# Nicola Sturgeon Announces New Scottish Independence Bill



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Nicola Sturgeon announces new Scottish independence bill:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37634338

She hasn't thought this through in my point of view. Let me explain why:
1) What currency will they use if they do leave the UK? They can't use the pound or the Euro as they won't be a member of the EU as the EU have made it clear Scotland has to leave with the UK and then get independence to rejoin. They can't use the pound as they will no longer be in the UK and they can't use the Euro as they initially won't be in the EU. 
2) They will owe money to the UK as we fund them through subsidies - so they will immediately be in debt.
3) Parliament in London have to approve a second independence Referendum and Scotland only had one in 2014 and overwhelming said no. Parliament have made it clear on numerous occasions that they won't allow another one.
3) There would be a hard border between Scotland and the UK so this will open them up to heavy tarriffs, taxes and duty to the UK.
4) Don't worry about trident being stationed there as Northern Ireland said if Scotland doesn't want this they will have it station in there country as it would bring plenty of jobs there.
5) Is Nicola Sturgeon going to step down if the Scottish people vote no to independence again like Alex Salmond had to?

Has she really thought this through?

No


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Can't wait to go vote


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Good luck to her. Really don't give a monkeys .


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Good Luck to them.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Every time I see that face I feel like punching it. What an awful woman!!


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

stockwellcat said:


> Nicola Sturgeon announces new Scottish independence bill:
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37634338
> 
> ...


Yes.

If Scotland wishes to stay in EU.

Currency ': Euro or Salmon poond.

That is if they are keen on Marmite.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

There you are. Scots are ready:


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> There you are. Scots are ready:
> View attachment 286633


Ah but if they stay in the EU they'd have to adopt the Euro so those notes would be worthless. New EU rules  any country wishing to join the EU must adopt Euros.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

cheekyscrip said:


> Yes.
> 
> If Scotland wishes to stay in EU.
> 
> ...


To be honest, I think that for many people now it doesn't even matter if they would get a 100% assurance of staying in EU. If they must leave EU in or out of U.K., they will choose full independence. Why? Because they want to take control of their own laws and not be ruled by unelected rich politicians...


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

stockwellcat said:


> Ah but if they stay in the EU they'd have to adopt the Euro so those notes would be worthless. New EU rules  any country wishing to join the EU must adopt Euros.


Many Scots will happily adopt using fish heads as currency if it means getting independence.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

shadowmare said:


> Many Scots will happily adopt using fish heads as currency if it means getting independence.


There will be alot of starving people in Scotland then with no currency and mounting debts from the UK. The UK won't make it easy for Scotland to have independence like the EU isn't going to make it easy for the UK. You can have a hard Independence but then Scotland will be broke and on its knees. The UK tax payer paid for your last Independence Referendum btw.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

shadowmare said:


> To be honest, I think that for many people now it doesn't even matter if they would get a 100% assurance of staying in EU. If they must leave EU in or out of U.K., they will choose full independence. Why? Because they want to take control of their own laws and not be ruled by unelected rich politicians...


Like TM?
Our unelected PM.
Lol.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

stockwellcat said:


> There will be alot of starving people in Scotland then with no currency and mounting debts from the UK. The UK won't make it easy for Scotland to have independence like the EU isn't going to make it easy for the UK. You can have a hard Independence but then Scotland will be broke and on its knees. The UK tax payer paid for your last Independence Referendum btw.


You scaremonger project fear you!!!

Yes. They might want to walk to their own drum.
Or bagpipe.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

cheekyscrip said:


> Like TM?
> Our unelected PM.
> Lol.


Haha yup Glad you got the clue there Cheeky!


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> Like TM?
> Our unelected PM.
> Lol.


Ah but all PMs are unelected it's the party that is elected at a General Election


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

stockwellcat said:


> There will be alot of starving people in Scotland then with no currency and mounting debts from the UK. The UK won't make it easy for Scotland to have independence like the EU isn't going to make it easy for the UK. You can have a hard Independence but then Scotland will be broke and on its knees. The UK tax payer paid for your last Independence Referendum btw.


Ach! All that is bs from experts. As you brexiteers like to say... we'll just have to wait and see! You don't know how it will be until we become officially independent.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

stockwellcat said:


> Ah but all PMs are unelected it's the party that is elected at a General Election


Except Scotland doesn't want your stinky Torries. You can keep them, May and Borris together with the falling pound.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Nicola Sturgeon reminds me of the rallying call of Braveheart


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

shadowmare said:


> Except Scotland doesn't want your stinky Torries. You can keep them, May and Borris together with the falling pound.


Nice you think about that towards them. But do you really think that you will be granted a second independence Referendum? You only had one 2 years ago and overwhelmingly said no. Westminster still govern Scotland and Westminster will reject Nicola Sturgeons request unless Scotland can fund there own Referendum as the UK paid for it last time and after they pay back what they owe the UK in subsidies etc.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

stockwellcat said:


> Ah but all PMs are unelected it's the party that is elected at a General Election


So why was such fuss about her coronation?

But...think only..
How can they be stopped?

Words of mere experts?

Against the perspective of visas for immigrants from England?
And to obtain Scottish passports you would need to speak fluent Glaswegian, eat haggis and quote Bruce. From memory.

Love to see that.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> So why was such fuss about her coronation?
> 
> But...think only..
> How can they be stopped?
> ...


There is a common language between the Scots and Irish it's called Gaelic so yep I'd get in Scotland


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

stockwellcat said:


> Nice you think about that towards them. *But do you really think that you will be granted a second independence Referendum? *You only had one 2 years ago and overwhelmingly said no. Westminster still govern Scotland and Westminster will reject Nicola Sturgeons request unless Scotland can fund there own Referendum as the UK paid for it last time after they pay back what they owe the UK in subsidies etc.


Considering how 'well' such an expression of power (stoping democracy and all...) by Westminster go down with Scottish people, I cannot wait to see how things will develop! Nothing like preaching about people's right to choose, be ruled by elected power rather than someone unelected dictating the rules, and about how 'valued' and 'equal' Scotland is in this union and then telling "Shut your mouth and do as you're told, little irrelevant Scotland"


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

stockwellcat said:


> There is a common language between the Scots and Irish it's called Gaelic so yep I'd get in Scotland


Actually no. It's not so "common". It's even pronounced differently in the two countries...


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

stockwellcat said:


> There is a common language between the Scots and Irish it's called Gaelic so yep I'd get in Scotland


Do.

Remember though : All illegals from South of the border would be rounded up by collies, put into camps and deported.

Because Scots want to
TAKE CONTROL.

Please, insert appropriate smilies...


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

shadowmare said:


> Considering how 'well' such an expression of power (stoping democracy and all...) by Westminster go down with Scottish people, I cannot wait to see how things will develop! Nothing like preaching about people's right to choose, be ruled by elected power rather than someone unelected dictating the rules, and about how 'valued' and 'equal' Scotland is in this union and then telling "Shut your mouth and do as you're told, little irrelevant Scotland"


Good luck with the Scottish Independence Bill round 2.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

shadowmare said:


> Actually no. It's not so "common". It's even pronounced differently in the two countries...


Sorry I do apologise its Scottish Gaelic and Celtic isn't it or am I wrong again 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> *Please, insert appropriate smilies...*


Ok


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

stockwellcat said:


> Sorry I do apologise its Scottish Gaelic and Celtic isn't it or am I wrong again
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language


http://www.bitesize.irish/blog/irish-scottish-gaelic-differences/


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

stockwellcat said:


> Ok


And no. TM was not elected by Scots.

But such preposterous idea like allowing people ANOTHER referendum ?

Like they are only advisory and really rubbish way to decide anything.

That may addle their little minds and give them airs!

Cannot they see that England knows what is good for them?


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

NS will be putting border guards along this famous wall  if she doesn't get a Second Referendum, Westminster will charge her for the services of UK border guards:


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

cheekyscrip said:


> And no. TM was not elected by Scots.
> 
> But such preposterous idea like allowing people ANOTHER referendum ?
> 
> ...


People seem to forget that it was said in the beginning that if the circumstances were to change, there may be a need for another referendum. Sturgeon said herself before Brexit happened that in case of UK leaving EU, a second referendum would most likely be on the table.
I do love how UK is allowed to decide if it wants to be "ruled by foreign power" and stay in a union with some other countries, but god forbid the same human rights to Scotland! :Rage  
I do appreciate all the people down south being worried about tax payers money and all... I mean I truly understand what it means to have a referendum happening and you not having a say in it!


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

stockwellcat said:


> NS will be putting border guards along this famous wall  if she doesn't get a Second Referendum, Westminster will charge her for the services of UK border guards:
> View attachment 286639


It will need to be higher than that to keep the remain voters from moving up to Scotland!


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

shadowmare said:


> People seem to forget that it was said in the beginning that if the circumstances were to change, there may be a need for another referendum. Sturgeon said herself before Brexit happened that in case of UK leaving EU, a second referendum would most likely be on the table.
> I do love how UK is allowed to decide if it wants to be "ruled by foreign power" and stay in a union with some other countries, but god forbid the same human rights to Scotland! :Rage
> I do appreciate all the people down south being worried about tax payers money and all... I mean I truly understand what it means to have a referendum happening and you not having a say in it!


Scotland will have human rights its called the British Bill of rights 
We are ruled by a foreign power its called the EU. Scotland isn't a foreign power it is in the UK, it's on the same land mass as England an so is Wales.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

shadowmare said:


> People seem to forget that it was said in the beginning that if the circumstances were to change, there may be a need for another referendum. Sturgeon said herself before Brexit happened that in case of UK leaving EU, a second referendum would most likely be on the table.
> I do love how UK is allowed to decide if it wants to be "ruled by foreign power" and stay in a union with some other countries, but god forbid the same human rights to Scotland! :Rage
> I do appreciate all the people down south being worried about tax payers money and all... I mean I truly understand what it means to have a referendum happening and you not having a say in it!


Ungrateful wretches.

Tell them it may take decades to recover from that divorce and even then it is not certain.

And getting rid of pound sterling must be such a worry...


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

stockwellcat said:


> Scotland will have human rights its called the British Bill of rights
> We are ruled by a foreign power its called the EU. Scotland isn't a foreign power it is in the UK, it's on the same land mass as England an so is Wales.


But maybe Scotland doesn't want your British Bill of rights. Maybe we want Scottish rights for Scottish people (Scottish people including those born, bred, raised and anyone who enjoys living here)


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Good luck with the indyref2 bill passing through Westminster if it gets that far. If Scotland get there freedom, good luck to them.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

I don't know anyone who lives in scotland.. but I have a scottish surname.. does that mean I am entitled to move to scotland ?  though I think I'd rather just go on holiday there  prefer Wales


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

How about a referendum asking the Welsh, Northern Irish , and English if they want the Scots to stay within the UK?  :Hilarious


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

kimthecat said:


> How about a referendum asking the Welsh, Northern Irish , and English if they want the Scots to stay within the UK?  :Hilarious


I was going to say that  You beat me to it


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> How about a referendum asking the Welsh, Northern Irish , and English if they want the Scots to stay within the UK?  :Hilarious


We'd be equally happy if you all said you didn't want us to stay as the outcome would be the same!  Everyone has a right to hold a referendum so it's your right too.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

shadowmare said:


> Considering how 'well' such an expression of power (stoping democracy and all...) by Westminster go down with Scottish people, I cannot wait to see how things will develop! Nothing like preaching about people's right to choose, be ruled by elected power rather than someone unelected dictating the rules, and about how 'valued' and 'equal' Scotland is in this union and then telling "Shut your mouth and do as you're told, little irrelevant Scotland"


To them Scotland is just, "another place up North". Should Brexit turn out to be a disaster Scotland will be the first to suffer and they didn't even vote for it.

Let England and Wales have the hard Brexit it wants. Scotland and Northern Ireland should be able to negotiate with the EU independently. May's words will do nothing to re-unite the divided united kingdom. It'll just divide it further.

My views are already well known from other threads. Sturgeon has my full support.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

They what freedom from us, as we do from the EU


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> To them Scotland is just, "another place up North". Should Brexit turn out to be a disaster Scotland will be the first to suffer and they didn't even vote for it.
> 
> Let England and Wales have the hard Brexit it wants. Scotland and Northern Ireland should be able to negotiate with the EU independently. May's words will do nothing to re-unite the divided united kingdom. It'll just divide it further.
> 
> My views are already well known from other threads. Sturgeon has my full support.


You forgot Gibraltar, they voted remain as well. Everyone seems to forget Gibraltar.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> You forgot Gibraltar, they voted remain as well. Everyone seems to forget Gibraltar.


Yes, you're absolutely right. My apologies to the great people of Gibraltar.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Scotland isnt in the EU, except as part of the UK, if they want to join they would have the same 5 year wait as most others, THEN (hopefully) Englands border controls could stop travel with out a visa.....lol

TBH she wants power, she lost the last Scottish referendum (slap in her face), she wants her 50 MPs to rule the 650 seat house of commons....that cant happen.

Scotland always lay claim to NORTH SEA OIL but Scotland didnt discover it nor bring it ashore but has done well out of it with no investment in the industry, Aberdeen is oil town


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

stockwellcat said:


> You forgot Gibraltar, they voted remain as well. Everyone seems to forget Gibraltar.


Cant work them out....they dont want to leave the EU but dont want to be Spanish....

is that a "best of both worlds" scenario?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

stockwellcat said:


> Nice you think about that towards them. But do you really think that you will be granted a second independence Referendum? You only had one 2 years ago and overwhelmingly said no.


What exactly is your definition of 'overwhelmingly'?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Happy Paws said:


> They what freedom from us, as we do from the EU


Ironic isn't it?


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Colliebarmy said:


> Cant work them out....they dont want to leave the EU but dont want to be Spanish....
> 
> is that a "best of both worlds" scenario?


I don't get it either as a friend of mine says he has friends on Gibraltar and that everyone they know said they would always have voted Leave because of the disputes with Spain and they have always wanted Gibraltar to remain British. But they strangely voted to remain. Very strange situation in Gibraltar.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

havoc said:


> What exactly is your definition of 'overwhelmingly'?


55.3% that's 2,001,926 voted to stay in the UK and 44.7% that's 1,617,989 voted to leave the UK.

The turn out being 84.6%.

Also in voting to leave the UK at the time (2014) they where also voting to leave the EU if they left the UK.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014o


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

So 55.3% of 86.2% of the Scottish electorate is 'overwhelming'? It's a convincing majority but I wasn't exactly overwhelmed.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

havoc said:


> So 55.3% of 86.2% of the Scottish electorate is 'overwhelming'? It's a convincing majority but I wasn't exactly overwhelmed.


Ok. Cool.
But did you know that if they voted to leave the UK at the time they where voting to leave the EU at the same time. Now they want to stay in the EU. How confusing because 24 and a half months ago they would have been out if the EU if there independence Referendum succeeded back then with no help from the UK or UK cash to spend in subsidies because they would have voted to leave the UK thus also leaving the EU. Didn't think of that technicality did they back then? I am sorry but they voted to stay in the UK so therefore showed there loyalty to the UK and to abide to UK laws and to be governed by Westminster. We leave the EU, you leave the EU.


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## foxiesummer (Feb 4, 2009)

I go over the border into Scotland every day. Tis only half a mile away. If they adopt the euro I will need two purses, one for £ and one for euros. I may even need a passport.
NobodyI have spoken wants to leave the UK


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> I am sorry but they voted to stay in the UK so therefore showed there loyalty to the UK and to abide to UK laws and to be governed by Westminster. We leave the EU, you leave the EU.


The UK remain vote was largely due to promises made by Cameron, Clegg, Brown and Milliband to allow Scotland greater independence on staying in the UK. The fact the UK as a whole was safely within the EU at the time also helped.

Now May has gone back on those promises. Many people of Scotland don't want Westminster rule, they have their own government and laws in Edinburgh.

Now May is insisting Westminster over-rides the wishes of the Scottish government and people and has the cheek to suggest they comply with her wishes!

This isn't what Cameron and co promised, this is back to the days of Thatcher who treated Scotland as, "that place up North" and introduced the Poll Tax there a year before it was introduced to the rest of the UK.

Hardly surprising the Tory, Labour and Lib Dem vote has collapsed in Scotland therefore.

Hardly surprising too they may call for a second independence referendum.

The very best of luck to them. They have my full support.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

foxiesummer said:


> I go over the border into Scotland every day. Tis only half a mile away. If they adopt the euro I will need two purses, one for £ and one for euros. I may even need a passport.
> NobodyI have spoken wants to leave the UK


I always have to take out new cash when I go down south because many places will give a queer look and refuse to accept Scottish pounds.
Everyone I've spoken to and all of Scottish people I have on FB are for independence. What's your point?


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> The UK remain vote was largely due to promises made by Cameron, Clegg, Brown and Milliband to allow Scotland greater independence on staying in the UK. The fact the UK as a whole was safely within the EU at the time also helped.
> 
> Now May has gone back on those promises. Many people of Scotland don't want Westminster rule, they have their own government and laws.
> 
> ...


Yes. They voted 24 and a half months ago to remain in the UK, thus abide to UK laws and to be governed by Westminster. Tough one isn't it. Well for the Scottish it is. Why because they voted to stay in the UK thus giving up independence.

They where Cameron's false promises and I do believe they aren't written down as law anywhere.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

foxiesummer said:


> I go over the border into Scotland every day. Tis only half a mile away. If they adopt the euro I will need two purses, one for £ and one for euros. I may even need a passport.
> NobodyI have spoken wants to leave the UK


I'm from Border country and it's the same - my folks are still there (nearest shops are in England etc) and very few people they know want independence

NS wants a kick up the backside - she has no money ...... we spend a huge amount more than we'd generate

Oil was her revenue stream - look what's happened to that .... where's she going to get money from?


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

stockwellcat said:


> Ok. Cool.
> But did you know that if they voted to leave the UK at the time they where voting to leave the EU at the same time. Now they want to stay in the EU. How confusing because 24 and a half months ago they would have been out if the EU if there independence Referendum succeeded back then with no help from the UK or UK cash to spend in subsidies because they would have voted to leave the UK thus also leaving the EU. Didn't think of that technicality did they back then? I am sorry but they voted to stay in the UK so therefore showed there loyalty to the UK and to abide to UK laws and to be governed by Westminster. We leave the EU, you leave the EU.


Many people voted to stay in U.K. because they were scared of the idea of becoming independent and leaving EU. The better together campaign relied heavily on "If you stay in U.K. You stay in EU but if you leave UK then you will have to reapply for EU". Yes, everyone was aware of the upcoming eu referendum, but those wanting to stay in eu didn't expect the stupid situation the UK is in now. No one believed that would be the outcome. So now, when Scotland is getting dragged out of EU, why would those people want to stay in U.K.? The main deal that stopped them from voting for independence is now off the table.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

shadowmare said:


> Many people voted to stay in U.K. because they were scared of the idea of becoming independent and leaving EU. The better together campaign relied heavily on "If you stay in U.K. You stay in EU but if you leave UK then you will have to reapply for EU". Yes, everyone was aware of the upcoming eu referendum, but those wanting to stay in eu didn't expect the stupid situation the UK is in now. No one believed that would be the outcome. So now, when Scotland is getting dragged out of EU, why would those people want to stay in U.K.? The main deal that stopped them from voting for *independence is now off the table.*


Yep because Scotland fell for Cameron's lies hook line and sinker. The rest of the UK didn't. So those empty promises he made are off the table.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

stockwellcat said:


> Yes. They voted 24 and a half months ago to remain in the UK, thus abide to UK laws and to be governed by Westminster. Tough one isn't it. Well for the Scottish it is. Why because they voted to stay in the UK thus giving up independence.
> 
> They where Cameron's false promises and I do believe they aren't written down as law anywhere.


No, they voted to stay in the U.K. when it was a country in EU. Now it's leaving, the Scottish people have the right to decide whether they want to stay in U.K. as a country outside of EU. 
I really don't get why it's so hard for some to understand this...


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

shadowmare said:


> No, they voted to stay in the U.K. when it was a country in EU. Now it's leaving, the Scottish people have the right to decide whether they want to stay in U.K. as a country outside of EU.
> I really don't get why it's so hard for some to understand this...


But Scotland aren't a country they are a devolved state of the UK like Wales and Northern Ireland. Scotland definitely isn't a country.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> Yes. They voted 24 and a half months ago to remain in the UK, thus abide to UK laws and to be governed by Westminster. Tough one isn't it. Well for the Scottish it is. Why because they voted to stay in the UK thus giving up independence.
> 
> They where Cameron's rules and I do believe they aren't written down as law anywhere.


That's very true but I remember how scared the leaders of all main London parties were that independence vote would win. They even dragged out Gordon Brown to back the remain case (repeated in the EU referendum).

Lots of scaremongering too from what I remember. Cameron and co were so successful in their persuasion to allow Scotland greater independence they used a similar technique in the EU referendum which Cameron was so confident in winning.

Of course nothing will be written down as fact.

Let the Scottish people decide, not those unelected by the Scottish people 300+ miles away in London.

Brexit supporters could argue the same thing about being controlled by Brussels, not London.....


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

stockwellcat said:


> Yep because Scotland fell for Cameron's lies hook line and sinker. The rest of the UK didn't. So those empty promises he made are off the table.


So?.... what's your point? England lies to Scotland and now Scotland needs to live with that??? 
I'm not even going into a debate with you as after you spent weeks supporting Brexit and then proudly announced that you're applying for Irish citizenship to have a plan B, I lost any interest in anything you've got to say on anything relating to the topic.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

shadowmare said:


> No, they voted to stay in the U.K. when it was a country in EU. Now it's leaving, the Scottish people have the right to decide whether they want to stay in U.K. as a country outside of EU.
> I really don't get why it's so hard for some to understand this...


Actually ..... being in the EU or not being in the EU had absolutely nothing to do with why I didn't vote for Scottish Independence so please don't assume ..... I voted to stay part of the UK (as many others did) because I believe we're one nation that belongs together


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Oh goody the never-rendum is back again.

How I see it we are all one country, the Scottish were given the chance and voted to stay. 

Can't keep having them until you get the response you want


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

stockwellcat said:


> But Scotland aren't a country they are a devolved state of the UK like Wales and Northern Ireland. Scotland definitely isn't a country.


Ffs... I didn't even say Scotland was a country. I mean the UK as a country within or outside of EU


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

stuaz said:


> Oh goody the never-rendum is back again.
> 
> How I see it we are all one country, the Scottish were given the chance and voted to stay.
> 
> Can't keep having them until you get the response you want


Actually yes they can. There is no law against it.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

shadowmare said:


> I always have to take out new cash when I go down south because many places will give a queer look and refuse to accept Scottish pounds.
> Everyone I've spoken to and all of Scottish people I have on FB are for independence. What's your point?


How very true about Scottish notes. At one time here in the far north of England Scottish notes were nearly as common as UK ones and they co-existed happily. Now 99% of places won't accept them.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

foxiesummer said:


> I go over the border into Scotland every day. Tis only half a mile away. If they adopt the euro I will need two purses, one for £ and one for euros. I may even need a passport.
> NobodyI have spoken wants to leave the UK


Pounds???.
You will need a sack not a purse!!!

Gibraltar cannot have sustainable economy without access to EU.
Unless Britain steps in.
Which they rarely did.
We used to be navy base.
Now we depend on tourism, gaming industry, financial services..that needs EU access and EU law.

Blocked frontier leaves about one third of work force behind.

Possibly population will have to shrink by more than half.

Where those by then non EU people go?
They hate to leave their homes and be forced to migrate.
Abandon homes we paid mortgages for years, abandon our community.

Is it that strange that we voted to remain?

Our food comes from Spain
My bills went up by about 20% past Brexit.

Animals adopted from our society are being returned as people are losing their jobs because companies are moving to Malta.

For you it is temporary lack of Marmite, for us it is entire livehoods and community destroyed .

And no one voting for Brexit gives a damn.

That they destroyed us.

Yes. Rock will survive.
We might lose everything we worked for and how I am going to pay for my kids education?
So yes. We have good reason to object Brexit.
Also May could trade us to neofrankist and ruined Spain.
Who hate us.

Enjoy your marmite.


----------



## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

shadowmare said:


> Actually yes they can. There is no law against it.


Which IS where Cameron et all went very wrong ...... they should've stipulated that another one couldn't have been held for xx years (and a long time!)

However, the SNP said they would accept the result - so they've totally broken their word ....


----------



## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Lilylass said:


> Actually ..... being in the EU or not being in the EU had absolutely nothing to do with why I didn't vote for Scottish Independence so please don't assume ..... I voted to stay part of the UK (as many others did) because I believe we're one nation that belongs together


Where did I say people voted the way they did because of EU?? I said the vote took place when the uk was part of eu. Now that circumstances are changed people have the right to vote again and consider the different context.
Please read the post properly before attacking me for making assumptions 
P.s. Yes, I was one of the many people I know who voted no last time and would vote yes now.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

stuaz said:


> Oh goody the never-rendum is back again.
> 
> How I see it we are all one country, the Scottish were given the chance and voted to stay.
> 
> Can't keep having them until you get the response you want


Really odd that people go on about rights. law and democracy but it only applies if it agrees with their views isn't it!!!


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> How very true about Scottish notes. At one time here in the far north of England Scottish notes were nearly as common as UK ones and they co-existed happily. *Now 99% of places won't accept them.*


Like where? Examples please.. Back up your statements.


----------



## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

stockwellcat said:


> Like where? Examples please.. Back up your statements.


Plenty of places in London and Manchester I can name.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

kimthecat said:


> How about a referendum asking the Welsh, Northern Irish , and English if they want the Scots to stay within the UK?  :Hilarious


How about referendum to ask Italy. Spain, Germany and all other EU members if Britain is to stay in EU?


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> How about referendum to ask Italy. Spain, Germany and all other EU members if Britain is to stay in EU?


Well this evening according to the Guardian news paper Donald Tusk has said it's a hard Brexit or No Brexit and he is the EU Council President.

Here's the proof: https://www.theguardian.com/politic...or-no-brexit-at-all-says-eu-council-president


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Lilylass said:


> .... where's she going to get money from?


If Westminster got their way it certainly wouldn't be from central government, especially if hard Brexit turn out to be a disaster. Th people of Scotland, NI and Gibraltar will be the first to suffer and they never voted for this.

No doubt England the North of Watford and Wales will also receive limited funding. Tough for them, they voted for Brexit. Let them get on with it.

I have more faith in the EU parliament in Brussels than in Westminster personally speaking.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

stockwellcat said:


> Can I ask
> 
> Well this evening according to the Guardian news paper Donald Tusk has said it's a hard Brexit or No Brexit and he is the EU Council President.
> 
> Here's the proof: https://www.theguardian.com/politic...or-no-brexit-at-all-says-eu-council-president


Is that a referendum?

Or just repeating what was said from the beginning:
No cherry picking!

You are in or out?


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> If Westminster got their way it certainly wouldn't be from central government, especially if hard Brexit turn out to be a disaster. Th people of Scotland, NI and Gibraltar will be the first to suffer and they never voted for this.
> 
> I have more faith in the EU parliament in Brussels than in Westminster.


Tut tut you forgot Wales


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Scotland was a country and may be one.
Democracy in our world means rights to self-determination.
Scottish people can have as many referendums as their parliament/ government elected by them choses.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> Is that a referendum?
> 
> Or just repeating what was said from the beginning:
> No cherry picking!
> ...


Picking up on what you said about the Passport thing. What makes you think I bothered in the end to apply?


----------



## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

shadowmare said:


> Actually yes they can. There is no law against it.


I know legally they can


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> Scotland was a country and may be one.
> Democracy in our world means rights to self-determination.


The only thing that separates England from Scotland is Hadrian's Wall, no sea, no ocean etc a wall the Romans built. So they are not a country they are joined with England like Wales is.


----------



## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Lilylass said:


> Which IS where Cameron et all went very wrong ...... they should've stipulated that another one couldn't have been held for xx years (and a long time!)
> 
> However, the SNP said they would accept the result - so they've totally broken their word ....


Didn't they say (And I might be wrong here) that it was a "once in a lifetime vote". Not sure if its the SNP or London saying that though. Not sure how many years that translate to, but pretty sure it would be more than a few.

TBH I can't imagine London saying yes to another one, while the EU exit is on going. Can't really have a fight on two fronts.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

stuaz said:


> Didn't they say (And I might be wrong here) that it was a "once in a lifetime vote". Not sure if its the SNP or London saying that though. Not sure how many years that translate to, but pretty sure it would be more than a few.
> 
> TBH I can't imagine London saying yes to another one, while the EU exit is on going. Can't really have a fight on two fronts.


Not the fault of Scots situation changed?
They were told: Stay or we will block your membership!


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> Not the fault of Scots situation changed?
> They were told: *Stay or we will block your membership!*


That is a dramatic overstatement. If you can please quote/link to a website where Cameron stated this and I will apologise.

The Scots would have made themselves leave the EU because they were voting to leave the UK thus automatically leaving the EU at the same time. You just didn't realise this.


----------



## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

stockwellcat said:


> Nicola Sturgeon reminds me of the rallying call of Braveheart
> View attachment 286637


Wasn't he hung, drawn and quartered?


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

@Catharine Yes but he wanted Scottish Freedom. The English made an example of him for revolting against them. Poor Mel Gibson. Good film though.


----------



## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

stockwellcat said:


> @Catharine Yes but he wanted Scottish Freedom. The English made an example of him for revolting against them. Poor Mel Gibson. Good film though.


Good film, a bit too much gory detail in a few places though.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> Like where? Examples please.. Back up your statements.


Re Scottish notes they were at one time very common around here. Around 20 years ago many shops put up notices saying they would no longer accept them. This was more due to the possibility of forgery than showing any disrespect to Scotland.

Certainly, when I went down to London in the '80s any Scottish currency I had which I tried to spend was always refused. I kept these notes and spent them back home where I knew they would be accepted at that time.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

stockwellcat said:


> That is a dramatic overstatement. If you can please quote/link to a website where Cameron stated this and I will apologise.
> 
> The Scots would have made themselves leave the EU because they were voting to leave the UK thus automatically leaving the EU at the same time. You just didn't realise this.


Yes. But then they might be allowed to join?
Rajoy may promise to block them if May gives him Gibraltar.

He has Catalonia at stake. And Basks.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stuaz said:


> TBH I can't imagine London saying yes to another one, while the EU exit is on going. Can't really have a fight on two fronts.


Ot shouldn't be down to London. It's down to the Scottish government and people whether they want another referendum or not.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> Yes. But then they might be allowed to join?
> Rajoy may promise to block them if May gives him Gibraltar.
> 
> He has Catalonia at stake. And Basks.


It takes 5 years to join the EU at a minimum. They have a backlog if countries wishing to join as well. Plus they have to meet 35 rules before they can join. So Scotland would and will be at the back of the queue if they leave the UK.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> Ot shouldn't be down to London. It's down to the Scottish government and people whether they want another referendum or not.


But it is down to Westminster as Scotland decided to stay in the UK. UK rules and governance that's what they voted for, to stay or leave back in 2014. Not neverendums.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

The House of Commons will vote if Sturgeon gets this bill through in Scotland and the general consensus is you had your vote in 2014 and agreed to stay in the UK. Regardless of the false promises Cameron made at the time. This isn't TMs fault btw. It is Sturgeon who is making all the fuss. No other devolved states of the UK are making this fuss, they have accepted the results. Sturgeon clearly does not want to work with TM to get the best possible deal with the EU. Remember TM inherited this from DC.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

stockwellcat said:


> The House of Commons will vote if Sturgeon gets this bill through in Scotland and the general consensus is you had your vote in 2014 and agreed to stay in the UK. Regardless of the false promises Cameron made at the time. This isn't TMs fault btw. It is Sturgeon who is making all the fuss. No other devolved states of the UK are making this fuss, they have accepted the results. Sturgeon clearly does not want to work with TM to get the best possible deal with the EU. Remember TM inherited this from DM.


Clearly not. She wants her own deal with EU, not TM deal...

Shocked?

They stayed because of EU. 
Why should they stay now?

They are out of EU in any case.
Whether they might rejoin or not that would be their decision.

They have rights to self-determination.

Spain says we have to be Spanish because we are in Iberia. Yet they have colonies in North Africa.

Geography does not determine your nationality.

Scots are a nation.
Can have independence if wish so.
Human rights and democracy.

Who has rights to decide for them?

They elected Nicola Sturgeon not TM.

I may wish they stayed in UK but no one should force them to stay.
Or bully them.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> But it is down to Westminster as Scotland decided to stay in the UK. UK rules and governance that's what they voted for, to stay or leave back in 2014. Not neverendums.


Things have changed though haven't they? Had the UK as a whole voted to remain in the UK the prospect of another Scottish independence referendum wouldn't be happening would it?

Why have devolution in Scotland (and Wales) if their government's aren't allowed to govern by the government based in London? May is acting as if they don't exist, as if she's the person in charge and will do what they say regardless.

This attitude fuels the need for Scotland, NI and others to show who's in charge there. In Scotland's case it won't be London based parties, be it Tory or Labour.

Even though I'm in England I have far more in common with Scotland 60 miles North of the Border than Central Government 280 miles down in London.


----------



## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

KittenKong said:


> Ot shouldn't be down to London. It's down to the Scottish government and people whether they want another referendum or not.


No, Scotland is currently part of the UK which it's central government is based in London, therefore it should be down to Westminster. They are central government.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stuaz said:


> No, Scotland is currently part of the UK which it's central government is based in London, therefore it should be down to Westminster. They are central government.


Disagree most strongly. Scotland has its own parliament in Edinburgh, should be down to them, not those unelected by the Scottish people in London.

You can use the same argument about the EU, insisting Westminster makes the rules for England, not Brussels.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

stuaz said:


> No, Scotland is currently part of the UK which it's central government is based in London, therefore it should be down to Westminster. They are central government.


What about " power for the people"?

What if Scots do not want to be governed from capitol in another country?
By rich Tories they did not elect?

Same English people who did not want to have laws from Brussels have objections to Scots governing themselves ?

Are Scots house elves or kind of Hobbits?

Are English worried about Jungle around Sunderland, desperados jumping on lorries and braving North Sea on a laylo...just to be deported back to Sunderland or left in detention with other nonEU illegals?

Imagine how well it will go in Scotland if Westminster refuses.


----------



## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

rona said:


> What an awful woman!!


Totally agree rona, can't stand her. Hope they succeed this time.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> What about " power for the people"?
> 
> What if Scots do not want to be governed from capitol in another country?
> By rich Tories they did not elect?
> ...


The Power Of The People voted to leave the EU, that being the majority on the 23rd June 2016.

Westminster is the central Government of the UK who are acting on the power of the people. Scotland, you like it or not voted in 2014 to stay in the UK thus passing power to Westminster to govern Scotland under UK law and governance. Therefore they relinquished the power of the Scottish Government so they are Governed by Westminster who happen to be the central Government of the UK who Scotland are in. Scotland's future is in the hands of Westminster as you voted to stay in the UK.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

N


stockwellcat said:


> The Power Of The People voted to leave the EU, that being the majority on the 23rd June 2016.
> 
> Westminster is the central Government of the UK who are acting on the power of the people. Scotland, you like it or not voted in 2014 to stay in the UK thus passing power to Westminster to govern Scotland under UK law and governance. Therefore they relinquished the power of the Scottish Government so they are Governed by Westminster who happen to be the central Government of the UK who Scotland are in. Scotland's future are in the hands of Westminster as you voted to stay in the UK.


Now they want the power back.

England changed their mind on EU.

What right to drag Scots along?
If England voted Remain or Cameron did not gamble...


----------



## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

KittenKong said:


> Re Scottish notes they were at one time very common around here. Around 20 years ago many shops put up notices saying they would no longer accept them. This was more due to the possibility of forgery than showing any disrespect to Scotland.
> 
> Certainly, when I went down to London in the '80s any Scottish currency I had which I tried to spend was always refused. I kept these notes and spent them back home where I knew they would be accepted at that time.


You were asked to back up your claim that Scottish bank notes are currently rejected by 99% of businesses in the North of England and this is what you come up with?


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> N
> Now they want the power back.


Well they had there vote and agreed to stay in the UK.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

stockwellcat said:


> Well they had there vote and agreed to stay in the UK.


Under different circumstances. Mm
So invalid now.

And it is all about North Sea oil.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> Under different circumstances. Mm
> So invalid now.


Yes but Scotland still agreed to stay in the UK.

We could argue that under different circumstances (David Cameron) the UK agreed to leave the EU couldn't we? But from the soundings from the EU the UK is leaving by hard Brexit or No Brexit at all. Another words in or out. Scitland (Sorry Scotland) had the same choice 24 and a half months ago  and decided to stay in the UK.

EU hard Brexit proof from Donald Tusk: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37650077

Again my question is this:
If Scotland leaves the UK what currency will they trade in as they won't be able to trade in pounds sterling or euros? It will realistically take 5+ years to re-enter the EU after completing 35 obsticals along the way. So after leaving debt with the UK and interest do you think the UK will give Scotland a glowing reference to EU. Scotland who will have no currency and it's citizens surviving on rations (Scaremongering maybe but look at the overall picture not through Sturgeons eyes)?


----------



## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

KittenKong said:


> Disagree most strongly. Scotland has its own parliament in Edinburgh, should be down to them, not those unelected by the Scottish people in London.
> 
> You can use the same argument about the EU, insisting Westminster makes the rules for England, not Brussels.


Scotland has certain laws devolved to it, like wales and Northern Ireland but some elements such as a referendum rely with the central government. If it didn't, then Scotland would already be independent


----------



## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

cheekyscrip said:


> N
> Now they want the power back.
> 
> England changed their mind on EU.
> ...


What right do they have to drag Scotland along? We are all one country!


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

stuaz said:


> What right do they have to drag Scotland along? We are all one country!


By force?
Happy families.


----------



## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

cheekyscrip said:


> By force?
> Happy families.


Yeah if you go far enough back into history. Though I like to think we may have improved since 1707 and realise that we are better working together for a common goal than separately. We have been one country for a while now, not sure what benenfits there are for ether side, aside from the usual bluster of 'national pride'.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stuaz said:


> Yeah if you go far enough back into history. Though I like to think we may have improved since 1707 and realise that we are better working together


Sounds a bit like, "Britain Stronger in Europe".

Perhaps I should try and turn things upside down: Edinburgh is the UK capital and refuse London a say on English matters. As Scotland overwhelmingly voted for remain in the EU yet England voted leave the government refuse to acknowledge this and are told by a government they didn't elect, "Put up or shut up, you'll do as we say".

In 2014 England had an independence referendum and were promised extra powers and that the UK united would leave the EU. England voted to remain part of the UK and matters have now changed considerably......

Wouldn't you be angry and want the right to another referendum?


----------



## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

cheekyscrip said:


> N
> Now they want the power back.
> 
> England changed their mind on EU.
> ...


The EU had nothing to do with why most Scots voted either for or against independence

They said they would accept the result - end of - well it should've been but they've gone back on their word

We have no money - we can't afford it regardless of whether some want it

(& If you / others think we'd get it from the EU we wouldn't be in it anyway if we got independence!)

You don't live here or know what most of 'joe public' thinks - you're being dragged along by the pro-sturgeon propaganda train

Scotland is part of the UK whether you like it or not - we are not 'bring dragged' anywhere thank you!!!

ETA poll after EU vote

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/07/30/brexit-fails-boost-support-scottish-independence/


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

KittenKong said:


> Wouldn't you be angry and want the right to another referendum?


Probably, much like I've wanted one since we joined the EU, but this is a democracy and a lot of things happen that I don't agree with. I wouldn't try and cause such a fuss, that it would potentially harm our countries, and be sure that all this squabbling is doing more harm than Brexit ever could


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Go for it Scotland.

Take back control. Do you want to be bossed about by a bunch of English MPs in Westminster who you never voted for?

You are a proud nation that can stand on your own feet as a beacon of defiance against the bullying of larger supranational groups. And with the undemocratic FPTP system there is nothing you can do about it while you Remain in the Union. So Leave.

They will tell you you can't cope, that you will all be doomed (probably in John Lawrie's Private Fraser voice) but that is just scaremongering.

You don't need 'experts' telling you stuff you don't want to hear. Go with your heart and show the sassenachs that you won't be pushed around any more. 

Manipulated statistics clearly show that they need you more than you need them.

Go for it!


----------



## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Arnie83 said:


> Go for it Scotland.
> 
> Take back control. Do you want to be bossed about by a bunch of English MPs in Westminster who you never voted for?
> 
> ...


Majority of Scots don't want it so why should we have it forced on us?


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Lilylass said:


> You don't live here or know what most of 'joe public' thinks - you're being dragged along by the pro-sturgeon propaganda train
> ]


I see your point but like me in England Scottish pro EU leave and pro UK supporters would appear to be in the minority.

The SNP won a landslide victory in 2015, Labour as well as the Tories are finished as a party in Scotland.

I'm certainly not speaking for Scottish people 60 miles south of the border. That would be like saying I back UKIP, sorry Teresa May and Brexit because I'm English!


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

The Sturgeon-nites don't realise the Majority of Scottish people don't want a referendum and are blinded by her going on and on about something Westminster has already said no to. Scotland isn't a country as well it is a devolved state with minimal devolved state powers. Sturgeon is making alot of noise does she realise the damage she is doing to Scotland?

You don't see Gibraltar, Wales, Northern Ireland, Island of Man, Jersey, Guernsey, Isle of White etc threatening to break away from the UK do you?


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

stockwellcat said:


> The Sturgeon-nites don't realise the Majority of Scottish people don't want a referendum


Have you asked every one of them? These sort of sweeping statements may or may not be the truth but you can't know.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

havoc said:


> Have you asked every one of them?


There has been pole after poll and the last poll, statistics said no they didn't want a second independence Referendum as there was no appetite for it in Scotland and they majority of Scots want to remain in the UK.

Here is the yougov poll for September 2016:
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/09/01/davidson-now-more-popular-sturgeon-scotland/


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

How do they work that out with a pole? If you mean poll then you must know polls are notoriously inaccurate.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

havoc said:


> How do they work that out with a pole? If you mean poll then you must know polls are notoriously inaccurate.


Sorry I didn't mean a pole but poll.
Yougov poll for September 2016:
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/09/01/davidson-now-more-popular-sturgeon-scotland/

There is no appetite for a second independence Referendum. 54% said no they don't want one 46% said yes they do want one.










If Nicola Sturgeon got her wish and had a second one (which I doubt realistically this will happen) will she quit as Scotland's First Minister if she loses like Alex Salmond had to?


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

stockwellcat said:


> Sturgeon is making alot of noise does she realise the damage she is doing to Scotland?


What damage? The UK is in a state of 'uncertainty' which is going to last a long time so there's no knowing what damage is going to be done by our trusted negotiators on Scotland's behalf. Seems reasonable to me that she makes a point of being seen to fight Scotland's corner.

The UK the Scots voted to stay with isn't the UK they now have so it isn't unreasonable that some might like to reconsider their position.


----------



## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

KittenKong said:


> Sounds a bit like, "Britain Stronger in Europe".
> 
> Perhaps I should try and turn things upside down: Edinburgh is the UK capital and refuse London a say on English matters. As Scotland overwhelmingly voted for remain in the EU yet England voted leave the government refuse to acknowledge this and are told by a government they didn't elect, "Put up or shut up, you'll do as we say".
> 
> ...


Let's complete the analogy because, as usual, you miss the point by a mile.

So let's add.... Most of the countries wealth is generated in Edinburgh and England survives on subsidies from Edinburgh without which it would be bankrupt overnight.

Then, no I wouldn't be angry or demand the right to another referendum. Because, I am a grown-up.

He who pays the piper calls the tune.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Satori said:


> Then, no I wouldn't be angry or demand the right to another referendum. Because, I am a grown-up.


No, because you see everything as a question of economics. It's a valid view and one many subscribe to but nationalism isn't only about head, there's a great deal of heart involved too. We've just proved that. There's no way the vast majority of those who voted leave in the EU referendum did so because they had any in-depth understanding of economics - whatever they claim after the event.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

When it comes down to it, is this a referendum on Scottish independence or is any campaign going to be interlinked with leaving the EU? Are people in Scotland going to vote for the wrong reasons like those in the UK who voted for Brexit for the wrong reasons? UK with Scotland are far stronger together. I believe both England as well as Scotland should have their own "parliaments" for local matters. Then again doesn't that become similar to the EU?


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> When it comes down to it, is this a referendum on Scottish independence or is any campaign going to be interlinked with leaving the EU? Are people in Scotland going to vote for the wrong reasons like those in the UK who voted for Brexit for the wrong reasons? UK with Scotland are far stronger together. I believe both England as well as Scotland should have their own "parliaments" for local matters. Then again doesn't that become similar to the EU?


Scotland does already have its own devolved government and Parliament like Gibraltar, Wales and Northern Ireland do but are Governed centrally by Westminster. These devolved states have devolved powers so they don't have total control of there devolved states and so they are still governed by Westminster and still abide by UK law. In a nut shell they are allowed to govern certain parts of there devolved states laws which Westminster will not interfere in eg Healthcare, Education, Tourism, Housing, Laws etc (See link below), but there are reserved powers which Westminster retains to keep these devolved states within the UK eg National Security, Defense, DWP benefits, constitutional matters, UK foreign policy etc (again see below link for more info).

Here are Scotland's devolved powers:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/higher/modern/uk_gov_politics/gov_sco/revision/1/

So yes a bit like the setup in the EU.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Successful politicians work minds not money. Does she really think she'll get another referendum? I doubt it but it is the obvious thing to say. No different really to our politicians claiming all sorts about what they'll get for us in the negotiations with the EU when they have no idea.


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## sesmo (Mar 6, 2016)

I live in England, but work in Scotland. Never have any problems using Scottish notes around my home. Don't really have much of an opinion on Scotlands devolution etc. However, Hadrians Wall does not constitute the border between England and Scotland. There's a fair bit of England north of the wall in fact there's approximately 60 miles between the two on the Eastern side.




  








Hadrians Wall




__
sesmo


__
Oct 14, 2016


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> Sorry I didn't mean a pole but poll.
> Yougov poll for September 2016:
> https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/09/01/davidson-now-more-popular-sturgeon-scotland/
> 
> ...


Noted but that was before May's defiant speech to say she won't allow Scotland their say in their own matters!


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

stockwellcat said:


> The only thing that separates England from Scotland is Hadrian's Wall, no sea, no ocean etc a wall the Romans built. So they are not a country they are joined with England like Wales is.


So if you have a land border you can't be a country?? Mainland Europe is just all one country because there's no sea, no ocean separating France, Germany, Belgium etc?


----------



## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

stockwellcat said:


> Sorry I didn't mean a pole but poll.
> Yougov poll for September 2016:
> https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/09/01/davidson-now-more-popular-sturgeon-scotland/
> 
> ...


Highly disappointed I've not been informed of all of these polls...


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Worth watching Dave Gorman's programme about yougov if you want to get involved in being polled


----------



## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Late to the party, but I really don't understand how they plan to sustain themselves? All you ever here is about Scotland and the independence vote, and I personally feel let them go if that's what they want but don't come knocking when you can't stay afloat


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat said:


> Scotland does already have its own devolved government


I know. About time England also had devolved government though. Was mentioned at the last Scottish referendum.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

havoc said:


> No, because you see everything as a question of economics. It's a valid view and one many subscribe to but nationalism isn't only about head, there's a great deal of heart involved too. We've just proved that. There's no way the vast majority of those who voted leave in the EU referendum did so because they had any in-depth understanding of economics - whatever they claim after the event.


 yet when we wanted our independence from the EU, Brextiteers were branded racist and xenophobic and stupid to boot.

Nicola Sturgeon accuses Westminster of being xenophobic because they don't want them to leave. Yet she's not xenophobic because she doesn't want to be part of the United Kingdom. ?


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Nicola Sturgeon says what she thinks people want to hear just like all politicians. It's working a treat. Scots who do want to leave the UK are happy, the English take umbrage and start having a go at Scotland thereby causing more Scots to feel more nationalistic.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

kimthecat said:


> yet when we wanted our independence from the EU, Brextiteers were branded racist and xenophobic and stupid to boot.
> 
> Nicola Sturgeon accuses Westminster of being xenophobic because they don't want them to leave. Yet she's not xenophobic because she doesn't want to be part of the United Kingdom. ?


No, I don't think that at all. Many, myself included found the recent Tory conference xenophobic and divisive, that was before Nicola Sturgeon even spoke.

Certainly the SNP don't talk of replacing foreign born staff with Scottish ones nor naming and shaming firms for employing foreign born staff. I could go on...

The way UK Central government have treated Scotland in the past it's no surprise many want independence.

Thatcher implementing the much detested Poll Tax in Scotland a year before the rest of the UK was good evidence of that.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Lilylass said:


> Majority of Scots don't want it so why should we have it forced on us?


I think you might have taken my post a little more seriously than it was intended.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> yet when we wanted our independence from the EU, Brextiteers were branded racist and xenophobic and stupid to boot.
> 
> Nicola Sturgeon accuses Westminster of being xenophobic because they don't want them to leave. Yet she's not xenophobic because she doesn't want to be part of the United Kingdom. ?


Do I need to post the images of "migrants" queuing up used by the leave campaign. Do I need to post the quotes on Turkey joining allowing immigrants flooding into the UK because of it. Do I need to post the video leave used saying immigrants are taking all the NHS places which is why british people have to wait for treatment. Brexiteers weren't branded for leaving the EU. They were branded for both the lies and the acceptance of those lies, scapegoating a minority.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Goblin said:


> Brexiteers weren't branded for leaving the EU. They were branded for both the lies and the acceptance of those lies, scapegoating a minority.


So every person who voted leave lied or believed lies and scrape goated a minority and didn't want to leave because they wanted to be independent and nationalistic/

and no Scots are racist or zenophobic .

Really ? 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-23739952


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

kimthecat said:


> So every person who voted leave lied or believed lies and scrape goated a minority and didn't want to leave because they wanted to be independent and nationalistic/
> 
> and no Scots are racist or zenophobic .
> 
> ...


Present company duly excluded..all nations inclusive .


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Do you deny the main themes of the Brexit leave campaign was based on xenophobia and "make Britain great" or as I said do I need to produce the links etc? Nationalistic, nationalism, sounds great. Normally used by those who want to pretend they are superior to others due to where they were born. Independent, we already were. So to sum up, Immigrants to blame for everything and pretend we are superior due to where we were born. Great combination to vote for. Is that everybody who voted leave, no but enough.

Exactly what happened during the scottish referendum last time... due to the nature of them vs us, racial tensions across the border increased dramatically. However your point wasn't that Scottish people were/are racist it was arguing that being racist was automatic simply because someone wanted to leave. That is not the case for BREXIT or Scotland.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

There's one thing certain. All threads lately seem to lead to Brexit being discussed even if they aren't about Brexit. 

Talk about chip on shoulder situation about the vote. :Facepalm Enough said from me :Muted


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

That will not help:







but was hilarious...surely even up North they found it funny...


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat said:


> Enough said from me :Muted


You normally say that, for about an hour


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Goblin said:


> You normally say that, for about an hour


I hope so!!!!

I understand we all have animals and families to tend to..
@stockwellcat can be excused even for a bit longer...

But not much longer...


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

stockwellcat said:


> There's one thing certain. All threads lately seem to lead to Brexit being discussed even if they aren't about Brexit.
> 
> Talk about chip on shoulder situation about the vote. :Facepalm Enough said from me :Muted


I am sailing, I am sailing,
home again 'cross the sea.
I am sailing, stormy waters,
to be near you, to be free.

I am flying, I am flying,
like a bird 'cross the sky.
I am flying, passing high clouds,
to be with you, to be free.

Can you hear me, can you hear me
thro' the dark night, far away,
I am dying, forever trying,
to be with you, who can say.

Can you hear me, can you hear me,
thro' the dark night far away.
I am dying, forever trying,
to be with you, who can say.

We are sailing, we are sailing,
home again 'cross the sea.
We are sailing stormy waters,
to be near you, to be free.

Oh Lord, to be near you, to be free.
Oh Lord, to be near you, to be free,
Oh Lord.

Free of EU tyranny

Germany tried 2 world wars to get world domination, gave that up as a lost cause then tried banking and politics...it will all crash and burn now (we hope)

Taking Merkle and Sturgeon with it


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Colliebarmy said:


> I am sailing, I am sailing,
> home again 'cross the sea.
> I am sailing, stormy waters,
> to be near you, to be free.
> ...


Can I have some of what he is smoking???

Happy Friday to you CB. Must be.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

"Sailing", originally composed by the Sutherland Brothers in 1972. Nothing against Rod Stewart generally but felt he ruined a great song with his cover version which charted and got to No.1 in the mid '70s.

http://www.45cat.com/record/wip6136


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> There's one thing certain. All threads lately seem to lead to Brexit being discussed even if they aren't about Brexit.
> 
> Talk about chip on shoulder situation about the vote. :Facepalm Enough said from me :Muted


Yes indeed. Perhaps a bit different though seeing a large majority of Scottish voters voted to remain in the EU referendum.

Yes, England and Wales voted for leave. Something I'll never be happy with myself but nevertheless respect the vote at the end of the day.

In the same sense I respect the Scottish and NI vote to remain in the EU. I only wish Central Government in London did so too........


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

KittenKong said:


> Yes indeed. Perhaps a bit different though seeing a large majority of Scottish voters voted to remain in the EU referendum.
> 
> Yes, England and Wales voted for leave. Something I'll never be happy with myself but nevertheless respect the vote at the end of the day.
> 
> In the same sense I respect the Scottish and NI vote to remain in the EU. I only wish Central Government in London did so too........


Tell me how HMG could abide by a majority vote yet still respect Scotland and N.I. voters wishing not to leave WITHOUT breaking up the union?

Wales is happy to leave with England, Gibraltar wants to stay European but doesnt want Spain to take them over....thats having cake and eating it


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Goblin said:


> Do you deny the main themes of the Brexit leave campaign was based on xenophobia and "make Britain great"


Using your logic , then most people voted remain because of "Project Fear ", not because they cared about immigrants etc . Voting Remain doesn't make them _not _ racist or xenophobic.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

I could ask ask why those who voted to leave did so. End of the day for the majority it will revolve around one of those, nationalism and immigrants. I agree voting remain doesn't make people not racist or xenophobic. Then again nobody has said it anything different.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Colliebarmy said:


> Tell me how HMG could abide by a majority vote yet still respect Scotland and N.I. voters wishing not to leave WITHOUT breaking up the union?


I would have thought the union would have a far better chance of surviving had central government respected those countries and be allowed to negotiate Brexit on their terms, not Teresa May's.

Sorry to bring it up again, the Poll Tax proved fatal to the Tory vote in Scotland which they never recovered from.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Scotland is being dragged out of the EU against the will of the majority of its citizens. Added to that Theresa May has locked Nicola Sturgeon out of brexit negotiations. There is no place for Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland in the governments ultimate decision making body on brexit.

Nicola Sturgeon has now put the ball firmly in Theresa May's court - good for her I say!. Will May be the pm who breaks up the UK after 309 years?

This is actually in the SNPs manifesto.












kimthecat said:


> Using your logic , then most people voted remain because of "Project Fear ", not because they cared about immigrants etc . Voting Remain doesn't make them _not _ racist or xenophobic.


If you look on the referendum thread, quite a few of us were posting warnings voting to brexit would fuel xenophobia. Pretty much the whole leave campaign was nasty & divisive centred around scapegoating migrants & whipping up nationalism.

Of course not everyone who voted out are racist, but we were warned a vote for brexit would embolden racists - & it has. And the divisive rhetoric being spewed out by this hard right government is fanning the flames of xenophobia & hate.

If people refuse to recognise racism & take a stand against it (like the person who wrote this) then then we're in big trouble.


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> Using your logic , then most people voted remain because of "Project Fear ", not because they cared about immigrants etc . Voting Remain doesn't make them _not _ racist or xenophobic.


Indeed.

I didn't really take much notice of either campaign so none of the spin influenced my vote tbh

I never wanted to join in the first place 

As for Sturgeon, she is getting carried away by her ego IMO


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

shadowmare said:


> It will need to be higher than that to keep the remain voters from moving up to Scotland!


So true Thank fully you lovely Scottish folk are very welcoming to us foreigners. I have had loads on twitter welcoming to move across the border:Happy


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

I don't think the Nicola Sturgeon and the Scottish people understand what voting to leave the UK means. She is a bit like Theresa May saying Brexit Means Brexit Nicola Sturgeon says indysref2. Lots of Scots want to know what currency you will adopt and how you will trade as you won't instantly get EU membership. The EU made it clear Scotland has to leave the EU with the UK and then apply to rejoin. Then there's the hard border Scotland will have with Northern Ireland and England and the rest of the UK you simply won't be able to get on a train, drive or fly to England, Northern Ireland or the rest of the UK. On top of this there will initially be a hard border with Europe. You won't be given any preferential treatment by the EU to rejoin like Nicola Sturgeon is hoping. If you leave the UK you won't have any preferential treatment from the UK as well. Plus what about all those Scots that live in the UK not Scotland? Didn't think about these things? Nicola Sturgeon, no disrespect hasn't simply got the answers, yes she may get her indysref2 but will leave Scotland in a perilous situation if she achieves it as she really hasn't thought this through properly.


Who will defend Scotland as the Scottish army regiments belongs to the UK crown?
Scotland doesn't have a navy or air force either they belong to the UK crown? Trident belongs to the UK not Scotland. Scotland won't be in NATO if it leaves the UK as the UK is as a whole.
What national security does Scotland have? The UK has MI5 and MI6 etc.
Who will pay for the indysref2? The UK tax payer paid for your first independence Referendum.
How are Scotland going to pay there debts back to the UK and all the subsidies they have had?
How are they going to pay to leave the UK as Westminster won't make this easy? Plus they won't be able to pay with UK tax payers money because they are leaving the UK so won't be able to use the pound or the euro?
This is why Northern Ireland, Wales and Gibraltar are not requesting an independence referendum.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

This is interesting @cheekyscrip 

https://www.commonspace.scot/articl...ltar-plan-joint-offensive-against-hard-brexit

Diplomatic event and meetings in Glasgow create marriage of convenience against Tories

*DIPLOMATIC OFFICIALS from Gibraltar and Scotland pledged to support each other during the negotiations on the UK's planned exit from the European Union at a meeting in Glasgow last night [Thursday 13 October].*

The private reception brought together Gibraltar's deputy chief minister Dr Joseph Garcia, his staff, and the two Scottish Government ministers with direct responsibility for European affairs - cabinet secretary Fiona Hyslop and minister for Europe Alasdair Allan MSP.

Both parties pledged to support each other, given their respective votes to remain within the European Union.

The government of Gibraltar held the event as part of a unique attempt to reach out to the Scottish Government, given its concerns over a 'hard Brexit' threatening its border and trade with neighbouring Spain.

Likewise the Scottish Government, keen the minimise any hit to European links, opposes any attempt to end open trade and free movement with the 27 countries of the European Union.

The reception, which formed part of the SNP Autumn conference, followed previous meetings between Gibraltar and Scottish political officials following the Brexit vote.

Scotland voted by 62 per cent to 38 in favour of remaining within the EU.

Gibraltar, an overseas territory of the UK which is closely attached to the Spanish economy, voted overwhelmingly to remain by 96 per cent.

Dr Garcia told the event: "It's clear to us that we must explore every avenue to make sure that our people, our territories, our countries can remain part of the European Union because that is the wish of our people."

Garcia also met First Minister Nicola Sturgeon and SNP Depute leader Angus Robertson at the conference.

Minister Alasdair Allan addressed the reception on behalf of the Scottish Government.

"We start from a position in the Scottish Government that the people of Gibraltar do have a democratic right and a democratic right that must be respected," he explained.

He added that Scotland and Gibraltar will both challenge the Tory's opposition to free movement of people.

The Spanish Government recently ramped up its rhetoric over the sovereignty of Gibraltar with its acting foreign minister stating that this would be an issue in UK EU exit talks.

Gibraltar, Scotland, the Republic of Ireland, big business and especially the city of London are all pushing for as soft a Brexit as possible in negotiations.

However, the Tories appear to have sided with anti-migrant voters, which would mean leaving the single market to limit the number of internationals who come to the UK.

Picture courtesy of the Government of Gibraltar


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> So true Thank fully you lovely Scottish folk are very welcoming to us foreigners. I have had loads on twitter welcoming to move across the border:Happy


 Will the Scots that live and work in England return home ?


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

kimthecat said:


> Will the Scots that live and work in England return home ?


I dunno


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> Will the Scots that live and work in England return home ?


Hope my MIL does!


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> This is interesting @cheekyscrip
> 
> https://www.commonspace.scot/articl...ltar-plan-joint-offensive-against-hard-brexit
> 
> ...


Gibraltar don't make sense as they don't want to joint sovereignty with Spain but want to leave the UK. Why it doesn't make sense is because not so long ago they wanted to stay in the UK so Spain does not get hold of the rock, but they voted to stay in the EU in the EU referendum. They can't have best of both worlds I am afraid. If they voted to have an independence referendum and win, Spain will claim the rock back which is what the Gibraltarians don't want, but it would be a case of well you voted to leave the UK you suffer the consequences. Again Westminster won't make it easy for Gibraltar to leave and charge them to do so.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

stockwellcat said:


> but they voted to stay in the EU in the EU referendum. They can't have best of both worlds I am afraid.


How could they know in advance of the referendum the result would be to leave the EU?


----------



## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

stockwellcat said:


> I don't think the Nicola Sturgeon and the Scottish people understand what voting to leave the UK means. She is a bit like Theresa May saying Brexit Means Brexit Nicola Sturgeon says indysref2. Lots of Scots want to know what currency you will adopt and how you will trade as you won't instantly get EU membership. The EU made it clear Scotland has to leave the EU with the UK and then apply to rejoin. Then there's the hard border Scotland will have with Northern Ireland and England and the rest of the UK you simply won't be able to get on a train, drive or fly to England, Northern Ireland or the rest of the UK. On top of this there will initially be a hard border with Europe. You won't be given any preferential treatment by the EU to rejoin like Nicola Sturgeon is hoping. If you leave the UK you won't have any preferential treatment from the UK as well. Plus what about all those Scots that live in the UK not Scotland? Didn't think about these things? Nicola Sturgeon, no disrespect hasn't simply got the answers, yes she may get her indysref2 but will leave Scotland in a perilous situation if she achieves it as she really hasn't thought this through properly.
> 
> 
> Who will defend Scotland as the Scottish army regiments belongs to the UK crown?
> ...


I would think Sturgeon has thought all of this through. She may be an evil megalomaniac but she is very far from stupid. She isn't after another referendum at the moment and knows she would lose emphatically.

This is all just a cry for attention. Sturgeon has been proven to be absolutely irrelevant as a politician which is a very uncomfortable place for her so periodically ranting about the neverendum is just to get her back on the tele for a bit. It's all just another flap of the gasping fish out of water that she is.

(Oh, btw, she has answered one of your questions during an interview with Andrew Marr in the run up to the 2014 vote. In the even of an independent vote she intends to renege on Scotland's share of the national debt and leave England with it all.)


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

havoc said:


> How could they know in advance of the referendum the result would be to leave the EU?


Yes but they have always said they wanted to stay in the UK to stop Spain claiming sovereignty over the Rock. Leaving the UK will mean the UK can sell the rock and Spain will want to claim sovereignty over the Rock. Why should the UK stop Spain from doing this as the Rock wouldn't be part of the UK anymore? Gibraltarians have always said they never wanted Spain making claim to the rock.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Satori said:


> *she intends to renege on Scotland's share of the national debt and leave England with it all*.)


Oh well she definitely won't get a second independence referendum if she is planning to do this.

I do love your descriptions of her


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

kimthecat said:


> Will the Scots that live and work in England return home ?


That's like asking if all the Brits currently working in EU countries will give up their jobs and return home. Do you think they should?


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

stockwellcat said:


> Gibraltar don't make sense as they don't want to joint sovereignty with Spain but want to leave the UK. Why it doesn't make sense is because not so long ago they wanted to stay in the UK so Spain does not get hold of the rock, but they voted to stay in the EU in the EU referendum. They can't have best of both worlds I am afraid. If they voted to have an independence referendum and win, Spain will claim the rock back which is what the Gibraltarians don't want, but it would be a case of well you voted to leave the UK you suffer the consequences. Again Westminster won't make it easy for Gibraltar to leave and charge them to do so.


Gibraltar never wanted to leave UK?

Where that came from?

Gibraltar wants to be a part of EU .

Rajoy told May he will make it impossible in the meeting yesterday.
Golden opportunity for Spain to destroy our economy.
If we have to leave what will happen to our pets.. 
Not always possible to take even if Britain will offer some shelter for us.
If Rock becomes Spanish our economy collapses.

If we stay British but frontier closes and no access to single market it collapses too.

Everyone voting for Brexit was happy to sacrifice Gibraltar.

All work we are doing for street cats..all fundraising, all rehoming soon will be for nothing.

Companies are closing already.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

havoc said:


> That's like asking if all the Brits currently working in EU countries will give up their jobs and return home. Do you think they should?


 I'm not asking anyone's opinion on whether the Scots should have up their job or return to Scotland. I'm not suggesting they should either .


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

havoc said:


> That's like asking if all the Brits currently working in EU countries will give up their jobs and return home. Do you think they should?


Funnily...they actually earn one third more now...if paid in euro...

Irony..as contributions to EU are counted in euro..

UK just increased theirs by about one third.

Nice parting gift ...


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Satori said:


> She isn't after another referendum at the moment and knows she would lose emphatically.


If it was solely about independence she would lose, that is why she wants it tied in with BREXIT.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

When Scotland and NI were governed from Westminster but also from Brussels they knew it can go just one way...
TBH Brussels did quite a lot to stop harassment from Spain.

Imagine Spanish minister got told to shut up when again for no reason started bleating about us.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Slight change of topic.. just saw Sturgeon on the news.. Opening word.. "..Friends..". Anyone expecting "romans countrymen" next?


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

cheekyscrip said:


> Gibraltar never wanted to leave UK?
> 
> Where that came from?
> 
> ...


I really feel for you, it's one of the most stupid thing Britain has ever done. I still can't believe so many people fell of the leave campaigns lies.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> I really feel for you, it's one of the most stupid thing Britain has ever done.


But not as stupid as joining in the first place !


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

kimthecat said:


> But not as stupid as joining in the first place !


Would be interesting to hear why you think this, many don't remember a time before we joined the Common Market. I was only eight years old at the time.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> But not as stupid as joining in the first place !


So please explain that. throwaway comment which means nothing. At least when we joined we were allowed a parliamentary debate.


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Goblin said:


> So please explain that. throwaway comment which means nothing. At least when we joined we were allowed a parliamentary debate.


and we had a vote to stay in.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Which was debated in parliament I believe.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> and we had a vote to stay in.


We had a vote in 1975 to leave or stay in after being a member for two years . We voted stay.
We had another to vote to leave or stay in this year and we voted leave.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

KittenKong said:


> Would be interesting to hear why you think this, many don't remember a time before we joined the Common Market. I was only eight years old at the time.


Lots of reason already mentioned in endless threads. Cant believe I have someone in common with Corbyn , we both voted out .

Are your old enough to the stuff about butter mountains etc . It was always in the news at the time

http://www.electronic-recycling.ie/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/butter-mountain.jpg


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Goblin said:


> Which was debated in parliament I believe.


 i don't understand , What was debated , joining the common market in 1973 or the 1975 referendum ?


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Goblin said:


> So please explain that. throwaway comment which means nothing. .


 If it means nothing , whats there to explain?


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Goblin said:


> If it was solely about independence she would lose, that is why she wants it tied in with BREXIT.


Er yes. Things have changed so a politician is looking for political advantage from that change. Is anyone actually surprised or shocked at that?


----------



## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Goblin said:


> Slight change of topic.. just saw Sturgeon on the news.. Opening word.. "..Friends..". Anyone expecting "romans countrymen" next?


" I come to bury Europe, not to praise it... The evil that men ( treaties) do live after them, the good is oft interred with their bones. Thus let it be with Europe. They were my freinds, honest and true to me, but Farage said they were ambitious ( and Farage is an honourable man)...


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Yes, I remember butter mountains and wine lakes in the news and in the newspaper's. That was a different era.

The only thing that hasn't changed is the media's negatively towards Europe.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

KittenKong said:


> Yes, I remember butter mountains and wine lakes in the news and in the newspaper's. That was a different era.


Yes it was a different era but you were asking about those times so that I gave that as an example. 



> The only thing that hasn't changed is the media's negatively towards Europe.


Most of the press were actually Pro Europe at the time of the 1975 referendum .

https://www.theguardian.com/media/g...o-european-bias-in-1975-affect-the-referendum


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

kimthecat said:


> Yes it was a different era but you were asking about those times so that I gave that


Yes I did and you have, many thanks!
I only started looking at the papers in the late '70s where every mention of EEC matters were negative. I can't speak for 1975 though although I do remember watching the results of the referendum with Robert Kee at my grandparents' house. One amusing moment was Kee addressing the Tyne & Wear region as "Tyne & Ware"!

Perhaps I shouldn't have asked you here as this thread's supposed to be about Nicola Sturgeon possible call for another Scottish Independence referendum in the event the current government go for a hard Brexit!


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Actually l think it was me that led this thread astray in the first place.

I do actually admire nicola sturgeon in a way. She fights her corner and doesnt give up.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> Yes it was a different era but you were asking about those times so that I gave that as an example.


Yes, I remember the butter and milk mountains. I cannot remember anytime when we have considered ourselves really part of th EU. It's always been "them Germans, remember the war", "Them french". It's always been the negatives. EU has had problems which were gradually resolved using democracy. Fishing where mistakes were made yet have now turned a corner and stocks are growing. We've had a say in shaping and controlling europe. We've had a say in implementing and maintaining human rights which we were instrumental into introducing the EU. EU is not perfect but we had a chance to be part of europe and it's development. Now we've thrown it all away for spin with the average person losing out rather than gaining anything. All so people can wave a flag and claim a sovereignty which they already had.

Something to consider.. people declare the United Kingdom is better than the EU and the UK needs to leave. The United Kingdom is like the EU with it's different component parts.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Goblin said:


> Yes, I remember the butter and milk mountains. I cannot remember anytime when we have considered ourselves really part of th EU. It's always been "them Germans, remember the war", "Them french". It's always been the negatives. EU has had problems which were gradually resolved using democracy. Fishing where mistakes were made yet have now turned a corner and stocks are growing. We've had a say in shaping and controlling europe. We've had a say in implementing and maintaining human rights which we were instrumental into introducing the EU. EU is not perfect but we had a chance to be part of europe and it's development. Now we've thrown it all away for spin with the average person losing out rather than gaining anything. All so people can wave a flag and claim a sovereignty which they already had.
> 
> Something to consider.. people declare the United Kingdom is better than the EU and the UK needs to leave. The United Kingdom is like the EU with it's different component parts.


As a result Gibraltar will be ruined..
There is danger of UK splitting too..
More people in UK would lose out financially than gain...Britain will be weaker. It already is.

EU will get poorer and weaker too.
Another step into destabilizing the world.

No. I was telling this before and did not change.

I am not a politician looking to further my career gambling the future of the whole nation.

Jack Redwood already promised sacking anti Brexit executives and punishing their companies...
Here goes freedom of speech. Putin must be laughing...

Witch hunt had begun.

Stoke up the stakes according to the best British traditions...


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I dislike the assumption that leaver's voted based simply on what politicians and spin doctors told them. 

IMO none of them can be trusted to tell the truth, whatever side they are on.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

kimthecat said:


> Lots of reason already mentioned in endless threads. *Cant believe I have someone in common with Corbyn , we both voted out .*
> 
> Are your old enough to the stuff about butter mountains etc . It was always in the news at the time
> 
> http://www.electronic-recycling.ie/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/butter-mountain.jpg


According to Blairite Chris Bryant he voted out  Corbyn has more principles in his little finger than that muppet.

- Corbyn opposes fox hunting & all blood sports. He opposes the badger cull. Opposes the privatisation of our NHS. Opposes fracking. Takes climate change seriously. Supports a green economy. Just a few examples. You may not have voted the same way as he did but don't you have these in common with him?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Corbyn opposes fox hunting & all blood sports. He opposes the badger cull. Opposes the privatisation of our NHS. Opposes fracking. Takes climate change seriously. Supports a green economy. Just a few examples.


But would ruin the economy even more if he ever was in power.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

> ="noushka05, post: 1064677273, member: 2189"]According to Blairite Chris Bryant he voted out  Corbyn has more principles in his little finger than that muppet.
> 
> - Corbyn opposes fox hunting & all blood sports. He opposes the badger cull. Opposes the privatisation of our NHS. Opposes fracking. Takes climate change seriously. Supports a green economy. Just a few examples. You may not have voted the same way as he did but don't you have these in common with him?


OK so has it been on record that Corbyn said he voted to stay in the Common Market. ? Lets have this confirmed straight from the horses mouth.
The link I gave in another thread somewhere showed that he abstained or didnt turn up for EU votes though perhaps thats not true and could have been part of a Tory /Blairite plot against him too .

Yes , Corbyn's principles he doesn't stick too when it suits him. Got to love him.
I've mentioned this several times to you but I dont believe Ive had a response , if I've missed it then I apologise in advance. he wants to build a 1million homes and a Northern power house and that really is going to destroy countryside , animals habitats etc ( Why worry about fox hunting , the foxes they can all move to urban /suburban areas , they do well there . ) How do you feel about this ?


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Goblin said:


> But would ruin the economy even more if he ever was in power.


Would he? How does anyone know this? It's unlikely he'll get elected so perhaps we'll never know.....


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

KittenKong said:


> Would he? How does anyone know this? It's unlikely he'll get elected so perhaps we'll never know.....


Corbyn could be elected. If Tories fail badly.
Corbyn is also a man who said he doesn't believe in capitalism.
Well...socialism had been tried and failed spectacularly.

Cuba? North Korea anyone?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> I dislike the assumption that leaver's voted based simply on what politicians and spin doctors told them.


Yet nobody is prepared to debate why they voted that way. What facts back their decision? Instead they simply argue, we are not racist, we didn't fall for spin. Still waiting for any well thought out explanation which is based in facts rather than spin, xenophobia and nationalistic pride pretending the british empire still is applicable.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Didn't we debate this in a thread that went to over a hundred pages ? Whatever any ones say about why they voted out you will pooh pooh it and accuse them of being racist etc etc . If Brexit leavers are racist and xenophobic why would they be part of a "british empire " or part of a commonwealth which are filled with "foreigners" and people of other races.
Come to think of it , you're the racist one not wanting to be part of out commonwealth , you want to be part or the EU where the countries where the population are mainly white .


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> Didn't we debate this in a thread that went to over a hundred pages ?


Amounted to xenophobia about immigrants and Nationalism which people are now denying that they voted for.



> Whatever any ones say about why they voted out you will pooh pooh it and accuse them of being racist etc etc . If Brexit leavers are racist and xenophobic why would they be part of a "british empire " or part of a commonwealth which are filled with "foreigners" and people of other races.


So who was "in charge" of the british empire? You see the idea propagating with the idea that the UK can dictate terms to the EU when it will be the opposite. You think people immigrating in from Jamaica and Belize are going to be treated any different to other immigrants? Can you show me articles where immigrants from the commonwealth are to welcomed in this country?



> Come to think of it , you're the racist one not wanting to be part of out commonwealth , you want to be part or the EU where the countries where the population are mainly white .


You are desparate aren't you. The idea is to be inclusive, not exclusive. It is not an either/or and never has been.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Goblin said:


> Yet nobody is prepared to debate why they voted that way. What facts back their decision? Instead they simply argue, we are not racist, we didn't fall for spin. Still waiting for any well thought out explanation which is based in facts rather than spin, xenophobia and nationalistic pride pretending the british empire still is applicable.


Ok. I'll go first. I voted leave just to p1ss you off.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Satori said:


> Ok. I'll go first. I voted leave just to p1ss you off.


I know it's all a joke for you, but i agree with Goblin. I know several people in here have said they didn't vote leave because of immigration or extra money for NHS. While I'm glad you now have marked a day in your callendar as a new independence day, here is a genuine question from a person who ar life has already been directly negatively affected by all the leave votes: what was the good reason for your leave vote? What direct positive effect have you got or will be getting in 2 years when U.K. is officially out of EU?


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

I voted leave because I oppose the idea of open borders. That is inviting trouble. I also voted leave because I disagree with the fact that European Criminals having a right to stay in our country after they have served there sentence and should rightly be kicked out of our country. I voted leave so the UK can protect its own borders. I voted leave so the UK can make its own laws and not be dictated to by Brussels. The list goes on @Goblin none of the reasons why I voted leave where anything to do with being racist or xenophobic.

In posting this post I am not opening old debates, I am only expressing my opinion.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Satori said:


> Ok. I'll go first. I voted leave just to p1ss you off.


Thanks for proving my point.



stockwellcat said:


> I voted leave because I oppose the idea of open borders. That is inviting trouble. I also voted leave because I disagree with the fact that European Criminals having a right to stay in our country after they have served there sentence and should rightly be kicked out of our country. I voted leave so the UK can protect its own borders. I voted leave so the UK can make its own laws and not be dictated to by Brussels. The list goes on @Goblin none of the reasons why I voted leave where anything to do with being racist or xenophobic.


Why is open borders bad? People who come to the UK from the EU statistically are young, hardworking and contribute far more to the UK than they take out. The UK does protect it's own borders. Leaving the EU doesn't really change that equation.You do realise the fact that EU criminals who serve a sentence over 3 years can be kicked I suppose.

As for laws, I wonder if you can name a law you don't agree with which the UK voted against and came from Brussels. You don't seem to mind and actively support being dictated to be Teresa May, why is Brussels any different? Isn't democracy important anymore.

Of course your list is just a repetition of the leave campaign headlines. Wonder if you can go into detail.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Goblin said:


> So who was "in charge" of the british empire? You see the idea propagating with the idea that the UK can dictate terms to the EU when it will be the opposite. You think people immigrating in from Jamaica and Belize are going to be treated any different to other immigrants? Can you show me articles where immigrants from the commonwealth are to welcomed in this country?
> 
> You are desparate aren't you. The idea is to be inclusive, not exclusive. It is not an either/or and never has been.


Why do you insist on insulting Commonwealth members by calling the Commonwealth a British Empire and be so sneery about it .

The Commonwealth and the EU are different entities .

http://thecommonwealth.org/about-us


*The Commonwealth*
The Commonwealth is a voluntary association of 52 independent and equal sovereign states. It is home to 2.2 billion citizens, of which over 60% are under the age of 30. The Commonwealth includes some of the world's largest, smallest, richest and poorest countries, spanning five regions. Thirty-one of its members are small states, many of them island nations.

Commonwealth countries are supported by an active network of more than 80 intergovernmental, civil society, cultural and professional organisations.

Our guiding principles are contained in the Commonwealth Charter

The EU is an unwieldly, out of control, mess . The larger and more countries ,the harder it is to bring in new laws , I 've lost count of the countries that are near bankrupt and lost count of the bail outs.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> Why do you insist on insulting Commonwealth members by calling the Commonwealth a British Empire and be so sneery about it .


You are the one talking about the commonwealth, not me. Please show me where I've called the Commonwealth a British Empire. I simply mentioned two countries and how immigrants from those two countries would be treated in the streets the same as from any other country despite being from the commonwealth. They would be labelled simply as immigrants, which now has negative connotations to a portion of the country despite in reality being actually a plus. Do you dispute this?



kimthecat said:


> The EU is an unwieldly, out of control, mess . The larger and more countries ,the harder it is to bring in new laws , I 've lost count of the countries that are near bankrupt and lost count of the bail outs.


Wow.. Unwieldy yet far more efficient than the UK governmental structure. Responsible for more people yet actually has less civil servants and far fewer buildings. Out of Control.. sounds good, details to prove it. Countries near bankrupt and bail outs.. So I wonder, why do these countries need bail outs.. could it be their governments failed to reign in things like spending as they had sovereignty over their own affairs... UK had a good deal with bailouts, we never needed to contribute to them again by the way.

Stockwellcat.. come up with that Brussels law yet or are you still searching.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> *Stockwellcat.. come up with that Brussels law yet or are you still searching.*


No I am not still searching, I have found the relevant information regarding the EU laws. I am just not playing your tit for tat childish games as it gets repetitively boring. I have other things to do with my life.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> . I voted leave so the UK can make its own laws and not be dictated to by Brussels.


The EU is not insisting the UK remains in the EU, unlike May who refuses to acknowledge Scotland's position and intends to leave their elected leader out of the negotiations wishing the likes of Johnson, Davis and Fox to dictate on their behalf. Not what I would call democracy and will only fuel the appetite for a second independence referendum.

As for foreign criminals in British prisons, surely UK born people who commit crimes abroad serve sentences in those respective countries?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat said:


> No I am not still searching, I have found the relevant information regarding the EU laws. I am just not playing your tit for tat childish games as it gets repetitively boring. I have other things to do with my life.


The fact you have to search to backup your reason for leaving says it all. I'll could do an even easier one.. what personal benefit is there for the average person in leaving the EU but pretty pointless as you obviously dismiss any question you cannot answer. To your credit, at least you actually tried to make a case.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

shadowmare said:


> What direct positive effect have you got or will be getting in 2 years when U.K. is officially out of EU?


Me personally? I have 2 million U.S. dollars in offshore bank accounts at the moment but I spend in GBP. So I have a considerable direct benefit already from the gbp/usd sell off. So, no - not a joke at all. I can't afford to take that kind of profit lightly.

The benefits for the country as a whole are not in the 2 year time frame; more like 5-7 I would guess though, as I have conceded in the past, nobody really knows. I have a strong passionate belief though that the UK will fare better in the mid-long term because I 'believe' in free trade and in a free market both of which are stifled by EEA membership. I 'believe' that the UK will continue to be dragged down to the lowest common denominator should we remain ecnomically linked to the basket-case economies of the defunct trading bloc of the EEA.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

stockwellcat said:


> I have other things to do with my life.


Really? Would never have guessed.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@Goblin said: ↑
So please explain that. throwaway comment which means nothing. At least when we joined we were allowed a parliamentary debate.
and we had a vote to stay in.

@ Happy Paws said we had a vote to stay in

Goblin said Which was debated in parliament I believe.



kimthecat said:


> i don't understand , What was debated , joining the common market in 1973 or the 1975 referendum ?


I don't believe I've had an answer to this.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Satori said:


> Me personally? I have 2 million U.S. dollars in offshore bank accounts at the moment but I spend in GBP. So I have a considerable direct benefit already from the gbp/usd sell off. So, no - not a joke at all. I can't afford to take that kind of profit lightly.
> 
> The benefits for the country as a whole are not in the 2 year time frame; more like 5-7 I would guess though, as I have conceded in the past, nobody really knows. I have a strong passionate belief though that the UK will fare better in the mid-long term because I 'believe' in free trade and in a free market both of which are stifled by EEA membership. I 'believe' that the UK will continue to be dragged down to the lowest common denominator should we remain ecnomically linked to the basket-case economies of the defunct trading bloc of the EEA.


90% of experts disagree and that's not counting damage to things like UK science. Outside of the EU, the UK would be able to pursue trade deals with other countries. However even if UK exports to China grow in line with strong Chinese economic growth through to 2030, export levels are unlikely to reach anywhere near current levels with the US or EU. Trade deals might well help export growth, especially in goods. Doesn't help services though which contribute 80% of UK GDP. Trade deals for services are rare, the single market being an exception. Service companies are already looking abroad.



kimthecat said:


> @Goblin said: ↑
> So please explain that. throwaway comment which means nothing.


Why was joining stupid. It gave us a say in europe, it allowed us participation in the EU single market which allowed us to attract investment such as japanese car manufacturers. In fact we've used access to the EU to also help both manufacturing and our services sectors. It's encouraged participation in groundbreaking research which has been of tremendous benefit to the UK. It allowed us a say in policies which aren't limited to imaginary national boundaries.

As for parliamentaty debate, try parliamentary debates in both 1973 and 1975. The referendum in 1975 on leaving the EEC where the public voted to stay in was also non-binding. Parliament is sovereign. Policy is not simply decided and implemented by whoever is in number 10.


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

My reasons for leaving were also trade. I have a small business that imports and exports and I too believe that in the long run we will be better off out of the EU. My imported stuff has risen quite sharply in price, but I ain't going to moan - I have to work out how best to make more sales abroad. 

You know what scared the living daylights out of me more was the banking crisis in 2008-2009. Now that really did put the wind up my kilt, but we got through that.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Goblin said:


> Doesn't help services though which contribute 80% of UK GDP.


Economy based on a puff of wind


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

rona said:


> Economy based on a puff of wind


Tell that to the tax man. Financial services contributed 66billion in tax alone. That's not going into details such as employment, economic spending etc. So much for puff of wind


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

> As for parliamentaty debate, try parliamentary debates in both 1973 and 1975. The referendum in 1975 on leaving the EEC where the public voted to stay in was also non-binding. Parliament is sovereign. Policy is not simply decided and implemented by whoever is in number 10.


Thank you . I just lost track of the thread that was all.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> Thank you . I just lost track of the thread that was all.


No problem.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

I wish anyone could prove that it was worth to destroy my country. My livehood and my children's future.

WHAT actually guarantees that Brexit is better for UK?
Makes it more prosperous?

Makes it stronger and it's economy more robust?

Any facts or just wishful thinking?

Yes...destruction of Gibraltar or giving it to Spain is a Great starting point of making Britain Great.


Our costs of living went up about 20% already. Our companies are closing.

How this wanton destruction of what people fought so hard for is going to benefit any of you?

I am sure not only Satori but many other Tori with fat offshore accounts made nice profit.

Like those who bankrolled Brexit.

And are now in control. Of you.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Goblin said:


> No problem.


 These threads sometimes, they make my head spin .

I have a post of yours to respond to from this afternoon , I'm a bit short of time tonight but I will answer , just to say now that i said you said something except you didnt . oops


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

cheekyscrip said:


> I wish anyone could prove that it was worth to destroy my country. My livehood and my children's future.
> 
> WHAT actually guarantees that Brexit is better for UK?
> Makes it more prosperous?
> ...


Don't you worry, Cheeky! Just give it +- 7 years.It will aaaall be good then. People say that it will be good for Great Britain. You know yourself, they said before the referendum that yes, there will be ups and downs for the first couple of years,the pound dropping and some changes in prices are completely normal too. No one said it was going to be easy, but in the long term it will be worth it. What does it matter that your life even if just for a few years will change in a negative way. At least we're all in it together, right?.... Oh no, wait that's what "Better together" people said to the Scottish people... And of course none of these negative "temporary" effects have any big influence on the lives of those who have plenty of money so won't notice how much more they're spending, or those who never set foot outside of their island, or those who live off benefits or are retired/ retiring in the next couple of years... Especially the latter ones. Even if/ when the noose they put around their necks will tighten, they will be able to blame the government. Nah, they will not look back and realise that maybe they fecked themselves and others over. Meanwhile, you, me and other people who in one way or another enjoyed and benefited from being part of EU will be "in it together". And every little thing that has been and will continue influencing my life for the worse, I will hold every single brexiteer accountable for this.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

shadowmare said:


> Don't you worry, Cheeky! Just give it +- 7 years.It will aaaall be good then. People say that it will be good for Great Britain. You know yourself, they said before the referendum that yes, there will be ups and downs for the first couple of years,the pound dropping and some changes in prices are completely normal too. No one said it was going to be easy, but in the long term it will be worth it. What does it matter that your life even if just for a few years will change in a negative way. At least we're all in it together, right?.... Oh no, wait that's what "Better together" people said to the Scottish people... And of course none of these negative "temporary" effects have any big influence on the lives of those who have plenty of money so won't notice how much more they're spending, or those who never set foot outside of their island, or those who live off benefits or are retired/ retiring in the next couple of years... Especially the latter ones. Even if/ when the noose they put around their necks will tighten, they will be able to blame the government. Nah, they will not look back and realise that maybe they fecked themselves and others over. Meanwhile, you, me and other people who in one way or another enjoyed and benefited from being part of EU will be "in it together". And every little thing that has been and will continue influencing my life for the worse, I will hold every single brexiteer accountable for this.


My friends who volunteer for Spanish Stray Cats, all English by the way, already pay much more for rent as they earn in pounds in Gibraltar and rent in Spain...
Donations from Gibraltar are in pounds too and now buy much less food .
So soon they would face the saddest choice.
Which ones have to go.

I keep those who voted Brexit accountable.
Same situation with Spanish Stray Dogs. English and other volunteers working in Gibraltar. Fundrising among expats and Gibraltarians...

Our Save Gibraltar Street Cats will face lack of funds too.

I give what I can but value of my pay went down by 20%...

For how long we can provide food, treatments TNR if we only have donations?

TM visited Spain. Maybe she should have come here
I


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

cheekyscrip said:


> I wish anyone could prove that it was worth to destroy my country. My livehood and my children's future.
> 
> WHAT actually guarantees that Brexit is better for UK?
> Makes it more prosperous?
> ...


I don't think any future is provable is it?


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

shadowmare said:


> Don't you worry, Cheeky! Just give it +- 7 years.It will aaaall be good then. People say that it will be good for Great Britain. You know yourself, they said before the referendum that yes, there will be ups and downs for the first couple of years,the pound dropping and some changes in prices are completely normal too. No one said it was going to be easy, but in the long term it will be worth it. What does it matter that your life even if just for a few years will change in a negative way. At least we're all in it together, right?.... Oh no, wait that's what "Better together" people said to the Scottish people... And of course none of these negative "temporary" effects have any big influence on the lives of those who have plenty of money so won't notice how much more they're spending, or those who never set foot outside of their island, or those who live off benefits or are retired/ retiring in the next couple of years... Especially the latter ones. Even if/ when the noose they put around their necks will tighten, they will be able to blame the government. Nah, they will not look back and realise that maybe they fecked themselves and others over. Meanwhile, you, me and other people who in one way or another enjoyed and benefited from being part of EU will be "in it together". And every little thing that has been and will continue influencing my life for the worse, I will hold every single brexiteer accountable for this.


So you don't care which direction the country takes other than in so far as it effects you personally.

Same for everyone who voted actually.

Nobody is altruistic when it comes to politics.

But more people thought it better to leave than to stay.

Thankfully we live in a democracy.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Satori said:


> I don't think any future is provable is it?


Not funny.
No need to be flippant .
Their future is different when I cannot fund their further education. That much is provable.

We are paid in pounds. .Food for my dog went from 3.25 to 4. For cat from1.25 to 1.97!...
And so on. Less money earned less donated for the animals my charity works for.

When we run out of options I would make a special thread on Rainbow Bridge...
Maybe you can find it amusing too...


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Satori said:


> I don't think any future is provable is it?


Well so far "project fear" seems more accurate than the leave campaign. The 90% of experts predictions seems to be more in line. The leave's spin doesn't seem to be accurate at all.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

cheekyscrip said:


> Not funny.
> No need to be flippant .
> Their future is different when I cannot fund their further education. That much is provable.
> 
> ...


No meant to be funny. You keep asking people to "prove" that brexit is a good thing. You are being ridiculous. That's why I asked you on the other thread to "prove" that it isn't a good thing; just coming down to your level of argument.

(Preferred your pre-edit post btw. Think I wouldn't notice?)


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Goblin said:


> Well so far "project fear" seems more accurate than the leave campaign. The 90% of experts predictions seems to be more in line. The leave's spin doesn't seem to be accurate at all.


You see, it is this level of banality that results in your posts not being answered seriously. You say that 90% of experts support your case. Bullsh1t. You have spoken to every expert on the planet have you? Every expert I know has agreed with me. Fact, because I define 'expert' the way you do as anybody who supports my bias. Not a critisism, just the way we all work. Beliefs are malleable.

Your interest in remain is purely selfish. All that you care about is your long term residence status in Germany. That's fine but please stop trying to dress it up as something else. You are transparent.

I'm done with this crap. No point casting pearls etc.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Satori said:


> You see, it is this level of banality that results in your posts not being answered seriously. You say that 90% of experts support your case. Bullsh1t. You have spoken to every expert on the planet have you? Every expert I know has agreed with me. Fact, because I define 'expert' the way you do as anybody who supports my bias. Not a critisism, just the way we all work. Beliefs are malleable.


Well known statistic unlike your say so.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/28/economists-reject-brexit-boost-cameron
https://www.politicshome.com/news/e...remain-90-economists-say-brexit-would-harm-uk
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-say-brexit-will-damage-economy-a6898886.html
http://marketbusinessnews.com/90-economists-believe-brexit-harm-uk-economic-growth/136434 (ok I'll give you 2% as this is only 88%)



> Your interest in remain is purely selfish. All that you care about is your long term residence status in Germany. That's fine but please stop trying to dress it up as something else. You are transparent.


So you are the expert and obviously know all my motivations? Maybe you should look at look term residency in the EU, a right guaranteed, unlike in the UK at the present time.
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32003L0109&from=EN​Then there's the fact I am married to a German with family born in germany which again gives protection under EU law. Somehow I don't see residency being a problem long or short term. However I have other family, including retired parents in the UK and family in NI. This family doesn't have a million in offshore accounts and will suffer like the majority of the population unlike those gambling on the long gain who can afford to get out of dodge if or when things go even more badly.

So instead of attacking my reasoning, how about sticking to facts on the advantages of Brexit as nobody yet seems to able to provide any.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

All I can say as an English person is Brexit represents everything I hate.

Many will mourn the loss of the things we took for granted such as free movement when it happens. Many seem to forget this applies to UK citizens moving to Europe as well as citizens moving here. Why people think the possibility of holidaying abroad could become prohibitively expensive for many being a good thing baffles me.

Very many were not even born when they last used the blue passports. A return to that would be as alien as the burgundy ones would've been to patriots when introduced during the '80s.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Satori said:


> You see, it is this level of banality that results in your posts not being answered seriously. You say that 90% of experts support your case. Bullsh1t. You have spoken to every expert on the planet have you? Every expert I know has agreed with me. Fact, because I define 'expert' the way you do as anybody who supports my bias. Not a critisism, just the way we all work. Beliefs are malleable.
> 
> Your interest in remain is purely selfish. All that you care about is your long term residence status in Germany. That's fine but please stop trying to dress it up as something else. You are transparent.
> 
> I'm done with this crap. No point casting pearls etc.


Absolutely.
We agree again. The pearls of your wisdom should do better invested more profitably...
So still no estimates?
The next seven years?
None you came up or can quote?

Ridiculous. Because I am asking...
Or ridiculous, that there are none...

Or is it classified?
When Scots were counting costs of independent Scotland the had some ideas ?

Published!

I can only be convinced if see data.

So far the only available estimates are how much we are going to lose because of Brexit.

Except 350 mln for NHS. Weekly. Om the buses.

I am sure those who have money enough to make more quickly not only voted for but also bankrolled the whole Brexit.

I am sure that there are those would make profit.

But profits are also made on wars...


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

kimthecat said:


> OK so has it been on record that Corbyn said he voted to stay in the Common Market. ? Lets have this confirmed straight from the horses mouth.
> The link I gave in another thread somewhere showed that he abstained or didnt turn up for EU votes though perhaps thats not true and could have been part of a Tory /Blairite plot against him too .
> 
> Yes , Corbyn's principles he doesn't stick too when it suits him. Got to love him.
> I've mentioned this several times to you but I dont believe Ive had a response , if I've missed it then I apologise in advance. he wants to build a 1million homes and a Northern power house and that really is going to destroy countryside , animals habitats etc ( Why worry about fox hunting , the foxes they can all move to urban /suburban areas , they do well there . ) How do you feel about this ?


He is allowed to change his mind lol Just check out his voting history & his expenses record, you'll be hard pushed to find a more principled politician than Corbyn. Yes he was a euro-sceptic - as was I. After listening to experts I changed my mind. Corbyn has a team of experts advising him, though I don't think he would have needed them to be fully aware that if we left the EU we would be left at the mercy of a hard right government - as we are! There is a plot by the PLP to undermine Corbyn. Do you honestly believe Corbyn told someone like Bryant he voted leave?  I think when Corbyn said he was 7.5 for staying in the EU - he was being honest. Do I think he should have been quite so honest about that? No, I don't. He & the other progressive MPs however, had hoped we would remain so they could change the EU for the better from within. Putting our economy aside, the best chance we had to tackle climate change was collectively within the EU.

I have answered you at least twice that I remember lol. The other day I said I always choose the least damaging. And Corbyns policies are extremely green. The same cannot be said of the tories! Their ideology means nothing is sacred no matter how precious or rare. Ancient woodland is no longer protected, threatened habitats rich in biodiversity - all up for grabs. Did you read the links I posted on the infrastructure bill? Corbyn supports a green economy, where a sensitive approach to the environment is at the heart of development. I have yet to hear an environmentalist or green NGO criticise his vision. https://thegreeneconomy.org/tag/jeremy-corbyn/
_
For those who want a new kind of politics, a fairer Britain and a transition to a green economy, Corbyn does present a genuine opportunity. There is the chance to support a leader who might, for once, put the needs of the people and the planet before that of big business. If it can't be done now, with thousands joining rallies, thousands joining the party, thousands actually getting involved in politics, it can't be done._

And there is plenty of room to build 1m houses. According to experts there's enough land to accommodate 2.4 million on brown field sites alone. Then theres landbanking scandal, all the tens of thousands of acres of land bought up by developers sat doing nothing waiting for the market to go up. So I accept we have a dreadful housing crisis, if houses need to be built I want biodiversity taken into account & I want them to be carbon neutral.

This is Corbyns manifesto on 'pernicious' land banking -









Now you are aware there is land to build 1 million houses without ripping up our countryside, do you not think Corbyn is right to want to tackle the housing crisis? He wants to build 1 million affordable & social houses. The tories have also said they want to build 1 million houses - https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/sep/21/1m-more-homes-in-england-by-2020-government How many of these do you think will be affordable or social housing? 

If you genuinely care about the green belt, it isn't Corbyn you should be worried about -
http://www.cpre.org.uk/media-centre...illion-houses-now-planned-for-green-belt-land

This is 'democracy' for ya  https://www.foe.co.uk/news/leaked-l...rce-fracking-communities#.WAR0rcQOGQk.twitter



cheekyscrip said:


> Corbyn could be elected. If Tories fail badly.
> Corbyn is also a man who said he doesn't believe in capitalism.
> Well...socialism had been tried and failed spectacularly.
> 
> Cuba? North Korea anyone?


If they fail badly? Is it even possible to fail any more badly??:Hilarious Can you imagine if labour were responsible for this shambles lol

It was socialism that gave us our NHS & our welfare state - its 'disaster capitalism' that is destroying them. And the government will use the massive downturn in the economy to as an excuse to finish off our NHS. It will be a lie though because funding health care is a political choice.

There are different kinds of socialists. Corbyn is a democratic socialist - he wants to give MORE democracy to the people below not less Cheeky lol. This is why he has a huge grass roots following, he represents their best interests and they know it. And this is why the establishment are constantly attacking and undermining him. Like Bernie Sanders over in the USA, Corbyn cannot be bought.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

I cant help but feel sorry for this guy on James O'Brien radio show. He admits he fell for the 'Take back control' soundbites & will say sorry to his Son for voting out.

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/repentant-leave-brexit-voter-chokes-up-tear-son/

Truck driver Richard calls James O'Brien to admit that he "feels stupid" for voting to leave the European Union and will say sorry to his 13-year-old son for that.

In the latest of a series of remarkable calls on the impact of the Brexit vote, Richard told James: "I've got a lump in my throat and I've got a tear in my eye. I'm just worried.



"It takes a lot to admit it," the caller said, saying he had fallen for soundbites like "take back control" during the campaign. "I feel stupid."

"You're not stupid," James reassured him.

"I feel like I'm articulate, I'm well-read, but to be sucked in by these lies!"

Movingly, the caller also said that he feels so bad about his vote, he plans on apologising to his 13-year-old son.

"How many people listening to me now are thinking: we're the same as Rich?

"My lad's 13. When he's older...I will apologise to him. I will say sorry to him."


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Satori said:


> I don't think any future is provable is it?


Maybe not but so far nobody has bothered to offer a real advantage to leaving. If it's about trade then why not explain how trade has been choked by membership of the EU and exactly how it will be better/easier after leaving. If it's about control of our borders then what exactly will the difference be? Everyone who voted to leave had their own reasons for doing so but won't say how what mattered to them will be improved.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

havoc said:


> Maybe not but so far nobody has bothered to offer a real advantage to leaving. If it's about trade then why not explain how trade has been choked by membership of the EU and exactly how it will be better/easier after leaving. If it's about control of our borders then what exactly will the difference be? Everyone who voted to leave had their own reasons for doing so but won't say how what mattered to them will be improved.


Surely costs of leaving against gains from not contributing to EU could be assessed ?

Economic growth? Inflation?

We knew what they were if we continued in EU.

So we cannot we know how those we expectations change?

Surely if you run a business you base any changes on calculations?
Not just because you are told it is great idea?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Looks like 'taking back control' is going to prove expensive Who'd have thought Theresa May's govt are considering making British taxpayers fund the City of Londons single market access!. No money in the pot for our NHS though !!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Satori said:


> No meant to be funny. You keep asking people to "prove" that brexit is a good thing. You are being ridiculous.


Why is it ridiculous to ask those who claim to have some superior knowledge what we're going to gain? Those of us who didn't vote to leave couldn't see the advantage in doing so. Those who did must have some idea of why they thought it was a good thing. How exactly is it going to benefit me - and when?


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> Looks like 'taking back control' is going to prove expensive Who'd have thought Theresa May's govt are considering making British taxpayers fund the City of Londons single market access!. *No money in the pot for our NHS though !!
> *
> I don't think the NHS needs more money thrown at it*.* Better management and administration would be a good start though.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Satori said:


> So you don't care which direction the country takes other than in so far as it effects you personally.
> 
> Same for everyone who voted actually.


Not for me. If you remember I was rather on the fence because I knew my pension would be at risk if we voted out. I chose to go against that and vote for the greater good


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Is this in code


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Looks like 'taking back control' is going to prove expensive


Hardly Hard Brexit. Countries with capability and their own financial sectors are actively courting our service sector so will be against it. That's ignoring the fact that May is assuming the UK can cherry pick what they get when leaving. Two choices currently from the EU. Hard Brexit or No Brexit.



samuelsmiles said:


> I don't think the NHS needs more money thrown at it*.* Better management and administration would be a good start though.







As an addition, I wonder, all the drugs and equipment used by the NHS. I take it they are all paid for and prices set in sterling? If not the money given to the NHS isn't going to go as far.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> I have answered you at least twice that I remember lol. The other day I said I always choose the least damaging. And Corbyns policies are extremely green.


oh dear , I don't remember that at all . I will write that down and pin it tp my PC desk . Im sorry .

If there's not much difference between damaging and least damaging , thats not going to make much difference.



> If you *genuinely* care about the green belt, it isn't Corbyn you should be worried about -


Ouch!

Yes . I know what the Tory government are up to and we already discussed this in a previous Brexit thread when I bought the subject up and condemned them . What makes you think I'm not worried .

Just because I don't like Corbyn and find his Messiah- like status and his disciples creepy that doesn't mean I support the Tories.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I still cant believe that Cameron didn't have a plan B. What a div .


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Hardly Hard Brexit. Countries with capability and their own financial sectors are actively courting our service sector so will be against it. That's ignoring the fact that May is assuming the UK can cherry pick what they get when leaving. Two choices currently from the EU. Hard Brexit or no Brexit.


Yes, the arrogance and the "we're superior" mentality. Bit like a Leave voter I spoke to before the referendum insisting free movement to the UK would cease but not the other way round.

Think they'll all be in for a "Short, Sharp, Shock"......


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

KittenKong said:


> Yes, the arrogance and the "we're superior" mentality. Bit like someone I spoke to before the referendum believing free movement to the UK would cease but not the other way round.
> 
> Think they'll all be in for a "Short, Sharp, Shock"......


There are costs for British economy.
Then there are costs of the effect on environment, science, education, culture , sport...all that will suffer damage.

Pensions and saving took a direct hit.

Gibraltar will collapse and 30k Brits will have to back losing all that they worked for.
Go where? Rehomed ?

Then expats who.invested life saving and pensions in their homes abroad yet might not be able to maintain themselves anymore either either because their pensions lost value or because they will need work permit.

There are about 2mln Brits abroad that would be affected.

How many years of austerity?

Because I have to feed my children NOW.
Not in seven years. Then they will be adults.
My dog and cat will be most likely dead by then ...

So?
Can anyone please show any estimates, trends, prediction based on data from reliable sources that it will get actually better than before Brexit?

Thought that Brexit supporters here actually criticised austerity measures?

What guarantees that all those losses and damages will make Britain Great again?

I am a scientist , not a crystal ball gazer and I need data plus their sources to believe.

Remain had those.
Leave had slogans. And 350 mln weekly for NHS now deemed impossible.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

havoc said:


> Maybe not but so far nobody has bothered to offer a real advantage to leaving. If it's about trade then why not explain how trade has been choked by membership of the EU and exactly how it will be better/easier after leaving. If it's about control of our borders then what exactly will the difference be? Everyone who voted to leave had their own reasons for doing so but won't say how what mattered to them will be improved.


We've had deflection, trying to change the issue away. We've also had a couple of people who at least try. We've had someone complain Brussels makes our laws but isn't able to name one of those laws. We've had the standard spin from others such as bloated EU when it's more efficient than the UK. We've had the leave spin regurgitated which people cannot back up when asked for more than nifty headlines.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

@samuelsmiles


> I don't think the NHS needs more money thrown at it. Better management and administration would be a good start though.


If you're actually interested in facts please watch the video Goblin posted.



kimthecat said:


> oh dear , I don't remember that at all . I will write that down and pin it tp my PC desk . Im sorry .
> 
> If there's not much difference between damaging and least damaging , thats not going to make much difference.
> 
> ...


lol I didn't go in to detail last time because you didn't respond to that post. Now I have posted details you can see there is a massive difference. A green economy couldn't be more different from the neoliberal ideology of unsustainable infinite growth. A green economy is the only way to ensure sustainable development.

Because you seemed more concerned that Corbyn wants to alleviate the housing crisis than anything else. Even after I gave you links to show the infrastructure bill poses the gravest danger to our natural heritage, to our climate targets - to us all, you appeared to be dismissive. I found that puzzling for someone who cares about the environment.

I apologise if I offended.



Goblin said:


> Hardly Hard Brexit. Countries with capability and their own financial sectors are actively courting our service sector so will be against it. That's ignoring the fact that May is assuming the UK can cherry pick what they get when leaving. Two choices currently from the EU. Hard Brexit or No Brexit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh look, yet another absurdity here - Government pay corporations they maintain for free if we stay in the single market. https://www.ft.com/content/68c12fbe-920e-11e6-8df8-d3778b55a923

Isn't brexit going great....


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Something from "Vote Leave Watch" worth reading.

As Scotland is also mentioned it's relevant to this thread.

http://www.voteleavewatch.org.uk/ne...19&utm_medium=email&utm_source=voteleavewatch


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

KittenKong said:


> Something from "Vote Leave Watch" worth reading.


Ian Duncan Smith when pressed during the campaign said workers rights should be "flexible". All part of the red tape businesses complain about.


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