# How can people say they are real animal lovers when they eat meat?



## Guest (Apr 10, 2011)

...............................


----------



## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

If I had to kill chickens myself.. i wouldn't eat them.. or any other form of meat that may pass my lips. 

The fact I buy chicken breast skinned and boned and I am telling myself it something else.. goes a long way for me to eat it.. 

If I had to go out into the garden and choose a chuck.. I would have a garden full of chucks..


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Human beings have been given teeth which are designed for tearing up meat and masticating our food. If we were not intended to be meat eaters, we would not have the teeth to eat it.

Plus, eating meat gives us some essential minerals etc which cannot be easily obtained from vegetables unless we eat those vegetables in huge quantities daily. Many vegetarians eat a diet poor in all the essential nutrients people need and as a consequence can become anaemic due in particular, to a shortage of iron.

Whilst I love animals, I also accept that for my survival, I need to consume them. Just as any other carnivorous animal consumes animal flesh.

If someone chooses to go against what is innately human, that is there choice. However, I can love animals and not wish to bring about unnecessary suffering and still accept that eating animals is essential to remain healthy.

At the end of the day, the survival of our own species is paramount.


----------



## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

I grew up on a farm and I loved all the animals. Take the chickens, I gave them names fed them every day, but I would still help pluck them and eat them. I'd help my dad with gutting and skinning rabbits from when I could walk so it just seems normal to me.

I never felt like that about fox hunting because that's for sport and that's different.

I don't think eating an animal is cruelty, so long as it is killed humanely. I know a lot of people don't share this opinion but that's up to them.


----------



## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

To be lazy, combine momentofmadness and Sacremists statements and you've got mine :thumbup:

Chuck in metaldogs aswell.


----------



## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

Personally, I felt like a hypocrite eating meat, even though it was always free range etc. I've not been vegetarian for that long, but before I was getting to the point were I just couldn't bear to eat meat. Bit gross, but things like gristle and veins in meat just made it even worse. I would only eat mince and finely diced chicken. I don't like the thoughts of animals being killed for food, especially when I have other options. It makes me feel sick when I see people gorging on cheap meat with every mealtime. I remember growing up it wasn't so much a 'treat' but I think people consume a lot more meat these days...


----------



## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Sacremist said:


> *Human beings have been given teeth which are designed for tearing up meat and masticating our food. If we were not intended to be meat eaters, we would not have the teeth to eat it.*
> 
> Plus, eating meat gives us some essential minerals etc which cannot be easily obtained from vegetables unless we eat those vegetables in huge quantities daily. Many vegetarians eat a diet poor in all the essential nutrients people need and as a consequence can become anaemic due in particular, to a shortage of iron.
> 
> ...


mmm How many horses do you know that are meat eaters .. I know of none.. they have so many teeth..


----------



## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> mmm How many horses do you know that are meat eaters .. I know of none.. they have so many teeth..


I think she means our canine teeth


----------



## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

If the animals are raised ethically I see no problem with eating meat it's called nature. I would love to be able to raise my own meat so I could ensure it's welfare until that's possible I'll buy from the best sources I can. Animals eat each other and as much as we would like to pretend we're not humans are animals and are omnivores we are designed to eat meat.

I don't agree with battery/factory farming. The sight of pigs in those tiny pens disgusts me and I would never eat veal because of what they're doing to the calves now  but I would eat ethically raised meat. I prefer eating hunted meat as it's the best way to ensure they live good lives. I actually don't understand when people say they don't like to think of it as chickens/cows etc. Surely it's much worse to be thinking this food just comes in packets rather than it was a living animal


----------



## Guest (Apr 10, 2011)

I do find it slightly odd that people say they're real animal lovers but eat meat, but I've been vegetarian since I was three.

I think if you're going to do it you have to do it whole heartedly and not be hypocritical - for example, not eating meat but still using normal toothpaste or normal washing up liquid. 

On the other hand, I was just talking via pm and we were talking about vegetarian food for cats and dogs. We both agree that's just hugely out of order to alter someone or something elses diet. 

I still get meat for my cats and for Bumby, but I make sure it's the highest welfare standard I can find and such

Em
xx


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

momentofmadness said:


> mmm How many horses do you know that are meat eaters .. I know of none.. they have so many teeth..


It's not how many teeth you have that is relevant but what type of teeth you have. A horses teeth are different to humans. They do not have teeth design in shape to tear up meat.


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Like someone else said when I see a chicken breast I dont really picture a chicken.

I dont get much say in what meat we buy as my mom does the grocery shopping. If I did the shopping Id buy the best meat I could but I could not give it up completely.


Roast dinner with carrots peas and mashed Potato with gravy mhmmmm :drool: 

Im picky about my meat tho, I prefer beef then pork then chicken and not anywhere near a huge fan of fish


----------



## Angie2011 (Feb 2, 2011)

I don't eat meat!!   haven't since i was about 16yrs old...but i have NO problem what so ever with people who do! and i cook it for Mum and family. 

PS! i lied  i do eat spam!  

Oh! pleazzzzzzze dont tell me whats in it


----------



## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Sacremist said:


> It's not how many teeth you have that is relevant but what type of teeth you have. A horses teeth are different to humans. They do not have teeth design in shape to tear up meat.


It was what you originally put that made me question..

And to be honest.. Horses could tear meat and chew it.. with the teeth they have.


----------



## Guest (Apr 10, 2011)

Angie2011 said:


> I don't eat meat!!   haven't since i was about 16yrs old...but i have NO problem what so ever with people who do! and i cook it for Mum and family.
> 
> PS! i lied  i do eat spam!
> 
> Oh! pleazzzzzzze dont tell me whats in it


Possibly badger, from the look of it :lol: :yikes: It bounces and everything :lol: No food should bounce :blink: xxxxxxxx


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

momentofmadness said:


> It was what you originally put that made me question..
> 
> And to be honest.. Horses could tear meat and chew it.. with the teeth they have.


I clearly worded it badly. But I still think a horse would struggle to tear up meat as easily as an animal whose teeth are designed for the job. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.


----------



## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Sacremist said:


> I clearly worded it badly. But I still think a horse would struggle to tear up meat as easily as an animal whose teeth are designed for the job. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.


Having had to study the movement of jaw and how a horse takes food.. I know thdey can manage it.. But horses are not meat eaters.. 

Stallions kill each other by ripping each others throats out..


----------



## Guest (Apr 10, 2011)

I have basically said the same things to her like most of you have said and she said she still doesn't understand and she has seen videos etc and that the animals are scared and do know that they are going to be killed when they are in the line up. I saw one of the video's she was on about and I admit the cow did look scared but I don't believe it was because it thought it was going to be killed. More so that it was scared of being put into a confined space apon entering the slaughter house. I told her I totally don't agree with battery farming etc and always choose free range but she said I still just don't understand how you can say that way is ok but still eat it. I guess I'll never be able to make her understand my way of thinking.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

momentofmadness said:


> Having had to study the movement of jaw and how a horse takes food.. I know thdey can manage it.. But horses are not meat eaters..
> 
> Stallions kill each other by ripping each others throats out..


I'm sure anything with teeth can do a certain amount of damage at the end of the day.

However, you would be hard pushed to find a doctor, dietician or any such like, who would tell you a vegetarian diet is healthy for a human being.


----------



## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Is that the one where they tried to say the cow wet itself because it knew it was going to die? I doubt a cow would know that but I'm guessing it would have been stressed out. As long as the animals are looked after properly before they're killed I don't really see the problem.


----------



## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Sacremist said:


> I'm sure anything with teeth can do a certain amount of damage at the end of the day.
> 
> However, you would be hard pushed to find a doctor, dietician or any such like, who would tell you a vegetarian diet is healthy for a human being.


Is all I can say..

Is I wouldn't dictate to others what they should and shouldn't be eating.. 
Thats not aimed at you.. its in relation to what has been said..

took me a long time to eat chicken.. and you know.. you guys prob wont want to hear it.. I actually like the taste.. but if I had to kill pluck cook and dissect to eat it.. i wouldn't be doing.. I buy chicken fillets and that is it..


----------



## Angie2011 (Feb 2, 2011)

Mmmm! i've never tried to BOUNCE my spam! :blink:


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

I'm sure a lot of people not used to killing animals for their food would probably have the same difficulty. It is easy not to think about where our food comes from.

I do wonder how many people would stay vegetarian if they lived in Africa and after a dry season with no crops and no food, if the only food offered was meat, would they still keep to their principles and refuse to eat it choosing to starve to death first?


----------



## Guest (Apr 10, 2011)

Angie2011 said:


> Mmmm! i've never tried to BOUNCE my spam! :blink:


Do it do it do it do it do it :lol: xxxx


----------



## Angie2011 (Feb 2, 2011)

Do it do it do it do it do it xxxx

 next time i open my spam! i will have a go.....don't think Mum would be happy, but am sure the dogs and puss would.  xxx


----------



## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Bounce your spam.. 

Apparently I used to eat.. fried spam.. when I was tiny. I dont know when I stopped but I can't remember eating it.. I remember someone trying to force me to eat steak and I was gagging and crying.. 

I also dont eat cheese or have straight milk.. only milk is in products where you can't tell..


----------



## Guest (Apr 10, 2011)

momentofmadness said:


> Bounce your spam..
> 
> Apparently I used to eat.. fried spam.. when I was tiny. I dont know when I stopped but I can't remember eating it.. I remember someone trying to force me to eat steak and I was gagging and crying..
> 
> I also dont eat cheese or have straight milk.. only milk is in products where you can't tell..


:lol: It honestly DOES bounce :lol: It's the nutritional version of a power ball :blink:

I only eat eggs from the chickens of people I know, cheese from one farm from people I know and I don't drink milk :lol: I'm a nightmare :lol:

xxxx


----------



## ScottyJock (Apr 10, 2011)

Because man made meat from animals.


----------



## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

I eat eggs.. I love eggs.. and I have never had any of my sisters.. 

I can't stand.. meat on bone, knocks me sick.. .. I can't stand steak.. Now here are the weird things.. I will eat mince beef in a sauce as in chili or bolognaise. but can't stand the smell of frying it.. 
I dont eat any lamb or beef joint things.. yuck.. 
If I dont like the look of it I wont eat it.. i dont eat any type of fish.. 
I only eat one type of yoghurt occasionally.. 

Im not that fussed for choccies.. if you offered me one Id probably say no.. 

Im just mad..


----------



## CharleyRogan (Feb 20, 2009)

I see what your vegi friend means, these days we do not NEED to eat meat because of advances in medical science that allows us to put these vitamins into tablet form so we could perfectly live without meat. 

But I think its hardwired into our brains to eat meat and people disassociate what they are eating because it does not look like an animal. Maybe if you saw the actual animal there would be less meat eaters.


----------



## Angie2011 (Feb 2, 2011)

We should start a spam bouncing society! 
I LOVE CHEESE!  and milk! and BIG FAT CAKES!


----------



## Angie2011 (Feb 2, 2011)

Em this is the one i had the other night! Mmmm!


----------



## mstori (May 22, 2009)

ive only just started posting on here.. so be nice 

Im a veggie.. i dont eat meat. Apart from a month lapse when i was 17, and kebabs were cheap..oops.. i havent eaten meat since i was 14 and until 2 weeks ago hadnt eaten an egg (but had a craving for one and had to keep thinking its not an egg lol) I also do not eat gelitine etc. I do eat some fish. I struggle with this so much. i can getvegi version of meat but not fish. Its a battle between it still being a living creature and it tasting nice 

My kids eat meat. they know it is an animal and it is their choice, I will not put my personal feelings onto someone, they have to make their own mind up..

what gets me is a friend who is disgusted that people eat cats, as she has lots as pets, and yet has tried probably every meat going. To me, you can not differenciate between animals. Someone i know wont eat "pretty animals". I could never eat the flesh of an animal, but I must admit I wear leather, etc. I will never buy halal meat for my kids, and i do not buy the cheapest meat, I am not a big believer in buying "the best" I look at it and it all looks the same :blink:

I do find a confliction with animal lover and eatiung an animal, but I know people I have spoken to said they do not see it as being an animal. A question I am often asked is "if you would die if you did not eat a burger you would.. wouldnt you?" and I can honestly say I wouldnt eat it. I couldnt now after so long, it turns my stomach. I wont go into detail as I do not want to offend, but i couldnt eat it.

I remember my nan telling me when she was young they had chickens. Her dad was a nasty man and one day whilst having tea, he told her they were eating her pet Bessy. She was disturbed and upset and he forced her to eat it. How sick is that! I imagine it being one of my beloved pets and how I would feel, I cant even put it into words..

Tori x


----------



## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

mstori said:


> ive only just started posting on here.. so be nice
> 
> Im a veggie.. i dont eat meat. Apart from a month lapse when i was 17, and kebabs were cheap..oops.. i havent eaten meat since i was 14 and until 2 weeks ago hadnt eaten an egg (but had a craving for one and had to keep thinking its not an egg lol) I also do not eat gelitine etc. I do eat some fish. I struggle with this so much. i can getvegi version of meat but not fish. Its a battle between it still being a living creature and it tasting nice
> 
> ...


I don't really have much to say about eating meat vs not eating meat, but I noticed you're from Washington. I used to live there years ago! Whereabouts in Washington (if you don't mind me asking)? Do they still give each district a number?


----------



## mstori (May 22, 2009)

classixuk said:


> I don't really have much to say about eating meat vs not eating meat, but I noticed you're from Washington. I used to live there years ago! Whereabouts in Washington (if you don't mind me asking)? Do they still give each district a number?


They got rid of the districts a couple of years ago, thanks goodness!! 

Do not hold it against me, as its not by choice.. but I am living in Barmston :blink: at the moment.


----------



## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

I'm a protein girl. My basic diet is protein and vegetables, with a little quinoa, potatoes, sweet potatoes and brown rice thrown in. (and chocolate)

I try to do both, eat meat and alternatives. We buy tofu chicken, bologna and hot dogs and they're pretty good. Also fish and seafood. Most of my animal protein is from chicken.

I have very low iron, but can't take the supplements so I cook with iron pans and will eat beef at least once a week. My OH eats only seafood and tofu for protein, he's been animal free for years now.


----------



## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

mstori said:


> They got rid of the districts a couple of years ago, thanks goodness!!
> 
> Do not hold it against me, as its not by choice.. but I am living in Barmston :blink: at the moment.


There used to be a lot of single parent families living in Barmston if I remember, and you couldn't drive around the streets as they were one of the "new towns". Is it still the same?

We used to live in Concorde before we moved to Lambton.

Is Sulgrave still the dump where nobody wants to live? Is The Galleries still the center of the universe? 

I actually think Washington was one of the best places I ever lived to be honest. It's a well planned town. You don't appreciate that until it takes you 5 miles to get to a clothes shop!


----------



## mstori (May 22, 2009)

classixuk said:


> There used to be a lot of single parent families living in Barmston if I remember, and you couldn't drive around the streets as they were one of the "new towns". Is it still the same?
> 
> We used to live in Concorde before we moved to Lambton.
> 
> ...


If you remember barmston flats and the walkway aka the bronx lol.. well, its worse! they have been planning to pull the empty flats down for years..

Theyve tried to improve all areas, with not a lot of luck. The plans for Glebe got halted half way through..

the galleries (pasty baby haven) is being revamped, although what good it will do I do not know, the shops are the same.. although now it is full od card, game and phone shops and not a lot else. they built a retail park which at least has a home bargains  , pets at home and some half decent clothes shops.

Its a shame cos there are some beautiful walks here and it gets spoilt by a lot of dodgy areas.. and people! The parks have been run down and there is not a lot for kids to do. It could be a fantastic place to live. The history surrounding the place still draws in the tourists, although not as many.

My Oh has just moved to Concord, next to the new (but failing) washington school. Its got a bad name but he has been here since Novemberish and it is lovely actually. Very quiet. Not what I expected.

WE are having to "slum it" lol for a while to get back on track after a disasterous year x


----------



## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

Sorry, forgot about the OP. I am an animal lover. Does that mean I don't feed my dog meat or get angry at the purely carnivore animals doing what nature intended them to? No. I could easily be a vegetarian and do choose many vegetarian foods, but my body asks for meat at times to get the nutrients it needs to be healthy.

I had a friend who went vegan for a while and actually got very sick. It's just not the way we were made.


----------



## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

mstori said:


> If you remember barmston flats and the walkway aka the bronx lol.. well, its worse! they have been planning to pull the empty flats down for years..
> 
> Theyve tried to improve all areas, with not a lot of luck. The plans for Glebe got halted half way through..
> 
> ...


I can't believe the flats and the walkways are still standing! I thought they were knocked down sometime in the 90's. Am I confusing it with Sulgrave? I know one area had a lot of money spent on it around 10 years ago.

When I lived there, the parks were beautiful. In Lambton especially, every little street had it's own kid's play area with slides and swings that the back gardens opened out onto. There was also "Princess Anne" Park not far from The Galleries that was quite beautiful to walk in with the dogs.

When I lived in Concord there was a brilliant school just down the road called "Usworth Colliery". Is that knocked down now? I'm guessing it is?

Where are the best areas of Washington to live nowadays?


----------



## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

i love eating meat......but i couldnt be the one to kill it, even if it is in a 'humane' way. 

My mum is knocking on for 70, when she was a teen she had a job slaughtering chickens, back then it was a 'ring their necks and let them run' jobby. she did it back then as it was normal, a way to get money for food. Today she couldnt do it.

she also says if i knew how biscuits was made in factories i wouldnt eat them lol but i keep hoping and praying that things are done differently and cleanly these days lol


----------



## Stephen&Dogs (Dec 11, 2010)

It's not like you're eating your favourite pet


----------



## shells (Jan 16, 2011)

i have actually put a lot of peeps of chicken after they met mine  however i still eat chicken but only sertain ones as i know how they live ie farms or factory etc. i do eat meat but not a lot and what i do eat never has a high percentage of meat in it such as sasages n burgers theres usually more cereals or whatever in it. i try and avoide mince due to all the muck in it my boss put me of it yrs ago with something he said whitch was true.


----------



## shells (Jan 16, 2011)

not quiet the same i make my own as a rule its not boughed mince  ok i say i , i mean hubby lol


----------



## angelblue (Aug 4, 2009)

Sacremist said:


> *Human beings have been given teeth which are designed for tearing up meat and masticating our food. If we were not intended to be meat eaters, we would not have the teeth to eat it.*
> Plus, eating meat gives us some essential minerals etc which cannot be easily obtained from vegetables unless we eat those vegetables in huge quantities daily. Many vegetarians eat a diet poor in all the essential nutrients people need and as a consequence can become anaemic due in particular, to a shortage of iron.
> 
> Whilst I love animals, I also accept that for my survival, I need to consume them. Just as any other carnivorous animal consumes animal flesh.
> ...


please qualify where you got the information that our teeth were designed to tear meat.
human teeth are pretty poor at tearing meat, try it with some raw beef and race your dog.
our teeth are a comprimise, we were originally herbivores and our teeth are designed mainly for eating leaves , shoots etc and grinding them up. deffo not for tearing up meat from carcasses. and please dont say you didnt mean dead animals carcasses cos nature dont make allowances for knives forks and cooking. we have tiny little incisors and canines, a small mouth as herbivores do, look how large thenmouth on a true meat eateater is.

the best that can be said is we have evolved to be omnivores.

also we DO NOT NEED meat in our diet. iron is plentiful, even more so than meat, in things like spinach for example.

i have a herd time reading unresearched opinion as opposed to fact.

and yes i eat meat, i love it.

try and bite and chew a ligament from say a zebra and see how ineffecient our teeth are.


----------



## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

i dont eat mean and try to avoid as much dairy as i can, i did try and go vegan at ane point but was quite poorly on it because i didnt bother to research it properly. i have been doing a lot of reading up on nutrition and am going to try again as soon as i get it all sorted out in my head. 

my children all eat meat, it is their choice and know what meat is what animal. My youngest son (he is 6) is starting to get funny eating it so i am happy for him not to if he doesnt want, i know enough about being vegetarian to make sure he has all the nutrients he needs. oh and they all prefer vege mince (like quorn) in bolognese, chilli's, etc 

the meat i do buy for the kids and dogs is as ethically sourced as i can find and afford at the time so rather than them getting lots of meat even when they do have it they only get a little of high quality.


----------



## Guinevere13 (Mar 31, 2008)

We are omnivores. When hunting was poor we were designed to exist on a mainly fruit and veg diet. That is why our canine teeth are not as well developed as a lion (purely carnivorous) and our molars are flatter for grinding like a sheep, not ridged like a dogs. 

I am a vegetarian and am very healthy thank you. I would only eat animals or fish if I could kill it, skin it and cook it myself so I don't because I can't. Even if I could kill it and skin it I would still have problems cooking it as I am a terrible cook so it would be an utter waste of a life! 

I do get upset and annoyed at the amount of meat wasted in shops though, all I see is wasted lives.


----------



## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

Prehistoric animal bones found worldwide show signs of butchery,both for the meat and broken open for the marrow.Whether from carrion or hunted is debatable.Stone tools were invented mostly for this purpose.
Without the consumption of meat you wouldn't be here.And peoples like the Plains Indian.Innuit, and the Mongols would never have existed.

If you're concerned about the consumption of animals, campaign against the Jewish and Muslim habit of slashing the throats of conscious animals.

Dutch ritual slaughter ban a step closer | euronews, world news

And to those who buy organically raised meat...how do you know how it was slaughtered?


----------



## ballybee (Aug 25, 2010)

I am a complete animal lover...i am also a carnivore  yes it does seem a bit hypocritical but thats me all over...i have no problem with killing and preparing animals for either me or Tummel(rabbits and the like) and i have no problem eating meat...i live on a beef and lamb farm and i can still make jokes about which one has the best rump for steaks  also sheep are my favourite animals...both to eat and watch.

Somebody tell chimps they shouldn't go round killing smaller monkeys and eating them...if they can get hold of meat they will eat it even though they can survive as veggies...it's called choice, even chimps have one 

I've yet to meet a veggie thats made me see how eating meat is cruel...the animals dead it really doesn't care that i'm eating it's flesh while it's running round heaven(all farm animals must go to heaven) mooing and pooing and eating...tbh if it's a cow i doubt it even knows it's dead  A jehovahs witness tried to tell me i won't go to heaven because i eat meat(i think this was his personal opinion..not part of the religion) and i told him he wouldn't get into heaven because in the bible people were eating meat and as he wasn't he was denying himself gifts from god....he got quite angry(i'm not religious...come from a very religious family so know the bible pretty well) and left


----------



## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

i just want to say even though i am veggie i would never push my views on anyone, but i do get mad when some people who eat meat try to push it in my face and ask if i miss it, want a bite etc...

its all about personal choice and respecting other people choice.


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

I only eat small amounts of organic meat and don't touch dairy, lot's of alternatives available for dairy so no problem there 
Only buy free range meat and eggs.

My dogs have a mostly organic meat diet too.

I was vegetarian for years, due to health issue chose to add a little meat a couple of years ago. Ideally would like to go back to veggie diet, but who knows, not sure at moment.

I am not a saint (thank heavens) so don't beat myself up over eating organic meat on occaision here. I still consider myself an animal lover and support various animal organisations and do what I can do practically nearer to home 

If anyone wants to consider me a hypocrite ... that is their perogative


----------



## Changes (Mar 21, 2009)

My lil Babies said:


> The above question was asked to me today after I was saying to someone how I don't agree with horse racing & the fact I go on about how I hate animal cruelty but will eat meat. This person of course is a veggie & just can't understand why I can eat meat but be a true animal lover.
> 
> Now I don't want to start arguments I just want to know what others have to say on the matter as I do truely love animals and hate any cruelty including farm animals being mistreated.
> 
> *I personally don't think of my food, Beef, pork chicken etc as being an animal when eating it* and I do always choose to eat free range. Also if I saw my food live before, or had to kill it myself then I know I wouldn't be able to eat it. As it is though I buy my meat prepared and to me that is food not an animal.


This is exactly how most people that love animals manage to eat meat - they don't think of their food as an animal - I am thinking that if they did, they might not eat meat xx


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Changes said:


> This is exactly how most people that love animals manage to eat meat - they don't think of their food as an animal - I am thinking that if they did, they might not eat meat xx


I am perfectly aware of what I am eating which is why I only buy organic free range products


----------



## Stephen&Dogs (Dec 11, 2010)

Changes said:


> This is exactly how most people that love animals manage to eat meat - they don't think of their food as an animal - I am thinking that if they did, they might not eat meat xx


I wouldn't care either way


----------



## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

I only luvmydogs. :thumbsup:


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

I eat mean and it doesnt really cross my mind when im eating it, dont know why but i cant eat roast pork or lamb but can eat sausage and bacon.
I understand why some people might not want to eat mean but i cant understand why people wont eat dairy products...you dont have to kill a cow to milk it. 
Also if we didnt eat meat then we would just be over run by animals.


----------



## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

Changes said:


> This is exactly how most people that love animals manage to eat meat - they don't think of their food as an animal - I am thinking that if they did, they might not eat meat xx


And that's exactly what the Tesco brigade want..Older members will remember when the meat counter was surrounded by pictures of animals...usually one with a cow on it illustrating where the different joints came from.These have mysteriously disappeared.


----------



## ballybee (Aug 25, 2010)

poohdog said:


> And that's exactly what the Tesco brigade want..Older members will remember when the meat counter was surrounded by pictures of animals...usually one with a cow on it illustrating where the different joints came from.These have mysteriously disappeared.


My mums butcher still has those posters...i find them interesting as you can ask the butcher which cut is best for whatever you're cooking  although my OH is a butcher so i don't need to know  i just cook and eat it!!!


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

harley bear said:


> I understand why some people might not want to eat mean but i cant understand why people wont eat dairy products...you dont have to kill a cow to milk it.
> Also if we didnt eat meat then we would just be over run by animals.


If we didn't eat meat the animals wouldn't be bred in the first place in many instances.

There is a lot of cruelty involved with he dairy industry. For example have you ever thought about why cows really produce milk? For calves 

If we are drinking the milk, where do you think many of these calves end up? Clue ... abattoir/slaughterhouse. The females will be probably raised as dairy cows themselves ... But they will generally be removed from mum within days if not pretty much immediately ... because "we" want their milk 

Worth a read it explains how things are done ...

Animal Cruelty - Dairy


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

poohdog said:


> And that's exactly what the Tesco brigade want..


Who are the "Tesco brigade"


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> If we didn't eat meat the animals wouldn't be bred in the first place in many instances.
> 
> There is a lot of cruelty involved with he dairy industry. For example have you ever thought about why cows really produce milk? For calves
> 
> ...


What Happens to the Calves?

In the dairy industry, calves are removed from their mothers not long after being born (either right after birth or within 1-2 days). Female calves will be raised to become dairy cows and male calves will be raised and slaughtered for meat. Most male calves are killed for beef, but some will end up in the awful veal industry.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Was from your link... As it says female cows are raised for dairy and male raised for beef.... which is what i figured. Obviously they have to get pregnant to produce milk but they can be milked for a few years afterwards without being inseminated, only the intense dairy farms inseminate every year. 
To be perfectly honest i dont see what the major issue is with it, it doesnt even come close to how chickens are raised and male chicks are mainly suffocated a few hours after they have hatched to feed birds of prey and be made into animal food.

Animals wouldnt need to be bred from they would breed themselves we would still be over run with them.


----------



## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

Absolutely ADORE eating meat.

I also adore my pets. I can't for the life of me see a contradiction here.

Not every animal has the lot in life to be raised as a pet. 
We had cows, pigs and chickens when I was younger, that were raised specifically to butcher.

We gave them names like Ham & Bacon...Tbone and Sirloin...etc..so as not to get overly attached and to keep in mind what they were there for.

That doesn't mean the animals weren't cared for. I spent hours "chatting them up" while making rounds feeding and watering...so much so that Mom warned me about it...the idea of becoming too attached.

I looked at it this way...if they are happy and content while they are here, then they'll probably taste better when they are laying on my plate. 

Now...to be totally honest, apart from the chickens, I couldn't have a hand in the slaughter..I think that stemmed from my step's ineptitude at putting down the pig he first tried...and I couldn't get that image out of my head.

Didn't sway me in the least from enjoying the meat later though.:nono:


----------



## Guest (Apr 10, 2011)

Ok this is getting a bit silly now, first of all if you bet horse racing you are a animal hater and cruel and now if we are meat eaters we are also animal haters and cruel!!! 

Anything else that we are now???


----------



## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> If we didn't eat meat the animals wouldn't be bred in the first place in many instances.
> 
> There is a lot of cruelty involved with he dairy industry. For example have you ever thought about why cows really produce milk? For calves
> 
> ...


They are snatched from there mothers usually the following day.. (they have to get the milk going) some will go to market some the farmers hand rear....
Females used to breed with males to go onto your plate..

I was at my sisters old farm and was there at the birth of a calf... My BIL had to help the cow to give birth they are bred to have big calfs.. This one wasn't coming out and he had to winch it out.. All the farm girls met him.. they called him Billy.. He was with his mum for 24 hours then separated.. Mum wasn't pleased and the calf was very distressed.. I used to go regular with my BIL to milk them all at 5am..

Everyone was very upset knowing that Billy had only one future.. the future to be fattened up and put on your plate.. 
Thats not the only birth Ive been at. My nan and grandad had a beef farm...


----------



## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Who are the "Tesco brigade"


Use your imagination...


----------



## Guest (Apr 10, 2011)

Pmsl...I think its a bit wrong to say how can real animal lovers eat meat..
I absolutely adore animals but love a fat steak on a saturday night aswell...is that me being an hypocrite? no thats me being human!!!


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

wiley80 said:


> Pmsl...I think its a bit wrong to say how can real animal lovers eat meat..
> I absolutely adore animals but love a fat steak on a saturday night aswell...is that me being an hypocrite? no thats me being human!!!


Shame on you! How can you enjoy a fat juicy steak and look at your animals in the eye


----------



## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

harley bear said:


> Shame on you! How can you enjoy a fat juicy steak and look at your animals in the eye


Probably because the animals are watching you eat it...and slavering...


----------



## Guest (Apr 10, 2011)

harley bear said:


> Shame on you! How can you enjoy a fat juicy steak and look at your animals in the eye


I throw them a piece too...problem solved


----------



## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

I am omnivorous, as are my rats. It wouldn't be fair to make them eat vegetarian only as it's not their diet - it wouldn't be fair to make me vegetarian only as it's not my diet either. 

As humans, we need to accept what we are, we weren't made to function without eating meat - yes it can be done, if you're clever it can be done fairly successfully, but I personally feel that meat is an important part of the human diet.

If I could, I would raise my own animals to eat. I don't think I'd be able to kill them, and that's not hypocritical, I just wouldn't be able to turn off from physically killing an animal - I'd still be happy knowing it had a good life in my care and in turn, is helping to give me life, it's the way the food chain works. 

I don't agree with factory farmed animals btw. I know full well what goes on and try to buy as much local and free range meat as I can. I wish all the animals that end up on our plates grew up on big open farms with all the space and organic grazing they want, but that's the industry's fault, not mine - this became well established long before I was born, making it more difficult to control where my meat comes from.

It's like the pharmaceutical, paper and tobacco industries. They're not just going to disappear, and there won't be a cure for cancer or diabetes, mass growing of hemp will still be illegal and tobacco will never be banned because there's too much money in it!

Lol I wasn't going to write that much because I haven't read previous posts so I'm probably just echoing what others have said! Sorry!


----------



## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

KathrynH said:


> Ok this is getting a bit silly now, first of all if you bet horse racing you are a animal hater and cruel and now if we are meat eaters we are also animal haters and cruel!!!
> 
> Anything else that we are now???


Yes..

if you live in anything but a cave ...you are an EARTH hater.

:blink:


----------



## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

poohdog said:


> Probably because the animals are watching you eat it...and slavering...


Hahahahahaha.....

what's more cruel? Enjoying that fat juicy steak or...denying rover the opportunity to do the same?


----------



## Guest (Apr 10, 2011)

Bandy said:


> Hahahahahaha.....
> 
> what's more cruel? Enjoying that fat juicy steak or...denying rover the opportunity to do the same?


My thoughts exactly,lol....the reason i can look my dogs in the eye after eating my fat juicy steak is because i didnt eat them and have no plans to....so far


----------



## LyndaDanny (Jan 23, 2011)

I find it strange when people who eat fish consider themselves to be vegetarian. When they clearly are not.


----------



## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

i love all animals but i do eat and love meat. I can see the difference between pet animals and farm animals, which in my opinion are for eating. I belive that as long as the animals have a good life and are killed humanely then there is no problem. I make a point of telling my daughter all about where meat comes from and now when she sees a pig she says "mmmmm yummy bbq ribs". We are designed to eat meat afterall.


----------



## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

LyndaDanny said:


> I find it strange when people who eat fish consider themselves to be vegetarian. When they clearly are not.


Never did understand it. Meat is meat

But maybe...with the pressures put on them by others, and because fish aren't considered cute and cuddly, they don't think killing/consuming THAT living, breathing critter the same as something that walks terra firma.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sacremist said:


> Human beings have been given teeth which are designed for tearing up meat and masticating our food. If we were not intended to be meat eaters, we would not have the teeth to eat it.
> 
> Plus, eating meat gives us some essential minerals etc which cannot be easily obtained from vegetables unless we eat those vegetables in huge quantities daily. Many vegetarians eat a diet poor in all the essential nutrients people need and as a consequence can become anaemic due in particular, to a shortage of iron.
> 
> ...


the guts of meat eaters is very short designed to expel the toxins found in meat quickly, we have a very long gut evolved to digest vegetable matter .

vegetarians who eat a balanced diet are on the whole very healthy and statistically are less likely to get cancers like bowel cancer.


----------



## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

I don't feel people should be admonished for eating meat nor should people be classed as not being an animal lover for eating meat.

People eat meat as food not killing an animal to be cruel or for sport, but for nourishment.

Does that mean then that those of you who class yourselves as animal lovers because you don't eat meat- do not feed any of your animals meat??


----------



## Guest (Apr 10, 2011)

LyndaDanny said:


> I find it strange when people who eat fish consider themselves to be vegetarian. When they clearly are not.


Yep i agree...to be honest i have more of an issue eating fish as i own them myself,lol....seriously...i couldnt eat anything that i have as a pet,so i guess dogs,tortoises,rabbits and fish are safe from my nasty animal eating habits


----------



## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

I have not read all of the thread but feel I need to comment, Even before animals became under human control, and i think I can say control as we control their breeding their enviroment ect ect we eat them, early man eat meat it is what we do, as time went on animals became useful we used them to make lighter work for ourselves, 

I like eating meat and I adore my pets the two do not conect in my mind, even my chickens!!!!!!!


----------



## CheekoAndCo (Jun 17, 2009)

I'm veggie and have been for about 5 years. Recently I thought I was going to have to give up and eat meat because I got diagnosed with bad anemia but I spoke to my Dr about it and she says there's no reason for me to start eating meat again because my counts have always been high it just seems to have suddenly dropped. Don't know if I would have managed to eat meat if she told me to start eating it again because I just feel repulsed eating it.

None of my animals suffer because I'm veggie. They all get their meat and last night the hamsters got treated to some chicken.


----------



## smudgiesmummy (Nov 21, 2009)

im a aniamal lover and a meat eater , although i dont eat it every day ,im sticking to more vegatable stir frys and stuff as im trying to lose weight, although now and again i do eat either chicken or different kinds of ham , its rare i have have egg to

in my opinion its up to the person themselves what they do and dont eat , no one should tell them other wise

its only like what you wear on your feet .. leather , where does that come from ... animals ? so basically every part of a animal is used and even vegans wear them 

im not having a go at anyone , like i say its up to the person what they eat or wear... im not going to stop eating meet for anyone


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

If I had to eat my own animals... I couldnt do it. But, I do love a nice cheeseburger or a sunday roast 

I do make sure to buy my meat from the local butcher where possible, its all locally sourced and humanely slaughtered.

My grandad was a fishmonger (i cant stand fish though, strangely lol) and he also used to have chickens for some reason. He would dispatch the chooks on site so they were very fresh to be sold. I have done it myself because I tend to believe (and this is just my personal opinion and I dont expect us all to do it lol) that if you are going to eat meat you should be prepared to be the one to kill the animal in order to do it. Now, i dont go around murdering the neighbours chickens for dinner :lol: But, the fact that I have done it and can do it I think makes me feel better about eating meat. A friend of mine cant face even the thought of her roast dinner having been an animal not so long ago and refuses to even think about it, which i think is a bit of a blinkered view. If you dont think about it, then how can you be sure you're supporting proper farming practices?


----------



## JoinTheChase (Mar 20, 2011)

Personally - and I accept other people feel differentlyh, and don't mind that they do, - but personally, I have never had an issue with eating meat as long as you respect the animals that you're being fed with. 

It's part of nature for animals to eat other animals. It's been said before on here - our teeth (canines and incisors) are designed for it, our digestion is designed for it, our bodies are designed to work best using the nutrients from meat.

I only ask that the animals providing the food are respected. That they're given freedom etc during their life and are treated well, fed well, housed well. And that everything possible is done to make their death quick and painless. 

I try incredibly hard to use free range eggs/chicken and well treated cows/sheep/pigs. But I like meat. It tastes good. And it's natural to eat it. If I stopped eating meat, I wouldn't feel right giving it to my animals, and I'm not prepared to deny meat to the dogs.

Just my personal views lol


----------



## Jackie99 (Mar 5, 2010)

I was Veggie for a number of years, half because I asked myself why am I eating meat? I don't really like it and another part of me because I would be travelling behind a whole lorry full of sheep or cows sometimes in boiling hot weather and their little faces sticking out of the gaps in that lorry would break my heart, I know where they were going. but I was a lot younger then and I didn't really do any research and I become quite poorly. I began to slowly eat a bit of meat again. The smell and sight of most meat makes me feel ill. I eat a small amounts of chicken, ham, pork. Nothing else. I could live quite happily with never eating another bit of meat and I would like to totally change my lifestyle, diet etc so that every product I use at home is organic (not tested on animals) etc but I admit it is lack of education at the moment and it will take time and patience for me to gather as much information as possible and get into the swing of things. At the moment because I do eat a bit of meat I don't class myself as any less of an animal lover, I am passionate about animals and their rights and it would just be nice to know the 'killing' of animals for meat is always done in an humane, kind way in which the animal feels no fear nor pain.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sacremist said:


> It's not how many teeth you have that is relevant but what type of teeth you have. A horses teeth are different to humans. They do not have teeth design in shape to tear up meat.


our teeth are Not like that of a carnivore....

Human teeth are also similar to those found in other herbivores with the exception of the canines (the canines of some of the apes are elongated and are thought to be used for display and/or defense). Our teeth are rather large and usually abut against one another. The incisors are flat and spade-like, useful for peeling, snipping and biting relatively soft materials. The canines are neither serrated nor conical, but are flattened, blunt and small and function Like incisors. The premolars and molars are squarish, flattened and nodular, and used for crushing, grinding and pulping noncoarse foods.

Human saliva contains the carbohydrate-digesting enzyme, salivary amylase. This enzyme is responsible for the majority of starch digestion. The esophagus is narrow and suited to small, soft balls of thoroughly chewed food. Eating quickly, attempting to swallow a large amount of food or swallowing fibrous and/or poorly chewed food (meat is the most frequent culprit) often results in choking in humans.


----------



## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

I am a hypocrite.

I watch the Grand National and bet on it every year, I wear leather, I eat meat, Ive hunted my own, Ive helped with vermin control at local farms and watched the dogs do their job amongst many other things.

Lets face it people, the world is a cruel place.
Only a few day ago my cat Squeak was in the garden eating a bird she'd caught - should I have run out and chastised her for doing so because she has perfectly good dry food in her bowl and gets various treats? 
Animals can be just as cruel as us imo.

Yes i eat meat eggs etc. My meat comes from the local butchers, eggs from a farm 10 minute walk away, leather is a by product of the meat trade mostly and i think its better to use as much of the animal as possible if its going to die. Ive hunted rabbits, one minute they are munching grass the next they are off to bunny Heaven, do many other animals we eat receive such a quick death and have led such a free life?
I respect animals and what they give us and there will always be those who disagree with me.

But then that is one of the main reasons i love animals, they dont judge


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

I wonder how many people who have posted on this thread have leather sofas.
I doubt many people go shopping for a sofa and think of all the poor cows that have died


----------



## bullet (Jan 25, 2009)

Apparently, plants scream when you pick them http://youtu.be/MYT6jCVQOrY:o That narrows the choices now


----------



## Guest (Apr 10, 2011)

harley bear said:


> I wonder how many people who have posted on this thread have leather sofas.
> I doubt many people go shopping for a sofa and think of all the poor cows that have died


I have got a leather sofa, quick phone the animal rights welfare


----------



## CharleyRogan (Feb 20, 2009)

bullet said:


> Apparently, plants scream when you pick them http://youtu.be/MYT6jCVQOrY:o That narrows the choices now


You might think I'm weird but I don't like picking flowers just in case it does hurt them, I mean one minute they are alive and next min you pick them and they are dead. Call me weird but I can't pick plants because I know they are now dead.

I also would not buy a leather sofa and I don't buy leather shoes!


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

harley bear said:


> I wonder how many people who have posted on this thread have leather sofas.
> I doubt many people go shopping for a sofa and think of all the poor cows that have died


*Well i haven't,but thats not to say i find using the hide of cows already slaughterd wrong.BUT, it would depend on whether or not the cow died humanely.*


----------



## bullet (Jan 25, 2009)

CharleyRogan said:


> You might think I'm weird but I don't like picking flowers just in case it does hurt them, I mean one minute they are alive and next min you pick them and they are dead. Call me weird but I can't pick plants because I know they are now dead.
> 
> I also would not buy a leather sofa and I don't buy leather shoes!


Same effect with my nose You're weird :blink:


----------



## CharleyRogan (Feb 20, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Well i haven't,but thats not to say i find using the hide of cows already slaughterd wrong.BUT, it would depend on whether or not the cow died humanely.*


But it doesn't happen they have separate cows for different things, and they do not fully utilize the animals that they kill


----------



## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

Did you know all the large apes monkeys eat meat,, chimps will track monkeys and eat them, as will gorillars so will orangatanges (SP) 

Orangatangs in captivity are fed boiled chickens.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Posting and dashing as I want to go and make the most of the fab sunshine and sit outside with the chocolate numpty girls, but I could kill my own food, and have done in the past, as well as putting animals out of their misery such as wounded or diseased birds/bunnies etc. 

It all comes down to respect, I respect that an animal has died so I can have my food. I choose not to buy cheap chicken because I know it will most probably have lived a short and cruel life, and transported quite a long way before being killed inhumanely. If everyone chose to only support cruelty free, it would make a vast difference, but people would prefer to focus on other cruel issues rather than sort out what's on their plate, and that has to be down in part to what some people can afford; it's affordable ethics, people can have an opinion on cruelty issues, because it's free, but ask them to change their lifestyle and many don't want to know.


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

KathrynH said:


> I have got a leather sofa, quick phone the animal rights welfare


me too, infact i have had two new leather sofas in two years..... i need to be shot


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

harley bear said:


> I wonder how many people who have posted on this thread have leather sofas.
> I doubt many people go shopping for a sofa and think of all the poor cows that have died


ive got leather sofas, im afraid i had to compromise with my oh, but both of them were 2nd hand so i havent actually perpetuated the leather market.


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Starlite said:


> Lets face it people, the world is a cruel place.


Indeed it is, but with a little thought and compassion towards animals we can help to minimise it. How far we do so and what we are prepared to do is a reflection on the individual .... Their ethics and attitude towards animals.


----------



## Guest (Apr 10, 2011)

So what i need to do to make myself a better animal lover is get rid of my leather sofa, turn vegetarian and stop betting on horse racing?? 

Anything else while we are on the subject??


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

CharleyRogan said:


> But it doesn't happen they have separate cows for different things, and they do not fully utilize the animals that they kill


*Yes i know that,i was just saying that IF it was the hide from a cow that was slaughterd for the table,i wouldn't mind as long as it died humanly.*


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

piggybaker said:


> Did you know all the large apes monkeys eat meat,, chimps will track monkeys and eat them, as will gorillars so will orangatanges (SP)
> 
> Orangatangs in captivity are fed boiled chickens.


gorillas are vegetarian, and orangutan and gibbons are predominantly fruit eaters, its only chimps that regularly kill and eat their own prey.


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

CharleyRogan said:


> You might think I'm weird but I don't like picking flowers just in case it does hurt them, I mean one minute they are alive and next min you pick them and they are dead. Call me weird but I can't pick plants because I know they are now dead.
> 
> I also would not buy a leather sofa and I don't buy leather shoes!


You have to be joking


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> If everyone chose to only support cruelty free, it would make a vast difference, but people would prefer to focus on other cruel issues rather than sort out what's on their plate, and that has to be down in part to what some people can afford; it's affordable ethics, people can have an opinion on cruelty issues, because it's free, but ask them to change their lifestyle and many don't want to know.


People are free to focus on whatever aspect of cruelty they feel strongly about. They are also entitled to THEIR opinion on any manner of animal abuse 

I know it upsets you when people talk about the horrors of bloodsports because you like it or The Grand National, but that's life, these things are abhorrent to true animal lovers many of which will buy ethically, be vegetarians, etc.

Even if they are not/do not, it doesn't mean their opinion of bloodsports/racing is any less valid


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

KathrynH said:


> So what i need to do to make myself a better animal lover is get rid of my leather sofa, turn vegetarian and stop betting on horse racing??
> 
> Anything else while we are on the subject??


dont buy products tested on animals, be wary of tinned tuna! just because it says 'dolphin safe' it probably isnt, avoid products containing palm oil, errm boycott canadian maple syrup, only buy fsc wood products etc etc etc...:tongue_smilie: lol


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

KathrynH said:


> So what i need to do to make myself a better animal lover is get rid of my leather sofa, turn vegetarian and stop betting on horse racing??
> 
> Anything else while we are on the subject??


Only you can decide that, but after yesterday's race ... I would suggest horse racing might be as good a place as any to begin ...


----------



## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> gorillas are vegetarian, and orangutan and gibbons are predominantly fruit eaters, its only chimps that regularly kill and eat their own prey.


No honestly or I would not have put it I have seen a documentary of these primates catching and eatting meat,, your right about gibbons though but I didn't mention those by name sorry LOL one of thoses days


----------



## Guest (Apr 10, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> dont buy products tested on animals, be wary of tinned tuna! just because it says 'dolphin safe' it probably isnt, avoid products containing palm oil, errm boycott canadian maple syrup, only buy fsc wood products etc etc etc...:tongue_smilie: lol


Right ok thanks for that, don't eat tuna so that's sorted. 

While i learnt a very valuable lesson yesterday with the "grand national" and the horror of it and believe me feel awful about what happened.

This thread has taken the whole "Animal welfare" too far, people need to get a grip of reality i think!!


----------



## angelblue (Aug 4, 2009)

just to say vegitarian actually means 
lively / vigourous

it only began to be used to describe the veggies in the 1800's. which is how most people now associate it.

this link helps explain how our teeth *ARE NOT DESIGNED TO TEAR MEAT NIETHER ARE OUR GUTS REALLY DESIGNED TO EAT IT*

Carnivores vs. Herbivores

but we have evolved to eat meat BY USING TOOLS AND HEAT

we could not survive a raw meat diet, the bacteria would kill us.

i love eating meat.


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Only you can decide that, but after yesterday's race ... I would suggest horse racing might be as good a place as any to begin ...


It makes no difference if you bet on horses or not it will always be a sport esp for the wealthy who bet thousands at a time. Fox hunting wont be banned just because foxes get hurt, rabbit hunting wont stop just because they are cute fluffy bunnies. For some people its just a way of life and yes its wrong but alot of things in life are wrong.

Also a horse can get hurt just by being ridden in a field and have to be destroyed.... does that mean people should only own horses if they are not going to ride them?


----------



## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

Well i love animals - but eat eat almost everyday & can't see anything wrong with it.
Only thing i don't eat is Lamb - just coz it tastes disgusting


----------



## Guest (Apr 10, 2011)

harley bear said:


> It makes no difference if you bet on horses or not it will always be a sport esp for the wealthy who bet thousands at a time. Fox hunting wont be banned just because foxes get hurt, rabbit hunting wont stop just because they are cute fluffy bunnies. For some people its just a way of life and yes its wrong but alot of things in life are wrong.
> 
> Also a horse can get hurt just by being ridden in a field and have to be destroyed.... does that mean people should only own horses if they are not going to ride them?


This is the whole point isnt it?? The whole argument just gets out of hand, yes the "grand national" argument i can understand after witnessing what i did yesterday and i threw my hands straight up in the air i didnt have too.

But as far as everything else forget it. :nono:


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

harley bear said:


> It makes no difference if you bet on horses or not it will always be a sport esp for the wealthy who bet thousands at a time. Fox hunting wont be banned just because foxes get hurt, rabbit hunting wont stop just because they are cute fluffy bunnies. For some people its just a way of life and yes its wrong but alot of things in life are wrong.
> 
> Also a horse can get hurt just by being ridden in a field and have to be destroyed.... does that mean people should only own horses if they are not going to ride them?


Of course lot of things are wrong which is why many people do not partake of them or condone them ... 

As far as horses and people trying to justify it, after yesterday, I'm simply not in the mood listen to excuses today ....


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Of course lot of things are wrong which is why many people do not partake of them or condone them ...
> 
> As far as horses and people trying to justify it, after yesterday, I'm simply not in the mood listen to excuses today ....


Not making excuses for anything


----------



## angelblue (Aug 4, 2009)

it's a joke.

if what people are saying is true they would spend that much time looking at labels and tracking down where and when and how the pig was killed in their pork pie between trips to the doctor for the foot rot plastic shoes cause after not eating any grain or cereal because the plant cries when it is harvested (please show me the vocal cords of a strawberry)

all while dodging ants on the road and extolling the virtues of a plague ridden swarm of rats.

as their dog snaps the cheap plastic collar and dies under the wheels of a lorry full of baaa lambs heading for chop land.

total nonsense.


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

KathrynH said:


> T
> But as far as everything else forget it. :nono:


That's the last thing anyone who cares about animals would say ...

Just because you ignore something or sweep it under the carpet, it doesn't make it right. How horrible if everyone had felt that way about cock fighting, bear baiting and other animal abuse which at one time was found quite acceptable by so many 

Things are changing and have changed re bloodsports/animal husbandry, slowly, very slowly but in the right direction generally. Long way to go though, but you have to keep doing your bit, however small that may be


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

angelblue said:


> it's a joke.


Buying ethically? Only for those who don't care about animals or the environment ...


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

piggybaker said:


> No honestly or I would not have put it I have seen a documentary of these primates catching and eatting meat,, your right about gibbons though but I didn't mention those by name sorry LOL one of thoses days


orangutan's will eat meat but apparently its only occasionally if they get the opportunity they have a predominantly vegetarian diet , but this is what experts like the late Dian Fossey found in their studies on gorillas

Gorillas have not been reported hunting for meat, nor exhibiting cannibalism, by Dian Fossey or anyone else.

I studied the ecology of lowland gorillas throughout the 1980s and 1990s. My colleague Liz Williamson is a former director of the research programmes at the Karisoke Research Centre in Rwanda, which was started by Dian Fossey. We can confirm that neither activity has been observed at any site where gorillas have been studied. Gorillas do eat ants and termites, but they are otherwise vegetarians in the wild.

but i have seen a documentary on chimps hunting colobus monkeys...it was flippin gruesome



KathrynH said:


> Right ok thanks for that, don't eat tuna so that's sorted.
> 
> While i learnt a very valuable lesson yesterday with the "grand national" and the horror of it and believe me feel awful about what happened.
> 
> This thread has taken the whole "Animal welfare" too far, people need to get a grip of reality i think!!


its got nothing to do with losing a grip on reality...its about the conscienses of individuals.


----------



## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> That's the last thing anyone who cares about animals would say ...
> 
> Just because you ignore something or sweep it under the carpet, it doesn't make it right. How horrible if everyone had felt that way about cock fighting, bear baiting and other animal abuse which at one time was found quite acceptable by so many
> 
> Things are changing and have changed re bloodsports/animal husbandry, slowly, very slowly but in the right direction generally. Long way to go though, but you have to keep doing your bit, however small that may be


Amethyst you alright... you seem a bit waspish today!!!! I've known you passionate but not stressy.


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

piggybaker said:


> Amethyst you alright... you seem a bit waspish today!!!! I've known you passionate but not stressy.


Don't be so rude 

What's wrong, have I hit a nerve with you


----------



## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> orangutan's will eat meat but apparently its only occasionally if they get the opportunity they have a predominantly vegetarian diet , but this is what experts like the late Dian Fossey found in their studies on gorillas
> 
> Gorillas have not been reported hunting for meat, nor exhibiting cannibalism, by Dian Fossey or anyone else.
> 
> ...


LOL so I was on the right lines just got it a bit ass upwards a


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

piggybaker said:


> LOL so I was on the right lines just got it a bit ass upwards a


lol i do that all the time


----------



## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> our teeth are Not like that of a carnivore....
> 
> Human teeth are also similar to those found in other herbivores with the exception of the canines (the canines of some of the apes are elongated and are thought to be used for display and/or defense). Our teeth are rather large and usually abut against one another. The incisors are flat and spade-like, useful for peeling, snipping and biting relatively soft materials. The canines are neither serrated nor conical, but are flattened, blunt and small and function Like incisors. The premolars and molars are squarish, flattened and nodular, and used for crushing, grinding and pulping noncoarse foods.
> 
> Human saliva contains the carbohydrate-digesting enzyme, salivary amylase. This enzyme is responsible for the majority of starch digestion. The esophagus is narrow and suited to small, soft balls of thoroughly chewed food. Eating quickly, attempting to swallow a large amount of food or swallowing fibrous and/or poorly chewed food (meat is the most frequent culprit) often results in choking in humans.


*Very intellectual...and drivel...*

Man is an Omnivore...*period*..You don't like it, hard luck.Clever clever theories will never alter the fact.

You wouldn't be on this planet if your ancestors were pure vegetarians.A nice comforting thought for vegetarians...but complete and utter rubbish.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

poohdog said:


> *Very intellectual...and drivel...*
> 
> Man is an Omnivore...*period*..You don't like it, hard luck.Clever clever theories will never alter the fact.
> 
> .


i never said he wasnt i was discussing teeth


----------



## Guest (Apr 10, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> That's the last thing anyone who cares about animals would say ...
> 
> Just because you ignore something or sweep it under the carpet, it doesn't make it right. How horrible if everyone had felt that way about cock fighting, bear baiting and other animal abuse which at one time was found quite acceptable by so many
> 
> Things are changing and have changed re bloodsports/animal husbandry, slowly, very slowly but in the right direction generally. Long way to go though, but you have to keep doing your bit, however small that may be


Dont be so stupid!! 

I love animals, i have animals, your talking like i am going to cook my cat or rabbit etc!!!

I have taken note of what was said yesterday about the "grand national" but i am not going to let you TRY and Dictate to "us" that we should ALL be turning vegetarian, not buying leather sofas etc etc the list goes on clearly, as i said earlier if you feel THIS strongly about EVERY SINGLE animal in this world then "Do something about it" join petition groups, go and meet with people that protest about these things on a weekly basis, not be on a pet forum throwing accusations as people that because we don't join in with your ideas we are "terrible people" and do not care about "animals"


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

poohdog said:


> *Very intellectual...and drivel...*


 :Yawn: Time to enjoy the sun and open the Rose, hope it's well chilled ...


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

KathrynH said:


> Dont be so stupid!!
> 
> I love animals, i have animals, your talking like i am going to cook my cat or rabbit etc!!!
> 
> I have taken note of what was said yesterday about the "grand national" but i am not going to let you TRY and Dictate to "us" that we should ALL be turning vegetarian, not buying leather sofas etc etc the list goes on clearly, as i said earlier if you feel THIS strongly about EVERY SINGLE animal in this world then "Do something about it" join petition groups, go and meet with people that protest about these things on a weekly basis, not be on a pet forum throwing accusations as people that because we don't join in with your ideas we are "terrible people" and do not care about "animals"


Ditto my previous post to Poodog ...


----------



## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> Don't be so rude
> 
> What's wrong, have I hit a nerve with you


Nope not at all


----------



## Guest (Apr 10, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> :Yawn: Time to enjoy the sun and open the Rose, hope it's well chilled ...


I hope you have checked to make sure where that "rose" came from and the contents and the labelling and the bottle!!


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

poohdog said:


> *Very intellectual...and drivel...*
> 
> Man is an Omnivore...*period*..You don't like it, hard luck.Clever clever theories will never alter the fact.
> 
> You wouldn't be on this planet if your ancestors were pure vegetarians.A nice comforting thought for vegetarians...but complete and utter rubbish.


Before I say anything I love meat and can't see myself giving up a nice piece of steak or a bacon sandwich.

But the fact is we are not completely designed to eat meat, we started as gathers like most of the ape family. I'm not sure why this changed or when, but we can easily live without meat.


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

willa said:


> Well i love animals - but eat eat almost everyday & can't see anything wrong with it.
> Only thing i don't eat is Lamb - just coz it tastes disgusting


yer is that new zealand sheep ?  may be a reason it tastes too salty


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Is there reallt that many people that claim to be such animal lovers they absolutely avoid everything animal related and how?

I love all animals or so i thought, obviously i dont, i eat meat, wear leather shoes, have a leather suite and car seats cant see anything in my life tbh that indicates ime an animal lover.


----------



## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

A girl came and bought a horse from the dealer I worked for .. for a bit.. sh bought the horse and we had to order her the tack .. Non leather.. She didn't at meat or use any products that have had anything to do with as she saw animal cruelty..
I reckon her life must be pretty difficult..


----------



## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

Happy Paws said:


> Before I say anything I love meat and can't see myself giving up a nice piece of steak or a bacon sandwich.
> 
> *But the fact is we are not completely designed to eat meat*, we started as gathers like most of the ape family. I'm not sure why this changed or when, but we can easily live without meat.


Like it or not we are omnivores...and always have been.Early Neanderthals lived in coastal regions and thrived on mussels,oysters and seafoods,as found in their ancient rubbish dumps.Like the later peoples of Shetlands and Orkney.
No doubt they would have been quite happy to live on a diet of vegetables...but in the winter months mankind could not have survived without the protein available from predated or carrion meat of whatever description.
A study of the ancient tribes be they Bushmen or Australian Aborgine proves this beyond any doubt.In the summer and autumn months their women with their digging sticks provided the camp...(and still do) with sufficient roots,nuts and fruits to sustain the tribe...but out of season all peoples of the earth relied on other animals for sustenance.


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> Is there reallt that many people that claim to be such animal lovers they absolutely avoid everything animal related and how?
> 
> I love all animals or so i thought, obviously i dont, i eat meat, wear leather shoes, have a leather suite and car seats cant see anything in my life tbh that indicates ime an animal lover.


I could not avoid everything.

I just had a look around, leather wallet, leather purse, leather hand made moccasins, leather bag, leather belt. Not to mention facial cleansers, moistener, etc that some are used on animals.

Like I said before I try and change some things but others are very expensive to do so and I just dont have the money.


----------



## angelblue (Aug 4, 2009)

poohdog said:


> Like it or not we are omnivores...and always have been.Early Neanderthals lived in coastal regions and thrived on mussels,oysters and seafoods,as found in their ancient rubbish dumps.Like the later peoples of Shetlands and Orkney.
> No doubt they would have been quite happy to live on a diet of vegetables...but in the winter months mankind could not have survived without the protein available from predated or carrion meat of whatever description.
> A study of the ancient tribes be they Bushmen or Australian Aborgine proves this beyond any doubt.In the summer and autumn months their women with their digging sticks provided the camp...(and still do) with sufficient roots,nuts and fruits to sustain the tribe...but out of season all peoples of the earth relied on other animals for sustenance.


agreed, but man has always had to process meat in some way to be able to eat and digest it properly.
be it boiling, cooking or just smoking or jerking.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

CharleyRogan said:


> I see what your vegi friend means, these days we do not NEED to eat meat because of advances in medical science that allows us to put these vitamins into tablet form so we could perfectly live without meat.


Sorry, I do not agree. Whilst I admit that it is possible to eat a healthy vegetarian diet, if you know what you are doing, most people do not know or fully understand enough about nutrition to be able to follow said diet.

First, while many vitamins and nutrients can be found in a vegetarian diet in abundance, others can be severely lacking or further inhibited from proper absorption due to a large intake of other active nutrients that may react differently in a vegetarian diet as compared to a non-vegetarian diet.

For example, all vegetarians need to ensure that their diet contains a proper amount of daily protein and iron, which can be found in some vegetarian foods but is not always as easily absorbed by the body as it is in animal-based foods. Moreover, many vegetarian meals can tend to be high in fiber, and thus can inhibit proper levels of essential minerals from being absorbed by the body and diets high in carbohydrate can lead to obesity. Protein is not stored in the body as fat whereas carbohydrate is stored as fat.

Recent and continuing health studies have made scientists more aware of the importance of essential fatty acids and omega-3s, which are important for helping to regulate body functions. For vegetarians to ensure a proper intake of essential fatty acids, foods such as edible seaweeds are required. How many vegetarians are eating edible seaweed?

Plus, vitamin or mineral supplements aren't a substitute for a balanced, nutritious diet. Simply put, a vitamin supplement is considered a supplement, not a replacement for food. The best vitamins and minerals are natural vitamins and minerals and not the synthetic type which you find in many supplements because natural vitamins and minerals are more easily absorbed by the body. So if you are going to choose a supplement, you have to pay for a good quality natural product. Unfortunately, some of these natural products, a vegetarian cannot take because it would be against their principles.

Also there are so many different types of supplement out there and not all of them match the correct RDA levels required by the human body, so how does a vegetarian know if they are using the correct one? Many supplements on the market today exceed many times the RDA levels. The excess can lead you to consume mega doses of vitamins and can result in high levels of the fat soluble vitamins (vitamins A, D, E, K) being stored in your body, which is toxic.

What I would say, though, is that most of us eat far more meat and fish products than our body actually needs. We should all reduce the amount of meat or fish on our plate and replace it with more leafy green vegetables. We only need very small amounts of animal proteins to survive and stay healthy. Whereas vegetarians need to consume much larger quantities of vegetable proteins to achieve the same levels, something many vegetarians are not doing.

At the end of the day, as far as I am concerned, there is a huge difference between an animal I consider a pet and one I consider to be food. While I believe it would be morally wrong to eat an animal I think of as a pet; I do not consider it morally wrong to eat an animal which has for centuries been considered food. Therefore, what I would say is that I love my pets but I also love my food but for very different reasons.


----------



## bigdaddy (Feb 5, 2011)

they are bred to be food i like animals but that dont stop me from eating them


----------



## angelblue (Aug 4, 2009)

goog post, but fails to take into account how modern society has influenced food intake.

early man got a balanced diet from roots, berries fish molluscs etc.

a true carnivore is a hunter / predator or like the hyena an opportunist scavenger.

all this rda stuff is mighty fine.

and to say that man needed a larger amount of greens to get his energy so what?

thats what they had to do.
we learned to eat meat, to cook it, to utilise it, to use skins and tendon etc.

we werent designed for it, we adapted our methods but our bodies did not adapt. we have to process meat somehow prior to eating.

but we can eat many seafood raw. 

anyway sod it off for a blt, best of both worlds.

btw, what has being an animal lover got to do with eating meat?????


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

angelblue said:


> please qualify where you got the information that our teeth were designed to tear meat.
> human teeth are pretty poor at tearing meat, try it with some raw beef and race your dog.
> our teeth are a comprimise, we were originally herbivores and our teeth are designed mainly for eating leaves , shoots etc and grinding them up. deffo not for tearing up meat from carcasses. and please dont say you didnt mean dead animals carcasses cos nature dont make allowances for knives forks and cooking. we have tiny little incisors and canines, a small mouth as herbivores do, look how large thenmouth on a true meat eateater is.
> 
> ...


I never said our teeth were designed to eat raw meat, you made that assumption, please do not put words into my mouth. These are your thoughts and not mine.

I am referring to our canine teeth which are designed to tear at meat. Yes, I agree, they are not as well developed as say a dog or a cat, but nonetheless, they do the job perfectly adequately on cooked food.

Sorry, but I will say that nature makes allowances for knives and forks because we have also developed a brain far superior in intelligence to that of a dog or a cat, which has enabled us to develop methods of cooking and inventing utensils which aid our consumption of foods such as meat and vegetables so, no, I am not referring to dead animal carcasses as you assume once again.

Where do you get your information from that "we were originally herbivores and our teeth are designed mainly for eating leaves , shoots etc and grinding them up?" Probably from the same unresearched opinion as opposed to fact that you accuse me of but since you say so, you clearly think we must all believe it. Thank you God for your wisdom.

I have not said that Iron it totally absent from a vegetarian diet but it can be deficient and is in many a vegetarian diet because they do not know what they are doing insofar as proper nutrition is concerned. Try checking your facts. In order to eat enough Iron large quantities of spinch has to be consumed every single day.

Also, try not speaking to me in such a rude manner, it would be greatly appreciated. After all, I too am an animal and a little bit of respect would go a long way.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

harley bear said:


> Shame on you! How can you enjoy a fat juicy steak and look at your animals in the eye


I am animal lover. I absolutely love steak, I love pork, I love lamb, I love fish: I love all of it, so how am I not an animal lover?


----------



## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I'm also a meat eater only small amounts of Beef for me, mostly Chicken or pork with the occaisional Elk...luv Elk don't like deer meat. I don't have leather furniture but have leather coats and chaps etc. as I use them regulary on the Bike. I love my dogs and cats and couldn't eat Horse or Rabbit. I also like a bit of Buffalo but not often once every year or two....Jill


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> the guts of meat eaters is very short designed to expel the toxins found in meat quickly, we have a very long gut evolved to digest vegetable matter .
> 
> vegetarians who eat a balanced diet are on the whole very healthy and statistically are less likely to get cancers like bowel cancer.


Wish someone had told nature that. My sister was vegetarian and died from bowel cancer last year. A couple of years prior to that she was in and out of hospital with bowel problems cause by insufficient fat in her diet, at least, that is what the doctors told her.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Jess2308 said:


> If I had to eat my own animals... I couldnt do it. But, I do love a nice cheeseburger or a sunday roast
> 
> I do make sure to buy my meat from the local butcher where possible, its all locally sourced and humanely slaughtered.
> 
> My grandad was a fishmonger (i cant stand fish though, strangely lol) and he also used to have chickens for some reason. He would dispatch the chooks on site so they were very fresh to be sold. I have done it myself because I tend to believe (and this is just my personal opinion and I dont expect us all to do it lol) that if you are going to eat meat you should be prepared to be the one to kill the animal in order to do it. Now, i dont go around murdering the neighbours chickens for dinner :lol: But, the fact that I have done it and can do it I think makes me feel better about eating meat. A friend of mine cant face even the thought of her roast dinner having been an animal not so long ago and refuses to even think about it, which i think is a bit of a blinkered view. If you dont think about it, then how can you be sure you're supporting proper farming practices?


Trust me, if I was hungry enough, I would kill to eat and I think most people would.


----------



## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Sacremist said:


> Trust me, if I was hungry enough, I would kill to eat and I think most people would.


I wouldn't.. I know I would starve to death.. I know my feelings..


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> our teeth are Not like that of a carnivore....
> 
> Human teeth are also similar to those found in other herbivores with the exception of the canines (the canines of some of the apes are elongated and are thought to be used for display and/or defense). Our teeth are rather large and usually abut against one another. The incisors are flat and spade-like, useful for peeling, snipping and biting relatively soft materials. The canines are neither serrated nor conical, but are flattened, blunt and small and function Like incisors. The premolars and molars are squarish, flattened and nodular, and used for crushing, grinding and pulping noncoarse foods.
> 
> Human saliva contains the carbohydrate-digesting enzyme, salivary amylase. This enzyme is responsible for the majority of starch digestion. The esophagus is narrow and suited to small, soft balls of thoroughly chewed food. Eating quickly, attempting to swallow a large amount of food or swallowing fibrous and/or poorly chewed food (meat is the most frequent culprit) often results in choking in humans.


If what you say is true, how come billions of people around the world today are eating meat, quite successfully, without choking and living well into old age? Yes, we have to cook most of our food to make it digestible (although I eat my steak blue) and we have to use utensils to cut it up into small pieces but that's why human beings have the big brain isn't it? Our superior intelligence enables us to invent what we need for our survival , just like we use our brains to develop clothing to keep us warm, build houses for shelter.


----------



## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

Sacremist said:


> I am animal lover. I absolutely love steak, I love pork, I love lamb, I love fish: I love all of it, so how am I not an animal lover?


Ditto. i eat meat everyday - got chicken for supper tonight .


----------



## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

momentofmadness said:


> I wouldn't.. I know I would starve to death.. I know my feelings..


im the same


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

CharleyRogan said:


> You might think I'm weird but I don't like picking flowers just in case it does hurt them, I mean one minute they are alive and next min you pick them and they are dead. Call me weird but I can't pick plants because I know they are now dead.
> 
> I also would not buy a leather sofa and I don't buy leather shoes!


Brocolli and cabbage are living organisms too!


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sacremist said:


> Wish someone had told nature that. My sister was vegetarian and died from bowel cancer last year. A couple of years prior to that she was in and out of hospital with bowel problems cause by insufficient fat in her diet, at least, that is what the doctors told her.


so sorry about your Sister x i was only stating a fact that we dont have a short gut like a carnivore because you were saying thats what we are.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sacremist said:


> Brocolli and cabbage are living organisms too!


but theyre not sentient feeling organisms.


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

Reading this post has made me fancy a roast beef dinner with all the trimmings,,,mmmmmmm:thumbup:


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

angelblue said:


> just to say vegitarian actually means
> lively / vigourous
> 
> it only began to be used to describe the veggies in the 1800's. which is how most people now associate it.
> ...


This is the author of that page Randy Rondeau

Health Minister

Who is he?

Where's he from?

Who is his audience?

What is the purpose of his writing?

Do we know his qualifications?

Can we verify his facts as true?

Have you considered any counter-arguments from another expert?


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

gorgeous said:


> Reading this post has made me fancy a roast beef dinner with all the trimmings,,,mmmmmmm:thumbup:


Mmmmmmm me too, roast beef is my favourite i could honestly live without white meat, but roast beef or a steak i would find difficult.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

angelblue said:


> agreed, but man has always had to process meat in some way to be able to eat and digest it properly.
> be it boiling, cooking or just smoking or jerking.


So what is wrong with that? We are still designed to eat meat, fish and vegetables. You are just being pedantic and nit-picking.


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> Mmmmmmm me too, roast beef is my favourite i could honestly live without white meat, but roast beef or a steak i would find difficult.


I occasionally have roast beef, but only organic, not only a more humane option, but it's so much better for you


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> so sorry about your Sister x i was only stating a fact that we dont have a short gut like a carnivore because you were saying thats what we are.


Sorry, my mistake, I meant to say we are omnivores not carnivores. An example of my fingers going a bit faster than my brain and the wrong word was typed.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> but theyre not sentient feeling organisms.


How do you know? Has one told you?


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Sacremist said:


> I am animal lover. I absolutely love steak, I love pork, I love lamb, I love fish: I love all of it, so how am I not an animal lover?


You obviously have not read all of the thread NOWHERE have i said that a meat eater is not an animal lover.... that would make me a hypocrite.


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

momentofmadness said:


> I wouldn't.. I know I would starve to death.. I know my feelings..


I couldn't kill anything either, I'd just starve to death.


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

OK we all turn vegetarian, what are we going to do with all the animals we have breed to eat ???????????????????


----------



## bigdaddy (Feb 5, 2011)

plants are living things people kill them to eat them same thing aint it


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Happy Paws said:


> OK we all turn vegetarian, what are we going to do with all the animals we have breed to eat ???????????????????


then there'd be no need to breed them in the 1st place, and tbh from the animals point of view im pretty certain they'd rather not be born if they knew what was instore for them....i know i would:tongue_smilie:



bigdaddy said:


> ts are living things people kill them to eat them same thing aint it


whats a ts?


----------



## Guest (Apr 10, 2011)

harley bear said:


> I wonder how many people who have posted on this thread have leather sofas.
> I doubt many people go shopping for a sofa and think of all the poor cows that have died


Can honestly say no! I don't even wear silk because of the silk worms. If I phone for a taxi and the seats are leather I have to explain and get another. It's not easy but I wouldn't feel comfortable in myself if I only dabbled and made excuses when I wanted to use other things.

Having said that I really don't mind what other people do. I feed my animals meat because they haven't chosen not to and I'd find it a bit ironic to not eat meat myself due to concern for the animals....but then change another animals diet to suit my own opinions.

My dad is also a big meat eater. In fact I doubt he's eaten anything that hasn't died since about 1972 :lol:

Em
xx


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> then there'd be no need to breed them in the 1st place, and tbh from the animals point of view im pretty certain they'd rather not be born if they knew what was instore for them....i know i would:tongue_smilie:


What I meant was, if we all stopped eating meat NOW what are we going to the animals we already have.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Happy Paws said:


> What I meant was, if we all stopped eating meat NOW what are we going to the animals we already have.


i'd love to think that one day we'd have that problem to solve but its not gunna happen and if it did i'd think it would be a gradual process, as it is more and more people are changing to vegetarianism or veganism so less animals need to be killed

an average vegetarian spares the lives of over 50 animals each year. That adds up to thousands during a lifetime


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> whats a ts?


I think they may meant plants? Not sure though,but think they mentioned this earlier


----------



## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

Anyone that says they would rather starve than kill to eat has never been starving in their life.
Ask any still surviving prisoner of war of the Japanese.


----------



## angelblue (Aug 4, 2009)

sacremist said:


> this is the author of that page randy rondeau
> 
> health minister
> 
> ...


ha ha , he is more qualified to speak on the subject than we are.

You're just trying to be a bit funny tbh. Use your noggin f.g.s.


----------



## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> i'd love to think that one day we'd have that problem to solve but its not gunna happen and if it did i'd think it would be a gradual process, as it is more and more people are changing to vegetarianism or veganism so less animals need to be killed
> 
> *an average vegetarian spares the lives of over 50 animals each year.* That adds up to thousands during a lifetime


Can I just ask how that works? I find it a bit far fetched. I mean, if I turn vegetarian this week, I doubt the local slaughter house will say, "Hey up lads, Classixuk is no longer eating meat, so we best kill one less cow".


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Eroswoof said:


> Can honestly say no! I don't even wear silk because of the silk worms. If I phone for a taxi and the seats are leather I have to explain and get another. It's not easy but I wouldn't feel comfortable in myself if I only dabbled and made excuses when I wanted to use other things.
> 
> Having said that I really don't mind what other people do. I feed my animals meat because they haven't chosen not to and I'd find it a bit ironic to not eat meat myself due to concern for the animals....but then change another animals diet to suit my own opinions.
> 
> ...


Silk worms make silk anyway they are not subjected to cruelty to get their silk...


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

classixuk said:


> Can I just ask how that works? I find it a bit far fetched. I mean, if I turn vegetarian this week, I doubt the local slaughter house will say, "Hey up lads, Classixuk is no longer eating meat, so we best kill one less cow".


^^^^^^^

the same amount of animals will still be slaughtered.

Lets be PERFECTLY clear EVERY person who owns and animal and feeds it either tinned food or raw food YOU ARE contributing to the slaughter of these animals.  but lets brush that under the carpet:


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

I eat meat ! and yes I love animals - I dont "Abuse" animals I dont kick,hit,bite,drown,starve them,microwave them, - I personally dont feel I have to justify eating meat and I certainly dont think if you do that it makes you any less of an animal lover than a vegetarian.


----------



## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> I eat meat ! and yes I love animals - I dont "Abuse" animals I dont kick,hit,bite,drown,starve them,*microwave them*, - I personally dont feel I have to justify eating meat and I certainly dont think if you do that it makes you any less of an animal lover than a vegetarian.


Totally agree...the microwave tends to dry the meat out around the edges.

The oven is much better.


----------



## Staysee (Oct 19, 2009)

I eat meat but alot less then i did when i was younger.

If theres a veggie option, i'll probably go for it...like sausages, i LOVE quorn sausages and rarely do i eat meat sausages cos im REALLY picky with them and find quorn ones always taste how i like

Always have a roast of a sunday, but have far more veg then meat....otherwise throughout the week out of 7 days, i reckon i eat meat 3 or 4 of those days, when i was younger it was probably 7 out of 7 days! haha

And like others said, when im eating the meat i dont think about it as an animal, its food too me


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Staysee said:


> I eat meat but alot less then i did when i was younger.
> 
> If theres a veggie option, i'll probably go for it...like sausages, i LOVE quorn sausages and rarely do i eat meat sausages cos im REALLY picky with them and find quorn ones always taste how i like
> 
> ...


Yes, it's great that there are so many vegetarian options now which are really quite nice


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

classixuk said:


> Totally agree...the microwave tends to dry the meat out around the edges.
> 
> The oven is much better.


Trust you! lol seriously though! I have read a few threads on here over the weekend and my god! what a righteous bunch!


----------



## Staysee (Oct 19, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> Yes, it's great that there are so many vegetarian options now which are really quite nice


I have a fantastic veggie dish which i adore and would eat every day, which my dad made up for me

Noodles, Any amount of veg you want chucked in and use soya sauce and onions and maybe a lil garlic to add a little taste and VOILA

OK so its kinda a stir fry, but its better then a stir fry and its better cold and you can have it with or without meat....thats unless soya sauce has some meat content which i dunno, but even if it does i think dad uses like a teaspoon and then adds water so it coats everything


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> Trust you! lol seriously though! I have read a few threads on here over the weekend and my god! what a righteous bunch!


Got that right aint it


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

harley bear said:


> You obviously have not read all of the thread NOWHERE have i said that a meat eater is not an animal lover.... that would make me a hypocrite.


I have read the whole of this thread and if you read the original post, the question was about how we could call ourselves animal lovers and still eat meat. You clearly have no sense of humour.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Happy Paws said:


> I couldn't kill anything either, I'd just starve to death.


Yeah! Oh look a flying pig!


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> I think they may meant plants? Not sure though,but think they mentioned this earlier


omg they'll be nothin left for me to eat soon



classixuk said:


> Can I just ask how that works? I find it a bit far fetched. I mean, if I turn vegetarian this week, I doubt the local slaughter house will say, "Hey up lads, Classixuk is no longer eating meat, so we best kill one less cow".


i dunno

tho its logical to assume if supply and demand works for other things it works in the meat industry aswell, but no it cant be as simplistic as i put it my previous post



harley bear said:


> Silk worms make silk anyway they are not subjected to cruelty to get their silk...


their cocoons are boiled alive.



harley bear said:


> ^^^^^^^
> 
> the same amount of animals will still be slaughtered.
> 
> Lets be PERFECTLY clear EVERY person who owns and animal and feeds it either tinned food or raw food YOU ARE contributing to the slaughter of these animals.  but lets brush that under the carpet:


i dont brush anything under the carpet i feed my dogs the meat they need, but i choose not to eat it myself, i dont preach to anyone even my oh and Sons eat chicken and fish so i have to buy and prepare it for them aswell...but i try to make sure i only buy free range or organic chicken or if its fish sustainably caught...i just do the best i can.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

poohdog said:


> Anyone that says they would rather starve than kill to eat has never been starving in their life.
> Ask any still surviving prisoner of war of the Japanese.


Exactly! None of us has any idea of how far we would go if faced with the prospect of starving to death. Our instinct to survive kicks in. Look at those people in the Andes whose plane crashed. They resorted to cannibalism, eating the flesh of those who died so they could survive. Anyone who says they would rather starve is talking rot!


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

angelblue said:


> ha ha , he is more qualified to speak on the subject than we are.
> 
> You're just trying to be a bit funny tbh. Use your noggin f.g.s.


What a really intelligent response! I think not!


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Sacremist said:


> Exactly! None of us has any idea of how far we would go if faced with the prospect of starving to death. Our instinct to survive kicks in. Look at those people in the Andes whose plane crashed. They resorted to cannibalism, eating the flesh of those who died so they could survive. Anyone who says they would rather starve is talking rot!


I remember watching a film on the Andes Plane crash horrific but just goes to highlight that in reality we would do what we had to do to survive - Its very easy to sit here behind a computer screen with a cupboard and fridge full of food and be adamant we could not kill anything but I think most of us would have to ........I wouldnt WANT to and it would upset me intensely but I wanting to live would kick in I suppose - and thats being realistic.


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I can see why people say they would rather starve and they could never eat their pets, but do agree that fortunately we dont know what its like to be truely starving and as they say,"you will eat owt if you are starving"


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> omg they'll be nothin left for me to eat soon


You might be allowed to suck on a sugar lump in peace


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> You might be allowed to suck on a sugar lump in peace


Nope! Sugar comes from plants and plants are life forms.


----------



## Guinevere13 (Mar 31, 2008)

Some of the people on the crashed plane in the Andes did refuse to eat the others.


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

So we cant eat meat because it used to have a pulse, we cant eat any veg that came from a plant because we make it cry when its picked we cant eat fish.... what on earth can we eat and have a clear conscience?


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

harley bear said:


> So we cant eat meat because it used to have a pulse, we cant eat any veg that came from a plant because we make it cry when its picked we cant eat fish.... what on earth can we eat and have a clear conscience?


Yourself! But there will still be some self-righteous busybody on the sidelines denouncing you for that as well.


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Sacremist said:


> Yourself! But there will still be some self-righteous busybody on the sidelines denouncing you for that as well.


Its ridiculous, this thread has got really silly:blink:


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Sacremist said:


> Yourself! But there will still be some self-righteous busybody on the sidelines denouncing you for that as well.


I so shouldn't laugh but cant help it


----------



## skyblue (Sep 15, 2010)

Sacremist said:


> At the end of the day, the survival of our own species is paramount.


this one line should kill the debate

now think about it if you will,as mans numbers increase so do the numbers of food animals,take the eating of animals away and how many farmyard animals would there be?....things like cows sheep and pigs etc would become zoo animals because of they're rarity,in the same way wild animals like rabbits,pheasants and ducks would become vermin because no-one would be hunting them...besides,i'm not prepared to give up my saturday steak


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

harley bear said:


> Its ridiculous, this thread has got really silly:blink:


Agree its gone way over the top, next to ridiculous i would say.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

harley bear said:


> Its ridiculous, this thread has got really silly:blink:


It's better than arguing about something none of us can win.:tongue_smilie:


----------



## Guinevere13 (Mar 31, 2008)

Anyone see the Restaurant at the End of the Universe???

"My liver is particularly tender, I have been forcefeeding myself for months."


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

skyblue said:


> this one line should kill the debate
> 
> now think about it if you will,as mans numbers increase so do the numbers of food animals,take the eating of animals away and how many farmyard animals would there be?....things like cows sheep and pigs etc would become zoo animals because of they're rarity,in the same way wild animals like rabbits,pheasants and ducks would become vermin because no-one would be hunting them...besides,i'm not prepared to give up my saturday steak


There could be other potential issues as well. The less meat we eat so the more vegetables. Beans, pulses we need to eat and grow. There are already people starving in other countries due to lack of arable land or failed crops. Could we in all honestly feed the billions of people in this world on vegetation alone? Do we have the land and resources available to do that?

We could not leave cows and sheep etc., to graze on that land because we will need it for the increased crop production.

Therefore, as it has been said already, where do we keep farm animals: in zoos? How long will it be before these animals, which would no longer be part of the food chain, become extinct or near extinction?

We already know from experience that when a species has it's habitat taken from it, it can die out. We would have no choice but to take the land they feed on, we would need it to feed humanity, to ensure the survival of our own species.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> gorillas are vegetarian, and orangutan and gibbons are predominantly fruit eaters, its only chimps that regularly kill and eat their own prey.


You forgot baboons, chacma/olive baboons are definitely omniverous, and their canines are some of the largest in the animal kingdom.



Amethyst said:


> People are free to focus on whatever aspect of cruelty they feel strongly about. They are also entitled to THEIR opinion on any manner of animal abuse
> 
> I know it upsets you when people talk about the horrors of bloodsports because you like it or The Grand National, but that's life, these things are abhorrent to true animal lovers many of which will buy ethically, be vegetarians, etc.
> 
> Even if they are not/do not, it doesn't mean their opinion of bloodsports/racing is any less valid


It doesn't upset me one bit when people talk of the horror of blood sports, as they see it, everyone's entitled to their opinion. What never ceases to amaze me is that people justify cruelty in one form, and accept it in another, because to do so means they can live with one cruelty, patting themselves on the back whilst doing so, because they condemn another form of cruelty.

PS, that's assuming you think blood sports are cruel, which is another debate entirely and one that I know you won't discuss on here, but are more likely to try and tell me to start another thread, however, life's too short, and besides, if I want to start a thread, I will, with or without anyone telling me to


----------



## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

Just wanted to point out that people who eat fish but not meat are pescetarian, not vegetarian. I've noticed that the same old myths get perpetuated regarding a vegetarian diet and it can be tiresome.

-Not true about the land issues. 'A typical meat eater's diet requires up to 2.5 times the amount of land compared to a vegetarian diet and 5 times that of a vegan diet.'

-'A farmer can feed up to 30 people throughout the year with vegetables, fruits, cereals and vegetable fats on one hectare of land. If the same area is used for the production of eggs, milk and/or meat the number of people fed varies from 5-10.'

-'Research shows vegetarians are no more prone to iron deficiency than meat-eaters, in fact only 14% of iron in the household food supply is obtained from meat and meat products. Iron is found in leafy green vegetables, pulses, wholemeal bread, dried fruit and pumpkin seeds etc.'

-'Infants, children and adolescents can meet all of their nutritional requirements on a vegetarian diet, a fact recognised by the British Medical Association and the British Dietetic Association.'

The Vegetarian Society's website is a very informative resource if anyone wishes to have a look: Vegetarian Society - Why Veggie


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Guinevere13 said:


> Some of the people on the crashed plane in the Andes did refuse to eat the others.


Not from what I have been reading but if you can find where it says dufferentdifferent then fair enough. Remember, many died before they had the chance to eat and not from starvation but other accidental causes.


----------



## Guest (Apr 10, 2011)

harley bear said:


> Silk worms make silk anyway they are not subjected to cruelty to get their silk...


Still doesn't sit right with me but there we go  Anyway, nuff said by me

Em
xx


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

shibby said:


> -Not true about the land issues. 'A typical meat eater's diet requires up to 2.5 times the amount of land compared to a vegetarian diet and 5 times that of a vegan diet.'
> 
> -'A farmer can feed up to 30 people throughout the year with vegetables, fruits, cereals and vegetable fats on one hectare of land. If the same area is used for the production of eggs, milk and/or meat the number of people fed varies from 5-10.'
> Why Veggie[/url]


We are clearly conversing with different dieticians with very different points of view.

As for the farming figures quoted is this the amount of vegetables consumed referring to a person who is eating an omnivorous diet or are they based on the consumption of your average vegetarian? They sound a little unbelievable, tbh.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> You forgot baboons, chacma/olive baboons are definitely omniverous, and their canines are some of the largest in the animal kingdom.
> 
> It doesn't upset me one bit when people talk of the horror of blood sports, as they see it, everyone's entitled to their opinion. What never ceases to amaze me is that people justify cruelty in one form, and accept it in another, because to do so means they can live with one cruelty, patting themselves on the back whilst doing so, because they condemn another form of cruelty.
> 
> PS, that's assuming you think blood sports are cruel, which is another debate entirely and one that I know you won't discuss on here, but are more likely to try and tell me to start another thread, however, life's too short, and besides, if I want to start a thread, I will, with or without anyone telling me to


i was talking Apes rather than monkeys

and i dont condone any form of cruelty.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> i was talking Apes rather than monkeys
> 
> and i dont condone any form of cruelty.


Apes and monkeys are an interesting debate, gibbons were for many years classed as monkeys, and now apes. Baboons are incredible creatures, there are a number of different species but all have the amazing canines.

Confused by your last statement, I don't think I said you did condone any form of cruelty, as you see it?


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> You know fine well I do


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> You know fine well I do


Yes, I do, but you have yet to come up with any explanation as to why they are as cruel, or any more cruel, than the rearing of domestic animals for slaughter, all you do is tell me to start a new thread


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Apes and monkeys are an interesting debate, gibbons were for many years classed as monkeys, and now apes. Baboons are incredible creatures, there are a number of different species but all have the amazing canines.
> 
> Confused by your last statement, I don't think I said you did condone any form of cruelty, as you see it?


Dont Gorillas and baboons sometimes kill their own to eat??  Im sure Ive seen a documentary on baboons who did this.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> Dont Gorillas and baboons sometimes kill their own to eat??  Im sure Ive seen a documentary on baboons who did this.


I don't know off hand, although I think with baboons I've heard of this, but that could be down to (and I'm guessing here) genetics, and killing off offspring that don't carry your genes, which is similar to many species, not just apes/monkies.


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Yes, I do, but you have yet to come up with any explanation as to why they are as cruel, or any more cruel, than the rearing of domestic animals for slaughter, all you do is tell me to start a new thread


Chill out and get yourself another glass of red


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Chill out and get yourself another glass of red


ditto ..


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> Chill out and get yourself another glass of red


Wow, and I didn't even get told to start a new thread to go with my glass of red


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I don't know off hand, although I think with baboons I've heard of this, but that could be down to (and I'm guessing here) genetics, and killing off offspring that don't carry your genes, which is similar to many species, not just apes/monkies.


Yes Im sure it was baboons and they were grouping together to kill for no apparent reason - it was all strategically planned I remember me and OH were amazed when watching it - it wasnt young offspring it was adults maybe it was another male but it was deffo in their group not a rival .....


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Wow, and I didn't even get told to start a new thread to go with my glass of red


No but just be careful you don't choke on it


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> Yes Im sure it was baboons and they were grouping together to kill for no apparent reason - it was all strategically planned I remember me and OH were amazed when watching it - it wasnt young offspring it was adults maybe it was another male but it was deffo in their group not a rival .....


Possible rival males then, although the females can be pretty rough too! It's amazing when you start looking at different animal groups, how they behave, connive, plot and plan and we think us humans are the worst!! Animals are fabulous at showing us just how base instincts can run.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> No but just be careful you don't choke on it


Aww now that sounds bitter, almost as if you're uncaring


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Aww now that sounds bitter, almost as if you're uncaring


And an animal lover too.:tongue_smilie:


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Aww now that sounds bitter, almost as if you're uncaring


Simply hate to see good wine wasted :tongue_smilie:


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Possible rival males then, although the females can be pretty rough too! It's amazing when you start looking at different animal groups, how they behave, connive, plot and plan and we think us humans are the worst!! Animals are fabulous at showing us just how base instincts can run.


Very true and yes its fascinating! :001_smile:


----------



## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Simply hate to see good wine wasted :tongue_smilie:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> Simply hate to see good wine wasted :tongue_smilie:


Me too, so let's call by gones be by gones, the red wine was good, the night cap even better!



suzy93074 said:


> Very true and yes its fascinating! :001_smile:


I've always been interested in animals, right from being tiny, and was lucky enough to grow up in different countries. I've never lost that interest, and still push for education about all animals and am always glad to share my experiences and knowledge, albeit limited.


----------



## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

I fear my views on this subject may be slightly controversial and so if they offend anyone then I humbly apologise however, they are my views and should be respected just as I would respect anyone else's.

I have a friend who keeps and (used to) breed cocker spaniels. He told me recently that he had decided to become vegetarian as a direct result of the relationship he has with his dogs. He said that he had looked into one of his dogs eyes one day and seeing the comprehension and understanding in them, knew that it was wrong to kill animals for food. He then went on however, to get me to help him formulate a plan to move all of his current dogs over to a fully raw diet. He explained that he understood completely that his decision was a lifestyle choice and that it did not mean that it was in the best interest of the dogs.

Can you be an animal lover and still eat meat, absolutely I believe you can and there is no hypocrisy in it at all. What I do find hypocritical is for people to eat meat whilst not acknowledging what it is, meat is dead animal, and if you are going to eat it then you should at least have the decency to be honest with yourself about it. 

Equally hypocritical are people who don't eat meat but still enjoy the other benefits of animal products, leather, perfume etc. If you choose not to eat meat for ethical reasons then I do not believe there can be a middle ground.

I do eat meat, why, well because by my very nature I am an omnivore and that means that I need to eat both animal and plant matter to survive. Could I still eat meat if I had to catch it, kill it and cook it, yes I could. Sure it would be unpleasant but that is the price you pay. I do not pretend that an animal has not lost it's life to provide me with food, instead I am grateful for it.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> Simply hate to see good wine wasted :tongue_smilie:


Okay! Now I am totally confused.
I just don't get either of these statements.


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> I fear my views on this subject may be slightly controversial and so if they offend anyone then I humbly apologise however, they are my views and should be respected just as I would respect anyone else's.
> 
> I have a friend who keeps and (used to) breed cocker spaniels. He told me recently that he had decided to become vegetarian as a direct result of the relationship he has with his dogs. He said that he had looked into one of his dogs eyes one day and seeing the comprehension and understanding in them, knew that it was wrong to kill animals for food. He then went on however, to get me to help him formulate a plan to move all of his current dogs over to a fully raw diet. He explained that he understood completely that his decision was a lifestyle choice and that it did not mean that it was in the best interest of the dogs.
> 
> ...


Good post. I was vegetarian for years, but now do eat a little meat and I deal with it by trying to buy responsibly and not thinking too much about it 

Eventually I think I will cut back further and then stop again, we'll see.
If I had to kill the animal myself I could not eat it ... makes me think


----------



## smudgiesmummy (Nov 21, 2009)

Sacremist said:


> Okay! Now I am totally confused.
> I just don't get either of these statements.


just ignore these statements ,, someone likes to keep winding other members up


----------



## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

smudge2009 said:


> just ignore these statements ,, someone likes to keep winding other members up


It's like a kid poking the other in the back seat to get a fight started.

Totally immature..and just plain sad.


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> At least my animals don't bear the brunt of my temper ... unlike some.


Mine havent either tell you what though I can see why you probably spend most of your time with animals you have no social skills whatsoever


----------



## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

harley bear said:


> So we cant eat meat because it used to have a pulse, we cant eat any veg that came from a plant because we make it cry when its picked we cant eat fish.... what on earth can we eat and have a clear conscience?


*CHOCOLATE!!!
* :idea: :001_tt1: :thumbup: :yesnod:


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

I wonder if there are any vegetarians that also feed their dogs a veggie diet


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

C'mon guys (and gals), let's leave this as a debate, not a witch hunt, we have no witches here, just people who are passionate about their beliefs. I may not always agree with others, and they may not agree with me, but that makes it a great forum to express different view points.

Edited to add, no offence to any witches we may have here, suffering from foot in mouth tonight!


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> Good post. I was vegetarian for years, but now do eat a little meat and I deal with it by trying to buy responsibly and not thinking too much about it
> 
> Eventually I think I will cut back further and then stop again, we'll see.
> If I had to kill the animal myself I could not eat it ... makes me think


I too am an omnivore but I do eat vegetarian meals sometimes. Not for any moral or ethical reasons but simply because now and then I like them.

I love quorn burgers with salad on a bread roll and lots of other things. I just do not want to give up meat, poultry or fish completely because I love salmon and steak and chicken in a sauce.


----------



## smudgiesmummy (Nov 21, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> I wonder if there are any vegetarians that also feed their dogs a veggie diet


i did wonder that , but end of the day its up to them what they feed the dog


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

smudge2009 said:


> i did wonder that , but end of the day its up to them what they feed the dog


Of course it is


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> *CHOCOLATE!!!
> * :idea: :001_tt1: :thumbup: :yesnod:


Oh dear! Sorry to rain on your parade but.......:tongue_smilie:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm guessing the same someone has yet to actually post any evidence that hunting or *blood sports* as they call it, is any more cruel than the rearing of domestic animals for slaughter so we can eat them. And yet every post about animal cruelty they take part in has the same old theme, so I'm kind of used to it. Just breathe, and remember, we're all after the same goal, just different goal posts, animal welfare.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> C'mon guys (and gals), let's leave this as a debate, not a witch hunt,
> 
> Edited to add, no offence to any witches we may have here, suffering from foot in mouth tonight!


Yes, well, I was just about to take offense.....:tongue_smilie:


----------



## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

What annoys me is, these people that are "veggie" have probably eaten meat anyway

Their parents probably fed it to them, they probably ate it as teenagers then decided they were veggie.

So are contradicting themselves


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Kinjilabs said:


> What annoys me is, these people that are "veggie" have probably eaten meat anyway
> 
> Their parents probably fed it to them, they probably ate it as teenagers then decided they were veggie.
> 
> So are contradicting themselves


How are they contradicting themselves? All the people I know who are vegetarian made the decision to stop eating meat in their teens and early twenties ... they are aware they ate meat as children and don't hide the fact?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Sacremist said:


> Yes, well, I was just about to take offense.....:tongue_smilie:


Bum, I was sure I got that edit in quick enough!! Is the correct term witch, or should that be supernaturally enlightened??


----------



## smudgiesmummy (Nov 21, 2009)

Kinjilabs said:


> What annoys me is, these people that are "veggie" have probably eaten meat anyway
> 
> Their parents probably fed it to them, they probably ate it as teenagers then decided they were veggie.
> 
> So are contradicting themselves


a lot prob have unless , they were veggies bringing up children to eat vetatarian

one of my mates used to eat meat now shes vegan


----------



## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> How are they contradicting themselves? All the people I know who are vegetarian made the decision to stop eating meat in their teens and early twenties ... they are aware they ate meat as children and don't hide the fact?


Cos they ate meat in their teens and early twenties, so arent veggie


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Kinjilabs said:


> Cos they ate meat in their teens and early twenties, so arent veggie


Of course they are, you don't need to have abstained form meat from birth to call yourself a vegetarian


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Bum, I was sure I got that edit in quick enough!! Is the correct term witch, or should that be supernaturally enlightened??


Gifted will do! :tongue_smilie:


----------



## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

Sacremist said:


> Oh dear! Sorry to rain on your parade but.......:tongue_smilie:


Ahh I know what you are thinking, we can't eat chocolate because it comes from a plant that cries little dew drop tears when we kill it, but chocolate is made from the beans of the cocoa plant, so the plant is harvested but not killed. Therefore we do not kill the plant in order to eat our chocolate we just, erm, chop bits off it instead!!!

Didn't really think that one through did I?


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> Ahh I know what you are thinking, we can't eat chocolate because it comes from a plant that cries little dew drop tears when we kill it, but chocolate is made from the beans of the cocoa plant, so the plant is harvested but not killed. Therefore we do not kill the plant in order to eat our chocolate we just, erm, chop bits off it instead!!!
> 
> Didn't really think that one through did I?


Nope! And don't forget the milk! :tongue_smilie::tongue_smilie:


----------



## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> Of course they are, you don't need to have abstained form meat from birth to call yourself a vegetarian


Yes you do, if you've eaten meat you arent a vegetarian, you've eaten meat


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Kinjilabs said:


> Yes you do, if you've eaten meat you arent a vegetarian, you've eaten meat


:laugh: if that's what you choose to believe ...


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Plus, even if you harvest the fruit, nuts or seeds of a plant, it's like you are eating the foetus of the plant. :tongue_smilie:


----------



## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> Good post. I was vegetarian for years, but now do eat a little meat and I deal with it by trying to buy responsibly and not thinking too much about it
> 
> Eventually I think I will cut back further and then stop again, we'll see.
> If I had to kill the animal myself I could not eat it ... makes me think


I don't think you can have read my post properly. If you can justify eating meat by 'not thinking about it too much' then what does that make you? If you could not kill an animal before eating it but are happy for someone else to do it for you then what does that make you?


----------



## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> :laugh: if that's what you choose to believe ...


I dont choose to believe, its a fact, if anyone has eaten meat they arent vegetarian.

I could give up meat but couldnt say Im vegetarian, cos Ive eaten it for years


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> I don't think you can have read my post properly. If you can justify eating meat by 'not thinking about it too much' then what does that make you? If you could not kill an animal before eating it but are happy for someone else to do it for you then what does that make you?


No different from the majority of other people who meat.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

I think my hubby is cruel. When we visit the Lake District during lambing season, he shouts mint sauce at the new born lambs.:tongue_smilie:


----------



## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Bum, I was sure I got that edit in quick enough!! Is the correct term *witch*, or should that be supernaturally enlightened??


And here's me thinking all along that was a typo.


----------



## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

Kinjilabs said:


> I dont choose to believe, its a fact, if anyone has eaten meat they arent vegetarian.
> 
> I could give up meat but couldnt say Im vegetarian, cos Ive eaten it for years


What if they get baptized in the dust of the flour?

Would that absolve them from past meat eating meanness?


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Humans are not that great at properly digesting red meat..............too much can lead to bowel cancer.

Hmmmmm not that natural then 


The thought of eating dead flesh, muscle, veins etc EURGGGGHHHHHHH!!!


***No i am not a full 'veggie' either ***


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Acacia86 said:


> Humans are not that great at properly digesting red meat..............too much can lead to bowel cancer.


My friend is a Staff Nurse in theatre and she sees a lot of patients with bowel cancer, she doesn't eat red meat ... Seen what it can to do the bowels


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Acacia86 said:


> Humans are not that great at properly digesting red meat..............too much can lead to bowel cancer.
> 
> Hmmmmm not that natural then
> 
> ...


As I mentioned in an earlier post, my sister was veggie for years and she died of bowel cancer last year. Clearly being a veggie didn't do her much good.


----------



## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

Kinjilabs said:


> Yes you do, if you've eaten meat you arent a vegetarian, you've eaten meat


I am most sincerely sorry, but that is just ridiculous. There are two reasons why someone would eat a vegetarian diet, firstly due to some specific medical condition that would not allow them to digest animal products and secondly and far more widespread is because they have made a choice based on their ethical and moral perception of the issue.

If you choose not to eat animals because you believe it is wrong, then that is the commonly held definition of a vegetarian. But, seeing as nature has seen fit to design us as omnivore's, no one is born a vegetarian and so at some point or other in their life, has eaten meat. Being a vegetarian is a choice, not a predetermined fact.


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Sacremist said:


> As I mentioned in an earlier post, my sister was veggie for years and she died of bowel cancer last year. Clearly being a veggie didn't do her much good.


Sadly some people are genitically predisposed to it anyway, it probably would not have mattered what she had eaten. Sorry for your loss.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> My friend is a Staff Nurse in theatre and she sees a lot of patients with bowel cancer, she doesn't eat red meat ... Seen what it can to do the bowels


Then your friend needs to update her medical knowledge because all recent studies show that red meat DOES NOT cause cancer.

If you want to know what causes cancer do a bit of research on the Cancer UK website.


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Sacremist said:


> Then your friend needs to update her medical knowledge because all recent studies show that red meat DOES NOT cause cancer.
> 
> If you want to know what causes cancer do a bit of research on the Cancer UK website.


It has been strongly implicated, it is not the sole cause of bowel cancer as I have said it can be genetically programmed.

Some people will develop bowel cancer whatever they eat, it can run in families


----------



## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Is this on topic Im lost now.. is there a page where I can get a quick review?

I really don't think this is the place to be discussing Cancer.. It has affected many people.. And I guess many have thoughts on it..

The topic is.. for anyone who has forgotten....

*How can people say they are real animal lovers when they eat meat?*


----------



## kaz_f (Mar 8, 2009)

I haven't read it all I'm afraid. Look this is just my simplistic perspective and I fully accept that to some people my perspective is utterly wrong but in my brain I can't equate the two things together - liking and caring for something yet also wanting to kill and eat it. It's just a matter of personal choice to me and different things are acceptable to different people but that's ok - would be a dull old place if we were all the same.


----------



## CanIgoHome (Oct 25, 2008)

I'm a real animal lover 
love watching animals in fields
love eating the things too

but someone else has to kill then first


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

hawksport said:


> It's interesting that most would rather have their food killed by someone else.


It's also interesting that most people would rather have their elderly relatives cared for by someone else ... It's the society we live in. Gone are the days when everyone killed their own meat or took responsibility for their elders.

Both use to be commonplace not anymore


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> It's also interesting that most people would rather have their elderly relatives cared for by someone else ... It's the society we live in. Gone are the days when everyone killed their own meat or took responsibility for their elders.
> 
> Both use to be commonplace not anymore


What on earth have elderly relatives got to do with eating meat? NOTHING unless you suggest killing them to eat them PMSL
Also as were going way, way off topic it would be interesting to hear the views of the non meat eaters..... people dont buy leather eat fish or buy silk because of the way the animals are treated or in the silk worm case the way the eggs are treated when they havent even hatched..... WELLLLLLL i bet most are not against abortion and the like, a living being is killed.

Animals have always been killed for meat because they are lower in the food chain, if roles were reversed they would kill us if they had to eat.


----------



## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

What defines an animal lover anyway???

It's open to interpretation. What defines one persons idealistic view of an animal lover is totally different to another's.

If we want to be pedantic would an animal lover actually have pets?


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

harley bear said:


> What on earth have elderly relatives got to do with eating meat?


I was replying to Hawsport and commenting that few of us like to take responsibility for things that were once the norm


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> What defines an animal lover anyway???
> 
> It's open to interpretation. What defines one persons idealistic view of an animal lover is totally different to another's.
> 
> If we want to be pedantic would an animal lover actually have pets?


Mmmmmm that last line is very interesting.


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> Mmmmmm that last line is very interesting.


And PETA would have something to say on the matter I guess


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> And PETA would have something to say on the matter I guess


Ide like to hear their viewes on this though because cockerpoo has a point here, could have a opened a whole new can of worms here.


----------



## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

PETA believe in total animal Liberation and though they don't directly say no pets I think you will find that their stance is towards no pets.

However I have just found out via internet search ( not sure if facts are proven) that from July 98 to Dec 09 they PTS 23,000 dogs, cats and companion pets.


Shocking


----------



## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

I can quite easily say I am an animal lover. I care about how they are raised and cared for during their life. As far as eating meat is concerned, I get my meat from a local farmer, I know exactly where my meat comes from, and can vouch for the tastyness of gloucster old spot pigs. Far nicer than any general white pig that most supermarkets stock these days. 
Would I kill the animal myself, yes but only if I'd been shown the correct way to do this, I wouldnt do it "off cuff" so to speak as I know that I would be inflicting pain on the animal.



haeveymolly said:


> Ide like to hear their viewes on this though because cockerpoo has a point here, could have a opened a whole new can of worms here.


Peta do not believe in the keeping of pets at all, I remember reading (on here I think) about people leaving dogs and cats with peta believing that an organisation such as them would take care of them, they did, by having the pts. As they believe that no-one should keep animals, period. Please don't ask me to find the link, I have Grandmonster with me. I may get chance to look properly with no sidetracking at a later date i.e. after holidays. 
However I admit I'm going back at least a year, and maybe this information was maybe out of date then.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> What defines an animal lover anyway???
> 
> It's open to interpretation. What defines one persons idealistic view of an animal lover is totally different to another's.
> 
> If we want to be pedantic would an animal lover actually have pets?


This is a good point.


----------



## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Sacremist said:


> This is a good point.


It is a good point.. is it fair fr us to keep birds rodents etc in cages and tanks.. is it fair to keep a cat locked inside and the list could go on and on and on..


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

bird said:


> Peta do not believe in the keeping of pets at all, I remember reading (on here I think) about people leaving dogs and cats with peta believing that an organisation such as them would take care of them, they did, by having the pts. As they believe that no-one should keep animals, period. Please don't ask me to find the link, I have Grandmonster with me. I may get chance to look properly with no sidetracking at a later date i.e. after holidays.
> However I admit I'm going back at least a year, and maybe this information was maybe out of date then.


Interesting stuff! Clearly as a pet owner, I don't agree with them but interesting all the same.

Putting healthy animals to sleep, IMO, is pretty disgusting.


----------



## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Sacremist said:


> This is a good point.


Thank you 

But I was really just demonstrating that being labelled "animal Lover" is open to interpretation and whilst some may admonish others for eating meat or buying leather sofas others could easily be appalled at keeping animals as pets.

I think most would agree that cruelty is what we are against and what defines most of us as " animal lovers" is taking excellent care of our pets and hating cruelty and neglect of both domestic and wild animals.

Some may take it further by not eating meat and not buying products tested on animals etc..


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Thank you
> 
> But I was really just demonstrating that being labelled "animal Lover" is open to interpretation and whilst some may admonish others for eating meat or buying leather sofas others could easily be appalled at keeping animals as pets.
> 
> ...


Yes, I see what you mean. Just like debates on good and evil, sane and insane, the definition of an animal lover as opposed to animal cruelty is all relative.


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> It's also interesting that most people would rather have their elderly relatives cared for by someone else ... It's the society we live in. Gone are the days when everyone killed their own meat or took responsibility for their elders.
> 
> Both use to be commonplace not anymore


And this is a prime example of the "interpretation" of things.

Some people have no choice - doesnt mean they love their relatives any less .....just because its something one person wouldnt do doesnt mean its bad for others to do it...that is just your interpretation - same with animals just because we eat meat doesnt mean we dont care how that meat was reared/slaughtered and then sold to us as many on here have said - it doesnt mean we dont care about animals and our pets and it certainly doesnt mean we condone animal abuse.


----------



## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

momentofmadness said:


> If I had to kill chickens myself.. i wouldn't eat them.. or any other form of meat that may pass my lips.
> 
> The fact I buy chicken breast skinned and boned and I am telling myself it something else.. goes a long way for me to eat it..
> 
> If I had to go out into the garden and choose a chuck.. I would have a garden full of chucks..


actually, you probably would as you would be use to it.

if this was how things were done (and not mass produced etc) then you would have been seeing this since you were born and doing it since you were physically capable (or deemed safe to) you wouldn't have the same aversion to doing it as you do now because you equate it with gore and other unpleasantaries.

as to the original question. i DO love animals...i also love them alive and i love them on my plate keeping me healthy.

op you should ask said incredulous mate, do they love nature? if so how can they justify eating products that are mass produced and therefore to the detriment of the surrounding countryside and animals (i.e. the forests then hedgerows that were decimated to make way for large-scale production), the environmental cost of said production for plant based matter alone far outweighs those of meat production, in any country. Plus the side-effects of the pesticides used to keep them 'healthy'.

might also want to remind said unenlighted person that plants have feelings too, they are chopped down without a bit of humane treatment, fore-thought or ceremony. You eat seeds and berries you're eating plant-babies.



swings and roundabouts. if we didn't eat what we needed we'd be dead.... so pointless argument no matter which side you're on, unless you're a cannibal then the point is somewhat moot as you then only have to worry about what the person you're eating is eating.

you can love flora and fauna but the fact of the matter is we need to eat something, so eating what you can 'stomach' seems to be the best philosopy to live by.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

suzy93074 said:


> And this is a prime example of the "interpretation" of things.
> 
> Some people have no choice - doesnt mean they love their relatives any less .....just because its something one person wouldnt do doesnt mean its bad for others to do it...that is just your interpretation - same with animals just because we eat meat doesnt mean we dont care how that meat was reared/slaughtered and then sold to us as many on here have said - it doesnt mean we dont care about animals and our pets and it certainly doesnt mean we condone animal abuse.


Not just wouldn't do but in many cases CAN'T do. Just as some people have said they can't kill their own food. We are all different. It doesn't make one person better than another just because one person's limitations are different to someone else's.


----------



## Dazadal (Nov 4, 2010)

I would consider myself an animal lover but I do eat meat and wear leather and I own a leather sofa. I would love to become vegetarian and have tried on a few occasions and failed.  
If all animals were cared for humanely then it wouldnt be such a problem to me but Battery Chickens, Pigs teathered in pens and the intensive farming methods bought about by super low priced foods in UK supermarkets are the cause of intensive animal production.  
I often think if you can buy two chickens for £5 how were they reared? I'm lucky enough to be able to afford to buy free range. If I had kids and was on a budget what choices do some people have? Cheap chicken or no chicken?


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Sacremist said:


> Not just wouldn't do but in many cases CAN'T do. Just as some people have said they can't kill their own food. We are all different. It doesn't make one person better than another just because one person's limitations are different to someone else's.


Very true!


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Dazadal said:


> I would consider myself an animal lover but I do eat meat and wear leather and I own a leather sofa. I would love to become vegetarian and have tried on a few occasions and failed.
> If all animals were cared for humanely then it wouldnt be such a problem to me but Battery Chickens, Pigs teathered in pens and the intensive farming methods bought about by super low priced foods in UK supermarkets are the cause of intensive animal production.
> I often think if you can buy two chickens for £5 how were they reared? I'm lucky enough to be able to afford to buy free range. If I had kids and was on a budget what choices do some people have? Cheap chicken or no chicken?


I'm not vegetarian, but my sister was for years so I've picked up a few good recipes. I would recommend you thoroughly research the nutritional aspects of it before embarking on that path. Maybe take it one step at a time by researching some recipes and trying them. Just substitute a few meals a week. We all need to eat a very varied diet but this is even more important for a veggie because the nutrition available to meat eaters, whilst still available in other forms to veggies, you need to make sure you include those things which contain things like iron and omega 3 in your diet every single day.

Omega 3 and iron deficiencies are common problems in veggies who are not careful about eating a well balanced diet. For example, a meat eater needs to eat only one small portion of red meat per week to get all the iron they need for that week; a veggie must eat quite a large portion of something like spinach every day.


----------



## Guest (Apr 11, 2011)

OMG!! WTF!!! 

We have gone from eating meat to "not caring about our elderly relatives"!!! 

Please can a mod sort this out, i will not be replying anymore on this thread and giving "someone" the satisfaction of winding "us" all up.


----------



## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

KathrynH said:


> OMG!! WTF!!!
> 
> We have gone from eating meat to "not caring about our elderly relatives"!!!
> 
> Please can a mod sort this out, i will not be replying anymore on this thread and giving "someone" the satisfaction of winding "us" all up.


lmao, i've not read the whole thread cos its too long and i'm at work. but that's hilarious! someone's actually posted something about oldies? are they comparing them to animals? omg that's made my day. i'll have to back read when i get home to get the full amusement factor.


----------



## astraldream (Apr 3, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> Human beings have been given teeth which are designed for tearing up meat and masticating our food. If we were not intended to be meat eaters, we would not have the teeth to eat it.
> 
> Plus, eating meat gives us some essential minerals etc which cannot be easily obtained from vegetables unless we eat those vegetables in huge quantities daily. Many vegetarians eat a diet poor in all the essential nutrients people need and as a consequence can become anaemic due in particular, to a shortage of iron.
> 
> ...


ahh yes we were given teeth to tear up meat, but we have also evolved since then, we now stand upright, we shop at saisburys and we have invented ways to fly across the globe. 
So we can certainly SURVIVE without eating meat, that argument is outdated as we have many supplements.

HOWEVER...I do think that without people eating meat certain species will become extinct. Who in reality has the space or money to rear sheep, cows because we like them and want to stroke them?

I am a vegetarian, and an animal lover. I have no issue with anyone else eating meat, my dogs are BARF fed and i dont ming cooking meat for my partner. I just dont wish to eat it myself.

As long as the animals are reared and looked after well, and killed in a humane way i dont see a problem with eating meat if thats what you wish to do!


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

astraldream said:


> ahh yes we were given teeth to tear up meat, but we have also evolved since then, we now stand upright, we shop at saisburys and we have invented ways to fly across the globe.
> So we can certainly SURVIVE without eating meat, that argument is outdated as we have many supplements.
> 
> HOWEVER...I do think that without people eating meat certain species will become extinct. Who in reality has the space or money to rear sheep, cows because we like them and want to stroke them?
> ...


As I posted in an earlier post, supplements are exactly that supplements and not substitutes. If you do some research you will find that the human body cannot easily digest artificial nutrients as well as it can natural nutrients so it is much better to make sure you eat a natural diet rich in all the nutrients rather than simply relying on a supplement which is not a sensible path to take.

Here is part of what I wrote earlier:

'Plus, vitamin or mineral supplements arent a substitute for a balanced, nutritious diet. Simply put, a vitamin supplement is considered a supplement, not a replacement for food. The best vitamins and minerals are natural vitamins and minerals and not the synthetic type which you find in many supplements because natural vitamins and minerals are more easily absorbed by the body. So if you are going to choose a supplement, you have to pay for a good quality natural product. Unfortunately, some of these natural products, a vegetarian cannot take because it would be against their principles.

Also there are so many different types of supplement out there and not all of them match the correct RDA levels required by the human body, so how does a vegetarian know if they are using the correct one? Many supplements on the market today exceed many times the RDA levels. The excess can lead you to consume mega doses of vitamins and can result in high levels of the fat soluble vitamins (vitamins A, D, E, K) being stored in your body, which is toxic.'

Like I said, do some research.


----------



## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

astral, half valid argument, while we have evolved, our meat eating ways are why we are able to fly across the earth and up to the moon. without that all important decision to eat fish, we would still be scraping in the dust trying to figure out how to make our stone tools more economical.. although we wouldn't be using that word cos we would probably not be past speaking in grunts.

our teeth have evolved slightly past how we were when we were living in caves, but our guts haven't evolved enough to deal with a fully vegetarian diet PROPERLY yet, you need merely to look at the enzymes our bodies create to break down food to see how badly we are designed for lots of plant based foods. 

we can do it but we need to eat vast amounts of plant foods that hold the EAA's/minerals etc as our guts (the most important part of our bodies when it comes to food not our teeth) can't digest the matter properly to absorb the amounts we need in low quantities. Our guts are quite simply designed to be omnivores, our teeth allow us to eat all sorts, but our guts are the key players.

THAT is why anaemia and other deficencies are prevailant in vegetarians, it is also why some will HAVE to take meat sourced supplemental pills to ensure they keep healthy. some people lack the ability to make enough of the right enzymes to be a healthy vegetarian, without eating some form of meat or meat based supplement. 

we are only just being able to get what we need from plants (technology is behind our ideals as always) to reduce the amount of animal supplements we need and use plant based ones instead.

however, this as i mentioned before brings other problems with it.

think how much meat you eat.. a small amount once maybe twice a day (which is more than you need btw), compare that to the amount of grain/veg/fruit based food you eat. how much more space grain farming takes up, the ecological damage the farming itself does, the pesticidal chemicals, the extras involved, the processing into millions of different food stuffs, supplements, transport, haulage, the processing chemicals, the haulage, the packaging, the haulage, all to get to your gut for it to process it in vast quantities to get what meat/dairy gives you in one bite. 

grain food creates, far more 'problems' than the amount of cattle we have in britain alone, let alone other countries, where some of our grain foods are 'reared'.

evolution is great, but it's slow and not always ecologically/mentally or physically a good idea. However.. keeping in mind that it's not only animals that evolve, the earth does too... britain has changed it's landscape many a time and is ever evolving.


----------



## astraldream (Apr 3, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> As I posted in an earlier post, supplements are exactly that supplements and not substitutes. If you do some research you will find that the human body cannot easily digest artificial nutrients as well as it can natural nutrients so it is much better to make sure you eat a natural diet rich in all the nutrients rather than simply relying on a supplement which is not a sensible path to take.
> 
> Here is part of what I wrote earlier:
> 
> ...


I have been a vegetarian for 21 years half my life so i have done plenty of research! :001_smile:
Whilst i agree with what you say that supplements are exactly that a SUPPLEMENT as a vegetarian you can have a full and varied diet and get the correct nutrients.
Like i mentioned earlier i have no issue with others eating meat i just dont wish to eat it myself. What i have found though in general when i tell someone i dont eat meat, they seem to get defensive, and come at me with attacking statements such as "well do you have leather shoes" "i bet you have a leather couch" " we were made to eat meat" etc... 
Again we have evolved and we CAN survive and quite healthily too without meat. Although i am aware some people just cant do it as they become to anaemic, wether this is because as everyone is different they just cant manage or because they arent eating a full variety of foods i dont know. Probably both thinking about it.

Again, getting back to the topic subject. Yes you can be an anumal lover and eat meat. Just as you can be a vegetarian and hate animals the two dont always go hand in hand


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

astraldream said:


> I have been a vegetarian for 21 years half my life so i have done plenty of research! :001_smile:
> Whilst i agree with what you say that supplements are exactly that a SUPPLEMENT as a vegetarian you can have a full and varied diet and get the correct nutrients.


But isn't this exactly what I said in the post you questioned that in order to be a vegetarian you have to ensure you eat the correct natural products and in sufficient quantities to make sure you receive a well-balanced diet?

No matter which way you look at it, meat eaters receive nutrition from animal flesh and animal products, that vegetarians do not get unless they eat the right type of veggies. The facts I stated about meat and iron were told to me by my dietician. I was informed about this because I did once try going veggie but it just wasn't for me. My dietician was helping me to make the right choices.

There's no point feeling miffed about the facts because facts are just that facts and if you have researched, you should know that many people who embark on a vegetarian diet, do so in a very haphazard and uninformed way which is the reason why they end up malnourished.


----------



## astraldream (Apr 3, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> But isn't this exactly what I said in the post you questioned that in order to be a vegetarian you have to ensure you eat the correct natural products and in sufficient quantities to make sure you receive a well-balanced diet?
> 
> No matter which way you look at it, meat eaters receive nutrition from animal flesh and animal products, that vegetarians do not get unless they eat the right type of veggies. The facts I stated about meat and iron were told to me by my dietician. I was informed about this because I did once try going veggie but it just wasn't for me. My dietician was helping me to make the right choices.
> 
> There's no point feeling miffed about the facts because facts are just that facts and if you have researched, you should know that many people who embark on a vegetarian diet, *do so in a very haphazard and uninformed way which is the reason why they end up malnourished*.


My point exactly. If it is done correctly you can live a completely healthy lifestyle.
It goes both ways really, not everyone is a proffessional and understand the exact quantities you should be eating on a daily basis but a certain amount of education of the types of food your eating goes a long way.
Even meat eaters dont always get the required amount of vitamins and minerals as they dont eat the right type of food.

Although...this has nothing to do with the thread title. so apologies.:tongue_smilie:


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

yes you can be an animal lover and eat meat, i know i was when i ate it, but i would hope that those who do eat it care enough to ensure they only buy high welfare farmed meat, we live on a tight budget and my oh and kids eat some meats so i have to buy it, altho its costs more i dont think its out of reach for most people...infact anybody really:tongue_smilie: it might mean cutting back on other things but at least you'll know the animal youre eating wont have suffered such a miserable life.


----------



## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

i wasn't have a go personally astral, just using you as a jumping point (i do that alot, not actually just talking to you but everyone who's read this far), just clarifying that people possibly don't know WHY they are having problems being a vegetarian (or other dietary contributing factor to their ill health, meat can cause as many problems for some).. people look at the food as the problem and not their own bodies. the problem is some people don't research their diet AT ALL, no matter which foods they eat. they know what they are sticking in their mouths but have no clue what it does or doesn't do for them, or how it affects the environment on a GLOBAL scale.

as you said we CAN survive on just plants, but due to todays tech, we can also just survive on just meat, or just fruit, or just seeds.

but as i mentioned above, i'm afraid that SOME people CAN'T suvive without meat (or other foods depending on genetic deficiencies), some people just don't have the ability to make all the right enzymes and even with 'help' or supplements it's not good enough. No-one should have to supplement their food with artificial supplements. they should be able to get what they need from their diet. 

the truth of the matter is WE ARE made to eat meat, we have EVOLVED to eat it ALONG SIDE plant matter, our gut, the enzymes we produce and some of our teeth are geared towards doing just that. if you use animals as our equivalents, we don't have long enough intestines to deal with too much meat but on the other hand our caecums are far too small to deal with just plant matter, or we don't have enough stomachs, so we're not cat's, horses or ruminants, we are omnivores like some bears, skunks etc. designed to eat all. 

yes we can survive on just plants, but we haven't evolved enough to eat just that. and i doubt we ever fully will, too many of us don't want to for a start. 

it's a lifestyle choice as you say, some of us will never want to stop eating meat and why should we?
i've been a meat eater for 33 odd years (assuming i didn't eat any for the first 6 to 12 months), i know what i eat, where it comes from and what it does. i also know what not to eat and why, and not merely cos i don't like the taste but also because how it affects the animals i love, no matter how ugly (ragworms for instance, cute wee critters that they are).


----------



## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Is it worth starting a new thread?

On pro' and con's of eating meat or being a vegetarian 


My thoughts re the thread I stated earlier.. I love animals.. I do eat a bit of meat.. and I would not eat any meat if I had to kill it..


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

momentofmadness said:


> Is it worth starting a new thread?
> 
> On pro' and con's of eating meat or being a vegetarian
> 
> My thoughts re the thread I stated earlier.. I love animals.. I do eat a bit of meat.. and I would not eat any meat if I had to kill it..


I hadn't seen the thread, I will look for it.


----------



## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

momentofmadness said:


> Is it worth starting a new thread?
> 
> On pro' and con's of eating meat or being a vegetarian
> 
> My thoughts re the thread I stated earlier.. I love animals.. I do eat a bit of meat.. and I would not eat any meat if I had to kill it..


we've done it before. just going over old ground with new folk really.

it's part of the debate though as to whether animal lovers are able to be meat eaters if we include the full scope of the arguments that are used by both sides to justify either.


----------



## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Sacremist said:


> I hadn't seen the thread, I will look for it.


Nope you possibly wont find it.. :lol: Im not starting it.. :lol:

Im just saying cause its going right off the matter in hand again..


----------



## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

owieprone said:


> we've done it before. just going over old ground with new folk really.
> 
> it's part of the debate though as to whether animal lovers are able to be meat eaters if we include the full scope of the arguments that are used by both sides to justify either.


Well Im confused as to what taking vitamins has to do with loving animals when your talking about whether they are healthy..

I dont mean just you. But everyone that has got into it. 

Also even though its been gone over before doesn't stop it starting again.. I have lost count of how many fox hunting threads there have been..


----------



## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

momentofmadness said:


> Well Im confused as to what taking vitamins has to do with loving animals when your talking about whether they are healthy..
> 
> I dont mean just you. But everyone that has got into it.
> 
> Also even though its been gone over before doesn't stop it starting again.. I have lost count of how many fox hunting threads there have been..


whether the animals are healthy or the supplements?

if i get your gist: what you mean is what the title says, without exploring why people eat meat how can you tell some that they aren't an animal love jsut simply because they eat them? how can you be a nature lover if you eat anything? everythign is connected, we are a top tropic land animal, top of the food chain, which is both good and bad. but it has consequences no matter WHAT you eat. just because you are eating plants doesn't mean it's a healthy diet, some crops from other countries have tons of pesticides in them, some meat (including seafood) is riddled with chemicals because of what WE put in the sea. nothing is without consequence.

what i'm basically saying is we have to eat, what we eat is up to us, i can't force my meat eating habits on anyone but i think EVERYONE should know what amounts they should eat of each thing and WHERE it comes from.... the consequences of every human diet is far reaching. we can't preach veganism or meat eating as the best diet for everyone cos genetics (brought about by evolution) will show us it's not.

pill supplements are now much better than they used to be but they still aren't the answer. correct control of your diet is the answer, whether you eat meat or not.

if you don't eat meat, then you have to remember that you too are contributing to the death of animals everywhere just as inhumane as cattle in slaughter houses, the only difference being they are rarely seen or talked about.. large scale farming sees to that.

no-one gets a high horse in this debate, no one wins, no one is right or wrong in the global scale of things.. merely in their own bodies.


----------



## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Right just to lightened this thread 

The OP asked " How can people say they are real animal lovers if they eat meat?"

Well if you are munching on a nice fat steak and loving it does that count? 

or when you say " I would love a bacon sandwich" 

Come on I bet your reading this and trying not to smile


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

momentofmadness said:


> Well Im confused as to what taking vitamins has to do with loving animals when your talking about whether they are healthy..
> 
> I dont mean just you. But everyone that has got into it.
> 
> Also even though its been gone over before doesn't stop it starting again.. I have lost count of how many fox hunting threads there have been..


I do see your point, however, I agree with Owieprone. I don't see how we can debate this without introducing some of the wider issues. For the most part, I think this has been a sensible debate and so long as we are still discussing why people choose to be veggies rather than meat eaters then discussing it here should be fine. After all, people become veggies for lots of reasons but the most predominant reason is their love of animals so the two really go hand in hand. Without discussing the wider issues, the debate would spiral into a tit-for-tat, 'I'm still an animal lover though I eat meat' and a 'no, you are not because you eat meat,' which will be, IMO, boring, pointless and result possible sniping at each other.

What I don't agree with is people bringing up sensitive issues such as cancer and older people. These have no place on this thread.


----------



## Guest (Apr 11, 2011)

Out of interest i was just wondering how many vegetarian animal lovers feed their dogs/cats meat???
Because correct me if i'm wrong but wouldnt that be a little hypocritical???
:nono:


----------



## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

wiley80 said:


> Out of interest i was just wondering how many vegetarian animal lovers feed there dogs/cats meat???
> Because correct me if i'm wrong but wouldnt that be a little hypocritical???
> :nono:


no.

they ARE carnivores. to feed them something else would be dangerous to their health.

regardless of what humans are supposed to eat, we SHOULD NEVER try and make other animals eat what they are not designed for.

even vegans would understand this, it is natural for cats and dogs to eat meat, it is not natural for them to eat them out of tins right enough buthtere are ways around that (that don't cost the earth) abit of planning is all it takes to make sure pets eat a healthy diet that doesn't need to include overdue cruelty to the feed animal.


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

wiley80 said:


> Out of interest i was just wondering how many vegetarian animal lovers feed their dogs/cats meat???
> Because correct me if i'm wrong but wouldnt that be a little hypocritical???
> :nono:


I would also like to know if anyone has actually answered the original question. So can they? or are they?


----------



## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> I would also like to know if anyone has actually answered the original question. So can they? or are they?


it's subjective, it can never be answered as it depends on the persons point of view. the whole point of the thread (OP correct if wrong) is to debate and educate.

thought i'm sure if i had a stab at it, the answer would be 43.


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

owieprone said:


> it's subjective, it can never be answered as it depends on the persons point of view. the whole point of the thread (OP correct if wrong) is to debate and educate.
> 
> thought i'm sure if i had a stab at it, the answer would be 43.


Yes agree and a good debate just wondered if anyone has actually put across their point of view and actuall said NO they cant be real animal lovers.


----------



## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> Yes agree and a good debate just wondered if anyone has actually put across their point of view and actuall said NO they cant be real animal lovers.


Im afraid we are selfish humans.. so how are we going to do that.. I really wouldn't eat meat if you were stood with me telling me that is a chuck.. I have said this previously..


----------



## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> Yes agree and a good debate just wondered if anyone has actually put across their point of view and actuall said NO they cant be real animal lovers.


i've not managed to read the whole thread so dunno, they don't seem to have or if they have they've changed their minds or shut up.


----------



## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

owieprone said:


> i've not managed to read the whole thread so dunno, they don't seem to have or if they have they've changed their minds or shut up.


Define Love..


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

owieprone said:


> no.
> 
> they ARE carnivores. to feed them something else would be dangerous to their health.
> 
> ...


This has reminded me of someone from a few years back, on one of my other animal groups, who wrote to the group to say she was becoming a vegetarian and was going to feed her cat a vegetarian diet too. Everyone was horrified and needless to say, she was severely reprimanded. :tongue_smilie:

My point here is that sometimes some people embark upon a path which has not been properly researched or understood and make grave mistakes in the process all in the name of their love of animals. I have no doubt, the person I refer to from my other group, had the best of intentions and really did love animals, but in her naivety and some would say stupidity, was going to endanger the life of her cat. Unfortunately, some people endanger their own health and lives due to messing with their diet and not researching it thoroughly enough.


----------



## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

momentofmadness said:


> Define Love..


An intense feeling of deep affection:


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> I would also like to know if anyone has actually answered the original question. So can they? or are they?


It has been answered, I believe, someone pointed out that in the view of PETA members, keeping pets could be considered cruel, just as some vegetarians consider the breeding, killing and eating of meat is cruel, therefore, each person's view is personal. No one is right and no one is wrong, it is all relative, depending on which side of the fence you stand. Whether or not you can eat meat and be an animal lover at the same time depends on each individual perspective. It is an impossible question to answer in truth.


----------



## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Sacremist said:


> This has reminded me of someone from a few years back, on one of my other animal groups, who wrote to the group to say she was becoming a vegetarian and was going to feed her cat a vegetarian diet too. Everyone was horrified and needless to say, she was severely reprimanded. :tongue_smilie:
> 
> My point here is that sometimes some people embark upon a path which has not been properly researched or understood and make grave mistakes in the process all in the name of their love of animals. I have no doubt, the person I refer to from my other group, had the best of intentions and really did love animals, but in her naivety and some would say stupidity, was going to endanger the life of her cat. Unfortunately, some people endanger their own health and lives due to messing with their diet and not researching it thoroughly enough.


aye, as astral was saying earlier, and i concurred you really do need to read into not just diet but our own workings in order to understand how to do the diet thing properly. regardless of what you are trying to achieve: a better karma, a slimmer waist, bigger muscles.. without knowning what you need you can't know what to eat.

i think a few folk onhere have mentioned making their cats/dogs/grandmas vegetarian, they were quickly rebuffed, if i remember correctly.

i dunno how anyone does ANYTHING without researching first.

momentofmadness: what you on about? you've confuzzled me. :nono: naughtynaughty my brain is far too small for subtlety (you must have noticed that by now!  lmao)


----------



## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

owieprone said:


> aye, as astral was saying earlier, and i concurred you really do need to read into not just diet but our own workings in order to understand how to do the diet thing properly. regardless of what you are trying to achieve: a better karma, a slimmer waist, bigger muscles.. without knowning what you need you can't know what to eat.
> 
> i think a few folk onhere have mentioned making their cats/dogs/grandmas vegetarian, they were quickly rebuffed, if i remember correctly.
> 
> ...


Ive gone back to the original question.. how do we as humans .....How can people say they are real animal lovers when they eat meat? Well firstly we as a human have to define the meaning of love.. animal lover.. and we can go from their as the word love and animal lover means slightly different things to each..  So then we can question what love means to us and if it makes it alright in our own mind if we can eat it.. Im a coward have said I couldn't kill it. But just cause I caneat it.. doesn't mean Id go and stab a chicken.. Im not an animal hater.. I like to think I love/care for most animals..  Its not cause I dont care that I eat meat it was cause my parents tried to make me.. I ate veg for quite some time till some one convinced me to try chicken.. 
So I do love animals I dont like/love to think of them getting hurt.. I dont even squish iddy biddy spiders.. so am I a real animal lover.. Or Iam i extremely passionate about the well fare of all animals... 
Does it make sense now or have I got severe sunburn and it is making me waffle bubbles.. :lol:


----------



## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

aaah haaaa!! i see. I shall add.

i'm the same with 'house'spiders, i HATES THEM!!! but have to get OH to kill them so I don't feel guilty lmao. he LOVES kiling them. but i like outside spiders, cos they're outside and not trying to swim in my belly or bite me.

i hate wasps but again can't kill them.. but in this case it's in case the ressurect themselves zombie style and come after me..:blink: eek!

i love animals (most of them), but it comes in several forms.. i love to see them floating about the shop (i don't mean the butchers, i mean as per aberdonian slang), i love knowing are just there, and i love to eat some and use them for nourishment (milk etc), there are ones i hate and would happily live without (see above) but know that other animals use them as food (birds etc) so i don't wish them extinct.

i love animals enough to know that when i eat them they should be as happy as possible in this life as they are in the next or heaven or whatever it is you [readers] believe in. they should be well kept, fed, watered and slaughtered as i would hope to be should i come back as someone's dinner (be warned i'll give you almight gas when i do, just cos i can).

i love animals roaming free on my plate in a bath of gravy (or whatever condiment i'm using at the time).

i love animals in my belly.

that doesn't mean i don't love animals in their natural habitat.. cos without that i wouldn't be able to love them in my belly now would i?

that is my understanding of things, put simply.. field.. belly... fertilizer.


----------



## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

owieprone said:


> aaah haaaa!! i see. I shall add.
> 
> i'm the same with 'house'spiders, i HATES THEM!!! but have to get OH to kill them so I don't feel guilty lmao. he LOVES kiling them. but i like outside spiders, cos they're outside and not trying to swim in my belly or bite me.
> 
> ...


I liked that for your humour....

And Oh my lordies.. :lol:


----------



## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I love my animals, respect others animals and enjoy eating meat. I don't find it hard to understand.


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

canuckjill said:


> I love my animals, respect others animals and enjoy eating meat. I don't find it hard to understand.


Thats the straight,quick and easy answer ive trawled nearly 33 pages to find 
Me the same.


----------



## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> Thats the straight,quick and easy answer ive trawled nearly 33 pages to find
> Me the same.


ROFL.. Some people can just answer.. :lol:


----------



## kaz_f (Mar 8, 2009)

It's a difficult one to answer as it's very subjective. It depends on lots of things, what you define as love, how you view animals and how (and whether) you separate animals out - as pets, as food etc, and not least what is acceptable to you personally. 

When I was a kid my grandpa was a gamekeeper and I asked him why it was ok to eat some pheasants yet he kept some other ornamental pheasants that didn't get eaten. He said to me that it was ok because some were 'eating pheasants' and some were 'looking at pheasants'. I accepted it at that young age as I could separate the two out in my mind. As I grew up I came to realise that actually I wasn't going to make that distinction at all as I didn't think it was acceptable to eat any pheasants - pretty or otherwise but I remember that conversation so well and it makes me smile whenever I recall it  I think it's something we do as humans, we separate things out according to what's acceptable to us personally and also what's most convenient. 

I don't think there's an overall right or wrong it's just what's right and what's wrong to you if that makes any sense! It's a personal thing really.

Right I'm getting off this fence now as it's darned uncomfortable...


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Okay, I'll say it, I AM A REAL ANIMAL LOVER AND YES I DO EAT MEAT. There I've said it, easy. I didn't find that difficult at all. I feel so much better now. :tongue_smilie:


----------



## angelblue (Aug 4, 2009)

*unless you're a cannibal then the point is somewhat moot as you then only have to worry about what the person you're eating is eating.*

ha ha that was a classic

but to confirm:

HUMAN TEETH WERE NOT DESIGNED TO EAT MEAT

the jaw action is wrong, the canines are way too small, the gut is too long, the enzymes in our stomach are not powerful enough................

we need to cook / treat meat in some way

ancestors ate fish, sea food such as molluscs clinging to rocks and in tidal pools.

how we came to eat meat who knows, maybe the advent of fire???

we certainly dont NEED it.

but i do enjoy it.


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

sacremist said:


> okay, i'll say it, i am a real animal lover and yes i do eat meat. There i've said it, easy. I didn't find that difficult at all. I feel so much better now. :tongue_smilie:


yaaayyyy:d:d:d:d:d


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Just some info I've found that might be of interest:

'Humans evolved beyond their vegetarian roots and became meat-eaters at the dawn of the genus ****, around 2.5 million years ago, according to a study of our ancestors' teeth.

In 1999, researchers found cut marks on animal bones dated at around 2.5 million years old. But no one could be sure that they were made by meat-eating hominids, because none appeared to have suitable teeth.

Now an analysis by Peter Ungar of the University of Arkansas has revealed that the first members of **** had much sharper teeth than their most likely immediate ancestor, Australopithecus afarensis, the species that produced the famous fossil Lucy.

Eating meat requires teeth adapted more to cutting than to grinding. The ability to cut is determined by the slope of the cusps, or crests. "Steeper crests mean the ability to consume tougher foods," Ungar says. He has found that the crests of teeth from early **** skeletons are steeper than those of gorillas, which consume foods as tough as leaves and stems, but not meat.

*Ripe fruit*

But the crests of teeth from A. afarensis are not only shallower than those of early ****, they are also shallower than those of chimpanzees, which consume mostly soft foods such as ripe fruit, and almost no meat.

"Ungar shows that early **** had teeth adapted to tougher food than A. afarensis or [chimpanzees]. The obvious candidate is meat," says anthropologist Richard Wrangham of Harvard University.

Ungar used a laser to scan each tooth and mapped the surface as though it were a landscape, using a geographic information system, he told a symposium on diet and evolution at the University of Arkansas in August.

He had to find a way to compare teeth already worn by use, because unworn teeth are extremely rare in fossils. In a previous study on the teeth of gorillas and chimps, he validated the technique by showing that the differences between species' teeth remain constant however much they are worn down (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, vol 100, p 3874).'

Also:

'Tool-use no doubt helped early humans in butchering their dinners. But there is evidence that the advance to cooking and using knives and forks is leading to crooked teeth and facial dwarfing in humans.

Today it's relatively rare for someone to have perfectly straight teeth (without having been to the orthodontist). Our wisdom teeth don't have room to fit in the jaw and sometimes don't form at all, and the propensity to develop gum disease is on the increase.

"Virtually any mammalian jaw in the wild that you look at will be a perfect occlusiona very nice Hollywood-style dentition," said Peter Lucas, the author of Dental Functional Morphology and a visiting professor at George Washington University in Washington, D.C. "But when it comes to humans, the ideal occlusion [the way teeth fit together] is virtually never seen. It's really the only body part that regularly needs attention and surgery."

Lucas argues that the mechanical process of chewing, combined with the physical properties of foods in the diet, will drive tooth, jaw, and body size, particularly in human evolution.

Essentially, by cooking our food, thereby making it softer, we no longer need teeth big enough to chow down on really tough particles. By using knives and forks to cut food into smaller pieces, we no longer need a large enough jaw to cram in big hunks of food.

"We're evolving to eat mush,"'


----------



## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

angelblue,

errr sort of, we were eating meat before fire, there is archeological evidence. We were eating raw fish and other seafoods, and eggs (while technically not meat, no doubt led to the thought of eating the layer).

we are omnivores therefore have the teeth designed to deal with all the foods we eat, the front flat teeth to slice through fruit/soft skin, incisors orginally to tear flesh and molars to grind everything. (however some herbivores have incisors, pandas for instance). We and other **** species have had omnivorous teeth since the dawn of time.

we also don't have jaws/skulls designed for eating just vegetables, we cannot grind left to right in an obvious fashion (such as ruminants). We don't have the right balance of enzymes to break down and absorb the correct amounts of nutrients from plant matter that other vegetarian animals do, or the same intestinal tract structure.

We're not designed for just meat either, if we were our teeth would be far more like a cats, for instance.

our evolution hasn't been entirely focussed on what we eat, although diet has been a contributary factor in how we have developed, WHAT we developed because of that isn't the same thing. Our jaws have become smaller because we figured out how to cook our food so didn't need the same jaw assembly as before, or learned to deal with it better so less powerful jaws were needed, our teeth may have changes slightly as we changed how we ate, but the main change was the rest of our skeleton, our skulls changed shape dramatically to better house our new brain power gained from the meat we were eating for instance. but remember that socio-functions would have changd also. so we may have started eating meat, but i doubt very much that we ate it as much as we do now.. our ancestors couldn't very well pop down the local for a kebab.. they had to chase after the kebab with their own stick first. it wouldn't have been a daily dietary inclusion for a LONG time. so the incisors we had were primary either for posturing (chimps) and/or for the plants we ate, or if you think back far enough for the original food our original ancestor ate.

again TEETH ARE NOT the best argument for saying we are supposed to vegetarians.

teeth

and if you don't believe me: 
Humans are Omnivores -- The Vegetarian Resource Group

as for intestines, look at the links, they (and medical journals and doctors and eminant professors etc etc) show that we are exactly like the rest of the omnivores, we are built to get the most nutrients the quickest way possible and then crap out the rest. we're not like rabbits who have to eat their poo again to get all the nutrients from their original meal, but we're not like carnivores who can digest really quickly, or like herbivores that need super long periods of time to digest the first bite. We are omnivores, designed to break down the food relatively quickly, get what we need and dump the rest as it's TOO HARD to get, to get it we would have to specialise like the other 2 options have evolved to.

So back to the original question, just because i eat what i'm designed to, doesn't mean i don't love animals.


----------



## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

All I can say on the original post/topic of thread is....

I love animals, they taste great  especially lambs with a bit of mint sauce.


so long as animals are raised properly and killed humanley, I am happy to keep eating them.

I have seen various slaughter programmes on the subject and from what I see, these animals don`t know anything intil they are dead.... the worst part being the twitching... I sometimes think, how the hell do you know they are actually dead and cant feel you cutting their head off ??? 

I have vegatarian days now and then, when meat isnt consumed through the day, it helps my concience from time to time 

cereal for breekie, cucumber sarnie for lunch, baked spud for tea etc easily done, but I couldnt live on veg alone, I would cry alot and give up the will to live


----------



## Guest (Apr 12, 2011)

Thank you to everyone who has replied to this thread.

However I still haven't made my Veggie friend understand how I can eat meat and still be an animal lover

Someone else said I was a murderer for eating meat and that I am an animal hater and feel sorry for my pets. This person clearly doesn't know me & hasn't got a clue. I didn't bother wasting my time replying to her & is now deleted from my FB list.


----------



## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

My lil Babies said:


> Thank you to everyone who has replied to this thread.
> 
> However I still haven't made my Veggie friend understand how I can eat meat and still be an animal lover
> 
> Someone else said I was a murderer for eating meat and that I am an animal hater and feel sorry for my pets. This person clearly doesn't know me & hasn't got a clue. I didn't bother wasting my time replying to her & is now deleted from my FB list.


Maybe she tasted your cooking, and that's what she meant by you being a murderer?

Like when my mum murders the steak...cooks it till it's burned, whereas I prefer it so rare that the blood still runs out of it when you slice it open. Yum!


----------



## kaz_f (Mar 8, 2009)

My lil Babies said:


> Thank you to everyone who has replied to this thread.
> 
> However I still haven't made my Veggie friend understand how I can eat meat and still be an animal lover
> 
> Someone else said I was a murderer for eating meat and that I am an animal hater and feel sorry for my pets. This person clearly doesn't know me & hasn't got a clue. I didn't bother wasting my time replying to her & is now deleted from my FB list.


Awh she (your ex-friend) sounds like she's very harsh! you can't judge a person based on what they choose to eat. I think it's true to say that veggies do find it a little hard to understand but it's wrong to be so judgemental to another person. Sounds like she's best off deleted!


----------



## Guest (Apr 12, 2011)

classixuk said:


> Maybe she tasted your cooking, and that's what she meant by you being a murderer?
> 
> Like when my mum murders the steak...cooks it till it's burned, whereas I prefer it so rare that the blood still runs out of it when you slice it open. Yum!


Haha she has never tasted my cooking and she really wouldn't want to either. I am the worse cook ever. I'm lucky though as I have a chef for a husband, and we both love our steak rare also 

This person wasn't really a friend anyway just someone I know through someone else so aint really bothered by her stupid comment. My other friend who I was originally on about still doesn't understand but there is no hate between us and we have now left it as we will both just never agree with each other on this subject.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

It never ceases to amaze me when people claim to be animal lovers and yet treat their fellow human beings with such disrespect. We are after all animals so If you cannot love another human being, you have no right to call yourself an animal lover.


----------

