# Thinking about offering your dog at Stud?



## petforum

If you are thinking about offering your dog at stud, we have created a useful article for you to read below which will give you all the facts :

Offering your dog at stud - Pet Encyclopedia

Thanks
Mark


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## reena

To be used for stud your dog needs to be ALC registered and he should already have his Ch title.They most likey are a few tests that should be done to make sure he is free from genetic defects. Hip displasia would be an example but this veries from breed to breed so find out what your breed needs to be tested for.
Once your dog has completed his Ch title you will have meet many other people who own your breed and some of them will want to use your dog for stud if they feel he will complement their female.
You do not pay vet bills for the female and you charge a fee usually equal to the price of a puppy or you get pick of the litter.
If your dog is not AkC registered you do not have much of a stud prospect and if he is not shown and proven to be breeding quality he is not really worth much as a stud except to someone who is breeding dogs for profit.
He is a nice looking dog.
-------------
Reena

Guaranteed ROI


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## ALLARNICE BULLDOGS

hi if you have a pedigree dog he needs to be kc registered and not akc thanks


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## tashi

ALLARNICE BULLDOGS said:


> hi if you have a pedigree dog he needs to be kc registered and not akc thanks


hi we do have members from over the water as well


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## SIMON007

hi just joined 

so still not sure where to post messages , but i have 11 month british bulldog i would
like to put to stud , not sure how old he has to be and dose he need medical, thanks


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## SIMON007

ALLARNICE BULLDOGS said:


> hi if you have a pedigree dog he needs to be kc registered and not akc thanks


what age dose a dog have to be, to put to stud


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## SiriusDesign

I have stud dogs in miniature Schnauzers, they are mating since 8 months without any troubles. The dog to be offered for stud must be really first class dog fulling the standard and should have some show prices, that the breeders will find him. You should also make eye check - if it's problem by your breed or hips RTG, check the health side.

The system of offering dog for mating is working like any other bussiness - I know the word shouldn't be used in dog breeding, but the way is the same - you must make big advert and have one of the best to be succesfull. I'm showing my dogs all the time to make them more interesting and show them to breeders, we are buing the best bloodlines all over the world to keep interesting stuff. So, if you want to offer the boy for stud you must do a lot for it that he will be used. Because breeders want something special for their girls...


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## likwidgirl2k3

_*Hi all,

I would like to offer my gorgeous golden retriever as a stud but not sure how to start or where to look for a bitch to mate him with. He is kc registered and fully vaccinated and is 5yrs 6mths old. Could anyone offer any advice?*_

:001_rolleyes:


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## tashi

likwidgirl2k3 said:


> _*Hi all,
> 
> I would like to offer my gorgeous golden retriever as a stud but not sure how to start or where to look for a bitch to mate him with. He is kc registered and fully vaccinated and is 5yrs 6mths old. Could anyone offer any advice?*_
> 
> :001_rolleyes:


Probably a little bit old to start with him now in all fairness, have you had him eye tested and hip and elbow scored???


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## likwidgirl2k3

_Is this where I would start. I know the vets I take him to, do offer this service. Will his age affect this then? _


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## fosse

The vets will do the x-rays for hips and elbows but the scoring is done by the BVA. Eye screening has to be done by a BVA appointed eye panellist.


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## han89

hi... i have a male chihuahua whom i wish to stud.. however the breeder was an elderly women and hurriedly gave us her pups as she was had to go in hospital. The poor women died, and therefore the pups never got registered or if they did i don't have the papers! 

Obviously im not going to charge alot for studding if i were to, he is just has brillient temperament and his offspring would make good pets, no idea about in terms of breeding standards.... 

should i use this dog for stud? hese 8-9 years old, has had no health problems and a good all round chap x


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## Guest

han89 said:


> hi... i have a male chihuahua whom i wish to stud.. however the breeder was an elderly women and hurriedly gave us her pups as she was had to go in hospital. The poor women died, and therefore the pups never got registered or if they did i don't have the papers!


Therefore his history is somewhat questionable and impossible to trace,so you don't know if any problems run through his lines.



han89 said:


> Obviously im not going to charge alot for studding if i were to, he is just has brillient temperament and his offspring would make good pets, no idea about in terms of breeding standards....


The two reasons given are not acceptable to be offering a dog at stud,you should know the breed and standard inside out,know what your dog can add in terms of improving the breed and quality.



han89 said:


> should i use this dog for stud?


Definatly not.


han89 said:


> hese 8-9 years old, has had no health problems and a good all round chap x


Has he had all the breed specific tests required done with good results ?
I would suggest you would not find any reputable breeder willing to use a dog of his age with unknown background and unproven when there are younger quality dogs on the show circuit doing well.


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## han89

i dont like pedigree dog breeders, having written many assignments published on the internet on genetically inherited disorders.

this dogs has had a full health check, had no apparent genetic problems, also with a younger stud it is not apparent as to the genetic problems in which the pub has...


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## clueless

han89 said:


> i dont like pedigree dog breeders, having written many assignments published on the internet on genetically inherited disorders.
> 
> this dogs has had a full health check, had no apparent genetic problems, also with a younger stud it is not apparent as to the genetic problems in which the pub has...


If you do not like Pedigree Dog Breeders LOL WHY
1. Are you wanting to use your Pedigree dog at Stud
2. Why do you own a dog that had Pedigree parents bred by Pedigree dog owners LOL

Also as he has no papers it is only your word that he has all relevant tests done as results cannot be put on KC Papers if you not got none A full health check does not mean much in the Dog Breeding world, having "no apparent genetic problem" does not mean to say he is not a carrier of something


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## baillieswells

reena said:


> To be used for stud your dog needs to be ALC registered and he should already have his Ch title.They most likey are a few tests that should be done to make sure he is free from genetic defects. Hip displasia would be an example but this veries from breed to breed so find out what your breed needs to be tested for.
> Once your dog has completed his Ch title you will have meet many other people who own your breed and some of them will want to use your dog for stud if they feel he will complement their female.
> You do not pay vet bills for the female and you charge a fee usually equal to the price of a puppy or you get pick of the litter.
> If your dog is not AkC registered you do not have much of a stud prospect and if he is not shown and proven to be breeding quality he is not really worth much as a stud except to someone who is breeding dogs for profit.
> He is a nice looking dog.
> -------------
> Reena
> 
> Guaranteed ROI


 A Champion in the USA is very different from a Champion in the UK. Last year in my breed 10 champions were made up (finished) in the UK, in the USA with far fewer annual registrations 298 were made up. So the statement that the Stud Dog has to be a Champion is not true in the UK. A lot of UK Champion are not actually sired by Champions. However, those that are not sired by Champions are almost certainly sired by well known show dogs.
It is unusual for a non show dog to be seriously used at stud. Indeed there will be very little demand for some unknown stud. So unless you are in the show scene I don't think one should seriously consider using your pet at stud.


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## han89

clueless said:


> If you do not like Pedigree Dog Breeders LOL WHY
> 1. Are you wanting to use your Pedigree dog at Stud
> 2. Why do you own a dog that had Pedigree parents bred by Pedigree dog owners LOL
> 
> Also as he has no papers it is only your word that he has all relevant tests done as results cannot be put on KC Papers if you not got none A full health check does not mean much in the Dog Breeding world, having "no apparent genetic problem" does not mean to say he is not a carrier of something


as i have already said... the dogs were left to my boyfriend when an elderly women went to hospital- she then died.

i have never known a pedigree dog breeder to genetically screen an animal for all the possible genetic problems in order to breed, its all about the money to them.

if you want to argue this further, as i am studying genetics in my degree, i have come across noguidelines in the breeding standards which are known to me, that states that in order for as dog to be used for breeding it has all genetic faults checked for. I am not against breeding dogs to create a specific temperament or dog use, however at the moment most dog species are sooo inbred at the moment their genetics have increased homozygosity simply means that more diseases are going to be seen more often as a result of not all, breeding standards and practices.


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## Guest

Most reputable good breeders would argue that you want to do your best for any pups and the future and welfare of the breed concerned therefore YOU TEST for known conditions within the breed.

If you are studing genetics you should know that two parents can and will pass the faulty gene onto offspring,therefore giving you affected puppies,inbreeding does not create a problem which wasn't there to start with.


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## clueless

han89 said:


> as i have already said... the dogs were left to my boyfriend when an elderly women went to hospital- she then died.
> 
> i have never known a pedigree dog breeder to genetically screen an animal for all the possible genetic problems in order to breed, its all about the money to them.
> 
> if you want to argue this further, as i am studying genetics in my degree, i have come across noguidelines in the breeding standards which are known to me, that states that in order for as dog to be used for breeding it has all genetic faults checked for. I am not against breeding dogs to create a specific temperament or dog use, however at the moment most dog species are sooo inbred at the moment their genetics have increased homozygosity simply means that more diseases are going to be seen more often as a result of not all, breeding standards and practices.


Defo do not agree with your post, but hey ho. N ow can you answer one of the questions I asked as it is more important it seems now after the last post
2. Why do you wish to Stud the Chi????


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## clueless

han89 said:


> as i have already said... the dogs were left to my boyfriend when an elderly women went to hospital- she then died.
> 
> i have never known a pedigree dog breeder to genetically screen an animal for all the possible genetic problems in order to breed, its all about the money to them.
> 
> if you want to argue this further, as i am studying genetics in my degree, i have come across noguidelines in the breeding standards which are known to me, that states that in order for as dog to be used for breeding it has all genetic faults checked for. I am not against breeding dogs to create a specific temperament or dog use, however at the moment most dog species are sooo inbred at the moment their genetics have increased homozygosity simply means that more diseases are going to be seen more often as a result of not all, breeding standards and practices.


Nothing in the Breed Standards but check out kc Scheme A and Scheme B on KC Website re tests required for certain breeds and also check out Breed Clubs


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## han89

clueless said:


> 2. Why do you wish to Stud the Chi????


because i like the temperment of this dog, and want a puppie


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## Dundee

> i have never known a pedigree dog breeder to genetically screen an animal for all the possible genetic problems in order to breed, its all about the money to them.


Then, with all due respect, you are mixing with the wrong sort of breeders which doesn't bode well for the quality of the dog you have. Just love him for what he is - a wonderful pet - and if you want another, do your homework and buy a pup in from a reputable breeder who knows about health testing and producing quality puppies.


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## 23boyle

Rhodesian Ridgeback General Info: KC reg 2 1/2 Years old excellent temperament proven stud, very good with children. Max has sired five litters. We are extremely proud of what Max is producing. Photos of offspring are available upon request All enquiries are most welcome. Requirements for visiting Bitches: Please provide evidence of Kennel Club Registration. Must be of excellent temperament, must be two years old. If unsuccessful on the day no stud fee is chargeable.
please feel free to contacy for more information on


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## Ridgielover

It should be a minimum requirement that Rhodesian Ridgeback offered at stud has been hip scored, preferably with a score below the breed mean of 11.

Ethical breeders will only breed from hip scored animals, and many are now elbow scoring their dogs as well.

If pups are produced that are affected by hip dysplacia, then their purchasers will have the right to sue the breeder. If the breeder has not used hip scored parents then they could be liable for large damages.


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## goldendance

sallyanne said:


> Therefore his history is somewhat questionable and impossible to trace,so you don't know if any problems run through his lines.
> 
> The two reasons given are not acceptable to be offering a dog at stud,you should know the breed and standard inside out,know what your dog can add in terms of improving the breed and quality.
> 
> Definatly not.
> 
> Has he had all the breed specific tests required done with good results ?
> I would suggest you would not find any reputable breeder willing to use a dog of his age with unknown background and unproven when there are younger quality dogs on the show circuit doing well.


quite well said, i have 2 golden girls and i wouldnt want to use this dog, sorry


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## goodvic2

Just wondering why people are still breeding dogs, especially the staff's when our rescue centre's are full of these poor dogs desperate for homes. I'm obviously missing something......


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## Guest

goodvic2 said:


> Just wondering why people are still breeding dogs, especially the staff's when our rescue centre's are full of these poor dogs desperate for homes. I'm obviously missing something......


Maybe you could start a new thread about the subject


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## goodvic2

I have - thanks. I'll look forward to people's reasons for it.


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## spot

I would have to agree - is prob a bit too old - but check with your Vet :thumbup:


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## spot

goodvic2 said:


> Just wondering why people are still breeding dogs, especially the staff's when our rescue centre's are full of these poor dogs desperate for homes. I'm obviously missing something......


That is such a good point - I know it may sound a little harsh but there are so many people that feel they have to walk around with a tough looking dog like a Staff - and then soon realise that they can't cope and the poor dog ends up in a rescue home. At my local Dog trust their was such a lovely Staff that had severe back problems and loads of other Staffs - its the same with Grey hounds and whippets.ut:


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## fatkat87

hi, I've been thinking about putting my dog up for a stud but im a bit cautious as im not sure what effect it would have on him would it make him more/less energetic would he hump more or would he just constantly be looking for sex? I don't want to change the way he is as at the moment he has a perfect temperament and i don't want to spoil that?


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## trekkiemo

Yes he will be more aware of girls and you really should think about this as it could change his temperment.
Enjoy your dog as he is.


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## rictic

irresponsible breeding is the cause of so many bad lines in dogs.

a responsible breeder does all the health checks.
temerement checks on pups to assess what type of home would be best suited to the pup.
chats with the prospective buyers and assess their suitability for one of their pups.

also and the most important. they research the lineage of the prospective mate.

choosing dogs with above average scores in the health checks and with the prospect of improving the bloodline and gene pool overall.

anybody can push two dogs together and make babies.

what will you reasonably know about these pups? nothing without research, nothing at all.

they may be cute as a button with loads of inherent faults.
then a couple breed again.
you now have a larger pool of dogs with no checks at all but look great as puppies.

all that has been done is the gene pool and the hard work of reputable responsible breeders has one again been undermined.

one bad dog can give a whole breed a bad name.

my breeders offers the following.

free insurance for 6 weeks at her cost.

all health checks on both parents

a fully returnable pup if i am not happy

she has placed breeding restrictions on the kc papers, so if i do breed without her permission and clesrance the pups have no standing woth the kc and can never bregistered.

the parents have been matched for temperemant, colour, shape etc. not just two randy dogs.

i have her back up whenever i require it and the expertise of both the owners of the dam and the sire.
both kc accredited breeders.

as stated the shelters are full of unwanted pups. go there first please. just because fido is a good dog it doesnt mean his pups will be unless you know the history of the mate and even that is an educated assumption not a cast iron guarantee.


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## newlabowner

hi 
new to this just wondered if anyone knows what age is too old to stud lab.:


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## newlabowner

what age is too old to stud, my friend has an 8yr old lab she wants to breed with mine.:


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## baillieswells

newlabowner said:


> hi
> new to this just wondered if anyone knows what age is too old to stud lab.:


Depends upon the breed and the particular dog. Most good stud dogs go on until they are no longer fertile and stop producing puppies.


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## germanshepherds

A stud dog has to be atleast 12 months old before you can put it to a bitch.
Any proper breeder will know that is the minimum age for a dog to be studded.
P.S. I have a male german shepherd 1 1/2 yrs old full pedigree, 54 champs in blood line papers available on request. Hip scores A normal


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## germanshepherds

There is no max age limit for any dog to stud. As long as dog is healthy and joint scores are ok then he can be studed. ALWAYS remember to check the bloodlines.


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## baillieswells

germanshepherds said:


> A stud dog has to be atleast 12 months old before you can put it to a bitch.
> Any proper breeder will know that is the minimum age for a dog to be studded.
> P.S. I have a male german shepherd 1 1/2 yrs old full pedigree, 54 champs in blood line papers available on request. Hip scores A normal


Rubbish! A proper breeder (in my breed) will often try a young dog at six months, and then wait a few months before using him again.

However, why use a dog at stud unless he has something special to contribute to the breed in question?


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## Rach

baillieswells said:


> Rubbish! A proper breeder (in my breed) will often try a young dog at six months, and then wait a few months before using him again.
> 
> However, why use a dog at stud unless he has something special to contribute to the breed in question?


6 months 

Can I ask why and what benefits you get from using a pup at stud


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## baillieswells

Rach said:


> 6 months
> 
> Can I ask why and what benefits you get from using a pup at stud


If one has a potential stud dog, the sooner one knows whether it is fertile or not the better. It should then be left to mature.

Not so long ago I was looking for a stud dog for one of my bitches. I had seen just the dog starting his career in the show ring, and whose pedigree fitted in with my bitches. At the time he had no important show wins, and had not been used at stud. Luckily the mating worked, and also within a year he was the leading dog in the breed.


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## germanshepherds

baillieswells said:


> Rubbish! A proper breeder (in my breed) will often try a young dog at six months, and then wait a few months before using him again.
> 
> However, why use a dog at stud unless he has something special to contribute to the breed in question?


then that breeder needs their head examined as they should know that a male will not be ready to produce a litter until 12 months. There are some dogs that can produce before this age but it is best to wait until the reproduction system in male is completely ready first. If you say or know a breeder that uses dogs under 12months it can cause problems. More so in bitches under 12months but can happen to males to. The KC will also advise you that the dog should be 12months before being studed.


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## dexter

baillieswells said:


> Rubbish! A proper breeder (in my breed) will often try a young dog at six months, and then wait a few months before using him again.
> 
> However, why use a dog at stud unless he has something special to contribute to the breed in question?


never heard of a pup being tried at stud at 6 mths.


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## baillieswells

germanshepherds said:


> then that breeder needs their head examined as they should know that a male will not be ready to produce a litter until 12 months. There are some dogs that can produce before this age but it is best to wait until the reproduction system in male is completely ready first. If you say or know a breeder that uses dogs under 12months it can cause problems. More so in bitches under 12months but can happen to males to. The KC will also advise you that the dog should be 12months before being studed.


I am quite happy with the Kennel Club's dictat that bitches should not be bred from under twelve months old. I generally wait until the third season for my bitches, which is about eighteen months, though occasionally the second it if occurs well after a year. After eighteen months the pelvic bones become less pliable.

I am interested that you say that the KC will advise not to use a dog at stud until twelve months old. I was not aware of this. I am chairman of a breed club, and this is certainly not in our code of ethics or club rules,

I was at a large all breed championship show yesterday, and certainly in the smaller terrier breeds there were dogs in the minor puppy ( 6 - 9 monthe) and puppy (6 - 12 months) classes which looked fully mature. Interestingly this was not so in the bitch classes. In a large breeds such as Great Danes, the puppies all looked very immature.
To return to the question of using young dogs at stud. My own view is that no one should use their dog at stud, whatever its age, unless it is an outstanding example of the breed. And then only if it fits in with ones bitch.Choosing a suitable stud is a very difficult process. At yesterday's show there were seventy five dogs entered in my breed. I doubt if there were more than to or three which I would even consider as a suitable stud for my latest bitch.


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## shazalhasa

I've got two fabulous dogs and have been asked a few times about letting them Stud out but there is no way I'm ever going to let it happen. 
Any stud work they do will be for my own bitches and thats it. They may go into shows but they are all my pets first and foremost.


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## pauldenise1

hi everyone just joined today.i would like to offer my dog for stud. He is a black shar-pie 19 months old. fully kc registered and i have a five year generation tree showing his blood line. not sure how to go about starting.would be gratefull for any help and advice many thanks:wink5:


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## Dundee

For what reason are you looking to stud your dog? What qualities do you think he has that will attract bitch owners? and have you had all the breed specific health tests done and do you show him?

There are many ways to go about studding a dog, but really depend on the answers to those questions.


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## Guest

pauldenise1 said:


> hi everyone just joined today.i would like to offer my dog for stud. He is a black shar-pie 19 months old. fully kc registered and i have a five year generation tree showing his blood line. not sure how to go about starting.would be gratefull for any help and advice many thanks:wink5:


You need to get him health tested first, then start showing him, I'm not sure about health tests for the Shar-Pei breed but could put you in touch with a very nice lady who is a respected breeder/owner/exhibitor who could perhaps advise you if you care to PM me


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## baillieswells

pauldenise1 said:


> hi everyone just joined today.i would like to offer my dog for stud. He is a black shar-pie 19 months old. fully kc registered and i have a five year generation tree showing his blood line. not sure how to go about starting.would be gratefull for any help and advice many thanks:wink5:


Unless your dog has some good show wins under his belt, or his breeder, if well known in the breed, thinks he is of top quality I see no future for him as a stud dog.
(I can trace the pedigree of my latest nine month old dog puppy, who is Kennel Club registered, back to the beginning of the breed, some thirty generations. So what! Three of his grandparents are Champions, as is his sire,and the fourth grandparent has her Junior Warrant. He is also qualified for next years Crufts, yet he is soon going to a pet home, as I don't consider him really top class, and therefore no use as a stud. A dog which is not the tops is just taking up space, and is a problem with bitches around.)


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## nat1979

spot said:


> its the same with Grey hounds and whippets.ut:


??????????????????????????????????????
I worked with racing greyhounds for 12 years and have 5 whippets and i have never come across these breeds with back problems


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## Guest

pauldenise1 said:


> hi everyone just joined today.i would like to offer my dog for stud. He is a black shar-pie 19 months old. fully kc registered and i have a five year generation tree showing his blood line. not sure how to go about starting.would be gratefull for any help and advice many thanks:wink5:


Do you know the amount of health problems this breed suffers!! I would show him if he is a good enough example to breed from that will show through the show winnings and results he gets!! In the mean time of all that i would get him health tested! As the breed suffer so much with different problems you are very un likely to find a breeder( a good one anyway) that will put a non health tested dog to there bitches!

There are many ways to Stud a dog out but it all depends on what you want/think you can achieve from putting your dog to a bitch...


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## dimkaz

baillieswells said:


> If one has a potential stud dog, the sooner one knows whether it is fertile or not the better. It should then be left to mature.


for this there are sperm count tests carried out at your local vet practice (they cost little money and, more importantly, without risking of having a litter of malformed pups or jeopardise the reproductive health of the bitch). for the sire (or potential sire) trying him at stud when not ready can cause serious behavioural issues and the fact that once this method has worked does not mean that that's going to happen in any case.


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## sarahberra

Thank you for this article. I will pass it along to my mother in law. She has a poodle who is very beautiful. I think he is breeder quality.


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## missy2pippin

Rach said:


> 6 months
> 
> Can I ask why and what benefits you get from using a pup at stud


i would like to know too


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## shazalhasa

I'm going to put my ignorant two penneth in here.

For some breeds, showing isn't the way the prove if a dog is a good representative of the breed or not. In particular GSD, Shar Pei and other wrinklies. The dogs that are winning shows in these breeds are not 100% breed standard, they are what is fashionable... more wrinkles the better in the wrinkly breeds, the more obscure the slope of the back and the more deformed the back end in the GSD... defo not right or healthy !

This isn't the case with all dogs admittedly, but for the odd few breeds out there it certainly is the case. Health tests are a must for every breed, not just the ones recommended by the KC but general health tests too.


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## Bob Hamilton

likwidgirl2k3 said:


> _*Hi all,
> 
> I would like to offer my gorgeous golden retriever as a stud but not sure how to start or where to look for a bitch to mate him with. He is kc registered and fully vaccinated and is 5yrs 6mths old. Could anyone offer any advice?*_
> 
> :001_rolleyes:


Hi, He's probably a bit old to start now. Most breeders start their stud dogs very young. The first thing would be to get the relevant health checks done. No-one will want to use a dog unless it has a good hip score and clear eye certificate. The other thing is to make sure that his breeding matches up to his good looks. Is he from show lines? Are there show champions and/or field trials champions on his pedigree?
We have a young golden girl and are looking for a stud. We will probably end up going to a proven stud from a show kennel but they can be terribly expensive and we would consider using an untried dog provided everything about him was right. Bob.


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## del gray leuchars

i have a 1 year old border collie i want to breed, he is kc regestered and a very good looking dog. How much should i be looking for and what the best way to go about it. Any info welcomed


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## Ridgielover

The way to go about producing your dog as a stud dog is not just a matter of you deciding that he is a good looking dog and trying to decide how much you'd like as a stud fee 

Your dog needs to prove his worth to be a stud dog - the world is not exactly short of collies. He needs to be independently assessed and to prove his worth - whether in the field of showing or working. Then he needs to pass all the relevant health tests for his breed, which at the very least include passing eye tests and having his hips xrayed and scored and him having a below average result. If you have a look at border collie breed club web sites, I'm sure they will list the required health tests, and also the KC web site.

And remember, as a stud dog owner, you will share responsibility for any pups produced. People with bitches have every right to expect the owner of a stud dog to be very knowledgeable about the breed, to understand pedigrees and have knowledge of the dogs in the pedigrees (including any health issues) and I think a stud dog owner should be able to help to place puppies in suitable homes.

As I said, having a stud dog is not just a matter of owning a handsome dog and fancying making some money!


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## del gray leuchars

Thanks for the advice, not really bothered about the money i would rather have the pick of the litter as thats why i want to breed him. He is a family pet and we are going to start taking him to flyball up in dundee, would this help. Does it affect the nature of the dog after breeding him?


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## Ridgielover

Hi

If you are wanting to take the pick of the litter, then you've got to think about what your dog has to offer as a stud dog. Perhaps if your dog is absolutely outstanding at flyball, then someone may express an interest in using him at stud. But I reiterate my comments about health tests. Anyone who doesn't ask for proof of results of health tests is either a puppy farmer or has failed to do the research that is vital for responsible dog breeding.

In answer to your question - yes, using a dog at stud can change it and make it much harder to handle when other dogs are about. They can become permanently on the look out for bitches, they can become far less tolerant of other males and they can start marking in the house. 

To be honest, my best advice to you, if you are wanting a dog like the one you already have, is to go back to your breeder (if they are responsible and health test!) and to buy a relative of your dog.


----------



## MY-PK Bobby

Hi, concerning the minimum and maximum age depends also on what breed the dog is. The minimum age for small breeds is now 15 months and maximum age is usually about 8 years old but I am not sure if it's exactly the same for male dogs but I would pressume so.


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## trekkiemo

I agree in part, some show people can be rather stuffy and think only their dogs should be seen, 
I would like to think i would help any new breeder if they needed advice, show dog or not.


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## warmshoes

I know this is probably an old thread but I'm trying to research about offering my dog for stud, as it is completely new to me I'm not sure how to get started. 

From reading through the post, I would think to bring him to the Vet and have a full health check first to see if he is suitable?! He comes from a show background, a very rare Japanese Akita Inu with the right colour and temperment. It is so rare in the UK that I haven't actually met another one yet as most are American Akitas. 

So, apart from the price to ask for, can anyone suggest where I should advertise it? Because there is a lack of breeder in the UK, I can't really contact the exisiting breeder to ask around. If anyone know of any reputable Japanese akita inu breeders in the UK, please forward their details?!

Also, how old does he need to be? He is now 1 year 2 months, please advise.


----------



## moboyd

There are Akita Inu's about? so dont know where the rare comes from? 
health issues for the Inu
Autoimmune Disease

I would recomend you contact the breed club for more information.

The Kennel club at the moment require hips and eye. taking your dog to the vet and just getting a check over is not enough, you need the required tests done for this breed to prevent any possibility of breeding from carriers

I would say if your dog is a good specimen breeders will contact you for use of your boy, a good breeder will NOT breed from a dog that has not proven itself to be of quality, or at least been looked at by people with experience in the breed who know what they are looking at, a good breeder will not allow you to use your boy on their bitch if he hasnt passed with flying colours on health test, he should also be at least 2 years old before using him.

Why cant you contact his breeder to ask these questions? are you not supposed to be breeding from him? has the breeder placed endorsements on his registration with the KC and so not given permission for him to be bred from? if not then I think you are out of order seeking to breed with him when you KNEW he was not supposed to be bred from, sorry if I have read your post wrong but this is the impression I got from your post.

Mo


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## warmshoes

As I said, I'm very new into breeding and that's why I'm learning all I can to see if my dog is suitable. Unfortunately, the breeder I got Hanzo from no longer operates as she only decided to sell Hanzo because of her marriage breakup and she have to hurry to sell her house and everything else..it was very sad. The thing is as well it is the first Japanese Akita Inu that she bred as she previously only bred American Akitas, so there is not much I can learn from. 

As for the breed club, I think is my best bet and I probably should go along to their meeting to get to know more from them. Though it is a fairly small crowd and I did tried to contact them once or twice with no response:nonod:

I'm quite surpised to hear that there are many Jap Akita Inus breeders around as I cannot find any, apart from one or two in the UK. Though rest of Europe have many. All the ones I see in the UK are only American Akita or the Japanese Akita which of course is different than the Inus.

It is not that I'm trying to confuse anyone about if he's allow to breed or not, see my knowledge is so basic that I don't even know there might be a clause to say he can't on his papers. So, I'll definitely check tonight when I get home from work! 

Thanks everyone!


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## moboyd

this is a good site, with some advice, it may be worth contacting them to get advice on how to go about things?

lots of akita breeders advertise themselves as akita breeders, when they actually breed akitas/akita Inu's too.

Akita Puppies - Litters, Puppies, Available Dogs - Akitas/Akita/Japanese Akitas/Akita Dogs/Akita Breeders/Akita Stud Dog/Akita Puppy/Akita Pup

Mo


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## warmshoes

Thanks for the link! I did acutally contacted them in the past, although they've been very nice, they don't actually breed or have inus...so the search goes on...:huh:


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## fleurtess

My Miniature Poodle has been at stud since he was 10 months old. He is not a champion and in fact refused point blank to enter the show ring. He has sired beautiful progeny and that is your best advert, the progeny your stud dog produces. My Mini Poodle is Optigen Tested for PRA and is clear, he is looked at by the vet every 6 months of make sure his tackle is in order and nothing has gone amis. He will be 3 years old in June. 

My bitches are all Optigen tested and clear of PRA, does not matter if it is the dam or the stud, both should be tested for things that lurk in the breeds past. 

Laura


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## leashedForLife

> All the ones I see in the UK are only American Akita or the Japanese Akita which of course is different than the Inus.


i am utterly confused - the primary diff betw Am-Akitas + the breed in the COO / country of origin is the black-mask - 
which was introduced in Japan in the 1910s / 20s + 30s, when dogfighting was big money + Akitas were crossed with Danes, GSDs, etc, to add size.

the traditional Akita in Japan has a white mask or no mask. 
but * Inu * simply means DOG in Japanese - hence Akita Inu, Shiba Inu, Tosa Inu. 
so how are we now supposedly splitting the breed into 3 types? :crazy: i mean, it is not as tho we can afford to cut-up the gene-pool into a series of birdbaths + hope the breed survives the loss of diversity! :blink:

so whats an Inu? how do they supposedly differ? 
hornswoggled, 
--- terry


----------



## Nonnie

leashedForLife said:


> i am utterly confused - the primary diff betw Am-Akitas + the breed in the COO / country of origin is the black-mask -
> which was introduced in Japan in the 1910s / 20s + 30s, when dogfighting was big money + Akitas were crossed with Danes, GSDs, etc, to add size.
> 
> the traditional Akita in Japan has a white mask or no mask.
> but * Inu * simply means DOG in Japanese - hence Akita Inu, Shiba Inu, Tosa Inu.
> so how are we now supposedly splitting the breed into 3 types? :crazy: i mean, it is not as tho we can afford to cut-up the gene-pool into a series of birdbaths + hope the breed survives the loss of diversity! :blink:
> 
> so whats an Inu? how do they supposedly differ?
> hornswoggled,
> --- terry


In the UK, the Akita, and the Japanese Akita Inu are seperate breeds:

Japanese Akita Inu Breed Standard - The Kennel Club

Akita Breed Standard - The Kennel Club

Akita 








Japanese Akita Inu


----------



## leashedForLife

i already *know that* nonnie - but thanks. 

please see post #65, and this sentence - 


> All the ones I see in the UK are only American Akita or the Japanese Akita * which of course is different than the Inus.*


i reiterate - 
whats the DIFF between Am-Akita, Japan-Akita + so-called Inus?


----------



## warmshoes

Hi all,

Though not an expert myself, I know there is a difference at least with the American Akitas and the Inus..mainly their appearance, please see attached pics and it's obvious there is a difference. Am Akitas have a mask-like face, which mostly in a different colour compare to the main body coat. Temperment wise is also different as some countries are trying to ban Am Akitas because they do not get on with other dogs too well and can be harder to control by less expereince owner where the Inus are more docile and get on easily with other pets as well. This is of course from my own expereince and what I've read about them. In regards to the Japanese Akitas, it really puzzled me as coming from Japan, we don't actually heard of Jap Akitas...they only have Inus and American ones over there..if you look at the photos of the so called Jap Akitas, they're very similar the the American ones. As for the Inus, main difference is their face, much more chubbier and they do not have mask..coat colour is mostly red, brindle or white only.


----------



## leashedForLife

oh, my goodness... 
it is obvious that this is a complete misunderstanding, Shoes!  on Ur part - 
i already pointed-out the dark-mask common to the Am-Akita in my prior post, which U do not appear to have read (?) 


> In regards to the Japanese Akitas, it really puzzled me as coming from Japan, we don't actually heard of Jap Akitas...they only have Inus and American ones over there.


* Inu * as i already posted, MEANS *dog*. a Shiba is also an Inu - as is the Tosa. 
Japanese dog breeds (native japanese dogs) 
7 native breeds - all INU. _ so the 3rd *breed* never existed at all - there IS no Inu different from the JapAkita, they are the same - White Mask or No Mask, limited palette. _ glad to hear we are not splitting any more hairs :lol: or gene-pools 

all my best, 
--- terry


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## Abbieg1

hi can a six month old chihuahua dog produce pups thanks


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## rocco33

> hi can a six month old chihuahua dog produce pups thanks


Do you mean a dog or a bitch? A bitch could produce pups if they have started their seasons by 6 months yes. If you are talking about a dog, yes they are capable of producing pups at that age. However, neither SHOULD be bred from. They are too young and immature, and not all necessary health tests can be carried out at that age either.


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## leoti

Abbieg1 said:


> hi can a six month old chihuahua dog produce pups thanks


i hope that no 6 month old is producing puppies it is far to young to be having puppies anyway


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## Abbieg1

hi its a dog im talking about so 6 months is to young just ive got a 16 month bitch how is in season and need to move him away then he nearly seven months


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## Tanya1989

yes, most definitley keep them separate


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## rocco33

> hi its a dog im talking about so 6 months is to young just ive got a 16 month bitch how is in season and need to move him away then he nearly seven months


Yes, they need to be separated at all times. It would be preferable if you have someone he could go to stay with so that he doesn't get frustrated while she is in season, and it would prevent any accidents. Also, don't rely on stair gates and crates. They can mate through the bars!


----------



## Abbieg1

so what age can he stud from then


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## Tanya1989

At least after 12 months after all health tests have been done, which is very expensive in a lot of cases. In some breeds only after 2.5 yrs


----------



## nic76

fatkat87 said:


> hi, I've been thinking about putting my dog up for a stud but im a bit cautious as im not sure what effect it would have on him would it make him more/less energetic would he hump more or would he just constantly be looking for sex? I don't want to change the way he is as at the moment he has a perfect temperament and i don't want to spoil that?


it will change him. he may leave his sent around your house and its not a nice smeall. he can sometimes get a bit snappy towards other dogs once he has had a bitch. i think it makes them feel the master.

they can still be lovely family dogs though.


----------



## leashedForLife

robbinhood said:


> ...It costs no more to keep him than if he were not at stud, the bitches do the travelling and you get your fee when the mating is complete, not when the litter is born,


errrmmm... Yes it does CO$T more, as at the very ***minimum*** U need blood-work to check for Brucellosis, 
and if U are a half-way competent + ethical breeder, U also do *dog-generic tests* - CERF-certificates are annual - 
NOT once in a lifetime; OFA /Penn-HIP for joints, etc - *and* breed-specific tests, which may be DNA, rads, blood, skin-punches, 
or other screening.

if OTOH U are an unethical moron, then breeding won;t co$t YOU a dam*ed thing - 
it will co$t the owners of the F if she gets a k9-STD, and the eventual puppy-owners, if the pups are such trash 
as are likely to result from such profit-minded and careless, even slipshod practices. 
:thumbdown: i do hope theres a Pup-Lemon-Law where U live - and that puppy-buyers USE * IT to gouge money 
from the conscienceless slime-molds impersonating humans, who are engaging in such unethical breeding.

sometimes hitting them in the wallet is the only way to make them cry. 
:thumbsup: go get em, say i. 
--- terry


----------



## amiekie

I am wondering if anyone can give me information about studding my rottweiler or wether i can. He is 3 years old, he is pedigree with papers however he is not KC registered. What kind of things would i need to look at or need to ensure i do if i am thinking of studding him? Is there certain requirements that people look for in rottweilers i.e height, weight, certain physical features? 
Iw ould be grateful of any information anyone can provide me?


----------



## leashedForLife

amiekie said:


> [can] anyone... give me info about studding my rottweiler or wether i can.
> He is 3-YO... pedigree with papers however he is not KC registered.
> What kind of things would i need to look at or need to ensure i do if i am thinking of studding him?
> Is there certain requirements that people look for in rottweilers i.e height, weight, certain physical features?
> I would be grateful of any information...


hey, amie! :--) 
what registry is his pedigree under? FCI? a German registry? 
if it is a VANITY registry, which does not keep studbooks or offer judged shows for conformation, forget it - 
it is not worth the price of the paper it is printed on. :nonod:

the Q really is not _'can i breed my dog?'_ - it is *should i breed my dog?*
has he been shown in the conformation ring? does he have a KC bronze, silver or gold for behavior? 
is he friendly to visitors + in public, with ppl who are both like + UNlike his family - older, younger, disabled, color, 
diet, gait, speech, with a cane, mirrored sunglasses, hats, loud, shy...? 
does he have ALLERGIES or Auto-Immune problems - foods, pollen, etc? 
have his hips + knees been radiographed + scored?

here is a copy of a post of mine from yesterday - someone asked about amateurs as breeders: 


> _do U have a breeder-mentor?
> [someone who has BEEN
> breeding in that breed, generally for a decade or more]
> 
> do U have $1400 for an emergency C-Section?
> [thats lowest-cost -
> any extra complications, transfusion, IV-fluids, etc,
> are additional]
> 
> do U **know** every screening has been done on BOTH dogs -
> the prospective sire and prospective dam?
> 
> most genetic-screening requires MICROCHIPs to ID the dog -
> *have the vet check that the chip# matches the dog-ID and
> the chip on the paperwork *[CERF, Penn-HIP, OFA, etc]
> 
> both prospective-parents should be At Least 2-YO -
> 85% of all heritable disorders which will be symptomatic
> are present by 24-MO [Padgett DVM]
> 
> both should be UNDER 7-YO
> 
> tests for ALL breeds include:
> ---------------------------------------------------
> * CERF certificate from a k9-opthalmologist -
> verify registration here: CERF - CERF Certification Online Verification
> 
> * Penn-HIP or OFA scoring of hips [Giants + Toys: KNEES too]
> possibly elbow-rads + scoring as well
> 
> * Brucella test [blood test] - Brucella is an STD that
> is a zoonosis
> 
> * last but not least: find Ur breed here -
> AVAR's Guide to Congenital and Heritable Disorders in Dogs
> OR: AVAR's Guide to Congenital and Heritable Disorders in Dogs
> 
> as one example: Siberian Husky -
> Siberian husky: 41, 42, 65, 86, 103, 104, 121, 135, 147,
> 149, 152, 157b, 166, 186, 192, 221, 221a, 230, 245, 256,
> 270, 312, 328, 329, 330, 334
> each of those is a HERITABLE DISORDER found in that breed -
> some should be visible, like joint-problems with X-rays;
> others require bloodwork, skin-punches, DNA-screening,
> or a pedigree investigation.
> 
> for the tests that are available:
> see OptiGen
> OptiGen - Tests offered - Canine genetic testing, Ithaca, New York
> 
> OR: VetGen
> VetGen: Veterinary Genetic Services - Canine - List of Services
> 
> if BOTH dogs are 2-YO and up, under 7-YO, are excellent breed
> specimens [not 'ok' - SUPERIOR], are behaviorally normal -
> friendly, stable, bomb-proof, have no allergies or other
> auto-immune problems, have PASSED all their general-dog
> and breed-specific tests...
> ** and ** U are prepared for the co$t of breeding, have
> a breed-mentor and a vet on call for questions or problems,
> U are willing to spend TWO MONTHS caring for pups in Ur home
> [feeding, getting them out to potty when they reach
> 5-WO, cleaning-up puppy-pee and poop for at least 3-WEEKS
> from 5-WO to 8-WO when they can leave their dam + siblings
> for a new home]...
> 
> then maybe U are worthy to be a breeder. U have to do this
> because U love the breed and want to improve that breed -
> not for $$, not for spare-change, not SO THE CHILDREN
> CAN WITNESS THE MIRACLE OF BIRTH -
> get a DVD for that, or watch a YouTube clip.
> 
> every puppy that is born becomes a responsibility to that
> breeder for life -
> if they are returned, U should take them in - if not,
> U should be DONATING the price of one pup per litter
> minimum, to a breed rescue in Ur name -
> for those dogs of Ur breeding who may come in, during
> their lives.
> 
> NOTE:
> no F should be bred more than 2x in her life, unless
> she is exceptional - and if she is, then at least ONE
> litter should have 2 or 3 picked sires,
> with DNA-tests to ID the paternity.
> 
> No F should be bred on BACK TO BACK heats - a minimum
> of 12-MOs between matings, so she can recover.
> 
> No F should ever be bred on her maiden-heat!!
> [6-mos or more, first estrus]; she should be 2-YO to
> ensure that she is probably free of most heritable
> disorders that are not testable, but which
> might manifest in her.
> 
> maiden-breedings should be to experienced studs -
> MATADOR studs [Crufts winners, Winchester Kennel-Club
> winners, etc] should be avoided.
> 
> working-dogs and working-breeds should have WORKING TITLES
> to be bred: herding, bite-work, field-champion, draft-dog,
> weight-pull, sled-dog, tracking / trailing scent-hounds, etc.
> 
> every mating should be between dogs that COMPLEMENT each
> other: both meet the breed standard and each covers a fault
> in the other - there are no perfect dogs, but dogs with
> exceptional qualities in one area can compensate for a
> corresponding flaw in the other dog.
> 
> the intention is for the pups to be **better than**
> each parent - not merely to duplicate, to exceed.
> 
> can U promise all of that?
> --- terry _


i will post breed-specific genetic-screening for Rotts in the next post, and let U digest this - 
--- terry


----------



## leashedForLife

breed-specific conditions known to affect Rotts - 
*CERF Certificate exam items in blue* 
*joint OFA or Penn-HIP radiographs in red* 
*blood-tests, EX: thyroid-panel, in purple*



> Rottweiler:
> 9a, 27, 42, 85, 88, 94, 95, 103, 105, 129, 129a, 146, 152, 159a, 161, 166, 172, 192, 231, 245, 256, 269, 270, 300, 311a, 312, 326, 328, 330


that may not be an exhaustive list - it is from the LINK in the prior post. 
each # represents a specific heritable problem, listed by number on that website.

9a. Addison's disease (hypoadrenocorticism): 
a disease characterized by inadequate secretion of cortisone from the adrenal glands. More common in Old English sheepdogs, standard poodles and bearded collies. (See #159a.)

27. Behavioral abnormalities: 
a whole range of abnormal behavior patterns, such as aggression, panic disorders, etc.

42. *Cataract: *
as in humans, a change in structure of the lens of the eye leading to cloudiness and usually to blindness.

85. Diabetes mellitus: 
a metabolic disease caused by insulin deficiency and characterized by the inability to utilize sugars normally.

88. *Distichiasis: *
abnormally growing eyelashes.

94. *Ectropion: * 
an abnormal rolling out of the eyelids.

95. *Elbow dysplasia: *
an abnormal development of the elbow joint.

103. *Entropion: * 
an abnormal rolling in of the eyelid.

105. Eosinophilic panosteitis: 
a painful inflammatory bone disease of young, rapidly growing dogs, often characterized by increased eosinophils in the blood. (See #231.)

129. Folliculitis: 
an infection of the hair follicles.

129a. *Fragmented coronoid process: *
osteochondrosis of the elbow joint. (See #221a.)

146. Hemolytic anemia: 
anemia caused by the destruction of the red blood cells by an autoimmune process. Particularly common in cocker spaniels and Old English sheepdogs, as well as several other breeds.

152. *Hip dysplasia: * 
a developmental malformation or subluxation of the hip joints.

159a. Hypoadrenocorticism: 
a disease where autoimmune or other causes of destruction of the adrenal glands produces a deficiency of corticosteroids. (See #9a.)

161. Hypopigmentation, lips and nose: 
a condition where an animal lacks pigment (color) in areas where it is usually present. (See #328.)

166. *Hypothyroidism: *
a common endocrine disease where the body produces an abnormally low amount of thyroid hormones. An autoimmune destruction of the thyroid gland which affects more than 50 dog breeds. (See #192, 312.)

172. Intestinal malabsorption: 
...the intestinal tract does not absorb nutrients properly. AKA protein-losing enteropathy as a consequence of inflammatory bowel disease. [edit: IBS] In Irish setters there is also a wheat-sensitive enteropathy.

192. Lymphocytic thyroiditis: 
an autoimmune disease causing inflammation and destruction of the thyroid gland, which becomes infiltrated with lymphocytes (white blood cells) and leads to hypothyroidism. This is the most common endocrine disease of the dog and has an inherited predisposition. (See #166, 312.)

231. Panosteitis: (See #105.)

245. *Persistent pupillary membrane: *
a developmental abnormality where the membrane forming the iris does not form properly.

256. *Progressive retinal atrophy: *
a disease where the retina slowly deteriorates, producing night blindness. 
[EDIT: it begins as low-light vision loss, BUT generally progresses to total blindness even by daylight.]

269. *Retinal detachment: *
where the retina is unattached to the back of the eye.

270. *Retinal dysplasia: *
a condition where the retina is malformed.

300. Subaortic stenosis: 
a tightening of the outflow opening for blood [exiting] the heart into the aorta. Common in golden retrievers and Newfoundlands. [EDIT: stenosis = narrowing]

311a. *Thrombocytopenia: *
a reduced number of platelets in the blood which causes pinpoint hemorrhages in the skin and mucosa. 
Often accompanies #146 as an autoimmune syndrome called Evans syndrome. (See #249.)

312. Thyroiditis: 
an autoimmune inflammatory disease of the thyroid gland. (See #166, 192.)

326. Vasculitis: 
an inflammatory condition of the blood vessels.

328. Vitiligo: 
a lack of pigment in the skin (called vitiligo in man and hypopigmentation in nonhuman animals). Common in Rottweilers, Doberman Pinschers, Old English sheepdogs and dachshunds. (See #161.)

330. * von Willebrand's disease: *
a type of bleeding disorder caused by defective blood platelet function. Occurs in 59 dog breeds but most often in Doberman Pinschers. An autosomal trait affecting both sexes.

so - at a minimum, he needs 
* Brucella test [blood] 
* CERF certificate or the UK-equiv 
* OFA, Penn-HIP or UK-equiv on hips, knees + elbows [multiple radiographs for more than one view of the joints] 
* vWD test [blood, sent to *Univ of Michigan vet-lab* in the USA 
* 5-way thyroid-panel - T3 + T4, free-T3 and free-T4, and TSH - 
also sent to *Univ of Mich vet-lab* for best results - they have the world's largest breed-specific database

about GENETIC SCREENING via cheek-swab or blood -



> _*RESEARCH SAMPLES NEEDED FOR PRA and CATARACTS *
> 
> Special Note To Veterinary Ophthalmologists
> FREE TESTING FOR PRA-AFFECTED PUREBRED DOGS
> Who qualifies?
> Any purebred dog that has been examined by a board certified veterinary ophthalmologist (ACVO, ECVO) and that has been diagnosed with PRA is eligible for review for possible inclusion in the Free Testing program. Status of "PRA suspicious" or "atypical PRA" does not qualify.
> [snip]...
> 
> INHERITED CATARACTS
> 
> Modeled on our PRA research program, these projects are aimed at identifying the genes and mutations responsible for specific cataracts found in certain breeds. There are many types of cataracts but we are studying only 2 types at this time:
> 
> · *Bilateral, Posterior Subcapsular type that develops between 1.5 yrs and 3 yrs of age* in the following breeds: Golden Retrievers, Labrador Retrievers, *Rottweilers*, Bernese Mountain Dogs, and English Springer Spaniels
> 
> · Bilateral Posterior Cortical type that develops between 1 yr. and 3 yrs of age in the Siberian Husky, Samoyed and the Alaskan Malamute
> 
> The 3 steps for submitting cataract samples for research are the same as those for submitting PRA research samples (as described above). _


there may be genetic screens for other conditions specific to Rotts; i would find an ethical breeder with experience 
in testing their dogs, and ask - OptiGen + VetGen are the 2 largest DNA-screening companies.

a Q U can answer by looking at Ur dog - 
does he have ROUND open nostrils, a relatively box-muzzle and no wrinkle in front of his eyes? 
or does he have *vertical slits for nostrils, seen from the front* - with or without an upturned muzzle, 
or a crease or wrinkle in front of his eyes? 
if he has slit-nostrils he has *stenotic nares - * which do not just affect his looks, the outside nostril is only a hint 
of the narrowing of his sinuses, affecting his ability to breathe, cool effectively, remove dust, pollen, viruses 
and other infectious or irritating debris + microbes, and more. 
the only 'cure' for stenotic nares is surgery - which is expensive, but makes life so much better! 
however, such dogs should not be bred - stenotic nares are highly heritable.

dogs who SNORE while sleeping often have stenotic nares - 
an extended soft-palate can be commonly associated with stenotic nares in brachycephalic breeds, and can also be 
shortened when the nares + sinuses are widened, greatly easing their breathing, exercise tolerance, etc, 
and can extend their lifespan by years.
*EDIT to add:* of course, such surgery does not mean the dog will *throw pups who can breathe properly - * 
it is to improve his own quality of life.

stenotic nares in a French Bulldog - note the facial creases - 
http://www.greatdogsite.com/admin/uploaded_files/1190779926french_bulldog.jpg

open nares in a Rott: 
http://img.blogcu.com/uploads/petcare_rottweiler_tn.jpg


----------



## Ridgielover

Hi LeashedForLife

Just curious to know why you would only advocate using a dog at stud that is under the age of 7? I am a believer in using older dogs - they have had the chance to prove their worth and I think it is really important to see that the dog is still healthy when it is older. I have used dogs of 8 and 9 on more than one occasion.


----------



## leashedForLife

Ridgielover said:


> ...why you would only advocate using a dog at stud that is under the age of 7?
> I am a believer in using older dogs - they have had the chance to prove their worth and I think it is really important
> to see that the dog is still healthy when it is older. I have used dogs of 8 and 9 on more than one occasion.


hey, RL! :--)

sperm-quality starts to deteriorate in Ms as they age - 
more defective sperm [2 heads, 2 tails, etc], % of motile-sperm decline, sperm-#s per volume of ejaculate fall. 
just like human-Ms, the odds of siring offspring with mental or physical or emotional flaws, increases.

that does not mean we cannot use such proven older-Ms - just use sperm from their youth, banked for the purpose. 
U get the proven-healthy older-dog in his younger edition; more sperm per volume, fewer malformed sperm, 
better motility, and a lower-chance of age-associated damage to his progeny.

'natural breedings' in another domestic-species
breeders of Thoroughbreds in the USA insist upon a quote, 'natural breeding', which is a real joke: 
2 or 3 men handling each horse, the mare is HOBBLED on her fore till the last minute which is extremely-dangerous, 
to prevent her possibly kicking + injuring him - but she cannot support his weight on 'one foreleg', so somebody 
has to *remove* that bloody hobble before she is mashed to the ground by the stud, mounting, and herself hurt; 
in the case of Northern Dancer and his line, he was a homicidal maniac whose nickname when he was in training 
and racing was *The Hammer* because he rose up to strike at ppl and horses alike! 
personally, i don't care if he could outrace light across a landscape - he was an insanely-aggressive animal who should not 
IMO have been bred; but he was of course, *by building a mounting-chute into the outer-fence of his pasture - *
other than intromission, he never made contact with the mare, his body was supported to prevent BITEs, 
he screamed, threatened, reared, made his sperm-deposit, and ran off.

wouldn't it have been simpler and safer to breed such a psychotic stud, if U insisted upon doing so, with AI? 
artificial insemination would have meant the poor mare would not be terrified by this crazy display of equine 
threats of murder and rape, but would be teased by a non-threatening pony into a receptive mood, 
and bred simply by inserting sperm from the stomping, rearing, screaming sire, whom she need never meet - 
and in the case of normal studs, who do NOT want to attack mares but woo them, it still eliminates kick injuries, 
bites, falls, human-handlers getting tread on in the excitement, uterine infection from bacteria introduced, 
etc, etc.

breeding at pasture with studs and mares at liberty is *natural* - 
the highly-choreographed + hazardous halter-and-lead version is highly artificial, does not deserve the term, 
IMO, and confers few if any advantages over a nice, quiet AI-insertion to a calm mare, in a clean setting.

in all species, AI can give progeny to outstanding proven sires who are elderly, or even dead for years - 
litters have been born to k9-sires dead for decades, or neutered after they retired from the show-ring, 
but who had frozen sperm for such future breedings - the dog's longevity is known, but we do not need to use 
senior-sperm, we have nice young, healthy, active sperm from his prime.

food for thought, 
--- terry


----------



## Ridgielover

_"that does not mean we cannot use such proven older-Ms - just use sperm from their youth, banked for the purpose. 
U get the proven-healthy older-dog in his younger edition; more sperm per volume, fewer malformed sperm, 
better motility, and a lower-chance of age-associated damage to his progeny. "_

Actually, in the UK, we are not allowed to use semen from a dog that is alive and resides here (unless it's an Irish Wolfhound over the age of 8), so this is not a viable option for us.


----------



## leashedForLife

Ridgielover said:


> Actually, in the UK, we are not allowed to use semen from a dog that is alive and resides here (unless it's an Irish Wolfhound over the age of 8), so this is not a viable option for us.


why not, RL? 
it is used [among other things] in the USA, for multiple-sire litters from exceptional b*tches - 
and microchipping and DNA-profiles of sires and progeny clearly ID each one accurately, there is no falsification 
of sires, which is easy with only a paper-trail and hand-breeding - even being on-site to witness the breeding 
cannot guarantee that the stud-owner or b*tch-owner has the dog named on the pedigree, in the flesh.

since b*tches can have very-few litters in a lifetime, multi-sire litters allow the breeder to get far-more diversity 
into their line, without breeding to one sire - and if one of the sires in a multi-sire litter makes exceptional pups 
with a particular F, such a breeding can be repeated. extraordinary Fs are pearls of rare value, and should be 
genetically cherished and not limited to 2 or 3 sires, or even ONE sire breeding 2 or 3 litters, in their lives.

the problem of pedigrees
pedigrees are only as reliable as the ethics of the person filling them out - 
cross-checked parentage via chips on sires and dams, or better yet, DNA-profiles of chipped parents 
and all progeny [also chipped], are the sterling-standard of parentage, which is crucial to limit inbreeding 
and equally important, to track heritable conditions: PRA, joint-problems, cardiac malformities, and so on.

the stud-owner is required to chip their dog; the vet must scan, verify the chip and SIGN that it was verified, 
and only then can the vet harvest sperm; the sperm are evaluated, diluted, labeled, + frozen, or chilled + shipped. 
the F must also be chipped, and her ID verified by scanning with a signature by the vet, before the AI procedure 
can be done; if it is a multiple-sire litter, every pup is also DNA-profiled.

the UKC was an early-adopter - 
United Kennel Club: DNA-P and DNA-VIP Profile Program 


> _Once your dog has been DNA profiled successfully, you will receive a Certificate of DNA Analysis. This lovely certificate is suitable for framing and is a part of your dog's permanent identification.
> Once your dog has been DNA Profiled, DNA-P will always be listed after his or her registration number. If your dog is already permanently registered, and you would like DNA-P to be reflected on his or her registration certificate, you would need to return the certificate to our office with the appropriate fee so we may update your dog's registration certificate.
> 
> I have already started a DNA Program and want to produce DNA-VIP puppies.
> Once you have registered your litter out of two DNA-P parents, you may submit DNA swab samples for your puppies.
> Once these puppies have been profiled they are awarded the prestigious DNA-VIP (Verified Identified Parentage) status.
> This means your puppies have been tested and it has been proven by DNA analysis who their parents are. Their Certificate of DNA Analysis will bear the impressive Verified Identified Parentage gold seal. _


the AKC was a relatively-late adopter - 
American Kennel Club - DNA and the AKC 


> *bold + underline added - *
> 
> _Voluntary DNA Profile
> This voluntary program has resulted from significant input from the fancy. *The DNA Profile Program is for owners
> and breeders electing to add value to their breeding programs by eliminating concerns or questions about identification and parentage. *
> 
> A dog owner may contact AKC for a DNA Test Kit which includes a swab that the owner uses to collect loose cells from inside the dog's cheek. *An AKC DNA Profile containing the dog's registration information, genotype, and a unique DNA Profile number is issued for each dog sampled. This DNA Profile number will appear on subsequently issued Registration Certificates and Pedigrees.*
> 
> DNA Requirements
> AKC *DNA Profiling is required for:
> Frequently Used Sires- dogs having the greatest impact on the AKC Stud Book;
> imported breeding stock; dogs whose semen is collected for fresh-extended or frozen use;
> and for the sires, dam and puppies for Multiple-Sired Litter Registration.*
> 
> Kennel Inspections / Compliance Audit Program
> AKC Representatives take *DNA samples at randomly selected kennels to verify identification and parentage of litters.*
> AKC litter registration and privileges will be withdrawn when the parentage of the litters is determined to be incorrect.
> The dogs sampled through the Compliance Audit Program are not considered AKC DNA Profiled, and DNA Profiles are not issued.
> 
> The AKC DNA Database and Parentage Verification
> Comparison of the DNA profiles of a dam, sire, and pup(s) will determine, with greater than 99% confidence,
> whether the pups are from the tested dam and sire. The AKC DNA-database examines the parentage of all AKC
> DNA-Profiled registered dogs and litters whelped on or after January 1, 2000. When problems are discovered,
> the DNA staff works with breeders to determine correct parentage at the breeder's expense.
> 
> AKC Parentage Evaluation Service
> For a fee, an AKC DNA Analyst will issue a Parentage Evaluation of a litter in the form of an easy to read table listing each dog's genotype and a written report.
> Parentage Evaluation can be used to ensure accuracy when breeding has been done offsite, for cases of artificial insemination, or to add an extra measure of confidence to your pedigrees. _


i am puzzled as to why the KC thinks artificial-insemination is a bad idea - 
it is often safer, less-likely to transmit infection, and in the case of exceptional-Fs, greatly extends 
their breeding potential, as opposed to the single-stud litters and 2 to 3 max of most Fs over their lifespan - 
WITHOUT breeding her a dozen times, U can have pups from 12 sires in 3 litters.

is there an opinion piece somewhere that explains their concerns? 
--- terry


----------



## Tanya1989

Because they are frightened of the fact that it will be used to breed dogs that cannot mate naturally. They see it as if the dogs cannot mate naturally, then AI would be used, whereas in fact these dogs shouldn't be bred.

TBH I see no problem, provided it is done as responsibly as a normal mating would (should).


----------



## leashedForLife

Tanya1989 said:


> Because they are frightened of the fact that it will be used to breed dogs that cannot mate naturally. They see it as if the dogs cannot mate naturally, then AI would be used, whereas in fact these dogs shouldn't be bred.


thank U, tanya! :--) 
WoW - i would literally never have thought of that - how odd. 
do they assume that any living-stud who is bred via AI, is a paraplegic? 
what do they assume about the Fs? that she must be violently homicidal? * sarcasm, BTW 

what a very-strange perspective; assumptions like that are enormous leaps of [il]logic, IMO. 
are AI-breedings from imported semen also from crippled dogs or somehow damaged dogs, 
or are they assumed to be normal - which is also a huge assumption?

i am quite astonished, and will have to think about that one. 
thanks for the info, 
--- terry


----------



## kirsty craik

my friend wants to use my dog for a stud. he is 6 , got a certificate with his sire and dam details but my dog hasnt been registered will i still be able to do this . I have kc numbers for them , what shall i do is it to late to check history .:


----------



## Tanya1989

Only the breeder can register your dog with the kennel club. Personally I think 6 is far too old for a first mating (even for the stud).


----------



## goodvic2

kirsty craik said:


> my friend wants to use my dog for a stud. he is 6 , got a certificate with his sire and dam details but my dog hasnt been registered will i still be able to do this . I have kc numbers for them , what shall i do is it to late to check history .:


What is your motivation for breeding?


----------



## California Puppy Dogs

Do you know any boxers in the florida area??


----------



## leashedForLife

California Puppy Dogs said:


> Do you know any boxers in the florida area??


go to the website of the dog's registry + look for Boxer breeders in Ur state. 
UKC, AKC, whoever.

this is a UK-forum, hun - probly 3/4th are in the UK or Europe.


----------



## swarthy

nic76 said:


> it will change him. he may leave his sent around your house and its not a nice smeall. he can sometimes get a bit snappy towards other dogs once he has had a bitch. i think it makes them feel the master.


We always respond that it will change them - and sometimes it does, but frequently it doesn't - and in some instances actually makes them easier to handle around bitches for those with mixed households.

Having said all that, I am still holding out with my boy


----------



## tigart69

i am proud owner of a 23 wk old american akita.. recent visit 2 vet said he had only 1 testicle develop.. she says he can't be bred, cause of this.. i was hopin 2 get at least 1 litter out of him b4 i got him neutered... 

is it possible 4 him 2 do so..?? as he's a beautiful dog..


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

tigart69 said:


> i am proud owner of a 23 wk old american akita.. recent visit 2 vet said he had only 1 testicle develop.. she says he can't be bred, cause of this.. i was hopin 2 get at least 1 litter out of him b4 i got him neutered...
> 
> is it possible 4 him 2 do so..?? as he's a beautiful dog..


It could be that his retained testicle is due to a genetic defect, so I would say he definitely shouldn't be bred from. There's no reason to breed from a dog before you have them neutered, if you're hoping for a dog like him, then buying from similar lines/breeding will give you a better chance.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

leashedForLife said:


> thank U, tanya! :--)
> WoW - i would literally never have thought of that - how odd.
> do they assume that any living-stud who is bred via AI, is a paraplegic?
> what do they assume about the Fs? that she must be violently homicidal? * sarcasm, BTW
> 
> what a very-strange perspective; assumptions like that are enormous leaps of [il]logic, IMO.
> are AI-breedings from imported semen also from crippled dogs or somehow damaged dogs,
> or are they assumed to be normal - which is also a huge assumption?
> 
> i am quite astonished, and will have to think about that one.
> thanks for the info,
> --- terry


Terry, when you look at some breeds that find it difficult to mate, conceive and give birth naturally, I think the stance of the UK KC is understandable, I'm thinking of the bulldogs here, where some lines have difficulties in the area of procreation. Now some people are dishonest enough to use AI in any case and say the act happened naturally, but of course that is down to the individual breeder's conscience, you will unfortunately get this sort of person in any type of activity, including what appears to be reputable breeders.

It's a bit more of a difficult proposition for you in the States, where you have much longer distances to travel possibly to get to your stud dog, and AI is safer not only in terms of avoiding the 'natural' act, but also avoiding long distance travel.


----------



## leashedForLife

tigart69 said:


> ...23-WO american Akita.. [my] vet said he had only 1 testicle [descended],
> she says he can't be bred, [be]cause of this...


hey, tig! :--)

normally, a M-pup's testes are both descended + in the scrotum between 5 + 6-WO, and if they do not drop by 8-WO, 
there's a problem; the longer one or both stall, the worse the problem.

i agree with the vet: he's past 5-MO and nearly 6-MO, he is WAY-past time to have both testes dropped, and neutering ASAP would be my suggestion. 
* it's a *highly-heritable* condition - 
a definite don't-breed flag
* it reduces fertility 
* it increases the odds of congenital problems in pups 
* *it greatly magnifies the risk of testicular-cancer in the retained testis/testes*

IMO, the sooner the retained-testis is removed, the better.

on the breeding Q - 
who besides U thinks he is an excellent specimen? 
just cuz we love our dog and think she/he is gorgeous, is not reason to breed that particular dog; 
anyone who has a dog they adore, will be biased when evaluating that dog for breeding potential.

that's why getting an INFORMED + IMPARTIAL evaluation is important; judging in the breed ring, or a breed-mentor who sees the dog in person; 
they need to see the dog, handle his shoulder layback, check muscular development and coat-quality and skin-health [haircoat + skin are not just 'pretty', they are good indicators of overall health]... 
*PLUS* X-rays to evaluate joints, 
an eye-certificate from a k9-opthalmologist, 
all other *breed-specific screening tests - * 
which in Akitas includes 
- 3 full-depth skin-punches for Sebaceous adenitis and 
- a 5-way thyroid-panel, analyzed by the Michigan State Univ vet-labs and 
- a blood-test for Von-Willebrands and 
- WAITING to breed until the dog is 24-MO [as 85% of all heritable problems that will be symptomatic in the individual dog, will have symptoms by 2-years-age; see Padgett DVM].

just looking at our own dogs and saying, _"s/he is really pretty, and i think i would love to have puppies..."_ 
is not anywhere near enuf reason to breed any dog; they need a disinterested, knowledgeable person 
to say, _"yes, this dog meets breed standard and is an excellent specimen, with good temperament, structure 
and overall health"_, AND have the vet-certificates to prove they are free of joint problems, eye problems, and other breed-specific issues.

knowing *carrier status* if tests are offered to determine this in that breed, is also important; 
a carrier does not have symptoms of a recessive condition, as they have only ONE of the deleterious genes; but half of their pups will get that 'bad gene'. 
breeding carriers to dogs free of the particular gene means NO pup in the litter will become symptomatic, and approx half will be carriers.

breeding is a bit more complex than take 1 M + 1 F of the same [or dissimilar] breeds, 
and let them reproduce - it takes forethought and planning, and choosing a GOOD prospective dam or stud is more than having a nice pet.

this fella will fulfill his destiny being a much-loved + [hopefully] well-trained, well-behaved pet - 
maybe he has other skills, is he an athlete? maybe agility; maybe heelwork to music; or freestyle...
does he love an audience? how about trick-training?

does he love KIDS? literacy-dogs are a Godsend for children who read poorly; dogs are uncritical listeners and help to relax a nervous reader, so they can focus and learn.

does he love people? 
my F-Akita was a terrific therapy-pet, we visited lots of people - in the rehab hospital, she carried a stuffed-toy from room to room, greeted the Drs and staff, the receptionists loved her, and she was a wonderful ambassador for her breed.

all my best, 
--- terry


----------



## bonny lockey

what is stud


----------



## leashedForLife

bonny lockey said:


> what is stud


there are 2 possibilities: 
1, this is a wind-up and U know perfectly well. 
2, it's a genuine question. *i will be charitable, and assume the latter - 
if it's the former, someone else may profit, anyway. * :thumbup:

a *stud,* noun, is 
- an intact-male dog who has *already been bred at least once* 
- an intact-male dog who has *progeny* 
- an intact-male dog offered for breeding, as in an ad

*to stud,* verb, is to offer or contract one's male-dog as a potential or chosen sire, 
or being *solicited* by the owner of a female-dog as a potential sire - 
IOW asked to mate one's male dog with their female. 
_that's today's biology-vocabulary lesson, now who wants to be first for Show And Tell?... *charley?..._


----------



## leashedForLife

bonny lockey said:


> what is stud


 whoops - seems our new-member is, or SHOULD be, aware of what *studs* are:


> _Yesterday, 05:08 PM
> bonny lockey - Pet Forums Newbie
> Join Date: Nov 2010; Posts: 3
> 
> Subj: *can i advertise on here*
> can i advertise my puppies on here?? anybody?? _


now, U'd think anybody with a litter - or two, or three, or ten - would KNOW what a stud is; 
maybe that's how s/he happens to have puppies at home, eh?  
_*kids, don't do this at home - if U have a girl-dog or a girl-cat, 
DON't ask someone to breed that dog or cat, or let them breed their male to her - 
get Ur mom or dad, or their mom or dad, and let the grown-ups deal with the numpty and their 'stud'.*_ :thumbup:


----------



## goodvic2

leashedForLife said:


> whoops - seems our new-member is, or SHOULD be, aware of what *studs* are:
> now, U'd think anybody with a litter - or two, or three, or ten - would KNOW what a stud is;
> maybe that's how s/he happens to have puppies at home, eh?
> _*kids, don't do this at home - if U have a girl-dog or a girl-cat,
> DON't ask someone to breed that dog or cat, or let them breed their male to her -
> get Ur mom or dad, or their mom or dad, and let the grown-ups deal with the numpty and their 'stud'.*_ :thumbup:


Very observant! lol


----------



## scovic

SIMON007 said:


> hi just joined
> 
> so still not sure where to post messages , but i have 11 month british bulldog i would
> like to put to stud , not sure how old he has to be and dose he need medical, thanks


hi ,

11 months is a good age to start with a bulldog as i breed these myself.
best to have a vet check first to make sure he his fit an healthy and make sure all you paperwork is in order,i.e dog in your name kc.etc.

if u have never bred a bulldog before i wouldnt advise u did it yourself and dont think they would do it left alone like any other dogs cause they cant.

these have to be handled by the breeder or u could damage both dogs.
let someone with experiance handle your dog for u an show u how to go on.
can help with any questions.
good look
scovic:thumbup:


----------



## nfp20

Surely at 11 months they have not finished growing yet and are still a puppy so you don't know what you will be getting or what health/temperament issues are going to appear??


----------



## leashedForLife

scovic said:


> *11 months is a good age* [to breed] a bulldog as i breed these myself.
> best to have a vet check first to make sure he his fit [and] healthy...


errrmm, that would be a "*no*", IMO - as over-85% of all heritable disorders 
which will affect a dog in that dog's lifetime, will *manifest *- that is 'be visible' or symptomatic - 
by the time the dog is 24-mos AKA 2-YO - so it is strongly suggested that breeders wait 
until 24-mos age to breed any dog, of either gender, and any breed or size - toys, medium, large, giant.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

scovic said:


> hi ,
> 
> 11 months is a good age to start with a bulldog as i breed these myself.
> best to have a vet check first to make sure he his fit an healthy and make sure all you paperwork is in order,i.e dog in your name kc.etc.
> 
> if u have never bred a bulldog before i wouldnt advise u did it yourself and dont think they would do it left alone like any other dogs cause they cant.
> 
> these have to be handled by the breeder or u could damage both dogs.
> let someone with experiance handle your dog for u an show u how to go on.
> can help with any questions.
> good look
> scovic:thumbup:


Is this a troll?? Apols if you're not, but you really need to do a lot more research, even I know 11 months is nowhere near acceptable to use a stud dog


----------



## PETER.PHIL

EDIT: The way for someone who is interested in breeding to get into it is to get a proper mentor from the breed club, someone to teach them about THE BREED, not just about breeding. Even though I didn't have a mentor per se, I was "in dogs" for 11 years before I had my first litter, and I spent a lot of time learning, reading, showing, training, talking to breeders etc.


----------



## safira218

tashi said:


> Probably a little bit old to start with him now in all fairness, have you had him eye tested and hip and elbow scored???


The vets will do the x-rays for hips and elbows but the scoring is done by the BVA. Eye screening has to be done by a BVA appointed eye panellist.


----------



## klee

Hi

I have an 11 month old F1 shorkie tzu, who I would like to use as a stud dog but im not sure where to start?


----------



## Tanya1989

You need to ask yourself "why do I want to use him at stud?"


----------



## dexter

klee said:


> Hi
> 
> I have an 11 month old F1 shorkie tzu, who I would like to use as a stud dog but im not sure where to start?


i wouldn't bother. there are so many crosses being bred now and alot ending up in rescues. my advice would be have him castrated and enjoy him as a pet.


----------



## goodvic2

dexter said:


> i wouldn't bother. there are so many crosses being bred now and alot ending up in rescues. my advice would be have him castrated and enjoy him as a pet.


:thumbup:

Well put!


----------



## matt1wt

reena said:


> .
> Once your dog has completed his Ch
> Guaranteed ROI


What about being a champion in hunting or herding or the function on what the breed was developed for?


----------



## basilDog

I have an F1 apricot Labradoodle to be used as a stud. have arranged to have him registered with the kennel club, made appointment with the vet for a hip score. basil is 2 years and 8 months old. He is an ideal family dog with great personality. he loves long walks, playing with balls, swimming in the sea. he is a very loveable dog. Anyone interested in using Basil as a stud, please e mail me. thank you x:001_tt1:


----------



## simplysardonic

basilDog said:


> I have an F1 apricot Labradoodle to be used as a stud. have arranged to have him registered with the kennel club, made appointment with the vet for a hip score. basil is 2 years and 8 months old. He is an ideal family dog with great personality. he loves long walks, playing with balls, swimming in the sea. he is a very loveable dog. Anyone interested in using Basil as a stud, please e mail me. thank you x:001_tt1:


As he's not pedigree I thought labradoodles couldn't be KC reistered?
Has he been health tested?


----------



## Blondie

simplysardonic said:


> As he's not pedigree I thought labradoodles couldn't be KC reistered?
> Has he been health tested?


Uo beat me to it!! Dog indeed cant be KC Registered so therefore cannot be BVA hip/elbow scored etc etc


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

simplysardonic said:


> As he's not pedigree I thought labradoodles couldn't be KC reistered?
> Has he been health tested?


You can register cross breeds on the companion register, but you're right, they're not a pedigree *breed* and can't be registered as a pedigree.


----------



## Devil-Dogz

Ceearott said:


> Uo beat me to it!! Dog indeed cant be KC Registered so therefore cannot be BVA hip/elbow scored etc etc


I thought you could have the hips/elbows done even if they werent registered with the KC


----------



## Blondie

Devil-Dogz said:


> I thought you could have the hips/elbows done even if they werent registered with the KC


Can ya?? I thought the BVA would only do KC Reg dogs................. scoots off t find oot...............

Although I do know they have to be microchipped or tattooed now.


----------



## Devil-Dogz

I dont know for sure, but I am sure they didnt have to be registered. - when ya find out let me know! :lol: - Yes I heard they had to be microchipped or tattooed.


----------



## Blondie

Devil-Dogz said:


> I dont know for sure, but I am sure they didnt have to be registered. - when ya find out let me know! :lol: - Yes I heard they had to be microchipped or tattooed.


I cant find out on the BVA site, but seing as its connected to the KC, am pretty sure they have to be KC Reg - I was always told this was the case anyway - perhaps some clever person will be along who knows the answer for sure, lol!


----------



## noushka05

non registered dogs can be done....ive seen a few labradoodles on the BVA site anyway, i think all dogs have to be identifiable with microchips now as DD says


----------



## Blondie

Well, I will find out soon enough for sure now, coz I just emailed them ,LOL!! Will report back when I get a reply


----------



## leashedForLife

i would be astonished if the dog was *required* to be KC-registered. 
surely owners of working Collies, Terrierrrists, gundogs, etc, should be allowed to screen their dogs 
before any potential breeding? They don't have X-ray vision, any more than the rest of us do. 

from BVA - Hip Scheme


> _ In this section you can find out more about the Hip Scheme
> 
> Hip dysplasia is a term which includes a number of specific developmental and other abnormalities involving the hip joint.
> 
> The purpose of the hip scheme is to reduce the incidence of the disease in dogs used for breeding.
> 
> Related documents
> Hip dysplasia in dogs
> Breed specific statistics
> 
> If you have decided to have your dog(s) screened, or to learn about the procedure of screening,
> please read the Procedure Notes.
> 
> Please read the procedure notes before submitting your dog(s) as failure to do so may result in delays.
> 
> Costs
> Item	____ Excluding VAT(£) per dog |	Including VAT(£) per dog
> 1-4 dogs	£41.67	___________________ £50.00
> 5+ dogs for same owner	£37.50 ______	£45.00
> Rescoring under appeals	£83.34 ________	£100.00
> Copy of certificates*	£29.17 per copy _____	£35.00 per copy
> Joint Hip & Elbow £75.00 _____________	£90.00
> 
> *can only be issued to the person(s) identified on the original certificate as the owner(s) of the dog
> at the time of scoring.
> 
> NB - Once a certificate of HD scoring has been issued for a dog, the dog may not be resubmitted for scoring
> under the Scheme.
> 
> Digital images
> Digital DICOM images can now be submitted on CD or DVD. Full instructions for submitting in this format are available
> from the CHS office and will be printed in the Procedure Notes of the schemes for 2011.
> 
> Publication of results
> *The Kennel Club is responsible for publishing hip dysplasia results for all pedigree dogs* in the Kennel Club
> Breed Records Supplement, and on progeny registration certificates. _


there's only one mention of the KC, & that's the Club's responsibility to publish the results. 
nothing says that only registered dogs will be screened.

from the PROCEDURE pdf-file: 


> _ Hip dysplasia (HD) is a genetically transmitted condition, but environmental factors may influence
> the final score achieved. The score does not therefore absolutely reflect the potential for transmission of HD
> of an individual animal, but should be regarded only as an indicator of possible transmission of the condition.
> 
> For the Scheme to be meaningful and successful it is important that *a film from EVERY dog radiographed
> be submitted for scoring, whether or not the animal is required for breeding and whatever the state of the hips*,
> in order to provide the widest possible information for use by a geneticist.
> [SNIP]
> ... The following procedure should be observed:
> (a) the minimum age of a dog for submission under the Scheme is one year. There is no upper age limit;
> (b) the dog must be permanently identified by either microchip or tattoo;
> (c) suitable arrangements must be made with the veterinary surgeon for the dogs hips to be radiographed;
> 
> (d) the following documents must be made available at the time of radiography 
> (i) the Kennel Club (KC) Registration Certificate of the dog *if it is registered with the KC*,
> (ii) any related transfer or change of name certificate;
> 
> (e) prior to radiography of the dogs hips, the owner must complete and sign the first section of the certificate (the
> Owner s Declaration) verifying that the details given in that section relate to the dog being submitted, that the
> details are correct and granting permission for the results to be used in the ways specified.
> The certificates are provided by BVA. _


registration appears to be optional - not mandatory.


----------



## swarthy

Ceearott said:


> Well, I will find out soon enough for sure now, coz I just emailed them ,LOL!! Will report back when I get a reply


Any dog, registered or otherwise, pedigree or not can be hipscored, elbow scored and eye tested, and DNA tested. There is indeed now breed averages on hips for Labradoodes and other non-KC registered breeds.

As with pedigrees, since the beginning of this year, all dogs to be tested have to be have permanent ID (I thought microchipped - uncertain whether they allow tattoos or not.)


----------



## Blondie

leashedForLife said:


> i would be astonished if the dog was *required* to be KC-registered.
> surely owners of working Collies, Terrierrrists, gundogs, etc, should be allowed to screen their dogs
> before any potential breeding? They don't have X-ray vision, any more than the rest of us do.
> 
> from BVA - Hip Scheme
> 
> there's only one mention of the KC, & that's the Club's responsibility to publish the results.
> nothing says that only registered dogs will be screened.
> 
> from the PROCEDURE pdf-file:
> 
> registration appears to be optional - not mandatory.





swarthy said:


> Any dog, registered or otherwise, pedigree or not can be hipscored, elbow scored and eye tested, and DNA tested. There is indeed now breed averages on hips for Labradoodes and other non-KC registered breeds.
> 
> As with pedigrees, since the beginning of this year, all dogs to be tested have to be have permanent ID (I thought microchipped - uncertain whether they allow tattoos or not.)


Cheers guys!! And yeah, Swarthy, its chipped or tattooed :wink:


----------



## Devil-Dogz

There we go was starting to think I was dreaming stuff again  - Yes it can be tattooed or chipped.


----------



## kritiana08

tashi said:


> hi we do have members from over the water as well


so still not sure where to post messages , but i have 11 month british bulldog i would
like to put to stud , not sure how old he has to be and dose he need medical, thanks


----------



## kodakkuki

kritiana08 said:


> so still not sure where to post messages , but i have 11 month british bulldog i would
> like to put to stud , not sure how old he has to be and dose he need medical, thanks


Hi,
Welcome to the forum! Have you tried contacting your local breed club? I think we have a few bulldog people here, but it may be easier and faster calling the British bulldog club than trying to track them down (I can't remember their usernames). They will likely recommend you do a few health tests on him.
Let us know how you get on!


----------



## Tanya1989

*I would like to remind members, whether old or new, that this is not a website for advertising the use of a stud dog*


----------



## jem jem

Hi I have a 12 month old male St Bernard who is kc reg and a a really good example of the breed I am in two mind's to stud him or not I was told that of I was to stud him he mite not be such a good family pet I have young children so that's the most important thing if anyone has any advice it will really help thanks Jem


----------



## DoggieBag

jem jem said:


> Hi I have a 12 month old male St Bernard who is kc reg and a a really good example of the breed I am in two mind's to stud him or not I was told that of I was to stud him he mite not be such a good family pet I have young children so that's the most important thing if anyone has any advice it will really help thanks Jem


You should seek advice by starting your own thread, it may get noticed more quickly.

However in what way is he a good example of the breed? Visually? Or has he had all the health tests suggested for the breed?

12 months does seem young as well.


----------



## Malmum

I wouldn't! For one it will cost a fortune for all the health tests, don't know what "bernies" have but would have thought hip scoring was just one they need and two he is too young anyway so if he does have any problems they may not have shown yet. To me he is just a baby and still maturing and if anything goes wrong with the mating due to his inexperience, especially during the tie, he could haemorrhage at the penis. 

Not worth it and it could make him a handful around the ladies in the future or even a scent marker in your house.


----------



## dexter

i wouldn't bother tbo . what he hasn't had he won't miss. There are a couple of large kennels who have some great dogs yours would have to be something special to be used over theirs imo.love him for what he is a lovely pet.


----------



## swarthy

jem jem said:


> Hi I have a 12 month old male St Bernard who is kc reg and a a really good example of the breed I am in two mind's to stud him or not I was told that of I was to stud him he mite not be such a good family pet I have young children so that's the most important thing if anyone has any advice it will really help thanks Jem


Do you show him? if you don't. and he is your first St Bernard, how do you know he is a really good example of the breed? even puppies that are I've seen go off the boil by the time they are 12/18 months - at 12 months for such a large breed he will still be very immature.

Are you aware what health-tests are required for the breed?

Do you have anyone who could act as a mentor?

Does his KC registration have endorsements on it, and if so, do you know what you have to do to get them lifted?

Would you be able to advise novice bitch owners on everything from caring for a pregnant bitch through to whelping and beyond?

Are you willing to get intimate with your boy and his bodily fluids, not to mention getting very intimate with visiting ladies?

I've whelped a number of litters and have assisted in more than a few matings - but I've twice failed to bring my own (fully health tested) dog and bitch together - even though he knows exactly what to do and she was literally "gagging" for it.

The first time, I was rushed into hospital, the second time, my partner had just had surgery - by the time I got to speak to people about helping me - it was too late - and I've got Labs -considerably smaller and probably less than half the weight of a St Bernard.

Would you be willing to guide bitch owners through the health tests, or even, as I did recently, collect a bitch from someone I knew vaguely and take her to an eye testing clinic.

How well do you know your breed pedigrees - would you know what would and wouldn't be a good match for your boy on paper - but similarly, would you be able to know enough about the breed conformation to accept type to type matings even when the pedigrees are outcrosses?

There's a lot to know when being a stud owner - the income might look potentially lucrative - but often the work you have to do and the commitment you have to make to bitch owners can suddenly 'shrink' making it not such an appealing hourly rate. I've know of matings which have taken 4 hours plus to happen - exhausting for everyone.

Would you be willing for people you don't know to turn up on your doorstep late at night on a bank holiday / christmas eve / christmas day even with just a couple of hours notice?

TBH IME change of temperament and issues around in-season bitches haven't come into the equation at all - but the level of knowledge you need for your breed, a considerable amount of strength and willingness to get very intimate with your boy and his "lady friends" would be critical to his success as a stud dog.


----------



## leashedForLife

> Originally Posted by *jem jem * -
> 
> ...I have a 12-MO male St Bernard, who's KC-reg & *a really good example of the breed* -
> 
> I'm in two minds: to stud him or not? I was told that [if] I [breed] him, he might not be such a good family pet
> [any more]; I have young children, so that's the most important thing.
> 
> if anyone has any advice, it will really help.
> thanks,
> - Jem





DoggieBag said:


> [If U start] your own thread, it may [be] noticed more quickly.
> 
> ...in what way is he a good example of the breed?
> Visually [only]? Or has he had all the health-tests suggested for [Saints]?
> 
> 12-MO does seem young, as well.


definitely agree on all counts, Bags. :thumbup1:

Jem, we all love our dog but making more-dogs means breeding not merely to equal 
their parents' qulaity, but much-more, hopefully *improve upon* the parental models - 
the progeny should ideally have fewer of each parent's flaws, & more of each parent's virtues, 
if U see what i mean? And let's face it, clearly seeing the faults on our own much-loved dogs is similar 
to seeing the faults in our child, or perhaps the faults of our sweetheart in those first heady days 
of euphoria as we fall in love - we're not objective or logical, we're caught up in our own emotions 
& that makes us biased - our critiques are more like paeans of praise,  

neither Saints nor any other dog should be bred before 2-YO - as over-85% of all heritable problems 
which will affect that dog, show as symptoms by 24-mos age.

Saints have a number of breed-specific problems which should be tested or screened for, in relatives - 
here's a list from this post: 
http://www.petforums.co.uk/1061204822-post68.html



> _* Saint Bernard:*
> 27, 31, 38, 42, 60, 72, 83, 88, 94, 94a, 103, 109, 114, 118, 121, 122, 128, 131, 133, 140, 147,
> 148, 149, 152, 155, 166, 188, 198, 221, 221a, 225, 262, 273a, 298, 325, 328, 329, 330 _


27. Behavioral abnormalities: 
a whole range of abnormal behavior patterns, such as aggression, panic disorders, etc; 
obsessive compulsive disorders like spinners or tail-chasing & pica, are seen in the Bull Terrier.

31. Bloat: 
a dog's stomach produces excessive gas & enlarges severely-enough to cause death without immediate treatment. 
Bloat is usually associated with gastric torsion [EDIT: the stomach flips over, & twists either the esophagus 
or the small-bowel, or *both,* closed in the process; lack of blood-circulation rapidly kills tissue]. 
(also see #131.)

38. Cardiomyopathy: 
a disease of weakened heart muscles, associated with taurine deficiency in the Golden Retriever. 
Also found in giant breeds, Boxers, American Cocker Spaniels &
Doberman Pinschers.

42. Cataract: 
as in humans, a change in structure of the lens of the eye, leading to cloudiness & usually blindness.

59. Coloboma: 
an abnormal development of the eye, usually seen in the Collie, which
can lead to blindness. 
(See #58, 60, 203.)

60. Colobomas with aphakia: 
same as #60, but with congenital absence of the lens.

72. Cutaneous asthenia: 
the skin lacks normal strength, elasticity & sensation. Also called Ehlers-Danlos syndrome. 
found in several breeds, including English Springer Spaniel &
Boxer (also see #94a.)

83. Dermoid cyst: 
a small growth composed of skin-like structures.

94. Ectropion: 
an abnormal rolling out of the eyelids. [EDIT: Any but mild cases need corrective surgery, as it's *painful*.]

94a. Ehlers-Danlos syndrome: 
a connective tissue disease characterized by loose, hyperextensible & very fragile skin that tears easily. 
(also see #72.)

103. Entropion: 
an abnormal rolling in of the eyelid. [EDIT: ditto to #94]

109. Epilepsy: 
a disease characterized by convulsions (seizures) &/or disturbances
of consciousness.

114. Eversion of nictitating membrane: 
a condition in which the third-eyelid protrudes.

118. Factor I deficiency or hypofibrinogenemia: 
a rare deficiency of a clotting factor (fibrinogen), which causes excessive bleeding.

121. Factor VIII deficiency or hemophilia A: 
the most-common severe inherited clotting-disorder of humans & animals. The disorder is inherited 
as a sex-linked recessive trait (carried by females, it manifests in males). Affects most dog breeds.

122. Factor IX deficiency or hemophilia B: 
same as hemophilia A, but rarer & involves a different clotting factor.

128. [Skin-]Fold dermatitis: 
an inflammation of skin folds, especially in dogs with loose skin (e-g, Chinese Shar-Pei).

131. Gastric torsion: 
the stomach twists, impeding input & output. [EDIT: *and* blood-circulation, leading to gangrene.] 
(also see #31.)

133. Genu valgum: 
malformation of the knee joint ('knock-kneed').

140. Granulomatous sebaceous adenitis: 
a disease of sebaceous (sweat) skin glands, characterized by reactive tissue growth & autoimmune destruction 
of the sebaceous glands. Hair loss occurs; this poorly responds to treatment. Seen in the Standard Poodle, 
Akita, Samoyed & Vizsla, among others. [EDIT: can be fatal, either directly or as complications - 
affected dogs die young.]

147. Hemophilia A: 
a blood clotting disorder due to deficiency of coagulation factor VIII (this is the most common 
type of hemophilia in dogs). (also see #121.)
148. Hemophilia B: 
a blood clotting disorder due to lack of coagulation factor IX. (also see #122.)

149. Hepatic portosystemic shunt or arteriovenous fistula: 
a malformation of blood-vessels in the liver, or abnormal communication between arteries & veins 
in the liver.

152. Hip dysplasia: 
a developmental malformation or subluxation of the hip joints.

155. Hygroma: 
a fluid-filled sac, which often develops on the elbows of large breeds, such as Danes or Irish Wolfhounds.

166. Hypothyroidism: 
a common endocrine disease where the body produces an abnormally-low amount of thyroid hormones. 
This is an autoimmune destruction of the thyroid gland which affects more than 50 dog breeds. 
(also see #192, 312.)

188. Lip-fold dermatitis: 
a skin infection caused by redundant skin folds around the mouth.

198. Metabolic bone disease: 
any of a number of diseases affecting the bones due to an abnormality of metabolism.

221. Osteochondritis dissecans: 
a specific form of inflammation of the cartilage of certain joints which causes arthritis. (also see #221a.)

221a. Osteochondrosis: 
a group of developmental diseases resulting in abnormal formulation of joint cartilage. 
Commonly involves the shoulder, stifle, hock or elbow. (also see #221.)

225. Osteosarcoma: 
a cancer arising from the cells of the bones.

262. Pyometra: 
a bacterial infection of the uterus, when it fills with pus.

273a. Sebaceous adenitis: 
(See #140.)

298. Stockard's paralysis: 
a degeneration of parts of the spinal cord, causing paralysis.

325. Vaginal hyperplasia: 
an overgrowth of tissues of the vagina.

328. Vitiligo: 
a lack of pigment in the skin (called vitiligo in humans, & hypopigmentation
in non-humans). 
seen in the Rottweiler, Doberman Pinscher, Old English Sheepdog & Dachshund, among others.
(also see #161.)

329. Vogt-Koyanagi-Harada-like syndrome: 
an autoimmune disease common in the Akita & the 'sled'-dog breeds, where the eyes, blood & other tissues 
are progressively destroyed, leading to blindness & death; also called uveodermatologic syndrome.

330. von Willebrand's disease: 
a bleeding disorder caused by defective blood-platelet function (an autosomal trait, affecting both sexes). 
This occurs in over 59 dog breeds, but is most-often seen in the Doberman Pinscher.

so by age-2, along with an eye-certificate every 12-mos signed by a vet-opthalmologist, 
a Penn-HIP or similar radiograph of hips, knees & elbows, blood-test for Brucella [a k9-STD], 
& other basic tests and screens, he'd need a cardiac ultrasound by a k9-cardiologist, 
5-way or possibly 6-way thyroid panel READ BY the Michigan State Univ vet-labs, vWD-test [ditto, 
or by Jean Dodds DVM], liver & kidney enzymes via a COMPLETE blood-panel [a copy to be kept 
on file as his record of 'normal' for future ref, if needed, should he become ill], full-depth skin punches 
from at least 3 separate areas on his body [sent to a dermatologist for microscopy: Sebaceous adenitis 
test], haemophilia tests for type A & B to see if he's affected, possibly a platelet test for ANA 
[anti-nuclear antibodies], & whatever else might help eliminate possible heritable problems 
in any potential progeny.

PLUS - 
query the owners of any bitch-prospect for *their results on the same tests*,

AND *ascertain if any of Ur male's relatives, or any bitch-prospect's relatives*, 
have ever suffered bloat / GDV, epilepsy, OCD behaviors [fly-snap, lick granulomae, tail-chase, etc], 
& other heritable problems which have no vet-tests / DNA tests, yet.

Ensuring he meets the breed-standard in all respects AND has a solid temp [neither dog-aggro 
nor dog-reactive; neither human-aggro nor human-reactive; well-socialized & habituated to human 
environs, tolerant of other dogs & domestic species, not highly-predatory...] goes without saying.

fearful behaviors are extremely-heritable, so shy or easily-startled dogs are not breeding prospects.

aggression is likewise *extremely*-heritable, & sadly Saints have suffered from an increase 
in both dog-aggro and human-aggro specimens, due to 3 separate popn-booms & irresponsible 
breeders - from the 1970s, 1980s, & again in the 1990s. :nonod: Very sad - & very, very dangerous. 
a Saint who aggresses can easily kill someone - human or k9. Take it seriously, please.


----------



## swarthy

leashedForLife said:


> so by age-2, along with an eye-certificate every 12-mos signed by a vet-opthalmologist,
> a Penn-HIP or similar radiograph of hips, knees & elbows, blood-test for Brucella [a k9-STD],


I know you said "or similar" but just to clarify - the BVA schemes are more commonly used in the UK with only two vets here "qualified" to take plates for Penn-HIP.

We use the BVA scheme in the UK

BVA - Hip Scheme

Many customers here are only just starting to get their heads around BVA hipscoring without adding another scheme into the mix which most would typically associate only with imported dogs.

the BVA also offer Elbow scoring

BVA - Elbow Scheme

I would always recommend using a vet experienced in taking plates - current breeders using the scheme are probably best to talk to - I do a 200 mile round trip to get the plates done on my gang.

BVA also offer eye testing -

BVA - Eye Scheme

there are just 33 panellists across the UK for eye testing

http://www.bva.co.uk/public/documents/EP_list_Jan_2012.pdf

Dependant on where you are, it can sometimes take a while to book in an eye test,

Whilst it is renewed annually, I would strongly recommend getting a clear eye certificate before spending money doing other tests.

=======================================

Sorry LfL, but felt it important to be more specific about the general UK hipscoring scheme - otherwise, some potential novice breeders may look for scoring by that method - as above, a lot of puppy buyers are only just getting their head around the typical UK method of scoring, and recognising that imported dogs may well be scored under different schemes.


----------



## leashedForLife

swarthy said:


> ...the BVA schemes are more commonly used in the UK, with only two vets here
> *"qualified" to take plates for Penn-HIP.*


the vets who assess dogs via Penn-HIP are a lot more than 'qualified to take plates' - they are trained 
individually to do 3 poses for 3 radiographs, then use all 3 rads to determine the dog's or pup's score, 
*as compared to other dogs of the same breed*. The rads aren't mailed off to some central-point 
for another fee, then scored; they are scored right there & then, by the vet, with no added cost.

find a Penn-HIP vet anywhere in the world - 
Locate a PennHIP Vet

when i enter UNITED KINGDOM, i get 
Locate a PennHIP Vet



> _
> 
> ALDERHOLT VETERINARY SURGERY
> *DR. VAUGHN STOMAN*
> FORDINGBRIDGE ROAD, ALDERHOLT DORSET SP6 3BE
> Phone: (01425) 654202
> fax: (01425) 656099
> Alderholt and Three Cross Vets, Dorset
> 
> WEAR REFERRALS
> *DR. GERARD TE LINTELO*
> 5-11 TENTERS STREET, BISHOP AUCKLAND COUNTY DURHAM DL14 7AD
> Phone: 01388 602707
> fax: 01388 605660
> Wear Referrals
> 
> HIGHCROFT VETERINARY GROUP
> *DR. JOSEPH O.S. FOX*
> 615 WELLS RD, BRISTOL BS14 9BE
> Phone: 01275 832410
> fax: 01275 834512
> Highcroft Veterinary Group , Bristol - 01275 832410 - 24 hours, 24 emergency service
> 
> MIKE GUILLIARD ORTHOPAEDICS LIMITED
> *DR. MICHAEL GUILLIARD*
> 5 SPRINGFIELD DRIVE, CREWE CHESIRE CW2 6RA
> Phone: 07784 202026
> 
> RIDGE REFERRALS
> *DR. PATRICK RIDGE*
> JUBILEE BARN DAWLISH WATER, DAWLISH SOUTH DEVON EX7 0QW
> Phone: 0788 44 364 93
> fax: 0162 68 978 93
> Ridge Referrals Home Page
> 
> FITZPATRICK REFERRALS
> *DR. NOEL FITZPATRICK*
> HALFWAY LANE, EASHING, GODALMING SURREY GU7 2QQ
> Phone: 01483 423761
> fax: 01483 527590
> Veterinary Practice & Hospital | Specialist Orthopaedics + Neurosurgery | Fitzpatrick Referrals
> 
> NANTWICH VETERINARY HOSPITAL
> *MR. TOM GILDING*
> CREWE RD END, NANTWICH CHESIRE CW5 5SF
> Phone: 01270 610322
> fax: 01270 628367
> Nantwich Veterinary Group - Advanced veterinary services
> 
> ABINGTON PARK VETERINARY GROUP
> *DR. JEREMY ONYETT*
> MOULTON COLLEGE HOLCOT CENTRE, NORTHAMPTON NN3 7RR
> Phone: 01604 644171
> fax: 01604 644934
> Abington Park Vets | Northampton | Open 7 days a week | UK
> 
> SOUTHERN COUNTIES VETERINARY SPECIALISTS
> *DR. PHILIP WITTE*
> 6 FOREST CORNER FARM, HANGERSLEY HILL, RINGWOOD HAMPSHIRE BH24 3JW
> Phone: 01425 485615
> fax: 01425 480849
> Southern Counties Veterinary Services - Southern Counties Veterinary Specialists
> 
> THE ROYAL (DICK) SCHOOL OF VETERINARY STUDIES
> *DR. TIZIANA LIUTI*
> THE HOSPITAL FOR SMALL ANIMALS, EASTER BUSH, ROSLIN MIDLOTHIAN EH25 9RG
> Phone: +44(0)131 650 7650
> fax: +44(0)131 650 7652
> 
> THE ROYAL (DICK) SCHOOL OF VETERINARY STUDIES
> *DR. TOBIAS SCHWARZ*
> THE HOSPITAL FOR SMALL ANIMALS, EASTER BUSH, ROSLIN MIDLOTHIAN EH25 9RG
> Phone: +44(0)131 650 7650
> fax: +44(0)131 650 7652
> 
> CLOCKHOUSE VETERINARY HOSPITAL
> *DR. JONATHAN SHIPPAM*
> WALLBRIDGE, STROUD GLOUCESTERSHIRE GL5 3JD
> Phone: 01453 752555
> fax: 01453 756065
> Lansdown Veterinary Services - Clockhouse Veterinary Hospital in Stroud, and the The Veterinary Clinic in Nailsworth _


what was that about "only 2 practitioners"...? :lol: 
Dorset, Durham, Bristol, Chesire, Devon, Northampton, Surrey, Hampton, Midlothian, & Gloucestershire.

from just one of the above practitioners - 


> _
> Nantwich Veterinary Group, formerly Wilson McWilliam and Partners was established in 1877
> at 29 Barker Street. It is one of the largest veterinary practices in the country with *32 vets*
> working in the companion animal, farm animal, & equine departments.
> 
> In 1998 the small animal department moved into Nantwich Veterinary Hospital, our purpose-built
> veterinary hospital premises at Crewe Road End, where we see both our own clients & referrals from local vets.
> In addition to the veterinary hospital in Nantwich, we have branch practices in both Market Drayton & Crewe.
> Market Drayton Veterinary Surgery was opened in purpose-built premises in 2008. In 2011 we also opened
> a purpose-built Veterinary Hospital on Macon Way, Crewe. The farm animal department is also based
> at Nantwich Veterinary Hospital, on the first floor. In 2009 the equine department moved into our
> purpose-built equine clinic at Hurleston, on the A51 just north of Nantwich.
> 
> OUR NEW HOSPITAL IS NOW OPEN ON MACON WAY, CREWE.
> THESE NEW PREMISES REPLACE OUR OLD SURGERY IN BEECH STREET. OPENING HOURS ARE NOW MONDAY - FRIDAY 8.30AM - 6.30PM,
> SATURDAY 8.30AM-12.30PM. TO MAKE AN APPOINTMENT,
> TELEPHONE 01270 211022. _


there are, of course, even more practitioners across the Channel or thru the Chunnel - 
or merely a jaunt away in Galway City, Ireland - Martin O'Malley of Ark Vets.


----------



## swarthy

leashedForLife said:


> what was that about "only 2 practitioners"...? :lol:


All I can say then is that is a VERY recent update as I looked into it recently when I was also looking at the PennHip hypothesis of joint laxity and their measurement of the dogs who actually did go on to develop late onset arhritis - and the two didn't marry.

The point is, in the UK, the BVA scheme looks at many factors in hips and is acknowledged as one of the most comprehensive schemes in the world.

There certainly isn't a big movement towards using the scheme in the UK and when we last looked for hip results from Canadian dogs who had been assessed using PennHip - it was VERY difficult to get hold of formalised results - things may have changed of course - but the information I got on Vets was from their own website with both vets being in the South of the Country.

There's no need to be quite so patronising - I didn't make the information up - I got it from what should be deemed a reliable source and NOT that long ago.


----------



## terencesmum

leashedForLife said:


> the vets who assess dogs via Penn-HIP are a lot more than 'qualified to take plates' - they are trained
> individually to do 3 poses for 3 radiographs, then use all 3 rads to determine the dog's or pup's score,
> *as compared to other dogs of the same breed*. The rads aren't mailed off to some central-point
> for another fee, then scored; they are scored right there & then, by the vet, with no added cost.
> 
> find a Penn-HIP vet anywhere in the world -
> Locate a PennHIP Vet
> 
> when i enter UNITED KINGDOM, i get
> Locate a PennHIP Vet
> 
> what was that about "only 2 practitioners"...? :lol:
> Dorset, Durham, Bristol, Chesire, Devon, Northampton, Surrey, Hampton, Midlothian, & Gloucestershire.
> 
> from just one of the above practitioners -
> 
> there are, of course, even more practitioners across the Channel or thru the Chunnel -
> or merely a jaunt away in Galway City, Ireland - Martin O'Malley of Ark Vets.


Just because a practise has 32 vets doesn't mean that all those 32 vets are qualified and certified to take those tests. Maybe, a bit more to the subject of qualified vets than a bit of google cut and paste.


----------



## leashedForLife

terencesmum said:


> ...because a practise has 32 vets doesn't mean... all... 32 vets are qualified & certified to [do] those tests.


i didn't say they were - only ONE person is listed as the practitioner.  
i chose that practice because he's listed as "Mr", not "Dr". Cheers!


----------



## leashedForLife

the method - 
Distraction Index - Measuring Laxity

sample report - 
PennHIP Laxity Report

laxity & osteoarthritis - 
Laxity and Osteoarthritis

yes, i DO realize it's from the PennHIP website.  i simply thought folks might be interested.


----------



## Mysterious

petforum said:


> If you are thinking about offering your dog at stud, we have created a useful article for you to read below which will give you all the facts :
> 
> Offering your dog at stud - Pet Encyclopedia
> 
> Thanks
> Mark


Great article!


----------



## leashedForLife

> Originally Posted by *petforum*
> 
> _If you are thinking about offering your dog at stud, we have created a useful article for you to read...
> *which will give you all the facts* :
> 
> Offering your dog at stud - Pet Encyclopedia
> 
> Thanks[,]
> - Mark _


ALL the facts?... IMO, less than half, :lol:


Mysterious said:


> Great article!


really?... :blink: i thought it was very minimal. 


> _
> 
> Will my [Dog's] Temperament Change?
> 
> When your dog is with a bitch that is in season[,] you will find his natural instinct will take over.
> He will become less interested in you or what you have to say[,] as his thoughts will be focused on the bitch.
> The scent of the bitch will take over his senses *but it will not alter his temperament*, though
> *in some cases it can make him less sociable with other male dogs*.
> 
> He will of course be more aware of bitches, but on the other hand *most experienced stud dogs
> do not pester bitches that are about to[,] or have recently[,] come out of season [ -- ]
> [they] will show only cursory interest in a bitch until she is absolutely ready for mating,
> usually no more than a four or five day period during her 3 week or more season. *_


*

really? :skep: i've known experienced multi-litter sires who've been absolute pests to every female, 
pups to grandma-age, intact or long-since spayed - AND i've known intact-males who've only sired 
one litter who became absolute idiots every time there was a bitch in / close to estrus, within 2-miles 
of their home... off their feed, whining incessantly, trying to leap, dig, bolt, etc, to get to the bitch, 
for weeks on end - often a month or more.

claiming that "most males will only be interested for a couple of days..." is IME massive understatement!*


----------



## Malmum

Irrelevant I know but DR Noel Fitzpatrick is now Professor Noel Fitzpatrick.


----------



## kalindra

reena said:


> To be used for stud your dog needs to be ALC registered and he should already have his Ch title.They most likey are a few tests that should be done to make sure he is free from genetic defects. Hip displasia would be an example but this veries from breed to breed so find out what your breed needs to be tested for.
> Once your dog has completed his Ch title you will have meet many other people who own your breed and some of them will want to use your dog for stud if they feel he will complement their female.
> You do not pay vet bills for the female and you charge a fee usually equal to the price of a puppy or you get pick of the litter.
> If your dog is not AkC registered you do not have much of a stud prospect and if he is not shown and proven to be breeding quality he is not really worth much as a stud except to someone who is breeding dogs for profit.
> He is a nice looking dog.
> -------------
> Reena
> 
> Guaranteed ROI


I don't believe that any stud dog worthwhile has to be a champion! Showing does not prove that your dog is of breeding quality, and many people like to breed because it is enjoyable, not just for profit!
In my experience, dog showing (conformation) is terribly corrupt. It's more about who you know than what your dog is like!
When I bred my Border collie, I used a local dog (KC reg of course) who was mainly a pet (he had competed in obedience). So no it's not just people who are doing it for a profit!


----------



## swarthy

kalindra said:


> I don't believe that any stud dog worthwhile has to be a champion! Showing does not prove that your dog is of breeding quality, and many people like to breed because it is enjoyable, not just for profit!
> In my experience, dog showing (conformation) is terribly corrupt. It's more about who you know than what your dog is like!
> When I bred my Border collie, I used a local dog (KC reg of course) who was mainly a pet (he had competed in obedience). So no it's not just people who are doing it for a profit!


What exactly is "corrupt" about showing - if it was about "who you know" - tell me how unknown newcomers to the showring are making up their first dog?

Unknowns getting Junior Warrants and Show Certificates of Merit with their first homebred pup

Doesn't really tally with your perception - if you haven't shown then how can you make such a litigious comment? if you have shown - maybe the dogs you showed weren't good enough.

You are right in that a dog doesn't have to be a champion to be bred from - if everyone adhered to that there would be a LOT of breeds in serious trouble. Some of the most prolific producers in my own breed were never made up, but have numerous progeny who were.

However, things may be different in the US - there are more dogs and probably more Champions - with AI being much more the norm than it is here - so whilst distances are greater, the choice of top dogs is probably also much broader.

Few pet people will have a good knowledge of their breed standard and would struggle to identify specific faults or strengths on a dog - so consequently, won't be able to pick the best possible stud for their bitch.

Those judging don't start doing so above Companion level without attending breed specific seminars, possibly conformation and movement seminars and taking and passing conformation assessments.

You cannot get into the higher echelances of judging without meeting a stiff criteria.

========================

Anyone who breeds responsibly and has several health-tests required before breeding is highly unlikely to make a profit - irrespective of whether they show or not.

if I buy a dog in, I won't get any change from £1,500 by the time the dog has been fully health-tested - that's before looking at pre-mates, stud dog fees, scans etc. not to mention the ridiculous cost of fuel when travelling to stud dogs etc - I will be lucky to get any change from around £140 in fuel costs with the next stud dog I plan to use.

===============

ETA - you mentioned the dog you used was KC registered - but no mention of health-tests - KC registration is isolation means you can trace a dogs ancestry - it says nothing about the health of the dog.


----------



## kalindra

swarthy said:


> What exactly is "corrupt" about showing - if it was about "who you know" - tell me how unknown newcomers to the showring are making up their first dog?
> 
> Unknowns getting Junior Warrants and Show Certificates of Merit with their first homebred pup
> 
> Doesn't really tally with your perception - if you haven't shown then how can you make such a litigious comment? if you have shown - maybe the dogs you showed weren't good enough.
> 
> You are right in that a dog doesn't have to be a champion to be bred from - if everyone adhered to that there would be a LOT of breeds in serious trouble. Some of the most prolific producers in my own breed were never made up, but have numerous progeny who were.
> 
> However, things may be different in the US - there are more dogs and probably more Champions - with AI being much more the norm than it is here - so whilst distances are greater, the choice of top dogs is probably also much broader.
> 
> Few pet people will have a good knowledge of their breed standard and would struggle to identify specific faults or strengths on a dog - so consequently, won't be able to pick the best possible stud for their bitch.
> 
> Those judging don't start doing so above Companion level without attending breed specific seminars, possibly conformation and movement seminars and taking and passing conformation assessments.
> 
> You cannot get into the higher echelances of judging without meeting a stiff criteria.
> 
> ========================
> 
> Anyone who breeds responsibly and has several health-tests required before breeding is highly unlikely to make a profit - irrespective of whether they show or not.
> 
> if I buy a dog in, I won't get any change from £1,500 by the time the dog has been fully health-tested - that's before looking at pre-mates, stud dog fees, scans etc. not to mention the ridiculous cost of fuel when travelling to stud dogs etc - I will be lucky to get any change from around £140 in fuel costs with the next stud dog I plan to use.
> 
> ===============
> 
> ETA - you mentioned the dog you used was KC registered - but no mention of health-tests - KC registration is isolation means you can trace a dogs ancestry - it says nothing about the health of the dog.


Note I said "in my experience". My mum has been showing German Shepherds for over 20 years, and she has recently given up due to the fact that many judges did not adhere to the proper defined breed standard, putting up dogs that were terribly unsound. I noticed with Border collies too. I was at a championship show some time ago, and a very prolific winner had bitten the judge in the ring, only to win the CC and Best of Breed! If I was the judge, that dog would be disqualified. Maybe it is down to the breed. We have recently started showing Keeshonds and have enjoyed many wins including a CC, RCC and Group 3 at a big champ show.

And when I mentioned KC registered, I assumed that anyone who registers with the KC are likely to do their health tests. Maybe I assumed wrong 
Of course both parents were hip, eye and hearing tested.


----------



## queensheba

Okay - long thread - lots to think about.

The thought did cross my mind - although my dog was bought in France so he's SCC registered - not KC. Does that make a difference?

Would adding a french dog to the UK pool be beneficial for the breed?

The munchkin is only 5 months old so it's a long way off before I need to do anything but wanted to mull over the pros and cons.

Pros are definitely that he's a fantastic example of the breed - met quite a fair few snappy, stocky and pudgy beagles recently - he's extremely friendly, adores children (even the sound of their voices) - great with other dogs - nice and lean ~(as is the rest of his family from that breeder) - his dad was best in breed at show - i'm sure he would do well but it's a lot of specific training, travel and cost just to even get to a show and I don't speak a huge amount of French. As a working dog he also shines- his nose is excellent already and he's quite the little digger as well as being agile and fast!

Cons are the change in temperament - could I live with that for a few years? Hard to tell - I don't know what it would be like.

I know many have given lots of advice already - I have read it and taken it on board so no need to repeat anything that's already been said.

cheers


----------



## leashedForLife

queensheba said:


> ...my dog was bought in France so he's SCC registered - not KC.
> Does that make a difference?


most registries accept the pedigrees of other legit registries - 
check the KC rules about registering from other organizations. 
U usually submit paperwork & a fee to cross-register.


queensheba said:


> Would adding a french dog to the UK pool [benefit] the breed?


impossible to say - but determining his Coefficient of Inbreeding with any prospective bitch is 
absolutely mandatory; that he was bred & born in France does not mean he has no 'relatives' in the UK. 
He probly has relatives in the USA, other Euro-countries, & Aussies & Canadians, too.
Beagles are global - they are quite popular in Japan, despite their barking which is problematic 
in crowded urban living & small homes with close neighbors.


queensheba said:


> Pros are *definitely... he's a fantastic example of the [Beagle] breed -
> met... a fair few snappy, stocky & pudgy Beagles recently - he's extremely friendly, adores children
> ... great with other dogs - nice & lean... his dad was BiB at [a] show -
> 
> i'm sure he'd do well [in the show ring], but it's a lot of specific training, travel & cost just to... get to
> a show & I don't speak [much] French. *


* 
sorry - breeding is a PUT UP or SHUT-UP gamble; backyard breeders & extra-=income breeders 
are producing plenty of pups every year from unscreened, untested, never-shown dogs who only have 
a pedigree & a registration number; they can be lousy specimens, have heritable health problems, 
have terrible temperaments [highly-heritable], have allergies [heritable], bad structure [heritable], 
have been bred underage [such progeny are even more-likely to have health issues, shorter lifespans, etc], 
& more.

if U want to be regarded as legitimate, INVEST in Ur dog: test for heritable problems, WAIT till he's 2-YO 
to breed, radiograph his joints [hips, knees, elbows] & have them rated by PennHIP or the KC-scheme, 
& show the dog.

U don't have to go to France to show him - cross-register to the KC & get to local shows. 
All of Britain isn't as big as many USA-states; claiming it's too far to travel & too expensive will not 
win U any sympathy from folks who show their dogs here, :lol: 


queensheba said:



As a [hunting] dog he also shines- his nose is excellent... & he's quite the little digger, as well as 
being agile and fast!

Click to expand...

does anyone in the family hunt?

Desexing him & competing in agility or other dog-sports is another option. 
Beagles are very prone to F-A-T, so exercise is paramount - so is controlling intake; no free-feeding! 
measured meals 2x a day, & monitoring his body-condition, are essential. 


queensheba said:



Cons are [a stud's] change in temperament - could I live with that for a few years? 
Hard to tell - I don't know what it would be like.

Click to expand...

U don't live with it 'for a few years' - it's not as if he behaves like a dog who was neutered at 6-MO, 
when U retire him from stud at 5 or 6-YO after 3 to 4 years of breeding him! It's permanent - 
many things, like MARKING when he sees or smells another intact-M or a F in estrous, can be problems 
for life. Leg-lifting in the house when he sees a male outdoors leg-lift thru a window, is another common 
hassle with both intact-Ms of any age past 5-MO & up, & former-studs... it's a habit, triggered by seeing 
another dog mark in male fashion.


queensheba said:



...many have given lots of advice... no need to repeat anything that's already been said.

Click to expand...

if U've read the whole thread, then U know that there are many health-tests that a vet would need to do, 
to insure that he's not going to pass on his own heritable health-issues to his offspring; every dog has those 
heritable flaws, whether behavioral, physical structure, color & coat, metabolic, etc - only TESTING 
can assure U that he's free of X, Y & Z, & even if he's a carrier for A.C, & M, simply not choosing another 
carrier of the same flaws as the bitch - who of course has ALSO been screened by the owner, 
avoids that / those specific issue.

According to a k9-geneticist, the average dog of any breed in the USA carries FIVE deleterious genes - 
no matter whether s/he is purebred, crossbred of known breeds, or random-bred of unknown parentage.*


----------



## queensheba

That's really helpful - thanks. I think that's the main thing is once he's neutered the behaviour won't stop. If it was a case of a couple of years of studding then getting him the snip and it would stop - that would be fine but not if it goes on the rest of his life. We currently live in the mountains so there are a fair few dogs around - intact males and neutered...we won't necessarily always live here - I don't know the rest of the plans for life yet.

I do know I want another dog though...so I guess that's going to have an influence too.

cheers for all your help,


----------



## JadeEmma

I've never bred any animals before, but does anybody know when is the right age to stud a dog? Mine's still young but we may think about studding at some point in the future x


----------



## leashedForLife

JadeEmma said:


> ...when is the right age to stud a dog?
> Mine's still young but we may think about [breeding him], at some point in the future x


Frankly, *never* if he's not an excellent representative, has a less than stellar temperament, 
fails any of the recommended health-checks FOR HIS BREED, & so on.

Read the thread - 
all dogs, whether M or F, should not be bred before age 24-mos minimum, as research shows that 
over-85% of the heritable problems that might manifest in an individual dog, will show symptoms 
by 2-YO. That means even things which cannot be tested for, are likely to reveal themselves - 
saving us from inadvertently producing pups who later have some inherited health or structure issue.

Also, not breeding till both the [screened!] dam & [screened!] stud are at least 2-YO adds an average 
of an additional 2-years to the lifespan of their puppies - the cheapest & easiest way known, 
to increase longevity. :thumbup:


----------



## tan160581

I just brought a blue tri british bulldog from abroad and and he has all the best lines and kc registered and i fell in love with him but the conditions were that i keep him as a stud as a waste not to use him, however what age can you start to stud and what tests will i need to get down first before i start advertising out and also i heard bulldog mating is hard that i would need to get involved as bull dogs can not do this himself 

I was told that even if i have him as a stud as a bulldog is so lazy i would be able to have him in my home and be a pet to me as well, is that true


----------



## Lexiedhb

Surely this should have been a really short thread:

'Thinking about offering your dog at Stud?'

PLEASE DON'T!


----------



## jo5

Lexiedhb said:


> Surely this should have been a really short thread:
> 
> 'Thinking about offering your dog at Stud?'
> 
> PLEASE DON'T!


This is an informative thread and does actually give more reasons why its a bad idea more than a good idea. I must say that I find the sweeping sentiment of don't breed rescue a rather offensive one to be honest. Good breeding should be encouraged and above all puppy buyers should take more responsibility when purchasing a pup, without buyers the puppy farms would soon go out of business. Not everyone is able to rescue due to rescue centres criteria, I for one couldn't when our cavie died I drew a blank with rescues our family circumstances didn't fit so we were refused, if it wasn't for a damn good breeder who gave us a chance to prove ourselves as owners and took the time to breed healthy, health tested, well bred pups then I wouldn't have the pleasure of owning dogs now. Education is the key to buyers as well as breeders not condemnation


----------



## newfiesmum

tan160581 said:


> I just brought a blue tri british bulldog from abroad and and he has all the best lines and kc registered and i fell in love with him but the conditions were that i keep him as a stud as a waste not to use him, however what age can you start to stud and what tests will i need to get down first before i start advertising out and also i heard bulldog mating is hard that i would need to get involved as bull dogs can not do this himself
> 
> I was told that even if i have him as a stud as a bulldog is so lazy i would be able to have him in my home and be a pet to me as well, is that true


Not sure what you mean by the last sentence, but a bulldog is no different to any other dog in that respect. You can still keep a stud dog as a pet, but mating does often change a dog's temperament, and that goes for bitches as well. I am not a breeder, but I believe bulldogs suffer a whole host of health problems which need testing for.

Contact the Bulldog breed club and they will be able to tell you more.


----------



## Lexiedhb

jo5 said:


> This is an informative thread and does actually give more reasons why its a bad idea more than a good idea. I must say that I find the sweeping sentiment of don't breed rescue a rather offensive one to be honest. Good breeding should be encouraged and above all puppy buyers should take more responsibility when purchasing a pup, without buyers the puppy farms would soon go out of business. Not everyone is able to rescue due to rescue centres criteria, I for one couldn't when our cavie died I drew a blank with rescues our family circumstances didn't fit so we were refused, if it wasn't for a damn good breeder who gave us a chance to prove ourselves as owners and took the time to breed healthy, health tested, well bred pups then I wouldn't have the pleasure of owning dogs now. Education is the key to buyers as well as breeders not condemnation


I never mentioned rescue- but that is where alot of these litters will end up if some of the people on this thread decide to breed- lets be honest folk trying their dogs at 6 months of age are NOT the type of people who should be breeding dogs period.

My statement was more in response to the fact that this "article" was written by a guy who has

PETS4HOMES
Free Pet Advertising in the UK at Pets4Homes
Dogs - Puppies - Pets - Cats - Kittens for Sale

As his signature- hardly where a responsible breeder would advertise pups.


----------



## jo5

Lexiedhb said:


> I never mentioned rescue- but that is where alot of these litters will end up if some of the people on this thread decide to breed- lets be honest folk trying their dogs at 6 months of age are NOT the type of people who should be breeding dogs period.
> 
> My statement was more in response to the fact that this "article" was written by a guy who has
> 
> PETS4HOMES
> Free Pet Advertising in the UK at Pets4Homes
> Dogs - Puppies - Pets - Cats - Kittens for Sale
> 
> As his signature- hardly where a responsible breeder would advertise pups.


You didn't need to mention it, your statement along with your sig did that, this whole forum is affiliated with Pets for homes so there is no avoiding it really, but this thread is agreeing with what you are saying so not sure why you have the attitude you do to it? If just one of those coming on here for advice on how to stud their dog takes notice of the posts and decides against it then job done . Unfortunately Joe Public is ignorant to the issues involved in breeding and think putting their dog together with next doors is a good idea, they just need educating that its not such a good idea after all and ther is a lot more involved than 'putting them together' and hoping for the best. Without threads like this how will they learn???


----------



## tan160581

Thanks for getting back to me I meant can you have them indoors or will they spray all over the furniture and be aggressive as I want him to live indoors with me but when I brought animals in past I seen people keep them outside in a kennel so just wondered


----------



## Lexiedhb

jo5 said:


> You didn't need to mention it, your statement along with your sig did that, this whole forum is affiliated with Pets for homes so there is no avoiding it really, but this thread is agreeing with what you are saying so not sure why you have the attitude you do to it? If just one of those coming on here for advice on how to stud their dog takes notice of the posts and decides against it then job done . Unfortunately Joe Public is ignorant to the issues involved in breeding and think putting their dog together with next doors is a good idea, they just need educating that its not such a good idea after all and ther is a lot more involved than 'putting them together' and hoping for the best. Without threads like this how will they learn???


I dont have an attitude LOL, and on one line of a sig you read a whole lot into "what I seem to think"- just hope and pray many on this thread decided against using their dog as a stud. I VERY much doubt it tho.


----------



## newfiesmum

tan160581 said:


> Thanks for getting back to me I meant can you have them indoors or will they spray all over the furniture and be aggressive as I want him to live indoors with me but when I brought animals in past I seen people keep them outside in a kennel so just wondered


There's no reason why he should be aggressive unless mating him does change his personality, but as to whether he will spray is one of those things. Some dogs do, some don't. Before my newfie I always had intact male dogs and they never sprayed at all and Ferdie was neutered at 2. He never sprayed either. As to keeping a dog in a kennel, that has to do with preference. Not something I would do, but there are many that do.


----------



## jem jem

Lexiedhb said:


> I dont have an attitude LOL, and on one line of a sig you read a whole lot into "what I seem to think"- just hope and pray many on this thread decided against using their dog as a stud. I VERY much doubt it tho.


Hi I found this thread very useful as I was thinking of studding my saint but after reading the comments on here have decided its not in mine or his best interest without threads like this I would not have known all the facts and might not have come to this decision.
So you can "very much doubt it" all u like but just because we (me and the other people who posted) dont know all there is to know about dogs and breeding at least we ask instead of just going ahead not thinking of dogs involved so if u dont think this thread is needed maybe you can suggest a better way to inform people of responsible breeding.


----------



## leashedForLife

Lexiedhb said:


> I don't have an attitude... & [re] one line of a sig, you read a whole lot into "what I seem to think"-
> _ just hope and pray that many on this thread decided against using their dog as a stud.
> I VERY much doubt it tho._


_
Unfortunately, by the time the APO might join a forum [and few do], if they think their dog is gorgeous - 
& who doesn't? -- they may very well have already made that decision. IME, all the education & facts in the world 
won't alter that decision, once they've made it, sadly. 



[Originally Posted by *Jem jem*]

I found this thread very useful... 
I [considered] studding my Saint, but after reading the comments on here have decided its not in 
my or his best interest. 
Without threads like this, I would not have known all the facts, & might not have come to this decision.

...you can "very much doubt it" all u like... we (me and the other people who posted) 
[may not] know all there is to know about dogs & breeding, [but] at least we ask instead of just going ahead, 
not thinking of the dogs involved...

if u... think this thread is [unnecessary], maybe you can suggest a better way to inform ppl of responsible breeding.

Click to expand...

i'm very glad U found it helpful & informative! :thumbsup: I'm even happier that U've decided not to use Ur dog 
as a sire - half the dogs born are male, & obviously not all would be excellent breed-examples, or if bred, 
could lose their "pet" quality by posturing at other males, pestering females, & so forth.

The sticky "Necessary tests before breeding" on the Dog Breeding sub-forum has excellent info 
on breed-specific screening to be done before dogs are bred. A forum-search for "responsible breeding" 
should bring up loads of other posts & threads. :yesnod:_


----------



## Lexiedhb

leashedForLife said:


> Unfortunately, by the time the APO might join a forum [and few do], if they think their dog is gorgeous -
> & who doesn't? -- they may very well have already made that decision. IME, all the education & facts in the world
> won't alter that decision, once they've made it, sadly.
> 
> i:


My point exactly! I would also hope that anyone actually considering doing this goes and seeks advise from someone with experience in the flesh, as forums can be a source of misinformation at the best of times!


----------



## swarthy

tan160581 said:


> Thanks for getting back to me I meant can you have them indoors or will they spray all over the furniture and be aggressive as I want him to live indoors with me but when I brought animals in past I seen people keep them outside in a kennel so just wondered


As I understand it, it's cats that generally tend to "spray".

If you mean might they scent mark, then yes, possibly. My eldest boy (well bred, shown and fully health-tested - good hips and elbows, clear eyes eyes and genetically clear for PRA, CNM and EIC) scent marked for a short period after his first bitch - (I do also have four entire bitches) - but it didn't last very long.

As for temperament - certainly no issues there - I've yet to find anything that phases him - bombproof is the word that immediately springs to mind - and he wouldn't know aggression if it jumped up and bit him on the backside (which it has - he wouldn't know how to respond).

I've yet to meet any other Lab used at stud showing any change of personality - but that might be by the very nature of the breed.


----------



## kodakkuki

swarthy said:


> As I understand it, it's cats that generally tend to "spray".
> 
> If you mean might they scent mark, then yes, possibly. My eldest boy (well bred, shown and fully health-tested - good hips and elbows, clear eyes eyes and genetically clear for PRA, CNM and EIC) scent marked for a short period after his first bitch - (I do also have four entire bitches) - but it didn't last very long.
> 
> As for temperament - certainly no issues there - I've yet to find anything that phases him - bombproof is the word that immediately springs to mind - and he wouldn't know aggression if it jumped up and bit him on the backside (which it has - he wouldn't know how to respond).
> 
> *I've yet to meet any other Lab used at stud showing any change of personality - but that might be by the very nature of the breed*.


I've known of a few yorkie boys to change after studding; it seems to exaggerate certain breed traits in some dogs. for example, yorkshire _Terriers _(as many people seem to forget they are) can be possessive, vocal and headstrong at the best of times, so as you can imagine they can be quite a terror if they are after something- and if it's a bitch in heat they smell knowing what it means, or even another intact male dog... sometimes its a very good thing they are teeny tiny and easily controlled on lead.


----------



## leashedForLife

kodakkuki said:


> I've known... a few Yorkie boys [who changed after breeding]; it seems to exaggerate certain
> breed traits in some dogs.
> 
> ...Yorkshire _Terriers_ (as many people seem to forget they are) can be possessive, vocal, & headstrong
> at the best of times, so as you can imagine, they can be quite a terror if they're after something -
> & if [a male Yorkie smells] a bitch in heat [& knows] what it means, or even [sees or smells] another intact male...
> sometimes it's a very good thing [that] they're teeny-tiny, & easily controlled on-lead.


:thumbsup: Agreed -

a friend of mine in Pennsy, USA, is a JRT-breeder, & she actually separates her dog & bitch-pups by sex 
when they reach 5-WO & get off their bellies, as the boys will incessantly harass & bully their sisters 
'til they force a fight; she shuttles Mom-dog back & forth between the 2 sets of pups like a badminton-birdie. :lol:

She also has experienced adult-dogs of both sexes to 'baby-sit' the pups when Mom-dog is with 
the other gender; they keep the pups company, oversee play, split confrontations, teach manners, etc.

Babs also says that, much as she loves her chosen breed [and she *does* love her JR Terrierrrrists], 
"If Jack-Russells weighed 120# instead of 12, they'd live in zoos & be on the Endangered List."  

i think she's absolutely right: their combo of intense predatory, easily excitable, & won't quit a fight 
makes them a right-royal PITA for a novice owner - plus they think rings around ppl who aren't prepared 
for their brains plus speed - by the time U realize what they have in mind, it's too late to stop them, 
unless U have some prior insight into terrierrrrrists!


----------



## swarthy

kodakkuki said:


> I've known of a few yorkie boys to change after studding; it seems to exaggerate certain breed traits in some dogs. for example, yorkshire _Terriers _(as many people seem to forget they are) can be possessive, vocal and headstrong at the best of times, so as you can imagine they can be quite a terror if they are after something- and if it's a bitch in heat they smell knowing what it means, or even another intact male dog... sometimes its a very good thing they are teeny tiny and easily controlled on lead.


My last GSD pup's breeder (more years ago than I care to remember) owned a Yorkie - it took little guessing to know exactly who ruled the roost - it most certainly wasn't the big dogs  she kept each and every one of them in check :lol: :lol:

In my experience, many little dogs have personalities and attitudes far outweighing their size.

My friend has 5 Labs, a cross staffie and a JRT pup - titch keeps then all under control.

In years of owning and several years working with dogs, apart from getting caught in play - the only true bites I've had have all come from dogs below calf level :yikes: I got caught by a dachsie once - lifted my hand up with said dog still attached

I've been bitten by a King Charles Spaniel whilst assisting in a mating - and almost savaged by a Cairn Terrier who came through the gate and clearly didn't like my trousers (thank god they were flares!!!!) - needless to say - that one didn't stay - the boss send owner and dog home with a flea in their ear - no idea whether the owner got her holiday or not 

-------------------------------------------------

So yes, I can imagine in some dogs, being used for mating could easily change their personalities and emphasise certain traits - but as for my eldest lab - it's made him even more laid back than ever - he is presently being tormented by my two youngest girls and loving every minute of it - if they stop - he goes back for more 

One of my girls used to spend half her day humping him with them running around the garden hanging on to his ears - never once have I seen him tell her off.

Mind you - both boys can develop the strength of 10 men if they smell a bitch ready for mating (just in season doesn't bother them) - my youngest unused boy being stronger and much more stubborn than the older one 

All the Lab boys I've met whether used occasionally or regularly, seem to retain their laid back chillax attitude to life.


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## mvpdogs

I have a boxer that is 5 years old. Are there any age restrictions? Please do let me know the obligations I need to fulfill. Thanks a lot.


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## dexter

mvpdogs said:


> I have a boxer that is 5 years old. Are there any age restrictions? Please do let me know the obligations I need to fulfill. Thanks a lot.


are you planning on putting him to stud? if so read this link . health tests are a must!

London & Home Counties Boxer Club


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## ChristianReneFriborg

I have a princess type shih tzu, she's about one year old now. I'm just scared that it'll be hard for her to get married because she's too small. I need some advice. Thanks!


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## cinnamontoast

ChristianReneFriborg said:


> I have a princess type shih tzu, she's about one year old now. I'm just scared that it'll be hard for her to get married because she's too small. I need some advice. Thanks!


Too young right now. If she's a teacup size, then it is, IMO, ethically wrong to breed from a tiny bitch. Also, health tests are essential and this is the dog stud thread!!


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## swarthy

leashedForLife said:


> ALL the facts?... IMO, less than half, :lol:
> 
> really?... :blink: i thought it was very minimal.
> 
> really? :skep: i've known experienced multi-litter sires who've been absolute pests to every female,
> pups to grandma-age, intact or long-since spayed - AND i've known intact-males who've only sired
> one litter who became absolute idiots every time there was a bitch in / close to estrus, within 2-miles
> of their home... off their feed, whining incessantly, trying to leap, dig, bolt, etc, to get to the bitch,
> for weeks on end - often a month or more.
> 
> claiming that "most males will only be interested for a couple of days..." is IME massive understatement!


Every dog is different (and there will, I suspect, inevitably be variations in breeds which all have different characteristics)

Some dogs are sex pests from the minute they hit puberty (and some even before that) - one of my pups from my first litter was a real sex pest - and not just with dogs, his owners had no option but to neuter him early - in his case it did the trick. They also own a neutered girl, and a half sister of the boy - she is still entire - and they don't get any problems at all.

As I've said many times on here, and as a member discovered recently - neutering doesn't stop the dog mating and tying with a bitch and all the risks that unsupervised matings carry 

A dog with a switched on nose, experienced or otherwise, can quite easily only be bothered about bitches when they are ready for mating - and the regularly used stud dogs IME are not in the least bit phased by a bitch in season.

Both my boys - one used, one not - only get het up if the girls are ready for mating - my younger (unused) boy is far more a handful when the girls are ready for mating than my used boy who now takes it in his stride.

Previously, the older boy used to spend a lot of time outside when the girls were ready for mating (his choice and where he was happiest) - but since being used - he's really not bothered where he is anymore.


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## ChristianReneFriborg

cinammontoast said:


> Too young right now. If she's a teacup size, then it is, IMO, ethically wrong to breed from a tiny bitch. Also, health tests are essential and this is the dog stud thread!!


Oh, thanks! I'll just get my dog health tests.


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## cinnamontoast

ChristianReneFriborg said:


> Oh, thanks! I'll just get my dog health tests.


Does princess size mean tiny? So you'll just go ahead and have her tested (properly, not health checks, I mean hip and elbow scores, eye tests everything else the breed club recommends?!) and breed her regardless? Lovely. Troll.


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## jo5

swarthy said:


> Every dog is different (and there will, I suspect, inevitably be variations in breeds which all have different characteristics)
> 
> Some dogs are sex pests from the minute they hit puberty (and some even before that) - one of my pups from my first litter was a real sex pest - and not just with dogs, his owners had no option but to neuter him early - in his case it did the trick. They also own a neutered girl, and a half sister of the boy - she is still entire - and they don't get any problems at all.
> 
> As I've said many times on here, and as a member discovered recently - neutering doesn't stop the dog mating and tying with a bitch and all the risks that unsupervised matings carry
> 
> A dog with a switched on nose, experienced or otherwise, can quite easily only be bothered about bitches when they are ready for mating - and the regularly used stud dogs IME are not in the least bit phased by a bitch in season.
> 
> Both my boys - one used, one not - only get het up if the girls are ready for mating - my younger (unused) boy is far more a handful when the girls are ready for mating than my used boy who now takes it in his stride.
> 
> Previously, the older boy used to spend a lot of time outside when the girls were ready for mating (his choice and where he was happiest) - but since being used - he's really not bothered where he is anymore.


My boy has only been used on my girl (he won't be studded out to other bitches my personal decision) I have to say he is totally unchanged and only ever gets interested when Belle is at her fertile time, he never bothers her otherwise and he doesn't go 'bitching' when we are on walks, he is just as gentle and mild mannered as he ever was . He has never been and still isn't a 'humper' . As already said all dogs are different but my experience is along the same lines as Swarthy (I don't mean I am as experienced as her just that I have had the same experience with my dog lol)


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## swarthy

jo5 said:


> As already said all dogs are different but my experience is along the same lines as Swarthy (I don't mean I am as experienced as her just that I have had the same experience with my dog lol)


I am very much a beginner when it comes to being a stud dog owner and whilst obviously didn't need any help on the health testing front - I have a couple of excellent mentors without whom I don't think I would ever have got kick-started.

It never ceases to amaze me the amount of people whose maiden dogs and bitches dogs happily get together without any support - and don't do anything to struggle once the tie happens (which can hurt a maiden bitch and be very strange for a new stud dog) - my boy turned himself on his last mating and then decided he wanted to lay down - the bitch 15 minutes later (it was a LONG tie) decided she wanted to sit down.

Without supervision it could have done untold damage to either or both dogs.

I can understand to a certain extent a bitch who has previously been mated being a willing co-conspirator in an accidental mating - but do struggle to understand the number of supposed accidental maiden to maiden matings, particularly so when we are talking medium and large breed dogs.


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## rocco33

I think it is unpredictable whether or not being used as a stud dog changes the dog. In spite of the few good experiences that have been mentioned, I do know labradors that have been changed - perhaps not noticably to a pet owner, but enough for an experienced handler to wish they hadn't used them at stud.

It also depends on what you view as 'acceptable' behaviour. Some pet owners aren't even aware that their male dogs are bitching and being a pain around bitches (or neutered males) or a pain around other entire dogs, at the other end of the scale, they would no doubt notice if a dogs starting peeing indoors or being aggressive around other male dogs.


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## leashedForLife

"teacup" is often no more nor less than a nice PC-term for a breeder to hike the price on a runt - 
who may or may not be as healthy as their littermates, dam, or sire.

"princess" is pure-BS as a modifier, in my frank personal opinion.

*Breeding any bitch who's under the breed-standard is higher risk, NOT desirable, & perpetuates the 
common complications of undersized pups:* respiratory & nursing / feeding issues, organ abnormalities, 
circulatory congenital problems [liver shunt, kidney shunt, PDA...], failure to thrive, etc, *plus* the added 
risk of a Caesarian-section, which procedure starts in the USA at $1,200-USA & goes up from there, depending 
upon what other 'extras' are needed: antibiotics, blood transfusion, IV-fluids, oxytocin to get mom-dog to bond
& milk to secrete/ flow, bandaging, 
suture removal, any & all complications.

"*king*" is also a pure-bull modifier, as it refers to dogs of either gender who are oversize for 
the breed standard.  "King" GSD, Poodle, Dobe, etc - bull, it's just hype, & often the dogs are 
structurally poor specimens, or the dogs are bred with zero joint-assessment of either the sire or the dam, 
meaning the ginormous oversize-pups, ALREADY prone to joint issues, have unknown genes for hip, elbow, 
or knee anatomy-potential.

Remember, U can't make crap genes better; U *Can!* make great genes express themselves as crap-outcomes, 
by overfeeding a pup / rapid weight gain on young joints, poor traction underfoot where the pup is reared 
[slick hardwood, lino, tile, marble...], or forced exercise - which IMO does not include a pup who easily WALKS 
up stairs, unforced.


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## blakesmum

just wanted to say i think this is a great sticky!! informative and good debating


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## Wilmer

> I can understand to a certain extent a bitch who has previously been mated being a willing co-conspirator in an accidental mating - but do struggle to understand the number of supposed accidental maiden to maiden matings, particularly so when we are talking medium and large breed dogs.


I have no personal experience with breeding, but given the enthusiasm with which stray and feral dogs reproduce (albeit with an unknown amount of death and injury in the process) there must be a least a small number of maidens/unprovens who can mate effectively.

That said, I can't see why a caring owner wouldn't do everything they could by way of supervision and experienced help to reduce injuries and problems to their absolute minimum.

I do agree though, that given the amount of successful "accidental" pregnancies on here, I doubt many are true accidents...


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## swarthy

queensheba said:


> That's really helpful - thanks. I think that's the main thing is once he's neutered the behaviour won't stop. If it was a case of a couple of years of studding then getting him the snip and it would stop - that would be fine but not if it goes on the rest of his life. We currently live in the mountains so there are a fair few dogs around - intact males and neutered...we won't necessarily always live here - I don't know the rest of the plans for life yet.
> 
> I do know I want another dog though...so I guess that's going to have an influence too.
> 
> cheers for all your help,


If your dog was bred in France, you need to get him an ATC number from the UK KC.

if you are domiciled here permanently, he can I believe be registered with the UK KC as an Import.

It really doesn't matter where your dog was bred - as has already been pointed out - lines can criss cross over many countries - certainly in Labs, most dogs come back to UK breeding at some point.

I have two friends who own a half brother and sister (same sire) - one lives on the South Coast of England), the other lives in South West France - and one of my pups (5.5 now) also lives with her in South West France.

Showing in France is very different to the UK - firstly, the distances travelled are by default going to be much bgger - the rules are also different - exhibitors have to stay for the entire day - in the UK we can leave CH shows (with the exception of Crufts) once we have done our classes


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## ChristianReneFriborg

cinammontoast said:


> Does princess size mean tiny? So you'll just go ahead and have her tested (properly, not health checks, I mean hip and elbow scores, eye tests everything else the breed club recommends?!) and breed her regardless? Lovely. Troll.


Yeah, she's only 9 pounds as of today. I'll get her tested tomorrow.


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## swarthy

Wilmer said:


> I have no personal experience with breeding, but given the enthusiasm with which stray and feral dogs reproduce (albeit with an unknown amount of death and injury in the process) there must be a least a small number of maidens/unprovens who can mate effectively.


I think with feral and stray dogs - basic needs and survival instinct kicks in (particularly so with stray dogs - as it will already be there with feral dogs). As you note, we will never know actually how many of these matings end in disaster for the dogs concerned.

Most pet dogs are domesticated and that frequently means that, the first time in particular, they need a helping hand.

Many bitches ready for mating are quite happy to stand and flirt till the cows come home - they will happily be mounted, but the minute penetration starts - a lot of them will try and bolt (not all of them obviously, but a high proportion).

It's also initially a pretty strange sensation for the dog the first time as well - if either of them panic when tied and don't have supervision - as you recognise, the consequences can be devastating.

The situation isn't that different to young women (or teenage girls as more commonly the case) - many of whom may not enjoy their first sexual experience, but will naturally go back for more, and for most it gets better - if it didn't - the human race would quickly become extinct (although as a woman, I couldn't have gone through childbirth twice )



Wilmer said:


> That said, I can't see why a caring owner wouldn't do everything they could by way of supervision and experienced help to reduce injuries and problems to their absolute minimum.


Absolutely agree.

We had a return mating last night - my OH was there with us, thank goodness.

My boy wanted to turn, but because of the position they were in, he couldn't - the bitch was excellent and very calm (2nd litter for the bitch and return mating for these two dogs) -the first one was text book - tie, turned and held until finished - easy peasy.

This time the physical act of mating and tying was fine - but the position both dogs found themselves in wasn't natural to either of them and their instincts said they both wanted to move - but we couldn't risk it because of the possibility of damage to both dogs - thankfully with my hulking 6ft 3" OH there - we were able to steady them until the (half hour ) tie was over.

I can remember taking my eldest for her first litter - I was holding her and had bruises the next day in places I didn't think I could.

She was an excellent mum and a right tart at each season - but as you can imagine after the first litter, I was thinking here we go again when we decided to take a 2nd litter.

How wrong I was - mounted and tied - as if it was the most natural thing in the world - obviously we held both dogs with collars on - but it was more precautionary than anything else.

Now she CRIES outside my boys "bedroom" when she is in season - tart that she is :lol:

But some of my other girls who haven't been mated, and will never have - woe betide the boys even trying 

Having been around dogs a long time and assisted with matings of my own breed and much smaller ones - I still remain surprised at the numbers of totally natural unsupervised maiden to maiden litters that seem to happen

And more to the point - if the owners did find them tied - what did they do? just ignore it - or go and sit with the dogs to ensure they were OK?

"accidental matings" that just happen to happen 48 hours apart tickle me as well  - i.e the dog couldn't be restrained on the first day the bitch was ready - but could be on the second day - but once again on the third day, he couldn't be restrained - that sounds like a normal pattern of mating to me


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## swarthy

ChristianReneFriborg said:


> Yeah, she's only 9 pounds as of today. I'll get her tested tomorrow.


Unfortunately, for most conditions, you can't just get her "tested tomorrow"

You need to find out what conditions are required to test for in the breed, and also understand the maximum you can do with some other conditions - for example, eye certificates (which should be renewed annually) only say that within the next 18 months these conditions affecting the breed are not present at this time

The fact the dog remains clear does not mean the progeny won't be affected - you need to get your head around exactly what is needed and how you go about it before you do anything else.


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## ChristianReneFriborg

Ow okay. I get it now. Thanks for everything! I'll let you guys know what happened. :smile5:


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## leashedForLife

ChristianReneFriborg said:


> Oh, thanks! I'll just get my [Shih-Tzu bitch puppy, *screened* for both breed-specific
> & dog-generic heritable problems, before I consider breeding her to produce a litter]."


Shih-Tzu specific heritable issues: 


> _*Shih Tzu:*
> 1, 42, 54, 55, 83, 88, 89, 94, 103, 110, 146, 149, 166, 173,
> 179, 181, 182, 187, 256, 266, 266a, 269, 311a, 317, 322a, 330 _


the above list is from the GUIDE TO CONGENITAL & HERITABLE DISORDERS IN DOGS -

see the "Necessary health-tests sticky" to determine what each number stands for - 
http://www.petforums.co.uk/1061204822-post68.html
beginning with post #68 & continuing thru post #74 on that thread.
every # is a specific health-issue which is heritable, depending upon whether it's sex-linked, 
recessive, dominant, partial-penetration, etc.

Recessive traits require that both parents carry the gene, for their pup to be affected; 
simple recessive inheritance has a 1 in 4 odds-ratio.
IOW if both human-parents of a child carry the trait for blue-eyes, which is a simple recessive, 
but both have brown eyes [their *phenotype* is a simple-dominant trait], each child of theirs 
has a 25% chance of inheriting 2 recessive genes, & showing blue-eyes [their phenotype /appearance].

The blue-eyed child has a '*b / b*' genotype, while their parents are both '*B [brown] / b [blue]'* - 
a heterozygous phenotype, while the blue-eyed recessive is homozygous


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## Shrap

This is not a place to advertise your stud. However, what are his hip and elbow scores, haemophilia results, show results and working qualifications?
Who are his sire and dam?


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## peterscot423

whats the age of dog required to put on the studs.


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## leashedForLife

peterscot423 said:


> [what age must the male-] dog [be,] to [be bred]?


:mad5: this is such a phenomenally-ignorant question, i find it frankly offensive.

IF THE DOG'S *AGE* IS THE SOLE CONSIDERATION,
let him mount any bitch available as soon as he's willing to clasp one - just let 'em do it, over & over 
& over & over & over... Eventually, one or more Fs will get preg, & U'll have Ur answer. :incazzato:

What nimrod thinks age is the sole criterion?

Item: 
most Ms are fertile [have viable sperm] by 6-MO. SHOULD THEY BREED? *No.*

Item: 
Any M with viable sperm, even if the count is low, there are many malformed sperm, 
their viability is low to fair, & so on, CAN START A LITTER. Should every M breed? *Hell, no.*

Item: 
All Ms will usually attempt to mount any F [& some Ms] who smell of pheromones; UTIs can mimic
estrus-pheromones. SHOULD WE JUST LET THEM DO IT? *No.* Many Fs, especially if they're not
in estrous, don't appreciate 'flattery' AKA harassment & attempted rape, & will rip his face off.
If the target is a M with a kidney problem or UTI, the odds of a fight are even greater.

Rule for actual age when responsibly breeding:
Both Ms & Fs should be a minimum of 2-YO before a 1st breeding. This allows over 85% of possible heritable
problems that could affect that F or M dog to show symptoms, which is especially important for those 
genetic issues that CANNOT be screened for, to determine carrier-status. [per DVM Padgett, k9 geneticist]


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## saimgee123

In this article you discus some good things which are necessary while offering the dogs at stud. this article is helpful for me.


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## SpikeNstripe

My precious 6 month old rare bred Itty-Bitty Teddy Bear Parti (Partial colored) Pomeranian is being recommended by his veterinarian to be neutered before he turns 1. He is always stopped and complimented on his colors. He is mostly black but he has a white paws, white scarf and a faint white stripe that starts on the top of his head and runs down his snout, under his chin and it continues into his scarf. Within the white are black Dalmatian spots. He's worth $2,600 bought from American Dog Club in Smithaven Mall and is said by vet in perfect health. I will be interested in 1 puppy if you want to breed him with a Pomeranian, but whatever you would like to breed him with is your discretion. Please, only serious inquiries only, thanks. Official AKC family tree, pics and videos available upon request. We did a Craig list ad, but no response. We are located on Long Island, ny but are willing to travel.


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## simplysardonic

SpikeNstripe said:


> My precious 6 month old rare bred Itty-Bitty Teddy Bear Parti (Partial colored) Pomeranian is being recommended by his veterinarian to be neutered before he turns 1. He is always stopped and complimented on his colors. He is mostly black but he has a white paws, white scarf and a faint white stripe that starts on the top of his head and runs down his snout, under his chin and it continues into his scarf. Within the white are black Dalmatian spots. He's worth $2,600 bought from American Dog Club in Smithaven Mall and is said by vet in perfect health. I will be interested in 1 puppy if you want to breed him with a Pomeranian, but whatever you would like to breed him with is your discretion. Please, only serious inquiries only, thanks. Official AKC family tree, pics and videos available upon request. We did a Craig list ad, but no response. We are located on Long Island, ny but are willing to travel.


Wow, so much wrong in this post, not to mention _no advertising of stud dogs on the forum_

I hope your Craigslist advert continues to have no responses!


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