# Got 2 new goldfish today :)



## Jackiiboii12 (Jun 28, 2014)

So, I'm an experienced pet owner going to study animal welfare in college. I went out today and brought 2 common goldfish, they're in a plastic tank with quite natural white red and brown gravel. They have 1 plastic plant and 1 real plant the waters been in their for over 24 hours with chlorine/amonia degrading liquid. I've had experience with fish where i kept a 50 gallon tropical fish tank for over a year but sadly had to give them away due to not being able to afford the water refills etc. So, my goldfish have been in the tank for about and hour and half and are swimming around, when should I feed them ? should i wait a few hours ? thanks


----------



## JessIncaFCR (Oct 1, 2012)

Have you cycled the tank properly? Are you checking the water parameters?

Common goldfish can grow to be a foot long and produce a lot of waste. 

I am afraid to say that a plastic tank isn't going to hold them for very long, and I would imagine it's under 30L. 

You need to upgrade to around a 50 gallon as an absolute minimum with a very good filter and regular maintenance if you wish to keep them in a tank rather than a pond.

Common goldfish do best in ponds due to their sheer size.

Sorry if this isn't what you wanted to hear.


----------



## catpud (Nov 9, 2013)

Give them 24 hours to settle in a darkened tank, then lights on next day and feed a small amount is how I normally work it. I think it causes less stress. 

The thing I would be worried about though - 2 common goldfish in a plastic tank may not be ideal. How big is it? Common goldfish grow very big and should really be kept in a pond. Fancy goldfish need very large tanks. Being kept in small tanks makes them become stunted - their insides keep growing but their outsides don't which can cause some major issues I am sure you can imagine.

They are also very messy fish, ammonia and nitrite can build up very quickly in a small tank. 

People say things like "my goldfish lived 6 years in a bowl" but when you think that they can live for 25 years with the right care you can see why that is actually not so brilliant. 

(Sorry if that sounded like criticising, I really don't mean to, it's just that I am sure you like your fish very much and want what is best for them in the long term)


----------



## Jackiiboii12 (Jun 28, 2014)

I have a pond, and when they get a bit bigger they can go in that as the fish in the pond started off smaller then them and are now about 5 inches. I don't know the exact size of the tank but it's not small and is about 13 inches long.


----------



## catpud (Nov 9, 2013)

Are these little ones at a size where they would fit into the mouths of the bigger ones? If they would be safe, I would say move them ASAP, but if not then it makes sense to keep them separate as you are doing 

I would think in a 13 inch tank - with the general rule being length of tank 6 x length of fish (this is general and by no means and "end of" thing, but I find it works well for fry) then you might want to move the fish into their pond when they reach about 2 inches.

As I said, with the feeding issue - I find that keeping them in an unlit tank for 24 hours, then lights on and feeding a small amount works well in terms of helping them settle in. 

Check on the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels regularly (you are likely already doing this anyway, but though I would add that in) I don't know if you cycled the tank already with a bottle of ammonia? if not, or even if you did, as it's still useful, could you put a bit of the filter media from your pond filter into the tank filter? It helps speed up the cycle because all of the bacteria you want is already there and helps the levels more.


----------



## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

I'm afraid 13 inches is small for goldfish, but its good you have a pond for them to move into. I'd leave them to settle today and start feeding tomorrow morning.


----------



## Jackiiboii12 (Jun 28, 2014)

I kept tropical fish in a 50 gallon fish tank for about over a year so I know about nitrate, ammonia etc issues that's fine. I've kept the tank sitting with water for over 24 hours before getting the fish, I also added Weekly cleaner which is a liquid that degrades nitrate amonnia and can be added to water with fish without harming them and it works instantly. When the fish are bigger they will be getting a bigger tank or going into the pond. They're about an inch at the moment so not very big. Do you guys have some tips ? Last time I kept goldfish was when I was 5 years old and my mum got me 3 goldfish in a tank they lasted for about 6-7 years I can't remember. Thanks


----------



## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

With respect, what you describe is not cycling a tank. If you kept tropical fish you will know about cycling water with ammonia before introducing fish, so I wonder why you haven't done this......


----------



## Jackiiboii12 (Jun 28, 2014)

I kept tropical fish, yes. I didn't know that at this stage being my new goldfish are not very old do not need to be blown across the tank by a filter. I've done 2 years of animal welfare training/voluntary work. On that training I learnt to look after fish most of it was long talks and physical work 1 of the first things we were taught about is keeping fish and their needs etc. Goldfish prefer calm waters that are planted. Yes, when they get a bit bigger i will get a bigger tank for them but for now they are too small for filters. When they do get Bigger I will get a glass tank at least 50 gallon with a filter etc.


----------



## catpud (Nov 9, 2013)

Unfortunately leaving the tank water for 24 hours doesn't really cycle a tank - it ensures that equipment is working properly, lets some of the silt settle and makes sure the tank is not leaking, but doesn't go any way towards building up the bacterial colony that processes the toxins (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate)

I also don't find the "bottled bacteria" actually does much, if anything, at all.

I don't wish to state the obvious again, so sorry if you are aware of this already 

Cycling a tank requires an ammonia source. There are two ways of doing this - the "fish in" cycle which is not recommended these days, and then using an artificial ammonia source which is the recommended way. 

The recommended way involves dosing the tank (no fish) with bottles ammonia to usually about 4ppm, as the bacteria grows (which may take a couple of months) the ammonia begins to decrease. You continue topping up after your daily testing to 4ppm. Once the ammonia is decreasing to zero over a 24hr period you need to still keep an eye on ammonia but also start looking at your nitrites, which again should decrease to 0 in 24 hours once your cycle is working as it should. 

Nitrates should be kept an eye on and the water changes out as this goes over about 20.

At the moment you are doing a fish in cycle which is difficult, often requires daily or twice daily water changes and can cause issues for the fish. 

Please take a bit of media out of the pond filter and place in the tank filter to make this easier on you and your fish, or if possible transfer them to the pond.

Edited to add: they are not too small for filters at 1 inch, if you are worried then setting up a sponge filter will help. (no holes for fish to be sucked into), these are normally driven by an air pump, without one water quality will decrease quickly


----------



## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Sorry, but it doesn't sound like you understand how the nitrogen cycle works as your tank will definitely not have cycled in 24 hours  . Best thing you can do is either return the fish or introduce them to your pond asap, as they will start suffering very quickly in an uncycled tank.

I don't understand how they can be 'too small' for a filter? I've had very tiny fancy goldfish in my 500L tank and they had no problems with the filter...


----------



## Jackiiboii12 (Jun 28, 2014)

Thanks, catpud. I don't think their big enough to go into the pond just yet we have carp in the pond that are years old and would be able to swallow the goldfish. The tank does have a live plant in it which helps.


----------



## Jackiiboii12 (Jun 28, 2014)

Okay, I don't know an awful lot on the nitrogen cycle but the liquid I added does most of it. The water has been treated. The fish have been in the tank for about 3 and a half hours and are swimming around happily. Also I did put in my post it was over 24 hours


----------



## catpud (Nov 9, 2013)

This is the type of filter that I use for fry (although admittedly I am talking about the fry of little fish anyway) so it would be perfectly safe, they may even be able to cope with a small normal filter.

mini Biochemical SPONGE FILTER - active bacteria pump Media Block Foam BIO air | eBay

If you can get a bit of media from the pond filter, and even just place it in the tank weighted down, together with one of these sponge filters, you will find the water quality is more stable 

The plant will do a little towards helping, but I wouldn't rely on that alone


----------



## Jackiiboii12 (Jun 28, 2014)

Thanks catpud, should i order one of those filters ? When i mean my fish are too small for a filter i mean the big buzzing filters that shoot out water. I'll order one of those filters catpud if needed.


----------



## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

Jacki, it feels as though you're not hearing what's being said. Of course, that's your choice, but is a bit odd when you say you've come here for advice. If you're not prepared to take the fish back, or put them in a friend's cycled tank until yours is ready, please please please do daily water changes until your ammonia test kit (you've got one, I imagine) shows you that the ammonia has peaked and fallen. Changing a third of the water each day should be sufficient.


----------



## catpud (Nov 9, 2013)

I would personally, in my experience even with tiny fry it is necessary to have some sort of filter running.  

Doesn't necessarily have to be that particular one, but the same sort of design, you will need a small air pump to power it which are sold separately, but these can be purchased quite cheaply (about £5 - they are the sort you buy to power the air stones)


----------



## Jackiiboii12 (Jun 28, 2014)

Okay okay, blaisenhempshire. I have a testing kit and i used it before adding the fish, okay. I am prepared to listen and take in advice. The tank is cycle enough it's been left for over 24 hours which i clearly stated in my post. I have done animal welfare training and my sister did it for years, she lives with me and would not have let me buy the fish if the tank was not ready for them. I believe the tank is cycled enough.


----------



## Jackiiboii12 (Jun 28, 2014)

Thanks catpud, i'll get on it now.  I'm sure my local pet shop has one it doesn't close till 6:30pm and it's 3pm so i'll rush down.


----------



## Phoenix24 (Apr 6, 2013)

So from what I can tell you are keeping 2 goldfish in a very small tank that is uncycled and doesn't even have a filter. Good luck with that, i'm fairly sure they will be dead in a few weeks (if they even last that long).

Everyone else has already given you the advice you need, but it doesn't sound much like you want to hear it. Quoting the courses you have done does not make you experienced in keeping fish, either. I have a doctorate level qualification in zoology but that doesn't make me an expert on fishkeeping.

Heed what has been said: You need a much bigger tank (150L for a single fancy goldfish, add 50L per extra fish; only a pond will do for a comet-shaped goldfish). The tank needs to be cycled first. Filters are never optional. If you have the correct size tank with the correct size filter then flow will not be a problem. External filters have a much gentler flow for their filtration capacity than internal filters (because they are essentially a siphon - with a pump).

And as for leaving the water for 24 hours and adding a water conditioner... does diddly squat to help! There will be no bacteria to break down the toxic wastes in the water (they take up to 6 weeks to grow), and the water conditioner is only active for 24 hours. You would have to manually change the water in the tank every 24 hours, which is time consuming and unnecessary if you have the tank set up properly.

We on here are only too willing to give any advice we can, but its only good if you can listen to it.


----------



## Phoenix24 (Apr 6, 2013)

Jackiiboii12 said:


> Okay okay, blaisenhempshire. I have a testing kit and i used it before adding the fish, okay. I am prepared to listen and take in advice. The tank is cycle enough it's been left for over 24 hours which i clearly stated in my post. I have done animal welfare training and my sister did it for years, she lives with me and would not have let me buy the fish if the tank was not ready for them. I believe the tank is cycled enough.


This is NOT cycling. Cycling is using an ammonia source to grow the bacteria that break it down. Once those bacteria have grown then the ammonia is broken down into nitrite. Then bacteria grow that break down nitrite into nitrate. Only when all these bacteria are grown and breaking down the ammonia and nitrite is the cycle complete.

Fishless cycling uses bottled ammonia to grow the bacteria. Ammonia is toxic to fish and builds up very quickly in an uncycled/unfiltered tank. The nitrite which it is broken down into is also highly toxic (and will kill a fish in 48 hours). Nitrite is broken down to nitrates which are much less toxic.

A typical fishless cycle can take between 2-6 weeks, depending on if you are able to 'seed' the bacteria from a live filter colony (or a bottle, but those are typically unreliable sources) - with no seeding material its more like 10 weeks if it even starts at all.

Putting the fish in and hoping for the best is very much frowned upon because essentially its cruel. Symptoms range from gasping and hanging at the surface, listlessness, darting around, blackened gills, white patches (ammonia burns) and generally poor condition. Even if the fish survive the damage done to them by the toxins is long lasting, shortens their lives and makes them more susceptible to infections.

Alas goldfish are not only the messiest fish (with all the ammonia they produce) but are just not as hardy as they once were. Once upon a time goldfish (somehow) may have survived being stuck in a tiny fishbowl for all of its miserable life, horribly stunted and goodness knows what else, but now a goldfish will not tolerate anything but the best conditions. If they survive the cycling they will probably die in a year from complications from stunting - and its no good starting them off in a small tank and then upgrading, because by then the damage is already done.

I think its time you and your sister updated your knowledge of fishkeeping.


----------



## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

It might also be worth stating here that the idea that fish grow only to the size of their container is misleading. As has been stated, their growth IS stunted, but that is only external. Internally their organs continue to grow :-( I don't think I need to spell out what that means for the poor fish


----------



## Jackiiboii12 (Jun 28, 2014)

Okay, you all don't need to be rude. I understand i should have done more etc. But you don't need to be nasty/rude i'll sort it.


----------



## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

That's brilliant Jacki  Have I been rude? I don't think so, but if it feels that way to you I apologise.


----------



## Jackiiboii12 (Jun 28, 2014)

I'm easily hurt, I care for my animals and you guys to me anyway were making it sound like I had not thought for my pets welfare and like i don't care about them. I care a terrible lot for animals and i've kept animals for years and absolutely love them blooming hell my tarantular is allowed on my bed. I'll make sure the fish get into a suitable environment.


----------



## JessIncaFCR (Oct 1, 2012)

Jackiiboii12 said:


> Okay, you all don't need to be rude. I understand i should have done more etc. But you don't need to be nasty/rude i'll sort it.


No one's being rude to you - everyone's trying to help you


----------



## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

I think tarantulas are SO cool


----------



## Jackiiboii12 (Jun 28, 2014)

I love tarantulars, i've had my stan for 5 years here he is sorry my cameras not so good.


----------



## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

Do you have to keep him in a heated tank? And what does he eat? Do tarantulas bite?

Sorry for all the questions; as you can tell I don't know much about them!


----------



## Jackiiboii12 (Jun 28, 2014)

Tarantulars depending on their species have to be kept in a heated tank, stanleys kept in a heated tank and i have to closely make sure it stays dry and warm with low humidity as hes type of tarantular don't require a lot of humidity. Most tarantulars can bite, somre worse then others luckily stanley is a chilean rose hair hes docile and calm but has the ability to bite although it wouldn't be very bad. Some tarantulars cannot be handled such as the orange bamboon. Tarantulars eat locusts crickets etc and would eat a mice but feeding mice is not recommended. Some spiders mainly flick hairs that are sharp enough to jab through the skin, stanley can do this but it wouldn't harm unless they go in the eye.


----------



## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

Thank you  Like so many creatures, clearly more complex than at first sight!


----------



## Jackiiboii12 (Jun 28, 2014)

Tarantulars in my opinion are great pets. I had stanley when he was just about 1 and a half centimetres now hes 5 inches.


----------



## Fishyfins (Feb 28, 2009)

Hey there!

Firstly, dont worry about getting things a little wrong at first! Believe me, you're not the first, and you certainly wont be the last. The problem with fishkeeping is it is far more complex than people realize, and certain fish species (mostly goldfish) have some very specific requirements that are usually not met. During the 60s, people were mad on goldfish, and there were many lies and tall-tales spread about them by bad retailers in order to sell more of them. Over the decades, these lies have grown and spread, and are now what people believe to be fact, even the people in the "welfare" business. Fishkeeping forums such as this have to deal with this a lot, and some people can get a little worked up over it and come off a little wrong. It doesn't help that on the internet, you cant see peoples faces, so you can never be sure of motive behind what they are saying. But im sure no one here is trying to offend or belittle you, we simply want to help you do what is best for the fish, which im sure is what you also want, being a responsible pet owner. So dont worry about it, just listen to what we say, and we can fix things for you  remember: its not you're fault, and none of what we say is meant to offend!

Now, with that in mind, to business!

Firstly, the tank you describe is, has been mentioned, simply too small for even a single goldfish to live in happily. Common goldfish can easily grow to over a foot long, and live for over 25 years in ideal conditions! All animals have the right to a suitable environment, even fish (animal welfare act 2006). For fancy goldfish, this would be a minimum tank size of 100L (about) for the first fish, with 50L extra for each added fish. For common goldies, double that figure!
Now, you may have heard that fish "grow to the size of the tank"? IE, those kept in small tanks stay small. Now, there is some slight truth here. Many fish have the ability to excrete a hormone at certain times that stops them growing. In the wild, some fish live in areas that experience flooding and drought, and these fish can sometimes find themselves in small isolated pools of quickly evaporating water. It is at these times that the hormone is released. This stops them growing too big for their little pool (meaning more oxygen and less waste). HOWEVER it is only supposed to be a temporary thing. The hormone simply stops their "outside" from growing. Their internal organs continue to grow at the normal rate. If the growth is stunted for long periods, then the internal organs grow too big, and end up rupturing, leading to a very nasty death for the poor fish, usually at a very young age. 
In an aquarium that is too small, this hormone is obviously released, and the fish becomes stunted. Then, if they are not moved to bigger accommodation quickly enough, they end up rupturing, and die. This is why fish in small tanks never live for more than a few years. Its not a nice way to go! And sadly, this starts as soon as they are put into the tank, so they really need to be kept in big tanks from the very start, as there is no way of knowing when the damage is done!

Fish are also waste machines! And goldfish are some of the worst offenders! Even when small, they need very large and efficient filters that can tackle the waste. If you have been told that small goldfish dont need filters, or dislike lots of water movement, then you were told wrong. Wild goldfish live in quite fast flowing streams. This is why they have evolved a very streamlined, torpedo like shape - So they can easily swim in the strong currents. Even at a young age, they will benefit from good strong filters and water flow, and there is no need to keep them in quieter tanks.

Now, the tank was only set up for 24 hours prior to adding fish, correct? Again, it has been said, but this is far from ideal. Here is a quick explaination of how filters work: Fish produce liquid waste in the form of AMMONIA. this ammonia is eaten by bacteria within the filter, that excrete NITRITE. This nitrite is then eaten by more bacteria in the filter, that excrete NITRATE. Ammonia and nitrite are toxic, but nitrate is perfectly harmless, and is easily removed via water changes. Now, when you first add a fish to the tank, there will be no bacteria to eat this waste. waste will then accumulate in the tank, and lead to the fish being burned and poisoned by the toxic ammonia. This leads to stress, and often, death. Even if the death is not immediate, the ammonia can destroy the fish's immune system, leaving them susceptible to infections and other nasties later on. This is obviously something we want to avoid.
To do this, we cycle the tank BEFORE adding fish. this requires adding this nice bacteria to the filter and letting it grow. There are several "bacteria in a bottle" products available, but they are dubiously useful. If you know someone who already has a freshwater fishtank (either tropical or coldwater), then the best thing to do would be to get some of their filter material and either put it in your own filter, or squeeze/wash into your tank. it will cloud the water, but all that is good bacteria that will live in your filter. However, with no fish in there, we need to feed the bacteria, and they feed in ammonia, which we can add to help. I wont explain the full process here. Instead, i will leave you the following link, which takes you through the full process in an easy to understand way!

How to Do a Fishless Cycle: 9 Steps - wikiHow

So that is how goldfish really need to be cared for. Big tanks, big filters, and left for at least 3 or 4 weeks to cycle before adding fish! Anything less than this, and you are not providing your fish with the most ideal environment. Obviously, up until now, you were unaware of the needs of these animals, having been fed the lies so common in the trade. As i have said, this is not your fault! And you should not feel guilty! But now that we have told you how to correctly care for the fish, then i hope you listen and make the changes needed 

For now, with the fish being in such a small, unfiltered tank, then i would either take them back to the shop and start again, find them larger accommodation for the time being whilst you get a bigger tank cycled for them, or do frequent water changed to try and keep the toxins in the water down (i would think 50% of the water daily) whilst finding them and cycling a bigger tank!

I hope this has been of help to you, and i wish you the best of luck in getting back on the right track with your fish  if you need anything, just post on here, and we will do our best to help ^^


----------



## Fishyfins (Feb 28, 2009)

And just to weigh in with the tarantula talk. My 80 year old grandma has a tarantula as a pet. She adores it! Ive never kept one myself, but i do enjoy watching/holding hers when im around. She has one of its moults reserved on her mantlepiece, and loves scaring her guests with it XD

...i have an odd grandma!


----------



## Jackiiboii12 (Jun 28, 2014)

Thanks FishyFins, That answers was fantastic and much appreciated. Lol, i love tarantulars, your grandma sounds awesome.


----------



## Jackiiboii12 (Jun 28, 2014)

Also, Fishyfins what size tank would you recommend ?


----------



## Phoenix24 (Apr 6, 2013)

Fishyfins said it all, but I would definitely recommend a starting tank size of 150L for a single fancy - if you can. The larger the better, and starting big means you won't have to upgrade later on. What shape are the fish? Are they round-bodied fancies or comet-shaped? The latter will definitely have to be re-homed to a pond or taken back to the store.

And I apologise if I came off rude in my last posts, as others have said we are only trying to help, and sometimes its hard to judge if people asking for help on here genuinely want to get the advice they are being given (we have had people who even outright reject the fact that goldfish cannot live in a bowl - very frustrating!). I have no doubt you want to do the best for your fish, and hopefully with a bit of preparation (ok a lot  ) you can have happy healthy goldfish that live to a ripe old age of 25 and grow to the monster size they should be 

Take a look on ebay for the large tanks - there are lots on there of a good size that are reasonably priced, and often some with all the equipment you need (sometimes they even come with fish). The only hitch is most of the time you have to collect them yourself, so be prepared for that and make sure you check where the seller is. I got my last tank off ebay and am very happy with it - came with a stand and all the decor too!

Otherwise some aquarium only stores do monthly deals, or have budget ranges. Its best to shop around a little until you see the right one for you. I've used seapets before now and they often have tanks with a free cabinet offer - which is ideal because with a large tank you really need a proper stand, and the cabinets look nice and can store everything you need (including the external filter). Other people may recommend other online suppliers, but here is the link to seapets to give you an idea:

http://www.seapets.co.uk/products/aquarium-supplies/

Your shopping list is also going to need the following: Seachem Prime water conditioner (by far the best you can buy (for many reasons) and very economical for the price), the API master test kit (one of the better liquid water test kits) and a bottle of Jeyes Kleenoff household ammonia (for the fishless cycle). If you cannot get a squeeze of filter bacteria and must have bottled bacteria, i've found seachem stability to be half decent. Others may have other recommendations.


----------



## Jackiiboii12 (Jun 28, 2014)

I've brought a new tank, 150 litres. I also got a new filter that and the tank cost a lot of money. I have also brought a few live plants for the tank and their living in tub of water at the moment.


----------



## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

I know it can be expensive but your fish will thank you for it. Am I remembering rightly that you have 2 commons and are planning on moving them to your pond when they're a bit bigger? What will your plans be for the tank after that, or don't you know yet?


----------



## Jackiiboii12 (Jun 28, 2014)

When i move them to my pond with this new tank as it's big and a lovely glass tank will probably get a heater and buy honey gouramis. I love tropical fish I had loads of Honey gouramis for years and my brother has them now as i had to give them away sadly.


----------



## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Honey gouramis are lovely and very underrated imo - the colouration they develop under the right conditions is just stunning


----------



## Jackiiboii12 (Jun 28, 2014)

I know, i love them. I miss mine terribly.


----------



## Fishyfins (Feb 28, 2009)

I love Honey Gourami! I used to have a couple of pairs in a quiet community tank. They used to breed like rabbits! The males when in breeding colours are stunning little fish. They never show their true colours in breeders tanks, so they are really underrated


----------

