# Im gutted and need advice



## sharon_gurney (Jan 27, 2010)

Hi guys 

Im soo gutted and wanted some advice. Last week I bought a new Siamese girl for showing and breeding (yes shes active)

Ive just been to the vets to have blood tests done to make sure everything is A ok, and they have spotted a tiny umbilical hernia, they only spotted it when they had to hold her really tightly to take bloods, and then it popped out.

The vet said that he was sure that this was hereditry and could be passed on to future litters.

So ive rang the breeder who is taking her back tonight, she has offerd me another kitten from a different litter.....what do you think?


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_oh how awful, i can understand why your gutted,you must of bonded with her, and to have to return her must be so upsetting, if your taking her back tonight, why not have a look at the the other litter and see how you feel, _


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Kittens get health checks when they go for vaccinations and you've said yourself this could not have been noticed unless the kitten was being stressed and to a certain extent 'squeezed' in order to take blood. It isn't easy to take blood from a kitten and it's something I wouldn't do unless there was good reason. If there is something specific you believe may be wrong with kittens from this breeder perhaps you could ask for tests to be done before you take another. If there isn't, why subject such a young kitten to speculative testing?


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## sharon_gurney (Jan 27, 2010)

havoc said:


> Kittens get health checks when they go for vaccinations and you've said yourself this could not have been noticed unless the kitten was being stressed and to a certain extent 'squeezed' in order to take blood. It isn't easy to take blood from a kitten and it's something I wouldn't do unless there was good reason. If there is something specific you believe may be wrong with kittens from this breeder perhaps you could ask for tests to be done before you take another. If there isn't, why subject such a young kitten to speculative testing?


I dont expect anything to be wrong with them, but Im purchasing a kitten from a breeder I dont really know anything about, a kitten which eventually I would like to use for breeding. Iam only safeguarding my own intrests as well as the wellbeing of the kitten. Lets face it if they hadnt taken blood this morning this hernia would not have been spotted. I would of gone on to breed from her and then possibly produced kitten with hernias themselves.

I think this brief discomfort for the kitten is worth it in the long run for all concerned.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Yes the consensus of opinion does seem to be that these have a hereditary aspect, one of the registries refuses to have cats with umbilical hernias registered for breeding, and when I recently heard that the Burnese boy I was buying in from Spain had developed a hernia and been neutered (I was gutted too!) my vet said that was probably the right decision for the breeder and her vet to have made. At least you have the option of another kitten, all the others from the breeder I was buying from had already gone 

Liz


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## sharon_gurney (Jan 27, 2010)

lizward said:


> Yes the consensus of opinion does seem to be that these have a hereditary aspect, one of the registries refuses to have cats with umbilical hernias registered for breeding, and when I recently heard that the Burnese boy I was buying in from Spain had developed a hernia and been neutered (I was gutted too!) my vet said that was probably the right decision for the breeder and her vet to have made. At least you have the option of another kitten, all the others from the breeder I was buying from had already gone
> 
> Liz


sorry to hear you missed out on your kitten too, Im disapointed, but prob relieved as well, I would have hated to get 12 months down the road and find out the news. I suppose its the same for you too


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Yes well that is true.

Liz


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Lets face it if they hadnt taken blood this morning this hernia would not have been spotted


Absolutely agree. What I don't understand is why you didn't ask the breeder to carry out these tests if you were in any way concerned. The hernia would then have been discovered before you took the kitten.

Presumably if the blood tests show up FeLV/FIV/FCoV (or whatever else you may be looking for) you would also be wanting to return the kitten. Why put yourself through this? Surely the smart way is to buy a kitten already tested and clear of anything you may be concerned about. You may have to wait until the kitten is older than normal before it comes to you but that's got to be better than going through the misery of this returns process.


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## Kattkinkatt (Sep 13, 2011)

Hi
I know how you feel. I recently booked a kitten who was to be my first stud cat, and at 9 weeks he was found to have a small hernia.
Whilst there is no proof that they are herditary, there does seem to be enough evidence to suggest they are not breed from to minamize the risk.
Luckly i had not had my little man, and was able to get one from a differant litter instead, who has now come to live with us, and is well settled.

I would have a look at the other litter, but don't feel pressured if they are not what you want (colour, type etc), better to wait if you are not sure.

x


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## chrissy1982 (Jan 27, 2011)

OK this is what i dont like about pedagree cats/kittens/breeding you all bang on at us who have had moggy pregnacys BUT you take a kitten back because its not 100% perfect now what will happen to that poor poor kitten as hes not 100% perfect will he even get a home because hes a pedagree and not 100% im not haveing a go at op because obviously it wasnt what she wanted but its 1 rule for 1 and another for others at the end of the day a kitten is a kitten not a item you can return because it dont look right 1 of my little kittens had a hurnia vet didnt even notice it i did and ask the vet later he said its nothing to worry about it wont affect the cat in any way


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## Bonnie82 (May 4, 2011)

chrissy1982 said:


> OK this is what i dont like about pedagree cats/kittens/breeding you all bang on at us who have had moggy pregnacys BUT you take a kitten back because its not 100% perfect now what will happen to that poor poor kitten as hes not 100% perfect will he even get a home because hes a pedagree and not 100% im not haveing a go at op because obviously it wasnt what she wanted but its 1 rule for 1 and another for others at the end of the day a kitten is a kitten not a item you can return because it dont look right 1 of my little kittens had a hurnia vet didnt even notice it i did and ask the vet later he said its nothing to worry about it wont affect the cat in any way


The OP chose the kitten as a breeding queen and you do tend to pay a lot more if you're intending to breed from a kitten. I expect the kitten she is returning will be re-sold as a pet, but I am sure that a pedigree kitten will not have any trouble finding a home as a pet, especially as the "defect" is not one that is likely to affect the cat's health. The OP was not looking for another pet but for a breeding queen and as she will be unable to breed from this kitten, it does make logical sense to return her and choose another.

It would be irresponsible for a breeder to knowingly breed from a cat with a condition that could be passed down to future generations. Regardless of whether or not the umbilical hernia actually affects the cat's quality of life, it is not something that should be knowingly passed down the line IMHO. Clearly the OP is very upset but she went into the purchase of this kitten expecting a breeding queen so I don't think she should be criticised for her decision. If she had bought the kitten as a pet and was returning it for this reason then fair enough, I could see your point, but the kitten was not bought as a pet.

I really don't think that this can be compared to moggy pregnancies...


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## K337 (May 20, 2011)

Bonnie82 said:


> I really don't think that this can be compared to moggy pregnancies...


Exactly! The OP is clearly being cautious and responsible about breeding by eliminating a possible defect from the gene pool, even if it's not a proven trait. This is done to help the next generation of kittens and the complete opposite from letting moggies have litters where this kind of selection criteria generally doesn't exist. Getting as close to possible as 100% perfect should be the whole aim of breeding.

As chrissy1982's vet said, removing a hernia is generally a straight forward procedure and shouldn't affect the cat. Not at all suitable for a breeding queen, but will still make a beautiful little neutered girl cat who no doubt will be a loving pet.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Many times I have heard folk say that there are times when things go wrong even for good breeders! This reads to me *just that*!
I understand why you have brought the kitten and the importance of everything being being perfect! But personally I could not take it back myself! If the breeding and the showing of the animal were more important to me then the kitten itself then I would have hoped that the breeder would have discounted me another kitten that was right for my purpose and encouraged me to keep the first one! But then thats me!! And my pets ain't possessions to me but part of my family!

And no offence here - but if I were the breeder I would thinkvery very carefully about provviding you with another kitten and would be more then happy to give you a full refund!
DT


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

The thing is you can't keep them all! Maybe the OP only has room for one more breeding queen and to keep the original kitten as a pet and then buy in another breeding queen may mean that she can't then keep any of the queen's kittens should she want to. There is always a problem of space and how much attention you can give your cats - a.n.other neutered cat might just be the breaking point. And I know you are all going to say well don't breed then but that isn't going to further each breed and make it as healthy as possible because then no one would breed and cats would die out. 

As a breeder the OP is thinking about the health of the kittens to come first. SHe doesn't want to pass onto the kittens a problem that is hereditary. And quite right too. Health is the way to go. How many moggy 'breeders' do all the relevant health test, snap test both the queen and the stud before mating, and make sure that the inbreeding quotient is negligible? etc etc. Most just let little missy out the door, having got the girl in that area, and she goes off and mates the local tom who is most likely her father or brother!


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

chrissy1982 said:


> OK this is what i dont like about pedagree cats/kittens/breeding you all bang on at us who have had moggy pregnacys BUT you take a kitten back because its not 100% perfect now what will happen to that poor poor kitten as hes not 100% perfect will he even get a home because hes a pedagree and not 100% im not haveing a go at op because obviously it wasnt what she wanted but its 1 rule for 1 and another for others at the end of the day a kitten is a kitten not a item you can return because it dont look right 1 of my little kittens had a hurnia vet didnt even notice it i did and ask the vet later he said its nothing to worry about it wont affect the cat in any way


Don't be daft :/ Hernias have a very strong hereditary component. You'd probably be one of the first in line to critcise a pedigree breeder for knowingly breeding from a cat which has a fault. A tiny umbilical hernia may not seem like a huge problem and, in fact, it isn't as they are easily repaired at the same time as the cat is spayed. What you mighn't understand is that a tiny umbilical hernia is almost always a small manifestation of an inherited 'condition' which, at worst, can lead to kittens being born with... well, won't go into that now as it's almost tea time


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## chrissy1982 (Jan 27, 2011)

i takeit what youre refering to ah oh i wont say its tea timeis what 1 ofmy kitten diead from 20mins after being born ( bowl on the outside ) and it was the sister to the boy who has a small hurnia .

I understand thenot breeding from her as it can be passed on and im not compareing it to moggy breeding i just say you have a go at us for it but then are fast to return a unperfect kitten 

its the kitten i feel for thats all i was just worried that was it for her as shes not perfect so she wont get a home  

all apart from 1ofmy kitten have homes now and they have all gone to friends who i have made clear the kittens must get done as we all live sooooo close to one another if they get out their paths will cross 
also my mummys and the 2 kittens im keeping will be done


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

chrissy1982 said:


> i takeit what youre refering to ah oh i wont say its tea timeis what 1 ofmy kitten diead from 20mins after being born ( bowl on the outside ) and it was the sister to the boy who has a small hurnia .
> 
> I understand thenot breeding from her as it can be passed on and im not compareing it to moggy breeding i just say you have a go at us for it but then are fast to return a unperfect kitten
> 
> ...


Yes, that was what I meant; intestines outside the body cavity. But, to be honest, otherwise I'm not really sure what you're talking about, re 'have a go at us for it'. For what?

You seem to be overlooking the crucial point. Sharon, it seems, has decided not to breed from this kitten because it is the responsible thing to do.. or rather not do. I'd feel pretty certain, hernia aside, that the kitten wasn't perfect in either the breeder or Sharon's eyes. "Less than perfect" doesn't preclude a pedigree cat being bred from. Having a congenital, hereditary defect does.


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## jenny armour (Feb 28, 2010)

have you let the breed know after all you have paid out for a breeding queen


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## Izzie999 (Nov 27, 2008)

Hi,
Im curious to what bloodtest the kitten was having after being with you such a short time? if its felv/fiv then surely the Mother would have been tested for this before she went to stud? 

I am all for health testing, it is essential to rule out heriditary defects etc. I am sure the kitten will find a lovely pet home as long as the breeder does the right thing and ensures that the new owner is prepared to spey the kitten and not allow any pregnancy to happen,better still neuter her before she goes to her new home. 

Breeders are not all cold either, I love my cats very much and their babies. They are part of the family here and are spoilt and cuddled. Even breeders who eventually neuter and rehome their ex girls are doing it for the right reasons. It allows a girl to live out her retirement years as a much loved pet rather than being in overcrowded homes with breeding girls who can be quite unpleasant with neuter girls. 

Izzie


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## sharon_gurney (Jan 27, 2010)

thanks to the folks out there for their support, as for the others.....

Ive just got back from taking Della back to the breeder who was very understanding.

What I will say is yes I bonded with this little girl, she is adorable and the decision to give her back was not an easy one. 

I do not have endless pots of money to buy cat after cat after cat, I have tried to do the responsible thing and not breed from a cat which could potentially pass on problems to her kittens.

Yes a hernia may be a minor problem but would you like to buy a kitten from me and have to pay out for their opperations to put it right on your new kitten? I think not!

Della is a beautiful little girl and more than likely live a long and healthy life as someones pet, just unfortunately not with me.

At least when I decide to breed its with the knowledge that ive done my best to ensure the healthies babies I can, now can some of you moggy breeders say that? NO! So dont critiscise me for doing the right thing!


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

chrissy1982 said:


> OK this is what i dont like about pedagree cats/kittens/breeding you all bang on at us who have had moggy pregnacys BUT you take a kitten back because its not 100% perfect now what will happen to that poor poor kitten as hes not 100% perfect will he even get a home because hes a pedagree and not 100% im not haveing a go at op because obviously it wasnt what she wanted but its 1 rule for 1 and another for others at the end of the day a kitten is a kitten not a item you can return because it dont look right 1 of my little kittens had a hurnia vet didnt even notice it i did and ask the vet later he said its nothing to worry about it wont affect the cat in any way


I dont get what your saying I feel the OP is being very sensible, what are you saying, they should breed from an animal that has a health problem? would you be happy if you paid 550-600 for such a cat? Its not chucking a kitten away its about preventing other kittens being born with a hernia.

As for moggies dont you feel there are enough in this world? I wouldn't support anyone breeding moggys on purpose


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

chrissy1982 said:


> BUT you take a kitten back because its not 100% perfect now what will happen to that poor poor kitten as hes not 100% perfect will he even get a home because hes a pedagree and not 100%


Of course he will, the breeder will reduce the price. If he doesn't find a home, the breeder will keep him, because that is what reputable breeders do.

Liz


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

lizward said:


> Of course he will, the breeder will reduce the price. If he doesn't find a home, the breeder will keep him, because that is what reputable breeders do.
> 
> Liz


I agree with this, and remember not every person is after breeding cats/animals and will take on pets with small problems


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I think the hernia is almost a side issue, though I agree wholeheartedly with not breeding from such a girl. I'm far more concerned that someone would buy a kitten for breeding and then feel it necessary to take it for undetermined 'blood tests'. There must be some reason the OP felt they needed to do this. The time to ensure you are buying a healthy kitten is *before* you pay over any money and bring it home.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Closing this thread until I've had chance to read through it all


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

If this thread cannot continue without the personal and offensive arguments that I have just deleted it will be closed again.


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## babygirls (Aug 22, 2011)

I'm really confused, I didnt think my post was offensive or rude :confused1:

I've not been here long enough to be either


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

sometimes posts are deleted as they don't make sense when some others have been deleted..Jill


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

Don't really understand some of the comments but Sharon you've done the right thing. Must have been horrible for you but you will be rewarded long term.

The whole point of breeding is to better the breed and ensure that you are breeding from the healthiest animals possible, if there is a hereditary condition or problem the animal(s) concerned shouldn't be bred from.

There is no reason why she won't make a super pet, and no reason why she won't find her forever home soon, it only means she isn't suitable for breeding.

Hope you find your new girl soon Sharon


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_yes do let us know what you decide to do about getting another breeding queen._


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## sharon_gurney (Jan 27, 2010)

Ive got my eye on another little girl, from the same breeder but a different litter. 

she is only 7 weeks old at the moment and the breeder is happy for me to make a decission on her when I come back from my holidays. will keep you all posted.

:thumbup:


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## Kitty_pig (Apr 9, 2011)

awww sharon im so sorry to hear it didnt work out with Della. At least in giving her back to the breeder she can now be found a new forever home as a pet  Im sure someone will be very glad to have her. I hope if you do decide to buy this new girl she is perfectly healthy and happy xxxx


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