# Poorly kitten that recently left to their new owners



## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

I am absolutely heartbroken. One of our new kitten owners contacted me yesterday saying their kitten has not been eating much and wasn't as playful. Today they called me from leaving the vet saying she had fever, blood screen was "horrible", ultrasound showed water in abdomen and they're suspecting some kind of "virus that she was born with". Of course I am sure by that they mean FIP. And to be honest, the symptoms to me really do scream FIP. It is devastating. She's been kept through the night for observation. Is there even any chance that it's anything else other than FIP? 

I always knew such things do happen and that at some point, something will happen to me. But I didn't know it would be so soon. I can't do much else other than think about this poor baby. To make it worse, the coronavirus, if it is FIP, had to come from me. They've only had this kitten since the end of January and it's their only pet. It has to be my fault...


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

It is never easy for us breeders when our kittens become ill when they leave us.

What have the blood test said ?? I must admit it sounds like FIP with fuild in the abdomen baby poor 

If it does turn out to be FIP you will have to deal with things your end with your own breeding cats .. Fcov can be high within breeding cats it's how you deal with it from this point onwards 

I test all my cats on a regular basis and have a strict cleaning routine .. 

Am so sorry no words can comfort you at the horrible time .. Keep us updated


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

So sorry I cant help with this but wanted to send you a huge hug xxx

Hoping the kitten gets better soon x


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

You ask if these symptoms could be anything other than FIP. It is not exactly reassuring but I wonder if the kitten has a liver problem. I only know of this possibility secondhand so cannot offer detailed information. However some vets think FIP immediately there are these sorts of symptoms so please do not panic just yet. What treatment has the kitten been given?


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

fingers crossed for your baby and all the cats...


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

Thanks to all. I do not know of the exact blood tests (what they showed) or the treatment she's receiving. All I know for now is what the owners tell me and I can tell that they are so heartbroken as well I just do not want to attack them with further questions just yet. Today they told me the vets will try to eliminate all other possibilities before confirming FIP, and will also do a toxoplasmosis test. We will know for sure what it is in the next three days. It is devastating. I think at this point I would be happier about any other possible diagnosis other than FIP.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

I'm so sorry this is happening to you, the new owners and especially to the little kitty. It could also be congestive heart failure because that causes fluid in the abdomen. I was told they cannot confirm FIP without a tissue sample biopsy and in some cases not until after death and a postmortem is carried out. If the titre count is high and a kitten shows symptoms of FIP they can make an educated judgment that it is likely to be this disease, but if the kitten does die, I would pay for a postmortem if I were you just to be absolutely certain. Just because a cat has a high titre count does not mean it has or will develop FIP. There is more than one strain of coronavirus and not all turn into FIP. Vets do not yet know which strains do or do not turn into FIP, their understanding of the condition is incomplete.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

So sorry to hear about this little kitten, was she one out of a litter or an only kitten, only asking because i wondered how her siblings are, 
I hope it isnt FIP, fingers x it something treatable


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I know it's still thought that you can't prove FIP until pm but Glasgow do a virus count (as opposed to antibody titre) which is pretty conclusive when all other signs point that way. It may be worth asking for this as it is a lot less upsetting for owners than waiting and asking them for a pm when they've just lost their kitten.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

According to the University of Glasgow website on FIP:

"Virus detection by RT-PCR

See also What is RT-PCR. RT-PCR detects the FCoV genome, so indicates presence of the virus. However, interpretation of such tests is difficult: healthy cats as well as cats with FIP can be positive for the virus. Also, cats with illnesses other than FIP can co-incidentally have the virus.

In my research survey, I found that it was less useful to use RT-PCR than our antibody test: to show that a cat has eliminated FCoV required only one antibody titre of less than 10 in our laboratory, but required 5 monthly negative RT-PCR tests on faeces. However, RT-PCR remains the only way to detect a carrier cat - a cat who sheds FCoV continually for 9 months or more is likely to be a lifelong carrier.

At time of writing, there is no RT-PCR which can differentiate FIP-causing coronaviruses from coronaviruses which do not cause FIP. The difference between the former and the latter is that in FIP, the FCoV can replicate in macrophages, whereas in FCoV infected cats without FIP, FCoV is not replicating in macrophages. (Replicate means multiply, macrophages are a type of white blood cell.) However, at the Second International Feline Coronavirus/Feline Infectious Peritonitis workshop, a young Dutch scientist, Fermin Simons, presented an RT-PCR he is working on which detects replicating FCoV in macrophages, his abstract is on the SIFFS website. This RT-PCR is not presently commercially available, but is a very promising test for the diagnosis of FIP."

It's worth a try.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

havoc said:


> I know it's still thought that you can't prove FIP until pm but Glasgow do a virus count (as opposed to antibody titre) which is pretty conclusive when all other signs point that way. It may be worth asking for this as it is a lot less upsetting for owners than waiting and asking them for a pm when they've just lost their kitten.


I agree with Havoc. This is something I recently had to do for a kitten I purchased. Sadly it was FIP... and a diagnosis pretty much beyond doubt.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

How do I do this (Glasgow test)? Probably by sending out a sample to them?

I am very confused over this whole ordeal. Don't really know what to do other than wait for any other news. What worries me the most is, if it is FIP, dealing with the aftermath. I only have two queens and a stud; actually when this kitten left my home I only had one queen and one stud, the other came after so she couldn't have brought it into my home, it had to be there before. I need to deal with this, but with not knowing for sure, and the amount of conflicting information I find online, I really do not know how to react. It gives me the urge to just stop breeding altogether and neuter my three, because I am afraid I will never be able to be worry-free after this and actually have a coronavirus-free household. My new future queen, still a young kitten, has only recently moved here and if we have coronavirus, she's almost certainly infected too. On top of this, she was taken to her first show this weekend, big stressor. What if it mutates... As a young cat, she is suspectible... I am so, so afraid and worried.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

HeartofClass said:


> I am so, so afraid and worried.


You have my sympathy. It's something I have been through myself as have many others.

If you want to coronavirus test your cats it's as simple as taking them to the vet, having blood drawn and sent to a lab for testing. Glasgow here in the UK are the 'gold standard' for this; though I'm not certain, I feel quite confident that they accept samples from outside of the UK. You might need to check how quickly a sample would arrive there by post and if this fits with Glasgow's requirements. But there are bound to be labs in your country offering FCoV test services.

With just a very few cats you are in a far better position than many breeders who face this problem and who are thinking about testing. If you haven't looked already, I'd suggest you read Diane Addie's web site re FIP/FCoV. I have to say that I do think some of its content is a little alarmist but it remains one of the best and most concise sources of online information for breeders.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> I agree with Havoc. This is something I recently had to do for a kitten I purchased. Sadly it was FIP... and a diagnosis pretty much beyond doubt.


Heartofclass you have my heartfelt sympathy - gskinner can I ask how often do you test your cats and how does it work if you have to go out to stud ? Did you have to test all of your cats who had been in contact with your purchase kitten again, and how long after did you have to wait to test ? I have done a fair bit of reading but still struggling to get my head around staying fcov free ? Sorry for all the questions but I think about it a lot.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I have done a fair bit of reading but still struggling to get my head around staying fcov free ?


There's never any guarantee of staying FCoV free but if you are and you want to stay that way I'd say the most important thing you can do is only use studs where the owners do controlled matings. Avoid anywhere there aren't good queen's quarters where the owner thinks they're entitled to a large fee for simply chucking your cat in with their boy and leaving them to get on with it. I test my boy reasonably regularly but a bit like an MoT it's only really valid for that day, the next visiting queen could be +ve. I always considered Diane Addie's hope of creating a register of -ve tested studs flawed for this reason. A shared litter tray is by far the biggest risk factor as far as I'm concerned and I've stayed clear by making sure it never happens.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I happen to have been asked about this very recently so can do a quick copy and paste from the email I sent.



> When I had it I found out as many do by testing to prove I was -ve. I had no reason other than wanting to be smug - pride and falls hey. I tested one cat, there was no test for shedding in faeces then, only the blood test for antibody titre. I tested that cat along with two others six months later and one still showed a low titre. I waited another six months and tested them all over the following three months (cost again) - all clear. The vet would have had me test them far more often at huge cost but my focus was on clearing it rather than just knowing I'd got it. Clearing it relied in the main on changing litter, litter trays and stopping tracking - nothing madly complicated.


The aim is to break the cycle of reinfection. I managed it in an eight cat household without separating cats into groups. I did change the cat litter I used to one recommended on Diane Addie's site. Her table claimed it killed FCoV. I'm not so sure but I did (and still do) believe that 'coverage' and tracking are of prime importance.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

wicket said:


> Heartofclass you have my heartfelt sympathy - gskinner can I ask how often do you test your cats and how does it work if you have to go out to stud ? Did you have to test all of your cats who had been in contact with your purchase kitten again, and how long after did you have to wait to test ? I have done a fair bit of reading but still struggling to get my head around staying fcov free ? Sorry for all the questions but I think about it a lot.


That's difficult to answer in a reasonably brief way without sounding flippant and that I have my head in the sand about FCoV and FIP.

In 30 years of breeding I've had three experiences of FIP. The first about 25 years ago where two kittens I sold from the same litter developed FIP. To try and be brief, that led me to testing all my cats (repeatedly), managing them accordingly, and early weaning (at 5 weeks to the day) kittens with mothers that I knew to be FCoV+. All I can tell you about that lengthy period of time is that I would never, ever early wean kittens at that age ever again.

The second was 4/5 years ago - FIP diagnosed in a 7 month old kitten I had sold as a pet at 14/15 weeks.

Both the above incidents were clouded by the fact that both owners had purchased kittens from other breeders at around the same time (on one the same day actually) as my own.

The third was a kitten I purchased from another breeder just recently. Having appeared healthy during her 'quarantine' period here, two days after being introduced to three of my own bred (older) kittens she suddenly became unwell, FIP was diagnosed shortly thereafter. The one certainty is that she came to me with a very high FCoV titre (it was in the 1000's upon testing and she also proved to have a long standing anaemia) and possibly had already begun to succumb to FIP. Obviously, given the FCoV incubation period of 2-3 weeks meant that having only been with my kittens for 2 days before falling critically ill, she hadn't picked it up here. We'd had her for a little over 2 weeks.

The shortest and best way I could answer your question is to say that I don't routinely FCoV test. I cannot see the point unless I perceive there is or might be a problem. In the past, FCoV testing alone has proven worthless to me. All my cats, every single one, remained healthy and I lost no other kittens at any time to FIP either here or in their new homes. I occasionally go out to stud, I very occasionally buy in a kitten, I show albeit infrequently and I'm not prepared to feel that I must live in the shadow of it constantly.

I would say that I am mindful (perhaps in the extreme compared to some breeders) of how I keep/manage my cats in other ways with FCoV in mind. Naturally I am somewhat concerned for my three kittens who were in contact with the sick kitten. I've tested one of them on the assumption that if one is FCoV+ then all three will be. The result was 320. He (and probably the other kittens he lives with) will be retested in a couple of months and so on. But I will be doing nothing differently even had I never purchased and introduced this other kitten, i.e. they're a small group kept together, I clean and scoop trays like a mad woman, their environment is spotless and none of the kittens will be shown or put under any other kind of stress.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

When I kept my first stud in 1997, I decided to test my cats for coronavirus. I had no problems in the past (I thought) so I was shocked to find many of them had a very low titre. (They were infected sometime before and were now close to zero.) One of my girls had a titre greater than 1280 and she always did until I stopped testing her and just begged my vet to neuter her. He was reluctant in case it tipped her over into FIP. Thank goodness the science has moved on and we now know that a longterm carrier will not develop disease. (This is not relevant here but she died just before she was 10 from mammary tumours which would probably not have happened if she had been neutered at a normal age.)

Although I had a multicat household, I simply separated the cats into neuters and entires. The entires were tested again and came down to zero very quickly so it is possible to clear the virus especially as you have only three cats. A friend of mine also managed to clear her cats within months and they had higher titres when she discovered she had a problem. Constant cleaning of the litter trays is crucial to success. 

Having said all that, you do not even know if your cats have the virus yet. Surely it would be best to bloodtest them as soon as possible.They may all be negative. (I am not convinced that nearly all indoor cats have coronavirus. Anybody who has to use a public stud is at great risk but you have your own stud so please do not over-react and give up breeding. It may not be necessary at all.)


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> All I can tell you about that lengthy period of time is that I would never, ever early wean kittens at that age ever again.


When I discovered it in my household I had a heavily pregnant girl and the one thing I wasn't prepared to do was the early weaning and separation regime. It would have caused huge stress to all involved which struck me as counter productive. I did manage to stop the mum using the kittens' litter tray and vice versa. The kitten tray was enclosed in a box with a hole cut too small for mum and her tray was put up too high for kittens to reach. I did keep that litter separated from the rest of the household. I tested one at 14 weeks or so which I was keeping longer at the new owner's convenience - happily -ve.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

havoc said:


> There's never any guarantee of staying FCoV free but if you are and you want to stay that way I'd say the most important thing you can do is only use studs where the owners do controlled matings. Avoid anywhere there aren't good queen's quarters where the owner thinks they're entitled to a large fee for simply chucking your cat in with their boy and leaving them to get on with it. I test my boy reasonably regularly but a bit like an MoT it's only really valid for that day, the next visiting queen could be +ve. I always considered Diane Addie's hope of creating a register of -ve tested studs flawed for this reason. A shared litter tray is by far the biggest risk factor as far as I'm concerned and I've stayed clear by making sure it never happens.


It's really hard to find stud boys let alone anyone that does controlled matings - I remember asking about litter before and did change at that time - thank you both for your input it really helps - I find as a newbie it's difficult to get anyone to talk about it. Going forward I am hoping to keep my own boy which will help.

Gskinner thank you for your detailed reply it really helps to know how you have dealt with it.


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## Burmesemum (Mar 7, 2015)

So sorry to hear this.

My kitten Dexter passed away from FIP at 9 months but I believe he was unwell when I got him as we had him back and forth to the vet for months on end with one ailment or another until his abdomen became very swollen and I knew immediately it was FIP.

I did ask the vet before he was pts if it could possibly be anything else and he told me even if it was something else (he mentioned heart problems) that too would be very serious and it was his opinion to pts.

Loads of ((((hugs)))) to you at this worrying time.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

havoc said:


> the one thing I wasn't prepared to do was the early weaning and separation regime.


I very much regret ever doing so and, thanks to fear of 'it' happening again, once I started I couldn't stop... for some years. I'm sure I don't need to explain the horrible logistics of what it meant for 5 week old kittens and their mums, plus the work and stress to me involved in trying to feed 5 week old kittens who simply weren't interested.

I routinely randomly tested various kittens from litters to check that it was "working". All were always zero... until one wasn't and proved to have a titre at 14 weeks of 1280. (Incidentally she remained a healthy cat for the 8 years I was still in contact with her owner). This was pre the time we had faecal PCR tests available. The kittens' mother had a titre of 40. I remember contacting Diane Addie who said that either (a) the kittens had become infected prior to 5 weeks; it did occasionally happen, she said or (b) my barrier nursing the litter had broken down on that occasion.

Either way, as you can imagine I stopped early weaning instantly.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I went to a seminar many years ago where one of the speakers was Danielle Gunn-Moore on the subject of coronavirus and FIP. She said that, in their laboratory conditions they had never managed to keep a control group free of the virus, so I should think it is almost impossible in a normal household.

I have some respect for Diane Addie because she does manage to publicise certain conditions but it is easy to get these things out of proportion. Even Dr. Addie states very few cats develop FIP compared with those who have coronavirus. The current research at Langford and elsewhere is, I think, hoping to establish if there is a genetic predisposition that allows the virus to mutate in certain conditions.

If I were still breeding, I am afraid I would want my own stud (not just for this reason) and I would breed from negative cats. If this ideal was not possible I would not worry too much unless I had a kitten diagnosed conclusively with FIP. It does seem to be in certain lines rather than in households so it would be sensible not to breed from a susceptible line especially since there is no control of the virus if a kitten meets it in its new home.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I have some respect for Diane Addie because she does manage to publicise certain conditions but *it is easy to get these things out of proportion*.


If I could get one message across this is it. The vast majority of breeders either have lived or are living with FCoV +ve cats. I will never forget that stomach churning moment when you find out nor the panic which follows. I suppose the adrenalin rush is quite useful for the mad attack of frantic deep cleaning of the whole house which is the inevitable next step 

I don't actually regret having gone through it. I learned that my lines probably aren't genetically predisposed to seroconvert.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

It truly is a horrible thing to go through ... My stud back in 2013 aged 22 weeks become ill I was heartbroken as he was my first boy which I had waited so long for .. Tested Fcov positive with titre count of 10350 the vet said it was FIP .. Anyway he got better after 3 weeks of ABs and TLC he is now 3 years old and FCov free 

I cleaned like mad everyday and I have continue this with every catj .. Two cats per pen max .. Litter trays are cleaned twice a day and disfectined twice a week .. All pens floors and sleeping area are disinfected once a week (bedding and toys in the washer ) etc 

I test every 6 months bloods and poo sample .. For the past 20 months we have 0 titre counts .. I do show so there is always a chance we could pick it up again .. I just keep cleaning and feeding a healthy food etc 

So it can be done .. Just a lot of hard work getting there and keeping it up


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I went to a seminar many years ago where one of the speakers was Danielle Gunn-Moore on the subject of coronavirus and FIP. She said that, in their laboratory conditions they had never managed to keep a control group free of the virus, so I should think it is almost impossible in a normal household



Do you have any more details? Did she mean a control group of adult cats or a mum with kittens or separated kittens? It obviously is perfectly possible to clear the virus in field conditions because many of us have done so and with cats in much larger groups than was first suggested. Keeping a household clear is never a given but if they couldn't do so in laboratory conditions then where was it coming from? It had to be reintroduced from somewhere.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

Well I see the topic has steered away somewhat but just to update... The kitten is receiving infusion (don't know if this is the proper English expression? Hopefully you understand) and antibiotics treatment. They are still waiting for the results that will "confirm if it is FIP", but I do not know whether this is a simple coronavirus antibodies count (that would probably not be of much use) or something else, I will try to ask and get in touch with the vets that this kitten is at so I hear it first-hand. Apparently she was slightly better yesterday, wanted to cuddle and talk, but it still... Is what it is.  

I have become so increasingly worried I took my youngest girl (4.5 month) to my parents' house (away from the two adults) and have just taken her to the local vets to have her blood sample taken and sent to a laboratory in Germany to do a "FIP profile". I do not know exactly what they will do but apparently it's more reliable than a simple coronavirus antibodies test, however I am now thinking what good will this even do BUT she did have 1. diarrhea yesterday and 2. had a slight temperature at the vets (but they said it could be stress from being there, it was 39.5 celsius). Overall I was extremely displeased with the vets' treatment (they took her blood sample TWICE because they didn't store it properly first, and had to sedate her to take it but apparently there was "no other way" as I refused to have her shaved, there's a lot more but this is not the place or time to speak of this). So we are waiting and hoping for the best.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

Oh and we also did an ultrasound with my girl at the vets' today and nothing was out of the ordinary. I am still thinking whether to ask our other kitten's owners for their vet's name/phone number. I would love to hear everything first-hand and hope to be able to help in any way I possibly could, but is it inappropriate to ask for this?


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## Lemonzaz (Mar 15, 2015)

In reply to your latest post, I don't think its inappropiate at all - plus it also shows how interested you are in the welfare of your kittens and their owners. I think the only feedback you would receive from asking that would be positive. (I'm not a breeder but would have no problem with a breeder wanting my vet details and if i was a breeder myself, I would not be hesitant in asking for potential or new owners vet details).


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I understand your concerns and worries, I really do, but I do think you're jumping the gun just a little. I can see no reason not to test your own kitten (and the two adults) for FCoV antibodies but I really don't see the need for an FIP profile - in my experience this is something that is only done when a cat is sick and a vet is trying to rule in/out an FIP diagnosis. Loose stool and a slightly elevated temperature in a kitten could be no more than teething. It could be that she is seroconverting an FCoV infection but that, in itself, is something you would except to happen IF she has been in contact with a cat or cats shedding FCoV.

I don't think it would be inappropriate at all to ask if you could speak with the kitten's owner's vet. It's so much easier to understand and take everything in 'first hand' rather than it being repeated by the owner.


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## osochicragdolls (Mar 19, 2015)

The signs explained are similar to Fip , but could also be a number of other ailments 


Unfortunately FIP is very hard to prove, does tend to pray on the young Ragdoll kittens after 14 weeks and a cat would not in the clear until they are at least 18 months old. It is very difficult for any vet after screening to say it is definitely FIP, there is no definite test, thus it is one of those situations where you can only manage the risks and do your best as a breeder.

Keep cat colony lower than five.
Top Husbandry.

Condolences on the loss, I do empathise with the emotional impact this could have.

It is the ugly side of breeding , take care.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Havoc, I assumed the lab staff unintentionally transmitted the virus to the control group and Danielle Gunn-Moore was illustrating how infectious the virus is.

Yes, we know from experience it is relatively easy to clear the virus from a group of cats but is it possible to stop infection in the first place? I cannot answer that from personal experience since all except one of my titres was already on the way down when I discovered my cats had the virus.

Somebody else may be more up to date with the current research. I wonder if cats who have already had the virus are more resistant to re-infection than was originally thought.

Heartofclass, I really sympathise with your situation, but please don't jump to conclusions. Even if your new kitten has the virus (you don't even know yet if it is actually in your household,) there is nothing to suggest she would go on to develop FIP. Presumably both the parents of the sick kitten are well? They did not die from FIP as kittens. I do hope your fears are groundless.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

osochicragdolls, please do not offer me condolences on the loss, so far we are remaining optimistic.



gskinner123 said:


> I understand your concerns and worries, I really do, but I do think you're jumping the gun just a little. I can see no reason not to test your own kitten (and the two adults) for FCoV antibodies but I really don't see the need for an FIP profile - in my experience this is something that is only done when a cat is sick and a vet is trying to rule in/out an FIP diagnosis. Loose stool and a slightly elevated temperature in a kitten could be no more than teething. It could be that she is seroconverting an FCoV infection but that, in itself, is something you would except to happen IF she has been in contact with a cat or cats shedding FCoV.
> 
> I don't think it would be inappropriate at all to ask if you could speak with the kitten's owner's vet. It's so much easier to understand and take everything in 'first hand' rather than it being repeated by the owner.


Well, to be honest, all I wanted to do was test my kitten for the FCoV antibodies, and the vets just offered to do the "FIP profile" instead (as it was same price), insisted that "she is in a lot of danger now" and kept asking of her "symptoms", even though I kept saying that this is only preventative (explained the whole situation, including that the diagnosis of the other kitten has not been concluded yet). Then they went off to say that coronavirus is "a death sentence for breeders" and "if you have it in your household, as long as you do not get rid of all the current cats you have and start over, you will not be able to steer clear" and when I mentioned special hygiene regime all I got was some huge shaking off and "no hygiene will help once you have it". At that point they also decided that an ultrasound would be helpful for her so they went on to do that as well.

I paid 60€ for the "FIP profiling" alone and the experience was at the very least, extremely stressful for my kitten, who is usually the type to purr even at the vet's. First they tried to hold her down (three vets) and take her blood and she screamed and moved so much it was impossible, then a vet suggested to shave AND sedate her, they ended up sedating her (which I disapproved at first as well) + waking her up (by injection) to be able to take a vile of blood which due to improper storage got ruined in minutes and they repeated it all. Disregarding the two samples taken, is this really the only way to approach the matter? I would like to repeatedly test all of my cats, but this experience was so very stressful for my kitten it really does not seem doable, nor smart. My older female is terrified of vets, and my big strong male surely will not be still enough for them to be able to take the blood without sedation.

I am in contact with the owners by text, at around 2pm I politely asked to get the name of the vets' the kitten from my breeding is at and suggested that I might be able to help with the diagnosis offering any sort of information on the parents/history they might need. I have not gotten a reply since. I don't know why.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

Is it possible that the owners are unwilling to give me contact details of their vets because they think I might intentionally lead them to believe that whatever it is is not my fault but the owners'? Or am I overthinking this? 
These past few days have honestly been horrible. I can tell I am in panic mode because I really am acting irrationally at the moment and overthinking everything.

I just reread my contract which I wrote with the help of some of my much more experienced breeder friends. It didn't cross my mind until now, but it does include a paragraph that states: "The breeder guranatees the cat is free of FeLV and FIP at the time of leaving the cattery. The breeder cannot guarantee that the cat will not get these diseases in the future." I do not really want to think about it properly just yet as it doesn't feel right... But I will say that I would do what I morally feel is right should it arise - disregarding this term, but in this case I would certainly like to be more involved with the treatment and diagnosis of this kitten. For now all I have is the owners' word.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

HeartofClass said:


> Well, to be honest, all I wanted to do was test my kitten for the FCoV antibodies, and the vets just offered to do the "FIP profile" instead (as it was same price), insisted that "she is in a lot of danger now" and kept asking of her "symptoms", even though I kept saying that this is only preventative (explained the whole situation, including that the diagnosis of the other kitten has not been concluded yet). Then they went off to say that coronavirus is "a death sentence for breeders" and "if you have it in your household, as long as you do not get rid of all the current cats you have and start over, you will not be able to steer clear" and when I mentioned special hygiene regime all I got was some huge shaking off and "no hygiene will help once you have it". At that point they also decided that an ultrasound would be helpful for her so they went on to do that as well.
> 
> I paid 60 for the "FIP profiling" alone and the experience was at the very least, extremely stressful for my kitten, who is usually the type to purr even at the vet's. First they tried to hold her down (three vets) and take her blood and she screamed and moved so much it was impossible, then a vet suggested to shave AND sedate her, they ended up sedating her (which I disapproved at first as well) + waking her up (by injection) to be able to take a vile of blood which due to improper storage got ruined in minutes and they repeated it all. Disregarding the two samples taken, is this really the only way to approach the matter? I would like to repeatedly test all of my cats, but this experience was so very stressful for my kitten it really does not seem doable, nor smart. My older female is terrified of vets, and my big strong male surely will not be still enough for them to be able to take the blood without sedation.(


Oh dear  No, it really shouldn't and needn't be like this. My own vet drew blood from one of my 7 month old kittens (for FCoV testing) just recently. It took seconds, no sedation, minimum stress to the kitten.

I guess you never know how an even very laid back cat/kitten is going to react to blood being drawn but yes, I would be concerned about that scenario being repeated with my other cats.

I honestly don't believe there is any great rush to FCoV test your two adults. You haven't even a diagnosis for the unwell kitten yet. Why not wait until that happens and take it from there?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Yes, we know from experience it is relatively easy to clear the virus from a group of cats but is it possible to stop infection in the first place?


Unless you close yourself off completely you can't guarantee to stop infection and I really wish people would understand this. There's still a horrible stigma attached to FCoV/FIP which actually makes it more difficult for young/new breeders to get good advice and deal with the problem sensibly and effectively. I'll lay money those of us prepared to discuss it openly are not in the first flush of youth. You only have to read the reaction of the vets in this case to see that the very mention of the virus creates hysteria even among professionals who should know better. The huge irony is that Diane Addie's work pulled us out of the dark ages in many ways only to create this climate of fear in others.



> I honestly don't believe there is any great rush to FCoV test your two adults.


Not often this happens with this poster but I disagree (sorry). If there's a wish to carry on breeding then I think it's important to establish their status without delay and work to change it if necessary. Only then can the breeder make an informed decision and plan the future. I don't buy into the idea that it's pointless trying to eradicate FCoV from your own household because anything you breed may be infected somewhere else once they've gone to new homes. I can't for the life of me remember who said it, nor at which seminar, but where initial infection is concerned I have 'later is better' in my head and it makes sense, if only because we load a young kitten with the stressors which we believe have a role in seroconversion. Yes, there's a predisposition to seroconvert in certain cats/lines but the bottom line is still that a kitten which hasn't been infected with FCoV can't die of FIP.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

Okay, I have read a ton of articles, listened to the vets and other breeders, and with all the different information, experience and advice I hear, am still confused over a few things. 

So basically, it is nearly impossible to prevent initial infection. But to my understanding, cats (usually, unless they are life-time carriers) shed the virus for some time and then stop - so in a cat that has been infected with coronavirus, usually the antibodies will not be present at all time but will eventually go down which means what - the cat "got rid of the virus for good"? Or is there a risk for FIP with every new infection/encounter of this same cat and coronavirus? Can a cat keep getting infected, shedding the virus and with each time, there is that same 5-10% risk that it will mutate? If this is the case - can this cycle be stopped with proper hygiene and prevention of coronavirus being "highly present" in my home? 

What I mean it - let's say coronavirus is at this time present in my household - according to the vet yesterday, there is nothing I can do other than stop breeding from all the cats living with me, moving them out of my home and starting with new cats. Is this true, or is it possible to keep these same cats, yet in some way be able to at the very least reduce greatly the risk of any kittens (disregarding whether this kitten has it or not, it has been a huge wake-up call) developing FIP or even becoming infected?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

havoc said:


> Not often this happens with this poster but I disagree (sorry)


I think we're on the same page  By no rush, I meant a few days on the assumption that surely it could take no longer than that for the blood results to be returned for the sick kitten. I just felt the OP, perhaps understandably, had already rushed headlong into particular tests/a scan that really weren't necessary on her own kitten and I don't think she should even think about repeating that exercise with the two adults without the benefit of the sick kitten's test results.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

HeartofClass said:


> according to the vet yesterday, there is nothing I can do other than stop breeding from all the cats living with me, moving them out of my home and starting with new cats. Is this true


If you've researched even a modest amount about FIP/FCoV you must know this isn't true? Maybe it's not the right time to look for another vet but I'd respectfully suggest you search out a far more clued up vet in the not too distant future.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

Yes I do. Same as I know that RC kibbles are by far not the best diet for cats and I don't doubt that even when the vets try to tell me otherwise... Yet in this emotionally draining time I seem to be eager to believe any possible negative prognosis. Ah. :crying: Luckily, this is not my actual vets, just a clinic close to my parents' house where I brought my own kitten.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

It's dreadful not knowing and just waiting for a text/call. I don't understand why the owners simply ignored my well-intended wish to be able to reach their veterinarian.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I just felt the OP, perhaps understandably, had already rushed headlong into particular tests/a scan that really weren't necessary on her own kitten and I don't think she should even think about repeating that exercise with the two adults without the benefit of the sick kitten's test results.


I'd agree but for her own contract which guarantees kittens leave her free of the disease. You can't make that claim until and unless your cats are tested and proven clear.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

My contract guarantees kittens leave free of FIP, not coronavirus. Obviously none of the kittens from my breeding at the time of leaving had, nor any cats currently in my household have, any symptoms conclusively indicating towards FIP.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

obviously owners of the kitten would have to have someproff that thekitten had FIP - and in case they needed refund I think you should be allowed to know who diagnosed the kitten etc....
I just wish all went well and kitten got better, until you can do more to find out about your cats - obviously refrain from breeding , and maybe in any case - for a while...
I have no idea - if possible to take cats to the vet in Germany etc?
I assume you might be from neighbour country? 
For example in Poland clinics vary a lot in their advancement in treatment!
Sometimes when vets are breeders themselves they can be more helpful in your predicament(my experience from Poland...vet who bred dogs and cats knew much more about how to prevent spreading problems and so on) ..


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

I am so sorry to hear that your kitten is very ill. It is one of my biggest fears as a breeder.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> My contract guarantees kittens leave free of FIP, not coronavirus


I had noticed that and you're in a different country so it may be fine. Here in the UK I'd strongly advise a breeder not to include such a claim.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Heartofclass, 80% of FIP cases are in young cats under two years. 

As I understand it, the virus, when it mutates, sets up a battle with the cat's T-cell immunity rather than the antibodies. In that respect it is similar to other viruses which infect cats such as Felv and even Herpesvirus. If the virus overcomes the T-cell immunity, FIP results. An antibody titre can tell you if a cat has been fighting the virus but it cannot give you an indication of the success of its response.

I think you could eliminate the virus (if you actually have it in your household) and prevent it returning. There are various tests available now including faecal as well as blood tests which you could use to establish your cats are negative before you breed again. Don't forget the mode of transmission is almost exclusively the faecal-oral route although I think it is possible to transmit in saliva in the initial infection. (I could be out of date about the initial infection.) 

If you have a closed household and thoroughly clean your premises and breed from negative cats, I cannot see how it can return. Surely it would be well-nigh impossible to bring home the virus by mistake and for faeces to reach one of your cats' mouths. Normal hygiene would avoid such an occurrence. I think infection at a vet surgery is not likely with this virus unlike respiratory disease.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

I just got a call from the owners. The kitten tested negative for coronavirus and a few mutations. But she does have toxoplasmosis. I will update more later, am just writing on my phone now. I try not to be too hapoy about this as the kitten still obviously has a problem but now that we know it's not FIP, I just feel so relieved!!! Am still waiting for results of my own kitten's "FIP profile". HUGE wake up call!


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

Oops accidently picked thumbs down icon for my previous post!!


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## smoking guns (Feb 24, 2015)

HeartofClass said:


> I just got a call from the owners. The kitten tested negative for coronavirus and a few mutations. But she does have toxoplasmosis. I will update more later, am just writing on my phone now. I try not to be too hapoy about this as the kitten still obviously has a problem but now that we know it's not FIP, I just feel so relieved!!! Am still waiting for results of my own kitten's "FIP profile". HUGE wake up call!


Huh, I wonder how the kitten got toxoplasmosis? Usually cats get it through eating an intermediary host eg. an infected rodent or raw/undercooked meat carrying T. gondii tissue cysts, both of which seem a bit worrying! Do the kitten owners know to be very careful when handling cat litter as it can be passed onto humans via cat poo?

Very glad it's not FIP though as I read through a really awful thread on Facebook that followed a poor wee kitten who eventually succumbed.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

Well bizzarely I just got a call from the vets that did the FIP profiling on my kitten and she is positive for coronavirus. I will be geting the detailed results e-mailed soon. Not sure what this means - either the other kitten already survived the infection she got at my house, or my new kitten brought it with. The litter was at the new homes already when my new kitten came. So I will still need to deal with this and now, I am concerned with my new kitten as well.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Even if your kitten does have the corona virus, the chances of her developing FIP are about 1%. 
The best you can do for your kitten is keep her healthy and free of stress, and do everything possible to clear the virus from your household.

How high is her titre?


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

She is 1:400 in antibodies. She is also a little low in albumins, and a little high in globulins. A bit higher in leukocytes, lower in thrombocytes, and again a bit higher in lymphocytes. All of these measures are only slightly out of the normal range, but it does concern me that many are used as indicators of FIP.  But I read that some can also be out of range due to stress and she was very stressed at the time the blood was taken, and we've been to a show this weekend. Could teething play a part? She is experiencing it at the moment quite a lot.


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

Sorry to hijack here but I'm hoping someone can calm me down somewhat. FIP seems like a random thing that you can't predict that can just crop up and is a death sentance from what i have seen on the forum. My cats are both moggies from people who will of just let mum get pregnant and i'm petrified that they could just develop this. even by pm can someone help me please


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

FIP is a mutation of the corona virus. Quite a lot of cats encounter a corona infection during their life, but 99% of them NEVER develop FIP.
Moreover, the mutated virus is not infectious, so there is no chance of a FIP cat infecting another cat.

I have had 21 cats during my lifetime, 18 of which during my adult life, and 2 of them have died of FIP, which is an extremely high percentage, but most of my cats are rescue moggies, many with an extremely bad start in life.

One cat developed FIP due to extreme stress after her owner died after being in and out of hospital for over a year. She was left in her house for another month, being looked after by neighbours and relatives, before moving in with me. I have no doubt she just could not get over the death of her slave and the stress of it caused the disease to take a hold.

The other cat was a kitten from a litter found on the street, of which 2 kittens died, one at 8 weeks, presumably of FIP, and the other, my Gaudi, at 10 months, definitely of FIP. I still have another cat from the same litter, Connor, who is now 4 years old and very healthy.

FIP strikes cats when their immune system is most vulnerable, so during kittenhood, old age and times of extreme chronic stress or as a complication of an underlying disease. When a kitten dies of FIP, it has usually been infected with corona as a foetus and been sick, stressed and/or undernourished either as a foetus or a very young kitten.

So in general, the risk of a happy, healthy cat developing FIP is minimal.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Jiskefet said:


> When a kitten dies of FIP, it has usually been infected with corona as a foetus


I don't think this is possible.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I don't think this is possible.


Neither do I. Most of the cases I've known with kittens follow a fairly predictable pattern of a healthy litter doing very well until a bout of upset stomachs some time after they're weaned. I reckon this is the initial infection of FCoV and ties in with waning maternal antibodies. It's usually with hindsight a breeder remembers this when hearing of the death of a kitten from FIP sometime from around six weeks to three/four months after it's gone to the new home. A bit of mind searching by the breeder and they realise that the FIP kitten never did really come right back up to par and they'd just put it down to that kitten being the quiet one, not ill quiet but maybe not quite as lively as the others. Hindsight is always clear vision though and I'd hate anyone to think this meant a breeder could predict the tragedy. They can't. There are always differing personalities in any litter of kittens, that initial bout of upset tums often coincides with first vaccinations. What's more, I've simply given what I've found to be a scenario which rings true from cases I've followed ie if I get a phone call or email about a kitten with suspected FIP and giving that scenario my heart sinks. I'm sure there are people on here who have known it pan out differently.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

I would just like to publicly say a big THANK YOU to Shoshannah who selflessly analysed the lab tests of my kitten for me. The vets that did it really didn't give me any other explanation regarding the results rather than "keep an eye on her", but with our wonderful PF member's help I know actually understand what her measurements say. THANKS and happy birthday!!


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

Well the tables have turned. I have just received a call from the owners' vet. The kitten was taken home this weekend but has come back as she wasn't doing too well. The vet advised me to "screen my breeding cats for toxoplasmosis" because "the only way for an indoor cat to get infected with toxoplasmosis is through the womb". When I asked about raw meat, which I know has been often fed to the kitten it was "ah no, not raw meat". It all sounded pretty accusatory to be honest. She also asked if I screened my cats for corona. 

Suddenly when it became clear the kitten is not suffering from FIP, they looked elsewhere and apparently assumed that it must be my fault, so I am now blamed for the toxoplasmosis. I don't know if what the vet told me - re toxoplasmosis ways to get infected - is even true. Or if it could be "quiet" for a few weeks and suddenly become a problem, like it happens to corona when FIP occurs. I may be overreacting but I am starting to feel really bad about this. I will have no problem whatsoever taking the blame if it turns out it is 'my fault', but I don't like the sound of being accused in advance.


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## smoking guns (Feb 24, 2015)

I'm pretty sure that vet is chatting rubbish, or at least is getting their facts mixed up.



> because "the only way for an indoor cat to get infected with toxoplasmosis is through the womb". When I asked about raw meat, which I know has been often fed to the kitten it was "ah no, not raw meat".


Wrong. The _most common way_ for an indoor cat to get the parasite that causes toxoplasmosis is from raw meat.

One way for _human_ babies to be infected by T. gondii is through the womb, which is why pregnant women are told not to clean litter trays. I don't believe it passes on from mother cats to kittens - in fact, from ICatCare:



> Infection in a pregnant cat can cause severe signs of illness in the offspring such as foetal death, abortion, stillbirths and death of young kittens, but this is unusual.


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## Bryxy (Jun 6, 2013)

HeartofClass said:


> Well the tables have turned. I have just received a call from the owners' vet. The kitten was taken home this weekend but has come back as she wasn't doing too well. The vet advised me to "screen my breeding cats for toxoplasmosis" because "the only way for an indoor cat to get infected with toxoplasmosis is through the womb". When I asked about raw meat, which I know has been often fed to the kitten it was "ah no, not raw meat". It all sounded pretty accusatory to be honest. She also asked if I screened my cats for corona.
> 
> Suddenly when it became clear the kitten is not suffering from FIP, they looked elsewhere and apparently assumed that it must be my fault, so I am now blamed for the toxoplasmosis. I don't know if what the vet told me - re toxoplasmosis ways to get infected - is even true. Or if it could be "quiet" for a few weeks and suddenly become a problem, like it happens to corona when FIP occurs. I may be overreacting but I am starting to feel really bad about this. I will have no problem whatsoever taking the blame if it turns out it is 'my fault', but I don't like the sound of being accused in advance.


Toxoplasmosis can be transmitted both via raw meat and transplacentally (mother to fetus). So your vet is wrong on one thing but right on the other. They're overall wrong that transplacental transmission is the only way for an indoor cat to get toxoplasmosis. Both raw meat and unpasteurised goats milk are possible routes of transmission.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

I have also just done my research and every info I can find says that infection via the womb means severe consequences - stillborn kittens, many kittens dying soon after birth. We had 4 kittens born, no stillborns, all survived and are happily in their new homes now. 
It also says that cats that do show clinical signs of toxoplasmosis show them at the time of infection (which would mean the owners' home) or either the virus becomes reactivated once the immune system is weakened by some other condition. So this other part would suggest that infection could, possibly, happen at our home, but there would have to be some other problem now for it to be reactivated at this time. 
I really do not know. Should I screen the mother cat for toxoplasmosis antibodies?


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## Bryxy (Jun 6, 2013)

smoking guns said:


> I'm pretty sure that vet is chatting rubbish, or at least is getting their facts mixed up.
> 
> Wrong. The _most common way_ for an indoor cat to get the parasite that causes toxoplasmosis is from raw meat.
> 
> One way for _human_ babies to be infected by T. gondii is through the womb, which is why pregnant women are told not to clean litter trays. I don't believe it passes on from mother cats to kittens - in fact, from ICatCare:


Transplacental transmission in cats is uncommon but possible. And that's also what they are saying in your quote from ICatCare. Transplacental transmission causes the most severe clinical signs in kittens and they often are stillborn or die soon after birth.
The chronic form of toxoplasma in adult cats can also cause abortion but that is a clinical sign of the adult infection, as far as I'm aware, without transplacental transmission to the kitten involved.


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## Bryxy (Jun 6, 2013)

HeartofClass said:


> I have also just done my research and every info I can find says that infection via the womb means severe consequences - stillborn kittens, many kittens dying soon after birth. We had 4 kittens born, no stillborns, all survived and are happily in their new homes now.
> It also says that cats that do show clinical signs of toxoplasmosis show them at the time of infection (which would mean the owners' home) or either the virus becomes reactivated once the immune system is weakened by some other condition. So this other part would suggest that infection could, possibly, happen at our home, but there would have to be some other problem now for it to be reactivated at this time.
> I really do not know. Should I screen the mother cat for toxoplasmosis antibodies?


As far as I'm aware there are three things that can reactivate infection - intercurrent disease, peri-parturient period in queens or corticosteroid therapy. So pregnancy itself would be what could reactivate the infection. 
Given the severity of clinical signs of kittens infected transplacentally I would be surprised if you had seen no sign of it before they left to their new home. If the kitten had been fed raw meat I'd think that is a more likely source.

If they are trying to put the blame on you, maybe screen the mother for your own proof and peace of mind?


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## MightyMouse88 (Aug 20, 2014)

I found this which might be helpful. I thought it explains it all very well.

toxoplasmosis

seems raw meat and unwashed fruit and vegetables are the highest risk for cats, humans and other animals to get it from.

It doesn't say much about a mother cat being infected and passing it to her kittens - but if either you or the new owner fed the kitten raw meat, that would be the most likely source of infection.


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