# dog not mating bitch in heat



## guest2014 (Mar 10, 2014)

Hi,

my friend and I am trying to breed our dogs ( and yes we have thought this through well and we have potential homes for them, at least for 13 of them so far)

Both dogs are first timers, they are both healthy (checked by the vet) and they are both getting on extremely well.

The male has gone to stay with her on day 10, he is very keen on licking her, he is drooling and blowing bubbles and munching her taste but he does not mount her. My friend thinks he is not interested, but I think although it is day 12 she might just not be quite ready.

He has tried to hump other females that were in heat/just came out of it we met on walks and was very persuasive whether they wanted or not...so I am just a bit unsure.

I think given he is licking her and drooling and munching etc. he is interested, but wouldn't he be trying to mount her then?

Thank you


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Hello and welcome.

What breed are these two. I know you say your vet has checked them, but have they had the relevant tests for their breed?

I just wonder why you want to produce a litter of pups?

Has this dog ever sired a litter before?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I'm sure someone experienced in breeding will be along soon to advise you on mating times etc.

What breed of dog is it, if you don't mind me asking? Have they both had all the relevant health tests for their breed?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Cross-posted Sweety, soz.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Please bear in mind that you might have 13 people interested now, but many may back out.

What are your reasons for wanting to breed?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Shoshannah said:


> Cross-posted Sweety, soz.


Shoshannah,

I've dug deep into my heart and ............ I forgive you.  x


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## guest2014 (Mar 10, 2014)

Yes we got them checked by the vet in the view to breed them.
My dog is a spaniel her dog is a poodle.

The up to 13 puppies will go to family and friends and we both want to keep a puppy. We both would love another dog and as our dogs are getting on so well and we do believe the puppies would be of lovely temperament and character and we have so many family and friends who would love to have a dog from the union we decided to try and breed them.
This is not just a quick decision as she had two seasons since we/the dogs are friends and did not go ahead at her last season as we have not had it properly planned out (vet checks, enough homes lined up etc.)

And no neither of our dogs have been bread before as we are dog owners and lovers not "breeders" as in trying to get out as many dogs as possible of our dogs.


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

Please have the spaniel DNA tested for PRA (this might be recommended for the poodle too) as it would be devastating for any pups to have this horrible condition  

Health tests are not the same as vet checks - a vet check is a quick once-over to see if your dog is currently healthy. A health test finds out if your dog is a carrier of any genetic conditions that could be passed down to a pup. Just because your dogs are healthy doesn't mean they aren't carriers, and in the case of PRA, you could end up with puppies who go blind


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

guest2014 said:


> *Yes we got them checked by the vet in the view to breed them.*My dog is a spaniel her dog is a poodle.
> 
> The up to 13 puppies will go to family and friends and we both want to keep a puppy. We both would love another dog and as our dogs are getting on so well and we do believe the puppies would be of lovely temperament and character and we have so many family and friends who would love to have a dog from the union we decided to try and breed them.
> This is not just a quick decision as she had two seasons since we/the dogs are friends and did not go ahead at her last season as we have not had it properly planned out (vet checks, enough homes lined up etc.)
> ...


 A vet check is meaningless in terms of breeding. Both dogs should have eye tests and hip scores as a minimum and at least one should be dna tested for pra (the eye test does have check pra but it only tests that the dog does not suffer from it at that time - a dna test will tell you whether the dog is clear, a carrier or affected.)

Oh, even if you have one litter you are a breeder.


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

Please please get full health checks done on both dogs not just a vet saying they are healthy dogs, there could be so many health problems along the way with the puppies, and vet bills are not cheap, xx


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Anyone who allows a bitch to have pups, or a dog to sire them is a BREEDER! You will have responsibility for any pups produced for the whole of their lives. 

You will also be responsible for bringing into the world pups who have shortened lifespan filled with suffering due to the fact YOU HAVE NOT checked for hereditary health issues carried by either breed. 

Vets can only tell you if the dogs are fit enough to breed, not what hereditary issues they might carry. 

Please separate these dogs and enjoy them as pets, or be prepared to fork out the money for health tests like a responsible breeder would. 

Breeding carries far more responsibility than bunging two dogs together.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

guest2014 said:


> Yes we got them checked by the vet in the view to breed them.
> My dog is a spaniel her dog is a poodle.
> 
> The up to 13 puppies will go to family and friends and we both want to keep a puppy. We both would love another dog and as our dogs are getting on so well and we do believe the puppies would be of lovely temperament and character and we have so many family and friends who would love to have a dog from the union we decided to try and breed them.
> ...


Health checks are not indictative of anything, other than the parents *appear* healthy. Health tests are actual recognised ways of recording the parents do not suffer from *a* condition, or recording the extent of something like dysplasia.

Can I ask why you are breeding? And can I also warn you, if you are inexperienced, mating can carry risks in itself, bitches can have strictures or other problems that are not outwardly obvious, and they can injure themselves in the process of mating. Do you have an experienced mentor that can help you with all these things?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

What size Poodle and is the Spaniel the potential Sire or the Dam?

I mean if you're considering mating a Toy Poodle bitch to a Springer Spaniel, you could be in for a World of trouble.

Do please be aware that much as you might love the idea of this, these pups would be Crossbreeds, and whilst I have nothing against that personally, the Pounds and Shelters are bursting at the seams with them. Unwanted and homeless.

Please think carefully about what you're planning to do. 

As an ex-breeder, I took responsibility for my pups to the point of insisting on having them back at any point in their lives if necessary, and it does happen!

I took a dog back at four years old when his Owners separated.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Why is it that when asked if the dogs have been health tested posters reply that they have been checked by the vet.

Just for reference....

Eye tests. These cannot be done by your vet (unless your vet is one of the 30ish ophthalmic specialists that are on the BVA eye testing panel). They can only be done by an appointed ophthalmic specialist.

http://www.bva.co.uk/public/documents/EP_list_Jan_2012.pdf

Hip scores involve taking an xray of your dog's hips (and while your vet can do this I would recommend a vet who is experienced in placing a dog for hip scoring), which are then sent to the BVA to be assessed by a specialist panel. Your vet cannot hip score.

There are several laboratories that do DNA PRA tests, I use Optigen in the US. Your vet will need to take bloods which you send to the US to be tested and the results are sent back to you.

I think you will find it is a little different to the 'vet check' that your vet has done.


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

guest2014 said:


> The up to 13 puppies will go to family and friends and we both want to keep a puppy. We both would love another dog and as our dogs are getting on so well and we do believe the puppies would be of lovely temperament and character and we have so many family and friends who would love to have a dog from the union we decided to try and breed them.


Don't be surprised if some of those people saying how much they would love a pup disappear when the pups are actually on the ground.

My most recent pup is from a very well bred litter, bred by an experienced breeder with plenty of interest beforehand and yet several people still backed out once the litter was born as they were all a "boring" common colour. Do none of the people who want a pup have any preference as to gender, colour, coat type, pattern etc.? However unlikely the statistics say it is all the pups could turn out the same gender, or the same colour and looking exactly like a spaniel with no indication there's any poodle there at all. Bear in mind that if people do back out and you're left with pups unsold at 8 weeks there's going to be nothing to distinguish them from the countless (and I really do mean countless) litters of poodle crosses on Pets4Homes and similar sites.

Regardless of the size of poodle and whether the spaniel is a springer or cocker (I'm presuming it's one or the other) both parents should be hip scored and eye tested. There are also several breed specific DNA tests that should be done as well. You can see a list of which tests should be done on these pages;

English springer spaniel

Cocker spaniel

Miniature poodle

Standard poodle


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2014)

Hi guest2014,
Maybe its a good thing they havent bred yet. 

Unfortunately there is a pet dog overpopulation crisis pretty much everywhere, including the UK. Rescues are full of lovely crosses who need homes - including spanielXpoodle with just as lovely temperaments as your two. 

What purpose do you have in adding dogs to the pet population? What will the dogs you produce have to offer that isnt already available in shelters and free pet advertisements all over the place?
If youre not doing the suggested genetic health testing, temperament testing, early neurostimulation, early socialization and handling, anything to set your pups apart from the bazillion other poodle/spaniel crosses out there, all youre really doing is throwing more dogs in to an overpopulated environment, to the detriment of those individual dogs. Is that something you really want to do?

Additionally, have you thought about a contract or agreement from your puppy buyers? What kind of checks will you have in place to make sure those dogs stay in a good home for the life of the dog? What if one of the pups you sell ends up in an abusive home? What legal recourse will you have in place to ensure you can take that pup back? How are you going to make sure that the pups you produce dont end up in rescue? What if one (or several) of the pups have health or temperament issues? What kind of responsibility will you, as the producer of these dogs take? What will you do to make sure the pup is properly taken care of?

Are you going to require that these future homes spay/neuter their dogs? How are you going to ensure that the dogs you produce dont go on to produce 13 more pups of their own? Im not the best at maths, but even if only 5 of your potential 13 pups go on to breed, purposely or accidentally, youre now looking at 50 to 60 more dogs added in to a population where dogs are PTS daily for lack of homes. Is that really something you want to contribute to?

I know youve said youve thought about this, but I would urge you to consider the full ramifications of indiscriminate breeding. Not just its effect on you personally, but the bigger picture.


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## Linda2147 (Sep 26, 2013)

go to a shelter on "kill" day and watch a helpless animal die just because of overcrowding conditions and there are not enough home for all of them. It all comes down to irresponsible "breeders" that intentionally breed mixed breed pups or people that let their dogs run loose to breed at will. 

I have nothing against mixed breed dogs, they all need a home and they don't know or care what they are. Its up to you to make sure you don't add to the problem by deliberately making more.

Stop and think what you are doing, you are letting pups be born that you have no idea what their future will be. There are sick twisted people that take "free" pets and abuse them, sell them to laboratories, use them as bait animals and who knows what else these sick minds think of.

Have your dogs spayed and neutered, end this cycle of needless suffering just because you want to breed. Enjoy them as the pets they were made to be. You aren't creating a new breed, you are creating more mutts with an unknown future. Think of the dogs and the pups already here that need home. Stop thinking of what you want and think of the dogs.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

So it wouldn't upset you to end up with pups who go blind?

Because that can happen* IF *you don't get the parents screened for PRA. And sorry to be so blunt but if you don't know what PRA is, you have no right to try and breed these dogs.

We ALL have fab dogs, but that is not a reason to breed from them - not when the rescues and shelters are crammed full of unwanted, unloved dogs.


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## Linda2147 (Sep 26, 2013)

should be mandatory jail time for the crime of being stupid!

Leave breeding to the experts (which I am not) You want a mutt go to a shelter, there are plenty there to choose from and they are just as deserving as a purebred of having a good loving home. 

Save a life, don't create more!

75% of pups wind up in shelters or other homes, very few actually stay in their original home. 

People get dogs on a whim, then they tire of it when it doesn't self train or has behavior issues that they themselves cause. Then they are passed on to be someone else's problem. Bounced from home to home until they wind up dumped or put in a shelter to be put down. 

If this OP thinks her situation is different she's delusional. Happens all the time.


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## Kirstyrebe (Jan 20, 2014)

Oh gosh you lot are depressing....  BUT I do totally agree with every single comment


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Kirstyrebe said:


> Oh gosh you lot are depressing....  BUT I do totally agree with every single comment


Some of the comments are a bit harsh, but even harsher, today, when I was doing my shopping, I was approached by the Dogs Trust. I already donate to the Dogs Trust, but they were asking for any extra I could offer, so I doubled my donations. They are building two new rehoming centres, because they are having a dog handed in every six hours at the moment. They don't put their dogs down, but some *rescue* places do, and it's depressing to think of how many dogs are simply being bred, to be passed from pillar to post, and then die before their time because no-one wants them any longer. I've even seen adverts for people rehoming older dogs, to make space for a new puppy.

So when people post about simply chucking a couple of dogs together, or allowing their pet dogs to procreate, that's why threads like this receive some less than tolerant posts I'm afraid. Sometimes people listen, but more often than not, they don't, it's not against the law to breed dogs, and lots of people do it for extra cash.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Kirstyrebe said:


> Oh gosh you lot are depressing....  BUT I do totally agree with every single comment


It's true, it is depressing and I don't think anyone particularly enjoys threads such as these.

The whole business of the thousands of unwanted dogs is depressing though, especially when there are people only too willing to keep churning them out through casual breeding.


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## spoiltmadam (May 21, 2013)

And they read all the advice give, went away, ignored it because it was not what they wanted to hear, and by now i expect the deed is done!!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

guest2014 said:


> ...we got them checked by the vet [with a] view to breed them.
> ...


Please see the sticky, *Necessary Health Tests before breeding* , on this sub-forum,
& specifically starting with this single post:

http://www.petforums.co.uk/1061204822-post68.html

Heritable conditions in some SPANIEL breeds:


> American Cocker Spaniel:
> 1, 2, 10, 12, 18, 26, 27, 38, 38a, 42, 43, 54, 55, 64, 65, 69,
> 72, 73, 88, 94, 94a, 95, 103, 107, 109, 121, 123, 135, 146,
> 147, 148, 149, 150, 152, 154, 166, 171, 173, 179, 181, 186,
> ...


Heritable conditions in POODLES:


> Miniature Poodle:
> 5, 10, 22, 26, 27, 42, 49, 57, 70, 78, 81, 85, 88, 92,
> 93, 103, 109, 110, 111, 121, 135, 136, 140, 144, 146,
> 147, 156, 165, 166, 173, 175, 184, 186, 192, 193a,
> ...


For the names of the heritable conditions, SEE the thread -
the prospective breeder, ANY prospective breeder, needs to know the potential risks,
AND whether there are tests to assess carrier / affected, or recessives.

Some tests are cheap, but the majority are not; that's why ethically-bred pups aren't cheap.
However, there are also pet-shops who will flog a pup who comes from un-tested parents for MORE
than an ethically-bred pup bought directly from the breeder. Profit is what inflates the price - 
not quality, nor the COSTS they've incurred in raising, shipping, etc.

Additionally, no dog should be bred before 24-MO; that's 2-years age.
There are 2 reasons:
* 85% of all heritable conditions will show symptoms by age-2, in dogs who will be affected; thus,
even an un-testable potential problem can be seen, before the dog produces pups.

* Breeding for the first time at age-2 adds *an average of 2-years to the lifespan of the pups.*
It's the cheapest & simplest method of extending any dog's potential lifespan: delaying breeding.

I mention this as the OP has not said the age of either dog, but i suspect neither has reached 2-YO.
The bitch has only had 2 heats, previously, so she'd be about 18-MO. Another 6-mos will allow those pesky tests
to be done [eye certificates from a vet-opthalmologist, PennHIP radiographs on hips & elbows, SKIN PUNCH
samples from the Poodle, etc, etc].
.
.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

spoiltmadam said:


> And they read all the advice give, went away, ignored it because it was not what they wanted to hear, and by now i expect the deed is done!!


Unfortunately, I think you're right, although there are those on here who think we've 'frightened them away'


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## moonpie (Mar 11, 2014)

I cannot understand why anyone would consider breeding a litter of puppies in this day and age. Absolutely no thought has gone into this decision other than the same old ' I want to keep a puppy'. Are you prepared to be responsible for the pups for the rest of their lives. You should be prepared to do this as this is what resposible breeders offer prospective buyers of their pups. Why the hell breed potentially 10 to 12 puppies just to keep a couple. Search your concience and go to a rescue centre for another dog-don't just add to the problem just because you think you can. Watching a dog die just because it isn't wanted anymore (as hundreds are every day) is heartbreaking and people like you are responsible:incazzato:


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

Here is the result of some humans who thought it would be a good idea to let 2 different breeds breed, Jack (little legs) was found in a box on the street aged about 6 wks old, dont know if the person who bred his mother left him there or if someone bought him then decided they didnt want him, i got him a wk after he was found, he will be 8 yrs old next month, my other dog Charlie is a whippet x poodle ,i got him via a rescue, he was aged 13 months old when i got him and are his 4th owner !!!!!! so i am really against people x breeding, the rescues are full to bursting,


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

I get so depressed at the number of people who think it's fine to just chuck two dogs together so they can then sell 'cute' puppies.

So yes, my posts probably are a bit harsh - but if dog lovers aren't going to speak up passionately for responsible breeding, who the hell will


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## Linda2147 (Sep 26, 2013)

it may not be against the law to breed but it should be. In my own opinion unless you are a licenced breeder they should be fined and fined heavily for having an unspayed female and breed any time you want. Hit them in the pocketbook thats all some people understand.

The laws have to change, dogs should no longer be considered property to do with what you will, they are living breathing creatures with feelings. They need to stop thinking of them as property like a stove or frige to be tossed aside and thrown out because their "owner' tires of them. 

I know I can't save them all, much as I wish I could but I will keep trying to save as many as I can. BE it with trying to educate the ones that think they know it all to pulling one from a kill shelter and finding it a good home myself. I do what I can. 

I once took a shepherd that the owner was going to shoot, poor thing had been kept caged for 18 months, I took her, fattened her up, had her groomed and vetted and spent hours and hours teaching her how to be just a dog. Unfortunately my time with her was short, she died of cancer a couple of years after I took her. But I don't regret it, If I never accomplish anything else in my lifetime I know I saved at least one.


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## Howl (Apr 10, 2012)

I do think there is a place for breeding, I would hate to see our endangered breeds disappear or ethical breeders bullied to leave breeding and it be left only to the money makers and the idiots. 
However if it is getting to the point where you are considering the best stud for a bitch surely it has to be a bit more consideration than a friend down the road. 
If you are at that point very little of this info should be news, same with buying a dog, sadly I do think things need to change. People should have easy access to good information not the same old rubbish when they are thinking of getting a puppy and then the dangers and information when they come to the vets (if they do:rolleyes5 to check the bitch is ready to mate. 
I wish I knew 13 reliable people who wanted a dog, sadly I know many more dogs I would love to help find homes for.


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## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

My son has been talking about getting a puppy so I suggested that he tried looking on some of the rescue sites in our part of the world "but they are all older dogs they don't have puppies" he said so I promptly showed him 3 sites in South Wales that had full litters of puppies from irresponsible people that had let their dogs mate and could not sell the pups so just shoved them in a shelter for it to be their responsibility to re-home them he was astounded and quite upset by the animals that he saw on these sites he was just not aware just how bad it was as is the same for many , many people, good news he is now going to get a young rescue dog not nesassarily a pup


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I don't want to be licensed, if I choose to breed on from my youngsters, I want to be able to make the decisions about the health tests I feel are important, and relevant to the breed. I would however, like to see the law changed so that all dogs have to be sold under contract and the breeder remains responsible for the life of that animal, to ensure they stay in a good home, or they take them back themselves.


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

Another thread from a dog owner without a clue who's just after making a few quid from crossing two dogs, probably giving it a daft new breed name and charging twice the amount... clearly! 

If I offend tough


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## DirtyGertie (Mar 12, 2011)

Interesting the way the OP says "up to 13 puppies" as though they've already worked out how much they can sell them for. Nice little earner . OP doesn't say whether they're giving the puppies away or selling them but I imagine the answer is fairly obvious.

There are a couple of these "breeders" near me who have the mom and dad and are breeding them and a few have gone to local people. It's extremely doubtful whether they know exactly what they are doing or having them health tested. One person has two from the same "breeder" so has two sisters but from different litters, and from the ages of the dogs the second litter must have come from the mother's next season!

Another one decided it would be nice for her bitch to have a litter before she was spayed, and the guy up the road just happened to have an entire male of the same breed. Fortunately there were a very small number of puppies and they have gone to local homes.

I honestly don't know how it's possible to educate these people :nonod:


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## Linda2147 (Sep 26, 2013)

All pups should be microchipped before going to new homes, that way if something happens and the dog is lost or put in a shelter they will be scanned and the original breeder would have the opportunity to get them back

Selling with a contract is also a good idea only thing with that is how do you know if the contract is being honored. The person could move away and you'd loose contact with them and have no way of knowing whats happened to the pup.


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## Bedhead (Feb 10, 2014)

Linda2147 said:


> All pups should be microchipped before going to new homes, that way if something happens and the dog is lost or put in a shelter they will be scanned and the original breeder would have the opportunity to get them back
> 
> Selling with a contract is also a good idea only thing with that is how do you know if the contract is being honored. The person could move away and you'd loose contact with them and have no way of knowing whats happened to the pup.


I don't understand exactly what you mean by this? My puppy is micro chipped, and that chip is registered to me, not his breeder. If he was lost or stolen then I'd want him returning to me, not to the breeder. Or did you mean that both the owner and the breeders details would be registered, so the breeder would only be contracted if the owner couldn't be traced?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Bedhead said:


> I don't understand exactly what you by this. My puppy is micro chipped, and that chip is registered to me, not his breeder. If he was lost or stolen then I'd want him returning to me, not to the breeder. Or did you mean that both the owner and the breeders details would be registered, so the breeder would only be contracted if the owner couldn't be traced?


The latter - I think every breeder should also be registered along with owner details, so that if the dog is ever lost, or homeless, rather than go into rescue, they should become the responsibility of the person who bred them.


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## Linda2147 (Sep 26, 2013)

Register the chip to the owner but have the breeder as a contact person in case the owner can't be found


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## Bedhead (Feb 10, 2014)

Linda2147 said:


> Register the chip to the owner but have the breeder as a contact person in case the owner can't be found


Thank you for clarifying. I think that would be a very sensible idea, especially when combined with the compulsory micro chipping that way are getting soon anyway.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

guest2014 said:


> Hi,
> 
> my friend and I am trying to breed our dogs ( and yes we have thought this through well and we have potential homes for them, at least for 13 of them so far)
> 
> ...





guest2014 said:


> Yes we got them checked by the vet in the view to breed them.
> My dog is a spaniel her dog is a poodle.
> 
> The up to 13 puppies will go to family and friends and we both want to keep a puppy. We both would love another dog and as our dogs are getting on so well and we do believe the puppies would be of lovely temperament and character and we have so many family and friends who would love to have a dog from the union we decided to try and breed them.
> ...


Since both of the dogs are "virgins" it may take them longer to figure out how to do "the deed" successfully.

Generally, there is the notion that a dog "performs" better on his own home turf instead of being sent away. Which is why usually the bitch visits, or goes to stay with, the sire instead of the other way around.

Please be sure that you & your friend have an iron clad agreement and contingency plan in terms of expenses and care for resulting puppies. Starting from how and who will hand-rear the pups should something happen to the dam, to who has how much input when it comes to select the most suitable future owners....and who has the most suitable environment to home any remaining pups. Strong and longlasting friendships have dissolved over MUCH lesser issues than the aforementiined.

Be sure to have discussed, in detail, the mundane and practical yet vital, and often non-considered, aspects of rearing a litter. Just one example: it is hard to fathom how noisy a bunch of puppies are. In the house and later outside. As adorable as 4 - 8 week old pups are....they are an EXCEPTIONALLY vocal bunch. Not an issue if one lives surrounded by nature, has a farm or acres of private land. DEFINITELY an issue when flanked by close neighbours.

In essence - do you, and more importantly your friend whose litter it will be as she owns the female, have the space, the money, the time AND the commitment?

If the answer to ANY of it is " actually no", fetch your boy back. If it is a resounding "yes" to all, see whether bringing both back to his home will make a difference to e mating success.

All the best...whatever you decide


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

the obvious [not-so obvious, to some]:

* the OP & the opp-sex owner each want ONE pup.
That leaves however-many others in the litter, unclaimed.

* Saying, _"oh, we'd LOVE one of those pups!..."_ isn't signing a contract & paying a deposit.
Such a claim is a piecrust promise - easily made, but even easier broken.

* Even if every prospective puppy-buyer actually follows thru, a dog's average lifespan is 10 to 12-yrs.
In that time, many things can happen, & those pups, now grown & no longer adorable infants, may be
homeless; is the breeder willing to take them in, even if only whilst looking for another good home?

Here are the things we haven't mentioned:

- cost:
if things go pear-shaped, an emergency C-section starts at $1200-USA & goes up.
That doesn't include antibiotics, pain control, blood tests prior to surgery, oxytocin
[often given in an attempt to stimulate uterine contractions], IV-fluids, or any complications.

Food:
Bitches in the final trimester consume 1/3 more food than they do outside of pregnancy,
& because of the need for caloric density, by day-30 they should be transitioned onto
a good-quality PUPPY food, which has more protein, fat, & calories per ounce than adult-dog food.

By weeks 4 & 5, the bitch is eating HALF AGAIN her usual calories - of a good quality puppy-food.
Such foods are not cheap, but poor-quality adult-food requires her to eat so much, she couldn't
consume enuf to meet her own needs, plus the growing pup's demands on her for milk.

Vet care for the pups:
Every pup should go to the vet's for an exam within 48-hours of birth, along with Mum-dog.
They are checked for umbilical or other hernias, palate issues, any fading symptoms,
normal wt-gain, neural signs, eye or other congenital issues, etc. Mum-dog is checked for
any retained placentae, vital signs, milk flow, any symptoms of mastitis, etc.

By 6 to 8-WO, pups should be vaxed against distemper & Parvo - anything else can wait.

Stuff to buy:
- 1st Aid Kit; make up a basic one, average totals around $50.
One must: A TEMP PROBE for taking rectals! - plus sandwich-bags, as disposable covers.

- Whelping kit: dental floss to tie-off umbilicals,
S/S scissors that can be sanitized,
absorbent rags the dam can rip while nesting,
inexpensive washable vet-fleece pads for the litter's bedding,
a whelping box or kiddy wading pool for litter & mum,
a RAIL for larger breeds to prevent Mum-dog lying on & smothering a neonate
[the pups can roll or crawl under it, where Mum won't squush them];
a heat-lamp of the radiant kind for the 1st week, to prevent chilling;
scented housetraining-pads for the pups after week-4, indoors.

TIME COMMITMENTS:
- early neuro-stimulation: Simple & quick, about 30-seconds per puppy every day,
from day-14 to day-35; it has *brain, body, & behavior benefits for life.*

- enrichment:
Stuff to explore - substrates, obstacles, textures, odors, sights, sounds, challenges, etc.
Fetch & tug games, apropos to the pup's age & co-ordination. Agility obstacles.

- Habituation:
Household sounds & sights - microwave beeps, vacuum cleaner, garbage disposal, dishwasher,
clothes washer, doorbell, door knocks, ceiling fans, TV, computer, mobile phone...
Outdoor sounds & sights - traffic, pedestrians, bikes, diesel engines, trains, planes, wildlife,
livestock, other dogs, roaming cats, umbrellas, running kids, noisy recess yards, joggers...

- Socialization:
A well-socialized pup should meet a *minimum* of 100 friendly strangers before they
are 12-WO, who should be widely varied - NOT all like the breeder & their family. Ethnic, color,
language, diet, able / disabled, old / young, short / tall, fasttalking & noisy, slow & quiet, etc.
They should also meet other dogs than Mum, at least a few other pet-species [a cat who's not
afraid of dogs while the pup is HELD for safety; a sturdy pocket-pet, if the pups aren't terriers
or other varmint specialists - Schnauzers, etc], & so on.
Children are very different from grown-ups, & should be on the list; a crying infant, a shrieking
toddler, shouting 9-YOs, & so on.

- Early introduction to handling -
trimming baby-claws with human nail-clippers or cat-claw scissors;
examine ears, eyes, mouth / teeth, skin [parting hair], butt [for diarrhea or irritation],
take pulse at femoral artery, pick up & hold paw [each in turn], roll gently onto back
& examine tummy, comb & / or brush, BATHE, make scissoring noises without cutting hair
but with the scissors' vibrations felt by the dog, run clippers over the body WITHOUT
actually clipping hair [vibration & noise], etc, etc.

- Early "training" -
teaching all pups to 'come' with a simple, happy, "Puppy, come!",
and NO, repeat NO bad consequences or associations, is a fantastic, easy foundation.
'Sit' by luring a pup's head up & back with a treat overhead, & 'Down' by moving a lure
straight down between forepaws, then directly away along the floor, is also easy.

*Cleaning up:
Not one person mentioned that rearing a litter means clearing away the mess of birth
[soggy old towels & other rags, proper towels used to dry newborns], & then 2-months
of laundry & house-cleaning: washable bedding of vet-fleece that lines the bitch's nest
for the litter, the bitch's bowls, possible diarrhea after she eats 1 to 2 placentae - 
good for contracting her uterus & stopping bleeding, plus kick-starting her milk-flow,
but often tripping a bowel-cleansing for a day or so;
PUPPY WASTE starting as soon as the litter begins to sample solid-food as more than
a 'taste' - when they switch from breast-milk-only to over 1/4th solid-food, Mum-dog
will quit EATING pups' urine & feces, which puts clean-up squarely on the owner for 
the next THREE WEEKS, from approx 5-WO to 8-WO when the pups are ready to leave -
Between 5-WO & 8-WO, pups have only 21-days to actively play with their sibs & dam,
& learn all their dog social-skills which are crucial, as well as BITE INHIBITION.
Dumping a 5 to 6-WO pup in a buyer's arms because 's/he's already weaned' is pure
unmitigated b*llsh!t, as Mum isn't just a milk-bar, she's a role-model & a teacher,
& Active Play can only begin when pups are off their bellies & no longer crawling.

Novice & back-yard breeders are notorious for sending pups away too soon, because 
cleaning up pee & poop from 3 to 14 puppies is a pain in their a$$es & they don't
enjoy this part of rearing pups. That's too bl**dy bad -grow up & deal. The pups need
TIME to become normal dogs, & those 21-days of precious interaction are the basis
for the rest of their LIVES, in their relations with other dogs, & their ability to inhibit
their BITE - a skill that literally means life or death.*

Still want to breed that litter?...
Spend all the money to test both parents before breeding,
more money to provide high-quality concentrated puppy-food to the dam BEFORE whelping,
& for 3 to 4 weeks [weeks ~5 to 8] to the whole litter, buy a *flying-saucer* or 2 to serve meals
for the 1st week, then buy INDIVIDUAL BOWLS for every pup to be used & washed for each
meal, for weeks 6 thru 8, so they don't learn to quarrel & fight over food, or guard it?

Still want to spend 3 to 4 weeks cleaning-up after pee & poop from however-many pups?
Carting them to the vet for their 24- to 48-hr exam with the mum, & again around 6 to 8-WO
for their initial vax [distemper & Parvo]?

Carrying them around to see, hear, smell things, meet ppl, get used to traffic?...

be awakened irregularly by a mum-dog with a massive belly, who's gotta go NOW, cuz her
pregnancy takes up most of her abdomen, & she has no room for her own urine & BM?

Spend 8 weeks, caring for, cleaning-up puppy bodies & faces, rolling up poopy pup-pads,
stuffing the trash with stinky pee-pads, pick up poop from the horde [mum & all] in Ur garden
from week 5 or so thru week-8 & day 56?...

And on day-56 or soon thereafter, say good-bye to those babies, knowing that they may
come back to haunt U at any time over the next 10-years or so, if some disaster occurs?

*Are U going to be proud of the job U did, & welcome home any pup of Ur breeding,
or sorry U wasted the time & effort for so little payback, & tell owners who can't keep
their pup later in life, "Too bad, that's what shelters are for..." ?

Rearing a litter is a serious thing; there's joy, yes, but it's not simple or easy.
Bunging 2 dogs together when the bitch is in heat is the very least of it!*
.
.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I don't want to be licensed, if I choose to breed on from my youngsters, I want to be able to make the decisions about the health tests I feel are important, and relevant to the breed. *I would however, like to see the law changed so that all dogs have to be sold under contract and the breeder remains responsible for the life of that animal, to ensure they stay in a good home, or they take them back themselves.*


It's probably sadly unworkable, but wouldn't it be wonderful if more people had to by law take responsibility for their breeding, it would stamp out a lot of the BYBs straight away!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Linda2147 said:


> *All pups should be microchipped before going to new homes*,
> that way if something happens and the dog is lost or put in a shelter they will be scanned
> and *the original breeder would have the opportunity to get them back.*


only if that breeder REGISTERS the chip, & puts themselves down as *primary contact*,
then adds the buyer as SECONDARY contact.

If the chip is registered only to the owner, or worse yet, NEVER registered, it does nothing
to notify the breeder, or the owner - an unregistered chip can only be traced as far as the vet
who buys it, & not to the dog that it was inserted into.

If the buyer is the primary contact, U'll never hear a thing if the dog is lost, stolen, or surrendered.

I did that with the '$300 stray-cat' that i gave to Va Beach Cat Rescue to be homed:
put my contact-info on the chip, so that if she was allowed to roam & picked-up, i'd be notified.


Linda2147 said:


> Selling with a contract is also a good idea, only... how do you know if the contract is being honored.
> The person could move away & you'd loose contact... & have no way of knowing what's happened
> to the pup.


Electronic media are better than physical addresses for long-term connection - 
e-mail, cell-phone, Facebook, etc, as well as land-line if any, & street address.

For long-term contact, it has to be *cordial -* U can't be an adversary
or rude & critical, & expect to be treated like an auntie to the dog!

Offer help, not just criticism. Make suggestions ahead of need - such as puppy classes that U know
are well-run & local to the buyer, or a good pet-sitter who can pop in & take the pup out to potty when
the owners are at work before the pup is 5 to 6-MO, & dry for the day / can wait to toilet.

Make play-dates for Ur dam & her pups, or Ur sire & his pups - keep them alive to each other,
so that if DoG forbid they must come back, the parent-dog is on friendly terms with the kids.

Offer to help with socialization, or vet-visits for each pup solo, or short happy groomer visits, etc.

Have the name & contact-info for a good in-house sitter, or an equally good boarding kennel,
so that if the dog needs to stay somewhere, it's not a random grab in an emergency.
Offer to pup-sit overnite or for the weekend, if U can - keep the pups familair with U & the household.

Be ready to field possibly 'dumb' questions, but any question deserves an answer, & be grateful
that the buyer trusts U enuf to ask!, rather than whine about silly questions - it's a compliment to be
seen as a genuine resource, & the only really dumb questions are the ones that are never asked,
sadly.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

simplysardonic said:


> It's probably sadly unworkable, but wouldn't it be wonderful if more people had to by law take responsibility for their breeding, it would stamp out a lot of the BYBs straight away!


It would be difficult to enforce, but if part of registering pups (and yes, I'd like to see all cross breeds registered as well) was to also file a contract with the *company* who registers dogs, whether that stays with the KC or not. And yes, that would stop people simply churning out litters, and put an end to puppy farmers and pet supermarkets selling puppies.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I have loved to keep in contact with any puppies I have bred and mainly it has happened - but I would not buy a puppy with a contract or if I did I would have no intention of honouring it. Once I have bought it or taken it on it is my dog to do what I like with. I will keep in contact with the breeder because I enjoy the contact but that is as far as it goes.

I am sure I cannot be alone in this.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I have loved to keep in contact with any puppies I have bred and mainly it has happened - but I would not buy a puppy with a contract or if I did I would have no intention of honouring it. Once I have bought it or taken it on it is my dog to do what I like with. I will keep in contact with the breeder because I enjoy the contact but that is as far as it goes.
> 
> I am sure I cannot be alone in this.


Who says you have to stay in touch? The contract of sale could be as basic as needs be, but the point is that if the dog was handed in, the contract would show the breeder details, and the dog then becomes their responsibility.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Who says you have to stay in touch? The contract of sale could be as basic as needs be, but the point is that if the dog was handed in, the contract would show the breeder details, and the dog then becomes their responsibility.


I said that I liked staying in touch. But I do not like a contract.

I am confused. Where would a dog be handed in and why would anyone still even have the contract or be bothered by it. I think there would only be a small number of breeders that would take the dog back anyway. Even if the intention was there at the time of breeding things change.


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## Kirstyrebe (Jan 20, 2014)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Some of the comments are a bit harsh, but even harsher, today, when I was doing my shopping, I was approached by the Dogs Trust. I already donate to the Dogs Trust, but they were asking for any extra I could offer, so I doubled my donations. They are building two new rehoming centres, because they are having a dog handed in every six hours at the moment. They don't put their dogs down, but some *rescue* places do, and it's depressing to think of how many dogs are simply being bred, to be passed from pillar to post, and then die before their time because no-one wants them any longer. I've even seen adverts for people rehoming older dogs, to make space for a new puppy.
> 
> So when people post about simply chucking a couple of dogs together, or allowing their pet dogs to procreate, that's why threads like this receive some less than tolerant posts I'm afraid. Sometimes people listen, but more often than not, they don't, it's not against the law to breed dogs, and lots of people do it for extra cash.


I totally AGREE, we give to dogs trust also it's not a lot but it's something and in return we hear on the progress on little staff  which is always nice


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

guest2014 said:


> Yes we got them checked by the vet in the view to breed them.
> My dog is a spaniel her dog is a poodle.
> 
> The up to 13 puppies will go to family and friends and we both want to keep a puppy. We both would love another dog and as our dogs are getting on so well and we do believe the puppies would be of lovely temperament and character and we have so many family and friends who would love to have a dog from the union we decided to try and breed them.
> ...


Oh, God. Not again . . .


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Blitz said:


> I said that I liked staying in touch. But I do not like a contract.
> 
> I am confused. Where would a dog be handed in and why would anyone still even have the contract or be bothered by it. * I think there would only be a small number of breeders that would take the dog back anyway.* Even if the intention was there at the time of breeding things change.


I thought all decent breeders stipulate that if the dog has to be rehomed for any reason, the dog must be returned to them 

Oh just realised that you mean of the people like the OP?


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

I think the OP is bonkers. Firstly, they don't think they're "breeders" How does that work then, if you give birth, you are a mum, whether you have one or six children, so they are breeders, it's just a matter of what type of breeder they OP is. No-one refers to themselves as backyard breeders, but that is exactly what the OP wants to become.

Secondly, they have homes for 13 puppies ...... oh yeah, right, what ever....so 13 puppies are sent out into this world, not health-tested, nothing except a vet saying they're "healthy", that's good innit! 

Thirdly, what makes the OP think that they should chuck their dogs together? ££££££££££££££££££££££££ - pure and simple. I hope to God this mating doesn't happen.  Poor poor dogs. Being bred by stupid people.


Yes, I am sick and tired of these ignorant and stupid people putting two dogs together and wanting puppies. Makes me absolutely sick. And, I really couldn't give a toss if anyone thinks I'm harsh, get themselves around the rescue centres and have a look at all the puppies that have been born and abandoned, weeks months or years later by people just like this OP. Ig but, it's OK because they're all going to family and friends though......:nonod:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I said that I liked staying in touch. But I do not like a contract.
> 
> I am confused. Where would a dog be handed in and why would anyone still even have the contract or be bothered by it. I think there would only be a small number of breeders that would take the dog back anyway. Even if the intention was there at the time of breeding things change.


Why don't you like a contract?

A dog can be handed in anywhere, but when scanned, and the name of the owner and breeder comes up BOTH can be contacted, and if the owner has sold or moved the dog on, the breeder should then pick up the pieces. They chose to breed dogs, and bring *X* amount of puppies into the world, and then chose their homes. If, for whatever reason, that home turns out to be unsuitable, then the dog should be returned to the breeder for them to either keep, or find a suitable home for them. There wouldn't be any need for rescue then


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Why don't you like a contract?
> 
> A dog can be handed in anywhere, but when scanned, and the name of the owner and breeder comes up BOTH can be contacted, and if the owner has sold or moved the dog on, the breeder should then pick up the pieces. They chose to breed dogs, and bring *X* amount of puppies into the world, and then chose their homes. If, for whatever reason, that home turns out to be unsuitable, then the dog should be returned to the breeder for them to either keep, or find a suitable home for them. There wouldn't be any need for rescue then


as of today i have completed my micro-chipping course- and any litters i go out to do i'm going to be suggesting to the breeder that they put their number as a backup... but wonder how many will agree?!

personally, the thing i love most about contracts is that it means everything you are telling the owner is written in black and white, it means they have something to read over, agree to and sign. it means that when they're at the house meeting the pups they aren't overwhelmed with cute puppies And loads of information. (i put a puppy moving guide in my packs as well to recap all the info i give them as well)


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

_ i have completed my micro-chipping course- and any litters i go out to do i'm going to be suggesting to the breeder that they put their number as a backup... but wonder how many will agree?!_

Breeders will agree. Backyard breeders and those who produce puppies to sell? Possibly not.


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## Linda2147 (Sep 26, 2013)

she's looking for a really big litter, what if she has only two or three, will she keep breeding until she reaches the magic number of 13?

Large dogs tend to have larger litters, highly unlikely she'll get 13 from a first time breeding of two medium sized dogs.

Hope she doesn't get any.

But I'm glad to see people agree with my saying about microchipping


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

kodakkuki said:


> *as of today i have completed my micro-chipping course- and any litters i go out to do i'm going to be suggesting to the breeder that they put their number as a backup... but wonder how many will agree?!*
> 
> personally, the thing i love most about contracts is that it means everything you are telling the owner is written in black and white, it means they have something to read over, agree to and sign. it means that when they're at the house meeting the pups they aren't overwhelmed with cute puppies And loads of information. (i put a puppy moving guide in my packs as well to recap all the info i give them as well)


Is that available? I know petlog were bringing out the facility to register the breeder as a backup but weren't planning on implementing it until microchipping became compulsory. I would definitely use it and tried to when I had my last litter. I can't see why they can't have a breeder as the backup on their system anyway, but sadly they said no.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> Is that available? I know petlog were bringing out the facility to register the breeder as a backup but weren't planning on implementing it until microchipping became compulsory. I would definitely use it and tried to when I had my last litter. I can't see why they can't have a breeder as the backup on their system anyway, but sadly they said no.


for now it will mostly be if they wasn't their number added in the 'work' box etc. 
when it is compulsory where? it already is here :thumbup1:


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Westy said:


> Backyard breeders and those who produce puppies to sell? Possibly not.


People who breed dogs to sell, regardless of how many litters per year, need to be licensed. It's not commonly known though, and most local authorities don't enforce it.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> People who breed dogs to sell, regardless of how many litters per year, need to be licensed. It's not commonly known though, and most local authorities don't enforce it.


Licensing has never worked. It was scrapped in the UK because it never worked, it's compulsory in the republic of Ireland, but not adhered to. Licensing isn't the answer, sold under contract to me is a better answer, although still not fool proof.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Licensing has never worked. It was scrapped in the UK because it never worked, it's compulsory in the republic of Ireland, but not adhered to. Licensing isn't the answer, sold under contract to me is a better answer, although still not fool proof.


Breeder's licences, issues by local councils, are very much still in use. It's usually a red flag not to buy a puppy from a licenced breeder. My point was that anyone who breeds dogs just to sell, even if they don't breed the usual "five litters a year or more", should be licensed as well. If this was enforced by councils, then a lot of BYBs would vanish overnight, and anyone thinking of breeding just for money would probably think twice.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> Breeder's licences, issues by local councils, are very much still in use. It's usually a red flag not to buy a puppy from a licenced breeder. My point was that anyone who breeds dogs just to sell, even if they don't breed the usual "five litters a year or more", should be licensed as well. If this was enforced by councils, then a lot of BYBs would vanish overnight, and anyone thinking of breeding just for money would probably think twice.


But they're not working, ask anyone who buys a dog in NI, and the problem over there is at least as bad as in the UK.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> But they're not working, ask anyone who buys a dog in NI, and the problem over there is at least as bad as in the UK.


I think you're confusing the Dog Licence (as we once had here, and they still have in NI) with Breeding Licences issued by councils....? 

https://www.gov.uk/dog-breeding-licence-england-scotland-wales
Dog Breeding Licence - it mentions 5 litters or more, but also applies to anyone breeding dogs purely to sell.


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## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

I would not want my little pug going back to the breeder if he got lost,that breeder was going to drown him in a bucket because he was the runt and had numerous problems when he was born and would cost to much to treat him he wasn't even going to do it humanly I would rather he ended up being PTS than go back to people like that.He is micro chipped to me and wears a tag with my own and 2 of my childrens numbers on it both of whom would willingly take him in if anything happened to me


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

I would not want my rescue Lurcher going back to to the "breeder" they sold him to a family who wanted him as a present for their 4 yr olds birthday, he did what puppies do and then got shut outside, then sold on to someone else ,he cried alot in new home ,so got moved on again, then they got fed up with what was by then SA issues, so he ended up with a rescue, hes now with me ,his SA is alot better but he is a timed lad and any slight thing upsets/unsettles him and the SA comes out even more, i doubt the person who bred him who have taken him back,


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

hazel pritchard said:


> i doubt the person who bred him who have taken him back,


I think that would sort the sheep from the goats.... ideally, any breeders who would not/could not take back dogs they bred would hopefully end up having to stop breeding so many.

And if it was a legal requirement - or at the very least, and dog could be traced back to its progenitor - it might stop breeding for "fun" or "because we wanted her to have a litter" or "It's his right to have sex".

At the moment, there is no comeback on the breeders of the (few) dogs that do attack, maim and kill - yes, some of that is probably the dog's upbringing, but in an ideal world some responsibility should rest with the person or persons who chose to breed that dog - I am sure knowledge of genetics, temperament, positive training methods and puppy socialisation programmes are not in the forefront when people choose to breed their dog with their friend's dog, or one down the road.


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## Linda2147 (Sep 26, 2013)

If I were a breeder, which I am not, I would be so fussy where my pups went I'd wind up keeping them all. I'd never be able to sleep at night not knowing where they were or whats happening to them.

How do these people sleep at night selling or giving a dog to the first one that comes along that wants it? Or has the price they are asking. Boggles the mind how some people will do anything for money


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Linda2147 said:


> How do these people sleep at night selling or giving a dog to the first one that comes along that wants it? Or has the price they are asking. Boggles the mind how some people will do anything for money


I really don't know - but the Facebook selling pages are FULL of them.

If you need a bit of cash, then breed from your dog/cat/reptile/rodent - I don't think animals have been exploited to this degree since Victorian times.... and probably then it wasn't so bad - if your dog was stolen, you went to Club Row in Shoreditch to see if it was up for sale in the animal market there. When I lived in the area, if your bicycle got stolen, you kept an eye out for it in the market - a couple of people I knew found theirs.


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## Kirstyrebe (Jan 20, 2014)

I would love to be a breeder, but one Ronnie's too young lol and two I don't have a clue


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> I think you're confusing the Dog Licence (as we once had here, and they still have in NI) with Breeding Licences issued by councils....?
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/dog-breeding-licence-england-scotland-wales
> Dog Breeding Licence - it mentions 5 litters or more, but also applies to anyone breeding dogs purely to sell.


I get what you're saying, but if they can't control anything as simple as owning dog = dog licence, how on earth would they police breeders separately? What about all these people who claim their dog got pregnant *accidentally*?



Rosie64 said:


> I would not want my little pug going back to the breeder if he got lost,that breeder was going to drown him in a bucket because he was the runt and had numerous problems when he was born and would cost to much to treat him he wasn't even going to do it humanly I would rather he ended up being PTS than go back to people like that.He is micro chipped to me and wears a tag with my own and 2 of my childrens numbers on it both of whom would willingly take him in if anything happened to me





hazel pritchard said:


> I would not want my rescue Lurcher going back to to the "breeder" they sold him to a family who wanted him as a present for their 4 yr olds birthday, he did what puppies do and then got shut outside, then sold on to someone else ,he cried alot in new home ,so got moved on again, then they got fed up with what was by then SA issues, so he ended up with a rescue, hes now with me ,his SA is alot better but he is a timed lad and any slight thing upsets/unsettles him and the SA comes out even more, i doubt the person who bred him who have taken him back,


But in your cases, you aren't going to rehome your dogs in any case, and I'm sure if you were ever in the position, and *if* a theoretical contract of sale were in place and you didn't want to return the pups, that's when rescue would perhaps still have a place. For me, if I found out any of Tau's pups were to be rehomed without my consent or knowledge, I would darn well kick up a fuss and want to be involved, and if I didn't agree, I would go and get them back, buy them back if necessary. But for those who bred your dogs, I doubt if they'd give two hoots if you rehomed them onwards. That said, if they were under obligation right from the point of sale, they may think twice about the responsibility they have on them to ensure pups stay in a good home for life.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> ...if [the authorities] can't control anything as simple as owning dog = dog licence,
> how on earth would they police breeders separately?
> 
> What about all these people who claim their dog got pregnant *accidentally*?


While I lived in VA Beach, neighboring Norfolk had a fantastic head of their formerly-moribund ACC,
who was involved, pro-active, & used nonstandard methods. I was deeply envious, :lol: as VB's ACC
was not only an outdated, tired, undersized physical plant, but a bog-standard shelter Admin was not
helping much; only a very-active all volunteer group of citizens in Va Beach made conditions better,
& reduced the shelter's euthanasia rate. [BTW, after i moved to Norfolk some years after Mark left for
greener pastures & better ACCs, Va Beach built a new ACC shelter for several million dollars - so their
physical plant is vastly improved, & i can only hope their policies have, too.]

One of Mark's BEST EVER ideas was to make it mandatory that anyone who bred a litter, even if they
were GIVEN away & not sold, *must have a permit from the city to rear that litter, legally -*
& moreover, by signing the permit application, they agreed to make their premises *inspectable*
for the entire duration, from the permit's purchase till the last pup or kitten departed, whether that
was a cash transaction, a giveaway, surrendered to a shelter or rescue, whatever the case.

It was a wonderfully-effective measure; many cases of underage sales, illegal interstate
transit of underage pups & kittens, poor care [spoiled food, maggot-ridden food, dirty water, exposure
to the elements, filthy cages, parasites, etc], & more, WENT TO COURT - altho in some cases,
a warning & some education sufficed to get the animals decent care & proper housing, & those cases
did not go to prosecution, they were resolved.

MANY profiteers were unconvered, & i was personally delighted to help on several occasions - 
my favorite was the report from a client that when she was looking for her puppy, she went to an apt
in Norfolk where there were 2 litters that she described as "living in bunny cages", & she didn't buy
a pup there, she was very disturbed by the encounter. I reported it, she gave me the phone-number in
the advertisement, Norfolk ACC followed up, & 2 underage litters FROM NORTH CAROLINA were
confiscated, with leg & paw injuries from living on WIRE FLOORS in bunny-hutches in a living room!
:thumbup: 
The pups were given vet-care, fostered in volunteer homes as litters, & later placed in screened
adoptive homes, fully recovered & doing well.

Meanwhile...
Federal charges for underage interstate USDA-violations as well as failure to obtain a city-permit, 
PLUS animal-cruelty charges on the vendor... :w00t: Score! :001_tt1:

Making the premises inspectable was the crucial factor; being able to SEE where dams & litters were
kept, what they were fed, how they were housed, if the area was clean or dirty, were pups clean,
were kittens' eyes clear or full of gunk, did the babies have diarrhea, etc, etc.
*It was brilliant, & i was a genuine fan of the ACC director.*


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> While I lived in VA Beach, neighboring Norfolk had a fantastic head of their formerly-moribund ACC,
> who was involved, pro-active, & used nonstandard methods. I was deeply envious, :lol: as VB's ACC
> was not only an outdated, tired, undersized physical plant, but a bog-standard shelter Admin was not
> helping much; only a very-active all volunteer group of citizens in Va Beach made conditions better,
> ...


This IS brilliant - I don't know how easy it will have been to enforce, but if it helps a single pip it is worth it. I don't think that councils have the same degree of autonomy here in the UK, unfortunately.

How was it monitored? Obviously people like that lady reported 'dodgy' litters, but there must have dozens of people who just ignored the rule - did the dog rescue staff monitor adverts etc. I'm sorry - this must seem like I'm looking for difficulties, but O actually think it is an amazing idea, and would love to know how to put it into practice.

Here in UK the councils can introduce bye-laws that apply only to their own areas, and I would love to think that it could be done here - with dogs AND cats - all animals, really.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lostbear said:


> This IS brilliant - I don't know how easy it will have been to enforce, but if it helps a single pip it is worth it.
> I don't think that councils have the same degree of autonomy here in the UK, unfortunately.
> 
> How was it monitored? Obviously people like that lady reported 'dodgy' litters, but there must have [been]
> ...


Mostly it was simply via citizen complaints - ill-kept pups or kittens that were advertised for sale,
& the prospective buyers were sufficiently bothered to report it. NO COURT TIME was required of the
person reporting the problem; they didn't have to testify, etc, the ACOs who went to the address were
the witnesses who took care of proceedings, since the lack of permit if there was indeed a litter on
the premises, was an immediate violation.

Sometimes they conducted stings: phone the reported ad / number, pose as a buyer, get access,
then send a uniformed ACO to the door with a summons. But the difference was pretty much immediately
apparent, in the DROP in classified ads selling pups, kittens, ferrets, Guinea pigs, etc, from Norfolk #s
& Norfolk addresses - the newspaper-ads went down [which didn't make the Va'n Pilot happy, but ah, well -
ya can't please 'em all.  ]

Here's a copy of the ordinance, which was simply a broadening of existing code to include ANYone
who sells or offers a 'companion animal' - in their home, on the street, at a park, in a flea-market,
out of a car-trunk in a parking lot, whoever, wherever in Norfolk city-limits:


> Sec. 6.1-9.
> Permits for companion pet dealers, grooming salons, pet shops, or sale of pets.
> 
> (a)
> ...


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> Mostly it was simply via citizen complaints - ill-kept pups or kittens that were advertised for sale,
> & the prospective buyers were sufficiently bothered to report it. NO COURT TIME was required of the
> person reporting the problem; they didn't have to testify, etc, the ACOs who went to the address were
> the witnesses who took care of proceedings, since the lack of permit if there was indeed a litter on
> ...


Abso-bliddy-lutely brilliant! Thank you


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

guest2014 said:


> Yes we got them checked by the vet in the view to breed them.
> My dog is a spaniel her dog is a poodle.
> 
> The up to 13 puppies will go to family and friends and we both want to keep a puppy. We both would love another dog and as our dogs are getting on so well and we do believe the puppies would be of lovely temperament and character and we have so many family and friends who would love to have a dog from the union we decided to try and breed them.
> ...


As you are breeding Cockapoos :

Should I breed? - Cockapoo Owners Club UK

http://www.cockapooowners-club.org.uk/health-tests.html


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Health Tests - Cockapoo Owners Club UK


i don't *know* this to be a fact, but i strongly suspect the AVAR list of heritable conditions
in each parent breed [see the alphabetical list i posted above, which lists both English & (American) Cockers]
will include more items. I'll copy each & compare them, in a later post - i'm prepping for a 3-day trip. 

Each number in AVAR's list after thebreed-name is a specific heritable condition; some are testable, 
some can be tested for carrier / affected, others may be either un-testable as yet, or may appear later 
than the advised *earliest breeding-age of 24-MO / 2-YO*. However, statistically speaking,
over 85% of all heritable-conditions, whether testable or not, will be symptomatic in affected dogs 
by age 2, which still leaves under 15% hidden / not yet symptomatic, but it certainly helps!

Plus, *delaying a first-breeding for both sexes until at least age 2 adds an average of two years
to the lifespan of the pups* - an exceedingly-powerful effect, for a relatively simple & cheap option.


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## Rescuegirl86 (Mar 15, 2014)

The offa.com will show you the recommended genetic testing that should be done on specific breeds. Please look into this.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

guest2014 said:


> And no neither of *our dogs have been bread before* as we are dog owners and lovers not "breeders" as in trying to get out as many dogs as possible of our dogs.


OP, I'm curious. Neither of your dogs have been bread before, but have they been any other form of carbohydrate? Pasta? Rice? Potatoes?


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Any form of carbohydrate is fine - as long as they aren't *inbread*


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

but it's best if they're well bread


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Thank you for the clarification


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