# Met some 'Antis'



## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

I dont suppose this should be posted on dog chat because it's not about dogs really, more about peoples attitudes towards them.
I make absolutely no apologies for enjoying my sport, I love my dogs, I love training and working them in the field as those of you who follow my ramblings must be well aware of by now.
We were on our way home from a day out and my dear freind Alverio suggested calling for a swift libation to finish the day of nicely, he, another of the team and myself stopped at a quiet little pub that was on our way home and ordered drinks as you do in a pub.
As we weren't that tidy we decided to stay at the bar where a group of young, twenty something. lads were gathered. We began to chat about the day, who's dog worked well, who's wasn't on song, Which of the guns could shoot a bit and which were, frankly, rubbish. Just the usual trivia that beaters talk about when having an end of the day drink.
As we stood there I became aware of the fact that these young men next to us were having a bit of a go about what we'd been doing, Obviously they had overheard our conversation and were in some way offended by the fact that we'd been out for a days sport. Whilst they didn't actualy address themselves to us, it was apparent that we were meant to hear the comments they were making about hunting and shooting.
Well, I'm a patient man, but this really started to get up my nose and in the end I turned to them and suggested that they gave it a rest and stopped trying to cause some kind of confrontation. It wasn't going to work because nothing they could say would persuade me to give up something I loved doing.
There's always a 'Mouthy one in any group and he turned to me and said. And I quote. '' No pal, I may not be able to stop you but I can certainly stop your dog!''
Now my hackles are rising. '' Oh yes'' I replied ''And how do you propose to do that?'' ''Pepper spray. that stops them every time'' was his reply, At this moment I felt Alverios restraining hand grip my shoulder, he knew that to threaten my dogs in any way was a truly foolish thing to do and was liable to earn the one who made the threat swift and painful retribution.
'' I see'' I said.'' Tell me young man, you seem like a bright enough chap, probably got diplomas, GCEs and stuff I expect, but do you know what a suppository is ?''
He looked slightly puzzled. '' Of course I do. I'm not stupid.'' '' Good, I'm glad to hear that,'' I replied. '' Because trust me. if you ever go near one of my dogs with a pepper spray you'll be wearing it as one, now go away.''
They drank up and left, swiftly................. We took our time over our drinks.


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

So his logic was he'd protect some animals by harming some others? :confused1: What a well thought out and logical position - certainly can't see any flaws in that line of reasoning at all.


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

L/C said:


> So his logic was he'd protect some animals by harming some others? :confused1: What a well thought out and logical position - certainly can't see any flaws in that line of reasoning at all.


I agree, but sadly pepper sprays have been used quite often on pack hounds. I dont get it either.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

L/C said:


> So his logic was he'd protect some animals by harming some others? :confused1: What a well thought out and logical position - certainly can't see any flaws in that line of reasoning at all.


Here here! there are defintiely some flaws in their logic.


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

moonviolet said:


> Here here! there are defintiely some flaws in their logic.


To be honest they were just trying to 'Push Buttons'. The reality is they'd never get the opportunity to do something like that on a shoot, they'd have to get past the beaters first and that wouldn't be something to undertake lightly. No, they were just atempting to score points and wind us up.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

L/C said:


> So his logic was he'd protect some animals by harming some others? :confused1: What a well thought out and logical position - certainly can't see any flaws in that line of reasoning at all.


That reminds of the hunt saboteurs who used trip wire to trip up the horses. I could never see the logic behind that either; not the horse's fault, is it? Either you are in favour of protecting all animals or you are not, can't have it both ways.

I thought pepper spray was illegal unless used by the police.

I do like the suppository analogy, though.


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## lisaloo1 (Aug 8, 2011)

some people have a strange way of thinking, we all have our opinions but that doesn't mean to say they are right. I think all the press about fox hunting, (which I once saw on telly and I was devastated to see it), has made it look bad for all hunting people. But they are not all the same and I have learned that thanx to you. Its peoples ignorance about the whole hunting thing that makes them like that, same really with different dog breeds, ones bad their all bad, kind of thing. They really should keep their opinions to themselves especially as they have no idea what you do, I think iv'e rambled but hope it makes sense. Your reply to the pepper spray was a good one!!! lol


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Pete

Hope you don't mind me asking but is this an attitude you come across often? 

Just wondered really some people I find can be quite hypocritical...I obviously don't do anything simliar to you but both my dogs are raw fed and I have no issues feeding them stuff that looks like an animal, whole rabbits etc yet I find some people horrified by this because it 'looks' like the animal it was while they quite happily sit tucking into their bacon buttie (that no longer looks like an animal)

So they disapprove of what you do but would be happy to eat the meat if served to them in a restuarant type senario?


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> That reminds of the hunt saboteurs who used trip wire to trip up the horses. I could never see the logic behind that either; not the horse's fault, is it? Either you are in favour of protecting all animals or you are not, can't have it both ways.
> 
> I thought pepper spray was illegal unless used by the police.
> 
> I do like the suppository analogy, though.


So's heroin unless used by a doctor you can buy anything on line these days.
Theer's no logic to these radicals. i remember, years ago whilst on a visit to my wifes family, being asked how my pups training was progressing. When I replied all was coming along. my brother in laws wife, asked what I was training him for. ''agility?'' When I told her he was to be a gun dog she launched a torrent of invective at me which my dear wife made me ignore.
We later went out for a meal and the silly woman ordered duck...............Which I couldn't ignore.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I don't understand the logic of their argument, smacks of hypocrisy IMO, they probably went home & had some intensively reared pork chops for their tea


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

LexiLou2 said:


> Pete
> 
> Hope you don't mind me asking but is this an attitude you come across often?
> 
> ...


 I dont come across it that much, but my social circle are mainly shooting, fishing types anyway. I dont feed raw myself but I have no issues at all with it, the reality is, if you want to give a dog a truly natural diet then throw it a rabbit or similar. Re, dining out. have a look at a reply I gave to another member.


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

lisaloo1 said:


> some people have a strange way of thinking, we all have our opinions but that doesn't mean to say they are right. I think all the press about fox hunting, (which I once saw on telly and I was devastated to see it), has made it look bad for all hunting people. But they are not all the same and I have learned that thanx to you. Its peoples ignorance about the whole hunting thing that makes them like that, same really with different dog breeds, ones bad their all bad, kind of thing. They really should keep their opinions to themselves especially as they have no idea what you do, I think iv'e rambled but hope it makes sense. Your reply to the pepper spray was a good one!!! lol


Hi Lisaloo. thanks for taking the time to comment.
Of course I dont expect everyone to agree with how I lead my life but here's something for you to consider. On a properly managed shoot obviously birds get shot and end up on someones dinner plate, but because of the requirements of game birds, the habitat they need to thrive encourages all the other species to thrive. hedgerows are left which otherwise might be ploughed up to give an extra acre or so of land, stands of woodland are left , cover is allowed to grow and game crops are planted as feed for the birds,everything benefits, field mice, song birds rabbits, the whole of the local wildlife gains. Sure, as I said, birds get shot but how many chickens are gassed each week so the housewife can have Sunday Roast How many turkeys will die to indulge the nations need to have a turkey dinner in a few weeks??
When we sit down to Christmas dinner I'll know that at least the bird we're eating was given a good, if perhaps foreshortened life as a wild bird and not reared in a factory, never seeing the light of day.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

springerpete said:


> Hi Lisaloo. thanks for taking the time to comment.
> Of course I dont expect everyone to agree with how I lead my life but here's something for you to consider. On a properly managed shoot obviously birds get shot and end up on someones dinner plate, but because of the requirements of game birds, the habitat they need to thrive encourages all the other species to thrive. hedgerows are left which otherwise might be ploughed up to give an extra acre or so of land, stands of woodland are left , cover is allowed to grow and game crops are planted as feed for the birds,everything benefits, field mice, song birds rabbits, the whole of the local wildlife gains. Sure, as I said, birds get shot but how many chickens are gassed each week so the housewife can have Sunday Roast How many turkeys will die to indulge the nations need to have a turkey dinner in a few weeks??
> When we sit down to Christmas dinner I'll know that at least the bird we're eating was given a good, if perhaps foreshortened life as a wild bird and not reared in a factory, never seeing the light of day.


I'd like to like this lots.


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## lisaloo1 (Aug 8, 2011)

I totally understand what you are saying, I've never had a problem with the kind of hunting you do. like you said its controlled and beneficial, not cruel and at the end of the day the birds end up on a plate. Its not a waste by any means, and since I have been following your stories, the more i think wow that sounds a great thing to be involved in. :thumbup:


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## missnaomi (Jun 4, 2010)

I agree...what's better, eating a bird that was shot whilst it was living a sort of natural and happy life...or eating some eggs made by a poor dirty scrawny little chicken that's covered in it's own poo and can't move or turn around and is generally miserable...and that is where cheap eggs, and cheap products with eggs come in...and when it's finished laying eggs eating the poor manky chicken as well in some sort of processed product. Gross.

My dad was a butcher and sourced all his meat from farms within about 10 miles of his shop...so it was happy and didn't have far to travel. Since he died, it's been hard to find someone else who does the same - and "ethical" meat is hard to find.

Naomi


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

Preaching to the converted, here. I couldn't agree with you all, more.

If I was a bird I would FAR rather live as I should and be shot than kept in those truly foul, hideously cruel battery conditions that we use for animals today. There are not words bad enough for the way we behave towards some farmed animals. Muelising anyone??? Give me a natural life and a quick death any day.

Admire your guts Springerpete, and the quick reply... I think of those things, too. Only about three weeks later...........


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## Road_Hog (Dec 8, 2008)

springerpete said:


> I dont suppose this should be posted on dog chat because it's not about dogs really, more about peoples attitudes towards them.


So, your sport is shooting other animals for fun and you're surprised that some people resent you for this?

I live in ruralshire, where people like you abound and yes, I tell them exactly what I think of them. I'm not a lover of Lefty antis, but I can't stand people who shoot animals for fun. I'm also sickened that many people have liked your post.


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

Im a coward ..I admit it. 
I eat meat and I like it ..I feed meat to my dogs but unless some horrible disaster forced me I wouldnt ever go hunting for something myself.

I have issues with wasteful killing, hunting without reason, fur farming, whaling, shark fin soup ect.. and I hate battery farming. 

I think the least we can do is to acknowledge the sacrifice the animal has made for the food to be on our table and we should use that animal to its max and not be wasteful.

If done properly hunting is a natural pursuit and if the kill ends up on the table and not just as trophies to be discarded then I have no issue with it.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

sorry ...but using the death of an animal as the basis of your hobby is wrong in my book - be honest here - you don't kill birds for food - you kill because you enjoy watching your dogs pick up their dead bodies -(and sometimes not quite dead ones )- I know because our farmhouse is next to land used by the local shoot - quite honestly it sickens me - Pheasants are deliberately reared in pens to be released so that their death can provide entertainment for corporate businessmen - killing for food is one thing - killing as a hobby is just wrong .


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Bijou said:


> sorry ...but using the death of an animal as the basis of your hobby is wrong in my book - be honest here - you don't kill birds for food - you kill because you enjoy watching your dogs pick up their dead bodies -(and sometimes not quite dead ones )- I know because our farmhouse is next to land used by the local shoot - quite honestly it sickens me - Pheasants are deliberately reared in pens to be released so that their death can provide entertainment for corporate businessmen - killing for food is one thing - killing as a hobby is just wrong .


It is part of the food chain and not a hobby. It is a source of income and a source of employment. Nothing gets wasted. It helps the countryside and it helps the wildlife. All birds go to a game dealer and end up on the dinner table. most shoots give a brace to the people on the shoot who take them home to eat. 
There is a big diffference between your battery chicken, that you can buy at Tesco's for £2. 
A game bird has been reared in the wild, is totally organic and has a 40% chance of survival.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Wondered how long it would be before a thread like this got turned around now the shooting season is here. I've got a partridge to pluck and draw and a brace of phessies in the OH's car to do as well, best flavour meat going, much better than anything you can buy from the shops. 

Yes, *some* game birds are reared and there are good and bad ways about doing this, the people I know involved in gamekeeping do their utmost to ensure birds are kept healthy and happy, it's not in their interest to do otherwise. Yes, birds are encouraged to stay in an area with cover crops and food (except for grouse that is) but the still have a far better chance of making a get away than those chickens on the supermarket shelves. And the bonus is, as has been pointed out, it provides a vital form of income for the countryside, and it also ensures that large parts of the countryside are effectively maintained, providing habitat for all sorts of birds and creatures that have become endangered through the results of the european agricultural policies. Many gamekeepers are involved in pest control, which helps numbers of other birds and animals, and some are directly involved in helping secure the numbers of rare species on their land, such as barn owls, doormice, and the native game birds even, grey partridge. 

But we're all bad nasty people and should just buy our meat from the supermarkets like everyone else does  

Off to put the kettle on and grab the popcorn.


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## mamf (Jun 26, 2011)

The lads that said those things were hopefully just young. When I was a teenager I had a lot of lofty values that havent stood up to real world application and I hope everyone I ever spouted rubbish at could see I just wasn't experienced enough to see the tensions in anti hunting/ eating food.

Living in Norfolk and having a dear friend who is a farmer has helped me understand the situation a bit more as if he didnt actively encourage shooting of rabbits by local groups his pigs would have no farm grown food. He would then have to buy more crops reduce his profits and ultimately the next generation of pigs would suffer from that all the while being undercut by EU member states that dont have the same laws regarding welfare and can sell meat for much less. 

We couldnt all survive on fresh hunted game ( as a cooking enthusiast i wish i could source this kind of meat more) but in my opinion a good shot and a good dog is an ethical alternative to gassing, the abbatoir or natural predation. 

Just my opinion though!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Road_Hog said:


> So, your sport is shooting other animals for fun and you're surprised that some people resent you for this?
> 
> I live in ruralshire, where people like you abound and yes, I tell them exactly what I think of them. I'm not a lover of Lefty antis, but I can't stand people who shoot animals for fun. I'm also sickened that many people have liked your post.


I think the post was about the hypocrisy of the young men, threatening to harm the dog in order to preserve the birds. That is what is so wrong.

I can't help but agree with you though. I will never understand how anyone can get fun and enjoyment out of shooting an innocent animal, no matter what it is.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

dorrit said:


> Im a coward ..I admit it.
> I eat meat and I like it ..I feed meat to my dogs but unless some horrible disaster forced me I wouldnt ever go hunting for something myself.
> 
> I have issues with wasteful killing, hunting without reason, fur farming, whaling, shark fin soup ect.. and I hate battery farming.
> ...


Exactly, it is not as if game keepers are breeding rare white lions for these corporate people to shoot.. I think that is more disgraceful than shooting birds and rabbits.



Bijou said:


> sorry ...but using the death of an animal as the basis of your hobby is wrong in my book - be honest here - you don't kill birds for food - you kill because you enjoy watching your dogs pick up their dead bodies -(and sometimes not quite dead ones )- I know because our farmhouse is next to land used by the local shoot - quite honestly it sickens me - Pheasants are deliberately reared in pens to be released so that their death can provide entertainment for corporate businessmen - killing for food is one thing - killing as a hobby is just wrong .


As Grandad said - the birds end up on someones table (or in a dogs belly) so it isn't wasteful, however people do waste things.



Sleeping_Lion said:


> But we're all bad nasty people and should just buy our meat from the supermarkets like everyone else does
> 
> Off to put the kettle on and grab the popcorn.


Yes we should all go and buy supermarket meat that hasn't been killed! Can I share your popcorn?



mamf said:


> The lads that said those things were hopefully just young. When I was a teenager I had a lot of lofty values that havent stood up to real world application and I hope everyone I ever spouted rubbish at could see I just wasn't experienced enough to see the tensions in anti hunting/ eating food.
> 
> Living in Norfolk and having a dear friend who is a farmer has helped me understand the situation a bit more as if he didnt actively encourage shooting of rabbits by local groups his pigs would have no farm grown food. He would then have to buy more crops reduce his profits and ultimately the next generation of pigs would suffer from that all the while being undercut by EU member states that dont have the same laws regarding welfare and can sell meat for much less.
> 
> ...


I totally agree! Also a GOOD shot is kinder than a car and if the bird isn't quite dead the dog brings it back quick enough so it can be put out of it's misery - that sounds awful, but I have no other way of wording it..



newfiesmum said:


> I think the post was about the hypocrisy of the young men, threatening to harm the dog in order to preserve the birds. That is what is so wrong.
> 
> I can't help but agree with you though. I will never understand how anyone can get fun and enjoyment out of shooting an innocent animal, no matter what it is.


But Pete doesn't shoot the birds. His enjoyment is watching well trained dogs do what they were bred to do.

See, I used to be one of these people, as a friend calls it, living in a pink and fluffy world. Everything that harmed animal was horrendous and needed stopping (except fishing - but there is something else to that). But we're humans, we're the top of the food chain are we not; pheasants and rabbits are not native to our eco-system, therefore could and do ruin it (more rabbits on that one). Rabbits were introduced to Australia and pretty much ruined their eco-system. I don't disagree with shooting but it depends on the quarry; some animals need more management than others, like rabbits and birds - otherwise, there'd not be enough for everyone to eat, including us.

I use to go shooting on a regular basis - mind my quarry was a lot bigger and the species it comes from deserves it IMO 

(information from: Neil - UK Alien animals)


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

springerpete said:


> I dont suppose this should be posted on dog chat because it's not about dogs really, more about peoples attitudes towards them.
> I make absolutely no apologies for enjoying my sport, I love my dogs, I love training and working them in the field as those of you who follow my ramblings must be well aware of by now.
> We were on our way home from a day out and my dear freind Alverio suggested calling for a swift libation to finish the day of nicely, he, another of the team and myself stopped at a quiet little pub that was on our way home and ordered drinks as you do in a pub.
> As we weren't that tidy we decided to stay at the bar where a group of young, twenty something. lads were gathered. We began to chat about the day, who's dog worked well, who's wasn't on song, Which of the guns could shoot a bit and which were, frankly, rubbish. Just the usual trivia that beaters talk about when having an end of the day drink.
> ...


And they probably trapsed off to Macdonalds for a battery fed cow burger YUK.


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## skyblue (Sep 15, 2010)

one thing that hasn't been mentioned,and i'm sure pete will agree with me

not all of these birds get shot,some get away......now take the pheasant for example,these are thriving in our countryside


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Thats the thing, if I am honest I would rather eat wild, or as near as damn it wild animals, that have been shot in a fairly humane way, than eat battery farmed intensively reared meat..even people who sit up on their little pedestals (not aimed at anyone here) saying they think hunting is disgusting and barbaric, I only eat organic meat etc etc..well I hate to break it to you but your organic meat that you rave about..was killed!! It did not die of old age, it did not die out of sheer happiness at been organically raised, it did not decide that now would be a good time in its life to be eatenit was killed. Its that plain and simple.
And I would much rather an experienced man and his dog go out and shoot, than my inexperience dog catch something whilst doing his best to try and hunt, or for some inexperience hunter to set traps and leave the animals stuck and panicking for long periods of time, or for an animal to be hit by a car and left to suffer for hours on end.in fact to be completely honest I would much rather a rabbit be shot than it suffer the long painful and terrifying death that myxi brings, if youve every seen a myxi rabbit most of you would agree one clean shot is by far kinder. 
It is a sad matter of course that if we did not control the population of the birds and rabbits we would in no time be totally over run and I would much rather someone like Pete be out there doing it properly that some numpty who decides its fun to play with their food..


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Im a conservationist at heart so dont agree with swamping the countryside with millions of gamebirds. Predator control to protect them is ruthless and some gamekeepers even kill raptors! 

I dont have a problem with people hunting animals like rabbits for food, but will never agree with bloodsports.


,,,


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## Zoej82 (Apr 19, 2011)

I love your responses to him. 

As a vegetarian I don't agree with hunting or shooting BUT that's my choice and my decision. Its not up to me to tell other people what to do. I

Glad you gave him an ear full. 

X

Z


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Love your post Pete - your reply was a quick one, lol! And as for the woman ordering duck in the restaurant - I deffo wouldnt have ignored that PMSL!!

I have never actually been involved in the actual hunting/shooting scene but, living on the outskirts of the countryside and moorland I know how it works and heartily support the likes of Pete and others doing a job and working the dogs. My dogs and I have eaten roadkill many a time, lol!

I wish city nobs would stay out of it and keep their biased views to themselves!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> Im a conservationist at heart so dont agree with swamping the countryside with millions of gamebirds. Predator control to protect them is ruthless and some gamekeepers even kill raptors!
> 
> I dont have a problem with people hunting animals like rabbits for food, but will never agree with bloodsports.
> 
> ,,,


I think this view of gamekeepers is becoming a little outdated, although I absolutely agree, they have done, and some probably would do, there's a lot of work going on to actually find ways to allow raptors to live alongside shoots, including providing food sources for hen harriers up on grouse moors. There's an awful lot of positive things going on to help effectively manage populations of various species within shoots, and that can only be good for our countryside, but one or two bad eggs seem to be all it takes to tar an awful lot more people unfortunately 

I think the shooting community take a lot of flack, when charitable organisations like the RSPB *seem* whiter than white, and yet they do an awful lot of damage to some species by their own ineptitude at managing reserves. One of their own rare nesting pairs of hen harriers was predated on by a foreign species of raptor, that they allowed to live on one of their reserves. And there are a multitude of times when ground nesting birds are predated on in RSPB reserves, and I can think of two occasions when I know people had actually offered to go and provide pest control to help protect them, and yet the RSPB won't act because it doesn't want to be seen to be *killing* anything


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I think this view of gamekeepers is becoming a little outdated, although I absolutely agree, they have done, and some probably would do, there's a lot of work going on to actually find ways to allow raptors to live alongside shoots, including providing food sources for hen harriers up on grouse moors. There's an awful lot of positive things going on to help effectively manage populations of various species within shoots, and that can only be good for our countryside, but one or two bad eggs seem to be all it takes to tar an awful lot more people unfortunately
> 
> I think the shooting community take a lot of flack, when charitable organisations like the RSPB *seem* whiter than white, and yet they do an awful lot of damage to some species by their own ineptitude at managing reserves. One of their own rare nesting pairs of hen harriers was predated on by a foreign species of raptor, that they allowed to live on one of their reserves. And there are a multitude of times when ground nesting birds are predated on in RSPB, and I can think of two occasions when I know people had actually offered to go and provide pest control to help protect them, and yet the RSPB won't act because it doesn't want to be seen to be *killing* anything


some recent links on raptor killings and there are tons more, and i know not all landowners would allow their gamekeepers to do this, but it still does happen...all to often, I live near Lord Scarboroughs estate and they released some Buzzards a few years ago, theyre spreading around our area, its wonderful to see them establishing around here, so i do know there are gamekeepers who would never break the law to protect gamebirds.

Derbyshire's only Hen Harriers destroyed along with their clutch of 7 eggs. | Raptor Politics

Hen harriers and gamekeepers - 'damning evidence' soon to be published « Raptor Persecution Scotland

Gamekeeper Dean Barr fined for poisoning eagles on Skibo Estate with Carbofuran - The Daily Record

The RSPB: News: Gamekeeper guilty of bird of prey crime

Gamekeeper guilty of illegal cage trapping | News | Birdwatch Magazine
BBC NEWS | UK | Hen harriers 'Gamekeepers' enemy'


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Tis like the Anti's who used to follow horse hunts around spraying the horses in the eyes..... and calling themselves animal lovers..............


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> some recent links on raptor killings and there are tons more, and i know not all landowners would allow their gamekeepers to do this, but it still does happen...all to often, I live near Lord Scarboroughs estate and they released some Buzzards a few years ago, theyre spreading around our area, its wonderful to see them establishing around here.
> 
> Derbyshires only Hen Harriers destroyed along with their clutch of 7 eggs. | Raptor Politics
> 
> ...


I've probably already read these in the shooting magazines I get, and to be fair, as I said in my post, it certainly does happen, but there are a lot more people now pushing for better ways to manage populations of *all* species. I'll try and dig out the article a bit later, got to go and write some reports about bridges in a min, but it was a really well thought out piece about how it's possible to have hen harriers living side by side with grouse populations, as long as they are well managed. This, from a gamekeeper, who has a more modern view about things, and thankfully he's not alone.

There are always going to be those who don't change, and who go about things the wrong way, but whilst everyone always goes on about all the bad things, no-one ever seems to promote the good things done by those involved with hunting and shooting. And I think that's down to the basic perception that all who hunt and shoot are bad people because they kill things, and all involved with conservation charities like the RSPB are good people because they don't. The only difference I see is one in management, good management of a shoot, or reserve, results in everything flourishing in harmony, bad management doesn't, and that should be stamped out no matter where.


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2011)

i hate hunting...and dont see how anyone that does it can hold any type of moral high ground!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I'd like to know where our countryside would be now without the money poured into it from country sports. It was godsend when it was saving our woods and hedgerows from being devastated in the post war years, right up to the 80's when the rest of the country woke up to what was being lost and how many of our species were on the verge of extinction.
What I find amusing are these conservation bodies that are now doing what gamekeepers and sporting land owners have done for decades, and they need university educations to do it  
Rest assured that when the countryside is needed again for food production (and it will be needed) the money that goes in to country sports will keep small areas alive for our wildlife.
That's if it's allowed to exist


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> i hate hunting...and dont see how anyone that does it can hold any type of moral high ground!


Mm any one who eats meat can't hold the moral high ground about hunting either!


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> Mm any one who eats meat can't hold the moral high ground about hunting either!


this is always trotted out.....killing for fun....or sport as its called..is very different from killing to eat!


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> this is always trotted out.....killing for fun....or sport as its called..is very different from killing to eat!


I might be wrong but thought they eat them too, surely don't shoot the birds to just throw away


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> this is always trotted out.....killing for fun....or sport as its called..is very different from killing to eat!


What exactly do you think they do with what they shoot?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Eat it! 

I'll leave the moral high ground for those who buy meat from supermarkets, which has obviously led a much better life and been killed more humanely


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## Snippet (Apr 14, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> this is always trotted out.....killing for fun....or sport as its called..is very different from killing to eat!


They are killed to eat!! We get pheasants to eat after a shoot. Of course there are idiots that go out shooting for fun, but responsible people only do it to control the population AND to get something to eat. As has already been said in this thread, pheasants and rabbits are not native species, and it they aren't controled then there is less food for native species which will cause their populations to decile.

That's my way of looking at it anyway.


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2011)

Snippet said:


> They are killed to eat!! We get pheasants to eat after a shoot. Of course there are idiots that go out shooting for fun, but responsible people only do it to control the population AND to get something to eat. As has already been said in this thread, pheasants and rabbits are not native species, and it they aren't controled then there is less food for native species which will cause their populations to decile.
> 
> That's my way of looking at it anyway.


ive always said..got nothing against those who hunt to eat!!!but i wouldnt call that sport.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

DoodlesRule said:


> Mm any one who eats meat can't hold the moral high ground about hunting either!


Agree.

Anyone who eats meat and is disturbed by the way the animals are dispatched (suppose that meat comes from a meat tree or is grown in the ground), is a vegetarian yet own carnivores as pets and folk who don't understand just how shooting affects the local economy and environment in the areas that run shoots are all hypocrits of the highest order.

Many farmers now allow syndicates to shoot on their land to provide extra income or they face going under due to the demand WE put on the markets for cheaper food. The countryside doesn't look after itself and looks the way it does due to farming. Without them it would be a mess.

Shoots actually protect land from construction, sympathetically raise game alongside wildlife and new and innovative ways of raising birds is having even more benefit to the countryside.

You don't agree with fishing? How's your river smelling these days? Chances are it is cleaner today than it has ever been in your life due to the demands, hardwork and care fishermen and the associations they are affiliated with have done to their local rivers. This has been done to the extent that otters have returned to areas they were erradicated from due to pollution and low fish stocks. Water voles are now protected due to the survey's and observations fishermen carried out along with the general practice of marking active mink areas for agencies to clear or doing the dirty themselves.
I used to walk along my local river (Aire) and see nothing but old bikes, feed sacks, rags, plastic bags, human produce and all manner of horrible things floating passed without any sign of wildlife. I now fly fish the local stretch and can find myself stood amongst 5 or 6 kingfishers diving for the vast amounts of parr int eh shallows, catch large numbers of healthy brown trout, see otter prints on the banks and even grayling have made a come back which nobody ever thought they would.

When people feel passionately about doing something they want to get the best out of it and when that is involved in a natural surrounding they want to make sure they actually benefit the local landscape, species and communities.

If you think meat grows on trees, pet food contains Tofu and the countryside looks beautiful naturally then think again.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I've probably already read these in the shooting magazines I get, and to be fair, as I said in my post, it certainly does happen, but there are a lot more people now pushing for better ways to manage populations of *all* species. I'll try and dig out the article a bit later, got to go and write some reports about bridges in a min, but it was a really well thought out piece about how it's possible to have hen harriers living side by side with grouse populations, as long as they are well managed. This, from a gamekeeper, who has a more modern view about things, and thankfully he's not alone.
> 
> There are always going to be those who don't change, and who go about things the wrong way, but whilst everyone always goes on about all the bad things, no-one ever seems to promote the good things done by those involved with hunting and shooting. And I think that's down to the basic perception that all who hunt and shoot are bad people because they kill things, and all involved with conservation charities like the RSPB are good people because they don't. The only difference I see is one in management, good management of a shoot, or reserve, results in everything flourishing in harmony, bad management doesn't, and that should be stamped out no matter where.


I'd like to think attitudes are changing and gamekeepers are looking at the bigger picture, i'll never agree with releasing all those birds into the countryside but if i thought the landowners could be a little more sympathetic towards are predators then that would be a huge step forward imo.

i'd love to have a read at that article when youve got the time Jo xx



JennyClifford said:


> I'd like to know where our countryside would be now without the money poured into it from country sports. It was godsend when it was saving our woods and hedgerows from being devastated in the post war years, right up to the 80's when the rest of the country woke up to what was being lost and how many of our species were on the verge of extinction.
> What I find amusing are these conservation bodies that are now doing what gamekeepers and sporting land owners have done for decades, and they need university educations to do it
> Rest assured that when the countryside is needed again for food production (and it will be needed) the money that goes in to country sports will keep small areas alive for our wildlife.
> That's if it's allowed to exist


the decline and near extinction in some cases, of the raptors was largely due to ruthless predator controls by gamekeepers. Conservationists out in the field dont cull animals in an unstructured and individualistic way like gamekeepers do, conservationsists study the whole ecology because its all about keeping the 'balance of nature .

And i dont think you need worry about country 'sports' like gamebird shoots ending, most people dont seem to have a problem with this the way they do the banned blood 'sports', god forbid they legalise those again!

,..


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

i dont eat meat by the way


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

How is it controlling the population when birds are deliberately bred for the shoot ? - - be honest if you're breeding Pheasants soley for food then then why would you release them from their pens - well I'll tell you why - it's because it's such 'fun' to blast them out of the sky !! 

I find it interesting that killing animals for entertainment is somehow acceptable when it's done in the countryside - but inner city 'blood sports' ( dog fighting ) is so roundly condemned - is the mind set not the same ?- after all both parties earn money from it and both are 'traditional' pastimes using dogs that are bred specifically for the 'sport '


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

A couple of articles for interest, apols as they haven't scanned brilliantly at the edges, there's one from the Countryman's Weekly, and a couple from The Field, plese be warned that the last one is about releasing urban foxes into rural areas, and does show photographs of foxes shot on permissions, ie people asked to come in and control numbers by shooting.










Hen Harrier Article:




























*warning, photos of shot foxes below*

Release of urban foxes article:


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

The release of foxes gets me so angry. Rural foxes are very wary of humans, and if anyone cares about the fox, they'd want them to stay that way.

I have chickens wandering around my garden because I live in the village - the foxes won't come this close to human habitation unless they are absolutely desperate. Urban foxes don't have the same fear, so will cause much more damage and therefore are more likely to be trapped or shot.

The sort of plonker who releases urban foxes that have been handled by humans into the countryside is causing more foxes to be killed (as well as causing the deaths of all the free-range chickens the fox will nab before it's caught). Don't sound like animal lovers to me.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> A couple of articles for interest, apols as they haven't scanned brilliantly at the edges, there's one from the Countryman's Weekly, and a couple from The Field, plese be warned that the last one is about releasing urban foxes into rural areas, and does show photographs of foxes shot on permissions, ie people asked to come in and control numbers by shooting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 he does seem genuinly concerned for the plight of the Hen Harriers, his views on how gamekeepers might learn to allow Hen Harriers to live on the grouse moors are very interesting i really do hope a solution is found soon before its too late tho, but how sad that these spectacular birds are now on the brink due to persecution.

and im no fan of the RSPB, i think theyre a pretty weak minded organisation tbh, and as for releasing urban foxes into the countryside like that..well its criminal, poor foxes.

thanks a lot for the articles xxx


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> he does seem genuinly concerned for the plight of the Hen Harriers, his views on how gamekeepers might learn to allow Hen Harriers to live on the grouse moors are very interesting i really do hope a solution is found soon before its too late tho, but how sad that these spectacular birds are now on the brink due to persecution.
> 
> and im no fan of the RSPB, i think theyre a pretty weak minded organisation tbh, and as for releasing urban foxes into the countryside like that..well its criminal, poor foxes.
> 
> thanks a lot for the articles xxx


The nice thing is, this is not a one off, there are lots more folk like him that are more concerned that the countryside is well managed overall, and don't just treat the animals and birds that don't bring in revenue with contempt and try to eradicate them. It's just that the positives seem to get left behind, with a wave of anything negative people can find about hunting and shooting. Right, must be my backside in gear and get the girls out, then I've got to get to the butchers for some chicken for the girls, which, I might add, is from free range chicken


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Bijou said:


> How is it controlling the population when birds are deliberately bred for the shoot ? - - be honest if you're breeding Pheasants soley for food then then why would you release them from their pens - well I'll tell you why - it's because it's such 'fun' to blast them out of the sky !!
> 
> I find it interesting that killing animals for entertainment is somehow acceptable when it's done in the countryside - but inner city 'blood sports' ( dog fighting ) is so roundly condemned - is the mind set not the same ?- after all both parties earn money from it and both are 'traditional' pastimes using dogs that are bred specifically for the 'sport '


Given they are bred for the shoot but if you look at figures of birds raised and put them against the figures of birds shot from the surrounding shoots you will find that the raised birds will always outway the shot birds. I doubt that every shoot gets a 80% return on stock reared. This means that the rest are either taken by predators, died of natural causes, get poached, fall victim to roads or simply are never seen again as they escape. It would be naive to assume that there isn't a wild population fo introduced game birds sp in a way it is population control in that there are birds raised to keep the population at a rerquired level to provide the bag numbers for the demanding guns and it will control the potential wild population numbers too.

To compare the dogs bred for fighting with the rearing of game birds for shooting is ridiculous.

The birds are kept in confined poens for the first few months with everything they need - protection, food, water, shelter and freedom to roam around in their pens. After that they are released into, essentially, the wild to roam and wander, scrat and scrape, mate, flock and be like any other natural bird. The surrounding fields are planted with crops to encourage them to stay within a certain area and to sustain them through the harsher months.

The dogs are kept in confinement, subjected to starvation, beatings, provocation and cruelty for a very long time before being led into the ring.

Which would you rather be given the choice? A pheasant chick or a pup destined for fighing?


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Bijou said:


> How is it controlling the population when birds are deliberately bred for the shoot ? - - be honest if you're breeding Pheasants soley for food then then why would you release them from their pens - well I'll tell you why - it's because it's such 'fun' to blast them out of the sky !!
> 
> I find it interesting that killing animals for entertainment is somehow acceptable when it's done in the countryside - but inner city 'blood sports' ( dog fighting ) is so roundly condemned - is the mind set not the same ?- after all both parties earn money from it and both are 'traditional' pastimes using dogs that are bred specifically for the 'sport '





hutch6 said:


> Given they are bred for the shoot but if you look at figures of birds raised and put them against the figures of birds shot from the surrounding shoots you will find that the raised birds will always outway the shot birds. I doubt that every shoot gets a 80% return on stock reared. This means that the rest are either taken by predators, died of natural causes, get poached, fall victim to roads or simply are never seen again as they escape. It would be naive to assume that there isn't a wild population fo introduced game birds sp in a way it is population control in that there are birds raised to keep the population at a rerquired level to provide the bag numbers for the demanding guns and it will control the potential wild population numbers too.
> 
> To compare the dogs bred for fighting with the rearing of game birds for shooting is ridiculous.
> 
> ...


I was just about to reply but couldn't think how to reply.. good post


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The nice thing is, this is not a one off, there are lots more folk like him that are more concerned that the countryside is well managed overall, and don't just treat the animals and birds that don't bring in revenue with contempt and try to eradicate them. It's just that the positives seem to get left behind, with a wave of anything negative people can find about hunting and shooting. Right, must be my backside in gear and get the girls out, then I've got to get to the butchers for some chicken for the girls, which, I might add, is from free range chicken


im really glad to hear it, we do have a good friend who shoots and one who ferrets, they too love the countryside i know that, tho neither like foxes and one hates herons and sparrowhawks, and although we'll never agree on blood sports, theres just too many aspects which i find distasteful...we're still good friends



hutch6 said:


> Given they are bred for the shoot but if you look at figures of birds raised and put them against the figures of birds shot from the surrounding shoots you will find that the raised birds will always outway the shot birds. I doubt that every shoot gets a 80% return on stock reared. This means that the rest are either taken by predators, died of natural causes, get poached, fall victim to roads or simply are never seen again as they escape. It would be naive to assume that there isn't a wild population fo introduced game birds sp in a way it is population control in that there are birds raised to keep the population at a rerquired level to provide the bag numbers for the demanding guns and it will control the potential wild population numbers too.
> 
> To compare the dogs bred for fighting with the rearing of game birds for shooting is ridiculous.
> 
> ...


not getting into the this but just wanted to say the majority of breeding stock are actually kept in battery conditions, millions of them, they are sometimes de-beaked or more often have bits fitted or spectacles to stop them pecking each other...its a really cruel practice.

http://www.fawc.org.uk/pdf/farmed-gamebirds.pdf

,


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> this is always trotted out.....killing for fun....or sport as its called..is very different from killing to eat!


Killing just to make money is ok then, all those battery hens are far better off than pheasants?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> the decline and near extinction in some cases, of the raptors was largely due to ruthless predator controls by gamekeepers. Conservationists out in the field dont cull animals in an unstructured and individualistic way like gamekeepers do, *conservationsists study the whole ecology because its all about keeping the 'balance of nature .*
> 
> And i dont think you need worry about country 'sports' like gamebird shoots ending, most people dont seem to have a problem with this the way they do the banned blood 'sports', god forbid they legalise those again!
> 
> ,..


I'm sorry but I have to disagree with this, the "conservationists" that I have come across, the majority anyway are more interested in climbing the career ladder than anything to do with the countryside.
Maybe I have met the bad ones, much like the bad gamekeepers to which you are referring, but that is my individual experience, even to the point where an estate has become almost devoid of wildlife because it has been taken over by one of those huge bodies that care nothing if it doesn't fit with generating money 
This seems to be the problem all round, whether it be large sporting estates or huge "conservation" bodies, seems to me that they forget the land.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

JennyClifford said:


> I'm sorry but I have to disagree with this, the "conservationists" that I have come across, the majority anyway are more interested in climbing the career ladder than anything to do with the countryside.
> Maybe I have met the bad ones, much like the bad gamekeepers to which you are referring, but that is my individual experience, even to the point where an estate has become almost devoid of wildlife because it has been taken over by one of those huge bodies that care nothing if it doesn't fit with generating money
> This seems to be the problem all round, whether it be large sporting estates or huge "conservation" bodies, seems to me that they forget the land.


they arnt true conservationists then, the ones i support certainly arnt like that, theyre passionate about preserving wildlife and its habitat, its a uphill struggle though with all the manmade pressures they are battling against.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> they arnt true conservationists then, the ones i support certainly arnt like that, theyre passionate about preserving wildlife and its habitat, its a uphill struggle though with all the manmade pressures they are battling against.


Bit like those that aren't true sportsmen


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

JennyClifford said:


> Bit like those that aren't true sportsmen


i personally dont really see blood sports as a sport tbh,...and i cant agree that releasing millions of birds on the countryside then protecting them is beneficial to native wildlife, i dont like the actual shooting of them because they seem semi-tame to me..so not very 'sporting', nor can i agree with the intensive battery farming methods breeding stock are subjected to, but i accept that there will be some gamekeepers and landowners who care far more about native wildlife than others

.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> im really glad to hear it, we do have a good friend who shoots and one who ferrets, they too love the countryside i know that, tho neither like foxes and one hates herons and sparrowhawks, and although we'll never agree on blood sports, theres just too many aspects which i find distasteful...we're still good friends
> 
> not getting into the this but just wanted to say the majority of breeding stock are actually kept in battery conditions, millions of them, they are sometimes de-beaked or more often have bits fitted or spectacles to stop them pecking each other...its a really cruel practice.
> 
> ...


That FAWC makes for interesting reading until you get to about the 5th page and then it starts to lose itself in it's own point.

It goes on about the containment and stockmanship of the birds stating that setups vary across hatcheries with some providing outdoor enclosures, some sheltered with outdoor access and some fully enclosed. Sounds like the same situations as chickens.

In the report (which states every other line that it doesn't have a great deal of evidence to back this up to provide a broad picture across all processing establishments) it explains that Game Birds should be considered as "protected status animals" meaning they are, at some point in their life under human control. They call for correct controlls in registration to impliment biosecurity with imported birds which would mena each rearing establishment would need to ring each bird, log it, complete trasnsfer of ownership and paper work to the shoot the birds are going to and this would mean masses of bureaucracy. More importantly though if you hit a pheasant on the road you are legally obliged to inform the registered owner of that animal and can even call into question their responsibility under the "Livestock" regulations that they have failed to keep that animal protected and away from the roads. This would mean hundreds of thousands of hectares would need to be fenced in both perimeter and overhead - think the North York Moors as just one area. This would then restrict public access and could not possibly be managed. This means that the shoots would have to call it a day and close down meaning that the uK as a whole would lose £Millions every single year and the money that local communities rely on would dry up putting people out fo work and adding a slight amount to the current economical issues.

The report mentions game birds being kept in conditions when contained for breeding where one cock bird will be housed in outdoor pens 3mX3m with 7 - 10 hens. Each pheasant weighs an average of 1.3Kg so that is 14.3Kg/msq, so if you put that against DEFRA and EU directive guidelines for chickens which are 19 chickens or 39kg/msq then their housing is positively vast and have outdoor access.

"Large paddocks and other enclosed areas were used to overwinter pheseants chosen for the next season's breeding stock. These birds were brailled to prevent escape from these open ares".
So by "Brailled" they mean a small piece of elastic placed over the wing in a figure of eight to restrict the extension of the wing and thus prevent flying. Well at least their primary flight feathers aren't clipped like most domesticated foul are hey and unlike most human reared animals they have access to an "outdoor" area over winter. Better than cows.

A flying pheasant is worth £25-40. A dea done is worth 50p so it makes sense to produce healthy stock that can fly and thus keep the paying guns happy.
A chicken that reaches the eating/laying weight in the required time is worth about 50p so it makes sens to prevent it from being able to move around too much so it grows quicker. I don't agree with that at all having rescued battery hens for years now to keep my parent's garden slug free.

Essentially that report provides no conclusive details of common neglegence, cruelty or squalid conditions from the little evidence it had actually managed to collate in the process.
The only conclusion you can derive from the report is that game birds are better looked after, have more of a life, better conditions and are even fed after they are free to leave than any other farm animal and piss all over the conditions the general chicken is kept in. All they are asking for essentially is paperwork.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> i personally dont really see blood sports as a sport tbh,...and i cant agree that releasing millions of birds on the countryside then protecting them is beneficial to native wildlife, i dont like the actual shooting of them because they seem semi-tame to me..so not very 'sporting', nor can i agree with the intensive battery farming methods breeding stock are subjected to, but i accept that there will be some gamekeepers and landowners who care far more about native wildlife than others
> 
> .


Just about to nip to the butchers, but honestly, they're not at all tame in any way, they aren't humanised and they aren't handled regularly. They are as frightened as any other wild bird of humans, the only slight difference is that I would put them at the bottom of the ladder as far as intelligence goes, they're certainly not the brightest of birds


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> i personally dont really see blood sports as a sport tbh,...and i cant agree that releasing millions of birds on the countryside then protecting them is beneficial to native wildlife, i dont like the actual shooting of them because they seem semi-tame to me..so not very 'sporting', nor can i agree with the intensive battery farming methods breeding stock are subjected to, but i accept that there will be some gamekeepers and landowners who care far more about native wildlife than others
> 
> .


But they don't protect them Noush! They are free to come and go as they please. Sure they are provided for to try and keep them local to the shoots but there is nothing in place to keep them where they are which is why you see so many killed on roads. 
A pheasant that is free to roam provides a meal for so many of our native predators it is a wonder they make it to the end of a shotgun in the first place.

You mention that you are a vegetarian and you seem to be against intensive methods of raising livestock so can I ask you a squestuion, it may lead completely off subject but never mind, do you only eat vegetables that are in season? That woul dmean that salad veg is off the menu now as the brasicas, spuds and roots that have been stored well come into play.
If you eat out of season veg then where do you think that comes from? Have a look at the Costa del Polythene and the methods used there. Not very economical, environmental or ultimately healthy really.

I used to know where the meat I put on the table came from when I lived in the country because I put it there myself (excpept beef - EU states I can't kill a cow) either necking, slaughtering, bartering, trapping or catching it. I don't think it has ever tasted the same since.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

hutch6 said:


> That FAWC makes for interesting reading until you get to about the 5th page and then it starts to lose itself in it's own point.
> 
> It goes on about the containment and stockmanship of the birds stating that setups vary across hatcheries with some providing outdoor enclosures, some sheltered with outdoor access and some fully enclosed. Sounds like the same situations as chickens.
> 
> ...


there have been undercover investigations into gamebird rearing and i there was to be a vote last year by MP's hopefully to ban the use battery cages, i cant seem to find the outcome though .... the bottom link shows that even BASC want them banned, i dont agree with any animal being kept in factory farmed/battery conditions and i would imagine its even more stressful for semi-wild creatures like these gamebirds.

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/images/pdf/battery08.pdf

Animal Aid: Assault & Battery - where factory farming meets bloodsports

DEFRA kicks off a cage fight | Shooting times


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> there have been undercover investigations into gamebird rearing and i there was to be a vote last year by MP's hopefully to ban the use battery cages, i cant seem to find the outcome though .... the bottom link shows that even BASC want them banned, i dont agree with any animal being kept in factory farmed/battery conditions and i would imagine its even more stressful for semi-wild creatures like these gamebirds.


Chickens, sheep, cows and pretty much any domestic animal os semi-wild. Ever tried to catch a chicken? Not even Rocky could manage it for a while he had to go in the ring with Appollo Creed before he caught one and don't even get me started on sheep whoes only intention in life is to die - if they think they can end it quicker they will give it a go!, unless you have an empty bag to rattle and then they come running.

I don't agree with battery cages or intensive farming full stop but ever shoot I have been involved with and every forest I have walked through that have brooding pens have all been huge with more than adequate space for the birds.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

hutch6 said:


> But they don't protect them Noush! They are free to come and go as they please. Sure they are provided for to try and keep them local to the shoots but there is nothing in place to keep them where they are which is why you see so many killed on roads.
> A pheasant that is free to roam provides a meal for so many of our native predators it is a wonder they make it to the end of a shotgun in the first place.
> 
> You mention that you are a vegetarian and you seem to be against intensive methods of raising livestock so can I ask you a squestuion, it may lead completely off subject but never mind, do you only eat vegetables that are in season? That woul dmean that salad veg is off the menu now as the brasicas, spuds and roots that have been stored well come into play.
> ...


They do round here Hutch they trap mustelids, kill every fox in the vicinity...lord knows what else they kill...my oh's mate is actually one of Lord Scarboroughs gamekeepers...hes always winding me up about what critters hes murdered:scared: and look at all those raptor links ive put up, killed by gamekeepers protecting the birds....its flippin criminal.

yes im a vege and no i never eat anything out of season:thumbup:..im such a liar..... seriously im very lucky ive got friends and family with allotments so much of my veg i get from them, also my eggs, but i do buy stuff thats probably been imported from lord knows where, but i try and do the best i can to shop as ethically as i can....and thats for everything, im a nightmare in the supermarket examining all the ingredients to make sure theres no palm oil in it, or gelatin or whatever lol


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> there have been undercover investigations into gamebird rearing and i there was to be a vote last year by MP's hopefully to ban the use battery cages, i cant seem to find the outcome though .... the bottom link shows that even BASC want them banned, i dont agree with any animal being kept in factory farmed/battery conditions and i would imagine its even more stressful for semi-wild creatures like these gamebirds.
> 
> http://www.animalaid.org.uk/images/pdf/battery08.pdf
> 
> ...


I have lived and worked for 50 years in the countryside, 35 of them with connections to shooting and game keeping. Not once have I seen a battery cage for Pheasants. 
These are the people who give others a bad name, you know, the ones that only want to make money.
Find yourself a couple of places that do things this way and publicize it everywhere and it looks as if it's the norm, when in actual fact, most game keepers wouldn't touch those birds


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

hutch6 said:


> Chickens, sheep, cows and pretty much any domestic animal os semi-wild. Ever tried to catch a chicken? Not even Rocky could manage it for a while he had to go in the ring with Appollo Creed before he caught one and don't even get me started on sheep whoes only intention in life is to die - if they think they can end it quicker they will give it a go!, unless you have an empty bag to rattle and then they come running.
> 
> I don't agree with battery cages or intensive farming full stop but ever shoot I have been involved with and every forest I have walked through that have brooding pens have all been huge with more than adequate space for the birds.


lol no cant say as i have, the chickens im familiar with are a bit like pets...very tame, so i actually dont think they'd object to being handled tbh lol.... (Rocky needs a few tips off my huskies! they could catch even the wildest chicken, and they have caught (and eaten) gamebirds and thats when theyve been in harness)

ohh they'd kill those sheep aswell lol

and i understand that not all gamebirds are bred in bad conditions but i believe the majority are.....i do hope im wrong.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> They do round here Hutch they trap mustelids, kill every fox in the vicinity...lord knows what else they kill...my oh's mate is actually one of Lord Scarboroughs gamekeepers...hes always winding me up about what critters hes murdered:scared: and look at all those raptor links ive put up, killed by gamekeepers protecting the birds....its flippin criminal.
> 
> yes im a vege and no i never eat anything out of season:thumbup:..im such a liar..... seriously im very lucky ive got friends and family with allotments so much of my veg i get from them, also my eggs, but i do buy stuff thats probably been imported from lord knows where, but i try and do the best i can to shop as ethically as i can....and thats for everything, im a nightmare in the supermarket examining all the ingredients to make sure theres no palm oil in it, or gelatin or whatever lol


I hear a call for Danny. Danny The Champion of the World!!!!

I can't comment on how Lord Scarborough runs his garden but if he wants it a pristine crown green shooting area then it will be just a desert with birds that won't last the season due to the lack of food.

Ooooooh you little fibber you!! 

I am a bit like you, try to avoid supermarkets where possible but really can't be bothered with the hassle of an allotment so I grow stuff in tubs instead.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

This is how I've seen them bred
they are then released back onto the land.
laying pens
BackYardChickens Forum / Pheasant hen w/babies **flight pen update pic's**

brooder houses for small vulnerable chicks
Note the large runs.
Pukka Pens
Why would they make these if they weren't used extensively?

Then the release pens which they can roam from as soon as they are able'
TCS Woodlands - Wildlife Management Services


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

JennyClifford said:


> I have lived and worked for 50 years in the countryside, 35 of them with connections to shooting and game keeping. Not once have I seen a battery cage for Pheasants.
> These are the people who give others a bad name, you know, the ones that only want to make money.
> Find yourself a couple of places that do things this way and publicize it everywhere and it looks as if it's the norm, when in actual fact, most game keepers wouldn't touch those birds


a lot of landowners dont breed themselves they buy their birds in as poults, millions are battery farmed on the continent and shipped over here i believe.



hutch6 said:


> I hear a call for Danny. Danny The Champion of the World!!!!
> 
> I can't comment on how Lord Scarborough runs his garden but if he wants it a pristine crown green shooting area then it will be just a desert with birds that won't last the season due to the lack of food.
> 
> ...


haha...but im a lady:arf:

and i only tell little white ones lol


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

You cant expect everyone to approve of what you call 'sport'!


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## DAVIDnCASS (Jul 19, 2011)

Road_Hog said:


> So, your sport is shooting other animals for fun and you're surprised that some people resent you for this?
> 
> I live in ruralshire, where people like you abound and yes, I tell them exactly what I think of them. I'm not a lover of Lefty antis, but I can't stand people who shoot animals for fun. I'm also sickened that many people have liked your post.


This is what used to p!ss me off, the 'shooting animals for fun, you sick b4st4rd' people. What gets shot gets eaten, we are not going round killing everything we see for fun, we are hunting in season game. I don't do turkey for xmas dinner, ever! We had duck last year, wild Canadian goose this year and none of your processed cr4p either. Fresh from the field!

I love reading your posts Pete, I miss the hunt every year, since I smashed up my back I've been able to participate, but luckily I'm still in the right circles to get the odd duck or goose thrown my way!:thumbup:


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> lol no cant say as i have, the chickens im familiar with are a bit like pets...very tame, so i actually dont think they'd object to being handled tbh lol.... (Rocky needs a few tips off my huskies! they could catch even the wildest chicken, and they have caught (and eaten) gamebirds and thats when theyve been in harness)
> 
> ohh they'd kill those sheep aswell lol
> 
> and i understand that not all gamebirds are bred in bad conditions but i believe the majority are.....i do hope im wrong.


Your wrong


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

Road_Hog said:


> So, your sport is shooting other animals for fun and you're surprised that some people resent you for this?
> 
> I live in ruralshire, where people like you abound and yes, I tell them exactly what I think of them. I'm not a lover of Lefty antis, but I can't stand people who shoot animals for fun. I'm also sickened that many people have liked your post.


I take it you're a vegetarian then ?? You're entitled to your opinion of course as I'm entitled to do what mankind has been doing since he first learnt to stand on two legs.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

springerpete said:


> I take it you're a vegetarian then ?? You're entitled to your opinion of course as I'm entitled to do what mankind has been doing since he first learnt to stand on two legs.


I'd have to disagree with you in the nicest possible way Pete, surely standing up wasn't when man started hunting, I'm sure they did it prior to being able to stand as well


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> You cant expect everyone to approve of what you call 'sport'!


I dont. But then I dont approve of factory farming but I wouldn't dream of having a go at every housewife who buys a battery bred chicken from Tescos. But then I suppose if you dont have to see how they're reared ignorence is bliss.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> You cant expect everyone to approve of what you call 'sport'!


We're not trying to get approval, the beaters and pickers aren't doing it for sport - it is a way of life and a way to earn money. Their dogs do what they were bred to do - hunt, retrieve and flush (not in that order though) just like Yorkies were bred to kill rats and Collies to herd livestock. So therefore saying that people like Pete and those who do have gundogs - who do gundog stuff with them *all* see it as sport is wrong. I see training my dog as a gundog as a way for me to gain more focus and control over him; doing what he was bred to do and you know what - he enjoys it, more than obedience and more than any agility or flyball - because he was bred to do it.

The whole point of people arguing against that it is bad is because it isn't any worse than keeping cows and then stunning them and slitting their throats/having a bolt gun through their brain. Pete doesn't see it as sport (or at least I didn't get that jist) it's the corporates or Guns that see it that way.. And all the animals shot end up on the table. Of course I am not in total agreement with hunting, but I do think that if numbers are too high for management and the animals are causing a nuisance then there needs to be a cull.

But then we all have our opinions and our thoughts, the least some of us can do is try to reach out for a little understanding and open mindedness. We're not asking anyone to convert - but to look at the facts and think about it from there..


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Just got in from spending the day, feeding the birds. So I'm catching up on this thread. I haven't been in a pen all day. In fact took three partridge pens down. 
The feeders are in the woods or the game crop or adjacent to hedgerows. I'm seeing a lot of last years birds around. Also saw 2 buzzards and 1 sparrow hawk, 100's of pigeons, rooks, magpies, crows and other numerous songbirds, saw 1 fox, 3 rabbits, and a field mouse in one of the feeders. So major destruction of countryside there then. sloe berries are out, so is the sweet chesnut, loads of funghi around to. 
So farming a crop, be it wheat, corn, potatoes, beef, chickens, lamb or mutton or god forbid gamebirds is barbaric is it. 
I can tell by some of the comments on here that some people need to get real and check up on the supermarket induced methods of farming that farmers are under pressure to go into, to be able to earn a living. for chrissakes, this is a way of life to some people. who don't earn much as it is. Try competing with produce imported from other country's. 
For example NZ lab imported @ £15 each. Does anyone of the 1000's of consumers, think about how that is reared. Or a chicken @ £2. do you think a farmer in this country can produce a lamb for £15 or a chicken for £2. The reality is, it costs a lot more than that. So before we go throwing stones and farmers, please start throwing them in the supermarkets direction first. Do you know how many farmers gave up producing milk last year because of the pressure on the price of your milk. Probably not. But 5p a pint extra would have saved a lot of them. 
I'm bowing out of this thread before I get really angry.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> You cant expect everyone to approve of what you call 'sport'!


I'd rather eat a pheasant or duck that had a life outdoors and been given a 'sporting' chance than a chicken that has been breed to be so breast heavy and grow so fast it's legs can't support it and it spends most of it's time sitting on it's hocks getting urine burns bred to be that way, so people can have chicken 2 for £5 in tesco.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> This is what used to p!ss me off, the 'shooting animals for fun, you sick b4st4rd' people. What gets shot gets eaten,


 right ...so pheasants are raised and killed primarily for food then .... ??? ....if that's true why go to all the trouble of letting them go - after all we don't rear chickens , cows or sheep then let them go on the off chance that we can blast our own dinner to death  -I eat meat and I'm well aware that an animal has to die on order for me to do so - but for heavens sake I don't make it's death part and parcel of my hobby !! . the whole 'killing for food ' arguement is just a smokescreen to try and justify killing for sport - no matter how you try and justify it the deliberate rearing of sentient living creatures for the sole purpose of killing them to afford rich corporate types a jolly day's sport is just plain WRONG


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Bijou said:


> right ...so pheasants are raised and killed primarily for food then .... ??? ....if that's true why go to all the trouble of letting them go - after all we don't rear chickens , cows or sheep then let them go on the off chance that we can blast our own dinner to death  -I eat meat and I'm well aware that an animal has to die on order for me to do so - but for heavens sake I don't make it's death part and parcel of my hobby !! . the whole 'killing for food ' arguement is just a smokescreen to try and justify killing for sport - no matter how you try and justify it the deliberate rearing of sentient living creatures for the sole purpose of killing them to afford rich corporate types a jolly day's sport is just plain WRONG


No, releasing them for shooting provides income for people who enjoy hunting and shooting. Whether or not you agree with it, in this day and age, I think *we* are far too removed from how animals live and die, and all our dead meat comes nicely packaged in polystyrene trays, ready for us to chop up and stick with a cook in sauce, or get the gravy granules out. B*ollocks to that way of life, I prefer to respect the animals I eat, and choose to buy them, or get them from shoots where they have been reared well, and killed humanely imo. I don't choose to support supermarket meat counters, because they are completely unethical in my view, and allow *us* to continue existing in ignorance (yes we know what happens, but we don't have to see it) about where it comes from.

Edited to add, game birds are not blasted to death, and guns who do shoot birds that are too close are not generally welcomed back. Ettiquette is considered incredibly important on shoots.


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## toffee44 (Oct 21, 2011)

Come here, its the norm to turn up at the pub in wellies and a dog and the shoot visits often. The pub holds shoots and pheasant and venison from local shoots are served on the menu etc.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Bijou said:


> right ...so pheasants are raised and killed primarily for food then .... ??? ....if that's true why go to all the trouble of letting them go - after all we don't rear chickens , cows or sheep then let them go on the off chance that we can blast our own dinner to death  -I eat meat and I'm well aware that an animal has to die on order for me to do so - but for heavens sake I don't make it's death part and parcel of my hobby !! . the whole 'killing for food ' arguement is just a smokescreen to try and justify killing for sport - no matter how you try and justify it the deliberate rearing of sentient living creatures for the sole purpose of killing them to afford rich corporate types a jolly day's sport is just plain WRONG


Oh dear h dear
Do you know how much some farm animals suffer to feed people, not a short quick death but their whole lives lived in a totally unnatural way?
At least those pheasants have had a free life. 
This isn't about animal welfare (Noushka excepted) this is about envy and class inverted snobbery


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Bijou said:


> right ...so pheasants are raised and killed primarily for food then .... ??? ....if that's true why go to all the trouble of letting them go - after all we don't rear chickens , cows or sheep then let them go on the off chance that we can blast our own dinner to death  -I eat meat and I'm well aware that an animal has to die on order for me to do so - but for heavens sake I don't make it's death part and parcel of my hobby !! . the whole 'killing for food ' arguement is just a smokescreen to try and justify killing for sport - no matter how you try and justify it the deliberate rearing of sentient living creatures for the sole purpose of killing them to afford rich corporate types a jolly day's sport is just plain WRONG


You're missing the point.. think of it as raising free range sheep, only they have a chance to populate in the wild and live naturally - fending for themselves.. then like we do with moorland sheep - we bring them in and shoot them.. But not all of them all killed, so more and more are breeding - you only have to drive down a Lincolnshire road to see Pheasants in their abundance..

Ugh..

Corporates/guns
- People who enjoy shooting for fun
- People who would never experience this in modern society unless they visited the country and lived there.
- People who see it as sport

Country folk/guns
- People who have to feed their families
- People who sell their quarry in order to feed their families also
- People who look after the eco-system 
- People who grow and raise your food as naturally as possible

Beaters/Pickers (Like Pete and hopefully me one day)
- People with dogs who flush out the birds from hiding so the CF and the CG can shoot them - for whatever reason.
- People with dogs that are bred to do this
- People who need to earn a living and who have dogs that can help
- People who have dogs that can bring back quarry so that if it is injured (by a bad shot) it can be killed quickly - rather than dying a slow and painful death.

City folk **some**
- Ignorant of some truths 
- Two sides of the coin - either hate it or love it - there is no middle ground.
- Could be a little more open minded...

I think that sums it up.. if I've missed anything - please feel free to add..


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

toffee44 said:


> Come here, its the norm to turn up at the pub in wellies and a dog and the shoot visits often. The pub holds shoots and pheasant and venison from local shoots are served on the menu etc.


Yes, I know a pub that can't get enough wild game


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

I think that if I were to be killed, I'd sooner be shot than have my throat slit/an electric shock to my head.

Perhaps people should be more concerned about this sort of thing.
In the Name of Progress: how soya is destroying the Amazon rainforest | Greenpeace UK


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

grandad said:


> Just got in from spending the day, feeding the birds. So I'm catching up on this thread. I haven't been in a pen all day. In fact took three partridge pens down.
> The feeders are in the woods or the game crop or adjacent to hedgerows. I'm seeing a lot of last years birds around. Also saw 2 buzzards and 1 sparrow hawk, 100's of pigeons, rooks, magpies, crows and other numerous songbirds, saw 1 fox, 3 rabbits, and a field mouse in one of the feeders. So major destruction of countryside there then. sloe berries are out, so is the sweet chesnut, loads of funghi around to.
> So farming a crop, be it wheat, corn, potatoes, beef, chickens, lamb or mutton or god forbid gamebirds is barbaric is it.
> I can tell by some of the comments on here that some people need to get real and check up on the supermarket induced methods of farming that farmers are under pressure to go into, to be able to earn a living. for chrissakes, this is a way of life to some people. who don't earn much as it is. Try competing with produce imported from other country's.
> ...


Hi Grandad, Jeeze, I seemed to have opened a can of worms here and no mistake. OOPS.
You've had a busy day then from what I read, I hopeyou've got some sloes picked, mines already brewing. Cheers Mate. Pete.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Gemmaa said:


> I think that if I were to be killed, I'd sooner be shot than have my throat slit/an electric shock to my head.
> 
> Perhaps people should be more concerned about this sort of thing.
> In the Name of Progress: how soya is destroying the Amazon rainforest | Greenpeace UK


Not always a slit of the throat - sometimes it's just a bolt gun.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

springerpete said:


> Hi Grandad, Jeeze, I seemed to have opened a can of worms here and no mistake. OOPS.
> You've had a busy day then from what I read, I hopeyou've got some sloes picked, mines already brewing. Cheers Mate. Pete.


Dammit, no sloes up here! It's two years since I had proper sloe gin!!!


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

Bijou said:


> right ...so pheasants are raised and killed primarily for food then .... ??? ....if that's true why go to all the trouble of letting them go - after all we don't rear chickens , cows or sheep then let them go on the off chance that we can blast our own dinner to death  -I eat meat and I'm well aware that an animal has to die on order for me to do so - but for heavens sake I don't make it's death part and parcel of my hobby !! . the whole 'killing for food ' arguement is just a smokescreen to try and justify killing for sport - no matter how you try and justify it the deliberate rearing of sentient living creatures for the sole purpose of killing them to afford rich corporate types a jolly day's sport is just plain WRONG


Let me think now ... Would I rather be a gamebird and meet a sudden unexpected quick death, or would I rather be a chicken/cow/sheep and be taken to the slaughterhouse and wait in line for my turn while watching my mates die.


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Dammit, no sloes up here! It's two years since I had proper sloe gin!!!


Maybe I'll send you some if you're very good. I'm beginning to regret posting that last one, it's like world war three is about to descend on my head.


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## DAVIDnCASS (Jul 19, 2011)

Growing up, I spent a lot of time on the family farm, shooting, either for pest control or for dinner, sometimes both in the case of rabbit or hare. I've never been a gamekeeper or breeder so can't comment on that side of things. What bugs me though, is that in the eyes of some I'm considered a cruel and evil person because I killed my own food. I've never been on a 'corporate' hunt, I've been lucky enough to have wild game on family land to shoot. Never carried on shooting once we had enough to feed the family, never decided to kill an animal *for fun*.

Again, p!ssed off that all shooters are lumped together as 'rich corporate folk' getting their jollies shooting animals and hooting with laughter at killing said animals.

It's sad that it has to be so black and white.

It was never about getting my jollies, it was about killing vermin to protect crops or livestock, or hunting to supply food.

Not for fun, not to get off on it.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

springerpete said:


> Maybe I'll send you some if you're very good. I'm beginning to regret posting that last one, it's like world war three is about to descend on my head.


Trust me, happens every year, should have been here for the Exmoor Emperor thread!

Edited to add, I'm afraid I'm never a good girl, never got me anywhere, so I'm always downright bad!


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Edited to add, I'm afraid I'm never a good girl, never got me anywhere, so I'm always downright bad!


You should listen to her. Don't be fooled by the teeny size! She admitted to violence in a previous thread :scared:


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

springerpete said:


> Maybe I'll send you some if you're very good. I'm beginning to regret posting that last one, it's like world war three is about to descend on my head.


Don't worry about it  It'a all the same, you get those who are for and against on everything - however - no one has actually said they are for hunting on this thread.. which I have noticed no one has picked up on..

I knew of someone who was for fox hunting but not fishing - don't know how that worked out for them.. but thats a different kettle of fish.

Do we have a link to this exmoor thread?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

SLB said:


> Don't worry about it  It'a all the same, you get those who are for and against on everything - however - no one has actually said they are for hunting on this thread.. which I have noticed no one has picked up on..
> 
> I knew of someone who was for fox hunting but not fishing - don't know how that worked out for them.. but thats a different kettle of fish.
> 
> Do we have a link to this exmoor thread?


It'll take you all night to read it if you find it, it's in general chat somewhere I believe. I think I may have contributed a few posts to that thread, ehem


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

http://www.petforums.co.uk/general-chat/129295-uks-biggest-stag-exmoor-emporer-shot-dead.html


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Thank you - this thread seems to have fizzled - I need something else to read


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## DAVIDnCASS (Jul 19, 2011)

SLB said:


> Thank you - this thread seems to have fizzled - I need something else to read


Me too, see you on the other side!! :arf:


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

springerpete said:


> Hi Grandad, Jeeze, I seemed to have opened a can of worms here and no mistake. OOPS.
> You've had a busy day then from what I read, I hopeyou've got some sloes picked, mines already brewing. Cheers Mate. Pete.


I'm picking mine in the next few days - some for vodka, and some for a repeat of the rather tasty sloe, blackberry and elderberry wine I made last year. Yum. Of course those hedgerows would no longer exist were it not for all those mean and nasty farmers and estate owners out there.....


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I've got a nice recipe for damson gin, but haven't got any damsons, just gin


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> Do you know how much some farm animals suffer to feed people, not a short quick death but their whole lives lived in a totally unnatural way?
> At least those pheasants have had a free life.


...and here we go again .....look... the fact that welfare standards in farming need to be improved has NOTHING to do with killing for entertainment - when our native wild pony breeds become over stocked do we sell shooting days for those that want the thrill of the chase or to practise their marksmanship on a live target ? - they too have had " a free life " - and the meat can be sold to the French !



> This isn't about animal welfare (Noushka excepted) this is about envy and class inverted snobbery


afraid not ....it's about the anachronism of using the death of animals as a source of pleasure - how can we say that bull fighting is wrong to the Spanish that bear baiting is wrong to the Pakistanis and that big game hunting is wrong to the Africans when we do EXACTLY the same kind of thing over here ...the arguements for the continuence of all those practices are the same - they all bring in money to often very impoverished communities and they are all part of a traditional culture ...yet who here would support any of those activities ?

..culling is one thing...killing animals for food is another ...but killing for pleasure ....well WHAT is that ? ....surely just plain wrong


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Bijou said:


> ...and here we go again .....look... the fact that welfare standards in farming need to be improved has NOTHING to do with killing for entertainment - when our native wild pony breeds become over stocked do we sell shooting days for those that want the thrill of the chase or to practise their marksmanship on a live target - they too have had " a free life " - and the meat can be sold to the French !
> 
> afraid not ....it's about the anachronism of using the death of animals as a source of pleasure - how can we say that bull fighting is wrong to the Spanish that bear baiting is wrong to the Pakistanis and that big game hunting is wrong to the Africans when we do EXACTLY the same kind of thing over here ...the arguements for the continuence of all those practices are the same - they all bring in money to often very impoverished communities and they are all part of a traditional culture ...yet who here would support any of those activities ?
> 
> ..culling is one thing...killing animals for food is another ...but killing for pleasure ....well WHAT is that ? ....surely just plain wrong


 I'm not sure why you're quoting about native ponies, that's a completely different issue from game, and no, sadly they're rounded up and sold for a few pence, some for dog food, God knows where the rest end up. Perhaps that's an ideal case to argue for better conservation and management of native species, which is hopefully, the way shooting estates are going.

Again, not sure why you mention bull baiting and bear baiting, the pheasants aren't rounded up, put in an arena, and tormented until killed, they are flushed and shot as cleanly as possible, and any that are pricked are retrieved and killed as quickly as possible. The only competetive element, is the skill of the gun pitted against the flight of the bird; incidentally, the OH shot a very high pheasant the other day, whilst out as part of a roving syndicate, he was complimented greatly on the shot, but was honest enough to admit it had been the unluckiest of birds.

These birds are farmed, ie raised to be killed, it's just that money is made from the killing part and that's what people object to. Why? If that money goes back into more conservation of an area to ensure future success of the shoot, why is this a bad thing? Or should all animals be raised out of sight in factory farms, killed out of sight so we don't get to hear how much they suffer, and all hunting/shooting is banned?? I for one, hope I never see that day, I appreciate it isn't everyone's cup of tea, and I can see both sides, but I know I prefer supporting farming methods, and shooting, for the way the animals at least have a chance of a life.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Bijou said:


> ...and here we go again .....look... the fact that welfare standards in farming need to be improved has NOTHING to do with killing for entertainment - when our native wild pony breeds become over stocked do we sell shooting days for those that want the thrill of the chase or to practise their marksmanship on a live target ? - they too have had " a free life " - and the meat can be sold to the French !
> 
> *No but people do raise big cats to be shot elsewhere and it would be unethical to shoot a pony, cow or sheep because if the shot isn't great the animal can still run away and die in cover - where it suffers - whereas with birds they are picked up by the dog that marks where it fell. *
> 
> ...


Again - the birds don't suffer or suffer long.. whereas bull baiting, bear baiting and big game hunting - the animals are suffering for hours before being killed, the big game like the ponies can wander far and wide with a a bad wound before dying - meaning the hunters can be out for hours searching for an animal that is suffering a long and painful death.

Bear and Bull baiting is cruel - because the animal has no way to escape - a lot different to shooting a bird IMO.
Also Big game is often rare - hence why it brings in more money..

Your comparisons don't really make sense...


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Bijou said:


> ...and here we go again .....look... the fact that welfare standards in farming need to be improved has NOTHING to do with killing for entertainment - when our native wild pony breeds become over stocked do we sell shooting days for those that want the thrill of the chase or to practise their marksmanship on a live target ? - they too have had " a free life " - and the meat can be sold to the French !
> 
> afraid not ....it's about the anachronism of using the death of animals as a source of pleasure - how can we say that bull fighting is wrong to the Spanish that bear baiting is wrong to the Pakistanis and that big game hunting is wrong to the Africans when we do EXACTLY the same kind of thing over here ...the arguements for the continuence of all those practices are the same - they all bring in money to often very impoverished communities and they are all part of a traditional culture ...yet who here would support any of those activities ?
> 
> ..culling is one thing...killing animals for food is another ...but killing for pleasure ....well WHAT is that ? ....surely just plain wrong


But it's not for entertainment


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

springerpete said:


> Hi Grandad, Jeeze, I seemed to have opened a can of worms here and no mistake. OOPS.
> You've had a busy day then from what I read, I hopeyou've got some sloes picked, mines already brewing. Cheers Mate. Pete.


Traditionally, I only pick after the first frost. I know you can cheat by putting them in the freezer. 
Had some nice sloe's gin t'other day, 5 year old with a touch of vanilla. It was so good I had to have a 2nd and 3rd nip. 
But I better be careful. I might get accused of hurting the bush when I pick the berries


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

DAVIDnCASS said:


> Growing up, I spent a lot of time on the family farm, shooting, either for pest control or for dinner, sometimes both in the case of rabbit or hare. I've never been a gamekeeper or breeder so can't comment on that side of things. What bugs me though, is that in the eyes of some I'm considered a cruel and evil person because I killed my own food. I've never been on a 'corporate' hunt, I've been lucky enough to have wild game on family land to shoot. Never carried on shooting once we had enough to feed the family, never decided to kill an animal *for fun*.
> 
> Again, p!ssed off that all shooters are lumped together as 'rich corporate folk' getting their jollies shooting animals and hooting with laughter at killing said animals.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, death is a matter of black or white. The point is how you kill something. To kill anything, that has to be killed whether for food or for any other reason is to do it humanely. DEFRA has guidlines for this in regard to animals. In the case of livestock there is electrocution followrd by throat cutting. 
I prefer the bolt gun for fallen stock. I have taken many an animal on it's last journey and watched proceedings a number of times. It comes down to the fact that you have grown a crop for human consumption and you are doing the job of feeding the nation. 
I personally prefer to do this in the most humane way possible. So do a lot of the farming folk I know. 
Game shooting earns people a living and puts food into the food chain for human consumption. Helps conservation and feeds wild animals and birds. There is a 40% chance that a gamebird will live a long and fruitful life. probably about the same chance as any other wild animal. 
Conscience clear. End of story for me.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Bijou said:


> ...and here we go again .....look... the fact that welfare standards in farming need to be improved has NOTHING to do with killing for entertainment - when our native wild pony breeds become over stocked do we sell shooting days for those that want the thrill of the chase or to practise their marksmanship on a live target ? - they too have had " a free life " - and the meat can be sold to the French !
> 
> afraid not ....it's about the anachronism of using the death of animals as a source of pleasure - how can we say that bull fighting is wrong to the Spanish that bear baiting is wrong to the Pakistanis and that big game hunting is wrong to the Africans when we do EXACTLY the same kind of thing over here ...the arguements for the continuence of all those practices are the same - they all bring in money to often very impoverished communities and they are all part of a traditional culture ...yet who here would support any of those activities ?
> 
> ..culling is one thing...killing animals for food is another ...but killing for pleasure ....well WHAT is that ? ....surely just plain wrong


So,tell me....is it okay to kill an elephant if it's destroying a farmers crops and threatening his livelyhood? and is it imorral if the person asked to do the killing has paid the famer to kill the animal? After all the farmer probalby wouldn't have the money to own the correct type of gun and bullets required for such a killing. So in a way the farmer gets compensated for the loss of his crop. Or would starvation for him and his family alng with financial loss be the right moral code, so long as an animal doesn't get killed. It happens in parts of Africa, I can testify to that and heard of families eating the bark off tree's to survive.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

grandad said:


> Your wrong


i do hope so, but i still believe millions of gamebirds are still kept this way, do you know if they got a ban last year(check out below)? because i cant find anything either way  ....also if millions of eggs and poults are still imported over here then thats an awful lot of birds suffering in battery conditions.... i'd love to be proved wrong though, i hate intensive farming full stop!.. if youve got any literature to prove me wrong i'd be really greatful

e subject is an emotive one. Should gamebirds be confined in raised cages for the purpose of producing our sport? Breeding partridges have to be housed in pairs  and that means an enclosure of some sort. Equally, if you import eggs or poults from overseas, it is likely that these have their origins in some sort of cage rather than on a grass-based system. The concern of many in the gamefarming and shooting sector is that should DEFRA decide on a total ban on cages in England, it will effectively force gameshooters to rely heavily on imports of eggs and poults produced under lower welfare standards. Shooters would also become more vulnerable to import bans, for example due to avian flu.

Importantly, the independent Farm Animal Welfare Council (FAWC) published an opinion on the subject of gamefarming at DEFRAs behest in November 2008. FAWCs opinion was adamant: barren cages are unacceptable. It did not call for a total ban on all cages, however. Instead, it stated clearly: It is possible that with research on space and environmental enrichment, suitable accommodation to house a single cock pheasant and a harem of hen pheasants might be developed to meet the physical and behavioural needs of the birds. DEFRAs own independent advisor, then, has categorically not called for the complete prohibition of cages

BASC supports a ban 
Tellingly, the cause of much of the controversy surrounding cages lies not in their existence, but in the fact that, in common with shootings opponents, the British Association for Shooting and Conservation (BASC) is wholeheartedly set against their use. This position was arrived at after a film made by the animal rights group Animal Aid was televised in late 2004. Following secret filming at UK gamefarms, Assault and battery purported to show the horrific conditions gamebirds endure in barren cages. BASC was quick in its public condemnation of those gamefarmers using them. The association declared that cages were incompatible with its values and with the future of gameshooting. It is not opposed to raised laying units per se, but argues that the minimum space requirement, in its opinion, is one square meter per pheasant and that stocking density is then dictated by the size of the pen. BASCs critics contend that, at the space requirements it proposes, cages would be too big to raise off the ground, but that the same space requirements in a ground-based system would lead to a build-up of mud and faeces in the unit.

BASC has stuck to its principled position since 2004. Several days ago, BASCs director of communications Christopher Graffius lobbied MPs from all parties seeking their support for a parliamentary Early Day Motion  EDM No 507. This motion, tabled by Labour MP Martin Salter, calls for a complete ban on the use of battery cages to produce gamebirds eggs  whether enriched or not. It does not mention any desire to see cages enriched to a condition acceptable by the industry or DEFRA. BASC also called on MPs to lobby the DEFRA minister responsible for the code, Jim Fitzpatrick, directly for a ban. So far the EDM has attracted more than 100 signatories, mostly Labour MPs. Many will stand down at the election, just days after the codes introduction. Following this lobbying, the League Against Cruel Sports crowingly described BASC as surprising allies


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

so anyway has anyone got any tips on making sloe gin then??? lol... we've got a huge bag full in the freezer from last year....will they still be okay to use?:arf:


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> so anyway has anyone got any tips on making sloe gin then??? lol... we've got a huge bag full in the freezer from last year....will they still be okay to use?:arf:


They'll be fine - freezing saves on the hassle of stabbing them individually. Chuck them in a jar with sugar and a drop of vanilla extract, cover with gin, shake every day until the sugar's dissolved. After 3 months or so, strain into sterilised bottles. Try to leave it a year. You will fail 
For every pound of sloes you want about 3oz sugar and about 900mls gin (or vodka, which I prefer).
Easy peasy!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

myshkin said:


> They'll be fine - freezing saves on the hassle of stabbing them individually. Chuck them in a jar with sugar and a drop of vanilla extract, cover with gin, shake every day until the sugar's dissolved. After 3 months or so, strain into sterilised bottles. Try to leave it a year. You will fail
> For every pound of sloes you want about 3oz sugar and about 900mls gin (or vodka, which I prefer).
> Easy peasy!


wow thanks thats brillant! x roll on february! lol


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I think it's just a code of practice for pheasants
If this is what they are doing for laying hens then I can't see that cages will be banned for pheasant. 
Bl**dy disgusting I call it 
The years and years that we have all been discussing banning chicken cages and they still can't bring it about 

http://www.parliament.uk/Templates/BriefingPapers/Pages/BPPdfDownload.aspx?bp-id=SN01367


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## toffee44 (Oct 21, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Dammit, no sloes up here! It's two years since I had proper sloe gin!!!


I hadnt had sloe gin for three years until two weeks ago I discovered a bottle we made three years ago.....lethal stuff. Not sure what happened after I drank some


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

toffee44 said:


> I hadnt had sloe gin for three years until two weeks ago I discovered a bottle we made three years ago.....lethal stuff. Not sure what happened after I drank some


Dammit, everyone's got sloe gin except me!! 

I hate to say it, but why is there this overall negative perception of game bird rearing? I've said before, I'll say it again, it happens that in some instances, they are reared intensively, which is the same as the practices for raising animals for the table across the board. But there are shoots, and quite a few of them, who prefer to raise their own game birds and they are not reared intensively, or in cruel conditions. Maybe it'd be nice to remember that, and not just focus on the negatives.


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## skyblue (Sep 15, 2010)

albert 1970 said:


> this is always trotted out.....killing for fun....or sport as its called..is very different from killing to eat!


legit hunts like shoots etc are for food


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Dammit, everyone's got sloe gin except me!!
> 
> I hate to say it, but why is there this overall negative perception of game bird rearing? I've said before, I'll say it again, it happens that in some instances, they are reared intensively, which is the same as the practices for raising animals for the table across the board. But there are shoots, and quite a few of them, who prefer to raise their own game birds and they are not reared intensively, or in cruel conditions. Maybe it'd be nice to remember that, and not just focus on the negatives.


Unfortunately it is about perceptions though. Think of the perception of bankers, or the perception of politicians, or the perception of most professional footballers. The media has a lot to do with how the world is perceived, and a lot of people beleive what they read in the newspapers. As is usual it is mainly flawed, and bears no resemblance to reality. I know of big game rearing operatons. (90,000 birds +) but they are managed on good principles and are spotlessly clean. We buy our poults form one of them. Welfare is always high priority in lives stock rearing. If it isn't you don't sell your product and get a bad reputation.


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## Gragface (Oct 8, 2011)

I didn't realise people had gun dogs and went to shoots with them before joining these forums. I must live in a bubble!


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Isn`t it wonderful how brave some blokes get after a pint or two? 
All mouth and trousers, as my mother used to say.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> Again, not sure why you mention bull baiting and bear baiting, the pheasants aren't rounded up, put in an arena, and tormented until killed, they are flushed and shot as cleanly as possible, and any that are pricked are retrieved and killed as quickly as possible.


...because the principle behind all those other bloodsports are the same - the details may be different but all involve killing animals not for food , not for culling but for entertainment ...and don't give me all this guff about the birds having a 'sporting chance' to get away - remember I live next to land used for the shoot - what do you think the beaters are there for ? - they drive the birds deliberately towards the waiting guns where they are killed in huge numbers ( along with any other bird caught in the cross fire ) - how is this more acceptable than the hare coursing that also goes on ( illegally) in the fields surrounding our house ?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

JennyClifford said:


> I think it's just a code of practice for pheasants
> If this is what they are doing for laying hens then I can't see that cages will be banned for pheasant.
> Bl**dy disgusting I call it
> The years and years that we have all been discussing banning chicken cages and they still can't bring it about
> ...


its an absolute inhumane disgrace!....as is the way these poor gamebirds are kept , but at the end of the day its down to the consumer to only buy from the most ethical sources. I would say those who 'produce' on a large intensive scale are the ones who should be avoided.

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/images/pdf/battery08.pdf

Animal Aid: Assault & Battery - where factory farming meets bloodsports



grandad said:


> Unfortunately it is about perceptions though. Think of the perception of bankers, or the perception of politicians, or the perception of most professional footballers. The media has a lot to do with how the world is perceived, and a lot of people beleive what they read in the newspapers. As is usual it is mainly flawed, and bears no resemblance to reality. I know of big game rearing operatons. (90,000 birds +) but they are managed on good principles and are spotlessly clean. We buy our poults form one of them. Welfare is always high priority in lives stock rearing. If it isn't you don't sell your product and get a bad reputation.


sadly there must be something in it if even BASC are concerned about the welfare of many of these gamebirds used for breeding,

have to say im not into shooting for sport but respect to BASC for admitting the welfare of many gamebirds, is to put it mildly, Poor....good on them for speaking out against it....nice one BASC

i found this aswell yet still cant find the outcome of the vote Shooting UK: BASC urges Labour MPs to ban raised laying cages | Shooting and field sports news, politics and legal | Shooting UK | Shooting UK

,,


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

SHOOTING: THE SPORT: THE FACTS - YouTube


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Bijou said:


> ...because the principle behind all those other bloodsports are the same - the details may be different but all involve killing animals not for food , not for culling but for entertainment ...and don't give me all this guff about the birds having a 'sporting chance' to get away - remember I live next to land used for the shoot - what do you think the beaters are there for ? - they drive the birds deliberately towards the waiting guns where they are killed in huge numbers ( along with any other bird caught in the cross fire ) - how is this more acceptable than the hare coursing that also goes on ( illegally) in the fields surrounding our house ?


I don't think you're talking about hare coursing, I think you're talking about poaching, which is very different 

Ok, so you raise your poults, make sure they're healthy, advertise your shoot, get customers in, what do you expect them to do, drive the birds away from the guns? What guff? They have more of a chance of survival than any chicken raised for the table, and the proof is out there in our countryside. And what a load of nonsense about 'birds caught in the crossfire'?? All shoots have their rules, and all guns are told what they can and can't shoot, and it's very, very much frowned upon to shoot something that isn't allowed.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Just for Noushka, it'd be nice if all birds destined for the table had accommodation like this, nice that the BASC is at the forefront of pushing for this for game birds, a shame there isn't another organisation doing the same for poultry destined simply to be raised and killed for the table 

BASC welcomes Defra decision on laying cages.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just for Noushka, it'd be nice if all birds destined for the table had accommodation like this, nice that the BASC is at the forefront of pushing for this for game birds, a shame there isn't another organisation doing the same for poultry destined simply to be raised and killed for the table
> 
> BASC welcomes Defra decision on laying cages.


or for laying birds. I hope you all know that supermarket free range eggs come from barns of several thousand birds that do have access to the outside during the day if they can find the door and are not pecked or trampled to death first.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> SHOOTING: THE SPORT: THE FACTS


...and here are some more 'facts' about game shooting .......

Game birds are not protected under farming regulations or animal welfare law and as a result they are reared in cruel conditions.

Laying hens on many farms are kept in intensive conditions, using the same type of small battery cage that has been made illegal for farmed chickens.

Chicks are kept in sheds, often packed in their thousands. The stress they endure can cause aggressive behaviours such as feather pecking and cannibalism. To control this, birds are fitted with masks or bits - devices which mutilate them and prevent their beaks from closing properly. ( you can see this on that film )

The 40% of pheasants and 90% of partridges that are imported to the UK from France, Spain and Portugal also suffer immensely during transport.

Protected species such as badgers, otters and birds of prey continue to be poisoned, trapped and shot in the name of predator control.

There is no mandatory training required for using firearms anywhere in the UK, licences are often granted to inexperienced and young people, meaning that birds are often not killed outright but instead are wounded by novice shooters.

Thousands of tonnes of lead shot are discharged over rural Britain. Lead shot is harmful to wildlife preying on shot birds and can leave poisonous residue in the soil, lakes and rivers.

Far from ending up on the dinner table, vast numbers of dead birds are dumped as waste product; they are often buried in mass graves, which pose further environmental risks.

It is estimated that almost half of the 47 million birds released each year do not even reach the sight of the gun but instead die from exposure, cannibalism, predation, traffic collision or starvation. Because of their unnatural diet of soya pellets and dependence on humans to provide shelter and food, the released gamebird is ill equipped to feed itself and survive on its own in the wild.

Gamekeepers snare, trap, poison and bludgeon tens of thousands of animals each week, including protected species and domestic pets, in an effort to protect game birds from natural predators.

The mass release of pheasants can have a detrimental impact on crops and agricultural land as well as diminishing the food supply for localised wildlife.

...look ,...if it's all about " enjoying the countryside" why on earth do you have to kill things as part of that enjoyment ? ...just go for a walk !! ....


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Bijou said:


> ...and here are some more 'facts' about game shooting .......
> 
> Game birds are not protected under farming regulations or animal welfare law and as a result they are reared in cruel conditions.
> 
> ...


Virtually everything you have said above is incorrect.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

incorrect or just not admitted ??


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Bijou said:


> ...and here are some more 'facts' about game shooting .......
> 
> Game birds are not protected under farming regulations or animal welfare law and as a result they are reared in cruel conditions.
> 
> ...


Wow - lets put you on Survival! I honestly cannot be bothered anymore - you've been told things by game keepers themselves and yet you prefer to agree with something you pulled off the net with little figures and little supporting evidence that blames everyone BUT the keepers and the first few "facts" are about chickens so it doesn't even make sense..


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Bijou said:


> The Killing Game - The truth about shooting - YouTube


Sorry, switched it off as soon as I saw who it was by, the most hypocritical and ill informed group of people I've ever come across!

League Against Cruel Sports sanctuary exposé - YouTube

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the type of sweeping generalisations and rubbish posted about *all* shoots and *all* people involved in hunting and shooting never ceases to amaze me. If we were to say the same against another group of people, then it would be classed as discrimination 

I never say every single person involved with hunting and shooting is whiter than white, and there are some who are associated with hunting and shooting, who I'd suggest have nothing to do with it, but rather a separate thuggery section, such as the 'hare coursing' you mentioned, which is in fact just poaching but mislabelled hare coursing by those who don't actually understand what that sport entailed before it became banned.

If you really want to focus on banning cruelty to animals, ban pet ownership, it's one of the largest areas of animal cruelty, and subjects thousands upon thousands of animals to a needless death every year.

The shoots I know of, sell their game on to restaurants where it's highly sought after, or on to firms which process and then sell on again. One local farmer with a shoot on a grouse moor, sells his on individually to those who know him, because it's such a small shoot they don't have the numbers needed to guarantee supplies to restaurants. It's also the place I happen to get my lamb and pork from, never sees the inside of an abbatoir or butchers shop, and certainly not a supermarket.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

something wrong with people that kill for fun.......end of story!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> something wrong with people that kill for fun.......end of story!


The people that eat cheap chickens are ok though?
Much more cruelty in that


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> something wrong with people that kill for fun.......end of story!


There's something wrong with people who don't respect where their food comes from, and don't respect an animal enough that they would eat, to ensure it met a swift end and dealt with the carcass with care and attention, but would rather just rely on a supermarket to package up anonymous parcels of dead animal for them.

Works both ways


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> There's something wrong with people who don't respect where their food comes from, and don't respect an animal enough that they would eat, to ensure it met a swift end and dealt with the carcass with care and attention, but would rather just rely on a supermarket to package up anonymous parcels of dead animal for them.
> 
> Works both ways


no it doesnt......if you kill for fun...there issomething wrong with you....end of!


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

JennyClifford said:


> The people that eat cheap chickens are ok though?
> Much more cruelty in that


may not be right....but theyre not doing it for fun are they!!!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> no it doesnt......if you kill for fun...there issomething wrong with you....end of!


So you'd prefer to see all animals subjected to the sort of cruel lifestyle and short lifespan the majority have before they end up on supermarket shelves, rather than free to roam, and possibly shot? That's logic for ya


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Bijou said:


> ...and here are some more 'facts' about game shooting .......
> 
> Game birds are not protected under farming regulations or animal welfare law and as a result they are reared in cruel conditions.
> 
> ...


By the way, birds that reach the guns DO stand a sporting chance as a shotgun will only hold two shells so if two of your mates fly over before you then you stand a high chance of getting passed. If you are the third bull, sheep or chicken in the line to the men in white you are still going to die.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So you'd prefer to see all animals subjected to the sort of cruel lifestyle and short lifespan the majority have before they end up on supermarket shelves, rather than free to roam, and possibly shot? That's logic for ya


where have i supported supermarkets,and theyre treatment of animals.....i made a statement.......there is something wrong with someone who kills for fun..or am i wrong?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

albert 1970 said:


> where have i supported supermarkets,and theyre treatment of animals.....i made a statement.......there is something wrong with someone who kills for fun..or am i wrong?


But do you deem it wrong to kill an animal for fun (as obviously shoots are enjoyable for those ionvolved .... apart form the bird ) but then take your kill home for dinner? Do you still think that's wrong?

Personally I don't eat meat & as long as the game brids are reared responsibly then I don't see a problem. On one of walks there is a wooded area where they have alot of young birds (they must be old enough as they are free to roam), we've had quite a few in our garden lately.

They seem to have a lovely life which is more than can be said for alot of factory farmed birds as has been pointred out


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> where have i supported supermarkets,and theyre treatment of animals.....i made a statement.......there is something wrong with someone who kills for fun..or am i wrong?


So are you vegetarian?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> where have i supported supermarkets,and theyre treatment of animals.....i made a statement.......there is something wrong with someone who kills for fun..or am i wrong?


Do you eat meat and do you enjoy it, and if so, where would you say you bought most of it from?


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Do you eat meat and do you enjoy it, and if so, where would you say you bought most of it from?


what has that got to do with my statement ?


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

albert 1970 said:


> where have i supported supermarkets,and theyre treatment of animals.....i made a statement.......there is something wrong with someone who kills for fun..or am i wrong?


What if the guy at the abattoir enjoyed his job because he had spent years developing the best way to dispatch the animal as soon as possible to ensure that it was done respectfully, was constantly striving to become more and more accurate? What about the guy in the back that bleeds them? What if his greatest pride was how sharp he could get a blade and not blunt it on bone by being accurate in getting it just right?
What about the guy who takes great satisfaction in how fast they can prepare a carcass from it coming to him to being stamped by the food authority guy?
Are these people wrong or cruel or are they masters of their task?
That's all a shooter wants to be.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

hutch6 said:


> What if the guy at the abattoir enjoyed his job because he had spent years developing the best way to dispatch the animal as soon as possible to ensure that it was done respectfully, was constantly striving to become more and more accurate? What about the guy in the back that bleeds them? What if his greatest pride was how sharp he could get a blade and not blunt it on bone by being accurate in getting it just right?
> What about the guy who takes great satisfaction in how fast they can prepare a carcass from it coming to him to being stamped by the food authority guy?
> Are these people wrong or cruel or are they masters of their task?
> That's all a shooter wants to be.


il say it one more time......there is something wrong with someone who kills for FUN!.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

I know who I'd like to kill for fun! :thumbup:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> il say it one more time......there is something wrong with someone who kills for FUN!.


I'll say it one more time as well then, there's something wrong with people who don't respect the animals they eat, enough to be able to despatch them with their own hands, and prepare them with the due care and respect they deserve.

The reason I asked about the food you eat, is many people accept cruelty from the comfort of their arm chair without actually understanding the wider issue. How many people who condemn hunting and shooting buy fast food? How many people regularly buy produce they like, but it's out of season and has been brought in from Africa, or New Zealand? How many people buy cheap bargain furniture and clothes without caring where that comes from, or why it's so cheap? The vast majority of people unfortunately, and yet ask all of them about hunting and shooting, and many would condemn it without understanding it.

Have you actually been on a shoot? Because unless you have, you may have no understanding at all of what happens, shooting game birds or ground game is a very small part of the day's proceedings.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

albert 1970 said:


> il say it one more time......there is something wrong with someone who kills for FUN!.


To you but for anyone who has spent time with a shoot or just spoken to a large number who shoot and asked why they do it you will get the same passionate reply just the same as you get from any game angler.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'll say it one more time as well then, there's something wrong with people who don't respect the animals they eat, enough to be able to despatch them with their own hands, and prepare them with the due care and respect they deserve.
> 
> The reason I asked about the food you eat, is many people accept cruelty from the comfort of their arm chair without actually understanding the wider issue. How many people who condemn hunting and shooting buy fast food? How many people regularly buy produce they like, but it's out of season and has been brought in from Africa, or New Zealand? How many people buy cheap bargain furniture and clothes without caring where that comes from, or why it's so cheap? The vast majority of people unfortunately, and yet ask all of them about hunting and shooting, and many would condemn it without understanding it.
> 
> Have you actually been on a shoot? Because unless you have, you may have no understanding at all of what happens, shooting game birds or ground game is a very small part of the day's proceedings.


if people kill to eat...ive got no problem!why are you using this line on me?im not here to defend supermarkets!


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Zaros said:


> I know who I'd like to kill for fun! :thumbup:


zzzzzzzzz still here are you


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

albert 1970 said:


> if people kill to eat...ive got no problem!why are you using this line on me?im not here to defend supermarkets!


But what if they have fun whilst doing so?


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Cleo38 said:


> But what if they have fun whilst doing so?


Then that's an outrage!!


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> But what if they have fun whilst doing so?


then theres something wrong with them!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

hutch6 said:


> Then that's an outrage!!


:lol::lol::lol: That's what I thought!!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> if people kill to eat...ive got no problem!why are you using this line on me?im not here to defend supermarkets!


Because, that's where the majority of people shop for their own convenience, it certainly isn't for the convenience of the animal, and most consumers of meat and animal produce demand the cheapest they can get. Yet ask most meat eaters if they had to kill their own food, I doubt very much if many would volunteer, and yet so many would be willing to condemn a sport they know nothing about.


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

Albert I assume you eat meat. Where do you buy it from?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> il say it one more time......there is something wrong with someone who kills for FUN!.


You are totally allowed to have that opinion.
It's just a pity that you cannot see the whole picture.
Have you ever been on a shoot?


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Because, that's where the majority of people shop for their own convenience, it certainly isn't for the convenience of the animal, and most consumers of meat and animal produce demand the cheapest they can get. Yet ask most meat eaters if they had to kill their own food, I doubt very much if many would volunteer, and yet so many would be willing to condemn a sport they know nothing about.


its not sport!its killing for fun!!!!very sad people im afraid...i cant say on here what id do to them,as id get banned!


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

It seems the majority of people were against foxhunting and would rather foxes were controlled by being shot, trapped, or poisoned and culled by people employed and paid to do it, rather than people paying for the privilege. Same with Bambi, professionals hired to cull should do the job, not some weirdo paying to kill things. The majority would probably also be against the intensive farming of game birds in order to release them into the wild and have people pay to shoot them.

Same with their food. They want someone paid to despatch their dinner and doing so because it's a dirty job, but someone has to do it. If people wanted to pay to kill animals in an abattoir and become proud of their expertise in the quick despatch of a pig or a lamb.....

I doubt Albert 1970's view is a minority view tbh, it just seems it here.

Me, I have no problem with hunting foxes with hounds, shooting deer, or shooting game-birds. I'd prefer the game-birds weren't born and raised in factory farms, but other than that, I don't think people are any more bloodthirsty and cruel for choosing shooting as a hobby than those who watch the MotoGP, or play tennis. It'll be banned in the end though I expect and whilst the fox hunters go drag hunting, the shooters will be shooting clay pigeons.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

albert 1970 said:


> then theres something wrong with them!


You said you didn't have an issue with folk killing for the table but don't want them doing it in a good mood and enjoying themselves. I am one who kills for the table so can you tell me what mood and state of mind I should be in please just so I can see things from your side?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

lucylastic said:


> Albert I assume you eat meat. Where do you buy it from?


I doubt you'll get an answer, apparently it's not relevant to the issue of cruelty to animals 

Just a thought, what about all the gardeners who grow their own fruit and veg, plants have feelings too after all


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

lucylastic said:


> Albert I assume you eat meat. Where do you buy it from?


not relevant....so wont answer!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

albert 1970 said:


> then theres something wrong with them!


So you can kill for your dinner as long as you don't enjoy it??!! Lots of miserable shooters, game keepers & beaters would be ok then?!! :confused1:


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

JennyClifford said:


> You are totally allowed to have that opinion.
> It's just a pity that you cannot see the whole picture.
> Have you ever been on a shoot?


no i havnt,,,if i did it wouldnt be the birds i was shooting!


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## Gragface (Oct 8, 2011)

What about people who fish? Do they have something wrong with them for finding it fun?

Im curious to understand.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> So you can kill for your dinner as long as you don't enjoy it??!! Lots of miserable shooters, game keepers & beaters would be ok then?!! :confused1:


are you deliberatly missing my point......fun...is my issue!


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> not relevant....so wont answer!


I think it is very relevant.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> no i havnt,,,if i did it wouldnt be the birds i was shooting!


Just wondered if you have been involved in farming at all?


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Gragface said:


> What about people who fish? Do they have something wrong with them for finding it fun?
> 
> Im curious to understand.


i dont like fishing.....wouldnt do it myself.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> its not sport!its killing for fun!!!!very sad people im afraid...i cant say on here what id do to them,as id get banned!


That's your opinion, I beg to differ


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

JennyClifford said:


> Just wondered if you have been involved in farming at all?


no i havnt.....


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> That's your opinion, I beg to differ


so do you think its fun to kill animals.....is it ok to kill for entertainment?yes or no?????


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

albert 1970 said:


> are you deliberatly missing my point......fun...is my issue!


I'm not missing your point I just don't get it but then it doesn't really seem as if you have a valid point

Many people hunt & eat what they have killed, they also enjoy it - why is this wrong?


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> I'm not missing your point I just don't get it but then it doesn't really seem as if you have a valid point
> 
> Many people hunt & eat what they have killed, they also enjoy it - why is this wrong?


if they eat it...i have no problem....i think its odd...but have no problem with it.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> no i havnt.....


Then you have no insight into what others are saying to you?
What do you base your decision on?


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> so do you think its fun to kill animals.....is it ok to kill for entertainment?yes or no?????


It's not the killing that's fun. The birds are shot for the *table*. it's the company, being out in the countryside, the nips of sloe gin, the gossip, the incredible sight of well trained working dogs.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> so do you think its fun to kill animals.....is it ok to kill for entertainment?yes or no?????


Your post said it's not a sport, my response was, I beg to differ.

So you've never had any experience of hunting, shooting, fishing and farming, won't answer where you buy your meat from because that's not relevant, but all those who enjoy hunting and shooting, because we care about the countryside, and enjoy eating game birds, knowing they were raised carefully, killed as cleanly and as quickly as possible, and prepared by our own hands, are evil nasty people who deserve shooting. Right, I see exactly where you're coming from


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

JennyClifford said:


> Then you have no insight into what others are saying to you?
> What do you base your decision on?


why do i need insight?i dont agree with killing for fun.....i dont need to be a farmer to have tht opinion!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

albert 1970 said:


> if they eat it...i have no problem....i think its odd...but have no problem with it.


How can this be odd? I could see if you were veggie then your viewpoint may be more understandble but for a meat eater :confused1:

Do you enjoy eating meat? Is that wrong as you are actually enjoying eating an animal, one that has died for your plate?


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Your post said it's not a sport, my response was, I beg to differ.
> 
> So you've never had any experience of hunting, shooting, fishing and farming, won't answer where you buy your meat from because that's not relevant, but all those who enjoy hunting and shooting, because we care about the countryside, and enjoy eating game birds, knowing they were raised carefully, killed as cleanly and as quickly as possible, and prepared by our own hands, are evil nasty people who deserve shooting. Right, I see exactly where you're coming from


not what ive said...i see you couldnt answer the question.....thanks..that says it all.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Shooting to eat is very different to killing for fun. 

Killing for fun is merely to take pleasure from the act of killing. The pleasure in shooting for the pot is knowing you did your best by that animal and produced a meal for your table.

I have way more respect for that than the usual "chuck 2 chickens for a fiver into the shopping trolley and ignore the fact they have been kept in horrible squalid conditions" 

I would imagine the people that keep their birds like that get immense pleasure from their bank balance helped along by the masses :

I really don't think people can take the higher moral ground on this subject unless they are a veggie.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> How can this be odd? I could see if you were veggie then your viewpoint may be more understandble but for a meat eater :confused1:
> 
> Do you enjoy eating meat? Is that wrong as you are actually enjoying eating an animal, one that has died for your plate?


why do you find it so strange,that i find killing for fun odd????


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> why do you find it so strange,that i find killing for fun odd????


But eating is a pleasurable thing so everything that has died that end up on your plate has been killed for your pleasure 

THATS the point people are attempting to make :

Your viewpoint appears hypocrytical


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> not what ive said...i see you couldnt answer the question.....thanks..that says it all.


Why should I bother to answer your questions when you can't be bothered to answer anyone else's? And why isn't it ok for me to make assumptions about others, seems to be your speciality.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> But eating is a pleasurable thing so everything that has died that end up on your plate has been killed for your pleasure
> 
> THATS the point people are attempting to make :
> 
> Your viewpoint appears hypocrytical


i cant keep saying the sme thing...you lot are trotting out your pro hunting propaganda...ive made a statement...thats it....im not defending cheap meat in supermarkets...but your all using this as a counter arguement against me.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Why should I bother to answer your questions when you can't be bothered to answer anyone else's? And why isn't it ok for me to make assumptions about others, seems to be your speciality.


ive made no assumptions....i made a statement...thats it!


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> i cant keep saying the sme thing...you lot are trotting out your pro hunting propaganda...ive made a statement...thats it....im not defending cheap meat in supermarkets...but your all using this as a counter arguement against me.


We've all been talking about shooting do keep up old chap.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> i cant keep saying the sme thing...you lot are trotting out your pro hunting propaganda...ive made a statement...thats it....im not defending cheap meat in supermarkets...but your all using this as a counter arguement against me.


And you're trotting out your anti propaganda and for some reason think that everyone should agree with you! Read Rainybow's response, it's pretty much what I'd type, if I could honestly be bothered because I know you'll just dismiss it.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> But eating is a pleasurable thing so everything that has died that end up on your plate has been killed for your pleasure
> 
> THATS the point people are attempting to make :
> 
> Your viewpoint appears hypocrytical


i dont disagree with what your saying....not sure what this has to do with my statement.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> And you're trotting out your anti propaganda and for some reason think that everyone should agree with you! Read Rainybow's response, it's pretty much what I'd type, if I could honestly be bothered because I know you'll just dismiss it.


im not asking anyone to agree....i think people who kill for fun...have something wrong with them......my opinion


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> im not asking anyone to agree....i think people who kill for fun...have something wrong with them......my opinion


Yes but you are forming that opinion on what in relation to shooting game birds? You have absolutely no experience or understanding of a shoot day, and yet are vehemently against it as you think everybody jumps for joy each time a bird is shot, and revels in it's demise, which is simply not the case.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Yes but you are forming that opinion on what in relation to shooting game birds? You have absolutely no experience or understanding of a shoot day, and yet are vehemently against it as you think everybody jumps for joy each time a bird is shot, and revels in it's demise, which is simply not the case.


what was that about making assumptions?


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## Gragface (Oct 8, 2011)

Personally I dont find it weird or wrong that people enjoy a day out with friends and find a sense of achievement in eating or selling what they've killed. I've never seen a hunt, so I dont fully understand how it all works.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> what was that about making assumptions?


You've already shown how much you know in general about shoots from what you've posted. If you've been on a shoot then it's nothing like any shoots I've been on.

I am the first to admit, and I've said it in this thread several times, that there are of course people involved in the *sport* that shouldn't be, but that's the same with everything. There are types of shoots I don't like, the huge commercial shoots where thousands are shot every year I find distasteful, shooting towers are awful contraptions, but that's not the type of shoot the OP attends.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Aren't abattoir workers more disturbing? 'specially the ones that abuse the animals.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> You've already shown how much you know in general about shoots from what you've posted. If you've been on a shoot then it's nothing like any shoots I've been on.
> 
> I am the first to admit, and I've said it in this thread several times, that there are of course people involved in the *sport* that shouldn't be, but that's the same with everything. There are types of shoots I don't like, the huge commercial shoots where thousands are shot every year I find distasteful, shooting towers are awful contraptions, but that's not the type of shoot the OP attends.


i dont need to of been on a shoot to hold my opinion....


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> i dont need to of been on a shoot to hold my opinion....


So for the benefit of those of us who aren't psychic, how is your opinion formed, is it just what you read on the internet, on here and other places?


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)




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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

Gemmaa said:


> Aren't abattoir workers more disturbing? 'specially the ones that abuse the animals.


Maybe Albert should visit an abbatoir to see people who enjoy killing.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

lucylastic said:


> Maybe Albert should visit an abbatoir to see people who enjoy killing.


Maybe he should make it a one way trip! :thumbup:


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So for the benefit of those of us who aren't psychic, how is your opinion formed, is it just what you read on the internet, on here and other places?


are you for real??i dont like animals being killed for fun....i dont need to read about that on the internetdo you have an opinion on kids starving in ethopia????oooohhh no you cant have...youve never been there or starved......its a ridiculous arguement.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Zaros said:


> Maybe he should make it a one way trip! :thumbup:


and maybe you shouldnt make it so personal, he is only voicing an opinion.... god help us if we all thought the same


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

Zaros said:


> Maybe he should make it a one way trip! :thumbup:


pmsl....not read all the thread, so many pages lol....what has 'albert' done now??

Behave Mr !!!


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Zaros said:


> Maybe he should make it a one way trip! :thumbup:


maybe you could type me to death.....dear oh dear


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> are you for real??i dont like animals being killed for fun....i dont need to read about that on the internetdo you have an opinion on kids starving in ethopia????oooohhh no you cant have...youve never been there or starved......its a ridiculous arguement.


Actually I've lived in Africa, and saw severe poverty in a number of countries, (including some cases of malnutrition) in Namibia, Botswana, Zimbabwe, Tanzania and Zanzibar.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Actually I've lived in Africa, and saw severe poverty in a number of countries, (including some cases of malnutrition) in Namibia, Botswana, Zimbabwe, Tanzania and Zanzibar.


thats pissed on my cornflakes then!


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> thats pissed on my cornflakes then!


soggy cornflakes for brekkie no thankyou


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> thats pissed on my cornflakes then!


Does the username not give you a slight clue :lol:


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Does the username not give you a slight clue :lol:


thought you might of been from london zoo!


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## Gragface (Oct 8, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> are you for real??i dont like animals being killed for fun....i dont need to read about that on the internetdo you have an opinion on kids starving in ethopia????oooohhh no you cant have...youve never been there or starved......its a ridiculous arguement.


Surely when it comes to shoots its not such a black and white issue as killing for fun = wrong. I mean lots of different factors make it fun rather then just aimlessly killing for no real reason other then it being fun.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> thought you might of been from london zoo!


No, it's a literal translation of one of my dog's KC names, Lala Tau 

Don't even get me started on Zoos!


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> i dont need to of been on a shoot to hold my opinion....


So its an ignorant opinion then


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> No, it's a literal translation of one of my dog's KC names, Lala Tau
> 
> Don't even get me started on Zoos!


let sleeping lions lie now :lol: dont start the zoo thingy


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elzz said:


> let sleeping lions lie now :lol: dont start the zoo thingy


Ehem, everything I've posted has been from personal experience or knowledge, none of it was a lie  

(purposeful play on words there btw)


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Ehem, everything I've posted has been from personal experience or knowledge, none of it was a lie
> 
> (purposeful play on words there btw)


you little minx  
clever lion


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

grandad said:


> So its an ignorant opinion then


why is that?i dont like animals being killed for fun..whats ignorant about that....please dont add your own bits...just what ive written.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> so do you think its fun to kill animals.....is it ok to kill for entertainment?yes or no?????


is killing on a PS4 entertainment?


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

grandad said:


> is killing on a PS4 entertainment?


i dont know...is it?


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Unless you put your ear to the ground, you won't hear the buffalo coming


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

grandad said:


> Unless you put your ear to the ground, you won't hear the buffalo coming


thanks for that


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Albert, what experience or knowledge do you have of shoots and shooting?


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Albert, what experience or knowledge do you have of shoots and shooting?


none....zilch....ive never slagged it off....i made a statement...nowhere did i mention shooting.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> none....zilch....ive never slagged it off....i made a statement...nowhere did i mention shooting.


No, but you have the perception that it's based around killing just for fun, which isn't the case.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> Surely when it comes to shoots its not such a black and white issue as killing for fun = wrong. I mean lots of different factors make it fun rather then just aimlessly killing for no real reason other then it being fun.


...isn't it ? - you know I'm really struggling to think of one SINGLE reason when killing for fun does not = WRONG 

Yes we kill aniimals to eat - but Pheasants are not reared to eat - the prime motivation for game shooting is NOT meat - if it were then pheasants would simply be killed in the factory farms where they are raised - ( we have a burial pit two fields away from our house full of the surplus dead bodies of shot birds ) - no - the motivation is to use living sentient creatures as shooting practice - now HOW is this right ?

answer me this - do you really think it's OK to make the death of an animal central to the enjoyment of your hobby ?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Bijou said:


> ...isn't it ? - you know I'm really struggling to think of one SINGLE reason when killing for fun does not = WRONG
> 
> Yes we kill aniimals to eat - but Pheasants are not reared to eat - the prime motivation for game shooting is NOT meat - if it were then pheasants would simply be killed in the factory farms where they are raised - ( we have a burial pit two fields away from our house full of the surplus dead bodies of shot birds ) - no - the motivation is to use living sentient creatures as shooting practice - now HOW is this RIGHT ?
> 
> answer me this - do you really think it's OK to make the death of an animal central to the enjoyment of your hobby ?


The prime motivation for any form of rearing animals relies on it being financially viable. There are good and bad farmers, and there are good and bad shoots, and there are good and bad pet owners, tarring all with one brush is incredibly discriminatory.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> No, but you have the perception that it's based around killing just for fun, which isn't the case.


why is it called a sport then???????


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Bijou said:


> ...isn't it ? - you know I'm really struggling to think of one SINGLE reason when killing for fun does not = WRONG
> 
> Yes we kill aniimals to eat - but Pheasants are not reared to eat - the prime motivation for game shooting is NOT meat - if it were then pheasants would simply be killed in the factory farms where they are raised - ( we have a burial pit two fields away from our house full of the surplus dead bodies of shot birds ) - no - the motivation is to use living sentient creatures as shooting practice - now HOW is this right ?
> 
> answer me this - do you really think it's OK to make the death of an animal central to the enjoyment of your hobby ?


Got any pictures of that?
Keep hearing about these but never seen one


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> why is it called a sport then???????


Because shooting is a sport in itself, and the same principles apply to shooting game.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Why is darts considered a sport? :confused1:


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Because shooting is a sport in itself, and the same principles apply to shooting game.


look i dont agree ith killing for fun...you clearly do.....i find that strange...and think there is somehing wrong with those that do...


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

I do not hunt....I cannot...but dogs are dogs...and cannot imagine why take on dogs?...
Not their fault surely?


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> The prime motivation for any form of rearing animals relies on it being financially viable. There are good and bad farmers, and there are good and bad shoots, and there are good and bad pet owners, tarring all with one brush is incredibly discriminatory.


...that's not an answer to my question ....do YOU think it's right to make the death of an animal central to the enjoyment of your* hobby ? *


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Bijou said:


> ...isn't it ? - you know I'm really struggling to think of one SINGLE reason when killing for fun does not = WRONG
> 
> Yes we kill aniimals to eat - but Pheasants are not reared to eat - the prime motivation for game shooting is NOT meat - if it were then pheasants would simply be killed in the factory farms where they are raised - ( we have a burial pit two fields away from our house full of the surplus dead bodies of shot birds ) - no - the motivation is to use living sentient creatures as shooting practice - now HOW is this right ?
> 
> answer me this - do you really think it's OK to make the death of an animal central to the enjoyment of your hobby ?


Me & my OH go sea fishing occassionally. It's a lovely day out (mainly), it's exciting when you get a bite, nerve wracking bringing them in at times then delight when you land your catch.

The fish do die obviously (we kill them wonce landed so they don't writhe around suffocating for ages btw) but none are wasted, all are taken home & eaten.

The prime motivation for fishing is not the end result either but is an enjoyable day out, relaxing in the sun (hopefully!), a bit of peace & quiet, taking in all the other animals that are around, etc.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> look i dont agree ith killing for fun...you clearly do.....i find that strange...and think there is somehing wrong with those that do...


You're very wrong in that assumption, I don't agree with killing for fun, but you obviously have a different perception of killing for fun than I do.

A shoot is, or should be, based around mutual respect for the quarry, and tales of the bird that got away, are told with as much enthusiasm as the high bird that was shot. People enjoy shooting, because they enjoy being part of the food chain, for those that eat meat, I personally think it shows the greatest respect if you can kill and prepare your own food in the most humane way possible. I also think society has so far removed us from this part of preparing animals to eat, that we have a very disney view on these sort of issues, and are willing to condemn one lifestyle, but ignore other lifestyles that are patently downright cruel, all because it fits in with the skewed ideals of our modern society.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Bijou said:


> ...that's not an answer to my question ....do YOU think it's right to make the death of an animal central to the enjoyment of your* hobby ? *


You obviously have a skewed perspective of shooting, it's not a hobby for many, it's employment and a way of life.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> You obviously have a skewed perspective of shooting, it's not a hobby for many, it's employment and a way of life.


...for a minority it's employment - those that pay for the privilege of amassing their bag of dead birds do it as a social and 'fun' day out - it's not how they earn their money it's what they do as a hobby -

and don't make me laugh with this nonsense about 'respecting' the quarry - you make it sound like a game of chess and as if the poor things can somehow out wit the barrage of guns - these are NOT wild birds but battery reared and with about as much chance as your average battery reared hen of avoiding death


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> Got any pictures of that?
> Keep hearing about these but never seen one


.............................


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Bijou said:


> ...for a minority it's employment - those that pay for the privilege of amassing their bag of dead birds do it as a social and 'fun' day out - it's not how they earn their money it's what they do as a hobby -
> 
> and don't make me laugh with this nonsense about 'respecting' the quarry - you make it sound like a game of chess and as if the poor things can somehow out wit the barrage of guns - these are NOT wild birds but battery reared and with about as much chance as your average battery reared hen of avoiding death


Actually, there is evidence that game birds do evolve to fly lower, therefore avoiding being shot, so no, it's not nonsense. I think it's partridge that have been studied most doing this. A barrage of guns, good Lord you make me laugh, most shoots have about 9 guns max, wow, what a barage when you get 100 birds fly over, and how many are shot?? I think you're getting employment mixed up here, there are those employed to ensure a shoot is viable, and there are those who pay for the privilege of shooting, two very different things 

Wow, what an attitude, don't make me laugh with your small knowledge of one type of shoot, and what a load of b*****ks about pheasants having the same chance as a battery reared hen, shows a complete lack of knowledge about the birds involved. But then again, battery hens are all cannibals so they would probably have eaten each other before they took off even!

The fact that you're so disdainful of people who genuinely earn a living is incredibly disrespectful, but I suspect you just don't care, because your skewed perspective is obviously right, at least to you!


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

IF you were a farmer and raised your animals for the food chain the first and foremost ethic that you have is the WELFARE of the animal. Doesn't matter what that animal is. The second most part of rearing stock isThat means that whilst it is in your charge, it has a GOOD life. The way it is killed. be it in an abbatoir or out on a shoot. IT HAS TO BE QUICK AND IT HAS TO BE CLEAN. And I can go through the different methods, the organisation, the administration, the finacial implications etc etc. 
The TRUTH of the matter is that in order for the farmers to survive, and the commercial pressure on the farming community to produce cheap food is forcing them into factory farming and not the other way around. Famrers are selling up every week and the commercial enterprises that are buyinh them up have a completely diiferent outlook on famring. SADLY, It is the local farmer, who stands by traditional methods, that diversify's, that is creative and can earn a living by doing so, is unfortunatley becoming the minority. Game rearing and shooting is just one way of bringing food to the table of the masses. 
There are choices of coures, you can buy a game bird in a supermarket that has been intenssivley farmed, just like a chicken. that has no life whatsoever and has NO CHANCE at survival or you can buy a game bird, reared in the wild, toally organic and has a 40% chance of survival. the farmer that has raised the bird and given it a good life, and spent all year giving it that good life, gets a price of between £25 - £35 a bird, when someone shoots it, But when he sells it to the game dealer he'll get 50p for it. The same bird you'll pay £4 for in a supermarket. Itis a commodity yes, it's a food, yes, it's a wa of life, yes, it brings money into the coutryside, yes, it helps the country side, yes. Perhaps we should knock down the millions of acres of woodland and plant corn, How much nature and natural habitat would that sustain? Please get real.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Bijou said:


> .............................


So that one picture proves that all shoots do this, and all are as bad as the one you have experience of? I don't know of one shoot that does this, and I agree, it's absolutely disgraceful. But what I don't agree with, is the way this seems to you to mean all shoots are just as bad. It's like a case of animal cruelty proving all pet owners are bad. Or one farmer who mistreats their animals proving all farmers are uncaring and cruel. Absolute rubbish!


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Bijou said:


> .............................


The image that you posted is one of the first Google images to come up when you search for "burial pit pheasant". 
Make of that what you will, everybody else...


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Bijou said:


> .............................


They are poults, have you a game farm near you?
Have you reported it as it is illegal to do that


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

So this is your picture on this site?

Animal Aid: A law unto themselves - the game shooting industry under the spotlight (part 2)


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> The image that you posted is one of the first Google images to come up when you search for "burial pit pheasant".
> Make of that what you will, everybody else...


Thank you for pointing that out 

So just to make it clear Bijou, is this a photograph you took or one you're using to try to illustrate a point!


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> The fact that you're so disdainful of people who genuinely earn a living is incredibly disrespectful,


...yep you're right - I have absoloutely NO respect for those that take part in such sports ....we have no right to inflict pain and death on animals simply to entertain ourselves - and no matter how you dress it up that's all game shooting truly is ...


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

This is a farm I did some consultancy work on when it was a start up. Check it out. Have a look at the agrarian renaissance page especially. IMAGINE A Country where this type of farm was at the centre of every community.

And by the way you can get game in season. In the traditional way.

churchfarmardeley.co.uk


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Bijou said:


> ...yep you're right - I have absoloutely NO respect for those that take part in such sports ....we have no right to inflict pain and death on animals simply to entertain ourselves - and no matter how you dress it up that's all game shooting truly is ...


So you're not willing to respond regarding the photograph? Whether or not you respect someone elses opinion or way of life, to try and pass off a photograph as something you are showing as personal evidence of a shoot being involved in mismanagement and cruelty, isn't really fair, or honest.


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

Bijou said:


> ...that's not an answer to my question ....do YOU think it's right to make the death of an animal central to the enjoyment of your* hobby ? *


I'm curious, you obviously have strong veiws on this matter, and I applaud you for them even though I may not agree. Tell me. Are you a 'Vegan, is everything you eat free from animal byproducts, I take it you obviously dont wear leather in any form. I assume you're a lady,I might be wrong of course,if so I apologise, if you are I'm sure you go to great lengths to buy the beauty without cruelty cosmetics., and obviously you would refuse any and all medical drugs and proceedures that had ben tested on animals. Because, I'm afraid that if you cant answer yes to all of these points you're being just a little bit hypoctitical dont you think.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

In that picture that was posted it looks as if there is a used bottle of Baycox, indicating that the poults had had an outbreak of coccidiosis, for which they were being/had been treated but some were lost due to disease.
That picture has no baring on even the article is was linked to or any cruelty as far as I can see.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

JennyClifford said:


> In that picture that was posted it looks as if there is a used bottle of Baycox, indicating that the poults had had an outbreak of coccidiosis, for which they were being/had been treated but some were lost due to disease.
> That picture has no baring on even the article is was linked to or any cruelty as far as I can see.


Great sleuthing! 

Can I just say, that one photograph, taken out of context, shows just how much people can completely see a false perspective of anything.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> So just to make it clear Bijou, is this a photograph you took or one you're using to try to illustrate a point!


LOL ....it's 8 pm at night of COURSE it's not a picture Ive taken - why would you think it was ? - I was asked to supply a photo to prove that the dumping of dead birds goes on so I pulled one off the web - it's not difficult to find the proof that this goes on - try it yourself !

and while you're about it take a look at some of the other horrible things that goes on in the name of your 'sport '


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Bijou said:


> LOL ....it's 8 pm at night of COURSE it's not a picture Ive taken - why would you think it was ? - I was asked to supply a photo to prove that the dumping of dead birds goes on so I pulled one off the web - it's not difficult to find the proof that this goes on - try it yourself !
> 
> and while you're about it take a look at some of the other horrible things that goes on in the name of your 'sport '
> 
> The Gamebird Industry: It&#39;s Not a Game. It&#39;s a Disgrace. - YouTube


So it's not your photo, and it's possibly a photograph taken completely out of context, but you're willing to use this to prove that all shoots are cruel, and all those involved with shooting are cruel.

What does the time of evening have to do with it, you could have taken the photograph earlier today, yesterday, or was google down at those times


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Bijou said:


> LOL ....it's 8 pm at night of COURSE it's not a picture Ive taken - why would you think it was ? - I was asked to supply a photo to prove that the dumping of dead birds goes on so I pulled one off the web - it's not difficult to find the proof that this goes on - try it yourself !
> 
> and while you're about it take a look at some of the other horrible things that goes on in the name of your 'sport '
> 
> The Gamebird Industry: It&#39;s Not a Game. It&#39;s a Disgrace. - YouTube


I don't want to get involved either way, but I have to say, the way you are going about proving your point isn't very good. You presented a photo of a pile of dead birds. Horrible, yes. Any evidence that it is anything to do with what is being discussed here, no!
And as was pointed out above, this could well have been dead birds who died from some disease or other.
I think you need better evidence :frown:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> I don't want to get involved either way, but I have to say, the way you are going about proving your point isn't very good. You presented a photo of a pile of dead birds. Horrible, yes. Any evidence that it is anything to do with what is being discussed here, no!
> And as was pointed out above, this could well have been dead birds who died from some disease or other.
> I think you need better evidence :frown:


Exactly! And I stand by what I said earlier, any shoot that does this to game birds that have been shot, needs reporting, it's vile! Thankfully, I don't know of anyone involved with shooting that would do this sort of thing, I did come across the odd farmer years ago, when I worked for The National Trust, who would dump dead livestock down holes, some of them ran tea rooms


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Bijou said:


> LOL ....it's 8 pm at night of COURSE it's not a picture Ive taken - why would you think it was ? - I was asked to supply a photo to prove that the dumping of dead birds goes on so I pulled one off the web - it's not difficult to find the proof that this goes on - try it yourself !
> 
> and while you're about it take a look at some of the other horrible things that goes on in the name of your 'sport '
> 
> The Gamebird Industry: It's Not a Game. It's a Disgrace. - YouTube


So, you have a pit near you and you have no photographic evidence to support it? And you haven't reported it? 
I cannot find any reference to Sir Edward Dashwood, being involved in anything illegal apart from that article. Can you?

Do you know where that footage was taken?
I believe it wasn't in this country


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Exactly! And I stand by what I said earlier, any shoot that does this to game birds that have been shot, needs reporting, it's vile! Thankfully, I don't know of anyone involved with shooting that would do this sort of thing, I did come across the odd farmer years ago, when I worked for The National Trust, who would dump dead livestock down holes, some of them ran tea rooms


It was legal to do so not that long ago


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> I'm curious, you obviously have strong veiws on this matter, and I applaud you for them even though I may not agree. Tell me. Are you a 'Vegan, is everything you eat free from animal byproducts, I take it you obviously dont wear leather in any form. I assume you're a lady,I might be wrong of course,if so I apologise, if you are I'm sure you go to great lengths to buy the beauty without cruelty cosmetics., and obviously you would refuse any and all medical drugs and proceedures that had ben tested on animals. Because, I'm afraid that if you cant answer yes to all of these points you're being just a little bit hypoctitical dont you think.


..no Pete - the hypocrisy would be if I made the killing of the animals that supply my food etc a source of entertainment - I am country born and bred - I live way out in the sticks and I raise my own chicken and ducks for eggs and meat - yes we kill them for the pot as quickly and humanely as we can but I'll tell you this - I do not and will never kill for 'sport' - for 'fun' or for entertainment and ultimately that's all that game shooting is - I've seen those bored bankers eager to spend their bonuses on a days mass slaughter to alleviate the boredom of their London lives - and you want me to *respect *those that support such unthinking cruelty ? ? .....


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Bijou said:


> ..no Pete - the hypocrisy would be if I made the killing of the animals that supply my food etc a source of entertainment - I am country born and bred - I live way out in the sticks and I raise my own chicken and ducks for eggs and meat - yes we kill them for the pot as quickly and humanely as we can but I'll tell you this - I do not and will never kill for 'sport' - for 'fun' or for entertainment and ultimately that's all that game shooting is - I've seen those bored bankers eager to spend their bonuses on a days mass slaughter to alleviate the boredom of their London lives - and you want me to *respect *those that support such unthinking cruelty ? ? .....


So now every gun on a shoot is a bored banker?


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## Georgee (Sep 10, 2011)

Re the original post having drank and occasionally worked in many country pubs over the past 40 years cannot ever imagine this scenario ever happened, does just not ring true


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Bijou said:


> ..no Pete - the hypocrisy would be if I made the killing of the animals that supply my food etc a source of entertainment - I am country born and bred - I live way out in the sticks and I raise my own chicken and ducks for eggs and meat - yes we kill them for the pot as quickly and humanely as we can but I'll tell you this - I do not and will never kill for 'sport' - for 'fun' or for entertainment and ultimately that's all that game shooting is - I've seen those bored bankers eager to spend their bonuses on a days mass slaughter to alleviate the boredom of their London lives - and you want me to *respect *those that support such unthinking cruelty ? ? .....


you will never convince them,theyre blinkered,not even listening to what you say.....its not animals being killed your against...its the killing for fun!:mad2:


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> you will never convince them,theyre blinkered,not even listening to what you say.....its not animals being killed your against...its the killing for fun!:mad2:


While I believe yours is Albert, I do believe others are more worried about the fact that those that shoot may have more money than them


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> you will never convince them,theyre blinkered,not even listening to what you say.....its not animals being killed your against...its the killing for fun!:mad2:


Says he with no personal knowledge of shoots or shooting, might I suggest google


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> So now every gun on a shoot is a bored banker?


nope but at £25 for each bird shot each they've certainly got more money than sense !! ( or compassion )

look stop trying over egg my statements - I was asked to provide a photo of dumped birds - this I did - if you choose not to accept it as proof that's your perogative - I can only state what I've seen to be true -


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Says he with no personal knowledge of shoots or shooting, might I suggest *google*


...which has proved very useful in the history of this thread


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Bijou said:


> nope but at £25 for each bird shot each they've certainly got more money than sense !! ( or compassion )
> 
> look stop trying over egg my statements - I was asked to provide a photo of dumped birds - this I did - if you choose not to accept it as proof that's your perogative - I can only state what I've seen to be true -


Did you google the image? If so, does that count as evidence? Even though it appears you can't provide a context for the photograph.

Try grouse, they are the most expensive. And thank you, the OH shoots, he certainly doesn't lack compassion, has a great bond with his dogs, and couldn't care less about the anti view, because the vast majority, as he puts it, don't have a clue.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Bijou said:


> nope but at £25 for each bird shot each they've certainly got more money than sense !! ( or compassion )
> 
> look stop trying over egg my statements - I was asked to provide a photo of dumped birds - this I did - if you choose not to accept it as proof that's your perogative - I can only state what I've seen to be true -


:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Thanks for the laugh tonight


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Says he with no personal knowledge of shoots or shooting, might I suggest google


let me understand this....to dislike people killing animals for fun...i have to have an in depth knowledge of shooting?


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> I do believe others are more worried about the fact that those that shoot may have more money than them


...oh now this is really bizaarre.....nope I'm really NOT jealous of those that can afford to shoot birds for fun


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> let me understand this....to dislike people killing animals for fun...i have to have an in depth knowledge of shooting?


How do you know they are killing for fun, as you put it, unless you understand shooting?


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Never been involved in country sports, farming or probably killed for the table. What a bank of experience you are drawing from. Of course you are entitled to your opinions but don't expect many to respect it. 
As you are so against these sports and know they go on have you ever actively sabotaged the participants or petition for the closure or wrote to your MP or protested or wrote to a newspaper or gone on radio to talk about it?

As an active fisherman I have probably done more for wildlife than you will even have done in your own garden. 


Next time I'm going fishing for my table or friend's table who pay me to get them fish I'll let you know because I enjoy killing what I take, knowing I have brought joy and contentment to myself and others who will feast on what I provide, feel free to come along and have a go or whatever, I'll even tell you the time, day and location. 

Funny how fishing is the most popular hobby in the UK.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> How do you know they are killing for fun, as you put it, unless you understand shooting?


how many times!!!:mad2:i never mentioned shooting,or any so called sport...i made a statement!


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

hutch6 said:


> Never been involved in country sports, farming or probably killed for the table. What a bank of experience you are drawing from. Of course you are entitled to your opinions but don't expect many to respect it.
> As you are so against these sports and know they go on have you ever actively sabotaged the participants or petition for the closure or wrote to your MP or protested or wrote to a newspaper or gone on radio to talk about it?
> 
> As an active fisherman I have probably done more for wildlife than you will even have done in your own garden.
> ...


when the countryside alliance had their day in london,i engaged in a bit of sport myself!!!very enjoyable


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> Did you google the image? If so, does that count as evidence?


..sigh ....yes I googled the photo - someone ( forget who ) said they had never heard of this practise and would like to see photographic evidence of it - so I obliged with ( guess what ) photographic evidence - note I never said it was photographic evidence of the shoot near my home ...but there you go - either you accept it or not - frankly I'm losing the will to live .....there appears no middle ground here - YOU think killing for entertainment is fine and dandy - i think it's abhorrent and sick - don't think we'll ever agree


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> when the countryside alliance had their day in london,i engaged in a bit of sport myself!!!very enjoyable


:lol: now play nice


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## Gragface (Oct 8, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> how many times!!!:mad2:i never mentioned shooting,or any so called sport...i made a statement!


A statement about how killing animals for fun is wrong in a thread about shoots and shooting.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So now every gun on a shoot is a bored banker?


I just told my husband (he shoots & fishes, I don't, but I respect those that do) that he's a bored banker.
He LOL'd


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Gragface said:


> A statement about how killing animals for fun is wrong in a thread about shoots and shooting.


not if people enjoy it its not!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just for Noushka, it'd be nice if all birds destined for the table had accommodation like this, nice that the BASC is at the forefront of pushing for this for game birds, a shame there isn't another organisation doing the same for poultry destined simply to be raised and killed for the table
> 
> BASC welcomes Defra decision on laying cages.


thanks for this SL, but i found more updated info and it appears that, despite BASC trying their best to get better welfare for game birds, the Countryside Alliance amongst others, who were against it, lobbied this flamin government and got their way...Wow so many more posts to read lol

DEFRA withdraws the Gamebird Code | Shooting times


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Killing animals for fun is what Jeffery Dahmer did before he progressed to killing people for fun. 

I don't think hunting, shooting or fishing have much to do with taking pleasure in the death of an animal, but how someone who hunts, shoots, or fishes can explain that I don't know.

I'm a vegetarian and I don't shoot, but I would probably be very proud of myself if I could shoot and could give my raw fed dog something I'd shot and prepared for her myself. I find the thought of intensive farming practices totally abhorrent, I know I don't need meat as part of my diet, I've survived well over 40 years without it and I don't think I could raise my own sheep, pig or chickens and kill them for her, but I do think I could take pride in the shoot.

They're coming to take me away, aha.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

I'll happily list animals I would kill for fun and I mean fun.

Flies - especially bluebottles as with a dog that can't clean his back end very well they are a risk even if I clean him every day.

Slugs & Snails - they eat my veg.

Mice - pests who eat my veg too and can cause serious damage to your house. Use a cat for that but I've no issue killing them if I get the chance.

Corvids - excluding jays I could blast them to high heaven with the damage they do to garden birds and are a reason for the drastic decline in some species.

Mink - I would happily jump for joy and dance in their bodies for the damage they have done to our river systems and waterways and why are they loose? Oh yeah, animal rights activist pricks.

Rabbits - already been mentioned on another thread. 

Zander - introduced to the river system and are raping the population if other species.

Zebra Mussels - don't get me started on these.

Signal crayfish - crippling young wild trout and salmon populations.

Ticks - need I say more?

Grey squirrels - become vermin and out compete our natives and birds for food.

Rats - more damage than mice.

Not a problem dispatching any of these at all and happily done with a smile.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I kill ticks, but how can it be fun!!?? Urghhh.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

hutch6 said:


> I'll happily list animals I would kill for fun and I mean fun.
> 
> Flies - especially bluebottles as with a dog that can't clean his back end very well they are a risk even if I clean him every day.
> 
> ...


well done mate,must make you feel good!....were you bullied at school...out of interest?trying to uderstand your type.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> I'll happily list animals I would kill for fun and I mean fun.
> 
> Flies - especially bluebottles as with a dog that can't clean his back end very well they are a risk even if I clean him every day.
> 
> ...


You forgot one verminous species on there, that is actually responsible for introducing many (not all, I hasten to add) of these aliens to this country.
Man


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

ok don't mean to throw fuel on the bonfire but all those against shooting, are you against all sports so horse racing as obviously the horses can be killed, or greyhound racing or for that matter motor bike racing and indy 500 racing after those two poor men were killed recently? I'm not trying to be funny but animals and people for that matter loose their lives in sports across the board, or sustain serious life altering injuries so surely you should take the same attitude across all sports?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Bijou said:


> ..sigh ....yes I googled the photo - someone ( forget who ) said they had never heard of this practise and would like to see photographic evidence of it - so I obliged with ( guess what ) photographic evidence - note I never said it was photographic evidence of the shoot near my home ...but there you go - either you accept it or not - frankly I'm losing the will to live .....there appears no middle ground here - YOU think killing for entertainment is fine and dandy - i think it's abhorrent and sick - don't think we'll ever agree


So let's cut to the chase, you were asked for personal evidence of the practice of shooting, and mass graves near you, as you live next to a shoot. Instead of posting personal evidence, you googled an image, and thought this was acceptable, even though it's nothing to do with the shoot next to you, nor bears any context to the situation with said shoot?

But that's ok, because the photograph fits!

Killing for entertainment - does that include the Sunday roast that entertains several guests and feeds them all?


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

albert 1970 said:


> well done mate,must make you feel good!....were you bullied at school...out of interest?trying to uderstand your type.


No. I sorted the bullies out, can't stand bullies but I have an understanding of the effect man has on nature and how it throws it all out of balance. Go figure that out.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

LexiLou2 said:


> ok don't mean to throw fuel on the bonfire but all those against shooting, are you against all sports so horse racing as obviously the horses can be killed, or greyhound racing or for that matter motor bike racing and indy 500 racing after those two poor men were killed recently? I'm not trying to be funny but animals and people for that matter loose their lives in sports across the board, or sustain serious life altering injuries so surely you should take the same attitude across all sports?


is this a serious question?


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

hutch6 said:


> No. I sorted the bullies out, can't stand bullies but I have an understanding of the effect man has on nature and how it throws it all out of balance. Go figure that out.


why do you enjoy killing small animals??genuine question....are you insecure about yourself?


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

simplysardonic said:


> You forgot one verminous species on there, that is actually responsible for introducing many (not all, I hasten to add) of these aliens to this country.
> Man


You reeeeeeeally don't want to get me going about what should be done with man, if some of you get this worked up over a little minor thing like country sports you'll not sleep


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

deadly serious, you are saying you don't like shooting because it is killing animals for human entertainment, well horse racing is for human entertainment, so is greyhound racing, pigeon racing, motorcycle racing etc etc so why take one attitude to one sport and a different attitude to another.

The birds i admit don't ask to be killed but neither did those poor men, and yes they choose to race but they don't choose to die.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> why do you enjoy killing small animals??genuine question....are you insecure about yourself?


What an offensive question, why on earth have you got such a chip on your shoulder, is it years of listening to people whittering over your shoulder, while you listen to the uninformed on the radio?


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

LexiLou2 said:


> deadly serious, you are saying you don't like shooting because it is killing animals for human entertainment, well horse racing is for human entertainment, so is greyhound racing, pigeon racing, motorcycle racing etc etc so why take one attitude to one sport and a different attitude to another.
> 
> The birds i admit don't ask to be killed but neither did those poor men, and yes they choose to race but they don't choose to die.


not the same is it lol...the men know the risks,and enjoy it...shouldnt imagine the birds do lol!


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> You reeeeeeeally don't want to get me going about what should be done with man, if some of you get this worked up over a little minor thing like country sports you'll not sleep


I'm all ears, sounds like an entrancing bedtime story


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Ok so are you anti horse racing, anti grey hound racing then? Infact i know of someone whose dog broke his leg and had to have it amputated doing flyball so are you anti flyball?


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

LexiLou2 said:


> deadly serious, you are saying you don't like shooting because it is killing animals for human entertainment, well horse racing is for human entertainment, so is greyhound racing, pigeon racing, motorcycle racing etc etc so why take one attitude to one sport and a different attitude to another.
> 
> The birds i admit don't ask to be killed but neither did those poor men, and yes they choose to race but they don't choose to die.


Ignoring the Indy and gp as they are partaken by choice and awareness of risk, I agree with the point of dog and horse racing. Dog racing is particularly unethical and many many dogs suffer for the greed of the bookies and entertainment of the public... So seems valid with comparison to hunting for sport


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

grandad said:


> Perhaps we should knock down the millions of acres of woodland and plant corn, How much nature and natural habitat would that sustain? Please get real.


actually its growing grain to feed livestock that is doing the harm to the environment, using US statistics, Of all the agricultural land in the U.S., nearly 80 percent is used in some way to raise animalsthat's roughly half of the total land mass of the U.S....More than 260 million acres of U.S. forest have been cleared to create cropland to grow grain to feed farmed animals.

It takes up to 16 pounds of grain to produce just 1 pound of meat.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

LexiLou2 said:


> Ok so are you anti horse racing, anti grey hound racing then? Infact i know of someone whose dog broke his leg and had to have it amputated doing flyball so are you anti flyball?


to be fair not that im agreeing with anything or disagreeing they dont race horses to kill them


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

LexiLou2 said:


> Ok so are you anti horse racing, anti grey hound racing then? Infact i know of someone whose dog broke his leg and had to have it amputated doing flyball so are you anti flyball?


tbh i dont know enough about them....what will say is if animals suffer in these sports,id be against them.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> tbh i dont know enough about them....what will say is if animals suffer in these sports,id be against them.


a lot of the dogs do


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

They don't race to kill but they don't race with the animals wellbeing as priority, and in many cases have little regard for their welfare upon retirement. Supporting these sports is supporting those ethics... Is that better than hunting for sport?


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

albert 1970 said:


> why do you enjoy killing small animals??genuine question....are you insecure about yourself?


Not at all Dr Freud. They all cause damage to things which have a knock on effect on other species, many are not supposed to be in our ecosystem an have no natural predators or control and I don't want my veg being eaten or my property damaged.
I could use poison but I'd rather give them a fast death than a slow painful one with rodents and with slugs and snails I collect and put in bowls for the hedgehogs. With other things I do other constructive things for the benefit of other species including those they affect when they are alive.

I was an avid twitcher as a child, camped out with my dad to see foxes, bats, owls and deer. Spent my summer holidays on farms, always had pets, wanted to be a vet until a life event changed that, I rescue dogs, have dove into icey water to rescue waterfowl with broken wings and have often had injured stuff in boxes in my house which I've held vigil over until I could get it to the relevant organisation.

Have fun analysing that 

Did criminal psychology when I was a probation service project worker too an sat across a table from allsorts of unsavoury characters.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Elzz said:


> a lot of the dogs do


didnt know that..always thought they were well looked after!


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

What Savahl said.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

See i can watch a hunt and I'm ok with it, lots of animals are bred to eat and I would rather my food had as natural a life as possible before been eaten than a un natural maufactured life, i think hunts where they disregard their kill not wrong, more wasteful.....I (stupidly) watched the grand national last year and had nightmares for weeks afterwards of that white sheet over a dead horse that had broken it's neck falling....the horse was still laid on the race course and the race continued around it!!!


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> didnt know that..always thought they were well looked after!


I think a lot are while racing.... But it's more about the dogs who don't make the grade and what happens post retirement. Not always, but like anything, like hunting, there are bad eggs in the sport. There are of course good in the industry, along with the abhorrent


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

simplysardonic said:


> I'm all ears, sounds like an entrancing bedtime story


I'd love to but I'll probably get shot


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Savahl said:


> I think a lot are while racing.... But it's more about the dogs who don't make the grade and what happens post retirement. Not always, but like anything, like hunting, there are bad eggs in the sport. There are of course good in the industry, along with the abhorrent


your right...its just something ive never really thought about...smething else for me to:mad2:now:mad2:


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> your right...its just something ive never really thought about...smething else for me to:mad2:now:mad2:


oh god.... hes gonna be all angry now


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Savahl said:


> I think a lot are while racing.... But it's more about the dogs who don't make the grade and what happens post retirement. Not always, but like anything, like hunting, there are bad eggs in the sport. There are of course good in the industry, along with the abhorrent


Thats the thing there are good and bad in all sports and that includes shooting. I know a man who trains and breeds race horses, one of his horses broke its leg, now I may not have got this completely right but basically upon breaking its leg he was given a decision, the horse would never race again so he could have it shot on the spot or fixed and put to pasture, he repaired and it is now a companion type horse, but how many trainers/owners would have shot the horse as it could no longer bring in money??

Good and bad in every sport.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> didnt know that..always thought they were well looked after!


It seems you think a few things, but what real knowledge backs those thoughts up?


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> Not at all Dr Freud. They all cause damage to things which have a knock on effect on other species, many are not supposed to be in our ecosystem an have no natural predators or control and I don't want my veg being eaten or my property damaged.
> I could use poison but I'd rather give them a fast death than a slow painful one with rodents and with slugs and snails I collect and put in bowls for the hedgehogs. With other things I do other constructive things for the benefit of other species including those they affect when they are alive.
> 
> I was an avid twitcher as a child, camped out with my dad to see foxes, bats, owls and deer. Spent my summer holidays on farms, always had pets, wanted to be a vet until a life event changed that, I rescue dogs, have dove into icey water to rescue waterfowl with broken wings and have often had injured stuff in boxes in my house which I've held vigil over until I could get it to the relevant organisation.
> ...


See, much as I don't like the killing of anything, not even dirty rats (OK, especially not dirty rats seeing as I own 16 of my own!), I appreciate that pest control is necessary, as many of the introduced species have been dreadfully invasive. A clean head shot is preferable to a slow lingering death in a glue trap or from poisoning



albert 1970 said:


> didnt know that..always thought they were well looked after!


No, there are many that really aren't


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> It seems you think a few things, but what real knowledge backs those thoughts up?


i know my feelings....not gona keep saying the same thing...your not listening!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

this was all over our local news the other day that North Yorkshire was the worst place for crimes against birds of prey and owls,... Hen Harrier, Red Kite,Goshawke, Peregrines are being shot,poisoned,trapped on the North York moors and Yorkshire dales, where the grouse moors are. So my question to 'sportsmen' is should they be boycotting these shoots? infact should hunters everywhere only be supporting shoots with healthy unpersecuted populations of raptors?

The Independent | Environment News - Latest News on Environment Issues and Debates


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

an opinion be it formed on facts or not, be it formed from experience or not, be it formed from up bringing or not.... IT IS STILL AN OPINION and we all have a right to that... i dont think we need to dissect it at every turn to be honest 
IMO only


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> i know my feelings....not gona keep saying the same thing...your not listening!


And neither are you, and as much as I've elaborated, you've come back to one thing, you don't agree with killing for fun, neither do I, neither does anyone I know involved with a shoot. So, perhaps you'd like to expand on what you know about shooting and your own personal experience.

Or, in the case of Bijou, just google


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> And neither are you, and as much as I've elaborated, you've come back to one thing, you don't agree with killing for fun, neither do I, neither does anyone I know involved with a shoot. So, perhaps you'd like to expand on what you know about shooting and your own personal experience.
> 
> Or, in the case of Bijou, just google


ve told you..i know nothng about shooting,never pretended too!iff people kill for fun on shoots,theyre morons....if they dont,theyre not...easy!:thumbup:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> ve told you..i know nothng about shooting,never pretended too!iff people kill for fun on shoots,theyre morons....if they dont,theyre not...easy!:thumbup:


You know nowt about it, and are prepared to make an uninformed opinion and judgement, fair do's but don't complain the next time someone posts a sweeping statement about taxi drivers :thumbup:


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> this was all over our local news the other day that North Yorkshire was the worst place for crimes against birds of prey and owls,... Hen Harrier, Red Kite,Goshawke, Peregrines are being shot,poisoned,trapped on the North York moors and Yorkshire dales, where the grouse moors are. So my question to 'sportsmen' is should they be boycotting these shoots? infact should hunters everywhere only be supporting shoots with healthy unpersecuted populations of raptors?
> 
> The Independent | Environment News - Latest News on Environment Issues and Debates


Yes because owls will only turn to birds if it is a poor year for voles i.e. wet, mild winters and burning of heather which the gamekeepers do themselves.
Hen harriers are rare.
Kites will scavenge 95% if their diet through road kill and dead livestock.
Peregrines are endangered but on the increase.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> You know nowt about it, and are prepared to make an uninformed opinion and judgement, fair do's but don't complain the next time someone posts a sweeping statement about taxi drivers :thumbup:


point out where ive made any sweeping statements about shooting


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> point out where ive made any sweeping statements about shooting


Point out where you haven't, as far as you're concerned, anyone involved in shooting is killing for fun, end of.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> this was all over our local news the other day that North Yorkshire was the worst place for crimes against birds of prey and owls,... Hen Harrier, Red Kite,Goshawke, Peregrines are being shot,poisoned,trapped on the North York moors and Yorkshire dales, where the grouse moors are. So my question to 'sportsmen' is should they be boycotting these shoots? infact should hunters everywhere only be supporting shoots with healthy unpersecuted populations of raptors?
> 
> The Independent | Environment News - Latest News on Environment Issues and Debates


There is nothing in that about prosecutions, it's only conjecture 
I'm quite sure that the majority of people that frequent shoots would not continue going if they knew that protected species were being killed or cruelty was allowed in any form.

This site may be of interest to you 
Illegal Killing of Birds of Prey


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Point out where you haven't, as far as you're concerned, anyone involved in shooting is killing for fun, end of.


ive never said that.....your just making things up now!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> ive never said that.....your just making things up now!


No, I'm asking a question, there's a difference.

And, so we can confirm, you have no personal knowledge of shooting, or shoots, and yet your opinion on shooting is valid without any qualification.

It'd be nice if you were a little more precise, for example:

'I have no idea how shoots or shooting game birds work, but I don't agree with it, and believe it to be unethical'


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> No, I'm asking a question, there's a difference.
> 
> And, so we can confirm, you have no personal knowledge of shooting, or shoots, and yet your opinion on shooting is valid without any qualification.
> 
> ...


i have no opinion on shooting whatsoever....i have no knowledge on shooting whatsoever.....if people shoot animals to kill them for fun....i think theyre morons,if they dont...i dont...is that clear enough!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> i have no opinion on shooting whatsoever....i have no knowledge on shooting whatsoever.....*if people shoot animals to kill them for fun*....i think theyre morons,if they dont...i dont...is that clear enough!


No knowledge, and yet that assumtion is there!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

hutch6 said:


> Yes because owls will only turn to birds if it is a poor year for voles i.e. wet, mild winters and burning of heather which the gamekeepers do themselves.
> Hen harriers are rare.
> Kites will scavenge 95% if their diet through road kill and dead livestock.
> Peregrines are endangered but on the increase.


ooh you agree with me



JennyClifford said:


> There is nothing in that about prosecutions, it's only conjecture
> I'm quite sure that the majority of people that frequent shoots would not continue going if they knew that protected species were being killed or cruelty was allowed in any form.
> 
> This site may be of interest to you
> Illegal Killing of Birds of Prey


hmm your link might be seen as a bit bias tho Jenny lol, surely you have to admit game keepers are the prime suspects on the grouse moors?

if you look on the internet theres tons of game keeper prosecutions....lord knows what the real toll on raptors is, most killings will go undetected.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> No knowledge, and yet that assumtion is there!


look up IF in the dictionary:mad2:


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> actually its growing grain to feed livestock that is doing the harm to the environment, using US statistics, Of all the agricultural land in the U.S., nearly 80 percent is used in some way to raise animalsthat's roughly half of the total land mass of the U.S....More than 260 million acres of U.S. forest have been cleared to create cropland to grow grain to feed farmed animals.
> 
> It takes up to 16 pounds of grain to produce just 1 pound of meat.


Not if they are grass fed.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> ooh you agree with me
> .


You sound surprised Noush, why?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> ooh you agree with me
> 
> hmm your link might be seen as a bit bias tho Jenny lol, surely you have to admit game keepers are the prime suspects on the grouse moors?
> 
> if you look on the internet theres tons of game keeper prosecutions....lord knows what the real toll on raptors is, most killings will go undetected.


The link wasn't to counter yours, it was just a link that I thought you may be interested in 
I've looked for prosecutions and to be honest could find nothing much 
Apparently, according to the RSPB Raptor deaths have fallen by almost one fifth.
I must say that I have found 3 bodies this year. Two Buzzards and one Tawny owl. None have been foul play as far as I know, all were juveniles and with the weather as it's been here, there has been a huge shortage of food


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> look up IF in the dictionary:mad2:


None of your accusatory posts are prefixed with an 'if', so why should mine be?



noushka05 said:


> if you look on the internet theres tons of game keeper prosecutions....lord knows what the real toll on raptors is, most killings will go undetected.


Sorry you still have this outdated view, it's one that many are happy to accept because the media feeds it to them, however, the article I posted earlier in the thread shows a much more current view, and is certainly not a one off.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

JennyClifford said:


> The link wasn't to counter yours, it was just a link that I thought you may be interested in
> I've looked for prosecutions and to be honest could find nothing much
> Apparently, according to the RSPB Raptor deaths have fallen by almost one fifth.
> I must say that I have found 3 bodies this year. Two Buzzards and one Tawny owl. None have been foul play as far as I know, all were juveniles and with the weather as it's been here, there has been a huge shortage of food


The OH brought me a young buzzard earlier in the year, to use as a still life, the poor thing had no muscle, breast bone prominent, and had most likely starved to death


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

hutch6 said:


> You sound surprised Noush, why?


i just thought everyone would think my brilliant idea wouldnt be that brillant i suppose



JennyClifford said:


> The link wasn't to counter yours, it was just a link that I thought you may be interested in
> I've looked for prosecutions and to be honest could find nothing much
> Apparently, according to the RSPB Raptor deaths have fallen by almost one fifth.
> I must say that I have found 3 bodies this year. Two Buzzards and one Tawny owl. None have been foul play as far as I know, all were juveniles and with the weather as it's been here, there has been a huge shortage of food


oh thanks for the link then i put some on here the other day, just google 'game keeper prosecuted'...theres more prosecutions in Scotland because they take wildlife crime far more seriously than we do.

these paragraphs struck me taken from RaptorPolitics...

The National Gamekeepers' Organisation said the reaction of conservationists shows a bias in favour of 'iconic' birds like the golden eagle, despite the fact the birds of prey are doing well in the UK and persecution is becoming less of an issue.

The last paragraph above is very interesting and significant, why because clearly the National Gamekeepers' Organisation appear to be over-looking the fact that most of our "Iconic" raptors are very conspicuous on Red Grouse moors because of their total absence from these important regions.. What utter nonsense some people put out.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> ve told you..i know nothng about shooting,never pretended too!iff people kill for fun on shoots,theyre morons....if they dont,theyre not...easy!:thumbup:





Sleeping_Lion said:


> None of your accusatory posts are prefixed with an 'if', so why should mine be?
> .


Uh hum SL


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Poor springerpete, I doubt he envisioned the can of worms that would open when he posted this thread


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> i just thought everyone would think my brilliant idea wouldnt be that brillant i suppose
> 
> oh thanks for the link then i put some on here the other day, just google 'game keeper prosecuted'...theres more prosecutions in Scotland because they take wildlife crime far more seriously than we do.
> 
> ...


That is my own personal experience this year 
I'm not lying


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## Gragface (Oct 8, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> Poor springerpete, I doubt he envisioned the can of worms that would open when he posted this thread


I bet he loves the drama!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> Poor springerpete, I doubt he envisioned the can of worms that would open when he posted this thread


Of course he did


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> i just thought everyone would think my brilliant idea wouldnt be that brillant i suppose
> 
> oh thanks for the link then i put some on here the other day, just google 'game keeper prosecuted'...theres more prosecutions in Scotland because they take wildlife crime far more seriously than we do.
> 
> ...


Sorry Noushka, but how do you know wildlife crime is taken more seriously in Scotland, except for what's available on the internet?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

JennyClifford said:


> That is my own personal experience this year
> I'm not lying


oh i totally believe you Jenny, surviving in the wild isnt easy especially for youngsters, blimey theyve got enough stacked against them without folk deliberatly killing them aswell.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> Poor springerpete, I doubt he envisioned the can of worms that would open when he posted this thread


Oh god don't mention putting worms in a can.....


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> oh i totally believe you Jenny, surviving in the wild isnt easy especially for youngsters, blimey theyve got enough stacked against them without folk deliberatly killing them aswell.


A case of crossed wires. 
My fault.  
Sorry


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

LexiLou2 said:


> Oh god don't mention putting worms in a can.....


good point
*ahem*
I mean 'can of _spaghetti_'


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> oh i totally believe you Jenny, surviving in the wild isnt easy especially for youngsters, blimey theyve got enough stacked against them without folk deliberatly killing them aswell.


What like people packing them in crates and sending them off to have their necks cut open?

Sorry Noush I don't think there's a comparison to be made in this instance.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> What like people packing them in crates and sending them off to have their necks cut open?
> 
> Sorry Noush I don't think there's a comparison to be made in this instance.


Another case of crossed wires I think 
We were talking Raptors not pheasants 
I think we are all getting tired


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

I am Massively against the hunting of animals for sport in a huge way...However...I believe this post is about a couple of *******$ who threatened a dog...for doing what exactly? What it was taught to do? They are hypocrites....they are against hunting..the pain and suffering of an animal....yet they threaten to use pepper spray to cause pain and suffering to an animal ....yeh that makes sense..............NOT....That Pint would have gone where the sun doesn't shine had it been my dog under threat.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Clare7435 said:


> I am Massively against the hunting of animals for sport in a huge way...However...I believe this post is about a couple of *******$ who threatened a dog...for doing what exactly? What it was taught to do? They are hypocrites....they are against hunting..the pain and suffering of an animal....yet they threaten to use pepper spray to cause pain and suffering to an animal ....yeh that makes sense..............NOT....That Pint would have gone where the sun doesn't shine had it been my dog under threat.


And I think that just about sums it up nicely regardless of if we agree or disagree with hunting etc the one thing that unites us all on this forum.....if anyone EVER threatened to hurt our dogs then.....well I'll let you all put your individual ending to that sentance but I am guessing that not many of them will be pleasant.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> oh i totally believe you Jenny, surviving in the wild isnt easy especially for youngsters, blimey theyve got enough stacked against them without folk deliberatly killing them aswell.


this is what I was posting about, no-one I know involved with hunting, shooting, would look at ways to cull them. Maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick? And I know (hopefullyl) Noushka is up for a debae, and no matter how much I may disagree on the finer points, we both love our dogs to bits, no matter what


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

LexiLou2 said:


> And I think that just about sums it up nicely regardless of if we agree or disagree with hunting etc the one thing that unites us all on this forum.....if anyone EVER threatened to hurt our dogs then.....well I'll let you all put your individual ending to that sentance but I am guessing that not many of them will be pleasant.


LOL I would but pet forums blanks out my swear words.....and I put a false s on holes too....


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> this is what I was posting about, no-one I know involved with hunting, shooting, would look at ways to cull them. Maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick? And I know (hopefullyl) Noushka is up for a debae, and no matter how much I may disagree on the finer points, we both love our dogs to bits, no matter what


Maybe it's just me getting tired then.
I still don't understand that post you made in relation to the post you have highlighted 
I'll come back tomorrow and see if I can make sense of it


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Sorry Noushka, but how do you know wildlife crime is taken more seriously in Scotland, except for what's available on the internet?


no it was actually a documentary on it i watched, theyre far more organised than our lot....ive found this link http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/218661/0058716.pdf



JennyClifford said:


> A case of crossed wires.
> My fault.
> Sorry


thats okay



Sleeping_Lion said:


> What like people packing them in crates and sending them off to have their necks cut open?
> 
> Sorry Noush I don't think there's a comparison to be made in this instance.


i have no idea what you think i mean SL



Sleeping_Lion said:


> this is what I was posting about, no-one I know involved with hunting, shooting, would look at ways to cull them. Maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick? And I know (hopefullyl) Noushka is up for a debae, and no matter how much I may disagree on the finer points, we both love our dogs to bits, no matter what


Yes we do love our dogs and a good debate lol...and i know not everyone involved in shooting wants them culled:arf:..........are we talking birds of prey then? lol


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> no it was actually a documentary on it i watched, theyre far more organised than our lot....ive found this link http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/218661/0058716.pdf
> 
> Umm, what's more organised, its simply repeating what is law.


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## JonoBeagle (Nov 1, 2011)

Hmmm, with their GCEs and pay check, they probably went to a three Michelin starred restaurant for lunch and ate "game" but that is OK. If you told them the chef shot it, they would look at you in horror! 

If I see game on a menu, rabbit, deer, duck, pheasant, I order it, whether you like the idea or not, it has been shot, it is dead, and if you don't eat it, it will go to waste... And I lve the flavour and enjoy shoots and stories of shoots. 

The chef at one of our restaurants goes to organized shoots and uses the whole deer in the restaurant for the whole of Autumn, Winter and however long it lasts into spring...

That is one Sika Deer a year. I.e sustainable... Unlike the poachers who do it for fun! I always order the deer because if it gets passed winter it is likely to go to waste, but the amount of people who don't know what a sweetbread is... It is beggars belief!  

Pete, next time hit hi. Twice no thrice... For you, me and for his hypocrisy having eaten what you probably were on a hunt for. :thumbup:


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> noushka05 said:
> 
> 
> > no it was actually a documentary on it i watched, theyre far more organised than our lot....ive found this link http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/218661/0058716.pdf
> ...


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> i hate hunting...and dont see how anyone that does it can hold any type of moral high ground!





albert 1970 said:


> this is always trotted out.....killing for fun....or sport as its called..is very different from killing to eat!





albert 1970 said:


> something wrong with people that kill for fun.......end of story!





albert 1970 said:


> il say it one more time......there is something wrong with someone who kills for FUN!.





albert 1970 said:


> its not sport!its killing for fun!!!!very sad people im afraid...i cant say on here what id do to them,as id get banned!


Albert, you posted these early on in the thread, I couldn't be bothered to trawl through and find any more of your sweeping generalisations, you obviously think, or at least thought at the time you posted these statements, that anyone involved with shooting is in it just because they enjoy killing. People have explained many times to you that this is generally not the case, and yet you chose in later posts to then add the word 'if' at the front, so 'if' it's for fun, does that mean you changed your mind? Or are you sticking to what you initially posted?

Noushka, apols as I went off on a tangent last night as well, the hazards of multi tasking whilst drinking wine 

Just off to catch up with posts and read what was posted properly!


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Albert, you posted these early on in the thread, I couldn't be bothered to trawl through and find any more of your sweeping generalisations, you obviously think, or at least thought at the time you posted these statements, that anyone involved with shooting is in it just because they enjoy killing. People have explained many times to you that this is generally not the case, and yet you chose in later posts to then add the word 'if' at the front, so 'if' it's for fun, does that mean you changed your mind? Or are you sticking to what you initially posted?
> 
> Noushka, apols as I went off on a tangent last night as well, the hazards of multi tasking whilst drinking wine
> 
> Just off to catch up with posts and read what was posted properly!


im sticking ith everything i say!i would imagine that everyone who shoots...enjoys it.....thats why they do it....i think they are odd...and i wouldlike to introduce a sport where i could use their lives for my entertainment!


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> im sticking ith everything i say!i would imagine that everyone who shoots...enjoys it.....thats why they do it....i think they are odd...and i wouldlike to introduce a sport where i could use their lives for my entertainment!


Personally I find it more odd that people eat meat without caring about the life the animal had. Burying their head in the sand about the often poor conditions these animals have every day of their short lives to provide cheap meat in the supermarket. To ME that shows complete lack of respect to animals.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

moonviolet said:


> Personally I find it more odd that people eat meat without caring about the life the animal had. Burying their head in the sand about the often poor conditions these animals have every day of their short lives to provide cheap meat in the supermarket. To ME that shows complete lack of respect to animals.


i agree!:thumbup:


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> im sticking ith everything i say!i would imagine that everyone who shoots...enjoys it.....thats why they do it....i think they are odd...and i wouldlike to introduce a sport where i could use their lives for my entertainment!


I can't say my husband enjoys it, he's shooting (& fishing) to feed his family & was raised to show respect to the animal, he doesn't stand there laughing like a loon when he's shot something, although he does enjoy making a delicious meal for our children that he has caught & prepared himself. If that makes him 'odd' then I'm sure he's happy to be that way. I think people who turn a blind eye to where the food they feed their families & themselves comes from & how it is killed are odd, like walking around wearing blinkersut:
I can see where you're coming from in a way, as I won't eat anything my husband's shot, but I think saying that you would use their lives for your entertainment is a bit extreme.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> im sticking ith everything i say!i would imagine that everyone who shoots...enjoys it.....thats why they do it....i think they are odd...and i wouldlike to introduce a sport where i could use their lives for my entertainment!


To be quite honest, given your wealth of inexperience and complete lack of knowledge on the whole thing, I really don't care what you choose to believe. I do care however, that people post completely uninformed opinions as if they're fact, and possibly other people browsing the internet may lack enough intelligence themselves to believe an opinion based on nothing but what someone *feels* about an issue, formed on the skewed ethics of our modern society.

At least Noushka, who I know is vegetarian and doesn't agree with hunting and shooting, is debating based on what she's read and experienced, even if I don't agree with all her posts or all the material put forward to back up her point of view.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> To be quite honest, given your wealth of inexperience and complete lack of knowledge on the whole thing, I really don't care what you choose to believe. I do care however, that people post completely uninformed opinions as if they're fact, and possibly other people browsing the internet may lack enough intelligence themselves to believe an opinion based on nothing but what someone *feels* about an issue, formed on the skewed ethics of our modern society.
> 
> At least Noushka, who I know is vegetarian and doesn't agree with hunting and shooting, is debating based on what she's read and experienced, even if I don't agree with all her posts or all the material put forward to back up her point of view.


i dont value your opinion either,as you clearly dont read what i write,mine is an opinion on hunting for fun.an opinion....never have i said its fact,ive never said anything about shooting,just made a general statement,and you and others have got their knickers in a twist about it!....please read whati write,and then you wont have to bother troting out your pro hunting lines to me.cos you have missed the point in a big way.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> i dont value your opinion either,as you clearly dont read what i write,mine is an opinion on hunting for fun.an opinion....never have i said its fact,ive never said anything about shooting,just made a general statement,and you and others have got their knickers in a twist about it!....please read whati write,and then you wont have to bother troting out your pro hunting lines to me.cos you have missed the point in a big way.


Now i'm seriously trying to glean what you are actually saying and frankly the gist i'm getting is that you are either being deliberately obtuse (because you enjoy the attention) or you are commenting on something completely different than the rest of us.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

moonviolet said:


> Now i'm seriously trying to glean what you are actually saying and frankly the gist i'm getting is that you are either being deliberately obtuse (because you enjoy the attention) or you are commenting on something completely different than the rest of us.


right for about he 50th time!.....i think anyone that hunts for FUN...has something wrong with them.......thats it....all the rest has ben added by others not me!people are replying to my comments with arguements that ave nothingto do with my statement....if you think im doing it for attention...why reply and give me itim anti hunting for fun.....is that clear.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> right for about he 50th time!.....i think anyone that hunts for FUN...has something wrong with them.......thats it....all the rest has ben added by others not me!people are replying to my comments with arguements that ave nothingto do with my statement....if you think im doing it for attention...why reply and give me itim anti hunting for fun.....is that clear.


OK, so you are talking about something different from the rest of us. Glad thats clear now.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> right for about he 50th time!.....i think anyone that hunts for FUN...has something wrong with them.......thats it....all the rest has ben added by others not me!people are replying to my comments with arguements that ave nothingto do with my statement....if you think im doing it for attention...why reply and give me itim anti hunting for fun.....is that clear.


Clear as a anything to me. I hunt and kill animals to eat. So we don't have a problem.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

moonviolet said:


> OK, so you are talking about something different from the rest of us. Glad thats clear now.


it would seem so....just answerng people who quote me


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

grandad said:


> Clear as a anything to me. I hunt and kill animals to eat. So we don't have a problem.


no problem with that!:thumbup:


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

**graphic pictures**
Do you mean this sort of hunting Albert? Fair enough I know many of these trophy hunters do use the meat from their kills but I personally think standing there like big men with their 'trophies' very tasteless & possibly making up for a lack of something in other departments. Take away the big gun & it would be the elephant standing there with a human trophy.......... oh wait, scratch that last sentence, I doubt an animal wouldn't stoop that low


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## beary_clairey (Jan 23, 2011)

If you like to eat meat then you must accept that animals are killed for that purpose.

Personally a game bird or deer that has been shot by someone in the animals natural environment is no worse than a cow killed in an abattoir.

I think if I gave you the choice and asked you if you wanted to be shot or stunned and then have your throat cut, I know what I would choose.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> its not sport!its killing for fun!!!!very sad people im afraid...i cant say on here what id do to them,as id get banned!





albert 1970 said:


> right for about he 50th time!.....i think anyone that hunts for FUN...has something wrong with them.......thats it....all the rest has ben added by others not me!people are replying to my comments with arguements that ave nothingto do with my statement....if you think im doing it for attention...why reply and give me itim anti hunting for fun.....is that clear.


So we're agreed, you think that all people who go shooting have something wrong with them, despite the fact that many of them don't do it for *fun* that's just your perception, and despite the fact that they enjoy eating game knowing it's been looked after and tastes much nicer than stuff you can buy down the shops


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> no problem with that!:thumbup:


Good, cos that's what British game shooting is all about.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So we're agreed, you think that all people who go shooting have something wrong with them, despite the fact that many of them don't do it for *fun* that's just your perception, and despite the fact that they enjoy eating game knowing it's been looked after and tastes much nicer than stuff you can buy down the shops


i give up!


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

grandad said:


> Good, cos that's what British game shooting is all about.


what i would say is i wouldnt call it a sport!


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

Not done for fun ? - even the BASC describes it as:


> Game shooting has become increasingly popular in recent decades. It is an accessible *sport, enjoyed by many *
> No longer the preserve of the landed classes, game shooting is accessible, and it can provide a valuable bridge between town and country offering, on the one hand,* recreation in the countryside* and, on the other, economic benefits to help sustain a healthy rural community.


Now I don't know about you but an activity described as 'enjoyable' and a 'recreation in the countryside ' surely implies an element of being done for pleasure ...personally I see nothing 'recreational' about killing .......

and here's a little snippet from a company offering shooting days :


> Partridge shooting has seen a resurgence in recent years with many estates adding these diverting little birds to their existing pheasant drives *to provide fast and furious sport for the guns.* The native English partridge can be seen in many parts of England thanks to conservation projects, these birds are rarely shot as the numbers are too few for the sustainable sport enjoyed during the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.
> 
> The vast majority of partridges reared and released in Britain are French red legged and these birds have a marked difference in both their colouration and flight patterns. Partridge shoots take place during September and October and *provide some fantastic early season sport with days ranging from one to four hundred plus birds.
> *
> .


..quite clearly those 'diverting little birds' are shot because they provide 'fantastic sport' NOT for their meat - and get those figures ..up to 400 plus birds in a single day !


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

This discussion is bound to go round and round in circles. Nowadays, it's impossible not to act in ways that are considered vulgar or cruel. Anyone own a leather jacket? Anyone buy a cheap chicken from the supermarket? Anyone go hunting? Anyone buy clothes from Primark?

There are so many things in our society that can be seen as inhumane and cruel. Whilst some don't like the idea of hunting as a recreational activity, I bet they would be surprised to know where their supermarket meat comes from and how it was treated, or how their latest jacket they wore last Saturday was made.

I don't mind game hunting. We are top of the food chain, the animals are being killed fairly and in their natural environment, and they are being part of damn good eating  This is bliss compared to what many animals have to go through to fulfill our other means of 'fun'.

So, hypocrisy is pretty inescapable in these arguments. I know I fall into the trap all the time!


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Does it make any difference.if you have fun while you hunt?
Shootings not really my thing but I enjoy seeing a hawk or falcon flying game.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Heres another hunter who admits he enjoys shooting, even reading his account turns my stomach.

By the end of the day, I had enjoyed some fine shooting at pheasants and the odd woodcock on that wonderful shoot, but only one bird came far enough forward to count as mine on the first drive. I watched as it turned back along the valley, but did not lift my gun  it was simply too high. At the end of the drive, my old friend Ian, who had shown me to my peg, came back from his picking-up position and said, What was up with that cock, too good for you? I replied that it was, and then fired a question back at him: You are kindly taking me to try for a few pinkfeet out on the moss tomorrow. Would you shoot at a skein of geese that high


However, we should not lose sight of the fact that the pellets have still got plenty of energy to cause harm. This came home to me one sunny morning when I tried for a couple of high wigeon. After hearing the pellets strike, I saw two red blood streaks develop against the white breast of the departing bird. Game Shots rarely get such a visible sign of the damage that they are doing.

Know your range 

There is not a sudden cut-off point when your shotgun becomes harmless. What happens as we extend range, is that we move through a wide zone where lucky pellet strikes will bring birds down sometimes. However, for every screamer that we pull off beyond the reliable limit, there will be others that you have only wounded, and if you are a good shot that may well be most of what you shoot at.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

hawksport said:


> Does it make any difference.if you have fun while you hunt?
> Shootings not really my thing but I enjoy seeing a hawk or falcon flying game.


dosent really matter to me as i dont agree with game shoots whatever, but i do believe folk who say they dont shoot for pleasure arent exactly being truthful...jmo.

i cant imagine hunting with hawks is damaging to the environment nor relys on intensive breeding of game, so although im no fan of hunting per se, i personally dont have a problem with hunting with hawks.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Albert, you posted these early on in the thread, I couldn't be bothered to trawl through and find any more of your sweeping generalisations, you obviously think, or at least thought at the time you posted these statements, that anyone involved with shooting is in it just because they enjoy killing. People have explained many times to you that this is generally not the case, and yet you chose in later posts to then add the word 'if' at the front, so 'if' it's for fun, does that mean you changed your mind? Or are you sticking to what you initially posted?
> 
> Noushka, apols as I went off on a tangent last night as well, the hazards of multi tasking whilst drinking wine
> 
> Just off to catch up with posts and read what was posted properly!


 thats alright SL, i wasnt much better myself lol x


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> dosent really matter to me as i dont agree with game shoots whatever, but i do believe folk who say they dont shoot for pleasure arent exactly being truthful...jmo.
> 
> i cant imagine hunting with hawks is damaging to the environment nor relys on intensive breeding of game, so although im no fan of hunting per se, i personally dont have a problem with hunting with hawks.


Shooting is an expensive pastime so unless you're in pest control I would agree there has to be a level of enjoyment in it. I just don't see what difference it makes on animal welfare grounds whether you have fun or not while you do it


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

hawksport said:


> Shooting is an expensive pastime so unless you're in pest control I would agree there has to be a level of enjoyment in it. I just don't see what difference it makes on animal welfare grounds whether you have fun or not while you do it


neither do i, but im sure its been said on here, several times, that folk dont shoot for enjoyment....i actually think they do...hence my post.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> neither do i, but im sure its been said on here, several times, that folk dont shoot for enjoyment....i actually think they do...hence my post.


I don't think people have said they don't enjoy a shoot (although some may have as I haven't read all the posts lately!) but that the birds shot are not wasted.

As I said previously, although I would never shoot (I don't eat meat & personally couldn't kill an animal) but I do fish which is classed as hunting. I do enjoy the day, I do enjoy the thrill of hooking a fish & this is part of it as much as the actual eating of the fish.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Bijou said:


> Not done for fun ? - even the BASC describes it as:
> 
> Now I don't know about you but an activity described as 'enjoyable' and a 'recreation in the countryside ' surely implies an element of being done for pleasure ...personally I see nothing 'recreational' about killing .......
> 
> ...


It could be a 1000 birdsin a day and you could times that by 1000's of shoots, going one everyday, they'll end up on someones dinner table.

There are a lot of definitions on the word sport. "pastime" is one of them, so the word sport can be construed to your argument, just as easily as it could be construed to our argument.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Cleo38 said:


> I don't think people have said they don't enjoy a shoot (although some may have as I haven't read all the posts lately!) but that the birds shot are not wasted.
> 
> As I said previously, although I would never shoot (I don't eat meat & personally couldn't kill an animal) but I do fish which is classed as hunting. I do enjoy the day, I do enjoy the thrill of hooking a fish & this is part of it as much as the actual eating of the fish.


I may have got the wrong end of the stick then, and i cant be bothered to trawl through that lot again....but i have heard some say before they do it because they enjoy the shoot...i know for sure one of our friends does, hes told us its the enjoyment and excitement of the shoot he does it for...the meat is secondary.

I dont have a problem with angling Cleo, its not my thing, but to me its poles apart from the game bird industry


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I suppose for many who do shoot its not dissimilar to going for a hike or walk- a day out in the country, surrounded by wildlife & beautiful scenery. My husband enjoys a day's fishing, not necessarily for the catch, but for the peace & tranquility of sitting alone by the river having time to himself. I'd prefer the same setting with a good book myself


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> I suppose for many who do shoot its not dissimilar to going for a hike or walk- a day out in the country, surrounded by wildlife & beautiful scenery. My husband enjoys a day's fishing, not necessarily for the catch, but for the peace & tranquility of sitting alone by the river having time to himself. I'd prefer the same setting with a good book myself


I do both, Sometimes I've never had a shot or never caught a fish. Like you say, it's about having a day out in the countryside, with friends, with dogs, or by yourself with your dog.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

grandad said:


> I do both, Sometimes I've never had a shot or never caught a fish. Like you say, it's about having a day out in the countryside, with friends, with dogs, *or by yourself with your dog*.


They are all good, but the last one's my favourite - climbing a mountain or running through the woods with only a dog for company is such a peaceful way to spend a day.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

this will go round and round in circles,people who kill animals for fun,will always find ways to justify it....i would love to set up my own sport....get some hunters in a field..me and some mates,give em a 5 min head start....then off we go on the hunt....id love it...anyone wana play!?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> neither do i, but im sure its been said on here, several times, that folk dont shoot for enjoyment....i actually think they do...hence my post.


No Noushka, I think the whole issue has been taken out of context, people enjoy going on a day shooting, they enjoy shooting, but it's not because they're sadistic, or there's something wrong with them, it's because they enjoy the whole experience, and they most likely enjoy taking home a couple of game birds to eat. I don't shoot myself, but have no qualms about necking a bird when necessary, or killing a myxi bunny etc, not because I'm sadistic, but because I care an animal/bird doesn't suffer unecessarily. Shooting at birds where you are unsure whether you can shoot to kill is not something anyone I know would do, nor (as another example) would they shoot wildfowl over frozen water, where, if only wounded, it's impossible to retrieve them. But you will get people who are involved with shooting that don't have the same respect for the animals/birds they shoot, and possibly eat. And I say possibly there, not because they wouldn't be eaten, but because you're unlikely on a shoot to take home birds you've shot, as a gun, if you're handed a brace of birds it will just be two birds off the game cart, I've got a brace of phessies hung up in the utility room waiting to be plucked and drawn, a hen and a boy bird (not sure if the forum will allow me to put c*ck  ). The OH didn't shoot them, he wasn't shooting today, but thank you to whoever did because they are bloomin delicious!


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> No Noushka, I think the whole issue has been taken out of context, people enjoy going on a day shooting, they enjoy shooting, but it's not because they're sadistic, or there's something wrong with them, it's because they enjoy the whole experience, and they most likely enjoy taking home a couple of game birds to eat. I don't shoot myself, but have no qualms about necking a bird when necessary, or killing a myxi bunny etc, not because I'm sadistic, but because I care an animal/bird doesn't suffer unecessarily. Shooting at birds where you are unsure whether you can shoot to kill is not something anyone I know would do, nor (as another example) would they shoot wildfowl over frozen water, where, if only wounded, it's impossible to retrieve them. But you will get people who are involved with shooting that don't have the same respect for the animals/birds they shoot, and possibly eat. And I say possibly there, not because they wouldn't be eaten, but because you're unlikely on a shoot to take home birds you've shot, as a gun, if you're handed a brace of birds it will just be two birds off the game cart, I've got a brace of phessies hung up in the utility room waiting to be plucked and drawn, a hen and a boy bird (not sure if the forum will allow me to put c*ck  ). The OH didn't shoot them, he wasn't shooting today, but thank you to whoever did because they are bloomin delicious!


as people posting on here in favour of shooting seem very concerned about the welfare of the birds....how about the birds injured and not killed,must hapen?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> this will go round and round in circles,people who kill animals for fun,will always find ways to justify it....i would love to set up my own sport....get some hunters in a field..me and some mates,give em a 5 min head start....then off we go on the hunt....id love it...anyone wana play!?


I'm with you on this one albert!

I've not read through the whole thread because after the first couple of pages I realised it's just the same old same old, but I would like to make a few observations:

Firstly, to go back to the original post, anyone who thinks they help animals by harming animals is totally misguided and just as bad as the hunters/shooters themselves.

Secondly, not all people who disagree with hunting and shooting are city-dwellers - there are a good number of us who live in the countryside.

Thirdly, there is more than a choice of hunting or buying supermarket meat. Hunting animals and then killing them is as inhumane as battery farming. Both are equally horrendous. Meat eaters can and do choose to eat meat from animals that have been reared ethically, and killed humanely.

Fourthly, no matter what argument is made by the pro-hunters (ie the meat is eaten, it benefits the countryside etc etc) I still cannot get my head around the fact that people can enjoy hunting and shooting animals for any reason whatsoever.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> as people posting on here in favour of shooting seem very concerned about the welfare of the birds....how about the birds injured and not killed,must hapen?


Birds that are pricked are retrieved to hand by a team of people with dogs, known as pickers up. That's where we get the gundog group of 'retrievers' that are specifically bred with a drive to retrieve to hand, see my latest post in 'Training Rhuna' where I've done a bit of training for just that this afternoon. At five months old, her training is still on dummies.

If a bird is what's known as a runner, ie pricked but still alive and kicking, the dogs are trained to scent the birds and hunt them down, and then retrieve to hand. The birds are then dispatched by the handler.

Retrievers are bred for a soft mouth, so they don't crush or harm the birds. Also worth noting, retrieving birds is usually left until the end of a drive, although for runners, the shoots I have experience of allow the birds to be picked during the drive.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> I'm with you on this one albert!
> 
> I've not read through the whole thread because after the first couple of pages I realised it's just the same old same old, but I would like to make a few observations:
> 
> ...


Do you make a living from the countryside? And I agree with you about ethically reared food. Which game birds are. Or are you one of those peeps that move to the countryside and then complain about the smell?


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

grandad said:


> Do you make a living from the countryside? And I agree with you about ethically reared food. Which game birds are. Or are you one of those peeps that move to the countryside and then complain about the smell?


this is the sort of rsponse id expect from someone like you.....trying to patronise someone who doesnt like what you do.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Birds that are pricked are retrieved to hand by a team of people with dogs, known as pickers up. That's where we get the gundog group of 'retrievers' that are specifically bred with a drive to retrieve to hand, see my latest post in 'Training Rhuna' where I've done a bit of training for just that this afternoon. At five months old, her training is still on dummies.
> 
> If a bird is what's known as a runner, ie pricked but still alive and kicking, the dogs are trained to scent the birds and hunt them down, and then retrieve to hand. The birds are then dispatched by the handler.
> 
> Retrievers are bred for a soft mouth, so they don't crush or harm the birds. Also worth noting, retrieving birds is usually left until the end of a drive, although for runners, the shoots I have experience of allow the birds to be picked during the drive.


so no birds are injured,and fly off to a slow painfull death?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> so no birds are injured,and fly off to a slow painfull death?


Every effort is made to retrieve all the birds, guns mark down what they've shot, and the picking up team pick up everything they mark as well, and are also told to by the guns. What's your point?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

grandad said:


> Do you make a living from the countryside? And I agree with you about ethically reared food. Which game birds are. Or are you one of those peeps that move to the countryside and then complain about the smell?


I don't make a living from the countryside - unless you count potato picking and pea picking when I was younger! But except for a couple of years living in Sheffield - which I hated - I have lived in the countryside. And as for the smells - one of the attractions as far as I am concerned!


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Every effort is made to retrieve all the birds, guns mark down what they've shot, and the picking up team pick up everything they mark as well, and are also told to by the guns. What's your point?


would of thougt my point is obvious!....whilst the shoot people on here keep telling us how concerned they are with animal welfare,im wondering how much suffering goes on for this sport!


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> would of thougt my point is obvious!....whilst the shoot people on here keep telling us how concerned they are with animal welfare,im wondering how much suffering goes on for this sport!


No doubt far less than the abuse suffered by thousands of pets at the hands of idiot owners... and your point is


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> would of thougt my point is obvious!....whilst the shoot people on here keep telling us how concerned they are with animal welfare,im wondering how much suffering goes on for this sport!


No, your point isn't obvious, and as you know nothing about shooting, nor animal management for those animals reared for the table, I really don't think you're in a position to make any informed comments, just the same misinformed assumptions that you've made throughout this thread.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> so no birds are injured,and fly off to a slow painfull death?


Then they suffer the same fate as your chicken that moves at the wrong time and misses the stunning bath, gets its chest sliced open instead of its neck cut because its still flapping about and is then dropped into boiling water
While we are talking about ethically produced meat I seem to remember a video on here not so long ago of ethically produced geese being kicked and stuffed into crates


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> No, your point isn't obvious, and as you know nothing about shooting, nor animal management for those animals reared for the table, I really don't think you're in a position to make any informed comments, just the same misinformed assumptions that you've made throughout this thread.


lol,typical...as soon as an uncomfortable question comes up....revert to type lol,couldnt make it up.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

Irish Setter Gal said:


> No doubt far less than the abuse suffered by thousands of pets at the hands of idiot owners... and your point is


so because some people mistreat pets....its ok for birds to die a slow painfull death.....interesting logic!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> lol,typical...as soon as an uncomfortable question comes up....revert to type lol,couldnt make it up.


Albert, you really make me laugh in a sad way, you seem to like making assumptions about things you know nothing about. You're having to ask questions to even find things out, about shooting, so you can then make more assumptions on what little knowledge you accrue.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Albert, you really make me laugh in a sad way, you seem to like making assumptions about things you know nothing about. You're having to ask questions to even find things out, about shooting, so you can then make more assumptions on what little knowledge you accrue.


you are the most amusing here lol....i know nothing of shooting....never said i do......you never answer a question.......ok....lets try this....lets use your logic.....do you agree with dog fighting....


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> you are the most amusing here lol....i know nothing of shooting....never said i do......you never answer a question.......ok....lets try this....lets use your logic.....do you agree with dog fighting....


I never answer a question, wow, people have been asking you relevant questions about food all throughout this thread, and you've avoided answering. Now you're asking me about dog fighting, how irrelevant is that?


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

hawksport said:


> Then they suffer the same fate as your chicken that moves at the wrong time and misses the stunning bath, gets its chest sliced open instead of its neck cut because its still flapping about and is then dropped into boiling water
> While we are talking about ethically produced meat I seem to remember a video on here not so long ago of ethically produced geese being kicked and stuffed into crates


I remember that, its for this reason I decided to give up meat, at the end of the day who knows what goes on in the slaughterhouse?


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I never answer a question, wow, people have been asking you relevant questions about food all throughout this thread, and you've avoided answering. Now you're asking me about dog fighting, how irrelevant is that?


please humour me and answer the question


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> please humour me and answer the question


Maybe she will answer your question about dog fighting if you'll answer her earlier questions about whether you eat meat


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> Maybe she will answer your question about dog fighting if you'll answer her earlier questions about whether you eat meat


yes i do eat meat


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> No Noushka, I think the whole issue has been taken out of context, people enjoy going on a day shooting, they enjoy shooting, but it's not because they're sadistic, or there's something wrong with them, it's because they enjoy the whole experience, and they most likely enjoy taking home a couple of game birds to eat. I don't shoot myself, but have no qualms about necking a bird when necessary, or killing a myxi bunny etc, not because I'm sadistic, but because I care an animal/bird doesn't suffer unecessarily. Shooting at birds where you are unsure whether you can shoot to kill is not something anyone I know would do, nor (as another example) would they shoot wildfowl over frozen water, where, if only wounded, it's impossible to retrieve them. But you will get people who are involved with shooting that don't have the same respect for the animals/birds they shoot, and possibly eat. And I say possibly there, not because they wouldn't be eaten, but because you're unlikely on a shoot to take home birds you've shot, as a gun, if you're handed a brace of birds it will just be two birds off the game cart, I've got a brace of phessies hung up in the utility room waiting to be plucked and drawn, a hen and a boy bird (not sure if the forum will allow me to put c*ck  ). The OH didn't shoot them, he wasn't shooting today, but thank you to whoever did because they are bloomin delicious!


afraid im with Spellweaver SL, i just cant undersand how people can make a days enjoyment around the killing of these birds for what ever reason.

And even if some dont enjoy it and are simply killing game birds to put food on the table, i still feel the same, because as i say conservation is my passion, also im totally against intensive farming methods and millions of breeding birds are kept in exactly that way.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm not pro dog fighting, and am actually quite insulted that you feel it necessary to ask it. 

So if you eat meat, where would you say you buy the majority of it from?


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm not pro dog fighting, and am actually quite insulted that you feel it necessary to ask it.
> 
> So if you eat meat, where would you say you buy the majority of it from?


have you ever been to a dog fight?

we buy our meat from the local butcher..


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> have you ever been to a dog fight?
> 
> we buy our meat from the local butcher..


Are you seriously going to compare dog fighting to a shoot?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> have you ever been to a dog fight?
> 
> we buy our meat from the local butcher..


Are you trying to prove a point by asking whether I can make a valid comment about something I have no first hand experience of, if so it's a very naff way of going about it.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Are you trying to prove a point by asking whether I can make a valid comment about something I have no first hand experience of, if so it's a very naff way of going about it.


yes...ridiculous isnt it?


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

Gemmaa said:


> Are you seriously going to compare dog fighting to a shoot?


no.................


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## XxZoexX (Sep 8, 2010)

See this is a hard one.. i became vegetarian when younger after seeing battery farming ect, But as i got older and learnt more i came to the realisation that living off the land is far more respectable and humane than buying a battery farmed chicken that was reared in a horrific manner, and doing it in a way that doesnt strip the land completley (thinking of tuna fishing ect)
I love the idea of working a dog and it doing whats intended, i understand that as a handler i would enjoy that. I also admire someone who lives that way and respects the land, shoots to provide ect.
I am torn with the idea of people paying (ie corperate partys) for a "fun" day out but also realise that this is a way for someone to keep there estate running, keep people in jobs and conserve the land.
So am i on the fence, Guess i am in a way.. But would i take Jack to work a shoot? in a heartbeat..Id be proud.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> yes...ridiculous isnt it?


That's the first thing you've said on this thread that actually makes sense.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> That's the first thing you've said on this thread that actually makes sense.


im 1 up on you then


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> im 1 up on you then


Of course, that's your opinion, which is, well, I hate to go round in circles


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

grandad said:


> Do you make a living from the countryside? And I agree with you about ethically reared food. Which game birds are. Or are you one of those peeps that move to the countryside and then complain about the smell?


but what about millions of game birds used for breeding? many of those are treated far from ethically, even BASC wanted something done about it. ,

and then theres the millions of imports most of which come from intensive breeding farms....about half the pheasants reared and up to 90% of partridges are imported into Great Britain. Of which 70% of imported pheasants and 100% of imported red-legged partridges originate from intensive systems.

i grew up in a village and now live in a mining town surrounded by countryside ,so ive always lived there.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Think it might be time to put this thread to bed, it must be kanckered & very dizzy from going in circles all day. Do it. For the kitty.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

421 comments


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## XxZoexX (Sep 8, 2010)

and still open.. am impressed


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

Nouska - your you tube clip was incredibly powerful -I do hope that everyone on here takes a look ......

and this sums up EXACTLY how I feel and why I'm so disgusted by those on here who continue to make excuses for this vile 'sport'



> *Life is to be cherished, protected, defended and championed, not to be wantonly and cruelly destroyed, and certainly not for so frail an excuse as pleasure or sport. Captain Paul Watson*


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Bijou said:


> Nouska - your you tube clip was incredibly powerful -I do hope that everyone on here takes a look ......
> 
> and this sums up EXACTLY how I feel and why I'm so disgusted by those on here who continue to make excuses for this vile 'sport'


I agree. I'd like to see those on here who are pro killing animals, all those who think killing animals is all part of a day's enjoyment with their dog, all those who try to justify their behaviour by convincing themselves that they are somehow doing animals and/or the countryside a favour by killing animals, to watch the clip and then try to justify their position.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I don't need to watch it, I attend enough shoots, and know enough people within shooting, to be happy with my position as regards shooting.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I don't need to watch it, I attend enough shoots, and know enough people within shooting, to be happy with my position as regards shooting.


To go back to Albert's argument about dog fighting, a yob with a fighting dog could use exactly the same argument and feel justified in continuing what he was doing. If you only ever look at one side of an issue, you will only ever have an unbalanced view of the situation.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> To go back to Albert's argument about dog fighting, a yob with a fighting dog could use exactly the same argument and feel justified in continuing what he was doing. If you only ever look at one side of an issue, you will only ever have an unbalanced view of the situation.


none so blind as those that dont want to see!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> To go back to Albert's argument about dog fighting, a yob with a fighting dog could use exactly the same argument and feel justified in continuing what he was doing. If you only ever look at one side of an issue, you will only ever have an unbalanced view of the situation.


I've looked at all sides, I'm happy with my current opinion. I used to be vegetarian, because I didn't believe in some animals being utilised as food, and others not.

Dog fighting is about as relevant as child abuse in this instance, b*gga all relevance tbh.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I've looked at all sides, I'm happy with my current opinion. I used to be vegetarian, because I didn't believe in some animals being utilised as food, and others not.
> 
> Dog fighting is about as relevant as child abuse in this instance, b*gga all relevance tbh.


both using animals for human entertainment...to the detramant of the animals!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> both using animals for human entertainment...to the detramant of the animals!




concise and to the point as always! Oh no, got you confused with anybody else


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> both using animals for human entertainment...to the detramant of the animals!





Sleeping_Lion said:


>


But he's right. Unless, of course, you think that a) the people on here who posted that they enjoy what they do are lying or b) the people who set dogs against each other somehow do it for the dogs' sake.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> But he's right. Unless, of course, you think that a) the people on here who posted that they enjoy what they do are lying or b) the people who set dogs against each other somehow do it for the dogs' sake.


No, he's not right, not if he's quoting what I said previously about comparisons.

Please don't try and tell me that people dog fight for the sake of the dogs, what a ridiculous and uneducated view, I would hope you could see the difference, it's completely unrelated and there's absolutely no comparisons to be made.

Edited to add, good to see you back on here debating, even if I don't agree with you


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> No, he's not right, not if he's quoting what I said previously about comparisons.
> 
> Please don't try and tell me that people dog fight for the sake of the dogs, what a ridiculous and uneducated view, I would hope you could see the difference, it's completely unrelated and there's absolutely no comparisons to be made.
> 
> Edited to add, good to see you back on here debating, even if I don't agree with you


you think its different....i hapen to see simularities.....you are using animals for your entertainment...ok...so these that you kill you eat...i understand that,its the enjoyment i dont understand.how can shootig the bird out of the sky entertain you...i dont get it!


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## Snippet (Apr 14, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> you think its different....i hapen to see simularities.....you are using animals for your entertainment...ok...so these that you kill you eat...i understand that,its the enjoyment i dont understand.how can shootig the bird out of the sky entertain you...i dont get it!


The shooting isn't the be all and end all of a shoot. It is a social event as much as anything, so what is the matter with enjoying it?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> you think its different....i hapen to see simularities.....you are using animals for your entertainment...ok...so these that you kill you eat...i understand that,its the enjoyment i dont understand.how can shootig the bird out of the sky entertain you...i dont get it!


Maybe you need to read back through my posts, I don't shoot.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> No, he's not right, not if he's quoting what I said previously about comparisons.
> 
> Please don't try and tell me that people dog fight for the sake of the dogs, what a ridiculous and uneducated view, I would hope you could see the difference, it's completely unrelated and there's absolutely no comparisons to be made.
> 
> Edited to add, good to see you back on here debating, even if I don't agree with you


I always enjoy debating with you too hun - sometimes we agree, sometimes we disagree, but we always respect each other's views and, whether or not we agree, we always have a good discussion.

Now, back to what I was saying - I didn't say that people dog fight for the sake of the dogs. I said that unless _you_ were trying to argue that they did, you would have to agree that dog fighting was done for the entertainment of humans - just as hunting and shooting animals is. (And that was the point albert was making.)


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

Snippet said:


> The shooting isn't the be all and end all of a shoot. It is a social event as much as anything, so what is the matter with enjoying it?


i personally couldnt enjoy any event that involved killing animals..for whatever reason.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> I always enjoy debating with you too hun - sometimes we agree, sometimes we disagree, but we always respect each other's views and, whether or not we agree, we always have a good discussion.
> 
> Now, back to what I was saying - I didn't say that people dog fight for the sake of the dogs. I said that unless _you_ were trying to argue that they did, you would have to agree that dog fighting was done for the entertainment of humans - just as hunting and shooting animals is. (And that was the point albert was making.)


So how does dog fighting fit in with conservation and the food chain? I don't eat dog for a start!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Snippet said:


> The shooting isn't the be all and end all of a shoot. It is a social event as much as anything, so what is the matter with enjoying it?


Applying that logic, you would have to say the fight isn't the be all and end all of a dog fight, and that it is a social event as much as anything, so what is wrong with people enjoying dog fights?


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So how does dog fighting fit in with conservation and the food chain? I don't eat dog for a start!


hahahahaha....classic...can just imagine the shooters jumping out of bed saying.."must rush love..ive got a food chain to preserve!!"coulnt make it up!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So how does dog fighting fit in with conservation and the food chain? I don't eat dog for a start!


Dogs aren't part of the food chain in this country ......... but they are in others


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> Dogs aren't part of the food chain in this country ......... but they are in others


Game bird shoots aren't part of the culture in other countries, but they are in this


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> Dogs aren't part of the food chain in this country ......... but they are in others





Sleeping_Lion said:


> Game bird shoots aren't part of the culture in other countries, but they are in this


And just as we find the way dogs are killed for food in these countries barbaric, I would hazard a guess that they look on our practice of raising game birds just to be shot equally as barbaric.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> And just as we find the way dogs are killed for food in these countries barbaric, I would hazard a guess that they look on our practice of raising game birds just to be shot equally as barbaric.


I very much doubt it, having lived in numerous countries, they probably find the idea of allowing birds to be released to be possibly shot, wasteful.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I very much doubt it, having lived in numerous countries, they probably find the idea of allowing birds to be released to be possibly shot, wasteful.


may i say...the reason those give to justify their sport...is that they kill to eat,when clearly the birds are in captivity anyway.....the more i know about this....the more i hate it!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> may i say...the reason those give to justify their sport...is that they kill to eat,when clearly the birds are in captivity anyway.....the more i know about this....the more i hate it!


Nice of you to pop up and show your ignorance again 

I've never seen a gun point a shotgun at a phessie in a cage! I've never seen tame birds on a shoot, perhaps youhave


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I very much doubt it, having lived in numerous countries, they probably find the idea of allowing birds to be released to be possibly shot, wasteful.


I'll have to bow to your superior knowledge because I've never lived (or even visited) countries where they eat dogs. I was basing my supposition on my own opinion - that the one act was as barbaric as the other.

But then,thinking about it, it doesn't surprise me that countries in which the population think there is nothing wrong in the way dogs are treated when sold for food would also countenance raising birds just to be shot.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

What happens to the birds that are shot and killed?

If the birds are eaten, where would people get the birds from if shooting was banned?

Would banning shooting improve the lot of game birds, with none being bred and game birds off the menu?

Or would they still be bred in huge numbers and intensively farmed and slaughtered like chickens?

Or is there little call for them as food anyway, so only free range birds would be raised as a speciality dish, or perhaps for zoos and as exotic pets?

Would banning shooting as a sport improve the lot of the game-bird in the UK?

I would prefer to see controls over the intensive farming methods, the number of birds released for shooting and serious consequences for those acting outside of the law and destroying birds of prey.

If I wanted to call for a ban on shooting game in the UK, I would want to know what the consequences would be, for the countryside, for the birds and for nature in general. If I didn't know, I'd butt out, or find out.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Bijou said:


> Nouska - your you tube clip was incredibly powerful -I do hope that everyone on here takes a look ......
> 
> and this sums up EXACTLY how I feel and why I'm so disgusted by those on here who continue to make excuses for this vile 'sport'





Spellweaver said:


> I agree. I'd like to see those on here who are pro killing animals, all those who think killing animals is all part of a day's enjoyment with their dog, all those who try to justify their behaviour by convincing themselves that they are somehow doing animals and/or the countryside a favour by killing animals, to watch the clip and then try to justify their position.


I totally agree with both of you x...and i too really wish all the pro-hunting folk would watch the video, it would be really interesting to see if any have a change of opinion afterwards?...it was hard enough for me to watch nevermind participate.

also they really should do more research into the game bird industry, as i think many would be really shocked to find that its actually not as ethical as they probably believe it to be.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> I'll have to bow to your superior knowledge because I've never lived (or even visited) countries where they eat dogs. I was basing my supposition on my own opinion - that the one act was as barbaric as the other.
> 
> But then,thinking about it, it doesn't surprise me that countries in which the population think there is nothing wrong in the way dogs are treated when sold for food would also countenance raising birds just to be shot.


Trust me on this one, there's a world of difference, I'm talking about cultures that kill owls and snakes for their association to witch craft, and will eat domestic, or half domesticated animals, because it's free.

Setting up a successful shoot does not depend on anything like this type of ethics, it's a completely different entity.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Nice of you to pop up and show your ignorance again
> 
> I've never seen a gun point a shotgun at a phessie in a cage! I've never seen tame birds on a shoot, perhaps youhave


i wont bow to your level of insults or morals.....my point is,if you wanted to eat the birds..there is a better way of doing it...but that wouldnt be fun would it?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Elles said:


> If I wanted to call for a ban on shooting game in the UK, I would want to know what the consequences would be, for the countryside, for the birds and for nature in general. If I didn't know, I'd butt out, or find out.


Nature in general has a way of working things out without the help/hindrance of humankind


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> I totally agree with both of you x...and i too really wish all the pro-hunting folk would watch the video, it would be really interesting to see if any have a change of opinion afterwards?...it was hard enough for me to watch nevermind participate.
> 
> also they really should do more research into the game bird industry, as i think many would be really shocked to find that its not as ethical as they probably believe it to be.


Noushka, I'm sorry but no-one I know is associated with anything I wouldn't want to be associated with, I haven't watched the u-tube clip but I am vehemently against LACS for a number of reasons. I wish more people understood just how much some put into the care and welfare of their birds, where they're sourced from, which for those I know involved with shoots, they support local suppliers, not imported (not sure how those import figures work, unless they relate to large commercial shoots or shoot towers, neither of which I like).


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## Voltaire (Nov 4, 2011)

I've only read about 5 pages of this thread, that is enough! I can not be bothered to sift through 45 pages lol 

Anyway, my thoughts are, as long as it's done sensibly I'm all for it. I would much prefer to eat a piece of meat that had a few hours ago been flying around a field, than a piece of meat that had been in a battery farm.

I have no problem with putting a rabbit or pheasant down for the dogs either - they love it!

To those who think it's cruel to shoot these animals for enjoyment, what do you think of the people who actively lock away these animals in battery farms, not even blinking an eye to the atrociousness of it? or is that okay because they aren't actually 'killing' the animal?

I'd much rather my meat came from someone who'd shot it in this sustainable way as has been discussed!


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> I totally agree with both of you x...and i too really wish all the pro-hunting folk would watch the video, it would be really interesting to see if any have a change of opinion afterwards?...it was hard enough for me to watch nevermind participate.
> 
> also they really should do more research into the game bird industry, as i think many would be really shocked to find that its actually not as ethical as they probably believe it to be.


Is the link posted on here? As I haven't been able to find it


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Trust me on this one, there's a world of difference, I'm talking about cultures that kill owls and snakes for their association to witch craft, and will eat domestic, or half domesticated animals, because it's free.
> 
> Setting up a successful shoot does not depend on anything like this type of ethics, it's a completely different entity.


I must admit I was thinking more of cultures such as in the Philippines, where dogs are kept in horrendous conditions prior to being sold for food, rather than cultures who are so poor they will kill and eat domesticated animals because it's free.

I can see that there is a completely different set of ethics involved - but honestly and truthfully, in my opinion the person who kills and eats a domesticated animal because he is hungry and it is free, is morally and ethically far more evolved than the person who shoots for fun in a set up "shoot" - even if said person does manage to salve his conscience by telling himself that the birds will be used to garnish the tables of people who might like the taste of what he has killed after he has finished enjoying himself.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> Nature in general has a way of working things out without the help/hindrance of humankind


If it was left to nature, how would the world feed itself?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> Is the link posted on here? As I haven't been able to find it


I thought they meant the link that is posted at the bottom of all of Noushka's posts, though I could be wrong and there might be another.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

grandad said:


> If it was left to nature, how would the world feed itself?


In the way it did in the millions of years before humans existed.

eta - and judging by the amount of starving people in the world today, surely you can't mean to argue that human beings are better at feeding the world than nature?


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> I must admit I was thinking more of cultures such as in the Philippines, where dogs are kept in horrendous conditions prior to being sold for food, rather than cultures who are so poor they will kill and eat domesticated animals because it's free.
> 
> I can see that there is a completely different set of ethics involved - but honestly and truthfully, in my opinion the person who kills and eats a domesticated animal because he is hungry and it is free, is morally and ethically far more evolved than the person who shoots for fun in a set up "shoot" - even if said person does manage to salve his conscience by telling himself that the birds will be used to garnish the tables of people who might like the taste of what he has killed after he has finished enjoying himself.


I personally don't have a conscience on that issue. I've taken lambs, pigs, steers, chickens to slaughter. I have shot game birds, wild fowl, pigeons, rabbit and hares and eaten everything either shot by me or killed by the slaughterman. I can hand on heart say that the animals have all had a good life and as natural as possible.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

grandad said:


> I personally don't have a conscience on that issue. I've taken lambs, pigs, steers, chickens to slaughter. I have shot game birds, wild fowl, pigeons, rabbit and hares and eaten everything either shot by me or killed by the slaughterman. I can hand on heart say that the animals have all had a good life and as natural as possible.


Until you killed them.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> I must admit I was thinking more of cultures such as in the Philippines, where dogs are kept in horrendous conditions prior to being sold for food, rather than cultures who are so poor they will kill and eat domesticated animals because it's free.
> 
> I can see that there is a completely different set of ethics involved - but honestly and truthfully, in my opinion the person who kills and eats a domesticated animal because he is hungry and it is free, is morally and ethically far more evolved than the person who shoots for fun in a set up "shoot" - even if said person does manage to salve his conscience by telling himself that the birds will be used to garnish the tables of people who might like the taste of what he has killed after he has finished enjoying himself.


No, sorrry, but I have to disagree. It might be right if we lived in a country as large as Africa, but we don't, so not only do we have to find ways of making a living in rural areas, but with the focus on conservation, it has to be well managed, particularly with all the negative focus, which no doubt, you will have seen on this thread. No successes about how black grouse are making a come back, no success about grey partridge being protected and numbers increasing, all focus is on what's wrong with this industry, rather than what's right.



Elles said:


> I thought they meant the link that is posted at the bottom of all of Noushka's posts, though I could be wrong and there might be another.


No, it's further back in the thread, it's a LACS video I believe (if that's the one I'm thinking of) and I'm afraid I have no respect for them and wouldn't waste my time watchinganything they produce. I posted a link to their mismanagement of a deer 'reserve' at Baronsdown, earlier in the thread. LACS are despicable, and need to up their game tremendouslyh to be credible.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Noushka, I'm sorry but no-one I know is associated with anything I wouldn't want to be associated with, I haven't watched the u-tube clip but I am vehemently against LACS for a number of reasons. I wish more people understood just how much some put into the care and welfare of their birds, where they're sourced from, which for those I know involved with shoots, they support local suppliers, not imported (not sure how those import figures work, unless they relate to large commercial shoots or shoot towers, neither of which I like).





simplysardonic said:


> Is the link posted on here? As I haven't been able to find it


Elles right its the one in my signature


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> In the way it did in the millions of years before humans existed.
> 
> eta - and judging by the amount of starving people in the world today, surely you can't mean to argue that human beings are better at feeding the world than nature?


Actually could be a new reality TV programme. Get some city folk, put them in a forest for a month and see how they get on. 

This country has about 4/5days worth of food to feed itself. Stop all the imports for a month and stop harvesting the crops (i include livestock and game as crop) and you'd find out.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Elles said:


> I thought they meant the link that is posted at the bottom of all of Noushka's posts, though I could be wrong and there might be another.


Just watched it, I didn't realise who Capt Watson was, but I know about Sea Shepherd & their amazing work


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Voltaire said:


> I've only read about 5 pages of this thread, that is enough! I can not be bothered to sift through 45 pages lol
> 
> Anyway, my thoughts are, as long as it's done sensibly I'm all for it. I would much prefer to eat a piece of meat that had a few hours ago been flying around a field, than a piece of meat that had been in a battery farm.
> 
> ...


In answer to your questions, it disgusts me that any creature is kept in battery conditions....and im afraid millions of game birds used for breeding are also kept just that way.....so non of its okay full stop imo.

game birds are only sustainable because they are intensively farmed!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

simplysardonic said:


> Just watched it, I didn't realise who Capt Watson was, but I know about Sea Shepherd & their amazing work


I agree they are amazing and so brave....hes one of my heros SS xx


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Sorry Noushka, I can't agree with Captain Paul Watson's view of things, watched the first minute of the video, which focussed on poor shooting, and tries to promote this as the norm, when it simply isn't. 

Edited to add, just had a peek at a little more about this guy, no surprises then why he's posted this video, and the biased focus


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

grandad said:


> Actually could be a new reality TV programme. Get some city folk, put them in a forest for a month and see how they get on.
> 
> This country has about 4/5days worth of food to feed itself. Stop all the imports for a month and stop harvesting the crops (i include livestock and game as crop) and you'd find out.


You're changing the parameters - you originally spoke about the world. Of course this country can't sustain itself - liberalisation and globalisation policies have turned parts of the planet into a "world farm" for a minority of global consumers, including this country. Globally, there is no food shortage - but politics stops it getting to many of the people who are starving - ie it is humans who cause starvation, not nature.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> In answer to your questions, it disgusts me that any creature is kept in battery conditions....and im afraid millions of game birds used for breeding are also kept just that way.....so non of its okay full stop imo.
> 
> game birds are only sustainable because they are intensively farmed!


I wondered why there's been such a massive increase in pheasants & red legged partridges in the local area the last few years & wondered if this has anything to do with that?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Sorry Noushka, I can't agree with Captain Paul Watson's view of things, watched the first minute of the video, which focussed on poor shooting, and tries to promote this as the norm, when it simply isn't.
> 
> Edited to add, just had a peek at a little more about this guy, no surprises then why he's posted this video, and the biased focus


ive seen a fair few 'poor shots' myself, so it cant be too uncommon, but however they were killed i'd still feel sick to my stomach that someone snuffed out their lives in the name of 'sport'.

yes of course hes biased because he feels empathy and compassion for all animals lol.... to me hes a hero, he risks his life to save whales and hes saved and campaigned to save numerous other creatures.......like wolves


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> ive seen a fair few 'poor shots' myself, so it cant be too uncommon, but however they were killed i'd still feel sick to my stomach that someone snuffed out their lives in the name of 'sport'.
> 
> yes of course hes biased because he feels empathy and compassion for all animals lol.... to me hes a hero, he risks his life to save whales and hes saved and campaigned to save numerous other creatures.......like wolves


I've not seen many poor shots tbh, but I find it disheartening that you feel that those who respect a clean kill, don't respect the bird or animal they are shooting, or that you feel it's commonplace for poor shooting to take place, it isnt' ime. I'm not biased, I love and respect all animals, and yet somehow I'm made to be the bad buy because I believe we, as humans, are hunters. And I don't accept the modern way of society where this is wrapped up conveniently in clingfilm and any respect is taken away from the animal or bird that's died.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Elles said:


> What happens to the birds that are shot and killed?
> 
> If the birds are eaten, where would people get the birds from if shooting was banned?
> 
> ...


They already are. Restaurants shoot the carcases because people expect to find lead shot in them



Elles said:


> Would banning shooting as a sport improve the lot of the game-bird in the UK?


Without shooting there wouldn't be many game birds. Pheasant and partridge wouldn't be put down, grouse moors wouldn't be managed


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

Watched the video

*Captain *- of a sailing vessel of which I have the utmost admiration for the *real *work it does

*Killers *- err no, hunters of game more like. Killers is a word, as is murder, applied to humanity not what appears in this video.

*Petty slaughter* - When endangered wildlife is killed in the name of entertainment .... ps game birds (pertaining to those raised in the UK) were not on the endangered wildlife list when I last looked.

*Bandwagon *- the word I'd use for those that equate the raising and shooting of game birds with unnecessary suffering and the slaughter of wildlife. Game birds have a much higher chance of avoiding death than a chicken.

An awful lot of the countryside that the majority of the public appreciate (visually or physically) looks the way it does because of the behind the scenes needs of the game being raised on that land.

ps- I don't shoot but bloody well enjoy seeing mine and my dogs hard work in training being paid of with the collection of the dead and swift collection and dispatch of the ailing/wounded. Those that escape this are either fodder for the local wildlife or live to see another day. Not many industries where an 80% failure rate would be accepted or even tolerated, that is only 20% of the birds raised are ever shot and collected.

pps - yes I eat meat, but draw the line at domesticated animals ie dog & cat, and even parrots (not that I have one), but that's my society.

*not rising to the bait any more*, we are in danger of entering a veggie/meat eater debate


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I've not seen many poor shots tbh, but I find it disheartening that you feel that those who respect a clean kill, don't respect the bird or animal they are shooting, or that you feel it's commonplace for poor shooting to take place, it isnt' ime. I'm not biased, I love and respect all animals, and yet somehow I'm made to be the bad buy because I believe we, as humans, are hunters. And I don't accept the modern way of society where this is wrapped up conveniently in clingfilm and any respect is taken away from the animal or bird that's died.


I think respecting and feeling empathy for an animal are two different things, the only way i can maybe describe how i see things differently is that i physically _feel_ for an animal, so if we swapped a fox for a dog or a pheasant for, using Setter Gals example, a parrot....and they were killed in the name of sport, you'd understand why some of us _feel_ the way we do?. ..could we be different because some of us see all creatures as individuals?... the same as we do our pets..i dunno.



Irish Setter Gal said:


> Watched the video
> 
> *Captain *- of a sailing vessel of which I have the utmost admiration for the *real *work it does
> 
> ...


Setter Gal yes the released birds have a chance, but what about the birds used for breeding of which a huge number are kept in appaling battery conditions?, even BASC are concerned about their welfare....and our endangered wildlife is dying all the time due to the persecution by some gamekeepers....the stunning Hen Harrier is on the verge of extinction in the UK...so indirectly endangered wildlife is killed in the name of entertainment.

I dont think anyone on here has a problem with hunting animals for meat per se, nor the killing of animals so long as theyre reared in an ethical manner and killed as humanely as possible...im practically vegan now and i know i dont...of course i'd love to see a day when no animals were killed...but thats not very realistic 

I would imagine Captain Watson believes all his work is real, its just that he feels the same empathy and compassion for All creatures....i think my signature says it all really...... Life is to be cherished, protected, defended and championed, not to be wantonly and cruelly destroyed, and certainly not for so frail an excuse as pleasure or sport. Captain Paul Watson


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

simplysardonic said:


> I wondered why there's been such a massive increase in pheasants & red legged partridges in the local area the last few years & wondered if this has anything to do with that?


oh dont know how i missed this:eek6: sorry SS x

yes i would definately say so, 40 million gamebirds (30 to 35 million pheasants and 5 to 10 million partridges) are estimated to be released each year in Great Britain for shooting.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Irish Setter Gal said:


> *Killers *- err no, hunters of game more like. Killers is a word, as is murder, applied to humanity not what appears in this video.


Err no - a killer is someone who kills. You may prefer not to use the word killer in order to salve your conscience about supportng this kind of slaughter, but a hunter kills animals: ergo he is a killer.



Irish Setter Gal said:


> *Petty slaughter* - When endangered wildlife is killed in the name of entertainment .... ps game birds (pertaining to those raised in the UK) were not on the endangered wildlife list when I last looked.


They are according to Hawksport and SleepingLion. Someone has their facts wrong somewhere.



Irish Setter Gal said:


> An awful lot of the countryside that the majority of the public appreciate (visually or physically) looks the way it does because of the behind the scenes needs of the game being raised on that land.


As most shoots take place on private land, I doubt that very much. A great deal of the countryide that the majority of people appreciate looks that way because of arable farming and dairy farming.



Irish Setter Gal said:


> pps - yes I eat meat, but draw the line at domesticated animals ie dog & cat, and even parrots (not that I have one), but that's my society.


No double standards there then 

If you lived in the Philippines where eating domesticated dogs is part of their soiciety, how would you fit that into your ethics?



Irish Setter Gal said:


> *not rising to the bait any more*, we are in danger of entering a veggie/meat eater debate


Not at all - I'm a meat eater, but I prefer to eat meat that has been raised and slaughtered humanely, not hunted and not factory farmed.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I've not seen many poor shots tbh, but I find it disheartening that you feel that those who respect a clean kill, don't respect the bird or animal they are shooting, or that you feel it's commonplace for poor shooting to take place, it isnt' ime. I'm not biased, I love and respect all animals, and yet somehow I'm made to be the bad buy because I believe we, as humans, are hunters. And I don't accept the modern way of society where this is wrapped up conveniently in clingfilm and any respect is taken away from the animal or bird that's died.


See, this issue of respect is where I have my greatest difficulty.

I understand completely and agree with what you mean about pre-packaged meat in supermarkets being far removed from (in most cases) the horrendous life and slaughter of the animal involved, that the animal has lived and died in dreadful conditions with no dignity, no respect, and no thought about it other than it being a commodity. I understand and agree that people are either oblivious to this, or feel that somehow, magically, it doesn't happen to the meat that they bought today.

I also understand that someone who kills an animal in order to eat can raise that animal and respect both its life and its death in the circle of life.

But for me the difficulty comes in when animals are raised so that people can hunt them for sport. Yes, some of the animals killed will appear in the food chain afterwards, but that is an incidental "bonus" that provides those who enjoy killing animals with an excuse for the killing. I find that attitude as hard to equate with respect for the animal as I do for factory farming.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> .the stunning Harris Hawk is on the verge of extinction in the UK..


I presume you have mixed your species up


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

hawksport said:


> I presume you have mixed your species up


omg well spotted...hen harrier


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> You're changing the parameters - you originally spoke about the world. Of course this country can't sustain itself - liberalisation and globalisation policies have turned parts of the planet into a "world farm" for a minority of global consumers, including this country. Globally, there is no food shortage - but politics stops it getting to many of the people who are starving - ie it is humans who cause starvation, not nature.


Beg your pardon, nut oyur the one that mentioned "nature"


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

"The unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible." ? Not no more. 

Ban foxhunting, I hear you cry.

Yes, they say, consider it done. 
The quarry weren't for eating, 'twas just for fun.

Ban shooting now, I hear you cry. 

The disrespectful killers, who say they're kind, 
I think they're not, I think they lied.

But no they say, the quarry is food, 
we mean no harm, we only do good. 

That's poor excuse I hear you mutter, 
you kill for fun, you must be a nutter.

I'm not a poet, but I don't yet know it.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

grandad said:


> Beg your pardon, nut oyur the one that mentioned "nature"


I said nature could take care of itself.
You asked how nature could feed the _*world*_.
I replied that it would do it in the way that it has always done.
You said that this _*country*_ could not sustain itself more than five days.
I replied that we were originally talking about the world, not this country, and that the world could feed itself if it were not for world politics.

Clear now?


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2011)

wooooowwwwww this is still going :thumbup:


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elzz said:


> wooooowwwwww this is still going :thumbup:


wonder who'll have the last word


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> wonder who'll have the last word


i bet £20 a mod :thumbup:


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elzz said:


> i bet £20 a mod :thumbup:


aw i forgot about them we'll all have to be very good:scared:


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2011)

there will never be a last word....as those that do it will always seek to justify it!.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> oh dont know how i missed this:eek6: sorry SS x
> 
> yes i would definately say so, 40 million gamebirds (30 to 35 million pheasants and 5 to 10 million partridges) are estimated to be released each year in Great Britain for shooting.


I know for a fact that many are getting hit by cars, in my 10 minutes travelling along the A47 to get to college I see about 7 or 8 pheasants at the side of the road & there are quite a few hit in my village where cars are supposed to travel at 30mph


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

simplysardonic said:


> I know for a fact that many are getting hit by cars, in my 10 minutes travelling along the A47 to get to college I see about 7 or 8 pheasants at the side of the road & there are quite a few hit in my village where cars are supposed to travel at 30mph


I've noticed this too - they seem to have no "road sense" for want of a better word in the way that other wild creatures have. I know lots of wild creatures get killed on roads, but around here game birds seem to have a death wish - they will begin to stroll across a road even when a car is approaching. Now it may be quite unconnected - but I can't help wondering whther or not the fact that they have been reared in cages and then let out to be shot has an affect on their inability to learn about - or learn to sense - danger. Other species of wild birds don't seem to have the same problem as the game birds.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> I've noticed this too - they seem to have no "road sense" for want of a better word in the way that other wild creatures have. I know lots of wild creatures get killed on roads, but around here game birds seem to have a death wish - they will begin to stroll across a road even when a car is approaching. Now it may be quite unconnected - but I can't help wondering whther or not the fact that they have been reared in cages and then let out to be shot has an affect on their inability to learn about - or learn to sense - danger. Other species of wild birds don't seem to have the same problem as the game birds.


the ones here are all wild game and have never been in cages, yet there is always a pheasant or peacock in the middle of the road, oh and badgers cats dogs hedgehogs foxes other small birds usually get eaten by the bigger birds so u dont see them


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

I yo do consider nature for a moment.

All carnivores kill to eat. An amazonian indian will kill to eat. The frist humans killed to eat and continue to do so. 
Then they would get together to talk about the hunt. It's all natural. The world can't sustain itself so animals were bred to sustain life. I doesn't matter if it's monkey's, wild pig, zebra, buffalo or seals. An animal has to be killed in order for someone to eat it. the slaughterman, the butcher, the farmer, the eskimo, the indian, all kill so human life can continue. Some animals are bred and kept in captivity, some are bred and let out into the wild, some are left to breed naturally.
It's all part of the food chain that sustains life and has been going on for 1000's of years. 
In the contryside, its a way of life, its an economy, It's commercial, but above all it has to be humane. 
Life dies, so that humans can eat, even if its the common slug, or a variety of insects. (killed by pesticides) the pressure is on and the shooting of game is part of the cycle. 
i wish the vision for feeding the world was as natural as we could get it. But the truth is, it isn't and never will be. The demands are just to great. Farmers have to earn a living and produce food. Famrers in thi coutnry are under pressure to produce cheap food and quickly. The pressure (according tot he supermarkets) is from the consumer. I wish all farms could be like this one and central to the community. 
churchfarmardeley.co.uk
This is a vision I wish every one would embrace and sign up to, but the reality is, the financial struggle to maintain it. The diversification needed, to earn a living is wide and one has to be creative to sustain the way of life. 
One of the diversifications is game shooting. 
The shooting community, understands the cylce, understands the need to put food into the food chain and is respectful of the way of life for both the game and the farmer. There is a 40% chance a bird will survive and go feral. And as with all wildlife, it then takes it's chances. the fact that some are killed by foxes or raptors is once again part of the cycle. Some are killed on roads, but you can't blame the farmer for that, that is the growth of urbanisation, of the countryside and the increas of cars on the roads. 
If you wish to describe me as a hunter and a killer, so be it. 
My conscience is clear.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

grandad said:


> I yo do consider nature for a moment.
> 
> All carnivores kill to eat. An amazonian indian will kill to eat. The frist humans killed to eat and continue to do so.
> Then they would get together to talk about the hunt. It's all natural. The world can't sustain itself so animals were bred to sustain life. I doesn't matter if it's monkey's, wild pig, zebra, buffalo or seals. An animal has to be killed in order for someone to eat it. the slaughterman, the butcher, the farmer, the eskimo, the indian, all kill so human life can continue. Some animals are bred and kept in captivity, some are bred and let out into the wild, some are left to breed naturally.
> ...


Amazonian Indians live in harmony with their environment and until we came along their rainforest home was healthy, a balanced eco-system with every living thing thriving!, same with the plains Indians, they respected everything from bison to wolves and everything in between, also the water and the land, they didnt rape and pillage it for themselves as we do.

does all the shooting community know that millions of birds are kept in battery conditions to produce poults and eggs to be reared for shoots?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

simplysardonic said:


> I know for a fact that many are getting hit by cars, in my 10 minutes travelling along the A47 to get to college I see about 7 or 8 pheasants at the side of the road & there are quite a few hit in my village where cars are supposed to travel at 30mph


same here, we took the dogs for a run earlier and the road is littered with dead pheasants, they certainly dont act like animals born in the wild...poor things.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> same here, we took the dogs for a run earlier and the road is littered with dead pheasants, they certainly dont act like animals born in the wild...poor things.


So you've never seen badgers, deer, foxes, cats, crows, rooks, hedgehogs run over in the road. And I do believe humans are knocked over now and again to.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> same here, we took the dogs for a run earlier and the road is littered with dead pheasants, they certainly dont act like animals born in the wild...poor things.


that's because they are no more wild than your average battery hen ... the bucolic picture of man pitting his wits against a wild animal in it's natural habitat is just RUBBISH - game birds are intensively reared and then released specifically for the sport - up to the point of their release they will have been totally reliant on man for their food and even if they are not killed by the guns they have about as much chance of survival in the wild as my own domesticated chickens and ducks do -

the true nature of this and other blood sports have been largely kept hidden from general knowledge ( how many of you knew that most game birds are intensively farmed ? ) - but the internet has shed light on this so called sport - and we can now see the truth.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

grandad said:


> So you've never seen badgers, deer, foxes, cats, crows, rooks, hedgehogs run over in the road. And I do believe humans are knocked over now and again to.


errm yes ive seen those on the roads aswell, but never in the concentrated numbers ive seen dead pheasants.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Amazonian Indians live in harmony with their environment and until we came along their rainforest home was healthy, a balanced eco-system with every living thing thriving!, same with the plains Indians, they respected everything from bison to wolves and everything in between, also the water and the land, they didnt rape and pillage it for themselves as we do.
> 
> does all the shooting community know that millions of birds are kept in battery conditions to produce poults and eggs to be reared for shoots?


I'm sure the shooting community is aware of certain commrcial ventures that produce eggs and poults in battery conditions, just like they would be aware of the same for chickens, turkeys, ducks, pigs, cows and any other species that is grown to sustain the food chain. I think the shooting community probably wouldn't condone these condition either, (like it has been said on here by numerous people) and has it has been pointed out, the bodies that represent the shooting community are at the forefront of the discussion to bring this type of venture under stricter control. 
And as for respect for the land, the water, the wildlife, I doubt if there is any shooter in the country that could be accused of raping and pillaging the land. 
Supermarkets, the consumer, by way of pressure on the requiremnt for cheap food and lots of it, MIGHT BE. 
I admire your stance, please tell me you buy all your food from an organic farmer, with ethical ways of producing food and livestock. That even though your household budget might not stretch to it, your principles drive you to purchase your groceries this way. That if you are a meat eater, that you make a chicken last for 3/4 meals or a joint of meat do the same. That you never frequent a fast food restuarant or any resturant that doesn't subscribe to the organic way of life. That all your imported food is fairtrade. That you use, bio friendly products for cleaning and washing, You never use make up, derived from animal by products, or purchase clothes from shops that use sweat labour, or clothes that are made of man made fibre, or from animal by products. that you are a volunteer for an organisation like the NT, RSPB or volunteer to work in the countryside, menading headges or in forestry management or soem toehr good cause. 
And that you are conscious of your road miles when going to shop and that your recycle everything you can. 
If you do, then beleive it or not, we are of the same mind set.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Bijou said:


> that's because they are no more wild than your average battery hen ... the bucolic picture of man pitting his wits against a wild animal in it's natural habitat is just RUBBISH - game birds are intensively reared and then released specifically for the sport - up to the point of their release they will have been totally reliant on man for their food and even if they are not killed by the guns they have about as much chance of survival in the wild as my own domesticated chickens and ducks do -
> 
> the true nature of this and other blood sports have been largely kept hidden from general knowledge ( how many of you knew that most game birds are intensively farmed ? ) - but the internet has shed light on this so called sport - and we can now see the truth.


they certainly dont behave like true wild game, my dogs have even caught them...and theyve caught and eaten a partridge...all whilst running in harness

i think the shooting lobby like to have us believe its an ethical source of meat, when if you delve deep enough its far from it.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

grandad said:


> I'm sure the shooting community is aware of certain commrcial ventures that produce eggs and poults in battery conditions, just like they would be aware of the same for chickens, turkeys, ducks, pigs, cows and any other species that is grown to sustain the food chain. I think the shooting community probably wouldn't condone these condition either, (like it has been said on here by numerous people) and has it has been pointed out, the bodies that represent the shooting community are at the forefront of the discussion to bring this type of venture under stricter control.
> And as for respect for the land, the water, the wildlife, I doubt if there is any shooter in the country that could be accused of raping and pillaging the land.
> Supermarkets, the consumer, by way of pressure on the requiremnt for cheap food and lots of it, MIGHT BE.
> I admire oyur stance, please tell me you buy all your food from an organic farmer, with ethical ways of producing food and livestock. That even though your household budget might not stretch to it, your principles drive you to purchase your groceries this way. That if you are a meat eater, that you make a chicken last for 3/4 meals. That you never frequent a fast food restuarant or any resturant that doesn't subscribe to the organic way of life. That al your imported food is fairtrade.
> ...


only BASC were at the forefront of pushing for better welfare, but its not going to happen now is it.... the Countryside Alliance, other shooting organisations, and the Game Farmers Assiciation lobbied this government until they withdrew the new code of practice grrrrrr...maybe hunters like yourself could put the pressure back on this government??

i dont eat meat or dairy, my oh only eats fish now(all from sustainable sources i might add), i buy free range produce from my local butcher because i know it comes from local farms for my Sons, but they get a lot of vegan meals with us, i try to shop as ethically as possible, but i know im far from perfect, i just do my best.

ive said my bit on the impact releasing millions of gamebirds has on the environment and the impact on wildlife, particularly predators, im afraid theres no harmony with the environment, non of it can be compared with the Amazonian Indians and their way of hunting.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

grandad said:


> So you've never seen badgers, deer, foxes, cats, crows, rooks, hedgehogs run over in the road. And I do believe humans are knocked over now and again to.


TBH there's enough wood pigeons, big slow & cumbersome things they are bless 'em, yet the numbers of them hit round here is small compared to the number of pheasants, if I were doing a research paper on the subject I'd be interested in the correlation between intensively reared released game & traffic collisions


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

simplysardonic said:


> TBH there's enough wood pigeons, big slow & cumbersome things they are bless 'em, yet the numbers of them hit round here is small compared to the number of pheasants, if I were doing a research paper on the subject I'd be interested in the correlation between intensively reared released game & traffic collisions


Do you think that might be because pigeons fly and pheasants walk?


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

hawksport said:


> Do you think that might be because pigeons fly and pheasants walk?


I suppose it could be a factor, as would the type of road, though I find it more likely that pigeons sit on the road than pheasants, makes me inwardly cringe when people drive their cars at them as they leave it til the last minute to take off. Compared to the number of rabbits as well there are still far more pheasant carcases than any other species. My previous post was just a thought, I doubt the government would give me a grant to research it


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

I've gone for 2 days and it's gone from 13 pages to 51! 

Wow...


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> TBH there's enough wood pigeons, big slow & cumbersome things they are bless 'em, yet the numbers of them hit round here is small compared to the number of pheasants, if I were doing a research paper on the subject I'd be interested in the correlation between intensively reared released game & traffic collisions


The pigeons in trafalager square hardly ever get hit.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

simplysardonic said:


> TBH there's enough wood pigeons, big slow & cumbersome things they are bless 'em, yet the numbers of them hit round here is small compared to the number of pheasants, if I were doing a research paper on the subject I'd be interested in the correlation between intensively reared released game & traffic collisions


It would be interesting.

Another research paper I'd be interested in is the correlation between the number of intensively reared game birds, the number that are hunted and killed, and the number that actually find their way into the food chain. I suspect the latter figure would be much smaller than the other two, given the following:

_Notably, the February 1, 2001 leading article in Country Life stated that 'about 13 million pheasants were shot during this past season, which is probably twice as many as the market can absorb'. In other words, half the birds shot are not eaten .......... over-supply has led to shoots being forced to give away their bags, or worse still, bury their surplus'._

Animal Aid: Fowl Play - The killing of pheasants and the draft Animal Welfare Bill 2004

Sort of scuppers the "We are not killers, we are just part of the food chain" excuse though, doesn't it?


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

grandad said:


> The pigeons in trafalager square hardly ever get hit.


I believe feral pigeons come from rock doves, mostly here we get wood pigeons, also, they are not released after being captive bred, I would imagine intensively reared pheasants wouldn't be as savvy as wild ones


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

simplysardonic said:


> I believe feral pigeons come from rock doves, mostly here we get wood pigeons, also, they are not released after being captive bred, I would imagine intensively reared pheasants wouldn't be as savvy as wild ones


it would seem our suppositions are correct:

_"....... roughly half the released birds do not survive long enough to be shot. As noted earlier, this high attrition rate results in large part from what we refer to as their 'institutionalised' start in life. Especially in the first weeks, the released birds are incompetent compared with truly wild birds. They are also comparatively feeble, less able to find food for themselves and thus more prone than wild birds to disease and starvation."_

Animal Aid: Fowl Play - The killing of pheasants and the draft Animal Welfare Bill 2004


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> it would seem our suppositions are correct:
> 
> _"....... roughly half the released birds do not survive long enough to be shot. As noted earlier, this high attrition rate results in large part from what we refer to as their 'institutionalised' start in life. Especially in the first weeks, the released birds are incompetent compared with truly wild birds. They are also comparatively feeble, less able to find food for themselves and thus more prone than wild birds to disease and starvation."_
> 
> Animal Aid: Fowl Play - The killing of pheasants and the draft Animal Welfare Bill 2004


just dreadfull......still as long as people enjoy shooting them eh!:mad2:


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> it would seem our suppositions are correct:
> 
> _"....... roughly half the released birds do not survive long enough to be shot. As noted earlier, this high attrition rate results in large part from what we refer to as their 'institutionalised' start in life. Especially in the first weeks, the released birds are incompetent compared with truly wild birds. They are also comparatively feeble, less able to find food for themselves and thus more prone than wild birds to disease and starvation."_
> 
> Animal Aid: Fowl Play - The killing of pheasants and the draft Animal Welfare Bill 2004


That statement alone shows the complete ignorance by the author of what actually happens


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

JennyClifford said:


> That statement alone shows the complete ignorance by the author of what actually happens


And yet it seems to mirror exactly what people on here have observed for themselves.

However, I am aware that not everything written about animals on the net or in the news is true (that's one thing I can thank JH and PDE for!) so if you can furnish proof of your statement above, then I'd be happy to read it.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

And the reality of supermarket food/fastfood resturants/retaurants in general

Farm animals - Meat chickens


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2011)

grandad said:


> And the reality of supermarket food/fastfood resturants/retaurants in general
> 
> Farm animals - Meat chickens


2 wrongs dont make a right....why do the pro hunters keep bringing this up,ive not seen anyone try to defend it!


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> 2 wrongs dont make a right....why do the pro hunters keep bringing this up,ive not seen anyone try to defend it!


The POINT we keep trying to make is the welfare of the animal and the good life it is given prior to it being killed for the food chain.

Please tell me you are totally ethical in your purchase of food. You don't use products that contain animal by products? Where do you buy your food from?


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2011)

grandad said:


> The POINT we keep trying to make is the welfare of the animal and the good life it is given prior to it being killed for the food chain.
> 
> Please tell me you are totally ethical in your purchase of food. You don't use products that contain animal by products? Where do you buy your food from?


listen,im not perfect,never said i am...i try to do my best..i buy my meat from, a butcher....now that may in your eyes make me a hypocrite...but id rather that than take enjoyment out of killing an animal!


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

grandad said:


> The POINT we keep trying to make is the *welfare of the animal and the good life it is given prior to it being killed for the food chain. *
> 
> Please tell me you are totally ethical in your purchase of food. You don't use products that contain animal by products? Where do you buy your food from?


But if these animals are being intensively reared for the purpose of being shot surely it's not all that different from intensive farming for the purpose of being slaughtered, even if it's only the breeding part that's intensive it would be causing suffering for the breeding stock, I don't know how commonplace this practice is mind you


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

grandad said:


> The POINT we keep trying to make is the welfare of the animal and the good life it is given prior to it being killed for the food chain.


And the POINT we keep trying to make is that the above is just not true.

Game birds are intensively reared; they are released into a life where they cannot survive because they have not learnt the skills; the 50% or 60% who don't die of starvation or get killed by predators or knocked down on roads are then shot by hunters - and of those only about half end up in the food chain; the rest are buried because there is no use for them.

So they do not have a good life before they are killed, and only a quarter to a third of these intensively farmed birds end up in the food chain.

What you write above is merely an excuse used to salve the consciences of people who think killing animals is a sport. You may fool yourself - but you are not fooling us.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> But if these animals are being intensively reared for the purpose of being shot surely it's not all that different from intensive farming for the purpose of being slaughtered, even if it's only the breeding part that's intensive it would be causing suffering for the breeding stock, I don't know how commonplace this practice is mind you





Spellweaver said:


> And the POINT we keep trying to make is that the above is just not true.
> 
> Game birds are intensively reared; they are released into a life where they cannot survive because they have not learnt the skills; the 50% or 60% who don't die of starvation or get killed by predators or knocked down on roads are then shot by hunters - and of those only about half end up in the food chain; the rest are buried because there is no use for them.
> 
> ...


You will always listen to the hype rather than to those that know, no point talking any more


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Wow, half the birds die before being shot? Now then, if they are eaten by foxes, is that ok? 

I don't know any shoot that would put down birds and expect to loose half of them, absolutely unrealistic.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> listen,im not perfect,never said i am...i try to do my best..i buy my meat from, a butcher....now that may in your eyes make me a hypocrite...but id rather that than take enjoyment out of killing an animal!


Easy get out, isn't it when someone else does the killing for your pleasure. And remember that when you are enjoying your glass of red and joking and chatting with your friends. The battery chicken you are eating had it's life, cut short, because it was a laying chicken and it's productivity from laying 300 eggs a year lessens after it's first year, and because its less productive, it's sent to slaughter. Or the other battery meat that may be aforning your plate. And the deoderant you sprayed on your self after your shower has animal by products in it, from battery farmed animals. 
No your not perfect. Some of us are trying to be, to animals and animal welfare, and spend time consulting with the farming community to that end. 
I shoot to kill, I eat what I shoot, what i don't shoot is sold to a game dealer, who sells it to a butcher, who sells it to you, so you can have your pleasure eating it with your friends and family. 
No your hands aren't bloody, but it is your type that keep the battery farms (if you can cal them farms) in business. congratulations, you are at the forefront of eveything that is wrong with modern farming society today. 
I take great resentment in being tarred with a generalised brush. The brush that seems to say that "all" shooting people subscribe to battery farmed game birds. It's not the case. Some are reared on small farms and only enough are reared for the season. Yes i take pleasure in raising birds, feeding them and releasing them and soting them. I probably get about 30 a year. It is great fun, It is a way of life for me. AND ITS NEVER GONNA CHANGE.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

JennyClifford said:


> You will always listen to the hype rather than to those that know, no point talking any more


But if those who know - ie yourself - won't furnish us with the proof to back up your statements, how can we do anything other than believe what we read? If you throw a hissy fit and say "there's no point in talking", instead of saying "you're wrong because .... and the proof of what I'm saying is ...." then all you are doing is giving the impression that you can't back up your statements because you are wrong.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

grandad said:


> Yes *i take pleasure *in raising birds, feeding them and releasing them and soting them. I probably get about 30 a year. *It is great fun*, It is a way of life for me. .


At last, the truth!


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> At last, the truth!


I don't think anybody was hiding the truth were they?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Wow, half the birds die before being shot? Now then, if they are eaten by foxes, is that ok?


No. If they were naturally wild birds it would be part of the cycle of life. But these poor birds are at a disadvantage because of what has been done to them by humans; and _*that*_ is the part that is wrong.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

grandad said:


> I don't think anybody was hiding the truth were they?


Yes, by pretending they hunted as part of the food chain when in reality they do it for fun.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2011)

grandad said:


> Easy get out, isn't it when someone else does the killing for your pleasure. And remember that when you are enjoying your glass of red and joking and chatting with your friends. The battery chicken you are eating had it's life, cut short, because it was a laying chicken and it's productivity from laying 300 eggs a year lessens after it's first year, and because its less productive, it's sent to slaughter. Or the other battery meat that may be aforning your plate. And the deoderant you sprayed on your self after your shower has animal by products in it, from battery farmed animals.
> No your not perfect. Some of us are trying to be, to animals and animal welfare, and spend time consulting with the farming community to that end.
> I shoot to kill, I eat what I shoot, what i don't shoot is sold to a game dealer, who sells it to a butcher, who sells it to you, so you can have your pleasure eating it with your friends and family.
> No your hands aren't bloody, but it is your type that keep the battery farms (if you can cal them farms) in business. congratulations, you are at the forefront of eveything that is wrong with modern farming society today.
> I take great resentment in being tarred with a generalised brush. The brush that seems to say that "all" shooting people subscribe to battery farmed game birds. It's not the case. Some are reared on small farms and only enough are reared for the season. Yes i take pleasure in raising birds, feeding them and releasing them and soting them. I probably get about 30 a year. It is great fun, It is a way of life for me. AND ITS NEVER GONNA CHANGE.


you miss te point so much its increible....its not about what people eat...even where it comes from...my point is....and will always be...i hate those who kill animals for fun..clearly there are other issues surrounding farming of animals for cheap food...but thats another issue!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> Yes, by pretending they hunted as part of the food chain when in reality they do it for fun.


But SL and myself don't hunt


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## Gragface (Oct 8, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> Yes, by pretending they hunted as part of the food chain when in reality they do it for fun.


Surely its abit of both unless Im being dim. It doesnt have to be one or the other does it?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

JennyClifford said:


> But SL and myself don't hunt


But you support those who do and see nothing wrong in killing animals for pleasure.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> But you support those who do and see nothing wrong in killing animals for pleasure.


I'd actually be horrified about anyone killing purely for pleasure.
I hate the act of killing anything but I live in the real world and have actually killed with my bare hands, suffering creatures


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2011)

JennyClifford said:


> I'd actually be horrified about anyone killing purely for pleasure.
> I hate the act of killing anything but I live in the real world and have actually killed with my bare hands, suffering creatures


these people do kill for pleasure..they even call it a sport pervertedly!:mad2:


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Gragface said:


> Surely its abit of both unless Im being dim. It doesnt have to be one or the other does it?


Only about a quarter to a third of game birds intensively farmed so that people can have fun shooting them end up in the food chain. My opinion is that the food chain bit is incidental and used as an excuse by those who get their kicks from shooting animals. If people suddenly stopped eating game birds for some reason, I bet the intensive farming and organised shoots would still go ahead.


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## Gragface (Oct 8, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> these people do kill for pleasure..they even call it a sport pervertedly!:mad2:


They kill for a few reasons dont they rather then just for pleasure? and it is a sport isnt it?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> these people do kill for pleasure..they even call it a sport pervertedly!:mad2:


Well I have met many many and apart from two brothers who absolutely disgusted me, I can quit honestly say that the "pleasure" of the kill is not generally the main driving factor


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2011)

Gragface said:


> They kill for a few reasons dont they rather then just for pleasure? and it is a sport isnt it?


isnt sport just about pleasure?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

JennyClifford said:


> I'd actually be horrified about anyone killing purely for pleasure.
> I hate the act of killing anything but I live in the real world and have actually killed with my bare hands, suffering creatures


Oh sorry, I must have misunderstood. I thought, from your posts on this thread, that you were in favour of organised shoots. I do apologise.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

When you all get off your soap boxes have a read of this..........

Animal Ingredient List A-Z

Someone, somewhere, has killed for your pleasure. and has it been ethically farmed?


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

This thread is kind of getting like a dog chasing it's own tail.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> isnt sport just about pleasure?


So are you saying anyone involved in sport shouldn't enjoy it? So all those premier league footballers should mope around with grumpy expressions, ooh, sorry, they do!


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2011)

grandad said:


> When you all get off your soap boxes have a read of this..........
> 
> Animal Ingredient List A-Z
> 
> Someone, somewhere, has killed for your pleasure. and has it been ethically farmed?


you go out and for a hobby kill animals.....not the same as someone eating food unethically killed is it!


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## Gragface (Oct 8, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> isnt sport just about pleasure?


It depends what the sport it doesnt it? Im sure if it wasnt fun most people wouldnt bother.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So are you saying anyone involved in sport shouldn't enjoy it? So all those premier league footballers should mope around with grumpy expressions, ooh, sorry, they do!


no im saying its called a sport cos they do it for enjoyment


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> no im saying its called a sport cos they do it for enjoyment


so people who are involved with shooting aren't doing it because they enjoy it, they're doing it because they hate it, and the whole ethos behind it?


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I believe sport is also about money Albert



Gemmaa said:


> This thread is kind of getting like a dog chasing it's own tail.


I did mention this last night


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

simplysardonic said:


> I did mention this last night


Great minds.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> you go out and for a hobby kill animals.....not the same as someone eating food unethically killed is it!


If you can live with your conscience, i can live with mine


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Well play nicely now cos I'm off to watch Downton Abbey - and SL ignore this thread and go and look at the video of Koko and All Ball on your apes thread instead - I'm dying to know what your reaction to it is


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> Oh sorry, I must have misunderstood. I thought, from your posts on this thread, that you were in favour of organised shoots. I do apologise.


I am, I know how important to preservation, conservation and the economics of small farms this pastime is.
The fact that I personally can't understand how someone can kill a creature is not part of my opinion. The slaughterhouse man kills, and even the most ethically reared meat you can buy in your cling film wrapped package has been killed.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> Well play nicely now cos I'm off to watch Downton Abbey - and SL ignore this thread and go and look at the video of Koko and All Ball on your apes thread instead - I'm dying to know what your reaction to it is


B*gga, homework


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

JennyClifford said:


> *I am, I know how important to preservation, conservation and the economics of small farms this pastime is.*
> The fact that I personally can't understand how someone can kill a creature is not part of my opinion. The slaughterhouse man kills, and even the most ethically reared meat you can buy in your cling film wrapped package has been killed.


I can appreciate that, I have always lived in the country (well, except when I lived abroad) & am not 'anti' someone shooting for the pot & appreciate conservation efforts made by many of those involved, but I still don't think that intensive rearing of any animal for any reason is in any way ethical & that's what I get the impression most people on here are opposed to, the intensive rearing of pheasants for release for organised shoots.
Though I think this thread's completely lost sight of its original intention, which was about the hypocrisy of a couple of 'anti' hunting individuals who have a twisted idea of retribution, which makes them no better than those that hunt


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

I'd never been on a hunting trip in my life and decided that it was about time I familiarised myself with the experience and all its attached pro's and controversies just the once. 
So I went out and spent a small fortune on the appropriate clothing and footwear. 
I even bought a rifle with telescopic night sights which, the apparatus in itself, has proven to be a invaluable tool for my neighbourhood watch hobby.

Anyways, it turned out that the hunting jacket I had bought with its many pockets and velcro fasteners was the envy of everyone present and I was feeling rather proud, if not smug, with myself until I accidentally brushed up against a Moose and the bloody thing dragged me through 5 miles of Forest before I managed to tear myself free.

Never again!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> I can appreciate that, I have always lived in the country (well, except when I lived abroad) & am not 'anti' someone shooting for the pot & appreciate conservation efforts made by many of those involved, but I still don't think that intensive rearing of any animal for any reason is in any way ethical & that's what I get the impression most people on here are opposed to, the intensive rearing of pheasants for release for organised shoots.
> Though I think this thread's completely lost sight of its original intention, which was about the hypocrisy of a couple of 'anti' hunting individuals who have a twisted idea of retribution, which makes them no better than those that hunt


And don't you think the majority of game shooters are just as against intensive reared birds as you?
There are few shoots in this country that don't worry about the environment, the bird or even those that they employ.
In general these are the bigger shoots that only worry about numbers shot 
Unfortunately these *FEW* shoots make up a large proportion of the number of birds reared.
You must understand that the vast majority of shoots in this country are just not like that and that most of the bad publicity is centered on these few bad apples.


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

How on EARTH can anyone accidentally brush up against a moose???????????? Closest I've ever got was TV.

Beats any accident I ever had and I thought I'd had a few odd things happen. I don't know what impresses me more, brushing up against the moose or the nonchalant way you say it. BRILLIANT!!!


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> isnt sport just about pleasure?


Isn't keeping a dog just about pleasure?
But you're quite happy for animals to be killed to enable that


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2011)

hawksport said:


> Isn't keeping a dog just about pleasure?
> But you're quite happy for animals to be killed to enable that


i accept animals are killed to eat...i dont accept they are killed for peoples pleasure...hobby...sport etc


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> i accept animals are killed to eat...i dont accept they are killed for peoples pleasure...hobby...sport etc


But animals are killed to give you the pleasure/hobby of owning a dog


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2011)

hawksport said:


> But animals are killed to give you the pleasure/hobby of owning a dog


no they are killed to preserve a dogs life....as it needs to eat...no one would die if people stopped killing for fun


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> no they are killed to preserve a dogs life....as it needs to eat...no one would die if people stopped killing for fun


If people stopped owning dogs for pleasure no one would die and animals wouldn't be killed to feed them


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2011)

hawksport said:


> If people stopped owning dogs for pleasure no one would die and animals wouldn't be killed to feed them


law of the jungle...animals die..for others to survive.....i cant tink of any other animal...other than humans..that kill for fun........foxes i hear them say


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> law of the jungle...animals die..for others to survive.....i cant tink of any other animal...other than humans..that kill for fun........foxes i hear them say


So animals being killed for pleasure is ok as long as you don't call it sport


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2011)

hawksport said:


> So animals being killed for pleasure is ok as long as you don't call it sport


whos killing them for pleasure......its for food.....the pleasure is secondry,and not the primary reason for the kill


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> whos killing them for pleasure......its for food.....the pleasure is secondry,and not the primary reason for the kill


Pleasure is the primary reason for you keeping a dog. If dogs weren't kept for pleasure animals wouldn't be killed to feed them. Animals are killed for your pleasure


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> law of the jungle...animals die..for others to survive.....i cant tink of any other animal...other than humans..that kill for fun........foxes i hear them say


Bottle nosed Dolphins kill for fun and they also mate for non mating purposes like us humans do too.. 
Dogs can kill for fun..
Cats play with their food - so thats classed as fun..
Ants kill each other for fun..
Lions will kill young that isn't theirs more to stop that gene spreading but I don't think they feel bad about it.
Cuckoo chicks will hatch in another birds nest then kick the other chicks out.. 
And Chimps..

You might argue that some of these have reasons behind why they kill.. be it revenge, territory or whatever - but they don't exactly feel bad about it and it has to be for pleasure too - taking revenge is pleasurable for the revenge taking person, taking someones land and mates is going to be fun..

So "Only humans kill for fun" isn't really true..


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2011)

hawksport said:


> Pleasure is the primary reason for you keeping a dog. If dogs weren't kept for pleasure animals wouldn't be killed to feed them. Animals are killed for your pleasure


the animal isnt killed because i have a dog.......its cos the dog exists...if we,re being pedantic about it...i didnt breed the dog...i take care of it.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> the animal isnt killed because i have a dog.......its cos the dog exists...if we,re being pedantic about it...i didnt breed the dog...i take care of it.


But if they weren't kept as pets they wouldn't exist in anything like the numbers they do


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2011)

hawksport said:


> But if they weren't kept as pets they wouldn't exist in anything like the numbers they do


maybe not...but im not responsable for breeding....albert would of been eating if id owned him or not......also,i get pleasure from albrt,but thats not the point of his life!


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> maybe not...but im not responsable for breeding....albert would of been eating if id owned him or not......also,i get pleasure from albrt,but thats not the point of his life!


Everyone who owns a dog is supporting breeding


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2011)

hawksport said:


> Everyone who owns a dog is supporting breeding


i think we both know these two things are totally unrelated and different..i understand the point your making...just dont agree with it.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> i think we both know these two things are totally unrelated and different..i understand the point your making...just dont agree with it.


So you think if there was no market for a product the product would still be produced?


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2011)

hawksport said:


> So you think if there was no market for a product the product would still be produced?


im talking about the original point....of course if people didnt by dogs,they wouldnt be bred.......do you think dogs are just here for our pleasure then?


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> im talking about the original point....of course if people didnt by dogs,they wouldnt be bred.......do you think dogs are just here for our pleasure then?


Mine is. Whats yours for?


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2011)

hawksport said:


> Mine is. Whats yours for?


hes a living creature...that im fortunate enough to share my life with....hes not on this planet,just for my pleasure!


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> hes a living creature...that im fortunate enough to share my life with....hes not on this planet,just for my pleasure!


But that's the reason he was bred


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

ozrex said:


> How on EARTH can anyone accidentally brush up against a moose???????????? Closest I've ever got was TV.
> 
> Beats any accident I ever had and I thought I'd had a few odd things happen. I don't know what impresses me more, brushing up against the moose or the nonchalant way you say it. BRILLIANT!!!


Merely an improvised and exaggerated account of a truth. 

It was 4 o' clock one Summer's morning when we were out and about with the Dogs and making our way down to the lake when they decided to do one of their long disappearing acts into the deeper forest.

Walking quietly along through the light and shade of trees the silence was suddenly fractured by a young Moose bursting into view with two very curious Dogs in high pursuit.

Determined to shake off its antagonists at all costs the animal failed to take evasive action when it came face to face with me :scared: and duly knocked me to the ground.

*Ouch! *

The Moose did make good its escape and the Dogs, looking very pleased with themselves, decided to add to my injury and pain by pouncing on me with excitement whilst I tried to gather up my senses.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

grandad said:


> Easy get out, isn't it when someone else does the killing for your pleasure. And remember that when you are enjoying your glass of red and joking and chatting with your friends. The battery chicken you are eating had it's life, cut short,
> I take great resentment in being tarred with a generalised brush. The brush that seems to say that "all" shooting people subscribe to battery farmed game birds. It's not the case. Some are reared on small farms and only enough are reared for the season. Yes i take pleasure in raising birds, feeding them and releasing them and soting them. I probably get about 30 a year. It is great fun, It is a way of life for me. AND ITS NEVER GONNA CHANGE.


yes some might be raised on small farms, but where do they originate from??? you have all ready said that you buy your poults from big game rearing operations! 90,000 birds jeezus that sounds pretty intensive farming to me!



grandad said:


> I know of big game rearing operatons. (90,000 birds +) . We buy our poults form one of them. .


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

JennyClifford said:


> And don't you think the majority of game shooters are just as against intensive reared birds as you?
> There are few shoots in this country that don't worry about the environment, the bird or even those that they employ.
> In general these are the bigger shoots that only worry about numbers shot
> Unfortunately these *FEW* shoots make up a large proportion of the number of birds reared.
> You must understand that the vast majority of shoots in this country are just not like that and that most of the bad publicity is centered on these few bad apples.


thing is Jenny its about where they get their eggs and poults from?.....

half the pheasants reared over here and 90% of the partridges are imported from overseas, of which 70% of the pheasants and 100% of the partridges will have originated from intensive breeding systems. And thats before we even go into the numbers of birds bred in the UK who came from such places...so its going to be a huge percentage of birds coming from battery conditions, and because farms and gamekeepers support this awful practice...then indirectly so are the hunters and everyone else involved.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> thing is Jenny its about where they get their eggs and poults from?.....
> 
> half the pheasants reared over here and 90% of the partridges are imported from overseas, of which 70% of the pheasants and 100% of the partridges will have originated from intensive breeding systems. And thats before we even go into the numbers of birds bred in the UK who came from such places...so its going to be a huge percentage of birds coming from battery conditions, and because farms and gamekeepers support this awful practice...then indirectly so are the hunters and everyone else involved.


Thing is though Noush that alot of people who spout off about this do not apply the same ethics to all areas of their lives. It's a knee jerk reaction to one area of animal cruelty (in their eyes) because that area is an easy target.

Now i have every respect for people who hold "anti" beliefs if they live a life that in no way contributes to any animal cruelty (and there are a few people on here that i know this is the case to the very best of their abilities). BUT you know how hard that is to do in practice Noush so to cherry pick an area and levy hate at those people is hypocritical IMO. Silently participating in something that contributes cruelty to animals (eg cosmetics/cleaning products/clothing etc) because it's "too hard" to work round it yet someone who shoots their own dinner is somehow evil and there is sonething wrong with them is just ****** IMO.

Would an Anti hurl abuse at every person they saw in Tesco buying an unethical product ?? There again an anti shouldn't really be in tesco in the first place should they 

Most people every day will buy into some form of cruelty. I am sure that in my weekly shop, try as hard as i can, there will be some product that has meant a child has suffered/ been exploited. Where does that leave us all then ??? Child haters ?? Child Abusers ??


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> Thing is though Noush that alot of people who spout off about this do not apply the same ethics to all areas of their lives. It's a knee jerk reaction to one area of animal cruelty (in their eyes) because that area is an easy target.
> 
> Now i have every respect for people who hold "anti" beliefs if they live a life that in no way contributes to any animal cruelty (and there are a few people on here that i know this is the case to the very best of their abilities). BUT you know how hard that is to do in practice Noush so to cherry pick an area and levy hate at those people is hypocritical IMO. Silently participating in something that contributes cruelty to animals (eg cosmetics/cleaning products/clothing etc) because it's "too hard" to work round it yet someone who shoots their own dinner is somehow evil and there is sonething wrong with them is just ****** IMO.
> 
> ...


Of course its the hardest thing in the world to be 100% ethical, unless you were an Amazonian Indian maybe...so we're all hypocritical to different extents but that surely doesnt mean we should accept and ignore animal cruelty does it? .... surely people should be fighting for better standards to improve the life of all animals shouldnt they? to me speaking out for the gamebirds is no different from speaking out against any battery farmed animal, i dont agree that any animal should be farmed in intensive conditions, and when there have been threads on battery farming in chickens, or factory farming in pigs ive always said my piece.....but the difference is most people seem to feel the same as i do where those creature are concerned.

infact i have strong views on all animal welfare issues so always join the debate(if i see it)....i dont cherry pick Rainy.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> Thing is though Noush that alot of people who spout off about this do not apply the same ethics to all areas of their lives.


No they don't, but how can the shoot lay claim to the moral high ground if their birds were factory farmed for them to shoot?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elles said:


> No they don't, but how can the shoot lay claim to the moral high ground if their birds were factory farmed for them to shoot?


Depends which shoot you're talking about, as not all buy from abroad, it's mainly the larger commercial shoots, who are driven by making money more than the smaller shoots, where many also try to support British game bird producers, or even produce their own hatchlings to rear. Some shoots don't buy in any birds at all, and yet the criticism seems levelled to all people involved with shooting.

Shooting organisations do push for shoots to buy British, and support good farming methods, but if you've got farms in France without the same welfare standards, and without the same problems with the weather (ground conditions play a large factor in egg production) and who can undercut British producers, maybe the criticism should be levelled at allowing this to happen in the first place?


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> Thing is though Noush that alot of people who spout off about this do not apply the same ethics to all areas of their lives. It's a knee jerk reaction to one area of animal cruelty (in their eyes) because that area is an easy target.
> 
> Now i have every respect for people who hold "anti" beliefs if they live a life that in no way contributes to any animal cruelty (and there are a few people on here that i know this is the case to the very best of their abilities). BUT you know how hard that is to do in practice Noush so to cherry pick an area and levy hate at those people is hypocritical IMO. Silently participating in something that contributes cruelty to animals (eg cosmetics/cleaning products/clothing etc) because it's "too hard" to work round it yet someone who shoots their own dinner is somehow evil and there is sonething wrong with them is just ****** IMO.
> 
> ...


Or wearing a pair of "made in china" leather shoes. Do they really know how the leather was reared and killed? Do they really care? Out of sight, out of mind?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> thing is Jenny its about where they get their eggs and poults from?.....
> 
> half the pheasants reared over here and 90% of the partridges are imported from overseas, of which 70% of the pheasants and 100% of the partridges will have originated from intensive breeding systems. And thats before we even go into the numbers of birds bred in the UK who came from such places...so its going to be a huge percentage of birds coming from battery conditions, and because farms and gamekeepers support this awful practice...then indirectly so are the hunters and everyone else involved.


It's called catching up.
I would dispute your figures as most that I know come from hens caught up and reared in an extensive way in grass pens 
They are called grass reared poults

Do you know, that the majority of birds imported are imported in the egg?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

JennyClifford said:


> It's called catching up.
> I would dispute your figures as most that I know come from hens caught up and reared in an extensive way in grass pens
> They are called grass reared poults


I suspect the figures come from a DEFRA report, and are correct (it's 40% for pheasants, not 50% though), but the report does point towards the majority of those imported birds going towards large commercial shoots.

There are also game farms in the UK that do use raised cages, and there's evidence that as long as it's done right, the birds are healthy and well looked after. I don't like the idea of them, but with game farmers having to compete with prices from France and produce as many eggs/poults as possible, if they are loosing eggs/hatchlings due to ground conditions, who's to blame them for looking at other systems?

As I said in my post earlier this morning, the criticisms should be levelled at allowing eggs/poults to come in from unethically bred sources. Unfortunately, I doubt if there's a way of doing that, although I'm sure if the situation were the other way round, the French would blockade imports and their government would give in after the required amount of bluster and appearing to stand up to them.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> Of course its the hardest thing in the world to be 100% ethical, unless you were an Amazonian Indian maybe...so we're all hypocritical to different extents but that surely doesnt mean we should accept and ignore animal cruelty does it? .... surely people should be fighting for better standards to improve the life of all animals shouldnt they? to me speaking out for the gamebirds is no different from speaking out against any battery farmed animal, i dont agree that any animal should be farmed in intensive conditions, and when there have been threads on battery farming in chickens, or factory farming in pigs ive always said my piece.....but the difference is most people seem to feel the same as i do where those creature are concerned.
> 
> infact i have strong views on all animal welfare issues so always join the debate(if i see it*)....i dont cherry pick Rainy*.


I know you don't lovely xx


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elles said:


> No they don't, but how can the shoot lay claim to the moral high ground if their birds were factory farmed for them to shoot?


Exactly Elles.



Sleeping_Lion said:


> Depends which shoot you're talking about, as not all buy from abroad, it's mainly the larger commercial shoots, who are driven by making money more than the smaller shoots, where many also try to support British game bird producers, or even produce their own hatchlings to rear. Some shoots don't buy in any birds at all, and yet the criticism seems levelled to all people involved with shooting.
> 
> Shooting organisations do push for shoots to buy British, and support good farming methods, but if you've got farms in France without the same welfare standards, and without the same problems with the weather (ground conditions play a large factor in egg production) and who can undercut British producers, maybe the criticism should be levelled at allowing this to happen in the first place?


Infact its only _one_ shooting organisation which has spoken out against the inhumane treatment of these UK birds, and thats BASC (who i take my hat off to!), ....the Countryside Alliance, the Game farmers Association and the other shooting organisations lobbied the Government and got them to withdraw the new code of practice!...scuppering the chances of better welfare for these birds.



grandad said:


> Or wearing a pair of "made in china" leather shoes. Do they really know how the leather was reared and killed? Do they really care? Out of sight, out of mind?


all im saying is this...you seem to oppose supporting battery farmed chickens?, yet you buy your stock from an intensive breeding operation, one who has some *90,000* birds

oh and the only leather products i have are other folks cast off lol



JennyClifford said:


> It's called catching up.
> I would dispute your figures as most that I know come from hens caught up and reared in an extensive way in grass pens
> They are called grass reared poults
> 
> Do you know, that the majority of birds imported are imported in the egg?


the figures as SL has said come from FAWC (farm animal welfare committee) a DEFRA department. Im afraid there are just a few truely wild birds caught up Jenny.

i think i read the majority were hatching eggs and day old chicks but i cant find the info now.



Sleeping_Lion said:


> I suspect the figures come from a DEFRA report, and are correct (it's 40% for pheasants, not 50% though), but the report does point towards the majority of those imported birds going towards large commercial shoots.
> 
> There are also game farms in the UK that do use raised cages, and there's evidence that as long as it's done right, the birds are healthy and well looked after. I don't like the idea of them, but with game farmers having to compete with prices from France and produce as many eggs/poults as possible, if they are loosing eggs/hatchlings due to ground conditions, who's to blame them for looking at other systems?
> 
> As I said in my post earlier this morning, the criticisms should be levelled at allowing eggs/poults to come in from unethically bred sources. Unfortunately, I doubt if there's a way of doing that, although I'm sure if the situation were the other way round, the French would blockade imports and their government would give in after the required amount of bluster and appearing to stand up to them.


I think the pressure has to come from hunters by boycotting shoots who buy from overseas or from intensive farming operations over here, ....and also only being affiliated with BASC who seem genuinly concerned for the birds plight...on to the raised cages, even FAWC were 'particularly concerned about the use of raised cages for breeding pheasants and partridges, thats no way to farm any creature nevermind a semi-wild one.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

Here's a question....if everyone became vegetarian would game birds still be farmed and killed ? .....I believe they would because their value is not as a source of food but as a source of entertainment -the comparison with other animals killed for food is simply erroneous and an attempt to avoid the truth - Game shooting is primarily about the kill - anything else is secondary .... the objective of their miserable lives and deaths is to provide "entertainment in the countryside" ( and don't forget that statement is direct from the BASC themselves )


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> I know you don't lovely xx


aw ty x.. im gobby and opinionated about everything arnt i xxx


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> aw ty x.. im gobby and opinionated about everything arnt i xxx


I personally wouldn't want you any other way, I may not agree with you 100% on all things, but I admire and respect people with your devotion to good causes.

And I agree with you about the issue of game bird rearing, it would be nice to think that we could only use birds that had been raised with good welfare standards. When I said shooting organisaitons, I loosely meant many of the shooting community, and I did know about the BASC but hadn't looked at the stance of others, except the NFG (I think that's one report I've looked at) which has stated their opinion on raised cages, and from what I can make out (reading between the lines) they are pro this simply to allow game bird farmers in this country a chance to compete against the market abroad.

It's worth noting that the welfare of the game birds imported is no lower than for many chickens or other birds raised/transported to be eaten, it's not like they're treated any worse, but it's still not acceptable that such a large percentage has to be sought from abroad.

I'd personally like to see shoots limited to the small shoots, and get rid of the large commercial shoots and particularly shooting towers, which are abhorrent to me and nothing about what a day out shooting is meant to be. That would decrease substantially the amount of birds brought in from overseas. And I can't for the life of me think why we export some and yet are still buying from abroad, but that's open markets for you I'm afraid


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Exactly Elles.
> 
> Infact its only _one_ shooting organisation which has spoken out against the inhumane treatment of these UK birds, and thats BASC (who i take my hat off to!), ....the Countryside Alliance, the Game farmers Association and the other shooting organisations lobbied the Government and got them to withdraw the new code of practice!...scuppering the chances of better welfare for these birds.
> 
> ...


What colour lipstick are you wearing today.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

The 90,000 birds we buy, are form a gamefarm that covers 450 acres. real intensive


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2011)

grandad said:


> What colour lipstick are you wearing today.


nice deep pink for me


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

grandad said:


> What colour lipstick are you wearing today.


I doubt she is tbh, despite not agreeing with Noushka all of the time, I know from chatting to her, she does her utmost to remain as ethical as possible.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

grandad said:


> The 90,000 birds we buy, are form a gamefarm that covers 450 acres. real intensive


But its still an awful lot of birds, must be hard to meet their welfare needs


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I don't wear make-up either, it would just be gilding the lily.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

grandad said:


> What colour lipstick are you wearing today.


You won't win on that point with Noush, she is as genuine as they come in her beliefs and as true to them as its possible to be  

You have to respect that


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> You won't win on that point with Noush, she is as genuine as they come in her beliefs and as true to them as its possible to be
> 
> You have to respect that


I'm so glad to hear it. AND I do respect it.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I personally wouldn't want you any other way, I may not agree with you 100% on all things, but I admire and respect people with your devotion to good causes.
> 
> And I agree with you about the issue of game bird rearing, it would be nice to think that we could only use birds that had been raised with good welfare standards. When I said shooting organisaitons, I loosely meant many of the shooting community, and I did know about the BASC but hadn't looked at the stance of others, except the NFG (I think that's one report I've looked at) which has stated their opinion on raised cages, and from what I can make out (reading between the lines) they are pro this simply to allow game bird farmers in this country a chance to compete against the market abroad.
> 
> ...





RAINYBOW said:


> You won't win on that point with Noush, she is as genuine as they come in her beliefs and as true to them as its possible to be
> 
> You have to respect that


aw gosh thank you.....we dont always see eye to eye, especially me and SL... we've had some really heated debates both here and on the other forum, havent we LOL, but you are two of my favourites and my friends



grandad said:


> I'm so glad to hear it. AND I do respect it.


& thank you Grandad....oh and im not really a lipstick kinda girl tbh, but heres where i usually get my cosmetics from Beauty Without Cruelty UK | Free Delivery


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2011)

im sure one thing we can all agree with is why dont they use peados and rapists instead of animals for testing!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

albert 1970 said:


> im sure one thing we can all agree with is why dont they use peados and rapists instead of animals for testing!


ive always thought this was an excellent idea Albert:thumbsup:


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> im sure one thing we can all agree with is why dont they use peados and rapists instead of animals for testing!


Been saying this for years, it was going to be in my mainfesto for if I went into politics


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> Been saying this for years, it was going to be in my mainfesto for if I went into politics


youve got my vote!:thumbup:


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> aw gosh thank you.....we dont always see eye to eye, especially me and SL... we've had some really heated debates both here and on the other forum, havent we LOL, but you are two of my favourites and my friends
> 
> & thank you Grandad....oh and im not really a lipstick kinda girl tbh, but heres where i usually get my cosmetics from Beauty Without Cruelty UK | Free Delivery


Love you chick xx


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> Love you chick xx


 aw ty Rainy xxxxx


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

Hells bells, this one's running on a bit, it was only a little anecdote about a daft bugger trying to wind me up....


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

springerpete said:


> Hells bells, this one's running on a bit, it was only a little anecdote about a daft bugger trying to wind me up....


I am not without my suspicions that you were sponsoring a certain remedial individual to keep it alive?


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

No idea what's been going on here but I am closing this thread and moving it to sort out.
Now reopened. The subject of this thread is a very emotive topic but I don't want to see any more snide comments.


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