# Can there be more than one runt in a litter?



## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Just worries me how alarming slow Io is growing. She is 4 months old on Sunday and is more than half the size she should be.

When I collected her, there was a runt which was even smaller than her, but the litter was so huge (13), all the boys were a good size but all the girls were so teeny 

Her paws are growing but the rest doesn't seem to want to catch up yet :blink:


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## Guest (Oct 31, 2013)

Have you voiced your concerns to a vet?

What sort of breeder was she from? Have you spoken to the breeder?

There's nothing wrong with being small ( Kenzie is) but if she's half the size she should be I think I'd want to look into it.


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## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

Do you trust the breeder you got her from?
If not... is there any chance they might have lied about her age? Or even lied about her breed and she's a rottie x with something smaller?
Don't want to worry you or anything, that's just what came to mind!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I'm sure I'm going to upset and offend here, and if I do it's not my intention honestly 

I think it's more down to the breeding lines, I honestly think that while your Io's parents might look like full Rottweilers, I think given her size, shape and other facts I don't believe the lines are full Rottweiler sorry, the problem with not getting a pedigree dog with papers from a ethical breeders , is you have nothing to compare too, you don't know what's in the lines and you don't know what your going to get, so while you might have a dog of Rottweiler sorts, you don't know what your baby is going to end up like. I don't think there is anything wrong with Io's growth rate, she is going to be small, but she's fit and health and you love her so that's the main thing.

If your really unhappy and think it is an development issue I'd take her to the vets, being the "runt" is also no indication of the out come of the pup either, Cian's sister Norma was born dead, and was brought back to life, all through her puppy hood they gave her extra help and care, if she was with the other 8 pups now you would never have guessed she was the "runt".


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

I was wondering whether Io was a full rottie or wondered if she was younger than you had been told - by her eye colouration and skeletal development initially. Is there a chance that more than one litter was passed off as one litter and some pups were younger than others?

What matters is that she is healthy and developing well now - she is very sweet and very pretty so I'd just enjoy her for the small girl she is.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Meezey said:


> I'm sure I'm going to upset and offend here, and if I do it's not my intention honestly
> 
> I think it's more down to the breeding lines, I honestly think that while your Io's parents might look like full Rottweilers, I think given her size, shape and other facts I don't believe the lines are full Rottweiler sorry, the problem with not getting a pedigree dog with papers from a ethical breeders , is you have nothing to compare too, you don't know what's in the lines and you don't know what your going to get, so while you might have a dog of Rottweiler sorts, you don't know what your baby is going to end up like. I don't think there is anything wrong with Io's growth rate, she is going to be small, but she's fit and health and you love her so that's the main thing.
> 
> If your really unhappy and think it is an development issue I'd take her to the vets, being the "runt" is also no indication of the out come of the pup either, Cian's sister Norma was born dead, and was brought back to life, all through her puppy hood they gave her extra help and care, if she was with the other 8 pups now you would never have guessed she was the "runt".


I'm on the same page, honestly and I also mean no offence she doesn't look all rottie 

























Top 2 are 4 months and bottom one is 5

compared to Io


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## LolaBoo (May 31, 2011)

Ive never really compared Io with any other Rottie but looking at the pictures just put on her muzzle dosnt look as wide her face is actual quite narrow


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

I actually, until this thread, hadn't really seen pics of Io except on your sig... but I have to say that I agree with those saying she doesn't look full rottweiler... I looked back a thread with pics from two weeks ago, and she does look small...



Meezey said:


> If your really unhappy and think it is an development issue I'd take her to the vets, being the "runt" is also no indication of the out come of the pup either, Cian's sister Norma was born dead, and was brought back to life, all through her puppy hood they gave her extra help and care, if she was with the other 8 pups now you would never have guessed she was the "runt".


Oh, I LOVE that a rottie is called Norma! My grans name was Norma so it reminds me a little old lady... although, a very fiesty old lady


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

lozzibear said:


> I actually, until this thread, hadn't really seen pics of Io except on your sig... but I have to say that I agree with those saying she doesn't look full rottweiler... I looked back a thread with pics from two weeks ago, and she does look small...
> 
> Oh, I LOVE that a rottie is called Norma! My grans name was Norma so it reminds me a little old lady... although, a very fiesty old lady


Do you know what's even odder  They are the memorial litter so they are all named after people how have passed, Norma is name after her owners Gran  So he KC name is Norma Mae  I love it too


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## littleangel01 (Jul 3, 2011)

i have to admit iv wanted to ask once or twice if shes full rottie but didnt want to upset anyone if i was wrong  

saying that there are so many being bred at the moment at least in my area and they all seem to be diffrent sizes. my male a few years ago was massive taller and chuncker then most but iv also seen some smaller ones that are tiny and thin. 

guess it depends on the breeders the dogs - parents grandparents ect - wether she is just small or if a cross. 

shes cute tho  love her ears.


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

Meezey said:


> Do you know what's even odder  They are the memorial litter so they are all named after people how have passed, Norma is name after her owners Gran  So he KC name is Norma Mae  I love it too


Oooo, that is odd! That is such a lovely idea to have a memorial litter


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

I feel sad now  just one of them days :crying: ill reply properly later.
You didn't have to post a photo of her though :crying:


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Hanwombat said:


> I feel sad now  just one of them days :crying: ill reply properly later.
> You did have to post a photo of her though :crying:


Don't feel sad; Io is beautiful and you adore each other.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Hanwombat said:


> I feel sad now  just one of them days :crying: ill reply properly later.
> You did have to post a photo of her though :crying:


There is nothing to be sad about you have a beautiful girlie who's sometimes a bit naughty, who's fun, who does well at obedience who you love, she's fit and health and very well cared for, there is nothing to be sad for she's your baby..


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Dogless said:


> Don't feel sad; Io is beautiful and you adore each other.


I'll be okay - just having one of those hormonal emotional days and this thread has upset me :crying: I don't even know why either

I'll be alright in a bit and will reply with I don't really care how she looks, I love her all the same


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

I wouldn't worry, Alfie was a small puppy, he was mistaken for a sheltie.

I don't know about where you got her, but there are different 'types' of all breeds, so she may be small, but some breeders breed smaller in the type.

If you are worried she isn't growing then maybe a vet check, but if they think she is healthy, she may be a slow starter, some are but end up pretty big.


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## LolaBoo (May 31, 2011)

Hanwombat said:


> I feel sad now  just one of them days :crying: ill reply properly later.
> You didn't have to post a photo of her though :crying:


She is a gorgeous girl no matter, so dont be sad i could just squidge her shes so darn cute


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Hanwombat said:


> I'll be okay - just having one of those hormonal emotional days and this thread has upset me :crying: I don't even know why either
> 
> I'll be alright in a bit and will reply with I don't really care how she looks, I love her all the same


There's a few Rotties round here that look more like black and tan labs, KC registered as well - that's why I looked harder for a breeder and looked how well that turned out, rofl.

The only thing I would worry about is if you met both parents and she's tiny when they both looked fine that there could be a health issue.

Other than that...well, she's still lovely


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Sorry as I say I've had a funny emotional day today, had to go home from work 

I always knew she didn't really look full rottie but I just loved her from when I saw her.

Saw both parents and they looked typical rottweiler but not kc reg.

I know I may kick myself at some point for not getting kc reg but none of my labs were.

I guess it will be intriging to see what she will look like when shes older, her paws are big and her chest is broad.

I love her all the same, I'm not worried about her health as she has a grwat appetite etc, just when I saw the litter the boys looked just like rotties - big fluffy things and the girls were all little things.

Obviously I'll love her all the same, perhaps in a few years I'll look to get a kc reg rottie. But again, who knows what she will grow to look like 

Thanks for the input.

Also her heel work is still going very nicely


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

This is the first time I have seen a photo of your dog and she is definitely either not a Rottweiler or, if she is, she is an extremely poor example of the breed.

If you love her for what she is, then nothing else matters except your relationship.

One of the consequences of not purchasing a puppy from a reputable, known breeder and getting advice from the breed club(s).


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Io may not be all rottie but she's all adorable 

Instead you can have fun guessing as she grows older what else she might be :thumbsup:

and hey, might be another pocket rottie like Milliepooch's millie  not all rottie but looks like a mini rottie. :thumbsup:


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## Lizz1155 (Jun 16, 2013)

Hanwombat said:


> Just worries me how alarming slow Io is growing. She is 4 months old on Sunday and is more than half the size she should be.
> 
> When I collected her, there was a runt which was even smaller than her, but the litter was so huge (13), all the boys were a good size but all the girls were so teeny
> 
> Her paws are growing but the rest doesn't seem to want to catch up yet :blink:


Has she started to lose any of her baby teeth yet? That's meant to begin around 4 months.

To be honest, I'm slightly curious that you mentioned all the girls in the litter were much smaller than the boys. (I'm assuming it wasn't 2 combined litters, since according to Google rottweilers are known for having large litters...) Depending on the number of girls in the litter, this could just be coincidence...however to me it would hint that there's something genetic going on. Are you in contact with any of the other people who got puppies from this litter?


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

There is no legitimate reason for a breeder not to KC register a pedigree litter so that's another indication that Io is not a pedigree Rottie. I wonder whether she could have Dobe in her somewhere along the line. 

Anyway, as everyone has said, now she's yours, and as long as she's healthy and happy, that's all that matters. 

She's a lovely girl, and I look forward to seeing more pics as she grows.


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## Ann Elizabeth (May 12, 2013)

Sorry you're having a rubbish day, hope you feel better soon, I have no idea whether Io is a pedigree or a cross, and tbh as long as she loves you and you love her???? 
As everyone probably knows my girl Lily had her first (& my first) Litter in May, I kept one of the pups and chose the smallest, the calmest etc etc... Pups are now nearly 6 months old Shoki is no longer smallest, calmest, most timid etc. Yet I've got her sister staying with me at the moment (lily had two girls) because all signs indicate she is about to start her first heat and her owners have an intact dog, (too early/late to spay her) Shoki is now more typical of her breed - ESS - but is showing no sign/symptom of being close to her first season, for me it is intriguing as I have regular contact with all owners of pups and recognise now that they are all developing at different rates, in different ways and am confused to some extent why GG is so leggy when compared to her sire/dam/littermates.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Lizz1155 said:


> Has she started to lose any of her baby teeth yet? That's meant to begin around 4 months.
> 
> To be honest, I'm slightly curious that you mentioned all the girls in the litter were much smaller than the boys. (I'm assuming it wasn't 2 combined litters, since according to Google rottweilers are known for having large litters...) Depending on the number of girls in the litter, this could just be coincidence...however to me it would hint that there's something genetic going on. Are you in contact with any of the other people who got puppies from this litter?


Dual sired litter is also a possibility.
It's not something all breeders think about, or even know can happen. Experienced breeders will keep their girl under close care after mating, but it's possible that less knowledgeable breeders allowed another male to tie with her either before or afterwards, maybe through mismanagement or ignorance.


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## LolaBoo (May 31, 2011)

Our Apple is what we call " A what if " as in what if shes this what if shes that lol


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

I'm not in contact with any of the other people who got puppies.

She hasn't started teething yet but she is to reach 16 weeks this Sunday so hopefully she will be soon.

I kinda hope she grows up to look a bit like Millie as she is one of my favourites on here! She sure has similar ears to hers :drool:


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Whether she is a full rottie or not we love our dogs for who they are not their papers  

I never noticed till it was mentioned but they aren't a breed I'm familiar with. Although looking at her ears I do see JRT. 

We don't have papers for Blade , his parents had KC papers which we saw but he isn't registered. I don't particularly care about it either I love him all the same and he's handsome to me. 

We will however be buying from more responsible breeders next time :yesnod:


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> Whether she is a full rottie or not we love our dogs for who they are not their papers
> 
> I never noticed till it was mentioned but they aren't a breed I'm familiar with. Although looking at her ears I do see JRT.
> 
> ...


I hope she doesn't grow to look too terrier-like  but I am hoping she will make a medium size dog as her paws are big - though obviously I will love her all the same 

As will I. I wouldn't even want to think about getting another dog until Io is at least 2 or more.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Hanwombat said:


> I hope she doesn't grow to look more terrier as terrier is something I don't want - though obviously I will love her all the same
> 
> As will I. I wouldn't even want to think about getting another dog until Io is at least 2 or more.


I wouldn't worry about there being terrier or any other breed in there now you have her. Io is doing really well at training and sounds keen to learn; no point in skewing your perception of her in terms of behaviour, just wait and see what traits she develops naturally.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

We had a rottie many years ago. Went to a garden centre to buy plants and the owners had a litter of pups. We knew them well, not really as friends then but we knew them.They became freinds afterwards.

Anyway, they had a litter of 9 pups and the last one was a runt.and looked very small next to the pup they were keeping back.also, the runt had a curly coat.

Nobody wanted her and she was getting on for 5 months old.He gave her to us....so really she was worthless.

I loved that dog, she was just amazing and we had 9 fab years with her.and what she didn't have in size, she more than made up for with character.

She remained small and always had a ripple down her back in her coat but she was so agile and so fit.could have taught her anything.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Dogless said:


> I wouldn't worry about there being terrier or any other breed in there now you have her. Io is doing really well at training and sounds keen to learn; no point in skewing your perception of her in terms of behaviour, just wait and see what traits she develops naturally.


Yes she is doing very well in her training luckily, she isn't the best puppy at home currently for her naughty antics, but she makes up for it with her training at puppy classes as well as out for walks. :thumbsup:


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

lilythepink said:


> We had a rottie many years ago. Went to a garden centre to buy plants and the owners had a litter of pups. We knew them well, not really as friends then but we knew them.They became freinds afterwards.
> 
> Anyway, they had a litter of 9 pups and the last one was a runt.and looked very small next to the pup they were keeping back.also, the runt had a curly coat.
> 
> ...


Aw do you have a pic?


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## Mumtomaddog (Sep 17, 2013)

Only just getting to this thread now. 

As others have said, it's how you feel about her that matters and that she's happy and healthy. 

She's such a pretty little girl. 

I can understand your disappointment (if thats the right word) at having paid for what you think is a full breed and (if) it turning out not to be, i would be mad as hell, BUT if it doesnt matter too much , not wanting for showing or breeding, i would just enjoy her. 

My poor Max is a cross, of course i knew that anyway, but i love him to bits. I know you love Io too, and that's the important factor...


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Mumtomaddog said:


> Only just getting to this thread now.
> 
> As others have said, it's how you feel about her that matters and that she's happy and healthy.
> 
> ...


Deep down I knew she wasn't full rottweiler, more rottie x. I guess I am a little disappointed but obviously its my fault for not going to a KC reg breeder, I won't see her differently though, its not her fault after all and she is far too cute!! :001_tt1:

Perhaps in a few years time I will get a rottie from a kc reg breeder and I'll have little and large 

I'd love to look into doing agility with her when she is older, I think she would really enjoy this


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

I have had inlklings when looking at pictures of IO, to me its her muzzle. Its quite narrow if that make sense but to be honest does it matter if she isnt a full Rottie?

It doesnt change her personality  

She is here now and loved which is what matters :thumbsup:

Millie was originally sold to her first home for £600 as a Dobermann.  

She was then passed onto another family who rehomed her to me at 10 months old - advertised as a Dobermann.

The man was convinced she was a Dobermann although he kept saying 'But she is a small Dobe'! and that 'she will grow'   

From the age of 10 months Millie never grew upwards but just filled out to be chunkier 

You know what they say - Good things come in small packages :thumbsup: 

And keep those photos of IO coming as she is boooootiful! :001_wub:


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## Mumtomaddog (Sep 17, 2013)

Think it was ellenlouisepascoe that said, "we love them for who they are not their papers" and that totally true.
Its lovely seeing the pics and reading about her in training, she's doing well, and you're doing a great job 

A little and large would be cute!


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Hanwombat said:


> Aw do you have a pic?


we got the dog in 1986 before digital cameras.sorry. She was an amazing dog...so good, I wouldn't have another Rottie after she went cos nothing could have matched her.....and she was the puppy nobody wanted.

And, funny thing too.she was so easy to train in anything and people came to the house and I lost count of how many said."If ever you want to get rid of that dog..........."

Even had my mother in law trying to tell me these are devil dogs and not safe with children.so my brother in law would take her.save my kids faces...such a loyal girl, would never have won any prizes at a dog show I am sure.


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## Tacey (Mar 4, 2012)

I think she is gorgeous just the way she is :001_wub:


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Milliepoochie said:


> I have had inlklings when looking at pictures of IO, to me its her muzzle. Its quite narrow if that make sense but to be honest does it matter if she isnt a full Rottie?
> 
> It doesnt change her personality
> 
> ...


Millie is one of my faves on here! Such a gorgeous girly. I never would have put her a dobermann though  



Mumtomaddog said:


> Think it was ellenlouisepascoe that said, "we love them for who they are not their papers" and that totally true.
> Its lovely seeing the pics and reading about her in training, she's doing well, and you're doing a great job
> 
> A little and large would be cute!


A little and large would be cute  I don't think the OH would be impressed though 



lilythepink said:


> we got the dog in 1986 before digital cameras.sorry. She was an amazing dog...so good, I wouldn't have another Rottie after she went cos nothing could have matched her.....and she was the puppy nobody wanted.
> 
> And, funny thing too.she was so easy to train in anything and people came to the house and I lost count of how many said."If ever you want to get rid of that dog..........."
> 
> Even had my mother in law trying to tell me these are devil dogs and not safe with children.so my brother in law would take her.save my kids faces...such a loyal girl, would never have won any prizes at a dog show I am sure.


Io is a fast quick learner which is great. She isn't the quickest at learning to keep off the bed or the sofa  but when she is outside she is very good. She was even dropping things the other day whilst out on our walk :yikes: She was picking up bits of twig, leaves, etc and she actually dropped it when U told her too :yikes: Her distractions with other dogs are coming along good too, obviously I want her to interact with dogs, but when I am walking her on the pavements I want her to concentrate on me. I have a real challenge yesterday though, a real yappy dog was going to town barking at her  Luckily I managed to get her back to listening to me again


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Mumtomaddog said:


> Think it was ellenlouisepascoe that said, "we love them for who they are not their papers" and that totally true.
> Its lovely seeing the pics and reading about her in training, she's doing well, and you're doing a great job
> 
> A little and large would be cute!


I will just say - Of course this is true.

Paperwork does not effect how much you love you dog or how clever / how much your dog can achieve but I do not agree with it in the sense that paperwork isnt important.

I think thread ssuch as this are one of the reasons why paperwork and knowledge on lines and a good relationshoip with the breeder IS so important.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Milliepoochie said:


> I will just say - Of course this is true.
> 
> Paperwork does not effect how much you love you dog or how clever / how much your dog can achieve but I do not agree with it in the sense that paperwork isnt important.
> 
> I think thread ssuch as this are one of the reasons why paperwork and knowledge on lines and a good relationshoip with the breeder IS so important.


Very true, hopefully people reading this thread will learn from my 'mistake' if you could really call it mistake as Io is my girly  but obviously it was a mistake as she hasn't turned out to be what I wanted fully. So perhaps people would see this and think more about getting a dog that does have all the papers etc so you know what you are getting is what you are getting.


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## Mumtomaddog (Sep 17, 2013)

Milliepoochie said:


> I will just say - Of course this is true.
> 
> Paperwork does not effect how much you love you dog or how clever / how much your dog can achieve but I do not agree with it in the sense that paperwork isnt important.
> 
> I think thread ssuch as this are one of the reasons why paperwork and knowledge on lines and a good relationshoip with the breeder IS so important.


Absolutely i agree with what you are saying 100% they are important so that you know that you are getting a good breed from a reliable breeder, but in terms of how we all feel for our beloved pooches,  no amount of paperwork in the world can make up for the bond that exists between us and our delightful doggies. 
I didnt mean it to sound that the paperwork isnt of any importance.. just reiterating the fact that had already been made. Max could have come with a few hundred dollar notes strapped to his back and wouldnt have made the slightest difference to how i feel about him.


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2013)

I all ways wondered about my Millie she is smaller then other cocker spaniels but she is most definately pedigree I met both her parents, saw both their papers and hers and have her 5 generation certificate which has her name and her litter mates. 

She comes from fairly good lines (she is related to Sable King) but she is small and very dainty despite having been the oldest of her litter. 

I would put her weight now between 13 and a half KG and 14 something. I need to get her weighed again to see if we have brought her weight down as she was getting a bit lardy!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Prowl said:


> I all ways wondered about my Millie she is smaller then other cocker spaniels but she is most definately pedigree I met both her parents, saw both their papers and hers and have her 5 generation certificate which has her name and her litter mates.
> 
> She comes from fairly good lines (she is related to Sable King) but she is small and very dainty despite having been the oldest of her litter.
> 
> I would put her weight now between 13 and a half KG and 14 something. I need to get her weighed again to see if we have brought her weight down as she was getting a bit lardy!


I am afriad just because you met the alleged sire does not mean it IS the sire of your dog.

Nor does seeing their papers or their 5 generation pedigree certificate.  The ONLY way to authenticate parentage is by DNA profiling.

After all, I bet you have met a lot of people who have been adopted that you did not KNOW were adopted.


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> I am afriad just because you met the alleged sire does not mean it IS the sire of your dog.
> 
> Nor does seeing their papers or their 5 generation pedigree certificate.  The ONLY way to authenticate parentage is by DNA profiling.
> 
> After all, I bet you have met a lot of people who have been adopted that you did not KNOW were adopted.


I think you will find they were her parents and she is pedigree otherwise whats the point in having certificates??


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Prowl said:


> I think you will find they were her parents and she is pedigree otherwise whats the point in having certificates??


I realise that you have only ever owned one dog, and not for very long so you are not aware of how people can and do forge papers; can and do lie about who sired the litter, etc etc

Trust me, they do.

If you do not believe me I suggest you subscribe to Our Dogs, Dog World or the Kennel Gazette where you will find the results of KC Disciplinary proceedings where these have been unearthed.

I repeat the only way to AUTHENTICATE parentage of your dog is by DNA profiling.

Before giving out advice to others it might be an idea to do some research to acquaint yourself with some facts first.


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> I realise that you have only ever owned one dog, and not for very long so you are not aware of how people can and do forge papers; can and do lie about who sired the litter, etc etc
> 
> Trust me, they do.
> 
> ...


Do you think I was I was born yesterday? I am fully aware people forge papers mine are genuine thanks I have ordered a five generation certificate from the KC itself so yes she her certificates are in fact genuine.

When your parting with a small fortune you check!


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Prowl said:


> I think you will find they were her parents and she is pedigree otherwise whats the point in having certificates??


I think Smokeybear is trying to say that like all documents they 'can' be forged


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

Prowl said:


> I think you will find they were her parents and she is pedigree otherwise whats the point in having certificates??


I don't think Smokeybear was saying that your Millie isn't what the breeders claim she is; more than there are a lot of untrustworthy people out there and really papers are just that... papers - anyone so inclined could fake them.
Say a breeder mated a cocker and a springer bitch both to a cocker, and then sold and registered a pup from the springer bitch as one from the cocker litter.
Nobody comes out to check the pups are in fact what they are being registered as; I guess it comes down to trust!

Rott or not, Io is fab 
Think this one looks a bit similar? (obviously older though!)


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> I realise that you have only ever owned one dog, and not for very long so you are not aware of how people can and do forge papers; can and do lie about who sired the litter, etc etc
> 
> Trust me, they do.
> 
> ...


Or own the bitch, and observe the mating


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Prowl said:


> I think you will find they were her parents and she is pedigree otherwise whats the point in having certificates??


But the OP has no papers to say they even are the parents and the parents no papers, and even when dogs are kc reg they can still lie or not know who the sire is of a litter when unethical practises occur. 
When people want a litter they sometimes put their bitch to other dogs to ensure the bitch ends up pregnant.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Oooh that one is a bit similar  where did you find that picture ?


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Milliepoochie said:


> I think Smokeybear is trying to say that like all documents they 'can' be forged


And unless you are there at conception and never let the bitch out of sight until you pick a pup you can never tell that the sire actually was the sire. Similarly as has been suggested there are breeders who pass off another bitches pup as the kc reg ones.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Hanwombat, you obviously love Io & that's all that matters. I have the polar opposite- a blimmin' massive Rottie mix, he's my best mate & partner in crime. Enjoy your girl


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Forgot to say. Whatever she is she's a cutie just cherish her whatever


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

GingerRogers said:


> And unless you are there at conception and never let the bitch out of sight until you pick a pup you can never tell that the sire actually was the sire. Similarly as has been suggested there are breeders who pass off another bitches pup as the kc reg ones.


Indeed  Like many aspects of life it is reliant on trust and people playing by the rules.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

GingerRogers said:


> Forgot to say. Whatever she is she's a cutie just cherish her whatever


She is isnt she :001_wub:

Im driving to Cambridgeshire tonight I need to hunt down HanWombats house and 'borrow' IO


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

simplysardonic said:


> Hanwombat, you obviously love Io & that's all that matters. I have the polar opposite- a blimmin' massive Rottie mix, he's my best mate & partner in crime. Enjoy your girl


Awwww


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Milliepoochie said:


> She is isnt she :001_wub:
> 
> Im driving to Cambridgeshire tonight I need to hunt down HanWombats house and 'borrow' IO


You are? Where abouts you going? 

Do you mean borrow to bring back or borrow to keep


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

Hanwombat said:


> Oooh that one is a bit similar  where did you find that picture ?


From here 
Rizler - 2 year old female Rottweiler Cross dog for adoption

Not very useful as it doesnt say what she is lol, but the google tags said 'rottweiler staff cross'


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Hanwombat said:


> You are? Where abouts you going?
> 
> Do you mean borrow to bring back or borrow to keep


A Halloween house party in a village called Sawston :thumbsup: So il have no Millie 

Il bring her back - I promise **cough cough**


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

BlueJay said:


> I don't think Smokeybear was saying that your Millie isn't what the breeders claim she is; more than there are a lot of untrustworthy people out there and really papers are just that... papers - anyone so inclined could fake them.
> Say a breeder mated a cocker and a springer bitch both to a cocker, and then sold and registered a pup from the springer bitch as one from the cocker litter.
> Nobody comes out to check the pups are in fact what they are being registered as; I guess it comes down to trust!
> 
> ...


That doggy is real cute  how did you find it?


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Milliepoochie said:


> A Halloween house party in a village called Sawston :thumbsup: So il have no Millie
> 
> Il bring her back - I promise **cough cough**


Ah cool, Sawston is about 30 mins from me 

Io would prob love it haha, having Millie as a friend


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

BlueJay said:


> From here
> Rizler  2 year old female Rottweiler Cross dog for adoption
> 
> Not very useful as it doesnt say what she is lol, but the google tags said 'rottweiler staff cross'


Awww, I could see Io looking a bit like that. Similar ears


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Prowl said:


> Do you think I was I was born yesterday? I am fully aware people forge papers mine are genuine thanks I have ordered a five generation certificate from the KC itself so yes she her certificates are in fact genuine.
> 
> When your parting with a small fortune you check!


Even if the papers are genuine, they are still no PROOF that the sire of your dog is the one that is written on the papers.

I will repeat, the only way to truly AUTHENTICATE the parentage of your dog is by DNA profiling; otherwise you have to take the word of the breeder.

It really is simple.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Lots of Rottie crosses of all shapes & sizes & colours :001_wub:

Rottweiler Cross Dogs for Adoption and Rescue


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

simplysardonic said:


> Lots of Rottie crosses of all shapes & sizes & colours :001_wub:
> 
> Rottweiler Cross Dogs for Adoption and Rescue


I'll have to look when I am home from work


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> Even if the papers are genuine, they are still no PROOF that the sire of your dog is the one that is written on the papers.
> 
> I will repeat, the only way to truly AUTHENTICATE the parentage of your dog is by DNA profiling; otherwise you have to take the word of the breeder.
> 
> It really is simple.


Thats just scair mongering those who buy pedigree dogs and encouraging those who don't like pedigree dogs to like breeders even less!!

If you can't trust a KC Accredited breeder what is the point in purchasing a puppy from a respectable breeder?


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

Prowl said:


> Thats just scair mongering those who buy pedigree dogs and encouraging those who don't like pedigree dogs to like breeders even less!!
> 
> If you can't *trust* a KC Accredited breeder what is the point in purchasing a puppy from a respectable breeder?


All that is being said is that trust is what its about.
No scaremongering from what I can see; you have to just take the breeders word on things, and not all people in this world are trustworthy.
Many breeders are fine, but it still pays to be aware that some arent 
It might not even come down to the trust in the breeder - as has been said before, what if their bitch was mated by a different dog and they didnt know about it for whatever reason. They then might _think_ they are registering and selling the pups appropriately, but might not be


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Prowl said:


> Thats just scair mongering those who buy pedigree dogs and encouraging those who don't like pedigree dogs to like breeders even less!!
> 
> If you can't trust a KC Accredited breeder what is the point in purchasing a puppy from a respectable breeder?


Its not scare mongering, its fact, you stated that 'she (Millie) is most definately pedigree I met both her parents, saw both their papers and hers and have her 5 generation certificate which has her name and her litter mates'

Then 'I think you will find they were her parents and she is pedigree otherwise whats the point in having certificates'

SB and others were just pointing out that actually there is no certainty in any of this, ie: breeders lie and the only way to have any really conviction is either to DNA test the offspring against the supposed parents or to have a long term, ongoing, good relationship with a breeder where you can be reasonably certain the trust you place in them will be rewarded.

Thinking that because you have plucked a KC registered breeder from a list whether they can list 5 generations or not is no guarantee you are getting what you think.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Prowl said:


> Thats just scair mongering those who buy pedigree dogs and encouraging those who don't like pedigree dogs to like breeders even less!!
> 
> If you can't trust a KC Accredited breeder what is the point in purchasing a puppy from a respectable breeder?


No scare mongering is when you post untruths and exagerrated claims (you know like the one you posted about cyanide in apples) 

This is a FACT.

It does not "encourage" anyone to like breeders less.

TRUST is exactly what it is about, but trust can be and is broken.


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2013)

BlueJay said:


> All that is being said is that trust is what its about.
> No scaremongering from what I can see; you have to just take the breeders word on things, and not all people in this world are trustworthy.
> Many breeders are fine, but it still pays to be aware that some arent


But basiclly what SB is saying you can't trust a breeder because they forge their papers.

How would that be possible from an accredited breeder which is not just any breeder. Surely when you see pups you get a feel of the place, were the pups are, how their looked after and their condition ect surely something would click if it their something in any way fake.

If the papers were fake it would be obvious even the puppy pack came from the KC. If the puppies were not of the parents and from a different litter it would be obvious.

Saying you can forge papers is what puts people off from purchasing a pedigree puppy.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Prowl said:


> Thats just scair mongering those who buy pedigree dogs and encouraging those who don't like pedigree dogs to like breeders even less!!
> 
> If you can't trust a KC Accredited breeder what is the point in purchasing a puppy from a respectable breeder?


I doubt it as smokeybear has pedigree dogs. 

How do you know your dogs sire is as stated? It's only trust of the breeder from what they have told you.


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> I doubt it as smokeybear has pedigree dogs.
> 
> How do you know your dogs sire is as stated? It's only trust of the breeder from what they have told you.


Its on her five generation certificate including an official change over form her parents are listed including their colours ect.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Prowl said:


> But basiclly what SB is saying you can't trust a breeder because they forge their papers.
> 
> How would that be possible from an accredited breeder which is not just any breeder. Surely when you see pups you get a feel of the place, were the pups are, how their looked after and their condition ect surely something would click if it their something in any way fake.
> 
> ...


All the documents can be genuine KC documents but in honesty unless you watched the dam and sire mate and stayed with the dam until puppies were born 24 / 7 then how would you definately know a dogs parentage?

The answer is you dont - You are relying on a breeder telling you the truth.

Most will be honest and tell the truth but lets not be in denial not all of them are.

What SB is saying is that you are relying on trust from the breeder to register the right parents to a litter.

That the only way you would KNOW for definate would be if you bred the dog for example or had DNA tests.

I know very little about puppies / breeders etc - Never bought one BUT even for instance I now realise just because a breeder is KC accredited it doenst mean they are completely ethical breeders.

Doesnt mean all health tests are guaranteed or came out good for example.

Any document can be forged


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Prowl said:


> Its on her five generation certificate including an official change over form her parents are listed including their colours ect.


Yes, I know what it is, I have Alfie's and the other dogs. But at the end of the day I am at the breeders mercy for the truth of his parentage. What if the breeder mated the bitch but she was then caught again by another dog? It could even be a dog of the same colour and type, there would be no way of knowing.

All I really know though is what is told to me and likewise you, by my breeder and I have to trust that alone, as the paper is nothing. People put wrong names for birth dads on birth certificates, paper means very little.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Prowl said:


> Its on her five generation certificate including an official change over form her parents are listed including their colours ect.


The KC don't authenticate this, a breeder could put any dam or sire ( easier to do if they own the sire) on paper work and send it to the KC! Anything could be put on the paper work then you get a pedigree, it's hardly a fail proof method and unless the KC start coming out to DNA test every dog you don't know where your dog is from, becoming an assured of accredited breeder means you do certain things that the KC say you have to it doesn't guarantee your getting an ethical above board breeder that you can only do by word of mouth and getting to know breeders over a period of time, there are always bad apples in anything!


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Prowl said:


> Its on her five generation certificate including an official change over form her parents are listed including their colours ect.


Is it not estimated that 1 in 10 people have a different father than the one named on their birth certificate?

Paperwork is a bit meaningless is all that's being said I'm pretty sure - not that most breeders forge things or that your dog isn't what she's supposed to be, just that if someone is dishonest or mistaken the paperwork doesn't prove anything by itself.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Prowl said:


> Its on her five generation certificate including an official change over form her parents are listed including their colours ect.


Did the pups slide out the womb clutching those certificates as a direct result of the mating? No!! Its a bit of paper that has as much relevance to the truth as an Enid Blyton story.

No one is saying YOUR dog isn't what it says on her papers but the fact that it says something on a piece of paper means zilch in reality.

For example if the OP had purchased Io from an accredited breeder and had papers including a list of five generations, there is still no guarantee that Io wasn't actually the result of an accidental mating/double mating with another dog and not the offspring of the sire listed on the papers at all. And again perhaps another breeder had a mixed breed litter and the Op's breeder had a smaller than usual litter so agreed to pass the mixed pups of the correct colouring off as her own thus obtaining the papers and five generations of pedigree for pups that not only arent the sires but not the dams either.

In fact KC registered or not either of these things could still be true wherever a pup is purchased from so the relationship with the breeder is paramount.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

GingerRogers said:


> *Did the pups slide out the womb clutching those certificates as a direct result of the mating? *No!! Its a bit of paper that has as much relevance to the truth as an Enid Blyton story.
> 
> No one is saying YOUR dog isn't what it says on her papers but the fact that it says something on a piece of paper means zilch in reality.
> 
> ...


Rep for you lol


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Prowl said:


> But basiclly what SB is saying you can't trust a breeder because they forge their papers.
> 
> How would that be possible from an accredited breeder which is not just any breeder. Surely when you see pups you get a feel of the place, were the pups are, how their looked after and their condition ect surely something would click if it their something in any way fake.
> 
> ...


Not all breeders are honest. Not all accredited breeders are honest either.

Dishonest people breed puppies and claim its for the love of the breed etc. They then register the litters and get puppy packs and give free insurance from either KC or an insurance company.

Most breeders love what they are doing and want the best for their pups so will tell you warts and all if you ask..these are the honest ones.

Rescues etc will tell you to visit the pup in its environment and with at least its mother and siblings and possibly sire aswell......don't go to a BYB.

Nobody said your pup had forged papers, only that some breeders do forge them and without a DNA test its impossible to say.

Forging paperwork doesn't mean going on a computer and drawing up some copied papers, it just means that not always are the pups progeny from who a breeder says they are.

Local puppy farmer near me always registers his pups unless stated as X.cos quite often X bred make more money. He has crossed springer to cocker and says one is a working strain but both are the same...and its a lie..but all pups come registered.I know this cos 2 friends bought pups off him with same matings and one was more cocker and the other was more springer..came with puppy pack and papers.


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## littleangel01 (Jul 3, 2011)

Bits of this thread remind me of my old dog malachy. 

I had just lost my rottie boy to health probles ( as said befor he was bredx for size he was born blind and had health issues he died at a year old)

Not long after i was intouch with a lady who needed to rehome her 16week old ped kc reg lab puppy due to her kids.

I went along to meet him. Lady was loverly she said had gotten bim from a breeder he had his first vac and all papers ect. Brought him out i took one look at him and told her no way was he pure lab. Body was lab face wasnt. But he had all the paper work. She wasnt trying to charge full price and just wanted a good home so i took him and he turned out to be a bril dog liked to chew but great in any other way. Best guess was he was a lab cross cocker  altho collie x lab lab x collie were also thrown about. No real idea who his breeder was but guess is puppy farm


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## Mumtomaddog (Sep 17, 2013)

Not sure if i've missed a post stating what you intend to do , Hanwombat. 
Do you intend to contact the breeder and tell them of your concerns and see if they shed any light on it or are you just going to let it go and chalk it up to experience?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Hanwombat said:


> Ah cool, Sawston is about 30 mins from me
> 
> Io would prob love it haha, having Millie as a friend


I have nothing really to add to the thread, (well apart from IO is cute no matter what she is ) but what a small world....I'm about 20-30 mins from Sawston too


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I know this has gone off topic a bit, but just to say, it's entirely possible for any breeder, right from an ABS member to forge paperwork, lose litters, down to those sort of breeders that aren't looked as favourably on - I know of an ABS member who allowed a bitch with HC to have a litter, but no real proof as the owner of the bitch chose not to KC register the litter. 

You have to have a bond of trust with a breeder, obviously I couldn't give any proof to people who took Tau's pups, they just had to take my word that I was being truthful about the dog I'd used, and that she'd not been got to by any other dogs. I have absolutely no qualms about their paperwork as I know myself the dog used is as stated. I don't have proof of Tau's parentage, but I trust her breeder, but then you start going back through pedigrees and if you know that people are being dishonest along the line, it's not hard to think you may end up with one or two anomalies in there. I know of one *top* breeder who supposedly used a non-KC registered dog, because they liked it's style, and put down one of their own stud dogs on the paperwork. It's easily done, and some breeders frequently register extra pups, and say pups are from one bitch when they're from a litter sibling. It's one reason I would prefer to use DNA profiling more so than just microchipping, so that it's more difficult, if not impossible, to cheat the system.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Mumtomaddog said:


> Not sure if i've missed a post stating what you intend to do , Hanwombat.
> Do you intend to contact the breeder and tell them of your concerns and see if they shed any light on it or are you just going to let it go and chalk it up to experience?


I'm not going to text the people I got Io from. TBH if they knew their dog or the male had a different breed in the lines they could just lie and say they weren't aware. It isn't going to change anything so I am just happy with Io and look forward to seeing how big she grows and also what she will look like 



StormyThai said:


> I have nothing really to add to the thread, (well apart from IO is cute no matter what she is ) but what a small world....I'm about 20-30 mins from Sawston too


Oh cool! Where abouts are you? I am NW of Sawston, towards Huntingdon


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Hanwombat said:


> I'm not going to text the people I got Io from. TBH if they knew their dog or the male had a different breed in the lines they could just lie and say they weren't aware. It isn't going to change anything so I am just happy with Io and look forward to seeing how big she grows and also what she will look like
> 
> Oh cool! Where abouts are you? I am NW of Sawston, towards Huntingdon


I'm the opposite way, I'm down in Haverhill (or Haverhole whichever you prefer )


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## Ann Elizabeth (May 12, 2013)

I have to be honest and say I was surprised at how few checks are done by KC when registering a litter, but again realistically they could not possibly check every litter. I mated my dog and bitch and when I registered the litter, I received a letter as stud owner saying a litter had been registered giving Max's details as sire if this was not the case to respond in writing to the KC letter within so many days......
I have also been told that people will buy in litters of pups, possibly without papers, and register them with the KC as their dogs progeny, as a very honest person I admit that I was shocked by this and didn't want to believe it either but the more I thought about it I realised that if you were so minded it would be quite simple to be dishonest about parentage of a litter. It does make me very angry and I only hope that Karma comes back and bites those who do it in the bum!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Prowl said:


> But basiclly what SB is saying you can't trust a breeder because they forge their papers.
> 
> *No that is NOT what I said. That is what you INFERRED from my post. There is a BIG difference*
> 
> ...


The KC only print what breeders TELL them, they have NO way of knowing if the breeder is telling the TRUTH.

I repeat saying you can forge papers does NOT put people off from buying a pedigree puppy any more than saying you can forge banknotes puts people off withdrawing money from the bank.

Or puts people off buying cars.

Get a grip!


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## springfieldbean (Sep 13, 2010)

Prowl said:


> I all ways wondered about my Millie she is smaller then other cocker spaniels but she is most definately pedigree I met both her parents, saw both their papers and hers and have her 5 generation certificate which has her name and her litter mates.
> 
> She comes from fairly good lines (she is related to Sable King) but she is small and very dainty despite having been the oldest of her litter.
> 
> I would put her weight now between 13 and a half KG and 14 something. I need to get her weighed again to see if we have brought her weight down as she was getting a bit lardy!


Just to say that Sherlock's a full cocker (although working - not sure if Millie is working or show?) and he only weighs 13.55kg (he's 2.5 yo) so I wouldn't worry about Millie! The cockers I've met have all varied massively in size, and I've seen some really tiny females. Sherlock's mum is very small


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Prowl said:


> Its on her five generation certificate including an official change over form her parents are listed including their colours ect.


Have you actually watched The Jeremy Kyle show?

If so you will know that any mother can register their baby with any father; it does not PROVE they are the actual sire of their baby?


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Basically what I think SB is saying:

Breeder has bitch in season, she takes it to reputable stud dog, and a mating occurs, paper work is signed to say that mating occured. 2 days later that bitch is got to by breeders own male for example. Now the breeder has no idea who sired any puppies or if all the pups have the same sire. Now because that breeder has signed paperwork from the origional stud dog they could easily register the litter as been sired by the stud dog without actually knowing for certain.

Or breeder takes bitch to stud dog, stud dog won't perform so stud dog owner says we'll use another dog but sign the papers to say it was the origional stud that performed the mating.

Or breeder takes bitch to be mated, stud dog owner brings out a black dog for example, breeder assumes this is the dog they have picked but a lot of the time the breeder doesn't meet the stud until the mating. Then the breeder has to trust the stud dog owner that the dog you are confronted with is actually the dog you want to mate your bitch. Then stud dog owner can sign paper work for any of there dogs.

There are loads of ways that a mating can be 'forged' without the KC knowing, unless the KC witness every single mating.


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

Rodney Trotter's Birth Certificate had the father named as "Some Soldiers."

Hope that clears this up.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Hanwombat said:


> Very true, hopefully people reading this thread will learn from my 'mistake' if you could really call it mistake as Io is my girly  but obviously it was a mistake as she hasn't turned out to be what I wanted fully. So perhaps people would see this and think more about getting a dog that does have all the papers etc so you know what you are getting is what you are getting.


Well if you do decided to go for a KC registered breeder, then let me know I know a wonderful ethical breeder who while KC registers her puppies is not part of the assured breeders scheme as she thinks it means nothing and the standards are lower than her own  So she she does hips, elbows, DNA, eyes, Heart and temperament tests, and you gain a friend for life  there is also another breeder I'd strongly recommend as they do all of the above too. They also both rarely have litters, and will only ever take two litters from bitches over 2 years of age


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Meezey said:


> Well if you do decided to go for a KC registered breeder, then let me know I know a wonderful ethical breeder who while KC registers her puppies is not part of the assured breeders scheme as she thinks it means nothing and the standards are lower than her own  So she she does hips, elbows, DNA, eyes, Heart and temperament tests, and you gain a friend for life  there is also another breeder I'd strongly recommend as they do all of the above too. They also both rarely have litters, and will only ever take two litters from bitches over 2 years of age


Thank you


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Hanwombat said:


> Thank you


Keep them pictures of Io coming looking forward to see the naughty madam grow in to her paws :thumbsup:


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Meezey said:


> Keep them pictures of Io coming looking forward to see the naughty madam grow in to her paws :thumbsup:


Will do! I know! she is all paw and leg currently! Her head and ears have forgotten to catch up


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Hanwombat said:


> Will do! I know! she is all paw and leg currently! Her head and ears have forgotten to catch up


Cian's is coming up 7.5 months, I don't think he will ever grow in to his ear  Then again if he does he's going to be a donkey not a dog


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

I've read plenty of stories where KC registered pups have been found out to not be full breed at all. Accidental matings, people owning more than 1 intact male of different breeds and the wrong one getting to the bitch but oh well we have the right one here we'll just say he is the sire. 

There was a program on TV with DNA profiling , someone had bought a cockerpoo but the DNA results showed the dog had absolutely no cocker spaniel in it at all! :lol: I know it's easier to get away with it, with these "Poo" mix breeds as I call them but there are ways to pull the wool over the KC's eyes too.

My sisters lab is KC registered but ... I can see looking at her face she is not full Lab she has a staffy smile and staffy eyes and her ears are the wrong shape too. She was a rescue free to a good home so my sister isn't particularly bothered.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Meezey said:


> Cian's is coming up 7.5 months, I don't think he will ever grow in to his ear  Then again if he does he's going to be a donkey not a dog


N'awww! Donkies are cute too 



ellenlouisepascoe said:


> I've read plenty of stories where KC registered pups have been found out to not be full breed at all. Accidental matings, people owning more than 1 intact male of different breeds and the wrong one getting to the bitch but oh well we have the right one here we'll just say he is the sire.
> 
> There was a program on TV with DNA profiling , someone had bought a cockerpoo but the DNA results showed the dog had absolutely no cocker spaniel in it at all! :lol: I know it's easier to get away with it, with these "Poo" mix breeds as I call them but there are ways to pull the wool over the KC's eyes too.
> 
> My sisters lab is KC registered but ... I can see looking at her face she is not full Lab she has a staffy smile and staffy eyes and her ears are the wrong shape too. She was a rescue free to a good home so my sister isn't particularly bothered.


I saw that program! Wasn't it actually springer instead of cocker that the dog had?


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Hanwombat said:


> I saw that program! Wasn't it actually springer instead of cocker that the dog had?


Yes it was!! The guy just said " I don't care I love him anyways!"

I wouldn't be surprised if Blade possibly had something else in him, I'm not overly familiar with the husky having only owned him for 6 months and I've only met 3 huskys since buying him but my vet said he's a nice example of his breed and his daughter has 28 huskys and competes in sled races. We get a lot of comments that he isn't due to his tail not being curled over his back , but an overly curled tail is actually a fault in the breed


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> I've read plenty of stories where KC registered pups have been found out to not be full breed at all. Accidental matings, people owning more than 1 intact male of different breeds and the wrong one getting to the bitch but oh well we have the right one here we'll just say he is the sire.
> 
> There was a program on TV with DNA profiling , someone had bought a cockerpoo but the DNA results showed the dog had absolutely no cocker spaniel in it at all! :lol: I know it's easier to get away with it, with these "Poo" mix breeds as I call them but there are ways to pull the wool over the KC's eyes too.
> 
> My sisters lab is KC registered but ... I can see looking at her face she is not full Lab she has a staffy smile and staffy eyes and her ears are the wrong shape too. She was a rescue free to a good home so my sister isn't particularly bothered.


That's one of the things about taking your time picking your breeder  I've known Cian's breeder for 10 years, and I was due to get a pup from her 5 years ago but it wasn't to be, her stud dog wasn't the planned sire to Cian's litter, but as dam and Sire had all health tests in place she chose to let it go full term, but she was very honest about it. Once you start knowing different breeder, and you join different forums, or FB pages you "know" who you can trust and who you can't ( this is not just about breeders in EVERY walk of life there are people who are dishonest), and who is always ethical and who isn't always 

I think a part of the problems is also along with dishonest breeders, people rush in to getting pups, they want them yesterday they see one litter from one breeder they saw had a litter and fall in love and want to bring the puppy home  if they waited a year or so, or started researching a year before they would be able to sort out the wheat from the chaff so to speak :thumbsup:


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

I may do one of those DNA tests next year to see what else Io actually has in her. I don't know how good they are but it would be interesting to know.

That was such a shock with that man, he thought he had a cocker x poodle and the dog didn't even have any cocker in it - it just goes to show..


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Meezey said:


> I think a part of the problems is also along with dishonest breeders, people rush in to getting pups, they want them yesterday they see one litter from one breeder they saw had a litter and fall in love and want to bring the puppy home  if they waited a year or so, or started researching a year before they would be able to sort out the wheat from the chaff so to speak :thumbsup:


I am guilty of that! I saw Blade and wanted him immediately! He's my first dog I've bought myself I spent about a week reading up on huskys and then he was dropped off at my house, but I've never stopped reading up about them since to make sure we bring him up right! Obviously I love him to pieces and wouldn't hand him over for all the money in the world but I've learned my lessons for next time around , we'll definitely be sticking with another husky though. It's true they're addictive!


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Hanwombat said:


> I may do one of those DNA tests next year to see what else Io actually has in her. I don't know how good they are but it would be interesting to know.
> 
> That was such a shock with that man, he thought he had a cocker x poodle and the dog didn't even have any cocker in it - it just goes to show..


I wouldn't bother with one of the commercially available DNA kits. They are, as far as I know, pretty unreliable, particularly in determining between similar breeds.

It is entirely possible that the man on the TV did actually have a cockerpoo - just that the test was inaccurate...


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Dimwit said:


> I wouldn't bother with one of the commercially available DNA kits. They are, as far as I know, pretty unreliable, particularly in determining between similar breeds.
> 
> It is entirely possible that the man on the TV did actually have a cockerpoo - just that the test was inaccurate...


I don't remember which one they used on the program , was possibly DNA Testing Lab Center - Paternity Test & Drug Testing by DNA Worldwide


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

I don't care what IO is she is gorgeous, I claimed her in the dog stealing thread so I have first dibs.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> I am guilty of that! I saw Blade and wanted him immediately! He's my first dog I've bought myself I spent about a week reading up on huskys and then he was dropped off at my house, but I've never stopped reading up about them since to make sure we bring him up right! Obviously I love him to pieces and wouldn't hand him over for all the money in the world but I've learned my lessons for next time around , we'll definitely be sticking with another husky though. It's true they're addictive!


I think we all make mistakes, and most people learn from them  it's when people don't learn or ignore all advise given to them about the warning signs that are there and think they know best that it gets frustrating 

I purchased my first GSD for £20 and I got him at 5 weeks, he was from a BYB ( well that term wasn't about then), other than fear of other dogs on lead ( he was the best Foster Dog Dad  in the world ) he was perfect, great temp, I lost him at 12 to CDRM I was luck that's all that was wrong I was also lucky I'd trained and work dogs for a living before I got him, but I cringe when I think about buying him now, I knew no better and no one else told me it was wrong...


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

samuelsmiles said:


> Rodney Trotter's Birth Certificate had the father named as "Some Soldiers."
> 
> Hope that clears this up.


It's Trigger's actually...


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Meezey said:


> I think we all make mistakes, and most people learn from them  it's when people don't learn or ignore all advise given to them about the warning signs that are there and think they know best that it gets frustrating
> 
> I purchased my first GSD for £20 and I got him at 5 weeks, he was from a BYB ( well that term wasn't about then), other than fear of other dogs on lead ( he was the best Foster Dog Dad  in the world ) he was perfect, great temp, I lost him at 12 to CDRM I was luck that's all that was wrong I was also lucky I'd trained and work dogs for a living before I got him, but I cringe when I think about buying him now, I knew no better and no one else told me it was wrong...


Definitely! We bought Blade from a work friend, which makes it a little more difficult. His Mum is already pregnant again :angry:


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## CheddarS (Dec 13, 2011)

Meezey said:


> Cian's is coming up 7.5 months, I don't think he will ever grow in to his ear  Then again if he does he's going to be a donkey not a dog


Get a Weimie if you want big ears...that they never grow into


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> There was a program on TV with DNA profiling , someone had bought a cockerpoo but the DNA results showed the dog had absolutely no cocker spaniel in it at all! :lol: I know it's easier to get away with it, with these "Poo" mix breeds as I call them but there are ways to pull the wool over the KC's eyes too.


I watched that (well, assuming it was the same one where they said the dog wasn't a cockerpoo but a springerpoo), but I don't believe the results are something the owner should go by and I actually thought the guy giving the results was out of order for the way he was basically making out as though the breeder was lying. Springers and cockers originated from the same breed anyway, so they are bound to be genetically similar so how they can so definitely differentiate between a springer and cocker is beyond me... The owner looked really annoyed, and I am not surprised.


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

I definitely think it can be harder than people make out to make sure you find a reputable breeder, especially for the first time. 

Arrow was the first time I had ever been to a breeder, and I most definitely made mistakes. There were question I didn't ask the breeder that I should have, and I only found out after the fact... as it was, everything was fine and I wouldn't change Arrow for the world... but I know next time to ask those questions. I will definitely learn from those mistakes... I had actually been very pleased with my choice of breeder, and in some ways I still am. Yes, there were some things I didn't like or agree with, but there were many more things I did like, and thanks to her I have a truly wonderful dog. I did find it hard to find a breeder who ticked most of the boxes (I would say all, but I thought the breeder I chose did tick all of them but she actually didn't...).


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Before I knew better I bought a cocker spaniel pup from a home breeder. I got exactly what I wanted. A wonderful cocker (well he would have been if he hadn't bullied the hell out of my Great Dane - but breeding had nothing to do with that). 

I didn't want to show him, he was a pet for my son. 

He had a five gen pedigree, and was KC registered. 

His sire was a famous stud dog, but his dam, like so many out there, was a nice cocker, who hadn't done a thing in her life. 

You can't get good genes just from one side of the family!! But so many people think you'll get a top dog by using a good sire. 

My cocker was small - only 13 kg. He looked nothing like a show cocker. Didn't bother me at all. 

But pedigree papers only show two dogs of the same breed have been mated. Doesn't go anyway near showing they are good examples of the breed. That's why I would now want to see what BOTH parents have done if I wanted a stunning example of a particular breed. Otherwise you have to accept it might be small, large, wrong shape etc. 

I loved Bingley - best little dog ever. Never regret for a moment I bought him.


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