# Bad breeder, puppy passed away, advice needed!



## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

Hello All,
The purpose of this post is for us to gain advice, please read it in its entirety before posting, your help will be much appreciated. The advice will help us to decide what action, if any, we can take against the breeder in question.

Today our little puppy tragically passed away, she was at the vets on a drip.

Events are as follows:
-Monday 4th November, saw advert on Pets4Homes

-Tuesday 5th November, went to view the puppy, fell in love.

-Saturday 9th November, collected the puppy.

-Saturday 9th November, we took puppy straight to the vets and the vet registered her concern about the puppy (brought age into question and stated puppy was not fit to have left home). She also gave us special dietary foods, investigated the faeces and gave the puppy a worming tablet as worms were suspected.

-Monday 11th November, we brought the puppy to see the nurse due to our concerns about persistent diarrhoea. 

-Tuesday 12th  we issued the Advocate Wormer/Flea treatment given by the vet on Saturday 9th November.

-Wednesday 13th, vet issued us with special medicine to bind the puppy. The first vaccination was also issued. 

-Friday 15th more special food was ordered, but of a different sort to before to try and encourage higher consumption.

-Sunday 17th, the first tar black diarrhoea was passed. We immediately took the puppy to the vets where she was taken in and put on a drip. She was also given a blood test, which showed iron deficiency. On a positive note at this time, she also tested negatively for Parvo. The vet said her condition was stable.

-Monday 18th November (this morning) the vet who had seen the puppy on each occasion rang to say the puppy had passed away. On arrival at the practice we politely informed the vet (a different one this time) that we would settle our balance with them without fuss if the vet who had treated our puppy throughout the week would put in writing the words of concern she had about the puppy; specifically the condition it was in on Saturday 9th November and the fact she said it had been ill-treated and should not have been taken from its mother. The vets colleague said this would not be a problem and that we should return on Wednesday 20th Nov.

-We contacted the breeder only to realise their phone seemed to have been disconnected. Not a great surprise.

How you can help?
We need help putting together a plan of action. We're realistic and know we probably cannot cause this individual to cease breeding, but if we can stop anyone else facing heart break after dealing with her, or another similar breeder, it is worth every moment of our time, efforts and money.

Our plan:
-Write to advertising site (Pets4Homes) to find the date the advert was first posted (may help us determine age of puppy and could compliment vets statement and questioning of age).

-Write to the breeders address and send a letter signed for. In the letter we will politely register our disappointment and ask for a refund as suggested by the vet (we hold no hope). We will also state that if no reply is received within 7 days we will commence other actions, perhaps as per below**

-Investigate our options with RSPCA/PDSA, suggestions on this would be appreciated. Puppies were kept in an outhouse (we did not see inside), father dog was not at the address, first vaccination had not been given, no papers/evidence of worming/fleeing (yes, all the alarm bells should have been ringing from the start, we now know.)

-Create a blog documenting the week in text and photos and post it to sites with audiences who are likely to be interested. We would publish the breeders address and a picture of the house from the road. We have no name to use as unfortunately the name we were given on the receipt is illegible.

-Legal action? Trading standards? -The puppys condition was not stated on the advert but surely to some extent it is implied that the puppy will be in a suitable condition to be taken home? 

**After 7 days, assuming no correspondence has been received:
-Print and copy a letter documenting the week after collecting the puppy with text and pictures, referring also to the blog. Post it to neighbouring houses asking for anonymous information about the breeder (ideally name) to be posted through the anonymous contact form the blog will have. I am not absolutely certain of the legal status of this action. That said, I am not sufficiently concerned to be deterred. If we gain the names of the couple (both adults) that sold us the puppy we will publish their names on the blog too.

-Publish details of the breeder to as many internet boards/forums/FB groups as possible.

Thanks so much!


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

Sorry about your loss  What age was the puppy?
I know its a bit late now, but really you rushed into things too quickly and were the unfortunate victims of a bad breeder. What type of dogs were they breeding?
Black faeces can indiciate there was internal bleeding, and that can be caused by many things. Has the vet done a post mortem?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Are you sure it was the breeder? Unfortunately, many puppies pass through the hands of dealers. 

Also, as well intentioned as it may have been, vaccinating a pup so young may not have been the best course of action. If their system was over whelmed with everything else going on, vaccinations would only have added to that, so I'd question why on earth your vet would want to add to their obviously overwhelmed immune system. 

I wish you luck with your quest, take a read back through this section of the forum and it won't take you very long before you see threads with people who breed indiscriminately, and forum members taking their sides when members post to point out that what they are doing isn't helping with the problem of the number of pups being bred without health tests, and no traceability. It's more than an uphill struggle trying to persuade people why you shouldn't breed indiscriminately, or *just* buy a pup from someone who seems genuine, I'm sorry you've had to find out the hard way


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Are you sure it was the breeder? Unfortunately, many puppies pass through the hands of dealers.


The dog that was claimed to be the mother was present.. We have since read about a lot of horror stories involving imported puppies.

WIZ201 - What age was the puppy? - Supposedly 11 weeks.

The blackness was as a result of internal bleeding in the small intestines we were told. They were breeding Cockapoos.

We don't know the final cause of death but it is thought it is probably an electrolyte imbalance or something similar.

I believe it is true, we have learnt the hard way. I guess we figured, we loved the dog, the breeder seemed reasonably pleasant and because of those reasons/naïvety the alarm bells didn't sound.

Thanks for your sympathies, it has been a truly dreadful day.

Anyway, has anyone some advice regarding the post please?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

I assume you collected the puppy from the breeder?
do you have a telephone contact for them?
If so what has their response been?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Sorry for the loss of the puppies life, horrid experience all around, I can't offer any advise but wish you luck on your quest.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

my first thoughts when reading is why is a vet vaccinating a sick puppy.


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

DT said:


> I assume you collected the puppy from the breeder?
> do you have a telephone contact for them?
> If so what has their response been?


Hi there, thanks for your response, as mentioned in the rather long post I left, the number now does not ring, so no response.

We have an illegible name on a receipt but we do have their address as we collected the puppy from their house (we believe).

We will be writing a letter on Wednesday and sending it special delivery, by which time we expect to have a statement from the vet to accompany it. We will be asking for a refund (although, as you will have gathered from my original post, this really my main motivation is not the money).

I have a strong feeling we will receive no response which is why I need advice on our plan of action as detailed in my original post.

Thanks


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

How old was puppy....if there was any doubt as to age (ie under 8 weeks) I would not have vaccinated. Then you say the puppy was wormed and then given Advocate (with only two days apart)....poor puppy was overloaded with chemicals 

What breed was this puppy?

Did you see Parent/s of puppy or was the whole thing a bit suspect?

Has the puppy been tested and Parvo diagnosed, or is it just the Vets diagnosis because of the stools passed by puppy?

Rest in peace puppy xxx


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Are you sure it was the breeder? Unfortunately, many puppies pass through the hands of dealers.
> 
> Also, as well intentioned as it may have been, vaccinating a pup so young may not have been the best course of action. If their system was over whelmed with everything else going on, vaccinations would only have added to that, so I'd question why on earth your vet would want to add to their obviously overwhelmed immune system.
> 
> I wish you luck with your quest, take a read back through this section of the forum and it won't take you very long before you see threads with people who breed indiscriminately, and forum members taking their sides when members post to point out that what they are doing isn't helping with the problem of the number of pups being bred without health tests, and no traceability. It's more than an uphill struggle trying to persuade people why you shouldn't breed indiscriminately, or *just* buy a pup from someone who seems genuine, I'm sorry you've had to find out the hard way


ah you picked up on that too


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

we love bsh's said:


> my first thoughts when reading is why is a vet vaccinating a sick puppy.


I'd also be concerned about flea treatment, an worming treatment and meds given before the vaccinations also to an already sick puppy.


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

we love bsh's said:


> my first thoughts when reading is why is a vet vaccinating a sick puppy.


I've noticed two people are of this opinion, are there more? Is there anyone from a qualified/authoritative position, i.e. vets/animal nurses, not that I don't appreciate contributions from others who don't fit those categories.

Thanks.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Are you sure it was the breeder? Unfortunately, many puppies pass through the hands of dealers.


I agree with the above. 
The fact that the seller's telephone number has been disconnected STRONGLY suggests this puppy came from a dealer. It was probably born in a puppy farm in Ireland (or even overseas) and sold on by this person. unfortunately this is a very common practice and this isn't the first time I've heard of similar.

Did you see the mother and littermates?
What, if any, paperwork did you get?
What breed is the puppy?

I am sorry for your loss... :crying:


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

I would contact the dog warden and RSPCA about this. It may be that they already have some knowledge of this breeder/dealer or whoever it was you got the puppy from.

If that is the case, they could already be sorting out some sort of action already.

So sorry this happened to you, poor puppy, poor you.

Good luck.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

rubypuppy said:


> Hello All,
> The purpose of this post is for us to gain advice, please read it in its entirety before posting, your help will be much appreciated. The advice will help us to decide what action, if any, we can take against the breeder in question.
> 
> Today our little puppy tragically passed away, she was at the vets on a drip.


I am so sorry to hear that you lost your puppy, although the Breeder sounds at fault I must say Im not exactly impressed with your vets either.



> Events are as follows:
> -Monday 4th November, saw advert on Pets4Homes
> 
> -Tuesday 5th November, went to view the puppy, fell in love.
> ...


Pups should be wormed regularly at the breeders starting at 2 weeks old or at least when weaning starts a week or two later and they should continue to be wormed every 2/3 weeks until 12 weeks old, then monthly up to 6 months then after 6 months like adults, if the pup hadn't been wormed then likely she would have worms usually from the mum via the placenta or as larvae passed in the milk, if mum hasn't been wormed then the pups would have them too, and even if the mum had been, eggs can be missed and pregnancy will wake dormant worms so pups should always be wormed so as far as that goes it was wise to worm, you can often tell or suspect anyway as pups will have huge extended pot bellies with a worm load.

I assume but correct me that when they said the pup wasn't in a fit condition to eave home that she was is poor condition and possibly under weight and mentioned about age, did they say what age they estimated her to be? 8 weeks is the usual but Im assuming the vet thought she was well below that? You will see why Ive asked in a moment.


> -Monday 11th November, we brought the puppy to see the nurse* due to our concerns about persistent diarrhoea.*
> 
> -Tuesday 12th * we issued the Advocate Wormer/Flea treatment given by the vet on Saturday 9th November.*


Advocate wormer is not to be used in Puppies under 7 weeks old.
Contra-indications, warnings, etc

Do not use in kittens under 9 weeks of age.

Do not use in puppies under 7 weeks of age.

Further more the manufacturers instructions say:-
There is limited experience on the use of the product in sick and debilitated animals, thus the product should only be used based on a risk-benefit assessment for these animals.
NOAH Compendium of Animal Medicines: Advocate Spot-on Solution - Contra-indications, warnings, etc


> -Wednesday 13th,* vet issued us with special medicine to bind the puppy. The first vaccination was also issued. *


Puppies who are sick, showing signs of illness or are suspected to be incubating an illness should Not be vaccinated.


> -Friday 15th more special food was ordered, but of a different sort to before to try and encourage higher consumption.
> 
> -Sunday 17th,* the first tar black diarrhoea was passed. We immediately took the puppy to the vets where she was taken in and put on a drip. She was also given a blood test, which showed iron deficiency. On a positive note at this time, she also tested negatively for Parvo. The vet said her condition was stable.
> 
> -Monday 18th November (this morning) the vet who had seen the puppy on each occasion rang to say the puppy had passed away. On arrival at the practice we politely informed the vet (a different one this time) that we would settle our balance with them without fuss if the vet who had treated our puppy throughout the week would put in writing the words of concern she had about the puppy; specifically the condition it was in on Saturday 9th November and the fact she said it had been ill-treated and should not have been taken from its mother. The vets colleague said this would not be a problem and that we should return on Wednesday 20th Nov.*


*
Black tarry stools is often an indication that there is internal bleeding somewhere further up the digestive tract. Internal bleeding can be a cause of anemia.

So if she was mine and especially if they estimated her age at less then 7 weeks then she shouldn't have had Advocate which is a pretty strong treatment and not only does fleas and worms, considering she had already been given a wormer anyway, but also does various mites and other forms of worms. Unless of course they did find other things on the sample in which case may be why they gave it.




-We contacted the breeder only to realise their phone seemed to have been disconnected. Not a great surprise.

How you can help?
We need help putting together a plan of action. We're realistic and know we probably cannot cause this individual to cease breeding, but if we can stop anyone else facing heart break after dealing with her, or another similar breeder, it is worth every moment of our time, efforts and money.

Our plan:
-Write to advertising site (Pets4Homes) to find the date the advert was first posted (may help us determine age of puppy and could compliment vets statement and questioning of age).

-Write to the breeders address and send a letter signed for. In the letter we will politely register our disappointment and ask for a refund as suggested by the vet (we hold no hope). We will also state that if no reply is received within 7 days we will commence other actions, perhaps as per below**

-Investigate our options with RSPCA/PDSA, suggestions on this would be appreciated. Puppies were kept in an outhouse (we did not see inside), father dog was not at the address, first vaccination had not been given, no papers/evidence of worming/fleeing (yes, all the alarm bells should have been ringing from the start, we now know.)

-Create a blog documenting the week in text and photos and post it to sites with audiences who are likely to be interested. We would publish the breeders address and a picture of the house from the road. We have no name to use as unfortunately the name we were given on the receipt is illegible.

-Legal action? Trading standards? -The puppys condition was not stated on the advert but surely to some extent it is implied that the puppy will be in a suitable condition to be taken home?

**After 7 days, assuming no correspondence has been received:
-Print and copy a letter documenting the week after collecting the puppy with text and pictures, referring also to the blog. Post it to neighbouring houses asking for anonymous information about the breeder (ideally name) to be posted through the anonymous contact form the blog will have. I am not absolutely certain of the legal status of this action. That said, I am not sufficiently concerned to be deterred. If we gain the names of the couple (both adults) that sold us the puppy we will publish their names on the blog too.

-Publish details of the breeder to as many internet boards/forums/FB groups as possible.

Thanks so much!

Click to expand...

Its important you get a copy of the add if you can and also keep safe any paper work. Puppies as awful as it seems are covered by the sale of goods act there is details of what to do including getting trading standards involved on this link.

What to do if you've bought an ill pet |

You also really need to find out where you stand legally and what you should and shouldn't do.

There is a dog law solicitor Trevor cooper link below.

Doglaw - SPECIALIST ADVICE ON DOG LAW

Or there is also Justice for Dogs.

justice_for_dogs_charity

The Breeder clearly sounds at fault, and the pup was under age and probably not in good condition and sickly when you got her from all accounts, but in my opinion anyway there was also things she shouldn't have had at the vets in light of her condition and the fact that she already had diarrhoea prior to being vaccinated.*


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

MerlinsMum said:


> I agree with the above.
> The fact that the seller's telephone number has been disconnected STRONGLY suggests this puppy came from a dealer. It was probably born in a puppy farm in Ireland (or even overseas) and sold on by this person. unfortunately this is a very common practice and this isn't the first time I've heard of similar.
> 
> Did you see the mother and littermates?
> ...


The husband of the breeder was Irish, which I suppose could add to speculation that the puppy was 'farmed' in Ireland (in no way am I trying to enter into a debate based on nationalities and peoples likelihood to engage in such tactics, I'm merely making an observation). Furthermore, we've found articles by Manchester Police working with the RSPCA on tackling Irish imported puppies (we bought the puppy in Trafford).

Saw the mother (Cocker Spaniel).
Puppy was a Cockerpoo.
No paperwork.


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

Hi so sorry to hear about what has happened, what breed was this puppy and whereabouts in the country did you go and get it from, someone on here might have info for you if its a byb that is known to others on here


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

rubypuppy said:


> Saw the mother (Cocker Spaniel).


Is there anything in your mind which might suggest it wasn't the puppy's real mother? (something you didn't think was important at the time).



> Puppy was a Cockerpoo.
> No paperwork.


That's appalling. There should at least have been SOMETHING - just a record of birth if nothing else. Were you given a receipt? I'm guessing the puppy wasn't cheap either


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

rubypuppy said:


> I've noticed two people are of this opinion, are there more? Is there anyone from a qualified/authoritative position, i.e. vets/animal nurses, not that I don't appreciate contributions from others who don't fit those categories.
> 
> Thanks.


I stated it also because while I might not be qualified, it might be something taken in to consideration if you do try to get someone prosecuted for this, most Vets will NOT vaccinate a puppy with an already compromised immune system.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

rubypuppy said:


> I've noticed two people are of this opinion, are there more? Is there anyone from a qualified/authoritative position, i.e. vets/animal nurses, not that I don't appreciate contributions from others who don't fit those categories.
> 
> Thanks.


You don't need to be qualified its common knowledge sick puppies shouldn't be vaccinated. Below is from Noah on Nobivac DPPI one manufacturer of vaccines that are used a lot and it states on there.

Nobivac DHPPi: Contra-indications, warnings, etc

Contra-indications, warnings, etc

*Only healthy dogs should be vaccinated.* The vaccine may not be effective in dogs incubating the disease at the time of vaccination. Some animals may be immunologically incompetent and fail to respond to vaccination. Animals that have received the corresponding anti-serum or immunosuppressive drugs should not be vaccinated until an interval of at least 4 weeks has elapsed. 
NOAH Compendium of Animal Medicines: Nobivac DHPPi - Contra-indications, warnings, etc


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

My local vets always asks owners of puppies that are going to be vaccinated.how old is the puppy and how long have you had the puppy.

If ownership is less than a week, they won't vaccinate cos of stress in the pup already and they won't vaccinate any pup under 7 weeks.cos there is no point.

Other things can cause black runny stools apart from internal bleeding.

Puppies are being illegally imported from more countries than Ireland. If you can get hold of the RSPCA, they may be able to help you.

Nobody he is patronising you, nobody is condemning you.....they feel for you and the loss of the pups life.

You had a bad day....such a lot to take in in a short time.

I hope you can get to the bottom of all this.....would be interested to know what happens.

take care, good luck.


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

MerlinsMum said:


> Is there anything in your mind which might suggest it wasn't the puppy's real mother? (something you didn't think was important at the time).
> 
> That's appalling. There should at least have been SOMETHING - just a record of birth if nothing else. Were you given a receipt? I'm guessing the puppy wasn't cheap either


No particular gut feelings at the time, although we didn't get a close inspection of the mother, we did not see her interact in any way with the puppy.

A written reciept when we first visited and left a deposit, reciept has indicipherable signature and does not state age or health of dog. Merely the date the receipt was written.

The puppy was £550, the amount spent at the vets over the week reaches around £300. To worsen the deal financially everything is excluded from the insurance that was provided by the vet. But anyway, lets keep this thread about the breeder and what action we can take rather than looking into the financial aspect.

Thanks


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

chichi said:


> Has the puppy been tested and Parvo diagnosed, or is it just the Vets diagnosis because of the stools passed by puppy?
> 
> Rest in peace puppy xxx


Specifically tested and found negative for Parvo. Tested on the night before the morning she passed away.

And thanks for that comment.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Have you rechecked the adverts on pet4homes? Maybe they are using a generic picture which might be able to help you find them if they are brokers, which can and do often from from other places than Ireland, there seem to be a lot of the cocker x poodle crosses advertised in that area? 

Are you handing over the address details of where you picked your puppy up from to the RSPCA, get your Vet to contact the RSPCA?


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

lilythepink said:


> My local vets always asks owners of puppies that are going to be vaccinated.how old is the puppy and how long have you had the puppy.
> 
> If ownership is less than a week, they won't vaccinate cos of stress in the pup already and they won't vaccinate any pup under 7 weeks.cos there is no point.
> 
> ...


A kind and useful post thank you. Everyone has been kind which is appreciated.

We will let you know, our main priority is to legally bring about some ramifications for the breeder and to avoid more puppies suffering.

We could do with more posts detailing whether it is worth getting in touch with RSPCA/PDSA/ other authorities?


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

Meezey said:


> Have you rechecked the adverts on pet4homes? Maybe they are using a generic picture which might be able to help you find them if they are brokers, which can and do often from from other places than Ireland, there seem to be a lot of the cocker x poodle crosses advertised in that area?
> 
> Are you handing over the address details of where you picked your puppy up from to the RSPCA, get your Vet to contact the RSPCA?


At the moment I am being discreet with the breeder address but merely because I want to line up the best plan of action before I act. Of course I would be willing to hand the address to authorities such as the RSPCA.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

rubypuppy said:


> At the moment I am being discreet with the breeder address but merely because I want to line up the best plan of action before I act. Of course I would be willing to hand the address to authorities such as the RSPCA.


If you and your Vet suspect abuse and or cruelty to the puppies, then you need to let the RSPCA know, there is a large chance that there are other puppies in a similar situation to yours.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

It's taken a while for your posts to be approved, as a new member it can happen, but now that your replies are showing hopefully it's got you more of the response you wanted.

As SDH has said, regarding vaccinations, it's common knowledge that a) a dog with a compromised immune system shouldn't be vaccinated, and b) young pups under 8 weeks of age minimum shouldn't be vaccinated, and should preferrably be closer to 12 weeks of age, as the vaccine may be rendered ineffective by the immunity passed on from mum. 

If you've got a copy of the advert, and the address, along with your receipt you should be able to build up a case against these people, whether or not they bred the pup, they supplied you a puppy. And as awful a way as it is to describe it, what you bought wasn't *fit for purpose*, in fact it was very much less so, you should have been welcoming a new happy, healthy member into your family, not grieving after the heart ache you've been through. I suppose the one thing you can draw from such an awful experience is that you are doing something positive from it all, many people don't have the heart to try and take it further.


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

I'm not quite sure what you are accusing the breeder of? I would certainly consider them unethical for deliberately producing cross bred puppies but that's common these days and if people want to part with good money for them...........

You were supposedly happy with the conditions that the pup was raised in or you would not have bought it, would you?

When you buy a crossbred puppy, then you have no trace of parentage. Did you see the relevant health tests for the two parents?

A wise buyer would have made sure that they bought a puppy with insurance cover.

If the Vet thought it was under age and not in the best of health, why did he bombard its immune system with vaccine and worming chemicals?

I'm feel very sorry for the puppy but think that all concerned in this sad story share responsible for its fate.


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## Tollisty (May 27, 2008)

Have a look at the sales of goods act, puppies are included in it. Puppy was not fit for purpose. I know it seems wrong thinking of a puppy like that but that's how the law sees them, you have the same rights as if buying a TV.


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> It's taken a while for your posts to be approved, as a new member it can happen, but now that your replies are showing hopefully it's got you more of the response you wanted.
> 
> As SDH has said, regarding vaccinations, it's common knowledge that a) a dog with a compromised immune system shouldn't be vaccinated, and b) young pups under 8 weeks of age minimum shouldn't be vaccinated, and should preferrably be closer to 12 weeks of age, as the vaccine may be rendered ineffective by the immunity passed on from mum.
> 
> If you've got a copy of the advert, and the address, along with your receipt you should be able to build up a case against these people, whether or not they bred the pup, they supplied you a puppy. And as awful a way as it is to describe it, what you bought wasn't *fit for purpose*, in fact it was very much less so, you should have been welcoming a new happy, healthy member into your family, not grieving after the heart ache you've been through. I suppose the one thing you can draw from such an awful experience is that you are doing something positive from it all, many people don't have the heart to try and take it further.


Thanks for this information.

Also thanks for your points on building up a case against the breeder.

We will think about going down the Trading Standards route but at the moment this is not a priority.

Thanks!


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

Tollisty said:


> Have a look at the sales of goods act, puppies are included in it. Puppy was not fit for purpose. I know it seems wrong thinking of a puppy like that but that's how the law sees them, you have the same rights as if buying a TV.


Thanks! Will be fully investigating this avenue in due course, perhaps by enlisting professional help. But at the moment our focus is on the breeder.


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

Meezey said:


> If you and your Vet suspect abuse and or cruelty to the puppies, then you need to let the RSPCA know, there is a large chance that there are other puppies in a similar situation to yours.


Noted and I believe we will be taking this route soon.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

You've been given links to Trevor Cooper, Doglaw. 

He is an expert in these matters. It will help you a great deal to at least have a brief chat to him. I am sure he has dealt with similar cases before


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

Westy said:


> I'm not quite sure what you are accusing the breeder of? I would certainly consider them unethical for deliberately producing cross bred puppies but that's common these days and if people want to part with good money for them...........


As stated, selling a puppy that in a vets opinion was not ready for homing.
Breeding a puppy in an outhouse, take your pick really.

Deliberately cross breeding - probably a great subject for another debate in another thread. Lets remain focussed.



Westy said:


> You were supposedly happy with the conditions that the pup was raised in or you would not have bought it, would you?


We're not hiding the fact that now, in hindsight we realise alarm bells should have been ringing. But the fact is, we were a little naif and fell in love with the puppy and wanted to give it a good home for many, many years. We were a typical victim but make no mistake, we were the VICTIM. And of course, it goes without saying, the animal was indeed also a victim.



Westy said:


> When you buy a crossbred puppy, then you have no trace of parentage. Did you see the relevant health tests for the two parents?


No, as stated, no paper work.



Westy said:


> A wise buyer would have made sure that they bought a puppy with insurance cover.


True, and part of the idea behind why I want to make the story more public is to make other new buyers more 'wise'.



Westy said:


> If the Vet thought it was under age and not in the best of health, why did he bombard its immune system with vaccine and worming chemicals?


Thats a question we will ask the vet.



Westy said:


> I'm feel very sorry for the puppy but think that all concerned in this sad story share responsible for its fate.


Okay, of course we feel sorry for the puppy too, dreadfully sorry and we will do for a long time.


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

MerlinsMum said:


> You've been given links to Trevor Cooper, Doglaw.
> 
> He is an expert in these matters. It will help you a great deal to at least have a brief chat to him. I am sure he has dealt with similar cases before


I will look into this tomorrow, very useful, thanks!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Just to note, there are some tried and tested cross breeds, and it is possible to try and ensure you produce a happy, healthy pup from parents of different breeds, but unfortunately a lot of people just cash in on what's most fashionable, or *rare*. That's not to say pedigree breeders are any better, there is certainly no guarantee what any breeder *promises* is true. You have to do your research I'm afraid, and decide whether or not to place your trust in them from what you find out about how they operate, what health tests they do, what their aims in breeding are, etc, etc.


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

We received a reply from Pets4homes.co.uk

We've also gathered a list of other suspect ads for them to investigate. It does appear that they look into these cases.



> From: support @pets4homes.co.uk
> Date: 18 November 2013 21:58:12 GMT
> To: w*****@hotmail.com
> Subject: Re: P4H Contact - Reporting Advert or Advertiser
> ...


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## Ann Elizabeth (May 12, 2013)

I'm so sorry for your loss and for the sad passing of this poor puppy (poor baby, no mention of name or gender) This must have been the day from hell for you, preceded by 10 days of worry, vet trips & bills. You have my sympathy on all counts. 

If you got the puppy on the 9th why the dash to the vets on the same day - was it for a quick puppy check or were you concerned about the puppy's health?
Did you try to contact the breeder/seller during the 10 days of the pup's illness? 
I, like others are, question the wisdom of vaccinating any puppy/dog that is unwell, and as someone else mentioned like theirs, my vets will not vaccinate any pups within a week of you bringing them home. 
I have always been told by my vets to allow a minimum of seven days between wormer and advocate in adult dogs. Frontline was prescribed for my puppies until they had reached 12 weeks, were a good weight and seen/checked by vet (although I apply advocate to my adult dogs vet insisted on first application being done at vets).
Was change in food gradual and did puppy manage to eat it ok or were there problems eating - possibly because recently or partially weaned . 
I'm sorry I have lots of questions and am unable to answer yours, other posters have mentioned Sales of Goods Act/trading standards/RSPCA etc. and offered some good advice.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm glad to hear they are helping you investigate this further, fingers crossed you can get something done about these people.


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just to note, there are some tried and tested cross breeds, and it is possible to try and ensure you produce a happy, healthy pup from parents of different breeds, but unfortunately a lot of people just cash in on what's most fashionable, or *rare*. That's not to say pedigree breeders are any better, there is certainly no guarantee what any breeder *promises* is true. You have to do your research I'm afraid, and decide whether or not to place your trust in them from what you find out about how they operate, what health tests they do, what their aims in breeding are, etc, etc.


Hi Sleeping Lion, thanks for all your useful and kind posts this evening, we've really appreciated them, but please can we try to maintain the objectivity of this thread, by that I mean discussing ways we can take action against the breeder. Thank you so much and good evening.


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## Ann Elizabeth (May 12, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm glad to hear they are helping you investigate this further, fingers crossed you can get something done about these people.


 Totally agree


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm glad to hear they are helping you investigate this further, fingers crossed you can get something done about these people.


Thanks again, we will keep everyone posted.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

rubypuppy said:


> Hi Sleeping Lion, thanks for all your useful and kind posts this evening, we've really appreciated them, but please can we try to maintain the objectivity of this thread, by that I mean discussing ways we can take action against the breeder. Thank you so much and good evening.


You're welcome, as you your self pointed out, there will be a lot of people reading this thread, hence my post to simply state one side is no better than the other, it is down to the individual breeder, unfortunately you seem to have come across one of the worst ones. Over the years since I've owned dogs, which isn't that long, I've come across horror stories from across the board, yours sadly isn't all that different from many others. In fact you may (or may not) be surprised at just how far some *breeders* will go to falsify documentation 

I will warn you that it's not easy, judging from what has happened with other people who start out to try and bring down, or highlight bad breeders. There have even been specific anti puppy farm threads on here, and yet these people seem to slip through loop holes and set up their operations again.

Hopefully, having yet another thread highlighting the problem though, will come up again via search engines, and the message may get through to one or two more individuals that buying a pup involves a lot of research, possibly more than they might have thought. Threads like this prove invaluable when people are searching on the internet for a new pup, something that you may not have thought of, but plenty of people looking for a pup end up on here after googling, and read through the posts.

Anyway, you're probably still rummaging through all the info, fingers crossed you manage to get some answers, and hopefully ensure this person at least can't do the same to another family hoping to bring home a puppy.


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

Ann Elizabeth said:


> I'm so sorry for your loss and for the sad passing of this poor puppy (poor baby, no mention of name or gender) This must have been the day from hell for you, preceded by 10 days of worry, vet trips & bills. You have my sympathy on all counts.


Thanks for your kind thoughts, she was called Ruby. The day from hell sums it up.



Ann Elizabeth said:


> If you got the puppy on the 9th why the dash to the vets on the same day - was it for a quick puppy check or were you concerned about the puppy's health?


Diahorrea within an hour of picking her up worried us. We just wanted to do the best thing for the puppy, getting professional help seemed and I still believe was the most responsible thing to do, we were encouraged to go to the vets when we made a call to them to explain the situation shortly after picking the puppy up.



Ann Elizabeth said:


> Did you try to contact the breeder/seller during the 10 days of the pup's illness?


Via text but received nothing in return.


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> You're welcome, as you your self pointed out, there will be a lot of people reading this thread, hence my post to simply state one side is no better than the other, it is down to the individual breeder, unfortunately you seem to have come across one of the worst ones. Over the years since I've owned dogs, which isn't that long, I've come across horror stories from across the board, yours sadly isn't all that different from many others. In fact you may (or may not) be surprised at just how far some *breeders* will go to falsify documentation
> 
> I will warn you that it's not easy, judging from what has happened with other people who start out to try and bring down, or highlight bad breeders. There have even been specific anti puppy farm threads on here, and yet these people seem to slip through loop holes and set up their operations again.
> 
> ...


Indeed, hopefully we will help a little bit, we will keep posting about the efforts we make.
Thanks


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

Ann Elizabeth said:


> Totally agree


We've compiled a list of similar ads (these ads seem to often have similar themes/traits. i.e. mobile numbers only, pictures never show much of the location or humans, short descriptions and some offer delivery only) for the advertising site to review and sent it to them.

Our main focus however is on what options we have to deal with the breeder we used, RSPCA keeps coming up as an option, we will look into this but more advice would be useful!


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

_True, and part of the idea behind why I want to make the story more public is to make other new buyers more 'wise'._

There is already plenty of information out there for those who research before rather than after buying a puppy - one more story won't make any difference. Google is your friend.

*Did you see the relevant health tests for the two parents?*
_No, as stated, no paper work._
No pedigree for the puppy doesn't mean that you shouldn't ask to see health tests for the parents. Both breeds carry problems that should be tested. A little research shows what they are.

I'm always amazed when people don't ask questions until after the event. :huh: There is no reason why anyone with internet access shouldn't know how to buy a healthy puppy from a responsible breeder but I suppose it's always easier to blame others than to take responsibility for our own actions.........


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## Ann Elizabeth (May 12, 2013)

rubypuppy said:


> Thanks for your kind thoughts, she was called Ruby. The day from hell sums it up.
> 
> *Apologies I should have realised from your user name, but admit this thread has upset me, poor puppy, RIP little Ruby*_._
> 
> ...


I wish you every success in tracking these people down and getting some justice and retribution for Ruby - do chat to the lawyer that one of the other posters has suggested at least to ensure that you do not fall foul of the law. But also take some time to grieve for your little girl, I know you only had her for a very short (and worrying time) but it is surprising how quickly they find a place in our hearts
Take care & Good Luck!


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

I am so sorry to hear of your new puppys sort sad life, I also agree that it doesn't seem the right thing to do regarding your vet vaccinating an ill puppy
I am not sure why contacting trading standards is not a priorty, they give very good legal advice, and can help with how you should proceed, 
I have had dealings with them in the past which has helped greatly,
Also agree with contacting the RSPCA, 
pets4homes seem to bee taking this very seriously and should have all the details of the unscrupulous people in their records of ads
I do hope you are successful in tracing this breeder, and getting them closed down too
I had an incident when I first started breeding,[although mine are cats] I did name and shame, as she wouldn't respond to phone calls etc, and disabled her phone too
Good luck, and RIP Little Ruby


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

jaycee05 said:


> I am so sorry to hear of your new puppys sort sad life, I also agree that it doesn't seem the right thing to do regarding your vet vaccinating an ill puppy
> I am not sure why contacting trading standards is not a priorty, they give very good legal advice, and can help with how you should proceed,
> I have had dealings with them in the past which has helped greatly,
> Also agree with contacting the RSPCA,
> ...


Thanks for this. I will contact Trading Standards tomorrow, having done a bit more research now that is one of our priorities, along with contacting the solicitor and the RSPCA.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

So sorry to read about the loss of your cockapoo puppy in what should have been a joyous time for you.

They are so popular now that many are churning them out to make ££.

Whilst this can not help you now, if anyone is considering one please follow our guidelines on what to look for in a breeder. You will not get breeders testing for everything but as a minimum make sure one parent has been DNA tested clear for prcd-PRA. : Finding the Right Breeder - Cockapoo Owners Club UK

I do hope you get answers in your investigation.


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> So sorry to read about the loss of your cockapoo puppy in what should have been a joyous time for you.
> 
> They are so popular now that many are churning them out to make ££.
> 
> ...


Thanks, this will help us too when we feel ready to purchase another Cockapoo puppy. We've learnt a lot and it has been very difficult.


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## catseyes (Sep 10, 2010)

Im so sorry for your loss, but definatly use the link given about the cockapoos, i joined way before i got zelda and it really helped.

It can be hard finding a good breeder as there are so many doing it just for money with them being so popular, and its hard to wait for a pup when there are so many ready to go.. we waited for the mum to be mated, through the pregnancy and the the litter arriving.

Was lovely to really get to know the breeder.


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## Cocoscaninecuts (Nov 19, 2013)

rubypuppy said:


> I've noticed two people are of this opinion, are there more? Is there anyone from a qualified/authoritative position, i.e. vets/animal nurses, not that I don't appreciate contributions from others who don't fit those categories.
> 
> Thanks.


Hi, Gutted to hear about this 

Put it this way, if a human turns up for a vaccination and they are unwell, the vaccination is not given until they are of better health and the same consideration should have been given to your poor wee soul.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

rubypuppy said:


> I've noticed two people are of this opinion, are there more? Is there anyone from a qualified/authoritative position, i.e. vets/animal nurses, not that I don't appreciate contributions from others who don't fit those categories.
> 
> Thanks.


I have no vetinary training, but I don't think that an unwell puppy should have been vaccinated - unless perhaps, the vet concerned thought that the vaccine might help the puppy's ailment. On the whole, vet's don't tend to use vaccines, flea treatments, worm treatments etc on an ill puppy, because ofthen their little bodies just can't cope with the influx of chemicals.

Having said that, from what you have written I think the puppy would have been unlikely to survive no matter what action was taken by the vet. Persistent diarrhoea is a killer for very young animals.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Westy said:


> _True, and part of the idea behind why I want to make the story more public is to make other new buyers more 'wise'._
> 
> There is already plenty of information out there for those who research before rather than after buying a puppy - one more story won't make any difference. Google is your friend.
> 
> ...


Westy - I think you're being harsh here - OP had already admitted making a serious error - harping on the fact doesn't help.

Rubypuppy - I am so sorry for your poor little girl, and the suffering she must have gone through. I think you are to be lauded for trying to stop this particular dealer from doing it again.

It occurred to me that there may be people who have bougth pups from the same litter, or different litters advertised by this dealer - would it be worth (or even possible) to place an ad with P4H asking if anyone else has had such a heartbreaking experience, and if they'd be prepared to pool information and perhaps resources?


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

catseyes said:


> Im so sorry for your loss, but definatly use the link given about the cockapoos, i joined way before i got zelda and it really helped.
> 
> It can be hard finding a good breeder as there are so many doing it just for money with them being so popular, and its hard to wait for a pup when there are so many ready to go.. we waited for the mum to be mated, through the pregnancy and the the litter arriving.
> 
> Was lovely to really get to know the breeder.


Thanks for the well wishes and the account of how you acquired your puppy. Good look with Zelda!


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

lostbear said:


> It occurred to me that there may be people who have bougth pups from the same litter, or different litters advertised by this dealer - would it be worth (or even possible) to place an ad with P4H asking if anyone else has had such a heartbreaking experience, and if they'd be prepared to pool information and perhaps resources?


This is a great idea. I will make time to write to the p4h ad board today/tomorrow, it is likely others will have a similar story to tell.


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## catseyes (Sep 10, 2010)

Thank you x


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## Cocoscaninecuts (Nov 19, 2013)

lostbear said:


> Westy - I think you're being harsh here - OP had already admitted making a serious error - harping on the fact doesn't help.
> 
> Rubypuppy - I am so sorry for your poor little girl, and the suffering she must have gone through. I think you are to be lauded for trying to stop this particular dealer from doing it again.
> 
> It occurred to me that there may be people who have bougth pups from the same litter, or different litters advertised by this dealer - would it be worth (or even possible) to place an ad with P4H asking if anyone else has had such a heartbreaking experience, and if they'd be prepared to pool information and perhaps resources?


Actually that is a brilliant point Lostbear,

it makes me fill up a bit when I think of what happened with a kitten I once bought.

In 1994 I bought a Persian kitten, she was gorgeous and smokey grey coloured. My pal Alastair bought another member of the litter 'Apollo'

I did insure her and got her vaccinated and this was from the breeders home, not a kitten farm or anything.

Anyway my wee baby 'Andromeda' had kind of flu like symptoms of intermittent severity resulting in lots of trips to the vets and lots of bills but that wasn't the priority.

To cut a long story short the whole litter died one by one from FIP (Feline Infective Peritonitis).

We all got our money back from the breeder but the Insurance company applied the excess repeatedly for each trip to the vet rather than accepting all visits were for the one serious complaint so as a 21 year old I lost my first proper pet when it was only several months old and was £100s out of pocket.

Like you I was more upset about the suffering my kitten had endured than the £ and I never bothered to complain to the insurers.

Perhaps there is a litter wide issue in your case too, the only positive from my case over yours was the breeder paid up straight away after the vet called but obviously that is more difficult in your case.

All the very best of luck in taking the positive action you have, now I'm off to find a tissue....


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## Bryxy (Jun 6, 2013)

rubypuppy said:


> I've noticed two people are of this opinion, are there more? Is there anyone from a qualified/authoritative position, i.e. vets/animal nurses, not that I don't appreciate contributions from others who don't fit those categories.
> 
> Thanks.


I am so sorry for the loss of your puppy 

I'm a vet student, so not qualified yet and certainly not at a level to definitively criticise your vets professional opinion. But I have been taught there is no reason to vaccinate an unwell dog, in fact doing so is quite redundant and it's very doubtful the dog would develop proper immunity. The dog's immune system is already in full action trying to correct an illness, but there is only so much it can do at a time. The vaccine is supposed to initiate an immune response, but if the immune system is already busy dealing with one problem it can go either two ways. Either it won't be able to respond appropriately to the vaccine, rendering it useless or this second response may put more stress on the immune system making it more difficult to fight the primary infection. It might be worth asking your vet why they vaccinated.

I wish you luck and hope something can be done to stop this person causing more suffering from her reckless breeding.


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

_Westy - I think you're being harsh here_
Possibly. I see it as honest and straightforward.

Let's look objectively at the facts that the OP has given us.

5th Nov - Saw puppy and was happy with the conditions of dam and litter, even though they were bred in an 'outhouse', which has now become negative.

9th Nov - Collected puppy. Although she did not even have the breeder's name and did not 'get close inspection of the Mother', OP was still happy with the conditions. But as puppy had diarrhoea within an hour, immediately took her to the Vet, who said she had been ill-treated (I'm not sure what is meant by that?) and gave her worming meds.

11th Nov - Took pup to nurse re diarrhoea.

13th Nov - Vet gave meds for diarrhoea as well as first vaccination

17th Nov - Black tar diarrhoea and so pup taken and left with Vet.

18th Nov - Poor pup died.

Playing Devil's Advocate here, could the pup have not been healthy with the breeder. The OP would surely have noticed diarrhoea in the room/on the pup if it was sickly.

Could she not, with a low immune system, be knocked again by the worming chemicals as well as the stress of moving to a new home, and have possibly picked up a bug/virus at the Vets? It doesn't take long for a puppy to become dehydrated and deteriorate very quickly.

Then add vaccine 2 days later to add to the stress and shoot the immune system even more.

Just 4 days later the poor pup has black tar diarrhoea, which can be a symptom of gastrointestinal bleeding, gastroenteritis, a side effect of pepto bismol (a med often given for diarrhoea!), medication overdose or excess iron - interesting that the Vet said that she was iron deficient!

The breeders have now disconnected their phone. Does that mean that they have no other pups to sell? Surely that would be shooting themselves in the foot if they were bad breeders just doing it for money?

So whilst understanding the grief and dreadful time that the OP has gone through, my point is that there are many other possible reasons why this poor puppy didn't make the old bones as we would have all hoped that are not necessarily down to the breeder - that is why I'm not supporting this witch hunt.


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

Westy said:


> There is already plenty of information out there for those who research before rather than after buying a puppy - one more story won't make any difference. Google is your friend.


I beg to differ, if keywords especially in suitable H tags and meta descriptions are chosen correctly, i.e. keywords being the name/address of the bad breeder, then 'your friend' Google is likely to connect the prospective buyer to the relevant page. That is of course if they decide to do some research on the breeders details in the advert they have seen. Even if that research is simply to scope out the address using Google for route planning. One more story could literally make all the difference for someone. Lets not be defeatist!



Westy said:


> I'm always amazed when people don't ask questions until after the event. :huh: There is no reason why anyone with internet access shouldn't know how to buy a healthy puppy from a responsible breeder


The information is there, but I suppose the problem is that not everyone, especially first time buyers, know of the need to search for it.

You can imply stupidity on the part of the first time/uninformed buyer as much as you like with language like 'it amazes me' and emoticons like this, hmy: but that is not productive. It's actually actually quite rude and upsetting as others have pointed out, but lets not get personal.

What is productive however is questioning why people do not search for the information that is available...

I guess the answer is because too often they do not know of and therefore do not recognise the dangers that are likely to face them during the buying process.

So the question is, how does one go about getting those uninformed, potential victims to realise that they need to make themselves informed? Well, I guess you have to break their knowledge deficit by making them come across the information whilst doing what they do on a daily basis, you also have to put it in a format they will have the interest to digest. Unfortunately you're not going to find a medium to reach them all at once but I know how I can join other people who are trying and make my own start.

I'm starting to do this by making a blog with emotive pictures documenting our puppies life and relevant comments from P4H, the vet and solicitor. I will then get a URL to the blog posted on Facebook and promote that post with some paid advertising. I have someone who does this for my business all the time and for the uncompetitive keywords we will use in this case the reach will easily achieve 10,000+ people daily, fairly inexpensively. Worth every penny if the story touches and informs even one person.

So tell me 'Westy', what have you done today to help people to realise the need to become more knowledgeable on this subject? Or have you just sat there, being tactless, rolling your eyes and letting the situation 'amaze' you?


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

The question of how to get the information to puppy buyers has been the same for years. You can only lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. 
I usually suggest that potential buyers read this
http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/breedercomparison.htm

The web, as well as Vets, are full of information for anyone who cares to look, as you have now found in the last couple of days. You've found this site with some knowledgable people.

I know absolutely nothing about cars and so I wouldn't find an advert in the paper and part with my money. I'd ask some who knew about that world for their advice - not go and make the purchase and then gun for the person who sold it to me.

The key words to ask Google are "How to find a reputable dog breeder" but that's not what you want to hear and so I'll leave you to your own thoughts.

_So tell me 'Westy', what have you done today to help people to realise the need to become more knowledgeable on this subject? Or have you just sat there, being tactless, rolling your eyes and letting the situation 'amaze' you?_

As YOU have decided to make this personal, I have spent the last 38 years of my life as a Veterinary Nurse, dog groomer, dog exhibitor and breeder and many other animal related areas like running quarantine kennels, helping whoever has asked me for advice.

Today I have helped my Vet for a couple of hours as he has staff sick and I've worked for 2 hours in my local rescue kennels.

Can I ask you the same question?


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

rubypuppy said:


> I beg to differ, if keywords especially in suitable H tags and meta descriptions are chosen correctly, i.e. keywords being the name/address of the bad breeder, then 'your friend' Google is likely to connect the prospective buyer to the relevant page. That is of course if they decide to do some research on the breeders details in the advert they have seen. Even if that research is simply to scope out the address using Google for route planning. One more story could literally make all the difference for someone. Lets not be defeatist!
> 
> The information is there, but I suppose the problem is that not everyone, especially first time buyers, know of the need to search for it.
> 
> ...


And here lies the key issue- getting the message out to the public, in a place where the public will see & acknowledge it. It sounds like you're doing your best to get the message out there & seen by as many people as possible. Did you see the thread I posted earlier about the family who had been through a similar thing with their puppy? Here's a link in case it's of any use to you:
Mum&#039;s warning after buying puppy which died after just eight days - Reading Post

I'm so very sorry you had to go through the sadness of losing your little pup


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

Westy said:


> The key words to ask Google are "How to find a reputable dog breeder".
> 
> _So tell me 'Westy', what have you done today to help people to realise the need to become more knowledgeable on this subject? Or have you just sat there, being tactless, rolling your eyes and letting the situation 'amaze' you?_
> 
> ...


You didn't actually specifically answer the question at all then. But never mind that.

But you can private message me and we can have a chat, I'll start it now. I think we're clearly on the same side but I don't think you realised how hurtful and in my opinion unconstructive parts of some of your comments were yesterday.

Thanks


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Westy said:


> The key words to ask Google are "*How to find a reputable dog breeder*" but that's not what you want to hear and so I'll leave you to your own thoughts.
> 
> _So tell me 'Westy', what have you done today to help people to realise the need to become more knowledgeable on this subject? Or have you just sat there, being tactless, rolling your eyes and letting the situation 'amaze' you?_
> 
> ...


But realistically, are people going to use the word 'reputable' in their searches. Yes, they probably should, but it's unlikely.

This is the result I got from typing in 'puppies for sale' on Google, which is probably the first thing that would come to many peoples' heads. Advice on finding out how to choose a 'good' breeder is somewhat thin on the ground 

https://www.google.co.uk/#q=puppies+for+sale


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

Westy said:


> The key words to ask Google are "How to find a reputable dog breeder" but that's not what you want to hear and so I'll leave you to your own thoughts.


But people are not searching for this terms because of the reasons I stated in my post, unfortunately they are not automatically aware that the market is plagued by bad breeders.

It's a shame. 

The post I am referring to is:
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-bree...ssed-away-advice-needed-7.html#post1063354880


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

rubypuppy said:


> I beg to differ, if keywords especially in suitable H tags and meta descriptions are chosen correctly, i.e. keywords being the name/address of the bad breeder, then 'your friend' Google is likely to connect the prospective buyer to the relevant page. That is of course if they decide to do some research on the breeders details in the advert they have seen. Even if that research is simply to scope out the address using Google for route planning. One more story could literally make all the difference for someone. Lets not be defeatist!
> 
> The information is there, but I suppose the problem is that not everyone, especially first time buyers, know of the need to search for it.
> 
> ...


I haven't responded to this thread before, but have followed it closely and read every post.
First of all, sympathy in the loss of your poor little pup. It's obviously a very sad and difficult time for you and your family. 
Secondly , I fully understand What you are saying - when looking for an ethically bred pup how DO you know what questions to ask about testing, parentage, conditions etc ?
When I was looking for my dog/puppy last year I had no idea about health testing and genetics, I was just looking for a nice little dog to keep us company , and hopefully a healthy one but not really expecting any guarantees on that.And I consider myself intelligent , resourceful and Google IS my best friend - I just had no idea what to look for. 
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but not helping you at the moment. As you've said yourself , when you look for your next pup you will be fore-armed with all the information you've been given and hopefully not too hurt to accept the advice you've been offered. 
Wishing you all the best in getting the answers and outcome you're hoping for and for a happier puppy filled future .


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

simplysardonic said:


> But realistically, are people going to use the word 'reputable' in their searches. Yes, they probably should, but it's unlikely.
> 
> This is the result I got from typing in 'puppies for sale' on Google, which is probably the first thing that would come to many peoples' heads. Advice on finding out how to choose a 'good' breeder is somewhat thin on the ground
> 
> https://www.google.co.uk/#q=puppies+for+sale


My thoughts exactly.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

simplysardonic said:


> But realistically, are people going to use the word 'reputable' in their searches. Yes, they probably should, but it's unlikely.
> 
> This is the result I got from typing in 'puppies for sale' on Google, which is probably the first thing that would come to many peoples' heads. Advice on finding out how to choose a 'good' breeder is somewhat thin on the ground
> 
> https://www.google.co.uk/#q=puppies+for+sale


The problem is if you are inexperienced you don't know what to ask, where to look or what to avoid.

there are dogs and cats everywhere, the rescues are full.and not just in UK but global....so dogs must be pretty tough and healthy? and if a cross breed can survive etc with poor beginnings, surely a pedigree will fare better?

Its hard finding a litter too. Where I live in the middle of nowhere its very hard cos I have to search really hard for anything I may want.not just a pet. If you live where there are plenty litters, how do you choose if you are inexperienced etc?


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

simplysardonic said:


> And here lies the key issue- getting the message out to the public, in a place where the public will see & acknowledge it. It sounds like you're doing your best to get the message out there & seen by as many people as possible. Did you see the thread I posted earlier about the family who had been through a similar thing with their puppy? Here's a link in case it's of any use to you:
> Mum's warning after buying puppy which died after just eight days - Reading Post
> 
> I'm so very sorry you had to go through the sadness of losing your little pup


I will read it.
Thanks for the useful post.


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

lilythepink said:


> The problem is if you are inexperienced you don't know what to ask, where to look or what to avoid.
> 
> there are dogs and cats everywhere, the rescues are full.and not just in UK but global....so dogs must be pretty tough and healthy? and if a cross breed can survive etc with poor beginnings, surely a pedigree will fare better?
> 
> Its hard finding a litter too. Where I live in the middle of nowhere its very hard cos I have to search really hard for anything I may want.not just a pet. If you live where there are plenty litters, how do you choose if you are inexperienced etc?


Exactly my thoughts.

Thanks.

This part of this thread may interest you if you haven't read it:
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-bree...ssed-away-advice-needed-7.html#post1063354900


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

_But realistically, are people going to use the word 'reputable' in their searches. Yes, they probably should, but it's unlikely._

Simplysardonic, if after all the publicity on television and in newspapers, purchasers are not thinking 'reputable', then they're going to get what they're looking for, just someone producing puppies, NOT a reputable dog breeder. 
It's the publics' perception that's got to change.

If you Google, poorly puppy, bad breeder or any other random term, then you'll get enough information to realise that it's a minefield out there.

I don't book a new hotel or restaurant in a strange area without looking at Trip Advisor these days - so why do people see an advert and put a deposit down the next day rather than take more time to research and look for a puppy that they hope to live with for the next 12 years? Who knows.


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

Westy said:


> _But realistically, are people going to use the word 'reputable' in their searches. Yes, they probably should, but it's unlikely._
> 
> Simplysardonic, if after all the publicity on television and in newspapers, purchasers are not thinking 'reputable', then they're going to get what they're looking for, just someone producing puppies, NOT a reputable dog breeder.
> It's the publics' perception that's got to change.


Totally agree, public perception must change and isn't changing quickly enough.

Therefore, because public perception isn't changing quickly enough people with experience/awareness need to think critically to be proactive in engaging with people who are not inclined to run searches with words like 'reputable',the people who do not know the dangers that exist.

As I said here: http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-bree...ssed-away-advice-needed-7.html#post1063354900

Buyers need to be aware of the mine field they are about to navigate when purchasing a puppy.


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

rubypuppy said:


> You didn't actually specifically answer the question at all then. But never mind that.
> 
> But you can private message me and we can have a chat, I'll start it now. I think we're clearly on the same side but I don't think you realised how hurtful and in my opinion unconstructive parts of some of your comments were yesterday.
> 
> Thanks


But you don't want to hear what I have to say rubypuppy so there is no point in us talking.

Whilst not considering for a minute that I would consider Ruby's breeder IMO reputable, as I have already posted, Ruby's demise may well not be their responsibility.


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

Westy said:


> But you don't want to hear what I have to say rubypuppy so there is no point in us talking.


That is not true, I am sorry you feel this way.


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

*Buyers need to be aware of the mine field they are about to navigate when purchasing a puppy.*

As with any other aspect of life, when making a purchase in an area in which we have no knowledge, we all need to ask advice from those with more knowledge - it's buyer beware in everything we purchase. Why do people think that living animals are any different?

But as I keep saying, I'm not convinced that Ruby's short life is necessarily down to her breeders. You are cherry picking what I say and ignoring the bits that you don't want to hear............


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

Westy said:


> *rubypuppy - Buyers need to be aware of the mine field they are about to navigate when purchasing a puppy.*
> 
> As with any other apsects of life, when making a purchase in an area in which we have no knowledge, we all need to ask advice from those with more knowledge - it's buyer beware in everything we purchase. Why do people think that living animals are any different?


Totally agree with you again. People should ask, but the fact is, as you've said they don't.

But to try and stop the buyers who don't ask from becoming victims I am looking into ways personally to help them become engaged with the information they really should be aware of without them having to search for it.

As I mentioned I am doing this: 
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-bree...ssed-away-advice-needed-7.html#post1063354900


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Westy said:


> *
> 
> But as I keep saying, I'm not convinced that Ruby's short life is necessarily down to her breeders. You are cherry picking what I say and ignoring the bits that you don't want to hear............*


*

I have to agree with this, sorry which is why I said about the vaccinations, as I said last night if you plan to take action be prepared to have to defend why your vet, wormed, flea treated and vaccinated and gave medication to bind an already visibly sick puppy and a puppy who they also stated was too young to be away from it's Mother, this could be used against you and any case you chose to build.

I hope you do get people to learn from this, but sadly even when people are told that it's all wrong what they are doing the "cute" puppy and falling in love with that "cute" puppy overrides everything they are told is wrong with the situation, there are thread after thread of it here, they never believe things like this will happen until it happens to them.*


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

SusieRainbow said:


> I haven't responded to this thread before, but have followed it closely and read every post.
> First of all, sympathy in the loss of your poor little pup. It's obviously a very sad and difficult time for you and your family.
> Secondly , I fully understand What you are saying - when looking for an ethically bred pup how DO you know what questions to ask about testing, parentage, conditions etc ?
> When I was looking for my dog/puppy last year I had no idea about health testing and genetics, I was just looking for a nice little dog to keep us company , and hopefully a healthy one but not really expecting any guarantees on that.And I consider myself intelligent , resourceful and Google IS my best friend - I just had no idea what to look for.
> Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but not helping you at the moment. As you've said yourself , when you look for your next pup you will be fore-armed with all the information you've been given and hopefully not too hurt to accept the advice you've been offered. .


Marvellous, well said.

Thats what is motivating me at the moment to do the following: 
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-bree...ssed-away-advice-needed-7.html#post1063354900

Also thanks for your kind words.
Tom


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

Meezey said:


> I have to agree with this, sorry which is why I said about the vaccinations, as I said last night if you plan to take action be prepared to have to defend why your vet, wormed, flea treated and vaccinated and gave medication to bind an already visibly sick puppy and a puppy who they also stated was too young to be away from it's Mother, this could be used against you and any case you chose to build.
> 
> I hope you do get people to learn from this, but sadly even when people are told that it's all wrong what they are doing the "cute" puppy and falling in love with that "cute" puppy overrides everything they are told is wrong with the situation, there are thread after thread of it here, they never believe things like this will happen until it happens to them.


Thanks for the useful post, if it came to it, the vet would have to defend herself. I imagine she is fully aware that she may have to defend every action she takes whilst working.

And the second paragraph, I think to an extent that is true, but I guess we have to try and share stories and make sure we reach people to inform them.


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

*As I mentioned I am doing this:
Bad breeder, puppy passed away, advice needed!*

My posts, if blunt at times, have been written not only for you but to any other potential buyers who may read it later and hopefully learn by what they read - that's all we can do as caring dog lovers.

I have written a very long and tactfully I hope, post about why I think that Ruby's death may not be the responsibility of her breeder but you're blinkered by your grief and still not reading it.................. so I really will now leave this thread as I can help no more..


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

Westy said:


> *As I mentioned I am doing this:
> Bad breeder, puppy passed away, advice needed!*
> 
> My posts, if blunt at times, have been written not only for you but to any other potential buyers who may read it later and hopefully learn by what they read - that's all we can do as caring dog lovers.
> ...


Honestly, I thank you for your points of view.
Thank you.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

rubypuppy said:


> Thanks for the useful post, if it came to it, the vet would have to defend herself. I imagine she is fully aware that she may have to defend every action she takes whilst working.
> 
> And the second paragraph, I think to an extent that is true, but I guess we have to try and share stories and make sure we reach people to inform them.


We do try, but unfortunately there are also those who even though they know everything is wrong, still take the side of the "Puppy Purchaser", they can be told the situation is all wrong, that while they think they are "saving" that one puppy, and that's their main concern the one puppy they fall in love with sod the rest that are left, and the normal response from others it "well they already paid their deposit, they have already mated the bitch, they have already blah blah blah" I admit I get seriously angry about irresponsible breeders, BYB's, puppy farmers and brokers and people that buy from them ignoring all the signs, and sadly for you this is the reason why, what you are going through now, and the other puppies that have to go through this, because people think, " oh well it's already happened".

I really do hope that you can educate some people, and even if you save just one litter of puppies, or one other puppy good for you, I just wish things like this didn't have to happen before people did something...


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

Meezey said:


> I really do hope that you can educate some people, and even if you save just one litter of puppies, or one other puppy good for you, I just wish things like this didn't have to happen before people did something...


Thank you so much for your support.


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

Can i ask did this puppy come from a place in Wickford essex? as i know of someone who bought a poorly puppy from the same website


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

hazel pritchard said:


> Can i ask did this puppy come from a place in Wickford essex? as i know of someone who bought a poorly puppy from the same website


OP said the puppy was purchased in Trafford on a previous post.


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

oh sorry i missed that xxx


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

hazel pritchard said:


> oh sorry i missed that xxx


There's a LOT of posts easy to miss


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

rubypuppy said:


> You didn't actually specifically answer the question at all then. But never mind that.
> 
> But you can private message me and we can have a chat, I'll start it now. I think we're clearly on the same side *but I don't think you realised how hurtful *and in my opinion unconstructive parts of some of your comments were yesterday.
> 
> Thanks


I guess in the eyes of many, your hurt pride at it being pointed out the error of how you bought a puppy pales into insignificance compared to the suffering of this pup (and many others), when it is people like you who perpetuate this kind of breeding.

I wish you well in your mission, but those of us who have been around dogs for a while know that there is little that can or will be done to stop these breeders EXCEPT not buy them. If people didn't buy them they would stop breeding them.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

SusieRainbow said:


> I haven't responded to this thread before, but have followed it closely and read every post.
> First of all, sympathy in the loss of your poor little pup. It's obviously a very sad and difficult time for you and your family.
> Secondly , I fully understand What you are saying - when looking for an ethically bred pup how DO you know what questions to ask about testing, parentage, conditions etc ?
> When I was looking for my dog/puppy last year I had no idea about health testing and genetics, I was just looking for a nice little dog to keep us company , and hopefully a healthy one but not really expecting any guarantees on that.*And I consider myself intelligent , resourceful and Google IS my best friend - I just had no idea what to look for.*
> ...


A quick google search for 'buying a puppy' brings the kc guidelines at the top of the page - plenty of info in there.

Where to Buy a Dog, How to Choose a Breed & Care for Your Friend


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> I guess in the eyes of many, your hurt pride at it being pointed out the error of how you bought a puppy pales into insignificance compared to the suffering of this pup (and many others), when it is people like you who perpetuate this kind of breeding.
> 
> I wish you well in your mission, but those of us who have been around dogs for a while know that there is little that can or will be done to stop these breeders EXCEPT not buy them. If people didn't buy them they would stop breeding them.


I understand where you are coming from totally.

Thanks for the well wishes, I want to and will do my little bit to try and prevent other uninformed, unaware people (like we were) from purchasing from one of these breeders. As you say the only way it will stop is if people stop purchasing from them, people need to be more savvy. If you've had chance to read back a little, as I believe you have, I hope you will agree that what we plan to do regarding the blog is worthwhile.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Meezey said:


> I have to agree with this, sorry which is why I said about the vaccinations, as I said last night if you plan to take action be prepared to have to defend why your vet, wormed, flea treated and vaccinated and gave medication to bind an already* visibly sick puppy *and a puppy who they also stated was *too young to be away from it's Mother*, this could be used against you and any case you chose to build.
> 
> I hope you do get people to learn from this, but sadly even when people are told that it's all wrong what they are doing the "cute" puppy and falling in love with that "cute" puppy overrides everything they are told is wrong with the situation, there are thread after thread of it here, they never believe things like this will happen until it happens to them.


Appreciate that the vet's actions _may_ have been contributory - but the fact remains that there is a heartless and unethical breeder effectively "dumping"puppies that have little chance of survival, let alone health.

This alone needs to be addressed.


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> A quick google search for 'buying a puppy' brings the kc guidelines at the top of the page - plenty of info in there.
> 
> Where to Buy a Dog, How to Choose a Breed & Care for Your Friend


Unfortunately I think a lot of people literally do searches such as 'cockapoo puppy' or similar, unaware of the dangers that lie ahead.

I think for people like you who have been involved with animals for a long time it simply seems slightly ridiculous/hard to believe that new buyers could be unaware of problems that exist regarding breeders.

But I think that it is the truth (it was for us) that many people are blissfully unaware of what goes on out there regarding puppy's and the less reputable breeders.

Thanks!


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

I am very, very sorry for the loss of your little Ruby xx  xx

I can't imagine how awful this must all have been for you.

To be fair to Pets4Homes all their dog adverts carry this information:



> Please read the following advice before buying a new pet, you should also read our article on avoiding scams :
> 
> NEVER make the decision to get a dog or puppy on a whim. A dog is a lifetime commitment and a lot of thought should go in to it before making the decision.
> NEVER buy a new dog or puppy without being able to visit it at its home. If someone wants to meet you and makes excuses why you cant go to their home, just walk away and report it to us.
> ...


....... so the warnings are indeed there. Unforunately people prefer to look at the pics of the puppy though - which is what these 'breeders' count on.

My own Teddy-pup is a rescue. He is now 1 year old. His owner bought him and never saw the parents. Teddy was delivered to her door. She paid for a Pedigree Pomeranian pup - no paperwork, nothing. 3 days later she got fed up him 'crying and mouthing' etc and called a rescue up who took him in and got him treated etc. He was supposed to have been wormed - he hadn't. And as he has grown up he is very obviously _not_ a full Pedigree Pomeranian - it's very likely he's crossed with a Papillon.

The 'breeders'? They were contacted before the rescue and surprise, surprise - they didn't want to know! 

Sadly this is an all-too-common story. Where there is money to be made people will go on churning out puppies and puppy farms are now very aware that people are being made aware of their existence which is why dealers with nice homes and a cosy set-up are used as a 'front' to sell the puppies which have most likely been bred in awful conditions. 

I hope you will stay on this forum and again, I am so, so sorry for your loss xx


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

lostbear said:


> Appreciate that the vet's actions _may_ have been contributory - but the fact remains that there is a heartless and unethical breeder effectively "dumping"puppies that have little chance of survival, let alone health.
> 
> This alone needs to be addressed.


My point being, if someone is doing this for a living, if the OP is planning to take this further I just wanted to make them aware, this would be brought up.

Also I'd hardly say "dumping", if people insist on buy from these hell holes and lining their pocket, then they will continue, if something doesn't " look right" it's generally because it isn't.

It's easy to research good breeders, or buying the right puppy, not so easy when you want a puppy there and then and type in " puppy for sale in........" when people insist on keeping doing this, because they want a puppy and they want in NOW, these shower of shites will keep filling their crates with litter after litter.

I agree it should be addressed, and I'd be at the RSPCA's door next morning, given the information the Vet gave, there will be more puppies there, who are ill or going to families who ( I hope to god not ) will end up going through this also. Look how many times on this forum alone people go ahead with breeding, or buying a puppy even when ALL the warnings have been pointed out to them..

It makes me sad and it makes me angry.. How much more education needs to be out there? How do you get all these people to understand? Many won't want to listen because they want their puppy now..

FFS the security guard in my office, went an met someone in a carpark who handed over a puppy, it has Parvo, if people can't see that as "wrong" what chance do these puppies have...


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

_I'd be at the RSPCA's door next morning, given the information the Vet gave,_

If the pup is fed, watered and in 'reasonably' clean conditions, they wouldn't want to know - unless there were TV cameras present of course!

Cruelty has to be proved. Not up to reasonable standard isn't cruelty.

As a groomer I had a good relationship with my local RSPCA Inspector because they did consider it cruelty to neglect a dog's coat and so I worked with him a few times. But conditions that I considered unreasonable for a dog kept in was not of interest,


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Westy said:


> _I'd be at the RSPCA's door next morning, given the information the Vet gave,_
> 
> If the pup is fed, watered and in 'reasonably' clean conditions, they wouldn't want to know - unless there were TV cameras present of course!
> 
> ...


-Monday 18th November (this morning) the vet who had seen the puppy on each occasion rang to say the puppy had passed away. On arrival at the practice we politely informed the vet (a different one this time) that we would settle our balance with them without fuss if the vet who had treated our *puppy throughout the week would put in writing the words of concern she had about the puppy; specifically the condition it was in on Saturday 9th November and the fact she said it had been ill-treated* and should not have been taken from its mother. The vets colleague said this would not be a problem and that we should return on Wednesday 20th Nov.

I would be using the above to great advantage. If you believe there is a puppy farm or broker I'd be contacting the council and consumers direct, the next day..


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Council, Trading Standards, everything you can think of. Presumably you have the address of the residence you bought it from.

Councils CAN act if they believe puppies are being bred for profit only, i,e, not a one-off litter from family pets with the intention of keeping one, or show breeders who will breed occasionally to keep one back.

Profit only, as in breeding solely with the aim of selling for money is also something the tax man is becoming increasingly interested in.

There is also existing legislation to prevent unlicensed dealers - if animals are bought in and resold more than 48 hrs later, then a Pet Shop Licence is needed. Again, that's Trading Standards.

The experienced dealers already know this, so they either buy in and sell fast, or wait til they have had a few enquiries, then get in just a few, and aim to shift them on within the 48hrs.

As I said before, they will borrow dogs and claim that is the mother, even though you may not get to meet "her" personally, because if you did, you might realise she hasn't recently given birth and has no relationship with the puppies.

There will also be minimal or no paperwork - as you'd expect. A paper trail is not something these sellers want for obvious reasons. 

Compare that to a decent breeder - where you will get so much paperwork, feeding guides, data about both parents, photos.... often a contract, making sure you will care for the puppy and will return it to the breeder if you can't care for it any more, throughout its lifespan - maybe even DVDs of the litter growing up - an encyclopedia in fact. When I bred cats and small animals, new owners were given a thick file of information entitled "Owner's Manual".


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

I think the message about where you buy from and what to look for needs to definitely get across more.

I had someone contact me about puppies the other day, I contacted them to let them know that I didn't have any and wouldn't for a good while. The following day I decided to send them a rather large email stating what to look for and what to avoid when they go looking for their pup. The woman was very appreciative and hopefully she will get herself a good quality puppy.


Sorry for your loss.x


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I'm so sorry you have lost your puppy in such a dreadful way. It may be a lesson learned but a very harsh one indeed. My sympathies to you and sorrow that yet another puppy is the victim of money grabbing unscrupulous breeders - makes me so sad and angry that they take life so flippantly and put money above it. 
Run free little one. xx

Pets4Homes have voluntarily agreed with PAAG (pets advertising advisory group) to abide by a minimum standard in advertising, one of which is to not allow ads of animals too young to leave their parents. They need voluntary moderators to veiw their ads and check that these standards are abided by but don't have enough volunteers as yet and some ads will inevitably slip through the net. You need to inform them of this advertiser in whatever way you can and contacting PAAG would also be a good idea as they may be able to advise in some way. If you click on the standards link on their page it will give some insight as to what the minimum standards sites like Pets4Homes are trying to achieve with their advertisers. 
http://paag.org.uk

I'm also gobsmacked that your vet decided to vaccinate and advocate such a poorly puppy and would want answers in that area too. Personally I wouldn't use advocate on my 60kgs dogs let alone my little ones and they are adults, too full of chemicals and known to possibly have bad reactions in some dogs - far too risky when there are alternatives such as Drontal and a worm count. Add to that a vaccination, what was the vet thinking I wonder? a human wouldn't be vaccinated if in poor health so I just don't understand!

I hope you can spread the word about your experience, Dogs Today have a Facebook page if you are on FB and may like to hear of your experience. The more people that you can get this message across to the better. Good luck and once again I'm so sorry for your loss. x


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

rubypuppy said:


> ... please can we try to maintain the *objectivity* of this thread, by that I mean discussing
> ways we can take action against the breeder.


:idea:

_objectivity_: factual; unemotional; impartial; journalistic.

_objective_: goal; intention; desired outcome.

:aureola: I think it's the *objective* of the thread that U had in mind. :yesnod:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

rubypuppy said:


> ...I think that... many people are blissfully unaware of what goes on... re puppies & less-reputable breeders.


I'm sorry to be so blunt, but the necessary advice was directly *opposite* on the ad U linked - 
literally, on the same page. :blink: How much of ignorance is 'unaware', & how much is deliberate?

Given the list of warnings & suggested Qs for buyers, i'd say U should have been warned off well-before
U completed the transaction, & handed over the dosh - let alone took the pup home, & then to the vet.

Or did U go to the vet on the way home?... In any case, with the info literally at Ur fingertips,
& on the screen in front of U, there's not really any excuse - U ignored the text that wasn't interesting,
& focused on the advert & the photo, not the legitimate info & the cautionary advice. :nonod:

Yes, by all means, prosecute the seller - but don't claim U couldn't possibly have known the risks,
the correct Qs to ask, the paperwork that should have been shown [vet records, dam & sire pedigree,
all health screens on either, *eye certificates on both that are less than 12-mos old*, etc].

Being willfully blind isn't identical to having the wool pulled over one's eyes.
Buyers have responsibilities, too.
.
.


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## Kunakizz (Nov 25, 2012)

lilythepink said:


> The problem is if you are inexperienced you don't know what to ask, where to look or what to avoid.
> 
> there are dogs and cats everywhere, the rescues are full.and not just in UK but global....so dogs must be pretty tough and healthy? and if a cross breed can survive etc with poor beginnings, surely a pedigree will fare better?
> 
> Its hard finding a litter too. Where I live in the middle of nowhere its very hard cos I have to search really hard for anything I may want.not just a pet. If you live where there are plenty litters, how do you choose if you are inexperienced etc?


Lily, it's NOT hard to find a badly bred litter at all, as has been proved in this thread. Just because you live 'where there are plenty of litters' (?) wouldn't give any indication of quality either, just more choice. If you want a properly bred and hopefully healthy pup you should do your homework, contact breeders and be prepared to have to wait for said pup whilst accepting that you might also have to travel to the other end of the country if necessary. Reputable breeders will not let a sick pup go and they will also send the pup off with 4 weeks puppy insurance just for starters and will make themselves contactable for the life of the pup.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I think we need to take a step back here, yes there was advice on Pets4Homes, just as there is advice printed in the small ads in newspapers telling people there are plenty of dogs in rescue, make sure you see mum with pups etc, etc. But the initial message, that someone is willing to scam you to sell you a puppy, possibly a very ill puppy, isn't getting across, that's lost in the small print. 

Like Firedog, I respond to email enquiries to tell people that I haven't got pups, and won't have pups but am happy to help them find a good breeder who may have a litter due. I also list the pertinent points of how to find a *good* breeder, and yet it's not very often that I receive a reply. People are willing to gamble on the *good* nature of human beings, how can they possibly be lying about a living breathing cute puppy, and even more, how could they possibly sell me a poorly puppy that may die? They believe that papers don't matter, health tests weren't really needed etc, etc, it's easy to believe someone who seems more knowledgeable than you when they're sat there telling you these *facts*, and it's easy with hindsight to kick yourself - how many dogs on PF are from bybs? A large percentage I'd suggest, and some were told before, others found out afterwards. Of the ones told before they parted with their cash, they STILL went and bought that puppy from what they knew, was really, an unscrupulous breeder.

Anyway, after that ramble, which was really just that yes, we all know the small print is there, the information IS there, but how many of us put up IKEA shelving without the instructions (not that I buy stuff from IKEA these days), or buy a power drill and read the instructions? The vast majority of us don't bother with the small print bit, and believe what the sales person is telling us, which is one reason why I'd love to see small ads for pets disappear. If the only route for buying a pet was through one that informs the buyer in a way that doesn't make them read lots of small print that CAN'T be relevant to them, hopefully it would stop a lot more of this sort of thing happening. I can but dream


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

So sorry for your loss and I'm glad you are taking action over the breeder. Great advice from other posters and glad you are moving forward with this.

As a side note don't forget to come back to the forum in the future when your heartache and righteous anger are less. We can advise on how to find a reputable breeder if you choose to bring a dog into your life.

Again sorry for your loss.


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

OK folks I might be out of step with most here but whilst I don't think this is a reputable breeder, I'm not convinced that they are responsible for the demise of this puppy! And I think that encouraging this distressed owner to do anything other than talk to Trevor for advice is not helpful.

We all know that Vets know very little about breeding.  The chances of them knowing appropriate size for a cross bred puppy..............

This puppy was taken straight to the Vet after being taken from the only world that it had ever known. Most dogs have an elevated temperature just walking through the Vets' door!
A puppy is usually given a good few days in their new home to cope with the stress of moving from the breeder before being given a chemical cocktail to assault their little bodies. 
Just a car journey, or the change of drinking water can be enough to give the puppy diarrohea as well as change in food if the breeder didn't supply enough of what the pup's digestive system is used to and doesn't tell the owner not to change it for a while. It doesn't mean that the pup is sick - just that it's immature body can't cope with so many changes at the same time.

Then to bombard this stressed and immature body with chemicals.........

I'm not defending the breeder for replying to communications but apart from that, they've done what the majority of other puppy producers do, breed from 'pedigree' dogs with little knowledge and understanding.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Westy said:


> OK folks I might be out of step with most here but whilst I don't think this is a reputable breeder, I'm not convinced that they are responsible for the demise of this puppy! And I think that encouraging this distressed owner to do anything other than talk to Trevor for advice is not helpful.
> 
> We all know that Vets know very little about breeding.  The chances of them knowing appropriate size for a cross bred puppy..............
> 
> ...


I don't think you're out of step at all, I think it's a mixture of the pup already being poorly, very likely coming from a poor background, and then the vet probably thinking they were doing the right thing, but very likely making matters worse by bombarding the poor wee thing's system with huge amounts of medication.

That said, if the OP can get the the bottom of who the breeder is, as it seems very odd to just *disappear*, and highlight the issues surrounding this sort of sad story, because it's not uncommon, then hopefully it will save at least one more person from falling victim to similar circumstances. Even if they find they can't really get anywhere, stop this person, or even if the vet stonewalls them, it's not *just* the OP that's learnt something, there will be oodles of people reading who will hopefully have taken a few lessons on board


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

Thanks. 

I think that everything that needs to be said about finding a good breeder has already been said on this thread.

My concern now is to help the OP move in a more positive direction rather than dwell on the past, get their knickers in a twist and even worse, lead them on a wild goose chase. 

I've stated my case and will bail out - again!


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## Bryxy (Jun 6, 2013)

Westy said:


> OK folks I might be out of step with most here but whilst I don't think this is a reputable breeder, I'm not convinced that they are responsible for the demise of this puppy! And I think that encouraging this distressed owner to do anything other than talk to Trevor for advice is not helpful.
> 
> *We all know that Vets know very little about breeding*.  The chances of them knowing appropriate size for a cross bred puppy..............
> 
> ...


Let me correct that sweeping generalisation for you. We all know *most* vets know very little about breeding.


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

Feel free. We know that you're a Vet student.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Westy said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I think that everything that needs to be said about finding a good breeder has already been said on this thread.
> 
> My concern now is to help the OP move in a more positive direction rather than dwell on the past, get their knickers in a twist and even worse, lead them on a wild goose chase.


True, but maybe it's something they need to do, just to satisfy their own need to do *something* about what's happened. What you or I would do isn't necessarily the same as how someone else would want to react.


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

I agree SleepingLion but see them being encouraged by emotional responses rather than be allowed to take their own path at their own pace........


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

With regards to the vet it reminds me of this thread

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/335018-help-re-pup.html

Exactly the opposite way around to the original poster but the pup had the same mass of chemicals.

With regard to the message about dog breeders, I have to agree with others its not getting through.

Not once in the programs about dogs on main stream TV has there been a mention of how to purchase a healthy puppy. Wonder of dogs featured a litter of puppies from what appeared to be a back yard breeder who had pups for the "experience". Paul O'Grady never mentions health testing, bad breeders how to buy or rehome a healthy puppy. I know Pauls program is set at Battersea but not all rescues are good and information on dog breeding would cut the number of pups in rescue. Instead they too focus on cute puppies.

Many day time shows have dogs on them again no mention of how to source a healthy pup, no they just inspire people to want a dog.

There was a baby animals program recently again no mention of how to find a healthy pet. I could go on and on.

I know the information is out there on the web but its still not visible enough. Along with decent information on how long it actually takes to train a good family dog.

The pets 4 homes information is good but doesn't go far enough in my opinion.


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

To all who have posted...

Thanks for all the well wishes and condolences we have received for the passing of our little Ruby and for all of the useful information and advice. I think there is a wealth of information in amongst the posts in this thread for people to pick out.

I'm going to take a few steps back from this thread now because for us it has served the purpose for why we posted in the first instance. We now have a clear path to take.

The path we are taking:
-We are meeting the vet tonight to discuss what happened, not to confront her or anything of that nature, but just to ask questions. We will specifically ask about why the puppy was vaccinated and given the Advocate treatment as so many people have raised their concerns. We will also be asking the vet to put in writing, as a statement, the concerns she voiced around two hours after we collected the puppy, when we rightly or wrongly took the puppy to the vet based on our concerns about diarrhoea.

-We will continue creating our blog which will serve as a memory to the puppy but moreover, an emotional story featuring the events of this week and information about the place she came from, which maybe, just maybe will help someone and potentially help other animals in the future.

-Written to the PAAG.

-Drafted a letter to Council and RSPCA. We have been informed by people with their own insights/experiences that this may not be worthwhile but nevertheless, we are trying.

-Written to the breeder and sent it signed for, we asked for a refund and to be contacted within 7 days.

-Perhaps most importantly we've written to the solicitor who was suggested to us on this forum, depending on what he says we will decide what options, if any we have regarding pursuing the breeder and so on.

What have we learnt?
-People who do what we did perpetuate the problem of dogs coming from less reputable breeders by keeping them in business.
-How to choose a breeder in a much more responsible manner, what we should be looking out for and even where to find a good breeder.
-Even though a vast collection of information is only a few taps of the keyboard away from new/inexperienced buyers many of them are not searching for it. 
-A few people have in effect pointed out that we have no leg to stand on for claiming ignorance given that we used Pets4Homes and they place a list of buyer beware style tips on each ad. I can understand how this can frustrate people and it is a strange one for me to explain. I guess honestly, the problem is many people (including us) will sometimes ignore warning text until something bad happens to them or someone they know of, that applies not just to buying puppies.

So moving on from here, regardless of whether we go after the breeder or take any further action with them, what we will definitely try to do is our little bit to help address the people who are likely to behave how we did, the people who perpetuate the problem.

As I said above, people show an ability to ignore warning text until something bad happens to them or someone they know of and I personally think a good method to help the situation is to put out real life stories to give the warning text some context, yes it has been done before, I know, but I don't think it can be done enough. That is what we will be doing with the blog and the FB ad, reaching people who are not necessarily searching for the story.

Thanks to all who make this forum worth using. We will stick around.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

rubypuppy said:


> To all who have posted...
> 
> Thanks for all the well wishes and condolences we have received for the passing of our little Ruby and for all of the useful information and advice. I think there is a wealth of information in amongst the posts in this thread for people to pick out.
> 
> ...


Just wanted to wish you luck in your quest. Also ( and I don't mean to sound patronosing or condescending in the least ) congratulations on the dignified manner in which you have received the advice and criticism offered on this thread.
We look forward to hearing from you in happier circumstances and will be interested to hear the outcome of this situation.
All the best ! xx


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

rubypuppy said:


> As stated, selling a puppy that in a vets opinion was not ready for homing.
> Breeding a puppy in an outhouse, take your pick really.
> 
> We're not hiding the fact that now, in hindsight we realise alarm bells should have been ringing. But the fact is, we were a little naif and fell in love with the puppy and wanted to give it a good home for many, many years. We were a typical victim but make no mistake, we were the VICTIM. And of course, it goes without saying, the animal was indeed also a victim.
> ...


I haven't read the entire thread, so please excuse if the following has already been discussed later on.

I genuinly feel for you, so please don't deduce that I am unsympathetic. It is a deeply upsetting, tragic experience.

But I don't concur that you were the "naive victim". Forgive me, but whilst the breeder may have been irresponsible, the vet may not have been on the ball - what about your responsability in all is? To illustrate, if you have a car crash when driving in France, because you drive on the wrong side of the road doesn't make you a naive victim either. It's no good claiming that you didn't know that other countries drive on the other side of the road, and that it is all so unfair and unjust that they do....it is YOUR job, as a responsible adult, to supposed to know. To educate yourself before you set off.

The only good thing in that event is that it would teach an invaluable life lesson - be informed and look before you leap.

And it is no different here. To buy a sick puppy from the internet and then lay the blame squarely at everyone elses feet whilst calling yourself a "victim" isn't a particularly enlightened thing to do. My advice would be to chalk it up as an invaluable life lesson, learn from it, and move on.

Of course any decent person breeding dogs would refund your money given the circumstances. But for YOUR sake and sanity, please consider very carefully whether you really want to get embroiled in a long-winded, expensive, exhaustive combat with your pup's breeder. If they justifiably claim that you were happy to select and pay for one of their pups which seemed perfectly alright at the time to them AND you, what are you going to say ?

Personally, I am not entirely sure about the applicability of the sale of goods act ( which may well apply, I really don't know). Dog and humans are living entities, not machines, and living entities can get sick. Sometimes terminally sick. But unless you can PROVE at the breeder knowingly sold you a terminally ill pup I think you are on shakey ground. This could easily turn into you blaming and seeking recourse from the breeder, the breeder then blames the vet...or you...the vet isn't going to be thrilled by a suggestion of administering an ill timed injection to a sick pup and will go into professional defense mode.....and at the end of all this soul crushing entanglement and exchange your pup will still be dead and you out of pocket.

I mean well - move on. live and learn. You do better next time. And you weren't a victim.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

SusieRainbow said:


> Just wanted to wish you luck in your quest. Also ( and I don't mean to sound patronosing or condescending in the least ) congratulations on the dignified manner in which you have received the advice and criticism offered on this thread.
> We look forward to hearing from you in happier circumstances and will be interested to hear the outcome of this situation.
> All the best ! xx


I agree, we've often given advice to other newbies in the past and they've never come back because they've listened to good advice they don't want to hear or whatever.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

To be honest I think many people do find the advice before they buy a puppy. I personally decided I wanted a border collie, typed border collie in google, the first thing that popped up was wikipaedia which discusses various potential health problems and links to the ISDS and KC, I could then do more research from there, because I was interested to find out and I can't be the only one. 

Type cockapoo into google, the first thing you get is wikipaedia, about the second or third line down it says: 

"Cockapoos are one of the mixed breed dogs most susceptible to be bred by puppy farms or unscrupulous amateur breeders looking to maximise profit. Potential owners should carefully research where they are purchasing their puppy from in order not to support this industry."

From there are links to a cockapoo club and puppylove campaigns against puppy farms. 

The information is easy to access if a person looks for it. If they don't, it doesn't matter if it's printed on a naked lady who jumps up and down in front of your car on the way to the puppy farm. She'd just be an idiot getting in the way and who needs arresting. ut:

People have stood with placards outside puppy farm shops and people have still walked past to buy their puppy farmed puppies.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

I did just that when looking for potential breeds. Not being rude, Rubypuppy, but pets4homes and similar ads like that I always avoid.


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I haven't read the entire thread, so please excuse if the following has already been discussed later on.


It's a massive thread but your post shows you must have missed some important parts.



Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I don't concur that you were the "naive victim". Forgive me, but whilst the breeder may have been irresponsible, the vet may not have been on the ball - what about your responsability in all is?


Many, many times now in this thread I have discussed the fact that I realise we were not responsible buyers and I acknowledged that our actions have allowed the problem to perpetuate.



Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Personally, I am not entirely sure about the applicability of the sale of goods act ( which may well apply, I really don't know). Dog and humans are living entities, not machines, and living entities can get sick. Sometimes terminally sick. But unless you can PROVE at the breeder knowingly sold you a terminally ill pup I think you are on shakey ground. This could easily turn into you blaming and seeking recourse from the breeder, the breeder then blames the vet...or you...the vet isn't going to be thrilled by a suggestion of administering an ill timed injection to a sick pup and will go into professional defense mode.....and at the end of all this soul crushing entanglement and exchange your pup will still be dead and you out of pocket.


http://paag.org.uk/buying-a-pet/report/ This may interest you.

Our Solicitor is advising us on this but thanks for your concerns, we're still weighing up our options.

Thanks for your concerns I understand you mean well. Please read my post at 10:57 to understand better what I have learnt etc.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Elles said:


> To be honest I think many people do find the advice before they buy a puppy. I personally decided I wanted a border collie, typed border collie in google, the first thing that popped up was wikipaedia which discusses various potential health problems and links to the ISDS and KC, I could then do more research from there, because I was interested to find out and I can't be the only one.
> 
> Type cockapoo into google, the first thing you get is wikipaedia, about the second or third line down it says:
> 
> ...


I totally agree, if someone wants that "cute puppy" NOW, then there is little to be said and done because they will still carry on regardless, and even unfortunate stories like this will do little, because people think " this will never happen to us", hence why puppy farmers and brokers do such a quick trade, the draw of the cute puppy and "falling in love with puppy" means more than the welfare of all the other dogs that will fill that one puppies place  Unfortunately puppies will have to lose their lives before owners will wake up to how wrong what they are doing is..... Not something I'm willing to sit and let happen hence I get so passionate in a lot threads about breeding and puppies from BYB, puppy farms and brokers makes me so bloody angry and so sad, the victims in all this are the poor bitches that are bred back to back kept in shocking conditions and only get enough care to keep them alive and just well enough to pump out more puppies and the puppies themselves :crying:


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

For OP:

What to do if you've bought an ill pet |


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## rubypuppy (Nov 18, 2013)

Meezey said:


> For OP:
> 
> What to do if youve bought an ill pet |


Already done, but thank you none the less.
Tom


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

COCKERPOOS FOR 5* HOMES | Smethwick, West Midlands | Pets4Homes

£1000 ?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elles said:


> To be honest I think many people do find the advice before they buy a puppy. I personally decided I wanted a border collie, typed border collie in google, the first thing that popped up was wikipaedia which discusses various potential health problems and links to the ISDS and KC, I could then do more research from there, because I was interested to find out and I can't be the only one.
> 
> Type cockapoo into google, the first thing you get is wikipaedia, about the second or third line down it says:
> 
> ...


But many potential puppy buyers won't type in border collie, or cockapoo, they will type in border collie puppy, possibly with 'for sale' at the end. All that does, is bring up adverts, but how are they to know if they left of the last few words there might be a world of information that doesn't come up. And of course, by the time they've read the advert, seen the photos, why else would the vast majority of potential puppy buyers google for anything else?


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

SusieRainbow said:


> Just wanted to wish you luck in your quest. Also ( and I don't mean to sound patronosing or condescending in the least ) congratulations on the dignified manner in which you have received the advice and criticism offered on this thread.
> We look forward to hearing from you in happier circumstances and will be interested to hear the outcome of this situation.
> All the best ! xx


I totally agree with the above post, beautifully put SuzieRainbow.

Also to Rubypuppy well done on not just trying to sort out the breeder but in also attempting to educate others about your experience. If you manage to educate others little Ruby puppy's life has been worthwhile. If every person caught in this situation attempted to do the same perhaps the message would get through.

As for not reading the warnings to be honest I think they aren't put in a strong enough manner to ring warning bells for the inexperienced.

Take care, thank you for the lovely pictures of Ruby and her resting spot, may she run free at Rainbow bridge.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> But many potential puppy buyers won't type in border collie, or cockapoo, they will type in border collie puppy, possibly with 'for sale' at the end. All that does, is bring up adverts, but how are they to know if they left of the last few words there might be a world of information that doesn't come up. And of course, by the time they've read the advert, seen the photos, why else would the vast majority of potential puppy buyers google for anything else?


Because for the likes of Pet4homes that warning information is RIGHT next to the advert, to read the full advert the warning are right next to it, you'd have to have really bad eyesight to miss the *BOLD* capital letters help us stop puppy farming, and the warnings they gave next to it.. 
** Champagne Cockapoos ** | Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk | Pets4Homes

Again it's not about the information not being there it's people choosing to ignore it a lot of the time, which is why it's frustrating..


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Picklelily said:


> As for not reading the warnings to be honest I think they aren't put in a strong enough manner to ring warning bells for the inexperienced.
> 
> .


Puppy Farms - How and why to avoid buying a farmed puppy | Pets4Homes

A seller that regularly offers pedigree puppies for sale without any formal breed paperwork or certification. Some farmed puppies, however, will be offered for sale with Kennel Club registration, and so Kennel Club registration should not be taken as a sure-fire indication that a puppy has not been farmed.

Premises that contain a lot of outbuildings, temporary accommodation such as caravans and sheds, or closed off rooms that appear to have a lot of activity going on around them.

A seller that quickly offers an alternative puppy or litter to view if you find the one that you have gone to see is unsuitable.

A seller offering multiple different breeds and types of puppies for sale.

Puppies shown with a very young dam.

Puppies being shown to you one at a time, or without the dam or littermates present.

The seller or breeder having only a superficial knowledge of the puppies they own or the breed in question.

A seller or breeder who appears uninterested in you; responsible breeders will wish to assess you and your knowledge and circumstances as deeply as you will want to assess theirs. If the seller you are visiting does not appear concerned about this, consider it a red flag.

Puppies that are caged or crated when shown to you.

A dam that does not appear to recognise or have bonded with their owner, and does not recognise their name. Few puppy farm dams and sires are genuinely named at all, although the seller may refer to the dam by a name in order to perpetuate the illusion of being a responsible, caring breeder.

What more warning can they give


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

I also with Rubypuppy well and hope you get some satisfaction In your quest for answers
I think the OP has been very dignifird in their posts and this thread as not turned into a slanging match,they realise the mistakes they have made, so no point in going over it all again, and they have taken everything on board
Good luck and please keep us updated on the progess you make


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

Meezey said:


> Puppy Farms - How and why to avoid buying a farmed puppy | Pets4Homes
> 
> A seller that regularly offers pedigree puppies for sale without any formal breed paperwork or certification. Some farmed puppies, however, will be offered for sale with Kennel Club registration, and so Kennel Club registration should not be taken as a sure-fire indication that a puppy has not been farmed.
> 
> ...


Lets hope Pets4homes stop taking adverts from puppy farms very soon!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Meezey said:


> Because for the likes of Pet4homes that warning information is RIGHT next to the advert, to read the full advert the warning are right next to it, you'd have to have really bad eyesight to miss the *BOLD* capital letters help us stop puppy farming, and the warnings they gave next to it..
> ** Champagne Cockapoos ** | Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk | Pets4Homes
> 
> Again it's not about the information not being there it's people choosing to ignore it a lot of the time, which is why it's frustrating..


Yep, but then I've bought plenty of stuff where people have told me afterwards 'why on earth did you buy THAT?' I could easily have stumbled onto a byb with Indie, there wasn't as much internet info out there at the time, and I took a personal recommendation from someone to look on one of the ad websites. As it turned out, the person I managed to get in touch with, didn't have any puppies, but did have a litter planned, and explained the health testing to me which I knew nothing about.

So when posts come up like this, I just think how easily that could have been me, and how lucky I was that through a complete fluke, I managed to get in touch with a good breeder when I was looking for my first pup.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

jaycee05 said:


> I also with Rubypuppy well and hope you get some satisfaction In your quest for answers
> I think the OP has been very dignifird in their posts and this thread as not turned into a slanging match,they realise the mistakes they have made, so no point in going over it all again, and they have taken everything on board
> Good luck and please keep us updated on the progess you make


No one is, it's a conversation not directed at OP, but in general to people who question that the information is not easy to find and not easy to understand. I've not once addressed any of this to the OP.

Well aware OP has taken stuff on board.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Yep, but then I've bought plenty of stuff where people have told me afterwards 'why on earth did you buy THAT?' I could easily have stumbled onto a byb with Indie, there wasn't as much internet info out there at the time, and I took a personal recommendation from someone to look on one of the ad websites. As it turned out, the person I managed to get in touch with, didn't have any puppies, but did have a litter planned, and explained the health testing to me which I knew nothing about.
> 
> So when posts come up like this, I just think how easily that could have been me, and how lucky I was that through a complete fluke, I managed to get in touch with a good breeder when I was looking for my first pup.


I do get it, but I really struggle with people who say it's hard to find and read, and this is not direct at OP not to upset some posters. The internet is FULL of information it's all over it every where you look even for Pet4Homes getting a kicking all the time about their advertising ( not a site I'd ever look at in general) they have a scary amount of information I mean 100's of pages of articles about animals care, even stuff on ED and HD I was really surprised at that, it really is a case of you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
Pet Advice Articles and Information | Pets4Homes
That's what so frustrating, there should be no excuse for this kind of tragedy, there shouldn't but people get blinded by the cute puppy and ignore all the advise, even stuff like this won't stop people because they don't think it will happen to them.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Meezey said:


> I do get it, but I really struggle with people who say it's hard to find and read, and this is not direct at OP not to upset some posters. The internet is FULL of information it's all over it every where you look even for Pet4Homes getting a kicking all the time about their advertising ( not a site I'd ever look at in general) they have a scary amount of information I mean 100's of pages of articles about animals care, even stuff on ED and HD I was really surprised at that, it really is a case of you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
> Pet Advice Articles and Information | Pets4Homes
> That's what so frustrating, there should be no excuse for this kind of tragedy, there shouldn't but people get blinded by the cute puppy and ignore all the advise, even stuff like this won't stop people because they don't think it will happen to them.


Yep, completely agree, but people just don't realise what a mine field it is buying a puppy, it's so easy to see with hind sight, and with a small bit of knowledge about dogs. But until you have that *extra* bit of knowledge, or unless you hang about on sites like this, the vast majority of people wouldn't think twice about looking on places like Pets4Homes and assuming they would be *safe* buying a pup from there, despite the warnings. It's like the puppy farmers who actually state on their own websites, beware of puppy farmers, how many people must be buying from them?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

3dogs2cats said:


> Let's hope Pets-4-Homes stop taking adverts from puppy farms very soon!


Even if they could winnow them out - what about BYBs?

How do U distinguish a hobby-breeder who does health-screen, from a casual owner who breeds once or twice?

How do U cut out the profit-minded or sideline-cash folks, from those breeding a good bitch for a one-time
litter?

It would take a *huge* amount of time, effort, & money to promote only 'good' breeders,
even in the minimal sense of clean environs, in the home, healthy dam, well-fed, & well-socialized,
plus habituated to the sounds, sights, etc, of a home --- & that's totally ignoring health-tests, whether
they are dog-generic or breed-specific or type-specific. I'm only talking about decent husbandry:
housing, adequate food amounts & decent nutrition, clean space, warm in cold / cooled in warm weather, 
safe from injury [no holes in floors, no nails to wound, no wire floors, etc] -- minimal standards.

Anything beyond that would be very, very difficult to police. :nonod: That's why IMO breed-clubs should
do more to police their own ranks: establish minimal tests which are mandatory or U're out, revoke
the registries of dogs who are bred earlier than 12-MO no matter which gender, PROMOTE breeders who
delay first-breeding until a minimum of 24-MO, etc.

Obviously, that wouldn't cover cross-bred pups, but we need to begin somewhere, & breed-clubs 
are IMO a good place to begin. The members are - or ought to be - deeply devoted to the future well-being
& health of "our" special breed, & that should fuel a desire to protect their dogs as individuals, & their breed
as a whole, for the future.
.
.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

3dogs2cats said:


> Lets hope Pets4homes stop taking adverts from puppy farms very soon!


That's why they are now part of PAAG I believe so they have people who moderate it and point them out to Pets4Homes to remove and ban.


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> Even if they could winnow them out - what about BYBs?
> 
> How do U distinguish a hobby-breeder who does health-screen, from a casual owner who breeds once or twice?
> 
> ...


Champdogs have tried and out of almost 200 breeders listed in my breed, there are only 4 that I would recommend to puppy buyers. 

It's got to be buyer beware and ask people in the breed who know. 
I agree that breed clubs (not all brilliant) are a good place to start.


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## Cocoscaninecuts (Nov 19, 2013)

Another good idea is when they give you a contact number, google it and if you see various breeds advertised and regular litters then you may want to look more closely.

Good luck and keep us posted RP


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Westy said:


> Champdogs have tried and out of almost 200 breeders listed in my breed, there are only 4 that I would recommend to puppy buyers.


See now here a weird thing about Champdogs, if you breed with a say Rottweiler with a Elbow score of 2 or above, then they won't let you advertise BUT if you have no score you can..


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> Anything beyond that would be very, very difficult to police. :nonod: That's why IMO breed-clubs should
> do more to police their own ranks: establish minimal tests which are mandatory or U're out, revoke
> the registries of dogs who are bred earlier than 12-MO no matter which gender, PROMOTE breeders who
> delay first-breeding until a minimum of 24-MO, etc.
> ...


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Meezey said:


> See now here a weird thing about Champdogs, if you breed with a say Rottweiler with a EB score of 2 or above, then they won't let you advertise BUT if you have no score you can..


It's still a lot better than anything else out there.

Another idea might be Puppy Mentors, who will find you the ideal puppy, for a small fee. In some ways the Breed Clubs already do this - if you call up the clubs for a chat they will point you to various breeders (though politics does sometimes get in the way).

With the experience I have had over the years, plus being heavily involved in certain clubs & societies, I would always approach the Breed Club first. As I did over 20 years ago when I started getting interested in Belgian Shepherds. In pre-internet days, that was the ONLY way to source puppies and get first-hand information and advice. And yes, there were puppy farmers around, but not as many. You could spot them immediately, as they were the ones who advertised in local papers offering lots of breeds all ready to go.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Westy said:


> Champdogs have tried and out of almost 200 breeders listed in my breed, there are only 4 that I would recommend to puppy buyers.
> 
> It's got to be buyer beware and ask people in the breed who know.
> I agree that breed clubs (not all brilliant) are a good place to start.





Meezey said:


> See now here a weird thing about Champdogs, if you breed with a say Rottweiler with a Elbow score of 2 or above, then they won't let you advertise BUT if you have no score you can..


Yep, although I don't agree with breeding from high scores/grades generally, at least those people have bothered to test!

And yep, there seem to be a lot of breeders on CD, it's certainly not a guarantee of quality, although definitely a step up from a lot of other websites listing breeders/pups/stud dogs.


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Meezey said:


> Puppy Farms - How and why to avoid buying a farmed puppy | Pets4Homes
> 
> A seller that regularly offers pedigree puppies for sale without any formal breed paperwork or certification. Some farmed puppies, however, will be offered for sale with Kennel Club registration, and so Kennel Club registration should not be taken as a sure-fire indication that a puppy has not been farmed.
> 
> ...


Noticing the statement depends a lot upon your internet site usage. I use sites that use that right hand side of the screen for advertising targeted at me I have learned by experience to ignore that side.
Much of the lettering is the same size, font and colour as the advert for the puppy. Ideally the warning should come on before you can access the adverts.

At worst it should be in an alternate font and colour rather than blending in as it does at the moment.

I appreciate they are trying but so many are oblivious to the dark world of puppy buying. As I said before the media could do so much more to inform through television and newspapers.

I think one of the biggest issues is within the human psyche people believe those involved with nice animals are nice themselves. Sadly its not true but we all need to push that message.

Everyone on this site wants this to stop, we need to work together to help get people to read that message.

Discussions like this help.

Edit: Just to add I don't think we will really sort the issue until there are stronger controls on who can breed a dog or cat for that matter, But then they will just move into reptiles if they aren't there already!


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

When I was first searching for a puppy (a GSD) in 1985 I waked away after paying my deposit as things just didn't seem right. I ended up with a lovely English Setter - the breeder and I exchange Christmas cards to this day. 

I got my Great Dane from just down the road. He lived to 11 - a good age for the breed. 

I travelled miles to get my cocker Spaniel - should have been put off as his kennel name was Whingebucket - and he certainly lived up to his name! Maybe he should have lived longer, but he lived to 12. 

Maybe I should have asked more when I got Bess. But the breeders wouldn't have known the answers. Some health tests had been done, but not hips. Bess's scores are, however, good. 

I think I'm an intelligent person. But obviously I now know one hell of a lot more than I did even 2 years ago. 

Yes, puppy buying is 'buyer beware'. But you need to know what questions to ask in the first place!!


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Picklelily said:


> But then they will just move into reptiles if they aren't there already!


That's an interesting comment. I know where you're coming from.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

BessieDog said:


> I think I'm an intelligent person. But obviously I now know one hell of a lot more than I did even 2 years ago.


I hate the way it's all going. 10-15 or so years ago, if you were switched on about a certain species or breed, contacting Breed Clubs or the society looking after that animal species, in pre internet days, was what you did.

Phone calls, proper written letter even.... and that applied to specialised rabbit breeds, small rodents, cats, all of them. I did all of that, and more back in the day.

It's just too easy now. And there is no real focus, geared towards guiding people to the breed experts/advice/ guidance that you used to get even 10 years ago. It's all about people breeding for money. It's a mess.

If you don't head towards breed rescue or the breed societies, you're at the mercy of the pimping moneygrabbers who now outnumber the ethical breeders.

Maybe we should be looking at bumping up breed clubs and putting some money into their hands, to allow them to promote the right thing.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Yep, although I don't agree with breeding from high scores/grades generally, at least those people have bothered to test!
> 
> And yep, there seem to be a lot of breeders on CD, it's certainly not a guarantee of quality, although definitely a step up from a lot of other websites listing breeders/pups/stud dogs.


I thought that its meant to be one above the other sites but a lot don't health test on there 



Meezey said:


> See now here a weird thing about Champdogs, if you breed with a say Rottweiler with a Elbow score of 2 or above, then they won't let you advertise BUT if you have no score you can..


That's true a lot of cavaliers on there and it normally says only one parent tested or neither 

Sorry to hear about your pup OP  Great advice given, good luck.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Taylorbaby said:


> I thought that its meant to be one above the other sites but a lot don't health test on there
> 
> That's true a lot of cavaliers on there and it normally says only one parent tested or neither
> 
> Sorry to hear about your pup OP  Great advice given, good luck.


I think it is a lot better than other sites tbh, but there are still breeders on there who don't health test, and yet there are those who do, as pointed out by Meezy, who then aren't allowed to advertise as the scores/grades are deemed unacceptable. I suspect if there was a blanket ban on litters with no health tests usage would drop substantially unfortunately.


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

How awful, I don't have any advice sorry.

I did exactly the same as you with my dog, saw an advert telephoned picked him up the same evening. He was under veterinary care for almost a year. We were lucky he has survived but we are regularly at the vets with him for one thing or another.

Initially I tried to contact his breeder because when he was very ill he wasn't eating, I thought they could offer some advice - no response, I wrote to them too, no response.


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

_ I suspect if there was a blanket ban on litters with no health tests usage would drop substantially unfortunately._

Income is what it's all about! :sad:

Although Breed Clubs are mentioned all over the Kennel Club sites and my breed for instance must have about 12 all over the country, most puppy buyers are unaware of their existence. I suspect that in the excitement of looking for something we want, we all only see/read the bits that we want to see.........................

I have learned to research things thoroughly on the net when I'm looking in a new direction for anything these days.

Maybe when some time has passed Ruby's owners would be the people to give us ideas about new publicity that might have worked for them. :thumbsup:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Westy said:


> _ I suspect if there was a blanket ban on litters with no health tests usage would drop substantially unfortunately._
> 
> *Income is what it's all about!* :sad:
> 
> ...


But they need that income otherwise they wouldn't exist, and let's face it, they are *still* better and more informative than the majority of websites offering pups/stud dogs etc. So you can't begrudge them making enough money to function, it's just a shame that perhaps they can't tier the system, so that those who health test get a discount perhaps??


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## hackertime (Oct 12, 2013)

We have recently chosen our new pup ,we have looked around contacted people for over a year now ,out of sheer desperation i posted a thread on here and have been given the help i needed.But before we even contacted the owner i sat and searched for every bit of info i could even down to going onto to google street view to check the address out !, if i couldnt find it i came back on here and asked again . I did not realise the minefield that went with choosing a pup and can understand how people can be duped i honestly can say ( and not in a bad way ) that i have put more thought and research into this pup than i did when i had my kids . I feel so sorry for you your family and the pup itself .we are all so excited to bring him home this weekend and cant begin to think how we would cope in your situation .


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

There's profit and profit - just talking about my breed alone because that's what I know most about - which is not one of the most popular, brings in over £6000 a year - so you could x 100 to add all the others plus advertising and that's a lot of money for prospective low overheads.

I have no problem with anyone making a profit - everyone has to live - but to set yourself up to be better than the others to increase revenue and then only chip at the tip of a huge iceberg, to me makes them no better than the others who just make money....................... 

Our Breed Clubs aren't perfect either, but generally people who belong to them have a genuine interest and involvement in the breed.

There is so much more to being an ethical breeder than just doing a few health tests. It's start but shouldn't be seen as accreditation, just as JUST Kennel Club registration isn't a guarantee.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> But they need that income otherwise they wouldn't exist, and let's face it, they are *still* better and more informative than the majority of websites offering pups/stud dogs etc. So you can't begrudge them making enough money to function, it's just a shame that perhaps they can't tier the system, so that those who health test get a discount perhaps??


Not sure I entirely agree with you there SL.

I think that it is possible to be profitable whilst still be extremely discerning in terms of who can or can't advertise pets for sale.

Because what you may lose in revenue from one source, you will likely make up, or even exceed, in attracting advertisements and sponsors from other sourcers who currently DON'T want to be affiliated with them.

Also, health testing a dog to the hilt doesn't necessarily equate to responsible breeding. What's the point if the dog has exemplary hips & elbows, a myriad of other clear health tests AND is a champion several times over.....but at the same time is unable to get along with other dogs or is iffy with people? It isn't a dog worth having.

Which is why on my breed ( Bernese) forum I sound like a broken record to PPO's - carefully look at the parents..carefully look at the parents....carefully look at the parents...observe the puppy...observe the puppy


That aside, I think it's a pity that we don't follow other European countries where it is mandatory ( as per breed club regulation) that all pups get a full veterinary health check before they leave the breeder. Vet comes to breeders house - thus no exposure to dangerous viruses in vet practice for vulnerable babes - examines all pups, documents any problems ( e.g ectropian, undescended testicles, underbite, etc) or absence of problems, gives them their first jab and microchips them. A win- win situation for breeder, new owner and pup. We really ought to implement the same.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Not sure I entirely agree with you there SL.
> 
> I think that it is possible to be profitable whilst still be extremely discerning in terms of who can or can't advertise pets for sale.
> 
> ...


Apparently, for ABS members, it will be mandatory to vaccinate/microchip pups before they leave for new homes. As a recent member, just one year, I'm now wondering whether it's worth bothering renewing. Although I very much agree with traceability of pups, I personally don't want to vaccinate pups before they go to new homes, only for new owners to find out they need to restart vaccinations, or at least the vet advises that's what they have to do.

I think the scheme already allows for veterinary checks in the wording of the contract, so we are getting there.

And you can disagree with me  but I still think CD is one of the best, if not the best, website for finding *good* breeders. Yes, you still have to sift through the chaff, but there are more good breeders on there than on any of the freebie websites. I'd rather pay to be a member of CD than carry on with being an ABS member the way that's going


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

I'm very sorry for your loss - as to what action you can take against the breeder - it depends on whether they were breeding as "part of a business" - i.e. are they a licensed breeder. 

Having said that - there was a couple of notes in your events of what happened that would have me concerned- why was the puppy given Advocate 3 days after being wormed?

There are quite strict guidelines on the use of Advocate and other wormers - sometimes it cannot be given for at least a week after the previous wormers - the other way around it can be as long as month.

Also - why on earth was a vet vaccinating a poorly pup? one of the purposes of going to the vets for vaccines is they give it a full health check - there are very rare instances where you give vaccines when a dog (or human) is exhibiting health problems. 

Unless you know the facts and can prove the age was wrong (if a licensed breeder they were breaking the law allowing the pups to leave before 8 weeks) and also that these health problems have arisen solely as a result of the breeders actions - then it's going to be very difficult to prove responsibility.


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

_ Yes, you still have to sift through the chaff_

We might be able to do that with our experience, but a puppy buyer, and the average family only buys a new puppy once in 15 years, doesn't have the knowledge to do that and so they will be lulled into a false sense of security, just like they think about Kennel Club registration.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Apparently, for ABS members, it will be mandatory to vaccinate/microchip pups before they leave for new homes. As a recent member, just one year, I'm now wondering whether it's worth bothering renewing. Although I very much agree with traceability of pups, I personally don't want to vaccinate pups before they go to new homes, only for new owners to find out they need to restart vaccinations, or at least the vet advises that's what they have to do.
> 
> I think the scheme already allows for veterinary checks in the wording of the contract, so we are getting there.
> 
> And you can disagree with me  but I still think CD is one of the best, if not the best, website for finding *good* breeders. Yes, you still have to sift through the chaff, but there are more good breeders on there than on any of the freebie websites. I'd rather pay to be a member of CD than carry on with being an ABS member the way that's going


Cian breeder is not a member of ABS, because they are not including certain tests, so for her there is little point, the requirements to be on the ABS are to low, for Rottweilers they have hip scores and mandatory, that's it.. She hip scores, elbow scores, does DNA, heart test, eye test and temp test etc, so out of the 100's of assured breeders in my bred, I would use one, and the other isn't even on there.. Like I said thankfully the breed clubs are lobby for mandatory requirements to be added, but again, it's no guarantee you'll pick and ethical breeder, that you can only do with A LOT of research and waiting sometime times years rather than days or months for your puppy, how many people are going to wait that long, most can't wait a few days  CD are the best of a rotten bunch I'm sorry to say


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Meezey said:


> Cian breeder is not a member of ABS, because they are not including certain tests, so for her there is little point, the requirements to be on the ABS are to low, for Rottweilers they have hip scores and mandatory, that's it.. She hip scores, elbow scores, does DNA, heart test, eye test and temp test etc, so out of the 100's of assured breeders in my bred, I would use one, and the other isn't even on there.. Like I said thankfully the breed clubs are lobby for mandatory requirements to be added, but again, it's no guarantee you'll pick and ethical breeder, that you can only do with A LOT of research and waiting sometime times years rather than days or months for your puppy, how many people are going to wait that long, most can't wait a few days  CD are the best of a rotten bunch I'm sorry to say


They could always do what I did. I was unable to find a puppy in my chosen breed that met my health test, low inbreeding coefficient, instead I took on a dog somebody else didn't want, that gives me time to look and perhaps the joy (and horror  ) of two dogs in the future.

When I see stories on here from people who have the excitement of their chosen puppy being conceived, born, reared and then coming home with them I'm envious. More stories like that becoming the norm, people will see the extra excitement waiting can bring. We just need those stories given publicity too.


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## MariaB (Aug 28, 2013)

In case the op doesn't see she has mail. I did a google image search on those pictures last night and it came up on two other sites, both with different specified areas. One of the adds is still running, which means you can get an address.

All the best

Maria


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Meezey said:


> Cian breeder is not a member of ABS, because they are not including certain tests, so for her there is little point, the requirements to be on the ABS are to low, for Rottweilers they have hip scores and mandatory, that's it.. She hip scores, elbow scores, does DNA, heart test, eye test and temp test etc, so out of the 100's of assured breeders in my bred, I would use one, and the other isn't even on there.. Like I said thankfully the breed clubs are lobby for mandatory requirements to be added, but again, it's no guarantee you'll pick and ethical breeder, that you can only do with A LOT of research and waiting sometime times years rather than days or months for your puppy, how many people are going to wait that long, most can't wait a few days  CD are the best of a rotten bunch I'm sorry to say


I do more than the ABS requires as well, I didn't really join it because of the *accolade* of being an ABS member, I did it because I wanted to support the scheme, and try and have some input into any direction it takes. But it seems as if those above decide where it goes, so I'm wondering whether to just save my money and do my own thing from now on, which is what I did before. I wasn't a member when I had Tau's litter.

As for breed clubs lobbying for tests to become mandatory, I'm wary about that, everyone's shouting for EIC to be tested for, yet I do not see any dogs with EIC, it doesn't seem to be a problem within the breed, there aren't dogs collapsing on a regular basis being reported as down to EIC and yet it's being pushed for as mandatory for the ABS. Could it possibly be that someone on high tested their dogs, and they weren't clear


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## turnips (Sep 20, 2013)

Just saw this thread from the main page. Wanted to say that there is definitely some variety of Irish connection, if you do reverse image search on the pictures in the original ad (Unique Cockapoo Puppies | Manchester, Greater Manchester | Pets4Homes), the first two appear in DoneDeal in various listings. So I don't know if it's those Irish breeders, or what, but the photos are at least Irish. Here are the listings where the photos are from:

Cocker Spaniel Puppies For Sale in Waterford : €280 - DoneDeal.co.uk
pedigree cocker spaniel pup For Sale in Tyrone : £230 - DoneDeal.co.uk

Also, these people seem to have been doing this for a long while, since there are adverts from several months ago for "Unique cockapoo puppies" in Manchester that to be appear suspiciously similar in wording to the original.

Could you possibly PM me the number that you had for the breeder? Just want to see if I can do a bit more sleuthing with it...


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## edenorchards (Nov 22, 2013)

As a Cockapoo breeder I am particularly horrified by what you have said. I am also concerned that the veterinarians were unable to save this puppy. I do not understand why this puppy died under veterinary care. Diarrhea should not kill an animal under proper medical care except in the most extreme of circumstances or when paired with a nasty disease.
Anyway I am starting a not-for-profit involving Cockapoos, which means I have a good lawyer familiar with international and animal laws. I'm American, so naturally my attorney's information will only be partially helpful, but here it is:

Make sure you have a necropsy performed (post mortem). I personally recommend you collect the body and have the necropsy performed by a different unaffiliated veterinarian. You may have a death because of poor medical care and NOT due to poor breeding conditions, etc.

Get everything in writing.

Don't pay the bill until you feel like you absolutely must, however if the death is not due to poor veterinary treatment you will be legally responsible for the bill. However it is prudent to wait until you have a necropsy performed by an unaffiliated veterinarian before paying the bill.

Many veterinarians will perform necropsies for free. Find a vet that will do it for free. These are always the good vets. Good veterinarians are interested in learning, discovering, and necropsies give them the opportunity to do just that. Crappy vets are only interested in money and nothing else.

My personal advice: do the above and then if you want to really hurt this "breeder" you need to 1) talk to her in person. The fact that the pup was in ill health and the telephone was disconnected surely says this breeder is a terrible person, but you should still at least try to speak with her face-to-face. Get the chance to have her repay your puppy fees (in the state I live in the US you would be entitled to double the purchase price of the puppy in this case, for certain-all you'd have to do is go pro se and take them to court)

After you are ignored or refused help by the "breeder" you should hit her where it hurts, contact the advertising company. Expect them not to care, because they won't. All they are going to hear is "trouble, trouble, liability" and they are going to be quick to point to their legal disclaimers and end the phone call. Expect it now so you aren't upset when they don't care about the actual issue at hand: abuse to helpless infant animals. Ask the advertising company to allow you to run an ad saying this woman sold you a sick animal that perished as a result of her irresponsibility. Only do this if a necropsy confirms that the puppy was not the age advertised and dead due to poor care at the hands of the previous home.

Post on every social media outlet you can find. Every single one. Ask friends and family and even strangers that see the post to copy and paste the info or to "share" the info. Send out an email as well, short and sweet "BUYER BEWARE" such and such breeder at such and such address and with such and such telephone number is a terrible animal abusing person. Please do not purchase a puppy from this person. We made this mistake and now we owe **money owed to vet** and have a sad little dead puppy due to very poor care at the hands of this person. Please share this and let everyone know so people do not continue to support her business of cruelty and heartache." now ask everyone to forward this, etc. Get the word out. It is the only way.

and pursue legal action against the woman. But social media and word-of-mouth is how you will hurt her business. Good breeders (such as myself) sell our dogs based solely on word-of-mouth. Our healthy dogs and happy clients do all the selling for us as people see them out and ask about their gorgeous dogs and they tell others what their personal experience with the breeder is. Advertisements are nice, but unnecessary for breeders like me. 

And finally if you wish to go to a real, good breeder in the UK for an amazing cockapoo pup (and they are truly the greatest little crossbreed ever) then check out a forum dedicated to cockapoos. I am unsure if I am allowed to share a particular one on this forum as I signed up just to answer your question. But the I Love My Cockapoo forum is full of great people from the UK and amazing resources (and breeders)


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

I am not sure whether the OP starting the thread is still following it but in case, and before I bow out , I'd like to say the following:

Firstly, I am sorry for my prior sanctimonious post in regards to "naive victim". It isn't that what I said didn't have merit - nontetheless, it was a case of coming in to late and speaking too soon. I have caught up with the entirety of the thread and you were, indeed, fully aware of your responsabilities by then. My apologies and thank you for being so gracious.

Secondly, if you ever opt to adopt another furry family member, may I offer some unsolicited advice?

Much has been said about "good breeders" and what makes someone a good breeder and who should or shouldn't breed and why, where to get a dog and where to avoid obtaining it from. And whilst all of it is worthy of consideration, one can get lost in all of it. Thereby losing sight of the most important part - the dog.

Never forget that at the end of the day you aren't adopting the breeder but their dog. And being a thoroughly decent, diligent human being and breeding fabulous dogs do NOT necessarily go hand in hand. It really doesn't. Just as unscrupulous schmucks can breed fantastic companions, fabulous people can breed crummy dogs. Never lose sight of this when interviewing breeders. Which is surprisingly easy to do.

If you DON'T really care for the breeder's dog(s), please don't overlook or minimise aspects which bother or concern you - e.g. A stand-offish dam, an overly boisterous dog, or a shy puppy - just on accounts of the breeder being a genuinly delightful person who went above and beyond with health tests, standards of keeping their dogs or raising their pups.

It's the adult dog who passes on the genes, and largely shapes a pups behaviour, not the breeder. There is a concept in psychology called "what is beautiful is good" whereby we bestow unwarranted positive attributes to beautiful people. The same concept applies to when we simply like people - and we extend this "what is decent & nice is good" to other things associated with this person. Like their dogs.

But the only thing which really matters is that you REALLY click with the dog. Not the person mating his parents. It is a lovely, lovely bonus if you do. Just don't lose focus on the only thing which matters.

Wishing you all good things, a speedy resolution of your current issue.... and, of course, a most happy, healthy puppy next time round. Be well.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> If you DON'T really care for the breeder's dog(s), please don't overlook or minimise aspects which bother or concern you - e.g. A stand-offish dam, an overly boisterous dog, or a shy puppy - just on accounts of the breeder being a genuinly delightful person who went above and beyond with health tests, standards of keeping their dogs or raising their pups.
> 
> It's the adult dog who passes on the genes, and largely shapes a pups behaviour, not the breeder. There is a concept in psychology called "what is beautiful is good" whereby we bestow unwarranted positive attributes to beautiful people. The same concept applies to when we simply like people - and we extend this "what is decent & nice is good" to other things associated with this person. Like their dogs.
> 
> But the only thing which really matters is that you REALLY click with the dog. Not the person mating his parents. It is a lovely, lovely bonus if you do. Just don't lose focus on the only thing which matters.


*sigh* and again I'm surprised how naive some people can be, I do really do despair for new dog owners like the OP if people who profess to know dogs spout this. Good ethical breeders will raise dogs with much more than just looks and health in mind, a good ethical breeder doesn't make them a nice person lol in fact I'd say a good ethical breed with the pups and breeds welfare at heart might be seem a royal pain in the arse to a lot of wanna be owners, GOOD breeders will want nothing but the best for their puppies, they will have done all the health test, all the COI etc, guess what these breeders certainly in my breed breed for temperament as well not just health and conformation, these types of breeders will also advise you on the best puppy to suit you and your family, and it is help to like the breeders too because generally these good breeders will stay in contact with you throughout your dogs life. So it's a whole package, health, temp, upbringing, amount of litters amount of dogs, once you've found that breeder ( yes it can take time) they will help you with the selection process, a good breeder is also someone who does right by their dogs and puppies and you, but their #1 priority will always be the puppies they produce and the life those puppies have. These good breeder will have given their puppies the best start in life and socialised them and worked with them for hours and hours getting to know their puppies before they leave to go to their new homes, and they are the people who will tell you your not right for a certain puppy or even your not getting one..

You might "click" with a certain puppy, but that doesn't always mean it's the right puppy for you.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm sure there's a fair few people think I'm bl**dy awful to be quite honest, and I'm the first to admit that I can be pretty dismissive, and will speak my mind if I think it's the right thing to do, sometimes that hurts feelings but then I've never pretended to want to be popular for the sake of being popular. Does that make me a good or bad breeder? Doesn't make me anything really, like any other breeder, the proof is in their actions, and it's up to people looking at those actions to interpret them and make their mind up whether they think a breeder is good or bad, what sort of personality I am has nothing really to do with it. 

I'd also like to point out as a breeder, I wouldn't be mating the parents, that would be extremely unethical and illegal


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Meezey said:


> *sigh* and again I'm surprised how naive some people can be, I do really do despair for new dog owners like the OP if people who profess to know dogs spout this. Good ethical breeders will raise dogs with much more than just looks and health in mind, a good ethical breeder doesn't make them a nice person lol in fact I'd say a good ethical breed with the pups and breeds welfare at heart might be seem a royal pain in the arse to a lot of wanna be owners, GOOD breeders will want nothing but the best for their puppies, they will have done all the health test, all the COI etc, guess what these breeders certainly in my breed breed for temperament as well not just health and conformation, these types of breeders will also advise you on the best puppy to suit you and your family, and it is help to like the breeders too because generally these good breeders will stay in contact with you throughout your dogs life. So it's a whole package, health, temp, upbringing, amount of litters amount of dogs, once you've found that breeder ( yes it can take time) they will help you with the selection process, a good breeder is also someone who does right by their dogs and puppies and you, but their #1 priority will always be the puppies they produce and the life those puppies have. These good breeder will have given their puppies the best start in life and socialised them and worked with them for hours and hours getting to know their puppies before they leave to go to their new homes, and they are the people who will tell you your not right for a certain puppy or even your not getting one..
> 
> You might "click" with a certain puppy, but that doesn't always mean it's the right puppy for you.


I disagree.

On the top of my head I could name you half a dozen people who breed dogs exactly as you delineated above. They are people with integrity, decency, know-how and all manner of positive attributes.

Would I SELL a dog to them if I was breeding myself? In a heartbeat.

Would I BUY a pup from one of their current breeding bitches? No.

Because as great as people as they undeniably are, whilst there is no doubt that they are "good breeders"....their dogs aren't all that perfect for ME. i would not want a pup from a hyperactive bitch and sire, I would not want a pup from an aloof, stand-offish bitch, I wouldn't want a pup from a bitch so reactive that she barks at anything and everything.

You seem to equate dedication and passion to outstanding breeding results. And I can tell you unequivocally - it just ain't so. I have lived long enough and, more importantly, had dogs for long enough to assert that it isn't so. Dedication, diligence and integrity MAY go hand in hand with breeding great dogs, but the pivotal word here is "may". No breeder is immune to insufficient objectivity when it comes to their own dogs. How could they - that dog is their OWN.

That aside - what is a breeder? A BREEDER is a dog OWNER who is purposefully mating their dog. It isn't a seperate species with extra bells and whistles. And EVERY owner lacks objectivity towards their own dog to some extent. Don't tell me "ah, but that's why good breeders show their dogs". So? A beauty pageant is hardly the most discerning venue whether that dog's offspring will make good pets.

I have zero problem with you disagreeing but I still would urge a PPO to rely more on their own perception of the DOG and pay heed to any alarm bells than to be influenced by the breeder's persona or credentials.

Oh and just to say - there are some breeders which I don't personally care for one iota. Not in HOW they breed or keep their dogs, but a few are outstandingly arrogant, unpleasant, pompous, infused by their self-perceived importance Ar**s. I have SERIOUS issues with the training methods of a couple of them which they would classify as "strict" and I would term "brutal and ignorant".

But would I buy a dog from them if I was looking for their particular breed? In a heartbeat. The dogs are outstanding in both temperament and appearance..... even though their owners leave a lot to be desired.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

turnips said:


> Just saw this thread from the main page. Wanted to say that there is definitely some variety of Irish connection, if you do *reverse image search* on the pictures in the original ad (Unique Cockapoo Puppies | Manchester, Greater Manchester | Pets4Homes), the first two appear in DoneDeal in various listings. So I don't know if it's those Irish breeders, or what, but the photos are at least Irish. Here are the listings where the photos are from:
> 
> Cocker Spaniel Puppies For Sale in Waterford : €280 - DoneDeal.co.uk
> pedigree cocker spaniel pup For Sale in Tyrone : £230 - DoneDeal.co.uk
> ...


blimey!!! Are you a decetive?!  What is a reverse image search?! you are good lol!


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## MariaB (Aug 28, 2013)

Reverse image is really easy. 

Open another google window and set it to 'image ' from the menu bar.
Open the web page picture you want to image search in the other window.
Now you have two windows open. Window 1 and window 2
drag the image from window one and drop the image into the search box on window 2


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I disagree.
> 
> On the top of my head I could name you half a dozen people who breed dogs exactly as you delineated above. They are people with integrity, decency, know-how and all manner of positive attributes.
> 
> ...


Again your totally missing the point YOU ARE the one who thinks a good breeder is purely down to looks and health tests.. You have a different perception of what a good breeder is to me good breeder/owners are aware of their dogs faults ( that's why they show) and they will research dogs that will help improve these points, good breeders wouldn't breed a "hyper" not sure what your definition of hyper is badly trained? ill mannered? bad diet? High drive? to another hyper dog unless you consider high drive as hyper which they will of they are planning to work the dog, again a GOOD breeder would match the temperament of the sire with the dam by research often years of it.

And I have lived and worked with dogs and been round breeders to know what I consider a good breeder, again it's NOTHING to do with looks you missed out all the information regarding breeding for temperament etc. Would I go to someone who I thought their training methods were brutal, hell NO I wouldn't care how good their dogs were morally I wouldn't touch them with someone else's because the welfare of ALL dogs matters to me, and I wouldn't hand money to someone if I thought their training methods were "brutal"..

FYI do you know about certain breeds standards? What if the breed standard stated the breed was aloof and stand offish?? You wouldn't take a dog from a dog bred to standard.. Interesting..


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Meezey said:


> Again your totally missing the point YOUR the one who thinks a good breeder is purely down to looks and health tests.. You have a different perception of what a good breeder is to me good breeder/owners are aware of their dogs faults ( that's why they show) and they will research dogs that will help improve these points, good breeders wouldn't breed a "hyper" not sure what your definition of hyper is badly trained? ill mannered? bad diet? High drive? to another hyper dog unless you consider high drive as hyper which they will of they are planning to work the dog, again a GOOD breeder would match the temperament of the sire with the dam by research often years of it.
> 
> And I have lived and worked with dogs and been round breeders to know what I consider a good breeder, again it's NOTHING to do with looks you missed out all the information regarding breeding for temperament etc. Would I go to someone who I thought their training methods were brutal, hell NO I wouldn't care how good their dogs were morally I wouldn't touch them with someone else's because the welfare of ALL dogs matters to me, and I wouldn't hand money to someone if I thought their training methods were "brutal"..
> 
> FYI do you know about certain breeds standards? What if the breed standard stated the breed was aloof and stand offish?? You wouldn't take a dog from a dog bred to standard.. Interesting..


Meezey, I think we are talking alongside another here.

You seem to have a rather rigid, unflexible view on who or what is or isn't a good breeder and who you would and wouldn't buy a dog from. Whilst I don't share your views, I nevertheless respect them.

But my prior post, aimed at the OP who lost the puppy, wasn't an exposè of supposedly good vs. bad breeders.

It was a suggestion, an advice, because looking for a puppy can be a bewildering, bamboozling experience.

Example: PPO meets breeder. Breeder lovely, pups & adults kept in exemplary conditions, dam a bit reluctant to say hello, one of the other adult dogs goes berserk as doorbell rings and dam joins in, pups take a long time to initiate contact with PPO but then friendly, dam neither friendly nor unfriendly.

Now......would those pups make good pets or not?

As you said, a lot depends on the breed. If I viewed German Shepherds or Akitas I wouldn't expect the adults to be interested in people outside their family. If I viewed Labradors, Newfies, goldens or some such, I would thank the breeder for their time and look for a dog elsewhere.

Doesn't make the breeder a bad breeder....it makes him/her not the breeder for ME. As I don't really care for an aloof, reactive dog.

Which is what I was recommending to the OP: look at the dogs. Judge the dogs. Make sure you connect with the dog and the pup. You are adopting a dog, not the person breeding it.

IMO, prudent advice. You disagree. Entirely cool. Even though for the life of me I can't figure out why. Are you seriously saying a PPO should focus on the breeder instead of their dogs?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Meezey, I think we are talking alongside another here.
> 
> You seem to have a rather rigid, unflexible view on who or what is or isn't a good breeder and who you would and wouldn't buy a dog from. Whilst I don't share your views, I nevertheless respect them.
> 
> ...


I am NOT saying that. ... I'm making the point that a GOOD breeder wouldn't be breeding from a shy or nervous or reactive dog, simply doing that alone put them in the BAD breed category?

Again you connecting with a puppy don't make it the RIGHT puppy for you.

Lots of people have connections with the shyest pup in the litter, if the dog is going in to a busy house with lots of people coming and going, loud noises and general mayhem that may not be the best puppy for you, although a good breeder will know their puppies personalities inside out. If your new to Rottweilers or dogs in general, and you connect with the bolshiest dog pup in the litter, who won't take no for answer is the fact you have a connection with it enough for you to decide that is the dog for you?

The breeder and dogs are a package, if something doesn't sit right with you, with either the dog OR the breeder then look else where.

It's not about just the puppies or the breeder, it's about finding the right person with the right ethics for YOU, who helps you select the right puppy for you and gives you life long support, it's hand in hand...

You seem to think it's okay for a breeder to be "brutal" to their dogs and that still makes them a good breeder to you..

OP I'm really sorry for hijacking your thread.


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## turnips (Sep 20, 2013)

Taylorbaby said:


> blimey!!! Are you a decetive?!  What is a reverse image search?! you are good lol!


Like MariaB said, it's pretty easy and I always HIGHLY recommend it if you think an ad is a scam, or anything like that. ( Google Images ) It's really handy if you're suspicious of a photo - also if you're selling something, or are an artist or photographer, and think someone may be using your photos.

If you're suspicious of someone listing an ad and they have a phone number, googling their phone number can be useful - sometimes you'll find something interesting in another listing, and sometimes you can find an advert where they've listed the phone number you know and a second phone number - then you have a second number to sleuth...

I'm not a sleuth, but I am a (not yet qualified, so not really) librarian. Also I have a slightly grim hobby of researching missing persons/unidentified remains cases in my spare time so I spend a lot of time googling weird stuff.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

turnips said:


> Like MariaB said, it's pretty easy and I always HIGHLY recommend it if you think an ad is a scam, or anything like that. ( Google Images ) It's really handy if you're suspicious of a photo - also if you're selling something, or are an artist or photographer, and think someone may be using your photos.
> 
> If you're suspicious of someone listing an ad and they have a phone number, googling their phone number can be useful - sometimes you'll find something interesting in another listing, and sometimes you can find an advert where they've listed the phone number you know and a second phone number - then you have a second number to sleuth...
> 
> I'm not a sleuth, but* I am a (not yet qualified, so not really) librarian. *Also I have a slightly grim hobby of researching missing persons/unidentified remains cases in my spare time so I spend a lot of time googling weird stuff.


A librarian! Next to vets and gynaecologists, librarians are supposed to be the most highly evolved life form in the universe! And I think that you have proved tour worthiness of this great accolade.

And thanks for the tip!


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Meezey said:


> I am NOT saying that. ... I'm making the point that a GOOD breeder wouldn't be breeding from a shy or nervous or reactive dog, simply doing that alone put them in the BAD breed category?
> 
> Again you connecting with a puppy don't make it the RIGHT puppy for you.
> 
> ...


Oh, come on!

Obviously no "good breeder" would breed a dog that THEY deem to be shy, reactive or whatever.

But THEIR perception of THEIR dog is hardly the most pertinent, nor necessarily the most accurate or unbiased one, when it comes to chosing YOUR future dog, is it?

Plus, EVERY decent breeder would love to breed from the ideal dog. Which the breeding hopeful they bought in or kept from a litter may or may not turn out to be. And I can tell you with certainty, that unless that dog REALLY falls wide of the mark in terms of health clearances or temperament, the vast majority of breeders would breed that bitch anyway. YOU may not do it...but you are somewhat in the minority.

Now if you can honestly say that you haven't seen a myriad of dogs where you quietly thought at you wouldn't have bred from that dog, I'll eat my hat. We ALL have. And half the time it has nothing to do with the breeders being "bad".

In summary: someone breeding their dog can be, and sometimes are, just as misguided as anyone else regarding the opinion of their own dog.

My take - believe your OWN eyes and instincts more than anyone elses. And that goes when buying a dog. ESPECIALLY when buying a dog.

It's true that a very quiet, somewhat timid puppy might not be ideal for a raucous environment, nor a very bolshy one the ideal pairing for complete novice owners. And a breeder's guidance in this respect valuable.

However, it is equally important to state that the examined behaviour of an 8 week old puppy has VERY little predictive value. The quiet little pup may easily blossom and become more extrovert once seperated from his rowdy siblings overshadowing him. Just as the bolshy one may quieten down when removed from the constant stimulation of his peers. It is a rare pup who conforms to his 8 week old persona into adulthood. And for many, if not most, people ANY pup from a well-bred litter will be a good match.

Be that as it may - we obviously don't see eye to eye on this topic. Its all good.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Oh, come on!
> 
> Obviously no "good breeder" would breed a dog that THEY deem to be shy, reactive or whatever.
> 
> ...


I don't breed but what I have done is researched in to my breed and breeders. You are reading from this what you want to read 

I'm well aware that a pups temp will change BUT that has nothing to do with it's breeding or the breeder that's the environment it goes to.I strongly disagree that any pup from a well bred litter will suit.Hence good breeder knowing their puppies and letting them have time to shine on their own and knowing the true temp.

"Obviously no "good breeder" would breed a dog that THEY deem to be shy, reactive or whatever. "
True that's why " good breeders" get their dogs temperament tested by someone qualified and impartial to make that call..

The wrong dog being bred does make the breeder a bad breeder, what is your definition of bad? You don't think of someone who is brutal to their dogs is bad, but someone who breeds from a shy dog is. 
So lets go back to my "rigid" definition of what a good breeder is: 
A breeder who will only breed from temperament tested ( officially independently temperament tested) dogs awarded excellent both sire and dam
A breeder who health tests, for my breed I will accept no less than Elbow, heart, eyes, hips, DNA and only use Studs with the above test done, and those test must within the acceptable score.
They will only use their stud dogs on heath and temperament tested bitches 
The show and work their dogs
They rarely breed
They offer a life time of support
They research each mating and find dogs that compliment each other in both temperament and conformation
They will always take puppies back
They will match their puppies to the right owner
They are interested in their puppies and how they are doing and are proud of each and everyone.
They will not breed from any lines with KNOWN health or temperament issues.
I also want to meet both dam and sire, and have done in all 4 Rottweilers I have owned and will do in the next one too 
They eye and heart and temp test puppies
All their dogs and puppies are raised in the home, as part of the family.

That to be is a good breeder, rigid about it of course I am.. I want a health well adjusted puppy who has had the best start to life, so I make no apology for that, and I want everyone else to have puppies like that.. If that's wrong shot me.

No disrespect to you Hopeattheendofthetunnel but this comment say it all

"My take - believe your OWN eyes and instincts more than anyone elses. And that goes when buying a dog. ESPECIALLY when buying a dog."

This is why the OP is in the god awful situation they are in now...


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Meezey said:


> No disrespect to you Hopeattheendofthetunnel but this comment say it all
> 
> "My take - believe your OWN eyes and instincts more than anyone elses. And that goes when buying a dog. ESPECIALLY when buying a dog."
> 
> This is why the OP is in the god awful situation they are in now...


Really? You don't think it may have had something to do with haste by the OP, lack of research and being unlucky enough to meet a thoroughly unscrupulous person who has a void for a soul whilst producing dogs?

Do you know how many people I know who did EXACTLY what the OP did and ended up with with fabulous, long-lived companions? Do you know how many people I know who bought from breeders who conform to your criteria and who buried their dog at 4? Or who encountered a plethora of health issues or behavioural issues? Many. Of both groups. Except, alarmingly more of the latter one. Doesn't seem fair, but it's true all the same.

There is some perverse irony in our exchange. Because with every fibre of my heart I WISHED you were absolutely right and spot-on in what you are saying. I say this without sarcasm or anything else... I really, really do. It would be awesome if decent, knowledgeable people bred healthy, sound, stable dogs and irresponsible morons, awful ones. Would make puppy buying a cinch. The truth is - it doesn't always follow.

All the best


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## ltawn (Sep 22, 2013)

Hello firstly I am really sorry about your puppy loss, it is really horrible situation to be in.

Sadly we have also been in that position with a Springer Spaniel we purchased for a KC breeder in Wisbech, and our puppy died 2 weeks after getting his of hydrocephalus and went blind. Also the breeder did not put into place the 4 weeks insurance he told us he had done, therefore we lost the puppy price and a large vets bill

Ok we are a little further down the process than yourselves so I well let you know the advice we got from a solicitor. Firstly the sale of livestock comes under the sale of goods act, and if it was sold unfit for its purpose then you have a case. The CAB office has copies of all the letters and wording you need to send recorded delivery before you can go to the small claims court. We have sent copies of these letters with no response, and are now waiting for a court date. It costs £45 if you do it online, and we have been advised we stand a very very good chance of getting our money back. You must document everything and have as much evidence as possible. We also cannot get through on the telephone, and the KC were not interested !. We reported the advert to pets4homes and they deleted it.

The CAB were great and the legal letters that you copy are ideal. Good luck with it, and don't give in people like this cannot be allowed to breed dogs, and cause so much distress to families and the poor puppies involved. There is also a charity called justice for dogs which will give you advice

Best of luck


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