# Whats the oldest a bitch should have a litter?



## gubean (Dec 5, 2011)

Someone was selling some stunning pups (maltese x yorkie) but they were all gone, she said she also had a maltese in season at the mo who will have their final (3rd) litter before having her spaide? She is 7. Is this too old for healthy pups? I ask because the other one was 2yrs old, they will both have the same father who I think is 4 or 6 years years old. I just want to know that a puppy from a 3rd litter from a seven yr old mum - will it still be healthy or more likely to suffer health problems in the future?
Many thanks


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## cloverfan (May 4, 2011)

Have these dogs had any health tests? Sounds like a bit of a puppy farm to me. Personally I would steer clear.


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## Maiisiku (Feb 20, 2009)

Usually not after 6 years of age. There are more complications that can be present and the likelyhood of deformities and health issues with pups increases with the bitches age.


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## barnchick (Nov 2, 2011)

Has the mother and father got all her breed health checks, as recommended on the KC website for her breed as a basic, are they complete and up to date? It is good that you are asking about the future pups health and shows you are putting some thought into the future. If you don't understand the scoring just ask and someone on here will help you. I don't know these breeds but I am sure someone will be along soon to help.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

gubean said:


> Someone was selling some stunning pups (maltese x yorkie) but they were all gone, she said she also had a maltese in season at the mo who will have their final (3rd) litter before having her spaide? She is 7. Is this too old for healthy pups? I ask because the other one was 2yrs old, they will both have the same father who I think is 4 or 6 years years old. I just want to know that a puppy from a 3rd litter from a seven yr old mum - will it still be healthy or more likely to suffer health problems in the future?
> Many thanks


depends . are the parents health tested , if you are unsure ask the breeder, health testing and vet checking are NOT the same thing. If in doubt ask to see paperwork. Sounds like a BYB to me i'd steer clear if i was you.
7 is not too old to produce a healthy litter of pups providing ALL relevant health checks are carried out.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

There is no age a bitch SHOULD have a litter - but for a healthy bitch who has had previous litters - 7 should not be a problem - one of my girls dam's had two litters at 4 and 7, with no problems at all. (these are however small breeds, and there may be something related to small breeds over and above general health issues which may indicate that this is too old for a litter).

Having said that - there are more fundamental questions to be asked - such as above - have the parents had the relevant health tests - is the breeder ethical.

Unfortunately - there are a lot of unscrupulous breeders out there - and moreso when it comes to cross-breeds.

I don't think it's fair to say that someone having two litters close together is necessarily a puppy mill - sometimes, nature forces a breeders hand - however, I would most definitely err on the side of caution and be sure you are 100% comfortable with the breeder being responsible and ethical before proceeding - and this includes (but not limited to) using any relevant health tests for both breeds.

People will use arguments such as "hybrid vigour" to justify their reason for crosses - but TBH - as many similar type breeds can suffer from the same / related health conditions - the only real time this holds any weight is when talking about 1st generation crosses and recessive genes - and is not a good enough argument in isolation for the cross.


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## gubean (Dec 5, 2011)

Hi,
Some interesting points noted here. The lady I spoke to said that they are family pets, a possible 3rd litter from a 7 yr old doesn't sound like a puppy farm to me, she hasn't mentioned scoring, just said all 4 dogs are hers, mum and dad both very placid and lovely temperaments and used to their children and grandchildren - when they are in season the males go into a cage or get seperated until its over so they are not breeding continuously. She sounds like an amateur wannabe breeder or someone who has family pets and makes a bit of money every now and again. Lots must do it I guess. My idea of a puppy farm I guess is lots of dogs just putting out puppies every 6 months with no care of their health. Am I wrong? Could a puppy farm be a woman in a house with a couple of dogs? Genuine question!


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Maltese are not my breed (and I'm not sure if there is a member who does have Maltese breeding knowledge) but yorkies are, and I know for a yorkie 7 would be old for a litter. They would usually be retired by about 5, maybe 6, and rarely would there be reason for breeding a 7yr old unless she is a champion or truly exceptional in sone way. 
What is the breeder like; how does she view her breedings and her dogs? Were the 'morkies' deliberate- why so? 
There are many other factors along with her age that all need to be considered together to determine if the pups are more or less likely to suffer illnesses.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2011)

gubean said:


> Hi,
> Some interesting points noted here. The lady I spoke to said that they are family pets, a possible 3rd litter from a 7 yr old doesn't sound like a puppy farm to me, she hasn't mentioned scoring, just said all 4 dogs are hers, mum and dad both very placid and lovely temperaments and used to their children and grandchildren - when they are in season the males go into a cage or get seperated until its over so they are not breeding continuously. She sounds like an amateur wannabe breeder or someone who has family pets and makes a bit of money every now and again. Lots must do it I guess. My idea of a puppy farm I guess is lots of dogs just putting out puppies every 6 months with no care of their health. Am I wrong? Could a puppy farm be a woman in a house with a couple of dogs? Genuine question!


I'd think that anyone that had any knowledge of "real" puppy farms wouldn't even think about comparing the two


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Sorry gubean, we were writing at the same time there.
If she breeds to make a little money, I'd say avoid her- she Must be cutting corners; I was minus <£200 on my last litter and that was complication free, and I know I've gotten lucky so far with that.
She wouldn't be a puppymill with do few dogs, but it's not as sime as ethical breeder Or puppymill, there are many breeders in between, and money not health, temperament and conformation being her goal wouldn't put her in the best bracket of breeders.
Have another look around this site, it will help you e able to spot what breeders to avoid and who to support- ad if you look for breed specif sites then you could determine which breed would suit you best (yorkies an Maltese temperamentally very different, so a 'morkie' could be a combination of the best or worse of breed traits- and you will be in love with the pup before you realise he/her doesn't really fit your home).


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

gubean said:


> Hi,
> Some interesting points noted here. The lady I spoke to said that they are family pets, a possible 3rd litter from a 7 yr old doesn't sound like a puppy farm to me, she hasn't mentioned scoring, just said all 4 dogs are hers, mum and dad both very placid and lovely temperaments and used to their children and grandchildren - when they are in season the males go into a cage or get seperated until its over so they are not breeding continuously. She sounds like an amateur wannabe breeder or someone who has family pets and makes a bit of money every now and again. Lots must do it I guess. My idea of a puppy farm I guess is lots of dogs just putting out puppies every 6 months with no care of their health. Am I wrong? Could a puppy farm be a woman in a house with a couple of dogs? Genuine question!


No - she wouldn't be a puppy farm / mill - but she could be a "back yard breeder"

There is no such thing as a "wannabe breeder" if someone breeds, they are a breeder - it doesn't matter whether they have one litter a year or 10 litters a year - or just one litter every 5 years - they are still a breeder - it's the peripheraries that define what type of breeder they are.

If someone is breeding from pets like that for pet purpose - based on what kodakkuki has said about breeding from 7 year old Yorkies - then I would personally be erring on the side of caution.

7 years could be nothing for a fit Lab who has previously and easily whelped and raised a litter - but as I said in my original post, it might be somewhat different for a much smaller or larger breed.


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## gubean (Dec 5, 2011)

The 7 yr old is maltese mum, think the yorkie is 4.
I don't know, am I niaive in thinking that after speaking to her, she seemed very nice and loves her dogs and every now and again she allows her dogs to get together, have some pups and she sells them, is that really bad? 
I'm in the situation in Cornwall where I look for an ad for a puppy and there will be 3 - that's it. I don't want to travel 350 miles for a dog and I can't risk buying without seeing. I thought mixed breeds were a good thing. I really want to do the proper and ethical thing and go to a big "proper" breeder but all I want is a lovely healthy puppy to go to a family home, no shows or anything like that so I don't mind if its not got a pedigree like Sir lancelot of limpbiscuit St John Smyth or something! As long as the mum and Dad are healthy as are the pups from a loving home and the people aren't extortioners looking to make as much from a dog then should it matter whethre they are registered or not? Sorry I'm just getting disallusioned with finding one as its been two months now. I guess Christmas time also is a stupid time to be looking, more unscrupulous people looking to make a quick buck for xmas eve!
We check the ads every day and its the same story - already gone within hours of the ad going live - soo annoying!


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

health testing of the sire and dam is SO important you need to ask the breeder if this is to be done! If not walk away. Finding the right dog can take time. good luck


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

I dont know about ages for breeding but if no health tests are done on either of the dogs i would stay clear, have you given a rescue dog any thought at all??


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

gubean said:


> The 7 yr old is maltese mum, think the yorkie is 4.
> I don't know, am I niaive in thinking that after speaking to her, she seemed very nice and loves her dogs and every now and again she allows her dogs to get together, have some pups and she sells them, is that really bad?
> I'm in the situation in Cornwall where I look for an ad for a puppy and there will be 3 - that's it. I don't want to travel 350 miles for a dog and I can't risk buying without seeing. I thought mixed breeds were a good thing. I really want to do the proper and ethical thing and go to a big "proper" breeder but all I want is a lovely healthy puppy to go to a family home, no shows or anything like that so I don't mind if its not got a pedigree like Sir lancelot of limpbiscuit St John Smyth or something! As long as the mum and Dad are healthy as are the pups from a loving home and the people aren't extortioners looking to make as much from a dog then should it matter whethre they are registered or not? Sorry I'm just getting disallusioned with finding one as its been two months now. I guess Christmas time also is a stupid time to be looking, more unscrupulous people looking to make a quick buck for xmas eve!
> We check the ads every day and its the same story - already gone within hours of the ad going live - soo annoying!


I waited over 18 months for my yellow bitch and 2 years until my yellow boy joined us last year.

Please don't be fooled into thinking someone who 'loves their pets' is enough to warrant them breeding.

These pups you see might be sold quickly - but don't be surprised if

a) a lot of them end up in rescue in a few months looking for homes
b) some of them go on to have debilitating and often life limiting conditions which could have been prevented if the breeders had health tested

I know it's frustrating - but surely you would rather have a pup that you know for a fact the breeder has put EVERYTHING into ensuring that as far as realistically possible, those babies are going to have maximum chance of a long and healthy life rather than getting a pup "because it is available" and finding yourself landed with a whole heap of health problems to deal with.

Having a couple of "pets" and bringing them together is NOT enough.

My next litter will be from my own bitch and (hopefully) resident dog.

They are pets yes, - but they are also shown and in addition to which - simply in bringing both of them to a level when I can breed them together has cost me years of research and around £3000 in bring the dog in and health-test both prospective parents - this does not factor in any of the costs I faced in breeding the bitch in the first place.

Using your own dog is sometimes not the best option because it could come down to "convenience" as opposed most suitable sire for the bitch - as you can see, in my case, it would have been much cheaper to use an outside stud dog (around £1800 cheaper) - so not the cheapest option and for me, one where a lot of thought has gone into it.

I am not saying this is not the case with this breeder, but in truth, I suspect it is unlikely


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

I'd assume the same basic rules apply to Maltese as yorkies where age is concerned. There really is no need to mix the two honestly- they both suffer the same genetic issues. So making sure the pups have the highest chance of being clear and healthy is paramount! May I ask what age she is selling them at?
A big breeder will not be a great breeder- I'd assume you mean people who make a living off the backs of their dogs, so a commercial breeder? Please avoid like the plague with these fragile breeds, please!! They are doing such damage to these beautiful, fantastic breeds, giving them a bad name temperamentwise and almost every yorkie I've met has knee problems and trachea issues which will often need surgery, which is vwry expensive. I had to get my eldest Pet yorkie-he was never bred for health reasons- an op to tighten his soft palate to try and save his throat a little and without being charged for his time (because my vet is awesome!) it cost £450. Had he not passed from a tummy bug because of a weak immune system (possibly inherited), his knees would have been about £1000 to fix. 
For health, which I'm sure is your main concern, you would be best finding a breeder breeding for themselves- wanting to keep a pup to show from the litter. Although, you still need to question them on the health o their dogs, how they raise the pups (they shouldn't let them go until 12 weeks btw) and o course why they bred.
If I was you though, unless a pup is important, there are Many lovely yorkies in shelters ATM- so much so that my pound has agreed to me taking the ones before pts and rehoming myself! Only because we have no breed specific rescue though... Yet. I'd imagine englan has a few? They may have pups as well- a yorkie is still a puppy well into a year old- the first 3 years they mature (on average) 1 month to a human year, so my 11month pup would be equivalent to an 11year old girl- so 15 months only a 15 year old girl etc.
Hope this has cleared a few things up... Sorry if something doesn't make sense- let me know (I'm on my phone ATM, and it keeps 'correcting' me!)


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

forgot to add i know a couple of shi tzu breeders, they dont breed past 5 years old and they very rarely make a profit on a litter, if you can breed to make money than you probably arent doing it properly


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Whilst I can't answer your question on the age, I can give you a little advice. I was the same as you, didn't think there was anything wrong in people who love their pets having a litter every so often. I didn't understand about health test either. I did every bit of research under the sun I could about puppies, but when it came to health checks I didn't have a clue.

As it happened I wanted a JRT, and I know there are few set health checks that recommended as this isn't a breed that is KC registered, unless you get a Parsons. In the end I saw an ad for some Westie x JRTs. The man we called said someone had let him down and he had 2 left. £75 later we came home with Roo.

It was only a fluke I found this website and started reading about health tests. Now, I know I'll get shot, but to me there is a lot more to an ethical breeder to simply health testing, but also I don't agree with people just letting their dogs come together and then making money. Roo's mum has been spaed now after her second litter. When I asked his breedera few months later, turns out she had been health checked and so had both her parents but Roo's dad hadn't. That was a complete fluke though.

I won't be in this situation for ages now though, as to be honest I'm happy with my 2 and will probably rescue as long as circumtances allow, but if I was looking for a pup, I'd be looking into health tests for that kind of pup, be it pedigree or crossbreed...or in the case of dogs that are not health tested, be researching into the lines and any potential issues there are with it.


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## cloverfan (May 4, 2011)

gubean said:


> The 7 yr old is maltese mum, think the yorkie is 4.
> I don't know, am I niaive in thinking that after speaking to her, she seemed very nice and loves her dogs and every now and again she allows her dogs to get together, have some pups and she sells them, is that really bad?
> I'm in the situation in Cornwall where I look for an ad for a puppy and there will be 3 - that's it. I don't want to travel 350 miles for a dog and I can't risk buying without seeing. I thought mixed breeds were a good thing. I really want to do the proper and ethical thing and go to a big "proper" breeder but all I want is a lovely healthy puppy to go to a family home, no shows or anything like that so I don't mind if its not got a pedigree like Sir lancelot of limpbiscuit St John Smyth or something! As long as the mum and Dad are healthy as are the pups from a loving home and the people aren't extortioners looking to make as much from a dog then should it matter whethre they are registered or not? Sorry I'm just getting disallusioned with finding one as its been two months now. I guess Christmas time also is a stupid time to be looking, more unscrupulous people looking to make a quick buck for xmas eve!
> 
> We check the ads every day and its the same story - already gone within hours of the ad going live - soo annoying!


Gubean ............ Tried to PM you but it wouldnt let me, where abouts in Cornwall are you? PM me if you want. I am also in Cornwall and would be very willing to help you look for a suitable pup and come with you to view and help if I can? The breeds you are looking at are not "my" breed but I could certainly help you re health tested parents/ethically reared pups etc... x


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## gubean (Dec 5, 2011)

cloverfan said:


> Gubean ............ Tried to PM you but it wouldnt let me, where abouts in Cornwall are you? PM me if you want. I am also in Cornwall and would be very willing to help you look for a suitable pup and come with you to view and help if I can? The breeds you are looking at are not "my" breed but I could certainly help you re health tested parents/ethically reared pups etc... x


Aww thanks - I'll def keep that in mind, I'm in St Austell.

HERE IS THE AD IN QUESTION :
*My maltese daisy has just had 3 puppies two girls and one boy ,they are just like real life teddy bears ,non malt ,vet checked at six weeks ready for new homes at eight , they will be wormed ,girls are 575 and the little boy is 525 .Mum and dad are my family pets they are kennel club registered .please feel free to ring at any time to view ,A small deposit to hold . thankyou jacqui.SORRY ALL PUPPIES SOLD *
Like I said she sounds genuine
Here is a pic:


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## cloverfan (May 4, 2011)

I am in ......... so not too far away. Where did you see this advert? Was there any chance this lady was near Eden? x


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

they were how much!?! They were bred for money and nothing else- I'm fairly confident to say unfortunately.
And 8 weeks is 4 weeks too soon for yorkies (and I'm 99% sure for Maltese as well). You could buy a kc reg YT from good recent show lines for less than that! Heck, I've even seen champion sired for a little less than that.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

gubean said:


> Like I said she sounds genuine


You've convinced yourself despite everything that's been said on here that this breeder is 'genuine' so I think your mind is made up 

The Advert says the dogs are KC registered - so what - now if they were KC registered and health-tested and the puppies registered on the acitvity register - then maybe worth a punt? she is breeding crosses - there is no menion of health-tests and the dogs and bitches are selling for different prices - in fact - the bitches are selling for MORE than I sold my last litter of KC pups for 

My pups were KC registered - dad continues to enjoy a successful show career at the top level and has a CC and several Reserve CC's in the ring - mum was a lovely family pet who was also shown with great success at the lower levels (I bred to improve on her) both parents were hipscored, elbow scored, PRA clear, both had current eye certificates, mum was CNM clear and the sire was EIC clear - so progeny were actually guaranteed against being affected for three genetic conditions.

My pup were microchipped, KC registered and fed and raised like kings and queens for nine weeks - - starter pack of food, free insurance, all for £550 

And you think someone who crosses two pets for more than this with NO health tests is genuine :mad2::mad2::mad2:  

===========================

Sorry - but at that price for what they are 

I could even fall for the "need to prove the stud dog argument" - except he's already proven to one of her other bitches - so WHY is there any need whatsoever to breed from the 7 year old bitch


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## gubean (Dec 5, 2011)

swarthy said:


> You've convinced yourself despite everything that's been said on here that this breeder is 'genuine' so I think your mind is made up
> 
> The Advert says the dogs are KC registered - so what - now if they were KC registered and health-tested and the puppies registered on the acitvity register - then maybe worth a punt? she is breeding crosses - there is no menion of health-tests and the dogs and bitches are selling for different prices - in fact - the bitches are selling for MORE than I sold my last litter of KC pups for
> 
> ...


Was there any need for any of that????????

Like I said  I am new to this just looking for a healthy pet for my family. You say kc registered so what then go on you have done it for yours!!
How exactly do you judge whether someones genuine by a few lines on an ad????? I dont even know what Kc reg is. Thats why Im on here for advise, not attitude, Ive got a son upstairs for that thanks all the same.

Now anybody else. How do I go about buying a healthy pup with all the checks thats needed please? I need a non moulting, preferably a bitch small to medium size dog. Also where can I look to see what potential health weaknesses to look out for for each breed? Is there a book with a list? I preferably want a cross breed. In cornwall there isnt the choice of dogs, hence the price. So down here everything is expensive, dogs, cars, houses, even food costs more :mad5:

Also no not from Eden, near plymouth.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

KC have a list of non-moulting breeds here Non-moulting breeds of dog - The Kennel Club Champdogs is a good place to start looking as they have high criteria for the advertisement of litters.


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## cloverfan (May 4, 2011)

You may not like this answer but .......... I think not wanting to travel is going to be a problem. I personally am facing a 12 hour minimum round trip to collect my new pup as I not only like the lines,look,breeder but also as his parents are health tested. Perhaps, if you could consider travelling, then this one or two days of travel would be better than possible health problems you may end up facing that could have been avoided.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

gubean said:


> Was there any need for any of that????????


You have been given a LOT of advice - yet despite everything that's been said - you have come back more than once with "she seems genuine" - when I can't see ANYTHING (and I am not the only one) that suggests the breeding is being done for anything other than the money.



gubean said:


> You say kc registered so what then go on you have done it for yours!!
> How exactly do you judge whether someones genuine by a few lines on an ad????? I dont even know what Kc reg is. Thats why Im on here for advise, not attitude, Ive got a son upstairs for that thanks all the same.


What are you talking about?  my dogs are pedigrees - therefore they can be KC registered as both parents are.

You can tell a LOT from an ad - cross-breeds - different prices for males and females, KC registered parents which is immaterial and at worst misleading because the puppies are crosses. No mention of health-tests and extortionate prices - location is pretty much immaterial when it comes to dog prices - my most expensive dog came from the Scottish borders - a simple 18 hour round trip  - if people want the right pup, they will wait and they will travel



gubean said:


> Now anybody else. How do I go about buying a healthy pup with all the checks thats needed please? I need a non moulting, preferably a bitch small to medium size dog. Also where can I look to see what potential health weaknesses to look out for for each breed? Is there a book with a list? I preferably want a cross breed. In cornwall there isnt the choice of dogs, hence the price. So down here everything is expensive, dogs, cars, houses, even food costs more :mad5:


Your response is quite offensive - I have given you advice as have others which you have chosen to ignore - that's not attitude, that's life sadly 

You have completely ignored the clear intimation in people's posts that this 'breeder' is likely a BYB breeding for money - there is simply NO justification for the litter - that's not attitude and has been re-iterated and ignored throughout your responses - which to me says you've made your mind up regardless of what people say.

Sadly - people continue to ignore advice on buying responsibly bred puppies - they see this sweet little fluffy ball and common-sense goes out of the window - again - not attitude - sadly life and I've seen too many damn dogs die or suffer a lifetime of pain, agony and heartache for their owners ending frequently with such dogs being shunted from pillar to post where no-one wants them -

I make NO apologies for that I'm afraid - there are those of us who care that people are breeding responsibly and doing so for genuine reasons and money certainly isn't one of them 

=================================

Your best bet for finding out about the health-tests is to visit a breed club website for each breed you are interested in being crossed - as you can see both breeds have a not insignificant number of potential health issues

Yorkshire Terrier  Dog Breed Health

Maltese  Dog Breed Health

========================================

If you have to have a non-moulting dog, you are unlikely to get it in a cross - claims that poodle crosses don't moult are at best on shaky ground - they could inherit a poodle coat, the other breeds coat, or somewhere inbetween.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

gubean said:


> Was there any need for any of that????????
> 
> Like I said  I am new to this just looking for a healthy pet for my family. You say kc registered so what then go on you have done it for yours!!
> How exactly do you judge whether someones genuine by a few lines on an ad????? I dont even know what Kc reg is. Thats why Im on here for advise, not attitude, Ive got a son upstairs for that thanks all the same.
> ...


Swarthy wasn't being rude- please don't assume so, everyone here is trying to help you! kc reg is kennel club registered- but only pedigrees can be registred unless with the activity register (for agility and such), so the parents of crosses being registered means next to nothing, apart from showing the parents are pedigrees of a given breed. With you wanting a mix, I really would urge you to check out the shelters in your area. Most peole who breed crosses only fo so for money, and don't care if the pups end up with chronic arthritis from bad knees and hips, or if they will have problems breathing- just as long as thru are cute when sold. It's heartbreaking really.
Swarthy has the some of the Lockhart labs I've ever seen, and with being able to Garentee the pups against several illnesses- that lady's mixes are Still more expensive. It doesn't really matter where you live, that price for a mix is too much, price alone can tell us her main objective- a little spare cash at the expense of her dog.
We are not saying she doesn't lobe her dogs, just probably doesn't know why tests and such are so important...

So please, don't misinterperate other members advise, we all want you and your sone to have a happy healthy dog for many years to come, but that does mean 'shooting down' breeders who are not the best they can be.
May I ask what age your son is; I'd assume if he is old enough to give attitude he is in or near his teens? The reason I ask is because yorkies and other similar toy breeds (especially terriers) are not the best for or with young children- they can be stubborn and impatient, and easily hurt by a child lifting them unsupervised.

(apologies for repeating you cloverfan and swarthy- I took ages writing so missed your posts!)


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Breeder is clearly in it for the money: extortionate prices for what is basically a cross that you could pick up in a rescue. No mention of health tests so any genetic/pre-existing conditions are totally ignored.

Don't be ignorant, Gubean. Listen to the experience on here, it's not given to be offensive, it's given to help, as you asked. You can't ask for help then get ar$y just because you're determined to get one of these pups (even tho it says all sold). 

Walk away from this breeder, she wants cold hard cash, nothing more.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

cinammontoast said:


> Don't be ignorant, Gubean. Listen to the experience on here, it's not given to be offensive, it's given to help, as you asked. You can't ask for help then get ar$y just because you're determined to get one of these pups (even tho it says all sold).


That particular litter is all sold, but the breeder is having another litter with her 7 year old and her own stud dog (hence the title of the thread being the oldest a bitch should have a litter).

In my own breed, 7 is nothing for a healthy bitch - but others with more knowledge of small breeds have indicated they feel it to be old for another litter - even if there was a 'reason' such as proving the stud dog, but there isn't as of course he is already proven - so it sort of feels a bit like another litter for the sake of it


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

If you want a non-shedding coat get a poodle. 

Only FULL KC reg non-shedding dogs are 100% guaranteed to not shed. As many cross breeds coats are unknown until they mature, by then they are with you and the damage has been done.

If you insist on a cross breed why not try and find a respected doodle breeder and insist to them you NEED a non shedding dog. Make sure they are respected because without health tests your looking at all sorts of health issues.

swarthy has been trying to help you, as has everyone else on here. 
The breeder has bred without health testing her dogs, sells them for different prices (do females cost more than males to raise?) and sells said dogs for so much money that its clear its a cash cow scheme and not a genuine love of dogs.

Regardless of breed, full or cross you should find a health tested litter of whatever pup you decide, otherwise it will be your bank balance that feels the pressure and your heart when you are nursing and treating genetic conditions in your much loved dog. (I know from experience with my GSD cross).

KC registered means the dog is pedigree, full breed or whatever else its known as, health tests are something carried out by trained professionals not all vets can do them. Even cross breeds can be health tested as long as, like with pedigree's the breeder is willing to pay money to ensure their dogs are healthy before breeding.


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

Any breeder who charges more for females than males isn't worth even looking at. That is purely to make money, it does not cost more in the 8 weeks after they are born to raise females than males.

I know you are desperately wanting a puppy, I understand that and I am sure a lot of us on here have been through the same feeling.

However the last think you want to do is rush into getting a dog, and finding out its not as anti-allergy as you had been lead to believe in an ad, or even worse, having hip/elbow/eye/hearing problems from not being tested. If your pup turned out to have hip displaysia, it can cost over £3000 PER HIP for surgery, not to mention the pain and time it takes for the dog to get over. 

It's so much better to take some time, get to know a breeder, and find a puppy you will be happy with.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I think you should go ahead, get this " non moulting" pup and sit back and wait for the potential health problems and lavish every trip to the vets, of which there will most likely be many! 

That price is a bl**dy joke for a cross breed from non health tested parents!

Don't you bother listening to the likes of Swarthy who just so happens to breed impecable dogs and knows more about dog genetics than you and I have had hot dinners, yet you have the audacity to question her advice! 

Go ahead, get your pup of convenience (as public transport obviously doesn't exist in Cornwall) and enjoy the potential future health problems that you have purchased and don't come on a frigging dog forum asking for advice and get shirty when it's given, particularly as it was given to help you.

Honestly the front of some people!!


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## Squeeze (Nov 19, 2009)

gubean said:


> down here everything is expensive, dogs, cars, houses, even food costs more


You forgot water rates...! 



> In cornwall there isnt the choice of dogs


Really...? 
Usually 2/3 pages full in the West Briton every week and at least a page in the Western Morning news every day... 
The dogs are out there... Its just finding the right one...! :thumbup1:


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## Tollisty (May 27, 2008)

You might want to look through these

Welcome to The Yorkshire Terrier and Toy Breed Rescue
Home - The Little Dog Rescue
Welcome to the Labradoodle Trust - Education, Rescue & Welfare
<Dogpages UK dog rescue forums>

<Dogpages UK dog rescue forums>


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

I agree with everything Swarthy has said. 

Also spend a little time, money and traveling finding the right pup now and you will save on money in the long run hopefully getting a health tested pup that's less likely to have health issues than one breed purely for money which that lady is imho.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I won't say too much except that I agree with everyone else - the breeder sounds very dodgy to me and frankly I wouldn't buy a pup from any breeder I deemed irresponsible / unethical etc at any price, but especially one clearly trying to make a buck!

But I do want to stress the importance of choosing a good breeder with health tested dogs.

Our family have had two bichon frise (small, lovely, non-moulting breed!), Tilly was our first and now Solo.

Tilly came from a breeder who also seemed "genuine". Her house was immaculate, she seemed to care about the dogs, and supposedly the litter were KC reg.
We were fools - and paid we paid for it - Tilly certainly did.

Tilly was in many ways the perfect pet - friendly, outgoing, fearless.... but a total wreck health wise. 

She developed allergies to everything; so severe she chewed her paws until they bled and she could barely walk. This necessitated an expensive course of immunotherapy, daily antihistamines and evening primrose oil, hypoallergenic diet, etc. She wore a lampshade almost constantly for about 2 years.

This contributed to recurring ear infections (every couple of months) which irritated her no end and requiring daily washing and medicating.

Her joints were all shot. She suffered from luxating patellas, dislocated her hip at least once and also slipped a disc in her spine. All required vet treatment and gave her immense pain.

Oh, plus various other illnesses she picked up with her almost non-existent immune system, which more than once resulted in her spending a few days at the vets on a drip.

I LOVED that girl, I always will. She was my first, my everything. And yet for all her life I watched her suffer - the pain, the itching, the vomitting and diarrhoea, the restricted exercise and the lampshade collar - until she was pts in my arms when she lost her fight against cancer and her organs started to fail. She cost us thousands in vet bills, but the price of her suffering and our heartache was far greater.

When she died we vowed not to make the same mistakes again, and chose our next breeder far more carefully. 

Solo's breeder was KC accredited (now "assured"). She breeds for show when she wants a pup herself and has success in the showring in the UK, Europe and America. All of her dogs are health tested - she tests patellas, the dogs she has taken to the states have been hipscored under their scheme, and she also tests for PRA "just in case" even though its not normally an issue in bichons. (I know she also tests for something else but I can't for the life of me remember what its called!)

The litter were not sold until they over 10 weeks old and already tattoed for ID, and came with a full puppy pack that not only included pedigree, puppy food, etc but a detailed account of all their vet checks, etc.

Solo is now coming up 3 and has no real health problems. He does occassionally get dodgy ears if we don't keep them hair free but that's it. No infections, no injuries, no joints falling out of place, no allergies.
He's just a happy, healthy, dog - and we get far less vet bills, worry and heartache. 

No one should have to watch their beloved dog suffer and die because of bad breeding - because no dog should suffer and die from bad breeding. I know everyone has constraints on money, travel etc. but believe me - its not worth it.

For your own sake - please find a better breeder and get yourself a well bred pup from health tested parents. 

And for the sake of the dogs themselves, please, please don't fund and support breeding practices that cause so much pain.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

You always hear the horror stories about bad breeders and bad crosses, but there are also some who's crosses are perfectly healthy, so was just wondering... 

I love my JRTs, but its a minefield out there, as they are not KC registered so what tests/health tests SHOULD be done for that breed?

Can you test for luxating patella's?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Tilly came from a breeder who also seemed "genuine". Her house was immaculate, she seemed to care about the dogs,


I think this is a real problem and a common reason why people fall for this type of breeder. Just because someone is nice it doesn't necessarily make them a good breeder. Many poor breeders will put on a good act, however, there are many genuinely nice people who breed, but still have no knowledge and should be doing so. And it is often the 'niceness' and 'genuineness' that people fall for.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

The nice act is definitely a problem - we noticed the difference almost as soon as we handed over the money. The breeder said she also did grooming and would be happy to do Tilly (for a price of course). When she went for her first clip the breeder was really arsey - claimed she had almost dislocated her shoulder trying to clip this tiny pup! We never went back obviously. The KC documents we were promised never materialised.

We found out many years later this woman was nothing short of a puppy farmer - an old friend had taken a number of ex-breeders from her. Apparently the dogs lived in cages in the basement - some had never seen grass before and all had awful teeth and various other problems, including one with a limp.

Its so easy to be duped if you don't know what to look for - but once you do know about bad breeders, health testing, etc there's no excuse.


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## gubean (Dec 5, 2011)

Thank you ever so much for all the wonderful advice. I have taken all the advice on board and have decided not to pursue any further. I apologise for my shortness on a prev post I was having a really bad day and I'm afraid one or two of you got the brunt of it! I think Malmum needs to chill a little also and not take things too personally! 
I do have a car thanks, don't need to use public transport  and was willing to travel up to 200 miles, I feel the selection in Cornwall although available, appears limited to certain dogs such as Jack Russells (we had a whole page just of these last week) and I've not met a nice one yet so not for me (no offence to any JRT owners out there I'm merely offering my opinion based on my experiences)
I will still be looking for the right dog but appreciate now that I will be in for a long wait until she is found!


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