# Walk your dog with love



## Guest (Mar 3, 2014)

WALK YOUR DOG WITH LOVE. THE BEST FRONT LEADING DOG HARNESS IN THE WORLD. It Is Time To Lead! WYDWL

Its an American brand and I was wondering if their were similar designs here in the UK I think this maybe what Millie and I need. I can't get anything yet but will look at it in the future when the money is their.


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## Lizz1155 (Jun 16, 2013)

It looks the same as the Premier Easy-Walk Harness, which is sold in the UK. I picked up one for Ted from Amazon  http://www.amazon.co.uk/PetSafe-Eas...416&sr=1-1&keywords=premier+easy+walk+harness


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

It's very like the Premier Easy Walk which is cheaper. I got mine off Amazon, about £12 odd I think. Also the premier harness is adjustable to fit properly! Which is particularly useful with a growing dog.

I've used the Premier harness with Isla for several months now and it works very well.



Edit
You got there before me Lizz


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2014)

I really like the design i'm thinking of commissioning a collar maker to make a similar design thats more like the Julious K9 which I like most because you can attatch signs to a dog which is usefull when you own a DINO like I do.

I personally think it would be usefull to have two clips for leash access on the top and front so when you go to a field or quiet area you can attatch a flexi to it and then attatch to a normal leash to the front when you leave the park.

I'd better get saving


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Indie-Dog will make one up for you. Apparently they can adapt the Neo harness which is back fastening, to have a front ring on as well. Once Isla has stopped growing I plan to get them to make me one to match the walking belt I have from them.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

It's a bog standard front clipping harness. There are already tons of them on the market here in the UK. The Halti harness, Mekuti harness, Easy Walk harness etc.

Besides, a harness with just one front clip would NOT stop a determined puller - they could pull right into that no problem. 

I thought your combination of head collar and Flexi lead was perfect?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Prowl said:


> I really like the design i'm thinking of commissioning a collar maker to make a similar design thats more like the Julious K9 which I like most because you can attatch signs to a dog which is usefull when you own a DINO like I do.
> 
> I personally think it would be usefull to have two clips for leash access on the top and front so when you go to a field or quiet area you can attatch a flexi to it and then attatch to a normal leash to the front when you leave the park.
> 
> I'd better get saving


I applaud you thinking about getting a harness to use with your flexi

This one seems to be recommended quite often but I think it's quite expensive.
https://mekuti.co.uk/harness_shop.htm

One of my walk dog has one of these and it seems to fit beautifully, seems very safe and also comfortable
Front clip harness - Perfect Fit Harness


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2014)

Siskin said:


> Indie-Dog will make one up for you. Apparently they can adapt the Neo harness which is back fastening, to have a front ring on as well. Once Isla has stopped growing I plan to get them to make me one to match the walking belt I have from them.


That sounds ideal I like the neo and haudini harnesses but didn't think the length of the haudini would suit a puller like Millie but if a clip could be attatched to the front for pavement and public walking then that would give us a lot more security.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2014)

My trainer gets a lot of freebies to test out, and Bates ends up being crash-test-dummy a lot. The walk with love harness is not just like the EZ walk by premier. Walk with love will fit better (more adjustable) and it has martingale-type attachments that tighten slightly under pressure so its much harder to slip out of. Plus it has 2 attachments, Premiers only has one. I use the premier on Bates and Breez but put it on upside down and backwards so that the front clip part actually ends up over the shoulders. 

Probably the most similar comparison to the Walk With Love would be the Mekuti.

I do hope this means you have digested the comments on the other thread and are considering no longer doing the gencon/flexi thing. :thumbup1:


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2014)

ouesi said:


> My trainer gets a lot of freebies to test out, and Bates ends up being crash-test-dummy a lot. The walk with love harness is not just like the EZ walk by premier. Walk with love will fit better (more adjustable) and it has martingale-type attachments that tighten slightly under pressure so its much harder to slip out of. Plus it has 2 attachments, Premiers only has one. I use the premier on Bates and Breez but put it on upside down and backwards so that the front clip part actually ends up over the shoulders.
> 
> Probably the most similar comparison to the Walk With Love would be the Mekuti.
> 
> I do hope this means you have digested the comments on the other thread and are considering no longer doing the gencon/flexi thing. :thumbup1:


I did give leather leash/gencon a go and found she actually pulls more on a standered then on a flexi!

I will continue to use it as it suits us and our environment it gives me the controll I need and we don't have any issues that PF members have suggested will happen.

I am open to alternatives if I think their appropriate. I have never used a harness for any great deal of time because I find as soon as we encounter a trigger Millie starts to pull and she chokes herself on a harness she doesn't do this on the gencon especially if I kneel down with her while the dogs walk by us she just is much calmer. Most owners also acknowledge that Millie is nervous when I do this and call their dog away which is great if they don't recall their dog within a couple of meters I call out to them.

A flat collar is not ideal for her either as the same thing would happen and she would hurt her neck.

Something with alternative clips without a tightening motion to train with could help our situation.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2014)

Prowl said:


> I will continue to use it as it suits us and our environment it gives me the controll I need and we don't have any issues that PF members have suggested will happen.


It took me a while to decide whether to respond or not...
You're a very frustrating person to interact with. The above is an excellent example. You have the grand total of one dog's worth of experience, people with much more experience and knowledge are telling you something, and you're basically saying you know better.

Saying you've not had any issues with a gencon+flexi combo is like a smoker saying they don't have lung cancer. No, you don't have lung cancer, and gawd I hope you don't get it, but you can't deny the link between smoking and lung cancer.

The only difference in your scenario is that it's your dog you're endangering, not yourself. Your dog who has no choice in the matter.
If she pulls on a gencon, use different equipment, train her better, or do a combination of both.

There is help available to you in the training department. A PF member even offered to have you come watch some of their training sessions. You have all these hands reaching out to help you do better by your dog and you just slap the hands away....

I hope you get a harness and figure out better ways to handle Millie and her nervousness. I hope things work out for both of you.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Prowl said:


> I did give leather leash/gencon a go and found she actually pulls more on a standered then on a flexi!
> 
> I will continue to use it as it suits us and our environment it gives me the controll I need and we don't have any issues that PF members have suggested will happen.
> 
> ...


With respect, you do need to listen to what more experienced people are telling you, if only for the sake of your bitch.

The combination you're using at the moment is potentially dangerous.

You say your bitch pulls hard and is timid around other dogs, yet I noticed on another thread yesterday you said you wouldn't go to a training class as you would know more than the Trainer!


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2014)

ouesi said:


> It took me a while to decide whether to respond or not...
> You're a very frustrating person to interact with. The above is an excellent example. You have the grand total of one dog's worth of experience, people with much more experience and knowledge are telling you something, and you're basically saying you know better.
> 
> Saying you've not had any issues with a gencon+flexi combo is like a smoker saying they don't have lung cancer. No, you don't have lung cancer, and gawd I hope you don't get it, but you can't deny the link between smoking and lung cancer.
> ...


Now you know whats its like for me talking to the vast majority of owners here on PF. Your owners not experts you are free to your own opinion, you are free to critisize my choice but at the end of the day I walk the dog and if I say I have not had a problem with the combo then you all must learn somehow to accept that is the case. Bullying and insulting someone till they cave into your ways is a very wrong way to about something.

I am open to other alternatives but so far nothing has worked as well as the gencon/flexi combo as I have explained a million times.

At least i'm not coppying my neighbours and letting my dog go off wondering near busy roads.

My dog by the way is a happy and healthy and will not come to any danger while she is with me. If it wasn't for other owners in the area who don't care what happens to their dogs she would be much happier.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

When I saw you were interested in harnesses, I thought, oh good you have read the posts telling you how dangerous using a flexi with a halter can be and have decided to get a harness. But it seems not.

Now it doesn't bother me one bit whether you find it too difficult to admit you might just be wrong about something, but to continue to defend your usage of a flexi with a halter on a public forum is clearly silly. Visitors to this forum searching about whether it's safe to use a halter with a flexi may well read your posts and wrongly assume it's perfectly safe and go ahead to the detriment of their dog.

Please,listen to people who have far more experience then you about dog ownership and training.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

It looks like the Premier 'easy walk' or whatever it's called. I tried one with Dex ages ago. Personally I didn't like it; he didn't look like he was walking comfortably and it did nothing to help reduce the force of any lunges. 

Halti do a front attaching harness and I prefer that I think.


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## staffgirl (May 1, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Halti do a front attaching harness and I prefer that I think.


Me too - And Pets at Home do an almost identical front attaching harness which I've found better than the Halti version as the black fabric dye continuously came off onto my 2 pale dogs' fur. It has 2 points you can attach a lead - one at the front of the chest and one on the back.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Siskin said:


> Visitors to this forum searching about whether it's safe to use a halter with a flexi may well read your posts and wrongly assume it's perfectly safe and go ahead to the detriment of their dog.


 Absolutely agree.

Thousands of people will read this.

Those on here with a great deal of experience (some of whom *are* experts and not "mere owners" :huh have a duty of care to point out to other readers any dangers or pitfalls in advice given by others.


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## staffgirl (May 1, 2013)

Prowl said:


> Bullying and insulting someone till they cave into your ways is a very wrong way to about something.


I don't think that anything about Ouesi's post came across as "bullying and insulting." She is disagreeing with you, and explaining the reasons why.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Prowl, have a glance at the title of this thread. 
It may be the name of a harness brand, but it's a good method to adopt all round I would say


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Prowl, do you remember how completely and utterly certain you were that raw was the only suitable diet for dogs and that anything else wasn't natural and obviously anyone feeding a commercial diet doesn't really care about their dog?

Then suddenly you weren't convinced that raw is actually all that natural or the best diet for dogs?

Maybe you should try and be less opinionated about something definitely being the best option. 
People aren't bullying you, they are trying to _help_ you.

I sympathise with having a dog that pulls, Danny pulls like a cart horse, but I wouldn't risk his health just because something _seems_ alright.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2014)

Siskin said:


> When I saw you were interested in harnesses, I thought, oh good you have read the posts telling you how dangerous using a flexi with a halter can be and have decided to get a harness. But it seems not.
> 
> Now it doesn't bother me one bit whether you find it too difficult to admit you might just be wrong about something, but to continue to defend your usage of a flexi with a halter on a public forum is clearly silly. Visitors to this forum searching about whether it's safe to use a halter with a flexi may well read your posts and wrongly assume it's perfectly safe and go ahead to the detriment of their dog.
> 
> Please,listen to people who have far more experience then you about dog ownership and training.


I listen but not to those who insist on getting personal with me it serves no purpose why should I take it? What respect does that show?

So the fact I have used the combo for a year with no problems because I'm carefull means nothing? People just jump on board and assume I'm being dangerous?


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

> *Those on here with a great deal of experience* (some of whom *are* experts and not "mere owners" :huh *have a duty of care to point out to other readers any dangers or pitfalls in advice given by others.*


..............................................................


Prowl said:


> So the fact I have used the combo for a year with no problems because I'm carefull means nothing? People just jump on board and assume I'm being dangerous?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Prowl said:


> I listen but not to those who insist on getting personal with me it serves no purpose why should I take it? What respect does that show?
> 
> So the fact I have used the combo for a year with no problems because I'm carefull means nothing? People just jump on board and assume I'm being dangerous?


Because the combination is potentially lethal. It doesn't matter how careful you are you absolutely cannot guarantee you have 100% control of your environment at all times. Or that your dog will do something unexpected. But hey, carry on, you know best after all.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Prowl said:


> So the fact I have used the combo for a year with no problems because I'm carefull means nothing? People just jump on board and assume I'm being dangerous?


Just because you have walked across the same bridge for a year with no problems because you are careful, doesn't mean that one day that bridge won't collapse as you are walking over it carefully...


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> Just because you have walked across the same bridge for a year with no problems because you are careful, doesn't mean that one day that bridge won't collapse as you are walking over it carefully...


Or that a troll won't leap out and gobble you up 

Seriously, all it takes is one time and you've got a dead dog. Why risk it?


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2014)

StormyThai said:


> Just because you have walked across the same bridge for a year with no problems because you are careful, doesn't mean that one day that bridge won't collapse as you are walking over it carefully...


Like what?

I will have you know I have walked her safely in the local park, on public paths, near beaches and our usual quite field with no problems what so ever. She is far safer on this combo then anything else I have used and we had had dogs run at us and she has not come to any harm.

Maybe if someone could presant me with evidence then I maybe more understanding why everyones so against it.

If I didn't see the great sucess I have had with it I simply would not use it.

Hounding me into submission will certainly serve no purpose.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Prowl said:


> Hounding me into submission will certainly serve no purpose.


While it might feel like you are being bullied, but the posters are showing genuine concern for your dog's well being.

I'm sure if your dog walked nicely to heel without any equipment you wouldn't decide you no longer needs a lead when walking beside a road in case of the freak noise or whatever that could spook your dog and cause then to run front of a car. It's a similar sort of scenario you could do this for year with no problem but one day that one freak thing happens and you are left heart broken and full of regret.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Prowl said:


> Like what?
> 
> I will have you know I have walked her safely in the local park, on public paths, near beaches and our usual quite field with no problems what so ever. She is far safer on this combo then anything else I have used and we had had dogs run at us and she has not come to any harm.
> 
> ...


Seriously, the only person getting worked up on this thread is you. Why do you become so defensive when others don't agree with you?

Ouesi was not even slightly insulting to you.

If something were to scare your bitch and she ran suddenly and hit the end of the lead, your combination could snap her neck. I know it hasn't happened yet, but I'm afraid all that means is you've got away with it so far.

People here aren't claiming to be experts. We're all always learning and nobody knows it all, but you've had two years experience with one dog and yet you put yourself across as someone who has all the answers.

The bottom line is, your flexi/Gencon is a combination which is proven to be dangerous and I'm afraid it doesn't matter how "Careful" you are, accidents happen.


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

moonviolet said:


> While it might feel like you are being bullied, but the posters are showing genuine concern for your dog's well being.
> 
> I'm sure if your dog walked nicely to heel without any equipment you wouldn't decide you no longer needs a lead when walking beside a road in case of the freak noise or whatever that could spook your dog and cause then to run front of a car. It's a similar sort of scenario you could do this for year with no problem but one day that one freak thing happens and you are left heart broken and full of regret.


^^^ This. There is a lady on my road who walked her Golden Retriever off lead for years. It quietly plodded beside her, wasn't phased by people/dogs/cats anything, it paid no attention. One day, for reasons that were never discovered, it spooked at something and bolted into the road. We live on a very quiet street, but there happened to be a car coming and the dog was hit. She was lucky to escape with just a broken leg.

All it takes is one time, why take the risk?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Prowl said:


> Like what?
> 
> I will have you know I have walked her safely in the local park, on public paths, near beaches and our usual quite field with no problems what so ever. She is far safer on this combo then anything else I have used and we had had dogs run at us and she has not come to any harm.
> 
> ...


I am not hounding anyone to do anything, and I don't doubt that you have used this combination with success.

I was merely pointing out that just because someone does something for a set amount of time without issue, does not equate to nothing will ever happen, especially when we are discussing a free thinking being 

Would I use the combination you do? No
Would I advise others to use it? No

Your dog, your decision as to how to train her and what tools to use. I just hope that you never experience the real issue of using a long line or flexi on a head collar.

Long lead + running dog attached by a head collar = sudden stop at the end of the lead - after prolonged use and/or a sudden sharp stop could end up with serious whip lash injuries at best.

No one is forcing you to do anything, just trying to explain basic physics really


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Prowl said:


> *A flat collar is not ideal for her either as the same thing would happen and she would hurt her neck.*
> 
> Something with alternative clips without a tightening motion to train with could help our situation.


Your worried about her hurting her neck being walked on a collar as she pulls yet you walk her in a head collar and flexi   :thumbdown: Either use a normal lead with the head collar or harness with a flexi .............. it's not rocket science, is it :sosp:


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2014)

If I use any old harness she will back out of it 

if I use a normal leash and flat collar she will pull until she chokes herself 

if I use a harness and a flexi she will pull and choke herself or get spooked and try to back out.

The only time she got spooked was in a harness and she nearly backed out onto a road! 

Never had it happen with a flexi/gencon combon. I do often wonder if people just like to moan at me for the sake of it but if members ever bother reading my comments I did note that I am looking into other alternatives so what good exactly does jumping on a band wagon with pitch falks do?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

You could use a flat collar with a head collar for times when she needs to be on a short leash like this set up









He is walked predominantly on his flat collar, the head collar only comes into play if it is needed.

And then get a "Houdini" harness to use with a flexi or a long line.

That way you have the head collar there when needed and you can clip the flexi or long line onto the harness for areas where she can have more freedom.

Obvious risks averted


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

I dont consider it opinion I consider it fact. It has nothing to do with bandwagons, or bullying you personally apart from the fact that it is you personally who is .....

Combining any type of long line or flexi with a head collar is potentially fatal. 

Note I say potentially, I dont have to be an expert, I dont even have to own a dog to understand the physics of that. A dog hits the end of that at speed and its head is whipped round so fast the damage that could be caused is horrific  

You may have used it without issue but how you can fail to see the 'potential' for injury is astounding, it may be something that suits you and Millie very well, she may (despite her severe nervousness and capacity to pull so hard she manages to choke herself on a harness of all things) walk perfectly on this combination for the rest of her life (which might not be long if you carry on using it) but to deny that there is an issue with it, is shows a n astonishing lack of foresight and could endanger any other readers dogs who believe you.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Prowl said:


> If I use any old harness she will back out of it
> 
> if I use a normal leash and flat collar she will pull until she chokes herself
> 
> ...


The bit in bold.

The whole point of a harness is that it does not affect the throat, but fits on the chest. So how does she choke in a harness?

My lurcher could be standing on his back legs and lunging after a squirrel like a demented idiot, but he has never choked in his harness.

There are harnesses that are designed so that dogs cannot back out of them - they have a second strap behind the ribcage where the body narrows.

I am not having a go at you, but I think the reason that some members get frustrated with you is because your posts are often contradictory. You often ask for advice and then completely disregard everything that is offered and become quite belligerent tbh.

Of course, it is your prerogative whether to take anyone's advice but you must see that to continually ask for help and then repeatedly dismiss any that is offered, especially when you seem to be the only one who disagrees, could become a little aggravating


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

I don't understand how she can choke on a harness? Daisy pulls a lot sometimes but the harness spreads the weight across her body so she doesn't choke, unlike in a collar. 

ETA: Beat me to it LL!


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## catseyes (Sep 10, 2010)

Zelda pulls me like steam train at only 11kg i cant believe how much power she has in those little back legs she is 100 times harder to walk than my 50kg grizzler ever was.

I use a harness the ezydog chest plate and whilst im very aware she can put more pull into it i would rather my arm ached than got hurt, she would strangle herself on a standard collar.

When on the harness she has the flexi - used over fields where there are too many rabbits to be safe letting her off, and if we do a long road walk and i need more security i will use a dogmatic or have her on the harness but on a walking belt.

I cant bear to think if i had her on a headcollar with a flexi heaven forbid if it failed on a road, if she ran for a cat and i stopped the lead her little neck would snap like a twig, i just dont understand how a risk like that is worth taking.

Obviously its up to you but the thought just makes me cringe.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Prowl said:


> If I use any old harness she will back out of it
> 
> if I use a normal leash and flat collar she will pull until she chokes herself
> 
> ...


So normal lead and head collar (as i said  ) or the set up just shown above but a flexi and head collar is darn right dangerous :thumbdown:


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

Siskin said:


> It's very like the Premier Easy Walk which is cheaper. I got mine off Amazon, about £12 odd I think. Also the premier harness is adjustable to fit properly! Which is particularly useful with a growing dog.
> 
> I've used the Premier harness with Isla for several months now and it works very well.
> 
> ...


The easy walk tightens though doesn't it? This one doesn't.

We had a WYDWL harness when Broder was little. It's how he learned he could pull by jumping on his back feet, which is something we're still trying to correct nearly 2 years on! He also managed to snap it as it's not very substantial. It sits funny too.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Rosie was an expert at getting out of harnesses. She could rear up, jump backwards and duck her head, all in one movement.

She now has a Puppia harness with a chest plate design and she can't back out of it and believe me, she's tried!!

I absolutely fail to see how any dog could be choking in a harness. They don't, or shouldn't, go anywhere near the neck, so that's impossible.

Prowl, if you put as much energy into absorbing some of the advice you're given as you do arguing, you would be much the wiser.

You ask for opinions and get riled up when they aren't what you want to hear.


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## Lizz1155 (Jun 16, 2013)

I admit that I cringed at the idea of a flexi being used with a headcollar... but I then googled what the Gencon head collar looks like, and the set up isn't _quite_ as terrible as I had assumed.

The gencon appears to have a lead attachment which goes around the dog's neck, rather than being attached under/beside the muzzle like most headcollars. So if the dog were to stop suddenly, the risk of having their neck twisted and injured isn't quite as big compared to, say, if the dog were wearing a halti. A halti headcollar and a flexi would be really inadvisable, due to where the lead attachment point is...


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

Rory has a houdini harness from Indi-dog - has a front and back attachment. (I'm pretty sure Sid can put rings wherever you like!)
Front rings sorted out his pulling and no matter how much he wiggles, he can't get out, nor does it pull on his neck at all


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2014)

I get angry when people just pick at the bad stuff and then and then moan about what I use even though thats not the topic of the thread. 

The gencon is much safer then other head collars the only thing I don't like is that it does tighten and would prefer a working alternative. Whip lash is unlikely to happen as you can guide the dog round when they get to the end of the leash before they get their. Its only likely happen if the dog suddenly charges at break neck speed to the end they could cause real damage. 

Believe it or not on a harness Millie does choke herself when she pulls hard enough say if she spots a cat but thats why I shorten the lead and I guide her away with the gencon something I can't do on a harness without added security. I have been looking at the neo and haudini harness and think they would be ideal if I get her used to a Neo then get a haudini at a later date and introduce that.

I own the head collar peice of the gencon which comes with a clip the gencon is designed to be used with very gentle movements when used correctly you can use it in combination with any leash it is not as dangerous as many are making out otherwise I simply would not use it!

Its made from the material used in horse reigns so its incrediblely strong yet very comfortable (and expensive so most people would be put off anyway) Its not something I would recomend for every dog but it suits us.

Her leash manners are getting very good lately their is only one road path were she will pull like a bull and I want to move her onto something kinder then a gencon. I guess you could say I want to get her off the staberlisers.

Stormy Tai is that the dogmatic your dog is wearing?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Prowl said:


> Its only likely happen if the dog suddenly charges at break neck speed to the end they could cause real damage.


Good luck

Fingers crossed

Walks away .......................


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## Lizz1155 (Jun 16, 2013)

Prowl said:


> I get angry when people just pick at the bad stuff and then and then moan about what I use even though thats not the topic of the thread.
> 
> The gencon is much safer then other head collars the only thing I don't like is that it does tighten and would prefer a working alternative. ..


I noticed that too, but I didn't know whether there was any kind of limiter on how much it tightened.

If there isn't a limit on how much it can tighten, have you considered altering it so that there is one? E.g by sewing a button or decorative toggle (large enough not to be dragged through the eyelet) onto the halter at whatever you think limit should be.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Prowl said:


> Stormy Tai is that the dogmatic your dog is wearing?


Yes that is, unlike the gencon and other head collars it does not clamp around the mouth. With a correctly fitting dogmatic they do not move on the face or ride up into the eyes, and unlike the halti (for example) they are almost impossible to slip out of (I would never say completely because there is always one lol).

For me and Thai it has enabled us to work on his dog re-activeness safely and calmly, which helps keep his stress levels down so we can work on his B-mod plan.

You should always use head collars with a double ended lead either attached to a collar or a harness so there isn't constant pressure on the nose IMO (this is just my opinion and is based on my own experiences with head collars, they become much more effective tools when used sparingly as the dog doesn't have time to learn how to work against it(i.e just putting their nose down and plowing away)). If the head collar only comes into use when the dog is pulling then they start to learn if they stay on a LL there is less stopping and turning about in theory add to that giving treats/playing a game when the dog is beside you and not pulling and start to see some real progress 

If you do decide to opt for a Dogmatic make sure you look at the fabric over the leather, as the leather can be a bit stiff and heavy for some dogs.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Prowl said:


> If I use any old harness she will back out of it
> 
> if I use a normal leash and flat collar *she will pull until she chokes herself *
> 
> ...


I hesitate to point out the obvious but how about training her not to pull? If you wanted to be a dog trainer and you know it all then why can't you teach your dog that simple behaviour? Yes it takes time and effort, but it's achieveable with your dog.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Lizz1155 said:


> I admit that I cringed at the idea of a flexi being used with a headcollar... but I then googled what the Gencon head collar looks like, and the set up isn't _quite_ as terrible as I had assumed.
> 
> The gencon appears to have a lead attachment which goes around the dog's neck, rather than being attached under/beside the muzzle like most headcollars. So if the dog were to stop suddenly, the risk of having their neck twisted and injured isn't quite as big compared to, say, if the dog were wearing a halti. A halti headcollar and a flexi would be really inadvisable, due to where the lead attachment point is...


Yes, but the Gencon headcollar does tighten, so if a Flexi was fully extended and the dog lunged or hit the end of the line running, it's still not a great scenario.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

OP can I also just say, that my dog used to pull and also lunge like mad and was very nervous - and yes it's taken a hell of a lot of work but he now walks really nicely in a headcollar or a front attachment harness - and he's a 35kg Lab. I never ever used a headcollar with a flexi lead and my dog is bigger and stronger than yours. My point being: you CAN work on the issues WITHOUT using such a potentially dangerous combination of tools.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Raw isn't natural for dogs because they have to be supervised.
Your dog cannot have a semi slip because it will choke her.

Two statements you have said in the past.. (Only said the raw thing because someone mentioned it earlier)

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...qxgeAP&usg=AFQjCNEWd7pRkV4P4rq1B6BfqEViib6o5A

Ludi has the Houdini Ultra Harness from indi-dog - it has a ring at the end and one where there would be one on a regular harness. The belly strap is merely there so the dog cannot pull out of the harness - the belly strap cannot go past the ribcage.

As said above - just because something hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it cannot happen. Life is full of risks but most of us chose to TRY and avoid them.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Is this the right advice from someone who walks other people`s dogs?


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Save your money, don't buy 'non pull' harnesses, put a bit of time and consistency in and *teach* her where you want her to walk. All you need is a collar (half check if she's likely to back out) and lead - just turn when she goes out of the area where you want her and praise when in the correct place. Just make sure you're consistent.


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## rune (Mar 24, 2012)

Very surprised that you still have problems Prowl. I remember when you first got your dog and asked for help. With all the knowledge you have gained since then I am sure you are capable of teaching her to go behind you for protection.

Such a shame you can't see any problems with what you are doing. Bit blinkered really.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2014)

Lizz1155 said:


> I noticed that too, but I didn't know whether there was any kind of limiter on how much it tightened.
> 
> If there isn't a limit on how much it can tighten, have you considered altering it so that there is one? E.g by sewing a button or decorative toggle (large enough not to be dragged through the eyelet) onto the halter at whatever you think limit should be.


The good thing is the gencon is designed to loosen soon after when the dog pulls on it and is a down right safer to use then a check collar or a slip lead.

Its much more comfortable in its design then most head collars and most of the walk Millie no longer pulls that much and she walks loosely so I am also extremely vigulent and all ways on the look out for any possible triggers my trigger finger is also pretty fast on the flexi. Theirs no yanking involved either.

I think a dogmatic would be ideal so I can train out of the gencon into something that doesn't tighten but can give me the extra control when on path ways. The forward clip on a harness could help me to teach Millie focuss stearing her in.

I would not use leather for either a harness or a head collar padded material is better :>


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Prowl said:


> I would not use leather for either a harness or a head collar padded material is better :>


Based on what, other than your opinion..? Is a fabric padded collar better than a leather one?

I guess not since you ordered her a very expensive one from America..


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## HappyWag (Aug 25, 2012)

We had a similar head collar to the gencon, and used a double ended lead with it, the way I used it was that the head collar only came into play when Jasper pulled, and the head collar was allowed to tighten slightly, otherwise he was walked by the other end which was clipped onto his harness. I used both hands (hope this makes sense)
I think that is the best way to use them, not by one point of contact ie. the head collar only. 
also if your lead breaks, or the head collar is slipped, your dog is still attached to you. The Gencon is similar to a slip lead in that it tightens and does not stop tightening until you release the pressure. They recommend maximum of 6 feet leads to be used with them.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Yes, but the Gencon headcollar does tighten, so if a Flexi was fully extended and the dog lunged or hit the end of the line running, it's still not a great scenario.


The thought of that made me wince :yikes:.

Prowl - the Gencon brochure says 'that a dog should not get used to pulling into a Gencon, and if this is the case, it maybe necessary to instruct the help of a qualified behaviourist'.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

PROWL - sorry but you are incorrect. I used a Gencon headcollar for a while and no way would I ever pair one with a headcollar.

*WHY do you think the MAKERS OF the headcollars WARN not to pair them with a flexi????*

Do you think you know better than the very people who MADE the heacollar you use


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2014)

Prowl said:


> Now you know whats its like for me talking to the vast majority of owners here on PF. Your owners not experts you are free to your own opinion, you are free to critisize my choice but at the end of the day I walk the dog and if I say I have not had a problem with the combo then you all must learn somehow to accept that is the case. Bullying and insulting someone till they cave into your ways is a very wrong way to about something.
> 
> I am open to other alternatives but so far nothing has worked as well as the gencon/flexi combo as I have explained a million times.
> 
> ...


I did not criticize you.
I did not bully you.
I did not insult you.
I'm not trying to make you "cave".

I am simply trying to point out the significant potential dangers of what you're doing. 
The reason I keep repeating myself is because a) you seem unable/unwilling to comprehend what folks are telling you, so I keep trying to say the same thing different ways in the hopes that you will get it (hence the smoking analogy), and b) every time you post that you're doing something so dangerous, I feel the need to refute it for the sake of lurkers, newbies or random google-ers who may happen upon the thread.

However, if you genuinely feel I am bullying you, I would suggest you report my post and any others that you feel are bullying, insulting, etc.

On a personal note Prowl, about 20 years ago, I sat with a dying horse's head in my lap as he bled out through his nose and mouth, utterly terrified, horrific look in his eyes, wondering why he couldn't breathe or move. 
His owner, like you, knew what she was doing, despite the repeated warnings of the barn manager, myself and many other fellow riders who told her that lunging her flighty horse in double side reins was an accident waiting to happen. Her horse who she "knew" would never rear, reared. And fell backwards and broke his neck. She was too freaked out by the whole thing to even be there for her terrified horse for his last breaths.

I hope to everything you and your dog never suffer a tragedy, but understand that if I see a way to avert a potential tragedy, I will.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2014)

I do wonder how much of posts people actually bother to read the childish remarks from some of the older more experienced owners are frankly worrying. Please grow up!


I have mentioned that since using the flexi she rarely pulls except in certain places which I am working on as mentioned previously.

I repeat I am looking at alternatives to the gencon not be critisized about my use of it if you don't like it fine. If you can't say anyting usefull accept for nasty childish comment and digging up the past then back off!


I am greatfull to those who are bothering themselves to read my posts and take the time to make usefull suggestions.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Everything else aside - Walk Your Dog With Love has got to be the most horribly twee name for a dog product ever.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2014)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> PROWL - sorry but you are incorrect. I used a Gencon headcollar for a while and no way would I ever pair one with a headcollar.
> 
> *WHY do you think the MAKERS OF the headcollars WARN not to pair them with a flexi????*
> 
> Do you think you know better than the very people who MADE the heacollar you use


On the gencon site it actually states that with the head collar any leash is compatable. Its designed that way to be safe.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Prowl said:


> I do wonder how much of posts people actually bother to read the childish remarks from some of the older more experienced owners are frankly worrying. Please grow up!
> 
> I have mentioned that since using the flexi she rarely pulls except in certain places which I am working on as mentioned previously.
> 
> ...


It is not the Gencon people are worried about.

It is your pairing of the Gencon WITH a flexi that we are imploring you to rethink.

Bizarre that we are more worried about your dog's safety than you are!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Prowl said:


> On the gencon site it actually states that with the head collar any leash is compatable. Its designed that way to be safe.


Can you really not yet see that not one single person has agreed with you?

Can the rest of the forum be wrong and you right?

Do you think there's the slightest chance you could be wrong?


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Prowl said:


> On the gencon site it actually states that with the head collar any leash is compatable. Its designed that way to be safe.


By 'leash' they do NOT mean flexi.

Shall I email them and prove it to you?


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## PawsOnMe (Nov 1, 2012)

Could you not use the headcollar on a normal lead when doing close walking and then an harness (with back ring) with the flexi when she's allowed to go further to sniff and potter around. As using a training aid to stop pulling and putting them on a flexi where they have to pull (however light) to get the tape out kind of defeats the point.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2014)

Prowl said:


> I do wonder how much of posts people actually bother to read the childish remarks from some of the older more experienced owners are frankly worrying. Please grow up!
> 
> I have mentioned that since using the flexi she rarely pulls except in certain places which I am working on as mentioned previously.
> 
> ...


Is this directed at me?


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

Prowl, was it you who wanted to be a dog trainer? If it was, I sincerely hope you've thought about how what tools you are seen and known to use impact on what your clients use. If not, I apologise.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Is this directed at me?


Their are some comments on this page which are just plain childish their further up its not aimed at you.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Please show me where on the Gencon site it states 'any leash' can be used. I want to see if they specifically include an extending lead in that.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2014)

Megan345 said:


> Prowl, was it you who wanted to be a dog trainer? If it was, I sincerely hope you've thought about how what tools you are seen and known to use impact on what your clients use. If not, I apologise.


How is this relevent? I have no interesting in becoming a trainer for some time I just wish people would stop digging this up.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Sweety said:


> Can you really not yet see that not one single person has agreed with you?
> 
> Can the rest of the forum be wrong and you right?
> 
> *Do you think there's the slightest chance you could be wrong*?


Impossible


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## rune (Mar 24, 2012)

That's OK then


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Prowl said:


> I do wonder how much of posts people actually bother to read the childish remarks from some of the older more experienced owners are frankly worrying. Please grow up!
> 
> I have mentioned that since using the flexi she rarely pulls except in certain places which I am working on as mentioned previously.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but in absolute fairness, the only "childish" remarks I've seen in this thread have come from you.

Others are speaking out of genuine concern, you on the other hand, seem hell bent on proving yourself right, even when you're so obviously wrong.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2014)

Prowl said:


> Their are some comments on this page which are just plain childish their further up its not aimed at you.


Then I would refer you back to my post and say that you should report those posts that you feel are out of line instead of continuing the argument on the thread. That just feeds the fire if you will.


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

Prowl said:


> How is this relevent? I have no interesting in becoming a trainer for some time I just wish people would stop digging this up.


It's relevant because the combination you're using is dangerous for all the reasons people have given you, whether you agree or not (I'd hope you at least understand what they're saying). I'd hate to think of you being the cause of other dogs being subjected to that, whether it was intentional on your part or not - you must see that would be irresponsible to say the least?


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Then I would refer you back to my post and say that you should report those posts that you feel are out of line instead of continuing the argument on the thread. That just feeds the fire if you will.


I don't have to do anything the critisism over my use of the gencon and flexi is irrelevent to this thread.

The best thing others can do is say nothing if all their going to do is make snide remarks or turn this into a debate.

I will repeat because their are still some mebers not reading my posts

I am looking at alternatives to the the WYDWL harness as I think it would suit us but hey no matter lets jump on the bandwagon again.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Prowl said:


> How is this relevent? I have no interesting in becoming a trainer for some time I just wish people would stop digging this up.


It is relevant. Again, on a thread yesterday, you said you would never go to a training class as you would know more than the trainer.

I can't believe any reputable trainer would recommend such a combination.

You really do have so much to learn and you could learn a lot from this forum, but you do seem to think you know it all.


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## HappyWag (Aug 25, 2012)

I beg to differ Prowl. But you are so wrong in this case. You are using a device ie a flexi lead which to work your dog must pull on it. The other device is a gencon head collar which tightens when a dog pulls! 
copied this from the Gencon site. (hope this is allowed)

'Never yank or jerk your dog while it is wearing the Gencon. If it is necessary to get the dogs attention, just stop the walk and apply gentle upward pressure until your dog stops what he or she is doing and relaxes. As soon as your dog stops you MUST remove the pressure immediately. Timing is everything in this  as it is in so many other things in life!'

If you care at all about Millies welfare, which I know you do. Please stop this dangerous practice, you are doing your poor dog no favours at all. 
People on here are not being childish...you are I am afraid.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Prowl said:


> I am looking at alternatives to the the WYDWL harness as I think it would suit us but hey no matter lets jump on the bandwagon again.


Ahh yes, we have actually forgotten that you are trying to fix your mistake.

I'd personally would have a Roman style harness on a dog that pulls and has the tendency to lunge..


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Prowl said:


> I don't have to do anything the critisism over my use of the gencon and flexi is irrelevent to this thread.
> 
> The best thing others can do is say nothing if all their going to do is make snide remarks or turn this into a debate.
> 
> ...





Prowl said:


> I do wonder how much of posts people actually bother to read the childish remarks from some of the older more experienced owners are frankly worrying. Please grow up!
> 
> I have mentioned that since using the flexi she rarely pulls except in certain places which I am working on as mentioned previously.
> 
> ...


You have said that the gencon/flexi works for you (not your dog).

I don't give a monkey's nuts about what you think, but unlike you, I care about what will happen to your dog if it darts off the lead with the headcollar and the flex. Rarely pulls means that she does sometimes and on those 'sometimes' will result in a serious injury.

My question is why are you repeatedly fixating on the gencon/flexi when there are clearly more experienced people giving you advice whilst you ignore the bleeding obvious. A massive vet bill!

I've emailed Gencon about flexi leads with their headcollars and I'll let you know what they say.


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

Come on guys.. we're now 8 pages in and Powl is convinced they are right. 

You're not going to convince them the safety of their dog is at risk. It's a loosing battle.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> You have said that the gencon/flexi works for you (not your dog).
> 
> I don't give a monkey's nuts about what you think, but unlike you, I care about what will happen to your dog if it darts off the lead with the headcollar and the flex. Rarely pulls means that she does sometimes and on those 'sometimes' will result in a serious injury.
> 
> ...


lol I just emailed them too - they'll be wondering what's going on


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> lol I just emailed them too - they'll be wondering what's going on


And I tweeted. 

See Prowl, that's how seriously we take this...


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

cloversmum said:


> Come on guys.. we're now 8 pages in and Powl is convinced they are right.
> 
> You're not going to convince them the safety of their dog is at risk. It's a loosing battle.


At least other people reading this thread will know it's not the way to go.


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

Megan345 said:


> At least other people reading this thread will know it's not the way to go.


I agree and wasn't criticizing the replies.. just don't think Powl is going to listen or take the safety of their dog seriously.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2014)

I'm not being convinced by people who are attacking me go on your other little thread if you wish to debate this combo but this is not what this thread is about. 

Please just back off unless your going to suggest something useful that doesn't like a personal attack. 

see previous posts and read propperly not just what you want to see so you can have a pop.

I'll repeat stop bringing up that I want to be a dog trainer it wont be happening for a long time. It has nothing to do with this thread.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> PROWL - sorry but you are incorrect. I used a Gencon headcollar for a while and no way would I ever pair one with a headcollar.
> 
> *WHY do you think the MAKERS OF the headcollars WARN not to pair them with a flexi????*
> 
> Do you think you know better than the very people who MADE the heacollar you use


I 100% disagree with using a flexi or long line with any head collar - but I have to admit that I've just had a look at the Gencon website and I can't see any warnings against using them


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Prowl said:


> WALK YOUR DOG WITH LOVE. THE BEST FRONT LEADING DOG HARNESS IN THE WORLD. It Is Time To Lead! WYDWL
> 
> Its an American brand and I was wondering if their were similar designs here in the UK I think this maybe what Millie and I need. I can't get anything yet but will look at it in the future when the money is their.





Lizz1155 said:


> It looks the same as the Premier Easy-Walk Harness, which is sold in the UK. I picked up one for Ted from Amazon  http://www.amazon.co.uk/PetSafe-Eas...416&sr=1-1&keywords=premier+easy+walk+harness


The WYDWL looks exactly the same as the much cheaper and easily available easy-walk.
I did have an easy walk to try on Zipper - 2 things that didn't work for us, he learned very quickly to pull backwards or to the side and it rubbed his armpits


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## LolaBoo (May 31, 2011)

Prowl is always right didnt you know that  and god forbid anyone who doubts she is wrong, and that everything she says is fact


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Prowl said:


> I'm not being convinced by people who are attacking me go on your other little thread if you wish to debate this combo but this is not what this thread is about.


Nobody is attacking you on that thread.

A certain method of equipment use is being discussed, which also happens to be one you use.

Earlier on in THIS thread you wanted to know exactly how the use of that equipment could be dangerous. And that is what is being discussed on there. If you want to make it all about you, then be my guest - but I don't see your name anywhere on there.

I can see you might feel it is attacking YOUR method, but it is not attacking you. There is a difference.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2014)

MerlinsMum said:


> Nobody is attacking you on that thread.
> 
> A certain method of equipment use is being discussed, which also happens to be one you use.
> 
> ...


People are just spamming then nothing that suggest any actual danger just other assuming their will be a danger.

As the gecon site suggests the headcollar is designed to be compatable with any leash if it meant that did not include flexis do you not think common sense might tell them that is the fact?

Considering that nearly all owners use flexi's as their standered leash do you not think the main website would not include a warning ?


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Prowl said:


> I'm not being convinced by people who are attacking me go on your other little thread if you wish to debate this combo but this is not what this thread is about.
> 
> Please just back off unless your going to suggest something useful that doesn't like a personal attack.
> 
> ...


Tell me, if I said in passing on a thread that I regularly take a stick on a walk and beat Molly with it*.... would you let that pass without comment? No, so why on earth do you expect kind hearted dog owners to watch whilst you set your dog up to strangle itself?

*disclaimer, I don't of course, she beats me with safety sticks on my legs and I listen to advice, evaluate it and have the (girl) balls to admit when I'm wrong like an adult. If Gencon come back and say 'hey go ahead and use a flexi with our product' then I'll take issue with them not PF or threads associated to it.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Prowl said:


> People are just spamming then nothing that suggest any actual danger just other assuming their will be a danger.


You haven't read it, then?


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Leaving aside the discussions about your current setup, I am not sure I like the design of this harness - it seems to sit very low and I would worry that it would restrict the normal movement of the dog.
For a harness to help with training not to pull I would always go for a mekuti - it has really helped with my dog.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2014)

The irony 

I once got myself a harness because I saw on this site that was the thing to use with a flexi. 

I have never had any issues before near roads and when crossing to an island in the road my dog got spooked and attemtped to nearly back out on the road behind us with cars comming from.

That was a harness by the way the thing which people recomend all the time without suggesting to get it made to measure.

When I used the gecon/flexi before we never had any issues crossing that island. Now we can't go because its too dangerous to introduce to such a spot.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Prowl said:


> People are just spamming then nothing that suggest any actual danger just other assuming their will be a danger.
> 
> As the gecon site suggests the headcollar is designed to be compatable with any leash if it meant that did not include flexis do you not think common sense might tell them that is the fact?
> 
> Considering that nearly all owners use flexi's as their standered leash do you not think the main website would not include a warning ?


95% of dog owners I know DON'T use flexi's as day to day leads


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Does anyone else find the thread title ironic?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Prowl said:


> *Considering that nearly all owners use flexi's* as their standered leash do you not think the main website would not include a warning ?


I think that is a bit of a stretch tbh, the vast majority of walkers I see do not use a flexi.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Prowl said:


> People are just spamming then nothing that suggest any actual danger just other assuming their will be a danger.
> 
> As the gecon site suggests the headcollar is designed to be compatable with any leash if it meant that did not include flexis do you not think common sense might tell them that is the fact?
> 
> *Considering that nearly all owners use flexi's as their standered leash do you not think the main website would not include a warning* ?


Er, what???

Since when do 'nearly all owners' use a Flexi?

You can't simply make up facts.

I have emailed the team at Gencon. They have recently revamped their website; the old version DID have a warning about headcollars I believe, as do other sites selling headcollars.

And the other thread, which yes I started, does not even name you. I have every right to post a warning to my fellow dog owners, some of whom are quietly 'lurking' and may heaven forfend listen to you advocating such a dangerous pairing of tools.

*PROWL - I used to pair a flexi with a half check collar, a long while back. I genuinely had no idea it was dangerous *until* the good folk here on PF warned me. I stopped using that combination - yes it made my life a bit more difficult BUT I will never knowingly risk the well being of my dog!*


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Prowl said:


> I'm not being convinced by people who are attacking me go on your other little thread if you wish to debate this combo but this is not what this thread is about.
> 
> Please just back off unless your going to suggest something useful that doesn't like a personal attack.
> 
> ...


Several people have suggested something useful. One person, and I'm sorry, I don't just remember who, even posted a picture of their dog in an ideal combo for a dog that pulls. You've ignored and argued with them all.

On the one hand you say your bitch rarely pulls, and elsewhere you have said she chokes herself in a harness because she pulls so hard.

I honestly believe your main priority is proving yourself right, not the welfare of your bitch.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

I use a 3ft lead that extends via a slider to 6ft.. no cord, no tape.. 

Or slip leads.

I would show you the difference between headcollars, flat collars and harnesses when used with a flexi with a dog that pulls - but I value my animals too much to do that and none of my dog teddies will stay put to prove a point.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

StormyThai said:


> You could use a flat collar with a head collar for times when she needs to be on a short leash like this set up
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with this -lead and head collar set up for road walks and where you need good control - safe harness and flexi/longline for when it is safe to have more freedom.

it's easy enough to put both harness and head collar on when you leave the house an when you get to the fields (or where ever) clip on the flexi to the harness and slip off the head collar 

I't what I used to do with Zipper when he went through his really reactive and non recall stage


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## rune (Mar 24, 2012)

TBH it only takes a small amount of common sense to work out that the two tools are opposites, one is designed to give untrained or unreliable dogs an amount of freedom, the other is designed to give close up control over the dog. It isn't rocket science to work out how dangerous combining the two could be.

However, as this thread proves, it is hard to argue with ignorance.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Prowl said:


> People are just spamming then nothing that suggest any actual danger just other assuming their will be a danger.
> 
> As the gecon site suggests the headcollar is designed to be compatable with any leash if it meant that did not include flexis do you not think common sense might tell them that is the fact?
> 
> *Considering that nearly all owners use flexi's as their standered leash *do you not think the main website would not include a warning ?


I don't, and I don't know anyone who does for that matter. Haven't we already had this discussion on another thread, about headcollars and flexi leads? Or is this the same one?

I seem to recall on that thread you said that your dog wouldn't just bolt because you know her body language too well. I was out with mine today, luckily on a common, and someone in the distance fired a gun. Ferdie took off. I easily got him back with the promise of a gravy bone, but if he had been wearing a headcollar and flexi lead he would have damaged his neck, possibly even broken it.

Now, why are we having this argument again, please?


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2014)

Prowl said:


> People are just spamming then *nothing that suggest any actual danger just other assuming their will be a danger.*


Speaking of not reading posts.... Im not assuming anything. I KNOW the dangers of a flexi with a head collar. I KNOW the dangers of sudden whiplash injuries, and I KNOW they can result in death. I also posted specific links on the previous thread, you must not have read those posts. Here, Ill post the links again:


ouesi said:


> For anyone questioning the dangers of a retractable leash, I wasnt kidding about flexis chopping fingers off.
> 
> Retractable leashes pose problems for people and their pets
> 
> ...





Prowl said:


> As the gecon site suggests the headcollar is designed to be compatable with any leash if it meant that did not include flexis do you not think common sense might tell them that is the fact?
> 
> Considering that nearly all owners use flexi's as their standered leash do you not think the main website would not include a warning ?


And now whos assuming? Nearly all owners use flexis as their standard leash"? Youre kidding right? Ive never used a flexi as a standard leash and no one I know personally does either. And I venture to guess I know more dog owners than you. Though true, that last bit is an assumption


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

I have used the exact set up that StormyThai showed with brilliant effect, I have also used the double ended lead with a harness and head collar.

I have had an Indi Dog neo with a front ring it works very well, plus looks smart. A double ended lead is needed to use it to stop pulling.

To be honest I think the double ended lead is a perfect tool for training dogs not to pull. The dog can be walked using the normal collar or harness attachment, leaving the front fastening or head collar to be brought into action only when the dog pulls. 

My best tool though has been me. If she pulls I stop, I then don't move another step forward until she is at my side. I encourage her to walk at my side by tempting her with a treat as she arrives I click and treat. If she won't come to my side but is lunging forward I take a step back, if that fails I take another backward step.

Ok some days its easier than others but that's life.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Prowl said:


> Considering that nearly all owners use flexi's as their standered leash do you not think the main website would not include a warning ?


Let's clear up something....

Many pet owners use Flexis. Many - but not all.

Those who are a bit more educated about dogs, tend not to (except when safe to do so, and attached to a safe - for the dog - part of the dog's other equipment).

What you see out and about, and usually badly used, is just a snapshot of a certain kind of dog owner. The most visible, if you like. But they are not the only dog owners in the world, and I would confidently say, if you set up a Poll on here as to who uses them versus who doesn't, you will get a majority who don't.

But you would need to offer a poll option of when and where, plus what the Flexi is attached to.

It is inherently unwise to assume that "all" dog owners use them, because that simply is not correct.

Why do you think I don't use one? Because I never have? Or because I have used one and have found it unsuitable? Are you assuming I never have used one?


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## zedder (Aug 21, 2013)

hi prowl my set up for my dog is if we are in an area I can't let my dog off lead its flexi and Julius k9(good harness) round town more control needed situations dogmatic and strong leather leash never had any problems can walk him on a flat collar in quieter spots I know everyone has been at you about the head collar flexi combo but please take note the consequences of your dog bolting could be awful and nobody wants an injured or worse dog.


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

Prowl said:


> If I use any old harness she will back out of it
> 
> if I use a normal leash and flat collar she will pull until she chokes herself
> 
> ...


No piece of equipment is a substitute for training. Not one of them! Your posts make it sound as though you are not actively working on modifying her behaviour through training, are you? 
Before my family and I knew better we used to rely on headcollars, half checks, no-pull harnesses and even a choke chain to curb Scooter's pulling. What worked was ditching the gadgets and using consistent, positive training. Nothing else.

For the sake of your dog please buy her a suitable harness like the Indi-Dog Houdini Ultra, Ruffwear Webmaster, or Mekuti (these seem harder to back out of than most) for when she is on her flexi lead, and ideally use a double-ended lead with one end attached to the harness and one on the headcollar if you are walking her on the gencon. The DE lead can be clipped around your body while she is on the flexi and harness so isn't an extra thing to carry. These equipment applications are far safer than your current method. 
Find a positive, reward-based method for loose-lead walking on the gencon that suits you both, and get training.

If for whatever reason you decide to continue with the gencon and flexi combo, I sincerely hope that your girl never comes to any harm as a result of it, and I hope no-one who sees you walking her in this setup decides to copy you and then has an accident.
Necks are delicate, it doesn't take much to acutely or chronically damage them.


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2014)

Fleur said:


> I agree with this -lead and head collar set up for road walks and where you need good control - safe harness and flexi/longline for when it is safe to have more freedom.
> 
> it's easy enough to put both harness and head collar on when you leave the house an when you get to the fields (or where ever) clip on the flexi to the harness and slip off the head collar
> 
> I't what I used to do with Zipper when he went through his really reactive and non recall stage


Millie is getting much better which is why I am looking at alternatives I'm thinking I may use a dogmantic and a neo harness and when we have progressed further I will eventually have her on a haudini harness. She only pulls in one area now i'm working on it and we are getting there.


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2014)

I've tried to keep my mouth shut on controversial threads recently (I just don't need the drama), however, this thread really irks me.

I'm not sure how old you are Prowl, but you really come across like a teenager (even though I'm pretty sure you're older than that). You have that "I'm invincible" thing going on, with no consideration for circumstances outside of your control. You're like the teenager who risks people's lives by driving too fast because they think they're a good driver - but unfortunately they don't take into account the wet road. Or the one who takes extacy because they've taken it before and been fine - but doesn't take into account the drug dealer that cut it with something nasty.

You are risking your dog's life because you're acting like a teenager. No matter how well you know your dog, you can't control everything, and you can't be sure that one day something won't happen to cause your dog to run to the end of the flexi and _break her neck_. Maybe it won't happen for 5 years. Maybe it'll never happen. Maybe it'll happen tomorrow. Do you really want to play the odds?

We all take risks, that's the nature of life, but they should be measured risks. There is NO REASON for you to take this risk.

The reason so many people are up in arms and berating you on this thread is because we love dogs, and we can't stand to see a dog's safety being risked in this way when there's no need for it.

For goodness sake Prowl, stop acting like a teenager, let go of your pride and _look after your dog._


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2014)

What part of I am looking at alternatives to use because we have had *great sucess* with my combo and are nearly at a stage were I feel ready try alternatives do people not quite get?

How is attacking me with your opinions and starting another thread up going to help me decide?

Maybe if people changed their attitudes and the way they debate and stop acting like children then maybe I would actually listen.

A large chunk of people believe that their is nothing better then raw but that does not make it so their are groups that will ban you for mentioning kibble so I hear?

Are you saying I should just go along with YOUR opinion just because a group of you believe it so. Maybe if you all thought jumping off a cliff was a good idea maybe I should join you?


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2014)

Prowl said:


> What part of I am looking at alternatives to use because we have had *great sucess* with my combo and are nearly at a stage were I feel ready try alternatives do people not quite get?
> 
> How is attacking me with your opinions and starting another thread up going to help me decide?
> 
> ...


It's not an opinion - it's a DANGEROUS FACT. If someone told me I was putting my dog's life at risk it wouldn't matter whether they said it nicely or shouted it at me - I would listen because I love my dog!!! And I would use my common sense to decide whether they had a point or not.

It is nothing even remotely like raw feeding - raw feeding or not is very unlikely to kill a dog. Putting a flexi on a head collar is very likely to kill a dog!

If I told you to jump off a cliff I would hope that you'd use critical thinking skills to decide that wasn't a good idea because it risked your safety. If someone told you to put a flexi on a head collar I'd hope that you'd use critical thinking skills to decide that wasn't a good idea because it risked your dog's safety....

Use your common sense and a basic understanding of physics and PLEASE come to the conclusion that putting a flexi on a head collar might kill your dog TODAY.

:mad2:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Prowl said:


> What part of I am looking at alternatives to use because we have had *great sucess* with my combo and are nearly at a stage were I feel ready try alternatives do people not quite get?
> 
> How is attacking me with your opinions and starting another thread up going to help me decide?
> 
> ...


But the things you mention are not dangerous, merely opinion. My parents' dogs all lived to a ripe old age on human food. It wasn't good for them but it wasn't going to hurt them either. What you are doing is going to hurt your dog, perhaps irreparably. Nobody is getting at you; we are merely concerned with the safety of your dog.


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2014)

McKenzie said:


> It's not an opinion - it's a DANGEROUS FACT. If someone told me I was putting my dog's life at risk it wouldn't matter whether they said it nicely or shouted it at me - I would listen because I love my dog!!! And I would use my common sense to decide whether they had a point or not.
> 
> It is nothing even remotely like raw feeding - raw feeding or not is very unlikely to kill a dog. Putting a flexi on a head collar is very likely to kill a dog!
> 
> ...


But it clearly is not dangerous as I have used it to sucess 
The only time I have experienced bolting or my dog getting spooked was when she was in a harness and it was the only time it nearly cost her, her life I had been using flexi/gencon before with utterly no issues at all.

As I said before its not for every dog or every situation but in my case it has worked very well.

Never had whiplash
Never caused an injury
Never escaped
Nearly at a stage now were I can explore alternatives.

Attacking me is not helping me.


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## Wyrekin (Sep 10, 2012)

Prowl said:


> *But it clearly is not dangerous as I have used it to sucess *
> The only time I have experienced bolting or my dog getting spooked was when she was in a harness and it was the only time it nearly cost her, her life I had been using flexi/gencon before with utterly no issues at all.
> 
> As I said before its not for every dog or every situation but in my case it has worked very well.
> ...


Just because it hasn't caused any damage so far doesn't mean it won't. 
I drive my car everyday, successfully, doesn't mean I might not crash it tomorrow.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Prowl said:


> But it clearly is not dangerous as I have used it to sucess
> The only time *I* have experienced bolting or my dog getting spooked was when she was in a harness and it was the only time it nearly cost her, her life *I had* been using flexi/gencon before with utterly no issues at all.
> 
> As *I said* before its not for every dog or every situation but in *my* case it has worked very well.
> ...


It is all about you isn't it? Like I've said before, I don't care much about what you think but I am concerned - as we all are - about Millie. The incident with the harness, where you lacked the common sense to understand that harnesses come in different sizes and need to be adjusted makes me think how on earth are you able to get a gencon right. You appear to be blaming the harness for causing Millie to get scared when the responsibility is on you to fit it correctly and train appropriately. A poor workman blames his tools....

And just to advise you that I have had a reply from Gencon this morning in which they say they state 'our headcollar should not be used with a flexi lead'. They seem rather appalled that anyone would think this when the advice on how to use a headcollar is common place but I have asked them if they would consider updating their website, instructions on reprint and share this on social media. They also suggest that if the user is in any doubt to contact a qualified trainer. Prowl - you have had lots of free advice from qualified trainers on here. I suggest for the millionth time you listen to it. And the advice of the manufacturer too.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Prowl said:


> But it clearly is not dangerous as I have used it to sucess
> The only time I have experienced bolting or my dog getting spooked was when she was in a harness and it was the only time it nearly cost her, her life I had been using flexi/gencon before with utterly no issues at all.
> 
> As I said before its not for every dog or every situation but in my case it has worked very well.
> ...


Just because you have not experienced a bad / dangerous experience does not mean it is not dangerous 

I step in my car every morning doesn't mean I'm not in danger driving on the roads just because I havnt had a bad crash 'yet'.

There's no logic to that statement.

I am pretty sure I said it earlier on or even in a different thread but if you require a head collar for your dog to use a Flexi lead then you shouldn't be using a Flexi.

When I was walking a friends dog who has iffy recall and I was weary of harness failure (I'm very OTT and would never forgive myself if something happened in my care) I got a spare Lupine collar and looped it between his harness and his fixed collar.

Then if he slipped the harness he is still attached to me 

Meaning he could run around with the freedom of his long line.

There are other alternatives - A head collar should only be used for close control work / training.

Plus it cannot be comfy for the dog 

As said before its your dog and your choice but hopefully you can look into other alternatives.


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2014)

Prowl said:


> But it clearly is not dangerous as I have used it to sucess
> The only time I have experienced bolting or my dog getting spooked was when she was in a harness and it was the only time it nearly cost her, her life I had been using flexi/gencon before with utterly no issues at all.
> 
> As I said before its not for every dog or every situation but in my case it has worked very well.
> ...


You have gotten away with using this combo SO FAR. I have never been in a serious car crash, but that doesn't mean I'm going to go around driving drunk, without a seatbelt on, and speeding. Because one day, I might be in a crash, and I might die. And one day, your dog might run to the end of the line, and she might die.

I can't believe you can't see this.

NOTHING is helping you Prowl. It has been said over, and over, and over again in so many ways by so many people, but for some insane reason you continue to believe that because it hasn't happened YET, it's not going to happen.

All I can say is, the day it DOES happen, I hope your pride helps in some way.

Now I remember why I try not to get involved in controversial threads - no matter what the topic, some people will never see sense.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Prowl said:


> What part of I am looking at alternatives to use because we have had *great sucess* with my combo and are nearly at a stage were I feel ready try alternatives do people not quite get?
> 
> How is attacking me with your opinions and starting another thread up going to help me decide?
> 
> ...


Jumping off a cliff = serious harm and potential death
Flexi or long line used with any head collar = prolonged tension and stress through the skeletal structure and/or potential death (a snapped neck isn't something that many dogs will recover from).

I for one am very pleased that you are looking at another alternatives to what you are using, but the main frustration, is your reluctance to admit that maybe what you are using at the moment is not really the best for two main reasons, and those are:

1: You have paired one training device that requires the dog to pull to get the leash out, with another that is designed to release the pressure once pulling stops.

2: The combination you have chosen is a potential risk of injury, and a nasty one at that.

I would even go as far to say that the combination you have chosen is not working the way that you think it is. It may appear to be working to your eye BUT as soon as you take that head collar off I can place a bet that Millie will just go back to pulling and lunging...

The idea of any tools we use to train our dogs with is that they should be short term solutions until we can get the training in required to deal with the "issue" WITHOUT relying on these tools. Which is another reason we (and any respectable trainer) say it is best to combine a head collar with a double ended lead, only using the tools as and when it is needed..

We all make mistakes as dog handlers, be that small or large, not one of us is exempt from making mistakes.....what does separate us tho, is the willingness to listen to others views on things and then go off and conduct your (general you) own research which will either confirm or blow out what has been said..

If you find information that proves people wrong, then you will already have the links to help back up your argument.
If you find information that proves maybe people have a point then you learn to swallow that humble pie, *and stop trying to protect what you are doing as if it is some super special secret that no one has worked out yet.*

The bit in bold is why I see everyone getting a bit frustrated...it's awesome that you are now open to change, but quit defending your method...If you want to carry on using it then there is nothing anyone can do, but stop playing the petulant child that appears to be digging their heels in for no more than self gratification 

And please stop with the attacking and bully card...a disagreement does not = bullying and you claiming so is making a mockery of those that are bullied.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Am I right in thinking at the beginning of this thread Prowl acknowledges that a flat collar on a pulling dog could cause damage? HOW HOW HOW can you not see that a gencon/flexi could do 100% more damage then??

Confused.com


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Years ago I used to use a flexi when out walking with Toby (although it was attached to a harness). One day a squirrel suddenly leapt fromn a tree in front of us & Toby lunged forward. As he suddenly reached the end of the lead the jolt to my arm/shoulder was quite severe & I was in such pain for days afterwards. 

I dread to think if that had been Toby's neck that had taken that force, especially if I had been silly enough to attach it to a headcollar


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Prowl said:


> But it clearly is not dangerous as I have used it to sucess
> The only time I have experienced bolting or my dog getting spooked was when she was in a harness and it was the only time it nearly cost her, her life I had been using flexi/gencon before with utterly no issues at all.
> 
> As I said before its not for every dog or every situation but in my case it has worked very well.
> ...


Do you not see that is the same as saying that smoking is not dangerous because I have done it for years and I am still here. Who needs a seatbelt? I have never worn one and I am still here. My dog ate a box of chocolates but he was not poisoned, so obviously chocolate being bad and poisonous for dogs is a myth. And again, nobody is attacking you; we are only concerned for the safety of your dog.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

All I can say is that I sincerely hope it does not take your dog breaking her neck for you to see what a stupid and dangerous thing attaching a flexi leash to a head collar is. Would that even be proof enough for you? Or would that just be a freak accident because you've used the combination with no problems for so long before?


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## Lizz1155 (Jun 16, 2013)

Just to add... people on here have already covered the possible trauma to the spine resulting from a sudden neck twist. However atrial dissection (damage to an artery) has been overlooked - and it takes far less force for this to occur than it does to fracture something. 

In humans atrial dissection can happen through trauma (car crash, chiropractic adjustment gone wrong) but they can also happen from hyperextension of the neck - sometimes you see case studies of where it has occurred through over-zealous yoga practice (fish pose  ). In most cases it results in a stroke, but in minor cases it's fainting and flushing. Either way, it's not pleasant. 

Guess it's an assumption, but I thought dog-neck anatomy wasn't too far removed from human anatomy? At least, that's what harness-makers tend to say


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

My post made on the thread about combining Flexi and Head collar..



> Having clocked my two youngest on a harness at 22mph. Blue line is the speed if anyone cares to dispute..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thought it might be useful to post it here too.

And for the record Prowl - I have a friend who runs a Cocker who can get up to 20mph in less than 60 seconds..


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Wow....

Just wow....

I used to walk Lexi on a flexi and a collar, then someone told me how dangerous it was. Shes now walked on a harness.

Shes on a normal lead until we get to the field and then on her flexi. I know they aren't well loved but they work well for us, and to be fair shes not on it that much. If something was to happen to it (snap etc) she isn't going to go anywhere and she has good recall. Its for the just in case there is another dog on the field she can still have a potter without us having to worry about the other dog.

But the attitude of it isn't dangerous because nothing has happened yet astounds me.
Its like saying I know my car has dodgy brakes, but I've driven it every day for the past 10 months and nothing bad has happened, until the one day you kill someone.
Same with drink driving.
Or the child friendly dog who would never hurt anybody then kill a child....

In all of the situations, people know they are dangerous situations, but 'nothing bad has ever happened' so they keep going and it takes the worst possible outcome for them to realise the full potential of the danger.

I jsut hope it doesn't take the worse outcome in this situation.


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

I will add that although I have not used a WYDWL harness, this style of harness is not hard to back out of at all due to the position of the girth strap; they're normally too far forward to prevent backing out. All it takes is a quick tug backwards for the dog to be able to slip its front legs through and escape. 
Breeze used to have an EzyDog Quick Fit harness which is very similar to the Indi-Dog Neo harness and could get out of it easily if she was spooked, she's not managed to get out of her EzyDog Chestplate harness or Rogz H harness despite a few good attempts!

You would be better off with an H style/roman style harness, or the Ruffwear webmaster as previously mentioned.


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2014)

Its not that people are trying persuiad me its the attitude and how this being handled that feels like I'm being attacked how would you feel??

Some of you take the time to read your own comments as I have especially before posting people need to be more tacticle and less personal when explaining something.

Because I'm getting very angry I emailed the gencon site myself and here is what they said



> Using a flexi lead is ultimately the choice of the dog owner.
> We do not recommend their use due to the risk of sudden jerking.
> I am glad you have found the Gencon so effective.
> If you have any questions we are only too delighted to put them to our panel of expert Trainers / Behaviourists.


I have emailed them to ask if they can confirm your views 
Incase anyone is wondering I don't jerk the leash, you can use the gecon with extremely gentle movements to achieve what you want.

She is good off the gencon we went for a walk the other day on a harness and it was only in one place were she continued pulling. We do one or two walks without the gencon and have found Millie will walk next to me most of the walk as I have started teaching her to heal at home.

Something with a clip on the front will give some extra security when walking on public paths. A suitably designed harness will ensure she can't back out of it.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

So the makers of the Gencon do not recommend the use of a flexi with their product then 

So .... are you going to take their opinion on board?


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Prowl said:


> Its not that people are trying persuiad me its the attitude and how this being handled that feels like I'm being attacked how would you feel??
> 
> Some of you take the time to read your own comments as I have especially before posting people need to be more tacticle and less personal when explaining something.
> 
> ...


YOU may not jerk the leash but if she pulls off in any direction then there is a jerk - sometimes more depending on the speed - will you take time to read my above post.

See even Gencon don't recommend it - so you're reading what you want to see rather than what they have said. They are only pleased you've had success because you will then advertise for them. But I hope this thread and what they have said puts a lot of people off their products.

Stop taking things so personal - it's not you people have a problem with it's the situation and set up that is endangering your dog that people have the problem with.


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2014)

SLB said:


> My post made on the thread about combining Flexi and Head collar..
> 
> Thought it might be useful to post it here too.
> 
> And for the record Prowl - I have a friend who runs a Cocker who can get up to 20mph in less than 60 seconds..


I can see what your saying and were people are comming from but I don't allow my dog to run at the end of the flexi it doesn't happen.

2 walks at least we do on a harness to make sure the training is in effect I am at a place were she pulls in one place and as I know were these places are her leash remains shortend while work on the problem.

I know that if I find something suitable we can progress our training were as we will all ways be limited with a gencon head collars are great but they are just stabalisers.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Prowl said:


> I can see what your saying and were people are comming from but I don't allow my dog to run at the end of the flexi it doesn't happen.
> 
> 2 walks at least we do on a harness to make sure the training is in effect I am at a place were she pulls in one place and as I know were these places are her leash remains shortend while work on the problem.
> 
> I know that if I find something suitable we can progress our training were as we will all ways be limited with a gencon head collars are great but they are just stabalisers.


And how do you prevent her running to the end of the lead... that button that stops the tape/cord - which will make a jerking action..

You're relying far too much on tools - and badly set up tools at that.

Please take time to read through this and how people view types of harnesses..

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/323068-harness-thread.html

Then watch these..

Stop pulling and "Yo-yoing"- clicker dog training - YouTube

How to train your dog not to pull- Loose Leash Walking - YouTube

How to teach a dog not to pull on leash: Leash walking - YouTube

Loose Leash walking - No Pullling! Problem Solving - YouTube

If you stop taking everything personal and open your eyes to things and your mind to what people are suggesting you may have Millie walking on a loose leash everywhere within 6 months if you're consistent. Stop saying you know more than us (forum) and just listen.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Prowl said:


> I can see what your saying and were people are comming from *but I don't allow my dog to run at the end of the flexi it doesn't happen. *
> 
> 2 walks at least we do on a harness to make sure the training is in effect I am at a place were she pulls in one place and as I know were these places are her leash remains shortend while work on the problem.
> 
> I know that if I find something suitable we can progress our training were as we will all ways be limited with a gencon head collars are great but they are just stabalisers.


But this happens so quickly at times that you may not have time to 'not allow it'. The makers of the product do not recommend your set up yet you ignore them - why?

If you have such amazing, lightening quick responses & 'do not allow' situations then how come your dog needs a gencon?

I find it sad that you are so willing to put your dog at risk due to a determination in being 'right'


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Prowl said:


> I can see what your saying and were people are comming from but I don't allow my dog to run at the end of the flexi it doesn't happen.
> 
> 2 walks at least we do on a harness to make sure the training is in effect I am at a place were she pulls in one place and as I know were these places are her leash remains shortend while work on the problem.
> 
> I know that if I find something suitable we can progress our training were as we will all ways be limited with a gencon head collars are great but they are just stabalisers.


Hi Prowl

How does she react when you see other dogs or cats or wildlife?

I once saw a dog on a head collar and flexi, she didn't run but pulled to get to other dogs to play. It was horrid to watch her flinging herself around on the end of a flexi, having her head and neck whipped around in all directions, even backwards toward her shoulders 

The owner was unable to get her calm or under control because she was so far away 

It was quite frightening to watch


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

PROWL

*Can you please just tell me, how it is that *you* know better than the very people who CREATED the Gencon *

They have now clearly stated: *they do not recommend the use of  their product, the Gencon, with a flexi lead.*

What part of their saying this is in any way open to your misunderstanding it???


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Prowl said:


> But it clearly is not dangerous as I have used it to sucess
> The only time I have experienced bolting or my dog getting spooked was when she was in a harness and it was the only time it nearly cost her, her life I had been using flexi/gencon before with utterly no issues at all.
> 
> As I said before its not for every dog or every situation but in my case it has worked very well.
> ...


Hi Prowl,

Whenever I have to cross a busy main road, I do it with my eyes shut.

It's obviously not dangerous as I have never been run over and I have used it to great effect.

Does that sound stupid to you? It's exactly what you're doing ... taking a huge risk with your dog's safety.

You say you're fed up of the attitude of others on the forum and keep claiming that you're being attacked.

Has it occurred to you that people are simply becoming so exasperated and frustrated in their attempts to make you see sense that they have become short of patience?

You have had two years experience of owning and walking a dog. Believe me, you don't know half as much as you think you do and your posts are fooling nobody.

How come we all care so much more for your bitch's welfare than you appear to do?

Your desire to present yourself as an 'Expert' could cost Millie dearly.


----------



## Guest (Mar 4, 2014)

rona said:


> Hi Prowl
> 
> How does she react when you see other dogs or cats or wildlife?
> 
> ...


We have a pretty good no in place which she is good at even wtihout the gencon.

On a harness she will hang on it which is how she chokes if she spots a cat and is near enough to it. This is whats all ways worried me about a harness though one like the neo or haudini design is probably more ideal for us and could help prevent this with a double clip use.

I all ways give space between us and other dogs and she is fine as long as they don't react to heri f she does react a good leave it and she will leave off. I don't stick around to let her get worked up we move on and everythings fine after that

Parks are still a working progress I have had some very sucessfull visits but they are sometimes stressfull as many owners often have poor control over their off leash dogs this is a trigger for Millie being charged at on a leash is no fun and it should'nt happen in the first place. Its much better now she is an adult most dogs just run passed us and she doesn't care but equally a dog minding its own business near her wont bother her either.

Its short leash when dogs approach and I kneel with her to help her stay calm.


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Prowl said:


> Its not that people are trying persuiad me its the attitude and how this being handled that feels like I'm being attacked how would you feel??
> 
> Some of you take the time to read your own comments as I have especially before posting people need to be more tacticle and less personal when explaining something.
> 
> ...


I did want to stay away from the direct comments toward you Prowl but I really feel I must offer you some advice.

If you don't wish to get into arguments on the forum then don't respond to the posts directed at you.

Many people myself included have posted with examples of the combinations they use. The posts discuss methods of controlling and improving pulling on the lead. Concentrate your replies and discussions on those posts instead of arguing and justifying your current combination.

Use the forum to gain information on the alternatives you are looking for rather than as a battle ground.


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## wannabe dogowner (Feb 24, 2013)

Prowl said:


> We have a pretty good no in place which she is good at even wtihout the gencon.


there is no way on earth I would trust my dogs safety and potentially their life to any command which was a mere 'pretty good' 

Still clearly, you know better than every other poster over the umpteen pages here. Why did you post though? To get people to agree with you and prove you are right? Or to gain information?

Having gained that overwhelmingly negative information, do you intend to do anything with it, or do you STILL know best?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Prowl said:


> people need to be more tacticle


Oh if only...

*goes to sit in the naughty corner*


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2014)

Picklelily said:


> I did want to stay away from the direct comments toward you Prowl but I really feel I must offer you some advice.
> 
> If you don't wish to get into arguments on the forum then don't respond to the posts directed at you.
> 
> ...


See thats whats I am doing but if some mesmbers insist on digging up the past and making personal jabs in a genrally unhelpfull mannor then what point is their in learning from a forum that allows that sort of childish behaviour? Surely it taints the forum and prevents many members from seeking help for fear of being made fun of for asking for help.

I really do respect those who offer advice and their time to explain.

Their has been some great advice offered but how would you feel reading back looking at some comments which are down right unhelpfull and provocative and some of these are long term respected and experienced dog owners who can't do anything better then poke fun at those who are trying to learn

And yes I am trying to learn but how would anyone if people lost their rag every time.

A little respect and understanding goes a long a way when giving advice.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Prowl said:


> See thats whats I am doing but if some mesmbers insist on digging up the past and making personal jabs in a genrally unhelpfull mannor then what point is their in learning from a forum that allows that sort of childish behaviour? Surely it taints the forum and prevents many members from seeking help for fear of being made fun of for asking for help.
> 
> I really do respect those who offer advice and their time to explain.
> 
> ...


Sure. But respect has to be earned.

Are you saying you no longer use the Gencon with a flexi?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Sure. But respect has to be earned.
> 
> ?


It surely does and Prowl has earned mine by taking on board what others have said, checking out if the info is right by emailing the company involved and then asking about harnesses.

What more do you people want?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Prowl said:


> See thats whats I am doing but if some mesmbers insist on digging up the past and making personal jabs in a genrally unhelpfull mannor then what point is their in learning from a forum that allows that sort of childish behaviour? Surely it taints the forum and prevents many members from seeking help for fear of being made fun of for asking for help.
> 
> I really do respect those who offer advice and their time to explain.
> 
> ...


Respect has to work both ways though. You, in turn, have to respect the opinions and advice of those more experienced than yourself. Whether you take that on board is absolutely your choice of course, but those opinions should be respected nonetheless.

People have genuinely tried to help you but have clearly become frustrated with you constantly telling them that they're wrong.


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2014)

Sweety said:


> Respect has to work both ways though. You, in turn, have to respect the opinions and advice of those more experienced than yourself. Whether you take that on board is absolutely your choice of course, but those opinions should be respected nonetheless.
> 
> People have genuinely tried to help you but have clearly become frustrated with you constantly telling them that they're wrong.


Some members have also tried their best to be unhelpfull at the expense of mine and others feelings no winking smilley can protend that.

I have done my best to respect others especially those who are more experienced then I but how can I respect them when they have never shown any to me?

When giving advice it helps to have good forum mannors and while their are a great deal of valuble and experienced members they have a duty to lead by example.

Perhaps if some members were more respectfull when giving advice more would seek it and take it on board. Why do you think this forum has more stalkers then posters? I have seen tones of posts were the members state before they join that have been members for a long time but too scaired to post.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Prowl said:


> Some members have also tried their best to be unhelpfull at the expense of mine and others feelings no winking smilley can protend that.
> 
> I have done my best to respect others especially those who are more experienced then I but how can I respect them when they have never shown any to me?
> 
> ...


You've asked why people don't show you respect.

If I truly felt that many people were showing me no respect, honestly, I would ask myself why.

I don't believe that people do or don't respect you, they don't really know you well enough for that, it's some of your opinions that provoke a negative reaction.

I've never seen you say "In my opinion". You present everything as a fact and then take it personally when some don't agree with you.

Seriously, have a good read back through the whole of this thread and be honest with yourself as to why your attitude rubs some people up the wrong way.

It's good that you're looking into harnesses now. I'm hoping too that you're going to stop using the Flexi/Gencon combination now that you're aware of the risks?


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## Wyrekin (Sep 10, 2012)

I would say Prowl that I think it is great you are looking at alternatives to your current arrangement but I would advise against the Neo harness if Millie is one for backing up. I use an Ezydog quick fit harness that is very similar in design and mine can slip it in a flash, luckily all of them walk nicely in front of me so it is not an issue but it could be for a dog that backs up!

I would however highly recommend the Houdini Ultra harness, my one escape artist has never slipped this and I feel much more confident holding him on it than any other harness other than his Ruffwear webmaster.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

To be fair Prowl did say a few pages back that she was looking for alternatives. 
Which is the main "issue" resolved 

Prowl do you have a double ended lead?
If you do you can use that with your gencon and flat collar without any potential risks until you sort out a good fitting harness and the new head collar (if you decide a new head collar is needed).

If not, you can pick up a cheap halti double ended lead from most places, and they don't break the bank


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2014)

Wyrekin said:


> I would say Prowl that I think it is great you are looking at alternatives to your current arrangement but I would advise against the Neo harness if Millie is one for backing up. I use an Ezydog quick fit harness that is very similar in design and mine can slip it in a flash, luckily all of them walk nicely in front of me so it is not an issue but it could be for a dog that backs up!
> 
> I would however highly recommend the Houdini Ultra harness, my one escape artist has never slipped this and I feel much more confident holding him on it than any other harness other than his Ruffwear webmaster.


Does the ezy dog harness tighten? I thought I heard someone mention it a while back. I think the Haudini Ultra would be more comfortable for her in the long run it would also boost my confidence that she won't back out of it.

I think I have seen ruffwear before I will see if I can find them again to have look thanks :>


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## Wyrekin (Sep 10, 2012)

Prowl said:


> Does the ezy dog harness tighten? I thought I heard someone mention it a while back. I think the Haudini Ultra would be more comfortable for her in the long run it would also boost my confidence that she won't back out of it.
> 
> I think I have seen ruffwear before I will see if I can find them again to have look thanks :>


The ezy dog quick fit tightens on the chest and on the girth but because of the design all the dogs have to do to slip it is drop their heads and back up. I use the Houdini Ultra harness in summer and the Ruffwear webmaster in winter. I really like the handle on the Ruffwear as it gives me something to get hold of it Scooby decides he's going to eat someone but it is just as easy to grab the back strap of the Houdini Ultra I just can't pick him up by it!

Here is a side view of the Houdini Ultra -










And here is a photo of (a much younger Scooby) wearing the Ruffwear Webmaster -


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

The ezydog is excellent, they are prone to wearing through but they are easily tightened with buckles around the chest.

I hope the email from Gencon was useful Prowl?

http://www.ezydog.co.uk/quick-fit-harness/?revpage=4


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## Wyrekin (Sep 10, 2012)

Oh and this is Scooby in his Ezy dog quick fit -


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2014)

StormyThai said:


> To be fair Prowl did say a few pages back that she was looking for alternatives.
> Which is the main "issue" resolved
> 
> Prowl do you have a double ended lead?
> ...


I have an all in one gencon its a lead with a figure of 8 finnished one end and a clip and loop at the other to be used as an audinary leash or you can clip this to a collar or harness but its more troublesome as it twists a lot and restricts.

Double ended leash sounds handy I saw one for the first time comming home on the buss it was attatched to a harness and the collar.

Thank you wyrekin

The easy quick fit looks like it suggests and looks very comfortable but the haudini harness would make our walks feel more secure we walk near roads a lot.

Mollysmith they weren't much I quoted the email a while back while they didn't recomend the combo they also praised my ability to use it o.0'''


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Prowl said:


> I think I have seen ruffwear before I will see if I can find them again to have look thanks :>


They fit like this:



Sorry for the hanging straps I must have been mid - adjust as you can tuck them in neatly!!!



ETA Wyrekin beat me whilst I was looking for a photo - sorry!!!


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

If you're looking for a really good and strong double ended lead, I recommend the Ezydog Vario 6.

I know it can be nerve wracking when one changes equipment, but I suspect you might be more relaxed as you'll know when using the right harness that your girl's neck can't get damaged


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## Wyrekin (Sep 10, 2012)

Dogless said:


> They fit like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah but we still need to see photos of your gorgeous pair :001_wub:


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## Wyrekin (Sep 10, 2012)

Prowl said:


> Thank you wyrekin
> 
> The easy quick fit looks like it suggests and looks very comfortable but the haudini harness would make our walks feel more secure we walk near roads a lot.


Scooby seems comfortable in both but then he is a tart and enjoys wearing anything! His favourite game is dress up!

I am much happier with him in the Houdini ultra just because I know for sure he cannot slip it.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Just thought I would note that mine have never backed out of their Neo's. Not that they try but they do dig in their heels to sniff something and I do pull them away - they've never slipped out of their harnesses. 

But having recently bought Ludi one and then him kicking off, spinning, backing up etc - the Houdini Ultra is probably the way to go.


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## Wyrekin (Sep 10, 2012)

SLB said:


> Just thought I would note that mine have never backed out of their Neo's. Not that they try but they do dig in their heels to sniff something and I do pull them away - they've never slipped out of their harnesses.
> 
> But having recently bought Ludi one and then him kicking off, spinning, backing up etc - the Houdini Ultra is probably the way to go.


I think that's the thing, mine don't slip out unless they really want to and then they are out in no time at all. The first time Scooby did it he took me by complete surprise since he'd being using it fine for several weeks, then one day he insisted on sniffing a certain patch of grass and suddenly there he was offlead!


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Prowl said:


> I have an all in one gencon its a lead with a figure of 8 finnished one end and a clip and loop at the other to be used as an audinary leash or you can clip this to a collar or harness but its more troublesome as it twists a lot and restricts.
> 
> Double ended leash sounds handy I saw one for the first time comming home on the buss it was attatched to a harness and the collar.
> 
> ...


Hmm they were rather astonished and appalled this morning and were going to update their info. We shall see.

I hope you find a safe harness.


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2014)

MollySmith said:


> Hmm they were rather astonished and appalled this morning and were going to update their info. We shall see.
> 
> I hope you find a safe harness.


I did ask them if they could confirm the opinion that using a flexi and a gencon could be fatal and they completely ignored my question.

You would think that a popular head collar would have a warning about flexis in place since so many people use them.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Prowl said:


> You would think that a popular head collar would have a warning about flexis in place since so many people use them.


They are there to sell their product and as there are no safety regulations regarding pet items then they have no obligation to warn about anything.

Check chains or prong collars shouldn't be used with a flexi or long line but I doubt you will find a safety warning on any sites selling them.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Prowl said:


> I did ask them if they could confirm the opinion that using a flexi and a gencon could be fatal and they completely ignored my question.


I don't think they ignored it at all.... but couched it rather diplomatically in their reply, which you posted earlier:



> "Using a flexi lead is ultimately the choice of the dog owner.
> *We do not recommend their use due to the risk of sudden jerking.*
> I am glad you have found the Gencon so effective.
> If you have any questions we are only too delighted to put them to our panel of expert Trainers / Behaviourists."


As a company they need to cover themselves, and advising you in those terms is about the best they can do, legally.

I am also puzzled as I can't actually see them praising you for your ability to use the Gencon, as you said earlier?  All they said was that they are pleased the product works for you.


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

Wyrekin said:


> Scooby seems comfortable in both but then he is a tart and enjoys wearing anything! His favourite game is dress up!
> 
> I am much happier with him in the Houdini ultra just because I know for sure he cannot slip it.


Front straps are padded and the middle is (or can be!) well away from the armpits too, which I like 
All hail the houdini ultra!


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Sorry to dig this back up from last night but this one sentence really resonated with me.....



Prowl said:


> Its only likely happen if the dog suddenly charges at *break neck speed* to the end they could cause real damage.


Break neck speed - please have a think about HOW that saying may have come about! You have said it yourself!!

I am glad you are looking into alternatives and I hope you find a harness to suit your dog. The email from Gencon does not sound at all like they are condoning your use of a flexi and headcollar, they have said they DON'T recommend it


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Prowl said:


> I have an all in one gencon its a lead with a figure of 8 finnished one end and a clip and loop at the other to be used as an audinary leash or you can clip this to a collar or harness but its more troublesome as it twists a lot and restricts.
> 
> Double ended leash sounds handy I saw one for the first time comming home on the buss it was attatched to a harness and the collar.
> 
> ...


Oh no. Prowl, I don't know whether you've misunderstood the email, but it's important you don't misinterpret it, as the last line of your above post.

They did say they didn't recommend the use of a Flexi with the Gencon.

They didn't praise your ability to use the combination, they said they were pleased you had had good results with the Headcollar. At no point did they approve the use of the Flexi lead with it.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

A further update: I queried your email with Gencon, Prowl, as it concerned me that much.

This is what I got back from them.

*"We do not advocate the use of flexi leads with our Gencon Headcollars due to the potential risk of harm to the dog."*

I hope that this brings an end to this debate and that you have understood clearly.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> A further update: I queried your email with Gencon, Prowl, as it concerned me that much.
> 
> This is what I got back from them.
> 
> ...


Interesting.

PROWL......? Any thoughts?


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2014)

I suppose I can't ignore that can I?

I honestly have never seen a single warning about flexis and head collars even on Indi Dogs website their is no warning about the use. It should be standered that head collars advise what type of leash to use because I would say large chunk of dog owners use flexi's all the time. Its just what I see and I suppose it can differ to different parts of the country and the world were flexis may not be needed.

I have seen other owners using flexi and head collars but I don't anymore I have a standered leather leash and will be getting a fitted harness for Millie when I get back from holiday.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Prowl said:


> *I suppose I can't ignore that can I?*
> 
> *Why would you want to ignore it....? *
> 
> ...


I do agree that all the headcollar companies should have very clear warnings on their sites and packets.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Prowl said:


> I suppose I can't ignore that can I?
> 
> I honestly have never seen a single warning about flexis and head collars even on Indi Dogs website their is no warning about the use. It should be standered that head collars advise what type of leash to use because I would say large chunk of dog owners use flexi's all the time. Its just what I see and I suppose it can differ to different parts of the country and the world were flexis may not be needed.
> 
> I have seen other owners using flexi and head collars but I don't anymore I have a standered leather leash and will be getting a fitted harness for Millie when I get back from holiday.


I can't give you another rep but I would if I could

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

So so pleased you have taken notice of this point. 
I hate it when people ram their opinions down peoples throats but in this instance it may save your dog a lot of pain in the future 

I can't praise you enough for weighing it up and, under unpleasant intense pressure, putting your dogs wellbeing first


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

MollySmith said:


> A further update: I queried your email with Gencon, Prowl, as it concerned me that much.
> 
> This is what I got back from them.
> 
> ...


Do you think they're getting annoyed?


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Well done Prowl.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Gemmaa said:


> Do you think they're getting annoyed?


I think I am!



MollySmith said:


> It is all about you isn't it? Like I've said before, I don't care much about what you think but I am concerned - as we all are - about Millie. The incident with the harness, where you lacked the common sense to understand that harnesses come in different sizes and need to be adjusted makes me think how on earth are you able to get a gencon right. You appear to be blaming the harness for causing Millie to get scared when the responsibility is on you to fit it correctly and train appropriately. A poor workman blames his tools....
> 
> And just to advise you that I have had a reply from Gencon this morning in which they say they state 'our headcollar should not be used with a flexi lead'. They seem rather appalled that anyone would think this when the advice on how to use a headcollar is common place but I have asked them if they would consider updating their website, instructions on reprint and share this on social media. They also suggest that if the user is in any doubt to contact a qualified trainer. Prowl - you have had lots of free advice from qualified trainers on here. I suggest for the millionth time you listen to it. And the advice of the manufacturer too.


I actually told Prowl about the first message two days ago This is the second response from them :frown2:


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2014)

MollySmith said:


> I think I am!
> 
> I actually told Prowl about the first message two days ago This is the second response from them :frown2:


It depends how something is writtern the second email is more thorough in their attempts to say they don't approve but their very clever to choose words that say they do not recomend incase lots of flexi users like myself come back to them and complain. Their covering themselves.

Their website says any leash - if your every day leash was a flexi and you thought nothing of it it would be your choice to use.

If a group of people put you under pressure to make a decission you would have to look into it before choosing what was the best of course of action.

If a group of people told you, you had to get your dog neutered you would go and do your research before comming to the right decission.

Once members had camed down and stopped over reacting I was able to make the right choice.

No company to my knowledge has warnings on head collars about the use of flexi's and I have seen a few owners useing this combo and of course used it myself so didn't think anything of it.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Prowl said:


> Their website says any leash - if your every day leash was a flexi and you thought nothing of it it would be your choice to use.





> No company to my knowledge has warnings on head collars about the use of flexi's and I have seen a few owners useing this combo and of course used it myself so didn't think anything of it.


Well I suppose it is true that there's nothing common about common sense :frown2:

Why should everything have to come with a warning to prevent stupid people from doing stupid things?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Prowl said:


> It depends how something is writtern the second email is more thorough in their attempts to say they don't approve but their very clever to choose words that say they do not recomend incase lots of flexi users like myself come back to them and complain. Their covering themselves.
> 
> Their website says any leash - if your every day leash was a flexi and you thought nothing of it it would be your choice to use.
> 
> ...


You may have hit on a problem that needs addressing here tbh 
After seeing your above post I had a bit of a look see and spotted that one company has a picture of a customer using a flexi with the head collar 

I have sent them an email trying to point out that the picture probably isn't the best one to use to promote their product. I find it astounding that the warnings aren't there...but then without regulations to tell companies that they have too why would companies cut off a part or the market


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2014)

StormyThai said:


> You may have hit on a problem that needs addressing here tbh
> After seeing your above post I had a bit of a look see and spotted that one company has a picture of a customer using a flexi with the head collar
> 
> I have sent them an email trying to point out that the picture probably isn't the best one to use to promote their product. I find it astounding that the warnings aren't there...but then without regulations to tell companies that they have too why would companies cut off a part or the market


A large part of its market considering how many owners use flexis you would think that would be the first thing would put on their website. But even then it probably would not stop everyone.

I have never seen a single warning anywere saying not to. Smoking comes with images to put people off it suprises me that headcollar makers would not put suitable warnings in place.

I find these companies are never transparant in what they see leading to suggestion rather then making a point to say do not use. What if a person had learning difficulties?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Prowl said:


> A large part of its market considering how many owners use flexis you would think that would be the first thing would put on their website. But even then it probably would not stop everyone.
> 
> *I have never seen a single warning anywere saying not to. Smoking comes with images to put people off it suprises me that headcollar makers would not put suitable warnings in place. *
> 
> I find these companies are never transparant in what they see leading to suggestion rather then making a point to say do not use. What if a person had learning difficulties?


There is a law in place that means tobacco companies HAVE to warn about the risk, if they didn't have to then they wouldn't.


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## zedder (Aug 21, 2013)

in the end you have too use a bit of common sense obviously if it secured round the dogs gob he bolts its gonna snap his bloody head off.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

I honestly think putting a warning against flexi leads on headcollars is a bit like putting 'warning - contains nuts' on a packet of peanuts..... obviously there must have been a need to warn someone of this at some point otherwise it wouldn't be there, but it does make you wonder what sort of person actually needs to be told of the danger.......... lol


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Tigerneko said:


> I honestly think putting a warning against flexi leads on headcollars is a bit like putting 'warning - contains nuts' on a packet of peanuts..... obviously there must have been a need to warn someone of this at some point otherwise it wouldn't be there, but it does make you wonder what sort of person actually needs to be told of the danger.......... lol


I don't think it helps that one company is using a picture of someone combining their head collar with a flexi 

All it would take is for someone to use that picture as the justification they feel they need and then you have a right battle on your hands trying to bring some common sense to the mix.

We shouldn't need warning signs everywhere, but with the nanny state that we live in many people seem to have forgotten to use that brain they were given at birth and prefer to lay any potential "fault" at someone elses door :nonod:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Tigerneko said:


> I honestly think putting a warning against flexi leads on headcollars is a bit like putting 'warning - contains nuts' on a packet of peanuts..... obviously there must have been a need to warn someone of this at some point otherwise it wouldn't be there, but it does make you wonder what sort of person actually needs to be told of the danger.......... lol


Perhaps they should put "warning - can prevent conception" on packets of condoms! Really, you should not need to put warnings on stuff when it is common sense, but so few people seem to have that commodity.

I like it when you get a piece of clothing that is black and white and it says: 'wash dark colours separately'.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

My head hurts from banging against a brick wall like this :mad2: Oops I just did it again :mad2:

Whatever happened to taking responsibility for our own actions eh?


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

Tigerneko said:


> I honestly think putting a warning against flexi leads on headcollars is a bit like putting 'warning - contains nuts' on a packet of peanuts..... obviously there must have been a need to warn someone of this at some point otherwise it wouldn't be there, but it does make you wonder what sort of person actually needs to be told of the danger.......... lol


But peanuts aren't nuts, they're a bean!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Perhaps they should put "warning - can prevent conception" on packets of condoms! Really, you should not need to put warnings on stuff when it is common sense, but so few people seem to have that commodity.
> 
> I like it when you get a piece of clothing that is black and white and it says: 'wash dark colours separately'.


Lol, not seen that one yet. I have had "do not iron clothes on body" though. And "DO NOT EAT!" printed on the lid of a medicine bottle.


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

I love the "may cause drowsiness" warning on a packet of sleeping tablets I had once.

I can highly recommend the Webmaster harness if you're concerned about the dog escaping. The way it's designed (with the belly strap) makes it pretty much impossible to escape from as long as your dog's chest is bigger than it's stomach.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Coffee said:


> I love the "may cause drowsiness" warning on a packet of sleeping tablets I had once.


Lol, the sleeping tablets I've been prescribed come with that same warning. I'm like "no sh*t sherlock!"


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2014)

Thanks to those who have helped 

I would like an mod to close this thread as its being trolled by unhelpfull comments.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Prowl said:


> Thanks to those who have helped
> 
> I would like an mod to close this thread as its being trolled by unhelpfull comments.


Actually many of us tried to help you and your dog, why do you think the thread runs to 20 pages?! What, you think we don't have better things to do with our time than practically PLEAD with you to reconsider the flexi/headcollar combo?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Prowl said:


> Thanks to those who have helped
> 
> I would like an mod to close this thread as its being trolled by unhelpfull comments.


Oh? Do you mean that some people have actually had the audacity to tell the truth?

You've had an abundance of help and advice on this thread. You really don't have anything to complain about. I think people have shown a lot of patience, all things considered.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Prowl said:


> Thanks to those who have helped
> 
> I would like an mod to close this thread as its being trolled by unhelpfull comments.


Oh crikey! 

An English degree and I never realised that troll is (noun) a person or group of persons who take time from walking their dogs with care and lend their experience to someone who unwisely uses the wrong equipment thus endangering their dog's life yet doesn't show gratitude. Or is that the wrong way round?

And there was me thinking that a massive thank you was in order to the numerous PF'ers who have been so kind to Millie. Oh and actually to Gencon for putting up with the emails from at least two of us on here and taking the time to read this thread. You really are quite something Prowl, I think I am now finally rendered speechless you'll be pleased to know.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

MollySmith said:


> Oh crikey!
> 
> An English degree and I never realised that troll is (noun) a person or group of persons who take time from walking their dogs with care and lend their experience to someone who unwisely uses the wrong equipment thus endangering their dog's life yet doesn't show gratitude. Or is that the wrong way round?
> 
> And there was me thinking that a massive thank you was in order to the numerous PF'ers who have been so kind to Millie. Oh and actually to Gencon for putting up with the emails from at least two of us on here and taking the time to read this thread. You really are quite something Prowl, I think I am now finally rendered speechless you'll be pleased to know.


I used to have a neighbour who never wore a seatbelt, sat her young baby on her lap in the front of the car and when asked how she would prevent her going through the windscreen in a collision, always said "I'll hang on to her". She also cooked frozen chickens from frozen without thawing them out. Well they'd been all right so far and all the scientific proof was wrong, and she was right. That is exactly what this thread is like. I give up:mad2:


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Can it not be moved or mod edited until I've read it or I'll have to open all the bliddy pages in separate tabs :lol: :lol:


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> Oh crikey!
> 
> An English degree and I never realised that troll is (noun) a person or group of persons who take time from walking their dogs with care and lend their experience to someone who unwisely uses the wrong equipment thus endangering their dog's life yet doesn't show gratitude. Or is that the wrong way round?
> 
> And there was me thinking that a massive thank you was in order to the numerous PF'ers who have been so kind to Millie. Oh and actually to Gencon for putting up with the emails from at least two of us on here and taking the time to read this thread. You really are quite something Prowl, I think I am now finally rendered speechless you'll be pleased to know.


Rep coming your way if PF lets me, it didn't last time!

edited to add:

Nope, apparently I still have to 'spread' the rep around!


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Read the first few pages and saw where it was going.

Those people are NOT trolls :lol:

As someone else said; there are people on here who are (to quote their phrase, and sorry I can't remember who it was  ) not 'mere dog owners'; they've helped me sort out Bumbles stomach problems more than the vets.

Sorry if this has been mentioned after the first few pages but, personally, I'd never use a flexi lead; it goes through me, especially by a main road and in an open space I can't always tell if a dog is on lead or not and thus in (rarely as it's almost hard wired in his brain) a few instances he's run up to an on-lead dog.

Also, the combination you're using doesn't sound right in any way at all.

The purpose of a forum is to learn, get new eyes on a matter and perhaps think differently; if you just want everyone to agree or give you the same advice you may as well talk to yourself


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Flamingoes said:


> Read the first few pages and saw where it was going.
> 
> Those people are NOT trolls :lol:
> 
> ...


I had a Jack Russell under my wheels with a flexi lead still being held by his dopey owner.


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