# Dog Attack



## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Me and the dogs were pootling along the road when a Staffie jumped over the gate out of it's garden and had a go at Bizkit. It's owners came running out of the house and tried to catch it but because it wasn't wearing a collar they couldn't grab it and ended up kicking hell out of it and that just made it more aggressive  I was on my bike & I had all my shopping in the trailer, so I was pretty much stuck there. During the attack the Staffie jumped up and bit my arm and I have two deep puncture wounds, one on each side of my left arm. Poor Bizkit has got about four puncture wounds in his front right leg. I've washed out our wounds with salt water and we're both bandaged up now.

I've rang the police and I'm waiting for them to come  Then we'll be off on a trip to the vet and a visit to Accident and Emergency.

I don't know what I want to happen to the dog, I'd rather it wasn't destroyed because it's not the dogs fault the owners didn't secure the garden. But I don't want it to happen to me again. They only live round the corner and I'm worried about walking/cycling past. Also they let the dog off lead on our local park (it's got no recall) it's had a go at Bizkit on the park a few times but when he's off lead he can get away from it, this time he stood no chance because he was leashed. Can I request for it to be only allowed in the back garden and muzzled in public?


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

If he's bitten you, then I personally think it should be PTS. what if a child was walking with his/her parents with a dog? would it bite the child like it bit you? it just doesn't bear thinking about. Its not the dog's fault, but the dog is a danger unfortantly.


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2011)

dogs fault or not,its a danger and needs to be pts,its sad,but you cant risk this happening to others.


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## mstori (May 22, 2009)

What a horrible situation. Do you know the owners of the dog? what did they say? Hope you are all ok


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I'm not sure what to advise, but I definitely think the police should be called & if Bizkit has any vet bills then the owner should pay them
They sound like irresponsible idiots who shouldn't own a dog
Hope you & your dogs are OK


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Couple of links to start with:

http://www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/pb13573-dogs-law-you-leaflet-080515.pdf

For enforcement the following can be used: 
http://www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/dogs-guide-enforcers.pdf

Of note:


> Section 3 creates a criminal offence of allowing any dog (i.e. of any breed or type) to be dangerously out of control in a public place or a place to where it is not allowed. A dog can be regarded as being dangerously out of control on any occasion where it causes fear or apprehension to a person 2 that it may injure them. Furthermore, if that dog does injure a person then the offence is aggravated. Legal action may be taken against the owner and/or the person in charge of the dog at the time.
> 
> This section should only be used in the most serious incidents investigated by enforcers, and generally it would be the police that would instigate proceedings under this section, however local authorities are able to act under this legislation also.


Once the police have been involved it is up to the them to do what they feel is applicable according to the law and guidance. "the most serious incidents" gives some leeway but as the victim, I don't think there is an equivalent of not pressing charges.

Unfortunately you have to consider.. what if this was a child walking their pet and was attacked.

I hate hearing things like this as I can see all sides of reasoning.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Seems like this dog went out of it's way to attack either human or dog so should be pts IMO - don't feel guilty as it'll probably do it to someone else anyway. When was the last time you had a tetanus Jab? because that's what you'll need if you haven't had one in a few years.

Awful experience for you and your dog, I hope you're both okay.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

That is pretty frightening; hope that you and bizkit are OK and your wounds are sorted soon.

As much as I like dogs, this one is a danger pure and simple if it bit you without provocation so I am also in the PTS camp.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Echo the tetanus.

To be honest, the police may not want or need you to give your preference: the CPS may proceed with pressing charges regardless in a case like this.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

No offense, but this was just one situation. 

To advise a dog be PTS after one attack is very ignorant. We do not know the dog's full temperament, what happened just at the moment of the attack and what the exact trigger was.

Good behaviour modification training may allow this dog to live a very happy life, so PTS should only be advised after a thourough temperament assessment of the dog and review of the owners' suitability to own a dog.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Given that the dog is allowed to run amok in the local park and has a history of DA. Also that the owners clearly didnt care enough to make their garden secure, not if the dog was able to jump over the gate then I think it might be curtains for the poor dog.
To bite a dog and a person badly enough to cause serious injury is not something to be taken lightly, although it sounds like the dog didnt have a chance to be trained properly..


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## thedogsmother (Aug 28, 2008)

In an ideal world this dog would be taken off the waste of space owners and given to someone who will train it and make sure it is always secure. Unfortunately that isnt ever going to happen, I think the dog whilst living in that situation is a danger and as such it should probably be pts, hopefully they will be banned from owning dogs which would be the right thing to stop this happening again but I doubt that would happen either. I hope you and Bizkit are ok and dont have any future run ins with this dog.


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## xbostonx (Dec 30, 2010)

Sorry to hear about your trauma and I hope you and your dog recover from it.

I personally think the dog should be taken off its owner as they are irresponsible and dont deserve a dog.
If this dog is given a second chance in a controled environment where it can be accessed and THEN FULLY TRAINED not just basic obediences this dog could make an excellent companion and pet.
Then if this dog shows behaviours whilst being accessed by a professional then it should be PTS.

A friend of mine rescued a Staffie that use to attach any person or dog that came near it, this was because it was beaten buy its drunk owner every time he came home p---ed. This dog who is now fully trained lives with his new owners there two teenage children who respect dogs and a cat.

All this dog needed was its basic needs met and to be loved.


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## Set_Nights (Sep 13, 2010)

Goblin said:


> Section 3 creates a criminal offence of allowing any dog (i.e. of any breed or type) to be dangerously out of control in a public place or a place to where it is not allowed. A dog can be regarded as being dangerously out of control on any occasion where it causes fear or apprehension to a person 2 that it may injure them. Furthermore, if that dog does injure a person then the offence is aggravated. Legal action may be taken against the owner and/or the person in charge of the dog at the time.
> 
> This section should only be used in the most serious incidents investigated by enforcers, and generally it would be the police that would instigate proceedings under this section, however local authorities are able to act under this legislation also.


Is this legislation not a bit vague ? Surely someone could claim they felt fear or apprehension just because they saw your dog?!! Especially in the case of larger or stereotyped breeds!


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

Get yourself and Bizkit seen to asap, I hope you both recover well and there are no long lasting effects for either of you.

I know you are worried about what might happen to the dog that attacked you, but you really must report it and leave it to the law to decide what to do.


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## tiggerthumper (Apr 22, 2011)

I hope you and Bizkit are okay, it must have been so scary for you.
One half of me says the dog should be pts, who's to say it won't be a child next time. But, the other half of me knows it is not the dogs fault, it's the owners. 
At the same time you can't risk not doing your duty and reporting it, it's an awful situation xox


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> No offense, but this was just one situation.
> 
> To advise a dog be PTS after one attack is very ignorant. We do not know the dog's full temperament, what happened just at the moment of the attack and what the exact trigger was.
> 
> Good behaviour modification training may allow this dog to live a very happy life, so PTS should only be advised after a thourough temperament assessment of the dog and review of the owners' suitability to own a dog.


if what was posted is correct,the dog attacked,unprovoked,it should be destroyed....end of story!


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

So sorry to hear your news - It must have been so frightening. 

Considering the owners let this dog run loose on the park etc you can't afford not to report this incident. Let the police decide what to do with the dog. You just take care of yourself and Bizkit.


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## smudgebiscuit (Jan 25, 2011)

Hope you & Bizkit are ok,what an awful thing to have happened x


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## mstori (May 22, 2009)

Just wondered if you had spoken to police and what they said?


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## Plymouth Pet Sitters (Jun 22, 2011)

Hope you are both ok, how awful for you. Yes let us know what the police have said. Seems like the owners should be banned from keeping dogs as they obviously have no control over him and no intention on training him properly, such a shame for the dog but like others have said it could be a child next time and luckily it wasn't any worse for you and Bizkit! It is especially bad as you say this dog has gone for your dog before, so he obviously is a danger and needs to be taken off his owners asap.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Thanks for the good wishes. Bizkit has been seen for first aid and pain meds and has to go back to the vet in the morning to see of they need to stitch the wounds. They could have kept him in but he wouldn't have got any more treatment before tomorrow morning so I decided to bring him home. He's sleeping now.

I have patched myself up and I'll go to see the doctor in the morning and see if I need any further treatment. I'm up to date with Tetanus shots, I've had so many that last time they said I wouldn't ever need to have another my whole life.

The police have been and taken photos of mine and Bizkits injuries. They have gone and warned the owner to keep the dog out of the front garden for now and will be back to see me on Tues to take a full statement and then decide what to do from there.

I am horrified by the thought of what could have happened if I'd had my grandchildren with me, they often hold one of the dogs leads (under my supervision of course).

I spoke to the owner just after it happened and asked if she would pay the vet bills but she said she cannot afford it luckily Bizkit is insured so I'll only have to pay the excess.

It really gets my goat that the poor dog is going to be the one to pay the price of it's owner's stupidity. It's a lovely thought that someone could remove the dog from the owner and rehabilitate it. But with the rescues full to bursting with Staffies already I think it's unlikely that one has the resources to deal with a dog like this, especially when there's so many for re-homing who don't have problems. To the dog's credit as soon as he realised he had bit me he let go. I don't think he meant to bite me, I just got in the way


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Set_Nights said:


> Is this legislation not a bit vague ? Surely someone could claim they felt fear or apprehension just because they saw your dog?!! Especially in the case of larger or stereotyped breeds!


I know.. that's the scary part. If your dog "looks mean" and someone complains, by the letter of the law it could be taken away and the owner punished. It's really up to the enforcement agencies to determine what "causes fear or apprehension to a person" and if it's justified. I know in Denmark their Banned Dog Breed laws has been used for something as trivial as neighborhood disputes. You have to prove your dog isn't a banned dog so people have called saying the neighbor's "boxer" is a dangerous breed dog and giving the neighbor lots of trouble. Would also be easy to do with the UK law. I guess that's getting away from the point of this thread though.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> No offense, but this was just one situation.
> 
> To advise a dog be PTS after one attack is very ignorant. We do not know the dog's full temperament, what happened just at the moment of the attack and what the exact trigger was.
> 
> Good behaviour modification training may allow this dog to live a very happy life, so PTS should only be advised after a thourough temperament assessment of the dog and review of the owners' suitability to own a dog.


I think if the police have much to do with it, it will be pts any way due to the DDA and "dangerously out of control in a public place" which it obviously was.

I love dogs and don't take their destruction lightly but if it had attacked me or one of my dogs or me i'm afraid I wouldn't be saying get it trained - i'd be bl**dy livid and aware that if it did it again trained or not, it could be to an innocent child with much worse consequences. At the end of the day it's a dog in the eye's of the public and this kind of aggression can not be tolerated, you have to put humans first regardless of how much we love dogs. If it were one of mine I would have to say the same but then it wouldn't be as I make sure my dogs are always under control and my garden escape proof - for their safety not anyone else's.


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## sparkie1984 (Sep 15, 2009)

Sorry to say but yes it should be PTS sadly.

I would hate for it to kill/injure another human adult/child.

The owners should also be PTS for being irresponsible morons


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Set_Nights said:


> Is this legislation not a bit vague ? Surely someone could claim they felt fear or apprehension just because they saw your dog?!! Especially in the case of larger or stereotyped breeds!


No, they couldn't. Dangerously out of control is defined as:

(a)it injures any person; or.

(b)there are grounds for reasonable apprehension that it will do so,.

They key thing here is the "reasonable apprehension" - simply being scared of a dog due to size, intimidating looks or a phobia is insufficient grounds to proceed on.


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## Set_Nights (Sep 13, 2010)

Snoringbear said:


> No, they couldn't. Dangerously out of control is defined as:
> 
> (a)it injures any person; or.
> 
> ...


Well that is good to know anyway  had me a bit worried for a bit there... you know the kind of numpties you sometimes see out and about!


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Hey  with all due respect if you'd like to debate the ins and outs of the DDA please start a thread on it, or add to one of the many threads on the subject already on this forum as it is off topic here 

*Deep Breath*

Any way. Bizkit has been to my usual vet this morning and they don't want to suture the wound because of the risk of infection and have given me pain killers and antibiotics for a week. I can go back if I am worried but if it heals and no signs of infection he should not need to be seen again.

The vet asked me the address where the dog lives and when I told her she said they have treated other dogs in the last year that this particular dog has attacked. Apparently it is well known for jumping over the gate and attacking passing dogs. Vet said is definitely the right thing to do in reporting it as it's just a matter of time before it kills a dog/seriously injures a child. The owner told me yesterday it had never done anything like this before and had never jumped the gate. What a liar!!!! My friend who I walk with said it's attacked loads of dogs on the park and everyone avoids it but it will run across the field and has no recall 

I'm still a bit shaken, very bruised and sore. I have an appointment with the Dr at 4pm and I imagine I will also get pain killers and antibiotics.

Took Biz in the pet shop next to the vet and he picked some pigs ears to bring home


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

metaldog said:


> *Deep Breath*
> 
> The vet asked me the address where the dog lives and when I told her she said they have treated other dogs in the last year that this particular dog has attacked. Apparently it is well known for jumping over the gate and attacking passing dogs. The owner told me yesterday it had never done anything like this before and had never jumped the gate. What a liar!!!! My friend who I walk with said it's attacked loads of dogs on the park and everyone avoids it but it will run across the field and has no recall
> 
> ...


Next time it could be child walking their dog past the gate maybe other people could give statements about the dog attacking theirs. Bloody irresponsible owner


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

simplysardonic said:


> Next time it could be child walking their dog past the gate maybe other people could give statements about the dog attacking theirs. Bloody irresponsible owner


True, there's a lovely little girl of about ten who walks her miniature poodle every day. We saw her on the way home from the vet today near where it happened. I often let my granddaughter, who's four, walk off in front with my little JR on the lead. Good job they weren't with me yesterday 

The vet said the can't report the dog themselves but will advise the police that it has attacked before.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

metaldog said:


> The vet asked me the address where the dog lives and when I told her she said they have treated other dogs in the last year that this particular dog has attacked. Apparently it is well known for jumping over the gate and attacking passing dogs. Vet said is definitely the right thing to do in reporting it as it's just a matter of time before it kills a dog/seriously injures a child. The owner told me yesterday it had never done anything like this before and had never jumped the gate. What a liar!!!! My friend who I walk with said it's attacked loads of dogs on the park and everyone avoids it but it will run across the field and has no recall


With this information, I would say it is more likely the dog should be PTS.

However, I don't think people should immediately say a dog should be PTS over an internet forum, when they know very little about the dog, owners, the actual attack and the triggers.

Every dog can bite if in the wrong situation, but we need to weigh up the evidence before advising a dog be PTS.


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## Paula07 (Aug 23, 2010)

Personally i think the dog should be rehomed to a responsible owner. I dont think the dog should be PTS because of the owners.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Its sad to see that one act may have the dog put to sleep. Fair enough it was a violent and dangerous act but the owners should be the ones responsible for not securing their pet. 

End of the day we all have dogs and dogs will always have a wild instinct buried somewhere no matter how friendly they are and thats the risk we take when owning such an animal.

In these situation the pet should be re-homed and the owners put behind bars and banned from ever owning pets again.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Paula07 said:


> Personally i think the dog should be rehomed to a responsible owner. I dont think the dog should be PTS because of the owners.


If only that could happen, but the rescues here are full to bursting with staffies.

I won't know until tomorrow what the police action will be. I have had to go past the house several times today and the dog has not been in the garden. I'm quite a brave woman but I have felt scared every time I've approached the area in case it gets out and gets me again 

I've been to the Dr and got some antibiotics and my bruises have come out in glorious purple today. I've taken photos of my arm and Bizkit's leg but not sure whether to post them or not


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> Its sad to see that one act may have the dog put to sleep. Fair enough it was a violent and dangerous act but the owners should be the ones responsible for not securing their pet.
> 
> End of the day we all have dogs and dogs will always have a wild instinct buried somewhere no matter how friendly they are and thats the risk we take when owning such an animal.
> 
> In these situation the pet should be re-homed and the owners put behind bars and banned from ever owning pets again.


It's beginning to look like it's not a one off incident. The vet has heard of the dog attacking before and so have several dog walkers on our local park. I agree that the owners should be the ones responsible for securing their pet, but in a case like this where they clearly aren't doing anything to control the dog despite numerous attacks then what?


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## sparkie1984 (Sep 15, 2009)

metaldog said:


> It's beginning to look like it's not a one off incident. The vet has heard of the dog attacking before and so have several dog walkers on our local park. I agree that the owners should be the ones responsible for securing their pet, but in a case like this where they clearly aren't doing anything to control the dog despite numerous attacks then what?


I'm sorry but that dog should be PTS..

if it has attacked multiple people/animals its a matter or time until it kills/seriously injures and thats the end of it.

and yes the owners should get a good slap too, but unfortunately they'll get off scott free and own another staffie by the end of the week


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## tillymax (Jun 27, 2011)

if it has bitten you...next week it could be attached two a three year olds face. Although it is not the dogs fault I suggest it is PTS and you request that the owners are banned from keeping dogs in the future


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

A simple slap for the owners honestly is not good enough people get away with far too much these days just because we are human.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

tillymax said:


> if it has bitten you...next week it could be attached two a three year olds face. Although it is not the dogs fault I suggest it is PTS and you request that the owners are banned from keeping dogs in the future


That's what worries me.

Sorry I should have mentioned previously they already own another dog, he's a Westie and is a lovely little dog who never causes any bother.


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## sparkie1984 (Sep 15, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> A simple slap for the owners honestly is not good enough people get away with far too much these days just because we are human.


I was using slap as a generic term, not literally a slap


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## tillymax (Jun 27, 2011)

metaldog said:


> That's what worries me.
> 
> Sorry I should have mentioned previously they already own another dog, he's a Westie and is a lovely little dog who never causes any bother.


true but owning a bull breed is very diffrent from a westie. Give them a inch and they take a mile (dont I know it, I have one that can run 40 mile per hour as my lurcher has bull in her)


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## kirk68 (Apr 19, 2011)

Just read right through this thread. Firstly, I hope that you and bizkit make full and speedy recoveries and that there is no lasting damage. Secondly, I agree that the police will probably press for the dog to be PTS as it has attacked numerous others before getting you and your dog.

IMO the owners should have the westie removed (because even small dogs can become nasty without the proper care and attention) and should be banned from keeping animals.

Get well soon and give bizkit (((hugs))) from me.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

I'm so sorry you had to experience this and I hope you and Bizkit soon make a full recovery.

I think you have done the right thing informing the police and now it should be left to them to decide on what is the correct course of action.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Rottiefan said:


> No offense, but this was just one situation.
> 
> To advise a dog be PTS after one attack is very ignorant. We do not know the dog's full temperament, what happened just at the moment of the attack and what the exact trigger was.
> 
> Good behaviour modification training may allow this dog to live a very happy life, so PTS should only be advised after a thourough temperament assessment of the dog and review of the owners' suitability to own a dog.


Sorry, but I think this is one of the most irresponsible posts I have seen.

I do hope that the OP and Biskit recover and that the poor Staffie is pts very soon before it inflicts damage on anyone else.
Not sure I agree their westie should be taken away though.


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## sheriffjonny (Jun 23, 2011)

Blitz said:


> Sorry, but I think this is one of the most irresponsible posts I have seen.
> 
> I do hope that the OP and Biskit recover and that the poor Staffie is pts very soon before it inflicts damage on anyone else.
> Not sure I agree their westie should be taken away though.


What is irresponsible about that? The comment was made quite early on in this thread, before all the details were know, and Rottiefan commented again further on in the post to say they agreed with pts, but only after hearing the full story/background of the dog. That seems to be to me one of the most resposible and sensible posts in this thread. In fact i feel your post is a bit wrong, you criticize Rottiefan for calling for all the details and to not act hastily, so you obviously feel the dog should be pts, but you can't decide whether you think the owners who made the staffy the way it is should be allowed to keep other dogs, that's baffling to me


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

Glad to hear you and Bizkit are doing OK now.

Good luck with the police when they next visit


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

So sorry to hear this. Glad you & Bizkit weren't to badly hurt. What irresponsible owners, how could they let this happen several times?!


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2011)

A dog like this can make a perfect pet with the right guidence.

The person should be fined and locked up for what has happened to you both. 

I think the dog should be sent to a hardcore trainer who knows how to deal with him. POOR DOG paying price for stupid owner again

If i didnt have cats i would take this dog on in a heart beat and retrain him. Bet you any money in the world it wouldnt bite again *precautions should be taken none the less*


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## Nekkyousha (Jun 24, 2011)

So sorry to hear about this, it makes me sick that this dog will suffer because it has not had the correct training but what may be done, must be done


Ugh I just wish I had the money to open up a business which would take in aggressive dogs and atleast give them a second chance to be correctly trained and live happy lives before being forced to visit those pearly dog gates. A dog that attacks unprovoked must be leading a very distressful life with a lot of confusion. Actually I wanted to go into dog training anyway... This may be something I look in to. I've seen what wonders trainers can do with dog that would attack anything. 

Glad u two are ok though! Must have been frightening! A staffie off leash attacked my mal inthe middle of the city centre!! Only a couple months ago. I was helpless and terrified. The dog got her back and latched on so even he was off the ground! Poor kishka couldnt do anything and I was too scared of getting my hand taken off. The owners couldn't even control him, they finally got him and left without a sorry. I was stood there almost in tears. Staffs scare me (not to stereotype them all) but many bad owners have staffs here and purposely neglect them cuz it's a fashion accessory to have a vicious dog


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## Honey Bee (Mar 29, 2011)

I am very relieved to hear that you and Bizkit are recovering well. Unfortunately its not just the physical effects but the mental and emotional ones too. I hope that Bizkit is not put off other dogs and you both make a full recovery.

Having heard that this dog has attacked before and you have evidence from a vet to support this, I personally would say there is little alternative than to PTS. I would feel very unsafe living in a neighbourhood with this dog if nothing is done. You have done the right thing for everyone concerned and I also hope the Police prosecute the owners. 

Until you have been bitten by a strange dog and it has inflicted injuries you cannot know what it is like. I was out riding my bike and was bitten by a GSD that ignored my husband but bit me on my behind. It was an unprovoked incident and the dog was off lead. Although the skin was broken and bled and heavily bruised I decided not to press for the PTS option as the owner was so apologetic and upset and promised it wouldn't happen again. I was on holiday and I did not live in the area. I still sometimes wonder if I did the right thing. I am aware that the Police spoke to her. You have to do what you feel is right in your situation. 

Sending hugs. x


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Blitz said:


> Sorry, but I think this is one of the most irresponsible posts I have seen.
> 
> I do hope that the OP and Biskit recover and that the poor Staffie is pts very soon before it inflicts damage on anyone else.
> Not sure I agree their westie should be taken away though.


What's irresponsible about my post, exactly, Blitz? Do you know the dog? Do you have a thorough understanding of the situation and the dog's temperament?

When I heard that the dog had attacked a number of times, I said that the dog probably should be PTS (hopefully not, if it can be avoided).

To me, the most irresponsible thing is to advise a dog should be PTS indefinitely after being told about one incident. Until an assessment and investigation is carried out, it's not appropriate to make those kinds of judgements immediately.


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2011)

I was confronted by a rottie a few weeks back. It didnt bite me as i dont have a dog but what would it of been like if i had?

I was walking to town and saw a rottie and heard it snarling under the bridge and a girl nearly bowled me over coming from the other direction trying to get aay from it. 

The dog had walked away by that time but as i walked closer it turned, ran towards me and started barking snapping and snarling at me. 

I carried on walking and growled/shouted at him as i did so and he walked off.

If i had a dog with me there would of been a fight. 

Now was this the dogs fault? NOPE. Owner? YEP.

I live in a sorta rough area where lads tend to have trophey dogs.

Its horrible thinking what those dogs lives must be like.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> So sorry to hear this. Glad you & Bizkit weren't to badly hurt. *What irresponsible owners, how could they let this happen several times?! *


I know the mind just boggles, apparently they always say he's never done anything like this before 



Howldaloom said:


> A dog like this can make a perfect pet with the right guidence.
> 
> The person should be fined and locked up for what has happened to you both.
> 
> ...





Nekkyousha said:


> So sorry to hear about this, it makes me sick that this dog will suffer because it has not had the correct training but what may be done, must be done
> 
> Ugh I just wish I had the money to open up a business which would take in aggressive dogs and atleast give them a second chance to be correctly trained and live happy lives before being forced to visit those pearly dog gates. A dog that attacks unprovoked must be leading a very distressful life with a lot of confusion. Actually I wanted to go into dog training anyway... This may be something I look in to. I've seen what wonders trainers can do with dog that would attack anything.


It would be a wonderful world if that was what was to happen. If anyone were to take the dog on though I would insist it be muzzled in public from now on. I would be terrified if I came across it unmuzzled again 



Nekkyousha said:


> Glad u two are ok though! Must have been frightening! A staffie off leash attacked my mal inthe middle of the city centre!! Only a couple months ago. I was helpless and terrified. The dog got her back and latched on so even he was off the ground! Poor kishka couldnt do anything and I was too scared of getting my hand taken off. The owners couldn't even control him, they finally got him and left without a sorry. I was stood there almost in tears. Staffs scare me (not to stereotype them all) but many bad owners have staffs here and purposely neglect them cuz it's a fashion accessory to have a vicious dog


How frightening for you both. Was your dog ok? This staffie had hold of Bizkit by his front leg and he was screaming blue murder  On a bright note, my friend has a Staffie and he's Bizkit's best mate so I know they're not all bad. There's hundreds of Staffs round here and it's only a few that are out of control.



Honey Bee said:


> I am very relieved to hear that you and Bizkit are recovering well. Unfortunately its not just the physical effects but the mental and emotional ones too. I hope that Bizkit is not put off other dogs and you both make a full recovery.
> 
> Having heard that this dog has attacked before and you have evidence from a vet to support this, I personally would say there is little alternative than to PTS. I would feel very unsafe living in a neighbourhood with this dog if nothing is done. You have done the right thing for everyone concerned and I also hope the Police prosecute the owners.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the hugs. OMG that must have been such a shock to have been bitten like that  Has it made you nervous of GSDs? I'm a bit of a nervous wreck at the moment and I'm hoping it will fade with time. I'm so glad my mate has the friendliest Staffie in the world who can help me get over this.

In this case I think the owners are to blame for the dog being able to escape and it being allowed off lead on the park. However, not all dogs who are dog aggressive are the owners fault. I also blame breeding willy nilly from dogs with poor/aggressive temperaments and the issue doesn't always show itself in the pups until maturity. Then some poor novice owner has this insanely aggressive animal and no clue how to control it. IMO any dog who is either human or dog aggressive should be spayed/neutered so not allowed to pass the trait on to another generation.



Howldaloom said:


> I was confronted by a rottie a few weeks back. It didnt bite me as i dont have a dog but what would it of been like if i had?
> 
> I was walking to town and saw a rottie and heard it snarling under the bridge and a girl nearly bowled me over coming from the other direction trying to get aay from it.
> 
> ...


I can assure you if you'd had a dog or got bitten it would have been terrifying and painful 

It's not fair to pick on the trophy dogs lads here because the couple who own the dog in question are in their 60s. I meet loads of young lads round here, who could be describes as Chavs, with Staffies, Rotties etc and they are brilliant & responsible dog owners.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

One attack is one too many in my opinion but any more and it's a def pts as far as i'm concerned. There are many staffies in rescue who haven't done anything wrong who are pts daily - if you want to open a centre to help staffs help those ones, the ones who deserve to be helped.

It sickens me how people who have never suffered an attack at the jaws of a dog can judge how others who have should react. A dog of mine was killed by a dog and I find it insulting to his memory that some can say dogs like this deserve a second chance when my poor boy had his throat ripped out and stood no chance at all. Just like this young Mal did recently - take a look, imagine this was your innocent puppy and tell me the attacker deserves a second chance. Get real!!!
Killer dog savaged family puppy in attack at Rimrose Valley Park - Crosby Herald


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2011)

Yes but these lads hit their dogs and yank them about in the street. I see nothing wrong with your average lad with a staffie if he is nice to the dog.


But the lads i see have a dog in one hand and a young boy in the other and he kicks the dog and smacks the kids whilst shouting and spitting at both of them.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Malmum said:


> One attack is one too many in my opinion but any more and it's a def pts as far as i'm concerned. There are many staffies in rescue who haven't done anything wrong who are pts daily - if you want to open a centre to help staffs help those ones, the ones who deserve to be helped.
> 
> It sickens me how people who have never suffered an attack at the jaws of a dog can judge how others who have should react. A dog of mine was killed by a dog and I find it insulting to his memory that some can say dogs like this deserve a second chance when my poor boy had his throat ripped out and stood no chance at all. Just like this young Mal did recently - take a look, imagine this was your innocent puppy and tell me the attacker deserves a second chance. Get real!!!
> Killer dog savaged family puppy in attack at Rimrose Valley Park - Crosby Herald


That's right if anyone on here's dog was killed like that poor pup and your little dog they'd want the dog PTS. I'm so glad Bizkit kept putting himself between Pippi and the out of control staff, she only weighs 6 kg and Bizkit probably saved her life yesterday. He's such a good big little brother 

Now I know the dogs history I think PTS is the best and safest option. I'm not sorry if this offends anyone. I was there and I know how frightening it was for all of us :scared:


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Howldaloom said:


> Yes but these lads hit their dogs and yank them about in the street. I see nothing wrong with your average lad with a staffie if he is nice to the dog.
> 
> But the lads i see have a dog in one hand and a young boy in the other and he kicks the dog and smacks the kids whilst shouting and spitting at both of them.


That's terrible, but not the type of owner in this case though.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

metaldog said:


> That's right if anyone on here's dog was killed like that poor pup and your little dog they'd want the dog PTS. I'm so glad Bizkit kept putting himself between Pippi and the out of control staff, she only weighs 6 kg and Bizkit probably saved her life yesterday. He's such a good big little brother
> 
> Now I know the dogs history I think PTS is the best and safest option. I'm not sorry if this offends anyone. I was there and I know how frightening it was for all of us :scared:


You shouldn't be sorry if it offends anyone. If i'd known who owned the dog that killed mine i'd have had no qualms in killing it myself but it was out on it's own. My dog was 11 years old, grew up with my kids and our rabbits who ran with him in the garden and our duck and this evil dog took him away from all of us, just ran straight up and attacked. To this day I wish I could have done something to it, animal instinct on his part I know but a loyal friend on my part who didn't deserve to bleed to death in the street!


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Maybe muzzling all dogs in public should be made a legal requirement. Its bad how that young pup was killed but muzzling dogs is more humane than putting them down. 

Staffies were originally bred for bloodsports and fighting so that trait will always be somewhere in the staffies genetics. My Akita is adorable but that breed was also designed to fight and kill...the potential is always there to cause serious harm.

Does this make these breeds dangerous dogs? No it doesnt, the way we raise them makes them who they are..gentle or dangerous.

The only way to reduce dogs being put to sleep or dogs being banned in this country is to muzzle all dogs when out in public..its sensible and responsible and most of all humane.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Malmum said:


> One attack is one too many in my opinion but any more and it's a def pts as far as i'm concerned. There are many staffies in rescue who haven't done anything wrong who are pts daily - if you want to open a centre to help staffs help those ones, the ones who deserve to be helped.
> 
> It sickens me how people who have never suffered an attack at the jaws of a dog can judge how others who have should react. A dog of mine was killed by a dog and I find it insulting to his memory that some can say dogs like this deserve a second chance when my poor boy had his throat ripped out and stood no chance at all. Just like this young Mal did recently - take a look, imagine this was your innocent puppy and tell me the attacker deserves a second chance. Get real!!!
> Killer dog savaged family puppy in attack at Rimrose Valley Park - Crosby Herald


Attacks are relative. There's no one-size-fits-all dog attack, so just because this incident happened, it doesn't mean that the Staffy that attacked Bizkit would ever have the incentive of doing the same amount of damage.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> No offense, but this was just one situation.
> 
> To advise a dog be PTS after one attack is very ignorant. We do not know the dog's full temperament, what happened just at the moment of the attack and what the exact trigger was.
> 
> Good behaviour modification training may allow this dog to live a very happy life, so PTS should only be advised after a thourough temperament assessment of the dog and review of the owners' suitability to own a dog.


I have to agree with you on this one! but the OP did say that the dog had attacked previously on the park, and remind that it is an offence to have a dog out of control in a public area - for the dogs own safety the owners need to adhere to the stipulation the any dog as such needs to wear a muzzle at all times when out of the home., whether on private property or not

hope you are ok OP


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Malmum said:


> One attack is one too many in my opinion but any more and it's a def pts as far as i'm concerned.


I agree entirely and if a dog kills another in a witnesssed unprovoked attack, then it should be pts immediately, no second chances.

In my opinion.


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## LolaRose2010 (Mar 28, 2011)

I hope your ok after such a frightening attack, i havent read through all of the post but i jus though id say: a couple years ago, my brother was 11 he was attacked badly by a pit bull it was off a lead an run straight up to him grabbing his leg and not letting go even when over 5 people were trying to get it off my poor little brother, it finally let go when my mums own 11 year old staffy came out & bit the pit bulls ear:: this has scared him inside and out and all of our familyy that saw the attack,, we later found out by the police the same dog attacked a young school boy around the corner from our house the day before!!! this could of been stopped but i dont think the school boy reported it, it is really sad seeing dogs treated like crap by young & older owners i think its 100% the owners fault if you love your dog it will show you all the love in the world sadly our staffy had 2 be PTS a year after due to illness, i will love her always! 
i really hope your attack wont leave you emotionally scarred as my brother it took him over a year to leave the house alone, and i hope your dog is ok aswell. 
all the best


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> I agree entirely and if a dog kills another in a witnesssed unprovoked attack, then it should be pts immediately, no second chances.
> 
> In my opinion.


What do you class as unprovoked though? Is it the dog with a high prey drive who kills a small dog mistaking it for prey? Is it the dog of any breed that experiences sudden predatory drift? Is it the DA dog who was attacked before and is only getting in there first?

It's a much more complicated issue then just PTS after an attack. In the case of repeated attacks when it has been proven that the owners will not take appropriate action to manage the behaviour and it's unlikely to be re-homed to a responsible family then PTS is the only option. One attack however is not enough information to make a decision on though - especially if the dog has a responsible owner who can take steps to manage it.

Also Metaldog - hugs to you and Bizkit, I hope both of you heal quickly.


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

I think what all this debate shows us is that deciding whether or not to pts a dog involved in an attack should be left to the professionals.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

L/C said:


> *What do you class as unprovoked though?* Is it the dog with a high prey drive who kills a small dog mistaking it for prey? Is it the dog of any breed that experiences sudden predatory drift? Is it the DA dog who was attacked before and is only getting in there first?
> 
> It's a much more complicated issue then just PTS after an attack. In the case of repeated attacks when it has been proven that the owners will not take appropriate action to manage the behaviour and it's unlikely to be re-homed to a responsible family then PTS is the only option. One attack however is not enough information to make a decision on though - especially if the dog has a responsible owner who can take steps to manage it.
> 
> Also Metaldog - hugs to you and Bizkit, I hope both of you heal quickly.


Exactly. I posted at the weekend regarding my OH's friend pinning Roxy down (he thought he was CM  ) She was already starting to get wound up with him & I had to step in & tell him to leave her alone (several times). If I hadn't of done so & let things escalate which may have resulted in her biting him (he really couldn't understand what he was doing wrong), then in his eyes this would have been an unprovoked attack - in mine it would have been justified as she was starting to display signs that she was not comfortable with his behaviour.

Sorry, if this has gone off topic. The dog in question obviously had a history of aggression & if th owners were aware of this & still chose to allow their dog to gain access to people & other dogs then they are clearly irresponsible. The dog is obviously a danger & shoudln't be with people who can allow this to continue. But I don't think that one incident can determine that a dog loses it's life, there may be many reasons why a dog attacks & I don't believe can can have a blanket statement in these cases


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## Nekkyousha (Jun 24, 2011)

metaldog said:


> It would be a wonderful world if that was what was to happen. If anyone were to take the dog on though I would insist it be muzzled in public from now on. I would be terrified if I came across it unmuzzled again
> 
> How frightening for you both. Was your dog ok? This staffie had hold of Bizkit by his front leg and he was screaming blue murder  On a bright note, my friend has a Staffie and he's Bizkit's best mate so I know they're not all bad. There's hundreds of Staffs round here and it's only a few that are out of control.


luckily kishka has such thick skin that he didn't puncture it, though she was definitely spooked afterwards. Even when she needs injections, she never feels a thing. But I have her on a short chain lead for training so she couldn't even turn around to get him. I was weary of letting her off leash again thinking she would think all dogs are like this, but the next day she had a good play in the park with a staffie called blue and she just loved him. Though she is now extremelly aggressive (without intention to attack) with dogs whilst she is on the lead! Like a defines. Off the lead she trusts them wholly. But it has had some negative mental effects on her.


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## Nekkyousha (Jun 24, 2011)

Helbo said:


> I think what all this debate shows us is that deciding whether or not to pts a dog involved in an attack should be left to the professionals.


The problem is, is that it's never a debate! The result 90% of the time is have the dog pts as it saves hassle and many a mindset is 'it's just a dog and there's millions of dogs, why give this one special training and care' sad truth but whenever there's a story here of a dog who has bitten, they are pts and that's that.... Always. I think the system needs outsiders like us raising these debates to make decisions less easy as it were.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

L/C said:


> What do you class as unprovoked though? Is it the dog with a high prey drive who kills a small dog mistaking it for prey? Is it the dog of any breed that experiences sudden predatory drift? Is it the DA dog who was attacked before and is only getting in there first?
> 
> It's a much more complicated issue then just PTS after an attack. In the case of repeated attacks when it has been proven that the owners will not take appropriate action to manage the behaviour and it's unlikely to be re-homed to a responsible family then PTS is the only option. One attack however is not enough information to make a decision on though - especially if the dog has a responsible owner who can take steps to manage it.
> 
> Also Metaldog - hugs to you and Bizkit, I hope both of you heal quickly.


Agree totally. The reality of it is though, a dog never attacks without provocation or reason, it's just that humans generally can't see it. In the most serious attacks on humans, the dogs always get PTS pretty much immediately without any actual investigation into the triggers that provoked the attack. Seems odd to go to a crime scene and then immediately destroy the main piece of evidence, that's perhaps why we never learn anything from these incidents.

Ian Dunbar has some interesting points on dog aggression. When dogs fight, there is generally no intention to kill the other, just to win, humans are the same. It seems to be hardwired. That's why they tend to go for the neck and head where the chance of fatal damage is low. The quickest way for a dog to kill another is to go for the stomach and disembowel it.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

It is generally a case that owners never really get punished as it's too easy to place blame on the dog. A few cases, media sensationalized, where the owner of a dog is punished and a dog "found innocent" would do wonders for owners taking responsibility for their dogs. It will not happen though. Media sensationalization only really occurs when it's a dangerous dog breed (it's the breeds fault). In addition, the legal punishment for bad owners can be classified, in my view, as a joke.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> Agree totally. *The reality of it is though, a dog never attacks without provocation or reason, it's just that humans generally can't see it.*


I dispute your statement. A dog *seldom* attacks without provocation or reason.

The reality is the attack on me and Bizkit on Sunday was completely unprovoked. This dog is known for attacking other dogs without provocation. It attacked Bizkit over 18 months ago it just ran up to him and started biting him. It will see a dog half a mile away on the park and run off from it's owner to fight the dog.

Until you have been on the receiving end of a painful dog bite or watched your dog get trashed in front of you, you do not know how scary it is.

I had a dog for 17 years who was dog aggressive, he would attack all male dogs without provocation or reason. I kept him on a leash for his whole life so everyone else's dogs would be safe. That's him in my signature.



Goblin said:


> It is generally a case that owners never really get punished as it's too easy to place blame on the dog. A few cases, media sensationalized, where the owner of a dog is punished and a dog "found innocent" would do wonders for owners taking responsibility for their dogs. It will not happen though. Media sensationalization only really occurs when it's a dangerous dog breed (it's the breeds fault). In addition, the legal punishment for bad owners can be classified, in my view, as a joke.


While I do understand that it's the stupid owners who play a part I cannot see how this dog can be 'found innocent' my arm is a mess and my dog's leg is even worse.

I'm trying not to take your responses personally but you must see that they could be considered insensitive on a thread by someone who has been attacked by an out of control dog 

*deep breath*

Any way. A police man has been to see me this morning. He is going to make further enquiries regarding the dog's history. He has said the options are:

To involve the RSPCA and educate the owners, insist the dog is no longer allowed in the front garden unsupervised and must be muzzled in public.

Or I can press charges and the owner will be prosecuted for having a dangerously out of control dog which will probably result in the dog being PTS.

The police will get back to me in the next couple of days and then I need to tell them my decision.

I don't think that DA dogs should be PTS but this dog has bitten me and has the potential to bite another human, which is just not on.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Snoringbear said:


> Agree totally. The reality of it is though, a dog never attacks without provocation or reason, it's just that humans generally can't see it. In the most serious attacks on humans, the dogs always get PTS pretty much immediately without any actual investigation into the triggers that provoked the attack. Seems odd to go to a crime scene and then immediately destroy the main piece of evidence, that's perhaps why we never learn anything from these incidents.
> 
> Ian Dunbar has some interesting points on dog aggression. When dogs fight, there is generally no intention to kill the other, just to win, humans are the same. It seems to be hardwired. That's why they tend to go for the neck and head where the chance of fatal damage is low. The quickest way for a dog to kill another is to go for the stomach and disembowel it.


Apparently sometimes all it can take is a slight movement of the ears for another dog to go into attack mode if it was to see that (dog whisperer lol).

I dont want to sound rude to the OP but maybe Bizkit has a tendency to wind up dogs by something we cant perceive...i read your other thread about a GSD charging for your dog too about a year ago and you said you live in an area with rough dogs...maybe avoiding the dogs that you know are a little crazy is a better option?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> Apparently sometimes all it can take is a slight movement of the ears for another dog to go into attack mode if it was to see that (dog whisperer lol).
> 
> I dont want to sound rude to the OP but maybe Bizkit has a tendency to wind up dogs by something we cant perceive...i read your other thread about a GSD charging for your dog too about a year ago and you said you live in an area with rough dogs...maybe avoiding the dogs that you know are a little crazy is a better option?


So another incident a year ago indicates Bizkit 'has a tendancy to wind dogs up' ???? I can't see that

It's not always easy to avoid certain dogs, I know as I have a reactive dog so have to plan my walks. There are certain areas that you just can't avoid or aren't aware of avoiding until an incident happens.

My dog was attacked a while ago although nothing like as serious as this & it really is a shocking thing to happen. Again it was due to owners who were already aware of their dogs aggression yet still chose to let her off the lead in a public area. I also made a complaint to the police as I could see something similar happening again


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> Apparently sometimes all it can take is a slight movement of the ears for another dog to go into attack mode if it was to see that (dog whisperer lol).
> 
> I dont want to sound rude to the OP but maybe Bizkit has a tendency to wind up dogs by something we cant perceive...i read your other thread about a GSD charging for your dog too about a year ago and you said you live in an area with rough dogs...maybe avoiding the dogs that you know are a little crazy is a better option?


What a great idea  I'll just stay at home and never go out as if I go one way there's the GSD and if I got the other there's the crazy Staffie. I cannot believe how rude your post is. To imply that is is somehow my dog, who is trained and on a leash, is at fault when he is being attacked by out of control dogs :nono: I suppose if I go out wearing a short skirt and I get raped that would be my own fault too


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> Attacks are relative. There's no one-size-fits-all dog attack, so just because this incident happened, it doesn't mean that the Staffy that attacked Bizkit would ever have the incentive of doing the same amount of damage.


Have you any idea of the strength behind a Staffies jaws? It could kill even without intent, just as one of my Mals could in the same situation. I'm not knocking Staffs, had many myself and worked in Staff rescue for six years so I care about the breed but I have no doubt about their potential and have seen such. I'm not a "Staffist" but what ever dog attacks should be pts as far as i'm concerned, owners fault it may be but certainly not the dog it attacks fault or it's owners.

Save the dogs who deserve to be saved as hundreds of these poor mites are destroyed every day!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

metaldog said:


> What a great idea  I'll just stay at home and never go out as if I go one way there's the GSD and if I got the other there's the crazy Staffie. I cannot believe how rude your post is. To imply that is is somehow my dog, who is trained and on a leash, is at fault when he is being attacked by out of control dogs :nono: I suppose if I go out wearing a short skirt and I get raped that would be my own fault too


When Roxy was attacked a few weeks ago (she was under control & on a lead) the owner of the other dog still blamed her  I have no idea why, we simply walked past & this little dog flew at us. Roxy could have killed it but luckly she just pinned it down to stop it attacking her - really restrained for her considering the problems we have had.

It was a horrible experience which luckily (apart from some minor bites to Roxy - saved by her mass of hair!) neither of us was badly injured. it still shook me up though so it must be dreadful for you & Bizkit

Whilst I agree that dogs rarely attack without provocation I can't see the provocation being made by Bizkit at all. When we first bought Roxy home she was fine settling in but then started attacking Toby in the evenings. There was no obvious reason for this & we never did really get to understand why.

Toby wouldn't be near Roxy, there were not toys involved, neither of them was getting/not getting affection, there was no bad feeling previously, etc but something was setting her off. I tried to understand these attacks but although I gathered there must be an underlying reason for them there was no way that Toby was instigating them or giving any signals as he was alseep nearly every time they happened.

Luckily we managed these incident & did lots of training with the dogs in the evening, kept Roxy leashed & learnt to read her body language more. These attacks stopped after a while luckily & they get on great now


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> So another incident a year indicates Bizkit 'has a tendancy to wind dogs up' ???? I can't see that
> 
> It's not always easy to avoid certain dogs, I know as I have a reactive dog so have to plan my walks. There are certain areas that you just can't avoid or are aware of avoiding until an incident happens.
> 
> My dog was attacked a while ago although nothing like as serious as this & it really is a shocking thing to happen. Again it was due to owners who were already aware of their dogs aggression yet still chose to let her off the lead in a public area. I also made a complaint to the police as I could see something similar happening again


Its not easy to avoid areas but a planned walk like yours minimises the risk..and it saves another dog from being destroyed just because of the owners.

Im sure i read the owners are in their 60s so probably would listen to advice and guidance on stopping their dog causing further damage..prevention in the future is a much better option than destroying animals. Would we give a death sentence to someone who went and beat someone up?? Although serious we wouldnt hang them for it?

All im saying is for a dog to be attacked a number of times in the space of a year by different dogs then the balance of probabilities would suggest that something about it sets other dogs off.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> Its not easy to avoid areas but a planned walk like yours minimises the risk..and it saves another dog from being destroyed just because of the owners.
> 
> Im sure i read the owners are in their 60s so probably would listen to advice and guidance on stopping their dog causing further damage..prevention in the future is a much better option than destroying animals. Would we give a death sentence to someone who went and beat someone up?? Although serious we wouldnt hang them for it?
> 
> All im saying is for a dog to be attacked a number of times in the space of a year by different dogs then the balance of probabilities would suggest that something about it sets other dogs off.


And what about the *fact* that the other dog bit me. DO I do something to set other dogs upon me?

It's not really relevant to my thread anyway, so please keep your (very speculative and based on no facts whatsoever) opinions out of it.

Even if my dog did do something to set another dog off we have the right to walk the streets unhindered and in no way should a dog be allowed to attack dogs walking past. Both these incidents have occurred when my dogs have been on leads and fully under my control, the aggressor in both cases is an un-neutered male who is allowed in their front gardens unsupervised and both are well known for attacking dogs. Where the GSD lives hasn't even got a fence! The GSD had attacked many dogs and bit two people previous to it knocking me off my bike and attacking my dogs.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Sorry but this is a thread on a public forum so all members have a right to post their opinion. If you dont like opinions then dont make your incidents public.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> Sorry but this is a thread on a public forum so all members have a right to post their opinion. If you dont like opinions then dont make your incidents public.


But you are off topic...this thread is not about my dog's behaviour, nor is it to ask for opinions on how users thought the attack happened. 

I notice you did not respond to my other post about the fact that the dog also bit me


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

This is a personal example of provocation. I have a dog that will charge at other dogs on sight if she were not on-lead, although she'll only bark at a safe distance at them once and not actually bite, it's still an aggressive response. That would look entirely unprovoked to most people. What's the provocation? - Fear. She's always been scared of pretty much everything and everyone and was terrorised by off lead friendly dogs chasing her about until one day she decided to turn round and have a go at one. Now she has a new learned behaviour to respond to a negative situation which results in a positive outcome.


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## Plymouth Pet Sitters (Jun 22, 2011)

metaldog said:


> Even if my dog did do something to set another dog off we have the right to walk the streets unhindered and in no way should a dog be allowed to attack dogs walking past. Both these incidents have occurred when my dogs have been on leads and fully under my control, the aggressor in both cases is an un-neutered male who is allowed in their front gardens unsupervised and both are well known for attacking dogs. Where the GSD lives hasn't even got a fence! The GSD had attacked many dogs and bit two people previous to it knocking me off my bike and attacking my dogs.


That is the main problem, that this dog escaped from it's own garden to attack your dog, even if your dog had been going down the road barking or doing something to provoke the dog (and I'm not saying it was, it even might be the fact the bike set the dog off, or nothing you were doing at all) BUT the dog jumped over a gate to get to you and your dog and that in my eyes is totally not on. The owners should make sure their dog is in a secure garden especially if it is unsupervised and that way inclined where it could cause a problem/injury. As for the GSD, something should be done there as you can't have a dog loose that is going around attacking people. People really should be more responsible when they own any animals, they need to look out for the welfare of their animals and the safety of others, sadly a lot of people just don't think or don't care.


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

Metaldog - From what you've said it's not your fault you and your dog was attacked and I don't see the point in dissecting the situation to find blame.

Some dogs just snap -* any dog can snap whether some of us want to admit it or not*. Our cute cuddly big softie whose never done anything aggressive before, sat on the sofa next to us, could suddenly jump off and bite a guest or our child for, from what we can see, no apparent reason. It happens, you see it every so often in the news or in person, and it's not impossible for it to happen to us. Part of being a good owner is doing all we can to protect others from our animals - and in your case the dog shouldn't have been able to get out of it's garden to get you.

I'm still very sorry that you've been through such a bad situation and you don't deserve some of the comments trying to pin the blame on you or your dog, or the route you walk...blah blah blah

All that aside - I'm genuinely interested to hear what you decide to do


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

In my mind, a victim is always a victim. It's been debating about in the past for other things... you leave your car unlocked and it's stolen.. it's your fault not the person who stole the car...Sorry can't figure that one out. Blaming victims is often simply easier than admitting that there is a problem in society and it needs to be sorted.

On a public street it is necessary that you can walk in safety. If someone can't then something is wrong. If I child walked down the public street and did something provocative to a dog, lets say eating an ice cream a dog wanted and they were attacked/killed. Would you blame the child ?


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

metaldog said:


> But you are off topic...this thread is not about my dog's behaviour, nor is it to ask for opinions on how users thought the attack happened.
> 
> I notice you did not respond to my other post about the fact that the dog also bit me


Of course the dog was gonna bite you because you and your dog are a pack in the other dogs mind. On top of that you must have been in distress and screaming as anyone would in that situation and that could also lead the staffie to go for you.

Also i am certainly not off topic..if there is a dog attack where the same dog is being attacked by numerous dogs in "unprovoked" attacks then that dogs body language has got to be looked at incase it is setting other dogs off.

As for the post about skirts and rape..i think that certainly is off topic and tbh a pathetic comparison.

Posters are not restricted to agree with what any OP says. :nono:


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Snoringbear said:


> I have a dog that will charge at other dogs on sight if she were not on-lead, although she'll only bark at a safe distance at them once and not actually bite, it's still an aggressive response.


We have a dog very similar. As owners it is our responsibility to ensure she doesn't hurt anyone or anything else.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> Apparently sometimes all it can take is a slight movement of the ears for another dog to go into attack mode if it was to see that (dog whisperer lol).
> 
> I dont want to sound rude to the OP but maybe Bizkit has a tendency to wind up dogs by something we cant perceive...i read your other thread about a GSD charging for your dog too about a year ago and you said you live in an area with rough dogs...maybe avoiding the dogs that you know are a little crazy is a better option?


I've just read your welcome thread and I see that you have been a dog owner for a grand total of approx 8 months, and also noticed you quote the dog whisperer in your post. I apologise for my previous outburst, I didn't realise you were a complete novice at dog ownership and a fan of the dog wrestler


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## Cassia (May 28, 2011)

I promised myself I wouldn't comment but OMG PEOPLE... REALLY?...REALLY!?! COME ON NOW! 
Metaldog must have had a nasty shock... so if you havent got anything nice or constructive to say about this awfull situation... dont bother posting.


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

I'm sorry but this dog went out of its way to attack your dog and you and there is no doubt in my mind that he should be pts. There is not enough people to rehabilitate every dog with issues, in an ideal world this dog should have a second chance but there is not the resources to do so. If the owners are in their 60s then chances are they haven't been teaching the dog to be aggressive or using him as a status symbol, but he still was aggressive. My opinion is the dog is possibly naturally aggressive, therefore i would not trust it.


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## Cassia (May 28, 2011)

Marley boy said:


> I'm sorry but this dog went out of its way to attack your dog and you and there is no doubt in my mind that he should be pts. There is not enough people to rehabilitate every dog with issues, in an ideal world this dog should have a second chance but there is not the resources to do so. If the owners are in their 60s then chances are they haven't been teaching the dog to be aggressive or using him as a status symbol, but he still was aggressive. My opinion is the dog is possibly naturally aggressive, therefore i would not trust it.


EXACTLY! I agree.


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> Of course the dog was gonna bite you because you and your dog are a pack in the other dogs mind. On top of that you must have been in distress and screaming as anyone would in that situation and that could also lead the staffie to go for you.
> 
> Also i am certainly not off topic..if there is a dog attack where the same dog is being attacked by numerous dogs in "unprovoked" attacks then that dogs body language has got to be looked at incase it is setting other dogs off.
> 
> ...


Nobody is saying you MUST agree with the OP, but your dog being attacked a few times doesn't mean theres something wrong with the dog!! Thats ludicrous.

My dog has been bitten 3 times in a year, nothing serious thankfully, but there's nothing aggresive about him. 2/3 times he didn't even notice the dog till they were on top of him as he was too busy sniffing the floor as Beagles do. He didn't even defend himself. And he has loads of dog friends he plays with - at least 20 regulars and he plays with dogs we've just met without any problem too.

My dog is walked twice a day - and out of the thousands of dogs we've come across on the beach, on the local playing fields, round our estate, at friends houses...only 3 negative incidents.

So 3/thousands of dog-meets means theres something innately wrong with my dog?!

yeah - that makes sense


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

metaldog said:


> I've just read your welcome thread and I see that you have been a dog owner for a grand total of approx 8 months, and also noticed you quote the dog whisperer in your post. I apologise for my previous outburst, I didn't realise you were a complete novice at dog ownership and a fan of the dog wrestler


Sorry but i dont see what my owning a dog for the last 8 months has got anything to do with anything? With all your experience of dogs does that make you a professional dog behaviourist?

I live in a very rough neighbourhood where people keep dogs for protection and gaurding more than anything else..big dogs are constantly running down their garden alley ways barking and going mental. I know these barred doors are locked but i still avoid em as not only might it be stressful for my dog but im sure its stressful for the dog that is going crazy.

By the way my pup was attacked by a Boxer when he was only 5 months old..the Boxer ripped open my pups nose. Yes it was scary and i could have reported it...the Boxer only lives right opposite my house so the potential for it to happen again is always there..After talking to the owner i let it pass..we go for walks at different times and keep the dogs away from each other and both dogs are happy. What would i have achieved by reporting it? A dog put to sleep??

Can you also please tell me whats wrong with liking a programme which advocates looking for alternatives to putting dangerous dogs to sleep? Yeh he wrestles dogs, but these dogs would otherwise be destroyed...and that imo will always be the better solution.

As for blaming you and your dog..i dont think i have said that once..i just said it might be something to look out for.

Anyway since your the expert here i guess i should bow down and heed thy advice from now on oh great one.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> *Of course the dog was gonna bite you because you and your dog are a pack in the other dogs mind*. On top of that you must have been in distress and screaming as anyone would in that situation and that could also lead the staffie to go for you.
> 
> Also i am certainly not off topic..if there is a dog attack where the same dog is being attacked by numerous dogs in "unprovoked" attacks then that dogs body language has got to be looked at incase it is setting other dogs off.
> 
> ...


Really??? I think you will find that's a very outdated way of looking at dog behaviour now


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> As for blaming you and your dog..i dont think i have said that once..i just said it might be something to look out for.


Your memory is that bad is it? Well here's where I took you to saying it was the victim's dogs fault because it is an example of a dog that been attacked a couple of times...



5rivers79 said:


> ...if there is a dog attack where the same dog is being attacked by numerous dogs in "unprovoked" attacks then that dogs body language has got to be looked at incase it is setting other dogs off.


As for blaming the victim - heres where you did it...



5rivers79 said:


> Of course the dog was gonna bite you because you and your dog are a pack in the other dogs mind. On top of that you must have been in distress and screaming as anyone would in that situation and that could also lead the staffie to go for you.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> Of course the dog was gonna bite you because you and your dog are a pack in the other dogs mind. On top of that you must have been in distress and screaming as anyone would in that situation and that could also lead the staffie to go for you.
> 
> Also i am certainly not off topic..if there is a dog attack where the same dog is being attacked by numerous dogs in "unprovoked" attacks then that dogs body language has got to be looked at incase it is setting other dogs off.
> 
> ...


Darling I can see you have been brainwashed by the national geographic show the dog whisperer... it's ok it's not your fault, you'll get over it when you get a bit more experience.

Here's some photos of the dog who provokes an aggressive reaction from dogs out socialising with 'the pack' as you choose to call it 























































He's the black and tan mongrel.

We meet loads of dogs every day...it's funny how it's only two particularly well known for being aggressive dogs can 'read his bad signs' eh?


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> Of course the dog was gonna bite you because you and your dog are a pack in the other dogs mind. On top of that you must have been in distress and screaming as anyone would in that situation and that could also lead the staffie to go for you.
> 
> Also i am certainly not off topic..if there is a dog attack where the same dog is being attacked by numerous dogs in "unprovoked" attacks then that dogs body language has got to be looked at incase it is setting other dogs off.
> 
> ...


oh please a dog doesnt think a human is in a pack 
a well trained dog gets attacked and thats ok because it had bad body launguage :nonod: The only excuse a dog has for attacking another dog or human is self defence, this was not the dog defending its self. 
Lets hope your dog doesn't ever give off bad body launguage, because obviously that means its ok for every dog to radomly come up and attack your dog


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## Cassia (May 28, 2011)

5rivers79 said:


> Sorry but i dont see what my owning a dog for the last 8 months has got anything to do with anything? With all your experience of dogs does that make you a professional dog behaviourist?
> 
> I live in a very rough neighbourhood where people keep dogs for protection and gaurding more than anything else..big dogs are constantly running down their garden alley ways barking and going mental. I know these barred doors are locked but i still avoid em as not only might it be stressful for my dog but im sure its stressful for the dog that is going crazy.
> 
> ...


Right... ok so your advice is... stay away from anywhere that might have a dog that'd attack because your dog is "asking for it"?
You can't know where every aggressive dog is going to be and when. If we knew that, there wouldn't be any dog attacks.
I'm so utterly confused by your posts dear Sir lol

All I'm going to say is... I'm sure you'd have a totally different view if you and your dog were attacked... or even a child thats in your family... reserve your judgement for someone who deserves to be judged... because the OP does NOT deserve to be judged by what another dog has done.


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

metaldog said:


> Here's some photos of the dog who provokes an aggressive reaction from dogs out socialising with 'the pack' as you choose to call it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OMG How dare you post pics of your dog being savagly attacked by those other dogs!!


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Cassia said:


> Right... ok so your advice is... stay away from anywhere that might have a dog that'd attack because your dog is "asking for it"?
> You can't know where every aggressive dog is going to be and when. If we knew that, there wouldn't be any dog attacks.
> I'm so utterly confused by your posts dear Sir lol
> 
> All I'm going to say is... I'm sure you'd have a totally different view if you and your dog were attacked... or even a child thats in your family... reserve your judgement for someone who deserves to be judged... because the OP does NOT deserve to be judged by what another dog has done.


Well if you read above, my pup has been attacked. Besides the OP knew about these 2 dangerous dogs so its silly not to avoid em.

Also of course dogs see humans as their own or opposing pack members. If they didnt why would some big dogs try and rule the roost? Our dogs see us as their pack and if you dont think that then you seriously need to do some reading up.


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## mstori (May 22, 2009)

Helbo said:


> OMG How dare you post pics of your dog being savagly attacked by those other dogs!!


i thought it was the Ops dog doing the attacking? it looks well evil! :hand:


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## Cassia (May 28, 2011)

5rivers79 said:


> Well if you read above, my pup has been attacked. Besides the OP knew about these 2 dangerous dogs so its silly not to avoid em.


Lol to be honest hunny... I've been skim reading your comments... I don't want to waste too much time  it's kind of predictable


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## [email protected]'s_Bakery (Jun 7, 2011)

metaldog said:


> Me and the dogs were pootling along the road when a Staffie jumped over the gate out of it's garden and had a go at Bizkit. It's owners came running out of the house and tried to catch it but because it wasn't wearing a collar they couldn't grab it and ended up kicking hell out of it and that just made it more aggressive  I was on my bike & I had all my shopping in the trailer, so I was pretty much stuck there. During the attack the Staffie jumped up and bit my arm and I have two deep puncture wounds, one on each side of my left arm. Poor Bizkit has got about four puncture wounds in his front right leg. I've washed out our wounds with salt water and we're both bandaged up now.
> 
> I've rang the police and I'm waiting for them to come  Then we'll be off on a trip to the vet and a visit to Accident and Emergency.


I am so sorry for you two! I hope your wounds heal up quickly and Bizkit is not scared of other dogs now. 

A similar thing happened to my husband and I when we were walking our dog in the park. A staffie came running over to us out of nowhere - I only saw the dog when it was already there - and tried to bite my golden retriever. Luckily (or not) my husband put his hand on Chester's neck to protect him and the dog got my husband instead. He has puncture wounds and had to go to the walk-in centre to get a tetanus injection. When we went over to the owner, he didn't even acknowledge what was going on. He hadn't made any effort to check on his dog until we went to him to tell him what just happened! I am so angry and hate irresponsible dog owners!  And most likely the dog will be blamed and will have to face the consequences!

We didn't call the police but we told the owner if we see him again in the park with his dog off lead, we will definitely call the police right away.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Cassia said:


> Lol to be honest hunny... I've been skim reading your comments... I don't want to waste too much time  it's kind of predictable


So you skim read comments that are for educating and teaching people about dog behaviour, helping dogs with issues and against dogs being put down? Im sorry but if thats what people on this forum believe to be the right thing then i guess its forum full of very sad people.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

5rivers79 said:


> Also of course dogs see humans as their own or opposing pack members.


This is true..Its why my lot get really upset when I dont get down on all fours and sniff their butts!!


It all seems to come down to people at the end of the day. People have caused the crisis with abandoned dogs meaning even well behaved ones often dont get second chances and its people who cant be trusted to trained or control their dogs. Its why alot of us dog lovers advocate PTS rather then other more 'pie in the sky' options sadly.
I do agree dogs dont attack without provocation but I do believe for some (very rare) dogs the provocation can be just the sight of another dog. I have one near me that is well known for running out the front door whenever it can and attacking other dogs. Thankfully it is a JRT and so highly bootable!! Of course the owners have made no effort to stop it..

It sounds like Biskit is a well adjusted chap who will get over things quite easily though, so thats good.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> Well if you read above, my pup has been attacked. Besides the OP knew about these 2 dangerous dogs so its silly not to avoid em.
> 
> Also of course dogs see humans as their own or opposing pack members. If they didnt why would some big dogs try and rule the roost? Our dogs see us as their pack and if you dont think that then you seriously need to do some reading up.


Lets agree to disagree. I think I have the freedom to go where I want and owners should be responsible for their dog's action. I will not avoid walking to the Dr's or the local shop so I can help irresponsible owners to keep their dogs. I will continue to ride my bicycle, tow my trailer with my shopping in it and continue taking my well trained dogs along with me on their leads completely legally. I will continue to train my dogs in obedience (they have passed all 5 certificates in our training group btw  )

You can continue avoiding dogs that's your choice 

There are a lot of different opinions on whether dogs will act as a pack or not. Some think they do, some are adamant they don't. There's a very heated thread about it Here if you would care to read some of the differing opinions. I don't believe dogs see humans as members of a pack but it's ok if you do, it's your life


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> So you skim read comments that are for educating and teaching people about dog behaviour, helping dogs with issues and against dogs being put down? Im sorry but if thats what people on this forum believe to be the right thing then i guess its forum full of very sad people.


If this thread was for educational purposes it would be in dog-training-behaviour/ This section is to just chat about our dogs


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## mstori (May 22, 2009)

metaldog said:


> Lets agree to disagree. I think I have the freedom to go where I want and owners should be responsible for their dog's action. I will not avoid walking to the Dr's or the local shop so I can help irresponsible owners to keep their dogs. I will continue to ride my bicycle, tow my trailer with my shopping in it and continue taking my well trained dogs along with me on their leads completely legally. I will continue to train my dogs in obedience (they have passed all 5 certificates in our training group btw  )


im in awe! mine would make me crash 

how are you both feeling today? x


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

mstori said:


> im in awe! mine would make me crash
> 
> how are you both feeling today? x


We're both a bit better today thanks  I can type with my left hand again and the swelling has receded. Bizkit is barely limping and has had a game of chase me in the garden with little Pippi


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## mstori (May 22, 2009)

metaldog said:


> We're both a bit better today thanks  I can type with my left hand again and the swelling has receded. Bizkit is barely limping and has had a game of chase me in the garden with little Pippi


aww thats good 

You have both been so lucky, hope you are feeling back to normal, both physically and emotionally, soon. After we were attacked by a dog it took me ages to feel confident to walk mine alone again, although we didnt receive bad injuries, were mainly just shook up x


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

I've just had another chat with the police and he said the owners totally accept responsibility for the attack and are very apologetic. We have agreed to get a control order on the dog, so he is not allowed in the front garden unsupervised, must be muzzled in public and wear a collar when not in the house. However, this is their only chance and if anything else happens then they will sadly lose their dog.

I am satisfied with the outcome as no human or animal will be at risk and the dog will no longer be in the front garden so I can walk past without fear.

The police have also said if I see the dog out in front garden or unmuzzled and they will act immediately.


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

metaldog said:


> I've just had another chat with the police and he said the owners totally accept responsibility for the attack and are very apologetic. We have agreed to get a control order on the dog, so he is not allowed in the front garden unsupervised, must be muzzled in public and wear a collar when not in the house. However, this is their only chance and if anything else happens then they will sadly lose their dog.
> 
> I am satisfied with the outcome as no human or animal will be at risk and the dog will no longer be in the front garden so I can walk past without fear.
> 
> The police have also said if I see the dog out in front garden or unmuzzled and they will act immediately.


I'm glad this has had a good outcome for you and I hope that the owners have learnt their lesson and will be more responsible now!


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

metaldog said:


> I've just had another chat with the police and he said the owners totally accept responsibility for the attack and are very apologetic. We have agreed to get a control order on the dog, so he is not allowed in the front garden unsupervised, must be muzzled in public and wear a collar when not in the house. However, this is their only chance and if anything else happens then they will sadly lose their dog.
> 
> I am satisfied with the outcome as no human or animal will be at risk and the dog will no longer be in the front garden so I can walk past without fear.
> 
> The police have also said if I see the dog out in front garden or unmuzzled and they will act immediately.


Id rather avoid than have my young boy mauled. We have taken an animal out of the wild for our purposes. The least we can do is understand them and educate ourselves about them because there is still alot to learn for even the experts amongst us.

Anyway im glad you did the right thing


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> We have taken an animal out of the wild for our purposes. The least we can do is understand them and educate ourselves about them because there is still alot to learn for even the experts amongst us.


Maybe you got your dog from 'the wild' but mine came from hundreds of years of breeding and domestication


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## Cassia (May 28, 2011)

metaldog said:


> I've just had another chat with the police and he said the owners totally accept responsibility for the attack and are very apologetic. We have agreed to get a control order on the dog, so he is not allowed in the front garden unsupervised, must be muzzled in public and wear a collar when not in the house. However, this is their only chance and if anything else happens then they will sadly lose their dog.
> 
> I am satisfied with the outcome as no human or animal will be at risk and the dog will no longer be in the front garden so I can walk past without fear.
> 
> The police have also said if I see the dog out in front garden or unmuzzled and they will act immediately.


Awesome outcome!  
I hope you and your doggie aren't put in the same situation ever again x


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Helbo said:


> Maybe you got your dog from 'the wild' but mine came from hundreds of years of breeding and domestication


Maybe hundreds of years ago your dogs breed was plucked out of thin air.


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> Maybe hundreds of years ago your dogs breed was plucked out of thin air.


So we're still just a mix of homoerectus and neanderthals then? Time and progress mean nothing. Ok. I'm off to bash something over the head with a rock...wish someone had told me this sooner :blink:


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Helbo said:


> So we're still just a mix of homoerectus and neanderthals then? Time and progress mean nothing. Ok. I'm off to bash something over the head with a rock...wish someone had told me this sooner :blink:


Get back in your cave :001_tongue: :lol:


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> Maybe hundreds of years ago your dogs breed was plucked out of thin air.


I don't want to be harsh but you do realise that dog domestication was already underway during the Aurignacian approximately 31kya and possibly earlier then that?

ScienceDirect - Journal of Archaeological Science : Fossil dogs and wolves from Palaeolithic sites in Belgium, the Ukraine and Russia: osteometry, ancient DNA and stable isotopes

The Goyet cave skull represents a transitional form between wolves and dogs and represents some form of a relationship between humans and dogs. Whether this was dogs following along after human hunters or a more involved one is still under discussion.

There is mtDNA evidence that wolves and dogs actually diverged 100kya but as of yet we have no physical evidence that that was related to human behaviour.


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## Mistyweather (Jan 11, 2009)

Well I am glad thqt the outcome isn't the worst kind, although I think that the owners (who seem to be ignorant rather than bad) are going to have to be really vigilant. Keeping the dog i the back garden is one thing but what if there are children/other dogs out in their back garden as well?

So glad to hear that you and the your dog are feeling much better now. I would have been a wreck if it had happened to me.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Mistyweather said:


> Well I am glad thqt the outcome isn't the worst kind, although I think that the owners (who seem to be ignorant rather than bad) are going to have to be really vigilant. Keeping the dog i the back garden is one thing but what if there are children/other dogs out in their back garden as well?
> 
> So glad to hear that you and the your dog are feeling much better now. I would have been a wreck if it had happened to me.


Thanks. I am a bit of a wreck but feel better knowing it will have to stay in the back garden from now on.

The policeman has checked the back garden and it's got a 5 foot secure fence which the dog can't jump. If only they'd utilised this secure area before, all this could have been avoided :nonod:


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

L/C said:


> I don't want to be harsh but you do realise that dog domestication was already underway during the Aurignacian approximately 31kya and possibly earlier then that?
> 
> ScienceDirect - Journal of Archaeological Science : Fossil dogs and wolves from Palaeolithic sites in Belgium, the Ukraine and Russia: osteometry, ancient DNA and stable isotopes
> 
> ...


Lol Yes but where did the dog originate from? Why do dogs still chase small animals? That predatory instinct will still remain no matter how much time and progress has been made in domesticating the dog. It still belongs to the canid species.

Sure breeding has come along way but trying to say selective breeding has eradicated the predatory wild gene is false.

Sure does seem some of you in here have been bashed across the head by a rock.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> Lol Yes but where did the dog originate from? Why do dogs still chase small animals? That predatory instinct will still remain no matter how much time and progress has been made in domesticating the dog. It still belongs to the canid species.
> 
> Sure breeding has come along way but trying to say selective breeding has eradicated the predatory wild gene is false.
> 
> Sure does seem some of you in here have been bashed across the head by a rock.


I think the predatory instinct being bred out depends on the actual breed of dog. In your chosen breed the instinct is quite high, like in the Northern breeds, according to an article I read in your dog magazine the Spitz breeds are the closest relations to wild dogs/wolves. But in something like a Cavalier they have been bread for years to be companions so have lost the instinct. 

I was dropped on my head when I was a baby, does that count?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

I agree that dogs are not as far away from the wolf as some say they are. One of the reasons we feed raw. With most of the dogs which are put to sleep, even those "dangerous dog breeds", it is a case of bad training and bad owners.

The "Dogs are wolves and following instincts" fact, even if you agree with it, should never excuse irresponsible ownership.


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> Lol Yes but where did the dog originate from? Why do dogs still chase small animals? That predatory instinct will still remain no matter how much time and progress has been made in domesticating the dog. It still belongs to the canid species.
> 
> Sure breeding has come along way but trying to say selective breeding has eradicated the predatory wild gene is false.
> 
> Sure does seem some of you in here have been bashed across the head by a rock.


The domestic dog is radically different from the wolf both phenotypically and behaviourially to the point that it really bears very little resembalence to them despite genotypic closeness.

Most domestic dog breeds are not hunters - they are scavengers and selective breeding has established in most breeds a real, behavioural trait of non-aggression towards humans. The chase instinct is different altogether and again depends on breed - sighthounds will have a higher chase instinct then many breeds (esp. greyhounds and lurchers that have been specially bred for that). BUT most breeds lack the same behavioural pattern that has a wolf has to stalk, chase and kill.

If you would genuinely like to understand this subject I can point you to some books and links but TBH from your posts it sounds like you are more interested in taking the piss.

ETA: To clarify by phenotypically I mean outwardly and in some breeds skeletally. Organwise they are still very similar to wolves who also exhibit scavenger behaviour in very lean times.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I wish they were more like wolves at times. That way my Chihuahua might have hunted and killed that huge spider he found the other night rather then playing with it then releasing it next to my foot!!
*shudder*


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

catz4m8z said:


> I wish they were more like wolves at times. That way my Chihuahua might have hunted and killed that huge spider he found the other night rather then playing with it then releasing it next to my foot!!
> *shudder*


At least it wasn't on your foot! Ely rather proudly dropped a huge spider right next to my head one morning while I was still in bed!  I'm not sure if he wanted to show me his hunting prowess or get me up quicker. :lol:


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

Glad to read there has been a positive outcome for the dog ! 
Fingers crossed the owners take it seriously and become alot more responsible for their dog now.

Hope you and Bizkit are doing well x


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

L/C said:


> The domestic dog is radically different from the wolf both phenotypically and behaviourially to the point that it really bears very little resembalence to them despite genotypic closeness.
> 
> Most domestic dog breeds are not hunters - they are scavengers and selective breeding has established in most breeds a real, behavioural trait of non-aggression towards humans. The chase instinct is different altogether and again depends on breed - sighthounds will have a higher chase instinct then many breeds (esp. greyhounds and lurchers that have been specially bred for that). BUT most breeds lack the same behavioural pattern that has a wolf has to stalk, chase and kill.
> 
> ...


LMAO 

Well anyway like i said at some point before, if it was a legal requirement to muzzle all dogs in public there would be very few incidents regarding "dangerous dogs"

It is because of this very attitude that some lovely breeds of dogs are banned in this country. Owners should be held responsible not the dog.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

metaldog said:


> I don't know what I want to happen to the dog, I'd rather it wasn't destroyed because it's not the dogs fault the owners didn't secure the garden. But I don't want it to happen to me again.
> ...
> Can I request for it to be only allowed in the back garden and muzzled in public?


If you read the 1st post this is the very thing asked for. Considering the person probably wrote whilst still in shock, the concern for the dog's welfare is very apparent.

Edit: I agree with the banned dog breed bit, but that is certainly a discussion for another thread.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Malmum said:


> Have you any idea of the strength behind a Staffies jaws? It could kill even without intent, just as one of my Mals could in the same situation. I'm not knocking Staffs, had many myself and worked in Staff rescue for six years so I care about the breed but I have no doubt about their potential and have seen such. I'm not a "Staffist" but what ever dog attacks should be pts as far as i'm concerned, owners fault it may be but certainly not the dog it attacks fault or it's owners.
> 
> Save the dogs who deserve to be saved as hundreds of these poor mites are destroyed every day!


I do indeed know the strength of Staffies jaws, Malmum. I also know the strength of Rotties' jaws...and they have the strongest bite pressure of all dogs! The point I am making is that a dog bite is a very relative occurrence...it happens every day around the world for a hoard of different reasons, not all of them warranting a PTS.



Snoringbear said:


> This is a personal example of provocation. I have a dog that will charge at other dogs on sight if she were not on-lead, although she'll only bark at a safe distance at them once and not actually bite, it's still an aggressive response. That would look entirely unprovoked to most people. What's the provocation? - Fear. She's always been scared of pretty much everything and everyone and was terrorised by off lead friendly dogs chasing her about until one day she decided to turn round and have a go at one. Now she has a new learned behaviour to respond to a negative situation which results in a positive outcome.


Provoked and unprovoked are very subjective stances. From the dog's point of view, as Snoringbear has outlined above, attacks are always provoked in some way...whether that be by an active or passive threat from another dog. To humans, attacks are often seemingly unprovoked though, as they haven't consciously provoked the situation directly.



Marley boy said:


> I'm sorry but this dog went out of its way to attack your dog and you and there is no doubt in my mind that he should be pts...
> My opinion is the dog is possibly naturally aggressive, therefore i would not trust it.


Dogs don't attack just because they want to, or have nothing else to do. There is always a reason behind it. Animals don't engage in physical fights unless they absolutely have to...which this dog thinks he/she did, unfortunately.

Whilst some claim that aggression can be genetic, this is a very sketchy area and is 1 in a million case. Furthermore, it would just be a higher propensity to _become aggression/reactive_ and develop fears, rather than immediately reactive from birth.



metaldog said:


> I've just had another chat with the police and he said the owners totally accept responsibility for the attack and are very apologetic. We have agreed to get a control order on the dog, so he is not allowed in the front garden unsupervised, must be muzzled in public and wear a collar when not in the house. However, this is their only chance and if anything else happens then they will sadly lose their dog.
> 
> I am satisfied with the outcome as no human or animal will be at risk and the dog will no longer be in the front garden so I can walk past without fear.
> 
> The police have also said if I see the dog out in front garden or unmuzzled and they will act immediately.


Great news! However, if they did seize the dog for PTS, seeing the evidence, I think it could be warranted.



5rivers79 said:


> Lol *Yes but where did the dog originate from?* Why do dogs still chase small animals? That predatory instinct will still remain no matter how much time and progress has been made in domesticating the dog. It still belongs to the canid species.
> 
> Sure breeding has come along way but trying to say selective breeding has eradicated the predatory wild gene is false.


The most accepted theory is dogs originated from wolves...but defining wolves is not as easy as everyone claims. Wolf morphological and behavioural characteristics change from population to population.

Predatory behaviour is very limited in dogs and, even if a dog does actually kill a small animal, they rarely know what to do with it.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> I do indeed know the strength of Staffies jaws, Malmum. I also know the strength of Rotties' jaws...and they have the strongest bite pressure of all dogs! The point I am making is that a dog bite is a very relative occurrence...it happens every day around the world for a hoard of different reasons, not all of them warranting a PTS.
> 
> Provoked and unprovoked are very subjective stances. From the dog's point of view, as Snoringbear has outlined above, attacks are always provoked in some way...whether that be by an active or passive threat from another dog. To humans, attacks are often seemingly unprovoked though, as they haven't consciously provoked the situation directly.
> 
> ...


My Akita from 8 weeks old has grabbed little cushions and teddies in its mouth and swung them side to side as hard as he can...the first time i gave him a raw chicken fillet he took a sniff and that was it wanted to take it down whole lol


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> My Akita from 8 weeks old has grabbed little cushions and teddies in its mouth and swung them side to side as hard as he can...the first time i gave him a raw chicken fillet he took a sniff and that was it wanted to take it down whole lol


Dogs do love to bite, shake and destroy. It looks like a very predatory instinct, but there are some theories that it contrast this. Dogs do this in play and many would argue that the dogs are not consciously trying to 'kill', but it is just a phenotypic trait that occurs in play as a fixed or modal action pattern- innate behaviours that dogs still 'practice'.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

For anyone that's interested, an IWoof about aggression and the bite level scale from Dr Ian Dunbar, his wife and son. Dr Dunbar created the bite scale, and it really is very useful in getting your head around dog attacks and aggression.

4.04 The Bite Scale and How to Evaluate Aggression | Dog Star Daily


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> What do you class as unprovoked though? Is it the dog with a high prey drive who kills a small dog mistaking it for prey? Is it the dog of any breed that experiences sudden predatory drift?


Yes, while they may be natural instincts to a dog, they are not acceptable in the society we now live and keep dogs as pets. If a dog has such a high prey drive that it attacks a small dog then that dog needs to be muzzled when at all times when out, as many ex greyhounds are for this very reason.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Apparently sometimes all it can take is a slight movement of the ears for another dog to go into attack mode if it was to see that


Sorry, but any dog whose aggression is triggered off by a slight movement on the ears is not of sound temperament and has no place being in public. This is why I have such a huge problem with indiscriminate breeding - there is no doubt in my mind that we have too many dogs being bred with poor temperaments.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Helbo said:


> Nobody is saying you MUST agree with the OP, but your dog being attacked a few times doesn't mean theres something wrong with the dog!! Thats ludicrous.
> 
> My dog has been bitten 3 times in a year, nothing serious thankfully, but there's nothing aggresive about him. 2/3 times he didn't even notice the dog till they were on top of him as he was too busy sniffing the floor as Beagles do. He didn't even defend himself. And he has loads of dog friends he plays with - at least 20 regulars and he plays with dogs we've just met without any problem too.
> 
> ...


What this indicates to me is that your dog has a sound temperament. In spite of being attacked three times it is still a friendly, non aggressive dog and that is how it should be. I do worry that people make all sorts of excuses about their dogs behaviour being due to it being attacked. While such behaviour may be understandable, given the lifestyle most of us have with out pets and in society, we do not need dogs with sensitive, reactive temperaments.



> Originally Posted by 5rivers79
> Of course the dog was gonna bite you because you and your dog are a pack in the other dogs mind. On top of that you must have been in distress and screaming as anyone would in that situation and that could also lead the staffie to go for you.
> 
> Also i am certainly not off topic..if there is a dog attack where the same dog is being attacked by numerous dogs in "unprovoked" attacks then that dogs body language has got to be looked at incase it is setting other dogs off.


5rivers79 I don't know where you get your ideas from, but these behaviours have no place in todays dog owning society.


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## Andromeda (Nov 21, 2010)

We people do like to find the easiest way for everything. Instead of be careful around dogs we prefer to muzzle them. We have a Dangerous Dog Act and law saying than a dog near main road should be kept on lead. Sad is that we going further in our stupidity. Dogs will bite because the have teeth, we will kick because we know how to use our legs. It does means that we should pull all teeth to avoid being bitten or cut off legs to avoid a kick?
We should to focus on owners, teach them what responsible ownership is, what is mean.
I cannot walk next to many fenced yards because owners let their dogs out and they don't care what happened next. Who care about a dog bouncing on the fence? About opened gates? So before we will opt for new brilliant law maybe is time to take a look on potential dog owners and teach them what to do with a dog.


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## sheriffjonny (Jun 23, 2011)

if we start deviating off the subject into wolves and dogs etc, can i point out that wolf dog hybrid packs are now taking over traditional wolf hunting grounds in parts of Russia. What does this tell us? That the dog part of the hybrid is actually more aggressive than the wolf? Or is a physiolgical change that actually determines this? Has the wolf/dog hybrid now got more stamina/strength than a pure wolf?


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> What this indicates to me is that your dog has a sound temperament. In spite of being attacked three times it is still a friendly, non aggressive dog and that is how it should be.


Thank you Rocco


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> No offense, but this was just one situation.
> 
> To advise a dog be PTS after one attack is very ignorant. We do not know the dog's full temperament, what happened just at the moment of the attack and what the exact trigger was.
> 
> Good behaviour modification training may allow this dog to live a very happy life, so PTS should only be advised after a thourough temperament assessment of the dog and review of the owners' suitability to own a dog.


I agree (with the tiny amount of knowledge I have) it sounds like the owners need to be PTS. They should have the dog taken off of them and given to the right people who can muzzle and work on this dogs problems, if everything has been tried THEN look at that as an option.

I hope you both are okay and there is no long lasting damage to either of you. Its so sad innocent people and dogs are paying the price because of stupid, ignorant people. Sending you all my best xx


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

The dog bit a person also this was done in a public place so according to the DDA it should be destroyed - end of!


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Malmum said:


> The dog bit a person also this was done in a public place so according to the DDA it should be destroyed - end of!


It doesn't say that at all. Other than punitive measures taken against the owner, it's an option with other control orders.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Malmum said:


> The dog bit a person also this was done in a public place so according to the DDA it should be destroyed - end of!


So what of the dog that bites a person but leaves no bruising or only a scratch? Or what of the dog that has been provoked by a person, cornered in and then bitten in defense?

Biting and aggression are more complex than we could even think to imagine and the DDA cannot even hope to cover all the extremities of each case.

Have a look at my post about Dr Dunbar's bite scale- very informative.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Biting and aggression are more complex than we could even think to imagine and the DDA cannot even hope to cover all the extremities of each case.


There is nothing complex about a dog jumping out of it's garden and biting a passerby and her dog that has already attacked on a number of previous occasions IMO. While I do think it's the owners at fault, it is not a dog that has any place in public. Hopefully the owners will heed the police warning however if they don't, then sadly pts is justified.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

metaldog said:


> I've just had another chat with the police and he said the owners totally accept responsibility for the attack and are very apologetic. We have agreed to get a control order on the dog, so he is not allowed in the front garden unsupervised, must be muzzled in public and wear a collar when not in the house. However, this is their only chance and if anything else happens then they will sadly lose their dog.
> 
> I am satisfied with the outcome as no human or animal will be at risk and the dog will no longer be in the front garden so I can walk past without fear.
> 
> The police have also said if I see the dog out in front garden or unmuzzled and they will act immediately.


That sounds a far better compromise than just having the dog PTS.

Spread the word among local dog walkers so that you have lots of eyes being kept firmly on the dog. Do you have to have witnessed the owners breaking the conditions of the control order, or does it count for anyone reporting/witnessing it?

Hopefully it'll give the dogs owner a kick up the bum.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> There is nothing complex about a dog jumping out of it's garden and biting a passerby and her dog that has already attacked on a number of previous occasions IMO. While I do think it's the owners at fault, it is not a dog that has any place in public. Hopefully the owners will heed the police warning however if they don't, then sadly pts is justified.


In this case, and if you look at my previous posts, I agree that PTS would be warranted in this case.

But what is not warranted is people advising any dog that bites someone/another dog should be PTS. Aggression is a complex matter and cannot just be swept into a "The dog is dangerous, and so must be PTS" category.


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## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> No offense, but this was just one situation.
> 
> To advise a dog be PTS after one attack is very ignorant. We do not know the dog's full temperament, what happened just at the moment of the attack and what the exact trigger was.
> 
> Good behaviour modification training may allow this dog to live a very happy life, so PTS should only be advised after a thourough temperament assessment of the dog and review of the owners' suitability to own a dog.


The thing is getting a dog to bite is alot harder then getting it to run away... even with a good temperment it could bite again. The owners are obviously knobs... what if its a child next time?

Say this child just gets its faced ragged and has to grow up with horrible scares..... as much as i hate the thought of having a dog pts i do think that once a dog has bitten and punctured skin then it's proably the best course.

i know what my dogs are capable of so I ensure they and everyone else is always safe! But i'm responsible. I never would want to put my babies to sleep!


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## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

xbostonx said:


> Sorry to hear about your trauma and I hope you and your dog recover from it.
> 
> I personally think the dog should be taken off its owner as they are irresponsible and dont deserve a dog.
> If this dog is given a second chance in a controled environment where it can be accessed and THEN FULLY TRAINED not just basic obediences this dog could make an excellent companion and pet.
> ...


Sadly there isn't always a chance for this to happen... which is sad!


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## Honey Bee (Mar 29, 2011)

metaldog said:


> Thanks for the hugs. OMG that must have been such a shock to have been bitten like that  Has it made you nervous of GSDs? I'm a bit of a nervous wreck at the moment and I'm hoping it will fade with time. I'm so glad my mate has the friendliest Staffie in the world who can help me get over this.


I am so glad to hear that you and Biskit are both feeling better today. You have been brave to allow this Staffie a final chance. We can only hope the owners have had such a severe wake up call that they comply to the letter.

Yes I have to say I do have a problem with certain GSD's even now and this incident was over 10 years ago. This is also despite us having owned two ourselves and knowing about GSD characters but ours had superb temperaments and never caused anyone any concern. Although I am lucky that I too know quite a few now that are brilliant and I am absolutely fine with them. It's just when one starts barking or looking dodgy that I freeze. 
You just have to tell yourself that the vast majority are good dogs, just as the vast majority of Staffies are good dogs, and it is unlikely to happen again. You cannot avoid all potentially aggressive dogs so in the end you have to get on with it (my OH words not mine!)  I sympathise fully and send more hugs to you both. x


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

stigDarley said:


> The thing is getting a dog to bite is alot harder then getting it to run away... even with a good temperment it could bite again. The owners are obviously knobs... what if its a child next time?
> 
> Say this child just gets its faced ragged and has to grow up with horrible scares..... as much as i hate the thought of having a dog pts i do think that once a dog has bitten and punctured skin then it's proably the best course.
> 
> i know what my dogs are capable of so I ensure they and everyone else is always safe! But i'm responsible. I never would want to put my babies to sleep!


Please read all of my posts before commenting.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> if what was posted is correct, the dog attacked, unprovoked, [& s/he] should be destroyed... end of story!


my goodness. :blink: it must be nice to be so certain of right & wrong, & live in a world of absolutes, with no gray.

what if another dog had attacked THAT dog, only a few hours or days previous? 
what if some idiot bicyclist [with a free-running dog who runs with them] teases that dog regularly?

what if the dog has been *encouraged* by the owner, to 'chase off' stray dogs... & the dog now ignores leashes? 
if Bizkit had been free to flee, there might've been no injuries; *altho i am NOT suggesting free-roaming dogs 
are a good idea; free-breeding, hit by cars, accidental poisonings, & other bad things happen when dogs roam.* 
i am only saying that had Bizkit in this instance been able to run off, there may have been only a scare.

one dog free & one trapped is always a bad thing - just like one dog *muzzled* & another free-faced: 
the muzzled dog is entirely defenseless, unless they can flee & are faster than their pursuer. 
dogs should never be muzzled around unmuzzled dogs who are off-leash; if ONE is muzzled, everybody is.

i think in this case, the owner should be prosecuted, at minimum fined; they should also be made to make their garden 
escape-proof, by raising the height of the gate or by using an overhead trolley to secure the dog, WELL-AWAY 
from the fence/wall - so the dog cannot possibly get hung, by jumping over the barrier.


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## mstori (May 22, 2009)

metaldog said:


> Thanks. I am a bit of a wreck but feel better knowing it will have to stay in the back garden from now on.
> 
> The policeman has checked the back garden and it's got a 5 foot secure fence which the dog can't jump. If only they'd utilised this secure area before, all this could have been avoided :nonod:


I really hope the dog will still be supervised and that they wont just presume all is ok cos of the fence. My best friend had her rabbit running round in the garden when a staffie scaled the 6ft wall, jumped over and got the bunny.

The owners quick thinking and jumping over after it (still dont know how he did it so quick) saved jaspers life.

She reported to the police, but didnt press charges but it certainly makes me wary about my 4ft wall (although its higher on the inside if that makes sense)

I dont understand when cases like this happen, that the owners arent made to go to dog classes, as often they dont have any control over the dog, even if they have the best of intentions. Infact ALL owners should have to complete at least a puppy course.

Id also make sure that everyone local knows what happened. im concerned they let the dog off lead. I pray that nothing like this happens again.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

metaldog said:


> It's beginning to look like it's not a one-off... The vet has heard of the dog attacking before...
> so have several dog walkers on our local park. I agree that the owners should be the ones responsible for securing their pet,
> but in a case like this where they clearly aren't doing anything to control the dog despite numerous attacks, then what?


i also hold the BITEE responsible to report any incident - even an attack without a bite, as when a dog runs over, 
barking, leaps on U & growls, then gets off & grumbles away.

anybody who is threatened or molested by a dog *is themselves responsible* to report it. 
if every person who was charged by this dog leaping over the gate, & every person whose dog was assaulted 
at the park by this dog, *had gotten off their whiney duffs & reported every single event - * this one may not 
have happened at all, as the dog would either have been confiscated, surrendered to a shelter, re-homed, 
or CONTROLLED & CONFINED properly by the current owner, long since.

as it is, a lot of do-nothings did what they're best at, *& permitted a dangerous situation to continue.* 
it's the equivalent of tacit approval; U cannot whine about something on one hand, & FAIL to do anything to fix it, 
on the other.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Verbatim said:


> That sounds a far better compromise than just having the dog PTS.
> 
> Spread the word among local dog walkers so that you have lots of eyes being kept firmly on the dog. Do you have to have witnessed the owners breaking the conditions of the control order, or does it count for anyone reporting/witnessing it?
> 
> Hopefully it'll give the dogs owner a kick up the bum.


That's good advice, I'll spread the word. It doesn't have to be me witnessing them breaking the conditions anyone can do it. I'm going to be taking my camera out with me in future, in case.



Malmum said:


> The dog bit a person also this was done in a public place so according to the DDA it should be destroyed - end of!


That's true enough if I decided to press charges, but I have decided against it in this case because if it was one of my dogs I would want them to have a second chance. If they break the conditions of the control order I will be the first person to report them.



Rottiefan said:


> Have a look at my post about Dr Dunbar's bite scale- very informative.


According to Dr Dunbar's scale what happened to me was a level 4 attack, but what happened to Malmum's little dog was a level 6 so I can completely understand why she feels so strongly about this subject.



Honey Bee said:


> I am so glad to hear that you and Biskit are both feeling better today. You have been brave to allow this Staffie a final chance. We can only hope the owners have had such a severe wake up call that they comply to the letter.
> 
> Yes I have to say I do have a problem with certain GSD's even now and this incident was over 10 years ago. This is also despite us having owned two ourselves and knowing about GSD characters but ours had superb temperaments and never caused anyone any concern. Although I am lucky that I too know quite a few now that are brilliant and I am absolutely fine with them. It's just when one starts barking or looking dodgy that I freeze.
> You just have to tell yourself that the vast majority are good dogs, just as the vast majority of Staffies are good dogs, and it is unlikely to happen again. *You cannot avoid all potentially aggressive dogs so in the end you have to get on with it (my OH words not mine!)  I sympathise fully and send more hugs to you both. x*


Wise words from you OH there. Thanks for the hugs. I will keep telling myself not all Staffie's are bad. Luckily I know some lovely ones who will help me to remember this 



leashedForLife said:


> my goodness.
> if Bizkit had been free to flee, there might've been no injuries; *altho i am NOT suggesting free-roaming dogs
> are a good idea; free-breeding, hit by cars, accidental poisonings, & other bad things happen when dogs roam.*
> i am only saying that had Bizkit in this instance been able to run off, there may have been only a scare.


I think that is a very valid point. I think if he'd been off lead he wouldn't have got injured and probably neither would I 



leashedForLife said:


> i also hold the BITEE responsible to report any incident - even an attack without a bite, as when a dog runs over,
> barking, leaps on U & growls, then gets off & grumbles away.
> 
> anybody who is threatened or molested by a dog *is themselves responsible* to report it.
> ...


That is so true, we all have a responsibility to the next person to report this type of behaviour and then we may possible save a life, be it human or canine. Here in the UK there is no legislation for dog on dog aggression and the police will only attend a dog fight if a human has been bitten.

I'm not sure where I stand on dog on dog attacks with no human injuries involved...in a blue sky world *everyone* would be responsible for their dogs and ensure it could not happen...and in this world there'd be no violent crime, burglary or child abuse. But I'm not sure legislating about it would solve the problem, legislating is a bit like closing the gate after the horse has bolted. Education is the way forward, but with so much suffering in humans funding for helping dogs will never be granted.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Howldaloom said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> A dog like this *can make a perfect pet with the right guidance.*
> [SNIP]
> ...


* i hesitate to ask, but what's _'the right guidance'_? :huh: and just WHO would this dog be 'perfect' for?

* i've done B-Mod with biting, fighting & predatory dogs; i'm not 'hardcore'. 
none of them required prongs, chokes, shock, pokes, kicks or taps, Alpha-rolls, or any other supposedly 
'necessary' *hard* tactics or tools. they needed to be retaught; often to *trust humans*, or relax around other dogs.

* why would he *"never bite again"*?  would U pull all his teeth? 
there are such things as _justified bites_ & IMO, dogs have the right to defend themselves 
from perceived threats - & their only defense, ultimately, is their teeth.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> ...whats wrong with liking a programme [CM/DW] which advocates *looking for alternatives
> to putting dangerous dogs to sleep*? Yeh he wrestles dogs, but *these dogs would otherwise be destroyed...*
> & that IMO will always be the better solution.


errm, 99% of the dogs appearing on the Dawg-Wrassler are not on death-row.

the Beagle who bit the postie? the Saint who was afraid if the spiral [OPEN] staircase? the Dane afraid of slippy 
floors? they're all doomed to be euthanized, eh? :nonod: seems awfully harsh.

almost-any dog with a problem behavior who's neurologically & behaviorally normal can be rehabbed, 
& WITHOUT any of the tools or methods made famous by Natl-Geo's TV-host: skinny garrotes, prong, choke 
or shock-collars, neck-jabs, toe-pokes into flank or loin, shoving the dog to the ground & pinning her/him there, 
and so on.

['neurologically or behaviorally abnormal' = epilepsy, rage syndrome, focal seizures, global fears, ...]

unfortunately, the dog in this instance - who is owned by elders, probably underexercised & likely untrained - 
COULD BE retrained, but it's not likely. I think the best to be hoped for is to force the owners to be serious 
about safe confinement when in the garden, & safe restraint & control when on leash. but so long as no-one 
else gets hurt, that's good. :thumbup: not best, but OK.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Why do people always assume a dog which attacks has to have been provoked. Not all serial killers kill due to bad upbringing, not all rapists rape because they have suffered abuse. Some people are just wired wrong. People are mammals. Dogs are mammals. Surely, it is entirely possible for some animals to be wired wrong as well. As many defenders of this dog have pointed out, we do not necessarily know the whole story. Yes, it might be the owner's fault but it might also be a badly wired dog.


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## mstori (May 22, 2009)

Sacremist said:


> Why do people always assume a dog which attacks has to have been provoked. Not all serial killers kill due to bad upbringing, not all rapists rape because they have suffered abuse. Some people are just wired wrong. People are mammals. Dogs are mammals. Surely, it is entirely possible for some animals to be wired wrong as well. As many defenders of this dog have pointed out, we do not necessarily know the whole story. Yes, it might be the owner's fault but it might also be a badly wired dog.


Ive asked this before. A discussion which said all dogs can be trained, that a dogs behaviour is the owners fault, but also stated certain cross breeds are asking for trouble, especially if the parents have bad temprements.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> ...of course dogs see humans as their own or opposing pack members. If they didn't,
> why would some big dogs try and rule the roost? Our dogs see us as their pack and if you dont think that,
> then you seriously need to do some reading...


oh, dear. :nonod: having just dropped about $100 on _the handbook of dog behavior & training, Vol III [Lindsey]_, 
i'd be willing to lend it - but the postage to the UK would be a whopper, it weighs a kilo or more.

BTW, linear hierarchies are single-species, not multispecies - & domestic dogs are not among the species that develop 
these hierarchies. In dogs, the most common & important behavior in day to day encounters IME is *deference.* 
these are the negotiations that dogs engage in all the time - which of 2 dogs at the beach gets to pick-up the ball?...

dogs engage in fluid, flexible, context-sensitive behavior, way-more interesting & elegant than 'dumbinance', 
where every bloody thing from who exits a door first to lying on the sofa is mislabeled *dominance*.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> Originally Posted by 5rivers79
> 
> _...of course dogs see humans as their own or opposing pack members._





catz4m8z said:


> This is true... It's why my lot get really upset when I don't get down on all fours & sniff their butts!!


:lol: THAT's what i've been doing wrong - standing on 2 feet, vs get down on hands & knees! :thumbup: 
thanks, *catz. * i've been wondering what i could do to solve my problem, i think this will really help.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

metaldog said:


> Get back in your cave :001_tongue: :lol:


i prefer to brachiate, thanks. :001_smile:


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> i prefer to brachiate, thanks. :001_smile:


PMSL :lol: :lol:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> ...breeding has come along way but trying to say selective breeding has eradicated the predatory wild gene is false.


dogs as individuals & dogs as breeds vary enormously in their predatory behavior. herding breeds love to chase,
while companion-breeds like Pugs & Pekes are not very chase-prone.

what domestication MOSTLY did was reduce dog's flight-distance & increase their tolerance for novelty - 
'novel' things are scary, as the unknown is always potentially dangerous; wolves are very cautious of novel things.
dogs OTOH can be casual about novel encounters to a foolhardy degree.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

stigDarley said:


> ...much as i hate the thought of having a dog [euthanized], i do think that once a dog has bitten
> and punctured skin, then it's proably the best course.


_'once a dog has tasted blood, they can never be trusted again...'_  :nonod:

BTW i do *not* agree with this - blood-lust is a human-construct.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> errm, 99% of the dogs appearing on the Dawg-Wrassler are not on death-row.
> 
> the Beagle who bit the postie? the Saint who was afraid if the spiral [OPEN] staircase? the Dane afraid of slippy
> floors? they're all doomed to be euthanized, eh? :nonod: seems awfully harsh.
> ...


A Beagle biting a postie in this country would have probably been put down had the postie pressed charges, as for Mr Milans methods..well they work..and the owners are greatful for that. The Bernard was cured of his fear of stairs and the Dane wasnt scared of slippy floors anymore without a poke or restrain in sight.

As for your book please i think il give it a miss, my pup has been on a kc reg'd training course and dealing with dominance and pack instinct is a part of dog training. Anyway here more on the breed i have 

Is an Akita for You

Akita Info - What is an Akita Like?

"Akitas are a dominant breed and like to take charge. Akitas, like their wolf ancestors, are pack animals and establish a pecking order. At some point the Akita may challenge family members for the dominant position in the family "pack". This behavior cannot be tolerated and a consistent, firm correction should be your immediate response. Akitas with good temperament accept discipline well from those it loves - not beating, but intelligent discipline. Frequently, a firm verbal command will be all that is needed. Once you have reaffirmed your and the Akita's positions in the pack, you normally will not have any more challenges. Typically, adolescence is when the Akita thinks he needs to take over." Akita Tips

I wont comment on other breeds but Akitas are known to challenge for dominance..maybe its due to them being an ancient breed. But imo that instinct of forming a pack is why a dog is a man's (or woman's) best friend.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> ...as for Mr Milans methods..well they work... and the owners are greatful for that.
> The Bernard was cured of his fear of stairs and the Dane wasnt scared of slippy floors anymore without a poke
> or restrain in sight.


my colleagues in SoCal [who get the repair-jobs post-CM] are grateful for the business, but to a person they say 
they would vastly prefer that they got to work with the dog PRE-'whispering', since in many cases the original 
presenting issue was pretty simple - & now it's WAY-more complex & a lot more repair-work. 


5rivers79 said:


> ...here's more on the breed i have


one of my 2 heart-dogs was my Akita-bitch; she & i were a therapy-pet team at local rehab-hospital, among other 
places; i never had to 'dominate' my dog in her life. she wore an all-fabric martingale collar for her tags, 
& a headollar for therapy-visits among rolling-IVs, wheelchairs, O2-lines, & other fussy bits.

she also carried various stuffed-toys thru the hallways, from room to room.  and she dressed-up for Hallowe'en, 
in a Harvard sweat-suit outfit. The hospital staff loved her, & one receptionist threatened to steal her. 

she developed an idiopathic bleeding disorder, destroying her own platelets. her vet & i kept her going 
for 2-years after her first crisis, mostly happy & comfy, once we weaned her off the steroids.

she was a Frerose Kennels Akita; her dam was AKC-Ch Tequila Sunrise; Frerose at the time had more 
*Register of Merit* Akitas than any other bloodline in North America. she was dual-registered, AKC & UKC. 
she got a blue & a red in her first show, & was asked to be a dam for the Chinook breed before they closed 
the studbook by 3 prominent breeders - who saw her at the UKC Centennial Show.

_Rest in peace, 'Kishacoquillas Occult Moon, CGC'._. 
run free, good girl; i'll see U later. Keep an eye out for me.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> A Beagle biting a postie in this country would have probably been put down had the postie pressed charges, as for Mr Milans methods..well they work..and the owners are greatful for that. The Bernard was cured of his fear of stairs and the Dane wasnt scared of slippy floors anymore without a poke or restrain in sight.
> 
> As for your book please i think il give it a miss, my pup has been on a kc reg'd training course and dealing with dominance and pack instinct is a part of dog training. Anyway here more on the breed i have
> 
> ...


With all do respect 5rivers79, this information is horrendously out-of-date. 30 years ago, this is the way everyone thought, and it was very successful as it created a very romantic image of humans and dogs living in some sort of hierarchy whereby we needed to 'lead' and show our control. *BUT*, we now know that things are completely different. Cesar Millan is riding on this old-fashioned way of thinking and taking unsuspecting dog owners along with the ride...a ride that most professionals got off years ago.

Dominance, as in the ethological concept, is completely different to Cesar Millan's use of the term. To understand dominance, dominance hierarchies, pecking orders etc., you need to do some serious _scientific_ reading. If you wanted to learn astrology, you wouldn't learn everything from a TV show. Yet, people think that by watching CM, they are now experts of dog behaviour without doing an ounce of study into the science of applied animal behaviour and ethology. Wolves do not, we know now, live in linear dominance hierarchies and, what's more, dogs are not wolves!

For now though, your Akita will NOT challenge you for dominance. You do not live in a pack with your Akita and your main priority should be to socialise your dog adequately to people, dogs, children, men, women...everything and anything. Training should be fun and positive, so as to teach your dog human-acceptable manners.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Verbatim said:


> That sounds a far better compromise than just having the dog PTS.
> 
> Spread the word among local dog walkers so that you have lots of eyes being kept firmly on the dog. Do you have to have witnessed the owners breaking the conditions of the control order, or does it count for anyone reporting/witnessing it?
> 
> Hopefully it'll give the dogs owner a kick up the bum.


I'd give them another kick up the bum and take them to the small claims court to *make* them pay for Bizkit's vet costs. Hitting people in the pocket helps drive home the message.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Burrowzig said:


> I'd give them another kick up the bum and take them to the small claims court to *make* them pay for Bizkit's vet costs.  Hitting people in the pocket helps drive home the message.


I'm going to go round and see them later and present them with the vet bill. I think from her attitude when I spoke to her Sunday and when she spoke to the police there's a good chance she'll pay it without court action.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

metaldog said:


> I'm going to go round and see them later and present them with the vet bill. I think from her attitude when I spoke to her Sunday and when she spoke to the police there's a good chance she'll pay it without court action.


Fingers crossed it does


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> With all do respect 5rivers79, this information is horrendously out-of-date. 30 years ago, this is the way everyone thought, and it was very successful as it created a very romantic image of humans and dogs living in some sort of hierarchy whereby we needed to 'lead' and show our control. *BUT*, we now know that things are completely different. Cesar Millan is riding on this old-fashioned way of thinking and taking unsuspecting dog owners along with the ride...a ride that most professionals got off years ago.
> 
> Dominance, as in the ethological concept, is completely different to Cesar Millan's use of the term. To understand dominance, dominance hierarchies, pecking orders etc., you need to do some serious _scientific_ reading. If you wanted to learn astrology, you wouldn't learn everything from a TV show. Yet, people think that by watching CM, they are now experts of dog behaviour without doing an ounce of study into the science of applied animal behaviour and ethology. Wolves do not, we know now, live in linear dominance hierarchies and, what's more, dogs are not wolves!
> 
> For now though, your Akita will NOT challenge you for dominance. You do not live in a pack with your Akita and your main priority should be to socialise your dog adequately to people, dogs, children, men, women...everything and anything. Training should be fun and positive, so as to teach your dog human-acceptable manners.


Im sorry to hear about your Akita Leashed For Life.

Thanks for the info Rottiefan but im not saying im an expert after watching the tv programme. All im saying is for those that he helps it seems to work but always at the start he says to consult a professional in your own area.

The trainer where i took my pup also emphasised showing my pup "who's the boss" as in walking out of doors first, eating before him and being firm when he gets out of hand and also in class when i was sat down Samson got on to my laps with his front legs and the trainer immediately told me to get him off as he is showing me early signs of dominance etc so all i am going by is what trainers have told me.

As for those sites i listed from the web that seems to be the general theme on every akita website i have visited so again i am just going by research i have done online.

Id love to socialise Samson with anybody and everybody but apart from the classes (where even the trainers said Akitas have to handled firmly) everyone when i go to the park seems to keep their dogs away from Samson, people cross the road, pick up their kids so it becomes very difficult when people and that even includes extended family are scared of the breed.

The only dogs i have been able to socialise him with is a year old Akita who he loves to play and wrestle with but dont get to see him that often. A Rottweiler who the owner allows the two to sniff each others noses but any play is forbidden as he is scared it might turn to a fight...and also a Rottweiler cross who after the initial sniff the owner keeps about a metre away from Samson as his dog is extremely aggressive.

The problem is there are alot of owners of BIG dogs including GSD's Rottweilers and Huge American Akitas in my area and because they donbt know how their dogs will react they seem to keep their dogs apart.

A off leash GSD ran over to Samson the other day and the owner could not recall it no matter how much he called. The GSD had met Samson before so sprinted over but stayed about a metre away then slowly approaching and sniffing. The owner ran over and quickly leashed him and pulled him away and apologised.

People are afraid to let dogs mingle which is a real shame especially the people in my area. :cryin:


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

That is a shame, Charlie plays with everyone from a tiny puppy Bichon Frise to rotweilers and rhodesian ridgebacks. I try not to stereotype and just ask the owner if they are friendly and can play or at least say hello.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Yup it is a shame, but since my neighbourhood is high on the crime list people raise their dogs to be very protective and gaurd their properties. Most big dogs i have come across live in their owners gardens. 

Samson on the other hand lives inside and even sleeps in the same room as i do. He hates it when i go out without him, runs up to the front window to watch me go lol


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

> *5rivers79* Sorry but i dont see what my owning a dog for the last 8 months has got anything to do with anything? With all your experience of dogs does that make you a professional dog behaviourist?


What that has to do with this is experience and I have more experience of owning dogs than you, that is not an opinion it is a fact. I absolutely do not proclaim to be a professional dog behaviourist, but I do know my own dog and I was there and saw what happened and you did not. Even though I've had dogs all my life I learn new things every day. However, from reading your posts it seems like you think you have become a behaviourist by watching the dog whisperer and having a dog for 8 months. I go to training classes and the trainer is also a behaviourist and in all our conversations about my dog's behaviours, and there have been many, she has never said Bizkit provokes a negative reaction from other dogs so I would prefer to take on board her professional opinion than your unprofessional one. 



> *5rivers79*Can you also please tell me whats wrong with liking a programme which advocates looking for alternatives to putting dangerous dogs to sleep? Yeh he wrestles dogs, but these dogs would otherwise be destroyed...and that imo will always be the better solution.


I used to like the dog whisperer and think his methods were wonderful. But since I have become more educated by my trainer/behaviourist and some of the very knowledgeable trainers/behaviourists in this forum I've used positive reinforcement and rewards for training so my view has changed because I can see that his methods are harsh and out of date. It makes me uncomfortable to watch the show now because I can see how stressed some of the dogs become. However, I still think what he did for Apollo the Rotweiler on death row was awesome 



> *5rivers79*I live in a very rough neighbourhood where people keep dogs for protection and gaurding more than anything else..big dogs are constantly running down their garden alley ways barking and going mental.


Sounds very much like where like where I live, but as my house is on a dead end street I have to walk out the bottom onto the road where both these dogs live...I don't have an option to avoid them.



> *5rivers79*Anyway since your the expert here i guess i should bow down and heed thy advice from now on oh great one.


If you knew a bit about me and read some of my previous posts you would realise that I do not force advice on others. I only responded to your rather harsh comments about my dog. I personally find unsolicited advice quite rude. I thought the tone of your posts was condescending, rude & lacking empathy that I had just been injured and was caring for a sick dog who had been terrorised.



> *5rivers79*
> By the way my pup was attacked by a Boxer when he was only 5 months old..the Boxer ripped open my pups nose. Yes it was scary and i could have reported it...the Boxer only lives right opposite my house so the potential for it to happen again is always there..After talking to the owner i let it pass..we go for walks at different times and keep the dogs away from each other and both dogs are happy. What would i have achieved by reporting it? A dog put to sleep??


Are you in the UK? In the UK we don't have any legislation for dog on dog aggression, so a dog wouldn't be PTS for biting another dog. But it may be different where you live. By reporting the dog for biting me I have achieved getting the owners to agree to contain & control their dog. I may have actually saved it's life if they stick to the control order because then it won't have the opportunity to bite someone else.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> Im sorry to hear about your Akita Leashed For Life.
> 
> Thanks for the info Rottiefan but im not saying im an expert after watching the tv programme. All im saying is for those that he helps it seems to work but always at the start he says to consult a professional in your own area.
> 
> ...


Maybe these people are being over cautious or maybe they know their dogs have/do show aggression so are taking prevnatative measures.

When I first got Roxy I was told by a couple of people we met whilst out 'Oh, she'll be fine' - how they knew her better than me I don't know. In nearly every case she wasn't fine & snapped/bit the dog that came running over to her (despite me telling the owner she did not like other dogs) & of course it was my fault 

Not only did this impact their dogs it also reinforced to Roxy that if she snapped/bit then the 'scary dog' went away  It made her behaviour worse around other dogs although we did still make every effort to continue trying to take her out where other dogs were around. It just meant I had to try harder & find places where other dogs may that were leashed to avoid any further instances.

She has improved massively recently but this has been through structured meets not just letting her 'get on with it' with any dog she meets when out as I want all encounters with other dogs to be positive so we can over come her reactivity, try & get her more relaxed around other dogs or when she sees other dogs.

Sometimes people don't let their dogs mix because there is good reason for it not just because they don't want their dogs to have fun. before I got Roxy I used to think that some people should just lighten up  but now I do understand how difficult it can be for some dogs ... & their owners!


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

metaldog said:


> What that has to do with this is experience and I have more experience of owning dogs than you, that is not an opinion it is a fact. I absolutely do not proclaim to be a professional dog behaviourist, but I do know my own dog and I was there and saw what happened and you did not. Even though I've had dogs all my life I learn new things every day. However, from reading your posts it seems like you think you have become a behaviourist by watching the dog whisperer and having a dog for 8 months. I go to training classes and the trainer is also a behaviourist and in all our conversations about my dog's behaviours, and there have been many, she has never said Bizkit provokes a negative reaction from other dogs so I would prefer to take on board her professional opinion than your unprofessional one.
> 
> I used to like the dog whisperer and think his methods were wonderful. But since I have become more educated by my trainer/behaviourist and some of the very knowledgeable trainers/behaviourists in this forum I've used positive reinforcement and rewards for training my view has changed because I can see that his methods are harsh and out of date. It makes me uncomfortable to watch the show now because I can see how stressed some of the dogs become. However, I still think what he did for Apollo the Rotweiler on death row was awesome
> 
> ...


Lady you jump the gun far too quick, if you read my initial comment all i said was *maybe* your dog winds him up, i even said i dont wanna sound rude. You didnt need to go on the defensive. I didnt blame you or your dog just stated it *might* have been a factor. If someone had said that to me id take it in and find out more about it to see if there was any root to the problem..i certainly wouldnt become all out defensive regarding the matter.

In fact its rude for you to say i think im an expert in dog behaviour..if i thought that i would not have joined this forum. Im here to learn from people with experience like you as i am new to owning a dog but that does not mean i will not voice my opinion. That is the whole point of a forum.

Its great you take your dogs to training. But so do i..and what i have voiced on here is what i have learnt from my trainer who is also a behaviourist along with the second trainer who is also a vetinary nurse. I have been taught that even dogs looking at each other in certain ways can spark off aggression.

Anyway like i said before im no expert and im here to learn and give opinion, especially if pro dog trainers have told me something which i think maybe helpful to tell others on here.


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> Anyway like i said before im no expert and im here to learn and give opinion, especially if pro dog trainers have told me something which i think maybe helpful to tell others on here.


Unfortunately you need to learn that this forum has appropriate sections for debating theories of training, and for offering advice. I have a feeling you'll fit in very well at the Dog Training and Behaviour section...

The OP posted a traumatic experience and I don't think she ever asked for opinions as to why it had happened...she wanted support at a difficult time - specifically regarding what decision to make in terms of the Police Officer. Thats why it's posted in Dog Chat!

Therefore your 'helpful suggestion' was unsolicited and not received well. And the subsequent arguing about it isn't sensible either.

I think all this debating should stop now. I think those of you who'd like to debate it, perhaps go start a new threat about aggression in the appropriate section?


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Helbo said:


> Unfortunately you need to learn that this forum has appropriate sections for debating theories of training, and for offering advice. I have a feeling you'll fit in very well at the Dog Training and Behaviour section...
> 
> The OP posted a traumatic experience and I don't think she ever asked for opinions as to why it had happened...she wanted support at a difficult time - specifically regarding what decision to make in terms of the Police Officer. Thats why it's posted in Dog Chat!
> 
> ...


She asked for an opinion on whether the dog should be under a control order or pts. Anyway like you said, its over so move on.


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> She asked for an opinion on whether the dog should be under a control order or pts. Anyway like you said, its over so move on.


Yes - I did say she wanted to discuss the decision the PO was asking her to make....


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> Lady you jump the gun far too quick, if you read my initial comment all i said was *maybe* your dog winds him up, i even said i dont wanna sound rude.


Everything before a but is irrelevant in the written and spoken word, it's called sugar coating 

E.G. I'm not being rude but I think your really ugly. Saying someone is really ugly is rude and saying you're not being rude before it doesn't negate the fact it is rude. If I had to say and I don't want to be rude before i said something I would seriously question my motives for saying it.



5rivers79 said:


> In fact its rude for you to say i think im an expert in dog behaviour..if i thought that i would not have joined this forum. Im here to learn from people with experience like you as i am new to owning a dog but that does not mean i will not voice my opinion. That is the whole point of a forum.


I didn't say you *do* think you are a professional behaviourist I said


> However, *from reading your posts it seems* like you think you have become a behaviourist by watching the dog whisperer and having a dog for 8 months.


 That is just how I interpreted things and is my opinion. I'm not saying don't voice your opinion, but some of the threads on here are for support rather than wanting people's opinions on how to train a dog etc, mine was. I wanted support because I was really upset & I made the first post about 20 minutes after the attack happened.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

metaldog said:


> Everything before a but is irrelevant in the written and spoken word, it's called sugar coating
> 
> E.G. I'm not being rude but I think your really ugly. Saying someone is really ugly is rude and saying you're not being rude before it doesn't negate the fact it is rude. If I had to say and I don't want to be rude before i said something I would seriously question my motives for saying it.
> 
> I didn't say you *do* think you are a professional behaviourist I said That is just how I interpreted things and is my opinion. I'm not saying don't voice your opinion, but some of the threads on here are for support rather than wanting people's opinions on how to train a dog etc, mine was. I wanted support because I was really upset & I made the first post about 20 minutes after the attack happened.


Ok, i hope you and your little doggy are fine.

(I still wont agree with putting dogs to sleep )


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> Ok, i hope you and your little doggy are fine.
> 
> (I still wont agree with putting dogs to sleep )


Thank you 

Finally something we can agree on :lol: I don't want the dog put to sleep either  I can only hope the owners take the proper precautions and he has a long and happy life


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

5rivers79 said:


> as for Mr Milans methods..well they work..and the owners are greatful for that. The Bernard was cured of his fear of stairs


Hey, I remember that episode!! It was one of the few that had me shouting at the telly..fancy a dog expert encouraging a large breed puppy to go up and downstairs, no doubt increasing the risk of joint problems in later life.
Doh!!


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> Hey, I remember that episode!! It was one of the few that had me shouting at the telly..fancy a dog expert encouraging a large breed puppy to go up and downstairs, no doubt increasing the risk of joint problems in later life.
> Doh!!


Yes but whether or not the Bernard does it again is upto the owners. Atleast its not afraid of stairs anymore


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> The trainer where i took my pup also emphasised showing my pup "who's the boss"
> as in *walk out of doors first, eat before him & be firm when he gets out of hand and also in class*...
> [EX] when i... sat down, Samson got onto my lap with his front legs & the trainer immediately told me to *"get him off,
> as he is showing me early signs of dominance"*, etc, so all i am going by is what trainers have told me.
> ...


Suggestions - 
* find some new trainers! 
a training-club can be a very economical way to meet folks & friendly dogs under decent control; 
just be sure they aren't talking dominance-twaddle before U join.

* that it's said on the Web does not make it so - ppl swear up, down & sideways that certain BREEDS 
'must be' dominated, physically or mentally or ___ . Put it this way: if U think of Ur dog as an adversary, 
that's what U get - if U think of Ur dog as a partner who just needs some lessons, that's what U get. 
which one do U want, in the end? *a powerful guarding breed can trust & protect U, or DIStrust U & protect 
themselves from U; do U want to be on the same side of the fence with Ur dog as an ally, or on the opposite side... 
with Ur dog as an untrusting, slightly-suspicious, live-in frenemy?* in the end, it's a choice. 
even the seriously-aggro clients' dogs WANT someone to partner with; they don't want enmity.

* find a way to get Samson out of Ur neighborhood to meet friendly dogs, soon! he's not a baby anymore; 
find a beach with friendly resident dogs, a wood path, any place where U meet other dogs & people BEFORE 
U bring Samson, with a nice group roaming round. Go without the dog first - 
carry a leash, talk to people. 
tell them U have a nice young dog who needs playmates!

* ask on Dog-Chat if anybody knows a likely area, maybe some PF-uk folks will meet U & Samson. :001_smile:

* he's 10-MO, & U did not mention neutering; i'd also suggest that, ASAP. it will reduce his aggro, especially 
toward other male-dogs; one thing U did not mention & which is true is that Akitas are likely to be dog-aggro, 
& males are especially-likely to be Male-Dog Aggro. nipping this before it becomes entrenched is important.

* if there truly are NO other dog-trainers, clubs, etc, local or within reach... go to LLAMAS 
& find the Levels Training, it's a DIY manual from the ground up, EVERYthing, with proofing built-in. 
it's free, it's self-paced & thorough; there's a Yahoo-group just for folks going thru the levels [trainingLevels], 
there's a free on-line LOG to track Ur progress, there are videos of self-tests & demos & challenges on UTube... 
there are literally people around the world using Training-Levels, including trainers who use them in classes, 
as a class-manual.

Samson is way-past his socialization period, but U can make up some missed time; however, with every passing day, 
he is more mature & his 'habits' are more set - *time is of the essence,* since the longer he practices anything, 
the more concrete it becomes, & the more work it takes to change his behavior. 

i hope U find some friendly folks, helpful trainers, & dog-buddies for Samson.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> Suggestions -
> * find some new trainers!
> a training-club can be a very economical way to meet folks & friendly dogs under decent control;
> just be sure they aren't talking dominance-twaddle before U join.
> ...


Problem is this trainer is well known and highly rated in the Birmingham area. The two vets i have been to recommend him and so do people around the area as does the groomers i take him to..

Yes your right he has not yet been neutered but he does not show any dog aggression at all yet, he just loves to play although it can be a little rough with larger dogs.

YouTube - ‪Sammy Playing With Another Akita‬‏

Sammy is the smaller Akita

I dont want to flare up any debates but alot of people have approached me asking if id use him as a stud to which i reply he is too young yet so i dont know...

Also living in the city does not help as the beach is very far away and Samson gets travel sick when in a car.

I really appreciate the tips and help you are giving me. Lets hope i can find some owners that arent scared of him!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> ...this trainer is well known & highly rated in the Birmingham area.
> The two vets i have been to recommend him... so do people around the area & the groomers i take him to...


that may all be absolutely true; he may be well-known & highly reputed locally. 
but vets are not trainers, & here in the USA unless they're vet-*behaviorists*, the only training 
they get in dog-behavior or handling is *how to safely restrain one that's fighting to get away, & how to muzzle.* 
vets have to know anatomy, symptoms, physiology, pharmacology etc, for dogs, cats, & other species - asking them 
to learn behavior as well, won't happen. It's too much.

so vets, like groomers, are not behaviorally-knowledgeable; a vet wants the #$#! dog to hold #$^%&! still. 
so does the groomer; this means they don't CARE if the primary result is a shut-down dog, in fact that's good.

so i'd still look for someone who's not preaching dominance & pack-theory; APDT-uk is good. 
is Ur current trainer a member? [doubting this, but just to check.]


5rivers79 said:


> ...he has not yet been neutered but he does not show any dog-aggro... yet, he just loves to play although
> it can be a little rough with larger dogs.


betting here - 
when he sees another male-dog, he gets up on his toes slightly, his tail & head rise, ears come forward, 
his tongue retracts & his *mouth closes*; he stands leaning toward them - all body-language is forward. 
his eyes may or may not harden, but his focus is intense.

that's a classic male-to-male display. With age & practice, they grow less & less social, & more pushy.
if he were mine, i'd save the grief & snip him, ASAP. he's 10-MO, in his testosterone PEAK of a lifetime; 
it goes down to adult-levels somewhere in 11 to 12-MO. *stuff he learns cannot be 'un-learned'.* 
that includes M:M reactivity - it can be reduced once learned, but not erased.


5rivers79 said:


> ...a lot of people have approached me asking if id use him as a stud,
> to which i reply he is too young yet so i dont know...


bad idea; he is out of an unregistered bitch so not likely purebred, he is not good re type, & U are a novice owner - 
let alone breeder. Check out the AVAR list of potential tests, & consider he should be a MINIMUM of 2-YO before 
any breeding - since 85% of all heritable problems that he will be affected by, will show symptoms by 24-mos.

how much will those tests cost, if U want to save money on a walking-harness? 
hip & knee X-rays, SA-skin-punches, 5-way thyroid panel read by Mich State Univ vet-lab, Brucella blood-test... 
& a canine-opthalmologist eye-certificate - those are *minimum.*
_Brucella_ is a k9-STD, transmitted by either gender, which can cause sterility, miscarriage, or chronic illness.
it is also transmissible to people - or cattle.


5rivers79 said:


> ...the beach is very far away and Samson gets travel sick when in a car.
> 
> I really appreciate the tips and help you are giving me. Lets hope i can find some owners that arent scared of him!


bummer about the carsick!

maybe some other PF-uk folks know dog-walking areas for safe socializing, near U?


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Okay, this is my last post on this thread, but it is not a disruptive one, but a helpful one 



5rivers79 said:


> Thanks for the info Rottiefan but im not saying im an expert after watching the tv programme. All im saying is for those that he helps *it seems to work* but always at the start he says to consult a professional in your own area.


Yup, it does seem to work. However, the methods are based on suppressing a bad behaviour, rather than curing. More often than not, the dog's confidence is effected, causing behavioural fallout (other behaviour problems). If someone poked you ever time you did something, you would stop too, wouldn't you? But it isn't a good method to _teach_ new behaviours.



> The trainer where i took my pup also emphasised showing my pup "who's the boss" as in walking out of doors first, eating before him and being firm when he gets out of hand and also in class when i was sat down Samson got on to my laps with his front legs and the trainer immediately told me to get him off as he is showing me early signs of dominance etc so all i am going by is what trainers have told me.


There's no 'signs of dominance' there. In fact, that phrase doesn't make sense in the true meaning of the term. Walking through doors first etc., are all old-fashioned, exhausted theories to assert pack leadership. But, truth is, dogs don't care about those things...they don't have doors in the wild etc. In fact, high-ranking animals will stay back and not lead, due to the higher chance of injury. They may also offer food to youngsters first in times of scarcity.



> Id love to socialise Samson with anybody and everybody but apart from the classes (where even the trainers said Akitas have to handled firmly) everyone when i go to the park seems to keep their dogs away from Samson, people cross the road, pick up their kids so it becomes very difficult when people and that even includes extended family are scared of the breed.


If I could give you one piece of advice, it would be to NOT handle Samson firmly. This is what prolongs the image of Akitas and similar breeds of being difficult, 'dominant' dogs- the owners handle them badly and actually create a bad situation. Your dog needs to be socialised well, particularly with small dogs. Focus work and a good 'Watch' command should be taught early, especially around small animals (squirrels, birds etc.). Akitas are dogs who are always on alert and have a greater propensity to become fearful/defensive in certain situations. Adequate socialisation will teach him to be more confident (NB: 'confident' means happy, social and tolerant of different situations...not pushy or difficult to handle )



> The only dogs i have been able to socialise him with is a year old Akita who he loves to play and wrestle with but dont get to see him that often. A Rottweiler who the owner allows the two to sniff each others noses but any play is forbidden as he is scared it might turn to a fight...and also a Rottweiler cross who after the initial sniff the owner keeps about a metre away from Samson as his dog is extremely aggressive.
> 
> The problem is there are alot of owners of BIG dogs including GSD's Rottweilers and Huge American Akitas in my area and because they donbt know how their dogs will react they seem to keep their dogs apart.
> 
> ...


Yes, it sounds difficult and it is not uncommon. Socialisation is only a small window (between 8 and 14 weeks old) and after that, fears can begin to manifest. Have you tried putting a local advert in the newspaper/magazine, asking for an older, steady dog to socialise/walk with? I would look into a much better training class, with an APDT, APBC or COAPE qualified behaviourist/trainer. They should have well-structured classes and encourage good socialisation. You can meet friends and take it from there.

A dog that doesn't meet other dogs and people regularly is a dog that can become socially inept and fearful of new situations. With a large dog like yours, the last thing you want is for him to develop fears and aggression problems.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

The trainer which held the classes that i took Sammy to is a ADTB & Jan Fennell Approved trainer.


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## russ (Jan 21, 2011)

thought i would chip here ive watch this thread with some interest over the last few days,i had an incident with (ripmarco)my dog a while back when he bit my cousin and yes i had a bit of a knee jerk reaction mainly because it was a shock that it had happened, the cause turned out to be a fatal blood infection and accounted for his behaviour,i seen comments on here that have tried to explain and justify why dogs attack,bite and the thought process why this happens.but im taking a big breath before i write this and firstly i would like to make it crystal clear my stance on dogs.
i look after my dogs,i clean them,i care for them,exercise and train them bring them into my family and prefer there company over a whole multitude of humans,BUT a dog that has a history of attacking both dogs and humans,and now has been reported for a further UNPROVOKED ATTACK on someone going past there home is way out of order and should be pts,how many times have we had to read or maybe people have experienced this personally that someone has been viciously attacked or at worst killed and then found out its happened numerous times before,police are aware but nothing was done or the rspca have failed to intervine,the question then is asked why wasnt it stopped the first time this has happened?i dont want to lay a guilt trip on anyone,but im 100%sure there would be more guilt felt if in a week,month,year it was reported that this dog attacked another person because a door was not shut properly or a fence was a bit worn,do i feel sorry for the dog yes 100%,do i feel sorry for the owners no-way,do i value the life of a dog over a childs face being ripped open NEVER!does that make me a dog hater i dont think so,sometimes you can do all the right things and still be wrong its no ones fault thats life


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> The trainer [who] held the classes... Sammy [& i went] to, is a ADTB & Jan Fennell Approved trainer.


huh! :huh: i went over the ADTB-reading-list, & aside from Ms Fennel's dash of chives, it's a good list... 
where did he get all the *Dumbinance* stuff? does he teach any clicker-training classes?

if not, why not? ADTB have many of them on the reading list. 


> Click to Calm: Healing the Aggressive Dog (...
> by Emma Parsons
> 
> Holistic Aromatherapy for Animals
> ...


Pam Dennison, Pat Miller, Brenda Aloff, & Emma Parsons are all colleagues; Karen Pryor has been a virtual mentor 
of mine since about 1988. *Peggy Tillman*'s book is excellent.

as for Ms Fennel, let's just say i think it's flannel.  she spouts a lot of pack-theory, too. 
dogs R dogs, not wolves, coyotes, foxes or hyenas - Dogs.

to quote RottieFan - 


> _ I would look into a much better training class, with an *APDT-uk, APBC or COAPE qualified* [*instructor*].
> They should have well-structured classes & encourage good socialisation. You can meet friends & take it from there. _


APDT-uk trainers are the minimum i'd recommend; APBC is even-better, COAPE is excellent if within reach. :thumbup:


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

There's soo many trainers each with own theories all with their back up arguments. Its almost become political lol


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> The trainer which held the classes that i took Sammy to is a ADTB & Jan Fennell Approved trainer.





5rivers79 said:


> There's soo many trainers each with own theories all with their back up arguments. Its almost become political lol


Yes, it has unfortunately. There is many pitfalls for the unsuspecting pet owner, who just want to do the best for their dogs.

The ADTB trainer you went to may have preferred all of Jan Fennell's theories, which are basically the same as the old-fashioned dominance ('dumbinance' ) theories promoted by CM. However, her methods are less physical.

I think the old-style training philosophies give people more sense of purpose with their dogs, the idea that they are 'in charge' and their dog looks up to them in a romantic context. But, realistically, this is an idealisation of the truth. We can bond strongly with our dogs, no doubt, but they don't put us on a pedestal in some ways that people want to believe.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

That's the thing, you will swear by your methods and they will swear by theirs. I just think aslong as the pup is well socialised and not showing any negative traits then whats the point in going to these classes.

The classes that i really wanted to take Sammy on are agility or shutzhund classes..what do you guys think of those?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> The classes that i really wanted to take Sammy on are agility or shutzhund classes... what do you guys think of those?


agility is terrific for building directability & self-control & a powerful connection with the handler as team-mate; 
it's huge fun. but he needs good foundation-training before he ever touches an obstacle - he needs to pace 
beside U as U run, walk or halt, sit & down on cue OUT OF MOTION & stay there [pause table], HOLD a start-line, 
come when called reliably off-leash, be able to follow left or right [directional cues], & more.

i'd get started on the foundation training - personally, i'd go to http://wwwdragonflyllama.com 
& use the Levels-Training manual - it's free, very very thorough, & *proofing* is built into every step. 
there are no 'gaps' that force U to back-track & re-teach: it is taught right the first time, & proofed reliably once taught - 
saving huge amounts of time.

my friends Cathy Toft & Marda are agility-trainers & competitors - they run a Yahoo-group for agility, & they are 
very well-known for being welcoming to beginners; Marda is nationally placed. 
agilitytalk : AgilityTalk 
they may know some good trainers in the UK.

Schutz is a discipline with a helluva lot of harsh handlers, trainers & instructors - there are few ways that 
i can think of which will lose the biddability & break the bond with an Akita faster than forceful training. 
i'd find a motivational trainer who does NOT use a choke-chain, helicopter the dog, or strangle the dog 
to force an out, but rewards the dog for performing well. They're not common, but they're out there.

this is a colleague of mine who both bred & titled this dog [Eureka] and others, using reward-training - 
YouTube - ‪team raika, denise fenzi‬‏

Denise Fenzi is well-known for her bloodlines, her dogs' performances, & her own reward-based training. 
Teresa Lewin is another friend who has a Schutz-titled, reward-trained dog; hers is a male GSD. 
she's in Canada; Denise is in the USA.

i met a man who was smacking his then 6-MO male Akita around when he failed to hold a sit-stay - 
he actually scruffed the pup one-handed with his fist wrapped around a hunk of skin, elevated the pup off all 4-feet, 
& hit him full across the face, twice - with the back of his other hand, snapping the pup's head back & forth.
i personally hold a fond, fervent hope that when his puppy [who was actually very well-behaved for his age] 
hit over 90# as an adult, one sweet day, he just looked at that prize *%$&*#@$!* & said, _*'that's enuf - i've had it.',*_ 
& ripped H*** outta him.

if ever a pig-ignorant, hard-handed, stone-cold b*st*rd deserved it, he did.

U have to remember that a guarding-breed can defend us from threats, or defend themselves FROM us. 
i'd much rather have my dog as an ally than an enemy. U can choose for Urself.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

5rivers79 said:


> The trainer which held the classes that i took Sammy to is a ADTB & Jan Fennell Approved trainer.


Personally, out of experience, I would avoid a Jan Fennell approved trainer like the plague. I've had one over to my house and been to see Jan speak in public. She's a nice woman, but like Cesar Milan, her theories are akin to castle built on sand.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Snoringbear said:


> Personally, out of experience, I would avoid a Jan Fennell approved trainer like the plague. I've had one over to my house and been to see Jan speak in public. She's a nice woman, but like Cesar Milan, her theories are akin to castle built on sand.


Like i said earliar the two different camps will always have their own arguments and both will be able to back up these arguments with cases that have worked. Something that is the welfare should not have become political as it has in this instance.

Also leashed for life, the guy you speak about does sound like a grade A prick and to be honest after what told me he did to a pup i dont think i would have been able to watch what he was doing without stepping in.

I dont believe in choke chains at all, i dont even like collars..as you know im looking for a harness..

Id be interested in hearing more of this reward based shutzhund. Its a shame family dogs cant be taken on training similar to what police dogs get.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Well that's my thread well and truly hijacked


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

metaldog said:


> Well that's my thread well and truly hijacked


Jacked up good and proper


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

5rivers79 said:


> Like i said earliar the two different camps will always have their own arguments and both will be able to back up these arguments with cases that have worked. Something that is the welfare should not have become political as it has in this instance.
> 
> Also leashed for life, the guy you speak about does sound like a grade A prick and to be honest after what told me he did to a pup i dont think i would have been able to watch what he was doing without stepping in.
> 
> ...


Dominance based trianing beliefs may produce results, but those results aren't because of the theories behind them. Dominance theory has long been scientifically and academically disproven. Interestingly one of its main modern debunkers is actually one of the people instrumental in presenting it as a theory many decades ago - David Mech. Famously, he requested that the publisher of his early dominance theory book be withdrawn from circulation as he flet it was totally incorrect but also damaging. However, they refused as it was a good seller 

This is a good article on why dominance theory is incorrect:
What′s wrong with using 'dominance&rs to explain the behaviour of dogs?

David Mech refuting his early beliefs:
YouTube - ‪"Alpha" Wolf?‬‏


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> Also leashed for life, the guy you speak about [who hoisted & hit his pup in the face] does sound
> like a grade A prick... TBH after what  told me he did to a pup, i dont think i would have been able to watch
> what he was doing without stepping in.



he was reported to Animal Control for his abusive behavior; sadly, nobody got it as photo or video at the time, 
so no action could be taken other than a verbal warning from an ACO. i sincerely hope he was caught again, 
& *documented* with continued subsequent abuse.


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