# the CM / DW public-relations empire



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

http://tinyurl.com/322jp8d

an excellent overview of the Millan fiefdom.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I read the article, is the person that wrote that, bright?as i'm sure she states something about him "training dogs", doesn't she know he never claims to do that?
Terry for the amout of times you read up and post about Cesar, i'm sure you've a soft for him really.:lol:*


----------



## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *I read the article, is the person that wrote that, bright?as i'm sure she states something about him "training dogs", doesn't she know he never claims to do that?
> Terry for the amout of times you read up and post about Cesar, i'm sure you've a soft for him really.:lol:*


Don't you realise yet that however much Cesar claims not to train dogs, he does exactly that?

Anyone who teaches dogs to do/not to do anything is training them.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> Don't you realise yet that however much Cesar claims not to train dogs, he does exactly that?
> 
> Anyone who teaches dogs to do/not to do anything is training them.


*lmao er i'm not as thick as you might think.*


----------



## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *lmao er i'm not as thick as you might think.*


Then I don't understand your point.

You accuse someone of being thick for stating that Cesar trains dogs. He DOES train dogs. He can call it what he likes and deny it all he likes, but he trains dogs.

I suggest anyone who thinks he DOESN'T train dogs is thick.


----------



## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

The artical does make a very valied point, which ever side of the fence you sit on, and the show is encouraging people to seek out professional trainers thus improving the dogs quality of life. Trainers are then able to show that positive reward training is the way forward. :thumbup:


----------



## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

sue&harvey said:


> The artical does make a very valied point, which ever side of the fence you sit on, and the show is encouraging people to seek out professional trainers thus improving the dogs quality of life. Trainers are then able to show that positive reward training is the way forward. :thumbup:


True :biggrin:

Decent trainers/behaviourists are getting loads of business from people who have tried CM's methods and either they haven't worked or they've made the dog worse, which is why the "Anti Cesar trainers are just jealous of his success" line is so laughable. Anti Cesar trainers probably send him thank you cards :biggrin:


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Colliepoodle said:


> Anti Cesar trainers probably send him thank you cards :biggrin:


hey, pooh! :--)

actually, pos-R trainers that i know of, in his home area, all voice the same complaint - 
Yes, they are close-enuf to do repair-jobs on dogs that CM or his staff have directly worked with, 
and Yes, they get plenty of fix-it work - *but all would PREFER to work with the dog As-Was, *pre-DW-tactics* - 
as the dogs issues would have been relatively straightforward + simple. *

according to their statements on various trainers-lists, 
*post-DW-tactics* the behavioral problems are NOT as simple, and often involve fearful or defensive add-ons - 
like ducking when someone reaches toward their head, neck or collar, or *snapping* under the same circs, 
or a reflexive snap at FEET when ppl walk too-close (for dogs who have been *tapped* /kicked once too often) 
or some other defensive-aggro that the dog did not exhibit before.

having worked with dogs whose owners SELF-applied DW-tactics, i can heartily second the preference for *Before* - 
its easier to teach a dog a reliable, relaxed DOWN if that dog was never forced into that position, + held there. 

there are also DW-mimics, who create the same problems for subsequent training / trainers - 
defensive behaviors, shutting-down, being turned-off by training or the mere *sight* of training-tools like leashes, etc.

having to train leash-free in a fenced or indoor area is one common complication - 
for dogs who fold (sit or drop and refuse to move) when a leash is clipped to the collar.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> Then I don't understand your point.
> 
> *You accuse someone of being thick* for stating that Cesar trains dogs. He DOES train dogs. He can call it what he likes and deny it all he likes, but he trains dogs.
> 
> I suggest anyone who thinks he DOESN'T train dogs is thick.


*Sorry but can you show me where i did that?*


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Ive not seen a lot of C.M, but i have to say,(and i might need my tin hat on for this one) what i have seen ive liked call hin a trainer or not i was honestly gobsmacked when i first heard on her that his ways were cruel or thats how so many see them the programmes ive seen i never thought was cruel, or thought the ways could have made a dog worse but i suppose that could be said for a lot of methods i dont know.


----------



## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> Ive not seen a lot of C.M, but i have to say,(and i might need my tin hat on for this one) what i have seen ive liked call hin a trainer or not i was honestly gobsmacked when i first heard on her that his ways were cruel or thats how so many see them the programmes ive seen i never thought was cruel, or thought the ways could have made a dog worse but i suppose that could be said for a lot of methods i dont know.


Hi, the one programme that actually swung me against his methods was a dog with separation anxeity who would tear the door frames off when left at home. 
He introduced a crate but from what the programme showed didn't make it a pleasurable place to be. I don't think the owners had already tried other methods, but I may be wrong. CM then layed shock pads by the windows and doors, and a shock collar so the poor dog danced across when he tried to get to the door. The Crate was never used  As far as I am aware the dog wasn't tired out by a good long run before being left, calmatives were not tried. IMO this poor dog never learned to cope with it;s anexieties it was made to... so there would still be the major stress of being left added with the knowledge of door and window = pain. :sad:

Havig dealt with SA with Harvey it took us ages but with time, patience and 90 euros later for a crate and calmatives my dog knows I will be back so his time is better spent sleeping and chowing down on a tasty kong. 
JMO though, I do respect others find his ways sucessful, But this show made me cry for the poor dog. I also had a trainer for Harvey who used the Alpha rolls :scared: All his body language was screaming get away from me, and he yelped when she did it, and she wondered why he nipped her when she went to make him lay down. There was no need as he will do it for a bit of sausage but her answer was life isn't a game  I never had her back after that.


----------



## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

> I read the article, is the person that wrote that, bright?as i'm sure she states something about him "training dogs", doesn't she know he never claims to do that?


You question the "bright"ness of the person who wrote the article. You also put "training dogs" in quotation marks, which suggests you don't think he trains dogs.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> You question the "bright"ness of the person who wrote the article. You also put "training dogs" in quotation marks, which suggests you don't think he trains dogs.


*:lol::lol: But i did NOT call anyone stupid.I don't give 2 hoots for how many anti Cesar fans are out there as i've got a mind of my own.And unless you can read my mind, please don't tell me what i'm suggesting.*


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sue&harvey said:


> I also had a trainer for Harvey who used the Alpha rolls.
> :scared: *All his body language was screaming get away* from me, and *he yelped when she did it*,
> and *she wondered why he nipped her when she went to make him lay down. There was no need,
> as he will do it for a bit of sausage but her answer was, life isn't a game.
> I never had her back after that. *


gee, sue - 
why didn;t ya have her back again?  i mean, other than scaring the bejabbers out of the poor dog, 
who was suddenly afraid to lie-down in human presence for a few days or a week, 
she didn;t do anything so terrible - right? 

_*sarcasm alert - 
i don;t seriously question her reasoning for not having the same trainer return - 
just in case anyone is wondering.  i wouldn;t want to leave confusion in my wake.  *_


----------



## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *:lol::lol: But i did NOT call anyone stupid.I don't give 2 hoots for how many anti Cesar fans are out there as i've got a mind of my own.And unless you can read my mind, please don't tell me what i'm suggesting.*


You can dress it up how you like, but questioning someone's brightness is fairly obviously NOT a compliment


----------



## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> gee, sue -
> why didn;t ya have her back again?  i mean, other than scaring the bejabbers out of the poor dog,
> who was suddenly afraid to lie-down in human presence for a few days or a week,
> she didn;t do anything so terrible - right?
> ...


:lol::lol: The worst thing was She told me to practice the Alpha Roll :thumbdown::ciappa:


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

O


sue&harvey said:


> Hi, the one programme that actually swung me against his methods was a dog with separation anxeity who would tear the door frames off when left at home.
> He introduced a crate but from what the programme showed didn't make it a pleasurable place to be. I don't think the owners had already tried other methods, but I may be wrong. CM then layed shock pads by the windows and doors, and a shock collar so the poor dog danced across when he tried to get to the door. The Crate was never used  As far as I am aware the dog wasn't tired out by a good long run before being left, calmatives were not tried. IMO this poor dog never learned to cope with it;s anexieties it was made to... so there would still be the major stress of being left added with the knowledge of door and window = pain. :sad:
> 
> Havig dealt with SA with Harvey it took us ages but with time, patience and 90 euros later for a crate and calmatives my dog knows I will be back so his time is better spent sleeping and chowing down on a tasty kong.
> JMO though, I do respect others find his ways sucessful, But this show made me cry for the poor dog. I also had a trainer for Harvey who used the Alpha rolls :scared: All his body language was screaming get away from me, and he yelped when she did it, and she wondered why he nipped her when she went to make him lay down. There was no need as he will do it for a bit of sausage but her answer was life isn't a game  I never had her back after that.


Oh that sounds awful and maybe shouldnt judge by one programme, but ime afraid that 1 alone would have stood in my mind, what a shame sounds barbaric.


----------



## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> O
> 
> Oh that sounds awful and maybe shouldnt judge by one programme, but ime afraid that 1 alone would have stood in my mind, what a shame sounds barbaric.


As I say I sat on the fence for a while but this really clinched it for me. It was about the same time as this trainer so I think between them both it made it obvious to me that there are better kinder ways of training. But that episode really got to me even the OH who is sick of my talk about dogs was horrified.


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

I certainly wouldn't class him as a trainer. He is a TV celebrity yes, but not a trainer, not a 'psychologist' and certainly not a 'whisperer'. He was a sweeper-upper at a dog groomers who got a lucky break. Good for him - not so good for dogs though. I dare say he has shares in *Elastoplast *now though!


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> I certainly wouldn't class him as a trainer. He is a TV celebrity yes, but not a trainer, not a 'psychologist' and certainly not a 'whisperer'. He was a sweeper-upper at a dog groomers who got a lucky break. Good for him - not so good for dogs though. I dare say he has shares in *Elastoplast *now though!


*pmsl at least you agree he isn't a dog trainer.(his words not mine)again i'm lmao off at your comments.Who gives a sh*t what he was?
I think you anti CM people have a big chip on your shoulders.:lol::lol:*


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *pmsl at least you agree he isn't a dog trainer.(his words not mine)again i'm lmao off at your comments.Who gives a sh*t what he was?*
> *I think you anti CM people have a big chip on your shoulders.:lol::lol:*


No chip on my shoulder Janice. I am comfortable with what I think of him and have absolutely no axe to grind with those who think he is wonderful. 

I have no need to take the pee out of your posts or opinions either so I won't lower myself. I can make my point without resorting to that sort of behaviour.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> No chip on my shoulder Janice. I am comfortable with what I think of him and have absolutely no axe to grind with those who think he is wonderful.
> 
> I have no need to take the pee out of your posts or opinions either so I won't lower myself. I can make my point without resorting to that sort of behaviour.


*If i've offended you than i'm sorry.However i am sick and tired of the endless posts regarding CM.I've been here long enough to know there are those for him and those against.I just wished that we could all have our view without numerous threads about the guy.*


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> * ...Who gives a sh*t what he was?
> I think you anti CM people have a big chip on your shoulders. :lol::lol:*


speaking of Public-Relations + mass-appeal and all that - may i tactfully remark, *janice, 
that this is unlikely to win-over those who are un-committed or entirely ignorant of Himself.

and to quote one of my old-fashioned neighbors speaking to a rude boy, 
_*son, do U kiss Ur momma with that mouth? :huh: *_

i think U misattribute who is sporting a chip, and daring the others to knock it off.  
i quoted a well-known F-trainer, a graduate of a world-renowned training program - IOW a reputable source; 
and i added no personal remarks; no challenging, posturing, leg-lifting contests or rudeness. 
cheers, 
--- terry


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> speaking of Public-Relations + mass-appeal and all that - may i tactfully remark, *janice,
> that this is unlikely to win-over those who are un-committed or entirely ignorant of Himself.
> 
> and to quote one of my old-fashioned neighbors speaking to a rude boy,
> ...


*And i said in my 1st reply i had read the link.your point?*


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *If i've offended you than i'm sorry.However i am sick and tired of the endless posts regarding CM.I've been here long enough to know there are those for him and those against.I just wished that we could all have our view without numerous threads about the guy.*


We all have views on all sorts of things - hunting, docking, breeding, pedigree Vs crossbreeds, rescue policies etc etc. If we omitted to have threads on things people have firm views about, the forum would be a boring and dull place (and very quiet!). 

People have a choice though. They can skip past the thread, especially if the topic is obvious from the title given to it. Or, they can join in and risk having their views challenged as not all will agree. Variety is the spice of life.


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Ye these c.m. threads are very old hat now, cant see why anyone should care anymore who likes him and who doesnt, but these threads keep coming up. He does seem very much "picked on"  when ime sure theres others involved with animals that we dont all agree on.


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> Ye these c.m. threads are very old hat now, cant see why anyone should care anymore who likes him and who doesnt, but these threads keep coming up. He does seem very much "picked on"  when ime sure theres others involved with animals that we dont all agree on.


Oh there are. Like Brad Pattison. (He who smacks dogs in the face and gets nasty when found out) and Jan Fennell. (who spouts old fashioned stuff and splits eardrums with that voice!) 

I'm more against the promotion of old fashioned, domination methodology. I don't care who the personality is behind it.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> ...(CM/DW) does seem very much "picked on"  when ime sure theres others involved with animals that we dont all agree on.


hey, h-m! :--)

oh, Himself need not feel special -  i do not defend, promote, suggest or praise ANY aversive-method, 
painful tool, or domineering tactic - not Sit-Means-S*it, not prong-collars, not hanging or helicoptering a-La many police, 
not Leerburgs suggestions for dogs who resist... *there are PLENTY of methods and trainers promoting them, 
that i find inhumane, ludicrously outdated, excessively forceful, counter-productive or confrontational - *

*Big Clue - *
if the dog is always portrayed as being *wrong* or automatically is cast in the role of *adversary*, 
while the human is always the enlightening savior - redeeming the poor dogs inherently sinful state - 
 then its a flagrant sign that this is poor training at its best, *and at its worst, 
it creates the very behaviors that it condemns + claims to eradicate. *

as just ONE example - 
Alpha-rolling or pinning a dog against resistance **creates greater resistance the next time**, possibly augmented 
in the future by previously never-exhibited behaviors - like air-snapping, growls when the dog is pushed, bites, etc.


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> hey, h-m! :--)
> 
> oh, Himself need not feel special -  i do not defend, promote, suggest or praise ANY aversive-method,
> painful tool, or domineering tactic - not Sit-Means-S*it, not prong-collars, not hanging or helicoptering a-La many police,
> ...


True. I think it is just that CM is very much at the forefront of 'quick-fix training' and sadly has chosen to use and promote methods that were becoming unacceptable before, having started to give way to more intelligent, fairer ways of rehabilitating dogs. As the one most prominent in supporting these methods, it is natural that he should incur the bulk of the criticism. After all, JF has now faded into the background where TV is concerned and BP, well he never has really 'made it' has he?


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> Ye these c.m. threads are very old hat now, cant see why anyone should care anymore who likes him and who doesnt, but these threads keep coming up. He does seem very much "picked on"  when ime sure theres others involved with animals that we dont all agree on.


*My honest oppion is, its done to start arguements.Some people need to get a life.But hey ho the more threads about Cesar the more they make his name known.:thumbup::thumbup:*


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> (promoting) 'quick-fix training' ... JF has now faded into the background where TV is concerned and BP, well he never has really 'made it' has he?


JF = the Listener, who is IMO deaf in at least one ear + doesn;t hear too well with the other 

Vlad Prattison has IMO mostly made a lot of noise - and also IMO, quite a few unhappy dogs... its not as tho they all 
gambol + frisk to greet Vlad the Bad Dog Handler, the next time they see him.


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> JF = the Listener, who is IMO deaf in at least one ear + doesn;t hear too well with the other
> 
> Vlad Prattison has IMO mostly made a lot of noise - and also IMO, quite a few unhappy dogs... its not as tho they all
> gambol + frisk to greet Vlad the Bad Dog Handler, the next time they see him.


This is true. I am rather glad that Vlad has shot himself in the foot so early on in his TV career. He also is at a distinct advantage that he does not come across as likable - in fact I have yet to meet a fan of his! :001_cool:

Oh and when you 'get a life' Terry, will you get me one too? I could do with a spare one! Thanks! :thumbup:


----------



## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *.But hey ho the more threads about Cesar the more they make his name known.:thumbup::thumbup:*


In nearly every thread about him there is usually at least one person who comes into the light and sees him for what he really is and I don't mean a trainer, behaviourist or whatever he's calling himself now. Out of interest has he at last had some kind of training or is he still just using the knowledge that he was born with :lol:.

Terri


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Kinski said:


> In nearly every thread about him there is usually at least one person who comes into the light and sees him for what he really is and I don't mean a trainer, behaviourist or whatever he's calling himself now. Out of interest has he at last had some kind of training or is he still just using the knowledge that he was born with :lol:.
> 
> Terri


*I've never heard him call himself anything.He does however state he rehabilitates dogs and trains people.Was he born with the knowledge he has?thats something i didn't know.My understanding was he learnt from his father and grandfather.*


----------



## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Was he born with the knowledge he has?thats something i didn't know.My understanding was he learnt from his father and grandfather.*


In his first lot of shows he used to say in the title that he was born with the knowledge, I think it's been dropped now. I read somewhere that his dad was a photographer and he learnt about dogs from watching a pack of wild dogs that roamed his grandad's farm.

Terri


----------



## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I've never heard him call himself anything.He does however state he rehabilitates dogs and trains people.Was he born with the knowledge he has?thats something i didn't know.My understanding was he learnt from his father and grandfather.*


But he's not training people, because he doesn't teach the dog owners anything. He sometimes says some mumbo jumbo about energies, but nothing concrete. Then he takes over the dog, does some jerking, shocking, kicking and/or pinning to the floor and then gives it back "rehabilitated".

In the earlier shows he said something about knowledge he was born with in the beginning of each show, but I don't think he does that anymore.


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

_"My job is to help people to understand what dogs really need. … My dream is to share the knowledge that I was born with, with the rest of the world."_ This is what he used to say at the beginning of earlier episodes. I suppose that explains why he has never had to do any up to date learning and research on behaviour and canine body language then? ::shrugs:: 

As for what he teaches, he gives NO tips or tools that can be implemented, just a load of ill informed psychobabble about 'energeeeeeeeeeee' and 'calm, submissive states' along with 'yard dominant', 'fear dominant', 'excited dominant' etc statements after totally misreading the dogs actual body language. Oh yes, he does trot out the mantra about 'discipline, exercise & affection' etc but that's nothing unique! Most pet owners know that already and many, many dog trainers and rehabilitators have stated that long before him! 

He is also bitten so darned much! What does that say about him? That he deals so much with so called 'red zone dogs' so it's inevitible? Or because he misreads dogs and then pushes them beyond their limits? I have helped many owners with dangerous, unpredictable, confused, poorly treated dogs in the past. Was I ever bitten, even nipped like Cesar is? No! Even when I was a dog warden and had to single handedly catch and restrain a lot of aggressive dogs, I NEVER got bitten! Confronting, prodding, choking, pinning down already stressed out, confused and frightened dogs is pure folly and indicative of someone just wanting to look macho and clever. It ends in a bite, normally a fear bite, which Cesar never seems to learn from.

He obviously was not born with common sense as well then. :confused1:


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Oh and when you 'get a life' Terry, will you get me one too? I could do with a spare one! Thanks! :thumbup:


i;ll try to pick up a wholesale lot of a half-dozen, caro - 
then we can share them out.  a spare would be wonderful - i could send my alter-ego on vacation. :thumbup:

anybody else looking for a spare life?  sign-up on the bulletin-board, limited quantity... 
cheers, 
--- terry


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Here is a run down of Season One where, at the beginning of 26 episodes he states _"My dream is to share the *knowledge that I was born with* to the rest of the world."_ :lol:
Cesar Millan The Dog Whisperer Season 1 Episode 1-5,
What a ridiculous statement to make though?


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

I feel sorry for dogs subjected to Cesar Millan's training methods | Facebook

sent in a blog-post by RETRIEVERMAN...


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

I joined that one the other day Terry. Why? Because I DO feel sorry for dogs whose owners subject them to CMs 'techniques' despite the 'don't do this at home' warning at the beginning of the show.


----------



## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Here is a run down of Season One where, at the beginning of 26 episodes he states _"My dream is to share the *knowledge that I was born with* to the rest of the world."_ :lol:
> 
> What a ridiculous statement to make though?


I knew it was something like that just couldn't remember the whole thing.
My sister has a box that lets the powers that be know what she's watching, she refuses to watch CM as she doesn't want to boost his ratings.

Terri


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

LOL!!:lol: You just got to watch this! I have been in stitches here! *The Gran Whisperer*


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

:001_tt1: wow, he is so good with that obstreperous gran! :thumbup: 
my hero... :001_wub: 





i want to have his puppies... :001_wub:


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> i want to have his puppies... :001_wub:


LOL! Now you are being 'Maternal-Dominant' Terry, tssstttt!


----------



## JjPhoenix (Jan 6, 2010)

*Dog trying to dominate your world?
DateMonday, January 4, 2010 at 23:00
By Rosie Barclay BSc (Hons) MPhil CCAB

Have you ever been told that your dogs behavioural problem is due to it trying to dominate you? Have you read or seen on television that your dog is behaving badly because it wants to take over as Alpha male? Or told that your dog is defying you to become leader of the pack? If the answer is yes then you have to ask yourself are you being given the correct advice. The answer to this is quite simply no you are not. Your dog is not trying to dominate your world; it never has or ever will do. There is no such job description within a group of domestic dogs as the Dominant Dog, the Alpha Male or Leader of the Pack. Surprised?

As a certified clinical animal behaviourist (CCAB) and a member of the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors (APBC) working in Jersey I am hearing more and more from well meaning dog owners that they are worried that their dog is trying to take over this leader role and showing problem behaviour as a result. They hear this from celebrated dog trainers on popular television programmes and by reading their respective best selling books so its no surprise that the myth of the Alpha male has now circulated widely around the USA and in the UK and is now prominent in Jersey.

This dominance theory relating to dogs living in groups has been in circulation for many years and qualified behaviourists throughout the globe have begun to move away from this as it became clear that domestic dog groups simply do not operate in this way.

The dominance theory originally stemmed from wolf behaviour in captivity where unrelated wolves are kept together in small areas. Certain wolves in these groups were observed to be showing behaviour that looked as if there was a hierarchy in place. However, research on wild wolves suggests that wolf packs are not rigidly controlled by a single domineering male. A wild pack usually has an alpha pair but most of the rest of the pack is that pairs offspring. That means the lead male never fought for dominance but merely reproduced. This father wolf does not always lead during hunts or in anything else for that matter. The term alpha is no longer used because what it implies is not accurate.

Domestic dogs on the other hand have lived with humans for 15,000 years, and they evolved as scavengers, not hunters. So it is not legitimate to compare dogs with wolves and wolf packs. The evolutionary pressure on dogs was that the least shy animals were the most successful in ransacking human refuse. Todays free-roaming dogs live in small, less cohesive groups rather than packs and are often alone. They compete with each other for resources but not for the top position of the pack.

To illustrate this more clearly I will describe a common situation that occurs regularly when I visit households with several dogs and humans living together. It will become obvious very quickly that the owners have been watching the many dog behaviour programmes seen on the television and will tell me that they know who there dominant dog is. So I will nod sagely and ask which one that is and the conversation usually goes a bit like this:

Well Lardy the Labrador is the Alpha male because when hes eating his dinner he wont let any of the other dogs or my husband go anywhere near him. Sometimes he growls and goes to snap at them and they keep away. They stop and think for a while and then continue. Unless its a ball and then Shep the Collie is the boss because he wont allow any of the other dogs in the house or any other dog in the world for that matter go anywhere near him when he has the ball. Then the husband might come in at this stage and point out that When Baby the Pomeranian is sitting on your lap dear she is the boss because she tries to bite me if I try and sit next to you. At which point I refer back to the original question and ask So which one is leading your pack again? And the confusion sets in as to which one is actually leader of the pack and a fierce debate ensues. Of course the answer is none of them are. They are simply defending the resources they are most interested in. Just like any group of humans that find themselves placed together they all have different wants, needs, strengths and weaknesss and they all behave differently to achieve a feeling of contentment. Some dogs are greedier than others so will try hard to find and eat more food. Other dogs need to chase things and will challenge other dogs to make sure they can keep on chasing things. Owners are often viewed as highly prized resources as they are well trained feeding machines, comfy cushions, door openers and they know where the lead is kept. There are dogs that want the lot and are often described as Leaders because it looks as if they in control of everything. But that is because they are in control of all the resources and not because they want to lead the pack.

So does it matter which words we use to describe this resource holding behaviour? Well yes it does because of the way so called dominance problems are being solved by the perpetuators of this belief. If, for instance, you are told your dog is trying to dominate you because it barks and lunges towards other dogs that are approaching, you might be advised to put in place a long list of rules and regulations that show your dog who the boss is. These might include you eating before your dog, ignoring your dog for 5 minutes when you come in, not allowing it onto chairs or walking through doors first. However, this only teaches your dog that you are in control of food resources, your own personal space, your settee and the door way. It doesnt address the problem your dog may have with other dogs. You might then be advised that when another dog approaches to use techniques such as the alpha roll (where your dog is rolled onto its back, a submissive position) or to grab the back of its neck with a firm Grrrr or to use a pressure halter and force your dogs head away from the approaching dog. There are also those that advocate the use of shaking containers filled with stones, pet corrector cans that give off a loud ear splitting blast and water/citronella sprays that deliver a shot of water or lemon smelling liquid into your dogs face amongst many other similar suggestions. Some well known celebrity behaviourists use of a number of punishment devices and out dated correction techniques that are simply not advised in todays more enlightened society. Some devices such as the Electric Shock collar have already been banned in Scotland and Wales.

However, what are you really teaching your dog? What if your dog was not barking and lunging at other dogs because it wants to lead the pack. What if it was doing this because it was nervous of the other dogs intentions so makes sure it tells the other dog not to come too close? You cant convince your dog not to be scared of another dog if it gets punished every time it sees one.

What if your dog has learned that all approaching dogs means that it suddenly feels pain as the lead is tightened, a can of stones is shaken, it hears a loud ear splitting sound or receives a spray of stinging liquid in the eye. Or worse still it feels the pain of an electric shock. Just because you the owner has the ability to imagine what might happen next doesnt mean your dog can. It may never understand that the owner is cross and that bad things happen because of what it might do in a few seconds time. It only learns that when another dog approaches its not a very nice experience so tries to stop it happening by the only way it knows how. My advice to owners if they are unsure of whether to use a certain correction device is would you use it your children?

There are some dogs that do try and assert their strengths and challenge other dogs to show how big and strong they are but not because they are trying to lead the pack but for a number of other different reasons which might include guarding their ball, their owners, their personal space or they may be doing it because it feels good and thus self rewarding. There are certainly behavioural modification programmes that we can put in place to make sure that our dogs are not challenging us over ownership of certain resources and to stop reinforced self rewarding behaviour but the dogs are not challenging us to reach the mythical Alpha position.

To copy the techniques directly from some of these television programmes may by detrimental to the welfare of your dog so before you jump onto the dominant bandwagon think about all the authentic reasons why your dog might be showing these behaviours because it wont be due to it wanting to dominate your world and keep away from anyone who says they know just the way to deal with dominating behaviour alpha males and pack leaders.*


----------



## JjPhoenix (Jan 6, 2010)

What′s wrong with using 'dominance&rs to explain the behaviour of dogs?

these are the chapters:

_What′s Wrong with Using Dominance to Explain the Behaviour of Dogs?

If Not Dominance...How do we Explain the Development of Social Behaviour?

What are the Implications of Using Training Techniques Which Induce Fear or Pain in Dogs?

Should I Follow Status Reduction Programmes with my Dog?

How do I Find a Suitable Dog Training Course?

What do I do if my Dog has a Behaviour Problem?_


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

JjPhoenix, brilliant c/p and links thanks!  There's so much up to date information out there only people would look further than their TV screens and educate themselves instead of swooning over a seductive voice and flashy programming!


----------



## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

I found the article interesting and a good read, thanks Terry :thumbup:

TBH I dont think it was posted to start arguements, I think it was something sent to or found by Terry and she thought it'd be of interest to some members. 

Its other members who repeatedly come onto threads and stur things up causing arguements... If you dont like reading anti CM threads... DONT CLICK ON THEM :thumbup:


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

I'm not a dog trainer or anything lol, so anything i say is just based on my own experience and my own dogs . Barney is currently testing for the 'big man' status as i call it in the house, he will try and pin the other dogs down the same way CM does it. Pack leaders, dominance ect most definately exist between my three dogs. I do think that the dogs know the difference between another dog an a person. I don't think that when my dogs ignore me they are being dominant over me - i think they are just caught up in whatever they are doing or there is something more interesting that me :lol:. Alot of what CM says makes sense - but i don't think this spreads to humans because the behaviour my dogs show each they don't show me. I might not be making any sense here lol :lol:. There is pack leaders, there is pinning down, there is walking in front of each other, trying to be higher than each other using furniture ect - but only amongst the dogs, i don't think this kind of thing can be attributed to people, i don't think dogs make the connection. In other words i don't think dogs are that stupid - they know the difference between people and dogs and they treat them much differently. I think CM is great with dog on dog issues - but alot of other things i don't really like. Sorry if i don't make sense lol and ovbiously i'm not as qualified as everyone else on this thread - just my opinion and my experience really  x


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> ...I don't think that *when my dogs ignore me they are being dominant over me - i think they are just
> caught up in whatever they are doing or there is something more interesting than me. :lol: *


* 
OMG, bugsy!  that is Dominance -  how could anything be more interesting than U? :huh: impossible... 
how DARE those dogs demean U in that fashion! :eek6:

U need to teach them a lesson. :nono: U need to get out there and show those &$%#@! dogs 
that there aint NUTHIN as interesting as U are - :thumbup: U gotta uphold the human-reputation, 
hun - we are counting on U to help prevent the k9-insurrection world-wide. :yikes: we need U to be 
as riveting as a snake-charmer to a cobra - :thumbsup: as magnetic as sheep for a Border Collie! :thumbup: 

we need U to man-up and go out there, and win one for the Gipper... :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: 
(distant roar of crowd... swelling triumphal orchestra... ) 
we need U to go *wow* those dogs!... 
knock their socks off, stand-up and be counted! 
score one for our side!... :thumbup:... oops -  sorry, i got carried away... :blush2: 



Fuzzbugs!x said:



bold added - 

...i don't think this spreads to humans because the behaviour my dogs show each other, they don't show me... 
only amongst the dogs, i don't think this kind of thing can be attributed to people, i don't think dogs make the connection. 
In other words i don't think dogs are that stupid - they know the difference between people and dogs 
and they treat them much differently. 

Click to expand...

Hurrah, bugsy! :thumbup: hip, hip, HURRAH! :thumbup: :thumbup: 
got it in one... :001_tt2: outta the mouths of babes, eh? 
:thumbup: brilliant summary, good on ya! *


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

YouTube - Family Guy - "Lady & The Tramp...and Michael Vick" (Real Clip)


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

sid&kira said:


> Its other members who repeatedly come onto threads and stur things up causing arguements... If you dont like reading anti CM threads... DONT CLICK ON THEM :thumbup:


Amen to that! Or, they could try looking at it with an open mind and actually read some of the links we present before they cast judgement? After all, that's how most of us have learned, through doing further research even though we may have though we knew all we needed to know about our subject. No harm in examining what you already know and re-evaluating. 



Fuzzbugs!x said:


> I don't think that when my dogs ignore me they are being dominant over me - i think they are just caught up in whatever they are doing or there is something more interesting that me :lol:.


That's just it. They're dogs! Do we pay attention immediately all of the time? Are we being 'dominant' if we get sidetracked?:confused1:



Fuzzbugs!x said:


> In other words i don't think dogs are that stupid - they know the difference between people and dogs and they treat them much differently.


Exactly! Of course they know we're not dogs - that's why we confuse them so easily! Dogs are pretty awesome when you think about it? They learn what our sounds mean yet how often do we bother to learn what their sounds really mean? No, we just 'assume' we know and label them as 'dominant' or 'defiant' when in actual fact, they are probably confused or bored!

Your opinion is very valid here and thanks for that! You are an enlightened dog owner, thinking about things rather than blindly following what's shown on TV and hero worshipping a manufactured celeb. :thumbup:


----------



## JjPhoenix (Jan 6, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> JjPhoenix, brilliant c/p and links thanks!  There's so much up to date information out there only people would look further than their TV screens and educate themselves instead of swooning over a seductive voice and flashy programming!


you have to admit e'd make a brilliant polition though! :scared:


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

JjPhoenix said:


> you have to admit e'd make a brilliant polition though! :scared:


 
Noooooo don't say things like that! One of his spies might read it and give him the idea! CM for President? Nooooooooooooooooooooo! He would try to alpha roll Russia and start the cold war again! :lol:


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

during the Nixon years, there was a bill passed to remove New Jersey and cede it to the Russians - 
this was to allow a corresponding strengthening on the other side of the continent, so that California would not fall-off. 
 its all about balance, but i am just a citizen, i am sure our legislators know more about that than lil-old me.  

maybe we could ask CM/DW to serve as governor for life of the state-nation, and park it somewhere more convenient to Moscow - 
maybe in the Balkans, or as an isthmus in the Black Sea?


----------



## JjPhoenix (Jan 6, 2010)

i dont think there is somewhere remote enough to plonk CM where he can do no more damage!








such a horrible man.
did you see him drag the dog up the stairs on a choke chain because it was scared of the stairs? the dog was lying down and he dragged it all the way up hanging by the chain.


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

JjPhoenix said:


> did you see him drag the dog up the stairs on a choke chain because it was scared of the stairs? the dog was lying down and he dragged it all the way up hanging by the chain.


This one? YouTube - AntiCesarMillan's Channel

A) Why is it so important for the dog to go up the stairs anyway? 
B) Why is CM, who purports to know dog 'psychology', seemingly unable to detect stress and anxiety in such a big, scared puppy?
B) All this Tssst stuff gets right on my wick! Why does he think dogs understand hissing?

The poor animal gave up in the end, not because he had learned anything but because he was exhausted and utterly stressed. :frown:

But the CM Disciples don't see this video or others like it in the same way that we do? But then again, how many of them have actually studied canine body language in a proper sense? Mind you, saying that, I have shown this video to other pet dog owners and even to people who don't actually like dogs that much and they have voiced concerns similar to ours!

I do not hate CM, why would I? I don't know him personally - no more than those who are pro-CM can honestly state that they 'love' him. I just quite simply dislike the fact that he has singlehandedly dragged dog rehabilitation and training right back to the dark ages with his antiquated dominance trash.

I could have taught that dog to do stairs within no time and no, I would not have used a clicker though that could be used if preferred. All it takes is patience and a positive attitude mixed with rewards and encouragement. It does not take brawn and force! It takes brains and empathy to get a dog to overcome it's fear. The dog was NOT being 'stubborn' or 'dominant'! It was scared!


----------



## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> B) All this Tssst stuff gets right on my wick! Why does he think dogs understand hissing?


They only 'understand' tssst after some work to associate the sound with impending shock, jerk or poke


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

tripod said:


> They only 'understand' tssst after some work to associate the sound with impending shock, jerk or poke


Which is possibly why he likes to be alone with the dog away from the families eyes, to 'prime' it for the TV cameras - as in this clip. 

It was saddening to see the pups demeanour totally alter from start to finish. I would be thoroughly ashamed if I had that effect on a dog. :nono:


----------



## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

tripod said:


> They only 'understand' tssst after some work to associate the sound with impending shock, jerk or poke


Quite. You can "tssst" at my dogs until you're blue in the face and they just look at you. In fact I've never met a dog yet who naturally has the same reaction to a "tssst" that a CM victim has. I always thought that was odd until I realised he was pairing it with an aversive of some sort.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*lmao at some of the rubbish thats been written on here.IF any of you actualy watched the guys programe instead of just showing links with bits taken from his show,you would know that he uses the tssst in the same way a parent might say oi ot hey to grab a childs attention.He actualy tells people that the tssst is just his way.I can't wait to see the next clip or link.:lol::lol:*


----------



## JjPhoenix (Jan 6, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *lmao at some of the rubbish thats been written on here.IF any of you actualy watched the guys programe instead of just showing links with bits taken from his show,you would know that he uses the tssst in the same way a parent might say oi ot hey to grab a childs attention.He actualy tells people that the tssst is just his way.I can't wait to see the next clip or link.:lol::lol:*


untrue. 

unfortunately the tsst is paired with an aversive, like he doesnt mention his use of shock mats etc the tsst is also paired with an aversive which is there nearly every time he uses tsst, either a kick, a yank on a chain or rope, etc.

Maybe if you learn about dogs body language THEN watch his show you will see the difference.

I will freely admit before I got my first dog, I watched cm religiously, thought he was brilliant, then I got my rescue staff who was petrified of everything including the stairs. Now I was there with my own dog in front of me and my heart broke, there was no way i was dragging my dog with a chain up the stairs that he was scared of when he was too exhausted and petrified to fight anymore. No. With a lot of gentle encouragement, cheese and ham and in his own time he did the stairs all by himself, it took a more hours than cm but yes within the day he had done the stairs.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Cesar Millan Dog Whisperer Faces Criticism - DOG Training TOYS

it seems that in 1994 or sometime thereafter, *cesar* read 2 books - 


> EXCERPT -
> _Millan improved his command of the English language and read books such as The Dogs Mind by Dr. Bruce Fogle and Dog Psychology by Leon F. Whitney. _


i read the dogs mind - 
Amazon.com: The Dog's Mind: Understanding Your Dog's Behavior (Howell reference 
i don;t recall anything in it that promoted harsh aversives, choke-collars, and other tools or techniques as shown on TV.

Amazon.com: Dog Psychology; The Basis of Dog Training, (9780876055205): Leon F. Whitney: Books 
Dog-Psych was written in 1975 - CM according to the blog-entry was born Aug-1969. 
he was 6-YO when it was published, and read it in 1994 - almost 20-years later. 
not exactly cutting-edge, hmmm?

why yank when U can teach? :huh: more enjoyable for both ends of the process. 
happy training, 
--- terry


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Colliepoodle said:


> Quite. You can "tssst" at my dogs until you're blue in the face and they just look at you. In fact I've never met a dog yet who naturally has the same reaction to a "tssst" that a CM victim has. I always thought that was odd until I realised he was pairing it with an aversive of some sort.





JjPhoenix said:


> untrue.
> 
> unfortunately the tsst is paired with an aversive, like he doesnt mention his use of shock mats etc the tsst is also paired with an aversive which is there nearly every time he uses tsst, either a kick, a yank on a chain or rope, etc.
> 
> Maybe if you learn about dogs body language THEN watch his show you will see the difference.


My dogs associate 'Tssst!' with the cat. It's the noise I use to tell the cat to quit eyeing my hamster up! :lol: Now, no matter where we are, if I make the Tsst sound, the dogs go off looking for Ziggy! (the cat!)



> why yank when U can teach? :huh: more enjoyable for both ends of the process.


Well Terry, it takes a lot more than reading two books to learn how to teach a dog and owner. I read upteen books from the tender age of 11 years old to learn more about dogs, behaviour and training. I enjoy teaching a dog, whether to train it or to rehabilitate it. Never had to use brute force and ignorance to achieve a pseudo result. Mind you, never been bitten in the process either despite having worked with some rather hair raising dogs in my time. Maybe I read the wrong books? Have I been doing it wrong all this time?


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Colliepoodle said:


> You can "tssst" at my dogs until you're blue in the face and they just look at you.


:laugh: before CM/DW was even a 30-min NON-prime-time program on Natl-Geo, i was using a very-soft sibilant 
thru my teeth as my _super-secret silent attention-signal_ with my Akita-girl - 
wherever we were, whatever we were doing, that sound meant, _look at me - we are about to do 
Something Different, this is important! _ and it worked - she would hear it, snap her head around, 
and look directly at my face, with a big question-mark in her eyes - *so what are we doing?...*

it was the last cue she ever heard, as she was on the exam table and growling at the ER-Dr who was trying 
to insert the syringe in her catheter - i said _psst,_ her head turned + eyes riveted on mine, + i held my index-finger 
up beside my face... _*Wait... *_ and she did.

exercise finished... praise Ur dogs! _ good, good girl - free time! 
i;ll see U at the Bridge, with my other dear friends gone before... _


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Well Terry, it takes a lot more than reading two books to learn how to teach a dog and owner.


maybe we should start a suggested-reading list for CM/DW?... :001_cool: good idea, i like it! 


CarolineH said:


> I read umpteen books from the tender age of 11 years old to learn more about dogs, behaviour and training.


i started reading about dogs at 9-YO and was training with my puppy at 10-YO... because of my birthday 
being late in the year, i was always a year younger than my classmates.  i was teased my freshman-year 
of college about my age, too. 


CarolineH said:


> Mind you, never been bitten in the process either despite having worked with some rather hair raising dogs in my time.
> Maybe I read the wrong books? Have I been doing it wrong all this time?


_*THATS why neither of us has a prime-time TV-show! 
we don;t get *bitten* often enough - i mean, one 12-WO puppy in over 25-years for me, 
none for U... wheres the drama? :confused1: wheres the thrill? well, i sure am glad we got that sorted - 
but i don;t know if being on national-TV is worth pushing a dog into biting me. :huh: i;ll have to think about it.

a trainer saying that > I < just this moment made-up: 
a dog-bite is like snow: U can never be sure how long it will last, how deep it will get, 
or how much of a mess it will leave behind. *_ 
for more teaching and less fighting with dogs - and fewer bites,  
--- terry


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

JjPhoenix said:


> untrue.
> 
> unfortunately the tsst is paired with an aversive, like he doesnt mention his use of shock mats etc the tsst is also paired with an aversive which is there nearly every time he uses tsst, either a kick, a yank on a chain or rope, etc.
> 
> ...


*Excuse me, but what i wrote is 100% true.God i watch all his programes and have heard him say it..Oh don't tell me....its all in my head.*


----------



## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Gonna get me some popcorn 

I love you guys (there may be some - I mean a lot of alcohol involved :lol


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sequeena said:


> Gonna get me some popcorn


oooohhh, _Goody! _  i love air-popped with nutritional-yeast and parmesan-cheese, :thumbup: whats Ur favorite?

i have a new DVD to watch - *Am I Safe?* about dog-evaluations, U wanna watch, too? :001_cool: 
bring yer own popcorn + beverage...


----------



## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> oooohhh, _Goody! _  i love air-popped with nutritional-yeast and parmesan-cheese, :thumbup: whats Ur favorite?
> 
> i have a new DVD to watch - *Am I Safe?* about dog-evaluations, U wanna watch, too? :001_cool:
> bring yer own popcorn + beverage...


Nah think I'll give it a miss tonight Terry. Got the OH home so don't think we'll be watching much of anything iykwim 

I prefer salted popcorn. The saltier the better


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

I am afraid I am a bit of a wuss so it's toffee popcorn for me!


----------



## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Excuse me, but what i wrote is 100% true.God i watch all his programes and have heard him say it..Oh don't tell me....its all in my head.*


Do you honestly imagine that it's simply that he's the ONLY person who can do the RIGHT sort of "tssst" to make a dog flinch and cringe away like the dogs on the show do??

Seriously, why do you think that his "tsst" makes them do that? How come my dogs don't do it? How come all the other people who say their dogs don't, don't??

EVERY SINGLE DOG I've seen him "tssst" at on his shows doesn't just prick an ear - they all react as if they've been stung or kicked. Point me in the direction of a show where he says "Well, this dog does not react to my TSSSST".....


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Colliepoodle said:


> Seriously, why do you think that his "tsst" makes them do that? How come my dogs don't do it? How come all the other people who say their dogs don't, don't??
> 
> EVERY SINGLE DOG I've seen him "tssst" at on his shows doesn't just prick an ear - they all react as if they've been stung or kicked. Point me in the direction of a show where he says "Well, this dog does not react to my TSSSST".....


Precisely. It is a conditioned 'Tssst', just as mine is. The difference is that dogs react to his Tssst in a fearful way, because thats how he has conditioned them to react. Mine think it means 'the cat'! If I conditioned a dog to the 'Tssst' meaning that they were going to be fed, they would start to salivate in anticipation, just like Pavlovs dogs in his experiment. ( http://www3.niu.edu/acad/psych/Millis/History/2003/ClassicalConditioning.htm ) If however I conditioned them to associate 'Tsssst' with a smack on the head, they would show fear and duck as soon as I tsssted! Simples! :001_cool:

Some folks are too blinded by adulation and lurve to see what we mean though.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> Do you honestly imagine that it's simply that he's the ONLY person who can do the RIGHT sort of "tssst" to make a dog flinch and cringe away like the dogs on the show do??
> 
> Seriously, why do you think that his "tsst" makes them do that? How come my dogs don't do it? How come all the other people who say their dogs don't, don't??
> 
> EVERY SINGLE DOG I've seen him "tssst" at on his shows doesn't just prick an ear - they all react as if they've been stung or kicked. Point me in the direction of a show where he says "Well, this dog does not react to my TSSSST".....


*I don't imagine anything.:lol::lol:*


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Cesar Millan - The Dog Whisperer: Critics Answers


----------



## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> Cesar Millan - The Dog Whisperer: Critics Answers


Interesting link Terry.

I liked this bit...

"Do aversive methods work? By the laws of operant conditioning, positive punishment and negative reinforcement do work. However, what the average viewer sees on the show is not changed behavior, with a few exceptions. What the average viewer sees on the show is suppressed behavior. Just because the dog is not barking, lunging or growling does not mean that it is rehabilitated."

I have a question about that...

Aren't all "rules and laws" designed to supress behaviour?

When I'm driving in my car, I don't go over 30MPH in a residential street. Not because I am a re-habilited person, but simply because I am "surpressing" the desire to go faster incase I get a fine.

Surely, if reward and punishment (or carrot and stick as we tend to call it) doesn't work with dogs, we should re-evaluate how we treat humans too?

How would you stop me going over 30MPH without giving me a fine or other punishment?


----------



## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

Janice I bought myself this book Canine Body Language: A Photographic Guide: Interpreting the Native Language of the Domestic Dog: Amazon.co.uk: Brenda Aloff: Books a couple of years a go, perhaps if you got it or a similar book, had a good look at it then went back and looked at CM's programmes you might see what he is actually doing to the dogs he ''rehabilitates'', with a bit of luck you will see what the majority of dog owners/lovers have been seeing for years.

Terri


----------



## Guest (Jun 9, 2010)

If you are looking purely at the dogs body language, turn off the sound on the tv so you cant hear his wittering, it is painfully obviously the dogs often give off unhappy, uncomfortable or fearful body language. Its not submissive body language, its stressful body language.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Kinski said:


> Janice I bought myself this book Canine Body Language: A Photographic Guide: Interpreting the Native Language of the Domestic Dog: Amazon.co.uk: Brenda Aloff: Books a couple of years a go, perhaps if you got it or a similar book, had a good look at it then went back and looked at CM's programmes you might see what he is actually doing to the dogs he ''rehabilitates'', with a bit of luck you will see what the majority of dog owners/lovers have been seeing for years.
> 
> Terri


*Without being rude,i have had dogs for the best part of 40+ years and i wouldn't buy a book to tell me about its body language,no more than i would buy a dvd of Cesars,as much as i admire the guy.People will find fault with just about anything and anyone,so my idea is plain and simple.These continous debates about CM imo is nothing but scare mungering which doesn't was with me.*


----------



## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

classixuk said:


> Interesting link Terry.
> 
> I liked this bit...
> 
> ...


But you are driving below 30 MPH to avoid punishment. If you instead were paid to drive below 30 MPH I'd imagine you'd do i happily.

However, you're right that human rules and laws are designed to suppress behaviour and is based on punishment. And that's probably necessary in our society, at least in some cases (to be honest I was shocked by how much focus it is on punishment in British schools, and I don't believe that's good for learning). That's also probably the reason why so many think it necessary to punish our dogs.

But when I train my dogs I don't want to suppress behaviours, I want to teach them alternative behaviours. For example, I don't want my dogs to run outside as soon as I open the door. I could have taught them that by using positive punishment and in that case I would have suppressed the bahaviour. But I didn't teach them like that. I simply waited for them to sit and when they both did I opened the door and let them out. Should they try to run out before my command I immidiately closed the door and waited for them to sit That way they learned a different behaviour (sit instead of running out the door) that leads to a reward (going outside).

In my opinion teaching alternative behaviours that the dog does for a reward is much more effective and that is why I choose to clicker train them.


----------



## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *I don't imagine anything.:lol::lol:*


So would you mind answering the other questions in my post?

IE -

Why do you think dogs react so strongly and negatively to Cesar's "tssst"?
Why doesn't every dog react the same? Mine doesn't, and lots of people say theirs don't either.
Why does EVERY dog on his show have the same reaction?


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> So would you mind answering the other questions in my post?
> 
> IE -
> 
> ...


*Firstly i dont agree that the dogs act in a negative way.
Secondly i do believe dogs act differently with different people.
Thirdly, i'm not sure what you mean by every dog reacts the same.*


----------



## Guest (Jun 9, 2010)

Colliepoodle said:


> So would you mind answering the other questions in my post?
> 
> IE -
> 
> ...


OK, i do strongly dislike CM but i feel i should say that people do react to peope differently based on their stance, body language etc.

We had a CM-esque trainer that until I realised after the suggestion of a shock collar, I went to training classes.
This man had never been alone with my dog, so i know he hadnt done anything.

However when he refused to take us to class with a check chain on, and buster continually pulled and tried to choke himself on it, despite me "checking". This "man" took the lead and buster immediately froze. he walked perfectly, his ears were flat his tail between his legs...something about this mans body language made buster appear "submissive" (or fearful). I left when he couldnt figure out why buster wouldnt walk to heel for me despite his magic check chain, and he suggested a prong collar instead! And shock collar for recall.

In the end, i turned to clicker training and got the desired effect that way! With my dog looking happy, relaxed and eager to please. But something made buste appear submissive to this man, without him ever abusing my dog (unless you cound check chains as abuse). So maybe something about CM's stance or his own body language, backed up with the short sharp noise, is effecting the dogs reaction?

/devils advocate


----------



## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Without being rude,i have had dogs for the best part of 40+ years and i wouldn't buy a book to tell me about its body language,no more than i would buy a dvd of Cesars,as much as i admire the guy.People will find fault with just about anything and anyone,so my idea is plain and simple.These continous debates about CM imo is nothing but scare mungering which doesn't was with me.*


Not rude at all Janice . I know people who have had dogs for many years and you would be astonished at how little they know dogs, I also know people who have only had dogs a few years and they have a much wider/better knowledge on how dogs work, unfortunately owning dogs for a good many years doesn't necessarily mean that someone knows how they work, obviously I'm not meaning yourself when I'm saying that.

Terri


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Kinski said:


> Janice I bought myself this book Canine Body Language: A Photographic Guide: Interpreting the Native Language of the Domestic Dog: Amazon.co.uk: Brenda Aloff: Books a couple of years a go, perhaps if you got it or a similar book, had a good look at it then went back and looked at CM's programmes you might see what he is actually doing to the dogs he ''rehabilitates'', with a bit of luck you will see what the majority of dog owners/lovers have been seeing for years.
> 
> Terri


I have that book myself and yes, it is very good. I also learned through Turid Ruugas and her 'Calming Signals'. Sadly though, some people are too blinded and bound by their own opinions to be able to move on and evolve their understanding. After all, embracing new knowledge can be like losing face to some people. *The reason I bought books and dvds was to educate myself and open my mind.*



classixuk said:


> Surely, if reward and punishment (or carrot and stick as we tend to call it) doesn't work with dogs, we should re-evaluate how we treat humans too?


I have always maintained that education should go hand in hand with legislation but unfortinately that takes too long, especially for todays fast moving society. To afford humans a reward for good behaviour on the roads would undoubtedly work to improve things, just as it does with children but would be too costly and take too long. It would be much more successful though.



Savahl said:


> In the end, i turned to clicker training and got the desired effect that way! With my dog looking happy, relaxed and eager to please. But something made buste appear submissive to this man, without him ever abusing my dog (unless you cound check chains as abuse). So maybe something about CM's stance or his own body language, backed up with the short sharp noise, is effecting the dogs reaction?
> 
> /devils advocate


Dogs are indeed amazingly perceptive and can often warn us of someones true character even if they appear to be 'nice' on the outside. For instance, I met a man once who was working in my sisters shop who seemed so charming on the surface. My previous collie who was normally very people friendly, was with me. He backed away and snarled, quite out of character believe me!  All he wanted to do was get out of the shop so I had to take him home. A few months later, my sister found out that this seemingly lovely man was in fact an animal and bird smuggler, the type who packed parrots into false suitcase bottoms. He also had convictions for animal cruelty which he had not disclosed!  Now how did my dog know that?


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Cesar Millan Dog Whisperer Faces Criticism - DOG Training TOYS

persist thru page-2, its worth reading to the end. 

personally, i have Aloff, Rugaas, *and* Handleman as body-lingo refs, each IMO valuable to me. having some idea 
what the dog is thinking / feeling or their emotional-state + general intentions are key to me; i would no more wade in 
+ start yanking and shoving than i would work blindfolded with a dog, horse or human - U lose way-too-much data.

cheers, 
- terry


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> Cesar Millan Dog Whisperer Faces Criticism - DOG Training TOYS
> 
> persist thru page-2, its worth reading to the end.
> 
> ...


*Ok so i've read the 1st 2 pages,what is your point? They only speak about how Cesar started.*


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

She said


> its worth reading to the end


  In other words, read to the end, not just page 1 and 2.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Dog Whisperer to Critics: My Techniques Are "Instinctual" 


> EXCERPT From Page-2 - *bold added - *
> 
> _[N-G] You've worked with choke collars, flat collars, and head haltis [training tools that look
> something like muzzles] on the show. What's the best type of collar for people to use on their dog, and why?
> ...


it is precisely *how* the tools are used, and *how* the dogs are handled, that caused such serious concern among 
the various professional organizations, from the AHA to AVSAB and AVMA, and the behavioral specialists - 
including *dodman, DVM* the head of Tufts-Univ vet-college behavioral-med, 
and many others - Modern Dog Training vs. Cesar Millan 


> EXCERPT - *quoted under article modern dog-training vs CM*
> 
> _ Dr. Nicholas Dodman -
> Professor and Head, Section of Animal Behavior
> ...




back to Natl-Geos Q+A: 


> EXCERPT From Page-2 - *bold added - *
> 
> _[N-G] You provide the dogs at your facility with a tremendous amount of daily exercise: four hours of hiking
> in the morning, one hour of running while you skate with them in the afternoon, and a 20-minute game
> ...


for those who are not aware - 
* the approx-60 resident-dogs at the FORMER Dog-Psych Center / South-LA were evicted before CM/DW left that property 
to go site-hunting; a few were owned, but the overwhelming majority were un-adoptable, and either dog or human-aggro. 
they were re-claimed by the various shelters + rescue-groups who owned them, with 60-days notice over the T-day and 
Xmas holidays period. 
* the dogs were boarded for $15/dog/day, not rehabilitated or retrained individually but simply held, exercised, and fed. 
* from my reading of cesars way, when i added it up, the aerobic exercise totaled 7-hrs of every 24 - 
i would have to go back to the book to verify that, and i do not have a copy, but can + will check the next-opp 
that i have, and will get page-refs.

re the bigger-pack + longer-migration statement, _*i have never heard any reference to this by any other person.* 
IMO this is a handy personal-explanation, vs a factual statement._

cheers, 
---- terry


----------



## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

Janice: When i first came to these forums I was shocked at this seeming 'hatred' of CM. But I agree with Terry.

His methods are uneccesery, not so nice. And his philosophys incorrect.

I believe he means well. But, after reading upon body language and looking at the program with another perspective I have to agree positive reinforcement is the way to go!

Recently we got Star a clicker and her training has really come on! She's just mastered 'limp' and can do a few steps, I know this is a uselesscommand but it kept her challenged and plus it took me ages so i'm really happy.

I agree with Cesar on

-Calm, assertive energy, being calm is important and dogs do pick up on excitement.
-Exercise, Discipline, affection. Lots of dogs are spoilt and all it does is make them annoy me xD 
From my observations, I've noticed star pays most attention/goes for affection from the person who is currently spending the most time walking, and training her


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Daggre said:


> I agree with Cesar on
> 
> -Calm, assertive energy, being calm is important and dogs do pick up on excitement.
> -Exercise, Discipline, affection. Lots of dogs are spoilt and all it does is make them annoy me xD


So do I. I used to teach that in my classes when I ran them for ten years up until about 6 years ago. It's not new advice nor is it a philosophy created by or exclusive to, Millan. He is simply echoing dog behaviourists before him. He did read a couple of books after all.... 

It is purely common sense, nothing extraordinary.


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

This is an interesting link to add to the debate.

Quote - *Dog owners beware! There is evidence to show that some dog training methods can actually make your dog aggressive. *
A study (Survey of the use and outcome of confrontational and non-confrontational training methods in client-owned dogs) showing undesired behaviors was conducted by the Department of Clinical Studies, School of 
Veterinary Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania. The purpose of
this study was to assess the effects and risks of historically used methods to deal with behavior issues.

Full article here (3 pages to read)Can Dog Training Cause Dog Aggression? - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com​


----------



## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

Just wondered, has anybody done a study that COMPARES results?
Although there is a lot of anti 'alpha-rolls- studies out there (not saying I agree with alpha rolling here) I haven't seen one that compares say, 2 agressive dogs being 'rehabilitated' using the two different approaches.


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Hi Daggre  
I don't know of any such studies myself but I have dealt with both human aggressive and dog aggressive dogs in the past myself on numerous occasions using calm, positive methods without the need for physical correction of any sort (physical correction in the case of aggression can be extrememly counter-productive and dangerous) with success, as in the cases of *TESS* and  *GENERAL* to name but two. I think you will find that a lot of modern trainers can relate similar successes. I have never ever been bitten whilst training, rehabilitating or capturing a dog (as back in my *DOG WARDEN DAYS*) so I think that said it all for my approach. 

In my opinion, why cause an already stressed dog even more stress by being tough with it? We are supposed to be the animal with the power to reason etc yet too many are so quick to use force and punishment instead of their brains and intellect.


----------



## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

Thanks for the links though! i'll take a look.

I agree, rolling a stressed an confused dog over onto it's side is not the best idea xD

I want to be a dog behaviourist when I'm older, so I'm trying to get it all in 

-edit-

"After standing back and watching (well it was funny!)"- that made me laugh a lot


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Daggre said:


> ...I haven't seen [a behavioral study] that compares say,
> 2 aggressive dogs being 'rehabilitated' using the two different approaches.


that would be extremely difficult, dagg - 
how would U decide that any 2 dogs are identical in their level of aggro? 
intensity, persistence, threshold, emotional sensitivity?

i just read a really *poor!* study, set-up by Korean researchers, on GSD Fs who were *randomized* into control 
(intact) and variable (desexed) groups, then tested for aggro - *but the eejits never got a baseline for aggro,* 
so they could not even compare the same-dog Before + After, let alone group-data to group-data.  
also, there were only 7 dogs in the study - and all were siblings! :lol:

studying 7 full-sisters of a breed known to be reactive, like all herders with a low-threshold for bark, mouth, snap, 
is a really lousy experimental design. not even getting a behavioral-history on each dog BEFORE spaying the experimental 
group, is another obvious flaw.

experimental designs must be focused on one variable, if at all possible - 
or they must use many, many data-points like the outcome of THOUSANDS of dogs, as they do in medicine, 
to say things like, _the risk of this side-effect is less than 1% in dogs over 6-MO, but 5% in pups under 6-MO._

if U were to track the initial + outcome of several thousand dogs, all trained with either reward-based or aversives, 
U *might* or might not get good data - besides the pro-trainer, does the owner do their homework? 
how often do they train / B-Mod? how good is the owner/handler at reading the dogs emotional state?

there would be an enormous amount of variable-noise: time, age, desex status, WHEN desexed (dog to dog critical), 
and more - CORN / MAIZE in the diet lowers the reactivity threshold; can we get all the dogs on the same diet for 3-mos?

OTOH, a large number of pro-trainers have done it both ways - 
there are now thousands of cross-over trainers worldwide.
i began with aversives in the 1960s; by the 1980s, i used pos-R, altho i began clicker-training *dogs* 
in the early-1990s; i was clicker-training parrots + horses in the 80s. 
so i had 20-years of aversives-experience before i began pos-R-biased training.

i am sure that those many trainers can state with assurance that they get faster + better results with pos-R; 
they will have anecdotes of dogs of many ages, both genders, many breeds + mixes, intact or desexed, 
and what they learned over how long a time, to what degree of fluency. 
*but this is not a scientific study.*

all my best, 
--- terry


----------



## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

Fair enough Terry 

Out of interest, Star is currently going through her first (and last) season, and we hear that bitches tend to calm down when it's over.
To what extent is this claming down? Will it lessen her pulling for other dogs? She's alread much calmer, but still if she sees another dog, she will pull, she doesn't do it with people anymore really....


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Daggre said:


> ...Star is... going through her first (and last) season, and we hear
> that bitches tend to calm down when it's over. To what extent is this calming down?
> Will it lessen her pulling for other dogs? She's already much calmer, but still if she sees another dog,
> she will pull, she doesn't do it with people anymore really...


whew, dagg - :laugh: U must have great faith in a crystal ball, or maybe the 8-Ball Executive-Decision Maker. 

* i think calming is more an effect of age / learning than estrus 
* how do U separate estrus from age? the 2 are linked.

then secondarily, U are hoping for a prediction on a dog i have never seen nor met - as to how much this particular 
F will *calm* post-estrus.  the answer is, i haven;t a clue - _*but i would bet good training, socialization, 
and habituation would help even more than One Estrus - which comes along with age, inevitably. *_

the only way to test this scientifically would be a pubertal desex on the control group, natural 1st-estrus (experimental), 
BOTH groups being trained to the same level of reliability + performance (which may take shorter, more-frequent lessons 
for some dogs), AND... a 3rd group intact + UNtrained, whose behavior will change due to estrus + age.

the only way to tease estrus-FX out separately from age is desex before the 1st estrus; 
having met + handled many young-Fs i can say that whether they had experienced estrus never seemed critical; 
but *management, training, + maturity AKA age* made enormous changes.

estrus is not IMO any majik-bullet  many dogs never have one, and seem to do fine, behaviorally. 
JMO + IME, Ur mileage may vary, 
--- terry


----------



## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

> whew, dagg - U must have great faith in a crystal ball, or maybe the 8-Ball Executive-Decision Maker.
> 
> * i think calming is more an effect of age / learning than estrus
> * how do U separate estrus from age? the 2 are linked.


Our friends said their dog got A LOT calmer when she'd had her season... Star has been lately, listens more during play, doesn't run off with things for fun anymore, she will drop them every time.

(When she was feeling naughty she used to run around the garden with something she knew she couldn't have)

Obviously she needs to be helped along with the whole 'no don't sprint off after that dog' process, I have asked my dad if we can get a long line, and now if we take the lead off she won't just sprint off, she'll sit and wait for the 'go on'. Obviously recently I have not been able to practise her off lead with dogs.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Daggre said:


> Our friends said their dog got A LOT calmer when she'd had her season...
> Star has been [calmer] lately, listens more during play, doesn't run off with things for fun anymore,
> she will drop them every time.
> 
> (When she was feeling naughty she used to run around the garden with something she knew she couldn't have)


the friends statement (my F is calmer post-estrus) may be entirely true, dagg - 

but we cannot say estrus *caused* her to be calmer, b/c along with her 1st-heat, she has continued to mature 
mentally + emotionally; the friend continued (hopefully) to train from puphood on for good manners; 
and even now that their dog is post-pubertal, they will still (hopefully) continue to both teach + maintain - 
teach new behaviors, and maintain her current manners (or improve them) thru ongoing practice.

i would say trophying or keep-away behavior is more an outburst of play vs deliberate, forethought disobedience; 
dogs play TROPHY all the time with other dogs, its a universal favorite - i have seen some manipulative dogs 
use it to get something-else, TROPHYING a low-value item as if it was the worlds greatest thing, 
and when the dog(s) they teased got up to play, they played for a very short time, or simply dropped it, 
and ran over to get the high-value item left behind by the solicited dog.

if Ur dog is being praised + rewarded (petting, praise, engaged with ANOTHER preferred object, 
treat, real-life reward: walk, game, cuddle on the sofa...), she has very good reasons to surrender the item, 
in order to get something even better.  *its all about consequences of behavior -  if i do this, 
then what happens?*

happy training, 
--- terry


----------



## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

Oh, i know the season certaintly doens't cause the calmness, I know it's about growing up too, sorry, I don't think I phased my question very well. 

The friends do continue to train their dog,

It was definately an outburst of play, she knew we used to chase her because sometimes she really couldn't have the item. However back then (Star is our first) we were very inexperienced and I worked out that either ignoring her..or dropping a treat on the floor e;sewhere made her let go of the item. I also sometimes gave it back and made her 'leave it' then rewarded again. 

Having a dog is very beneficial keeping-calm wise. if i get stressed I always think 'go into dog mode'. She knows if she drops it I get happy =) And also, if it's a toy, I will throw it for her/play.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Daggre said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> ...we used to chase her b/c sometimes she really couldn't have the item. However back then
> (Star is our first) we were very inexperienced... I worked out that either ignoring her... or dropping a treat on the floor
> ...


very good responses! *> click! <* offer an alternative; offer an ACTIVITY; praise always. :thumbsup:

eliminating the reward from self-rewarding or snowballing behaviors can be hard to do. 
self-rewarding include slip out the door/over the fence + run off; 
snowballing behaviors have a magnifying feedback loop - 
reactive dog barks? audience-dog that s/he looked at, also barks in response... 
reactive-dog barks longer + louder, etc.  thats the reason _*Shut Up! almost never works - *_ 
the dog perceives this as back-up, or is just more-aroused by the yelling, which can trigger predatory excitement, 
defensive hunkering, over-arousal + lowered threshold of response, etc

all my best, 
--- terry


----------



## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

> eliminating the reward from self-rewarding or snowballing behaviors can be hard to do.
> self-rewarding include slip out the door/over the fence + run off;


She has got out of the house before, and we live on a main road! O_O Thankfully she knows when to cross but normally she just wanders into next door's garden....
Our gate is broken, and didn't shut which is how she was getting out, but thankfully we have fixed that now, after she learnt to move the rock we used rope...and it works.

Getting a new gate after building work anyway.

We seem to have been very lucky in the fact Star has never barked. We just never let ehr I guess, right from when she was little we used to 'shh'.


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

*Dog Whispering can backfire* - an article written by Mat Ward BSc MVS
APBC Full Member www.petbehavioursorted.com
Mat has a Bachelor of Science degree (Psychology and Zoology double major) and Master of Veterinary Studies degree with first class honours (Animal Behaviour) and has trained animals for feature films and commercials.  (So he's a tad more qualified than our dear CM IMHO.)


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> [snip]... Mat Ward [is an] APBC Full Member... has a Bachelor of Science degree (Psych and Zoology...)
> and Master of Veterinary Studies degree, with first class honours (Animal Behaviour)...
> [he] has trained animals for feature films and commercials.  (...he's a tad more qualified than our dear CM IMHO.)


but how can we be Sure, caro? 
:lol: i mean, sure he went to college, but what did his dear grandsire teach him as he toddled after him, 
on the family [farm, yard, estate, sidewalk, porch, or other]? 

hee-hee-hee... :laugh: just checking to see if U paid attention, 
--- terry


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> but how can we be Sure, caro?
> :lol: i mean, sure he went to college, but what did his dear grandsire teach him as he toddled after him,
> on the family [farm, yard, estate, sidewalk, porch, or other]?


Oooops! I didn't have a grandad with a farm either Terry so I suppose I must bow down to greater knowledge then? We did have a dog when I was small though so does that count?:


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Oooops! I didn't have a grandad with a farm either Terry so I suppose I must bow down to greater knowledge then?


didja toddle after Grandsire wherever it was he went? [out to get the newspaper; gardening in the yard...]

did he convey Life-Secrets to Ur shell-like infant ears?  if Yes, then it counts. :thumbsup: IMO, of course! 
- t


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

I did used to follow him round the garden yes, getting in his way so much that he used to tell me to 'Buzz off' which resulted in me pretending to be a bee!  He never had a dog though? Does this mean I am doomed to be a failed dog psychologist forever?


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> ...He never had a dog though? Does this mean I am doomed to be a failed dog psychologist forever?


oh, dear! that is a difficulty - did Grand-dad make canny observations on Other Peoples Dogs?

did any of yer other esteemed elders have dogs?
did they tell U all about how cigar-tobacco CURES worms, etc? 
*WARNING - do NOT do this at home! * _always follow vet-advice, and verify sources._

if they stuffed yer child-brain with folksy remedies + old-hubby-tales, that should qualify, even if the person 
was *not* (sadly) yer glorious Grandsire. we do with what we have, in a pinch... :thumbsup:

- t


----------



## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> He is also bitten so darned much! What does that say about him? That he deals so much with so called 'red zone dogs' so it's inevitible? Or because he misreads dogs and then pushes them beyond their limits?


Yeah, I rather enjoy watching to spot all the bites that Cesar takes and avoids flinching or showing any sign of pain on camera. In one clip he has taken the dog out in a prong collar and it tears the arm of his top to shreds, whilst Cesar hangs on like grim death.


----------



## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

tripod said:


> They only 'understand' tssst after some work to associate the sound with impending shock, jerk or poke


That isn't true, it is easy to make a hissy pSSSHH rather loud and sharp, so it works as a distraction from immediate intended action, just like a passing vehicle gets a dog checking it out, or a shake of something. At least one dog that's not been jerked, hit or poked will look up and that may avoid it "practicing" an unwanted behaviour; no reason to believe it's a special dog in this regard, so I suspect most others respond similarly without need for association. Of course soon the sound, works like "no, NO!" when a dog is "caught in the act" and realises the sound is indicating displeasure with it's intended action.


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Rob, some of the dogs don't just 'look up' though? The rest of their body language tells a different story.


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

New article - *Are the Dog Whisperers methods safe?* 
_Cesar Millans dominance-based approach to dog training has unleashed a pack of critics who say his methods are dangerous_

Rebecca Dube
From Monday's Globe and Mail 
Published on Monday, Jul. 12, 2010 9:23AM EDT 
Last updated on Monday, Jul. 12, 2010 10:07AM EDT

The Dog Whisperer, Cesar Millan, has built a media empire on his ability to tame and train the most incorrigible of canines. Millions watch his show on National Geographic each week to see the charismatic star teach hapless owners to cure barking, jumping, aggression and fear in dogs. 
But could his forceful methods be ineffective, even dangerous? Some think so. There is a growing backlash against Mr. Millan from dog-behaviour experts and dog owners who fear that he could bring punitive training back in vogue, despite long-established evidence that positive, reward-based training works. 
It was a surprise to a lot of dog trainers to suddenly see this very old-style training, and to find that it caught on so quickly, said Stanley Coren, psychology professor at the University of British Columbia and author of several books about dogs, including _How Dogs Think__: Understanding the Canine Mind_ and _The Intelligence of Dogs_. 
Theres no denying that Mr. Millan and his techniques make great television. Every episode of _The Dog Whisperer_ features Mr. Millan swooping into the home of someone with a misbehaving dog, camera crews in tow. He certainly seems to have a magic touch  a few firm tsch! sounds and leash tugs from Mr. Millan and the former devil-dogs trot placidly to his side, gazing angelically at their stunned owners. The real entertainment value of the show is watching Mr. Millan teach those owners how to become, in his words, pack leader, dominant over their own dogs. 
I rehabilitate dogs, Mr. Millan says in the voice-over before every show. I train humans.

Its the wrong kind of training, critics say, and any rehabilitation may be short-lived once the cameras are gone. 
Practices such as physically confronting aggressive dogs and use of choke collars for fearful dogs are outrageous, said Jean Donaldson, director of the SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers in San Francisco, in a widely disseminated critique of the show. A profession that has been making steady gains in its professionalism, technical sophistication and humane standards has been greatly set back.  To co-opt a word like whispering for arcane, violent and technically unsound practice is unconscionable. 
Dr. Coren said the methods used by Mr. Millan  who has no formal training in dog psychology or animal behaviour  are a throwback to those used to train German military dogs in the 1940s. The basic flaw in his technique is relying on the notion that dominance is established by force, and nowadays we know thats not the case. 
The leader of the pack is the one that controls the resources, Dr. Coren said. Thus a well-timed treat to reward good doggy behaviour (for example, not freaking out when the doorbell rings) can be more effective than 10 of Mr. Millans physical corrections aimed at curbing bad habits. 
The dangerous part of Mr. Millans methods, critics say, is that they may get a dog to stop growling or lunging, but they wont cure the underlying fear or aggression, thus creating a dog thats more likely to strike without warning. 
(For his part, Mr. Millan has pointed out that his training goes further than the corrections seen on TV that his critics denounce.)

Respected veterinarian and dog behaviourist Ian Dunbar, who heads Berkeley, Calif.-based Sirius Dog Training, has called this technique removing the ticker from the time bomb. He and Ms. Donaldson feel so strongly about Mr. Millans approach that they have produced a DVD titled _Fighting Dominance in a Dog Whispering World_. 
The National Geographic channel runs a dont try this at home warning before each episode of _The Dog Whisperer_. The telling thing is this disclaimer, Dr. Coren says. What makes good television doesnt necessarily make good science. 
Mr. Millan shrugs off the criticisms, saying his training methods are natural and humane. 
It's the difference between going to school and the dogs being your school, Mr. Millan told a National Geographic interviewer. One is the intellectual knowledge, the other one is instinctual. I am instinctual. 
His pop-culture juggernaut rolls on: In addition to his TV show and DVDs, he has a magazine, bestselling books, a line of dog products and even human clothes for sale. 
At a recent pet show in New York, people lined up for three hours to meet him. Jackie Comitino of Long Island, wearing a T-shirt that said Tsch! Be a pack leader, waited with her two dachshunds, Dylan and Cody. She said Mr. Millans teachings had changed her life as well as her dogs. 
Every dog owner should read his books, she said. I follow his method to a T.


----------



## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> Rob, some of the dogs don't just 'look up' though? The rest of their body language tells a different story.


I definitely agree that can be the case, but that does not make my point any less true. The "pppSSSSHHH!" can work like a shaker bottle only much more conveniently, and it does work for some dogs without negative associations. If you are looking at "problem" dogs, with owners that are selected to have made mistakes, then I would expect a disproportionate number to cower/flinch etc. You have a group that is self selecting, even before the TV ppl assess cases for miracle cure potential by our great hero *St Cesar of the Whispering!*

A bit of perspective hones the case against the methods used, otherwise doubt and confusion will be caused which undermines the positive reinforcement argument.

Frankly I suspect the programmes are entertaining, precisely because he isn't doing things properly, and that this is going to irritate and annoy professional responsible behavourists and trainers. Don't you just love the bits in these programmes, with the out of control manic dogs, mayhem and the owners totally struggling and reacting wrongly the best?

There's a sadistic control freak streak in the public, only last week a chap seeing a well trained pup, started on at me about Barbara Woodhouse telling dogs what for, and the "strangler" incident in an excited way. I felt saddened but relieved he was not a dog owner. It's shown by gushing journalists when footballers get a new manager, who is described as a "disciplinarian". That's probably why the alpha over powering your dog stuff had such mass appeal to.

Against that, I have seen Cesar saying many times, that he is not "kicking" but touching the dog to get it's attention, and also the "hand bite" move is symbolic. If that reduces the amount of slapping and hitting dogs noses, shouting at dogs, then that surely at least is positive.


----------



## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> That isn't true, it is easy to make a hissy pSSSHH rather loud and sharp, so it works as a distraction from immediate intended action, just like a passing vehicle gets a dog checking it out, or a shake of something. At least one dog that's not been jerked, hit or poked will look up and that may avoid it "practicing" an unwanted behaviour; no reason to believe it's a special dog in this regard, so I suspect most others respond similarly without need for association. Of course soon the sound, works like "no, NO!" when a dog is "caught in the act" and realises the sound is indicating displeasure with it's intended action.


Sorry Rob but dems the facts 

If people use loud noises, sudden noises, unexpected noises or ones that become associated with certain body language, facial expressions or situations - these are used like this because they cause the dog upset and this is practically the same thing as associating them with other aversives, as regards the effects on the dog and his brain (and therefore learning).



> Against that, I have seen Cesar saying many times, that he is not "kicking" but touching the dog to get it's attention, and also the "hand bite" move is symbolic. If that reduces the amount of slapping and hitting dogs noses, shouting at dogs, then that surely at least is positive.


The effect an aversive has on a dog depends on the individual. It doesn't matter if it looks less whatever to the observer -its in the eye of the beholder.
Why is kicking or touching or whatever or hand-bites better than slapping - both categories of these would be equally aversive and damaging to my dog for example. Its not just the action but the entire situation that these dogs are often responding to and these aversive actions become more so due to being associated with feelings of helplessness (shut down), intimidation etc. 
Its the same attitude that bugs me in relation to spray collars V shock collars - one is not necessarily better than the other and ALL aversives have the potential for fallout regardless of type. Individuals will respond acutely to some aversives and others will barely scratch the surface. The problem is we don't know how bad until its too late.



> A bit of perspective hones the case against the methods used, otherwise doubt and confusion will be caused which undermines the positive reinforcement argument.


Unfortunatley, those who have a problem with CM, these methods and attitudes toward dogs are the ones with perspective. By standing back and looking beyond the persona, the TV tricks and the whitest teeth I have ever seen and looking at the dog who doesn't lie.


----------



## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

I'm going to be a touch thick here. I have never watched the Dog Whisperer but was under the impression that he trained by positive reinforcement.

Is that not the case?


----------



## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

tripod said:


> Sorry Rob but dems the facts
> 
> If people use loud noises, sudden noises, unexpected noises or ones that become associated with certain body language, facial expressions or situations - these are used like this because they cause the dog upset and this is practically the same thing as associating them with other aversives, as regards the effects on the dog and his brain (and therefore learning).


Sorry Tripod, in general I have as you know a lot of respect for your point of view, but you are going way over the line here. You are assuming that something else is combined and associated, when that does not need to be the case.

I'll just point out that you can look at dog with corner of eye, say "pSSH" and see it look up, and just carry on walking on loose lead, a mild correction.

I'll also point out that even a non verbal indication of displeasure, an expression, or as you say body language, can cause a dog that cares about pleasing to show appeasement / submissive body language.

Are you saying that in House Training - you see a pup start to crouch back on your best carpet, that involuntarily saying "No, no, NO!" in alarmed manner and rushing it outside, and then rewarding it for pooping in approved place is upsetting the dog?

I just don't believe it is sane to expect people to ignore that situation, and not react. Nor do I think it results in damaged dogs.

Fact is, if the dogs were as fragile as you're making out, then nobody would have had happy healthy well trained dogs when I was young, which is obviously absurd.


----------



## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Werehorse said:


> I'm going to be a touch thick here. I have never watched the Dog Whisperer but was under the impression that he trained by positive reinforcement.
> 
> Is that not the case?


Well, I think especially in the more recent series, that the emphasis is on making the owners calmer, more confident and leading. Also taking more time to approach fearful dogs, and to be gentler with the dogs than the average uneducated owner.

However in many of the shows, I have seen things that I found disturbingly insensistive being done to the dogs, often without regard to the dogs safety.

There has also been much useage of choke leads, choke chains in order to control the dogs, as well as having them get into a state where they lie down in submission.

Finally all the jerks on lead, seem unecessary to me, a little more patience, encouragement or a distraction technique seem to work perfectly adequate and only be a little more onerous to me.

The trouble is, "The Dog Whisperer" is full of mystic BS, so when folk have done research, qualifications and done proper studies, they are naturally upset when personality-cult type approach is promoted.


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Sorry Werehorse - the Dog Whisperer is about as far from positive reinforcement as it is possible to get.

He "trains" using aversives, inc some extremely harsh ones. His methods include:
The use of choke, prong and shock collars
Leash jerks, hanging (suspending the animal off the ground - usually on a choke chain - until it can struggle no more), dragging, etc. 
Kicking and hitting (or as others would tell you - prodding the dogs with his fingers or feet)
Flooding (exposing phobic dogs to their terror so that they can not escape - like an arachnaphobe being locked in a cupboard full of spriders and left there until they stopped screaming)
Scruffing, and lifting animals off the ground by their scruff or any other loose skin.
Forcing the animal into position, inc alpha rolling - forcing the animal down and onto its back and pinning it there by its neck.

He knows jack sh*t about dog behaviour, blames everything on "dominance" - even fear, chasing light, etc.
He seems to have very little pateience, uses brute force and physical punishment - never lure or positive reinforcement.....

He is a dog abusing scumbag IMO.


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Colette said:


> He knows jack sh*t about dog behaviour, blames everything on "dominance" - even fear, chasing light, etc.
> He seems to have very little pateience, uses brute force and physical punishment - never lure or positive reinforcement.....


Uhuh, you got it!


Colette said:


> He is a dog abusing scumbag IMO.


Yup! Just about sums him up.


----------



## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

Righty-o. Shall avoid his books/trainers who like him like the plague then.


----------



## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Sorry Tripod, in general I have as you know a lot of respect for your point of view, but you are going way over the line here. You are assuming that something else is combined and associated, when that does not need to be the case.
> 
> I'll just point out that you can look at dog with corner of eye, say "pSSH" and see it look up, and just carry on walking on loose lead, a mild correction.
> 
> ...


OK Rob there has been a misunderstanding here - I was saying that CM uses an association with a strong aversive as part of his training and use of his verbal 'correctors'.

And second, I didn't say anything about to use or not to use certain noises or whatever. 
We have a pretty good idea of how secondary signals work as regards how the brain processes them and the subsequent behavioural response whether it be clicker, marker word, interruptor, 'correction' etc.

I don't recommend the use of strong aversives, especially remotely as we never know how the individual may respond - we do however know that aversives are associated with fallout that can be potentially damaging.

I, as you have prob guessed, am pretty militant  for want of a better word about dog-friendly training and the minimisation of aversives.
I also feel that we need to be careful with our use of them as its just too easy to do so. Aversives are associated with fallout that can be damaging. We won't know what damage to which individual or how it will affect them until after use, sometimes quite a long time later.

I personally don't think that its more acceptable to use one type of aversive over another. I wish that we could get by with none but thats not always possible. 
If a pet owner want to use time outs (no more than 20 seconds) or simply brief withdrawal of contact (turn away and immediate return) my instruction is always that you need to earn it. I say that you need to have rewarded the desired behaviour 10 times for every 1 use of timeout. Withdrawals and NRMs (only with savvy dogs) are the only aversives that I intentionally employ with dogs and clients.
But then I also remember the story that Patricia McConnell tells of working with a specific shelter dog and filming them working on jumping up or some minor issue. When the trainer turned away to do a brief withdrawal they have footage of the dog absolutley reeling as if it had been struck - that was obviously very aversive for that dog  I would never want to bring about that response in a dog I was working with - talk about an effective way of breaking down the relationship.
Obviously not every individual is going to be so sensitive to this and I have a pretty good idea of which dogs this weak averisve will effect over others. But not everyone does.

Yes, I rarely resort to aversives. I can't remember the last time I used anything more than a well worked NRM (no reward marker, in effect opposite to a click!) with my dog. And I am no pushover 

I also have a problem with the word 'correction' - it is undefinfed as regard its use in dog training/teaching so people mean different things when they say it.
What does the pet owner want to achieve by their use of a 'corrector'? But more importantly I ask what behaviour would they rather their dog do?


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

tripod said:


> I also have a problem with the word 'correction' - it is undefinfed as regard its use in dog training/teaching so people mean different things when they say it.
> What does the pet owner want to achieve by their use of a 'corrector'? But more importantly I ask what behaviour would they rather their dog do?


Terrific post tripod. :thumbup: I'll just give my two penneth on the last bits.



> What does the pet owner want to achieve by their use of a 'corrector'?


They want to 'stop' the behaviour that they don't want.



> But more importantly I ask what behaviour would they rather their dog do?


Now there's a question. At a rough guess, they just want it to stop the behaviour. Teaching it to present an alternative behaviour is too much like hard work - they just want it to 'stop'. Hence the eagerness to lap up CMs' methods and why they think they 'work'.:001_cool:


----------



## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

> Now there's a question. At a rough guess, they just want it to stop the behaviour. Teaching it to present an alternative behaviour is too much like hard work - they just want it to 'stop'. Hence the eagerness to lap up CMs' methods and why they think they 'work'.


I'll shhh Star and praise her when she stops, you 'correct' the dog with a quick distraction and praise for the dog stopping/focusing on you. I sometimes make stupid noises when we walk and praise Star for looking so she learns to look to me everynow and then.

I am not a CM supporter although i used to be, and because I used to be I completely understand why people follow him, he looks genuine, and unless you know of another way his mehtods all make sense. There's a lot of people on here who forget that some people just need to be shown another way, and don't have the experience/wider knowledge to know of other methods.

I just joined in here- sorry if this is irrelevant


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Daggre said:


> I'll shhh Star and praise her when she stops, you 'correct' the dog with a quick distraction and praise for the dog stopping/focusing on you. I sometimes make stupid noises when we walk and praise Star for looking so she learns to look to me everynow and then.
> 
> I am not a CM supporter although i used to be, and because I used to be I completely understand why people follow him, he looks genuine, and unless you know of another way his mehtods all make sense. There's a lot of people on here who forget that some people just need to be shown another way, and don't have the experience/wider knowledge to know of other methods.
> 
> I just joined in here- sorry if this is irrelevant


Using a noise as a distraction, nothing wrong with that.  Praising for stopping the behaviour is actually 'rewarding' a new behaviour, the looking at you, hence it is repeated the next time you make the noise! What I have a problem with is the owner/trainer who 'corrects' with a noise or physical action and then does nothing else to reward the dog for doing something else! How is the dog to learn?

Oh and you are VERY welcome to join in the discussion. Nothing you have said is 'irrelevant' at all.


----------



## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

> owner/trainer who 'corrects' with a noise or physical action and then does nothing else to reward the dog for doing something else! How is the dog to learn?


The thing is, and this is what people don't realise. If you have say just got a dog, heard about this 'dog whisperer' and researched his methods you are hooked, until you have looked atthe body language sites and the ANTI CM sites, you cannot see why his methods are wrong. OnTV they look just what he says 'submissive' the dog seems to respond and the show is incredibly convincing. I have to say, whenever my dog as a puppy used to chase the vacumm I'd go 'shh' and she stopped after a few times, i used no reward 9this was when i was his 'fan') I wouldn't do no praise now, but it did work. however that was a small case and for aggression..I hardly find that apopropriate, just lookingat the other thread you can see how affective simply rewarding the dog is!

Can i ask about that, i was wondering, how does the dog not think 'oooh, look she's rewarding my nervous aggression'?? 
It clearly doesn't, but why?


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

I'd actually like to see this T055 P0T CM character you all seem so fond of assassinating deal with something more likely to stand up to his unique approach of breaking dogs. Like a Sar' for example.  We'll donate one 19 month old female (not neutered) if the rest of you would like to contribute to his medical bills

PS. There's nothing wrong with her mind. She's just very selective.


----------



## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

> I'd actually like to see this CM character you all seem so fond of assassinating deal with something more likely to stand up to his unique approach of breaking dogs. Like a Sar' for example. We'll donate one 19 month old female (not neutered) if the rest of you would like to contribute to his medical bills


Just make him do something LIVE. Then study the effects on the dog when he's left for a long period. sadly, that would be cruel.


----------



## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> Terrific post tripod. :thumbup: I'll just give my two penneth on the last bits.
> 
> They want to 'stop' the behaviour that they don't want.
> 
> Now there's a question. At a rough guess, they just want it to stop the behaviour. Teaching it to present an alternative behaviour is too much like hard work - they just want it to 'stop'. Hence the eagerness to lap up CMs' methods and why they think they 'work'.:001_cool:


Thanks Caroline.

Herein lies the problem - you can't teach the absence of behaviour - it is not possible to do.
That is why the pet owner needs to concentrate on the behaviour they want the dog to do rather than the behaviour the pet owner would rather he didn't.

'Corrections', however, don't stop behaviour. They give an instant fix - they so rarely contribute to any sort of longevity. Think why the pet owner uses them over and over???
'Corrections', in the way that I see the vast majority of people using them, surpress behaviour. They act to sufficiently intimidate the dog so that he stops offering _any_ behaviour at all and thus rewards the user of the 'correction' as it appears to "work".

The whole of society thinks this way - stop unwanted behaviour. But this is so inefficient and difficult to do effectively.
Punishers, which by definition reduce the liklihood that an animal will repeat a specific behaviour, are very difficult to execute effectively. For the most part our use of aversives such as 'corrections' surpress behaviour. Punishment is rewarding for the punisher 

So if you want to stop unwanted behaviour you need to use a punisher - either remove something pleasant or introduce something unpleasant. But for it to work on the specific unwanted behaviour the delivery of the punisher must be bang on time (within 1-2 seconds of the unwanted behaviour), it must fit the crime and be severe enough to stop the behaviour.

The problem with punishers is that they can't work alone. Let's say we get it right and we manage to stop behaviour something has to fill the gap left behind. The animal may well fill that behaviour vacuum with something that we don't like and the process starts again.

Dogs for example could potentially carry out hundreds if not thousands of unwanted behaviours in any one situation. But there is generally only a couple of desired behaviours. Which is most efficient?

The quick fix scenario is an illusion - the problems are greater in the long run.


----------



## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Daggre said:


> I'll shhh Star and praise her when she stops, you 'correct' the dog with a quick distraction and praise for the dog stopping/focusing on you. I sometimes make stupid noises when we walk and praise Star for looking so she learns to look to me everynow and then.


This is an interruptor and when used this way they generally don't cause a reduction in the undesired behaviour. They are really a management device to be used until an alternative, more acceptable behaviour can be put in place.

Indeed used this way dogs can chain these events and we have a behaviour chain of undesired behaviour-interruptor-praise, depending on timing.

It is far more effective to teach an interrupting behaviour or instructional reprimand. Again, ask what would you prefer the dog to do?


----------



## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

tripod said:


> OK Rob there has been a misunderstanding here - I was saying that CM uses an association with a strong aversive as part of his training and use of his verbal 'correctors'.
> 
> And second, I didn't say anything about to use or not to use certain noises or whatever.
> We have a pretty good idea of how secondary signals work as regards how the brain processes them and the subsequent behavioural response whether it be clicker, marker word, interruptor, 'correction' etc.
> ...


I am with you here. You seemed to have implied something rather offensive to me. That is, that someone using a sharp "psssSSH" sound, that has a dog reacting to it, must have hit, poked or done something else that I would regard as cruel to the dog. That is simply untrue.

Took chance to watch some series 1 shows again and they did feature many more of the offensive techniques than the later series. The "Customers" seem to be shown ways to manage problems so they're happy, even where solving the core problem is unadressed, and they admit it's unsolved at end of show. His wrestling with an aggressive Pit Bull would I suspect especially horrify the concerned, but is the kind of clip that gets good ratings.


----------



## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

tripod said:


> Herein lies the problem - you can't teach the absence of behaviour - it is not possible to do.
> That is why the pet owner needs to concentrate on the behaviour they want the dog to do rather than the behaviour the pet owner would rather he didn't.
> 
> 'Corrections', however, don't stop behaviour. They give an instant fix - they so rarely contribute to any sort of longevity. Think why the pet owner uses them over and over???
> 'Corrections', in the way that I see the vast majority of people using them, surpress behaviour. They act to sufficiently intimidate the dog so that he stops offering _any_ behaviour at all and thus rewards the user of the 'correction' as it appears to "work".


Quite agree. But competent dog people don't think of "Correction" in those terms.

A dog can understand what is wanted, but that does not make them totally compliant all the time, especially if the unwanted behaviour is something that has some pay off for them. They test boundaries, your resolve, and whether you can be effective at maintaining order.

When you're training a dog, you reward the wanted behaviour, but tactics to avoid the practicing of the unwanted behaviour help. That surely is where "interruptors" are useful.

Dogs can learn that they're not allowed upstairs in one house, but are in another, and there's nothing immediately positive about not following their favourite person. That's an area where respect for your wishes and behaving in a disciplined way (rather than gratifying impulses) are required. If you want to avoid the trap of repeating commands, an anti-click a "Correction" sound meaning you are infringing is very useful, and not just the "Quick Fix" of the cowed passive dog that is confused and bewildered.

People need positive training to, good sports coaches focus on successful performance, not on negatives. So perhaps inclusion of how to do the approx 10% corrections advocated during training, so there is an accepted general usage is required. You need to advocate to people, a "positive correction" technique, and say how, when & why you do it, or everyone is just left winging it, and many (most?) will make many more mistakes without good examples to follow and learn from.


----------



## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> I am with you here. You seemed to have implied something rather offensive to me. That is, that someone using a sharp "psssSSH" sound, that has a dog reacting to it, must have hit, poked or done something else that I would regard as cruel to the dog. That is simply untrue.
> 
> Took chance to watch some series 1 shows again and they did feature many more of the offensive techniques than the later series. The "Customers" seem to be shown ways to manage problems so they're happy, even where solving the core problem is unadressed, and they admit it's unsolved at end of show. His wrestling with an aggressive Pit Bull would I suspect especially horrify the concerned, but is the kind of clip that gets good ratings.


Apologies if I offended you Rob, that was no my intention - my comments were directed toward pracitices in the particular TV show that is the focus of this thread.



> When you're training a dog, you reward the wanted behaviour, but tactics to avoid the practicing of the unwanted behaviour help. That surely is where "interruptors" are useful.


Yep - they, when used in some situations, are a management device used to prevent undesired behaviour and/or while training is in place to put an alternative, more desirable behaviour in place.



> But competent dog people don't think of "Correction" in those terms.
> 
> A dog can understand what is wanted, but that does not make them totally compliant all the time, especially if the unwanted behaviour is something that has some pay off for them. They test boundaries, your resolve, and whether you can be effective at maintaining order.


But I do see so-called competetant people use interruptors, corrections, whatever as surpressors, intentionally or not. I see professionals doing it, competitors, hobbyists, pet owners and even parents doing it.

I absolutley agree that dogs can't be expected to conform all the time - they are living things and have up days and down days - sometimes circumstances can conspire to cause problems. I certainly don't want a robot for a pet but if I see an issue I will work very hard to put things right (go back to the drawing board) and after I have looked at the ways that I may have possibly contributed to my dog's failure - the book stops with me.



> Dogs can learn that they're not allowed upstairs in one house, but are in another, and there's nothing immediately positive about not following their favourite person. That's an area where respect for your wishes and behaving in a disciplined way (rather than gratifying impulses) are required. If you want to avoid the trap of repeating commands, an anti-click a "Correction" sound meaning you are infringing is very useful, and not just the "Quick Fix" of the cowed passive dog that is confused and bewildered.


But there are lots of reasons that a dog may go upstairs although not allowed in other situations with nothing to do with testing boundaries. It can for example, simply be down to the way that dogs learn - they don't generalise behaviours well. Therefore I would manage to prevent the dog coming up stairs in that situation. I don't use interruptors as you describe to teach behaviours so I would be using an alternative strategy.

I do use No-reward-markers (NRMs) but only because I have worked hard to teach my dog that hearing the NRM means the opportunity to try another behaviour rather than stop all behaviour just in case. This safe to use for clicker (training) savvy dogs only.



> People need positive training to, good sports coaches focus on successful performance, not on negatives. So perhaps inclusion of how to do the approx 10% corrections advocated during training, so there is an accepted general usage is required. You need to advocate to people, a "positive correction" technique, and say how, when & why you do it, or everyone is just left winging it, and many (most?) will make many more mistakes without good examples to follow and learn from.


I agree - people need R+ teaching too. It is something that a lot of 'positive' training has a problem doing to be honest.

I also agree that people need to be given tools that are effective and not damaging to their relationship with their pet so that they don't feel the need to resort to aversives.

I don't know if this is directed towards me and my response - if so, I simply don't always have time to detail every little bit  so I just try to answer questions where possible. Hence i tend to link to other resources - lack of time is my constant enemy 

With clients I teach managment strategies to prevent most unwanted behaviour. I teach owners how to provide acceptable outlets for their dog's natural behaviour. I teach owners and pets how to carry out incompatible, alternative behaviours that are highly rewarding and much more suited to life in the human world.

But life happens. A child reaching for an electrical socket might have their hand slapped or snatched back by a concerned parent - this is necessary & aversive but not good teaching. So the issue is managed by fitting a cover until the child is capable of learning much safer behaviour.

A pet owner who comes home to find her dog standing on the table eating left over birthday cake might let out a yell, grab the dog and put him out fo the room. Again necessary, aversive but not good teaching. So we will talk about putting management strategies in place (dog not left unsupervised in kitchen, no food left on table, chairs pushed in or put on table etc.etc.etc.etc.) we will look at acceptable outlets (enrichment toys, earning food, perhaps work on separation issues etc.etc.etc.) and then alternative behaviours for stealing. For many behaviours long term management may be important.

The life-happens solutions are temproary and often satisfactory for many situations once explained to people. I might also teach clients how to do withdrawals and time outs so that they are minimally aversive/damaging but also effective. Again its a management device while teaching the _dog what *to do*_.

I think pet owners, just like parents, need to also take some reponsibility. The old one that I always say to people that if you are not supervising the puppy and he chews inappropriatley or pees in the wrong place is to roll up the newspaper and to bop yourself over the head  stands in many situations. We know that dogs come with certain behaviours that clash with human living - prepare for them, manage & prevent, provide acceptable outlets and teach incompatible behaviours. I blogged about this here. 
I can't abide the idea of putting a dog in a situation that I know they will fail and then harass/correct/interrupt/punish/whatever them for it - it doesn't make sense to me. We are the primates with the big brains who have taken this animal on and its up to us to make it work for all concerned. If a pet owner uses an interruptor I expect them to have worked to make sure that the dog understands exactly what this means. No offence meant but just my way of working which has come about and evolved over decades of work and study in the behaviour area and coming from the other side of the fence altogether


----------



## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

tripod said:


> But I do see so-called competetant people use interruptors, corrections, whatever as surpressors, intentionally or not. I see professionals doing it, competitors, hobbyists, pet owners and even parents doing it.


All the more reason to clearly explain how & when correction fits in, and how to avoid unintentional suppression.

A positive message on this, will help overal, as in practice doing your best, even those willing to do a lot of reading, discussion with others, find some messy areas in practice.

No real offense taken about dog's not reacting to "ppSSSHH!", I just wanted to challenge that point in the general, as I find that type of hiss works better than the "Ah Ah" type noise recommended by say Victoria Stillwell. I like non-verbal noises for some situations, as they are similar in a way to whistles and don't convey emotion, so I don't have to think about my feelings before reacting.

Funnily I find my Border Collie seems to responds to a "shusshhh" sound, when it's giving too much eye and standing off too much after stalking it's toys, and that noise is recommended in a Sheep Dog training book if a Collie tends to overly strong eye. As it did it first time, there's no way that was learning by association.


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

On a side note - I do agree that animals can give different reactions to different noises, and thus your non-verbal correction / interuptor needs to be specific to the animal.

Solo (the bichon) never responded very well to the high pitched yelping when he was play biting as a pup, but a low growly noise was very effective.
For interupting in its purest sense, any noise that he doesn't hear routionely can get his attention - inc blowing raspberries and other daft noises.

Jones the cat on the other hand is the exact opposite. He went through a stage of climbing my legs at every opportunity, and no amount of frim "No!"s deterred him. Purely by accident on one occassion he must have hit a nerve and actually hurt me, and I drew a really sharp high pitched intake of breath - and he immediately leaped off me and backed off for a moment. A couple of inward hisses later and he stopped leg climbing completely.

With either dog or cats there has never been any association between an interupting noise and a physical punisher - just the noise itself.


----------



## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> All the more reason to clearly explain how & when correction fits in, and how to avoid unintentional suppression.


As stated I don't have all the time in the world lol  I do my best, unless PF wants to start paying me 

Sounds are likely to habituate or sensitise if there is no follow up or should I say inadequate follow-up. So pet owner makes whatever noise, dog orients toward noise, pet owner congratualtes themselves for averting a crisis, and dog continues on. Repeat scenario x number of times.
Dog soon becomes habituated to sound and pet owner feels they must escalate to get dog's attention.

Victoria Stilwell uses noise aversion (certainly in the UK based shows) so these sounds are used the same way that someone might use a rattle can for example, to startle in order to get the dog's attention. In fairness, this when used with rock steady dogs can then be paired with something fab and thus turned into a so-called positive interrupter. But if not done consistently and without appropriate follow up all thats happening is startling - fear/startle response hardly ever habituates.

Interruptors may be followed up with something nice or nasty. This greatly affects the effect on the dog's emotional and therefore behavioural systems.

Individuals attend to various stimuli differently and there is abundance of evidence to suggest that some species, breeds/varieties will attend to different stimuli inherently. You can't separate learning and innate-ness however.
Your dog, or any dog may have responded to a particular stimulus first time because its novel or because it startled him or because they are innately predisposed to do so - but what happens as follow up to that noise will effect how he responds the second times its presented and thats learning.

We are waaaaay off topic here so I am out on this issue - back to slating the dog whisperer   :lol:


----------



## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Colette said:


> For interupting in its purest sense, any noise that he doesn't hear routionely can get his attention - inc blowing raspberries and other daft noises.


I won't ask about embaressing noises, that work like a "Come Here!" command 
Growling with my dog, seemed to prime him for confrontational play at first. I could do it now as alternative to hiss, but it is tougher on the vocal chords.

Thanks to Tripod for the very illuminating additional info. Victoria claims to use positive reinforcement techniques (but I have seen her use sound aversion, not just interruption), but the more I find out about the details of Dog training the more nuanced it becomes.

With the vareity of response, by individual dogs, then the same thing, done to 2 different dogs, could act in different ways.


----------

