# Clarifiction on Showing Neutered Dogs



## BessieDog

Just thought you might be interested in the clarification from the KC when I queried why, whether, as they encourage neutered dogs to be shown, they were going to alter the breed standard so it no longer reflects the need for two descended testicles.

Their answer was that the breed standard states two descended testicles, and if the dog does not have these, then it would be classed as a 'fault' or deviation from the standard. The dog could still win if it was the best dog overall, but if you have another which matches the standard just as well, the entire dog would be placed first.

A neutered dog, therefore, enters the competition with one fault already. 

Many neutered dogs do beat the competition, but it's obviously down to the judge as to how much weight he places on that fault.

I just thought it was interesting as neutered dogs do not, as far as the KC are concerned, have a level playing field.


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## smokeybear

But when you think about it the whole purpose of breed showing is (or was) to provide a shop window for the best breeding stock.


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## Wiz201

I showed Bonnie as a neutered bitch, made no difference to her appearence so I don't see it as a fault. Now a dog will obviously have no testicles so I can see where the fault is but other than that, they're still the same dog.


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## Rafa

The reason for a dog being required to have 'Two testicles fully descended into the scrotum', was originally because Monorchidism or Cryptorchidism, can be hereditary, so was seen as a fairly serious fault in a male.


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## smokeybear

Wiz201 said:


> I showed Bonnie as a neutered bitch, made no difference to her appearence so I don't see it as a fault. Now a dog will obviously have no testicles so I can see where the fault is but other than that, they're still the same dog.


I showed both my neutered bitches too and have won at Crufts.

Also neutering can and does change the coat in many dogs.

But again the purpose of exhibiting dogs is to provide a shop window for breeders and consumers and, unlike FCI and other bodies, there are no "disqualifying" faults in the show ring.

So it depends on the weight that judges put on the lack of testicles AS WELL AS the quality (or lack of) the other exhibits in the ring (with males).


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## smokeybear

WeedySeaDragon said:


> But surely then showcasing the offspring of breeding stock, even if that offspring isn't going to bred itself, is just as valuable as showcasing the actual breeding stock itself.
> 
> To be honest I think the KC should either ban neutered dogs completely or have separate classes. It's completely pointless going through the faff of getting permission to show when there are judges who won't even look at a dog without testicles, never mind actually weigh it up against the competition.


Yep, but if their progeny in the ring have no testicles nobody will know if the breeding produces crypt or monorchids would they?


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## BessieDog

I've asked the KC for further clarification. 

If the fact that a dog has no testicles is taken as a fault, in a mixed class a spayed bitch might win as overall, she deviates less from the standard, and there is no way the judge could tell she was not entire. 

Although 'Permission to show' letters have to be put on the steward's table, the judge shouldn't see these until after the class - otherwise he'd know the dogs names he was judging. And I fail to see how, having awarded the places, the judge could say 'hold on a minute, that bitch has been spayed I'll have to take first place away!' 

So, as far as neutering a concerning, bitches are at an advantage. There is no equivalent statement in the breed standard for them to be measured against. 

So I've asked the KC for their comments. I'll probably have a response in another three weeks! 

What I'm aiming for is to pin the KC down so I can include a statement in my book clarifying the true position on showing neutered dogs. At the moment every person has a different view of the truth, including every exhibitor and every judge!


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## smokeybear

Does not the red book contain the actual ruling?


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## BessieDog

smokeybear said:


> Does not the red book contain the actual ruling?


No. The regs don't even mention that dogs are judged against the breed standard.

That's the problem, most things that are done have arisen from what's become custom and practice. Which is why we all need some clarity!


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## Kicksforkills

You're doing a great job Trish


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## pickle

My understanding is that nowadays it is not asking for "permission to show" so much, more notifying the KC that the dog/bitch is neutered. Permission as such is always automatically given, there does not have to be a medical reason as neutering nowadays is considered "responsible ownership". I have never heard of putting a letter down on stewards table, you were just expected to have it with you at the show. I am here to be corrected!

Personally in 30 odd years of showing I have never heard of anyone having to produce a letter of permission. Be interesting to hear different of course .


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## Rafa

pickle said:


> My understanding is that nowadays it is not asking for "permission to show" so much, more notifying the KC that the dog/bitch is neutered. Permission as such is always automatically given, there does not have to be a medical reason as neutering nowadays is considered "responsible ownership". I have never heard of putting a letter down on stewards table, you were just expected to have it with you at the show. I am here to be corrected!
> 
> Personally in 30 odd years of showing I have never heard of anyone having to produce a letter of permission. Be interesting to hear different of course .


I think what is required, (unless regulations have changed recently), is written confirmation from a Vet that the dog was not castrated due to mon or cryptorchidism.


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## smokeybear

I have had two bitches, both speyed, I informed the KC of the operations (as required) and received a letter from the KC giving permission to exhibit.

I never took these letters to shows however (never been asked and though I show very rarely, I go back to 1995)


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## BessieDog

smokeybear said:


> I have had two bitches, both speyed, I informed the KC of the operations (as required) and received a letter from the KC giving permission to exhibit.
> 
> I never took these letters to shows however (never been asked and though I show very rarely, I go back to 1995)


I was informed by a respected judge that you were supposed to put the letter on the steward's table. I will check that out.


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## smokeybear

BessieDog said:


> I was informed by a respected judge that you were supposed to put the letter on the steward's table. I will check that out.


Again there is nothing in the KC Rules and REgulations Big Red Book about this, nor does it say in the letter you need to take it.

Having been on all the KC seminars on judging and stewarding again this is not referrerd to in those.


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## BessieDog

smokeybear said:


> Again there is nothing in the KC Rules and REgulations Big Red Book about this, nor does it say in the letter you need to take it.
> 
> Having been on all the KC seminars on judging and stewarding again this is not referrerd to in those.


As I said, I'll check. So much isn't in the red book! Try finding the beaten dog rule in there!! (Eg. In that a dog only beaten by the BOB can be called back into the ring to challenge for reserve!).


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## Freyja

A few years ago I was at a breed club champ show with Owen. He was in veteran and one of the other dogs in the ring was castrated. I was standing next to it so heard the judge ask the handler if she had a letter from the vet confirming it had 2 testicles when it was neutered. The handler said yes and the judge asked her to take it to the stewards table when the class finished. I can only assume she did this as the dog won the class and Owen was 2nd.

Someone later told me the dog had not been shown until it was a veteran and then it was neutered and this was because it had not got 2 testicles and the owner would have done nothing showing him as a youngster but neutered but a veteran is less likely to knocked for it.

If they put a class on for neutered dogs and bitches it would be better rather than expecting every exhibitor to produce a letter from their vet they could just do random checks say 3/4 dogs out of the class with the judge or even the steward choosing the dogs that were to be checked.


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## Rafa

Freyja said:


> A few years ago I was at a breed club champ show with Owen. He was in veteran and one of the other dogs in the ring was castrated. I was standing next to it so heard the judge ask the handler if she had a letter from the vet confirming it had 2 testicles when it was neutered. The handler said yes and the judge asked her to take it to the stewards table when the class finished. I can only assume she did this as the dog won the class and Owen was 2nd.
> 
> Someone later told me the dog had not been shown until it was a veteran and then it was neutered and this was because it had not got 2 testicles and the owner would have done nothing showing him as a youngster but neutered but a veteran is less likely to knocked for it.
> 
> If they put a class on for neutered dogs and bitches it would be better rather than expecting every exhibitor to produce a letter from their vet they could just do random checks say 3/4 dogs out of the class with the judge or even the steward choosing the dogs that were to be checked.


I would be very surprised if any vet would confirm the dog had two testicles prior to castration if it hadn't.

Unfortunately, there can be a lot of disgruntled exhibitors at any show who will gossip about a dog who has won his class, and much of it is untrue or just speculation.


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## Spellweaver

smokeybear said:


> I have had two bitches, both speyed, I informed the KC of the operations (as required) and received a letter from the KC giving permission to exhibit.
> 
> I never took these letters to shows however (never been asked and though I show very rarely, I go back to 1995)





BessieDog said:


> I was informed by a respected judge that you were supposed to put the letter on the steward's table. I will check that out.


I have shown both a spayed bitch and a neutered male, and both have won Best of Breed many times. I had a letter for each of them from the KC giving them permission to show, and a copy of this was given to the steward each time they were shown. The judge doesn't see the letter until after the judging, but the steward does inform the judge that the dog is neutered for medical reasons and points the dog out at the beginning of class judging. This happened many times, with many different stewards and judges, at many different shows.

I was speaking about this to the breeder of our bergies, who judges briards and has judged at Crufts. She said that if she was told by the steward that they had been given a copy of a permission to show letter, then the fact that a dog was neutered wouldn't matter to her. However, if she wasn't told that there was a permission to show letter, she would regard it as a major fault.


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## BessieDog

I'm not sure where the idea that the vet has to state the dog had two normal testicles before neutering comes from? Unless I'm blind, the form simply asks for the details of the vet, and the date the operation was performed.

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/8958/neutered_dogs.pdf


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## Spellweaver

This form wasn't in existence when Gabby was spayed and Baggio was neutered. In those days neutering was classed along with every other kindof operation - ie your vet had to write to the KC to let them know that the operation was not for cosmetic reasons and that the dog had normal conformation before the operation. In Baggio's case he had testicular cancer - and the vet had to state that Baggio had two normal, descended testicles before the cancer.

I think this is maybe where it came from - we oldies who are remembering things as it used to be


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## pickle

Because I have a docked dog I have had to get "permission to show", but have never taken the letter with me. As it is obvious that the dog is docked, as a great number of HPR breeds still are, then in theory the judge may need to see those letters too. So there could be quite a number of letters for him/her to peruse!

I think that nowadays because dog showing seems to be losing it's appeal and numbers are dropping, it may be necessary to be a bit more inclusive so that neutered dogs are not penalised. The original concept of exhibiting breeding stock still holds, I agree, but surely if you are showing a sound healthy specimen, that was neutered for acceptable reasons (i.e. for non-hereditary problems) then it is still an example of the breeder's stock?


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## BessieDog

Clarification from the Kennel Club on showing spayed bitches.

_Please be advised that the Kennel Club does not have a policy which requires exhibitors to show their Permission to Show letter to the Ring Steward. Although this does sometimes occur, we do not request that Stewards police this matter. If there is any concern that a dog has had a procedure and has been shown without being granted permission to show, it should be reported to the Secretary on the day of the show. It will then be forwarded to the Kennel Club in the Post Show Report for follow up as appropriate.

As you will be aware, the judge is looking at the characteristics that are set out in the Breed Standard. If, as a result of being spayed, a particular undesirable breed fault becomes more apparent such as; excessive coat etc., then the judge would take that into account, but would be assessing the dog against the Breed Standard, and not basing it on the fact that it was spayed. _


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