# Breeder keeping dep after kittens have died :-(



## Paulamaria

Hi all,

I'm a new member, and in need of some advice in quite a sad situation.
In June I put a £200 deposit down on 2 beautiful British shorthair kittens; a blue boy and a blue tabby girl. We visited them a couple of times and all seemed fine.
However, we were called by the breeder about 4 weeks ago with the sad news that our blue tabby girl had passed away after possibly getting something stuck in her stomach but the breeder was still not quite sure what happened. We were offered another kitten in replacement, as we'd always wanted two together, and this was an extremely difficult decision for me and my boyfriend, as for us animals aren't interchangeable! 
We visited the new kitten and fell in love with the new silver spotty and decided to take her so that they would both be together in their new home
We were getting really excited about picking up our kittens this weekend, having bought their beds, toys, food etc. 
However, yesterday I received an email from the breeder with yet more tragic news that out blue boy had also passed away after eating a washing liquid tablet from her kitchen cupboards.

My boyfriend and I were absolutely devastated that now both of our chosen kittens had passed away. The breeder offered us a colourpoint that she now had available, but for us it didn't feel right and we didn't feel comfortable anymore with the situation after choosing our names for them and getting to know them.

As the situation didn't feel meant to be, we made the decision that having lost both of our original kittens, that we wouldn't feel right having the replacement kittens anymore. We spoke to the breeder and she said she would refund our deposit, but then ten minutes later emailed to say she wouldnt be.

The breeder has now turned very nasty in her emails, saying that the deposit is non-refundable. Of course we understood that they were, and in the event of time wasters etc we know that the deposit is a breeders security. But she knows that we are genuine, loving buyers who had visited her several times, and this really is an exceptional circumstance.

She has told us that she has spoken to another breeder who has told her that she should be keeping our deposit, but we find it quite heartless that she is keeping deposits for two kittens who have now passed away. This is a hard enough situation for us as it is, to now also be faced with such a difficult breeder.

Any help or advice on this situation would really be appreciated,

Thank you in advance

Paula


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## hawksport

I asked trading standards about this a few months ago. Legally you are entitled to your deposit back. The cost of anything you have bought in anticipation of the purchase, beds, toys, food ect. If the kitten was cheaper than equivelent kittens elsewhere you are also entitled to claim the difference in price for loss of bargain.
That is straight from trading standards solicitors


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## Devil-Dogz

I would email breeder and state that if she doesnt refund your money in X amount of days you will be reporting her to trading standards.

- Have you got proof that you left a deposit with her, on two kittens?


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## gemcml

Hi Paula, I must be honest I really don't know what to say about this
It sounds really odd! If you hadn't of met the kittens i would of instantly said that it was a scam!! You know one of these ones that claim they have exactly what you're looking for, ask you to send the money etc etc and disappear off the face of the earth or give you a sob story that they passed away. But the fact that you met the kittens leaves me totally baffled!!

I know a lot of breeders do state that a deposit is non refundable.
But £200 is a HUGE deposit! I thought they usually asked for 10% deposit!?
It just sounds really 'iffy' to me

I think you will be able to get the deposit back somehow... but will probably have a huge fight on your hands unfortunately

Sorry i can't offer much help or advice


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## Devil-Dogz

Deposits are the root of all evil - once a breeder has taken a deposit they have put themselves and buyers into a contract, the breeder cant forfill this as the kittens are no longer alive, so by rights the buyer has every right to have her deposit back. within the law animals are seen as anything else thats sold, you wouldnt put a deposit down on a sofa and not have it back if the sofa was to become damaged by the seller.


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## hawksport

A deposit can only be non refundable if the buyer fails to honour the contract not if the seller fails to honour it.


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## Paulamaria

Hi everyone!
Thank you so much for your helpful replies. This is kind of what I was thinking all along- that surely she cant legally keep the deposit if the kittens aren't even alive. (I feel heartless even talking about it so matter of factor which is why I just can't understand her attitude!)
I do have a receipt, which also states the colours and sex of the kittens I had chosen. She feels because she has offered me replacements and we have said no, that she is entitled to keep our deposit. It is a crazy situation, I agree if we hadn't seen them that it would seem like a scam! The kittens were £380 each, so I kind of thought £100 deposit on each was ok, but maybe not?
I will definitely email her about trading standards and see what happens,

Thanks again for taking the time to reply,

Paula


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## Devil-Dogz

Keep all the emails, and other messages that tell you your kittens have passed, along with the receipt. - Just incase you take things to trading standards.
Good luck.


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## gemcml

Madness!! ...Can't imagine how heartbreaking it must be for you to have met them, fallen in love with them, bought them all their stuff and been so hyped about bringing them home only to have it all taken away! :crying: I am so sorry for your loss. 

Best of luck with getting your deposit back! xx


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## Paulamaria

Thank you 
We could hardly believe it after the first phone call to say our little girl tabby had died- you can imagine how hard it was to get the same news 4 week later about our little boy. It's indeed madness that after such awful luck that the breeder is only concerned about money and not how upset we are about losing our kittens! X


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## hawksport

I wouldn't buy a puppy from anyone that called them "it".


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## Devil-Dogz

gemcml said:


> When i phoned the breeder about our puppy he said "if you like *it* you can have *it*" Which i found quite disturbing. But my friend pointed out that they do tend to detach themselves from them


Oh dear - only the wrong sort of breeder couldnt help but be attached to the lives they bring into the world - I bet it was just an 'it' something there to cash in on, If you want it you can have it - that was simple, no checking of you ... Typical BYB.


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## hawksport

Back yard breeder. Someone who breeds litters as a cash crop and has no interest once the cash has been handed over


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## ChinaBlue

If she has a website you could see if she is a member of a breed club and perhaps make a complaint with them but I doubt that would get you anywhere. I find it a bit odd that she lost 2 kittens in the manner she suggests - she is obviously not very careful about her general kitten care. We know kittens can get themselves into trouble and if there's trouble to be got then kits will find it; but to lose two of them seems to indicate a total lack of care. 

I wonder if she has sold these kittens to someone else, perhaps at a higher price, and is spinning you a line about them dying - maybe it's my warped mind but this all seems very odd.


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## Babette

As a breeder in Denmark our national laws might be different. In my contracts I always tries to write down what both buyer and seller does in different situations like this one. 

Personaly I think the money must go back as I cannot come with the cat and it has past away in my care. If I call it a deposite there is a law demanding me to do so. If I call it a reservation fee I can keep it if the buyer have second thoughts.

I think your reputation as a proper reliable breeder will be damiged not paying the deposite back when the kitten dies. Moreover my hart tells me to do so even though I might have used the money.


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## kathyj

ChinaBlue said:


> I wonder if she has sold these kittens to someone else, perhaps at a higher price, and is spinning you a line about them dying - maybe it's my warped mind but this all seems very odd.


That is exactly what I think too.

She sounds unscrupulous to me. She is either uncaring or conning you. Either way I think you should be entited to get your money back. You could always try the Small Claims Court.


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## spid

If a buyer backs out then you keep the deposit, if the seller is unable to supply the kitten then you get your deposit back.In this situation (if it were I) I would refund the full deposit. I suppose you *could say* that you accepted one different kitten and so the deposit transferred to that kitten - and you have backed out of that sale so that deposit wouldn't be refundable, but the second deposit would be refundable. As an ethical breeder I would refund both.


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## havoc

Whoever it was who said in an earlier post that deposits are the root of all evil got it absolutely right. Most breeders aren't trained legal professionals and some seem to invent law to suit the situation. Most of the time they're plain wrong and rely on the ignorance of buyers.

Unless you sign a contract stating the full deposit was not refundable in any circumstances *before* handing over a penny then you get your money back in full without question. It is not allowed to add terms and conditions to any contract after any payment has been made. It's a common mistake of breeders to take a deposit and then have buyers sign kitten contracts when they pick up the kitten. That contract is a complete waste of time and paper if a deposit was taken earlier.

What's more, if a breeder does have a non-refund policy and has done everything right then they would have to show their reason for keeping the deposit with a breakdown of expenses/losses. It is OK to deduct reasonable expenses such as re-advertising from a refund but even if the buyer chooses to opt out I'm not at all sure a breeder would win on keeping all of a large deposit.

In this particular case any contract which does exist has been frustrated because the subject no longer exists. Write to this breeder one more time making it clear you will pursue the matter through the County Court if your deposit is not returned within seven days and all costs will be added to the claim. You can head it Letter Before Action if you want but it isn't actually necessary. Then if your money doesn't appear go to Money Claim Online (MCOL) and file a claim.


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## Cerridwen

You are of course entitled to the deposit. If the story the breeder has told you is true the biggest concern isn't that she wants to keep the money. Two kittens have died in a very short period of time, I'd contact the RSPCA. She needs to be checked up. I can accept that a kitten ingests a foreign object and dies from it as an accident but it's a disaster that her kittens can get to the washing tablets!


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## Paulamaria

Thanks again for your replies!
To ne honest, I have a similar feeling about the welfare of the kittens and whether I should contact the RSPCA, as it seems like an accident for it to happen once, but surely twice is a lack of care.
She told my boyfriend that they believed the kitten had the liquid on his fur, and licked it off which is what killed him, and apparently before they realised how serious it was her and the vets had been laughing at how he smelled nice.
This made us so angry- maybe I'm thinking the wrong thing here, but if I suspected my kitten had something toxic on their fur I would have washed and scrubbed them down until I knew there was nothing on them??


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## lymorelynn

I've just read through this and have to say how sorry I am for your situation 
If I suspected that one of my kittens had something on his/her fur it would be washed off immediately! to have two kittens die in accidental circumstances like yours is more than unfortunate - it's carelessness on the part of the breeder and your deposit should have been refunded.
Does the breeder have a prefix registered with the GCCF? It might be worthwhile getting in touch with them, though like the RSPCA, sadly I doubt if it will change anything.
If you pursue the matter through the small claims court judgment may well be in your favour but unfortunately that doesn't necessarily mean that you'll get your deposit back 
Sorry to sound so negative but it saddens me to think we have so little real come-back against unscrupulous people


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## koekemakranka

Sounds extremely dodgy to me. Two kittens dead by poisoning?? What kind of a breeder is so careless? And then "not sure" what killed the first kitten?? No, something is up. Get your deposit back and find another reputable breeder.
So sorry for your disappointment.:crying:


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## Paulamaria

She has now said that she will be consulting a solicitor to see where she stands, and I have informed her that I will be taking her to the small claims court if necessary.
As other people have said on here, all would give a deposit back as a matter of it being the right thing morally to do, as would I if I were a breeder myself. Surely it's hard enough to tell a buyer that both their kittens have died in your care, without then telling them that actually you're keeping their money too. It's almost insane! She just can't seem to understand that for us, the purchase of the replacement kittens didn't feel like the right thing to do, and this situation made us feel very uncomfortable.

It seems like we made the wrong choice for our breeder, we are so upset with this whole situation as it is!


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## Cerridwen

Paulamaria said:


> Thanks again for your replies!
> To ne honest, I have a similar feeling about the welfare of the kittens and whether I should contact the RSPCA, as it seems like an accident for it to happen once, but surely twice is a lack of care.
> She told my boyfriend that they believed the kitten had the liquid on his fur, and licked it off which is what killed him, and apparently before they realised how serious it was her and the vets had been laughing at how he smelled nice.
> This made us so angry- maybe I'm thinking the wrong thing here, but if I suspected my kitten had something toxic on their fur I would have washed and scrubbed them down until I knew there was nothing on them??


Either she's lying or the her vet is an idiot as well. It's well known that washing tablets (anything you put in your dish washer or washing machine) is extremely dangerous to ingest! It's highly caustic. It's no laughing matter and if the vets been laughing at is, he/she needs to have the license removed.

Just imagine... would you tolerate a doctor laughing and talking about a nice breath if your child had eaten a washing tablet?


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## pocketrockets

Could it be that these kittens are indeed still alive and been sold onto someone else by the breeder. A scam of sorts....

I have heard of "bad breeders" selling kittens ten times over, to scam deposits out of people.


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## Paulamaria

I did actually phone the vets who confirmed the washing tablet situation- so it appears to be the case.

Have just been emailed by the breeder who has now agreed to my deposit being sent back. I had told her the advice I had been given on here, which maybe has made her see sense. She has insisted that the breeders she knows had given her was different- but who knows!
Her email was a little more polite and professional, so maybe she has realised that this whole situation is maybe something she needs to really think about. She has said she is going to still seek advice so that she knows where she stands in the future; let's just hope this never happens again!


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## missmoomoo

i seriously can't believe what I have been reading!  I can't give you any more advice than what has already been said, but just wanted to say I am very sorry you have found yourself in this situation. How awful and what a callous lady... doesn't sound like a responsible breeder to me more like a byb. Good luck with everything and keep us updated with the outcome as this could be useful for people in the future. Unfortunately you are not the only person that has been in this situation I'm sure.


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## pocketrockets

Paulamaria said:


> I did actually phone the vets who confirmed the washing tablet situation- so it appears to be the case.
> 
> Have just been emailed by the breeder who has now agreed to my deposit being sent back. I had told her the advice I had been given on here, which maybe has made her see sense. She has insisted that the breeders she knows had given her was different- but who knows!
> Her email was a little more polite and professional, so maybe she has realised that this whole situation is maybe something she needs to really think about. She has said she is going to still seek advice so that she knows where she stands in the future; let's just hope this never happens again!


This must have caused you so much heartache 

Did you describe the kitten's colouring to the vets? To make sure it was your kitten, as this women seems to have several.

I hope you find two kittens soon, maybe try a rescue centre. A rescue deserves a donation more than lining the pockets of a byb.

Wishing you luck on your quest. And hopefully your deposit is forthcoming soon.


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## Guest

Blimey! What a horrible thing to have to go through! 

Glad it's all been sorted and your getting your deposit back.

Poor kittens, what was she thinking letting them anywhere near washing tablets :cursing:

***
Hope you and your boyfriend manage to find your perfect kittens ((big hugs))


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## claire & the gang

Firstly i`m glad you have got your deposit back & sorry that you lost your kittens.

I can only reiterate what other people have said....there is something seriously amiss here when the kitten has been able to access washing up tablets. Any caring breeder will attempt to make sure that everywhere in their home is kitten proofed......i mistake can happen to anyone but having lost 2 kittens to ACCIDENTS seems a little more like negligence than an accident.

I hope you find some kittens for a more reputable breeder. If its a particular breed you want i`m sure some of the breeders on here could point you in the direction of a more Conscientious breeder.

I myself had problems when looking for my maine coon babies & under the advise of a PF member i found a breeder with babies who couldn`t have been loved more and are both beautiful.

I hope you have the same good fortune.


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## Paulamaria

Thanks for all your best wishes. It really has been a horrible time, after spending so much time talking and thinking about them and preparing to bring them home. Im sure we made the right decision to not take the replacement kittens as we both agreed it didn't feel right.
I think we may leave our search for kittens for a little while, I'm very much for rescuing cats from possibly our local shelter or one close by, so I think this maybe indeed our next step in the future, either way we know we can give a loving home to a cat in the future and I'm sure we will find our lovely cats soon, wherever they may be from!

Thanks again for all of your help and advice, it is so appreciated.

Paula


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## lizward

I agree with everyone else - losing two kittens to accidents spells carelessness to me, either that or the breeder is the unluckiest person around. Of course you must have your deposit back and I am glad to hear that now seems to be likely to happen.

liz


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## ChinaBlue

If you do still want BSHs then why not rescue one - try the breed clubs - they usually have a welfare/rehoming section. There are several BSH breed clubs so you may find a cat you can offer a loving home too.

P.S. Pleased you are getting your deposit back.


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## colliemerles

_i am so sorry to read this, it must be so upsetting to have lost both kittens, i wish you all the best in finding your perfect little fur babies, i understand it must of put you off, but please remember not all breeders are like this lady, it all seems very odd to me. glad you got your deposit back, and do let us know if you do get a kitten/kittens.xxx_


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## Paulamaria

I will definitely look into BSh rehoming/welfare- hadn't really thought of that! Though thinking back my family dog Charlie came from a retriever rescue centre so there must be the same or similar for cats too!

I will definitely keep you updated- and hopefully my next thread will be a happier one 

Thanks to all

Paula x


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## pocketrockets

My fingers are crossed for you, and I am sure two lovely kittens are just around the corner...

Here is a link of the type of breeder to avoid in future, this thread shocked me to the core:

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-breeding/106834-so-disappointed-14.html


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## Devil-Dogz

> Whoever it was who said in an earlier post that deposits are the root of all evil got it absolutely right. Most breeders aren't trained legal professionals and some seem to invent law to suit the situation. Most of the time they're plain wrong and rely on the ignorance of buyers.


aay that were me, this is the reason we dont take deposits when finding homes for our pups - as once the breeder has accepted a deposit, they have engaged in a 'contract' with the buyer, from a breeders point of view if you was to change your mind and want to keep the pup that had already been selected you would have to hand it over..Bit silly when ethical breeders choose to breed for themselves.


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## NicoleW

Paulamaria said:


> I did actually phone the vets who confirmed the washing tablet situation- so it appears to be the case.


Sorry to ask... But wouldn't this be breach of the Data Protection Act as it wasn't the OP's kitten?


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## Devil-Dogz

NicoleW said:


> Sorry to ask... But wouldn't this be breach of the Data Protection Act as it wasn't the OP's kitten?


I believe so - vets should only give information to them that are registered owners with the vets of the animal. - we often have this issue with rescue dogs, where the owners that have handed them in have to contact their vet and give permission to pass the information over to us as fosters.


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## Guest

All that ran through my head was...I wonder if she decided she wanted to keep these two kittens and hence why others have become available. Some breeders can have their vet in their back pocket. 

I find it highly unlikely that 2 cats...just happen to be the 2 you want die from poisoning 1 of which is clear what the cause is.hmy:

Glad you have your deposit back. Good luck in your search.


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## Cerridwen

NicoleW said:


> Sorry to ask... But wouldn't this be breach of the Data Protection Act as it wasn't the OP's kitten?


I wouldn't expect any better from a vet who laughs at a kitten ingesting a washing tablet.


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## lymorelynn

So relieved to hear that the breeder has agreed to refund your deposit. I wish you all the best in finding another kitten or even rescues if you decide that is the way to go


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## Lil Dee

Paulamaria said:


> I will definitely look into BSh rehoming/welfare- hadn't really thought of that!


Paula, my heart really does go out to you - what a dreadful situation you found yourself in.

Once you have managed to recover from this awful shock, and you start looking for another furrbaby (or more...) then do not think that BSH are all in specialist rescues....I literally found myself choosing which one(s) I wanted, after checking the rescues in and around my area.

Hard to believe, I know - but it's true. As long as you are happy to accept the timescales (have they recently been spayed/need to be homed NOW) then you should find a number of options.

My two girls came complete with papers (verified), and the others that I was looking at were also with papers, so it is not impossible to find a little one that really needs you, and that matches your hearts desire. :001_tt1:

I really do wish you all the luck in the world - you obviously have a lot of love to give to some very lucky kitties in the near future.


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## Cat Lover Chris

Devil-Dogz said:


> I would email breeder and state that if she doesnt refund your money in X amount of days you will be reporting her to trading standards.
> 
> - Have you got proof that you left a deposit with her, on two kittens?


I would also point out that the Inland Revenue will be contacted because you can bet your bottom dollar this breeder is not telling the HMRC about her activities. If this threat does not do the trick then you should do it anyway cos the tax people will relieve her of a lot more money than the £200 she owes you (Mr Cameron has a war to pay for and hoards of rioting scroungers Social to pay)!!


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## Cat Lover Chris

shetlandlover said:


> All that ran through my head was...I wonder if she decided she wanted to keep these two kittens and hence why others have become available. Some breeders can have their vet in their back pocket.
> 
> I find it highly unlikely that 2 cats...just happen to be the 2 you want die from poisoning 1 of which is clear what the cause is.hmy:
> 
> Glad you have your deposit back. Good luck in your search.


Sorry; just finished reading the rest of the thread. 
The cynic in me agrees with "Shetland Lover". The important thing is you have your money back. Now if you want to indicate what part of the country this so-called breeder emanates from, then it will act as a warning to others not to deal with him/her in the future ?!?!


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## MooKatMoon

Hi Paula,
having just read this thread, i am furious, I am pleased that you got your deposit returned. but really this should not end there.

This breeder should be reported to the RSPCA, also she should be reported to the breeders club. whether that be the GCCF or TICA.
Also report to the tax office.

The vet should also be reported, as it is against the law to give details of a pets treatment to someone who is not the owner.

Please report this breeder to the Breeder clubs if nothing else. sent them copies of all emails and recipets. everything you have that deals with this sorry mess. Others need protecting from breeders like this

I really hope that you find your furbabies, and i am sure you will.
Good luck in your search.


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## havoc

> I would also point out that the Inland Revenue will be contacted because you can bet your bottom dollar this breeder is not telling the HMRC about her activities


That's an old chestnut which has been thoroughly investigated by the HMRC and there's no revenue to collect. Those breeders who run a related business alongside their breeding win from being able to offset costs against tax but the rest of us would end up collecting rebates rather than paying any tax.

I'm delighted the OP has their deposit back and dare I say it, I think they've had a lucky escape. The breeder may only have been careless but such careless demonstrates a worrying lack of knowledge.


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## Paulamaria

Hello again!

Thanks again for your comments! (I haven't checked back today so have only just seen the extra ones!)

I think you may be right in that we've had a lucky escape, as although up until the death of our second kitten we were more than happy with the breeder and how she was bringing up the kittens, the attitude that she displayed when we asked for our deposit back after our second kitten died showed a whole other side to her. It was clear that pound signs were in her eyes, not the heartbreaking situation that we were in or what was the ethical thing to do.

It does appear that now she will be sending our deposit back, which is good!

In terms of the vet, when I called up I spoke to the receptionist who asked me details of the breeder. Although she did say she couldn't give details her words were "yes that has....I mean could happen" when I asked about the washing tablet. She was basically telling me that it was true without actually saying it if that makes sense?!?

The trusting (possibly naive!) side of me says that maybe this was just a horrible case of bad luck, and that there was nothing she could have done, accidents happen etc, but I would be a lot more careful in the future. I may think about if there are next steps I should take, but I do believe that all her other kittens went to their homes without a hitch!

I think the idea of spreading the word of irresponsible breeders is a good thing, but I wouldn't like to mention a region (as it would be unfair on all the responsible and reputable breeders in my area) and I think it would be unfair of me to mention names or areas etc on such a public forum without more than just my evidence, if that seems fair??

Obviously all of your advice is very much appreciated- I'm just a kitten lover not a breeder so if as professionals you think there is something I should definitely do then I would listen to all of your advice!


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## gskinner123

Been following your thread and couldn't really add anything to all the helpful replies you had. I'm sorry you had to go through all that, and after the heartbreak of being told both kittens had died. Awful. 

I too don't think 'naming and shaming' is such a good idea for many reasons; for your own sake, certainly not of the breeder. But I've often thought it might be a nice idea to have sticky thread for people to post on when they've had a really good, positive experience of buying kittens, where perhaps just the breeder's name, prefix, general location and breed of cat could be added. I think the list would soon grow and might be an invaluable source for people.

I'm not sure if there might be reason(s) why this wouldn't be 'allowed' on PF and I guess it *might* be open to abuse?


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## Cat Lover Chris

gskinner123 said:


> Been following your thread and couldn't really add anything to all the helpful replies you had. I'm sorry you had to go through all that, and after the heartbreak of being told both kittens had died. Awful.
> 
> I too don't think 'naming and shaming' is such a good idea for many reasons; for your own sake, certainly not of the breeder. But I've often thought it might be a nice idea to have sticky thread for people to post on when they've had a really good, positive experience of buying kittens, where perhaps just the breeder's name, prefix, general location and breed of cat could be added. I think the list would soon grow and might be an invaluable source for people.
> 
> I'm not sure if there might be reason(s) why this wouldn't be 'allowed' on PF and I guess it *might* be open to abuse?


I didn't say name the breeder, just indicate the geographical area ! Most people on this forum could quickly do their own research and draw their own conclusions.

And I agree with praising professional breeders who do things correctly and are reputable.

( I have also recently spat my venom on the Dog Forum about BYB's selling puppies [through a local garden centre] that have had no injections, are only 6 weeks and are kept in glass cages under fluorescent lights with minimal food and water. I have also discovered that they are selling for between 600 -750 Euros, with the breeder getting 400 Euros and the rest to the garden centre. And people wonder why BYB's do what they do? When there are people silly enough to pay that sort of money for pedigree "handbag" dogs that have no papers etc. Grrrrrrrrrrr)


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## *Camelia*

Wow what a dreadful thing to have to go through, I've recently been emailing prospective breeders for next year, most replies have been really helpful, I guess you can never tell, maybe that breeder was just really unlucky.


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## Paulamaria

Hi everyone,

Just thought I'd add an update to this, as so many of you showed your interest and kindness in our situation.
Almost two weeks after agreeing to give us our deposit back, our money has still not arrived! The breeder insists it was posted, but is now using the "lost in the post" excuse. She obviously thinks we came in on a banana boat!!
To add insult to injury, she's now claiming to be on holiday (although she's forgotten she already told me she was going on the 10th!) and so says she can't sort out a replacement cheque until she's back on the 16th. The thing is, we've found out where she works, and have called them to enquire whether she's there (without saying anything about this of course) and have been told on both occasions that she's in her office on both days that she's emailed me pretending to be in Turkey!!

I think we've realised now that we're not dealing with a reputable breeder in any way, shape or form, but just a compulsive liar. After belonging to the forum for a couple of weeks now and reading so much about breeding kittens I have also realised that there were other things that were not great about her breeding. 
Unfortunately it looks like a letter before action will be in the post to her this week, and then a small claims court letter following that!


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## Kittenfostermummy

Paulamaria said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Just thought I'd add an update to this, as so many of you showed your interest and kindness in our situation.
> Almost two weeks after agreeing to give us our deposit back, our money has still not arrived! The breeder insists it was posted, but is now using the "lost in the post" excuse. She obviously thinks we came in on a banana boat!!
> To add insult to injury, she's now claiming to be on holiday (although she's forgotten she already told me she was going on the 10th!) and so says she can't sort out a replacement cheque until she's back on the 16th. The thing is, we've found out where she works, and have called them to enquire whether she's there (without saying anything about this of course) and have been told on both occasions that she's in her office on both days that she's emailed me pretending to be in Turkey!!
> 
> I think we've realised now that we're not dealing with a reputable breeder in any way, shape or form, but just a compulsive liar. After belonging to the forum for a couple of weeks now and reading so much about breeding kittens I have also realised that there were other things that were not great about her breeding.
> Unfortunately it looks like a letter before action will be in the post to her this week, and then a small claims court letter following that!


Sorry to hear it still isnt sorted out for you hun but good luck in SCC I hope you win xxxxxxx


----------



## mstori

just been reading through all this and how horrible, it just is byond words. you have been given great advise and unfortunately it does appear that you are going to have to now take things further,

I can appreciate how horrendous this must have been i would be heartbroken too, but at same time, be thankful that now you can get a couple of kittens from a reputable breeder and with all the correct health checks etc. God knows what else she would have lied about! Although you really shouldnt have had to go through all this, I hope people read this and never have to go through this too.

Wishing you all the look in the outcome you deserve and hopefully getting your new family members soon


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## havoc

An email is valid for an LBA. No need to rely on snail mail so you can set a seven day limit for your money with no delays.
The link for filing your claim online is
Making an online court claim for money : Directgov - Money, tax and benefits


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## lizward

Sorry to hear this.

Liz


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## kathyj

I am sorry she still hasn;t coughed up what is rightfully yours. She deserves to be taken to court. Good luck. I was only wondering if you had recieved your money back the other day too. She really sounds like a bad piece of work, and gives good breeders a bad name.


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## Puddycat

What an absolute joke this breeder is. I dont know alot about cats but I know damn well that if I had kittens I would not be letting them eat things that could get stuck inside of them and kill them never mind letting them get in to eat washing tablets!! absolutley disgusting and she should not be allowed to breed cats. If both yours passed away can you imagine how many other peoples die too. Actually you can probably take a bit of comfort in that they most probably have not died and she has done this to many people expecting to get the same kittens as you did. I dont think the deposit is to bad as we payed £150 deposit each for our 2 and they cost £500 a piece, although saying that we havnt actually got the kittens yet but we did checks on our breeder and they seem very well thought of so hopefully we wont have any problems.

It must be terrible for you as we have done the same thing, payed deposits for a brother and sister and named them and set up the apartment for them, bought them toys etc and I know if anything happened now even though we dont have them yet I would feel horrible.

If I where you then I would definatley contact the RSPCA, the breeders association or whatever it is in England and whoever you can report her to and make sure she cannot do this again.

Oh and I really hope you find some new kittens from a good breeder so you can enjoy your pets soon.


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## Paddypaws

Dont forget that in the LBA you can warn her you will be claiming interest at 8% and all court fees.


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## havoc

> Dont forget that in the LBA you can warn her you will be claiming interest at 8% and all court fees.


Court fees are part of the claim from the start. Interest is only applicable if you get judgement and from then. The place to mention it is on the claim form.


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## Gernella

I'm a bit late on this one. To be honest any breeder who allowed her kittens anywhere near dishwasher/washing tablets deserves to be reported for cruelty. Were the poor things so hungry that they were looking for something to eat. Something very funny here altogther. I certainly would make sure she got a bad review and keeping the deposit is despicable. Even though you have only seen them and not lived with them, it must have been heartbreaking.


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## dagny0823

Goodness! It sounds like the same miserable nonsense I always end up going through with landlords every single time I move. Except these are living creatures that I'm sure you were attached to. How awful this woman is and I'm so sorry you have to go through this ordeal. I hope it all sorts out in your favor. Document everything she tells you from this point on if you haven't already been. I'm sure it's small comfort, but you've learned from the experience, so perhaps in the long run, once everything is over with, you'll have better kittens from a better breeder. Good luck and looking forward to updates.


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## Paulamaria

Thanks again everyone!!
We just can't believe the cheek of her- pretending to email from Turkey but when my boyf Paul called her office today and asked to speak to her (this is in Essex not Turkey ) he was told she was on lunch and would be back in 20 minutes! That's a quick flight from Turkey isn't it!! I would laugh if I wasn't so angry!
Have now emailed her a LBA (thanks to all you lovelies above who supplied links and advice) but she hasn't replied yet. If I don't get my money it will be the SCC!
Will keep you all updated!


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## archiebaby

you know what i would do..... if you know for definate where she works, ring her and tell her you are coming round to her place of work( or better still just turn up there) and tell everyone in the office what she has done/doing and you wont be leaving without your deposit so make sure she has it with her this makes me so mad, some people just love taking advantage of others never mind all the upset they have already caused


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## Paulamaria

We are very tempted to, believe me!! I've had to stop my bf going round there on several occasions! It really is amazing how despicable some people are though, and like other people have also said, we're probably better off in the long run. She had so many kittens in her house (as I said above, before coming on here I didn't know as much about kitten breeding as I do now! I'm always getting waylaid by different threads!) and it makes me wonder if any of them had as much care, attention and food as they should have had, or would have had if it'd been a single litter!


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## Paulamaria

She also now has the silver spot kitten for sale at £100 more than previously! Seems a little unfair on any potential buyer, who may now pay £100 more for the kitten just because she wants to make extra money.


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## babycham2002

just wanted to say what an awful situation
bst of luck in getting your money back which is rightfully yours

and glad you have found the forum 
welcome by the way


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## jenny armour

Paulamaria said:


> Thanks again for your replies!
> To ne honest, I have a similar feeling about the welfare of the kittens and whether I should contact the RSPCA, as it seems like an accident for it to happen once, but surely twice is a lack of care.
> She told my boyfriend that they believed the kitten had the liquid on his fur, and licked it off which is what killed him, and apparently before they realised how serious it was her and the vets had been laughing at how he smelled nice.
> This made us so angry- maybe I'm thinking the wrong thing here, but if I suspected my kitten had something toxic on their fur I would have washed and scrubbed them down until I knew there was nothing on them??


'm amazed the vet didnt realise it was serious at the time instead of thinkin it was funny


----------



## dom85

Paulamaria said:


> She also now has the silver spot kitten for sale at £100 more than previously! Seems a little unfair on any potential buyer, who may now pay £100 more for the kitten just because she wants to make extra money.


Probably to claw back some of the money she would have lost out on due to her own carelessness with these poor kittens.

So sorry to hear what's been going on, hopefully the email you sent should make her realise you're not going to give up.


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## havoc

> Probably to claw back some of the money she would have lost out on due to her own carelessness


There are 'breeders' who lurch from litter to litter and until something goes wrong have no concept of how close they are to financial disaster. This sounds like someone who is relying on kitten sales and spends deposits as soon as they're paid. Anyone who takes deposits because they need the money at that stage isn't financially strong enough to be breeding.


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## Bonnie82

I have been following this thread for a while now and I'm absolutely disgusted by the latest developments. Like you, I would be tempted to show up at her place of work and demand the money! What a despicable woman.  I am so sorry you are going through this.


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## Cat Lover Chris

Paulamaria said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Just thought I'd add an update to this, as so many of you showed your interest and kindness in our situation.
> Almost two weeks after agreeing to give us our deposit back, our money has still not arrived! The breeder insists it was posted, but is now using the "lost in the post" excuse. She obviously thinks we came in on a banana boat!!
> To add insult to injury, she's now claiming to be on holiday (although she's forgotten she already told me she was going on the 10th!) and so says she can't sort out a replacement cheque until she's back on the 16th. The thing is, we've found out where she works, and have called them to enquire whether she's there (without saying anything about this of course) and have been told on both occasions that she's in her office on both days that she's emailed me pretending to be in Turkey!!
> 
> I think we've realised now that we're not dealing with a reputable breeder in any way, shape or form, but just a compulsive liar. After belonging to the forum for a couple of weeks now and reading so much about breeding kittens I have also realised that there were other things that were not great about her breeding.
> Unfortunately it looks like a letter before action will be in the post to her this week, and then a small claims court letter following that!


I am really gutted that you have had this unfortunate experience. I can only agree with what others have said about this person. I would go around to her work place and do what has been suggested. Humility is a great leveller !!


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## Paulamaria

She's replied to my LBA with a rather comical email! Apparently I am 'harassing' her and she will contact me when she's back from holiday- what a joke! She's not even on holiday!!! I have sent her two emails regarding the whereabouts of my cheque and one email as the LBA! Ive told her I am
More than willing to show anyone our emails- they've all been polite and friendly. She doesn't like the LBA as I've shown her to be a compulsive liar about being on holiday!She's just a joke and gives a bad name to all the reputable breeders out there. Luckily I know she's thankfully in the minority!
I am now just taking it straight to the small claims court!

I've also suggested she take a look at this thread so she can see what reputable breeders and owners think of her disgusting behaviour! I will also have this to show the court!


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## havoc

Do not react to her emails. You have presumably set a deadline for payment so the only response you are looking for is the return of your deposit. If the deadline passes then file your claim. The cost of filing is automatically added onto what she owes you - the very point of an LBA being to give fair warning of this extra charge.


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## Paulamaria

havoc said:


> Do not react to her emails. You have presumably set a deadline for payment so the only response you are looking for is the return of your deposit. If the deadline passes then file your claim. The cost of filing is automatically added onto what she owes you - the very point of an LBA being to give fair warning of this extra charge.


You are exactly right about not reacting to her emails- it's just very difficult as I'm in such disbelief that she has the cheek to think she's in the right.

I will now give her till Monday, which will be the 7days, and then start my claim!


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## natty01

sounds fishy to me , i wonder if she decided to keep the kittens for herself or maybe sold them to someone else for more than you were going to pay.

i would get your money back asap because im scheptical that both those kittens died.



Paulamaria said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm a new member, and in need of some advice in quite a sad situation.
> In June I put a £200 deposit down on 2 beautiful British shorthair kittens; a blue boy and a blue tabby girl. We visited them a couple of times and all seemed fine.
> However, we were called by the breeder about 4 weeks ago with the sad news that our blue tabby girl had passed away after possibly getting something stuck in her stomach but the breeder was still not quite sure what happened. We were offered another kitten in replacement, as we'd always wanted two together, and this was an extremely difficult decision for me and my boyfriend, as for us animals aren't interchangeable!
> We visited the new kitten and fell in love with the new silver spotty and decided to take her so that they would both be together in their new home
> We were getting really excited about picking up our kittens this weekend, having bought their beds, toys, food etc.
> However, yesterday I received an email from the breeder with yet more tragic news that out blue boy had also passed away after eating a washing liquid tablet from her kitchen cupboards.
> 
> My boyfriend and I were absolutely devastated that now both of our chosen kittens had passed away. The breeder offered us a colourpoint that she now had available, but for us it didn't feel right and we didn't feel comfortable anymore with the situation after choosing our names for them and getting to know them.
> 
> As the situation didn't feel meant to be, we made the decision that having lost both of our original kittens, that we wouldn't feel right having the replacement kittens anymore. We spoke to the breeder and she said she would refund our deposit, but then ten minutes later emailed to say she wouldnt be.
> 
> The breeder has now turned very nasty in her emails, saying that the deposit is non-refundable. Of course we understood that they were, and in the event of time wasters etc we know that the deposit is a breeders security. But she knows that we are genuine, loving buyers who had visited her several times, and this really is an exceptional circumstance.
> 
> She has told us that she has spoken to another breeder who has told her that she should be keeping our deposit, but we find it quite heartless that she is keeping deposits for two kittens who have now passed away. This is a hard enough situation for us as it is, to now also be faced with such a difficult breeder.
> 
> Any help or advice on this situation would really be appreciated,
> 
> Thank you in advance
> 
> Paula


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## jenny armour

have you actually spoken to trading standards about this?
if not you will probably be advised to speak to consumer direct and they will tell you what you need to do and how you stand


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## Paulamaria

I am going to email them tonight and see what they say!

She says because she is a private seller then the sales of goods act doesn't apply to her. She has always told us she is a breeder-we've never thought any different.

Having looked this up, if it is a private sale then the only law that applies is that the animal must be as described. As both kittens described on out receipt are not alive, she surely fails on this part alone. However, just because someone believes themselves to be a private seller, apparently if they are acting in the course of business i.e breeding regularly and of large amounts, then the judge can decide whether to treat them as a business. As she had roughly 25 kittens for sale (I realise now that this is a ridiculously large number and at the time had no idea it was such a large number, but just thought there were a lot) then I would imagine that most judges would agree that she was breeding for business purposes! She keeps her studs in a cattery and has a few female cats. It's clear to me that she's acting like a business!


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## lizward

You won't get anywhere using the business argument. Breeders simply do not make a profit unless they have a very high priced breed (which she doesn't) or are simply dishonest (which she certainly seems to be, but being dishonest does not make her a business)

LIz


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## Paulamaria

Perhaps not- but I find it even more suspicious to use 'the sale of goods act doesn't apply to me' line unless you're looking for a loophole to get out of something-especially a situation when you cannot supply the goods. I'm sure not all breeders do make a profit, in fact Ive read on here that most say they make a loss if anything! However, she is not an honest breeder like the lovely people who have replied on here saying ethically refunding a deposit is the right thing to do, and nobody on here has said they would use the sale of goods act/private seller loophole to get out of a situation like this as they are all honest and responsible breeders! She, however, is only interested in keeping our money!

I have emailed the trading standards local to her and so await their reply!

Thanks again everyone for your advice and help


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## havoc

> You won't get anywhere using the business argument. Breeders simply do not make a profit unless they have a very high priced breed


Complete fallacy that you can only be classed as a business if you make a profit I'm afraid. 25 kittens for sale at one time would definitely fall outside the scope of hobby breeding.


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## Shelley Cat Lover

You poor thing, to have to go through the loss of your expected kittens, then be faced with such an immoral lying b***h is just terrible 

As the others have said, the right thing to do is wait and just proceed with your claim. But i'd be tempted to tell her that you know very well that she isn't on holiday and cut the nonsense. She's obviously so deluded that she thinks you still believe what she is saying 

Good luck in dealing with this woman and I wish you the very best in finding some new fur babies x


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## lizward

havoc said:


> Complete fallacy that you can only be classed as a business if you make a profit I'm afraid. 25 kittens for sale at one time would definitely fall outside the scope of hobby breeding.


Are you sure? It's only four litters and they could spaced over as much as four or five months if the breeder has experienced the same slow sales as the rest of us this year. What is the definition of a business? Surely it is something you do, or are trying to do, in order to make a living?

Liz


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## havoc

I am sure  It's a subjective judgement which is why some perfectly good hobby breeders have a problem with various authorities. There are no set rules but profit doesn't come into it - plenty of businesses don't make any profit.


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## lizward

I looked it up on HMRC after what you said, it seems anyone who ever sells anything on a regular basis is to be regarded as a business, but then they also say that tax inspectors should be aware of people claiming to be a business when in fact they nearly always make a loss and it is obviously really a hobby but the losses are claimed against tax. Perhaps I should try that one 

It's not an issue for me personally as I deal with kitten buyers in exactly the same way I deal with violin buyers (we sell violins for a living) but I can see why it makes a difference in the case being discussed, so thank you for that information.

Liz


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## havoc

HMRC aren't the only authority which can have an interest and are not normally the one which attempt to cause a problem for hobby breeders. I can't remember the exact 'test' and it is subjective but I think the wording is roughly to do with whether the breeding is coincidental to the normal enjoyment of the animals. What one judge may consider 'coincidental' can well be different to another.


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## jenny armour

Paulamaria said:


> Perhaps not- but I find it even more suspicious to use 'the sale of goods act doesn't apply to me' line unless you're looking for a loophole to get out of something-especially a situation when you cannot supply the goods. I'm sure not all breeders do make a profit, in fact Ive read on here that most say they make a loss if anything! However, she is not an honest breeder like the lovely people who have replied on here saying ethically refunding a deposit is the right thing to do, and nobody on here has said they would use the sale of goods act/private seller loophole to get out of a situation like this as they are all honest and responsible breeders! She, however, is only interested in keeping our money!
> 
> I have emailed the trading standards local to her and so await their reply!
> 
> Thanks again everyone for your advice and help


i know when i have had trouble ie the dreaded double glazing trading standard wouldnt speak to me unless i went thru consumer direct first then if i had no luck with them then i went on to trading standards. consumer direct no is 08454 040506 they should be able to help. when i had to speak to trading standards it was my local office


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## lovemybaileyboo

What a sad situation you are in so sorry for that xx a friend of mine is a bulldog breeder her bulldog had a litter last month which sadly all died she gave all deposits back without a second thought this women just seems very heartless and i would frown upon the kittens being able to get to anything that could harm them while in her care my friend treated her puppies like diamonds after all they were baby and also someone elses babies who expected her to keep them safe for them the mind boggles


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## Paulamaria

Have just had it confirmed by a lawyer specialising in consumer and contract law that this is an open and shut case. Apparently having my receipt will make this pretty definite. I queried this whole sale of goods act/private seller issue, and apparently the SoGA is not even relevant in this case as she has not supplied any goods so is in breach of contract anyway.

I really hate that what was meant to be such a lovely experience has turned into a horrible and bitter battle so needlessly. Neither of us would have to be going through this if she had just done the decent thing straight away.

I have enough stress in my life teaching 30 little ragamuffins every day without a court battle to deal with too!! :-/


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## babycham2002

what a horrible experience for you 
I hope you find your dream kittens/cats soon, I know you dont want to rush into it. But you know, sometime soon :smile5:


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## Paulamaria

Thank you 

I know we will soon, however horrible this has been I'm not going to let it ruin our dream of having our kittens in our new home. I've lived with doggies and puddys all my life and cannot imagine ever not having a best friend that's furry!  All of our pets throughout my whole life have been rescues or strays needing a home, even Charlie and Jack who are in my sig below! and so it's such a shame that my first experience of buying my own kittens has been so awful, but I definitely won't let it put me off!!
I will keep everyone updated on this situation and you'll be the first to know when we take the brave step of trying again once this is all over with  

Xx


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## havoc

> I have enough stress in my life teaching 30 little ragamuffins every day without a court battle to deal with too!! :-/


It's unlikely she'll even fill in and return the claim form. She doesn't have a defence. You apply for judgement by default at the first possible opportunity.

If she does attempt a defence by post it's unlikely she'll turn up - then you get judgement by default.

If it does get as far as a hearing then don't worry. Most small claims hearings happen in small side rooms not huge courtrooms. There will be you, her and an unrobed District Judge and it will be amazingly informal. It won't even feel like you've had your day in court


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## lizward

Paulamaria said:


> I queried this whole sale of goods act/private seller issue, and apparently the SoGA is not even relevant in this case as she has not supplied any goods so is in breach of contract anyway.


O yes, there is that!

Liz


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## lizward

havoc said:


> It's unlikely she'll even fill in and return the claim form. She doesn't have a defence. You apply for judgement by default at the first possible opportunity.
> 
> If she does attempt a defence by post it's unlikely she'll turn up - then you get judgement by default.
> 
> If it does get as far as a hearing then don't worry. Most small claims hearings happen in small side rooms not huge courtrooms. There will be you, her and an unrobed District Judge and it will be amazingly informal. It won't even feel like you've had your day in court


Agree completely - I have been through this procedure five times (as the one making the claim, or speaking for the one making the claim), only one went to a hearing. The more difficult part by far is going to be actually getting the money, of the four cases I won, only one produced the money. One of the others was a business which shut down and disappeared, another was a person who moved house and disappeared, and the other one claimed that everything in the house including the BMWs on the drive belonged to her husband. Mind you, by then she had goodness knows how many claims against her.

Liz


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## havoc

> Mind you, by then she had goodness knows how many claims against her


That's the least satisfying. If you are their first CCJ then you at least have the satisfaction of knowing they won't be able to get credit for 6 years - they won't be able to change their energy supplier, their phone line, their broadband etc. Everyone thinks of the big things like bank loans and mortgages but every little thing is affected these days. It's even become accepted for employers to do a credit check before making a job offer.


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## lizward

havoc said:


> It's even become accepted for employers to do a credit check before making a job offer.


 really? On what grounds?!

Liz


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## babycham2002

lizward said:


> really? On what grounds?!
> 
> Liz


Yes it is quite common now, especially in retail and financial institutions.
Presumably to see if you're going to have your hands in the till 

I had one for my current employer and my SIL even had to PAY for her's with her current employer.
Now that really takes the biscuit


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## kittenshavemittens

lizward said:


> really? On what grounds?!
> 
> Liz


If you want to work for a bank, financial institution, Police or even just security companies, you cannot have CCJ's. They all run credit checks on anyone applying for a job, you have to sign and give them premission to do so, though. It has been like that FOREVER (decade, upon decade, not a new thing).


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## havoc

Or local authority jobs and many, many more which can't possibly be justified. It's now becoming more normal than not - for no good reason other than they can. Credit referencing has become the most misused tool in recent years.


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## messyhearts

I had a credit check for my last job mid-employment, along with everyone else in my office, and we did not handle money or view any details at all aside from names and addresses. Thankfully I had the opportunity to quit soon after...


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## havoc

They couldn't do it without your permission. Why did you agree?


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## claire & the gang

Maybe employers are doing it...so if they can see your on the breadline desperate for a job they can offer less money.

So sorry to read you still havent got your deposit back.....the situation you describe doesn`t sound like a good breeder at all....at the least negligent in care of her kittens. If she has lost 2 kittens from this litter to supposed accidents it doesn`t bear thinking about how many other accidents have happened to animals in her care


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## messyhearts

havoc said:


> They couldn't do it without your permission. Why did you agree?


Fear. Two people lost their job as a result of them too.


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## lizward

On what grounds? This is horrible!

Liz


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## havoc

> On what grounds? This is horrible!


Well here's the thing - there don't have to be any real grounds. The Credit Reference Agencies are unregulated commercial enterprises and they're out of control. The only thing they have to do to abide by the law is keep accurate data on you - and there's plenty of it. Credit checking has become an industry and for that industry to grow it needs new customers all the time. All those adverts offering you 'peace of mind' from Credit Expert and the like - brilliant. You pay them to do their job and confirm all the data they hold on you. Some of the most cynical marketing I've ever seen.

Do you use comparison websites? Have you ever read the T&Cs? Every time you use one you are agreeing to let every one of the companies they bring up in their search results run a credit check on you. Doesn't matter if you take out insurance with them or even if you don't spread the payments - ie apply for credit.


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## AlbertRoss

havoc said:


> Do you use comparison websites? Have you ever read the T&Cs? Every time you use one you are agreeing to let every one of the companies they bring up in their search results run a credit check on you. Doesn't matter if you take out insurance with them or even if you don't spread the payments - ie apply for credit.


This is only true if you ask for quotations. And, even then, it's not usually a full credit check. That will happen should you then try to accept a quotation. It's one of the reasons that my site won't do an automatic enquiry for people looking for Pet Insurance.


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## Paulamaria

Hi all!

Thought I'd post another update as so many of you were so kind and helpful after my original post! Three months on, believe it or not, we haven't seen a penny of our deposit back from the breeder and we are now taking her to court. Hopefully within the next few weeks we should get a date. Her defence was quite unbelievable, stating that she'd always told us that if the kittens died we would have to take replacements. I couldn't believe it when I read it! The whole situation arose because we weren't comfortable with that; if she had at any point said this to us we wouldn't have bought them from her in the first place!! She hasn't seemed to understand this!!!!

On a much happier note, tomorrow we will finally be welcoming into our home the kittens we have wanted for so long, and I am so excited!!! After such an awful experience we have found two gorgeous kittens to give a home to, We have named them Teddy and Lila, and so I will probably be seeking lots of advice over the coming weeks and months!!!


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## happysaz133

God what an awful woman, on so many levels!!! I really hope you get your money back. 

On a happy note, have fun with your kittens


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## kathyj

Was only wondering about you last night, as I was having a quick scan through messages on the forum as had been away over the weekend. 

That breeder is unbelievable, and I wish you every once of luck in taking her to court, and truly hope that the judge declares her guilty. 

And great news about finally getting your two kittens. I bet you are so excited. I am sure we are all eagerly awaiting news of them, and pictures.


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## ChinaBlue

It's awful that you have to take her to court to get your deposit back but great news you have found your new babies! Photos as soon as please!


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## Paddypaws

I think the most important thing here is that you HAVE now managed to find your new kittens and can look forward to many years of joy with them.
I do hope that you can achieve financial resolution through the courts, but personally I would make loud complaints to whatever governing body this 'breeder' is involved with and also _naming and shaming_ on any available platform to stop others being taken in by her.


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## lizward

I'm afraid I suspect the chances of you actually getting the money are not high. The overwhelming majority of people in a situation like this (any situation where they are not certain to win) would pay up long before it got to court IF they had the money to do so. I hope I am wrong though.

Liz


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## PennyGC

As she's working you should be able to get an 'attachment of earnings' which will take the money directly out of her salary should she not pay up. You'll have to give her the opportunity but you can go back to court for this....
the whole thing sounds like a scam to me.....


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## Treaclesmum

Only just seen this thread, but I would suggest that maybe your original breeder (who sounds VERY unscrupulous!!) had actually sold these kittens on to someone else for a higher price, rather than the kittens actually dying... that would explain why she was getting so nasty about a refund, because she had thought she could make more money from the kittens...  Is there any way you could check this out?


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## jenny armour

congratulations on your new arrivals, you so deserve it. i assume you are getting the same breed again?


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## sharonbee

I have only just seen this but I haven't read all the replies, I have just started breeding and only ask for a deposit of £50, non refundable. That is if the buyer just changes her mind. 
If anything happens to the kittens then we would certainly refund the deposit.
You seem like you have been treated badly, and £200 deposit is far too much to have to put down I would think.
Pleased you have since found some new little kittens. Teddy and Lila are lovely names.


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## Bonnie82

sharonbee said:


> I have only just seen this but I haven't read all the replies, I have just started breeding and only ask for a deposit of £50, non refundable. That is if the buyer just changes her mind.
> If anything happens to the kittens then we would certainly refund the deposit.
> You seem like you have been treated badly, and £200 deposit is far too much to have to put down I would think.
> Pleased you have since found some new little kittens. Teddy and Lila are lovely names.


£100 (per kitten) is fairly standard for pedigrees I think, but I agree that if anything happens to the kittens it should certainly be refunded!

To the OP: how are things going, both with the court proceedings and your scrummy new kittens?


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## havoc

> I have just started breeding and only ask for a deposit of £50, non refundable


Has anyone ever been properly tested on this? I don't mean that buyers have just given up but have gone through court and the breeder has won. My sales agreement states that deposits _may_ not be refunded in full on a change of mind as I've always been under the impression I would have to show the extra expense I've been put to as a direct result of a cancellation.


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## sharonbee

Oh thankyou Bonnie, is it really? I felt a bit cheeky asking just £50 but it is nice to know what the standard price is asked for a deposit.


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## Bonnie82

sharonbee said:


> Oh thankyou Bonnie, is it really? I felt a bit cheeky asking just £50 but it is nice to know what the standard price is asked for a deposit.


Yep, it's pretty standard. When I was "shopping around" for my pedigree Siberians, I didn't come across any breeders who charged less than a £100 deposit per kitten.


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## Paulamaria

Hello!!!

Still waiting for court date- had to post something back to court the other day so now just waiting to hear!

Teddy and Lila are absolutely amazing- I'm trying to post pics but need to do it when I can get on a computer as don't think I can do it from my
Phone. They are the most beautiful little bundles of fluff!! They have the most amazing personalities and are so cuddly. They're purrs are like road drills they're so loud!! They have discovered that my bed is far better than the mega expensive- luxury cosy beds I bought them  I haven't stopped cuddling them yet and feel so lucky to have found them- they're perfect!!

I will post photos very soon, and keep you all updated on case!
Xxx


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## Alansw8

Just come across this post and bnot read all of them but my thinking as a small hobby breeder is if i was providing two kittens and then unable to provide them i would refund the deposits as any reputable breeder would.

Was the breeder a show person or just a breeder?

Thats my twopennys worth in on the matter


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## lloyd

i thought my expirence was bad after getting my kitten home and finding out it was in a bad condition. 
feel so sorry for you but you have done the smart thing and you will have your money back in no time.

I hope the woman is banned from having animals or selling them. she needs reporting.


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## Eiserblew

Wow. Just came across this thread, and I am shocked. I guess I shouldn't be - I've heard similar things before. I've even known of breeders who want deposits before the kittens are even born!!

I really hope that this gets resolved for you. It's the principle of the thing more than anything else, and if she's done it to you, she's probably done it to others - and may well still continue to do so. Fingers crossed for a positive result!

I am beginning to think that I am one of a real minority of breeders. I do not take deposits. Never have done, and never will do. I had a couple come and see an older kitten ('Raffi' is now 8 months old) on Thursday. They fell in love with him, and arrange to pick him up on this coming Friday. They wanted to leave a deposit, and I refused, and explained my reasons. I don't agree with deposits. If they have second thoughts, or any doubts or niggles, they may decide to go ahead anyway - despite not being 100% certain. They were happy and left. 

The next day I had an email saying that they had decided that as they had 3 older cats, they feel that a young kitten would be more suitable. Now, I could have taken a deposit, and in this circumstance kept it. It was their decision to pull out, not mine. I would have been better off - but on the flip side, they may have still come on Friday and taken my boy when they weren't 100% certain. I think I made the right decision! 

I don't really understand why breeders take deposits - perhaps to stop timewasters from reserving kittens and letting them down, but I've never had one (these are the first people to 'pull out', and I've been breeding for a number of years - and they were willing to leave a deposit!). I'd rather have a timewaster than a kitten go to a home where the new owner isn't 100% certain about their decision...


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## lloyd

any updates


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## Paulamaria

Hello all,

Sorry for lack of reply, have moved home recently and it's been so busy!!!! Thanks for the recent replies- I really like the post above (sorry I'm useless at this quote thing on an iPhone!). I love the idea that you don't take deposits in case it forces people into a decision that maybe they're not 100% with- I think that's so right. Obviously I can see why people do too, and I was more than happy to pay one for Teddy and Lila, but I really agree with your reasons on it!

Still no update on court really- I drove all the way to Southend for an allocation hearing to find that she hadn't turned up and had written to the judge asking for it to be delayed. No-one bothered to tell me she wouldn't be there before I drove 30 miles to Southend a few days before Christmas! The judge carried on without her and suggested that we go through mediation, which is taking place next week. I'm not too happy really as in my eyes there's nothing to mediate and it should be open and shut, and I won't be 'mediating' anything less than the £200 she owes me!


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## newfiesmum

Paulamaria said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Sorry for lack of reply, have moved home recently and it's been so busy!!!! Thanks for the recent replies- I really like the post above (sorry I'm useless at this quote thing on an iPhone!). I love the idea that you don't take deposits in case it forces people into a decision that maybe they're not 100% with- I think that's so right. Obviously I can see why people do too, and I was more than happy to pay one for Teddy and Lila, but I really agree with your reasons on it!
> 
> Still no update on court really- I drove all the way to Southend for an allocation hearing to find that she hadn't turned up and had written to the judge asking for it to be delayed. No-one bothered to tell me she wouldn't be there before I drove 30 miles to Southend a few days before Christmas! The judge carried on without her and suggested that we go through mediation, which is taking place next week. I'm not too happy really as in my eyes there's nothing to mediate and it should be open and shut, and I won't be 'mediating' anything less than the £200 she owes me!


Well, good for you for keeping this going. She was probably hoping you wouldn't want the hassle and would go away.

But to my cynical little brain I think the whole thing was a load of codswallop. Losing one kitten is bad luck, losing two? No I just don't believe it. Perhaps she was offered more money for the ones set aside for you, but I don't believe they both died. What sort of moron lets kittens get at dishwashing powder?

Good luck with your hearing. I should think you would be glad to see the back of it.


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## Grace_Lily

Really sorry to hear this is still dragging on - must be a constant worry in the back of your mind. Mediation sounds like a cop out to me, what is there to mediate really? I guess there's certain hoops they like to see you jump through first, but does seem like a waste of time.

Good luck with it and keep us updated.


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## kathyj

I really hoped there was going to be some good news here (well relative in view of wht happened), but at least it is still ongoing. Still wishing you the best of luck.


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## Iluvmypets

See it's just me but I would have gone another route. But I'm evil like that.:devil:


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## colliemerles

_hi, just thought i would see if you have any pictures of Lila and Teddy yet, cant wait to see them._


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## debzidoo12

This is awful, i cant believe the cheek of the breeder!! also i think the rspca need to pay her a visit if she cant look after the kittens properly aswell!

so sorry for your sad loss x


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## Ingrid25

that is pathetic!!!!!!!! how the heck can your so called 'breeder' just send you that stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!
i am so sorry for your loss of your little boy and girl, run free kittens...
but its great to hear you found some new kittens, did u end up getting them from a rescue, how old and what breed r they?? cant wait to see piccies!


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## Paulamaria

Hi everyone!

Well finally...a resolution! Mediation took place on Friday and the breeder agreed to give me my £200 back, so am expecting it in my account this week! To be honest, I think this whole saga has been about her trying to delay sending me my money as she can't really afford to (she tried to delay the hearing and the mediation!) as she has probably always known that she's in the wrong!! So finally, it appears I will be able to put this behind me and forget about it!

On a much more positive note, Teddy and Lila (still need to upload pics I know! ) are getting more amazing every day! They're so gorgeous and so loving. They've just been spayed and neutered so theyre currently wearing their little 'hoodies' as we call them! They're still purring just as much thank goodness- they've forgiven me! 

Xxx


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## happysaz133

That is great news!


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## Alaskacat

Excellant news, so glad justice has prevailed, wrong that it's taken so long though. Hugs to Lila and Teddy.


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## kathyj

Well done for not giving up on this. Very pleased for you. And so happy that your two kittens, Teddy and Lila, are doing so well.

Of course, you have to wonder if she has done this to other people - if it was really true that both kittens died, or if it is some shady way to selling kitens to the highest bidder? Either way, not good. Are you going to report her to any authorities, whether it is cat breeding, RSPCA or something else?


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## Bonnie82

Fantastic news - I'm so pleased.


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