# Trancing



## sugarcookie (Mar 2, 2010)

What is everyone's opinion on Trancing? I noticed in some older threads that people seem split on the idea.

I looked into this the other day because it's was a major struggle to trim Ror's nails. I am able to clean his face around his abscess without much trouble, but anything involving the clippers or cleaning his feet invokes a battle.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I use it to clip Leo's nails and do a quick check over that's it because I can feel his heart rate and breathing going so fast. It's not a good thing it stresses them out it's essentially play dead and they get really scared


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> I use it to clip Leo's nails and do a quick check over that's it...
> I can feel his heart rate and breathing going so fast. It's not a good thing it stresses them out -
> it's essentially play dead and they get really scared.


this really puzzles me, nick - 
rabbits have a *resting heart rate* of about 200 beats per minute, so their heart rate is Always Rapid. 
a fast-pulse is normal - panting or obvious distress is something very different.

trancing an animal is a sort of hypnosis - and should not be stressful at all. 
the heart-rate in tranced chickens drops, as in horses - i cannot imagine that bunnies are that different. 
all my best, 
--- terry

PS - 
i have been known to try trancing dogs who are panicking - 
they do not go under as readily or deeply as chickens, but they are less distressed.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

If it's what I'm thinking of it's essentially pinning them on their back which produces a play dead situation to avoid a predator they don't move until you let them up. They get very stressed out. Very different to hypnotising a chicken

Here:




Her bunny is so calm when she's putting him down Leo goes balistic


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> ...it's essentially pinning them on their back which produces a play dead situation to avoid a predator they don't move until you let them up.


AIIIIIII-eeeeee!  that is NOT what i mean by TRANCING, nothing even remotely similar. 
what the H*** is this, *Cesar takes on the Easter-Bunny*!? :skep: good grief. 
nope - definitely *not!* anything alike. (runs off stage...) _i;m outta here..._


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Yeah it is very alpha roll type thing. I only use it for nail trimming because there's a real risk of hurting him if I cut the nails wrong.


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

It should never be done! Its a state of extreme fear in rabbits. They do it to "play dead" to fool a predator into thinking the rabbit is dead and release the grip slightly to let the rabbit bolt to safety at the first chance. Personally I think its a cruel thing to do to a rabbit.


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## sugarcookie (Mar 2, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> AIIIIIII-eeeeee!  that is NOT what i mean by TRANCING, nothing even remotely similar.
> what the H*** is this, *Cesar takes on the Easter-Bunny*!? :skep: good grief.
> nope - definitely *not!* anything alike. (runs off stage...) _i;m outta here..._


I'm confused. If I might ask, what were you thinking of? I didn't know there was another technique besides forcing the "play dead" thing.

Also, in that video, her rabbit is seems calm enough to not need to be "tranced". If I tried to pick mine up like that, he'd kick like he were dying and scratch up my arms.


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## crofty (May 2, 2008)

It's been proven scientifically that rabbits who are put on their backs like this show a huge increase in stress hormones. This is different to a rabbit who chooses to lie on its back - that is an unforced event and entirely different! 

Basically their survival instinct tells them that if they are on their back, they are about to be carried off to be eaten...so they go into a trance-like state (it's known as trancing or tonic immobility). The purpose is so that the predator then loosens its grip, giving the bun a chance to flip and escape quickly. Because it's based on survival instinct, it is very stressful to do this to your bun. I think it can be a useful technique as a one-off but it has been proven that far from being relaxed (even if they appear to be!), rabbits are actually incredibly stressed when they are handled like this and the stress hormones remain high for some time after the event. It's just not good for them and to do it regularly is very unkind to a bun


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

I have always used the bunny trance thing...safely too according to my vet who I showed....to clip nails, give medication and clean and treat wounds, wihout this method I wouldnt have been able to clean goliaths wouns which was life saving at the time....not sure what kind of trance is dangerouse but my buns are safe and ok when in a trance...and again, to cut claws and teeth it's been a huge help to me, can u imagine clipping my buns teeth without it....i can imagine my getting rather scratched and bitten.....and if i let their teeth grow too long which admittedly doesnt happen often thats bad for them too.
All I do is cuddle them and slowly lower them down onto their backs whilst stroking their faces/cheeks and neck...once down and their feet high enough i quickly do what i need to do and reverse the process
Clare...who would never do anything to harm her beloved bunny xx


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## AmyCruick (Jul 20, 2009)

I find that wrapping my buns in a towel calms them down, I think they feel safe cos they are all wrapped up so it might be worth trying that.

The vets tried to tip Alan on his back to take his temp once and he went even more crazy than he was to start with, I'm not looking forward to nail trim time but the towel and plenty of patience has always worked for me in the past.

p.s - I don't cover the head just wrap their bodies in it


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

The towel worked really well with my other buns and I would use this before any kind of sedation such as trancing... but dolly didn't like it one bit, maybe because she's not used to being even so much as in a cage.., and at 15 lbs already not fully grown I'm not arguing with her lol
Clare xx


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

AmyCruick said:


> I find that wrapping my buns in a towel calms them down, I think they feel safe cos they are all wrapped up so it might be worth trying that.
> 
> The vets tried to tip Alan on his back to take his temp once and he went even more crazy than he was to start with, I'm not looking forward to nail trim time but the towel and plenty of patience has always worked for me in the past.
> 
> p.s - I don't cover the head just wrap their bodies in it


This is how I do it and how my vet advices too when they become stressed when trying to cut nails or see teeth. My vet calls it "bunny burrito". I would never ever even think of trancing a rabbit.

I did used to carry Sophie around like a baby in my arms but that was her choice and she was never tranced. She would still have her head up looking around at everything. Its just how she liked to be held from a baby and would also mean I had one hand free.


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## frags (Feb 5, 2009)

I trance buns  i know some have a different opinion on this and i dont judge people on there opinions, but heres mine  

If a bun is tranced 'properly' from an early age it gets used to it, it knows its not something to be scared of, its all about how they are held and also a slight pressure put on there shoulder bone (noooo not hard just a touch) helps.

I trance giants and if they was scared believe me i wouldnt be able to hold them as they would just flip out and bite me  but they dont  ...... YET! 

If you dont know how to do it properly then dont attempt it! It can cause more harm than good x


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## helebelina (Nov 11, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> AIIIIIII-eeeeee!  that is NOT what i mean by TRANCING, nothing even remotely similar.
> what the H*** is this, *Cesar takes on the Easter-Bunny*!? :skep: good grief.
> nope - definitely *not!* anything alike. (runs off stage...) _i;m outta here..._


What were you thinking of then? I just hold my buns on their back, the way you hold a baby when I'm clipping their nails or cleaning their bottoms . Is this really stressing them out?  I constantly stroke their head with my free hand and talk to them calmy. Wouldn't want to stress my buns but it's the only way I can clip their claws and it's not that often. Am worried now I've been stressing my poor little buns :frown2:


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## frags (Feb 5, 2009)

helebelina said:


> What were you thinking of then? I just hold my buns on their back, the way you hold a baby when I'm clipping their nails or cleaning their bottoms . Is this really stressing them out?  I constantly stroke their head with my free hand and talk to them calmy. Wouldn't want to stress my buns but it's the only way I can clip their claws and it's not that often. Am worried now I've been stressing my poor little buns :frown2:


Not all buns will get stressed by this hun, ok my theory....
Yes in the wild they will play dead and are high pray animals but domestic buns are not wild and dont have many wild instincts, i can chase my lot round the garden without them getting stressed but chase a wild bun and they will be stressed and the stress can kill them.
I think wild buns and domestic buns are very different in everyway.

If your buns dont seem stressed when doing this and are used to it then so be it, its a personal choice and a personal opinion that they all get stressed. Some do some dont IMO.


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## VampiricLust (Mar 3, 2008)

Rep to Kammie and Crofty.

Completely agree with their views. (Saved me having to type it!!)


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Ive never seen any reason to do this.

Nail clipping can be done without sticking a rabbit on its back.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

frags said:


> I trance buns  i know some have a different opinion on this and i dont judge people on there opinions, but heres mine
> 
> If a bun is tranced 'properly' from an early age it gets used to it, it knows its not something to be scared of, its all about how they are held and also a slight pressure put on there shoulder bone (noooo not hard just a touch) helps.
> 
> ...


you put it better than me frags...Dolly is huge.not fat, very trim but very big and i couldn't force her to do anything..she willingly goes on her back ..I just keep her there....not for long....and it takes not even a quarter of the time it would if i did it all without trancing....she'd be in a lot more stress if i had to fight with her xx


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

I always find getting someone to hold your rabbit one hand firmly over their hips and one hand just behind the ears over the shoulders allows me full access to my rabbits feet for nail clipping. it doesn't stress them at all and this is the same way every vet I have ever used 5 in total has done it.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Clare7435 said:


> punctuation + *bold* added -
> I have always used the bunny trance thing...
> safely too according to my vet who I showed - to clip nails, give medication and clean and treat wounds.
> without this method I wouldnt have been able to clean goliaths wounds which was life saving at the time. not sure what kind of trance is dangerous but my buns are safe and ok when in a trance.
> ...


that sounds Much-More like what i did, clare! :thumbup: 
maybe we should use another term for it, i was not aware of the pinning technique before (and frankly i would never recommend it, it sounds extremely stressful even when done correctly).

trancing a chicken is not at all traumatic or scary, and i never thought the term could be used for a scary process that makes the animal feel so threatened that they shut-down.

** tonic immobility ** like that shown by Hognose snakes + VA-opossums, both N-American species, is not conscious or voluntary behavior, it is automatic; however, if the animal is repeatedly triggered, over + over, and NOT harmed, they begin to learn 
Not To Do So. 
IOW - a Hognose-snake in captivity will gradually UNlearn their instinctive, automatic play-dead, as will a captive-opossum.

but i would not personally want to cause that behavior in a domestic-bunny; its too stressful, and rabbits with their twitchy CNS 
+ rapid-pulse are already risky critters.

JMO + IME; all my best, 
--- terry


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## frags (Feb 5, 2009)

Wow only just watched the link LOL
Thats not what i do with my buns!!! That looks awful and the rabbit looked dead!!!

OK if thats trancing then thats not what i do lol


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Thats the whole point it's playing dead. How do you do it? I'll have to try some of these other techniques on Leo he needs his nails done


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## sugarcookie (Mar 2, 2010)

frags said:


> Wow only just watched the link LOL
> Thats not what i do with my buns!!! That looks awful and the rabbit looked dead!!!
> 
> OK if thats trancing then thats not what i do lol


Every video/technique I've ever seen looks like the video. I'm still unsure by what the other idea of trancing is.

I wrap mine in a towel and have to have someone else help me. It's the only way I have enough hands to secure my bun and take care of what I need to.


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## crofty (May 2, 2008)

You cant avoid that its scientifically proven to stress buns out even though they look chilled out 

I wont do it to any of mine but i do understand some people have had to use it for medical reasons, but i think it shouold be avoided. I dont undertsand why people would want to cause their buns stress that could be avoided?


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> that sounds Much-More like what i did, clare! :thumbup:
> maybe we should use another term for it, i was not aware of the pinning technique before (and frankly i would never recommend it, it sounds extremely stressful even when done correctly).
> 
> trancing a chicken is not at all traumatic or scary, and i never thought the term could be used for a scary process that makes the animal feel so threatened that they shut-down.
> ...


hmm...How about Chilling the bunny ...I'm glad to hear what I do with Dolly is different to this bunny trance thing though, I would hate to think people thought I'd harm Dolly in any way.
She does look similar to the one in the link when she's layed down, I couldnt hear sound though so I havent a clue how she did it to the bun in the vid.Dolly tends to roll on her back for a belly rub, a little like the pooches do lol...so I usually take it from there and she's chilled out in seconds..she also seems to enjoy being dog like and having her tum rubbed because i get a face lick fr that one...how lucky is that :thumbup:


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

sugarcookie said:


> Every video/technique I've ever seen looks like the video. I'm still unsure by what the other idea of trancing is.
> 
> I wrap mine in a towel and have to have someone else help me. It's the only way I have enough hands to secure my bun and take care of what I need to.


It's always good when you can do this as opposed to any other method...I did try it this way with Dolly..but again....not too easy with a Bun the size of dolly..who also appears to have no fear as she is currently rolling around on the floor playing with Penny the pooch lol


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## sugarcookie (Mar 2, 2010)

Clare7435 said:


> It's always good when you can do this as opposed to any other method...I did try it this way with Dolly..but again....not too easy with a Bun the size of dolly..who also appears to have no fear as she is currently rolling around on the floor playing with Penny the pooch lol


Yeah, he's still a bit feisty, though. He's a youngin' still, so I'm hoping he calms down a bit as he gets older. Maybe I'm totally off, though, haha.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

sugarcookie said:


> Yeah, he's still a bit feisty, though. He's a youngin' still, so I'm hoping he calms down a bit as he gets older. Maybe I'm totally off, though, haha.


Bunnys tend to chill out as they got older...One of my older buns Loui was so chilled out I thought he'd been smoking something naughty lol...he was practically drawing his pension when he eventally passed away...10 or 11 I think he was...and he only died because some idiot let all my rabbits out...instinct took over all the others and they ran into hiding, but because Loui was so tame and friendly he wouldnt have done that he'd have gone for a fuss not realising that they where evil ba*****s and they killed him...talk about angry...that wasnt the word. So it is good for them to have some degree of a feisty nature I suppose, it keeps them safe from harm.


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## Lapin (Mar 20, 2010)

I agree with Crofty

Clicky on here:

Tonic immobility (TI) is a transitory and reversible state of profound motor inhibition that can be induced in susceptible species


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## crofty (May 2, 2008)

Lapin said:


> I agree with Crofty
> 
> Clicky on here:
> 
> Tonic immobility (TI) is a transitory and reversible state of profound motor inhibition that can be induced in susceptible species


Great link, rep for you


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

wow that link is really well researched


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## sugarcookie (Mar 2, 2010)

Wow, great link. That really has all the answers, lol.


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## jaxb05 (Apr 12, 2009)

So - what is the best way to clip nails or give medicine. IS turning the rabbit on it's back going to induce a trance? I was told my my vet to put Pickles onto her back to calm her down when brushing her - I guess that was the wrong information!! I will be telling him.


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## sugarcookie (Mar 2, 2010)

I would guess so. My vet didn't mention anything. For whatever reason, my bunny doesn't struggle with him so much.


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