# Surprising the inlaws with there new pup



## bbear690 (Nov 23, 2010)

Surprise its a puppy - YouTube

I know 6 weeks is young, she is closer to 7 and totally weened from mum and she has my doggie to learn off being a good girl, she was in a little of 9 and all the other puppies where going to new homes so we decided to take her too, i thought that she was 8 weeks but after driving 3 hrs i wasn't going to be returning lol, she is adorable and doing really well, nearly doing all her sees and poos on paper, she has some puppy milk too that she loves, anyway the video is fab, have a look xx


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

at first i wanted to say omg you dont give a dog as a present!!! what if they dont want anouther dog!!! what if there aren't prepared for a puppy!!! 6 weeks is far too young :frown: But then i watched the video and i got all choked up  they look so happy  (shame she wasnt a bit older though)


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## ballybee (Aug 25, 2010)

That video got me all teary, they looked so happy with their present  she's quite young but so very beautiful and your in laws look so utterly happy cuddling her 

I hope we get lots of pictures as she grows up, can't tease us all with a video and then never show that sweet wee face on here again


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Oh dear


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## beary_clairey (Jan 23, 2011)

I'm bawling my eyes out. Its your Dads reaction that gets me you can see they both adore her but he just cant stop those tears.

You know that will be one loved girl!!!!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> Oh dear


Thats about all I could think of.....


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## beary_clairey (Jan 23, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> Oh dear


Why Oh dear?


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## lisaloo1 (Aug 8, 2011)

oh wow, ya cant buy happiness like that, it was lovely, yes he is a bit young but you can just tell hes gonna get everything he needs and more, i hope they have many happy years with him, Nice 1:thumbup:


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

lisaloo1 said:


> oh wow, ya cant buy happiness like that, it was lovely, yes he is a bit young but you can just tell hes gonna get everything he needs and more, i hope they have many happy years with him, Nice 1:thumbup:


& In the return how many more dogs will suffer at the hands of BYB because of irresponsible breeding and buying of dogs. - Its clear from a number of things this dog isnt brought from an ethical breeder - and just because the dogs going to a perfect home doesnt make it a responsible purchase, or even acceptable for that matter.


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## beary_clairey (Jan 23, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> & In the return how many more dogs will suffer at the hands of BYB because of irresponsible breeding and buying of dogs. - Its clear from a number of things this dog isnt brought from an ethical breeder - and just because the dogs going to a perfect home doesnt make it a responsible purchase, or even acceptable for that matter.


What are the indicators it's from a BYB breeder?


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## lisaloo1 (Aug 8, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> & In the return how many more dogs will suffer at the hands of BYB because of irresponsible breeding and buying of dogs. - Its clear from a number of things this dog isnt brought from an ethical breeder - and just because the dogs going to a perfect home doesnt make it a responsible purchase, or even acceptable for that matter.


how is it an irresponsible purchase, they obviously want the dog, and will be well looked after, theres a difference between that couple who were over joyed to have the puppy and someone who just fancys a dog cause it seems like a good idea at the time


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

beary_clairey said:


> What are the indicators it's from a BYB breeder?


Two key points to me are...

Its 6 weeks old and is away from its dam and siblings..
Its been sold to someone other than its ' owner to be ' .. Breeder knew this


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

lisaloo1 said:


> how is it an irresponsible purchase, they obviously want the dog, and will be well looked after, theres a difference between that couple who were over joyed to have the puppy and someone who just fancys a dog cause it seems like a good idea at the time


You dont have to agree with me - but to me its wrong for someone to buy a dog for someone with out first informing them, its also wrong for a breeder to sell to someone on behalf of someone else, who they havent met  what breeder sells to someone for someone they dont no? not an ethical one


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## beary_clairey (Jan 23, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Two key points to me are...
> 
> Its 6 weeks old and is away from its dam and siblings..
> Its been sold to someone other than its ' owner to be ' .. Breeder knew this


do you think that these key points are exclusive to BYB breeders?


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

beary_clairey said:


> do you think that these key points are exclusive to BYB breeders?


Yep because (in my opinion) no ethical breeder would do either of the above!


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## lisaloo1 (Aug 8, 2011)

they must have wanted one or they wouldnt have bought it for them, just look at their reaction , it was probably mentioned quite a few times, and their family felt it was the right time???


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

lisaloo1 said:


> they must have wanted one or they wouldnt have bought it for them, just look at their reaction , it was probably mentioned quite a few times, and their family felt it was the right time???


If you find it acceptable thats fine, you have every right to..I happen to find it less than acceptable, mainly on breeders part but there you go..


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## lisaloo1 (Aug 8, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> If you find it acceptable thats fine, you have every right to..I happen to find it less than acceptable, mainly on breeders part but there you go..


i agree its too young and the breeder shouldn't really have let them go so early, but i still think that puppy has fallen on its feet and yes it may be one of the lucky ones, still loved the video tho


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

lisaloo1 said:


> i agree its too young and the breeder shouldn't really have let them go so early, but i still think that puppy has fallen on its feet and yes it may be one of the lucky ones, still loved the video tho


I hope it has landed on its feet sure looks it, but the breeder doesnt know this - or the home would have been vetted, not sold to someone who was then passing it on..


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

I thought I was the only one thinking "oh for **** sake...."

Apparently not 

Wahey!!!! Gosh I'm just so overjoyed that the ONE puppy out of that litter is going to a fab home!!!!
Oh wait a minute, what about the others? :s
What about the puppies in the next "accidental" litter?
Were the parents hip and elbow scored? Eyes tested?

"The puppies are already on the ground" doesn't cut it for me I'm afraid. Cycle has to break somewhere and the most likely is stopping buyers from buying from CLEARLY unethical breeders.

Oh and just because a breeder loves their dogs doesn't mean they're not being entirely ignorant of their responsibilities as a breeder. Ignorance is bliss, eh? Not for the dogs.


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## beary_clairey (Jan 23, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> If you find it acceptable thats fine, you have every right to..I happen to find it less than acceptable, mainly on breeders part but there you go..


I think many people rely on the advice of breeders when buying pups as they are seen as the experts. I have dealt with a KC registered breeder that with hindsight had some dodgy and suspect ways going on. But it's taken me four dogs to learn that lesson.

at least we can see this pup is going to have a lovely life even if it's beginnings are possibly not the best.


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## Chihuahua-Rocky (May 10, 2011)

I am kind of shocked at what age some people pick up their pup, and am shocked about the "breeder" giving away puppies in that age.... 6 weeks is way too early for a puppy to be taken away from his/her mommy!!! Really sad!
And giving a puppy as a gift is just a no-go! Too many dogs given as gifts were later on not wanted no more and left in shelters. And I believe that it is better to pick a out a puppy on your own rather than someone else doing it for you.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

beary_clairey said:


> I think many people rely on the advice of breeders when buying pups as they are seen as the experts. I have dealt with a KC registered breeder that with hindsight had some dodgy and suspect ways going on. But it's taken me four dogs to learn that lesson.
> 
> at least we can see this pup is going to have a lovely life even if it's beginnings are possibly not the best.


I have no doubt that this pups in a wonderful home, going by the video - but seriously this is not the point - as long as these breeders are supported, and their pups sell they will continue - little thought to the welfare of either parents and the pups. Its so sad. - Breeding goes way past one little life that finds a suitable home think about the reasons, the health - the parents, the litter mates, other litters..ect'..


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Really sweet video - the pup looks like she'll be well loved.
Sounds like a new puppy had been dicussed by everyone and although this was a suprise it was obvious they wanted a new pup.


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## beary_clairey (Jan 23, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I have no doubt that this pups in a wonderful home, going by the video - but seriously this is not the point - as long as these breeders are supported, and their pups sell they will continue - little thought to the welfare of either parents and the pups. Its so sad. - Breeding goes way past one little life that finds a suitable home think about the reasons, the health - the parents, the litter mates, other litters..ect'..


I'm not disagreeing with you. My point is even when you think you are doing it right like finding a KC registered breeder when buying a pup, it can still be wrong.


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## Manoy Moneelil (Sep 1, 2011)

I echo the sentiments of OMG above.

Far to often a pup as a gift results in future pet rescue re-homing, I can't think that a nice surprise is a lifetime of care and attention, limitations on overseas travel and the extra mouth to feed and clear up after.

I think the OPs intention is well meant from a family that seem to be animal aware (from reading the OPs other threads and posts), however....

I can only consider the other recent thread from the OP asking about getting a new dog for themselves is not in some way triggered by the pup-effect of seeing the in-laws pup and the emotion that is generated within the children when interacting with the pup.

With luck and good care the pup stage lasts months to a year - the dog will last another 12 years.

*The question is does one want a pup or want a dog ?*​
Very often IMHO people *want* a pup then have the burden of a dog.

*Sorry* if this post reads as negative, I mean no ill-will to the OP in spreading the obvious good feeling that your gift brought to your relatives. But it would be nice to read that the "surprise" is not completely out of the blue but planned for by the recipients with consideration to proper BARF feeding with an exercise and training program in place - not just an excuse to encourage the grandchildren to visit.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

beary_clairey said:


> I'm not disagreeing with you. My point is even when you think you are doing it right like finding a KC registered breeder when buying a pup, it can still be wrong.


Oh of course. There are MANY KC registered breeders I wouldnt touch with a barge pole, the problem is any breeder can become a KC registered breeder.


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

The video is absolutely lovely and brought a tear to my eye. That is one lucky pup.

Sadly it also demonstrates just how much we as a society are lacking in education about animal welfare and buying a puppy. Clearly the couple who bought the pup are well meaning, yet even the good guys like them have ended up encouraging a back yard breeder by buying off them, simply through lack of knowledge. 

No ethical breeding in my mind would home to someone without meeting them, nor home a puppy so young.


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## ballybee (Aug 25, 2010)

Am I the only person who read the info on the video? The OPs in laws lost their lab x retriever 6 months ago and on the video they'd said they were thinking about asking their kids to find them a puppy for their Christmas present. This puppy was very much wanted and this family clearly wanted to see their elders smile again, yes there are some things that could have been done better but not everyone knows about checking for health tests etc, my dogs probably from an irresponsible byb but I didn't know any better and I'm so happy he's here!!!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

ballybee said:


> Am I the only person who read the info on the video? The OPs in laws lost their lab x retriever 6 months ago and on the video they'd said they were thinking about asking their kids to find them a puppy for their Christmas present. This puppy was very much wanted and this family clearly wanted to see their elders smile again, yes there are some things that could have been done better but not everyone knows about checking for health tests etc, my dogs probably from an irresponsible byb but I didn't know any better and I'm so happy he's here!!!


still doesnt excuse how irresponsible the breeder has been..


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Ok the puppy is here, is alive and and in good hands, regardless where its bred, good or bad its here!, hopefully and by the looks of the video it wlil have a good life, let sleeping dogs lie


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

ballybee said:


> Am I the only person who read the info on the video? The OPs in laws lost their lab x retriever 6 months ago and on the video they'd said they were thinking about asking their kids to find them a puppy for their Christmas present. This puppy was very much wanted and this family clearly wanted to see their elders smile again, yes there are some things that could have been done better but not everyone knows about checking for health tests etc, my dogs probably from an irresponsible byb but I didn't know any better and I'm so happy he's here!!!


I don't think *most* people commenting have too much of a problem with it being a surprise gift. Personally, as a rule, I think it's a horrendous idea to give an animals as a surprise. Yet in this case I think it's pretty obvious that it wasn't as straight forward as all that, and that in fact everyone involved was aware that the parents wanted a pup very much so - they were even expecting a puppy as a "present" for Christmas, the real surprise being that it happened earlier than expected.

For me it's the breeder I have a problem with and the lack of education in society about how to go about getting a pup the right way.


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## pika (Apr 6, 2010)

Congrats on the adorable puppy such a sweet vid, your inlaws look so overjoyed by the little one, does she/he have a name yet? (or have you posted it and I've missed it because I should be in bed right now :lol: ?)

6 weeks is a bit young but at least this pup has gone to a great home. 

Worries will always be there for what happened to the other littermates, but one can only think positively that all pups landed on their feet. 

Without knowing for certain we are all just making assumptions, assumptions are never good to make, we don't know about the situations regarding the litter and what events were surrounding it so it's best not to comment on something we don't know everything about. I personally like to avoid making judgements without knowing the full story and instead having a little more understanding for people when you don't know the full story. 

Anyways - congrats on the new addition


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Kinjilabs said:


> Ok the puppy is here, is alive and and in good hands, regardless where its bred, good or bad its here!, hopefully and by the looks of the video it wlil have a good life, let sleeping dogs lie


But if we all had them thoughts, there would be no such thing as a right or wrong way to breed/buy..because once their born, and need homes it would be acceptable to support anything


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Gawd sometimes I just wish people would lighten up and forget all the byb comments. 

She is gogeous and mum and dad look sooo chuffed, bet she'll get spoilt rotten just like my lil byb-ers have! Wish I got a surprise like that for my birthday. 

Pics as she grows........please!


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## bbear690 (Nov 23, 2010)

Well as you can see from the video we are not children, we had discussed with the inlaws about the puppy, it was definitely, we where looking for the same breed as they lost so had to be a lab cross, they are so happy with there pup, i even thought 6 weeks was too young, we got our boxer at 7 and she is now nearly one and the best behaved dog in the world and loves other dogs etc etc, Anyway back to the cute tiny one, not that i feel i have to justify myself or the breeder, she asked lots of questions and at first she was actually unsure about us giving her as a present but once we explained ourselves she was great, we spoke on the phone and spent an hour at her house when we picked her up. The pups where all with there mum still, none where feeding off her and they where all healthy and happy, THESE PUPS NEEDED NEW HOMES FOR CHRIST SAKE IF NO ONE BUYS THEM WHERE WOULD THEY END UP!!! NOT MY FAULT THEY HAVE BEEN BORN, Anyway the inlaws have wanted another dog since there dog died we are not stupid, they knew we where getting them one, they just didn't expect it then

We didn't even know when we where getting her as was finding it had to find a lab X goldie, Anyway my fil and mil where getting very depressed and we knew they needed a doggie back in there lives

Will add some more pics for people who want to see  


I did know i would get mixed reactions i was expecting that, but the pups siblings would have all been gone so if i left her she would have been on her own anyway:?


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

Well, the video has certainly brightened up my morning. The reactions on their faces was just lovely to see, I'll admit to shedding a little tear watching it 

I hope they all have a lovely life together and I too would love to see photos as she grows  What's her name?


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## bbear690 (Nov 23, 2010)

They decided to call her Brynnie 

She is nearly 8 weeks now and is doing really well Mother and father in law are totally in love with her


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## wyntersmum (Jul 31, 2011)

lisaloo1 said:


> i agree its too young and the breeder shouldn't really have let them go so early, but i still think that puppy has fallen on its feet and yes it may be one of the lucky ones, still loved the video tho


i have removed my comments as people have taken what i have put and twisted it.


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## Balto-x (Nov 7, 2010)

Awwww what a beautiful puppy :001_wub::001_wub:

And that video made me cry 

What a loving home for that puppy to go to 

We need lots of piccies 

xxx


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## bbear690 (Nov 23, 2010)

wyntersmum said:


> its a loverly vid but im a bit unsure as both are older people and having a puppy may be alot for them to cope with. id be scared that if they dont see her and fall over her if there not that active in the (able to get off the floor way) whos going to help them up if they do fall over her. what about the walking i think the would have been better getting them an olde dog not a puppy. but all the best to them and i hope all goes well with everything.


OMG, if they read this they would be devastated, they are only 60, they are active, walk miles every single day, my mother in law is a nurse and father in law still works sometimes helping to renovate houses. They are probably more active than most teenager/young adults who spend most of there lives sat at a computer screen


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Priceless reaction from Mum and Dad's masculinity was quite evidently struggling to cover up his more sensitive side. 

Us guys eh. We're a bunch of big softies deep down.


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## bbear690 (Nov 23, 2010)

He is terrible with her, he is besotted, just like we knew he would be

She is def going to be Mans best friend


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2011)

wyntersmum said:


> its a loverly vid but im a bit unsure as both are older people and having a puppy may be alot for them to cope with. id be scared that if they dont see her and fall over her if there not that active in the (able to get off the floor way) whos going to help them up if they do fall over her. what about the walking i think the would have been better getting them an olde dog not a puppy.


offs! what has someones age got to do with it ? they are probably more able to provide more time , more security , more love and affection to that little pup than say someone the same age as yourself or me! i agree she`s a little young , but their faces are priceless i hope they enjoy her op!


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

wyntersmum said:


> its a loverly vid but im a bit unsure as both are older people and having a puppy may be alot for them to cope with. id be scared that if they dont see her and fall over her if there not that active in the (able to get off the floor way) whos going to help them up if they do fall over her. what about the walking i think the would have been better getting them an olde dog not a puppy. but all the best to them and i hope all goes well with everything.


Im quite suprised by this lol.

Lets treat each individual on there own merits - My Grandad is in his 80's and walks 6 Miles a day, prol longer than some dog walkers.

Its obvious they have a loving caring supportive family around them and retired people have the ultimate lifestyle to offer a pup in terms of the amount of time they can devote to them.

Life starts at 50 afterall! Let's hope they arnt on PF


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

Fantastic video, I thought they would scream and be skipping around, but they were soo emotional, calm and instantly in love with the little pup 

I wouldnt wrap a puppy up as a present for someone, without making certain it was most definately wanted by responsible people, but sounds like you covered all bases and brought this girl as a gift after talking seriously about it, which is great! If only more people were more responsible in that sense!

( as for the comments on my opinions of back yard breeders... thats best kept for other threads I think :thumbsup: )


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## LolaBoo (May 31, 2011)

wyntersmum said:


> its a loverly vid but im a bit unsure as both are older people and having a puppy may be alot for them to cope with. id be scared that if they dont see her and fall over her if there not that active in the (able to get off the floor way) whos going to help them up if they do fall over her. what about the walking i think the would have been better getting them an olde dog not a puppy. but all the best to them and i hope all goes well with everything.


Omg how can you say that

My parents are mum 67 and dad 77 and they are as fit as some 50 yr olds my dad more so he has rollerbladed for past 18 yrs and still does and they have 2 small young dogs 
As OP has said there 60 gawd if i was written of at 60 id be worried

Good luck to your inlaws bbear hope she brings them much happiness


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Amazing isn't it, all the reasons why some could be happy for another and yet all they seem to find is an excuse to complain. :frown:


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## bbear690 (Nov 23, 2010)

Zaros said:


> Amazing isn't it, all the reasons why some could be happy for another and yet all they seem to find is an excuse to complain. :frown:


Thanks xxx


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## bbear690 (Nov 23, 2010)

Here she is with my daughter, she is severely disabled and loves dogs, also lolly having a sniff lol










Proud parents x


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## bbear690 (Nov 23, 2010)




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## Rolosmum (Oct 29, 2010)

Well after reading the comments about tears i was all prepared to not cry! lol, it had tears streaming down my face!

I know the rights and wrongs of what should be bred and sold etc, and not actively encouraging the wrong ones, but it is likely to always happen and although i am a bit surprised at the young age of the pup i can see why having gone to so much travelling to get the pup to not get it then and know it was going to be left on its own would have been hard to walk away. Some breeders still believe (especially if they have been doing it for years and dont read research cos they 'know' what they are doing) whatever new guidelines/research suggest that 6 weeks is old enough rightly or wrongly. I guess it changes just like the age they recommend you wean a baby, the babies havent changed but the advice has.

I also dont agree with giving dogs just as a surprise, but this wasnt a full on surprise in they had no idea they were getting a dog and never had one before etc, it was clearly a case of just when, their reactions showed the sheer love this puppy is going to get and that is priceless.

I also know that age doesnt affect your ability to be mobile and have energy and time for a puppy, we at approaching 50 (well 46) have far more energy than in my 30's my dogs would have been the death of me then!

Good luck to them and i love the name!


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

awwww!!! i loved there reaction  very sweet


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I wouldn`t have thanked you for a surprise like that. I`m of the older persuasion and while I do like cuddles and cutesy pups... like grandchildren, the best bit is being able to hand them back and have a good nights sleep. 
Which this family isn`t going to get for quite a while. 
Then there`s the toilet training and the nipping and the lead training and the socialising ...
and just when you think you`re winning there come the Kevin months. And months. And months. (which coincidentally is when most Rescues come in). 
So if you had arrived on my doorstep with a 7 week old puppy you would have got a different response. 
But that`s just me. Let`s hope your in-laws have more energy than me.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Absolutely wonderful 

I noticed the 4x4 and trailer tent in front of their house so this dog is clearly going to an active home and will be holidaying lots. I love you parents reaction. That is a truly wonderful thing you did for them 

I think this is one of those threads where if you haven't got anything nice to say then just read, run and don't say anything.


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## WhiteRabbit (Jun 22, 2011)

Gotta love all the negative comments  (regardless of what they're aimed at, the irresponsible breeder, the buyer, they fact that the pup was a present, whatever.). Can't you just turn it off for once and just enjoy a good video and seeing happy faces? It goes against the grain for me, too (My first thought was, OH TOO YOUNG!), but sometimes you just get sick of your own voice... 

The video completely choked me up. I can't believe how happy they were, and the "I thought maybe for Christmas" comment had me in stitches, so you know they wanted one! So glad that they had such a lovely reaction  You just can't buy happiness like that and I'm sure that pup will be really loved.


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## wyntersmum (Jul 31, 2011)

bbear690 said:


> OMG, if they read this they would be devastated, they are only 60, they are active, walk miles every single day, my mother in law is a nurse and father in law still works sometimes helping to renovate houses. They are probably more active than most teenager/young adults who spend most of there lives sat at a computer screen


im sorry if i offended you. but i know older people at that age who are not active ect i was not daming them or you i dont like to upset people i was just noting a posibility. that IF they were not the active kind who are a little unsteady on there feet hell my mum is 55 and she has COPD if she gets in a hurry she has been known to fall over her own feet and then she goes goes into a panic and cant get up and has to be calmed down befor we can do anything about getting her up. all i was saying is maybe an older dog would have suted them better thats all.
im realy sorry if ive offended anyone.


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## wyntersmum (Jul 31, 2011)

diablo said:


> offs! what has someones age got to do with it ? they are probably more able to provide more time , more security , more love and affection to that little pup than say someone the same age as yourself or me! i agree she`s a little young , but their faces are priceless i hope they enjoy her op!


i have just explaind my comments. im not saying thare past it but i do know of people with health difficulties ect. they never mentioned at the beginning that they had disscused it with them did they as far as it sounded they just turned up with the puppy. so please calm down i didnt mean it in a nasty way but i suppose its how people interprate whats on the screan and how they think it sounds in there own mind.

oh and by the way i cant beleve that my comment over age has coursed so much outrage after reading some of the comments about byb ect thats been put befor my comment.
think this is going to turn into a wyntersmum/tara bashing.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

Oh yeah, of course. Let's turn off the negative comments and let these people enjoy their pup. And meanwhile lets let all those back yard bred pups/dogs enjoy being in rescue kennels or getting a wee injection.

But of course!! There's no correlation between this pup and them at all, because THIS ONE is going to a good home, right?

I think it's clear to see on this forum who's in this game for their selfish love of their pets, and who's in it for the bigger picture, for the welfare of ALL animals, the ones also as yet unborn.

This forum's gone far too fecking fluffy.


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2011)

wyntersmum said:


> i have just explaind my comments. im not saying thare past it but i do know of people with health difficulties ect. they never mentioned at the beginning that they had disscused it with them did they as far as it sounded they just turned up with the puppy. so please calm down i didnt mean it in a nasty way but i suppose its how people interprate whats on the screan and how they think it sounds in there own mind.
> 
> oh and by the way i cant beleve that my comment over age has coursed so much outrage after reading some of the comments about byb ect thats been put befor my comment.
> *think this is going to turn into a wyntersmum/tara bashing*.


what makes you think that ? 
will say you should not have assumed anything just because they are older people , not everyone of that age is in the same position as your mum. my in laws recently took on a great dane pup , a breed they have owned for 40+ years , who are you to say they should not have had one , or had one that was older without knowing anything about them ?


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## wyntersmum (Jul 31, 2011)

im not getting pulled into this ive explained my comments and that im sorry if i had offended anyone already.
im fat and people could say to me i shouldnt have a puppy because i wont exercise it but thats another pull in discusion and im not going there.


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## bbear690 (Nov 23, 2010)

I knew this thread would cause a stir, people have there own opinions and we all live our own lives, not everyone wants a rescue dog, not everyone wants a puppy, each to there own and all that!


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## ebonyblack (Sep 16, 2011)

Yup, the video brought tears to my eyes too. She looks like she will be well loved and cared for


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## bbear690 (Nov 23, 2010)

i still cry every time i watch it xxx

Was nice to make them so happy, they are the best inlaws and make great doogy parents, they have been so lonely and depressed since Rosie died, they have now got there spark back


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

wyntersmum said:


> its a loverly vid but im a bit unsure as both are older people and having a puppy may be alot for them to cope with. id be scared that if they dont see her and fall over her if there not that active in the (able to get off the floor way) whos going to help them up if they do fall over her. what about the walking i think the would have been better getting them an olde dog not a puppy. but all the best to them and i hope all goes well with everything.


Lab/Goldie crosses are often used as guide or assistance dogs for disabled people, once grown up a bit and with clearly experienced owners, it shouldn't be hard to train the pup to walk nicely and be a nice steady companion. There's a tiny lady in her late 80's near me walks a massive goldie with no problems. And that couple didn't look really old, the man looked quite fit.


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## tiggerthumper (Apr 22, 2011)

I think at this point all the negatives have been well and truly pointed out and there's no need for any more!
I think it's a fantastic video, it's clear from the photos that she is a real ray of sunshine for your in-laws and your daughter, and will be well loved and cared for!
Prince came from a byb, I know now having been here that I should have looked elsewhere for my pup, but then I didn't know. they were KC reg breeders, I seen the mum, the bitches were their family pets and were well and truly loved and now I have the most wonderful dog I could ask for  Not saying what I did was the right thing, but it certainly wasn't the worst, much like I'm sure the OP was made to feel.


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## Starfish (Jul 26, 2011)

Loved the vid, takes a lot to get me crying but that certainly choked me up!

Good on you bbear for bringing obvious happiness in to both the lives of your inlaws and the pup


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## bbear690 (Nov 23, 2010)

Starfish said:


> Loved the vid, takes a lot to get me crying but that certainly choked me up!
> 
> Good on you bbear for bringing obvious happiness in to both the lives of your inlaws and the pup


Thanks so much xxx we feel we have done the right thing and are inlaws are over joyed, they keep ringing with little updates lol.


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## bbear690 (Nov 23, 2010)

tiggerthumper said:


> I think at this point all the negatives have been well and truly pointed out and there's no need for any more!
> I think it's a fantastic video, it's clear from the photos that she is a real ray of sunshine for your in-laws and your daughter, and will be well loved and cared for!
> Prince came from a byb, I know now having been here that I should have looked elsewhere for my pup, but then I didn't know. they were KC reg breeders, I seen the mum, the bitches were their family pets and were well and truly loved and now I have the most wonderful dog I could ask for  Not saying what I did was the right thing, but it certainly wasn't the worst, much like I'm sure the OP was made to feel.


Thanks for you kind words, we too met mum and her aunty  The daddy dog was living next door and they had a little romance lol, And also not all KC breeders are good ones are they


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## Kivasmum (Aug 4, 2011)

aaaaaw that made me cry  not great when you are at work though  ha ha
they both look so happy, and that pup is beautiful :001_tt1:


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## slakey (May 9, 2009)

The dad was living next door, was this on a farm or something?

Did you ask about the hips and elbows and the eyes?

I'm gonna guess and say the pup was around £200, you know something cheap and easy to get rid of, ready for the next litter, feel sorry for the mum she'll probably get bred from again in maybe a month - two months time?

Bad buy, no matter how the dog will be treated. If you didn't see a elbow/hip score of parents and eye test, then you'll never be ready is that pups parent have bad scores...

Should've looked around more.


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## bbear690 (Nov 23, 2010)

It wasn't a farm no, it was a very nice family home. 

She has been vet checked and is a very healthy puppy


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## wyntersmum (Jul 31, 2011)

Burrowzig said:


> Lab/Goldie crosses are often used as guide or assistance dogs for disabled people, once grown up a bit and with clearly experienced owners, it shouldn't be hard to train the pup to walk nicely and be a nice steady companion. There's a tiny lady in her late 80's near me walks a massive goldie with no problems. And that couple didn't look really old, the man looked quite fit.


not going there. ive explained my thoughts already


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Zaros said:


> Amazing isn't it, all the reasons why some could be happy for another and yet all they seem to find is an excuse to complain. :frown:


Because some care about ethical breeding, in the hope that less dogs suffer! - Them that dont, or want to forget about the BYB in certain cases ect really couldnt care to much 

- This breeder has been supported and no doubt will breed again, pups left to young, parents not tested, didnt meet the owner, oh and only spent 1 hour with the person they sold to...I could go on but wont bother as the fluffy lot on here dont seem to have any sort of standards, sad really.
and as for a vet check thats not the same as health testing ....


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

WhiteRabbit said:


> Gotta love all the negative comments  (regardless of what they're aimed at, the irresponsible breeder, the buyer, they fact that the pup was a present, whatever.). Can't you just turn it off for once and just enjoy a good video and seeing happy faces?


Its comments like this that get to me more - why should someone keep quite about irresponsible breeders because of a cute video/pup - if we all did that then all unethical breeders would be forgiven. Its rather quite clear that irresponsible breeders will continue, as folk on here (who are meant to be the educated lot) continue to find excuses for them, and want others to forget how the pup was bred because someones happy - how so disrespect on the poor bitch that brought this pup into the world, and the many more she may - who cares about her or others like her, I mean the pups here now thats the only concern isnt it :mad2: flipping disgusting.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

I'm not sure what I'm more disturbed by - the fact that this puppy was bought as a present (all the way from Wales no less! - no surprise there  given that Wales is the puppy farming capital of the UK) or people's reactions that it there is nothing wrong with it, especially on a forum of animal lovers.

I have no worries that this is a great home, but that is the only positive in the whole sad thing.

I would NEVER let a puppy go as a present, no matter how nice the buyer was, I want to know the people who are buying my pups. Not only has this breeder let the pups go too young, they are obviously a byb or puppy farmer.
I can have no respect for someone who supports such breeders and by buying a puppy the OP is supporting them. It doesn't matter how much they claim that the puppy had to have a home - that is just an excuse - it is still supporting puppy farming and for every pup that is bought this way, even more will be bred.

Another thing that I find disturbing is that it is a selfish need to surprise someone. Nothing wrong with wanting to give a pup as a gift or surprise them, but there are ways to do it responsibly. Personally, I would be livid if someone actually chose a pup for me - I would want to do the choosing myself even if it was a gift, although I appreciate not everyone feels the same. If they wanted to give a pup for a present, then the responsible thing would have been to have given a card with a photo and information about breeders that have been researched and selected that the in laws could have gone to see - they excitement would have been the same, meeting breeders, meeting pups etc and if anything a much bigger deal than just arriving on the doorstep with a puppy bought from a puppy farmer put in a box and given like a commodity  It's a selfish and thoughtless way to go about what should have been a lovely thought and seems to have been done more for the effect the surprise would have on the in laws than on the puppy.


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## bbear690 (Nov 23, 2010)

Why do people always jump to conclusions all the time, we got a puppy how do you know we didn't talk to the breeder on the phone, yes we might have only been at the house for an hour but we do have children, one being severely disabled that we had to get home to bed, we spoke a lot on the phone prior to that to make she we happy about us having the pup, i don't know why i have to justify myself to anyone.

Just thought i would share a very happy and emotional video with you 

The puppy is well loved and in a fab home


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted by WhiteRabbit
> Gotta love all the negative comments (regardless of what they're aimed at, the irresponsible breeder, the buyer, they fact that the pup was a present, whatever.). Can't you just turn it off for once and just enjoy a good video and seeing happy faces?


No, because there are costs to those happy faces! It could have been done responsibly with equally happy faces. What a shame some can't see that


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

bbear the point is - no ethical breeder allows a pup to leave with someone they have known for an hour, no ethical breeder allows a pup to leave at 6 weeks, no ethical breeder breed without first carrying out the health tests, no ethical breeder will sell a pup without meeting, and speaking with the 'actual' owner themselves! There is alot proven here that suggests the breeder is less than ethical - what you done was a nice thing, its clear this pups going to be loved and has landed on its feet but that is not the point, for every pup brought from these breeders that lands on its feet 10 dont, the parents suffer also - being bred by these uncaring people. - People need to see the bigger picture here, it takes a truely caring person to see past the happiness of one pup - while making an educated guess as to what happens to all other dogs involved.


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## bbear690 (Nov 23, 2010)

kc registered dogs also end up in rescues......... any pup brought into this world is at risk given its background or not. 


Not everyone wants a rescue dog, we knew they wanted a pup, had to be a cross as thats what they had before, so we found them one 

They are happy, we are happy 

Puppy is very very happy


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## Kivasmum (Aug 4, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I could go on but wont bother as the fluffy lot on here dont seem to have any sort of standards, sad really.


not everyone is a dog and/or breeder expert like some apparently are! but does that mean they deserve to basically have the plight of every dog in rescue put squarely on their shoulders?? does it make them horrible immoral people?? NO IT DOESNT! i got kiva at just under 6 weeks old, she was no doubt born for monetary gain, and i dont have health test certificates, but i love her, care for her, socialise her, train her and spend every minute of every day doing my best to make sure she is a happy, social, friendly and loved family pet. and if she ever develops any problems due to her 'poor' breeding, then i will deal with them however they need to be dealt with. as dog lovers surely thats what counts?? where the dog ends up, not where it came from. yes i get that byb'ing is an issue but jeeeeez give people a break


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

no one has said that KC registered dogs dont end up in rescue  you are totally missing the point here and that is worrying! 
- not everyone wants a rescue, course not and thats their choice - but its not excuse to go to an irresponsible breeder, when there are responsible breeders around.

all you seem to care about is that these people are happy.. -


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Thanks so much xxx we feel we have done the right thing





> They are happy, we are happy


And to all those who say education is the key, here's one example of why education alone will never work! Some people just don't want to know and don't care - as long as they get the puppy.



> She has been vet checked and is a very healthy puppy


I hope she is and a vet check covers very little. You have absolutely no idea of whether she will be a healthy dog


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Kivasmum said:


> not everyone is a dog and/or breeder expert like some apparently are! but does that mean they deserve to basically have the plight of every dog in rescue put squarely on their shoulders?? does it make them horrible immoral people?? NO IT DOESNT! i got kiva at just under 6 weeks old, she was no doubt born for monetary gain, and i dont have health test certificates, but i love her, care for her, socialise her, train her and spend every minute of every day doing my best to make sure she is a happy, social, friendly and loved family pet. and if she ever develops any problems due to her 'poor' breeding, then i will deal with them however they need to be dealt with. as dog lovers surely thats what counts?? where the dog ends up, not where it came from. yes i get that byb'ing is an issue but jeeeeez give people a break


I have not put the blame for all dogs in rescue on their 'shoulders' 
I have merely pointed out what happens to these dogs when their no longer of use! as dog lovers its not about 'us' being happy, its about knowing that we have brought a pup from a decent place, no dogs will suffer at our purchase, due to lack of health testing and lack of care!

are people on this forum that selfish that their main concern is making themselves happy, and brushing under the carpet the way in which some dogs are bred - this thread is depressing, and has shown me that there are actually more selfish folk around than I first thought, whos needs are put before the welfare of dogs.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Because some care about ethical breeding, in the hope that less dogs suffer! - Them that dont, or want to forget about the BYB in certain cases ect really couldnt care to much


Are you just looking to stir trouble with everyone here?

This thread wasn't about BYB's it was about the evident happiness of a small number of people you and your miserable ilk are trying to steal the spotlight from.
I stand proudly upright against my statement and will further add;

Life appears to be overrun by critics, cynics and sceptics all too busy analysing the world about them whilst completely forgetting how to live and enjoy their own life.

These folks did their Homework. They did not venture out thoughtlessly and buy the first Dog from the first Breeder they came across in the Classifieds.

Be miserable by all means and if you find misery a lonely business don't expect others to be miserable with you!


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2011)

I have to agree with Devil-Dogz actually. Maybe this isn't the right thread to have this discussion on, but I do agree with her.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> you and your miserable ilk are trying to steal the spotlight from.


Oh please  What in immature and inaccurate observation 
Nobody is trying to steat the spotlight - nobody wants to see this sort of thing going on especially from supposed animal lovers.

I suspect others, like me are just appalled that so called animal lovers on a pet forum can be so irresponsible, support bybs and treat animals like a commodity, and are completely unable to see the bigger picture


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## bbear690 (Nov 23, 2010)

Zaros said:


> Are you just looking to stir trouble with everyone here?
> 
> This thread wasn't about BYB's it was about the evident happiness of a small number of people you and your miserable ilk are trying to steal the spotlight from.
> I stand proudly upright against my statement and will further add;
> ...


thankyou xxxx


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Im not trying to cause trouble, no - Im trying to point out why the buying/breeding of this pup was less than ethical on both parts.

This thread is not about BYBs no - and I am not trying to steal the spotlight at all. - If a dog is brought from a less than ethical breeder why shouldnt people point that out. - some of us actually do care about responsible breeding (and dont just pretend, like many on this thread)  and why are we going to push that under the carpet to support something that is causing dogs to suffer daily, because one pup has found a nice home - you must be mad if you think people will drop, and pick up their standards as and when they feel fit..

You all carry on to support this be my guest, but makes me laugh how folk will applaud the arrival of this pup - and tell folk to forget about the breeder, yet on another thread will cry at the horrible photos of dogs in rescues, with health issues because of lack of testing, or very frustrated and upset at articles on irresponsible breeders, attached with videos and images.

not as if I will be taking most folk seriously again on such threads, after seeing that they will support that very same breeding when they feel fit 



Zaros said:


> Are you just looking to stir trouble with everyone here?
> 
> This thread wasn't about BYB's it was about the evident happiness of a small number of people you and your miserable ilk are trying to steal the spotlight from.
> I stand proudly upright against my statement and will further add;
> ...


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> Oh please  What in immature and inaccurate observation
> Nobody is trying to steat the spotlight - nobody wants to see this sort of thing going on especially from supposed animal lovers.
> 
> I suspect others, like me are just appalled that so called animal lovers on a pet forum can be so irresponsible, support bybs and treat animals like a commodity, *and are completely unable to see the bigger picture*


That's the part that worries me most. Is that these people actually seem unable to comprehend WHY buying this pup was only good for the family and this pup. And the worst possible thing they could have done for the mother and subsequent litters. And not only that but what about the people that look on this forum, see a post like this and suddenly think it's okay to buy the dog they want, because you lot don't like the truth.

Truth is, OP, you've been around here long enough to know. And obviously you did know, otherwise your first post on the matter wouldn't have been on the defensive.


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## Kivasmum (Aug 4, 2011)

do you think of people in other countries starving every time you eat? do you think of the thousands of homeless people every time you get into your comfy bed? im guessing the answer is no! so the answer to your question is yes, most of us do what it takes to make ourselves and those closest to us happy. i will never put my needs before the welfare of MY dog, wherever she came from.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> Oh please  What in immature and inaccurate observation
> Nobody is trying to steat the spotlight - nobody wants to see this sort of thing going on especially from supposed animal lovers.
> 
> *I suspect others, like me are just appalled that so called animal lovers on a pet forum can be so irresponsible, support bybs* and treat animals like a commodity, and are completely unable to see the bigger picture


Perhaps I should have stated Self righteous or Holier than thou. Perhaps I'm not as well educated as you and that's where you will have to forgive my complete and utter shameful phuqin ignorance.
However despite my obviously poor intellect where are the posts in support of BYFB's.

This entire thread has been twisted out of all proportion! :mad2:


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## maryrose1977 (Aug 7, 2011)

I actually think its a lovely post. 

The inlaws are obviously absolutely smitten with their new family member. 

Its such a cute video.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Kivasmum said:


> do you think of people in other countries starving every time you eat? do you think of the thousands of homeless people every time you get into your comfy bed? im guessing the answer is no! so the answer to your question is yes, most of us do what it takes to make ourselves and those closest to us happy. i will never put my needs before the welfare of MY dog, wherever she came from.


How the hell can you compare that to buying from a BYB! Jeez if you buy from a good breeder, its simple you have not supported anything dodgy, you in the long run havent caused dogs to suffer.

- You would your needs before the welfare of your dog  ...


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Two key points to me are...
> 
> Its 6 weeks old and is away from its dam and siblings..
> Its been sold to someone other than its ' owner to be ' .. Breeder knew this


And it isn't vaccinated.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Zaros said:


> This entire thread has been twisted out of all proportion! :mad2:


I beg you to say that again when you spend day in day out helping people who have brought dogs from bad breeders who have left their small wee pup suffering, when you work with rescue day in day out, spending your own time and money on picking up the peices of breeders you would never have supported in the first place - or even if you spend all your time trying to educate people on the dos and donts of breeding and buying. - It would seem them that can only see happy people dont or wont work to help save the very animals that are left because of the irresponsible breeding and buying of them...surprised..nope..


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

What's vaccination got to do with it? Lol


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> This thread wasn't about BYB's


No, byb is only a part of it. It shows a puppy being used as a commodity and the end justifying the means 



> Perhaps I should have stated Self righteous or Holier than thou.


People who care are 'self righteous or holier than !  No wonder we live in a society that thinks only of themselves and what they can get out of it


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

It's a lovely touching video and i wish them many years of happy healthy doggy fun :thumbup:

but surely people can see the point others are making here too and allow them to make that point without WW3 breaking out  

I buy Fairtrade chocolate because i hope it means i can have my bit of pleasure without someone else being exploited, it's the same point so saying all that matters is a happy outcome" is a bit like me scoffing my non fairtrade chocolate and saying tough boobies to the poor exploited farmers and their families, i am alright jack 

It's a valid point and with a breed so decimated by Hip and Elbow displacia it would be wrong if someone didn't point that out on a public forum  Maybe ask some of the members on here whose ddogs have suffered from these conditions if they wished they had brought from tested parents


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I beg you to say that again when you spend day in day out helping people who have brought dogs from bad breeders who have left their small wee pup suffering, when you work with rescue day in day out, spending your own time and money on picking up the peices of breeders you would never have supported in the first place - or even if you spend all your time trying to educate people on the dos and donts of breeding and buying. - It would seem them that can only see happy people dont or wont work to help save the very animals that are left because of the irresponsible breeding and buying of them...surprised..nope..


I'm well aware of what goes on in this world and, with respect, perhaps more than you're ever likely to comprehend? 
But sensibility tells me some are just seeing things that were just never there to see in the first place. This was an innocent video completely dismantled and analysed by minds acutely aware of how sinister the world can be.

If this had been a John Lewis Advert on the TV it would have been taken off air very shortly after the first broadcast!


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

Sacremist said:


> And it isn't vaccinated.


Nor are most puppies you get no matter were you buy? So that has nothing to do with it??


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## Kivasmum (Aug 4, 2011)

Kivasmum said:


> i will never put my needs before the welfare of MY dog, wherever she came from.


read it again  lol


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Manoy Moneelil said:


> with consideration to proper BARF feeding .


Why should a potential owner have to commit to feeding a dog only in the way that another person considers fit? What is considered good or bad diet is a contentious issue. No-one has the right to tell someone else how to feed their pet or tell them they are wrong. You can suggest a diet because it is what you consider best but you have no right to tell someone they are not fit to have a dog because they do not agree with your rules.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Kivasmum said:


> read it again  lol


My bad - so I do apologise..


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Zaros said:


> I'm well aware of what goes on in this world and, with respect, perhaps more than you're ever likely to comprehend?
> But sensibility tells me some are just seeing things that were just never there to see in the first place. This was an innocent video completely dismantled and analysed by minds acutely aware of how sinister the world can be.
> 
> If this had been a John Lewis Advert on the TV it would have been taken off air very shortly after the first broadcast!


Perhaps more than I can ever comprehend. - But I have seen enough in my short while to never agree with this sort of thing - and to speak up against it, not as if the dogs can


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2011)

Lovely video, here's hoping they have a long & healthy life with new pup 

****

In all honesty, personally I couldn't give a family member a life changing pet knowing it was to young, will you be there to support them down the line if the two very important socialising weeks the pup has missed out on has a detrimental effect on it  have the parents had all the health tests required?? No way could I deal with the 'what ifs' it could potentially have a hereditary illness, imagine the guilt down the line, a beloved family pet poorly because it wasn't health tested! 

*****

Here's hoping it grows into a lovely well adjusted pet with no health problems.


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## Mumbles (Apr 17, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I have not put the blame for all dogs in rescue on their 'shoulders'
> I have merely pointed out what happens to these dogs when their no longer of use! as dog lovers its not about 'us' being happy, its about knowing that we have brought a pup from a decent place, no dogs will suffer at our purchase, due to lack of health testing and lack of care!
> 
> are people on this forum that selfish that their main concern is making themselves happy, and brushing under the carpet the way in which some dogs are bred - this thread is depressing, and has shown me that there are actually more selfish folk around than I first thought, whos needs are put before the welfare of dogs.


I think that you are being slightly unfair, i think the issue here is more the fact that people are unaware. Until i joined this forum after i had brought Toodles i had no idea how bad the situation is with rescues and people breeding horribly. I had heard of puppy farms etc but didn't how much it occurs i thought if i went to the house saw the mum and pups together and they were kc registered then it would be kosher, maybe that was me being naive or stupid, but as i said totally unaware of how bad things actually are.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Mumbles said:


> I think that you are being slightly unfair, i think the issue here is more the fact that people are unaware. Until i joined this forum after i had brought Toodles i had no idea how bad the situation is with rescues and people breeding horribly. I had heard of puppy farms etc but didn't how much it occurs i thought if i went to the house saw the mum and pups together and they were kc registered then it would be kosher, maybe that was me being naive or stupid, but as i said totally unaware of how bad things actually are.


I get that people are uneducated, I cant blame people for that - nor being fooled.- my issue here is with everyone applauding the arrival of this pup, and suggesting that we should forget where the dog come from 
- how does this help educate more people? - or show folk whats right and whats not?
There are so many things in this case alone that is not good the breeders ethics stink.

I also wish people would understand that ANY breeder, can become a KC registered breeder. I could join tomorrow, never having bred a litter. Being registered with them does not mean that they are ethical - its one step, theres alot more to consider.

Im not trying to be harsh or unfair, I am being honest..


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## vickieb (Nov 22, 2010)

Jesus H Ch1st! does every bloody thread have to get bombarded with the 'OH THATS AWFUL, OH byb, Oh the rest will be dead with in a week!!!!!

Im sick of reading the same old stuff! Yes maybe the pup is too young, but for g0d sake! she was just sharing a nice vid so can the usual people that say the same thing and get all High and mighty leave it alone and let some people just share stuff and chat with out the witch hunt coming out! Jeeeeeeeeeez

yes you are allowed an opinion, but EVERY TIME!!! is it really NEEDED. 

Lovley vid by the way.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Perhaps more than I can ever comprehend. - But I have seen enough in my short while to never agree with this sort of thing - and to speak up against it, not as if the dogs can


I agree that more should be done to put an end to these BYB's once and for all and, in truth, if it wasn't for the exploits of these indifferent and opportunistic folks, then I'm sure you would have been only too happy to add a more positive comment to this thread.
Instead you've allowed these scurrilous individuals to affect your life to such an extent you're hardly able to distinguish the good from the bad.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Yes it is really needed because the problem with such breeders becomes bigger daily. Some might be able to sit back and forget the issues, I wont! - I personally think people dont want to read about it because they like to hide their heads in the sand, if they dont see whats going on they like to believe its not really happening..


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Shrap said:


> What's vaccination got to do with it? Lol


I was just pointing out another clue to the pup not coming from an ethical breeder in response to the other post I quoted. It is a clue.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Daynna said:


> Nor are most puppies you get no matter were you buy? So that has nothing to do with it??


They should be, though, that is my point. If people want to set themselves up as ethical breeders then they would not let a pup go without full vaccination. In cat breeding, any registered breeder who let a kitten go that wasn't vaccinated would be struck off.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Zaros said:


> I agree that more should be done to put an end to these BYB's once and for all and, in truth, if it wasn't for the exploits of these indifferent and opportunistic folks, then I'm sure you would have been only too happy to add a more positive comment to this thread.
> Instead you've allowed these scurrilous individuals to affect your life to such an extent you're hardly able to distinguish the good from the bad.


Yes these scurrilous individuals affect my life daily, afterall with a number of dogs here being fostered through our rescue likely to have been bred by these idiots all needing homes, I see the first hand damage. - Having to sit here and comfort a poor, un knowing dog while fitting because the person who bred her couldnt have cared less - not testing, no thought to the mating and then handed in because ' they didnt want to deal with her issues ' ..

Until people realise that supporting these breeders only calls for a bigger supply I shall continue to point out why its wrong, and why it needs to end..

You can all call me what you want, I couldnt give a flying monkey - dogs cant talk for themselves, choose where or why their born its down to us to educate people correctly so less suffer - if that means everyone on here hates me..Im proud :aureola:


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## vickieb (Nov 22, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Yes it is really needed because the problem with such breeders becomes bigger daily. Some might be able to sit back and forget the issues, I wont! - I personally think people dont want to read about it because they like to hide their heads in the sand, if they dont see whats going on they like to believe its not really happening..


No one is hiding their heads..... I for one know how many dogs end up in bad places....

But really, its EVERY thread nearly..... just let some people share things without slating their every move and gathering the Mob along the way.

far too many people think they are the last word in dog care and whats best on this forum. FAR too many.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> They should be, though, that is my point. If people want to set themselves up as ethical breeders then they would not let a pup go without full vaccination. In cat breeding, any registered breeder who let a kitten go that wasn't vaccinated would be struck off.


Do you know why I dont vaccinate my pups before they go at 8 weeks of age huh?? Please dont presume and lump me in with an 'unethical' breeder.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

vickieb said:


> But really, its EVERY thread nearly..... just let some people share things without slating their every move and gathering the Mob along the way.


It being in nearly every thread just proves how big of a problem it is  - that cant be ignored, with how many members on here our spouting about ethical breedings got to get somewhere...


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## shirleystarr (Mar 22, 2009)

Well I for one loved the video and the looks on mum and dad in laws face when the saw the pup I am sure they will make great owners they are fit and healthy and btw I am 66 years old have 4 dogs and walk them miles each day so much for old age then lmao
On the point of byb how do you know thats what it was sounds to me like the mom was a family dog who had a love affair with the doggy next door so what it happens .
I now what puppy farms are like and they aint like that at all and I rescue dogs from puppy farms all the time there are hundreds of then in South Wales where I live
The mum and dad inlaw lost their dog they wanted another same breed they got their wish This is the most lovely video I have seen .
mum and dad in law are happy they were depressed after losing their dog priceless expressions on dads face too I think that pup with have a great home lots of love lots of walks surely thats what the vid was about 
On top of that a lot of KC Breeders let the pups go at 6 weeks too.
OK I have had my say just like to say to the OP well done you made 2 lonely people very happy :thumbup:


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## Tarnus (Apr 5, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> They should be, though, that is my point. If people want to set themselves up as ethical breeders then they would not let a pup go without full vaccination. In cat breeding, any registered breeder who let a kitten go that wasn't vaccinated would be struck off.


I would have said that if a puppy is being sold at 8 weeks then it shouldn't have it's first vaccine. It would be better for the puppy to be taken to their new vets to complete the full course of vaccines instead of having one do the first and a new vet do the second.

As for the rest of the thread, if it carries on like this all I can say is - Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. It's bound to happen


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Ceearott said:


> Do you know why I dont vaccinate my pups before they go at 8 weeks of age huh?? Please dont presume and lump me in with an 'unethical' breeder.


If they are too young to be vaccinated at 8 weeks or whatever reason why they are not vaccinated, the solution is simple: you keep the pups for longer. Kittens do not leave their mothers till they are 12-13 weeks old. All kittens registered with the GCCF are fully vaccinated and health checked. The same rules should apply to puppies.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

shirleystarr said:


> On top of that a lot of KC Breeders let the pups go at 6 weeks too.


That being agaisnt the rules of the KC I doubt *a lot* do..Infact if you know of a breeder carrying out this practice, please report them.


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## shirleystarr (Mar 22, 2009)

alread reported 4 of them doubt the KC will do anything about it though


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> If they are too young to be vaccinated at 8 weeks or whatever reason why they are not vaccinated, the solution is simple: you keep the pups for longer. Kittens do not leave their mothers till they are 12-13 weeks old. All kittens registered with the GCCF are fully vaccinated and health checked. The same rules should apply to puppies.


Kittens are NOT the same as puppies!:mad2: I know nowt about cats nor the breeding of them so would not be so presumptous as to comment blindly on the vaccination programs they do or dont need.

Puppies I breed are not vaccinated by me at 8 weeks of age as I consider that to be too young as they can carry mams immunity until up to 14 weeks of age - are you seriously suggesting I keep a litter of 10 rottweiler puppies until 14 weeks of age - FFS - thats madness and shows you know NOTHING about the socialisation needs of young puppies.:mad2::mad2:

My buyers are given loads of info about vacinations and are then told to make their own minds up as to whether they vaccinate at 8 weeks when they get the pup or wait - its called freedom of choice - an 'informed' one!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

shirleystarr said:


> alread reported 4 of them doubt the KC will do anything about it though


what makes you doubt it - there have been a number of breeders checked because of reports 

- People often slate the KC - but atleast there is some sort of back up, somewhere to report to, somewhere to go for advise and the like!

I also find it strange that people will slate the KC yet are willing to support litters born by any tom, dick or harry with out even the basic of care there for the puppies..


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## Rolosmum (Oct 29, 2010)

Well one vet in our area is doing vaccs at 10, 12 and 16 weeks now, so are you saying all breeders should keep all pups until the end of the 16 weeks. I do not feel it is wrong for a puppy to be sold to a home and for it to be the new owners responsibility to get the vaccs done, another vet here will only do 10 and 12 weeks, surely that is an important time for the puppy to be with the new owner.

And do the vaccs have some tailoring to the area you are having them done in, something someone mentioned to me once which is why there are different first vacs as some things are more rife in some areas.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Ceearott said:


> Kittens are NOT the same as puppies!:mad2: I know nowt about cats nor the breeding of them so would not be so presumptous as to comment blindly on the vaccination programs they do or dont need.
> 
> Puppies I breed are not vaccinated by me at 8 weeks of age as I consider that to be too young as they can carry mams immunity until up to 14 weeks of age - are you seriously suggesting I keep a litter of 10 rottweiler puppies until 14 weeks of age - FFS - thats madness and shows you know NOTHING about the socialisation needs of young puppies.:mad2::mad2:
> 
> My buyers are given loads of info about vacinations and are then told to make their own minds up as to whether they vaccinate at 8 weeks when they get the pup or wait - its called freedom of choice - an 'informed' one!


Excuses! Excuses!


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> Excuses! Excuses!


Excuses excuses huh?? I notice you only pop up to be controversial, lol! Crack on hinny, coz I will bite no further


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Rolosmum said:


> Well one vet in our area is doing vaccs at 10, 12 and 16 weeks now, so are you saying all breeders should keep all pups until the end of the 16 weeks. I do not feel it is wrong for a puppy to be sold to a home and for it to be the new owners responsibility to get the vaccs done, another vet here will only do 10 and 12 weeks, surely that is an important time for the puppy to be with the new owner.
> 
> And do the vaccs have some tailoring to the area you are having them done in, something someone mentioned to me once which is why there are different first vacs as some things are more rife in some areas.


Oh thats just EXCUSES EXCUSES lol! Someon ought to tell ya vet thats just plain EXCUSES EXCUSES!!! PMSL!!!!


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

Lovely video  I wish I got presents like that (tho i'd want to choose myself!)

it seems like they will be great owners, I honestly think you done all you could. Yes if this was a pedigree you could have done better, but they WANTED a cross. And as has been said on these forum time and time again, its very rare to find a responsibly bred cross! 

The pups were raised in the home, from the sounds of it it was an accidental mating, and the breeder wasnt happy at 1st about the idea of the pup being a gift, so its not like they just said 'yea here ya go', they took some persuading

Im all for responsible breeding etc etc, but in this case there's nothing we can do, the pup is with the owners, the owners are clearly overjoyed and will give the pup a good home. If this had been a 'i plan to get this pup for my in-laws' post, i would understand. But its not, so lets just let it go. The point has been made!


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## Rolosmum (Oct 29, 2010)

Ceearott said:


> Oh thats just EXCUSES EXCUSES lol! Someon ought to tell ya vet thats just plain EXCUSES EXCUSES!!! PMSL!!!!


Well someone ought to tell all of the vets in our area, cos they are all saying the same, not to me, but the wealth of pups that my friends are getting at the moment and all for different reasons going to different vets. I personally think it wasnt a completely unplanned gesture, yes i too would want to choose my own puppy, but then i only have me to buy it for me!

I also think ideally health tested parents are the way to go, but i am the proud owner of two untested dogs, partly through ignorance in the first place and secondly through loving the first one so much. I do know that the breeder works his dogs and without any affected conditions and like a good few gun dog breeders breeds for his own needs and knows the history of his dogs etc, but now if i was buying i would go for the health tested dogs.


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## Starfish (Jul 26, 2011)

It's amazing how many of the posters have such utterly contradictory comments riddle throughout their posts, I'm not excited enough to quote each one individually to point out the exact remarks, but the whole "unless puppies are vaccinated before they leave then the breeder it's not ethical" and someone else said "I'd never give a puppy as a gift" only for two sentances later says "I would gift a puppy as a gift but.." just utterly yanks my chain..

I mean really, everyone is a f*****g expert it seems 

I don't think I've seen a comment where someone has congratulated on the video and then said we should forget where the puppy came from. Why is it that when people become so utterly enthralled in voicing their opinion, they forget to consider the mitigating events leading up to the situation? I think it was already mentioned that they researched the puppies, had extensive conversations on the phone with the breeder etc but no, it's far too easy for people to leap on the soap box and *ASSUME* that it was more along the lines of dropping a pin in a pet trade advert and going for that one.

Part of me wants to show empathy and understanding to those who are clearly very stoic in their BYB and rescue dog campaign, but the sheer pig-headedness and relentless pursuit of ramming it down people's throats just leave me irritated. I'm sure people have had terrible experiences with the above and this has left them jaded, but drop some of the curtain-twitcher behaviours and accept this thread for what it is.

Let he without sin cast the first stone, and all that jazz.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Starfish said:


> It's amazing how many of the posters have such utterly contradictory comments riddle throughout their posts, *I'm not **excited enough *to quote each one individually to point out the exact remarks, but the whole "unless puppies are vaccinated before they leave then the breeder it's not ethical" and someone else said "I'd never give a puppy as a gift" only for two sentances later says "I would gift a puppy as a gift but.." just utterly yanks my chain..
> 
> I mean really, everyone is a f*****g expert it seems
> 
> ...


That bit really tickled me, PMSL!!!!!


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## Starfish (Jul 26, 2011)

Ceearott said:


> That bit really tickled me, PMSL!!!!!


Now now Mrs C, can't be laughing when you've just been outed for not being an ethical breeder, given you don't vacc pups before 8 weeks!! Tsk 

On another note glad I tickled you with that


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Starfish said:


> I don't think I've seen a comment where someone has congratulated on the video and then said we should forget where the puppy came from.


Maybe you should spend a wee bit more time reading the thread, as more than one member said the above! 

You dont have to be an expert to have high standards with regards to buying, breeding and selling - living, breathing things 

I also am sick of reading about, they did their research - so what again thats not the point, and if its true research was done it lacked - as an irresponsible breeder was brought from..

(I always am quite ammused that folk will come on these threads simply to jump on the members who have apparently jumped on the OP - pfft..all as bad as each other then ent we!) :scared:


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Starfish said:


> Now now Mrs C, can't be laughing when you've just been outed for not being an ethical breeder, given you don't vacc pups before 8 weeks!! Tsk
> 
> On another note glad I tickled you with that


EEww, I know!! I have been sitting in the naughty corner hanging me head in shame - I must I must improve my ethics!!

Do I give a toss??????????????????????????/

:laugh::ciappa::ciappa::dita::dita::bored::Yawn:


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## Starfish (Jul 26, 2011)

Devil-Dogz, I think you've hit the nail on the head there, we really are all as bad as each other when it comes to voicing a heartfelt opinion, and I suppose that is the crux of it.

Everyone will ultimately do what they feel is right in any given situation (as applies to everything in all fairness), such as you get some people purchasing a puppy from a BYB because they feel it's the only way they can offer a real chance to said pup, or, someone who genuinely does their best to research and evaluate a KC reg breeder, only to still be duped through their own naivety. As pet owners we could follow rules to the enth degree but someone somewhere will always lose out, all we can do is make the best of the situation and appreciate it for what it is - In an ideal world no one would ever do anything wrong and we'd all crap rainbows, but sadly this isn't the case.



Ceearott said:


> EEww, I know!! I have been sitting in the naughty corner hanging me head in shame - I must I must improve my ethics!!
> 
> Do I give a toss??????????????????????????/
> 
> :laugh::ciappa::ciappa::dita::dita::bored::Yawn:


I must, I must, I must improve my bust


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Starfish said:


> Devil-Dogz, I think you've hit the nail on the head there, we really are all as bad as each other when it comes to voicing a heartfelt opinion, and I suppose that is the crux of it.
> 
> Everyone will ultimately do what they feel is right in any given situation (as applies to everything in all fairness), such as you get some people purchasing a puppy from a BYB because they feel it's the only way they can offer a real chance to said pup, or, someone who genuinely does their best to research and evaluate a KC reg breeder, only to still be duped through their own naivety. As pet owners we could follow rules to the enth degree but someone somewhere will always lose out, all we can do is make the best of the situation and appreciate it for what it is - In an ideal world no one would ever do anything wrong and we'd all crap rainbows, but sadly this isn't the case.
> 
> I must, I must, I must improve my bust


My bust doesnt need improving, lol!! especially the amount of weight I have put on since quitting the terrible white sticks, lol - OH aint complaining like, PMSL!!

I wouldnt like to crap rainbows either - you can never find the end for a start!!


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## Starfish (Jul 26, 2011)

Ceearott said:


> I wouldnt like to crap rainbows either - you can never find the end for a start!!


Try explaining that one to the plumber :lol:


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Starfish said:


> Try explaining that one to the plumber :lol:


Well, I guess you might find Judy Garland at one end!!:lol::lol:


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> If they are too young to be vaccinated at 8 weeks or whatever reason why they are not vaccinated, the solution is simple: you keep the pups for longer. Kittens do not leave their mothers till they are 12-13 weeks old. All kittens registered with the GCCF are fully vaccinated and health checked. The same rules should apply to puppies.


puppies are not kittens , each week that passes is a crucial socialization point for a dog , the longer a pup remains in a breeders care , the worst things can be for them when placed in another home.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

diablo said:


> puppies are not kittens , each week that passes is a crucial socialization point for a dog , the longer a pup remains in a breeders care , the worst things can be for them when placed in another home.


Oh now hey!! Thats just excuses that is!!!! EXCUSES EXCUSES!!!!!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I perfectly understand everything breeders say about byb's and irresponsible breeding and I agree with it to some extent. The problem I have is breeders say you shouldn't breed unless you have shown and your dog is a good example of the breed, also you shouldn't breed unless you want to keep one for yourself. Some on here have had as little as two litters in five years. That leaves me wondering if "good ethical breeders" breed so very rarely who is going to supply people like me who want pets? Surely a breeder who doesn't show but health tests and supplies the people who are looking for family pets should be encouraged but I have read to the contrary. 

"How do you know your dog is a good example of the breed if you don't show?" I have read this often but we can't all wait for good breeders to decide to have a litter, they often have waiting lists too that exceed the amount of pups they have. People like me would NEVER have a dog if we waited for people to breed and decide to allow us to have one of their pups. On the Mal forum you rarely see a litter announced and when you do they are all taken and some people let down. 

Do you think that there is a place for health tested pet breeders, I don't mean showing as very many people don't like the show world - even some Mal "showers" have said how incredibly competitive and bitchy it can be, with one person on the Mal forum having her dogs doped while she showed another and left them unattended.

If we don't make way for health tested pet breeders then people will go to byb's as they have no choice. Health tested pet breeds may not be perfect examples, but they aren't with what byb's are churning out and they are not health tested which to me is far worse.

Just a thought!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

I must admit to never reading a comment suggesting that you shouldnt breed if you havent shown your dog. It may have been suggested, as its a good way to get unbaised views on the dogs quality, from various people and up agaisnt others of the same breed. - But showing is not the bee all and end all, there are other areas you can breed for and infact some show people will breed on from dogs that have not made it to the ring - that comes with being experienced, educated and breeding to aim for something. no dogs perfect, but some faults mean a dog would do poor in the ring - however put to the right dog you can achieve puppies that are likely to not have the same faults as the parent.

There are many people on here, even ethical breeders that have no problems with pet breeders as long as their ethics are up to scratch with health testing and the like. - not something I personally agree with, however I can accept it - although will never understand why someone would risk a dogs life just to make others happy, while supplying a pet market (thats just me though!)

with regards to breeders, breeding and keeping - I do feel that any ethical breeder will aim to keep a pup - it doesnt always work like that as there may not be something that is good enough for the breeder to work/show on from.- But the intention was there.

- If someone is breeding without that aim it leaves me wondering why they are breeding? Just to sell puppiesn to others, if so that means money has become a motive or factor in choosing to breed.


(all just my opinion of course)


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

The fact that the puppy was bought from a byb or puppy farmer is inevitable. There is no way a good breeder would let a pup go to someone as a present in the way that pup went. So, enough said.

What I find more disturbing is the number of people that find it acceptable (and great even) that think it's fine to go and buy a puppy, put it in a cardboard box and deliver it saying 'surprise' here's your birthday present 

No one could not be moved by the parent's reaction when watching the video. Most of us will have lost our beloved dogs/pets at some time and those that haven't will be empathising. That is not the point. 
In spite of being moved by the kindness in getting the parents a puppy, THE END DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS. Sadly, some on here think the means doesn't matter as long as there's a happy ending .

If the video had been them going in with a card and a photo of a potential puppy, a date to go and see the puppies etc..... the effect would have been the same, but it would have had neither the ramifications of buying from a byb nor the bad taste it leaves treating the puppy like a commodity rather than a living creature.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Starfish said:


> It's amazing how many of the posters have such utterly contradictory comments riddle throughout their posts, I'm not excited enough to quote each one individually to point out the exact remarks, but the whole "unless puppies are vaccinated before they leave then the breeder it's not ethical" and someone else said "I'd never give a puppy as a gift" only for two sentances later says "I would gift a puppy as a gift but.." just utterly yanks my chain..
> 
> I mean really, everyone is a f*****g expert it seems
> 
> ...


What makes you think my comment is so contradictory. Perhaps you read it wrong or maybe you just don't get irony. Your post was quite long considering you weren't that excited. LOL!


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Starfish said:


> Now now Mrs C, can't be laughing when you've just been outed for not being an ethical breeder, given you don't vacc pups before 8 weeks!! Tsk
> 
> On another note glad I tickled you with that


Who said pups should be vaccinated before 8 weeks. Clearly you cannot read.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Ceearott said:


> EEww, I know!! I have been sitting in the naughty corner hanging me head in shame - I must I must improve my ethics!!
> 
> Do I give a toss??????????????????????????/
> 
> :laugh::ciappa::ciappa::dita::dita::bored::Yawn:


PMSL! Clearly you don't that's why you can't shut up about it. LOL!


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

The show ring is supposed to be somewhere to show off your dog and have judges compare it and decide whether it's a good example of the breed and to earn trophies, ribbons, the admiration of your peers and the satisfaction of a job well done. If showing is your interest, hobby and lifestyle, that's great.

However, I think it's no more ethical, breeding in the hope of getting that perfect show ring example and selling the rest, than it is breeding a litter because your mum wants a dog just like yours, in some cases it's less ethical breeding for the show ring. Sorry DD.

Some people would like to be hobby breeders. Breeding for the perfect health and temperament, because they enjoy breeding. They enjoy the process, they get satisfaction from breeding healthy, well socialised and nurtured pups and meeting the challenge of finding them the perfect home.

Unfortunately with the current situation with puppy mills, bad bybs and rescue centres bulging at the seams, there is little room for this kind of breeder. So one can only deduce that it leaves people who want to buy ethically, with only the choice of rejected show puppies. Thanks a lot.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

You dont need to be sorry, your entitled to your opinion  I just happen to disagree, that breeding because someone wants a dog just like the female having a litter is a poor excuse - and its likely that pups will be nothing like the mother. a show breeder will keep the best one or two pups from a litter, it does not mean the others are rejected show dogs. we have dogs that are good enough for the ring in agility/pet homes


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

bbear690 said:


> Surprise its a puppy - YouTube
> 
> I know 6 weeks is young, she is closer to 7 and totally weened from mum and she has my doggie to learn off being a good girl, she was in a little of 9 and all the other puppies where going to new homes so we decided to take her too, i thought that she was 8 weeks but after driving 3 hrs i wasn't going to be returning lol, she is adorable and doing really well, nearly doing all her sees and poos on paper, she has some puppy milk too that she loves, anyway the video is fab, have a look xx


What a beautiful puppy.. And your P.I.L looked so happy..


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

OK ..what do we have here ..

A puppy in a gift wrapped box
A puppy underage and *way *too quiet 
A puppy from unhealth tested parents
A puppy from Wales ( the capital centre of puppy farming ! ) 
A puppy that has been sold without a breeders contract to protect it - ( and did it come with a diet sheet and supply of food- the rest of it's worming tablets and details of it's worming programme, a piece of vet bed and an advice booklet ? ..... I'm not holding my breath here ) 
A puppy from a supposedly 'accidental' mating that has knowingly been sold by the breeder as a surprise present for a third party

.......now just *one* of those thing would be wrong - but ALL of them ?

you know - for every puppy bought in this careless unthinking way there is some poor bitch condemned to churn out litter after litter until she is dumped on places like Many Tears http://www.freewebs.com/manytearsrescue/- go on take a look , it's it's called Many Tears for good reason :frown: ....

I truly don't know how we get through to people when good folks like yourselves just cannot see the connection - for pity's sake STOP the endless misery that is puppy farming by refusing to buy from places like this .


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## bbear690 (Nov 23, 2010)

uuuh hang on a minute, how to you know she was WAY too quite :/ She is lively, she has just woke up so do you dance around when you have just woken up

yes we did get puppy food but she was feeding her tesco puppy, she is now on Jwb on advice from me and what we feed lolly on

She has a blanket that was rubbed on mum so she could smell her on her first night 

Anyway i don't feel i have to explain myself to anyone, i don't come on here that often and thought i would share some nice news but i seem to have been jumped on

Atleast this puppy is being loved and looked after


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2011)

some on here should wind their necks in a bit.....ethicaly this was wrong,bad breeder etc.....but it wa done in good heart,and th dog is going to a loving home.....please remember,not everyone is a dog/breeder expert...i understand about byb,etc...but some people dont,educate them,yes,but dont belittle them,im sure your all not experts in everything in life,so just remember this,or you may be treated like this by people in other fields of expertise!!!!!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Well said Albert - am so fed up with people on here and their high horses!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Malmum said:


> Well said Albert - am so fed up with people on here and their high horses!


Just like some of us are fed up of folk supporting less than ethical breeders (and others seeing no issue with it) - leaving dogs to suffer! - Know which I would rather be..


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## LolaBoo (May 31, 2011)

Jeeez ok ive read this crap all day and i am sick to death of ppl thinking its ok to come on here and shred other ppls threads

This debate or should i say witch hunt has gone on long enough i think personally this thread should be closed now coz enough is enough!


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Just like some of us are fed up of folk supporting less than ethical breeders (and others seeing no issue with it) - leaving dogs to suffer! - Know which I would rather be..


we know all this,do you think the op wants dogs to suffer...of course not,theyre not as knowedgable as you.....its right to point it out,but sometmes it goes too far!


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

julesmcc said:


> Jeeez ok ive read this crap all day and i am sick to death of ppl thinking its ok to come on here and shred other ppls threads
> 
> This debate or should i say witch hunt has gone on long enough i think personally this thread should be closed now coz enough is enough!


I thought you were sitting on your hands Jules!!!:confused1:


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> we know all this,do you think the op wants dogs to suffer...of course not,theyre not as knowedgable as you.....its right to point it out,but sometmes it goes too far!


I fail to see how you can go to far in educating people against these breeders - I am far from knowledgable - I just know how to respect an animals life, by ensuring no other suffered while producing more... People want others to keep hush, lock threads not speak up ect' that achieves nothing 

- This forum drives me mad :mad2:


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

bbear690 said:


> uuuh hang on a minute, how to you know she was WAY too quite :/ She is lively, she has just woke up so do you dance around when you have just woken up
> 
> yes we did get puppy food but she was feeding her tesco puppy, she is now on Jwb on advice from me and what we feed lolly on
> 
> ...


You are right you do not need to justify yourself..  Puppy looks lovely.. Puppy has a great home.. Jeepers.. I know all about rescues etc.. But its happened and the puppy is in quite capable and loving hands..


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## LolaBoo (May 31, 2011)

Ceearott said:


> I thought you were sitting on your hands Jules!!!:confused1:


I have done all day babe and enough is enough now 

And also me hands are numb


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Malmum said:


> Gawd sometimes I just wish people would lighten up and forget all the byb comments.
> 
> She is gogeous and mum and dad look sooo chuffed, bet she'll get spoilt rotten just like my lil byb-ers have! Wish I got a surprise like that for my birthday.
> 
> Pics as she grows........please!





Ceearott said:


> I thought you were sitting on your hands Jules!!!:confused1:


he posted with her nose


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## LolaBoo (May 31, 2011)

harley bear said:


> he posted with her nose


Ive had a bloody sex change now lol


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

harley bear said:


> he posted with her nose





julesmcc said:


> Ive had a bloody sex change now lol


Yes - as long as Mrs Bear is a member on here I am never leaving - her typos provide me with endless entertainment - I thought I was bad, PMSL!!!!!


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## LolaBoo (May 31, 2011)

Ceearott said:


> Yes - as long as Mrs Bear is a member on here I am never leaving - her typos provide me with endless entertainment - I thought I was bad, PMSL!!!!!


lmao well its starting to rub of on me


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Thing is folk have had their say about it in this thread now. No need to keep nagging. 

There'll be other threads. :aureola:


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Just like some of us are fed up of folk supporting less than ethical breeders (and others seeing no issue with it) - leaving dogs to suffer! - Know which I would rather be..


Agree but you don't have to treat people like children. A very sweet thread has once again been turned into a debate instead of just seeing the nice side of it. The pup has already been bought so why the need? 

BTW. I will sort out a couple of posts with regard to what I was saying earlier as I know the breeders who always say it.  Doing dinner at the mo though!


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Ceearott said:


> Yes - as long as Mrs Bear is a member on here I am never leaving - her typos provide me with endless entertainment - I thought I was bad, PMSL!!!!!


All i can say is well .....:dita: an of course i have no idea what typios uou mean


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Malmum said:


> Agree but you don't have to treat people like children. A very sweet thread has once again been turned into a debate instead of just seeing the nice side of it. The pup has already been bought so why the need?
> 
> BTW. I will sort out a couple of posts with regard to what I was saying earlier as I know the breeders who always say it.  Doing dinner at the mo though!


I wont ever see the 'nice' side of irresponsible breeding, as there is no nice side. - I have said a number of times this pup sure has landed on its feet, doesnt mean its acceptable..

This debate would have died down ages ago, if the folk didnt keep coming back stating that some are out of order.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

julesmcc said:


> Ive had a bloody sex change now lol


Only just got what you mean!  :mad2:wake up :mad2:wake up


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Plus there is a at least of couple of pages worth of completely and utterly 'off-topic' posts - nowt t do wiv me of course!! Singing:

I finks it was that Blimming Starfish that started it all......... :hand:


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## bbear690 (Nov 23, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> You are right you do not need to justify yourself..  Puppy looks lovely.. Puppy has a great home.. Jeepers.. I know all about rescues etc.. But its happened and the puppy is in quite capable and loving hands..


Thanks, how am i not buying the puppy going to stop all the bib/farmers in the country, we where looking for a lab x and all i knew about was puppy farms, which this def wasn't one, they where indoor and all loved and looked after, the lady was sad to see the puppy go. Not all byb are in it to make money, some do it out of just wanting there dog to have puppies or there is an accidental breeding, As for putting her in a box, she slept in in all the way home in the car so it was familiar to her before we put the lid one


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2011)

i weren`t going to comment again , tho i think things on this thread have gone too far , i`m all for stamping out of BYB , puppy farmers , but seriously the op didn`t ask for our opinions or advice , i`m sure many of us have given homes to puppy`s less than perfect , or , purchased from breeders that weren`t perfect [i know i have , not in recent years but i have done!] things like this have been going on since the beginning of time , well , puppies being bred in not so perfect conditions , breeders that aren`t perfect. we have all at some point been there , and those that say they haven`t i`d call them liars to their faces. yea okay the pup has landed on her feet , most of you worry about what has happened to the rest of her litter , worry about her dam being bred again lalalala and all that. i agree they are big worries , but no need to ostracize the op for doing so , i`m sure if they needed our advice they would have asked for it , i`m pretty certain had they been worried about anything at all regarding this pup , had any concerns about the breeder , they would have walked away and looked somewhere else. coz lets face it , it ain`t hard to come by puppies takes about a second to get some results isn`t that what should be concerning folks more , i`d gladly help petition to get some of these free ad sites taken down off the net , isn`t that something more worthwhile than blowing hot air on here aimed at this poor person who perhaps very naively brought this puppy ? if some of these sites were targeted , these sellers / breeders call them whatever you wish , would have nowhere to advertise their puppies hence having to cut into whatever `profit` they make to advertise elsewhere! if they had to do that , or were forced to , maybe there wouldn`t be so many byb / puppy farmers around as it would mean they`d have nowhere to advertise , it`s all been made too easy for them with modern technology , time to make it harder!


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

bbear690 said:


> Thanks, how am i not buying the puppy going to stop all the bib/farmers in the country, we where looking for a lab x and all i knew about was puppy farms, which this def wasn't one, they where indoor and all loved and looked after, the lady was sad to see the puppy go. Not all byb are in it to make money, some do it out of just wanting there dog to have puppies or there is an accidental breeding, As for putting her in a box, she slept in in all the way home in the car so it was familiar to her before we put the lid one


Hun, you brought a pup with the best of intentions..its gone to a fantastic home..you have learnt that maybe it wasnt the best of places to buy one from..put it behind you as a lesson learnt and move on..you do not and should not have to sit and listen to pages upon pages of ridicule! You made a mistake wtf hasnt?


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

bbear690 said:


> Thanks, how am i not buying the puppy going to stop all the bib/farmers in the country, we where looking for a lab x and all i knew about was puppy farms, which this def wasn't one, they where indoor and all loved and looked after, the lady was sad to see the puppy go. Not all byb are in it to make money, some do it out of just wanting there dog to have puppies or there is an accidental breeding, As for putting her in a box, she slept in in all the way home in the car so it was familiar to her before we put the lid one


I have nothing against what you have done..  I have started another thread.. I don't think your thread needs to be tainted.. 
I think you have done a lovely deed.. You know what your P.I.L wanted


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## LolaBoo (May 31, 2011)

Yeh lets blame starfish


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## LolaBoo (May 31, 2011)

Ok now i know im not male coz i really can t pee standing up


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

diablo said:


> i weren`t going to comment again , tho i think things on this thread have gone too far , i`m all for stamping out of BYB , puppy farmers , but seriously the op didn`t ask for our opinions or advice , i`m sure many of us have given homes to puppy`s less than perfect , or , purchased from breeders that weren`t perfect [i know i have , not in recent years but i have done!] things like this have been going on since the beginning of time , well , puppies being bred in not so perfect conditions , breeders that aren`t perfect. we have all at some point been there , and those that say they haven`t i`d call them liars to their faces. yea okay the pup has landed on her feet , most of you worry about what has happened to the rest of her litter , worry about her dam being bred again lalalala and all that. i agree they are big worries , but no need to ostracize the op for doing so , i`m sure if they needed our advice they would have asked for it , i`m pretty certain had they been worried about anything at all regarding this pup , had any concerns about the breeder , they would have walked away and looked somewhere else. coz lets face it , it ain`t hard to come by puppies takes about a second to get some results isn`t that what should be concerning folks more , i`d gladly help petition to get some of these free ad sites taken down off the net , isn`t that something more worthwhile than blowing hot air on here aimed at this poor person who perhaps very naively brought this puppy ? if some of these sites were targeted , these sellers / breeders call them whatever you wish , would have nowhere to advertise their puppies hence having to cut into whatever `profit` they make to advertise elsewhere! if they had to do that , or were forced to , maybe there wouldn`t be so many byb / puppy farmers around as it would mean they`d have nowhere to advertise , it`s all been made too easy for them with modern technology , time to make it harder!


Well said!!

And you know what?? I like to think I am one of the decent breeders, but we dont get it right all the time, we've made mistakes (not knowingly,decisions we made with the best of intentions at the time, but still) and paid for it, dearly sometimes, and no doubt we will make more mistakes in teh future - none of us is infallable and human error can never be erased.

Perhaps some people - and I aint pointing the finger at anyone on here either - I mix in the show world - bitchy as hell - ought to get down from their self-proclaimed pedestals and actually ACT on their words , rather than merely shout from the extremely high pedestals they put themselves on!!


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## Manoy Moneelil (Sep 1, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> Why should a potential owner have to commit to feeding a dog only in the way that another person considers fit?


I think you are missing the irony - so I'll type slowly this time.

If the arrival is a total surprise as in they woke up that morning considering booking a two month cruise the following week but put the brochures aside to open a pup-in-a-box what planning time is available to study and make the informed choice to buy in BARF stock etc. I think the surprise "gift" of a life is wrong - regardless of it it is fed BARF, Krispy Kremes or Harrods Hampers.

Should a potential owner have to commit 12 years of care on a whim?

I think not. :nono:


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## Starfish (Jul 26, 2011)

Oh my gosh I go away for a little bit to play with my back yard pup and I'm being framed! I'm just an innocent ickle marine creature! :scared:

Awesome last few posts though in all seriousness, I think the point is finally being driven home. :cornut:


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> in some cases it's less ethical breeding for the show ring.


Why?



> Some people would like to be hobby breeders. Breeding for the perfect health and temperament, because they enjoy breeding. They enjoy the process, they get satisfaction from breeding healthy, well socialised and nurtured pups and meeting the challenge of finding them the perfect home.


That's fair enough, and I don't have a problem with that BUT they won't have the knowledge that is required if they are not involved in some sort of dog related activity (in this case showing). You cannot get that knowledge just by reading books or the internet. It takes experience. I can say, I learnt more in a year of being involved in dogs (working in my case) than I learnt as a life long dog owner. And just because someone doesn't want to step into the ring, there are still plenty of breed club events that they can get involved in where they can learn, including attending shows. For a start, how on earth do they choose a stud dog if they are not involved?


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Starfish said:


> Oh my gosh I go away for a little bit to play with my back yard pup and I'm being framed! I'm just an innocent ickle marine creature! :scared:
> 
> Awesome last few posts though in all seriousness, I think the point is finally being driven home. :cornut:


I think you missed my cheeky post......


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## LolaBoo (May 31, 2011)

I think its time for the

*WOMBLES*

The Wombles - Remember You're a Womble - YouTube

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> Why?


Because if a show breeder breeds litter after litter looking for that perfect dog, they could breed a lot of litters. If the hobby breeder does their research, breeds their healthy, good tempered bitch to a healthy, good tempered stud, so they can get a puppy for their mum, chances are they'll be successful first go and not breed any more litters. If they want to be ethical atm, they wouldn't breed at all, they'd help mum find a dog instead though.

Totally random and not at all advisable in the current climate. Atm, the only dogs that are remotely ethically bred tend to be either working dogs that are often unsuitable for homes where the owners go to work, or have a sedentary lifestyle, or pups bred by show breeders, with the odd club of cross breeds trying to breed healthy, decent pets and being slaughtered for it. I'd say the workers are the most ethical. For example you probably can't risk herding sheep with a rescue dog and you actually might *need* a dog to herd with.

Not because of the show or working breeders are ethical folk put off breeding healthy pets, I hasten to add, but because the market is flooded by those puppy farmers, factory farming dogs and people breeding scary crosses because they don't want to kill puppies with mismate.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Elles said:


> Because if a show breeder breeds litter after litter looking for that perfect dog, they could breed a lot of litters. If the hobby breeder does their research, breeds their healthy, good tempered bitch to a healthy, good tempered stud, so they can get a puppy for their mum, chances are they'll be successful first go and not breed any more litters. If they want to be ethical atm, they wouldn't breed at all, they'd help mum find a dog instead though.
> 
> Totally random and not at all advisable in the current climate. Atm, the only dogs that are remotely ethically bred tend to be either working dogs that are often unsuitable for homes where the owners go to work, or have a sedentary lifestyle, or pups bred by show breeders, with the odd club of cross breeds trying to breed healthy, decent pets and being slaughtered for it. I'd say the workers are the most ethical. For example you probably can't risk herding sheep with a rescue dog and you actually might *need* a dog to herd with.
> 
> Not because of the show or working breeders are ethical folk put off breeding healthy pets, I hasten to add, but because the market is flooded by those puppy farmers, factory farming dogs and people breeding scary crosses because they don't want to kill puppies with mismate.


Decent show breeders rarely, if at all, breed litter after litter, and if they are breeding more than one litter a year, at least in my own breed, they have long waiting lists and have no problem selling the pups to good homes. I am a show breeder, but think of ourselves as hobby breeders more than out and out show breeders, hun, its not easy to define, black and white has much grey inbetween


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

Whilst I agree with some of the byb comments , imo I think people should have taken those kind of comments and started a new thread , not ruined the OP's thread about making two much loved in-laws happy after the loss of their old dog


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## Chihuahua-Rocky (May 10, 2011)

Elles said:


> Because if a show breeder breeds litter after litter looking for that perfect dog, they could breed a lot of litters. If the hobby breeder does their research, breeds their healthy, good tempered bitch to a healthy, good tempered stud, so they can get a puppy for their mum, chances are they'll be successful first go and not breed any more litters. If they want to be ethical atm, they wouldn't breed at all, they'd help mum find a dog instead though.
> 
> Totally random and not at all advisable in the current climate. Atm, the only dogs that are remotely ethically bred tend to be either working dogs that are often unsuitable for homes where the owners go to work, or have a sedentary lifestyle, or pups bred by show breeders, with the odd club of cross breeds trying to breed healthy, decent pets and being slaughtered for it. I'd say the workers are the most ethical. For example you probably can't risk herding sheep with a rescue dog and you actually might *need* a dog to herd with.
> 
> Not because of the show or working breeders are ethical folk put off breeding healthy pets, I hasten to add, but because the market is flooded by those puppy farmers, factory farming dogs and people breeding scary crosses because they don't want to kill puppies with mismate.


Thats not really true. A good show breeder has rarely a litter, and if they do, then it's really difficult to get a pup from them, as other pups usually go to other show breeders or are kept. Waiting lists to get a pup from these breeders are long as well. I wanted to get a pup from such a show breeder (as I really loved their dogs), but its almost impossible! Much easier to get pups from people who "just wanted to have one litter from their bitch", or who "had a litter by accident", or whatever reasons they have! Unfortunately!!


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Chihuahua-Rocky said:


> Thats not really true. A good show *breeder has rarely a litter*, and if they do, then it's really difficult to get a pup from them, as other pups usually go to other show breeders or are kept. Waiting lists to get a pup from these breeders are long as well. I wanted to get a pup from such a show breeder (as I really loved their dogs), but its almost impossible! Much easier to get pups from people who "just wanted to have one litter from their bitch", or who "had a litter by accident", or whatever reasons they have! Unfortunately!!


I dunno - there is a rottie breeder who has approx two litters a year that I would love to buy a pup from, lovely people, very knowledgable and have a breeding program to die for, lol!! Others do too, doesnt always make them bad breeders though, like I said it aint all black and white and numbers of litters doesnt necessarily make a show breeder a bad one - whatever your interpretation of bad might be.


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## Starfish (Jul 26, 2011)

Mrs C you are a naughty minx and I will spank you young lady! :ihih:

Sacremist, firstly I'd hardly call a couple of paragraphs a long post, but then again formulating one's own opinion in the style of a short hand debate can prove difficult for some people, or those who are challenged with a keyboard, so each to their own, who am I to judge. 

Secondly, as Ceearott pointed out much earlier on, you seemed to have took part in this thread with the sheer intent of keeping the stew stirring, because your comments merely come across as either nonsensical, defamatory or a mixture of the two.. so to put my feelings across politely, jog on sweet cheeks :cornut:

Anyway I feel this is all starting to get a bit catty now, it's moving from a debate on BYB and animal ethics to one of snide irritating remarks that are of little benefit to anyone, and I fear I may end up getting myself banned or something equally negative. 

:scared: :lol:


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

closing this for checking when I get the time


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