# Dealing with a bitey dog



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

For several months now me and my fiancee have been trying to get our Jasper out of his biting. It has become very painful and nothing we try is working. We made initial progress by redirecting him to a toy but this didn't last very long. We then started leaving the room for a moment but this just made matters worse when we did come back.

Things have gotten so bad that he spends a lot of time in the kitchen and garden (door to garden is left open for him) as we just can't get this phase under control. Are there any helpful hints to help with this issue.

I know part of the problem is excercise or lack there of, but this is only a small part of the issue as even with regular excercise he likes to bite at us.


----------



## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

He is still quite young, isn't he? I wonder if you have been too quick to change tactics from the toy to leaving the room. You may be seeing something called 'extinction burst'. This is when a behaviour that used to get attention no longer works for the dog so he tries it all the harder and it seems like things are getting worse, not better. This is good, because it means that what you are doing is starting to work, but because you changed your approach when it happened, you were starting over again with his training iykwim.

Again, pick one thing and be consistent - every person, every time.

Stimulation is important too, walks but also things to occupy his brain.

I am guessing his adult teeth are in and he is past the very chewy stage?


----------



## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

How much exercise is he getting?

Lack of exercise isn’t going to help.

How old is Jasper?

PS cross posted.


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

I think by my calculation from your previous posts that Jasper must be about 9 months of age now. Did you ever get that behaviourist in you mentioned a while back when jasper was highly anxious about walking?

Young Labradors can be highly excitable and slightly thuggish if you let them so I would ensure that everything you do with his is* calm. *This means no rough play with humans *at all *(there are many games you can play that encourage calm). No excitable greetings. No rough and tumble at home. *No rough play with other dogs. *And no heavy reprimands or use of 'force' (no collar or harness grabbing or pushing him off the sofa when he won't comply etc).

At the same time me I would be looking at the amount of training you are doing (I would think daily 10 to 15 mins of various elements is about right for a Lab of 9 months) and how much regular exercise he is having - both on lead and off. Little and often is better than long runs.

At 9 months I like to give my Labs a 'job' too - teach some working retrieves or higher obedience or the early elements of agility.

As a Lab owner I wouldn't be looking at how to stop the biting so much as why he still feel the need to loose it in the first place - thus the things suggested above. Predicting when he is liable to get nippy, using a house line in the house and being consistent with calm exclusions should help with the actual behaviour as it lessens.

J


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

Yes he is 9 months old, and having read a little about your suggestion he did seem to follow the "normal stuff" so you may be on to something. I think we will just grin and bare it while we get through it this time.


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

Linda Weasel said:


> How much exercise is he getting?
> 
> Lack of exercise isn't going to help.
> 
> ...


I know before anyone tells me it isn't enough for his energy level but in the morning he gets 10 to 15 minutes of fetch. After work he gets a 30 minute walk with another 10 to 15 minutes of fetch at the end of it. On Saturdays and Sundays we take him to Sutton park for at least an hour each trip and at various points in the day we take him out back to play some fetch. He is 9 months old so still very much a young pup.


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> I think by my calculation from your previous posts that Jasper must be about 9 months of age now. Did you ever get that behaviourist in you mentioned a while back when jasper was highly anxious about walking?
> 
> Young Labradors can be highly excitable and slightly thuggish if you let them so I would ensure that everything you do with his is* calm. *This means no rough play with humans *at all *(there are many games you can play that encourage calm). No excitable greetings. No rough and tumble at home. *No rough play with other dogs. *And no heavy reprimands or use of 'force' (no collar or harness grabbing or pushing him off the sofa when he won't comply etc).
> 
> ...


Thank you for the information, it was a good read. You are right he is about 9 months old now.

We train him at various points in the day, we top 30 mins to an hour each day in training. We are struggling to train him with new things at the moment mostly because he knows sit lie stay leave it and all the basics, but we wanted to do some agility training with him (looks like a very good outlet for him) but the garden is currently a mess due to a shed being built so it isn't vary practice right now. We are looking for something else that would be fun to train him, stimulate his mind, and also not need a massive amount of room outside. I know what a working retrieve is, but could we do this in a way where he isn't necessarily getting something for me, but more grabbing something for himself, for example, grabbing a toy and bringing it to us on request. The reason I ask this is because there is nothing he can really bring for me. Unless I want to support my local paper shop and have a news paper delivered


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

How are you playing fetch? Throwing the ball and him just running for it?

You could work on throwing the ball and waiting for it to land then release him for a fetch... Very basis of a working retrieve. 

I would be very careful anyway of a 9 month old running for a ball that's on the move anyway... His body will be jerking at different angles to watch for the ball rather than use other senses to retrieve. Even with good hip scored parents, this is no guarantee and it can be what you do now that makes a difference to keeping joints healthy


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Daniel Palfrey said:


> I know what a working retrieve is, but could we do this in a way where he isn't necessarily getting something for me, but more grabbing something for himself, for example, grabbing a toy and bringing it to us on request. The reason I ask this is because there is nothing he can really bring for me. Unless I want to support my local paper shop and have a news paper delivered


I am sure you could teach him to "grab a toy and bringing it to us on request" but this is exactly the opposite of that i would be trying to train. A working retrieve teaches impulse control (what your dog lacks at the moment!) as it requires the dog to sit and wait whilst a dummy is placed or thrown. It teaches focus - by asking to the dog to listen and watch and follow what they are told. And it teaches a dog to be exact - run in a line/over a jump/through water as directed and then return to handler and release. It takes massive self control for a dog to retrieve correctly. 'Fetch' on the other hand is an adrenalin boosting game to a young Labrador that requires no impulse control whatsoever  (and at 9 months is a game that i generally keep to a minimum as it also can over strain young bodies).

You say you are struggling to teach him more because he knows the basics - perhaps look for a more advanced class?. Trust me there is a lot more your Lab can learn 



> He is 9 months old so still very much a young pup.


I do not view a 9 month old Labrador as a puppy - a lively adolescent, yes. And being slow to mature Labs can be bouncy and strong - but he should not be bitey or mouthy at this age.

J


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

Believe me I have tried throwing a toy while the Mrs keeps him in a stay or wait, he is so impatient that the Mrs ended up calling it quits, I do see the logic behind it and would like to revisit that training so I will get the Mrs on board. As for fetch it is literally throw the frisbee and he runs it down and puts real effort into a catch which he does manage most of the time, bring the ball back and wait patiently for the next throw.

Had him on a walk for two hours today and he is that tired he is living here in the living room with no biting (for now) I know in a couple hours he will start biting again. It is normally when he is exited he bites, this is normally when when he wants attention, we start giving him a fuss and the teeth come out. I'll be revisiting the retrieve though, this time I might have it at Sutton park on his big leash.


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Daniel Palfrey said:


> As for fetch it is literally throw the frisbee and he runs it down and puts real effort into a catch which he does manage most of the time,


There lies the worries with joint issues in young growing dogs....

Yes you will see how amazing it is that he has ability to catch in mid flight but its not really ideal.

Start small steps with a retrieve.. Throw a short distance and release to get.. Increase the distance over time


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

Thanks for the advise. I'll give it another shot. As for greeting people politely as you know from the previouse thread, he is doing really well with that, so there is progress in some aspects, just this one is a real sticking point. I'll keep you posted and hope to see it working out well


----------



## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

Daniel Palfrey said:


> Thanks for the advise. I'll give it another shot. As for greeting people politely as you know from the previouse thread, he is doing really well with that, so there is progress in some aspects, just this one is a real sticking point. I'll keep you posted and hope to see it working out well


Would something to chew that is really tasty help? My pup loves the filled sterlised bones you can get form the pet shop and they seem to exercise his jaw ad tire him out. Maybe a frozen kong? I know they all go through a bitey stage but it's not for long (appatently) a bit of a nightmare when you dog is going through it though


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

No he likes the cure dried bones and that it, but ones the meat has gone the bones is left alone. I might try boiling a chicken leg for him and see how he gets on


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Daniel Palfrey said:


> . I might try boiling a chicken leg for him and see how he gets on


Try a raw bone. Cooked chicken bones splinter but raw should be fine. You might have to hold the end for a while, so he gets the hang of chewing

Normal food hygiene routines apply when feeding raw, so everyone remains safe.


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

Thanks for the pointer


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

After today's discussions I decided to try a retrieve, It didn't go so well as he played fetch. What I did next was held his harness and put him into a sit and stay, I thew his favourite toy but held his harness to prevent him breaking his stay then told him to fetch as I let go. After about 5 attempts I noticed a considerably less pulling from him, buy about the 20th try he was doing so well I didn't even hold his harness and he got it. Now, I will need to build his range. I document this more for anyone who has this same issue, they may find this helpful. Jasper is a very intelligent dog and catches on pretty quick, so don't be disheartened if things take longer, just keep at it, practise makes perfect. Thanks again for the advise, and I'll keep you up to date with any progress me the Mrs and our best friend make.


----------



## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

Don’t know if this has already been suggested, but scentwork/searching really wears out dogs’ brains.

Plenty of training for this on YouTube, or just start by letting him see where you hide something (use food to start) then gradually make it harder; more things hidden in more difficult places.


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

Haha I was actually off to pets at home tomorrow to get a scented bag for this purpose, a more elaborate retrieve in my opinion and I know our Jasper loves using his nose to find treats me and the Mrs hide. It is somewhat a party trick of his


----------



## niamh123 (Nov 4, 2018)

If Jasper conquered the retrieve after 20 attempts that's great news keep up the training it sounds like he catches on to training quite quickly


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

Ok, so we haven't made it out of the living room yet but we are at the point that he is retrieving near perfectly every time. He has maybe one in 30 attempts the urge gets the better of him and he runs after the retrieve dummy without been told to. We have him on a lead and prevent him getting it though so there is no reward for the attempt. I think I will try him in the garden this week and see if we can get a little distance to it. When he has that down we can try it in the parks. I might then make it even harder by actually hiding the toy so he has to use other senses to find it. That might be more fun for him.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Daniel Palfrey said:


> Ok, so we haven't made it out of the living room yet but we are at the point that he is retrieving near perfectly every time. He has maybe one in 30 attempts the urge gets the better of him and he runs after the retrieve dummy without been told to. We have him on a lead and prevent him getting it though so there is no reward for the attempt. I think I will try him in the garden this week and see if we can get a little distance to it. When he has that down we can try it in the parks. I might then make it even harder by actually hiding the toy so he has to use other senses to find it. That might be more fun for him.


That's great but personally I wouldn't be doing so many reps as that only increases his chance of failure. Keep the sessions shorter but work on better control; such as increasing the time you ask him to wait or in a different position, sending him in a different direction, etc. But … be mindful to watch your dog & be sure you are training for focus & not just increasing frustration.


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

Sorry, I worded it a bit poorly, we do a five to ten minute session not 30 reps


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

Ok so it has been a while since my last update. Jasper is doing well when retrieving, this however does not burn enough energy for him and he still gets over hyper and starts biting. So, against my better judgement I took him out to the park and spent half an hour playing fetch, then took him on a nice long walk lasting nearly an hour, then I started to do a little retrieving with him, at this point I could tell he was tired so I took him back home. When he started to get a little bit of his energy back we did some retrieval training, after a short while his energy dropped off again. So at this point I am using retrieving as a control once his energy has already been expended. Also, been the anxious dog that he is we were having issues with him barking early hours of the morning, just wanted someone with him. We have now resorted to letting him sleep upstairs with us, this has stopped his barking now, we did however have to get a corrector as he just went wild tearing up whatever he could, touch would this is now under control too.


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

30 minutes for a 9 month old labrador puppy playing fetch with no control is way too long considering he's still growing.. 

If you count on just exercise to tire him out you will just get a dog obsessed with exercise which really isn't what you want. He will be less likely to settle and more likely to display unwanted behaviours.

As a matter of urgency I really suggest that you get a behaviourist in especially if you are resorting to shock tactics to correct Jasper now.


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

I am in touch with a dog trainer at the moment, she isnt a behaviourists although she has training in the field. She has spent some time with Jasper (she identified his anxiety) and has asked that we spend more time with him burning all the excess energy for the next week so that when she comes to see him again he isn't just out of control and jumping up her. She feels the need to spend more time with him as there seems to be more than one underlining issue


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Daniel Palfrey said:


> I am in touch with a dog trainer at the moment, she isnt a behaviourists although she has training in the field. She has spent some time with Jasper (she identified his anxiety) and has asked that we spend more time with him burning all the excess energy for the next week so that when she comes to see him again he isn't just out of control and jumping up her. She feels the need to spend more time with him as there seems to be more than one underlining issue


Honestly I would change trainers.

There is a reason why dogs about Jasper's age get taken to rescue because this is when they become over exuberant teenagers. It's a normal stage of development.

I really believe you need a good behaviourist on this rather than a trainer.


----------



## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

Daniel Palfrey said:


> I am in touch with a dog trainer at the moment, she isnt a behaviourists although she has training in the field. She has spent some time with Jasper (she identified his anxiety) and has asked that we spend more time with him burning all the excess energy for the next week so that when she comes to see him again he isn't just out of control and jumping up her. She feels the need to spend more time with him as there seems to be more than one underlining issue


Is she a member of any organisations?

Tiring a dog out physically isn't going to help - you're going to have an extremely fit dog, without the ability to settle.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Daniel Palfrey said:


> I am in touch with a dog trainer at the moment, she isnt a behaviourists although she has training in the field. She has spent some time with Jasper (she identified his anxiety) and has asked that we spend more time with him burning all the excess energy for the next week so that when she comes to see him again he isn't just out of control and jumping up her. She feels the need to spend more time with him as there seems to be more than one underlining issue


Honestly 'burning off energy' isn't a good idea. Whilst he should be getting enough physical exercise & the ability to play, etc simply tiring him out isn't the answer. All you will do is create a fitter dog who still can't deal with over arousal.


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

My main issue is I can't afford a behaviourists, I mean the cheapest one so far has been over 300 pound. That's why I am working with the trainer


----------



## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

Daniel Palfrey said:


> My main issue is I can't afford a behaviourists, I mean the cheapest one so far has been over 300 pound. That's why I am working with the trainer


Does the trainer belong to any organisations? Anyone can set themselves up to be a dog trainer - it isn't a regulated industry sadly, therefore you do get awful trainers than do more harm than good because they haven't got a clue, ultimately it's the dogs and owners that then suffer due to the trainer's incompetence.

People on here might be able to recommend someone more suitable or a more cost effective way - I'm unsure where you are, there are good training classes that would be cheaper and hopefully helpful which members could recommend, Dogs Trust training classes are often a good starting point. Is he insured? Some policies cover behaviourist costs.


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

No he is not insured as of yet. I am working with pawfect dog sense, they came recommended so, honestly I didn't do any checks other than the methods they use to train. I am open to recommendations, I can honestly say I have never met a dog like him. But then he is the first dog I have ever had with anxiety issues. I know he has separation anxiety, if there are other ones I am yet to see them


----------



## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

It sounds like your dog is hyper aroused.

Increasing physical exercise will just increase arousal and give you a fitter and fitter dog who needs more and more exercise to tire themselves out.

The arousal may not be from excitement. Stress and anxiety can also increase arousal.

The following book is worth a read. It is available on kindle for 2.99 or free on kindle unlimited if you have that.

Enrichment through Scentwork for Highly Aroused Dogs (Mission Possible Solutions Book 1)
Sally Gutteridge 

In this book Sally explains that retrieval and chase games naturally increase arousal. In the wild dogs will hunt chase and capture their prey. The chase and capture part is generally quite quick but the subsequent eating phase is much longer. During this dogs are chewing and laying/sitting for comparatively long periods. The act of chewing is very calming to dogs and will allow the cortisol stress hormone built up in the chase capture phase to slowly reduce.

By engaging your dog in lots of chase capture activities and exercise in general you are constantly topping up the arousal and cortisol.

Have a look at kikopups video on YouTube called capturing calmness.

Also try the scent and food finding exercises in the above book.

Also scrutinise how you are reacting to your dogs jumping and biting. This can also exacerbate your dogs reaction.

As others have said your trainer doesn't seem to be gibing particularly helpful advice. More exercise will just lead to a more aroused dog. Teax'ching calm and relaxing behaviours and using chewing, scent work, scatter food finding and working at training for calm relaxed behaviours will help. Find a trainer who teaches using positive reinforcement.

Keep training sessions brief. I personally think 10 minutes is to long doing the same thing. Try for 3 to 5 minute sessions but mix up what you do.

When out on walks use this as an opportunity to engage in mental activities. Scatter some treats in the long grass and get your dog to sniff them out. Teach simple engagement exercises at home such as look at me and nose to hand touch and her your dog to do these when out and about.

Make sure you react and reward behaviours quietly and calmly so as not to excite your dog further.

I looked after my neighbours border Collie who.was a jumpy bitey whirling monster. Doing the above really helped calm him down.


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

To be honest a behaviourist shouldn't cost a fortune, neither should training a dog either. 

When I see prices that some training schools charge am like what.. Kids clubs and activities have cost me way more than training the dogs. 

Have you got a kc club near by? The very basics they teach might help, and usually you can get extra tips and tricks if a trainer spots something. It might really help you to have just a few sets of eyes on him. I think you are best paying for that, if you say you can't afford a behaviourist.

I really wouldn't stick with a trainer, who hypothetically train and don't look at the root cause like a behaviourist. Who states a number of issues, diagnoses anxiety and says tire him out before they will work with him. No he shouldn't be biting but some dogs do if it hasn't been nipped in the bud so to speak, he's just a typical over exuberant teenager. If a trainer can't spot this, and deal with it then am sorry they really aren't worth their money.


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

We do the look at me at home and on walks, however, you have suggested something that I hadn't thought of, he is highly motivated by food so scent work with treats may work very well with him. He loses interest in a lot of his toys since they aren't edible or scented. The scented retriever dummy he does love, it can however be a bit of a challenge getting him to let go sometimes. I generally mix his training with well established commands and a new one to keep him interested, when I have a "fail" I do take a step back and start from the last known point of compliance, I do not believe in physical correction, however, I do believe sometimes you do need to correct, hence the previouse post about the corrector, this just makes a sound and snaps him out of the unwanted behaviour. I will take a look at the book you mentioned, seems like the kind of thing he will really stick with and enjoy.


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

lullabydream said:


> To be honest a behaviourist shouldn't cost a fortune, neither should training a dog either.
> 
> When I see prices that some training schools charge am like what.. Kids clubs and activities have cost me way more than training the dogs.
> 
> ...


I will have a look and see if I have a kennel club next to me, I really appreciate your input, I know you have responded here multiple time and in my earlier post


----------



## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

Practicing this at home and eventually when out and out,about will also help.


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Dogs Trust have training classes at reasonable rates and will do 1-2-1.

Over exercising him will just give you a fitter dog that needs more exercise and possibly joint issues later in life.

Stop using the Corrector as that doesn’t solve the problem long term and could add to his anxieties and imo is cruel.

He needs to learn to settle and be managed so he can’t go crazy and destroy things.

Kikopup, positively.com and thecanineconsultants.co.uk are good sites for insight into the dog psyche and positive training methods.


----------



## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

The corrector just addresses the symptom, not the cause - and that's why they appear to work in the short term but the problem will either come back, or manifest with a new symptom, or cause the dog further anxiety which he can't express - leading to even bigger problems.


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

Dogs trust have classes near me. I have been in touch an I am now waiting for the schedule so I can book the class. Jasper was more into retrieving yesterday. I used a ball stuffed with treats to keep him interested. We were literally walking for a while then did a retrieve, then walk for a bit more and do a retrieve. All in, there was about 5 retrieves involved in the walk and he came back in a calm mood.


----------



## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

Daniel Palfrey said:


> Dogs trust have classes near me. I have been in touch an I am now waiting for the schedule so I can book the class. Jasper was more into retrieving yesterday. I used a ball stuffed with treats to keep him interested. We were literally walking for a while then did a retrieve, then walk for a bit more and do a retrieve. All in, there was about 5 retrieves involved in the walk and he came back in a calm mood.


Thats good news. Thanks for the update.


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

I will let you know when we are booked in (still waiting for a response) and I'll let you know of any progress throughout. Just took him for a quick jog, no more than five mins, he started to get bitey due to over excitement so I had to tire him out a little. We use the correction spray as a last resort. Mostly at bed times to be honest. We limit its use as I like most here disagree with correctional teaching of dogs bit I also agree that sometimes a for now fix is better than none. Any how, without kicking up a stink, I am looking forward to the classes and hope it helps with Jasper.


----------



## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

I think you have just got some really good evidence that doing exciting activities leads to your dog being wound up and bouncy and doing calm activities or limited exciting activities with lots of calm in between leads to a calm dog.

Do you use kongs at all? A stuffed Kong or other long lasting chew will help with the calming. Dogs can have the zoomies especially in the evening so redirecting that before it starts with a chewing activity somewhere calm and quiet can help.

The pet corrector may be apparently stopping unwanted behaviour but it adds to the dogs stress and doesn't indicate what alternative behaviour you want so in the long term it wont help.

You want to be teaching a behaviour that you do want that is incompatible with the unwanted behaviour rather than just telling the dog that you dont want a particular behaviour.

Scent games, chewing activities and mental activities like food puzzles can all lower excitement andmake the dog use their brain which is more tiring than physical activity.

I suggest you keep a dairy of activities you do with your dog and their subsequent behaviour so you can begin to spot which activities are calming and which are arousing.


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Daniel Palfrey said:


> I will let you know when we are booked in (still waiting for a response) and I'll let you know of any progress throughout. Just took him for a quick jog, no more than five mins, he started to get bitey due to over excitement so I had to tire him out a little. We use the correction spray as a last resort. Mostly at bed times to be honest. We limit its use as I like most here disagree with correctional teaching of dogs bit I also agree that sometimes a for now fix is better than none. Any how, without kicking up a stink, I am looking forward to the classes and hope it helps with Jasper.


Am sorry but he's just being a normal dog.. Who if has anxiety is a big no no with something like correctional loud noise. It might stop the behaviour but he also might fear loud bangs in the outside world, be terrible at times of fireworks etc.

Please don't jog with him either he's 9 months old labrador and from your posts probably hasn't come from a breeder who has tried to put the odds in his favour for his joints... Labradors are a known breed to have hip and elbow problems. The damage is thought to be caused by both bad breeding and formative years. 5 minutes is way too long.

You have been given good advice here but seem to be missing the point that no decent training that's worth it's weight works quickly, or is an easy ride. You can't just tire a dog out to stop unwanted behaviour, a dog needs to learn alternative behaviour that is acceptable, or fun stops when things get over exuberant. A teenage dog will push boundaries and test people's patience. It's normal


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

I agree with you on the cleaner activities lead to a calmer dog but in the begging they were not working, they seem to do the job now though. As for correcting, I only do that on the night, both me and the Mrs work, so a peaceful night's sleep is a must, Bence using the corrector, only on the night, I really do believe on raising a dog positively but I know as a lot of you might, there are times where a short term bandaad are better then nothing. I do agree with you on the calmer activities though. Tonight he is doing a lot of biting and jumping and despite my efforts and the mrs' are in vein at the moment. I have just opened the stair gate to let him get comfortable upstairs before we go to be. I am hoping he calms down a bit knowing it is nearly bed time.


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

lullabydream said:


> Am sorry but he's just being a normal dog.. Who if has anxiety is a big no no with something like correctional loud noise. It might stop the behaviour but he also might fear loud bangs in the outside world, be terrible at times of fireworks etc.
> 
> Please don't jog with him either he's 9 months old labrador and from your posts probably hasn't come from a breeder who has tried to put the odds in his favour for his joints... Labradors are a known breed to have hip and elbow problems. The damage is thought to be caused by both bad breeding and formative years. 5 minutes is way too long.
> 
> You have been given good advice here but seem to be missing the point that no decent training that's worth it's weight works quickly, or is an easy ride. You can't just tire a dog out to stop unwanted behaviour, a dog needs to learn alternative behaviour that is acceptable, or fun stops when things get over exuberant. A teenage dog will push boundaries and test people's patience. It's normal


He is definitely pushing my patience lol. Trust me, I weight 16 stone and he has pushed me to joging, that isn't an easy task. I have taken in the advise and have used much of it, but when a dog doesn't respond I feel the need to try something else, the short jogging session has now left him biting on his bone happy as Larry, I know to limit the excersise, but I give him what he can take and that is it, I would sooner carry him home than make him do more than he can. As for long toys, we have the giant Kong toy that you stuff with treats and the Kong ball too


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

It's incredibly normal for dogs to have a "witching" hour around bed time. I have an 11 year old dog who to this day gets silly and playful right at bedtime. I give him a chew or a toy, read my book, do some yoga, and he's ready for bed in about 20 to 30 minutes. 
Anyone raising a puppy is familiar with puppy demon hour. Give him something constructive to do in a safe area, pop him in his crate with a kong, or a puzzle toy and you'll find him 20 minutes later asleep. Taking him for a run will just teach him to amp up instead of calm down. 

Ditch the pet corrector. You have an anxious pup who's default behavior is to escalate. The pet corrector is not teaching him anything other than to startle and possibly fear loud, surprising stimuli. That's the last thing you want from a family dog.


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

If you’re having to use the corrector every night then it’s clearly not working.

I don’t understand your insistence that it’s ok to use a corrector spray as a short term fix when everyone has recommended that you don’t.


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

I stepped away for the week to work with Jasper, I apologise for those I offended with the use of the correctional spray, I have followed the advise I have been given here and stopped using it. I have managed to get better behaviour out of him slowly as the week has gone on. He is actually living next to me relaxing at the moment. My main take away in terms of activities is the a combination of walking and scent games are really calming for him. On days where he doesn't fancy a walk (this doesn't happen very often) I hide his retrieval dummy in the house and he sniffs it out and brings it back to me. I do this a few times and he just plonks down and relaxes. For the most part the biting is still an issue, but I have noticed an improvement. Again, I apologise to you all and thank you for the sound advise you have given me. A combination of two separate bits of advise have worked to get him behaving better and have started to reduce the bitting. Redirecting has been a little more complex as when he does get amped up he is hard to control, but I have literally taken to keeping treats in my pocket and use the treat to lure him away and then put him into the sit to earn the treat. This method has worked and to an extent I can now get him to sit without the lure, though sometimes I do still need it.


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

Ok, I have another update now. Jasper had calmed down with his biting towards me, I have been rewarding the calm and settled behaviour which has worked, if he does decide to bite me I ask him to stop and he does. The Mrs on the other hand still seems to fall prey to his biting tendencies and she is trying all the same methods that have now worked for me. Not really sure how to advise her other than to just keep trying with him


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

Ok, the Mrs had a break through yesterday, after what seemed like hours of redirecting bites for her ended with him putting his teeth on her then moving away, this then turned into licking. It's not perfect yet but this is how it went for me, biting to bad biting to touching with teeth to only licking, he still tried a play bite with her from time to time but she can usually ask him to stop and he usually does, she just needs to enforce this training a little bit more and she should be at the same stage I am, ultimately we just want his teeth never to touch us, but progress is still progress


----------



## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

Daniel Palfrey said:


> Ok, the Mrs had a break through yesterday, after what seemed like hours of redirecting bites for her ended with him putting his teeth on her then moving away, this then turned into licking. It's not perfect yet but this is how it went for me, biting to bad biting to touching with teeth to only licking, he still tried a play bite with her from time to time but she can usually ask him to stop and he usually does, she just needs to enforce this training a little bit more and she should be at the same stage I am, ultimately we just want his teeth never to touch us, but progress is still progress


Good news, you are getting there. He will calm down eventually with you being consistent (we have gone throught this too).


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

It did start getting to me dealing with the biting and the anxiety at the same time, mostly because a couple of my neighbours started to moan about his barking, our choice was to let him sleep in our room which has dramatically reduced his barking, he never barks over night or in the morning now and we asked our one neighbor who claims he only lets off an occasional bark while we aren't there now, so that's helped, and everyone here who kicked me. Back onto the right path helped and he is once again, my best friend and been really good. It's hard to believe that a few weeks ago I was so mad and looking for solutions that just masked the problem for him to now be so good and loving again.


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

I suppose the only thing I can say at this point to anyone going through this themselves is have a read of this thread, I was the same but everyone here has offered some very good information and over time, it does work. We are coming up on three weeks to a month now and Jasper is very intelligent, so sometimes it may take longer. What worked for me was a combination of retrieval games and scent work. I have a scented retrieval dummy that I hide around the house on a regular basis and when he gets bored he actually goes and finds it then we play some retrieval games before I hide it again, it may just be that anyone having this issue needs to teach there pup something new and something that encourages there dog to use there gifted sciences such as finding things for retrievers and labradors, endurance games for collies. That's all I can think of right now but you get the idea  thanks again to everyone who has helped


----------



## Natasha Cullerton king (Nov 11, 2018)

I have a 1 year old shihtzu and he is still very much in his biting phase. We have tried everything we have been told, we tried putting a toy in his mouth, bought him a king with treats but he gets bored of that, tried making noises when he bites to stop him, we have tried the cage. I could go on forever with all the things we have tried, he is very stubborn and nothing works. He isn't phased by any of it. I just don't know what else to do, it really hurts when he bites and it's even got to the point where I have actual bruising from his bites. He even tried it with the window cleaner and my friends 7 year old son (my friend did say he might of been playing) I don't think he is playing though, as he seems to get a bit aggressive. Someone told me to try a soft muzzle as this might work, so when he bites I just put the muzzle on him. I have ordered one and it's coming next week, but to be honest I don't have any faith that it will work and I just don't know what else I can do. Getting a trainer will be the Very last resort as its not cheap. Does anyone have any ideas or thoughts that could help me? I would very much appreciate it.


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

In the past the Mrs had a little dog, not sure on the breed, bit she found out he had some form of anxiety that pretty much caused him to bite and chew everything in site. She got him a thunder 
Shirt and that helped with his anxiety and in turn his biting and chewing reduced. It may be worth talking to someone about your dog, a vet maybe, to see if there is a possibility that it has anxiety


----------



## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

@Natasha Cullerton king there are a few things in your post I'd like to pick up. One is that you say you have tried several different things and none seem to work. You may have thought that but actually seeing something called 'extinction burst'. This is when a behaviour that used to get attention no longer works for the dog so he tries it all the harder and it seems like things are getting worse, not better. This is good, because it means that what you are doing is in fact starting to work.

So, pick one thing and stick with it. Some people find a sharp 'ouch' works but it can just ramp up the excitement. Some people find putting a toy in the dog's mouth works, others find the puppy is still more interested in nipping hands. My preferred method is to teach him that teeth on skin equals end of fun. So as soon as he makes contact, walk out of the room for a few moments. As long as the whole family is consistent - do it immediately and do it every time - he will learn. You could use a house line to draw him away, which keeps your hands both out of reach and also keeps hands for only good things.

The muzzle may not be a bad idea, especially as he is doing this to other people. However - you can't put the muzzle on 'when he bites' - that's too late to stop the bite and it's using the muzzle as a punishment which he likely won't understand. If you want to use a muzzle, you can't just put it on, you need to train your dog to accept it. That is going to take time, there are videos on YouTube that will help. You also said it's a soft muzzle - do you mean a fabric one? If so, please send it right back and get an open, basket type. Soft muzzles are for very brief usage like vet visits, not for wearing for longer periods (which is what you will need). They restrict panting and on a dog like a Shih Tzu could be very harmful.

You said getting a trainer is a last resort - please reconsider that. If your dog bites someone or even makes someone fear that he might, he could be destroyed.

And also, I don't want to leave this without considering he might not in fact be playing. It is still likely that at a year he sees this as a part of play but it is possible too that he is acting out of fear/anxiety. Dogs give a series of signals that they are unhappy, but unfortunately most people don't recognise them because they can be quite subtle. To begin with there is often wide eyes, lip licking and yawning. There is also muscular tension in the body. Then the ones we sometimes do see - growl, snarl, nip then bite. If the early signals are not seen (or, in the dog's view, ignored) he won't bother with them because us stupid humans pay no attention anyway; so he may go straight to the bite. So it's important never to ignore the early signals. As a friend says, she would rather be told verbally to sod off than be smacked in the face with no apparent warning. If your dog has previously given warnings that have not been heeded maybe he is escalating. If thats the case, you probably do need some professional help (especially as he has nipped a child). Your insurance might cover it.


----------



## Natasha Cullerton king (Nov 11, 2018)

JoanneF said:


> @Natasha Cullerton king there are a few things in your post I'd like to pick up. One is that you say you have tried several different things and none seem to work. You may have thought that but actually seeing something called 'extinction burst'. This is when a behaviour that used to get attention no longer works for the dog so he tries it all the harder and it seems like things are getting worse, not better. This is good, because it means that what you are doing is in fact starting to work.
> 
> So, pick one thing and stick with it. Some people find a sharp 'ouch' works but it can just ramp up the excitement. Some people find putting a toy in the dog's mouth works, others find the puppy is still more interested in nipping hands. My preferred method is to teach him that teeth on skin equals end of fun. So as soon as he makes contact, walk out of the room for a few moments. As long as the whole family is consistent - do it immediately and do it every time - he will learn. You could use a house line to draw him away, which keeps your hands both out of reach and also keeps hands for only good things.
> 
> ...


Thankyou so much for your advice. I will definitely speak to his vets about it and see what they say. I think he does get separation anxiety as he doesn't like it when we leave, he starts trying to but us. I just don't know how to help his anxiety, so maybe the vet will know. Thankyou.


----------



## Natasha Cullerton king (Nov 11, 2018)

Daniel Palfrey said:


> In the past the Mrs had a little dog, not sure on the breed, bit she found out he had some form of anxiety that pretty much caused him to bite and chew everything in site. She got him a thunder
> Shirt and that helped with his anxiety and in turn his biting and chewing reduced. It may be worth talking to someone about your dog, a vet maybe, to see if there is a possibility that it has anxiety


Thankyou I'll speak to the vet to see what they say, and if there's anything that can help, thanks


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

If it is anxiety then a thunder shirt can help with that, though I would look at a long term solution as well as helping with the symptoms through the use of thundershirts or chemical difusers


----------



## Natasha Cullerton king (Nov 11, 2018)

Daniel Palfrey said:


> If it is anxiety then a thunder shirt can help with that, though I would look at a long term solution as well as helping with the symptoms through the use of thundershirts or chemical difusers


Thankyou! I will look into it


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

Let us know how you get on


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

Ok, in terms of biting Jasper is doing a lot better with me, with the Mrs he has actually gotten worse, I have noticed she isn't been very consistent and have spoken to here about it but she feels she is been consistent. With the training classes due to start next week I am hoping they enforce the importance of been consistent and notice the errors in the mrs' consistency. Such as sometime she stops him biting instantly (which is good though I was stopping the behaviour before he had a chance to practise it) other times he can be biting for 5 seconds plus before she stops the behaviour, which is bad. Then the rewarding, sometime an instant reward other times he has to wait for it (this one isn't a massive issue untill she just doesn't reward him). I had issues to begin with but with the info here and me perservering with the training he did get a lot better though not perfect. More updates to come as this training progresses.


----------



## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Would it help Mrs P if you pointed out that Jasper isn't biting you BECAUSE of your consistency, so can she see how much better it would be for her if she puts in the hard work now?


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

I went down that root early on. She is very stubborn lol


----------



## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

Daniel Palfrey said:


> I went down that root early on. She is very stubborn lol


Maybe the training course will help your mrs, I had the same problem with my mr, because I was the one taking him (the dog) to training classes! The trainer suggested that my OH came along for a couple of sessions so he could be involved too - it helped to solve the problem (mostly) .


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

Fingers crossed, I have told her she has to come and she agreed lol so I am hoping


----------



## Woah (Dec 24, 2018)

I have a young Labrador with a high energy level. At nine months I started jogging with him (only a mile to start, with frequent rest stops) with him off lead over fields. He loved it. The fact is his pace (that is the speed he prefers to travel at) is way faster than slow old human walking pace so doing this meant we could get further quicker and satisfied him more. As for joints I would argue that jogging off lead meant that he covered less ground in total than if I was walking as he would typically run ahead of me and then Keep running back to me. I also take him swimming in the lake and river throwing a dummy for him to retrieve. he does agility too and has done so from six months. Starting with a young dog simply means tiny jumps and tunnels really obviously no high obstacles. Wearing out the mind is just as good as the body. If I haven’t played/exercised him enough he becomes a little more mouthy - which means (at least in my dog’s language) pls play with me!! Good luck


----------



## Woah (Dec 24, 2018)

By the way a good way to start with a wait retrieve is to train the ‘wait’ element separately first. Teach him the meaning of it. Try putting a treat down a little away from him but near enough to you that you can prevent him getting it if he breaks from position. Start off asking him to sit and wait for a few secs only. If he gets up or creeps forward cover the treat and say ‘ah’ or ‘no’ or whatever word you want him to associate with ‘that’s not right’ . When he’s successful give him a release command (such as “okay” ) and invite him to come eat the treat. Build up time in the wait to teach him self control. When he’s got a good grasp on it you can start to introduce it into the retrieve. Have something to lightly hold onto at first to prevent him breaking from his wait position (handle of a harness for example). Agility teaches a wait as one of the first obedience commands as the dog has to have this in place at every start line. Good luck.


----------



## CheddarS (Dec 13, 2011)

Woah said:


> I have a young Labrador with a high energy level. At nine months I started jogging with him (only a mile to start, with frequent rest stops) with him off lead over fields. He loved it. The fact is his pace (that is the speed he prefers to travel at) is way faster than slow old human walking pace so doing this meant we could get further quicker and satisfied him more. As for joints I would argue that jogging off lead meant that he covered less ground in total than if I was walking as he would typically run ahead of me and then Keep running back to me. I also take him swimming in the lake and river throwing a dummy for him to retrieve. he does agility too and has done so from six months. Starting with a young dog simply means tiny jumps and tunnels really obviously no high obstacles. Wearing out the mind is just as good as the body. If I haven't played/exercised him enough he becomes a little more mouthy - which means (at least in my dog's language) pls play with me!! Good luck


They should be doing no jumps at 6 months old...foundation work is fine but this does not include jumping or most equipment. What a dog can do versus what they should do are two different things.


----------



## Woah (Dec 24, 2018)

A tiny jump a few inches off the floor barely counts for a large Labrador whose natural canter stride is as big. Honestly with that kind of cotton wool pandering dogs would not be playing, running , bouncing about all the other normal puppy stuff that goes on.


----------



## CheddarS (Dec 13, 2011)

Woah said:


> A tiny jump a few inches off the floor barely counts for a large Labrador whose natural canter stride is as big. Honestly with that kind of cotton wool pandering dogs would not be playing, running , bouncing about all the other normal puppy stuff that goes on.


And yes Labradors have lots of joint issues. I do agility with an older large breed dog and all the labradors have retired due to joint issues. It is not a question of what they can jump (and I have deer fencing for mine) it is what we repetitively force them to do. Slow and steady lots of foundation work and you will hopefully have a cracking agility/sporting dog.


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

Hi everyone. It's been a long while and a lot of work. Jasper is now doing great, his training sessions are going well, he doesn't bite me anymore, though, he does mouth at me but he now knows what I will accept and I like that. The Mrs has also pretty much gotten to the same point as me. Now, for future reference, the thing that really helped was scent work and retrieval training, I do still play fetch with him, and he loves it, but I do this before the scent work and retrieval work. He is now a great dog, my best friend and my mrs' best friend, he is just awsome


----------



## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

Daniel Palfrey said:


> Hi everyone. It's been a long while and a lot of work. Jasper is now doing great, his training sessions are going well, he doesn't bite me anymore, though, he does mouth at me but he now knows what I will accept and I like that. The Mrs has also pretty much gotten to the same point as me. Now, for future reference, the thing that really helped was scent work and retrieval training, I do still play fetch with him, and he loves it, but I do this before the scent work and retrieval work. He is now a great dog, my best friend and my mrs' best friend, he is just awsome


Good news, glad your Mrs is not suffering so much and training sessions are going well, sounds like he's settling down a bit now, keep up the good work and don't forget the pics with any awards he wins!


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

He passed his class and held his award with pride.


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

Please excuse the Mrs been in the photo, she just went mad at me lmao. As you can see in the photo, he quite happily stays and sits and waits there looking so good lol


----------



## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

Daniel Palfrey said:


> He passed his class and held his award with pride.
> View attachment 423912


I was wondering how you were getting on. What a good boy! You must both be so proud of Jasper. Congratulations on completing the training sessions, will you be carrying on to the next level?


----------



## Daniel Palfrey (May 8, 2019)

We are very proud of him, the main reason for these lessons was his anxiety and biting, the biting is mostly under control now and only happens when he is anxious. The team at the dogs trust are still helping with the anxiety, once this is sorted we may find somewhere that he can do something like duck diving later on down the line. We are also thinking of a little agility training ( without the jumps as he is so clumsy) but we haven't made our mind up yet


----------

