# Hand rearing



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Ive just had my neighbours at my door informing me the mother to their 2-3 week old kittens has been missing for 48 hours.

Considering these are people who had a cat PTS for not being friendly enough, ive said if they get all the stuff from the vets, then i will take them on and finishing rearing them.

Now i have reared a fair few animals, but never a cat, so need all the help and advice i can get please.

I havent got the kittens yet (im hoping they dont just leave them to starve or have them PTS) but i want to get as prepared as i can just in case.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

You will need a 1mil syringe,some cimicat milk replacement or other good make (royalcanin babycat or KMR) 


Feed kit very very slowly on its belly never feed upside down(feet up) it will drowned.
Feed around every couple of hour as much as kit will take.
You need some scales that weigh in grams,kitten needs to at least be gaining 10 gram a day.
Make sure you toilet the kitten with cotton wool and warm water it cant do it its self,maybe worth doing before a feed as if they need to toilet can make them angry kitten and wont feed.
It will take a bit for them to get used to syringe they will try to fight you just keep trying.
Make sure kittens are on heat pad of water bottle as they cant digest food if not warm.
Never give cows milk it will make them really ill.
Goats milk can be given if in emergency but the milk replacement is better.
In a weeks time try them with mushy cat food as we start weaning at 3 weeks and they tuck in.
Good luck its hard work.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

You need to get them in your care ASAP so they don't get cold and don't go too long without being fed. If she has been missing for 48 hours those kittens will probably be not at all well - just go round and ask to take them, then sort things out starting with warmth and oral rehydration. If you ask people like this to get the feeding materials the kittens will die before they do so.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> You will need a 1mil syringe,some cimicat milk replacement or other good make (royalcanin babycat or KMR)
> 
> 
> Feed kit very very slowly on its belly never feed upside down(feet up) it will drowned.
> ...


I've added bullets to make the separate points clearer. It's all good stuff though I've read elsewhere to toilet before and after each feed. You might find the cotton pads sold for removing makeup easier than cotton wool unless you buy a pack of cotton wool balls.

Good luck, hope they are still alive.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Just to add, I'm favouring the sponge method for feeding small kittens. I think it's a lot safer than syringes or feeding bottles.


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Right, they are here (he just carried them over, didnt even bother with a box or something that smells of mum ). Very lively and vocal, not dehydrated, but also very hungry.

Im not convinced mum has been gone for over 48 hours. Took them a week once to notice one of their cats was even missing, so what they say i take with a pinch of salt. They could be lying tbh. I know how disappointed they were when they turned out to be tabby and a black, as mums a blue and they were expecting colours they could profit from.

They were two weeks old on monday.

I have cimicat, but only one syringe. A stock of them is now on my list of things to get.

Ive fed each kit as much as it will eat, and both have had a pee after being stimulated. They fed very well, but im finding controlling the speed of the syringe quite hard with such a small animal, is there a safer alternative?

They have a microwaved heat pod, and a pound puppy to curl up to, and are both now curled up asleep. How warm do they need to be to digest? Only one is sleeping on it, the other is next to it.

I dont have scales, but someone i know is popping some around later so i can monitor weights.

How often should they be pooping?

Also, i have an older cat who may try to mother them, is this safe or should she be kept away?

When do i need to worm them and whats the best thing to use?

Sorry is this is disjointed, lack of sleep.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> is there a safer alternative?


Have a look at this. A pack of cheap face sponges from Superdrug is an easy enough buy.

Lilly Blossom drinking from the miracle sponge April 6, 2013 - YouTube


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

havoc said:


> Have a look at this. A pack of cheap face sponges from Superdrug is an easy enough buy.
> 
> Lilly Blossom drinking from the miracle sponge April 6, 2013 - YouTube


Oh wow, that looks much safer.

Another thing to add to my list.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> They have a microwaved heat pod


In the current temperatures I wouldn't have any extra heat. I have kittens days old and there's no way I'd be putting a heat mat in there. The mum is feeding them and then spending a lot of time on the laminate floor outside the nest because it's so warm.



> Sorry is this is disjointed, lack of sleep.


I have found that as long as kittens are feeding well and often during the day they will survive for 5 or 6 hours overnight so you can get some sleep. I know the 'books' say you must feed every 2 hours around the clock, in real life you have to be able to keep going so you have to work a sustainable regime.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Nonnie said:


> Right, they are here (he just carried them over, didnt even bother with a box or something that smells of mum ). Very lively and vocal, not dehydrated, but also very hungry.
> 
> Im not convinced mum has been gone for over 48 hours. Took them a week once to notice one of their cats was even missing, so what they say i take with a pinch of salt. They could be lying tbh. I know how disappointed they were when they turned out to be tabby and a black, as mums a blue and they were expecting colours they could profit from.
> 
> ...


Is it a new syringe? It should glide really smoothly,if not try take it apart are lubricate it in the milk before putting it back together,the 1 mil syringes are easier to control.

If they are disappointed they didn't get no blues then they should have read up on genetics 1st as it takes both parents to either be dilute or carry dilute to get a blue.So daddy cat maybe doesn't carry dilute.


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

havoc said:


> In the current temperatures I wouldn't have any extra heat. I have kittens days old and there's no way I'd be putting a heat mat in there. The mum is feeding them and then spending a lot of time on the laminate floor outside the nest because it's so warm.
> 
> I have found that as long as kittens are feeding well and often during the day they will survive for 5 or 6 hours overnight so you can get some sleep. I know the 'books' say you must feed every 2 hours around the clock, in real life you have to be able to keep going so you have to work a sustainable regime.


Right, i shall remove the heat pad. I was a little concerned about cooking them.



we love bsh's said:


> Is it a new syringe? It should glide really smoothly,if not try take it apart are lubricate it in the milk before putting it back together,the 1 mil syringes are easier to control.
> 
> If they are disappointed they didn't get no blues then they should have read up on genetics 1st as it takes both parents to either be dilute or carry dilute to get a blue.So daddy cat maybe doesn't carry dilute.


Yes, brand new and sterile. I was more worried about pushing it too fast, rather than too slowly. I shall get some 1ml ones, as this one is 5ml.

As to knowledge, well.....best i keep my possible 4 page rant to myself. This isnt the first time ive cleared up their cat related mess for them. Always shocks me, as they are incredibly well off and well educated.


----------



## HoneyFern (Aug 27, 2009)

How are you holding the syringe? I find you have more control holding it in your palm rather than between your fingers.


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

HoneyFern said:


> How are you holding the syringe? I find you have more control holding it in your palm rather than between your fingers.


Oh i can hold it correctly, i should mention i used to be a vet nurse so i know some theory, although translating it into practice isnt always what its cracked up to be.

My main issue is that i have nerve damage and almost constane pins and needles in my hand, so its hard to tell what im doing and how quickly im pushing at times.

Im practicing between feeds with an old syringe though, and getting there.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Maybe the old syringe will be easier to use? At least these little kittens have had a couple of weeks of suckling which will help their immune systems no end, and they are a lot bigger and more robust than new-borns.


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Havoc, i find it interesting that you're using the sponge method as it's something I've been keen to try for topping up with the next litter. Would be really grateful if you could provide me a blow by blow if you have the time, as I can't see what she's doing in the vid, and although I think I can follow, I don't want to guess when it comes to the kittens. Did they take to it more easily than the syringe? Mine normally fight like I'm trying to poison them, and while I still get the feed in, it's not nice for them, me or mummy.


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Second feed went well. I didnt need to apply any pressure to the syringe, they just sucked it straight down. A little too fast for my liking though, so i shall take measures to prevent that next time.

They are drinking between 6-8mls, does that sound right? I have weighed them, and both are 300g. Not digital scales though, so probably not that accurate.

Both have peed and one had an orangey poo.


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

If they're sucking it down quickly, sounds like they're hungry! No problem with it going quick as long as they're swallowing well, so I'd not worry. I tend to gicve as much as they want, letting them dictate when they've had enough just as they would with mummy.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

That's great that they are suckling and doing the work themselves makes it 10 x faster.So that's good.

The fact the poo is orange to me would suggest they have already been having formula feeds as normal fed kittens poop is brown,dont worry bout this as formula fed kittens poop will be this colour.

How many kittens are they?


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

havoc said:


> Just to add, I'm favouring the sponge method for feeding small kittens. I think it's a lot safer than syringes or feeding bottles.


I presume you use a new bit of sponge for each feed - I can see how to clean a syringe, but not a sponge!


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

we love bsh's said:


> That's great that they are suckling and doing the work themselves makes it 10 x faster.So that's good.
> 
> The fact the poo is orange to me would suggest they have already been having formula feeds as normal fed kittens poop is brown,dont worry bout this as formula fed kittens poop will be this colour.
> 
> How many kittens are they?


Just two thankfully.

Only one has pooped so far, but both feeding well and very active and vocal. Both peeing every time i stimulate too.

Had some purring, and they seem to be attempting to play and wash themselves, although i am wiping them over with a warm damp cloth to keep them clean.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Nonnie said:


> Just two thankfully.
> 
> Only one has pooped so far, but both feeding well and very active and vocal. Both peeing every time i stimulate too.
> 
> Had some purring, and they seem to be attempting to play and wash themselves, although i am wiping them over with a warm damp cloth to keep them clean.


They have a good chance been the age they are,did you manage to find out there correct age? As when they reach 3 weeks you can try them with the muchy food.Ill help you with how to start that when the time comes


----------



## Cheryl89 (Jun 24, 2013)

I have no input to help but just wanted to say its a lovely thing what you're doing, if only everybody was like you x


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

we love bsh's said:


> They have a good chance been the age they are,did you manage to find out there correct age? As when they reach 3 weeks you can try them with the muchy food.Ill help you with how to start that when the time comes


Yes, im 100% sure about their ages, which is 15 days.

What do you recommend weaning them onto? I need to look at getting some food in now due to getting it delivered.

This is them. I did put the heat pod back in, as it started to feel a little chilly, and they were huddled in a corner. There is plenty of room for them to get away from it as its a very large box.


















The black one is a female, the tabby and white a male.

How much vocalising is normal? They pretty much cry constantly when awake, although i assume some of this is because they are missing mum and not just because they are hungry.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Nonnie said:


> Yes, im 100% sure about their ages, which is 15 days.
> 
> What do you recommend weaning them onto? I need to look at getting some food in now due to getting it delivered.
> 
> ...


Yeah sound like calling for mum,and if mum has gone walking the only reason she would is to mate again  unless something bad happened to her.

What we buy is natural instincts its a faw feed and is a complete food,its good stuff and will put good weight onto them.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Sounds like they are doing really well, and it's rather less than 48 hours since the mother allegedly decamped... They look big for 15 days and sound rather advanced for 15 days - maybe your neighbours told you a porkie about their age?

Kittens with their mothers usually wean themselves by copying her, and/or investigating her food, swimming in it and cleaning themselves up. Although it's not a kitten food I feel that the Catz Finefoods would be good as it's grain-free and the right sort of consistency - a bit like a pate. It has a strong smell as well when it's warm. You can get pouches (super-expensive), 200g tins or 400g tins. The 200g tins would probably be fine. Put a couple of teaspoons out on a shallow dish and put the tin in the fridge.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

OrientalSlave said:


> Sounds like they are doing really well, and it's rather less than 48 hours since the mother allegedly decamped... They look big for 15 days and sound rather advanced for 15 days - maybe your neighbours told you a porkie about their age?
> 
> Kittens with their mothers usually wean themselves by copying her, and/or investigating her food, swimming in it and cleaning themselves up. Although it's not a kitten food I feel that the Catz Finefoods would be good as it's grain-free and the right sort of consistency - a bit like a pate. It has a strong smell as well when it's warm. You can get pouches (super-expensive), 200g tins or 400g tins. The 200g tins would probably be fine. Put a couple of teaspoons out on a shallow dish and put the tin in the fridge.


I thought they looked big too but thought maybe the pics are deceiving.

Op if you can get them weighed that will give you a better idea on age.


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

we love bsh's said:


> Yeah sound like calling for mum,and if mum has gone walking the only reason she would is to mate again  unless something bad happened to her.
> 
> What we buy is natural instincts its a faw feed and is a complete food,its good stuff and will put good weight onto them.


There are atleast 2 Toms around here, so that wouldnt surprise me.

I dont think i can get NI. they dont sell it locally, and i dont have freezer space for a large order as i wanted to try my dogs on it and found the minimum order is too much.


OrientalSlave said:


> Sounds like they are doing really well, and it's rather less than 48 hours since the mother allegedly decamped... They look big for 15 days and sound rather advanced for 15 days - maybe your neighbours told you a porkie about their age?
> 
> Kittens with their mothers usually wean themselves by copying her, and/or investigating her food, swimming in it and cleaning themselves up. Although it's not a kitten food I feel that the Catz Finefoods would be good as it's grain-free and the right sort of consistency - a bit like a pate. It has a strong smell as well when it's warm. You can get pouches (super-expensive), 200g tins or 400g tins. The 200g tins would probably be fine. Put a couple of teaspoons out on a shallow dish and put the tin in the fridge.


They were born on the 8th, which is 100% accurate as i looked after them and mum for 3 days. My neighbours were getting ready to go away and getting in the taxi at the exact time they were being born! Enough said tbh. Once they saw their colouring, they lost all interest.

I think the pic makes them look huge, i shall take some more later when they wake up (enjoying the silence for now).

I currently feed my lot Animonda Carny, Bozita tetrapaks and similar stuff. I tend to buy whats the best offer tbh. Would any of those be any good?


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

we love bsh's said:


> I thought they looked big too but thought maybe the pics are deceiving.
> 
> Op if you can get them weighed that will give you a better idea on age.


300g, give or take. The scales i have borrowed arent digital, just the old fashioned ones.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Nonnie said:


> 300g, give or take. The scales i have borrowed arent digital, just the old fashioned ones.


That's what the average of my last foster litter was at that age - my Oriental kittens are smaller but that's simply how Oriental kittens are.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Nonnie said:


> <snip>
> 
> I dont think i can get NI. they dont sell it locally, and i dont have freezer space for a large order as i wanted to try my dogs on it and found the minimum order is too much.
> 
> ...


You can get Fellini Complete which is a powder you add to mince plus a little liver (I think). Reckon the stuff you are feeding would be fine. They are not kitten food as such, but are probably better than kitten Felix or kitten Whiskas.

Just spooned some Catz out for Lola and it's quite firm when it's been in the fridge. Softening it with a little warm water might help them try it.


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

OrientalSlave said:


> That's what the average of my last foster litter was at that age - my Oriental kittens are smaller but that's simply how Oriental kittens are.


Ahh thats good.

I am skeptical about how long mums been missing tbh, i imagine they just noticed anything untoward today because of the noise they are making. They are out all day everyday most of the time, and rarely notice a thing.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Nonnie said:


> <snip>
> 
> I am skeptical about how long mums been missing tbh, i imagine they just noticed anything untoward today because of the noise they are making. They are out all day everyday most of the time, and rarely notice a thing.


Me too as 48 hours without mum is very serious for kittens at this age but they are clearly very well. Sounds like they have full tummies and are content now. Bet if she comes back they have kittens on or about the 24th September...


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Nonnie said:


> 300g, give or take. The scales i have borrowed arent digital, just the old fashioned ones.


That would suggest 3 weeks but as they are only 2 kittens they could be a little bigger for their age that would be normal.


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

OrientalSlave said:


> Me too as 48 hours without mum is very serious for kittens at this age but they are clearly very well. Sounds like they have full tummies and are content now. Bet if she comes back they have kittens on or about the 24th September...


It wouldnt surprise me. They keep letting their cats breed with the local STD riddled Tom (which they think is a Maine Coon lol). They couldnt home the last litter, so god knows why they let this one have kittens, she was one of lasts years so is only just over a year old herself.

These are some clearer pics:


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

It might be the photos, it might be me being used to looking at Oriental kittens (when Lola lets me!) but those look huge for their age!


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

OrientalSlave said:


> It might be the photos, it might be me being used to looking at Oriental kittens (when Lola lets me!) but those look huge for their age!


lol, they seem tiny to me.

Couple of questions:

How often should they be pooping? Only one has gone so far. Fine on the pee front - they both go after every feed.

Is it normal for them to be quite vocal after feeding? Some feeds im struggling to get any more than 5mls down them, but they still seem hungry.


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Nonnie said:


> lol, they seem tiny to me.
> 
> Couple of questions:
> 
> ...


Ideally, they'd poo at least once a day. Changing from mum's milk to formula can upset their digestive system either way but in my experience constipation can be more of a problem. 5ml per feed isn't a huge amount for kittens of their age though I'd only give them what they were happily prepared to take. I wouldn't say it was 'usual' for kittens to be noisy after a feed - the opposite really. As only one of the kittens has 'gone' since hand feeding it's possible they've become slightly constipated... but it IS often difficult to get kittens of that age to poo even in the absence of constipation.

I've sometimes found that stimulating them to go often works better when they're laying in their 'nest', a little sleepy and therefore a bit more relaxed. A warm, damp flannel (which has a slightly rougher texture than, say, cotton wool) I've found often helps.


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

gskinner123 said:


> Ideally, they'd poo at least once a day. Changing from mum's milk to formula can upset their digestive system either way but in my experience constipation can be more of a problem. 5ml per feed isn't a huge amount for kittens of their age though I'd only give them what they were happily prepared to take. I wouldn't say it was 'usual' for kittens to be noisy after a feed - the opposite really. As only one of the kittens has 'gone' since hand feeding it's possible they've become slightly constipated... but it IS often difficult to get kittens of that age to poo even in the absence of constipation.
> 
> I've sometimes found that stimulating them to go often works better when they're laying in their 'nest', a little sleepy and therefore a bit more relaxed. A warm, damp flannel (which has a slightly rougher texture than, say, cotton wool) I've found often helps.


When i say noisy i dont mean a constant crying. They seem to wander around for about 1 or 2 mins, meowing, then they find a spot, curl up and sleep through until i wake them for their next feed.

Ive learnt not to continue handling them after a meal. They just cry constantly if i do and attempt to suckle on my fingers (of fully chew on them).

What im starting to do is feed one, stimulate and clean it, then change, then go back to the first and repeat step one. I seem to get more down them if i give them a break.

What can be done for constipation? I obviously want to be careful not to do anything that causes the runs, but it is concerning me that only one has gone. How long is it safe to leave without a vet visit?


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Nonnie said:


> When i say noisy i dont mean a constant crying. They seem to wander around for about 1 or 2 mins, meowing, then they find a spot, curl up and sleep through until i wake them for their next feed.
> 
> Ive learnt not to continue handling them after a meal. They just cry constantly if i do and attempt to suckle on my fingers (of fully chew on them).
> 
> ...


The FAB page on hand rearing recommends toileting kittens prior to feeding as they feed better with an empty bowel. In practice, I've always found that quite difficult as a crying, hungry, wriggly kitten in my hands wants feeding.. not the toilet at that moment! I think that's where stimulating them to go, just before a feed and whilst they're still laying in the box sleeping can bring more success by mimicking what their mother would do; i.e. to wake the kittens for feeding she'll usually give them a good wash down their flanks/on their tummies (and only then onto the rear end) which stimulates the digestive tract.

You can treat kittens of that age at home with (shop bought) Lactulose but I'd be wary of doing that unless I was absolutely certain a kitten was constipated - i.e. seeing the kitten visibly strain to go, without success, or producing hard stools; at this age the consistency of the stools should be toothpaste-like. It might be helpful (and certainly wouldn't be harmful even if they aren't constipated) to alternate a few feeds for 24 hours with tepid, boiled water - though once they realise it's plain water they do object.

If it were me, I wouldn't want to leave it past tomorrow morning before seeking the vet's advice re possible constipation.


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

gskinner123 said:


> The FAB page on hand rearing recommends toileting kittens prior to feeding as they feed better with an empty bowel. In practice, I've always found that quite difficult as a crying, hungry, wriggly kitten in my hands wants feeding.. not the toilet at that moment! I think that's where stimulating them to go, just before a feed and whilst they're still laying in the box sleeping can bring more success by mimicking what their mother would do; i.e. to wake the kittens for feeding she'll usually give them a good wash down their flanks/on their tummies (and only then onto the rear end) which stimulates the digestive tract.
> 
> You can treat kittens of that age at home with (shop bought) Lactulose but I'd be wary of doing that unless I was absolutely certain a kitten was constipated - i.e. seeing the kitten visibly strain to go, without success, or producing hard stools; at this age the consistency of the stools should be toothpaste-like. It might be helpful (and certainly wouldn't be harmful even if they aren't constipated) to alternate a few feeds for 24 hours with tepid, boiled water - though once they realise it's plain water they do object.
> 
> If it were me, I wouldn't want to leave it past tomorrow morning before seeking the vet's advice re possible constipation.


Thats wonderful, thank you.

I shall try prefeeding stimulating next meal. Each had around 8ml the feed ive just done. No post feed crying, although no pooping either. I did get a kitten fart though.


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

If they're passing wind without actually going I think I'd be inclined to persist a while longer with stimulating them to go. I appreciate it's difficult though as you don't want to make them sore. At times when a kitten's rear end does look a little sore, I've swapped the flannel/cotton wool for massaging their bottoms with a small amount of mineral oil on my thumb.

I've always found that the best indicator for a possibly constipated kitten is seeing a slow, but gradual decline in how many ml's of feed they'll (greedily and happily) take. I think that's where using a syringe - as I think you're doing? - comes in very handy as you can note down the exact amount they're taking at each feed and a downward trend over a couple of days is a good alert.

The upside is they're not just a few days old and another week or so might see them able to 'go' themselves in a tray. But it's bloody hard work in the meantime, I know!


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

This is the FAB's advice on constipated kittens:


> Constipation is a very common problem in hand reared kittens, due to the difficulty in stimulating defecation sufficiently frequently. Normal faeces have the consistency of toothpaste. If the faeces become very hard, making the kitten strain excessively, or if a kitten does not pass any motions for 2-3 days, small doses of liquid paraffin or 'Katalax' should be given (about 0.5 ml per feed for 2-3 days should have the desired effect). Severe cases require veterinary attention.


Someone here has suggested alternating milk & water (or oral rehydration fluid) for a couple of days to see if that resolves the problem.

You might be making up the feed very slightly too strong as well.


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

OrientalSlave said:


> This is the FAB's advice on constipated kittens:
> 
> Someone here has suggested alternating milk & water (or oral rehydration fluid) for a couple of days to see if that resolves the problem.
> 
> You might be making up the feed very slightly too strong as well.


Oh that website is fantastic. Im sticking to the instructions on the tub quite anally, would it be worth making it slightly weaker? Its Cimicat.

Quick update: The tabby that pooped yesterday, has pooped again. He is however, the most reluctant feeder, dispite his strong start yesterday. I just have this awful feeling im going to lose him.

The little black girl is feeding really well, but still no poop. Ive spoken to my vet, who is happy to leave her another 24 hours, although im going to try just a cooled boiled water feed next to see if this helps things along.

Ive ordered a Catac feeding bottle as im really not comfortable with the syringe, and they dont seem to like the hard plastic. The sponge method was a no no; just got spat out. I dont think im skilled enough to master that one.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> You might be making up the feed very slightly too strong as well


Wouldn't overly rich feed have the opposite effect to constipation?


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> im really not comfortable with the syringe, and they dont seem to like the hard plastic


No wonder you aren't finding it easy. There are teats which you put on syringes - never crossed my mind you were trying to feed them straight from the syringe.
Catac Products Ltd Standard Spare Teat x 3 - Catac Products Ltd from Vet Medic UK


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

havoc said:


> No wonder you aren't finding it easy. There are teats which you put on syringes - never crossed my mind you were trying to feed them straight from the syringe.
> Catac Products Ltd Standard Spare Teat x 3 - Catac Products Ltd from Vet Medic UK


Cant get anything for hand rearing kittens in my area. Two vets, two petshops, and not a single product stocked, so the poor buggers are having to suck on the plastic nib. Really am having to wing it a bit tbh.

Ive got the Catac feeder coming tomorrow (i paid extra for guaranteed delivery) so if they dont like that, i will at least have the teats to use on the syringes.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Was told about a kitten swallowing a teat of a syringe and choking... 

The person that told me about this suggested pointing the syringe across the kittens mouth rather than down it's throat so that if it jerks you squirt the milk out the other side of it's mouth.

And I do mean to make the feed a little weaker to prevent constipation - am thinking there isn't quite enough water there hence hard stools, same as any other food.


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Contrary to what the logical part of my brain tells me I believe that, for a constipated kitten, the advice is generally to make the formula a little stronger - i.e. slightly less volume of water to formula. I must admit to never having tried this for a constipated kitten as extra fluids - Lectade or plain water - given in between feeds and, on occasion, a tiny dose of Lactulose has done the trick. I'm not sure why I've always been reluctant to play around with dilutions of formula rather than resorting to Lactulose.. but there you go


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Contrary to what the logical part of my brain tells me I believe that, for a constipated kitten, the advice is generally to make the formula a little stronger


That's what I thought. Like you though I'd rather leave the concentration as it should be. A tiny drop of liquid paraffin would be enough. Did have one thought, if those kittens really hadn't eaten for a while it could just be taking a day or two for their systems to get back into sync. I mean, surely you shouldn't expect the first solid 'output' until a day or so after the first feed.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Was told about a kitten swallowing a teat of a syringe and choking...


I've used them for years and never had a problem though like you I've had plenty of people give me second hand horror stories. Never met anyone who has actually had a kitten choke.



> And I do mean to make the feed a little weaker to prevent constipation - am thinking there isn't quite enough water there hence hard stools, same as any other food.


If lack of liquid was the issue then it's urine output which would be affected first and there's no problem with that.


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

havoc said:


> Did have one thought, if those kittens really hadn't eaten for a while it could just be taking a day or two for their systems to get back into sync. I mean, surely you shouldn't expect the first solid 'output' until a day or so after the first feed.


That's a good point, hadn't thought about that. Which rather unfortunately reminds me to expect 'output' sometime very soon from a 4 week old litter who ate their first (too large, I fear) solids meal yesterday morning


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

She's pooped!

There was a lot of noise, a pffft, then i had poop all over my hand as it missed the tissue.

Both eating much better as well. I think my skills have improved. Taking around 10ml per feed now.


----------



## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

Thats great news - bet you have never been so pleased to be pooed on


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

wicket said:


> Thats great news - bet you have never been so pleased to be pooed on


I actually did a little cheer.

I dont know how people breed or foster tbh. My nerves are frayed already, and its not even been 48 hours 

Im far too pessimistic and paranoid.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I have fostered several litters and one thing I didn't do was give the kittens names. One litter died before 2 weeks old - they faded - and another got ill with a virus after adoption except for the 2 that went as a pair. One of those died, the woman at the rescue failed totally to communicate with the new owners. My last foster litter were a joy - 5 healthy kittens, and trusting and loving mother. 

Not looking forward to Lola's kittens leaving even though that's 10-12 weeks away!


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Well, the kittens are now officially my property. Ive not got it in writing, although i do have two witnesses to a verbal contract. Not that i believe there are going to be any problems, they seem happy to have got ridden of them tbh, and arent even upset mum still isnt home 

My neighbours are going to pay for any food, litter, vets etc, which was a concern for me, although im sure i'll end up getting a few extras for them. They have given me a bag if Royal Canin dry kitten and weaning that they used for their last litter (just a few months ago) but im going to feed a quality wet instead to will have to suck the cost of that up. Made £40 on FB today selling my stuff.

The feeding bottle has arrived, and wow what a difference. Meals take longer, but they seem so much more content being able to suckle properly and are taking so much more food each sitting. 

The little black female has passed an enormous amount of poop today (she was the one that was consipated) so it looks like we have managed to get over that hurdle.

Carny kitten has been ordered. Just need to sort out some sort of kitten pen now, as i have nowhere secure to leave them once they start moving around, and i need to make sure they are supervised and safe around my dogs and other cats.

I was thinking of using my dog cage or a large guinea pig cage i have, but i think the bar spacing is too big and they would get their heads stuck.

Would one of those fabric puppy pens be any good? 

Sorry for boring anyone, i just have no one else to share with.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Nonnie said:


> Well, the kittens are now officially my property. Ive not got it in writing, although i do have two witnesses to a verbal contract. Not that i believe there are going to be any problems, they seem happy to have got ridden of them tbh, and arent even upset mum still isnt home
> 
> My neighbours are going to pay for any food, litter, vets etc, which was a concern for me, although im sure i'll end up getting a few extras for them. They have given me a bag if Royal Canin dry kitten and weaning that they used for their last litter (just a few months ago) but im going to feed a quality wet instead to will have to suck the cost of that up. Made £40 on FB today selling my stuff.
> 
> ...


We have a large GSD size create and I don't have any probs with kittens getting out. I put inside is a pillow case used as a hammock for when there older then the floor can be used for litter tray only,i use a hooked water bowl so they cant spill water.I line floor with news paper for easy cleaning.


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I'd not use a dog crate for the reasons you've given. A fabric one will be just fine!


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

How do people keep feeding equipment clean and sterile?

My vet suggested cleaning normally, then keeping in a solution of Milton until the next feed (rinsing before use of course) but ive noticed that since ive started doing that, the little tabby is really reluctant to feed.

I know some human babies refuse items that have been in Milton, so im wondering if he is the same.

Its mainly the teats im having problems keeping clean and sterile.


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

The smallest one (little tabby) is not feeding well anymore. He wont suckle, and fights me the entire time. He's probably getting half the amount of milk he should be. Its been almost 24 hours since his last willing meal, although i am getting about 6mls down him each meal.

He is active, and plays with his litter mate and gnaws on my fingers, but he is noticeable weaker. He is still peeing and pooing.

Im going to take him to the vets today, but im just wondering if i can start weaning early? They will be 3 weeks on monday, and im thinking high calorie AD diet might give him a kick start.

Ive been reading a few sights this morning, and hypoglycemia seems to be a possibility. Has anyone used a glucose syrup or is it just best to let the vet provide something?


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I use sugar water. 30 ML of water to 1 tsp of sugar, if I don't have anything else in. Sounds like you need to get some NutriDrops too. They're amazingly good at keeping a flagging kitten going. I use Milton for my equipment too, but if you're worried about them not feeding, you can always boil and cool some water, then rinse the feed items off with that to get rid of the Milton before trying to feed.


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

carly87 said:


> I use sugar water. 30 ML of water to 1 tsp of sugar, if I don't have anything else in. Sounds like you need to get some NutriDrops too. They're amazingly good at keeping a flagging kitten going. I use Milton for my equipment too, but if you're worried about them not feeding, you can always boil and cool some water, then rinse the feed items off with that to get rid of the Milton before trying to feed.


Ive been rinsing the Milton off, but i dont think thats the issue now.

Would a vet sell NutriDrops? If i order online, they wont be here in time.

With the sugar water, how much do you feed, and do you give it alone, or before a milk feed?

Im prepared for the worst with him


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

He's had 1ml of a weak suger water, followed by 4 mls of milk (a few sites i read said the milk feed should follow immediately).

He takes water better than he does milk, as i have been giving a water feed as i was worried about dehydration due to the reduced amount he is drinking. That said he has no actual signs of dehydration.

He just had the most enormous poop. Up until now, his poo has been quite wet with not a lot of form. Well this one was like golden toothpaste, and probably a good few inches long. It just kept coming.

He is now having a bundle with his sister.

Hmmm...could he have been a bit backed up which reduced his appetite? His teeth are also just starting to come through i think, would this make them reluctant to feed?

Btw, i am in constant contact with my vet, im not completely winging it.


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Nonnie said:


> Hmmm...could he have been a bit backed up which reduced his appetite?


I reckon so, Nonnie. I know you were worried about hypoglycemia but I honestly can't see any reason why that should be - I know you said he's been taking reduced amounts of food but he's still been feeding very regularly nonetheless.

Without scrolling back I can't remember when you said they reach 3 weeks old? I'd be inclined at that stage to try a bit of a/d as you said and also some tiny bits of raw minced beef.

I personally think milk/formula feeding is a trickier business than a lot of people think! I'm sure he'll do a lot better once he's on some solids and has a bit more control (of his own accord) of his bowels.


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

gskinner123 said:


> I reckon so, Nonnie. I know you were worried about hypoglycemia but I honestly can't see any reason why that should be - I know you said he's been taking reduced amounts of food but he's still been feeding very regularly nonetheless.
> 
> Without scrolling back I can't remember when you said they reach 3 weeks old? I'd be inclined at that stage to try a bit of a/d as you said and also some tiny bits of raw minced beef.
> 
> I personally think milk/formula feeding is a trickier business than a lot of people think! I'm sure he'll do a lot better once he's on some solids and has a bit more control (of his own accord) of his bowels.


They will be 3 weeks on monday, which is why i was thinking of starting today with the AD. I just cant find any info as to whether or not they are able to process solids at this age.

Im feeding him every 2 hours, his sister every 3-4 as she is an excellent feeder and a right fatty!

I think many people have some romantic views over hand rearing; a tiny kitten suckling from a bottle awww. But its an emotional rollercoaster and really hard work and ive only been doing it a few days! Hats off to anyone who does this on a regular basis, im certainly not cut out for it. Too much of a paranoid worrier, and im finding very hard emotionally. Everytime he nods off when im holding him i think he's died.

I shall get a few tins of AD today, as i have to go and get some more cimicat and some syringes. Im speaking to my vet this morning so i will get his take on things. So far he has been happyish and said that there is little he can do that im not already doing bar tube feeding, which is a route we dont want to go down unless absolutely necessary.

I tell you what, theory really does not prepare one for reality. I feel like all the 'knowledge' i have is meaningless when put into practice, as NOTHING is textbook.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

There are two things beyond tube feeding your vet could do if necessary. Prescribe Synulox drops, and give sub-cutaneous fluids.

But hopefully the massive poo will help him feel better. It might be worth trying a tin of A/D - or one of the tiny tins of HiLife pate. Has the advantage of opening a much smaller tin. 

Just smear a little round their mouths and let them clean it off. The youngest I've seen a kitten eating is 3 weeks.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Don't worry about the age for weaning iv had 2 and a half week olds try solids and the fact teeth are coming in to me says they are ready to have a try.

Shame you arnt close to me iv got nutri drops and some AB's left over from a kitten I nearly lost.

Did I just read something about tube feeding? This is what I had to do with the kitten iv just mentioned,its great as a last resort and easy when you know how but its vital you see it done before attempting it.Tbh I don't think you will need that route I think they will be on solids very soon.


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Nonnie said:


> They will be 3 weeks on monday, which is why i was thinking of starting today with the AD. I just cant find any info as to whether or not they are able to process solids at this age.
> 
> I think many people have some romantic views over hand rearing; a tiny kitten suckling from a bottle awww. But its an emotional rollercoaster and really hard work and ive only been doing it a few days!


Nonnie, apart from the kittens themselves there's really nothing 'cute' about hand-rearing, is there? I can honestly say that I don't enjoy it AT all; it feels fraught with worry and problems. But the satisfaction you'll get when they're a bit older and more independent will be immense 

Three weeks is the always quoted point for solid foods isn't it, but I don't think it could hurt to try them on some very small amounts (half a teaspoon or even less) over the weekend. If they won't take a/d from your fingers, it mixes easily with water and will go through your syringes with no problem; you'll need to use the syringe with no teat though.

It's very unlikely at this age that they'll help themselves to food so you'll either need to syringe in a little a/d or squish a few tiny pieces of raw minced beef into their mouths. Sometimes they take to it instantly.. other times it'll take several days.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I'm going to go against the grain here. These kittens have just transitioned from mother's milk to formula and it's taken a while for their digestive systems to adjust and settle. I wouldn't be rushing in another change just yet.


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Right, vets booked for this afternoon. Doubled book it with their head nurse who is experienced in hand rearing various species.

Got some Nutri-drops ordered which will be here guaranteed tomorrow (thank you viovet!)

Also, is this normal? This is one of the things that made me think hypoglycemia.

18 day old kitten - Dreaming? - YouTube


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Looks normal to me.


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

OrientalSlave said:


> Looks normal to me.


Lovely, thank you.

I was concerned that was the twitching associated with hypoglycemia. He stops if i stroke him.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Have seen my cats twitching when they are asleep. Saw nothing on the video comments that suggested that kitten had low blood sugar. I imagine that when you stroke him you wake him up a little.


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Just a quick update.

Little tabby went to the vets yesterday as he wasnt feeding well, and had lost his suckle reflex.

Vet said he was a little dehydrated (later confirmed by a rather dry poo - and quite dark urine) but he wasnt overly concerned, and just said to feed him watered down cimicat.

I got some glucose powder, and on the advice from a fosterer from my local cat rescue, i gave him glucose water every 2 hours, for 8 hours, then back to the cimicat.

Result - at 5am, he actively cried for food, suckled all by himself, and used the litter tray for the first time! He is feeding every 2 hours, his urine is now nice and pale, and he is so much more alert. Still a little weak, and looks a bit bedraggled, but certainly a step in the right direction.
Pooped loads last night, which surprised me as he had hardly eaten a thing.

The NutriDrops have arrived, and ive replaced the glucose water with those now that his hydration levels are better. He does NOT like the taste though, and i dont blame him, tried some and its vile.

The little black female got bunged up again, so had to resort to liquid parafin in the end, and she has passed a fair amount this afternoon. Feeds brilliantly though.

Even though my vet agreed about starting weaning early, ive decided to postpone it for a few more days, especially as they are both feeding so well, but mainly due to tabbys dehydration. I dont want to risk the runs until he is a bit stronger.

They are 3 weeks monday, and i was thinking of introducing the AD weds/thurs.


----------



## Jenny1966 (Feb 7, 2011)

Nonnie said:


> I dont think i can get NI. they dont sell it locally, and i dont have freezer space for a large order as i wanted to try my dogs on it and found the minimum order is too much.


You location says Surrey, have you tried this site for a delivery of NI?

I'm in Surrey and they deliver to me, and there is no minimum order 

http://www.mobilepetfoods.co.uk/section.php/25/1


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Who has recommended AD to you? It's very rich and normally upsets my kittens' tummies. There's no need to use AD unless they're very sick or mal-nourished and need building up, and by the sounds of it, yours don't. I thought you were going to use the Carni that you feed your adults?


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

carly87 said:


> Who has recommended AD to you? It's very rich and normally upsets my kittens' tummies. There's no need to use AD unless they're very sick or mal-nourished and need building up, and by the sounds of it, yours don't. I thought you were going to use the Carni that you feed your adults?


Both my vet, the cat rescue, and someone on here mentioned it. The little tabby certainly needs building up, as he is slightly scrawny and notably smaller.

I do have the Carny Kitten arriving monday, so will have options. I do want to choose the best for them.

I shall reasses midweek; i certainly dont want to cause diarrhoea.


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I really would just start with the Carni, then go onto AD only if the weight gains are crappy. AD might have been recommended because of its lovely gloopy texture.


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

carly87 said:


> I really would just start with the Carni, then go onto AD only if the weight gains are crappy. AD might have been recommended because of its lovely gloopy texture.


More than likely.

Going to work on lapping over the next few days. Already awesome at back scuttling and mauling fingers!


----------

