# To neuter or not



## kian (Feb 22, 2008)

After reading up on neutering or not we decided no but now due to kians latest behaviour problems i am not sure if nuetering is my only way forward or not 

Let me explain he is now one year old and until approx 4 weeks ago we had no probs with him and our older collie who is fourteen play fighting, etc shane always was the dominent dog now i think maybe due to kians age and or older dog being weaker the pup is at times for no reason is showing signs of aggression not only to shane but has started doing it out on walks with other dogs 

He has always been a very nervous dog why i seriously do not know as he has never ever been ill treated 

I have to add is fantastic with our son who is severlly handicapped and he is a very intelligent dog apart from this timidness now agression which obviously i cannot allow to go on as older collie obviously is not fit for this keeping them separate is not an option as i believe in my dogs always being allowed free run of the house plus it is only now and again the younger dog is being aggressive do i need to nueter as a friends told me that this is the only way to stop all this but i am as i said above wary that if i do he might become even more timid which i do not want 

Thank you all for taking the time to read i hope my post has made sense


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2008)

sorri had to ask do u like westlife?


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## tordiamond (Oct 21, 2008)

i had my dog done about 2 months ago because he was aggresive towards the other 2 dogs in my house,i can,t leave him on his own with them,he has got abit better but it can take up to 6 months for his testerone to go down,but i,m always on edge incase he suddenly goes for one of them.But you can,t guarentee this will work.


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## louiseb (Nov 9, 2008)

If your not planning on breeding with him then I suggest you get him neutered just for the health issues.
I have grown up with border collies and my mums 11 yr old is now getting a hard time off the 2 yr old, who is flexing his muscles and dominating the older dog. Fights break out every now and then. My mum wants him done but my dad says no!!! What is it with men and dangly bits..lol.

As for aggressive behaviour. Neutering may rule out testosterone and you may find he has fear aggression with other dogs. This can be sorted out with help from a good dog behaviourist.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

I am not breeding from mine, he was getting "the urge" with everything so i deemed it unfair for him to get thses feelings and not be able to do anything about it. One quick trip the vets and he's now recovering nicely with no immediate ill effects.


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## MelanieW34 (Sep 28, 2008)

As far as I know, neuturing may not change his behaviour, I think it depends on why he is behaving like he is.

My mum had her dog neutured hoping it would calm him down and it hasnt made a blind bit of difference, because his bad behaviour is due to a lack of training.

I also think the cons outweigh the pros's for neuturing, so unless there was a medical reason for it I wouldnt bother. 

How old is Kian?


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

MelanieW34 said:


> I also think the cons outweigh the pros's for neuturing, so unless there was a medical reason for it I wouldnt bother.


So what do you see as the cons and the pros of neuturing then? Since Dillon was done he has come on leaps and bounds in all aspects of his behaviour from obedience to even being around livestock without any issue.


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## ben_576 (Oct 22, 2008)

Hey there im a dog behaviourist, these are my reasons for telling people to have their dogs Neutered...

NEUTERING

CASTRATION can help prevent:

	Sexual frustration 
	Indoor and outdoor territory marking 
	Dog to dog aggression 
	Dog to human aggression 
	Dominance 
	Cancer of the testes 
	Cancer of the prostate 

SPAYING can help prevent: 

	Pregnancy 
	Phantom pregnancy 
	Pyometra 
	Cancer of the womb 
	Cancer of the mammary glands 

From a behavioural perspective I would advise neutering your dog as it can significantly reduce a variety of problems in both male and females - especially when used in conjunction with behavioural programmes. Neutering is not however a quick fix and can take some months for you to see the benefits.


Hope this is an eye opener


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## MelanieW34 (Sep 28, 2008)

hutch6 said:


> So what do you see as the cons and the pros of neuturing then? Since Dillon was done he has come on leaps and bounds in all aspects of his behaviour from obedience to even being around livestock without any issue.


I was just oing on the info i have read on here, seems to crop up on a regular basis.


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

ben_576 said:


> Hey there im a dog behaviourist, these are my reasons for telling people to have their dogs Neutered...
> 
> NEUTERING
> 
> ...


I always find it funny how people not massively experiencd with entire dogs have a whole set of reasons for neutering, yet breeders, who would usually routinely have entire dogs might advocate spaying, but very, very rarely advocate neutering.

Neutering has been shown in a lot of cases to make fear aggressive dogs, or dogs that are aggressive for other reasons, worse. Most behavioural problems that are said to be solved by neutering are actually behavioural/training problems (eg. humping, straying/running off, marking...)

Prostate and testicular cancer is rare. Very rare.

In bitches, I have heard of a lot of breeders say they bitches lose their 'softness' when spayed.

My advice to the OP would be to attempt to sort out this problem as if the dog were alreayd neutered so that wasn't an option to change behaviour before neutering to change the behaviour. Neutering is NOT a training aid or a substitute for training.


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

Totally agree with Jackson, I have seen many nervous male dogs behaviour become worse after castration.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Wot Jackson said.

Think about it this way - if a dog is fear aggressive then taking away his testosterone away (which as we all know makes male humans as well as male dogs ever so brave and manly  ) may make things worse.

ETA castration also makes your dog bark in a high voice.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

mmm.... not an easy one.

In principle, I agree with Jackson..... however, and it's a big however, in practise I find that many, many pet owners are not able or prepared to train and/or handle an entire dog. In a heavily populated dog area (I live in one), these entire dogs are a complete pain in the ...... They cause problems, scraps, are rude and cause distress to other dogs and their owners. Their owners are often oblivious or just assume it is normal doggy behaviour.

So... more and more, I am coming round to the idea that most pets are better off neutered.

Edited to add:

In my experience, it's these rude entire dogs that are responsible for much of the bullying of neutered males - so it's a bit of a vicious circle.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

I dickered about whether to get my girl spayed... I've let her have one season and I think I'll end up getting her done in 3 months time because a) I hope to compete at some stage and don't want to possibly miss shows and b) There are LOADS of entire dogs around our estate, which wouldn't be so bad if they were kept on lead but round these 'ere parts, leads are for wimps it would seem.... every day you see at least 3 Staffies being walked by a tattooed yobbo with no lead.

Actually - how do they DO that??? I've lost count of the amount of dogs I've seen round here offlead but to give them their due, they always seem to follow their owners politely, never seem distracted by anything and generally behave impeccably. The thought of trying to take Boo through the town centre offlead makes me break out in hives hmy:


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## Guest (Nov 19, 2008)

jackson said:


> I always find it funny how people not massively experiencd with entire dogs have a whole set of reasons for neutering, yet breeders, who would usually routinely have entire dogs might advocate spaying, but very, very rarely advocate neutering.
> 
> Neutering has been shown in a lot of cases to make fear aggressive dogs, or dogs that are aggressive for other reasons, worse. Most behavioural problems that are said to be solved by neutering are actually behavioural/training problems (eg. humping, straying/running off, marking...)
> 
> ...


^^^^What she said!


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## kian (Feb 22, 2008)

A huge thanks to all who replied to my post 

As i pointed out my main reason for ditthering to neuter or not was and still is that i do not want kian to become more timid than he is already 


He has never ever tried to hump anything and as i said previously is in fact a very very intelligent clever dog bar this one or two probs ,luckily where i live is very very isolated so even out walking him it is rare for him to be around where there would be a lot of dogs and if i do see ppl he is alway's put straight back on his lead as he is still prone to running away to play 


Again i am here in two minds as quote from jenny and jackson :I have seen many nervous male dogs behaviour become worse after castration. 

The above quote i am hearing way to much thus making me think castation might not be the right choice for our dog even taking into account all the pros and cons ben also pointed out 

Our older collie soon to be fifteen was never neuterd and has lived a very healthy life maybe he was just lucky 

Lastly i am under no illusions whatsever to think for one second Neutering is a training aid or a substitute for training my main fear here was if i went ahead kian would become more timid something i want to avoid at all costs 

Again everyone a huge huge thank you to you all for your input here it is much appriciated :thumbup1:


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> I dickered about whether to get my girl spayed... I've let her have one season and I think I'll end up getting her done in 3 months time because a) I hope to compete at some stage and don't want to possibly miss shows and b) There are LOADS of entire dogs around our estate, which wouldn't be so bad if they were kept on lead but round these 'ere parts, leads are for wimps it would seem.... every day you see at least 3 Staffies being walked by a tattooed yobbo with no lead.
> 
> *Actually - how do they DO that??? I've lost count of the amount of dogs I've seen round here offlead but to give them their due, they always seem to follow their owners politely, never seem distracted by anything and generally behave impeccably. The thought of trying to take Boo through the town centre offlead makes me break out in hives hmy*:


Someone round her eis like that. they got a 10 week old puppy and promptly proceeded to cycle everywhere with it following behind, no lead. I think it happens because these are the people that it doesn't occur to what can happen if their dog runs off into the road, or up to another dog that might attack it, or be scared of other dogs etc etc so just waltz off regardless of what pup is doing, and so pup has to follow on or get left behind.

All very well if you've got the nerve for it!


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

On a slight tangent, I really think there might be a potential business opportunity for an enterprising homeless person to offer their services as a dog socialiser.


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## ben_576 (Oct 22, 2008)

jackson said:


> I always find it funny how people not massively experiencd with entire dogs have a whole set of reasons for neutering, yet breeders, who would usually routinely have entire dogs might advocate spaying, but very, very rarely advocate neutering.
> 
> Neutering has been shown in a lot of cases to make fear aggressive dogs, or dogs that are aggressive for other reasons, worse. Most behavioural problems that are said to be solved by neutering are actually behavioural/training problems (eg. humping, straying/running off, marking...)
> 
> ...


Its people like you who really dont get things like this, you claim to know so much, are willing to argue with a behaviour professional who is EXTREMELY passionate about dogs who has 15 years of experience in rescue, i CERTAINLY dont see it as a training aid.. and what you say about breeders.. this is what i have to say to you...

500,000! dogs are put to sleep each year in the UK in pounds, vets practices ect. the reason for this is there are not enough homes, the cure to this is that dogs get neutered and so less dogs get bred, or accidentally bred as they dont have anything to get pregnant with or they dont have any nuts and so less dogs get put to sleep each year for no reasons and less innocent lives get destroyed.. the benefits i listed above are extras. If you by ANY means care for dogs, then maybe, JUST maybe you can see that there seems to be a problem. You have no idea some of the things which go on related to this subject so please next time THINK before taking a pop.

p.s. Neutering is both castrating and spaying so you obviously havent much knowledge if you dont know the difference.

Ben


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2008)

i have always had my boys neutered and its never caused them any problems or made them nervous.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

I have to admit that I used to subscribe to the idea that it could make nervous dogs worse, but following personal experience and also talking with a well-known leading behaviourist, I don't think it is something to worry too much about. Whilst the idea that lack of testosterone may make a dog more fearful would appear logical, in reality, the evidence is that in most of these kind of cases, the lack of testosterone actually makes it far less of a target for other male dogs, so actually reducing the risk of any situations occuring anyway. And it usually the case that the less confident castrated dog is more relaxed as it does not have the male hormones driving him to behave as a male. This is obviously not an immediate effect as it takes a while for the hormones to diminish. It also depends on how long the dog has been entire - if a while, this is then a learned behaviour rather than purely a hormonal one.

I totally agree that many breeders can quite happily keep entire males and do not advocate castration, BUT.... they are generally experienced dog people who are more involved with their dogs than the average pet owner. I do think that many problems would be avoided, both behavioural as well as accidental pregnancies, if more pets were neutered, so now I would recommend neutering of pets.


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

ben_576 said:


> Its people like you who really dont get things like this, you claim to know so much, are willing to argue with a behaviour professional who is EXTREMELY passionate about dogs who has 15 years of experience in rescue, i CERTAINLY dont see it as a training aid.. and what you say about breeders.. this is what i have to say to you...
> 
> 500,000! dogs are put to sleep each year in the UK in pounds, vets practices ect. the reason for this is there are not enough homes, the cure to this is that dogs get neutered and so less dogs get bred, or accidentally bred as they dont have anything to get pregnant with or they dont have any nuts and so less dogs get put to sleep each year for no reasons and less innocent lives get destroyed.. the benefits i listed above are extras. If you by ANY means care for dogs, then maybe, JUST maybe you can see that there seems to be a problem. You have no idea some of the things which go on related to this subject so please next time THINK before taking a pop.
> 
> ...


Excuse me... People like me? How on earth do you know what sort of person I am or what experience I have?

It is ridiculous in the extreme to suggest that failure to neuter or spay (and it is petit to pick up on the way people chose to say things) contrubutes to the dog population problem. It is irresponsible onwership that doe sthat. Plenty of breeders all around the country manage to keep entires dogs and bitches, sometimes both in one home, without ever having a single accidental mating.

I actually do have a good idea fo what goes on related to this subject, I have helped out with my breed rescue in the past and having recently moved to a new area and arranging to help again.

There is nothing wrong with breeding dogs, providing it is done morally and in a responsible manner and I genuinely do not think that responsible breeders contribute on a large scale to the rescues, although it would be naive to suggest that they never could. The pedigrees in rescue are almost all bred by BYB's and puppy farmers who couldn't care less about that puppy once the money is handed over.

In Swedent hey have amuch stricter system regarding dog breeding. No puppy farmers, no BYB's and rescues are virtually empty. yet they do not have a blanket neuter or spay policy.

And actually, the figure for last year was 23,000 I seem to remember, not 500,000. However, one being put to sleep is still unnacceptable.


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

Dundee said:


> I have to admit that I used to subscribe to the idea that it could make nervous dogs worse, but following personal experience and also talking with a well-known leading behaviourist, I don't think it is something to worry too much about. Whilst the idea that lack of testosterone may make a dog more fearful would appear logical, in reality, the evidence is that in most of these kind of cases, the lack of testosterone actually makes it far less of a target for other male dogs, so actually reducing the risk of any situations occuring anyway. And it usually the case that the less confident castrated dog is more relaxed as it does not have the male hormones driving him to behave as a male. This is obviously not an immediate effect as it takes a while for the hormones to diminish. It also depends on how long the dog has been entire - if a while, this is then a learned behaviour rather than purely a hormonal one.
> 
> I totally agree that many breeders can quite happily keep entire males and do not advocate castration, BUT.... they are generally experienced dog people who are more involved with their dogs than the average pet owner. I do think that many problems would be avoided, both behavioural as well as accidental pregnancies, if more pets were neutered, so now I would recommend neutering of pets.


Very sensible post, although my experience of neutered dogs (very limited) and that of the behaviourists I know is different. I guess we can each only go by our own experiences. However, why not reccomend education instead?

I do agree that there are some dog that are better off neutered or spayed because of lack of knowledge from the owner, but in a lot of cases, the root problem is that these people should never really have been allowed to own dogs in the first place. However, sadly, we live in a society where if you want something you think it's your right to have it.


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2008)

jackson said:


> Excuse me... People like me? How on earth do you know what sort of person I am or what experience I have?
> 
> It is ridiculous in the extreme to suggest that failure to neuter or spay (and it is petit to pick up on the way people chose to say things) contrubutes to the dog population problem. It is irresponsible onwership that doe sthat. Plenty of breeders all around the country manage to keep entires dogs and bitches, sometimes both in one home, without ever having a single accidental mating.
> 
> ...


Totally agree with your post.
I have owned an Entire male with two bitches,never once did we have an accidental mating.
I currently own two dogs,my dog is entire my bitch was spayed in April,she had 3 seasons before been spayed,again no accidental matings.
I do believe bitches which are not been bred from should be spayed,simply to cut out the risk of Pyo as many owners will not recognise the symptoms,but I personally do not believe in routinely castrating dogs unless there is an underlying medical issue.


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2008)

excellent post Dundee.


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