# Search for studs



## GRACE555 (Jul 18, 2013)

IN your search for a prospective stud cat.( what do you breeders look for}ie the quality of the cat,the show wins. colours,obviously every one wants to improve on their lines, no point breeding other wise and where do you look there are not many bsh colour points advertised. i wanted to look for a seal point stud for my blue point girl. for late next year.but would have liked to study other breeders lines first,and cant seem to find (seal ) regards grace


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

You need to look for something that's going to improve the faults in your girl, because she will have some. That needs to be your primary drive. Show wins are nice, but they don't dictate whether you do or don't use a stud. His type does.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

GRACE555 said:


> IN your search for a prospective stud cat.( what do you breeders look for}ie the quality of the cat,the show wins. colours,obviously every one wants to improve on their lines, no point breeding other wise and where do you look there are not many bsh colour points advertised. i wanted to look for a seal point stud for my blue point girl. for late next year.but would have liked to study other breeders lines first,and cant seem to find (seal ) regards grace


Colourpoints i can help you here or point you in the right direction.

I think to use a nice boy is a good start i dont go on show wins champion stud,cause a champ stud doesnt mean show quality kittens as 2 non show quality cats could produce a show cat swings and round abouts really.

Pm me if you like.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

I look for a nice type boy.. Colour,eyes, ears and coat , Faults not the same as my girls ... Not close related to my girls and a reputable breeder .

You don't see alot of seal boys and if you do they are closed stud , I know a couple of breeders but not sure if there are closed or the correct blood group 

Speak to WLBSH ... She has a better database than me 

Are you wanting just seal kittens from this mating ??


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## GRACE555 (Jul 18, 2013)

would prefer seal and lilac but from as you say a reputable breeder thats why i asked this question early so i could look around .thanks for you reply cosmills


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

GRACE555 said:


> would prefer seal and lilac but from as you say a reputable breeder thats why i asked this question early so i could look around .thanks for you reply cosmills


Dont think youv got enough pms,i know someone with a nice seal boy not sure on the distance though.

Even a black self carrying colourpoint could be an option if you want some sealpoints.Or a chocloate boy who carries cp could be used.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I find that going to shows helped - I was able to see Rudi before I committed to taking Lola to him, plus his owner saw Lola. It can also sometimes help get a meting with a cat that's at 'closed stud'.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

To get all seal you need a seal stud the dose not carry dilute or choc (good luck with that one) 

Or choc not carrying dilute 

If you want lilacs in the mix both have to carry choc and dilute , but you will also get blue, choc and lilac ... 

You get the same using a Chocolate stud that carriers dilute 

Remember ... Blue is dilute of black
Cream is dilute of red
Lilac is dilute of choc


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> Dont think youv got enough pms,i know someone with a nice seal boy not sure on the distance though.
> 
> Even a black self carrying colourpoint could be an option if you want some sealpoints.


I wonder if we are thinking the same person lol


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Cosmills said:


> I wonder if we are thinking the same person lol


possibly hes got titles hasnt he.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> possibly hes got titles hasnt he.


Yup .... Think he is blood B tho ... Risk as queen is Ab


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Cosmills said:


> Yup .... Think he is blood B tho ... Risk as queen is Ab


Ah..am not keeping up.Unless op wanted to feed kittens for 16 hour after birth not ideal but an option.

Plenty of studs out there though to choose from from decent breeders.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> Ah..am not keeping up.Unless op wanted to feed kittens for 16 hour after birth not ideal but an option.
> 
> Plenty of studs out there though to choose from from decent breeders.


Seal boys ??


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Cosmills said:


> Seal boys ??


i can think of another ..Dixy--- he looks nice prob an A tolympic dream.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> <snip>
> I think to use a nice boy is a good start i dont go on show wins champion stud,cause a champ stud doesnt mean show quality kittens as 2 non show quality cats could produce a show cat swings and round abouts really.


I wouldn't use a stud who is being shown without getting at least his first title, or who has great difficulty in getting one. And I would be very wary of using a stud who isn't being shown.

And whilst some plain cats do throw good type kittens, breeding good type cats increases the chances in my view.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

OrientalSlave said:


> I wouldn't use a stud who is being shown without getting at least his first title, or who has great difficulty in getting one. And I would be very wary of using a stud who isn't being shown.
> 
> And whilst some plain cats do throw good type kittens, breeding good type cats increases the chances in my view.


Im on the fence there OS,iv got a boy here who i feel would do very very well in shows the thing is hes not all that manageable he likes all four feet firmly on the floor i struggle to get him into a carrier he would never beable to go to a show due to this hes too powerful.Hes perfect type,perfect markings just bit shy,basically he wasnt handled enough when young to get used to it,i didnt get him till he was adult,he gives very nice kittens though.


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## munchkinpie (Oct 20, 2011)

I agree wlbsh not every cat like being shown mooses dad was stunning and ever so typee but didn't like to be shown, I wouldn't rule out a cat with type just because he wasnt shown.


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## GRACE555 (Jul 18, 2013)

Thanks for all your replys. i was going to go to the supreme but am booked to judge dogs in south wales that day . and the 9th november when the cp show is im in scotland so the best two i will miss.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> And I would be very wary of using a stud who isn't being shown.


I wouldn't be happy using a stud who was forever on the show bench exposed to the risk of picking up all sorts of infection. By the time a boy is proven as a stud and open to visiting queens he should be retired from the bench with the red on the ped already in place if that's what's important.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I wouldn't rule out a cat with type just because he wasnt shown


Nor would I. At some point if you're breeding you need to trust your own judgement and take some responsibility.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

havoc said:


> I wouldn't be happy using a stud who was forever on the show bench exposed to the risk of picking up all sorts of infection. By the time a boy is proven as a stud and open to visiting queens he should be retired from the bench with the red on the ped already in place if that's what's important.


Very much agree with Havoc there.

My priority nowadays (having had a couple of not so good experiences in the distant past) is does the stud owner have clean, secure, separate accommodation for visiting queens and are they going to make use of that by doing supervised matings? Some stud owners seem to feel it's acceptable to leave a queen with a stud "once she is settled" and, if you're lucky, witness a mating when they've popped out to feed/clean.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

There's no blood typing risk if the girl is AB and the boy is B. The biggest risk is with B queens feeding A kittens, not the other way around.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

carly87 said:


> There's no blood typing risk if the girl is AB and the boy is B. The biggest risk is with B queens feeding A kittens, not the other way around.


Is this not incorrect Carly .... The B kits from this mating might survive on the first or second mating ... There is a risk of KFS


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Cosmills said:


> Incorrect Carly .... The B kits from this mating might survive on the first or second mating ... There is a risk of KFS


There are some information sources online that suggest this mating will cause NI but no breeder I have ever known has ever experienced a problem and I, myself, have done countless matings of cats with these blood group and have never lost a kitten.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> Im on the fence there OS,iv got a boy here who i feel would do very very well in shows the thing is hes not all that manageable he likes all four feet firmly on the floor i struggle to get him into a carrier he would never beable to go to a show due to this hes too powerful.Hes perfect type,perfect markings just bit shy,basically he wasnt handled enough when young to get used to it,i didnt get him till he was adult,he gives very nice kittens though.


Do his kittens do well when shown? How do you manage if he has to go to the vets? I'd be wary of using a stud who was too intractable to be shown. Stud's personality is very important.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> There are some information sources online that suggest this mating will cause NI but no breeder I have ever known has ever experienced a problem and I, myself, have done countless matings of cats with these blood group and have never lost a kitten.


Personally as a new breeders I would not medal with the different blood groups... I have know this not to be the case.. Bad luck you may say

Personally I would not take the risk just because someone has done it before , but that's just my personal view ... Until is proven within my own breeding program I will stick with what they say


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

havoc said:


> I wouldn't be happy using a stud who was forever on the show bench exposed to the risk of picking up all sorts of infection. By the time a boy is proven as a stud and open to visiting queens he should be retired from the bench with the red on the ped already in place if that's what's important.


I wouldn't either, but having been show pre-screens for me, and I can read the reports. Depending who has written it they can be very useful.

I can 'use my own judgement' though quite how good it is after all the driving to see a stud is another matter. Not sure how well stud owner would take to me attempting to check the stud's bite either.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I can 'use my own judgement' though quite how good it is after all the driving to see a stud is another matter.


It HAS to be good. It HAS to be what you rely on. Show reports are just another individual's opinion. Some judges can like one look and some another. However far the drive is I don't want a queen here if their owner can't be bothered to check me (and my stud boy) out first. What are you going to do if you go with your calling queen to stud and it turns out to be a filthy hovel? Would you leave her there because a judge once wrote the boy up nicely?


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## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

I have my own boys now but did use quite a few other peoples stud boys in previous years.

Both my boys have made CH in straight shows but that doesn't mean everyone of their kittens is what I would call a stunner....in fact have had some real surprise ones pop up!!!! So is the unpredictability of genetics and as already said you need to look objectively at your queen and her good and not so good points to get the best possible chance of improving in the next generation.

I always looked at the the offspring of boys I was considering using....also interested in cats further back in the pedigree particularly looking for any health or genetic issues that are known in the lines. For both these reasons older established studs were usually my choice as lots of breeding history to go on.

Breeder knowledge and stud owner knowledge is priceless and someone who really knows their stuff in the breed may be able to recommend a boy you may not have thought of yourself and may also be able to tell you which lines are just not a good match as sometimes seems to happen. 

One of the first studs I used I had to take my girl through for an inspection before I was granted the OK to use him.....she passed muster and it was a lovely litter. I was also able to see him in his environment and meet him too - this was in the days before internet so probably wouldn't happen now as we can just send pics and pedigrees to each other but it meant by the time I took my girl through we had already established a good relationship, I found stud owner very knowledgable and supportive and it meant we had already agreed all terms etc.

Hope this helps,


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> this was in the days before internet so probably wouldn't happen now as we can just send pics and pedigrees to each other


Pictures over the internet aren't good enough. You can't SMELL the accommodation in a picture.



> Breeder knowledge and stud owner knowledge is priceless


It is. I chat through plans with people wanting to use my boy at least two generations ahead. Are they looking for a show stopper straight off or are they looking to keep a girl and if so where would they think of going with her? What you're aiming for doesn't always happen in one generation and if it does the subsequent generation could be disappointing if you don't think it through.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

carly87 said:


> There's no blood typing risk if the girl is AB and the boy is B. The biggest risk is with B queens feeding A kittens, not the other way around.





gskinner123 said:


> There are some information sources online that suggest this mating will cause NI but no breeder I have ever known has ever experienced a problem and I, myself, have done countless matings of cats with these blood group and have never lost a kitten.


yes every breeder iv spoken to have said the same. This part on Dr Addies site has been brought up a few times.


OrientalSlave said:


> Do his kittens do well when shown? How do you manage if he has to go to the vets? I'd be wary of using a stud who was too intractable to be shown. Stud's personality is very important.


Iv shown one of his daughters and she did alright she was around 4 months old iv not shown her since but shes not fazed by my much,theres 2 members on here with kittens out this same litter and iv been told they are very outgoing cats not scared of nothing etc,the mum has an outstanding personality so clearly rubbed off on them.My boy isnt a bad cat he loves strokes he just wont be picked up.

Getting to the vets is a big problem it takes 2 to get him into a carrier,but we manage luckily we dont have to do this much.


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## GRACE555 (Jul 18, 2013)

Than you all for your replies.at least i am on the right track/i would not even think of useing anyones stud with out first checking him out and possibly visiting him .i think i would stick to the same blood group at first, iam looking to breed something to show with my own prefix.i have a minds eye view of what i like and diss like. so i will carry on looking and learning once again thanks all


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## tincan (Aug 30, 2012)

Aye here's a couple Sara , approx three weeks ago ...

Absolutely bombproof is Molly , big chunky fluffball .... Super girl


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

havoc said:


> It HAS to be good. It HAS to be what you rely on. Show reports are just another individual's opinion. Some judges can like one look and some another. However far the drive is I don't want a queen here if their owner can't be bothered to check me (and my stud boy) out first. What are you going to do if you go with your calling queen to stud and it turns out to be a filthy hovel? Would you leave her there because a judge once wrote the boy up nicely?


Err... I do check with other breeders! I do also realise that show reports are the judges opinion, that some judges prefer one look and others a different look. Some reports are not worth the paper they are written on. Who the judge is matters. But I've been involved in showing Orientals for long enough (including some stewarding) to know which judges I value and which I pass by.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Here another one.. Sapphire is totally bomb proof ... I can do anything with this girl... Belly kisses .. Bath time the works , no problems at all


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Ok, could someone spell this out for me? How are you at risk of KFS by mating those two blood groups? I thought AB was a blood group that couldn't be fully tested for yet, so am assuming that CM is referring to AB meaning A, carrier of B? Perhaps that's where the confusion is coming in? But if she's A, carrier of B, then there is simply no risk to kittens mating that queen with a B stud as I see it.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

tincan said:


> View attachment 124977
> 
> 
> View attachment 124978
> ...





Cosmills said:


> Here another on... Sapphire is totally bomb proof ... I can do anything with this girl... Belly kisses .. Bath time the works , no problems at all


  thanx you 2, made me smile those did there looking super


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

carly87 said:


> Ok, could someone spell this out for me? How are you at risk of KFS by mating those two blood groups? I thought AB was a blood group that couldn't be fully tested for yet, so am assuming that CM is referring to AB meaning A, carrier of B? Perhaps that's where the confusion is coming in? But if she's A, carrier of B, then there is simply no risk to kittens mating that queen with a B stud as I see it.


I think its an A carrying b girl to b stud carly been talked.I believe why people think there is a risk it due to this info on addies site>
Quote 
A carrying b queen x b stud,
Half of the kittens are blood type A, and half are blood group B. Since the queen is blood type A, the type A kittens are at no risk, but the blood group B kittens are at slight risk. However, queens with blood group A have less anti-type B antibody than blood group B queens have anti-group A antibody, so the type B kittens of a first or even second mating of this pair might survive.

Iv been told though by other breeders an b stud can go with any girl without issues.


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## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

havoc said:


> Pictures over the internet aren't good enough. You can't SMELL the accommodation in a picture.
> 
> It is. I chat through plans with people wanting to use my boy at least two generations ahead. Are they looking for a show stopper straight off or are they looking to keep a girl and if so where would they think of going with her? What you're aiming for doesn't always happen in one generation and if it does the subsequent generation could be disappointing if you don't think it through.


Totally agree with the SMELL comment! .....agree with everything else too! The most useful coffee's I ever had were usually in the stud house, giving the boy a stroke while I picked the brains of someone wonderful who knew all the answers to all the important questions....and then some!


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

carly87 said:


> Ok, could someone spell this out for me? How are you at risk of KFS by mating those two blood groups? I thought AB was a blood group that couldn't be fully tested for yet, so am assuming that CM is referring to AB meaning A, carrier of B? Perhaps that's where the confusion is coming in? But if she's A, carrier of B, then there is simply no risk to kittens mating that queen with a B stud as I see it.


Nope. Referring to Ab. A carrying b recessive

Not AB ...

Their has been cases of the B type kittens fading from this mating .. Yes plenty of you have done it and had no issues but am sorry am sticking to my guns . Lucky for me all my lot are B so at this present time I have no need to mix blood groups


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> thanx you 2, made me smile those did there looking super


She is a whopper ... OH took her to the vets today , don't worry nothing wrong just to clip her claws as I cannot get her in the right position with my back .... She weighed in at 4 75kg .. Think this little girl is taking after daddy


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Cosmills said:


> She is a whopper ... OH took her to the vets today , don't worry nothing wrong just to clip her claws as I cannot get her in the right position with my back .... She weighed in at 4 75kg .. Think this little girl is taking after daddy


not bad cm isshe still a good eater?..not fussy?


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> not bad cm isshe still a good eater?..not fussy?


Gone off NI beef but apart from that anything goes ... Chicken hearts tonight.. Yummy lol ... She needs to talk to the other two lol


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Ah, my software doesn't pick up on capitals, so Ab and AB to me are pretty much the same thing when it's read back.

Iwas under the impression, as given by many, many breeders, that B studs were Ok to A queens, but hey ho, different strokes for different folks.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

carly87 said:


> Ah, my software doesn't pick up on capitals, so Ab and AB to me are pretty much the same thing when it's read back.
> 
> Iwas under the impression, as given by many, many breeders, that B studs were Ok to A queens, but hey ho, different strokes for different folks.


I thought it might be your software Carly ... Lol .... Yes strokes and folks and all that jazz ....


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> I find that going to shows helped - I was able to see Rudi before I committed to taking Lola to him, plus his owner saw Lola. It can also sometimes help get a meeting with a cat that's at 'closed stud'.


Showing opens doors, allows people to see you are serious rather than breeding just for the pet market. 
Many 'closed studs' are closed to the unknown, someone who comes recommended by others or who takes the time to know other breeders can easily have access to those boys.



OrientalSlave said:


> I'd be wary of using a stud who was too intractable to be shown. Stud's personality is very important.


So would I, but I also don't like adults being onsold. It's a move many byb's use over here for an instant set up instead of retiring the cats to a pet home.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

spotty cats said:


> Showing opens doors, allows people to see you are serious rather than breeding just for the pet market.
> Many 'closed studs' are closed to the unknown, someone who comes recommended by others or who takes the time to know other breeders can easily have access to those boys.
> <snip>


Very true. I've met at least one breeder who has 'closed' against all the studs on her website, but peope she's met showing (I mean people showing their cats) can get to take them to her studs. They put 'closed' to avoid being inundated with a lot of enquiries they will turn down.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

spotty cats said:


> <snip>
> So would I, but I also don't like adults being onsold. It's a move many byb's use over here for an instant set up instead of retiring the cats to a pet home.


A bit daft of anyone to sell or rehome a former breeding cat without neutering it... But I guess you are talking BYB to BYB.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> A bit daft of anyone to sell or rehome a former breeding cat without neutering it... But I guess you are talking BYB to BYB.


Yes, sold on with full knowledge they'll continue being bred from.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

spotty cats said:


> Yes, sold on with full knowledge they'll continue being bred from.


A friend of mine did that quite a few years ago but with the knowledge & consent of her cat's breeder. The cat had a litter of 7 for her new owner but we don't know what happened after that, except it looks like they stopped breeding.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Very true. I've met at least one breeder who has 'closed' against all the studs on her website, but peope she's met showing (I mean people showing their cats) can get to take them to her studs.


If I'm reading this right then this stud owner will allow anyone with a cat on the bench to use her stud but nobody who doesn't show. In my experience that really isn't an indication of an owner. I had call recently to visit the house of a BIG name in the show world. The litter trays were spattered with dried faeces and the smell was such that I was 'tasting' it all the way home. I had my husband meet me in my driveway with my dressing gown when I got home so I could strip off in the garage and put everything I was wearing straight in the bin. There's no way I'd want cats from that household visiting my boy.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Yuck ..... I really cannot understand why people live and keep thier cats in conditions like that or keep spraying stud boys in thier homes .. My boy does not spray but by hell do I know when he has visited one of the litter trays for a wee ... The tray is emptied and scrubbed within minutes. ... My cattery is power washed and hoovered every Saturday ... How long does it take ... Not smelly cats, smelly owners .... I think I need a shower just thinking about it


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I think I need a shower just thinking about it


I scrubbed myself raw 
Can't possibly explain how well thought of this person is in the show world.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

havoc said:


> If I'm reading this right then this stud owner will allow anyone with a cat on the bench to use her stud but nobody who doesn't show. In my experience that really isn't an indication of an owner. I had call recently to visit the house of a BIG name in the show world. The litter trays were spattered with dried faeces and the smell was such that I was 'tasting' it all the way home. I had my husband meet me in my driveway with my dressing gown when I got home so I could strip off in the garage and put everything I was wearing straight in the bin. There's no way I'd want cats from that household visiting my boy.


You are not reading it right. She won't take anyone who is showing, she took a few who weren't, but she used 'closed' to greatly reduce the stud enquiries and the best way to meet her was at shows.

You seem determined that showing and having a stud are incompatible (they are not), and also seem to be on the verge of tarring eveyone who shows a stud with the same feather as the one you happened to visit.

Showing doesn't mean people keep their cats badly - there is absolutely no correlation. Suspect there's more likely to be one with BYBs.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> You seem determined that showing and having a stud are incompatible (they are not).


I know I sound more than a touch paranoid but I often wonder if showing is compatible AT all with breeding full stop.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

spotty cats said:


> Showing opens doors, allows people to see you are serious rather than breeding just for the pet market.
> Many 'closed studs' are closed to the unknown, someone who comes recommended by others or who takes the time to know other breeders can easily have access to those boys.
> 
> So would I, but I also don't like adults being onsold. It's a move many byb's use over here for an instant set up instead of retiring the cats to a pet home.





OrientalSlave said:


> A bit daft of anyone to sell or rehome a former breeding cat without neutering it... But I guess you are talking BYB to BYB.


I dont see a problem with breeders selling on their adult boys or girls.Like i mentioned earlier in the thread on of my studs came to me as an adult and im not a byb.There was lots of advantages of been able to purchase him as adult the main one was he could start work straight away and knew his job,plus i could see what he was like looks wise as if buying from kitten its a bit of a lottery.Obviously there are cons too not many but i do wish it was me who had imprinted on him whilst growing maybe he woulnt be as shy who knows.

Iv also bought ex breeding girls too,my last was from a long time breeder who was giving up,the cat had had 1 litter before coming to me and had more to give to her breed shes one of my best cats.Would have been a shame to end her breeding days just cause breeders dont put trust into other newer breeders.

The only other girl who came to me as adult had had 2 litters with her previous breeder and 2 with me then i spayed her and shes now living with an older lady the only cat spoilt very much so.

Its easy to get the tarring brush out but not everyone is irresponsible or a byb.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> I know I sound more than a touch paranoid but I often wonder if showing is compatible AT all with breeding full stop.


I'd love to know why. Surely the point of breeding pedigree cats is to breed a good show cat, otherwise we are breeding registered pets.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> You seem determined that showing and having a stud are incompatible (they are not),


Showing and having a stud used by anyone but the owner can be incompatible. It isn't possible for a cat to be in two places at once and I've known owners take a stud to a show when they have a visiting queen. I've known owners take in a visiting queen when their boy has been on the bench within the previous two weeks. Both are irresponsible and reprehensible as far as I'm concerned. Anyone is entitled to risk infection within their own household if that's what they want but to take money off others in return for exposing them to such risk is not the mark of an honourable person to me.



> I know I sound more than a touch paranoid but I often wonder if showing is compatible AT all with breeding full stop


When someone first approaches me about using my boy one of the things I discuss with them is the need to work out when to temporarily stop showing because I won't take a girl from a household where a cat has been benched within two weeks prior - preferably longer. I won't play the 'one in one out game' either and I leave at least two weeks between girls. Not ONE person has chosen to go elsewhere when I lay down my rules, exactly the opposite. People bring their girls to me/my boy because they know health and welfare are top of my list with the red ink a nice addition only when it doesn't interfere with good practice.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> I'd love to know why. Surely the point of breeding pedigree cats is to breed a good show cat, otherwise we are breeding registered pets.


I'd rather not launch into the many why's and wherefore's. Perhaps with age I've become more cautious but I know some will think that I over-worry. I show nowadays *very* infrequently and always with a degree of trepidation. Several hundred cats in an enclosed area, in very close proximity to one another, being handled multiple times by different people, the stress that that environment causes to a cat... it's just not something I want to do on a regular basis.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Several hundred cats in an enclosed area, in very close proximity to one another, being handled multiple times by different people, the stress that that environment causes to a cat...


I actually quite enjoy shows but all of the above is true. Sometimes I choose to accept the risks - with my eyes wide open. Bring a cat home from a show and it could be brewing anything. Even if it is in robust health and never becomes symptomatic something could be there to be transferred to a mate or others in the household. For this reason I believe that at any given time priority must be given to either showing or breeding.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Just a quick one on blood group incompatibilities:

I have lost kittens when the Sire & Dam were both A carrying b (Ab). These kittens had a horrible death, and all because I foolishly decided I wouldn't hand feed for 24 hours. I knew there was a risk but chose to ignore it :cryin:

This was three years ago. The loss of those kittens still weighs heavily with me, because they died due to MY stupidity. Since then I have ALWAYS hand fed kittens whenever there was the slightest chance of risk and have lost no kittens.

I know of several other breeders who have lost entire litters from Ab queens bred to B studs and Ab x Ab matings.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Tigermoon said:


> Just a quick one on blood group incompatibilities:
> 
> I have lost kittens when the Sire & Dam were both A carrying b (Ab). These kittens had a horrible death, and all because I foolishly decided I wouldn't hand feed for 24 hours. I knew there was a risk but chose to ignore it :cryin:
> 
> ...


Interesting cause i had a litter earlier in the year the mating was A carrying b queen to A carrying b stud,was a litter of 5 and all kittens survived,3 of the kittens i had blood typed and 2 of those were blood type b,this was the queens 2nd litter.

I do wonder if different queens have stronger/lesser antibodies and this could be why some people get problems whilst others dont.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> Interesting cause i had a litter earlier in the year the mating was A carrying b queen to A carrying b stud,was a litter of 5 and all kittens survived,3 of the kittens i had blood typed and 2 of those were blood type b,this was the queens 2nd litter.
> 
> I do wonder if different queens have stronger/lesser antibodies and this could be why some people get problems whilst others dont.


I think you are right there sara ... What works for one will not work for the other ... I will always stick to what the book says ,as if I got it wrong I would never forgive myself .. Am lucky with my lot being the same so don't have to go though it ... YET


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Cosmills said:


> Nope. Referring to Ab. A carrying b recessive
> 
> Not AB ...
> 
> Their has been cases of the B type kittens fading from this mating .. Yes plenty of you have done it and had no issues but am sorry am sticking to my guns . Lucky for me all my lot are B so at this present time I have no need to mix blood groups


Cosmills, I'd never suggest anyone go against what they believe to be the best thing for them/their cats, especially when you've no need to as in your case. I do think it worth bearing in mind though that fading kitten syndrome is a catch all term and has many causes.

I've long thought that some breeders prefer to believe the cause to be blood group incompatibility rather than explore other possible causes, often at great expense via a post mortem, and/or where investigation might uncover something that would curtail a breeding programme or at least seriously affect it. What I'm saying is that when breeders have invested a lot of time, money and energy, many simply don't want to 'dig' and uncover potential problems. Casting my mind back over the last couple of years, I cannot think of a single breeder who, when theyve told me theyve lost kittens (within the first week or so of birth) have gone ahead with a post mortem.

Im not suggesting that a PM should be carried out in every instance where a breeder loses the occasional kitten very infrequently. But equally I have known breeders assume BGI in the absence of any symptoms or where they have misunderstood symptoms, as I have sometimes seen; to lose a whole litter or a good part of a litter without investigating is, to me, folly.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> Cosmills, I'd never suggest anyone go against what they believe to be the best thing for them/their cats, especially when you've no need to as in your case. I do think it worth bearing in mind though that fading kitten syndrome is a catch all term and has many causes.
> 
> I've long thought that some breeders prefer to believe the cause to be blood group incompatibility rather than explore other possible causes, often at great expense via a post mortem, and/or where investigation might uncover something that would curtail a breeding programme or at least seriously affect it. What I'm saying is that when breeders have invested a lot of time, money and energy, many simply don't want to 'dig' and uncover potential problems. Casting my mind back over the last couple of years, I cannot think of a single breeder who, when they've told me they've lost kittens (within the first week or so of birth) have gone ahead with a post mortem.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that a PM should be carried out in every instance where a breeder loses the occasional kitten very infrequently. But equally I have known breeders assume BGI in the absence of any symptoms or where they have misunderstood symptoms, as I have sometimes seen; to lose a whole litter or a good part of a litter without investigating is, to me, folly.


I totally understand we're you are coming from .. And yes there could be other causes to kittens fading and it's just been put down blood groups ... However I sometimes feel that new breeder are being given advice from the older breeders that maybe not be correct or work for the new breeder

The OP is a new breeder , and I also think its better to educate from the book at first than a breeder saying Oh I have done that with no problems too end in her first litter a kittens dead within days ... It would end me that's for sure

Am not staying anyone is right or wrong I just feel both sides of the story should be given


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

we love bsh's said:


> I do wonder if different queens have stronger/lesser antibodies and this could be why some people get problems whilst others dont.


Yes I think your onto something there. Some queens perhaps don't ever have a high antibody level whereas others may start off with a high level or it raises over time.

The litter I lost kittens in, was the queens 4th, and her 3rd from that particular stud. My friend who lost an entire litter was breeding from the queen for the 1st time. The PMs she had done confirmed NI as the diagnosis.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

It's interesting you say this, as there's been another discussion recently about bntibodies, and the concensus there wwas that the antibody level is much more important than the blood type. not sure where this can be tested, how, or how much it will cost though.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

carly87 said:


> It's interesting you say this, as there's been another discussion recently about bntibodies, and the concensus there wwas that the antibody level is much more important than the blood type. not sure where this can be tested, how, or how much it will cost though.


Ooh I missed that discussion 

Certainly the antibodies have a lot to answer for! There is such a lot we just don't know about the problem ... does the level rise in response to being pregnant, for example 

I've not heard anything about testing for antibody levels, I'll ask my vet when I next see him as he seems to have his finger on the pulse


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Tigermoon said:


> Ooh I missed that discussion
> 
> Certainly the antibodies have a lot to answer for! There is such a lot we just don't know about the problem ... does the level rise in response to being pregnant, for example
> 
> I've not heard anything about testing for antibody levels, I'll ask my vet when I next see him as he seems to have his finger on the pulse


I hate it when people tell half a 'story' because they can't remember the rest... and I'm just about to do that  I recall having a conversation with a couple of breeders on the continent (Europe, but I can't remember where) who said that whilst it wasn't exactly common, a fair number of breeders titre tested queens to check antibody levels when carrying out certain blood group matings and there was also mention of a definite 'level' where it was considered safe (or otherwise) for queens to feed kittens from birth. That would seem far preferable to depriving kittens of colostrum.

I'll have to get my thinking cap on now... or re-ask on the group where I had that conversation


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Now that information I'd love to have!


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Challenge of the week GS. Get the full story  I do find the topic very interesting and too here what others have to say


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