# English Bull Terrier first mating



## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

:001_unsure:

I have a male and female bull terrier both aged two. The female is in heat on her 17th day and the male has been showing interest in her ie mounting her since the 13th day, however he keeps missing the target and has not penetrated her resulting in no tie.

The breeder has advised me that mating can be very difficult and i may have to assist them both with the help of somebody else. I have tried this and when i am near them both dogs walk away from one another. 

Both dogs are in experienced, any advise on this anyone?

KR Miss'j


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## sullivan (Aug 29, 2008)

i have heard that some bull breeds dont tie whilst mating but need to be held there for 10 mins to help. But i cant help sorry . Im sure someone else can give advice.


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

sullivan said:


> i have heard that some bull breeds dont tie whilst mating but need to be held there for 10 mins to help. But i cant help sorry . Im sure someone else can give advice.


I have been told that they are a difficult breed to mate, they are very stubborn i know that much :lol:

KR Miss'j


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## sullivan (Aug 29, 2008)

my brother owns a american bullly not a english, but hes never breed from him as not suitable due to faults. But he was brought for the family knowing he wouldnt breed from him . He is on here under the name of Morris theres pics in his profile if you fancy a peek. Im not sure if there will be any other bully owners listed in his friends list you could send a message to .


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2010)

could the breeder of the dogs not help? i just wondered have your dogs been health tested before you breed? because BT's can suffer from serious genetic health conditions.


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## leoti (Dec 9, 2007)

I hope both dogs have been health tested for 

KIDNEY DISEASE 
HEART DISEASE
DEAFNESS
LETHAL ACRODERMATITIS
PATELLA LUXATION


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

To be honest, unless you know what you're doing, or can get an experienced stud dog handler to help you, I wouldn't bother trying at all. Having a stud dog is more of a responsibility than breeding from a bitch. You need to be able to make an internal examination of the bitch to see if there are any possible problems that might be preventing them mating and tieing, and not all bitches are appreciative of being mated, even to a dog they are familiar with. You can imagine the damage if she turns aggressive, and even the most placid bitch can become aggressive at mating. 

I've copied and pasted this from another forum (with the permission of the op), altered it slightly so hopefully it's not advertising the other forum, but this is the perspective from a very experienced stud dog owner/handler. Not all of it applies to you, as you're not advertising a stud service, but gives you an idea of what can go wrong......

'At sometime in nearly every male, decently bred, dogs' life, the owner thinks... "Do you know, we should breed from this dog".

I handle outside dogs at stud and also my own stud dogs. Whilst the impression is that one throws two dogs into a garden and nature takes over sadly nothing could be further from the truth. There are legal and ethical responsibilities these days to handling a stud dog. I would add the fact that you do not 'have a stud dog' you 'offer a stud SERVICE'. That service is not just putting dog A with bitch B and leaving them to mate. 90% of dogs won't. They are domesticated and do not have the natural instincts of days gone by.

Your stud service is that you know lots about bitch reproduction and so can tell THEM when to bring her to your dog. You will need to know what to look for and feel for (including sometimes internals on the bitches which come to you) to know she is ready for mating before allowing your dog to mate her. Most dogs cannot penetrate without hand manipulation into the right place. Bitches do not stand rock steady and infact some are VERY aggressive about being mated.
Would you know if that aggression was because she wasn't ready for mating or if she was just being a difficult old bag?
Holding down a bitch, not ready for mating, can result in injury to her, and certainly to your stud dog.

Do you know what a slip mating is? Its when the dog mates the bitch, and ejaculates into her but hasn't 'tied' her and therefore, ejaculates and steps off, with his bits extended and post seminal fluid raining down on everyone that should have been going into the bitch during the tie. Are you aware how to handle this? How long to wait before trying again to make the mating worth while as he has 'come' once? How dissappointed most bitch owners are with a slip mating? Do you know how to explian the facts of bitches concieving from slip matings (they can but bitch owners don't believe you most of the time and can give you a hard time about it...)

What if those people had driven 100 miles to your dog and you stand there with him jumping on and off, on and off and nothing happening? Do you understand the mechanics of the way dogs mate and tie. How to turn your dog so they are back to back with a bitch thrashing, snarling and yelling as it is uncomfortable? Do you know about advising about care of the inseason bitch, about what to recommend they do after the mating with her? About feeding and care of the inwhelp bitch? They often won't - YOU provide the service for a fee, or a puppy back, so YOU need to know for their sake. Do you know how to break a tie between two dogs in an emergency? (and it doesn't involve throwing a bucket of water over them....)

What if you dog cannot put his penis back in its sheath? Do you know your legal position if the bitch develops or picks up and infection shortly after mating? What the Kennel Club expect of you as regards paperwork? The inland revenues standpoint on taking money on a regular basis and putting it in your bank account?

What if there are problems with the puppies? Cleft palletes, disabilities? Swimmers (do you know what a swimmer is?) etc etc etc...

I know I sound a HORRIBLE person, but its not a friendly arrangement. People pay to use your dog and want pups. Healthy pups. A no nonsense servcing from your dog, two ties 48 hours apart, and a litter of 10 pups all who are better than their parents. An easy pregnancy, advice all the way down the line, the paperwork all present and correct and perfection in the offspring for the rest of their days. Bitch owners are and SHOULD BE demanding. They are paying money for something and should get what they pay for to the very bestof your ability. Even if money doesn't change hands no bitch wants a botched inexperienced dog leaping on and off her every day for 10 days whilst you chaps learn by hit and miss how to mate dogs. It will turn any bitch into a snapping snarling wreak.

A bitch needs to come bang on when she is ready, be mated swiftly with as little fuss as possible, with the dog manipulated into her FAST, she needs supporting, and the turn when they tie to be clean, no fuss and as painless as possible for her. Its not easy....

Sadly nature doesn't kick in often these days. Mismatings between Jack Russells and Great Danes which people cite when saying 'it must be easy mating dogs if THAT can happen' are fairy tales. Almost certainly mismatings are distressing, painful, long winded and hellish for the bitch, and with his bits locked into a fighting snarling bitch, pretty damn awful for the dog. hence the stud SERVICE needing to be offered and carried out.'

Apologies for the graphic language, the post tells it how it is though, and is hopefully no worse than what kids learn at schools these days. It gives you a good idea though of what you need to know before you go about using your dog, let alone your bitch, and that's even before you answer the questions about health testing. Lots to think about


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## kaisa624 (Mar 5, 2010)

You said yourself that both of your dogs are inexperienced, so I'm guessing maiden... I was always told to get a well proven stud for a maiden bitch, and vice versa for a maiden stud.


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

sullivan said:


> my brother owns a american bullly not a english, but hes never breed from him as not suitable due to faults. But he was brought for the family knowing he wouldnt breed from him . He is on here under the name of Morris theres pics in his profile if you fancy a peek. Im not sure if there will be any other bully owners listed in his friends list you could send a message to .




Hi...i will have a read on his thread, thank you. :thumbup:

KR Miss'j

Il tip your scales


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## Cay (Jun 22, 2009)

It is very unlikely that the most suitable dog for your girl is owned by you.


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

Shamen said:


> could the breeder of the dogs not help? i just wondered have your dogs been health tested before you breed? because BT's can suffer from serious genetic health conditions.




The breeder is willing to help but lives 176 miles away from me. He has been giving me advise by telephone and i am welcome to visit.

Of course my dogs have been health tested, i am a new breeder but a responcible one and take this very seriously, my animals welfare is my priority.

KR Miss'j


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> To be honest, unless you know what you're doing, or can get an experienced stud dog handler to help you, I wouldn't bother trying at all. Having a stud dog is more of a responsibility than breeding from a bitch. You need to be able to make an internal examination of the bitch to see if there are any possible problems that might be preventing them mating and tieing, and not all bitches are appreciative of being mated, even to a dog they are familiar with. You can imagine the damage if she turns aggressive, and even the most placid bitch can become aggressive at mating.
> 
> I've copied and pasted this from another forum (with the permission of the op), altered it slightly so hopefully it's not advertising the other forum, but this is the perspective from a very experienced stud dog owner/handler. Not all of it applies to you, as you're not advertising a stud service, but gives you an idea of what can go wrong......
> 
> ...




All advise welcome. I have educational books, read the internet, recieved advise from the breeder, the vet, and now i have become a member of this forum. I am very willing to learn and gain experience in breeding and enjoy and love my animals very much. Im also considering studing a short course on behaviour.

I have a very long way to go but im ejoying every moment of it and hope to breed a lovely litter in the future, i am not doing this for the money, it is a hobby and the love of animals, and to improve the breed. I am a member of a couple of clubs and will be showing my dogs this year.

KR Miss'j


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

kaisa624 said:


> You said yourself that both of your dogs are inexperienced, so I'm guessing maiden... I was always told to get a well proven stud for a maiden bitch, and vice versa for a maiden stud.


Advise taken...im going to be visiting the breeder and doing just that, hopfully i will learn alot.

KR Miss'j


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

Cay said:


> It is very unlikely that the most suitable dog for your girl is owned by you.


You may be correct. The male dog was recommended to me by the breeder as being suitable for my bitch, as he knows the dogs.

All advise welcome.

KR Miss'j


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Everybody has to start somewhere when it comes to breeding, it's good to see you're taking all advice on board. If you're not sure this time round, I'd leave it until next season. I've disappointed waiting lists several times now before I take my first ever (possibly only) litter from my Labrador bitch, because I'd rather have everything in place, and make sure all is in order before I go ahead. There are lots of threads on here about breeding, including the health tests, and also KC registration, contracts, puppy packs etc, etc, they should keep you busy for a while if you haven't already read up on these things. Good luck, and nice to see you're sticking around to keep us up to date


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2010)

Miss'j said:


> The breeder is willing to help but lives 176 miles away from me. He has been giving me advise by telephone and i am welcome to visit.
> 
> Of course my dogs have been health tested, i am a new breeder but a responcible one and take this very seriously, my animals welfare is my priority.
> 
> KR Miss'j


my neighbours BT was pts at 3yrs old due to inherited kidney disease she'd been fine up to this point, so i would have thought it better to breed when bitches were around 3 and dogs even older just to see if the condition arises, im not sure about this but dont they recommend testing every 6 months on breeding stock for the kidney condition as it can develop at any time?


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Everybody has to start somewhere when it comes to breeding, it's good to see you're taking all advice on board. If you're not sure this time round, I'd leave it until next season. I've disappointed waiting lists several times now before I take my first ever (possibly only) litter from my Labrador bitch, because I'd rather have everything in place, and make sure all is in order before I go ahead. There are lots of threads on here about breeding, including the health tests, and also KC registration, contracts, puppy packs etc, etc, they should keep you busy for a while if you haven't already read up on these things. Good luck, and nice to see you're sticking around to keep us up to date




New breeders have to start somewhere your right and if you genuinely care for animals and have an interest in a breed, with the space that alone is good grounds to start.

I have grown up with dogs and have been interested in this breed for years, i enjoy animals more than people, they are loyal and good company. I have met some wonderfull people at shows and find bull terriers fasinating, they have the potential to be vicious animals in the wrong hands but i know them to be fun loving, stubborn, courageous, fearless and affectionate dogs who make very good family pets.

It annoys me when i read bad articles about them, tirin them all with the same brush. In my opinion it is the owners fault with regards to the way in which the handle and bring them up. Anyway thats another subject.

KR Miss'j


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Shamen said:


> my neighbours BT was pts at 3yrs old due to inherited kidney disease she'd been fine up to this point, so i would have thought it better to breed when bitches were around 3 and dogs even older just to see if the condition arises, im not sure about this but dont they recommend testing every 6 months on breeding stock for the kidney condition as it can develop at any time?


they recommend a upc test for bullies anything under .3 the presume as clear from the disease...not sure about the 6 month ...to be honest all bullies should be tested as it is a very early indication that there is something going wrong with the kidneys...
I now will get Mavis done every year..

We lost Ozzy late last year to kidney failure at 2 years old...

Miss J i would love to see some pictures of your bullies if you have time...and good luck

juliex


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2010)

paddyjulie said:


> they recommend a upc test for bullies anything under .3 the presume as clear from the disease...not sure about the 6 month ...to be honest all bullies should be tested as it is a very early indication that there is something going wrong with the kidneys...
> I now will get Mavis done every year..
> 
> We lost Ozzy late last year to kidney failure at 2 years old...
> ...


so sorry you lost your dog to this awful condition and he was so young aswell:frown: just shows how irresponsible it is not to test before breeding, do you think breeding is best left as late as possible to see if the disease develops Julie?


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Shamen said:


> so sorry you lost your dog to this awful condition and he was so young aswell:frown: just shows how irresponsible it is not to test before breeding, do you think breeding is best left as late as possible to see if the disease develops Julie?


I would think it probably is ... So many bullterriers are dying young now with this horrible disease... Within four month of us noticing something was just not right with ozzy he was gone...I personally now will never get a bullterrier puppy who parents have not been tested... The UPC check is brilliant ... As blood test only show something is wrong when the disease is advanced ..

Juliex


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Are they working on a genetic test for this do you know? Would seem like a top priority for the breed to me.


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

I would be devastated if i sold a puppy with genetic problems due to my own ignornace and neglect, therfore i would do my upmost to ensure that this would not happen.

My exotic persian male cat died in May of last year, he had just reached his third birthday (Rufus). He had an unknown heart condition (aortic thromboembolism) we were devastated as it was sudden and such a shock. He was fine one minute and dead the next.

Being a responcible breeder you must be 100% committed and i felt angry towards the breeder who i purchased my cat from.

KR Miss'j


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2010)

paddyjulie said:


> I would think it probably is ... So many bullterriers are dying young now with this horrible disease... Within four month of us noticing something was just not right with ozzy he was gone...I personally now will never get a bullterrier puppy who parents have not been tested... The UPC check is brilliant ... As blood test only show something is wrong when the disease is advanced ..
> 
> Juliex


aw how awful poor Ozzy i know the couple who lost their BT were devestated and also angry when they found out that a simple test on the sire and dam could have determined that their dog should never have been born.


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2010)

Miss'j said:


> I would be devastated if i sold a puppy with genetic problems due to my own ignornace and neglect, therfore i would do my upmost to ensure that this would not happen.
> 
> My exotic persian male cat died in May of last year, he had just reached his third birthday. He had an unknown heart condition (aortic thromboembolism) we were devastated as it was sudden and such a shock. He was fine one minute and dead the next.
> 
> ...


so do you also think its better to wait until they're older to breed and see if the disease develops?

sorry about your cat thats terrible:frown:


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Shamen said:


> aw how awful poor Ozzy i know the couple who lost their BT were devestated and also angry when they found out that a simple test on the sire and dam could have determined that their dog should never have been born.


About £15 that's all it cost ... Most vets can do it in house ... But ...it is possible to mask the results by doing certain things .. If a breeder wished to do so.. Not that I am saying many do but it can be done ..
Mavis last check was 0.1. Which is good

juliex


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

Shamen said:


> so do you also think its better to wait until they're older to breed and see if the disease develops?
> 
> sorry about your cat thats terrible:frown:


It was awful he was very beautiful and a people person...Yes i think it is best to mate them when they are 3 onwards. I have been reading this forum and will discuss with my vet the UPC check that is available.

KR Miss'j

p.s why can i not add a photo of him on here? I just tried to.


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2010)

paddyjulie said:


> About £15 that's all it cost ... Most vets can do it in house ... But ...it is possible to mask the results by doing certain things .. If a breeder wished to do so.. Not that I am saying many do but it can be done ..
> Mavis last check was 0.1. Which is good
> 
> juliex


so pleased Mavis's results are good, and thanks for answering my posts Julie



Miss'j said:


> It was awful he was very beautiful and a people person...Yes i think it is best to mate them when they are 3 onwards. I have been reading this forum and will discuss with my vet the UPC check that is available.
> 
> KR Miss'j
> 
> p.s why can i not add a photo of him on here? I just tried to.


im so pleased you're going to discuss it with your vet

im not sure.... do you have 'photobucket'? thats what i use to download photo' from.


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

paddyjulie said:


> About £15 that's all it cost ... Most vets can do it in house ... But ...it is possible to mask the results by doing certain things .. If a breeder wished to do so.. Not that I am saying many do but it can be done ..
> Mavis last check was 0.1. Which is good
> 
> juliex


Can you give me more information on this please? :thumbup:


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2010)

Miss'j said:


> Can you give me more information on this please? :thumbup:


i found this info Miss J....Familial nephropathy (kidney disease )


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Miss'j said:


> It was awful he was very beautiful and a people person...Yes i think it is best to mate them when they are 3 onwards. I have been reading this forum and will discuss with my vet the UPC check that is available.
> 
> KR Miss'j
> 
> p.s why can i not add a photo of him on here? I just tried to.


you need to upload to photobucket or something like...and then put in the image code....as for the upc check it is best to collect the urine first wee in the morning..mid flow...its a protein/ creatinine ratio check...

here is a link to a really good site

http://bullterriershealthuk.homestead.com/healthproblems.html


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Miss J
Here is a thread on posting pictures:

http://www.petforums.co.uk/forum-help-suggestions/9370-attaching-photos-posts.html

Ozzy who died is the tri..in my signature he was a lovely lad..


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

paddyjulie said:


> Miss J
> Here is a thread on posting pictures:
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/forum-help-suggestions/9370-attaching-photos-posts.html
> ...


Very nice photos. R.I.P bless


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Miss'j said:


> Very nice photos. R.I.P bless


thanks x

i just love bullies. we have had them for the last 15 years...Mavis is my little love...such a good girl..

juliex


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

paddyjulie said:


> thanks x
> 
> i just love bullies. we have had them for the last 15 years...Mavis is my little love...such a good girl..
> 
> juliex


Posted photo of Rufus (page 3, post 22)...i adore my bullies, well all my five animals, three dogs and two cats...


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

Question;- I want to recieve email updates when someone posts to my thread, i have looked in the options but still cant get it right?


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Miss'j said:


> Posted photo of Rufus (post 22)...i adore my bullies, well all my five animals, three dogs and two cats...


Can't find it...arghhhhhhhhh

how do they get on..the cats and the dogs??


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Miss'j said:


> Question;- I want to recieve email updates when someone posts to my thread, i have looked in the options but still cant get it right?


i think you go in the thread tools at the top of this thread and do it from there

juliex


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

paddyjulie said:


> Can't find it...arghhhhhhhhh
> 
> how do they get on..the cats and the dogs??


Hi.... go to page 3, post 22 for the photo, its thumbnail size to the left handside.

They get on fine now, it takes a little time, my dogs are now two so they have got used to having the cats around now. I never leave the dogs with the cats unattended, although I trust my female bully and french bulldog, but not 100% on my male bully.

My cats are fond of my dogs its lovely to watch them all together.


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

paddyjulie said:


> i think you go in the thread tools at the top of this thread and do it from there
> 
> juliex


Much appreciated thanks. :thumbup:


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Miss'j said:


> Hi.... go to page 3, post 22 for the photo, its thumbnail size to the left handside.
> 
> They get on fine now, it takes a little time, my dogs are now two so they have got used to having the cats around now. I never leave the dogs with the cats unattended, although I trust my female bully and french bulldog, but not 100% on my male bully.
> 
> My cats are fond of my dogs its lovely to watch them all together.


:thumbup: :thumbup:

beautiful...what big paws....xx


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

paddyjulie said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup:
> 
> beautiful...what big paws....xx


Rufus wasnt even one then either, he had huge orange eyes and a fasination for water. R.I.P Rufus


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## bully lover (Jan 27, 2011)

hi i have english bullterriers aswell and im trying to breed mine at the moment.u tend to find that the female may stand for him but she may not let him penetrate til shes truly ready.im having same problem my male is aiming too high but when shes truly ready she will lift her vulva to allow him in.im on the 12th day with my bitch and im trying again tomorow then leave it a day and try again on the 15th.its very much trial and error because each bitch can ovulate so differently.she can as early as 5 days into her season right through to the 23rd day so patience is needed.normal is between 9 and 15 days in..if she stops letting him mount thats usualy a sign that its ended.i had 1 bitch caught on the 15th day my male tryed on the 4 occasions i put them together but on the 15th day it was over in 20 mins ,when i introduced them he mounted within 1 min it went straight in and they stuck for around 20 mins and she caught and had 6 lovely pups unfortunatly she didnt want them so we had to hand rear them we lost 1 but managed to rear 5 lovely healthy pups..be aware 2 hourly feeds isnt fun if she doesnt want them but its highly rewarding for sure.also be carefull when mating because ive found some bitches can get quite agressive.hope this helps and good luk.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Regarding photo's - I upload mine to photobucket, resize them to about 400 - click the direct link that then says "copied" come back to here and click on the yellow photo square, delete http// in the box and paste the copied link from photobucket, then press okay - presto, you should have it!


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