# Diarrhea AGAIN!?!



## TennoAkita (Jul 28, 2012)

Kuma has it again!

It's only been a few weeks, say 4, since he got over the last bout.

He was trying to wake us for attention this morning but didn't go to the door when he got us up so we just thought he was hungry He had his breakfast and an hour later we get up to find a suprise on th ebalcony which we left open for him!

Half formed and liquidy. Cleaned it up and took him out for a walk and he went again. It was like a tap turning on. 

Got him home and I had to go pick up the kids. By the time we got back, about 2 hours or so later he had gone again! He tried to make it to the toilet at least lol as it was right outside in the corridor.

This was more or less completely liquid. 

I don't get whats wrong with him. He has had loads of tests done the last time as it lasted 2 weeks. Everything seems to have come at once!! We are now starving him until Sunday morning. Then we'll to the old boiled rice and grilled chicken. We have some pro kolin left which we will give him from then too.

I'm really feeling for him at the moment as to do this in the house is probably his biggest no no and he feels so ashamed of it being an Akita lol. He came bolting out of the front door when I opened it. I knew straight away what had happened. It took a few minutes to reassure him and get him back in


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## PennyGSD (Apr 16, 2012)

Give him the ProKolin now. It'll help to firm up anything left in his system and make him more comfortable.

I have to say, sounds like a typical food intolerance issue to me.


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## TennoAkita (Jul 28, 2012)

Only difference is that we put him on the senior version of his brand of food recently (barking heads) but he's been on it for over a week now and it was introduced slowely. I had noticed his stools were a bit softer every so often but I may just be over thinking things.
Otherwise he has a normal appetite as he came rushing in when I was eating my lunch lol.

Something else that may be worth considering is my wife has an unpset tummy also since this morning. She gave him some of the roast beef my mother inlaw sent over last night which we had too. Also he had some chicken in his main meal which we had eaten aswell.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

PennyGSD said:


> Give him the ProKolin now. It'll help to firm up anything left in his system and make him more comfortable.
> 
> I have to say, sounds like a typical food intolerance issue to me.


Yes I agree, sounds like food intolerance to me as well. That's what usually happens about every 4 - 6 weeks in my experience.


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## TennoAkita (Jul 28, 2012)

PennyGSD said:


> Give him the ProKolin now. It'll help to firm up anything left in his system and make him more comfortable.
> 
> I have to say, sounds like a typical food intolerance issue to me.


I posted again just after you. Could it be the new food? He's only been on it a little over a week though. Wouldn't explain the one from a few weeks back though.


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## TennoAkita (Jul 28, 2012)

Twiggy said:


> Yes I agree, sounds like food intolerance to me as well. That's what usually happens about every 4 - 6 weeks in my experience.


So what are our options?

Also this has all been going on since we started adding omega 3, vit a, glucosomine, msm, chondroitin to his diet. He was actually fine before we started this stuff come to think of it.


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## TennoAkita (Jul 28, 2012)

He's gone two more times and just now on his walk he has been throwing up a yellow frothy substance. He's thrown up one main bit and has wretched three times more with little or nothing! What is this????


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## CaliDog (Jun 3, 2012)

TennoAkita said:


> He's gone two more times and just now on his walk he has been throwing up a yellow frothy substance. He's thrown up one main bit and has wretched three times more with little or nothing! What is this????


i really don't know what it could be but if your unsure If he is throwing up too i would give the vet a quick ring just to ease your mind and see what they advise i would push fluids with him too to avoid dehydration


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

How old is he and how long has he been having bouts of diarrheoa? Why does he need the supplements - arthritis?


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## TennoAkita (Jul 28, 2012)

Twiggy said:


> How old is he and how long has he been having bouts of diarrheoa? Why does he need the supplements - arthritis?


He is 8. 9 in November. He takes supplements for Spondylosis and the associated arthritis in his spine. He's also been having onsior nightly as well as ear infection treatment which he has more or less stopped for a day now.

He had a bout at the beginning of July which lasted for approx 2 weeks with some almost normal stools here and there during that two weeks.

He seems fine now and is extremely hungry obviously. He keeps coming upto us. He's trying to make us feel guilty so we feed him I think.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Was he on antibiotics a course of antibiotics can often cause the squits.

Also how long as he been on the onsior now? Has the vet done blood tests and checked his liver enzymes if he has been on them awhile, athough Onsior is said to be easier on the stomach then other NSAIDs they should still be monitored in an older dog with regular blood tests really and they still need to be given with food never on a empty stomach especially, as they can cause stomach upsets and even ulceration. They should not be given with steroids or other types of NSAIDs

Was he on other Non steroidal anti anflammatorys before these too? if he was, on them for awhile could be those. One of mine was on Rimadyl she used to often get bouts of colitis. Diarhoea with muscos and even spots of blood in it after being on them for awhile.


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## totallypets (Dec 30, 2011)

TennoAkita said:


> He's gone two more times and just now on his walk he has been throwing up a yellow frothy substance. He's thrown up one main bit and has wretched three times more with little or nothing! What is this????


Bringing up bile (frothy yellow liquid) is because he has an empty stomach. As said by PennyGSD you should give him the ProKolin now. Add it to a little scrambled egg, rice, pasta, white fish or plain skinless chicken. This should help with the bile issue.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Hi, I've not followed the whole story and I know Kuma has other issues but thought this may be worth a mention.

Heidi had an ongoing tum upset in her first year. It kept recurring and I couldnt clear it. Sometimes she would be ok for a couple of months and then it was back again.

I dropped kibble and put her onto wet food - problem solved. Not 100% sure why but my thinking is that kibble is hard to digest and for a tum made sensitive from recurring upsets, even harder. I tried soaking it, mixing with wet etc but when I dropped it altogether, she got better. I also gave her Bionic Biotics which helped tremendously.

Hope Kuma is better soon


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## toryb (Jul 11, 2011)

Poor Kuma 

We have had a very similar issues with kibble like mum2heidi we tried a number of different kibbles and introduced them slowly and then everytime a few weeks into it we got tummy issues...we always get the yellow bile if Millie gets hungry so I give her regular snacks to stop it. 

I would have been tempted to put her on an all wet diet but its expensive so we chose to switch her to raw...fingers crossed everything is good at the moment but we are only 2 weeks in..


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## TennoAkita (Jul 28, 2012)

Kuma was started on tramadol and rymadil I believe back in July.

He's had tramadol for the pain again. He was given a 10 day course but I stopped after a week as the vet said to do so. This was a few weeks ago. With that he was put on onsior . Tamadol morning and night onsior just at night. He's been given a months worth of Onsior and has 6 tablets left. He is not having one tonight due to these problems. 

He was the other week given nisamox for a ear infection. The last tablet was two days ago. 

The onsior I'd always wait until last thing to give to him as the vets didn't specify with food. I thought this would last him better in regards to pain longer in the night so he could rest well. It would have been 4 or 5 hours after eating, so yes on an empty stomach! 

He has had pro Kolin. It was and hour or two after this that he threw up.

His Diarreah did seem to have some slimey mucous type "feel" I say feel as when I was cleaning up the ones indoors it seemed to feel slimey when I was cleaning it. Can't say I noticed that it looked like it had mucous in it. The others since dont seem that way. 

I did spot some very tiny spotting in the pool he left out side a couple of hours ago.None since.

I wonder sled dog hotel if it's the build up. ?

I think I'll be taking him off completely for a while.

I'll give him plain grilled chicken on Sunday morning and continue the pro kolin with it. I'll introduce rice in his eve meal. I've ordered some more pro kolin as it seems to be quite good to have handy.

My wife says Sunday morning is too far away but going buy the fact he's needed to go out every two hours for a poo since early this afternoon I'd say he needs a proper starve day. Just pro kolin.

They took blood the last time he was in for the spondylosis and said everything was fine.

p.s. he has been on kibble all his life, with additions of wet food. Or cooked chicken etc (never any bone). Could he develop a problem now?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Just looked up Nisamox and this is what it says
Hypersensitivity reactions unrelated to dose can occur with these agents. Gastrointestinal symptoms (diarrhoea, vomiting) may occur after administration of the product. Allergic reactions (e.g. skin reactions, anaphylaxia) may occasionally occur.
In case of occurrence of allergic reaction, the treatment should be withdrawn.
Full Nisamox Manufacturers leaflet
Nisamox | Nisamox Tablets | Nisamox for Dogs | Nisamox 250mg | Nisamox Cat

Looked up Rimadyl as well manufacturers leaflet
Important Safety Information: RIMADYL is a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory medication available only by prescription through your veterinarian. As with other NSAID-class medications, signs of RIMADYL intolerance may include appetite loss, vomiting and diarrhea, which could indicate side effects involving the digestive tract, liver or kidneys. Some of these side effects may occur without warning and, in rare situations may be serious, resulting in hospitalization or even death. If these signs occur, discontinue RIMADYL therapy and consult your veterinarian. Click here for full prescribing information.
RIMADYL & METACAM's dangers and side effects, dog drugs and treatments in the spotlight.
You can get to the above full leaflet from the link on this one

This is what the manufacturers leaflet says for onsio

4. INDICATION(S)
For the treatment of pain and inflammation of chronic osteoarthritis in dogs.
5. CONTRAINDICATIONS
Do not use in dogs suffering from stomach ulcer or with liver disease.
Do not use together with other non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) or corticosteroids, medicines commonly used in the
treatment of pain, inflammation and allergies.
Do not use in case of hypersensitivity to robenacoxib or to any of the ingredients of the tablets.
Do not use in pregnant or lactating bitches because the safety of robenacoxib has not been established during pregnancy and lactation or
in dogs used for breeding.
6. ADVERSE REACTIONS*
Adverse reactions of the digestive tract were reported very commonly, but most cases were mild and recovered without treatment.
Vomiting and soft faeces were very common, decreased appetite and diarrhoea were common, and blood in the faeces was uncommon.
In dogs treated up to 2 weeks no increases in liver enzyme activities were observed. However, with long-term treatment increases in liver
enzyme activities were common. In most cases the liver enzyme activities either stabilised or decreased with continued treatment.
Increases in liver enzyme activities associated with symptoms of anorexia, apathy or vomiting were uncommon.
Full Onsior leaflet link
http://www.onsior.com/docs/Onsior_Dog_Package_Leaflet.pdf

It also says do not use with other NDAIDs, steroids, medicines used in the treatment of pain inflammation and allergies, Well Tramadols another pain killer.

Colitis that bella used to get on Rimadyl from time to time, was diarrhoea, with a mucos (jelly like slimy substance) and sometimes flecks of blood in it Colitis is inflammation of the colon.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Just checked on tramadol and apparently according to this site it is compatible with cox inhibitor anti inflammatories and Onsior is a cox inhibitor NSAID, so taking that particular type with Tramadol seems in fact OK.

However it does say that stomach upsets are occasionally observed with Tramadol.
Tramadol


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Had this with our first Mal Marty, pure water for weeks and nothing helped til we changed him to a raw diet. No problems ever since and changed Bruce and Britches over to raw then as well. Now, seven years on and all my six dogs have raw and never have diarrhoea. If it's food intolerance it's hard to distinguish what it is with commercial food and additives where as with raw there are no additives at all. You could try raw starting with chicken mince, legs, wings, carcasses etc and see if that helps. It should end the diarrhoea within days if it's a food allergy.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

TennoAkita said:


> p.s. he has been on kibble all his life, with additions of wet food. Or cooked chicken etc (never any bone). Could he develop a problem now?


I would say "yes" that's quite possible. I have no knowledge re the effects of meds etc. but can comment re my experience with Heidi. Once her tum was made sensitive by the upset (in your case it could be the meds), kibble became an aggrevant. Up to that point she had been having an all kibble diet. I'm not sure if it was the cause. But certainly once her tum was aggrevated, it became a problem.

May be worth taking Kuma off kibble or at least soaking it first to make the digestion process a bit easier.


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## porchpotty (Aug 3, 2011)

Have you taken your dog to the vet so that he could recommend another puppy food and determine his sensitivity? Soon as he would be on a new dog food brand, then proper monitoring is needed.


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## TennoAkita (Jul 28, 2012)

Kuma is 8. Not sure why he would need a Puppy food.

It looks to be the tablets. He has been on so many and it would tie in with when he started taking the nisamox as his stools have been getting softer slowely since then. He's off it all now and he won't eat until tomorrow morning. However my wife wants to know if that's too long to starve him as he last ate on Friday morning. I personally think that as it was so bad the longer the better. Ill start with just grilled chicken on Sunday morn the. Add rice in the evening, does this sound ok? 

He is still his normal self. A bit down. It I guess you would be. He is. Dry hungry and my wife hopes he doesn't think we are punishing him for going in the house.


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## TennoAkita (Jul 28, 2012)

Oh and thank you Sled Dog Hotel. A lot of useful info in your post.

So far today he has been on a walk and only a tiny sludge/slime poo came out. Barely noticed it to be honest and I was looking at him as he done it. He wasn't desperate to go like he has been yesterday. Yesterday he'd go within a minute of going out.

Today it took him a good 10-15mins of a walk before he needed to go. Which is normal for him.


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## PennyGSD (Apr 16, 2012)

A lot of newer advice is not to completely starve dogs anymore, but I guess you're best being guided by what's coming out of him. If it's still frequent despite not having eaten anything, then maybe sensible to leave him empty, but if you get a few clear hours, then personally I would just keep up with the ProKolin and give him very small regular amounts of an easy to digest mixture, or even try a bit of tinned Chappie for him.

I would however suggest that if you see continued vomiting then it really needs to be the vet sooner rather than later.

And yes, apparently it's very common for dogs to suddenly develop intolerances. I speak from experience of having a dog with an apparently cast iron stomach, who almost overnight became intolerant to absolutely anything but Royal Canin Sensitivity Control.

Hope he gets better soon.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

TennoAkita said:


> Oh and thank you Sled Dog Hotel. A lot of useful info in your post.
> 
> So far today he has been on a walk and only a tiny sludge/slime poo came out. Barely noticed it to be honest and I was looking at him as he done it. He wasn't desperate to go like he has been yesterday. Yesterday he'd go within a minute of going out.
> 
> Today it took him a good 10-15mins of a walk before he needed to go. Which is normal for him.


To be honest I usually only starve for 24 hours maximum, starting the pro kolin as soon as I see a really iffy poop. After a max of 24 hours I then give plain boiled or grilled chicken no skin as thats full of fat and can start them off again. Or white boiled fish no skin (check for the small bones before giving)
With that fresh boiled plain rice. I then keep them on it until completely normal and then for another day to make sure, then back on the normal diet.

The nisamox ABs tends to kill off the good gut bacteria as well as the nasties, so often they are also depleted of the good bacteria that they need for a healthy digestion, but Pro-texin Pro Kolin as well as having pectin and Koalin to help solidify the poops and calm the gut also has a pre and pro biotic in it so helps put back the good gut bacteria.

Might be an idea to carry on with a good pre and pro biotic only for awhile.
One of mine gets loose and iffy tums too in the heat, especially if you feed certain richer meats and foods. My Samoyed was the same couldnt have anything tripe or with tripe in it when it was hot it would make him loose although fine if on other food without tripe.

Ive had Nanuq (the one who can be iffy with heat now) on Bionic Biotic and that seems to have helped a lot. Ive put up the links for that and a couple of other pre and probiotics if you want to have a look.

Probiotic for Dogs | Bionic Biotic | Dog Health Supplement | Pooch and Mutt

YUMPRO BioActiv - Lintbells

Havent used the Yumpro one its fairly new. Pets at home do Bionic Biotic now although my pet shop orders mine for me. Pets at home also do the other yumega products so may even do the Yumpro now as well.

Protexin the makers of Pro-Kolin also do a pro and pre biotic only called pro soluable.
Protexin Companion Animal Pro Soluble for Dogs 150g - £14.94


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

TennoAkita said:


> Oh and thank you Sled Dog Hotel. A lot of useful info in your post.
> 
> So far today he has been on a walk and only a tiny sludge/slime poo came out. Barely noticed it to be honest and I was looking at him as he done it. He wasn't desperate to go like he has been yesterday. Yesterday he'd go within a minute of going out.
> 
> Today it took him a good 10-15mins of a walk before he needed to go. Which is normal for him.


Just keep a check for black tarry looking stools, excessive muscos and red blood flecks in the stools. If you get lots of muscos (clear jelly like substance)
then it is Colitis meaning the guts inflammed. Usually mild doses the pro texin Pro Kolin and the light resting easily digestible diet above sorts it out, but if it doesnt then sometimes they need to see the vet for other meds to clear it up.

Black tarry stools can mean there is bleeding from the upper digestive tract and as he has been on NSAIDs that can cause ulceration as well as collitis thought I would mention it, black tarry stools he does need to see a vet osr a least speak to them as it can be a concern.
Keep a check on his gums too, if they start to look very pale and especially whiteish and he becomes lethargic same too, get him checked out. Sounds like the NSAIDs anti inflammatories have just irritated his gut a bit and it should clear up, but I thought I would just mention more serious signs so you can be aware and just keep an eye on him.


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## TennoAkita (Jul 28, 2012)

Thanks again Sled Dog Hotel, youre a fountain of knowledge! Do you happen to be a vet?

Well it was decided to feed him. He's had nothing come out of him since this morning. He went on another walk and again nothing. My wife was feeling really bad as he was starving! So I decided that since he has been fine he should have a small meal of chicken and a little rice tonight. He has had Pro Kolin morning and night now. He's been out twice since his meal. Not bowel movements and so far no reports of 'accidents' as I'm at work now 

I'll see how he is on his morning walk.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

TennoAkita said:


> Thanks again Sled Dog Hotel, youre a fountain of knowledge! Do you happen to be a vet?
> 
> Well it was decided to feed him. He's had nothing come out of him since this morning. He went on another walk and again nothing. My wife was feeling really bad as he was starving! So I decided that since he has been fine he should have a small meal of chicken and a little rice tonight. He has had Pro Kolin morning and night now. He's been out twice since his meal. Not bowel movements and so far no reports of 'accidents' as I'm at work now
> 
> I'll see how he is on his morning walk.


Dont worry if he doesnt go for a bit, once they have purged themselves with the diarrrhoea and with only the chicken and rice they often dont go for a bit.

In answer to your question No Im not, just a dog anorak


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## TennoAkita (Jul 28, 2012)

Update from the wife:

Kuma has had another meal this am. Also another walk since. He did have a bowl movement. It was in her word illuminous orange and seemed formed. However when she went to pick it up with a bag it was in fact mushy/soft. It also had (again in her words) a gelatatonous substance within it. It's was a darker orange/brown in colour. I am guessing this is mucous?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

TennoAkita said:


> Update from the wife:
> 
> Kuma has had another meal this am. Also another walk since. He did have a bowl movement. It was in her word illuminous orange and seemed formed. However when she went to pick it up with a bag it was in fact mushy/soft. It also had (again in her words) a gelatatonous substance within it. It's was a darker orange/brown in colour. I am guessing this is mucous?


If its clearish and snotty then that is mucos. Poos on chicken and rice can look a bit yellowish in colour but illuminous orange sounds a bit off. It can be a little softer at first so if its formed I wouldnt worry too much, sometimes they are for a bit after a bad bout of diarrhoea and with the easily digestible resting diet too. I usually carry on with resting diet and pro Kolin. Obviously if it gets bad again the mucos contined and especially if it gets worse and gets blood in it and continues to be a really odd colour, then he may well need to see the vet. Sometimes if the colitis gets bed they doo need meds to clear it up.


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## TennoAkita (Jul 28, 2012)

He's had another bowel movement this morning whilst out for his walk. It was yellowy orangey brown in colour. It was not formed this time. Came out more like a cow pat in appearance. Not water but not formed like it was yesterday. I guess it will take time.

What I have been wondering is how much chicken and rice is enough? One breast and a half a cup of rice? More or less?? He usually weighs in at 30-40kg.


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## aky (Nov 6, 2010)

Hi TennoAkita

Just had a quick read and the symptoms your dogs has, the loose stools and vomiting bile is exactly what my akita had.
For my akita it was specific brands, even arden grange would set him off. He would be perfectly fine for long periods then abruptly have loose stools or vomit bile for a few days, but would act perfectly healthy
After years searching for a food that would suit him I have found a good brand, hes been on it for over 2 years and had no loose stools and no vomiting bile.:thumbup:

15kg Prem Salmon Rice

dont no if this food will help but its worth a try, just ask them for a sample.
it has really done wonders for my akita.

hope ur boy gets well soon!


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## PennyGSD (Apr 16, 2012)

When I asked the vet this very question about my dog, during our many, many bouts of upset tummy and my fear of how skinny he was getting, they told me that the ratio of the carb to protein should be 2:1. So if your chicken breast weighs 150g, this should be fed with 300g rice.

And to work out the volume, she suggested going with similar volumes as the tinned prescription sensitivity control diet, as this is the carb/protein volume they contain.

For instance, our 30kg dog should eat 3 x 400g tins each day to maintain normal weight, so requires 1200g cooked weight of food in total.

So 400g chicken, fish, cottage cheese etc, and 800g pasta, rice, potato etc. Note it's cooked weight though.

I would imagine this is far larger a volume than most people feed for temporary upsets. Generally it's only needed for a few days so a little underfeeding won't do too much harm. We had been having issues for about 3 months though so needed to make sure he didn't lose any more weight.

Build up to it slowly of course as you don't want to overload him, but I would suggest he needs a bit more than you've suggested.

I'm not claiming this is 100% accurate by the way, but it's what our vet advised at the time. Saying that, vets aren't exactly renowned for their canine dietary expertise...


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## PennyGSD (Apr 16, 2012)

Is he still having ProKolin by the way? If so, I would personally have expected motions to be a bit more formed. Although the colour sounds pretty normal for chicken and rice. OH and I would regularly report back using an indian takeaway scale - chicken korma to chicken tikka masala 

There is of course the potential for him to have a sensitivity to rice. Ours did, although it took ages to work this out.

Could you try some potato or pasta instead? Potato is probably the safer bet due to the flour and hence wheat/gluten which a lot of dogs are intolerant of.


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## TennoAkita (Jul 28, 2012)

Thanks for the post Aky. I'm not sure it's a food allergy but will keep it in mind.

PennyGSD, thanks for the info. I may try potato, didn't realise it was allowed as its always chicken and rice you hear about. The pro kolin has finished last night. Waiting for an order of more but due the the bank holiday it will be tomorrow it arrives


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## TennoAkita (Jul 28, 2012)

He hasn't been for a number 2 since Monday morning now! One extreme to the other! I'll see if he goes tomorrow morning.


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