# Training an awesome send away?



## scarter (Apr 26, 2009)

Won't bore you with the details as to why, but I have reason to want a very powerful send away.

I want my dog to be stood in front of me and when I say 'go' (or whatever) I want them to single mindedly run forward as fast as they can without any thought of looking back, slowing down....until I say stop. Same with left and right.

So, we've got the basic behaviours. I used targeting and clicker training. Started out having them touch the target and clicking when they touched. Gradually moved target further away. Then started clicking before they reached the target sometimes. Finally moved the target out of sight over a hill. Then took the target away all together. So, they both do it, but I'm not getting the enthusiasm I want. Maybe I moved to quickly and need to go back a bit? Or any ideas for how to get some more speed and oomph into it without making them too dependent upon a target?

Or maybe you've used an entirely different approach to a send away? The key thing for me is I really do want 'keep running until I stay stop' - not just the ability to work ahead of me - for example in agility.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

I've never liked that method of teaching sendaway and I know it very well.

As you have discovered there simply isn't enough motivation and generally the dogs will run back to the handler much quicker than going to the target.

To my mind the incentive must be at the target, whether it be a favourite toy or food.

I've always had fast and enthusiastic sendaway dogs and use whatever turns them on which, in recent years, has been a squeaky tennis ball.


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

Agree with Twiggy and using a heck of a lot of enthusiasm, yourself. Throw yourself into whatever hand signal you use, use your whole body. Look and sound as excited as possible and shorten the distance until you get speed and drive.


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## scarter (Apr 26, 2009)

We don't have a problem with them turning back to us. They always go to the target very enthusiastically. It's just that once the target is taken out of the equation (which has to happen at some point) there's a bit less motivation. They still don't turn back to us, but don't run quite so fast when there's nothing to run to. 

So I guess it's a question more of how best to wean them off the target. 

With the target they'll go at break neck speed.

Without the target they'll do it until we say stop, but it's less enthusiastic. 

So ideas for bridging the two?


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## scarter (Apr 26, 2009)

This is the type of thing we need:

Vorous - Slam dunk send out - Schutzhund Obedience - YouTube


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

It's a very common problem...LOL

I see hundreds on dogs who are enthusiastic in training but get them in the obedience ring and it's a different story.

Its all about keeping the motivation.

What is your response when your dogs run out with less enthusiam when the target has been removed?


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

scarter said:


> This is the type of thing we need:
> 
> Vorous - Slam dunk send out - Schutzhund Obedience - YouTube


I've just watched it and personally I wouldn't call that a fast sendaway.

I've got a Schutzhund GSD coming this afternoon to see if I can help with the obedience aspect of his training.


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## scarter (Apr 26, 2009)

We don't (and won't) do it in an obedience ring. I'm really just talking about a practice situation at this stage. Specifically - weaning a dog off a target. 

The dog gets rewarded for doing the right thing. If he does something more difficult, or does something better the reward is greater. 

What I'm interested to hear is what steps you personally take when weaning the dog off the target? I mean, it seems to me quite obvious that if you've made running to a target rewarding for a dog then he will be less enthusiastic when that target is no longer there. Just looking for lots of different ideas.


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## spaniel04 (Nov 27, 2011)

Could you not train this like a blind retrieve in gundog training? I teach my dogs to go out full pelt on a blind and if it is trained properly they will run as fast and in as straight a line as they would do on a seen retrieve. But the dog has to believe in me when I send it out that there is something out there to find otherwise I can't see what could motivate a dog enough to run fast into the blue yonder.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

scarter said:


> We don't (and won't) do it in an obedience ring. I'm really just talking about a practice situation at this stage. Specifically - weaning a dog off a target.
> 
> The dog gets rewarded for doing the right thing. If he does something more difficult, or does something better the reward is greater.
> 
> What I'm interested to hear is what steps you personally take when weaning the dog off the target? I mean, it seems to me quite obvious that if you've made running to a target rewarding for a dog then he will be less enthusiastic when that target is no longer there. Just looking for lots of different ideas.


Not if the training is done correctly which is why I asked what your response is when your dog runs out with less enthusiasm.


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2012)

Generally Id say if youre losing enthusiasm, you either havent made the criteria clear enough to the dog or you have upped the criteria too quickly. If you have made the criteria reaching the target without also clarifying to the dog that speed is also a criteria, then you will loose the speed aspect. 

Im going to have to plug crate games again for this one LOL. I think youre just going to have to break down and get that DVD


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## scarter (Apr 26, 2009)

spaniel04 said:


> Could you not train this like a blind retrieve in gundog training? I teach my dogs to go out full pelt on a blind and if it is trained properly they will run as fast and in as straight a line as they would do on a seen retrieve. But the dog has to believe in me when I send it out that there is something out there to find otherwise I can't see what could motivate a dog enough to run fast into the blue yonder.


Yes, sounds good. That's exactly what we're trying to achieve.

So how did you train it. And, if you initially used a target I'm most interested to know how you weaned them off the target.

Same to everyone - how did YOU wean your dog off the target? What I'm interested in is different approaches that people have tried.


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## scarter (Apr 26, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Im going to have to plug crate games again for this one LOL. I think youre just going to have to break down and get that DVD


I mailed around my friends to see if anyone had a copy I could borrow. Don't mind paying the £30 for it if it's going to be useful to me but I'm fed up of buying things that don't help. I'm reliably informed that there are plenty of vids on youtube that are every bit as good as the DVD so I'm just waiting for one of them to send me said links. Should have them later today.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

We taught send aways by putting a cone out and hiding a treat, at first on the bottom lip and as it is obedience class, they had to lie down at the cone. Then we put the treat under the cone and asked the dog to lie down and we went over and lifted the cone up for them to get the treat.. then we progressed to no treat. 

Of course like Spaniel04 - I do blind retrieves.


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## scarter (Apr 26, 2009)

SLB - how did you progress to no cone?


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

scarter said:


> SLB - how did you progress to no cone?


Ahh haven't got there. But I suppose just taking the cone and doing it with just treats then no treats, but there has to be somewhere for the dog to go. But first - make it spot on with the cones


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

I train sendaways and redirects and I never wean the dog off a target. 

I fade it, but the only time there is NOTHING out there, is at a trial.

I normally train to around 500m outrun and up to 300m left or right so that might be a total of 600m on one redirect (if I redirect the dog from the right hand target to the left hand one for example)


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

scarter said:


> Yes, sounds good. That's exactly what we're trying to achieve.
> 
> So how did you train it. And, if you initially used a target I'm most interested to know how you weaned them off the target.
> 
> Same to everyone - how did YOU wean your dog off the target? What I'm interested in is different approaches that people have tried.


I asked the chap with his Shutzhund dog this afternoon how he initially starts a young dog off on sendaway and it was exactly the same as I do it ie throwing a tennis ball.

We don't have to send the dog to nothing in obedience competitions (although it can be a triangle of markers, a box of four markers, two front markers and no back marker etc.) but the Shutzhund dogs have to run to nothing, so one assumes they would never use a target.

Either or but it still comes down to training with a high level of motivation to get the dog to run straight and fast.

It's just the same on any exercise, which is why I said it's a common problem in an earlier reply. For instance if a handler uses a toy or tit-bit in their left hand for heelwork all the time in training, its little wonder that the dog stops performing under test when you are not allowed to use either.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Twiggy said:


> but the Shutzhund dogs have to run to nothing, so one assumes they would never use a target.
> 
> *No, we do use targets. *
> 
> ...


Hmmmm I am not totally sure that the two are comparable, as that is luring, and I agree many people never move on from luring to the behaviour is contingent on the presence of the reinforcer, instead of the reverse.


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

A very potted version of what we do, haven't touched on redirections as although we start them very early in the training, it is too complex to explain our method here

I would look firstly at your stop at the end, is it smooth, done without any compulsion, I have seen many good outruns ruined by the conflict at the end, our chosen stop is the down.

when we start to train sendaways we go for just keep running, would start with a young pup or older dog, someone out at cone with food bowl with food in, tapping and calling, dog taken out shown the marker, food in bowl, taste it taken back a good distance, turning the dog round to focus numerous times on the way, if its a young pup it would be carried back.

when we release the dog the person must stop tapping but may help the dog into the desired position when they have finished eating. Handler following up to feed. 

After a couple of sessions just use the marker and bowl of food no person out there. Before you can do this you need to have perfected your stop so the dog stays at the marker while you go and reward them in the bowl. 

Get distance 200yds or more taking the dog up to marker leaving food in bowl, walking the dog back again turning and showing regularly, you are looking for the dog to fix its eyes on the marker.

Once the dog is free running, do shorter ones just to the marker, bowl removed, but walking up to reward the dog at the marker each time.

extend until you can get 200yds or more to a marker, no food out there, but you walking up to reward.

Moving on to no marker, walk your dog out a good distance assume the position you require as a stop (so for me a down), leave it there walk back, stop, face the dog, call it back, heel it round, focus it back to the point, send it, follow the dog up just walking, your presence will help the dog to keep moving, get your stop, walk up and reward the dog.

Repeat, if the dog doesn't go walk it out again and repeat.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Michael Ellis has a good sendaway DVD


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2012)

scarter said:


> I mailed around my friends to see if anyone had a copy I could borrow. Don't mind paying the £30 for it if it's going to be useful to me but I'm fed up of buying things that don't help. I'm reliably informed that there are plenty of vids on youtube that are every bit as good as the DVD so I'm just waiting for one of them to send me said links. Should have them later today.


The key to crate games is getting them to enjoy the act of running away from you TO the crate. Theres oppositional reflex involved, and other neat tricks to build that behavior up really strongly. 
For a send away I would imagine that like any reward based system, you never completely lose the reward, you just put it on a variable reinforcement schedule, so the dog becomes a gambler about shooting for the reward.

Ideally the act of running to the crate becomes rewarding in and of itself. The science behind how behaviors themselves become rewarding is a bit cluttered up in my pea brain, so I struggle to explain it, Im just at the stage where I know it when I see it. Sorry! Thats not very helpful is it?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

For the gundog version, you use a fence or wall, something long and straight and put out a retrieve. Initially you only use small distances, and build them up so the dog is confident going out there that there is something to retrieve. 

Having a corner to work into is useful, as you can then move out once you've got your dog doing straight lines confidently, and send into the corner for the retrieve. 

Walls/fences are used to build up directions, the dog is sat with their back to the wall/fence, the retrieves are thrown out either side, and the dog is sent one way or the other, then sat and the process repeated. 

With gundog training, it's important that the dog doesn't get all the retrieves, at the end of direction training I pick up the retrieve objects while they are sat steady. 

Once you've got your dogs working along straight *guides* it's just a matter of building up confidence to get them working without anything to run along. Memory retrieves come in handy at this point, where the dog watches you put out or throw something, and you can walk them away before sending them for it. There are loads of variations, and of course you can start putting out two or three retrieves, throwing out blinds whilst they are out retrieving something else, stop on the whistle and redirect for the retrieve, etc, etc. Once they have confidence in you that *something* could be out there for them to retrieve, they will run out with confidence. I say that as I have chocolate Labradors which aren't particularly quick.


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## scarter (Apr 26, 2009)

OK, thanks all. Some interesting stuff to think about there.

Ouesi - let me tell you a little about our Beagles!!!  OK, I guess lots of breeds are selectively bred to work with humans. So a send away is hard for them. The most familiar view of an untrained Beagle is their backside. They have no qualms about running away from you at great speed - up to several miles!!

So, one of the reasons for practicing this drill is we figure that if we can get them hurtling away at breakneck speed on command it's a great way to practice the 'stop' command. On off-lead walks (we rarely do them nowadays because of the consequences when they 'revert to type') the first sign you've lost them is when their body suddenly drops, without warning and the little bum turns into a dot on the horizon and disappears. If we can send them away from us with great enthusiasm in a controlled way it gives us ample opportunity to practice the stop.

The other reason is for a basic drill for canicross. So they're out in front of us on a line. We say 'go' that means run fast with a steady tension on the line. We want to reinforce that off the line by having go as meaning "just run straight ahead until I say otherwise. A couple of other places it'll be useful too.

So anyway, the running away from us to a target is a doddle. We had that in the first 5 minutes practice. (to be fair, they already had an agility send away). We weaned them off the target by hiding it just over the brow of the hill. So they 'thought' they knew where it was and they were still enthusiastic. Because it was clicker trained we'd also click and random distances between us and the target - so the target wasn't the be all and end all - running towards it and waiting for the click (or stop command) was what mattered. But when you're on flat ground and you can't fool them into thinking the target is there they loose enthusiasm. They still run away but it's lacklustre. Now I was swithering about going back to the target but based on what you're saying Jenny I'm thinking that as they're basically doing what we want, better now to just work on building up enthusiasm for the activity. So I guess rewarding the best attempts more heavily - and phasing out some of the rewards for the lackluster runs.

Smokeybear, also thinking about what you say about not weaning them off the target...think I see what you're getting at. I might go down that route but want to see if I can just get the enthusiasm for doing it for the sake of it. They do love to run .... with a passion. Choice between ball, treat or run like the wind and they'll choose the run. Sleeping lion - you're taking the same approach as smokeybear - 'pretending' there's always something there?

I do think it's a handy little skill to have - so many uses for it. Is it mainly a schutzhund discipline? It only occurred to me how useful it'd be when I saw the video I posted earlier.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

With gundog training the dogs don't get every retrieve, so when they do get the retrieve, they seem to be that much more enthusiastic about it. I haven't done for ages as I've been too busy, but to teach steadiness training, I sit my dog and throw balls/dummies around, and they are expected to just sit, they don't get one single retrieve during steadiness training, that's where they learn that not every retrieve is for them, which is reinforced in other training. 

As said, during training, you don't pretend there is something there, there is always something there, maybe not always out in a straight line, but there is always a retrieve to send them out for, otherwise why would they want to go out? The type of retrieve may vary, they may be asked to redirect, even to come back towards you, after all recall is another direction, but that retrieve is always there for them to find and maintain their confidence and desire to get out there as fast as they can, which isn't hugely fast for my dogs, but is fast enough for me.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

In Working Trials the sendaway appears in all stakes and it can be up to around 300 yards I think is the biggest one I have seen, with one (or more redirects) which are not necessarily at right angles. There are no marks for speed etc.

In Schutzhund many people use a ball dropper or a pheasant chucker as attitude is everything in this sport although the sendaways are shorter than in WT.


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