# Your Thoughts on BSH/Exotic Crosses



## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

I've been seeing quite a lot of BSHs with a/some Exotic Shorthairs in their pedigree and I am curious to know what British breeders (since most of you here are from the UK) think about this? 

For me, most I see still look 'too' Exotic and not quite British (which I suppose IS the case) but it is true that they (generally) have more open eyes, sometimes better type and perhaps a rounder face (I'm not BSH expert though).


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## LittlePancakeTheExotic (Jun 17, 2013)

Think mine is a good example of a "not so exotic" Exotic. Open faced or whatever it's called, he sometimes looks more bsh than zottie in my opinion (but then maybe i know nawt )


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## LittlePancakeTheExotic (Jun 17, 2013)

And another, don't know how to multi post. Really curious about this as well!


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Not a BSH breeder but if EXO is a allowable outcross in the standard then there's no problem, it does take a few generations to get type back in, which is why many out crosses aren't considered full breed until 4th or 5th gen.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

the british don't have any allowable outcrosses... 

if it was tica then you need a good 5 gens of brits after a 1 outcross before it becomes a pedigree again, but gccf doesn't allow it.

however there are new colours / patterns that may allow it but I don't know about them, why would they use exotics? Brits aren't exactly lacking in a small gene pool?


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Iv seen some and i actually liked them they seem to be imports if you do see them here 'germany i think' really like there extreme brits,i had a girl with sort of a flatter face,her eyes would even water like a persian,and she was a snoorer i liked her looks. shes spayed now thought.

I saw a blue other day and it had the pronounced whisker pads like a persian i thought that looks like its had some persian in its history.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Taylorbaby said:


> the british don't have any allowable outcrosses...


GCCF registration policy reads:

_Note 3. When a BSH is outcrossed to a Persian, an FAB/PKD certificate of freedom from PKD must be provided for both parents before 
the resulting offspring can be registered as BSH or BSH Variant on the relevant register_

Are Persians allowed but not Exotics? Or does that only apply to cats brought in from an association that does allow outcrossing?


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

LittlePancakeTheExotic said:


> And another, don't know how to multi post. Really curious about this as well!


hes lovely


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

I don't know the exact details but until recently( or possibly still happening but I haven't seen any which were born this year for eg), it was possible to outcross exotics and BSHs. might even have been an 'in-thing' since I see them at many good catteries. 

I'm half half about it. I like some of them but I can still tell they have exotic in them (I think it's the muzzle/ noise, eye shape). I'm inclined to think that perhaps I'm partial towards the classic ones after all (mind you, I think exotics are lovely). It would be nice if it were a bsh which had all we wanted from a bsh but not a bsh where an exotic can be detected if that makes sense (but I guess this takes time).


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

spotty cats said:


> Not a BSH breeder but if EXO is a allowable outcross in the standard then there's no problem, it does take a few generations to get type back in, which is why many out crosses aren't considered full breed until 4th or 5th gen.


indeed. I think currently they are pretty much registered as BSHs even as first/second generation which, is probably why the results still look 'obvious'


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

sorry I keep adding stuff, I'm posting via my mobile phone on the way to work

I suppose the reason why I am interested is because I'm wondering if I'm should be more far sighted and if this is how British Shorthairs are supposed to look like in the future and is this the look that I should strive for


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

pipje said:


> indeed. I think currently they are pretty much registered as BSHs even as first/second generation which, is probably why the results still look 'obvious'


They should be registered as BSH, Abys are our allowable outcross and are all called Ocicats

At least one association over here allows BSH to outcross once every 4 generations. judges do not tend to like Exotic looking BSH, we have open shows so get to listen to the judging.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

British Shorthairs owe their type/look in part to Persians and without that influence I think we'd have a very different looking British Shorthair today. I'm not going to say that they are harder to breed 'to the ideal type' than any other but being a very intermediate (for their look) breed I think it can be difficult to consistently achieve the type 'just so'. How many times have we had disagreement on here as to whether someone's cat is a "full" British Shorthair, often because the type is relatively poor? That tends not happen with more extreme breeds as, even though the type may not be good, they are nonetheless instantly recognisable. 

I can see why breeders might seek to improve certain features - larger, rounder eyes, a broader muzzle, slightly shorter jaw, smaller ears, etc - by introducing an Exotic into their breeding or seeking out a kitten to buy that has that kind of pedigree. You may get the desired effect but obviously the genes don't line up and fall into place overnight. I think it's a double edged sword. There is a greater proportion of bite/dentition problems in Persians/Exotics; the nose leather and nostril aperture is sometimes reduced, minor cosmetic skull deformities are not uncommon; many, if not most, Exotics carry longhair which is going to do nothing for a BSH coat. And I think it needs to be remembered that even if one carefully chooses an Exotic without any of the above conformation problems, the likelihood is they are still there somewhere in the pedigree.

We've seen a big influx of imported BSH's into the UK from the continent in recent years. Many are imported not just for different blood lines but because many breeders like the 'look' - often typier, with bigger eyes and a very particular "look" - many of these have a greater Persian/Exotic influence in their breeding than do most UK bred BSH. I do think they have something to offer us here in the UK but often the look/type is wrong and it's wrong because you can see the Exotic/Persian influence still, after many generations, with a 'pinched' look across the nose, reduced nose leather/nostril size and frequently too deep a nose break for a BSH. I've imported cats from continental Europe myself but have steered clear of this look - I just don't like it.

Sorry, I really sound like I'm spouting off  It's just my passion for the breed and my interest in it.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

I agree with that description D this is my old girl who was somewhat flatter faced.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

we love bsh's said:


> I agree with that description D this is my old girl who was somewhat flatter faced.


Doesn't it just go illustrate that we all 'see' different things and differ in our preferences! To me, your girl is not flat faced at all.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> Doesn't it just go illustrate that we all 'see' different things and differ in our preferences! To me, your girl is not flat faced at all.


Dont ya think? Yes interesting.Her eyes would act like persian eyes and water and she would make the snoring noise.

I loved her look and was gutted when she had to be spayed in a c section.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

we love bsh's said:


> Dont ya think? Yes interesting.Her eyes would act like persian eyes and water and she would make the snoring noise.
> 
> I loved her look and was gutted when she had to be spayed in a c section.


I like her look too. There's obviously a greater chance of impeded tear ducts, the shorter the nose becomes. It's a balancing act, for sure.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I suppose the reason why I am interested is because I'm wondering if I'm should be more far sighted and if this is how British Shorthairs are supposed to look like in the future and is this the look that I should strive for


Is it what you want, what you like, what you believe produces the best (healthiest) kittens? Breeders are good at claiming their aim is to 'improve' a breed when what they are doing is changing it to suit a fashion and not always for the betterment of the cats. Improving a breeder's chance of putting red on the ped does not* necessarily *improve a breed at all. It changes it. If you believe that change is in the right direction for the right reasons then you go along with it. If you don't then you shouldn't.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> Sorry, I really sound like I'm spouting off  It's just my passion for the breed and my interest in it.


Interesting read  surely all should be so passionate and interested in their chosen breed unfortunately it's not always the case


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> British Shorthairs owe their type/look in part to Persians and without that influence I think we'd have a very different looking British Shorthair today


From when though? Persians now and when first used in BSH are probably very different  It's the thing people forget when considering the influence of an outcross breed.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

havoc said:


> From when though? Persians now and when first used in BSH are probably very different  It's the thing people forget when considering the influence of an outcross breed.


Oh yes, they do! All BSH have a good deal, percentage wise, of Persian when you look back to foundation from the late 1800's when the type (of Persians) was indescribably different to the modern day cats. Since, there was a lot of outcrossing to Persians after both WW's and again in the 1970's but type had remained relatively moderate in the UK until importation of the ultra-type so favoured in the US. Mid/late 80's was that? All I can remember is that the breed seemed to drastically change in the space of just a few years.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

gskinner123 said:


> Doesn't it just go illustrate that we all 'see' different things and differ in our preferences! To me, your girl is not flat faced at all.


I thought that to! She looks lovely! :001_wub:

I didn't even realise about the Persians, some lines do look different to me, have seen some with huge ears to tiny tiny ears!

I have just put my name down for a new British girl and I love the dad sooo much, to me he is the ideal British boy :001_wub:
And Gskinners boy Ollie, is stunning, to me that is what A British is :001_wub: :drool:


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

havoc said:


> Is it what you want, what you like, what you believe produces the best (healthiest) kittens? Breeders are good at claiming their aim is to 'improve' a breed when what they are doing is changing it to suit a fashion and not always for the betterment of the cats. Improving a breeder's chance of putting red on the ped does not* necessarily *improve a breed at all. It changes it. If you believe that change is in the right direction for the right reasons then you go along with it. If you don't then you shouldn't.


oh I agree totally. I haven't heard anything wrong with them health wise. as I said, I want to know if this is the look to strive for and the reason why I want too know is because the ideal I have (in my head) might not be 'right' (because I am new and learning all the time). looking at cat shows, it looks like exotic crosses are doing well. as I've said, ideally (as in my idea of the perfect BSH) looks like a BSH but perhaps with more open, larger eyes etc. I personally don't like the 'pinched' look which gskinner so accurately described but I do not have the experience that she does to know what a BSH should look like (hence this topic  )


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

we love bsh's said:


> I agree with that description D this is my old girl who was somewhat flatter faced.
> View attachment 128165
> 
> 
> ...


I think your girl is lovely too!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I personally don't like the 'pinched' look which gskinner so accurately described but I do not have the experience that she does to know what a BSH should look like (hence this topic )


In which case you'll steer clear of the look you don't like unless you wish to chase it because it's what's doing well on the bench. Just because a particular look becomes popular with certain judges doesn't mean it's right and any other look 'wrong' if it remains true to a standard of points. I know it can be a daunting prospect to trust your own judgement but I bet it's as good any other fallible human being


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## LittlePancakeTheExotic (Jun 17, 2013)

we love bsh's said:


> I agree with that description D this is my old girl who was somewhat flatter faced.
> View attachment 128165
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah see and I think she looks like my Pankee (who is obviously BSH x Persian being an Exotic). I know nothing of the breed only that I think mine looks of the same "type" as yours


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Exotics are not made by crossing brits with Persians - exotics are made by mating exotic to exotics. Many, many years ago Brits helped make exotic along with many other breeds but that isn't allowed any more and so a brit cross persian is NOT an exotic any more. It's not that easy. A cross like that is just a cross not a pedigree. If you want a exotic it needs to come form exotic parents (on both sides)


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Can I just ask what is probably a very stupid question?. With the difference in the faces is there not a high chance of having an overshot or undershot jaw, or does this not happen in cats?


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

havoc said:


> From when though? Persians now and when first used in BSH are probably very different  It's the thing people forget when considering the influence of an outcross breed.


Gccf registration policy still mentions out crosses, they weren't just used many years ago, the current peke face cats will be closely in some lines


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Gccf registration policy still mentions out crosses, they weren't just used many years ago


The point is that as an outcross (or foundation) breed becomes more extreme, using it will have a more extreme effect. The question for any breed is whether it's desirable. I happen to love your ocis, really love them. Would I love the look of your lines as much if you started outcrossing to an extreme Siamese? Not so sure


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

LittlePancakeTheExotic said:


> Yeah see and I think she looks like my Pankee (who is obviously BSH x Persian being an Exotic). I know nothing of the breed only that I think mine looks of the same "type" as yours


Is your boy a Persian crossed with a British Shorthair or a Exotic? My brain is fried tonight and I am not sure with what you wrote! 

I think that Exotics Shorthairs & British Shorthairs look different, especially the nose area, maybe sometimes slightly similar.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=e...iAhAeN1oCoBg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=673

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=e...biw=1366&bih=673#q=british+shorthair&tbm=isch


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## LittlePancakeTheExotic (Jun 17, 2013)

Taylorbaby said:


> Is your boy a Persian crossed with a British Shorthair or a Exotic? My brain is fried tonight and I am not sure with what you wrote!
> 
> I think that Exotics Shorthairs & British Shorthairs look different, especially the nose area, maybe sometimes slightly similar.
> 
> ...


Well who knows as I thought an Exotic WAS a mix of the two: bsh and persian or am I wrong?


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## LittlePancakeTheExotic (Jun 17, 2013)

spid said:


> Exotics are not made by crossing brits with Persians - exotics are made by mating exotic to exotics. Many, many years ago Brits helped make exotic along with many other breeds but that isn't allowed any more and so a brit cross persian is NOT an exotic any more. It's not that easy. A cross like that is just a cross not a pedigree. If you want a exotic it needs to come form exotic parents (on both sides)


Ahhh thanks that explains it!! I had just originally (back in May) did the google search on my breed thing and thats what came up so Ive thought this whole time it was a mix of the two, bit stupid considering both parents are Exotic 

Least I know more about him now, thanks


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

LittlePancakeTheExotic said:


> Ahhh thanks that explains it!! I had just originally (back in May) did the google search on my breed thing and thats what came up so Ive thought this whole time it was a mix of the two, bit stupid considering both parents are Exotic
> 
> Least I know more about him now, thanks


lol! :laugh: So he is registered as a exotic and both of his parents are exotics?


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## LittlePancakeTheExotic (Jun 17, 2013)

Taylorbaby said:


> lol! :laugh: So he is registered as a exotic and both of his parents are exotics?


Yes haha but I still think he looks like some of those bsh's that are in 'we love bsh' signature. #discombobulated


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

LittlePancakeTheExotic said:


> Yes haha but I still think he looks like some of those bsh's that are in 'we love bsh' signature. #discombobulated


That's because he's pet quality, not for showing or breeding - which isn't a bad thing, the Persian/Exotic breeders I know get longer nosed kittens at times, few and far between but it happens.
There are also breeders who only breed for the pet market, so all their breeding cats are longer nosed


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## LittlePancakeTheExotic (Jun 17, 2013)

spotty cats said:


> That's because he's pet quality, not for showing or breeding - which isn't a bad thing, the Persian/Exotic breeders I know get longer nosed kittens at times, few and far between but it happens.
> There are also breeders who only breed for the pet market, so all their breeding cats are longer nosed


Makes sense, to be honest he is just what I wanted, I am obviously extremely bias but just think his face is adorable, the perfect amount of 'grumpy old man' going on there.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

littlepancaketheexotic said:


> makes sense, to be honest he is just what i wanted, i am obviously extremely bias but just think his face is adorable, the perfect amount of 'grumpy old man' going on there.


he is hes lovely


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## NorthernDarkness (Jan 9, 2013)

A bit OT as I will now be talking about a Scottish Fold, but they're crossbred with BSH so... 
Anyway: My foldie Tomu has a strong EXO background from his mother's side (who is obviously a Scottish Fold). His dad was my BSH stud Kuura, who IMO had a bit too long nose (though judges never said anything about it). Tomu's mother has very short nose for a foldie and Tomu inherited that from her, he also has an underbite. 
I'll try to find a pic of Tomu's mom to show her nose.. She's after all a mix of folds, BSHs and EXOs.
Here she is, when she was visiting my stud:









Personally I see no reason for BSH/EXO crosses. There's really nothing to gain from them now, we already have all the colours from PER/EXO, good enough type and lots of breeding stock within the breed itself, so no need to outcross. 
I do however have Selkirk Rex in my BLH queen's lines due to her "new and rare" colour (black silver shaded point). I had to choose between the cross or inbreeding too high to my liking.. She's not 'pure enough' to be shown in TICA, but her kittens are. (They require 4 generations of Brits to be considered 'pure enough').


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