# Really fed up tonight



## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Im sick of family making snide comments about us "treating Phoebe like a baby" because we don't leave her on her own and we bring her everywhere with us. She has horrendous separation anxiety ffs! It's not that we WANT to take her everywhere with us, we have no bloody choice! But of course everyone else knows better because "they've had dogs for years" and "no dog likes to be left by itself" and "she just needs to learn to deal with it"

They just don't understand how bad she is. It's not just a few cries and a bark or two when she's left on her own. She's absolutely petrified. She howls, cries, shakes, pants, paces and loses all control of her bladder and bowels. It's not like we're ignoring it either. We've been working on it every single day since she was 12 weeks old. We've spend £100's on a behaviourist, we do confidence building exercises and we're trying to increase the time she's alone gradually, all of which has helped and she's made huge progress.. but it's a painfully slow process.

It really does get me down sometimes that OH and I can't do anything together anymore without Phoebe but hey ho, I wouldn't change her for the world so we just have to deal with it as best we can.

So tonight, I wanted to go to a firework display in the town centre. Phoebe has no problems with fireworks whatsoever. She's been in the back garden with me a few times when there has been a display nearby and they do not bother her in the slightest, neither do crowds of people, so we decided to go and take her with us. I brought lots of yummy treats for her and a toy in case she got bored and off we went to meet family in the town and watch the fireworks. We parked really close by so if there was any problems, we could be back in the car within a few minutes. We stood off to the side away from the crowds so she wasn't bothering anyone. The fireworks started and as I expected, Phoebe didn't even notice. She was too interested in the treats in my hand and following cues to sit, lie down, stand, give paw etc her tail wagging the entire time.
A couple walked behind us and the woman announced really loudly (obviously for us to hear) how she doesn't understand why people would bring a dog to a firework display and how it's cruelty to animals. I was really hurt and annoyed that someone would accuse us of being cruel to our dog when in reality, I would NEVER have taken her there if I thought for one second she would get stressed. So anyway, family member asks what's wrong as she didn't hear what the woman said so OH explains what happened.. family member agrees with the woman! It was hurtful enough that a stranger thinks we're being cruel to her, but now family member thinks the same! OH pointed out the fact that Phoebe still hadn't even noticed the fireworks and was happily wagging her tail waiting on her next cue to get a treat and was in fact loving being somewhere she'd never been before. Didn't matter though, it was cruel and we should have left her at home by herself.

I'm constantly with her - 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. I know better than anyone what stresses her and what doesn't.

Sorry for moaning, just really fed up. Anyways, here's a pic of her chilling out on the chair after her "horrific" adventure.


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## steveshanks (Feb 19, 2015)

Pip doesn't have any SA but we still take him everywhere because he is part of the family, if anyone says anything I just don't care. I think I'm getting to that age where I don't worry what people think anymore and it feels great, I wish I'd been like that more in my younger days, I highly recommend it. Failing that a swift F Off said with a smile usually does the job LOL.......Steve


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## steveshanks (Feb 19, 2015)

I forgot to add Phoebe is so gorgeous I'd never leave her either ;o)


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## Charity (Apr 17, 2013)

I sympathise with your situation. Although our old dog didn't have separation anxiety issues, in fact we were lucky in that she was quite happy being left at home, we had seven years of ill health with her which included her being blind and deaf and for the last two, our own lives came to a complete standstill. Like you, I looked after her every minute of every day and could only go out for short periods. My OH and I never went out together for a day or an evening as one of us would have to stay at home with her, we couldn't spend an evening with friends, go on holiday. To everyone else, she looked fine, just old, and I know certain people thought we were over reacting. Friends would still ask us to go places or say 'you should go and see so and so' without thinking and to keep having to saying 'I can't' or 'I must get home for the dog' sounded pretty lame I'm sure and it was extremely wearing. No matter what we told them, they weren't listening and just didn't understand the level of care required. I was told more than once we should have her PTS when I was just trying to offoad on someone. I was even accosted by a stranger one day who asked me why she was wearing a coat as it was too warm and I had to explain she was old and unwell. Whilst you try to ignore these things, people's continual lack of understanding and some comments does hurt, probably more so as the situation you are living with has already made you stressed. In the end the whole thing was making me ill and, whilst I wanted it to end and us to have a normal life, I knew this would only happen when she died. Well, we have our normal life now but I'm still unhappy because I no longer have my precious little girl and weep for her nearly every day. Of course people don't understand that either. I'm afraid Nettles we just have to grin and bear it or tell them where to go, I've done that very occasionally when they've caught me on a very off day. . What's important is you and Phoebe and never mind what other people think, try to rise above their ignorance, you won't change them. Humans always think they know best.


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## chissy 15 (Mar 13, 2013)

Although Hogan can be left on his own quite happily (4_5 hours a day when I'm working), it's family members not understanding why we don't visit them ( OH family). Two of OH's sisters moved from Wiltshire to Cambridgeshire , one doesn't like dogs so Hogan wouldn't be welcome and the other has cats and wouldn't allow a dog in the house, so what are we suppose to do? They think we should put Hogàn in kennels or get one of the kids to come over and dog sit. My answer to that is OH can go visit by himself, I'll stay at home with Hogan Don't think I'm very popular with his family


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

Would your family leave a terrified child alone? Your dedication to your dog is admirable.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

I have to say that if I saw a dog in a car at a fireworks display I'm afraid I'd think pretty much the same thing - while I realise that you know that she's fine with them, knowing how stupid most humans are, I'd probably have thought 'idiots' ..... and I'm afraid I personally don't feel a fireworks display is an appropriate place to take and leave a dog in a car (no matter what the circumstances)

Do you know what caused her SA? I'm a firm believer that they're not born with it and that if you can find out the trigger it should enable you to come up with a plan

While I also admire your dedication to her, at the end of the day, no matter how hard you try, there will inevitably be times that you have no option but to leave her on her own


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Don't waste your time worrying about what other people think. We very rarely leave ours on their own and when we do its for a very short time. We come as a family unit and "Love me Love my dog" applies.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Lilylass said:


> I have to say that if I saw a dog in a car at a fireworks display I'm afraid I'd think pretty much the same thing -


I dont think they left her in the car. TBH I wouldnt bother if I saw a happy dog at a firework display...probably coz I used to have a dog that spent every nov 5th sat out in the garden totally entranced by the fireworks!
SA is a horrible thing though, Im really glad none of mine have it. Although I have had to make alot of allowances for the dogs regarding not doing things with friends and family...but I always tell everybody that its a shame but I like the dogs better then them anyways!!LOL:Hilarious


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## Connie4dogs (Nov 5, 2015)

Phoebe was not in the car as the OP said their car was nearby...people could see for themselves that the dog was not distressed...don't worry about what people think or say , you know your dog better than anyone .

ps...she is adorable....

Shirl


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Ohhhh what I wouldn't give to be able to take Dexter absolutely anywhere...... Never going to happen . Ignore people who do not know your dog, and tell family to butt out. Leaving a dog at home to worry helps no one, continue doing what you're doing, she'll get there


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

catz4m8z said:


> I dont think they left her in the car.


OK apologies mis-read that bit - still personally don't feel it's an appropriate place to take a dog (sorry)


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

Ignore their comments, no-one knows your dog better than you and its none of anyone else's business. Dogs are part of our family and what makes us happy is ensuring our dogs are happy.

These people's beliefs are old fashioned rather like don't pick up a new born baby when its crying you'll spoil him - so we leave baby to cry until red in the face - what rot baby is crying for reason finding out what the reason is, is an art in itself.

If loving and caring is spoiling my lot are spoilt rotten and I'm proud of it.

She is beautiful and so relaxed, keep up the good work.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Don't waste your time worrying about what other people think. We very rarely leave ours on their own and when we do its for a very short time. We come as a family unit and "Love me Love my dog" applies.


Totally agree! Neither of mine suffer from SA and are happy to be left alone in the house. Nevertheless, I prefer to take them with me whenever possible. They're my friends, my family and I thoroughly enjoy having their company!


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

I have taken a dog to a firework display. Did not actually intend to, we were just out walking in town one Saturday evening mid November and realised the football club were having a bonfire night so went in. The dog we had at the time was the take anywhere not fazed by anything type so we felt absolutely confident she would be fine if not a little bored just to find herself stood still in a field for 15 minutes. A couple of people did comment but I accept that didn`t get annoyed or upset by it. I think if you do chose to take your dog to a fire work display you should both except and accept people may well make comments about it being an unsuitable place to bring a dog. I think it is a commonly held belief that many, many dogs do not like fireworks, only have to hear the barking and howling when fireworks are going off to get that idea. If people see an animal they believe is going to be upset by the noise then they are quite likely going to feel the need to say something, human nature really and even though the owner may be saying the dog is fine everyone thinks every dog owner except themselves are an idiot with no idea of dog body language! 


Not much point in getting upset or annoyed, but again it is human nature to be upset when the care given to a pet is being criticised. All you can be in control of is your own belief and confidence in each given situation and to me that also involves how you are going to feel or react if, as inevitably someone will, makes a comment.


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## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

Chip does not suffer with SA but he does not like being left but he does settle, he is my little velcro dog lol but I never leave him where I go he goes and if he can't go some where with me I do not go except for food shopping, this has cause a lot of contention with members of my family over the past 3 years that I have had him so has the amount of money that he has cost in vet fees. I have even had he is costing a fortune , he is always ill , it's not fair on him you should PTS, They have always been told NOT very politely he is my dog , it is my money and my life don't like the way I live my life you know where the door is and until your attitude changes don't come back. I can't say that at times it did not upset me and make me doubt if I was doing the right thing but at the end of the day, my life , my money , my decisions to make. The same goes for you Nettles Phoebe is your dog, it is your life and any decisions are your's to make you know your dog and what's best for her it doesn't matter what any one else thinks or says just shrug it off and ignore them


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

I think it's already been established anyway but just to clarify as I think it's important, she WAS NOT left in the car. She was with me, at my feet, interacting with me the entire time so I could make sure she was ok. The car was 1-2 minutes away so we could leave if she showed any signs of distress.
I understand why some people think it may not be appropriate for their dog, and some people may not be able to read the body language of my happy waggy tailed dog and some people may not understand the circumstances surrounding it.. but my family do. They should know better of me and that's what really hurts.
The only other option was for me to stay at home with her, which of course would be fine, that's what I always do, but in the 6 months we have had her, the only time I've been able to go anywhere or do anything non dog related was when my cousin looked after her for half an hour so we could take the cat to the vet. Not exactly a fun day out, but still a much needed break.
Last night I just felt I needed another tiny bit of normality before I go completely crackers. Both for her sake as well as mine. I'm more upset about things now than I would have been just staying at home with her as usual.. so I've learnt my lesson!
I feel like I'm resigned to the fact that this is the way life is now and that's fair enough. It's the chance you take when you get a puppy and I certainly wouldn't change her for anything.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Tbh (and probably going against the direction of the thread) but it's really beneficial for you and the dog to teach it that it can be left alone. Ok she may have SA but she won't have been born that way. 

There will comes times when you HAVE to leave her by herself, so it's best to teach her and get her used to it early on. 

As a puppy my dogs are left alone for increasing periods of time, so now they are very happy to be left alone, it's easier as a puppy to teach this but not impossible in an older dog (though harder sometimes). 

But it is your dog and of course you can do what you like, but I do see where those peoples comments are coming from.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

stuaz said:


> Tbh (and probably going against the direction of the thread) but it's really beneficial for you and the dog to teach it that it can be left alone. Ok she may have SA but she won't have been born that way.
> 
> There will comes times when you HAVE to leave her by herself, so it's best to teach her and get her used to it early on..


That's the point I was trying to make earlier - dogs are not born with SA, something happens that sets it off and the OP needs to find the trigger so they can find a way to make Phoebe feel happier / more secure when she is left

Even with absolute dedication and total commitment - there is absolutely no way that you can go through a dog's entire life and never have to leave them .....


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Lilylass said:


> Do you know what caused her SA? I'm a firm believer that they're not born with it and that if you can find out the trigger it should enable you to come up with a plan
> 
> no matter how hard you try, there will inevitably be times that you have no option but to leave her on her own


We don't know what caused the SA as she has always had it from we got her at 8 weeks old and diagnosed at 12 weeks. She's from a litter of 10 and although we don't know all the pups, we know 5 of them and she's the only one with SA. It's all things we have investigated with her behaviourist.
I disagree though that it's inevitable that she'll have to be left alone at some stage. She'll never be left alone until she's comfortable with it, as advised by her behaviourist.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

stuaz said:


> Tbh (and probably going against the direction of the thread) but it's really beneficial for you and the dog to teach it that it can be left alone. Ok she may have SA but she won't have been born that way.
> 
> There will comes times when you HAVE to leave her by herself, so it's best to teach her and get her used to it early on.
> 
> ...


I think you've misunderstood me. We aren't choosing to take her with us. We're working on the advice being given to us by her behaviourist. We are working on her SA every single day and she is improving. I don't want her to be anxious and I don't want her to be stuck to my side 24/7 which is why we are doing everything in our power to change that.. gradually and at her pace. But until she's comfortable being left alone and not getting so stressed that she looses control of her bodily functions and gets into such a state that she's hurting herself, she cannot and will not be left alone.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Nettles said:


> We don't know what caused the SA as she has always had it from we got her at 8 weeks old and diagnosed at 12 weeks. She's from a litter of 10 and although we don't know all the pups, we know 5 of them and she's the only one with SA. It's all things we have investigated with her behaviourist.
> I disagree though that it's inevitable that she'll have to be left alone at some stage. She'll never be left alone until she's comfortable with it, as advised by her behaviourist.


Poor button - have you spoken to her breeder about it as something must've happened when she was still there if she arrived with it.

I'm very sorry but I disagree that it's possible to go through an entire lifespan of a dog without EVER having to leave them - it just isn't feasible that in 10 - 15 years you will never, ever have to leave them at some point

What about if there was a family emergency etc - they do happen and, when they do, you really do need to be able to drop everything and if the dog has to be left for a few hours, then there's little you can do about it


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

If you ever want a break, you are more than welcome to leave her with us for a few hours, given you are only up the road  might stop the family yapping if you are seen without her  chin up Missus we are rarely without at least one of ours


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Nettles said:


> I disagree though that it's inevitable that she'll have to be left alone at some stage. She'll never be left alone until she's comfortable with it, as advised by her behaviourist.


Sorry but you can't guarantee that. There will be a time when you have to leave her, family emergency is one that comes to mind.

It's great that your working to sort the SA though .


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Nettles said:


> We don't know what caused the SA as she has always had it from we got her at 8 weeks old and diagnosed at 12 weeks. She's from a litter of 10 and although we don't know all the pups, we know 5 of them and she's the only one with SA. It's all things we have investigated with her behaviourist.
> I disagree though that it's inevitable that she'll have to be left alone at some stage. She'll never be left alone until she's comfortable with it, as advised by her behaviourist.


Ok worse case scenario...and this is truely worse case scenario and I am very surprised a behaviourist has said she should never be left alone as if it may never ever happen. Life can get in the way sometimes. 12 weeks is very young to be diagnosed with separation anxiety too, it doesn't sound right. All puppies can take a while to settle and cry while left alone its normal and can last months, just like having a crocodile rather than a puppy. Some settle fast, some don't.

Worse case scenario, Phoebe needs to stay at the vets overnight. She's not high risk and just needs rest and rehydration via drip.
Your vets, like many others does not have anyone on site through the night. Its not all like 'supervet'.
Phoebe would be so petrified, anxious upset but she needs the treatment. The other animals would be affected too.

Yes the simple solution would be don't use this vet, simples, but if you didn't have a choice, and there isn't always a choice.

If anything this thread has highlighted the fact, although Phoebe is wonderful and a credit to you, please still take her with you but you need to work on separation anxiety. Shes young, shes a quick learner it will be easier now than later.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I am sorry to hear you're fed up @Nettles 

I have just given an example of my family on ouesi's thread about training regulation. I've tried to gently suggest that the clicker isn't a bribe and that flooding her with dogs isn't a cure for reactivity and scent work isn't a waste of time... now I just tell them to mind their own business. My aunt is the most vocal critic who is usually best silenced when I ask her when she last owned a dog (62 years ago). My other aunt's lhasa apso is an untrained nightmare who only eats human food but apparently I'm spending too much on Molly when I buy her Bob and Lush. Grrrrrrrrrr - I feel myself getting reactive.

You have professional help for her SA, you know your dog. When you feel yourself getting riled you have friends on PF


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

You need to develop a thicker skin is all. You know Phoebe and what is best for her. Why care what anyone else thinks?


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Don't waste your time worrying about what other people think. We very rarely leave ours on their own and when we do its for a very short time. We come as a family unit and "Love me Love my dog" applies.


That's the way we are with Dillon if he's not welcome, we don't go.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Lilylass said:


> OK apologies mis-read that bit - still personally don't feel it's an appropriate place to take a dog (sorry)


Can I ask why you don't feel its appropriate? Would completely understand if it was a dog unhappy with loud noises but Phoebe isn't. What about gun dogs out in the field with loud bangs of guns going off for hours? One of mine is gun shy despite being a gun dog so I wouldn't take him to either place as he would be terrified and miserable but Indie rottie doesn't care about noises and loves people so if I just had her I probably would take her somewhere like that if and only if I felt she was comfortable with it. Surely the OP knows her own dog well enough to know where its appropriate to take her.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

I know exactly where you're coming from. I have had to completely rearrange my life to take into account Dexter's and then Lola's separation anxiety. I very rarely get to see my friends unless they agree to meet for lunch and weekend in a dog friendly place. 

I don't have much family over here, just my brother, so I don't need to deal with them, but comments from my friends like "do you still have the dogs" and "they're getting away with murder and ruining your life" make me either want to hit them or I get really down about it. 

But, these two are the ones I want to come home to, they're the ones who come and lie on my feet if I'm sad and they're the ones who make me laugh so much. They're not getting away with murder, they're my babies


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I have one dog who doesnt care about loud bangs but would I take him to a firework display? Absolutely not. I am another one who thinks it's not an appropriate place for a dog. Lets not forget their hearing is far more sensitive to ours so although they may not be showing signs of distress, it cant be particularly nice for them. Smoke from the bonfire will also be an irritant to their sensitive noses, plus the potential for them to be stepped on and bumped into by people in the crowd. Given a choice between being in that kind of environment and being snuggled up on their beds, I know what my dogs would choose.

I dont think it's healthy for human or canine to be with each other constantly, I also dont think it's particularly practical. My ex's dog had to be taken everywhere with us as she would escape her crate and wreck the house if left alone. It was an absolute pain in the backside, especially in winter and in summer because it was constantly on our minds that she was left in the car (cant take a dog in the cinema or when going out dining etc). My dogs had no choice about being left alone, they had to get used to it, it was as simple as that, and even now they spend a good deal of time separated from me. If my situation was different and there werent certain rules we had to adhere to, i'd still ensure my dogs spent time away from me and were happy being on their own.


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## icklemunch (May 4, 2015)

Ditto 

Murphy came to us at 5 months he is now 17 months and has never been left alone. Yes i get all the stupid comments..but i don't care. He's my dog and i got him with the intention of giving him the best life possible.

Chin up and i personally think Phoebe is extremely lucky to have you as her family


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Can I ask why you don't feel its appropriate? Would completely understand if it was a dog unhappy with loud noises but Phoebe isn't. What about gun dogs out in the field with loud bangs of guns going off for hours? One of mine is gun shy despite being a gun dog so I wouldn't take him to either place as he would be terrified and miserable but Indie rottie doesn't care about noises and loves people so if I just had her I probably would take her somewhere like that if and only if I felt she was comfortable with it. Surely the OP knows her own dog well enough to know where its appropriate to take her.


It's got nothing to do with how well the OP knows her dog - I'm positive she wouldn't take Phoebe somewhere that she felt was unsafe.

I personally don't feel somewhere where there are fireworks is an appropriate place to take a dog - for exactly the same reason that I don't feel it's appropriate for people to walk their dogs along a street either off lead or on a flexi-lead

No matter how bomb proof your dog is, it only takes that one time for something terrible to happen - they see something that they just have to chase even though they may have ignored every cat / squirrel / bunny etc they've ever gone past ..... or that one time that they get a really bad fright (it could be from anything - a stray firework whizzing straight past them, to a crash in the road).... absolutely anything could do it

IMHO that one time can (and sadly does) happen - it's just not worth the risk when it can be totally avoided

Think how you'd feel if the worst happened ..... the guilt is horrific to live with


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

icklemunch said:


> Ditto
> 
> Murphy came to us at 5 months he is now 17 months and has never been left alone. Yes i get all the stupid comments..but i don't care. He's my dog and *i got him with the intention of giving him the best life possible*.
> 
> Chin up and i personally think Phoebe is extremely lucky to have you as her family


I think we all have that goal in mind when PFers get their dogs, it kinda implies we arent giving our dogs the best lives if we leave them alone. We do our dogs no favours by having them by our sides constantly and it just makes a rod for our own backs. I dont even understand why people want their dogs with them all the time, that seems a tad obsessive to me.


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## melannie (Sep 4, 2015)

+1 in total favour of "never take a dog into a place of danger such as a fireworks display", why ? well do I need to explain why ? I don't think so, my dog doesn't mind fireworks very much at all as I observed just a couple of weeks ago, but that doesn't mean I would take him into a display, no chance, not under any circumstance, in fact I wouldn't even take myself or my family to such events either (everyone's own choice though), it is simply not worth the risks that can sometimes be involved.

I can remember as a kid my mother and father taking me to these events as I cried to go (never took any dog though, not ever), so they would take me year after year in my early years because it is nice and exciting, no doubt about that, but I can remembered some horrific scenes were people had been hit in the face with super powerful rockets etc and having to be rushed away in ambulances and things like that, seen all that quite a few times as a kid, when I got a little older it certainly made me think twice about it, nowdays viewing fireworks from inside the house looking out the windows is more than enough for me.

But yeah, I don't think I would call out loud to someone and tell them that they are stupid for having an animal at such event as its their own choice, but I would certainly be thinking these things in my head for sure, same as I think people that are seen now and again in city centre extremely busy streets with people all barging into each other and then all of a sudden you see a total idiot with a dog, that to me is just crazy, its hard enough just walking in such crowds, I would never even dream of taking a dog into that situation, not even if the dog liked it, no chance.

edited at 6.14pm, I wanted to add regarding separation anxiety in dogs, we had that problems with a King Charles we had years ago, she would make a hell of a fuss and a mess when left alone etc, back in those day I can honestly say that not one single person used crates for dogs either and we didn't either, so yes the dog would make a giant fuss and a hell of a mess for a long long time BUT eventually the dog learned that we were not going to give in to her acting up and eventually the dog just naturally grew out of it, nowdays though people would probably just crate a dog when going out somewhere where they really shouldn't take a dog anyway, the restaurant, a club, a pub, supermarkets, firework displays etc etc etc, the list goes on and on, crate obviously isn't supposed to be used for a dog that has bad separation anxiety as we all know, but if push comes to shove then sometimes, maybe just sometimes when all else is lost we have to take drastic steps, its either that or don't leave the house at all and stay with the dog 24/7 and have groceries delivered etc or go out and leave the dog in a room and come back to a trashed house, or crate the dog and confine the mess to a small area, some people will obviously be in favour of their own methods, thankfully this latest mutt of mines is fine left alone, so I don't have that problem thank goodness, I know because I have CCTV in the house watching every move, he does get crated though when I cant take him places which is hardly ever


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

Unfortunately when you have a dog with behaviour issues anyone who has ever had a dog and been lucky enough to not have said issue is an expert. If you've had the dog since a puppy people are doubly condescending because of course it's then clearly all your fault. 

It must be very hard with the separation anxiety. My boy is hard work, but he can deal with being left so if we're going somewhere that's going to be difficult for him he can stay home. Also means I can avoid him coming into contact with people who are going to be judgemental by simply leaving him behind. If she has to come everywhere then her issues will be painfully obvious to everyone.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

why is everyone having a "pop" at the op, when she very clearly stated they are working on the dogs issues, but as you all know these things take time. Op wants to be able to leave said pooch, and is making steps so that in the future that us possible


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## Charity (Apr 17, 2013)

I bet Nettles is thinking 'why did I add this thread?' as some people are taking the same attitude as the family she is frustrated with. If you have never had a dog who doesn't lead a normal dog's life and needs more than 100% support which affects your way of life, then, I'm sorry, you really have no idea. Some of you suggest just leaving her to it and she'll get over it. Phoebe has EXTREME separation anxiety, not just feeling a little nervous or being sick when her owners go out. Nettles is trying her utmost to help Phoebe and she says she is improving but it is obviously a long process. If you think how often most of us go out under normal circumstances, you can't call on family, friends or neighbours every five minutes, particularly if they aren't dog savvy or understand the problem. Also, sometimes the preparation needed or the after effects when you return, not to mention the worry while you're out, make it not worthwhile doing it the first place. We left our dog with friends one evening when we went out and, whilst she was fine while we were gone, she became a nightmare when our friends left, was totally hyper and wouldn't settle until the early hours of the morning which wasn't good for her with her health problems so we never did it again. You do what is best for your dog to keep things as stress free as possible, their needs always come before your own. No doubt I will get some flak now from people who disagree but some people give more commitment to their animals than others and I commend Nettles for all the efforts she is making for a dog she clearly loves and the time and commitment she is giving, especially as I know she would give anything for things to be different.


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## icklemunch (May 4, 2015)

Leanne77 said:


> I think we all have that goal in mind when PFers get their dogs, it kinda implies we arent giving our dogs the best lives if we leave them alone. We do our dogs no favours by having them by our sides constantly and it just makes a rod for our own backs. I dont even understand why people want their dogs with them all the time, that seems a tad obsessive to me.


And its comments like this that don't help. He's my dog. I chose this life style for him and being called obsessive is very rude!!

He isn't with me all the time i said he isn't ever left alone!! 
And as for the comment re being left alone, no i never once said people who leave their dogs don't have the best life. I don't disagree with dogs being left alone at all. When you have a dog with severe separation issues and in the lucky position that he doesn't have to be left alone why should i put him or me through it??


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## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

Stuff what other people think. You know what makes your dog happy and healthy, not them. So flick your hair over shoulder and turn your head with your chin held high!!!! Sod them and their judgemental attitude when they dont know they situation.


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

When I had my younger dog Daisy she had bad SA. It was terrible while we worked on it. Really limited my life and what I could do and how long I could go out for. But would I have taken her to a firework display? No way! Much too dangerous. If Daisy wasn't OK at been left the time of the display I simply wouldn't have gone until we'd got to a point where Daisy was OK been left .


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Really? Really? Some people in this thread have a brass neck to be sitting on the side lines telling people what they should and shouldn't do! People in glasses houses and all that! Before you start judging others maybes yous should go and take a look at the threads where people ain't to keen on how you treat or keep your dog/dogs and consider that before being so judgemental! It's a laugh it really is....... Utter tosh lol


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I have to agree, though I respect _some_ of the members who are concerned as they generally give good advice but there are few in glass houses whose training approaches have been dubious. I don't think for one second in reading any of @Nettles past threads that they would put their dog in any danger. Perhaps it's a contentious subject as fireworks can worry many owners and dogs but please *let's be nice, it would be horrible and terribly rude of the forum to put a new person off PF, especially one who has been so entertaining and positive as Nettles*.

Okay so your dog might be worried about fireworks. But that's not to say Nettle's dog is and that was not the issue that was being asked about here. Read the opening post again and look at the question.. And remember that they are working with a behaviourist who has met their dog. We haven't....


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

I'm sorry that you had a dog that has SA.. when I first get mine from a puppy I start alone time without me from day 1 and luckily both my dogs will happily be left alone all day if need be - though this doesn't happen as I have a pet sitter. Though nevertheless it doesn't mean by doing this that they could not still develop SA.

I admire what you do with your dog though, you're obviously a very caring and loving owner to your dog and you do whatever you can to make her feel comfortable and happy.


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

MollySmith said:


> I have to agree, though I respect _some_ of the members who are concerned as they generally give good advice but there are few in glass houses whose training approaches have been dubious. I don't think for one second in reading any of @Nettles past threads that they would put their dog in any danger. Perhaps it's a contentious subject as fireworks can worry many owners and dogs but please *let's be nice, it would be horrible and terribly rude of the forum to put a new person off PF, especially one who has been so entertaining and positive as Nettles*.
> 
> Okay so your dog might be worried about fireworks. But that's not to say Nettle's dog is and that was not the issue that was being asked about here. Read the opening post again and look at the question.. And remember that they are working with a behaviourist who has met their dog. We haven't....


Well said, Molly. I wouldn't take Daisy to a fireworks display, not because she's scared of fireworks or I think it would be dangerous for her, but just because big crowds make her a little nutty and it wouldn't be fun for us (although she'd have a blast, I'm sure!). I'm not sure how fireworks displays are much more dangerous than taking your dog a multitude of other places if your dog isn't bothered by them, and if Phoebe is enjoying it then whose business is it to comment on it? I'm sure she wasn't running offlead amongst the lit fireworks! I wouldn't dream of commenting on someone else taking their dog somewhere, unless their dog was visibly distressed.

And to add to what Charity said, having a dog that can't be left is extremely hard work. I loved Belle to bits, but I didn't get a full night's sleep for six months, my partner and I couldn't go for a meal out, the cinema, or even out for long walks together. Belle had to come with us if we wanted to go somewhere, because she was old, deaf, and suffered from SA where she would bark and defecate if we left. We did try training her, but training a 15-year-old, deaf dog with dementia isn't an easy task, and in the end, we just had to settle for taking here where we could, and sacrificing other stuff. It's not easy, and if taking Phoebe to the fireworks means Nettles can spend some nice time outside the house with her partner and Phoebe, then good for them.


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## Ck&Milly (Nov 22, 2015)

I understand the reasoning behind _not_ taking a dog to a firework display, but then it did cross my mind to take Milly on Saturday to one, the only reason I didn't in the end was that it was on school grounds. I'm sure you know your dog is happy then that's all that matters, someone earlier had a good point about gun dogs, on test/group days it might as well be firework night!

We've only had Milly for almost two months but she's only left my side for a couple of days of work and to go grocery shopping, I'm very happy for her to be with me all the time regardless of what family think!

Does your behaviour specialist think she can be left with a puppy sitter for a couple of hours so you can get some space, I know (from having three children) just a few hours can do wonders 

I just wanted to say, I've just joined but have been following your posts for a few weeks and it sounds like you are such a caring and compassionate mum to your pup; she is very lucky to have you and not someone who would just make her 'get used to it'

Cornelia


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## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

I think some of you VERY judgemental people need to go and re-read Nettles posts PROPERLY she has said that Phoebe had SA from when she first had her and they have been working on her issues since then with the help of a behaviourist also that she would like to be able to have time to her self when Phoebe's issue are sorted. These things take time especially when as severe as Phoebe's She is already feeling very down and I am sure your comments are NOT helping, I personally would not take Chip to a firework display even if he was not frightened of them but then I wouldn't go myself either as I loath fireworks but in saying that I would not jump on any one who does if their dog is ok with it, and Nettles also stated they stood to the side away from the crowd so even that issue does not come into account read threads properly people before you jump on the holier than though band wagon please


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

I must admit Nettles- human nature being what it is, that when I went to a firework display recently and saw someone with a young lab puppy there, I thought 'OMG! What are they thinking?!'
Unfortunately, it turned out that they didn't know whether this dog (given it's age and the amount of time they would have had it) would be ok with fireworks and I heard them say that their trainer had recommended they take him so that he gets used to it (as if by magic right!). Unfortunately, this particular dog turned out to be terrified. Sounds as though the trainer didn't give them sensible advice, given the lack of information that this person would have had on the dog.

That said, you have reminded me to think more before I let human judgemental nature override.
I can understand the logic of taking your dog that has proven to be unconcerned with fireworks (but has severe SA) to the display with you and keeping her at a distance, away from crowds and noise etc. Certainly better for the dog than being beside herself, home alone- which will not be conducive to teaching her that being alone isn't scary.

The whole 'just leave her- she'll get used to it' is pure and simple flooding. There are major fallouts with using flooding where a negative emotional response is concerned. The systematic approach, which is the one that you are taking with help from you behaviourist, is the most humane approach and more likely to be successful and durable in the long run.


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

Actually the above post about the puppy sitter is a good idea.

I completely get what you're doing - teaching her that being alone is ok, therefore never leaving her to get herself in a state and thus undoing your hard work. However, I think people do have a point that it's probably going to be hard to acheive NEVER ever leaving her because life does have a tendency to throw curve balls. Given that progress with the SA training is slow is it worth searching out and acclimatising her to somewhere she could potentially go in the event something comes up and you need to leave her before she's at that point in her SA training? Maybe get to know a dog walker that does home boarding, or a decent dog day care, or get her used to being at a friend or relatives house? Is she ok as long as she has other human company or does it have to be you? You may have already considered this but if not perhaps worth a thought.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

*sigh* I've already explained that we are working on her SA and are doing so with the help of a behaviourist who I trust and who has helped us make great improvements so far, so will be continuing to follow her advice. Leaving her alone "to get used to it" is not an option and anyone who thinks that is the way to treat a dog with severe SA has most definitely not seen how horrendous it is. It isn't just a dog being huffy and not wanting to be left alone. It is sheer terror.

Also, I don't know how most other firework displays go but I've yet to go to one without safety regulations in place and people running round with half their faces blown off. Just to put things into perspective, we were not dancing amongst the fireworks as they were being lit, this was our view of the display..










I would bet my last penny on the fact that we were absolutely in no danger of being injured by a firework. Certainly no more so than the thousands of people who attended with young children and stood around the safety barriers. I don't see how there is any more danger of my dog being hit by a firework than a child being hit. Also, smoke from the bonfire? What bonfire? There was also no chance of her being hit by a car! The traffic in the town centre is stopped by police during the display so she's actually more likely to be hit by a car when I take her for a walk on any other day of the week.

I'm tired thinking about it now. It's upset me and has been bothering me all day and has really got me down so I need to draw a line under it and move on so won't be discussing it any further tonight.

Thank you for the all the kind, understanding and supportive messages. It's very much appreciated.

@Meezey, thank you so incredibly much for your kind offer. I wouldn't embarrass myself by leaving my insane hooligan with you but I really appreciate the kindness xo


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Leanne77 said:


> *I have one dog who doesnt care about loud bangs but would I take him to a firework display? Absolutely not.* I am another one who thinks it's not an appropriate place for a dog. Lets not forget their hearing is far more sensitive to ours so although they may not be showing signs of distress, it cant be particularly nice for them. Smoke from the bonfire will also be an irritant to their sensitive noses, plus the potential for them to be stepped on and bumped into by people in the crowd. Given a choice between being in that kind of environment and being snuggled up on their beds, I know what my dogs would choose.
> 
> I dont think it's healthy for human or canine to be with each other constantly, I also dont think it's particularly practical. My ex's dog had to be taken everywhere with us as she would escape her crate and wreck the house if left alone. It was an absolute pain in the backside, especially in winter and in summer because it was constantly on our minds that she was left in the car (cant take a dog in the cinema or when going out dining etc). My dogs had no choice about being left alone, they had to get used to it, it was as simple as that, and even now they spend a good deal of time separated from me. If my situation was different and there werent certain rules we had to adhere to, i'd still ensure my dogs spent time away from me and were happy being on their own.


But how does that differ from a days shooting? Not all fireworks displays include a bonfire. They hold them once a week on Poole Harbour late at night in the summer months during tourist season but no bonfires are involved nor are there usually bonfires at New Year displays. Some dogs are happy in crowds and some aren't. Phoebe clearly is so I really don't get what the problem is.



Lilylass said:


> It's got nothing to do with how well the OP knows her dog - I'm positive she wouldn't take Phoebe somewhere that she felt was unsafe.
> 
> I personally don't feel somewhere where there are fireworks is an appropriate place to take a dog - for exactly the same reason that I don't feel it's appropriate for people to walk their dogs along a street either off lead or on a flexi-lead
> 
> ...


Still don't get your specific objection to taking a dog you know is OK with fireworks to a display with the dog on a lead - she wasn't running around off lead where she could have got into trouble or run off into the road. Every single time we take our dogs out for a walk we are taking some sort of a risk, surely its all about knowing your dog, knowing what they can/can't cope with and taking basic safety precautions.



Leanne77 said:


> I think we all have that goal in mind when PFers get their dogs, it kinda implies we arent giving our dogs the best lives if we leave them alone. We do our dogs no favours by having them by our sides constantly and it just makes a rod for our own backs.* I dont even understand why people want their dogs with them all the time, that seems a tad obsessive to me*.


Thats a tad rude if you don't mind me saying so. I love being with my dogs, I work from home so I'm with them 24 hrs a day. Luckily my OH feels the same and neither of us choose to go anywhere without our dogs. We don't socialise/eat out or go on holiday without them. We spend all our free time doing things with our dogs as it so happens that ties in with the things we enjoy doing in life - walking/photography/watching wildlife etc. Shopping and crowds and restaurants and pubs are my idea of hell, much rather spend my spare time out in the forest with the dogs having a picnic and come home to curl up on the sofa with them while we watch a bit of TV. If that makes me obsessive I'm not sure I care, it makes me happy and makes my dogs happy


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Nettles said:


> @Meezey, thank you so incredibly much for your kind offer. I wouldn't embarrass myself by leaving my insane hooligan with you but I really appreciate the kindness xo


This house is full of insane hooligans  me being the biggest one more will just fit right in! Offer will stand if ever needed


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Nettles said:


> *sigh* I've already explained that we are working on her SA and are doing so with the help of a behaviourist who I trust and who has helped us make great improvements so far, so will be continuing to follow her advice. Leaving her alone "to get used to it" is not an option and anyone who thinks that is the way to treat a dog with severe SA has most definitely not seen how horrendous it is. It isn't just a dog being huffy and not wanting to be left alone. It is sheer terror.
> 
> Also, I don't know how most other firework displays go but I've yet to go to one without safety regulations in place and people running round with half their faces blown off. Just to put things into perspective, we were not dancing amongst the fireworks as they were being lit, this was our view of the display..
> 
> ...


I know that at time with Molly's reactivity I've been in tears, we're lucky that SA hasn't been a huge problem of us but I feel your upset in the post and it must be very hard to feel unsupported here. You're doing the right thing with the behaviourist and you just need to give it time - well done for taking the gentle (if slow road) than a quick fix. It'll pay off in the end I'm so sure.

Take care, get some sleep and you know what - those critics in real life won't matter tomorrow or again, you're unlikely to see them again and don't worry about PF, people will find other things to grumble about tomorrow. We can distract with goats if necessary 

I love being with Molly and I have SA when I leave her! Good on you for caring so much about your woof bag, absolutely nothing wrong with that whatever anyone says.


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

Meezey said:


> This house is full of insane hooligans  me being the biggest one more will just fit right in! Offer will stand if ever needed


Wish we were neighbours. Daisy would love to flirt with Cian and chase Eric about. Maybe I can post her down.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Thats a tad rude if you don't mind me saying so. I love being with my dogs, I work from home so I'm with them 24 hrs a day. Luckily my OH feels the same and neither of us choose to go anywhere without our dogs. We don't socialise/eat out or go on holiday without them. We spend all our free time doing things with our dogs as it so happens that ties in with the things we enjoy doing in life - walking/photography/watching wildlife etc. Shopping and crowds and restaurants and pubs are my idea of hell, much rather spend my spare time out in the forest with the dogs having a picnic and come home to curl up on the sofa with them while we watch a bit of TV. If that makes me obsessive I'm not sure I care, it makes me happy and makes my dogs happy


I think that's a bit rude of you to assume Leanne doesn't do stuff with her dogs. Just because she doesn't have her dogs in the living room, in her bedroom or with her at work, doesn't mean they are ignored..

@Nettles , I feel your pain. I have one with bad SA.. however we have tried everything and we did find that him being in with the other dogs helps. He's not as settled as I'd like him, but he doesn't howl, bark or eat my door frames anymore. Not saying that getting another dog is the answer of course. It's just what worked in my case.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

SLB said:


> I think that's a bit rude of you to assume Leanne doesn't do stuff with her dogs. Just because she doesn't have her dogs in the living room, in her bedroom or with her at work, doesn't mean they are ignored..


To be fair SLB this is exactly the reason Leanne has a bit of a cheek pointing the finger at OP, the fact her dogs are only allowed in the kitchen is often one that ends up with people judging so you would think there might have been a bit more consideration in her response about how people spend their time with their dogs ! Hence glasshouses and all that.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

SLB said:


> I think that's a bit rude of you to assume Leanne doesn't do stuff with her dogs. Just because she doesn't have her dogs in the living room, in her bedroom or with her at work, doesn't mean they are ignored..


Can you show me where I said Leanne doesn't do stuff with her dogs? I have no idea what she does or doesn't do with her dogs and was responding to her comment that people who want to be with their dogs all the time are a tad obsessive


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Fluffster said:


> Wish we were neighbours. Daisy would love to flirt with Cian and chase Eric about. Maybe I can post her down.


Cian and Eric would love it lol


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Signs you are obsessed with your dog

1. Your dog has a Facebook account
2. Your dog has an Instagram account
3. 75% of your conversation is about your dog
4. You can go from cross to love your dog in 2 seconds flat
5. You get separation anxiety not the dog
6. You want to pet random dogs
7. You look at rescue ads like others look at Rightmove
8. Spare change goes to dog charities
9. Your ringtone is a bark
10. You've pretty much given up your bed/sofa and most of your life to the dog


I am obsessed


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Fair enough, I did misread.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

MollySmith said:


> Signs you are obsessed with your dog
> 
> 1. Your dog has a Facebook account
> 2. Your dog has an Instagram account
> ...


I rarely go anywhere without my lot except work lol Everything is planned round them, we take them on holiday all the time, in all my time of having dogs they have never been in kennels! I have Rottweiler jewellery, ornament's and wall art lol we don't go out on school nights if dogs have been left during the day my dogs are a HUGE part of my life, most of my friends are dog people, I met my OH through dogs yep obsessed...


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Nettles said:


> We don't know what caused the SA as she has always had it from we got her at 8 weeks old and diagnosed at 12 weeks. She's from a litter of 10 and although we don't know all the pups, we know 5 of them and she's the only one with SA. It's all things we have investigated with her behaviourist.
> I disagree though that it's inevitable that she'll have to be left alone at some stage. She'll never be left alone until she's comfortable with it, as advised by her behaviourist.


I am not sure how a dog can be 'diagnosed' as having SA. It is a made up term for a dog that does not like being alone. It can be a pain having a dog that becomes destructive and howls or barks the whole time but it is not an illness for heavens sake. So an 8 week puppy cries and makes a fuss when it is left - they all do that. It is how YOU (or any new owner) reacts to that and builds up on leaving the pup that helps it to become happier to leave. At 12 weeks it is still a baby and surely any good behaviourist would be teaching you how to leave the pup for a few minutes at a time - not condemning you to a lifetime of slavery to your dog. If a pup is never left alone of course it will never improve - why should it.

As far as the fireworks thing goes, of course it is a totally inappropriate place to take your dog but if you are confident that you did the right thing why on earth would it bother you that someone made a remark about it.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Still don't get your specific objection to taking a dog you know is OK with fireworks to a display with the dog on a lead - she wasn't running around off lead where she could have got into trouble or run off into the road. Every single time we take our dogs out for a walk we are taking some sort of a risk, surely its all about knowing your dog, knowing what they can/can't cope with and taking basic safety precautions.


As I said, which you appear to have missed, it is a personal opinion that I feel it's an inappropriate place to take a dog - same as walking them off lead in a street or on a flexi lead

Being on / off lead at a fireworks even has nothing to do with it - nor does knowing the dog is not bothered by them - I personally don't feel it's an appropriate place for them - everyone is entitled to their personal opinions surely!

Yes, every time we take them out, we sadly run a risk of something happening - however, I do believe that there are some things that are avoidable if we don't put them in those situations in the first place.....


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Meezey said:


> I rarely go anywhere without my lot except work lol Everything is planned round them, we take them on holiday all the time, in all my time of having dogs they have never been in kennels! I have Rottweiler jewellery, ornament's and wall art lol we don't go out on school nights if dogs have been left during the day my dogs are a HUGE part of my life, most of my friends are dog people, I met my OH through dogs yep obsessed...


That all sounds perfectly normal to me. But you do go to work so you do leave them. Nettles will never be able to work, go to the doctor, go to hospital, have a baby - what a life. No wonder her family are concerned about the situation.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

MollySmith said:


> Signs you are obsessed with your dog
> 
> 1. Your dog has a Facebook account
> 2. Your dog has an Instagram account
> ...


Omg I need help   though I dont have a Facebook page or instagram for the dogs as that's not my sort of thing.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Lilylass said:


> As I said, which you appear to have missed, it is a personal opinion that I feel it's an inappropriate place to take a dog - same as walking them off lead in a street or on a flexi lead
> 
> Being on / off lead at a fireworks even has nothing to do with it - nor does knowing the dog is not bothered by them - I personally don't feel it's an appropriate place for them - everyone is entitled to their personal opinions surely!
> 
> Yes, every time we take them out, we sadly run a risk of something happening - however, I do believe that there are some things that are avoidable if we don't put them in those situations in the first place.....


Yes of course we are all entitled to our own opinions but I thought this was a discussion. OP is being given a pretty hard time by people judging her decision so I feel its fair enough to ask people why.



Blitz said:


> That all sounds perfectly normal to me. But you do go to work so you do leave them. Nettles will never be able to work, go to the doctor, go to hospital, have a baby - what a life. No wonder her family are concerned about the situation.


Who says she will never be able to do those things? She does have a partner so going to the hospital or doctor are perfectly possible as her OH can be with Phoebe plus as she keeps on saying she is working on the issue with a behaviourist and things are gradually improving. I really admire her commitment to her dog and willingness to stick with her and work on the issues rather than dump her on the nearest rescue as many others would do.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes of course we are all entitled to our own opinions but I thought this was a discussion. OP is being given a pretty hard time by people judging her decision so I feel its fair enough to ask people why.


I don't believe that I've given the OP a hard time - I've simply stated that I personally don't feel it's an appropriate place to take dogs - under any circumstances. If you can respect the OPs decision to take her dog there because she personally feels it's OK, then it should be equally OK to accept that others may feel it's not appropriate .... same as with pretty much everything, what is OK for some is a complete no to others, and vise versa


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Maybe you just haven't found the right trainer yet. Took us a couple before we found one that actually cared about the dog and knew what she was doing. 

I'm afraid I agree with the family, I'd be very worried. Although I prefer being at home with the dogs, I occasionally like to venture out, just the two of us for meals or just to shop together or have trips out. I work, so does the OH, often with similar timings. When I was when I was in hospital, it was over an hour away and I wanted to see my OH in the evenings. 

I would say that it's a very concerning situation: do neither of you have to go to work? Blitz is right, why should the dog learn to cope if she is never left? It used to kill me, leaving them to cry, but I did it, because I knew there was no way they would always have company. Different situation in that there's always another dog, but I can happily leave any of the three alone if the others have a different walk.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

My Ty has SA @Nettles so I totally sympathise. His doesn't result in destructive behaviour or messing inside the house, but he whines and howls and obviously I can't leave him to do so with adjoining neighbours so he pretty much accompanies me everywhere too. I went training with Cash today and Ty was left in the car...whining the entire time might I add. But generally he's happy to be left in the car and knows the routine pretty well. It is a tie in some instances such as wanting to go out with family or whatever, and I have to arrange for someone to come look after him or drop him off at my mum's. But in the most part it's not really affected my life that much and I've been able to work around his issues. Unlike yourself I never really tackled his SA so it's as much my own fault probably. The only time he's left now, which I've SLOWLY, slowly, built up to is taking Cash out for a 20 min walk in the evenings ( and sometimes in the mornings too I'll risk leaving him for slightly longer ). I'm pretty certain Ty doesn't make a lot of noise during these times, and my elderly neighbour always tells me she wouldn't know I have dogs as they're so quiet, so as long as she keeps saying that I guess I'm ok doing what we're doing 

But I agree with those saying stuff what others think, family or not. She's YOUR dog, it's YOUR life and you do want you want and what you know is in Phoebe's best interests.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I am around dogs pretty much 24/7, heck I even work with dogs...guess I'm screwed then 

@Nettles Keep doing what makes you happy, I'm sure with consistent work along side your behaviourist that you will continue to see improvements.
Well done for taking things at Phoebes' pace, instead of trying to rush her because others think they know best


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Lilylass said:


> I don't believe that I've given the OP a hard time - I've simply stated that I personally don't feel it's an appropriate place to take dogs - under any circumstances. If you can respect the OPs decision to take her dog there because she personally feels it's OK, then it should be equally OK to accept that others may feel it's not appropriate .... same as with pretty much everything, what is OK for some is a complete no to others, and vise versa


Yes of course I accept others may feel its not appropriate but in a discussion I think its OK to ask someone why they feel that. Personally if I don't want to be asked why I think a certain thing then I don't post it. As soon as its written down someone or other will come along and ask why. Thats not having a go at you or anyone else its just asking a question.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes of course we are all entitled to our own opinions but I thought this was a discussion. OP is being given a pretty hard time by people judging her decision so I feel its fair enough to ask people why.
> 
> Who says she will never be able to do those things? She does have a partner so going to the hospital or doctor are perfectly possible as her OH can be with Phoebe plus as she keeps on saying she is working on the issue with a behaviourist and things are gradually improving. I really admire her commitment to her dog and willingness to stick with her and work on the issues rather than dump her on the nearest rescue as many others would do.


Presumably someone in the family has to go to work! How can things be improving when she has NEVER left the dog alone.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Blitz said:


> Presumably someone in the family has to go to work! How can things be improving when she has NEVER left the dog alone.


I can't speak for @Nettles as I don't know her well enough or her personal circumstances but as far as I know she works from home and her partner goes to work. I'm not sure its correct to say she has NEVER left the dog alone, I'm sure she must have tried otherwise she wouldn't know how severe the SA is. Surely the important thing is that she is working on it and has stated that with the help of a behaviourist things are gradually improving. Doesn't she deserve some credit for that?


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Blitz said:


> Presumably someone in the family has to go to work! How can things be improving when she has NEVER left the dog alone.


She has clearly stated she is working on it. She has not just accepted it, she wants to be able to leave the dog, it takes a whole heap of time to achieve. She is getting professional help. Which I assume means leaving for short periods, not whole evenings at a time. She has said they ARE making progress. Jeez.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes of course I accept others may feel its not appropriate but in a discussion I think its OK to ask someone why they feel that. Personally if I don't want to be asked why I think a certain thing then I don't post it. As soon as its written down someone or other will come along and ask why. Thats not having a go at you or anyone else its just asking a question.


How do you explain a personal opinion? It's based on 40+ years of life experiences & I certainly couldn't even begin to try to put it on to words in a brief enough way to post on here

Fireworks & animals (of any kind) don't mix - that's how I was brought up & I can't say that I've ever seen anything to remotely chsne that opinion


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Meezey said:


> I rarely go anywhere without my lot except work lol Everything is planned round them, we take them on holiday all the time, in all my time of having dogs they have never been in kennels! I have Rottweiler jewellery, ornament's and wall art lol we don't go out on school nights if dogs have been left during the day my dogs are a HUGE part of my life, most of my friends are dog people, I met my OH through dogs yep obsessed...


I frequently debate the mythical rota of whose dogs in the office on what day with my director who owns a lab also called Molly. We are not allowed as were I work is very very dull so we often day dream about it


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Nettles said:


> I think you've misunderstood me. We aren't choosing to take her with us. We're working on the advice being given to us by her behaviourist. We are working on her SA every single day and she is improving. I don't want her to be anxious and I don't want her to be *stuck to my side 24/7 which is why we are doing everything in our power to change that.. gradually and at her pace. But until she's comfortable being left alone and not getting so stressed that she looses control of her bodily functions and gets into such a state that she's hurting herself, she cannot and will not be left alone*.





rottiepointerhouse said:


> I can't speak for @Nettles as I don't know her well enough or her personal circumstances but as far as I know she works from home and her partner goes to work. I'm not sure its correct to say she has NEVER left the dog alone, I'm sure she must have tried otherwise she wouldn't know how severe the SA is. Surely the important thing is that she is working on it and has stated that with the help of a behaviourist things are gradually improving. Doesn't she deserve some credit for that?


I am going by what Nettles said. And sorry, she says that the pup has been like that since 8 weeks old. If that is true something has gone very very wrong in her upbringing. But again, how can she improve if she is never left alone. Though of course it is far too late to say that, the deed is done.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Blitz said:


> I am not sure how a dog can be 'diagnosed' as having SA. It is a made up term for a dog that does not like being alone. It can be a pain having a dog that becomes destructive and howls or barks the whole time but it is not an illness for heavens sake. So an 8 week puppy cries and makes a fuss when it is left - they all do that. It is how YOU (or any new owner) reacts to that and builds up on leaving the pup that helps it to become happier to leave. At 12 weeks it is still a baby and surely any good behaviourist would be teaching you how to leave the pup for a few minutes at a time - not condemning you to a lifetime of slavery to your dog. If a pup is never left alone of course it will never improve - why should it.
> 
> As far as the fireworks thing goes, of course it is a totally inappropriate place to take your dog but if you are confident that you did the right thing why on earth would it bother you that someone made a remark about it.





Lilylass said:


> As I said, which you appear to have missed, it is a personal opinion that I feel it's an inappropriate place to take a dog - same as walking them off lead in a street or on a flexi lead
> 
> Being on / off lead at a fireworks even has nothing to do with it - nor does knowing the dog is not bothered by them - I personally don't feel it's an appropriate place for them - everyone is entitled to their personal opinions surely!
> 
> Yes, every time we take them out, we sadly run a risk of something happening - however, I do believe that there are some things that are avoidable if we don't put them in those situations in the first place.....





Blitz said:


> That all sounds perfectly normal to me. But you do go to work so you do leave them. Nettles will never be able to work, go to the doctor, go to hospital, have a baby - what a life. No wonder her family are concerned about the situation.





Lilylass said:


> I don't believe that I've given the OP a hard time - I've simply stated that I personally don't feel it's an appropriate place to take dogs - under any circumstances. If you can respect the OPs decision to take her dog there because she personally feels it's OK, then it should be equally OK to accept that others may feel it's not appropriate .... same as with pretty much everything, what is OK for some is a complete no to others, and vise versa





cinnamontoast said:


> Maybe you just haven't found the right trainer yet. Took us a couple before we found one that actually cared about the dog and knew what she was doing.
> 
> I'm afraid I agree with the family, I'd be very worried. Although I prefer being at home with the dogs, I occasionally like to venture out, just the two of us for meals or just to shop together or have trips out. I work, so does the OH, often with similar timings. When I was when I was in hospital, it was over an hour away and I wanted to see my OH in the evenings.
> 
> I would say that it's a very concerning situation: do neither of you have to go to work? Blitz is right, why should the dog learn to cope if she is never left? It used to kill me, leaving them to cry, but I did it, because I knew there was no way they would always have company. Different situation in that there's always another dog, but I can happily leave any of the three alone if the others have a different walk.





Blitz said:


> Presumably someone in the family has to go to work! How can things be improving when she has NEVER left the dog alone.





Lilylass said:


> How do you explain a personal opinion? It's based on 40+ years of life experiences & I certainly couldn't even begin to try to put it on to words in a brief enough way to post on here
> 
> Fireworks & animals (of any kind) don't mix - that's how I was brought up & I can't say that I've ever seen anything to remotely chsne that opinion


If Nettles wasn't consulting a professional which I think she found via the recommendations here, then yes your advice maybe constructive but Nettles *is*. A _personal consultation_ as opposed to one via a forum _based on scant information_. C'mon, it's very bad form to speak about someone when they have answered all the protestations on the previous page and have said they wish to 'retire' the thread. You can clearly see from her last post she was upset so have some consideration and humanity here.

To repeat my earlier post...
" I don't think for one second in reading any of @Nettles past threads that they would put their dog in any danger. Perhaps it's a contentious subject as fireworks can worry many owners and dogs but please *let's be nice, it would be horrible and terribly rude of the forum to put a new person off PF, especially one who has been so entertaining and positive as Nettles*.

Okay so your dog might be worried about fireworks. But that's not to say Nettle's dog is and that was not the issue that was being asked about here. Read the opening post again and look at the question.. And remember that they are working with a behaviourist who has met their dog. We haven't....


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Lexiedhb said:


> She has clearly stated she is working on it. She has not just accepted it, she wants to be able to leave the dog, it takes a whole heap of time to achieve. She is getting professional help. Which I assume means leaving for short periods, not whole evenings at a time. She has said they ARE making progress. Jeez.


She says she has never left the dog alone. She has been working on it for over a year!


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Apologies for the rather excessive use of italics and colours.... I tried to be 'designer' about it but it looks pretty poor for someone who stares at typefaces all day. But I feel like doing this :Banghead


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

I think Nettles has a fabulous job with Phoebe..and what may not come across in my earlier post is my concern is the behaviourist diagnosed a 12 week old puppy with separation anxiety.
I would be dubious of any behaviourist who diagnosis this in such a young dog.
I know Nettles you are working with the behaviourist, but I am concerned you maybe being duped...anyone can call them self a behaviourist and do!
I hope for you and Phoebes sake I am wrong!

I think this is also what Blitz us trying to say.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Blitz said:


> I am going by what Nettles said. And sorry, she says that the pup has been like that since 8 weeks old. If that is true something has gone very very wrong in her upbringing. But again, how can she improve if she is never left alone. Though of course it is far too late to say that, the deed is done.


OMG how judgemental can you get. How do you know something has gone very wrong in her upbringing when you have never met her? A qualified behaviourist has so I think I'd prefer to trust her assessment of how to manage this case than a bunch of people on the internet. Not all behavioural issues are down to upbringing - some are just down to the personality and make up of the dog. That is like saying there are no bad dogs just bad owners when we all know there are plenty of dogs who have been brought up and socialised by the book yet still have problems. How very upset Nettles will be when she reads your comments  Still no credit given for working on the issues rather than rehoming the dog as many others do


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

lullabydream said:


> I think Nettles has a fabulous job with Phoebe..and what may not come across in my earlier post is my concern is the behaviourist diagnosed a 12 week old puppy with separation anxiety.
> I would be dubious of any behaviourist who diagnosis this in such a young dog.
> I know Nettles you are working with the behaviourist, but I am concerned you maybe being duped...anyone can call them self a behaviourist and do!
> I hope for you and Phoebes sake I am wrong!
> ...


I do see your point but this thread seems to be getting a bit bullish and out there is an upset human and their dog.

It might be more useful to share some SA tips from people who have worked with behaviourists then question the OP's judgement which seems a bit rude when we've never met them. Then Nettles can maybe think about these or talk to the behaviourist about tips and come back to PF feeling more empowered and supported.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I find it very strange that people think "SA" is made up and not something you can diagnose! Do they think it's also made up in people who suffer from it?


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

MollySmith said:


> If Nettles wasn't consulting a professional which I think she found via the recommendations here, then yes your advice maybe constructive but Nettles *is*. A _personal consultation_ as opposed to one via a forum _based on scant information_. C'mon, it's very bad form to speak about someone when they have answered all the protestations on the previous page and have said they wish to 'retire' the thread. You can clearly see from her last post she was upset so have some consideration and humanity here.
> 
> To repeat my earlier post...
> " I don't think for one second in reading any of @Nettles past threads that they would put their dog in any danger. Perhaps it's a contentious subject as fireworks can worry many owners and dogs but please *let's be nice, it would be horrible and terribly rude of the forum to put a new person off PF, especially one who has been so entertaining and positive as Nettles*.
> ...


Sorry didn't realise the behaviourist was a reputable one just when I read that was diagnosed at 12 weeks old you can see my confusion!


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

lullabydream said:


> Sorry didn't realise the behaviourist was a reputable one just when I read that was diagnosed at 12 weeks old you can see my confusion!


I think so, but my memory is a bit wobbly. But the point is that she is consulting someone who has met the dog. We haven't.

Trying to offer unwanted advice and diagnose on this thread is very dangerous and can only lead to upset. I think too many people are jumping to conclusions and reading between lines when the OP is clearly not here to answer those questions (which weren't actually the reason for her post...). It's all very messy and very silly. Typically PF really


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> If Nettles wasn't consulting a professional which I think she found via the recommendations here, then yes your advice maybe constructive but Nettles *is*. A _personal consultation_ as opposed to one via a forum _based on scant information_. C'mon, it's very bad form to speak about someone when they have answered all the protestations on the previous page and have said they wish to 'retire' the thread. You can clearly see from her last post she was upset so have some consideration and humanity here.
> 
> To repeat my earlier post...
> " I don't think for one second in reading any of @Nettles past threads that they would put their dog in any danger. Perhaps it's a contentious subject as fireworks can worry many owners and dogs but please *let's be nice, it would be horrible and terribly rude of the forum to put a new person off PF, especially one who has been so entertaining and positive as Nettles*.
> ...


Since you've decided to quote my posts - firstly where have I been unkind to Nettles or in any way said that she's not working on the SA?

I have also not offered advice on dealing with the SA so have no idea what you're referring to?

All I have said is the that fireworks are not an appropriate place to take dogs (which IMH & personal opinion they're not) nor is it feasible to not ever think you're going to need to leave a dog

My cats aren't bothered by fireworks in the slightest - they sit and watch them out the window , fascinated by them - I still wouldn't dream if taking them anywhere I knew there were going to be fireworks


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Meezey said:


> I find it very strange that people think "SA" is made up and not something you can diagnose! Do they think it's also made up in people who suffer from it?


Of course separation anxiety can be diagnosed but at 12 weeks old I would be slightly dubious but then I have had various extremes of puppies from hard to settle till a good few months old but I really wouldn't have classed it as separation anxiety that young, more shell shocked from leaving siblings, home, getting used to surroundings.

After having a dog that began to have severe separation anxiety who did the toileting habits Nettles described due to a change of circumstance I do feel for her and Phoebe I just hoping her behaviourist is helping her.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Have you tried Selgian?

http://www.ceva.co.uk/Products/Products-list/Selgian
It's helped Alfie with his SA. It's not a cure but it's made the old one much less stressed all round


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Meezey said:


> I find it very strange that people think "SA" is made up and not something you can diagnose! Do they think it's also made up in people who suffer from it?


They are probably of the same opinion that people who suffer from agoraphobia, social anxiety, and similar anxiety disorders just need to 'get over it' and 'toughen up'  

I would say I'm surprised by Blitz's attitude here, but I'm not as her opinion is usually one of judgement in similar topics.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Lilylass said:


> Since you've decided to quote my posts - firstly where have I been unkind to Nettles or in any way said that she's not working on the SA?
> 
> All I have said is the that fireworks are not an appropriate place to take dogs (which IMH & personal opinion they're not) nor is it feasible to not ever think you're going to need to leave a dog
> 
> My cats aren't bothered by fireworks in the slightest - they sit and watch them out the windiw , fascinated by them - I still wouldn't dream if taking them anywhere I knew there were going to be fireworks


Do you take your cats out in public on a lead to parks, street walks, places you would normally take your dogs?


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Lilylass said:


> Since you've decided to quote my posts - firstly where have I been unkind to Nettles or in any way said that she's not working on the SA?
> 
> All I have said is the that fireworks are not an appropriate place to take dogs (which IMH & personal opinion they're not) nor is it feasible to not ever think you're going to need to leave a dog
> 
> My cats aren't bothered by fireworks in the slightest - they sit and watch them out the windiw , fascinated by them - I still wouldn't dream if taking them anywhere I knew there were going to be fireworks


It was a gentle, general reminder to everyone. I've been at my wits end and I just feel terribly sorry for the OP. I think fireworks is contentious yes, and was bound to....err.... cause sparks.... but I trust that generally based on the past posts by the OP that she was doing the right thing for her and her dog. Me yes, I'd stay indoors with Molly who isn't much bothered by them but that wasn't the question that she wanted help with.

If I could've been bothered I'd have quoted all the negative and off topic replies but three pages worth was enough.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

MollySmith said:


> I think so, but my memory is a bit wobbly. But the point is that she is consulting someone who has met the dog. We haven't.
> 
> Trying to offer unwanted advice and diagnose on this thread is very dangerous and can only lead to upset. I think too many people are jumping to conclusions and reading between lines when the OP is clearly not here to answer those questions (which weren't actually the reason for her post...). It's all very messy and very silly. Typically PF really


I just am worried for them both, not saying anything with malice, I just think 12 weeks is mighty early to be diagnosed in my opinionand I have dealt with a behaviourist via my vets for separation anxiety in my old dog Jasper. However, I can open my local newspaper and there are several 'behaviourists' not one mentioning any type of qualification, but all have a fancy web site and promise the earth...for a hefty sum.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Dogloverlou said:


> My Ty has SA @Nettles so I totally sympathise. His doesn't result in destructive behaviour or messing inside the house, but he whines and howls and obviously I can't leave him to do so with adjoining neighbours so he pretty much accompanies me everywhere too. I went training with Cash today and Ty was left in the car...whining the entire time might I add. But generally he's happy to be left in the car and knows the routine pretty well. It is a tie in some instances such as wanting to go out with family or whatever, and I have to arrange for someone to come look after him or drop him off at my mum's. But in the most part it's not really affected my life that much and I've been able to work around his issues. Unlike yourself I never really tackled his SA so it's as much my own fault probably. The only time he's left now, which I've SLOWLY, slowly, built up to is taking Cash out for a 20 min walk in the evenings ( and sometimes in the mornings too I'll risk leaving him for slightly longer ). I'm pretty certain Ty doesn't make a lot of noise during these times, and my elderly neighbour always tells me she wouldn't know I have dogs as they're so quiet, so as long as she keeps saying that I guess I'm ok doing what we're doing
> 
> But I agree with those saying stuff what others think, family or not. She's YOUR dog, it's YOUR life and you do want you want and what you know is in Phoebe's best interests.


I think that you make a good point - adaptability. A bit like reactive dogs like Molls and the beautiful, impulsive Cash  - we train and make small steps forward, sometimes backwards but we're always learning. I am sure that with SA one does the same. We know our dogs. And just as Molly brings rewards in being awesome, so does Ty in being just as awesome which makes up for the pants times.

You do know he's saying 'I'm tooooo gorgeous to be left alone, there's that mad woman from Cambridge and her lunatic dog who are obsessed by me'?


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

lullabydream said:


> I just am worried for them both, not saying anything with malice, I just think 12 weeks is mighty early to be diagnosed in my opinionand I have dealt with a behaviourist via my vets for separation anxiety in my old dog Jasper. However, I can open my local newspaper and there are several 'behaviourists' not one mentioning any type of qualification, but all have a fancy web site and promise the earth...for a hefty sum.


Yup, I understand what you mean, I've met one that uses shock collars but I got the impression very early on that Nettles is a very astute owner


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

MollySmith said:


> Yup, I understand what you mean, I've met one that uses shock collars but I got the impression very early on that Nettles is a very astute owner


So did I, but they are 'sly crafty and devious' and can fool many people...dare I say it (tin hat at the ready) bit like some byb!


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

MollySmith said:


> I think that you make a good point - adaptability. A bit like reactive dogs like Molls and the impulsive Cash  - we train and make small steps forward, sometimes backwards but we're always learning. I am sure that with SA one does the same. We know our dogs. And just as Molly brings rewards in being awesome, so does Ty in being just as awesome which makes up for the pants times.
> 
> You do know he's saying 'I'm tooooo gorgeous to be left alone, there's that mad woman from Cambridge and her lunatic dog who are obsessed by me'?


Exactly. It's a constant learning curve, and seeing even small improvements means you're on the right track - as @Nettles is doing.

Ty would be more than happy for someone to be obsessed by him  Missy & Cash always hog the limelight


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> It was a gentle, general reminder to everyone. I've been at my wits end and I just feel terribly sorry for the OP. I think fireworks is contentious yes, and was bound to....err.... cause sparks.... but I trust that generally based on the past posts by the OP that she was doing the right thing for her and her dog. Me yes, I'd stay indoors with Molly who isn't much bothered by them but that wasn't the question that she wanted help with.
> 
> If I could've been bothered I'd have quoted all the negative and off topic replies but three pages worth was enough.


If it was a gentle reminder to everyone I'm afraid I missed that as it seemed to only be certain peoples posts that were quoted

Also I can only go on the information in the op - I don't know the history and if the relevant threads aren't quoted so that those who may not have seen them can read them, then that's what will happen

As @Blitz has said, if she had SA when she arrived @ 8 weeks something terrible must've happened when she was still with the breeder


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Blitz said:


> . It can be a pain having a dog that becomes destructive and howls or barks the whole time *but it is not an illness for heavens sake*.


Indeed it is. SA is as much an illness as depression or other mental illness is in *any* species. Mental illness is real. I'm sure it is misdiagnosed at times, but Separation Anxiety in dogs _*is*_ an illness.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Meezey said:


> Do you take your cats out in public on a lead to parks, street walks, places you would normally take your dogs?


Why not - many people do?


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## Mr N (Nov 22, 2015)

I'm Nettles OH and generally read through the forum as she's told me there's been some great advice but finally signed up tonight to clarify some things. 
Nettles wasn't looking for opinions on taking Phoebe to a firework display. We wanted to go and had no one that could look after her early evening. My 6yr old autistic nephew was there and if it was a safe enough for him I'm damn sure it was safe for Phoebe. 
People have no idea what living with Phoebes SA is like (including my family who think we coddle her). She gets so stressed she's unable to control bodily functions and would be likely to hurt herself through panic if we leave her for a significant amount of time. I'm not willing to take the risk of coming home to a hurt dog when it can be worked on gradually and unnecessary injuries avoided. 
Speaking of which someone (can't remember who and not going back to see) said she'd never been left. She is left on her own for a few minutes at a time and we are gradually building it up. Yes it's slightly inconvenient now but I'd rather have that inconvenience now and reap the benefits of a well adjusted and happier dog later. 
She was left with another family member later that night while we went for dinner (my nephews and my birthdays are coming up) but my OH couldn't even enjoy that break due to being upset from earlier (some people here have not helped for that feeling to subside). 
So there you go as introduction I've come on here and sounded like a ranting lunatic (I promise I'm normally very easy going). 
On a slightly better note - thank you so much to the people that have genuinely shown concern or compassion. Sometimes people don't need "advice" but just a sympathetic ear. There are a couple of people I know have PM'd her and you have no idea how much I appreciate that never mind my OH.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Lilylass said:


> If it was a gentle reminder to everyone I'm afraid I missed that as it seemed to only be certain peoples posts that were quoted
> 
> Also I can only go on the information in the op - I don't know the history and if the relevant threads aren't quoted so that those who may not have seen them can read them, then that's what will happen
> 
> *As @Blitz has said, if she had SA when she arrived @ 8 weeks something terrible must've happened when she was still with the breeder*


Not necessarily, no. That same opinion is also assumed about those of us with reactive/DA dogs, that we as owners have somehow not socialised/trained/handled them correctly as pups and therefore have 'allowed' the behaviour to develop. The amount of times I've heard 'was she not socialised properly as a puppy' in response to my girl's behaviour is insane! As it happens, yes she was. But sometimes a puppy can be predisposed to being more stressy/anxious or otherwise 'issuey' and sometimes you have to accept a dog's genetic make-up and try the best you can by that dog. Not all behaviour is as a result of bad upbringing.


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

Welcome to the forum, Mr Nettles! I hope you stick around, and I hope Nettles is feeling better soon x


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Dogloverlou said:


> Not necessarily, no. That same opinion is also assumed about those of us with reactive/DA dogs, that we as owners have somehow not socialised/trained/handled them correctly as pups and therefore have 'allowed' the behaviour to develop. The amount of times I've heard 'was she not socialised properly as a puppy' in response to my girl's behaviour is insane! As it happens, yes she was. But sometimes a puppy can be predisposed to being more stressy/anxious or otherwise 'issuey' and sometimes you have to accept a dog's genetic make-up and try the best you can by that dog. Not all behaviour is as a result of bad upbringing.


I have in no way implied that its been anything that Nettles has done (or you in the case of your dogs socialisation) but they aren't born with these issues - yes maybe they csn be more predisposed to things developing but something has to happen to cause them somewhere

Bowing out as otherwise I'll not get up for work ....


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Mr N said:


> I'm Nettles OH and generally read through the forum as she's told me there's been some great advice but finally signed up tonight to clarify some things.
> Nettles wasn't looking for opinions on taking Phoebe to a firework display. We wanted to go and had no one that could look after her early evening. My 6yr old autistic nephew was there and if it was a safe enough for him I'm damn sure it was safe for Phoebe.
> People have no idea what living with Phoebes SA is like (including my family who think we coddle her). She gets so stressed she's unable to control bodily functions and would be likely to hurt herself through panic if we leave her for a significant amount of time. I'm not willing to take the risk of coming home to a hurt dog when it can be worked on gradually and unnecessary injuries avoided.
> Speaking of which someone (can't remember who and not going back to see) said she'd never been left. She is left on her own for a few minutes at a time and we are gradually building it up. Yes it's slightly inconvenient now but I'd rather have that inconvenience now and reap the benefits of a well adjusted and happier dog later.
> ...


Give her and Phoebe a huge hug and I'm so sorry that she's felt upset by PF. I hope she feels able to come back when she's ready as I have really enjoyed her posts. And good for you for taking the time and the care to explain a little more about your lovely dog. She's welcome to pm anytime.


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## Mr N (Nov 22, 2015)

Fluffster said:


> Welcome to the forum, Mr Nettles! I hope you stick around, and I hope Nettles is feeling better soon x


Thanks! I'm sure I'll probably go back to lurking in the background checking up on which posts my OH is involved in


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## Mr N (Nov 22, 2015)

MollySmith said:


> Give her and Phoebe a huge hug and I'm so sorry that she's felt upset by PF. I hope she feels able to come back when she's ready as I have really enjoyed her posts. And good for you for taking the time and the care to explain a little more about your lovely dog. She's welcome to pm anytime.


Thanks you for that. Nettles is currently wandering round the house on the phone and I've told her to stay off here tonight (not that she'll listen to me!) but I'm sure she'll be back on with her usual sarcasm intact soon enough. Phoebe on the other hand is currently asleep on my feet preventing me from making it to the fridge!


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Welcome @Mr N.

You both just keep doing what you're doing and ignore the negativity, as at the end of the day Phoebe is your dog and you know her best. Sounds to me like she has very understanding, patient and dedicated owners. What more could a dog possibly ask for?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Lilylass said:


> Why not - many people do?


Do you though?


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## Mr N (Nov 22, 2015)

Dogloverlou said:


> Welcome @Mr N.
> 
> You both just keep doing what you're doing and ignore the negativity, as at the end of the day Phoebe is your dog and you know her best. Sounds to me like she has very understanding, patient and dedicated owners. What more could a dog possibly ask for?


Thank you. I can generally shrug off most things as I'm of the opinion that if I feel my OH and me and our animals are happy then we can't be doing to badly but this really got to my OH and I felt some of the comments here were doing her more harm than good. I think people forget your replying to a human being sometimes. Hopefully I didn't sound like a complete ranting loony


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Mr N said:


> Thank you. I can generally shrug off most things as I'm of the opinion that if I feel my OH and me and our animals are happy then we can't be doing to badly but this really got to my OH and I felt some of the comments here were doing her more harm than good. I think people forget your replying to a human being sometimes. *Hopefully I didn't sound like a complete ranting loony*


No more than me, and they should be used to it by now  And I think a few comments were borderline too.


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## Mr N (Nov 22, 2015)

MollySmith said:


> No more than me, and they should be used to it by now  And I think a few comments were borderline too.


I had a lot stronger word than 'borderline' for some of the comments but don't want thrown off a forum in record time!


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Mr N said:


> I had a lot stronger word than 'borderline' for some of the comments but don't want thrown off a forum in record time!


It's rather amazing what swearage one can get away with, but quite I agree.

It would be very nice if a few people said sorry, if not for their beliefs but for tone and delivery or at least acknowledged that there is a human being reading their words and reconsider their posting style. I think it's cold enough for hell to freeze over and I'm therefore allowed this utopian dream.


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## Charity (Apr 17, 2013)

Well done Mr Nettles for coming on and supporting Nettles. With you all the way.


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## Mr N (Nov 22, 2015)

MollySmith said:


> It's rather amazing what swearage one can get away with, but quite I agree.
> 
> It would be very nice if a few people said sorry, if not for their beliefs but for tone and delivery or at least acknowledged that there is a human being reading their words and reconsider their posting style. I think it's cold enough for hell to freeze over and I'm therefore allowed this utopian dream.


I'll not push my luck by swearing just yet  I honestly don't think some people really think that their words will upset someone. If you can take people talking to you a certain way good for you but you should still understand you might upset someone else. I'm wary of saying too much in case I rant again or my OH kicks my ass for saying anything


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

@Nettles Please don't let any of the "naysayers" comments get to you.
They haven't met your girl so have zero knowledge of what is actually going on. You have the help of a professional who has met her and knows what is going on, which is more than some would do.
Keep your chin up chick


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## Mr N (Nov 22, 2015)

Charity said:


> Well done Mr Nettles for coming on and supporting Nettles. With you all the way.


Thanks! Like I said I'm normally very laid back and wouldn't take things too much too heart but felt I needed to clarify some things. 
Not entirely sure I picked the right nickname on here if I'm going to be 'Mr Nettles'...lol


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I'd tell her to stick to fingers up! Honestly some of the comments are laughable! You both know your girl better than anyone on the forum, from Nettles post you are both working hard with her! Your life your dog  You are doing right by her, and working with her, some of those commenting could learn a lot from you both about dog behaviour and training 

So people just live to be melters  Irony of it is those being gobshites on the thread near fall over themselves to tell others how rude they are !!!


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## Mr N (Nov 22, 2015)

Meezey said:


> I'd tell her to stick to fingers up! Honestly some of the comments are laughable! You both know your girl better than anyone on the forum, from Nettles post you are both working hard with her! Your life your dog  You are doing right by her, and working with her, some of those commenting could learn a lot from you both about dog behaviour and training
> 
> So people just live to be melters  Irony of it is those being gobshites on the thread near fall over themselves to tell others how rude they are !!!


She normally would and is usually stronger than even I give her credit for but this was just one of those times that something upset her more than usual. Some of the comments have been fantastic and advice she's received before had been spot on but some of what was being said here was vile in my opinion and I couldn't let it lie. 
Though yay me everyone's been nice to me so far which is nice considering my OH always says strangers prob think I want to mug them...


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## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

if someone posted about such severe SA asking for help, they'd get told to find a behaviourist & not to leave the dog for a period of time where the dog gets stressed and the general 'rule' being - build up the length of time. 
OP is doing all those things... Yet gets some, or what seem to be, crappy responses. 
 

@Nettles , phoebe is so lucky to have such a dedicated owner between you and your OH, well done  I bet it's so hard, I can't even imagine but you sound like you have a plan and it's just a matter of time & patience before it all pays off, I wish you the best of luck. X


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## Mr N (Nov 22, 2015)

Oh no I've been rumbled. Nettles just walked past me (still on the phone) and mouthed "I'm going to kill you"


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Mr N said:


> Nettles wasn't looking for opinions on taking Phoebe to a firework display.


While I am in Nettles' corner on this, you need to realize that when one posts on a forum such as this, regardless of what one is "looking for", what one gets is opinions.



Lilylass said:


> but they aren't born with these issues


I do not agree. Some are born with these issues.


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## Mr N (Nov 22, 2015)

lorilu said:


> While I am in Nettles' corner on this, you need to realize that when one posts on a forum such as this, regardless of what one is "looking for", what one gets is opinions


Sorry that was my bad wording. All I meant by that was the fireworks show wasn't the issue. We were happy with our decision to take her there. Some seemed to miss the point of the original post. I fully understand that a forum is there for discussion and opinions will be shared. My problem was the way some expressed those opinions to someone who was clearly already upset. I'm aware I sound confrontational now but really am just trying to clarify what I meant.


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## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

Hello and welcome to the forum Mr Nettles, I just had to say that I think your support of your OH is very nice to see, It is very hard to watch when someone you care about who is already feeling very low and disheartened made even worse by unthinking people but most OH's would not think to take the time to come on and support them in the way that you have good for you, well done


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## Mr N (Nov 22, 2015)

Rosie64 said:


> Hello and welcome to the forum Mr Nettles, I just had to say that I think your support of your OH is very nice to see, It is very hard to watch when someone you care about who is already feeling very low and disheartened made even worse by unthinking people but most OH's would not think to take the time to come on and support them in the way that you have good for you, well done


Thanks though I have a feeling that she's going to throttle me for embarrassing her


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Mr N said:


> Sorry that was my bad wording. All I meant by that was the fireworks show wasn't the issue. We were happy with our decision to take her there. Some seemed to miss the point of the original post. I fully understand that a forum is there for discussion and opinions will be shared. My problem was the way some expressed those opinions to someone who was clearly already upset. I'm aware I sound confrontational now but really am just trying to clarify what I meant.


I do know what you meant and am in full sympathy. But it doesn't matter. When you (general you) post on this forum (or any forum), you expose yourself to whomever and whatever. Threads never go the way one expects them to go. It's just the way it is in the forum world. : )


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## Mr N (Nov 22, 2015)

lorilu said:


> I do know what you meant and am in full sympathy. But it doesn't matter. When you (general you) post on this forum (or any forum), you expose yourself to whomever and whatever. Threads never go the way one expects them to go. It's just the way it is in the forum world. : )


I understand that fully and you're right you can't expect the forum to go the way you want. I'm a member of some so called professional IT forums and you wouldn't believe the abuse that goes on, on some of them. I was annoyed for my OH and probably didn't express myself properly.


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## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

Mr N said:


> Thanks though I have a feeling that she's going to throttle me for embarrassing her


I can't see that you have emmbarassed her just supported her as any good OH should do ( hope she see's it that way too



lorilu said:


> Threads never go the way one expects them to go. It's just the way it is in the forum world. : )


Thats all well and good we all know the risks we take but when it is blatentley obvious that the poster is already very upset and feeling at a low ebb there is no reason to be quite as blunt in those responses IMO


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Mr N said:


> I understand that fully and you're right you can't expect the forum to go the way you want. I'm a member of some so called professional IT forums and you wouldn't believe the abuse that goes on, on some of them. I was annoyed for my OH and probably didn't express myself properly.


Oh well. Really, you have just as much 'right' to have your say on this thread as anyone else. So I'm sorry (sincere apology) if it seemed I was giving you a hard time. Sometimes it's difficult to accept what happens when you post a thread hoping for a certain type of feed back and it all goes awry. After a while, ideally, one learns to take what they like, and what is helpful to them, and ignore the rest. "Ideally" : )


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## Mr N (Nov 22, 2015)

Rosie64 said:


> I can't see that you have emmbarassed her just supported her as any good OH should do ( hope she see's it that way too


Thanks. I'll try and point out your comment when she hits me with my iPad


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## Mr N (Nov 22, 2015)

lorilu said:


> Oh well. Really, you have just as much 'right' to have your say on this thread as anyone else. So I'm sorry if it seemed I was giving you a hard time. Sometimes it's difficult to accept what happens when you post a thread hoping for a certain type of feed back and it all goes awry. After a while, ideally, one learns to take what they like, and what is helpful to them, and ignore the rest. "Ideally" : )


No I don't feel you've given me a hard time and you were absolutely right that things never go the way you want / expect on a public forum. It's very easy to take text the wrong way but I felt strongly enough that some people needed reminded that there is a human being on the receiving end.


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## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

Mr N said:


> Thanks. I'll try and point out your comment when she hits me with my iPad


Hopefully it won't come to that but if it does :Nurse:Nurse:Nurse lol


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Nettles said:


> We don't know what caused the SA as she has always had it from we got her at 8 weeks old and diagnosed at 12 weeks. She's from a litter of 10 and although we don't know all the pups, we know 5 of them and she's the only one with SA. It's all things we have investigated with her behaviourist.
> I disagree though that it's inevitable that she'll have to be left alone at some stage. She'll never be left alone until she's comfortable with it, as advised by her behaviourist.


I have to say I would maybe also say or at least think something about a dog at a firework display as I do not believe it is the best place for them, even if they are not scared.
There are dangerous explosives around, if something happens that they get scared and break away, then you have a potentially awful situation on your hands. So for me any dog being there is a no no for safety.

It is inevitable though, or quite likely.
Things happen, what if one of you was ill or sick and needed hospital treatment and the other one had to go to see them/support them and help with treatment.
There is no way anyone can ever say their dog will never be left, it is just not possible.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Lilylass said:


> If it was a gentle reminder to everyone I'm afraid I missed that as it seemed to only be certain peoples posts that were quoted
> 
> Also I can only go on the information in the op - I don't know the history and if the relevant threads aren't quoted so that those who may not have seen them can read them, then that's what will happen
> 
> As @Blitz has said, if she had SA when she arrived @ 8 weeks* something terrible must've happened when she was still with the breeder*


Not quite she said "If that is true something has gone very very wrong in her upbringing" which is rather harsh.


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## Guest (Nov 23, 2015)

Well I'm a total hypocrite because despite the fact that I own a dog who would thoroughly enjoy a fireworks display and really loves things like busy parades, lots of people bumping in to him, loud motors and music, I'm afraid if I saw a dog at a fireworks display I too would think "what are those owners thinking." 
Basically @Nettles, what others think is their business, not yours. Try not to worry about it. Easier said than done, I know... But really, if someone like me with a dog who would be totally fine at a fireworks display is going to be judgemental about it, there really is no hope of not having at least someone judge you if you take your dog to things like this. 

And speaking of none of my business... I too find it odd (not unbelievable, just unusual) that a 12 week old pup could be diagnosed with SA. 
SA is for sure a real disorder, but it's also a very over diagnosed disorder that seems to be the current fad among behaviorists. To be clear, I'm not doubting you and what you're dealing with, but I get where some of the skepticism comes from.

Honestly, if it is serious enough that it was diagnosed at 12 weeks and you've been working on it this long and you still can't leave her at all, I'd be looking in to a veterinary behaviorist who can prescribe medications. Dogs who are this bad off are really suffering, and the risk/reward of a psychiatric drug really pulls towards the reward side when things get to this point. 
I'm in no way trying to tell you that what you're already doing isn't good, I'm just speaking out of concern for you and your dog. It can't be nice for you to try to juggle family outings with dealing with the dog, and it can't be nice for the dog to not be able to ever relax unless you're near.

@lemmsy's idea of a petsitter was one I was going to suggest too. 
Another idea is to see how she does with another dog. Since @Meezey is close, it may be worth seeing what she does if left with a dog (or several) who don't stress. If you see a major improvement that might be another thing to consider, using a stooge dog to help her get practice with being left and not fretting.

We took in a dog who had horrible SA, and he was a big boy who chewed his way out of crates and a chain-link fenced pen before we got him. He destroyed a solid wooden door with us, and on another occasion broke through a glass window (that was fun to come home to....).
Then we took in my friend's malamute while she found a place that allowed pets. The malamute was a totally confident dog and within a few weeks the other dog's SA had improved dramatically. Within a year there was no trace of it, and he could be left alone without the malamute either. He was fine. So there is hope


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

If you know you're doing right by your dog don't worry about it. I've had a "dogs die in hot cars" note shoved on my car before now, whilst I'd nipped into a pet shop to buy a replacement bootie for my GSD. As he had a degenerative disease he lost feeling in his back feet, and dragged his toenails until they bled if he walked on concrete pavements without his booties. We were on holiday, and he'd managed to lose one in woodland when we were nearly back at the car. We'd only parked up in a town to find a petshop that sold booties, and the car was in a shaded multistorey car park. In February! ( he came with us on our Valentine's getaway break). So he'd come on our couples romantic break with us, had a medical problem with walking on concrete pavements, was asleep in his own car in a cool multistorey carpark in February, and someone decided to leave a snide note which was irrelevant to the situation.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

We also had the slightly sympathetic, slightly patronising " I suppose the animals are your children" comments. Nobody's business but our own, so we never replied. But it came as a bit of a shock when after 5 years of marriage we announced we were expecting our first child. Even more shockingly, we didn't rehome our GSDs ( our first boy was 7, and we'd just had another teenage rescue a few weeks). I even kept the cats!


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## Royoyo (Feb 21, 2013)

Nettles said:


> I posted a very similar thread to this just a few days ago, but from the opposite side of the fence
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/feeling-unwelcome.415404/
> 
> ...


It's funny how you were saying this the other day nettles but get your OH to join when you don't get the replies you want ha

In my opinion animals should not be at firework displays but like someone else mentioned earlier that's just what I have always been taught.


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## Mr N (Nov 22, 2015)

Royoyo said:


> It's funny how you were saying this the other day nettles but get your OH to join when you don't get the replies you want ha
> 
> In my opinion animals should not be at firework displays but like someone else mentioned earlier that's just what I have always been taught.


Excuse me but she didn't 'get' me to do anything. I'm quite capable of independent thought 
And as previously stated opions on our pup being at fireworks wasn't the point. The reason I joined and spoke up was because people didn't seem to get the point of the original post...


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## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

Royoyo said:


> It's funny how you were saying this the other day nettles but get your OH to join when you don't get the replies you want ha


That remark was totally unwarranted IMO how on earth can you deem to know what Nettles did or didn't do in the privacy of her own home and from the other end of a computer


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## Mr N (Nov 22, 2015)

Rosie64 said:


> That remark was totally unwarranted IMO how on earth can you deem to know what Nettles did or didn't do in the privacy of her own home and from the other end of a computer


Perhaps if they'd bothered to read more than my original post they could've guessed she knew nothing about me signing up to the site...


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Haven't read all the replies, but I can see both sides...

I'm not going to point fingers or "have a go" at the OP for her decisions - after all, she knows her dog best.

Milly had SA while she settled in, and I remember all too well the anxiety _I_ felt when we were separated - "What has she done?" "Has she spent all the time howling?" "Have the neighbours heard her?" "Have they reported me?" "Is Milly OK?" "I need to get back!" So I do get it, but personally, I couldn't have a dog that could never be away from me. I NEED a break from them, because, as much as I love them both, they'd drive me round the twist if I was with them 24/7, and while it might not be coming across in the replies, I wonder if that's what those who are ... "questioning" @Nettles are thinking. Luckily Milly soon settled down and for the most part, is fine being left alone/with Max.

Fireworks displays ... My dogs are usually fine with them, but I'm personally another one who wouldn't take them to a display, even if they were fine with all that such displays entail. People (in the replies that I have read) have compared them to gun/shoot days, but I don't have any experience of them with which to make an informed decision... However, the potential risk of a stray firework causing harm, whilst much reduced ay an organised display, would still cause me to think twice... I would also worry about the "liability" factor should someone who maybe doesn't like dogs decides that mine had frightened/attacked them, even if they hadn't. Maybe a dog HAD attacked them but the only profile they remember, is yours. Maybe they simply don't like dogs and are nasty enough to "fake" an attack. People are vile like that at times.

I would imagine the potential for that at gun days are somewhat reduced because presumably, those involved in such displays are more accustomed to dogs being around and/or reading their body language.

Regarding family's opinions... Well, they don't have to live with the fallout or the aftermath if/when you @Nettles , leave the dog alone. They're not the ones trying to appease the neighbours, worrying about the council being involved or cleaning the floors, or throwing away another chewed furniture item, or rushing Phoebe to the vets because this time, she's caused herself an injury.

Everyone's an expert when they're not living with it.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Forgot to mention, one thing I have to agree with, is that it is a little naive to assume you will never have to leave Phoebe in the house alone.

I never thought for a second that I would have to drop everything and run, either, but then my mam was diagnosed with heart failure, and if she rings me, no matter what time of the night/day it is, I'll drop everything and run! The dogs simply HAVE to deal with that, so while I know you said you're working with a behaviourist, I would personally question whether the advice to simply never leave Phoebe alone at all while you build up the time slowly, is the best...

Then again, I live alone so if I have to rush out, the dogs are left alone by default.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

I know I said I wasn't discussing it any further tonight but it's after midnight so technically it's tomorrow.
First of all, I certainly did not "get" my OH to join. I had no idea he had joined until someone pm'd me.
I've been upset about things long before I posted this thread so the comments on here are not what has upset me. I stand by what I've said many times, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I still don't feel like I've been picked on or bullied for being a newbie, contrary to what has just been suggested by someone. I still value the advice I'm given and respect and value a lot of what has been said. Some, not so much, but they're still entitled to give their opinion no matter how ridiculous I think it is.
Regarding the dangers of the fireworks. I thought it was apparent from the picture I posted, but perhaps not.. We were standing in a deserted, private car park, 15 minutes walk away from the safety barriers surrounding the display. We were not going to be hit by a firework. A total of 6/7 people passed us and we were at least 2-3 minutes away from the crowds of people. I understand that even if safety wasn't an issue, some people still don't feel it's appropriate for a dog and that's fair enough, it's a public forum and if I wasn't prepared for the replies, I most certainly would not have posted.
I do have to admit, being scoffed at and asked "do neither of you work?" was without a doubt, disgusting and below the belt and certainly nobodies business, but for whoever it was that felt it was their business to ask, yes we both work. My OH has a full time job but also has the perks of working from home a few days a week. I'm self employed and work from home. Would you like our annual income? Job descriptions? Perhaps I could PM you a copy of our CV's to satisfy your curiosity?

Regarding Phoebes SA. Until you have been in a position of caring for a dog with severe SA, then you have absolutely no idea what it's like. It is not simply "a dog who gets stressed when left alone." It is truly horrendous. I would have said I would invite anyone who doubts it to come here and witness it for yourself but I wouldn't allow her to get into that state just to prove a point. And anyone who thinks the correct thing to do is to leave her and let her deal with it.. well I have no words for you.

Her SA was initially diagnosed by her vet at 12 weeks and she was referred to their independent behaviourist who also diagnosed SA at 14 weeks after assessing her under different scenarios. We were told at the time it was very early to be giving a diagnosis of SA but due to the severity of her behaviour, both the vet and behaviourist agreed it was appropriate. Some people are worried that perhaps we are being "duped" by the behaviourist. Like I've said, I trust her 100% and without her help so far, we wouldn't have made the progress we have. While it may not seem like much progress to some people on here who have never met us or who I've never discussed her SA with, I can assure everyone, the improvements so far have been huge. We are following an action plan set out by the behaviourist which involves not leaving Phoebe long enough to get into a complete state of panic. This very same advice is actually given in the SA sticky on this forum so I don't understand why some people are finding it so difficult comprehend.
Yes, I said she was with me 24/7. That is a well known figure of speech. Some people understood that, obviously some did not. I'll rephrase it for clarification. On a usual day, Phoebe is with one of us for approx 23hrs45mins/7 days a week. The time is being gradually increased at a pace she is comfortable with, as advised by a professional who has been assessing her and supporting us since she was 8 weeks old. She is now 8 months old. We have discussed prescription medication with the vet and behaviourist but we all agree that at the minute, while she's still making improvements (albeit slowly) and her anxiety is being carefully controlled, it's not at that stage of medication yet. If it gets to a point where no improvements are being made and we reach a stalemate with her progress, then prescribed medication will certainly be an option.
We can leave her with other people and yes she still gets a bit anxious when we first leave, but no more so than any other anxious puppy. Certainly not on the same scale as when she's left alone. She actually stayed with my cousin for 2 hours last night while we went to a birthday dinner and she was absolutely fine. The reason we don't do this very often (in fact, hardly ever) is because she is VERY hard work, and as she is our responsibility, it's not fair to put that upon someone else to cope with on a regular basis. We also have some very understanding family members who have actually offered to look after her when needed and we are very lucky to be able to call upon any of them at any stage of the day or night should an emergency situation arise where both of us need to attend.

For those who have said they just wouldn't put up with a dog who couldn't be left on their own.. Well the two options are leaving her alone to hurt herself, end up at the vets needing treatment for her injuries on a regular basis and become so stressed that it potentially damages her in the long term, or giving her up and rehome her for someone else to deal with her problems. Neither of those are an option for us I'm afraid.

I'm sorry this post has been so long winded and I can't even be bothered to read over it and check my spelling so I also apologise for that too.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Thank you Nettles for clarifying after listening to some Behaviourists advice here by other people I do get sceptical especially when its clear many people are being duped.
Your relationship with Phoebe shines through on every post you make, hence my earlier post what I have said is without malice. I really didn't want you to be duped..and if you had we would all be here to help!

I would say I was lucky with my dogs SA since it developed when he was older due to change in circumstance and basically we gave him his puppy comforts which was his crate, and the back room for the crate with the tiniest window going with no distractions. Still took time, still had the mess to clean up from a fully house trained dog, sometimes when I nipped to the toilet. So good look because you will get there.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

melannie said:


> crate obviously isn't supposed to be used for a dog that has bad separation anxiety as we all know, but if push comes to shove then sometimes, maybe just sometimes when all else is lost we have to take drastic steps, its either that or don't leave the house at all and stay with the dog 24/7 and have groceries delivered etc


Unfortunately, a crate is not an option for some. I tried this with my Husky. He went completely crazy, bent all the bars and then proceeded to rip apart anything he could find once he was out. The level of stress he must have got himself to, and the possibility of seriously injuring himself made me promise never to do that again


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

The crate was my saviour, Jasper loved the crate when he was a puppy, re introduced that and it helped.

Initially I started off limiting his space, so instead of the whole downstairs he had to threat about whilst I was gone, or roam round we limit to kitchen and back room...then back room.

Crate training like a puppy, but we skipped steps. Time apart with see through barriers, with doors shut. Cannot remember exact process but it worked and never had a problem again.

It was just a change of circumstance that upskittled him totally, never had a problem as a pup so it can happen at any time. Before we got help, something's we did unintentionally hindered him such as allowing him the run of the house. OH thought he would love it because he can sleep on our bed, but dogs do not think like that!


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Charity said:


> I bet Nettles is thinking 'why did I add this thread?' as some people are taking the same attitude as the family she is frustrated with. If you have never had a dog who doesn't lead a normal dog's life and needs more than 100% support which affects your way of life, then, I'm sorry, you really have no idea. Some of you suggest just leaving her to it and she'll get over it. Phoebe has EXTREME separation anxiety, not just feeling a little nervous or being sick when her owners go out. Nettles is trying her utmost to help Phoebe and she says she is improving but it is obviously a long process. If you think how often most of us go out under normal circumstances, you can't call on family, friends or neighbours every five minutes, particularly if they aren't dog savvy or understand the problem. Also, sometimes the preparation needed or the after effects when you return, not to mention the worry while you're out, make it not worthwhile doing it the first place. We left our dog with friends one evening when we went out and, whilst she was fine while we were gone, she became a nightmare when our friends left, was totally hyper and wouldn't settle until the early hours of the morning which wasn't good for her with her health problems so we never did it again. You do what is best for your dog to keep things as stress free as possible, their needs always come before your own. No doubt I will get some flak now from people who disagree but some people give more commitment to their animals than others and I commend Nettles for all the efforts she is making for a dog she clearly loves and the time and commitment she is giving, especially as I know she would give anything for things to be different.


My dog behaviourist told me that, for dogs with extreme SA, to be left for any length of time time, regularly, could potentially give them a heart attack. This makes total sense, how stressed must you be to lose control of your bowels?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I would like to point out that I hope I made it clear that as far as the fireworks issue goes you know your dog and you made the choice. You must have known it was an unusual choice and you really should not get upset by someone saying something about it at the time. Though in your OP you did not even make it clear that you were not actually at the display so in that case I do wonder why a passer by made a remark.

As far as the not liking being left goes - and I seriously hate putting labels on things - it is far too late to just go out and leave her now. But it might have worked initially, who is to say. Not that I ever suggested you just go out and leave her but others did. I was not trying to upset you - I would seriously worry about you if you were someone I knew personally who was in that position though.

It might be worth trying leaving her with another dog. I had a rescue failed sheepdog who had spent her life chained up lying in her own mess. She would not settle in the house and was destructive, distressed and messed everywhere. We built her an outside kennel which helped enormously but she was very vocal and the neighbours were not amused. My sister had a dog that was very destructive in the house so I asked her to take the colllie and see how it panned out. Both dogs were happy being left from that day on. I also ran into problems with my current oldest dog when she was 6 months old and my old dog died very suddenly. She could not cope with being left at all though she had been perfect when with the older dog. We had to take her everywhere with us, she was fine in the car so could leave her in there if necessary. She even came with us when we were giving tourist carriage drives in town and was a huge hit. We were not prepared to never go out so she had to be left sometimes and she had to cope but after about 6 months all the stress went away and she was perfectly happy on her own - shortly afterwards we got a second dog mainly for her sake and neither of them have a problem except Candy still insists on sleeping with us.
So I do know what it is like - but I still stand by what I said in my earlier posts - without meaning to be at all hurtful - just giving my opinion based on experience and concern for you.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

SLB said:


> I feel your pain. I have one with bad SA.. however we have tried everything and we did find that him being in with the other dogs helps. He's not as settled as I'd like him, but he doesn't howl, bark or eat my door frames anymore. Not saying that getting another dog is the answer of course. It's just what worked in my case.


I got another dog, not to cure the SA, as that was never a given, but because he loves the company of other dogs so much, that weekends for him were a bit of a bore. Since she came into his life he is a new dog. He is so much calmer and happy just to go with the flow. Not once, since she arrived, have I found him pacing around or resource guarding against me, which he used to do quite a bit. Now he's happy to obey commands around the house and seems to be more than happy to trot off to his bed whenever we're home and she gives him a minute's peace.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Hope you are feeling better today @Nettles. What a lovely OH you have


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

I have a question for all the people doubting Nettles choice, do you walk your dogs in the countryside/near farmland as I know where I am during the winter months there are regular shoots near where I walk, in the spring and summer there are gas powered bird scarer that randomly bang (they make me jump out of my skin but luckily my dogs don't seemed bothered and they didn't bat an eyelid when the neighbours had fireworks a few weeks ago, so I am very lucky) but am I cruel or misguided walking them where there are random bangs and booms? One of the most popular fields for a quick walk round here is actually next to a factory that makes flares and they are set off regularly throughout the day as they are being tested, are all the people who walk their dogs there wrong too?

Anyhoo what I am trying to say is Nettles took a calculated risk knowing her dog and how her dog reacts and it appears to have worked out, but we all everyday take calculated risks when we walk our dogs as we cannot control things outside of our little protective bubble we build around ourselves and them.


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## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

Nettles said:


> Would you like our annual income? Job descriptions? Perhaps I could PM you a copy of our CV's to satisfy your curiosity?


Your OH did say you'd be back with sarcasm  that bit made me laugh  
Hope you got a good nights sleep and today is a new day  x


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

I hope you're feeling better today 

Freddie has been nervous since birth, he's been unsure of my brother since the day we brought him home - for no reason, and 10 years later it's still a big deal if he goes near him happily  
He also gets really stressed out if he's in a room with a closed door, which has got worse with age. It's something we're working on, but progress is very slow and I'm not going to stress him out for the sake of other people. 

It's easy to say how you should deal with something or how a dog should act, until you actually have dog who doesn't behave like you'd expect it to .

Regarding the fireworks - going by the photo you were probably further away from the display than if you were at home and your neighbours had fireworks in their garden, so it's not like you were at the front of a display next to a bonfire.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Nettles said:


> I know I said I wasn't discussing it any further tonight but it's after midnight so technically it's tomorrow.
> First of all, I certainly did not "get" my OH to join. I had no idea he had joined until someone pm'd me.
> I've been upset about things long before I posted this thread so the comments on here are not what has upset me. I stand by what I've said many times, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I still don't feel like I've been picked on or bullied for being a newbie, contrary to what has just been suggested by someone. I still value the advice I'm given and respect and value a lot of what has been said. Some, not so much, but they're still entitled to give their opinion no matter how ridiculous I think it is.
> Regarding the dangers of the fireworks. I thought it was apparent from the picture I posted, but perhaps not.. We were standing in a deserted, private car park, 15 minutes walk away from the safety barriers surrounding the display. We were not going to be hit by a firework. A total of 6/7 people passed us and we were at least 2-3 minutes away from the crowds of people. I understand that even if safety wasn't an issue, some people still don't feel it's appropriate for a dog and that's fair enough, it's a public forum and if I wasn't prepared for the replies, I most certainly would not have posted.


In this post your story about the display has changed completely from your opening post.
In your post you was at the display and standing slightly to the side from a crowd, now it is fifteen minutes walk away from a display.

You said that the couple walked behind you and said why would people bring a dog to a firework display as it is cruel, and your family member agreed, if it was in a car park fifteen walk away then you wasn't at one and could have been going somewhere else. 
Why would a couple even walk so closely behind you if you were in a private car park, let alone say it is cruel to bring them to a display, when you are not at a display? You're telling a different story now to your original one.

Anyway, best of luck with the SA, I agree with someone else, it may be worth looking into something different to break the pattern now, also some medication as for her it is no way to live and it is foolish to believe she will never ever be left for a minute and with you 24/7 as bumps come up in the road and you may need a hospital and she cannot go into the hospital.

To me you sound at your wits end with this issue and usually that doesn't help the matter, stress on you makes her more stressed. I personally feel you need a little break, even for a few hours to break thing up, try something relaxing or take something to calm you. If you are so stressed as you and your husband have said you cannot enjoy a meal, dogs pick up on all of this and it makes issues much worse.
For me, dogs issues can get to being so bad what is needed is a break to their pattern of behaviour in some way as they and you are stuck in it. usually that helps a lot of issues.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Well Nettles, I considered this as Muttly isn't fussed about fireworks. But, there were some very big ones this year (professional sounding ones in the wrong hands), that he didn't like. So decided against it. But sounds like Pheobe was fine and happy, so people need to keep their nose out!!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> In this post your story about the display has changed completely from your opening post.
> In your post you was at the display and standing slightly to the side from a crowd, now it is fifteen minutes walk away from a display.
> 
> You said that the couple walked behind you and said why would people bring a dog to a firework display as it is cruel, and your family member agreed, if it was in a car park fifteen walk away then you wasn't at one and could have been going somewhere else.
> ...


I do find it quite ironic someone is picking holes in someone, then telling them they need a break, maybe take your own advice and give the woman a break....

Just so everyone is clear for those concerned about hospitals and bumps in roads etc. Nettles is about 10 mins down the road from me, as I have said on here and in PM if she does hit a bump while working through this with her behaviorist she has me as back up, if I am not available she has my OH, if he's not available my sister would help, , she has said on numerous occasions she has friends and family to have the pup also so hope that helps everyone with their oh so heart felt concerns about Nettles and her OH's health and well being....


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Meezey said:


> I do find it quite ironic someone is picking holes in someone, then telling them they need a break, maybe take your own advice and give the woman a break....
> 
> Just so everyone is clear for those concerned about hospitals and bumps in roads etc. Nettles is about 10 mins down the road from me, as I have said on here and in PM if she does hit a bump while working through this with her behaviorist the, has me as back up, if I am not available she has my OH, if he's not available my sister would help, , she has said on numerous occasions she has friends and family to have, so hope that helps everyone with their oh so heart felt concerns about Nettles and her OH's health and well being....


Well I was under the impression if you post something on an open forum then other people can post their opinions on it, as you well know.

I haven't not given her a break, I have said nothing awful, just opinions, which is pretty much what a forum is about. People post and people post on that topic.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

@Nettles , I was just wondering, is Phoebe from a BYB/less than reputable breeder?

I don't mean to criticize, or blame, just wondering, if she has had severe SA from such a young age, if it could be related to poor breeding practices? In which case, you may always be fighting an uphill battle. 

Sincere apologies if I've got that wrong. It's just something that I think I remember from an earlier post.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> Well I was under the impression if you post something on an open forum then other people can post their opinions on it, as you well know.
> 
> I haven't not given her a break, I have said nothing awful, just opinions, which is pretty much what a forum is about. People post and people post on that topic.


Really a forum is about you picking holes in someone's "story" What does it matter if she was stood in the middle of a band parade next to a bonfire firing an RPG or stood in a field 10000's of miles away with both her and dog wearing cans? How is how she tells something relevant? Her dogs was fine....irrespective of how her story changed....


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

LinznMilly said:


> @Nettles , I was just wondering, is Phoebe from a BYB/less than reputable breeder?
> 
> I don't mean to criticize, or blame, just wondering, if she has had severe SA from such a young age, if it could be related to poor breeding practices? In which case, you may always be fighting an uphill battle.
> 
> Sincere apologies if I've got that wrong. It's just something that I think I remember from an earlier post.


Why does there have to be a reason, it could just be built into Phoebe's personality, it may just be who she is, sometimes there are no reasons, I'm sure Nettles has probably spent hours wondering why but she has a behaviourist working with her and apart from this one little 'quirk' Phoebe sound like a happy well loved dog.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Meezey said:


> Really a forum is about you picking holes in someone's "story" What does it matter if she was stood in the middle of a band parade next to a bonfire firing an RPG or stood in a field 10000's of miles away with both her and dog wearing cans? How is how she tells something relevant? Her dogs was fine....irrespective of how her story changed....


Throw it back to you then, a forum to you is picking on me for noticing the holes in someone's story then? It's not like you haven't done it over and over on the forum though.

It was an issue people picked up on, it isn't the safest place for a dog, so the passer by and the family member had a very valid point, then all of a sudden the story was completely different. I was not the only one who noticed the complete change of story. Of course how you tell something is relevant, if she was fifteen minutes away in a car park you wouldn't even take a passer by seriously as you would say I am not at a firework display.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Wow, I have finally got to the end of this, and must say, I'm thoroughly depressed at the tone some posters take. I really hope it made you feel good to lord it over the OP and make her feel even worse about herself.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I don't get the whole not the safest place to take a dog, what if a stray firework was to hit the dog argument. Any firework display I've been to over the years has been very well run and had "risk assessments" carried out, health & safety monitoring etc. Your dog is just as likely to be hit by a stray firework in its own back garden as it is attending an organised display. I usually have to pick up several fireworks from my back garden where random neighbours have been firing them off with no thought for where they might land. Pretty much everything we do with our dogs involves risk - walking down the pavement with the dog on a short lead - car could mount pavement and run you both down, letting your dog swim in the sea or a pond - dog could get caught up in something and drown, taking dog out in your car - you could be involved in an accident, working trials/agility/fly ball - dog could get injured. Eating food - dog could choke. I think we have to trust that the OP and her OH made their own risk assessment knowing their own dog as they do and no harm was done.

As to the SA I don't get why people keep going on about the OP having unrealistic expectations that the dog will never have to be left, that makes it sound like its their choice. @Nettles has repeatedly stated what help and advice she is getting and how she is following a programme drawn up by a behaviourist. Its fine to offer suggestions such as "have you tried this or have you thought about that" but the blame game is so out of order when the member is already doing all they can, has shown total commitment to the dog and not just dumped her on the nearest rescue like many others would have. Not quite sure how suggesting something has gone very wrong in the pups upbringing is showing concern for the OP's welfare either.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Blitz said:


> She says she has never left the dog alone. She has been working on it for over a year!


And this is exactly why I hope I never have to deal with separation anxiety. I know someone who's been working on the issue for 12 years and the dog STILL cannot be left long without becoming distressed. Even on medication. It's not just a bit of whining or barking or not liking to be left, the dog is in genuine distress and simply leaving him in that state is cruel. He's better than he was but still very distressed if left for long. Even successfully working through it is far from a quick thing though.

I wouldn't take a dog to a fireworks display personally, I don't think they're safe. I'd not be happy taking a child to one to be perfectly honest, seen too many things go wrong and too many idiots messing around to think they're safe. Sorry. But seriously, Nettle has said they're working with a behaviourist on the SA issues, why are people getting all hung up on the fact they can't leave their dog? They're trying to fix the problem, blaming them for Phoebe not being able to left seems pretty out of order to me.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

MontyMaude said:


> Why does there have to be a reason, it could just be built into Phoebe's personality, it may just be who she is, sometimes there are no reasons, I'm sure Nettles has probably spent hours wondering why but she has a behaviourist working with her and apart from this one little 'quirk' Phoebe sound like a happy well loved dog.


I'm no breeding expert, but I believe anxiety is a personality trait that could be passed on from parent to pup. Extreme SA in such a young pup is apparently rare. I really wasn't having a go at Nettles - or even Phoebe's breeder! Just wondering if that could be the cause of her anxiety. 

You know, I've so far refrained from saying this, but all those who are accusing us who aren't 110% behind Nettles and agree to varying degrees with her family - to her "supporters" (to use a label), we are "judgemental"... Some of those supporters really need to stand in front of the mirror and take a good hard look at themselves and read their own posts! Not everyone who doesn't 110% agree with @Nettles is having a go at her, or judging her! But some of her "supporters" are doing a damn fine job of judging the rest of us!!

Pot, kettle.

And since when has concern for a PF member been a bad thing @Meezey? ("Oh so concerned PF members" ring a bell?)


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> Throw it back to you then, a forum to you is picking on me for noticing the holes in someone's story then? It's not like you haven't done it over and over on the forum though.
> 
> y.


Picking on you? Really picking on you?  So you what to be able to pick holes in someones story and when someone mentions it, now you are being picked on?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

LinznMilly said:


> I'
> 
> And since when has concern for a PF member been a bad thing @Meezey? ("Oh so concerned PF members" ring a bell?)


What? Where have I said it's a bad thing? Do pray tell where?

Do you think someone picking holes in the distance someone is stood from a firework display is caring? Do you think someone poo pooing SA is caring, do you think someone blaming the SA on the OP is caring?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

LinznMilly said:


> I'm no breeding expert, but I believe anxiety is a personality trait that could be passed on from parent to pup. Extreme SA in such a young pup is apparently rare. I really wasn't having a go at Nettles - or even Phoebe's breeder! Just wondering if that could be the cause of her anxiety.
> 
> You know, I've so far refrained from saying this, but all those who are accusing us who aren't 110% behind Nettles and agree to varying degrees with her family - to her "supporters" (to use a label), we are "judgemental"... Some of those supporters really need to stand in front of the mirror and take a good hard look at themselves and read their own posts! Not everyone who doesn't 110% agree with @Nettles is having a go at her, or judging her! But some of her "supporters" are doing a damn fine job of judging the rest of us!!
> 
> ...


Guess I must be in the @Nettles supporters club then. Yay a new club to belong to . Its not the posters who aren't 110% in agreement with the OP that I have an issue with, more the ones who have jumped to conclusions and made judgements about her as if she chooses to have a dog with SA and is somehow responsible for it despite all the information being given repeatedly outlining the work they are doing. If someone with a reactive dog came on her and talked about how they have to avoid other dogs but with the help of a behaviourist, following an individual programme they are working through it and things are gradually improving would lots of people jump on that poster and suggest the reactivity is their fault, and ask who would want a dog they can't take near other dogs etc etc. I haven't seen a thread like that. I just don't understand why the "critics" are not giving the OP any credit for her dedication to her dog and for seeking appropriate veterinary and behavioural help and working through the issues at the dogs pace rather than seeking a quick fix or dumping the dog on someone else.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

I think it's time to let this thread die now tbh. I think it's clear that the OP was just having a rant and probably just wanted reassurance they were doing the right thing. 

I think people have made there points clear now and I don't think there is anything more that can be added.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Meezey said:


> What? Where have I said it's a bad thing? Do pray tell where?
> 
> Do you think someone picking holes in the distance someone is stood from a firework display is caring? Do you think someone poo pooing SA is caring, do you think someone blaming the SA on the OP is caring?


Well, I admit I have skim-read most of the thread because of the bickering and to-and-fro of some of the earlier posts, so I might have missed some of those who have poo-pooed SA, nor do I see where people have actually blamed the dog's SA on the OP herself, but others, like my own posts, actually were written with genuine concern for the OP and her dog, and frankly, the way that comment of yours was written, I interpreted as meaning that only those who agree with her way of handling an SA dog, are concerned for her. It just seemed like a snide dig at those of us who don't agree with or support the OP 100%. I apologise if I picked it up wrong.

However, my comment stands! Nettle's supporters have proven to be just as judgemental as they accuse us of being.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

It's a laugh everyone is advised to go to a qualified behaviorist with issues, the OP get a Vet referral and suddenly Pet Forums is full of people doubting the behaviorist and suddenly become more qualified than the behaviorist...


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

LinznMilly said:


> Well, I admit I have skim-read most of the thread because of the bickering and to-and-fro of some of the earlier posts, so I might have missed some of those who have poo-pooed SA, nor do I see where people have actually blamed the dog's SA on the OP herself, but others, like my own posts, actually were written with genuine concern for the OP and her dog, and frankly, the way that comment of yours was written, I interpreted as meaning that only those who agree with her way of handling an SA dog, are concerned for her. It just seemed like a snide dig at those of us who don't agree with or support the OP 100%. I apologise if I picked it up wrong.
> 
> However, my comment stands! Nettle's supporters have proven to be just as judgemental as they accuse us of being.


LinznMilly have I quoted you in this thread? Have I had any interaction with you at all?


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> In this post your story about the display has changed completely from your opening post.
> In your post you was at the display and standing slightly to the side from a crowd, now it is fifteen minutes walk away from a display.
> 
> You said that the couple walked behind you and said why would people bring a dog to a firework display as it is cruel, and your family member agreed, if it was in a car park fifteen walk away then you wasn't at one and could have been going somewhere else.
> Why would a couple even walk so closely behind you if you were in a private car park, let alone say it is cruel to bring them to a display, when you are not at a display? You're telling a different story now to your original one.


My story hasn't changed. The crowds and the display are not the same thing. There were hundreds, perhaps even thousands of people at the display so as you can imagine, they took up quite a bit of space. In the photo I posted in a previous post, you can see an alleyway in front of where we were standing. If you walk to the end of that alleyway and turn left, that is where the crowds of people began, therefore we were "off to the side of the crowds" or "2-3 minutes away" Apologies that I did not give you the exact measurements in my first post. I also still believe we were at a firework display. We got into the car, we drove down to a private carpark in the town centre. We got out of the car and walked towards the main street. When we got to the end of the alleyway shown in my picture, we realised that the main street of the town was packed with people so we turned and walked off to the side of the crowds. We then stood and watched the firework display. As we don't often drive into the town centre to stand in a private carpark staring into the sky at 6pm on a Saturday evening, I class that as going to a firework display. We could see and hear the fireworks, we seen and could hear the crowds of people. Therefore I believe we went to the firework display. I hope that's clarified things for you.


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## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Guess I must be in the @Nettles supporters club then. Yay a new club to belong to . Its not the posters who aren't 110% in agreement with the OP that I have an issue with, more the ones who have jumped to conclusions and made judgements about her as if she chooses to have a dog with SA and is somehow responsible for it despite all the information being given repeatedly outlining the work they are doing.


My sentiments exactly so I must be a member of that club too Yay didn't realise I had joined a new club lol


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

No, but the way your posts have come across, I could easily (and have) wonder if I'm one of those who are "judging" the OP...

Just look at RPH - nowhere did I call her a "supporter" of Nettles, but there she is, placing herself in that group.. Same shoe, different foot.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

@LinznMilly these were a few of the particularly objectionable statements although there were others



Blitz said:


> I am not sure how a dog can be 'diagnosed' as having SA. It is a made up term for a dog that does not like being alone.





Blitz said:


> but it is not an illness for heavens sake.





Blitz said:


> Presumably someone in the family has to go to work! How can things be improving when she has NEVER left the dog alone.





Blitz said:


> she says that the pup has been like that since 8 weeks old. If that is true something has gone very very wrong in her upbringing.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> @LinznMilly these were a few of the particularly objectionable statements although there were others


Point taken, but again, nowhere did @Blitz blame the OP for the SA.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

LinznMilly said:


> No, but the way your posts have come across, I could easily (and have) wonder if I'm one of those who are "judging" the OP...
> 
> Just look at RPH - nowhere did I call her a "supporter" of Nettles, but there she is, placing herself in that group.. Same shoe, different foot.


So am I not allowed to state I am a supporter of Nettles in this thread? I'm certainly a fan of her OH  I'm not complaining I think its great we have a new club to belong to, it makes a change from the Oldies under attack club which got a bit stale. Seriously @LinznMilly I thought you were joking about the club so I replied in similar vein.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

LinznMilly said:


> Point taken, but again, nowhere did @Blitz blame the OP for the SA.


That is not my understanding of the last quote in particular.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Meezey said:


> Picking on you? Really picking on you?  So you what to be able to pick holes in someones story and when someone mentions it, now you are being picked on?


Honestly, no I do not feel picked on, I used the incorrect phrase, picking apart my posts, you are free to do it to mine, yet I cannot say the two versions of a story do not go hand in hand. Never mind, just to state again, I do not feel picked on by you, my posts were picked on by you. No need for the eyeroll, I am not a sap who canot abide someone quoting my posts.

I never feel picked on on a forum really, mostly because it is forumland, not real and at any time we are free to just shut the computer off and go on with our lives, and with that statement I shall do just that as frankly this back and forward is quite tedious and does not serve me at all.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

LinznMilly said:


> No, but the way your posts have come across, I could easily (and have) wonder if I'm one of those who are "judging" the OP...
> 
> Just look at RPH - nowhere did I call her a "supporter" of Nettles, but there she is, placing herself in that group.. Same shoe, different foot.


If you feel you are then I can't control that..

If I felt that about you I'd tell you, then I run the risk of being accused of picking on people.

I quoted the post, I was referring to, I also used their terminology in replying. *shrugs* I've not until you quoted me even read your posts in this thread.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> So am I not allowed to state I am a supporter of Nettles in this thread? I'm certainly a fan of her OH  I'm not complaining I think its great we have a new club to belong to, it makes a change from the Oldies under attack club which got a bit stale. Seriously @LinznMilly I thought you were joking about the club so I replied in similar vein.


Oldies, Goats, Bandwagons ( do not mention the band wagons), experts, know it all, rude, bully, man I've never been a member of so many clubs in my life................ Well I'm not a member of the oldies club as I am not old I've been 35 for the lat 7 years and will remain so.......................... The Nettle Supports Club... Ohhhhhhhhhh I've just though of some thing reading that lol


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> Honestly, no I do not feel picked on, I used the incorrect phrase, picking apart my posts, you are free to do it to mine, yet I cannot say the two versions of a story do not go hand in hand. Never mind, just to state again, I do not feel picked on by you, my posts were picked on by you. No need for the eyeroll, I am not a sap who canot abide someone quoting my posts.
> 
> I never feel picked on on a forum really, mostly because it is forumland, not real and at any time we are free to just shut the computer off and go on with our lives, and with that statement I shall do just that as frankly this back and forward is quite tedious and does not serve me at all.


I like to be dramatic and roll my eyes................ Just as long as I get them rolled back..


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

LinznMilly said:


> @Nettles , I was just wondering, is Phoebe from a BYB/less than reputable breeder?
> 
> I don't mean to criticize, or blame, just wondering, if she has had severe SA from such a young age, if it could be related to poor breeding practices? In which case, you may always be fighting an uphill battle.
> 
> Sincere apologies if I've got that wrong. It's just something that I think I remember from an earlier post.


You're right, I have mentioned it a few times that I don't think the breeder was particularly ethical. There were no health tests done on the parents and I only discovered after joining the forum that health checks weren't the same thing.

A few of the litter aren't exactly in perfect health tbh. We met one of Phoebes brothers when registering at the vets and he'd just been diagnosed with a small heart murmur. Phoebe had puppy vaginitis, is prone to UTI's and has had a few problems with pulled muscles in her hips. We contacted her breeder about her hips and the SA and she seemed genuinely concerned and offered to put us in touch with a behaviourist she knew. We were happy with our own so just left it at that. She also said as far as she is aware, none of the other pups have had any health problems apart from her brother with the heart murmer. We've met 4 other pups from her litter through classes and none had SA and we all quite confident pups. Her sister Katie, who my friend owns, is a very nervous dog in general but is fine being alone. Apart from the SA, Phoebe is a very confident dog in all other aspects of life, especially compared to Katie so there isn't any particular issue that seems to be consistent with the rest of the litter if that makes sense.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Meezey said:


> What does it matter if she was stood in the middle of a band parade next to a bonfire firing an RPG


No no, that was Sunday afternoon :Hilarious


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> @LinznMilly these were a few of the particularly objectionable statements although there were others


I suppose it is par for the course that you would only pick on my comments and also take them out of context. I actually stand by everything I have said.

Nearly all 8 week pups object strongly to being left, some to more of an extent than others. How many times has advice been given that if you do not leave your pup from an early age for short times you are going to end up with problems as they get older. 
There may or may not be such a thing as SA but giving a young pup any label surely means that it is then treated as something different from the norm when quite possibly it was just a very normal but rather hysterical pup. What would have been the long term result of a more usual vet whose advice would have been to walk away and let the pup cry for a few minutes at a time. Obviously if you never leave a pup it is going to get hysterical when left - as so many people have been warned about on here when they say the pup is never on its own.

In no way am I blaming Nettles. She was taking professional advice and it is now far too late to walk away and leave the dog to its own devices but maybe this post can be useful to others that have an extreme puppy.

And again I do not criticise Nettles at all for the firework thing which was what this thread was originally about. Whether or not the dog could be left at home Nettles wanted the dog with her and the dog was happy to be with her - what is wrong with that.

My dogs come out with me behind the carriage when I am driving ponies, maybe people see them and think it unsuitable because their dogs would not enjoy it but mine do and if anyone criticises me for my choice it would bounce off me because I know it is right for my dogs.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Nettles said:


> My story hasn't changed. The crowds and the display are not the same thing. There were hundreds, perhaps even thousands of people at the display so as you can imagine, they took up quite a bit of space. In the photo I posted in a previous post, you can see an alleyway in front of where we were standing. If you walk to the end of that alleyway and turn left, that is where the crowds of people began, therefore we were "off to the side of the crowds" or "2-3 minutes away" Apologies that I did not give you the exact measurements in my first post. I also still believe we were at a firework display. We got into the car, we drove down to a private carpark in the town centre. We got out of the car and walked towards the main street. When we got to the end of the alleyway shown in my picture, we realised that the main street of the town was packed with people so we turned and walked off to the side of the crowds. We then stood and watched the firework display. As we don't often drive into the town centre to stand in a private carpark staring into the sky at 6pm on a Saturday evening, I class that as going to a firework display. We could see and hear the fireworks, we seen and could hear the crowds of people. Therefore I believe we went to the firework display. I hope that's clarified things for you.


I get that! We went to a fireworks display at the beach a couple of nights before bonty night. We actually sited ourselves in the fairground and watched the display from there. Our view of the fireworks was similar to the one you posted a pic of.

However, if it were a "guess where we are" quiz, I would never have said you were at a fireworks display, no more than I would expect people to guess that we were at one from a picture of a firework going off from behind the ferrous wheel. :sorry. I would personally expect people to guess that we were at the fair and fireworks were going off in the background. For all that picture tells us, you could have been at home, watching from your back garden.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Nettles said:


> You're right, I have mentioned it a few times that I don't think the breeder was particularly ethical. There were no health tests done on the parents and I only discovered after joining the forum that health checks weren't the same thing.
> 
> A few of the litter aren't exactly in perfect health tbh. We met one of Phoebes brothers when registering at the vets and he'd just been diagnosed with a small heart murmur. Phoebe had puppy vaginitis, is prone to UTI's and has had a few problems with pulled muscles in her hips. We contacted her breeder about her hips and the SA and she seemed genuinely concerned and offered to put us in touch with a behaviourist she knew. We were happy with our own so just left it at that. She also said as far as she is aware, none of the other pups have had any health problems apart from her brother with the heart murmer. We've met 4 other pups from her litter through classes and none had SA and we all quite confident pups. Her sister Katie, who my friend owns, is a very nervous dog in general but is fine being alone. Apart from the SA, Phoebe is a very confident dog in all other aspects of life, especially compared to Katie so there isn't any particular issue that seems to be consistent with the rest of the litter if that makes sense.


It makes sense, yes. But the fact that her sister is nervous makes me wonder if there is something - anxiety or nervousness - that might be in her bloodline. Might not be, might be something completely unrelated, I'm no expert.

Good luck with her.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Yayyy a supporters club all about ME :Cigar Oh I must get some tea and biscuits in just in case a fan arrives for an autograph 
Anyways, the comment about how "something must have seriously happened in her upbringing" certainly implies that it's something we have done wrong. Perhaps that is correct, perhaps not but it doesn't change how she is now. She was left alone as a pup for a few minutes at a time from day 1, hence how we discovered how severe the SA can get.
She is no better in her crate than she is out of it but the only difference is, she has less things to hurt herself on when in her crate. She doesn't just protest and throw a fuss, she loses control of her bodily functions, she vomits and wretches continuously, she gets into such a panic that she hurls herself against things and hurts herself. She managed to cut her face on the side of her crate on one occasion, she pulled muscles in her hips on another occasion, She paces, pants, howls, cries, scratches and shakes uncontrollably. It was one of the most awful things I have witnessed and will not put her in that position again until she improves.
If anyone thinks all those horrendous symptoms are due to her upbringing, then that's there opinion but there's still nothing I can do about it now except try and help her by following profession advice, which we are doing and have been doing since she was 14 weeks old.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Nettles said:


> Yayyy a supporters club all about ME :Cigar Oh I must get some tea and biscuits in just in case a fan arrives for an autograph
> Anyways, the comment about how "something must have seriously happened in her upbringing" certainly implies that it's something we have done wrong. Perhaps that is correct, perhaps not but it doesn't change how she is now. She was left alone as a pup for a few minutes at a time from day 1, hence how we discovered how severe the SA can get.
> She is no better in her crate than she is out of it but the only difference is, she has less things to hurt herself on when in her crate. She doesn't just protest and throw a fuss, she loses control of her bodily functions, she vomits and wretches continuously, she gets into such a panic that she hurls herself against things and hurts herself. She managed to cut her face on the side of her crate on one occasion, she pulled muscles in her hips on another occasion, She paces, pants, howls, cries, scratches and shakes uncontrollably. It was one of the most awful things I have witnessed and will not put her in that position again until she improves.
> If anyone thinks all those horrendous symptoms are due to her upbringing, then that's there opinion but there's still nothing I can do about it now except try and help her by following profession advice, which we are doing and have been doing since she was 14 weeks old.


Oh god, poor Pheobe. That's awful, love her 
From what I can see and what I've read from you on here, I think you love her to bits and are doing everything you can. Other than the SA, she seems a great, happy girl.
I don't know why dogs develop SA, same as I don't know why Muttly suddenly decided he was afraid of being in the kitchen at night. He was in such a state that I would not put him back in that situation, same as you wouldn't Phoebe in her crate.

Keep doing what you're doing Nettles.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

LinznMilly said:


> It makes sense, yes. But the fact that her sister is nervous makes me wonder if there is something - anxiety or nervousness - that might be in her bloodline. Might not be, might be something completely unrelated, I'm no expert.
> 
> Good luck with her.


Despite what others may think about her just being a bit vocal when left alone and her upbringing being the root of all her problems, I do actually believe that is just the way she is. Her dad is a working dog and her mother is a family pet and both are confident dogs so I could be wrong, especially since I know diddly squat about genetics and bloodlines etc.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Meezey said:


> To be fair SLB this is exactly the reason Leanne has a bit of a cheek pointing the finger at OP, the fact her dogs are only allowed in the kitchen is often one that ends up with people judging so you would think there might have been a bit more consideration in her response about how people spend their time with their dogs ! Hence glasshouses and all that.


Ah, I thought the 'glasshouses' comment was aimed at me, judge away. I have come to realise it's not the norm for dogs to be kept separate from their owners but I cant do much about the dogs being kept in the kitchen since it's not my house so I dont live by my own rules unfortunately. But even if I had the option of them coming into the living room with me (which I sometimes do when nobody is home) I dont take it because as much as I love my dogs and try to give them the best of everything, I dont want them with me all the time. Pretty much the same as I wouldnt want to be with a partner all the time, or kids, or family so I still stand by what I said.

There was also lots of comment in previous pages about leaving dogs with SA to just get on with it. I want to clarify that I never said Nettles or anybody should take that approach, it's just the approach that I took, my dogs had to deal with being left alone from the very first day they arrived home. Even my adult rescue dog had to deal with that. I did pop home at dinnertime to let them out and have a play, and 3 out of 7 days they spent with my Mum but other than that it was just tough love im afraid.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Nettles said:


> Yayyy a supporters club all about ME :Cigar Oh I must get some tea and biscuits in just in case a fan arrives for an autograph
> Anyways, the comment about how "something must have seriously happened in her upbringing" certainly implies that it's something we have done wrong. Perhaps that is correct, perhaps not but it doesn't change how she is now. She was left alone as a pup for a few minutes at a time from day 1, hence how we discovered how severe the SA can get.
> She is no better in her crate than she is out of it but the only difference is, she has less things to hurt herself on when in her crate. She doesn't just protest and throw a fuss, she loses control of her bodily functions, she vomits and wretches continuously, she gets into such a panic that she hurls herself against things and hurts herself. She managed to cut her face on the side of her crate on one occasion, she pulled muscles in her hips on another occasion, She paces, pants, howls, cries, scratches and shakes uncontrollably. It was one of the most awful things I have witnessed and will not put her in that position again until she improves.
> If anyone thinks all those horrendous symptoms are due to her upbringing, then that's there opinion but there's still nothing I can do about it now except try and help her by following profession advice, which we are doing and have been doing since she was 14 weeks old.


Can I suggest a members t'shirt? I've got some great design ideas but must warn you they do involve navy Crimpeline


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Leanne77 said:


> Ah, I thought the 'glasshouses' comment was aimed at me, judge away. I have come to realise it's not the norm for dogs to be kept separate from their owners but I cant do much about the dogs being kept in the kitchen since it's not my house so I dont live by my own rules unfortunately. But even if I had the option of them coming into the living room with me (which I sometimes do when nobody is home) I dont take it because as much as I love my dogs and try to give them the best of everything, I dont want them with me all the time. Pretty much the same as I wouldnt want to be with a partner all the time, or kids, or family so I still stand by what I said.
> 
> There was also lots of comment in previous pages about leaving dogs with SA to just get on with it. I want to clarify that I never said Nettles or anybody should take that approach, it's just the approach that I took, my dogs had to deal with being left alone from the very first day they arrived home. Even my adult rescue dog had to deal with that. I did pop home at dinnertime to let them out and have a play, and 3 out of 7 days they spent with my Mum but other than that it was just tough love im afraid.


I am not judging you. I said considering how other have made judgement on your situation you might have had a bit more consideration when you made your comments...


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Can I suggest a members t'shirt? I've got some great design ideas but must warn you they do involve navy Crimpeline


Crimpeline? Walking fire hazards.... Might remove my support of Nettle one......


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Muttly said:


> Oh god, poor Pheobe. That's awful, love her
> From what I can see and what I've read from you on here, I think you love her to bits and are doing everything you can. Other than the SA, she seems a great, happy girl.
> I don't know why dogs develop SA, same as I don't know why Muttly suddenly decided he was afraid of being in the kitchen at night. He was in such a state that I would not put him back in that situation, same as you wouldn't Phoebe in her crate.
> 
> Keep doing what you're doing Nettles.


She really is a very happy and confident girl the rest of the time and we are managing her anxiety so she doesn't get into those panics anymore.
Poor Muttly  I wonder what happened to frighten him so much. At least he won't be in that position again. He's a lucky boy


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Nettles said:


> Yayyy a supporters club all about ME :Cigar Oh I must get some tea and biscuits in just in case a fan arrives for an autograph
> Anyways, the comment about how "something must have seriously happened in her upbringing" certainly implies that it's something we have done wrong. Perhaps that is correct, perhaps not but it doesn't change how she is now. She was left alone as a pup for a few minutes at a time from day 1, hence how we discovered how severe the SA can get.
> She is no better in her crate than she is out of it but the only difference is, she has less things to hurt herself on when in her crate. She doesn't just protest and throw a fuss, she loses control of her bodily functions, she vomits and wretches continuously, she gets into such a panic that she hurls herself against things and hurts herself. She managed to cut her face on the side of her crate on one occasion, she pulled muscles in her hips on another occasion, She paces, pants, howls, cries, scratches and shakes uncontrollably. It was one of the most awful things I have witnessed and will not put her in that position again until she improves.
> If anyone thinks all those horrendous symptoms are due to her upbringing, then that's there opinion but there's still nothing I can do about it now except try and help her by following profession advice, which we are doing and have been doing since she was 14 weeks old.


Poor little poppet, you must have been so heartbroken whenever that happened


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Can I suggest a members t'shirt? I've got some great design ideas but must warn you they do involve navy Crimpeline


Of course! Oh navy crimplene t-shirts and pairs of bondage trousers :Hilarious I LOVE IT!!
Keep it on the hush hush though or everyone will be wanting to join


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Meezey said:


> Crimpeline? Walking fire hazards.... Might remove my support of Nettle one......


There are safety precautions in place. It's not like you'll be dancing amongst lit fireworks for goodness sake


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Meezey said:


> I am not judging you. I said considering how other have made judgement on your situation you might have had a bit more consideration when you made your comments...


I cant recall anybody making judgement on my situation, certainly not on here anyway. There was only one time on another forum somebody said I shouldnt have dogs and that they felt sorry for them but tbh it's water off a ducks back. I am of the thinking that the vast majority of people on this forum I do not know in person, and will never likely know so they can have whatever opinion they like. Yes, I might debate it, or pick up on something somebody says but at the end of the day it's just a forum and we all make judgements about one thing or another, how can we not when we dont know each member in person and can only go on what they say? I have been called rude directly a couple of times on this thread but thats an opinion, just like everything else so I dont take offence or let it bother me.

So on that note, Nettles really shouldnt give a stuff what people in the street or on a forum have to say, it's not affecting our lives at the end of the day.


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## jamat (Jun 3, 2015)

chissy 15 said:


> Although Hogan can be left on his own quite happily (4_5 hours a day when I'm working), it's family members not understanding why we don't visit them ( OH family). Two of OH's sisters moved from Wiltshire to Cambridgeshire , one doesn't like dogs so Hogan wouldn't be welcome and the other has cats and wouldn't allow a dog in the house, so what are we suppose to do? They think we should put Hogàn in kennels or get one of the kids to come over and dog sit. My answer to that is OH can go visit by himself, I'll stay at home with Hogan Don't think I'm very popular with his family


 I have the same issues with my wife's grandmother. She's a really posh 92 year old, spritely old goat and lives on her own about 45 minutes away.

She's never thought I was good enough for her granddaughter and every time we go their I get insulted by her  A few times now I've used the excuse I've had to work at weekends but I feel sorry for my wife as its not her fault and I'd never stop my daughter going to see her great grandmother either.

Now Alfie's joined the family my wife says its a perfect and acceptable excuse that I have to stay home and look after the dog lol


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> Poor little poppet, you must have been so heartbroken whenever that happened


I really was heartbroken and feel terrible at the state I allowed her to get into when she hurt her hip. I didn't know any better and had sadly listened to the advice of "just leave her to get on with it" which I did.. for about 20 mins


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Nettles said:


> There are safety precautions in place. It's not like you'll be dancing amongst lit fireworks for goodness sake


Haha fire works least of my worries living off the Shore Road trust me lol


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Nettles said:


> I really was heartbroken and feel terrible at the state I allowed her to get into when she hurt her hip. I didn't know any better and had sadly listened to the advice of "just leave her to get on with it" which I did.. for about 20 mins


When I first got Dex I was told that I could leave him for 2 hours at a time. Make that 2 minutes! I didn't have any experience of SA either, as my last rescue was so chilled that he could barely be bothered getting off the sofa to say hello when I came home. I still feel bad that I didn't seek help for him earlier, so the poor boy suffered with a bumbling idiot of a mother. Thankfully he seems to have forgiven me, but I still feel dreadful


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

That was a read and a half. I thought at one point it was going to go toes up and have a big padlock slapped on it, but now I've got to the final page it seems things are a bit more friendly again. 

@Nettles I am posting for no reason other than to give my unsolicited opinion on your dilemma and some of the comments from other posters. 

Fireworks: if I saw a dog at a fireworks display I would do a double take. My knee-jerk reaction would be 'WTF? Why have they brought a dog to a fireworks display?!' My more measured reaction, to come after I'd watched for a few moments, would be equally horrified if the dog was showing signs of distress, but rather indifferent if I then saw that the dog was relaxed and not bothered, as Phoebe was.

After all, even though at this time of year we hear a lot about fireworks phobias, not every dog is bothered by fireworks. Many dogs are of course trained for the gun and used to loud bangs. I've had similar thoughts in the past when I've been to busy horse trials - a perfect outdoorsy day out for dogs in the eyes of some - and for every happy relaxed dog I've seen, I've seen one or two others being dragged by their leads through crowds of people, wide-eyed at the sounds of whistles, and panting with anxiety. It's worse when the weather is hot.

So it's not just fireworks displays that can be considered an inappropriate environment for a dog: at the end of the day it's down to the individual dog and I would say that in *most* cases the person best placed to make that call is the owner, since they know their dog best. That said, there are still sadly _some_ people out there (not talking about Nettles) who really don't know what's best for their dog, who can't recognise stress in their dog, and who need educating (not berating) over the choices they make for their dog.

Family butting in: difficult one isn't it? It's hard to comment fairly without knowing the nature of their complaints. Is it because they are worried about Phoebe not learning to be comfortable on their own? Is it because they are worried about you, not being able to leave her? Is it because they just think you're doing it all wrong and want the world to know it for some reason?

I think there is obviously an element of... 'welfare' is too strong a word, maybe 'comfort' would be better - to consider when we look at our goals for treating SA. Dogs with SA are obviously distressed when faced with the challenge of being left alone, which is not good for them. Owners are obviously faced with a variety of fun emotions such as sadness, frustration, anger, guilt, resentment etc if they can't leave their dog for any length of time - because they worry about their dog and because it can interfere with other aspects of their lives.

I can see how worried friends/family might feel the need to comment if their fears are for your welfare/sanity or Phoebe's welfare, but if they are addressing it by making heavy-handed comments rather than offering support and sympathy then it obviously does more harm than good. If they are in this category, then it might be worth having a heartfelt chat to clear the air and get them on side.

On the other hand, they might just be bitchy - I don't know your family! If they are this category, I'd still try talking to them: but if that doesn't work then I agree with the others. Don't worry about what their opinion is if it's misinformed and they have no intention of being enlightened: screw 'em and expend your efforts on another avenue of the situation.

SA: do those who don't believe in SA also think people with depression or anxiety should 'pull themselves together?' Because that doesn't work. SA is most definitely a real thing, and judging by the conversations I have with dog owners on a daily basis it's also not uncommon (though it is obviously a spectrum with different individuals affected to different extents in different ways).

Phoebe is obviously a severe case. I'm not going to offer any advice since I am not a behaviourist, but I just wanted to say that the fact you are working on her SA and want to change it is the crux of this thread and all I need to know to be deeply sympathetic. I have (sadly) met some people - fortunately few - who know their dog has SA but do nothing to address it, and in fact encourage it in some cases because they 'like' that their dog needs them. Putting on my amateur psychologist's hat, I guess it's some sort of validation for them and a way of dealing with their own issues, perhaps centred around loneliness or self-esteem.

Maybe these dog owners should have my sympathy. They do to an extent, and they will always have my support of they want it, but I do tell them they are not being fair to their dog if they know they have SA and have no intention of doing anything about it. Does anyone, of any species, want to feel as desolate and terrified as a dog with SA must feel when left alone, if they can be helped? That's a welfare issue. To solve it by keeping the dog with you at all times is all well and good, but doesn't address the underlying issue and is also not a failsafe approach since the unexpected can always happen. Trying to change the dog's mindset to help them cope may be the hard way, but I have respect and admiration for those who choose that path.

I tell new puppy owners to get working on controlled alone time right away - for the good of the pup if nothing else. We want them to be comfortable and confident being alone if the need arises. Most people don't argue with this rationale.

Sorry Nettles, I'm off on a tangent a bit. I was trying to say that I'm glad you're working on Phoebe's SA and are making progress. I hope that with time you manage to get her to a point where she can be left alone for short periods without becoming so distressed. Do try talking to the family members in question, in a calm and non-confrontational setting, but if that doesn't work then ignore the naysayers and keep on working on the SA.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Meezey said:


> Haha fire works least of my worries living off the Shore Road trust me lol


Haha I hear ya! That's where some of my family are from back in the day. Dunlambert and Whitewell if I've got that right.


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## jamat (Jun 3, 2015)

emmaviolet said:


> Throw it back to you then, a forum to you is picking on me for noticing the holes in someone's story then? It's not like you haven't done it over and over on the forum though.
> 
> It was an issue people picked up on, it isn't the safest place for a dog, so the passer by and the family member had a very valid point, then all of a sudden the story was completely different. I was not the only one who noticed the complete change of story. Of course how you tell something is relevant, if she was fifteen minutes away in a car park you wouldn't even take a passer by seriously as you would say I am not at a firework display.


When Nettles first posted she was stressed and upset, she generalised the situation in the story and probably didn't get the full picture across.

Her later post clarified the actual situation that night, she was in a less stressed state of mind and thinking things through more...... THAT DOES NOT MAKE HER A LIAR

It is scientific fact that people under stress or highly upset, witnessing a crime for example, will give a slightly less accurate / altered version of the event straight after it happened to when they have had time to think things through .

Give the lady a break ...for christ's sake


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

jamat said:


> When Nettles first posted she was stressed and upset, she generalised the situation in the story and probably didn't get the full picture across.
> 
> Her later post clarified the actual situation that night, she was in a less stressed state of mind and thinking things through more...... THAT DOES NOT MAKE HER A LIAR
> 
> ...


I never said she was a LIAR! Thank you.

However I do maintain that it was a very long post and there was an awful lot of detail about very many things, pretty much if you wasn't at a FW display and away from it in a car park I believe you would say I was in a car park very much away from it and also nobody would walk past and say how it was cruelty to bring a dog to one when they were not even at a FW display.

I actually have a lot of sympathy for the OP and I truly believe in what I said earlier. I do think she actually needs to take a step back and change her routine and as I said and you now, she needs a break away from her dog.
In six months to only have a quick visit to the vets as her only trip out without the dog, it is unhealthy for her and an owner who just feels under constant stress of the dog not being able to be left will feed into the dog's stresses.

Anyway why not give me a break, for Christ's sake? 
No need for your rudeness towards me and your 'shouting' in caps. It is a forum for opinions and observations. Such was mine. No need to rile yourself up there.


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## Aahlly (Sep 12, 2014)

What a read . . . Seems like the vast majority of posts here are completely irrelevant because (correct me if I'm wrong @Nettles) but it appeared to me that the OP began the thread as a bit of a rant/let off some steam/have a shoulder to cry on and it's morphed into opinions about fireworks vs. dogs, SA vs. man and forum etiquette vs. forum members. What an adventure!

Really, @Nettles just live your life. In this situation, other people's opinions have nothing to do with anything. You're doing everything you can for Phoebe, the way you choose to care for her has little bearing on other's lives and as much as your family would seemingly like to convince you otherwise, you're doing nothing wrong. You're got your behaviourist, you're working on Phoebe's issues, you made a judgement call about taking her to the fireworks which seemed to work out fine with no maiming or fatalities. I mean, what else can you give? Blood?

Everyone can give opinions, that's fine but with an issue like this take every comment with a grain of salt because everyone's context is different in that, they aren't there living your life alongside you and therefore don't see day to day what it's like. With each passing day, I care less and less for other's opinions on my life choices. Especially when they affect no-one but myself. That passer-by? Irrelevant. Here's hoping you'll never see him/her again. And your family? That's more difficult to brush off, but just because they're your family doesn't mean you have to listen to them. I rarely listen to my family and they've survived it and we're even all still friends (mostly !)


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## SingingWhippet (Feb 25, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> Wow, I have finally got to the end of this, and must say, I'm thoroughly depressed at the tone some posters take. I really hope it made you feel good to lord it over the OP and make her feel even worse about herself.


You're not the only one 

Threads like this are why I'm posting less and less on PF these days. It's ceasing to be a forum about dogs and turning into a platform for various combinations of members to snipe at each other.


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## jamat (Jun 3, 2015)

emmaviolet said:


> I never said she was a LIAR! Thank you.
> 
> However I do maintain that it was a very long post and there was an awful lot of detail about very many things, pretty much if you wasn't at a FW display and away from it in a car park I believe you would say I was in a car park very much away from it and also nobody would walk past and say how it was cruelty to bring a dog to one when they were not even at a FW display.
> 
> ...


Apologies for shouting but you might not have come out and said she was a liar but you implied that by picking holes in her post.

Its great you have sympathy towards Nettles and her situation but why then go and spoil it by picking holes in what she says.

And as she and her husband have said many times its not about going to the firework display that she posted. It could quite easily have been some other gathering it was the fact that some stranger gave a negative comment then her own family agreed with that stranger rather than support her.

She was trying to express her feelings of unhappiness at not getting support from her family and thought, rightly or wrongly, she might get that support from fellow dog owners and that is why she originally posted


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## shirleystarr (Mar 22, 2009)

Well having read the whole 11 pages I have to say I think Nettles and her husband are doing the right thing for their dog The are working on the SA at a slow pace which is better than rushing things Now many will say a puppy is not born with SA so its something the breeder has or not done or the owner Well I cant agree with that and I will tell you why
Many years ago I bought 1 Bichon puppies from a good breeder parents and grandparents show dogs no one knew in those days about health tests and I bought one male and one female Now the male was very confident you could take him in the car he loved it you could leave him on his own if the female had to go the to the vets Now leave the female alone if he had to go anywhere and she has such bad SA there would be a mess when I got home losing control of all her bodily functions ripping fur out of herself and they both had the same training same everything really I think unless you have been in that situation you have no idea how dreadful it can be
Saying that in those days no one knew about a behaviourist at least the OP is using one which is great I could take the male dog to any noisy place fireworks in next doors garden which were loud and he would love it whereas the female would be beside herself with fear Anyway after that ramble to get to the point The OP took her dog in a car park near a firework display the dog was relaxed and not bothered by the noise so I don't see what the problem is good luck to the OP and here hubby and bless you both for caring and looking after the best interests of your dog


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## Connie4dogs (Nov 5, 2015)

This is only a suggestion ...Maybe and I only mean maybe she may be less anxious in the company of another furbaby...One thing I noticed with the two yorkies I have (mother and daughter, I also have 2 irish setters) is that I never felt I had a puppy in the house as her mother taught her well....no biting , chewing etc... she was a little angel!..I am now of the belief that puppies are probably better spending longer with their mums and are maybe better socialised with their littermates. It must be such a wrench to be taken from their mums . Some suffer from loneliness and boredom more than others and I know it is difficult to identify the root cause. When we get a puppy we take over the roll of 'mum' so I can kind of understand how SA forms. All my girls are mostly together giving it big Z's usually in the room I am in. Try not to stress yourself too much about it as your dog will sense it too. Maybe as he gets older he will gain more confidence . Good luck to you xx

Shirl


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

jamat said:


> Apologies for shouting but you might not have come out and said she was a liar but you implied that by picking holes in her post.
> 
> Its great you have sympathy towards Nettles and her situation but why then go and spoil it by picking holes in what she says.
> 
> ...


No need to apologise, it was just what I posted, it wasn't calling her a liar, but as I said, she said she was there, people were saying they didn't agree with the dog being there and I just agreed, if the dog was at the display as was laid out in the first post. Anyway, it is what it is, I posted as I did and am what I am, imperfect and prone to picking holes. There are reasons I can be prone to do this, it is what it is.

It may not have been why she was posting, but then people can say they can understand where the person and the family member was coming from. So pointing out the flaw in one part does not exclude you from actually being sympathetic.

But yes, I do have sympathy for the other part of her posting and I truly believe she should consider taking Meezy up on her offer perhaps. As I said to try to break up the pattern and behaviour. I am sure there are a lot of us who have had an issue or two and usually the biggest breakthrough is when you take the dog out of a situation and change it up a bit. A stay with other dogs may be great for her girl and also a bit of time for herself to recharge her batteries and do something just for herself, say hairdressers, nails or shopping or a day out somewhere. Sometimes this is exactly what we need to come back to a situation with a refreshed mind to a problematic situation.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Meezey said:


> Do you though?


No - because I've never had the need to - I live in the country and they free roam when they're out (and yes that's a whole separate topic)


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

It is so very interesting to see who is clamouring to like whose post. Ooh I know let's pick more holes in Nettles and her OH's posts and let's all 'like' it. You've had f knows how many posts explaining in way more detail than you all deserve and you are acting like kids. Grow up.


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

This all seems like a colossal waste of time now anyway. Channel the energy into doing some Christmas shopping!


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)




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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Shoshannah said:


> That was a read and a half. I thought at one point it was going to go toes up and have a big padlock slapped on it, but now I've got to the final page it seems things are a bit more friendly again.
> 
> Fireworks: if I saw a dog at a fireworks display I would do a double take. My knee-jerk reaction would be 'WTF? Why have they brought a dog to a fireworks display?!' My more measured reaction, to come after I'd watched for a few moments, would be equally horrified if the dog was showing signs of distress, but rather indifferent if I then saw that the dog was relaxed and not bothered, as Phoebe was.
> 
> After all, even though at this time of year we hear a lot about fireworks phobias, not every dog is bothered by fireworks. Many dogs are of course trained for the gun and used to loud bangs. I've had similar thoughts in the past when I've been to busy horse trials - a perfect outdoorsy day out for dogs in the eyes of some - and for every happy relaxed dog I've seen, I've seen one or two others being dragged by their leads through crowds of people, wide-eyed at the sounds of whistles, and panting with anxiety. It's worse when the weather is hot.


100% agree with that. I too would be, having got over the initial WTH moment, be looking at how the dog was reacting and judging accordingly. Most dogs are probably scared of fireworks to be honest but there are definitely some that really couldn't care less and would be perfectly happy to watch quietly.

I agree with others here Nettles, stuff what other people think. They don't have your dog, have probably never had a dog with SA and are in no position to judge.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

@emmaviolet to imply I'm not telling the truth is IMO no different to calling me a liar.
Out of curiosity, what constitutes "being at a firework display" ? Like I've said, I believe I was at a firework display. I travelled into the town centre to watch the fireworks. I saw fireworks and I saw crowds of people. I could hear the Christmas music being played and there was an excited atmosphere in the air. Do I have to physically see the fireworks being lit to be "AT" a firework display? If that's the case, I've never been at a firework display in my life. Do I have to stand amongst the crowds of people? What about the hundreds of people who were stood just a few minutes away from us? Were they not at the firework display either? The local newspaper took photographs of the fireworks from right where we were standing and their Facebook page states "Christmas firework display in Bangor" below the photographs. Should I tell them they weren't at the display either? Also just to clarify for you a little more, when I say I was 15 minutes walk away from the safety barrier, I meant that is how long it would take for me to walk from where I was standing to the safety barriers, taking into consideration that I would have to walk around the buildings. I'm not sure how far away we were as the crow flys but I'm sure there's an app for that.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

@Nettles I'm sorry but in order to be absolutely sure of the above post we need Phoebe herself online right now. She has learned to type right?!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Nettles said:


> @emmaviolet to imply I'm not telling the truth is IMO no different to calling me a liar.
> Out of curiosity, what constitutes "being at a firework display" ? Like I've said, I believe I was at a firework display. I travelled into the town centre to watch the fireworks. I saw fireworks and I saw crowds of people. I could hear the Christmas music being played and there was an excited atmosphere in the air. Do I have to physically see the fireworks being lit to be "AT" a firework display? If that's the case, I've never been at a firework display in my life. Do I have to stand amongst the crowds of people? What about the hundreds of people who were stood just a few minutes away from us? Were they not at the firework display either? The local newspaper took photographs of the fireworks from right where we were standing and their Facebook page states "Christmas firework display in Bangor" below the photographs. Should I tell them they weren't at the display either? Also just to clarify for you a little more, when I say I was 15 minutes walk away from the safety barrier, I meant that is how long it would take for me to walk from where I was standing to the safety barriers, taking into consideration that I would have to walk around the buildings. I'm not sure how far away we were as the crow flys but I'm sure there's an app for that.


Can I just say, I really have absolutely no interest in if you was at a firework display or not, really, it makes no difference to my life in the slightest.

My only comment on the whole thing is is that it makes little sense for passers by to walk behind you and say taking a dog to one is cruel and your family agreeing, if in fact you wasn't even at one

I would suggest you ask yourself if and why you care where I read you was and why it matters to you what I or anyone else thinks about you being at a firework display or not and address that really, as you are putting a lot of energy into something that doesn't matter to me. Maybe you cling to things like this too much, like the fact you concentrate on this and those complete strangers having an opinion too. Sometimes you just need to move on and focus your energy elsewhere.

You have also bypassed, what I believe to be quite a few good suggestions in my post to continue talking about a place in a firework display I literally have no concern over any more and was barely bothered about in the first instance.

As the frozen song goes, let it go.


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

I have to say of all the things I worried about when deciding to have a dog SA was the one that I feared the most....... It must be horrible and having read many experiences of people with dogs who hve SA I can only say I have massive amount of respect for those who deal with this condition (right word?!) in their dog on a daily basis.

Mind you, as I frequently struggle with anxiety / stress / agoraphobia and depression I can empathise with dogs like Phoebe!! 

We are fortunate that our two are fine with being left, it's a big thing to know you can leave them and they'll be ok no that your house will be intact when you get back!

I am sensitive and have been really upset by forums before, not thick skinned at all, me!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

My opinion these days is that the best place for all animals on Bonfire Night is safely indoors.

From being a puppy, Rosie was completely unconcerned by fireworks. She would actually watch the sky through the window when the rockets went up, she wasn't one bit bothered.

When she was four years old, I was walking her, after Bonfire night, around the estate where I live and through some of the streets. As we were walking up one street, some kids let off a firework in one of the back alleys, it made a huge bang and was close enough that the noise caught Rosie unawares and terrified her.

Since then, she is very afraid of fireworks and has a miserable time during the days and weeks when they're going off.

What did the damage was a firework going off close enough to startle and shock her. If this should happen to a dog at a display, you could then well be stuck with a firework phobic dog for years to come.


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## Mr N (Nov 22, 2015)

It's been stated many times that the fireworks weren't the issue. It's people's attitude towards the SA that causes friction. 
There have been a lot of great posts from people that seem to understand what the situation is like and some posts that I think have been added for no other reason than they wanted to place blame on us or the breeder or the behaviourist. 
I had a PM from someone earlier and I stated there we have a very happy healthy dog who has an issue we need (and are) working on. 
Personally I think the convo on the fireworks needs to end (and possibly this whole thread) as there is little of any real value being talked about now. 
Also some of this has been better than a TV drama


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)




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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Blitz said:


> I am not sure how a dog can be 'diagnosed' as having SA. It is a made up term for a dog that does not like being alone.


Underlined is factually incorrect.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

MollySmith said:


> @Nettles I'm sorry but in order to be absolutely sure of the above post we need Phoebe herself online right now. She has learned to type right?!


Are you accusing me of not teaching my dog to type??? She can type perfectly well on the laptop but I'm using my phone and she has trouble with the touchscreen pad :Hilarious


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Mr N said:


> It's been stated many times that the fireworks weren't the issue. It's people's attitude towards the SA that causes friction.
> There have been a lot of great posts from people that seem to understand what the situation is like and some posts that I think have been added for no other reason than they wanted to place blame on us or the breeder or the behaviourist.
> I had a PM from someone earlier and I stated there we have a very happy healthy dog who has an issue we need (and are) working on.
> Personally I think the convo on the fireworks needs to end (and possibly this whole thread) as there is little of any real value being talked about now.
> Also some of this has been better than a TV drama


You still have a lot to learn oh young stalker. There is plenty of real value still to come in this thread.. BRING OUT THE GOATS


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> Can I just say, I really have absolutely no interest in if you was at a firework display or not, really, it makes no difference to my life in the slightest.
> 
> My only comment on the whole thing is is that it makes little sense for passers by to walk behind you and say taking a dog to one is cruel and your family agreeing, if in fact you wasn't even at one
> 
> ...


Hahaha :Hilarious for someone who has little interest in whether I went to a firework display or not, you took enough time to pick out the parts you didn't believe to be true and question them. I didn't understand why it was so important to you in the first place either tbh but as it seemed vital to you to know the precise details, and I didn't want someone to accuse me of being a liar, I explained in more detail.
Now you have the facts, you're not interested. Fair enough *shrug*


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)




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## Mr N (Nov 22, 2015)

Nettles said:


> View attachment 252483


I might be sorry I signed up...


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## Lyracollie (Mar 20, 2014)

Well...this thread sure blew up!
Guess you started your own fireworks display, @Nettles. 

Lyra has SA and it is a truly horrible thing to witness. People turn down social events all the time if they can't find a babysitter for their children, so what's so odd about doing the same for your dog?

My friends got a bit grumpy with me when I turned down a camping trip a couple of weeks ago, they went on to say that "You don't have to revolve your life around your dog" but I chose to get Lyra, and due to her issues I _do _have to revolve my life around her. It was my choice to take her on, and I have to stand by that, even if it means missing out on some social events (I'd honestly rather spend time with the dog anyway!)

As for the fireworks display - if Phoebe was happy, what's the issue with it?
I'd understand all the uproar if fireworks or loud noises upset her, but obviously they don't.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

StormyThai said:


>


Don't know about that, but just sold 2 pigs to someone as a birthday present for his wife! Yes, he seems to know what he's doing, a lovely new arc in a bit of woodland, not a totally unsuitable living room! As a bonus, one of them was a sow I had returned to me when her owner emigrated, I knew she was November, but when I rooted out ( no pun intended) her papers her birthday is the same as his wife's, so that's lovely. She's gone with a teenage gilt I also bred.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)




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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

emmaviolet said:


> As the frozen song goes, let it go.


Uh oh, you've just alienated every mum, dad, teacher and childminder who now has that tune in their head for the rest of the night!

Let it go
Let it go
Can't take that tune no more or or...


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Meezey said:


> View attachment 252484


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Lyracollie said:


> "You don't have to revolve your life around your dog" but I chose to get Lyra, and due to her issues I _do _have to revolve my life around her. It was my choice to take her on, and I have to stand by that, even if it means missing out on some social events


That's the way I see it too. We made the decision to get a pup and for me, that means any issues that arise are all part and parcel of that decision. We have no other choice but to deal with them as best we can.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Catharinem said:


> Don't know about that, but just sold 2 pigs to someone as a birthday present for his wife! Yes, he seems to know what he's doing, a lovely new arc in a bit of woodland, not a totally unsuitable living room! As a bonus, one of them was a sow I had returned to me when her owner emigrated, I knew she was November, but when I rooted out ( no pun intended) her papers her birthday is the same as his wife's, so that's lovely. She's gone with a teenage gilt I also bred.


Do they know pigs are for life, not just for birthdays? 
What a nice coincidence that one shares her birthday! Obviously a pair of pigs wouldn't be my ideal birthday present due to my lack of all pig knowledge or space for them to live, but awk that's sweet of the hubby if that's what his wife wants.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Meezey said:


> View attachment 252484


I laughed SO hard..


StormyThai said:


> View attachment 252485


and then I almost wet myself.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Nettles said:


> I laughed SO hard..
> 
> and then I almost wet myself.


These may help


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Not sure what's been going on here but I am closing this for a read through.
Okay - I have read through a lot of this and a lot of it need not have been said. However it seems to that people are over their tiffs and I will leave it as it is.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

This will be the last time I post on this thread, but wanted to clear a few things up from my perspective.

I mentioned Phoebe's breeding, not to "have a go" at her breeder, or to blame the breeder for her SA, but as a potentially relevant underlying reason behind her condition, which could have far reaching consequences for years to come. You dedication to the dog is unquestionable and I really don't wish to criticise you either for getting her.from a.byb, or for standing by her. In fact, hats off to you, because I couldn't live that.life.

Personally, I really don't care whether you consider yourself to have attended a FW.display or not. I said before that we went to a FW display on the Sunday before bonfire night (dogs left at home), but if I were.to post a picture of me at the display, people would probably state that we were at the fair with the display in the distance. In the grand scheme of things, does.it really matter?! 

Finally, I get the need to rant about what happened, but just because you post a thread wanting an understanding listening ear, doesn't necessarily mean that is what you are.going to get.in every one of the replies you receive (this is more for Mr N than nettles) and those who disagree have just as much right to their opinions as those who agree.

That, I think, is it. I've said my piece ... I don't believe I've "judged" anyone but perhaps others.disagree.


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## Mr N (Nov 22, 2015)

LinznMilly said:


> This will be the last time I post on this thread, but wanted to clear a few things up from my perspective.
> 
> I mentioned Phoebe's breeding, not to "have a go" at her breeder, or to blame the breeder for her SA, but as a potentially relevant underlying reason behind her condition, which could have far reaching consequences for years to come. You dedication to the dog is unquestionable and I really don't wish to criticise you either for getting her.from a.byb, or for standing by her. In fact, hats off to you, because I couldn't live that.life.
> 
> ...


I fully understand you can't know what to expect and throw a tantrum when people don't agree. My point was more how people disagreed / just had a go at playing the blame game. I don't think it takes much to be a decent human being and phrase replies in a manner that isn't aggressive or at least holds some value to the conversation. Again I know you can't control what over people say but some of what I read was disgusting and I felt the need to have my say. I disagree with people all the time but rarely fall out with anyone. 
None of this is directed at you personally by the way as I really don't know who said what and don't want to go back dissecting every post. People also clearly have history on here that I know nothing about so maybe there are certain people that cause friction between each other. 
Again none of this is directed at you personally so please don't take it that way


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Mr N said:


> I fully understand you can't know what to expect and throw a tantrum when people don't agree. My point was more how people disagreed / just had a go at playing the blame game. I don't think it takes much to be a decent human being and phrase replies in a manner that isn't aggressive or at least holds some value to the conversation. Again I know you can't control what over people say but some of what I read was disgusting and I felt the need to have my say. I disagree with people all the time but rarely fall out with anyone.
> None of this is directed at you personally by the way as I really don't know who said what and don't want to go back dissecting every post. People also clearly have history on here that I know nothing about so maybe there are certain people that cause friction between each other.
> Again none of this is directed at you personally so please don't take it that way


Uh oh @Mr N, are you feeling picked on for being a newbie? It's not what they say, it's how they say it :Hilarious Give over ya big eejit and welcome to the world of PF :Smuggrin


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## Mr N (Nov 22, 2015)

Nettles said:


> Uh oh @Mr N, are you feeling picked on for being a newbie? It's not what they say, it's how they say it :Hilarious Give over ya big eejit and welcome to the world of PF :Smuggrin


No not feeling picked on and it's not my fault if you didn't understand the intent of my post...


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Pfffffftttt so much for it having moved on.....

Maybe it was better remaining closed...


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)




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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I thought this was back on an even keel and reopened it but quite honestly I wish I hadn't bothered.


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