# Flynn's just been attacked by a ******* STAFF!!!



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

And I am FUMING!!! 

Just finishing our walk and approaching my house when I heard ' come here, come here' Sh!t I thought, an off leader. Couldn't believe it when I saw it was my worst nightmare - a Staff!

It charged straight up to us, I stood still and Flynn had his playful 'Husky ears' on. The frigging thing just launched an attack and went for his neck. I loosened Flynns lead so as he could defend himself and a stand up kinda brawl started in the middle of the road - all the time me saying to it's owner 'quick get his lead on' the owner being a good 20 yards away - as they always bloody well are! The two dogs stopped for a second and stood looking at each other and the Staff attacked again, Flynns throat this time the target, under the chin area.  So it all kicked off again, by this time my son and daughter were out of my house, son effing and blinding at the guy, who eventually managed to get a chain round his dogs neck. He was saying ' I'm sorry but he has a broken lead' my son said oh ***k off, he's always off the ******g lead. I said 'he tried to get Flynn in the summer and I had just managed to get him into the back garden, so you know he's dog aggressive, he should never be off lead - not ever!' I also said Flynn is always on lead as you well know' because we see this guy often when we walk locally. My daughter said 'It's people like you that give these dogs a sh!t reputaion, you should be ashamed!'

He got well and truly slagged off  and his b******d Staff got a lovely gashed lip for it's troubles. Luckily Flynn has a very thick coat in the neck area and not a mark on him, the blood on his neck was from the Staffs injury.

My boy was fantastic, once the Staff was on lead he just stood looking at it, no aggression or nervousness whatsoever, so proud of how he behaved. He defended himself but didn't want to carry on the fight at all. As soon as it was over I took him back out to show him everything was okay and he was just his normal self, no nerves at all.

As for the other dog - this time the aggressive little B took on a Mal, instead of the usual small dog target and got his come uppance, lets hope he learns a lesson from that! 

Flynn had a wander in the garden and is now doing what he always does after a walk - as if nothing had happened. 










For me all the incident has done is reinforce my prejudice , which is a shame!


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## terrierist (Sep 26, 2012)

poor flynn, and poor you.

I actually feel sorry for the staffie too - one day it will suffer due to the feckless attitude of its owner.


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## holly1 (Aug 10, 2010)

There is no such thing as a bad dog, just bad owners.
Glad to see your boy took no sh1t


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## AmberNero (Jun 6, 2010)

Flynn has you working hard for him, that poor Staff has an idiot behind it  Glad Flynn is ok, the fight might make the staff worse rather than better though.

I wonder if the dog is aggressive because it has been encouraged at some stage, or if it's DA anyway and the owner ignoring it makes it worse. 

Not that it matters to Flynn


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## SammyJo (Oct 22, 2012)

Aww, Im glad hes ok! 

Dog owners with no idea what so ever... :blink: They are unfortunately everywhere.

If he attacked your dog maybe he needs reporting? If the Staff had a child in the same way, the child wouldn't stand a chance.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

So sorry. Its always terrifying. 
Glad he's ok, though.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2012)

I'm so glad Flynn is okay, the damn owner of the Staffie needs a good slap!

My two boys were playing in the woods this morning with their best bud a stonking Staffie, wonderful example of the breed who has been brought up right, and is very well mannered.


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## mollymo (Oct 31, 2009)

Im very pleased Flynn is ok 
It must of been very frightening for you.
I would of been petrified if he had approched my lot and my son would have done just as your son did and maybe worse


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

How frightening; at least your boy is unhurt and seems to be OK. Perhaps a chat to the dog warden who may have a word with the other dog's owner about controlling him?



SammyJo said:


> If he attacked your dog maybe he needs reporting? If the Staff had a child in the same way, the child wouldn't stand a chance.


A dog being *dog aggressive* doesn't mean that it will attack children .


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

TBH I can't believe how calm I was. Flynn has shown me that he is friendly if approached by a dog, his stance at first was playful, shame he's had to learn not all dogs are the same as at training. 

As for the Staff, the family have lived here for around ten years and that dog is not badly treated, very well fed and in good condition. He's about eight years old. Just one of those who'll attack rather than play and as he was off lead had the opportunity to do so. I feel nothing for him at all even though his owner should be more responsible I just hate needlessly aggressive dogs!


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

SammyJo said:


> Aww, Im glad hes ok!
> 
> Dog owners with no idea what so ever... :blink: They are unfortunately everywhere.
> 
> ...


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Malmum said:


> My daughter said 'It's people like you that give these dogs a sh!t reputation, you should be ashamed!'


So true, our last dog was a staffie cross, never really liked them that much before (past experience when little), but you know when you have a dog of a certain breed you see them everywhere and get talking to owners and observe stuff more.

Although they are great with people, IME (staffie lovers don't shoot me) they have a tendency to be DA if not handled properly. People don't seem to be able to understand that there loving pet can cause so much damage in situations like this. Most staff owners are ok but you always get some pillocks who haven't a clue. One of our old neighbours had a little staffie cross who was a little b*****d, he used to let it roam around the farmyard , it would come up to our garden fence and the snarling matches that went on then were horrible to watch, god forbid if they could actually get at each other, which happened a couple of times, luckily without injury. Thing is this bloke would have been livid had any harm come to his little buddy Rory was 3 times his size.

So glad Flynn is ok though, sounds like he handled it perfectly and his big fluffy coat saved him from injury.


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## holly1 (Aug 10, 2010)

I have observed...

If both dogs are off lead,the aggression is less,as the dogs arent restricted,and can 'run away'
If one is on lead,and one is off, the aggression appears worse.
Just my personal view.
Its often 'a lead thing' My technical term for it


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## SammyJo (Oct 22, 2012)

Dogless said:


> How frightening; at least your boy is unhurt and seems to be OK. Perhaps a chat to the dog warden who may have a word with the other dog's owner about controlling him?
> 
> A dog being *dog aggressive* doesn't mean that it will attack children .


I certainly wouldn't chance it...


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

SammyJo said:


> I certainly wouldn't chance it...


Up to you of course; but I credit dogs with being able to differentiate between dogs and humans.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

SammyJo said:


> I certainly wouldn't chance it...


Dog aggression and people aggression are a million miles from each other. You do know staffs are nanny dogs don't you? They can still be massively DA but the best dog ever with kids.

Ridiculous statement.

Sorry to hear about the staff malmum, hope Flynns alright now


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

wow, Im really sorry Malmum..I know Staffs are your doggy kryptonite!!
It doesnt take many idiot owners to ruin a dog breeds rep sadly. I think in general Staffs are lovely dogs and very tolerant but a badly brought up one has the potential to do serious damage and the ancestory to know how to fight and kill.
Hopefully Flynn will have forgotten and you will meet a soppy doofus Staff to cheer you up soon!


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## SammyJo (Oct 22, 2012)

pogo said:


> Ridiculous statement.


NOT statement, personal opinion


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Sorry to hear this......sounds like a nightmare! Hope you and Flynn are okay. Cannot understand why anyone with a DA dog would allow it offlead with other dogs around. Glad your kids gave the owner a mouthful.....maybe it will sink in!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

SammyJo said:


> NOT statement, personal opinion


Based on?

If I say that santa lives in my garden that's a personal opinion, but it doesn't mean people should take it seriously if they know better.


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## missP (Jan 11, 2012)

my sister has a staff, doesn't really know her history but when out she is muzzled because if she encounters another dog she literally goes nuts trying to get at it aggressively. 

in the house she is an entirely different dog, so loving, alaways jumping up for a cuddle.

owners sometimes really have a lot to answer for.

glad your boys ok!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Sorry to hear you have had to go through this, glad flynns OK though, which is the main thing. Good on you for keeping calm as well, I had it happen to me a few weeks back with two on lead and 2 loose staffs, and its not easy staying calm.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Based on?
> 
> If I say that santa lives in my garden that's a personal opinion, but it doesn't mean people should take it seriously if they know better.


beat me to it!

Dogs know the difference between dogs and people


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## Paula07 (Aug 23, 2010)

SammyJo said:


> NOT statement, personal opinion


Ridiculous whether it be opinion or statement. 

ETA: Glad Flynn is ok Malmum


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2012)

Hi so sorry to hear about flynns run in with the staff , am so glad he is okay , i have to say if the guy knows his dog is aggressive it should be kept on a lead and muzzled (irresponsible pratt), my kira used to have a problem with one staffie it just had a total dislike to her as it is fine with our lab puppy , and the last time it went for her (before she was PTS) i told him if his dog ever went for her again i would kick the s**t out off him (as you know my girl had HD ) , I had to protect my girl several times from this dog very often me and my fiance jumping in between them but she reacted in the exact same way as flynn and came to her own defense and good for flynn it may think twice next time it sees flynn , Just glad he is okay


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## Angie2011 (Feb 2, 2011)

Soooooo glad he's ok hun! xx


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Glad he's OK, so many irresponsible owners around


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## Catz1 (Sep 19, 2011)

Sorry this happened to you.. hope Flynn and your nerves are ok!

I must be lucky, I've yet to run into an aggressive Staffie. The first one I met was on a lead next to a rough looking teenager who pulled it away while giving Rio a fearful look.. must of thought my girl was going to have a go 

The second was a beautiful little tank who I helped return to his owner when he escaped his garden.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Glad to hear Flynn is okay!

Owners like that make me so f***ing angry! I work my butt off with my Staffie to make sure he's the best dog he can be (he's not quite where I want him to be, but that's more my issue than Terence's  ), and some tw*t who doesn't give 2 sh1ts, ruins it!

Good on you for giving him a piece of your mind, too!


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

Sorry it's happened to Flynn, but good boy for defending yourself and not worrying too much about it afterwards. Clever boy.

Malmum - large cuppa with lots of sugar needed.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

I tend to avoid Staffs by me just because of the d***head owners who cant control their dogs and let them charge over. Which is a shame as I love Staffs but people will continue to give them a crap name. My mums friend has a Staff cute as a button and super friendly. 

I just cant stand people who dont bother to control their dogs fullstop.
Be it a Staff, Lab, Great Dane or Yorkie. Control your dog!!!


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## Muze (Nov 30, 2011)

So sorry you had this experience, glad Flynn's OK.

It is the idiot owner though, in other hands the dog may have been a model citizen


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

Sooo glad Flynn is ok, poor boy! Bloody stupid dog owners p!ss me off, having DA dogs off lead. 



SammyJo said:


> Aww, Im glad hes ok!
> 
> Dog owners with no idea what so ever... :blink: They are unfortunately everywhere.
> 
> If he attacked your dog maybe he needs reporting? If the Staff had a child in the same way, the child wouldn't stand a chance.


My nan had a Staff which lived with another dog but he absolutely hated any other dog BUT he was the perfect dog around children! He was extremely tolerant and never growled at any of my little brothers of sisters when they were tiny and tried to use him as a pillow.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I'm so glad Flynn and you are OK, I've been there myself a Staffie attacked Dillon so I know just how you feel. 

The Staffie that attacked Dillon lives with a nice family not what you would call idiot owners, but still attacked for no reason.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Poor Flynn..glad he is ok.

Some owners are just plain thick!!


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## MeganRose (Apr 13, 2008)

I'm glad both you and Flynn are okay. It saddens me that it's been a Staff, and your dislike for them has greatened.
I've met a lot of Staffs, this past year, and have gone from not bothered about them, to absolutely adoring them. It's a shame when they have sh*t owners who don't care about controlling them! Same with any dog though, I've met a whooole lot more offlead out of control non-staffs!

And the comment about them 'having a child' just because of being DA is ridiculous. My last foster COULD be DA, but absolutely adored children, and turned into the gentlest lump around them! Nothing to do with her DA at all.


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## biggreys (May 12, 2012)

So sorry to hear about flynn, so glad hes ok. owners like this piss me off when i and others work so hard to socialise are staffies.


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## Lola71 (Feb 23, 2011)

sorry to hear about Flynn, hope he is ok x


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

That sounds very traumatic  You wonder don't you how people could be so thoughtless? Do they not even worry that their own dog could be injured or killed? I'm sure a mal could do a lot of damage to a staffy sized dog if it was so inclined. 

To be fair the staffs that I meet on local walks that I know are good as gold, they are the least of my worries compared to some others.


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## JessicaT (Oct 28, 2012)

i am a firm beliver that its not the breed of the dog thats the problem its how you raise them. if you let any breed of dog show signs of aggression either at people or another dog the owner is at fault. my next door neighbour has a staffie and hes lovley, however alot of people near us have them and they treat them like some kind of wepon to scare people. its all down to the owner. if let your dog act like that your to blame not the dog. some staffies are lovely some arnt its down to the person walking them.


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## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

Sounds really scary, like you say it's lucky Flynn has a thick coat. What a star he is for being so calm afterwards too, well done Flynn. Hope you've recovered a little by now, it would have left me shaken up as well as angry!


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

It just seems strange how many Staffies have idiot owners.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Happy Paws said:


> I'm so glad Flynn and you are OK, I've been there myself a Staffie attacked Dillon so I know just how you feel.
> 
> The Staffie that attacked Dillon lives with a nice family not what you would call idiot owners, but still attacked for no reason.


Unfortunately taking notes on here as I do has only reinforced what I believe with many of these dogs, one on here who's owners were lovely and so distraught their dog could do such a thing had it pts. They don't always come from crap homes, though this one should never be off lead!

I've had four Staffs and I know how wonderful they are with people and kids, mine grew up with them and will never enter into a conversation with me and my 'negativity' as they call it and now they have seen a different side. 
I always thought the on lead dog was prone to being the aggressor but wrong again and actually am very pleased with Flynns self control, it's shown me how reasonable he really is and also shown me how he can defend himself without going OTT.

I don't like the unpredictability of Staffies though and all of mine were put on their leads around other dogs just in case - no sweat just not wanting a fight because I know having worked in Staff rescue twenty odd years ago that it sometimes doesn't take much to set them off!

No harm done to Flynn and now I have faced my 'worst nightmare'  perhaps it has shown me that I shouldn't be too worried in the future. Just hope this is a one off! We all think it would have been so much worse for the Staff had it attacked Kali - and Marty likely would have wanted to kill it, lucky he picked on Flynny.


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## archiesmum (Aug 28, 2010)

Thank goodness Flynn is alright I had my heart in my mouth when I saw the title!

What a good boy Flynn was and what a stupid owner the Staffy had. As you know Domino has had a few run in with Staff's but it is not the dogs it is the owners.

Hugs

Val xx


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

JessicaT said:


> i am a firm beliver that its not the breed of the dog thats the problem its how you raise them.* if you let any breed of dog show signs of aggression either at people or another dog the owner is at fault.* my next door neighbour has a staffie and hes lovley, however alot of people near us have them and they treat them like some kind of wepon to scare people. its all down to the owner. if let your dog act like that your to blame not the dog. some staffies are lovely some arnt its down to the person walking them.


I'm sorry but I strongly disagree with the highlighted part. My second dog Charlie was socialised with people and dogs as soon as I got him, he doesnt like all dogs and can get his handbags out and can bark at strangers. Its not always the owners fault, sometimes dogs can become aggressive for a variety of reasons. I manage the situation so he isnt bothering anyone and I try not to let anyone bother him.

I do agree it can be down to the owner sometimes. Bad/BYB (like my Dottie) breeding, not bothering to walk or socialise the dog, creating and encouraging aggression etc etc.

I dont think any genuine, caring dog owners (as I consider myself) "allow" their dogs to be aggressive, but cope with it ,train along side it and manage it.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

JessicaT said:


> i am a firm beliver that its not the breed of the dog thats the problem its how you raise them. if you let any breed of dog show signs of aggression either at people or another dog the owner is at fault.


Sorry, I disagree. Breed DOES have a large influence on how likely a dog is to be DA as an adult. Breed traits exist, you can't deny them. Herding breeds will be more likely to want to herd/ankle nip, terriers will be less trustworthy around small furries, hounds will be more likely to run off and follow their nose, guarding breeds will be more likely to be protective of the home and so on. 
Dogs are not identical across the breed spectrum, they all have certain behaviours that they will tend to show based on what that breed was bred to do.

I know a couple of dogs that were wonderful around other dogs up to about 18 months, and then began getting dodgy around them. No fault of the owner, no trigger. One is an english bull terrier, one is a dobe. Both breeds who have a higher chance of being difficult with other dogs.
DA often begins to show at adolescence; you can have a wonderfully friendly, dog loving puppy who becomes completely different as an adult.

Its unfair to say that everyone who has a dog with DA issues has basically messed up on raising the dog. 
One thing my breeder told me when I got a male dobe was to be aware of DA issues with this breed, and particularly this gender. 
I've socialised Dresden as much as I can, and he is currently fine, but Im still very aware that one day, we might have DA issues, regardless of how hard I work at it. And when/if they ever appear, that'll be the end of his off-lead runs at other dog-populated places.

There is a reason why people who own certain breeds are advised not to own another of the same gender. 
My breed is such a dog: never recommended to have two male dobes in the same house, and even two bitches can end up having issues. I've got a friend on FB who is currently having to go through the agonising decision on whether to re-home one of her girls, because the fights between them are getting worse and more frequent as time goes on.
Its not at all uncommon. Go on any dobe forum and one of the first things you'll see is a warning about keeping two males together. 
No good breeder would sell someone two males, unless it is on a 'crate and rotate' system, which is not easy to do.
This applies to several other breeds, too.

Are you saying all these people who are knowledgeable and experienced with a breed are basically failures as owners because their dog can't live with another of the same gender?

Im not saying ALL individuals of a certain breed will be problematic with other dogs, but its foolish to ignore the traits some breeds have, and think you can 'train out' absolutely anything. Training is certainly reccomended, and I would definitely say socialise, socialise, socialise with any breed of dog. But sometimes, that isn't enough.

There is a reason we don't recommend people let huskies off lead, no matter how well trained they might be. There is a reason we are advised not to let our pet bunnies or rats meet a terrier.

When you say one shouldn't 'let' a dog show signs of aggression, how do you correct that? How do you know why they're doing it when it starts after a long time of being comfortable with other dogs? If you harshly 'correct' a dog for acting out through fear of another dog, you risk making that behaviour far worse. 
I, and Im sure many here, would like to know how you stop a DA dog from being DA? You can make them more _tolerant_ of other dogs with hard work, sure, but any dog that has attacked another dog for no apparent reason, I would not trust to be off lead around others again.

But if you do have tips for training DA completely out of a dog, and having them be 100% trustworthy with others, I'd really love to hear it. I know some friends who would really appreciate knowing what they're doing wrong, so they don't have to re-home a much loved pet that is ripping holes in another...


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## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

Have you called the police in or at least reported it? I`d be having the bloke nicked and then suing for damages! Both you and the dog must have suffered severe shock and trauma!


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

holly1 said:


> I have observed...
> 
> If both dogs are off lead,the aggression is less,as the dogs arent restricted,and can 'run away'
> If one is on lead,and one is off, the aggression appears worse.
> ...


of course it is flight or fight as it always is, but when you have a breed which shouldnt be offlead like Malamutes you are given little choice in you actions during a fight.
I dont know how you stay calm, Im always shaking after a dog fight 

Thank God not all staffs are the same, Ive had ones snarling at the end of their lead to get to Shorty, while last week I met one on the bus who insisted sitting on my knee my whole journey


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Having had a seriously aggressive rescue dog I find it pretty offensive to be blamed for the issues he came to me with. It is most definitely NOT always down to the person walking the dog. And it's not a case of allowing aggression, it's about not being able to do anything but get the hell out of there when the dog has been put in a situation it can't handle and feels it needs to react that way to.

Malsmum, I'm glad Flynn is okay. Just keep a close eye out for puncture wounds. I know Flynn has thick fur to protect him but the ones in Ruperts chest didn't show until the next day for some reason. I'd checked him thoroughly and found nothing but the next day he had several puncture wounds  I know a couple of other people who've had the same experience.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> Having had a seriously aggressive rescue dog *I find it pretty offensive to be blamed for the issues* he came to me with. *It is most definitely NOT always down to the person walking the dog. And it's not a case of allowing aggression*, it's about not being able to do anything but get the hell out of there when the dog has been put in a situation it can't handle and feels it needs to react that way to.
> 
> Malsmum, I'm glad Flynn is okay. Just keep a close eye out for puncture wounds. I know Flynn has thick fur to protect him but the ones in Ruperts chest didn't show until the next day for some reason. I'd checked him thoroughly and found nothing but the next day he had several puncture wounds  I know a couple of other people who've had the same experience.


Totally agree.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Shadowrat said:


> Sorry, I disagree. Breed DOES have a large influence on how likely a dog is to be DA as an adult. Breed traits exist, you can't deny them. Herding breeds will be more likely to want to herd/ankle nip, terriers will be less trustworthy around small furries, hounds will be more likely to run off and follow their nose, guarding breeds will be more likely to be protective of the home and so on.
> Dogs are not identical across the breed spectrum, they all have certain behaviours that they will tend to show based on what that breed was bred to do.
> 
> *I know a couple of dogs that were wonderful around other dogs up to about 18 months, and then began getting dodgy around them. No fault of the owner, no trigger.* One is an english bull terrier, one is a dobe. Both breeds who have a higher chance of being difficult with other dogs.
> ...


First bit is Charlie, down to a T.
Second part I totally agree with.

Its very upsetting when people assume you allow this behaviour and dont care when things couldnt be any more the opposite!


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

I'd also like to add, that as dog owners, we should all be aware that any of our dogs could turn aggressive. No one can say "My dog will NEVER attack" (and if people do say that, then they are just plain stupid). 

Nobody knows what goes through our dog's mind. They could have an off day (just like we do), be in pain, want to be alone, not like the look of some dog (like I don't like the look of some people). Yes, we hope that our well-socialised dogs would opt out of attack, but they are dogs after all!

So far, Terence has never shown an ounce of aggression towards anything, but I am not going to sit here and tell everybody that this will never change. So far, he has been incredibly friendly, but I am very vigilant and monitor his behaviour constantly. I am also aware, that we are at a very critical stage with him and his adolescence. I am confident he is well-socialised and a lovely lad, but he does have sharp teeth.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Very true it is sad to assume- but at the estate where i often walk bruno- there have been problems with aggressive danes, dals, scottish terrier and one mal and at least one staff... some down to inherent personality of the dog, others definitely if not caused then definitely nurtured by idiot owners.

Luckily many of them end up banned from walking there- 

Again it comes down to owner not animal- if your dog is aggressive for whatever reason nature vs nurture or came to you like that it should be on a lead or under control.

My mate walks her cross rescue who is now 15 off lead there- she dislikes pretty much every single dog except for one collie- that includes my dog and we walk with her- she has always been that way and will continue to be to her last days (they've had her from around 1 ish)

Why does she get walked off? because regardless of her dislike she will growl/posture her unease- most dogs get it- she will actively avoid dogs too, but she knows under no circumstances to the this further. she will hand out warnings and avoid, but she would never engage.

Malmum sorry about the tw*t and the dog- only three dogs have actually tried to really, really go for my boy all but one (boxer) when he's been on lead (mine's a staff cross)
a mal
a dal
and a boxer
Shame, i'm sure they are nice dogs in their home but i avoid these 3 ike the plague- recently met the IDIOT with the boxer- he asked if we could let them off together instead of mine being on lead- as he was leashed when we bumped into them again - i pointed out that last time my dog had been having a poo when his came upon him and started attacking him- my OH went to get the dog off him shouting at the owner to get his dog off- all the guy could reply was 'careful, don't let him bite you' ... rage.

So not wanting to appear a bad sort and listening to his assurances that his dog was not a fighter (i hadn't actually been on the walk the first time) i suggested we both have an on leash walk together- as we walked bruno settled down and sniffed around, the boxer was intent on him the whole time, and occasionally made growls etc. the guy refused to see that his dog was the unstable one in this set up- i walked off. 

Sorry ramble- but it's defo down to owners regardless soy how your dog ended up that way- you can't sugar coat your dog\'s temperament!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Pupcakes said:


> Its very upsetting when people assume you allow this behaviour and dont care when things couldnt be any more the opposite!


Lol, I doubt any of us have actually wanted a dog with aggression issues and I know I did everything I could to try to turn Rupert around.

And 100% agree with Terencesmum. Any dog has the potential to become aggressive. Or just to show aggression in a one off situation or under certain circumstances.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Just wanted to say,
I'm glad you and Flynn are ok. If it had to happen I'm so glad family were close.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I know owning a Mal that they have a breed trait to be known dog aggressors, of course not all are and it helps if they have good owners. Take my three, Kali is a mare yet raised in exactly the same way as the boys, so nature sometimes can outweigh nurture.

We are all aware that herding breeds will sometimes nip at peoples ankles and I have read on here many times it's the herding instinct in them (BC, Rott, GSD) - the same as killing and eating a small mammal by a Mal or a Husky could be put down to their high prey drive. What grinds my gears is that dogs used for ring fighting such as the bull breeds, in older times as bull baiters are not accepted as having a fighting instinct in them. Of course it varies with individual animals but if we can see certain traits in other breeds why the denial that Staffs can have a bad breed trait too?

I'm the first to admit I wouldn't want to see Mals strutted about off lead yet there's always a defence when it comes to Staffs attacking out of the blue, bad owners, bad reeding - or just a breed trait that goes back many many decades and appears in some while not in others.

With Huskys becoming more popular let us see if people are as quick to defend their killing of small dogs as bad ownership or if it will be blamed on prey drive. All dogs may have the potential to fight and be aggressive but not all go in for the kill - this dog charged at us immediately it set eyes on Flynn, before Flynn even saw it - crap dog and owner IMO!


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

Glad you and Flynn are ok, stupid owner  its not hard to keep a lead on a dog, hell I walked Diesel on a short lead and muzzled every day for almost a year. It was a necessity, as he would have reacted the same, if not worse than this dog

I used to be one who said 'it's all in the way they're raised', but after owning Diesel i do think there is definately something in breed aggression. I wasnt an idiot owner, we never let him think it was ok to attack nor gave him reason to, and neither did any of our dogs. Still didnt stop him from being the way he was.

On the positive side though - big well done to both you and Flynny boy for keeping your cool  I think we would have been hearing a different story a few months ago!


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Malmum said:


> I know owning a Mal that they have a breed trait to be known dog aggressors, of course not all are and it helps if they have good owners. Take my three, Kali is a mare yet raised in exactly the same way as the boys, so nature sometimes can outweigh nurture.
> 
> We are all aware that herding breeds will sometimes nip at peoples ankles and I have read on here many times it's the herding instinct in them (BC, Rott, GSD) - the same as killing and eating a small mammal by a Mal or a Husky could be put down to their high prey drive. *What grinds my gears is that dogs used for ring fighting such as the bull breeds, in older times as bull baiters are not accepted as having a fighting instinct in them.* Of course it varies with individual animals but if we can see certain traits in other breeds why the denial that Staffs can have a bad breed trait too?
> 
> ...


The vast majority of those "fighting" dogs have not been bred for fighting for several decades. 
And BULLterriers were initially bred to fight, guess what, BULLS!


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## lily74 (Jan 13, 2012)

I'm glad your beautiful dog is okay

Sometimes it isnt the owners that cause the aggression towards other dogs, if anything if they have been abused by their owners you think they would be more human aggressive and every staffy I have met love people. Sometimes it is in the dogs genes that comes to the surface that makes it uncontrollable for the dog to contain, like prey drive etc not forgetting they were bred for baiting. 

Dexter is part poodle, and I can see traits that I haven't taught him as an owner as his love for water and his desire to retrieve.

It is up to the owners however to muzzle their dogs if they show aggression.

Dexter has been attacked by a staff and it is frightening even though Dexter is huge I still worried about him. Another lady I met had her dog attacked by a staff it shook her small dog like a ragdoll luckily they are okay.

Dont get me wrong I'm not anti staffy I think they are lovely dogs, but because they have been bred in the past for baiting it is a trait that sticks with some of them and not others its got to have some influence surely as why would they ban pitbulls if there wasnt a breed influence in fighting and it was just down to bad ownership.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

GUy in my local paper being sought after his JRT killed a lady's toy yorkie last weekend.

Combo of crap owners/crap breeding

it's been said a lot!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

terencesmum said:


> The vast majority of those "fighting" dogs have not been bred for fighting for several decades.
> And BULLterriers were initially bred to fight, guess what, BULLS!


Not today they're not - along with pits they are sometimes used for fighting and like I said they were BULL baiters in the past, so I know about BULLS!

Mals are not, and never have been used to hunt prey - they are freighting dogs and used to pull cargo BUT they do have a strong prey drive - so strong in fact the breed clubs recommend they are ALWAYS kept on lead. It's in their genetic make up, it doesn't have to be brought out by using them as hunters.

I think the prejudice in favour of the bad behaviour shown by a lot of Staffs is exactly what has created the prejudice against them. If people were to admit they can be problematic around other dogs, like we Mal owners do, there would be more understanding. It's just that blatant denial that brings out anger against the breed. 
I know from reading on here just how viscous a Staff can be when it's determined in an attack and for that reason should always be on a lead in a public area such as a street - but unfortunately so many aren't!

My mind was already made up and now it's just confirmed all the more my reasons for not trusting these dogs around any of mine. Imagine if that had been one of my little dogs - no doubt ripped to pieces like poor Ringo on here and all because owners don't understand their breed!


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Please keep this on topic.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Speaking as a staffie owner I think the issue is, yes alot of staffs may be owned by very lovely people but a complete lack of early socialisation, a complete lack of understanding on the owners part, the mind of a stubborn terrier, mixed with an ignorant owner (you don't need to be an idiot to be ignorant) throw in some very very badly bred dogs and you have the issues we have.

On the other hand you have owners like myself who worked so hard with Lexi who has got a dog who can be touchy with other dogs......now most will say my fault, but my dog suffers so badly with allergies, with blistered feet, face, sore infected ears and a clicky hip, is my dog justified in been grumbly with other dogs? I will say she has NEVER attacked another dog, she just growls and tells them to back off. She does play with other dogs but the dog has to be calm and no in her face so I pick dogs very carefully.

And there are owners like Terencesmum who work trielessly with their staffie and they get a well rounded social happy if slightly mental () dog.

I don't think all staffies are owned by idiot owners but I think a lot of them are owned by ignorant owners and thats where the issue lies.

I know 4 families (mine included) that ended up with staffies and the woman wanted a cute fluffy dog, the man wanted a 'mans dog' and in slots the staffie with no research at all! Like I say ignorance rather than idiots.

Malmum I am sorry for you and Flynn I hope he (and you) are ok.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

Malmum I am so sorry the lovely Flynn got attacked. Poor lad. Sounds like you all handled it well though. I hope the chap with the staff keeps it on-lead from now on (you never know, getting a proper telling off might wake him up to himself!)

Hope Flynn is still puncture wound free in the morning.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

I'm so glad Flynns ok , thank god for such a thick coat !

I have to say i'm wary of staffs with my dogs as my mum did everything possible to make sure hers was socialised and at 18m she proved to be untrustworthy  Now in the house with people she dishes out killer kisses  :laugh:


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Malmum said:


> Not today they're not - along with pits they are sometimes used for fighting and like I said they were BULL baiters in the past, so I know about BULLS!
> 
> Mals are not, and never have been used to hunt prey - they are freighting dogs and used to pull cargo BUT they do have a strong prey drive - so strong in fact the breed clubs recommend they are ALWAYS kept on lead. It's in their genetic make up, it doesn't have to be brought out by using them as hunters.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I meant to reply earlier and the thread was closed.
I didn't mean to have a pop at you earlier, sorry, if it came across like that. 
All I wanted to say is that the vast majority of breeders and owners have no desire to breed for fighting (and ergo, dog agressiveness). After all, it was outlawed in 1835!!!
With Terence, I am very much aware of what "might" happen with him, not only being a Staffie, but also being an adolescent, entire male. If we come across dogs, we do not know, he goes on the lead. Simples. Terence is not everyone's cup of tea. He is incredibly friendly, so much so, that it is actually a problem, but I don't want to take any chances. 3.5 stone of giddy Staffie isn't for every dog and human and I understand (and respect) that.
Terence is not dog-reactive in any way, shape or form. In fact, our very experienced dog trainer has commented on this and expressed her surprise that he does not react when the class for the DA dogs next door kicks off. I still would never think he will never react. He probably WILL react at some stage. 
The issue with the Mals and the prey drive is different to me (though feel free to correct). As far as I understand, the nordic breeds are the most wolf-like of all the breeds and their prey drive is a relic from their ancestry and hasn't got anything to do with the function they were bred for?


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> Sorry, I meant to reply earlier and the thread was closed.
> I didn't mean to have a pop at you earlier, sorry, if it came across like that.
> All I wanted to say is that the vast majority of breeders and owners have no desire to breed for fighting (and ergo, dog agressiveness). After all, it was outlawed in 1835!!!
> With Terence, I am very much aware of what "might" happen with him, not only being a Staffie, but also being an adolescent, entire male. If we come across dogs, we do not know, he goes on the lead. Simples. Terence is not everyone's cup of tea. He is incredibly friendly, so much so, that it is actually a problem, but I don't want to take any chances. 3.5 stone of giddy Staffie isn't for every dog and human and I understand (and respect) that.
> ...


actually, the prey drive comes from the breeding. Back when they were used for sledding, they were released during the warmer months when no longer needed for transport and left to find food for themselves. They would apparently hunt but come back to the tribe later, then spend the winter working again.

Siberians/malamutes are no more wolf than any other breed. In fact as far as im aware a chi is more genetically related to a wolf than a husky/mal


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

sid&kira said:


> actually, the prey drive comes from the breeding. Back when they were used for sledding, they were released during the warmer months when no longer needed for transport and left to find food for themselves. They would apparently hunt but come back to the tribe later, then spend the winter working again.
> 
> Siberians/malamutes are no more wolf than any other breed. In fact as far as im aware a chi is more genetically related to a wolf than a husky/mal


I was talking about exhibited behaviour rather than genetics. I always thought that all breeds were as much related to the wolf genetically as the next. I seem to remember seeing some sort of statistics about that in "In Defense of Dogs", but my mind is fuddled at the moment and I am not that clued up about those breeds, hence my ?  (must go and check before I go to bed)


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

sid&kira said:


> actually, the prey drive comes from the breeding. Back when they were used for sledding, they were released during the warmer months when no longer needed for transport and left to find food for themselves. They would apparently hunt but come back to the tribe later, then spend the winter working again.
> 
> Siberians/malamutes are no more wolf than any other breed. In fact as far as im aware a chi is more genetically related to a wolf than a husky/mal


There was a brilliant article in the national geographic (febs issue i think) but i can't fine the chart online  I'll have to see if my step dad still has it) The article had a huge list but i think this page is right for the first few 
Ancient dog breeds - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> I was talking about exhibited behaviour rather than genetics. I always thought that all breeds were as much related to the wolf genetically as the next. I seem to remember seeing some sort of statistics about that in "In Defense of Dogs", but my mind is fuddled at the moment and I am not that clued up about those breeds, hence my ?  (must go and check before I go to bed)


i suppose they may seem more wolf in term of behaviour, but i think a lot of that comes from the looks - i.e they look wolfy so people are expecting and looking for wolf like behaviours

IME they're no different to any other dog, I've found them easy to train, incredibly friendly, outgoing/sociable etc. If you look at a wolf they are the opposite - incredibly wary of humans, aggressive to animals outside of their pack etc. All of mine happily accept other dogs even into their own home - very unwolf like :lol:

they can be difficult, however this is because they are a high energy working breed. give a collie too little exercise and they exhibit similar unwanted behaviours.

yes they are hunters and unreliable offlead as a result, but allow a breed to hunt for survival for centuries and you cant expect anything less really. much the same as buying a collie and expecting it not to want to herd


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

Pointermum said:


> There was a brilliant article in the national geographic (febs issue i think) but i can't fine the chart online  I'll have to see if my step dad still has it) The article had a huge list but i think this page is right for the first few
> Ancient dog breeds - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


i didnt know a lot of those were ancient breeds! didnt expect to see a shih tzu on there!


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

sid&kira said:


> i suppose they may seem more wolf in term of behaviour, but i think a lot of that comes from the looks - i.e they look wolfy so people are expecting and looking for wolf like behaviours
> 
> IME they're no different to any other dog, I've found them easy to train, incredibly friendly, outgoing/sociable etc. If you look at a wolf they are the opposite - incredibly wary of humans, aggressive to animals outside of their pack etc. All of mine happily accept other dogs even into their own home - very unwolf like :lol:
> 
> ...


There is a really interesting point in "In Defense of Dogs" that suggests that those nordic breeds (awful generic term, sorry) are maybe closer to the original wolves who were happy to be domesticated than the wolves that are around now. Quite an interesting read, really, especially for someone like me who knows very little about Mals etc and domestication.


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## jbw54 (Apr 24, 2012)

my worse nightmare on this mornings walk, Max started to do his low growl at something behind me i turned around and a stafford running loose straight towards us with owners just walking along laughing !!!! i pulled max behind me and stood in front and thought ok i'm going to get bit now ...... but what happened next surprised me, stafford wanted to play!!! sorry but still not comfortable around them


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> There is a really interesting point in "In Defense of Dogs" that suggests that those nordic breeds (awful generic term, sorry) are maybe closer to the original wolves who were happy to be domesticated than the wolves that are around now. Quite an interesting read, really, especially for someone like me who knows very little about Mals etc and domestication.


is that a book? might need to look it up 

I remember a program i watched ages ago where they took a litter of wolf x dogs and a litter of dogs (unsure of breed) and raised them the same, the difference between the 2 was amazing! even though the wolfdogs had 50% domesticated dog blood they were awful, and I think had to be put back into the sanctuary at about 6 months as they were too uncontrollable in the house! cant remember what it was called now though 

really prey drive is the only 'bad' behaviour a sibe or mal shows (except same sex aggression in malamutes, hence why i have sibes!). A lot of people think pulling and destruction are breed traits that you have to live with, given that I have 2 who will walk loose lead and one who will walk to heel, and that destruction is the same as any other breed given the right exercise - i think thats a bit of a cop out for untrained dogs   lol


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## Urbanhowl (Aug 24, 2012)

Hmm, really interesting discussion on the wolf-like behaviour and Mal's/Sibes. I am a trained wolf handler of socialised wolves (e.g wolves that are by no means tame, but have lost their fear of humans to a degree - so more dangerous, really, than a wild wolf). We hand reared them and we can still routinely and regularly go and socialise with them in their enclosures, playing, cuddling etc.

I will say, comparing Zeph (Bichon x Shih Tsu) to Nushka (Malamute) I do notice more similarities between the wolves and her behaviours than I do Zeph's. I can communicate with her in 'wolfy' ways (as we have to with the wolves) and she understands, whereas Zeph looks at me blankly. Interestingly, when the wolves meet dogs such as JRT's, Labs etc they sort of look at them blankly or with with a prey interest, whereas when they meet Mal and Huskies types there is clearly a higher level of interest/communication in each other. Nushka will also communicate with them, whereas Zeph ignores them. We've had a husky pup once escape from the porta-cabin, dash under the secondary fence and run up to the main fence (so only chain link between the wolf and pup) and came face to face with the grumpiest wolf we have, Kodiak, and the pup immediately submitted, weed itself, and Kodiak was just licking its head. Not sure all dog breeds would have got away with this unharmed as there is clearly more communication between them. I love watching them interact, it's fascinating.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Have checked Flynn all around his neck and no injury. 

I really feel for all you guys with Staffies/ crosses who I know are good owners and in my anger am sure I may have offended - I don't include you in my rants. 
It's always been a fear that Flynn would get a 'latch on' to one of his legs and pull a hip out, you know what I'm like with him! 

Just thirty mins earlier I had cancelled Flynn and Kali's insurance and set up new ones with John Lewis. Flynn was no longer covered for his hips anyway so I lost nothing there. However I had said to the girl 'what about if a dog attacks him or he is hit by a car, either affecting his hips, would be still be insured?'
She said most likely because they would be classed as accidents but he won't be covered for 48 hours. 
Walking him I was thinking what if the Staff up the road attacked him now, he'd not be covered then low and behold there he was! Honestly I couldn't believe it, I think it was sheer disbelief that made me so calm, I just thought - WHAT?? Lol!
I mean what's the odds?

Because I kind of resigned myself to the fact there was nothing I could do than see how it panned out I just stood still. I think my calmness must have passed to Flynn because he wasn't phased by it at all and as I stood with him telling the guy how hard I'd worked with him he just stood still as did the Staff. Perhaps they both realised it was just a misunderstanding who knows? All I know is I wasn't shaking, just couldn't believe the timing - I did have a painful head rush though, blood pressure I suppose but it soon passed. 

Suppose it might do me good to see Flynn is not likely to drag me all over the place if a dog has a pop at him, he sorted it for himself and me and was happy as Larry afterwards. Who'd have thought - not me that's for sure! 

ETA - agree entirely with above and Mals being far more communicative with other Mals. Also the pack mentality speaks volumes amongst them. When I took a pup back to rehome at two years old if a siren went off and he howled, Kali, Marty and Flynn would not join in (poor guy) but if any one of these howl the other two always join in. It was as though the other pup was an outsider even though he was family. He joined in with mine though and now has a lil Mal girlfriend who howls with him.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

So sorry this happened but so glad Flynn is OK - sounds like he was a real star!

Owners who allow their dogs off lead are INSANE. I don't care what the breed is, it's wrong and unfair to other dog owners and also passing motorists. There are countless morons in my local area who walk their dogs off lead and I have reported one of them to the dog warden after her dog charged at us.

I think you should speak to the dog warden in your area as another dog might fare worse if attacked by this Staffie


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Malmum

I'm sorry you had a bad experience. I know how you feel. There are so many out of control staffies round here that are DA it's quite frightening. Since Bizkit was attacked last year he's staffie prejudiced. I've met some lovely staffs and staff owners but I must say they are a minority where I live. One of Bizkit's best mates is a staffy but he's iffy with dogs he doesn't know. But so is Bizkit siince he was attacked 

I hope this incident has no effect on Fynn in the long run.



sid&kira said:


> is that a book? might need to look it up
> 
> I remember a program i watched ages ago where they took a litter of wolf x dogs and a litter of dogs (unsure of breed) and raised them the same, the difference between the 2 was amazing! even though the wolfdogs had 50% domesticated dog blood they were awful, and I think had to be put back into the sanctuary at about 6 months as they were too uncontrollable in the house! cant remember what it was called now though lol



In defence of dogs

It's an amazing read  The bit about dogs being descended from a type of human friendly wolf that no longer exist is fascinating. It also explores that the wolves alive today are descended from the least human friendly wolves. It's very interesting reading 

This and Jean Donaldson's the culture clash are my dog bibles


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

metaldog said:


> In defence of dogs
> 
> It's an amazing read  The bit about dogs being descended from a type of human friendly wolf that no longer exist is fascinating. It also explores that the wolves alive today are descended from the least human friendly wolves. It's very interesting reading
> 
> This and Jean Donaldson's the culture clash are my dog bibles


I'll second both those books, really good reads


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## Luz (Jul 28, 2012)

Hi Malmum, I hope you are both ok. I adore Staffies but having had a rescue who was nothing but lovely with anything and everyone and one I raised from 5 weeks with lots of socialisation who turned DA at about 18 months then we thought we had managed to contain it until she suddenly out of the blue attacked another dog when she was 11- I wouldn't automatically blame the owners of DA staffies. *I know you don't!* Sometimes it's 'theluck of the draw!' Anyway Hugs! :001_wub:


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

Glad flynns ok, poor lad . 

But it is not the dogs fault, it may well be well looked after but do you know if it had the proper socilisation needed ??? socilisation is such a major part of bringing up a dog, and the owner is the one who should be taking responsibility not the dog, because at the end of the day it is a dog dosnt know right from wrong unless we teach them.

Stanlie was well socilised from 12 weeks with all sorts of dogs of different breeds and personilties which have made him the well socilised dog he is today he can get on with any dog hes never agressive. 
Hooch wasnt socilised enough as a pup and has too be introduced too a dog correctly, butt sniffing etc, hes not off lead running loose around other dogs for this reason but neither is stan or tara because i dont know what other dogs are like either and wouldnt want too put them in danger. 

There will always be people who will not and rufuse too take the responsibility they should for their dogs regardless of their dogs breed, yes iditos do tend too go towards staffords because they look "hard" thats not the dogs fault that an idiot has picked them thou. 

Please do not tar us all with the same brush and judge a dog on itself and not its breed. I come accross plenty of aggressive dogs not under control of all different breeds and i do not go around taring them all with the same brush.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Malmum said:


> Have checked Flynn all around his neck and no injury.
> 
> I really feel for all you guys with Staffies/ crosses who I know are good owners and *in my anger am sure I may have offended - I don't include you in my rants.*
> It's always been a fear that Flynn would get a 'latch on' to one of his legs and pull a hip out, you know what I'm like with him!
> ...


Ha don't worry, we know you don't  besides i've cursed a fair few other owners in my time- just glad everyone's ok!

To the poster who wrote about their dog attacking at 11? Just a thought but i think loads of older dogs become a bit more nervous/aggressive etc as they age and hearing/sight fails they can feel more vulnerable- if you worked for years with no reaction and then one at 11 that's not necessarily DA- just maybe the confusion that comes with age?Just a thought....


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Sorry you were on the wrong end of a shite owner- so sad. Odd that you feel smug that the staff was hurt by your dog tho :


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

I don't think anyone on this thread has blamed owners of DA dogs in general for being to blame that the dog is DA in the first place, I think the post where this idea sprung from was mis-interpretted (understandabley as it wasn't massively clear). Of course sometimes it is down to poor socialisation but often it's down to one or two bad experiences that owner didn't have control over or the dog just IS that way even with the best of upbringings.

I think what everyone agrees on and what the post that sparked the backlash (for want of a better word, backlash is too strong) was actually trying to say is that owners of DA dogs ARE responsible for ensuring the dog doesn't actually aggress other dogs, i.e. keep it on a lead or away from other dogs, which this owner clearly wasn't doing. It may not be his fault that the dog was agressive in the first place but it's sure as heck his fault that it was allowed to attack another dog in the street.

Personally I think staffies are more prone to being DA for whatever reason. In evolution you often get traits cropping up with no apparent purpose but are kind of like side effects from the selection due to something else. Perhaps breeding bull fighting dogs has accidently selected a level of propensity towards DA as well. It isn't unplausable. Similar things have happened in other breeds. (my spaniel is a nightmare for pulling on the lead as a side effect of his breeding for being a nutter in the undergrowth). And once you have closed the gene pool and defined the breed these thing can stick for many, many generations so it might not be relevant what the purpose of recent breeding has been.

Note "more prone" and "propensity" NOT "all staffies are DA"! I know that isn't the case.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Poor Flynn, hope he is ok today. x


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> Odd that you feel smug that the staff was hurt by your dog tho :


I hope it may have at last taught the owner to keep it on a lead, since this isn't the first time it's tried to have a go at Flynn! Nothing odd in that I don't think! Rather his dog got hurt than mine particularly as mine wasn't doing anything wrong!



emmaviolet said:


> Poor Flynn, hope he is ok today. x


He's fine thanks Emma and perhaps I won't have to fear our local walks now, hopefully a lesson has been learned. This dog attacked an on lead Golden Retriever a couple of years ago too. Not the kind of owner or dog any of us want to share our neighbourhood with i'm afraid!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Aw I'm so glad he is ok, I'm betting he got a little spoiled last night for his troubles, give him an extra big hug from me.

There are two aggressive staffs who live on the corner to where I live, the owners let them in their unsecured front garden and they are forever roaming the streets trying to attack dogs.
One of them went after this huge rottie cross dog who also lives nearby and has gone after alfie on a number of occasions, he is the worst case of DA I have ever seen, he cannot be distracted and I have never seen a face like it. Now he is petrified of other dogs and when alfie walks down the road he cowers and sinks to the floor.
The other one is still awful though and the other night gave me the scare of my life. I don't know how hard it is to put up a fence for them but they have no plan to do so, oh and the dog warden, afraid of the dogs and owners!!!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

It's terrible isn't it Emma. If owners are to blame and that's just part of it IMO then perhaps ALL Staffs should be on lead at all times. It's simply not fair that us responsible dog owners have to have our dogs attacked and just told 'it's irresponsible dog owners who cause the problem' after your dog is injured. There is a breed trait in Mals for DA and I am not ashamed to say that, why it can't be admitted by Staff owners is beyond me. I mean me being 'smug' that Flynn hurt the other dog - FFS my dog has had two hip replacements less than two years ago, is it not acceptable to think I don't want some crappy dog injuring him or his hips? Too damn right I'm smug and if he'd killed the bl**dy thing I'd be even smugger. My boys been to hell and back in some ways and I don't want some crap animal sending him there again by damaging either of those hips.

Honestly I can't understand how some people will defend another dog, if a Mal had attacked a dog on here I'd be fuming it was ever off lead, knowing full well how aggressive they can be towards dog. Fed up with the 'nanny dog' thing too - yes Mals are renowned for being great with people, doesn't mean a thing around other dogs though. 
Can't stand aggressive dogs or blinkered owners, both do their breeds no favours!


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Malmum said:


> It's terrible isn't it Emma. If owners are to blame and that's just part of it IMO then perhaps ALL Staffs should be on lead at all times. It's simply not fair that us responsible dog owners have to have our dogs attacked and just told 'it's irresponsible dog owners who cause the problem' after your dog is injured. There is a breed trait in Mals for DA and I am not ashamed to say that, why it can't be admitted by Staff owners is beyond me. I mean me being 'smug' that Flynn hurt the other dog - FFS my dog has had two hip replacements less than two years ago, is it not acceptable to think I don't want some crappy dog injuring him or his hips? Too damn right I'm smug and if he'd killed the bl**dy thing I'd be even smugger. My boys been to hell and back in some ways and I don't want some crap animal sending him there again by damaging either of those hips.
> 
> Honestly I can't understand how some people will defend another dog, if a Mal had attacked a dog on here I'd be fuming it was ever off lead, knowing full well how aggressive they can be towards dog. Fed up with the 'nanny dog' thing too - yes Mals are renowned for being great with people, doesn't mean a thing around other dogs though.
> Can't stand aggressive dogs or blinkered owners, both do their breeds no favours!


What UTTER garbage- All staff's should be on leads at all times?????- so there are no responsible staff owners out there? No well socialised staff's? No PAT dogs that are staff's and their crosses- What about GSD's Rotties etc (in fact any dog bigger than a Chi) all capable of damage, all of them in the wrong hands dangerous. :

This owner is obviously an IDIOT- but have enough brain cells not to tar all Staffs and their owners with the same brush.
Also if you think it acceptable for your dog to KILL another if it is attacked then i do not think you can class yourself as a responsible owner- what a daft thing to say- and the quickest way of getting yourself and your dog in a whole heap of trouble IMO.

You also do not seem to be able to see this is down to the OWNERS- not the "crap" animal you keep referring to.The owner should have had this dog on a lead- simple- it would have then not happened.

No one thinks what the staff did was acceptable- everyone knows how much you have been through with your dog- but maybe think of situations rationally, instead of emotionally.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Didn't bother to read past the first line, expect it's all denial again. BUT - WHY NOT ON LEAD AT ALL TIMES? Mals are - are we just more responsible or what??


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Malmum said:


> Didn't bother to read past the first line, expect it's all denial again. BUT - WHY NOT ON LEAD AT ALL TIMES? Mals are - are we just more responsible or what??


READ the post- DEED NOT BREED. All dogs on leads at all times?


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## suze23 (Jun 3, 2011)

Hope you ok OP 


to be honest if i see a staff i will turn and walk the other way when im with my dogs.... dont trust them at all over any other breed.

The ones where we are are nasty... ive only ever met 1 who has been very sweet with my older dog and that was my friends....

other than that when walking I will turn round and walk away - dont trust them at all.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Malmum said:


> Didn't bother to read past the first line, expect it's all denial again. BUT - WHY NOT ON LEAD AT ALL TIMES? Mals are - are we just more responsible or what??


Malmum poor show- massivley losing respect- if you can't be bothered reading don't surmise other people's opinion.

Bad chat. Ignorant.


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

We can only go on our own experiences from dogs we have met/know. 

From my experiences on todays walk, yorkshire terriers are DA, had an idiot of an OWNER let hers off down a walk way which lead too a main road :nono: came running up too all three of mine ON LEAD barking aggressively at it, good job mine were on lead and under control, and the women was around 60 very responsible hay!!!.
Jack russels are People aggressive, one was in a workmans van going loopy inside running about barking and growling at people walking past.
Cross breeds are DA had one the other side of the road on its back legs barking growling at mine and it was a bid road inbetween.

Dogs are all individuals, not all people get on just like you can't expect all dogs too get on its not possible. BUT we as owners are the ones who took the dogs into our homes so therefore if your dog is agressive for whatever reason you take steps too avoid your dog hurting another its that simple. 
As i have said on here before if any of my dogs hurt anyone or any dog i would take resposiblitiy if they started it and i didnt stop it or take appropriate precausions too avoid it in the first place.

what is it with this forum and the constant have a go at staffords.


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Malmum said:


> Too damn right I'm smug and if he'd killed the bl**dy thing I'd be even smugger. !


Really?? I can understand in the moment hating any dog that attacked Flynn, but in retrospect you'd feel 'smug' if Flynn had killed the dog?

You said earlier that this dog was 'just one of those needlessly aggressive dogs'. I don't believe there is such a thing as 'needlessly' in the sense that there will always be a reason. You may not know what that reason is, but the staff had one. It could be down to bad breeding (I'd be interested to know how many ethically breed staffs turn dog aggressive randomly), it could be through lack of socialisation and training, it could have been as a result of a one off bad experience that the dog had in its past.

I'm sorry Flynn got attacked and I'm relieved that he is Ok, I can only imagine how scary it must be for you both but I find your pleasure at the dog being hurt difficult to swallow.

The one thing I am sure we all agree on, is that the owner was incredibly irresponsible to have a known dog aggressive dog off lead.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

xshelly_stanliex said:


> We can only go on our own experiences from dogs we have met/know.
> 
> From my experiences on todays walk, yorkshire terriers are DA, had an idiot of an OWNER let hers off down a walk way which lead too a main road :nono: came running up too all three of mine ON LEAD barking aggressively at it, good job mine were on lead and under control, and the women was around 60 very responsible hay!!!.
> Jack russels are People aggressive, one was in a workmans van going loopy inside running about barking and growling at people walking past.
> ...


Honestly this forum is not a have a go place I don't think, there's another thread for this somewhere but it's not. Everyone is a dog lover- just some people have different views: think it's just the way they get expressed!


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

Its something I've thought about a lot with my own dog.
Currently, he is fine to go to the park, be let off lead, and chase after his ball. He is disinterested in other dogs. If he's not comfortable with them there, he moves off. His focus is totally on the ball. The other dog can be jumping at him, barking at him, and his eyes are locked on that damn ball.

And on the occasions they're not, he'll just trot off if the other dog is bothering him. If it still persists and he doesn't want it to, he'll give a bark and try to move away again, or I'll walk him on. 
BUT....he loves his off lead runs. I'd go as far as to say they're vital to his wellbeing. This is a high energy breed and no amount of lead walks seem to appease him like a 30 minute off lead run. 
I can tell when he's not been to the park for a few days as he's a bit more antsy. He just loves to run, its his favourite thing, he'll start crying in excitment when we're halfway to the park.

And he has brill recall.

BUT....one day, we may not be able to do this any more, and I do wonder how I'll deal with it if/when the day comes where he can't have off-lead runs any more. Im hoping he'll be older by then and less manic and will be satisfied with long lead walks instead, but it does worry me a little.

My breeder told me that while a dobe might not be the kind of dog to suddenly take off like a rocket after another dog and attack them out of the blue, they _can_ be the kind of dog who, if harassed by another, won't back down and ignore them and will retaliate if pushed.
And little dogs do seem to love mobbing Dresden, and following us when we try to walk on 

I just have to be vigilant. Especially at his age now. If I see any kind of unfavourable or unusual reaction to another dog now, I'll be on it like a hawk. 
But for now......hes ok.

But it is partly the responsivility of the other dog owner, at least a bit, I think.

For example, the other day, I took Dresden to the park for his run, he was happily playing with his ball, minding his own business, and this yorkie shot out of nowhere like a rocket, and made a bee line for him, barking and making that little excited snarly noise that some little dogs make. 
It didn't want to say hello nicely, it was just totally nutty. 
And Dres is uncomfortable around 'rude' dogs who just bolt up to him and get in his face.
I walked him on, and the little dog just followed, jumping up at his belly, and the owner made no attempt to recall it.
He seemed to think it was funny seeing his tiny dog bully mine.

It finally ran back to him, but within 20 seconds, was back, doing the same thing. This happened about 5 times, no matter where we went it just kept mobbing my dog. 
Then when the owner finally appeared, he had 3 other tiny dogs with him, and they all joined in.
Dres was trying to get away from them, trying to ignore them, but they just kept at it, and whenever I walked on, they'd follow.
NO effort by the owner to move them on or put them on a lead. He just thought the whole thing was funny.

Its this kind of situation that makes me think, if Dres had retaliated after the 3rd or 4th time, even in a minor way, it would be MY dog who would be labelled the bad guy. But damn......is that fair? 
If my dog was the kind to constantly harass other dogs who weren't interested in them and ignore me when I recalled him, I'd be pretty upset, and I'd take action to move them away and get them out of that situation, for their benefit and for the other dog. 
One day, they might do that to a dog with less patience than Dresden.

If this man had had a pack of 4 rotties rather than 4 terriers, Im sure he wouldn't have allowed this to happen.

I think keeping one's dog safe, and protecting others, is a two way street.
My dog will keep himself to himself and not harass anyone else's, but if theirs is constantly getting in his face, pursuing him over and over, and the owner is making no attempt to stop this, I don't think its entirely my dog's fault if something happens. 
I had to say to the guy in the end 'could you please put your dogs on lead so we can get away without being chased?' and he just said 'oh, this dog is fine, he won't hurt yours'.

Well, maybe so, but hurt doesn't just have to by physical. 
If a group of kids ran up to me in the street and kept pushing me and screaming at me and jumping at me, I'd try to ignore it at first too.
But if their parents then made no attempt to stop them, I'd have a breaking point too where I'd had enough. Dogs are no different.

So while no DA dog should be offlead in areas with other dogs, certainly, I also think all dogs have a point where they get annoyed, and its the owner of the dogs doing the harassing who have a responsibility to do something. 
I don't see why my dog, who is perfectly happy minding his own business, should have to put up with being mobbed by small dogs every single time, and why he should be viewed as the bad guy if he told them to sod off.

I don't see why its just me that has to control my dog, while others can let theirs bully him and mob him and just laugh it off.
Im sure this man would have thought it was a bit less funny if he'd had a single yorkie, and I'd had a pack of 4 dobes and was letting them constantly chase, bother, bark at and jump at his dog.

I dunno. Just musings on the whole issue of dogs on leads really.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Good musings Shadowrat


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## suze23 (Jun 3, 2011)

oh and should have added.........


my *on lead* dog got harassed by a very large bullmastiff.... who was offlead.... my dog being aggressive on lead and i have to had well away from the owner (dog came steamng to us) attacked the dog...

why? beacuse i had my puppy with me and she will attack if shes on lead....off lead shes a totall saint.... on lead its a threat.


who was in the wrong? other owner imo.... so yes - the general idiots are the owners not the dogs...just the sheer strength of a staff can do far more damage than say a chihuahua! thats imo what the peoples issues are....



and no...before anyone asks... i didnt appologise to the owner...she didnt make any effort to retrieve her dog, luckily the dog didnt retaliate - i actually felt sorry for it....beautiful dog - stupid owner.


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

I find this whole thread very upsetting. It is such a shame to see such hatred towards a whole breed and not a singular dog.

I was attacked by a basset hound last year who left extensive damage to my leg but never once have i come on here and slandered the whole breed! Effing and blinding about how all aggressive dogs should be on lead.

It is one thing to say you are all dog lovers but IMO if you are a true dog lover then you loves all dogs not just your own.

It is such a shame that a single google search brings up this thread and again puts out more "horror" stories much like the Daily Mail and The Sun do weekly.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Firstly I did not read the whole post because the boiler man just turned up, he's gone now and I can post back.


It is a terrible shame that Staff owners - or some - refuse to accept that there are many many attacks by this breed on other dogs. PAT dogs maybe, so are many other dogs who don't get on with other dogs. There is a hate campaign on fb (pointless and hurtful I agree) but there's a reason that exists, because so many have been intimidated while walking their dogs, some attacked for no reason. The breed is getting a very bad name and if they WERE always on leads in a public place this kind of hatred would not happen. Dogs can't do damage when under the control of a leash, especially a dog weighing what a Staff does. I know from talking to other dog owners that it's not just on here Staffs get a bashing, I also know there are far too many of them about through no fault of their own. There are bye laws round here stipulating 'dogs always on lead in public' laws that are blatantly defied by Satffie owners. I see Rotts, Dobes, GSD's, Sringer's - I see loads of dogs because there is a park just across the road from me but they are all walked there on their leads. Why is it necessary to walk ANY dog in the street off lead?

I never go to the park, I street walk in order that we DON'T see other off lead dogs and I find it infuriating that these owners couldn't give a damn! I personally don't fear any other breed and that's because I don't see them off lead - I literally don't! Even if they were I doubt they would just come and attack one of my dogs out of the blue, without even a sniff to see what they're like. 

The young Bulldog killed recently by a Staff also did nothing wrong, just latched on it's throat and chocked it to death. If Flynn hadn't had his thick fur he could have been hospitalised by now, even dead. So yes, I wouldn't have cared had Flynn killed it because it would have done very many dog owners round here a favour, as his owner is not likely to keep him under control. People like that guy are the kind who make people take the law into their own hands, like the guy who killed the Am Bull recently. The law does nothing to protect us with our dogs and if dogs get attacked, retaliate and a dog is killed who's going to blame it? Not me anyway. 

I have no doubt there are some lovely Staffs out there and agree with deed not breed but in this case breed is speaking volumes and it's doing so daily. Being 'in the wrong hands' does nothing to ally our fears of the breed, all it does is reinforce them unfortunately. My Staffs were all lovely, well behaved dogs and never attacked another but they were never given the opportunity to do so, so I would never really know if they had that potential in them.

There are places where dogs should be on lead regardless of breed and I don't expect to exclude my dogs from green area's and confine them to street walking to get attacked all the same. I actually think it's time the law stepped up and fined people who flout the law but without a dog warden now there is no one to do it. A point I recently made when a Councillor knocked on my door touting for votes - more interested in dog poo on the street than dog attacks!


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## koolchick (Apr 5, 2011)

Malmum said:


> TBH I can't believe how calm I was. Flynn has shown me that he is friendly if approached by a dog, his stance at first was playful, shame he's had to learn not all dogs are the same as at training.
> 
> As for the Staff, the family have lived here for around ten years and that dog is not badly treated, very well fed and in good condition. He's about eight years old. Just one of those who'll attack rather than play and as he was off lead had the opportunity to do so. I feel nothing for him at all even though his owner should be more responsible I just hate needlessly aggressive dogs!


I also don't like aggressive dogs. I can't understand anyone letting any aggressive dog off lead as there is always going to be a dog that will hurt the aggressive one and all dogs will fight if in situation where they need to.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Malmum said:


> Firstly I did not read the whole post because the boiler man just turned up, he's gone now and I can post back.
> 
> It is a terrible shame that Staff *owners* - or some - refuse to accept that there are many many attacks by this breed on other dogs. PAT dogs maybe, so are many other dogs who don't get on with other dogs. There is a hate campaign on fb (pointless and hurtful I agree) but there's a reason that exists, because so many have been intimidated while walking their dogs, some attacked for no reason. The breed is getting a very bad name and if they WERE always on leads in a public place this kind of hatred would not happen. Dogs can't do damage when under the control of a leash, especially a dog weighing what a Staff does. I know from talking to other dog owners that it's not just on here Staffs get a bashing, I also know there are far too many of them about *through no fault of their own*. There are bye laws round here stipulating 'dogs always on lead in public' laws that are blatantly defied by Satffie owners. I see Rotts, Dobes, GSD's, Sringer's - I see loads of dogs because there is a park just across the road from me but they are all walked there on their leads. Why is it necessary to walk ANY dog in the street off lead? (*Dogs choice to be off lead then aye?)*
> 
> ...


See you contradict yourself here Malmum, I think this is what's infuriating. You are demonising a breed based on OWNERS actions, why? Would you be happy if staffs were outlawed and bad OWNERS moved on to huskys and mals, left them off lead to be aggressive and get a bad rep? Would you be blaming the dogs then or would it be irresponsible owners?


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I don't think I mentioned them being *'Outlawed'* at all, just not allowed off lead in public places - as the law here states. Nothing wrong with upholding a law is there? I mean if it were a human committing a mugging you'd want the law upheld there too I'm sure! 

Off to street walk my dogs now, lets hope we don't see any off leaders today!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Malmum said:


> I don't think I mentioned them being *'Outlawed'* at all, just not allowed off lead in public places - as the law here states. Nothing wrong with upholding a law is there? I mean if it were a human committing a mugging you'd want the law upheld there too I'm sure!
> 
> Off to street walk my dogs now, lets hope we don't see any off leaders today!


I was giving you a hypothetical seeing as you seem happy to blame breed rather than owners, and yet in the same breath you do blame the owners. Seems like your emotions are taking over with regard to this and it's making you overly prejudiced.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Couple of things firstly excuse my ignorance but i thought the resaon Mals and Sibes weren't allowed off lead was down to prey drive nd not been able to train a reliable recall not down to dog aggression issues.
As stated Lexi can be grumpy with other dogs, however she will recall away from other dags if i see one coming so why shouldn't i let her off the lead, plus she is worse on lead than off.

Secondly it has been stated that Staffs can do a lot more damage because of their size and weight, Lexi is breed standard she is 15" to the shoulder and weights 15kg, she is smaller and weighs less than Nala who is a 5 month old lab. Staffies are not supposed to be big dogs, amd if you strip them back to the breed standard and not these huge things people are starting to breed you sort of loose the size arguement. 

I dont think I am an owner in denial over the type of dog i have, I hold my hands up and sy she is grumpy but I have taken appropriate actions to ensure my dog never ever causes issue so i don't understand why me and my dog should be penalised for the mistakes of others. I think dogs should be judged on a case by case basis, not blanket bombed.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Thought I'd add this which I posted earlier on the other thread, may be of interest to some.

This is a very good article regarding the myths of inherited dog aggression with regard to well respected information from geneticists and behaviourists:
http://www.pitbullguru.com/InheritedDogAggression.pdf

Regarding the myth that SBT's have incredible jaw power in comparison to other dogs, which is widely believed and has also been mentioned on this thread - it's actually all down to head size. The bigger the head, the bigger the bite force. There is no reason to assume that an SBT can bite any harder than a dog with the same sized head and jaws.
Scientific version here in Jennifer Ellis' 2009 academic study - Cranial dimensions and forces of biting in the domestic dog
Simple Youtube demonstration -
Which dog has the highest bite force in the world? It comes down to the larger domestic dogs. - YouTube


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

It's interesting, and sad at times, to watch how this forum changes depending on the current active membership. I am certain that when I first joined, if a thread like this had started with someone calling the dog that attacked a 'bas*ard' and feeling smug that it got hurt, and then continuing to blame the attack on the dogs breed rather than the fact that the dog was off lead when he/she shouldn't have been, 90% of members would have jumped to the defense of staffies! Yet now we are getting all the old comments about 'locking jaws' and 'you only have to search google to see how many horror stories involves staffies' - as though the media is representative of the true situation!

Staffs are massively over breed by unethical, irresponsible breeders with no thought to temperament. Any breeding done in this manner, regardless of breed, is far more likely to lead to temperament issues and potentially unstable dogs.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

My links regarding that there is no reason to assume that an SBT can bite any harder than a dog with the same sized head and jaws didn't work.

Here they are:

Scientific version here in Jennifer Ellis' 2009 academic study - Cranial dimensions and forces of biting in the domestic dog
Simple Youtube demonstration - 
Which dog has the highest bite force in the world? It comes down to the larger domestic dogs. - YouTube


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Well said Alice!

Sad indeed- if people realised the bigger picture then perhaps it would bedifferent- also as Lexi said

I thought Mals were on lead due to their preydrive/roaming- not aggression??????? Weird one.

I stand as i started- People feck up dogs either from crap breeding or crap ownership- although I do give credit for those who take on already messed up dogs (and they CAN be changed- there's a thread on this at the mo)

It is PEOPLE not breed- and every single one is an individual- nature/nurture balance.


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## dexter12 (Aug 28, 2012)

dunno where all you lot live but staffs arent that popular round my way, i def wouldnt cross over if i saw one! the very few staffs that i have come across have been lovely little hypo but other then that lovely dogs. its unfair to say the whole breed is horrible. i dont like little dogs and know a few agressive yorkies but i wouldnt say i hate the whole breed. maybe yur being over senitive because of what has happened. maybe once you have calmed down u might see the bigger picture, not all staffs are nasty and agressive.
glad you n your dog are ok


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Just for the record, I have nothing against Staffies. I don't think they're evil, all need to be kept on leash, should be banned or anything like that. I've had a lot of bad experiences with them but I think a lot of that was due to living in a rough area surrounded by gang members and drug dealers where every other person had a Staffie type dog and used it for intimidation purposes. I have yet to meet a human aggressive one and to be perfectly honest would rather see a Staffie barrelling towards me on the street than any other breed as long as I don't have a dog with me. They may not all be dog aggressive but given that I've only met one who wasn't I do expect the worst I'm afraid. 

I don't understand why people insist on letting their aggressive dogs off leash when they clearly don't have any control over them. I don't care whether it's a Chihuahua or a Great Dane, if it's going to run over and attack other dogs keep it on a bloody leash! And ALL dogs should be on leash on the street and other on leash areas. I don't care how well behaved or friendly they are.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

I still find it incredibly frightening that someone who owns very big string dogs thinks it acceptable to have the mind set that it would be ok in certain circumstances fir that dog to kill another- surely that is just as bad as the da offlead staff? Also while we are at it mal/sibe owners are not all bloody perfect. There is a golf course near me open to road on all sides. You can often find a couple wandering about asking if anyone has seen to wolf dogs- whilst these dogs do as they please charging about scaring people and other dogs - do I think all mals should be judged on thus pair of unruly digs and their idiotic owners? Erm no!


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## dexter12 (Aug 28, 2012)

i admit my rottie is hardly ever on his lead, hes 10 now and has cancer he can hardly walk and walks at a snails pace he dosent even look at other people and def wouldnt pay attention to another dog. he just likes to walk to the field at the back of my house and lay down eating a stick so i dont put a lead on him. he has his collar on thats about it.


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## dexter12 (Aug 28, 2012)

Lexiedhb said:


> I still find it incredibly frightening that someone who owns very big string dogs thinks it acceptable to have the mind set that it would be ok in certain circumstances fir that dog to kill another- surely that is just as bad as the da offlead staff? Also while we are at it mal/sibe owners are not all bloody perfect. There is a golf course near me open to road on all sides. You can often find a couple wandering about asking if anyone has seen to wolf dogs- whilst these dogs do as they please charging about scaring people and other dogs - do I think all mals should be judged on thus pair of unruly digs and their idiotic owners? Erm no!


some people just dont like saffs i think thats what it comes down too, they think of them as all being the same. 
agressive dogs with chavy owners who use them to intimidate people whilst dealing their drugs  i dunno why people on here care so much about peoples opinions so a few people dont like staffs. i know loads of people who dont like big dogs. aint the end of the world they can cross over if they dont like my dogs :tongue_smilie:


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

People can only go on what they hear and see. 

I at the local park there is more spingers than anything else, yet of two dog attacks i know off one was a staff/lab cross ripped open the neck of a weim and a staff that killed a bichon frise.

I've talked to the guy with the saff/lab cross a lot , we was no k**b head dog owner 

And with my dogs Shelby has been pinned and sruffed at by a saff but it's ok because it was only playing never mind my dog was terrified  He got told what for !


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

It confuses me when people think that if someone is a nice person they must automatically be a decent dog owner. :blink:


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> I still find it incredibly frightening that someone who owns very big string dogs thinks it acceptable to have the mind set that it would be ok in certain circumstances fir that dog to kill another- surely that is just as bad as the da offlead staff? Also while we are at it mal/sibe owners are not all bloody perfect. There is a golf course near me open to road on all sides. You can often find a couple wandering about asking if anyone has seen to wolf dogs- whilst these dogs do as they please charging about scaring people and other dogs - do I think all mals should be judged on thus pair of unruly digs and their idiotic owners? Erm no!


See quite a few off leash husky types here too (sorry, I really struggle to tell one from the other and going by how many husky or mal mixes I see advertised I'm guessing a lot are mixes) so it's definitely not a case of all husky/mal owners keeping their dogs on leash. And these are areas where deer and sheep are common.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Pointermum said:


> *People can only go on what they hear and see. *
> 
> I at the local park there is more spingers than anything else, yet of two dog attacks i know off one was a staff/lab cross ripped open the neck of a weim and a staff that killed a bichon frise.
> 
> ...


Fair and good point point- but you're hearing all different tales on here too- guess it's also a case of what you believe and what you experience- not having a go!! Just commenting

A wee man down my park said of a rather charming man who owned 2 aggressive dalmnations that he was a fine chap and his dogs were magnificent- these dogs had had everyone- i live in a nice area and believe me too often politeness is mistaken for decent ownership- he changed his tune when they set upon his gorgeous wee cocker- he was out the vets after stitches and is ok now.

Shame such an ordeal for you to learn a lesson- btw, the cocker's owner was forever telling me how he had read abou never trusting dogs like mine and how i shouldnt play tug with a dog like mine (as we walked our dogs off lead together and sat around in the sunshine)


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## Guest (Oct 30, 2012)

The most aggressive dogs I have come across has been 1 dalmation, A lurcher (who loves other dogs but really does not like my lurcher?) , and two St. Bernards.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

terencesmum said:


> It confuses me when people think that if someone is a nice person they must automatically be a decent dog owner. :blink:


If that was aimed at what i said about the staff/lab owner , well we talked about dogs on more than 5-6 occasions he seemed very sensible in his approx with dogs. At the time his dog was always on a flexie lead, i'm not sure if he was when his dog attacked the weim.

How come most staff owners must be idiots or not decent dog owners because their dogs are aggressive , yet the completely clueless person with x,y,z breed that is happy to play with all dogs , they must be decent owners as their dogs are friendly ....................... i can't be anything to do with the breed


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Pointermum said:


> If that was aimed at what i said about the staff/lab owner , well we talked about dogs on more than 5-6 occasions he seemed very sensible in his approx with dogs. At the time his dog was always on a flexie lead, i'm not sure if he was when his dog attacked the weim.
> 
> How come most staff owners must be idiots or not decent dog owners because their dogs are aggressive , yet the completely clueless person with x,y,z breed that is happy to play with all dogs , they must be decent owners as their dogs are friendly ....................... i can't be anything to do with the breed


I'm not sure I follow this. 
I was merely commenting on how many people have said that somebody's dog attacked even though the people were "so nice" etc. In my book, being nice does not mean the people have a clue what they are doing when it comes to dogs.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

terencesmum said:


> I'm not sure I follow this.
> I was merely commenting on how many people have said that somebody's dog attacked even though the people were "so nice" etc. In my book, being nice does not mean the people have a clue what they are doing when it comes to dogs.


Arh i thought it was to my comment just above it


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Pointermum said:


> Arh i thought it was to my comment just above it


Chuckle, I'm glad it's not just me who gets confused.


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## feathered bird lover (May 23, 2011)

was bitten by a very well behaved staffie yesterday!!!!!!!!!!!

owner was a fool, got panicky and started to shout, " oh no, dog's gotten off it's lead." owner was getting more nervous and was upsetting all around. owner shouted to me as i was coming across the road that the dog was ever so friendly and would never bite but she couldn't get it back on lead. so silly me just kept walking in the direction of home and wee staffie, it was lovely, healthy, shiny coat, very well looked after, came up and sniffed my dog. with dog being a bitch he didn't mind. we walked along a bit with wee staffie and her lead was trailing behind her. a few times she came up to me and nuzzled into my leg, sooooooooooooo, silly me bent down to take a hold of her lead, mind owner stated it would never bite, and there you go, snap right on my middle finger, yeeeouch. owner finally came and took hold of her and then stated," oh no, she wouldn't have bitten you, it was probably the faulty catch on her lead as it is rather sharpe at the part that closes onto collar". 

my finger has a huge gash at 1 side and a tooth mark at other, blood was pouring profusely i can tell you. i sucked the finger and spat out the blood as i still had a wee bit to go before getting home. i didn't want to leave the wound dirty hence doing what i did. so no it wasn't the faulty lead at all. stitches and tetanus jag later, i will never trust another owner no matter what there dog breed is, but it won't put me off dogs i can tell you. it was probably owners fault that the dog is like that and not all dogs fault. i on the other hand shouldn't have even botherd to try to get a wee hold of lead, but was worried as we were coming onto a busy raod and didn't want the wee staffie ran over.

lesson learned by all. 

oh aye, meant to say the finger is still very sore indeed, so all be very wary.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> *Also while we are at it mal/sibe owners are not all bloody perfect.* There is a golf course near me open to road on all sides. You can often find a couple wandering about asking if anyone has seen to wolf dogs- whilst these dogs do as they please charging about scaring people and other dogs - do I think all mals should be judged on thus pair of unruly digs and their idiotic owners? Erm no!


No and neither are all Mals or Sibes, the difference is I can admit that! Not every Mal/Sibe will be kept on lead as they should be but you'll NEVER see one off lead in a street - if you do please take pics because that has got to be a 'one off'! If Staffie owners only let them off in fields/parks there would be very few reports of attacks on here, they are either on the street or just escaped out of the front door - goodness knows how that happens, with six that has never happened here! Either way a dog somewhere usually pays the price.

I think the mention of some of the owners being decent was in reference to the 'Idiotic owners' syndrome that Staffs are always labelled as having to excuse their unpredictable behaviour. So now we know that they not only have 'idiotic' owners who let them run riot, they also have 'decent' owners who let them do the same!' Hmm....maybe it's not the owners at all then!!

I may have strong powerful dogs but they have NEVER been off lead, running up to dogs willy nilly and if they are attacked what do you expect them to do? Lie down and be mauled? For goodness sake get real, no animal with the capability of defending itself will just lie down and take a beating - except those poor little mites that don't stand a chance - you know the 'usual' targets! Just as this could so easily have been one of my little dogs and all the 'I'm so sorry for your loss' posts in the world wouldn't have made me feel any less resentful of the dog that did it - just as it didn't with the last small dog I had killed by a Staff/Lab cross!

If the day comes when Mals are constantly threatening other dogs and owners are fearful to be in their vicinity when dog walking I for one will not be defending them. Just because I have the breed it would still infuriate me that they would be in a position to be able to attack.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Malmum said:


> No and neither are all Mals or Sibes, the difference is I can admit that! Not every Mal/Sibe will be kept on lead as they should be but you'll NEVER see one off lead in a street - if you do please take pics because that has got to be a 'one off'! If Staffie owners only let them off in fields/parks there would be very few reports of attacks on here, they are either on the street or just escaped out of the front door - goodness knows how that happens, with six that has never happened here! Either way a dog somewhere usually pays the price.
> 
> I think the mention of some of the owners being decent was in reference to the 'Idiotic owners' syndrome that Staffs are always labelled as having to excuse their unpredictable behaviour. So now we know that they not only have 'idiotic' owners who let them run riot, they also have 'decent' owners who let them do the same!' Hmm....maybe it's not the owners at all then!!
> 
> ...


Seen 2 sibes off lead NEXT TO THE ROAD in just the past week thanks. Won't be taking pictures as I'm too busy driving.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Malmum said:


> No and neither are all Mals or Sibes, the difference is I can admit that! Not every Mal/Sibe will be kept on lead as they should be but you'll NEVER see one off lead in a street - if you do please take pics because that has got to be a 'one off'! If Staffie owners only let them off in fields/parks there would be very few reports of attacks on here, they are either on the street or just escaped out of the front door - goodness knows how that happens, with six that has never happened here! Either way a dog somewhere usually pays the price.
> 
> I think the mention of some of the owners being decent was in reference to the 'Idiotic owners' syndrome that Staffs are always labelled as having to excuse their unpredictable behaviour. So now we know that they not only have 'idiotic' owners who let them run riot, they also have 'decent' owners who let them do the same!' Hmm....maybe it's not the owners at all then!!
> 
> ...


....and that attack would be caused by whom exactly, the dog itself or the owner? I don't think you're quite getting it...


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Malmum said:


> No and neither are all Mals or Sibes, the difference is I can admit that! Not every Mal/Sibe will be kept on lead as they should be but you'll NEVER see one off lead in a street - if you do please take pics because that has got to be a 'one off'! If Staffie owners only let them off in fields/parks there would be very few reports of attacks on here, they are either on the street or just escaped out of the front door - goodness knows how that happens, with six that has never happened here! Either way a dog somewhere usually pays the price.
> 
> I think the mention of some of the owners being decent was in reference to the 'Idiotic owners' syndrome that Staffs are always labelled as having to excuse their unpredictable behaviour. So now we know that they not only have 'idiotic' owners who let them run riot, they also have 'decent' owners who let them do the same!' Hmm....maybe it's not the owners at all then!!
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, I am not sure what you want people to say really? Do you want everybody to chime in with you and go: "Awful Staffies, they really are horrendous?" 
There have been plenty of people who have posted in the last couple of days who have been and are responsible owners of Staffordshire Bullterriers (I'm going to include myself here). The dogs go onlead around unknown dogs, are trained, socialised, well-looked after and haven't had any incidents between them. Plenty of people have even said that there might be a propensity towards DA. What else do you want? 
Yes, it's awful that Flynn got attacked, and I feel sorry that you had to endure that, but I'm sure as hell not going to feel bad about my own dog, just because he's the same breed.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Malmum said:


> No and neither are all Mals or Sibes, the difference is I can admit that! Not every Mal/Sibe will be kept on lead as they should be but you'll NEVER see one off lead in a street - if you do please take pics because that has got to be a 'one off'! If Staffie owners only let them off in fields/parks there would be very few reports of attacks on here, they are either on the street or just escaped out of the front door - goodness knows how that happens, with six that has never happened here! Either way a dog somewhere usually pays the price.
> 
> I think the mention of some of the owners being decent was in reference to the 'Idiotic owners' syndrome that Staffs are always labelled as having to excuse their unpredictable behaviour. So now we know that they not only have 'idiotic' owners who let them run riot, they also have 'decent' owners who let them do the same!' Hmm....maybe it's not the owners at all then!!
> 
> ...


eh? What do you think I am not admitting ? That staffs could attack other dogs? Of course they could? Same as any other dog exactly the same any dog in the world is capable of biting/ attacking. I have a staff x who is rarely off lead 
because he is Ott and could cause a fight if he bowled up to the wrong dog- so I make sure he doesn't.
If a dig bowled up to him would I stand back and "allow my dog to defend itself" no- U would be trying to get my dog out if that situation asap. Oh those mal types I was on about earlier? Swerved to avoid one on the high street the other day as yes they are walked on pavements lead less. Not the only ones I have seen either. Hate the dog and its owner that attacked yours not the whole breed. Its like saying " i hate all humans because one mugged me and beat me up once" which is obviously daft!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Malmum said:


> No and neither are all Mals or Sibes, the difference is I can admit that! Not every Mal/Sibe will be kept on lead as they should be but you'll NEVER see one off lead in a street - if you do please take pics because that has got to be a 'one off'!


What makes you think you'll never see a mal or sibe off leash on the street? They can have stupid owners too. There's one lives near me that's walked by a child who can't control it, it's on a leash but it might as well not be. A friends dog was attacked the other day by a Malamute, off leash on the street.

I've seen all sorts of breeds and mixes off leash on the street, I don't think you can realistically say that this breed or that breed will never be seen off leash in the street.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Whilst I didn't actually say I *hate* the breed (a very strong word which I rarely use in fact) - please show where I did - again! I said I don't *trust* them near my dogs - entirely different. I don't want to take the chance of them not being friendly and attacking mine. I know what some members opinions are of them, I've had pm's in the past because people are too afraid to criticise through fear of getting slated themselves, to share on the forum. I don't label all of them as aggressive, knowing there are some on here who are well socialised - as there are Husky and Mal owners too who are responsible with their dogs, unpredictable yes! Trouble is there are many more owners who don't go on dog forums and don't know the potential of the dogs they own, Mals included but I have yet to read of a Mal killing a Staff, although I have a Mal who was killed by a Staff on my computer, a forum members dog and I'm just so glad it wasn't one of mine!

If anything has come out of the attack on Flynn it has been showing two of my four kids that they can attack out of the blue for no reason - something that before yesterday they didn't think was possible. The were both in my front room and heard the guy calling it to 'come here, come here' which it totally ignored. They knew I was out with Flynn so looked out of the window, so they saw the very moment it set on Flynn. At least they are not as blinkered as they were and now know that not everyone who has posted of attacks on here had done anything to provoke it.

If we start to live in fear of Mal attacks maybe you'll understand how horrible it is to feel intimidated by dogs when all you want to do is walk your dog in peace!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> What makes you think you'll never see a mal or sibe off leash on the street? They can have stupid owners too. There's one lives near me that's walked by a child who can't control it, it's on a leash but it might as well not be. A friends dog was attacked the other day by a Malamute, off leash on the street.
> 
> I've seen all sorts of breeds and mixes off leash on the street, I don't think you can realistically say that this breed or that breed will never be seen off leash in the street.


Don't exactly know what laws you have out there and can't comment on where you live I'm afraid but I have never seen a Mal or Sibe off lead here but had conversations with many who have moaned about off lead Staffies!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Malmum said:


> Whilst I didn't actually say I *hate* the breed (a very strong word which I rarely use in fact) - please show where I did - again! I said I don't *trust* them near my dogs - entirely different. I don't want to take the chance of them not being friendly and attacking mine. I know what some members opinions are of them, I've had pm's in the past because people are too afraid to criticise through fear of getting slated themselves, to share on the forum. I don't label all of them as aggressive, knowing there are some on here who are well socialised - as there are Husky and Mal owners too who are responsible with their dogs, unpredictable yes! Trouble is there are many more owners who don't go on dog forums and don't know the potential of the dogs they own, Mals included but I have yet to read of a Mal killing a Staff, although I have a Mal who was killed by a Staff on my computer, a forum members dog and I'm just so glad it wasn't one of mine!
> 
> If anything has come out of the attack on Flynn it has been showing two of my four kids that they can attack out of the blue for no reason - something that before yesterday they didn't think was possible. The were both in my front room and heard the guy calling it to 'come here, come here' which it totally ignored. They knew I was out with Flynn so looked out of the window, so they saw the very moment it set on Flynn. At least they are not as blinkered as they were and now know that not everyone who has posted of attacks on here had done anything to provoke it.
> 
> If we start to live in fear of Mal attacks maybe you'll understand how horrible it is to feel intimidated by dogs when all you want to do is walk your dog in peace!


UK Labradoodle Association • View topic - Malamute attacks getting ridiculous!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Phoolf said:


> UK Labradoodle Association • View topic - Malamute attacks getting ridiculous!


There you go then - perhaps us Mal owners had better start defending their actions eh? Must have crap lives and crap owners I reckon! Nothing to do with the DA in their genetic make up!

ETA - That last post re the Staffy wasn't good either was it? Attacking a child and PTS!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Malmum said:


> There you go then - perhaps us Mal owners had better start defending their actions eh? Must have crap lives and crap owners I reckon! Nothing to do with the DA in their genetic make up!


Yeah, them ******* b****** mals eh?

Am I being prejudiced enough?


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Malmum said:


> Whilst I didn't actually say I *hate* the breed (a very strong word which I rarely use in fact) - please show where I did - again! I said I don't *trust* them near my dogs - entirely different. I don't want to take the chance of them not being friendly and attacking mine. I know what some members opinions are of them, I've had pm's in the past because people are too afraid to criticise through fear of getting slated themselves, to share on the forum. I don't label all of them as aggressive, knowing there are some on here who are well socialised - as there are Husky and Mal owners too who are responsible with their dogs, unpredictable yes! Trouble is there are many more owners who don't go on dog forums and don't know the potential of the dogs they own, Mals included but I have yet to read of a Mal killing a Staff, although I have a Mal who was killed by a Staff on my computer, a forum members dog and I'm just so glad it wasn't one of mine!
> 
> If anything has come out of the attack on Flynn it has been showing two of my four kids that they can attack out of the blue for no reason - something that before yesterday they didn't think was possible. The were both in my front room and heard the guy calling it to 'come here, come here' which it totally ignored. They knew I was out with Flynn so looked out of the window, so they saw the very moment it set on Flynn. At least they are not as blinkered as they were and now know that not everyone who has posted of attacks on here had done anything to provoke it.
> 
> *If we start to live in fear of Mal attacks maybe you'll understand how horrible it is to feel intimidated by dogs when all you want to do is walk your dog in peace!*


Whilst you never said you hate them, it has become very obvious that you don't like them. 

And the bolded bit just makes me go :nonod:


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Malmum said:


> ETA - That last post re the Staffy wasn't good either was it? Attacking a child and PTS!


No, not nice when any dog of any breed attacks a child is it?

Crazed Alaskan malamute dog chews on girl's face | The Sun |News

May 6	Husky,
Alaskan Malamute
Samantha Black	2 years	Killed by her family's two dogs in her back yard[38]

May 7	Alaskan Malamute	Kate-Lynn Logel	7 years	Killed by her family's new dog in her back yard[39]

December 12	Alaskan Malamute	Theresa Ellerman	49 years	Killed at her friend's home by her friend's dog[175]

July 13	Siberian Husky	Alexis McDermott	6 days	*Killed in her crib* by her family's dog[47]

July 23	Siberian Husky	Trey Paeth	11 months	Killed while visiting family friends when the friends' two dogs got into his playpen[104]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States

Isn't it fun to demonise a breed instead of irresponsible people?


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

This become an extremely sad thread and a crushing example of how even dog owners cannot see solutions- rather tar all with the same brush and be done with it.



NO one here is denying whenyou pick a dog you should be clued up on what you are buying into- excercise/feed/insurance /rough temperament - once you get an INDIVIDUAL- no one is saying there are MORE staffs on average and they need proper socialisation like MANY terriers- so how exactly and what excatly are we not doing that you want us to do here? What ground is there we're not gaining that you- a staffy expert can?

You are entitled to walk away from any breed you want- but you should be able to see the difference between an individual and htrowing a whole breed into the same basket as the dog/owner you talk of. 

I genuinely pity you and i don't even mean that in a confrontational or derogotaryway- i am just glad i don't have that mindset
Sad


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Maybe what Malmum is getting at is because Husky and Mal owners are told that their dogs have a high prey drive, habit of taking off so therefore they should not be allowed offlead you see much less of them offlead because the owners get that their dog has these instincts and will use them?

But that Staff owners are for the majority are blinkered in thinking their breed has these traits dog aggression and that their dog will and can act on them they still continue to let their dogs get away with these behaviors ?? by saying thats its just being a normal dog or its just ill trained when really the breed has this trait to be dog aggressive and steps should be taken.

I dunno its my best guess really I dont recall ever having met a Staff (Ive met one pitbull) nor have I seen a husky loose. 

One trait of a Shih Tzu is being stubborn and Sophie can defiantly put the brakes on when she wants to! I have no problem admitting to someone she is damn stubborn dog in regrades to food and walks.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Also had it not been for the intervention of my friends the mal 'chinook' could easily have been your first statistic in killing a staff


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Malmum said:


> Don't exactly know what laws you have out there and can't comment on where you live I'm afraid but I have never seen a Mal or Sibe off lead here but had conversations with many who have moaned about off lead Staffies!


The attack I mentioned was in the UK, not here. I know a husky owner in the UK who routinely has his Sibe off leash on the streets. I think the laws are stricter out here since you very rarely see a dog off leash on the street and when you do it's usually a dog owned by a Brit. Staffies are restricted, you can own them but you can't import them and I _think_ (may be wrong though) you have to take a test to prove you're a suitable owner. The laws vary from state to state here which can be a bit confusing.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> Maybe what Malmum is getting at is because Husky and Mal owners are *told that their dogs have a high prey drive, habit of taking off *so therefore they should not be allowed offlead you see much less of them offlead because the owners get that their dog has these instincts and will use them?
> 
> But that Staff owners are for the majority are blinkered in thinking their breed has these traits dog aggression and that their dog will and can act on them they still continue to let their dogs get away with these behaviors ?? by saying thats its just being a normal dog or its just ill trained when really the breed has this trait to be dog aggressive and steps should be taken.
> 
> ...


Hi Puddy cat!  yeah i see where your logic lies- but malmum stated they were on a lead as she was told they were DA (malamutes that is)- i too thought it was because of prey drive/wandering etc. So no she's saying that all staffs can be aggressive and as such should be made to be on lead

I accept staffs are stubborn/strong willed etc and can be confrotational if perceiving a threat- BUT as with all dogs aggression as such is not a breed trait- even illegal dog fighters have to train their dogs to fight and be aggressive- it's not a natural state for an animal to be in- i'm not disagreeing loads of incidents seem to happen with staffs, no way- but there are loads of them around- so obviously there will be more issues? No?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

As for living in fear of attacks, I live in fear of ANY dog attacking mine, not just certain breeds. I'd be just as upset about Spen getting attacked by a chihuahua as I would about him being attacked by a staffie or other "aggressive" breed. Sure, a staffie would likely do a hell of a lot more physical damage than a chihuahua but I'm actually more worried about the psychological harm that can be done.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> The attack I mentioned was in the UK, not here. I know a husky owner in the UK who routinely has his Sibe off leash on the streets. I think the laws are stricter out here since you very rarely see a dog off leash on the street and when you do it's usually a dog owned by a Brit. Staffies are restricted, you can own them but you can't import them and I _think_ (may be wrong though) you have to take a test to prove you're a suitable owner. The laws vary from state to state here which can be a bit confusing.


Just to add, Staffs are technically forbidden and it is VERY difficult to own them in Germany. In many states, you have to have a sort of driving license for dogs over a certain size (25kg I think) and for some breeds, your dog has to have a temperament test if it is to go off-lead.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> As for living in fear of attacks, I live in fear of ANY dog attacking mine, not just certain breeds. I'd be just as upset about Spen getting attacked by a chihuahua as I would about him being attacked by a staffie or other "aggressive" breed. Sure, a staffie would likely do a hell of a lot more physical damage than a chihuahua but I'm actually more worried about the psychological harm that can be done.


Good point - except for the 'aggressive' breed thing- would you class dalmnations as aggressive- cause bet your bottom dollar you wouldn't necessarily but they were 6th on some internet statistic:blink: as being 'deadly' (this did not include banned breeds)

Are boxers classed as aggressive- cause they're so bouncy and OTT i wonder if they'd be planked in here too- just a thought not directed at you Sara1983


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Julesky said:


> Hi Puddy cat!  yeah i see where your logic lies- but malmum stated they were on a lead as she was told they were DA (malamutes that is)- i too thought it was because of prey drive/wandering etc. So no she's saying that all staffs can be aggressive and as such should be made to be on lead
> 
> I accept staffs are stubborn/strong willed etc and can be confrotational if perceiving a threat- BUT as with all dogs aggression as such is not a breed trait- even illegal dog fighters have to train their dogs to fight and be aggressive- it's not a natural state for an animal to be in- i'm not disagreeing loads of incidents seem to happen with staffs, no way- but there are loads of them around- so obviously there will be more issues? No?


No Malmum is not saying they should always be on lead other than in public places AS THE LAW HERE STATES! Had that one been on a lead it would not had been able to attack. Breaking laws whether stealing or dog walking are no different - both should be respected and upheld. I said in a public place and the street is a public place!
Prey drive not only includes the ability to run off, it also includes the ability of small dogs being seen as prey - couple that with the potential da in the breed is why they shouldn't be off lead at all!



terencesmum said:


> Just to add, Staffs are technically forbidden and it is VERY difficult to own them in Germany. In many states, you have to have a sort of driving license for dogs over a certain size (25kg I think) and for some breeds, your dog has to have a temperament test if it is to go off-lead.


Why is that then? I wish that applied to here as well, sound very responsible!

Found this on a Stafford site:

*Staffordshire Bull Terrier information. *

Nicknamed the nanny dog, the Stafford is prized for his patience with and love of children, although it goes without saying that no dog should ever be left alone with young children or expected to double as a baby-sitter. He is not always so friendly toward dogs he doesn't know however, a remnant of his origin as a fighting breed, which required him to be aggressive toward other dogs yet gentle with human handlers.


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Julesky said:


> Hi Puddy cat!  yeah i see where your logic lies- but malmum stated they were on a lead as she was told they were DA (malamutes that is)- i too thought it was because of prey drive/wandering etc. So no she's saying that all staffs can be aggressive and as such should be made to be on lead
> 
> I accept staffs are stubborn/strong willed etc and can be confrotational if perceiving a threat- BUT as with all dogs aggression as such is not a breed trait- even illegal dog fighters have to train their dogs to fight and be aggressive- it's not a natural state for an animal to be in- i'm not disagreeing loads of incidents seem to happen with staffs, no way- but there are loads of them around- so obviously there will be more issues? No?


To be honest I dont blame Malmum for wanting them all leashed etc I would be in her case to Id be scared out of my wits!

I have actually seen in cases where dogs get into a fight like that here anyways people actually deem it to be NORMAL dog behavior! :blink:

Ive heard owners say " Did you see how he took that dog down! " Some peoples minds do boggle me :crazy:

They may not be in a state of aggression all the time but I do think some breeds are prone to becoming dog aggressive easier then others.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Malmum said:


> Why is that then?


 For the same reason, the Malamute is on the breed list in some American states.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

It would be worth pointing out that some German states are currently reviewing their breed lists and the state of Berlin has abandoned their breed lists, and a couple of other states have taken the Staffies OFF their lists. 

But I'm sure it's more fun to descend into hysteria. :


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

malmum- you stated- you kept yours on lead and they never had off lead play or anything like that- so tohers should do the same- because you can and still do now as a mal owner.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Julesky said:


> Good point - except for the 'aggressive' breed thing- would you class dalmnations as aggressive- cause bet your bottom dollar you wouldn't necessarily but they were 6th on some internet statistic:blink: as being 'deadly' (this did not include banned breeds)
> 
> Are boxers classed as aggressive- cause they're so bouncy and OTT i wonder if they'd be planked in here too- just a thought not directed at you Sara1983


That's why the word aggressive was in quotes  I meant ones often perceived as being aggressive, not that they actually are aggressive.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> That's why the word aggressive was in quotes  I meant ones often perceived as being aggressive, not that they actually are aggressive.


 another of my classic pet forum misunderstandings  sorry


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

terencesmum said:


> It would be worth pointing out that some German states are currently reviewing their breed lists and the state of Berlin has abandoned their breed lists, and a couple of other states have taken the Staffies OFF their lists.
> 
> But I'm sure it's more fun to descend into hysteria. :


They're not actually banned here, you can adopt them from shelters, you just can't import them. Didn't mean to cause any sort of hysteria  I had to have Rupert muzzled as he was aggressive but I think we're in one of the most relaxed areas. I know people in other areas who've had to take tests for all sorts of breeds but we don't need to here. It's not just the dogs temperament that's tested either, it's the suitability of the owner.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Julesky said:


> another of my classic pet forum misunderstandings  sorry


Lol, don't worry, I'll forgive you this once


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> Lol, don't worry, I'll forgive you this once


So benevolent


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> They're not actually banned here, you can adopt them from shelters, you just can't import them. Didn't mean to cause any sort of hysteria  I had to have Rupert muzzled as he was aggressive but I think we're in one of the most relaxed areas. I know people in other areas who've had to take tests for all sorts of breeds but we don't need to here. It's not just the dogs temperament that's tested either, it's the suitability of the owner.


They are banned in many of the states.  To say they are not banned is a bit like saying you can own a pitbull in the UK if you slap loads of exemptions on. (Though I will add, by banned, I mean they are on their Dangerous Dog list)
There are very strict breeding restrictions for them, too . I tried bringing Terence in to visit my parents and it wasn't worth the bother. Rather ironically, there is a Pitbull and a Staffie that are being used as rescue dogs by the Austrian Ambulance service despite being on the breed lists. :glare:

ETA: Just looked through a couple of German shelter websites, and not one Staffie. I am not sure if there are ones in shelters where you are? Some that were left by the British troops maybe?


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## Guest (Oct 30, 2012)

Just skimming the thread because franky I'm getting tired of reading the same ol' same ol' emotional drivel not based in anything rational or reasonable.

Couple points:
1. Staffies are most definitely prone to DA. 
So are dobes, rotties, danes, akitas, mals, boxers, bulldogs, dallies, chows, chihuahuas, pretty much all terriers, cattle dogs, GSD and the infinite number of mutts and mixes of breeds prone to DA.

2. If there is a large number of a specific breed, that breed with represent a large number of attacks because of you know, sheer numbers.
Around here you're most likely to be bitten by a lab mix. Not because lab mixes are inherently more dangerous than any other breed but because you're more likely to run in to a lab mix than any other type of dog out there.

3. Over and over BSL has been shown to NOT work. Statistics have yet to show *any *improvement in emergency room visits due to dog injuries after a ban was put in place. I've not looked at any UK stats, but in the US and Canada, BSL does not provide its intended goal of improved safety. Folks might not get bitten by pit bulls in Denver, but they're still getting bitten and showing up at the hospital with dog bites.

4. Staffs do not do inherently any more damage in a fight than any other dog of equal size. They do not have locking jaws, they do not have super dog killing powers. They have a fighting style of grab and hold which depending on how you break it up can be less damaging than a dog who likes to nip and tear. You're also less likely to get re-directed on breaking up a staff than say a Sibe or Mal.

5. Gladness at another dog being hurt or wishing a dog harm has no place on a dog lover's forum - JMO.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Just skimming the thread because franky I'm getting tired of reading the same ol' same ol' emotional drivel not based in anything rational or reasonable.
> 
> Couple points:
> 1. Staffies are most definitely prone to DA.
> ...


Won't let me rep, but ^^^^^!!!!!!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

terencesmum said:


> They are banned in many of the states.  To say they are not banned is a bit like saying you can own a pitbull in the UK if you slap loads of exemptions on. (Though I will add, by banned, I mean they are on their Dangerous Dog list)
> There are very strict breeding restrictions for them, too . I tried bringing Terence in to visit my parents and it wasn't worth the bother. Rather ironically, there is a Pitbull and a Staffie that are being used as rescue dogs by the Austrian Ambulance service despite being on the breed lists. :glare:
> 
> ETA: Just looked through a couple of German shelter websites, and not one Staffie. I am not sure if there are ones in shelters where you are? Some that were left by the British troops maybe?


I meant not banned in this particular area  I know there are different laws for different states. Good luck getting one in to Germany though.

I don't know where the ones in shelters have come from and there weren't many but there were definitely some available when I was looking after losing Rupert. Hannover Tierheim has some staffies, am staffs and pit bulls listed at the moment. Think that's the one I saw them in last time too.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> I meant not banned in this particular area  I know there are different laws for different states. Good luck getting one in to Germany though.
> 
> I don't know where the ones in shelters have come from and there weren't many but there were definitely some available when I was looking after losing Rupert. Hannover Tierheim has some staffies, am staffs and pit bulls listed at the moment. Think that's the one I saw them in last time too.


I've given up getting Terence across. It's not worth it for a couple of weeks. Also, our neighbour has a DA dog, and it's not a chance I want to take.
Interesting that there are some in Hannover. My parents live in Mecklenburg and there are definitely NO Bullies around there. My sister is in Munich and they are also only very far and few between there. Will check out Hannover's website. 

I know there is a German Staffie breeder who has also qualified for Crufts, but I have no idea how he manages to cart his dog around the states etc, as all the breed legislation states your dogs have to be neutered.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Just skimming the thread because franky I'm getting tired of reading the same ol' same ol' emotional drivel not based in anything rational or reasonable.
> 
> Couple points:
> 1. Staffies are most definitely prone to DA.
> ...


and there you have it folks - the voice of reason


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

terencesmum said:


> For the same reason, the Malamute is on the breed list in some American states.


Pit bulls are too, as are Rotts and Dobes but bear with me, I'm a member of an American forum and facebook US group so will find out where Mals are actually banned over there. From what I see on fb there are very popular over there, although I know house insurance won't cover you if you have a Dobe or Rott in many states. Weird!


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

I can't help but feel that we have yet another case of 'nobody say anything against an established member'. If a new member came on here with such an aggressive thread title, swearing about a dog and proudly announcing that they would be smug if the dog had been killed, the forum would not stand for it! I still haven't gotten over those comments and found them extremely offensive and unacceptable.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Malmum said:


> Pit bulls are too, as are Rotts and Dobes but bear with me, I'm a member of an American forum and facebook US group so will find out where Mals are actually banned over there. From what I see on fb there are very popular over there, although *I know house insurance won't cover you if you have a Dobe or Rott in many states.* Weird!


Really? That is just strange?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

terencesmum said:


> I've given up getting Terence across. It's not worth it for a couple of weeks. Also, our neighbour has a DA dog, and it's not a chance I want to take.
> Interesting that there are some in Hannover. My parents live in Mecklenburg and there are definitely NO Bullies around there. My sister is in Munich and they are also only very far and few between there. Will check out Hannover's website.
> 
> I know there is a German Staffie breeder who has also qualified for Crufts, but I have no idea how he manages to cart his dog around the states etc, as all the breed legislation states your dogs have to be neutered.


I only know of one staffie type dog in the area and he lives just behind us. They're really not common but there are definitely some around


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

It seems like most all dogs are banned somewhere over there!

Dog Politics: List Of 75 Banned Or Restricted Breeds - Is Your Dog On The List?

Pugs??? 

Looking at that our BSL seems mild!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Malmum said:


> It seems like most all dogs are banned somewhere over there!
> 
> Dog Politics: List Of 75 Banned Or Restricted Breeds - Is Your Dog On The List?
> 
> Pugs???


That list can include dogs banned state wise or even just in a tiny province the size of a small town so not great. I've yet to find a really good list for banned breeds in the US.


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## Guest (Oct 30, 2012)

terencesmum said:


> Really? That is just strange?


Homeowner's insurance protects you if someone gets injured on your property and decides to sue - we are nothing if not litigious here in the good ol' US of A 

Historically rotts and dobes have been used as protection and when that goes wrong its homeowners insurance that pays for it. Therefore many insurance companies have deemed rotts, dobes (often GSD's as well) as too much of a liability and will not cover you if you have one.

However, the statement that you can't get insurance if you have one of these breeds is not exactly accurate. Some companies simply charge more, others base it on whether or not the dog is neutered... If you show your dog has a CGC or other training, that helps too. 
Now, if your dog DOES attack someone, many companies will drop you.

But no, its not true that you can't get insurance if you own one of these breeds. Its just more complicated than if you own a yorkie.


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## Guest (Oct 30, 2012)

Malmum said:


> It seems like most all dogs are banned somewhere over there!
> 
> Dog Politics: List Of 75 Banned Or Restricted Breeds - Is Your Dog On The List?
> 
> ...


I've addressed this list before. Its a *very* inaccurate representation.

That is a list of dogs who are banned and restricted for ANY reason.
For example, pugs and boston terriers are restricted by most airlines because due to the fact that they are brachicephalic, they don't do well on flights. Airlines got tired of being blamed for killing brachicephalic dogs in flight so they simply quit flying them in the summer or in cargo.

Others are on the list simply because of size. Some appartment building for example don't allow dogs over a certain size - and they added dogs on to that list based on that. Its a worthless list really.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Some won't insure. A bit like some pet insurers won't insure DDB's etc over here!

11 Riskiest Dog Breeds for Homeowners and Renters - Forbes


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Not surprised with any of them


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## Guest (Oct 30, 2012)

Malmum said:


> Some won't insure. A bit like some pet insurers won't insure DDB's etc over here!
> 
> 11 Riskiest Dog Breeds for Homeowners and Renters - Forbes


Yes, I said that 
Some companies won't insure you, but given the bazillion different insurance companies in this country, it is possible to get homeowner's insurance with certain breeds. You just have to shop around.

And given the massive amounts of GSD, dobe and rottie owners, insurance companies are careful not to tick off a whole group of potential customers.


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## dexter12 (Aug 28, 2012)

Malmum said:


> Some won't insure. A bit like some pet insurers won't insure DDB's etc over here!
> 
> 11 Riskiest Dog Breeds for Homeowners and Renters - Forbes


How do u know DDB are hard to insure? My brothers never had a problem


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## Guest (Oct 30, 2012)

SammyJo said:


> If the Staff had a child in the same way, the child wouldn't stand a chance.


Doing a better skim of the thread and wanted to comment on this.

Dog aggression and/or prey drive does not equal human aggression.

When a yorkie kills a mouse do we worry a child might be next?
Whe a greyhound kills a cat do we worry a child might be next?


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

The dog I'm most scared of is a *tiny* Chihuahua X at our local park. I swear, he's about the size of Dex's foot but when I see him racing towards us, I call Dex and we get the hell out of there! The dog is vicious!

The owner used to muzzle him but has stopped now - even though her little Chihuahua X has already bitten a Golden Retriever badly and also gone for several other dogs.

I have made it clear that if he *ever* goes for my dog, I will kick him.

My brother's Lab was mauled terribly by a Staff X and was lucky to survive. Have to say my brother still adores Staffies.

Irrespective of breed, it's down to each and every owner to be realistic about their dog's temperament and to act accordingly.


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

So Malmum, you don't reply to any of my valid points on this thread, but instead give me bad rep according to your comment for unfairly accusing you of swearing. If you have not sworn, what exactly does the '*******' in your title stand for? Oh and you also called the dog a 'bast*rd'. So, yes, swearing.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

dexter12 said:


> How do u know DDB are hard to insure? My brothers never had a problem


Reginald on here had problems insuring his DDB Cooper and he also said some companies won't insure Rotts or Dobes too!


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## Guest (Oct 30, 2012)

Wow! This thread has escalated! Loads of threads seem to be going like this recently!  I understand where everyone is coming from though. Malmum was panicked that her dog was attacked (that`s how the thread title came to me) and people were upset that Malmum was making comments about Staffies. I myself am a huge Staffie lover, they are a breed I want to own in the future and will do so. 
My ex-friend had a Mal. It had to be muzzled because of its prey aggresion it seemed friendly but it jumped up and it was huge so I was actually quite scared of it! That`s as far as my experince with Mals go.
A Min Pin round here killed a cat. I chased the dog away. Did that mean the dog should of gone for a child (me) ? (It was actually a soppy thing with me but could not STAND dogs or other animals)
My friends Chi killed a rat. Did that mean it would kill a child? 
People, prey and dog aggresion are VERY different.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

dexter12 said:


> How do u know DDB are hard to insure? My brothers never had a problem


Never had a problem with mine either.


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## dexter12 (Aug 28, 2012)

Never had a problem to insure our rottie either, these aren't really facts people are saying just people writin stuff to try and prove a point!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

dexter12 said:


> Never had a problem to insure our rottie either, these aren't really facts people are saying just people writin stuff to try and prove a point!


Don't think so. He said John Lewis wouldn't insure DDB's and some have them on a 'Specific breed list' don't see why he'd lie - unless you know better!

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/206452-any-good-dog-insurance-suggestions-2.html


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## dexter12 (Aug 28, 2012)

Malmum said:


> Don't think so. He said John Lewis wouldn't insure DDB's and some have them on a 'Specific breed list' don't see why he'd lie - unless you know better!
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/206452-any-good-dog-insurance-suggestions-2.html


Well 2 of us have said we ain't had a problem! Just because one person has had trouble dont make it a fact!


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

Malmum said:


> Reginald on here had problems insuring his DDB Cooper and he also said some companies won't insure Rotts or Dobes too!


I have to say, I never found an issue insuring my dobe, and I searched through loads of companies. None said they wouldn't insure dobes, all had dobermann on the drop down list.

In america it might be different. But I didn't have an issue here.

Its also worth remembering that dobes, like DDBs, can have a number of serious health issues which might be part of the reason some companies want to avoid them. Wobblers, DCM, von willebrand, and several other problems are commonplace in dobes. Most dobes will be affected by one of them, usually DCM. It is said that there isn't a line of dobes in the world that is free of DCM.
Breeds that are almost guaranteed to suffer from a condition are more likely to be excluded by insurance companies.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

FAO malmum- posted on the breed traits thread about aggression- not wanting to consume this thread with it too but i would be pleased if you could read.

Thanks!


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Blinkin' eck! What a thread!

So my 2 cents on the whole Staffie thing...

I LOVE Staffies and one day hope to rescue an oldie (dont think I could handle a young SBT, so a chilled out oldie who needs a good home suits me fine, plus a calm one for The Terrors but this is YEARS off anyway!)

I avoid Staffies on my walks (yes, one of my favourite breeds with JRs and GSDs) for a couple of reasons. On my estate, every little k**bhead thinking hes well 'ard, has a Staff, offlead running round the estate, no collar or lead. I had one, clearly just had a litter, brilliant JUST what Staffs need (who was later sold to a friend of mine ) charged at me and Dottie, Dottie on lead, the dog was too fast and obviously nervous itself, it then growled and snapped at Dottie and a handbags ensued.

I wanted to give that idiot what for, he called the dog several times but it didnt leave, it eventually left on its own accord. For someone who was walking their dog and doesnt like Staffs as it is, what a cr*p example of the breed this man is showing. My mums friend has a Staff called Zak and oh my god, hes amazing. Ive asked Mary if I can walk with her and Zakky boy to help Charlie with his male dog problems. Hes brilliant and doesnt bat an eyelid. 
If he was with a young male, I would avoid him as the guys by me let them run riot, friendly or not, I dont give a damn, keep your dog away from mine, ESPCIALLY on the pavement and round the estate. It may be "cool" to have no lead or collar on your dog, but its a selfish decision all round!

So many run ins on my estate its un real  People grabbing their Staffs at the last minute to stop them running over to my 2 on lead and thats if I'm lucky! Ive had a Staff stand and block mine and my mums path whilst on a pavement walk with my 2, squaring up, I was bricking it as it just stared my 2 down. http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/180483-absolutely-livid-irresponsible-dog-owners.html If I was a nervous/new/elderly dog walker, this is would be even more terrifying. It ended up with Charlie and said dog getting into a scrap, me picking him up, Dottie going nuts and mum being terrified. I shouted if someone could come get their effing dog. No-one came...

I am sick of these stupid owners who INSIST on damaging the breed even more either through irresponsible ownership, bad breeding etc etc.

I worry when my 2 Terriers meet another Terrier as we know Terriers CAN be fiesty little so and so's. Note the word CAN, not ARE!
My only worry is when they meet a SBT, is, as mentioned before the way they carry themselves, which can be seen as intimidating to other dogs and that in itself can start a fight, plus they obviously have a lot more strength to them than a Yorkshire Terrier (not that I would accept that behaviour from any loose dog) this worries me even more. I have no shame in saying my 2 can be fiesty little so and so's (Dottie through her nervousness and Charlie through his adolescence, not something I find "cute" or "sweet" because they are small, quite the oppisite!) and with them I have to be very cautious who I introduce them to. So all these off lead Staffs and I am sad to say ALL bar one (a GSD "not good with other dogs" owners words, offlead on the estate) are running loose on the estate, causing trouble, literally running free.

It angers me so much as I love this breed but can not deny they are not painted in the best light and being Terriers (as with ANY Terrier, mine included) they may not always start the fight but chances are they dont back down (which we humans bred into them, a JR scared of a fox who fights back isnt much good to a hunter)

So to sum up a rambling post. I can accept Terriers in general CAN be fiesty and chances are wont back down from a fight, thats not to say ALL wont, but in general, thats what man bred them to do. Mix this trait in with an under socialised, out of control dog owned by a total moron and I can definitley see why people "hate" Staffies. Which is a shame as I love the buggers!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Good post Pupcakes, nice to see some kind of understanding at how intimidating the breed can be. 

I will continue to avoid them like the plague as I always have when I've had a dog with me, my biggest fear now having been realised. Such a shame that the first ever strange dog Flynn has met in his four plus years had to attack him, I wonder what he'll do now if another, friendly dog approaches. The dog attacked in seconds, not even a stand off and no time to take avoiding action, not helpful if the Akita recently was an example because these dogs dont stop once they start, he didnt until his owner pulled him away it was Flynn who sustained the fight at all, he is after all assessed as not DA by two behaviourists. All the months of training, socialising close with other dogs and assessments possibly to no avail all because a selfish owner tries to show what a great dog he has - off lead and so well behaved, when the opposite is actually the case when push comes to shove!

Nothing will be done to make these people look after their dogs better, have them on leads, this one didn't even have a collar. The breed will ultimately suffer and it won't be my fault for taking avoiding action but the very people who own them and underestimate the feeling's of the general public as a whole!

Fed up with this thread now, fed up with excuses and fed up with certain posters who have shown their true colours with caring only about a breeds reputation above and beyond all! 

Flynn is fine thank you very much, not something that has been asked but that's caring folk eh?


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## dexter12 (Aug 28, 2012)

Malmum said:


> Good post Pupcakes, nice to see some kind of understanding at how intimidating the breed can be.
> 
> I will continue to avoid them like the plague as I always have when I've had a dog with me, my biggest fear now having been realised. Such a shame that the first ever strange dog Flynn has met in his four plus years had to attack him, I wonder what he'll do now if another, friendly dog approaches. The dog attacked in seconds, not even a stand off and no time to take avoiding action, not helpful if the Akita recently was an example because these dogs dont stop once they start, he didnt until his owner pulled him away it was Flynn who sustained the fight at all, he is after all assessed as not DA by two behaviourists. All the months of training, socialising close with other dogs and assessments possibly to no avail all because a selfish owner tries to show what a great dog he has - off lead and so well behaved, when the opposite is actually the case when push comes to shove!
> 
> ...


loads of people have asked how he is cant believe u even wrote that! read back through i think nearly evveryone who posted either asked how said " hope hes ok" u clearly dont like the breed and now have a reason to not like them. rather then hating this one DA staff u hate them all! that sounds like someone who is a dog lover ay!


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Malmum said:


> Good post Pupcakes, nice to see some kind of understanding at how intimidating the breed can be.
> 
> I will continue to avoid them like the plague as I always have when I've had a dog with me, my biggest fear now having been realised. Such a shame that the first ever strange dog Flynn has met in his four plus years had to attack him, I wonder what he'll do now if another, friendly dog approaches. The dog attacked in seconds, not even a stand off and no time to take avoiding action, not helpful if the Akita recently was an example because these dogs dont stop once they start, he didnt until his owner pulled him away it was Flynn who sustained the fight at all, he is after all assessed as not DA by two behaviourists. All the months of training, socialising close with other dogs and assessments possibly to no avail all because a selfish owner tries to show what a great dog he has - off lead and so well behaved, when the opposite is actually the case when push comes to shove!
> 
> ...


Im really suprised you feel this way Malmum. Il admit I am guilty of not asking if he is ok - But only because from my reading in your OP I was under the impression FLynn was absolutely fine and the other dog was the one hurt 

Quite frankly I made 1 post in the thread - pointing out there is a difference between Dog Aggression and Human Aggression and after people kept that card going and the thread got more heated I couldnt be bothered to post and get involved in such an emotional topic 

I think youl find 100% of this forum are all relieved Flynn is no worse for wear but were probably to shy to engage in such a thread.  There over 5K views and less than 200 replies which speaks a million words to me.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

I don't like any off lead dog in the streets. Parks, beaches, woods, fine (assuming they're not DA, of course!). 
But in my view, _all_ dogs should be on leads around houses, roads, where the public are walking, regardless of breed or temperament.

The breed I do see being walked most often here without a lead, through town, or on my road, is staffs. 
And I wonder if it is because they DO attract a certain type of owner, and that type of owner is the the sort who wouldn't tend to want to bother dealing with any lead training or lead issues, which young dogs commonly have until they're taught otherwise.
God knows Dresden is much better off lead than on, and if I were an irresponsible meat-head, I might just think 'screw it, let him walk off-lead, its so much easier!'
Perhaps this is why staffs generally are seen to be running amok? Again, the owners.

There is a staff on our street that is often running about off lead, I don't think the owners even know where she is most of the time, or care. 
They're your typical chav 'scum', too. 
These dogs don't really stand a chance when they attract such totally inappropriate people as owners. And they're so easy and cheap to obtain.
There are regularly free staffs, or staff pups for less than £100 round here.

Just lump this all together: 'Status breed' that often attracts the worst kind of owner who won't put much time into training or care and is less likely to be responsible, easy to obtain and cheap, common (there'll be someone on every damn road around here who is breeding them), small enough that lots of people find them an easy to manage size if they have a small house, and what are you going to end up with if this goes on so often and for so long?
A problem.
And a problem completely no fault of the dog.

In times gone by, MY breed was the media 'devil dog'. People viewed dobes much as they view staffs today, and some people still do view my dobe this way. Dobes still aren't portrayed in much of a positive light really, are they? Always the villian in movies/tv, always shown as a big snarling guard dog, always portrayed as intimidating, and people still give us a wide berth on the streets, even though it was kinda the 70s when dobe fear was at its peak. 
And its still around.
And you still get people buying these dogs for the wrong reasons, and people churning them out without health tests or responsible breeding in place. 
So even the devil dogs of yesteryear find it very hard to recover, I think.
The difference between a dobe and a staff, I guess, is that dobes are generally more expensive, even the crappily bred ones will got for about 300 or 400 pounds. 
Staffs are given away free, or for double digits, all over the place.

Now, I like staffs. I've met more nice ones than I have mean ones. And the mean ones have always been a direct result of a crap owner. So I in no way feel this breed is inherently objectionable or bad, I firmly believe it is the owner. I, too, hope to rescue a nice happy wiggly staff one day.
BUT....I also understand and appreciate that this is a breed that can have DA issues, just like mine, so yes, Im more likely to go out of my way to avoid a staff, particularly an off-lead one, than I would, say, a pug or cavalier or golden. 
This doesn't mean I hate the breed or think they're evil. Nor does it mean I think the breeds I mentioned CAN'T be DA too.
I just recognise the traits the breed can have, even in great hands, and do what I can to avoid any issues.

I'd also do the same to another male dobe, or an english bull terrier, or any other breed with a tendency to DA. Its not just about staffs; Im going to move my dog away from any breed that I feel is not controlled on a lead and has a tendency to be DA. In fact, any DOG that I don't feel is controlled on a lead, whether it is a DA breed or not. Its not prejudice, its just being sensible and pro-active.
I don't want my dog attacked, and I don't want anyone else's dog hurt either by mine!

But I have known some wonderful staffs, really lovely dogs. And I've known some horrible dogs of breeds that get nothing like as bad a rap as the staffy. The only dog that ever bit me was a westie. And I've dealt with 'junk yard' rotties with little socialisation, cranky bad attitude shar-peis, mastiffs that were eyeing me up from their kennel, not one ever escalated to anything. They were all fine.
But the westie....damn! Wasn't expecting that!

I guess my point is that I, like most, firmly believe it is bad owners that are to blame for the reputation the staff has. 
They're not necessarily to blame for the DA this breed can have, but they _are_ to blame for not taking appropriate measures to deal with this, like keeping their dog on a lead around other dogs! 
Having a DA dog in and of itself doesn't make someone a bad owner in the slightest, and is no indication that they did anything wrong. But having a DA dog that you _don't control_ and don't act responsibly about IS definitely the owner's fault.
Staffs are what they are, and if they are correctly raised and controlled and the owner's aware of the potential DA issues, and ready to step up to the mark to be responsible about them, I see absolutely NO reason why this dog should be viewed as any worse than any other. 
I really don't.
The biggest problem is, as we all know, that these dogs just DON'T get the owners they need and deserve and who would bring out the best in them. 
This isn't their fault, it isn't the breeds fault. 
And it can happen to ANY breed. 
We all know how dogs go in waves of fashion. Now its bull breeds, tomorrow it'll be huskies/mals, then it might be sight-hounds, who knows? 
But people who want dogs as status symbols only are never going to go away. And they ruin breeds as they go. 
I just hope there are enough people around who realise this to save these breeds from complete destruction


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I don't know why people felt the need to ask via pm's - think they may have found the whole thing too intimidating which is a real shame! Needless remarks about posters lying over trivia and the whole thing becoming childish and off topic. I won't be coming back to this thread and have asked for it to be closed. Can't be bothered with childishness or arguing the toss about my views. They have just been reinforced all the more!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Malmum said:


> Flynn is fine thank you very much, not something that has been asked but that's caring folk eh?


I think most people asked how Flynn was or said they hoped he was okay


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Malmum said:


> Good post Pupcakes, nice to see some kind of understanding at how intimidating the breed can be.
> 
> I will continue to avoid them like the plague as I always have when I've had a dog with me, my biggest fear now having been realised. Such a shame that the first ever strange dog Flynn has met in his four plus years had to attack him, I wonder what he'll do now if another, friendly dog approaches. The dog attacked in seconds, not even a stand off and no time to take avoiding action, not helpful if the Akita recently was an example because these dogs dont stop once they start, he didnt until his owner pulled him away it was Flynn who sustained the fight at all, he is after all assessed as not DA by two behaviourists. All the months of training, socialising close with other dogs and assessments possibly to no avail all because a selfish owner tries to show what a great dog he has - off lead and so well behaved, when the opposite is actually the case when push comes to shove!
> 
> ...


It's upsetting that you think no one cares; I thought that my first post showed that I did? The only other ones were to point out to another poster that DA dogs aren't automatically HA and I didn't engage further.

As for meeting other dogs; Kilo is about 2.5 weeks post rottie attack - I have spent the whole time recruiting friendly dogs to walk with and he is returning to his normal self gradually, so I truly hope Flynn is unaffected.

Anyhoo; this will be closed now as per your request. I am sorry that you feel so let down by us all .


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## dexter12 (Aug 28, 2012)

Malmum said:


> I don't know why people felt the need to ask via pm's - think they may have found the whole thing too intimidating which is a real shame! Needless remarks about posters lying over trivia and the whole thing becoming childish and off topic. I won't be coming back to this thread and have asked for it to be closed. Can't be bothered with childishness or arguing the toss about my views. They have just been reinforced all the more!


Loads of people asked on this thread if he was ok, only person lying is u, saying no one asked.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Malmum said:


> I don't know why people felt the need to ask via pm's - think they may have found the whole thing too intimidating which is a real shame! Needless remarks about posters lying over trivia and the whole thing becoming childish and off topic. I won't be coming back to this thread and have asked for it to be closed. Can't be bothered with childishness or arguing the toss about my views. They have just been reinforced all the more!


Others are childish you say? : Who has lied about what? are you even reading the same thread?

What exactly did you expect from this thread a whole heap of "OMG all those STAFFS are evil evil evil- ban them immediately"

It would not happen from you if someone came on saying "my dog has just been bitten by a Mal" so why do you expect it from anyone who likes staffies? Did you really expect everyone to go - "yes Malmum- every single thing you say is correct?"

The other owner in this situation IS to blame 110%- his dog should have been on a lead- then this would not have happened had it have been- end of.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Shadowrat-

Good post,

but just a thought- what about decent people who want to take a dog from a shelter or indeed try to buy from reputabe breeders or uphold the breed- I am in no way as malmum seems to think trying to say there isn't a problem- of course there is you'd have to be blind not to see that or ask anyone in rescue-

*But with such a backlash who would want to take on perfectly nice, perfectly manageable dogs that need homes.*

There's a problem- but one would assume a dog lover and person on this forum would understand irresponsibility can occur and be applied to any breed- no one is denying they can be intimidation by them- but this is a people based issue NOT necessarily the breed- great example your dobes- hardly any news items or reports against them- they haven't been as exploited in recent years

The issue now appears to be what to do about the staff explosion- sadly not the topic of this thread.

malmum, i was under the impression from your posts that your dog was ok- clearly you are still shaken and that's a shame.


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## dexter12 (Aug 28, 2012)

If ur comment about people saying others where lying was aimed at me over the DDB insurance comments I never said he was lying just stated that because one insurance company said no to one person does not make that breed hard to insure!


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## 2Cats2Dogs (Oct 30, 2012)

Hi Malmum,

Sorry to read about Flynn's attack. I hope you and him are doing well. Not a nice experience at all.

The owner is to blame. To walk a dog without a stable lead is a no no. For any breed.

My friend has 2 staffies and my g/f's daughter has 1 and they are soppy and loving as anything. I really hope this doesn't enforce upon you that the dogs themselves are aggressive and dangerous. They are stunning dogs and it is such a shame that the breed is let down by irresponsible owners.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Right good people of PF, let's not 'bite' as it were to the blatant misunderstandings written on this thread.

IF! people feel too intimidates to write on this thread then i think that's a bit sad- please don't feel your opinion is not welcomed just because people don't agree with you.

That is the essence of debate.

All those pm ing Malmum, please don't feel like you'll get a barrage against you- i'm sure many of you have personal experiences that are understandable- of course there's a problem- they're everywhere.

Discussion is good, ignoring or not commenting on previous statements is bad form- if you want to enter a debate or say your piece I feel you defo should-

Has this thread really been that bad??? Only one poster has offended me with almost glee at a dog injury- THAT to me is the saddest issue here.


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## Lola71 (Feb 23, 2011)

I think that comment about no one asking if he is ok is below the belt....there are loads of posts asking that....myself included!


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## Guest (Oct 31, 2012)

i have just checked john lewis to see if they cover for DDB and it looks like they do - they are on their list of breeds to cover for anyway and their through their online quote questionnaire they are more than happy to give you a quote for this breed 
as for the whole thread it's a shame it's exploded into this not all staffs are owned by complete morons , i'd happily give a home to a staffy i think a lot of what it boils down to is lack of research on others parts etc or just that they like the 'history' that goes with the breed and thats real sad because they are great dogs when owned by the right people.
i'm sorry flynn was attacked malmum , i do hope he's okay and hope that you weren't too shaken


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Malmum said:


> Good post Pupcakes, nice to see some kind of understanding at how intimidating the breed can be.
> 
> I will continue to avoid them like the plague as I always have when I've had a dog with me, my biggest fear now having been realised. Such a shame that the first ever strange dog Flynn has met in his four plus years had to attack him, I wonder what he'll do now if another, friendly dog approaches. The dog attacked in seconds, not even a stand off and no time to take avoiding action, not helpful if the Akita recently was an example because these dogs dont stop once they start, he didnt until his owner pulled him away it was Flynn who sustained the fight at all, he is after all assessed as not DA by two behaviourists. All the months of training, socialising close with other dogs and assessments possibly to no avail all because a selfish owner tries to show what a great dog he has - off lead and so well behaved, when the opposite is actually the case when push comes to shove!
> 
> ...


If this is aimed at me I don't really give two hoots, I'm not even a staff fan but one thing I REALLY hate is prejudice - in ANY form what so ever, and you've been showing it from start to finish and that is not on and I'd always speak out against that I'm afraid.

Also your last comment is completely uncalled for and ridiculous.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Denying a breed *can* have a trait towards DA is a dangerous and uneducated thing to do, especially when even the breed sites state so. Blaming owners, whether good or bad is a cop out IMO. An innocent dog was caught up in all of this and two hoots or not doesn't make that any different. Maya has been attacked by them on four occasions and it's just not on, giving the breed a bad name while owners deny their capabilities

There will be more threads on here regarding attacks by Staffs, always has been but until it happens to one of yours you will likely still be blinkered.

Thank you Diablo.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Malmum,

calling people uneducated is rather ignorant- everyone is on here to express a view.

Innocent dogs get attacked every day by all manner of DA types- yes some may have a higher percentage in the population such as staffs- but this is down to BREEDING and SELECTING.

You are choosing to ignore the large proportion of other DA breeds and more importantly INDIVIDUALS that have attacked other dogs- 

Staffs are not the only problem- BAD OWNERS are the problem. 

Dog was on a lead- nothing would have happened .

I have given the time of day to your posts- i trust you've had the veracity and interest to read mine and indeed the aggression issue i posted on the other breed trait thread that i specifically would have liked you to comment on?


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## dexter12 (Aug 28, 2012)

Malmum said:


> Denying a breed *can* have a trait towards DA is a dangerous and uneducated thing to do, especially when even the breed sites state so. Blaming owners, whether good or bad is a cop out IMO. An innocent dog was caught up in all of this and two hoots or not doesn't make that any different. Maya has been attacked by them on four occasions and it's just not on, giving the breed a bad name while owners deny their capabilities
> 
> There will be more threads on here regarding attacks by Staffs, always has been but until it happens to one of yours you will likely still be blinkered.
> 
> Thank you Diablo.


I don't think people are blinkered people are just not agreeing with your opinion!


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Can you please show me the posts that say "all staffies are perfect and would not attack ever ever ever ever" thanks

Um also Diablo is making your post "Don't think so. He said John Lewis wouldn't insure DDB's and some have them on a 'Specific breed list' don't see why he'd lie - unless you know better!" out to be utter nonsense?


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

I believe the first thing i said in my first post was that i hoep flynn is ok!!!!
I really think malmum you need too read the posts properly because it seems you are reading what you want too read.

I am not going too slag off a whole breed too make you happy love thats not how it works were all iontitled too our opinion and if you dont like it why did you post this topic? what did you really expect everyone too slate staffords off.
I hate any form of prejudice against any breed and i will and do stick up for all breeds from people calling small dogs rat dogs etc i dont agree with it because i love all dogs and i dont and will not judge a whole breed because of a few actions some.
If you dont like staffords thats your problem malmum but seriously you think slagging the breed as a whole off because of the actions of a few irresponsible owners who unforantly have the breed is the way forward!!!!

I use too have alot of respect for you and posts you wrote but i have lost all respect for you and your prejudice posts, i true dog lover would never slag off a whole breed because of the actions of a few.

I dont blame people for being warry off dogs if they have had bad experiences thats only natural difference is others dont come on here saying how they would have been even smugger if there dog would have killed the other dog when they are trying too make a point about the other breed being DA, and the other owner being irresponible.

No dog from any breed is born bad.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Who said you said that? No use making things up a bit like my 'outlawed' and 'hate' comments that I never made! AS for 'respect' it's a forum, who cares whether we're respected by people we don't and won't ever now?


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

just to ask..how is Flynn...and hope he is recovering well...best wishes...


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Malmum said:


> Denying a breed *can* have a trait towards DA is a dangerous and uneducated thing to do, especially when even the breed sites state so. Blaming owners, whether good or bad is a cop out IMO. An innocent dog was caught up in all of this and two hoots or not doesn't make that any different. Maya has been attacked by them on four occasions and it's just not on, giving the breed a bad name while owners deny their capabilities
> 
> There will be more threads on here regarding attacks by Staffs, always has been but *until it happens to one of yours* you will likely still be blinkered.
> 
> Thank you Diablo.


Already has thanks, and just like when it was a German Shepherd or a Jack Russell I blamed the owner for having an aggressive dog that was allowed to attack my own, I'm not childish and ignorant enough to use my own personal experience to tar an entire breed, species or sub-genre of a species thank you very much. This kind of thinking is why we have so much blind and ignorant hatred in the world. If my experiences of men were all bad would I be right in saying they're all f****** b*******s or would that be ya know...prejudice and ignorant? Tarring the whole of anything with the same brush is irrational.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Malmum said:


> Who said you said that? No use making things up a bit like my 'outlawed' and 'hate' comments that I never made! AS for 'respect' it's a forum, who cares whether we're respected by people we don't and won't ever now?


Well we may as well get rid of the reputation thing then. Good grief woman- are you hitting self- destruct.

This is all getting very out of hand.


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## dexter12 (Aug 28, 2012)

Malmum said:


> Who said you said that? No use making things up a bit like my 'outlawed' and 'hate' comments that I never made! AS for 'respect' it's a forum, who cares whether we're respected by people we don't and won't ever now?


brilliant attitude u have! :tongue_smilie:


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## auspiciousmind (Sep 2, 2012)

Glad to hear Flynn is ok  

... I own a Staffy.. infact I've owned 3.

One staffy x Boxer (Lucy) -> she was tall , well built and GORGEOUS .. she loved everyone.. she was attacked by a Dachshund.. quite violently may I add.. All that time she was cowering behind my legs until I managed to wrench the dog off!!!

One staffy with all the paperwork (Jasmine) -> She grew up with all the children in our family.. didn't like other dogs as in she would just walk away and snarl but NEVER attacked any human or dog in 14 years.

One staffy who was going to be dumped or used as BAIT (Diesel) -> He LOVES other dogs.. he wants to play and bound around constantly hasn't ever attacked any human or animal EVER.. He loves everyone. He was bitten by a golden retriever that was off lead.. he stood there and let him do it... and still after that LOVES other dogs.

It's the OWNERS not the dogs fault. I can't believe anyone would hate or be so prejudiced against any breed of dog.


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Julesky said:


> Well we may as well get rid of the reputation thing then. Good grief woman- are you hitting self- destruct.
> 
> This is all getting very out of hand.


Or just give bad rep to anyone that doesn't like the fact that you expressed pleasure at a dog getting hurt while at the same time refusing to reply to any valid points made on the actual thread that disagree with your opinion...

Not that I'm bitter about losing some of my reputation points *grumble grumble*


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## dexter12 (Aug 28, 2012)

Alice Childress said:


> Or just give bad rep to anyone that doesn't like the fact that you expressed pleasure at a dog getting hurt while at the same time refusing to reply to any valid points made on the actual thread that disagree with your opinion...
> 
> Not that I'm bitter about losing some of my reputation points *grumble grumble*


exactly not one valid point has been answered, and its us that are blinkerd!


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

This all needs looking at, don't have the time at the min perhaps one of the other mods will pick up on it and moderate but for the time being it is to stay closed


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