# Plane Crash in French Alps



## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Shocked and saddened to hear another plane crash....

144 passengers all feared dead in a remote part of the French Alps.

Germanwings airliner 4U 9525 crashes in French Alps - BBC News


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

It's a reliable low-cost airline, flying a reliable plane.
The investigation will probably take a very long time.

Very sad for the passengers and crew.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

silvi said:


> It's a reliable low-cost airline, flying a reliable plane.
> The investigation will probably take a very long time.
> 
> Very sad for the passengers and crew.


Looks like a older aircraft but was a branch off company from Lufthansa I believe who as you say one would think reliable.


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## Valanita (Apr 13, 2010)

Tragic! I saw it on the news earlier. I think they said it was the first of these aircraft to crash.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Such a tragic thing to happen. Thoughts go out to all of the families.*


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## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

How awful  Too many plane crashes recently


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## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

There were 16 students from the same school on board - 

R.I.P


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Germanwings are known as very reliable service..hard to believe that they would use unsafe machine...:frown2:...

I usually choose German or British lines...


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

silvi said:


> It's a reliable low-cost airline, flying a reliable plane.


Define reliable for me please



> A320
> On 26 June 1988, Air France Flight 296, using a recently introduced and just months-old Airbus A320-111, crashed into the tops of trees beyond the runway on a demonstration flight at Mulhouse-Habsheim Airport, France. Three passengers (of 136 on board) were killed.
> 
> On 14 February 1990, Indian Airlines Flight 605, using an Airbus A320-231, carrying 146 people, crashed on its final approach to the HAL Airport, Bangalore. 88 passengers and four crew members were killed.
> ...


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

cheekyscrip said:


> Germanwings are known as very reliable service..hard to believe that they would use unsafe machine...:frown2:...
> 
> I usually choose German or British lines...


The problem here is that you dont know who will turn up, airlines "share" planes, 1 flight can have several flight numbers as ive discovered whilst picking up from airports......


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

not to gossip, but a friend posted that she found out that the latest checks and service on that plane were done in Russia...


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Very sad.. and this is why I've never been on a plane...yet! I know crashes don't happen often but still when they do..


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

cheekyscrip said:


> not to gossip, but a friend posted that she found out that the latest checks and service on that plane were done in Russia...


my new car was built in Czechoslovakia, what are you saying?

Concorde was UK/French and crashed


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## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

cheekyscrip said:


> not to gossip, but a friend posted that she found out that the latest checks and service on that plane were done in Russia...


Meaning what ?

They've found the black box, so hopefully they'll get answers


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Colliebarmy said:


> my new car was built in Czechoslovakia, what are you saying?
> 
> *Concorde was UK/French and crashed*


It picked up some debri on the runway that got into it's engines.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

So sad, thoughts are with the families.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Colliebarmy said:


> my new car was built in Czechoslovakia, what are you saying?


Cheeky aint saying anything, she simply made you aware of its last service/maintenance checks/overhauls.

Furthermore, if you watch such documentaries as Aircraft Crash Investigations you would be all the wiser for realising the corners often cut/mistakes made by engineers to get an aircraft back in the air.

As for an example of what the Russians are capable of, investigate for yourself Aeroflot Flight 593.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

My German cousin has just qualified as a pilot with Lufthansa and was due to start flying with Germanwings this week. We had a worrying few hours wondering if he was okay but my parents got a call to say he was not on this flight. 

So very very sad for all the families and those who lost there lives.


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## Etienne (Dec 8, 2010)

cheekyscrip said:


> not to gossip, but a friend posted that she found out that the latest checks and service on that plane were done in Russia...


I think it was the German transport minister that stated checks were carried out yesterday in Germany by Lufthansa, in a statement today.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Zaros said:


> Cheeky aint saying anything, she simply made you aware of its last service/maintenance checks/overhauls.
> 
> Furthermore, if you watch such documentaries as Aircraft Crash Investigations you would be all the wiser for realising the corners often cut/mistakes made by engineers to get an aircraft back in the air.
> 
> As for an example of what the Russians are capable of, investigate for yourself Aeroflot Flight 593.


Theres so much hoaxed rubbish out there i cant believe anyone believes any of it


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Happy Paws said:


> It picked up some debri on the runway that got into it's engines.


yrs, I know, and this last crash could have been a bird strike, nothing to do with maintenance checks


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Etienne said:


> I think it was the German transport minister that stated checks were carried out yesterday in Germany by Lufthansa, in a statement today.


absolutely true..every plane is checked just before flight!, as I said - it might be gossip, a friend posted that latest service ??/ was done in Russia..
I do not think sabotage.. I think something is gone wrong...

I do not know where my friends got that info..but believe would not post it ..if did not believe the source..
what was the reason and if service had anything to do with it...no one knows as yet...

German airlines have very good reputation....that is why I paid more to use Lufthansa!

Just scary...Theoretically any plane can be disabled if it's computer system can be disabled...such were speculations about Malaysian plane crash...I remember reading it - in possibly "Focus"...not too sure...but it was explained how it can be done..though very complex and needed access to plane's computer system - to plant some devices...

Obviously - anything completely trivial and unpredictable like high velocity meteorite might be the cause and just pure fatum...

One thing is sure - it was relatively old plane...bought in 1991.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Colliebarmy said:


> Theres so much hoaxed rubbish out there i cant believe anyone believes any of it


:001_huh:.....


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Colliebarmy said:


> Define reliable for me please


Reliable as in there are thousands of A320s in use and they have a very good safety record.

Anyone could produce a list of accidents for a particular plane, but few planes stand up so well when comparing safe, ordinary flights everyday with the small number of accidents overall.

There are over 6,000 A320s in service at this moment.

This particular plane was an A320-200, a variation on the original standard A320 and A320-100, in that it has a higher fuel capacity and its design is evidently ideal for poor runway landing conditions and has been purchased by some airlines with this in mind.

The aircraft was 20 years old (or thereabouts); not old at all for a passenger aircraft, and I would bet that many of us have traveled on planes older than this without realising.

You could make a much longer list for Boeing 737s, because they are also highly-popular planes and in constant use. But thousands of passengers travel on them too and they are thus also reliable.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Looks like this plane was grounded the day before .... Might not be relavent the but feel for everyone involved 

Good on the staff for refusing to fly if they felt unable to.

Several Germanwings flights cancelled after crew refused to fly - Telegraph


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## VickynHolly (Jun 23, 2013)

So sad. What those passengers went through, and 16 kids and 2 babies


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

So far...no mayday sent..very rare...computers failed? Plane made in 1991 --24 years it is near retirement, not unusual..but fairly aged...last major check in 2013, but no info where...they gave details about last daily check up though...what happened to pilots that during descent no mayday sent?..Italian military plane picked up son signal sent at10.35, crash happened at10.53. Great tragedy all the same.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Apparently 5 rescue galgos were on the plane too.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Why is the Black Box called that, when its Orange?


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

cheekyscrip said:


> So far...no mayday sent..very rare...computers failed? Plane made in 1991 --24 years it is near retirement, not unusual..but fairly aged...last major check in 2013, but no info where...they gave details about last daily check up though...what happened to pilots that during descent no mayday sent?..Italian military plane picked up son signal sent at10.35, crash happened at10.53. Great tragedy all the same.


Sounds like rapid decompression, but might well not be.
(a couple of flight forums are being buried under the weight of 1,000s of posts and suggestions as we speak).

I think so far they have only found the cockpit voice recorder and are still looking for the flight data recorder, so it's still early days.

Now that the details are coming out about all the passengers (and pets), it gets even more tragic. Such a shame


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Ang2 said:


> Why is the Black Box called that, when its Orange?


:001_huh: Not that old chestnut.

The inside of the FDR (Flight Data Recorder) is black.

In order to facilitate easy recovery of the FDR at or near the crash site they are required to be coloured in either reflective yellow or orange surfaces.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Zaros said:


> :001_huh: Not that old chestnut.
> 
> The inside of the FDR (Flight Data Recorder) is black.
> 
> In order to facilitate easy recovery of the FDR at or near the crash site they are required to be coloured in either reflective yellow or orange surfaces.


black box painted orange..simples...one mystery solved...


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Just caught on the news that the flight recorder appears to show that the Captain was locked out of the cockpit.


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

When I first heard the reports it was said that air traffic control had received a message from the plane saying that it was in an 'abonormal situation'

Later on the news they said there had been no communication from the plane and no distress call..

I will be interested in what emerges..


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Germanwings plane crash: Pilot 'locked out of cockpit' - BBC News

"However, the New York Times quoted an unnamed investigator as saying that one of the pilots - it is not clear if it is the captain or the first officer - left the cockpit and had been unable to get back in.
"The guy outside is knocking lightly on the door, and there is no answer," the investigator said, describing audio from the recorder.
"And then he hits the door stronger, and no answer. There is never an answer. You can hear he is trying to smash the door down."
A source close to the investigation told a similar story to the AFP news agency.
An alarm indicating proximity to the ground can be heard before the moment of impact, the source adds."

*This makes me wonder if perhaps the other pilot was in trouble himself.*


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Certainly as there doesn't appear to be any voices, it does make you wonder if something happened to the captain or first officer who was still in the cockpit.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I heard an interview this morning saying the steel door between the cockpit and the rest of the plane is not possible to break down (its to prevent terrorists getting in), they have a key pad outside with security numbers to get back in but that can be blocked by flicking a switch in the cockpit so that the numbers won't open the door. Obviously they don't know whether that happened so its speculation at the moment but it would seem strange the pilot or co pilot couldn't get back in. Those poor people.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

If the door can only be opened through a keypad and it can be blocked to prevent people opening the door.. then this is very strange indeed!

Though I read that back in January a plane had to make an emergency landing due to the captain being locked out of the cockpit due to a door malfunction, so the first officer had to land the plane.

Poor poor people


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Purely speculation (which is all that can be done at the moment) but if one of the Pilots was outside the cockpit and unable to get back in, then ether a medical emergency with the other pilot was happening AND the keypad failed.

That is some bad luck :confused1:

Or the Pilot remaining in the cockpit locked the other one out on purpose..... I do hope that is not the case :sad:

I am sure the investigation will shed more light.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Now they are checking theory of suicide...deliberate sending the pilot ot and locking the door then taking descent route down...


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

IF it was suicide, then how on earth could somebody do that? If you want to take your own life, then okay, but how could you take 100+ lives as well?

I really hope it isn't suicide, but the whole thing is very strange!


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

They are probably checking the medical and financial backgrounds plus work rotas of the flight crew very carefully at this point.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

It seems that the New York times report (that press all over the world have copied) _may _be bogus.
The transcript as quoted 'from an unofficial source' is evidently very, very similar to what happened on Mozambique Airlines flight 470 (an Embraer 190) in November 2013, when the co-pilot was locked out of the cockpit by the captain, who then proceeded to fly the plane into the ground.

It may be coincidence; it may be a copy incident...or it may be a bit of reporting sleight of hand.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Alps Co-Pilot Crashed Deliberately - Prosecutor

Live Updates: Alps Crash Latest


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I think it's really unhelpful for the press to print any information about this tragedy until all the facts are known TBH.

People have died and it's being turned into a media circus, as usual.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Hanwombat said:


> Alps Co-Pilot Crashed Deliberately - Prosecutor
> 
> Live Updates: Alps Crash Latest


Wow. I speculated this might have been the case but was hoping for something like technical failure. To do that though.... To kill all those people.... The guy is nothing but a coward in my eyes.



Lurcherlad said:


> I think it's really unhelpful for the press to print any information about this tragedy until all the facts are known TBH.
> 
> People have died and it's being turned into a media circus, as usual.


Unfortunately that's our culture now. News as it happens, 24/7


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Really shocking news regarding the deliberate crashing of the plane. I know these things are in the grand scheme of things rare, but with the amount of crashes there has been lately it makes me incredibly nervous even thinking about flying ( and I've never flown before! which makes it doubly nerve wracking )

I just can't imagine those last minutes for the passengers and crew. The authorities say they were heard crying and shouting in their last minutes!


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## Valanita (Apr 13, 2010)

Dreadful news about the deliberate crashing of the plane by the co-pilot. You can't imagine what that must have been like when the crew & passengers realised what was happening.
It was tragic when we thought it an accident, but, this makes it far worse & I had tears when I heard the news on TV.
How could the co-pilot do this, words fail me.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

terrible news, poor passengers, poor families. 

Too many of these tragedies happening.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Its heartbreaking to think that the plane crashed due to the co pilot crashing the plane on purpose!

Those poor people and its so sad to know that in their final moment they heard them screaming 

The poor captain as well trying desperately to get back inside.


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## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

God how terrible. The passengers knew what was about to happen

I thought cabin crew were able to enter the cockpit from the outside ?


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## Mr Gizmo (Jul 1, 2009)

willa said:


> God how terrible. The passengers knew what was about to happen
> 
> I thought cabin crew were able to enter the cockpit from the outside ?


Not since 9-11.
The co-pilot flicked a swith in the cabin that engaged the cabin door so that it could not be opened from outside the cabin.


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## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

Mr Gizmo said:


> Not since 9-11.
> The co-pilot flicked a swith in the cabin that engaged the cabin door so that it could not be opened from outside the cabin.


terrifying . The poor pilot trying to get back in  :sad::sad:


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

willa said:


> terrifying . The poor pilot trying to get back in  :sad::sad:


Yep, doesn't bear thinking about does it?


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## Jellypi3 (Jan 3, 2014)

RIP all those people. I hate speculating about what happened and what the co-pilots motives were (if any). My heart just goes out to those people and their families


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

I don't know why everyone is saying this is bogus reporting by the newspapers, I heard a representative of Lufthansa on the news saying it, so it has come from the horses mouth, so to speak.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Sacremist said:


> I don't know why everyone is saying this is bogus reporting by the newspapers, I heard a representative of Lufthansa on the news saying it, so it has come from the horses mouth, so to speak.


Yes your right, I heard it lunch time on the BBC from a Lufthansa Press Conference


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Sacremist said:


> I don't know why everyone is saying this is bogus reporting by the newspapers, I heard a representative of Lufthansa on the news saying it, so it has come from the horses mouth, so to speak.


I would rather take the authorities word for it, than that of twitter/forum/social media 'experts'.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> I would rather take the authorities word for it, than that of twitter/forum/social media 'experts'.


If people turn on the news, they will hear it for themselves. It's all over every news channel.


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

Its on BBC news right now.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Mr Gizmo said:


> Not since 9-11.
> The co-pilot flicked a swith in the cabin that engaged the cabin door so that it could not be opened from outside the cabin.


Oooh. That makes for a nasty dilemma now, doesn't it - ensure the cockpit can be secured against terrorism, or ensure the cockpit can always be accessed somehow in case of pilot problems...

Classic Catch-22, and now with proven potential for lethality either way


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Its just so sad  The fact they heard those people scream, at least it was seconds before impact, but the poor Captain knowing what was going to happen and couldn't do anything


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Sacremist said:


> If people turn on the news, they will hear it for themselves. It's all over every news channel.


Yes, I watched the live press conferences this morning.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Jesthar said:


> Oooh. That makes for a nasty dilemma now, doesn't it - ensure the cockpit can be secured against terrorism, or ensure the cockpit can always be accessed somehow in case of pilot problems...
> 
> Classic Catch-22, and now with proven potential for lethality either way


it was said that protocol is for a member of the flight crew to be in the cabin when only 1 cabin crew was in it, the obvious event is if a sole pilot was taken ill while the door was locked as it is due to the threat of terrorist attack


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

They are certainly going to have to revise and enforce their protocols.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

I know some airlines have a member of cabin crew who know the secret code that unlocks the door but not all planes or airlines have that ability.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I don't really understand how this door with a secret combination code that the crew all know would stop terrorists. Surely if its common knowledge that the code is known all they would have to do is take a passenger or crew hostage and threaten to do something foul to them, someone will eventually give up the code which is I presume why the pilot has the facility to override the combination lock and block access. Perhaps they should have a way of cabin crew contacting air traffic control who could override the pilot locking the door. What a sad state of affairs.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

It is impossible to eliminate all risks in flying or in any other arena, anyone who thinks this is is possible is not living in the real world.

The principles of risk assessment are to reduce it to ALARP standards ie as low as reasonably practical.

That is all anyone can do.

Nobody has a crystal ball.


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## westie~ma (Mar 16, 2009)

Found it chilling when the news reported that the 16 students drew lots to decide who would go on the trip as it was over subscribed   

Hubby's business has "bits" on these aircraft, there was big concern that the crash was something to do with some sort of failure. The fact that it appears to be human intervention does not make this easier. Very distressing and upsetting and my heart goes out to those who have lost loved ones.


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

So very sad. The screams and shrieks can be heard on the audio.  That you didn't want to live anymore doesn't mean everyone on the plane felt the same way. I hope that this event doesn't stigmatize people who are depressed. There are very few people that choose to take their own lives that physically harm others while doing so.


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

I agree, the poor captain not being able to do a thing.


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## Muze (Nov 30, 2011)

Genuinely awful........ all those poor people.... wth went on up there?!


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

DogLover1981 said:


> So very sad. The screams and shrieks can be heard on the audio.  That you didn't want to live anymore doesn't mean everyone on the plane felt the same way. I hope that this event doesn't stigmatize people who are depressed. There are very few people that choose to take their own lives that physically harm others while doing so.


this was a fairly young co pilot? pilots have to have stringent psychological evaluations...maybe they should either have them more often or have them tightened up a bit.

Even so, if you can't rule out some sort of sickness, then there needs to be some sort of procedure so this is prevented from happening.


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

Beyond having more than one pilot in the cockpit, I doubt much can be done to prevent this type of problem in every situation.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

DogLover1981 said:


> Beyond having more than one pilot in the cockpit, I doubt much can be done to prevent this type of problem in every situation.


they are supposed to have another crew member (even a flight steward) in the cabin if only 1 flight crew is in it alone in case of sudden illness, etc, if only to open the door


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Colliebarmy said:


> they are supposed to have another crew member (even a flight steward) in the cabin if only 1 flight crew is in it alone in case of sudden illness, etc, if only to open the door


That hasn't actually been policy for all airlines, many are now reviewing their procedures though so that it will be

Airlines across the world to change safety policies - BBC News


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

*An armed security guard in uniform on every plane... with a seat next to and access to the cockpit...what would it put on a ticket...£1?*


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

poohdog said:


> *An armed security guard in uniform on every plane... with a seat next to and access to the cockpit...what would it put on a ticket...£1?*


Not sure if Israeli flights do still have an armed guard on board flights.

Its a terrible thing that has happened...and not the first....world gone mad


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

poohdog said:


> *An armed security guard in uniform on every plane... with a seat next to and access to the cockpit...what would it put on a ticket...£1?*


Yes, because THEY wouldn't become the obvious first target of any wingnut terrorist trying to pull off a hijacking...

America operates a Sky Marshall system, I think, a sort of undercover cop program for planes. I don't know if all flights have one on them, though - possibly they do since 9/11.

Israel certainly do have undercover armed guards on all flights I believe - which you can understand after being a favourite potential target for early hijackings.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

yeah, and then when the bullet goes through the skin of the airplane and it decompresses etc everything will be alright........................


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Germanwings crash: Co-pilot treated for depression | National News - WCVB Home

" Meanwhile, the German tabloid Bild reports that Andreas Lubitz received psychiatric treatment for a "serious depressive episode" six years ago.

Citing internal documents and Lufthansa sources, Bild said Lubitz spent a total of one and a half years in psychiatric treatment. Lufthansa Chief Executive Carsten Spohr told a news conference on Thursday that Lubitz had taken a break during his training six years ago, but did not explain why and said he had passed all tests to be fit to fly."

*I wonder if this is what drove him to do what he did.*


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Colliebarmy said:


> they are supposed to have another crew member (even a flight steward) in the cabin if only 1 flight crew is in it alone in case of sudden illness, etc, if only to open the door


This is what I understood to be protocol. A "body swap" with a steward if a pilot needs to leave the flight deck.

Unfortunately, it would seem that things have sometimes become lax if the cabin crew are busy (selling duty free and drinks ), then corners may be cut and the body swap does not happen.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> This is what I understood to be protocol. A "body swap" with a steward if a pilot needs to leave the flight deck.
> 
> Unfortunately, it would seem that things have sometimes become lax if the cabin crew are busy (selling duty free and drinks ), then corners may be cut and the body swap does not happen.


It is not about cutting corners, there is a big difference in REQUIRED and RECOMMENDED.

The latter means there is a choice the former not.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> It is not about cutting corners, there is a big difference in REQUIRED and RECOMMENDED.
> 
> The latter means there is a choice the former not.


Whatever the terminology, I would have thought it was more important to preserve the safety of the plane/passengers over the serving of drinks or handing out sick bags, etc. 

Sounds like it should be MANDATORY so there is no confusion :thumbsup:


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

JANICE199 said:


> Germanwings crash: Co-pilot treated for depression | National News - WCVB Home
> 
> " Meanwhile, the German tabloid Bild reports that Andreas Lubitz received psychiatric treatment for a "serious depressive episode" six years ago.
> 
> ...


I just hope that there is a thorough investigation of all aspects of the plane crash, and not just of the co-pilot's background and mental state.

It is in Airbus's interest to have a crew member to blame and in this case it appears that the co-pilot did cause the crash.
But it seems to me that everyone is leaping very quickly to follow this explanation and then to look for 'evidence' to confirm it.

Reminds me of the Santiago de Compostela rail disaster and the way everyone leaped into action to blame the driver and minimised other contributing factors.


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## cava14 una (Oct 21, 2008)

How do they know it was wouldn't open the door rather than couldn't? Sorry if I've missed it


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

cava14 una said:


> How do they know it was wouldn't open the door rather than couldn't? Sorry if I've missed it


*I would have thought the one flying would have said he couldn't open the door. But he said nothing, as far as i've heard.*


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *I would have thought the one flying would have said he couldn't open the door. But he said nothing, as far as i've heard.*


Exactly. I'd also not expect the plane to be manually put into a downward acceleration either, or, if mechanical failure was the issue, why wasn't emergency contact made with air control?


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## Valanita (Apr 13, 2010)

From the news today the co-pilot did crash the plane deliberately. He shouldn't have even been working from what was said. He had sick notes that he never filed.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

As I understood code enable tpo open door from the passenger side, but can be overridden manually for twenty minutes, which can only be done by conscious person inside..that is to prevent hijacking.

Torn sick leaves , also for the day of the flight were found in the flat of the pilot, who evidently hid the fact of being ill...(from the news)...


he was ill, he was supposedly under treatment...the airlines did not know that...patient confidentiality...(again from the news)..Outwardly he seemed ok.
Problem is that it might have been recurrent form of depression - I speculate here- medical notes and diagnosis were not published as yet...

But diagnosis is a process, takes often more than one or two episodes, even acute to classify, even then illness may evolve , it is not simple at all...


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

cava14 una said:


> How do they know it was wouldn't open the door rather than couldn't? Sorry if I've missed it


Because he used the switch to override the pilot being able to open the door using the code pad from outside and because they can hear him breathing on the recording.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

At least the whole of the Russian aircraft maintenance industry isnt under suspicion now....


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

I just watched a news report that claimed the co pilot was Bi Polar, and that he had hidden this from his employers. Surely, his doctor should have informed the airline.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Ang2 said:


> I just watched a news report that claimed the co pilot was Bi Polar, and that he had hidden this from his employers. Surely, his doctor should have informed the airline.


I read the guys pilots training was halted in 2009 due to his depression....so someone already knew


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Ang2 said:


> I just watched a rrt that claimed the co pilot was Bi Polar, and that he had hidden this from his employers. Surely, his doctor should have informed the airline.


Doubt that would be allowed due to patient confidentiality.

Someone I know has a member of their extended family on suspension from their job as a doctor's receptionist after someone ELSE made a comment about a patient to another member of staff. Their only 'crime'? To have accessed the records of the same patient on the same day - a routine action which now could cost their job of two decades.

And dealing with Union work I know companies have to have permission from an employee to request medical information from their doctor. A company person landed in hot water not too long ago trying to blag info from another employees doctor without permission...

That's UK law, of course. Not sure what it's like in Germany. But I can't imagine it would be much different; I'm sure you're average German wouldn't want employers to be able to access their personal medical records on demand any more than we would.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

"we must remember that being depressed, throwing a wobbly and being a mass murderer are very different entities." Michael Bloomfield 
The Germanwings tragedy: inside the mind of a pilot | Michael Bloomfield | Comment is free | The Guardian


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

MollySmith said:


> "*we must remember that being depressed, throwing a wobbly and being a mass murderer are very different entities.*" Michael Bloomfield
> The Germanwings tragedy: inside the mind of a pilot | Michael Bloomfield | Comment is free | The Guardian


Absolutely!

Many people experience depression. Comparatively few take their own lives. The proportion of depressives who deliberately kill other people during their suicides must be minute.

This is a dreadful but not predictable occurrence.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

My mum is bipolar and I know many of us suffer with depression so I think we and the media (I wish!) have to be careful in our phrases around this


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

Adding to my post from yesterday...

I don't know what is done for the psychological evaluations of pilots but I see it as dubious in nature. You only know what a person tells you and there would be huge disincentives for a pilot to talk about it with anyone. One, he could lose his job and two, he could be hospitalized against his will. There is a stigma surrounding mental health problems as well.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Lufthansa flying school in Arizona deemed him unsuitable for flying...2009,


but it seems he loved flying and wanted to be a pilot from early years...he stopped training due to his illness and now was trying to hide it - obviously he would be losing his job as a pilot if he handed in sick note with diagnosis of depression or similar,.
yes, that is selfish - but he might not been able to reason.
On contrary suicide attempts in people with unipolar depression or bipolar are frequent and up to 20 % of them are successful.

And obviously often patients try to hide their worsening state and hide their diagnosis from employers. With tragic results if they have access to weapons etc...there were other cases of pilots with depression downing their planes, some very recent.

In case of severe clinical depression we always worry about patient safety, and those around them. Main reason actually why they get sectioned of refuse being hospitalised.
Unfortunately patient conditions can worsen in space of hours, it may smoulder and just burst in flames...

many people suffer from depression and bipolar and they should be given best shot to have regular life...but I am afraid there limitations -you cannot stay in active service in the army ...I am afraid being a pilot might be similar too.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

I wonder if German Wings and a lot of other carriers are looking over there Fit to Fly policies. 

The twist in this story is absolutely horrifying- I may not be popular but I am all to aware of the consequences on other innocent people as a result of suicide - I believe it is an extremely selfish act - one carried out in desperation yes but selfish but I'm not even sure if this can be classed as suicide? To take 150 people with you 

There was a 7 month old baby on that flight.. 7 months old and returning from a family funeral. 

I flew home with Charlie the day after this flight went down - I'm a nervous flier anyway but I was holding Charlie so tight throughout that flight! 

I have no idea on what the answer is - how can these airlines ensure staff are fit to fly? 

Some people can be very good at hiding there emotions and battling on - there is a lot for a pilot to loose.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Milliepoochie said:


> I wonder if German Wings and a lot of other carriers are looking over there Fit to Fly policies.
> 
> The twist in this story is absolutely horrifying- I may not be popular but I am all to aware of the consequences on other innocent people as a result of suicide - I believe it is an extremely selfish act - one carried out in desperation yes but selfish but I'm not even sure if this can be classed as suicide? To take 150 people with you
> 
> ...


I think suicide is a tragedy......but to do it like this is beyond words.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Whilst i think what the guy did was appalling, i can't begin to understand how he must have been feeling. So damn sad all round.*


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## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

*'I'm planning a heinous act that will be remembered forever*

WOW ! If only his partner had told someone about this ....

Makes me nervous for flying in the summer. I know flying is safer than driving, but it's putting your life in someone else's hands :scared:


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## rox666 (May 22, 2012)

willa said:


> *'I'm planning a heinous act that will be remembered forever*
> 
> WOW ! If only his partner had told someone about this ....
> 
> Makes me nervous for flying in the summer. I know flying is safer than driving, but it's putting your life in someone else's hands :scared:


Good to see she is cashing in on this. You'd assume that if he really did say this she'd have told the air accident investigators and then kept her mouth shut until after the investigation at least.

I can't find this reported anywhere other than the likes of the Daily Mail so I think I'll ignore this bit of sensationalism for now.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

rox666 said:


> Good to see she is cashing in on this. You'd assume that if he really did say this she'd have told the air accident investigators and then kept her mouth shut until after the investigation at least.
> 
> I can't find this reported anywhere other than the likes of the Daily Mail so I think I'll ignore this bit of sensationalism for now.


It was being reported on BBC breakfast too :sad:


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

rox666 said:


> Good to see she is cashing in on this. You'd assume that if he really did say this she'd have told the air accident investigators and then kept her mouth shut until after the investigation at least.
> 
> I can't find this reported anywhere other than the likes of the Daily Mail so I think I'll ignore this bit of sensationalism for now.


Alps Germanwings crash co-pilot Lubitz 'made prediction' - BBC News


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Alps Crash Co-Pilot &#39;Planned Place In History&#39;

" A former girlfriend of the co-pilot accused of deliberately crashing a Germanwings plane is reported to have told how he suffered nightmares and once ominously woke up screaming: "We're going down!"

According to the Bild newspaper, the ex-lover of Andreas Lubitz, identified only as Mary W, said he had told her last year: "One day I will do something that will change the whole system, and then all will know my name and remember it."

She added: "I never knew what he meant, but now it makes sense."


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## rox666 (May 22, 2012)

Milliepoochie said:


> Alps Germanwings crash co-pilot Lubitz 'made prediction' - BBC News


Yeah I just saw that after I made the post! Not quite the same quote but similar. Well whether he said it or not I still can't quite believe that she has sold her story. Doesn't look like this information was released via the official channels.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

So he was planning mass murder.....sounds like he was a psychopath and any 'issues' he had extended well beyond depression in that case. How unfortunate that this individual slipped through the cracks and took the innocent lives of 150 with him to he grave. This whole story has really sickened me to the core.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

If its true the pilot said this he must have neen a psychopath, he knew he was going to do this one day, i read yestrday that there was someone on his plane that he had a grudge against, didnt say who,also very selfish in my opinion,if he planned it


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

All these people with 20/20 hindsight ...what heros they are ...not.


Yesterday a 'neighbour' was interviewed on German Tv saying how the lad had been depressed and shut down and that lots of people had been worried about him flying.. Well why the hell didnt they do something instead of wating until now to gloat and grin at camera?.. 
Sickos the lot of them


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

dorrit said:


> All these people with 20/20 hindsight ...what heros they are ...not.
> 
> Yesterday a 'neighbour' was interviewed on German Tv saying how the lad had been depressed and shut down and that lots of people had been worried about him flying.. Well why the hell didnt they do something instead of wating until now to gloat and grin at camera?..
> Sickos the lot of them


TBH what could they have done? presuming they have your 'average' neighbourly relation where they say 'hi, good morning' and it doesn't extend much beyond that. I'm not sure they could gauge how depressed and shut down someone they probably don't know well just by looking at them, either.

It sounds as though he was signed off work but chose to ignore this. So presumably the medical intervention was there, but if he planned this as reports are suggesting, he's a real psychopath and all the medical intervention in the world wouldn't have stopped him.


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

labradrk said:


> TBH what could they have done? presuming they have your 'average' neighbourly relation where they say 'hi, good morning' and it doesn't extend much beyond that. I'm not sure they could gauge how depressed and shut down someone they probably don't know well just by looking at them, either.
> 
> It sounds as though he was signed off work but chose to ignore this. So presumably the medical intervention was there, but if he planned this as reports are suggesting, he's a real psychopath and all the medical intervention in the world wouldn't have stopped him.


Its true even if they had telephoned the airline or whoever controls pilot health checks theres no saying they would have been taken seriously but at least they would have tried...

But is it helpful to stand in front of a camera after the event and announce ...oh yes we could all see there was something wrong and that he shouldnt have been flying....

For those who have lost loved ones this is just another cruel twist of the knife.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Milliepoochie said:


> I wonder if German Wings and a lot of other carriers are looking over there Fit to Fly policies.
> 
> The twist in this story is absolutely horrifying- I may not be popular but I am all to aware of the consequences on other innocent people as a result of *suicide - I believe it is an extremely selfish act - one carried out in desperation yes but selfish* but I'm not even sure if this can be classed as suicide? To take 150 people with you
> 
> ...


I agree with you, Millie. Suicide resulting from depression/despair is a tragedy for the person who feels driven to it, but it is often (though not always) also an act of great violence and aggression against the world or the people whom the suicide feels have driven them to this action.

Many years ago, two children in my son's classes had fathers who committed suicide when their marriages broke up.

One shot himself in the stable where his 10-year-old daughter kept her pony, knowing that SHE would be the first one to find his body when she went to feed and water before school in the morning - because this was the way he could hurt his wife the most.

Another arranged to meet his ex and their two girls at the marital home (wife had left it - he remained there). His wife didn't take the girls, thank God - I can't remember why - there was a valid reason, not just bloody-mindedness. She found him dead. He had hanged himself.

In these cases, and others like them, I think people are motivated by self-pity and spite rather than real despair. They must be mentally ill to even think of such a thing, but they are more concerned with the pain they inflict than with escaping a dreadful situation, as most suicides are.

Most people who are suicidally depressed feel that they are dragging their loved ones down, and want to release them as well as themselves from the pain. They truly think they are helping their families. They aren't. Suicide leaves a wound that never heals.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Milliepoochie said:


> The twist in this story is absolutely horrifying- I may not be popular but I am all to aware of the consequences on other innocent people as a result of suicide - I believe it is an extremely selfish act - one carried out in desperation yes but selfish but I'm not even sure if this can be classed as suicide? To take 150 people with you
> 
> .


100% agree. I don't believe it can really be called sucide, especially if it was planned. It make him a psychopath and a coward in my view but sadly one that will be remembered in the history books for all the wrong reasons 

However guys just remember that flying is still one of the most (if not number 1) safest method of transport. 3 million or so people fly EVERY DAY. You are more likely to suffer an accident in a car than flying.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2015)

Milliepoochie said:


> The twist in this story is absolutely horrifying- I may not be popular but I am all to aware of the consequences on other innocent people as a result of suicide - I believe it is an extremely selfish act - one carried out in desperation yes but selfish but I'm not even sure if this can be classed as suicide? To take 150 people with you





lostbear said:


> I agree with you, Millie. Suicide resulting from depression/despair is a tragedy for the person who feels driven to it, but it is often (though not always) also an act of great violence and aggression against the world or the people whom the suicide feels have driven them to this action.


Its a difficult topic to broach, but we mustnt forget that suicide is a form of homicide. It is an act of violence against a human being. (Excepting cases like terminal illness, assisted suicide, humane euthanasia etc.)

I said this on the other thread but one of the things we tell our children is that anger is normal, anger is okay. What is not okay is hurting someone because youre angry, not even yourself.


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## tia maria (Sep 16, 2012)

So very sad and should have been prevented if all the stories about him are true
If he had had enough of life he could have just taken his own...to take so many others with him is just cruel:sad:


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

willa said:


> Makes me nervous for flying in the summer. I know flying is safer than driving, but it's putting your life in someone else's hands :scared:


*
You could do this many times a year...The case of Dr Harold Shipman for example,or a coach or train driver.
Living as a part of society your life unfortunately is often in the hands of another human being. *


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

There is a difference, when you feel too much pain and death is an escape or punishment on those who hurt you, from desire to be famous, even in mostnegative way- there we have psychopaths... In many criminal cases in hindsights there were clues..
but how to act on just vague words? Doctor was bound by patient confidentiality...plus was that Lufthansa doctor...not sure then if he was aware that patient is a pilot, sick note was given..Should law demand doctors were bound to send copies of sick notes?


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

All this speculation in the media about the co-pilot's mental state and coming so quickly after the investigation opened.... 
And yet we still do not have data from the FDR and investigation of pieces of the aircraft is not being reported.

I really don't think that the details from the CVR should have been released to the media at this time and the 'leak' to the New York Times sounds dodgy to me.

It will take a lot more than reports from the CVR and videos of police inspecting the co-pilot's house and medical records to convince me that the investigation has been thorough enough.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

silvi said:


> It will take a lot more than reports from the CVR and videos of police inspecting the co-pilot's house and medical records to convince me that the investigation has been thorough enough.


your right

but im shocked he was allowed to step into a cockpit when his flight training was put on hold due to depression in 2009


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

lostbear said:


> I agree with you, Millie. Suicide resulting from depression/despair is a tragedy for the person who feels driven to it, but it is often (though not always) also an act of great violence and aggression against the world or the people whom the suicide feels have driven them to this action.
> 
> Many years ago, two children in my son's classes had fathers who committed suicide when their marriages broke up.
> 
> ...


A young girl i knew had a break up with her boyfriend, they had a beautiful little girl, one day he called to take the child out, as he had done before,but the childs mother got a phone call to say she would never see her daughter again, he took the little girl and jumped off a very high bridge here with the little girl screaming no daddy, how selfish and cruel , he had told the mother what he was going to do, she called the police,but it was too late,even the policemen were in tears at the scene


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## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

jaycee05 said:


> A young girl i knew had a break up with her boyfriend, they had a beautiful little girl, one day he called to take the child out, as he had done before,but the childs mother got a phone call to say she would never see her daughter again, he took the little girl and jumped off a very high bridge here with the little girl screaming no daddy, how selfish and cruel , he had told the mother what he was going to do, she called the police,but it was too late,even the policemen were in tears at the scene


God that is *horrendous *


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## koolchick (Apr 5, 2011)

I know airlines are now looking into making a rule that both pilots have to be in cabin at all times which does make sense. The thing I can't understand at all is why is it possible for pilots to lock the door so the other pilot can't get in? I understand there needs to be a way to stop passengers getting in to avoid any terrorists or loonies getting in and causing a crash, but why would one of the pilots ever need to be locked out? The should be a pass code to get in which I've heard there is but the one used can be done so it doesn't open the door which doesn't make sense. There should be one that can't be stopped from working when the right code is entered.

I know it's easy for anyone to pick any detail of this story and argue the co pilot shouldn't of been allowed to fly planes and it would be very hard for anyone to disagree with. I know people are saying anyone with depression shouldn't be allowed to pilot a plane which in this case would of prevented this happening, but you need to look at all other pilots and see how many have or do suffer depression. One definately thing is there needs to be more medical checks on pilots.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

koolchick said:


> I know airlines are now looking into making a rule that both pilots have to be in cabin at all times which does make sense. The thing I can't understand at all is why is it possible for pilots to lock the door so the other pilot can't get in? I understand there needs to be a way to stop passengers getting in to avoid any terrorists or loonies getting in and causing a crash, but why would one of the pilots ever need to be locked out? The should be a pass code to get in which I've heard there is but the one used can be done so it doesn't open the door which doesn't make sense. There should be one that can't be stopped from working when the right code is entered.


There is a huge debate on various sites out there concerning that door...
It _appears_ that each airline can set the 'fail safe' double lock on the door for a different amount of time. In this case, it is debatable as to how long that fail safe was set for, or even if it was actually used...

That's one of the things I mean when I say that there is much more evidence that needs to be looked at before judgements are made.

Relying simply on a CVR is not good investigative practice at all and is usually only carried out when all other avenues of investigation have been exhausted.


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## Chillicat (Jan 14, 2012)

I have been following this since it happened and first of all have to say it is an absolute tragedy and RIP to all those that died.
With regards to the ruling about pilots, my BIL is a Captain on a UK airline and they have always adopted the rule of, if either the captain or co-pilot have to leave the cockpit for any reason then a crew member steps in this isn't a legal ruling it was just something that made complete sense even though their flights are short haul. 
It is a demanding job and a huge amount of responsibility is placed on the Pilots, even what seems like a simple task has complications, for example: my BIL has only recently been promoted to Captain after 8 years as a Co-Pilot and on his first day as Captain a cabin crew member came up to him and said there was a very inebriated passenger on the plane and it was his decision on if the passenger could fly, he & the Co-Pilot spoke to the passenger and a decision was made that the passenger was taken off the flight, in his years of flying so far he had never known a passenger to be taken off one of his flights so this was a first. He then found he had reams of paperwork to fill out that took him hours to do after he had finished his flying for the day, but he does love his job and no two days are ever the same.


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## Wilmer (Aug 31, 2012)

> I know airlines are now looking into making a rule that both pilots have to be in cabin at all times which does make sense. The thing I can't understand at all is why is it possible for pilots to lock the door so the other pilot can't get in? I understand there needs to be a way to stop passengers getting in to avoid any terrorists or loonies getting in and causing a crash, but why would one of the pilots ever need to be locked out? The should be a pass code to get in which I've heard there is but the one used can be done so it doesn't open the door which doesn't make sense. There should be one that can't be stopped from working when the right code is entered.


It's an anti-hijacking thing - if someone who knows the code has a gun to their head, they may open the door even if it's the wrong thing to do. Airbus cockpit doors have three settings - unlock, normal, lock.

Unlock - only for use on the ground, door can be opened freely
Normal - locked, but can be opened from the outside using a passcode (held by cabin crew and both pilots). This is the normal in-flight setting.
Lock - Can only be opened by pilot inside flightdeck, passcodes will not work.

For the captain to be unable to get back in, the door would have been changed from normal to Locked. It is presumed that this was a deliberate change on the part of the co-pilot. The CVR recorded no speech, but regular breathing from the co-pilot suggesting that he was alive and not suffering from a physical health event (hypoxia, stroke, heart attack, fit, etc.). I agree, the media storm around the co-pilot is not appropriate at this stage but I think the investigators felt obliged to give out early findings because of the safety message about not leaving a sole person in charge at the front - those airlines which didn't already have a two in the flightdeck at all times rule, are now implementing, so something good has come out of the information. If the co-pilot was responsible, this is the second and possibly third event of this kind in 18mos, so promoting an immediate change in airline operations is a good thing.

Unfortunately, everyone seems to want to know everything instantly these days, but proper investigations into fatal crashes tend to take at least 9 months (usually much longer) to complete.



> Relying simply on a CVR is not good investigative practice at all and is usually only carried out when all other avenues of investigation have been exhausted.


This is simply not true. It's an invaluable tool, not only in giving an insight into the pre-crash conversations of the pilots but it also be used to determine what horns and warnings were being sounded by the aircraft systems and to tell if the pilots were actively moving around and doing things or being passive. The FDR is of course of critical importance too, but it can't always give you the "why".


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## koolchick (Apr 5, 2011)

silvi said:


> There is a huge debate on various sites out there concerning that door...
> It _appears_ that each airline can set the 'fail safe' double lock on the door for a different amount of time. In this case, it is debatable as to how long that fail safe was set for, or even if it was actually used...
> 
> That's one of the things I mean when I say that there is much more evidence that needs to be looked at before judgements are made.
> ...


But what is the reason behind this double lock which can stop other pilot getting in? From reading news reports today I would guess this lock had been used as I read the pilot even tried to get in using an axe. I'm sure if there had been any other way to get in he would of used that. I guess if people do look for logic explanations some may say he could of forgot the number. I've no idea how things work on a plane so can only go on what I read. But looking realistically what's chances of the pilot forgetting that number? Also if that was the case why wouldn't the co pilot of opened the door for him. Again I have no idea about flying planes I don't know if he could of turned his attention away from flying the plane to open the door. From news reports tho it does sound like he deliberately caused the plane to crash and it does state that certain things that happened could not of been done accidentally.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Wilmer said:


> *(re the CVR)*
> This is simply not true. It's an invaluable tool, not only in giving an insight into the pre-crash conversations of the pilots but it also be used to determine what horns and warnings were being sounded by the aircraft systems and to tell if the pilots were actively moving around and doing things or being passive. The FDR is of course of critical importance too, but it can't always give you the "why".


I agree it is an invaluable tool and of course I agree about all the things that can be tracked via the CVR.
_But it is not the only investigative tool._ (as you say, the FDR is critical also - especially when timelined alongside the CVR).
But it appears right now that the CVR is being given prime importance over every other method of investigation.
And then a criminal investigation is taking this data and searching for evidence based upon it.
So I still say that this is not a good, complete investigation.


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## Wilmer (Aug 31, 2012)

> But it appears right now that the CVR is being given prime importance over every other method of investigation.
> And then a criminal investigation is taking this data and searching for evidence based upon it.
> So I still say that this is not a good, complete investigation.


But it isn't a complete investigation, and the investigators aren't claiming it is. They don't have the FDR yet, so they're getting cracking with what they do have. The CVR isn't being given prime importance, people are logging and retrieving the wreckage and remains and searching for the FDR, but it takes time to do rigorously and thoroughly, so the analysts start with what they have.

The fact is, the media are baying for answers and want them yesterday. The investigators have prematurely released information that perhaps they shouldn't have in response to leaks and media pressure. That doesn't make them bad investigators, it just makes them poor at media handling. There is no criminal investigation yet, only the police have the authority to undertake the checks into the pilot's lives and homes that are required for full background to the case - which is pretty standard for a fatal accident like this.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Just reported on BBC News that the Co Pilot, persuaded the Captain to leave the cockpit. I presume this is evident from the Voice Recorder.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Full transcript from recording released now. Harrowing.What families of those kids must feel..


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## Pawscrossed (Jul 2, 2013)

Remembering the Captain. What an emotional post.
Patrick Sondheimer is a man we need to remember.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

This I find so shocking and goodness knows how the families felt learning this..

I am all for equal opportunities but some with a previous history of being treated for Suicidal Tendancies flying a commercial airliner?

Given the fact mental illness can be invisible and hidden- Should he have been in a safety critical role?

Alps crash: Lubitz 'had treatment for suicidal tendencies' - BBC News

The whole story is quite frankly terrifying


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Pawscrossed said:


> Remembering the Captain. What an emotional post.
> Patrick Sondheimer is a man we need to remember.


Why are there no photos of him? I want to see the face of the person who tried to save them all, not the face you killed them all.


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## koolchick (Apr 5, 2011)

There seriously needs to be some thought into what should be kept confidential and what shouldn't about people. I've read the airline wasn't aware of the co pilots suicidal feelings because of protecting his rights to keep his medical history private. Well there are some things that shouldn't be kept confidential which this story proves. It's like if any driver got bad eyesight they would need to loose their job for people's safety. Safety should come before protecting people's rights to confidentiality.

Also read in one article the granma of the pilot who couldn't get back in the cabin calls the co pilot an idiot. Well if it was me I'd be calling him far worse than that.


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

Its no wonder that people who are suicidal or have MH issues hide them.

The world is so judgemental.

Sometimes when a person has MH issues the world isnt a safe place and they honestly beleive that they are sparing their loved ones suffering.

Sometimes these people cannot grasp the severity of their problem and they have often been let down by medical professionals in their treatment .
The mere fact that antidepressents can cause suicidal symptoms should mean people on ad's should be under a stricter doctors supervision until they are settled on the medication.

Of course there are jealous people who have the attitude 'if I cant have them no one will' and kill their children/partner but even they have MH issues.

The whole 'they are sickos' attitude is exactly what stops the taboo around MH and suicide from being broken.

Please think before judging, it can happen to anyone. 
How would you feel if it were your loved ones? 
Im not talking about being a mass murderer but simply because you or a loved one were depressed your employer would be told, people would know and what would that do ? It would push people with depression and MH issues further into the shadows.

If society wants to play the blame game should we consider this.

Given that people dont normally decide on suicide as a way to punish themselves but as a way to end the pain they feel. Should we then look for the reasons this person felt such pain (physical or emotional ) and place the blame there at the root?

If a person has a virus and coughs infecting another person do we blame the person who coughs or the virus ? 

Similarly if we blame/ridicule and vilify this person and another hides their health issues because of our harsh words are we part of the solution or are we just adding to the problem?


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## Britt (May 18, 2014)

They just said on TV that Lufthansa knew that he had had an episode of severe depression in the past ....


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## koolchick (Apr 5, 2011)

dorrit said:


> Its no wonder that people who are suicidal or have MH issues hide them.
> 
> The world is so judgemental.
> 
> ...


If the mental health issue could effect the job people are paid and trusted to do then yes I think the employer does have a right and need to know. I know people who don't suffer mental illness can't understand it properly and I admit I don't understand it. I think I'm with the same thoughts as everyone else in this case as if he was feeling suicidal which he obviously was why did he choose to kill over 100 other innocent people as well as himself?


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

koolchick said:


> If the mental health issue could effect the job people are paid and trusted to do then yes I think the employer does have a right and need to know. I know people who don't suffer mental illness can't understand it properly and I admit I don't understand it. I think I'm with the same thoughts as everyone else in this case as if he was feeling suicidal which he obviously was why did he choose to kill over 100 other innocent people as well as himself?


Youre right.. you dont understand..


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Just watched Channel 4 News. They have found a passenger's mobile phone which has video footage of the screaming passengers, right up to the moment of the crash. 

The law needs changing, and doctors/medical experts should be obliged to notify employers when the safety of others is at risk!


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Whilst I have the deepest sympathy for people who suffer from mental health issues, and my own mother was one of those people, I agree with others that it is imperative that anyone who needs to know is informed if a person with mental health issues poses a threat to other people.

A friend of mine has a brother with mental health issues and he increasingly became a danger to his elderly parents whilst he was living with them. The mental health crises team had to act quickly and remove him from his parents home before one or both of them were seriously injured or killed.

In jobs where other people's lives are at risk, there needs to be some measures in place whereby an employer can have access to the medical records of their employees.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I think we need to be very careful not to add to the stigma that many people with mental health problems already feel. Tragic as this case is it is a very rare one and none of us are ever really likely to know what drove him to do what he did. Yes his depression probably paid a major part but it might not be the whole story. Where would we draw the line - should any one in charge of a vehicle who has MH problems have their right to confidentiality removed in case they cause a mass pile up on the motorway? bus drivers? lorry drivers? how about doctors? nurses? the police? What about contagious diseases such as HIV? Hepatitis? etc etc. Far better to concentrate on reviewing the safety measures already in place and tightening them up where necessary IMO.


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## Chillicat (Jan 14, 2012)

As I have said previously my BIL is a commercial pilot and he was saying that the minute a pilot mentions, depression, MH issues, stress etc their pilots license is taken away and whilst this is understandable in one sense it is also understandable that pilots will keep this secret as like any job they have worked hard to get that license and don't want to loose it, I do know that if my BIL was forced to give up his job due to depression etc he would be heartbroken and it would just make any health issues worse.
What should be done is more support for pilots as they may appear to have a glamorous job, but their rotas are crazy (not enough hours in a week) and they hold a huge responsibility on their shoulders and also from this lessons should be learnt about the protocol of what happens in the cockpit.


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## koolchick (Apr 5, 2011)

Just seen that they have found a video of the final minutes before the crash. Interesting to think how people act differently in that situation. Wonder what went through that persons mind to do a video when everyone was panicking understandably. What would you do in the last minutes do you think? Making video is definately an interesting if not sad thing to do another nice thing would be text ur loved ones saying you love them, but I honestly can't imagine myself doing anything other than panic in situation like this.

Also now the co pilots friends are saying he has been framed. Well like most people I'm only going on what I read and hear but providing everything I've read about it is true I can't see how he could of been framed. Main evidence that he had a sick note dated on the day of the crash. Another thing that he didn't say anything as the plane was going to crash. I know everyone acts differently in these situations but as he was the only person in control of the plane you would expect if he didn't plan to crash it he would of contacted air control or answered the other pilot who was shouting for him to open the door. Again all this is assuming the news about it is the truth which we have no way of knowing. One thing I will say is if he has been framed I bet his family and friends could take it further to prove his innocents. So wait and see if they do.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

koolchick said:


> Just seen that they have found a video of the final minutes before the crash.


For the sake of the relatives I would hope the media have the decency not to publish this if it exists. But I doubt it.


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

diefenbaker said:


> For the sake of the relatives I would hope the media have the decency not to publish this if it exists. But I doubt it.


Doesn't need to be published. With the internet, all that's required is a leak. Hopefully that won't happen though.


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

koolchick said:


> Just seen that they have found a video of the final minutes before the crash. Interesting to think how people act differently in that situation. Wonder what went through that persons mind to do a video when everyone was panicking understandably. What would you do in the last minutes do you think? Making video is definately an interesting if not sad thing to do another nice thing would be text ur loved ones saying you love them, but I honestly can't imagine myself doing anything other than panic in situation like this.
> 
> Also now the co pilots friends are saying he has been framed. Well like most people I'm only going on what I read and hear but providing everything I've read about it is true I can't see how he could of been framed. Main evidence that he had a sick note dated on the day of the crash. Another thing that he didn't say anything as the plane was going to crash. I know everyone acts differently in these situations but as he was the only person in control of the plane you would expect if he didn't plan to crash it he would of contacted air control or answered the other pilot who was shouting for him to open the door. Again all this is assuming the news about it is the truth which we have no way of knowing. One thing I will say is if he has been framed I bet his family and friends could take it further to prove his innocents. So wait and see if they do.


Authorities have confirmed this video is *faked*.

Now if we are talking about sickos whoever put this out into the world is truely a sick and twisted individual.
:mad5:


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

Is it possible a cell phone managed to get through? Possible but why would a person on there take a video of it in their final moments? With all the leaks that have occurred already, it wouldn't surprise me to see more.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Documentary on now Channel 4


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Just watched the documentary. Honestly, when that 'warning' alarm sounded in the flight simulation, as the pilot said, I literally went cold. I just can not imagine being able to ignore that knowing what was going to happen....and the poor captain outside the door


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## koolchick (Apr 5, 2011)

Really I'm not at all surprised the video turned out to be fake. Who would think about doing a video of the final moments in a situation like that? They probably didn't think of anything other than what was happening I don't think anyone would.


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## koolchick (Apr 5, 2011)

Been reported that a pilot from another air company predicted that something like this would happen. One thing though everyone will be more wary of going on planes after this but I bet it will be safest time to go on them as everyone will be doing extra checks to make sure they are safe. Also I know they are making a rule that there has to be two people in cockpit at all times I bet even before this rule is or was put in place no pilot would of risked leaving the other pilot alone however well they knew each other for the risk of being locked out.


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_my heart goes out to all the passengers, how awful must their final moments have been,  and to their families, who have to try to carry on without them,_


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Just reported on Sky News that the Co Pilot had been researching suicide and cockpit doors on his laptop. Seems it was premeditated and was planned over weeks/months.


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## koolchick (Apr 5, 2011)

Second black box reveals plane sped up towards the Alps so even stronger evidence it was deliberate. Well I've read somewhen the grandmother of the poor pilot who got locked out called the co pilot an idiot. Well if it was any of my loved ones who got killed I'd be calling him much worse than that. Idiot actually sounds like something nice to be called at side of what he's done to all those poor innocent people.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

koolchick said:


> Been reported that a pilot from another air company predicted that something like this would happen.
> 
> *Hindsight is a wonderful thing.*
> 
> ...


Well evidently the DID risk leaving the pilot alone as of course if they had not this situation would not have arisen.........................ut:


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## koolchick (Apr 5, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> Well evidently the DID risk leaving the pilot alone as of course if they had not this situation would not have arisen.........................ut:


I meant I bet no one would leave one pilot alone AFTER this happened or at least after it was suspected that this was done deliberately with the other pilot locked out.


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

The plane crash in the alps is interesting to me but... The media attention and concern about this plane crash is silly in a way considering how rare plane crashes are and ones caused by suicidal pilots are even rarer. Driving is way more dangerous as they say and the irony of that is... How many people in this world concerned about this plane crash use excessive speed while driving or text and drive daily? lol I couldn't begin to count the number of times I've seen people glued to their phones while they're driving.


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## koolchick (Apr 5, 2011)

DogLover1981 said:


> The plane crash in the alps is interesting to me but... The media attention and concern about this plane crash is silly in a way considering how rare plane crashes are and ones caused by suicidal pilots are even rarer. Driving is way more dangerous as they say and the irony of that is... How many people in this world concerned about this plane crash use excessive speed while driving or text and drive daily? lol I couldn't begin to count the number of times I've seen people glued to their phones while they're driving.


I think plane crashes get more attention because they don't happen as often and more chance of being killed in them than in car crash. I mean if the same number of people where in car crashes to plane crashes you would be more likely to be killed in plane crash than car crash.

Also read somewhere a doctor or someone has said it is unlikely the co pilot was aware of committing mass murder and that he would of only been aware of himself being in the plane. Now I find that very hard to believe as even if his mind did go blank and he wasn't aware anyone else was on the plane what was the point in locking the cockpit door as if he wasn't aware of anyone else on the plane he can't of been aware that if he hadn't locked that door the other pilot could of stopped him. Also he had searched suicide and cockpit doors in days before this crash so seems he was fully aware of what he was doing.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

koolchick said:


> I think plane crashes get more attention because they don't happen as often and more chance of being killed in them than in car crash. I mean if the same number of people where in car crashes to plane crashes you would be more likely to be killed in plane crash than car crash.
> 
> *Er no, obviously you are no statistician.......... *
> 
> Also read somewhere a doctor or someone has said it is unlikely the co pilot was aware of committing mass murder and that he would of only been aware of himself being in the plane. Now I find that very hard to believe as even if his mind did go blank and he wasn't aware anyone else was on the plane what was the point in locking the cockpit door as if he wasn't aware of anyone else on the plane he can't of been aware that if he hadn't locked that door the other pilot could of stopped him. Also he had searched suicide and cockpit doors in days before this crash so seems he was fully aware of what he was doing.


Another demonstration of how many people do not know how to determine the difference between Data, Information, Knowledge, Understanding and Wisdom............


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## koolchick (Apr 5, 2011)

Been reported now that it could of been hackers who made the plane crash and not the co pilot. Not sure how likely this is as more evidence saying it was the co pilot has come out. It's possible he spiked the other pilots drink to make sure he needed the toilet. Based on all news it does still sound like the co pilot caused this. The main thing that makes me think he caused it is the fact he was silent during the last minutes. If he didn't want this to happen surely being the only person in cockpit at time he would of said something to the other pilot through the door. Not sure how hackers would work or anything so anything else such as distress call or contacting air control may of been blocked I don't know. But at very least it would be expected that he would at least say something to the other pilot.


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