her sit while i entered / exited gave me hands-free ability to carry objects, scout the interior [vet's waiting-room, anyone?...] or exterior [common walkway directly outside the sold-steel apartment door?...], & then be able to bring her along behind me, having determined that it was safe, or at least knowing what situation i'd be dealing with.
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There are a dozen training-rules i can think of that B-I-L Jerry broke that day, among them insuring that the dog *must* do what U want even if they ignore the cue [no long-line on her], practicing AWAY from distractions before attempting any cued behaviors under distraction [he'd never called her before in her life, nor even asked her to sit on cue - so recall while loose in a 2,000-sq-foot yard was hopeless before he opened his mouth], repeatedly calling / cueing after the dog has clearly ignored or misunderstood the cue the 1st time [when in a hole, quit diggin].... & most of all, allowing a bitch in heat outside with NO LEASH.
Their house was a mere 2 1/2 blocks away from Military Highway in Norfolk, VA, a 4 to 6-lane wide artery choked with cars & heavy truck traffic 22 hours of every 24; from 3-am to 5-am, long-haul & short-haul trucks ruled, but the rest of the time, passenger cars were always in the mix, doing 75-mph between red lights.
She could easily have run that distance in under 30-seconds, & been roadkill.
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I never talked to Jerry about it - i got the full story later, from my sister.
It seemed he'd gotten home from the naval base at 3:30 & decided she "needed to go out" [to empty her bladder]. As his wife & i were due back at 4-pm, that seems ridiculous - in another half-hour, she'd have been out on leash with me.
Because she wouldn't come out, but stood her ground & growled at him when he came to my [closed] bedroom door & opened it to invite her out, he opened EVERY DOOR from the exit door to the back-yard, thru-out the house, then opened my bedroom last of all, & let her release *herself* from the house.  She'd barreled thru the exterior door so fast, she slammed the frame with her right-shoulder & had a whopping bruise for a week-plus.
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It took me *3 bl**dy months **after that one-time experience *before i could so much as walk toward any door without her trying to shoulder past me & get thru it, first; it took another 3-mos beyond that, before she could reliably once again default to sit without a cue, & wait while i went thru the door - always. :Banghead
I didn't blame the dog, but i cursed my BIL & 3 generations back of his ancestry, for those 6-months of needless work.
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Impulse control is important; & safety comes first, last, & always.
If U don't know what's on the other side of a door, or any other visual barrier, RECON before bringing the dog thru.
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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

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Back to the central topic:
the very 1st thing i thought of, after reading the OP, was that this so-called trainer had hung the dog - with deliberate forethought, even to warning the owners ahead of the event that she'd likely puke. 
Strangulation is a dandy way to suppress an unwanted behavior, whatever the behavior might be - but it doesn't TEACH the subject [the dog, child, horse, adult human, ___reader's choice____ ] what behavior is *desired* in that context. It leaves a behavioral vacuum, which may very easily be filled with something possibly worse than the original, unwanted behavior.
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As a for-instance:
A client brings me a dog who's highly reactive on leash, & is worst with other intact-Ms; he will posture provocatively [up on his toes, chest out, head & tail up, ears forward, hard stare] whenever he sees another intact-M, or if he sees another desexed-M lifting a leg, or kick-scratching their stool or urine.
I decide i'll deliver a hard collar-correction [known at home, out of public hearing, as a double-handed jerk] when he reacts by lunging or staring at Fs & desexed-Ms, but when he growl-barks or displays at intact or desexed Ms, i'll hang him till he can't think about anything but getting some air into his lungs.
*Please NOTE that i would never do this myself, nor would i ever suggest it to anyone, for any **training or B-mod scenario**, ever. *Lifting a dog's torso with their collar is done for one reason & one reason only: to prevent severe injury by that dog to a human or another non-human, as an emergency measure. U lift their forehand only as much as necessary to STOP the dog from attacking U - the handler - or someone else, & as soon as physically possible, that dog is behind a barrier that prevents them doing any injury to others. U use the tightened leash to direct them behind a door, into a crate, into a pen, etc, drop the lead, & shut the door or gate.
The dog is never suspended long-enuf to cause physical trauma to the airway [swelling can lead to death hours or even a day or more later], & they're never suspended long-enuf or sufficiently to make them nauseous, nor to cause the telltale micro-hemorrhages called petechiae in the tongue & the sclerae of both eyes. It's a short-term, short-duration, emergency technique - NOT training, which is planned, has goals, etc.
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To return to my hypothetical "fix":
The harsh jerks 'work' in the sense that he now watches other dogs of all genders & ages with a wary, sullen gaze on leash; he avoids them even when off-leash & does not interact, but when leashed, will now stand or even lie-down when intact-Ms come close to him, & if they get sufficiently close, he'll leap up to attack them - with no growls, barks, or any prior other indicator, but directly from a silent, fixed ambush.
The only clue is that when he's readying to ambush a M victim, he lies in Sphinx pose - not hip-over.
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Have i improved the dog's behavior? - Not IMO; he's no more relaxed around other dogs, certainly - if anything, he's more tense than ever, associating them with serious punishment & lasting pain. His reaction to other intact-Ms has escalated from posturing & lunges or barks to silent, all-out attacks; he's been sensitized. Instead of reducing his reactivity & aggro, 'hanging' him has backfired; i've changed his CER / Conditioned Emotional Response, yes, but that new form, altho quieter, is much-more violent.
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For the APO who comes by to pick up the dog they've just boarded for "training" with the abusive handler, the owner might think the dog has improved - since they literally can't see or don't understand the significance of shut-down body language, avoidance off-leash, a flattened affect, etc, & the so-called trainer surely won't let the dog see an approaching intact-M while demonstrating their 'cured' dog to the owner, before they take him home.
The so-called trainer may even blame the owner for mishandling the dog, when s/he phones to complain that the dog now attacks intact-Ms when on leash. _"U're not doing it right..." _ is easy to claim.
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BTW, a working-lines GSD belonging to a former client in Va Beach had precisely this response, as described, after his M-owner - against my express written objections - put his reactive dog in a shock-collar, & zapped him every time another M dog approached him.
He'd drop to Sphinx pose, wait till they got within striking distance, & lunge to bite with force.
The man was 6'5" or 6'6", & athletic; his wife was 5'2" and under 110#, & she could handle the dog on a headcollar easily - until her damfool husband shocked the _$%&#! _ outta him for more than a month. He just didn't like using a headcollar, & wanted the behavior "fixed, now". He refused to do any desensitization whatever.
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I only found out about the "drop & ambush" trick when i dog-sat for them over Xmas - i wasn't happy, he almost yanked my arm out the 1st time he pulled that stunt, & luckily, i had him on a headcollar at the time, with only 3-ft of leash between my hand & the clip.  From then on, i moved well-off the bike path when i saw or heard a dog approaching, & gave passing dogs a minimum of 10 to 12-ft berth. That at least managed the issue effectively.
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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

QUOTE="Legshand, post: 1064633842, member: 1445552"]choke maybe but sick[/QUOTE]

I had a dog who would sometimes be sick (ie as in vomit) as he was quite highly strung and sensitive. When I picked him up from boarding kennels once, he was so OTT excited to see me he vomited...if you add to that being lifted off the ground by your neck, yes, I think a dog might possibly vomit. I didn't know what to expect when I watched the video...I could have wept for that poor dog, he was totally confused and shocked at the way he was being treated.


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## applecrumlin (Mar 8, 2015)

LforL, thanks for the explanation. It's not so very long since I was someone who had never seen CM, but because he was one of the few "trainers" I'd heard of, I naively assumed that his approach was accepted wisdom. Luckily for my dog, I managed to discover other trainers before she came to live with me, and I now realise that CM uses appalling methods, badly. But I still have a long way to go before I would be able to explain to someone else why he might, sometimes, appear (to the uninitiated) to have been successful. Most users on this site rightly condemn him, whilst leaving the less knowledgeable of us only dimly enlightened.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

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Yes, Crumlin -
because he gets an incredible amount of airtime, AND 'cuz Natl-Geo is the cable-channel that carries his shows, he gets a lot of free credit from the general-public, who naively assume that if Nat'l-Geo approves of & promotes him, he's gotta be ethical, knowledgeable, & current in his methods - Right?
 Wrong.
Sadly, what Nat'l-Geo is looking for is a saleable product: photogenic presenter, simplistic concept, a contagious meme, & all in an attractive package. Catchy tag-lines ["exercise, discipline, affection" in that order; "dominant dog" can mean virtually anything when he uses it] & a warm-sounding voice-over that minimizes & misstates the use of force, all convince viewers that they aren't really seeing what they're seeing - dogs who are intimidated, challenged, anxious, feel trapped, or are forced into situations that are known triggers - then punished for predictably acting-out.
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A media-major used CM/ DW as the subject of her thesis some years ago, & had a very edifying analysis of his tightly-scripted, predictable shows - with flexible use of footage, re-arranged to suit the narration of the voice-over, & off-camera use of a stooge dog to get intensely-reactive responses from the "guest" dog on camera.
His programs follow a format: we see the problem behavior; CM arrives, smiling; the dog is discussed with the owner(s); we hear simplistic explanations of the dog's current behavior; we see the dog misbehave - often provoked by CM - then he stages his intervention, et voila! - the dog is "cured". A few minutes of the owner(s) & dog are shown post-intervention with the issue apparently resolved, & the episode ends - Everyone lives happily ever after.
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In real life, it's not that simple - or successful. My colleagues in USA-apdt who lived in his local area [L.A. / SoCal & nearby] frequently complained of how incredibly difficult it was to do B-mod on dogs he'd already worked with, as invariably their problems had been exacerbated or new [typically worse] issues cropped up post-CM.
Several of his most dramatic, high-profile dog-aggro or human-aggro dogs were re-homed or surrendered to shelters post-"rehab", & several inflicted much-more severe injuries AFTER he'd worked with those dogs - but due to his gag-order forbidding "guests" from talking about what he did, how he did it, or any aspect of filming, "training", or production, we can't know anything about it.
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Some of the dogs he worked with were subsequently euthanized; others went to new homes where their problem behaviors got apropos B-Mod & were largely resolved, or successfully managed - either is IMO a better result than lifelong "corrections" & nonstop confrontation, or shut-down dogs who do nothing spontaneously, but look anxiously for permission to do anything more radical than breathe or have a pulse.
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Shadow, the dog-aggro Mal-X who was seen being throttled into submission [after being set-up to fail on camera, with a neighbor's intrusive BC that he hated] was re-homed to an experienced home with owners who already had another adoptee-Mal, & he blossomed into a dog who, incredibly, went to the local dog-park & played with dogs of all sizes & types.
. 
Marc Bekoff:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...adow-and-cesar-millan-update-the-strung-husky
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Pat Miller:



__ https://www.facebook.com/pat.miller.5015/posts/10201941071077163


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The red Jindo, JonBee, was a murkier case; after he was surrendered by his owner(s) - the "rescue" couple seen on CM's episode - he was listed as available by an L-A rescue, & his whereabouts were later unknown.
https://www.ourdogsonline.com/viewtopic.php?t=19846
It's unfortunate that one of the ppl condemning CM's methods goes on to praise LCK & Behan - who use different language, but do many of the same things, including use of prong or shock or choke-collars, confrontation, & so on, but again make it difficult to 'hear' the use of force or aversives when they speak or write about their methods.
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Patti Labelle's Boerbel bit her savagely when she attempted the handling methods CM had advised, & he was re-homed to a family who briefly posted about how much better he was doing - then he abruptly disappeared from social media, & it's suspected he was euthanized.
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For more info on why CM / DW's methods are ill-advised & out of date, see
"The Dog Whisperer: Frequently Asked Questions" by Lisa Mullinax, CPDT
http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm
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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

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@KatieandOliver ,
U might ask the GSD owners if they noticed any tiny spider-like bruises on her tongue, gums, or flews, or whether her eyes were bloodshot, after that initial consult.
If they did, U can then debate if U want to let them know that their "trainer" of choice had literally come close to killing her, in the name of 'fixing her bad behavior' - those were the petechiae I spoke of, tiny hemorrhages caused when the capillaries of the mucus-membranes ruptured under the spike in her blood-pressure, caused by semi-strangulation.
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I don't think even the most-desperate owners would feel a dog deserved a death sentence, or a stroke & possible paralysis or other lifelong brain-injuries [deaf, blind, etc], for nuisance barking, leaping on visitors, & other out-of-control behavior.
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Without even seeing the dog in Q, merely knowing she's a GSD of working-lines, i'd say they're still overdogged & beyond their own comfort zone, & unless they find something that they themselves can do *with* her as a hobby or quasi-job, none of the 3 - owners or dog - will be very happy for the next decade.
Waiting for her to age into a less-demanding senior dog is no fun for anyone.
Her 'job' doesn't have to be athletic; she might excel as a literacy-dog, having kids read to her - but they'll never know till they try, what her talents might be.
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## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

Just watched the CM video. Why did i. He started all that by kicking the dog! Bloody idiot. Cant stand the guy!
Ive never met anyone who likes him as a trainer or his methods. Shocked someone said there are people on here that do! Maybe they will watch this video and sort their heads out!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

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The video of Shadow & CM/DW has been posted many times, DD -
folks who are persuaded by what he *says* rather than seeing what he does, will not be dissuaded. They can rationalize everything he does, by using some of his own line of patter. 
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