# Should breeders need a licence????



## xxSaffronxx (Apr 2, 2008)

Ok guys

Prompted from tonights show on the dog breeding, I would like to know if you all think that breeders of dogs & cats should have to apply for a licence to be a breeder and that this means that they are to be regularly vetted to ensure that they keep up to standards and are breeding good quality lines for the good of the breed.


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## Saynamore (Feb 28, 2008)

So long as we don't have to friggin pay for it Saffron!!!!!!!!! I would be all up for it but have just renewed my car tax so not a happy bunny!!! plus sending up for registrations fees as well, and we have had to pay £60 for our prefixes, so isnt there enough paying out already?


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## xxSaffronxx (Apr 2, 2008)

Saynamore said:


> So long as we don't have to friggin pay for it Saffron!!!!!!!!! I would be all up for it but have just renewed my car tax so not a happy bunny!!! plus sending up for registrations fees as well, and we have had to pay £60 for our prefixes, so isnt there enough paying out already?


Well yes true i guess i hadnt considered the monetary fact of the matter. But to enforce it i guess they would need to charge for the extra work incurred dont u think??
But yes i agree that we do already incur plenty of costs (that is those of us who do it properly incur lots of costs  )


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## Sungold-Bengals (Mar 10, 2008)

If it could put a stop to BYB then yes all for it


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

i dont think it would work because people would just breed and not bother register the pups


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## Saynamore (Feb 28, 2008)

Yeah I would go for a licence but I bet it would be more expense to pay for the friggin thing, like we dont have enough already!


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## xxSaffronxx (Apr 2, 2008)

Sungold-Bengals said:


> If it could put a stop to BYB then yes all for it


Especially with the Bengals Christina - i was appaled when I was enquiring about a breeding girl at how many BYBs there were!! It seems they have saturated the market!


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## Saynamore (Feb 28, 2008)

I don't think we will ever stop the byb's unless the internet sites back us, but cant see them ever agreeing  

We just got to try and keep on educating people as far as pedigrees go


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2008)

cavrooney said:


> i dont think it would work because people would just breed and not bother register the pups


It's going to have an effect though if it's illegal to breed without a licence and illegal to own a unlicenced dog/cat. I'm all for it.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

In Sweden everyone who ownes more than 9 adult cats (older than 12 months) or breed more than 2 litters a year by law needs a licence. I think that's resonable.

Unfortunately the costs depends on where you live and in some parts you have to pay almost £250 a year in order to get the licence!  In some areas the licence doesn't cost anything at all... not exactly fair.


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## Sungold-Bengals (Mar 10, 2008)

Cerridwen said:


> In Sweden everyone who ownes more than 9 adult cats (older than 12 months) or breed more than 2 litters a year by law needs a licence. I think that's resonable.
> 
> Unfortunately the costs depends on where you live and in some parts you have to pay almost £250 a year in order to get the licence!  In some areas the licence doesn't cost anything at all... not exactly fair.


This is a good idea - but the pricing needs to be sorted out in a fairer way!


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## paws (Jun 16, 2008)

yes I think this would be a good idea


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2008)

I think it would be a brill idea


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

I am not a breeder but I think its a good idea, I would think prospective owners would certainly look up the licensed breeder.

I think it will reduce the number of back yard breeders including puppy farms.

My only concern is for the British moggies. They are brilliant little companions. No-one can write a profile on them ie suitable for xyz type person or not suitable for xyz. The little bundle you get is a journey into the unknown. 

Would moggy breeders be exempt from having to have a licence? If so, this would open up a flood gate for less reputable breeders.

What happens to an unlicensed breeder and more importantly what happens to the kittens. We have read it on this forum where cats and dogs become pregnant when it was the intention of the owner to have their pet spayed once it reached maturity.

In principle I am in favour of a breeders licence and a pet owners licence too.

Sue


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## carol (Nov 2, 2007)

there is already a licence, run but local councils for these people who have a curtain amount of pups, but it still dont stop them breeding bad dogs.


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## Rraa (Apr 15, 2008)

I agree with the principle and would be happy to hold a licence if my 2 queens had even one litter each per year - I would simply factor in the extra expenses and ask my kitten families to pay slightly more per kitten. 

I would also not mind having to have my home inspected to satisfy the licencing authorities and my kitten families, that the kittens are well bred and cared for and good homes are always found for them. This is something extra to boast about on the website and the extra care taken is something that may persuade the more discerning, caring kitten families. 

As has been said, there are always exceptions.


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## felineadorer (Jun 12, 2008)

I think it's a great idea.


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## xxSaffronxx (Apr 2, 2008)

Rraa said:


> I agree with the principle and would be happy to hold a licence if my 2 queens had even one litter each per year - I would simply factor in the extra expenses and ask my kitten families to pay slightly more per kitten.
> 
> I would also not mind having to have my home inspected to satisfy the licencing authorities and my kitten families, that the kittens are well bred and cared for and good homes are always found for them. This is something extra to boast about on the website and the extra care taken is something that may persuade the more discerning, caring kitten families.
> 
> As has been said, there are always exceptions.


Yes good point Raa - if the licence causes extra overheads then maybe we can inflate our revenue to compensate.
That way the prospective kitten owner will know they are getting a good quality kitten from a licenced breeder.

And good point about letting people inspect your house - thats the way it should be. If any breeder is not open to this then they are obviously doing something wrong and have something to hide.

Although this wont weed out all BYBs as there will always be a market for people not wanting to pay a lot of money for their pets, it will certainly reduce the number of BYBs in my eyes.


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## sarah.so (Aug 16, 2008)

im pretty new to all of this - & work voluntary for rescues so not sure what it costs to breed etc. or to be honest anything to do with breeding.

do breeders actually have to pay anything to breed?

i noticed that there were no health checks in order to breed your dog - this i found unbelievable!!!

i thought that dogs who were bred from would have to be health checked & breeders did have to be licenced?

i think that they should be & this may be stop all the dogs that end up in rescue.

do breeders home check to check the suitability of the new home?

do they take the dogs back if things dont work out?

sorry loads of questions - but i really dont know anything about it - if some one could enlighten me!


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## xxSaffronxx (Apr 2, 2008)

sarah.so said:


> im pretty new to all of this - & work voluntary for rescues so not sure what it costs to breed etc. or to be honest anything to do with breeding.
> 
> do breeders actually have to pay anything to breed?
> 
> ...


Hi Hun

I can only comment on cat breeding, but here goes.............

Breeders have to pay a premium for their queens firstly, and depending on the breed this can be anything from £400 - £2000 

Other costs include stud fees (a few hundred pounds - again dependant on breed), kittens vaccinations, kittens microchipping, subscriptions to breed clubs, medical supplies for your birthing box, cleaning equipment for spraying queens. And so the list goes on..................
And of course your usual things like cat litter, food, treats etc.
But also if you would like all your kittens to have your chosen prefix on their pedigree name, this is also £60 to register.

Good breeders investigate and check to make sure that the new homes for the kittens are suitable - but as we all sadly know, this does not always happen!!

Personally I would take back a kitten if it didnt work out and we would arrange something in relation to costs, but they wouldnt be getting a full refund for the kitten.

Hope that answers some questions


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## sarah.so (Aug 16, 2008)

Hi

thanks for replying!

if they were not looking after the kitten i would take it back & no refund!

working so much with rescue & what i see it is easy for me to condemn the breeder - but i am honest enough to say that i dont know the details behind breeding - so most of the time keep my mouth shut! obviously 99% of the time we just here the bad.

i am glad that there are responsible breeders out there - and do genuinely care about there pups/kittens!

i have a girl on foster at the moment that was rescued from a puppy farm, i cried when she came to me, she was covered in fleas & ticks & riddled with worms! and so unsure of the world around her she cowered when petted, thankfully now spayed she is coming on a treat! they estimate she had had a litter per season. 

i also know a breeder that has reclaimed 2 of his dogs that were not being looked after & he subsequently rehomed them through our rescue. so i do know there are some good uns out there!!!

thanks for taking the time to reply!

xx


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## emmar (Aug 1, 2008)

no ...you pay enough to register kittens , you have to pay for your prefix etc ...


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Surely any form of country wide licencing system could only ensure that the cats were being kept in appropriate conditions? Who would be responsible for policing the system? How would they ascertain that your cats were of suitable genetic breeding health and of good type producing kittens of the same?

Surely any sort of system like this, only impacts the good responsible breeders because they are the only ones that would adhere to it. How would they stop bybs breeding and selling kittens, I think it would be impossible to police. Especially in this day and age, it is hard enough to sell a responsibly brought up kitten and recoup your costs for doing so, add more onto the cost of a kitten and aren't you pushing people to those bybs and their bargain kittens.

Maybe the registries GCCF, TICA, FIFE should start adding more rules for those with registered prefixes with them ie 

a maximum inbreeding coefficient that is acceptable
 some kind of individual check on breeders that produce vast numbers of kittens in a year
 a registry of currently active "entire" cats kept by each breeder and checks on those that have alot - or a limit on the number you can keep at anyone time
 tightening up of the number of litters one queen can have in an annual/bi annual basis making it a rule rather than a guideline
 some form of check to ensure that anything that can be tested for is done and the results added to the cats record held by the registry and I am thinking of things like tests for PKD etc

No system would be fool proof and I have no doubt that if people wanted to find a way round anything then they would.


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## xxSaffronxx (Apr 2, 2008)

sarah.so said:


> if they were not looking after the kitten i would take it back & no refund!


Very true - me too - but i was basing your question on the fact that maybe the family had an allergy or the cat didnt fit in well with the others in the household etc etc. All of which is beyond anyones control.

Not looking after it property IS within their control and certainly would not get a refund!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

I say yes 
If i would be in charge then every pet owner would need a licence


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## Janee (May 4, 2008)

Saikou said:


> Surely any form of country wide licencing system could only ensure that the cats were being kept in appropriate conditions? Who would be responsible for policing the system? How would they ascertain that your cats were of suitable genetic breeding health and of good type producing kittens of the same?
> 
> Surely any sort of system like this, only impacts the good responsible breeders because they are the only ones that would adhere to it. How would they stop bybs breeding and selling kittens, I think it would be impossible to police. Especially in this day and age, it is hard enough to sell a responsibly brought up kitten and recoup your costs for doing so, add more onto the cost of a kitten and aren't you pushing people to those bybs and their bargain kittens.
> 
> ...


As a ped pet owner, I fully endorse this.

However, the registration bodies (GCCF/TICA/FIFE???) must also educate the public. They should NOT rely on cat breed clubs to do this.

For each breed, the governing bodies should list potential health problems and the relevant tests that breeders should provide proof of that the parents/kittens are clear. They should also provide pointers that potential buyers of pets should look out for including FAQ.

Why I say not the breed clubs is that the governing bodies should be impartial. They should monitor and establish breed standards for the good of the breed, not for fashion and not what breeders fees are 'selling' points.

I was shocked by the BBC programme.

What shocked me the most was that a breeder could breed from a dog that was proven to have a hereditary condition which not only caused pain but was a killer. Not only that, but the KC endorsed the championship status of that dog.


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## Elmstar (Apr 7, 2008)

In theory it's a good idea but in reality it'd just be yet another way for the authorities to get money out of you for doing very little.

I'd welcome it if it meant there was a crackdown on people breeding without a licence but we all know that wouldn't happen.

Fiona


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## Angeli (Jun 2, 2008)

It would improve things but it wouldn't stop the BYB.
I think making health checks compulsory for registered breeders should be seriously considered as the first step. If you dont or wont have your breeding cats tested then none of the offspring should be registered. 

Certain breeds of pedigree cats have inherited diseases that are well known, such as PKD in the Persian breed which includes any other breed outcrossed with a Persian.
Many of us responsible Persian breeders have tested for this for some years now and some breeders that had cats that tested positive had virtually their whole breeding stock wiped out and had to start from scratch. Unfortunately there are still some out there that bury their head in the sand and will not test.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

You'd think if there was a test for a hereditary problem that breeders would jump at the chance to clear their cats. I can see in this more litigious world breeders being potentially sued for selling an untested kitten advertised as "healthy" that later down the line develops something that could have been tested for. 

There are a few nasties in the siamese/ori world, but unfortunately no test to identify the carriers. Even cats that have produced a certain problem, and not just once but several times are still out there active.


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## Angeli (Jun 2, 2008)

Saikou said:


> You'd think if there was a test for a hereditary problem that breeders would jump at the chance to clear their cats. I can see in this more litigious world breeders being potentially sued for selling an untested kitten advertised as "healthy" that later down the line develops something that could have been tested for.
> 
> There are a few nasties in the siamese/ori world, but unfortunately no test to identify the carriers. Even cats that have produced a certain problem, and not just once but several times are still out there active.


Some of these people have been breeding and showing for years and are well established no doubt. That's what I found in my breed.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Most yes, and they persuade others that its fine, or x or y case was a one off. 

It is mainly breeders that breed for show, its that quick win mating that has the chance of producing that show stopper, the pull is too great. You can get to the same point doing a different mating or two, but it takes longer. Plus, and I know this is not nice, but for your avid show neuter exhibitor they make the ideal purchase - do fabulously well on the show bench, sadly don't live passed 3 or 4, making room for your next show neuter from the same breeder. People see them doing really well on the show bench and so it continues.


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## Janee (May 4, 2008)

Saikou said:


> You'd think if there was a test for a hereditary problem that breeders would jump at the chance to clear their cats. I can see in this more litigious world breeders being potentially sued for selling an untested kitten advertised as "healthy" that later down the line develops something that could have been tested for.
> 
> There are a few nasties in the siamese/ori world, but unfortunately no test to identify the carriers. Even cats that have produced a certain problem, and not just once but several times are still out there active.


Does anybody know if lawsuits are brought in USA?

I know a few members are American


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## Janee (May 4, 2008)

The governing bodies should spend money on education of the buying public. 

If they did this, advocating the advantages of buying tested, genetically sound pedigree kittens as well as explaining the disadvantages of going to an unregistered breeder, then hopefully this would get through.

The governing bodies could also link in with insurance companies who would accept certificates of health/genetics testing and give a discount (am I being too simplistic here?)

Governing bodies should be impartial. Not sure if they are. If they were truly impartial they could then supervise/audit breed clubs.

Governing bodies should also open a pedigree database so that anybody can check breeding lines. Here the co-efficients come in for inbreeding etc


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## Angeli (Jun 2, 2008)

It wouldn't be that hard for the governing bodies to implement compulsory testing of breeding cats either, they already insist on an entirety certificate for a stud so it would be similar to that.


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