# 2 kittens to 1 Placenta??



## Kylyjocoonz

Hi all,

Can anyone help 

We've just had (on Sunday) a lovely litter of babies  though to my surprise & something I've never come across before, 2 babies attached to the same placenta, each with their own umbilical cords??

They are both Silver Tabby, 1 male and 1 female.... Could they actually be twins?? Has anyone heard/had this before?

I love the idea of twins, though may find it harder to find their home as they would just have to stay together... Even if it meant with me  xx


----------



## catcoonz

Yes, ive had this before with my last litter but they didn't turn out to be exactly twins as no 2 tabbies are ever identical, well in my litter they wasn't but maybe in 12 weeks time you can post pics and see if we can tell the difference.


----------



## Kylyjocoonz

Thankyou so much for your reply.... I've never had this so was pretty unsure as to what was happening lol.

They are both Silvers, but to small to see at the mo if stripes are similar  I'm now going to be super excited as they grow... TWINS!! Did you separate yours into new homes? xxx


----------



## Treaclesmum

Male and female twins cannot be identical, but they can be non-identical twins


----------



## Jiskefet

Non-identical twins on a single placenta?
Strange.....
Not what I would expect.....


----------



## Kylyjocoonz

Treaclesmum said:


> Male and female twins cannot be identical, but they can be non-identical twins


I think it's called 'fraternal' if different gender xx


----------



## catcoonz

No I didn't separate them as I found both was firmly attached to each other sleeping, playing etc, so they went to a home together. 

The bond between them was very strong, stronger than I have ever seen in the past with littermates.


----------



## Kylyjocoonz

Jiskefet said:


> Non-identical twins on a single placenta?
> Strange.....
> Not what I would expect.....


I'm eagerly waiting to see now, if markings are the same x


----------



## Kylyjocoonz

catcoonz said:


> No I didn't separate them as I found both was firmly attached to each other sleeping, playing etc, so they went to a home together.
> 
> The bond between them was very strong, stronger than I have ever seen in the past with littermates.


I have a lady waiting for a boy, but think these two will have to stay together! I'd feel terrible separating them xx


----------



## catcoonz

Just found this info:

For cats to be identical twins they have to share one amniotic sac and the umbilical cords merged into one.


----------



## catcoonz

Wait until 6 weeks old, you will then notice the bond is extremely strong, separating may not be the best idea.


----------



## Treaclesmum

Kylyjocoonz said:


> I'm eagerly waiting to see now, if markings are the same x


But seriously, if they were identical, their bits and bobs (i.e. reproductive organs) would be identical too... (i.e. same gender!)


----------



## catcoonz

Sorry, not true, you can have identical twins in brother/sister as I believe its the same dna which makes them twins.


----------



## Treaclesmum

catcoonz said:


> Sorry, not true, you can have identical twins in brother/sister as I believe its the same dna which makes them twins.


But the dna includes the reproductive organs surely?? 

Girl have XX and boys XY

That's what I was taught at school, although brother/sister twins can look very alike, but I don't see how they can be


----------



## catcoonz

xxy can form.

if x is dropped this equals a female, but if y is dropped this equals a male, so yes it is possible.


----------



## Kylyjocoonz

catcoonz said:


> Wait until 6 weeks old, you will then notice the bond is extremely strong, separating may not be the best idea.


They will most definitely not be separated!! I can't wait to watch them grow  xx


----------



## catcoonz

I am very interested to see how these 2 grow. 

Apparently this is rare so will be good to follow them developing.


----------



## gskinner123

The clue is in the word 'identical'  Twins can only be such when they are of the same sex as they form from a single zygote. Fraternal/dizygotic twins form from two eggs fertilised by different sperm.


----------



## Kylyjocoonz

catcoonz said:


> I am very interested to see how these 2 grow.
> 
> Apparently this is rare so will be good to follow them developing.


I will be sure to post updates for you on here... Week to week developments maybe  I wish I'd taken a pic of the placenta and them at birth! I didn't realise it was rare.... Me and my husband were completely shocked! I had to show him because I just couldn't believe my eyes  xx


----------



## catcoonz

ok, educated now, Fraternal twins


----------



## gskinner123

I don't think I'm following you; sorry, not quite with it this evening! A zygote contains either male or female, but never both, genetic material. As identical twins always form from the the same zygote they can only ever be of the same sex and will share the exact same dna.

In human twinning there are a few exceptionally rare cases of the male twin losing a Y chromosome and developing as a female (the cause of Turner Syndrome) but nothing like it has been documented in cats.


----------



## catcoonz

Turner, that's where I am getting confused.

Thank you for clearing that up.


----------



## catcoonz

So now that headache has gone, we are left with 2 beautiful kittens, not identical.

Learn something new every day.


----------



## Kylyjocoonz

They are identically beautiful!!  thankyou so so much for everyone's help xxx


----------



## Jiskefet

catcoonz said:


> Sorry, not true, you can have identical twins in brother/sister as I believe its the same dna which makes them twins.


Identical twins is what the term suggests: identical DNA. One single fertilized egg, meant to produce one baby/kitten, separating into two individual entities at a very early stage. So they will always be the same gender, as their DNA is fully identical.

This is how siamese twins occur. They are identical twins who did not fully separate.

For them to share a placenta, they need to have been in the same amniotic sac, which suggests identical twins. However, if they are a different gender they _cannot_ be identical.


----------



## Kylyjocoonz

Jiskefet said:


> Identical twins is what the term suggests: identical DNA. One single fertilized egg, meant to produce one baby/kitten, separating into two individual entities at a very early stage. So they will always be the same gender, as their DNA is fully identical.
> 
> This is how siamese twins occur. They are identical twins who did not fully separate.
> 
> For them to share a placenta, they need to have been in the same amniotic sac, which suggests identical twins. However, if they are a different gender they _cannot_ be identical.


They were not in the same sack... Just both attached by cord to one placenta xx


----------



## jaycee05

To be identical both twins have to be the same sex as it is one egg that seperates, i have identical twins, 
Cannot be boy and girl


----------



## Guest

Those saying that identical twins have to have the same gender are correct. Fraternal twins are when two separate eggs get fertilized - in this sense, all litter mates are fraternal twins. Fraternal twins are no more similar than any set of siblings.

Identical twins are when one egg gets fertilized, then in the process of dividing itself it splits in to two, and two babies with identical DNA develop. Sometimes the division is not complete and you get conjoined twins (also always identical).

For two babies to share the same placenta, they would have to be identical twins. However, sometimes, if the placentas of fraternal twins implant too close to each other, they may grow one on top of the other, or in to each other making it appear as if it was one placenta with two umbilical cords. The only reason I know this is because this happened to my twins (human). It indeed can cause health issues for one of the babies, so good job that both kittens were okay


----------



## chloe1975

We two kittens sharing a placenta last year. It was Yoda and her bigger sister. Definitely something I had never seen before! I believe they had suffered a form of twin to twin transfusion where one twin takes the nutrients which is why Yoda was only 65g and the other kitten was around 140g. They both did ok and in fact Yoda was (and still is!) the tougher one. She stayed with us but her sister went to a new home which was sad  Since then Yoda latched onto Pickle's daughter Crumble as they were born within a few days of each other and they have been inseparable ever since


----------



## dagny0823

gskinner123 said:


> The clue is in the word 'identical'  Twins can only be such when they are of the same sex as they form from a single zygote. Fraternal/dizygotic twins form from two eggs fertilised by different sperm.


Just what I was about to post. Identical means identical--one egg, one sperm, fertilized egg splits, 2 identical babies. There can't be a boy and a girl from that.

I suppose in a litter where there's one father, then the kittens are all technically fraternal twins, yes? But the sharing of the placenta would show more of a connection (two little eggs, released simultaneously, then paired up on one little placenta) than just sharing a womb.

Edit: Blargh---I see I'm very late to the party and this has been answered by lots of people, so apologies for being pedantic


----------



## Kylyjocoonz

For those of you that helped advise on my two beauties, I just wanted to give you a little update....

They are doing very well indeed, & I'm over the moon with their progression in the week since their arrival.

The lovely little lady (now named Kylyjocoonz Yin) has gone from 82grams at birth (dropping to a worrying 75 on day 2) to 127grams.... Although still small I'm extremely happy .

The handsome little man (now named Kylyjocoonz Yang) has gone from 93 at birth to 160grams 

Yin, Yang & Mummy all doing very well indeed  xxx


----------



## PetloverJo

jaycee05 said:


> To be identical both twins have to be the same sex as it is one egg that seperates, i have identical twins,
> Cannot be boy and girl


Yes and I nearly called him Noel today, oopsy


----------



## jaycee05

Lol, yes it happens often, do you know Noel too , shouldnt have called them by the same initial, i am often told off by Neil for that, causes a lot of confusion, 
I say blame your father, he chose the names


----------



## ALR

We want pics please


----------



## Kylyjocoonz

Hanzel & Gretyl are doing very well indeed, and now have a lovely new home lined up TOGETHER!! Woohoo


----------



## Kylyjocoonz

:thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## dagny0823

They're SO cute and how wonderful they get to stay together!


----------



## Kylyjocoonz

dagny0823 said:


> They're SO cute and how wonderful they get to stay together!


Thankyou!  We're so pleased they'll remain together forever  xx


----------



## catcoonz

Glad they are staying together, are they very close?

Beautiful photo's.


----------



## Kylyjocoonz

catcoonz said:


> Glad they are staying together, are they very close?
> 
> Beautiful photo's.


They don't appear to be any closer than our previous babies... Though they do spend all of their time together (however that could just be down to the fact they only have one another) xx


----------



## sharonbee

It's always nice when kittens can stay together, they are gorgeous, love the photo


----------



## lostbear

Treaclesmum said:


> Male and female twins cannot be identical, but they can be non-identical twins


Wouldn't they have to be the same sex to be on the same placenta? Are you sure it's one of each OP?


----------



## lostbear

catcoonz said:


> Sorry, not true, you can have identical twins in brother/sister as I believe its the same dna which makes them twins.


No - being a twin means that you were gestated (and usually, but not always) born at the same time as your brother or sister.

If two kittens are born in a litter they are twins - three are triplets etc, just like human babies.

I think that what you are wondering is did they come from the same ovum, which is what identical twins do - it's just that the egg splits and starts to form two babies - these are ALWAYS the same sex, because they have been developed from the same egg and the same sperm (sperm decides gender).

Bother and sister twins are always fraternal (i.e. non-identical). Fraternal twins can be wither the same sex or different sexes because they grow and develop from separate ova and sperm. When you think about it, you cannot be identical to someone who is a different sex from you. Identical means _exactly_ the same.

I'm not sure what's happened with your kittens - sounds intriguing, though.


----------



## ForeverHome

catcoonz said:


> Sorry, not true, you can have identical twins in brother/sister as I believe its the same dna which makes them twins.


No you can't. Identical twins are from one egg and sperm which splits into two very early. One sperm can only have one set of genes, which means an X chromosome or a Y chromosome. Identical means all genetic material is identical, which means it's physically impossible to have genetically identical twins of any species of different genders.

Non-identical twins can be different genders.


----------



## lostbear

catcoonz said:


> xxy can form.
> 
> if x is dropped this equals a female, but if y is dropped this equals a male, so yes it is possible.


No - xxy (a double female chromosome) or xyy (double male) CAN happen, but it is very rare.

If your kitten was xxy or xyy it would appear to be a normal male, but its development would either be delayed (xxy) or very rapid (xyy) due to the influence of that extra chromosome. The extra female (x) chromosome would feminise the first kitten) and the extra male  chromosome would exaggerate the maleness of the second one.

The sex chromosomes for females are xx, and for males xy, which is the other way round to what you have said.


----------



## lostbear

Kylyjocoonz said:


> They were not in the same sack... Just both attached by cord to one placenta xx


I wonder if the placentae just grew together if the kittens were very close to each other in utero? There might not have been enough room for the placentae to be distinct and separate if the ova implanted next to one another. Could the placentae merge into one? I honestly don't know (why is there never a vetinary obstetrician on the forum when you need one?)

Can't think of any other way you would get two kittens, different sexes, with apparently a single placenta.


----------



## lostbear

ouesi said:


> Those saying that identical twins have to have the same gender are correct. Fraternal twins are when two separate eggs get fertilized - in this sense, all litter mates are fraternal twins. Fraternal twins are no more similar than any set of siblings.
> 
> Identical twins are when one egg gets fertilized, then in the process of dividing itself it splits in to two, and two babies with identical DNA develop. Sometimes the division is not complete and you get conjoined twins (also always identical).
> 
> For two babies to share the same placenta, they would have to be identical twins. * However, sometimes, if the placentas of fraternal twins implant too close to each other, they may grow one on top of the other, or in to each other making it appear as if it was one placenta with two umbilical cords.* The only reason I know this is because this happened to my twins (human). It indeed can cause health issues for one of the babies, so good job that both kittens were okay


I have just wondered this - hadn't got as far as your post when I speculated it. It's really interesting, isn't it. I wonder if it does lead to them being particularly (emotionally) close to each other?


----------



## lostbear

Kylyjocoonz said:


> Hanzel & Gretyl are doing very well indeed, and now have a lovely new home lined up TOGETHER!! Woohoo
> View attachment 142285


Magical!
...


----------



## OrientalSlave

XXY and XYY occur in humans.

XXY is Klinefelter's Syndrome

Klinefelter syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

XYY doesn't have a specific name and apprently most XYY men don't have the faintest idea about their unusual chromosones.

XYY syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## lostbear

There used to be a TV programme donkey's ages ago called the XYY Man - he was supposed to be super strong and over-sexed, but I can't remember any other details. OrientalSlave's post reminded me of it.

EDIT: Hey - it's online! http://www.ovguide.com/tv/the_xyy_man.htm


----------



## ForeverHome

An XXY cat is the only way you can get a male Tortie, but it's infertile.


----------



## Guest

lostbear said:


> I have just wondered this - hadn't got as far as your post when I speculated it. It's really interesting, isn't it. I wonder if it does lead to them being particularly (emotionally) close to each other?


I only have one set of twins so I wouldnt know what it normal for twin closeness 
But yes, mine have a very sweet relationship, but I dont know if thats because theyre twins or just very compatible personalities. 
As babies they always wriggled to be close to each other, often ending up sleeping forehead to forehead like they were in utero. I do think thats a twin thing.

I will say though, the one placenta growing over the other is not good. We had to play a game of chance figuring out how long to leave the babies in utero. Basically, the bigger the babies got, the more the impaired placenta struggled to keep up. Trying to find that magic balance between the risk of premature birth and the risk of irreparable damage in utero was frankly terrifying. In the end the placentas growing the way they did caused a placental abruption and they had to deliver anyway.


----------



## OrientalSlave

ForeverHome said:


> An XXY cat is the only way you can get a male Tortie, but it's infertile.


It's one way, but not the only way. Another is that that the cat is a chimera which is when two fertilised cells merge very early and develop as one organism - cat or whatever. It can give other unusual things such as a cat which is patches of black & tabby.

Messybeast has lots of fascinating information:

MOSAICS, CHIMERAS & TORTIE TOMCATS

And it mentions somatic mosaicism as yet another way of producing a male tortie:
Mosaic (genetics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Kylyjocoonz

lostbear said:


> Wouldn't they have to be the same sex to be on the same placenta? Are you sure it's one of each OP?


Definitely 1 of each... I think :laugh: x


----------



## lorilianehawk1980

Kylyjocoonz said:


> Hi all, Can anyone help  We've just had (on Sunday) a lovely litter of babies  though to my surprise & something I've never come across before, 2 babies attached to the same placenta, each with their own umbilical cords?? They are both Silver Tabby, 1 male and 1 female.... Could they actually be twins?? Has anyone heard/had this before? I love the idea of twins, though may find it harder to find their home as they would just have to stay together... Even if it meant with me  xx


 My cat bitty just had a litter 12 days ago and she had five kittens and four placentas, the two that shared the same placenta with two umbilical cords are just about identical one male and one female. I'm on here looking to see if it's possible LOL and I seen this so if it's not possible then I'm crazy. .


----------



## OrientalSlave

Identical twins are always the same sex. Suspect the placental merged


----------



## O2.0

OrientalSlave said:


> Identical twins are always the same sex. Suspect the placental merged


This. What appeared to be one placenta was likely two that grew very close together and merged or one grew on top of the other. 
Read the rest of the thread, identical twins have to be the same sex, otherwise they're not identical LOL.


----------

