# GPS or Wireless fences



## NickC (Sep 25, 2010)

We have recently moved house and now live in a very rural location with a largish plot/woods etc, and do not want/would find it very hard to fence it physically. However we do need to stop the wandering-off that the energetic youngster has learned to do.
My research shows talk of a GPS driven system on the market where the boundaries are marked in the system virtually (no dug-in wire), then the GPS collar on the dog senses the boundaries pre-set, and then inhibits the dog from crossing them.
BUT...I can't find this system for sale ...and am wondering if anyone on the forum has bought/experienced this - and can guide me.
There is a wireless system which relies on a central FM transmitter, and the dog carries a receiver - but the area is a bit small at only 25m radius...a larger area might work tho.... say a 50m radius.

Any views/clues, please?
Thanks
NickC


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Bear in mind that the electonic fences you describe have pitfalls:

They don't stop other dogs from coming in and interfering/fighting with yours...

If your dog chases something and "powers through" the stim of the collar while in chase mode, he'll be unwilling to come back through the stim once he's finished chasing and therefore be stuck outside your boundary...

There are probably others.

Why isn't it possible to fence off a smaller area for the dog to run in when you can't supervise him?


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I would like to add that the other majort pitfall of using a painful, highly aversive electric shock collar on a dog is aggression!

If the dog crosses the boundary it will be focused on something it is trying to get to - possibly another dog, passer-by etc. It gets a painful shock, and associates the shock with the thing it was focused on. Dog thus become highly fearful of that stimulus believing it to be the cause of the pain, and this can become a serious problem of fear aggression.

I am firmly against shock collars and invisible fences - there is a reason that ales has banned them, and that virtually EVERY animal weflare group / pro training / behaviour group / KC etc wants them banned across the UK.

They do not necessarily succeed at keeping your dog in.
They do not keep anyone or anything out - inc other dogs (possibly aggressive ro on heat), people - inc dog thieves or the morons who would abuse a dog unattended.... etc.
They cause pain and fear; and have a slight risk of serious injury (inc electrical burns and skin necrosis).
They can lead to serious behaviour problems inc aggression and / or phobias.

Please consider another option - a dog run of some sorts, or simply sectioning off a small piece of garden say nearest to the house, would be a far safer more humane alternative.


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## pamela Renfrew (Jun 9, 2010)

Morning..... I have to agree with the others on this...... I did try this once for my GSD..... I followed all the instructions of how to dig in the wire to hide it all round the perimeter of the garden..... then put up the little white flags a meter in from the edge... which meant when he went near the wire he would get a noise of warning first, which should have made him think twice and turn around....Yeah, well, Ninyo being Ninyo always just did what he wanted to anyway..... so one day I watched him chase one of the cats..... straight through the perimeter...... yelping on the way through...... which only meant there was no way he was coming back into the garden...... Absolutely No Way..... What a complete waste of money........ I think the wire is still dug in round the garden to this day !!!!! On the other hand, in the winter, we get sheep put into the field next to the house...... Ninyo was a little parcial to the taste of sheep and managed to kill and demolish two on two different occasions....... oooops... bad dog !!! My friend came over one day and we put an electric collar on him and walked straight into the field full of sheep.... Ninyo thought all his xmas's had came at once... off he went like a shot, not looking back once... adrenalin pumping..... I called him....... nothing, I called him again.....nothing, I pressed the button...... wow... he shot in the air and landed looking at the ground to see what he had stood on !! Adrenalin still pumping, he took off after the sheep again.... I called him.... nothing.... I called him a second time.... nothing.... I pressed the button.... zap.... he came back and clung to my side.... from that day on he never left my side when there were sheep around...... Sometimes, it is better to be cruel to be kind than taking a risk of loosing your dog to a farmers gun !! Pamx


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

pamela Renfrew said:


> Morning..... I have to agree with the others on this...... I did try this once for my GSD..... I followed all the instructions of how to dig in the wire to hide it all round the perimeter of the garden..... then put up the little white flags a meter in from the edge... which meant when he went near the wire he would get a noise of warning first, which should have made him think twice and turn around....Yeah, well, Ninyo being Ninyo always just did what he wanted to anyway..... so one day I watched him chase one of the cats..... straight through the perimeter...... yelping on the way through...... which only meant there was no way he was coming back into the garden...... Absolutely No Way..... What a complete waste of money........ I think the wire is still dug in round the garden to this day !!!!! On the other hand, in the winter, we get sheep put into the field next to the house...... Ninyo was a little parcial to the taste of sheep and managed to kill and demolish two on two different occasions....... oooops... bad dog !!! My friend came over one day and we put an electric collar on him and walked straight into the field full of sheep.... Ninyo thought all his xmas's had came at once... off he went like a shot, not looking back once... adrenalin pumping..... I called him....... nothing, I called him again.....nothing, I pressed the button...... wow... he shot in the air and landed looking at the ground to see what he had stood on !! Adrenalin still pumping, he took off after the sheep again.... I called him.... nothing.... I called him a second time.... nothing.... I pressed the button.... zap.... he came back and clung to my side.... from that day on he never left my side when there were sheep around...... Sometimes, it is better to be cruel to be kind than taking a risk of loosing your dog to a farmers gun !! Pamx


Or maybe it's even better to either:

Keep your dog away from livestock, or keep them onlead when they're around livestock or

Learn the CORRECT way to use a remote collar, with the help of an expert. Even a pro-ecollar person would not use the collar in the way you describe. They certainly wouldn't just stick an ecollar on and take the dog into a field full of sheep.


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

The use of electronic or shock collars has already been banned in Wales and with good reason, it is tantamount to using torture to teach an animal something that it most likely will not understand.

In my opinion, short of a total UK ban, these devices should only be sold to accredited trainers who know exactly what they are doing, the potential for the dog misinterpreting the association of the shock (as Collette says above) is far too great. If you are going to buy such a device then you have no right to put it on your dog until you have at least tried it out on yourself, if you are brave enough.

The question has to be why does the dog have unsupervised access to roam free and why is he 'wandering off'? No dog should be allowed out into open countryside without proper supervision, for their own safety as well as that of others. If he is out there with supervision, but just wanders off anyway, that is a different matter and is simply a case of decent training.

I think allowing your dog access to such an area in the first place and then expecting him not to explore it is wholly irresponsible, but then looking to a quick fix shock system to control him is just asking for trouble.


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## doglover1127 (Jan 8, 2009)

I have used dog fences and ecollars for years with great success. Why have I been successful? I followed the instructions to the letter and never abused or over-used the product. With a little common sense, these products can be a very helpful training tool. I do use a wireless fence for my dog.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

doglover1127 said:


> I have used dog fences and ecollars for years with great success. Why have I been successful? I followed the instructions to the letter and never abused or over-used the product. With a little common sense, these products can be a very helpful training tool. I do use a wireless fence for my dog.


how cruel! lets hope the rest of the UK follows Wales and bans them...ecollars are totally inhumane however theyre used!


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Administering electric shocks to your dog is cruel and inhumane. Build a fence, man.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

doglover1127 said:


> I have used dog fences and ecollars for years with great success. Why have I been successful? I followed the instructions to the letter and never abused or over-used the product. With a little common sense, these products can be a very helpful training tool. I do use a wireless fence for my dog.


its not like ur advertising ur own product, is it


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

doglover1127 said:


> I have used dog fences and ecollars for years with great success. Why have I been successful? I followed the instructions to the letter and never abused or over-used the product. With a little common sense, these products can be a very helpful training tool. I do use a wireless fence for my dog.


And your post also supplies TWO links to a site that sells them, how very helpful of you. Would that be your site by any chance?

I can understand how these things are considered acceptable in America, where the common sense you refer to is often conspicuous by its absence. The merest ounce of sense, common or otherwise, should tell you that these things are not a training tool at all, they are a way of punishing your dog for doing something you don't want them to do. That's what it come down to, a punishment, and if that is how you want to go then so be it, but do not try to dress it up as something its not.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> And your post also supplies TWO links to a site that sells them, how very helpful of you. Would that be your site by any chance?
> 
> I can understand how these things are considered acceptable in America, where the common sense you refer to is often conspicuous by its absence. The merest ounce of sense, common or otherwise, should tell you that these things are not a training tool at all, they are a way of punishing your dog for doing something you don't want them to do. That's what it come down to, a punishment, and if that is how you want to go then so be it, but do not try to dress it up as something its not.


Oh, well said! I have nothing left to say now.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I understand the fences can work very well but have no experience of them. The collars also work very well if used correctly on the right dog for the right reason. I am very much against banning something because it has been used wrongly. Rather like banning pit bulls because a handful of people have used them in the wrong way.
I think the excessive use of a collar in the way described by the owner of a sheep chaser is acceptable in that instance. In fact the collar I have had detailed instructions on how to use it with a proviso that in the case of a livestock worrier you just blasted them. If it is the dogs life or a nasty shock it is no contest in my eyes.

Maybe the collars should only be used by licensed users but they should not be banned. I can quite see they could be terribly abused though.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Blitz said:


> I understand the fences can work very well but have no experience of them. The collars also work very well if used correctly on the right dog for the right reason. I am very much against banning something because it has been used wrongly. Rather like banning pit bulls because a handful of people have used them in the wrong way.
> I think the excessive use of a collar in the way described by the owner of a sheep chaser is acceptable in that instance. In fact the collar I have had detailed instructions on how to use it with a proviso that in the case of a livestock worrier you just blasted them. If it is the dogs life or a nasty shock it is no contest in my eyes.
> 
> Maybe the collars should only be used by licensed users but they should not be banned. I can quite see they could be terribly abused though.


i really dont see how you can compare an inanimate object which is designed to cause an animal pain/discomfort to a dog breed:confused1:

and anyone who uses an ecollar 'excessively' on any dog for whatever reason should question whether they should even be owning a dog imo, dogs have been known to power through the stim to get to livestock so the dog could lose its life in any case...and its not as though there isnt another option if you dont trust recall near livestock..just dont let the dog off lead in the 1st place, i dont trust my dogs off lead but i'll never frighten any of mine by giving them a 'nasty shock'..but then i dont have a problem with keeping mine safely on lead.


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I understand the fences can work very well but have no experience of them. The collars also work very well if used correctly on the right dog for the right reason. I am very much against banning something because it has been used wrongly. Rather like banning pit bulls because a handful of people have used them in the wrong way.
> I think the excessive use of a collar in the way described by the owner of a sheep chaser is acceptable in that instance. In fact the collar I have had detailed instructions on how to use it with a proviso that in the case of a livestock worrier you just blasted them. If it is the dogs life or a nasty shock it is no contest in my eyes.
> 
> Maybe the collars should only be used by licensed users but they should not be banned. I can quite see they could be terribly abused though.


Things don't get banned for no reason they get banned because they have the potential to cause serious harm or injury. By your reasoning we should lift the ban on hand guns in the UK, just because they have been misused by a small minority of people that doesn't make them dangerous for every one else does it? I am sorry but what a ridiculous argument, do you honestly believe that it is acceptable to use a device which could potentially be used to torture an animal just so long as you read the instructions first?

You really should stop blindly accepting everything manufacturers say about their products as being the absolute truth, because it rarely is.

No contest between the dogs life and a nasty shock? No there is no contest, nor does there ever need to be, just keep your dog away from the bloody sheep! For gods sake, take a gsd that has already killed two sheep and put it in a field full of them and what would you expect it to do? Would it not just be simpler to not take the dog into a field full of sheep on the first place?

If you don't want a child to eat sweets then you don't buy the sweets. What is being suggested here is that in order to stop the child eating the sweets we have to put them right in front of him and then smack him every time he reaches out for one. I am sure if you were to suggest such a plan then you would get a very strong reaction, so why is it different to use the same strategy for a dog?


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> No contest between the dogs life and a nasty shock? No there is no contest, nor does there ever need to be, just keep your dog away from the bloody sheep! For gods sake, take a gsd that has already killed two sheep and put it in a field full of them and what would you expect it to do? Would it not just be simpler to not take the dog into a field full of sheep on the first place?


Common sense. I like it.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> Things don't get banned for no reason they get banned because they have the potential to cause serious harm or injury. By your reasoning we should lift the ban on hand guns in the UK, just because they have been misused by a small minority of people that doesn't make them dangerous for every one else does it? I am sorry but what a ridiculous argument, do you honestly believe that it is acceptable to use a device which could potentially be used to torture an animal just so long as you read the instructions first?
> 
> You really should stop blindly accepting everything manufacturers say about their products as being the absolute truth, because it rarely is.
> 
> ...


Top post. Absolutely agree. Would have repped you but apparently I have to spread some around first


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## pamela Renfrew (Jun 9, 2010)

I live in the middle of the countryside, which is sheer bliss.... However, as I explained before, the sheep are put out to graze for a couple of months in the winter.... I am not prepared to keep my dogs indoors for months on end just because the stinky sheep are at the house.... literally at the house... they escape from the fields very often... obviously you have never experienced this... and end up in my garden.... That was the reason my gsd got a hold of one in the first place.... it was in his land... so not really my dogs fault......and I am sorry to say that a quick zap or two as the case was on a big gsd was all it took to train him..... so I still agree that there is a place for these collars if used correctly....At the end of the day.... dogs are pack animals and many many years ago their instinct was to kill prey for survival......... Pam


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

pamela Renfrew said:


> I live in the middle of the countryside, which is sheer bliss.... However, as I explained before, the sheep are put out to graze for a couple of months in the winter.... I am not prepared to keep my dogs indoors for months on end just because the stinky sheep are at the house.... literally at the house... they escape from the fields very often... obviously you have never experienced this... and end up in my garden.... That was the reason my gsd got a hold of one in the first place.... it was in his land... so not really my dogs fault......and I am sorry to say that a quick zap or two as the case was on a big gsd was all it took to train him..... so I still agree that there is a place for these collars if used correctly....At the end of the day.... dogs are pack animals and many many years ago their instinct was to kill prey for survival......... Pam


Just to put you straight on a few things if I may, your dog has evolved as a scavenger more than a predator, your breed of dog is a livestock guarding dog and originally bred to protect things such as sheep not chase them like a collie does (the herding trials for GSDs are very different to the one man and his dog types).

You state that your dog will do what he wants anyway regardless which may give the idea that he is a hard dog to train or the right motivation hasn't been found so really the shock collar tactics were brought in for a quick fix.
I have a collie, working blood the lot and he won't chase sheep or horses or runners or cyclists or cats or anything I don't want him to. If I say he can he will chase rabbits but if I say he can't then he will watch them get on with their live's. This took quite a lot of time and quite a lot of patience and I am still fine tuning it almost everyday. The reason why I have discouraged the chasing of things other than when I say is for the safety of the dog rather than the "prey". His safety and wellbeing is my biggest priority as an owner so if he is allowed to chase things, given the opportunity to chase things then he has the potential to put himself into grave danger on roads, hillsides etc. If he had managed to bring something down once then it would mean an instant implememtation of restricting his opportunity to carryout that behaviour again - even if it meant he had to be kept indoors, only allowed access to the outside under supervision on leash and only allowed off lead in a safe environment. If it happened again then i would be seriously considering the consequences not only to the dog that has been allowed to put itslelf and another animal in danger (the other animal died again) but it having an impact on someone else's livelyhood then I would be taking serious measures to ensure I do not allow that dog the opportunity to perform the behaviour again. I would be constantly reminding myself to not allow the dog the opportunity through confinement.
To then present him with "all of his Xmas' at once" and allow him to chase is just ridiculous. What if I couldn't get him back? What if the collar I was using didn't work? What if the effects of the collar didn't work? There would be a huge mess and a lot unnecessary pain and possible fatalities.
Now I have lived in the country and I have helped on sheep farms on the odd occasion and I have seen pictures of farmer's past dogs who when you ask what happened to hem they say "He faced a ram and it made a right mess of the dog". What would I do if my dog faced a ram it couldn't shift and the ram decided to play the game his way instead? The vets wouldn't be able to fix it.

To go back to your point of "dogs are pack animals" then that would mean that a pack needs a leader, an alpha, yet the sheep wandered onto "his" land so it wasn't "his" fault. If you were the leader of "his pack" then he wouldn't chase, would "do his own thing anyway" and would be under control so that all other animals in the world are safe from potential harm from your dog. If you are the leader of the pack then one of your pack members has broken rank big time meaning you were not in control of the dog meaning it is your fault backed up by the fact that you state you have an animlal that as an "instinct to kill prey animals for survival" which have you failed to control or take measures to restrict this from happening not once but twice.

Get the dog inside for it's own safety if nothing else.


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## keirk (Aug 9, 2010)

pamela Renfrew said:


> Sometimes, it is better to be cruel to be kind than taking a risk of loosing your dog to a farmers gun !! Pamx


I feel sorry for your dogs.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

pamela Renfrew said:


> and I am sorry to say that a quick zap or two as the case was on a big gsd was all it took to train him.....


u didnt train him ... u scared him by causing him pain :nonod:


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## pamela Renfrew (Jun 9, 2010)

Bla, bla, bla, bla..... if only we all had the perfect lives with the perfect pets eh ???? At the end of the day.... this is a forum to voice your opinions and experiences.... not to be shot down in flames for what you did or didnt do...... What is done.... is done.... Ninyo learned his lesson and never looked at a sheep again in his life........it worked for us.....We all live our own lives and take the ups with the downs as we take the downs with the ups..... oh to have the perfectly trained dogs like the rest of you....... I am not going to justify anything that hapened in my life but then I was working over 90hours a week and wasnt fortunate to have much spare time for training my dog.... he was my pet and didnt need constant training..... he was there to be enjoyed and for him to enjoy me also..... Whats done is done and there is no going back...... but.... I would still consider using an electric collar in the future for such purposes..... regardless of what you folk think or not .....so get over it....... oh to live in the perfect world....... Pam


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

pamela Renfrew said:


> Bla, bla, bla, bla..... if only we all had the perfect lives with the perfect pets eh ???? At the end of the day.... this is a forum to voice your opinions and experiences.... not to be shot down in flames for what you did or didnt do...... What is done.... is done.... Ninyo learned his lesson and never looked at a sheep again in his life........it worked for us.....We all live our own lives and take the ups with the downs as we take the downs with the ups..... oh to have the perfectly trained dogs like the rest of you....... I am not going to justify anything that hapened in my life but then I was working over 90hours a week and wasnt fortunate to have much spare time for training my dog.... he was my pet and didnt need constant training..... he was there to be enjoyed and for him to enjoy me also..... Whats done is done and there is no going back...... but.... I would still consider using an electric collar in the future for such purposes..... regardless of what you folk think or not .....so get over it....... oh to live in the perfect world....... Pam


Erm, other people are entitled to their opinions too, and what on EARTH makes you think that people who don't use an Electric Collar live in a perfect world?? Amazingly, some other people work long hours and STILL train their dogs without Ecollars!

I actually think Ecollars have a place, in certain cases, for certain dogs - as long as they're used correctly. But your assumption that everyone except you has an easy time with their dogs is wrong.


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## pamela Renfrew (Jun 9, 2010)

Eh Colliepoodle...... that was not what I was suggesting at all...... I was simply meaning... everyone to their own....... because as far as I am concerned... there is no perfect in life....... oh you can come close.... I am pretty close to having the perfect life now and at the moment I love life and have a lot of time to train my dogs and horse which i have worked very hard through the years to achieve .... and do appreciate it.... I am sorry if I offended anyone in any way...... Maybe I was wrong to use the ecollar..... maybe not.....it certainly worked for me..... at the end of the day all animals are live animals and so all have a mind of their own so no matter how well trained your dog is.... there are always exceptions.....


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I understand the fences can work very well but have no experience of them. The collars also work very well if used correctly on the right dog for the right reason. I am very much against banning something because it has been used wrongly. Rather like banning pit bulls because a handful of people have used them in the wrong way.
> I think the excessive use of a collar in the way described by the owner of a sheep chaser is acceptable in that instance. In fact the collar I have had detailed instructions on how to use it with a proviso that in the case of a livestock worrier you just blasted them. If it is the dogs life or a nasty shock it is no contest in my eyes.
> 
> Maybe the collars should only be used by licensed users but they should not be banned. I can quite see they could be terribly abused though.


I fail to see the reasoning behind these collars, can i just ask, out of interest what is the "right" dog or the "right" reason, personally i cant think of a right dog or the right reason to inflict pain on any animal.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

pamela Renfrew said:


> I am not prepared to keep my dogs indoors for months on end just because the stinky sheep are at the house.... literally at the house... they escape from the fields very often... obviously you have never experienced this... and end up in my garden.... That was the reason my gsd got a hold of one in the first place.... it was in his land...


Fence off a part of the garden as a dog run for when they are outside unattended.

Job done.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> I fail to see the reasoning behind these collars, can i just ask, out of interest what is the "right" dog or the "right" reason, personally i cant think of a right dog or the right reason to inflict pain on any animal.


ok, I will tell you the dog I have used one on. My last standard poodle was totally rabbit mad. Walks were a total misery as we are surrounded by rabbits. I had to put her on the lead around the farm and constantly watch her. She was losing her freedom and was miserable, and I was not enjoying my dog. My dogs are with me all the time and a lot of the time I am working so need a trustworthy dog. She was ending up tied up and unhappy when I was busy.
So I got a collar, I put the dummy on her for a week, I did some recall training with it on (obviously didnt need to use it as she had a good recall when no rabbits were around). Then the first time she took off I shocked her and she ran back to me. I had to do it once more and then again once the following spring. She changed into a happy and responsive dog who kept an eye on me and obeyed me. there was still the odd time she would go if I wasnt paying attention but that was my fault but I could walk her off the lead and she didnt have to be constantly tied up. 
So for the sake of 3 fractions of seconds of discomfort her life was turned around and she was happy. 
I am experienced with dogs and I had trained her obviously and she was 2 years old before I tried the shock collar.

I know a lot of other people who have used them in similar circumstances. I also know people who have used them for other reasons that I do not necessarily agree with but I stand by what I have said and done and I think they have a definite place for improving a dogs life.

You do have to be careful how you use them and your timing has to be impeccable as does your assessment of the dog it is being used on. No good using it on one that will bolt away from its owner when it is upset, it has to be one that has a good relationship with the owner and will definitely come back to them for reassurance after getting a fright.

Oh and the person who wondered if I thought hand guns should be made legal - well actually I think it was a ridiculous knee jerk action after Dunblane, so yes I do not agree with that law at all. Police things, do not make blanket laws that are easily broken.


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

Blitz said:


> ok, I will tell you the dog I have used one on. My last standard poodle was totally rabbit mad. Walks were a total misery as we are surrounded by rabbits. I had to put her on the lead around the farm and constantly watch her. She was losing her freedom and was miserable, and I was not enjoying my dog. My dogs are with me all the time and a lot of the time I am working so need a trustworthy dog. She was ending up tied up and unhappy when I was busy.
> So I got a collar, I put the dummy on her for a week, I did some recall training with it on (obviously didnt need to use it as she had a good recall when no rabbits were around). Then the first time she took off I shocked her and she ran back to me. I had to do it once more and then again once the following spring. She changed into a happy and responsive dog who kept an eye on me and obeyed me. there was still the odd time she would go if I wasnt paying attention but that was my fault but I could walk her off the lead and she didnt have to be constantly tied up.
> So for the sake of 3 fractions of seconds of discomfort her life was turned around and she was happy.
> I am experienced with dogs and I had trained her obviously and she was 2 years old before I tried the shock collar.
> ...


Once again Blitz you entirely miss the point, it doesn't matter whether it works or not, the effectiveness of the devices is irrelevant. It is not a case of 'oh well. it worked for me so that's alright then'. It is a case of what is right and what is wrong, and torturing an animal to get it to do what you want, even for the animals own welfare, even for a single second, is fundamentally wrong.



Blitz said:


> Oh and the person who wondered if I thought hand guns should be made legal - well actually I think it was a ridiculous knee jerk action after Dunblane, so yes I do not agree with that law at all. Police things, do not make blanket laws that are easily broken.


That would be me then, and your reply just sums up for me how totally inhumane and misguided your whole attitude is. At Dunblane in 1996 16 children were shot dead in their own school, as was their teacher as she tried to protect them by using herself as a shield. 12 others were rushed to hospital of which another died of their injuries. 18 People died and a whole community was wrecked, the whole country was shocked and stunned. And you think banning the devices that made all that possible was a 'ridiculous knee jerk reaction'! And just for the record, all of the weapons that Thomas Hamilton used in the attack that day were licenced and legally owned, so policing the problem really did the trick there didn't it?

I pity both you and your dogs I really, really do.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Well I have managed to train a lot of dogs with all sorts of issues without resorting to cruelty. People who are too lazy or stupid to train without pain are simply sadists.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Well I have managed to train a lot of dogs with all sorts of issues without resorting to cruelty. People who are too lazy or stupid to train without pain are simply sadists.


Me too and I agree!


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Suppose anyone who has used these collars to cruely get their dogs to do what they want them to do are going to defend themselves and that only natural. I can also see to a point that there is a right and a wrong way to use them but noone can get away from the fact that used right way or wrong way the animal still feels pain and in my book thats wrong.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I think it about sums you lot up. You have no idea of the reality of life.
There is so much on here I dont agree with and so I wont be on here again unfortunately as I go on other sites where differences are discussed in a sensible way and it is accepted that different methods work for different people.

As for Dunblane - how many other shootings have their been since that ridiculous law that stopped a lot of people from enjoying their hobby but didnt stop any criminals or idiots from using guns in a way that was illegal long before the knee jerk law after Dunblane.

You lot are quick enough to say there shouldnt be laws on pit bulls etc but there is no difference whatsoever - except that abuse on the use of viscious dogs is much more widespread than abuse in the use of guns. Personally I think cars should be banned, after all they are often used as weapons and many hundreds of people are killed every year :lol:


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

We were 'discussing' it and, unless I'm mistaken, we were'nt the ones spitting the dummy about it because a few disagree? :

Don't mind me. I just spent 30 years of my life helping dogs and their people without ever having to use electric shock devices. Me knows nothing. :thumbup:


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

Hang on, let me get this straight. You are happy for people to own guns but you want to ban cars? I have a very good idea of the reality of life, just not, it would seem, the same reality as you.

Please do not take this personally because it really isn't, but do you actually read what you write on here?


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I think it about sums you lot up. You have no idea of the reality of life.
> There is so much on here I dont agree with and so I wont be on here again unfortunately as I go on other sites where differences are discussed in a sensible way and it is accepted that different methods work for different people.
> 
> As for Dunblane - how many other shootings have their been since that ridiculous law that stopped a lot of people from enjoying their hobby but didnt stop any criminals or idiots from using guns in a way that was illegal long before the knee jerk law after Dunblane.
> ...


I dont think you can say it hasnt been discussed sensibly on here, everyone has their own opinions, just as you have yours, doesnt mean to say because many of us find these contraptions cruel we have no reality on life or we are not sensible, other sites must be agreeing with you then if they are sensible people unlike us because thats what i think your problem is now, you have come across people that will challenge/disagree with your training methods.

If you really believe in this way of training then stick to it and ignore others not get offensivly touchy.
I always think that when someone gets sooo defensive when they are disagreed with are at the back of their mind doubting themselves.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> Suppose anyone who has used these collars to cruely get their dogs to do what they want them to do are going to defend themselves and that only natural. I can also see to a point that there is a right and a wrong way to use them but noone can get away from the fact that used right way or wrong way the animal still feels pain and in my book thats wrong.


this is why I am annoyed (not just you HM but other posters too). You asked me a question and I answered it politely with a good reason why I have used a collar. You then intimate that I am cruel. You obviously cannot see at all that it is better to have a happy relaxed companion dog than one tied up all the time and unhappy. That is your choice, but I would disagree with you, however (whatever I felt) I would not call you cruel to keep your dog on the lead all the time and not be able to allow it to be a dog.
It is a tool for special cases, not a training aid for every dog and every little thing that needs some patience to train but this is what you (generic you) do not seem able to understand.

As such, I feel I have so little in common with some of the main posters on here so I will bow out gracefully and no bother to post again. I have enjoyed my time on here, I have strongly disagreed with a lot I have read, agreed with some but on the whole I think this post (the manner of it, rather than the actual opinions) has swayed things so far that I am not likely to be back.
I am sad about it but more and more has been annoying me about attitudes (and frankly scaring me that there are people that behave like this) so I am better to go on sites where differences of opinions are respected and no one is told they treat their animals cruelly because their training methods differ from some others.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

I think its about time JSR posted on this thread. She has a dog who was a sheep killer, yet with a large amount of training and some bloody hard work she didnt ever feel the need to resort to a shock collar.

As for your garden, get a dog run - problem solved.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

When a person resorts to methods which cause a dog pain and distress, even momentarily, I will say they are WRONG to do so - every time! I make no apologies for that and if that offends anybody, so be it.


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## beris (Aug 30, 2010)

I am neither for or against but was prepared to listen to both sides of the argument.
I have followed this thread through very carefully and been very disappointed by the standard of debating this subject.
Instead of respecting each others opinions it thas turned into maliciously insulting and abusing each other.
It has also made me question if I want to post comments on this forum if this is the way people are treated when opinions differ to their own.
I personally am not prepared to be insulted for having an opinion.


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## pamela Renfrew (Jun 9, 2010)

Thanks Beris..... I must admit that I am sticking with Blitz on this one..... Everyone to their own.....It gave me a happy life with my big boy for years..... and if I were to have a big dog again that thought about troubling sheep.... I would do the same thing again....!!! Pam


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## keirk (Aug 9, 2010)

Blitz said:


> You obviously cannot see at all that it is better to have a happy relaxed companion dog than one tied up all the time and unhappy.


I think I speak for the whole forum when I say I agree with you. But there are ways to train a dog to be relaxed and happy WITHOUT ever using a shock collar.

Shock collars may sometimes work, depending on the dog. Or they could lead to a whole host of other issues (including fear based aggression etc). You just don't know until you press that button. +R / humane training will always work because my dogs reaction to hot sausage or chicken is entirely predictable - using pain as a training aid isn't.

Your dog didn't sign up for his life with you - you recruited him. Your dog didn't lie to you when you welcomed him into your life - you accepted him and his rabbit / sheep hangups. He is not a possession or an objected for you to shape. He is a living being - living with your guidance beside you.

Talking about "real life" is complete bullshit. It's a excuse for not having the time or care to teach in a humane manner.



beris said:


> Instead of respecting each others opinions it thas turned into maliciously insulting and abusing each other.


Noone has been insulted or abused in this thread. Get a grip.

Not defending our opinions is tantamount to agreement. And with agreement comes acceptance. When we post on this or any forum, or give advice or offer opinion anywhere, we become in someway the teachers of others, I'm not happy teaching others that it's OK to use pain to teach.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

keirk said:


> Noone has been insulted or abused in this thread. Get a grip.
> 
> Not defending our opinions is tantamount to agreement. And with agreement comes acceptance. When we post on this or any forum, or give advice or offer opinion anywhere, we become in someway the teachers of others, I'm not happy teaching others that it's OK to use pain to teach.


I think that this discussion has been quite civil. The only snippiness and flouncing that I have seen has come from those who think it is 'ok' to use electric shock devices on dogs. :confused1: They somehow see educated opposition to such methods as 'abusive and insulting'. That's a shame but there ya go! :001_cool:

I concur totally with your post.


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

IMO you should treat and look after your dogs as you would your child. Dogs are not 'just animals' they are a member of the family.

If you had children and no fence then what would you do?? Stick a collar on them? I don't think so. You would either not leave them out alone, or seperate off an area for them to safely use.


My friends northern inuit, when I had him he ran off and bit a sheep. Did I get a shock collar and terrify the life out of him and make him scared to go by sheep? No. I made sure he was under control anywhere there might be sheep.


My dogs can escape my garden. I can't afford to have it re-fenced. More expensive than buying them an e collar or electric fence I buy a dog run so I can safely leave them in the garden!


shock collars are cruel and lazy  I feel sorry for any ones porr dogs who has been subjected to it. 


I knew a 'trainer' who advised someone to use a shock collar to stop there collie chasing cars. Everytime the dog chased a car they warned him, then shocked. He ended up getting pts because he was so terrified of going out on the street and one day just attacked his owner.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

PoisonGirl said:


> IMO you should treat and look after your dogs as you would your child. Dogs are not 'just animals' they are a member of the family.
> 
> If you had children and no fence then what would you do?? Stick a collar on them? I don't think so. You would either not leave them out alone, or seperate off an area for them to safely use.
> 
> ...




A far more realistic outcome to using a shock collar, I would have thought.


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> [/B]
> 
> A far more realistic outcome to using a shock collar, I would have thought.


Oh I have many many more! From woking in the dog world.

My cousins poor wee patterdale. She was advised to use a shock collar to stop him running up to other people/dogs on walks and barking.
Instead of taking my advice to not let him off til he learned to come back.
Nope then the poor bugger was even more scared of other people and did eventually bite 

A dog up at the kennels, was so terrified of everything, but as he was abandoned no one knew why. Then some anonymous caller said he use to be chained in the garden and if he barked or ran towards the children playing the owner pressed the button on the shock collar 

The only time I would EVER used any kind of training collar will be when I get my deaf english bull terror, and will be vibrate only.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

I think the real danger with these collars is that they become yet another 'aid'.

Look how many there are on the market..... haltis, gencons etc, harnesses, the list is endless and while I'm not putting ecollars in the same league - what happened to teaching your dog to walk to heel? We have become lazy in dog ownership, expecting the companionship with little training.

I can see them as a last resort, but really with training, care and forethought, that last resort shouldn't be necessary.

Just to show another side to the story. I have gundogs and in the UK they are mainly trained using positive methods (with corrections too), and they rely a lot on the natural instincts that have been bred into the dog. In the US, ecollars are the norm for training a gundog. The results of this are dogs being bred that have lost a lot of their natural instincts and they have become less steady, so hyper that they are unable to keep them in the house - it is little wonder that our British working labradors are so prized out there - equally having the drive and natural abilities of a working dog and yet just as home as a family pet.



> I knew a 'trainer' who advised someone to use a shock collar to stop there collie chasing cars. Everytime the dog chased a car they warned him, then shocked. He ended up getting pts because he was so terrified of going out on the street and one day just attacked his owner.


This is a real danger, particularly in the hands of someone inexperienced (and I include experienced pet owners in that too). It happens all too often in all kinds of training - inadvertently training for something you didn't intend to.


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

I would say they are more of a 'quick fix' and something you would expect mr CM to use on his show.

I use a canny collar as an aid, but only when I have the time to combine it with proper training, and its bcause I have bad joints so the constant pulling on my arm sometimes dislocates me shoulder or have painful elbow/wrist.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I use a gentle leader because both my dogs are quite a bit heavier than me. Whilst I can hold on to Joshua in most circumstances, Ferdie is another story. He is stubborn and he knows he is stronger than me. He is also extremely friendly, but not everyone we meet wants 12 stone of black, hair, drooling dog running up to them. I know I can keep him and them safe with a gentle leader and it doesn't hurt him or anyone else.

I could, of course, zap him every time he goes near anyone and then I would expect the result to be fear aggression whenever he sees a stranger. I know which I prefer.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> I think the real danger with these collars is that they become yet another 'aid'.
> 
> Look how many there are on the market..... haltis, gencons etc, harnesses, the list is endless and while I'm not putting ecollars in the same league - what happened to teaching your dog to walk to heel? We have become lazy in dog ownership, expecting the companionship with little training.
> 
> ...


I find them a quick fix or aid as mentioned, i have to admit ive had 3 springers have 2 now and a cocker and all mine have/do pull like trains and i have never mastered it, i have mastered recall they are all brilliant but for some reason i havnt made the grade when it comes to walking to heel or anywhere near heel on lead walking, i tried the halti with my first one i hated it and so did he and it upset his brill recall, i tried the harness and was dissapointed in myself really that i had given in to an "aid" he still pulled and he rubbed himself sore, so no way would i use it i was told a little soreness for a while he will soon get the message and stop but i couldnt do it to any of them as it was my fault they were/are like they are. Training just needs time and patience which i had for everything else but this. So no way could i resort to the shocking. They are much better now but no where near good.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

I wasn't suggested headcollars and the like are wrong - I've used them myself with a rescue I was fostering while I had a bad back, they certainly have their place, but they are no substitute to training. My point (that I obviously didn't get across  ) was that given how common it is to rely on aids rather than training (and I'm not suggesting anyone who's posted on here does), and if you look at advice given when a poster says their dogs is pulling, the number of posts suggesting use of an 'aid' rather than training illustrates this, it concerns me greatly that it could become equally acceptable to use an ecollar as a training aid.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> I wasn't suggested headcollars and the like are wrong - I've used them myself with a rescue I was fostering while I had a bad back, they certainly have their place, but they are no substitute to training. My point (that I obviously didn't get across  ) was that given how common it is to rely on aids rather than training (and I'm not suggesting anyone who's posted on here does), and if you look at advice given when a poster says their dogs is pulling, the number of posts suggesting use of an 'aid' rather than training illustrates this, it concerns me greatly that it could become equally acceptable to use an ecollar as a training aid.


Sorry, Rocco, I wasn't actually referring to your post, just pointing out that there are better ways and that most aids are harmless. As to training a dog to walk to heel, I think the headcollars help with that as they get used to not being able to go off where they like, so stop trying. I just wouldn't trust Ferdie or myself on the street without one. I often walk them back to the car on the heath with just their leads and half check collars, and they walk nicely, but then I am not concerned if they do take off because there are no roads and people expect to see lots of dogs.

Having said that, newfies in general are not given to pulling, it is just a question of being able to control them if they see something they want. I don't enjoy people yelling that my dog is too strong for me if he takes me off after another dog. I know I can control him with the headcollar and everyone thinks what well trained dogs I have!


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