# Dog terrified of others



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

Hi All,

Just looking for some help.

We have a 2 year old bordercollie/greyhound cross (I think) and i've decided it's time to look for assistance.

Simply put, she is terrified of other dogs. Any at all. Upon sight, her reaction is to pull firmly the other way, or if she has no other choice, she will try and lay down and hide her head.

We recently tried bringing a puppy labrador to the house (very small) but she was the same and would not leave her bed. When the puppy got near, she turned away and was shaking.

Another example is during walks. On one occasion a yorkshire terrier was at least a mile away and could be barely made out by the eye, but yet she still reacted in the same way.

She has become slightly used to being in the company of a very old lurcher, however, she will only go near him if he is occupied by something else. As soon as he turns his attention to her, she will react as above.

I've tried things such as feeding treats upon sight of other dogs, but she seems too scared to take commands or eat the treat.

She has always been exposed to other dogs since a puppy. However, when we saw her in the kennel she sat at the back and didnt fuss any visitors, which is why we bought her. Not sure if that's significant?

any suggestions are extremely appreciated.


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

She sounds very nervous, poor thing. I would advise against bringing any other dogs to the house or in any way trying to force the issue.

If you can find a distance at which she is a bit calmer, you can then reward her for calmer behaviour when she glances at the dogs. Just let her find the distance from other dogs that she is happy with and then reward for calm behaviour.

However, the reality is that she isn't fearful-aggressive, all she's seeking to do is avoid other dogs and you may have to accept that this is just how she is?

I'm sure others will be along with far better advice than I've been able to offer


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> She sounds very nervous, poor thing. I would advise against bringing any other dogs to the house or in any way trying to force the issue.
> 
> If you can find a distance at which she is a bit calmer, you can then reward her for calmer behaviour when she glances at the dogs. Just let her find the distance from other dogs that she is happy with and then reward for calm behaviour.
> 
> ...


maybe your right! I have no idea, which is why I came here. What you suggested sounds good though, although this may be difficult seeing as if she knows there is any other dog around she's an absolute nervous wreck if im honest.

She's fine with people, and will chase rabbits etc on site if off the lead, but the sight of a dog however big, seems to scare the life out of her.

I did consider if she was 'bullied' in the kennel? It's the only thing I can imagine.

Thanks a lot for the reply.


----------



## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Is she a rescue and if so how long have you had her?


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

Twiggy said:


> Is she a rescue and if so how long have you had her?


Not a rescue mate, bought her from 6 week old.


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

*BUMPING* this thread for you 


Hopefully either SLED DOG HOTEL or OUESI may come along and advise, I find their posts really helpful.


----------



## AlfonzPig (Mar 30, 2013)

If you have friends with dogs, you could try doing in home training, also I know.that my dog used to respond to dogs.even on TV she would become livid and aggressive just hearing them, for her the training was reverse that who you would have to so however have you tried getting excited?

When.you dog plays with a toy, do you get excited? You know " where's you toy? Get your toy! Bring it here! Good doggie!" I found that my dogs respond best to when I have a good or bad reaction. Right now we are trying to teach our lab/ bouvier Bogart to let us.know.when someone is here, he doesn't really care at.all so when a vehicle pulls in I automatically get excited! He sees visitors as a good thing, and lets us know.they are here.

If you have a friend bring a dog around, preferably outside in your yard and you get excited when.you know.they are coming, you might get a better response from your pooch when she sees how.excited you are  just.a thought. Hope you find something that works for you.


----------



## Guest (Apr 4, 2013)

Hi Sam, sound like you have a really fearful girl on your hands! I have to wonder how much the breeder did (or did not do) to help her meet other dogs during critical developmental stages.

But that's neither here nor there at this point. Right now you have a really fearful girl and something needs to be done, it can't be pleasant for you, and I'm sure it's awful for her to live like this.

Check out this site:
Fearfuldogs.com
Tons of wonderful resources and suggestions there.

If this were my girl, I would set up some controlled meetings with some super stable, calm, reliable dogs. I would suggest to you that you do this through a trainer who can really monitor your girl and make sure she stays in learning mode, not overwhelmed flooding mode.

Basically you do a desensitization, and counter-conditioning routine. Present the scary thing, and at the same time offer something the dog really likes. This slowly changes the dog's emotional association with the scary thing to something good. 
This technique works really well - so well in fact that you can over do it! My dane bitch was scared of the hair dryer, now I can't get her away from the thing and dog slobber has become a permanent hair accessory for me 
But anyway...

D/CC is effective, but there is a delicate balance to properly applying it. 
The scary thing has to be presented at a level where the dog is aware, but not where she is overwhelmed. Otherwise at best you'll be spinning your wheels, at worst you'll turn your pleasant thing in to a predictor of something scary which as you can imagine is super counter-productive.

Maybe you can share your location so others on here can recommend a trainer?


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

AlfonzPig said:


> If you have friends with dogs, you could try doing in home training, also I know.that my dog used to respond to dogs.even on TV she would become livid and aggressive just hearing them, for her the training was reverse that who you would have to so however have you tried getting excited?
> 
> When.you dog plays with a toy, do you get excited? You know " where's you toy? Get your toy! Bring it here! Good doggie!" I found that my dogs respond best to when I have a good or bad reaction. Right now we are trying to teach our lab/ bouvier Bogart to let us.know.when someone is here, he doesn't really care at.all so when a vehicle pulls in I automatically get excited! He sees visitors as a good thing, and lets us know.they are here.
> 
> *If you have a friend bring a dog around, preferably outside in your yard and you get excited when.you know.they are coming,* you might get a better response from your pooch when she sees how.excited you are  just.a thought. Hope you find something that works for you.


Unless you have a HUGE garden or yard, I would not do this.

Your dog is scared. Forcing her into close proximity with another dog could be damaging to both her AND the other dog. If you don't heed the warnings your dog is giving you, and give her the space she clearly needs, then she may have to find another way of warning you that would be less pleasant for the other dog. Just my humble opinion.

Have you tried finding a good trainer? Avoid anyone who mentions 'dominance' or being 'pack leader'  You want someone who uses positive methods.

Wish you best of luck, let us know how you get on?


----------



## AlfonzPig (Mar 30, 2013)

In any situation, you will have to be aware of your dogs responses, if the fear turns to aggression you have to be fully aware and ready to act, both owners would need to be prepared to remove both dogs from the situation however letting your dog know that you like other dogs, and they make you happy could be incredibly helpful to her responses. 

As another poster said you could see a trainer, I would head more towards a behaviouralist, ( at least where I live there is a difference, and a difference in education between a trainer and a behaviouralist) if you can get some idea of what your dogs reactions are you may have a better idea of how to help her.


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

Some excellent replies there. You don't know how much it helps just to hear some advice from others. Some brilliant suggestions there that I can hopefully enforce straight away, such as bringing another dog round. 

Last time we tried bringing a dog round, she would either hide behind one of us or run to her bed. When the other dog then went to her bed, she would move somewhere else or if this wasn't possible, show her teeth. 

I know exactly what you mean by 'getting excited' with her toys and things, this is something I've never tried with other dogs around - albeit last time the other dog was a puppy and was very lively for her. 

Thanks again, if there are any updates I shall let you know! I do think it will take a while though...thanks a lot. 

Any other replies are welcomed 

I'm from Sheffield, UK by the way.


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

sammclean23 said:


> Some excellent replies there. You don't know how much it helps just to hear some advice from others. Some brilliant suggestions there that I can hopefully enforce straight away, such as bringing another dog round.
> 
> *Last time we tried bringing a dog round, she would either hide behind one of us or run to her bed. When the other dog then went to her bed, she would move somewhere else or if this wasn't possible, show her teeth. *
> 
> ...


You are placing your dog under real pressure by bringing another dog into the home.

If she's showing her teeth she is WARNING you that she is stressed and cannot cope. I would be really worried about her turning on the other dog if you leave her with no other option.

Why not get a trainer and do the same thing but in a neutral area such as a park or at least the trainer's garden if they have a big one?

I am not an expert but I too have a very reactive, nervous dog and no way would I ever want him feeling THIS stressed in his own home.


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> You are placing your dog under real pressure by bringing another dog into the home.
> 
> If she's showing her teeth she is WARNING you that she is stressed and cannot cope. I would be really worried about her turning on the other dog if you leave her with no other option.
> 
> ...


I understand your concern and thanks for the reply.

This was the first time we tried it so didn't really know how she would react. Made it extremely clear just how bad it is though. It's hard to believe how such a playful dog can become more or less unable to move at the sight of another.

I've been speaking with my parents and they did say that when they picked her up from the kennel, she was sat right at the back on her own whilst the rest fussed any visitors. I think this may have something to do with it?


----------



## Strawberryearth (Apr 5, 2012)

As the owner of a fearful dog myself I can partially understand where you are coming from.

The other advice you have been given has been excellent but I just wanted to add one more thing. Observation.

With Betty (her fear is strangers and training is ongoing) we do some short observation sessions. This is where we go and sit somewhere high up, out of the way of passing traffic in a "safe" place- where I am happy that no one will sneak up behind us or something. For us it is the top steps of an old building, we can go to the top of the steps and view people from a safe distance, the building is behind us so no one can sneak up and I can see anyone with intentions of coming towards us as they have to climb the steps! 

When we do observation we just sit there, together, for a few minutes and watch the world go by. I don't really talk to her but whenever I see someone walk past I feed her treats, nice ones. Perhaps there is somewhere nearby that you can go and sit together and watch other dogs go by at a safe distance while feeding yummy things. That way you are just focussing on the 1 thing, rather than throwing walking into the mix as well. 

BAT training would say to use a functional reward- where the dog sees a trigger (another dog) and rather than forcing the issue by getting closer, the "reward" is that you turn and walk in the opposite direction- doing what the dogs wants by putting more distance between you and the scary thing.


----------



## Babbo (Feb 6, 2013)

have you had a chat with a pet behaviourist? Sometimes they are good and can help with some free advice over the phone ;-)


----------



## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> You are placing your dog under real pressure by bringing another dog into the home.
> 
> *If she's showing her teeth she is WARNING you that she is stressed and cannot cope. I would be really worried about her turning on the other dog if you leave her with no other option.*
> 
> ...


Showing teeth is certainly a warning - but one that's pretty normal behaviour when an adult dog is confronted by a puppy that's a bit bouncy. It can be teaching manners, and not that the dog can't cope. My adult gave plenty of warnings like this to the new puppy.

OP's dog is clearly trying to avoid any contact with other dogs though. What socialisation was done when she was young? Has she ever been seriously frightened by another dog? And what's her bounceback like for other fear-provoking events, for instance the noise when you drop a pan on the the floor - would she avoid coming back into the kitchen for some time? Not suggesting you start throwing pans, just trying to get more idea what she's like in her general life.

I like Ouesi's plan of action.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sammclean23 said:


> Not a rescue mate, *bought her [when she was] 6-weeks-old*.


this is one very-clear instance of what happens when a pup is separated too-early from dam & siblings:
they don't get the practice needed with their first "birth" family to become normal, dog-social, dog-savvy 
adult dogs. :nonod:

we just had a long discussion with someone whose 'ethical, responsible' breeder wanted to send their reserved pup
home a full 7-days ahead of the anticipated, planned 56-DO / 8-WO day... & we discussed why it's a bad idea
for the puppy & their lifespan, for the buyer / owner & their life with other dog encounters, but a GOOD idea
for the breeder - as it saves them the time, hassle, & mess of another 7 to 14-days of cleaning up puppy-poop. 

Sorry, IMO there is no excuse for shortchanging a puppy, who will quite literally pay for the 'savings'
to the lazy, irresponsible breeder for the rest of her or his life - & so will the owner, as U have experienced.

Next time, DON't get a 6-WO pup; wait till they're at least 56-days age.


----------



## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> this is one very-clear instance of what happens when a pup is separated too-early from dam & siblings:
> they don't get the practice needed with their first "birth" family to become normal, dog-social, dog-savvy
> adult dogs. :nonod:
> 
> ...


6 weeks is a bit young, but the dog I got at 7 weeks is totally confident (a bit too full of herself at times, thinks she can take on anything). The fact that this pup wasn't interacting with her littermates or visitors when collected tells a lot more than her age. It really shows how early characters are formed, and demonstrates why people are advised not to go for the shy puppy at the back. Guide dogs pups are taken from the dam at 6-7 weeks, and they are expected to become well balanced dogs and trained for total social stability.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Burrowzig said:


> Guide dogs pups are taken from the dam at 6-7 weeks, and they are expected to become well balanced dogs
> and trained for total social stability.


Guide-dog pups in the USA are not removed from dam & sibs at 42 to 49 days age, or at least it is not 
done as a rule [i don't know of any organizations that do so], since literally ANY interstate travel for any pup 
under 56-DO is illegal per Federal USDA law; under 8-WO / 56-DO, all pups & dams travel as a group, no puppy 
may travel solo. Thus, any pup removed from the dam/sibs could only travel WITHIN the birth-state, legally.

Plus, the rules can vary from state to state, or local laws can vary, but most ban the separation of any pup
under a minimum of 49-DO / 7-WO [Commonwealth of VA state law], & many agree with the USDA regulation 
of minimum 56-days / 8-weeks before separation.

Besides the age-of-separation difference betw UK & USA, *guide-dog pups are intensively & extensively 
socialized & habituated*, far-more than any ordinary "pet dog" puppy would be; they go to public events, 
use elevators, are taken to construction sites & other high-noise nonstandard venues, etc, from a very early age, 
onward into puberty & beyond. Most stay with foster-families AKA puppy-raisers for 12 to 18-months, 
before they return to the breeding organization for the 'task' training - the formal training for their jobs.

i don't know any pet-dog puppy-buyer who has fulfilled the sort of wide-ranging & time-intensive training
for their puppy, that's given as a matter of course to Guide-dog candidates - some of whom, despite all that 
work, time, & effort expended, will still fail, & become available for adoption to pet-homes, or find a new career.

Even extensive, exhaustive, intensive training doesn't guarantee the pup will achieve her / his role.
i'd love to know the failure-rate for pups intended for Guide-dogs who leave @ 6-WO vs 7-WO vs 8-WO - 
that would be fascinating data.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Burrowzig said:


> 6 weeks is a bit young, but *the dog I got at 7-WO is totally confident* (a bit too full of herself at times,
> thinks she can take on anything). ...


That's the same point U made on the other thread, Zig.  It is obviously true for Ur puppy that she's OK;
it's equally true for me, as a trainer, that some of the most-severely damaged young dogs & pups i've seen 
have all been separated prior to 56-days age; so i do not advise it, cannot condone it, & won't agree that 
it's just fine --- it's an added & unacceptable risk, IME, period.

That it worked out beautifully for Ur dog is good for U & her - but doesn't change the odds for pups overall, 
who are at added risk for social problems for every added day they are shortchanged at separation, 
IME over the past 20-plus years, particularly living next-door to NC for a decade, which state is notorious 
for small-scale puppy farms run by individuals in their homes / barns / sheds, to make ends meet.

NC has few industries, employment is scarce, many residents WORK in neighboring states, 
& they "export" puppies as a sideline income. :incazzato: I saw hundreds of pups who arrived illegally
in VA underage, some as young as 5-WO, mostly 6 to 7-WO, ALL with dog:dog social issues.

They are heartbreaking to see, & difficult to improve, even with devoted owners who feel guilty 
at having bought their pup far-younger than s/he should have left Mom-dog & their litter. :nonod:

Here are some ADS to sample:
Google --- Don't buy any of these pups, is my advice.


----------



## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Bless her, she sounds dreadfully nervous! Poor girl!

The first thing I would like to mention is that I have dog who is petrified of everything! He is fear aggressive towards other dogs and when I started working with him he was extremely reactive at the sight/sound no matter the distance. 

Please, do not bring another dog into her home, this is really not wise considering her home is supposed to be her safe place away from the big scary things outside. If you do bring dogs in I highly recommend you segregate the new dog off away from where she like to be or her bed. I would never feel comfortable brining a new or familiar dog into the space of my boy no matter the progress we have made as it will set him back. 

Does she react to noises of other dogs? Like barking etc? There are sounds CDs you can buy to help accustom dogs to certain noises such as fireworks, vacuums and other household noises. I'm certain I have seen one for dog noises as well. 

You could introduce the cd at a very low volume whilst distracting her with toys, games, foods, chews, known tricks. If she reacts negatively try to give her time and keep her distracted. If she is extremely fearful then she is over her threshold and it needs to be turned down. Try not to make it obvious when fiddling with the CD player, a clever dog will quickly associate the two and know what's coming!

The site of a dog used to send my scooby into a fit of snuffles, whining, diluted pupils, stiff as a board and desperate to slip everything he had on (harness, collar, muzzle etc.) even if it was not holding him back. He hated things touching him when heightened to that level as though he was hyper sensitive, he ended giving himself a massive gash inside his arm pit through all the struggling 

I used to bring lots of treats, raw sausage meat, hot dog slices, crisp and dry unsalted bacon out with me as these where his favourite. I would sit as physically far away as possible from a dog in sight and just hold a treat at the end of his nose. 

It was critical he was so far away as food becomes useless once over the threshold. You will need to discover at what distance it all becomes to much for your dog and this is her threshold. It's very important you keep her below this level to the best you can at all times. 

After scooby had taken a few treats (whole time eyes where on the dog) I would hold the treat in my hand and not open until he flickered his eyes away from the dog. I slowly built this up until his eyes averted away from the dog for longer and longer. He's beginning to trust me at this point and beginning to realise that when I say his name, I want something. 

I did this for weeks, day after day. No, it's not very exciting at all but it really helped! Once the dog becomes calmer you can begin to ask for more. Get her to lay down, sit, focus etc. all the tricks she knows well! As you are practicing you can inch closer without her even realising. Remember to take it slow and if she begins to feel uncomfortable distract her and go back to your original spot. 

It's very important that I treat scooby as soon as he takes his eyes off of any dog. As your dog is fearful you may find it actually helps if you treat her for looking at them rather then away. 

Things can be done to help but it sounds like quite a deep fear so it is going to be a lengthy process. You will have set backs and you will think, at times, nothing is working but you really must dedicate yourself to it!

Good luck  feel free to ask any questions if what I have said is unclear.


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

sammclean23 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Just looking for some help.
> 
> ...





sammclean23 said:


> Not a rescue mate,* bought her from 6 week old*.


The items in bold may well have been the start of your problems way back in the litter, it sounds like she was one of the less confident ones in the litter and unsure even quite fearful back then in general, compounded by leaving mum and litter mates at 6 weeks, she would have missed out on vital time in canine socialisation period where a couple of weeks in the early critical stages of developement can be a really big deal, especially in a pup who is generally unconfident as well. Early bad and frightening experiences too in these early critical weeks can have a lasting impact.

From what you have said it sounds like its way beyond just fearful it sounds more like an almost phobic response. Normally I would suggest starting at working at great distances away, that she is non reactive at and can cope and then slowly and gently decreasing distance as she learns to cope, but if its a bad as you say and even a small dog a very long distance away sets her off with uncontrollable fearful response then that sounds out of the question. A really stressed fearful dog will not usually take treats either.

Bringing a puppy into the house would have been even harder to cope with as shes in a confined space and cant get away, if she cant cope at great distances from dogs, then that must have sent her way over threshold of what she can cope with.

In this case I really think the best course of action is to consider a dog behaviourist who can assess her and then come up with a tailor made behaviour modification programme, and can work hands on in situ with you and her.
CAPBT - COAPE Association of Pet Behaviourists and Trainers should find a behaviourist in your area, I suggest that you contact a couple and have a chat to them and take it forward from there.


----------



## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> That's the same point U made on the other thread, Zig.  It is obviously true for Ur puppy that she's OK;
> *it's equally true for me, as a trainer, that some of the most-severely damaged young dogs & pups i've seen*
> have all been separated prior to 56-days age; so i do not advise it, cannot condone it, & won't agree that
> it's just fine --- it's an added & unacceptable risk, IME, period.
> ...


As a trainer, you're only going to be seeing the dogs that have problems; the problems could stem from leaving the mother early, or for other reasons such as the basic character of the pup. The others, perhaps the majority, that don't have problems, won't be taken to a trainer. From what you do, you're bound to have a perspective skewed by the problems you see, not the happy and socially competant dogs you don't.


----------



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

There was a gorgeous little dog at our training school just like your girl. We worked in a hall with six other owners. Little Monty was terrified of practically everything and the first six or seven sessions barely moved but watched the rest of us. A few sessions later he started to do the sit command in the group, then gradually others followed. By the time he'd had his fourteenth session he was doing most of what the others were doing and even walking into class where as before he had to be carried. 

It was lovely to see him set free of his fears even though at first you couldn't help but feel sorry for him. Just seeing other dogs do things but not having to actually meet them was all it took, although they had to be very patient and at times he'd just be there and not do anything in the way if training at all. 

Last I heard he was training for agility - how's that for coming out if his shell?

Group training in a controlled environment may help your girl too.


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Might be worth looking up DINOS (dogs in need of space) too in case there are any coping mechanisms you havent thought of.
I have a little girl who is scared of other dogs when out and wants nothing to do with them, although she is good at home and happily plays with my other 3.
SOunds like you have your work cut out for you though... Collies are prone to nervous behaviour and being highly strung anyways, then you picked the most timid, nervous puppy out of the litter so got double the neurosis!!
I hope you can make her more comfortable, but Im sure she will be happy with you for company even if she never likes other dogs!


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Burrowzig said:


> As a trainer, *you're only going to be seeing the dogs that have problems*; the problems could stem
> from leaving the mother early, or for other reasons such as the basic character of the pup.
> 
> The other [pups & dogs], perhaps the majority, that don't have problems, won't be taken to a trainer.
> ...


that's not true - 
since i also volunteered with a few shelters, several breed-rescues, 3 or 4 all-breed rescues, 
plus meeting neighbors' dogs, friends' dogs, dogs on the bike-path & beach, dogs at the dog-park, 
dogs at public events [Bark in the Park...], etc; more than 75% of the dogs i meet are Non-Clients. 

i meet them on sidewalks, in pet-supply stores, on the boardwalk & beaches, in the state park... i meet plenty 
of happy, friendly, highly-sociable dogs; _vanishingly few_ of the sociable, confident pups & dogs
left their dam & littermates before 8-WO.

The very-few who survive an early separation without significant fallout, were adopted into multi-dog homes 
with at least 2 older, highly-sociable dogs/pups, plus they had experienced, savvy owners who made a major 
effort to compensate EARLY, while the pup was still under 12-WO. Early intervention is key; past 16-WO, 
it's all major work for minimal payoff, & hefty B-Mod.


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

Wow, I can't possibly reply to everyone individually, but thank you very much to all. Just spent a while reading through those replies and working out what we can do. 

Observation sounds great, though as said,it will be lenghty. Even the site of another dog that cannot physically reach Meg scares the life out of her. 

In the home, she is generally not scared of anything. Loud noises cause her to back off, but then she just sniffs whatever it was. A good thing im guessing? 

Also, there are 2 very noisy dogs next door. She doesn't even flinch at them, but upon sight, she's scared again. 

I really do apologise but after speaking with my parents that fetched her, it was actually 9 weeks when we got her so I do apologise for starting a bit of a debate!

As said aswell, she will not take treats when stressed. And i imagine trying to do when she is stressed is almost rewarding her for being scared?

In the house she is as normal as any dog would be and is far from scared of strangers or anything else. Its quite sad at times to see her bounding for the door to meet someone new, put the second she spots a dog with them, she's back in her bed in an instant. 

Thanks again for these replies, really does help


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Been thinking about this, and as her fear is so extreme and she cant cope with even dogs in the distance, or even the old lurcher thats laid back when he looks at her and also wont take treats because the fear is so extreme.
Im wondering if the best method would be to go backwards before you can start to go forwards and try to get her in a better place first.

I notice you said even at distance she tries to pull the other way, so it looks like her first thought is flight to get away and put distance where she feels safe. If she cant do it she then goes into overload and sounds like she just shuts down and hides her head to try to make herself invisible. Obviously if you dont let her take flight and distance herself she really gets stressed even more and really cant cope, and the more she stresses out and is fearful likely the worst she will get.

Im wondering if it will be best to let her exercise the option of flight for awhile rather then make her stay put and let the stress and fear increase.
It sounds like dogs that she thinks will possibly come towards her and make contact is the problem mostly. Im wondering if you just turn around and then let her make up her mind at the distance she will fill at ease you can then start to go forward when the heats off a bit.

Often naturally a pup or dog, when unsure of a situation will hide behind their owners as protection. Im also wondering if you start working on a command to get her to go behind you may help too, once shes at a distance she feels confortable at so she will be more at ease. I would try t at home first where she isnt stressed, and you can lure her behind you with a treat, and use the command hide or behind and then reward her when she when she is behind you, then once she is out side and after she has inititally exercised her option to flee and be at a distance she is happy with the hide may give her enough confidence to then stay put as she feels protected without being over stressed. Maybe then if you get her to a better place, where she feels safe you can then work on coming forward to start getting her used to dogs slowly after that. That way she can exercise her natural instincts and hopefully put her in a position she feels safe and once she does you can then work on getting her used to dogs.

Ive been thinking about how the lurcher may be able to help too perhaps, as he seems the only dog she can bare to be close too, even though once he looks at her or shows interest she freaks, if you can work on that to help.
If the old lurcher is bomb proof and good with dogs and non reactive, if you know the owner, Im wondering if you could walk them together, but with the lurcher in front so she is following him and learning from him and maybe picking up confidence to at least some degree, if he is ahead and facing forward and she is behind and got his back to her, then she may be happy to follow him from behind, at least it will be a start, with the pressure off, she may start to get more confident around him and in the longer term it may help her without initially putting her under stress or more then she can cope with at first.

Dont know for sure of course, but might be worth ago.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sammclean23 said:


> Even the sight of another dog that cannot physically reach Meg scares the life out of her.


Consider using a Calming-Cap to make her vision fuzzy at a distance; this will give U a threshold
to begin desensitization, where she can vaguely see a dog at a safe non-reactive distance.
PDF on its use: http://tinyurl.com/cp79y7q

Amazon carries it, among other retailers.


sammclean23 said:


> In the home, she is generally not scared of anything.
> Loud noises cause her to back off, but then she just sniffs whatever it was. A good thing, i'm guessing?


Yup. :yesnod:


sammclean23 said:


> ...2 very noisy dogs [live] next door. She doesn't even flinch at [their noise], but upon sight, she's scared again.


Give her an option to look out a window or thru a glass door, if there is one - 
so she can see them, but with a solid barrier between herself & the neighboring dogs.
Reward any glance at them, whether they're barking or not, NO MATTER WHAT her own body-language
may be; her own visible response will improve over time, & this will create clickable moments [ears rise, 
tail comes away from belly, body relaxes, etc]. Anything that is incrementally better can be 
marked & rewarded.


sammclean23 said:


> ...she will not take treats when stressed. And *i imagine [offering food] when she is stressed
> is almost rewarding her for being scared*?


*classical conditioning is Non-Contingent:* Pavlov didn't demand that his dogs SIT 
in order to get the meat-powder; the bell rang, the meat-powder was puffed into their mouths, Poof!

Even if she does not eat it, if she sniffs it, that's still a worthwhile behavior; sniffing is calming,
the presence of food is calming - U have to start somewhere, after all. Once she begins to relax, 
she'll eat - just be sure to use stuff that's BETTER than her dinner to get her attn / make happy 
associations. Tempt her; pouch-tuna, freeze-dried whitefish, diced low-fat cheese... high-protein, 
low-carb, low-fat, low-salt. PEA-sized, not big hunks! Even half-pea sized is fine. It's quality, not 
quantity. 

OPERANT conditioning asks the learner to do X to be rewarded;
establishing an association asks nothing of the learner, it simply pairs 2 stimuli.
X is present, & Y happens.


sammclean23 said:


> In the house she is as normal as any dog... far from scared of strangers or anything else. It's quite sad at times
> to see her *bounding for the door to meet someone new, put the second she spots a dog with them, she's back
> in her bed in an instant*.


i would not have other dogs to the house, period. If she's that distressed, she needs a safe haven.

Seeing the neighbors' dogs from the safe vantage of a closed window or a door that's open only 
for a glimpse, is a B-Mod opportunity using a familiar stooge; but any k9 visitors are, for now, 
invaders who make her feel anxious.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Ive been thinking about how the lurcher may be able to help too perhaps, as he seems the only dog
> she can bear to be close to, even tho once he looks at her or shows interest she freaks, if you can work
> on that to help.
> 
> ...


Definitely - 
see Turid Rugaas' description of a 'FOLLOW ME walk', named for the little trucks that guide planes along 
the tarmac at airports; the dog who goes first on the way out, after a 10 to 20-minute walk, becomes 
the leader for the return trip, which allows both dogs a nice leisurely chance to watch the other ahead 
of them, & sniff at the first dog's tracks, scat, urine, etc.

How widely they need to be separated [each time, on the way out & the return] is determined by 
the dogs: both should be aware of the other, but not fussed or excessively distracted. The distance 
that is comfy for both dogs can vary, depending upon which is ahead, what direction U're going, 
each dog's past experiences in that area, & so on - or noises currently, a passing plane overhead, etc.


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

This, like the restof the advice here, sounds excellent. The methods are increasing which I hope will give us more chance to sort this. I hope the fact that shes 2 year old won't hinder things. 

I see what you mean with the flight option, she needs to be able to choose, but this is a risk in that she may not come back if she is still fearful. Saying that though, if we do it somewhere secure she should be okay. 

Just took her to the window to watch dogs on the field, and iv done this before, but she will act like she does want to go outside and see them. but the second we try it, its the opposite.


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

sammclean23 said:


> This, like the restof the advice here, sounds excellent. The methods are increasing which I hope will give us more chance to sort this. I hope the fact that shes 2 year old won't hinder things.
> 
> I see what you mean with the flight option, she needs to be able to choose, but this is a risk in that she may not come back if she is still fearful. Saying that though, if we do it somewhere secure she should be okay.
> 
> Just took her to the window to watch dogs on the field, and iv done this before, but she will act like she does want to go outside and see them. but the second we try it, its the opposite.


Sorry I did mean with her on a lead, so you just turn around and go back the way she wants and give her the option to distance herself to a degree she feels confortable maybe when she sees a dog and starts to freak. I didnt mean off lead as if really spooked she could run and run and be in danger if she wasnt in a completely enclosed area, also even if in an enclosed area if an off lead dog chased her it would likely make her worse if it came up close.
If shes on lead with you or initially, then you would still have her under control, but at the same time she could exercise distance by flight as an option. If you work of the hide too so that she is behind you and if it works and she feels more protected as you will be a buffer in between her and the dog, then that may give her the confidence to stay put without getting overly stressed and being that bit more confident. With the initial letting her chose a distance she is confortable at and then the "protection" of being behind you I thought maybe eventually she wont feel the need to flee so much and then you have something to build up on from there maybe once you have got her in a better place then just being totally terrified of the sight of a dog a long way off. Sort of a halfway house inititally. Although it will take time and patience as you can only work at one speed and thats the dogs and what they can cope with at any given time. Push too much too soon and you can have a set back.

Another thing that may help is some natural calmatives. I found the adaptil collars certainly took the edge off with my boy who was terrified of certain environmmental situations. You can get it in a spray form for your clothes too or spray it on a bandana and put it around her neck, I did use the collars though.
Adaptil helps dogs and puppys learn settle travel and in kennels

Zylkene has helped a lot of dogs too its just based on casien a protein found in milk and has a calming effect. You can get it in packs of 8 or 10 I think so trail size before buying more to see if it helps.
Zylkene - Overview

Unlike the heavy duty pharmacueticals you can get from vets that can make them zonked, these just have a natural gentle calming effect, that sometimes just calms them down and takes the edge of the anxiety that in turn can make them just a bit more receptive while you are training and building confidence.

There are others too, but they may be worth a try you can buy them at on line vet pharmacies and because they are not drugs dont need to get them from vets or have a prescription. Lot cheaper too usually. I usually get mine from www.vet-medic.com although there are others so shop around for best prices.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

there are a slew of non-scrip calmatives that are safe, they don't interact w/ meds or food, no overdose risk, 
& so on; they can be given ad-lib / used anytime. Some are oral, others olfactory, others are tactile.

see the #22 post on the *dog body language* sticky, or just click
Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - dog body-language - and why it matters so much...

that one post explains What to use, How to use it, When, etc.


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

Thanks both! Anything that will help I will consider. 

So, just to clarify with letting my dog choose which option to take. I'd take her out as normal, however, when she becomes fearful, we would follow whatever she chooses until she feels comfortable again? 

Just want to get this right, the last thing I need is to go backwards


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sammclean23 said:


> So, just to clarify...
> I'd take her out as normal - however, when she becomes fearful, we'd follow whatever she chooses
> until she feels comfortable again?


i don't think that's what SD-Hotel had in mind, but i'll let her reply.

The "FOLLOW ME Walk", tho, is definitely not a spontaneous exercise - U plan it with the help 
of the other dog's owner & handler, so that they become partners in this endeavor. :yesnod:

U'd be talking to the senior-Lurcher's person / people, asking if they'd be willing to help, & explaining 
what U need, & why. If they walk their dog regularly, it's probly not a massive effort, but it does
demand co-ordination & co-operation, not simply following another dog & handler along the street.


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

sammclean23 said:


> Thanks both! Anything that will help I will consider.
> 
> So, just to clarify with letting my dog choose which option to take. I'd take her out as normal, however, when she becomes fearful, we would follow whatever she chooses until she feels comfortable again?
> 
> Just want to get this right, the last thing I need is to go backwards


At the moment as I understand it she cant cope with dogs even way in the distance if she thinks they are coming towards her and may initiate contact, so will naturally try to flee, or if you prevent her from doing so, she will just freeze throw herself on the ground and bury her face and as she is so stressed and terrified you cant even begin to use treats at the moment to try to start overcoming the fear and making good associations with dogs as you would normally, starting at a distance the dog is comfortable at and doesnt react because from what you say she doesnt appear to have a comfortable distance mom or one you have been able to find so far, and she is so frightened she wont take any treats either.

I noticed too that you said when you went to see her she was the one in the background and wouldnt initiate contact or come forward either when you got her as a pup so was unconfident or so it seems way back then.

The possible idea was to see if she herself will pre-determine her own distance that she may feel comfortable at, so that when she panics at the sight of a dog and her natural instinct is to put distance, with her on lead, you just turn around and go away from the dog inititally instead of trying to make her stay put as at the moment she is just increasing in fear if you do that, so you will have no chance of getting her better that way if shes forced to face up as such or not at the moment she cant.

It was a suggestion to see if letting her distance herself,and exercise her own instincts initially she will then become less fearful and then find her own distance and then relax. Also work at home on the hide/behind command until its reliable so once distances herself, you can then use that too, and act as the safety net between her and the dog again working with natural instincts as a lot of dog or pups when fearful will hide behind their owners automatically so again working with natural instincts. If it works as I think it may, then if she find her place and feels safer overall and especially if you can get her to accept treats, you can then start to move forward by getting closer to the dogs in the normal way you would use slowly over time.

In addition to this as the old dopey lurcher is the only dog she seems to be able to bare being around at fairly close proximity, even though as yet if he looks at her or tries to interact she cant cope at the moment. There was the further suggestion of walking them in a controlled manner with the dog in front and facing away with his back to her, so he leads and she follows his example without stress and she should then learn from him, providing of course he is bomb proof and non reactive and totally calm himself.

I did use this with Nanuq as the lead dog with a fearful/agressive lurcher with other dogs, by befriending him first so he had trust and was used to me and then slowly introducing Nanuq so he could be around her slowly more and more, we did the walks finally walking them eventually side by side and then once he had trust in her they would also play and interact, he gradually learned from her as regards to other dogs and interaction without reacting. Took a long time though but it did work
and he built confidence from her initially only and then slowly with other dogs.

Sorry if Ive waffled a bit just trying to explain it properly.

Maybe leashed for life can comment if she thinks this may be a good idea as Im not as experienced.


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

Thanks a lot sled. Really appreciate you taking the time to explain that, and no its not waffle at all. Makes sense logically. 

It may or may not work, and will take effort, but it's so much more than what we had before, and that was nothing. 

Will keep reading what you wrote and familiarise myself with it. 

Again, I appreciate the help. Thanks!


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

sammclean23 said:


> Thanks a lot sled. Really appreciate you taking the time to explain that, and no its not waffle at all. Makes sense logically.
> 
> It may or may not work, and will take effort, but it's so much more than what we had before, and that was nothing.
> 
> ...


Good luck, keep us updated how you are getting on.


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

Bit of an update. 

I haven't had chance to take her out that much due to work, but she has been out with others every day and i've asked them to notice what she does. 

By getting her excited when she sees a dog appears to be working hugely. Now we can get her to wag her tail up until the other dog becoming really close, which is much more than before. 

Also, it seems she's much better when she has distractions, i.e. playing fetch, and it seems she does know/feel she will be safer with the owner - whilst on the field she ran back on sight of a dog rather than away like before. 

Maybe the problem isn't as embedded as initially thought, although it is still there quite clearly.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sammclean23 said:


> Bit of an update.
> 
> I haven't had chance to take her out that much due to work, but she has been out with others every day
> & i've asked them to notice what she does.
> ...


Just pointing out:
this needs to be under *controlled circs -* U can't have the "other dog" off-leash, nor allow that 
other dog to get So Close, that she is overwhelmed - called "*flooding*", this will strengthen her fears,
instead of shrinking them.

Plus, second-hand info is only as accurate as the viewer's knowledge, & it's also being TOLD to U verbally,
as opposed to "seeing it happen" - i'd ask the other handlers / owner to video the interactions, so U see them.


sammclean23 said:


> ...it seems she's much better when [distracted], i.e. playing fetch, & * it seems she does know / feel
> she'll be safer with the owner - whilst on the field, she ran back on sight of a dog,
> rather than away [as she did] before. *


PLease, please, *please* tell us she's NOT off-leash?... Nor are the other dogs?!

this cannot be done in such a sloppy, harum-scarem fashion as off-leash play; she needs to be on 
a long-line to play fetch, & the other dogs cannot be unrestrained; *no matter how friendly, 
they can't run up to her* in order to meet / greet / play with her!

plus she's STILL *running away from the other dog! ---* the only difference, she runs TO the owner when fleeing. :mad2:


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> Just pointing out:
> this needs to be under *controlled circs -* U can't have the "other dog" off-leash, nor allow that
> other dog to get So Close, that she is overwhelmed - called "*flooding*", this will strengthen her fears,
> instead of shrinking them.
> ...


I completely understand every point you make. and you are right.

On the occasion of running back to the owner, she was off leash. Out of my control though, I personally do not let her off in this way.

This is why I posted the update to gather more opinions, however, I have arranged for my dog to 'meet' with my girlfriends dog and take it from there, but 'controlled' as you say. Though I'm not sure this will happen very soon so for the minute I will personally work on what was suggested above. The only problem is, if others do the opposite and hinder her progress. It's difficult.

Also, just a bit confusd with giving treats. Should this be done once she has relaxed after placing distance with the other dogs?Just unsure whether this will enforce the idea that she should distance herself, rather than not be fearful of other dogs.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sammclean23 said:


> ...just a bit confused re treats.
> Should this be done once she's relaxed [& away from] the other dogs?
> 
> ...unsure whether this will [reinforce] the idea that she should [move away], vs not [fear] other dogs.


for short-but-fairly detailed instructions,
http://www.petforums.co.uk/2202449-post9.html

U need to keep the dog UNDER threshold, meaning aware of the other dog [or any triggers],
but =Not= reacting to them - IOW, if the dog usually tucks tail & shrinks bodily, unable to relax,
then s/he needs to be far-enuf away to have the tail visible, not under the belly [it can lower - 
just not a lot!...], & capable of responding to cues, eating a tidbit, etc.
The apropos distance may vary from day to day, depending on other factors; but over time, 
there should be a definite tendency to improve, able to be closer without stress or distress.

if the dog cannot EAT - they're too stressed; back up, or simply U-turn & get outta Dodge.
Practice an emergency-U-turn in happy, relaxed circs, for just that eventuality. 

here's Tripod's blog series on calming dogs - 
Calming Your Cerrrrrraaaaaazzzzzzzy Canine - new blog series - Pet Forums Community


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> for short-but-fairly detailed instructions,
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/2202449-post9.html
> 
> U need to keep the dog UNDER threshold, meaning aware of the other dog [or any triggers],
> ...


Excellent thanks very much for that! really do appreciate help. Ill keep this updated as I get on.


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

Wow its been a while!

I keep coming back to read this thread though. 

I am finding it extremely hard if im honest. Progress is extremely slow and we often seem to go backwards. 

We can't see the old greyhound anymore, however have found another pup to walk her with after being introduced gradually. She walks quite happily with her, and only fearful when the other dog gets too excited, even then she just growls a bit and carries on (possibly becuase my dog is 5x the size). 

This is good, and is great to take her out. But there is ALWAYS a step backwards. 

If on my route, we go past a house with dogs on the garden, she instantly becomes fearful of that route and will try her best to avoid the house. Often, I don't know there are dogs there and yesterday, we were confronted by 2 huge rottweilers that definately were not scared of her. I have never seen her so fearful, infact, she was squealing as she was trying to get out of her collar so much. 

That, coupled with the fact I thought they were gonna rip me in half too, made for a s*** experience for both me and my dog.

Think that's all I have to add now, but I'm seriously thinking about paying somebody to help. 

Oh, one way I've found to keep her calm is with the 'eyes on me' technique, often I use her ball for this and keep her attention on the ball. Though this only works in open spaces and is difficult next to roads etc. 

To see how excited my dog is prior walk, crying and running around the house as soon as I mention 'walking', only for her to be a nervous wreck in the next instant is really difficult to cope with. 

Any help is massively appreciated here.


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Its not unusual to get set backs along the way fear and anxiety based problems are the hardest and take the longest to rectify even then you may never have a dog that becomes 100% bombproof in all situations.

It may well be worth you considering a one to one trainer, just to have some sessions to talk you through and go out with you, it would likely help with your confidence in handling situations if they arise.

CAPBT - COAPE Association of Pet Behaviourists and Trainers is one organisation that you should be able to find a behaviourist in your area. If you have been trying alone, and made some progress but not as much as you feel you could have then that is probably the best bet.


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Its not unusual to get set backs along the way fear and anxiety based problems are the hardest and take the longest to rectify even then you may never have a dog that becomes 100% bombproof in all situations.
> 
> It may well be worth you considering a one to one trainer, just to have some sessions to talk you through and go out with you, it would likely help with your confidence in handling situations if they arise.
> 
> CAPBT - COAPE Association of Pet Behaviourists and Trainers is one organisation that you should be able to find a behaviourist in your area. If you have been trying alone, and made some progress but not as much as you feel you could have then that is probably the best bet.


Many thanks for this. Yeah I think some one to one help would be great. We did consult a trainer but she was quick to point out that this is much deeper than training. Also heard behavourists can be quite expensive in comparison but she can't continue like this.

Thanks for the help, really do appreciate it


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

UPDATE:


sammclean23 said:


> I'm finding it extremely hard, if i'm honest. Progress is extremely slow & we often seem to go backwards.
> 
> We can't see the old greyhound any more... we've found another pup to walk with, after being introduced gradually.
> She walks quite happily with her, & is only fearful when the other dog gets too excited, even then she just
> ...


Previously:


Sled dog hotel said:


> ...even at distance, she tries to pull the other way, so it looks like her first thought is flight to get away
> and put distance [between her & the other dog(s)], where she feels safe.
> 
> If she can't [flee], she... overloads, it sounds like she just shuts down & hides her head to try to make herself
> ...





leashedForLife said:


> Consider using a Calming-Cap to make her vision fuzzy at a distance; this will give U a threshold
> to begin desensitization, where she can vaguely see a dog at a safe non-reactive distance.
> PDF on its use: http://tinyurl.com/cp79y7q
> 
> ...





Sled dog hotel said:


> ...with her on a lead --- you just turn around and go back the way she wants and give her the option
> to distance herself to a degree she feels confortable maybe when she sees a dog and starts to freak.
> 
> I didnt mean off lead as if really spooked she could run and run and be in danger if she wasnt in
> ...





leashedForLife said:


> there are a slew of *non-scrip calmatives* that are safe, they don't interact w/ meds or food, no overdose risk,
> & so on; they can be given ad-lib / used anytime. Some are oral, others olfactory, others are tactile.
> 
> see the #22 post on the *dog body language* sticky, or just click
> ...





sammclean23 said:


> On the occasion of running back to the owner, she was off-leash. Out of my control -
> though, I personally do not let her off in this way.
> 
> ... I have arranged for my dog to 'meet' with my girlfriend's dog & take it from there, but 'controlled'
> ...





leashedForLife said:


> for short-but-fairly detailed instructions,
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/2202449-post9.html
> 
> U need to keep the dog UNDER threshold, meaning aware of the other dog [or any triggers],
> ...


U started the thread in early-April; it's now early-October. That's 6-months.
Basically, U are saying U've made minimal progress? - if i'm reading it correctly.

She can focus on a ball in open spaces, away from other dogs - they can be at a long distance.
But she can't even walk past a garden [in the USA, the yard] of a house with dogs behind the fence,
& will remember that location & try to avoid passing there in future even if the dogs Are NOT outside.

Some Qs:
- did U buy any Adaptil & use it as directed?

- did U buy a Calming-Cap & habituate it at home, then have her wear it on walks?

- Did U try taking her to places where she can SEE dogs thru the car's window at a distance,
& let her eat her meal [breakfast or dinner] with dogs in the distance?

- Did U try a body-wrap using a snug stretchy T-shirt, Ace-bandage figure 8, or Anxiety-Wrap?

- Did U even *read the single post* on OTC calmatives, & their use?

Unless i have drastically misinterpreted the last post, she's made minimal progress in 6-months.
IMO, it's way past time to hire a pro to help U; at this rate, she'll die of old age with few alterations.
She's not happy, U aren't happy, & DIY isn't working.

here are 4 APDT-uk trainers in South York - 
Local Dog Trainers in South Yorkshire

3 of the 4 specifically work on behavior issues; 1 doesn't specify, but DOES work with adult dogs, 
so don't write her off; ASK each of the 4 if they've done B-Mod with dogs who had severe fears.
WATCH a class, if they offer group-classes, & see how they handle dogs, speak to owners, & so on.
Don't take Ur dog - just go to observe, after getting permission, of course.

if none of them seem promising, check with COAPE or APBC members.

I *would not* hire anyone who explains dog-behavior in terms of "pack leaders", insists that dominance 
is a formative precept in dogs, or who imitates CM/DW [Cesar Millan, a TV-host on Natl Geographic Channel] 
or the Dog-Lisseners of the UK: Jen Flannel & her graduates, or S.R.

If U find someone but wonder if they are genuinely credentialed, come back & ask - someone may have 
direct past experience of that person, or we may be able to direct U to someone known to be highly
qualified - bad help is not an advance over no help. 
.
.


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> UPDATE
> 
> U started the thread in early-April; it's now early-October. That's 6-months.
> Basically, U are saying U've made minimal progress? - if i'm reading it correctly.
> ...


If im honest, we had someone in the house who would take her out and think the advice given here is a load of ******** and hence any advancements would just go back to how she was.

Now that person is no longer in the household, we can really concentrate on this.

I read every link and every bit of advice given here, but with 3 separate people walking her (2 thinking it's ********), it was next to impossible to get anywhere.

So now with only 2 of us (and having convinced the other to follow advice here and elsewhere), we are trying to help her as much as possible.

Please don't see this as an unhappy dog. She is only unhappy around other dogs.

Just sent the first enquiry, someone who is local, will see what sort of views they have.

Cheers, and hopefully you will still be willing to offer further advice...


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

sammclean23 said:


> If im honest, we had someone in the house who would take her out and think the advice given here is a load of ******** and hence any advancements would just go back to how she was.
> 
> Now that person is no longer in the household, we can really concentrate on this.
> 
> ...


That's likely why it hasn't worked then, fear/stress/anxiety problems are the hardest to sort anyway and the longest as you can only work at one pace and that's the dogs, try and do too much too soon, or push the dog into more then it can cope with at any given time and you will get a set back, or not move any further forward. You have to be consistent all the time, and if you do get a set back, even revert back to a previous stage and then work forward again.

Hopefully you will be able to find someone with experience and successes and help you hands on. If the other person still thinks what they say and suggests is still a lot of ******* and wont follow it and hasn't got the patience though, you may as well not waste your money in the first place. Even a Brilliant behaviourist can only assess the dog and situations, and give you the modification plan to follow, they will monitor the progress too, and if needed may make adjustments or suggest some different ways that the dog may respond to better, if one way doesn't seem to be working so well but at the end of the day its up to you to follow it, carry it out the majority of the time and inbetween any follow up visits.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sammclean23 said:


> ...someone in the house... would take her out & [thought] the advice given here is a load of [hogwash] -
> hence any [improvement] would [fall back to status-quo].
> 
> Now that person is no longer in the household, we can really concentrate on this.
> ...


The biggest bummer is that 6 added months of "practicing" her worry about other dogs will have only
deepened the rut of her habitual response: *"Eeek! ... Run!"* 

It will mean her B-Mod will take a bit longer - however, it's still better than simply continuing on,
struggling to cope with each encounter. :thumbsup: There's never a better time to start than 'Now'.
.
.


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> The biggest bummer is that 6 added months of "practicing" her worry about other dogs will have only
> deepened the rut of her habitual response: *"Eeek! ... Run!"*
> 
> It will mean her B-Mod will take a bit longer - however, it's still better than simply continuing on,
> ...


I agree. Just spoken with Carol from Barkbusters (local for me). They specialise in behaviour and she stated my situation is one of the issues she's dealt with before. They offer 1 year for £295, or lifetime for £395.

Not sure what to think of this as have no experience in the field, but sounds promising.


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

sammclean23 said:


> I agree. Just spoken with Carol from Barkbusters (local for me). They specialise in behaviour and she stated my situation is one of the issues she's dealt with before. They offer 1 year for £295, or lifetime for £395.
> 
> Not sure what to think of this as have no experience in the field, but sounds promising.


Bark Busters is a franchise, for from £15K + VAT including a training fee and licence anyone could join.

Personally I would stick to CAPBT - COAPE Association of Pet Behaviourists and Trainers or the other professional Bodies that Terry, Leashed for Life suggested.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sammclean23 said:


> ...Just spoke with Carol from *Barkbusters*...
> 
> They *specialise in behaviour* and she stated my situation is one of the issues she's dealt with before.
> They offer 1 year for £295, or lifetime for £395.
> ...


As NewfMum commented, BarkBluster is a franchise operation - 
on their original website, they DID NOT want experienced dog-trainers, they want "dog lovers" - 
average pet-owners, not folks with any academic creds or mentoring, knowledge of behavior,
practical experience, etc.

They also bluntly stated that their franchisees' "training" lasted for *3 weeks*.
The idea that anyone who'd had 3 weeks of classroom instruction could do B-Mod is appalling.

I spent 3 YEARS under my mentor, from ages 10 to 12. I didn't begin to train other ppl's pets till i was 18-YO.
I spent 10-YEARS teaching cued behaviors before i began to offer B-Mod; i spent another 5 YEARS doing B-Mod 
before i added dogs with bite histories to my list of problem-behaviors; but BB could churn out a finished 
"trainer" AND behaviorist in only 21-days?!

To boot, BB uses these tools:
- a cotton-webbing martingale collar with a *chain loop* which catches in dog's hair & / or skin, 
pinching & pulling painfully, & making witch's locks of tangles on soft-coated dogs. This is standard issue - 
every customer gets one, with a matching [cheap, IMO - lightweight, loosely-woven] 5-ft cotton-webbing lead.

- water-balloons, to startle dogs.

- a loud, deep-pitched *"Bah!"* - again, to startle & interrupt.

- bagged *throw-chains*, 3 per client, on average, so U can stash one in each room; again, they are 
used to startle the dog & "interrupt" unwanted behavior.

- they *guarantee* results:
that sounds good, until U realize that it's impossible - no-one can warranty another person's behavior, 
& B-mod success is predicated on an owner *who follows the protocol designed for their dog,
& themselves - plus, the dog's behavior cannot be warrantied.*

Their "warranty" comes down to a promise that *if they fail, they'll come back* - for as long as it takes,
or if it works for a while & then falls apart, they will *return on request for the life of the dog, to work 
on the same problem-behavior*.
However, if U don't like their local franchisee, or if Ur dog hates her or him, or if U decide they stink, there is
no recourse; they don't refund money spent, even for the "lifetime" service. YOU cancelled - not their problem,
is it? U pulled out of the contract. :nonod: What a shame, eh? 

PERSONAL EXPERIENCE:
My friend & neighbor hired BB to "train" her happy, soft-natured but very friendly 7-MO Shih-tzu.
Over a 6-week period, they traumatized her puppy [franchise was a married couple] so badly that he was 
petrified of all men over 5'-10-inches [the male franchisee was over 6-ft tall], & walked THREE FEET out 
when placed on one's left, where they'd tried [& failed] to teach him to "heel". Conversely, on one's right,
he walked along just fine on a nice loose-leash... just as he had used to, on one's left, before they'd scared 
the p*ss out of him, yanking & checking & pulling his hair with the bedammed chain-loop, & shouting, *"Bah!"*

I have no idea what the H*** they used the water-balloons for, but as soft a pup as he was, he became 
a shy, shrinking, flinching, tail-down, suppressed, big-eyed little puffball, ready to bolt any moment.

It took over a *month* to get him to walk normally beside my left leg - no "training", just walking him 
on that side for brief periods, till he finally forgot his past 'lessons'.  It took almost 3-months to get him 
comfy with approaching TALL MALE strangers, & over 6-weeks to get him to approach female strangers!

Eventually, they argued the main-HQ into a partial refund, due to their extreme dissatisfaction with
the results of their expensive 'contract' - as they did not want the husband or wife franchisees to come back!
But the price-tag was that they were not allowed to talk about it, at all; thus, altho i saw the bad outcome
& worked on getting him to relax around strangers again, they could not tell me what had been done to him
to cause the huge change in his happy, friendly, outgoing but soft nature. He began as an untrained but happy
pup, & became a terrified shrinking dog in a month & a half.

For more about their methods, borrow a copy of the book, 
Bark Busters: Solving Your Dogs Behavioral Problems: Sylvia Wilson: 9780895948816: Amazon.com: Books

or buy it used or new on-line, or borrow it from the library [as i did]. The IMO asinine recommendations 
are by turns either appalling, or hysterically tho unintentionally funny - but none of them are protocols 
that i, or any trainer that i respect, would ever suggest.

Here's a review from another person - 


> _ Great Techniques - If you're training a working farm dog!!
> [ONE star]
> 
> By *Biotexts2* on August 5, 2011
> ...


DISCLAIMER -
since i was horrified or hysterical the whole time i was reading this, *my own review* is also 
to be found on that page; i have had no reason to change my opinion; when i read the book,
i'd previously read their website [within 6-mos, it no longer listed the length of class instruction, 
nor stipulated that they didn't want experienced trainers], & then read the book.

There are videos of BB trainers in action on Utube - check out a few. U will have an eye-opening, 
or possibly eye-popping, experience. :lol:


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

from 2010 - 
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/129871-bark-busters.html

a search for *"bark bluster" WITH quotes via PF-uk's search box* will bring up dozens of former threads,
including my encounter with the BB franchisees that i first met, when they moved into my apt-bldg in Va Beach, 
VA, while their house was being finished - :lol: it was a riot, they had 2 out of control, manic, nuisance-barking, 
yanking, lunging, fruitcake Cocker Spaniels, a M & F pair - that they allowed to leap out thru the opened 
sliding-door onto the 3rd-floor balcony, bark insanely at every pedestrian or resident who pulled in & parked 
within eye- or earshot, & then dart back into the open apartment - NO ONE could find the culprits for weeks 
after they'd moved in, drove us all nutz. :crazy:

They were really upset the day i caught the dogs still on the balcony, YELLED UP to the occupied apt 
to ask the person to PLEASE take the dogs in & shut the $%#@! Door, & when they did not & the barking 
continued, i phoned the local ACC & complained; an ACO responded, they were intensely embarrassed. :lol:

that was about 18-mos or even 2-yrs before they were hired by my friend & her husband - by that time,
they'd long since moved to their house in Chesapeake, VA, & my friend was a recent arrival in the apt complex.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

per this couple, who bought their franchise then, it was still *3 weeks* of 8-hour classes, 
5 days a week - so after 120 hours of instruction, U're ready to fix any & all canine problem-behaviors.

From the "*Boulder* (Colorado) *Source*": 
an article promoting their local business
"Bark Busters speaks ' dog, helps owners become pack leaders"

to say that i think that's woefully inadequate is the verbal equivalent of a bandaid on a hemorrhage.
It's a very-bad & unfunny joke, IMO.


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

Ah ****! There are times like this when I'm glad im not one of those that jump on anything straight away. 

Thanks for the detailed, eye opening replies. I have contacted the ones suggested though BB were just the first ones that got back to me. 

Will continue to read these replies and keep searching!! 

Thanks again, I feel as though I should write a huge reply in response to those but there's not much else I can add at the minute. 

Thanks!


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

This is proving difficult to find somebody local. 

Though, one positive i've been told is becuase my dog is not aggresive, it makes it slightly easier, though not by any means 'easy' in the long run. 

I feel like every time we take her out is furthering her fear - until we get something sorted with a behavourist. I know i can't, but I almost don't want to take her out until we have a plan in place. 

Will keep ringing round...though I have been made instantly aware that this will be expensive.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sammclean23 said:


> [It's] proving difficult to find somebody local.


Sheffield, UK - in South Yorkshire, right?

under TRAINER SEARCH, on the APDT-uk website:
Local Dog Trainers in South Yorkshire



> *Katie Patmore*
> Puppy
> Adult
> Clicker
> ...


there are also the COAPE & APBC websites - plus *IAABC canine-consultants*:

Find Dog, Cat, Parrot and Horse Behavior Consultants | IAABC



> Behavioural Consultant, Bio-Detection Training UK
> 
> *Nina Bondarenko, BA, CABC-SAC*
> Specialist Behavioural Consultant and Training Coach.
> ...


 CONTACT Contact - Nina Bondarenko
or TEL: 07789 870 689



sammclean23 said:


> I feel like every time we take her out [it worsens] her fear - until we get something sorted
> with a behavourist. I know i can't, but I almost don't want to take her out 'til we have a plan in place.


Did U buy a Calming-cap & habituate it?
Amazon.com: Thundershirt Calming Cap Medium: Pet Supplies

Sizing:
Thundershirt | Anxiety Treatment For Dogs | Thundershirt.com

A short description:
Clean Run: Calming Cap

Did U buy any OTC calmatives? 
Here's a SINGLE post about What, When, How, etc:

http://www.petforums.co.uk/1457713-post22.html

I'd also suggest buying a Quiet Spot tag-bag, or just wind a sturdy, WIDE rubber band around all 
Ur dog's tags, so that they do not rattle or jingle. It's a very common trigger for dog-reactivity, 
& the sound of YOUR dog's tags will alert / arouse other dogs, whose reactions will then 
touch of YOUR dog's response. All behavior is a conversation; her own stimuli [sight, sound, scent]
touch off responses in other dogs, so it's a cascade effect.

There's no reason not to start with stuff U can do, while trying to find competent help. :yesnod:
.
.


----------



## Bagrat (Jun 4, 2012)

Well worth silencing the jingling tags. Was a great help to us. Rubber bands as LFL said or if you use a webbing collar sew the tag on.


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

> leashedForLife said:
> 
> 
> > Sheffield, UK - in South Yorkshire, right?
> ...


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sammclean23 said:


> ...I actually live in Rotherham... around 6 miles out...
> 
> apparently, this short distance is out of... Sheffield's 'working area' & hence will charge
> much more to help.


if it makes that much difference, i'd take the dog *to* the trainer - surely the difference in fees would 
in turn, reimburse a good deal of the travel cost?

Another possibility:
have a hands-on meeting with extensive practice at the first appt; get homework via e-mail.

Send updates *& videos* of how U & the dog are doing; see the trainer in person in 2-weeks, while
tweaking the protocol via e-mail between face-to-face appts.

i've done this as a cost-cutting measure for clients whose dogs had serious issues, but who simply 
couldn't afford weekly meetings, let alone twice or thrice weekly. Most trainers are understanding - 
the need to work on the dog is imperative. There are often work-arounds, to make it more affordable.


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

Will be ringing someone else today. 

On a side note, I had no idea how effective distractions really are. 

We walked onto the usual field which had a number of dogs there, quite far but within sight. I was amazed that my dog was not interested at all and instead wanted her ball. 

It was like a different dog. She gave paw and sat on command for the ball, fetched it back every time (she always does but this time with dogs in the distance). With that going well, we carried on for a bit longer, with her coming back on command everytime. 

Even when another dog decided it wanted her ball too and ran next to her (did not see it coming!), she completely ignored it and came straight back to me, sat so I could put her lead on and we continued walking. 

Whilst we've been extremely focussed on her fears, it seems her discipline has improved dramatically without us meaning to improve anything. Aspects such as walking to heel, coming back, sitting, other commands have improved massively - could this be because i've been spending more time with her maybe? 

Whatever the reason, something has happened. 

Before someone mentions, yes I will be ordering the calming accesories suggested -just awaiting the funds


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sammclean23 said:


> On a side note, I had no idea how effective distractions really are.
> 
> We walked onto the usual field which had a number of dogs there, quite far but within sight.
> I was amazed that my dog was not interested at all and instead wanted her ball.
> ...


Could well be - time is the one thing in shortest supply in our lives, which are finite.  Spending time can make 
enormous differences, but i suspect the presence of her *ball* was a huge help. Something adored is a wonderful 
distraction, when there are [safely distant] not-loved other things, around.

Also, the timing of the nearby-dog was providential; if that had occurred very early in the game, she might have
fallen apart - as it was, she was already relaxed, intent on her fetch-game, & the other dog was a minor factor.
Good things! :thumbup: Thanks for sharing the happy news. :yesnod:


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> Could well be - time is the one thing in shortest supply in our lives, which are finite.  Spending time can make
> enormous differences, but i suspect the presence of her *ball* was a huge help. Something adored is a wonderful
> distraction, when there are [safely distant] not-loved other things, around.
> 
> ...


No problem! I know we're a long way from playing with other dogs, but the fact that she remained calm and most of all, ran back to ME when the dog came, was excellent. Will keep this updated


----------

