# She just WON'T go out!



## angethehippy (Jul 8, 2009)

Morning readers, this is the problem:

We moved home on 21 January and kept the 2 cats, Tia, elderly and not really ours, we're fostering her long term, and will go out IF taken out - but we've seen her using the garden as a toilet. OK, can put up with that, we back onto open fields and I can see her venturing out soon. Manic Milly is a different kettle of fish! In the old home, I had problems keeping her in - she was always escaping! NOT the case here... she's terrified. There are other cats about, and the previous house owners had 3 of them. Milly though, as soon as I take her out, she's back indoors again. Getting a bit desperate now, the litter box is becoming expensive (NOT kitten sized gifts being left. . . ) and she should be going out.

HELP, I'll welcome all suggestions..

A


----------



## buffie (May 31, 2010)

This isn't going to be the reply you are looking for but you should always provide at least one litter tray for your cats,especially your older one.
It looks to me that your cats are not comfortable toileting outdoors so you really have to put them first,if you use a decent clumping litter it is not expensive at all something like OkO plus.......Cats Best Öko Plus biodegradable Cat Litter Bargains at Zooplus
It looks expensive but will last for ages ,as the wee's clump and can be removed easily ,I use it,remove wee clumps as soon as possible top the litter up as neededand only do a complete litter change every 4/6 weeks .


----------



## Erenya (Jul 22, 2014)

Give her some time. We moved on the 21st December and if I'm honest, it was only in mid-late Feb that our little boy was properly at ease with the new place. 

Maybe on the weekend - or at some point when you're in during the day - you go out with her and play with her in the garden with a favourite toy and some treats so that she starts to associate being outside with nice things.

it might also be that the garden smells like other cats - any cats in the area would have thoroughly marked an unoccupied garden as theirs - and as cats are notoriously scent orientated she might be a bit freaked out. This should change as soon as she and your other cat spend more time outdoors marking their territory as theirs.


----------



## angethehippy (Jul 8, 2009)

Hi buffie, the older cat doesn't mind weeing outdoors... they will always have a tray at nkight times anyway, AND be confined to the house during darkness, it's just that Manic Milly really DOES NOT want to even go out and explore...



buffie said:


> This isn't going to be the reply you are looking for but you should always provide at least one litter tray for your cats,especially your older one.
> It looks to me that your cats are not comfortable toileting outdoors so you really have to put them first,if you use a decent clumping litter it is not expensive at all something like OkO plus.......Cats Best Öko Plus biodegradable Cat Litter Bargains at Zooplus
> It looks expensive but will last for ages ,as the wee's clump and can be removed easily ,I use it,remove wee clumps as soon as possible top the litter up as neededand only do a complete litter change every 4/6 weeks .


----------



## buffie (May 31, 2010)

angethehippy said:


> Hi buffie, the older cat doesn't mind weeing outdoors... *they will always have a tray at nkight times anyway*, AND be confined to the house during darkness, it's just that Manic Milly really DOES NOT want to even go out and explore...


Sorry thought you meant you were trying to do without trays entirely  ,but it may be that you will just have to "bite the bullet" and have a tray 24/7 if that is what your cats want.
All mine have been indoor/access to cat run only apart from one,a semi-feral who eventually lived in the house but he soon learned that it was a much better bet to come in to use the tray and go back out again,and that was after years of living outdoors as an unneutered tom


----------



## jill3 (Feb 18, 2009)

I would just leave her. If she is happy to be at home then so be it.
Maybe when the weather gets warmer she will go out then.
I have had elderly cats and they do only like to go out when the weather is nice.
Have 3 young ones now but at the moment because it's cold and windy they are not out for long.

We use oko plus from Zooplus. Lasts ages and is cheaper than the stuff you buy in super markets. No smells either


----------



## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

If she doesn't want to go out, let her stay in. Why on earth does it matter? Why force a cat to do something she is afraid of? 

Leave her alone and let her be a house cat if that's what she chooses.


----------



## angethehippy (Jul 8, 2009)

Thanks everyone for your answers. It IS windy and has been for some days now and she really doesn't like the wind. Just that it's odd I couldn't keep her in at the old house, yet this is the exact opposite. As for the house itself, she 
L-O-V-E-S it ... never seen her so happy, OR the older cat to be truthful...


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

I'll second everyone else - try switching to a good clumping litter. It may cost more to buy initially, but as you only throw away what is soiled, it lasts for ages. I switched from CatSan a couple of years ago, and as well as saving myself a small fortune it's a lot less smelly, too! I use Greencat at the moment, which is quite similar to OKO.

Another thing that might help the smell is changing their food - what are they eating at the moment? If it's from a supermarket or the vet (whiskas, Felix, IAMS, Royal Canin, shops own brand etc,) then the chances are it isn't meat based a tall, but grain based with enough meat in to give your average cat enough nutrition to get by. As cats can't digest grain at all, it just goes straight through them and comes out the other end - stinking! I switched to grain free food a few years ago too, and went from being able to tell when my cat went for a poo instantly, to having to go and physically check the tray to see if she had been, the difference was that great


----------



## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

angethehippy said:


> Morning readers, this is the problem:
> 
> Getting a bit desperate now, the litter box is becoming expensive (NOT kitten sized gifts being left. . . ) and she should be going out.
> 
> A


 I have no response to this


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

not to put too fine a point on it, & i'm sure this won't be a welcome post, *but...*

surely U've noticed how many posts there are on PF-uk, over time, all headed, _"Fluffy's missing!"..._ 
or praps, _"Max was hit by a car!"..._  --- and we're all supposed to commiserate, of course, & make
suggestions to help find Fluffy, or promise to post her photo on our FB-page with a 'Missing' poster, or mourn
poor Max, who either was hit & hurt, or possibly hit & killed, or hit & ran off, & no-one knows where he may be,
or if he's alive.

If Molly has brains-enuf to recognize that A, this is a new & strange place, & B, there are threatening cats
in the area, i give her enormous credit for doing the more-intelligent thing, & staying indoors - where it's safe[r].
I'd say she's not 'manic', but sensible.

And in my probly unwelcome personal opinion, no doubt Ur new neighbors are happy NOT to have yet more 
cat-stool tucked into their landscaping, & NOT to have yet more cat-fights between those happily marking-away, 
extremely-territorial cats... roaming at large among the houses. 

Two fewer contenders in the 'hood?... :thumbsup: A very good thing, i think. For their own safety,
& for the community as a whole.

As for the litter & odor issue, what right do U have to palm off YOUR cats' poop & stink on others? - :blink:
The neighbors who DON'T have cats can be guaranteed to dislike fecal-bombs on their own property, or p*ss
squirted on the shrubbery or door-posts - & don't tell me it doesn't happen, having been there & had just that.

I like cats - but i like them *in their own homes, or at the very least, on their owner's property.*
I don't think that's an excessive burden on cat-owners; i've kept all my cats at home. Why can't U?

And yes - 
better litter costs more, but can be :thumbup: much-less expensive to use, last longer, & stink less, too.

Don't expect Ur neighbors to subsidize Ur cat-ownership, & offer their own gardens as toilets. :thumbdown:
.
.


----------



## angethehippy (Jul 8, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> not to put too fine a point on it, & i'm sure this won't be a welcome post, *but...*
> 
> surely U've noticed how many posts there are on PF-uk, over time, all headed, _"Fluffy's missing!"..._
> or praps, _"Max was hit by a car!"..._  --- and we're all supposed to commiserate, of course, & make
> ...


Thanks leashedForLife, your post did give me a laugh. . . . found it a little accusing which I'm sure you didn't mean to. . Have you had your cats de-clawed?


----------



## The Wild Bunch (Jul 16, 2014)

Can't see the issue really? Buy better litter which will become more cost-effective. You have to speculate to accumulate first. If she doesn't want to go out, keep her in. Let her decide. My girl is a fair weather explorer although her excursions are extremely rare. Even if she goes out, she returns home to use the litter tray. Sorry it's not the answer you wanted


----------



## Treaclesmum (Sep 26, 2011)

The old house and garden was her own familiar territory, that's why she loved it. It may take a long time for her to feel so sure about this new place with all its unfamiliar smells of strange cats, she is probably terrified of being chased away by entering their territory!

If you have the chance to keep them in, then you are a very lucky person who will never suffer the guilt and pain of finding one of your cats dead in the road..


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

angethehippy said:


> Thanks leashedForLife, your post did give me a laugh. . . . found it a little accusing which I'm sure
> you didn't mean to... *Have you had your cats de-clawed?*


Never.

I did have one client who declawed their family cat for medical reasons - 
their kitty had a generally sweet nature, but a short fuse, & if she got upset, would lash out seriously.

the husband was on high-dose Coumadin, & had to go to the E-R on one occasion when the cat was
upset by the sight of a dog thru their living-room window, as she sat on his lap; he was petting her,
she saw the dog, screamed blue murder, & ripped the H*** out of his hands & arm.

It's among the very-few reasons i can see as any sort of grounds for an extreme procedure.

Even clients i've had with HIV / AIDS haven't declawed their cats, tho their Drs advised they give their cats up,
or if they kept them, to declaw them. Given that the 1st thing most HIV-patients lose is close contact
from humans, even friends & family, a cat who welcomes them home purring & wraps round their ankles
may be the only loving touch they get, from one week's end to the next.
.
.


----------



## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

angethehippy said:


> Milly though, as soon as I take her out, she's back indoors again. Getting a bit desperate now, the litter box is becoming expensive (NOT kitten sized gifts being left. . . )


Having a litter box is part & parcel of having a cat imho - it doesn't have to be expensive and / or smelly if you do it properly



angethehippy said:


> and she should be going out.


Why?

She obviously doesn't feel safe / comfortable going out

I'm sorry but I'm really struggling to understand how you can want your cat to go out when, in your own words, she's terrified 

I think I can speak for most here when I say sympathies will lie with her and not you


----------



## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Please don't push an elderly cat outside. I also live backing on to open fields and countryside. The are hundreds of foxes about, looking for easy prey. As mine get to a certain age, where they cant escape quick enough or defend themselves, they are only allowed in the garden supervised.


----------



## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

I have a feeling the answer to this was the last question, re,declawing, are the cats scratching your furniture,is that why you want them to go out,
Declawing is illegal in this country,and should be in all countries,it is cruel and painful for the cat, how would you like your fingers cut off at the first joint, sorry, but this sunbject makes my blood boil, especially when clawing is so easily remecied by buying a large cat tree or scratcher, spray some catnip on it and they will love it
I have 6 cats,and no furniture is scratched,and if your cats want to stay in its because they feel safer


----------



## angethehippy (Jul 8, 2009)

Good GRIEF jaycee05 !! Nothing as dangerously daft as jumping to conclusions !! NO, actually, they AREN'T clawing the furniture...at all. I agree however, whole-heartedly that it's an abhorrent practice, I think it's performed by (in my opinion) un-ethical Veterinarians in the USA quite a bit - unless it's been made illegal there..


----------



## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Even with outdoor cats, it can be helpful to have the litter tray inside. When my beloved Samuel was ill at the end of his life, the vet used to ask if he was using the tray as normal and I couldn't answer because he wouldn't go inside. So that was a useful diagnostic tool gone, and then, when he was in hospital, he was really distressed because he couldn't go outside, and it added to his misery. 

Get yourself a covered litter tray and some decent litter, and let your cat pee in peace. Stress, including other cats chasing her while she is at toilet, can cause all sorts of problems, like cystitis or inappropriate toileting (e.g. peeing in the house) and then there are all the problems of abscesses and other injuries if she is attacked. Is it worth it?


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

angethehippy said:


> ...
> I think it's performed *quite a bit* by (IMO) un-ethical Veterinarians in the USA -
> unless it's been made illegal, there.


Excuse me? :huh: Just what number is _"quite a bit"_...?

I'm in the U-S; there are few vets who will perform cat-deClaws at all, outside of cat-specialists,
& feline vets, for obvious reasons, would require GROUNDS to do a de-claw surgery.

De-claw surgeries were done by most small-animal vets at owner-request *in the 1960s*. That was a long
time ago, & there are no cats now living who were declawed in 1965. 
De-clawing for any casual reason became increasingly controversial in the 1970s, & by the 1980s, owners
who de-clawed their cats for anything other than medical grounds or absolutely unstoppable, rabid
property destruction, were regarded as near-monsters - & the vets who did the surgeries weren't much
better regarded.

I literally haven't SEEN a de-clawed cat in the flesh since at least 1985 - it may easily have been 1980 -
& those very few were in homes with ppl who had medical conditions that meant hospitalization if they
were scratched.

The AVMA [Am Vet Medical Assoc] published a position paper *against* de-claw surgeries as a mere
convenience to owners, years ago. Cat-deClaws have been banned in a few cities, but the AVMA's strong opinion
that they only be performed for very-specific reasons is much-more effective in solidifying vets' behavior,
as that's national - not a city nor a mere state, but affecting every practicing veterinarian.

These links are in approx chronological order - feel free to update Ur knowledge:

AVMA position statement on the declawing of domestic cats
https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/030415c.aspx‎
*Apr 15, 2003* ... 
Declawing of domestic cats should be considered only after attempts have been made to prevent 
the cat from using its claws destructively or ...

AVMA now condemns declawing wild and exotic cats
https://www.avma.org/news/javmanews/pages/130115l.aspx‎
*Jan 15, 2013* ... 
_... to revise the Association's position on the matter from opposition to ... Although the AVMA backgrounder 
"Declawing of Domestic Cats" is not ..._

AVMA amends declaw policy to define procedure as '*am**putation*'
AVMA amends declaw policy to define procedure as 'amputation'
*Jul 31, 2014* ... 
_"The decision to declaw a cat should be made by the owners in ... The policy holds fast to the AVMA's 
stance that municipalities should not have ..._

AVMA Adjusts Position on Declaw | Steve Dale's Pet World
AVMA Adjusts Position on Declaw | Steve Dale's Pet World
*Aug 27, 2014* ... 
_Steve Dale writes about the new position of the American Veterinary ... Feline Practitioners notes
the AVMA position on declaw is also ... _

If anyone is too lazy to click a link, here's a copy - 
BOLD is added for emphasis:


> _
> Declawing of Domestic Cats
> 
> The AVMA strongly encourages client education prior to *consideration* of onychectomy (declawing).
> ...


I will ADD that the biggest behavioral difference between de-clawed cats & clawed cats is that those cats
WITHOUT claws will often default to *bite -* as they cannot scratch - & the damage done, especially
the risk of infection from a bite, can be much-more severe to the bitee - who might have been a scratchee,
if the cat had claws with which to scratch. Nonetheless, even cat-scratches are notorious for infections,
& any scratch more than superficial should be assiduously cleaned - multiple scratches or any punctures
should be cleaned by a doctor, not via first-aid at home.

Cat-caused infections can be life-threatening even in healthy adults with good immune systems - that's why
anyone with a chronically compromised immune-system [HIV / AIDS, frequent steroid Rx, & other
immune-suppressive conditions or medications] may be told that declaw would be a good idea, for
the owner's safety.
Severe bleeding-risks are another justifiable reason to consider de-claw, but nylon caps on the claws may
be just as effective without the surgery, & avoid the risk of the cat defaulting to bite.

The tide of popular opinion & feeling against de-claw surgeries turned to condemnation a LONG, long time
before the AVMA condemned it as policy; *not 1 vet in 10 did de-claw surgeries in 1990*, & they weren't
just few on the ground, they demanded grounds for the surgery, & insisted the owner take steps, if the grounds
were merely behavioral.

Please additionally see:
Welfare Implications of Declawing of Domestic Cats (PDF) - the HTML link is posted on the "Declawing" page
of AVMA.org -
https://www.avma.org/KB/Policies/Pages/Declawing-of-Domestic-Cats.aspx

I hope this quashes Ur irrational belief that *millions* of declawed cats live in the USA?...
I haven't even SEEN a de-clawed cat in decades, outside of photos that are decades-old.
.
.


----------



## angethehippy (Jul 8, 2009)

leashedForLife,

You may well be a ViP member of this forum, but from your first response to my first post, you've been nothing short of aggressive towards me!

Why?

I asked an innocent question, and virtually every other reply has been helpful, albeit not necessarily all that I wanted to hear, and I welcomed them.

I don't understand your behaviour, and had been warned by someone NOT to participate in this type of forum; but I will do, as there are (usually) very informative posts/information to be gleaned.

Please don't take it out on me, should you have had a bad day/week/month....

Ange.


----------



## yellowfeenix (Nov 12, 2014)

I would LOVE it if Mia didn't want to go out.

At the moment I take her out for about 20 mins into the garden every morning (on the lead - tried without a lead, but it resulted in a massive chase when she tried to jump over to the neighbour's garden). When it gets dark though, she seems to get itchy feet and just yowls at us looking longingly out the door - really hoping she'll grow out of that. Every time she does it we put her on the naughty step, close the door for 5 mins then let her back in which seems to calm her down a bit.


----------



## angethehippy (Jul 8, 2009)

yellowfeenix said:


> I would LOVE it if Mia didn't want to go out.
> 
> At the moment I take her out for about 20 mins into the garden every morning (on the lead - tried without a lead, but it resulted in a massive chase when she tried to jump over to the neighbour's garden). When it gets dark though, she seems to get itchy feet and just yowls at us looking longingly out the door - really hoping she'll grow out of that. Every time she does it we put her on the naughty step, close the door for 5 mins then let her back in which seems to calm her down a bit.


That's the nocturnal side of them coming out isn't it YF, lol, the moooooon seems to send 'em crazy...


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

angethehippy said:


> leashedForLife,
> 
> *You may well be a ViP member of this forum*, but from your first response to my first post, you've been nothing short of aggressive towards me!
> 
> ...


'VIP' means nothing, Ang, it's an automatic title based on post count  So those of us who have it basically have an award for excessive posting on an internet forum... 

Declawing is a sensitive issue, and the initial question didn't convey that you were against it (as any humane person should be), which may explain some of the reactions. It can be quite important to clarify some of these things, as you have to remember this kind of forum can get a lot of people breezing through who ask a question, don't like the answer they get and react badly, then take it out on the well meaning forum members. Even the most even tempered of us get frustrated from time to time, and that can sometimes mean well intentioned and willing to learn people get unexpected caught in the crossfire. Sorry about that 

And LFL is - well - LFL. An exceptionally passionate 'indoor only' believer for cats, as you will have gathered. It's not worth the getting the thread locked by diverging on to that topic, though! 

Anyway, if your cat is happy indoors, she's happy indoors. Some aren't! Mine both like to go out, but if they don't want to one night, fine by me. The only time I worry is if they are mopey or otherwise upset too.

Summer is coming, which will mean back doors can be left open, and maybe your girl will get up enough confidence to venture out then at her own pace. Please don't force her, though, you'll just make her more nervous, not less.


----------



## angethehippy (Jul 8, 2009)

Jesthar said:


> Declawing is a sensitive issue, and the initial question didn't convey that you were against it (as any humane person should be), which may explain some of the reactions.


Hello, and thank you for your reply - I did actually say *it's an abhorrent practice* or words to that effect, so maybe LfL just didn't read it correctly and waded in, all barrels firing, lol If Manic does decide she wants to explore once it gets warmer, then she WILL NOT be permitted out once dusk falls ... even though her *nocturnal leanings* might have kicked-in, lol


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

angethehippy said:


> Hello, and thank you for your reply - *I did actually say *it's an abhorrent practice* or words to that effect,* so maybe LfL just didn't read it correctly and waded in, all barrels firing, lol If Manic does decide she wants to explore once it gets warmer, then she WILL NOT be permitted out once dusk falls ... even though her *nocturnal leanings* might have kicked-in, lol


Not in the post _first_ mentioned it, though. That can make all the difference 

Cats are actually crepuscular, not nocturnal - twilight is their preferred time as their eyes work better than those of their prey in those light levels.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

angethehippy said:


> leashedForLife,
> ...
> Please don't take it out on me, should you have had a bad day/ week/ month...
> 
> Ange.


I answered very factually, Ange.
I didn't name-call, make rude statements, or otherwise act like an ASBO jerk.

I'm not having a "bad day", "bad week", or "bad month". I am irritated that U seem to assume that many,
many owners, & many, many vets in the USA, whom U labeled _"Unethical"_, are de-clawing cats on a whim.

But i'll get over it - if U're willing to stop claiming that USA cat-owners are ignorant twits who de-claw their
cats as a regular precaution, which was certainly what U seemed to imply.

it's simply not so. And i'm not "taking [anything] out on *you*", but responding directly & frankly
to statements that U've made.

I don't base my statements on personal opinion only, nor on personal experience only -
if i come across any statistics on just how many de-claw surgeries are preformed in the USA,
i'll be happy to post them. I don't know if anyone tracks that data.

meantime, disagreeing isn't disrespectful - it's a difference, nothing more.
.
.


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

L4L, you must live in a different part of the states than I've experienced then. I've been to quite a few places over there and have quite a number of friends, and all say that declawing, while not a given, isn't exactly uncommon either. In fact, I know of a few vets who offer the declaw at the same time as neutering!

I'd wind it in a bit. You're coming on here all guns blazing, and whether you're being factual or not, it's certain that you're being rude. There's no need for it.


----------



## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

carly87 said:


> L4L, you must live in a different part of the states than I've experienced then. I've been to quite a few places over there and have quite a number of friends, and all say that declawing, while not a given, isn't exactly uncommon either. In fact, I know of a few vets who offer the declaw at the same time as neutering!


I was under the same impression.
This thread also implied similar:
http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-health-and-nutrition/389914-first-statewide-ban-declawing-coming.html
Either way I'm pleased to hear we are all in agreement that it's awful


----------



## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Hi OP, sorry got a little off track there 
I agree with the others, no need to force her - I think when the weather warms up a bit she may venture out on her own if the door is left open. If not, her choice. A tray should always be provided either way


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

carly87 said:


> L4L, *you must live in a different part of the States* than I've experienced, then.
> 
> I've been to quite a few places over there & have quite a number of friends, and all say that declawing,
> while not a given, isn't exactly uncommon, either.
> ...


I grew up in Bucks Co, PA, with lots of Philadelphia relatives - many with cats, indoor cats.
All had the claws they were born with.
I went to college at Penn State in Centre Co, PA, & worked in the area, after -
moved to the 7-Cities area of tidewater VA in 1998, lived there till 2012, moved to Massachusetts.

I haven't seen "many" declawed cats since my childhood - over 45-years ago. :huh:
Even then, they weren't common.

And i've NEVER seen any vet advertise _*'declaw with desexing!'*_ - ever, anywhere.
Can U offer a link?
Can U name those vets?

As for the original Q, i haven't changed my mind - cats who stay at home are safer, cats who stay indoors
are safest, & free-roaming cats are a community hassle, & make a bad impression on non-cat-owners.

Va Beach has a city ordinance that bans roaming cats:
I live-trapped 11 cats while living in Va Beach, VA; all but one were euthanized, at least 5 were feral,
& the abandoned pets were not sought by their "loving" owners.
The one that survived was my $300 investment - I put myself down as 1st dibs, had her examined, chipped,
vaxed, boarded, spayed, & gave her up to a rescue - that found a home for her.

I was listed as the 1st contact on her chip - she was never picked up stray, so presumably she lived
as an indoor pet.
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Declawing in Boston, MA - Veterinarians.com
Page Not Found - Veterinarians.com

Massachusetts Declawing Surgery & Laser Declaw Procedure - MA
Declawing in &, MA

Boston Pet Surgery ...
Boston Pet Surgery, Boston Spay, Boston Neuter, Boston Cat Declawing, Boston Veterinary Surgeon , Boston Animal Hospital

Declawing Cats - Boston News, Weather, Sports | FOX 25 
Declawing Cats - Boston News, Weather, Sports | FOX 25 | MyFoxBoston

Mass. SPCA is the largest animal-welfare group in the state:
Declawing Cats: Making a Humane Decision

A national list of vets who *don't* de-claw:
http://www.declaw.com/veterinarians-who-do-not-declaw/list-of-veterinarians

Be aware that this list is opt-IN & not exhaustive - many individual vets in multi-vet practices,
or multi-vet hospitals, will not declaw without a pressing, usually medical, reason. Just, _"I won't keep
my cat if s/he isn't de-clawed!"_, isn't gonna do. Many cheerfully offer to re-home that pet - just as they do
with dogs who have some unaddressed behavioral issue, or who are being neglected, etc.

Last but not least: Angell Memorial weighs in:
https://www.care.com/a/cat-care-to-declaw-or-not-to-declaw-05201424

Anglell Memorial Animal Medical Hospital enjoys national prestige, & is a leader in many ways -
from vet-care & surgery, to husbandry standards.
QUOTE


> _
> 
> Care.com:
> 'Is there any situation when you would judge it necessary to declaw a cat?
> ...


.
.


----------



## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Unfortunately declawing is very much alive and well in the USA, and yes indeed vets do advertise spay/neuter/declaw packages. Vets will defend their decalwing "rights" vehemently, and become quite abusive when they are challenged, and they lie and lie and lie to justify their actions.

I am currently involved in a debate with one of those vets. He is disgusting. he is PROUD of a four paw declaw he did recently because a kid that was sick with cancer "loves cats" and can't risk a scratch. Of course once that cat starts biting, that will be the end of that.

All his arguments are so pat, you can tell they are the words he uses to clients to push declawing. And most of what he says are half truths or out and out lies. The man makes me sick to my stomach. But he is the norm, rather than the exception, so far.

Someday it won't be like that, the education is spreading and children are even doing their school reports on the evils of decalwing. Soon that generation will be the vets and pet owners, and hopefully by then this evil will be eliminated every where. (Canada and the USA are the only civilized countries left that allow it)


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

L4L - here are a few of the many articles on the internet which talk of declawing in the USA being not uncommon:

Do You Declaw? | petMD

The Wikipedia entry states declawing of cats in the USA is "common"

Onychectomy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article mentions the "package deals" offered i.e. declawing available whilst the cat is being spayed.

Declawing Vets Are Everywhere In The U.S. | PoC

From time to time we have had new members posting from USA who are considering having their cat declawed because the cat is scratching furniture/carpets. They seem genuinely surprised, (even shocked), when they are met with a torrent of disapproval, and can become quite defensive.

The impression I have gotten from all this is that declawing has been taken for granted in many parts of the USA, a least until quite recently, and that there are plenty of vets still happy to carry out the barbaric procedure.

EDIT: cross-posted with lorilu


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

- Anyone can say anything in a Wiki article.
They aren't regarded as highly as, say, a peer-reviewed journal article.

- "not *un*common" means whatever it is, isn't rare.
It doesn't mean it IS common - whatever that might be. Both are vague.

- If declaw surgery is so bl**dy common, why haven't i even seen a declawed cat since at least 1985?...
It's not because i don't know any cat-owners.  Where do they hide these thousands or millions
of declawed cats? - they certainly aren't apparent, here in Mass., nor when i lived in VA, nor in Pennsy.

- I'm *not* one of the ppl declawing cats.
Nor am i one of the many-more ppl in the USA who use choke-chains, infinite-slip nylon tubing collars,
prong collars, shock collars, scat-mats, thrown chains, penny cans, water balloons, et al.
Why don't U assault me on those grounds, too?... maybe U can hold me responsible for all the sins
committed by any American ever born.

perhaps i should hold each of U personally responsible for profiteering English investors who took black ppl
from Africa, sold them into slavery in the Carib, & made fortunes selling the rum their slaves manufactured
in the USA, & Europe.
That's at least as logical as blaming me for declawed cats - particularly as i sincerely doubt the sources
& the rabble-rousing articles that claim it's either 'not *un*common' [damned by faint praise, anyone?...]
or supposedly "common".

U can't prove it by me; i haven't seen any declawed cats, my vets in VA wouldn't do it except in very rare
cases, & most vets here [in Mass.] strongly counsel against it as a 'routine' procedure.

And again - i've never heard of a vet offering to declaw when they neuter a cat, period. Anywhere -
at least, anywhere I've lived in the USA, & not from any of my fellow trainers or various rescues, either.
U'd think if it was so shockingly common, somebody would have mentioned it to me. :huh:

So far, only one nameless & location-free vet has been referred to - & if s/he does declaws as routine
procedures on request, & U KNOW this person does that, then s/he can be reported to the AVMA - 
as they're in violation of the national standards. Or they can be reported to the state-vet's office
of the state where s/he has their practice - same reason.
Without a location or a name, nobody can do anything but b*tch on-line & make vague claims.
if U want to stop the practice, file a complaint. Don't just argue with some faceless entity on-line.

The OP is personally responsible for whether her cat roams at large, stays on her own property,
or stays in her house. I'm not personally responsible for the actions of every pet-owning American. :skep:
.
.
.


----------



## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

> U KNOW this person does that, then s/he can be reported to the AVMA -
> as they're in violation of the national standards. Or they can be reported to the state-vet's office
> of the state where s/he has their practice - same reason.
> Without a location or a name, nobody can do anything but b*tch on-line & make vague claims.
> if U want to stop the practice, file a complaint. Don't just argue with some faceless entity on-line.


Decalwing of cats is legal in the USA everywhere except 8 cities in California, so far. There is nothing to report, vets are legally allowed to do this elective surgery on any cat, or dog, (yes some dogs have been done too) for which someone is willing to fork over the money.

The AVMA and state by state veterinary associations can make the claim that they advise declawing to only be used in "extreme circumstances after all other avenues have been explored", but those circumstances are left up to each vet.

Many vets over the past few years have been harassed by anti-declaw advocates for their advertising of "spay/neuter/declaw" packages, for having "Declaws" actually painted on their window (though that might have been Canada), for offering "Free Declaws" if the client agrees to let the cat participate in a trial of a new pain medication.

This is all going on L4L, and the more pressure we put on this kind of practice, the harder they push back. Bottom line is, declawing is big big bucks, and declawing vets don't want to lose that lovely cash flow.

If you want to know the real horrors, join The Paw Project's facebook group, and Veterinary Workers Against Declawing facebook group, among many others. You soon will have your eyes opened about how common this procedure still is.

And the nasty way declaw advocates fight back.

OP sorry for the thread drift.

Back on topic, please don't force your cat to go outside if she doesn't want to go out. Give her a litter box, keep it clean, and that's the end of it.


----------



## angethehippy (Jul 8, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> -
> 
> perhaps i should hold each of U personally responsible for profiteering English investors who took black ppl
> from Africa, sold them into slavery in the Carib, & made fortunes selling the rum their slaves manufactured
> ...


Now come along LfL, this is NOT necessary. You are digressing from the subject under discussion, and should know better. If you wish to continue along these lines, I'm sure there is plenty to talk about with regards to profiteering, torture etc etc... but I expect the majority of contributors on here are intelligent enough NOT to take the bait from your statement, so kindly STOP IT.


----------



## angethehippy (Jul 8, 2009)

Well I've decided that the kindest thing regarding manic milly is to let her be... once the weather improves and we leave the door open or are in the rear garden or patio, I should think she's gonna want to be with us out there ... the litter box isn't that huge a deal, I'll find somewhere else for it to live in the house. Thank you for your advice on this, as I type manic is climbing the curtains. . . . 

Ange


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

angethehippy said:


> Now come along LfL, this is NOT necessary.
> *You are digressing from the subject* under discussion, and should know better.
> If you wish to continue along these lines, I'm sure there is plenty to talk about re profiteering,
> torture, etc, etc... but I expect the majority of contributors on here are intelligent enough
> NOT to take the bait from your statement, so kindly STOP IT.


Ange,
why is it that when U actually diverted the thread, & i make an analogy about trying to guilt ppl,
it's supposedly my fault that the thread was diverted?...

U asked me if I declawed my cats - as if every cat-owner in the USA
automatically nips off the ends of every digit. The answer is no.

Moreover, i don't know any cat-owner among those i've met in the past 30-years who has.
And there's an end to it - trying to tar me with some ridiculous accusation is pointless.

Aside from desex, all my cats AND dogs AND birds AND herps AND horses AND other animals
have lived - & died - with all their parts: our sheep weren't even docked.

The only body-parts ever removed or operated on, other than gonads, were faulty -
such as when my Akita had GDV. No animal in my care ever had any cosmetic or unnecessary surgery.

Meanwhile, buy a good-quality clumping litter - such as World's Best - keep the box scrupulously clean,
scoop at least twice daily, don't use Phenols to clean the litterbox, & let Ur cat get comfy in her new home.
If she doesn't want to go out, thank Ur lucky stars - YOU won't be one of the members posting these:

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-chat/393478-come-home-jasmine-all-forgiven.html

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-chat/393629-hunting-upset-tummy.html

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-health-and-nutrition/393536-pooh-injured.html
.
.


----------



## Guest (Mar 5, 2015)

I'm in the US, where I am declawing is not at all common, in fact I don't know any declawed cats among all my numerous pet owning friends and acquaintances. Plus most cats go outside and even declaw proponents know not to declaw outside cats. My own vet refuses to do the procedure at all, and is listed on a large and growing national database of vets who won't declaw for any reason.


----------



## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

ouesi said:


> I'm in the US, where I am declawing is not at all common, in fact I don't know any declawed cats among all my numerous pet owning friends and acquaintances. Plus most cats go outside and *even declaw proponents know not to declaw outside cats. * My own vet refuses to do the procedure at all, and is listed on a large and growing national database of vets who won't declaw for any reason.


Unfortunately that is not really true. Many people who declaw have a very poor attitude about the cat to begin with and think nothing of letting the cat out, or worse, throwing the cat out permanently (and usually far away from home) when the behavior problems start, due to the constant pain.

Those of you in the USA who think declawing is not common are, I'm sorry to say, just a bit sheltered about the issue. It is all too common, and we are working hard at educating people. But it is slow going.

But this thread really isn't about declawing.

THIS thread is  :

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-health-and-nutrition/389914-first-statewide-ban-declawing-coming.html


----------



## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

angethehippy said:


> Now come along LfL, this is NOT necessary. You are digressing from the subject under discussion, and should know better. If you wish to continue along these lines, I'm sure there is plenty to talk about with regards to profiteering, torture etc etc... but I expect the majority of contributors on here are intelligent enough NOT to take the bait from your statement, so kindly STOP IT.


And this is why the ignore button is so helpful 

I agree with others, give manic Millie some time to find her feet, she will either like it or she won't - you know how cantankerous cats can be!

Can't recall seeing any pics though..... you _do_ know that is a requirement to post her_ dont_ you?.......


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> *I'm in the US - where I am* [Florida?, i think?], *declawing is not at all common, in fact I don't know any declawed cats
> among all my numerous pet-owning friends & acquaintances.* Plus most cats go outside and even declaw proponents
> know not to declaw outside cats.
> 
> ...


See?... I'm currently in Mass.; i've lived in 3 states, mid-Atlantic, southern, & now, New England.
It's not just that i _only know ppl who are somehow odd, & weirdly don't declaw_ - MOST cat-owners,
at least since the 1980s, don't de-claw. I'm sure it gets a lot of attn from 'Net columnists & bloggers, but if it
were so amazingly common, why aren't we hearing about them, meeting de-clawed cats, or seeing them
come into shelters or rescues?... HUNDREDS of cats came into VB & Norfolk in my decade there, as well as in
Chesapeake Hum Soc, & i never saw or heard of *one* declawed cat - not an owner-surrender, not a stray.

I'm not sure about a "never de-claw" rule, only because as a PCA & as a masseuse, i've worked with folks
who had serious medical issues that can cause Drs [human medicos, not vets] to recommend de-clawing.
HIV / AIDS, severe auto-immune problems, high-dose anticoagulants, etc, are very dangerous in themselves,
& while many patients refuse to de-claw their cats, a small number will give their cats up - not the patient's choice,
but often the family's choice, & i find that very difficult to live with. :nonod:

That said, if the patient is willing to live with the risk, i'm certainly not about to tell them otherwise -
it's their life, & their pet, too.

Also, as Dr M of Angell Mem-Hospital said, some cats have interdigital claws that are nonfunctional & they can be
very problematic - while that's rare, the surgery is for the CAT's benefit, & no-one else's. And i'd hope a really
good feline vet would be willing to do that surgery, rather than adhere to a purist rule & refuse. Rules are good -
but not all rules can be rigid.
.
.


----------



## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Both of you are incredibly naive about the number of cats declawed in the USA, the number of vets who do it, and the number of declawed cats dumped outside, dumped in shelters or simply abandoned.

Human condition is not a reason for a declaw. If you are at risk, because a cat might scratch you, a cat bite will be an even further risk, and declawed cats are much more prone to biting (and one of the reasons they are dumped)

If you cannot risk claws, do not have a cat.

Anti-declaw bills generally state declawing will be against the law, with the exception of when it is medically necessary _for the cat_.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lorilu said:


> *Both of you are incredibly naive about the number of cats declawed in the USA*, the number of vets
> who [perform declaw surgeries], & *the number of declawed cats dumped outside, dumped in shelters,
> or simply abandoned.*


If declawed cats are so incredibly common in the USA - what *rocks* are ppl hiding them under?

Why is it that with over 10-years helping in Norfolk's SPCA, VB ACC, drop-ins at Ches Humane, & pro-bono
for PACC, i never encountered or even heard of one declawed cat - as an owner surrender, nor as a stray?

If whatever percentage are supposedly declawed, then they should be surrendered, be awaiting adoption
in shelters, be picked up as strays, show up in fed colonies, etc.


lorilu said:


> Human condition is not a reason for a declaw. If you are at risk, because a cat might scratch you, a cat bite
> will be an even further risk, and declawed cats are much more prone to biting (and one of the reasons
> they are dumped).
> 
> ...


...and what if U already have a cat? What then?
I'm sure that U'd be sympathetic & oozing the milk of human kindness for some
stranger who's just had their life changed forever by a frightening diagnosis or a stroke,
thrombosis, etc, & tell them that U'd be honored to take in their cat?...

What if they just want to keep their loved pets? It might be one of the few things they
do get some choice over - medical crises can be amazingly narrow when it comes to any
freedom of choice for patients. Where U live, with whom, what U can or can't do, are often
decisions made by other ppl.

I've known quite a few cat-owners who kept their kitties despite the Dr's dire warnings,
& didn't declaw them, either. But i'm not about to tell them they must GET RID OF their cats.
And i'm not about to condemn someone who wants to keep their cat, either - nor will i
think they're monsters, if they declaw their cat on medical advice.

I was very upset when my neighbor insisted that her husband get rid of their 2 cats, as she
was paranoid about the possibility of Toxo - if she'd demanded hubby clean the litterbox thru
her entire pregnancy, that would have been fine with me.
I have much-more sympathy for the owner who wants to keep their pet, than i do for those
who'd re-home them via an ad, or take them to the municipal shelter & hand them in.
.
.


----------



## buffie (May 31, 2010)

As far as the number of cats declawed/vets willing to declaw in the states I couldn't possibly comment but when it comes down to declawing for the medical benefit of a human I would hope ,as that human,I would be able to put the needs of my cat first.
I don't think I could justify amputating part of its toes just to allow me to keep it.


----------



## Guest (Mar 6, 2015)

lorilu said:


> Both of you are incredibly naive about the number of cats declawed in the USA, the number of vets who do it, and the number of declawed cats dumped outside, dumped in shelters or simply abandoned.
> 
> Human condition is not a reason for a declaw. If you are at risk, because a cat might scratch you, a cat bite will be an even further risk, and declawed cats are much more prone to biting (and one of the reasons they are dumped)
> 
> ...


I agree that unless we're talking about an injured claw that needs removal, there is no need for declawing, and certainly not for human issues.

However, please don't presume to know what I am and am not aware of.

The truth is, declawing has been on the decline for years, and has seen a huge decline in the last 10, 15 years, something that any vet will tell you. Are there vets who still perform declaws? Sure. But there are far more who try and talk clients out of them, or simply don't for any reason.

Education is working. Vets have posters up in their waiting rooms that spells out exactly what declawing is, pet supply stores do the same. The word is getting out, and fewer people are declawing. I'm happy for that number to continue to decline. But really, there are not these oodles of declawed cats running around in the US. I haven't seen a declawed cat in over 20 years.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

PetFinder is the largest single adoption site - currently, over 280,000 pets listed by over 12,500 adoption groups.

I entered Boston & cat: 116,182 cats near Boston.
Ticking 'declawed' took it down to 3,566. That's 3%, if my math is correct.

Bringing the cats within 500-miles of Boston: 3,566.
Declawed cats within 500-miles: 770, or 2.2%. [again, do check my math.]

I entered a number of cities & towns in the USA, plus 2 in Canada.
The *highest percentage of declawed cats* i found?... *6.3%.*
That was an outlier; the average is 3%, meaning 97% of cats have all their claws.
Yup - declawing must be rampant. 

Northeastern USA is densely-developed, & S/N is very popular. Ppl SPEND on pets here: vet-care, dog parks,
cushy beds, good food, hip or knee surgery, etc.
Generally speaking, the middle of the country, Deep South, & western high plains spend the least on pets -
S / N, heartworm prevention, rabies vax [mandatory, but even in cities, ppl blow it off down South], etc,
are all ignored. Heartworm-positive young dogs of 2 or 3 with severe infestations are common in VA,
& even more so in GA, rural Fla, Miss., N Mex, rural Texas, etc.

To check for geographical differences:
alphabetical by state, & within states for city / town - the 2 lowest %, & 2 highest %, in *bold*.

*L-A, Calif [major-Met, west coast city]
w/i 500-mi: 14,500 -------- declawed: 226 ------------- 1.5%*

*San Fran, Calif [major-Met, northwest coast]
w/i 500-mi: 12,104 ---------- declawed: 154 ---------- 1.2%*

Denver, CO [western, inland, city]
w/i 500-mi: 10,771 ----------- declawed: 408 -------- *3.7%*

Louisville, KY: [southern city, inland]
w/i 500-mi: 52,265 ------- declawed: 2,187 ----------- *4%*

N'Awlins: [southern port]
w/i 500-mi: 20,909 -------- declawed: 441 ------------ *2.1%*

Detroit, MI [inland, east / west, Rust Belt]
w/i 500-mi: 58,213 ---------- declawed: 2,137 -------- *3.6%*

*St Louis, MO [inland port; city]
w/i 500-mi: 42,728 --------- declawed: 1,996 --------- 4.6%*

Asheville, NC [southern, small town]
w/i 500-mi: 58,192 ------- declawed: 1,856 ---------- *3%*

*Bismarck, ND [western, high plains, town]
w/i 500-mi: 8,414 --------- declawed: 531 ----------- 6.3%*

Cherry Hill, NJ [eastern, upper-middle class, suburb]
w/i 500-mi: 48,137 --------- declawed: 1,229 --------- *2.5%*

Albuquerque, NM [southwest, high plains, inland]
w/i 500-mi: 7,812 ---------- declawed: 215 ----------- *2.7%*

NYC, NY [major metropolis; east coast port]
w/i 500 miles: 43,027 ------- declawed: 1,055 -------- *2.4%*

Cincinnati, OH [eastern, inland, city]
w/i 500-mi: 55, 282 ----------- declawed: 2,237 --------- *4%*

Zanesville, OH [eastern, inland, rural]
w/i 500-mi: 64,356 ------------ declawed: 2,194 ----- *3.4%*

Bartlesville, OK [western, inland, rural]
w/i 500-mi: 25,788 ------------ declawed: 1,074 ---------- *4%*

Bellefonte, PA [eastern, inland, rural]
w/i 500-mi: 55,494 -------- declawed: 1,693 ----------- *3%*

Doylestown, PA [eastern, suburb]
w/i 500-mi: 48,827 -------- declawed: 1,281 ------------- *2.6%*

Kintnersville, PA [eastern, rural]
w/i 500-mi: 49,134 -------- declawed: 1,311 ------------ *2.6%*

Philthy [Phila., PA - east coast port]
w/i 500-mi: 48,921 -------- declawed: 1,285 ------------ *2.6%*

Pittsburgh, PA [eastern, inland, city]
w/i 500-mi: 62,982 -------- declawed: 2,004 ------------- *3%*

Dallas, TX [southwest, city]
w/i 500-mi: 16,400 -------- declawed: 499 --------------- *3%*

Seattle, WA [west coast port]
w/i 500-mi: 4,776 --------- declawed: 127 -------------- *2.6%*

*Canada*
Montreal, QC [A1A 2B2] eastern, city
w/i 500-mi: 35,558 -------- declawed: 942 ------------- *2.6%*

Vancouver, BC [V6B 4N6] - western, port
w/i 500-mi: 4,051 -------- declawed: 108 -------------- *2.6%*

U'd think Manhattan would be a hotspot for declawing - given density & indoor-only cats - but it's not.

Feel free to enter other cities & towns - I've done my bit, i think. 
.
.


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Given as percentages I agree it doesn't sound as though the practice is rife. 
But when the actual numbers you've quoted are added up it's over 27,000 cats! 
That sounds shocking to me, and I didn't expect anything like that number! 

We are looking at 27,000 cats who have been cruelly abused by the barbaric procedure, forced to live a life in constant pain, with the potential for permanent damage to their spines because of the way they adapt to walking post-declawing. 

If similar levels of pain, suffering and permanent harm were being caused to 27,000 cats by cat owners themselves, instead of vets sanctioned by the state, imagine the public reaction!!


----------



## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

When you look at those figures, percentage wise it doesn't sound a lot - but as CM says it's still a huge amount of cats 
Also I'm guessing that number can likely be at least doubled by the amount of declawed cats probably not on record? :sad:


----------



## Guest (Mar 6, 2015)

27000 is certainly 27000 too many, agreed. But the point is, considering this is a country of and estimated 74-96 million cats, we're not looking at a "common" procedure as originally argued.


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

angethehippy said:


> Morning readers, this is the problem:
> 
> We moved home on 21 January and kept the 2 cats, Tia, elderly and not really ours, we're fostering her long term, and will go out IF taken out - but we've seen her using the garden as a toilet. OK, can put up with that, we back onto open fields and I can see her venturing out soon. Manic Milly is a different kettle of fish! In the old home, I had problems keeping her in - she was always escaping! NOT the case here... she's terrified. There are other cats about, and the previous house owners had 3 of them. Milly though, as soon as I take her out, she's back indoors again. Getting a bit desperate now, the litter box is becoming expensive (NOT kitten sized gifts being left. . . ) and she should be going out.
> 
> ...


She's scared. New place, new surroundings and if you are fostering I take it you are not her first or only home. Poor cat is terrified she will go out there and never see you again. How much does cat litter cost for heaven's sake? You should not force her outside if she doesn't want to go, and the more you try, the more agitated and scared she will become. Leave her alone and let her take her own time. Eventually, she will go out and if she doesn't, why does it matter?


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

angethehippy said:


> Thanks leashedForLife, your post did give me a laugh. . . . found it a little accusing which I'm sure you didn't mean to. . Have you had your cats de-clawed?


Sorry, I can't see the connection. What has declawing got to do with anything?


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

buffie said:


> Sorry thought you meant you were trying to do without trays entirely  ,but it may be that you will just have to "bite the bullet" and have a tray 24/7 if that is what your cats want.
> All mine have been indoor/access to cat run only apart from one,a semi-feral who eventually lived in the house but he soon learned that it was a much better bet to come in to use the tray and go back out again,and that was after years of living outdoors as an unneutered tom


I've had a lot of cats, all of whom came and went as they pleased indoor and out, and the only time I have had litter trays was when they were very young kittens and when one of them was old and ill and stopped going outside. Why do you have to have litter trays? I couldn't have one about with the dogs; they would eat it.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

chillminx said:


> Given as percentages, I agree - it doesn't sound as though the practice is rife.


thanks for that much. 
I get the distinct impression that, now that the _*"massive numbers of cats are declawed every year!"*_ story
is dead, it won't really matter - if just ONE cat in the entire USA were declawed, someone would wring
their hands & moan in agony.

Don't forget the far-greater number of dogs who are 'trained' / handled with aversive tools or coercive methods
every day of the year, all over the USA - in part due to the good offices of Mr Toothy & his minions at Natl Geo. :thumbdown:

And the dogs with cropped ears, docked tails, etc, or whose ears are painfully plucked to groom them
for the ring, or for appearance' sake only.
Or the gaited horses who are 'sored' to make them carry their tails high, or who wear weighted boots to make
them alter their gait, or have their hooves strangely & painfully trimmed - there are many, many instances
of inhumane treatment that aren't "one time events".

Please don't tell me every cat ever declawed suffers agony every day - that's not true, & falsifying data does not
win friends or influence ppl - instead, it makes U untrustworthy & Ur statements suspect.


chillminx said:


> ...
> But when [you total the] actual numbers, it's over 27,000 cats!
> That sounds shocking to me, & I didn't expect anything like that number!
> ...


Actually, it totals *27,190 cats who are declawed* & available to adopt,
vs *848,641 cats who HAVE their claws*, & are available to adopt -
or *3.2% of the total are declawed in those 24 cities.*

How many cats are owned in the UK - among all member-nations?

2012 stats for USA cat-ownership are found here:

https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/Statistics/Pages/Market-research-statistics-US-pet-ownership.aspx

Basically, there are 75-M owned pet-cats in the USA, in approx 36-M, 120-K households.
3% of 75-M = 2-M, 250-K cats.

For contrast, the most-recent stats i found for the UK are here:

Pet Population 2013 - PFMA

2013, UK pet-cats totaled 8.5-M, in just 19% of households [13-M].

In 2013 in the UK, only 45% of households had at least 1 pet, any species.
In the USA, we surpassed 65% of households in 2007. The economic meltdown meant many pets
were surrendered or rehomed in 2008 & '09, but pet-ownership never dropped below 50%, & is now
at least 60% of households.

*there are over 70-M dogs in the USA.* Numbers are enormous; the percentage of cats who are
actually declawed ranges from a low of 1% to a high of 4%, with an average of 3%.

that's certainly much, much lower than was implied by the vague claim of "common" bandied about.

Are U disappointed that I actually found some hard data? Would U prefer to continue to believe that half
or so of all pet cats in the USA are declawed by the time they're 5-MO?... One is so much more dramatic
& appealing than the other. 
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Sorry, I can't see the connection.
> What has declawing got to do with anything?


I suspect - tho i cannot know, i'm guessing - that the OP thinks anyone who keeps indoor cats MUST
cut off their digits - or praps thinks that all 'USA-cat-owners' are inclined to declaw by default.

Neither is true, BTW. :thumbsup:
.
.


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> I suspect - tho i cannot know, i'm guessing - that the OP thinks anyone who keeps indoor cats MUST
> cut off their digits - or praps thinks that all 'USA-cat-owners' are inclined to declaw by default.
> 
> Neither is true, BTW. :thumbsup:
> ...


I take it then they want their cats to go out so they don't claw the furniture? I couldn't give a flying wotsit about the furniture, but I do wish she wouldn't dig her damn claws into my legs when she sits on my lap! My cat is given to attacking for no apparent reason. I could be stroking her and suddenly find claws embedded in my arm; strange animal.:eek6:


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> 27000 is certainly 27000 too many, agreed.
> 
> But the point is, considering this is a country of an estimated 74 - 96 million cats, we're not looking at
> a "common" procedure, as originally argued.


Precisely - i'd be thrilled if 1% or fewer of all cats were ever declawed, but remember how many OWNED
pet cats there are, across the entire USA.

There are also an estimated *additional* 30 to 50-M UN-owned feral cats in the USA, & i will bluntly state
that i'm not a supporter of T-N-R / Trap - Neuter - Return. It may stop some breeding, but it doesn't address the
enormous impact on wildlife, year in & year out, & there are always intact recruits annually.
Feral cats DO have all their claws - no one is declawing cats with no owner to foot the bill.

Miami Combats Growing Feral Cat Population | Here & Now
Miami Combats Growing Feral Cat Population | Here & Now

Miami alone is home to an estimated 300-K feral cats - & they're not alone.
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> I take it then *they* want their cats to go out so they don't claw the furniture?


Pronoun trouble. :lol: which one is 'they'?... the OP, the cat-owners of the USA?... Who?

the OP just wants her cat to GO OUT so she doesn't have to provide a litter-box. :thumbdown:
If i lived near her, i'd be happy to return Kitty's "presents".


newfiesmum said:


> I couldn't give a flying wotsit about the furniture, but I do wish she wouldn't dig her damn claws into my legs
> when she sits on my lap! - *My cat is given to attacking for no apparent reason.* I could be stroking her
> & suddenly find claws embedded in my arm; strange animal. :eek6:


Sounds like she's got a low threshold for stimulation - usually that's male cats, but sometimes Fs are
also "1 stroke" or "2 stroke" cats.
.
.


----------



## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> I take it then they want their cats to go out so they don't claw the furniture? I couldn't give a flying wotsit about the furniture, but I do wish she wouldn't dig her damn claws into my legs when she sits on my lap! My cat is given to attacking for no apparent reason. I could be stroking her and suddenly find claws embedded in my arm; strange animal.:eek6:


If you read the whole thread the OP has stated her cats do not claw the furniture and the OP is against declawing 
I'm surprised that a thread about a cat unwilling to go out has turned into this. Although a very valid debate not appropriate here


----------



## buffie (May 31, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> I've had a lot of cats, all of whom came and went as they pleased indoor and out, and the only time I have had litter trays was when they were very young kittens and when one of them was old and ill and stopped going outside. *Why do you have to have litter trays*? I couldn't have one about with the dogs; they would eat it.


Can I turn that question around and ask why you think it is okay not to provide one .
Apart from the ability to keep a check on your cats health via the litter tray
,the fact that by not providing one you force your cat to go outdoors in all weathers which if they are feeling unwell cant be pleasant.Then there is the "sh*tting in neighbours gardens to consider which understandably can be a problem to folks who don't appreciate having to clear up after someone elses pets.
As for the dogs I have had dogs and litter trays and never had a problem,if you find the dogs wont leave them alone, fit a cat flap in a cupboard door or similar with the litter tray safely behind ,it job done


----------



## Guest (Mar 6, 2015)

:lol: :lol:

From declawing, we now move on to the great litter tray debate  

This thread has no hope of staying on topic.


----------



## angethehippy (Jul 8, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> I suspect - tho i cannot know, i'm guessing - that the OP thinks anyone who keeps indoor cats MUST
> cut off their digits - or praps thinks that all 'USA-cat-owners' are inclined to declaw by default.
> 
> Neither is true, BTW. :thumbsup:
> ...


 Oh be quiet now LfL ... you're sounding a bit like a cracked record. . . :laugh:


----------



## angethehippy (Jul 8, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> Pronoun trouble. :lol: which one is 'they'?... the OP, the cat-owners of the USA?... Who?
> 
> the OP just wants her cat to GO OUT so she doesn't have to provide a litter-box. :thumbdown:
> If i lived near her, i'd be happy to return Kitty's "presents".
> ...


NO, LfL, you are WRONG .. *I DID NOT SAY* I didn't want to provide a litter tray. GET IT RIGHT, woman.

You seem soooo interested in producing these lengthy explanations, proof, links etc etc, that I DON'T THINK you're reading the posts correctly for crikey sake!! You come across as a highly belligerent person, with nought better to do than *take over* !!!

*GIVE IT A REST* why don't ya???

Ange


----------



## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Actually Ange - to me it looks like you were the one that brought declawing in to it by - out of nowhere -asking if L4L had declawed cats. And now have successfully distracted the thread from your unwilllingness to provide a tray and also to force your cat outside.


----------



## angethehippy (Jul 8, 2009)

Jonescat said:


> Actually Ange - to me it looks like you were the one that brought declawing in to it by - out of nowhere -asking if L4L had declawed cats. And now have successfully distracted the thread from your unwilllingness to provide a tray and also to force your cat outside.


Jonescat.

Yes, I DID mention the word *de-clawing*

Do you know why? Because I'd asked a fairly innocent question, received some helpful answers, then LfL waded in, as already stated, all guns blazing, and the REASON I mentioned de-clawing was to diffuse the situation, and perhaps calm the person down. cos I just had that feelin' she was gonna come back. Call me psychic...

Well, it clearly DIDN'T work, indeed seemed to inflame the situation, didn't it. . .

I'm NOT forcing my cat(s) outside, infact todays weather was a little warmer than of late, and the back door was left open. Tia (elderly cat) went out onto the back lawn, was out about 8 minutes then returned. Milly watched, walked just outside the door then returned indoors.

I'm also NOT unwilling to provide the litterbox, I just think it more natural that they should go out and explore more.

It's regretful that not all cat owners feel exactly the same about these things, but then ... that's humans for you!!


----------



## Guest (Mar 6, 2015)

Okay, now I'm genuinely intrigued...

How did you think asking L4L if she has had her cats de-clawed was going to diffuse anything?


----------



## buffie (May 31, 2010)

angethehippy said:


> Morning readers, this is the problem:
> 
> We moved home on 21 January and kept the 2 cats, Tia, elderly and not really ours, we're fostering her long term, and will go out IF taken out - but we've seen her using the garden as a toilet. OK, can put up with that, we back onto open fields and I can see her venturing out soon. Manic Milly is a different kettle of fish! In the old home, I had problems keeping her in - she was always escaping! NOT the case here... she's terrified. There are other cats about, and the previous house owners had 3 of them. Milly though, as soon as I take her out, she's back indoors again. *Getting a bit desperate now, the litter box is becoming expensive (NOT kitten sized gifts being left. . . ) and she should be going out.*
> HELP, I'll welcome all suggestions..
> ...





ouesi said:


> :lol: :lol:
> 
> From declawing, *we now move on to the great litter tray debate *
> 
> This thread has no hope of staying on topic.


Really  I actually thought the original debate was about whether the op's cats went out rather than used a litter tray


----------



## Guest (Mar 6, 2015)

buffie said:


> Really  I actually thought the original debate was about whether the op's cats went out rather than used a litter tray


Oh geez... how could I forget the indoor outdoor cat debate!


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

angethehippy said:


> NO, LfL, you are WRONG ..
> *I DID NOT SAY* I didn't want to provide a litter tray. GET IT RIGHT, woman.
> ...


U're absolutely right! Sorry, U will provide a litter-box *at night*, but otherwise, want Ur cats
to void outside... Would it be correct to say U'd prefer they stool in someone else's garden?

Or are U perfectly happy to have them plant poop under Ur own shrubs, & dig-up Ur own flower-beds
to bury their sh!t there?
.
.


----------



## buffie (May 31, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Oh geez... how could I forget the indoor outdoor cat debate!


 Still don't get where you are coming from,the OP's thread is quite clearly asking how they can persuade their cats to toilet out doors rather than use a litter tray.Indoor/outdoor has never been mentioned


----------



## Guest (Mar 6, 2015)

buffie said:


> Still don't get where you are coming from,the OP's thread is quite clearly asking how they can persuade their cats to toilet out doors rather than use a litter tray.Indoor/outdoor has never been mentioned


I'm just laughing at how many contentious topics can make it in to one thread, that's all


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

buffie said:


> Still don't get where you are coming from, the OP's thread is quite clearly asking
> *how to persuade their cats to toilet outdoors*, rather than use a litter tray.
> 
> *Indoor / outdoor has never been mentioned.*


:lol: Buffie,
it would be very, very difficult to persuade a cat to toilet out of doors without EXITING thru the door -
would it not?

I've an image in my head now, of Milly on one window-sill & Tia on another, trying to squat & balance
with their tails waving & jerking as counterweights outside, & all 4 paws inside, while they endeavor
to void onto the landscaping below - I don't think Tia can manage this feat. 
At the very minimum, she'd need a seat-belt for her safety, lest she pitch out the window & fall.

If that's the alternative, i think a litter tray is safer for all concerned - & would create less gossip among
the neighbors, too.  Altho they might enjoy the show, or start a betting pool.
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> I'm just laughing at how many contentious topics can make it in to one thread, that's all.


Let's see - we could discuss political gerrymandering & redrawing polling districts, legal abortions,
the death penalty for criminals - is it a deterrent, or merely state-sanctioned murder; should we wipe-out
competing predators, or should we re-wild the prairie & reintroduce bison in place of cattle; & how about
_"nuclear power as a green option"_?
.
.
.
.
That should keep us busy for a while. :laugh:
.
.


----------



## buffie (May 31, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> :lol: Buffie,
> it would be very, very difficult to persuade a cat to toilet out of doors without EXITING thru the door -
> would it not?
> 
> ...


Oh I don't know,I'm sure an enterprising soul could come up with a solution


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> Pronoun trouble. :lol: which one is 'they'?... the OP, the cat-owners of the USA?... Who?
> 
> the OP just wants her cat to GO OUT so she doesn't have to provide a litter-box. :thumbdown:
> If i lived near her, i'd be happy to return Kitty's "presents".
> ...


Well, Terry, the 'they' to me is anyone barbaric enough to have their cats declawed. As to my cat, she was two when I got her from a 'home' - and I use the word loosely - where she was thrown out by the excuse for a man because he didn't like cats, then when he wasn't around the brats - sorry children - were allowed to pull her about like a cuddly toy so she retaliated and scratched them, so the mother threw her out. Then they adjusted the cat flap so the cat could get out but not back in at night 'because she brings mice in'. It took months before she would come near me, she was so wild so the fact that she comes and sits on my lap at all is a minor miracle. Even more of a miracle is that she rubs herself around the dogs' legs and licks their noses, and sits untroubled while they lick her face, almost knocking her off her perch.:biggrin: I think we are doing ok.:thumbup1:


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

buffie said:


> Can I turn that question around and ask why you think it is okay not to provide one .
> Apart from the ability to keep a check on your cats health via the litter tray
> ,the fact that by not providing one you force your cat to go outdoors in all weathers which if they are feeling unwell cant be pleasant.Then there is the "sh*tting in neighbours gardens to consider which understandably can be a problem to folks who don't appreciate having to clear up after someone elses pets.
> As for the dogs I have had dogs and litter trays and never had a problem,if you find the dogs wont leave them alone, fit a cat flap in a cupboard door or similar with the litter tray safely behind ,it job done


It is perfectly ok not to provide a litter tray if your cat prefers to go outside anyway, as most of my cats have. I have nothing against them, just curious. As to shitting in neighbours' gardens, no, I can honestly say all my cats but one have used our own garden. The one was a poor thing my daughter brought home from the shelter where she worked because no one wanted her and she was in danger of being euthanized. She wouldn't leave the bedroom so had a tray, of course. As to making a flap in a cupboard, great idea, except I don't have any cupboards except the kitchen ones and the house is rented. I had a tray for my old ginger tom when he got old, and the dog I had then used to eat it.



ouesi said:


> :lol: :lol:
> 
> From declawing, we now move on to the great litter tray debate
> 
> This thread has no hope of staying on topic.


That's what is good about this forum. A debate like this is like having a conversation with a lot of people; that never stays on topic either.



ouesi said:


> Okay, now I'm genuinely intrigued...
> 
> How did you think asking L4L if she has had her cats de-clawed was going to diffuse anything?


Far more likely to cause friction, I should think, when declawing is illegal in the UK and is a subject to have everyone up in arms.


----------

