# Dog overpopulation



## applecrumlin (Mar 8, 2015)

I'm just curious if anyone has statistics on the number of dogs euthanised each year purely for being "unwanted"? Obviously difficult to get accurate numbers, but I've noticed a growing trend for importing strays, which makes me wonder if pet overpopulation is actually beginning to come under control?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

https://www.dogstrust.org.uk/news-e...-heartlessly-abandoned-their-dogs-in-one-year

The RSPCA has stopped issuing figures because it's PTS so many animals


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I think a lot of people are importing foreign strays out of pity rather than there is a shortage of dogs to rehome in this country. Also a lot of rescues here have very stringent guidelines on who they rehome to whereas the ones from abroad seem to give them out to anyone - hence the poor dog that ran wild round here a couple of years ago till it was shot. Stupid owner thought they could let a street dog outside without any restraint.

I am not in favour of bringing dogs over here, there are far too many dogs in rescue here and there are far too many dogs brought over that have problems the new owners cannot cope with and with no back up surely a lot of them end up in our rescues. That is without the high risk of bringing new diseases into the country.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

applecrumlin said:


> I'm just curious if anyone has statistics on the number of dogs euthanised each year purely for being "unwanted"? Obviously difficult to get accurate numbers, but I've noticed a growing trend for importing strays, which makes me wonder if pet overpopulation is actually beginning to come under control?


Not sure why you have conflated two entirely discrete issues but I would suggest you pop along to your local rescue, most do not have spare kennels.........................


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I don't think the unwanted dogs situation will ever go away. The problem can be that some dogs aren't easy to rehome and there are more BYB now perhaps than years ago due to the fashion trends of chis and mixed breeds and easy to sell on line so more dogs end up in rescue . Certain popular breeds like staffies and northeren , many of these end up in rescue.

Dogs in pounds are put to sleep if they are not claimed or there is no rescue space.
There is also more pressure on rescues not to put healthy dogs to sleep so many dogs are "kennel blockers" .
I think its a shame the rescues have to pretend they dont PTS or make excuses to PTS because of this pressure .
I think perhaps that joe public have this idealistic belief that all dogs can be found homes but that's not true. 

Its mot just dogs either, our local RSPCA has about 90 cats and kittens needing homes at the moment and I expect that will rise this summer .


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

A life is a life, no matter how close to home......
Many other countries have far worse standards of animal welfare; I'd personally sooner see a dog PTS quickly than one roaming around injured, dying slowly of infection and starvation.

The overpopulation sitauation is at far greater risk from greedy breeders churning out pups with no regard for anything but money than dogs from respectable rescues abroad.....


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

BlueJay said:


> .
> 
> The overpopulation sitauation is at far greater risk from greedy breeders churning out pups with no regard for anything but money than dogs from respectable rescues abroad.....


Can you post a link to the stats which support this statement please?


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## applecrumlin (Mar 8, 2015)

Rona, thanks for the link.
Blitz, that is my point exactly. Why go to another country looking for dogs whilst euthanising so many here?
SB, I don't understand why you say they are entirely discrete issues.
KtC, I agree about the kennel blocking problem, and also about the cats. It does seem like accidental matings are still the norm with cats, whereas deliberate BYBing is becoming the default with dogs. My "research" though, is based purely anecdotally on looking at gumtree and similar sites


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

Blitz said:


> I think a lot of people are importing foreign strays out of pity rather than there is a shortage of dogs to rehome in this country. Also a lot of rescues here have very stringent guidelines on who they rehome to whereas the ones from abroad seem to give them out to anyone - hence the poor dog that ran wild round here a couple of years ago till it was shot. Stupid owner thought they could let a street dog outside without any restraint.
> 
> I am not in favour of bringing dogs over here, there are far too many dogs in rescue here and there are far too many dogs brought over that have problems the new owners cannot cope with and with no back up surely a lot of them end up in our rescues. That is without the high risk of bringing new diseases into the country.


We recently adopted a Cyprus rescue. I went for a foreign rescue for two reasons... their lot in life is generally far worse. They're not protected by much in the way of welfare legislation and the general treatment of animals out there is shocking
the second reason was that because I take my dog to my place of full time work and he is kennelled for a couple of hours at a time, he is still entire and I'm not plotting to get him castrated any time soon, UK rescues pretty much laughed me out of the door.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

applecrumlin said:


> Rona, thanks for the link.
> Blitz, that is my point exactly. Why go to another country looking for dogs whilst euthanising so many here?
> SB, I don't understand why you say they are entirely discrete issues.
> KtC, I agree about the kennel blocking problem, and also about the cats. It does seem like accidental matings are still the norm with cats, whereas deliberate BYBing is becoming the default with dogs. My "research" though, is based purely anecdotally on looking at gumtree and similar sites


They are discrete issues yet you are suggesting that the rise in the increase of overseas rescues has some sort of correlation with a decrease in pet over population in the UK.

Whether or not people choose to rescue an imported rescue to a home grown one is not necessarily related to the (alleged) lack of availability of the latter IMO

However perhaps you have the stats to support this?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

But what happens when the foreign rehome doesn't work out?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Blitz said:


> I think a lot of people are importing foreign strays out of pity rather than there is a shortage of dogs to rehome in this country. Also a lot of rescues here have very stringent guidelines on who they rehome to whereas the ones from abroad seem to give them out to anyone - hence the poor dog that ran wild round here a couple of years ago till it was shot. Stupid owner thought they could let a street dog outside without any restraint.
> 
> I am not in favour of bringing dogs over here, there are far too many dogs in rescue here and there are far too many dogs brought over that have problems the new owners cannot cope with and with no back up surely a lot of them end up in our rescues. That is without the high risk of bringing new diseases into the country.


What do you base your assumptions about why people rehome from abroad on? Some groups (rather than organised rescues) do appear to bring in dogs without appropriate temperament assessment/suitability to the new owner but there are also larger rescues who bring in groups of dogs from abroad and get them health checked/neutered/vaccinated and do the appropriate assessments/ home checks and have contracts stating the dog must go back to them if things don't work out. In other words they go through exactly the same process as dogs from here do.



applecrumlin said:


> Rona, thanks for the link.
> Blitz, that is my point exactly. *Why go to another country looking for dogs whilst euthanising so many here?*


Why not? Surely it is entirely up to the person deciding to offer a rescue dog a home rather than buy one where they go to get it. Two of mine are from Southern Ireland and over the years I've taken a fair bit of abuse for taking dogs from abroad when dogs in our rescues/pounds are being PTS. My two would have been PTS too so I see absolutely no difference - a dog is a dog whether it happens to find itself living in England, Ireland or Portugal or Cypress. I was told I had the blood of English rescue dogs on my hands because I had taken two from Ireland which made me laugh at the time as I'd also taken on a particularly difficult rottie from a rescue here who most of those criticising me would not have given house room to. So from my point of view I will always take rescue dogs rather than go to a breeder but which rescue I choose to go to and which dog I choose to give a home to is for me to decide


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Lurcherlad said:


> But what happens when the foreign rehome doesn't work out?


It depends on whether the "foreign rehome" came through a reputable rescue or one of these facebook groups. If you use a reputable rescue then they apply the same policies of home checking/health checks/neutering/vaccinating etc and the same policy of getting you to sign a contract to return the dog to them if things don't work out. Even some of the smaller groups bringing in dogs from abroad do have a network of foster homes that the dog can go to.


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## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

We tried for 2 years to rescue from the uk. I tried all the big rescues right down to local ones and not so local, smaller ones. All turned us down because we both worked full time. We're shift workers, so it's rare that we are on the same shift at the same time, and for those occasions where that does happen we had a dog walker already lined up, family support nearby etc and had the funds to be able to work on any issues that may come with rescuing a dog. Even when this was explained, we were still turned down.
It feels like some rescues have too high standards. Now, I know that they are looking out for the interests of the dog and I completely understand why you need to set some rules for eligibility. But I do genuinely think that these rules are pushing more people towards a European rescue. It pushed me! I wanted to adopt a dog, but after being turned down by so many we started looking at puppies. It was fate that showed us Sara and we fostered her to get her out of a bad situation, convinced she'd be a short term houseguest. She failed as a foster the moment we laid eyes on her!

Me working full time does not make me an unsuitable person to own a dog. But that's how I started to feel.

And I hate when people tell me that I have killed a uk shelter dog by adopting from abroad! If the rescue won't rehome to me, that is their burden, not mine. Sara didn't "take up a spot that a U.K. Rescue could've had" because uk rescues wouldn't fill that spot! If I didn't adopt Sara that dog still would've died because, apparently, I'm not suitable in the eyes of most rescues, it seems. 

Sorry, rant over. And I offered to volunteer at several of the centres so that they could get to know me and was told that wouldn't make a difference either


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Kimmikins said:


> We tried for 2 years to rescue from the uk. I tried all the big rescues right down to local ones and not so local, smaller ones. All turned us down because we both worked full time. We're shift workers, so it's rare that we are on the same shift at the same time, and for those occasions where that does happen we had a dog walker already lined up, family support nearby etc and had the funds to be able to work on any issues that may come with rescuing a dog. Even when this was explained, we were still turned down.
> It feels like some rescues have too high standards. Now, I know that they are looking out for the interests of the dog and I completely understand why you need to set some rules for eligibility. But I do genuinely think that these rules are pushing more people towards a European rescue. It pushed me! I wanted to adopt a dog, but after being turned down by so many we started looking at puppies. It was fate that showed us Sara and we fostered her to get her out of a bad situation, convinced she'd be a short term houseguest. She failed as a foster the moment we laid eyes on her!
> 
> Me working full time does not make me an unsuitable person to own a dog. But that's how I started to feel.
> ...


You see this is what I never understand with some rescues...

If you work full-time then you are more likely be able to meet veterinary needs of the animals, or consider insurance.

I know people who have cancel insurance as soon as they hit hard times, which if it goes from feeding children to insuring pets I get, every little helps, people wing and prayer it.

However, if you work you are more likely to provide the medical needs for an animal and not leave it to suffer. I worked at a pet shop briefly and it horrified me the amount of people looking for quick fixes, cheap alternatives anything to avoid the vets, and the bottom line was they were unwilling to pay, or said it was too expensive but surely the cost of having an animal is paying vets bills.


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## applecrumlin (Mar 8, 2015)

I still can't see them as discrete issues; if pet overpopulation is an issue - and we all seem agreed that it is - how is importation of foreign dogs not going to exacerbate it? 
IF, however, there has been an easing of numbers in rescue kennels, that might imply that foreign imports are filling a vacuum. I suggest a loose correlation, not a direct one.
The number of dogs in the Dog's Trust centre closest to me does fluctuate quite widely ; I haven't visited and don't know whether this is due to doubling up or empty kennels. 
Kimmikins, I am shocked to hear of your experience, your dog is lucky that you didn't just throw your toys out of the pram as so many would have done, and gone to a breeder.
BTW I'm not judging anyone who adopts a foreign dog nor anyone who buys from a breeder, I was just curious, and hoped perhaps for a bit of good news along the lines of "there is still a problem but progress is being made"


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2016)

I think it bears mentioning in these conversations that there are rescues and there are rescues. 
Just as breeders fall on a spectrum ranging from godawful puppy mills, to caring but ignorant BYB, to awesomest of the awesome breeders who cross every T and dot every I and then some, so do rescues. 

In the news the other day here was a story of 42 dogs removed from a home in Tennessee that was running a rescue, but the dogs were kept in unspeakable conditions and it had turned in to an animal cruelty case. Then there are rescues who just like fantastic breeders, do everything right, foster the dogs in homes, do thorough behavior assessments, have credentialed trainers on hand, interview potential homes effectively, are available for help for the life of the dog, etc. 

So saying “rescue” these days doesn’t mean much more than saying “breeder”. There are fantastic rescues that do great work, doesn’t matter really where the dog comes from as long as the rescue is doing right by the dogs.


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

The way I see it is as long as you're not buying from irresponsible breeders/puppy farmers than it is really none of my business where you get your dog from.

Want a foreign rescue from a reputable rescue? Good for you!

Want to rehome from an English rescue? Good for you!

Want to buy from a responsible breeder? Good for you!

Want a private rehome? Good for you! 

There may be options above I wouldn't personally take but I'm not going to scream at people proclaiming they've got 'blood on their hands'. Personally, I think in fighting in the dog world is causing more cracks and issues. Responsible breeders, rescues and owners around the globe should be a united front against those who are using dogs for their own gain etc. 

Off my soapbox now :Singing


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## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

Why are UK dogs more deserving of a happy and healthy home than dogs from other countries? All of these dogs are at risk of euthanasia, why does it matter where they come from?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Personally I have no problem with people getting a foreign rescue if they've thought it through, it's what they definitely want and they go through a reputable rescue. However, I've seen far too many go down that route because it's the easy way to get a dog. No home checks, no questions asked, the dog is described as a perfect family pet with no issues (these are street dogs!), just pay the money and pick up the dog at this place on this day. And most of the ones who've gone down that route have ended up sticking the dog in a UK rescue (because these "rescues" don't offer any back up, don't take the dog back or anything) because it has serious issues they aren't prepared or able to work with (separation anxiety and resource guarding being the most common from what I've seen). It seems to be a case of getting the dog out of the country and to the UK and that's all that matters.

Don't get me wrong, not all overseas rescues are like that, it just seems that the easier ones to find are like that. And I'm sure there are UK rescues who don't give a monkeys where the dogs go, don't offer support etc. But the well known ones home check, offer support, take dogs back and generally try to match up the right dog with the right home.

Personally I'd want to meet the dog beforehand. Especially if I were bringing it in as a second dog as I'd want to be sure there were no obvious issues between current dog and new dog. So that puts me off foreign rescues as most are still in the pound overseas.


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

Just because people work full time and think they could offer a good home to a dog, doesn't necessarily mean a dog will be happy being with them ..not because they are bad people but a lot of dogs can't just drop into that routine.

The difficulty we have with this is most of our dogs are ex strays so we have no idea of what they would be like home alone and when we have taken the risk for where people are out longer hours it has not gone well.
People do work full time and have dogs - maybe they have built their dog up to the hours left, rather than bringing home a new dog and wham straight into 7 hours being left 3 days later? And not all dogs are happy with just a hours break in the day time if its still 4 hours either side of that.
A lot of people seem to forget commuting time, or want a young lively dog etc and not the type of dog that might suit their lifestyle - so we won't rehome where the dog is home alone all day (I wouldn't leave mine home alone all day for sure) as our rescues are an unknown entity so its high risk. I try to point working families in this situation in the direction of a dog in foster/ signed over with a known history of being home alone so they are much more likely to succeed.

However, the question we ask is not 'do you work full time' but 'how long will the dog be left for'. Can't see what the problem is if people both work full time but different hours - perfect! We do at least try to listen to what people have to say and how they will work it. Sadly from the side of rescue you get a lot of people who work long hours and happy to leave the dog home alone all day or with someone popping in for 20 mins.

With dogs from abroad, as a UK rescue volunteer I don't necessarily agree because I would like to see our UK dogs sorted first. The argument thrown back is often a life is a life, and don't disagree, just because would like UK dogs sorted out and rehomed, doesn't mean I don't think the plight of the overseas dogs is meaningless - would like to see the problem tackled at root cause in the country of origin as an ideal solution, i.e. neutering and education.

I think also, a lot of the dogs in rescues in the UK tend to be certain breeds which people do not want to rehome, staffies, rotties, akitas, jrt's and some of the overseas dogs are a bit different and that appeals to people and also they have different rules. What I would feel a lot more strongly about is if those hard to home dogs being imported (which I don't think they are). I also feel a lot happier when its done by responsible rescues who have assessed the dogs and offer a full support, rather than street dogs being sent over straight into homes without proper support. 

for some reason I don't classify irish dogs as overseas.


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

*Why are UK dogs more deserving of a happy and healthy home than dogs from other countries? All of these dogs are at risk of euthanasia, why does it matter where they come from?*

No one has said that overseas dogs are any less deserving of a home - but some people feel would like to get our 'at home' issues sorted out first whilst offering support at the place of origin to try and get the bigger picture sorted out for life for dogs overseas. I don't deny any dog the chance of a happy life, being in favour of UK rescue doesn't mean you want overseas dogs to suffer.

I do think the number of imported dogs having said that is probably a very small percentage? And maybe we just get to hear the bad stories not the happy its all worked out stories.


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## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

EmCHammer said:


> Just because people work full time and think they could offer a good home to a dog, doesn't necessarily mean a dog will be happy being with them ..not because they are bad people but a lot of dogs can't just drop into that routine.
> 
> The difficulty we have with this is most of our dogs are ex strays so we have no idea of what they would be like home alone and when we have taken the risk for where people are out longer hours it has not gone well.
> People do work full time and have dogs - maybe they have built their dog up to the hours left, rather than bringing home a new dog and wham straight into 7 hours being left 3 days later? And not all dogs are happy with just a hours break in the day time if its still 4 hours either side of that.
> ...


I agree with you about not all dogs fitting with a working household, even if the owners are good potential adopters. I think that's where the reputable rescues bit comes in. If you know a dog won't suit a working home, that's different to saying working people aren't suitable (not that that's what you were saying, I know )

Even when we were certain Sara would be staying, we made sure we were clear with her rescue that we'd be fostering her for a month with a view to adopt. That way if her temperament changed, or she was very obviously unhappy in our home, the rescue were in the know and ready to restart the search for her home. Personally, I like fostering with a view to adopt. I think a lot of homes give up too quick, whereas if there was a finite period where you knew the dog would be going back they might be more open to giving the dog more time to settle? Maybe? I don't know, it worked for us but I'm aware it might not be a practical option and there are probably pitfalls I haven't considered!


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2016)

If rescues turn people down, it’s usually because they have been burned there before. Granted, yes, some rescues just have their heads up their nether regions and would rather the dog live in kennels forever than go to a good but not ideal home. And others, who knows what they’re thinking (*cough* Paisley *cough*). 
But in general, it’s worth noting why a rescue (or breeder) turned you down. 
Two anecdotes:
An acquaintance wanted a small dog for the family. I encouraged her to look at local rescues. She did, filled out the forms, including the question about whether she had owned dogs before and what happened to them. All 3 had escaped and been run over. She wanted a small dog who could be an inside dog and not have to live outside where they might escape and get run over. She did not get a dog. The rescue explained to her that they were not convinced she would be able to keep the small dog from getting run over either. 
Annoyed by the perceived slight, and feeling like she was being punished for being honest with the rescue, this person went to a BYB and got some small miniature poodle mix who is now 2 years old, still not house trained, hyper and... you guessed it, lives outside in a pen because he keeps peeing and pooping in the house. 

Another acquaintance wanted a great dane. I said a dane was probably not the right dog for them. Two reputable breeders told them the same. Annoyed, these people went to the next breeder they could find who would sell them a dog, even though they really were not the right home for this kind of dog. They got their BYB dane pup, fearful temperament that quickly escalated in to serious fear aggression (not helped by their use of an e-collar). Dog was euthanized before his 3rd birthday. They’re looking for another dane now, no good breeder will touch them of course, so they’ll end up with another BYB mess and who knows what will happen 

Not everyone who wants a dog should have a dog. That’s the hard reality of rescue.


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Before Harley came over from Spain, he was tested for distemper, parvo, leishmaniasis, corona virus, 3 tick fevers and heartworm, he was treated for fleas, worms & ticks, neutered and given a full course of vaccinations & passport. He was in a foster home for 6 weeks between him getting out of the pound and coming over to the UK, who I was in regular contact with and who answered all my questions about him. The rescue was brilliant and they also have a network of supporters and foster homes over here should anything go wrong with any of the adoptions.

I think so long as people understand what they are getting into with an overseas dog, and so long as they go through a good rescue, I don't see why anyone else should have a problem with it. I looked at rescues over here, but couldn't find any dogs that were suitable for me and my family, as we had some fairly specific ideas about what kind of dog we wanted. Harley didn't take the place of a UK rescue dog, because it's unlikely that we would have ended up with a UK rescue dog. As it is, he is absolutely perfect for us, he fits in beautifully and he became best friends with Benji from the moment they met 

Yes there are bound to be some bad rescues that will hand a dog over to just about anyone, who don't prepare people for what they're getting into and who don't provide backup. But that doesn't mean that no one should take on a dog from another country. As @rottiepointerhouse said, if I'm offering a home to a dog it's up to me to decide which dog I have and where it comes from


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

Lurcherlad said:


> But what happens when the foreign rehome doesn't work out?


In our case, it didn't work out at ALL and Steel had to go into UK foster. He is safe and guaranteed a home. I'm gutted we weren't given all the info on his reactivity from the outset but it does genuinely seem that he had a particular problem with Logan rather than all entire males. 
I wouldn't have so much as contemplated taking him on if the option of foster wasn't there from the outset should things go wrong.


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

ouesi said:


> But in general, it's worth noting why a rescue (or breeder) turned you down.


Before we chose to have ourselves put on a waiting list for an australian shepherd last year or considered taking on a cyprus rescue (which obviously failed abysmally) we contacted a few breeders of other breeds, notably Bernese mountain dogs. 
I spoke to about breeders. Four were wonderfully honest and told me that whilst we sounded genuine and capable and that on the surface the idea of taking dogs to work and having them in a large and safe kennel for a few hours at a time seemed great, for berners they felt it would be a bad idea for a variety of reasons all of which they explained fully. 
One didn't bother replying, another couple just said "sorry, no" with no explanation given and several more extolled the virtues of the breed and seemed keen for us to have one. 
We decided that given what we had been told by those who said no, they really genuinely weren't the breed for us. I was grateful for the honesty.

With many of the rescues I contacted, we just got a "sorry, we would not consider you as a suitable applicant for one of our dogs" or even rudeness from them. It was really quite upsetting and the second time round we've had this experience as we intended dog #1 to be a rescue


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

BlueJay said:


> A life is a life, no matter how close to home......
> Many other countries have far worse standards of animal welfare; I'd personally sooner see a dog PTS quickly than one roaming around injured, dying slowly of infection and starvation.
> 
> The overpopulation sitauation is at far greater risk from greedy breeders churning out pups with no regard for anything but money than dogs from respectable rescues abroad.....


A life is a life but what I've struggled to understand is if people are so worried about the hundreds and hundreds of street dogs abroad suffering everyday then surely rather than shipping one over to be their pet that £150 (or whatever it may be) adoption fee would be better of spent putting 30 dogs to sleep in a pain free manor rather than save just the one.

There is a much worse existence than death.

Not a choice or opinion I expect many to agree with me on but certainly something I've pondered over.


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## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

Milliepoochie said:


> A life is a life but what I've struggled to understand is if people are so worried about the hundreds and hundreds of street dogs abroad suffering everyday then surely rather than shipping one over to be their pet that £150 (or whatever it may be) adoption fee would be better of spent putting 30 dogs to sleep in a pain free manor rather than save just the one.
> 
> There is a much worse existence than death.
> 
> Not a choice or opinion I expect many to agree with me on but certainly something I've pondered over.


Why, if I want a pet, would I spend £150 to...not have a pet. I see what you're saying, but I donate when I can to help spay/neuter programmes, or just support the fundraising efforts of the rescues that I support. If they were to use this money to end suffering, in whatever form that is, I think I'd be ok with that. As long as it was helping the bigger picture and not just trying to eliminate be problem by eliminating the population. A good spay/neuter programme alongside education and the adopting working together is surely better than blanket euthanisation?


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> Can you post a link to the stats which support this statement please?


Surely it's axiomatic.

There are thousands of puppies being born in the UK, this can be seen just browsing the selling sites, breeder websites etc.

A significant number of these dogs are not kept for the duration of their lives- you only have to look at rescue sites & selling sites to see that this is a very real issue.

Really decent breeders are in a minority, & are mostly not breeding dogs in significant volume, choosing the homes for their puppies carefully to avoid them ending up where they have no business being, & taking back any puppies they have bred.

Ergo, these breeders can in the most part be discounted, with the odd exception when a buyer ends up being not as committed or honest as they claimed to be so the dog ends up in rescue (like Paisley for example), still not a significant number due to these breeders not breeding large numbers of dogs.

That leaves all the other types of breeder- the money makers, puppy farmers, accidental litters, the ones who want their children to experience the 'miracle of birth'.

Not necessarily all bad people, perhaps naive & misinformed, many thinking 'just the one litter, what harm can it do?' & times that by who knows how many households across the UK, & then people buying thoughtlessly on top of that, you end up with a problem.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2016)

Milliepoochie said:


> A life is a life but what I've struggled to understand is if people are so worried about the hundreds and hundreds of street dogs abroad suffering everyday then surely rather than shipping one over to be their pet that £150 (or whatever it may be) adoption fee would be better of spent putting 30 dogs to sleep in a pain free manor rather than save just the one.
> 
> There is a much worse existence than death.
> 
> Not a choice or opinion I expect many to agree with me on but certainly something I've pondered over.


I'm with you on the not going to extremes or putting a ton of money in to one dog when the same amount could help multiple dogs.

However, I also very much believe that how and where people do their part is totally their choice.

I volunteer in rescue, and the vast majority of my time and efforts go in to giant breed, usually great dane related rescue. No, I don't think danes are more worthy of attention than chihuahuas, but that is my area of interest, so where I choose to focus my efforts. 
For some people, street dogs is their area of interest, and perhaps it is street dogs in another country. Or maybe the needle noses from Spain are their passion. It's not for me to tell someone where they should focus their efforts.

Now, if it's just someone going to an abroad "rescue" because the ones nearby have them on a DNA list and the ones abroad haven't gotten the memo yet, then yes, totally different story. But a responsible rescue helping is a responsible rescue helping regardless of where, and an otherwise homeless dog going to a good home, is a dog going to a good home, and I can't knock that.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Milliepoochie said:


> A life is a life but what I've struggled to understand is if people are so worried about the hundreds and hundreds of street dogs abroad suffering everyday then surely rather than shipping one over to be their pet that £150 (or whatever it may be) adoption fee would be better of spent putting 30 dogs to sleep in a pain free manor rather than save just the one.
> 
> There is a much worse existence than death.
> 
> Not a choice or opinion I expect many to agree with me on but certainly something I've pondered over.


In some ways I agree although I don't think it's necessarily the adopters who should be doing it, more the many "get the dog out of the country/pound at any cost" so called rescuers. If someone wants to adopt a dog that's their choice but I regularly see on FB that people are spending a fortune on dogs who are paralysed or whatever and looking for forever homes for them, often for a hell of a long time. IMO it would be better to put them to sleep and focus on essentials, basic healthcare and neutering, improving the pound situations if possible etc. Look at the big picture rather than one dog so to speak.

Same could be said of some non overseas rescues though.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Milliepoochie said:


> A life is a life but what I've struggled to understand is if people are so worried about the hundreds and hundreds of street dogs abroad suffering everyday then surely rather than shipping one over to be their pet that £150 (or whatever it may be) adoption fee would be better of spent putting 30 dogs to sleep in a pain free manor rather than save just the one.
> 
> There is a much worse existence than death.
> 
> Not a choice or opinion I expect many to agree with me on but certainly something I've pondered over.


But they are not mutually exclusive. Its possible to spend how ever much money you want to bring a dog from wherever you want to and still donate money to rescues who either take or PTS the ones they can't help. I do both and also support organisations like the one below who neuter/vaccinate/educate/care for dogs in Sri Lanka

http://www.dogstarfoundation.com/

Also isn't that a bit like saying why should anyone spend say £800 or £1,000 on a puppy when they could take a rescue and donate the rest of the money to put 30 dogs to sleep in a pain free manner - for the price of buying one puppy you (general) could save the lives or end peacefully the lives of many many more.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> But they are not mutually exclusive. Its possible to spend how ever much money you want to bring a dog from wherever you want to and still donate money to rescues who either take or PTS the ones they can't help. I do both and also support organisations like the one below who neuter/vaccinate/educate/care for dogs in Sri Lanka
> 
> http://www.dogstarfoundation.com/
> 
> Also isn't that a bit like saying why should anyone spend say £800 or £1,000 on a puppy when they could take a rescue and donate the rest of the money to put 30 dogs to sleep in a pain free manner - for the price of buying one puppy you (general) could save the lives or end peacefully the lives of many many more.


I don't think I explained it very well.

Essentially in the past we have had threads on for example Romanian dog rescues and I remember people talking about their reasons for adopting from them and how basic and horrendous the shelters were : how dogs were living on the streets injured / suffering every day / not getting medical help even if in shelters / caught and showing some very distressing photos.

My point was that if this is the main concern rather than one dog being driven across Europe for the money involved a lot more dogs could be 'helped' in various ways and that sometimes we should realise euthanasia isn't the worst that could happen.

Of course everybody has the right to buy whatever breed they want and from whatever breeder at a cost their happy with - I wouldn't judge anyone for that.

I was basing my view on views / threads / photos I had seen in the past on the forum which had implied specific reasons for adopting from abroad due to the many hundreds of suffering dogs and inadequate rescue centres.


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## foxiesummer (Feb 4, 2009)

Local branch of the RSPCA have a no kill policy, saying that, if the dog is of a staffie type with long legs they refuse to take it in. We have only PTS one which had been abused and even though hubby and I 'brought it round' so to speak none of the rescues would take it. The only rescue I know of which takes in and keeps unsociable dogs was full to bursting with 76 dogs so couldn't take it. As the recues say they have enough friendly dogs which they have trouble homing.


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

Its a little sad that justification is needed for the people who want to adopt from abroad.
So many people say things like "what made you choose there?", "why didn't you get a dog from here?", "not enough to choose from already here?"
Yet nobody questions anything with a UK based rescue.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Maybe we should build a wall... A Great Wall! 
A wall between UK rescue centres and the rest...

We'll get them lot abroad to pay for it too...

Joking aside. A dog is a dog. A dog in need, is a dog in need -regardless of where it's born. 
When it comes to rescuing, why is there an obsession with country borders? 
No dog suffering is any more deserving of another. They all need help and they all deserve happiness.
It's scarily similar to the refugee crisis. "Help British people first! There's no room for them over here." 

People are entitled to choose where their dog comes from. It's not out of a lack of respect for dogs at home, far from it. But maybe it's compassion for any dog, any where. Maybe it's a way of feeling like they're doing their bit, however small, to the plight of dogs worldwide. Maybe it's because they look beyond problems on home soil and feel the need to help. 
Nothing to do with not caring about dogs at home.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2016)

BlueJay said:


> Yet nobody questions anything with a UK based rescue.


Oh I do!
There have been threads on here that make me greatly question UK based rescues. One in particular I'm very concerned about and the dogs being kept there...


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

My favourite foreign rescue is filling a gap. The Golden retriever rescues in the UK have sometimes very long waiting lists and people can wait years to get a rescue Golden.
There are plenty that need homes here
http://www.happypawspuppyrescue.co.uk/

What I don't agree with is bringing dogs over that haven't a home waiting and the dog languishes in kennels for months on end


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## applecrumlin (Mar 8, 2015)

SB, I'm even more confused now; UK dog overpopulation and importation of strays are entirely discrete issues, yet one day earlier you urged caution on someone who was considering adopting a Romanian stray, firstly because "there are plenty of home grown ones, we do not need to import them".
I don't understand what I'm missing?


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## applecrumlin (Mar 8, 2015)

Rona, you are the only one who has addressed my original question, not once but twice!


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## Chellie (Jul 30, 2015)

I'm asked this question almost daily as I have 4 Romainian dogs. Why? They needed a home and I had room and wanted a dog. Borders are man made, to me, it doesn't matter where a dog comes from. All I know is that euthanasia is much kinder in the UK for an unwanted dog than it is in Romania, I would rather a dog die peacefully in a UK shelter than be beaten, starved, tortured or poisoned to death in a Romanian public shelter.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Chellie said:


> I'm asked this question almost daily as I have 4 Romainian dogs. Why? They needed a home and I had room and wanted a dog. Borders are man made, to me, it doesn't matter where a dog comes from. All I know is that euthanasia is much kinder in the UK for an unwanted dog than it is in Romania, I would rather a dog die peacefully in a UK shelter than be beaten, starved, tortured or poisoned to death in a Romanian public shelter.


I agree but the people who rehome a few lucky dogs to the UK could save so much more suffering if they took more out of shelter to pts humanely (saving them from the death shelters) for the same cost, which is the limiter of all these things - funds.

A horrid thing to do, but walking away with a lucky few and leaving the rest to their fate is surely worse/harder?

A quick, humane death is better than a horrendous wait for an horrific death.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2016)

Chellie said:


> beaten, starved, tortured or poisoned to death in a Romanian public shelter.


Dogs all over the world are beaten, starved, tortured, and poisoned. Even in the UK


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## Chellie (Jul 30, 2015)

Lurcherlad said:


> I agree but the people who rehome a few lucky dogs to the UK could save so much more suffering if they took more out of shelter to pts humanely (saving them from the death shelters) for the same cost, which is the limiter of all these things - funds.
> 
> A horrid thing to do, but walking away with a lucky few and leaving the rest to their fate is surely worse/harder?
> 
> A quick, humane death is better than a horrendous wait for an horrific death.


Fair enough but who would perform this act of mercy?

And I would still need to get a dog so why not the one I've just paid to get out of the death camp to euthanise?


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2016)

I think the point is, you don’t have to justify where your dog comes from. If a Romanian rescue is what you want, and you’re going in with eyes wide open, it’s no one else’s business where your dog comes from. Same as if you get a dog from a breeder. 
It’s when you start getting in to justifying why one dog is more needy than another that it gets impossible.


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## Chellie (Jul 30, 2015)

ouesi said:


> I think the point is, you don't have to justify where your dog comes from. If a Romanian rescue is what you want, and you're going in with eyes wide open, it's no one else's business where your dog comes from. Same as if you get a dog from a breeder.
> It's when you start getting in to justifying why one dog is more needy than another that it gets impossible.


Well said, I totally agree with you. As I say, I wanted a dog, they needed a home it's a simple as that


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## Chellie (Jul 30, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Dogs all over the world are beaten, starved, tortured, and poisoned. Even in the UK


But rarely in the public shelter in the UK. I'm happy to adopt from anywhere if it's the right dog at the right time, all the better if it saves a dog from suffering whatever it's nationality.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Milliepoochie said:


> I don't think I explained it very well.
> 
> Essentially in the past we have had threads on for example Romanian dog rescues and I remember people talking about their reasons for adopting from them and how basic and horrendous the shelters were : how dogs were living on the streets injured / suffering every day / not getting medical help even if in shelters / caught and showing some very distressing photos.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately until the laws change & the corruption of the powers that be are addressed nothing much will change



BlueJay said:


> *Its a little sad that justification is needed for the people who want to adopt from abroad*.
> So many people say things like "what made you choose there?", "why didn't you get a dog from here?", "not enough to choose from already here?"
> Yet nobody questions anything with a UK based rescue.


100% agree, I've seen less interrogation given to people who have gone to dodgy breeders than I have for people who choose to adopt a dog from abroad.

And I've seen some bloody appalling UK rescues, no RBU, rehoming unneutered dogs, lying about the dog's issues. Not all UK rescues are saints!


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

simplysardonic said:


> Not all UK rescues are saints!


Ain't that the sad truth


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, AppleCrumlin

(Does) anyone have statistics on the number of (UK) dogs euthanised each year (as) "unwanted"? 
Obviously, it's difficult to get accurate numbers, but I've noticed a growing trend (to import strays for adoption here), which makes me wonder if (UK) pet overpopulation is actually beginning to come under control.

/QUOTE
.
.
It's a good Q, but it's tough to get hard numbers on the issue of euths/yr across the country. Everybody keeps their own books, & trying to compile stats from [in the USA] thousands of non-profit rescues, municipal, & private shelters is extremely difficult, but those stats in the US are mostly public data - the majority of states require every shelter with a permit to post their numbers, intake of each species & the individual fate of each animal, on a state-run website. So it's not that the stats don't exist, in the US; it's amassing the data.
In the USA, we killed 15-million "surplus" pets for over 10-years, from 1965 to 1975 & beyond - *every year*.
That's a helluva pile of corpses. We've reduced the overall death-toll of "surplus" pets to between 3 & 5 million euthed per year, depending upon whose numbers U choose to believe. - still far-too many, but way-less.
.
How many national rescues / shelters are there in the UK? Obviously, the RSPCA is national, but is Dogs' Trust, also? IDK.
I'd think the RSPCA would have the best numbers to illuminate long-term trends, as they've been at it longer than anyone else.
How many pets did the RSPCA euthanize 10-yrs ago? How many did they euthanize last year?
.

QUOTE, Katalyst:

We recently adopted a Cyprus rescue. I went for a foreign rescue for two reasons... their lot in life is generally far worse. They're not protected by much in the way of welfare legislation and the general treatment of animals out there is shocking
the second reason was that because I take my dog to my place of full time work and he is kennelled (sic) for a couple of hours at a time, *he is still entire, & I'm not plotting to get him castrated any time soon.* UK rescues pretty much laughed me out of the door.

/QUOTE
.
Right there, i immediately peg that overseas rescue as 'irresponsible'. They're willing to send an intact animal out of their own jurisdiction, into the foreign adopter's possession & sole control - that's bad policy, period.
PET * OVER-POPULATION * STARTS * WITH * INTACT * ANIMALS.
Neutering an animal, M or F, is not The Ultimate Evil, or some cruelty we inflict on them. It's the only way to ensure that this animal never sires or whelps any progeny - ever. Strays who are adopted should never be bred - ever. And neutering them BEFORE they're adopted ensures this.
Once adoptees are out of the shelter's or rescue's possession, anything can happen - they're given away, re-homed via ads, lost, abandoned, etc, & they're intact. Or they're "accidentally" or deliberately bred, by the original adopter.
The lucky ones are surrendered to a local shelter when they morph from being "I want that!" to "don't want the dog anymore", where they may be re-homed & if they are, WILL be desexed before placement - but the point of adopting a homeless dog from abroad isn't to put more stress on in-country shelters, it's to give that dog a good life in a forever home.
Obviously, stuff happens - ppl die, lose their jobs, get divorced, money issues, illness - but the goal is a wanted pet in a forever home.
.
Moreover, that U specifically *wanted* an intact animal as an adoptee makes me question Ur own reasons for adopting. Gonads are for breeding - they're superfluous to a pet. Please don't rant about desex causing catastrophic health problems, that's a crock - as false as the argument that climate change / ocean acidification / the greatest wave of extinctions since the dinosaurs were wiped out by an asteroid, wasn't caused by humans.
.

QUOTE, Katalyst:

In our case, (foreign adoption) didn't work out at ALL, & Steel had to go into UK foster. He is safe and guaranteed a home. I'm gutted we weren't given all the info on his reactivity from the outset but it does genuinely seem that *he had a particular problem with Logan, rather than all entire males. *

I wouldn't have so much as contemplated taking him on if the option of foster wasn't there from the outset should things go wrong.

/QUOTE
.
.
So U owned 1 intact-M already [Logan], adopted a 2nd intact-M from abroad [Steel], it didn't work out well, & that dog is now in a foster home in the UK - right? Were U aware when U adopted Steel that opposite sexes are the best odds for success, when adopting a 2nd dog?
Then apparently U adopted a 3rd intact-M dog, name unknown, per Ur 1st post in this thread, & he is - at least for now - still with U. Was dog #3 via the same Cyprus rescue that sent Steel to U? - Or thru a different rescue?
In either case, that rescue is irresponsible, IMO. Responsible rescues desex every animal before placing them, without exception - if an animal is in such poor health that s/he can't be desexed, they stay in the possession of the rescue / shelter, & are not placed with an adopter.
.
.
.


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

@leashedForLife I believe Katayst is going to have a puppy Australian Shepherd in the future which would have been the third dog. At the minute, she just owns Logan following Steele going into foster.


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2016)

leashedForLife said:


> PET * OVER-POPULATION * STARTS * WITH * INTACT * ANIMALS.


Nope, starts with irresponsible pet ownership. 
Amazingly I and many others have managed to keep intact animals of all kinds without allowing indiscriminate breeding


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Nope, starts with irresponsible pet ownership.
> Amazingly I and many others have managed to keep intact animals of all kinds without allowing indiscriminate breeding


Yep Lucky was entire for his nearly 16 years of life. He never once slipped and sired a litter. I seem to be keeping up a theme as Bear is also entire and has yet to sire anything.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Nope, starts with irresponsible pet ownership.
> Amazingly I and many others have managed to keep intact animals of all kinds without allowing indiscriminate breeding


Ok...Jovi is castrated but a bloody horny sod...and if I can keep him apart from Gem, Poppy, Tess and Eevee throughout their seasons, whilst having a busy family life, multiple dogs, and houses not exactly designed for separating easily. I can be naturally scatty and ok it was so was easy with Eevee because he was 14 he had arthritis and Eevee is a chi.

During those times, I had a very determined Jovi, a son who arrived home before me from school at age 13 and followed instructions down to the wire. A vast majority of teenage visitors and you know what, no incident even though no puppies could be produced. Probably more variables because it was a busy household!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, PappyChi:

... I believe Katayst is going to (buy) a puppy Australian Shepherd... which (will be) the third dog.
At the minute, she just owns Logan --- following Steele going into foster (care).

/QUOTE
.
.
Thanks, PappyChi, for that info - 
then presumably Logan is the dog that Katalyst _*"isn't plotting to castrate anytime soon"*_, yes?
.
in either instance, she already had an intact-M, & adopted a 2nd - despite readily-available info that it's best to adopt an opp-sex dog as a 2nd dog, to avoid bad feeling between the dogs. Other readily-available info would have told her that neutered male dogs tend to have fewer 'issues' with other dogs, & that 2 *same sex *intact dogs in the same household is the combo that's the most fraught / potentially problematic... as contrasted with 1 intact / 1 desexed, or both desexed.
.
But i suppose she was going to defy the odds, & everything would be pink unicorns & pastel rainbows. 
.
And whatever Katalyst's hopes & dreams, there's at least 1 rescue in Cyprus that was perfectly happy to send an intact-M dog out of the country to some else's possession without a qualm.
What's the name of that rescue, please? - so that we can put them on our "do not deal with these ppl" lists.
.
.
.


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

leashedForLife said:


> But i suppose she was going to defy the odds, & everything would be pink unicorns & pastel rainbows.


I've had multi entire male dog households exist quite peacefully together. In the early months of 2015, I had an entire CO, an entire Westie, and an entire English Bull Terrier. All male and we never had one squabble, posturing, accidentally pregnancy/litter siring or peeing everywhere. I guess that means everything around me is pink unicorns and pastel rainbows?

WINNING! 

In all seriousness, I believe Katalyst is a very responsible owner who won't have entered into this lightly. I can't speak for her obviously but that's the impression I get 

I have no idea what the rescue was called so can't answer that one I'm afraid.


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## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Nope, starts with irresponsible pet ownership.
> Amazingly I and many others have managed to keep intact animals of all kinds without allowing indiscriminate breeding


This. I have an intact westie and he has never had his wicked way with a bitch, has never roamed or chased after a bitch in heat. This is because I don't allow it; I don't set him up to fail in this regard, and I train him to recall (well, stop in his tracks until I get to him, then roll onto his back while I either pick him up unceremoniously or put his lead back on him!)
I've never encountered a bitch in heat that I'm aware of. Either he's never been interested, or owners of bitches in heat have not walked them in areas where they might cause a stir 
I had a frank conversation with my vet about castration. We discussed the pros and cons, and how, to me, the pros of neutering just weren't enough to convince me against the pros of keeping him intact. He is a handsome boy, a good size and build for most of his life, and with a personality that is cheeky and adorable...the vet couldn't guarantee that wouldn't be altered if they removed his baubles. The vet was happy with my decision, and 11 years later I'm still happy with my decision.

Fidgey also came over intact. But that was because he was only 8 months old and had already been through so much. He was done not long after he came over, and it was the worst decision we made about his care. It exacerbated all of his issues. Yes, I would have neutered him eventually, but once he'd made headway with his issues and didn't need he confidence boost from the testosterone.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
while i'm at it & before going downstairs to cook dinner for my host family - i'll explain why intact MALE dogs are more-problematic than intact FEMALE dogs, when we're discussing pet-overpopn & S/N programs.
.
Any F dog is limited by biology to no more than 2 litters / year.
In the same time frame, an intact M dog can SIRE hundreds of pups; his progeny are limited only by the number of bitches he can find & impregnate, in that 12-mo period. Ergo, if funds are severely limited, it's much-more cost effective to neuter all M dogs before 6-MO, since spay surgeries are far-more costly, & also OHEs require more recovery time & care than a simple castration. One is intra-abdominal, major surgery, under GA; the other can be done with local anaesthetic, & generally is, when performed on livestock. Only our pets "need" GA for a neuter surgery / castration.
.
.
.


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## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

I'd go the other way, and say that all females should be spayed if you're looking to stop unwanted litters. Purely from a health perspective; the risk of complications from not spaying is greater than the risks from not neutering, right? And surely the cost of having to treat life-threatening pyometra, phantom pregnancies etc makes spaying cost-effective? (I know there are health risks from not neutering)


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

I'm sorry l4l but nothing you can say is going to convince me that neutering a male dog before 6 months is beneficial to anything.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> while i'm at it & before going downstairs to cook dinner for my host family - i'll explain why intact MALE dogs are more-problematic than intact FEMALE dogs, when we're discussing pet-overpopn & S/N programs.
> .
> ...


Your argument still boils down to irresponsible ownership...

Just because you castrate a dog does not mean the urge to find a bitch in heat will not be their...its always may stop the roaming, the humping etc.

Responsible owners regardless whether dogs have their balls or not do not let dogs wander, play with dogs in heat, etc. In fact if you read most threads here you would find most of us treat most other dog walkers as complete idiots and will do everything in our power to protect our dogs from their 'friendly' dogs.

Most so called 'accidental' litters in the UK are family pets, that happen time and time again but people prefer the term accident to byb breeder. Looks better in an advert.


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2016)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> while i'm at it & before going downstairs to cook dinner for my host family - i'll explain why intact MALE dogs are more-problematic than intact FEMALE dogs, when we're discussing pet-overpopn & S/N programs.
> .
> ...


OMG! We castrated all our horses under GA! No way in hell am I asking a vet to get underneath a horse to castrated with a local! Good grief!
As for how livestock are usually castrated, it's pretty barbaric and painful, and not exactly related to pets anyway...

For my own dogs, I'd much rather see my bitches spayed (once they're fully mature) than my dogs castrated. No reason to castrate if I'm fully capable of keeping my males from breeding, which I am. 
Bitches, yes, I'm going to spay because I'm not messing with pyo. Keyhole and OSS are not that big of a deal either. Or at least haven't been in the bitches I've dealt with.

I don't mind males being castrated, and if a rescue requires it before adoption, I'm not going to fuss. I just don't see the need - for me.

But definitely not before 6 months!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
Sorry, i disagree - 
NO rescue or shelter should re-home intact animals, & IMO that's not up for discussion. Flat statement; take it or leave it. We didn't even begin to get a handle on the pet-popn explosion in the USA until we began mandatory S/N at municipal shelters; before that, it was an ongoing deluge of entire litters of pups & kits, with or without their dams, plus free-roaming abandoned pets of all ages [who at least are human-socialized], plus feral & semi-feral animals of all ages, plus the minority: surrendered pets, who required a fee from the owner of record - much cheaper just to toss the pet out of the car in the next town over, & avoid the fee.
.
Re-homing intact animals only means yet another opportunity for the progeny of that intact pet, to come back & haunt the rescue / shelter for generations thereafter, with great-great-grandkids of the Patient Zero coming back with all their siblings, nieces, nephews, aunts, uncles, & 3rd cousins twice-removed.
If their progeny DON't return to the shelter of origin, then they may be abandoned to a life on the street, or dumped in their turn on another shelter or rescue, or picked up by ACOs in another jurisdiction, becoming THEIR taxpayers' problem. It never ends.
.
Re-homing intact animals is a waste of resources, & a waste of time. If they're available for adoption & they're applied for, & that home / adopter is approved, before that pet leaves the possession of the shelter, rescue, or foster home, s/he should be desexed. No matter what promises adopters make, no matter what contract they sign, getting compliance once the animal is in their possession is always a possibility, not a certainty, & all too often, it's a remote possibility.
.
Mandating S/N in pet homes within city limits is also helpful in preventing unwanted / unplanned litters, with the usual exceptions: breeding animals, potential breeding animals, intact pets who are shown or compete in venues which require they be intact. If they're not bred or shown, they must be snipped. U don't get forever to think about it, either; if they reach their 1st birthday & haven't yet been shown but are still intact, U need to apply for an extension & explain whey they haven't competed. There can be legit reasons - there can also be folks who are trying to game the rules.
.
Mandatory breeding licenses AKA permits can also be a helpful tool in limiting both the number of animals bred, & the cruelty that often results - neglect, poor care, sickly, parasite-riddled, malnourished. The permit is required even to breed ONE litter/ clutch of eggs; whether U give them away, sell them, keep them, no matter; U gotta have the permit.
Mark Kumpf, former head of Norfolk VA animal-control, pushed a mandatory-permit ordinance thru with an interesting clause: as long as the progeny are on the property, the property & the animals are INSPECTABLE. At one stell foop, all sorts of nagging issues that were difficult to address or combat became accessible: dirty conditions, sick animals, underage pups or kittens being sold, interstate traffic in underage animals, contagious disease, & more. It was brilliant - no warrant needed, no permission from the property owner or tenant - they'd already given it, when they signed the permit. Any ACO could stop by & ask to see the litter / dam / where they stayed, what they were fed, etc, or the bird cage / fish-tank / lizard vivarium/ other.
.
Now, a phone-call from an upset citizen saying that so-&-so had maggots in the food-bowls & old feces on the floor didn't result in rolled eyes or big sighs, but a visit to the address by a uniformed officer. If there was no problem, they thanked the owner for their co-operation, & left; if there was a problem, they might educate, warn, or fine them - they might even confiscate one or more pups / kittens / dam & litter, whatever is necessary.
If they didn't have the permit - there was an automatic fine, 1.5X the cost of the permit, plus any additional fines or legal fees. Suddenly, complying was cheaper than not. It was marvelous - the classified section for pets for sale was abruptly half the size it had been; the number of unaddressable complaints dropped to almost zero. NC breeders selling underage pups to buyers from Norfolk addresses, with no dam on the premises & often multiple litters, were prosecuted not only under city ordinances, but for Federal interstate violations.
Breeders who'd had legit complaints against them were monitored; if they'd learned from their mistakes, or been educated by the ACO / sent to the vet, they didn't violate again. If they refused to do what they'd been told to do, they were fined - repeatedly; or they could be banned from breeding, or even banned from owning pets, in flagrant neglect or cruelty cases.
.
That single ordinance was the best tool Norfolk ever had, in preventing neglect, cruelty, & husbandry violations.
I'll address the "responsible owner" myth in a separate post.
.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Kimmikins:

I'd go the other way, and say that all females should be spayed if you're looking to stop unwanted litters.

Purely from a health perspective, *the risk of complications from not spaying > the risk of complications from not neutering*, right?
And surely *the cost of treating life-threatening Pyo, phantom pregnancies, etc, makes spaying cost-effective?*
(I know there are health risks from not neutering.)

/QUOTE
.
.
K, i'm not sure U grasped the essential bit: i'm not talking about PETS. I'm talking about reducing the popn of free-roaming dogs [or cats] who are not OWNED by anyone. Island dogs & cats around the world, reservation dogs & cats in the USA, Moscow street dogs, Romania, Spain, Greece, India, Africa, the Arab countries, wherever.
I'm talking purely about getting the most-possible bang out of a very-limited supply of bucks, & spaying bitches isn't that. Spaying takes more time & more inputs: more sutures, mandatory GA, more post-surgery care. An average dog litter is 7 to 8; eliminating 16 possible puppies each year of her life by spaying 1 bitch is not nearly as cost-effective as neutering 1 male, & preventing many dozens or hundreds of pups each year of *his* life, at far-lower cost & in less time, with a mere fraction of the post-surgery care needed by Fs.
.
No one will be whisking a street bitch with a phantom pregnancy off the to the vet; odds are good no one will even notice it, or if they do, they'll assume she's preggo, & throw a rock at her, so she doesn't hang around to whelp in THEIR yard, she'll go have her dam*ed pups somewhere else. She'll survive Pyo, or die of it. Just like street dogs survive being hit by cars, or don't.
.
Speaking altogether callously of pet-overpopn in communities where they receive no care, bitches dying of Pyo is just fewer dogs on the street.
No one is required to provide food, medical care, preventive medicine [vaccines, heartworm preventive, antiparasitics...] etc, for these animals; they live or die thru their own struggles, or sheer luck, or the whims of passersby.
.
.
.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, Kimmikins:
> 
> I'd go the other way, and say that all females should be spayed if you're looking to stop unwanted litters.
> 
> ...


I think you are forgetting this forum is UK based....

We have rescue centres full to bursting, byb, unethical breeders but what we don't have is colonies of dogs roaming and making babies.

So although this thread was started about overseas rescues your idea about castration needing to be done, and done early by shelters and responsible dog owners is ridiculous for our country where the majority of members are UK based.

How can we ever look at the bigger picture per se of over population of dogs as worldwide? When dogs are not always viewed as pets in many countries, and still as scavengers that live amongst people, and they my friend are the lucky ones to say the least.

At the end of the day, even when vets do neuter programmes in remote areas what is the most important aspect of it all is to educate the dog owners on being responsible for the care of the animal. Education for responsible dog ownership has always been key.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Pappychi:

I'm sorry l4l but nothing you can say will convince me that neutering a male dog before 6 months is beneficial to anything.

/QUOTE
.
Municipal shelters & private rescues in the US do *pediatric desex *[8 to 14-WO] on pups or kittens who are being adopted, before they depart the premises. It's been done by progressive shelters since 1972, & became SOP in the early-80s; literally millions of shelter & rescue pups & kittens have been desexed before 4-MO.
Early desex has multiple advantages for the patient:
- they bleed less
- they scar less
- they have less post-op pain
- it's faster surgery / less time under GA
- lower risk of complications, including infection
- they recover faster
- they heal faster.
.
Dozens, possibly hundreds, of research papers support the data on pediatric desex & risk / benefit.
I'm happy to post links, if U'd want them. 
.
.
QUOTE, Ouesi:

...
I don't mind males being castrated, and if a rescue requires it before adoption, I won't fuss. I just don't see the need - for me.
But *definitely not (neutered) before 6-mos age!* 

/QUOTE
.
I have 2 Qs:
- What's so magical about 6-MO?
- What are shelters & rescues spozed to do with M pups *under* 6-mos age?
.
It's nearly midnite - i'm off to bed. Good-night, all. 
.
.
.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Kimmikins said:


> I'd go the other way, and say that all females should be spayed if you're looking to stop unwanted litters. Purely from a health perspective; the risk of complications from not spaying is greater than the risks from not neutering, right? And surely the cost of having to treat life-threatening pyometra, phantom pregnancies etc makes spaying cost-effective? (I know there are health risks from not neutering)


Not to mention the risk of mammary tumours


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

A lot of rescues with dogs under 6 months adopt them out with a spay/neuter clause, they have to be done within a certain time frame. Generally 6 months seems to be the age although personally I still feel that's far too young, I believe the hormones are needed for more than just reproduction and there's no way I'd neuter one of mine that young unless absolutely necessary. And sorry L4L, there's nothing you can say that will convince me it's beneficial to do so, same as I'm sure there's nothing the rest of us can say that will change your opinion on the matter. 

And I think your comments about Katalyst were rather rude, she's not some irresponsible twit going by her posts on here and I highly doubt she thought it was going to be all unicorn farts and rainbow dust.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> while i'm at it & before going downstairs to cook dinner for my host family - i'll explain why intact MALE dogs are more-problematic than intact FEMALE dogs, when we're discussing pet-overpopn & S/N programs.
> .
> ...


I cannot agree with you that all males should be neutered before 6 months. Mine was done very young and the vet is convinced that this has contributed significantly to his behavioural problems.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

MiffyMoo said:


> I cannot agree with you that all males should be neutered before 6 months. Mine was done very young and the vet is convinced that this has contributed significantly to his behavioural problems.


My tuppence ha'penny in short.

Oscar's had a hip replacement replaced due to him outgrowing the first.

When I initially called the specialist/surgeon about Ozzy's HD at eight months of age, the first question he asked was 'Has your dog been castrated?'
He then told me had he been so the chances of a successful post op outcome for the dog would be limited even doubtful.
Castration of a giant as early as six months is wholly detrimental to the dog and to suggest or assert otherwise is dangerous practice.:Rage


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> A lot of rescues with dogs under 6 months adopt them out with a spay/neuter clause, they have to be done within a certain time frame. Generally 6 months seems to be the age although personally I still feel that's far too young, I believe the hormones are needed for more than just reproduction and there's no way I'd neuter one of mine that young unless absolutely necessary. And sorry L4L, there's nothing you can say that will convince me it's beneficial to do so, same as I'm sure there's nothing the rest of us can say that will change your opinion on the matter.
> 
> And I think your comments about Katalyst were rather rude, she's not some irresponsible twit going by her posts on here and I highly doubt she thought it was going to be all unicorn farts and rainbow dust.


I think there are valid arguments for delaying or avoiding neutering in well bred dogs in knowledgeable/responsible homes.

IMO it should be mandatory for rescues/rehomers to neuter all dogs before releasing them to their new home. Any possible negatives are outweighed by the need to curb indiscriminate breeding, as well as mismanagement of entire dogs, particularly males, again IMO.

If they were unwanted and facing life in rescue or pts, then neutering (even with some small potential health risk) is preferable.

I like the idea of mandatory licensing for all unneutered dogs (and other species) with strict rules as outlined in L4L's post - which seemed to have a good outcome for the animals.

If owners want to keep their animals entire, then they need to be monitored closely to prevent them from breeding - unless permitted to do so, using the compulsory microchip as a means of record perhaps.

The problem is massive so something does need to be done.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

In my experience multi bitch households seem to have a lot more problems with aggression than male dog households.

I find the early neutering a difficult one. I cannot see any reason to do them earlier than 6 months, that seems barbaric. I am torn on doing bitches at 6 months as it goes against all I was taught years ago but it seems the norm now with no ill effects except maybe a less 'mature' coat as the coat definitely changes in most breeds after a season. With dogs, I hate so see the very long legged male dogs that have been done at 6 months. It seems totally unnecessary and even if you want your dog castrated, and in many homes it is sensible to do, it is not like having to live through seasons so why not just wait till 18 months.

Ouesi, I have seen colts gelded both standing and under GA and I actually would choose standing. I have assisted with barely handled ones standing and there was no particular trauma. As for farm animals, I hope it is not barbaric. They are usually done young and though a calf will kick a bit in annoyance they do not actually show signs of pain - easily diagnosed in calves who tend to give out an enormous bellow if frightened or hurt! The only one I have ever seen that suffered was one a new vet did for us with local anaesthetic and that really hurt him.


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

leashedForLife said:


> . I'll address the "responsible owner" myth in a separate post.


I'm not a Myth. I can assure you that me and other responsible owners do in fact exist .

@Blitz makes a very good point about multi bitch households, I'm sure LFL you've heard the saying 'dogs fight to breed, bitches fight to breathe'? I find bitches, well bitchier! But that's just me 

Early neutering is something that I will never go for and I will never do it on my own dogs.


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## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

simplysardonic said:


> Not to mention the risk of mammary tumours


I'd forgotten about those  Yes, definitely those too.



MiffyMoo said:


> I cannot agree with you that all males should be neutered before 6 months. Mine was done very young and the vet is convinced that this has contributed significantly to his behavioural problems.


Ditto for Fidget. The first thing his behaviourist said was that she wished she could Velcro them back on.

In Bulgaria, where Fidgey is from, has a huge stray problem. Dogs over there are every rarely pets, they are vermin, to be shot at/poisoned/run over. So, while Fidget came over intact due to him being young and having also had so much trauma in his life that it wasn't really kind at the time, the plan was always to neuter him. I just wish I'd waited until now, as I don't think he'd be anywhere near as bad as he is now if we'd waited.
Over there, a spay neuter program would be ideal. And in that regard, yes maybe focussing on snipping the males is the most cost effective method. But if we're talking about accidental litters in households, which is what I interpreted the thread to be about, then I'd go spay. Every time.

And there is no myth about responsible pet ownership. If you feel there is then I feel sorry for you.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Im just going to leave this here...

DSC_0717_01 by Ned Ster, on Flickr

My ENTIRE, 15 month old RESCUE, who will not have his rather lovely nadgers off unless medically appropriate/necessary.

Trying to figure out how that makes me irresponsible, but hey ho.


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Nonnie said:


> Im just going to leave this here...
> 
> DSC_0717_01 by Ned Ster, on Flickr
> 
> ...


What a picture  He's lovely


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

@leashedForLife shelters here generally rehome dogs under 6 months of age with contracts that you have to sign agreeing to get them done at that point. Many also get a confirmation from your vet that they will do the procedure (presumably to avoid owners not getting it done and then saying it was because their vet advised against it). Many also won't consider a home where any resident dogs are un neutered. We took Indie on with just such a contract, although not the letter from the vet part. When I booked her spay at 6 months my vet advised against it but I somewhat naively felt I had signed a contract and so I must honour it and went ahead and got her done. I'm sure most people know her history but just in case at 11 months she had ruptured both cruciate ligaments and to my horror was diagnosed with bilateral elbow dysplasia at the same time requiring surgery to all 4 limbs over a 6 month period. This was closely followed by luxating patella also requiring surgery. One elbow surgery didn't have a good result and she had to go back for more leaving her with permanent lameness and arthritis to all 4 legs. I will never forgive myself for not listening to my vet and to the many people who told me not to get her done until she was mature. You have no idea what its like to sit up all night with a dog in pain and distress and know that something you did may have been the cause.


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, AppleCrumlin
> 
> (Does) anyone have statistics on the number of (UK) dogs euthanised each year (as) "unwanted"?
> Obviously, it's difficult to get accurate numbers, but I've noticed a growing trend (to import strays for adoption here), which makes me wonder if (UK) pet overpopulation is actually beginning to come under control.
> ...


I'm not sure where you got it that Steel the rescue was entire because he was neutered shortly before we got him. 
Logans best buddies include other intact males and given the discussion I had with the rescue prior to taking steel on, all sounded like a good fit at the time. 
Gonads are at least in part responsible for rather more than producing ejaculate which I'm sure you're more than aware of. 
I'm also entirely unsure where you found anything suggesting we've taken on a third dog? 
For the sake of clarity - I have a single dog. An intact male lurcher of just over one year of age. 
We took on a 3 to 5 year old recently neutered male from Cyprus. Sadly we weren't told prior to this about his reactivity and it transpired that we weren't the best hope for him and it was stressful and heartbreaking. 
I wouldn't have taken on a second entire male that I hadn't been able to allow Logan to meet multiple times first. The rescue assured me that Steel is a wonderful dog (which he is) and very dog friendly all round. They were wrong. Simple. 
We are on a waiting list for an Australian shepherd sometime at the end of next year. I am still half considering a rescue as dog number two but I'm in no rush.

I hope that clears things up for you.


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, PappyChi:
> 
> ... I believe Katayst is going to (buy) a puppy Australian Shepherd... which (will be) the third dog.
> At the minute, she just owns Logan --- following Steele going into foster (care).
> ...


Thanks you @Pappychi for explaining that for me. I haven't checked back for a while.



Pappychi said:


> I've had multi entire male dog households exist quite peacefully together. In the early months of 2015, I had an entire CO, an entire Westie, and an entire English Bull Terrier. All male and we never had one squabble, posturing, accidentally pregnancy/litter siring or peeing everywhere. I guess that means everything around me is pink unicorns and pastel rainbows?
> 
> WINNING!
> 
> ...


I would just like to assure you that I have more than 11 functional braincells (some of the time at least!) and believe wholeheartedly in research PRIOR to taking on animals. Not after. 
So yes, I am fully aware that it isn't always a great mix having two entire males which is why I wouldn't contemplate rehousing an entire male to live with Logan when we can't assess their behaviour together repeatedly and at length first. 
For this reason, I went to a rescue that castrates.

I don't quite get why you have decided to pick me apart for what happened with steel. I'm not sure why you think I'm an incapable or irresponsible owner. 
If it helps to ease your concerns over my capabilities, please know that I am qualified in various area of Animal management, welfare and behaviour and teach animal management for a living to students aged 16 to 30.

I hope this eases your mind.


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

@Katalyst did you mean to quote me? :Hilarious


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Pappychi said:


> What a picture  He's lovely


It's been his default setting since a puppy tbh.

IMG_5454 by Ned Ster, on Flickr

Look how cute his balls were then! They were so soft too.


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

Pappychi said:


> @Katalyst did you mean to quote me? :Hilarious


Yep! Just as a quick nod of thanks for clarifying that I'm not some mental case taking on all manner of entire foreign dogs lol.


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Katalyst said:


> Yep! Just as a quick nod of thanks for clarifying that I'm not some mental case taking on all manner of entire foreign dogs lol.


Ah makes sense now  I was a bit perplexed initially but reading it back I get it now


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

Pappychi said:


> Ah makes sense now  I was a bit perplexed initially but reading it back I get it now


Haha!
I didn't think I'd managed to make my dog related fiasco so convoluted that anyone could think I owned three random entire males plucked from random rescues with exactly zero consideration given to their temperaments.... but clearly I was wrong hahaha.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Katalyst said:


> I'm not sure where you got it that Steel the rescue was entire because he was neutered shortly before we got him.
> Logans best buddies include other intact males and given the discussion I had with the rescue prior to taking steel on, all sounded like a good fit at the time.
> Gonads are at least in part responsible for rather more than producing ejaculate which I'm sure you're more than aware of.
> I'm also entirely unsure where you found anything suggesting we've taken on a third dog?
> ...





Katalyst said:


> Thanks you @Pappychi for explaining that for me. I haven't checked back for a while.
> 
> I would just like to assure you that I have more than 11 functional braincells (some of the time at least!) and believe wholeheartedly in research PRIOR to taking on animals. Not after.
> So yes, I am fully aware that it isn't always a great mix having two entire males which is why I wouldn't contemplate rehousing an entire male to live with Logan when we can't assess their behaviour together repeatedly and at length first.
> ...


Am so sorry you have had to do this, I do hope you all understand that we as I type and use the word we mean the majority of this forum, fully understood why Steel did not work out.

As myself, and others have said, that the same may have happened if Steel came from kennels in the UK. Since dogs can act so differently when in a home environment, than kennels.

Again, L4L although can offer advise, but starts off berating someone for no reason, states about responsible dog ownership...goes off track to defend what he states about being worldwide problem without noting world wide this is a UK petforum and the majority will relate to here and now.

So sorry you got caught in the cross fire, for someone who has thought long and hard about dog ownership, and its clear from the posts it is a shame when you have had to defend yourself in this way.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
Q -
did anyone actually *read* my prior post, in which i pointed out *emphatically *& at length, that in advocating "neuter all Ms" i'm discussing the least-co$t / most-effective means to REDUCE * EXISTING * POPNS * OF * FREE-ROAMING * FREE-BREEDING * DOGS?!
It doesn't appear that anyone did. Funny, that. 
.
I tried in that post to make it glaringly obvious that the "responsible owner" in that scenario is a MYTH because _*there is No Owner*, _responsible, irresponsible, whatever. Nobody "owns" them. No one can be REQUIRED to provide food, water, shelter, or even the most-basic vet care. They live or die entirely by their own efforts, sheer luck, & the occasional kindness of strangers - most locals despise them, & stoning, shooting, poisoning, kicking them, etc, are commonplace. It's usually tourists who feel sorry for them, & offer food, water, or take an injured / obviously ill dog to a vet.
Please go back & read post #65 - it's short. Then tell me how U can possibly think i'm discussing OWNED pets.
.
QUOTE, SimplySardonic:

Not to mention the risk of mammary tumours 

/QUOTE
.
I haven't forgotten them, SS - they're the primary reason that i urge pet owners of bitch-pups to spay before 6-mos age, to prevent their non-breeding F pup from going thru her 1st estrus. That eliminates 99.99% of 'breast cancer' risk, which is 4X as common in F dogs as in F humans.
F pups can enter estrus any time from 5-MO on, since they can be 'accelerated' into estrus by encountering estrus pheromones from another intact F, & those can waft in the window from a half-mile away, or be in urine along the curb.
.
But again: we're discussing 2 distinct popns, OWNED pets, & FREE-BREEDING roaming dogs. If a Bahama beach dog or a street dog in India develops breast tumors, no one will worry about it - & by the time she's symptomatic, the vast majority of Fs have metastisized to their lungs. IOW, that street-dog will quickly die of her cancer, if she isn't hit by a car, shot, poisoned, etc, first.
Returning to OWNED pets, almost 70% of Fs diagnosed with 'breast cancer' are euthanized at the same vet-appt where they're diagnosed, as it's already in their lungs. That's why prevention is key.
.
QUOTE, Sarah1983:

A lot of rescues with *dogs under 6-months adopt them out with a S/N clause, they have to be [desexed] within a certain time frame.* Generally 6 months seems to be the age...
/QUOTE
.
As i've already said several times, COMPLIANCE is the problem; in the USA, it averages a mere 40%.
A s/n clause is a joke, here; the US is 3,500-miles coast to coast across, & IIRC, 1800-miles from Canada to the coast of Texas. Merikans move on average every 2-yrs. Pursuing someone who couldn't be arsed to get their pet desexed is bl**dy expensive, & wastes time & resources of law-enforcement much better invested elsewhere.
Just making follow-up phone calls & demanding a FAX from the vet who did the surgery, is a waste of time; many ppl refuse to respond.
If they're desexed before they leave the custody of shelter or rescue, it's a fait accompli - the owner doesn't have to arrange for the appt, fast the pet, drop them off, pick them up, etc. It's DONE. No excuses, no delays, no "oops" litters.
.
QUOTE, MiffyMoo:

I cannot agree with you that *all males should be neutered before 6-months.*
Mine was done very young, & the vet is convinced that this has contributed significantly to his behavioural problems.

/QUOTE
.
One more time: 
"desex all Ms B4 6-mos" refers to FREE-ROAMING ownerless dogs - the very popns that produce overseas adoptables.
.
Re Ur own dog, i'm sorry to hear he has behavior problems, but i'd like evidence of this supposed causative link.
I have one request:
please find at least one research paper (from a peer-reviewed journal, not an opinion piece or a blog) with data that links pubertal [5 to 8-MO], prepubertal [12-WO thru 19-WO], & pediatric desex [8-WO to 12-WO] with *long-term future behavior problems in fearful / timid / shy MALE pups* [Fs, even timid Fs, are apparently immune, which only makes this legend even harder to swallow.]
.
I now live in the region of the US with the highest S/N ratio in the nation - an average 75% of pets here are desexed. [In some areas, e-g, downtown Boston, it's 90%.] As a direct result, unwanted litters & even homeless adult pets are few.
New England shelters & rescues *import thousands of dogs, cats, kittens & pups from overcrowded out-of-state shelters & rescues, every year. *It's a good problem to have, IMO - animals who'd be killed & cremated wholesale or fill landfills are brought here, vetted, desexed, placed with experienced fosters or given special attn in shelters, & find homes.
.
Most come from abysmal circs: born under sheds or in barns, undersocialized to humans, chased, kicked, cussed out, lifetime neglected strays, & so on. Many are globally fearful [meaning everything scares them: strangers, traffic, noises, going into a house or car, leashes, their collars... ]. They're vaxed B4 transport, & if they were starving, they've been fed to a decent wt - the shelter or rescue of origin does that much.
Their advantages are youth & health - they survived; they're tough. Most come from the Midwest or Southeast, & if they're over 15 to 18-mos, they usually need heartworm eradication [cats & dogs both]. Younger animals are tested for HW & if neg, desexed immediately - so they've healed before anyone applies to adopt them. HW patients are desexed if they survive the treatment [most do].
Here's the deal: 
if any popn of spooky M dogs was liable to develop "lifelong fears" post-castration, it would be these dogs.
I should see them everywhere - cringing, flinching, jumping at every sound. *But i don't. *Many arrive petrified, literally rigid with fright; they move like slo-mo robots, with stiff caution. Others shake - their legs, bodies, even their ears tremble. These dogs are mostly hound-mixes, so they're easy to pick out - tricolor, orange & white, red & white, ticked legs, blanket backs, saddles, Irish markings [white blaze or strip, collar, bib], etc.
A couple of weeks or months later, U see them out with fosters or adopters, & they're just dogs - on Summer St or Mass Ave, waiting outside a shop, riding by in cars, laying under a table at a cafe', in the pet-supply shops, romping in the dog parks.
.
Unless they're HW-pos, the 1st thing that happens after they get here is desex; no one is 'addressing behavior issues' when they've just arrived, they're being vetted. AFTER all the medical stuff is done - then, the foster or a staffer starts training, socialization, & habituation. Desex isn't postponed for the batsh*t-crazy deep-dyed spooks, either - the ones who p*ss themselves if U sneeze. Everybody's snipped ASAP.
.
I arrived here July-2012. I've seen literally hundreds of out-of-state adoptees, at adoption events, on the street, in pet-supplies, grooming salons, elevators, the subway, apt-bldg corridors - taxis, the ferry, buses. The MBTA [public transit] is pet-friendly, & dogs go everywhere ppl do, except for restaurants - outdoor cafes usually ignore well-behaved dogs, & many welcome them.
.
In all that time - 4 years! - _*i've seen exactly 3 OOS-adoptee dogs who had some remaining timidity*, _& for the record, 2 of the 3 were F. --- Where are all the 'lifelong spooks' created by their "lost confidence" when their testicles were removed?
Unlike cats & many other pets, dogs must go out in public daily, at least to void - so they can't be hidden at home.
.
Other relevent experience:
I spent over 10-yrs in Tidewater, VA - source of quite a few OOS-adoptee dogs in New England homes. I volunteered with many shelters, all-breed rescues, & even breed-specific rescues [CBRs, Goldens, GDs, AmBulls, Rough Collies, among others].
Some long-time partnerships were with PACC [Partners Among Cats & Canines, 501-3c], Norfolk ACC, & Norfolk SPCA. All of them got timid dogs or spooky pups in on a regular basis, as owner-surrenders or strays in the shelters, & as "found" animals [strays, abandoned] or pulled from shelters by PACC.
.
Michele, who co-founded PACC with her mother as a 25-YO with a husband & a baby, was a sucker for spooks of all ages, She'd take in dogs that the shelters would've euthanized next morning before opening to the public; they'd never have been seen there by anyone but employees. She'd cherry-pick spooks from shelters who were destined for death; she couldn't walk past a dog trying to hide in plain sight in a bare pen.
Other rescues, like K9 NewLife, cherry-picked happy, friendly, untrained but lovable dogs - Michele preferred the losers & the oddly-twisted or seriously-warped.
As a result of her, errm, excessive compassion [her husband would call it an obsession], i got plenty of extra practice in working with feral, semi-feral, & born-timid dogs & pups. Some i saw once a week for months [a 7-YO Dalmatian who bit when scared or stressed; she also had severe pica]; others stayed for the day, or overnight, or for a week or more.
_*Every PACC dog, M or F, pup or adult, was desexed before being listed for adoption - *_as soon as she could get an appt with her fave vet, they were examined, tested for HW, vaxed, & desexed ASAP. Only HW-pos dogs had desex delayed till after their treatment; everyone else was desexed immed, usually within 48 to 72-hrs.
*Every PACC dog, M or F, pup or adult, was eventually placed in a pet home with APOs *_[Average pet-Owners] - _*not as a 'pet project' with a pro or hobby trainer.* Even the genuine basket-cases, EX: 5 littermates from a North Carolina hoarder, were adopted by ordinary folks & became pets within the normal spectrum - albeit some retained a few quirks.
For instance, U couldn't have an angry argument around the Dalmatian - she'd become seriously stressed, have a pica attack, & swallow the nearest inedible object. OTOH, her adopters adored her, & she was very happy with them - maybe she saved their marriage, who knows? ;--}
Dakota, one of the 'cowboy' pups from the NC hoarder [Dakota, Winchester, Montana, Colt, & Bowie], had the sad distinction of being the most-damaged dog i've ever worked with to this day; the 1st dog i used an AnxietyWrap on, he was also the 1st 'posable' dog i'd ever seen in the flesh - i'd only seen such terror in videos, before. Pick up one foot, & he'd stand 3-legged like a statue, his paw still elevated in the position where U left it in midair - when his 3 legs began to shake with fatigue, he'd swallow audibly with anxiety & begin to stress-pant *THRU HIS NOSE*, afraid to open his mouth to pant.
Let it go on much longer, & he'd inhale loudly thru his nose, & puff it out under his flews - with his jaws closed. Eventually, he'd lurch toward the unsupported side, put his paw down, flinch, & fold to the ground in expectation of punishment with his eyes shut.
.
He arrived in August, just in time for Hurricane Bonnie. He was adopted by a couple with a Golden-cross that Dakota adored, & went home on Thanksgiving weekend - his 'step-brother' was a big help in novel situations, modeling calm behavior. But Dakota had come an enormous way - he now ran *to* U to be leashed for a walk, enjoyed petting, liked sofas, played hide-&-seek and tag, & could ride shotgun in a seatbelt harness & accept a biscuit from the drive-in teller at the bank.
*If neutering had somehow made his fears permanent & even exacerbated them, as U allege it will in fearful male dogs, this dog, IMO, would have needed space in a sanctuary, & been kept like a timid endangered-species specimen in a zoo for the rest of his life - or he'd have been euthanized as an act of mercy, to end his harrowing life.*
So why did Dakota, an absolute train-wreck on intake, show such resilience - despite losing his gonads?
(Before anyone asks, I don't have a magick wand.) Why did his 2 brothers, almost as screwed-up as Cody, also go on to unremarkable lives in pet homes?
How did all these sad, scared losers *avoid *the terrible fate U seem to think is inevitable?
.
.
.


----------



## Guest (Jul 29, 2016)

leashedForLife said:


> Q -
> did anyone actually *read* my prior post, in which i pointed out *emphatically *& at length, that in advocating "neuter all Ms" i'm discussing the least-co$t / most-effective means to REDUCE * EXISTING * POPNS * OF * FREE-ROAMING * FREE-BREEDING * DOGS?!
> It doesn't appear that anyone did. Funny, that.


To be fair, your posts are really hard to read. Between the formatting, and abbreviations and things like using a dollar sign instead of an "s", it does get hard to follow your posts...

And by the same token, you are not listening to members who are giving their opinions on pet dogs. 
AFAIK the UK does not have a problem with free roaming, free breeding populations of feral dogs....


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

ouesi said:


> AFAIK the UK does not have a problem with free roaming, free breeding populations of feral dogs....


I can confirm that in the Midlands we do not have any free-roaming packs of feral dogs on our streets. I'll leave other members to comment on their respective geographical areas :Watching


----------



## Canine K9 (Feb 22, 2013)

Pappychi said:


> I can confirm that in the Midlands we do not have any free-roaming packs of feral dogs on our streets. I'll leave other members to comment on their respective geographical areas :Watching


We have plenty of teenage chavs who walk around in packs looking 'ard.. do they count?


----------



## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

None here either (gloucestershire)


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

I have a couple of feral pigeons nesting in my conifer. Can we neuter them? Baby pigeons are ugly little buggers.


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Nonnie said:


> I have a couple of feral pigeons nesting in my conifer. Can we neuter them? Baby pigeons are ugly little buggers.


You've SEEN a baby pigeon?! 

I thought they always came fully grown. We have the pigeon equivalent of Mike Tyson roosting around here, even the cats think naff that :Wideyed


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Pappychi said:


> You've SEEN a baby pigeon?!
> 
> I thought they always came fully grown. We have the pigeon equivalent of Mike Tyson roosting around here, even the cats think naff that :Wideyed


Sadly, yes. Numerous times.

Like something from a horror movie!


----------



## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

Too long, stopped reading if I'm honest!

However, I did see that you were questioning the many claims from us owners who have dogs with behavioural issues, about the links with early spay/neuter. So here you go:



> Although spay/neuter had been previously linked to cognitive impairment and even a three fold risk of hypothyroidism, which often creates behavior changes, the Viszla study yielded some particularly interesting insight into this link.
> 
> In the study, spayed and neutered dogs were also more likely to develop behavior disorders than intact dogs.
> 
> ...


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Nonnie said:


> Sadly, yes. Numerous times.
> 
> Like something from a horror movie!


WTF IS THAT?! 

How am I going to sleep tonight?! :Nailbiting No wonder no one sees them, everyone passes out with horror and attempts to forget the monstrous little buggers.


----------



## Guest (Jul 29, 2016)

Nonnie said:


> Sadly, yes. Numerous times.
> 
> Like something from a horror movie!


Aw wooket the ickle baby!! 
Soo cute!!

:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Aw wooket the ickle baby!!
> Soo cute!!
> 
> :Hilarious:Hilarious


Mods! Ban please!


----------



## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

Nonnie said:


> Sadly, yes. Numerous times.
> 
> Like something from a horror movie!


I thought that was something an animal had coughed up...


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Pappychi said:


> I can confirm that in the Midlands we do not have any free-roaming packs of feral dogs on our streets. I'll leave other members to comment on their respective geographical areas :Watching


None here in the south west of England either - why did I think you lived in Cornwall?


----------



## Guest (Jul 29, 2016)

Nonnie said:


> Mods! Ban please!


:Mooning:Mooning:Troll:Troll


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Nonnie said:


> Sadly, yes. Numerous times.
> 
> Like something from a horror movie!


Wow that is so cute. A bit pre historic looking granted and more like I imagine a Do Do but cute all the same.


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> None here in the south west of England either - why did I think you lived in Cornwall?


I've never actually been to Cornwall 

I live in Lutterworth, Leicestershire


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Pappychi said:


> WTF IS THAT?!
> 
> How am I going to sleep tonight?! :Nailbiting No wonder no one sees them, everyone passes out with horror and attempts to forget the monstrous little buggers.


:Jawdrop:Jawdrop how can you say that, they are adorable and I want one


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Wow that is so cute. A bit pre historic looking granted and more like I imagine a Do Do but cute all the same.


Whens your birthday?

Perhaps we can all chip in for some Specsavers vouchers.


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> :Jawdrop:Jawdrop how can you say that, they are adorable and I want one


How can you think that is adorable?! 

It looks something Tom hacks up when he has a bad hairball :Vomit

Now this is cute.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Nonnie said:


> Whens your birthday?
> 
> Perhaps we can all chip in for some Specsavers vouchers.


Well now you come to mention it I did have an eye test last week and she said everything was fine just to increase the strength of my reading glasses which I haven't done yet but to my eyes he is rather lovely


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Pappychi said:


> How can you think that is adorable?!
> 
> It looks something Tom hacks up when he has a bad hairball :Vomit
> 
> ...


Yes that is cute too but the baby pidgie is just as cute. His face reminds me of Colt's


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes that is cute too but the baby pidgie is just as cute. His face reminds me of Colt's


Poor Colt :Jawdrop

Don't you listen to your mum my lovely handsome GSP friend, we are having a whip around to send her off to Specsavers and she'll realise that you don't look like a baby pigeon :Hilarious


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes that is cute too but the baby pidgie is just as cute. His face reminds me of Colt's


OMG you just insulted your own dog!

Pigeon babies are like the dog from The Fly (2 i think) where it comes out of the machine inside out.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Pappychi said:


> Poor Colt :Jawdrop
> 
> Don't you listen to your mum my lovely handsome GSP friend, we are having a whip around to send her off to Specsavers and she'll realise that you don't look like a baby pigeon :Hilarious


Nowt wrong with my eyes


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Nowt wrong with my eyes


How can you compare that lovely face to that baby pigeon above?! He's much more handsome :Kiss


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Pappychi said:


> How can you compare that lovely face to that baby pigeon above?! He's much more handsome :Kiss


Its the mouth/beak that reminded me of Colt especially when his ears are flat back against his head.


----------



## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

I can confirm that Central Scotland (Stirling) does not have a problem with free-roaming/feral dogs. 

I mean, one escapes it's garden every now and again and is picked up by the dog warden but that's as exciting as it gets...


----------



## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Oh, and I think the baby pigeon is cute


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

I just thought I'd update you all that my drive currently has a problem with feral hedgehogs. Family of four doing their nightly rounds. 

:Smug


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Lauren5159 said:


> Oh, and I think the baby pigeon is cute


Oh not you an all!

igeon


----------



## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Pappychi said:


> Oh not you an all!
> 
> igeon


Okay, so it's a bit rough around the edges and resembles something Skip might puke up at 3am, but all that aside -it's quite endearing :Happy

And I am currently wearing my glasses... Specsavers too!


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

People eat them you know. 

A delicacy.

:Vomit


----------



## Guest (Jul 29, 2016)

I love it!
Forget the spay/neuter debate, let’s debate cuteness of baby pigeons!  :Hilarious


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Lauren5159 said:


> Okay, so it's a bit rough around the edges and resembles something Skip might puke up at 3am, but all that aside -it's quite endearing :Happy
> 
> And I am currently wearing my glasses... Specsavers too!


I'm gonna tell Skip you said that :Hilarious


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Ok, im gonna admit to this one being kinda cute. Must not be one of the annoying UK varieties.


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

I think all baby birds which look like the above ^ look like a certain part of the male anatomy


----------



## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Pappychi said:


> I'm gonna tell Skip you said that :Hilarious


Oooh, fighting talk!

They're really quite sweet. Look!


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Pappychi said:


> I think all baby birds which look like the above ^ look like a certain part of the male anatomy


Damn you!

I cant unsee that now.


----------



## Guest (Jul 29, 2016)

Pappychi said:


> I think all baby birds which look like the above ^ look like a certain part of the male anatomy


Dude... what kind of men are you dating?!


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Dude... what kind of men are you dating?!


At the minute. None


----------



## Guest (Jul 29, 2016)

Pappychi said:


> At the minute. None


Might be time to get out there if baby birds are making you see parts of the male anatomy! 
Just sayin'...  

And if you DO date someone and they have a beak and feathers down there, you might want to re-consider your screening process :Hilarious


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Might be time to get out there if baby birds are making you see parts of the male anatomy!
> Just sayin'...
> 
> And if you DO date someone and they have a beak and feathers down there, you might want to re-consider your screening process :Hilarious


I have just spat wine over one of my very disgruntled cats. I hope you're happy!

Yes, maybe you're right. Unfortunately, I have my mother's problem of having a naff off face :Hilarious


----------



## Guest (Jul 29, 2016)

Pappychi said:


> I have just spat wine over one of my very disgruntled cats. I hope you're happy!
> 
> Yes, maybe you're right. Unfortunately, I have my mother's problem of having a naff off face :Hilarious


I don't know what a naff off face is, (is that RBF?) but you have no idea the pain I am in right now trying not to comment about you spitting wine on your cats....
Must
Not
Make
Inappropriate
Spitting
Joke.....


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Pappychi said:


> I think all baby birds which look like the above ^ look like a certain part of the male anatomy


Don't you mean turkey gizzards?


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

ouesi said:


> I don't know what a naff off face is, (is that RBF?) but you have no idea the pain I am in right now trying not to comment about you spitting wine on your cats....
> Must
> Not
> Make
> ...


I don't know what RBF stands for but it is known as an F-off face in less polite circles 

Oh don't you start. I'm not a Willy Expert/Inspector like some of us on here


----------



## Guest (Jul 29, 2016)

Pappychi said:


> I don't know what RBF stands for but it is known as an F-off face in less polite circles
> 
> Oh don't you start. I'm not a Willy Expert/Inspector like some of us on here


Resting bitch face. So yeah, basically


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Resting bitch face. So yeah, basically


Aha! I get it now  Yes I suffer with it chronically.

People ask me what's wrong all the time. Nothing is wrong. It's just my face :Sorry


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Don't you mean turkey gizzards?


Heavily regretting getting Turkey out for Bear's breakfast tomorrow :Vomit


----------



## Guest (Jul 29, 2016)

Pappychi said:


> Oh don't you start. I'm not a Willy Expert/Inspector like some of us on here


Pfft at least I don't get willies confused with baby birds! So wrong, on so many levels!


----------



## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> Q -
> did anyone actually *read* my prior post, in which i pointed out *emphatically *& at length, that in advocating "neuter all Ms" i'm discussing the least-co$t / most-effective means to REDUCE * EXISTING * POPNS * OF * FREE-ROAMING * FREE-BREEDING * DOGS?!
> It doesn't appear that anyone did. Funny, that.
> ...


I read through all of this trying to find an apology for essentially accusing me of being a shit owner on a public forum for imagined reasons.

Thanks for not even bothering :/


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

No doubt she will go to bed with a gherkin sandwich in a minute


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Pfft at least I don't get willies confused with baby birds! So wrong, on so many levels!


 What can I say? I have a vivid imagination.

I think this thread has taken some amazing twists and turns this evening :Hilarious


----------



## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> No doubt she will go to bed with a gherkin sandwich in a minute


Or if she's feeling really posh... Cucumber sandwich? :Hilarious


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> No doubt she will go to bed with a gherkin sandwich in a minute


Whatcha say that for :Hungry


----------



## Guest (Jul 29, 2016)

Lauren5159 said:


> Or if she's feeling really posh... Cucumber sandwich? :Hilarious


Hey, cucumber & tomato sandwich are the yummiest! Especially this time of year with garden ripe tomatoes and cucumbers... YUM!


----------



## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Pappychi said:


> How can you think that is adorable?!
> 
> It looks something Tom hacks up when he has a bad hairball :Vomit
> 
> ...


I have to say I prefer the baby pigeon.


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

I've recently discovered the joys of Mcdonalds Fries dipped in a McFlurry.

Yum. Yum. Sadly we have no gherkins here tonight :Sorry So a slice of Victoria Sponge is gonna have to do!


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Firedog said:


> I have to say I prefer the baby pigeon.


NOOOOOOOO! :Arghh:Arghh:Arghh:Arghh


----------



## Guest (Jul 29, 2016)

Pappychi said:


> I think this thread has taken some amazing twists and turns this evening :Hilarious


Best thread turn in a while :Finger

What do you want to bet though in the morning someone comes on, reads the first few pages, posts a reply to the original topic, only to realize the thread has completely changed course 
I always love those.

Talking about gonads and tomato sandwiches and someone plows in all indignant about neutering. Always cracks me up :Hilarious


----------



## Guest (Jul 29, 2016)

Pappychi said:


> Yum. Yum. Sadly we have no gherkins here tonight :Sorry So a slice of Victoria Sponge is gonna have to do!


I still think Victoria Sponge sounds like some hippy form of birth control....


----------



## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Hey, cucumber & tomato sandwich are the yummiest! Especially this time of year with garden ripe tomatoes and cucumbers... YUM!


What the? 

That's so wrong on so many levels!

Although, I'm partial to a ketchup sandwich :Bag


----------



## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I still think Victoria Sponge sounds like some hippy form of birth control....


Oh god! Cakes all sound nasty now!

Lemon drizzle anyone? :Hilarious


----------



## Guest (Jul 29, 2016)

Pappychi said:


> I've recently discovered the joys of Mcdonalds Fries dipped in a McFlurry.


Oh god you are disturbed. I've seen that done, it's disgusting. I thought it was a southern US thing like fried snickers bars. You'll be telling me you put ranch dressing on your pizza next! :Vomit


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Best thread turn in a while :Finger
> 
> What do you want to bet though in the morning someone comes on, reads the first few pages, posts a reply to the original topic, only to realize the thread has completely changed course
> I always love those.
> ...


Me too :Hilarious

I love threads like that, then it just resparks everything and this time tomorrow night we are back on sandwiches and dingle dangly bits


----------



## Guest (Jul 29, 2016)

Lauren5159 said:


> Oh god! Cakes all sound nasty now!
> 
> Lemon drizzle anyone? :Hilarious


Yeah, I literally LOL'd. 
13 year old boy wants to know what's so funny. 
Explain that one!!!


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Oh god you are disturbed. I've seen that done, it's disgusting. I thought it was a southern US thing like fried snickers bars. You'll be telling me you put ranch dressing on your pizza next! :Vomit


Nope sorry to disappoint! Although, I've made it my mission of late to try chicken and waffles, I need to know what the obsession with that is?


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Lauren5159 said:


> Oh god! Cakes all sound nasty now!
> 
> Lemon drizzle anyone? :Hilarious


If someone destroys Chocolate Fudge cake for me I won't be happy :Grumpy


----------



## Guest (Jul 29, 2016)

Pappychi said:


> Nope sorry to disappoint! Although, I've made it my mission of late to try chicken and waffles, I need to know what the obsession with that is?


Never heard of chicken and waffles...
And can't think of an inappropriate innuendo to go with them.

*feels disappointed*


----------



## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Pappychi said:


> If someone destroys Chocolate Fudge cake for me I won't be happy :Grumpy


No one touch or even think about ruining cheesecake for me!!!


----------



## Guest (Jul 29, 2016)

Pappychi said:


> If someone destroys Chocolate Fudge cake for me I won't be happy :Grumpy


Great. 
Now I want chocolate. 
And there's no chocolate in the house. 
Which means I have to either suffer or put on a bra and go to the store.


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Never heard of chicken and waffles...
> And can't think of an inappropriate innuendo to go with them.
> 
> *feels disappointed*


I can but it makes me feel ill just thinking about it.

*has flashbacks to highschool*

:Vomit


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Well I guess there are some benefits to the fact it's nearly midnight and my tiny humans is practicing his dance moves at the living room window, I get to read threads like this before they disappear into the ether.

I had pigeons nesting on my balcony where I used to live, horrible creatures, made a hell of a noise and an even worse mess.


----------



## Guest (Jul 29, 2016)

Lauren5159 said:


> No one touch or even think about ruining cheesecake for me!!!


That one is easily ruinable. 
Already happened in my head.

Chocolate is still good though. No worries there


----------



## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Great.
> Now I want chocolate.
> And there's no chocolate in the house.
> Which means I have to either suffer or put on a bra and go to the store.


You have no chocolate in your house?

Like... none?

Not even a Cadbury finger? Hah! Cadbury finger!!! Ruined! :Banghead


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Great.
> Now I want chocolate.
> And there's no chocolate in the house.
> Which means I have to either suffer or put on a bra and go to the store.


I went to the shop earlier with my pjs on and no bra on!

#noregrets.


----------



## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Pappychi said:


> I went to the shop earlier with my pjs on and no bra on!
> 
> #noregrets.


I walked the dog bra-less earlier. It was liberating! 
Disclaimer - I had a hoodie on! I'm not an animal!


----------



## Guest (Jul 29, 2016)

Sarah1983 said:


> Well I guess there are some benefits to the fact it's nearly midnight and my tiny humans is practicing his dance moves at the living room window, I get to read threads like this before they disappear into the ether.
> 
> I had pigeons nesting on my balcony where I used to live, horrible creatures, made a hell of a noise and an even worse mess.


Only 6:45 here. Still have time to go to the store and get chocolate something...

Is Jack having fun?


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Lauren5159 said:


> I walked the dog bra-less earlier. It was liberating!
> Disclaimer - I had a hoodie on! I'm not an animal!


Hakuna your tatas I say 

This thread is like Pet Forums after dark :Lurking:Blackalien


----------



## Guest (Jul 29, 2016)

Pappychi said:


> I went to the shop earlier with my pjs on and no bra on!
> 
> #noregrets.





Lauren5159 said:


> I walked the dog bra-less earlier. It was liberating!
> Disclaimer - I had a hoodie on! I'm not an animal!


Somebody is writing a thread about you somewhere, indecent humans going to the store in PJ's and no bra. 
It's 1000 degrees out still, no way am I putting on a hoodie. If it were winter I'd be fine, but in t-shirt weather bra is best....


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Somebody is writing a thread about you somewhere, indecent humans going to the store in PJ's and no bra.
> It's 1000 degrees out still, no way am I putting on a hoodie. If it were winter I'd be fine, but in t-shirt weather bra is best....


With my RBF I have to do something to entice the Men Folk short of kidnapping one :Lurking

My T-Shirt said 'No Boyfriend... No problems' as well :Hilarious


----------



## Guest (Jul 29, 2016)

Pappychi said:


> With my RBF I have to do something to entice the Men Folk short of kidnapping one :Lurking
> 
> My T-Shirt said 'No Boyfriend... No problems' as well :Hilarious


You're trying to entice a boyfriend by waving your braless boobs around in a t-shirt that says 'no boyfriend no problems'?
Do you not see the potential problems with this approach?!
No wonder you're only finding the ones who have baby pigeons in their pants!
#timeforanewapproach!


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

ouesi said:


> You're trying to entice a boyfriend by waving your braless boobs around in a t-shirt that says 'no boyfriend no problems'?
> Do you not see the potential problems with this approach?!
> No wonder you're only finding the ones who have baby pigeons in their pants!
> #timeforanewapproach!


:Smug

Any suggests on the new approach? Don't spend so much time on Pet Forums might be a good way to start :Hilarious


----------



## Guest (Jul 29, 2016)

Pappychi said:


> :Smug
> 
> Any suggests on the new approach? Don't spend so much time on Pet Forums might be a good way to start :Hilarious


No idea, my guy is a sandal-wearing vegetarian which is apparently not cool.


----------



## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Pappychi said:


> :Smug
> 
> Any suggests on the new approach? Don't spend so much time on Pet Forums might be a good way to start :Hilarious


The PF Single Pringle Club! I'll join with you...

Jeez, it's always food with me!


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Only 6:45 here. Still have time to go to the store and get chocolate something...
> 
> Is Jack having fun?


He is. I however am exhausted, been a rough couple of nights. And of course the hubby sleeps through it all!

As for bras, I do not go braless these days, it's there for added protection from grabby little hands and it's amazing just how much protection that thin layer offers lol.


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Lauren5159 said:


> The PF Single Pringle Club! I'll join with you...
> 
> Jeez, it's always food with me!


Saaaaame.

We should start a club in General Chat for all us Single Pringles  Come to think of it, I have Pringles in the cupboard!

:Brb


----------



## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Pappychi said:


> Saaaaame.
> 
> We should start a club in General Chat for all us Single Pringles  Come to think of it, I have Pringles in the cupboard!
> 
> :Brb


I bloody love Pringles!

It's midnight but there's a 24 hour Tesco literally five minutes away... They must see people in their PJs all the time, right?


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Lauren5159 said:


> I bloody love Pringles!
> 
> It's midnight but there's a 24 hour Tesco literally five minutes away... They must see people in their PJs all the time, right?












(Well we all know goats were gonna end up here eventually? ).

Do it! I wish there was a delivery service for emergency midnight snacks, all important question, what flavour of Pringle? :Nailbiting


----------



## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Pappychi said:


> View attachment 278951
> 
> 
> (Well we all know goats were gonna end up here eventually? ).
> ...


I like all Pringles! Sour cream and chive are awesome! Or the red ones... Or salt and vinegar. Yeah, those three!

I can't believe you brought goats in to this! Get comfy, we'll be here all night now!


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Lauren5159 said:


> I like all Pringles! Sour cream and chive are awesome! Or the red ones... Or salt and vinegar. Yeah, those three!
> 
> I can't believe you brought goats in to this! Get comfy, we'll be here all night now!


Ah I feel I have found my spirit animal. Sour cream and chive are the best ones :Hungry

Quite like Chilli Doritos with some melted cheese on as well, serve with salsa dip for extra noms.

I think everyone else has gone to bed :Hilarious Ouesi may have wondered off braless to the local shop in a desperate search of chocolate :Hilarious


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Best thread turn in a while :Finger
> 
> What do you want to bet though in the morning someone comes on, reads the first few pages, posts a reply to the original topic, only to realize the thread has completely changed course
> I always love those.
> ...


Gonads and neutering is kinda relevant though 



Lauren5159 said:


> No one touch or even think about ruining cheesecake for me!!!


I so easily could but as its you I won't be mean :Joyful


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
Katalyst,
I apologize for getting the facts wrong - but don't U think U could have made Ur 1st post & even Ur 2nd comment much-more clear to the reader than they are? In post #1, U DON't mention that U had an intact-M dog *before *U looked for an adoptable 2nd dog. Naturally enough, i thought "he" in all instances was the overseas-adoptee, as see below.
.
QUOTE, Katalyst:

We recently adopted a Cyprus rescue. 
... because I take my dog to my place of full time work & he's kenneled for a (few) hours... 
*he is still entire... * UK rescues pretty much laughed me out of the door.

/QUOTE
.
The way U wrote this, it sounds as if U went to UK rescues, said he'd be with U at work & crated briefly, & that U wanted to adopt an intact dog - & they laughed at the very idea, & sent U away unsatisfied. It sounds as tho the Cyprus rescue was OK with that - IOW, they apparently placed an intact M dog with U. Naturally, this instantly taints the image of the Cyprus rescue, sending an intact dog out of the country, entirely out of their reach & not under their supervision, to a remote adopter.
.
When U later said Steel, the adoptee, had a problem with Logan, an intact-M, obviously *both* were intact - since from the 1st post, it seemed the adoptee was intact. I'm glad U wrote to clarify that Steel was indeed desexed by the rescue - that was reassuring. (I could stop throwing darts at the board on my wall, with the "Cyprus rescue" notepaper centered on the board.)

Since I had the overall impression that U'd lightheartedly adopted an intact-M while already owning an intact-M, despite apparently being told that's not a good idea [those snooty UK rescues who laughed U out the door], it *did* seem U had a serious case of unicorn dreams with fairy-dust glittering on every surface - including the dogs.
I'm happy to learn U've got both feet on the ground - let's start over, U've got one dog, an intact M named Logan, right?...
.
.
.
GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT:
For all those who protested, _*"I kept 2 or more intact Ms in the same house!...",* _I didn't say it's impossible.
I said FOR PET-OWNERS, particularly APOs - those Average Pet-Owners who still rub a pup's nose in her or his mess 'to teach 'em better', & who scold a puppy for recalling too slowly, then wonder why the pup comes in even-slower, the next time --- keeping multiple intact-Ms is more likely to create grief than make for a happy home life.
We all know APOs who are well-intentioned but not well-informed. They rarely teach their dogs to do anything more than sit for a treat, & get offa the sofa when shouted at. It's not a crime to be an APO - but when Ur reach exceeds Ur grasp, bad things can happen.
If U are an above-average pet owner, U can not only put a fetch on a Lab, U can probly teach a pitbull to herd sheep. U know this already - so don't get all huffy about being lumped in with the APOs, since i'm not the one who put U in that category. YOU did. If U're a dog-pro [groomer, dog-walker, show handler, breeder, trainer, vet asst, compete in dog sports...], U're either not an APO, or U won't remain one for long.
If U *are* an APO, don't get insulted - we all were, to begin. U have to start somewhere. Dig in, & keep learning. Get hairy. Welcome to the club. 
.
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Ouesi:
...
AFAIK the UK does not have a problem with free roaming, free breeding populations of feral dogs....

/QUOTE

QUOTE, PappyChi:

... in the Midlands we do not have any free-roaming packs of feral dogs ...

/QUOTE
.
.
We weren't "just" discussing pet dogs. Overseas adoptions -from- popns of free-roaming, free-breeding dogs [Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, etc] was part of this thread, too, & Crumlin's original Q asked about reducing pet-overpopulation. Reducing pet-overpopn in the source countries includes the street dogs. 
.
.


----------



## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

I read this thread from end to start, and from start to end....








Also, I think I'm going to writ3 all future p0$tS like this, [email protected] it's ^eally easy on the eye and ea£y to under$t^nd


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Gemmaa said:


> I read this thread from end to start, and from start to end....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LMFAO!

If this is a dig at who I think it's a dig at, Beware. This member can make an awful lot of trouble for you when the mood takes them:Facepalm


----------



## Aahlly (Sep 12, 2014)

Huh, what a thread.

I once found a baby pigeon, I'm assuming had falling from it's nest, just sitting in the middle of the horse barn where I used to work. It felt horrible to just leave it there so I took it in and kept it in a cardboard box with a heat lamp over the top and hand fed it cat food. It was the ugliest and also the cutest thing ever. I got super attached to the little gremlin and he/she was doing pretty well. THEN I was going to be away all weekend at a horse show and left the pigeon with a friend who I thought was responsible. When I got back apparently baby had escaped through the cat flap? Who knows if that was the truth but I was devastated 

I'm super confused by this thread. The initial debate was really interesting but I'm not completely sure what @leashedForLife is getting at. Are you saying all free roaming dogs (obviously this is not applying to the UK now where packs of feral dogs are not a big problem as far as I'm aware) should be neutered as puppies? But then you go on to say that the dogs you are referring to (who should be neutered as young as possible) have no owners, so who are you suggesting should be doing the neutering? I'm just not getting what point you are trying to make and how this applies to the original query about foreign and UK rescue?


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Pappychi said:


> I'm not a Myth.


If you're not a myth then, by logical deduction, you're either a Mythith or a Mizz.

But why be thexith about being a rethponthible dog owner becauthe thumb dog ownerth can be mithterth too


----------



## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

So...L4L, you misinterpret a post, and rather than apologise profusely to @Katalyst for making pretty mean accusations, you blame them for the way they wrote it? Nobody else had any doubt about what was written, but Katalyst is at fault for you not reading it correctly? Uh uh, not on!

And stop generalising to try and make your points stick.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Zaros said:


> LMFAO!
> 
> If this is a dig at who I think it's a dig at, Beware. This member can make an awful lot of trouble for you when the mood takes them:Facepalm


Real life trouble?


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> Real life trouble?


Yeah. I' m kinda incapacitated at the moment.:Facepalm


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## Aahlly (Sep 12, 2014)

Nonnie said:


> Real life trouble?


Yeah. They're coming for ya.


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Zaros said:


> Yeah. I' m kinda incapacitated at the moment.:Facepalm


I was going to say, I hope you didn't laugh too hard earlier might be a killer on the ribs!

How you feeling today? 



Nonnie said:


> Real life trouble?


Pet Forum Mafia :Nailbiting


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Aahlly said:


> Yeah. They're coming for ya.


Awesome, i could do with some excitement. Its all rather vanilla otherwise.

I hope it involves a kilt wearing tortoise, a trip to Mexico and the Yakuza.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Pappychi said:


> I was going to say, I hope you didn't laugh too hard earlier might be a killer on the ribs!
> 
> How you feeling today? ￼


Life does what it does. It hurts some and it often leaves us with bruises and scars. But like the chameleon we just grow another skin to camouflage and hide our wounds.

And then, all of a sudden Oscar, reminds me they're still there:Facepalm

Thanks for asking chuck


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Kimmikins said:


> So...L4L, you misinterpret a post, and rather than apologise profusely to @Katalyst for making pretty mean accusations, you blame them for the way they wrote it? Nobody else had any doubt about what was written, but Katalyst is at fault for you not reading it correctly? Uh uh, not on!
> 
> And stop generalising to try and make your points stick.


I was always taught any apology that's followed by a but....is no apology at all!

Which is exactly what L4L did!

The person I feel sorry for here is Kat, and I still do not get the un-neutered neutered problem for Logan. Many here have un neutered dogs living together happily no problems at all.

All ready had a run in with L4L telling me Eevee had bad legs problems with her back legs from a photo. It was just a photo which was her actually moving, but did look I guess static. But hey, derailed a nice photo thread making me look an irresponsible owner. For heavens sake I own toy breeds and small breeds, and am well aware about problems but I was singled out in a thread and made me look so small. The audacity of some people is unreal.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Quote
But then you go on to say that the dogs you are referring to (who should be neutered as young as possible) have no owners, so who are you suggesting should be doing the neutering? I'm just not getting what point you are trying to make and how this applies to the original query about foreign and UK rescue?
Unquote

I would imagine that the rescues/welfare groups who try to deal with the feral animals in their area, but who can't rehome them all, would catch/neuter/release to prevent continual breeding?

They often have local vets who will do cheap or free spaying clinics for this purpose.

Personally, as the life of a feral dog is often so awful because of the humans around them, if they are being captured and given a GA for neutering I think they would be better off pts, rather than being released back onto the street to continue living a life of misery and abuse.

Far better to reduce and eventually eradicate the problem IMO. 

Concentrate then on educating owners and catching and rehoming the odd dog that finds itself abandoned.

If the problem is reduced enough the dogs could be rehomed in their home country without exporting them somewhere else.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Just to make everyone happy...well me really....I have just remembered I have about ten share bags of peanut M&M's and about six share bags of Galaxy Minstrels upstairs in my bedroom although strangely all I want now are Texas Barbeque Pringles.. thanks Pappychi......and just to keep the thread on track if I ever get a boy dog I will consider getting him neutered at the appropriate age.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2016)

Yeah... this thread was more fun last night.
And I never did get any chocolate.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2016)

Firedog said:


> and just to keep the thread on track


Why would you want to do that?!


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Yeah... this thread was more fun last night.
> And I never did get any chocolate.


I thought you'd wondered off into the wilderness, braless in a desperate attempt to find some chocolate based goodness.

*is disappointed*


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2016)

Pappychi said:


> I thought you'd wondered off into the wilderness, braless in a desperate attempt to find some chocolate based goodness.
> 
> *is disappointed*


Well, I did remain bra-less, and I did go out with the dogs in the wilderness, but didn't brave any urban wilderness in search of chocolate


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

lullabydream said:


> I was always taught any apology that's followed by a but....is no apology at all!


*But* - *B*ehold the *U*nderlying *T*ruth

Basically when someone puts "But" in a sentence it generally wipes out what was said before it!


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Look Edward! Little brown fish!


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

My Nanna used to say -

Everything before but is bullsh*t.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Firedog said:


> Just to make everyone happy...well me really....I have just remembered I have about ten share bags of peanut M&M's and about six share bags of Galaxy Minstrels upstairs in my bedroom although strangely all I want now are Texas Barbeque Pringles.. thanks Pappychi......and just to keep the thread on track if I ever get a boy dog I will consider getting him neutered at the appropriate age.


I wish you hadn't mentioned chocolate, it's all I can think about now especially the peant ones.
The only chocolate in the house is some of my late FIL's diabetic stuff and we can't decide whether it's worth eating or not. Some of the other diabetic stuff we tried were pretty revolting.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2016)

A "yeahbut" apology - aka 'fauxpology' 

I'm pretty sure @Katalyst is just fine though


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

applecrumlin said:


> I'm just curious if anyone has statistics on the number of dogs euthanised each year purely for being "unwanted"? Obviously difficult to get accurate numbers, but I've noticed a growing trend for importing strays, which makes me wonder if pet overpopulation is actually beginning to come under control?


Havent read the whole thread so these figures may have already been posted but usually Dogs trust is a good source of info regarding this sort of thing in their annual reports, One of which is a stray dog report.

*The Stray Dog Survey reveals 47,596 dogs were heartlessly left behind in council pounds, where they remained unclaimed by their owners*

*In total 102,363 stray and abandoned dogs were handled by Local Authorities between 2014 - 2015 *

*Dogs Trust never puts a healthy dog down, but 5,142 stray dogs were put to sleep by UK Local Authorities between 2014 and 2015, that's one dog every two hours.*

Over 47,000owners have abandoned their dogs in the past twelve months according to the annual Stray Dog Survey by Dogs Trust, the UK's largest dog welfare charity.

Dogs Trust questions all local authorities across the UK as part of the annual Stray Dog Survey and 2015 findings reveal that 47,596dogs were left behind in council pounds, where they remained unclaimed by their owners. Abandoning a dog puts them at risk of being put down by local authorities after seven days, as they struggle to care for the vast numbers of strays that are picked up on the streets of the UK every day. While Dogs Trust never puts a healthy dog down, 5,142 stray dogs were destroyed by reluctant local authorities in the last year - equating to 14 dogs a day or, one dog every two hours.

In total, 102,363 stray and abandoned dogs have been handled by local authorities between 2014 and 2015, with under half being claimed by their owners. The overall figure represents a slight drop on the previous year's figures (110,675) but still equates to 280 strays being found across the UK each day. Meanwhile, at Dogs Trust, 43,771 calls have been taken from people trying to give up their dogs in the last 12 months - that's 3,647 calls a month, 841 a week and 120 a day.

Full article and link to 2015 survey info on link, which is the last one done .

https://www.dogstrust.org.uk/news-e...-heartlessly-abandoned-their-dogs-in-one-year


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Lurcherlad

I would imagine that the rescues/ welfare groups who try to deal with the feral animals in their area, but who can't rehome them all, would TNR to prevent continual breeding?
They often have local vets who will do cheap or free spaying clinics for this purpose.

/QUOTE
.
Precisely! -  Have a lolly, LurcherLad.
.
I've posted about this previously, in other threads - the Blue Cross in India have done an incredible job of reducing feral-dog numbers AND the threat of rabies to humans - approx 2K ppl die each year in India of rabies, & the majority of exposures are via dog-bites.

QUOTE, Lurcherlad
Personally, as the life of a feral dog is often so awful because of the humans around them, if they're being captured and given a GA for neutering I think they'd be better off PTS, vs released back onto the street to continue living a life of misery and abuse.
Far better to reduce and eventually eradicate the problem IMO.

/QUOTE
.
Two problems with that:
- in India, street-dogs actually serve a purpose, they eat garbage & offal, AND they catch & kill rats.
Many Indians have no access to toilets, & even where they do, public toilets are poorly maintained & often filthy; so rather than enter a dirty, stinking cubicle, lots of Indians prefer a nice clean defecation in the street or fields. Dogs eat human-stool. This reduces the bacteria load in streams & ag fields, & helps limit or prevent disease outbreaks.
Rats eat human foodstores, & are another vector for rabies. The dogs are vaxed against rabies when they're desexed, but obviously U can't vaccinate rats - putting out rabies-vaccine oral bait isn't very effective on rats, they avoid baits, fearing poison.
Whether they're popular or not, India needs street-dogs - not in hordes, no, but yes, they're needed.
.
- 2nd, a company contracted by the Indian govt tried & signally failed to "eradicate" street-dogs across India for over a century. Their weapons of choice included poison, shooting, trapping, & wire-lassos to snare dogs one by one, then truck them to a central location & kill them, often with clubs.
Not only were the methods used extremely cruel, they frequently captured & killed dogs that the Blue Cross had desexed & vaxed, because they were easier to approach & catch - despite the obvious EAR-TIPPING that marked dogs who were neutered & vaxed. Killing the desexed, vaccinated dogs boosted their body-count, & they didn't care that it removed the rabies-buffer for street-dogs & humans alike.
.
.
QUOTE, Lurcherlad

Concentrate then on educating owners and catching and rehoming the odd dog that finds itself abandoned.
If the problem is reduced enough, the dogs could be rehomed in their home country, without exporting them somewhere else.

/QUOTE
.
.
Street-dogs won't be so needed, once India has trash-removal services in cities & villages, & improves the availability AND cleanliness of public toilets. Most of India is still villages, not even towns, & organizing municipal services to stop feeding the rats & throwing trash in the street is going to take time.
Meanwhile, dogs do the clean-up for nothing, which is a very-much needed public service.
If the day ever comes when India values dogs as family pets & keeps them at home, it will be a huge step forward in animal welfare. For now, the despised street-dogs are the canine untouchables, cleaning up garbage & feces.
.
.
.


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

L4L

I get what you say 

But, I would prefer there were no street dogs at all rather than they suffer to keep the area rat free for the humans.

With regard to eradicating the feral population, again it should be done by the people who care about the dogs foremost. Not by locals who clearly have no compassion towards the dogs. That's why I say once caught, pts humanely - don't release.

I know there isn't a magic wand, but anying to reduce the suffering for innocent creatures is worth trying. 

Humans who would rather crap in the street than improve their way of living can go whistle as far as I'm concerned!


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
Ya know, U guys are absolutely right. *hangs head in shame*
.
I deliberately, maliciously twisted everything Katalyst wrote, & then attacked her - someone i'd never met! - for no reason, 'cuz i totally do that every day on PF-uk. I'm a sick barsteward, & i live to assault the innocent.
.
Take a look at my past posts - nothing but abuse, invective, & vitriol. I should be shot by a firing squad; no, i don't need a blindfold, thanks. No, i don't want a cigarette. Just give me a bag of Brookside Pomegranate chocolates...









Thanks. *rips open bag*
.
.
Before they fire, an FDA tidbit:
'Pringles potato-chips' are the US item with the highest permissible filth level, due to their multi-stage processing, as rodent hair, dirt, AC condensate, & other environmental contaminants can be introduced at any one step in processing. 
I know this 'cuz i'm a foodie, & my eejit BIL is addicted to them [natch, as he's diabetic, & he'd never be addicted to something that wasn't seriously bad for him - like Scotch, his other fave.]
Enjoy!


----------



## Guest (Jul 30, 2016)

leashedForLife said:


> Ya know, U guys are absolutely right. *hangs head in shame*
> .
> I deliberately, maliciously twisted everything Katalyst wrote, & then attacked her - someone i'd never met! - for no reason, 'cuz i totally do that every day on PF-uk. I'm a sick barsteward, & i live to assault the innocent.
> .
> Take a look at my past posts - nothing but abuse, invective, & vitriol. I should be shot by a firing squad; no, i don't need a blindfold, thanks. No, i don't want a cigarette. Just give me a bag of Brookside Pomegranate chocolates...


A simple, genuine apology would probably have sufficed. 
Or simply not saying anything at all.

This feels mean spirited and dismissive. You chided members for not reading your posts properly, then you go and do the same thing to a member, raking her over the coals in the process, then when you're corrected you blame the member for your mistake (no one else found her post confusing), and then have a hissy fit about it. 
#notcool enguin

And I still contend that this thread was much more fun when we were comparing baby pigeons to male genitalia. Now that is a worthy conversation. This is not.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> And I still contend that this thread was much more fun when we were comparing baby pigeons to male genitalia. Now that is a worthy conversation. This is not.


My OH says it looks more like a vulva than male genitalia  I don't know whether to be offended or not :Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
outing the FDA permitted-filth level in Pringles was probably too cruel. 
.


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Should have make this thread about the geoduck.


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> My OH says it looks more like a vulva than male genitalia  I don't know whether to be offended or not :Hilarious:Hilarious


Maybe some Specsavers vouchers for your hubby too?


----------



## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> My OH says it looks more like a vulva than male genitalia  I don't know whether to be offended or not :Hilarious:Hilarious


**childishly giggling coz RPH said the "v" word :Hilarious
I'm also ok eating Pringles that have a bit of rat fluff on them...


----------



## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Nonnie said:


> Maybe some Specsavers vouchers for your hubby too?


Eww.. why does it have a foreskin??


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Nettles said:


> Eww.. why does it have a foreskin??


No idea, i was so excited that i found a pic of a baby bird that looks like a penis, that i forgot to read the article.

Identity crisis?


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Nonnie said:


> No idea, i was so excited that i found a pic of a baby bird that looks like a penis, that i forgot to read the article.
> 
> Identity crisis?


Turtleneck sweater to keep it warm?


----------



## Guest (Jul 30, 2016)

Nonnie said:


> i was so excited that i found a pic of a baby bird that looks like a penis,


Nothing like a good feeling of accomplishment


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Nonnie said:


> Maybe some Specsavers vouchers for your hubby too?


That's like the meat AND the veg, well one of them at least .

:Nailbiting


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> Maybe some Specsavers vouchers for your hubby too?


I take it the one on the left is a cock.....


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> My OH says it looks more like a vulva than male genitalia  I don't know whether to be offended or not :Hilarious:Hilarious


Can anyone else read the yellow. It is just an eye hurting yellow strip with no words to my eyes.


----------



## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Blitz said:


> Can anyone else read the yellow. It is just an eye hurting yellow strip with no words to my eyes.


I tend to find that with the purple.


----------



## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

What happened to this thread? 

Where's the chocolate, cakes and dusty Pringles?! 

I still love Pringles.


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Lauren5159 said:


> What happened to this thread?
> 
> Where's the chocolate, cakes and dusty Pringles?!
> 
> I still love Pringles.


It has penises?

Not sold?

I'll crawl back under my stone then:Sorry


----------



## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

simplysardonic said:


> It has penises?
> 
> Not sold?
> 
> I'll crawl back under my stone then:Sorry


Oh yeah! Missed that!

I am extremely impressed this thread still isn't 100% back on topic


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Lauren5159 said:


> Oh yeah! Missed that!
> 
> I am extremely impressed this thread still isn't 100% back on topic


Welllllll......

With a little stretch of the imagination, we can see how penises are a major contributor to over population- dogs or otherwise.

I'd go as far as saying that 50% of overpopulation is thanks to penises.


----------



## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Blitz said:


> Can anyone else read the yellow. It is just an eye hurting yellow strip with no words to my eyes.


Little tip - If you find the colour of words to be hard to read, often if you highlight the words as if your going to copy and paste them, then you can read them clearer as it removes the colour.

That said, I find it annoying and if people write large blocks of text in.. for example purple, coupled with weird formatting, then I tend to scroll straight past there posts


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Blitz said:


> Can anyone else read the yellow. It is just an eye hurting yellow strip with no words to my eyes.


Sorry I did it because it was a bit rude and didn't want to offend people thinking only those following the off topic thread the conversation had taken would bother to try and read it.


----------



## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

If there wasn't demand there wouldn't be supply. Unfortunately a lot of people don't think it through properly before getting a pet whether it be a dog, cat, rabbit etc., and they can simply shirk their responsibility when they get bored, or realise the time and effort involved in looking after an animal and have the pet rehomed or PTS.

The stringent criteria of Rehoming Centres make it impossible for a lot of people to adopt an animal. There is being careful and there is being bloody ridiculous.

I was happy to adopt a rabbit but the rescue we looked at you had to have an appointment, okay I thought I would ring for an appointment - no you had to fill in an adoption form (I hadn't even seen a rabbit at this stage). If your application was successful you would be offered an appointment, following a successful interview and home visit if they had a suitable rabbit available at that time an adoption would be considered.

What did I do - I went to my local pet shop approximately three bus stops away got a lovely little bunny £19.00. Job done, I know my pets are for life, none of mine have ended up being rehomed.

There are genuine reasons for rehoming, but so many animals are abandoned because owners haven't done their homework nor properly thought it through ie work commitments, vet bills, holidays, nights out, other residential pets and integrating all safely and responsibility instead we see threads "Help" got a new pet last week and doesn't get on with my resident pet. "really, what a barsteward".


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

we have feral dogs here, mostly on a Saturday night after my s on has chucked [sorry escorted, he's a 'doorman' and chucked is so bouncer]them out of the nightclub. would definitely improve the IQ of this town and drop the interbreeding rate, if they had all been neutered at birth

As for cheesecake pringles waffles and chocolate being ruined, when one lives with three early twentys males, they have all been ruined, colours and drinking implements also

baby pigeons, they are called squabs because that is the noise your dogs make when they yack the foul smelling squishy things up


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Every time I get a notification from this thread I end up hungry :Hungry

So I went on a bra less trek into the urban wilderness and have come back with my prize.









Are we still on penises?


----------



## Guest (Jul 31, 2016)

Pappychi said:


> Every time I get a notification from this thread I end up hungry :Hungry
> 
> So I went on a bra less trek into the urban wilderness and have come back with my prize.
> View attachment 279092
> ...


Hrm... I think I'd rather some Ben & Jerry's than penises


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Hrm... I think I'd rather some Ben & Jerry's than penises


I thought this said I'd rather have Ben & Jerry's penises :Wtf

I have some of that in the fridge :Smug gotta eat it in secret though, Bear loooooves ice cream :Lurking


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2016)

Pappychi said:


> I thought this said I'd rather have Ben & Jerry's penises :Wtf


Are they available? I didn't think they were?


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Are they available? I didn't think they were?


:Hilarious You can get some pretty interesting baking/freezing tins so you can make your own ice cream willies 

At least that's what I do... :Muted


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

sskmick said:


> If there wasn't demand there wouldn't be supply. Unfortunately a lot of people don't think it through properly before getting a pet whether it be a dog, cat, rabbit etc., and they can simply shirk their responsibility when they get bored, or realise the time and effort involved in looking after an animal and have the pet rehomed or PTS.
> 
> The stringent criteria of Rehoming Centres make it impossible for a lot of people to adopt an animal. There is being careful and there is being bloody ridiculous.
> 
> ...


I suspect the long procedure to adopt is to put off people who act on impulse, rehome a pet and then realise they can't be bothered or afford the pet.

How could they know you would be totally committed?

Of course, the rescue can't stop people going and getting one elsewhere, but they can do their very best to protect the animals in their charge.

I don't think it would have put me off, as I would only ever be interested in a rescue animal.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Pappychi said:


> Every time I get a notification from this thread I end up hungry :Hungry
> View attachment 279092
> 
> 
> ...


.
.
Topped! :Smuggrin This is _luscious, _& can last me 2-weeks or a bit more...









... if i don't get stressed-out & have an emotional eating binge.  When something really upsetting happens, only *chocolate *can soothe my frazzled nerves.
Mmmm...








This is where ya go, to get the good stuff...








.
.


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

If that's dark chocolate than no :Stop

I HATE dark chocolate. It's yucky stuff :Vomit:Vomit


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> Brookside Pomegranate chocolates...
> 
> View attachment 278967


now available in Tesco in the worldfood aisle, american section


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Pappychi:

...
I HATE dark chocolate. It's yucky stuff :Vomit:Vomit

/QUOTE
.
Heavens! - that helpless, are we?... *sigh*
.








.
happy, now? - Yer welcome. 
.
For anyone who thinks 'white chocolate' actually contains cacao in any form, U're as delusional as the folks who think "yogurt-dipped raisins" are actually yogurt-coated.  Sad, innit? -- IMO, 'white chocolate' is an abomination & should be banned anywhere actual food is sold. It ought to be a black-market commodity, sold under the blessed cloak of darkness to pathetic creatures like my older sister, who is allergic to chocolate & perforce eats the white glop, which is apparently made of sweetened paraffin, or perhaps of leftover floor-wax & GMO beet-sugar.
Whatever it's made of, it's gross.
.
.
.


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## Eeyore (Aug 28, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> white chocolate' is an abomination
> .


I was thinking the same about your texts because you make them so difficult to read.


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Well I actually quite like white chocolate. It's my favourite in fact :Finger


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Sorry I did it because it was a bit rude and didn't want to offend people thinking only those following the off topic thread the conversation had taken would bother to try and read it.


Damn did I miss something.


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

lullabydream said:


> You see this is what I never understand with some rescues...
> 
> If you work full-time then you are more likely be able to meet veterinary needs of the animals, or consider insurance.


Whilst that is true Bristol University at Langford, one of the most respected Veterinary schools in the UK recently concluded studies which showed that most dogs actually don't like being left alone for long periods and suffer from some degree of separation anxiety. Rescues prefer to find homes where somebody is home for the dogs and are reluctant to rehome them with couples who work full time. Based upon the results of the Langford studies I am inclined to side with the rescues although I think they need to be a bit more flexible in cases where a couple both work but different hours since that is clearly a different matter.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Firedog said:


> Damn did I miss something.


Yes.. RPH said the "V" word :Hilarious


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

cbcdesign said:


> Whilst that is true Bristol University at Langford, one of the most respected Veterinary schools in the UK recently concluded studies which showed that most dogs actually don't like being left alone for long periods and suffer from some degree of separation anxiety. Rescues prefer to find homes where somebody is home for the dogs and are reluctant to rehome them with couples who work full time. Based upon the results of the Langford studies I am inclined to side with the rescues although I think they need to be a bit more flexible in cases where a couple both work but different hours since that is clearly a different matter.


You actually took my quote out of context..i was speaking in response to someone who and her partner had been declined for working fulltime...but their shift patterns meant that the dog would not be alone...

Hence why I picked up on the fulltime would also be beneficial for care of a dog with the financial commitments.


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## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

cbcdesign said:


> Whilst that is true Bristol University at Langford, one of the most respected Veterinary schools in the UK recently concluded studies which showed that most dogs actually don't like being left alone for long periods and suffer from some degree of separation anxiety. Rescues prefer to find homes where somebody is home for the dogs and are reluctant to rehome them with couples who work full time. Based upon the results of the Langford studies I am inclined to side with the rescues although I think they need to be a bit more flexible in cases where a couple both work but different hours since that is clearly a different matter.


I agree about dogs not being left alone for long periods. My issue is having a blanket "full time work = no" attitude. @lullabydream was responding to the fact that we were turned down by all the rescues we tried because we are classified as full time workers. Even though we work shifts. I can't even remember the last time the dogs were left for very long, even with us both working that day. But UK rescues turned us down even when we explained our shifts.


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Kimmikins said:


> I agree about dogs not being left alone for long periods. My issue is having a blanket "full time work = no" attitude. @lullabydream was responding to the fact that we were turned down by all the rescues we tried because we are classified as full time workers. Even though we work shifts. I can't even remember the last time the dogs were left for very long, even with us both working that day. But UK rescues turned us down even when we explained our shifts.


Yeah I agree that's just plain stupidity, an over zealous application of the rules with no logical basis at all.


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