# No, it’s not all in how you raise them



## Guest (Aug 25, 2015)

Another great write-up on the nature nurture thing.

I love how she addresses the unfair light this paints rescue dogs in as well.
Plenty of rescue dogs were raised in less than ideal circumstances and still end up fantastic, stable, great pets.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/trish-mcmillan-loehr/how-theyre-raised-pit-bulls_b_8029078.html


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

I find this an interesting subject. when I got JJ I really thought that as I was getting him so young and he'd have no contact with sheep and would be doing a totally different job. He wouldn't develop any or as many of the typical collie traits. But they started coming in at around 4 months old when he started to do the 'collie crouch' that sheepdogs do as they're approaching sheep. I'd never taught him this, Inca never did it so he hadn't learnt it from her and at that time we'd never met or played with another collie that did that...so where did he learn it from? 

Despite extensive daily work walking in traffic and correcting he still does the stalking cars thing more often when we're on a quiet country lane with bends and they come flying round in the opposite direction or flying up from behind and of course he loves to round things up given chance. 

My point is if he's somehow learnt all these things despite having no contact with the environment where he'd use those skills, how can you be 100% sure dogs that were traditionally bred to fight with and kill other dogs don't still have those instincts, that could still potentially be triggered at some point, even if the dog seems very docile and friendly?


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

IncaThePup said:


> I find this an interesting subject. when I got JJ I really thought that as I was getting him so young and he'd have no contact with sheep and would be doing a totally different job. He wouldn't develop any or as many of the typical collie traits. But they started coming in at around 4 months old when he started to do the 'collie crouch' that sheepdogs do as they're approaching sheep. I'd never taught him this, Inca never did it so he hadn't learnt it from her and at that time we'd never met or played with another collie that did that...so where did he learn it from?
> 
> Despite extensive daily work walking in traffic and correcting he still does the stalking cars thing more often when we're on a quiet country lane with bends and they come flying round in the opposite direction or flying up from behind and of course he loves to round things up given chance.
> 
> My point is if he's somehow learnt all these things despite having no contact with the environment where he'd use those skills, how can you be 100% sure dogs that were traditionally bred to fight with and kill other dogs don't still have those instincts, that could still potentially be triggered at some point, even if the dog seems very docile and friendly?


He didn't LEARN the collie traits at all. They're hard wired into the brain. That's what makes a breed - any breed - what it is. I can't believe you got a collie (or any breed) without understanding that.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Exactly, you get a well-bred dog you have to expect it to behave how the standard says it should. You have to expect a collie to herd or a terrier to be prey driven. The people that insist it's all in how you raise them or that the only breed traits that are passed down are the positive ones are the people who put dogs in shelters. There are too many horror stories of people adopting completely unsuitable dogs because a rescue basically told them all dogs are blank slates.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Got the popcorn ready for the comment about docile dogs originally bred to fight who are just going to turn....


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I wish more people could understand this.


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

well we were brought up to believe that its how you train them and that sheep dogs were trained to do that specific job they didn't just automatically know how to do it, it depends on the handler too (Flockstars have proved this point with some of the hopeless celebrities trying to work professional sheepdogs!). 

It's not like I got him from a rescue and he had been a proper sheep dog previously or not taught or trained in any way. I've had him from 8 weeks and he's been trained daily for a very specific job since that age. 

My point is exactly that if its hard wired into them then how can people be 100% sure dogs bred to fight won't suddenly attack if some unknown trigger happens one day?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Well it was a toss up between that and OMG how dare you suggest that any breed traits other than those the term sunshine and rainbows could be applied to are passed down, you bsl supporting monster.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

*deep breaths*


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

lullabydream said:


> Got the popcorn ready for the comment about docile dogs originally bred to fight who are just going to turn....


You didn't have to wait long!!!!!


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2015)

IncaThePup said:


> My point is exactly that if its hard wired into them then how can people be 100% sure dogs bred to fight won't suddenly attack if some unknown trigger happens one day?


In the same way a good breeder can look at a litter of sheepdogs and tell which ones are going to make good workers and which ones aren't.

FWIW, fighting is not what is hard wired in to breeds like game bred APBT. What is hard wired in to them is a lot of prey drive, a tendency towards dog intolerance, determination, agility, strength, obliviousness to pain, a huge desire to please their humans, and what I call being an "adrenaline junkie". An adrenaline junkie dog who gets a rush out of fighting is going to be hard to break of that, however that same adrenaline junkie dog can make an amazing sport dog and if never allowed to fight, won't connect fighting with the adrenaline rush, but will connect say, agility with it. 
The other traits, as you can see, some make for a really super dog. The APBT who isn't interested in fighting, is low on the dog intolerance scale, high on determination and desire to please, is going to make an amazing dog. As shown by the game bred dog used as the example for the article.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

That is like saying how can you be sure all collies won't turn into obsessive, control freaks who chase bikes and nip children suddenly


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

IncaThePup said:


> well we were brought up to believe that its how you train them and that sheep dogs were trained to do that specific job they didn't just automatically know how to do it, it depends on the handler too (Flockstars have proved this point with some of the hopeless celebrities trying to work professional sheepdogs!).
> 
> It's not like I got him from a rescue and he had been a proper sheep dog previously or not taught or trained in any way. I've had him from 8 weeks and he's been trained daily for a very specific job since that age.
> 
> My point is exactly that if its hard wired into them then how can people be 100% sure dogs bred to fight won't suddenly attack if some unknown trigger happens one day?


no sheepdogs do not automatically know what a shepherd wants them to do, but they DO have a natural instinct which cannot be TRAINED IN.

You can manage it, change the target or utilise it.

For example you cannot TRAIN a gundog to work sheep like a collie (for trials purposes) as they do not do the banana outrun nor do they have a hard eye.

Dogs that are bred specifically for the sports of Mondioring, French Ring, Belgian Ring, IPO are bred to for their genetic full, calm, grips, it does not mean they will if placed in homes where that talent is not required, that they will suddenly bite people for no apparent reason. Nor does it mean that once trained they will bite anybody without the specific command.


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

There is a scale, surely, in terms of behaviour traits in various breeds? (Rather in the same way that research has shown that people are somewhere on the scale between hetero- and ****- sexuality - very few people are 100% anything.)

My first dog was a rescue border collie; he was 10 months old when we got him. He didn't do the 'collie crawl', nor was he a 'wheelie' but, if the three members of the family went off in different directions he would do his absolute best to herd us all back up together!


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

IncaThePup said:


> *well we were brought up to believe that its how you train them and that sheep dogs were trained to do that specific job they didn't just automatically know how to do it,* it depends on the handler too (Flockstars have proved this point with some of the hopeless celebrities trying to work professional sheepdogs!).
> 
> It's not like I got him from a rescue and he had been a proper sheep dog previously or not taught or trained in any way. I've had him from 8 weeks and he's been trained daily for a very specific job since that age.
> 
> My point is exactly that if its hard wired into them then how can people be 100% sure dogs bred to fight won't suddenly attack if some unknown trigger happens one day?


I grew up with working BCs, the breed is hard wired through selection over the years to have some parts of the hunting behaviour sequence (notably orient, eye-stalk, chase) more developed (IIRC Coppinger used the word 'hypertrophied'), in order to make a good herding dog.

The traits are there but the dogs still need training to perfect those traits & to follow commands, they aren't psychic, they don't know where we want the sheep to go.

I'm refraining from comment on the fighting thing, because apparently everyone's an expert when it comes to the whys & wherefores on that particular subject, although I'm still waiting for my now 7 year old Rottie mix to 'turn' into whatever people think he's going to 'turn' into. I'm hoping a unicorn, because I've always wanted one of those


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

smokeybear said:


> For example you cannot TRAIN a gundog to work sheep like a collie (for trials purposes) as they do not do the banana outrun nor do they have a hard eye


I'll testify to that, I once got so fed op of trying to catch sheep with husband "helping" that Ifetched my cocker spaniel into the field - who promptly ran into the hurdles, sat down and barked, thus ensuring the sheep went anywhere _except _the hurdles.

Also put my GSD in a down stay to block off an escape exit for some ducks - they simply ran over his tail, and he didn't move because he knew he wasn't allowed to touch livestock - I thought him just "being a dog" would deter the ducks, but because he wasn't eyeballing them they just ran him over.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Catharinem said:


> I'll testify to that, I once got so fed op of trying to catch sheep with husband "helping" that Ifetched my cocker spaniel into the field - who promptly ran into the hurdles, sat down and barked, thus ensuring the sheep went anywhere _except _the hurdles.
> 
> Also put my GSD in a down stay to block off an escape exit for some ducks - they simply ran over his tail, and he didn't move because he knew he wasn't allowed to touch livestock - I thought him just "being a dog" would deter the ducks, but because he wasn't eyeballing them they just ran him over.


That paints a very funny image in my head. :Hilarious


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Muttly said:


> That paints a very funny image in my head. :Hilarious


 Yes, he was my Special boy. I know you shouldn't have favourites, but he was my first dog, and also a rescue with nervous aggression when I had him ( was going to be pts as unable to be rehomed to "the public"). I lost him aged 7 to degenerative disease, but we had 6 fantastic years together.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

That brought tears to my eyes. Theodore sounds very very special. A friend of mine rescued a staffie from a yard, it had been chained up or kept in the shed and kicked/beaten. Her OH was delivering to the yard and saw the owner hitting the dog and yelled at her - she said take it then if you don't like the way I treat it so he did. Its lived as part of her family with children and other dogs/animals for a few years now with no problems at all.


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## kare (Sep 8, 2014)

simplysardonic said:


> I'm still waiting for my now 7 year old Rottie mix to 'turn' into whatever people think heng to 'turn' into. I'm hoping a unicorn, because I've always wanted one of those


Unicorn would be epic!
I once heard someone reply to a "turning" comment with "All my GSDs ever turned into was bigger GSDs"
I rescued though, so could not use the comment as my own, I never had a GSD young enough to get any bigger after I got them!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I had a collie cross with no sheep instincts whatsoever. When I lost my working collie I decided Meg could try and earn her keep. Obviously she never learnt to do an outrun but that was not a huge problem as we have small fields and anyway my working collie was hopeless at doing an outrun even though she had the instinct to go out, she always went in a straight line. Anyway Meg learnt eventually to drive and pen sheep very efficiently, purely on commands and with no instinct. My other collies just had to have their instincts harnessed so they did what I wanted them to do which was a lot quicker!

There was a lot of standard poodles rescued from a breeder some years ago. Most of them were in a bad state with ear and eye infections, with some of thtem needing surgery. They had not had much attention and had been fed sporadically. The rescue that had them said every one of them had wonderful temperaments.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

IncaThePup said:


> I find this an interesting subject. when I got JJ I really thought that as I was getting him so young and he'd have no contact with sheep and would be doing a totally different job. He wouldn't develop any or as many of the typical collie traits. But they started coming in at around 4 months old when he started to do the 'collie crouch' that sheepdogs do as they're approaching sheep. I'd never taught him this, Inca never did it so he hadn't learnt it from her and at that time we'd never met or played with another collie that did that...so where did he learn it from?
> 
> Despite extensive daily work walking in traffic and correcting he still does the stalking cars thing more often when we're on a quiet country lane with bends and they come flying round in the opposite direction or flying up from behind and of course he loves to round things up given chance.
> 
> M*y point is if he's somehow learnt all these things despite having no contact with the environment where he'd use those skills, how can you be 100% sure dogs that were traditionally bred to fight with and kill other dogs don't still have those instincts, that could still potentially be triggered at some point, even if the dog seems very docile and friendly?*


I see what you're saying... I've said it before and got lynched...

ETA: I am not saying certain breeds are 'aggressive' etc, but surely some breeds are more likely to resort of this type of behaviour due to their breed. e.g. Terriers for example can be quick to react as they'd need to be if hunting etc. 
All IncaThePup is saying that JJ demonstrates breed typical behaviours that he hasn't learnt from anywhere. Similar to my Lab retrieving and my terrier killing rats... it's natural. I don't think ITP has said anything negative...


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

IncaThePup said:


> I find this an interesting subject. when I got JJ I really thought that as I was getting him so young and he'd have no contact with sheep and would be doing a totally different job. He wouldn't develop any or as many of the typical collie traits. But they started coming in at around 4 months old when he started to do the 'collie crouch' that sheepdogs do as they're approaching sheep. I'd never taught him this, Inca never did it so he hadn't learnt it from her and at that time we'd never met or played with another collie that did that...so where did he learn it from?
> 
> Despite extensive daily work walking in traffic and correcting he still does the stalking cars thing more often when we're on a quiet country lane with bends and they come flying round in the opposite direction or flying up from behind and of course he loves to round things up given chance.
> 
> My point is if he's somehow learnt all these things despite having no contact with the environment where he'd use those skills, how can you be 100% sure dogs that were traditionally bred to fight with and kill other dogs don't still have those instincts, that could still potentially be triggered at some point, even if the dog seems very docile and friendly?


Goodness me, knowing the breeder you got JJ from, I am very surprised they let you have one of their puppies when you clearly have no actual knowledge of the breed whatsoever. Makes me want to reconsider my opinion of said breeder.

Time and time again your posts seem to show complete and utter ignorance towards various breeds, including your own.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

some dogs and some situations are and can have bad effects or very good.It all depends.Where i live i would never buy a pit bull.They are crossbred and inbred and fight dogs and this and that and everything that no one knows about.

Around my area buying a pitt is like buying a hand grenade.You are just a pin pull away from a big disaster.I am not claiming they are all like that or that they will all turn out like that but i have seen it happen.It is really sad too since i like pitts.


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

Catharinem said:


> I'll testify to that, I once got so fed op of trying to catch sheep with husband "helping" that Ifetched my cocker spaniel into the field - who promptly ran into the hurdles, sat down and barked, thus ensuring the sheep went anywhere _except _the hurdles.
> *
> Also put my GSD in a down stay to block off an escape exit for some ducks - they simply ran over his tail, and he didn't move because he knew he wasn't allowed to touch livestock - I thought him just "being a dog" would deter the ducks, but because he wasn't eyeballing them they just ran him over*.


lol! That's interesting I never thought of it that way. We visit a local lake with loads of ducks.. Inca used to love it cos the ducks came right up (they were used to being fed) and seemed not scared of most dogs. I never really thought about it but with JJ they all literally run off the path back into the lake when he's looking at them! Never thought of the ducks being able to see the difference in the dogs eyes such as Inca's softer eyes as she ambled clumsily towards them and JJ's more intense stare as he's starting to lower his hips into a crouch. He can control it when he wants to though as I've had him laid down next to scooter not moving while I get a photo of the birds on the lake. He is getting better at exercising self control overall with regard to his herding behaviours as he's getting older.

we know another collie in the next village...She walks off-lead around the pavements and has never shown any interest in chasing cars and totally submissive to every dog she sees coming the other way. runs up to them lies on floor in front of them then keeps trying to kiss them! I asked how she got her to not eye up cars all the time and woman said she had just never been interested and didn't really have an herding behaviours. She said she had got her from a show breeder though and asked me if JJ was from working stock. We often meet up for the dogs to play and the woman is always impressed with how much stuff JJ can do and says her dog is a 'a bit on the slow side but at least she's not driving them mad chasing stuff all the time'! The woman said the breeder had told them she would be the easiest of the litter as she didn't seem as 'driven', but joked they didn't relaise what she actually meant was she wasn't as bright as the other pups! (poor dog!).

Tbh I never really considered that a collie might not have any herding behaviours at all! I chose him for his potential intelligence and ability to use his initiative in a working situation (ie getting help for me) and in that respect he's perfect, can learn any job I teach him after showing him once and use his initiative to solve puzzles. (i frequently do 'mock emergencies' for him to have chance to figure out what to do in certain situations) I just hadn't accounted for it taking most of his first 3 years for him to learn self control over what I considered the simpler things, such as not stalking cars after I'd corrected him many times on EVERY walk! I couldn't understand why he couldn't 'get' something so simple, considering the complexity of some of the other stuff he's learned! I've come to view the car issue as more of a 'compulsion' he's battling to control (maybe due to his young age still) than a reflection of his ability to learn in general and I'm doing more reading up on how to help him with that particular issue.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

IncaThePup said:


> Tbh I never really considered that a collie might not have any herding behaviours at all! I chose him for his potential intelligence and ability to use his initiative in a working situation (ie getting help for me) and in that respect he's perfect, can learn any job I teach him after showing him once and use his initiative to solve puzzles. (i frequently do 'mock emergencies' for him to have chance to figure out what to do in certain situations) I just hadn't accounted for it taking most of his first 3 years for him to learn self control over what I considered the simpler things, such as not stalking cars after I'd corrected him many times on EVERY walk! I couldn't understand why he couldn't 'get' something so simple, considering the complexity of some of the other stuff he's learned! I've come to view the car issue as more of a 'compulsion' he's battling to control (maybe due to his young age still) than a reflection of his ability to learn in general and I'm doing more reading up on how to help him with that particular issue.


He has a lack of impulse control, whilst aging will help to a degree it is much better to help teach him how to control that impulse rather than correcting when he fails IMO.

Thai is from working lines (I know he is only half collie but he is a collie in an ambulls body lol) and has/had terrible impulse control around fast moving objects. He had no self preservation when chasing a ball because the chase was far more important to him, and if a small furry rushed out in front of him then he was gone before you could work out what had happened.

Now I know this isn't examples of stalking cars, it is still all linked to the herding behaviour.

I can now call him off a chase (so long as i get there at the right time, it is still a work in progress) from rabbits, squirrels and deer. I can stop the chase before it starts when it comes to cats. And finally (the hardest to achieve so far due to his ball obsession) I can now leave him in a down stay whilst I walk off with the ball throwing it into the distance (whilst he is still in the down stay) and then recall and do a few commands before being released to find the ball.

That was all achieved by using many, many, many hours doing impulse control exercises at home and then proofing them whilst out and about.
Maybe it is time you taught JJ how you want him to behave rather than just correcting the bad behaviour


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

IncaThePup said:


> well we were brought up to believe that its how you train them and that sheep dogs were trained to do that specific job they didn't just automatically know how to do it, it depends on the handler too (Flockstars have proved this point with some of the hopeless celebrities trying to work professional sheepdogs!).
> 
> It's not like I got him from a rescue and he had been a proper sheep dog previously or not taught or trained in any way. I've had him from 8 weeks and he's been trained daily for a very specific job since that age.
> 
> My point is exactly that if its hard wired into them then how can people be 100% sure dogs bred to fight won't suddenly attack if some unknown trigger happens one day?


Which dogs are bred to fight? Are you talking about Pitbulls?


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

Jazmine said:


> Goodness me, knowing the breeder you got JJ from, I am very surprised they let you have one of their puppies when you clearly have no actual knowledge of the breed whatsoever. Makes me want to reconsider my opinion of said breeder.
> 
> Time and time again your posts seem to show complete and utter ignorance towards various breeds, including your own.


What breeder wouldn't be proud of one of their dogs being someone's assistant and making a real difference to someone's life?

JJ alerts me to minicom ringing, doorbell, fire alarm. He then started alerting me cars behind us on the farm track which I hadn't originally taught him I was only intending for him to do the 3 main sounds I needed same as Inca had. He alerted me to a neighbour shouting my name ..another thing I hadn't specifically taught.

physical tasks: helps with dressing and undressing everyday, lies and waits with towel (in bedroom) until I've finished in shower then brings it into wet room for me, picks up items dropped, tidies up his toys, can find my phone and activate an emergency call button, open and close doors, he acts as guide for my older dog when she's trotting about in her cart. fetches the post, helps with recycling and putting the shopping away. I taught him to do all these things he wasn't trained by a charity.

Border Collies are often listed as the most intelligent breed and that's what I needed a dog that could learn fast and would enjoy having a job to do for life. He's bilingual and knows quite a large vocab in both BSL (I mean British Sign Language) and spoken language. He's a happy dog who has everything he needs and more. I can't see why the breeder wouldn't be proud of what he's achieved? most of the puppies go to regular pet homes and smaller percentage to actual working farms to be working sheepdogs and have a job.

I've admitted I hadn't fully realised that these drives would still be present 3 yrs later even though he had no access to a farm and sheep and had been doing a completely different job and different lifestyle. I was told I'd be best with a puppy cos they're like a blank slate and can start from scratch (by a staff member at dogs Trust!) when I was originally looking for a rescue, They said they didn't think they had any capable of learning what I needed a dog to do for me to live independently as many of their dogs had issues and some had to be only dogs which ruled them out (cos of me already having Inca). So I got a puppy so it would grow up with the situation being around wheelchairs moving around him, learning sign language as 'normal' for him.

Even if he never gets complete control of his car stalking (so can't pass the public training exam) he's still enabling me to be independent in my own home and doing a job and still has had a lot of skills and time invested in him that most of the other puppies won't get. I can't see how that makes me such a bad owner compared with the daily complaints on here about other dog walkers or behavioural issues some people on here are having with their own dogs!


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Another great write-up on the nature nurture thing.
> 
> I love how she addresses the unfair light this paints rescue dogs in as well.
> Plenty of rescue dogs were raised in less than ideal circumstances and still end up fantastic, stable, great pets.
> ...


Great post ... and I think I'm a little bit in love with Theordore. 



IncaThePup said:


> I find this an interesting subject. when I got JJ I really thought that as I was getting him so young and he'd have no contact with sheep and would be doing a totally different job. He wouldn't develop any or as many of the typical collie traits. But they started coming in at around 4 months old when he started to do the 'collie crouch' that sheepdogs do as they're approaching sheep. I'd never taught him this, Inca never did it so he hadn't learnt it from her and at that time we'd never met or played with another collie that did that...so where did he learn it from?
> 
> Despite extensive daily work walking in traffic and correcting he still does the stalking cars thing more often when we're on a quiet country lane with bends and they come flying round in the opposite direction or flying up from behind and of course he loves to round things up given chance.
> 
> My point is if he's somehow learnt all these things despite having no contact with the environment where he'd use those skills, how can you be 100% sure dogs that were traditionally bred to fight with and kill other dogs don't still have those instincts, that could still potentially be triggered at some point, even if the dog seems very docile and friendly?


Just caught up with this thread as it's been a hectic day, but if you're still fascinated about nature versus nurture, think of it in another, easier to understand scenario:

Nature: 
Instinct: Communication. We're all born with the ability to communicate our needs. Babies cry, children and adults talk.

Nuture:
Learned behaviour: Language - French, English, German, sign language, body language, etc. We might be born with the instinct to communicate "hard wired" into us, but our "Mother Tongue", or first language, isn't.


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> He has a lack of impulse control, whilst aging will help to a degree it is much better to help teach him how to control that impulse rather than correcting when he fails IMO.
> 
> *That was all achieved by using many, many, many hours doing impulse control exercises at home* and then proofing them whilst out and about.


Where do I find these 'impulse control exercises'? Can you give me an example that would be particuarly useful for us with the car issue?

I've actually found when he's in a steady stream of traffic he's ok and he's walked fine along a grass verge sniffing things out when we were alongside a busier road but which had a steady stream of traffic. When we're on a quieter lane and a car comes flying out of nowhere particuarly those that are loud or like motorbikes it tends to trigger a reaction. I say ah and make him stand still or sit until its passed, tell him he's good then we go on. I wondered if it was cos I was moving faster too sometimes if roads are really quiet he enjoys a good run alongside so I'm going full speed on scooter...so probably more comparable to like cani cross running/jogging with a dog in terms of speed than a 'walk'.

When I am going slower on the wider pavements so he can be on the grass areas for a sniffabout/wee he's fine too. Only time he's very 'stalky' when I'm moving slower is when we're coming down this hill that has a dip at the bottom and hill opposite so cars appear out of nowhere (at top of other hill) and tend to fly down it towards us. Oddly he's better when I'm on the road moving with the traffic and he's on the grass verge than when I'm going down the pavement (thats on the right) very slowly and the cars are flying up the hill on his side. (he's on my left as drive scooter/chair with right hand). I have to come down this road as it leads to estate entrance and only fully accessible way for me to get on and off it to our house.


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## LouLatch (Jul 2, 2012)

IncaThePup said:


> well we were brought up to believe that its how you train them and that sheep dogs were trained to do that specific job they didn't just automatically know how to do it, it depends on the handler too (Flockstars have proved this point with some of the hopeless celebrities trying to work professional sheepdogs!).
> 
> It's not like I got him from a rescue and he had been a proper sheep dog previously or not taught or trained in any way. I've had him from 8 weeks and he's been trained daily for a very specific job since that age.
> 
> My point is exactly that if its hard wired into them then how can people be 100% sure dogs bred to fight won't suddenly attack if some unknown trigger happens one day?


dogs bred to fight!!!!!! Really!!?? It amazes me people still think this way. They are not bred to fight people simply take advantage of other traits the breed has. As ouesi has already said. Just as collies traits are exploited to herd sheep! If a dog is not taught to fight it won't just decide to attack. Just as an untrained collie wouldn't herd sheep but chase them around having a ball.

Oh my god!!!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

dandogman said:


> I see what you're saying... I've said it before and got lynched...
> 
> ETA: I am not saying certain breeds are 'aggressive' etc, but surely some breeds are more likely to resort of this type of behaviour due to their breed. e.g. Terriers for example can be quick to react as they'd need to be if hunting etc.
> All IncaThePup is saying that JJ demonstrates breed typical behaviours that he hasn't learnt from anywhere. Similar to my Lab retrieving and my terrier killing rats... it's natural. I don't think ITP has said anything negative...


What breeds are bred to fight?


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Meezey said:


> What breeds are bred to fight?


According to wiki, these
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dog_fighting_breeds


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

maybe I'm being blind, but where are wikis (the totally reliable website - not now, not ever) sources for this? As far as I can see all this list shows is somewhere in their write up on the breed the word fighting was used.........kinda needs to be in context


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

LouLatch said:


> dogs bred to fight!!!!!! Really!!?? It amazes me people still think this way. They are not bred to fight people simply take advantage of other traits the breed has. As ouesi has already said. Just as collies traits are exploited to herd sheep! If a dog is not taught to fight it won't just decide to attack. Just as an untrained collie wouldn't herd sheep but chase them around having a ball.
> 
> Oh my god!!!


Did you read the article?

QUOTE:

_"Most of us know that pit bulls, *especially fighting-bred ones*, are still some of the most abused dogs on this planet. But Theodore and I know that they can also be some of the most forgiving. I am so glad that at least some *victims of dogfighting* are given a chance at life as a pet dog now" UNQUOTE_


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

dandogman said:


> According to wiki, these
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dog_fighting_breeds


Oh, Wiki. Oh well, that explains it all.

That's a reliable source for sure. :Bored


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

IncaThePup said:


> Did you read the article?
> 
> QUOTE:
> 
> _"Most of us know that pit bulls, *especially fighting-bred ones*, are still some of the most abused dogs on this planet. But Theodore and I know that they can also be some of the most forgiving. I am so glad that at least some *victims of dogfighting* are given a chance at life as a pet dog now" UNQUOTE_


Your posts are a big insight into how BSL got a foothold in this Country.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

how many pit service/ helper/ pat dogs are there in the usa?


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

IncaThePup said:


> What breeder wouldn't be proud of one of their dogs being someone's assistant and making a real difference to someone's life?
> 
> JJ alerts me to minicom ringing, doorbell, fire alarm. He then started alerting me cars behind us on the farm track which I hadn't originally taught him I was only intending for him to do the 3 main sounds I needed same as Inca had. He alerted me to a neighbour shouting my name ..another thing I hadn't specifically taught.
> 
> ...


I'd be proud of teaching him all that. Whilst my GSD's have been intelligent and eager to learn, to be honest the cockers are just a bit loopy! On the other hand, they're bred to run in front and zig zag to flush game birds, so can't really blame them for running off and zig zagging.


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

Sweety said:


> Your posts are a big insight into how BSL got a foothold in this Country.


This is from Uk papers. Dogs being bred to fight exists... someone in this article admits to breeding a mastiff crossed with 2 other breeds specifically to kill. The boys being interviewed were in London.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...-the-brutal-world-of-dogfighting-8947853.html


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## LouLatch (Jul 2, 2012)

IncaThePup said:


> Did you read the article?
> 
> QUOTE:
> 
> _"Most of us know that pit bulls, *especially fighting-bred ones*, are still some of the most abused dogs on this planet. But Theodore and I know that they can also be some of the most forgiving. I am so glad that at least some *victims of dogfighting* are given a chance at life as a pet dog now" UNQUOTE_


Nope but I don't see how that quote changes what I said.

I think your miss understanding fighting bred. The owners breed with the intention of training them to fight.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

dandogman said:


> According to wiki, these
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dog_fighting_breeds


Wiki ? Hold on I'm going to submit my Wiki about the Leprechaun that lives under ASDA.


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

LouLatch said:


> Nope but I don't see how that quote changes what I said.
> 
> I think your miss understanding fighting bred. *The owners breed with the intention of training them to fight*.


yep check this one out

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...-the-brutal-world-of-dogfighting-8947853.html


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

head/desk.......no one I saying idiots do not breed dogs to fight.
Do ya know what? I just cant.....


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

IncaThePup said:


> This is from Uk papers. Dogs being bred to fight exists... someone in this article admits to breeding a mastiff crossed with 2 other breeds specifically to kill. The boys being interviewed were in London.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...-the-brutal-world-of-dogfighting-8947853.html


Bred so people can use them in fighting... Inca do you ever listen to anything people explain to you on here?


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

We had fighting dogs in the centre, cruelty cases. One in particular springs to mind, fairly small, but build like Mr Universe, he could climb an 8 ft fence and drop down into another dog's enclosure. You'd better believe dogs are used for fighting here in the UK. Their owners will try to track them down too, even though dogs are moved to different areas of the country. One morning they had started to cut through the wire surrounding the highest security block, I dread to think what they'd have done if they'd stood their ground instead of running off, most of the kennel staff were young girls straight out of college.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Catharinem said:


> We had fighting dogs in the centre, cruelty cases. One in particular springs to mind, fairly small, but build like Mr Universe, he could climb an 8 ft fence and drop down into another dog's enclosure. You'd better believe dogs are used for fighting here in the UK. Their owners will try to track them down too, even though dogs are moved to different areas of the country. One morning they had started to cut through the wire surrounding the highest security block, I dread to think what they'd have done if they'd stood their ground instead of running off, most of the kennel staff were young girls straight out of college.


You are missing the point........


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

LouLatch said:


> *dogs bred to fight!!!!!! Really!!?? It amazes me people still think this way. They are not bred to fight people simply take advantage of other traits the breed has*. As ouesi has already said. Just as collies traits are exploited to herd sheep! If a dog is not taught to fight it won't just decide to attack. Just as an untrained collie wouldn't herd sheep but chase them around having a ball.
> 
> Oh my god!!!


My link above was in response to this comment that the person thought dogs were *not* bred to fight. As in that link they were talking about* breeds that were being crossed and specifically bred to fight*. to show that it does go on..some people are breeding dogs specifically just to fight.

If the boys who were breeding these dogs got busted..where would the dogs end up? in rescue? ..and the mastiff cross he was wanting to breed to kill??? Could it be completely rehabilitated?


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## LouLatch (Jul 2, 2012)

IncaThePup said:


> yep check this one out
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...-the-brutal-world-of-dogfighting-8947853.html


?? 
What's that got do with the price of cheese?

Did u not understand what I said or are you choosing to ignore it?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

IncaThePup said:


> Where do I find these 'impulse control exercises'? Can you give me an example that would be particuarly useful for us with the car issue?
> 
> I've actually found when he's in a steady stream of traffic he's ok and he's walked fine along a grass verge sniffing things out when we were alongside a busier road but which had a steady stream of traffic. When we're on a quieter lane and a car comes flying out of nowhere particuarly those that are loud or like motorbikes it tends to trigger a reaction. I say ah and make him stand still or sit until its passed, tell him he's good then we go on. I wondered if it was cos I was moving faster too sometimes if roads are really quiet he enjoys a good run alongside so I'm going full speed on scooter...so probably more comparable to like cani cross running/jogging with a dog in terms of speed than a 'walk'.
> 
> When I am going slower on the wider pavements so he can be on the grass areas for a sniffabout/wee he's fine too. Only time he's very 'stalky' when I'm moving slower is when we're coming down this hill that has a dip at the bottom and hill opposite so cars appear out of nowhere (at top of other hill) and tend to fly down it towards us. Oddly he's better when I'm on the road moving with the traffic and he's on the grass verge than when I'm going down the pavement (thats on the right) very slowly and the cars are flying up the hill on his side. (he's on my left as drive scooter/chair with right hand). I have to come down this road as it leads to estate entrance and only fully accessible way for me to get on and off it to our house.


Here are a few articles you might find of interest:
http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/impulse-control-everyone
http://denisefenzi.com/2012/07/10/high-drive-and-impulse-control/
http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/LoweringArousal.pdf
http://suzanneclothier.com/the-articles/guidelines-teaching-self-control

If you google impulse control games then plenty comes up.


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## LouLatch (Jul 2, 2012)

IncaThePup said:


> My link above was in response to this comment that the person thought dogs were *not* bred to fight. As in that link they were talking about* breeds that were being crossed and specifically bred to fight*. to show that it does go on..some people are breeding dogs specifically just to fight.
> 
> If the boys who were breeding these dogs got busted..where would the dogs end up? in rescue? ..and the mastiff cross he was wanting to breed to kill??? Could it be completely rehabilitated?


Yes breeding dogs with certain traits that can be exploited!

As are dogs bred for agility, but doing agility is not wired into the dogs it's their traits that are used to get them to do desired things. Fighting is not wired into the dogs bred for fighting. I don't think you understand.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

IncaThePup said:


> yep check this one out
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/a-terrifying-encounter-with-the-brutal-world-of-dogfighting-8947853.html


Of course there are those mouthbreathing morons who breed dogs to fight. They breed powerful dogs -- wouldn't be much use chucking a whippet in to fight, would it now?

It doesn't mean that the Bull Breeds want to fight.

If I were to put my Jack Russell in an enclosed space with a dog that attacked her, I'll guarantee you she would fight. It doesn't mean she was bred to fight.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

You guys have the patience of saints!


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)




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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

IncaThePup said:


> Did you read the article?
> 
> QUOTE:
> 
> _"Most of us know that pit bulls, *especially fighting-bred ones*, are still some of the most abused dogs on this planet. But Theodore and I know that they can also be some of the most forgiving. I am so glad that at least some *victims of dogfighting* are given a chance at life as a pet dog now" UNQUOTE_


Contextual issue, perhaps? Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be reading the 1st bit in bold as to mean that they were bred from stock who had some sort of fighting gene, or instinct, whereas I'm reading it as dogs bred from proven fighting stock - ie, parents that have proven themselves in the ring. Not the same thing at all, for reasons that Ouesi has already pointed out.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Blitz said:


> I had a collie cross with no sheep instincts whatsoever. When I lost my working collie I decided Meg could try and earn her keep. Obviously she never learnt to do an outrun but that was not a huge problem as we have small fields and anyway my working collie was hopeless at doing an outrun even though she had the instinct to go out, she always went in a straight line. Anyway Meg learnt eventually to drive and pen sheep very efficiently, purely on commands and with no instinct. My other collies just had to have their instincts harnessed so they did what I wanted them to do which was a lot quicker!
> 
> There was a lot of standard poodles rescued from a breeder some years ago. Most of them were in a bad state with ear and eye infections, with some of thtem needing surgery. They had not had much attention and had been fed sporadically. The rescue that had them said every one of them had wonderful temperaments.


I grew up ith border collies too, one from a pup, the other (male ) a re-home at 18 months. The bitch, Meg had been put with the sheep from early adulthood and was kind, gentle, patient and timid. The male, Ben, started training as soon as we got him, a novice, and was very enthusiastic, loved the work, but impetuous and would barge through the middle of the flock. My dad thought he could breed the perfect dog, given the best characteristics of these parents, but out of the litter of 6 none made the grade and they all went to pet homes, albeit on farms. So even with the perfect environment, training and good gene pool there's no guarantee how your dog will conform to breed standards.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

I can see both sides of the argument, and both "points". On the one hand, the fact that people breed a certain type of dog to be a good fighter after being taught to fight doesn't necessarily mean that the dog will turn into a killer in the hands of someone with understanding of dog behaviour and ability to channel those traits in other directions.

_On the other hand, _there have been loads of posts on other threads about dogs that wouldn't normally fight reacting to "rude" dogs which bowl them over, try to hump them, jump up at them barking etc. If one of the dogs from a "fighting" breed is challenged in such a way, I think what Inca is saying (correct me if I've got you wrong Inca), is that those traits of powerful bodies, strong jaw locks, determination and being unwilling to back down could result in a very nasty dogfight, with potentially fatal consequences. Not that the "fighting" breed wants to start a fight, but if one comes it's way it will jolly well finish it.

I think both points of view are correct. Kind of like a project I did studying turkey sinew formation. One professor produced a very good paper stating one theory, with good evidence, another well known person produced a paper with a completely different conclusion, again backed up by sound evidence. My research on different sinews from different birds of different ages showed that both theories were true ( and I had electron microscopy photographs to prove both of them), the "truth" changed from bird to bird. Thus the person who claims "fighting" dogs are just big softies is as correct, and no more so, than the person who says they are an accident waiting to happen.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

jaw locks? Give me strength......

By wikis lovely definitions, read the temperament section of the "alano Española" ............. Nowt about being iffy with other dogs.....ohhh really?

If we are talking about potential damage a dog can do then surely tho is just based on size pretty much, so are all dogs bigger than a Boston (oh wait - another"fighting breed") now an accident waiting to happen?


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Catharinem said:


> I can see both sides of the argument, and both "points". On the one hand, the fact that people breed a certain type of dog to be a good fighter after being taught to fight doesn't necessarily mean that the dog will turn into a killer in the hands of someone with understanding of dog behaviour and ability to channel those traits in other directions.
> 
> _On the other hand, _there have been loads of posts on other threads about dogs that wouldn't normally fight reacting to "rude" dogs which bowl them over, try to hump them, jump up at them barking etc. If one of the dogs from a "fighting" breed is challenged in such a way, I think what Inca is saying (correct me if I've got you wrong Inca), is that those traits of powerful bodies, strong jaw locks, determination and being unwilling to back down could result in a very nasty dogfight, with potentially fatal consequences. Not that the "fighting" breed wants to start a fight, but if one comes it's way it will jolly well finish it.
> 
> I think both points of view are correct. Kind of like a project I did studying turkey sinew formation. One professor produced a very good paper stating one theory, with good evidence, another well known person produced a paper with a completely different conclusion, again backed up by sound evidence. My research on different sinews from different birds of different ages showed that both theories were true ( and I had electron microscopy photographs to prove both of them), the "truth" changed from bird to bird. Thus the person who claims "fighting" dogs are just big softies is as correct, and no more so, than the person who says they are an accident waiting to happen.


hence my way of saying they are like a hand grenade.You just never know when the pin will be pulled but when it does there will be some devastation.Maybe the pin will never be pulled and maybe it will take something as simple as getting some stinging nettles in a paw.


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

IncaThePup said:


> What breeder wouldn't be proud of one of their dogs being someone's assistant and making a real difference to someone's life?
> 
> JJ alerts me to minicom ringing, doorbell, fire alarm. He then started alerting me cars behind us on the farm track which I hadn't originally taught him I was only intending for him to do the 3 main sounds I needed same as Inca had. He alerted me to a neighbour shouting my name ..another thing I hadn't specifically taught.
> 
> ...


I don't doubt that JJ has more than proven his worth as your assistance dog.

However, in return for his service, you really owe it to him to learn about his breed instincts, and teach him how to control them appropriately, rather than just stopping unwanted behaviours with corrections. From what you say, he comes across as a frustrated dog.

So perhaps you ought to consider "thanking" him for all of the tasks he performs for you by helping him work through his issues. It'd probably be far more useful to him than new toys/hoodies etc.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

IncaThePup said:


> Did you read the article?
> 
> QUOTE:
> 
> _"Most of us know that pit bulls, *especially fighting-bred ones*, are still some of the most abused dogs on this planet. But Theodore and I know that they can also be some of the most forgiving. I am so glad that at least some *victims of dogfighting* are given a chance at life as a pet dog now" UNQUOTE_


Another [hypothetical] scenario:

Let's imagine an irresponsible, unscrupulous cat breeder decided it would be a good idea to breed cats that are inherently deaf. S/he learns that white cats which have blue eyes are more likely to be deaf (and blind ). She selectively breeds white, blue eyed cats, holds back deaf kittens, and breeds from them once they're "mature".

Result? Some of the litter(s) are more likely to be deaf, but she didn't breed an existing deafness gene, just bred for the characteristics most likely to attain deaf kittens.

That's what dog fighters are doing. They're not breeding for a fighting "gene", just selectively breeding dogs which have a set of characteristics which are most likely to produce what they're looking for.

_Disclaimer: No kittens were bred to be deaf in the making of this scenario. _


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)




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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

StormyThai said:


>


lol


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I swear when I thought it couldn't get worse " what if a child" "those breeds bred to fight" and now those "lock jaw" "fighting breeds" :'( I really do despair for dogs I do, I mean what chance do they stand! I'd laugh but its sad really sad when even members in this forum some long term who have had this same conversation over and over and chuffing over again still spout the same myths, christ and to have Wiki quoted as a source of fact is nearly as bad as using the chuffing tabloid press used as reference material! Seriously what hope do dogs have??


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Meezey said:


> I swear when I thought it couldn't get worse " what if a child" "those breeds bred to fight" and now those "lock jaw" breeds :'( I really do despair for dogs I do, I mean what chance do they stand! I'd laugh but its sad really sad when even members in this forum some long term who have had this same conversation over and over and chuffing over again still spout the same myths, christ and to have Wiki quoted as a source of fact is nearly as bad as using the chuffing tabloid press used as reference material! Seriously what hope do dogs have??


none just like us.We are all doomed.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)




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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

LinznMilly said:


> Another [hypothetical] scenario:
> 
> Let's imagine an irresponsible, unscrupulous cat breeder decided it would be a good idea to breed cats that are inherently deaf. S/he learns that white cats which have blue eyes are more likely to be deaf (and blind ). She selectively breeds white, blue eyed cats, holds back deaf kittens, and breeds from them once they're "mature".
> 
> ...


Yes, appreciate that point completely. However, if over many years certain breeds have proved themselves most likely to have certain traits, it has to follow that they are more likely to exhibit those traits. It seems strange to berate Inca for not knowing that her collie would have a herding instinct ( or traits of most use when training for herding), but seem to deny that those dogs traditionally used for fighting exhibit more of the traits which could be channelled for fighting. In general, sighthounds chase, Labradors love water and carrying things, collies have a "hard eye" on stock, spaniels zig zag, pointers freeze when they see something interesting. Not all dogs will do exactly what it says on the tin, but they are selectively bred over generations to have distinctive traits within the breed. Why else would the forum always be so keen for prospective owners to research the breed? Lets look at the cat example the other way round. Suppose someone really liked a white, blue eyed deaf kitten their friend had got from that breeder? If she didn't have any more available the person might look somewhere else for something similar. She might end up with a white, blue eyed cat who wasn't deaf, but then again the chances of her white, blue eyed cat being deaf would be higher than the expected percentage of deaf cats in the general population. So she might not have got a kitten from stock "bred for deafness", but by going back to the same original type of breeding stock she would have a very good chance of getting a deaf kitten.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> In the same way a good breeder can look at a litter of sheepdogs and tell which ones are going to make good workers and which ones aren't.
> 
> FWIW, fighting is not what is hard wired in to breeds like game bred APBT. * What is hard wired in to them is a lot of prey drive, a tendency towards dog intolerance, determination, agility, strength, obliviousness to pain, a huge desire to please their humans, and what I call being an "adrenaline junkie". * An adrenaline junkie dog who gets a rush out of fighting is going to be hard to break of that, however that same adrenaline junkie dog can make an amazing sport dog and if never allowed to fight, won't connect fighting with the adrenaline rush, but will connect say, agility with it.
> The other traits, as you can see, some make for a really super dog. The APBT who isn't interested in fighting, is low on the dog intolerance scale, high on determination and desire to please, is going to make an amazing dog. As shown by the game bred dog used as the example for the article.


Totally agree with this - thirty years of staffies have taught me that if they don't learn to fight early and get that rush, then the odds are that they won't fight at all - which is why it's so important for EVERYONE to make their dogs behave themselves - your "naughty" dog could produce someone else's killer. The thrill of chasing, catching, shaking etc can lead some dogs to regard others as toys - it's not aggression as such though that is how it presents.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

[QUOTE="simplysardonic, post: 1064282489, member: 26871"
I'm refraining from comment on the fighting thing, because apparently everyone's an expert when it comes to the whys & wherefores on that particular subject, although I'm still waiting for my now 7 year old Rottie mix to 'turn' into whatever people think he's going to 'turn' into. I'm hoping a unicorn, because I've always wanted one of those [/QUOTE]

Me too! Can I have a ride? I'm a born-again virgin, so the unicorn should be okay with me.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Lauren5159 said:


>


please can i ?


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

@IncaThePup
ill tell you a story about a dog bred for fighting, you might have read it before
Thunder was born in a fighting kennels, shes a boxer x mastiff
when she was old enough they tried to train her and get her to fight,
she wouldnt
so
they tried to mate her up, the 'kennels' even had a rape stand
but
she never had pups
so
they broke her teeth, tied her up with both rope and barbed wire
and chucked her in as a bait dog
when they were finished with her they tied her with barbed wire, and threw this skin and bone, wreck of a dog out of a moving car, on a busy road, in the hope she would get run over
we know all the above because she was rescued and found to be chipped [just how stupid can you get?] to the kennels, they said they had sold her on, but they were raided anyway and all of the above was found, including her id. in a ledger of dogs

she was 4 years old when she came to live here, first as a foster, I was determined she wouldnt stay, but she soon found her way in
shes now 10
in those intervening years shes
been as unofficial pat dog
worked with autistic and sen children and adults
worked in the church comfort club
been part of oap homes where all the residents loved her
learnt to walk nicely beside wheelchairs and buggies [both children and disabled type]
taught umpteen pups, and adult dogs, what it is to be well behaved and loved
taught countless children from age dot upwards how to be around dogs and how much love a dog has

shes retired from all that now, although the children still knock for her to come play, and, she still likes the odd drop of milk from a baby bottle
she has severe arthritis in her front legs, shoulders and neck
and deserves a full on spoiling for however long she has left

Deliberately bred to be *trained* for fighting
yes
wanting to fight however
no no no no
how many times has she, and dogs like her, to prove that before people like you realise
dogs, like people, are individuals?

Think of it like
just because one teenager is a thug, that doesnt make all teenagers thugs

nameste


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

every one always told me my rott was going to hurt someone and kill some one and turn on us and kill my kid and so on and so on and so on.I guess in that sentiment i should be lucky Oliver died too young before he had a chance to do any of this.Although i have to admit that he hurt us all daily by stepping on our feet.He used to turn on our feet as well.Does that count?He bit me daily usually because i shoved my hand in his mouth.Never drew blood though.He drew blood from my feet many many times.ahhh well my unicorn lol.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

How apt...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/finne...-my-puppy_b_8025586.html?utm_hp_ref=pit-bulls


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Meezey said:


> Wiki ? Hold on I'm going to submit my Wiki about the Leprechaun that lives under ASDA.


It's not a leprechaun - it's a Sprite!

You know nothing, Jon Snow.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

mrs phas said:


> @IncaThePup
> ill tell you a story about a dog bred for fighting, you might have read it before
> Thunder was born in a fighting kennels, shes a boxer x mastiff
> when she was old enough they tried to train her and get her to fight,
> ...


Made my eyes leak x


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Meezey said:


> Made my eyes leak x


you old softy, 
how many times have you read about her now
We love her to bits xxx


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

lostbear said:


> It's not a leprechaun - it's a Sprite!
> 
> You know nothing, Jon Snow.


Are you sure its not the tango man? [showing my age]


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

mrs phas said:


> @IncaThePup
> ill tell you a story about a dog bred for fighting, you might have read it before
> Thunder was born in a fighting kennels, shes a boxer x mastiff
> when she was old enough they tried to train her and get her to fight,
> ...


if people would just get this through their thick skulls it would be nice.Some turn out as you have stated and well others not so lucky.it is an individual struggle.Each dog is different and each dog will act different.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

mrs phas said:


> @IncaThePup
> ill tell you a story about a dog bred for fighting, you might have read it before
> Thunder was born in a fighting kennels, shes a boxer x mastiff
> when she was old enough they tried to train her and get her to fight,
> ...


This is heartbreaking - that poor tortured dog. I'm so glad she had a happy ending - how many more don't?


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

mrs phas said:


> Are you sure its not the tango man? [showing my age]


tango and cash?


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Meezey said:


> I swear when I thought it couldn't get worse " what if a child" "those breeds bred to fight" and now those "lock jaw" "fighting breeds" :'( I really do despair for dogs I do, I mean what chance do they stand! I'd laugh but its sad really sad when even members in this forum some long term who have had this same conversation over and over and chuffing over again still spout the same myths, christ and to have Wiki quoted as a source of fact is nearly as bad as using the chuffing tabloid press used as reference material! Seriously what hope do dogs have??


 Denying a dog breed's history is not doing it any favours. Some dog breeds have been developed to be good fighters - it's horrid, I hate it, but it is a fact of history. On the one hand people are berating others for not researching a breed, but whenever a breed has a history we don't want to associate ourselves with in the modern age we try to deny the traits they have. What is wrong with the expression "jaw lock" by the way? I'm not suggesting that the dog's basic anatomy works in a different way to other dogs, but it does stand to reason that a dog with very powerful jaw muscles and determination is going to have a stronger grip than a slim muzzled dog. You might as well complain at the expression "fast" being used for a greyhound.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

mrs phas said:


> Are you sure its not the tango man? [showing my age]


Not enough room for him to get in under the shop - it's only a tiny entrance tunnel - like a rabbit's.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

lostbear said:


> [QUOTE="simplysardonic, post: 1064282489, member: 26871"
> I'm refraining from comment on the fighting thing, because apparently everyone's an expert when it comes to the whys & wherefores on that particular subject, although I'm still waiting for my now 7 year old Rottie mix to 'turn' into whatever people think he's going to 'turn' into. I'm hoping a unicorn, because I've always wanted one of those


Me too! Can I have a ride? I'm a born-again virgin, so the unicorn should be okay with me.[/QUOTE]

Born again doesn't work, only for real.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Catharinem said:


> Denying a dog breed's history is not doing it any favours. Some dog breeds have been developed to be good fighters - it's horrid, I hate it, but it is a fact of history. On the one hand people are berating others for not researching a breed, but whenever a breed has a history we don't want to associate ourselves with in the modern age we try to deny the traits they have. What is wrong with the expression "jaw lock" by the way? I'm not suggesting that the dog's basic anatomy works in a different way to other dogs, but it does stand to reason that a dog with very powerful jaw muscles and determination is going to have a stronger grip than a slim muzzled dog. You might as well complain at the expression "fast" being used for a greyhound.


uggggg you really don't seem to get it.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Catharinem said:


> Denying a dog breed's history is not doing it any favours. Some dog breeds have been developed to be good fighters - it's horrid, I hate it, but it is a fact of history. On the one hand people are berating others for not researching a breed, but whenever a breed has a history we don't want to associate ourselves with in the modern age we try to deny the traits they have. What is wrong with the expression "jaw lock" by the way? I'm not suggesting that the dog's basic anatomy works in a different way to other dogs, but it does stand to reason that a dog with very powerful jaw muscles and determination is going to have a stronger grip than a slim muzzled dog. You might as well complain at the expression "fast" being used for a greyhound.


I can see where you're coming from, but "jaw lock" actually implies that there is a mechanism which the dog can deliberately or instinctively engage which will prevent their jaws being opened - this is far from the truth.

But you are right in that they have powerful masseter muscles and can exert and maintain a great deal of pressure.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Catharinem said:


> Denying a dog breed's history is not doing it any favours. * Some dog breeds have been developed to be good fighters - it's horrid, I hate it*, but it is a fact of history. On the one hand people are berating others for not researching a breed, but whenever a breed has a history we don't want to associate ourselves with in the modern age we try to deny the traits they have. What is wrong with the expression "jaw lock" by the way? I'm not suggesting that the dog's basic anatomy works in a different way to other dogs, but it does stand to reason that a dog with very powerful jaw muscles and determination is going to have a stronger grip than a slim muzzled dog. You might as well complain at the expression "fast" being used for a greyhound.


Because there is no such thing as a lock jaw certain breeds don't have it!
This is perfectly written for you.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/finne...-my-puppy_b_8025586.html?utm_hp_ref=pit-bulls


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Rott lover said:


> uggggg you really don't seem to get it.


 I think we're at cross purposes. Explain exactly what you mean.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Meezey said:


> Because there is no such thing as a lock jaw certain breeds don't have it!
> This is perfectly written for you.
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/finne...-my-puppy_b_8025586.html?utm_hp_ref=pit-bulls


 I don't mean lock jaw as in physically made different, unable to open the jaw again, I meant stronger jawed, which coupled with determination could present a problem. I thought I'd made that clear in my post.

The link is from an owner who clearly loves their dog, and I agree with them. They have people crossing the street for them ( me too with my GSD - " look Mummy, a werewolf!"), the people that love them, and the people who seem to support them whilst waiting for them to do something wrong. I'm assuming you put me in that third group. However, if you read my posts in context, I'm saying what the owner himself is saying:

"No one is doubting that pits are large, strong dogs who need training. No one is saying that some of them have been bred to be aggressive. What I am saying is all dogs need training and an understanding of what they're capable of. That's called responsible pet ownership and I've spent most of my life advocating for that." 

Nothing wrong with any of that!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Pitbulls aren't big dogs though, they're medium at best. Which is why Hulk and the rest of them just make the responsible breeders/owners want to cry. They're strong yes, and people owning them should be aware of the positives and the negatives of the breed. But so should the owners of any breed surely? The pibbie mummy types do as much damage to the breed as the fighters.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Catharinem said:


> I don't mean lock jaw as in physically made different, unable to open the jaw again, I meant stronger jawed, which coupled with determination could present a problem. I thought I'd made that clear in my post.
> 
> The link is from an owner who clearly loves their dog, and I agree with them. They have people crossing the street for them ( me too with my GSD - " look Mummy, a werewolf!"), the people that love them, and the people who seem to support them whilst waiting for them to do something wrong. I'm assuming you put me in that third group. However, if you read my posts in context, I'm saying what the owner himself is saying:
> 
> ...


*"Hence whenever the pit bull argument comes up when I'm not around, the same people defending my dog are the same ones who believe that he is, as I stated, one shade of nose color or skipped training class away from multiple homicide. The same folks that believe that he is, by nature, violent and unpredictable and only vigilance can keep him from his true nature.

That scares me more than the haters."*
This is where you and Inca fit.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

lostbear said:


> I can see where you're coming from, but "jaw lock" actually implies that there is a mechanism which the dog can deliberately or instinctively engage which will prevent their jaws being opened - this is far from the truth.
> 
> But you are right in that they have powerful masseter muscles and can exert and maintain a great deal of pressure.


 Didn't mean the first, I did say that not a different anatomy but bigger muscles and more determination.

Meant the second, powerful jaws to exert _and maintain_ pressure.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

But most people when they say locking jaws mean just that. That somehow this one breed has a jaw structure that is different to every other dog and once they bite down you'll never get them off again.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Catharinem said:


> Denying a dog breed's history is not doing it any favours. Some dog breeds have been developed to be good fighters - it's horrid, I hate it, but it is a fact of history. On the one hand people are berating others for not researching a breed, but whenever a breed has a history we don't want to associate ourselves with in the modern age we try to deny the traits they have. What is wrong with the expression "jaw lock" by the way? I'm not suggesting that the dog's basic anatomy works in a different way to other dogs, but it does stand to reason that a dog with very powerful jaw muscles and determination is going to have a stronger grip than a slim muzzled dog. You might as well complain at the expression "fast" being used for a greyhound.


:Singing:Singing:Singing:Singing:Singing:Singing:Singing:Singing:Singing
:Singing:Singing:Singing:Singing:Singing:Singing:Singing:Singing:Singing

thats as near to a
'lalalala i cant hear you anymore'
i can get


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Catharinem said:


> Didn't mean the first, I did say that not a different anatomy but bigger muscles and more determination.
> 
> Meant the second, powerful jaws to exert _and maintain_ pressure.


Of course you didn't! If you didn't mean it would would have said the latter!

All dogs have powerful jaws and maintain pressure they are dogs!


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Meezey said:


> *"Hence whenever the pit bull argument comes up when I'm not around, the same people defending my dog are the same ones who believe that he is, as I stated, one shade of nose color or skipped training class away from multiple homicide. The same folks that believe that he is, by nature, violent and unpredictable and only vigilance can keep him from his true nature.
> 
> That scares me more than the haters."*
> This is where you and Inca fit.


Not at all. Or I wouldn't have taken on a nervous aggressive GSD - or "Alsatian" as those who believe them to be vicious call them. They used to be the dog of choice for keeping on a chain in the back yard as guard dogs. But I am saying that a powerful dog with a powerful bite, IF he bites, can cause a heck of a lot more damage, and people need to be aware of that.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Catharinem said:


> Denying a dog breed's history is not doing it any favours. Some dog breeds have been developed to be good fighters - it's horrid, I hate it, but it is a fact of history. On the one hand people are berating others for not researching a breed, but whenever a breed has a history we don't want to associate ourselves with in the modern age we try to deny the traits they have. What is wrong with the expression "jaw lock" by the way? I'm not suggesting that the dog's basic anatomy works in a different way to other dogs, but it does stand to reason that a dog with very powerful jaw muscles and determination is going to have a stronger grip than a slim muzzled dog. You might as well complain at the expression "fast" being used for a greyhound.


I would just like to point out that pit bulls are not a breed, they are a type.

As for bite force the pit on average has 235 pounds of pressure, whereas Dobes have around 600 pounds of pressure.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

If the argument is big, strong dog with powerful jaws then why is the freak out never about newfies or saint bernards?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

LouLatch said:


> dogs bred to fight!!!!!! Really!!?? It amazes me people still think this way. They are not bred to fight people simply take advantage of other traits the breed has. As ouesi has already said. Just as collies traits are exploited to herd sheep! If a dog is not taught to fight it won't just decide to attack. Just as an untrained collie wouldn't herd sheep but chase them around having a ball.
> 
> Oh my god!!!


Of course an untrained collie will herd. A good collie pup will herd ducks, it will crouch and move them where it wants to and use its eye. They have to be trained to herd when and where the shepherd wants them to but they will not 'chase them around having a ball' unless they are going to end up a very failed sheepdog.

All breeds have traits and there are exceptions in every breed but some breeds are far more likely to have aggressive traits than others. Does not mean that every individual is going to be and does not mean there are not plenty of aggressive dogs in other breeds. If this was not the case then poodles would be used as fighting dogs, cavaliers as police dogs etc. There would be no specific breeds suitable for specific jobs.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

IncaThePup said:


> What breeder wouldn't be proud of one of their dogs being someone's assistant and making a real difference to someone's life?
> 
> JJ alerts me to minicom ringing, doorbell, fire alarm. He then started alerting me cars behind us on the farm track which I hadn't originally taught him I was only intending for him to do the 3 main sounds I needed same as Inca had. He alerted me to a neighbour shouting my name ..another thing I hadn't specifically taught.
> 
> ...


So...his unwanted behaviours are because he's a collie, but other people's dog's are because they're not good owners?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Catharinem said:


> Not at all. Or I wouldn't have taken on a nervous aggressive GSD - or "Alsatian" as those who believe them to be vicious call them. They used to be the dog of choice for keeping on a chain in the back yard as guard dogs. But I am saying that a powerful dog with a powerful bite, IF he bites, can cause a heck of a lot more damage, and people need to be aware of that.


That's not why people call them "Alsatians"! Good God no harm harm to you @catherinem you REALLY are doing yourself no favors in this thread!!!


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

every big dog throughout my life has had a bad rap at some point.St Bernards Dobys Rotts pitts and on and on.As a breed becomes popular for some reason or another they become more abundant.Not just by people who love the particular breed and understand it but also by the people who just like it because it is fashionable or it is the new "in" breed.There fore there are many more issues with said breed.more bites make more problems and so on and so on.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Catharinem said:


> Not at all. Or I wouldn't have taken on a nervous aggressive GSD - or "Alsatian" as those who believe them to be vicious call them. .


Nope, most people who slip up and call them Alsations, are of a certain age or older, like myself
those who were brought up with the name Alsation being the norm , because of certain connotations regarding the name *German* Shepherd Dog and the war/s
the name Alsation [in brackets] was only removed, by the KC, from the breed name in or around 2010
With all due respect to you, is it possible you can get ANY of your facts correct?


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Meezey said:


> Of course you didn't! If you didn't mean it would would have said the latter!
> 
> All dogs have powerful jaws and maintain pressure they are dogs!


What is wrong with the expression "jaw lock" by the way? I'm not suggesting that the dog's basic anatomy works in a different way to other dogs, but it does stand to reason that a dog with very powerful jaw muscles and determination is going to have a stronger grip than a slim muzzled dog. You might as well complain at the expression "fast" being used for a greyhound.

#81 Catharinem, 35 minutes ago

See above post for my meaning. Yes, all dogs have powerful jaws, but some breeds have more powerful jaws than others. Just as all dogs can swim, but certain breeds are much better at it and enjoy it more. This stemmed from a discussion about collies herding, and dismay that the breed hadn't been researched as having that trait. The fact certain breeds have been used for fighting both historically and more recently doesn't make them "bad" dogs, but to understand a dog is to understand it's history. Hence why puppy owners are advised to "research the breed" before getting their dog.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Because people keep confusing dog aggression for human aggression, what if it's a child next they cry while clutching their pearls.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Blitz said:


> Of course an untrained collie will herd. A good collie pup will herd ducks, it will crouch and move them where it wants to and use its eye. They have to be trained to herd when and where the shepherd wants them to but they will not 'chase them around having a ball' unless they are going to end up a very failed sheepdog.
> 
> All breeds have traits and there are exceptions in every breed but some breeds are far more likely to have aggressive traits than others. Does not mean that every individual is going to be and does not mean there are not plenty of aggressive dogs in other breeds. If this was not the case then poodles would be used as fighting dogs, cavaliers as police dogs etc. There would be no specific breeds suitable for specific jobs.


 This is what I'm trying to say, but people seem to enjoy taking offense. Oh well...


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Nicky10 said:


> If the argument is big, strong dog with powerful jaws then why is the freak out never about newfies or saint bernards?


'Cos they'ze fluffy . . . .


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Catharinem said:


> See above post for my meaning. Yes, all dogs have powerful jaws, but some breeds have more powerful jaws than others. Just as all dogs can swim, but certain breeds are much better at it and enjoy it more. This stemmed from a discussion about collies herding, and dismay that the breed hadn't been researched as having that trait. The fact certain breeds have been used for fighting both historically and more recently doesn't make them "bad" dogs, but to understand a dog is to understand it's history. Hence why puppy owners are advised to "research the breed" before getting their dog.


so what about people like me, those who have good old fashioned mutts? In fact 9/10 I would pick a mutt, over a breed any day, despite having rehomed, this time, two real breeds
so should we not consider homing them because we do not know which or how many breeds or cross breeds may make up the pup?
after all if we, god forbid, pick a pup from rescue, that has unknown parentage and lineage, we just might be taking a jaw locking, grenade into our homes

clutches pearls and cries
who will save the children???


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

lostbear said:


> 'Cos they'ze fluffy . . . .


And so-oooo CUTE ! xxx


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

look up anywhere on the computer or just google "jaw lock" and tell me what is wrong with that term.So what a pitt is more likely to have tmj or some other kind of jaw abnormality or problem?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Catharinem said:


> This is what I'm trying to say, but people seem to enjoy taking offense. Oh well...


Well if you keep throwing incorrect facts round people will correct you, nothing to do with taking offense...

After World War I and II, German things were not looked upon too kindly by the Americans and British. To avoid using the word German, the name Alsatian was given to the German Shepherd, after the region of Alsace-Lorraine.

*Lockjaw in Dogs*

*DOG HEALTH LIBRARY*
10.05.10

Share on facebookShare on twitterShare on pinterest_share

*TETANUS BACILLUS INFECTION IN DOGS*
Tetanus is an occasional disease in dogs, the result of infection with a bacterium called _Clostridium tetani_. This bacterium is normally present in soil and other low oxygen environments, but also in the intestines of mammals and in the dead tissue of the wounds that are created due to injury, surgery, burns, frostbite, and fractures.

One typical feature of this bacterium is that it can live without oxygen (anaerobic) and can remain in the environment for long periods by forming spores. Once favorable conditions are present, such as an injured animal coming into contact with the spores, they are able to release the potent toxin into the body. These potent toxins bind to nerve cells in the body and generate symptoms that are characteristic of this disease, such as muscle spasms and stiffening of the limbs.

The severity of the symptoms will often depend on the number of organisms that are able to enter the body and the quantity of toxins produced in the body, but this is generally considered a serious condition warranting immediate treatment.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Nicky10 said:


> Because people keep confusing dog aggression for human aggression, what if it's a child next they cry while clutching their pearls.


. . . against their twin-setted buzzums, and their well-thumbed copies of the "Daily Wail" slide down onto the Axminster . . .

(Sometimes this stuff just writes itself . . . . )


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

mrs phas said:


> so what about people like me, those who have good old fashioned mutts? In fact 9/10 I would pick a mutt, over a breed any day, despite having rehomed, this time, two real breeds
> so should we not consider homing them because we do not know which or how many breeds or cross breeds may make up the pup?
> after all if we, god forbid, pick a pup from rescue, that has unknown parentage and lineage, we just might be taking a jaw locking, grenade into our homes
> 
> ...


No one will save the children or our selves for that matter


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Meezey said:


> That's not why people call them "Alsatians"! Good God no harm harm to you @catherinem you REALLY are doing yourself no favors in this thread!!!


 In the day they were popular as chained up guard dogs more people called them Alsations. Most of the people who have shown worry towards them have referred to them as such, whereas all the people who love them refer to them as GSDs ( in my experience, talking to me about my dogs). The "Alsation" seems to have a worse reputation than the GSD even though they're the same dog. Might be a generational thing, those people who grew up with calling them "Alsations" saw many of them chained as guard dogs.

Instead of arguing my phraseology ( I've been up since 5:30am, having only got to bed at 1:30am), can you just try and get the point I'm making, that certain breeds of dogs will be more likely to exhibit certain traits. If that's taking an interest in stock, running fast after small furries, or refusing to back down from a fight, that's something owners should be aware of when choosing their dog. People are having a go at Inca for not realising her collie might herd, but refusing to accept that a fighting breed could inflict more damage. Arguing over phrasing doesn't achieve a lot.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Meezey said:


> Well if you keep throwing incorrect facts round people will correct you, nothing to do with taking offense...
> 
> After World War I and II, German things were not looked upon too kindly by the Americans and British. To avoid using the word German, the name Alsatian was given to the German Shepherd, after the region of Alsace-Lorraine.
> 
> ...


 Now who's got incorrect facts? Pretty sure I said jaw lock ( as in closing jaws tightly and not letting go), not lockjaw, which as a biologist and farmer I hope I'd know was otherwise known as tetanus. Or maybe, being tired, I thought fighting dogs caught tetanus when they bit each other!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Catharinem said:


> In the day they were popular as chained up guard dogs more people called them Alsations. Most of the people who have shown worry towards them have referred to them as such, whereas all the people who love them refer to them as GSDs ( in my experience, talking to me about my dogs). The "Alsation" seems to have a worse reputation than the GSD even though they're the same dog. Might be a generational thing, those people who grew up with calling them "Alsations" saw many of them chained as guard dogs.
> 
> Instead of arguing my phraseology ( I've been up since 5:30am, having only got to bed at 1:30am), can you just try and get the point I'm making, that certain breeds of dogs will be more likely to exhibit certain traits. If that's taking an interest in stock, running fast after small furries, or refusing to back down from a fight, that's something owners should be aware of when choosing their dog. People are having a go at Inca for not realising her collie might herd, but refusing to accept that a fighting breed could inflict more damage. Arguing over phrasing doesn't achieve a lot.


Because that's what they were known as then nothing to do with them being called Alsatians because they were chain up guard dogs, I'm not arguing phrasing, I'm merely pointing out certain breeds don't have lock jaw and GSD's weren't called Alsatians because they were seen as vicious or aggressive but merely they were known as Alsatians because at the time most people called GSD's Alsatians for the reason given.

There is NO such thing as a fighting breed!!! Urrghh really what part of that don't you understand?


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Catharinem said:


> In the day they were popular as chained up guard dogs more people called them Alsations. Most of the people who have shown worry towards them have referred to them as such, whereas all the people who love them refer to them as GSDs ( in my experience, talking to me about my dogs). The "Alsation" seems to have a worse reputation than the GSD even though they're the same dog. Might be a generational thing, those people who grew up with calling them "Alsations" saw many of them chained as guard dogs.
> 
> Instead of arguing my phraseology ( I've been up since 5:30am, having only got to bed at 1:30am), can you just try and get the point I'm making, that certain breeds of dogs will be more likely to exhibit certain traits. If that's taking an interest in stock, running fast after small furries, or refusing to back down from a fight, that's something owners should be aware of when choosing their dog. People are having a go at Inca for not realising her collie might herd, but refusing to accept that a fighting breed could inflict more damage. Arguing over phrasing doesn't achieve a lot.


but those are all comparative.If you want to make them true than compare them.Refusing to accept that a fighting breed could inflict more damage than what?A poodle ?of course.Than a rott maybe but not as quick. Bigger mouth and more bite pressure and holding pressure.So as you can see there is room for improvement with your comment.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Catharinem said:


> Now who's got incorrect facts? Pretty sure I said jaw lock ( as in closing jaws tightly and not letting go), not lockjaw, which as a biologist and farmer I hope I'd know was otherwise known as tetanus. Or maybe, being tired, I thought fighting dogs caught tetanus when they bit each other!


No one other than yourself hence me pointing out this is the only way a dogs jaw locks! Seemingly as a farmer and biologist this was not clear to you


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Have you ever seen a proper american pitbull terrier, so big, so scary


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Meezey said:


> No one just pointing out this is the only way a dogs jaw locks! Seemingly as a farmer and biologist this was clear to you


ok now i have to burst a bubble.This is not the only way a jaw can lock.There is tmj and mandibular disorder along with several other things i cant actually pronounce.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Rott lover said:


> ok now i have to burst a bubble.This is not the only way a jaw can lock.There is tmj and mandibular disorder along with several other things i cant actually pronounce.


Haha thank you.  but is it breed specific?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Nicky10 said:


> Have you ever seen a proper american pitbull terrier, so big, so scary


Lucky enough to see them most weekends, dunno how me and my dogs are still alive! Nor the dogs they live with....


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Meezey said:


> Lucky enough to see them most weekends, dunno how me and my dogs are still alive! Nor the dogs they live with....


 I bet they even let children into those shows


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Nicky10 said:


> I bet they even let children into those shows


Yes and I even know some that live with children in the same house....


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Meezey said:


> Because that's what they were known as then nothing to do with them being called Alsatians! I'm not arguing phrasing, I'm merely pointing out certain breeds don't have lock jaw and GSD's weren't called Alsatians because they were seen as vicious or aggressive but merely they were known as Alsatians because at the time most people called GSD'd Alsatians at the time.
> 
> There is NO such thing as a fighting breed!!! Urrghh really what part of that don't you understand?


Yes, aware of name history GSD/Alsatian. Back in the day they were popular on chains as guard dogs most people called them Alsatians. In many people's minds the word "Alsatian" brings up pictures of a guard dog on a chain. Name changed over to GSD and not used so much as guard dogs, so less association of the name with being a guard dog. In my experience speaking to people those who recognise the dog as an Alsatian are concerned, those that recognise it as a GSD want to be introduced. Not going to argue this any more, am too knackered for word games.

As far as I'm aware NO breed inherently has lock jaw - but you have put it the wrong way round just now yourself, so maybe we all make mistakes when typing tired? Tetanus, lockjaw, is an infection not a trait.

Jaw lock in the way I phrased it " a strong jaw lock" meant the dog wasn't going to let go easily ( that would be the "determination" trait coming through).

No such thing as a fighting breed? Well, there you are historically inaccurate. Certain dogs were bred for fighting, same as certain dogs were bred for hunting. Not to say they'd all be good at their "job".


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

I think there's been a mix up somewhere.

No BREEDS were specifically created for fighting other dogs. Yes, traits were manipulated in order to create great fighters, but no BREED was specifically created for that purpose.

However, there have been thousands of individual DOGS bred over the years purely for the purpose of fighting. Dogs bred with emphasis and attention on certain traits that will (with the training) make good fighters.

It sounds like some wires have been crossed somewhere. Some posters are talking about dogs others are talking about breeds.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Meezey said:


> No one other than yourself hence me pointing out this is the only way a dogs jaw locks! Seemingly as a farmer and biologist this was not clear to you


 Oh, Gawd, too tired for this. Have explained context many times over. Pardon my phraseology after 4 hours sleep in the last 38. Night Night, sleep tight:Yawn


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Catharinem said:


> Yes, aware of name history GSD/Alsatian. Back in the day they were popular on chains as guard dogs most people called them Alsatians. In many people's minds the word "Alsatian" brings up pictures of a guard dog on a chain. Name changed over to GSD and not used so much as guard dogs, so less association of the name with being a guard dog. In my experience speaking to people those who recognise the dog as an Alsatian are concerned, those that recognise it as a GSD want to be introduced. .


Really odd that all my guard dogs were known as GSD's!!


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Lauren5159 said:


> I think there's been a mix up somewhere.
> 
> No BREEDS were specifically created for fighting other dogs. Yes, traits were manipulated in order to create great fighters, but no BREED was specifically created for that purpose.
> 
> ...


 The phrase was "fighting breed", not "fighting other dogs breed". Plenty of dogs bred for fighting bulls and bears. No, I've already said goodnight, should have resisted looking at fresh post! Really good night all:Yawn


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Catharinem said:


> The phrase was "fighting breed", not "fighting other dogs breed". Plenty of dogs bred for fighting bulls and bears. No, I've already said goodnight, should have resisted looking at fresh post! Really good night all:Yawn


Great danes, dogos etc were hunting dogs not fighting. There is a difference, or was a ridgeback bred to fight lions not hold them until the hunters got there?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Nicky10 said:


> Great danes, dogos etc were hunting dogs not fighting. There is a difference, or was a ridgeback bred to fight lions not hold them until the hunters got there?


Oh dogos another breed I've had the pleasure of meeting with myself and dogs and other dogs at show managed to get out alive!!!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Meezey said:


> Oh dogos another breed I've had the pleasure of meeting with myself and dogs and other dogs at show managed to get out alive!!!


I wonder why when they talk about banned breeds no one mentions filas? There's a breed that truly doesn't belong in most people's hands.

I've heard dogos don't quite live up to their rep


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Nicky10 said:


> I wonder why when they talk about banned breeds no one mentions filas? There's a breed that truly doesn't belong in most people's hands.
> 
> I've heard dogos don't quite live up to their rep


Lovely dogs in all honestly pretty unimpressive and unimposing on meeting them, just gorgeous, personally really like them, there are many other none banned breeds I'd more wary of in the UK!


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Catharinem said:


> The phrase was "fighting breed", not "fighting other dogs breed". Plenty of dogs bred for fighting bulls and bears. No, I've already said goodnight, should have resisted looking at fresh post! Really good night all:Yawn


Bloody hell, really? I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and that's how you respond?

You were talking in relation to Pit Bulls at the start and how they were bred for fighting and how they miraculously 'lock' their jaws. The breed was not created with fighting in mind. Instead they have become somewhat victims of the traits in which we bred in to them.

Therefore, get this - No breed was created to fight other dogs! See what I did there? I'm not talking about fighting as a whole, I'm talking about fighting other dogs. Which takes us back to the first points and your lack of understanding of Pit Bulls.

Jeez!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

And if she means war dogs or descendants of them, good luck banning wolfhounds . I mean there are even stories of battles being settled on the fights between prized hounds


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Am I going to have to break out Dangerous Dog bingo again?


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

It's been a while


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2015)

Okay, as usual, lots and lots of misconceptions and misinformation floating about....
I started quoting messages to reply to them, but I think I'll just make a general post.

*Bred to fight*:
Yes, it is true that several breeds were bred to fight, including APBT (American Pit Bull Terriers). But what does "bred to fight" actually mean?
Historically, it meant selecting for the traits that make a dog a good fighter in the specific context of a pit fight. These traits did not mean the dog would automatically be a good fighter, it just stacked the odds in favor of creating a good fighter if they were trained to do so.

Even game bred pitbulls don't all turn out to be fighters, some go through training, go in to their first real fight, get hurt, and decide this fighting thing sucks and go out of their way to avoid doing it again. Others show absolutely zero inclination to fight. Others might not be very keen the first few times, but then start to really get that rush out of it and turn in to those adrenaline junkies who love it. The range is all over the place.

Knowledgeable breeders still select for true APBT traits and if they are reputable, will make sure their dogs go to appropriate homes. 
However the market is now flooded with the most ridiculous ignorance, and there are a lot of unsafe, unstable pitbulls out there as well. Traditionally a pitbull fought in the pit but also did all sorts of other tasks for the owner that required self-control and stability. Stupid breeding is causing a lot of that stability of temperament to be lost.

But of course pitbulls are not unique in their popularity causing poor breeding practices to taint the breed.
Look at goldens and spaniels, there is some scary resource guarding issues cropping up in those breeds that can make them very dangerous dogs. That's a nature issue there too, that nurture can only temper so much.

*How do you know they won't turn?*:
In the same way you don't expect that collie who shows little promise as a herder to all of a sudden become a prodigy.
Sure, it takes a while for instincts and full maturity to kick in. With bull-breeds social maturity can take a long time, and sometimes that happy-go-lucky 2 year old will mature in to a far less tolerant dog or even start showing out and out DA as he reaches maturity at 3 or even as late as 4 years.

Knowledgeable owners take that tendency for dog intolerance in to account and are not surprised by it if it turns up. Handled intelligently, you end up with a dog selective dog who is a perfectly safe dog, just not free-for-all dog park material (which arguably no dog is - but I digress). 
This slow to mature thing does take novice owners by surprise and feeds the "suddenly turned" myth. The dog didn't suddenly turn, the dog just reached maturity, started showing some early signs of lack of tolerance that were missed, and when the dog finally did do something obvious it seemed like it came out of the blue. But of course it didn't. It was just lack of skills and knowledge on the part of the owners.

Some die-hard bull-breed advocates out there will revert to the adage of "never trust your pitbull not to fight". Meaning, don't ever leave your dogs alone unsupervised, (like loose in the house instead of crated separately), and don't be surprised by a late bloomer dog. Basically, knowing the traits, manage them intelligently.

There are oodles of wonderful, stable, safe pitbulls in this country who are fantastic dogs. Many of them rescues who came from the worst imaginable conditions. Part of breeding a dog who would fight in the ring over and over meant selecting for an incredibly resilient temperament. I have a bull-breed mix, and his resilience is as jaw dropping as it is also frustrating. This is a dog who was abandoned, starved, then beaten, kicked with steel toe boots, all during the first year of his life - his formative years. Zero socialization. Yet he adores every person he meets and has not shown an ounce of fear of humans ever, has zero issues with environment or new situations, jumps in to anything I ask him to do, and stresses over nothing. He's also the same dog who's body bears the scars of his many brushes with lack of self-preservation, because again, nothing fazes him, not even getting his face kicked by a shod horse or his ribs impaled by a tree branch or having been skunked 4 or 5 times now, I loose track .

That ability to brush off adversity also means he doesn't learn from painful mistakes. It also means that dogs like him can suffer the most unspeakable abuse, and still confidently walk up to humans all loose and happy. They are (unfortunately for them) a very forgiving breed, and thus easy prey for unscrupulous people. I seriously don't know of any other breed that is as resilient and forgiving as this one. It's a blessing for owners like me, but for the breed in general it's a curse...


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## LouLatch (Jul 2, 2012)

Blitz said:


> Of course an untrained collie will herd. A good collie pup will herd ducks, it will crouch and move them where it wants to and use its eye. They have to be trained to herd when and where the shepherd wants them to but they will not 'chase them around having a ball' unless they are going to end up a very failed sheepdog.
> 
> All breeds have traits and there are exceptions in every breed but some breeds are far more likely to have aggressive traits than others. Does not mean that every individual is going to be and does not mean there are not plenty of aggressive dogs in other breeds. If this was not the case then poodles would be used as fighting dogs, cavaliers as police dogs etc. There would be no specific breeds suitable for specific jobs.


Okay whatever! There are also many that would just chase as they get over excited. I've seen it but with training they can become useful dogs.

All I'm saying is that there's no such breed that is born with a default function to do anything, they are not pre-programmed robots. Fighting or herding humans exploit their behaviours/traits for their own desired purpose.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Just caught up with this thread....all I can say is I am glad I didn't have a chance to come on here since yesterday morning, I don't think there is enough popcorn at my local Tesco to have kept me going with this thread yesterday!


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Im confused... when I first read the original article I thought it was all about how some dogs have positive or negative character traits that will be present no matter what happens in their upbringing. So nurture will only take you so far if your dog is inherently fearful/confident/aggressive/happy/etc.
Apparently it was all about the pros and cons of 'devil dogs' though! :Yawn


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2015)

catz4m8z said:


> Im confused... when I first read the original article I thought it was all about how some dogs have positive or negative character traits that will be present no matter what happens in their upbringing. So nurture will only take you so far if your dog is inherently fearful/confident/aggressive/happy/etc.
> Apparently it was all about the pros and cons of 'devil dogs' though! :Yawn


I for one was rather surprised to log on after work yesterday and see it had morphed in to 6 pages! Normally when I post an article, 3 or 4 people comment and that's it!
I liked this write-up for the balance, and the clarification about rescue dogs since that myth that rescues are & will always be unpredictable is still apparently quite pervasive. Who knew it would turn in to a devil dog thread!


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

catz4m8z said:


> Im confused... when I first read the original article I thought it was all about how some dogs have positive or negative character traits that will be present no matter what happens in their upbringing. So nurture will only take you so far if your dog is inherently fearful/confident/aggressive/happy/etc.
> Apparently it was all about the pros and cons of 'devil dogs' though! :Yawn


They were my thoughts too, glad it's not just me !


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

picaresque said:


> It's been a while


Excellent Bingo Card, except it misses out a really important "fact" - GSD's (or "Alsations", to give them their true, killer-dog name) are half-wolf* and CANNOT BE TRUSTED.

At all.

Anywhere or with anyone.

They are not "devil dogs", because they are far to dangerous for Satan to have hanging around the Hellmouth where they might take a lump out of any passing demon or imp. THAT is how dangerous they are!

*_You would not believe how many people say this to me when there is a GSD about - and they say it with a straight face and in all seriousness.
_
Oh - sorry - forgot the multiple exclamation marks. Here, have these - put them in where you think they fit best. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

lullabydream said:


> Just caught up with this thread....all I can say is I am glad I didn't have a chance to come on here since yesterday morning, I don't think there is enough popcorn at my local Tesco to have kept me going with this thread yesterday!


I have a family-sized bag of crisps - here, have a handful.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> Here are a few articles you might find of interest:
> http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/impulse-control-everyone
> http://denisefenzi.com/2012/07/10/high-drive-and-impulse-control/
> http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/LoweringArousal.pdf
> ...


Nothing to do with this thread, just wanted to thank you for these links. Found them really useful. I've been playing some of the impulse games with Phoebe all morning and we're both loving it. It's surprising just how quickly she's catching on and learning to use some self control. Thanks again!


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Burrowzig said:


> He didn't LEARN the collie traits at all. They're hard wired into the brain. That's what makes a breed - any breed - what it is. I can't believe you got a collie (or any breed) without understanding that.





ouesi said:


> In the same way a good breeder can look at a litter of sheepdogs and tell which ones are going to make good workers and which ones aren't.
> 
> FWIW, fighting is not what is hard wired in to breeds like game bred APBT. What is hard wired in to them is a lot of prey drive, a tendency towards dog intolerance, determination, agility, strength, obliviousness to pain, a huge desire to please their humans, and what I call being an "adrenaline junkie". An adrenaline junkie dog who gets a rush out of fighting is going to be hard to break of that, however that same adrenaline junkie dog can make an amazing sport dog and if never allowed to fight, won't connect fighting with the adrenaline rush, but will connect say, agility with it.
> The other traits, as you can see, some make for a really super dog. The APBT who isn't interested in fighting, is low on the dog intolerance scale, high on determination and desire to please, is going to make an amazing dog. As shown by the game bred dog used as the example for the article.





dandogman said:


> I see what you're saying... I've said it before and got lynched...
> 
> ETA: I am not saying certain breeds are 'aggressive' etc, but surely some breeds are more likely to resort of this type of behaviour due to their breed. e.g. Terriers for example can be quick to react as they'd need to be if hunting etc.
> All IncaThePup is saying that JJ demonstrates breed typical behaviours that he hasn't learnt from anywhere. Similar to my Lab retrieving and my terrier killing rats... it's natural. I don't think ITP has said anything negative...





Jazmine said:


> Goodness me, knowing the breeder you got JJ from, I am very surprised they let you have one of their puppies when you clearly have no actual knowledge of the breed whatsoever. Makes me want to reconsider my opinion of said breeder.
> 
> Time and time again your posts seem to show complete and utter ignorance towards various breeds, including your own.





Sweety said:


> Of course there are those mouthbreathing morons who breed dogs to fight. They breed powerful dogs -- wouldn't be much use chucking a whippet in to fight, would it now?
> 
> It doesn't mean that the Bull Breeds want to fight.
> 
> If I were to put my Jack Russell in an enclosed space with a dog that attacked her, I'll guarantee you she would fight. It doesn't mean she was bred to fight.





LinznMilly said:


> Contextual issue, perhaps? Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be reading the 1st bit in bold as to mean that they were bred from stock who had some sort of fighting gene, or instinct, whereas I'm reading it as dogs bred from proven fighting stock - ie, parents that have proven themselves in the ring. Not the same thing at all, for reasons that Ouesi has already pointed out.





SusieRainbow said:


> I grew up ith border collies too, one from a pup, the other (male ) a re-home at 18 months. The bitch, Meg had been put with the sheep from early adulthood and was kind, gentle, patient and timid. The male, Ben, started training as soon as we got him, a novice, and was very enthusiastic, loved the work, but impetuous and would barge through the middle of the flock. My dad thought he could breed the perfect dog, given the best characteristics of these parents, but out of the litter of 6 none made the grade and they all went to pet homes, albeit on farms. So even with the perfect environment, training and good gene pool there's no guarantee how your dog will conform to breed standards.





Catharinem said:


> I can see both sides of the argument, and both "points". On the one hand, the fact that people breed a certain type of dog to be a good fighter after being taught to fight doesn't necessarily mean that the dog will turn into a killer in the hands of someone with understanding of dog behaviour and ability to channel those traits in other directions.
> 
> _On the other hand, _there have been loads of posts on other threads about dogs that wouldn't normally fight reacting to "rude" dogs which bowl them over, try to hump them, jump up at them barking etc. If one of the dogs from a "fighting" breed is challenged in such a way, I think what Inca is saying (correct me if I've got you wrong Inca), is that those traits of powerful bodies, strong jaw locks, determination and being unwilling to back down could result in a very nasty dogfight, with potentially fatal consequences. Not that the "fighting" breed wants to start a fight, but if one comes it's way it will jolly well finish it.
> 
> I think both points of view are correct. Kind of like a project I did studying turkey sinew formation. One professor produced a very good paper stating one theory, with good evidence, another well known person produced a paper with a completely different conclusion, again backed up by sound evidence. My research on different sinews from different birds of different ages showed that both theories were true ( and I had electron microscopy photographs to prove both of them), the "truth" changed from bird to bird. Thus the person who claims "fighting" dogs are just big softies is as correct, and no more so, than the person who says they are an accident waiting to happen.


Just so we're all clear : the very first post was about a pit bull. Second post and then onwards involved collies and other breeds. By the time we'd got on to post 57 it was no longer all about pitbulls was it? So when I say "one of the dogs from a "fighting" breed", I wasn't specifically talking about pitbulls, but dogs whose historical "role" had been for the sport of fighting. That's just their history, no point denying it, doesn't help the breed. If you know their traits you can channel in the right direction. No good saying I know nothing about pitbulls, because I wasn't talking specifically about them, and nor were many of the preceeding 56 posts.

Maybe I shouldn't have used the term jaw lock as some people would interpret that as a physical inability to open their jaws as opposed to sheer determination, I'd have hoped was clear from the context, but maybe not. With 4 hours sleep out of 38 I maybe didn't choose the right way of phrasing things. Basic anatomy of dogs doesn't change from breed to breed, just bigger bones, stronger muscles, longer hair or slimmer muzzles. They're all dogs, built same basic way, you don't suddenly get one who can bend joints in different directions, or dislocate jaws like a snake or something. The skeleton of a Chihuahua is identifiable as a dog and so is the skeleton of a mastiff.

Having been brought up short and challenged about my use of the expression jaw lock, even though I'd explained the context in which it was ,I couldn't really let this go:


Meezey said:


> There is NO such thing as a fighting breed!!! Urrghh really what part of that don't you understand?


Seems if some members post in the wrong style they are howled down and told they mean something completely different (yes, even though a biologist, a farmer, 3 years in rescue including working with dogs used for fighting and/ or badger baiting and taking on a nervous aggressive GSD, apparently I have no idea of basic dog anatomy and believe this sort of dog is one step away from disaster).

On the other hand, if another members says "There is No such thing as a fighting breed", it's accepted that they _meant_ not every dog within that breed will be destined to fight, as opposed to being accused of complete ignorance of the very existence of all breeds which were historically developed for the purpose of fighting.

Certain breeds will have certain traits more prevalent than others. Doesn't mean all collies will make fantastic trials dogs any more than all pitbulls will be fighters, or all rescue GSDs with nervous aggression are dangerous, but awareness of the breed characteristics will help the owner 1) choose a (hopefully) suitable breed and 2) channel its traits in a good direction to make a well balanced, happy dog.


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

Nettles said:


> Nothing to do with this thread, just wanted to thank you for these links. Found them really useful. I've been playing some of the impulse games with Phoebe all morning and we're both loving it. It's surprising just how quickly she's catching on and learning to use some self control. Thanks again!


I was looking for those links again too but couldn't remember who had posted them!! Thanks, I was doing the ball one with JJ this morning in the hall as it was teaming down here.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

The absolute BEST bit about this article for me is this 
"Ultimately, all dogs are individuals, and that's where we need to meet them."


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

Meezey said:


> Lovely dogs in all honestly pretty unimpressive and unimposing on meeting them, just gorgeous, personally really like them, there are many other none banned breeds I'd more wary of in the UK!


Which ones @Meezey - seriously, I respect your opinions so I'm interested.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Catharinem said:


> Just so we're all clear : the very first post was about a pit bull. Second post and then onwards involved collies and other breeds. By the time we'd got on to post 57 it was no longer all about pitbulls was it? So when I say "one of the dogs from a "fighting" breed", I wasn't specifically talking about pitbulls, but dogs whose historical "role" had been for the sport of fighting. That's just their history, no point denying it, doesn't help the breed. If you know their traits you can channel in the right direction. No good saying I know nothing about pitbulls, because I wasn't talking specifically about them, and nor were many of the preceeding 56 posts.
> 
> Maybe I shouldn't have used the term jaw lock as some people would interpret that as a physical inability to open their jaws as opposed to sheer determination, I'd have hoped was clear from the context, but maybe not. With 4 hours sleep out of 38 I maybe didn't choose the right way of phrasing things. Basic anatomy of dogs doesn't change from breed to breed, just bigger bones, stronger muscles, longer hair or slimmer muzzles. They're all dogs, built same basic way, you don't suddenly get one who can bend joints in different directions, or dislocate jaws like a snake or something. The skeleton of a Chihuahua is identifiable as a dog and so is the skeleton of a mastiff.
> 
> ...


do you really not understand ?
even a Labrador, probably as far from what *you* would describe as a 'fighting breed', as you could get
*can be trained to fight*_*
*_
Please!!! Please !!! Please!!! get it into your head

_*NO BREED IS INHERENTLY A FIGHTING BREED
BUT
ANY, AND ALL, BREEDS CAN BE TAUGHT TO FIGHT*_


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

BlaiseinHampshire said:


> Which ones @Meezey - seriously, I respect your opinions so I'm interested.


If I say any on a forum it'll get lynched  Every breed is safe in the right hands, and my concerns are personal  There are a lot of big powerful breeds becoming more popular who are as "people" tolerant as the perceived "devil dogs" of today.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Meezey said:


> If I say any on a forum it'll get lynched  Every breed is safe in the right hands, and my concerns are personal  There are a lot of big powerful breeds becoming more popular who are as "people" tolerant as the perceived "devil dogs" of today.


Damn! I had logged in here just to find out


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

silvi said:


> Damn! I had logged in here just to find out


Hahaha


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

Go on @Meezey - risk it! (Or pm me please; I want to know now!)


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

mrs phas said:


> do you really not understand ?
> even a Labrador, probably as far from what *you* would describe as a 'fighting breed', as you could get
> *can be trained to fight*
> 
> ...


What part of historical accuracy do you not understand? Bull breeds were developed for baiting bulls as a "sport". The clue is in the name!

Where have I said dogs other than bull breeds don't fight?

Where have I said all individuals of bull breeds do fight?

Go back, read my posts properly. For example:

[QUOTE="Catharinem, post: 1064283643, member: 1420679
Certain breeds will have certain traits more prevalent than others. Doesn't mean all collies will make fantastic trials dogs any more than all pitbulls will be fighters, or all rescue GSDs with nervous aggression are dangerous, but awareness of the breed characteristics will help the owner 1) choose a (hopefully) suitable breed and 2) channel its traits in a good direction to make a well balanced, happy dog.[/QUOTE]

Will you stop shouting something I already know please? We have assessed dogs coming into rescue from all sorts of backgrounds, from elderly owner dying to being "case" dogs in cruelty prosecutions. We've homed individuals from "fighting" ( please note quote punctuation) breeds to homes with other dogs and children, and assessed dogs from "friendly" ( again note quote punctuation) breeds as not being suitable for children either at all or not under age 10.

For the umpteenth time : certain traits have been selectively bred for to give the wide variety of breeds we have today, doing a wide variety of jobs. Not all dogs within a breed will exhibit all those traits to the same degree, and individual dogs of other breeds may exhibit traits normally associated with a different breed. That said, a basic knowledge of the breed history will give an idea of what to expect. Why else would prospective owners be advised to research a breed before going ahead and bringing it home?


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

BlaiseinHampshire said:


> Go on @Meezey - risk it! (Or pm me please; I want to know now!)


Fair's fair!


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Catharinem said:


> What part of historical accuracy do you not understand? Bull breeds were developed for baiting bulls as a "sport". The clue is in the name!


no, again wrong, *IF* we are going to talk historical accuracy please get it right

bull breeds were bred to bring the bull to bay, gripping the nose ring and bringing the head down to allow the farmer to control the animal, hence why they have massive shoulder and neck muscles

Pit bulls were the same, the precursor *PIT *was added when, like other bull breeds, they were no longer needed on the farm and so were *TRAINED* to be used in the pits to bait bears , badgers, partake in competitions to kill rats, and, yes, unfortunately other dogs
* THATS *were the pit bit comes from, before hand they were just called bull breeds, just like EBD, SBT, EBT and loads of other similar types [also the reason the DDA has the word type in the description btw]

Also historically and proven, dogs used in baiting and/or fighting, were specifically *TRAINED* to not be aggressive towards their handlers, just other animals, as their handlers had to get in to rescue their dog, calm it, tend to its wounds and, whilst recovering/ in pup/ not fighting, live safely with the family, as they were part of the family, the whole _'oh my god cant be homed with children' _is a modern red top driven campaign

As for your few years in rescue, when youve done 30 yrs +, mainly with bull and mollosser breeds, have walked the walk with behaviour, rehabilitation and training of said breeds [and many others from chi to gt danes]
then you may like to come back and talk history, education and experience
Until then maybe youd like to do what many others here do, keep quiet and educate yourself historically and regarding modern day dogs and get the field experience, without throwing how great you are about, cos honey, theres far more on here more educated, resourceful, in touch with rescues and experienced than I
Just cos they dont throw it about, doesnt mean they havent got it :Kiss


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

mrs phas said:


> no, again wrong, *IF* we are going to talk historical accuracy please get it right
> 
> bull breeds were bred to bring the bull to bay, gripping the nose ring and bringing the head down to allow the farmer to control the animal, hence why they have massive shoulder and neck muscles
> 
> ...


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Catharinem said:


> Fair's fair!


Fair is fair what?


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

mrs phas said:


> no, again wrong, *IF* we are going to talk historical accuracy please get it right
> 
> bull breeds were bred to bring the bull to bay, gripping the nose ring and bringing the head down to allow the farmer to control the animal, hence why they have massive shoulder and neck muscles
> 
> ...


Whatever! I'm sure you know best. If you say that in a period where animal cruelty and spectator sports were the norm nobody used a dog bred to grab and hold bulls for entertainment with bulls then that must be correct. And I'm sure farming brought in a much bigger income than gambling. Just as bullfighting in Spain has only taken off since the bulls on the farms have been replaced by AI ( no, not really, before someone thinks this is a serious suggestion).

I've said certain breeds have certain traits more prevalent. It's hardly breaking news worthy of a standing ovation, people have been researching breeds before bringing them home for years. All I've done is point out the discrepancy between people having a go at Inca for not realising her collie might have herding traits, whilst glossing over the fact that certain breeds have traits which in the wrong hands could lead to problems.

Really can't be bothered with this any more, an original post I'm sure we could all appreciate has got blown up with people telling other people what it was they said, and refusing to listen when told they misunderstood. I guess it's more interesting to have an argument than accept someone already has the same opinion. I know "fighting" breeds don't always fight, I know other breeds have it in them. Telling me those same facts in bold doesn't achieve a lot.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Catharinem said:


> Telling me those same facts in bold doesn't achieve a lot.


Neither does you telling everyone about you being a biologist a farmer with 3 years experience in rescue, but you insist in putting it every time you try to make your point more relevant than others?


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2015)

mrs phas said:


> Pit bulls were the same, the precursor *PIT *was added when, like other bull breeds, they were no longer needed on the farm and so were *TRAINED* to be used in the pits to bait bears , badgers, partake in competitions to kill rats, and, yes, unfortunately other dogs
> * THATS *were the pit bit comes from, before hand they were just called bull breeds


To be ever so slightly nit-picky here... 
The only breed that has PIT in the name is the American Pit Bull Terrier. In the 1800 (I think? Could have been earlier) when England outlawed bull baiting, another bloodsport gained popularity - where a bunch of rats were put in a pit, a terrier was added, and whoever's dog killed the most rats in the least amount of time won. It was easier to clandestinely have these "pit matches" with rats (that were ubiquitous) and small terriers than to try to hide a big old bull and much bigger dogs.
Eventually the rat pits turned in to dog pits. And with it the bull-baiting dogs were crossed with the rat pit terriers to create the Pit Bull Terrier.

When the English came to the Americas, they brought their prized dogs with them. In the colonies these dogs were expected to work on the farm in all sorts of jobs like help with the cattle, hunt, scare off predators, as well as fight on the weekends or holidays. The dog that eventually became the American Pit Bull Terrier was the ultimate all-purpose dog. Great family pet, human friendly, good predator deterrent, all around helper around the farm. The only thing they have always sucked at is human guarding. See below:



mrs phas said:


> Also historically and proven, dogs used in baiting and/or fighting, were specifically *TRAINED* to not be aggressive towards their handlers, just other animals,


Not really trained, this is a trait that has been deliberately selected for over hundreds and hundreds of years. A dog who will not re-direct, even under extreme excitement/arousal/stress. Much of that really is just nature. 
Northern breeds like huskies are IME notorious for re-directed aggression (I had a malamute that was a booger for it), but bull-breeds often are the polar opposite. They're the type of dog who's not going to snap if you accidentally step on him, close the car door on a tail, breaking up a fight...
Historically dog men didn't want to deal with "man biters", as very often it was not the dog's owner who was in the pit with the dog. You needed a dog who would not wheel around and turn on the guy judging the fight. 
Even today, some die-hard pit bull folks consider any bite on a human such the antithesis of proper breed temperament that they will euthanized even over a "justified" bite, like the dog who snapped when surprised/hurt/injured. Any other breed they'll excuse the bite, but a pit bull they won't. 
This is also why pit bulls generally suck as guard dogs. They may bark a big game, but the second you say "hi buddy" they turn in to groveling wiggly messes. OH sees chained pits all the time, often active fighting dogs, and they are some of the sweetest, friendliest dogs he deals with.

That's not to say of course that the anomalies don't exist, they do, and with so many pits around there are also plenty of unstable temperaments around. There are pits out here I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. But the same goes for some labs - another totally overbred breed around here and there are some out there with majorly iffy temperaments that again, I wouldn't deal with if you paid me.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Thank you @ouesi 
I knew id got a couple of things slightly skewed in my post, including using the word trained in the bit about families
as Ive said before, 
a day when one doesnt learn something, is a day wasted


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2015)

mrs phas said:


> Thank you @ouesi
> I knew id got a couple of things slightly skewed in my post, including using the word trained in the bit about families
> as Ive said before,
> a day when one doesnt learn something, is a day wasted


Totally agree 
So as frustrating as it is to say the same thing over and over, it's also worth it to help educate those who are interested.
Plus the history of some breeds and how/why they were developed is really fascinating - well, to me at least 

We all have different needs and wants from our dogs.
I personally absolutely love a typical bull-breed attitude of do anything and do it with OTT enthusiasm and joy. If it means having to deal with a potentially very dog selective dog, oh well, the rewards are worth it by far. 
I totally get how that might not be desirable for some owners, and for them there are more suitable breeds and temperaments. That's the great thing about dogs really, they come in all sorts of diversity


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

mrs phas said:


> Thank you @ouesi
> I knew id got a couple of things slightly skewed in my post, including using the word trained in the bit about families
> as Ive said before,
> a day when one doesnt learn something, is a day wasted


I guess we all use the wrong turn of phrase occasionally don't we? Luckily it doesn't always result in the floodgates opening and people insisting you meant their interpretation and not what you were trying to get across. A simple " I think this is what you meant" is all that's needed, like this:



lostbear said:


> I can see where you're coming from, but "jaw lock" actually implies that there is a mechanism which the dog can deliberately or instinctively engage which will prevent their jaws being opened - this is far from the truth.
> 
> But you are right in that they have powerful masseter muscles and can exert and maintain a great deal of pressure.


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## Jaf (Apr 17, 2014)

It's been very interesting reading this. I am a novice dog owner, Honey is about 11 and I've had her 8 years. She's a lovely mutt.

I am probably an average "man on the street". Woman actually. You might think me stupid.

So I thought Alsation and GSD were different dogs. Similar looking but Alsation being the type that bit me when I was a kid.

Unfortunately the only experience I have of Rottweilers is an in-law who had 4 of them. They were not trained, penned up in 1 room of the house, fat. And very, very scary to me as a kid. Snarly, barky, fierce looking. When I adopted Honey the scary dogs were penned up in a seperate section. That put me off going over there as being a novice I wanted a gentle dog and was guided by the rescue staff. I fully accept that the rescue staff didn't know anything! Though Honey is a smashing girl.

I am still confused though with this breed business. Surely if one breed has been bred over the years to herd sheep then others have been bred for aggression? When/ if I get another dog if I can't assume characteristics based on breed then is it just how the dog looks?


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2015)

Jaf said:


> I am still confused though with this breed business. Surely if one breed has been bred over the years to herd sheep then others have been bred for aggression? When/ if I get another dog if I can't assume characteristics based on breed then is it just how the dog looks?


I'm not sure what you're asking, but I'll try to answer anyway 

Think of genetics sort of like the ingredients in cooking. How those ingredients are mixed in and how they are "cooked" (nurture) will affect the final product. 
So, say I start with flour, sugar, eggs, and butter. Depending on how much of each ingredient I use, how I mix those ingredients together, how long I cook them for, the end product can vary greatly.

Breed traits are a certain combination of ingredients that tend to give you the same sort of "cake" each time. But it still varies. Some cakes have more sugar than others - some collies have a stronger eye than others. If the cake is really sweet I might choose to pair it with a tart fruit to off-set the sweetness, same with dogs, you train and manage in a way that off-sets a particularly strong trait (nurture again). The trait is still there, as the cake is still too sweet, but it now becomes manageable and maybe even desirable depending on the circumstances.

I always say owners should choose a temperament/personality that suits them (regardless of breed), and be realistic about what you can and cannot handle. If you're diabetic, don't get the cake that may end up having way more sugar than you anticipated. Or don't get the greyhound pup if you have a house full of cats. You *may* end up with a greyhound who's cat safe, but if you end up with a more typical one, it's going to be a tough row to hoe to keep those cats safe. IOW, set both dog and owner up for success.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

ouesi said:


> I'm not sure what you're asking, but I'll try to answer anyway
> 
> Think of genetics sort of like the ingredients in cooking. How those ingredients are mixed in and how they are "cooked" (nurture) will affect the final product.
> So, say I start with flour, sugar, eggs, and butter. Depending on how much of each ingredient I use, how I mix those ingredients together, how long I cook them for, the end product can vary greatly.
> ...


I love this explanation.


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## Jaf (Apr 17, 2014)

Gosh genetics is fascinating. Are dog breeds actually as different as people races? I mean 99% the same but some better at running or swimming? Cats are obviously closer looking by size, but can be very different in temperament, small tiger or teddy bear.

But you see you say the breed doesn't matter, go by temperament and what you can handle, and then say don't have a greyhound with cats! But then how do you know how the dog will turn out if you don't trust breed characteristics. So there must be a fair amount to do with genetics.

Part of the reason I chose to adopt a grown dog rather than a puppy was so that I would have a clue as to temperament. She choose me by coming to sit with me rather than hare round the pen. But how would you know a puppy's temperament? I mean beyond brave, quiet, shy. Would these tendencies continue into adulthood? How would you use that to gauge if they would get on with kids or cats?

Honey is very, very keen to hunt rabbits and chickens. She's had a few chickens, and even a turkey. On Christmas Day of all times. So she cannot be walked off lead. But she has learnt the cats are not game. She even knows the house cats apart from the semi ferals, who she barks at. Very clever girl.

I think I'm giving myself brain ache!


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2015)

Jaf said:


> But you see you say the breed doesn't matter, go by temperament and what you can handle, and then say don't have a greyhound with cats! But then how do you know how the dog will turn out if you don't trust breed characteristics. So there must be a fair amount to do with genetics.


I never said breed doesn't matter. I said that within each breed there will be variations of how strongly the breed traits are expressed. If I get a greyhound, I'm going to expect a good bit of prey drive towards things that move fast. It could be that I end up with one where this particular breed trait isn't very strong, but I shouldn't expect that.



Jaf said:


> But how would you know a puppy's temperament? I mean beyond brave, quiet, shy. Would these tendencies continue into adulthood? How would you use that to gauge if they would get on with kids or cats?


Good breeders who know their lines can very much tell early on what kind of raw material they're working with, and they will use that information to place their puppies accordingly. A friend of mine had a litter where one was going to be a service dog. She knew fairly early on which ones were better suited for that than others. And she knew which ones would be terrible candidates. Same as some breeders know early on which of their pups should be going to working homes and which would make better pets.


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## Jaf (Apr 17, 2014)

Ah right thanks. Think I understand. Sorry.

I did see a bit of a TV program about police dogs, they bred carefully but still not all pups passed testing at a really young age. Like 12 weeks.

I shall scuttle back to Cat Chat where it's much simpler. Cat does what it wants!


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Jaf said:


> Ah right thanks. Think I understand. Sorry.
> 
> I did see a bit of a TV program about police dogs, they bred carefully but still not all pups passed testing at a really young age. Like 12 weeks.
> 
> I shall scuttle back to Cat Chat where it's much simpler. Cat does what it wants!


I've got 2 cats...one's a Siamese and one's a moggy - they're very different from each other in personality, some of that will be because Siamese are prone to certain traits , but some of it will just be because they're individuals.

Dogs are the same, an individual within a breed is more likely to show certain character traits associated with that breed, but they are still individuals so how much and which ones and how they display it will be different depending on their personality and experiences.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Jaf said:


> It's been very interesting reading this. I am a novice dog owner, Honey is about 11 and I've had her 8 years. She's a lovely mutt.
> 
> I am probably an average "man on the street". Woman actually. You might think me stupid.
> 
> ...


That's what I meant. Not that GSDs and Alsations are different dogs, but that in many people's heads they are, and Alsations are the nasty ones. Just because the name Alsation was more prevalent at the same time that they were used a lot as guard dogs - not patrolling with a security guard but scaring the Bejeepers out of passers by ( usually held back by a massive chain). I've had so many people come up to me and say "Oh, I love GSDs" and a fair few with the old " I was bitten by an Alsation when I was a child".

I love the breed, so loyal, intelligent and regal. My current boy is now 11 1/2, went downhill at Lent half term, rallied over the summer. I'm dreading having to make "the decision" sometime not too distant, but at the moment he's enjoying the last of the summer sunshine.


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