# Dog training by example



## popapei (Jul 1, 2016)

I've been here before looking for recommendations on trainers and have since had two behaviourists come to us. Based on their recommendations we've also had a number of medical tests done, MRI, bloods, thyroid, etc. This has all cost well over two thousand pounds, luckily insurance covered some, but not all. However, even though we've followed the advice of all of them, including two previous trainers, contradictions aside, we're still in the same boat as before. Nothing has really changed.

The behaviourists each agree that we're doing the right things but our 4yr old Pei/Staff cross is not an easy case in the slightest, hence the medicals to rule that out.

So, with a new baby and time/resources dwindling, we really would like to get this sorted before it's too late, and thought we'd try a different approach.

We've had a number of problems, but this time we're just focusing on one thing at a time, as it gives us/the trainer more time. First thing we're trying to manage is his dog anxiety, he's a nightmare to walk when he sees other dogs.

Where we'd like to approach it differently is looking for a trainer that teaches by example, rather than a paragraph of text in a leaflet. Watching the trainer videos on you tube or TV, you see the trainers coming, sometimes with their own dogs, and going to the park, first showing the clients how to deal with the problem and then correcting them when they try. 

So far all the trainers we've had just have a consultation and then send us a write up, with generic steps to try. Usually involving lots of treats, the traditional way to train a dog. However our problem is he won't eat outside, even after years of trying, with all manner of treats and methods to get him to eat them. It's just not something he desires outside, but we haven't had anything except "keep trying". So we need another way.

Has anyone had a trainer in the Northwest, or further out that's willing to travel a little, that does this kind of teach by example training? 

The closest thing I saw was the episode of dogs behaving badly with the dog father teaching the great Dane, if anyone saw it, that is the same problems we have. I'm in half a mind to call him, but he is again very expensive. And we're hopefully looking for someone who can meet us at the park once a week or so until we solve this.

Thanks.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Not sure exactly what you've tried & it's almost impossible to describe online but have considered medication to help if he has anxiety?


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## popapei (Jul 1, 2016)

Our current behaviourist is a vet behaviourist and she gave us Sileo at first but that didn't help, we've just been trying an anti seizure medication to help with another problem (that may be mini seizures) but that's also supposed to reduce anxiety but it hasn't helped so far either.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

popapei said:


> Our current behaviourist is a vet behaviourist and she gave us Sileo at first but that didn't help, we've just been trying an anti seizure medication to help with another problem (that may be mini seizures) but that's also supposed to reduce anxiety but it hasn't helped so far either.


Is that for noise aversion? I didn't know if an SSRI like Prozac might be worth an option .... obviously I am not a vet & don't know your dog but is this something you have discussed?

4yrs is along time to feel like you are not making progress ....


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## popapei (Jul 1, 2016)

@Cleo38 we've also tried all sorts, but pretty much everything revolves around treats, or at least a toy, but because he's muzzled he can't play with anything. I've even tried the things recommended for dogs with muzzles like a boomer or stringy balls, but he loses interest fast because he can't grab them. We think he's quite toy motivated but even so the trainers/behaviourists we've had tell us to use treats because a. He can't grab toys and b. "Food is better because he gets fixated on the toy and not with you"


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## popapei (Jul 1, 2016)

Cleo38 said:


> Is that for noise aversion?
> 
> 4yrs is along time to feel like you are not making progress ....


Yeah, we were prescribed it off licence to see if it helps. We've not heard of using that, and it's not been discussed but I will mention it on our next appointment.

Tell me about it  been at the end of our tether so many times... It's the only thing I've put so many hours in to and not had results, I've made a successfully career in a whole new profession in about the same time.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

@smokeybear may be able to recommend someone....

What are her problems?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

popapei said:


> Yeah, we were prescribed it off licence to see if it helps. We've not heard of using that, and it's not been discussed but I will mention it on our next appointment.
> 
> Tell me about it  been at the end of our tether so many times... It's the only thing I've put so many hours in to and not had results, I've made a successfully career in a whole new profession in about the same time.


Honestly, I can understand how frustrating & disheartening this can be . My second dog was highly stressed & very anxious when she initially came to live with me. She hated everything; other dogs, people, didn't play, didn't want to eat ..... I was out of my depth.
Yet we did start to make small amounts of progress over time & whilst she will never be the sort of dog I could take to a village show she is so much more relaxed & we do lots of fun things together even go non courses where there are other dogs ( as long as we have space).

It did take it's toll on me not just financially (she costs me a small fortune!) but the amount of time & energy I put in to her .... I would never have done that with a person!!! It was draining & I was so stressed all the time which didn't help her.

Looking back I think I tried too hard to 'cure' her, in our case I think I should have just played with her & built a relationship with her rather than taking her out where she was too anxious.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

The Northwest is a big area but some "practical" dog trainers I can recommend are

Cath Phillips https://www.facebook.com/pages/On-Track-dog-training-school/120837237992623

Have you tried the nobble ball?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8...targid=kwd-34760295640&ref=pd_sl_89hfz56dsz_e

Some info here may help

https://muzzleupproject.com/

Be prepared however that some dogs cannot be "cured" and only managed

Good luck


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## popapei (Jul 1, 2016)

@labradrk there's a couple, but we've decided just to focus on one thing, and the most important thing for both us and him is to make walks enjoyable for everyone. I can deal with the pulling, it's manageable at times, but when he gets in the proximity of another dog, or hears one, then he just turns into a machine. Pulling strong, barking, whining, losing all sense I exist, up on hind legs, looking like a ravenous beast to everyone else.

At a distance it can be okay, and that can vary too. But all attempts to slowly make things okay haven't worked because he straight up won't eat treats no matter what it is, and toys are a struggle as mentioned. But I don't really exist outside either most of the time.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I agree with @smokeybear ... you may have to accept that he cannot be 'cured'.

Regarding your routine.do you take him out everyday, do you both encounter stress every day regarding his anxiety at other dogs? If so maybe you need to give yourselves a break for a bit.

Personally I would look at medication options available, look at how you can maybe just have fun with him in a 'safe' environment rather than taking him out where they might be other dogs. Are there any fields you could hire? There are plenty of people offering this option now.

Look at maybe getting him interested in games or actvities (scentwork, trick training, etc) to build on your relationship rather than constantly trying to assess/cure his behaviour


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## popapei (Jul 1, 2016)

Thanks @smokeybear , we're in Manchester/Cheshire but will have a look at her.

Yeah we tried those, and a few of the ones mentioned on muzzle up, and he's got two sizes of the Baskerville ultra but he can't seem to grab anything, being a shar Pei he has an odd shape mouth and really struggles. Eventually giving up and getting bored.

Without his muzzle though he loves his ball, he'll heel for it and stay at a distance, finding on command, etc. He's great on private fields but it's a 50min drive each way and £5 each time, so not something I can do every night. Another dog is a much stronger pull to him than any toy though, unless we're way far away.

Cheers


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## popapei (Jul 1, 2016)

I don't even need to cure him, I would just like to be able to walk past other dogs without, which happend recently, being told I should learn to control my dog 

He doesn't always see dogs, and I will often go 30 min out my way backtracking to avoid confrontations. However there are lots of dogs in this area, and it's a struggle.

I don't drive and the closest field we found that's a reasonable price is 50 min away.

I already won't take him out if he's too stressed, but he does like going out and it's a shame.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I still would not be able to walk past another dog with one of mine in a close proximity either. Where I live there are lots of lovely river walks but this also means that if there is someone walking towards us (not common luckily) she will be able to see them approaching for quite a while (I live in Norfolk so it's very flat!) & that worries her. Instead we will get off the path if we can or move to the side & do something to take her mind off the other dog. 

If it's constant stress for both of you then I wouldn't go out every day (doesn't have to be forever) but there are many things you can do with him at home without feeling guilty that he is missing out. If he is not experiencing stress every day then this will probably be beneficial to him long term as well.


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## popapei (Jul 1, 2016)

Our common route is in a woody area and there's a few paths we can move to when I see a dog is ahead, I've at times just walked straight into a load of bushes for five minutes while they pass, exiting with a few scratches and an oblivious dog 

I do play with him in the garden when we don't go out too, but you can see how much he loves sniffing in the woods and stuff, it'd be a shame he not get to do it


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

popapei said:


> Our common route is in a woody area and there's a few paths we can move to when I see a dog is ahead, I've at times just walked straight into a load of bushes for five minutes while they pass, exiting with a few scratches and an oblivious dog
> 
> I do play with him in the garden when we don't go out too, but you can see how much he loves sniffing in the woods and stuff, it'd be a shame he not get to do it


Most dogs love nose work so you can use this in a more structured way (indoors or out) & ensure you are also involved in this activity so are working as a team rather than him just doing his own thing.
I recently attended a seminar where tracking for dogs with behavioural issues was discussed but you could also apply the same for other types of nose work.
Have you looked at Talking Dogs Scentwork workshop? I've done quite a few & they are fab. If not driving would be a problem then look at buying the DVD & you can then start at home.
Once you both start becoming more competent you can really start to challenge your dog, the possibilities are endless. We've done searches in old barns, in streams, haystacks, my garage ......


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Jane Arden in Bury (Waggawuffins) is another who was highly recommended to me in the Manchester area. I'd also highly recommend Leslie McDevitts Control Unleashed, I found that to be of more use with Rupert than anything else I read.

As for wanting one who provides actual in person help rather than a paragraph of text in a leaflet...well imo that's what any good trainer/behaviourist should be doing. Have to admit, I had the same problem with Rupert and treats, he had zero interest in them at the best of times never mind out and about. And I too got the same "keep trying" and "they mustn't be high enough value" answers which was incredibly frustrating. It really felt like none of the trainers I saw had a clue what to do if they couldn't stuff a dog full of treats. Had much the same problem with a high dog population too so "keep him under threshold" was extremely difficult too, walking him in the middle of the night is what I resorted to. Anything else was a nightmare. Not really much help I know but sometimes knowing you're not the only one who's had the difficulties can help a little.

Hope you manage to get something sorted.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> Jane Arden in Bury (Waggawuffins) is another who was highly recommended to me in the Manchester area. I'd also highly recommend Leslie McDevitts Control Unleashed, I found that to be of more use with Rupert than anything else I read.
> 
> As for wanting one who provides actual in person help rather than a paragraph of text in a leaflet...well imo that's what any good trainer/behaviourist should be doing. Have to admit, I had the same problem with Rupert and treats, he had zero interest in them at the best of times never mind out and about. And I too got the same "keep trying" and "they mustn't be high enough value" answers which was incredibly frustrating. It really felt like none of the trainers I saw had a clue what to do if they couldn't stuff a dog full of treats. Had much the same problem with a high dog population too so "keep him under threshold" was extremely difficult too, walking him in the middle of the night is what I resorted to. Anything else was a nightmare. Not really much help I know but sometimes knowing you're not the only one who's had the difficulties can help a little.
> 
> Hope you manage to get something sorted.


We were discussing this at this yesterday at my training club .... I remember telling one behaviourist that it really didn't matter what I had in my hand Roxy was far too scared to eat. I get it that alot of dogs who aren't food motivated can be changed with the reduction of meals, etc but a dog that is so stressed just cannot eat .... I've been like that ,myself at times .... although very, very rarely!! 

OP - I think you need to give yourself a break for a while as it's probably getting to you as well.

A useful book is Feisty Fido: Help for the Leash-Reactive Dog 

Some really good advice & tips for managing real life situations


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Well done for not giving up . I've had problems with my two and I know it can be a nightmare as you can't control the environment.

There are a lot of books and info out there,
if you dog wont eat food , there is something called Behaviour adjustment therapy. 
http://www.training-your-dog-and-you.com/Behavior_Adjustment_Training.html


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## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

Before considering approaching the Dog Father bloke please read this thread first....

http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/dogs-behaving-badly-channel-4.443410/#post-1064799356


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I wouldn't use the Dog Father bloke or his methods either


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Awful man ! please don't let him any where near your dog .


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## PixieSpoodle (Mar 24, 2016)

I really like Steve Mann and his methods. He is a well respected trainer. Although he cover London and Hertfordshire (I think) he may be worth contacting as I'm sure he will have contacts all over the country who will use kind methods. It's worth a try.
http://www.stevemanndogtraining.com/index.php/consultations-training


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## popapei (Jul 1, 2016)

Cheers guys, I've contacted cath, will speak to her today.

The dog father guy is the only trainer I saw that did practical based training, and the great Dane he was seeing to on the TV show is basically my dog, just twice his size. He's quite expensive though so not something I'd be jumping at.

Think I might have to give in and finally buy that book as it's recommended so often hehe.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

popapei said:


> Cheers guys, I've contacted cath, will speak to her today.
> 
> The dog father guy is the only trainer I saw that did practical based training, and the great Dane he was seeing to on the TV show is basically my dog, just twice his size. He's quite expensive though so not something I'd be jumping at.
> 
> Think I might have to give in and finally buy that book as it's recommended so often hehe.


The dog father dude is as much use as a chocolate teapot when dog training is concerned. He also has zero qualifications and zero scientific knowledge. So please don't be fooled by his marketing spiel.

Steve Mann would be a good place to start


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

popapei said:


> Cheers guys, I've contacted cath, will speak to her today.
> 
> The dog father guy is the only trainer I saw that did practical based training, and the great Dane he was seeing to on the TV show is basically my dog, just twice his size. He's quite expensive though so not something I'd be jumping at.
> 
> Think I might have to give in and finally buy that book as it's recommended so often hehe.


Cath is one of the good guys, sure she'll do practical follow up work, she certainly used to.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
suggestion:
Since he's *visually *triggered, i'd introduce a Calming Cap - it looks like a horse's fly-mask & makes anything beyond his immediate surroundings fuzzy-focused, so he isn't sure what it might be. // They are lightweight & simple to put on, not expensive.
Be sure to habituate him to it at home, with rewards for 1st looking at it, then approaching it, sniffing or touching it, etc - finally have HIM shove his face into it as U hold it "open". // Marking each step as he achieves it [look, step toward, sniff, touch...] & raising the criterion for rewards will make it obvious to him what he's got to do to earn the reward, & what U are rewarding.
A clicker is the most-common marker used, if a box-clicker is too loud for him, muffle it: stuff a cotton-ball under the spring-metal tongue, wrap masking tape or a rubber band to cover part of the opening of the box, etc.
.
2 other excellent DIY manuals:
_'Click to Calm'_
_'Control Unleashed'_
_._
Click to Calm has a recipe format - read the book from page 1, & the front explains dog-behavior, B-Mod, etc. Or simply turn to Ur dog's "symptoms" [the observed behaviors] in the back section, & begin B-Mod. It's humane, knowledgeable, & safe - no stringing-up, no confrontation, no aversive tools.
.
Both C-To-C & Control-Unleashed have many, many videos on UTube showing ordinary folks using them successfully - YOSHI, a Corgi, is a good illustration of CU methods, & he was a highly-reactive dog.
Teaching a dog to 'calm on cue' or 'settle' can also be helpful - it's taught AWAY from all other dogs & stressful distractors, then used at an unreactive distance for a brief period [repeatedly], then slowly decrease distance till the dog can do it on cue, even when surprised.
Teaching him to turn his BACK to other dogs & to stare at U - for instance, make soft eye-to-eye contact with U while U smile & talk to him - is another helpful thing.
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Tip:
MUTE his tags by putting them into a neoprene baggie [QuietSpot] or wrapping them in masking tape or with a heavy-duty rubber band - a wide one, such as on broccoli or asparagus.  Then other dogs are not alerted at a long distance to his approach.
.
DAP a-k-a Adaptil in a pump-spray can also help, as can Bach's *Rescue Remedy* & a super-snug stretchy T-shirt or an Anxiety-Wrap.
see this *single post* for How / When / What / Intro / Use of calmatives -
http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/...-it-matters-so-much.88630/page-2#post-1457713
.
.
.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> suggestion:
> Since he's *visually *triggered, i'd introduce a Calming Cap - it looks like a horse's fly-mask & makes anything beyond his immediate surroundings fuzzy-focused, so he isn't sure what it might be. // They are lightweight & simple to put on, not expensive.
> Be sure to habituate him to it at home, with rewards for 1st looking at it, then approaching it, sniffing or touching it, etc - finally have HIM shove his face into it as U hold it "
> ...


Is there any studies to suggest these actually work in helping calm a dog .... I was at a seminar recently & these were discussed by behaviourists. Nearly every person raised concernes about these & the woman advocating them admitted that she couldn't provide any data to demonstrate these were effective ...it was in progress apparently.

Surely after all this time with this dog (&owner) suffering stressful situations medication should be considred as there scientific evidence that this can be beneficial in helping stressed/anxious dogs rather than anecdotal.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
Sure!  Readily available on Google *Scholar -*
.
*Canine aggression toward unfamiliar people and dogs*
LI Haug - 
Veterinary Clinics of North America: Small Animal …, 2008 - Elsevier
*...* _The *Calming* *Cap* (Premier Pet Products, Inc.) is an elastic, semi-transparent cloth "hood" that
covers the *...* and the Anxiety Wrap (Animals Plus, Huntington, Indiana) have proven *effective* in
calming *...* tasks should serve as another form of safety signal.) The *effectiveness* of these *...*_
Cited by 29 -- Related articles -- All 6 versions -- Cite -- Save

Dr Haug was also a fellow-member of the USA-apdt during the many years that i was a member; she was a helpful & active voice on the trainers' discussion board, thru-out my membership. Shout-out to Lore in the great state of Texas, LOL.  Dr Haug is a Board-certified vet-behaviorist, & was a faculty member @ Texas A & M until 2007.
.
For those who'd like to confirm her credentials,
*Texas Veterinary Behavior*
https://www.texasvetbehavior.com/
_*Texas Veterinary Behavior Services* (TVBS) is owned by veterinary behaviorist Dr. Lore Haug and located in Sugar Land, Texas. We treat behavior problems in ..._
.
or if U feel U need to contact her directly,
*Contact - Texas Veterinary Behavior*
https://www.texasvetbehavior.com/contact/
_Contact Dr. Lore Haug & *Texas Veterinary behavior* at PHONE: (281) 980-3737 
EMAIL: [email protected] 
ADDRESS: 2627 Cordes Drive Sugar Land, ...
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_________________________________________________
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.
Does anyone require a citation for research on the other calmatives?  I'll post it, *just in case* - 
so no-one needs to actually, ya know, _*ask *_me...  Versus imply that i recommend highly-questionable stuff that merely serves as a means to transfer money from the pockets of defenseless owners who are desperate for any help, & will grasp at straws, to the bank-accounts of unscrupulous "entrepreneurs" who concoct something in their basement laboratory over the weekend. :Hilarious
It's just too bad *i don't own stock in them*, isn't it? - Nor *get kickbacks* for purchases made on my referral, even... And i *don't get free* bottles of DAP, or free Calming-Caps, or *discounts* on any of the above, nor on the Anxiety-Wrap. Gee, i'm missing a lot of potential income - or savings! 
Back in a flash with the needed citations... hang on! 
.
.
.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> Sure!  Readily available on Google *Scholar -*
> .
> *Canine aggression toward unfamiliar people and dogs*
> ...


I can't read the full text ...... so have no idea of the study.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
FYI, *d*og *a*ppeasing *p*heromone was found, synthesized, & patented via research by Schering-Plough, & was introduced to the market as _*D.A.P / ComfortZone for Dogs*_ in the USA; 
the first dog i used it with was *Dakota*, the k9 train-wreck from a North Carolina hoarder who was surrendering 15 dogs to his local rural over-crowded under-funded animal-shelter. Dakota was one of 5 pups [siblings] taken from his pick-up truck bed by Julie, a fellow trainer, along with 5 other adult dogs. All 10 were transported to Virginia, to be helped & re-homed by P.A.C.C, *Partners Among Cats & Canines*, a local non-profit rescue that i helped with B-Mod cases.
.
Dakota went on to be adopted by a local couple; he arrived in late-Sept, just in time to be flooded out by hurricane Bonnie, & was adopted Thanksgiving weekend. // That would not have been possible, IMO, had it not been for both DAP pump-spray & the Anxiety-Wrap - both were enormously helpful to him. 
For his B-Mod story, use the excellent search-box on PF-uk & my user-name.
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.
D.A.P. via Google Scholar - *Search terms are highlighted in **boldface **below. *
.
*[PDF] *
*Comparison of the efficacy of a synthetic dog-appeasing pheromone with clomipramine for the treatment of separation-related disorders in dogs*
E Gaultier, L Bonnafous, L Bougrat… - Veterinary Record- …, 2005 - researchgate.net
_*...* TABLE 3: Global assessments of the *effectiveness* of the two treatments on the behaviour of *...* The inclusion criteria were strict, particularly the require- ment that the *dog* initially showed *...* In previous trials clomipramine had shown evidence of being *effective* for treating *canine* acral *...*_
Cited by 58 -- Related articles -- All 7 versions -- Cite -- Save More


[PDF] avma.org
*Systematic review of the use of pheromones for treatment of undesirable behavior in cats and dogs*
D Frank, G Beauchamp… - JAVMA …, 2010 - Am Vet Med Assoc
_*...* Puppies that were not sleeping with another *dog* and had a tendency to disturb at *...* 30 The *effectiveness* of randomization depends upon the generation of allocation sequences by truly *... *_
Cited by 41 -- Related articles -- All 9 versions Cite -- Save


[PDF] researchgate.net
*[PDF] Signs of travel-related problems in dogs and their response to treatment with dog-appeasing pheromone*
MG Estelles, DS Mills - Veterinary Record-English Edition, 2006 - researchgate.net
_*...* It therefore seems reasonable to suggest that DAP may be *effective* in helping to control signs related to *...* pp 204 - 215 BEAVER, BV (1999) *Canine* Behavior: a Guide for Veterinarians. *...* WB_
Saunders, pp 309, 310, 316 BOWER, J. & YOUNGS, D, (1994) The *Dog* Owner's Veterinary *...*
Cited by 26 -- Related articles . -- All 7 versions -- Cite -- Save


[PDF] researchgate.net
*[PDF] Efficacy of dog-appeasing pheromone (DAP) for ameliorating separation-related behavioral signs in hospitalized dogs*
YM Kim, JK Lee, AM Abd El-aty… - Canadian Veterinary …, 2010 - researchgate.net
_*...* There was no significant difference in *effectiveness* of DAP and clomipramine for ameliorating separation *...* 9. Pageat P, Gaultier E. Current research in *canine* and feline *pheromones*. *...* Comparison of the efficacy of a synthetic *dog*-*appeasing* *pheromone* with clomipramine for the *...*_
Cited by 29 -- Related articles -- All 10 versions -- Cite -- Save -- More


[PDF] avma.org
*Effects of dog-appeasing pheromones on anxiety and fear in puppies during training and on long-term socialization*
S Denenberg, GM Landsberg - JAVMA …, 2008 - Am Vet Med Assoc
_*...* so that it could be determined whether the DAP collars had been *effective* and whether *...* We believed this approach was justified because differences in the *effectiveness* of DAP related *... *Evaluation of *dog*-*appeasing* *pheromone* as a potential treatment for *dogs* fearful of fireworks. *...*_
Cited by 25 -- Related articles -- All 10 versions -- Cite -- Save


*Efficacy of dog-appeasing pheromone in reducing stress associated with social isolation in newly adopted puppies*
E Gaultier, L Bonnafous, D Vienet-Legué… - Veterinary …, 2008 - veterinaryrecord.bmj.com
_*...* *Dog*-*appeasing* *pheromone* (dap) is released by glands in the intermammary sulcus of bitches during the *...* that a synthetic analogue of dap (dap; ceva Animal Health) is *effective* in *calming* *...* This *triple-blind controlled study* was designed to assess the potential *effectiveness* of the *...*_
Cited by 18 -- Related articles -- All 5 versions -- Cite -- Save


[PDF] lincoln.ac.uk
*A placebo-controlled study to investigate the effect of dog appeasing pheromone and other environmental and management factors on the reports of disturbance and …*
K Taylor, DS Mills - Applied Animal Behaviour Science, 2007 - Elsevier
_*...* to sooth the puppy but, to date, none have been shown to be consistently *effective*. *Dog* *Appeasing Pheromone* (DAP, Ceva Santé Animale, France) is a synthetic analogue of the maternal *...* in air diffuser and has been reported to be useful in relieving *canine* anxiety associated *...*_
Cited by 19 -- Related articles -- All 6 versions -- Cite -- Save
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______________________________
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re Anxiety-Wrap, also via Google Scholar -
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[PDF] researchgate.net
*The effectiveness of the Anxiety Wrap in the treatment of canine thunderstorm phobia: An open-label trial*
N Cottam, NH Dodman, JC Ha - Journal of Veterinary Behavior: Clinical …, 2013 - Elsevier
_*...* percent of owners (17/19) reported that the Anxiety Wrap was *effective* to some *...* In the only other study that looked at treatment *effectiveness *for *canine* ThP, the *...* Seventy percent of owners who tried *dog* *appeasing* *pheromone* (DAP; Ceva Sante Animale, Libourne, France) in *...*_
Cited by 17 -- Related articles -- All 8 versions -- Cite -- Save

*Canine aggression toward unfamiliar people and dogs*
LI Haug - Veterinary Clinics of North America: Small Animal …, 2008 - Elsevier
_*...* New Mexico) and the *Anxiety Wrap *(Animals Plus, Huntington, Indiana) have proven *effective *in *calming* *...* Forcing the *dog* into this position will seriously erode the *dog's* trust in the handler *... *Relaxation tasks should serve as another form of safety signal.) The *effectiveness* of these *...*_
Cited by 29 -- Related articles -- All 6 versions -- Cite -- Save
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___________________________________
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re Bach's *Rescue Remedy*, also via Google Scholar -

*When less is better: a comparison of Bach® Flower Remedies and homeopathy*
RA Halberstein, A Sirkin, MM Ojeda-Vaz - Annals of epidemiology, 2010 - Elsevier
_*...* The safety and *effectiveness* of ingestible medicinal substances for healing and health maintenance are *...* companies offer flower essence products that are not endorsed by the *Bach *Centre (21). *...* review of 384 case studies, investigators found that BFRs were *effective* for pain *...*_
Cited by 15 -- Related articles -- All 9 versions -- Cite -- Save
______________________________________________
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.
Anything other citations U'd like, while i've got the page open, & before i have to leave for work?... 
.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

*Cleo38* said,

I can't read the full text ...... so have no idea of the study.
__________________________________________
.
.
I can think of 2 options: buy a copy, or ask Dr Haug to send U a courtesy copy.  All her contact-info is posted above. // On average, a full-text copy runs about $35-usa.
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.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
one of the many past-posts about Dakota & his sibs -
http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/when-desensitization-isn’t-working.427453/#post-1064548697
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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

*Cleo38* said,

...
_Surely after all this time with this dog (& owner) suffering stressful situations[,] medication should be considered -- as there [is] scientific evidence that [meds] can be beneficial in helping stressed / anxious dogs...
__________________________________________
.
.
Where did anyone on this thread, *particularly *moi - as U seem to imply, here - say that "_medication should *not be* considered_"...?!
.
or am i entirely misreading Ur post, @Cleo38 ? - No-one on this thread, not even a licensed vet, could *prescribe *based on a bare-bones outline of a behavioral issue. 
.
I would be more than happy to refer the OP to any *vet-behaviorist*, as they are qualified not only to prescribe Rx but to diagnose behavioral issues, ensure that they are not due to unknown medical problems, *and* provide a written plan for B-Mod to change the underlying emotions, & thus the problematic behaviors.
However, the OP did not ask for that; s/he / they said that they feel capable of coping with this, just want some tips... So i complied.
.
for a slightly-less expensive option than a vet-Beh, the OP could consult a *CAAB* - 
Certified Applied Animal-Behaviorist -- who cannot prescribe, but generally have a vet-behaviorist on call to write needed scrips, & they both will partner with the OP's vet as the hands-on locum to keep them up to speed on any new issues, do exams, bloodwork, etc, as required. 
.
Or, as a yet-further reduction in cost, find a reachable Canine Consultant certified by IAABC - Intl Assoc of Animal-Behavior Counselors.
To find one -
https://iaabc.org/consultants
.
.
Or, if that's still too expensive, find an APDT-uk trainer who is specifically experienced with dog-aggro -
http://www.apdt.co.uk/dog-owners/local-dog-trainers
AND arrange with that trainer to partner with a vet, who will write any needed Rx. 
.
.
I think that covers all the choices - unless there's one U can add, @Cleo38 ? 
.
.
.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> *Cleo38* said,
> 
> ...
> _Surely after all this time with this dog (& owner) suffering stressful situations[,] medication should be considered -- as there [is] scientific evidence that [meds] can be beneficial in helping stressed / anxious dogs...
> ...


Eh???? Where did I say that medication should be prescribed??? I said CONSIDERED .... I posted earlier asking the OP if she had discussed this with her vet. I asked about references to the calming cap & you gave link that was supposed to demonstrate this but where the full text couldn't be read without paying

And how can you refer the OP to a vet in the UK without having any involvement ..... & does it really cover all choices or are you just telling us that


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> *Cleo38* said,
> 
> I can't read the full text ...... so have no idea of the study.
> __________________________________________
> ...


Hahahahahahahaha!!!! Oh that is priceless it really is!!!!!! So the data you have 'provided' you actually have o idea what is actually is,what is shows, what was involved ...... that has made me laugh so much ..... fantastic!!!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

*Cleo38* said,

Eh???? 
Where did I say that *medication should be prescribed*??? I said CONSIDERED .... 
________________________________
.
.
Cleo, dear - i did not say it *should* be prescribed... nor did i previously suggest it should *not* be prescribed.
 I merely observed that it *cannot be *prescribed, over the 'Web.
.
Ergo, if it is / might be / could be / possibly perhaps, needed or wanted... the OP would need to consult a vet, & as this is a behavioral issue, it would be - IMO & IME - best if s/he or they consulted a vet-behaviorist. Do U not agree? :Happy
(Vet-behaviorists are costly, also spread thin upon the ground, so it's likely this would be a remote consult using the services of her / his local vet, & videos of the dog's behavior to allow the Vet-Beh to see it.
I also listed other alternatives - all credentialed, all professionals.  )
.
The OP did, however, state that they'd prefer to attempt to solve this issue on their own - but requested advice. // I gave some. 
.
If U do not want to buy the journal article, U can - as i said - contact Dr Haug & ask if she'd share a courtesy-copy. // It's also possible that there is an open-access copy somewhere on the 'Web, but i did not find such, sorry.
U could, of course, also go to a university library & ask to see a copy of the archived journal?...
.
.
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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

*Cleo38* said,

... _the data you have 'provided' you actually have [*no*] idea what [*it*] actually is, what [*it*] shows, what was involved ... that has made me laugh so much ... fantastic!!! 
_
______________________________
.
.
oh, dear.  Did i say that?... - *Where? :Hilarious *I read it years ago, Cleo.  Glad U enjoyed a laugh from Ur misapprehension. 
.
.
Meanwhile, praps we could return to the actual topic, & possibly the OP would like to share some information about what protocols have been given for the dog's current B-Mod?...
.
.
.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Can we keep this civil please. If you can't read the text in the quote, simply click on it and the whole thing will appear.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> *Cleo38* said,
> 
> ... _the data you have 'provided' you actually have [*no*] idea what [*it*] actually is, what [*it*] shows, what was involved ... that has made me laugh so much ... fantastic!!!
> _
> ...


So you posted a link to a study that can't be read unless paying for ...not really useful is t?! As are most of the link above .... why bother when I doubt many people are really going to pay to read ..... why not say something about the study/result then cite the source otherwise it's just not that useful Perhaps you don't know the details & are just copying & pasting from Google ... who knows 

I specifically asked as the seminar I attended the effectiveness was questioned by professionals (APBC behaviourists), the person discussing the use of these admitted that she could not find any specific studies to demonstrate the effectiveness of these but they were in progress ...hence my asking about it. I do find it odd that there is only one study that you can reference to though, is that really it? Not really much to go on ......

Who


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## popapei (Jul 1, 2016)

The thread is getting way off topic... But for what it's worth, I have already had a ccab behaviourist and a vet behaviourist. The point of this thread is to say that we've tried these, and while they might be good, and I don't doubt their ability or their methods, it isn't working for us.

I get the whole train the human not the dog thing, and I've been taught lots (not just from these trainers, we've done our homework), it's just that our problem doesn't seem to be able to be resolved by traditional methods as he won't eat outside. Despite many hours of just trying to get him to eat, let alone anything else.

As a previous poster mentioned, this has been addressed with "keep trying", "use better treats", "try it when he's calmer", etc. When it gets to the point where you have all manner of things used to calm him down like adaptil, supplements, changing diet, removing food bowl, big play sessions, taking him out in the early hours, etc. And you get a full medical to make sure he's okay. And you try giving him the leftovers from that nights steak dinner. And then if he still won't eat outside, the traditional way of training is not working outside. Don't get me wrong, I've used the clicker to teach him a lot of things in the house/garden. But I've tried endlessly outside with no luck.

So the only thing I can think of now is to find a trainer that will come with me to a park and take the lead and show me how to deal with things, as if it's their dog. For two reasons, one, so they can see exactly how he reacts (they've just gone off what we've told them so far, we're not professionals and could misinterpret aggression with anxiety, for eg) and two, so they can come up with a solution tailored for him rather than send over a generic "Dog aggression outside" print out. It's either that or we just become a victim of Einstein's Insanity - repeating the same thing and expecting different results.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

popapei said:


> Cheers guys, I've contacted cath, will speak to her today.
> 
> The dog father guy is the only trainer I saw that did practical based training, and the great Dane he was seeing to on the TV show is basically my dog, just twice his size. He's quite expensive though so not something I'd be jumping at.
> 
> Think I might have to give in and finally buy that book as it's recommended so often hehe.


Let us know how it goes, always nice to hear of progress the more 'challenging' dogs make .... & am sure you will do ... even just a bit!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

popapei said:


> The thread is getting way off topic... But for what it's worth, I have already had a ccab behaviourist and a vet behaviourist. The point of this thread is to say that we've tried these, and while they might be good, and I don't doubt their ability or their methods, it isn't working for us.
> 
> I get the whole train the human not the dog thing, and I've been taught lots (not just from these trainers, we've done our homework), it's just that our problem doesn't seem to be able to be resolved by traditional methods as he won't eat outside. Despite many hours of just trying to get him to eat, let alone anything else.
> 
> ...


Agree, this ois how I felt with Roxy ... I read lots, tried t implement as I could (most of us here as pet dog owners not experts), paid various people to give me help ...... but none ofit appeared to be working much. All cases are different & your approach may vary (according to your capability, your dog & the environment you have to be in) but the fact that you haven't made any progress (if you really think that) might mean that medication may help your dog relax & e in more of a position to learn. My dog was prescribed Prozac (might not be suitable for your dog so discuss with your vet)& this is when we had a small improvement that helped us.

Yep .... also been told by people that I wasn't doing it properly ... or not using the right food ..... although it honestly didn't matter if she had a 5 course steak dinner put in front of her, she was far too anxious to eat ..... oh & my anxiety was affecting her so stop being anxious ... eh?? ... easier said than done!!!

There does come a point when you do question everything & really need some answers ..... I think you will do it but maybe as you say you need that support so when you are out you react appropriately


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

@popapei Well done with sticking with your dog, many would give up 

I'd say ignore the waffle that has happened here (most of us do these days lol) and see what the behaviourists and trainers recommended say, you may find that with practical help things slot into place much easier.

Please keep us updated on how things progress


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## HollyDolly (Sep 5, 2016)

This guy http://www.k9servicesplus.com/ is probably localish to you. He came to my house and to the park with us on first visit then I did 2 more sessions with him at his training field. Worked wonders, different issues to you but one of his own dogs was similar to yours. Happy to answers any questions you may have, maybe by private message as this forum can be a bit judgy at times


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

*HollyDolly* said,

_This guy http://www.k9servicesplus.com/ is probably localish to you. 
He came to my house and to the park with us on first visit - then I did 2 more sessions with him at his training field. Worked wonders..._
____________________________
.
.
If U say that *Phil Campbell* was helpful with Ur dog, i'm certainly not about to dispute it, but there's nothing on that website to give me any confidence in this person as a trainer, let alone for B-Mod, which is considerably more-complex than teaching cued behaviors.
There's no mention of what methods, any tools used, etc, & absolutely no membership in any professional organization, nor any academic credentials - *other than* _*Dip.dog.psy*_, which presumably refers to a "diplomate dog psychology"?....
Who awards that diploma? 
.
The various dog-pro organizations DO vary in value - the Guild of Dog-trainers is a self-awarding group, they sell classes, U pay for classes, they declare U competent. No 3rd party oversight, & if U drop membership in the Guild, the various "degrees" evaporate. 
The APDT-uk assesses applicants & accepts only those who pass; they have published criteria, list tools that cannot be used, & ban confrontation, brute force, intimidation / flooding, & aversive tools [prongs, choke AKA infinite-slip, shock collars, rattle cans, water balloons, etc].
I wouldn't hire a GoDT member; i'd gladly hire an APDT-uk trainer. 
.
The fella who refers to himself as a "dog psychologist" most-often & brought that made-up term into popular usage is utterly self-taught: Cesar Millan, whose ideas about dogs & their behavior fall into 3 categories: hoary old myths [pack theory, etc], his own hypotheses [also myths], & *sometimes* an idea or practice he lifted from someone else, that's true & can work.
Sadly, the 3rd category is the least common. // The only book CM / DW has ever read was published in the 1960s by a WW-2 vet, a dog handler for the Army who became a trainer as a civilian.
.
The U-S Army in WW-2 had a 60% failure rate among the dogs donated for war-work, & the dogs had just 6 to 8-weeks to move from green & ignorant to the front lines. "Harsh" doesn't even touch it - "brutal" comes close. How they got the dogs to behave reliably was immaterial; *the dogs had to do what they were told to do, period**. *Jerking, hitting, angry shouts, double-handed "corrections" that moved the dogs several feet with their force, & so on.
.
Mr Campbell doesn't mention who his mentors were, nor any role-models, nor his training philosophy - "we treat your dog as a unique individual" can just as easily be read, "we make it up as we go along". // I'm not saying he's mean to dogs, nor that he's incompetent, but there's nothing but testimonials on that website.
 
I'd want to know a lot more than that, before i handed my dog's leash to a stranger. Even while i stood beside them.
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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
from the APDT-uk trainers' page, as U said Manchester / Cheshire - I'm including only those who list 'behavior', as well as working with adult dogs.
.
.
*Suzanne Holding*
Address: 10 Patterson Street, Denton, Manchester M34 3AL
Telephone: 0161 335 0232
Mobile: 07740 300246
Email: [email protected]
Website: www.dogtrainers.org.uk
Puppy & Adult 
One-to-one, KC Good Citizens, Home visits & Behaviour
Agility
member #00629

in Cheshire,
*Angela Pitman*
Address: 3c Nuns Road, Chester, Cheshire CH1 2LZ
Telephone: 01244 297518
Mobile: 07773 598115
Email: [email protected]
Website: www.fidodogtraining.co.uk
Puppy& Adult 
Clicker, One-to-one, Home visits, Behaviour
Deaf dog training; Nosework classes
member #00385

*Tracey Collier*
Address: 11 Laurel Drive, Timperley, Altrincham, Cheshire, WA15 7PW
Telephone: 0161 9802037
Email: [email protected]
Puppy & Adult 
Clicker, One to one, KC Good Cits, Home visits, Behaviour

Services also in Manchester
member #00876

*Christine Davies*
Address: 147 Walton Road, Sale, Cheshire, M33 4FS
Telephone: 0161 962 8959
Email: [email protected]
Website: www.k9-leaders.co.uk
Puppy & Adult 
Clicker, One to One, KC Good Cits, Behaviour
member #00892

*Karen Ingram*
Address: 16 Crosland Terrac, Helsby, Frodsham, Cheshire, WA6 9LY
Mobile: 07709 636556
Email: [email protected]
Puppy & Adult
Clicker, One to one, KC good cits
Home visits, Behaviour
Flyball, Agility, Canine CSI fun
member #00994

there are 2 more in Cheshire [Laura Francis & Sharon Gorst] who also list behavior as a specialty. // Hope this helps. 
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.
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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> Agree, this ois how I felt with Roxy ... I read lots, tried t implement as I could (most of us here as pet dog owners not experts), paid various people to give me help ...... but none ofit appeared to be working much. All cases are different & your approach may vary (according to your capability, your dog & the environment you have to be in) but the fact that you haven't made any progress (if you really think that) might mean that medication may help your dog relax & e in more of a position to learn. My dog was prescribed Prozac (might not be suitable for your dog so discuss with your vet)& this is when we had a small improvement that helped us.
> 
> Yep .... also been told by people that I wasn't doing it properly ... or not using the right food ..... although it honestly didn't matter if she had a 5 course steak dinner put in front of her, she was far too anxious to eat ..... oh & my anxiety was affecting her so stop being anxious ... eh?? ... easier said than done!!!
> 
> There does come a point when you do question everything & really need some answers ..... I think you will do it but maybe as you say you need that support so when you are out you react appropriately


How is Roxy now? I've missed a lot from not being around after I lost both Ferdie and Diva.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> How is Roxy now? I've missed a lot from not being around after I lost both Ferdie and Diva.


Much, much better. She will never be a confident dog but she gets over her anxieties alot quicker now. She's fine with other dogs at a distance now & I've been on several courses with her over the years, thanks for asking after her 

But we've had a tough time lately & she's only now getting back to normal as my Toby had to be pts in January & we were both heartbroken


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> Much, much better. She will never be a confident dog but she gets over her anxieties alot quicker now. She's fine with other dogs at a distance now & I've been on several courses with her over the years, thanks for asking after her
> 
> But we've had a tough time lately & she's only now getting back to normal as my Toby had to be pts in January & we were both heartbroken


Oh no. I'm so sorry to hear about Toby. Your hard work with Roxy paid off though; I well remember introducing her to Joshua through the fence at Magog Downs! Well done for not giving up on her.

Will you get another, do you think? I won't. I miss having a dog after 36 years, especially a newfie, but they break your heart and I'm too old for it. Give Roxy a cuddle from me. Don't tell her it's from me though, as she probably doesn't like stranger cuddles!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Oh no. I'm so sorry to hear about Toby. Your hard work with Roxy paid off though; I well remember introducing her to Joshua through the fence at Magog Downs! Well done for not giving up on her.
> 
> Will you get another, do you think? I won't. I miss having a dog after 36 years, especially a newfie, but they break your heart and I'm too old for it. Give Roxy a cuddle from me. Don't tell her it's from me though, as she probably doesn't like stranger cuddles!


There was no way I was giving up on her ... am stubborn like that! 

I already have another dog Archer my young GSD so am down to 2 dogs. He is an amazing boy that I am training at an IPO club with.He is so funny & cheeky (just like Toby) & has really helped get us through these tough times.

Toby was my first dog who I waited so long for & I don't think I will ever get over losing him. I miss him so much & completely understand how you can't go through it again .... I now keep worrying about Roxy as she' getting on. I think she was 3 when we went over to Magog Downs & she will be 10 in Novemeber, time seems to go so quickly


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
re the Calming Cap, just as an aside -
it's also suggested as a tool to reduce stress at the vet's office, & here's a PDF document from the Veterinary Partners Appreciation Conference (VPAC), an annual get-together to share information.

*Low Stress Handling of Small Animal Patients*
J Albright - 2014 - trace.tennessee.edu
*...* 2: Staff interactions 
• Don't invade space • Don't corner • Don't lean over • Don't reach out • Do ask *dog* to approach • Do approach sideways, backwards, eyes averted *...* 
3 • Muzzles - basket preferred • *Calming* *Cap* (Thunder *Cap*) • E-‐collar +/-‐ towel • Towel wraps *...*
Cite -- Save
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.
here's the specific slide from their presentation -








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## popapei (Jul 1, 2016)

We went to see cath yesterday and the net thing we took home was "don't walk him". Along with a small exercise to try. That's pretty much it. No follow up, no examples of what to do when we do come across a dog, and no hope of things getting better. He can't snap at other dogs if he never goes on a walk though, right? We should take him to a private field once a week for exercise, "luckily" she has one we can hire. Except it's again a 50min drive either way.

I don't doubt her ability, she trained dogs for gmp after all, and knows much more than I ever would about dogs. But to basically tell me to give up and when asking about being able to walk him in the park at some point in the future, a response of "just wait until you get your next one" is not really what I'm paying a professional to help with, my mate would say that for free.

So that's another trainer down. Looking forward to the next.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

popapei said:


> We went to see cath yesterday and the net thing we took home was "don't walk him". Along with a small exercise to try. That's pretty much it. No follow up, no examples of what to do when we do come across a dog, and no hope of things getting better. He can't snap at other dogs if he never goes on a walk though, right? We should take him to a private field once a week for exercise, "luckily" she has one we can hire. Except it's again a 50min drive either way.
> 
> I don't doubt her ability, she trained dogs for gmp after all, and knows much more than I ever would about dogs. But to basically tell me to give up and when asking about being able to walk him in the park at some point in the future, a response of "just wait until you get your next one" is not really what I'm paying a professional to help with, my mate would say that for free.
> 
> So that's another trainer down. Looking forward to the next.


Sounds to me like she knows sod all about dogs. This sounds like the Dog Listener person, somebody Fennell; I have heard she declares that dogs don't need walking. If you want your dog to be a nervous wreck and terrified of dogs, people and anything, 'don't walk him' is great advice.

The problem is there are too many people who think they can set themselves up as dog trainers. Whereabouts are you?


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## Rudydog (Nov 15, 2014)

Sorry you have had disappointing feedback, did they give you any more insight about his issues (i.e. it is fear based etc...?).

It may be worth trying Jason here: http://simplydogbehaviour.co.uk/about/
He helped us with some 121 BAT training (you can read more about BAT here: http://grishastewart.com/). The sessions we had with Jason where very practical: we went to the park together and he showed us how to handle the lead, how to read Rudy's and other dog's body language, where Rudy's threshold was (in other words what distance from other dogs he was comfortable with) and how to slowly reduce this over time. I must say it may not be suitable for your dog and as has been said I think not all dogs can be rehabilitated which is why it would be useful to know what the behaviourist said.

For us, Rudy's mild reactivity was a mixture of nervousness and frustration: in that he wanted to meet the dogs but was a bit unsure of himself and didn't display the correct body language and lacked self control which landed him into trouble a couple of times when he was younger, increasing his nervousness. BAT worked really well for us so maybe worth you having a chat with Jason?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Me and Spen did general obedience classes with Suzanne Holding. I liked her although I know a lot won't agree with all her views. I especially like the fact they do classes out in the real world as well as in a hall, we went on their Sunday "boot camp" until I was too heavily pregnant to manage it then switched to the indoor classes and got our good citizen. She wasn't really able to help me with Rupert but neither was anyone else lol.

"Don't walk him" may actually be a valid short term measure. This is well worth a read if you haven't already seen it.
http://reactivechampion.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/the-stress-bathtub.html
but no, I can't say I'd be happy at that response as a long term measure. It's not even practical, even reactive dogs have to go to the vets, need exercise etc.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

popapei said:


> We went to see cath yesterday and the net thing we took home was "don't walk him". Along with a small exercise to try. That's pretty much it. No follow up, no examples of what to do when we do come across a dog, and no hope of things getting better. He can't snap at other dogs if he never goes on a walk though, right? We should take him to a private field once a week for exercise, "luckily" she has one we can hire. Except it's again a 50min drive either way.
> 
> I don't doubt her ability, she trained dogs for gmp after all, and knows much more than I ever would about dogs. But to basically tell me to give up and when asking about being able to walk him in the park at some point in the future, a response of "just wait until you get your next one" is not really what I'm paying a professional to help with, my mate would say that for free.
> 
> So that's another trainer down. Looking forward to the next.


Not all dogs can be "fixed" nor do all dogs like to walk in populated areas...You don't walk him for now because he needs to reduce his stress levels.
I don't believe that all she said was to not walk him and give up.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> Not all dogs can be "fixed" nor do all dogs like to walk in populated areas...You don't walk him for now because he needs to reduce his stress levels.
> I don't believe that all she said was to not walk him and give up.


It's not a response I'd expect from that particular trainer but it's one I had many times with Rupert.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> It's not a response I'd expect from that particular trainer but it's one I had many times with Rupert.


Sometimes the moment you stop trying to "fix" everything, is the moment that things start to come together 
Obviously with your Rupert he was never going to be your typical happy go lucky social butterfly (by any stretch) but just accepting your dog for who they are takes away a lot of the stress


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> Sometimes the moment you stop trying to "fix" everything, is the moment that things start to come together
> Obviously with your Rupert he was never going to be your typical happy go lucky social butterfly (by any stretch) but just accepting your dog for who they are takes away a lot of the stress


Oh definitely! Once I did give up and just accept that he was always going to be a neurotic mess things were a lot less stressful even when we did have to go to the vets etc. Although I have to admit that 5 years after he's gone I still look for that fix lol.

We walked in the middle of the night as not walking at all was not an option. Toilet trips during the day were kept as short as possible. Wasn't what I wanted for myself or my dog but sometimes you do just have to accept what you have and work within the boundaries you've got.


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## popapei (Jul 1, 2016)

newfiesmum said:


> Whereabouts are you?


We're in Manchester/Cheshire areas. But we've traveled to Surrey in the past to what we thought was a well recommended trainer.



Rudydog said:


> Sorry you have had disappointing feedback, did they give you any more insight about his issues (i.e. it is fear based etc...?).
> 
> It may be worth trying Jason here: http://simplydogbehaviour.co.uk/about/
> He helped us with some 121 BAT training (you can read more about BAT here: http://grishastewart.com/). The sessions we had with Jason where very practical: we went to the park together and he showed us how to handle the lead, how to read Rudy's and other dog's body language, where Rudy's threshold was (in other words what distance from other dogs he was comfortable with) and how to slowly reduce this over time. I must say it may not be suitable for your dog and as has been said I think not all dogs can be rehabilitated which is why it would be useful to know what the behaviourist said.
> ...


Not this time, but a previous behaviourist has said the same as you really, anxious but curios and lacking impulse control. I've looked at that BAT method before and did my best at giving it a go but I think I would need someone experienced in it to show me how to do it properly. When I tried my dog was just at the end of the line pulling at all times to everything, though I probably didn't do anything correctly. Might be something I should consider and look into more though.



Sarah1983 said:


> "Don't walk him" may actually be a valid short term measure. This is well worth a read if you haven't already seen it.
> http://reactivechampion.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/the-stress-bathtub.html
> but no, I can't say I'd be happy at that response as a long term measure. It's not even practical, even reactive dogs have to go to the vets, need exercise etc.


Yeah totally agree with that, we do forego walks when he (or I) are too stressed out, or if he's had a couple of bad days to let him calm down. But he is always so excited to go for a walk when we do go and as you said it's not entirely practical. It doesn't solve, nor help at all really, the problem, it just avoids it completely.



StormyThai said:


> Not all dogs can be "fixed" nor do all dogs like to walk in populated areas...You don't walk him for now because he needs to reduce his stress levels.
> I don't believe that all she said was to not walk him and give up.


We have a number of measures to reduce his stress levels, and as I mentioned not taking him anywhere he's going to stress out more is one of them. I don't want to fix him, I just want him to enjoy his walks, and if we don't get too close to any dogs he does. I just want help with the times when I can't avoid other dogs. I've seen him play with loads of dogs, and he gets on fine with a couple of dogs, and some dogs don't trigger it as much as other dogs, this leads me to think he has the means to stay calm enough, he just doesn't know when/how. Nor do I.

The entirety of the session went something like this... We spoke a little about him, and his past. Afterwhich she explained how we made a bad breed choice and we at least know better next time, and about how we shouldn't of picked a dog from this kind of breeder. She's right, but hindsight is a wonderful thing. She explained how dogs don't always need exercise, they just need to be healthy, like us, and if walking him is too stressful for both of us then to not do it, as she does with one of her dogs. Then we did a little exercise with a toy dog, to see how reactive he was. We've got our own stuffed dog, and have used this method in training, personally I think he's smart enough to know the difference as he was curious but thats it, no hind legs, no snarling, etc. And remarkably, he ate cheese, which shows he was nowhere near as stressed as he usually gets. If that was a real rottweiler it would of been a much different story, I'm sure. She said to practise turning away from a dog and giving him a treat. I've tried this with dogs he knows, but he's just too excited to see them to eat. Tried with just dogs he sees on the field and he also doesn't eat, preferring either to stare at them if they're too close, or just sniff grass and ignore me if far away. It was at this point I asked about moving forward, and she said there's no point going back for a follow up as she can't do anything else, unless he gets any better then she could help in future maybe. I said the end result I'm looking for is to be able to go for a walk to a park as a family (not socialize with dogs, not even playing ball or going near other dogs, just so he doesn't freak out when he sees/hears another dog) and her response was "Don't. Leave him at home while you go to the park and wait until you get your next dog." She then spoke about his diet and the field she has for hire and that was it.

As I said, I don't believe she is a bad trainer, she looked the part and has trained police dogs after all. I just don't think she's what we need. Maybe she saw him and thought he's too much work, I don't know.

We've not had a trainer that is willing to see him as a challenge, or really test out his behaviours. We have no way of controlling other dogs when we go to the park, I was hoping a trainer could set up a controlled environment or so with different stooge dogs, and see what he's really like and how to handle him. None of the trainers have even seen what he's like when I walk him on a typical day and he sees a dog, I could be doing everything wrong for all I know. None seem willing to actually get to know him, and form a friendly bond as he doesn't like people unless he gets to know them. I haven't given up with trainers yet simply because I've not seen any put in any real effort (don't take that as doing all the work, I don't expect that at all, I simply mean effort helping me help him).


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## Rudydog (Nov 15, 2014)

popapei said:


> Not this time, but a previous behaviourist has said the same as you really, anxious but curios and lacking impulse control. I've looked at that BAT method before and did my best at giving it a go but I think I would need someone experienced in it to show me how to do it properly. When I tried my dog was just at the end of the line pulling at all times to everything, though I probably didn't do anything correctly. Might be something I should consider and look into more though.


I would suggest that you were too close then, if your dog is reacting (pulling at the end of the line etc...) you are too close. I think it is really worth working with a professional on this because they will teach you how to read your dog's body language. With Rudy the signs were very subtle that he was about to go over threshold - usually a quick flick of the tongue... so very easily missed had they not been pointed out to me by someone who knew better.


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## Rudydog (Nov 15, 2014)

popapei said:


> We've not had a trainer that is willing to see him as a challenge, or really test out his behaviours. We have no way of controlling other dogs when we go to the park, I was hoping a trainer could set up a controlled environment or so with different stooge dogs, and see what he's really like and how to handle him. None of the trainers have even seen what he's like when I walk him on a typical day and he sees a dog, I could be doing everything wrong for all I know. None seem willing to actually get to know him, and form a friendly bond as he doesn't like people unless he gets to know them. I haven't given up with trainers yet simply because I've not seen any put in any real effort (don't take that as doing all the work, I don't expect that at all, I simply mean effort helping me help him).


I do think it is worth you maybe trying Jason who I recommended. he is very hands on and even on our first session, after a chat and questions at home, we went to the park with Rudy where he took the lead and showed us what signs to be looking for and how to handle real life situations.

I too struggled to find other trainers to work with us in the real world and I was very clear that this is what I was after the first time I spoke to Jason. I also think that whilst using stooge dogs is preferred, it is hard to have access to a sufficient number of stooge dogs to make real progress (this is what I had previously found anyway).

If nothing else, I found it a huge confidence booster to have someone guide me though situations which I had previously been completely avoiding. As it is Rudy's reactivity is all but gone now. he does still have the occasional grumble when on the lead and only to GSDs or BCs for some reason but this is very rare nowadays, off lead he is totally fine although having said that I go out of my way to avoid other dogs we do not know on walks.... but like you say you can't control all dogs and there is always the odd one who needs to come over and introduce themselves so its good to have the piece of mind that Rudy will be able to cope on those occasions.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

popapei said ...

The entirety of the session went something like this... We spoke a little about him, and his past. Afterwhich she explained how we made a bad breed choice and we at least know better next time, and about how we shouldn't of picked a dog from this kind of breeder. She's right, but hindsight is a wonderful thing. She explained how dogs don't always need exercise, they just need to be healthy, like us, and if walking him is too stressful for both of us then to not do it, as she does with one of her dogs. Then we did a little exercise with a toy dog, to see how reactive he was. We've got our own stuffed dog, and have used this method in training, personally I think he's smart enough to know the difference as he was curious but thats it, no hind legs, no snarling, etc. And remarkably, he ate cheese, which shows he was nowhere near as stressed as he usually gets. If that was a real rottweiler it would of been a much different story, I'm sure. She said to practise turning away from a dog and giving him a treat. I've tried this with dogs he knows, but he's just too excited to see them to eat. Tried with just dogs he sees on the field and he also doesn't eat, preferring either to stare at them if they're too close, or just sniff grass and ignore me if far away. It was at this point I asked about moving forward, and she said there's no point going back for a follow up as she can't do anything else, unless he gets any better then she could help in future maybe. I said the end result I'm looking for is to be able to go for a walk to a park as a family (not socialize with dogs, not even playing ball or going near other dogs, just so he doesn't freak out when he sees/hears another dog) and her response was "Don't. Leave him at home while you go to the park and wait until you get your next dog." She then spoke about his diet and the field she has for hire and that was it.

As I said, I don't believe she is a bad trainer, she looked the part and has trained police dogs after all. I just don't think she's what we need. Maybe she saw him and thought he's too much work, I don't know.

We've not had a trainer that is willing to see him as a challenge, or really test out his behaviours. We have no way of controlling other dogs when we go to the park, I was hoping a trainer could set up a controlled environment or so with different stooge dogs, and see what he's really like and how to handle him. None of the trainers have even seen what he's like when I walk him on a typical day and he sees a dog, I could be doing everything wrong for all I know. None seem willing to actually get to know him, and form a friendly bond as he doesn't like people unless he gets to know them. I haven't given up with trainers yet simply because I've not seen any put in any real effort (don't take that as doing all the work, I don't expect that at all, I simply mean effort helping me help him).[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately there are trainers who are very "down" on Pei mainly because Pei have very subtle body language which unless you're around the dog regularly is difficult to read. They're also a breed that in order to train them successfully you have to create a strong "understanding" between you. It sounds very much as if she wasn't prepared to make the effort and blamed it all on the breed of dog! As a Pei owner myself, I would have been furious at someone who didn't have the grace to admit to their own inadequacies!

I second the suggestion that @ Rudydog made about BAT training or even better CAT (Controlled Aggression Treatment) training. (A google search will explain the difference between the two).

I don't know about the UK but here in Hungary where IPO (Schutzhund) is popular, most trainers,like the one we have now, train using the BAT method. Our previous trainer also used the CAT method to rehabilitate reactive dogs. Before my two started their BH (Begleithund) training with him he tested their stress threshold. My Pei has an exceptionally high threshold and is virtually bomb proof, so much so that she has been used as a stooge dog working with reactive dogs. I've seen for myself what can be achieved with the right trainer! As Rudydog says with the best will in the world BAT/CAT training isn't something you can do yourself, you need someone with the right dogs and experience to help you.

Obviously it's ridiculous to expect any dog to spend the rest of it's life confined to a garden. Is it possible to walk him at times when there aren't other dogs around, like very early morning or late at night? I would also work on strengthening his bond with you and more importantly teaching him to "watch me" which you can easily do either in the house or garden as well as practicing it when you're out walking with him. I know you haven't had much luck with treats or toys and I wonder if you've ever tried praise and touch instead? When my Pei was visually impaired for nearly 6 months and as a result suffered from acute anxiety I used to calm her down by making sure my leg was in contact with her body, and giving her a massage whilst talking to her quietly. Praise is something I use regularly as both my dogs often respond better to praise than they do to treats ... toys, neither of them have ever been interested in. Give praise a try and see what happens!


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## applecrumlin (Mar 8, 2015)

I'm sorry you are having such a frustrating time; you really do sound like you've got the patience of a saint!

I'm sure you have already thought of this, but just in case you think he might ever accept a food treat, primula cheese can be squirted into a muzzle. You can also buy soft silicon squirty bottles to fill with soft food of his choice.

The only other thing that comes to mind is to wonder if a class might be helpful at some stage? Not, of course, for him to actually take part, but as somewhere that you can predict that there will be a group of dogs all on leads, and you can maybe find a place to watch from a fixed distance and build up his tolerance to seeing them? I realise that this could potentially make things a whole lot worse, so it is very much a loose "suggestion in principle".


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

When you are talking on the phone or via email, ask if follow up stooge dog/practical work is offered, if it's not what you are looking for it's best not to waste your time. When we did a lot of behavioural work we offered stooge dog work and follow up rehabilitation classes, but I know it's not common. Best of luck hope you find what you are looking for.


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## popapei (Jul 1, 2016)

Magyarmum said:


> Unfortunately there are trainers who are very "down" on Pei mainly because Pei have very subtle body language which unless you're around the dog regularly is difficult to read. They're also a breed that in order to train them successfully you have to create a strong "understanding" between you. It sounds very much as if she wasn't prepared to make the effort and blamed it all on the breed of dog! As a Pei owner myself, I would have been furious at someone who didn't have the grace to admit to their own inadequacies!
> 
> I second the suggestion that @ Rudydog made about BAT training or even better CAT (Controlled Aggression Treatment) training. (A google search will explain the difference between the two).
> 
> ...


I do tend to walk him late at night, and I do give him lots of praise when we're walking okay. He seems to ignore me a lot though outside, smells are better than me I think. He's quite good at watch when there's nothing too interesting around, in the garden and house he'll do it fine, just like he'll heel like a pro in the house/garden too. Outside he'll watch me when he really wants to sniff something on my side of the lead, or on the private field he'll do so for his ball. But if there's a dog or cat or squirrel he can't watch me because I don't exist in that moment :/

The underlying problem is that I've taught him all the necessary skills in the house and garden but have never, no matter how much I've tried, been able to transfer this skills outside because of lack of interest in food. The only times I can work on commands outside is the private field as I can take his muzzle off and use a ball. Another thing no trainer has taken seriously or even considered is how high is toy drive is. We have a nightmare neighbour dog who sends ours into a frenzy and the only thing that distracts him is his ball unless we've got some super good treats at hand.

@applecrumlin we've tried squirty stuff, he loves it in the house, but not outside :/ we find it quite hard to feed through his muzzle, we have three different sizes of the Baskerville ultra but he has an odd shape mouth with lots of folds so I'm not sure if any of them fit perfectly. I give it much easier to treat him without his muzzle and he takes more too, but last time I decided to go out early in the morning without his muzzle so I could try a few things, hoping it was really enough to avoid other dogs, a staff came running from nowhere with no owner insight straight for him. He nipped it, there was blood, and a teenager came wandering out a few mins later.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Sounds to me like she knows sod all about dogs. This sounds like the Dog Listener person, somebody Fennell; I have heard she declares that dogs don't need walking. If you want your dog to be a nervous wreck and terrified of dogs, people and anything, 'don't walk him' is great advice.
> 
> The problem is there are too many people who think they can set themselves up as dog trainers. Whereabouts are you?


Well it may sound like it to you but of course we only have a truncated one sided picture.

Knowing Cath personally I can vouch for her skills, knowledge, ability, training and expertise.

And she is about as far removed from Jan Fennell as it is possible to be! 

It is easy to slag off people one does not know without knowing the full picture and of course ALL of us could state exactly the same about many people both on this forum and not.

But I agree with you, there are far too many people who think they can set themselves up as knowledgeable and skilled when they are anything but.

Cath is not one of those individuals and has a great deal of success herself and with her clients.

And is very qualified..................... both in the academic and practical side.


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## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

Ok, what I'm going to say is not meant to come across harsh or mean, but it's probably going to read that way 

I think you need to adjust your expectations. You're putting too much pressure on him to live up to, and you're setting yourself up for disappointment when he doesn't meet your expectations. You have to accept the dog you have in front of you, for both your sakes.

If walks stress him out, not taking him out is the logical alternative. There are plenty of things that you can do other than walkies, trust me it will open up your creativity...the things that can be done with an egg box! 

Have a look for Fidget The Brave on FB. He's my boy, and he hasn't been out for a walk for 5 months. He is also on Prozac.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

I presume you've looked around for a trainer that runs BAT style 'reactive dog' classes? I think this is the sort of thing you are seeking by the sounds of it. There are lots of them about although obviously you'll have to travel to one.

You mention toy drive, if he has a really strong desire for toys then that is great and something you can work with.


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## popapei (Jul 1, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> Well it may sound like it to you but of course we only have a truncated one sided picture.
> 
> Knowing Cath personally I can vouch for her skills, knowledge, ability, training and expertise.
> 
> ...


As I mentioned, I didn't say she's bad. She's just not a right fit for us I don't think. She's clearly qualified for dog training, not sure why she couldn't help us further.



Kimmikins said:


> Ok, what I'm going to say is not meant to come across harsh or mean, but it's probably going to read that way
> 
> I think you need to adjust your expectations. You're putting too much pressure on him to live up to, and you're setting yourself up for disappointment when he doesn't meet your expectations. You have to accept the dog you have in front of you, for both your sakes.
> 
> ...


On the contrary, I've been told this before, when I did have high expectations. I wanted him to heel for the most part, to not pull at all, to play with other dogs, to be fine off leash, etc. I quickly realised he's likely never going to be able to do any of that. From knowing my dog very well though, I strongly believe he can learn to be calmer around other dogs, I've seen him do it, at varying distances, and I've seen him settle quickly afterwards at times too. The thing is I can't set up environments or have the proper know how to even try to teach him. I can't say he's unable to do it before we've actually tried it. If we did find a trainer that could bring out stooge dogs, or set up a controlled environment, or even just a few attempts with a trainer outside around other dogs and that trainer said there's no point continuing then I couldn't argue and would probably give up for lack of ideas at least.



labradrk said:


> I presume you've looked around for a trainer that runs BAT style 'reactive dog' classes? I think this is the sort of thing you are seeking by the sounds of it. There are lots of them about although obviously you'll have to travel to one.
> 
> You mention toy drive, if he has a really strong desire for toys then that is great and something you can work with.


I've not really looked into it too much to be honest, but since a previous poster mentioned he had good results I think I will look into it more, probably contacting the trainer he mentioned.

He does really really enjoy his ball but I can only use it on a private field as he wears a muzzle outside. I've tried the stringy balls too but he loses interest because he can't hold it in his mouth I think. I've mentioned his toy drive to a few of the trainers but none have really took any notice and instead push food based training despite his lack of interest in food. I've even sent them a video showing him heeling, staying at a distance and finding his ball on command when using a ball to show how much he focuses but it was dismissed because "he is just focusing on the ball and not you". Which I didn't get because he has to listen to me to do the commands but it was at a point where I just thought I would listen to the professional and not my own, inexperienced, opinion.


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## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

The being calmer and helping him, I cannot praise enough  My focus has switched from getting him to come to the cafe with us, to being happy in his own company. Instead of "curing" his reactivity, we are working on making him a few select doggy friends. Definitely keep looking for somebody who will use lots of different methods; we use stooge dogs (living and stuffed), stress holidays etc. All of it is helping but Fidget will never be a sociable dog. He will always be a douche


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

My trainer is about an hour and a half from Manchester, so probably too far. She has been brilliant for my Yorkie. I can PM her details if you want. She does lots of practical work and has a stooge dog. She didn't introduce her dog though until she had shown me what to do. 

I think that the trainer probably just meant that the situation of the park would be too much for your dog and so it would be fairer to not take them.


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## applecrumlin (Mar 8, 2015)

I've often seen it written that toys tend to be more useful in training fast and energetic behaviours, and food tends to be more useful in promoting calmer and more thoughtful behaviours. That might partially explain some of the trainers' bias towards food rewards, even when your dog isn't really motivated by it.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

applecrumlin said:


> I've often seen it written that toys tend to be more useful in training fast and energetic behaviours, and food tends to be more useful in promoting calmer and more thoughtful behaviours. That might partially explain some of the trainers' bias towards food rewards, even when your dog isn't really motivated by it.


That is true, but if boils down to a case of a dogs toy drive somehow being helpful to utilise for it's reactivity then it's worth looking at IMO, especially when we are looking more at management rather than a cure.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

applecrumlin said:


> I've often seen it written that toys tend to be more useful in training fast and energetic behaviours, and food tends to be more useful in promoting calmer and more thoughtful behaviours. That might partially explain some of the trainers' bias towards food rewards, even when your dog isn't really motivated by it.


That greatly depends on each individual dog. I've used food to create drive and balls/toys for calm focus and vice versa.


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## Jayne and sammy senorita (May 29, 2017)

Hi there. I have the same trouble with sammy re dogs out on walks, tried two different behaviourists each have different approaches. The only time she will take a treat on a walk is if I say leave in quite a low voice. So I am going back to basics and any behaviour where I think she will bark at something she doesn't like I say leave, if she doesn't bark immediately give high value treat and say good in high pitched, stoopid, nutty woman voice! I also walk her on a halti head harness which gives me control of her head and muzzle rather be safe than sorry. Some people hate them some like, it works for me as it stops her pulling and to be honest i was getting ruddy dizzy keep turning round and stopping on walks when she pulled. She is more fearful than aggressive and says hello to dogs nice once she can calm.

There are so many different methods, you just need to find something that works for you and your dog. 

Good luck let us know how you get on.
X


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## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

This thread brings back quite a few memories. 

I used to have 2 pei mix's... both of which came under the description of 'reactive' .. one that acted like she wanted to cause harm & the other just got completely over excited. 

One of them was my very first dog & the reason why I joined the forum. 

I remember my 'breakthrough' being when I just accepted her as reactive & stopped trying to fix her... but just manage the reactivity. She refused toys & treats on walks. It was a nightmare. So we walked at quiet times or rented out our own fields - there's quite a few rent a field places near you I think ? Not just caths. 
Every time we saw another dog we just got ourselves out of the way... I now have eagle eyes for dog spotting in the distance ha. Even if it meant a complete U turn. 

I feel your pain, especially if you want one of those 'family dogs to take to the park' (my step families Labrador makes me eye roll... no official training or anything but he can go anywhere with no fuss  ) 

Good luck for the future & dont be too hard on yourself either  I hope you find someone to spend the time with you that you're looking for. 

Sorry I have no helpful advice!


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