# cat labour?



## grace88 (Jul 8, 2016)

My BSH is approx day 58, shes showing signs of going into labour, kittens moving more, purring, grooming more etc. I think going off her last litter they will be here by tomorrow.
2nd and final litter for her. The first appeared on day 67, but this litter has been scanned and there is 5-7 approx possibly 8, so a big litter. I do not expect all live. They were last week on the scan. Her first she had 5 live, 1 stillborn. 

How viable are the kittens if she goes tonght/tomorrow (day 59?) anyone any words of wisdom?

apparently me telling her to close her legs isnt working!

Before anyone jumps on me, shes active/as is the stud.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

If kittens are born before day 61 they may not have fully developed lungs but I seem to remember somebody who did rear kittens born before that gestation date. I stopped breeding 12 years ago and this was much earlier than that so sorry cannot recall any details.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

I've had a couple of cats go early during my time as a breeder. The first was 5 days early so, day 60. All three kittens survived. The second went a week early so day 58, she had four kittens all were born alive but one by one failed over the following two weeks until just one was left (he made it). However, in the case of the second incident it was became clear that there was an infection at play (Ecoli in this case). I didn't realise this until it was too late and I kick myself even now, that I didn't hit those kittens with antibiotics from the day they were born. Would they have all survived if I had?? Maybe not, but they'd have actually had a chance. 

Day 57 is said to be the absolute cut off point according to the books, so day 59 is comfortably in those parameters. That said I hope all goes well and she hangs on a little longer.


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## grace88 (Jul 8, 2016)

thank you we are now on day 59 and she is just chilling in her nest - no signs of contractions/she was restless last night so im just keeping my fingers crossed she can just keep them cooking a bit longer

last time she was "late", but i remember last time she did this and it was only 4ish days after she dropped her tummy she gave birth. So that would be friday/sat which is ideal for cooking time!!


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## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

We've had a girl have a litter of 7 and she carried to day 66 and I know that to be the exact date as we only do supervised matings usually 2 matings on the same day and no more. She could just be restless because she's uncomfortable which is normal. I'd just sit back and relax. She'll let you know when she's ready.


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## grace88 (Jul 8, 2016)

David C said:


> We've had a girl have a litter of 7 and she carried to day 66 and I know that to be the exact date as we only do supervised matings usually 2 matings on the same day and no more. She could just be restless because she's uncomfortable which is normal. I'd just sit back and relax. She'll let you know when she's ready.


 were they all live?!

id be made up if we get this big litter as its her last and shes being spayed once these are 12 weeks or so. She stayed with the stud for 6 days as she didnt takelast time we sent her but the breeder saw matings the sunday and monday (mostly sunday) hence her due date of sunday im keeping crossed for.

shes very very calm today and eating like a horse. the babies are wriggling like mad!


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## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

Yes they were all alive but two were very small and had to be tube fed for the first 10 days. You also need to keep your heating set to 22c, 24 hours a day at this time of year as the slightest drop in temperature can knock them back and you could end up loosing any smaller ones. In-between feeds of smaller ones make sure they are always cuddled in with the rest of the kittens and when the bigger kittens are sleeping gently hold the little ones to mums nipples so they get a chance to latch on and feed from mum as well. Be prepared to get very little sleep lol


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## grace88 (Jul 8, 2016)

thank you - oh yes the heating is being cranked up once she shows proper signs of dropping. Shes grooming herself loads today but i cant see any physical contractions. Just keeping my fingers crossed that shes going to wait another few days! she seems very chilled and not miowing and stalking me like her first ones.

Every day inside is a bonus! she has a heat mat too so literally cooking nicely! (not in the nest!)


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

We’ve only had one litter born early, on day 60. They were fine, milestones were all delayed by approx 5 days but otherwise raised like any other litter. 

Doesn’t sound like you’re girl will be going early, hope all goes well


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## grace88 (Jul 8, 2016)

spotty cats said:


> We’ve only had one litter born early, on day 60. They were fine, milestones were all delayed by approx 5 days but otherwise raised like any other litter.
> 
> Doesn’t sound like you’re girl will be going early, hope all goes well


hope your right!! were the day 60 litter ok?

we are day 60 tomorrow! so she just needs to squeeze them legs together! Ideally she waits even closer to christmas, the latest she can go is christmas day ! but my prediction was the 19th!


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

grace88 said:


> were the day 60 litter ok?


Yes they are fine, grew into lovely strapping boys.


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## grace88 (Jul 8, 2016)

day 60! her temp is now 37.5. i feel like they will be here in the next 24 hours but she has no contractions!? im only going off last litter! 

ive got 1 more meeting this afternoon and then im all hers for 6 weeks rather than 4. if she can just hang on!


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## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

Stop taking her temperature because all your doing is peeing her off. That temperature is within normal parameters. You won't see any contractions until just before birth . Just let her rest and do what she wants. Get a brandy and chill lol


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

If I were you...relax and put the thermometer away  You really cannot judge what will happen based upon past litters/how or when labour started and progressed previously.

I keep fairly detailed notes from each birth, year on year, and it's rare for there to be any appreciable similarities. I think setting yourself up for something to "happen" based only upon what happened previously is just going to make you anxious.


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## grace88 (Jul 8, 2016)

i know you are all right! I just don't want to miss it! Shes completely settled now, mabey she had a day when they were all shifting about and it was uncomfortable - god knows! but i do know - day 60 and shes keeping them cooking so im really pleased!
I will be even more pleased if we can get to day 63+


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## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

I bet she'll go to full term day 65 lol.
Weve had two girls go to day 68 and day 69 lol.


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## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

How are you and she doing?


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## grace88 (Jul 8, 2016)

she crawled onto my knee at 7.30am, then the contractions started. she wanted me there again (same last litter she waited!). Got her into her box and within 5 minutes out popped number 1! backwards...!

big kittens too. Currently on number 4, all live! Mum is amazing like last time, all have lovely homes lined up. I think shes having 7, but we willl see!


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## grace88 (Jul 8, 2016)

David C said:


> I bet she'll go to full term day 65 lol.
> Weve had two girls go to day 68 and day 69 lol.


day 66 ! you were right too! Im so so glad she hung on, mabey the kittens last week were just pressing on her bladder!


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## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

Pics when she's done and their all settled please


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## grace88 (Jul 8, 2016)

number 5  just had to give him/her a little helping hand, cleared the airway and a towel rub. Now all eating and sleeping. Mum is having a rest but she has movement still - im expecting around 7


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## grace88 (Jul 8, 2016)

David C said:


> Pics when she's done and their all settled please


how long is it normally till they are done? last/first litter was started 10am finished in the afternoon and then the next day early a still born?

shes a little star, wants a little scratch on her head and me here, so ive camped opposite the box but far enough away so she can see me, without disturbing her


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

grace88 said:


> how long is it normally till they are done? last/first litter was started 10am finished in the afternoon and then the next day early a still born?
> 
> shes a little star, wants a little scratch on her head and me here, so ive camped opposite the box but far enough away so she can see me, without disturbing her


It varies.  Years ago I fostered a cat who had a 10-hour gap before the last kitten, and with one of my own cats I thought she had finished, went to bed and the next morning there was another kitten who could have been born over 12 hours after the previous one. But mostly they have been done with about 30-60 minutes between kittens, so if 7 kittens that's over 6 hours.


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## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

Each litter is different I've had girls litter 5 in as little as 4 hours to deliver them all then others go up to 4 hours between kittens having a good rest between each one. One of our girls took 14 hours to deliver 3, she cleaned up each one and went to sleep for a few hours between each kitten and even had some food before delivering number 3 lol. Her second litter she had 3 again and delivered them all within 1 hour 40 minutes. It can be quite normal for them to have quite a long rest between each kitten.


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## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

How many dod she finish on


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## grace88 (Jul 8, 2016)

5! shes stopped then jut very big kittens

they are currently on just vet bed in a box out of drafts - is that enough or would you pad up with blankets too? i left them alone for 24 hours to bond before i changed the dirty vet bed


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## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

grace88 said:


> 5! shes stopped then jut very big kittens
> 
> they are currently on just vet bed in a box out of drafts - is that enough or would you pad up with blankets too? i left them alone for 24 hours to bond before i changed the dirty vet bed


You need to make sure they are warm, heating needs to be on 24 hours a day set at 22c in the room where she is with them. Slightest chill can knock them back and you could eld up loosi g them. Re vet bed make sure you change it every couple of days .


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

grace88 said:


> 5! shes stopped then jut very big kittens
> 
> they are currently on just vet bed in a box out of drafts - is that enough or would you pad up with blankets too? i left them alone for 24 hours to bond before i changed the dirty vet bed


Blankets can be a hazard as kittens can get stuck / lost in the folds unless you put them in a pillow case. Vetbed is ideal as moisture goes right through.

I used to use a large cardboard box with the flaps folded over and an access hole at one end for the mother. I also set up a webcam so I could see what was going on in it - it was quite interesting at times! The box with flaps folded over protects from drafts so I've never found the need to crank the heating up, except during kittening at night. In an insulated, draft-free fairly small place (which the box is) their mothers body heat keeps them warm. Sometimes I put a heat pad in, if you do that you MUST make sure there is room for mother and kittens to move off it. If the mother is too warm she will tend to stay out of the box.

Weight them in grams at about the same time each day and keep a record. They should put on 10g or more per day. One kitten not gaining is usually a problem with that kitten, the whole litter not gaining is a problem with the mother. And when you weigh them also check her breasts to be sure there is no sign of mastitis, and for any obvious vaginal discharge. A few drops is normal and the queen usually cleans it up very quickly but a heavy discharge especially if noxious needs the vet.


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## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> Blankets can be a hazard as kittens can get stuck / lost in the folds unless you put them in a pillow case. Vetbed is ideal as moisture goes right through.
> 
> I used to use a large cardboard box with the flaps folded over and an access hole at one end for the mother. I also set up a webcam so I could see what was going on in it - it was quite interesting at times! The box with flaps folded over protects from drafts so I've never found the need to crank the heating up, except during kittening at night. In an insulated, draft-free fairly small place (which the box is) their mothers body heat keeps them warm.


did you leave your heating on over night if you had a winter litter?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

David C said:


> did you leave your heating on over night if you had a winter litter?


Not at 22C. They are fine in their box at 16C. My heating is on a programable room thermostat so it never goes below 16C where the thermostat is. But flaps folded over and a small an entrance as the queen needed before kittening is vital.


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## grace88 (Jul 8, 2016)

thanks all - their mum still hasnt had a poo?? shes had a wee and eating/drinking and completely normal and wil leave her kittens for cuddles and wanderng round the house but no sign of a poo? should i be concerned yet?

ive locked her other 2 friends away for now in the catio outside in the day and night in a spare room just so she has bonding time with her kittens - im thinking a good week before they are back integrating?! or am i being too precious?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Sometimes they hold on especially if they think the litter tray is too close. Did she eat any placentas?


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## grace88 (Jul 8, 2016)

OrientalSlave said:


> Sometimes they hold on especially if they think the litter tray is too close. Did she eat any placentas?


all of them - shes as quick as a flash with them, i was there fror all births but im sure thats her birth highight!

just weighed them, range from 105 - 156g

the littr tray is upstairs - always has been and she would fume if it was moved


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## grace88 (Jul 8, 2016)

updated; kittens are now 4 days old and biggest is 195g, they are chunky things. Weighing them daily now and most are gaining 15g or more per day, one is 30g a day and a big thing.

Totally in love with them and their new parents are going to be thrilled. I do not know how I am going to let the 4 go!


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## grace88 (Jul 8, 2016)

OrientalSlave said:


> Not at 22C. They are fine in their box at 16C. My heating is on a programable room thermostat so it never goes below 16C where the thermostat is. But flaps folded over and a small an entrance as the queen needed before kittening is vital.


UPdate on the kittens. we lost one. One started to fade today after doing so well. Had some milk supplement at the ready but unfortunately it turned out the kitten had no anus. I handled the kittens and their mum cleaned them well but until yesterday when it dropped weight it was not something i considered to check for. I will now.

I took him/;her to the vet and had him PTS. learning curve all round and incredibly sad. The other 4 are thriving and huge betwen 210- 250g at 6 days old.

I feel absolutely terrible. The bill from the vet was over £400, so for anyone thinking of breeding too - big bills are a big reality - (something i did account for).


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I'm so sorry. I know how heartbreaking this is having experienced it twice myself.

Atresia ani has four 'types' though they are variable and is linked with other congenital abnormalities. it is known to be genetically inherited and it would be very unwise to keep a kitten for future breeding from this litter.


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## grace88 (Jul 8, 2016)

gskinner123 said:


> I'm so sorry. I know how heartbreaking this is having experienced it twice myself.
> 
> Atresia ani has four 'types' though they are variable and is linked with other congenital abnormalities. it is known to be genetically inherited and it would be very unwise to keep a kitten for future breeding from this litter.



its like a double whammy this. I breed for hobby and they are a genuine excellent example of the breed. Im regularly complimented on my kitten and her mother.

the mother was being spayed this time anyhow after litter 2 but (un)forortunately i kept her daughter from the last/first litter as a keeper.

what are the chances of this with her daugher? I have read it is very rare, but not something want to repeat again for the sake of the litter suffering.

The litter will stay until 12 weeks anyhow and they are whoppers already so I will spay/neuter before they go (3 girls/1 boy left)


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

grace88 said:


> <snip>
> 
> I feel absolutely terrible. The bill from the vet was over £400, so for anyone thinking of breeding too - big bills are a big reality - (something i did account for).


Was this out of hours? If normal hours I can't think how a bill that large was run up. Vet examines kitten, tries to take it's temperature and discovers the defect. Vet tells you and euthanises kitten. I had a kitten with a cleft palate, it was quite a few years back, it was a cheap vet but cost me under £50.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

grace88 said:


> its like a double whammy this. I breed for hobby and they are a genuine excellent example of the breed. Im regularly complimented on my kitten and her mother.
> 
> the mother was being spayed this time anyhow after litter 2 but (un)forortunately i kept her daughter from the last/first litter as a keeper.
> 
> ...


I do wonder who is complementing you. Someone who shows BSH? 

If you decide to breed the daughter use a stud who is unrelated to her father. I would look further back than the 4 generations on the stud's pedigree. I'd want to be going back 6 generations. Pawpeds might help:



The British Shorthair Database


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## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

Out of interest which registry do you use , what colours are the kittens and parents?


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## grace88 (Jul 8, 2016)

OrientalSlave said:


> Was this out of hours? If normal hours I can't think how a bill that large was run up. Vet examines kitten, tries to take it's temperature and discovers the defect. Vet tells you and euthanises kitten. I had a kitten with a cleft palate, it was quite a few years back, it was a cheap vet but cost me under £50.


yes - the consult alone was 225 quid + euthanasia which i think is a rip off. I am sure less kinder people would laugh at this expense and not pay it, but I could not let any animal suffer.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

grace88 said:


> I breed for hobby and they are a genuine excellent example of the breed. Im regularly complimented on my kitten and her mother.


As we are all hobby breeders no one had suggested otherwise. Are all the comments from renowned show judges at events or pet people commenting on a photo?



grace88 said:


> what are the chances of this with her daugher?


Is the sire of this litter the same? Have you gone over the whole pedigree and each of those litters health? 




David C said:


> Out of interest which registry do you use , what colours are the kittens and parents?


That is apparently a big secret 😊 GS had asked similarly in another thread too with no response.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Grace, as someone very involved for a long time at (GCCF) club and BAC level and with a large number of BSH breeder/friend acquaintances, I do tend to get to hear of a lot of (potential) breed related issues. I sometimes think therefore that I might classify something as more common than it actually is in reality.


So I'm not sure how to define 'common'. What I can say is

- I don't believe it is more frequently seen in BSH;

- there are very few BSH breeders I know who haven't experienced atresia ani at some point though as you'd expect, the longer you breed, the more likely you are to experience various issues. 

- it is certainly inherited. One may breed for years and never see it but then acquire a different breed line, as most of us do at some point via going out to stud or buying a kitten, and if the issue is present, you could expect to see it, in one or more of its various forms, on a frequent basis. For example, I had five kittens in an 18 month period affected to some degree or another. We managed to save only one via a veterinary procedure.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

I do agree that thinking something as more common than it actually is in reality does happen quite often. The breeding world is so small that you don't need to hear about something from many people to think the issue must be widespread.

Unfortunately if you have any inherited issue it is seen far more commonly in the world of pedigree breeding than in the species at large, simply due to the small number of often related individuals who make up that breed. Few breeds have a wide genetic base, a lot started from one to five individuals who were bred together then to their own offspring etc, until enough animals were available to start moving away from parent-child and sibling-sibling matings. 

AA is rare, apparently affecting less than 1% of any species (including humans) and it is thought to be recessively inherited, which is probably why it's not seen that often. I have seen AA twice while breeding the Persians, but never while breeding the Birmans, which I did for considerably longer. If you are unlucky enough to start off with a line that has recessive issues lurking you will almost certainly see it at some point, probably more than once.


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## grace88 (Jul 8, 2016)

They are not registered - pedigree but not registered, apparently a big crime here  hence why i did not say earlier

They are all being spayed/neutered so this line will not continue anyhow


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## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

grace88 said:


> They are not registered - pedigree but not registered, apparently a big crime here  hence why i did not say earlier
> 
> They are all being spayed/neutered so this line will not continue anyhow


I had a feeling this was the case. I'm presuming they came from un registered parents also seeing as yours aren't registered so very likely not had and dna testing before they bred your cats and I presume you haven't done so either so probably best they are being neutered. I would suggest if you want to get into the hobby properly then get intouch with good registered breedrs and get yourself a mentor who would be willing to help you along the right path with the breed.


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## grace88 (Jul 8, 2016)

David C said:


> I had a feeling this was the case. I'm presuming they came from un registered parents also seeing as yours aren't registered so very likely not had and dna testing before they bred your cats and I presume you haven't done so either so probably best they are being neutered. I would suggest if you want to get into the hobby properly then get intouch with good registered breedrs and get yourself a mentor who would be willing to help you along the right path with the breed.


thanks - i'm not intending to breed again for a very long time. I have a busy career kicking off once these kitties go, but once I do I will get a good mentor and buy an active kitten, same breed or a MC potentially once I have more space.

FWIW - they all had homes before I bred, but now I have less kittens to homes!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

grace88 said:


> ....
> 
> FWIW - they all had homes before I bred, but now I have less kittens to homes!


That's one reason I never bothered looking for homes until my kittens were 10 or more weeks old


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