# GSD owners call for Crufts to sack Kisko!



## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

There is a big hooha on twitter and facebook with regard to this coldwetnose: GSD world call for Caroline Kisko to be sacked

Does anyone know what is going on, and if there is a utube clip of this interview? I would very much appreciate the link please.

From what I have heard, the GSD's at Crufts this year were awful!


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## DerbyMerc (Dec 1, 2009)

Hard to comment on the GSD without having seen it in the flesh. Certainly having seen the offending clip on TV it did _appear_ that the dog was a very poorly constructed animal.

Having said that I can't see why GSDs should be picked out more than many other breeds where exaggeration for show purposes has led to health concerns or discomfort for animals. I went on Saturday and having looked at the Pugs, Bostons, Bulldogs and a few others I can understand why many people see dog showing as a bad thing.

Personally I think the KC should be harder line on these things and if large sections of certain breeds go their own way then so be it - some have threatened to do it - I say go ahead and stop bringing the rest of us into disrepute.


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

I saw this interview but I cant find it on the web anywhere. I have to say I was mortified at what she said about the dog on TV. If she had a problem then why say it to millions of people watching. The dog had qualified for crufts and if they feel that strongly about it then they should ban all breeds with health problems from entering until they can be sorted out. which would prob mean no more crufts as the GSD is not the only breed with problems. 
I wonder how the owner of that dog felt when they watched it back and heard what she had to say. It would be different if she was talking about the breed in general but to single out one dog is beyond me. I think it is terrible.

I fully understand that there are health probs within the breed but felt that the comment she made was uncalled for.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

What did she say exactly?

I saw the GSD, looked appalling.


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

I didnt see the gsd - can some one post a link.


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

GillyR said:


> I didnt see the gsd - can some one post a link.


I cant find the interview anywhere, its not on youtube and cant find it on the web, ill keep looking x


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## London Dogwalker (Oct 27, 2009)

I haven't heard it, will have a proper listen.

I'm glad someone's saying something though and don't agree with the calls to sack her, these banana backed physically wrecked GSD's need to be excluded from all dog shows, there should be a standard to breed back in good hips and structure.


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## kaisa624 (Mar 5, 2010)

I didn't see the GSD either, anyone got a link at all? What was wrong with it? I didn't hear about it =[


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

Still cant find anything on the net


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

V Clokellys Lagos pedigree information - German shepherd dog

I *think* this is the dog.


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

London Dogwalker said:


> I haven't heard it, will have a proper listen.
> 
> I'm glad someone's saying something though and don't agree with the calls to sack her, these banana backed physically wrecked GSD's need to be excluded from all dog shows, there should be a standard to breed back in good hips and structure.


im not sure if you know this but if you sign up to the a breed specific forum you will see that the backs of these dogs have nothing to do with how good or bad the hips are. majority of these dogs have better hip scores and are in far better health than the standard bred pet gsd with straight backs


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## nic101 (Jun 8, 2009)

if this is the same do gi saw - quite honestly id ban all GSD's from Crufts tilll they sort it out

their backs are discusting.... and i cant see how anyone can find that acceptable!!!

btw - i love GSD's - straight backed ones/working type...!!!


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

nic101 said:


> if this is the same do gi saw - quite honestly id ban all GSD's from Crufts tilll they sort it out
> 
> their backs are discusting.... and i cant see how anyone can find that acceptable!!!
> 
> btw - i love GSD's - straight backed ones/working type...!!!


so what about all the other breeds like the pug, bull dog, chi, and every other breed that IMO has far worse health problems than the GSD. Why is the GSD the one that is always singled out.

BTW I do get what you are saying and agree that if it is not found to be acceptable then all breeds with problems should be banned


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## London Dogwalker (Oct 27, 2009)

cutekiaro1 said:


> im not sure if you know this but if you sign up to the a breed specific forum you will see that the backs of these dogs have nothing to do with how good or bad the hips are. majority of these dogs have better hip scores and are in far better health than the standard bred pet gsd with straight backs


Nah I can't ever imagine owning a GSD tbh, not my kind of dog, nice for other people! 

Would they be breeders/showers by any chance? :001_huh:

The hips end up low slung because of the sloping back, the legs end up with ugly cow hocks, this then puts added pressure on the joints, I'm not talking about HD, I'm just talking about normal shaped hips sitting where they used to be not dragging on the floor, sorry for any confusion. 

Just look at the state of that dog. I'm sorry if that offends anyone, but I find that disgusting.

and yeh I find the composition of other breeds shameful too, but that's another thread.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

i would give those judges a right good kicking by placing those dogs and only encouraging them to be bred like this.... they dont need to be bannd. By simply not being placed breeders would be discouraged to continue breeding them in this way. Simple.

There has been complaints about the judging at crufts on the gsd's and rightly so..


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## michaelasi (Oct 29, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> V Clokellys Lagos pedigree information - German shepherd dog
> 
> I *think* this is the dog.


HOW BLOODY DISGUSTING Human's are? the poor love have no fault he has a lower back.

bless his heart


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Nonnie said:


> V Clokellys Lagos pedigree information - German shepherd dog
> 
> I *think* this is the dog.


OMG that is I agree, mortifying 

As a GSD owner I certainly would NOT want my dog to look like that!

Thank God that a move is afoot to bring back the straighter and shorter backs. The current GSD show dogs that I have seen are appalling. However, I do agree that to single out one dog in a show that larger contains breeds, for whom the majority have health problems, is wrong.

I only wish I could find a link to that offending interview.


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

London Dogwalker said:


> Nah I can't ever imagine owning a GSD tbh, not my kind of dog, nice for other people!
> 
> Would they be breeders/showers by any chance? :001_huh:
> 
> ...


oh sorry I thought you meant HD . They arent breeders/showers.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

I don't know what C Kisko said, but I gather she was criticising the shape of the dog. Good for her. No dog should be that shape. However, I'd like to know why she (or any representative of the KC) didn't start shouting about it when these mis-shapen dogs started appearing 20 or 30 years ago. When I was young, GSDs had nice nearly level backs and could walk and run properly. I'm just as appalled by what's been done to pugs, pekes, bulldogs and other breeds.


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## nic101 (Jun 8, 2009)

cutekiaro1 said:


> so what about all the other breeds like the pug, bull dog, chi, and every other breed that IMO has far worse health problems than the GSD. Why is the GSD the one that is always singled out.
> 
> BTW I do get what you are saying and agree that if it is not found to be acceptable then all breeds with problems should be banned


totally agree about the other breeds but i only mentioned the gsd as thats what we are on about. the pug ha sterrible breathing problems!!

bulldog has changed so much over the past few decades (ok a long time btu they have changed and the KC seem to accomodate........)

i did a presentation in uni about the changing of breeds and it was absolutely shocking..!



Natik said:


> i would give those judges a right good kicking by placing those dogs and only encouraging them to be bred like this.... they dont need to be bannd. By simply not being placed breeders would be discouraged to continue breeding them in this way. Simple.
> 
> There has been complaints about the judging at crufts on the gsd's and rightly so..


yeah i agree - banning i guess is extreme but cant imagin ethe judges changing now?

just so glad a GSD didnt win best in show!!!


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## kaisa624 (Mar 5, 2010)

That is a very strange shaped back. I'm used to GSD's have pretty straight backs, but not like that banana thing... weird


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## kirksandallchins (Nov 3, 2007)

cutekiaro1 said:


> so what about all the other breeds like the pug, bull dog, chi, and every other breed that IMO has far worse health problems than the GSD. Why is the GSD the one that is always singled out.
> 
> BTW I do get what you are saying and agree that if it is not found to be acceptable then all breeds with problems should be banned


I think the main problem with show GSD people is that will not accept how strange their dogs look and move - they think the majority of the population are wrong

In some ways I applaud GSD breeders for carrying out extensive health tests - but then they breed dogs will appalling backlines and exaggerated movement.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

I noticed in the pedigree that one grandfather is the infamous Zamp.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

That gsd was horrific and so nervous and jumpy as well . I agree banning might be too extreme but they do need to start putting much better dogs forward the bulldog was practically obese.


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> That gsd was horrific and so nervous and jumpy as well . I agree banning might be too extreme but they do need to start putting much better dogs forward the bulldog was practically obese.


I didnt actually see the dog in the ring I only saw the interview and a short clip of him moving 
I cant find a clip of it anywhere I would have thought it would have been on youtube x


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

kirksandallchins said:


> I think the main problem with show GSD people is that will not accept how strange their dogs look and move - they think the majority of the population are wrong
> 
> In some ways I applaud GSD breeders for carrying out extensive health tests - but then they breed dogs will appalling backlines and exaggerated movement.


I understand what you are saying but I dont think its that they wont accept it but more so that they think it is the right look for the GSD. JMO though


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

cutekiaro1 said:


> I didnt actually see the dog in the ring I only saw the interview and a short clip of him moving
> I cant find a clip of it anywhere I would have thought it would have been on youtube x


They have the group judging on the tv site but you have to buy a catch up ticket. He could barely walk I can't understand how anyone can think thats how a dog bred to work all day in the field is meant to look . But I guess as long as he can do the pretty flying trot it doesn't matter. The open bitch winner was worse


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> They have the group judging on the tv site but you have to buy a catch up ticket. He could barely walk I can't understand how anyone can think thats how a dog bred to work all day in the field is meant to look . But I guess as long as he can do the pretty flying trot it doesn't matter. The open bitch winner was worse


 I might have to go on the site just to have a look. Cant believe that I missed it


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## nic101 (Jun 8, 2009)

thats why the GSD owners want her sacked though - they have to kno wits wrong - yet they dont want to admit it.

im surprised the KC admitted it though! im glad they did.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

You know what I think about this Nina, don't think I have to speak about it again!


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> V Clokellys Lagos pedigree information - German shepherd dog
> 
> I *think* this is the dog.


Bloody cruel that is! heres me with an 11 yr old Goldie that is progressively getting like that dog on his back end, Im spending gawd knows how much on treatment for him and those people are "breeding" it into their dogs!!!
Makes me so mad!!!!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Open bitch winner/reserve bitch cc look at her walking :
Mascani German Shepherds

Bitch cc winner
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/594929.html


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> Open bitch winner look at her walking :
> Mascani German Shepherds


she looks awful, but to be fair, her hip score is pretty good.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

A low hip score is great but still I would prefer to have a dog that can walk properly and has a good score


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> A low hip score is great but still I would prefer to have a dog that can walk properly and has a good score


of course. i hate how gsds look and i want them all to have straight backs. i personally was expecting her hip score to be awful, so was suprised.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I don't think the roach backs cause HD and I think it's about the only thing the show breeders work on trying to get the hip scores down


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

As healthy as they may be... it still looks wrong. It appears they are all front, head and forequarters, while the back end is thin, slight and wasted-looking.

The people who prefer that, should be allowed to *if* the dogs are healthy.

But the people who don't like it, *also* deserve a place to say so - and I don't feel its right to say that all GSDs should be that way.

I watched the live streaming of the Group judging and I DID see the judge look at the GSD with a grimace on his face. It was live, there was no time for editing.... I saw him look towards it with distaste.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Needless to say i think all the breeds that have problems should be banned until its all sorted properly. I have believed that for a long time.

I am no fan of Kisko either......

I won't go into it as i have done so many times and i get very cross! I want to stay happy today!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

The point is it isn't healthy the dogs can barely walk and certain aren't "fit for function" could you imagine one of those herding sheep all day or being an actual police/army dog not just doing a bit of bitework, obedience and tracking under a sympathetic judge and then being told they can?


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## GSDlover4ever (Feb 21, 2009)

is this the clip you are talking about~?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Its been removed


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## GSDlover4ever (Feb 21, 2009)

slow motion
YouTube - GSD Movement in slow motion

I'm not ammused!


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## ruth9 (Mar 15, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> I watched the live streaming of the Group judging and I DID see the judge look at the GSD with a grimace on his face. It was live, there was no time for editing.... I saw him look towards it with distaste.


I noticed the judges face too. He asked the handler to move the dog away from him so that he could watch the back end. I agree that you could tell he didn't like what he was seeing. There was no mistaking the grimace.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

That is awful  is that the bob winner? Dogs are meant to walk on their paws


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

GSDlover4ever said:


> slow motion
> YouTube - GSD Movement in slow motion


Let's stay on topic now - that video is *NOT* of this year's BOB winner.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

GSDlover4ever said:


> slow motion
> YouTube - GSD Movement in slow motion
> 
> I'm not ammused!


They just looks to weak in the rear end.

Ive met a fair few GSD's and it seem that when they hit middle age they start to suffer the wobbles and weakness, to the point of having to drag/scuff their hind feet, and when standing, they seem to sway.

They dont seem in pain, although thats hard to judge. Just that they appear unable to support themselves sufficently. Their hind legs are stuck out the back, instead of under them and weight bearing.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

ruth9 said:


> I noticed the judges face too. He asked the handler to move the dog away from him so that he could watch the back end. I agree that you could tell he didn't like what he was seeing. There was no mistaking the grimace.


 I saw the grimace later.... when he was walking the lines to make his final cut, looking at all the dogs and choosing the final 8. Not before.


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## WoodyGSP (Oct 11, 2009)

:mad5::mad5::mad5: That is absolutely disgusting. Well done Clare Balding for pointing it out. I'm disappointed that, with all the "Talk" they did trying to cover their backs after the pedigree dogs exposed scandal, that they didn't do anything about this. If even the judge was grimacing then surely they could have just said actually no-one wins, instead of picking the best out of a bad bunch.

Can anyone post a pic of a nice straight backed GSD now to cheer me up please?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

How about this beautiful dog:
http://www.norsstargermanshepherds.com/Kessy.jpg

East european working lines my favourite type


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

WoodyGSP said:


> If even the judge was grimacing then surely they could have just said actually no-one wins


Whoah - this was the *Group* Judge, choosing from among all the Best of Breeds. Not the GSD judge. There HAS to be a Best of Breed for every breed to go forth to Group, it cannot be withheld.

But once all the Best of Breeds compete for Best Of Group - obviously, many will be passed over as only 4 places are given out of many.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

One of the bitch classes last year was actually thrown out of the ring by the judge as far as I know. But the group judge couldn't really do anything except not place him


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I followed the GSD club VS KC debate for a while. As far as I can tell, the breed clubs were happy with the extreme sloping backs, but still had been pressuring the KC for ages to enforce mandatory health testing (inc hip scoring) which the KC refused to do.

The club's objection was that the KC refused to do anything about problems that were known to affect breed health (ie hip dysplasia etc), but then had the nerve to pick GSDs out in particular for their shape (sloping backs) and criticise the clubs over this - while the clubs claimed that they had never seen a link between sloping bakc and health issues.

I admit I'm on the fence on this one. I do NOT like the exaggerated sloping bakcs and cow hocks, and certainly many show GSD's can't even walk normally.... but for the KC to set on the GSD breed clubs over this - yet allow seriously crippled breeds like the bulldog and peke carry on almost without mention is pretty backward.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

They need to get hold of quite a few breed clubs the bulldog bob didn't look so good either although from the little we saw of the peke it seemed like a nice mover. They shouldn't just be getting at one breed there's a few need serious help


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## WoodyGSP (Oct 11, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> How about this beautiful dog:
> http://www.norsstargermanshepherds.com/Kessy.jpg
> 
> East european working lines my favourite type


:001_tt1:Beautiful. Thanks. 
Were there none like this at crufts? If there was then maybe the judge should be sacked, as this has got to be more healthy.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

WoodyGSP said:


> :001_tt1:Beautiful. Thanks.
> Were there none like this at crufts? If there was then maybe the judge should be sacked, as this has got to be more healthy.


there were some really good dogs at crufts and there have been complaints about the gsd judging....


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm sure there were a few some english types like that do go into the show ring and do quite well. But the judges prefer the west german type aka crippled


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

" no dog shopuld be bred like that ! 

..how about this breed then ?


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

if the KC are saying that it is wrong to breed dogs with roached backs then surely half of all the sight hounds would need to change their conformation - ...take a look at this Itlian Greyhound - how can this be acceptable to the KC andc yet unacceptable for the GSD ? 

you cannot have it both ways -


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Colette said:


> I followed the GSD club VS KC debate for a while. As far as I can tell, the breed clubs were happy with the extreme sloping backs, but still had been pressuring the KC for ages to enforce mandatory health testing (inc hip scoring) which the KC refused to do.
> 
> The club's objection was that the KC refused to do anything about problems that were known to affect breed health (ie hip dysplasia etc), but then had the nerve to pick GSDs out in particular for their shape (sloping backs) and criticise the clubs over this - while the clubs claimed that they had never seen a link between sloping bakc and health issues.
> 
> I admit I'm on the fence on this one. I do NOT like the exaggerated sloping bakcs and cow hocks, and certainly many show GSD's can't even walk normally.... but for the KC to set on the GSD breed clubs over this - yet allow seriously crippled breeds like the bulldog and peke carry on almost without mention is pretty backward.


Absolutely agree.

It makes me question the integrity of these breeders (not just the GSD fraternity), who will continue breeding to such standards knowing the health implications!

I know that this will not be a popular remark, but the general public could do more by boycotting Crufts until something is done right across the board.

I appreciate that by doing so, this will hit the activities that have nothing whatsoever to do with the show ring, but surely if it is for the good of the breeds, it must be worth it!


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Bijou said:


> if the KC are saying that it is wrong to breed dogs with roached backs then surely half of all the sight hounds would need to change their conformation - ...take a look at this Itlian Greyhound - how can this be acceptable to the KC andc yet unacceptable for the GSD ?
> 
> you cannot have it both ways -


That structure is advantageous for a galloping breed.

Problem with the GSD isn't just the back, the rear angulation is unbalanced with the front and the second thigh is much longer than the forearm which forces the hocks down.


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## leopard_print (Mar 8, 2009)

I cannot believe they want Kisko sacked, she was right to say what she said, it sets my teeth on edge to see those GSD's, its gradually got worse and worse over the years. However they should not be picking on just one breed, there are a few others they need to look closely at.

Where can I register my SUPPORT for Kisko?


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

leopard_print said:


> I cannot believe they want Kisko sacked, she was right to say what she said, it sets my teeth on edge to see those GSD's, its gradually got worse and worse over the years. However they should not be picking on just one breed, there are a few others they need to look closely at.
> 
> Where can I register my SUPPORT for Kisko?


The prob with what she said is that she singled out one particular dog and slated him, one who has excellent health results. I dont think it would have mattered if she was talking about the breed in general but she wasnt. To single out one dog from everybody else including other breeds that have far worse health problems is the reason that people are annoyed at her.

not sure where you can register your support but ill have a look x


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> Needless to say i think all the breeds that have problems should be banned until its all sorted properly. I have believed that for a long time.
> 
> I am no fan of Kisko either......


Agreed.

Neither am I, and if I start explaining why I'll spoil my day too lol.........


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

cutekiaro1 said:


> The prob with what she said is that she singled out one particular dog and slated him, one who has excellent health results. I dont think it would have mattered if she was talking about the breed in general but she wasnt. To single out one dog from everybody else including other breeds that have far worse health problems is the reason that people are annoyed at her.
> 
> not sure where you can register your support but ill have a look x


it would have been annoying for the owner but the dog looked so horrendous it was a good example to show on tv as anyone seeing it would realise what she was talking about. Maybe it was a wrong call but it put the message across. How on earth can such an awful example of a DOG do well in the show ring. They are a working breed and there are plenty of lines that produce good solid sound working dogs, why on earth would anyone have had the idea to breed a thing like that.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I think the idea is to get a good reach of stride which they do have but at an awful cost. It says they should have it in the standard. So when the show judges started placing dogs with a little bit of a bend then the breeders who are just chasing awards rather than actually breeding for healthy "functional" dogs started breeding them to be more and more extreme


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> I think the idea is to get a good reach of stride which they do have but at an awful cost. It says they should have it in the standard. So when the show judges started placing dogs with a little bit of a bend then the breeders who are just chasing awards rather than actually breeding for healthy "functional" dogs started breeding them to be more and more extreme


But my poodle has an incredible reach of stride and a straight back. She weighs 5 kgs and she can pace behind fast trotting ponies and not brake stride. Her back legs really drive. If she had a sloping back I cant imagine she would drive any better and she would be putting an unnatural strain on her hips.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

They don't have better drive the working lines have much better. They've just become worse and worse because the judges or a lot of them seem to prefer the sloping back so the breeders just make them worse.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> That structure is advantageous for a galloping breed.


...so ...breeding a deliberately roached back is OK for some breeds ?- why should that be if we are saying that this type of topline is detrimental to a dogs health ?...and hocks ?- come on folks have you stood behind a Bassett or a Neopolitan Mastiff or indeed some of the Setter breeds when young ? every bit as loose and 'unnatural' as the GSD - don't get me wrong - owning BSD I am saddened by the way that their cousins the GSD has developed but the KC MUST be fair here - if it's wrong for one breed then it just has to be wrong for all - no ?

take another look at the rear angulation on that Italian Greyhound picture I've posted - how is this OK according to the KC ? is it not just as unnatutral as the low hocks of the Germanic type of GSD ?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

It doesn't seem to affect them the way it affects the gsds who are a trotting breed whereas the sighthounds are galloping breeds. They don't seem to have the weakness that the gsds do.


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

Bijou said:


> ...so ...breeding a deliberately roached back is OK for some breeds ?- why should that be if we are saying that this type of topline is detrimental to a dogs health ?...and hocks ?- come on folks have you stood behind a Bassett or a Neopolitan Mastiff or indeed some of the Setter breeds when young ? every bit as loose and 'unnatural' as the GSD - don't get me wrong - owning BSD I am saddened by the way that their cousins the GSD has developed but the KC MUST be fair here - if it's wrong for one breed then it just has to be wrong for all - no ?
> 
> take another look at the rear angulation on that Italian Greyhound picture I've posted - how is this OK according to the KC ? is it not just as unnatutral as the low hocks of the Germanic type of GSD ?


Good post


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> It doesn't seem to affect them the way it affects the gsds who are a trotting breed whereas the sighthounds are galloping breeds. They don't seem to have the weakness that the gsds do.


so it's not 'unhealthy then to have a roached back ? ...it just causes 'unnatural movement' in the GSD - well what about the 'unnatural movement of the Chow ( stilted ) ? of the OES ( rolling ) ? of the Min Pin ( Hackneyed ) ? and lets face it you'd be hard pressed to get ANY type of movement from the Peke !!

if the KC say that *all *breeds should have the construction of Canaan Dogs and the moveement of BSD then fair enough - but they hav'nt they've just singled out one breed ( the one with the bolshiest owners and exhibitors ??? ) and are acting like bully boys.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I don't like the chow movement either tbh or the bulldogs and pekingeses. They shouldn't be singling out one breed there's a lot that need a lot of work and some that are fine the bsds seem to be one where there are little faults within the breed.

Can I ask though whats wrong with the minpins movement?


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Reading these threads just reinforces my feelings that the KC are doing very little to prevent this horrendous faults in modern breeds.

Having also had working GSD's I am appalled by the difference in the show lines and my poor dog is a typical example! The Lab is another. If you see both the working Labs against the show breeds they could almost have come down a different evolutionary path!

I doubt that my GSD will make old bones, but we try to help him lead a normal and happylife.


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

Bijou said:


> ...so ...breeding a deliberately roached back is OK for some breeds ?- why should that be if we are saying that this type of topline is detrimental to a dogs health ?...and hocks ?- come on folks have you stood behind a Bassett or a Neopolitan Mastiff or indeed some of the Setter breeds when young ? every bit as loose and 'unnatural' as the GSD - don't get me wrong - owning BSD I am saddened by the way that their cousins the GSD has developed but the KC MUST be fair here - if it's wrong for one breed then it just has to be wrong for all - no ?
> 
> take another look at the rear angulation on that Italian Greyhound picture I've posted - how is this OK according to the KC ? is it not just as unnatutral as the low hocks of the Germanic type of GSD ?


I totally agree here. This is what I was trying to get across. Every breed has its faults but its the GSD that always seems to be singled out WHY??. What about the bull dog & the pug that can barely breathe and the shar pei that have to have eye lids tacked because of the wrinkles (people like the wrinkles so its ok to breed them like that) but its somehow hardly ever mentioned, surely this is far worse health issues and should also be addressed along with the GSD and many many other breeds.

I think any breed that has severe health problems should be banned from the ring as this only encourages people to keep breeding the so called faults into the dogs as these are the ones that always get placed.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I agree maybe not ban them but penalise the faults. No wait
Any tendency towards over-angulation of hindquarters, weak hocks, cow hocks or sickle hooks, is to be heavily penalised as this reduces firmness and endurance in movement.

Didn't work so well did it. Then again I think it used to say roach backs were a fault.

I agree though they do need to seriously sort out a lot of the breeds but the breeders either worringly see no problem with dogs that can breathe or walk properly and say they can or just don't care if the poor things win them awards


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> I agree maybe not ban them but penalise the faults. No wait
> Any tendency towards over-angulation of hindquarters, weak hocks, cow hocks or sickle hooks, is to be heavily penalised as this reduces firmness and endurance in movement.
> 
> Didn't work so well did it. Then again I think it used to say roach backs were a fault.
> ...


I really dont understand why the health problems of other breeds are not brought up more.
This might be way off but I wonder if is because they are very expensive breeds to buy and the breeders will have far more work cut out for them if they are to sell any pups that are totally 100% healthy.

Ie
Bull dog
Pug
Shar Pei
CKC
Chi


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

cutekiaro1 said:


> The prob with what she said is that she singled out one particular dog and slated him, one who has excellent health results. I dont think it would have mattered if she was talking about the breed in general but she wasnt. To single out one dog from everybody else including other breeds that have far worse health problems is the reason that people are annoyed at her.
> 
> not sure where you can register your support but ill have a look x


i think that the debates opens up for all to see all that is wrong with the KC and how it moves soooo painfully slow in putting a plug on this shame of unhealthy pedigree dogs either genetically or for conformation....
if that particular dog is wrong (as he clearly is without needing an expert eye..) and then it wins then it's only fair to speak out for that dog in particular and against the judges that have allowed him to win!!!... he might have passed all the health test (both the fake ones and the good ones...) and end up crippled because that gait is definitely not natural...as a dog should walk on paws not slouch about and twist the thigh at every pace.... and winning any title at all will mean that he's going on mating with all "approved" bitches for a hefty stud fee producing the next generation of crippled GSD....with good hip and elbow scores but not fit for purpose....
that, in my opinion is unjustifiable by any stretch of imagination...
i guess behind this rant i can spot my real reason why i left and been out ever since all breeds and kennel clubs...this shame was firstly denounced and found a rubber wall to bounce us off....

at least, in this occasion, someone higher up in the organisation has spoken out...but the breed fanciers call for a sack???
mhmmmm
what does it tell you???

best
D


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I think the reason the GSD are brought up more is because they're always in the spotlight for one reason or another and they're one of the most popular breeds.

Everything has to start somewhere. If changes are made within the GSD breed then hopefully it will branch out and change all the breeds that need to be changed.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

You forgot pekingese they can barely walk or breathe with the bow legs, no face and huge coat. Maybe they aren't as big as gsds although bulldogs are but there was horror at the thought they were changing the bulldog standard I mean they're ruining our national symbol. I'd rather have a national symbol that could breathe and walk but maybe thats just me


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> ..they do need to start putting much better dogs forward the bulldog was practically obese.


hey, nicky! :--) 
i agree, the Bulldog was a lard-lump, but there was lots of company - 
the Choc-Lab that everyone was so delighted to see finish (his color is a recessive; maybe prejudice, too) 
looked like an ox, blocky, bulky + ill-defined; his shoulders were very rounded, with no visible layback.

still-photo + video here - 
Rhymsglo Labrador Retrievers | Facebook

whether either the Bulldog or choc-Lab were otherwise good dogs was almost impossible to say, 
buried under all that flab-upholstery.  better dogs, yes - but better CONDITION, too.

a Lab should not resemble a Greyhound, but by DoG, the Lab should not look like a Belgian-Blue bull or cow, either. 
Doobybrain.com | Belgian Blue 
a fellow Pos-R-trainer and breeder of Labs in the USA (kay of webfoot labs) had a FIFTEEN-Pound difference between her dog in ring-condition, and the same bitch in fit-to-hunt condition for trials. IMO this is simply insane - padding-out a dog in order to satisfy ring-standards?!  nuts.

frustrated, 
--- terry


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Wow I didn't realise he was so fat .


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

dimkaz said:


> i think that the debates opens up for all to see all that is wrong with the KC and how it moves soooo painfully slow in putting a plug on this shame of unhealthy pedigree dogs either genetically or for conformation....
> if that particular dog is wrong (as he clearly is without needing an expert eye..) and then it wins then it's only fair to speak out for that dog in particular and for against the judges that have allowed him to win!!!... he might have passed all the health test (both the fake ones and the good ones...) and end up crippled because that gait is definitely not natural...as a dog should walk on paws not slouch about and twist the thigh at every pace.... and winning any title at all will mean that he's going on mating with all "approved" bitches for a hefty stud fee producing the next generation of crippled GSD....with good hip and elbow scores but not fit for purpose....
> that, in my opinion is unjustifiable by any stretch of imagination...
> i guess behind this rant i can spot my real reason why i left and been out ever since all breeds and kennel clubs...this shame was firstly denounced and found a rubber wall to bounce us off....
> ...


O here we go again....I think it is a bit slanderous to comment about a particular dog and bring into the conversation about "fake" health tests and good health tests.

The dog in question has had all relevant health tests with good results. If it was a dog that won BOB and hadn't had health tests then everyone would be whinging then. But now even with a dog that has been tested it is now mentioned "fake" tests. This is totally wrong and out of order in my eyes.

I do not agree with the roach back but the breed should have a gentle slope, if you read the breed standards there are many breeds that do not have a level topline but it is always the GSD that is knocked.

How about the American cocker? A sloped topline is required for them. They are almost as sloped (not roached) as the GSD but no one slates them.

And as to the comments of not being able to walk? What these dogs "trot" round the house ...er dont think so.

I was at a show recently where a young Bracco was being shown. It had the most dreadful back end. Knitting all ovr the place. It was a young dog so will hopefully strenghen as it matures to adulthood. Obviously controlled exercise had been put in place being a large dog.

Were people whinging about this dog? no...but if it were a young GSD in the ring you can imagine the talk around the ring.

Yes improvement needs to be put in place. But a shepherd is not meant to have a level topline the same as many many breeds.

But going back to the original quoted statement about "false" health tests I feel is totally uncalled for.


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## lucysnewmum (Feb 25, 2010)

found this by going round the houses and cross linking.... thought you might like a read if you havent already seen it. am keeping my opinions to myself because i didnt see the show...didnt see the interview....and it wouldnt be right to comment.
CRUFTS 2010 - RUINED


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Seriously it's xenophobia that makes that a bad dog? Not the fact it was half crippled and jumpy and nervous. I've seen clips of the show gsds doing long gaiting around tracks etc collapsing afterwards. Yet they used it as a reason these dogs were fit for function in the commentary. I'm sure not all do


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> Seriously it's xenophobia that makes that a bad dog? Not the fact it was half crippled and jumpy and nervous. I've seen clips of the show gsds doing long gaiting around tracks etc collapsing afterwards. Yet they used it as a reason these dogs were fit for function in the commentary. I'm sure not all do


Nicky, where have you seen these dogs doing this gaiting around tracks until they drop???

Most certainly not over here I think. Have you actually attended a show over here?

The GSD rings as with other large breeds are far too small most of the time to even get a good gait going!.

What shows have you actually witnessed thid happening and these dogs being half crippled and collapsing?

Its ok for people to slate and backlash something if they have personally witnessed this but not through hearsay.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Not until they drop but at the end of it they seem to fall onto the grass. Yes it was in videos and not all dogs. Sieger show videos I think


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> Not until they drop but at the end of it they seem to fall onto the grass. Yes it was in videos and not all dogs. Sieger show videos I think


so not "collapsed" and not over here !!!

It would never happen over here. I cant comment on what happens in other countries because I haven't seen it with my own eyes but there are many things that happen outside of the Uk that us over here disagree with in life.

But here we are talking about GSD's and the kennel club in the UK

I have kept quiet regarding all your comments whenever show GSDs are bought up but it seems to me that some of them are based on hearsay and not seen through your own eyes.

Why not take a trip to one of the Champ shows over here and see that these shepherds are not like you describe.

Yes there are some over exaggerated dogs and yes the kennel club needs to sort this but the majority are middle of the road or gentle sloped.

By looking into You Tube or on germanic/american sites you cannot comment on the English show scene if you have not seen these dogs in the flesh.

Comments like half crippled, bad hips, collapsing and not being able to walk is not a good comment to make when you hav not witnessed this yourself.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I know there are some fantastic gsds in the show ring


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lucysnewmum said:


> found this by going round the houses and cross linking.... thought you might like a read if you havent already seen it.
> CRUFTS 2010 - RUINED


hmmmm, new-mum?  this is the SAME public-letter in post #1?! 
:lol: full circle + we went nowhere?


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## DerbyMerc (Dec 1, 2009)

deb53 said:


> s
> By looking into You Tube or on germanic/american sites you cannot comment on the English show scene if you have not seen these dogs in the flesh.
> 
> Comments like half crippled, bad hips, collapsing and not being able to walk is not a good comment to make when you hav not witnessed this yourself.


I didn't see the GSD in the flesh but the TV footage didn't look good. Are you saying that the footage was in some way misleading ?


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

DerbyMerc said:


> I didn't see the GSD in the flesh but the TV footage didn't look good. Are you saying that the footage was in some way misleading ?


I am replying to the comments of collapsing, half crippled and unable to walk.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

DFS Crufts 2010 - BOB German Shepherd Dog (Alsatian) on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

harrumph, errrmm, lovely dog?  i rest my case.  where is his right-rear hock? 
plumb-line under the dog? Noooooo... to stand beneath the slanted-roof of the spine, 
the hock-point is <--- in <--- and his right-rear Paw is ----> Out!

that right-rear paw is a minimum of 6 to 8-inches to the right of his hock-point. 
how can U explain such a bizarre deviation?

a dogs legs whether fore or hind, are anatomically designed to go Up + Down - 
Not ---> in <--- and <--- out ---> WHILE going up and down. 
they fold and extend; they are not meant to rotate.

he is also so narrow in his forechest, i doubt that i could lay my palm from pinky to index finger 
between his forepaws - FYI i wear a size-8 glove and am female, my knuckles are 3.75-inches across.

video of the 2008 Crufts BOB Shepherd candidates - 
YouTube - German Shepherd half dog half frog 
watch the dogs rear as each walks away, and tell me that is normal movement?

his GRANDsire: 2008 Crufts GSD - VA1 Zamp vom Thermodos - born 2002
YouTube - VA1 Zamp vom Thermodos at Crufts 2008 
theres a reason why most of their POV is chest to ears, and face-on... 
his rear is awful, see 1:10 to 1:30 and the last peek *profile* shot at 2:07.

other breeds that have grown exaggerated (according to ovcharkasuk) 
YouTube - Dog breeds that have changed over the last 100 years

V4 Antilli Axel Sch H2 KKl1 from the Irish Sieger 2008 
YouTube - V4 Antilli Axel Sch H2 KKl1

i am sorry - i have a link to audio-interviews - 
Crufts presented by the Kennel Club 
altho i listened to 3 interviews with *KISKO* she only mentioned the pastoral group coming up in one, and Shepherds in general in another. there was NOTHING about this years BOB - maybe someone else can find it?

all my best, 
--- terry


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Don't be silly Terry there is absolutely nothing wrong with those dogs they are entirely functional . Those poor dogs. Zamp is a gorgeous dog until you get to the fact that his back end is barely off the floor


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

BBC News - Kennel Club 'failing to do enough for pedigree dogs'

consolation prize - another March 10 interview about genetic health + purebreds.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Crufts dogs to be excluded from competition if judges deem them unfit - Times Online


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Nothing's breedin' changed at Crufts, mate - Times Online 
*bold* underlined and (___) are added below -


> ...at Crufts on Thursday, I overhear *Jeff Sampson, the Kennel Club's genetics adviser, tell one inquirer to the new Crufts Health Zone that the ban on incest matings is "just a PR thing".* Also in the wake of the programme the Kennel Club has revised 78 breed standards - the written descriptions that dictate what a breed should look like. There are 56 changes to the bulldog standard alone - although some are minimal. The bulldog's head must no longer be "large", just "relatively large".
> 
> *A more moderate bulldog does win BOB at Crufts this year, but several very big, very wrinkled, lumbering beasts are awarded with rosettes in clear defiance of the revised breed standard.*
> "The general public just doesn't understand them," insists one exhibitor, who thinks it is okay that most bulldogs are born by Caesarean-section, because after all, "Victoria Beckham has them. They're simply too posh to push", he explains, eyes twinkling.
> ...


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> I know there are some fantastic gsds in the show ring


But you keep repeating the same thing about cripples etc but to also bring up about dogs collapsing? We have also been led to beleive tonight about false health checks. This is all not correct with English lines and many German middle of the road shepherds. And regarding the health vhecks where is the proof in that?



leashedForLife said:


> DFS Crufts 2010 - BOB German Shepherd Dog (Alsatian) on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
> 
> harrumph, errrmm, lovely dog?  i rest my case.  where is his right-rear hock?
> plumb-line under the dog? Noooooo... to stand beneath the slanted-roof of the spine,
> ...


Terry I completely agree with what you are saying and showing here but what I am trying to say is that not all shepherds shown over here are Germanic types (as are sshown here) and that there are some good sound English/ middle of the road types being shown here.

What I do disagree with is all "show" shepherds being tarnished with the cripple allegation. Totally untrue.

And for people to say about false health tests and dogs being unable to walk and being crippled causing them to collapse ...I would like to see the proof of that. It is all gossip and hearsay.

Where are the pics of a good sound English Shepherd? Of course they are not being sought out because then there is nothing to whinge about so lets all go hunting through you tube for the dreadful roached Germanics!!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

deb53 said:


> Where are the pics of a good sound English Shepherd? Of course they are not being sought out because then there is nothing to whinge about so lets all go hunting through you tube for the dreadful roached Germanics!!


pardon me, deb - :huh: 
i have NOT been *hunting for Germanics* - i am in the USA, do not know diddly about any ENGLISH SHEPHERDS except the breed related to Collies, and if YOU want to post pictures of British GSDs, feel free. 

meanwhile, if You know where i can find an audio-clip or a transcript of the infamous interview of *kisko* by *clare balding* please either post a link, or point me there? 
thanks.

back to searching, 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Crufts opens amid controversey - News, Pets - The Independent

heres the opening-day article in the Times with GREAT pictures - sadly the captions are hit + miss. 
pic-8 and pick-18 and pic-31 are all mis-captioned. (but visually nice snaps.)


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Nightline re-exposes pedigree problems | ohmidog!

BTW the photo shown at the TOP is incorrectly captioned at the \/ bottom \/ 
the dog is a Sussex Spaniel, not a Clumber.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

hang on a nano second here folks ...take a look at some of the most popular breeds with the dog buying general public - the Pug tops the Toy group for popularity with registrations soaring over the last few years and the Bulldog is not far behind - Chihuahua's and Shar-peis can easily be found for sale in any Free ad and internet puppy site -and hotly following up in the popularity stakes are breeds such as French Bulldog the Boston terrier and the Chinese Crested - what do they all have in common ?- they are all highly exaggerated deviations from the 'normal' dog shape ...we have to admit that people appear to LIKE the skin folds , flat faces and short stumpy legs that these breeds have - why else don't they seek out breeds such as Elkhounds, or Buhunds or Australian Cattle dogs - all 'dog shaped' free moving moderately angulated and non exaggerated breeds - and veiwed as 'boring' by most puppy buyers ! 

and despite their widely known problems it is the Cavalier that gets chosen over the Tiibetan Spaniel and the GSD that is chosen in preference to the BSD every time - go figure !!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Bijou said:


> hang on a nanosecond... take a look at some of the most popular breeds with the dog buying general public...


i have not been breedist, bijou  
i have posted links about all sorts of breeds + problems, as well as the ONE dog that i saw judged that this thread began discussing - the BOB in the GSD breed, and the BOS / reserve? bitch.

i have posted before about stenotic nares, elongated palates, luxating patellas, dermoid-sinuses, and more - 
some of those issues are also in links above. 
time for bed - good morning, UK  good night to me... 
--- terry


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## Mollydoodle (Mar 10, 2010)

I seen a report on what was said on anova forum and was discusted but the poor GSD didnt sound very good healthwise and I felt sorry for it. Do think the way it was done was wrong tho


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

Bijou said:


> hang on a nano second here folks ...take a look at some of the most popular breeds with the dog buying general public - the Pug tops the Toy group for popularity with registrations soaring over the last few years and the Bulldog is not far behind - Chihuahua's and Shar-peis can easily be found for sale in any Free ad and internet puppy site -and hotly following up in the popularity stakes are breeds such as French Bulldog the Boston terrier and the Chinese Crested - what do they all have in common ?- they are all highly exaggerated deviations from the 'normal' dog shape ...we have to admit that people appear to LIKE the skin folds , flat faces and short stumpy legs that these breeds have - why else don't they seek out breeds such as Elkhounds, or Buhunds or Australian Cattle dogs - all 'dog shaped' free moving moderately angulated and non exaggerated breeds - and veiwed as 'boring' by most puppy buyers !
> 
> and despite their widely known problems it is the Cavalier that gets chosen over the Tiibetan Spaniel and the GSD that is chosen in preference to the BSD every time - go figure !!


Cavaliers and GSD's are much more readily available in Britain, GSD's are also very trainable, give the owner a feeling of protection, and are popular for dog sports, they are all round brilliant dogs and I don't think Elkhounds, or Buhunds or Australian Cattle dogs will fill the roll.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Bijou said:


> hang on a nano second here folks ...take a look at some of the most popular breeds with the dog buying general public - the Pug tops the Toy group for popularity with registrations soaring over the last few years and the Bulldog is not far behind - Chihuahua's and Shar-peis can easily be found for sale in any Free ad and internet puppy site -and hotly following up in the popularity stakes are breeds such as French Bulldog the Boston terrier and the Chinese Crested - what do they all have in common ?- they are all highly exaggerated deviations from the 'normal' dog shape ...we have to admit that people appear to LIKE the skin folds , flat faces and short stumpy legs that these breeds have - why else don't they seek out breeds such as Elkhounds, or Buhunds or Australian Cattle dogs - all 'dog shaped' free moving moderately angulated and non exaggerated breeds - and veiwed as 'boring' by most puppy buyers !
> 
> and despite their widely known problems it is the Cavalier that gets chosen over the Tiibetan Spaniel and the GSD that is chosen in preference to the BSD every time - go figure !!


Those are far rarer breeds though and in some cases much harder to handle a cavalier is very easy to train in comparison to say a tibetan spaniel and bsds can be harder than gsds. I prefer the normal looking dogs anyway. ACDs are certainly capable of most of the things gsds do but are quite a bit more stubborn

English gsds
Aaronby German Shepherds - HOME
Gorgeous dogs theres some that do well in the show ring but the judges seem to prefer the west german lines


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Nicky10 said:


> English gsds
> Aaronby German Shepherds - HOME
> Gorgeous dogs theres some that do well in the show ring but the judges seem to prefer the west german lines


I agree and issue is that its all depending on the judge what type of gsd is doing well in the ring. Some shows its not even worth attending with an english type gsd if u know what type of judge is judging the event.

The show type gsd do get placed far more often than an english type and thats a shame... i really hoped for some improvement at crufts judging this year but was a real disappointment.

I just dont get why the kc just cant sort out the judges placing those dogs ...


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## Lucysmom (Feb 13, 2009)

there are a few people breeding British Type German Shepherds with nice straight healthy backs. trouble is they get nowhere in the showring. sometimes they might get a place, but being champions its a noshow.

My aunts friend breeds them and recently I heard her say that prehaps she should have gone for the more german shape. (poor thing the tide is turning now)

I think the big fuss over german shepherds rather than pugs, and spaniels is that they are a big dog and its so noticable. the general dog owning public notice that sloping back and see it as wrong. when they look at a pug with its pushed in nose they dont see it as abnormal.

strange but very daft.

all I can hope is that soon this muddle over looks over health can be resolved to the benifit of all dogs, owners and kennel club

hugs

Rachel and the gang


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

Lucysmom said:


> I think the big fuss over german shepherds rather than pugs, and spaniels is that they are a big dog and its so noticable. the general dog owning public notice that sloping back and see it as wrong. when they look at a pug with its pushed in nose they dont see it as abnormal.


I think it is also because people here are much more familiar with "Alsatians" than with pugs etc. When I was a child, "Alsatians" tended to be the only actual pedigree dogs you saw on the street. All the others were mongrels. Because GSD's have changed so much over the past 40 years, they are much more noticeable. As a teenager I worked as a kennel boy for an old lady who bred German Shepherds and her dogs were straight backed, tall and incredibly healthy. I remember she had 3 or 4 dogs in her kennel between the ages of 15 and 20 - none with HD or movement issues and all fit and happy. The transition between "Alsatian" and "German Sloping Dog" is one that the general public finds difficult to cope with.

Mick


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

The KC needs a sacrificial lamb to bolster their 'healthier' image. I suspect the GSD breeders may be that lamb because they make themselves an easy target.

Not an edifying display from either party.


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

deb53 said:


> And for people to say about false health tests and dogs being unable to walk and being crippled causing them to collapse ...I would like to see the proof of that. It is all gossip and hearsay.
> 
> Where are the pics of a good sound English Shepherd? Of course they are not being sought out because then there is nothing to whinge about so lets all go hunting through you tube for the dreadful roached Germanics!!


right! i guess you are banging on what i said....if it offends your sense of decency i would apologise for mentioning the fact that HD screening is useless unless ALL dogs are screened and the little improvement on the scores is just fictional. to back up "my" claim: the BVA states that ALL dogs should be screened for the scheme to have any significance. a 2009 report by two of the UK leading vet/geneticists state that the improvement seen on paper and advertised by the KC as a success story, is just a fake smoke in the eyes sort of "news"...strangely enough, the KC was part of the funding consortium behind said report, but there is no trace of it in the KC website (that i can found) ...i have a copy of that report somewhere in my machine...
moreover...regarding inbreeding or as is commonly known by the "professionals": line breeding is assessed by a coefficient....which change dramatically just by adding or removing one specimen from the calculation (i.e. by fiddling with numbers one can mask, legitimately, the "common sire effect" that is one of the major causes of inbreeding....).
i can continue with "uncalled for" issues...but then i am "biased"...the fact that i was awarded a phd some 7 years ago (in social sciences...mind you) and i have been working for over a decade (14 years to be precise) on science and technology issues, that i constantly consult with geneticists, the medical profession both for matters regarding my daily job and my hobby (breeding and caring of molosser-type dogs)... doesn't mean anything compared to an experienced breeder of a show-breeder-fancier that mates relatives because "they know what they are doing" being expert breeders and knowing the lines inside-out ...of course....
i would invite all the so called experts to do a bit of proper studying...there are many proper scientific papers out there churned out regularly in medical, veterinary and genetic reviews....publishing and discussing the work of many scientists that have devoted their lives to understanding the mechanisms of genetics and the implications for the life of animals 9including humans) and the interaction with shape/conformation and the environment...and are systematically ignored by organisations that promote the "well being" of those animals....in the name of a standard or an agreement with the breed'sclub...or whatever they say to justify their shameful conduct!

my rant stops here...
i am kinda getting a bit fed up of having to justify such evident truths that have been studied for yearsas i were a bleeeping scaremonger liar whose place is in the gutters! ...the evidence is out there and accessible by anybody ... have the common sense to go and look for it and act accordingly...only then one can say that "i did what was scientifically considered best for my 4legged friend..." otherwise it's just a pure excuse for a shameful conduct!

cheers
D


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

leashedForLife said:


> DFS Crufts 2010 - BOB German Shepherd Dog (Alsatian) on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
> 
> harrumph, errrmm, lovely dog?  i rest my case.  where is his right-rear hock?
> plumb-line under the dog? Noooooo... to stand beneath the slanted-roof of the spine,
> ...


That video moved me to tears  I now know why I would NEVER attend a show ring and proves my point that these darn competition are geared to the owners of these deformed dogs.

Why can't we interact with our dogs in a joyous manner instead of parading them around a bl...y ring being poked and prodded by some idiot with a clip board.

I also find it insulting to call a German Shepherd Dog an Alsation. That is NOT their proper name, just one given to them by us to prevent predujice after the first world war


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

Nina said:


> I also find it insulting to call a German Shepherd Dog an Alsation. That is NOT their proper name, just one given to them by us to prevent predujice after the first world war


You'll have to forgive me for being insulting then. For the first 40 years of my life I never came across anyone (other than breeders) who called them anything but Alsatians. Political correctness is bad enough when applied to people, let alone dogs!!

Mick


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2010)

I have to say that all relavant health tests have been carried on these german shepherds with good low hip scores but to me thats not the issue, everyone always bangs on bout how unhealthy they are but the point is the level of slope has been taken to far and the whole gait of the shep is all wrong to look at i find it very uncomfortable i think ohhh that shep is beautiful front face end then look at rear and its just very unpleasing to the eye and i hate the way when in show they pull the rear leg back further into position allot of sheps feel very uncomfortable when being shown and relent to this position and look worse.
Allot of sheps in show will drag there toes this is not healthy imho the way they run is very strange.
I have been round sheps all my life grew up with them and have owned them for 20yrs the point is a gentle slope is fine and part of breed standard but in my opinion they have taken it way to far now and something should be done about this before it becomes the norm!!!!


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Nina said:


> That video moved me to tears  I now know why I would NEVER attend a show ring and proves my point that these darn competition are geared to the owners of these deformed dogs.
> 
> Why can't we interact with our dogs in a joyous manner instead of parading them around a bl...y ring being poked and prodded by some idiot with a clip board.
> 
> I also find it insulting to call a German Shepherd Dog an Alsation. That is NOT their proper name, just one given to them by us to prevent predujice after the first world war


So you don't think any dog should be shown?


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

charlie n rio said:


> ..... but the point is the level of slope has been taken to far and the whole gait of the shep is all wrong to look at i find it very uncomfortable i think ohhh that shep is beautiful front face end then look at rear and its just very unpleasing to the eye....


This is what bothers me too, healthy or not, it just doesn't _look_ right to me in the sense of balance and proportion.

The hind end looks narrow and wasted, when really the back-end muscles of a dog should be firm and well-developed to drive the hind legs forward. You never see champion show-jumping or steeplechase horses with poorly-muscled back ends.

The Shepherds look all front and nothing else like the front is now pulling the back along - which in some cases I guess it must be, if the hindquarters are loose, wobbly and cow-hocked.

Even other breeds with roached backs and/or a great deal of angulation - and yes even the bulldog, pug, shar-pei etc - still stand four-square and firm on all four feet, moving well and in a parallel manner.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2010)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nina 
That video moved me to tears I now know why I would NEVER attend a show ring and proves my point that these darn competition are geared to the owners of these deformed dogs. 

Why can't we interact with our dogs in a joyous manner instead of parading them around a bl...y ring being poked and prodded by some idiot with a clip board.

I also find it insulting to call a German Shepherd Dog an Alsation. That is NOT their proper name, just one given to them by us to prevent predujice after the first world war 

^^^^^^^^^^

Nothing wrong with the name alsation this is what my whole family called the breed yrs ago.
And yes it was to do with the whole war senario so what i say it was rite at the time!!!


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> The KC needs a sacrificial lamb to bolster their 'healthier' image. I suspect the GSD breeders may be that lamb because they make themselves an easy target.


...exactly !!! ..the GSD world has constantly, vociferously and publically called for the KC to make health testing compulsory - I believe that this is the KC's way of getting back at them - of course it could all back fire - the FCI is already in Ireland it is entirely possible for them to set up Seiger shows for the GSD folk here in the UK ( closely followed by general FCI shows where instead of CC's all breeds will campaign for CAC and CACIB 's)

it's an unedifying sight watching the KC bullying a single breed in such a blatant way - their stance is illogical given that many other breeds have issues at least as bad ( if not worse) -either they say that all breeds that move unsoundly are banned form the ring ( and the worst in my experience is the Neo Mastiff and the Bassett - both WAY worse than the GSD ! ) but also illogical in that if they truly believe that health is the priority then they HAVE to make health testing compulsory - a prime example of the illogicality of their approach is that *good *breeders have to pay extra to register ( the ABS fee ) - at the very least they should charge all those who do no testing etc twice as much as 'good' breeders when registering their pups .


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

Bijou said:


> ...exactly !!! ..the GSD world has constantly, vociferously and publically called for the KC to make health testing compulsory - I believe that this is the KC's way of getting back at them


GSD breeders have made themselves an easy target because they insist on breeding bloody awful dogs. It doesn't make the KC's stance any more logical but lets not pass off the breeders, whose dogs are almost reduced to walking on their knees, as martyrs to the cause of healthy breeding.



> - of course it could all back fire -


Depends on what the KC is trying to achieve. If they are seeking the largest possible income then, yes, it may backfire (although I think it would not) but if they are seeking to improve the average standard of their members then seeing the lesser breeders leave could only be a good thing.



> it's an unedifying sight watching the KC bullying a single breed in such a blatant way - their stance is illogical given that many other breeds have issues at least as bad ( if not worse)


The KC's approach is lacking in consistency but the sight of breeders applauding this



>


above this



>


is also unedifying.



> ...if they truly believe that health is the priority then they HAVE to make health testing compulsory


Well, yes. I would agree. _*If*_.

Given that they have not done so and have said they will not do so, what are we left to conclude?



> - a prime example of the illogicality of their approach is that *good *breeders have to pay extra to register ( the ABS fee )


Good breeders do not "have to" join the ABS and there is little benefit for them to do so. The ABS is a marketing tool and the best breeders have little need to market their dogs.



> - at the very least they should charge all those who do no testing etc twice as much as 'good' breeders when registering their pups .


Make extra profit from poor breeders? I don't think that would help the KC's efforts towards self-improvement. lol

Should lousy electricians still get registered if they pay twice the fees to their organisations?  Bad breeding is bad breeding and should have no place within an organisation that proclaims itself as a guardian of canine welfare.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

charlie n rio said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Nina
> That video moved me to tears  I now know why I would NEVER attend a show ring and proves my point that these darn competition are geared to the owners of these deformed dogs.
> 
> ...


It is NOT their correct name. I only know of a couple of people who call them Alsations, and they both thought they were a different breed to the German Shepherd Dog!


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I don't find it insulting but the breed name IS German Shepherd 

Ha ignore me. Little drunk here


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## kirksandallchins (Nov 3, 2007)

In the UK the breed name is German Shepherd Dog (Alsatian). 

The Alsatian name has been used here since World War One - but even a lot off younger people call them Alsatians.

Neither the show type "German" GSD or the Alsatian are correct according to current breed standards - maybe dog breeders and judges should made to take (and pass) a reading test


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2010)

Nina said:


> It is NOT their correct name. I only know of a couple of people who call them Alsations, and they both thought they were a different breed to the German Shepherd Dog!


Lets rewind time yeah they were referred to being called Alsations for a very long time even when i was growing up and i still have people say that to me now they even think the german shepherd and alsation are two different breeds which is obviously not the case!!! 
These are the facts below.

The breed was named Deutscher Schäferhund by Von Stephanitz, literally translating to "German Shepherd Dog". The breed was so named due its original purpose of assisting shepherds in herding and protecting sheep. At the time, all other herding dogs in Germany were referred to by this name; they thus became known as Altdeutsche Schäferhunde or Old German Shepherd Dogs. Shepherds were first exported to Britain in 1908, and the UK Kennel Club began to recognise the breed in 1919.

The direct translation of the name was adopted for use in the official breed registry; however, at the conclusion of World War I, it was believed that the inclusion of the word "German" would harm the breed's popularity,[12] due to the anti-German sentiment of the era.[13] The breed was officially renamed by the UK Kennel Club to "Alsatian Wolf Dog"[a][12] which was also adopted by many other international kennel clubs. Eventually, the appendage "wolf dog" was dropped.[12] The name Alsatian remained for five decades,[12] until 1977, when successful campaigns by dog enthusiasts pressured the British kennel clubs to allow the breed to be registered again as German Shepherd Dogs.[2]


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

RIN TIN TIN Pedigree


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Those are beautiful dogs :001_wub: how they should be


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## michaelasi (Oct 29, 2009)

I just read the history , gosh what a beautiful journey


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> RIN TIN TIN Pedigree


Wow, the legend lives on


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

i think \/--- this ---\/ is a handsome bitch... :001_tt1: 
The Manor of Mixed Blessings » zille

i also think the events are often flat-out funny, as when the cat either opened the 3.5-foot dog-gate, 
or the dog levitated over it soundlessly into the bedroom :lol: but could not remember how to get back out... :laugh:... 
and the Human-Leader is flat on her back, half-awake and incoherent, wondering what the H*** is happening... 
sounds all too familiar 

enjoy, 
--- terry


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## Mollydoodle (Mar 10, 2010)

I did see the interview but agree that the dog was in a bad state skeletally(?) but then meny of the GSDs shown at crufts all have badly sloping backs due to HD and ova conditions so is it just that the GSD owners who show feel they are being picked on? can they not see how bad their dogs are compared to wot they shud look like?


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

The GSD breed standard UK states "*German Shepherd Dog (Alsation)*"

A guy who used to show GSDs back in the 70's told me breeders started to go for the look of being "ready to pounce" an the judges liked it, so most continued down this path, meaing in my eyes all involved are to blame here! 

To stick up for the KC (not the judges) are excerpts from the breed standard
*
and working ability never sacrificed for mere beauty.

Absolute soundness of movement essential..

Weak, soft and roach backs undesirable and should be heavily penalised.

Any tendency towards over-angulation of hindquarters, weak hocks, cow hocks or sickle hooks, is to be heavily penalised as this reduces firmness and endurance in movement.*

_Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree and its effect upon the health and welfare of the dog._

We have to start somewhere and the bulldogs are already taking steps to make the breed healthier while the GSD clique are being dragged kicking and screaming 

ALL breeds have faults and illnesses as do humans, as responsible owners and breeders is it not up to us to try and help in any way we can???

P.S. whats people's problems with chi's?? Im a former breeder/shower of them myself


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

I think the German Shepard people are being dragged because simply, they are being made a scapegoat of. I hate the look of the german sheperds now - but the majority have good health test results, are fit active dogs ect. The german sheperd people have campaigned for a long time in this country to make health testing essential and it has fallen on deaf ears to the KC. The KC are muppets imho . They're focusing on the gsd's because it's a breed the majority of the joe public do not like the look of anymore and assume there must be some kind of health problem because they watched some hour long documentary. I personally think the kennel club should have started with some really dire breeds - the cavilier for instance . They are trying to get the public on their side. & as for at crufts when they made a big deal out of removing a gsd from the grounds .. the person in question is someone who has been in the breed for years, does every fitness test and health test going .. and the dog? a 5 month old puppy who was there for the KC good citizen parade. Her back legs were a bit wobbly because the owner doesn't excercise them fully until she recieves the results of their health tests to ensure they are fit enough to be properly excercised. Not to mention the owner was rather elderly and very upset to be so rudely removed - she was told to leave the premises immediately. I mean even look at malamutes, an extremely healthy breed in the show ring. In America, where the first breed standard was set, the desirable height is 25inches at the shoulder and weight is 85 pounds. In the Uk seeing as the Kennel Club thought they knew better, the standard is 25 inches MINIMUM to 28 inches with weight being between 85 and 125 pounds for both bitches and dogs . Hopefully the standard will be changed to the american one but at the end of the day it should never have been fiddled with in the first place. 

Starlite - i'd be interested to know what's wrong with chi's too? I know stupid byb breed 'teacup' ones but i'd like to know whats wrong with the show ones - genuinely  xx


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## GSDlover4ever (Feb 21, 2009)

Mollydoodle said:


> I did see the interview but agree that the dog was in a bad state skeletally(?) but then meny of the GSDs shown at crufts all have badly sloping backs due to HD and ova conditions so is it just that the GSD owners who show feel they are being picked on? can they not see how bad their dogs are compared to wot they shud look like?


I don't know why people asume this, just because a GSD has a sloping back does ot mean it has HD.

I have seen and been involved with these type of GSD's that so many of you hate and asume that they are unable to walk properly...... and guess what they are like any other dog and able to walk, run, breath naturally unlike so many other breeds.

I don't see anybody slagging of the wippets, they also have a roach back!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Sigh - GSDs are not being made a scapegoat. The Kennel Club are concentrating on several breeds, not just GSDs - it's just that the GSD clubs and breeders are more vociferous in their protests at the KC expecting them to change than everyone else. They do not like the fact that the Kennel Club are wanting them to breed to the breed standard rather than have extreme roach backs and poor hocks. They also do not like the fact that the Kennel Club expect them to stick to KC rules at shows and not show in a Seiger-like fashion - yelling and shouting and attracting dog's attention in the ring is called double handling and is not allowed at KC licenced events, but the GSD fraternity consistently flout this rule. It's dreadful if you are in a ring anywhere near GSDs and the "double handling" fraternity are there - it completely spoils the show for everyone else.

It is for those two things together, and the fact that some of the GSD clubs (not all) refused to agree to stop doing them, that the KC took the step of hitting the breeders and exhibitors where it hurts - ie take away the CC, the prize they are all wanting their dogs to obtain. Some of the clubs have agreed to adhere to these rules, some have stated flatly that they are going to form their own show association - one presumes so they can go on breeding cripples and double-handling.

So why are some people against the Kennel Club for trying to do something? You'd soon be on their backs if they had done nothing. Talk about damned if they do and damned if they don't!


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Sigh - GSDs are not being made a scapegoat. The Kennel Club are concentrating on several breeds, not just GSDs - it's just that the GSD clubs and breeders are more vociferous in their protests at the KC expecting them to change than everyone else. They do not like the fact that the Kennel Club are wanting them to breed to the breed standard rather than have extreme roach backs and poor hocks. They also do not like the fact that the Kennel Club expect them to stick to KC rules at shows and not show in a Seiger-like fashion - yelling and shouting and attracting dog's attention in the ring is called double handling and is not allowed at KC licenced events, but the GSD fraternity consistently flout this rule. It's dreadful if you are in a ring anywhere near GSDs and the "double handling" fraternity are there - it completely spoils the show for everyone else.
> 
> It is for those two things together, and the fact that some of the GSD clubs (not all) refused to agree to stop doing them, that the KC took the step of hitting the breeders and exhibitors where it hurts - ie take away the CC, the prize they are all wanting their dogs to obtain. Some of the clubs have agreed to adhere to these rules, some have stated flatly that they are going to form their own show association - one presumes so they can go on breeding cripples and double-handling.
> 
> So why are some people against the Kennel Club for trying to do something? You'd soon be on their backs if they had done nothing. Talk about damned if they do and damned if they don't!


We don't seem to disagree on many topics but i think we do on this :lol:. The kennel club are a joke imo on manny different things. They very publicly hit a breed which they know is very popular and very well known up and down the country. A breed in which the majority of people have long campaigned for the kc to get their finger out. The majority of gsds in the show ring are not cripples. I don't like the look of them but i have seen first hand that they are as far from cripples as you can get. They should be being bred to standard or at least being placed to standard but there are so many breeds that really are crippled that should have been the main focus. Everyone in every breed should be fighting for healthier dogs, stricter rules ect. As for the whole 'double handling' i've seen it with my own eyes in other breeds too and it's really quiet horrible - talk about taking things ott - anyone who does it should be thrown out and suspended from showing for a while. x


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> We don't seem to disagree on many topics but i think we do on this :lol:. The kennel club are a joke imo on manny different things. They very publicly hit a breed which they know is very popular and very well known up and down the country. A breed in which the majority of people have long campaigned for the kc to get their finger out. The majority of gsds in the show ring are not cripples. I don't like the look of them but i have seen first hand that they are as far from cripples as you can get. They should be being bred to standard or at least being placed to standard but there are so many breeds that really are crippled that should have been the main focus. Everyone in every breed should be fighting for healthier dogs, stricter rules ect. As for the whole 'double handling' i've seen it with my own eyes in other breeds too and it's really quiet horrible - talk about taking things ott - anyone who does it should be thrown out and suspended from showing for a while. x


Oh, I agree with you on a lot of points hun. I agree that the majority of GSDs in the ring are not cripples, I agree that double handling should be penalised wherever it occurs, and I agree that all breeds where there are problems should be being looked at - where we differ is that I know all breeds are being looked at and that other clubs as well as the GSD clubs are in dispute with the KC about some of their proposed changes. Even our little club, the Bergamasco Club of GB, is in dispute with the KC because they want us to alter the breed standard by taking out the part which refers to long eyelashes. They are saying it's cosmetic and has to go, we are saying that the long eyelashes are functional in keeping the hair off the eyes while allowing the eyes to be shaded by the hair. So the KC are looking at all clubs, even the tiny ones, and not just singling out GSDs.

We'll have to agree to disagree about the rest though!


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

Regarding the "double handling" points that have been bought up and it being a pain if you are in the next ring. This is done from the outside, which I agree is totally uncalled for......

But there are many other breeds where owners insist on taking squeaky toys into the ring, even if concealed in your pocket there is nothing worse and off putting than having an handler standing with thier dog behind you and a bloody squeaky toy being squeaked to get its ears up. This is so rude and inconsiderate to other handlers and dogs standing in front as of course their ears will respond by laying back to pick up where the squeak has come from.

Another gripe is handlers who insist on throwing their "bait" on the floor just as the judge goes down the line......if your standing behind and your dog sees this he sure is going to think "snack time". Ok your dogs ears maybe up but what about consideration for the handler and dog behind?

When a dog is being going over how many times do you see the handler throw that odd piece of liver or chicken on the floor to get "the best of the dogs expression" and then leave it.......great if your dog gets a whiff of this or your next in the ring with say a gundog who insists on going around with his nose to the ground!!

All this is another means of "double handling" whether its the German Shepherd people on the outside tossing a ball up or squeaky toys or throwing bait it is all inconsiderate ........

BUT its not just the German Shepherd Dog fraternity who are guilty of it but seem always to get the brunt of the criticism.

It all needs to be stopped...the KC cannot pick on one breed and not on the other


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

deb53 said:


> All this is another means of "double handling" whether its the German Shepherd people on the outside tossing a ball up or squeaky toys or throwing bait it is all inconsiderate ........
> 
> BUT its not just the German Shepherd Dog fraternity who are guilty of it but seem always to get the brunt of the criticism.
> 
> It all needs to be stopped...the KC cannot pick on one breed and not on the other


the double handling and baiting i hate and agree with you totally, but i do not agree that the KC are picking on one specific breed - and they arent "picking" on anyone in the first place!

They are addressing issues within breeds which have become over exaggerated and unhealthy.
Pugs, bulldogs, pekingese, GSDs are to name a few which are in meetings with the KC reg their breed standards - am i the only one who reads Dog World?? :confused1:

Im still waiting for someone who quoted chihuahuas within their reply to get back to me  x


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

Starlite said:


> the double handling and baiting i hate and agree with you totally, but i do not agree that the KC are picking on one specific breed - and they arent "picking" on anyone in the first place!
> 
> They are addressing issues within breeds which have become over exaggerated and unhealthy.
> Pugs, bulldogs, pekingese, GSDs are to name a few which are in meetings with the KC reg their breed standards - am i the only one who reads Dog World?? :confused1:
> ...


My post was solely in respect of the posts on double handling. Maybe "pick" was the wrong word 
What I was trying to say was about the KC guidelines about double handling and it's always the GSD's that are quoted when double handling is mentioned.

I was pointing out the different aspects of double handling and the problems that arise regarding the ways of handling I stated.

I fully appreciate that other breeds are being looked into by the KC regarding health issues.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

nic101 said:


> if this is the same do gi saw - quite honestly id ban all GSD's from Crufts tilll they sort it out
> 
> their backs are discusting.... and i cant see how anyone can find that acceptable!!!
> 
> btw - i love GSD's - straight backed ones/working type...!!!


I agree with this, I deplore what's been done to GSD's AND other breeds when you compare working dogs to hideously distorted show types.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

cutekiaro1 said:


> so what about all the other breeds like the pug, bull dog, chi, and every other breed that IMO has far worse health problems than the GSD. Why is the GSD the one that is always singled out.
> 
> BTW I do get what you are saying and agree that if it is not found to be acceptable then all breeds with problems should be banned


Yes, all breeds should be banned if they have serious health problems or deformities bred in. And by 'deformities' I include too much wrinkling of the skin, too short legs or anything else that stops the dog doing the job it was created for as efficiently as the working lines of the same breed. I'd like to see show dogs reverting back towards their working counterparts.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Even though the KC adressed the issues with the gsd what possibly can change if dogs with roach backs are still being placed .... its sends a double message out there and it is hypocritical of the kc to say thats not right but allow the placing of those dogs even though there are better ones in the ring at the same time....


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## Mollydoodle (Mar 10, 2010)

GSDlover4ever said:


> I don't know why people asume this, just because a GSD has a sloping back does ot mean it has HD.
> 
> I have seen and been involved with these type of GSD's that so many of you hate and asume that they are unable to walk properly...... and guess what they are like any other dog and able to walk, run, breath naturally unlike so many other breeds.
> 
> I don't see anybody slagging of the wippets, they also have a roach back!


the whippet is meant to have the roach back the gsd isn't and there are many now with this due to breeding issues and bad genes ect. Not the only breed been messed about with by the kennel club and breeders so dont get so defensive. Oh and I dont hate gsd's I luv them actully so dont jump to conclusions


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

I know the KC aren't perfect guys but they are all we have ad i think its about time we actually looked at the good they do and not just the bad.

They are addressing issues and working towards "fit for function" which is good imo.

What would people rather, the KC was dissolved and DLRC took over??

*A house divided upon itself cannot stand*


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Starlite said:


> I know the KC aren't perfect guys but they are all we have ad i think its about time we actually looked at the good they do and not just the bad.
> 
> They are addressing issues and working towards "fit for function" which is good imo.
> 
> What would people rather, the KC was dissolved and DLRC took over??


My point exactly when I wrote that they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

I think it is also interesting that most of the people who are slating the Kennel Club on here (not all, but most) have no idea of what the Kennel Club is really doing. I mean, you only have to look at the title of the thread itself "GSD owners call for Crufts to sack Kisco" - firstly her surname is spelt wrongly, and secondly I doubt very much if any GSD owners were calling for CRUFTS to sack her as she is not employed by "Crufts" - Crufts is a dog show. Caroline Cisko is employed by the Kennel Club. Now, it doesn't bother me that people don't know this - but it does bother me that people with this sort of lack of knowledge think they know everything about the Kennel Club and what it is doing, and furthermore spout the suppositions they make through lack of knowledge as fact!


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> My point exactly when I wrote that they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
> 
> I think it is also interesting that most of the people who are slating the Kennel Club on here (not all, but most) have no idea of what the Kennel Club is really doing. I mean, you only have to look at the title of the thread itself "GSD owners call for Crufts to sack Kisco" - firstly her surname is spelt wrongly, and secondly I doubt very much if any GSD owners were calling for CRUFTS to sack her as she is not employed by "Crufts" - Crufts is a dog show. Caroline Cisko is employed by the Kennel Club. Now, it doesn't bother me that people don't know this - but it does bother me that people with this sort of lack of knowledge think they know everything about the Kennel Club and what it is doing, and furthermore spout the suppositions they make through lack of knowledge as fact!


lolol :lol: as much as we may differ on this subject, i was thinking that too lol! it got me thinking earlier too - alot of the problem lies with the actual judges themselves too i think - i mean, if they stopped placing such dogs then the dogs would start to be bred differently? Just pondering out loud here lol . x


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> lolol :lol: as much as we may differ on this subject, i was thinking that too lol! it got me thinking earlier too - alot of the problem lies with the actual judges themselves too i think - i mean, if they stopped placing such dogs then the dogs would start to be bred differently? Just pondering out loud here lol . x


thats what i mean!

people are slating the KC when it is actually the judges who put these dogs forward. The KC have set down their standards but they cant overrule every judges decision can they??


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> the whippet is meant to have the roach back the gsd i


but this is ilogical - surely the arguememt against a roach back has to be that it is structurally unsound for a dog ? - therefore if it is structurally unsound for a GSD then it *must* also be unsound for a Whippet - (have you SEEN the roach on the average Italian Greyhound ??? )

Saying that it just 'looks wrong' could equally apply to many breeds who have diverged from the 'normal' dog shape- what's natural after all about a Dacshunds shape or a Pomeranians ? or a Borzois ? - after all the GSD, BSD and Dutch Shepherd once all looked the same therefore even the straight backed GSD is 'wrong' !

The arguement against the curved topline has to be on health grounds and therefore must also apply to all breeds with a roach - but wait - is'nt a curved topline actally written into some breed standards by the Kennel Club themsoelves - totally illogical !!

Yvonne


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Bijou said:


> but this is ilogical - surely the arguememt against a roach back has to be that it is structurally unsound for a dog ? - therefore if it is structurally unsound for a GSD then it *must* also be unsound for a Whippet - (have you SEEN the roach on the average Italian Greyhound ??? )
> 
> Saying that it just 'looks wrong' could equally apply to many breeds who have diverged from the 'normal' dog shape- what's natural after all about a Dacshunds shape or a Pomeranians ? or a Borzois ? - after all the GSD, BSD and Dutch Shepherd once all looked the same therefore even the straight backed GSD is 'wrong' !
> 
> ...


Sight hounds should be slightly roached because they have a lot of angulation in their back legs. The more angulation they have, the more power they have, the faster they run for the short periods they do so. GSD's do not need this amount of angulation, they are meant to cover ground effortlessly to do their job which means more moderate angulation for better economy of movement. The roaching of the back is caused by the construction of the legs, rather than the back determining the legs. The second thigh is also too long.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> My point exactly when I wrote that they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
> 
> I think it is also interesting that most of the people who are slating the Kennel Club on here (not all, but most) have no idea of what the Kennel Club is really doing. I mean, you only have to look at the title of the thread itself "GSD owners call for Crufts to sack Kisco" - firstly her surname is spelt wrongly, and secondly I doubt very much if any GSD owners were calling for CRUFTS to sack her as she is not employed by "Crufts" - Crufts is a dog show. Caroline Cisko is employed by the Kennel Club. Now, it doesn't bother me that people don't know this - but it does bother me that people with this sort of lack of knowledge think they know everything about the Kennel Club and what it is doing, and furthermore spout the suppositions they make through lack of knowledge as fact!


Just what I thought.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> lolol :lol: as much as we may differ on this subject, i was thinking that too lol! it got me thinking earlier too - alot of the problem lies with the actual judges themselves too i think - i mean, if they stopped placing such dogs then the dogs would start to be bred differently? Just pondering out loud here lol . x





Starlite said:


> thats what i mean!
> 
> people are slating the KC when it is actually the judges who put these dogs forward. The KC have set down their standards but they cant overrule every judges decision can they??


The Kennel Club are trying to address this problem of judges. Regulation F9 states:
_Regulation F9 - failing to maintain and abide by the highest standards in accordance with KC Rules and regulations and the Code of Best Practice for Judges._

So if anyone feels that judging was not up to their prescribed standard then they should complain under this rule. Last year at Blackpool, we border collie owners were incensed at the extremely bad judging - by a very famous judge too - and loads of us complained. He was warned and fined £300.

Judge fined for poor ring manner


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

OMG no wonder! 

Just had a look on youtube, was his car on a meter or something??
He seemed completely uninterested and barely looked at or touched any


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> I mean, you only have to look at the title of the thread itself "GSD owners call for Crufts to sack Kisco" - firstly her surname is spelt wrongly, and secondly I doubt very much if any GSD owners were calling for CRUFTS to sack her as she is not employed by "Crufts" - Crufts is a dog show. Caroline Cisko is employed by the Kennel Club.


Her name *is* spelled correctly on this thread title - it is Kisko.
Caroline Kisko - The Kennel Club


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> Her name *is* spelled correctly on this thread title - it is Kisko.
> Caroline Kisko - The Kennel Club


OK my bad - but she isn't employed by CRUFTS!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

High Quality German Shepherds « Retrieverman's Weblog


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

One of the problem with the GSD judging is that the GSD breeders do not have a problem with the judging of their animals as such.

So unlike the poor BC judging quoted, where the breeders took a stand against the judge, the GSD breeders who are in favour of the Roach back will not be complaining especially when their dogs are winning.

The Roach back is not a hidden trait, it is there for most to see, it is therefore easily got rid of if judges were of a mind to stop placing such dogs tomorrow.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> One of the problem with the GSD judging is that the GSD breeders do not have a problem with the judging of their animals as such.
> 
> So unlike the poor BC judging quoted, where the breeders took a stand against the judge, the GSD breeders who are in favour of the Roach back will not be complaining especially when their dogs are winning.
> 
> The Roach back is not a hidden trait, it is there for most to see, it is therefore easily got rid of if judges were of a mind to stop placing such dogs tomorrow.


In the case of the border collie judging I quoted, the EXHIBITORS took a stand against the judge, not the breeders. Not all exhibitors are breeders! Similarly, in the case of GSDs, exhibitors whose dogs do not have roached backs can complain against judges placing roached back dogs above them.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

> Similarly, in the case of GSDs, exhibitors whose dogs do not have roached backs can complain against judges placing roached back dogs above them.


Very good point, why don't they?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> Very good point, why don't they?


No idea! The system is there and works - the KC will warn and fine even the most famous of judges as we in border collies have shown. All I can surmise is that GSD exhibitors do not really mind roach backed dogs winning their classes - and if that is the case, then they deserve to have their CCs taken away.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> No idea! The system is there and works - the KC will warn and fine even the most famous of judges as we in border collies have shown. All I can surmise is that GSD exhibitors do not really mind roach backed dogs winning their classes - and if that is the case, then they deserve to have their CCs taken away.


i just had a thought pop up in my mind so thought i would pick up on this.

Wasnt the KC ensuring the judges are being watched in their decision making? Im sure i read that somewhere and also its the KC who says roach back is not acceptable anymore regardless of what breeders might think so that why CCs are being taken away.

So i just wonder cause they want this change but then they seem to rely purely on the public to complain (and im sure i know of a few who did complain but would have to double check, but i guess 2 voices are nothing against hundreds lol).

All it takes is to look at the dogs having won shows (roach back is an obvious visual aspect) and penalise the judges who placed those dogs after the KC announced that they want to work towards the betterment of the breed.

In this case fingers can and maybe are pointed now at exhibitors that they dont complain, but shouldnt it be the KC responsibility to monitor judges themselves? :confused1:


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Natik said:


> i just had a thought pop up in my mind so thought i would pick up on this.
> 
> Wasnt the KC ensuring the judges are being watched in their decision making? Im sure i read that somewhere and also its the KC who says roach back is not acceptable anymore regardless of what breeders might think so that why CCs are being taken away.
> 
> ...


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Only someone with very little knowledge of the show world could come up with such a comment!

As you say, a roach back is an obvious visual aspect that may (but also just as likely may not) be picked up from a photo. What about things that can't be picked up easily from a photo? Or are you advocating the Kennel Club just concentrate on this one breed? And who is going to take and develop all these photos of all these dogs?

What you are suggesting is an impossibility. There are 37 general and group championship shows each year, not counting Crufts. Each of those shows will have around 20 rings, on either two, three or four days. Can you imagine the cost of sending one person per ring to police each ring (ie take photos and report on any bad judging) at each show? How much do you think it would cost to enter shows if show secretaries had to raise fees to cover that? And that's before you even start to think about breed championships shows, general open shows, breed open shows, companion shows.

Despite what you would like people to believe, the KC _are_ monitoring judges. They have rules and a system in place to investigate any claim of bad judging put to them by exhibitors. Furthermore, this system has been proved to work by what happened with border collie judging at Blackpool last year.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Only someone with very little knowledge of the show world could come up with such a comment!


Ur comment and especially ur smilies are patronizing and uncalled for. I commented on ur post with a thought which came up and it gets treated as a joke. And there was me believing that a respectable adult discussion shouldnt be a problem ... but hey..



> As you say, a roach back is an obvious visual aspect that may (but also just as likely may not) be picked up from a photo. What about things that can't be picked up easily from a photo? Or are you advocating the Kennel Club just concentrate on this one breed? And who is going to take and develop all these photos of all these dogs?


I dont understand, I was referring only to the roach back myself as thats the thought which sprung to my mind. 
I believe if it would be known that the KC actually are looking into it themselves on the odd occasion rather then relying on complaints then judges would watch themselves more and be more carefull in their decision making as they might be the ones being watched or not.. Just a thought.
And no, they shouldnt concentrate only on one breed, but thats the breed they take the ccs away.



> What you are suggesting is an impossibility. There are 37 general and group championship shows each year, not counting Crufts. Each of those shows will have around 20 rings, on either two, three or four days. Can you imagine the cost of sending one person per ring to police each ring (ie take photos and report on any bad judging) at each show? How much do you think it would cost to enter shows if show secretaries had to raise fees to cover that? And that's before you even start to think about breed championships shows, general open shows, breed open shows, companion shows.


First of all, im suggesting nothing. Im just putting my thoughts down.
I also didnt suggest anything of the above u mention so i dont have a clue why u assume i did. Maybe rereading my post would be an option for u.



> Despite what you would like people to believe, the KC _are_ monitoring judges. They have rules and a system in place to investigate any claim of bad judging put to them by exhibitors. Furthermore, this system has been proved to work by what happened with border collie judging at Blackpool last year.


What do i exactly want people to believe, i am really so fed up of words being put into my mouth and my posts misread.


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## pickle (Mar 24, 2008)

The KC may not be perfect but it is all we have. It is a long established *club* and not a legal body or business, it is run by members and not the government or corporate body. The KC cannot enforce it's opinions or those of it's members on anybody, all it can do is withdraw it's backing or support to breed clubs or organisations that they feel are not acting in the best interest of the canine world.
There seems to be a common misunderstanding of what the Kennel Club is and what it can do. Even so far as when it imposes fines on people for breaking it's rules it has no legal teeth to enforce payment of them (as far as I am aware, if anyone knows different please feel free to correct me!) just the power to ban people from its events and using it's services.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Natik said:


> Ur comment and especially ur smilies are patronizing and uncalled for. I commented on ur post with a thought which came up and it gets treated as a joke. And there was me believing that a respectable adult discussion shouldnt be a problem ... but hey


My smilies weren't intended to be patronising - they were there because your reply was so funny that it literally made me laugh. Sorry, can't help that!



Natik said:


> I dont understand, I was referring only to the roach back myself as thats the thought which sprung to my mind.
> I believe if it would be known that the KC actually are looking into it themselves on the odd occasion rather then relying on complaints then judges would watch themselves more and be more carefull in their decision making as they might be the ones being watched or not.. Just a thought.
> And no, they shouldnt concentrate only on one breed, but thats the breed they take the ccs away.
> 
> ...


You did suggest something Natik - you suggested that it might be a good idea for the Kennel Club to monitor judges themselves, by looking at photographs, without any thought about what that would entail. The only way it could possibly happen was to have a man with a camera standing by every ring at every show, taking pictures of every dog being exhibited - and the image of that and the total impossibilty cost wise was why your post was so funny.



Natik said:


> What do i exactly want people to believe, i am really so fed up of words being put into my mouth and my posts misread.


Natik, I don't have to put words into your mouth about the Kennel Club and judging, and neither do I misread your posts. I know what you think because you and I have had several conversations on several posts (even on different forums!) about our opposing thoughts on the subject, and each time it is the same conversation. In fact, I nipped it in the bud so that we didn't even have to post it all again the last time - remember posts 22 and 24 on this thread?

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/96137-breeds-crisis-3.html

You took that in the spirit it was meant, and didn't seem to find my smilies patronising on that thread. I'm sorry that you chose not to do the same with this one.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> You did suggest something Natik - you suggested that it might be a good idea for the Kennel Club to monitor judges themselves, *by looking at photographs, without any thought about what that would entail. * The only way it could possibly happen was to have a man with a camera standing by every ring at every show, taking pictures of every dog being exhibited - and the image of that and the total impossibilty cost wise was why your post was so funny.


Could u please quote for me the part of my post I mentioned photographs please (thank u in advance  ) or else i must come to the conclusion that u are actually laughing about urself pmsl



> Natik, I don't have to put words into your mouth about the Kennel Club and judging, and neither do I misread your posts. I know what you think because you and I have had several conversations on several posts (even on different forums!) about our opposing thoughts on the subject, and each time it is the same conversation. In fact, I nipped it in the bud so that we didn't even have to post it all again the last time - remember posts 22 and 24 on this thread?
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/96137-breeds-crisis-3.html
> 
> You took that in the spirit it was meant, and didn't seem to find my smilies patronising on that thread. I'm sorry that you chose not to do the same with this one.


Fair enough, i know that u know what i think of the KC, but dont see why mention that i try to make people believe somemthing in relevance to a post which has nothing to do with that, rather more with just a thought... (and laugh as much as u want) i believe is not as ridiculous as u try to make it out to be


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Natik said:


> Could u please quote for me the part of my post I mentioned photographs please (thank u in advance  ) or else i must come to the conclusion that u are actually laughing about urself pmsl


Certainly - here it is



Natik said:


> All it takes is to look at the dogs having won shows (roach back is an obvious visual aspect) and penalise the judges who placed those dogs after the KC announced that they want to work towards the betterment of the breed.


How were you intending them to look at dogs without having a picture to look at? Or were you imagining the KC employing people to stand at every ring at every show and just look at the dogs? Just as funny!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> Certainly - here it is
> 
> How were you intending them to look at dogs without having a picture to look at? Or were you imagining the KC employing people to stand at every ring at every show and just look at the dogs? Just as funny!


ehhmm... so u are laughing at urself cause no mention of photographs and its all in ur head 

i said ....



> I believe if it would be known that the KC actually are looking into it themselves *on the odd occasion *rather then relying on complaints then judges would watch themselves more and be more carefull in their decision making as they might be the ones being watched or not..


they could send out someone on the odd occasion to monitor the judging. The judges im sure would watch their decision making of fear of being penalised. 
Im convinced if they would feel that someone MIGHT be watching decisions would be made more in favour of the breed rather than, i dont know, whatever motivates a judge to place a roached back dog.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Natik said:


> ehhmm... so u are laughing at urself cause no mention of photographs and its all in ur head
> 
> i said ....
> 
> they could send out someone on the odd occasion to monitor the judging. The judges im sure would watch their decision making of fear of being penalised.


No you didn't say that. You might have _*meant*_ that, but what you _*said* _was



Natik said:


> All it takes is to look at the dogs having won shows (roach back is an obvious visual aspect) and penalise the judges who placed those dogs after the KC announced that they want to work towards the betterment of the breed.


Tis there in black n white hun - The Moving Finger writes etc! 

If you had written about someone being sent out on the odd occasion, I would have replied that I think they do that already, but would have to check because I couldn't be 100% sure.

I still think having a procedure for exhibitors to complain about bad judging is a good thing to do - and will result in many more judges being fined. After all, who is more bothered about their dogs being judged correctly than the exhibitors?


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> No you didn't say that. You might have _*meant*_ that, but what you _*said* _was
> 
> Tis there in black n white hun - The Moving Finger writes etc!
> 
> ...


U will find that i did write in my second post sending out someone, (just editing ) thats what i meant by watching them. u also took my thought out of context by assuming that i meant emplying someone for every single show, and u laughed about.
But this is getting nowhere and its silly now, so i just stop here.

I agree that a complain system is agood thing, but i dont believe that thats alone is going to change anything. 
But if they are already sending out folk to moniter the judges (and im sure i read it somewhere like i previously said) than thats a good thing, but i wonder if they had sent out someone to monitor the crufts judging...


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Natik said:


> I agree that a complain system is agood thing, but i dont believe that thats alone is going to change anything.
> But if they are already sending out folk to moniter the judges (and im sure i read it somewhere like i previously said) than thats a good thing, but i wonder if they had sent out someone to monitor the crufts judging...


It'll be interesting to see if it has changed the way Andrew Brace judges now that he's been warned and fined. I suspect that now the KC has been seen to do that to one of the most eminent judges, a lot more complaints will follow suit.

I also suspect that if there is someone going round monitoring judging, then they will be doing so at Crufts, because despite all the media hype it is, in essence, a championship dog show like any other. But if there is, and if they were at Crufts, doesn't the fact that they didn't see the GSD judging just show that doing it that way is a poor system?


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> It'll be interesting to see if it has changed the way Andrew Brace judges now that he's been warned and fined. I suspect that now the KC has been seen to do that to one of the most eminent judges, a lot more complaints will follow suit.
> 
> I also suspect that if there is someone going round monitoring judging, then they will be doing so at Crufts, because despite all the media hype it is, in essence, a championship dog show like any other. But if there is, and if they were at Crufts, doesn't the fact that they didn't see the GSD judging just show that doing it that way is a poor system?


Its either a poor system or they didnt step in and took action. One can only assume. 
But guessing that the GSD stands out with all the hype surrounding their backs and the CCs taken away i would have thought they would have made sure that the judging of the GSD wouldnt go unmonitered at such a big event such as crufts.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Surely all judges operate under KC guidelines and rules. If an edict was sent out re roachbacks then judges would have to comply no matter what breeders or exhibitors thought, is that correct?

How *does* the KC monitor health?

If a peer reviewed, proper scientific paper came out tomorrow to say for instance that all dogs in a breed of a certain colour were found to have a gene that made them very susceptible to dying young from a very aggressive cancer. Would the KC act immediately on that and how would they go about it? How would they prevent such dogs being shown? Could they instruct judges to disqualify such dogs despite the breed clubs being dead against it?

Is that in their remit, or would they have to bow down to the breed clubs?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> Surely all judges operate under KC guidelines and rules. If an edict was sent out re roachbacks then judges would have to comply no matter what breeders or exhibitors thought, is that correct?
> 
> How *does* the KC monitor health?
> 
> ...


The Kennel Club monitors health through the breed clubs. The committee of each breed club has to nominate one member who is responsible for monitoring the breeding (and all its aspects, including health) of the members and report to the KC via her committee.

The Kennel Club does not have to bow down to the breed clubs - hence the problems the GSD breeders who still want to breed roach backs are having at the moment. The breed clubs set their own code of ethics, but they also have to incorporate the Kennel Club's code of ethics into theirs. Similarly, the breed clubs set the breed standards, but unless the Kennel Club agree with them, they will not approve and adopt them.

To go with your example - I would imagine the Kennel Club would instruct the breed clubs that, in order to have their code of ethics and breed standard approved and adopted, they must include in their code of ethics that breeding to produce dogs of this colour was not allowed and amend their breed standard accordngly. They did something similar with the Rhodesian Ridgeback Club about culling ridgeless pups a few years ago. If codes of ethics and breed standards are not adopted by the Kennel Club then the breed will not be recognised, will not be allowed to be registered, and will not be allowed to compete at KC shows.


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