# Garra Rufa Fish



## Fishy person

As most of you are aware there is a growing trend for people to stick their feet in a tank full of fish, not just any fish but Garra rufa fish a member of the carp family originating from Turkey. I have no problem with people putting their feet into a tank full of fish as long as they are cleaned before they enter the tank. My concern is that some of these tanks are not designed to hold upto 200 fish in such a small body of water. I have now visited several establishments and looked at the filter systems basically there are two systems I have come accross the first is a canister filter bought off the shelf designed for much lower fish stocking levels. The second is a sump type add on filter medium housed in a chamber measureing around 150mm x 150mm x 250mm deep. Surely this should not be acceptable, I would have thought that the filter media should be at least 5-6 times more to cope with the 200 plus fish it has to handle. Speaking to the owners of these establishments they are unaware of conditions they are subjecting these fish to. All apear to have UV clarifiers/sterilisers fitted but looking at flow rates they can only operate as clarifiers but owners not knowing how they work told me they were sterilisers. Does anyone out there have more information on their local Garra Rufa shop and details regarding the filter system they operate. Please note I'm not for or against I just want information to hopfully enlighten and educate the people that are using these fish. I look forward to your comments


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## Guest

My concerns are also based on stocking densities and the fact that these fish are kept in a completely unnatural environment for extended periods. The biotope in which _Garra rufa_ is found varies, but they are commonly found in the Tigris and Euphrates river systems.

I walked by one of these 'fish spas' yesterday, the filtration system was based on several tanks joined to a centralized filter, which each tank having a standpipe with an uncovered outflow through which the fish could quite easily have been sucked down. Sadly most of the fish (aroundd 100 or so for each tank) were dead.

Many have also expressed concerns as to the hygiene and health risks of fish spas. Any open cuts or sores are prime targets for infection, and people who use these establishments are at a high risk of contracting diseases such as Fish TB, not only from the fish, but also from the water.

Needless to say, the sooner these establishments are banned, the better.


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## Fishy person

Thanks for your reply unfortunately i dont think this trend is going away soon but in the mean time if local authorities can raise the health standard high enough to ensure the best quality water is achived a majority of these places will not be able to conform with the standards unless they get a well designed tank and filter which costs a lot of money maybe to costly for them to continue. Or perhaps a course in fish keeping? with a certificate which has to be displayed.


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## Guest

Fishy person said:


> Thanks for your reply unfortunately i dont think this trend is going away soon but in the mean time if local authorities can raise the health standard high enough to ensure the best quality water is achived a majority of these places will not be able to conform with the standards unless they get a well designed tank and filter which costs a lot of money maybe to costly for them to continue. Or perhaps a course in fish keeping? with a certificate which has to be displayed.


Most of the staff who work in these fish spas are sales assistants, they most likely have absolutely no experience whatsoever in fishkeeping or any knowledge on how to properly maintain the equipment required for the upkeep of these fish.

A mandatory course in ornamental aquatics is a favourable suggestion, however regulations also have to be put in place which in turn would have to be enforced at a local level, and this means regular inspections by Defra.


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## Fishyfins

im very much against these fish spas. simply put, i dont feel that the health of the fish is as much of a prioriy as it should be.

the concept itself is interesting. i remember fondly being on holiday in various exotic locations, and the feeling of having fish/shrimp clean me. it is a good feeling, and i can understand why people would do it, and why there is a market.

but still, the fishes welfare comes before the pleasure of the guests, and i honestly do feel disgusted that such places exist! plus, as has been said above, there is the questionable health and hygene of such places.


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## Guest

Fishyfins said:


> im very much against these fish spas. simply put, i dont feel that the health of the fish is as much of a prioriy as it should be.
> 
> the concept itself is interesting. i remember fondly being on holiday in various exotic locations, and the feeling of having fish/shrimp clean me. it is a good feeling, and i can understand why people would do it, and why there is a market.
> 
> but still, the fishes welfare comes before the pleasure of the guests, and i honestly do feel disgusted that such places exist! plus, as has been said above, there is the questionable health and hygene of such places.


You're absolutely right, the profits come first in these places, the welfare of the fish comes somewhere further down the ladder, if at all. It really is a sorry sight to see these fish die in such large numbers.

I have read that these 'fish spas' can help to improve circulation in the limbs of diabetes patients. You may have heard stories of diabetes patients having whole limbs amputated due to a lack of oxygenated blood. However, no research has been done into this and Diabetes UK isn't currently advocating it.


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## Fishy person

It is said that the fish do improve psoriasis and improve other ailments which i must say if i suffered from psoriasis as a friend of mine does then i would probably try the treatment. As i said from the start i am neither for or against using garra rufa but i would like to see much better conditions in which they are kept.
I have kept fish for over 40 years cold water, tropical and marine I have bred live bearing and egg laying fish, I have designed filter systems for large koi ponds, water features, fish tanks and natural swimming pools it just annoy's me that these people are being lazy and not taking the right care and time to give these little fish the best enviroment they can.


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## Fishyfins

well, that didnt take long. went into my local primark to get some pieces i needed for a costume, and directly opposite has opened one of these very same fish spar establishments! first one in town, was its first day of opening today! will go back at some point for a good look.


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## Polsander

Hi There, 

I wonder if anyone may be able to help me. I am an environmental health officer and along with my colleague an animal welfare officer we are respnsibble for enforcing health and safety and animal welfare in premises providing garra rufa for skin treatments. We both have concerns regarding the conditions in which these fish may be kept, such as stocking densities, water quality, filtration use of UV etc . i would be very grateful for any information members may be able to provide.

thank you in advance.

Polsander


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## Guest

Polsander said:


> Hi There,
> 
> I wonder if anyone may be able to help me. I am an environmental health officer and along with my colleague an animal welfare officer we are respnsibble for enforcing health and safety and animal welfare in premises providing garra rufa for skin treatments. We both have concerns regarding the conditions in which these fish may be kept, such as stocking densities, water quality, filtration use of UV etc . i would be very grateful for any information members may be able to provide.
> 
> thank you in advance.
> 
> Polsander


I would estimate that the average fish spa tank holds something in the region of 75-100 litres of water before displacement. When connected to a centralized filter, the water between all of the tanks would transmit potentially harmful bacteria, unless the water is filtered by a UV sterilizer. However UV sterilizers aren't guaranteed to kill all bacteria, and the effectiveness of UV tubes diminishes over a period of several months.

The original post on this thread has quite rightly pointed out that the flow rates passing through the entire centralized sytem would be out of the limits for a UV sterilizer, leading the OP to believe that they are in fact Ultra-violet clarifiers. UV clarifers are much less powerful than UV sterilizers, as they are marketed by pond equipment retailers as intended for killing algal cells. Obviously some checks would have to be carried out to positively establish what type of UV devices are being used.

Each tank would hold anything between 50-120 fish for this 'treatment' to take effect. For the estimated volumes that I stated above, this would of course mean that the tanks are overstocked which would result in a great deal of water pollution due to such a high bioload placed on the filter and the concentration of nitrogenous waste produced not only by fish metabolism, but also any flakes of dead skin that collect in the bottom of the tanks.

It would be perfectly reasonable to say that these establishments take very little or no time to actively test the water by any means for pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. While none of these factors will affect the health of any customers, high concentrations of pollutants ultimately cause the fish to contract diseases and eventually die. Going by the number of dead fish I've seen, I am not sure if the corpses are removed before they have a chance to start decomposingg. Fish are known carriers of Tubercolosis and Salmonella which can potentially be transmitted to humans. Even the water itself can carry TB.


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## Fishy person

I have looked at the problem with the filters locally I have seen a couple of salon's have been a sump type filter in around 100ltr tanks with around 2ltrs of filter medium in a central chamber of a three chamber filter whilst there I informed the owner how to boost the filter efficency to cope with the level of fish she had in the tank around 150, 2inch fish. Thinking of her original filter and stocking levels works out at 75 fish=150 inches of fish per 1ltr of filter media. even with a UV steriliser working properly with the correct flow rates it is still a disaster to happen. Setting myself some boundries making a single unit 1000mm x 500mm 150 50mm fish using my filter design which holds a minimum 30ltrs of media this bring's the stocking level down to 5 fish= 10 inches of fish per 1ltr of filter media. I have asked one salon if I build a tank system for them to try it out, so I can monitor how effective it would be, they have agreed. I'll keep you posted as to the results. Meanwhile I have spoken to my local authority they have asked me to write up some guidelines and specifications as to what they should be looking for so they can set a standard. Interesting stuff I am amazed how deep I'm getting with this. Looks like I'll be busy for a while.


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## DJNB

Hi everyone. Newbie to the forum and Ill explain what we would like to do  it would be good if anyone has any advice and recommendations.

We intend to open a garra rufa spa. We are looking at 6 tanks each with a volume of 220 litres. Beneath each tank there will be a reserve containing 100 litres, with sump connection and filter systems capable of handling 1,500 litres per hour and a UV filter sterilizer to handle the same volume. We are thinking of 125 fish per tank, water at 30 degrees C and a pH of 7after each 15 minute treatment, no clients would enter the same tank again for at least another 15 minutes. Additional food in the evenings and in the morning would be in algae pill form

Basically, we want to improve drastically on the welfare of the fish that you find in your average salon where the are crammed into the small prefabricated tanks. Any thoughts and advice would be greatly appreciated. Criticism is welcome as we want to see what areas we can improve. But to start withdo you experts think we are heading along the right lines?

Cheers.


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## Guest

DJNB said:


> Hi everyone. Newbie to the forum and I'll explain what we would like to do - it would be good if anyone has any advice and recommendations.
> 
> We intend to open a garra rufa spa. We are looking at 6 tanks each with a volume of 220 litres. Beneath each tank there will be a reserve containing 100 litres, with sump connection and filter systems capable of handling 1,500 litres per hour and a UV filter sterilizer to handle the same volume. We are thinking of 125 fish per tank, water at 30 degrees C and a pH of 7…after each 15 minute treatment, no clients would enter the same tank again for at least another 15 minutes. Additional food in the evenings and in the morning would be in algae pill form…
> 
> Basically, we want to improve drastically on the welfare of the fish that you find in your average salon where the are crammed into the small prefabricated tanks. Any thoughts and advice would be greatly appreciated. Criticism is welcome as we want to see what areas we can improve. But to start with…do you experts think we are heading along the right lines?
> 
> Cheers.


Your plans sound better, but I still can't condone this as a business. The stocking densities are still sky high, and there's no mention of the total volume of biological filtration media to cope with waste.

Oviously nobody can stop you from opening shop, however if there are just a couple of things I would suggest, they would be carry out several large water changes whenever possible and always try to buy the biggest tanks possible.


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## DJNB

Thanks Luke.

We are still sorting out the finer points of the filter system with our specialists, and obviously we want it to be as good as possible. Originally we were thinking of using Eheim Pro3e canister filters, but have discarded that after looking around - it seems the best advice is to have a large reserve tank and put in as good a filter as possible there. Any do/don'ts on that score?

As you know, the more opinions we get the better our final decision can be. Lots of places recommend a 10-15% water change a week for normal aquariums. We are thinking that instead of large water changes we would do more regular water changes, possibly 5-10% per day.

We are also trying to get the tanks as large as possible, including the reserve tanks so we have a more stable system. The size of our salon will impact on that, but so far these are the sizes we are looking at - with more study we hope to be able to boost tank sizes. In your opinion, what would be the ideal size/stock density?

Thanks again.


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## Guest

DJNB said:


> Thanks Luke.
> 
> We are still sorting out the finer points of the filter system with our specialists, and obviously we want it to be as good as possible. Originally we were thinking of using Eheim Pro3e canister filters, but have discarded that after looking around - it seems the best advice is to have a large reserve tank and put in as good a filter as possible there. Any do/don'ts on that score?
> 
> As you know, the more opinions we get the better our final decision can be. Lots of places recommend a 10-15% water change a week for normal aquariums. We are thinking that instead of large water changes we would do more regular water changes, possibly 5-10% per day.
> 
> We are also trying to get the tanks as large as possible, including the reserve tanks so we have a more stable system. The size of our salon will impact on that, but so far these are the sizes we are looking at - with more study we hope to be able to boost tank sizes. In your opinion, what would be the ideal size/stock density?
> 
> Thanks again.


In an ideal world, it would be best to have each tank connected to it's own large sump. Connecting the tanks to a centralized filtration system would be the most cost-effective option, but it opens up the possibility of aquatic diseases (small background populations exist in all aquatic environments, including aquariums) being spread from one tank to another.

For both options, it would mean soliciting the services of a custom aquarium manufacturer to design a glass sump tank, which would then be filled with different types of biological, chemical and mechanical filter media. The sump tank could be fed with water either by gravity, with each tank having a bottom drain and a standpipe, or using pumps. A UV sterilizer and any other equipment you may wish to use (e.g Ozone generator) could be fitted inline with the solvent-weld piping on the outflow side of the sump.

Where maintenance is concerned, it wouldn't be a bad idea to close for about an hour to carry out periodic maintenance. A 5% daily water change would be ideal to help cope with the build-up of solid and chemical waste, and if you decide to choose a centralized system, the waste water can simply be taken from the sump.

To help keep aquatic diseases under control, keep one net for each tank and always sterilize the nets before and after use using a dilute solution of Methylene blue (be careful with this, it stains clothes and skin).

You'll also need another spare tank (a large food-grade plastic container would be fine) to hold water to top-up water lost by evaporation.


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## DJNB

Thanks again for your useful suggestions - the ideal world is what we are aiming for...The design so far stands that each of the 6 tanks are connected to their own sumps with each one having 100 litres in reserve (in theory that would be 327 litres of water for 125 fish - I would love to increase the litres but i dont know if that is feasible). We have discarded the idea of a centralized filtration system exactly because of the possibility of infections spreading. Unfortunately for us the cost is rocketing because of it, but it is our fish, our reputation and our business we are trying to look after, so the investment will be worth it in the long run. We are currently searching for quotes from custom manufacturers to fabricate the tanks (any advice on where to go for that would be a big help as well).

We hope to have the bio/chem/mech filters, thermostat/heater etc. all in place in the sump, and have been advised to have the sump fed by gravity. The gravity issue is causing us problems due to the amount of space available (we dont want our customers heads banging the ceiling!)  is the pump system feasible on such an operation? Also, with the ozone we have been advised against it as not entirely necessary and could possibly bring additional problems. A lot more research on my part is needed for that one to be decided I think. 

We will have a top-up tank filled with tap-water and with its own filter system to de-chlorinate before it goes in to the tanks to replace evaporation and for the daily water changes in each one. Each individual system will also have UV sterilizers, as will the outflow pipe from all of them before it goes down the drainand the waste water will come from the sumps. The water level in the fish tanks hopefully wont be yo-yo-ing up and down with this system. 

Thanks for the advice on the nets  hadnt realized that before. Anyway, we have lots of hurdles to overcome but slowly progress is being made


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## Guest

There are several custom aquarium manufacturers in the UK, one particular manufacturer that I would recommend is Seabray. They can design tanks exactly to your own specifications. Most modest-sized tanks can be made at their factory and then shipped out to you, but large installations will need to be built on-site wherever you plan to be based. They may give you a fairly sizeable discount for what would be a substantial order.

Where gravity is concerned, you could raise the tanks off the ground by about 25cm using sealed wood, concrete etc. This would allow room underneath for the pipework and allow enough distance for the force of gravity to drive the water towards the sump. For the water return from the sump, if you chose a centralized system you could have one large pump (e.g one of the larger Sequence models) with the piping fed into that pump from the sump tank split into other smaller pipes leading to each tank. To make my definition a bit clearer, I have outlined a rough plan of my idea below.










Ozone can be useful, but it can be dangerous. It's produced using a generator which passes an electrical discharge through air being drawn through the unit. This turns Oxygen gas (O2) into Ozone (O3) gas. After a short period of time of coming into contact with water it breaks back down into Oxygen gas. Typically, Ozone gas has a 'half-life' of 30 minutes, meaning that after 30 minutes, the Ozone gas injected into the water will be at half of its original concentration.

Ozone is a highly effective sterilizing agent, and will kill off any pathogenic bacteria, fungi and viruses. It will also burn off proteins and organics such as ammonia and nitrite, and it can also inhibit algal growth near the point of injection. The use of this gas also raises the redox potential of the water, making aquatic pathogens much more susceptible to oxidisation.

The use of Ozone gas can be dangerous as it is a powerful oxidising agent. Ozone gas leaking from the system in sufficient quantities can irritate the respiratory system and produce other symptoms such as nausea and headaches. However, providing Ozone gas is used properly and installed correctly, the benefits far outweigh the very minor risks.


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## Fishy person

HI djnb

I have spoken to EHIEM and to be honest their canniser filters are not powerful enough to cope with the demands of a Garra rufa tank. The sump idea sounds the better way to go. I have found a number of makers of Garra tanks already use this idea but the size of the filter media must be large enough to cope. One company I have found have been very helpful Garra Rufa Centre designing and supplying complete foot, hand and full body spa unit they pay particular attention to water quality and filtration. If you are decding to set up a spa then do it the right way. Keep me informed what you decide to do


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## Polsander

Thank you for all the information which is extremely useful.

Polsander


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## Fishy person

Another good source of information: Garra rufa centre.co.uk they build their own filter systems which is about the best I've seen so far. They are very knowledgable on different types of filtration, UV, flow rates and all their electrics are IP68 safety rated and each tank is individually filtered. They told me that they are designing a full body spa directed at skin clinics and the NHS. which involves Ozone, RO, UV, and much much more, looked like a professional set up unlike the one I went along to based at a market place in London very dissapointed with the conditions but customers were a plenty, even in this weather this place was offering a franchise I looked casually at their set ups very basic no heating in the shop/stall I'd like to know what the temp of the water would be at night? Also visited a spa in WARE great set up the owner was very knowledgable the tanks looked clean and the fish looked healthy. Filters could have been better. She has just opened a new shop in the high street not your average owner she seems to really care about the fish's health.


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## Polsander

Thank you for your information. Since my inital post a second outlet has opened in the region and following a visit/inspection an improvement Notice was served on the business requiring improvement works to the facilities housing the fish and the provision for documented feeding procedures.

Thank you again


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## fish spa

Chillinator said:


> You're absolutely right, the profits come first in these places, the welfare of the fish comes somewhere further down the ladder, if at all. It really is a sorry sight to see these fish die in such large numbers.
> 
> I have read that these 'fish spas' can help to improve circulation in the limbs of diabetes patients. You may have heard stories of diabetes patients having whole limbs amputated due to a lack of oxygenated blood. However, no research has been done into this and Diabetes UK isn't currently advocating it.


You're absolutely right! Diabetic patients are potentially in the 'high risk' group of clients. We don't allow diabetic patients into the spa unless they have been assessed firstly by a podiatrist. 
As a Podiatrist, and operator of a fish spa, I'm in the process of compiling a specific foot education course for other operators of the fish spas. I am meeting with Environmental health next week to confirm exactly what information needs to be covered. I think eventually this kind of course will be compulsory for all operators!
Don't take risks!!


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## fish spa

Fishy person said:


> As most of you are aware there is a growing trend for people to stick their feet in a tank full of fish, not just any fish but Garra rufa fish a member of the carp family originating from Turkey. I have no problem with people putting their feet into a tank full of fish as long as they are cleaned before they enter the tank. My concern is that some of these tanks are not designed to hold upto 200 fish in such a small body of water. I have now visited several establishments and looked at the filter systems basically there are two systems I have come accross the first is a canister filter bought off the shelf designed for much lower fish stocking levels. The second is a sump type add on filter medium housed in a chamber measureing around 150mm x 150mm x 250mm deep. Surely this should not be acceptable, I would have thought that the filter media should be at least 5-6 times more to cope with the 200 plus fish it has to handle. Speaking to the owners of these establishments they are unaware of conditions they are subjecting these fish to. All apear to have UV clarifiers/sterilisers fitted but looking at flow rates they can only operate as clarifiers but owners not knowing how they work told me they were sterilisers. Does anyone out there have more information on their local Garra Rufa shop and details regarding the filter system they operate. Please note I'm not for or against I just want information to hopfully enlighten and educate the people that are using these fish. I look forward to your comments


Its difficult to know what size of filter and UV steriliser to buy until you try it out! I was told by a few of the spa manufacturers that the 10-12 Watt UV ones were sufficient for upto 120 litre tanks, but after doing some of my own research decided to buy one about 5 times more powerful as they are only about £30 more each, and are more likely to sterilise rather than just clarify the water !

As a Podiatrist, and operator of a fish spa, I'm in the process of compiling a specific foot education course for other operators of the fish spas. I am meeting with Environmental health next week to confirm exactly what information needs to be covered. I think eventually this kind of course will be compulsory for all operators!
Don't take risks!!


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## fish spa

Chillinator said:


> Your plans sound better, but I still can't condone this as a business. The stocking densities are still sky high, and there's no mention of the total volume of biological filtration media to cope with waste.
> 
> Oviously nobody can stop you from opening shop, however if there are just a couple of things I would suggest, they would be carry out several large water changes whenever possible and always try to buy the biggest tanks possible.


How often would you do say a 10% water change? Some people recommend once a week, some say do it daily! 
Also how often would you recommend the canister type filters to be rinsed. And how long should you leave before doing the first filter rinse on a new system. I know not to use chlorinated water for this!
Thanks


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## fish spa

Fishy person said:


> It is said that the fish do improve psoriasis and improve other ailments which i must say if i suffered from psoriasis as a friend of mine does then i would probably try the treatment. As i said from the start i am neither for or against using garra rufa but i would like to see much better conditions in which they are kept.
> I have kept fish for over 40 years cold water, tropical and marine I have bred live bearing and egg laying fish, I have designed filter systems for large koi ponds, water features, fish tanks and natural swimming pools it just annoy's me that these people are being lazy and not taking the right care and time to give these little fish the best enviroment they can.


Would you recommend 1 litre of water per average size fish in a 100L tank?
Thanks


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## fish spa

Polsander said:


> Hi There,
> 
> I wonder if anyone may be able to help me. I am an environmental health officer and along with my colleague an animal welfare officer we are respnsibble for enforcing health and safety and animal welfare in premises providing garra rufa for skin treatments. We both have concerns regarding the conditions in which these fish may be kept, such as stocking densities, water quality, filtration use of UV etc . i would be very grateful for any information members may be able to provide.
> 
> thank you in advance.
> 
> Polsander


As a Podiatrist, and operator of a fish spa, I'm in the process of compiling a specific foot education course for other operators of the fish spas. I am meeting with Environmental health next week to confirm exactly what information needs to be covered. I think eventually this kind of course will be compulsory for all operators to reduce the risk to patients aswell as care for the fish!
Don't take risks!!


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## fish spa

Chillinator said:


> I would estimate that the average fish spa tank holds something in the region of 75-100 litres of water before displacement. When connected to a centralized filter, the water between all of the tanks would transmit potentially harmful bacteria, unless the water is filtered by a UV sterilizer. However UV sterilizers aren't guaranteed to kill all bacteria, and the effectiveness of UV tubes diminishes over a period of several months.
> 
> The original post on this thread has quite rightly pointed out that the flow rates passing through the entire centralized sytem would be out of the limits for a UV sterilizer, leading the OP to believe that they are in fact Ultra-violet clarifiers. UV clarifers are much less powerful than UV sterilizers, as they are marketed by pond equipment retailers as intended for killing algal cells. Obviously some checks would have to be carried out to positively establish what type of UV devices are being used.
> 
> Each tank would hold anything between 50-120 fish for this 'treatment' to take effect. For the estimated volumes that I stated above, this would of course mean that the tanks are overstocked which would result in a great deal of water pollution due to such a high bioload placed on the filter and the concentration of nitrogenous waste produced not only by fish metabolism, but also any flakes of dead skin that collect in the bottom of the tanks.
> 
> It would be perfectly reasonable to say that these establishments take very little or no time to actively test the water by any means for pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. While none of these factors will affect the health of any customers, high concentrations of pollutants ultimately cause the fish to contract diseases and eventually die. Going by the number of dead fish I've seen, I am not sure if the corpses are removed before they have a chance to start decomposingg. Fish are known carriers of Tubercolosis and Salmonella which can potentially be transmitted to humans. Even the water itself can carry TB.


I don't think that some of the operators of the spas realise that the water and fish require constant maintenance. Several of the spas have already closed down near us as all the fish have died! I have heard several sad stories like this! I've even heard that one salon had their fish in a whirlpool!! They are closed now!
because the spas are still relatively new, there is not enough info out there yet for 'non-fish experts' like myself. We are having to learn as we go along. Luckily I didn't rush into buying our system, and had time to do a little research re. caring for the fish, and also from a podiatry point of view. We operate our spa every other day on average, and don't allow clients one after another!

Spa operators must remember that its feet going into a fish tank, and not fish going into a foot bath!!
Luckily we have experienced people like yourself to help fill in the missing info!
I could do with some more info re. feeding, as i know if one over feeds, not only does it polute the water, but the fish aren't interested to go to the feet either!
Thanks


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## fish spa

Fishy person said:


> I have looked at the problem with the filters locally I have seen a couple of salon's have been a sump type filter in around 100ltr tanks with around 2ltrs of filter medium in a central chamber of a three chamber filter whilst there I informed the owner how to boost the filter efficency to cope with the level of fish she had in the tank around 150, 2inch fish. Thinking of her original filter and stocking levels works out at 75 fish=150 inches of fish per 1ltr of filter media. even with a UV steriliser working properly with the correct flow rates it is still a disaster to happen. Setting myself some boundries making a single unit 1000mm x 500mm 150 50mm fish using my filter design which holds a minimum 30ltrs of media this bring's the stocking level down to 5 fish= 10 inches of fish per 1ltr of filter media. I have asked one salon if I build a tank system for them to try it out, so I can monitor how effective it would be, they have agreed. I'll keep you posted as to the results. Meanwhile I have spoken to my local authority they have asked me to write up some guidelines and specifications as to what they should be looking for so they can set a standard. Interesting stuff I am amazed how deep I'm getting with this. Looks like I'll be busy for a while.


Do you have info re. the recommended operating temperatures, Ph, and the max. tolerable levels of Nitrites and Nitrates that can be expected?

As a Podiatrist, and operator of a fish spa, I'm in the process of compiling a specific foot education course for other operators of the fish spas. I am meeting with Environmental health next week to confirm exactly what information needs to be covered. I think eventually this kind of course will be compulsory for all operators to reduce the risk to patients aswell as care for the fish!
Don't take risks!!


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## fish spa

DJNB said:


> Hi everyone. Newbie to the forum and I'll explain what we would like to do - it would be good if anyone has any advice and recommendations.
> 
> We intend to open a garra rufa spa. We are looking at 6 tanks each with a volume of 220 litres. Beneath each tank there will be a reserve containing 100 litres, with sump connection and filter systems capable of handling 1,500 litres per hour and a UV filter sterilizer to handle the same volume. We are thinking of 125 fish per tank, water at 30 degrees C and a pH of 7…after each 15 minute treatment, no clients would enter the same tank again for at least another 15 minutes. Additional food in the evenings and in the morning would be in algae pill form…
> 
> Basically, we want to improve drastically on the welfare of the fish that you find in your average salon where the are crammed into the small prefabricated tanks. Any thoughts and advice would be greatly appreciated. Criticism is welcome as we want to see what areas we can improve. But to start with…do you experts think we are heading along the right lines?
> 
> Cheers.


Its good that you leave time between clients. Our system is suposed to 'cycle' the water every 6 minutes, but we leave it more than 15 minutes.
Was 30 degrees the recommended temperature? I'm guessing that the hotter the water, the more oxygen will be needed, and the higher the metabolism of the fish!
Are you using tap water to do the changes, is your tap water Ph7, and how often do you recommend the changes , and by how much %?

As a Podiatrist, and operator of a fish spa, I'm in the process of compiling a specific foot education course for other operators of the fish spas. I am meeting with Environmental health next week to confirm exactly what information needs to be covered. I think eventually this kind of course will be compulsory for all operators to reduce the risk to patients aswell as care for the fish!
Don't take risks!!

Thanks


----------



## Guest

fish spa said:


> Its difficult to know what size of filter and UV steriliser to buy until you try it out! I was told by a few of the spa manufacturers that the 10-12 Watt UV ones were sufficient for upto 120 litre tanks, but after doing some of my own research decided to buy one about 5 times more powerful as they are only about £30 more each, and are more likely to sterilise rather than just clarify the water !
> 
> As a Podiatrist, and operator of a fish spa, I'm in the process of compiling a specific foot education course for other operators of the fish spas. I am meeting with Environmental health next week to confirm exactly what information needs to be covered. I think eventually this kind of course will be compulsory for all operators!
> Don't take risks!!


Some very basic mathematical and technical knowledge on the equipment can help you choose the right stuff.



fish spa said:


> How often would you do say a 10% water change? Some people recommend once a week, some say do it daily!
> Also how often would you recommend the canister type filters to be rinsed. And how long should you leave before doing the first filter rinse on a new system. I know not to use chlorinated water for this!
> Thanks


Considering the the stocking densities of the fish spa tanks, I'd carry out a 25% water change every day.

External canisters filters probably won't be enough to keep on top of the huge amount of organic waste being pumped out; and you'd be cleaning them out on a daily basis to stop them from clogging. It would be much better to have each tank linked to its own glass sump, which would need to be filled with a copious amount of biological and mechanical filter media. You could also link the tanks to a centralized filter, however that increases the risks of aquatic diseases being transmitted from one tank to the next.



fish spa said:


> Would you recommend 1 litre of water per average size fish in a 100L tank?
> Thanks


Ideally one single_ Garra rufa_ needs at least 50 litres of tank volume. Unfortunately, this isn't feasible for the owners of these spas.


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## fish spa

Chillinator said:


> Some very basic mathematical and technical knowledge on the equipment can help you choose the right stuff.
> 
> Considering the the stocking densities of the fish spa tanks, I'd carry out a 25% water change every day.
> 
> External canisters filters probably won't be enough to keep on top of the huge amount of organic waste being pumped out; and you'd be cleaning them out on a daily basis to stop them from clogging. It would be much better to have each tank linked to its own glass sump, which would need to be filled with a copious amount of biological and mechanical filter media. You could also link the tanks to a centralized filter, however that increases the risks of aquatic diseases being transmitted from one tank to the next.
> 
> Thanks for your help.
> Won't a 25% daily change remove the 'good' components of the water though?
> how safe are the 'chlrine removing' additives that i can add to tap water? Is it ok to do this daily?
> As a non-fish expert, are the basic requirements to keep the Ph around7, the temperature stable at around 27-30, and to keep the nitrates and Nitrates and ammonia as near to zeo as possible?


----------



## Guest

fish spa said:


> Thanks for your help.
> Won't a 25% daily change remove the 'good' components of the water though?
> how safe are the 'chlrine removing' additives that i can add to tap water? Is it ok to do this daily?
> As a non-fish expert, are the basic requirements to keep the Ph around7, the temperature stable at around 27-30, and to keep the nitrates and Nitrates and ammonia as near to zeo as possible?


Water changes will be essential to keep toxins down to safe levels, and water changes help to replenish lost trace elements and minerals; as well as helping to keep the KH (carbonate hardness) and pH stable.

The chlorine/chloramine removers are perfectly safe and if they were harmful they wouldn't exist in the aquatics industry, the only thing they do is neutralize the harmful chlorine, chloramine and heavy metals from the tapwater.

A stable pH is much better than one that fluctuates, so simply try to maintain a pH as close to that of your tapwater. There's no point trying to adjust it for most freshwater species as any large or sudden fluctuations will put stress on the fish. As for ammonia and nitrite, these should not be allowed to rise above 0ppm for extended periods. Nitrate on the other hand isn't as harmful and most fish can tolerate concentrations upto 50ppm without any short-term consequences. Most tanks have at least some detectable nitrate.


----------



## fish spa

Chillinator said:


> Water changes will be essential to keep toxins down to safe levels, and water changes help to replenish lost trace elements and minerals; as well as helping to keep the KH (carbonate hardness) and pH stable.
> 
> The chlorine/chloramine removers are perfectly safe and if they were harmful they wouldn't exist in the aquatics industry, the only thing they do is neutralize the harmful chlorine, chloramine and heavy metals from the tapwater.
> 
> A stable pH is much better than one that fluctuates, so simply try to maintain a pH as close to that of your tapwater. There's no point trying to adjust it for most freshwater species as any large or sudden fluctuations will put stress on the fish. As for ammonia and nitrite, these should not be allowed to rise above 0ppm for extended periods. Nitrate on the other hand isn't as harmful and most fish can tolerate concentrations upto 50ppm without any short-term consequences. Most tanks have at least some detectable nitrate.


OK. Thanks very much


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## Fishy person

fish spa said:


> Do you have info re. the recommended operating temperatures, Ph, and the max. tolerable levels of Nitrites and Nitrates that can be expected?
> 
> As a Podiatrist, and operator of a fish spa, I'm in the process of compiling a specific foot education course for other operators of the fish spas. I am meeting with Environmental health next week to confirm exactly what information needs to be covered. I think eventually this kind of course will be compulsory for all operators to reduce the risk to patients aswell as care for the fish!
> Don't take risks!!


I would keep the temperature around 27-30deg the Ph for best results acclimatise the fish to your tap water's Ph. this will make keeping the Ph more stable when doing water changes. Ammonia ideally should be zero or near zero. don't forget if your Ammonia level rises your Nitrites will also start to rise as this is the next cycle of the natural process. Nitrites once again zero or near zero. and Nitrates try and get as lower reading as possible. Fish can tolorate slow changes if readings go above zero but if levels start to rise this is an indication that maintenance is needed either water changes and or removing debris from the tank or filter area. 
One more piece of information which may be helpfull some tanks when being set up and are coming to the time when the filter is maturing it is possible to get an algea bloom, this is where the Ammonia has turned to nitrites then to Nitrates which Algea love and your tank looks like you have been boiling cabbage in it, this can be overcome by 10% water changes done over several days until the water is clean and clear.


----------



## fish spa

Fishy person said:


> I would keep the temperature around 27-30deg the Ph for best results acclimatise the fish to your tap water's Ph. this will make keeping the Ph more stable when doing water changes. Ammonia ideally should be zero or near zero. don't forget if your Ammonia level rises your Nitrites will also start to rise as this is the next cycle of the natural process. Nitrites once again zero or near zero. and Nitrates try and get as lower reading as possible. Fish can tolorate slow changes if readings go above zero but if levels start to rise this is an indication that maintenance is needed either water changes and or removing debris from the tank or filter area.
> One more piece of information which may be helpfull some tanks when being set up and are coming to the time when the filter is maturing it is possible to get an algea bloom, this is where the Ammonia has turned to nitrites then to Nitrates which Algea love and your tank looks like you have been boiling cabbage in it, this can be overcome by 10% water changes done over several days until the water is clean and clear.


Dear Fishy
Thanks for the info. That's interesting. One of the 2 tanks did turn a 'greeny' colour, but my fish suppliers said that it was because it was slightly nearer to the window than the adjoining tank.
It has cleared considerably after several 10% water changes. The ph has now risen from 5-6 to 6.5/7 and the nitrites and nitrates have fallen. I reduced the tank temperature to 26 so slow down metabolism of the fish and bacteria growth, and the need for oxygen etc. Not sure if that was a good idea tho, but the fish generally seem happier.
There was a dead fish in the tank this afternoon which had a red mark on the side of its head! I'm not sure if its from a physical injury or attack, or if its some kind of disease? I saw the same last week in the other tank! I took a pic, but not sure if i can add it on here?? I will try to send it in the next post...
Thanks


----------



## fish spa

Fishy person said:


> I would keep the temperature around 27-30deg the Ph for best results acclimatise the fish to your tap water's Ph. this will make keeping the Ph more stable when doing water changes. Ammonia ideally should be zero or near zero. don't forget if your Ammonia level rises your Nitrites will also start to rise as this is the next cycle of the natural process. Nitrites once again zero or near zero. and Nitrates try and get as lower reading as possible. Fish can tolorate slow changes if readings go above zero but if levels start to rise this is an indication that maintenance is needed either water changes and or removing debris from the tank or filter area.
> One more piece of information which may be helpfull some tanks when being set up and are coming to the time when the filter is maturing it is possible to get an algea bloom, this is where the Ammonia has turned to nitrites then to Nitrates which Algea love and your tank looks like you have been boiling cabbage in it, this can be overcome by 10% water changes done over several days until the water is clean and clear.


Garra Rufa


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## Fishy person

Back again with some updates went along and met with the staff at Garra rufa centre had a good chat was pleasantly suprised I was expecting limited resources being put in to design and functionality of their systems. But it wasn't the case. In the back of the showroom is a setup which would grace any high quality fish house with facilities to mature large amounts of water and filter media. They also supply local fish retailers with RO and Salt water. New individually filtered holding tanks all the latest testing equipment, which they keep daily records. I must have spent 2 hours talking about welfare of the fish asking If I was to buy a Garra Rufa Fish tank what would be the proceedure. Answer was that they would set the tank up regardless of location with Matured media and water then test the water before putting in a few fish the tests would be carried out for a few days to make sure the filter was up and running then more fish would be introduced with regular water changes being made. I said what if the conditions were not right they said the fish will be held back until the conditions improved. I got a sneak look at the filter and the filter is the biggest and most powerful I seen to date. They are putting in a lot of effort which is encouraging be interesting if it continues I'll plan another visit in a couple of months.

Just put together some advice for anyone considering buying a Garra Rufa system.

*Checklist for what to look for in a Garra Rufa system*
1.	Filtration Make sure it is powerful enough for the task it should be able to cope with twice the amount of fish that is used for a treatment.
2.	Safety with electrics make sure the electrics are IP6 rated and that they are fused and switched with a RCD fitted. NO EXTENSION LEADS.
3.	Heaters should be of a ceramic material (not glass) and have a cut out if the heater gets too hot.
4.	Cabinet should be made of a material that is not a conductor of electric (metal) unless properly earthed and insulated.
5.	Cabinet should not be made of particle / chipboard this will swell when moist and harbour bacteria.
6.	No equipment in the treatment side of the spa this should be free on any obstacles that may cause harm to customer's feet. 
7.	Tank cover Garra Rufa will jump out of the tank so a substantial cover is needed to protect the fish from jumping out and to protect your customers and spa from accidents when it is not in use.
8.	Make sure your supplier has the expertise to give back up if needed
9.	Guarantees on equipment 
10.	Lastly does it look professional, will it fit in with your colour scheme 
If you have satisfied yourself with the ten questions above then you should have picked the right spa for you. Remember these are guidelines that are not enforced but it gives you somewhere to start.

Attended the Boat show at Excel a couple of weeks ago lo and behold a Garra Rufa stand with a couple of tanks being very busy. I spoke to one of the guys running it said he didn't know much about the filter setup it looked very basic I described a sump type filter he said that sounds about right. not many fish in each tank and not very old but people still queing up. 
I was suprised that what looked like an extension lead coming out of the tank unit no sign of a RCD. Naughty Excel. Off soon to see a Garra Rufa Tank made for metal +water+electricity give more feedback when I get it.


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## fish spa

Fishy person said:


> I would keep the temperature around 27-30deg the Ph for best results acclimatise the fish to your tap water's Ph. this will make keeping the Ph more stable when doing water changes. Ammonia ideally should be zero or near zero. don't forget if your Ammonia level rises your Nitrites will also start to rise as this is the next cycle of the natural process. Nitrites once again zero or near zero. and Nitrates try and get as lower reading as possible. Fish can tolorate slow changes if readings go above zero but if levels start to rise this is an indication that maintenance is needed either water changes and or removing debris from the tank or filter area.
> One more piece of information which may be helpfull some tanks when being set up and are coming to the time when the filter is maturing it is possible to get an algea bloom, this is where the Ammonia has turned to nitrites then to Nitrates which Algea love and your tank looks like you have been boiling cabbage in it, this can be overcome by 10% water changes done over several days until the water is clean and clear.


I don't know why i keep losing fish in one of the tanks. I have been doing a 20% water change a few times a week as the water was a green colour, and the water looks better, but The nitrite levels wont fall! i've been adding live bacteria to the filter to try and boost the friendly bacteria cycle, but not making much difference so far!

i'm also finding a totally stripped, eaten fish in there some mornings. Am i not feeding them enough?

I also notice some of the fish have had red marks like bruises on their sides, maybe from them attacking each other. I think these are usually the next ones to be eaten! some have red mouths, almost looks like red lipstick! Any ideas?
The Aquarium that maintain the tanks say its too early to wash the sponges in the canisters, but the tanks have been used for 4 months now. Seems along time to me tho?
Thanks
M


----------



## Guest

fish spa said:


> I don't know why i keep losing fish in one of the tanks. I have been doing a 20% water change a few times a week as the water was a green colour, and the water looks better, but The nitrite levels wont fall! i've been adding live bacteria to the filter to try and boost the friendly bacteria cycle, but not making much difference so far!
> 
> i'm also finding a totally stripped, eaten fish in there some mornings. Am i not feeding them enough?
> 
> I also notice some of the fish have had red marks like bruises on their sides, maybe from them attacking each other. I think these are usually the next ones to be eaten! some have red mouths, almost looks like red lipstick! Any ideas?
> The Aquarium that maintain the tanks say its too early to wash the sponges in the canisters, but the tanks have been used for 4 months now. Seems along time to me tho?
> Thanks
> M


Have you tested the water for ammonia? If too many fish were added in one go or if the filtration system wasn't cycled properly, you'll have serious issues with poor water quality. The ammonia is broken down during the nitrogen cycle to nitrite, hence the reason why you have to test for ammonia as this is the source of the nitrite. If the filter is cycled properly you should notice a pattern concerning rising and falling levels of ammonia and nitrite, showing that the bacteria are doing their job.

The reason why you're finding dead fish is not cannibalism in the normal sense, but due to poor water quality. The corpse of a dead fish will be consumed to almost nothing within a few hours by microorganisms in the water and the other fish. It may sound gruesome, but it is simply one of nature's necessary processes that must take place. With the poor water quality, offering the fish more food (some of which will go uneaten, decompose and pollute the water further) is the last thing you should do.

The red marks you describe could be burns from high ammonia levels. Test the water as I suggested earlier.

Finally, I recommend rinsing the sponges roughly every 2-3 weeks to remove a build-up of detritus that can clog the media and reduce water flow, in turn reducing the amount of oxygen getting to the bacteria. It's important to remember that you must NOT rinse the media in tapwater, as the toxic chlorine and chloramines will eradicate the entire bacterial population. Rinse the media in old aquarium water instead; a quick squeeze for sponge media is quite sufficient. You can normally tell when the media needs rinsing by looking out for noticeable reductions in the return water flow rate from the filter.


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## peteh

We have just opened a spa today (it is an add-on to an existing hair/beauty salon rather than the shopping centre type) and I am keen to increase my understanding of fish keeping way beyond what has been passed on by the spa manufacturer and therefore any info would be most welcome.

We have 4 tanks which are individual units no flow between them. Each contains approx 60 fish. 10% water change each morning and night. Temp has been set at 26 degres although reading this forum I wonder if that is too low and an increase to 28 would be advisable. One pellet of food crushed and fed to the fish after the night time water change. Dip readings taken in each tank 10 minutes after every morning water change.

We are based on the IOM and I was devastated to lose 3 fish on the journey over from the UK so we are definitely not approaching this with a couldn't care less attitude. We're obviously expecting to make money from this but I want the environment to be as good for the fish as it possibly can be. I put my own feet in the tank yesterday to try it out and I ended up describing it as like having 60 labrador puupies trying to snuggle into you - except they're fish!


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## Guest

You need to think about the chemical effects of increasing the temperature. Fish produce ammonia (NH3-) as part of their metabolism, very much like ammonia found in human urine as a result of cell respiration.

As you may know, ammonia is very toxic to fish, even in tiny concentrations. The concentration of ammonia does of course increase if it was in a smaller volume of water. The bacteria in your filter break down the ammonia into nitrite (NO2), which is equally as dangerous because it binds to the haemoglobin in red blood cells and reduces their ability to transport oxygen, giving rise to a condition called 'brown blood disease'.

The toxicity of ammonia and nitrite increases with pH and temperature. Increasing the temperature by two degrees would increase the toxicity of these substances ten-fold, and it's not worth increasing the temperature by just two degrees as it won't make much of a difference to the overall well-being of the fish.


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## dnf

Hi,

I'm thinking of investing in a Garra rufa spa and was wondering if one of you may have a list that could help me make sure this business is doing things the right way and complying with future regulations?

Thank you in advance

Dan


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## Guest

dnf said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm thinking of investing in a Garra rufa spa and was wondering if one of you may have a list that could help me make sure this business is doing things the right way and complying with future regulations?
> 
> Thank you in advance
> 
> Dan


A list of what exactly? Equipment? Without wanting to sound rude, I think the UK has enough of these fish spas without more opening up shop. Health experts have already highlighted the risks of contracting fungal infections and diseases such as HIV through open cuts and sores. It's easy to deduce from this information that increasing the number of fish spas will increase the risk of exposure to one of these diseases. Now that potential customers are hopefully aware of this they will make a well-educated choice of not giving these businesses their money.

If you absolutely insist on setting up a fish spa as a business, I would suggest doing your homework in aquatic chemistry, equipment, maintenance and aquatic diseases before you start investing.


----------



## dnf

Chillinator said:


> A list of what exactly? Equipment? Without wanting to sound rude, I think the UK has enough of these fish spas without more opening up shop. Health experts have already highlighted the risks of contracting fungal infections and diseases such as HIV through open cuts and sores. It's easy to deduce from this information that increasing the number of fish spas will increase the risk of exposure to one of these diseases. Now that potential customers are hopefully aware of this they will make a well-educated choice of not giving these businesses their money.
> 
> If you absolutely insist on setting up a fish spa as a business, I would suggest doing your homework in aquatic chemistry, equipment, maintenance and aquatic diseases before you start investing.


I was looking into franchise opportunities such as this one Are you interested in a Appyfeet Franchise?
but reading your thread i would like to make sure this business is on top of all health issues and that they look after their fish properly.
I think you are a little extreme with your reaction after all if you visit and eat in a restaurant your may get all the same diseases if they don't respect basic health and safety, and in that respect i think fish spa's are OK so long as we make sure they are looked into and they follow the guide lines...


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## Guest

dnf said:


> I was looking into franchise opportunities such as this one Are you interested in a Appyfeet Franchise?
> but reading your thread i would like to make sure this business is on top of all health issues and that they look after their fish properly.
> I think you are a little extreme with your reaction after all if you visit and eat in a restaurant your may get all the same diseases if they don't respect basic health and safety, and in that respect i think fish spa's are OK so long as we make sure they are looked into and they follow the guide lines...


My reaction is not 'extreme', a restaurant is a completely different establishment to a 'fish spa', where the exposure to contracting a disease via food is more or less neglible in comparison to a tank of water where pathogenic microorganisms are rife.

In any case, your argument that you could contract the same diseases that I mentioned earlier from a restaurant as well as a fish spa is a moot point, as it's _impossible_ to contract HIV or fungal infections via the ingestion of food. Fish spas are practically a biological health hazard, since untrained staff are likely to neglect the tanks.


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## dnf

Chillinator said:


> My reaction is not 'extreme', a restaurant is a completely different establishment to a 'fish spa', where the exposure to contracting a disease via food is more or less neglible in comparison to a tank of water where pathogenic microorganisms are rife.
> 
> In any case, your argument that you could contract the same diseases that I mentioned earlier from a restaurant as well as a fish spa is a moot point, as it's _impossible_ to contract HIV or fungal infections via the ingestion of food. Fish spas are practically a biological health hazard, since untrained staff are likely to neglect the tanks.


A kitchen worker with HIV that cut his hand... and you eat his blood will result in an infection... meet fish and other food can carry all kinds of diseases, in fact i stopped eating Indian food after spending a night in hospital due to "untrained staff" that fed me with some rotten meet.

Any way what you're saying is that the spa staff simply need training!


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## hawksport

No matter how well trained staff are you can't sanitise a fish like you can a saucepan


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## Guest

dnf said:


> A kitchen worker with HIV that cut his hand... and you eat his blood will result in an infection... meet fish and other food can carry all kinds of diseases, in fact i stopped eating Indian food after spending a night in hospital due to "untrained staff" that fed me with some rotten meet.


I shall say this again, it is biologically _impossible_ and there have been _no _documented medical cases of HIV contraction through ingestion of food or any other substances. HIV is contracted via direct transmission between blood and bodily fluids through cuts, infected hypodermic needles or through SI.

The risk of contracting a disease from food from a restaurant that actually cooks the food properly is negligible as the entire cooking process destroys bacteria and other pathogens on the food.


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## dnf

Chillinator said:


> I shall say this again, it is biologically _impossible_ and there have been _no _documented medical cases of HIV contraction through ingestion of food or any other substances. HIV is contracted via direct transmission between blood and bodily fluids through cuts, infected hypodermic needles or through SI.
> 
> The risk of contracting a disease from food from a restaurant that actually cooks the food properly is negligible as the entire cooking process destroys bacteria and other pathogens on the food.


I hope for you that these spa's will stop working although very unlikely.
however your point was taken.

if i was you, start by stopping the promoted links at the bottom of this page


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## Guest

dnf said:


> if i was you, start by stopping the promoted links at the bottom of this page


I don't own this site, so I can't remove the ad links. Either way, the results are generated automatically by google in reference to what the subject of the page is.


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## Fishy person

Chillinator said:


> I shall say this again, it is biologically _impossible_ and there have been _no _documented medical cases of HIV contraction through ingestion of food or any other substances. HIV is contracted via direct transmission between blood and bodily fluids through cuts, infected hypodermic needles or through SI.
> 
> The risk of contracting a disease from food from a restaurant that actually cooks the food properly is negligible as the entire cooking process destroys bacteria and other pathogens on the food.


Hi Chillinator
I have been reading your advice and find it interesting, you say it's impossible to contract HIV through ingestion of food, and that there are no documented medical cases. I have searched for any infections being passed by Garra rufa fish including fish TB and didn't find any. But I did find three reported cases of fish TB 1. A fish worker cleaning out a crabshell and cut his hand. 2. A woman being bit by a dolphin. 3. An aquarist moving coral in his marine tank and cutting his hand. 
If you know of any Garra rufa cases i would be interested.

My understanding is the only way anyone can be infected is if three things are in place. 1. Entry A way into the body via a cut abrasion open wound etc. 2. Quality the quality of infectious fluid i.e blood saliva, sweat etc has sufficient amount of infectious material 3. Quantitythere has to be enough infectious fluid to infect.
If the customer's feet are inspected and there is no entry point via broken skin, abrasion, cut etc. then number 1. Entry has been eliminated then infection can not take place.
I have been researching Garra rufa for several months now, as I originally said when i first started this I have an open mind neither for or against, I have tried to inform people of the good and bad points to some of the systems on sale. But with the more knowledge and information I have aquired speaking to more marine biologists than you've had hot dinners (no pun intended)LOL, there is a considerable amount of unsafe equipment being sold which is not only harmful for humans but fish as well. I have arranged several meetings with enviromental officers to find out what they know about Garra rufa fish and the treatments being offered what are they looking for and hopefully to set a standard of safety. This should help to eliminate some of bad pieces of equipment on sale and improve the rest. Sorry for the rant but I am working nights and I'm tired and wished I was at home in bed.


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## Guest

There's a couple of flaws with your theory...

1) You won't find any reported medical cases of HIV transmission by fish. Garra rufa isn't a carrier of HIV, it's the water that can become infected with the virus from customers with cuts and open sores on their skin.

2) There's no guarantee that the staff will actually examine every customer properly, there's going be a slip up at some point. There's also no guarantee that the staff won't accidentally miss a cut or sore on the skin.

The fact is, you can't set a 'standard' of safety where living organisms are involved. 

I'd be very interested to hear which institute the marine biologists you mentioned work for.


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## Fishy person

Once again you are saying there's no guarantee that the staff will actually examine every customer properly, there's going be a slip up at some point. There's also no guarantee that the staff won't accidentally miss a cut or sore on the skin. It sounds like hopeful thinking not based on actual evidence. 
Scientists and medical authorities agree that HIV does not survive well outside the body, making the possibility of environmental transmission remote.Some people fear that HIV might be transmitted in other ways; however,no scientific evidence to support any of these fears has been found. If HIV were being transmitted through other routes (such as through air,
water, or insects),

The safety standards I was refering to was the equipment, also this could include training of staff on how to examine customers feet.


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## Polsander

HPA statement on fish spa pedicures
10 March 2011

The Health Protection Agency (HPA) and Health Protection Scotland are currently unaware of any cases of infection associated with the use of fish spas pedicures in the UK.


Based on theoretical evidence and expert opinion, the HPA deems the risk of catching an infection from a Garra rufa fish foot spa to be very small. However, following a number of enquiries to the HPA from local environmental health officers, the HPA, Health Protection Scotland and the Health and Safety Laboratory are currently examining the most up to date evidence and will publish practical advice to help both salons and the public to minimise any possible risk in due course.

Polsander


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## Guest

The thing is, you won't find any information on infections related to fish spas, because these businesses haven't been open long enough for any problems to arise yet.

When you're working with animals the risk of contracting a disease will always exist, regardless of what 'expert' advice the HPA and HPS dish out.

Although HIV does not survive for long periods without a host (it is after all, a virus), there is a still a big risk of infection being transmitted between one customer to another due to infected blood or other bodily fluids seeping out of a small cut which the staff may not have noticed if customers were examined.

If the period of time between one customer with HIV leaving one of the spa tanks and another HIV customer entering was say around 10-15 minutes, enough of the virus would still exist to be able to infect the next customer. If this was a couple of hours, the risk would be quite negligible. That does of course depend on _both_ customers having a small open cut or sore somewhere on the legs or the feet.

Remember, it's _theoretical_ evidence that's being used, not proven scientific evidence. The two have a fairly substantial contrast.

We shall have to wait and see.


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## Fishy person

Re: Garra Rufa Fish

But you seem to be missing my point. This "treatment" is not going away and is getting more popular. So it seems logical to me that if people are going to start up Garra Rufa spas then there shold be a code of practice and also a safety standard of equipment to regulate and ensure staff have had formal training (certificate) I understand that with the best will in the world it can't be guaranteed that it's 100% safe but what is.
I just think that your vast knowledge could be used in a positive way and help these people looking for advice on setting up a system or buying from a company who probably don't have the experience themselves to build a system capable of looking after garra rufa in such large numbers. 
until it is proven one way or another.


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## Guest

Fishy person said:


> Re: Garra Rufa Fish
> 
> But you seem to be missing my point. This "treatment" is not going away and is getting more popular. So it seems logical to me that if people are going to start up Garra Rufa spas then there shold be a code of practice and also a safety standard of equipment to regulate and ensure staff have had formal training (certificate) I understand that with the best will in the world it can't be guaranteed that it's 100% safe but what is.
> I just think that your vast knowledge could be used in a positive way and help these people looking for advice on setting up a system or buying from a company who probably don't have the experience themselves to build a system capable of looking after garra rufa in such large numbers.
> until it is proven one way or another.


I'm sorry, but I'm reluctant to use my 'vast knowledge' (which is a bit of an overstatement, I'm not an expert) to help people with something that's against my own ethics. If they are absolutely desperate to set up a fish spa, then I'll at least point them in the right direction, but nothing more.

Although fish spas may be here to stay, I stand by my belief that these 'treatments' should be restricted to medical uses where they can be used to relieve the symptoms of chronic dermatological conditions and diabetes. In which case, the use of 'fish spas' should only really be allowed in hospitals or clinics.

Fish are not a beauty treatment, and nor are they there to be exploited by budding entrepeneurs; many of whom are clearly in it just to make a fast buck going by the conditions I've seen these fish being kept in.

Staff can have all the 'training' in the world, it doesn't necessarily make them good fishkeepers.


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## Guest

I can provide further information in support of a ban on fish spas within the UK, using sources at Practical Fishkeeping.

Advocates of fish spa treatments claim that _Garra rufa_ secrete an enzyme in their saliva called Diathanol which reportedly promotes the healing process of various skin conditions.

However, Dr Alastair Lyndon - a well known lecturer in fish nutrition and enzymes - says differently. Believe it or not, Diathanol is a defunct chemical name which was used upto the 1960's to describe a certain group of organic chemicals. Diathanol is not an enzyme and nor has the name been used in any scientific research papers and other literature. This term is being used as a marketing ploy by fish spas.

Dr Lyndon also quite rightly points out that in general, fish don't possess salivary glands, further casting a dark shadow over the fish spa industry.

On the note of health risks, HIV and Fish TB are not the only concerns. Athlete's foot and verrucas thrive in the damp environment found in fish spas, very much like they do in indoor swimming pools. Many zoonotic diseases, including _Erysipelothrix, Mycobacterium, Vibrio, Aeromonas_, _Edwardsiell_ and _Nocardia_ are all capable of spreading from fish to humans. It is clearly pointed out in the PFK article that immune compromised people are at an elevated risk of infection.

According to the article, recent scientific studies in China found _Plesiomonas_ and _Aeromonas_, both of which result in gastroenteritis followed by septicemia.

Despite the use of Ultra-violet (UV) sterilisation, Mycobacteria are not killed by expoure to UV. This effectively allows them to continue thriving in the fish spa environment.

Most companies are supplied with information supplied by the same people who supplied them with the equipment and fish in the first place. Very few fish spas have trained staff and it is safe to say that 99.9% of fish sps have staff with absolutely no fishkeeping experience. Spa establishments are saying that they're only guaranteeing the lifespan of their fish at a few weeks.

Pretty worrying huh? Read on, as this as they say is where the plot thickens...

We fishkeepers would normally recommend a tank size of around 90 x 46 x 46cm as a minimum for maybe around 4-5 _Garra rufa_, given an average adult size of 15cm/6". In contrast, spa tanks are usually much smaller than this and the stocking densities are enough to make any sane person feel sick: 150-200 fish per tank. That's right folks, 150-200 fish that can grow upto 15cm in length being kept in tanks that hold less water than the average bath tub.

Foraging behaviour in fish kicks in when all other food sources are exhausted, the same applies for_ Garra rufa_ which begin to forage on dead skin when no other food is available. Dead skin isn't particularly nutritious and it consists primarily of an indigestible dietary protein called Keratin.

From this it is clear that fish spa owners are deliberately starving their fish in order to make a fast buck.

The sooner the government realizes that this practice is a health risk, cruelty to animals and enforces a ban, the better.


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## modelbaron

A new Garra Rufa outlet has opened close by and I have spoken with the young lady who is running the unit. Two weeks before opening she had no idea about how it all works, "but was looking forward to going on a course to find out how it all works."

I did not let on that I had worked in a pet and aquatic retailers for several years so it was easy to spot that she has NO IDEA of fish welfare.

I asked about the chance of cross infection to which she said that this was not possible as each client will have to sign a disclaimer stating they do not have open sores or certain infections. A lot of faith and as much ignorance is being placed in this bit of paper.


No UV lighting used in this outlet. The water is changed every three days with a filter system cycling the water 15 times per hour for the tank size.

Certainly in it for the money.


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## Guest

modelbaron said:


> Certainly in it for the money.


Aren't they all? 

I never knew a piece of paper could prevent infection, a medical breakthrough! :lol:


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## c4roline

Thank you for this long thread, I have read it all with great interest after googling garra rufa fish. I have long wanted to have this done to my feet after seeing bits on Tv about this and today while walking through York down stonegate I was handed a leaflet from a new shop opening , I went in to check it out and it was packed with women with their feet in the tanks and was very excited about going back when I get time, however as I walked away I started to ask myself about the welfare of the fish ( I have been an aquarium and pond keeper for over 20 years, so not sure why this question didnt enter my head immediately really!) I was worried about the filters and how often water was changed etc etc and about those little fish and secondly I started to think about what about other people with diseases and catching anything from the water ! so that is why I decided to google it. I have decided after reading all the different sides about this on this thread I certainly will not be going in to have my feet done now and will advise others against this. I really did love the idea and had always said I would have a go but do not feel happy about the whole franshise idea and people who are not qualified looking after the animals and the possible contamination, I feel they are just doing it because its the latest trend and money can be made. I just had not thought very deeply about it until I actually saw these fish and these questions had bothered me, So thank you for all the different points of view on this thread and I hope others take a step back and look into it further before jumpin in with both feet!


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## aquaticstore.com

If you check out the the goverment agency, Health Protection Agency (hpa)that has carried out test on these spa's they have concluded, that as yet there is no evidence of cross infections.

If the spa is using a good, high standartd proffesional system, there are a lot that arn't, then the filter and steralizer system, should eradicate any disease spores, infact i go swimming a lot and have never caught any dieseases from the water, so try not to let this worry you.

As for the fish, in our spa and the many we have supplied and installed, the fish seen to be very happy and thrive in thier environment, infact once you open the lid, they are lining up in antisipaction.

aquaticstore.com


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## new westie owner

Ive seen mums letting kids as young as 6 yrs use them WHY


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## Guest

aquaticstore.com said:


> If you check out the the goverment agency, Health Protection Agency (hpa)that has carried out test on these spa's they have concluded, that as yet there is no evidence of cross infections.
> 
> If the spa is using a good, high standartd proffesional system, there are a lot that arn't, then the filter and steralizer system, should eradicate any disease spores, infact i go swimming a lot and have never caught any dieseases from the water, so try not to let this worry you.
> 
> As for the fish, in our spa and the many we have supplied and installed, the fish seen to be very happy and thrive in thier environment, infact once you open the lid, they are lining up in antisipaction.
> 
> aquaticstore.com


The tests by the HPA are still ongoing according to a source at Practical Fishkeeping. Originally the main fears were HIV infection, but it now includes Mycobacteria, _Aeromonas_, Fungal and Verruca infections, to name a few. In the warm, humid conditions of a fish spa, these infections thrive and UV sterilisation doesn't kill Mycobacteria. I'd suggest reading the article by Nicolette Craig in the May 2011 issue of PFK.

A swimming pool isn't a fair comparison to a fish spa tank, a pool isn't grossly overstocked with fish and the bacteria and waste that come with them.

I seriously doubt the fish are 'very happy' as you describe, given that upto 150-200 or so of these fish are crammed into tanks with volumes that barely hit the 100 litre mark. The amount of waste produced by _Garra rufa_ - which can grow upto 15cm/6" in length - is phenomenal. In the average fish spa tank, only 3-4 fish should be stocked given their adult size.

They're probably 'lining up in anticipation' due to their burning desire to escape from a polluted cesspool!

The sooner people (and businesses) get the message that fish are not a beauty treatment and do not belong in such an environment, the better.

Sent from my iPhone


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## aquaticstore.com

Can't comment on spa's that I have not seem, just baseing my conclusion on our own spa's but you are right in your assumption that a couple of hundred fish in a tank of only 100 litres would do harm to its inhabitants.

Now far be it for me to contradict or disagree with the PFK or its authority on health issues, but below is the latest info from the HPA:

HPA statement on fish spa pedicures

10 March 2011


Based on theoretical evidence and expert opinion, the HPA deems the risk of catching an infection from a Garra rufa fish foot spa to be very small. However, following a number of enquiries to the HPA from local environmental health officers, the HPA, Health Protection Scotland and the Health and Safety Laboratory are currently examining the most up to date evidence and will publish practical advice to help both salons and the public to minimise any possible risk in due course.

aquaticstore.com


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## dentman

Dear All
I have noted everyone's comments on the Garra Rufa and do agree with the comments posted on this site. I run an Aquatic shop specialising in Marine, Tropical and Coldwater Fish. I have also set up 2 Garra Rufa Spas, but there is a huge difference between my 250 litre pools and the standard 70 litre spa sold for exhorbitant prices to salons who know no different. We all are aware that a 70 litre tank can not support 50 fish, whatever the filtration - the same old rules still apply - one inch of fish per gallon of water. One spa owner is at her wits end - nitrite and ammonia levels are off the scale, especially with feet in there all day, and despite my trying to help with extra filtration, nitrite and ammonia treatments, the fish are actually attacking the smallest and eating them in a race for survival of the fittest - that or trying to jump out of the tank!
The solution is simple:
To run my shop it is mandatory that I have a Pet Shop Licence. This not only gives the Local Council extra income, but means I am controlled by the Environmental Health Department who can check at any time. If the Spas were put under the same rules, there would not be the problem of 1000's of fish dying in the name of profit!


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## Guest

dentman said:


> Dear All
> I have noted everyone's comments on the Garra Rufa and do agree with the comments posted on this site. I run an Aquatic shop specialising in Marine, Tropical and Coldwater Fish. I have also set up 2 Garra Rufa Spas, but there is a huge difference between my 250 litre pools and the standard 70 litre spa sold for exhorbitant prices to salons who know no different. We all are aware that a 70 litre tank can not support 50 fish, whatever the filtration - the same old rules still apply - *one inch of fish per gallon of water*. One spa owner is at her wits end - nitrite and ammonia levels are off the scale, especially with feet in there all day, and despite my trying to help with extra filtration, nitrite and ammonia treatments, the fish are actually attacking the smallest and eating them in a race for survival of the fittest - that or trying to jump out of the tank!
> The solution is simple:
> To run my shop it is mandatory that I have a Pet Shop Licence. This not only gives the Local Council extra income, but means I am controlled by the Environmental Health Department who can check at any time. If the Spas were put under the same rules, there would not be the problem of 1000's of fish dying in the name of profit!


The 'one inch of fish per gallon rule' is little more than a guideline, not a 'rule' and it has never received any form of scientific backing. It's regarded as a pile of crap by the majority of responsibile fishkeepers and you'll hardly find it being recommended by any reliable source. If fishkeepers followed it, we'd be seeing 30cm/12" Oscars in 12 gallon tanks.

Despite the requirements of a Pet Shop License, I've seen my fair share of aquatic stores with filthy tanks containing diseased (which should be in quarantine) or dead fish. It seems that councils fail to thoroughly inspect the a large number of stores which fail to meet basic standards and are consequently still running.


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## Guest




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## andyc22

Just a question about the Garra Rufa Fish,I know you have your feet cleaned and inspected before they allow you to enter the tank where your feet go<but what about people who have the likes of "Athletes foot" and "verukas" would they be allowed to still use the service.........


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## Polsander

Andycc22,

I am an Environmental Health Officer and along with my colleague an Animal Welfare Officer have responsibility for the inspection and enforcement of the Animal Welfare Act and various other pieces of legislation in these premises. We are currently undertaking inspections of the spas within our area and as you would expect, are finding different standards of controls regarding the inspections of customers feet prior to using the service. Most businesses state on their literature no open sores or wounds , athletes foot, other fungal infections or verrucas however the standard of inspection varies considerably. Many employees are not keen to thoroughly inspect a customers feet which would include spreading and visually examining the webbing between the toes where first evidence of the athletes foot fungus is found. So standards vary considerably across the business.


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## Polsander

Animal Welfare Act Enforcement:

As a continuation from above : After frank discussions with individuals and knowledgeable bodies we are focusing on water chemistry within the tanks initially testing for Nitrites, Ammonia etc with test paper and if readings are not satisfactory we are taking water samples for analysis with a view to enforcement action if the results are unsatisfactory. However the concern is that the chemistry of the water sample can change between the time of sampling and submission to the analyst which may have legal ramifications in the event of enforcement. Any further advice on this matter would be very welcome.


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## fish spa

andyc22 said:


> Just a question about the Garra Rufa Fish,I know you have your feet cleaned and inspected before they allow you to enter the tank where your feet go<but what about people who have the likes of "Athletes foot" and "verukas" would they be allowed to still use the service.........


We generally don't allow people with Verrucae into the spa unless they are in an area that can be covered with a waterproof dressing. Not all verrucae look the same, and may need a trained eye to diagnose them! Re. Fungal infections; they are not always obvious either. We, as Podiatrists carefully check to make sure that the feet do not have any splits, wounds, blisters or vesicles present. We also check medical history to assess medical risk.
Good Luck


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## fish spa

Polsander said:


> Animal Welfare Act Enforcement:
> 
> As a continuation from above : After frank discussions with individuals and knowledgeable bodies we are focusing on water chemistry within the tanks initially testing for Nitrites, Ammonia etc with test paper and if readings are not satisfactory we are taking water samples for analysis with a view to enforcement action if the results are unsatisfactory. However the concern is that the chemistry of the water sample can change between the time of sampling and submission to the analyst which may have legal ramifications in the event of enforcement. Any further advice on this matter would be very welcome.


Its great that you are doing all this, but surely its best to educate the operators of the spa *before* the fish are harmed or die so that they can prevent cruelty!
M


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## Guest

Polsander said:


> Animal Welfare Act Enforcement:
> 
> As a continuation from above : After frank discussions with individuals and knowledgeable bodies we are focusing on water chemistry within the tanks initially *testing for Nitrites, Ammonia etc with test paper* and if readings are not satisfactory we are taking water samples for analysis with a view to enforcement action if the results are unsatisfactory. *However the concern is that the chemistry of the water sample can change between the time of sampling and submission to the analyst which may have legal ramifications in the event of enforcement. * Any further advice on this matter would be very welcome.


To add to the relevant text which I've highlighted in bold:

'Test papers' - which usually come in the form of a strip with several small reagent pads which change colour according to the concentration of the substance (e.g. ammonia) or chemical parameter (e.g. pH, dKH) being tested - are infamously renowned for their lack of reliability, despite their widespread use in the medical profession for testing concentrations of substances such as glucose in urinalysis. The degree of accuracy provided by these test strips is not normally greater than around +/-1ppm (mg/l.), providing inaccurate or anomalous results. The accuracy of test strips is further decreased by degradation from exposure to high temperatures and humidity.

Far more accurate test results can be obtained by taking samples of water and storing them in sterile containers at a constant temperature before they are taken to a lab for analysis. The concentration of toxic nutrients such as ammonia and nitrite are always likely to be above 0ppm (mg/l.) in tanks that have inadequate filtration, insufficient maintenance, disproportionately high bioloads and large amounts of dead organic waste in the form of skin cells that aren't consumed and consequently collect at the bottom of the tanks.


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## loosefeet

@chillinator

Sorry Luke, but you are a biggot and a hypocrite.

Every post I have read from you contains your one and only message viz these places are wrong and should be banned.

Like battery farmed chickens, these places are here to stay. What they need is more legislation to ensure animal welfare. *This* should be your priority not a one man campaign to 'close em all down' which is doomed to failure. Get over it.

Any animal in captivity is never going to experience the lifestyle they were created/evolved to experience no matter how big your hutch/field/tank/enclosure etc. They just aint free.

Its not just fish and chickens either, we all eat bread and never wonder how closely the wheat is packed in the fields!!!

I am assuming from your obvious level of knowledge that you have several pieces of glass bonded together, filled with water and containing captive fish simply for YOUR enjoyment. How hypocritical is that? I have no doubt your water conditions are perfect and your fish are well looked after and your tank is not overstocked but does that give YOU the right to decide who can and can't keep fish based on your very own set of morals?

I am a former fishkeeper (about 25 years experience). I only do not have fish as the conversion of my house here from barn to dwelling still isn't finished after 10 years of living in it! hence my intention to return to fishkeeping has to wait.

My wife wants to open a garra rufa spa. I support her BUT animal welfare IS my priority NOT profit. Lets face it, the margins here are so great we can afford to send all the fish to Tenerife on their holidays once a year if that's what it takes.

Yes there is sufficient money in this business but there is also ignorance. This needs to be stamped out. Good animal husbandry HAS to be the priority and it needs to be up to environmental health/defra etc to come up with rules and regulations to make it so.

Lets get rid of the cowboys but don't put every spa owner into the same boat. There ARE good guys out there who DO care for their animals.

To be continued..... (I suspect)

Steve


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## Guest

loosefeet said:


> @chillinator
> 
> Sorry Luke, but you are a biggot and a hypocrite.
> 
> Every post I have read from you contains your one and only message viz these places are wrong and should be banned.
> 
> Like battery farmed chickens, these places are here to stay. What they need is more legislation to ensure animal welfare. *This* should be your priority not a one man campaign to 'close em all down' which is doomed to failure. Get over it.
> 
> Any animal in captivity is never going to experience the lifestyle they were created/evolved to experience no matter how big your hutch/field/tank/enclosure etc. They just aint free.
> 
> Its not just fish and chickens either, we all eat bread and never wonder how closely the wheat is packed in the fields!!!
> 
> I am assuming from your obvious level of knowledge that you have several pieces of glass bonded together, filled with water and containing captive fish simply for YOUR enjoyment. How hypocritical is that? I have no doubt your water conditions are perfect and your fish are well looked after and your tank is not overstocked but does that give YOU the right to decide who can and can't keep fish based on your very own set of morals?
> 
> I am a former fishkeeper (about 25 years experience). I only do not have fish as the conversion of my house here from barn to dwelling still isn't finished after 10 years of living in it! hence my intention to return to fishkeeping has to wait.
> 
> My wife wants to open a garra rufa spa. I support her BUT animal welfare IS my priority NOT profit. Lets face it, the margins here are so great we can afford to send all the fish to Tenerife on their holidays once a year if that's what it takes.
> 
> Yes there is sufficient money in this business but there is also ignorance. This needs to be stamped out. Good animal husbandry HAS to be the priority and it needs to be up to environmental health/defra etc to come up with rules and regulations to make it so.
> 
> Lets get rid of the cowboys but don't put every spa owner into the same boat. There ARE good guys out there who DO care for their animals.
> 
> To be continued..... (I suspect)
> 
> Steve


Curious, you live in Cumbria (as I do) and I know a fishkeeper by the name of Steve who runs a well known aquatic store in the Lakes area. I don't suppose we know eachother?

Firstly, to address your claims that I'm a 'bigot' and a 'hypocrite', you've very clearly missed the point. My message is that fish spas should be closed down - not only for health risks - but because it my moral duty as a fishkeeper. Ask any fishkeeper on a reputable forum (e.g. Practical Fishkeeping) or read some current threads on other forums on the matter - they'll give you the same answer and you'll see that I'm not running a 'one man campaign'.

Unlike in fish spa owners/employees, I spend a considerably greater proportion of my time to ensure that water quality in my aquariums is paramount; which is easily achievable in an average home aquarium with sensible stocking. Spa tanks on the other hand, are grossly overstocked, have inadequate filtration and are run by new and inexperienced staff with no formal training in the care of ornamental fish. There's another contrasting difference: I don't keep fish to scrape dead skin off my feet all day.

Fish spas themselves admit that their fish barely last beyond the 2-3 week mark.

You've again missed the point and digressed away from the main point of the argument by referring to chickens and even wheat. This argument is not about farm animals or wheat (both of which provide basics for human survival: food), it's about fish.

Spas are using these fish for profit in a practice that has no current scientific basis to show that it is 100% effective without other forms of treatment being required. How, I will ask, can you as a fishkeeper honestly condone using fish as a cosmetic treatment?

Take a very close look at the article I posted from PFK May 2011. It is a basic biological fact that dead skins cells contain little more than Keratin, an indigestible protein which no nutritional value. Garra rufa don't normally resort to scavenging behaviour until all other food sources have run out.

You are biased to support fish spas because of your wife's desire to open one. Voicing against it would possibly put you in ill-favour with your wife, so by supporting it you are _biased_. Look up the definition of the word if you are unaware of it.

I don't dictate to people who want to keep fish, I advise. Prospective fishkeepers come to other fishkeepers - like me - for help and I give it. This is one issue where I will advise from my own experience and my opinion, whether or not the person on the other end will take the info and use it is not my problem.

This subject has been open for discussion elsewhere for some time and the facts have been around for even longer. Ignorance is not an excuse where the spas are concerned; they are businesses run by businesspeople exploiting a niche in a market fuelled by people who are unaware of the reality.

*I have provided scientific facts to back up my argument and my opinion which I have every RIGHT to express without being labelled a bigot or hypocriticial. 
*
I suggest you observe this more closely and start providing some facts if you want to sustain your side of the argument.


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## Polsander

Chillinator said:


> To add to the relevant text which I've highlighted in bold:
> 
> 'Test papers' - which usually come in the form of a strip with several small reagent pads which change colour according to the concentration of the substance (e.g. ammonia) or chemical parameter (e.g. pH, dKH) being tested - are infamously renowned for their lack of reliability, despite their widespread use in the medical profession for testing concentrations of substances such as glucose in urinalysis. The degree of accuracy provided by these test strips is not normally greater than around +/-1ppm (mg/l.), providing inaccurate or anomalous results. The accuracy of test strips is further decreased by degradation from exposure to high temperatures and humidity.
> 
> Far more accurate test results can be obtained by taking samples of water and storing them in sterile containers at a constant temperature before they are taken to a lab for analysis. The concentration of toxic nutrients such as ammonia and nitrite are always likely to be above 0ppm (mg/l.) in tanks that have inadequate filtration, insufficient maintenance, disproportionately high bioloads and large amounts of dead organic waste in the form of skin cells that aren't consumed and consequently collect at the bottom of the tanks.


Thank you for the information Chillinator, we have decided to initially test the tank water with a fluid reagent which i have been informed has a greater (be it marginal) degree of reliability. Any premises that fails that initial test will be required to address the matter forthwith and undergo an unanounced re-visit and re-tested. If the second result is unacceptable then a half litre water sample will be taken into a sealed sterile sample bottle and stored in a chill box whilst transported to the public analyst. The purpose of the exercise is to drive standards of animal welfare upwards and where necessary use legislation to do so. I appreciate that there are businesses out there whose priority is the welfare of the fish and they should have nothing to fear from a visit and infact we hope to learn from them. However, we have concerns regarding some business who appear to have sprung-up overnight and need to question their knowledge base of animal welfare, water chemistry, hygiene, etc. Again, thank you all for your advice and information it is very much appreciated.


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## loosefeet

Chillinator - just in case you don't know the definition of bigot, it is "a person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own"

Can you show me scientifically how you are tolerating other people's ideas?

Your comment about the life expectancy of a fish being 2-3 weeks does not make economic sense. I can not believe it. £100 per week or so spent on replacement fish per tank just becasue the owners cant be bothered looking after them? No way.

I HAVE read your PFK article. My understanding, and I may be wrong of course (see thats something* I *am capable of admitting), is that the fish are not actually eating the dead skin. This is why the filters have to be cleaned every day and the fish fed twice a day. Yes hey are scavanging. They are looking for food under the dead skin as they would in the wild if they were hungry.

However, the bottom line of your post seemed to be - Fish dont have saliva therefore these places should be banned as soon as possible.

You ask for facts. Here are some I can personally guarantee are 100% accurate.

1. I do not have psoriasis
2. I do have exzema but its on my elbows, behind my ears and a bit on my neck and I have no intettion of sticking those parts of my body in a fash tank.
3. I have had a garra rufa foot spa.
4. After the 30 minutes, my feet felt relaxed and refreshed. Walking back to the car, I felt like I was walking on cushions. It was a very pleasurable experience and not at all cosmetic.
5. In thailand, I had a thai massage. After my body had been pummeled for a while, it too felt similarly relaxed and refreshed. Did I complain afterwards that I was not covered in the masseuse's saliva? ABSOLUTELY NOT

It is also a fact of life that animals are kept in non too ideal surroundings for human gain. You are correct, battery chickens are not fish, that was well spotted. The wheat comment was sarcasm - not so well spotted. Unless you know a scientific fact I do not, Salmon and Trout ARE fish and they ARE farmed and kept in overcrowded conditions - I myself prefer wild caught alaskan salmon but it is a taste preference, not a moral decision. I do eat battery chickens.

Presently, there is no fish spa in my town. Mark my words, there *WILL* be one soon. Either we open one or somebody else will. If we open one, I can guarantee the fish will be our priority and cared for. If somedody else does, I can't make any such guarantees. As a fish keeper, I want to see fish kept in the best possible conditions so would it not actually be moraly wrong of us NOT to go ahead.

You can not change the fact that these places are open the world over. You CAN help ensure that, in the UK at least, they are run as fish friendly as is reasonably practicable. Surely THAT is your moral duty, not waging a war you can not win.

@Polsander - Keep up the good work. Root out the cowboys and push for compulsary licensing of all garra rufa spas in the UK. Listen to level headed, unbiased opinions like 'fishy person' This industry needs regulating, not banning.

Steve.

PS - Luke, I dont own an aquatics store, you do not know me (I don't think).


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## Guest

loosefeet said:


> Chillinator - just in case you don't know the definition of bigot, it is "a person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own"
> 
> Can you show me scientifically how you are tolerating other people's ideas?
> 
> Your comment about the life expectancy of a fish being 2-3 weeks does not make economic sense. I can not believe it. £100 per week or so spent on replacement fish per tank just becasue the owners cant be bothered looking after them? No way.
> 
> I HAVE read your PFK article. My understanding, and I may be wrong of course (see thats something* I *am capable of admitting), is that the fish are not actually eating the dead skin. This is why the filters have to be cleaned every day and the fish fed twice a day. Yes hey are scavanging. They are looking for food under the dead skin as they would in the wild if they were hungry.
> 
> However, the bottom line of your post seemed to be - Fish dont have saliva therefore these places should be banned as soon as possible.
> 
> You ask for facts. Here are some I can personally guarantee are 100% accurate.
> 
> 1. I do not have psoriasis
> 2. I do have exzema but its on my elbows, behind my ears and a bit on my neck and I have no intettion of sticking those parts of my body in a fash tank.
> 3. I have had a garra rufa foot spa.
> 4. After the 30 minutes, my feet felt relaxed and refreshed. Walking back to the car, I felt like I was walking on cushions. It was a very pleasurable experience and not at all cosmetic.
> 5. In thailand, I had a thai massage. After my body had been pummeled for a while, it too felt similarly relaxed and refreshed. Did I complain afterwards that I was not covered in the masseuse's saliva? ABSOLUTELY NOT
> 
> It is also a fact of life that animals are kept in non too ideal surroundings for human gain. You are correct, battery chickens are not fish, that was well spotted. The wheat comment was sarcasm - not so well spotted. Unless you know a scientific fact I do not, Salmon and Trout ARE fish and they ARE farmed and kept in overcrowded conditions - I myself prefer wild caught alaskan salmon but it is a taste preference, not a moral decision. I do eat battery chickens.
> 
> Presently, there is no fish spa in my town. Mark my words, there *WILL* be one soon. Either we open one or somebody else will. If we open one, I can guarantee the fish will be our priority and cared for. If somedody else does, I can't make any such guarantees. As a fish keeper, I want to see fish kept in the best possible conditions so would it not actually be moraly wrong of us NOT to go ahead.
> 
> You can not change the fact that these places are open the world over. You CAN help ensure that, in the UK at least, they are run as fish friendly as is reasonably practicable. Surely THAT is your moral duty, not waging a war you can not win.
> 
> Steve.


A fish spa is not an 'idea' as such, it's a simple desire wanted by a few people who don't know what exactly lies beneath.

Fish spas purchase their stock wholesale, which means its dirt cheap. It's undeniable that a single _Garra rufa_ isn't going to survive for long in poor water conditions that inevitably result from gross overcrowding. I've seen some spas stocking Goldfish in their tanks - for what purpose I don't know aside from the fact they too are very cheap to purchase in bulk.

How many fish spas do you see actively feeding the fish? If the fish are being fed, why would they scavenge? The point stands that many fish spas are deliberately not feeding their fish to induce scavenging behaviour for a 'food source' that has no nutritional value, as I have proven from a reliable source in the PFK article.

By the use of the term 'facts' I am referring to scientific facts in support of the advantages (e.g. medical) of fish spa 'treatment', not conclusions drawn by yourself.

Once again, you've drawn another pointless and irrelevant comparison, this time by using commercially-farmed fish as an example. The stocking densities in fish farms are surprisingly lower than inside a spa tank; I can safely say this from a personal experience as my uncle is a marine biologist working for UCLA, giving me the opportunity to see a salmon farm in the flesh. This holds true even further for fish that are farmed at sea in netted enclosures; poor water quality isn't an issue in an environment as large as the oceans due to the volume of water involved.

The simple fact is, you can't guarantee that the welfare of the fish is being prioritized when they're being crammed into such small tanks. Water quality suffers and fish die at an uncontrollable rate, *FACT*.

I'm not fighting a one-man war, most of the _responsible_ fishkeeping community share the same sentiments.

To put it very bluntly, I am getting sick and tired of your _sniping_ remarks implying that I can't tolerate being proven wrong. I have been proven wrong on many arguments, and in the process I haven't been insulted as you have done in this case. If you've got anymore of these remarks, leave them in my PM inbox.


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## Guest

loosefeet said:


> However, the bottom line of your post seemed to be - Fish dont have saliva therefore these places should be banned as soon as possible.


Where did saliva (or salivary glands) come into the equation? Have I mentioned saliva anywhere in my posts?

Oh, and by the way, I don't need anymore definitions of words that I already understand very clearly. You've deduced from my posts that I'm not allowing any other opinions on the matter, which is not the case. People (including yourself) have been reacting with a hostile tone to my posts which I've backed up with FACTS. Obviously they can't argue like mature adults.

A sensible debate was started, and a few idiots are keen to bring it crashing down. The future looks bleak for the 'pro' fish spa lobby given their pathetic excuses.


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## loosefeet

Chillinator said:


> Dr Lyndon also quite rightly points out that in general, fish don't possess salivary glands, further casting a dark shadow over the fish spa industry.


Sorry if I've misread


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## Guest

loosefeet said:


> Sorry if I've misread


If you put that with the other text it relates to, instead of just peeling off what you like, it soon becomes quite clear:

"*Advocates of fish spa treatments claim that Garra rufa secrete an enzyme in their saliva called Diathanol which reportedly promotes the healing process of various skin conditions.

However, Dr Alastair Lyndon - a well known lecturer in fish nutrition and enzymes - says differently. Believe it or not, Diathanol is a defunct chemical name which was used upto the 1960's to describe a certain group of organic chemicals. Diathanol is not an enzyme and nor has the name been used in any scientific research papers and other literature. This term is being used as a marketing ploy by fish spas.

Dr Lyndon also quite rightly points out that in general, fish don't possess salivary glands, further casting a dark shadow over the fish spa industry.*"

I have not just drawn the conclusion from the fact that fish don't generally produce saliva and used it as the sole reason for why fish spas should be banned. It is just _one_ of many reasons that I've highlighted in this thread and in others on the forum.


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## loosefeet

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference


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## Guest

loosefeet said:


> God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
> Courage to change the things I can,
> And wisdom to know the difference


Let's just get one thing _very clear_: my opinion stands that I openly object to fish spas and I have the right to voice that opinion. Exploiting fish in the name of profit in this manner goes against my own ethics. I won't offer any further advice to people wishing to open a fish spa. Don't imply that I'm fighting a lost cause or that I'm a one-man crusade.

To be perfectly honest, I don't care if you have a desire to open and run a fish spa, I will simply encourage people not to give their money to people like yourself and make them aware of the health risks and cruelty that goes on.

It's contradictory to say that you'll ensure that fish welfare will be of paramount importance when you know all too well that you'll have to keep the fish in adverse conditions for your business to stay afloat.

Take your comments to a much larger fishkeeping forum and stir-up a virtual lynch mob amongst the 99.9% of members who disagree with the fish spa industry.


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## Telic

Polsander said:


> Hi There,
> 
> I wonder if anyone may be able to help me. I am an environmental health officer and along with my colleague an animal welfare officer we are respnsibble for enforcing health and safety and animal welfare in premises providing garra rufa for skin treatments. We both have concerns regarding the conditions in which these fish may be kept, such as stocking densities, water quality, filtration use of UV etc . i would be very grateful for any information members may be able to provide.
> 
> thank you in advance.
> 
> Polsander


My concern over these spas is the ignornace around contracting bacteria skin infections - particularily Mycobacterium marinum infections and similar.
I know from unfrotunately contracting this infection personally from an outstandingly maintained and filtered reef tank that it's very easy to contract rather unpleasant infections purley from the water collumn that unfortunatley will problably go misdiagnosed for some time until there are more poor people visitng GP's with similar issues. 6 months+ of a vareity of anti-biotics and there is still a risk that the bacterium will return.
UV won't provide a guiaranteed kill to these forms of bacterial infection so how can spa's guarnatee public safety?


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## Polsander

For information:
The Fish Spa Working group which has been formed to produce "Guidance on the management of the *Public health Risks* from fish pedicures" released their draft results for consultation on June 15th 2011. 
The draft conclusion : "On the basis of the evidence and the consensus view of experts, the Fish Spa Working group concluded that the risk of infection as a result of a fish pedicure is likely to be very low, but cannot be completely excluded" There are several interesting recommendations made and the document should be widely available in near future if not already. Interestingly, the onus is on appropriate and thorough pre and post use user screening. Before anyone comments; This document does not in anyway purport to address fish welfare issues. These concerns fall under the Animal Welfare Act 2006.

Wishing all a happy weekend.

Pol


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## Fishy person

Do you have any contact details for the fish spa working group, I would be interested in their findings.

Well I seem to have provoked quite a debate regarding Garra Rufa pedicures.
What's interesting is that I do understand that this practice is not natural but neither is keeping fish in any tank, millions of fish die each week at the hands of hobbyists, I have to have a licence to hold fish perhaps people who keep fish should also be made to own a licence this may reduce the impulse buys. aquarium shops will sell fish to anyone for profit without asking questions regarding the conditions or the persons knowledge. 
Through this debate health issues have been brought up but nothing has proved that there is a significant risk of infections providing adequate care is taken before the. Pedicure is given. Research is still being carried out and I Will fully support the findings. 

If anyone's interested my next topic will be Recirculating Aquaculture/ponic systems or (RAS) for short, fish farming reducing the demand on the worlds fish stocks.


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## Polsander

Fishy Person ,

I am out of the office until 15-08-11 but will forward the details you requested above then.

Regards


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## Polsander

Fish Person,

A promised:

The document is titled: _Guidance on the Management or the Public Health Risks from Fish Pedicures _and has been produced by the multi-agency Fish Spa Working group, convened by the health Proptection Agency (HPA) The document is a draft and consultative with closing date for comments 0n 29-07-11. I do not believe the document is as yet available on general release. You may be able to gain further info from the HPA website.

Regards Pol


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## Polsander

Telic said:


> My concern over these spas is the ignornace around contracting bacteria skin infections - particularily Mycobacterium marinum infections and similar.
> I know from unfrotunately contracting this infection personally from an outstandingly maintained and filtered reef tank that it's very easy to contract rather unpleasant infections purley from the water collumn that unfortunatley will problably go misdiagnosed for some time until there are more poor people visitng GP's with similar issues. 6 months+ of a vareity of anti-biotics and there is still a risk that the bacterium will return.
> UV won't provide a guiaranteed kill to these forms of bacterial infection so how can spa's guarnatee public safety?


Hi Telic,

You are quite right to have concerns _Mycobacterium marinum_ is typically transmitted to the skin where an open wound, graze or cut comes into contact with the organsm in biofilm. This places the emphasis on the thorough inspection of clients feet, ankles and lower legs by the spa staff before allowing a person to undertake the treatment. I fully appreciate that most providers of this type of treatment may be wholly unaware of this hazard and it is this area that needs to be addressed.

_Erysipelothrix rhusiopathiae _and _Streptococcus iniae _ are both typically associated with handling fish out of water and zoonitic infection is rare even in theose who hadle fish regularly. The latter usually causes high mortality in fish and as such both are considered to be low risk to humans.

Reports of _Aeronomas sp. _infections are rare but have been serious in immunocompromised patents, and is more likely to cause d and v via food borne and is thought to be a low risk pathogen in a spa setting. _

Streptococcus agalactiae_ are known to have caused death in consignments of _Garra rufa_Human infections with _S. agalactiae_ usually occur in neonates or as cause of puerperal sepsis and well assoc with diabetes sufferers abd again considered low risk in a spa setting.

Have a great weekend. Pol


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## ramonfernandez

IMHO, I think Fishy Person do have some points in there. Probably the more important thing about this is not the welfare of the fish but the the welfare of the people using the service. This is in regards to health issues of contamination and transmissions of any forms of disease.


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## Polsander

The Health protection Agency have now made the *Guidance on the management of the public
health risks from fish pedicures* available> The paper can be found at:http://www.hpa.org.uk/webc/HPAwebFile/HPAweb_C/1317131045549

Polsander


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