# BSH Colour predictions



## becbec31 (Jun 26, 2009)

Was wondering if anyone could help me I have a cream self BSH girl. She carrys colourpoint. She has black and lilac in her pedigrees. And I have a blue boy who carries colourpoint and has lialc, choc and black in his pedigree. What colours could I expect from a mating between these two? I have some idea but wondered what a more experienced breeder may suggest. 
Thanks


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

It would depend what base colour your cream girl is and what she carries - what are her parents ? All boys from the mating will be creams though, self and colour point. All girls will be tortie in definitely blue, possibly lilac. Do you have caramel in BSH?


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## becbec31 (Jun 26, 2009)

Her parents were cream self dad and black tortie mother


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## becbec31 (Jun 26, 2009)

In British Shorthairs we dont have a caramal colour, Not commonly anyay there is a fawn variety which is still fairly new. My boy by the way has a lilac mother and a cream father.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Do you know what base the Dad is? She is probably blue based but thats not definite. Is she quite a cool cream ? Chocolate based creams/reds are supposed to be brighter.

As the above then definitely cream boys, blue tortie (blue/cream) girls - maybe lilac tortie girls - all in self and colourpoint.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

becbec31 said:


> In British Shorthairs we dont have a caramal colour, Not commonly anyay there is a fawn variety which is still fairly new. My boy by the way has a lilac mother and a cream father.


So he definitely carries chocolate then, if your girl does then lilac torties are a possibility.

Are there cinnamon british then ? How lovely :001_tt1:


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## becbec31 (Jun 26, 2009)

yes cinnamon and fawn. They are lovely and as I said still not that common in BSh. My girl is a apricoty cream not really pale but not too deep, certainly not a red looking cream, howver her litter mate was a red! I love predicting colours but it gets so confusing. Thought I had it all thought out last litter and was completely wrong got one colour i was exoecting, I mated my lilac tortie colourpoint to a choc self and got a creams self, a red self and a red colourpoint!

My cream girls mother is a black red tortie (grandparents were Black smoke and cream) her father a cream self whose dad was a lilac colourpoint and mother a blue cream.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

saikou - what do you mean by colour base - is this a BSH thing cos a cream birman is just a dilute red? OOO, I'm excited there might be more gentics stuff to leanr


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

Dont think she will get any self females?

Wouldnt she get all cream males in self or cp

Blue cream or lilac tortie girls in self or cp

Cinnamons are gorgeous arent they


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

becbec31 said:


> yes cinnamon and fawn. They are lovely and as I said still not that common in BSh. My girl is a apricoty cream not really pale but not too deep, certainly not a red looking cream, howver her litter mate was a red! I love predicting colours but it gets so confusing. Thought I had it all thought out last litter and was completely wrong got one colour i was exoecting, I mated my lilac tortie colourpoint to a choc self and got a creams self, a red self and a red colourpoint!
> 
> My cream girls mother is a black red tortie (grandparents were Black smoke and cream) her father a cream self whose dad was a lilac colourpoint and mother a blue cream.


I just googled, they look gorgeous. I think choccie BSH are lovely to, cinnys even better. Those colours look great with their lovely plush coats.

She definitely has a chance of carrying choc or being choc based then. Time will tell, if you get lilac torties then you will know at least she is a carrier. You would need to mate her to a choc to see what her base is. Any blue torties in that litter then she is definitely blue based, all lilac torties and she is choc/lilac based.



spid said:


> saikou - what do you mean by colour base - is this a BSH thing cos a cream birman is just a dilute red? OOO, I'm excited there might be more gentics stuff to leanr


No its the same for all cats. The O genes are a separate group of genes and are not a colour gene as such, they still have their main colour genes as well. So a red can either be black, choc or cinny based and a cream blue, lilac or fawn based. Its the base colour that helps you predict the colour of any any non red/cream kittens in the litter.

My cream point siamese is blue based, so breeds as a blue point, but with the O stuff thrown in.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Jen26 said:


> Dont think she will get any self females?


self as in non colour point, but definitely all torties


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

Saikou said:


> self as in non colour point, but definitely all torties


I get ya now lol


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

All boys cream 

All girls tortie (75% blue 25% lilac assuming the girl is blue based and that both carry chocolate which wasn't clear from what you said)

25% colourpoint (colours as above)

Liz


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## becbec31 (Jun 26, 2009)

My girls litter mate sister (a red self) had a litter consisting of a red colourpoint, a choc tortie, a lilac tortie and black and red tortie so am hopeful my girl will 2 carry lilac.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

It will be a lovely pastel litter  Very easy on the eye


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## becbec31 (Jun 26, 2009)

lizward said:


> All boys cream
> 
> All girls tortie (75% blue 25% lilac assuming the girl is blue based and that both carry chocolate which wasn't clear from what you said)
> 
> ...


Sorry Liz if i wasnt clear in what i said but I am fairly new to this which is why im asking for advice. And as I have said in the past mother nature has thrown in some unexpected colours. My girl and boy both have lilac and choc in their pedigrees so time will tell if they both carry Im hopeful they do.


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

becbec31 said:


> Was wondering if anyone could help me I have a cream self BSH girl. She carrys colourpoint. She has black and lilac in her pedigrees. And I have a blue boy who carries colourpoint and has lialc, choc and black in his pedigree. What colours could I expect from a mating between these two? I have some idea but wondered what a more experienced breeder may suggest.
> Thanks


According to my colour chart you'd get cream boys and lilac-cream or blue-cream girls - with same colour combos in CP.

If boy has a lilac parent then he definitely carries lilac


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

You have your colour combinations confirmed 4 or 5 fold now  Its handy that everyone agrees :thumbup: :smilewinkgrin:


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

so if you have a vcream girl how do you tell what base she is - just from the pedigrees. 

For example, I'm getting blue tortie soon, if I put her to a red boy I'll get creams - how would I know what their base was? would it be blue cos of mum?


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## becbec31 (Jun 26, 2009)

Yes thanks for all your replies much appreciated!! :smile5: I will hopefully be able to tell you for sure in March!

xx


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

How about some piccies wink wink


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

spid said:


> so if you have a vcream girl how do you tell what base she is - just from the pedigrees.
> 
> For example, I'm getting blue tortie soon, if I put her to a red boy I'll get creams - how would I know what their base was? would it be blue cos of mum?


You can either tell from the pedigree, or breeding. Its not always evident from the pedigree.

For instance my cream girl has a red Dad (who is chocolate based carrying dilute) and a blue tortie Mum who carries chocolate. Millie could either have been lilac or blue based impossible to tell from her parentage. First litter she was mated to a lilac and produced a blue tortie - ergo must be blue based. If she was lilac based all the girls would have been lilac.

A blue tortie mated to a red - the stud owner should be able to tell you what base he is and what colours he carries. You will only get creams from that mating if Dad also carries dilute.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

spid said:


> so if you have a vcream girl how do you tell what base she is - just from the pedigrees.
> 
> For example, I'm getting blue tortie soon, if I put her to a red boy I'll get creams - how would I know what their base was? would it be blue cos of mum?


Yes - except that if Mum and Dad both carry chocolate you could also get lilac based.

Liz


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

how would you know? The stud i'm hoping to use (in a year or so) - does carry choc, and my girl hopefully will carry choc (will test her when I get her) as both mum and dad carry choc.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

How would you know what ? I would ask the stud owner what base the stud is. Carrying choc could mean either he is chocolate based or that he is black based carrying chocolate. Is his pedigree online anywhere?


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

how would you know whether a cream girl out of those two parents was blue or lilac based? I'll ask the stud owner when the time comes.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

You wouldn't unless you test mated, or possibly dna tested.


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

just been reading this thread on colour predictions and it is one thing that confuses me ... lack of experience.lol I get the basic genetics of dominant and recessive colours and dilute etc. But I still find it difficult to work out. for example I have a black shaded tortie siberian and I was hoping to mate her to a black smoke. both cats have the silver gene so what would I be expecting from this, or if she was put to a brown tabby carrying golden? it is all confusing. I know you can get pedigree software that works it out for you but I would also like to understand it myself. Does anyone know of any helpful educational websites/colour charts etc I could follow. Do you get all tortie females when the red gene is present? if you have a tortie will her girls always be tortie aswell?
Thanks alot of questions I know


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Okay, I can't do the silver, smoke or gold stuff (Birmans don't have those shades so I can't seem to get it to stick) - but I can do the basic tortie stuff - if you mate a tortie to a red or cream boy then you can get red or cream girls as well as tortie girls. 

Putting your girl to a black (assuming neither carry dilute or chocolate) will give you (irrespective of smoke/ shaded etc) 

black and red boys 
and black and black tortie girls


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

spid said:


> Okay, I can't do the silver, smoke or gold stuff (Birmans don't have those shades so I can't seem to get it to stick) - but I can do the basic tortie stuff - if you mate a tortie to a red or cream boy then you can get red or cream girls as well as tortie girls.
> 
> Putting your girl to a black (assuming neither carry dilute or chocolate) will give you (irrespective of smoke/ shaded etc)
> 
> ...


Thanks I think I need to break it down as I am over complicating things with the smoke aswell. I know the silver gene is dominant and smoke is apart of this series so I guess if both cats have the silver gene then they will be the above colours with smoke/shaded so red shaded, tortie shaded, etc. Looking at the girls ped her mother is a blue/silver torbie and dad a black self so I am assuming thats how I got a black tortie shaded cat as he was a dominant colour but has a blue mack. tabby further back in pedigree and also a black silver torbie, but most of the colours on his side are mainly dominant apart from one so small chance he will be a carrier of dilute I guess?
Studs pedigree I dont have all off but mum silver tabby and dad a brown tabby both dominant colours hence why stud is a black smoke (dominat colour in black tabby) does that mean both cats only have one tabby gene to produce a non tabby cat?
So either way I should be expecting all kittens with the silver gene, whats the chance of silver tabbies, someone told me you get alot of throw back so strange colours popping up that you dont expect not sure what they mean by throw back? You dont have chocolate, cinnamon, lilac and those sorts of colours in sibbies there not allowed? Just traditional and cp cats only
I have robinsons book on genetics at home but it gets complicated when you put all the things together as it talks about adding the long hair gene etc aswell, gets confusing
Thanks


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

the thing with dominant colours is that they are only dominant *in the gene pair *- NOT in the amount of sperm that carry that gene. SO IF the boy carries dilute (and you can gene test for that) and the girl carries dilute and those two genes end up in an egg then the cat is dilute - it is only if the one dilute gene ends up with another domininant gene in an egg that then dominance comes in to play. You are right on the tabby gene, both his parents had to be carrying the solid gene. Your girls is a self and as the tabby gene isn't carried, you are either tabby (have the gene) or non tabby (don't have the gene) , so as the stud is a self/solid you have you can't get tabbies, with mating her to the black.

With the brown tabby - if he carries two tabby genes then all tabbies, if he carries 1 tabby gene then 50% tabby.

Throw back wise - that's just laziness in not gene testing the cats to see what they carry - my girl carries chocolate (she had a 1 in 16 chance of doing so), but I gene tested and she does - had I not gene tested and had a chcoclate ina litter I could have said it was a throw back! Try this lab Cat Tests - it's about $40 for a test and the turnaround time is about 10 days even though they are in USA - it's a simple cheek swab.

As i said - I don't know about silver or smoke or shading - but I looked this up on the net and it seems that . . . for silver - it depends whether the cats carry two copies of the gene or one - if both carry two copies then all will be silver. I THINK it works the same as for tabbies - so with just one siver gene each you would get 75% silvers, but if even one of them carries two copies of the inhibitor gene (sivler) then you get 100% silvers. So if you have 100% silvers then all your tabbies will be silver tabies, but if you have 75% silver then 3/4rs of your tabbies will be silver and the other 25% normal tabby.

Hope that helps.


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

spid said:


> the thing with dominant colours is that they are only dominant *in the gene pair *- NOT in the amount of sperm that carry that gene. SO IF the boy carries dilute (and you can gene test for that) and the girl carries dilute and those two genes end up in an egg then the cat is dilute - it is only if the one dilute gene ends up with another domininant gene in an egg that then dominance comes in to play. You are right on the tabby gene, both his parents had to be carrying the solid gene. Your girls is a self and as the tabby gene isn't carried, you are either tabby (have the gene) or non tabby (don't have the gene) , so as the stud is a self/solid you have you can't get tabbies, with mating her to the black.
> 
> With the brown tabby - if he carries two tabby genes then all tabbies, if he carries 1 tabby gene then 50% tabby.
> 
> ...


Thanks 
you explain in simple easy to understand forms, I get what you mean now as even though the boy is a black smoke he is a solid colour which is recessive to tabby, Silver is dominant. are thats a shame I would have liked a silver tabby, but my new boy is a brown tabby so I guess I will get them with him and my silver girls. My silver girls dad is golden and she has golden tarnishing is this an indicator that she is not carrying two silver genes or does it not work like that? so if there is only 1 silver gene in the pairing with a brown tabby I may get 25% silver tabbies?
I did think what do they mean throw backs as surely genetics are the same principle regardless of breed you can only get what is genetically there? I guess sibbies have such mixed ancestry that almost every cat colour is in their somewhere.
ps I know uc davies was going to get my traditionals tested for cp with them so they can also tell you what colours your cat may be acrrying also? interesting


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Golden wise I can't seem to find any more infomation in it, so I'm not sure whether it means she carries one or two silver genes. All the sites SEEM to indicate that golden is part of the silver gene - but I'm not sure how that works. I shall continue researching.

Silver tabby wise it will depend on whether your boy carries 1 or 2 tabby genes. If he carries two then all the kittens will be tabby, and if your girl carries two silver genes then you will get all silver tabbies. If he carries one tabby gene then 50% tabby and all silver if your girl carries two silver genes, 3/4ers of your tabbies will be silver tabby if she only carries 1 silver gene.

EDIT: just found this

_Golden cats show a very similar coat pattern to those with silver, with dark tipping or shading. However, the undercoat is a rich, warm cream rather than white, and when combined with black tipping the 'golden' appearance results.

The different undercoat betrays a fundamental genetic difference from cats of the silver group: *Golds do not have the inhibitor gene*. Instead, they seem to have a gene or group of polygenes that simply increases the amount of yellow pigment in the agouti hairs. Without the effect of the inhibitor gene, however, the color tipping is generally heavier than in corresponding silver cats_

also

D-I-Oo = Shaded Tortoiseshell, Smoke Tortoiseshell (this is the gene type of your girl)

D - is the dense colour in her coat (black)
I - is the inhibitor gene that makes she a smoke - (if she has this she can't be golden) 
Oo - the tortie red gene

also

_The main colour inhibitor gene gives the cat a silver or golden undercoat. The degree of colour inhibition creating the differences between shaded and tipped silvers/goldens are believed due to the presence or absence of the Wide Band gene that determines the width of silver/gold undercoat band caused by inhibitor gene. Cats with both the Inhibitor gene and the Wide band gene appear as silver/golden shaded or tipped cats while those without it are silver/golden tabbies.

Dominant allele (I) produces that are fully colored only at the tip and have a white base. other genes influence the degree of tipping (the proprotion of each hair that is pigmented). Recessive allele (ii), combines with the agouti gene, to produce a golden undercoat. Poor (incomplete) expression of these or conflict with other genes results in tarnishing or excessively grey undercoat. Poor expression of non-agouti or over-expression of melanin inhibitor causes "smoke" cats to be excessively pale.

Another colour inhibitor that mimics silver has also been noted.

Dominant inhibitor + non-agouti = smoke series. 
Dominant inhibitor + agouti = silver tabby/shaded silver/tipped silver series (variable expression). 
Recessive inhibitor + non-agouti = golden smoke series. 
Recessive inhibitor + agouti = golden tabby/shaded golden/tipped golden series (variable expression). Note: wide-band on its own may cause this, rather than recessive inhibitor.

Dominant Golden is a "late colour change" gene and mode of inheritance not confirmed. Kittens born as silvers may turn golden at 2-3 years old. Additionally, golden-from-birth cats may produce silver kittens (considered impossible as golden is recessive to silver and should breed true) . Seen in some Persian lines.

I - Colour Inhibitor Locus

Genotype
Description
Phenotype

I/I
Homozygous - Inhibitor - Silver
Silver smoke/silver tabby/tipped (chinchilla)/shaded silver

I/i
Heterozygous - Inhibitor - carrier of non-inhibitor
Silver smoke/silver tabby/tipped (chinchilla)/shaded silver

i/i
Homozygous - Recessive inhibitor (non-silver, possibly golden) 
Non-silver (possibly Golden smoke/golden tabby/golden tipped/shaded golden)_

Mostly taken from messybeast.

It does seem that if your girl is golden she can't be silver and therefore SHOULDN'T produce silvers. If her dad was a golden he can't have passed on a silver gene so what was mum? Your girl can only be a silver if mum was a silver - other than that it would seem she is a golden.

Does that make sense?


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

spid said:


> Golden wise I can't seem to find any more infomation in it, so I'm not sure whether it means she carries one or two silver genes. All the sites SEEM to indicate that golden is part of the silver gene - but I'm not sure how that works. I shall continue researching.
> 
> Silver tabby wise it will depend on whether your boy carries 1 or 2 tabby genes. If he carries two then all the kittens will be tabby, and if your girl carries two silver genes then you will get all silver tabbies. If he carries one tabby gene then 50% tabby and all silver if your girl carries two silver genes, 3/4ers of your tabbies will be silver tabby if she only carries 1 silver gene.
> 
> ...


Thanks
sorry im confusing you im talking about to different cats the first one is a black shaded tortie to be mated to a black smoke so you gave me the possibles there without the inhibitor gene. So if you add that then all the kittens will be smoke/shaded of differing colurs as both parents have the silver gene am I right or does it again depend how many copies of the silver gene each cat has? well if the stud has come from a mating with a silver and brown tabby then he should only have one copy as brown wont carry it ? Same goes for mother as a blue/silver tortie mum and black dad.
I then went to talk about a different female who is a silver tabby but she has patches of what look like golden so I was told it was tarnishing but I was wondering if she could carry golden as is recessive, I read conflict with other genes can cause incomplete penetrance of silver gene from what you posted. I was wondering if I could tell externally if see if heterozygous or homozygous for the silver inhibitor gene? Her mum is a black smoke so she has got it from her but if I put this girl to a brown tabby whos grandfather was a golden would he carry golden also and then if he did and he was put to my silver girl whos dad is golden would I possibly get a golden kitten or do you need to have an actual golden cat? The golden gene is strange and I dont get it really?
Get what you are saying about the rest but when you were explaing about percentages of silver tabbies, the case I was referring to was my silvertabby girl being put to a brown tabby then if she had two copies I would get all silver cats but if she had one copy then I would get 1/4 silver tabbies the rest browns? is that right as there is only 1 silver gene present out of a possible four genes, but then doesn't only one gene from each cat get passed on so is it pot look which gene from each cat comes together? Im confusing myself now.lol
for example my silver tabby girl was mated to a brown tabby she had two kittens a silver tabby and a black smoke so she passed on her silver genes both times, or is she possibly a cat that has two silver genes as she produced two silver cats?
Sorry bet you will wish you had not answered now.
Clare


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

To be honest, without genetic testing ( and I don't know if they test for the inhibitor gene) it is always going to guesswork as to who carries what as mother nature doesn't listen to statistics. I could put my tabby girl (one tabby gene) with a tabby boy (one tabby gene) and still end up with 6 solids in a litter and no tabbies. It's a genetic lottery. 

For your first mating - black smoke tortie and black shaded boy - from parentage it sounds like they will both only carry one silver gene (as like tabby silver can't be 'carried' you either have it or you don't) - so 75% will be silver (tabby only) /shaded/smoke (solids)

For your second mating - I find the golden gene very confusing - according to what I read you can't be siver and carry gold or visa versa and I don't know what tarnishing is all about. So I am going have to pass on that. Again without testing it is almost impossible to know whether she carries one or two silver genes - or you test mate lots and come to a conclusion.


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Thanks spid, will have to look into it, I think tarnishing is what you get when the inhibitor gene has not fully penetrated so a poor silver with patches on the hair that are not silver but brown or golden brown in her case


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Yes, tarnishing is brown coloration in a silver cat. It is due to the incomplete action of the inhibitor gene and is not really desirable in silver cats.
There is no test for the inhibitor gene available yet. Research has been done so a test will not be far away I would think, a few years maybe.

Silver mated to brown gives you 50% silver & 50% brown if the silver cat is heterozygous. 100% silver if the silver cat is homozygous.

However with the small numbers in a litter 100% smoke or silver will not definitely mean she is homozygous, but if you do get a brown it means she is definitely heterozygous.


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

spid I was looking on a friends site who is big on genetics and she has a page dedicated to colour genetics and apparently a homogzygous silver would be II a silver carrying golden would be Ii, ii is a golden I think so it seems a silver can carry golden so her tarnishing is very golden so I guess she may be a carrier of it as her dad is a golden shaded and mother a black smoke, I assume she will have inherited one gene from each so seen as golden is recessive she has to be carrying the golden. What I dont get is how she is a silver tabby if both parents are non tabby as I am now under the impression that without the tabby gene you dont get them and seen as it is dominant surely one of the parents must be. Is it possible to get a black smoke that is genetically tabby so a very dark silver tabby that would look like a smoke as I know her mum has tabby markings? I have seen golden cats produce silver and vice versa when put to another cat with the golden gene so it is recessive to silver but part of the same gene I think it just works in a different way. It is a very confusing colour. I have also seen cats that have been half silver and half gold which is very strange and striking.
Just thought I would pass that on incase you ever get asked again


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

it isn't possible to get a tabby from two solids. Smoke is what silver is on a solid. I don't know how you get a silver tabby from two non tabbies - other than the sire getting muddled. it's all a bit confusing really.


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

I am sure it is the right sire she puts the cats in with the male of choice so they dont mix otherwise. She was keeping this girl herself for show breeding so I dont think she would have got it wrong. Maybe she is a very, very dark silver tabby that looks smoke??? who knows unless my girl is a silver shaded but she has tabby markings??? well if I put her to a tabby cat then I should get mainly tabbys shouldnt I unless they are both heterozygous tabbies? Then may get the odd solid colour. I think I need to gene test her and see, can they tell from a gene test if the tabby gene is present?
Clare


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

oh this all seems so confusing!! i understand dominant and recessive but not the bases or dilutes!!

I have a chocolate female, her mother was chocolate and her father was lilac. From what I have read as for lilac to be shown it has to be a double recessive which would mean my girl carries lilac, is this right?

Also how does it work with colourpoints and selfs, which is dominant?


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Yes your girl would carry dilute (or lilac) from her sire. You do need 2 recessive genes for that recessive to be expressed.

Colour points are caused by a double dose of the cs solourpoint gene which is recessive to the dominant C self gene. So if you mate 2 colour points together you will only get colourpoints. A self carrying colour point to a colour point, 50/50. Two selfs carrying colour point 75/25 (self/colourpoint)

The base colour only comes into play if you have a red/cream or apricot cat.


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

oh ok then, thats starting to make sense thank you. so if i put her to a lilac colourpoint i would get mostly lilac selfs as the lilac colourpoint must be double recessive to express the lilac, and the self would be dominant over the colourpoint?


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

flosskins said:


> oh this all seems so confusing!! i understand dominant and recessive but not the bases or dilutes!!
> 
> I have a chocolate female, her mother was chocolate and her father was lilac. From what I have read as for lilac to be shown it has to be a double recessive which would mean my girl carries lilac, is this right?
> 
> Also how does it work with colourpoints and selfs, which is dominant?


I only understand the 2 genes bit!!  I am trying though.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

flosskins said:


> oh ok then, thats starting to make sense thank you. so if i put her to a lilac colourpoint i would get mostly lilac selfs as the lilac colourpoint must be double recessive to express the lilac, and the self would be dominant over the colourpoint?


Unless she carries colourpoint, then you would get all selfs with a 50% chance of the kitten being lilac. If your girl carries colour point, then you would have a 25% chance of a lilac colour point (if I remembered how to work out probability correctly  )

% probabilities are only a guide though, Mother Nature does what she likes


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

thank you very much. now a year old so need to find a stud cat and wait for her to come into call! would like some lilac kittens as think they're beautiful!

I have heard that as chocolate is a dilute of black (not sure about this bit) that if I were to put her to a blue then i would most likely get black kittens?


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Its easier to think as chocolate being a different colour to black, rather than a dilute. Technically I think there is only one colour and that is black, but in a chocolate cat something happens to the colour distribution within the hair and it comes out chocolate, but thats way too confusing.

Chocolate is a non dilute colour in its own right but recessive to black. So a black (or its dilute blue) cat can carry chocolate, but a chocolate could not carry Black. If you mated your choccie girl to a blue (blue is the dilute of black, so like the lilac carries 2 dilute genes), who didn't carry chocolate you would have a mixture of black and blue kittens - all of whom would carry chocolate. If the blue also carries chocolate you can add chocolate and lilac into the mix.


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

thank you very much!! all starting to make sense...for now!


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

You're welcome. Genetics is fascinating - so much to take in and learn though :scared:. But well worth the trouble if you want to breed a specific colour/pattern cat.


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

i love genetics, always was interested at school and bred horses so fascinating, this is my first foray into cat breeding so lots to learn. good to know chocolate is its own colour, didn't really want to end up with black from everything as its such a dominant colour!! fingers crossed for the lilacs then.


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## Sharon Williamson (May 25, 2019)

Saikou said:


> Do you know what base the Dad is? She is probably blue based but thats not definite. Is she quite a cool cream ? Chocolate based creams/reds are supposed to be brighter.
> 
> As the above then definitely cream boys, blue tortie (blue/cream) girls - maybe lilac tortie girls - all in self and colourpoint.


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## Sharon Williamson (May 25, 2019)

lizward said:


> All boys cream
> 
> All girls tortie (75% blue 25% lilac assuming the girl is blue based and that both carry chocolate which wasn't clear from what you said)
> 
> ...


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

@Sharon Williamson, this thread is 9 years old and the members you've quoted are no longer active. Perhaps you could start your own thread?


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Sharon Williamson said:


> Hi new to this please can you tell me if I mate a red tabby female to a blue stud what colour litter should I expectrl?


Hi Sharon
I think you need to start a new thread. This one is several years old and neither saikou or Liz post here anymore. We do have other members with a good knowledge of colour genetics though


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Rufus15 said:


> @Sharon Williamson, this thread is 9 years old and the members you've quoted are no longer active. Perhaps you could start your own thread?


Ha ha - cross posted


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## Sharon Williamson (May 25, 2019)

lymorelynn said:


> Hi Sharon
> I think you need to start a new thread. This one is several years old and neither saikou or Liz post here anymore. We do have other members with a good knowledge of colour genetics though


OK thank you. I have just joined today as you can probably tell x


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## Sharon Williamson (May 25, 2019)

Rufus15 said:


> @Sharon Williamson, this thread is 9 years old and the members you've quoted are no longer active. Perhaps you could start your own thread?


Thank you I will try to do that now thank you x


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Sharon Williamson said:


> HI please could you tell me if I mate a red tabby queen to a blue stud what colour litter to expect? Mum of Queen was cream and dad red. Mum of blue stud was blue dad cream.


It's a lengthy permutation of possible colours/patterns to predict without knowing a number of factors -

- when you say tabby queen, do you mean classic, spotted or ticked tabby?

- has she been DNA tested to show that she IS an agouti cat? More than half of red based "tabby" BSH are shown to be self (non tabby) on DNA testing. So if she is indeed self and not tabby, none of her kittens can be tabby

- does either, or more to the point both, parent carry chocolate? If only one or neither parent carry chocolate, chocolate/lilac series kittens are not possible.

- what pattern is the blue stud masking? A self will mask one of three patterns - ticked, spotted or classic. Depending upon your girl's pattern, the pattern the stud masks will have an effect. For example, if your girl is classic tabby (bottom of the 'ladder' in terms of recessives) and the stud not masking classic, then classic tabby kittens are not possible.

Clearly she carries dilute so to a dilute stud, dilute kittens are possible and basically speaking they - and all kittens whether self or agouti - will be red series males and tortie females.


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## Sharon Williamson (May 25, 2019)

gskinner123 said:


> It's a lengthy permutation of possible colours/patterns to predict without knowing a number of factors -
> 
> - when you say tabby queen, do you mean classic, spotted or ticked tabby?
> 
> ...


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## Sharon Williamson (May 25, 2019)

Kit


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

If you are particularly keen on breeding tabbies (and I guess you have to be, buying a tabby kitten!) I would personally consider it very worthwhile to DNA test her for agouti to save any possible disappointment.

Red kittens with a classic or spotted pattern can be, and usually are, identical whether agouti or not; in fact many red self BSH have a clearer/heavier pattern than an actual tabby kitten. 

If she did turn out to be non agouti, mated to a self she is never going to produce you tabby kittens. The majority of breeders working with red and agouti now DNA test, bearing in mind the GCCF requirements for compulsory DNA agouti status test for red/cream series cats. I don't know which body you register with of course nor am I aware if TICA have the same requirements.


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## Sharon Williamson (May 25, 2019)

Thank you.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

You have no idea that she is a tabby. Her mum is a self, many registered red "tabbies" (her sire) are selfs and so it is fifty fifty that this kitten is not genetically a tabby. And I see they both carry colourpoint so the sire does not have a traditional, proper tabby pedigree making it even more likely that he is a self.

Please don't be offended if I tell you that however smitten you are with her, her pedigree is not really suitable for breeding


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Sharon Williamson said:


> Thank you. I think once she is old enough DNA testing will be done and possibly a tester litter once she is 2ish. I will be getting her at 13 weeks. Will my vets be able to do the testing? I have bred bengal previously and then I was offered a British Blue and wow I was smitten. I currently have British Blues only but this red girl will be my first tabby British Shorthair so wanted to be armed with as much information about genes as possible.


DNA testing can be done from a very early age, as soon as you can take a cheek swab at least an hour after the kitten last fed. Langford are the people. The only issue is that if you want it to get a red or cream cat with a tabby parent registered as self, the kitten has to be old enough that your vet will chip it, and the vet has to take the swab, stamp the form and post it.

Langford are the people most UK breeders use, and if you belong to a club that has registered with them there is a substantial discount of 20% available.

https://www.langfordvets.co.uk/media/1363/breed-club-list-071118.pdf


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

gskinner123 said:


> bearing in mind the GCCF requirements for compulsory DNA agouti status test for red/cream series cats.


Out of interest, is this only in BSH? I've not heard it for MCO


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Rufus15 said:


> Out of interest, is this only in BSH? I've not heard it for MCO


I am not sure of the registration policies for other breeds but within BSH we have a few stipulations regarding red/cream cats from tabby breeding and the RP is also restrictive when point is present.

We had (a diminishing problem now due to the testing requirements) a situation where the majority of cats registered as red agouti were actually selfs and sometimes vice versa.

If you wanted to breed brown tabbies, tortie tabbies for example and unknowingly found yourself with a red self parent, one might wonder why you were getting only black torties and no brown tortie tabbies etc.

The other way around, a kitten registered as a red self when it is genetically agouti will cause even more of a problem bearing in mind we do not recognise tabby & whites in BSH. Take your red 'self' girl to a bi-colour stud because you want to breed bicolours and you wouldn't be too happy to get a litter of tabby & whites that are unregisterable. Add point into the mix and you have even more of a problem lol


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## Sharon Williamson (May 25, 2019)

gskinner123 said:


> You have no idea that she is a tabby. Her mum is a self, many registered red "tabbies" (her sire) are selfs and so it is fifty fifty that this kitten is not genetically a tabby. And I see they both carry colourpoint so the sire does not have a traditional, proper tabby pedigree making it even more likely that he is a self.
> 
> Please don't be offended if I tell you that however smitten you are with her, her pedigree is not really suitable for breeding


I am not offended at all do not worry. Thank you for your information. I may just keep her aseperate a pet. The mum belongs to a dear friend of mine whom I helped purchase. I called her tabby because that is what she appears to be I did not know she could actually be a self with such strong markings. Her mum's are very faint but I believe she would be classed as a cream self? I was hoping for a cream girl from her but it was not to be. The other kitten is pure white not colourpoint or is he colourpoint but his markings hidden?Is there pure white BSH I believe there is but are these registered as somethibg else? Confusing but I am eager to learn.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Hi Sharon, yes, there is white self BSH but for the kitten in the litter to be white, at least one of the parents would have to be white as it cannot be carried recessively. He can therefore only be a colourpointed: think Siamese pattern on a BSH. They are born "white" and gradually develop their points colour. 

When my visitors have been and gone I will post you a link to the BSH Breeding Policy (not the registration policy which is something else entirely) which is a very helpful and interesting read ..or you can find the link to it from the British Shorthair BAC web page.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

gskinner123 said:


> I am not sure of the registration policies for other breeds but within BSH we have a few stipulations regarding red/cream cats from tabby breeding and the RP is also restrictive when point is present.
> 
> We had (a diminishing problem now due to the testing requirements) a situation where the majority of cats registered as red agouti were actually selfs and sometimes vice versa.
> 
> ...


You have quite strict colour restrictions don't you?

Sorry @Sharon Williamson, going off on a tangent here


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Rufus15 said:


> You have quite strict colour restrictions don't you?
> 
> Sorry @Sharon Williamson, going off on a tangent here


Yes and no. Mostly, the policy is very flexible to allow progression of offspring for breeding/showing or in other words there is little you can do that leads you into a 'no progression' situation.

It has to be borne in mind that each colour has its own SOP; we have a large range of colours and patterns and three different eye colours. Full CS registration is given to offspring from an 'ideal mating' (based upon the parents' colour/pattern). As an example, one may mate a silver tabby (green eyes in BSH) to a blue self and the kittens will be on a showable CSSR register - it is not an ideal mating as none of the offspring are likely to have the correct eye colour and so CSSR registration is given to inform that it was a less than ideal mating and one would (hopefully!) want to then undertake more suitable matings to produce kittens that most closely meet their SOP.

It's a very forgiving SOP actually but if breeders don't at least try to understand it, at least just the parts that relate to them, then they are likely to end up wondering why kittens are on the reference register or, just occasionally, XSH.


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## Sharon Williamson (May 25, 2019)

No worries. It is all very interesting 


gskinner123 said:


> Hi Sharon, yes, there is white self BSH but for the kitten in the litter to be white, at least one of the parents would have to be white as it cannot be carried recessively. He can therefore only be a colourpointed: think Siamese pattern on a BSH. They are born "white" and gradually develop their points colour.
> 
> When my visitors have been and gone I will post you a link to the BSH Breeding Policy (not the registration policy which is something else entirely) which is a very helpful and interesting read ..or you can find the link to it from the British Shorthair BAC web page.


Wonderful. Thank you very much. I had no idea they were born white I do like the colour points a breeder near me has them but I have only seen them from 4-5 weeks onwards. I will tell my friend and ask for weekly photos of him also to see the change. I think I will now invest time in researching colours. If there is any books/documents you can recommend 


Rufus15 said:


> You have quite strict colour restrictions don't you?
> 
> Sorry @Sharon Williamson, going off on a tangent here


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Sharon Williamson said:


> No worries. It is all very interesting
> 
> Wonderful. Thank you very much. I had no idea they were born white I do like the colour points a breeder near me has them but I have only seen them from 4-5 weeks onwards. I will tell my friend and ask for weekly photos of him also to see the change. I think I will now invest time in researching colours. If there is any books/documents you can recommend


Here is a link to the BSH BAC page (Breed Advisory Committee). Follow the link on the home page to the Breeding Policy (not the registration policy)..

http://www.britishshorthairgc.com/index.html

It is split into sections on colours/patterns. It isn't a short read! But it is beautifully written, very interesting, better than any book you will find and written such that you don't need to be a geneticist to understand it!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Rufus15 said:


> Out of interest, is this only in BSH? I've not heard it for MCO


No, it's for OSH as well:

" All Red, Cream or Apricot Orientals with one or more Tabby Point, Oriental Tabby or Oriental Shaded parent(s) must be registered as Red, Cream or Apricot Oriental Tabbies or Shadeds until proved otherwise. They may not be registered as Oriental Selfs or Oriental Smokes until test matings or genetic testing have proved them to be free of the agouti gene. No cat may be registered as a Tabby or Shaded unless it has an agouti parent."

And SIA:

NOTE: All Red Point, Cream Point or Apricot Point Siamese with one or more Tabby Point or Oriental Tabby parents must be registered as Red, Cream or Apricot Tabby Points until proved otherwise.
In the case of cats imported onto the GCCF register, no cat with a Tabby Point or Oriental Tabby within five generations may be registered as a Red, Cream or Apricot Point unless either a. the cat has been proved by genetic testing to be non-agouti, or b. there is a non-red, non-agouti cat breaking the line descending from the Tabby Point/Oriental Tabby, or c. a Red, Cream or Apricot Point in the line descended from t

And RAG, with knobs on:

NOTE : RED SERIES All Red and Cream point Ragdolls with one or more Tabby parent(s) must be registered as Red or Cream Tabby Point until proven otherwise. Cats may not be registered as Red or Cream Point until test matings have proven them to be free of the agouti gene or they have been DNA tested and proven to be non-agouti (proof to be supplied with the registration document). Any cat DNA tested must be micro-chipped. Note : In the case of cats imported onto the GCCF register, no cat with a Tabby Point or Tortie Tabby Point within three generations may be registered as a Red or Cream Point unless either: a) The cat has been proved by test matings to be non-agouti, or
b) There is a non-red, non-agouti cat breaking the line descending from the Tabby Point/Tortie Tabby Point, or
c) A Red or Cream Point cat in the line descended from the Tabby Point/Tortie tabby Point has been proved by test matings to be non-agouti. No cat may be registered as a Red or Cream Tabby Point unless it has an agouti parent.

NOTE: CHOCOLATE/LILAC SERIES Cats to be registered as either chocolate or lilac. Proof must be supplied with registration that they are the
correct colour. This is required via a DNA test unless both parents have tested and been registered as chocolate or lilac. All DNA tested cats must be micro-chipped.

PER as well though oddly not EXO, unless I missed it.

I'm sure there are other similar registration policies, these are just the ones I'm aware of.


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## Sharon Williamson (May 25, 2019)

gskinner123 said:


> Here is a link to the BSH BAC page (Breed Advisory Committee). Follow the link on the home page to the Breeding Policy (not the registration policy)..
> 
> http://www.britishshorthairgc.com/index.html
> 
> It is split into sections on colours/patterns. It isn't a short read! But it is beautifully written, very interesting, better than any book you will find and written such that you don't need to be a geneticist to understand it!


Thank you so much very kind of you x


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## Sanzii (Jun 11, 2020)

Saikou said:


> It would depend what base colour your cream girl is and what she carries - what are her parents ? All boys from the mating will be creams though, self and colour point. All girls will be tortie in definitely blue, possibly lilac. Do you have caramel in BSH?


Hello you seem quite experienced.. I have mated my BSH blue female with a Lilac stud what colour kittens would I be expecting?


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Sanzii said:


> Hello you seem quite experienced.. I have mated my BSH blue female with a Lilac stud what colour kittens would I be expecting?


Hi Sanzil, the poster you are quoting hasn't been seen for 10 years. Hopefully one of our other breeders will be along to advise, andif you look through previous replies you will see siome helpful links to information.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Sanzii said:


> Hello you seem quite experienced.. I have mated my BSH blue female with a Lilac stud what colour kittens would I be expecting?


To be able to answer that fully one needs to know the genetics of the two parents. What are they carrying?

At the most basic level, if the queen carries nothing you will get a litter of blue kittens, who carry chocolate.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Sanzii said:


> Hello you seem quite experienced.. I have mated my BSH blue female with a Lilac stud what colour kittens would I be expecting?


The owner of the stud should be able to advise.


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