# URGENT - Border collie - extremely serious aggression issue



## sarie

My parents have a 3 year old Border Collie called Sam. They previously had another collie who lived to 13 years old without any problems at all and was a loving well-rounded dog so they have had prior experience bringing up and living with collies.

Sam came from working parents and was sold (in my opinion) far too young at just 6 weeks old. The farmer wanted rid of him and wasn't prepared to keep him longer than that.

From an early age Sam has shown signs of aggression towards people and other dogs. He attended puppy parties as a young pup and attended dog training classes from an early age. From around 8 months he also attended agility. Unfortunately he developed some quite serious dog aggression despite quite a bit of socialisation from an early age and he became such a liability at dog training and agility classes that my mum refused to take him anymore and aged about 18 months he stopped attending both.

Sam also started showing food aggression towards my parents from a very early age as well as protective aggression with certain rooms in the house as well as his bed from around 8 months old.

Sam has a bed in my parents room in the far corner and sleeps upstairs with them and one night my dad reached down out of bed in the dark to retrieve a pillow he'd dropped from the bed and didn't realise Sam was lying nearby. Sam bit his hand without warning and wouldn't let go. My mum turned the light on and saw Sam literally hanging off my Dad's hand and in the end she had to pry his jaws open to get him off. They put this incident down to Dad startling Sam whilst he was asleep and after a trip to the A&E they thought nothing more of it, although Dad has been much more careful about not disturbing Sam when he's sleeping since.

My parents sought the help of a dog behaviourist who assessed Sam and gave a fair bit of advice about treating him like a human (??) in these situations and ensuring he knew it was not acceptable to behave aggressively. Her advice only made things worse so my parents started trying to train him with his food aggression themselves as that was when he was proving most dangerous to the family. They followed the advice of another behaviourist but in the process of training my Mum was bitten 4 times and Sam flew for other members of the family dozens of times whenever anyone so much as walked within 1 metre of him. The situation became so bad that the family were afraid of him when he was eating.

Sam also started displaying signs of aggression when being groomed or when being given attention by more than one person at a time and the behaviourist suggested it may be fear aggression. Sam was taken to live with a "pack" of other dogs for 2 weeks and also lived with the behaviourist for a week to see if some of his fearfulness and unbalanced aggression could be unlearned.
Unfortunately, he came back no different.

Things have suddenly taken a very serious turn though, these issues were always an ongoing concern but about 3 weeks ago Sam was taken to the vets for his vaccinations as he was going into kennels. 
He was like an untamed beast at the vets.. he flew for anyone who came near him and when the vet did eventually muzzle him he was frothing at the mouth, his eyes rolled back in his head and he literally was snarling and writhing like something possessed.
The vets were shocked at how serious his reaction was but once he was home he was okay again and he went into kennels for a week with no more serious problems. However, my Dad collected him just over a week ago and since then the real issues have started.

Sam has become incredibly unpredictable in the last week or so. He's strongly bonded to my Dad but apparently is now growling at my Dad for no reason several times a day. Not only that but he has now taken to actually approaching my Dad and growling at him, for example whilst my Dad is sat watching TV.
Sam was left in the house for half an hour on Tuesday whilst Dad went to the shop and when he came back Sam wouldn't let him in the house, he guarded the front door and flew at him everytime he tried to get into the house. As soon as Sam is given a command (such as lie down) he snaps out of his aggression and follows the command, except when he's actually biting, then there's nothing anyone can do to make him let go.

It's got to the point where my Dad is having to shut Sam in another room because he will literally just walk up to my Dad and growl at him when Dad is minding his own business.

Thinking there could be an underlying health issue my parents took Sam to the vet this morning at 10am. The vets know from past experience that Sam is aggressive towards them and had advance warning. As a result they chose to see Sam in the car park first in order to muzzle him in a neutral environment before taking him inside for examination. Unfortunately before the vet could muzzle him Sam flew for him and bit him on the leg and wouldn't let go and has unfortunately done some quite serious damage to the vet. 

The vet said it is the worst case of aggression he has come across in the last 10 years. He has suggested X-Rays and and MRI to see if there's a health issue to blame but has said that because Sam has had unpredictable aggressive tendancies for a good couple of years now that he's not convinced there'll be much they can do for him if it's a health issue.
My parents just called me in tears and said that they're now so afraid that Sam is going to seriously hurt one of the family or a stranger, especially after witnessing his attack at the vets this morning, that they're considering having him put down.

They're calling another behaviorist who specialises in aggression and they're also seeking the help of border collie rescue but they're now so afraid of Sam that they've had to lock him up in a room. 

I don't know if anyone has any suggestions but please, please if you can suggest anyone who could help them then please get in touch. 
It's looking very bad for Sam right now and everyone is heartbroken that things have come to this but my parents are terrified that if something isn't done now then Sam is going to hurt someone else and their hand will be forced.

Please help, we're absolutely desperate


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## Wiz201

I sympathise with your situation and you want to try and help him, but if he's had this aggression nearly all his life, it might be very difficult to train it out of him. I think in this situation PTS is the best option, sorry.


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## Guest

I am so sorry...
As you know, this is very serious, and I cant see anyone fining fault in your parents choosing to PTS this dog.

If they choose not to PTS, the first thing that needs to be done is to desensitize this dog to a basket muzzle and have him wear it any time he leaves the house for any reason. 

The other first thing that needs to be done is to contact a qualified credentialed behavioralist. Other folks will have to help you with that as I am not in the UK. From the sounds of it in your post, the other behavioralists frankly sound like quacks. Treating a dog like a human has nothing to do with resource guarding and fear aggression, and putting a fearful dog in a pack of dogs is not going to do anything to make the home situation better as even if the dog does show a change in behavior, he will revert right back after leaving the pack. Im sorry to say, but it sounds like these charlatans made your dog far worse than if he had just seen someone who knew what they were doing right off the bat.

Collies can be very intense dogs, my other question to you would be how much mental and physical stimulation is this dog getting? What kind of opportunities does he have to blow off steam both emotional and physical?

What food is this guy eating? 

Did the vet get to draw blood on the last visit? He needs to at the very least have his thyroid checked before moving on to MRIs and X-rays. I dont think a medical issue is the complete answer, but it might be part of the puzzle. 
Generally when things get this far gone, there are several factors going on.

HTH


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## Twiggy

I'm really sorry for all concerned as this is a very serious situation.

Are you in the UK and if so whereabouts? I'm thinking that maybe someone on this forum may know a reputable collie behavourist in your area.


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## newfiesmum

Sorry to say it, but this dog sounds to me as though he is mentally ill. Is there such a thing among dogs, I mean that has no physical cause? I am thinking about people with serious mental illnesses, such as schizophrenia?

Fear aggression does not really apply if he is attacking the one person he has always trusted, i.e. your dad. 

Not something you would normally hear me say, but in this case I think the dog would be better off put to sleep. He is obviously not at all happy and has unknown and imaginery fears that nobody can even guess at.

I have read many times that no puppy is naturally aggressive, but it sounds to me as though this dog has always had these tendencies.

I do feel for this poor dog and for your poor parents.


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## sarie

Thanks guys 

They called me about an hour ago to say they've been in touch with a behaviourist who works with a fellow called John Rogerson. Apparently he's renowned nationwide but in the past they've been unable to seek out a consultation because he's quite a distance from them and the vet would only refer them to a behaviourist they know of and have worked with in the past.
However, this time the vet has agreed to refer to anyone my parents like because the situation has become so serious. 
The reason they have to go through the vets referral process is to claim on their insurance for their behavioural costs.

The behaviourist they've spoken to has insisted on coming to their house to visit Sam in his own environment but he has already expressed concerns that Sam's unpredictability sounds like it could be, at least in part, down to a mental issue potentially caused by something that even a behaviourist may not be able to train him out of. He's suggested potentially a brain tumour or a brain disorder of some kind. He's told my parents he certainly doesn't want them to give up on Sam just yet but he'd like to come and assess him. 
He's also suggested a workup at the vets with bloods and an MRI.
Again, as Sam is insured it makes it easier to go ahead and get anything done that needs doing to see if there's a solution to this as cost isn't an issue.
I personally agree that the past behaviourists were totally useless, as do my parents. Each one had very different views to the other and they all seemed to implement totally useless action plans that have only served to make things worse and prolong the issue.

I'm not sure what Sam is eating, a mix of wet food with dried mixer twice a day I know that much but I'm not sure which food it is they're giving him these days.

As for exercise and mental stimulation, I have warned my Dad a number of times that Sam doesn't get enough for his breed. He gets about 2 hours a day at the beach chasing frisbees and he gets a bit of one on one training about once a week or when Dad feels like it but that's about it. The rest of the time he has free run of the house and the garden but I don't think it's enough for a collie.
Our previous Collie Ben had far more stimulation but he was brought up in a family environment with us kids to keep him occupied and attended proper training classes and agility for years as he never had any severe issues with other dogs like Sam.

Sam is incredibly bright, it takes under 10 minutes to train him to do basic commands and they stick with him. I taught him Heel in under half an hour when he was about 6 months old and he still knows the command even now. 
Collies are obviously incredibly intelligent but even Ben took at least a few hours to learn a new trick whereas Sam just picks stuff up immediately.
I personally think it's a real shame that my parents got him.. I think he'd have made an absolutely super working dog as he's such a quick learner and so eager to please but unfortunately I doubt very much they'd be able to find a farmer who would take him on now as he's already 3 years old.

The vets haven't done any blood work on Sam yet or any tests of any kind.

It's still not looking good for Sam but at least my parents have decided to pursue a decent behaviourist who specialises in serious aggression cases and are also going to pursue medical tests. If they have to have him PTS for public safety then they've said they at least want to know they've exhausted every other option too but they have also said they can't live in a house with a dog who wants to attack them indefinitely either.

I've seen dogs growl and snap when put in uncomfortable situations before but I've never personally witnessed a dog that just comes up to you and bites without provocation. I walked past him when he was in the hallway at my parents last year and he appeared to be sleeping then suddenly just jumped up and started snarling at me with his hackles up. Thing is, as soon as I told him to lie down and he immediately did and then looked really sheepish as if he didn't know what he'd just done.

Twiggy, my parents are located in Alnwick in Northumberland.


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## lemmsy

ouesi said:


> I am so sorry...
> As you know, this is very serious, and I cant see anyone fining fault in your parents choosing to PTS this dog.
> 
> If they choose not to PTS, the first thing that needs to be done is to desensitize this dog to a basket muzzle and have him wear it any time he leaves the house for any reason.
> 
> The other first thing that needs to be done is to contact a qualified credentialed behavioralist. Other folks will have to help you with that as I am not in the UK. From the sounds of it in your post, the other behavioralists frankly sound like quacks. Treating a dog like a human has nothing to do with resource guarding and fear aggression, and putting a fearful dog in a pack of dogs is not going to do anything to make the home situation better as even if the dog does show a change in behavior, he will revert right back after leaving the pack. Im sorry to say, but it sounds like these charlatans made your dog far worse than if he had just seen someone who knew what they were doing right off the bat.
> 
> Collies can be very intense dogs, my other question to you would be how much mental and physical stimulation is this dog getting? What kind of opportunities does he have to blow off steam both emotional and physical?
> 
> What food is this guy eating?
> 
> Did the vet get to draw blood on the last visit? He needs to at the very least have his thyroid checked before moving on to MRIs and X-rays. I dont think a medical issue is the complete answer, but it might be part of the puzzle.
> Generally when things get this far gone, there are several factors going on.
> 
> HTH


Would echo what Ouesi says here.

Get a full thyroid panel done (Dr Dodds at hemopet.com is excellent for this), then MRI's and x-rays. 
Ask them to sedate him and do them all at once, if possible. Then at least it'll be less stress for the dog and all concerned.

Definitely get hold of a decent muzzle. 
Lurcher racing muzzles are often a good fit for collies. 
There is also the baskerville ultra muzzle, which is particularly good for feeding treats through.

Make sure you desensitize him to it, so he is comfortable wearing it rather than just plonking it on him.

Make sure that the behaviourist you use is not anyone who spouts dominance methods and putting the dog in his place. Dominance theory has been debunked time and time again and it's application to a case like this one could be particularly devastating. 
A good place to seach for behaviourists in the UK is via either the APBC, COAPE or APDT.

In the meantime, make sure you set up a safe space for the dog to take refuge in. He's obviously a very stressed out boy ATM.

All the best


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## kat&molly

I dont have any advice, but hope there is a medical reason thats fixable for all of this.Sounds like your parents have put up with a lot, Good Luck.


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## PennyGC

ok given the scenario the pup was probably better leaving the farm at 6 weeks than left with no socialisation... did your parents see the pups mother and father? I would suggest that perhaps this is either a genetic problem (ie from ill tempered parents) or is a health issue (brain tumour) and the former will be very difficult to resolve.

as for 'stimulations' to be honest it sounds like the dog has plenty of stimulation - 2 hours a day plus training and has been to agility etc... that should be more than enough even for a bright collie. They can have too much stimulation and also need to learn how to relax.

I hope the new behaviourist can offer something - otherwise I fear that there is only one option, that's to have the dog pts, not easy, but for the best if its a brain tumour.

it may be a food issue - I had a pup who was totally out of (self control) as a pup - would fly at me, biting etc... when I switched from high concentrate puppy food to tinned tripe and mixer the aggression stopped instantly. I then heard of a number of pups with similar problems - mostly it stopped when put onto adult food. More tricky if it continues into adult hood but there may be a sensitivity to something.


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## Guest

newfiesmum said:


> Fear aggression does not really apply if he is attacking the one person he has always trusted, i.e. your dad.


I think it could depending on what the previous behavioralists recommended the dad do as far as training. It sounds like a really smart dog, and smarter dogs are the ones who are going to anticipate, read the smallest nuances of body language, and develop superstitious behaviors (which is a known fall-out of using punishment-based techniques, flooding, etc.). 
If this dog has decided a certain movement, flick of the eyebrow, change in breathing pattern, whatever, predicts punishment, it could most definitely cause him to lash out for apparently no reason.

Its not out of the realm of possibilities that there is a mental disorder, tumor, or other medical issue going on. But given what the OP has written, my suspicions are that this dog has learned through past treatment to default to aggression. Its likely there is a combination of factors going on.

Are behavioralists at all regulated in the UK - I know here they are not. Anyone can hang a shingle and call themselves whatever they want - and ruin your dog for life


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## newfiesmum

ouesi said:


> I think it could depending on what the previous behavioralists recommended the dad do as far as training. It sounds like a really smart dog, and smarter dogs are the ones who are going to anticipate, read the smallest nuances of body language, and develop superstitious behaviors (which is a known fall-out of using punishment-based techniques, flooding, etc.).
> If this dog has decided a certain movement, flick of the eyebrow, change in breathing pattern, whatever, predicts punishment, it could most definitely cause him to lash out for apparently no reason.
> 
> Its not out of the realm of possibilities that there is a mental disorder, tumor, or other medical issue going on. But given what the OP has written, my suspicions are that this dog has learned through past treatment to default to aggression. Its likely there is a combination of factors going on.
> 
> *Are behavioralists at all regulated in the UK - I know here they are not. Anyone can hang a shingle and call themselves whatever they want - and ruin your dog for life [/*QUOTE]
> 
> Unfortunately no they are not. As you say, anybody can call themself a behaviourist or trainer, without so much as a short course.
> 
> You could be right in your assessment. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that the dog has become afraid of the people who should be trusting because of some outdated idiot.
> 
> I actually don't know where half these "trainers" get their daft ideas from, since a lot of them seem to go against pure common sense.


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## sarie

> Unfortunately no they are not. As you say, anybody can call themself a behaviourist or trainer, without so much as a short course.
> 
> You could be right in your assessment. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that the dog has become afraid of the people who should be trusting because of some outdated idiot.
> 
> I actually don't know where half these "trainers" get their daft ideas from, since a lot of them seem to go against pure common sense.


He's not seen a behaviourist for a while now though and he doesn't get punished by my parents. If he misbehaves they give him a command usually and that's all they need to do. Lie down being the most common one.
Why would he suddenly just change drastically within a few weeks?

Some behaviours could be down to fear such as him snapping when he's groomed or when crowded by multiple people but if he's afraid why would he just start walking up to my dad and growling at him when my dad isn't even in the same room as him? That's what's thrown all of us.. this recent aggression isn't like his other aggression which seemed to only occur in predictable situations, this is random unprovoked aggression where Sam is actually seeking out my parents and having a go at them. That doesn't seem like fear to me as surely fearful dogs try to avoid a situation they don't like rather than stir one up?

The vet attack this morning was predictable, we all knew Sam would have a go which is why we pre-warned the vets and had them attempt to muzzle him in a neutral place, but nobody expected an attack of such ferocity, the vet included. A cornered dog is likely to growl and snap but to literally lunge and hang onto someone and refuse to let go seems like an outright offensive attack. 
The vet said the fearful dogs he's encountered in his career usually cower with their ears back, tail between their legs and lick their lips and growl at him and will snap if he pushes it but he's never had a fearful dog fly at him like Sam did this morning.

Definitely not impressed by some of the past advice they've had from "behaviourists" though.. they clearly had no idea what they were doing.


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## Guest

Didnt his behavior change drastically after spending a week at the kennels?


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## Guest

newfiesmum said:


> Unfortunately no they are not. As you say, anybody can call themself a behaviourist or trainer, without so much as a short course.


Thats what I was afraid of...


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## Jugsmalone

sarie said:


> He's not seen a behaviourist for a while now though and he doesn't get punished by my parents. If he misbehaves they give him a command usually and that's all they need to do. Lie down being the most common one.
> Why would he suddenly just change drastically within a few weeks?
> 
> Some behaviours could be down to fear such as him snapping when he's groomed or when crowded by multiple people but if he's afraid why would he just start walking up to my dad and growling at him when my dad isn't even in the same room as him? That's what's thrown all of us.. this recent aggression isn't like his other aggression which seemed to only occur in predictable situations, this is random unprovoked aggression where Sam is actually seeking out my parents and having a go at them. That doesn't seem like fear to me as surely fearful dogs try to avoid a situation they don't like rather than stir one up?
> 
> The vet attack this morning was predictable, we all knew Sam would have a go which is why we pre-warned the vets and had them attempt to muzzle him in a neutral place, but nobody expected an attack of such ferocity, the vet included. A cornered dog is likely to growl and snap but to literally lunge and hang onto someone and refuse to let go seems like an outright offensive attack.
> The vet said the fearful dogs he's encountered in his career usually cower with their ears back, tail between their legs and lick their lips and growl at him and will snap if he pushes it but he's never had a fearful dog fly at him like Sam did this morning.
> 
> Definitely not impressed by some of the past advice they've had from "behaviourists" though.. they clearly had no idea what they were doing.


There are two responses with fear aggression flight or fight. From what you describe your dog felt corned with no where to go to get away so he choose to fight.

I hope you are able to get some help for the dog.


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## sarie

ouesi said:


> Didn't his behavior change drastically after spending a week at the kennels?


Yes, although he's stayed at the same kennels numerous times in the past without any issues but that's not to say something hasn't happened at the kennels that has triggered his behaviour but he has always had aggressive tendancies, just never so unpredictable and never towards my Dad.
The kennels don't really do much with the dogs though, all they do is feed him and take him out for a walk once a day and we know the staff there and they don't abuse the dogs so I'm not sure what they could've done to trigger something like this :/

I remember last year when I visited my parents I came out of my bedroom at about 1am to use the bathroom and Sam was walking past my door as I came out. He froze as I was coming out and you could see his eyes change, he gave me a really really intense look. I froze too and as I started to back away he started growling at me and baring his teeth and edging towards me.
I tried to calmly say his name as I backed away and it did nothing and then I shouted "Sam! Where's your ball?!" and he immediately snapped out of it and started wagging his tail and came up and nutted me in the legs then ran off to find his ball. This is the kind of previous aggression we've witnessed, although he's never ever done this sort of thing towards my Dad until now.


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## suewhite

One of my Collies had always been snappy but managable, but he did get alot worse and before taking the behaviorist route we took him to a veterinary hospital for an MRI and it was found that he had a brain tumour,so to be honest thats what I would do first.I have also taken another Collie to Roger Mugford and he was brilliant.


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## sarie

suewhite said:


> One of my Collies had always been snappy but managable, but he did get alot worse and before taking the behaviorist route we took him to a veterinary hospital for an MRI and it was found that he had a brain tumour,so to be honest thats what I would do first.I have also taken another Collie to Roger Mugford and he was brilliant.


Thanks Sue, I'll make sure my parents definitely go ahead with the MRI and I'll give them Roger Mugford's name too


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## lemmsy

sarie said:


> Thanks Sue, I'll make sure my parents definitely go ahead with the MRI and I'll give them Roger Mugford's name too


Before/or at the same time as they MRI get a full thyroid panel done.

Border-line hypo/hyperthyroidism can cause abnormal behaviour, including aggression (both exacerbating reactions to predictable triggers and also uncharacteristic unpredicatibility). Often dogs suffering are not diagnosed because they do not display the clinical symptoms for hypothyroidism (example: weight gain, lethargy, hair loss) because, apparently they sometimes don't start appearing until up to 70% of the thyroid function has been damaged.  Nevertheless their condition as it is, is enough to cause considerable changes in their behaviour.
Dr Dodds at hemopet labs in America performs 5 panel tests that test T4, Free T4, T3, Free T3 and TGAA. In the UK it is not possible to have such a wide panel done and as such look at the whole picture, so many dogs do not get a diagnosis. 
Dr Dodds lists the results in comparison with general ranges and personal specific ranges. 
Sometimes a dog may read just within general ranges but their results will be abnormal according to their personal ranges and that is enough to get them a prescription to try and bring things back to normal levels.

I've explained all of the above rather crudely but Dr Dodds is a canine thyroid condition expert, so it is highly recommend that you send samples to her IMO.

She's recently published a book about the canine thyroid epidemic. 
Check out this article she wrote also:
Thyroid Can Alter Behavior, by Dr. Jean Dodds - Alaskan Malamute Health


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## sarie

Thank you! Makes for very interesting reading, I'll certainly get them to check for a Thyroid condition too. I'm forwarding all this information on to my parents


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## suewhite

This is a bit more info

http://www.petbc.org.uk/rogermugford.html


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## Guest

sarie said:


> Yes, although he's stayed at the same kennels numerous times in the past without any issues but that's not to say something hasn't happened at the kennels that has triggered his behaviour but he has always had aggressive tendancies, just never so unpredictable and never towards my Dad.
> The kennels don't really do much with the dogs though, all they do is feed him and take him out for a walk once a day and we know the staff there and they don't abuse the dogs so I'm not sure what they could've done to trigger something like this :/


Theres really no way to know for sure what the dog is thinking or how the dog perceives any given situation. We can at best make educated guesses based on the behavior the dog displays. (Clearly some more educated than others.)

The thing is, dogs make odd associations all the time. One of our danes once was playing with a toy, shaking it, and smacked her head quite hard on the coffee table. For some reason, she looked up right after the incident, and from then on was convinced that particular ceiling fan was not to be trusted. For the longest time she gave that fan a hard look every time she walked in to the room.
Some training tools lend themselves to weird associations more than others. Theres an interesting article by a very well-known trainer about the sort of superstitious behaviors you can get from using the collars we cannot mention here. And this is from someone who does use them, so he is speaking from first hand experience. 
It might be worth giving the kennels a call and asking how his stay went. Id also ask how they manage barking in the kennels, some places wont tell you what they do unless you specifically ask 



sarie said:


> I remember last year when I visited my parents I came out of my bedroom at about 1am to use the bathroom and Sam was walking past my door as I came out. He froze as I was coming out and you could see his eyes change, he gave me a really really intense look. I froze too and as I started to back away he started growling at me and baring his teeth and edging towards me.
> I tried to calmly say his name as I backed away and it did nothing and then I shouted "Sam! Where's your ball?!" and he immediately snapped out of it and started wagging his tail and came up and nutted me in the legs then ran off to find his ball. This is the kind of previous aggression we've witnessed, although he's never ever done this sort of thing towards my Dad until now.


To me this points to more of a behavioral issue than a medical one. If he were having focal seizures for example, shouting wheres your ball would have had no effect. Though definitely a medical issue like pain or thyroid disorder could most definitely exacerbate the behavioral issue.

I find it interesting that telling him to find his ball snapped him out of his state. There is a school of thought (that I tend to agree with) that says we create a conditioned emotional response with every cue we teach. If this dog has come to associate his name or certain commands or even a certain body posture with discomfort, then the opposite would also hold true that he would revert to a happier emotional state at hearing ball. 
I guess what Im saying is that this information bodes well for him and shows that counter conditioning might work very well for him.

In any case though, all Im doing is massive speculation (all any of us are really) so the best bet is someone who knows what theyre doing assessing this dog first hand.


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## totallypets

Have your parents tried any anxiety medication? From other posts on this forum I compiled a list of natural remedies available without prescription for anxiety in dogs. The links may not be the only or cheapest place to buy them and the order of the list is no indication of effectiveness.

Scullcap and valerian
Scullcap and Valerian Tablets for Dogs and Cats - Dorwest

KalmAid
http://www.nutri-science.net/pets/pdfs/KalmAid DL.pdf

Zylkene
Zylkène - For life&#39;s ups and downs

5HTP
5HTP Supplements | 5HTP Capsules | Holland & Barrett

Magnesium
Nupafeed Stress-Less for Dogs

Hilton Canine Tranquility Gold Herbal Solution
Supplement Solutions - Hilton Herbs Tranquility Canine

Doreen Paige Herbal Remedies - phone for advise on which one(s) will be best for your dog
Doreen Paige - Dog Grooming

Calm Down!
Calm Down! - CSJ Herbs for Dogs - CSJK9 Ltd.

Rescue Remedy

Walnut Oil

Using one of the above would probably be a good idea whilst getting Sam tested and waiting for the behaviorist appointment.


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## Grace_Lily

I'm afraid I don't feel experienced enough to offer advice, but didn't want to read and run.

I'm touched that your parents haven't given up on Sam, and really hope you find a cause of this which can be treated.


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## lizward

People will hate me for saying this but honestly this sounds like a major incident waiting to happen. Unless the full vet examination reveals something very obvious I think your parents are simply going to have to put their own safety, and ideed the safety of the general public, before the life of a dog.

Liz


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## Guest

I am also moved that your parents have tried so hard, for their dog. Big hugs to them. 

It does sound like a tumour, to me, brain, thyroid, perhaps effecting sight. . I've heard of such dogs often having tumours found. If you do have to PTS, can you see if there is anyone studying these areas or behaviours, to get the chance to study your dog? The verbal command seemed to snap back to normal behaviour, but the aggression is linked to your dog stalking your parents, to people approaching to help, to your dog seeming to see something in you, just standing at your bedroom door... It is all sight. Sight or hallucination? That change of expression in the eyes... I have experienced it, thankfully not in my dogs, and it really does spook. Perhaps it will be found that some part of the brain is too big or small... I feel so sad that such loyal and loving people have suffered so, and that a dog should be in such a mental state, to react so.

I think the blood tests should be done. I just feel so shocked and beyond help, READING ABOUT IT. 

Is there any form of dog schitzophrenia recorded? CAN it be established?

I genuinely feel it is beyond me to say anything to help. but my best wishes to you and your parents.


----------



## Malmum

This reminds me of a Malamute on another forum who's aggression suddenly worsened. Was all the owner could do to get a muzzle on him to get him to the vet to be PTS, poor boy was only 18 months old and just went crazy one night after a couple of weeks of showing aggression. A post mortom revealed a brain tumour. Was very sad as the owner was a regular on the forum and had posted about him sine he was eight weeks old.

If he were mine I would have him PTS I would worry he was in pain as brain tumours create terrible headaches from what patients have told me. I hope you manage to resolve this situation soon for everyones sake, especially Sams. xx


----------



## Jesse11

hope everything going well. good luck


----------



## sarie

Thanks everyone. They haven't tried any anxiety medication yet although he has been given sedatives in the past when he's had to go to the groomers, although even under sedation he managed to attack the groomer as she tried to muzzle him (this was in January) so he didn't get his grooming session and was taken home. I'll mention it to them.

I spoke to my parents again last night and they're in pieces, mum was sobbing and just kept saying she just can't bring herself to put down a young dog so full of life so they've agreed they're going to pursue all the medical tests so that at least if it comes to having him PTS they can reassure themselves knowing that they did the best for him.
They've got some pretty hardcore tranquilizers from the vets and they're going to basically knock him out via some tablets before he goes for his tests and try to muzzle him themselves so that he's already pretty out of it before he gets to the vets.

They spoke to the new behaviourist again last night and booked him to come and visit on July 19th but after talking to him in more detail mum says he mentioned that he has a dog who was so aggressive he was due to be PTS so he's taken a hands off approach and the dog lives with him now in kennels outside and is simply left to just do his own thing during the day loose on the farm. Mum told me that didn't fill her with confidence if he can't even cure his own dog of aggression so she's going to see if she can contact Roger Mugford (thanks Sue!). He's way down in Surrey so awfully far away from them but Mum said she'll do whatever it takes so if she has to take him all the way to Surrey then so be it. I just hope Roger Mugford will see them!

Unfortunately they rang their insurer (Argos) and it turns out Argos have recently pulled their cover for behavioural problems so unfortunately they're going to have to pay for a behaviourist themselves but they think the medical stuff should still be covered. Pretty disappointing as the behaviourist coming on July 19th wants £200 for his initial consultation as he has to travel an hour to get to them.

In the meantime, my parents are just trying to keep Sam tired by running him as much as possible and keeping him shut in another room when he's home with free run of the garden. It's all they can do for now.. they said just looking at him upsets them at the moment knowing the circumstances.

This is puppy Sam playing with his best friend Millie... who'd have known what his future held 






This is Sam now:


__
https://flic.kr/p/4901737791


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## newfiesmum

That dog is so handsome and so obviously well cared for, and I am saying that as someone who is not too keen on border collies. I am so touched by your parents' efforts for this dog, when so many people give up at the slightest hiccup.

I do so hope it is something medical that they can operate on. A brain tumour seems likely, and if that is the case and it can be safely removed, they will have their lovely pet back.

I just wanted to say to check your insurance policy carefully. If it states that it covers behaviourists and it is not due for renewal or anything, I think they will have to stand by it. They might have some clause about changing things without telling you, but it is worth a look.


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## suewhite

Hi,Been thinking about Sam and all of you since I read your post.My advise to your parents would to just stick to the medical side first the MRI that Ben had was done at a hospital after hours when the hospital had finished with it but that was 7 years ago and he had to be referred by our vet to a vet that was a specialist,just to give you some idea 7 years ago this cost £3780 in total to be honest once found he had a tumour I kept him to long and would never do it again as he eventually started having fits one after another.Roger Mugford is brilliant and fights for dogs that are so called dangerous dogs and are under a death sentence to watch him with really aggressive dogs is amazing, but afraid again this will cost a lot of money but you don't get told a load of rubbish.When we were dog training on our local common a man asked if he could stand and watch which he did for about 3 week twice a week then he advertised himself in the local paper as a dog trainer and behaviorist.I really wish Sam and your parents all the luck in the world,please would you keep me informed on how it goes.Suexx


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## sarie

Hey everyone, I'm sorry for not updating this thread and leaving it so long but it's been a traumatic year.

Sam was taken for tests but they proved inconclusive and no medical reason for his problems could be found. He was then taken to Barbara Sykes and also referred to a local dog behaviorist for further training and assistance. His diet was changed and he began a strict training regime with big changes made to his home life and the way he was handled.

Unfortunately his issues worsened and after he jammed his foot in a door at the family home his instinct was to assume the nearest person in the vicinity was responsible for the pain. This was unfortunately my heavily pregnant sister-in-law. He attacked her badly and without warning and she suffered some nasty injuries and fainted but thankfully made a full recovery after a few weeks and the baby was fine.

My parents were absolutely devastated and in a last ditch attempt to save his life they opted to keep him separate from visitors whilst undergoing intense behavioral training with the assistance of Barbara. However, about 5 months ago after a bath my Dad attempted to put his collar on and Sam flew into a frenzy, resulting in very serious wounds to my dad's hands that left him in hospital for two weeks where he had to undergo two rounds of surgery.

The hard decision was made to have Sam put to sleep but at the last minute a local farmer heard of his plight and stepped in and offered to give him a permanent outdoor home as a sheepdog.
The farmer was warned about Sam's unpredictable nature and was shown my Dad's injuries and given a full history. He was advised that he seemed to have an untrainable psychological issue and as such he was to be wary around him and have as little contact as possible and just give him a good working life. The farmer was adamant he could handle him and couldn't stand to see such a healthy young dog put to sleep so it was agreed he would take him on.
Unfortunately Sam lasted only 3 weeks with the farmer as the farmer grew very fond of him and as he didn't witness any signs of aggression he chose to bring Sam into his house. Sam unexpectedly attacked the farmer resulting in serious injuries and his final chance was blown.
The decision was made that every opportunity to help him had been exhausted and he was just too dangerous as the attacks were becoming more and more serious every time.

Subsequently my parents attended the farm and stayed with Sam as he was put to sleep. This was just over 2 months ago but they are in absolute bits. I spoke to my mum a couple of hours ago and she still cries every time she talks about him 

I'm about to start a new thread though as after 2 months of struggling with an empty house and trying to come to terms with their loss I think they're contemplating trying to move on as their hearts are empty without a dog in their lives.

RIP Sam, so sorry we couldn't help you to get better


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## jackapoo

Thats such very sad news. but you really did do everything you could for poor Sam, it just wasnt meant to be, my heartfelt sympathy to you and your parents. hope they soon feel able to move on from this and have some lovely times ahead with a new friend


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## Moobli

What an extremely heartbreaking tale. RIP Sam.

I was going to suggest (not realising the sad outcome) taking Sam for a herding instinct test and to see whether he would be a happier, less troubled dog as a working sheepdog, but clearly that didn't work out either.

You and your parents can console yourselves with the fact that you exhausted every avenue in trying to help Sam, but it sounds to me as though he had some genetic programming that was impossible to eliminate.

I am so sorry.


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## Moobli

Just out of interest, was Sam ISDS registered?


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## Sled dog hotel

I am so sorry, I hope that you and your parents though can rest assured that you did everything you could possibly do for him and gave him every last chance possible too.

So very sad, unfortuanate and heartbreaking as it is, sometimes we just have to accept that sometimes a dog will be broken beyond repair and there is nothing at all that can be done to help them in this life, and that the only thing left is to set them free and to be at rest.

Run forever free in sunshine fella.


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## sarie

Thanks everyone. Sam wasn't ISDS registered as far as I know.

Although my parents know they did everything in their power to help him they both feel extreme guilt at what had to be done. They feel like Sam trusted them to protect him and they betrayed his trust and no matter how much I talk to them about it neither one of them seems to be able to get over what they had to do.

I don't wish the situation on anyone, it's been absolutely heart breaking  I just hope that with time and perhaps with the right companion they'll be able to move on with their lives and accept what happened but never forget Sam.


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## Spellweaver

So sorry to hear your sad news - but thankfully poor Sam is at rest now, no longer plagued by whatever was making him like this. You and your family have done everything you can for him and given him every possible chance - a lot more than most would have done.

I know it's not going to be much consolation to you after the year you've just been through, but if there were more owners like you and your family around, the dog world would be a better place.


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## sarie

Thank you Spellweaver, that's very kind of you, I just wish what we did for him had been enough 

Here are some photos off Sam in his prime before the trouble started. 
RIP beautiful Sam. He had such a long tongue it used to poke out of his mouth all the time  xxx


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## Dogless

Lovely photos; RIP Sam.


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## lemmsy

So sorry to hear this sad news. 

I hope you don't mind me mentioning this; interested to see you consulted Barbara Sykes. I know she does alot for BC rescue and has written a book on aggression. I've read it but found it a bit old school personally and wasn't much of a fan. I know a few people who have met her, who assured me that she doesn't actually use aversives on the dogs though.
Totally understandable if you don't want to talk about/mention it, but wonder what sort of changes they implemented and handling changes and such? I hope you don't mind me asking. As I said before, if you do, I do apologize and mean no offence, just curiosity. 

It sounds as though pain was definitely an aspect that could have been having an affect on the severity of his reactions. Very hard to know or identify why this was medically, there will have been a reason but it's sometimes outside our human/veterinary science's capabilities to work out exactly why. 

Very hard for all concerned. Your parents should not feel guilty. I'll go one further and say that Sam was a very lucky dog to find himself with your parents. They put so much effort into him, were so patient and showed compassion where other owners wouldn't have been capable of looking past the behaviour they were seeing and seeing that they had a sick dog that needed help. 
Elsewhere Sam would not have known such understanding and love and would have been labelled "vicious" and passed on or PTS a long long time ago. 

I wish you all all the best and that with time your parents be able to look back at the happy memories of Sam and enjoy life with another canine companion too


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## Rottsmum

I have just read this entire thread through. Your parents (and you) should ABSOLUTELY NOT feel guilty in any way shape or form for having Sam PTS.

Contrary to other given opinions I do not believe that this was a behavioural problem, I think that the agression was the result of a worsening mental problem that poor Sam was living with. 

I applaud you and your parents for the love and effort that you all put into this poor boy and applaud you all even more for having the courage to do what needed to be done and for being with him when he was PTS.

I do a lot of work for rescue and I have a problem dog myself, but not every dog can be saved and not every dog should be, as much for themselves as for the liability that they become.

It is heart breaking when a dog needs to be PTS because of these types of issues but please know that you have set him free from whatever illness he was in the grip of. Dogs that live with these types of problems are not happy dogs. 

What the farmer and your parents did was the ultimate act of love for Sam and I truly believe that if he could he would thank them for it. I wish you all the joy of a new dog in your lives to heal the hole in your hearts.

Run free Sam, no more pain


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## Leanne77

Just read all of this post for the first time - such a sad story for poor Sam and your parents. I think your parents went above and beyond their duty to help Sam so i'm sorry it's ended this way.

RIP Sam, you were clearly a very handsome chap xx


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## AnnC

As a Collie lover and owner of two young collies I can sympathise so much with the agony your parents went through and want to say how much I admire their bravery and their commitment to Sam.

My last BC who I had PTS last year, for the last couple of years of life was aggressive, to the point when we were on holiday in our caravan [which he loved] it was taking your life in your hands to go past him in the darkness and I ended up being bit several times. In the end for peace of mind he had to sleep out in the car at night.

That was the last time we were able to use the caravan when we had him.

I think your parents deserve such accolade for being so committed to Sam and his welfare.

I feel sure something was seriously wrong, sadly it couldn't be found which might have given your parents some relief from their guilt and sadness.

But nobody could have been more committed to a dogs welfare and whilst I totally understand their feelings of failure and sadness at such a young dog having to be destroyed they should take comfort in the fact that there are few people who would have tried as hard as they did to work through his problems.


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## Picklelily

So sorry I don't think your parents could have done anything more.

You have given Sam love and a final peace.


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## leashedForLife

sarie said:


> My parents'... 3-YO BC, Sam [has issues].
> They previously had another collie who lived to 13-YO without any problems ... a loving well-rounded dog, so they
> have had prior experience bringing up & living with collies.
> 
> Sam came from working parents *and was sold... at just 6-WO*. The farmer wanted rid of him & wasn't prepared
> to keep him longer than that.
> 
> *From an early age [he's] shown [aggro] toward people & other dogs*. He attended puppy parties as a young pup
> &... dog training classes from an early age. From around 8-MO he also attended agility. Unfortunately,
> *he developed some quite serious dog-aggro* despite quite a bit of socialisation from an early age & *became
> such a liability... that my mum refused to take him [to classes] anymore & aged about 18-MO, he stopped
> attending both* [training & agility].
> 
> *Sam also [showed RG over food] toward my parents from a very early age as well as protective aggression
> with certain rooms in the house [&] his bed, from around 8-MO.*
> 
> Sam has a bed in my parents' room... & one night my dad reached down... to retrieve a pillow he'd dropped
> from the bed & didn't realise Sam was lying nearby. Sam bit his hand without warning & wouldn't let go.
> My mum turned the light on & saw Sam literally hanging off my Dad's hand ...she had to pry his jaws open
> to get him off. They put this incident down to Dad startling Sam whilst he was asleep & after a trip to
> the A&E, they thought nothing more of it, although Dad has been much more careful about not disturbing
> Sam when he's sleeping since.
> 
> My parents sought the help of a dog behaviourist who assessed Sam and gave a fair bit of advice about
> *treating him like a human (??) in these situations & ensuring he knew it was not acceptable to behave aggressively.
> Her advice only made things worse* so my parents started trying [B-Mod re] his food aggression
> themselves, as that was when he was proving most dangerous to the family.
> 
> They followed the advice of another behaviourist but in the process of training, *my Mum was bitten
> 4 times & Sam flew [at] other family-members dozens of times whenever anyone so much as walked within
> 1 metre of him. The situation became so bad that the family were afraid of him when he was eating.*


Why didn't they CRATE him for meals? 
Simple management is a good preventive.

- he left his dam & sibs far too young.
- he has lousy bite-inhibition & no tolerance for frustration.
- he's chronically worried about threats: his food, his space, himself...


sarie said:


> Sam also [showed aggro] when being groomed or... *given attn by more than one person at a time*...


MORE THAN ONE PERSON is flooding any anxious or nonsocial dog. 


sarie said:


> ...the behaviourist suggested it may be fear aggro.


Over 85% of all the aggro cases seen by vet-behaviorists in the USA are rooted in fear, per a survey 
of their members by AVSAB. This statement by the consultant is accurate, insofar as it goes, 
but hardly helpful - it suggests nothing to help the dog get over the fears.


sarie said:


> *Sam was taken to live with a "pack" of other dogs for 2 weeks, & also lived with the behaviourist for a week
> to see if some of his fearfulness and unbalanced aggression could be unlearned.*
> Unfortunately, he came back no different.


:yikes:


sarie said:


> ...these issues were... an ongoing concern, but 3-weeks ago Sam was taken to the vets for his vax [before] kennels.
> He was like an untamed beast... flew at anyone who came near him & when the vet did eventually muzzle him
> he was frothing at the mouth, his eyes rolled back in his head & literally [snarled & writhed] like something
> possessed. The vets were shocked... but once home, he was okay again & went into kennels for a week
> with no more serious problems. However, my Dad collected him [10 days back] & since then, the real
> issues have started.
> 
> He's become incredibly unpredictable in the last week... He's strongly bonded to my Dad but apparently is
> now growling at my Dad for no reason several times a day.... he's [also] approaching my Dad & growling...
> for ex, whilst my Dad is sat watching TV.
> 
> Sam was left in the house for 30-mins on Tuesday whilst Dad went to the shop and when he came back,
> Sam wouldn't let him in the house, he guarded the front door & flew at him everytime he tried to get into
> the house. As soon as he's given a command (such as lie down) he snaps out of his aggro & [complies],
> except when he's actually biting, then... nothing ...can ...make him let go.
> 
> ...Dad [has] to shut Sam in another room... he'll literally just walk up to my Dad & growl at him when
> Dad is minding his own business.
> 
> Thinking there could be an underlying health issue my parents took Sam to the vet this morning at 10-am.
> The vets know from past experience that Sam is aggro & had advance warning. As a result they chose
> to see him in the car park... to muzzle him in a neutral environment... ...before the vet could muzzle him
> Sam... bit him on the leg & wouldn't let go [doing] quite serious damage to the vet.
> 
> The vet said it is the worst case of aggression he has come across in the last 10 years. He's suggested X-Rays
> & MRI to see if there's a health issue, but said because Sam has had unpredictable aggressive tendencies
> for a... couple of years now, he's not convinced there'll be much they can do for him if it's a health issue.
> 
> My parents [are] now so afraid that Sam [will] seriously hurt one of the family or a stranger, especially
> after witnessing his attack at the vets this morning, that they're considering having him put down.
> 
> They're calling another behaviorist *who specialises in aggro & seeking help from BC rescue*,
> but [Sam is living locked] up, in a room.





ouesi said:


> ... I cant see anyone finding fault in your parents choosing to PTS this dog.
> 
> If they choose not to PTS, the first thing that needs to be done is to desensitize this dog to
> a basket muzzle & have him wear it any time he leaves the house for any reason.
> 
> The other first thing that needs to be done is to contact a qualified credentialed behavioralist.
> Other folks will have to help you with that as I am not in the UK. From the sounds of it in your post,
> the other behavioralists frankly sound like quacks. Treating a dog like a human has nothing to do
> with RG & fear aggro, & putting a fearful dog in a "pack" of dogs is not going to do anything to make the home
> situation better as even if the dog does show a change in behavior, he will revert right back after leaving
> the "pack". Im sorry to say,
> but it sounds like these charlatans made your dog far worse than if he had just seen someone who knew
> what they were doing, right off the bat.
> 
> Collies can be very intense dogs, my other Q would be how much mental and physical stimulation is this dog getting?
> What kind of opportunities does he have to blow off steam both emotional and physical?
> 
> What food is this guy eating?
> 
> Did the vet get to draw blood on the last visit? He needs to at the very least have his thyroid checked before
> moving on to MRIs and X-rays. I dont think a medical issue is the complete answer, but it might be part of the puzzle.
> Generally when things get this far gone, there are several factors going on.
> 
> HTH





newfiesmum said:


> ...this dog sounds to me as though he's mentally ill. Is there such a thing among dogs, I mean that has no
> physical cause? I'm thinking about... serious mental illnesses, such as schizophrenia?
> [SNIP]
> 
> I have read many times that no puppy is naturally aggressive, but it sounds to me as though this dog
> has always had these tendencies.


Early separation can cause very serious aggression or extreme fears & defensive behavior, as well as 
poor or nonexistent bite-inhibition & an inability to attach - similar to "orphan syndrome" or foster-child syndrome.


sarie said:


> ...they've [reached] a behaviourist [with] John Rogerson.
> ... the vet has agreed to refer to anyone my parents like because the situation [is] so serious.
> ... The behaviourist [will come] to their house to visit Sam in his own environment but has already
> expressed concerns that Sam's unpredictability sounds like it could be, at least in part, a mental issue
> potentially caused by something [not amenable to B-Mod]... a brain tumour or a brain disorder of some kind.
> 
> ...he certainly doesn't want them to give up on Sam just yet but he'd like to come and assess him.
> He's also suggested a workup at the vets with bloods & an MRI ...cost isn't an issue.
> ...the past behaviourists were totally useless... Each had very different views ... & seemed to implement totally
> useless action plans that... only served to make things worse and prolong the issue.
> 
> ...Sam [eats] a mix of wet & dried mixer twice a day...
> 
> As for exercise & mental stimulation, [he] doesn't get enough for his breed. ...about 2 hrs a day at the beach
> chasing frisbees &... bit of one on one training about once a week or when Dad feels like it, but that's about it.
> The rest of the time [it's] free run of the house & garden, but I don't think it's enough for a collie.
> 
> Our previous Collie... had far more stimulation but was brought up in a family environment with kids
> to keep him occupied & attended proper training classes & agility for years as he never had any severe issues
> with other dogs [as] Sam [does].
> 
> Sam is incredibly bright, it takes under 10 minutes to train him to do basic commands & they stick with him.
> I taught him Heel in under half an hour when he was about 6-MO & he still knows the command even now.
> ...even Ben took at least a few hours to learn a new trick whereas Sam just picks stuff up immediately.
> 
> I personally think it's a real shame that my parents got him.. I think he'd have made an absolutely super
> working dog as he's such a quick learner and so eager to please but unfortunately I doubt very much
> they'd be able to find a farmer who'd take him on, as he's already 3 years old.
> 
> The vets haven't done any blood work on Sam yet or any tests of any kind.
> 
> ...my parents have decided to pursue a decent behaviourist who specialises in serious aggression cases & [will]
> pursue medical tests. If they have to have him PTS for public safety then they've said they at least want to
> know they've exhausted every other option... they've also said they can't live ...with a dog who wants to attack
> them indefinitely either.
> 
> I've seen dogs growl and snap when in uncomfortable circs before, but I've never personally witnessed a dog
> that just comes up to you & bites without provocation. I walked past him when he was in the hallway at
> my parents last year & he appeared to be sleeping, then... jumped up & started snarling at me with
> his hackles up. ...as soon as I told him to lie down, he immediately did & looked really sheepish as if
> he didn't know what he'd just done.


Focal seizures 
startled & defensive 
hypothyroid



PennyGC said:


> ...the pup was probably *better leaving the farm at 6 weeks than left with no socialisation*...
> did your parents see the pup's [dam & sire]? I'd suggest... either a genetic problem (i-e, from ill tempered
> parents) or... a health issue (brain tumour) and the former will be very difficult to resolve.


 i could not disagree MORE about removing a pup early - it can cause all sorts of behavioral havoc, 
& i've seen it too often to ever countenance it.

Waiting another 2-weeks would still leave the pup the usual MONTH of primary socialization, 
& from 12-WO to 6-MO for secondary socialization.

it's possible that one parent was an aggressive dog, but removing a pup before 56-DO can only add 
to the risk of aggression developing or worsening - it won't improve or reduce it.

i'd definitely include a 5-way or possibly 6-way thyroid panel, READ BY either Dodds' HemoPet lab, 
or the Michigan State Univ vet-lab, both in the USA. MSU has the world's largest breed-specific database 
for thyroid values; U need free AND bound T-3 & T-4, plus TSH & possibly Anti-Nuclear Antibody [ANA].

Using OTC calmatives cannot hurt, & may help - 
See this post for What, When, How, etc:
Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - dog body-language - and why it matters so much...


----------



## glenm

I didn't see this thread the first time round, but have just read through all of it.

I would just like to say that you and your parents did everything you could in a very difficult situation, and I'm very sorry to hear of your loss.

RIP Sam


----------



## sarie

Thanks everyone, I'll pass on your kind words to my parents as they're really struggling with the guilt and they genuinely feel like they should have done more but I don't personally know what else they could have done. My Dad just keeps saying he feels the answer is out there somewhere and he failed Sam by not finding it in time.

With so much mixed advice from behaviourists, trainers and vets it's no surprise that dog owners struggle so much to do the right thing. My parents tried their best but they had trainers who thought they were behaviourists, behaviourists who strongly felt "pack" training was the right thing to do, behaviourists who thought the best treatment was to avoid the problem entirely by just avoiding situations that could cause him to attack, behaviourists who believed in positive reinforcement and vets who insisted that the moment a dog bites it should be PTS.

Personally from spending time with Sam I believe he had a mental illness, not a behavioural problem and I believe that there was nothing more that could be done for him. 
He did have behavioural issues that's a definite, some of which were quite serious in fact, but I don't believe those issues were what led to the serious sustained attacks. 
I believe some of his food related attacks were behavioural and some of his bites during grooming were fear related but I personally feel that the random and severe attacks that took place were unrelated to his behavioural issues. 
Having witnessed them first hand it seemed as though Sam were transported to another state entirely. 
There was often no trigger and he'd fly into a frenzy with his eyes rolling back in his head and there was very little you could do to stop the attacks once they started. They were often sustained with him coming back for more over the course of a few minutes.
Once they were over he would seem confused and terrified about what had just happened and would often retreat to a safe place and stay out of sorts for a few days following the incident. 

As a family we've learned an awful lot from what happened and although it's of no use to Sam now, hopefully some of that learning can be applied to dogs any of our family members have in the future. That said, everyone in the family is traumatised. My parents are terrified that it will happen again if they get another dog, my brother and his wife have developed a fear of dogs and will no longer entertain the idea of owning one and despite my long-lived passion for animals and dogs in particular, even I now find myself unsure around dogs. I've always been so trusting around my friend's dogs but even with the most gentle natured of dogs I find it difficult not to flinch when they move suddenly, even though I know it's the wrong thing to do. I don't know what the cure is for my family but I know my parents are now looking at the possibility of taking on another dog to try to heal the hole in their hearts. No matter the circumstances, after 18 years of dog ownership it's hard to go back to an empty house.

Lemmsy - I don't honestly know exactly what Barbara Sykes suggested to them as it was only a few weeks after their visit to her that Sam's final serious attack on my Dad occurred so they never really had much chance to put things into practice.
I do know they attempted to muzzle train Sam using positive reinforcement but never succeeded as they were too afraid to lean over him to take the final step and start doing the muzzle up.
They also stopped allowing him to sleep in their bedroom and instead gave him a "spot" in each room that was his and when he was in a room he would be asked to go to his "spot". He was also changed onto a lower protein dry diet and they were encouraged to re-start training with him on a one-to-one basis at home. They were making good progress with all of these things when his final attack happened.

It's easier for me to talk about it than it is for my parents as although I'm really sad about Sam and devastated to see what it's done to my parents, I wasn't living at home when they got Sam so never became really attached to him. It's still an absolute tragedy though, he was so young and between his attacks he was a lovely, sweet natured and gentle dog. This is the exact reason why the farmer got bitten as to meet Sam he came across as so good natured and friendly until one of his attacks.


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## leashedForLife

i didn't see this thread when it first posted, & only saw it last night just before leaving a WiFi hotspot, 
so i didn't finish the various posts till this morning; i'm very sorry to hear that his behavior continued 
to deteriorate, & also sorry that the medical tests were inconclusive or weren't mentioned [thyroid results].

It's a great pity, poor dog, & very sorry for all the people hurt, both physically & emotionally.

If or when they get another pup, PLEASE tell Ur parents that no matter what sob-story, under 8-WO is not 
acceptable. I'm sure that it wasn't the entire problem, but i'm equally sure that early separation was a factor.
Dogs need to learn from active-play with their dam & siblings how to accept frustration, inhibit their bites, 
signal intentions, solicit play, stop unwanted intrusion, etc - they can't learn all that in a mere 6-weeks from 
birth, given they aren't even up on their feet for long until they're 5-WO.

Even if they're no longer nursing, their dam is more than a warm milk-bar. They need their first-family, 
their dog-family, to teach them how to be dogs, before they can learn to be human family-members.
One is the foundation of the other.

I hope everyone recovers soon, & that the happy memories will eventually be at least as vivid as the 
unhappy & frightening ones. Rest easy, Sam - that'll do.


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## sarie

Thanks LeashedforLife, they do already know this and I'm not sure why my Dad was prepared to take Sam on in the first place, I think he just felt sorry for him as the farmer was so unkind but at the time I disapproved quite vocally.

If they choose to take on another dog there'll be no compromising; I've asked to be heavily involved in the process and I'll be vetting any potential dog or puppy to ensure that there's as little risk as possible for both them and for their new companion.

If there's even a whiff that it's not a good match then they won't be going ahead with it.

Whatever happens, Sam will never be forgotten and in time as the wounds heal they're hoping to put his photographs up around the house to keep his memory alive.


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## Moobli

leashedForLife said:


> i didn't see this thread when it first posted, & only saw it last night just before leaving a WiFi hotspot,
> so i didn't finish the various posts till this morning; i'm very sorry to hear that his behavior continued
> to deteriorate, & also sorry that the medical tests were inconclusive or weren't mentioned [thyroid results].
> 
> It's a great pity, poor dog, & very sorry for all the people hurt, both physically & emotionally.
> 
> If or when they get another pup, PLEASE tell Ur parents that no matter what sob-story, under 8-WO is not
> acceptable. I'm sure that it wasn't the entire problem, but i'm equally sure that early separation was a factor.
> Dogs need to learn from active-play with their dam & siblings how to accept frustration, inhibit their bites,
> signal intentions, solicit play, stop unwanted intrusion, etc - they can't learn all that in a mere 6-weeks from
> birth, given they aren't even up on their feet for long until they're 5-WO.
> 
> Even if they're no longer nursing, their dam is more than a warm milk-bar. They need their first-family,
> their dog-family, to teach them how to be dogs, before they can learn to be human family-members.
> One is the foundation of the other.
> 
> I hope everyone recovers soon, & that the happy memories will eventually be at least as vivid as the
> unhappy & frightening ones. Rest easy, Sam - that'll do.


I don't completely agree with this advice. We have brought home some of our working sheepdogs at 6 weeks (mainly due to being able to better socialise and interact with them than where they were) and have never had a problem. It sounds to me that Sam had a tumour or other kind of illness or genetic programming that determined this unpredictable behaviour.

I do hope your parents feel able to get another dog in the future and that this sad episode doesn't put them off dog ownership altogether.


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## leashedForLife

Moobli said:


> We have brought home some of our working sheepdogs at 6 weeks (mainly due to being able
> to better socialise and interact with them than where they were) and have never had a problem.


Congratulations - but i'm betting U had OTHER DOGS in the house, or on the farm, & the pup spent time 
with the other dogs?...

If a pup goes home as an "only k9" with a mere *week of active play with sibs & dam*, which is what 
6-WO means in terms of development, lots of bad things happen.

Most pet-owners & puppy-buyers have *one* dog at a time, especially pups, as they're so very 
time-consuming to rear, needing potty-trips, social exposure, habituation [vet, groomer, traffic...], 
plus of course manners & cued behaviors. "Only pups" who are separated before 8-WO have problems.
Everything from bite inhibition to lousy dog-social skills & intolerance of frustration ensue.

How many dogs lived at Ur working-farm, on average?
Having other dogs help rear a pup who leaves early is key - but growing up with their DAM & SIBS until 
the pup is more emotionally mature also gives them a better start in life. Infant pups who leave early 
are often fussy, crying, don't eat well or thrive for at least a few days to a week or longer.

Leaving them with their dam & littermates a wee bit longer is an investment in their future - one that 
pays enormous, lifelong dividends, IME & IMO.


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