# AGAINST spaying and neutering



## serpentseye (Feb 20, 2010)

all people AGAINST the cruel and unusual punishment that is spaying and neutering, please sign this petition:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/stop-spaying-and-neutering

Spaying and neutering, or ovariohysterectomy and castration, is the act of removing an animal's reproductive organs through invasive surgery. This is blatant disregard of animal rights. How would you like it if someone wheeled you into an operating room and took out your organs so you would be more manageable? Cutting up pets isnt our decision to make. Some will argue that these animals are 'ours', and as their 'owners' it is indeed our choice. However, this is what animal abusers say, too, but does that make it any more right? When the black people were slaves, white people beat and whipped them. Was that right? Was that just? The white people said they owned them, so going by the logic of the people who say it's our decision, it was. This isnt the answer to pet problems. Its wrong-Period.

And that brings us to my next point-there is no valid argument for spaying and neutering. The three excuses people mostly use are overpopulation prevention, increase in pet health, and behavioural issues. Firstly - overpopulation. Now, sure, there are homeless pets, but isnt homeless better than mutilated? And speaking of homeless, why dont we spay homeless people against their will? We humans have taken overpopulation to a whole new level ourselves. Going, again, by the logic of the people who support spaying and neutering, we should go spay and neuter all the starving in Africa, the homeless in Canada, the overworked and underpaid in China, against their will. Why not? It prevents overpopulation, so why shouldnt we? Now, secondly - pet's health. There is absolutely NO proof that spaying and neutering prolongs health. None. That was a scam made up years ago to get people to spay and neuter their pets. The last main reason is behaviour. Intact pets spray, chew and scratch furniture, and are more active. Its a fact. Dont change the pet to suit the environment, change the environment to suit the pet.

Spaying and neutering is dangerous and painful. Have you ever noticed whenever anyone is giving you reasons to spay or neuter your pet, they always mention health benefits, but can never seem to present evidence to support them? They also fail to acknowledge the health risks involved in the surgery. Hmm... Now isnt that odd? Long-term health risks include increased risk of osteosarcoma (A form of bone cancer), extremely common in medium and large sized spayed or neutered dogs. Spaying also creates urinary 'spay incontinence' a urinary tract disease that requires tremendously expensive urinary tract food, and monthly x-ray checkups. Neutering a male dog quadruples the risk of prostate cancer, and doubles the risk of urinary cancers. In ALL spayed and neutered pets, obesity is a huge issue. Spaying and neutering upsets a pet's hormonal balance, which make them less active and therefore drastically increases obesity. These operations make dogs three times more likely to be overweight, and cats 2 times. Every day, thousands of pets getting spayed or neutered will die on the operating table, or from complications. Dont take the risk! This surgery is also very painful. Many people will argue this, saying it is completely painless. I ask those people: Have you ever watching someone spay a pet? Have you watched them sit in a cage as the anesthetic wears off, howling and yowling in pain? I have, and it's utterly heartbreaking.

Furthermore, the only reason we spay or neuter is to make pets more manageable. Female animals go into heat. People getting a pet need to know that. Its life and its nature. Male cats spray (And it is not guaranteed neutering will stop it), but we need to understand, it's what a pet does, and it's what a pet is. People say responsible owners spay and neuter their pets. I say no, responsible owners understand that a pet is a pet, and they shouldnt change it to make it more manageable. If caring for a natural, intact animal is so difficult, dont get a pet. Its that simple.

We need to stop the horrible cruelty that is spaying and neutering, stop the pain and danger and violation of animal rights. There is no argument for mutilating pets for owners' sakes. Save lives-Dont spay!


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## serpentseye (Feb 20, 2010)

Bump..........


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I am a bad owner then, I have spayed & neutered my pets & will continue to do so


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I don't know what I am, Indie's spayed because I decided against breeding from her, Tau's entire, but I will spay eventually, either after I've managed to take a litter, or if I decide I'm not going to, what a terrible, terrible owner am I!!!!


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## Ste-anca (Jul 6, 2010)

Actually, speying and neutering does prolong health in dogs with diseases in their reproductive organs. And if your dog has a hereditary disease you wouldn't want them to be bred by any owner they may have so the most responsible is to spey or neuter.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Another bad owner mine got castrated becase I was having a bitch.


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## Bobbie (May 3, 2008)

I must be a bad owner also


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## serpentseye (Feb 20, 2010)

if you love your animals why do you mutilate them like this??????


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## Ste-anca (Jul 6, 2010)

It's not mutilation, it's called *being a responsible owner*. Why would you want to give anyone the chance to breed from a dog/bitch that will pass on illnesses to 5,7 or even more pups at one time?


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## Inca's Mum (Apr 9, 2009)

simplysardonic said:


> I am a bad owner then, I have spayed & neutered my pets & will continue to do so


Echo this.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

It's almost not worth replying - except to say
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2010)

http://epirev.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/20/2/204.pdf
Quote
One of the first pieces of information to be learned
about cancer etiology in dogs was that spaying protects
against breast cancer (10, 16). Table 3 shows the
odds ratios reported by Schneider et al. (16) to be
associated with spaying, using dogs with intact ovaries
as the referent group. The protective effect was present
only if the dog was younger than 2!/2 years at the time
of spaying. In general, female dogs are considered to
have reached maturity around 2-2 Vi years of age

You have also got to take into the equation the amount of puppies that will suffer either dreadful deaths, cruelty and abandonment due to over population.


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## Ste-anca (Jul 6, 2010)

rona said:


> http://epirev.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/20/2/204.pdf
> Quote
> One of the first pieces of information to be learned
> about cancer etiology in dogs was that spaying protects
> ...


Very good point!


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2010)

Ste-anca said:


> Very good point!


The OP has actually made some very good points also, everyone seems to spay or neuter without ever knowing or considering the facts


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Well said Rona
Serpentseye, have you read the recent thread about the beagle with all her problems? Do you think its fair on the dog to have complicated seasons for the rest of her life or that she is better off being spayed & able to live a healthier life? Have you heard of pyometra? If not please look it up


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Fleur said:


> It's almost not worth replying - except to say
> :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


Lmao thats my thoughts :thumbup: x


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## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

Another bad owner here, for protecting potential harm caused to my dog, if he was to catch a bitch in heat, or putting that bitch and her potential puppies at risk of death


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## Ste-anca (Jul 6, 2010)

rona said:


> The OP has actually made some very good points also, everyone seems to spay or neuter without ever knowing or considering the facts


I meant the last sentence of the post a quoted before, about the over population. I mean, what if someones dog fell into the hands of a BYB? Would't that be worse than speying or neutering the said dog? If it's in the best interest in the dog then it's the owners choice to speay/neuter. That's my take on it anyway.


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## *WillsTillsBills* (May 12, 2009)

Ste-anca said:


> I meant the last sentence of the post a quoted before, about the over population. I mean, what if someones dog fell into the hands of a BYB? Would't that be worse than speying or neutering the said dog? If it's in the best interest in the dog then it's the owners choice to speay/neuter. That's my take on it anyway.


I completly agree with this! There are alot of nasty people out there!!


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2010)

Oh I don't agree with the OP, but these points are valid, though a little exaggerated



serpentseye said:


> Spaying and neutering, or ovariohysterectomy and castration, is the act of removing an animal's reproductive organs through invasive surgery.
> 
> Long-term health risks include increased risk of osteosarcoma (A form of bone cancer), extremely common in medium and large sized spayed or neutered dogs. Spaying also creates urinary 'spay incontinence' a urinary tract disease that requires tremendously expensive urinary tract food, and monthly x-ray checkups. Neutering a male dog quadruples the risk of prostate cancer, and doubles the risk of urinary cancers. In ALL spayed and neutered pets, obesity is a huge issue. Spaying and neutering upsets a pet's hormonal balance, which make them less active and therefore drastically increases obesity. This surgery is also very painful. Many people will argue this, saying it is completely painless.


With past and ongoing studies, it seems that late spay/neuter (2 years old) is preferable to early spay.
It is only for the overpopulation and human convenience that early spay/neuter has been recommended by vets. obviously some do need earlier intervention for the dogs sake.
No one can deny that it is a painful operation for all dogs


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

I got my pets neutered so I must be an idiot 

I live around ALOT of other dogs, it would be unfair for my dog to be in heat around them, there is NO way I could keep her in for 3 weeks. I also had her spayed to reduce the risk of her getting pyo. IMO I do not think it cruel, imagine how much pain and stress they would go through if they developed pyo?!

Dave yes I got him neutered to make him more manageable but also againg because I live around alot of other dogs, some of them are bred from so not spayed.

Though I agree with Victoria Stilwell on this one, its like saying to a mad- you have testicals but you are NEVER allowed to have sex. All those hormones are going to make you uncmofortable. It must be worse for a dog being able to smell when a female is on heat and not being able to mate, Iv seen how distressed my dads dally was when the farm collie was on heat and it wasn't nice, so I will continue to get my pets neutered, they are pets and not to be bred from.

A friend of mine hadnt got there rottie neutered yet as he was too young, he got stolen from there garden by a 'breeder' but he had HD so that was passed down onto his puppies!


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## Ste-anca (Jul 6, 2010)

rona said:


> Oh I don't agree with the OP, but these points are valid, though a little exaggerated.
> With past and ongoing studies, it seems that late spay/neuter (2 years old) is preferable to early spay.
> It is only for the overpopulation and human convenience that early spay/neuter has been recommended by vets. obviously some do need earlier intervention for the dogs sake.
> No one can deny that it is a painful operation for all dogs


Oh yeah, I totally agree that the dog should reach sexual maturity before being speayed/neutered if there is no other reason for early intervention as you say.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Is this a wind up? is the OP serious or trying to make a point about the thousands of unwanted dogs and cats euthanised every day because of indiscriminate breeding? 
Dogs have been selectively bred to be companion and working animals. That means we have a responsibility to do our best for them. Which includes not letting them become breeding machines. Neutering is the easiest way to do this. 
Dogs don`t need a good sex life - that is anthropomorphism, and slightly creepy. 
Neutering always needs to be a decision based on the health and welfare of each individual dog. Saying no dogs should be neutered is as pointless as saying all dogs should be neutered.


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## AmberNero (Jun 6, 2010)

All of my pets are spayed/ neutered- but all are rescue animals, I didn't think about it before- but my male, Nero, was neutered at about 3 1/2, after he finished racing, I wonder how that changes the facts? I'll go look it up. I agree with spaying and neutering pets for various reasons- but I think this thread has been useful in making me think more about the issue anyway. If I ever had a dog or cat in the future who wasn't a rescue I would still have them spayed/ neutered, but I would go into it knowing all of the facts and risks.


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## Ste-anca (Jul 6, 2010)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Neutering always needs to be a decision based on the health and welfare of each individual dog. Saying no dogs should be neutered is as pointless as saying all dogs should be neutered.


Totally agree


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2010)

AmberNero said:


> All of my pets are spayed/ neutered- but all are rescue animals, I didn't think about it before- but my male, Nero, was neutered at about 3 1/2, after he finished racing, I wonder how that changes the facts? I'll go look it up. I agree with spaying and neutering pets for various reasons- but I think this thread has been useful in making me think more about the issue anyway. If I ever had a dog or cat in the future who wasn't a rescue I would still have them spayed/ neutered, but I would go into it knowing all of the facts and risks.


You see, if he had been a bitch being spayed at that age, it wouldn't have the same protection for mammary cancer but will have more protection from osteosarcoma 
A mine field when you go into it


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## Souris (May 24, 2010)

Do you honestly believe that an animal would be better off homeless than spayed/neutered? 

Because that's downright silly, if you actually took that into equation then almost every person who's posted on this thread should suddenly let their dogs out of the door, and never let them back. Yes, they're neutered, but they're also very well looked after (and I'm guessing spoilt) pooches. 

On the pain issue- any operation is going to cause pain. However, I'm afraid you can't keep a living creature wrapped up in bubble wrap for its entire life, it's going to get sick once and therefore feel pain. I think everyone who has had their dog neutered has taken care of them once they've gotten home- given them extra fuss, extra blankets and treats for dealing with it. The pain lasts for a few weeks (if that), so I'm quite sure it's not as heartbreaking as you say it is- I'm sure the dogs you mentioned howling are also howling because they're in a strange place, with strange smells, and with other animals around. Their owners are no where to be seen, and they're sore- I think I'd cry in that situation too. 

Before you retort back to calling people names, perhaps you could come up with some valid arguments against their points OP?

Edit: A few years ago one of our male rats was VERY aggressive, he would bite, scratch and tear apart any other rat that we put with him. We then proceeded to neuter him, which although it was a big operation for such a small rat, now meant be could live with my other boys in peace. It was either neuter him, and remove those aggressive hormones, or let him live life by himself for the rest of his life by himself (which would have been terrible for him- as rats are social animals, and live best in groups). Yes, I mutilated my rat, but I didn't once think of his opinion- for good reasoning, life was far better for him on the other side of the fence. By your merits, I mutilated my pet and committed an act of animal cruelty- so what would you have done? Let him live our the rest of his life alone, and then die of loneliness?


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

Perhaps the original poster would like to go down to their local dog pound and help when its time for all the overbred dogs and staffies to be put to sleep. 10,000 stray dogs were put down last year in the UK (and thats just the statistics from the local authorities who return their figures) - but hey sure it doesn't matter if the figures get worse cos the OP won't have to be there to mop up the pieces, never mind those poor dogs who spend their last week frightened and alone in a pound before being destroyed.

I see the petition has a whopping 40 signatures.

I am very pro neutering as volunter for a rescue saving death row pound dogs; there are people on here who don't neuter and who are responsible owners; but there are many not bad owners out there who end up with yet more "accidental litters" flowing into the system. Yes there is a difference between not neutering and breeding but it takes great responsibility for the two to work.


And what about cats - cats roam free surely if we didn't neuter cats there wuld be a huge cat over population too?


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## Terrier Fan (Oct 20, 2008)

Add me to the list of idiots 

I have 4 dogs and they are all neutered.

Sophie and Tilly both had phantom preganancies at each season and would be so depressed. They both developed milk, mothered their toys and wouldn't eat properly. I wasn't going to put my dogs through it anymore, so they were both spayed.

The was no question that i would get Toby neutered, he had retained testicles which meant that the chance of him getting testicular cancer was alot higher not to mention all the other problems associated with Cryptorchidism.

I had Louie done because there was no need to keep him intact.

I shouldn't have to defend the reasons for having my dogs done, They are MY dogs and i will do what i think is best for them 

Maybe the OP should do some reading up on some of the problems associated with keeping dogs entire.


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## PurpleCrow (Mar 22, 2009)

Oh dear, someone has a chip on their shoulder...


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## lozb (May 31, 2010)

I'm having Baxter 'done' on Tuesday...
One of things I've read about the arguments FOR this is..... if you're not planning to breed your animal, they still have the twice yearly desire to breed... which frustrates them beyond anything we can imagine. It's a 'wild' thing, a basic instinct to continue to breed. By not allowing the animal the outlet for this 'urge' then you are causing more harm than good. 
I should imagine this equates (somewhat) to a man unable to have sex ever for the rest of his life, yet walking past tempting women all the time, with the desire to 'breed' (or not, as the case might be ) but not being able to follow it through.
^ This might not be right... it's what I've read.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Oh FFS not this again


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Tanya1989 said:


> I can give you the name of a surgeon if you're interested.


Great idea Tanya - he doesn't seem like a very good example of a human :lol: I have to say though this thread made me smile when I wasn't so happy this morning . It's not so much the subject, more the manner its been put across thats amused me - cheers OP :thumbup: x


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## nfp20 (Jun 29, 2010)

serpentseye said:


> all people AGAINST the cruel and unusual punishment that is spaying and neutering, please sign this petition:
> 
> http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/stop-spaying-and-neutering
> 
> ...


Totally irresponsible  There are good medical reasons for both neutering and spaying as well as social responsibilities. I suggest you take a very close look at the numbers of animals in rescues because their owners failed to neuter.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

rona said:


> You see, if he had been a bitch being spayed at that age, it wouldn't have the same protection for mammary cancer but will have more protection from osteosarcoma
> A mine field when you go into it


Good post Rona - this has really set me thinking. I started off reading this thread thinking I knew my position on neutering - ie that provided it was done after the dog/bitch reached sexual maturity then it was a personal choice depending upon dog and owner. My personal choice would be to leave them as nature intended unless there were medical reasons for the neutering.

But you have given me pause for thought. You are right - it is a minefield. There are good and bad points for and against neutering - it protects from some diseases, but makes animals more prone to others.

These days neutering is almost accepted as a norm for dogs from which you don't want to breed. Certainly most vets recommend it. I just wonder whether or not we as owners ought to step back a little and think about it carefully before we act? I'm not saying that anyone who neuters is wrong, or that anyone who doesn't neuter is wrong. I even think that, taking everything into consideration, we would all probably come to the same decision we have already made, whether it be to neuter or not to neuter. I'm just saying that rather than it be an accepted norm to neuter, we should think about it first and weigh up the pros and cons before we go ahead.

And please don't think I'm having a go at anyone on here, because I'm sure most people from this forum will probably have done the research and thought about it in great detail before they made their decision. I'm thinking about the fact that this is a public forum and can be read by people who perhaps don't have as much knowledge as the regular posters on here.


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## jeanie (Nov 11, 2007)

i think its silly to get annoyed that people have differant opinions, and wont do any petition any good,i do not get my dogs neutered, unless its for medical reasons, but then i only have dogs , i have also had bitches but never at same time as having a dog, i asked my vet about neutering and was told i cant see a good reason unless your having problems with them , but if i had a bitch to i maybe would think it might be nessary, if i didnt want to breed, i keep GSDS and all i have had have lived to a good age 12 yrs but i do think its up to the person to make there own choices,


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

How ludicrous to even suggest that preventing cancers and unwanted babies is cruel. And this is maybe why ten year olds havent the wisdom to be on an adult forum.


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2010)

Hahah oh wow. I honestlly didnt know there were people against spaying/neutering. 

So we are idiots for being good owners? You would rather 1000's more stray animals turned up on our streets?

If no one neutered their pets just think of how many dogs there would be running round the street, from when a dog gets out of the house or an accident in the park or even them running away off lead. 

Spaying can prolong their life, slim chances of illnesses and reduce frustration that a dog feels left un-neutered/spayed.

I have 3 un-neutered dogs and 1 neutered dog (1 because she was too old when we rescued her and 2 that I intend to breed from) all my cats are fixed and even my ferrets.

I am so...horrid. :scared:


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## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

Now I am confused this is slightly hypocritical don't ya think http://www.petforums.co.uk/1453262-post7.html

so cats can be fixed but DOGS is a no no :confused1:


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2010)

sue&harvey said:


> Now I am confused this is slightly hypocritical don't ya think http://www.petforums.co.uk/1453262-post7.html
> 
> so cats can be fixed but DOGS is a no no :confused1:


I think you will find that the OP has parents
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/96741-please-help.html

(not aimed at you Sue) 
I think this thread is a wasted opportunity to try and discuss and possibly influence peoples views. It's disappeared into insults


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## silly_girlie (Aug 5, 2008)

Lol this is too much. Don't feed the troll folks, this person was obviously sitting at home bored when they started this thread and decided they would try and wind some people up. I've seen this kind of thing on other forums. 

I have to say though, petforums members are doing a good job of not giving them the satisfaction! :thumbup:


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## pika (Apr 6, 2010)

I guess I'm a bad owner, I got Dascha spayed. She was a rescue and is afraid of other dogs, allowing the chance of her baring a litter and having pup's or having the possibility of a misshap and going through that would be terrible!!


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I must be the cruelest owner both mine castrated and the one before them going to get molly spayed when its the right time, i can tell that stupid original poster that i certainly felt the cruelest owner when harvey was so ill a few years ago all could have been avoided if ide have had him neutered.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I didn't realise the op was of such a young age.Perhaps it would be kinder to take this into consideration when replying.*


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## KathyM (Jul 30, 2008)

I completely and utterly back everyone's right to their own opinions, but having watched my old dog DIE because her previous owner hadn't spayed her young enough had a huge effect on our family. At the time I looked very thoroughly both into the risks and benefits of ovariohysterectomy in female dogs and I 150% back paediatric or pre-first season neutering in pet female dogs. I believe it is a different kettle of fish for male dogs, behaviourally and physically, but in bitches to me personally it is imperative to spay before the first season to prevent mammary cancer. That opinion is scientifically backed, unlike the childish and ignorant post at the beginning of this thread. :thumbup:


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

serpentseye said:


> Firstly - overpopulation. Now, sure, there are homeless pets, but isnt homeless better than mutilated?


For many dogs homelessness = death



> Now, secondly - pet's health. There is absolutely NO proof that spaying and neutering prolongs health. None.


There are peer-reviewed veterinary studies than document the net benefit of spaying.



> The last main reason is behaviour. Intact pets spray, chew and scratch furniture, and are more active. Its a fact. Dont change the pet to suit the environment, change the environment to suit the pet


.

Some forms of canine aggression can be moderated by neutering which is beneficial to both the dog in question and its enviroment.



> Have you ever noticed whenever anyone is giving you reasons to spay or neuter your pet, they always mention health benefits, but can never seem to present evidence to support them?


No.



> They also fail to acknowledge the health risks involved in the surgery


I don't fail to acknowledge the risks but, in listing (sensationally) a list of adverse effects without giving even nodding acquaintance with the benefits, you are being as partisan as you accuse others of being.



> Save lives-Dont spay!


Something of an oxymoron.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

KathyM said:


> I completely and utterly back everyone's right to their own opinions, but having watched my old dog DIE because her previous owner hadn't spayed her young enough had a huge effect on our family. At the time I looked very thoroughly both into the risks and benefits of ovariohysterectomy in female dogs and I 150% back paediatric or pre-first season neutering in pet female dogs. I believe it is a different kettle of fish for male dogs, behaviourally and physically, but in bitches to me personally it is imperative to spay before the first season to prevent mammary cancer. That opinion is scientifically backed, unlike the childish and ignorant post at the beginning of this thread. :thumbup:


I have to agree with you on seeing one of my boys suffer through not been neutered then i think these experiences changes the way we think, i have to say i would like to bet that all the people that think there are no health benefits to neutering or spaying hevnt seen a dog suffer from not doing so, and i can understand this to a point as some have owned dogs and have lived to a ripe old age with no problems from not having the op's but you only have to see 1 to change your mind.


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## Nakeshamoon (Jun 16, 2010)

Humm although i agree with alot of the points you make due to NOT being spayed AND not having any litters my 15year old dog ended up having to be spayed at 14 years old or she would of bled to death. Now if she had been allowed to have a pups the severe bleeding most likely would not of happened,she was adopted as a puppy and was born due to 'irresponsible breeding' she is a jackrussellx border collie, mum jack,her conformation is terrible. She was a very fit dog up until when she had to be spayed, the after effects have been terrible to watch, she has aged very quickly, she cannot walk aswell, she has a MASSIVE lump of scar tissue, most of her lower abdomen you can feel the scar tissue. She wets the bed. she cannot walk very far at all now. I blame the spaying for this, even though she is an elderly dog before the operation the only age related thing she had was her vision is not what it use to be and she has some spinal nerve damage, but you couldnt tell other than the odd trip.
i agree with you about how barbaric it is and how people 'own' animals. My parents decided to not get her spayed as they didnt know then what can happen if you do not allowed them to have pups. But really i think the bigger problem is the people breeding irresponsibly and for their own pleasure, the majority of the dogs i have seen in rescue centres are young hyper mixed breed dogs, i think cross breeding dogs is a good idea in the right circumstances but these people do not know what they are doing or are thinking about the dogs. I have two great cross bred dogs due to other people being cruel and irresponsible they are both now spayed and neutered. We have never had a problem with our male upto now and he 7 and a half,


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## tobyneilson (Jul 9, 2010)

IMO, all dogs and cats should be spayed,unless the owner can prove they are responsible enough to care for any litters properly.
One of the worst things that can happen IMO is for a irresponsible owner to have a dog that breeds,if they are irresponsible with the adult dog goodness knows how they will be with a litter and they wont care where the pups go to etc,so to me all pets should be spayed.
And the subject of iresponsible pet owners is a total different kettle of fish and dont get me started on that


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2010)

KathyM said:


> I completely and utterly back everyone's right to their own opinions, but having watched my old dog DIE because her previous owner hadn't spayed her young enough had a huge effect on our family. At the time I looked very thoroughly both into the risks and benefits of ovariohysterectomy in female dogs and I 150% back paediatric or pre-first season neutering in pet female dogs. I believe it is a different kettle of fish for male dogs, behaviourally and physically, but in bitches to me personally it is imperative to spay before the first season to prevent mammary cancer. That opinion is scientifically backed, unlike the childish and ignorant post at the beginning of this thread. :thumbup:


Can you post your finding on such early neutering?
In my understanding, the optimum age is 18months to 21/2 years.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

rona said:


> Can you post your finding on such early neutering?
> In my understanding, the optimum age is 18months to 21/2 years.


See thats a discussion i'm really interested in! Theres so many differing opinions on when to neuter/spay pets. We had our cat done at 6 months and he's great. Bronson was done at 18 months - we wanted to wait until he had recovered from his cruciate ligament operations first. Only one of his testicles descended too. However, some people I know say 6 months before they start to display any hormonal behaviours and others say the same as Rona, because it gives them a chance to fully develop and mature first? Would be interesting to hear peoples views. x


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## Paws&Claws (Aug 29, 2009)

The OP sounds like a child who has very strong opinions. From the thread they have already posted (brought to our attention by Rona) they sound like a child who does not want there puppy to be done...

Please remember posters that not everyone on here is an adult and therefore may not understand or appresiate other peoples opinions on a subject  x


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> See thats a discussion i'm really interested in! Theres so many differing opinions on when to neuter/spay pets. We had our cat done at 6 months and he's great. Bronson was done at 18 months - we wanted to wait until he had recovered from his cruciate ligament operations first. Only one of his testicles descended too. However, some people I know say 6 months before they start to display any hormonal behaviours and others say the same as Rona, because it gives them a chance to fully develop and mature first? Would be interesting to hear peoples views. x


Take a look at this thread - quite a lot of discussion about the best age to neuter and the dangers of early neutering

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/104601-do-dogs-grow-more-if-they-neutered.html


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Paws&Claws said:


> The OP sounds like a child who has very strong opinions. From the thread they have already posted (brought to our attention by Rona) they sound like a child who does not want there puppy to be done...
> 
> Please remember posters that not everyone on here is an adult and therefore *may not understand or appresiate other peoples opinions on a subject*  x


well they shouldn't be posting then because there are hundreds of members here all with differing opinions and life experiences, it doesn't have to be appreciated but it should be respected.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Im a fan of spay/neutering and the benefits def out weigh the risks. Although I do think its more of a dilemma with large breeds coz they have more risk of urinary incontinence/bone development issues then my little breeds.
Anthropomorphising animals is my pet peeve though. They cant make decsions for themselves which is why we do. (maybe if you are a little kid who's parents are bossing them around you might get more het up about it tho??).
Oh, and Ive had a very happy guinea pig and degu who both had the op and lived long lives with a harem of women about them!!


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

This could be a very interesting debate so lets keep it on topic, and remember this is about animals not humans..Jill


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## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

Harvey was neuter at 6MO. I did research the pros and cons although to actually find clear and concise information was tricky. The vet and I discussed at length, weather to leave until he had fully matured ie 18 MO, but decided to neuter then due to the social differences here. Many dogs are let to roam including Bitches in heat, that although Harvey would not be allowed to do this the risk, and nature of an intact dog, it was safer and fairer on him to be neutered. Also there have been health benefits to neutering earlier. 

She did quantify that a larger dog she would not neuter at this age, but leave until at least 12 MO, unless significant health risk


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2010)

sue&harvey said:


> Harvey was neuter at 6MO. I did research the pros and cons although to actually find clear and concise information was tricky. The vet and I discussed at length, weather to leave until he had fully matured ie 18 MO, but decided to neuter then due to the social differences here. Many dogs are let to roam including Bitches in heat, that although Harvey would not be allowed to do this the risk, and nature of an intact dog, it was safer and fairer on him to be neutered. Also there have been health benefits to neutering earlier.
> 
> She did quantify that a larger dog she would not neuter at this age, but leave until at least 12 MO, unless significant health risk


I think the size of the dog must be taken into consideration when making this decision. If you have a small breed then earlier spay would far out way the risks, however any dog over ESS size, the balance of advantage/risk gets more difficult to equate


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## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

rona said:


> I think the size of the dog must be taken into consideration when making this decision. If you have a small breed then earlier spay would far out way the risks, however any dog over ESS size, the balance of advantage/risk gets more difficult to equate


I agree, We were pretty sure Harvey was going to be a small/med dog, and the pros outweigh the cons for Harvey.

The only way I can see it has effected him loosing his manly jewels early is he still squats


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Nakeshamoon said:


> Humm although i agree with alot of the points you make due to NOT being spayed AND not having any litters my 15year old dog ended up having to be spayed at 14 years old or she would of bled to death. *Now if she had been allowed to have a pups the severe bleeding most likely would not of happened,*she was adopted as a puppy and was born due to 'irresponsible breeding' she is a jackrussellx border collie, mum jack,her conformation is terrible. She was a very fit dog up until when she had to be spayed, the after effects have been terrible to watch, she has aged very quickly, she cannot walk aswell, she has a MASSIVE lump of scar tissue, most of her lower abdomen you can feel the scar tissue. She wets the bed. she cannot walk very far at all now. I blame the spaying for this, even though she is an elderly dog before the operation the only age related thing she had was her vision is not what it use to be and she has some spinal nerve damage, but you couldnt tell other than the odd trip.
> i agree with you about how barbaric it is and how people 'own' animals. My parents decided to not get her spayed as they didnt know then what can happen if you do not allowed them to have pups. But really i think the bigger problem is the people breeding irresponsibly and for their own pleasure, the majority of the dogs i have seen in rescue centres are young hyper mixed breed dogs, i think cross breeding dogs is a good idea in the right circumstances but these people do not know what they are doing or are thinking about the dogs. I have two great cross bred dogs due to other people being cruel and irresponsible they are both now spayed and neutered. We have never had a problem with our male upto now and he 7 and a half,


You're a bit misinformed. Dogs that have a litter are just as prone to, or even more prone to pyometra, which is probably what caused your 14 year old dog's emergency spay. If you'd had her spayed at a young age she never would have gotten sick with it at all.


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## Petitepuppet (May 30, 2009)

All my cats have been done and so has my lil dog, I have even got a rat who has been castrated.

Next month my dalmatian is getting done. She has had 2 phantom pregnancys already and she is only 15 months old. She is also completely deaf. I work with dogs and somedays she comes with me so there was no question about her getting done.


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## nicola1980 (Oct 5, 2008)

serpentseye said:


> all people AGAINST the cruel and unusual punishment that is spaying and neutering, please sign this petition:
> 
> http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/stop-spaying-and-neutering
> 
> ...


ROFL! :lol: I will not say any more as you are only a child


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## gesic (Feb 19, 2009)

Apparently only speying before the first season will help prevent mammary cancer!
However i dont agree and would much pref a dog to mature prior to neutering.
My dog...not neutered due to nervous aggresion which would be worse if his testosterone was reduced.
Oh... had a cat the other month , just over a year old, pyo...weighed 6kg b4 op and 2 after.....biggest pyo (compared to size of animal) i have ever seen.
Yes she lived


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## katie200 (May 11, 2009)

i would alway my pet spay as a dog my mum had want sprayed and got piemeatra and end up haveing to her her wom taken away anyway and was ill so i think if your not going to breat you should spray or nuter your pets for they health


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

katie200 said:


> i would alway spray my pet as a dog my mum had want sprayed and got piemeatra and end up haveing to her her wom taken away anyway and was ill so i think if your not going to breat you should spray or nuter your pets for they health


Please stop peeing on you pets  

But I do agree. Unless you are going to breed from a pet, and do it the right way, you should neuter your pets.


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## katie200 (May 11, 2009)

Aurelia said:


> Please stop peeing on you pets
> 
> But I do agree. Unless you are going to breed from a pet, and do it the right way, you should neuter your pets.


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: oops :lol::lol:


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

nicola1980 said:


> ROFL! :lol: I will not say any more as you are only a child


I really dont think that this is a child.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> I really dont think that this is a child.


me either from there first posts I doubted it


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I have one dog who is not neutered, and another I waited a year to neuter, both for behavioural reasons. 
The entire dog is a terrified basket case due to dreadful treatment. I can`t imagine how much worse he`d be without testosterone so probably will never neuter him. He`s too frightened to go out so it isn`t a problem. 
My bitch was very aggressive and I retrained her before having her spayed as the hormone changes in a dominant aggressive bitch can make the problem worse. 
My other two are both ex-street dogs/ strays who had issues with entire males. They were both neutered and are now much more sociable. 
Neutering/ spaying is not a clear-cut decision. Even aside from the health reasons, the social and behavioural consequences need to be considered. 
Making sweeping generalisations doesn`t help owner or dog, so I think the OP needs to reconsider.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

True. I used to have a BC who wasnt neutered and he never marked or showed any interest in bitches.
However I was counting the days til I could neuter Adam!! He was cocking his leg in the house and on people, chasing after other dogs, and humping everything in sight!! Even now he still marks stuff when out, humps his teddy bear and gets over excited at sexy looking Westie's!!


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## ladyg110 (Nov 22, 2009)

I must be a bad owner too then! All my animals are spayed/nuetered - because I care about all animals and want the best for them. Over popuation is not an 'excuse' it is REAL, and it is happening right now. Dogs and cats are put to sleep all over the world all the time because there are simply not enough homes, and if I can prevent a few unwanted litters being born here and there by spaying neutering all the dogs & cats I own or rehome, then I will continue to do so.
Homeless animals end up in shelters, put to sleep, injured, mistreated, starve... the list is endless. Sorry but I fail to see how that is better than owners acting responsiby and neutering/spaying the animals they love.


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

We had Breeze spayed in February after rehoming her in Jan from a "breeder".
I think that she's a lot happier living as a spayed bitch than the puppy-machine she was before we took her on, that and she's not going to have to run the risk of Pyometra and other such health implications in the future.

Scooter is intact but he's my mother's dog and it was her decision to only neuter him if it was "necessary" (if he started getting out to chase bitches etc), we haven't had any problems with him. However if he were mine then he'd have been neutered.

If spaying and neutering was banned (which it won't be) the dog population would balloon and thousands upon thousands more dogs will be put down in pounds and shelters than there are today.
There are already too many dogs dying in shelters. Do you really think that banning sterilisation is going to help the canine population?


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## katie200 (May 11, 2009)

Thorne said:


> We had Breeze spayed in February after rehoming her in Jan from a "breeder".
> I think that she's a lot happier living as a spayed bitch than the puppy-machine she was before we took her on, that and she's not going to have to run the risk of Pyometra and other such health implications in the future.
> 
> Scooter is intact but he's my mother's dog and it was her decision to only neuter him if it was "necessary" (if he started getting out to chase bitches etc), we haven't had any problems with him. However if he were mine then he'd have been neutered.
> ...


i total agree the benefits way out the negative of neutering/spaying i think they are too meny puppy /kitten being put down or liveing in shealther


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Whilst I'm of the mind to believe the OP was intent on composing and posting a little bit of an incendiary device I have never had, nor found, the need to have any of my dogs (always kept in multiples) neutralised. Ever. I would only agree to have such an operation carried out if it was for beneficial health reasons. 
Other than that I suppose it's all down to personal choice and convenience and see nothing wrong with spey/neutering provided the procedure is carried out at the correct age. (Something which appears to be a bone of contention on this site) :frown:


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

There are beneficial health reasons, i wouldnt risk a dog becoming so ill again i will always take that precaution


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Folks, you're aware that the OP copy and pasted word for word the content of her original post from the link she also provided?

And unless she also copied a comment on the link about the article/vote then her name is Olivia. I always thought she was a he for some reason!


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

Aurelia said:


> . I always thought she was a he for some reason!


so did i!!! i should just stop assuming stuff im nearly always wrong lol


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## XbecksX (Apr 20, 2008)

what a load of tosh!


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## Kaitlyn (Apr 28, 2010)

It saved Tiggrs life, Cassie will be done to stop her going down the same road and Harley will be done as i don't want a smelly house from tom cat spray.

If that makes me a bad owner then yay me  

Sorry but a child telling us we're cruel for stopping our pets becoming ill through Pyo or putting their puppies and kittens at the dangers of BYB sheds and dog fighting rings.... gimme a break!


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2010)

gesic said:


> Apparently only speying before the first season will help prevent mammary cancer!
> However i dont agree and would much pref a dog to mature prior to neutering.
> My dog...not neutered due to nervous aggresion which would be worse if his testosterone was reduced.
> Oh... had a cat the other month , just over a year old, pyo...weighed 6kg b4 op and 2 after.....biggest pyo (compared to size of animal) i have ever seen.
> Yes she lived


I was under the impression that although it doesn't prevent mammary cancer, bitches up to 21/2 years old have % protection decreasing from pre season to no benefit after this age.
It certainly stops the risk of PYO, whatever the age


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Aurelia said:


> Folks, you're aware that the OP copy and pasted word for word the content of her original post from the link she also provided?
> 
> And unless she also copied a comment on the link about the article/vote then her name is Olivia. I always thought she was a he for some reason!


I always thought he is a he, isn't he a he then:


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

simplysardonic said:


> I always thought he is a he, isn't he a he then:


No olivia apparently or could have been oliver :lol: ime confused now.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

i had to have Dotty spayed (maine coon) for her health, I am so glad i did she is alot happier now and gaining weight nicely


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

If people didnt get their dogs spayed/neutered gawd knows how many more there would be in rescue


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Add me to the list of cruel owners, we had Amber sprayed and when Dillon is old enough we shall have him castrated.


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## ploddingon (Jun 15, 2010)

If I remember rightly you have raised this issue in other threads.

Doing so again only shows that you have a lot of growing up to do and cannot take the fact that a lot of people, older and wiser than you, hold a different point of view.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Kinjilabs said:


> If people didnt get their dogs spayed/neutered gawd knows how many more there would be in rescue


Thats not necessarily true. I have never had any dog of mine spayed/neutered and none have ever had the opportunity to reproduce and, therefore, didnt produce pups which were destined to become the statistics of a rescue centre.


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

> Thats not necessarily true. I have never had any dog of mine spayed/neutered and none have ever had the opportunity to reproduce and, therefore, didnt produce pups which were destined to become the statistics of a rescue centre.


Thats because you can be responsible but sadly a great deal of the general population isn't responsible or knowledgable enough to worry about/ stop their unneutered dogs breeding unintentionally or not.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Crazy mad forum.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

sequeena said:


> Crazy mad forum.


Thats why we love it :lol:


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Serpentseye...
Is this becaue your parents don't like spending money? you have posted that on another thread or is this one of your vendetta's as is the other thread you started re Sarah Palin.... 

You dont half start some weird threads... and the thing is if you are prepared to start them you must take everyones views into account.. 

You can't see you backside and have an eppy all the time!


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

I've got a feeling it's a bit of attention seeking


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

hawksport said:


> I've got a feeling it's a bit of attention seeking


Yeah quite possibly.. all very strange.. I got to the point I gave up reading the thread...


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

the OP is only ten if I recall.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

sequeena said:


> the OP is only ten if I recall.


That's right


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

If she is only 10 where does she come up with all this stuff??? You sure she is only 10?


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

momentofmadness said:


> If she is only 10 where does she come up with all this stuff??? You sure she is only 10?


Don't know. Without evidence to suggest otherwise I'd have to say yes


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

sequeena said:


> Don't know. Without evidence to suggest otherwise I'd have to say yes


mmmm well Am not so sure hhahaha especially after reading some threads... I will leave the age an open thing in my head and try not let it bother me..


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

canuckjill said:


> This could be a very interesting debate so lets keep it on topic, and remember this is about animals not humans..Jill


It is about animals not humans but the OP has quoted quite a lot of things about hmans being " nutered" as they are overpopulating the world etc.
You cannot compare Animals with humans and the starving in Africa I believe were given Condoms to try and control both overpopulation and to prevent the spread of Aids.

As has been mentioned the OP is supposed to be very young

i'm ten years old and doing my sats today, thankfully for me english onnly.. my school (st peter chanel ) is awful. No discipline at all. 
therefor would find the practice of nutering cruel as they probably dont understand what they are talking about 

That being said I think the OP has been quite rude calling people Idiots and if they want to be on this forum and gain respect for their beliefs then they should be prepared to listen to other peoples views and beliefs.

Quoted from Op post a while back

i'm thinking how to avoid getting my dog spayed, i think neutering is fine but spaying is not 

Just shows that OP is young ,very oppinionated and confused
__________________


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Ime almost certain that this poster is an adult that starts a thread to wind everyone up and if you notice only posts the first page or 2 with a load of abuse and attitude to get everyone going hen we dont see anything fron the person again, not sure wether its male or female dont think any of us do but sure its an adult.


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## Maz&Oozy (Mar 29, 2010)

yep me to, add me to the list I must be a bad person :001_cool: and I do wonder aswell if her threads are just started to cause controversy! tho is someone apparently so young occ they are worded very well ??


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## tiddlypup (Oct 4, 2008)

wow,this looks like a kid thats just discovered PETA,this is the sort of crap they spout


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Strangely, in Norway, neutering a dog is illegal under the animal welfare act, unless for a medical reason.


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2010)

Snoringbear said:


> Strangely, in Norway, neutering a dog is illegal under the animal welfare act, unless for a medical reason.


Can you expand on that statement?
I find that an interesting concept


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## Linzi23 (Jun 24, 2010)

Add me to the bad owner list!!....tilly is spayed before her first season as we have a male who hasnt been done & i dont want her getting caught pregnant. if she got caught preg before she was 1 surely thats bad for her. also i couldnt give the pups to anyone. She recoverd after her op and healed fine but it hasnt calmed her down!!


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Linzi23 said:


> Add me to the bad owner list!!....tilly is spayed before her first season as we have a male who hasnt been done & i dont want her getting caught pregnant. if she got caught preg before she was 1 surely thats bad for her. also i couldnt give the pups to anyone. She recoverd after her op and healed fine but it hasnt calmed her down!!


Its your choice if you spay your pets... :~)


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2010)

rona said:


> Can you expand on that statement?
> I find that an interesting concept


Apparently 
"In Norway, _it is seen as being unethical to neuter animals to make them easier to handle_: *as a result it is illegal to castrate dogs *(the term "castrate" is also applied to females in Norway). Admittedly, there isn't a dog overpopulation problem in Norway (which would mean that people would see less of a need to neuter dogs anyway), and *it is legal to neuter horses, cats and pigs*"

accd' to Society Against Neutering ::

Seems strange to only apply to dogs not other animals? But it may be due to the fact there are no stray dogs in norway (apparently), but there are stray cats. (horses and pigs, i have no idea... i doubt there are many stray pigs about, but it may have more to do with there status - not a "pet" like a dog, but livestock)


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## Linzi23 (Jun 24, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> Its your choice if you spay your pets... :~)


Exactly and i believe that having her done was the best option for her and i dont regret it.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

I'll be a bad owner too, if I have my way, as Roo is going to get done because I like to know that if I let him off the lead he isn't going to do anthing naughty to a bitch that's going to have consequences, such as another unwanted litter.

Plus, there are 2 bitches at the yard that are entire and I don't want him doing the dirty with them.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Horse and Hound said:


> I'll be a bad owner too, if I have my way, as Roo is going to get done because I like to know that if I let him off the lead he isn't going to do anthing naughty to a bitch that's going to have consequences, such as another unwanted litter.
> 
> Plus, there are 2 bitches at the yard that are entire and I don't want him doing the dirty with them.


LOL Gawd, I bet he is running round in his element at the min.. LMAO


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> LOL Gawd, I bet he is running round in his element at the min.. LMAO


Luckily the only thing he humps at the moment is his bed. 

The OH doesn't want him doing, and we've had some rather heated rows about it, but I'll get my way in the end as I'll just pull the "He's actually MY dog anyway so pi** off" line out if needs be!


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

serpentseye said:


> if you love your animals why do you mutilate them like this??????


What a strange comment?! 

It's not mutilation, it's called responsible dog ownership and protecting your *pet* as well as an unnecesary offspring.

Another of your comments:



> Furthermore, the only reason we spay or neuter is to make pets more manageable.We need to stop the horrible cruelty that is spaying and neutering, stop the pain and danger and violation of animal rights. There is no argument for mutilating pets for owners' sakes. Save lives-Don't spay!


I'm sorry but until you've worked in or even considered that animal rescues in this country see countless unnecesary, unplanned and uncared for litters you would understand why spaying and neutering is recommended and important. 
Not only is there decreased likelihood of the pet developing some forms of cancers but spaying and neutering can sometimes be linked to behavioural improvements in overarroused/agitated pets and can in some cases contribute to the success of rehabilitation programs.

Thousands of unwanted dogs die everyday in our country, many the result of unplanned pregnancies. What makes it worse is that their deaths could have been prevented. 
Hundreds of pregnant bitches come into rescue daily, abandonned by their humans, left in appauling conditions, sometimes veterinary care cannot save them, the damage has already been done. 
IMO, many dogs (owning to factors such as temperament, specific/personal health problems) should not be bred from and yet they are, either accidentally or because of human greed. You can guess where they are to be found- yep in rescue and they often stay there for a long while- many are never fotunate enough to have another person give them a chance. Nobody wants a dog with "issues", a crippled dog 

I can appreciate that in many cases it may be unnecesary and important that some pets are not neutered whether for health reasons or because the person wants to responsibly breed from them to better the breed and make for happier, better adapted pet dogs who will be a fabulous addition to a family. Who can argue with that? 
But why, not spay/neuter and then not be vigilant enough. Why produce unwanted litters, only to end up in rescues or PTS where there is no room for them. Our rescue centres are bursting at the seams with unwanted dogs. They try their best but they need to help of responsible dog owners.

It is the dogs that suffer at the end of the day!


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

rona said:


> Can you expand on that statement?
> I find that an interesting concept


I think SavahL has explained it, I'm not sure if it's the same in other scandinavian countries though.


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2010)

I am a bad owner too...

There are too may dogs being bred from for money!!

Most of these dogs end up in rescues homeless.

Some people who breed have no idea about it and just see the dogs as cash machines.

I spayed both my older dogs (obviously when they were ready) as I had no reason to keep them entire.

It wipes out the risk of uterus cancer, mammary gland cancer and has been proved to prolong their healthy lives.

My puppy, when she is old enough, will be spayed too.

As long as people do it at the right time, when they have had a season and the hormones are level after 3 months then it is benficial to the dogs.

Males - wipes out the risk of testicular cancer etc
Females - uterus cancer

If you're not planning on breeding then there is every reason to get them neutered and spayed.

Humans do such things, hysterectomies etc...

If it was really that cruel, then vets wouldn't be doing it.

This really annoys me, you walk around the rescues and there are either dogs that have been bred from and bred from, or puppies that are a result of over breeding....this is whats WRONG not the neutering or spaying.

GRRR I could rant for ages, I do not consider myself a bad owner!!

*Need for dog neutering*

To control pet over population.
To prevent the occurence of medical problems associated with hormonal imbalance.
To make your dog as better pet.

Spaying/neutering removes the risk of pregnancy.

Pet overpopulation is a serious issue and by allowing your dog to have litters, you are adding to the problem. Finding homes for your new family additions is not as easy as you may think. Even if you choose to keep the puppies, you now have the additional cost of vaccines, parasite control, toys and food for several pets. In addition to costs, the health of the mother can be in jeopardy during delivery. Some new mothers can have serious complications delivering puppies and can even develop health problems during nursing.

All these potential problems can be avoided by spaying your dog.

Spaying makes for a cleaner, calmer dog.

Without the drive to mate, your dog may be quieter and not prone to an incessant need to seek out a mate. The spayed dog no longer attracts males and their annoying advances and serenades. Dogs won't have a bloody discharge for several days while they are in heat. Without proper protective products, the discharge can stain sofas, bedding and carpets. Spayed pets are also easier to get along with. They tend to be more gentle and affectionate.

Spaying keeps your dog healthier.

A final positive aspect of spaying your dog is that spayed pets tend to have fewer health problems. Spaying is the removal of the ovaries and uterus. Without these organs, ovarian cysts, uterine infections and cancer of the reproductive tract are no longer a concern. Studies have shown that dogs spayed before puberty have a significantly lower chance of developing breast cancer than unspayed dogs or dogs spayed later in life.

xxx


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Im not against spaying, but i believe people who breed for money wouldnt get their dogs spayed anyway so its mostly the average pet owner who spayes to make their own lifes easier. Which is ok, not everyone is in a position to keep their dogs seperated while the bitch is in heat.

My both dogs are entire, i have no problems preventing accidents, but its hard work twice a year and getting my male done would make my life easier but i can cope alright at the moment so dont see a reason for getting him done.


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> Im not against spaying, but i believe people who breed for money wouldnt get their dogs spayed anyway so its mostly the average pet owner who spayes to make their own lifes easier. Which is ok, not everyone is in a position to keep their dogs seperated while the bitch is in heat.
> 
> My both dogs are entire, i have no problems preventing accidents, but its hard work twice a year and getting my male done would make my life easier but i can cope alright at the moment so dont see a reason for getting him done.


I didnt get my dogs neutured to make MY life better.

I got my dog neutured to make HIS life better. I dont want my dog to get cancer etc. and If an accident did occur I wouldnt want him to catch an STD.

Do you not think a dogs life is better without the sexual urges? Would you want to be constantly horny and not get to do anything about it. I know for most men this can be very frustrating, so I can only imagine it can be the same for male dogs.


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2010)

Phoenix&Charlie'sMum said:


> I didnt get my dogs neutured to make MY life better.
> 
> I got my dog neutured to make HIS life better. I dont want my dog to get cancer etc. and If an accident did occur I wouldnt want him to catch an STD.
> 
> Do you not think a dogs life is better without the sexual urges? Would you want to be constantly horny and not get to do anything about it. I know for most men this can be very frustrating, so I can only imagine it can be the same for male dogs.


AGREE!! xxx


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2010)

How is it making my life better? I didn't do it for that, I can cope with 3 entire bitches, but I did it to put THEIR health first, to eliminate the risk of cancers, to eliminate the risk of phantom pregnancies and accidents. I am not breeding from them, so therefore there is no need to not of got them spayed otherwise the risk of cancers would still be there. 

I am not a selfish person, I didn't do it thinking of myself, I did it thinking of them.

xx


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

i think this is an each to their own thing and also depends on the animal. Blaze for example isnt castrated he lives with other dogs, never shows any bad behaviours like humping etc, I asked the vets about getting him done and was told its best hes left whole as he has a very quiet nature anyway,


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Phoenix&Charlie'sMum said:


> I didnt get my dogs neutured to make MY life better.
> 
> I got my dog neutured to make HIS life better. I dont want my dog to get cancer etc. and If an accident did occur I wouldnt want him to catch an STD.
> 
> Do you not think a dogs life is better without the sexual urges? Would you want to be constantly horny and not get to do anything about it. I know for most men this can be very frustrating, so I can only imagine it can be the same for male dogs.


I understand the cancer risk, and like i said im not against spaying. But spaying has its risks too, its a operation which brings all sorts of different and maybe life threatening risks with it.

My dogs life is not affected in bad way cause they are not spayed. I keep them seperated so they are not suffering from temptation all the time  But it makes MY life harder to ensure they are properly seperated.

But if i wouldnt be in the position where i couldnt seperate them i would get them done too of course.


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2010)

I think the case to get bitches spayed is a lot more clear cut regarding health than it is for dogs.
Castration brings it's own risks for the health of a dog that I am not certain out way the benefits


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## sarybeagle (Nov 4, 2009)

Bella is being spayed weds and this is purely for medical reasons (although I had intended to spay in September) she is constantly getting uti's and infections and possibly start of pyometra hence urgent spay on weds


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Ignoring the first post on this thread it always boils down to this!

Responsible owners will fully research ALL the associated risks with speying/neutering vs leaving entire. Their decision will be based on evaluation of those facts, and their own personal circumstances for the future wellbeing of their pet.

Irresponsible owners will not bother with the research, will not ever even have considered neutering/speying and without full knowledge of either consequenses their dogs will be more at risk.


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Both my boys have been neutered, with Alf it was part of the adoption policy. But I have to add that it did take away the aggressive tendancies that were showing, whether that was due to the neutering or the fact that he was learning to trust us, who knows and we never will do either.
Arnie, temperment wise, he's such a happy, friendly little soul that neutering was'nt really on our agenda, until about three months ago. He started getting wanderlust, this from a dog that never went more than 30/40 ft from me, would suddenly start to disappear, he was miserable and not interested in play etc. Then the day came that finally made the decision for us. He caught the scent of a bitch in season and was gone. I really thought I'd lost him. It was a very warm, clammy evening so I told hubs that we'd only walk down the field (two streams in it) for half hr to let the boys stretch their legs and then be home, in the end I was gone for just over an hr, Arnie had gone, I saw him run off the field twice and then back on. No recall at all, blind and totally deaf to me, this from a dog I call my shadow. Eventually I saw him in the distance, he had collapsed whether in the heat or total exhaustion or a combination I dont know. When he saw me he tried to stand and collapsed again. He was carried to the car.  The following night after a walk in the woods, I stopped at the pub to pick hubs up and have a swift one myself, this pub is about half mile from said field, for the half hr I was there, Arnie howled and constantly pulled to go to the field. Now after neuteringI have my loving little boy back, who's still bouncy and friendly and back to not straying too far from me. He's also happy again, actually he's driven me mad as he seems to be reverting back to his attention seeking puppyhood. 
By the way found out a wk or two later, that someone had had a stand up row with a guy that was walking his goldie round the fields while she was in season.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Village missing an idiot here whilst I am at work.

I have every pet I have owned neutered except the rabbits, the fish, the chickens and the tortoise. 

Having siad that the fish never bred, the tortoise wasn't given the opportunity, the chickens were bred from and the resulting hens and cocks eaten and we ate the rabbit off spring too as there were so many of man y of them also.

Only joking about the rabbit offspring we just put them in a bucket of water. Only joking about that too, we just burned them,. Only kidding. We rehomed them to good homes an kept a few back before deciding after the first litter it is easier to keep them seperated then to raise a litter. From there on I realised just how much hard work it would be to continuously breed things.

I celebrated my findings by having a rabbit omlette. Only kidding. 




I didn't use any eggs


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2010)

hutch6 said:


> Village missing an idiot here whilst I am at work.
> 
> I have every pet I have owned neutered except the rabbits, the fish, the chickens and the tortoise.
> 
> ...


lol...confused..but laughing so much I could pee!! xx


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

keeleyjane19 said:


> Do you really think we do it for torture?


Am I the only one then?

After having loads of pets that can be neutered I have practiced various ways doing it and have come up with the following Hutch's Top Tackle Removing Tips:

Boy animals.

Get them stuffed toys, shoes, mannequin legs and set up a knocking shop scenario for your dog. Scatter some shoes out on the floor, throw some stuffed toys into a corner so it looks like the V.I.P area and borrow some friend's socks or tights to place on the mannequin legs so they have that arousing aroma of "Someone new and unconquered", I like to call it "Le Hump - pour chien!". You might want to poor concrete into the empty legs casts to give them rigidity and stability.

Now lead in the dog, release him from the collar and press play on the stereo to activate the LL Cool J - Barry White mix CD that you will have to pre-organise.

Leave the dog in there and after about 4 days he will have humped and grinded so much it will have all fallen off according to many parents out there who have had a teenage son - "If you play with it too much it'll drop off!".

For The Bitch in your life:

Subscribe to Sky+ and record as many episodes of Jeremy Kyle as you possibly can.

In the meantime train your dog to watch the TV - dog chocolates, dog wine and a nice comfy warm room is all that is really required.

Now leave your dog in the room whilst the full 40hours of Jeremy Kyle is relayed into your dog's head.

There is no way on Earth any female will trust any male again after watching the One Man Crusader To Be The Only Saint With A Penis In The World go at it for that long.

For good measure I find a quick dose of bath and kitchen sealent silicone in the right place will do the job just as good. Try to get the mould resistant stuff though so she if fresh and happy to go rollerblading, hang out with friends in a trendy wine bar or do cartwheels on the beach. She should'nt have to let her season slow her down after all.

Good luck :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

*IMPORTANT: this is only meant as a joke and should not be tried at home as it is against animal cruelty to subject any living lifeform to such an extended period of Jeremy Kyle. With silicone, results may vary.*


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

lol.

Loved the IMPORTANT note too. :thumbup::lol:


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## sarybeagle (Nov 4, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> Am I the only one then?
> 
> After having loads of pets that can be neutered I have practiced various ways doing it and have come up with the following Hutch's Top Tackle Removing Tips:
> 
> ...


omfg!!! I am killing myself laughing!!


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## Olly's Mum (Feb 10, 2010)

Troll Alert!! 

But for the record - I have had all my dogs and rabbits neutered and will do the sane to ted when he is old enough.

I dont consider it mutilation, i am protecting them from un-neccesary illnesses. Alot of which can only occur in intact animals.


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2010)

hutch6 said:


> Am I the only one then?
> 
> After having loads of pets that can be neutered I have practiced various ways doing it and have come up with the following Hutch's Top Tackle Removing Tips:
> 
> ...


Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!! That is superb!!!! Literally wetting myself with laughter!!!! :thumbup: xxx


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

lmao hutch your on form today! :lol:


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## ploddingon (Jun 15, 2010)

excellent!!:lol:


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

OMG so this is the thread causing the ripple LOL that was a bit of a rant,, can't read the whole thread as I can imagine the answers LOL .


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

I know three guys who had male dogs they refused to get done and all three had to be castrated at the age of 12 plus due to testicular cancer - far more risky. I don't know what the stats are for such things?

As a matter of interest, out of all the dogs that come through the rescue there has only ever been 1 who has had a problem after spaying (and it wasn't directly spaying related). Gorgeous girl been tied to a lamp post all night and half the day came into our care. Was booked into be spayed and turned out she had some kind of blood clotting disorder which wasn't found out about until it was too late. I like to believe the owners who dumped here didn't know this else her life could have probably been saved.


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

I guess I am evil personified in the eyes of the OP. Running a breed specific rescue, we have been responsible for the neutering of well over 300 unwanted Siberian Huskies over the past three years or so. We could pretend that we do it so that they don't go on to produce more generations of unwanted dogs; so that irresponsible owners don't use them as money-making machines; and so that they don't unnecessarily swell the numbers of unwanted dogs filling rescues all over the country. We could claim all those things, but in reality of course, we are just unfeeling swine who love to trample on the rights of poor animals.
:arf::lol::arf::lol::arf:

Mick


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

raindog said:


> I guess I am evil personified in the eyes of the OP. Running a breed specific rescue, we have been responsible for the neutering of well over 300 unwanted Siberian Huskies over the past three years or so. We could pretend that we do it so that they don't go on to produce more generations of unwanted dogs; so that irresponsible owners don't use them as money-making machines; and so that they don't unnecessarily swell the numbers of unwanted dogs filling rescues all over the country. We could claim all those things, but in reality of course, we are just unfeeling swine who love to trample on the rights of poor animals.
> :arf::lol::arf::lol::arf:
> 
> Mick


your an evil man i tell yer! :lol:


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

this is the silliest thread i've ever seen.

Here's what I think is the simple answer to this debate...

the positives FAR outweigh the negatives.

and obviously animals can't tell us they don't want to be spayed or neutered but I think given the choice of either being left entire with all those hormones fizzing around and having your 'natural urges' denied and quashed, or being neutered and preventing the stress/anxiety brought on by the prevention to express those urges then i'm sure the animals would pick neutering. That's without thinking about the possible prevention of different cancers and infections.

Spays/neuters are so widely done these days that the likelihood of it going wrong are very slim.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

All of my dogs are neutered. So is the cat and the rabbits. I have had no complaints from any of them and none have suffered as a result of not being bred from. There's so many good arguements for neutering animals and very few solid ones against.


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

serpentseye said:


> all people AGAINST the cruel and unusual punishment that is spaying and neutering, please sign this petition:
> 
> http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/stop-spaying-and-neutering
> *
> ...


I'm also a bad owner, just had my boy snipped last week.


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## Novak's Mum (Jan 20, 2010)

Where I'm originally from, during the 90's we saw a massive boom in the homeless dogs and cat population, and it broke my heart at the time to see the large amounts of cats and dogs that I so desperatly wanted to give a home to, it convinced me that neutering and spaying was the way forward. 

My first dog (Ricky, the wirehaired Daschund and Portuguese hound dog cross) was one of the lucky ones and we took him in, along with our first cat, and another 2 dogs and cat. But i dread to think the amount of strays that were captured and ultimately PTS as a result of not enough homes being found or like most places, short on funds to support the ever-growing population. 

Novak will be getting done once he reaches 18 months. My cat was done, as was my rabbit. The snakes have not been done, but being kept in separate tanks rules out any unwanted mating going on, unless Houdinin reincarnated ans is now lording it up with the females. 

It's each person's decision to neuter or not their pet, but hardly constitutes as mutilation, that I imagine would be allowing animals to breed indiscriminately and as pointed out here, passing on illnesses to already unwanted litters. 

Interesting topic, but I agree with the statement that the positives of neutering/spaying have a stronger position than to not neuter.

So, i guess I'm a horrid owner, with a spaying/neutering spree spaning 2 decades... I can live with that.


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

I am all for getting dogs spayed and neutered,you only have to look at the rescues that are full up,and the adverts in papers/internet to see the amount od unwanted puppies that are around,both of my dogs were "unwanted by someone",Jack was found on the street in a box with another puppy, just left there by someone who didnt care what happened to them,Rusty was also an unwanted puppy,bred by someone who just saw £ signs in believe,both of my dogs were "done" at 6 mnths old,and i do not feel guilty about it,if anything i can feel proud that i will not be part of the generation that just wants to breed from my dogs.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Another idiot here :thumbup:

I did my homework before deciding, cant put the clock back and wouldnt want to. Stand my by decision 110%:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Serpentseye - please, please give me a logical reason for the verbal (typed?) abuse and name calling.

I am very pro-neutering, because having at looked at all the facts and the arguements from both sides it makes the most sense to me.

1) Neutering is not cruel. It is carried out under a full general anaesthetic by professional vets. Pain relief is usually given. It is very low risk these days.

2) Approximately 9000 stray dogs are destroyed every year in the UK due to a lack of homes. that doesn't inc all those ex-racing greyhounds that don't make it into rescue, or those pts at their owners request, or those that die on the streets.... 

Neutering is the only 100% guarantee that your pet can not add to the overpopulation at any stage.

Even if you could "be careful" there is still the risk your pet could escape, or another get in, or what if you needed to rehome - would the next owner breed? Personally I prefer the certainty.

3) Neutering has been proven to reduce or prevent inidence of various diseases.

In some animals, neutering is absolutely vital. Anyone who owns an entuire female rabbit or ferret is an animal abuser in my book (unless a responsible breeder or taking suitable alternative precautions). The vast majority of entire female rabbits are dead by the age of 5 from uterine cancer, and female ferrets remain in season until they are bred - leading to aplastic anaemia which is fatal.

4) It is also known to have a positive effect on various behaviours, particularly roaming, marking and same sex aggression. Seeing as euthanasia due to behaviour problems is one of the biggest killers in dogs I would say neutering is well worth it here.

5) Have you watched entire animals that are not allowed to mate? the dog driven crazy because the bitch next door is on heat? Females of various species going through horrendous phantom pregnancies? Cats yowling day and night?

Surely it is far worse to have this massive desire to breed but be unable to do so, than to simply not desire it in the first place?

well, that's my two pence worth. If that makes me a b*****d so be it.


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## *WillsTillsBills* (May 12, 2009)

I think we can all say this has gone beyond a debate and on to name calling. I don't thinks theres any point in responding to the OP as they don't want to hear other peoples views and oppinions.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

This thread has been moderated, by a kind mod who had the time I didn't have. Please keep no more insults to members or the human race. ...Jill

my view is that each person has to weigh the pros and cons and make a decision that is best for there pet. I have one girl who can't be spayed as she would not survive surgery, but if I had known I would have had her spayed as a pup...Jill


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

I think there needs to be an age limit on this forum.

Dont think it is appropriate for a 10 year old to be a) using that language and b) seeing the language.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Phoenix&Charlie'sMum said:


> I think there needs to be an age limit on this forum.
> 
> Dont think it is appropriate for a 10 year old to be a) using that language and b) seeing the language.


I agree its not right at all.


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## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

Phoenix&Charlie'sMum said:


> I think there needs to be an age limit on this forum.
> 
> Dont think it is appropriate for a 10 year old to be a) using that language and b) seeing the language.





Waterlily said:


> I agree its not right at all.


It would be sad to exclude all younger members because of one persons disrespectful behaviour, and imaturity. Some of them make great contributions to the forum. The individual should be excluded, if they misuse the forum imo


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

sue&harvey said:


> It would be sad to exclude all younger members because of one persons disrespectful behaviour, and imaturity. Some of them make great contributions to the forum. The individual should be excluded, if they misuse the forum imo


I dont think its right mainly because they are to naive and it should be up to there parents to get info on pets at ten anyway. I have a ten year old and he would never be on a forum unless it was a pac man one


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## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

Waterlily said:


> I dont think its right mainly because they are to naive and it should be up to there parents to get info on pets at ten anyway. I have a ten year old and he would never be on a forum unless it was a pac man one


I agree, personally 10 is to young, but members like Incas mum are really mature, at 13 (she may have had her birthday  )


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2010)

serpentseye said:


> if you love your animals why do you mutilate them like this??????


With respect, that is absolute rubbish.

The only reason animals have these organs is to have babies regularly. As we do not let them do that then the life cycle is incomplete and things stop working correctly which can then lead to health issues, more so with a bitch.

The reason we dont do this to humans is that on the whole, we use our reproductive organs, some much more than others.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

sue&harvey said:


> I agree, personally 10 is to young, but members like Incas mum are really mature, at 13 (she may have had her birthday  )


yeah of course I meant kids ten or eleven.


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## thereasa (Jan 18, 2010)

rona said:


> http://epirev.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/20/2/204.pdf
> Quote
> One of the first pieces of information to be learned
> about cancer etiology in dogs was that spaying protects
> ...


well informed & very well said:thumbup:


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

Waterlily said:


> yeah of course I meant kids ten or eleven.


Yeah I too meant very young children. Surely they shouldnt be on any site without adult supervision??

My mum and dad didnt let me use the internet unsupervised until I was 15!! Not that he thought I was immature, just because he knew how dangerous chat sites were.

Maybe they should change this to add if the child is under 15 then they should get written consent from an adult to join up?


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## nfp20 (Jun 29, 2010)

honestly what a load of nonsense. The only difference between people and animals is that we make a conscious decision not to have or to have children. 

Long gone are the days where animals especially dogs that are of the pet variety were in the wild where breeding would have been done on the basis of the alpha dog and bitch only breeding where nature would have controlled numbers by available food resources and natural balance. 

Show some responsibility for your pets and their actions it is blatantly unfair to allow a dog to breed in the way that you are suggesting because nature would have it that on every season she would be in pup and how cruel is that?? Exhausting a poor animal because of misguided beliefs. Dogs are pack animals and the pack would dictate breeding if they were still wolves and not the pets that we have made them. So they would not all have been breeding... how does that fit in to your theory???


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Can this be kept on topic please, and not be turned into a discussion about the OP.


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> Can this be kept on topic please, and not be turned into a discussion about the OP.


Bit pointless when the OP doesnt want to hear other peoples opinions dont you think?

I was discussing the forum not the OP.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Phoenix&Charlie'sMum said:


> Bit pointless when the OP doesnt want to hear other peoples opinions dont you think?
> 
> I was discussing the forum not the OP.


Regardless of the Op's own opinion, they have raised an interesting point/issue.

The OP didnt make the petition, and its no different to any other member finding it, posting it, and opening a debate.


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## thereasa (Jan 18, 2010)

EmCHammer said:


> Perhaps the original poster would like to go down to their local dog pound and help when its time for all the overbred dogs and staffies to be put to sleep. 10,000 stray dogs were put down last year in the UK (and thats just the statistics from the local authorities who return their figures) - but hey sure it doesn't matter if the figures get worse cos the OP won't have to be there to mop up the pieces, never mind those poor dogs who spend their last week frightened and alone in a pound before being destroyed.
> 
> I see the petition has a whopping 40 signatures.
> 
> ...


Dont start me on cats, when i worked for a charity I & the local vets took 96 from 1 house in a week! Maybe the OP would like to see some of the foto,s from that case....90% of which were suffering from cat flu, blown eye balls, deformities & malnutrition all because the owner had got 2 kittens from a farm & didnt believe in speying....madness!!!


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

serpentseye said:


> if you love your animals why do you mutilate them like this??????


because if i didnt spay dotty she would of became ill, she was so thin. Now she has been spayed she is a lot more happier and healthier. To the OP what would you do if an animal of yours needed neutering for example it had Pyo or you had a cat similar to Dotty? I just find your comments rather rude. For the record theirs no question I do love my animals.


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

Can i ask the OP just what do you recommend people do ,if they do not spay/neuter their animals and they continue yr after yr to have unwanted puppies,where do these puppies end up??? ,also do you really think its kind to let these animals have litter after litter,because that is what will happen,
For me being a caring and responsible dog owner is getting my dogs "done"


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

Snoringbear said:


> I think SavahL has explained it, I'm not sure if it's the same in other scandinavian countries though.


I was having a look into it and saw an article on it recently - will try and dig it out - apparently *neutering is regarded as a mutilation and is actually prohibited by law in Scandinavia AND in Germany*! Neutering is allowed for medical reasons.

They picked out Norway to do a comparison and apparently 80% of dogs in the UK are neutered compared with only 7% in Norway. It has been like this for some time and yet Norway still do not have any significant problem with stray dogs...

Also an interesting point I didnt know is that *in continental european countries where neutering IS carried out, most females have an ovarioectomy rather than an ovariohysterectomy *(i.e. just the ovaries removed rather than ovaries AND womb).

In another article I was looking at there was a load of research on the % of prevention of the different cancers etc from early/late spaying and it really is not a clear cut decision when it comes to bitches...I will find it and post as it was really interesting.

For the record, I have maggie spayed and am not against it but I definitely think it is something that should not be just done because thats what you are supposed to do...we are not 'supposed' to do anything - we should weigh up the pros and cons for our particular circumstances and do what we feel is best for our animals


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## cosmicjade26 (Jul 12, 2010)

"A spayed dog is a healthier dog. Higher hormone levels are associated with a higher risk of developing cancer and other diseases. Spaying or neutering a dog lowers hormone levels, thereby reducing the dog's health risks."

Read more at Suite101: Should I Spay My Dog?: The Pros and Cons of Spaying Dogs, Health Benefits of Spaying Pets Should I Spay My Dog?: The Pros and Cons of Spaying Dogs, Health Benefits of Spaying Pets

For this reason alone i will be spaying my bitch, as i would like Kyra to have a long happy life with us, i will be a bad owner and an obvious mutilator, all because i love her.

And the only reasons for not spaying are 'showing' a dog , and breeding, and if people want to breed (responsibly of coarse) they can spay after the litters have been produced, which for our Kyra she will be doing neither.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Well all of my pack are mutilated. Look at their miserable little faces, poor things!








I hate the lot of them so much that I had them all neutered. What a bad mother I am! :001_wub: (Think my tongue just got stuck in my cheek!)


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Well all of my pack are mutilated. Look at their miserable little faces, poor things!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you cruel cruel mummy!!!

by the way there beautiful!


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

Having read around this subject a lot, I still think that I would spay my next bitch as well, but based on weighing up the different cancer risks from early spaying/not spaying etc I would wait until that bitch was at least 12 months old and then spay before she was 2.5 years old.

Waiting until after 12 months (or when their bones have majority developed) appears to greatly reduce any risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer). But by spaying as early as pos before 2.5 years, this keeps the risk much lower for mammary tumors - the most common malignant tumors in female dogs. Just my opinion from weighing up pros and cons.

This is the article I was reading recently that I mentioned in my earlier post - I actually have a newer version but cannot link it as it is in a magazine which is subscription only - so this is a couple of years old but I think still valid. The article is a collation of different epidemiological research studies of dogs and presents the facts quite clearly and then looks at each in more detail. I thought it was very interesting and each of the points is fully referenced in the full article.

*Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay / Neuter in Dogs*
Laura J. Sanborn, M.S.
May 14, 2007
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/longtermhealtheffectsofspayneuterindogs.pdf

*Summary of the key pros and cons they look at:

On the positive side, neutering male dogs*
• eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer
• reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)

*On the negative side, neutering male dogs*
• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
• increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
• triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

*On the positive side, spaying female dogs*
• if done before 2.5 years of age, greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors, the most common
malignant tumors in female dogs
• nearly eliminates the risk of pyometra, which otherwise would affect about 23% of intact female
dogs; pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• removes the very small risk (0.5%) from uterine, cervical, and ovarian tumors

*On the negative side, spaying female dogs*
• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis
• increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by
a factor of >5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6-2, a common health problem in dogs with many
associated health problems
• causes urinary "spay incontinence" in 4-20% of female dogs
• increases the risk of persistent or recurring urinary tract infections by a factor of 3-4
• increases the risk of recessed vulva, vaginal dermatitis, and vaginitis, especially for female dogs
spayed before puberty
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract tumors
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Great post Katiefranke. :thumbup: 

I have had 7 dogs and five bitches neutered in my lifetime and never had any related problems as described though. My sister has had two dogs and two bitches neutered and again none had those problems, neither did my mums three dogs. I am not saying that these problems don't occur - they undoubtedly do. But they aren't common and the pros, though numerically less than the cons, mean that neutering is still a good idea from a health point of view. But it is up to the individual whether or not they have their dogs neutered and it is not up to anyone else to decry those who don't or those who do.


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## rocio (Jul 13, 2010)

Here in Spain there is a horrendous problem with stray dogs and cats.Responsible pet ownership is pretty non existent in Spain.They hate to neuter ANY animal sooooo one sees entire males in all the human owned species------donkeys,horses,ponies,cats and dogs.Everybody wants a foal out of their mare and they believe that cats and dogs should be free (quite literally!) to do what comes naturally.The result is a multitude of animals seeking homes which are few and far between,especially in this time of crisis.Most of the animal rescue places are foreign run,mainly British.There are even horse rescues here now.

In contrast,in Germany and I believe Belgium,where they run a strict neutering of dogs and cats policy,there is a SHORTAGE of puppies.The result of this is that many of the ill treated,abandoned Spanish dogs and puppies find new homes in these countries.They are all neutered before they go to their new home.

It´s bad enough for a poor unloved,unwanted dog to be turfed out of a so called home,into the heat and danger of a hostile Spanish countryside without it meeting up with an in season bitch and them producing 10 or whatever puppies and so on ad infinitum.A major neutering programme would certainly put the brakes on the amount of abandoned animals but I doubt if any Spanish would support it-------it´s not macho!

I have 4 dogs.One,an Italian Spinone is neutered as she suffered from metritis and had to be neutered to save her life.Charlie chihuahua is neutered as I don´t want him mating his mother in one of my unguarded moments.Fin,the GSD is entire.The spinone,10 years of age now, suffers from urine leakage at times.Her weight (and Charlies)is controlled by diet and exercise,much as it for me and my husband!!!

Neutering isn´t a blanket cure all but I think it definately has a place in responsible pet ownership.


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> am not saying that these problems don't occur - they undoubtedly do. But they aren't common and the pros, though numerically less than the cons, mean that neutering is still a good idea from a health point of view.


Yes I tend to agree...the ones I am most worried about are the cancers and the pyo I guess, having a bitch (and getting another next year)... and the bone cancer risk appears to be more of an issue for medium-large+ sized breeds.

Mammary cancer is very common in entire bitches it seems so i would def be concerned about leaving a bitch entire (unless for health reasons of some kind) past a couple of years old...

It is another one of those issues where there doesnt really appeat to be a definite answer and as always it is down to what the owner feels most comfortable with/feels will suit their animal & circumstances


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

katiefranke said:


> Having read around this subject a lot, I still think that I would spay my next bitch as well, but based on weighing up the different cancer risks from early spaying/not spaying etc I would wait until that bitch was at least 12 months old and then spay before she was 2.5 years old.
> 
> Waiting until after 12 months (or when their bones have majority developed) appears to greatly reduce any risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer). But by spaying as early as pos before 2.5 years, this keeps the risk much lower for mammary tumors - the most common malignant tumors in female dogs. Just my opinion from weighing up pros and cons.
> 
> ...


This is a really interesting post. Looking at these figures it would seem that, for both dogs and bitches, the cons of neutering outweigh the pros. That has now got me wondering just why neutering is so widely accepted in this country as more beneficial than not. Certainly, going by the owners on here who have neutered their dogs, it has been done because owners truly believe that they are doing something to help their dog be more healthy and live longer - but if these figures are true, that does not seem to be the case. I wonder if that is why it is looked upon as a mutilation rather than a benefit in some countries?


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## Nellybelly (Jul 20, 2009)

I just want to say from experience.
I won't get all scientific as the health benefits and problems have been analysed already.

I had my boy Nelson done at 2 years old, after he had escaped 3 times after bitches on heat, and many heartbreaking nights for both me and him, of howling. After he was neutered, I never ever looked back. He never escaped again, we could walk past a bitch in heat and he was totally unphased, which meant he could be walked off lead (which was not possible when he was entire and there were bitches in heat)...For me just these 2 reasons made his quality of life so much better after neutering...he was happier less frustrated dog!

Now I have Bella. She had a dreadful first season followed by a phantom pregnancy and then beginning stages of pyo. She swelled up unbelievably during her season, bled very heavily, she had tummy upsets and was generally not a happy girl. On top of it, we had male dogs calling from outside the house, she had to be walked at odd hours and on lead only.
I had her spayed at 11 months old...
I don't regret it at all. In her case, her health really suffered when she was in heat and she wasn't able to enjoy her life as fully as she did before she was in season/after she was spayed. She never really recovered after her season as she then got demodex, then the phantom, then beginning of pyo...the best I'd seen her since before her season was one week after spay. She hasn't suffered any adverse effects as far as I can tell and I'm relieved we don;t have to go through another season and all that it entails


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## axact (Jul 18, 2010)

I read some (not all 18 pages ! ) of the posts here and am still undecided on the issue BUT

My 1st dog got pyometra in 2006 and I had to have her 'done' Vets never explained much about it to me.Also the bill came in at £500

My other dog got pyometra in 2009 and that killed her. The vets bill in this case was £420 (different area, different vets)

Had I of been aware that 23% of bitches get this disease and it's life threatening I think I would have had them done unless of course there is a vaccination for it ?


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

axact said:


> I read some (not all 18 pages ! ) of the posts here and am still undecided on the issue BUT
> 
> My 1st dog got pyometra in 2006 and I had to have her 'done' Vets never explained much about it to me.Also the bill came in at £500
> 
> ...


Ah thats awfull... i lost my hamster to Pyometra the week before xmas... My vet said if I had her done I could have revented it... So sad...

My mates bitch went to be done at 6 months she got a call from the vet half way through.. He said the womb was a mess and if he hadn't taken it when he did the dog would have been dead within a couple of months... No symptoms with it... Just goes to show you..xxx


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## Nellybelly (Jul 20, 2009)

axact said:


> I read some (not all 18 pages ! ) of the posts here and am still undecided on the issue BUT
> 
> My 1st dog got pyometra in 2006 and I had to have her 'done' Vets never explained much about it to me.Also the bill came in at £500
> 
> ...


NO there isn't a vaccination for pyometra. It si not an infectious condition. It is an infection of the womb. Spaying eliminates the risk of this as the womb is removed in the ovariohysterectomy operation,


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

Can't be bothered to read all the comments but to the OP I have a very simple and easy reason why I 'mutilate' my dogs (as I am doing to myself soon too...care to comment on my choice of opted surgery????:lol BECAUSE I'VE WITNESSED THE NEEDLESS CRUEL HORRIFIC DEATH OF 100'S IF NOT 1000'S OF UNWANTED DOGS.

I've offered you before and I'll offer again, you care to join me on a pound run or even better come and witness a healthy dog being killed because it has no home then just shout. I'm sure the vet will even allow you to hold the dog down as it dies. :thumbup:


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> This is a really interesting post. Looking at these figures it would seem that, for both dogs and bitches, the cons of neutering outweigh the pros. That has now got me wondering just why neutering is so widely accepted in this country as more beneficial than not. Certainly, going by the owners on here who have neutered their dogs, it has been done because owners truly believe that they are doing something to help their dog be more healthy and live longer - but if these figures are true, that does not seem to be the case. I wonder if that is why it is looked upon as a mutilation rather than a benefit in some countries?


I think you have to take into consideration the severity and incidence of each condition. Orthopedic problems which are highlighted as a negative, would not be such a problem if neutering was undertaken when mature I believe.
I still believe that neutering the bitch is of benefit, though all my bitches have remanded intact without problems.
With dogs the picture is less clear cut


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

axact said:


> I read some (not all 18 pages ! ) of the posts here and am still undecided on the issue BUT
> 
> My 1st dog got pyometra in 2006 and I had to have her 'done' Vets never explained much about it to me.Also the bill came in at £500
> 
> ...


I am sorry to hear about your girls  it is a condition most breeders are acutely aware of as their girls get older.

I did feel that the original post was way OTT  and could make people who made a decision to neuter for the right reasons feel guilty or concerned for being responsible 

My take on neutering is this, I am generally against it before 12 months (or bitches before their first season) and loathe the almost blanket 6 month policy a lot of vets seem to have 

With Males, there so appear to be more riisks through neutering than not - however, if your dog is a humper, wanderer etc - then it makes sense. One of my puppy owners had a terrible humper, and while it was nothing to do with me, she did put a good case to me for neutering at 10 months, and I totally understand and support her reasons for doing so.

One size doesn't fit all - and I think every case has to be treated on it's own merits - if we looked at the risks and statistics we wouldn't do anything and that includes breeding, neutering, vaccinating - in fact, it is unlikely many of us would bother having dogs at all, and wouldn't the world and our lives be a sadder place if that happened?

My 7.5 year old will probably be neutered after this season just gone, and my 4.5 year old who will never be bred from, more than likely next year.

My boy will never be neutered unless there arises a very good reason for doing so.

====================

I do think owners need to be comfortable with the decision they make, and for the majority of pet bitch owners, I would envisage this would be neutering - and for this, I can't envisage many valid reasons for doing it before the first season.

It would most certainly help reduce the number of unwanted litters if people did neuter their girls early on, and would also make life easier for dog owners, where the risks from neutering are higher.

If you look at that sentence, every element of it carries a risk -

the neutering - the operation itself and any immediate or longer after affects, 
the not neutering and risking an unsupervised mating, 
the bitch having a postmate injection if she is mated, 
the bitch having the litter if the mating goes un-noticed - 
the increased risk to the offspring if the parents are unhealth-tested.

If the bitch isn't neutered - the later on risk of Pyo 

Every single element of it carries a risk


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

rona said:


> I think you have to take into consideration the severity and incidence of each condition. Orthopedic problems which are highlighted as a negative, would not be such a problem if neutering was undertaken when mature I believe.
> I still believe that neutering the bitch is of benefit, though all my bitches have remanded intact without problems.
> With dogs the picture is less clear cut


It's such a minefield, isn't it? The only thing I am sure about is that no neutering should be done before the dog or bitch is fully mature, but after that it's down to weighing up circumstances for and against, and circumstances will be different for each breed and each person. My dogs and bitches are all intact, except for Gabby (who had pyo after her first season) and Baggio (who had the snip just the other week because of a testicular tumour). On the other hand, my cats have all been neutered - but I have to admit that was done for practical purposes rather than health considerations. (don't know if that makes me a bad owner or not, but I didn't want to be responsible for the toms siring kittens all over the village, or for my queen to keep getting pregnant)


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## Terr (Mar 2, 2010)

My un-castrated labrador ran after a bitch in heat and was stolen. My dad's un-castrated golden retriever has testicular cancer.

I'm castrating my dog when he's a bit older.


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## wiiztec (Jul 22, 2010)

I find it appalling that there is so few dissenting opinions on this issue, what makes humans think they have the right to restrict an animals population? What makes humans think that killing the sex drive of our pets for the sake of our convenience is morally acceptable?


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## bucksmum (Jul 19, 2009)

wiiztec said:


> I find it appalling that there is so few dissenting opinions on this issue, what makes humans think they have the right to restrict an animals population? What makes humans think that killing the sex drive of our pets for the sake of our convenience is morally acceptable?
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Go away


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

wiiztec said:


> I find it appalling that there is so few dissenting opinions on this issue, what makes humans think they have the right to restrict an animals population? *What makes humans think that killing the sex drive of our pets for the sake of our convenience is morally acceptable?*


 What makes you think it isn't?


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## wiiztec (Jul 22, 2010)

bucksmum said:


> Go away


NO! 

you go away


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## wiiztec (Jul 22, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> What makes you think it isn't?


My sense of justice


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

wiiztec said:


> My sense of justice


Can you not sleep or something hun?


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## wiiztec (Jul 22, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> Can you not sleep or something hun?


If I couldn't get my mind off this I wouldn't be able to.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

wiiztec said:


> If I couldn't get my mind off this I wouldn't be able to.


Lots of animals lives are saved through this procedure.. Are you quite happy tolet your pet die because you disagree so strongly about speying neutering??


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

wiiztec said:


> I find it appalling that there is so few dissenting opinions on this issue, what makes humans think they have the right to restrict an animals population? What makes humans think that killing the sex drive of our pets for the sake of our convenience is morally acceptable?
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

wiiztec said:


> If I couldn't get my mind off this I wouldn't be able to.


If you believe so strongly about this, why not try to give us your reasons why? Back it up with facts and references to research by reputable societies. Instead of just trying to make people feel bad for making a moral decision that you do not agree with.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

serpentseye said:


> Spaying also creates urinary 'spay incontinence' a urinary tract disease that requires tremendously expensive urinary tract food, and monthly x-ray checkups.


where did THIS '*fact*' come from?

the incidence of spay-incontinence is low - *this implies 100% of spayed-Fs are urinary-incompetent, 
which is a ridiculous statement. * 
from VET-INFO.com: Canine Spay 


> EXCERPT - *bold + underline added - *
> 
> When an ovariohysterectomy (OHE) is performed prior to the first heat period in a female dog, the risk of mammary cancer later in life is less than 1%. When OHE is performed between the first and second heat periods the risk is about 8% of mammary cancer later in life. Anytime after the second heat period the risk of mammary cancer in female dogs is about 25%, whether an OHE is performed later, or not. This is perhaps the strongest argument for spaying female dogs.
> 
> ...


so let's review - 
* 90% of spayed-Fs are no fatter than they would have been, INTACT 
* urinary incontinence is *treatable* and i have never heard of SPAY Diets - 
what label is that on? *what brand sells spay dog-food? *

the actual RISK of spay-incontinence: 
*The relationship of urinary incontinence to early spaying in bitches
Journal of Reproduction and Fertility, Suppl. 2001;57:233-6. 
Stöcklin-Gautschi NM, Hässig M, Reichler IM, Hubler M, Arnold S.
Dept of Reproduction, Veterinary Faculty of Zurich, Winterthurerstrasse 260, CH-8057 Zurich, Switzerland. * 
The relationship of urinary incontinence to early ... [J Reprod Fertil Suppl. 2001] - PubMed result 


> EXCERPT - *bold added - *
> 
> With regard to the risk of mammary tumours, *early spaying* (before the first-oestrus) *must be recommended because the incidence of tumours is reduced considerably.* The aim of the present study was to *determine whether early spaying also reduces the risk of urinary incontinence.*
> The owners of *206 bitches that had been spayed before their first oestrus and for at least 3 years* were questioned on the occurrence of urinary incontinence as a result of spaying.
> At the time of the enquiry the average age of the bitches was 6.5 years, and the *average age at the time of surgery was 7.1 months. Urinary incontinence after spaying occurred in 9.7% of bitches.* This incidence is *approximately half that of spaying after the first oestrus. *


* less than 10% of these dogs developed spay-incontinence 
* ELDERLY bitches past 7-YO in large-breeds and past 10-YO in small breeds develop urinary incontinence, 
not due to *spaying* but age + muscle-tone.

more on RISK + TREATMENT -



> EXCERPT - *bold added - *
> 
> Frequency
> # *About 20 percent of dogs experience incontinence at some point* (in their lives), *but only a small number of these incidents are a direct result of being spayed.*
> ...



*## - where's the special diet? 
## - where's the MONTHLY X-ray? 
## - where's the LIFELONG treatment? '...most dogs will recover completely.'*

* fewer than 1 in 5 large-breed, HIGHER-risk Fs are spay-incontinent at some time in their life - 
more than 80% of higher-risk, large-breed spayed-Fs never have the problem.

* bitches spayed before their 1st-estrus have a less-than-10% spay-incontinence - 
meaning 90% never have this in their lifetime.

* most Fs who DO develop spay-incontinence recover with treatment.



serpentseye said:


> In ALL spayed and neutered pets, obesity is a huge issue. Spaying and neutering upsets a pet's hormonal balance, which make them less active and therefore drastically increases obesity. These operations make dogs three times more likely to be overweight, and cats 2 times.


to be blunt, this is sheer horse-apples - 
_*over-40% of all pets in the USA are now clinically obese: over 30% of their body-wt is FAT - 
M or F, old or young, intact or desexed - Fat, Fat, Fat. * Feeding a dog or cat an appropriate amount of food, 
NOT free-feeding and NOT giving fattening treats + leftovers to pets - meat-trimmings, chicken-skin, gravy, candy, leftover meat, bread, cereal with milk as a treat, etc - is the CURE for preventing a fat-pet.

if Ur pet is fat, then a diet that reduces calories In + exercise to increase work Out will reduce that flab. 
filling the bowl is a human-responsibility - MEASURING not eyeballing is the 1st step to healthy weight. _


serpentseye said:


> Every day, thousands of pets getting spayed or neutered will die on the operating table, or from complications. Dont take the risk!


the risk of S/N surgery is minimal - 
the odds of a British pet-cat roaming at large, being HIT by a car, are much, much higher. 
MORBIDITY - Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay/Neuter in Dogs 


> EXCERPT - *bold added - *
> 
> At one veterinary teaching hospital where complications were tracked, the rates of intraoperative, postoperative and total complications were 6.3%, 14.1% and 20.6%, respectively as a result of spaying female dogs1. Other studies found a rate of total complications from spaying of 17.7%2 and 23%3. A study of Canadian veterinary private practitioners found complication rates of 22% and 19% for spaying female dogs and neutering male dogs, respectively.
> 
> *Serious complications* such as infections, abscesses, rupture of the surgical wound, and chewed out sutures were reported at a *1 - 4%* frequency, with spay and castration surgeries accounting for 90% and 10% of these complications, respectively. *The death rate due to complications from spay/neuter is low, at around 0.1%*


* between 1 + 4% of dogs have a serious complication - 
PUTTING A CONE-COLLAR on the dog prevents chewed-sutures. :001_huh:
* 0.1 per-cent is 0.1 deaths per 100 dogs, meaning 1 dog in 1,000 dies.

PEDIATRIC S/N + risk - 
*pediatric S/N is done at under-4-MO, generally by shelters + rescues before placing adoptees.*
Early Spay & Neuter 


> *bold added - *
> 
> The reasons for spaying and neutering are compelling.
> Overpopulation and the resulting mass euthanasia and neglect.
> ...





serpentseye said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> This surgery is also very painful. Many people will argue this, saying it is completely painless. I ask those people: *Have you ever watching someone spay a pet? Have you watched them sit in a cage as the anesthetic wears off, howling and yowling in pain?* I have, and it's utterly heartbreaking.


again - this is exaggeration + hyperbole - 
i have played nurse to many pets, post-surgery, post-trauma, new-mothers, etc. 
NONE of the post-spay patients that i have cared-for, NONE of my personal-pets post-spay, 
and NONE of my clients spayed-Fs *howled and yowled in pain.* 
any soreness is generally internal, and lasts approx 48-hours in ADULT-pets, not in juvies; juveniles heal faster, 
have fewer complications, less pain, and less scarring internally.

any animal who is in pain SHOULD be getting medication - they have that now, U know. 
most spayed-Fs only need an anti-inflammatory for the 1st 2 to 3 days - 
they must be monitored to ensure that BECAUSE they feel fine, they don't jump around more than they ought. 
if they felt so awful, the risk of popping a stitch by jumping off the bookcase would not exist.

if U want people to take U seriously, *serpent, U have to use FACTS - not emotional blackmail + fantasy, IMO.

seriously irritated, 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> I find it appalling that there is so few dissenting opinions...
> *what makes humans think they have the right to restrict* an animals population?


* these are DOMESTIC species - 
domestic means 'of the house', IOW not wild but human-affiliated + human-created. 
the breeding of domestic species is a human-choice of sire + dam.

* we have a responsibility to ensure that domestic animals are cared-for - 
irresponsibly allowing EVERY animal to breed is a lousy standard of care. 
------ not all individuals are fit to breed 
------ not all individuals have a home waiting for them 
------- domestic-animals that are NOT cared for, suffer - 
they cannot compete with wild animals for food; that is fair neither to wildlings nor domestic spp 
they cannot survive without human-support [EXCEPT for cats, many die but they breed in even-larger numbers 
than die - domestic-cats are a burden as ferals and a danger to many species]

* feeding them is our responsibility - as is vet-care, shelter, clean environs, good husbandry 
* the fact that their care is on our tab gives us the right to limit numbers - 
our wallet? our decision.


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## love_my_pets (Feb 2, 2010)

JSR said:


> Can't be bothered to read all the comments but to the OP I have a very simple and easy reason why I 'mutilate' my dogs (as I am doing to myself soon too...care to comment on my choice of opted surgery????:lol BECAUSE I'VE WITNESSED THE NEEDLESS CRUEL HORRIFIC DEATH OF 100'S IF NOT 1000'S OF UNWANTED DOGS.
> 
> I've offered you before and I'll offer again, you care to join me on a pound run or even better come and witness a healthy dog being killed because it has no home then just shout. I'm sure the vet will even allow you to hold the dog down as it dies. :thumbup:


My view is the same as JSR- Maybe the OP should take JSR up on the offer to witness the destruction of healthy dogs and see what the OP's views are after looking a healthy dog in the eye whilst the needle is being inserted into it's leg and being PTS???


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

Leashed - The site you have quoted regarding the risks of mammary tumour has repeated the common error of presenting the risk as absolute. It is not, it is a relative risk.

Still a good reason to spay but not to the extent indicated.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I have edited part of this again. Please remember comparing humans to domestic animals isn't called for....Thank you


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## AlexArt (Apr 25, 2010)

My pets are all neutered so they don't create more unwanted animals. All my cats are feral - I have set traps up to catch them, no-one in my area neuters their cats as they are seen by most as vermin. They are hunted with terriers and more often than not are shot, or die after being wounded or hit by cars and starving to death after getting injuries preventing them from hunting!! 
All the ones I have caught have been in poor physical condition, full of fleas/worms/ear mites/rotten teeth on older ones/abscesses etc. All are now healthy and happy - but there are tons more wandering about that are not neutered breeding like wildfire and dying horribly, leading very short lives and in poor condition - all of which would have been prevented if they were neutered! - so which would you rather have???

As for pets putting on weight when neutered - it is simple feed them less - problem solved it's not rocket science!!!!
I think the advantages of neutering far out weigh those of not neutering. After working in a vets for years we used to get a lot of serious cases of uterine infections in un-neutered bitches - basically their uterus was filled with litres of pus making them really sick and often killing them. We also used to get a lot of male dogs with testicular cancers which neutering would have prevented, I only saw one bitch with urinary incontinence resulting from a spey out of hundreds. We also saw a good few bitches die whilst whelping.

Also is it not cruel to have an entire male or female dog with tons of hormones surging through its body telling it to reproduce and then being denied that instinct because its owner, quite sensibly, doesn't want 200 dogs living in their house - neutering stops that and you have a happy pet!!


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

My dogs aren't fat at all and they are all neutered! Also, if spaying and neutering was not allowed, I would not be able to give a home to both sexes would I which would be a shame. 

People have such strong opinions and one side always seeks to force their opinions on others. Live and let live I say but don't anyone dare to ever tell me that I am cruel for having my dogs neutered! It is absolutely none of anyone elses business anyway! They are happy and healthy and that is all that matters, not what anyone else thinks!


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

The only cruel thing is allowing a dog to live with the chances of getting ilnesses that neutering or speying can reduce, i saw harvey suffer needlessly i wish i had hin done much earlier, as for getting fat what an excuse for having a wrongly fed,fat dog, harvey is 10 next month neutered and a very lean lad, because he is fed correctly and its taken into account he is neutered.


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## Charlottex (Jul 15, 2010)

I know everyone has their own opinions but I think this is a case of wording things appropriately or actually keeping your opinions to yourself. 
I must be a rubbish owner, thats why whenever my dog is ill, he gets seen at the vets right away, always has lots of food never runs out, is watered, is clean and is completely loved.... 
Shame I am such an awful owner for having him neutered... 
Oh well, Hendrix still loves me! :thumbup:


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## staflove (Sep 4, 2008)

God i hate these subjects, go to the pound and see the dogs thrown away cos they have med the knobheads money and now dont want them, go look in to there eyes and look when there belly is touching the floor because all they ever wanted her for his a breeding machine then tell me spaying is not a good idea


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## wiiztec (Jul 22, 2010)

Humans are so wasteful stray animals could easily live off all the food we throw away, but we don't like them going through our trash because of the mess they make, **** the animals, as long as we don't have to clean up trash right?

Spaying/neutering your pet does not save any lives, it prevents lives from coming into being. The fact that animal "shelters" kill animals that they can no longer afford to "care" for has no direct relation to responsible pet owners deciding not to have their pet's sex organs cut off. It's amazing how many people who say they rescued their pet from a shelter don't realize how right they really are. Shelters arn't shelters they're prisons, prisons where every inmate in on death row desperately hoping to be paroled with provisions such as having your sex organs removed if they haven't been already, and depending on the adopter; never being able to go outside of your new owner's home. Imagine if there were such "shelters" for emaciated children in Africa, would that be acceptable?



AlexArt said:


> Also is it not cruel to have an entire male or female dog with tons of hormones surging through its body telling it to reproduce and then being denied that instinct because its owner, quite sensibly, doesn't want 200 dogs living in their house - neutering stops that and you have a happy pet!!


There are better ways if you're really dead set on denying your dogs their right to posterity, with vasectomys and tubal ligations they can have all the sex they want and no puppies will result from it.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

wiiztec said:


> There are better ways if you're really dead set on denying your dogs their right to posterity, with vasectomys and tubal ligations they can have all the sex they want and no puppies will result from it.


 how many matings have you actually attended? Dogs are domesticated animals, and as such often need a considerable amount of help to mate.

I am sure in years gone by in the wild, both males and females died during mating - and it can happen now if dogs were permitted to have sex whenever they wanted -what a wild whacky and totally ignorant statement to make.

===================================

As for dogs ending up in rescues, yes, I have my own views on that - but they more often than not end up there because the breeders failed to consider the consequences of breeding and responsible homing - so - lets just bring more irresponsibly bred puppies into the world, a large proportion of which will end up going the same way 

Or - just let our dogs s**g to their hearts content, and blow the consequences of seriously injured dogs and bitches who could bleed to death before you can get them to a vet because you think neutering is cruel.

I am really not sure whether to laugh or cry


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## wiiztec (Jul 22, 2010)

swarthy said:


> how many matings have you actually attended? Dogs are domesticated animals, and as such often need a considerable amount of help to mate.


Granted I have never personally seen dogs breed in person, but after reading this I tried to find some corroborating information on the internet and couldn't find much of anything. Now the question is how many matings have you been to? Are you sure you've been to enough to assume all domestic dogs have trouble mating on their own? And if it's so difficult for them to mate on their own then what's the deal with all the overpopulation propaganda?



> I am sure in years gone by in the wild, both males and females died during mating


Yes and before modern medicine human mothers often died giving birth as well. Your point?


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## Amy&Ted (Jul 14, 2010)

Blimey... this is all too heavy for me 

I thought when dogs mated they "stuck together" afterwards due to swelling? Can't see an animal doing that "for fun"


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Is this some sort of wind up? Ok, I have had dogs all my life and never felt the need to have one neuteured (I have never owned a bitch). My newfoundland, Ferdie, was a different story. From the age of 10 months, he tried to hump everybody and everything. I could not let him off his lead because he tried to jump on all the other dogs. Bearing in mind that he was 10 stone at the time and is now 12 stone, he could have caused serious damage. He couldn't play with the other dogs, never got off his lead, and on occasion I had to keep his lead on in the house when I had a visitor. He got himself in such a state, that he was miserable. I did not want to get him done, I was hoping he might grow out of it. So, I gave in and had him castrated. Now he can go play with whoever he likes, people are not afraid to come and see him for fear of getting jumped on, and he is a much happier dog. So, in your opinion, do you think I should have let him go take his frustration out on some poor little dog that came along, causing the owner of that dog no doubt to decide he was dangerous?

I had him castrated for his wellbeing, not for mine.

How many kittens get dumped all the time because people can't be bothered to get their cats spayed or neutered? How many puppies get dump because a randy dog gets out?

You are being utterly ridiculous.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

wiiztec said:


> Granted I have never personally seen dogs breed in person, but after reading this I tried to find some corroborating information on the internet and couldn't find much of anything. Now the question is how many matings have you been to?


As a breeder and stud dog owner, quite clearly far more than you



wiiztec said:


> Yes and before modern medicine human mothers often died giving birth as well. Your point?


.
my point is, dogs WILL die if they are left to their own devices, even the flirtiest bitch can panic and try to run when the tie occurs.

I suggest you spend some time visiting those rescues you claim are 'propoganda' - because believe me they are not.

As for all these 'unplanned and unexpected' litters that occur - the fact that often the dogs weren't out of their owners sight long enough for even a short tie to have occured suggests that many of them could happen through slip matings - but as neither you, me, nor the owners were there, we cannot know for sure.

What I do know however, is that a dog and bitch can know exactly what they are doing until the moment of the tie, and then all hell can break loose - hence why you never leave them unsupervised.


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## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

wiiztec said:


> Spaying/neutering your pet does not save any lives,


Ever owned a bitch that suffered from Pyometra??? Spaying prevents this, or if the Bitch is intact it SAVES HER LIFE! And how can a dog have testicular cancer if the owner made the decision to have him neutered? I consider this to prevent needing to save his life from this condition, but if you prefer to wait for the disease to invade the dogs system causing pain and suffering, thats your choice.



wiiztec said:


> It's amazing how many people who say they rescued their pet from a shelter don't realize how right they really are. Shelters arn't shelters they're prisons.


Prisons that prevent the dog from being killed on a road, or taken from irrisponsible owners who refused their dog treatment, or an elderly person who passed away, sadly leaving their pet with nobody to care for it, and the list goes on.



wiiztec said:


> There are better ways if you're really dead set on denying your dogs their right to posterity, with vasectomys and tubal ligations they can have all the sex they want and no puppies will result from it.


How many vets suggest this then? What is the cost, how do they preform the procedure and what is the difference really?


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Pity we havnt heard from the original poster in a long time, likes to wind up and watch everyone go. Reading the whole of this thread goes to prove that neutering or spaying isnt a bad thing everyone seems of the same mind on here.


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## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> Pity we havnt heard from the original poster in a long time, likes to wind up and watch everyone go. Reading the whole of this thread goes to prove that neutering or spaying isnt a bad thing everyone seems of the same mind on here.


I'd agree with that, and a grand total of 43 have signed, not many seeing as 5836 people have viewed this thread


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## wiiztec (Jul 22, 2010)

sue&harvey said:


> Ever owned a bitch that suffered from Pyometra??? Spaying prevents this, or if the Bitch is intact it SAVES HER LIFE! And how can a dog have testicular cancer if the owner made the decision to have him neutered? I consider this to prevent needing to save his life from this condition, but if you prefer to wait for the disease to invade the dogs system causing pain and suffering, thats your choice.


 I was referring to people correlating unspayed/neutered pets with animals being killed in shelters, obviously there are exceptions when they are needed to save an animal's life. Indeed anything is better than the "it has a limp lets euthanize it" mentality.



> Prisons that prevent the dog from being killed on a road, or taken from irrisponsible owners who refused their dog treatment, or an elderly person who passed away, sadly leaving their pet with nobody to care for it, and the list goes on.


Prisons that they have done nothing deserving of being put into. Honestly it's better for a pet to live free and eventually become roadkill then to be kept in a small cage in a room crowded with other animals in small cages until someone decides to stick a needle in them. Heck they might even find homes for themselves that's how my cat Timmy found me.



> How many vets suggest this then? What is the cost, how do they preform the procedure and what is the difference really?


The difference is like cutting off your penis and testicles vs cutting your Vas deferens which is the vessel that sends sperm to be ejaculated out in your semen.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2010)

wiiztec said:


> The difference is like cutting off your penis and testicles vs cutting your Vas deferens which is the vessel that sends sperm to be ejaculated out in your semen.


Could you give some links to this procedure and a few statistics?
It may be of interest to some people


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## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

wiiztec said:


> I was referring to people correlating unspayed/neutered pets with animals being killed in shelters, obviously there are exceptions when they are needed to save an animal's life. Indeed anything is better than the "it has a limp lets euthanize it" mentality.


But the truth of the matter is these rescue centres are FULL with dogs. Many are lucky and find foster homes. I nutered my boy due to the locals allowing their dogs to roam, and I was not going to be responsible if he managed to slip mate, and create another unhealth tested, unwanted littler of pups. I very much doubt ANY of the regular users of PF EVER have the mentality of "it limps, it goes". Infact anyone who comes on here with that sort of attitude gets told in no uncertain terms, what ETHICALLY and LEGALLY they should do. Not one of us condones that sort of attitude.



wiiztec said:


> Prisons that they have done nothing deserving of being put into. Honestly it's better for a pet to live free and eventually become roadkill then to be kept in a small cage in a room crowded with other animals in small cages until someone decides to stick a needle in them. Heck they might even find homes for themselves that's how my cat Timmy found me.


So my lad should have been left at 3 weeks old, on the road side, with his 4 littlermates, to die, or be killed should he? Even though they have all found loving homes???

What right does any human have to say they should be road kill???



wiiztec said:


> The difference is like cutting off your penis and testicles vs cutting your Vas deferens which is the vessel that sends sperm to be ejaculated out in your semen.


So you would happily put the dog through a GA, then let it freely enter a bitch, who would more than likely have a phantom. Sounds real responsible that


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

wiiztec said:


> Prisons that they have done nothing deserving of being put into. Honestly it's better for a pet to live free and eventually become roadkill then to be kept in a small cage in a room crowded with other animals in small cages until someone decides to stick a needle in them. Heck they might even find homes for themselves that's how my cat Timmy found me


I assume you are not in the UK? if you are, then I can safely guess you've never visited any rescue centres - a bit like the fact you've never attended any matings - it's so easy to have such strong views on these things when what you say makes it quite clear that you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

And as for 'roadkill' - that is sick beyond belief



wiiztec said:


> The difference is like cutting off your penis and testicles vs cutting your Vas deferens which is the vessel that sends sperm to be ejaculated out in your semen.


I think you need a bit of a biology lesson in terms of what is actually done when neutering.

Let's just cut the tubes, placing the dog under the same level of risk, and let him have the increased risk of developing testicular cancer when he is older.

FYI -neutered dogs are still capable of mating and tying with a bitch - however, most do lose the urge to do the canine equivalent of chasing everything in a skirt.

====================

You really do have a very strange view on this with clearly no experience of matings - or whelping litters, or seeing what happens in rescues etc

My dogs are not neutered - and thats my choice but I would NEVER chastise someone for neutering - my only exception to this being, I do believe there are few good reasons for neutering a bitch before her first season.

Dogs are a different matter, you can have a boy like mine, only interested in girls when they are ready for mating, or one who has a sex drive that makes it think dogs and humans alike are fair game - and should I imagine makes a very miserable existence for dog and owners alike 

Cutting the tubes will have absolutely NO effect on that sex drive - and far from being done for the benefits of the owner, is done for the dog's benefit so he can enjoy a nornal doggie existence without the pressure to want to s**g everything in sight.

These type of dogs seldom know when a bitch is ready for mating, their radar doesn't work that way - they just think everyone is up for it - and a receptive bitch when she is due for mating is a far cry from the response a bitch can give when she isn't, which will no doubt end up with the dog coming off worse.

You can put in season bitches in front of many established stud dogs, and if she isn't ready for mating, in a lot of instances, they wouldn't even worry about her being there, no less try to mate her.


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## wiiztec (Jul 22, 2010)

sue&harvey said:


> So my lad should have been left at 3 weeks old, on the road side, with his 4 littlermates, to die, or be killed should he? Even though they have all found loving homes???
> 
> What right does any human have to say they should be road kill???


 I did not say that they SHOULD be roadkill! I made a comparision between a miserable life in an animal shelter being ended by euthanasia & a considerably better life of FREEDOM being ended by an automobile accident. Killing a large part of the population to give the remaining individuals each a higher quality of life is immoral. Imagine if we took poor and homeless people and sterilized them and put them in "shelters" with small rooms where they sit and wait to be adopted by wealthy people and be killed when the shelters began to overcrowd. That's exactly what were doing with animals in shelters.



swarthy said:


> Cutting the tubes will have absolutely NO effect on that sex drive


That's the whole point, what makes you think you have the right to kill a dog's sex drive?



> I assume you are not in the UK? if you are, then I can safely guess you've never visited any rescue centres - a bit like the fact you've never attended any matings - it's so easy to have such strong views on these things when what you say makes it quite clear that you don't have a clue what you are talking about.


You're right I'm not from the UK I'm from the US, are you trying to tell me that animal shelter's in the UK don't kill any animals at all and have wide open spaces for them to frolic about?


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

wiiztec said:


> You're right I'm not from the UK I'm from the US, are you trying to tell me that animal shelter's in the UK don't kill any animals at all and have wide open spaces for them to frolic about?


They have kennels and runs, just like quite a lot of dogs do in working and show homes where there are multiple dogs.

They get regular visitors in terms of the public, dog walkers etc and the majority do not PTS unless there is a very good reason for doing so. Our local RSPCA policy is new homes are sought once they have been in for 10 days, assuming they are not claimed during that time.

While I don't condone the putting to sleep of any animal without good reason - if it's alternative to the dog quietly going to sleep, or being hit by a car and living a prolonged agonising death where while it is dying, it could bite humans trying to help it - if there MUST be a preference, while neither are particularly palatable, I know where mine lies.

I see you've gone very quiet on the mating front


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

wiiztec said:


> That's the whole point, what makes you think you have the right to kill a dog's sex drive?


are you serious? You think it's socially acceptable for a dog to go around humping everything and anything, putting him at risk - allowing him to go wandering the street - because believe me, a determined dog will get out of almost anything - I've heard of dogs scaling 10 feet kennels and fences to get in with bitches in season.

The drive puts the dogs at a higher risk of being stolen through his wandering - and all in all ends up making the dog miserable - and personally, I don't like having miserable dogs.

So that life you talk about for those rescue dogs wouldn't be dissimilar to the pet dog with the high sex drive - because you simply wouldn't be able to live a normal life with him.

You forget - NONE of my animals are neutered - but I, helped by nature decide when my dogs will be bred from (or in some instances, make a conscious decision not to breed from them for whatever reason).

I've got two older bitches here, one has finished her breeding, and will be neutered, the other has not been bred from, and will also be neutered - why? to stop them developing Pyo when they are older.

In addition, one had a neck injury which required massive surgical intervention, the other doesn't have the best hips and also hurt her leg.

Why should I or any other dog owner be unable to let them run free for fear of all these un-neutered rampant dogs wanting to get at them even when they are not in season, when unwanted attention to either of those girls could seriously damage them, irrespective of whether a mating actually took place.

My girls are never out of my sight when in season - but that's the point, many of these dogs have NO CLUE and will continue to try and mate - the consequences to be quite honest don't even bear thinking about.

You think it's OK for dogs to be escaping and roaming the streets in search of bitches risking life and limb, while also putting other peoples' lives at risk through accidents etc rather than have them neutered  : 

In your world, unwanted litters would increase, as would dog on dog aggression, and quite likely dog on human aggression, not to mention lining the pockets of the vets to the tune far higher than a simple neutering ever could while causing mass heartache to many owners and great suffering to the animals 

If that's caring - thanks but no thanks.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

wiiztec said:


> There are better ways if you're really dead set on denying your dogs their right to posterity, with vasectomys and tubal ligations they can have all the sex they want and no puppies will result from it.


herrrmmm, wizzer - 
as a past-presenter for Peer-To-Peer sex-education at my university, i have often addressed these issues with 20-something humans, and found that many times, the *mis*information they had already imbibed along the way, greatly exceeded the *accurate-info* - often by a 10 to 1 ratio.

vasectomy: 
a much-more invasive surgery, requiring considerable finesse + longer anaesthetic periods vs simple orchidectomy; 
not for the casual vet, and not suited to mass-surgeries as in S/N clinics. 
*more expensive than desex; takes just as long to clear leftover sperm post-surgery; has zero health or behavioral advantages.*

vasectomy [henceforth *VSC*] does not prevent testicular-cancer + other androgen-fueled neoplasms, 
VSC Does Not prevent *perianal fistulas* - chronic, recurrent and incredibly-painful; 
VSC does not lessen problematic M-behaviors: 
* *fighting* 
* *biting* 
* *marking* 
* *M:M posturing, threats, barking, bullying, et al* - which intimidate pups, intensify arousal in nearby dogs, and can trigger fights in group settings among UNinvolved dogs who simply see or hear the challenges - 
think *dog park, beach, dog-show, Bark-In-The-Park, agility, other dog-sports, ad infinitum, as well as private affairs: family picnics with multiple dogs, reunions, relatives visit, etc.*

tubal ligatures in Fs - 
similarly, *No Protection* from mammary tumors, pyometra, ovarian cysts, cervical cancers and other estrogen-fueled neoplasms, UTIs are more frequent, and *ESTRUS* occurs - 
just as it would in an intact-F, leading to precisely the same complications: 
* *dog fights among Ms who gather* 
* *leg-lifting to redecorate the owners yard - * 
the shrubs, car, doorway, mailbox, banisters,... 
* *aggressive pursuits of un-willing Fs* 
* *re-directed aggro toward handlers who attempt to discourage a suitor* - I-E, bites 
* *bloody discharge - * panties for approx 3-weeks to 4-weeks, twice yearly? 
* *temperamental upheaval - * hormone storms 
* *F:F aggro, which is USUALLY more-intense, bloody + dangerous than M:M fights - * 
younger-Fs are often miserably bullied or attacked, leading to dog-aggro as a defensive response

*just in case - * 
along with the physical consequences of being intact, the behavioral fallout, the virtually impossibility of dog-sports like flyball, and so on, there are also Sexually-Transmitted Diseases among dogs - among them, a *zoonosis* communicable to humans, called *Brucellosis.* 
for a description of its charming symptoms, see Herriot, DVM in his popular memoirs of his vet-work in the 1930s + 40s.

*Brucellosis can cause miscarriage, stillbirth, defects, sterility, etc - 
it can also be a CHRONIC - meaning lifelong - CONDITION with periodic crises that include high-fever, possible meningitis, delusions, hallucinations, violence, erratic behavior, bedridden for weeks, inappetant, wt-loss, muscle atrophy, and possible seizures with or without brain-damage.*

would U volunteer to be infected? then we'll talk about it.  
of course, nowadays we have antibiotics - *which are not always effective, and Brucella can be resistant - like any other microbe.* 
cheers, 
--- terry

BTW- vasectomIES


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

This thread is now bordering on the bizarre.

Time to let it die.


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