# Victoria Stillwell - it's me or the dog



## Debxan (Jan 9, 2011)

Has anyone been watching the above series? Think they are repeats but interesting. 

Anyone have any views on V's methods? She seems to make it look so easy! Am thinking of buying a new puppy later in the year (have had two dogs before - one rescue, one from a pup 25 years ago). I can see training ideas have moved on but would be interested to hear what you all think.


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## DirtyGertie (Mar 12, 2011)

I had my first dog 40 years ago (Barbara Woodhouse era) and yes, training has definitely moved on since then and for the better.

I have seen VS, the repeats on Sky 3, and I do like her style, I've adopted this method of training with my Bichon.

She does make it look easy but we only see a very small part of it in the programme and it does make it look like it all happens very quickly but there would be much goes on we don't see and it takes time and lots of reinforcing/practise.

In a lot of cases these programmes show that the owners need training as much as the dogs!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

i don't think Victoria is perfect, but she is a heckuvan improvement over the Other Brands of tv-training :lol: 
forcing, coercing, "dominating" physically or emotionally, intimidating the dog, acting scary, confronting the dog 
in an adversarial fashion - it's all _*dramatic! and exciting!*, but is it *dog-training*?_

dogs need to learn to behave acceptably - manners. 
dogs need to have behaviors on-cue - training. 
dogs need fun, exercise, social contact, enrichment... we can *invest* as much time as we want in our dogs, 
but we do tend to get out of our dogs as much as we put in: minimal time spent = minimal joy out.

owners who engage in team-sports with their dogs [disc-dog, ski-jor, freestyle, tracking...] 
get a lot more satisfaction from their dog-relationship than someone who takes the dog for two 
20-minute walks a day [assuming the weather is not 'too' nasty, whatever that might be].


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I think she's pretty good not perfect obviously but she was the first trainer I saw that used positive reinforcement like that and it was back when she was still talking about dominance. She does let the owners know if they're not treating their dogs right be it not walking them or like today letting them toilet all over the house . She also does take a lot of the dogs to activity classes agility, rally search and rescue with one I think especially the higher energy ones. She talks more sense than a certain "rehabilitator" and the dogs are so much happier when she trains them too. No dramatic macho wrestling or 20 bites


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

She is well worth watching and her methods do get things done, and with no harm to the dogs. That is the important thing. Sometimes I wonder about a certain method, when there are easier ways to achieve what you want. For instance, the one that was on last night (pick tv) she was trying to teach a mongrel to sit, but she just held the treat and waited until he had sat down. Personally I would have drawn the treat up till he followed it with his nose, had to sit, then used the treat and command. But that is just nitpicking, really. 

I like the way she tells people off, personally. Usually she is fairly diplomatic about it but sometimes she will have a real go at them and it is usually the man in the family. Once she was trying to teach the owner how to deal with his reactive dachsund, turned round and he was texting on his phone. She went nuts, gave him the dog and marched away.

At least she points out what the owners can and cannot expect with their dog, and she teaches the owners how to train, not just does it all herself to make herself look good.

She also seems to care about cats as much as dogs, which is nice. Where she has had a conflict between a dog and a cat, she hasn't forced the poor cat to meet up with the dog. The Other One seems to treat cats like any other object, and it doesn't matter that the poor thing is terrified.

I think she is great, very helpful for the average dog owner to watch.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

You can train a command either by luring or capturing/shaping. Most clicker trainers use what she did because it gets the dog to think more they have to work out what you want them to do rather than being told. I'm amazed she doesn't shout more I think I'd be in court on assault charges with some of the owners she has to deal with. The woman that ran a weimaraner rescue yet never walked or did anything with her own 4 then used a shock collar to stop one barking rather than realising she was bored out of her mind and prong collars on the rare occasion she did actually walk them.


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

I like watching her but you need to remember each programme is about 3-4 weeks minimum worth of training.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> You can train a command either by luring or capturing/shaping. Most clicker trainers use what she did because it gets the dog to think more they have to work out what you want them to do rather than being told. I'm amazed she doesn't shout more I think I'd be in court on assault charges with some of the owners she has to deal with. The woman that ran a weimaraner rescue yet never walked or did anything with her own 4 then used a shock collar to stop one barking rather than realising she was bored out of her mind and prong collars on the rare occasion she did actually walk them.


Yes, I can see that, but she wasn't using a clicker. I think to capture a behaviour like that it is much easier to use a clicker, whereas just to teach the command it is better to lure. But we all have our different ways and nothing wrong with either.

As for the Weimaraner woman, I felt like shaking her. She does all this work for Weimy rescue because she is supposed to love them so much, but treats her own with methods bordering on abuse in my opinion. She knows perfectly well that they are very high energy dogs, yet she never walks them, keeps one locked in a crate all day and uses a shock collar on the one that kept barking at the fence. It didn't have any lasting effect, either, did it? He kept going back to the fence. Just goes to prove that aversives are useless for long term training.

First thing VS did was to get rid of the bloody shock collar. Stupid woman also said she had to keep the one in the crate because he had separation anxiety, though how that is supposed to help I do not know. Turned out he was just bored out of his brain.

Have you seen any of the UK ones? They are older, and I wouldn't recommend them for new people to watch as there is a lot of pack leader rubbish which she now makes fun of, but there was a woman on one who had bought a chihuaha because he looked like a cat and she thought he would behave like a cat! She couldn't understand why he didn't groom himself:


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

I love her methods of training and I have got some good tips from the show. I just find her slightly annoying, and i dont know why


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

The weimaraner with "seperation anxiety" was just bored as well that was the one that broke into the cupboards and got food out right? I'm surprise VS didn't smack her I would have

That woman I actually couldn't believe that she had bought the chi because it was the same size as a cat and looked similar then tried to treat it like a cat . No wonder it had problems. Even when she talked about the pack leader stuff it wasn't pin them to the floor it was eat before them etc but still using treats and positive reinforcement.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> The weimaraner with "seperation anxiety" was just bored as well that was the one that broke into the cupboards and got food out right? I'm surprise VS didn't smack her I would have
> 
> That woman I actually couldn't believe that she had bought the chi because it was the same size as a cat and looked similar then tried to treat it like a cat . No wonder it had problems. Even when she talked about the pack leader stuff it wasn't pin them to the floor it was eat before them etc but still using treats and positive reinforcement.


Don't forget the woman with the full grown jr who messed all over the house. She hadn't housetrained him because she thought he would figure it out for himself! I am not sure that is a behaviour you can capture with a clicker, is it?

There was a bloke the other week with four neapolitan mastiffs, destroying the house, hadn't been walked for two years.

There was girl with a little bichon and a disabled mother. She said she kept the dog in a crate in her room all day, when in fact it was a cat basket, the sort you use for travelling to the vet etc. Poor little thing didn't have a chew toy, or water or anything, but VS put up a baby gate so she at least had the whole room, gave her toys and stuff, and trained her so that the mother in the wheelchair could handle her.

These people do not deserve to have animals.

I don't know how she keeps from smashing them, personally.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

The ones today a little chi/pom mix that toileted everywhere. She got that light thing that shows up body fluids and it was everywhere on the kids beds and everything. Had they actually tried to house train him? No . Or the woman with the bulldog that had scars from a shock collar that had been put on it really high as a puppy  so that was too harsh she switching to constantly pressing the button on a spray collar spraying citronella into her eyes . No wonder the poor thing was dog reactive


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> The ones today a little chi/pom mix that toileted everywhere. She got that light thing that shows up body fluids and it was everywhere on the kids beds and everything. Had they actually tried to house train him? No . Or the woman with the bulldog that had scars from a shock collar that had been put on it really high as a puppy  so that was too harsh she switching to constantly pressing the button on a spray collar spraying citronella into her eyes . No wonder the poor thing was dog reactive


Oh, God yes. I remember the poor little bulldog. She just kept pressing that spray button all the time, for no reason. Victoria did lose patience I think and asked her why she was spraying him when he hadn't actually done anything.

Some of them are so dense, I just hang my head in my hands.


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

I do agree with some of the stuff ceaser talks about like being calm and assertive. But i dont like all the pinning them to the floor and the other crap he does. Dogs aint stupid enouth to think we are one of their "pack" just someone to respect and give them boundries. Happy dogs are well trained dogs. It's better to have a dog do as you say because they want to please you rather that because they are scared of you.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Some of them are clearly trying to do their best but what they're doing is wrong so they take her advice and the dog does better. Others I totally despair of  and of course some of them know much more than she does


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Marley boy said:


> I do agree with some of the stuff ceaser talks about like being calm and assertive. But i dont like all the pinning them to the floor and the other crap he does. Dogs aint stupid enouth to think we are one of their "pack" just someone to respect and give them boundries. Happy dogs are well trained dogs. It's better to have a dog do as you say because they want to please you rather that because they are scared of you.


Exactly. Would I want a dog to listen to me because it respects me, ie is scared I'm going to yank on a choke chain/prong collar, shock it, kick it in the side, or would I rather have it happy and eager to work because I've trained it kindly. Such a hard choice really. I guess some people just like the power trip of dominating their dogs.

CM does some good things encourages spaying and neutering, tells people to walk their dogs, the calm assertive energy is a wonderful thing, he does a lot of work for the "demon" breeds and he encourages rescuing. Apart from that no


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

The more recent series with her in the US are better than the original UK ones, which featured fair bit of hamming it up in exagerated way with close shots of leather boots, Dominatrix overtones and bad jokes that the Director must have thought were funny.

They're the best Dog improvement show, I have seen on TV, with a wide range of problems, feasible solutions with realistic prognosis. No magic quick fixes, that don't work later and no wasted time on mystic BS. The shows do portray honestly the likely difficulties the owners face, when they try to implement the advice. The shows are not as tense to watch as the National Geographic show, as she doesn't get bitten or risk confrontation with the dogs so there's less suspense.



newfiesmum said:


> Yes, I can see that, but she wasn't using a clicker. I think to capture a behaviour like that it is much easier to use a clicker, whereas just to teach the command it is better to lure


I think there's reasons why she chose the method she did. Luring a sit works quickly, but tends to leave you with a hand signal cue, rather than a verbal "Sit!" command. Clickers are a gizmo, and you need to work on timing, that means there's something to go wrong, the owners are not practiced dog trainers.

Keeping it totally simple, the clients and audience are seeing a dog that wants to be "good", without the distraction and risk of being mislead in what they think the clicker does. The explanation of the clicker would take a significant chunk out of every show and soon be boring with repetition.

These dogs on the shows, tend to have had their needs neglected. By using the verbal praise and food rewards, they're working on that in a natural way. Often "Clicker Training" clips on youtube show a rather dry, focussed technical training, which may be very efficient but is not the warmest. People can only focus on improving one thing at a time when they're learning.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> CM does some good things encourages spaying and neutering, tells people to walk their dogs, the calm assertive energy is a wonderful thing, he does a lot of work for the "demon" breeds and he encourages rescuing. Apart from that no


Cesar communicates quite well with the people, he doesn't make them feel stupid, and avoids being judgemental. The bottom line is, I think his clients do like him, and even where his methods haven't worked in clip at end of show, they fudge it rather than pin it on him.

Whilst I think Calm-assertive energy, is better than the frantic, inconsistent, panicy sort of yelling that goes on so often. I'm getting more and more skeptical about the real value of it as a phrase.

Does anyone who trained and cares for the needs of their dog, really need to be psyching themselves up to project the right "energy"? We all relax and the dogs know it, they don't immediately start a prison riot just because we're not asserting ourselves.

Cesar, likes the "demon breeds" probably the relative insensitivity of them, means he gets better results. I've seen Cesar looking rather uncomfortable or even frightened with more nerve prone, sensitive breeds, like Collies and once with a very gentle lurcher in the swimming pool.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

When his method haven't worked they blame the owners. I'm sure in some cases it is the owners fault he has his share of completely incompetent bordering on cruel owners the singer with the boerboel springs to mind  but it can't be all the owners fault. He does seem more happy to train the bully/mastiff types than the akitas or border collies. I noticed when he has to train the mastiffs or the akita/other big fluffy dog mix he never tries to alpha roll them when they're "dominant"


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Well having, suggested why a clicker hadn't been used, the very next episode I saw, had one. It featured a Bulldog which had been put in a shock collar as a puppy, and then had an aversive Citronella collar used during walks.

Clicker training was advised in this household and it was noticeable how sharp the sits were and such, with a huge improvement in the whole deamour of the dog and relationship with owners and their friends.

It should be obvious to anyone, who sees the after of a dog rehabed this way, the superiority to the Pack Leader based methods. The dog was just visibly more relaxed and happier, rather than kept in thrall to the owners.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

That poor bulldog  what cruel trainers putting a shock collar on a puppy. She was so much happier once Victoria trained her


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Well having, suggested why a clicker hadn't been used, the very next episode I saw, had one. It featured a Bulldog which had been put in a shock collar as a puppy, and then had an aversive Citronella collar used during walks.
> 
> Clicker training was advised in this household and it was noticeable how sharp the sits were and such, with a huge improvement in the whole deamour of the dog and relationship with owners and their friends.
> 
> It should be obvious to anyone, who sees the after of a dog rehabed this way, the superiority to the Pack Leader based methods. The dog was just visibly more relaxed and happier, rather than kept in thrall to the owners.


That is the episode we mentioned earlier. The woman's "best friend" hoped Victoria would agree with her that the dog should be got rid of! Fat chance. I know one thing, she wouldn't have been my best friend for long! Love me, love my dogs


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

To be fair that dog shouldn't have been with her if she was going to train it like that . The woman was justified in her concern if she didn't know that dog aggressive meant the the dog wouldn't automatically be child aggressive


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

Back to topic - if you like what you see and think it would work for you, then go with it. 

Be mindful that not every method works best all the time for every dog and you may have to occasionally look at an alternative method, and also it depends on what you want/need from your dog.

Don't know why, but VS rubs me up the wrong way, but that doesn't detract from what she does, I just find her irritating to watch.


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## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

I've seen a few shows and had a link to a website showing full episodes, but I lost it. 

I like seeing anyone that uses positive training methods. I don't know about anyone else, but I just can't walk around being calm and assertive all the time, I have other emotions too and I don't want to have to hide in the bathroom so my dog isn't exposed to them.

I like her outfits too.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

All dogs need different approaches. But positive reinforcement methodology caters for a lot of approaches. I don't like it when people have a one-dimensional view of R+/P- methods and, when their approach doesn't work, the only other method is the use of aversives. Aversives never need to be used if you are creative enough.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

I agree Rottiefan but I don't agree that aversives are never needed. I personally am lucky that over 1000 dogs in i haven't had to reach for them and have always been able to devise R+ based behaviour modification strategies.


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## Debxan (Jan 9, 2011)

Irish Setter Gal said:


> Back to topic - if you like what you see and think it would work for you, then go with it.
> 
> Be mindful that not every method works best all the time for every dog and you may have to occasionally look at an alternative method, and also it depends on what you want/need from your dog.
> 
> Don't know why, but VS rubs me up the wrong way, but that doesn't detract from what she does, I just find her irritating to watch.


Yes perhaps that is the answer. Different methods for different dogs/people. I like her kindness to the dogs but glad someone suggested that a programme is actually 3 weeks training. Was beginning to feel I might be a bit inadequate when I get a new puppy!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

I know some dog people have no time for her - as she is not really a 'dog' person - but we have picked up and used some of her methods - one in particular being 'recall' in wide open spaces - running madly in the opposite direction shouting like a banshee - and yes - it works a treat (even if you do feel like a prat )

ETA -in respect of training methods - so much really does depend on the individual dog - our pup (not yet hit adolescence - almost has us worried he is so good) - and in fairness - the rest of my gang - while a bit lively when visitors arrive are, in the main, pretty good - but my youngest bitch really is a heller - and *very* difficult to get through to - she gets herself into all sorts of scrapes while her aunty 'stands watch'!!! (you wouldn't believe it unless you actually saw it) - and granny is really good at grassing the naughty ones up:lol:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

swarthy said:


> I know some dog people have no time for her - as she is not really a 'dog' person - but we have picked up and used some of her methods - one in particular being 'recall' in wide open spaces - running madly in the opposite direction shouting like a banshee - and yes - it works a treat (even if you do feel like a prat )


She always makes a great fuss of the dogs when they are behaving, she obviously likes dogs, just doesn't like being licked and jumped on. I love a nice big wet kiss, but not all people do, not even doggy people.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> She always makes a great fuss of the dogs when they are behaving, she obviously likes dogs, just doesn't like being licked and jumped on. I love a nice big wet kiss, but not all people do, not even doggy people.


It wasn't me that said it - it was others - she has apparently never owned a dog - and very easy to 'do something' for the camera if you are getting paid for it


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

She doesn't own dogs but she's fostered many sick or older dogs for rescues.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> She doesn't own dogs but she's fostered many sick or older dogs for rescues.


Please NOTE - *this is what I've been told *- I have no thoughts on the woman either way - it makes for entertaining TV (or used to)


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I know just pointing that out. She does seem to care about dogs a lot from what I've seen and read.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Stillwell has owned and does own dog/s, I believe she currently has a Lab but I could be wrong on the breed/type.

I am not a fan of hers and don't believe her to be a very technically savvy trainer. 
I don't believe that the R+ set should have to settle for a cynically produced TV show that is touted as the anti-DW : But I do think that her current US based seasons are the most dog friendly training on TV on this side of the pond unfortunately.

I worry that the perception of R+ based training is taken from viewing this show and this trainer


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> She always makes a great fuss of the dogs when they are behaving, she obviously likes dogs, just doesn't like being licked and jumped on. I love a nice big wet kiss, but not all people do, not even doggy people.


And they are other peoples dogs, it wouldn't be the greatest idea if she lolled about and stroked them all the time, would undermine the work ethic in rehabilitating the *problem owners* so their dogs don't resort to behavioural problems.

Newfiesmum, I am also wondering if you'ld like the big wet kisses so much, if you saw how often they eat deer poo and such. Try it after a jaunt round my local park? 

The fact is, by end of many of the shows, the dogs do like Victoria and are enthusiastic to be with her. This despite her not having benefit of growing up with a dog in her household.



tripod said:


> I worry that the perception of R+ based training is taken from viewing this show and this trainer


TV and papers are always rubbish and missing crucial points when you are a real expert on something.

They do seem attracted to maverick bizarre dog trainers, looking for outlier personalities I guess to be more entertaining. Compared to that crap, "Dog Borstal", VS is a relief. If there's widely available better info, showing more technical savvyness, then we have to keep sharing it


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

It really doesn't matter whether you like her or think she is not doing things the way you would do them, does it? She is getting the message across that there are positive ways of training a dog, ways that do no harm.

When I was walking my two the other day I passed a woman with a fairly large dog, using distraction with treats, to get her dog's focus on to her while mine went passed. I imagine she had got this idea from VS show. Had I seen her jerking the dog's choke chain (which he did not have) or forcing confrontation, I would know she had been watching the wrong show or going to the wrong trainer. Obviously her dog did not like other dogs much and she was distracting him with this method and it was working. It is possible she never took him anywhere near other dogs before watching VS, now he is learning. That has to be for the good, doesn't it?

Also on her shows the first thing she does is get rid of any aversive collars or gadgets, thus demonstrating that they are cruel and there are better ways.
She may not have any "qualifications" but she gets results and points owners in the right direction.


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## nutmeg (Sep 13, 2009)

I really like her, and she seems a lot better than some other trainers.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> It really doesn't matter whether you like her or think she is not doing things the way you would do them, does it? She is getting the message across that there are positive ways of training a dog, ways that do no harm.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> ...


Wow, ok I never said anything about her 'qualifications' nor that my opinion is the be all and end all - we were asked for our opinions of her show and I gave mine & my reasons. 
I never said that its about her doing things 'my way'.

But since you bring up qualifications why is it ok to pick on, for example, CM for his lack of quals and not Stillwell?

I also concurred that hers is the best show (recent US seasons) that we have here, certainly in relation to the other TV training shows on. At least hers doesn't have a 'don't try this at home' warning  and thankfully it doesn't need it.

But I do stand by my opinion that R+ based training needs better and more varied trainers to be on TV. Afterall aversive based training has lots of options giving people the impression that this is varied and that R+ methodologies are fixed.
Neither of which is true.

I am actually not a fan of TV as a medium for training at all, thank you very much TV producers and TV tricks 

I treat all TV trainers (all trainers indeed) equally and will be as picky with their methods as I am about CM for example. IMOTD is not the best representation of R+ based training and thats a pity.

Andrea Arden has had a show in the US (may still do, Terry?) and I for one would love to have her show here. Don't think it has been syndicated though but that may happen (paws crossed).

Gosh, why is it when the TV trainers come out, the gloves come off?!:001_tt2::smilewinkgrin::lol:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

tripod said:


> Wow, ok I never said anything about her 'qualifications' nor that my opinion is the be all and end all - we were asked for our opinions of her show and I gave mine & my reasons.
> I never said that its about her doing things 'my way'.
> 
> But since you bring up qualifications why is it ok to pick on, for example, CM for his lack of quals and not Stillwell?
> ...


I'm sorry, Anne. Perhaps it came out a little more argumentative than I intended, and I really was not having a go at you. You obviously know what you are doing, but my point is that she has brought the idea of positive training to the public eye and she is all we have in the UK to do that.

I would like to see other positive trainers on tv here as well, but they don't seem to make for good tv so we don't get them. Unfortunately, VS's shows are all repeats now and sometimes they dig up the old ones from the UK, with old fashioned ideas which doesn't help progress things.

I did object to one US show where she made fun of the idea of being pack leader, which a client had been told. I thought that was a bit cheeky, considering she used to do the same thing herself. Might have been better to point out that we have moved on from that.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Apologies Newfiesmum  didn't mean to get in there lol!

We are pretty much in the same place on this  Thumbs up that R+ methodologies are on TV and also that it would be great to have more on the boob-tube


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

tripod said:


> Apologies Newfiesmum  didn't mean to get in there lol!
> 
> We are pretty much in the same place on this  Thumbs up that R+ methodologies are on TV and also that it would be great to have more on the boob-tube


People for some reason always assume that if you have a puppy, you have never had a dog before and must need their advice, and round here that means they are avid watchers of the bloody dog whisperer. I got so fed up with people telling me I wasn't to let him on the sofa or he will think he is the pack leader, I tried to avoid people because I would have ended up having a row.

There is a girl I know (old schoolfriend of my daughter) who has set herself up as a dog trainer and started spouting on about how wonderful CM is, and how VS gets on her nerves. I told her I thought he should be charged with animal abuse and got all the standard crap about how "they do that in the wild".

People's perception of dog training needs to be changed, and we need more positive reward trainers on telly to do that, as they all seem to think they know everything from watching telly.

When anyone tells me I shouldn't let my dogs on the sofa, I ask them how they are supposed to sit on my lap and have a cuddle if they can't get on the sofa? It is just not logical! And where did that come from anyway? How many sofa's and beds is a wild pack of wolves going to come across in the wild? None of this stuff makes any sense but they still keep preaching it:


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

This link answers a few questions about how she got into being on TV etc It's Me or the Dog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And this one gives her background and clears up the fact she owns a Rescue Lab called Sadie Victoria Stilwell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

As much as I think she's doing well to spread the R+ methodology and trying to give people a kick up the arse, I have never liked her that much. 

In her earlier programmes, she preaches some pack-theory stuff and, even though she used proven methods, she was all about the dominatrix image and I just had to laugh!  And even still, if she had CM's communication style, I think she would be better liked. She does come across as a bit of a b*tch! 

I like Dr Ian Dunbar's style of training in a suit. Nothing scary or overpowering about that- yet he gets the job done and is a great communicator. 

On the whole, I just don't trust things on TV, TBH.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> As much as I think she's doing well to spread the R+ methodology and trying to give people a kick up the arse, I have never liked her that much.
> 
> In her earlier programmes, she preaches some pack-theory stuff and, even though she used proven methods, she was all about the dominatrix image and I just had to laugh!  And even still, if she had CM's communication style, I think she would be better liked. She does come across as a bit of a b*tch!
> 
> ...


I do believe that if you called in a trainer or behaviourist who spoke to you like Victoria does sometimes, you would show her the door pretty quickly! People only put up with it because she is famous and they are on the telly. I can understand sometimes why she loses her rag, but most of the time she will have a real go at people, like telling them they should never have got the dog in the first place. It is too late for that, and I think you need to be a bit more diplomatic, but it is this that makes for good television.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

I agree Newfiesmum - we don't get to speak to pet owners this way, even though sometimes I want to shake them  But if I want to 'preach' R+ based ideas about their dogs, then I have to apply it to the owners too :

I had a 5month old Sibe puppy turn up to class in a prong collar on the advice of the vet last week   and I was really wanting to hit the roof. I almost did and certainly went over board as I have invested soooooo much with these people. 
This is a classic example of the wrong dog in the wrong home (15 yer old girl 'owns' the dog and ignores parent's advice re care). 
When they started class at 12 weeks old I was convinced the dog was going to bite someone, at this age so fear aggressive and reactive - one of the worst I have seen. The dog has improved amazingly but they think they need to 'correct' normal puppy behaviour because they don't have an understanding and this person does not have the cognitive ability to do this alone, without guidance.
I have spent about 40 mins per week with them one on one as well as in class of 10 puppies. I have also arranged a free session in their home as the course end is coming up. 

If I had lost it, which was sooo tempting, I would never seen them again. But I have taken it really slow with suggesting different things but this nearly did me in. The vet had also recommended a shock collar board and train place 

Once I have calmed sufficiently I will be approaching the vet and board and train people for this unacceptable advice.

They have booked the dog into a R+ doggie daycare that I am involved with and then I will do the one on one too so there is hope but this is remedial care and I don't know how long this is going to work for....


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

tripod said:


> I agree Newfiesmum - we don't get to speak to pet owners this way, even though sometimes I want to shake them  But if I want to 'preach' R+ based ideas about their dogs, then I have to apply it to the owners too :
> 
> I had a 5month old Sibe puppy turn up to class in a prong collar on the advice of the vet last week   and I was really wanting to hit the roof. I almost did and certainly went over board as I have invested soooooo much with these people.
> This is a classic example of the wrong dog in the wrong home (15 yer old girl 'owns' the dog and ignores parent's advice re care).
> ...


This story is so wrong on so many levels. What is wrong with parents letting a 15 year old have a dog at all, if she is that stubborn she cannot listen to advice, and why, or why do people go to their vet for training advice?

When I got Joshua at eight weeks, and had a long lecture from the breeder about not leaving him and Ferdie alone in case of accident, him being a growing giant breed, my vet told me to "let them play rough". Not that I took any notice, but vets in general know very little about giant breeds. The same vet told someone I know to feed her little bichon pup on Bakers!

For medical things, he is excellent, but I would never take his advice on anything else.

This girl is lucky she came to you and so is the dog. I do hope you can get through to her.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

tripod said:


> Andrea Arden has had a show in the US (may still do, Terry?) and I for one would love
> to have her show here. Don't think it has been syndicated though but that may happen (paws crossed).


Andrea Arden was the 'resident trainer' on an early general-pets show that broadcast from NYC; Animal Planet 
was just getting started, and they were still at the time, child-friendly - it was pre-Steve Irwin fare.

then she was the trainer on Underdog to WonderDog but that only seemed to last one season - 
i think Animal Planet dropped it then, it became one of the daytime re-run series shown in the AM. 
that was a 'team' show, with a trainer, groomer, contractor/carpenter, & another PR-type something - 
so Andrea did not get much air-time, everything was generalities with a before [dog in shelter], a teeny 
bit of in-between, and the dog being placed & the dog-house [custom-built] revealed; if U were lucky, 
there'd be a short clip of the dog in the home with the family, or a snapshot of the dog a month later, etc. 
i think 'Underdog to WonderDog' was 2007 or 2008?...

it was pretty light on the HOW part of the training, & not very focused on the amount of change via B-Mod.

anyone have more current info?


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> I do believe that if you called in a trainer or behaviourist who spoke to you like Victoria does sometimes, you would show her the door pretty quickly! People only put up with it because she is famous and they are on the telly. I can understand sometimes why she loses her rag, but most of the time she will have a real go at people, like telling them they should never have got the dog in the first place


Thank god someone is in a position to tell these people and the viewers exactly that!

How often are trainers frustrated because clients don't do the homework seriously, or I guess behavourists because their thought out recommendations are not implemented concientiously.

Obviously someone engaged as a client, has to be more diplomatic than having a go on camera or these family meetings, but quite often the owners have been blatantly stupid, negligent and neglectful to point of cruelty.

The format reminds me of that Nanny, seeing child care cases, is it Jo Frost? Think someone clueful recommended thatTV program seeing similiarities to dog care and re-training them.


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

I really like her! I'm sure there's lots we don't see on the program, such as possible bonding methods?

I think owners who have a misbehaving dog, aren't bonded that well so I just assume so does spent a lot of her time teaching and helping the owner bond with their dog again, which in turn makes them more calmer thus the dog is more calmer.
I also think she tries a few different methods with each dog before she finds one that works, but then it wouldn't have so many viewers I don't think xD

It's nice to see she doesn't always do the same method with every dog.

For a really randy bulldog she used to put him in a 'sin bin' to calm down, never seen that before. Alot of methods she uses alot, such as folding arms and turning her back when a dog jumps, but I like the variety and how she observes them.


I saw a repeat the other day, a dog aggressive doberman. They were out in the park, man, woman, VS and the dog. A passerby with a dog came, the doberman barking mad trying to get at this dog, slipped his collar and ran towards this dog. The bloke (who has a very close relationship with the dog) shouted his name once and he came bounded back. VS said "You train years for that, that's amazing"

Instead of "RIGHT LET'S GO NOW YOU NAUGHTY DOG!"


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> The format reminds me of that Nanny, seeing child care cases, is it Jo Frost? Think someone clueful recommended thatTV program seeing similiarities to dog care and re-training them.


To be honest, I quite like Supernanny. Apart from her use of the naughty step, I prefer a time out and I'd also never force my child to say sorry! I believe being brought up correctly they would say it of their own accord, what on Earth does it teach the child when you have to force them to say it.

Granted only 50% of the time my daughter will only say sorry of her own accord, but I'd rather that than her not understanding why she has to say it.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

NicoleW said:


> I think owners who have a misbehaving dog, aren't bonded that well so I just assume so does spent a lot of her time teaching and helping the owner bond with their dog again, which in turn makes them more calmer thus the dog is more calmer


Totally agree with you on the vareity. I'm not so sure about poorly bonded dogs only misbehaving, because at times a dog is well bonded but does things that don't look wonderful in certain situations for all kinds of other reasons.

Sometimes it's simply, they haven't been taught good behaviour, and wind up indulged (don't want to quote anyone on rules, structure and all that lol).

Othertimes, the dog reluctant to follow and trying to slink off, is trying to avoid the car, or may be a dog bites accidentally in stress of a situation.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

I must admit I like the programme because it makes me feel like I'm actually doing ok with my dog and that I'm really lucky to have him. 
Some of the ideas were useful as well for a first time owner.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

i have never seen 'Supernanny', so i cannot express an opinion there - 
i did used to cringe at the Doministress outfits that Vic first wore, but i would lay dollars to donuts, that was 
a *producer* or someone's brilliant idea, not Victoria's own choice. 

i also winced when she ate out of a [brand-new] S/S dog-bowl before feeding the dogs in one household, 
or encouraged the owners to eat a saltine or summat over the dog's bowl before giving it to the dog - 
it's needless & silly, *but it is not painful or harmful - * nobody is being abusive, dogs are not hurt, 
there's no *dumbinance* going on, it's just mildly embarrassing, :lol: which i will take over pain, etc, 
Any Day of the Week, any Week of the Year. :thumbup: also blessedly, she does not do it anymore. ~whew~...


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> i have never seen 'Supernanny', so i cannot express an opinion there -
> i did used to cringe at the Doministress outfits that Vic first wore, but i would lay dollars to donuts, that was
> a *producer* or someone's brilliant idea, not Victoria's own choice.
> 
> ...




They were very old programmes in which she used to do that with the eating. I remember our trainer 25 years ago telling me to eat first, but I can't say I ever bothered. Does the dog even notice? She's also appeared in more normal clothing in the newer programmes. There are a few things that irritate me on a personal level, like when she first did her US programmes an sort of half American accent came out and I thought she hadn't really lived there long enough to pick that up. And that pony tail would drive me nuts, but these are not professional criticisms so are irrelevant.

There aren't any petitions or Facebook groups trying to get _her_ off the telly, are there? I think the Other One has got worse in his barbaric methods instead of better. When I used to watch him I only ever saw him use a shock collar once, and that was to stop the dog from chasing tractor wheels and maybe getting himself killed. And he said he didn't like using them. So it seems the more he is criticised for his methods, the worse they get.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Supernanny is prob my fave of these reality type advice shows, other than she annoys me because she pronounces so many words really strangely!

She gets R+, the relevance of building relationships, well timed and appropriate aversives, the need and importance of appropriate outlets for normal behaviour and is supportive to all involved.

That's a pity about Andrea Arden - thought her show would have had more clout. I have worked with her very very briefly and thought she was amazing and very TV suitable. Would love her to get her own TV show and have it on over here.

Re that Sibe, so much wrong in this scenario not to mention the impressionability of teh owner to try anything suggested - but who is to know to doubt the vet  
So frustrating but I still have a chance at bringing this back from the brink and preventing this dog ending up injuring someone and/or ending up in the pound...paws crossed


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## katie200 (May 11, 2009)

i like watching her she has some good tips on training


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## Colliefan (Mar 25, 2011)

I am really enjoying her show. In fact I watched the other man first and had recorded a load of episodes on Sky+ and I had to delete them all after watching a few. 
But I like VS training methods and think it is a great show.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I have never seen it, I must make an effort.



swarthy said:


> I know some dog people have no time for her - as she is not really a 'dog' person - but we have picked up and used some of her methods - one in particular being 'recall' in wide open spaces - running madly in the opposite direction shouting like a banshee - and yes - it works a treat (even if you do feel like a prat )
> 
> :


But that is the way I was taught 40 years ago and the way I have always told people - nothing new in that one.



newfiesmum said:


> It really doesn't matter whether you like her or think she is not doing things the way you would do them, does it? She is getting the message across that there are positive ways of training a dog, ways that do no harm.
> 
> When I was walking my two the other day I passed a woman with a fairly large dog, using distraction with treats, to get her dog's focus on to her while mine went passed. I imagine she had got this idea from VS show. Had I seen her jerking the dog's choke chain (which he did not have) or forcing confrontation, I would know she had been watching the wrong show or going to the wrong trainer. Obviously her dog did not like other dogs much and she was distracting him with this method and it was working. It is possible she never took him anywhere near other dogs before watching VS, now he is learning. That has to be for the good, doesn't it?


that too was the way I would have taught a dog that was wary/aggressive with other dog - even 40 years ago.



NicoleW said:


> I also think she tries a few different methods with each dog before she finds one that works, but then it wouldn't have so many viewers I don't think xD
> 
> It's nice to see she doesn't always do the same method with every dog.
> 
> "


that is the answer isnt it. Each dog is different. In a class situation you might have to teach one method to the class but you should then go round each handler and dog and make sure it was the right method for them. No point struggling to get through to any animal, or human, when they dont understand what you are asking.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Blitz said:


> I have never seen it, I must make an effort.
> 
> But that is the way I was taught 40 years ago and the way I have always told people - nothing new in that one.
> 
> ...


Certainly everyone needs teaching differently. I know that from 20 years as a driving instructor; you cannot expect every pupil to understand the same way as the last one.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

> Supernanny is prob my fave of these reality type advice shows, other than she annoys me because she pronounces so many words really strangely!


Tell me about it 

It's completely unasseptable :wink:


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I quite like a lot of supernanny's techniques but the whole forced apology thing I don't like. Especially if it isn't the kids fault.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Blitz said:


> I have never seen it, I must make an effort.
> 
> But that is the way I was taught 40 years ago and the way I have always told people - nothing new in that one.
> 
> ...


If you want to see it it's on sky3 everyday at 7pm I think


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