# Buying puppies in a pandemic- the lockdown puppy discussion thread.



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Following on from a previous thread where @O2.0 suggested an updated version of the puppy buying sticky especially for these 'unprecendented times', please feel free to contribute on issues you feel may be pertinent.

I'll try & compile something that can then be linked to when people join the forum looking for a puppy.

While I am aware that some buyers were looking to get a pup prior to last year's pandemic, it has become clear that people have decided en masse that lockdown is the best time to get a dog, & breeders were very quick to create a lucrative market as a result.

As I realise there are a lot of reputable breeders not wishing to make money but concerned with the rising prices of dogs meaning chancers will try & get hold of their puppies to sell on at a higher price, if any good breeders have any advice to help others avoid falling into that trap then that would also be appreciated.

I don't think covid is going away anytime soon, & my worry is another national lockdown & kids off school will result in more people getting puppies to relieve the boredom.

It's an abnormal time with a lot of abnormal things happening & consequently the opportunities to raise a well rounded dog that has had exposure to a lot of new things are limited.

I really do think that people who are first time dog custodians would be wise to wait until we have returned to some normality in order to access tangible support.

Puppies are being brought into homes where people are currently furloughed or working from home, their people are with them the vast majority of the time but this won't last forever.

I see a lot of the wanted ads stating that the buyer will be working from home permanently after the end of the pandemic, & while I'm sure a few will, unless there is a massive shift in societal attitude, the work culture of the last century will continue & the majority of people will be physically back at their place of employment.

There is a real risk of separation anxiety or isolation distress developing, how the buyer manages these risks early on will determine how the dog copes at a later date.

That is, of course, if they have a job to go back to, which brings me onto the next point of people blowing 4 figure sums on pups & then having to immediately shell out for veterinary treatment because they got that pup from a less than reputable source.

It's tempting to relieve the boredom of lockdowns, homeschooling & furlough by bringing in a cute puppy but job security is currently on very shaky ground for many sectors, & unlike a new pair of expensive designer trainers, animals are one of those annoying things that suck up your cash by the mere act of exisiting.

They are literally the gift that keeps on taking, from the minute they arrive to the day they die they are little cash hoovers.

Access to trainers & behaviourists is limited when an issue arises.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cross breeds are not breeds. Any seller telling you a -doodle or a -poo is a breed is lying. These are cross breeds and there is no guarantee what traits the dog will end up with. 

The initial cost of the puppy is the least amount you will spend on your dog for the life of the dog. My 'free' puppy has so far cost me hundreds and I've not had her 5 months. That's no major issues health or otherwise, just general every day costs of owning a dog, like having her spayed and enrolling her in a class.

Speaking of costs, no dog is worth $9000 unless it shits gold nuggets. I mean, I think my dogs are priceless, but I don't have them for sale. 
Ethical breeders need to cover the costs of planning a purposeful healthy litter and raising the puppies well. 
Well planned litters will come from parents who are health tested with results on a searchable database
The parents are also independently evaluated through showing, trialing, or competing in some way and being evaluated by an independent party. This does cost money and I don't begrudge someone trying to do things right trying to make small profit. 
But someone throwing two dogs together who happen to be the same breed or happen to be 'rare' colors (usually rare for a reason) is not breeding ethically and supporting these practices hurts dogs in the long run. 

Actually let me say that again. If you use your money to support unethical, unsound, greedy breeding practices, you are part of the problem. You are contributing to dogs dying of preventable diseases and living lives of pain and suffering. You are indirectly (or possibly directly) contributing to dogs ending up in shelters and getting euthanized because there is no more room or no one wants to take on a dog with physical or temperamental issues. 
Yes, your puppy may turn out fine, but the dam may be being bred over and over, the other puppies end up in homes where they too are bred over and over. It compounds. 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Don't be part of the problem by supporting greeders. 

Puppies are horrible little monsters that pee and poop all over the house, deprive you of sleep and annoy you all day until they fall asleep in a cute puddle for a few hours to trick you in to thinking they're worth putting up with when they wake up again. 
If you and everyone else in the household don't have a good sense of humor, a stoic attitude, and resilient MH, think long and hard if you want to put yourself through the pain that puppies are. There's a reason they make 'em cute, no one would have 'em otherwise. 

If ethical breeders and reputable rescues are all telling you you're not the best candidate to take on one of their dogs, consider that a dog may not be the best pet for you. 
On the other hand, just because one rescue rejects you or doesn't get back to you 24 hours later, don't immediately give up on the idea. It's worth looking around. It's also worth volunteering at a rescue for a while to get a better idea of what dogs are available out there, and to let them get to know you better. 

Speaking of rescues, rescues need to be researched just as carefully as breeders. A rescue that has a steady stream of puppies from abroad may be a glorified puppy mill. Research, ask questions, use your head, not your heart. 

Okay that's all I have for now


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> Puppies are horrible little monsters that pee and poop all over the house, deprive you of sleep and annoy you all day until they fall asleep in a cute puddle for a few hours to trick you in to thinking they're worth putting up with when they wake up again.
> If you and everyone else in the household don't have a good sense of humor, a stoic attitude, and resilient MH, think long and hard if you want to put yourself through the pain that puppies are. There's a reason they make 'em cute, no one would have 'em otherwise.


I agree with all of your post but this bit made me laugh..... 

Puppies are exactly all of the above & I love 'em... for all those reasons! Maybe I'm weird but there's nothing better than taking one of the above little monsters & watching it grow into the adult you have helped develop! I'm sure someone will know what I mean


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Blackadder said:


> I agree with all of your post but this bit made me laugh.....
> 
> Puppies are exactly all of the above & I love 'em... for all those reasons! Maybe I'm weird but there's nothing better than taking one of the above little monsters & watching it grow into the adult you have helped develop! I'm sure someone will know what I mean


LOL I love puppies too. But if I read one more post about a 10 week old puppy biting and/or having accidents I may scream - it's a puppy!!! That's what they DO!


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

O2.0 said:


> LOL I love puppies too. But if I read one more post about a 10 week old puppy biting and/or having accidents I may scream - it's a puppy!!! That's what they DO!


Perhaps it's pertinent to add that little puppies are not being vicious when they bite/growl/bark and hang off bits of clothing. They are just little puppies trying to play with you in the only way they know, it's up to the owner to teach the puppy how to play properly.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

@rona’s sad video of a puppy farm belongs in this thread to show the harsh reality behind the scenes


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I think there is a real problem with people being hung up on the 'puppy' stage. 

It's one of the shortest stages in the lifetime of a dog, yet it's evident that far too many people don't look beyond it at the bigger picture- the hopefully 10-15 years they will be responsible for the dog.

The reality is they will only be a puppy for a year or so, & of that time they will only be 'cute' for a matter of weeks.


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## DaisyBluebell (Apr 14, 2017)

' There's a reason they make 'em cute, no one would have 'em otherwise.'

After you start to think you want a puppy then you need to do a lot of things before getting one!

Ask yourself, why you want one first and foremost. Your puppy needs to be treated like a tiny baby remember that! Your wonderful dog will only turn into what you make it. What can you offer a puppy? How long do you expect your puppy to be left? Would you leave a small baby for hours on end? If you are off work but expect to go back to work at some stage, are you prepared to teach a puppy how to be left which starts with leaving them for just a few moments at a time & can take several weeks before you work up to an hour even. Not training for this you risk & anxious dog left alone and possibly returning to a lot of destructive behaviour & a lot of mess other than pee and poo to clear up!
Do you want a proper breed of dog or one of the designer moneymaking 'doodle or 'poo dogs which after all are just mongrels. 
Remember NO DOG IS HYPOALERGENIC so don't use that as an excuse to get a designer 'doodle or 'poo breed.
Are you prepared to give a puppy/dog a loving home from a rescue rather than encouraging more puppy breeding by possible puppy farmers?
Have your any idea how much it costs to actually own a dog? How much good Insurance costs each year for up to possibly 17 years? What will you do with a puppy/dog when you decide to go on holiday? Do you know how much it costs to put your dog in a reputable kennels if you go away? I pay at present £11 a day plus I take her own food with her!
If you want a specific breed of dog, why? If you want a typical working dog, are you going to work that dog or just have a frustrated working dog doing no work?
If you want a big dog once the puppy stage is over, can you physically handle a big dog on a lead? Have you any idea how many dog poo bags you go thru in a week!
Do you understand that the parents of a puppy of certain breeds may need to have tests done by a vet, and that you need to have paperwork to show they have been done? Buy a puppy without knowing what it may or may not develop at some time is buying heartache maybe sooner than later. Do you understand that puppy farmers or two people who want to make money by putting their two dogs together to produce puppies are very unlikely to have any tests done at all! Let alone consider the welfare of the breeding dogs, who are sometimes expected to birth many litters a year until they are too old and are then discarded or dumped! Could you recognise a puppy farm dog? Do you realise places like Gumtree & the like often sell dogs that are actually puppy farm dogs?

Are you prepared for possible sleepless nights, toilet training day and night, hands etc nipped to the point they draw blood, disgusting habits of eating their own poo & other dogs or cats poo, training them how to be left alone, learning what food does or does not make them throw up. Picking up their poo when your out? Total Cost of ownership & the devastating heartache when they grow old & you have to let them go? If yes then do all the things above BEFORE you actually get a puppy as its the most wonderful thing you can experience in this life.


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## DaisyBluebell (Apr 14, 2017)

*I AM YOUR PUPPY
*
I am your Puppy, and I will love you until the end of the Earth, but please know a few things about me.

I am your Puppy, this means that my intelligence and capacity for learning are the same as an 8-month-old child.

I am your Puppy; I will chew EVERYTHING I can get my teeth on. This is how I explore and learn about the world. Even HUMAN children put things in their mouths. It's up to you to guide me to what is mine to chew and what is not.

I am your Puppy; I cannot hold my bladder for longer than 1 - 2 hours. I cannot "feel" that I need to poop until it is actually beginning to come out. I cannot vocalize nor tell you that I need to go, and I cannot have "bladder and bowel control" until 6 - 9 months. Do not punish me if you have not let me out for 3 hours and I tinkle. It is your fault. As a Puppy, it is wise to remember that I NEED to go potty after: Eating, Sleeping, Playing, Drinking and around every 2 - 3 hours in addition. A crate will help me learn to housebreak easier, and will avoid you being mad at me.

I am your Puppy, accidents WILL happen, please be patient with me! In time I will learn.

I am your Puppy, I like to play. I will run around, and chase imaginary monsters, and chase your feet and your toes and 'attack' you, and chase fuzz balls, other pets, and small kids. It is play; it's what I do. Do not be mad at me or expect me to be sedate, mellow and sleep all day. If my high energy level is too much for you, maybe you could consider an older rescue from a shelter or Rescue group. My play is beneficial, use your wisdom to guide me in my play with appropriate toys, and activities like chasing a rolling ball, or gentle tug games, or plenty of chew toys for me. If I nip you too hard, talk to me in "dog talk", by giving a loud YELP, I will usually get the message, as this is how dogs communicate with one another. If I get too rough, simply ignore me for a few moments, or put me in my crate with an appropriate chew toy.

I am your Puppy; hopefully you would not yell, hit, strike, kick or beat a 6-month-old human infant, so please do not do the same to me. I am delicate, and also very impressionable. If you treat me harshly now, I will grow up learning to fear being hit, spanked, kicked or beat. Instead, please guide me with encouragement and wisdom. For instance, if I am chewing something wrong, say, "No chew!" and hand me a toy I CAN chew. Better yet, pick up ANYTHING that you do not want me to get into. I can't tell the difference between your old sock and your new sock, or an old sneaker and your $200 Nikes.

I am your Puppy, and I am a creature with feelings and drives much like your own, but yet also very different. Although I am NOT a human in a dog suit, neither am I an unfeeling robot who can instantly obey your every whim. I truly DO want to please you, and be a part of your family, and your life. You got me (I hope) because you want a loving partner and companion, so do not relegate me to the backyard when I get bigger, do not judge me harshly but instead mold me with gentleness and guidelines and training into the kind of family member you want me to be here.

I am a Puppy and I am not perfect, and I know you are not perfect either. I love you anyway. So please, learn all you can about training, and puppy behaviours and caring for me from your Veterinarian, books on dog care and even researching on the computer! Learn about my particular breed and it's "characteristics", it will give you understanding and insight into WHY I do all the things I do. Please teach me with love, patience, the right way to behave and socialize me with training in a puppy class or obedience class, we will BOTH have a lot of fun together.

I am your Puppy and I want more than anything to love you, to be with you, and to please you. Won't you please take time to understand how I work? We are the same you and I, in that we both feel hunger, pain, thirst, discomfort, fear, but yet we are also very different and must work to understand one another's language, body signals, wants and needs. Some day I will be a handsome dog, hopefully one you can be proud of and one that you will love as much as I love you.

Love,
Your Puppy


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## LotsaDots (Apr 15, 2016)

I have a 'pandemic puppy' but I also have a 5 year old dog so am aware of the time and commitment involved. It was the perfect time whilst working from home/furloughed but I have had to be careful not to spend too much time with my pup, eventually all this will be over and he needs to learn to be comfortable on his own. I think as long as you go in to dog ownership knowing it's for the long haul and have plans in place for the future then there is nothing wrong with embarking on the puppy roller-coaster!


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## urbantigers (Apr 13, 2014)

I hear a lot of people (in real life and online) justify getting a puppy right now because they are working from home. Most go on to say that they will continue to work from home when things are back to normal, but unless you are reaching retirement age, it’s necessary to think 10-15 years ahead. Most people will not be in the same job for the rest of their life, and their work commitments may change. Important to plan for that possibility and not just think short term.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

An interesting article about pandemic puppy selling:

https://www.janettaharvey.com/puppy-farming/dumping-pandemic-puppies-isnt-what-should-worry-us-most/


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

simplysardonic said:


> An interesting article about pandemic puppy selling:
> 
> https://www.janettaharvey.com/puppy-farming/dumping-pandemic-puppies-isnt-what-should-worry-us-most/


It's so true. So many people are trying to recoup the costs of the puppy they spent £3k on. It's so very sad.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

DaisyBluebell said:


> If you want me to sleep through the night, then do not give me water after 8 p.m. A crate will help me learn to housebreak easier, and will avoid you being mad at me.


Ummm not being adversarial here 
But 
Wasn't the above discussed, dismissed old fashioned and branded as detrimental in a thread about the vet on good morning( with Phil and Hollie) last week?
Do we really want to be posting such mixed messages, to new people, when they've come here to learn, BEFORE buying a new puppy?


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

There's ways to crate train and there's ways to not crate train, but withholding water is absolutely not on


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

mrs phas said:


> Ummm not being adversarial here
> But
> Wasn't the above discussed, dismissed old fashioned and branded as detrimental in a thread about the vet on good morning( with Phil and Hollie) last week?
> Do we really want to be posting such mixed messages, to new people, when they've come here to learn, BEFORE buying a new puppy?


I don't believe @DaisyBluebell wrote it themself, I've read it elsewhere before and it has an American tone with some of the wording. It really should be credited to the original author, and updated/edited to remove the bit about removing water.


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## DaisyBluebell (Apr 14, 2017)

simplysardonic said:


> An interesting article about pandemic puppy selling:
> 
> https://www.janettaharvey.com/puppy-farming/dumping-pandemic-puppies-isnt-what-should-worry-us-most/


I wonder if the writers of this and those that commented are aware of the impending BBC programme that we already discussed on here and hopefully have all signed the petition to stop? I will see if I can FB or message the writer and make them aware of it.

The I am Your Puppy is a very old thing written some time back & I believe, as Burrowzig noted is of American origin. I too did think that of the withholding water bit when I originally read it years ago & was going to re-type and edit but totally forgot about doing so. I will get around to it for future reference.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

simplysardonic said:


> I think there is a real problem with people being hung up on the 'puppy' stage.
> 
> It's one of the shortest stages in the lifetime of a dog, yet it's evident that far too many people don't look beyond it at the bigger picture- the hopefully 10-15 years they will be responsible for the dog.
> 
> The reality is they will only be a puppy for a year or so, & of that time they will only be 'cute' for a matter of weeks.


I love the look of a fat squishy puppy 
But 
I really hate the fact that they are so ott, don't listen (or rather do, but have the attention span of a butterfly) their landsharkiness, the fact they'll bugger off with anyone and are fickle little bundles etc 
Give me a 6 month old, ready and eager to learn, devoted to you (one would hope) wanting to please, realising their place in their, your and the world in general etc

You can take your puppies and their cuteness and darned hard work 
I refuse to let their puppy magic work on me 
Its a bit like I love babies, and am always up for a cuddle
but 
I find them boring, til they get about 6 months, also


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## kirksandallchins (Nov 3, 2007)

If I was looking for a dog, in an ideal world I'd want a slightly older dog than a puppy if possible. Say 5-12 months and housetrained.

Hearing about all the dog thefts, I would be worried that some of the dogs advertised are not family pets but have been stolen. 

I definitely would not be buying a puppy until things calm down and the pandemic is under control.


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## DaisyBluebell (Apr 14, 2017)

simplysardonic said:


> An interesting article about pandemic puppy selling:
> 
> https://www.janettaharvey.com/puppy-farming/dumping-pandemic-puppies-isnt-what-should-worry-us-most/


I did get in touch with Janetta regarding the BBC programme and got this reply :

Thank you Pat, 
Yes, aware of the BBC Show and posted it on my social media a few times. Time will tell what eventually comes out, I follow the developments and hope whatever gets made does no further harm to the dogs than is already happening on a daily basis.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

DaisyBluebell said:


> I did get in touch with Janetta regarding the BBC programme and got this reply :
> 
> Thank you Pat,
> Yes, aware of the BBC Show and posted it on my social media a few times. Time will tell what eventually comes out, I follow the developments and hope whatever gets made does no further harm to the dogs than is already happening on a daily basis.


Thankyou for that! I think it's hard to have missed the uproar over the programme, I know it's been commented on, petitioned & shared far & wide in both breeder & rescue circles.

The only people who seem to be unconcerned are those who have no interest in dogs & feel people are 'overreacting' & those who think it's acceptable to use dogs for profit.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Just looking at the forum this morning, there are so many posts about new puppies. A lot of them are sick and unwell too 
I've been on this forum for a while and I don't remember ever seeing so many new puppy posts in the dead of winter. Craziness and I fear for what rescues will be dealing with in the next year or so.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> Just looking at the forum this morning, there are so many posts about new puppies. A lot of them are sick and unwell too
> I've been on this forum for a while and I don't remember ever seeing so many new puppy posts in the dead of winter. Craziness and I fear for what rescues will be dealing with in the next year or so.


Yes 

I've also noticed recently more people joining with older puppies that are having issues, so presumably on their second or third (or even more) homes in a short space of time.


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## DaisyBluebell (Apr 14, 2017)

So sad. 
Under, even normal circumstances, winter is a crap time to get a puppy, but especially as a first time owner! Having to toilet train in the depth of winter is no joke! When they realise it can mean standing in pouring rain or freezing snow for up to possibly 30 mins  it suddenly dawns its not all joy and fun to start with.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> Just looking at the forum this morning, there are so many posts about new puppies. A lot of them are sick and unwell too
> I've been on this forum for a while and I don't remember ever seeing so many new puppy posts in the dead of winter. Craziness and I fear for what rescues will be dealing with in the next year or so.


And a lot of folk asking what to do with a pup crying at night then getting cross when you recommend comforting them. If your going to continue to leave them to cry why come on and ask ?


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> Craziness and I fear for what rescues will be dealing with in the next year or so.


Me too!
However, from a purely selfish perspective as someone who's been after a puppy but has point blank refused to line some unscrupulous scrotes pockets with ridiculous money, it's just what I've been waiting for!
I'll take an unwanted pup from some clown who thought it was "a good idea at the time" then found out that puppies were hard work & are desperate to get rid. I'm pretty sure I'm not on my own!

I feel desperately sorry for all the little mites that are currently unloved/unwanted, I wish I could have them all! I can't... one is a start.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> Just looking at the forum this morning, there are so many posts about new puppies. A lot of them are sick and unwell too
> I've been on this forum for a while and I don't remember ever seeing so many new puppy posts in the dead of winter. Craziness and I fear for what rescues will be dealing with in the next year or so.


The breeding section seems a lot busier as well...


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> And a lot of folk asking what to do with a pup crying at night then getting cross when you recommend comforting them. If your going to continue to leave them to cry why come on and ask ?





picaresque said:


> The breeding section seems a lot busier as well...


I'm struggling to respond to posts these days. Either I just can't be bothered to type out another helpful (I hope) reply to someone who isn't going to bother coming back to read it, or ignore the advice completely and continue complaining about a puppy being a completely normal puppy, or I can't bring myself to be civil at yet another breeding post where clearly not even the minimum of care was taken or research done.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> I'm struggling to respond to posts these days. Either I just can't be bothered to type out another helpful (I hope) reply to someone who isn't going to bother coming back to read it, or ignore the advice completely and continue complaining about a puppy being a completely normal puppy, or I can't bring myself to be civil at yet another breeding post where clearly not even the minimum of care was taken or research done.


I agree, it's soul destro_ying._
If I don't feel able to respond positively I slam my lap-top shut for a bit and walk away.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

I'm afraid I'm fast losing it with the whole
My puppy is biting
My puppy is 8 weeks old and wees in the house
The puppy I got yesterday won't sleep in the crate, should I give them back
My puppy wants attention, it wearing me out to the point every time it looks at me I'm crying
Brigade
Just what did they expect?
I presume these are the kind of parents whose little Karen's and Keith's come out speaking perfect English (other national languages are available) completely potty trained, sleep right through from 8pm to 7 am and are happy to amuse themselves all day, without touching anyone elses property
I really cannot be 'bottomed' with them anymore
I'm sick of the whining for attention
The snapping when they don't get what they want
The wetting all over other people's experience
And
The chewing of carpet in sheer frustration of trying to tell is were wrong and they're right
Sorry needed to get that off my chest


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

A short but pertinent article from Canine Priciples:

https://www.canineprinciples.com/bl...jcmosz4HLzo_8-HEm310bCNaOVX1nyKRQEoNf2Fz6hvbs


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## MariaS19 (Jan 17, 2021)

Good evening, this is my first post on this forum. Got to say, I finding everyone's honest and upfront opinions regarding puppies extremely useful 

I've been researching breeds, puppies, older dogs, breeders, rescue centres, dry food, raw food... you name it for a good year or so now. As much as our family are desperate to welcome a four legged doggy friend into our home, I've resisted the urge to do so in lockdown. We will be first time dog owners, and from my experience of researching it's nothing short of a minefield out there! For example, What one website recommends as 'suitable for first time dog owners' another says the total opposite. I'm sceptical of just about every post I look at where an individual or breeder is selling a pup, and the prices are beyond ridiculous. I have found some local breeders and regularly check them out on fb. We will get a pup eventually but only when the time is right. I'm terrified of ending up with an unsocialised, nervous, anxious dog so am prepared to wait a while longer until we can do things right.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

MariaS19 said:


> Good evening, this is my first post on this forum. Got to say, I finding everyone's honest and upfront opinions regarding puppies extremely useful
> 
> I've been researching breeds, puppies, older dogs, breeders, rescue centres, dry food, raw food... you name it for a good year or so now. As much as our family are desperate to welcome a four legged doggy friend into our home, I've resisted the urge to do so in lockdown. We will be first time dog owners, and from my experience of researching it's nothing short of a minefield out there! For example, What one website recommends as 'suitable for first time dog owners' another says the total opposite. I'm sceptical of just about every post I look at where an individual or breeder is selling a pup, and the prices are beyond ridiculous. I have found some local breeders and regularly check them out on fb. We will get a pup eventually but only when the time is right. I'm terrified of ending up with an unsocialised, nervous, anxious dog so am prepared to wait a while longer until we can do things right.


What breed are you looking for ? Champ dogs website is a good place to start.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I have stickied the thread, added a bit to my OP (& will continue to add to it when I get the time) & am leaving it open so people can add useful info.



MariaS19 said:


> Good evening, this is my first post on this forum. Got to say, I finding everyone's honest and upfront opinions regarding puppies extremely useful
> 
> I've been researching breeds, puppies, older dogs, breeders, rescue centres, dry food, raw food... you name it for a good year or so now. As much as our family are desperate to welcome a four legged doggy friend into our home, I've resisted the urge to do so in lockdown. We will be first time dog owners, and from my experience of researching it's nothing short of a minefield out there! For example, What one website recommends as 'suitable for first time dog owners' another says the total opposite. I'm sceptical of just about every post I look at where an individual or breeder is selling a pup, and the prices are beyond ridiculous. I have found some local breeders and regularly check them out on fb. We will get a pup eventually but only when the time is right. I'm terrified of ending up with an unsocialised, nervous, anxious dog so am prepared to wait a while longer until we can do things right.


Thankyou for being a responsible puppy buyer & waiting.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

For anyone interested APDAWG have a seminar tomorrow evening starting at 7pm:

https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/apda...mail&utm_term=eventname&ref=eemaileventremind


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I had not really thought about it till I googled for that other poster but you cannot go and look at your prospective puppy so how do you have any idea how it has been reared or even if it exists. Why on earth are there so many litters out there getting snapped up as soon as they are advertised. How do people get their puppies too as you cant fetch it yourself.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I had not really thought about it till I googled for that other poster but you cannot go and look at your prospective puppy so how do you have any idea how it has been reared or even if it exists. Why on earth are there so many litters out there getting snapped up as soon as they are advertised. How do people get their puppies too as you cant fetch it yourself.


They'll amost certainly be breaking lockdown rules.

Plus there have been a lot more people complaining of scammers after they've already handed money over so I think you're right about a lot of these puppies not even existing.

It's literally the worst time in living memory, & possibly in the entire history of keeping pets, to be considering buying a puppy & yet people are doing it in droves.


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## MariaS19 (Jan 17, 2021)

Boxer123 said:


> What breed are you looking for ? Champ dogs website is a good place to start.


Thanks for this, yes I came across champ dogs only very recently, again by this forum 

Havent settled on a final breed yet, so might put a post out for peoples opinions but we are looking at min poodle, min schnauzer and cocker spaniels. If it were my heart making the decision I'd go for a lab we all love them, but realistically I think the house is too small.


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## MariaS19 (Jan 17, 2021)

Blitz said:


> I had not really thought about it till I googled for that other poster but you cannot go and look at your prospective puppy so how do you have any idea how it has been reared or even if it exists. Why on earth are there so many litters out there getting snapped up as soon as they are advertised. How do people get their puppies too as you cant fetch it yourself.


Exactly! It all goes against all the rules suggested when buying a puppy. I wouldn't want to part with that amount of cash without seeing them with their litter mates and mum, and how would you get a feel for the breeder etc? Listings I've looked at offer WhatsApp and video calling etc with updates, but they could be anyone's? Another reason why I'm waiting. I want to see everyone in person and ask all the questions I need to ask etc. Although, no doubt the first site of a puppy running towards me will have me melted already


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## mattdanielc (Jan 25, 2021)

Blitz said:


> I had not really thought about it till I googled for that other poster but you cannot go and look at your prospective puppy so how do you have any idea how it has been reared or even if it exists. Why on earth are there so many litters out there getting snapped up as soon as they are advertised. *How do people get their puppies too as you cant fetch it yourself.*


In England you can:

Breeders and rescue centres should make arrangements to deliver your pet to you when it is ready to be rehomed. *Where this is not possible, and it is reasonably necessary for the pet's welfare, you may collect the animal*. You should collect your pet by appointment only.

You must collect the pet without entering the premises where this is a private home.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Another victim of the pandemic, originally shared by Tabelmabel on the puppy farm thread:

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/stark-warning-after-death-of-puppy-bought-on-gumtree?top


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Gosh you could weep. A few key points; 

Puppy bought as a present for 12 year old
Couldn’t meet mum or puppy’s due to lockdown. 

Would you buy a car for your child you hadn’t seen ? Lockdown is making life so much easier for puppy farmers. So sad for the puppy.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

This makes for sad reading on a number of issues not just pandemic puppies

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-55...cdgIq-7OVoSZ9JRPXj7MQmQZ_kh55jibNoeaihm_wYLzY


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

That is very sad, @Siskin. I wonder if lockdown is just making people more fragile, mentally and the very people that shouldnt be getting pups at all are the ones rushing into these buying decisions because they are vulnerable and just want something to love?

Part of me is thinking 'what is wrong with people' that they throw in the towel so fast. The couple that bought 'pudge' in that article were obviously well educated and intelligent people. And one would think a zoological scientist would have a fair understanding of animals too.

Although im not the kind of person to buy a puppy on a whim, many do (in normal times) and it turns out fantastically. So it cant all be lack of preparation.

I myself have taken a kitten from a shelter on a whim. Literally driving by, popped in and got a kitten. Kept her all of her 16yr life.

Basically though, if you're in a low place in life due to this pandemic, getting a pup wont fix that. And nor will having a baby!

Both of these are long term commitments and you need to be secure and strong to build any good long lasting relationship.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

tabelmabel said:


> That is very sad, @Siskin. I wonder if lockdown is just making people more fragile, mentally and the very people that shouldnt be getting pups at all are the ones rushing into these buying decisions because they are vulnerable and just want something to love?
> 
> Part of me is thinking 'what is wrong with people' that they throw in the towel so fast. The couple that bought 'pudge' in that article were obviously well educated and intelligent people. And one would think a zoological scientist would have a fair understanding of animals too.
> 
> ...


A lot of people think it is a good time as they are working from home and don't take time off. It's actually a terrible time you are trying to work, cannot get the pup into a good routine and the aspect of home education it's a perfect storm.

I'm not against crates but a lot of posters are coming on the dog is in the crate all night, then in the day when they are working no wonder it's going crazy.

What will happen when the kids go back to school/ weekend and evening activities. People go back to work and suddenly need to pay for a dog walker.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

tabelmabel said:


> That is very sad, @Siskin. I wonder if lockdown is just making people more fragile, mentally and the very people that shouldnt be getting pups at all are the ones rushing into these buying decisions because *they are vulnerable and just want something to love*?
> 
> Part of me is thinking 'what is wrong with people' that they throw in the towel so fast. The couple that bought 'pudge' in that article were obviously well educated and intelligent people. And one would think a zoological scientist would have a fair understanding of animals too.
> 
> ...


While I think animals can be amazing for our mental health it really doesn't sit well with me when people go in search of one specifically because they think all their problems will be magically null & void.

They are not there to be our emotional crutches, it simply isn't fair to put such expectations on an animal.

One worrying thing I have noticed more of is people who don't seem to have much understanding of differences between ESAs, therapy animals & assistance/service dogs looking for support dogs for themselves or their children & I don't really think they really know what they want, or that they require training & a suitable temperament.

I was sent this video by a friend for a bit of fun not long after we got Echo & this would probably be the scene if she had gone into a home wanting a service animal & shows brilliantly why not every dog is suitable:


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## SingingWhippet (Feb 25, 2015)

I was just reading the recent update at the top of the KC's FAQs page and they apparently saw a 15% increase in registration applications in 2020 compared to the previous year. A quick bit of maths suggests that's almost 35k extra registrations in a single year. If the usual ratio of registered vs unregistered puppies held true last year (I can't remember the exact numbers but I believe in 'normal' years many more unregistered pups are born than registered) then that 35k is really only the tip of the iceberg in terms of the number of extra puppies bred.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

simplysardonic said:


> They are not there to be our emotional crutches, it simply isn't fair to put such expectations on an animal.


Totally agree. I was just thinking why are so many that have got pups during lockdown given up so fast and that led me to think of all those folks that used to go on jeremy kyle and other similar shows. A common theme was people who had never had love as a child wanting a baby because 'it would love them'

Well, after the first few hours of a newborn's life, they are just as likely to show behaviours which aren't at all loving if needs arent met!

And then of course the cycle of poor parenting and rejection repeats. Not completely off topic this time. I think my theory of vulnerable people getting pups this lockdown might hold some water.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

7


simplysardonic said:


> While I think animals can be amazing for our mental health it really doesn't sit well with me when people go in search of one specifically because they think all their problems will be magically null & void.
> 
> They are not there to be our emotional crutches, it simply isn't fair to put such expectations on an animal.
> 
> ...


27 yrs ago, when we were looking for a new dog, we specifically knew we wanted one that would be ok with a wheelchair, as my mum was in one after a stroke, so we took her every week to the centre with us
Seeing as it was probably not something they saw everyday, it didn't come as a surprise, to us, how many dogs at the rescue centre were terrified of it 
Young and old, even 8 week old puppies, that had been born there, they saw this clunking thing that moved strangely, made wierd noises, with someone sitting in it, that did the same, and just cowered 
As we were leaving, for the 6th or 7th week of finding nothing, we passed a gentleman bringing in his OES to be rehomed. Lucy pulled him over to my mum and jumped straight up into her face, giving her a good wash, not taking any notice of owner, chair, my mum's protests, us trying to get her off, all she wanted was to be with my mum 
For the 10 years she lived with us, (14 when she passed) she was always my mum's dog, loved us, but adored her 
The point I'm finally getting at is, over those weeks we must've seen, and either rejected or the dog rejected us, nearly 50 dogs, and in the end, the dog picked her next owner, we had nothing to do with it, other than wait 3 weeks for her to be assessed as we had 3 under 3 at that time 
So how people think they can go pick up a random puppy and expect it just to settle in to their lives without making any adjustment by them I just don't understand


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## SingingWhippet (Feb 25, 2015)

One thing that's been particularly concerning me is the increasing numbers of rather more 'specialist' breeds available from dodgy sources.

The Cane Corso seems to be increasing in popularity at a rate of knots despite the fact they're really not a breed for the average person who is looking to purchase from random online ads. Six month old who is "really shy and scared around strangers", anyone?

There seem to be more adverts about for the more serious LGDs as well, particularly imports and there are a number of people crossing them at random too. Unregistered, imported Mals also seem quite popular at the moment. I keep seeing puppies and dogs advertised for the purposes of "personal protection" as well.

Not great when combined with the huge rise in people buying puppies, often with little to no research...


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

> The Cane Corso seems to be increasing in popularity at a rate of knots despite the fact they're really not a breed for the average person who is looking to purchase from random online ads. Six month old who is "really shy and scared around strangers", anyone?


Not surprising 6-10 months is about the right time for most CC to start hitting their hormones, most of those I fostered were in that age range 

Says everything about the owner in that he won't sell to anyone who wants to neuter him:Banghead:Banghead:Banghead (not that he should be at 6 months, but Def when full grown, you don't want that nervousness, scared and shyness bred)
Wish I had a grand going spare just to save him (I know, I know)


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

SingingWhippet said:


> One thing that's been particularly concerning me is the increasing numbers of rather more 'specialist' breeds available from dodgy sources.
> 
> The Cane Corso seems to be increasing in popularity at a rate of knots despite the fact they're really not a breed for the average person who is looking to purchase from random online ads. Six month old who is "really shy and scared around strangers", anyone?
> 
> ...


And almost all of them seem to be being bought, bred & owned by mouth breathing idiots living in densely populated urban areas.

It's worrying seeing the increases in both of these breeds/types of dogs, & there's been a couple of Mali/Caucasian shepherd litters advertised as well- what on earth is the goal there except a dog that has the potential to be huge, suspicious of strangers, bite happy & with little or no handler focus.

The Mali groups I'm on are inundated with people having issues, & I've seen 2 looking to rehome their older pups as they've started snapping at their children.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Article about enrichment for lockdown pups:

https://blog.itchpet.com/itch-panellist-oli-juste-talks-lockdown-pups





> [*]If your dog has lacked opportunities to experience "real life" outside over the first few months of their lives, please do not wait - get them out now. You still have an opportunity, but please do this sensitively
> [*]Start teaching your dog fun exercises and games away from distractions. First, inside your home or in your garden (if you have one), and then gradually take them to busier spots whilst still training them
> [*]Using the games mentioned above keep pets engaged and focused on you when visiting a park as it will not only help them remain calm and polite towards other dogs, and therefore safer too, it will help them cope with meeting new friends and cope with unusual new situations
> [*]To encourage dogs to be alone, consider introducing a food dispensing toy. These can be great at home if they are introduced and used appropriately. For example, make sure to introduce them as games you play together first, to not turn them into a sign that you are about to leave the house
> ...


Link to DT sound library:


__
https://soundcloud.com/dogstrust%2Fsets


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Another pandemic puppy problem - new owners arent picking up the poo:

The Guardian: Excremental growth: UK sniffs a pandemic puppy poo problem.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...growth-uk-sniffs-a-pandemic-puppy-poo-problem


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

And then there's vet services to consider.
Most vet practises are working with reduced staffing levels and social distancing meaning that owners can't take puppies in and reassure them during vaccinations and examinations , making early vet experiences quite scary and traumatic. We will end up with generations of vet-phobic dogs.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

tabelmabel said:


> Another pandemic puppy problem - new owners arent picking up the poo:
> 
> The Guardian: Excremental growth: UK sniffs a pandemic puppy poo problem.
> https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...growth-uk-sniffs-a-pandemic-puppy-poo-problem


Several of us were talking about this on Facebook just the other day, the definite increase in dog mess, the issue of people not picking it up & also of people bagging it & just leaving the bags where their dog defecates.

And while I know dog fouling is an issue on pavemets, paths & where children play or people walk, I do feel that when dogs do it in bushes, weeds, woodlands, hedgerows & so on, that 'stick & flick' is more eco friendly.

And it's not just dog mess but takeaway containers, general rubbish & fly tipping that's increased round here, I actually managed to get a traffic cone to use for the dogs' training out of the hedge near me not long back.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

It's such a shame that so many in our communities seem to have the mentality of doing the very least they are capable of, rather than the most. If more of us took more personal responsibility for our own actions, instead of thinking someone else is to blame, then we could all be pulling together for the common good.

This starts with our kids. Im sick of seeing kids _with_ parents allowed to spill off pavements right into folks gardens and trample the grass.

It's all these little disrespects unchecked in our kids that mount up into this really selfish attitude of so many. We need to be teaching a pride in our environments from the earliest years of life.

Sorry, i might be close to rambling off topic but all this whole attitude of want puppy now, dont want the attached responsibility, just want to meet my own needs etc etc is just endemic in society at the moment.

I still believe responsible, good people vastly outnumber these selfish ones but it's mess like this that just pulls the whole of society down.


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## Sheltie2021 (Sep 29, 2013)

tabelmabel said:


> Another pandemic puppy problem - new owners arent picking up the poo:
> 
> The Guardian: Excremental growth: UK sniffs a pandemic puppy poo problem.
> https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...growth-uk-sniffs-a-pandemic-puppy-poo-problem


iv noticed this on the nursery run it's only a couple mins from mine basically 1 Road and last week there was atleast 7 lots of doo poo the worst are ones we're it's clear the owner is dragging the poor dogs along as there trying to go


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## Monkeypuppy (Jan 5, 2021)

I am guilty of buying a puppy in a pandemic BUT in my defense it is something we have wanted to do for years and although I work at home and always will, the nature of my work means that I could not have trained a puppy alone, so with my husband working from home for the time being, for us it was the perfect time because he can help with the initial training.

We are also being very conscious that things will "go back to normal" at some point so we try to factor that into his routine etc. 

Everyone's situation is different and some people are being responsible and doing it for all the right reasons so I just hope that not everyone who bought a puppy in a pandemic is being judged harshly!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Seems to be a total lack of thought. On our local facebook page someone was asking if there were any puppies around, no guide on breed or size etc. Someone said there would be a litter soon, still no mention of breed. The person eventually thought to ask what breed and was told dachshund. The response, Brilliant, thanks. Surely a dachshund is not everyone's choice of dog. They are a little bit specialist.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Blitz said:


> Seems to be a total lack of thought. On our local facebook page someone was asking if there were any puppies around, no guide on breed or size etc. Someone said there would be a litter soon, still no mention of breed. The person eventually thought to ask what breed and was told dachshund. The response, Brilliant, thanks. Surely a dachshund is not everyone's choice of dog. They are a little bit specialist.


Funny enough there was a similar post on my villages Nextdoor site along the lines of 'anyone know of puppies for sale' again no mention of breed or type. There has been no replies whatsoever


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Apparently there is now so much money to be made in breeding that many people who were formerly doing ''a bit of drug dealing'' have turned to it as it does not carry the same risks (ie not likely to have police at the door with a sniffer dog looking to see if you are growing cannabis or have some baggies and a lot of cash in the drawer). Obviously if you go from drug dealing to dog breeding, the pups are highly unlikely to have the best start in life.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Siskin said:


> Funny enough there was a similar post on my villages Nextdoor site along the lines of 'anyone know of puppies for sale' again no mention of breed or type. There has been no replies whatsoever


There was one that stood out to me on a FB buy & sell group a couple of days ago, girl asking 'anyone selling puppies or kittens?', of course she got a lot of people concerned about the fact that both species are completely different.

She replied quite defensively saying she just wanted 'something for her kids & her to love'.

Cue lots of shouty, poorly spelt & angry posts in her defense calling people 'bullies', 'snowflakes', 'keyboard warriors', 'ugly c**ts' & 'sad old ladies with too much time on their hands'- I had to block some creepy guy who started stalking my profile.

According to them it's her right to have whetever she wants, whenever she wants (ie: NOW!), regardless of whether it's a suitable pet for her lifestyle & the background & welfare of the animals.

I'm stumped at how to get through to people like this who absolutely won't listen to reason, they are so used to thinking their way is the right way & can't seem to distinguish their rights from their privileges.

Informative & kind replies don't work, showing them pictures of puppy farms & horror stories don't help, being blunt as a last resort just makes people agressive.

These are the sort of people (& there are a lot of them) who keep the bad breeders in business & whose mindset is so difficult to change.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Daily Record: SSPCA seize over 150 puppies from dangerous dog breeders in one year.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/sspca-seize-over-150-puppies-23421077


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

I've seen a few issues in training groups and breed groups alike - fabric muzzles kept on young puppies to prevent biting because "nothing else worked" or they can't have the puppy biting their children, a lot of recommendations for head halters for pulling, no mention of getting the dog used to them or the potential damage they can do but hey they look "kinder" than a coke collar so it's fine right? Letting puppies cry it out when crate training 

A lot of new frustrated owners going for the quick fix as it stops the behaviour instantly I guess, without worrying about the potential ramifications further down the line or the bond with their dog. I try to stay clear of FB groups now - good information rarely gets through as it gets lost and those that shout the loudest normally win.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

simplysardonic said:


> According to them it's her right to have whetever she wants, whenever she wants (ie: NOW!)


It seems that this is now the norm in every aspect of their lives, not just with having a puppy. The sense of entitlement these days is absolutely staggering.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Another couple of useful links for puppy buyers, I'm sure they've been posted before but worth having them on here too:

https://getyourpetsafely.campaign.gov.uk/

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronav...A8tORSH8fyyKeSA1419E#buying-or-adopting-a-pet


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## SingingWhippet (Feb 25, 2015)

It's not often I'm rendered speechless but honestly... Five months old, no vaccinations, never been beyond the garden and must go this weekend. Oh, and they want over £1k for the poor little sod :Banghead :Banghead :Banghead

If you buy a puppy on a whim and decide you've made the wrong decision you _cannot_ just do the absolute bare minimum of care until you manage to flog the poor thing to get your money back. The experiences and input (or lack thereof) a puppy gets during these formative months will have ramifications throughout their entire lives. Obviously if you're getting shut of them it probably won't affect you but you _owe it_ to this little creature that _you_ decided to bring into your life not to f**k it up because you didn't bother to think beyond "Squeeeeee!! PUPPY!!".

What the hell is wrong with people?


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

SingingWhippet said:


> never been beyond the garden


Shockingly, i heard that 60% of lockdown pups have never been taken out and 30% have never met/seen another dog since purchase.


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## SingingWhippet (Feb 25, 2015)

tabelmabel said:


> Shockingly, i heard that 60% of lockdown pups have never been taken out and 30% have never met/seen another dog since purchase.


Bloody hell, that is a depressing statistic


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

SingingWhippet said:


> Bloody hell, that is a depressing statistic


Really is - and if these pups get surrendered to rescue with this kind of background, they are going to need some very dedicated new owners with experience of rehabilitation.

I wonder if many of these pandemic lockdown pups will end up euthanased. Might be the kinder option in the long run.

People seem to have got pups to satisfy their own needs with no thought at all about what a puppy needs to grow into a mentally healthy and well balanced dog


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

I think also what is concerning about this statistic if true (and it was something jeremy vine dropped into his conversation on his radio show yesterday) is that owners must have been questioned to get this info - and presumably see nothing wrong with the fact that their pup has had no exposure at all to the world ourside. They arent even shamed or embarrassed to admit it. They mustn't even know they are failing their pups


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I don’t get the bit about not having vaccinations due to covid as vets are definitely vaccinating puppies, it would be a welfare issue not to


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## SingingWhippet (Feb 25, 2015)

Siskin said:


> I don't get the bit about not having vaccinations due to covid as vets are definitely vaccinating puppies, it would be a welfare issue not to


Me neither. My pup is almost the same age and I had zero problems getting him vaccinated on the usual schedule at my normal vets. I find it extremely hard to believe there wasn't a single vet surgery within a reasonable distance that was doing vaccinations at any point since they got the pup.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

tabelmabel said:


> Shockingly, i heard that 60% of lockdown pups have never been taken out and 30% have never met/seen another dog since purchase.


Where did you hear that?

I would imagine that particular statistic can't be based on research and fact, unless every single person who has bought a pup has been surveyed.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Rafa said:


> Where did you hear that?
> 
> I would imagine that particular statistic can't be based on research and fact, unless every single person who has bought a pup has been surveyed.


The article I read a couple of weeks ago claimed that a large percentage of puppies bought in lockdown hadn't been 'to a park', but I fail to see an issue with that personally, my dogs aren't exercised in a park & I imagine a lot of dogs, especially in rural areas, don't visit parks on a regular basis.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

simplysardonic said:


> The article I read a couple of weeks ago claimed that a large percentage of puppies bought in lockdown hadn't been 'to a park', but I fail to see an issue with that personally, my dogs aren't exercised in a park & I imagine a lot of dogs, especially in rural areas, don't visit parks on a regular basis.


Well, as we know, there are those who believe that if their 'Furbaby' doesn't go to the park every day and racket round with other dogs, then it's deprived.


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## JoanneKen (Feb 6, 2021)

I agree that separation anxiety could be a really big problem for all these lockdown puppies. Hopefully owners are figuring out ways to get their puppy's used to being alone on occasion, and increasing that as time goes by so that they don't have a problem later on if they have to go back to work outside of the house.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

tabelmabel said:


> Shockingly, i heard that 60% of lockdown pups have never been taken out and 30% have never met/seen another dog since purchase.


My dogs have never been 'socialised' or at least not since we have lived here - since 1983. Yet none of them have been nervous or aggressive when something happens that they are suddenly in a social situation. I even took one middle aged dog on holiday , she had never been in traffic , never been in a strange house and rarely mixed with other dogs yet she was fine with it. Toffee and Candy hardly went on the lead or saw another dog till they were fairly mature and apart from Toffee being a bit of pain getting over excited even at the grand age of 10 they have never been a problem.



JoanneKen said:


> I agree that separation anxiety could be a really big problem for all these lockdown puppies. Hopefully owners are figuring out ways to get their puppy's used to being alone on occasion, and increasing that as time goes by so that they don't have a problem later on if they have to go back to work outside of the house.


Surely everyone goes out , even if just to the shops, so should not be difficult to leave a puppy on its own regularly. I think my dogs are relieved when I go out and leave them, we have been tending to take them in the car when we go out. We were getting ready to go out today, Toffee came through to the kitchen and I told her she was not coming so stood and watched and waited for her gravy bone. Candy must have heard because she did not bother coming through at all!


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Blitz said:


> My dogs have never been 'socialised' or at least not since we have lived here - since 1983. Yet none of them have been nervous or aggressive when something happens that they are suddenly in a social situation. I even took one middle aged dog on holiday , she had never been in traffic , never been in a strange house and rarely mixed with other dogs yet she was fine with it. Toffee and Candy hardly went on the lead or saw another dog till they were fairly mature and apart from Toffee being a bit of pain getting over excited even at the grand age of 10 they have never been a problem.


I know - i have heard you say this before and it's not that i dont believe you - i just know you are a sociable person that probably had folk around your land and home and maybe they got more experience than you thought.

That dog we had from a pet shop in the late 70s - i think pups were sold younger then at 6 weeks? Anyway, we never did anything training wise or any other wise with her. We lived on a country lane and used to let her out like we let our cat out. She'd wander around our home and road and we sometimes took her a little walk in the fields and she turned out the loveliest dog and slotted great into city centre life, never any trouble.

That said, where i live now - on my street we had 2 homes (now one) that *never *take their dogs out. One has 3 cairn terriers - got 3 so they had company. They go into the garden only and are the yappiest dogs of all. I did meet them out on leads once. And only once. Stopped to have a convo with the owner (who i know as an aquaintance) and we couldnt talk as the 3 dogs were hysterical, we couldnt hear each other at all.

The other home was my next door neighbour (now moved away) 2 bichons again never ever went out. One got out and bit the postman once. Apart from that, they spent their lives yapping.

I think it is very different living on a farm and having your dogs out and about whilst you do your daily activities to having a dog that never gets out of a house and garden. All dogs need to sniff and do dog things to be mentally healthy.

It was the late john fisher who went to a clients home to find the client proudly boasting that his dog had the run of his enormous home and huge garden "The size of your prison does not impress me" he said.

I dont actually know what research jeremy vine was quoting from there. I cant find it. It cropped up in an item he ran on pet food banks - he just dropped it in and moved on.

Surely you cannot be advocating that it is perfectly fine for a dog to never get outside its own home and garden though?

ETA - i said on that other thread i had 2 lovely dogs but i dont actually have 2 well socialised dogs. Murphy is good as he was raised in a family home with children and other animals too.

Tilly, as a working breed, was raised in an outdoor shed so was not socialised to household sounds at all. All her littermates were sold on as working dogs to continue living outdoors.

I did my best with Tilly of course but she still is wary of the hoover - she doesnt attack it but leaves the room where it is is use, whereas i can hoover right around murph and he wont move a muscle. Tilly is also scared of my steam mop. There might be some other things too but i cant think off the top of my head what they might be.

I think also worth bearing in mind that an estimated 25% of pandemic puppies are puppy farmed (i do have the report for this if anyone wants it pasted here)

So these pups are coming from very bad breeding and environmental conditions and then spending the remainder of their early formative weeks cooped up indoors.

That is a very different puppy all together from the one you probably picked up from a normal human being and brought into a very normal home set up - whether that was on your land with all the sights, sounds, smells and mental stimulation of working your sheep or in your home where im sure you have various normal comings and goings.

I predict that many of these pandemic pups are ticking time bombs and will not be suitable for rehoming with anyone if they are surrendered.

It will be interesting to re visit this thread in a year or two and just see if i am right!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

simplysardonic said:


> The article I read a couple of weeks ago claimed that a large percentage of puppies bought in lockdown hadn't been 'to a park', but I fail to see an issue with that personally, my dogs aren't exercised in a park & I imagine a lot of dogs, especially in rural areas, don't visit parks on a regular basis.


I don't know what they mean by park but if it's a dog park no thank you. The only time Bates has been near a dog park was to do some training on the outside of it to practice with distractions. 
Penny has never been to a park of any kind. She doesn't look deprived to me...


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> I don't know what they mean by park but if it's a dog park no thank you. The only time Bates has been near a dog park was to do some training on the outside of it to practice with distractions.
> Penny has never been to a park of any kind. She doesn't look deprived to me...


I was thinking they mean city or town parks (not all of which allow dogs, & some are on-lead dogs only), they're not quite as bad as the free-for-all orgy of mayhem dog-specific parks that seem to prevail on your side of the Atlantic.

They're still not somewhere I'd go out of my way to take the dogs as they are ultimately busy, noisy & frequented by the 'it's OK, he's FRIENDLEEEEE!' brigade.

Parks can also mean land managed by the National Trust or other organisations over here, they're usually very good places to walk in peace if we go when the tourists are out of season

ETA: Oh & National Parks are parks as well, I guess!

Keep thinking of more & more types of park, but when I think of 'taking my dog for a walk in the park' it's the type I mentioned first, or the one where Pongo meets Perdita in 101 Dalmatians that come to mind!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

tabelmabel said:


> I know - i have heard you say this before and it's not that i dont believe you - i just know you are a sociable person that probably had folk around your land and home and maybe they got more experience than you thought.
> 
> That dog we had from a pet shop in the late 70s - i think pups were sold younger then at 6 weeks? Anyway, we never did anything training wise or any other wise with her. We lived on a country lane and used to let her out like we let our cat out. She'd wander around our home and road and we sometimes took her a little walk in the fields and she turned out the loveliest dog and slotted great into city centre life, never any trouble.
> 
> ...


I do agree with you. Of course a dog should not be kept shut in a garden and house with no stimulation.

I have had pups too that have been reared outside and never really met anyone but still been normal squirmy puppies. I have also had one from a very good breeder who kennelled all her dogs and had run this pup on so she was slightly older when I got her and she was shy with men and did not much like big indoor dog shows but apart from that she took all her new life in her stride.

I know it is ideal to let your pup see as much as possible in the first few weeks with you and for it to have been reared in a house and got used to household sounds and smells but I do not think it is essential for that to have happened to end up with a happy well rounded dog. It would be really interesting to do a survey and find out what start in life all the 'problem' dogs had. I do think that there are too many breeders not breeding for temperament which is the most important thing for me.

By the way , I do not know how many dogs I have had that have attacked the hoover. They seem to find it is either plaything no 1 or enemy no 1.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Blitz said:


> By the way , I do not know how many dogs I have had that have attacked the hoover. They seem to find it is either plaything no 1 or enemy no 1.


Can you even call yourself a dog owner if you don't have a vacuum cleaner with some tooth marks on it?


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I do agree with you. Of course a dog should not be kept shut in a garden and house with no stimulation.
> 
> I have had pups too that have been reared outside and never really met anyone but still been normal squirmy puppies. I have also had one from a very good breeder who kennelled all her dogs and had run this pup on so she was slightly older when I got her and she was shy with men and did not much like big indoor dog shows but apart from that she took all her new life in her stride.
> 
> ...


Or they will just stand there like fools & get vacuumed, as Bob did, & Echo now does


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Blitz said:


> I do think that there are too many breeders not breeding for temperament which is the most important thing for me.


Interestingly, this very subject came up on the dunbar talk on the winter summit. Obvs i can only comment on what dunbar says as i dont have anywhere near the experience needed with dogs to make my own observations.

However, it is his belief (from the results of his work and research) that early socialisation counts far more towards a well balanced dog than breeding for temperament.

I _think_ his thinking would be that, as long as a pup receives plentiful socialisation in those crucial early weeks, it can be a sound dog, regardless of breed.

Have a listen to his talk (that part is near the end) he is a good speaker and easy to listen to. It is certainly an interesting topic


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

tabelmabel said:


> However, it is his belief (from the results of his work and research) that early socialisation counts far more towards a well balanced dog than breeding for temperament.


I absolutely disagree.

Appropriate socialisation is relevant and useful, but if you breed from dogs with poor temperaments, it's a recipe for disaster.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Rafa said:


> I absolutely disagree.
> 
> Appropriate socialisation is relevant and useful, but if you breed from dogs with poor temperaments, it's a recipe for disaster.


Agree with that one Rafa having experienced it first hand.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

simplysardonic said:


> Or they will just stand there like fools & get vacuumed, as Bob did, & Echo now does


Ha ha murph does that - i literally vacuum right into the underbelly of his hoizontal bod! How i have not caught any of his hair, i dont know! When i tell him to shift, he goes about half a foot and re settles!


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## Nicola234 (Nov 10, 2020)

My dog runs upstairs when you Hoover like it’s a monster lol but you literally have to lift the cat out the way, he won’t move at all! Lol


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Siskin said:


> Agree with that one Rafa having experienced it first hand


What have you experienced first hand? Whatever it is will be hidden in my ignored content (which i never, ever uncover) I am wondering what it is though!!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Rafa said:


> Appropriate socialisation is relevant and useful, but if you breed from dogs with poor temperaments, it's a recipe for disaster.


For sure! 
It's hard to overcome an inherently unstable temperament.

Conversely though, it's amazing what dogs can overcome with a sound temperament.
Bates is the poster child for dogs who are good with kids are born, not made. Zero socialization or purposeful interactions with anything until he was a year old. He for sure missed every important socialization window, yet he's as bombproof with people as you could ask, and he has a special affinity for children.

Penny has been really interesting to watch progress too. She's clearly a fearful dog, yet she is also inherently a resilient dog and naturally curious. Once she gets a chance to investigate and learns something is okay, she moves on from it. It make it so much easier to deal with her fears because as long as I don't push her or feed in to the fear, she learns what's okay pretty quickly.

I've dealt with dogs who lack resilience and it's so much harder to handle that fearful behavior. And they don't do as well in the long run either. When a bad experience sets the dog back for days as opposed to a few minutes, seconds even, it's a massive difference.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

tabelmabel said:


> What have you experienced first hand? Whatever it is will be hidden in my ignored content (which i never, ever uncover) I am wondering what it is though!!


Poor temperament in a dog. Despite socialisation as a puppy with people and other dogs she disliked them both apart from a very select few. Met others from the same breeder and they were all the same either grumpy madams or scared witless.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> For sure!
> It's hard to overcome an inherently unstable temperament.
> 
> Conversely though, it's amazing what dogs can overcome with a sound temperament.
> ...


She sounds very much like Vanya, who is easily spooked but recovers quickly. The rescue described the dogs as 'shut down', & I was expecting her to be a lot worse than she was when she arrived but she surprised us with how quickly she settled.

Rogue on the other hand has a lot of anxiety yet was raised in a home from 8 weeks & shown nothing but kindness, managing that is trickier but she's definitely better with age- it took us a long time to persuade her that we are her protectors.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Thanks @Siskin - i expect if they all came from the same breeder, the very early socialisation that a good breeder would do was lacking (i think this is what Dunbar would say) The socialisation starts well before 7 or 8 weeks.

All of his talk on the winter summit is very interesting but this temperament stuff is in the final 20 mins of it, im sure. I expect he has had the benefit of getting in to these very tiny pups of typically 'dangerous' breeds and turning them into very safe and sound adult dogs. Something few of us would have the ability or opportunity to do so I would have to agree that buying from a breeder who breeds for temperament is very wise.

Anyway, im going to leave this thread here as i think well over 50% of it is missing from my screen. All i have is a bit of light chit chat about dogs and hoovers and then your intriguing post in the midsts of that:Hilarious


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

tabelmabel said:


> Interestingly, this very subject came up on the dunbar talk on the winter summit. Obvs i can only comment on what dunbar says as i dont have anywhere near the experience needed with dogs to make my own observations.
> 
> However, it is his belief (from the results of his work and research) that *early socialisation counts far more towards a well balanced dog than breeding for temperament.*
> 
> ...


Was an interesting podcast definitely & something that I've discussed previously with the dog trainer I see ... who would disagree! We've discussed this alot & his thinking is that it's alot more to do with genetics & then the relationship with the handler than socialisation as such (I haven't had enough experience to really have an opinion tho!). He doesn't actually do much socialisation with his pups but more builds on the relationship with him then exposes them to different things (surfaces, noises, smells, etc) but doesn't take them out as I would with mine.

I listened to Ivan Balabanov podcast the other day where he discussed the history of the Malinois he breeds & how they are 'genetically sound' which is so much more important than people realise. Lots of interesting discussions & opinions


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Oh @Cleo38 - you have brought me back to the thread i have just said im leaving:Hilarious I can actually see your very interesting post though

Yes it is very interesting, no doubt. My murphy came from a litter of 8 and one of his sisters, i dont know what went wrong but she is really messed up and cant be near any other dogs - she turned up to a meet of all the pups when they were all about a yr old and it was very alarming - i cant even describe the noise that came out of her when their car boot opened; it was pretty horrific.

They never came to another meet and the breeder did say things really went from bad to worse with that particular one and it really is a very difficult dog.

I find it fascinating but just dont know dogs well enough really to draw my own opinions - a long time ago, i trained and worked as a speech and language therapist. That was my first job and involved a lot of study on critical periods of development both in babies and children as well as well known studies involving animals. I have always found this very, very interesting - especially the story of Genie, the neglected child who never developed language. (Critical period for developing language over by the time she was found)

During the course of my work, i came into contact with many children with very delayed development stemming from lack of appropriate early years experience and remediating that was often successful to an extent but these children would always really be hampered by what was missed in those crucial early years.

Dunbar's work on socialisation is really interesting to me and i have read and listened to loads of his stuff; a lot of what he says i can relate to stuff i already know from my human psychology and development stuff. I was only in speech and language therapy for about 15 years, but continued working with very young babies and children once i came out of that and have seen first hand over and over again how important that very early years education is - before these 'windows' close. It makes sense to me to get in early with pups before the critical periods close too.

Im sure, genetically, there are certain individual human babies that are destined to be very dysfunctional people no matter how good their upbringing and that there are puppies genetically hard wired to be 'dysfunctional' (for want of a better word) too but the vast majority of human babies have the potential to be very well adjusted adults if raised with attention to their needs so Dunbar's observations made sense to me when i heard him talk.

Fascinating stuff


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

tabelmabel said:


> Oh @Cleo38 - you have brought me back to the thread i have just said im leaving:Hilarious I can actually see your very interesting post though
> 
> Yes it is very interesting, no doubt. My murphy came from a litter of 8 and one of his sisters, i dont know what went wrong but she is really messed up and cant be near any other dogs - she turned up to a meet of all the pups when they were all about a yr old and it was very alarming - i cant even describe the noise that came out of her when their car boot opened; it was pretty horrific.
> 
> ...


Definitely so interesting! I remember reading a book about Genie, so upsetting to see how she was so deprived of so many things including her future.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> We've discussed this alot & his thinking is that it's alot more to do with genetics & then the relationship with the handler than socialisation as such


Just to add to this point a bit from observations i have made of my friend with her agility collies (and thinking of @Blitz's experience) I do think there is a difference between owning a pet dog to owning a dog used for work/sport/showing.

So my friend has 3 collies and she does walk them every day of course, in many different locations, but because of their training, they stick pretty much right by her and very focused on her. If an oncoming dog off lead is approaching, she simply says "behind" and her 3 dogs line up behind her.

However, if the oncoming dog happens to get right into her dogs, they will definitely grumble and one in particular will have a good go at a pin down!

To have dogs like that for sports or work is perfect - just what you want. Dogs focused on the handler. If you have dogs that compete, you need them to be able to remain calm _around_ other dogs but not necessarily to remain calm when jumped by other dogs.

To go back to Dunbar - a lot of his work is focused on making dogs _safe_ in a pet dog home scenario. I know he has his own other stuff he does with his malinois but he also has work stemming from his research on the amount of pet dogs euthanased for behaviour issues.

So that part of his work is focused on what needs to be done to make a pet dog safe in a home full of kids and chaos (and he doesnt seem to rate most pet dog trainers with very skilled training ability!)

My dogs are both in that pet dog category. They arent that good at focus on me during walks and nor do they get in behind me when off lead dogs approach - but it doesnt matter. Because, unlike my friend's sports collies, my dogs can deal with any approaching dog in a friendly way. They dont always get on - sometimes they go by, have a sniff, have a play. Whatever.

It doesnt really matter what dog is oncoming when we turn that corner - never ever a problem and that must be something to do with them being exposed to a lot of dog-dog meets early enough.

I know the PF point of view is to keep dogs dog neutral and it's perfectly understandable if your dogs go for an oncoming dog (as my friend's collies would) and that makes total sense for a highly trained working dog and perfectly good if you live more remotely and dont need to share space with many other dogs.

But where i am (and i am not a park dog walker at all) i do need to share space with other off lead dogs and it is very relaxing to know that my dogs get on with other dogs and people; really anything at all they take in their stride.

So - to go back to thread topic. Buying pups in a pandemic. Most of these pups are going into pet homes where the level of training will be low. They wont be trained up for competitive sports or work.

And if they are in their homes now, not getting any exposure to all those things in the outside world - when the warm weather comes, and these dogs are then suddenly taken to the local park full of other pandemic pups, kids, noise etc.

Well. I predict a riot. And i do agree with many of these pups genetically of bad temperament plus poor socialisation. Disaster.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> it's alot more to do with genetics & then the relationship with the handler than socialisation as such


Absolutely. I agree with your trainer here on this one. 
I do like some of Dunbar's stuff, but I find myself disagreeing with him on several points. The socialization one for sure. 
It reminds me a little of the "It's all in how you raise them" brigade which we generally scoff on here. No one with any experience with dogs believes you can 'socialize' the drive to herd out of a collie, or the drive to hunt out of a spaniel, yet somehow we accept that you can somehow fix an inherent temperament flaw with enough socialization. I could socialize Penny to rodents all day long and she would still want to kill them. She's a terrier through and through.

It also bothers me that this emphasis on early socialization adds to the stigma against rescue dogs. If early socialization is so critical, how do so many adult rescues turn out just fine? OH and I have taken on multiple dogs as adults. The most troubled of all our dogs was one we got as a 4 week old puppy, found under a mobile home, littermates dead, mama dog nowhere to be found. He was a tiny puppy when we got him, we raised him in a home with 3 other stable, normal dogs, we did all the critical socialization with him yet he still had what I would call a doggy form of agoraphobia. He was fine at home, I could never get him to be comfortable away from home. 
Meanwhile Bates had just as rough a start in life, he was found as a puppy on death's door under a wood pile at a lumber mill. No littemates around, just him, so emaciated they didn't think he would make it through the night. He's as unflappable as you can get in a dog. 
Lunar came to us as an adult, feral, had been shot, the wound had healed without any medical intervention obviously as it was a gnarled mess of a leg, he was deemed unadoptable because he was so aggressive to humans. Once he settled he too was a totally trustworthy, mellow, easy to get along with dog with the best dog skills I've ever known in a dog. 
But I've also known troubled dogs like Lunar with much worse outcomes who never get over the poor treatment. 
Temperament is the only difference. A dog with an inherently resilient, sound temperament has a much better chance of being fine no matter what you throw at them, whereas a dog with an inherently unsound temperament will not be okay not matter how well you raise them.



tabelmabel said:


> I find it fascinating but just dont know dogs well enough really to draw my own opinions - a long time ago, i trained and worked as a speech and language therapist. That was my first job and involved a lot of study on critical periods of development both in babies and children as well as well known studies involving animals. I have always found this very, very interesting - especially the story of Genie, the neglected child who never developed language. (Critical period for developing language over by the time she was found)


Language development is also my area of expertise and more recent research shows the brain is far more plastic than we previously thought. In other words with new techniques and understandings, particularly around how trauma affects the brain and learning, children and adults can overcome a lot of early losses.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

To add to my post (I could talk about this for hours, I find it fascinating), temperament itself is so much more than 'sound' and 'unsound.' 
For example Penny is a somewhat fearful dog, but she's also very resilient, and extremely curious. Her curiosity overpowers her fear and that makes it really easy to encourage her to investigate something suspicious, realize it's okay, and move on. 
Meanwhile Biko, our mobile home pup was also a fearful dog, but he had no curiosity about the world, so no drive to check out things that scared him. He would just avoid them and it made it much harder to show him that those scary things were okay. 

Working with great dane rescue, a breed with guarding instincts, the combination of fearful nature with guarding instincts is a terrible combination and most of those dogs end up euthanized. I would much rather deal with an overly confident dog who is inappropriate in their guarding than a fearful dog who's inappropriate with their guarding. Lunar had plenty of confidence. He knew he was bigger and stronger than you and he simply wasn't going to be pushed around. Once we developed a shared language and he understood our relationship wasn't confrontational, he was the easiest dog in the world to get along with. Nothing fazed him. Just don't pick a fight with him


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> To add to my post (I could talk about this for hours, I find it fascinating), temperament itself is so much more than 'sound' and 'unsound.'
> For example Penny is a somewhat fearful dog, but she's also very resilient, and extremely curious. Her curiosity overpowers her fear and that makes it really easy to encourage her to investigate something suspicious, realize it's okay, and move on.
> Meanwhile Biko, our mobile home pup was also a fearful dog, but he had no curiosity about the world, so no drive to check out things that scared him. He would just avoid them and it made it much harder to show him that those scary things were okay.
> 
> Working with great dane rescue, a breed with guarding instincts, the combination of fearful nature with guarding instincts is a terrible combination and most of those dogs end up euthanized. I would much rather deal with an overly confident dog who is inappropriate in their guarding than a fearful dog who's inappropriate with their guarding. Lunar had plenty of confidence. He knew he was bigger and stronger than you and he simply wasn't going to be pushed around. Once we developed a shared language and he understood our relationship wasn't confrontational, he was the easiest dog in the world to get along with. Nothing fazed him. Just don't pick a fight with him


Definitely, as well as it's not as B&W as nature vs nurture ... especially of you then think of epigenetics, etc.

I suppose it also depends on what people want from a dog. Roxy was probably a guarding dog but fearful which made her very worrying initially. However this was overcome as she settled in & we bonded more. She was always going to be a dog who was suspicious of anything new or new people (whereas Archer was the opposite!). This wasn't a problem tho as I knew her every well & managed situations appropriately. At home she was a great guard dog & showed the traits that living where I do I actually wanted.

Now I have Kato who (although slightly related to Archer) is completely different to him. Archer is a very biddable, handler focussed dog whereas Kato is very independent. Kato is very alert to the environment (hence I've been watching Denise Fenzi's videos with Dice) but Archer was oblivious to anything else other than me for the first 2yrs of his life.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Piece from The Times.
I haven't printed the link as it will only take you to a page asking for a subscription

The first time an online puppy seller told me he couldn't facetime his puppies or send videos of them because he'd dropped his phone in the bath the day before, I believed him. When his new phone still hadn't arrived a day later, I began to wonder. When three more sellers also turned out to have remarkably slippery phones or weak grips, because their mobiles too had just fallen into the sink or loo or water bowl, affecting their photos and videos but not their messaging, emails, internet or calls, I knew I was an idiot.

It was a slow-dawning business, realising that the puppy-buying world is not all contented dogs sprawling in warm kitchens. I thought I'd done the vital research after three years of wanting a dog. Breed, characteristics, size; how much exercise, training and attention they needed; who would look after it when we were away. A rescue dog wasn't an option as those near us required experience. Finding a puppy would just need dedication and patience, especially during a lockdown pet boom when most good licensed breeders had closed their waiting lists until later this year.

Of course I'd heard of puppy farms and cruel owners. They would be easy to avoid. I wouldn't buy from unscrupulous big breeders, nor from anyone who didn't know and love their dogs. Families with a litter from a beloved pet would be ideal. And luckily that's what the pet websites were offering in hundreds of listings.

Pretty much everybody was breeding for only the first or second time from their dear Daisy or Rosie, everyone had an excellent stud or pet as a father, all puppies were in happy family homes.

The first shock was the prices. Dogs of the kind I was looking for, cockapoos or cavapoos, had sold for £1,000 two years ago, had doubled in price in the first lockdown and were now between £2,500 and £4,500. The second shock was how fast they sold. By the time I had asked a handful of questions it was often too late. Entire litters, whether they were anonymous piglet-like newborns or six-week-old charmers, were being reserved by non-refundable deposits of up to £1,000 within five hours.

The pandemic meant that all the normal checks that buyers are urged to do - meeting breeders, puppies and their mothers at home, examining health records in person, never paying deposits without viewings - couldn't happen. Securing a puppy online gave little time for caution. Speed and superficiality were everything.

Each time I clicked on a posting I felt like a gambler placing a chip: surely this lovely household/dog would be a win? Slowly those hopes dwindled. The sellers who still had pups for sale could be oddly ignorant. That was easily explained. Several of the Rachels/Daves/Farzads who had placed ads turned out, as they eventually admitted, to be Billie/Annie/Bob, kindly looking after their father's/sister's/aunt's pet because the owner was shielding/sick/had suffered a stroke. They didn't want to trouble vulnerable relatives so they didn't have any early photos or health information, just the advert's shots of stunned-looking puppies posed fetchingly on a sheepskin, or peeking over a sofa with a ribbon on their heads.

Nor did most of these pet-lovers ask me anything about the puppy's future home. For all they cared I could have been planning dog stew.

The videocalls I was reluctantly granted were chilling. Nervous puppies, supposedly handled from birth, sat visibly shaking in the middle of a bare veneered floor, retreating warily from their owners' hands. Children and puppies left on a carpet covered in a tangle of PlayStation wires to show off a loving dog-friendly family were mutually wary; clearly they had never met or touched before. A female dog, a supposed mother, stalked into a roomful of puppies who ignored her, and she them. "Mum! Come Mum!" the seller pleaded hopelessly in the least plausible interaction with a familiar pet I've ever seen.

I stopped after six full-time days of this, sickened by learning to be perpetually suspicious of every seller, and by this glimpse of - what, exactly? Cheats, conmen, casual cruelty or carelessness? Nothing I had seen met the pet charities' bar for necessary reporting in a resources-stretched pandemic - an immediate threat to life or provable cruelty. It simply felt wrong. Was I imagining it?

Probably not, says Amy Ockelford of the RSPCA. The rewards from dog breeding are so fast and vast that both greedy individuals and criminal gangs have taken it up. A nine to 11-dog litter can net between £30,000 and £50,000 in cash. It's so much easier and less risky to make money from dogs than drugs that big gangs are either paying families to pretend to be owners for a few days, or renting empty houses briefly as front operations for brutal puppy farms, and placing womenand children in them as props. Those dogs are often sick or scarred for life.

Some of those operations have been busted but the pandemic makes identification far harder and police, councils and charities can't keep up. No one knows what proportion of puppies are being badly bred. The only hope is that buyers will learn to be alert, distinguish bad breeders from genuine ones and back away.

I may have been lucky at last. A retired couple near by really do seem to have bred their pets. They send daily videos of the puppies tumbling joyfully round their kitchen and nibbling at their hands; they're infectiously enthusiastic. It's nine days to puppy day. I'm living in hope.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Siskin said:


> Piece from The Times.
> I haven't printed the link as it will only take you to a page asking for a subscription
> 
> The first time an online puppy seller told me he couldn't facetime his puppies or send videos of them because he'd dropped his phone in the bath the day before, I believed him. When his new phone still hadn't arrived a day later, I began to wonder. When three more sellers also turned out to have remarkably slippery phones or weak grips, because their mobiles too had just fallen into the sink or loo or water bowl, affecting their photos and videos but not their messaging, emails, internet or calls, I knew I was an idiot.
> ...


Interesting article.

It does surprise me that despite all their research they have still settled on a type of dog (poodle cross) that is currently one of the most likely to be exploited by BYBs & PFs, & don't seem to be aware of health testing.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

simplysardonic said:


> Interesting article.
> 
> It does surprise me that despite all their research they have still settled on a type of dog (poodle cross) that is currently one of the most likely to be exploited by BYBs & PFs, & don't seem to be aware of health testing.


I thought that too, it's a pity all health testing is not pushed more in the media. There are some now that do the cheapest and easiest tests like dna and claim they are selling puppies from health tested parents. It's only when you dig a bit that you find out how little is done


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Siskin said:


> I thought that too, it's a pity all health testing is not pushed more in the media. There are some now that do the cheapest and easiest tests like dna and claim they are selling puppies from health tested parents. It's only when you dig a bit that you find out how little is done


Especially with crosses using cavs, not a healthy breed, so health testing is so vital, we had some very sad news the other day that our nephew's cavalier had to be PTS, he wasn't that old, 7 or 8


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## TheCAD21 (Jul 15, 2017)

Whilst we’ve decided on a breed we’ve decided to hold off getting a puppy for now. Over the last few days I’ve spoken to two lovely breeders who are both saying the right things about testing etc.

They both also said the same thing that they are terrified of their puppies being bought and sold on by dodgy people and feel that they have no alternative than to charge the “market rate” to stop that from happening.

There is no way I am paying £3k especially when their own breed club has recommended a top amount to charge and they’re all ignoring that guidance (and I can see why given the above).

Hopefully if/when things settle down so will prices of puppies.

A little sad but it is what it is.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Blitz said:


> Surely everyone goes out


I know a number of people who never go out. They don't have lock down puppies though.


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## Boojie (Feb 23, 2021)

Hi, we are thinking of adding to our human family with a new canine member. My daughter is keen for a cavapoo, I just have a few questions that maybe I can get help with. My preference would be a rescue dog but most are not suitable for younger children. With regard to cavapoos people seem to be generally against them in forums like these, why is this? I thought interbreeding led to healthier dogs, for me I don't like certain physical characteristics caused by breeding such as breathing difficulties, or long backs that lead to potential health problems laters on. My concern with the cavapoo are the heart risks inherited from the CKC spaniel, is there any way to mitigate this? Go to a trusted breeder? Is this the best way to acquire a dog rather than pets4home or other such sites? I will likely wait for lockdown to ease and normal life resumes because I think its fairer to bring a puppy into the house when normality resumes. I appreciate any advice to a first time like me, I have tried to do my research...


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

Boojie said:


> Hi, we are thinking of adding to our human family with a new canine member. My daughter is keen for a cavapoo, I just have a few questions that maybe I can get help with. My preference would be a rescue dog but most are not suitable for younger children. With regard to cavapoos people seem to be generally against them in forums like these, why is this? I thought interbreeding led to healthier dogs, for me I don't like certain physical characteristics caused by breeding such as breathing difficulties, or long backs that lead to potential health problems laters on. My concern with the cavapoo are the heart risks inherited from the CKC spaniel, is there any way to mitigate this? Go to a trusted breeder? Is this the best way to acquire a dog rather than pets4home or other such sites? I will likely wait for lockdown to ease and normal life resumes because I think its fairer to bring a puppy into the house when normality resumes. I appreciate any advice to a first time like me, I have tried to do my research...


Typically Cavapoos are bred purely for profit and sold with a lot of lies - no health tests done on the parents. The mix has nothing to offer either breed.

It's extremely difficult to find a health testing cross breeder - most people do it for the money, not for the health.

They are often sold as hypoallergenic which again - isn't true, the dogs could have a poodle coat, Cavalier coat or a mix of the two and puppies will vary with different coats in each litter. Poodle crosses are sadly known for having difficult coats, often becoming very matted if it isn't kept on top of with daily brushing ensuring you're getting all the hair and not simply the top coat, many groomers pages will have images of them having to get a near entire matted coat off a dog when poodle crosses haven't been groomed correctly.

Cavaliers should be heart scanned by a cardiologist every 12 months to monitor MVD as it is very common within the breed - there is no genetic test for it, so dogs must be heart scanned. If their parents were also heart scanned it gives an even better view of previously history within each breeder's lines and a breeder working hard to test for MVD isn't going to sell a dog to be used for cross-breeding - it offers nothing to further Cavaliers or help their health situation. Typically Cavaliers aren't bred from until a much older age - sometimes even 3-4 years old.

Syringomyelia is also know with Cavs - the only test available is an MRI scan to see if both parents are clear.

There is also hereditary cataract and multi-focal retinal dysplasia - plus other eye conditions in Cavaliers so eye screening is recommending on both parents as well as the puppies once they're old enough and still with the breeder.

I know Poodles also are at risk of eye conditions so again parents must be screened - or DNA tested if a test is available.

My advice is to pick one breed or the other - approach the breed club as they often have a higher standard of health and they'll be able to point you in the direction of breeders expecting litters or planning for them - expect to wait but it would be worth it.


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## Boojie (Feb 23, 2021)

thank you so much for that, very helpful. I am really looking for a child friendly breed that doesnt shed too much, isn't too big and doesn't have the flat nose look like a french bulldog/boxer...what breed would you recommend...my son has a schoolfriend who has just had a little of cockapoos and is looking to give them away to a kind home not for any profit, does this seem more ethical? I do not want to promote unsafe, non animal friendly practices...the other breed we looked at was a miniature schnauzer...


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

Boojie said:


> thank you so much for that, very helpful. I am really looking for a child friendly breed that doesnt shed too much, isn't too big and doesn't have the flat nose look like a french bulldog/boxer...what breed would you recommend...my son has a schoolfriend who has just had a little of cockapoos and is looking to give them away to a kind home not for any profit, does this seem more ethical? I do not want to promote unsafe, non animal friendly practices...the other breed we looked at was a miniature schnauzer...


In the current climate of high puppy demands - I doubt you'll find anyone giving puppies away, sadly a lot of people are jumping on the hype of breeding anything purely for cash 

You'll get more replies by starting your own thread in dog chat - more people can offer their opinions on different suitable breeds for you


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## Boojie (Feb 23, 2021)

Ok. Thanks. Will try that.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Boojie said:


> thank you so much for that, very helpful. I am really looking for a child friendly breed that doesnt shed too much, isn't too big and doesn't have the flat nose look like a french bulldog/boxer...what breed would you recommend...my son has a schoolfriend who has just had a little of cockapoos and is looking to give them away to a kind home not for any profit, does this seem more ethical? I do not want to promote unsafe, non animal friendly practices...the other breed we looked at was a miniature schnauzer...


Again cockapoos are not a breed, they are a cross that may or may not shed like crazy & they can vary wildly in size so some can be almost as large as smaller labradors.

There are a lot of charlatans who've jumped on the breeding badwagon in the last year & it's really difficult, unless you know what you're looking for, to differentiate between a yarn spun by a backyard breeder to secure a buyer & a breeder doing it to better the dogs they breed & carry on good lines.

I'd be wary of anyone breeding puppies just to give them away, it certainly doesn't make them any more ethical than a breeder who sells pups for (for example) £1000 when they've spent a lot on working, showing or competing in something, doing all the health tests, finding & travelling to a suitable stud & then doing an exceptional job raising a litter properly.

By the time they've done all this these ethical breeders don't have much profit to speak of.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Daily Record: Four puppies die after SSPCA rescue mission from Glasgow Airbnb operating as puppy farm.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/four-puppies-die-after-sspca-23721147

More awful stories.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

And they keep coming

https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/puppy-farm-gang-couple-unmasked-20183230


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## TTouch (Apr 20, 2021)

The lockdown has helped BYB not only allowing them to do contactless deals but to also charge far more money, reality is if you are bored because of lockdown it is no reason to 'add a dog' to relieve your boredom and many descent breeders have simply stopped breeding as they don't want their pups going to homes to releive boredom or be a living toy for the kids as well as many of those descent breeders already have a list of people waiting for one of their pups as those people did the research to get a well bred pup from healthy breed lines.

If you want a cross then contact a local rescue, they have lots of poodle crosses many from bored lockdowners who 'couldn't cope' after a few weeks after they bough some over priced, badly BYB bred poodle cross and too many are having to be PTS simply as they do not have space for them


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

@TTouch
Not quite so easy as you make out
We have been looking for *over a year*

Bearing in mind we want a large/giant breed, around 18m -2yrs, not a fluffy cutesy poopy, teddy, puppy, you'd think we'd have our pick
Oh no
(we have to have a male because ginger witch won't entertain an adult bitch, although great with puppies)

IF I can get them past the fact that falcor isn't neutered, on vet advice, due to heart murmur (boy are they all prejudiced)

Our local RSPCA, the only RSPCA affiliate I'd consider- only one can go with dogs, he has elbow displasyia and arthritis, at 10m of age, so basically uninsurable for what I'd specifically want insurance for
Plus
For the last month theyve only have 8 dogs for rehoming, when they're usually operating a waiting list
I go on there every day

Dogs trust - two sites nearby, will not allow any large giant breed to go where small dogs are, even though the dogs have lived all their lives with cane corso or mastiff x, they make no concessions for individual circumstances, it's a blanket no they have a 5 m old mastiff (already neutered)who they've already declared unable to go with any dog
Given up with them

3 x Small local rescue - have a waiting list of people waiting for rehomeable dogs, not adding any people to it

Wood green (even though I swore not to go back there) only dog suitable was reserved whilst I was filling out the rehoming form, only have 8 dogs available, again normally overflowing and operating a waiting list of dogs to come in, they also run a from home adoption service, they have NONE on that list

Battersea - only 10 dogs, none suitable age or size, are restricting to closest people first, only going out of ' hour circle ' if no suitable closer dogs

Many other rescues say similar to Battersea, I'm further than an hour away, quoting covid restrictions

We even looked to a European adoption, only with full English backup
found several suitable dogs, even puppies, that we would've considered, then was put off by people here saying not to adopt from abroad, they're not what they seem, puppies are from puppy farms (I could get that here if I wanted to support a puppy farm) or stolen from loving homes to fill the covid boom in UK, older dogs are all but feral, fighty, food guarded etc (which I would expect from street dogs, but not sure, at my age, I want to take on) pounds/rescues in Europe are not what they seem and they're scammers wanting money in their pockets nothing else

Joined as many breed (and breed X) rescue pages,as we can,
Specifically those that rehome everything, and anything, lab sized and over

So
Please
Tell me @TTouch,
after a year,
and still looking,
having exhausted all rescue opportunities available, that I can think of
Just where are these rescue full of dogs? TBH, I'd even take a standard poodle X (yes standard poodles are on our list of suitable large/giant breeds)

Whilst I would never condone it, nor would I excuse it, as caveat emptor after all
I can understand and empathise, with those, that are stupid, and, blinkered enough, to turn to Scumtree, Unloved and BYBs


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## DaisyBluebell (Apr 14, 2017)

I just can't bring myself to read any of these awful stories, I just find it too distressing.
I could however deal out appropriate punishment to the perps if called upon.


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