# Kitten enquiry are these people genuine.



## kelzcats (Aug 1, 2011)

I had a Lithuania couple come and visit my kittens as a possible new family. They were very nice very interested in the kittens and asked questions i would expect a new family to ask. Before they visited i asked them to tell me about themselves family life, working etc as i need to know where my kittens could possible be going.

Anyway to the point i have a address for them but it's the email address that is giving me some concern it is mail.ru which i believe to be Russian should i be concerned i didn't get anything bad from this couple they were very nice but something is making suspicious.


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## bogdog (Jan 1, 2014)

I wouldn't worry about an email address with non UK extension. I have an address with a foreign extension because, when I was looking for email providers they popped up first, were free and easy to set up. I am a British citizen, residing in Britain. I now have other email addresses. 

So I would concentrate on other aspects on what would make these people suitable for your kittens. Good luck.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

I wouldn't worry too much about the email extension as it is probably the address they used before they moved to uk.
What would concern me more is whether they are planning to stay in UK long term....and what they would do with the cat if/when they decide to return to Lithuania. I would also want to know whether they have permission from a landlord to keep a cat. Remember that if they are renting then any future landlord may be an issue.
I would also want to check with them what their views are on neutering......Please don't think I am making sweeping generalisations but I do hear from a lot of people from eastern Europe that neutering is not seen as essential or even desirable at all.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

Couldnt agree with PP more - on the several occasions I have explained to people of Eastern European origin that my kittens go neutered not a single one has been interested anymore and one actually told me I was evil. I agree with PP re sweeping generalisations but I would be very wary - if you dont early neuter you could always pretend you do - I did that with a couple I was fairly sure were looking to breed from my BSH kitten before I found a vet who ealry neutered, didnt see them for dust


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

wicket said:


> Couldnt agree with PP more - on the several occasions I have explained to people of Eastern European origin that my kittens go neutered not a single one has been interested anymore and one actually told me I was evil. I agree with PP re sweeping generalisations but I would be very wary - if you dont early neuter you could always pretend you do - I did that with a couple I was fairly sure were looking to breed from my BSH kitten before I found a vet who ealry neutered, didnt see them for dust


I'm not convinced that not wanting a kitten early neutered necessarily means that people want to breed from it, they may have valid concerns about the future health of "their" kitten. I breed Siamese, my vet doesn't early neuter as he (in fact the whole practice) prefer them to be of reasonable size before going under anaesthetic for anything non-emergency. This doesn't make them poor vets, they are one of only 150 vet hospital practices in the whole country, they will do operations even on Russian hamsters using a microscope if necessary, but they take the view that they don't operate before a certain weight unless lifesaving or to prevent clear and present suffering. I also have reservations about early neutering. We've gone to and fro on this subject a few times with other breeders, not saying I'm right and they're wrong, or vice versa, but we will have to agree to differ. However, if even breeders and vets can't have "one policy fits all" on early neutering, think how much harder it is for a person who may not know that much about breeding, but just wants to buy a healthy kitten. Assuming everyone who avoids those breeders who do early neuter is a potential back yard breeder is unfair - it could be that they aren't seen for dust as they have struck that breeder of their list as being, in their eyes, more interested in protecting their line than individual kitten health. That may be unfair on the breeder, just as many breeders judge potential owners unfairly.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

My kittens therefore I reserve the right to be unfair in your opinion - I explain why I early neuter and I've yet to have someone give me valid reasons not to do it - if you have never experienced how quickly early neutered kittens recover compared to those done at six months you aren't really in a position to comment - I had reservations too but haven't looked back since my first early neutering experience, and I know for sure mine won't be in the hands of bybs


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

wicket said:


> My kittens therefore I reserve the right to be unfair in your opinion - I explain why I early neuter and I've yet to have someone give me valid reasons not to do it - if you have never experienced how quickly early neutered kittens recover compared to those done at six months you aren't really in a position to comment - I had reservations too but haven't looked back since my first early neutering experience, and I know for sure mine won't be in the hands of bybs


I appreciate your reasoning, just saying not even all vets agree, so can't expect potential owners to always have the same ideas as one of possibly many breeders they are researching for their perfect kitten.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Catharinem said:


> I appreciate your reasoning, just saying not even all vets agree, so can't expect potential owners to always have the same ideas as one of possibly many breeders they are researching for their perfect kitten.


Well that's fine - if they only want a pet then why should they worry about early neutering? Most people have never researched the option..... but there are a huge many who still believe that having a litter is somehow beneficial to the queen. And don't get me started on those who feel that having a male castrated is somehow akin to castrating a male human being.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

MerlinsMum said:


> Well that's fine - if they only want a pet then why should they worry about early neutering? Most people have never researched the option..... but there are a huge many who still believe that having a litter is somehow beneficial to the queen. And don't get me started on those who feel that having a male castrated is somehow akin to castrating a male human being.


I know we're going round in circles here, so I'll try a different angle to explain what I mean. Suppose someone was researching buying a kitten, and went to my vet to ask about their views on early neutering and were advised it was a bad idea (on a size rather than absolute age basis). They would have heard good things about my vet, or used them themselves for their other animals. They might avoid a breeder who had a policy which they had received vet advise against, on the grounds that they knew and trusted their vet, and, all other things being equal, would choose a breeder who had similar views to the vet whose opinion they respected. Just a thought why some potential owners may be rejecting that breeder's judgement rather than being foiled in becoming a byb and trying again elsewhere. Just because they choose another breeder doesn't necessarily mean they are planning on breeding themselves.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

The weight argument is a very old fashioned view, my breed is small my vet will neuter down to 900gr -as you said yourself your vet will do microscopic surgery on mum smaller hamsters I don't understand why he is anti early neutering based on weight? - I understand what you are saying but I bet for every one person who doesn't want a kitten as they have researched early neutering and aren't comfortable with it there are 10 more with the intention of back yard breeding


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Only one of the people I've sold kittens to has asked if EN is OK, another woman looked it up on the Internet and concluded it was fine so long as the vet is skilled in the procedure. The rest have either not commented or been delighted the kitten is already neutered. I have had a couple of calls from people who have put the phone down on finding the girl kitten they want will already be neutered. I'm sure they got a kitten from somewhere, but I don't want her to be one of my kittens.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

wicket said:


> The weight argument is a very old fashioned view, my breed is small my vet will neuter down to 900gr -as you said yourself your vet will do microscopic surgery on mum smaller hamsters I don't understand why he is anti early neutering based on weight? - I understand what you are saying but I bet for every one person who doesn't want a kitten as they have researched early neutering and aren't comfortable with it there are 10 more with the intention of back yard breeding


 I think it's just risk based, hamster surgery was life saving, neutering can wait until bigger. I've a lot of respect for his (their) advice, as soon as they are happy to do it as routine (different anaesthetics for instance) I'll do it myself - not to stop backyard breeding ( I hope I can spot those when, or before, they get through my door), but so it's one less thing for the new owner to worry about.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

That's why I would never breed, any species. I would not be able to part with any, except maybe to a very close and trusted friend or family member, so I would very quickly be overrun!


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## smoking guns (Feb 24, 2015)

Catharinem said:


> I think it's just risk based, hamster surgery was life saving, neutering can wait until bigger. I've a lot of respect for his (their) advice, as soon as they are happy to do it as routine (different anaesthetics for instance) I'll do it myself - not to stop backyard breeding ( I hope I can spot those when, or before, they get through my door), but so it's one less thing for the new owner to worry about.


I think spotting BYBs are easier said than done. Not all BYBs are in-your-face "I want to make a quick buck from my cat" types; I'm sure there will be plenty of misguided people who just think "wow my cat is great, I'd love to spread the joy so I'm going to breed her", or "my children should witness the miracle of life", as well as the aforementioned "she deserves to be a mum once". And none of those reasons are good enough to breed willy nilly. If I was a breeder (and I may still become one in the future, it's a consideration I've discussed with Gunter's breeder), I would make sure there is no chance anyone like the ones I have mentioned would get their hands on one of my kittens to contribute to overpopulation of unwanted cats and ones with no health checks.

Just to clarify though, I do see what your argument is, but I personally don't think it is enough to not early neuter.


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## Sherylina (Sep 17, 2012)

Early neutering is still a fairly recent option so is taking a while to filter down to everyone but there is no extra risk with early neutering!! In actual fact it is safer as it is less vascular, far less likely to bleed during surgery. They literally snip and there is barely any bleeding at all. Anaesthetic - well yes if it's not monitored and just pumped into them willy nilly then one could argue that it is a higher risk due to their weight but with someone who knows what they are doing and are monitoring the anaesthetic (which a nurse should do throughout any surgery) then there is no higher risk than with any other adult cat.

There is a little higher risk of keeping them warm, they lose body heat much quicker as kittens but again vets will be expecting this and will be ready to keep them warm during the surgery and neutering is a quick operation that they do several times each shift so again the risk is negated really.

Cat vets now agree that the 6 month rule is silly and unreasonable but unfortunately as i said hasn't filtered down to everyone yet and it's very difficult to change a vets opinion when they have been taught to neuter at 6 months at the time they did their degree and this is something they have been doing for many years. The research now agrees that there isn't any problems that come from early neutering and there are several papers that have done long term studies to support this.

I am involved with a cat rescue in Derby and we have had literally hundreds and hundreds of kittens early neutered and haven't lost a single one. Yes 9 weeks is very early to neuter a kitten which is going to be kept indoors - but it is worth the security that they are never going to have any "accidents" or get lost before neutering, etc and they really do recover very well.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

In all the years I was breeding (pre early neutering days,) I am fairly certain from following my kittens in their first year of life that none were bred without my permission. That would not stop me early neutering now if I were still breeding. There are other consequences almost more serious than the occasional back yard breeder. For example, a couple who had a boy of mine didn't get round to neutering him and that, combined with their refusal to accept guidance on the required number of clean litter trays for three cats etc, meant he turned into a filthy little boy. They eventually neutered him at 8 months but I had to collect him.

He was not rehomeable and, much as I loved him, he ruined my house and lived to be eighteen and a half!

So many cats in rescue are there because of spraying issues and who knows how many never reach that safety and are passed from one home to another all their lives or even euthanased. So much unhappiness to cats and humans and avoidable with early neutering. I would consider the very slight risk acceptable especially since there is probably no study to compare it with the risk of 'normal' age neutering in a cat likely to suffer adverse reactions to the procedure.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Sherylina said:


> Early neutering is still a fairly recent option
> <snip>


It is in the UK but it's been done in some other countries for over 20 years.


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## Squeaks (Oct 16, 2014)

There's also the camp "I'll get the cat neutered whenever I get around to it" that seems fairly commonplace (in my experience). Not intending to be BYB, but not really seeing the urgency in getting the cat neutered by X time and then the inevitable happens.


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## Erenya (Jul 22, 2014)

I'd have been over the moon if my two had already been done. It's a fairly chunky expense for two cats and I wouldn't have been pacing the house going mad with stress/worry while they were at the vets...

I am part of a face book group that works to reunite lost pets and recently one of them expressed outrage when one of the women stated she'd got her boy done at 4 months.... I had to put her straight of course


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> It is in the UK but it's been done in some other countries for over 20 years.


You beat me to it  Many breeders here have been EN for over a decade, it's the norm now for kittens to be done at around 10-12 weeks. Smaller breeds, Singapuras for example simply stay with their breeder until 15-16 weeks when they're heavy enough for surgery.


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## Sherylina (Sep 17, 2012)

Can only speak for the UK!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_Suppose someone was researching buying a kitten, and went to my vet to ask about their views on early neutering and were advised it was a bad idea (on a size rather than absolute age basis_
So why would the buyer have any issue if all the risks were done and dusted? They would be getting a healthy, vet checked, neutered kitten and wouldn't be taking on the risks associated with anaesthetic which they'd have to bear themselves at some point if the kitten hadn't already been neutered. Makes no sense at all to refuse a neutered kitten or cat if their intentions are honourable.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

havoc said:


> _Suppose someone was researching buying a kitten, and went to my vet to ask about their views on early neutering and were advised it was a bad idea (on a size rather than absolute age basis_
> So why would the buyer have any issue if all the risks were done and dusted? They would be getting a healthy, vet checked, neutered kitten and wouldn't be taking on the risks associated with anaesthetic which they'd have to bear themselves at some point if the kitten hadn't already been neutered. Makes no sense at all to refuse a neutered kitten or cat if their intentions are honourable.


We're going round in circles again. Just suggesting that buyers may not use a breeder they perceived as taking unnecessary risks. The breeder may not see it as risky, their vet may not see it as risky, but buyer might. Apart from preventing backyard breeding, there is increased risk for no increased gain. Waiting for a bigger weight (not age) makes sense unless kitten in danger. Opinion from some vets as well as some owners and breeders. Sure some breeders early neuter with best of intentions, but not everyone will agree with their policy. I loved the comment about info not yet "filtering down" to some vets, and the implications of not yet catching on. My vet at forefront, and with 24 hour vet hospital status, I read some of the threads about people's vets and just weep. Anyway, well off thread, don't be suspicious of buyers just because questioned EN, see what else you think of them.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_Apart from preventing backyard breeding, there is increased risk for no increased gain._
What increased risk for the buyer? It's a done deal by the time the buyer takes the kitten and the perceived risks have been borne by the breeder. Are you suggesting neutering creates ongoing health problems, unseen and unknown for some extended period? By that logic nobody should take any cat or kitten from a rescue unless it can be shown that the animal wasn't neutered until the age your vet feels it's 'right'.


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## The Wild Bunch (Jul 16, 2014)

As an owner of a brand new baby who was neutered at 11 weeks (2 weeks and one day ago) I was thrilled to bits that it was something that I didn't have to worry about and Ernie bounced right back with no worrying effects


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Catharinem said:


> Apart from preventing backyard breeding, there is increased risk for no increased gain.


Umm where??? The risk will still be there when the kitten is 6 months old, there is ALWAYS a risk.

I think that while some people may express surprise at the thought of EN, its mainly because they've never heard of it. A genuine pet buyer will quickly accept the fact that the kitten will be neutered by the time they take the kitten. They will hopefully have nothing to worry about for a year until the boosters are due, they can just get on an enjoy their new family member.

In the UK, tradition dies hard. The '_they must have one litter before being neutered_' concept is STILL considered normal by many of the public and some vets are still reluctant to change from the old 6 month old standpoint. My own vets won't do them before 16 weeks, so I having to go to a different practice to get my kittens EN. It will change, particularly is the rescue organisations really start pushing EN, but it will just take a bit of time.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Tigermoon said:


> Umm where??? The risk will still be there when the kitten is 6 months old, there is ALWAYS a risk.
> 
> I think that while some people may express surprise at the thought of EN, its mainly because they've never heard of it. A genuine pet buyer will quickly accept the fact that the kitten will be neutered by the time they take the kitten. They will hopefully have nothing to worry about for a year until the boosters are due, they can just get on an enjoy their new family member.
> 
> In the UK, tradition dies hard. The '_they must have one litter before being neutered_' concept is STILL considered normal by many of the public and some vets are still reluctant to change from the old 6 month old standpoint. My own vets won't do them before 16 weeks, so I having to go to a different practice to get my kittens EN. It will change, particularly is the rescue organisations really start pushing EN, but it will just take a bit of time.


Or to put in another way, you as a breeder go against your own vet's advice.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

And Tigermoon stands by another vets advice. Vets aren't infallible.

I have early neutered when I bred. And early neutered when kitten came to me unfettered at 13 weeks. I wouldn't do it any other way. The US, NZ and Aus can't have been wrong all these years.

If someone wouldn't take one of my kittens because I early neutered that's their prerogative - it's also mine to not sell to them. They can find someone else to buy from. For me that's been my one immovable issue. "You don't like early neutering? That's fine. But swearing at me won't make me change my mind; goodbye" - a conversation once had. All my kitten buyers have been relieved to have the kittens ready neutered. I take all the risks, and they get a healthy, neutered, vaccinated, happy kitten. Job done!


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

In answer to the OPs question - go with your gut feeling! If you think they are dodgy don't sell to them.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Just saying, if even vets won't agree, practice to practice, and her own vet won't do it for her even (presumably) having mutual respect, it's obviously not that simple. Not every vet early neuters, some vets advise against. You don't know buyers haven't discussed with their own vet and come to the conclusion it is an irresponsible thing for a breeder to do, making them ( in their opinion) a breeder to avoid. Not saying Tigermoon and others are bad breeders, sure they are doing what they feel right. But don't tar all customers who avoid them once learning EN policies as Bybs, may be genuine disagreement, either with policy or possibly with attitude ( if my vet won't do it I'll find one who will). I certainly won't be telling my vet to change their policy based on a pet forum discussion, neither change my vet to one where the customer is always right (even when they're wrong).


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_Not every vet early neuters, some vets advise against. You don't know buyers haven't discussed with their own vet and come to the conclusion it is an irresponsible thing for a breeder to do_,
This is an age old story though and it isn't so much that vets 'advise' against it because they won't but because they can't. If they don't have the experience of seeing one to do one to teach one then they have a natural caution based in their own ability rather than any science. That's absolutely fair - just wish they'd be honest about the reasons for their reluctance.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Catharinem said:


> Or to put in another way, you as a breeder go against your own vet's advice.


Err no .... its not their advice to not neuter before that age, it's just the age they will do it from. They have at no time advised me on the merits or not, of neutering at different ages.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

havoc said:


> _Not every vet early neuters, some vets advise against. You don't know buyers haven't discussed with their own vet and come to the conclusion it is an irresponsible thing for a breeder to do_,
> This is an age old story though and it isn't so much that vets 'advise' against it because they won't but because they can't. If they don't have the experience of seeing one to do one to teach one then they have a natural caution based in their own ability rather than any science. That's absolutely fair - just wish they'd be honest about the reasons for their reluctance.


I disagree, I have faith in my vet's ability to tell me the truth and hold an open, honest discussion, for the benefit of my babies and their patients. If I didn't trust them I wouldn't use them. I've accepted that we have different views, as do our vets. Perhaps you could offer the same, rather than your attitude of being right, and if I or my vet disagree we are behind the times, or worse, they are less than honest.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Tigermoon said:


> Err no .... its not their advice to not neuter before that age, it's just the age they will do it from. They have at no time advised me on the merits or not, of neutering at different ages.


Fair point. However, the fact remains, your regular vet doesn't do what you want them to do so you find one who will. I prefer to use one practice I trust, rather than flip loyalties depending who will do what I want.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Catharinem said:


> I prefer to use one practice I trust, rather than flip loyalties depending who will do what I want.


My loyalty is with my animals and I do what is best by them. If you wish to follow the advice of just one vet, that is of course entirely up to you, however most of us choose to look at the bigger picture, and that often means going to more than just one shop.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Tigermoon said:


> My loyalty is with my animals and I do what is best by them. If you wish to follow the advice of just one vet, that is of course entirely up to you, however most of us choose to look at the bigger picture, and that often means going to more than just one shop.


One practice, not one vet. Presumably there is not one single vet in your first practice willing to do as you request? If you have a very good practice, as I am lucky enough to have, I'd listen to their advice rather than shopping around until I find one who does what I want. Why can't you agree to differ, I'm sure we both do what we believe best for our babies.


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## Sherylina (Sep 17, 2012)

I know the point you are trying to make Catharinem. Yes, you are right. Not everyone who agrees with EN is a bad person and is automatically going to use the kitten for BYB.

You clearly didnt like my comment about it not "filtering" down to your vet yet. Perhaps I shouldn't have used that wording. I'm not saying that your vet is a bad vet, I'm not saying that he doesn't know what he is doing either. What I am saying is that someone who has been taught during his degree (veterinary university courses these days in the UK now teach that early neutering is a good thing) and has been neutering at 6 months for several years then it is very hard to change their opinion on this as this is what they have always done working alongside like minded individuals.

I listed exactly why there was no real extra risks with early neutering and I will be more than happy to provide the links to the long term studies I mentioned that were carried out to support this.


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## Sherylina (Sep 17, 2012)

Catharinem said:


> One practice, not one vet. Presumably there is not one single vet in your first practice willing to do as you request? If you have a very good practice, as I am lucky enough to have, I'd listen to their advice rather than shopping around until I find one who does what I want. Why can't you agree to differ, I'm sure we both do what we believe best for our babies.


Lots of practices will have a blanket policy that all vets must follow.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

There are very few entirely risk-free actions in this complicated world but most sensible people weigh up the risks involved in a particular course of action and compare them to the risks involved in not taking that action.

In the past many of us will have experienced at least some of the adverse consequences of kittens not being neutered as agreed, whether it concerns BYBs, or careless people who let their cats mate when still kittens, or even cats who develop undesirable habits because their owners 'never got round' to neutering them soon enough and subsequently have an insecure or even shorter than otherwise life.

I am not a scientist but all the papers I have read about early neutering suggest the procedure is, in fact, less risk at a young age than when carried out later. Perhaps I am fortunate that none of the 26 cats and kittens I have neutered over the years have ever had a real problem but it leads me to the conclusion that, if EN is *less *risk, it is obviously the sensible course to take. Less risk in the procedure as well as less risk of the adverse consequences attending cats not neutered by their new owners.

I am always keen to extend my knowledge so I would be very interested in reading any papers which suggest early neutering is not *relatively* safe compared to the other options.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I stick with one GP and I know a fair few general surgeons. Doesn't mean I wouldn't 'flip loyalty' to someone with the appropriate skills and experience for particular procedures.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_ I am always keen to extend my knowledge so I would be very interested in reading any papers which suggest early neutering is not *relatively* safe compared to the other options._
Well about the most dangerous thing you can put a cat through is a pregnancy. Pretty strange that these buyers with a moral objection to breeders who early neuter don't extend the same thought to the far greater risks involved in producing the kitten they want to buy.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

Catharinem said:


> Fair point. However, the fact remains, your regular vet doesn't do what you want them to do so you find one who will. I prefer to use one practice I trust, rather than flip loyalties depending who will do what I want.


I used a vet and a practice I trusted until an error in his judgement cost me a cat (he admitted he had made a mistake - no one is infalilble) - I dont always go with my vets advice, I do my own research and my vet respects this - loyalty to one vet / practice to me is totally misguided, no one can be an expert on everything - yours is obviously an expert in microscopic hamster surgery lol


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I've recently started shifting over to another practice as it eventually dawned on me that the reason I don't still have the same love for my old place is because there isn't a single vet still in the small animal section as was there when I moved to them. The whole character of the place has changed and not for the better.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Havoc, if you press the Reply button on the bottom right of the post you're wanting to quote it'll put the tags in for you so you don't need to copy and paste.

I love my vets and am lucky in that they are a breeding specialist clinic, but I still find other breeders are an invaluable resource, and the vets are happy to listen to us as well, breeders can have a lot of knowledge and hands on experience that vets don't. I'd still go elsewhere if I needed to, whatever is best for my pets and the situation.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Sherylina said:


> I know the point you are trying to make Catharinem. Yes, you are right. Not everyone who agrees with EN is a bad person and is automatically going to use the kitten for BYB


Thanks for getting the point I was trying to make. The fact that with the same information, different conclusions can be reached. Havoc, Oriental Slave, Spotty Cats and other advocates of early neutering, we'll have to agree to disagree - or if you prefer, I can agree to disagree and you can think I'm wrong. I'm delighted to have a brilliant vet practice, and if they advise against ( not just not do) neutering below a certain weight, I won't be taking my babies elsewhere to get the same job done but a few weeks earlier. The original thread suggested there may be something "dodgy" about someone not wanting a kitten early neutered ( or not wanting to use a breeder who early neutered), I'm saying not necessarily, there are lots of other factors to consider.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Catharinem said:


> Thanks for getting the point I was trying to make. The fact that with the same information, different conclusions can be reached. Havoc, Oriental Slave, Spotty Cats and other advocates of early neutering, we'll have to agree to disagree - or if you prefer, I can agree to disagree and you can think I'm wrong. I'm delighted to have a brilliant vet practice, and if they advise against ( not just not do) neutering below a certain weight, I won't be taking my babies elsewhere to get the same job done but a few weeks earlier. The original thread suggested there may be something "dodgy" about someone not wanting a kitten early neutered ( or not wanting to use a breeder who early neutered), I'm saying not necessarily, there are lots of other factors to consider.


You still have not cited the research you believe successfully contradicts the existing available advice from all the influential cat groups and also Langford. It is perfectly acceptable to disagree if you are prepared to quote your sources but there will never be consensus on anything if some people simply continue to express their beliefs as if they were proven fact. Obviously you should act as you think is best for your own cats but to try to influence others without providing evidence simply prolongs the confusion which may (or may not) have been the cause of the problem with the original Lithuanian couple.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

QOTN said:


> You still have not cited the research you believe successfully contradicts the existing available advice from all the influential cat groups and also Langford. It is perfectly acceptable to disagree if you are prepared to quote your sources but there will never be consensus on anything if some people simply continue to express their beliefs as if they were proven fact. Obviously you should act as you think is best for your own cats but to try to influence others without providing evidence simply prolongs the confusion which may (or may not) have been the cause of the problem with the original Lithuanian couple.


I beleive in this country it is "acceptable" to disagree with or without quoting specific research papers! I've also said I'm happy not to have a consensus on this, I know I won't change your minds, but am open to neutering at lower weight if and when my vet considers the risk/benefit balance has changed. However, I won't be changing to a less cautious vet for the sake of a few weeks growth. The original post didn't actually refer to EN anyway, but a non UK email extention, EN was thrown into the mix later on. My posts saying EN not an issue in assessing a buyer shouldn't be confusing, it's reassuring it's not an indicator of bad intent. If the OP does EN then that's her policy, full stop, if not, it's not an issue. It's other breeders confusing the issue by suggesting she pretend to have a policy even if she doesn't! Now a breeder being dishonest would definitely set a buyer's alarm bells ringing.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Catharinem said:


> I beleive in this country it is "acceptable" to disagree with or without quoting specific research papers!
> <snip>
> It's other breeders confusing the issue by suggesting she pretend to have a policy even if she doesn't! Now a breeder being dishonest would definitely set a buyer's alarm bells ringing.


If it was an opinion about something which is purely opinion (best film for example) then of course no-one would ask you to quote papers.

However this is a scientific subject with a reasonable amount of research and to suggest you have found contrary research and not reference it so we can all see and consider it is unreasonable.

You also say "_The original thread suggested there may be something "dodgy" about someone not wanting a kitten early neutered_". I have had the experience of the phone being put down on me a couple of times by apparently fine-sounding people after a girl. My own view is that they were looking to breed and weren't wanting to mention that fact. If they wanted a pet they had every intention of neutering why did they react so abruptly? I'd be quite happy to discuss it, and to provide the evidence that in the right hands it's a very safe procedure and let them have another think. One buyer researched it herself and concluded it was safe, *in the right hands*.

If anyone said she should pretend to have an EN policy I missed I. One just can't do that. I advertise my kittens as already neutered, if I sold one unneutered the purchaser would (I hope) run for the hills - what else have I not done that I said I would?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

It's not dishonest to say you are considering neutering this litter before they leave and it can result in a pretty good indication of intent. I'm fairly sure any vet in this or any other country would cite far greater risks from a pregnancy. Surely if health, welfare and perceived risks were their true concerns they'd have an objection to a breeder deliberately putting a cat through the risks of pregnancy in the first place. I still therefore can't understand why any buyer would have an objection, even supposedly veterinary led, to buying a neutered kitten. Does your vet tell people not to buy neutered kittens because the risks associated with the procedure are somehow transferred to the buyer?


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

It was me who said the op could say she is thinking of EN even if she doesn't - before I EN I used this approach once on a couple who despite ticking all the boxes just didn't seem right - at the mention of EN they ran a mile .
If I didn't early neuter now I wouldn't hesitate to do it again in a similar situation


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Anyone who has been on this forum a while would know I didn't EN. There was a vet I knew and trusted who would do so for me but I considered the journey too long. I 'considered' it with every litter so no dishonesty


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

I don't mind sticking my neck out as I am considered an 'outsider' within this particular part of the forum anyway but I have never early neutered and if I had continued breeding I probably wouldn't either. My own vet is quite happy to EN if breeders require (she doesn't for owners) as she does neutering for the RSPCA and Cats Protection but she said out of around 30 registered breeders (including Maine Coons, Siamese, Ragdolls and Persians) around the West Midlands she said that she has only been asked once.

I think everyone is entitled to their view and that should be respected and not constantly told 'well you're wrong'. I am a member of the Maine Coon cat clubs and know probably at least 20-30 breeders around the country and I only know of 2 who EN but it could be a breed thing. Maine Coons are slow maturing and growing which is one reason often cited for delaying neutering. Whether that is true or not I don't know my own neuter boy is 11kg and was we neutered him at 6 months but although he has a large head he certainly doesn't have the same cheek structure that our stud boy has.

To me my reasons for not early neutering are that I think its too much stress on a young kitten (which I know others don't agree) but to put a young kitten through vaccinations, early neutering and homing in such a short space of time is too much in my opinion. Having brought up a number of kittens and being very close to my feline family I know how distressing it can be going through separation from their family without adding extra in the mix too. For me breeders EN for one reason and that is too protect their lines and stop their kittens being bred from, fine if you have so little trust in your owners that's your choice but mine is I'd rather choose the right owners and trust them. I have always advised that kittens are neutered by 8-10 months (my own two girls I kept as pets from my own breeding Yoda and Koda I didn't neuter until they were a year old) and I have kept in touch with all my kitten owners (all 70 plus of them) as that is part of their agreement with me. Out of all those owners only once has a litter ever been produced (except of course for Active cats sold). I have also noticed that EN kittens this year from Maine Coons anyway seem to be sold at £100 or £150 more, not sure how a breeder could justify that price hike for an EN (again may be different for other breeds)

I don't have to justify my decision to not early neuter any more than anyone should have to justify why they are not. Although it would seem in the small world of an internet forum everyone EN in the real world I haven't seen any evidence for that. It is no different to differing opinions on in/out, feeding or even vaccinations just because people don't agree.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_For me breeders EN for one reason and that is too protect their lines and stop their kittens being bred from, fine if you have so little trust in your owners_
You couldn't be more wrong. Every breeder I know who does EN does so because they have seen how much *less* stress it causes for a kitten still in its birth home, still with its mother and litter mates. They, and I, have seen how much more quickly a kitten recovers from the procedure. There's no benefit to a breeder in EN. It's an extra expense, kittens are usually neutered at around 13/14 weeks and kept until 15 weeks so there's extra expense in keeping them on top of the actual cost of neutering. I've witnessed the difference just as I've witnessed many changes in four decades of breeding (six if you count me growing up in a breeding household though I won't claim that as my own experience). There's no way these breeders change how carefully they pick new owners, no way someone who is prepared to go to all that extra effort for their kittens then lets them go to people they don't trust.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

We have been told there is research which shows EN is bad for kittens, but a reference to it hasn't been forthcoming.

_"For me breeders EN for one reason and that is too protect their lines and stop their kittens being bred from, fine if you have so little trust in your owners that's your choice but mine is I'd rather choose the right owners and trust them"_

So would we all but a lot of us have had experiences of choosing what we thought were the right homes to find our kittens being bred from, deliberately or accidentally. Either you have been lucky or you are better at working out who is what they say they are and who isn't.

My own experience is that they bounce back faster than adults do - the boys that were castrated this morning have eaten and are sunbathing.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I'm interested in how exactly it protects lines. A breeder sells an entire kitten to a pet home. That pet owner then has a litter from it. The kitten will have been on the non-active register so can't go to a registered stud, any progeny can't be registered so aren't of any 'line' at all. Where's the protection of lines in EN?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

havoc said:


> _<snip>_
> There's no way these breeders change how carefully they pick new owners, no way someone who is prepared to go to all that extra effort for their kittens then lets them go to people they don't trust.


Very true. I got a very abusive email from a man who having met him I refused to sell to.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

havoc said:


> I'm interested in how exactly it protects lines. A breeder sells an entire kitten to a pet home. That pet owner then has a litter from it. The kitten will have been on the non-active register so can't go to a registered stud, any progeny can't be registered so aren't of any 'line' at all. Where's the protection of lines in EN?


Exactly. Protection of lines comes from never selling anything on the Active Register, not from EN on pet kittens which are not able to produce kittens capable of being shown or going into a breeding programme.



chloe1975 said:


> I have also noticed that EN kittens this year from Maine Coons anyway seem to be sold at £100 or £150 more, not sure how a breeder could justify that price hike for an EN (again may be different for other breeds)


Probably because this can be what it costs to do EN. It's not just the cost of the op itself there is the extra two-three weeks of food and litter those kittens will use in the extra time they are with the breeder. I don't see anything wrong with an attempt to get some of these extra costs back, God knows raising kittens is an expensive enough exercise at the best of times


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

The kittens I breed are not early neutered. I've considered it, over and over again in the last few years, and the reasons for choosing not to do so are anything other than (a) protecting my lines and/or (b) that I think EN in any way whatsoever harmful or too risky.

'My' lines are simply the product of all those breeders who went before me who were generous enough and thoughtful enough about the future of the breed. 

In my experience of speaking to several vets who do not EN (and two had never even apparently heard of the concept) their refusal or reluctance to do so is based on nothing more than the very ingrained tradition that "6 months old is about the right time" which, as far I can possibly tell, has no actual basis in veterinary science 'fact'. I've yet to find a single study, meaningful or otherwise, to suggest any downside whatsoever to EN; quite the contrary. I'm sure it will become common, accepted practice in the UK, as it has done in other parts of the world, at some time in the future, of that I've little doubt.


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

Tigermoon said:


> Probably because this can be what it costs to do EN. It's not just the cost of the op itself there is the extra two-three weeks of food and litter those kittens will use in the extra time they are with the breeder. I don't see anything wrong with an attempt to get some of these extra costs back, God knows raising kittens is an expensive enough exercise at the best of times


I've always kept my kittens until 14 or 15 weeks anyway, I don't think they are ready to leave mum before then, some not even at that age. I wouldn't charge extra for doing so as its my choice to keep them longer.

And i agree that obviously you can't register or show any kitten produced from a non active mating but it is still about not wanting your lines being used for breeding you haven't authorised.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

It may well be a protection for individual kittens but it's got f' all to do with 'lines' being used for breeding.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

gskinner123 said:


> In my experience of speaking to several vets who do not EN (and two had never even apparently heard of the concept) their refusal or reluctance to do so is based on nothing more than the very ingrained tradition that "6 months old is about the right time" which, as far I can possibly tell, has no actual basis in veterinary science 'fact'. * I've yet to find a single study, meaningful or otherwise, to suggest any downside whatsoever to EN; quite the contrary*. I'm sure it will become common, accepted practice in the UK, as it has done in other parts of the world, at some time in the future, of that I've little doubt.


I do not think anybody here is trying to pressurise breeders into EN if they do not wish to do it. However we do not have the information that says neutering a young kitten is more risky than waiting until it is older. On the contrary I agree with the above statement. Surely if there is research to suggest the opposite, those in possession of that knowledge should share it for the benefit of all kittens whose breeders only have the readily available current opinion from the bodies I mentioned before. To simply reiterate that EN is too risky will not help any breeder who wants the best for their kittens. If there is the evidence I have no doubt that conscientious breeders will take note of it and factor it into their future decisions.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

chloe1975 said:


> I don't mind sticking my neck out as I am considered an 'outsider' within this particular part of the forum anyway but I have never early neutered and if I had continued breeding I probably wouldn't either. My own vet is quite happy to EN if breeders require (she doesn't for owners) as she does neutering for the RSPCA and Cats Protection but she said out of around 30 registered breeders (including Maine Coons, Siamese, Ragdolls and Persians) around the West Midlands she said that she has only been asked once.
> 
> I think everyone is entitled to their view and that should be respected and not constantly told 'well you're wrong'. I am a member of the Maine Coon cat clubs and know probably at least 20-30 breeders around the country and I only know of 2 who EN but it could be a breed thing. Maine Coons are slow maturing and growing which is one reason often cited for delaying neutering. Whether that is true or not I don't know my own neuter boy is 11kg and was we neutered him at 6 months but although he has a large head he certainly doesn't have the same cheek structure that our stud boy has.
> 
> ...


We can be outsiders together! ;-)


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

This thread wasn't about whether breeders choose to EN. It moved first to being about whether buyers found it offputting and the suggestion was made that some may. I agree totally that it's the breeder's choice. As I've pointed out I didn't EN. What I can't get my head round at all is the idea that any legitimate pet buyer would research the subject and find against it. They aren't bearing any risk at all and there are better issues they could/should raise with the breeder when considering a purchase.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

So, if we apparently EN to stop unauthorised breeding of our lines and no other reason, and that's put across as a bad thing, are you saying that if you heard that one of your kittens sold as pet was being bred from, you would be Ok with that? Or would you want them to stop breeding the cat? Or would you consider, as many contracts state, going and getting your kitten back?

If you wouldn't be happy with a kitten of yours being bred, ask yourself why. Probably because you'd be worried about BYBs back to back breeding or homing the cat elsewhere when they were done, or letting her get out of condition, or disease, or risk to the cat, or the fact that they have a genetic trait that shouldn't be bred, or... The list goes on and on and on.

this is why I EN. They bounce back quicker, the op is smaller, they bleed less, there is no greater risk if done by an experienced vet, they are in the care of a hopefully very knowledgeable person who will return to the vet at the first sign of a problem rather than a first time owner who may not know.

I believe that I could happily have homed all of my kittens without EN and none of them would be bred from on purpose. But by accident? Well, who knows. It's just not worth it.


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## smoking guns (Feb 24, 2015)

As a buyer, I think I would be much more inclined to go for an EN kitten because it saves the hassle, worry and potential heartache it could cause when I would have to go take them in myself. Just from watching the threads in Cat Chat about people taking in their kittens for neutering and how much they fret over it, I'm really glad I didn't have to go through that. And I'm actually quite relieved that, after an op where they get knocked out, they go back to a familiar environment, surrounded by all their siblings and mum, aunts, uncles etc. As I'm quite friendly with Gunter's breeder, so I sometimes pop round just for a chat, I've met kittens who had been spayed/neutered only hours earlier and they just bomb around as if nothing happened.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

havoc said:


> This thread wasn't about whether breeders choose to EN. It moved first to being about whether buyers found it offputting and the suggestion was made that some may. I agree totally that it's the breeder's choice. As I've pointed out I didn't EN. *What I can't get my* *head round at all is the idea that any legitimate pet buyer would research the subject and find against it.* They aren't bearing any risk at all and there are better issues they could/should raise with the breeder when considering a purchase.


Agreed, initially this thread was about an email server address. The query about EN arose from their location and possible intention to breed but it was then suggested that any potential kitten buyer might be put off an early neutered kitten because of 'valid concerns about the future health of their kitten.' It was also stated later that one vet's opposition was 'risk based.' These sorts of statements plus traditional attitudes are far more likely to be the basis of any potential owners' caution about EN rather than any research of their own.

In my view this is why it is so important to know the latest expert view in order to counteract any false impressions created by those who make assertions without providing any evidence.


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## bingolitle (Dec 6, 2014)

Perhaps a little of the concern comes from dogs - where neutering seems to be being left later and later or not done at at all due to concerns over joint damage - I think that's what it is anyway.
Many people would not perceive a big difference between cats and dogs unless it was explained.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

bingolitle said:


> Perhaps a little of the concern comes from dogs - where neutering seems to be being left later and later or not done at at all due to concerns over joint damage - I think that's what it is anyway.
> Many people would not perceive a big difference between cats and dogs unless it was explained.


I think you are right that some vets still maybe unconsciously regard cats as a strange sort of dog. AFAIK (and I don't have dogs) there are issues beyond joint damage with dogs, but those issues have been looked for with EN cats, and some countries have been doing EN for 20 years which is quite long enough (well over a lifetime for most cats) to find out if there are problems with it.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Catharinem said:


> I beleive in this country it is "acceptable" to disagree with or without quoting specific research papers! I've also said I'm happy not to have a consensus on this, I know I won't change your minds, but am open to neutering at lower weight if and when my vet considers the risk/benefit balance has changed. However, I won't be changing to a less cautious vet for the sake of a few weeks growth.


I'm sure you didn't mean it to come across like that, but I am a early neutering vet who considers myself _very_ cautious. I take my job with these kittens extremely seriously, whether they are the pedigree Ragdolls I did this week or the stray kittens from our local rescue the week before. I have neutered scores of little ones and *touch wood* have yet to witness a single complication.

I do my best to practice EBVM (evidence-based veterinary medicine), which promotes the use of scientific literature to help guide our treatment decisions where it exists. The evidence in favour of early neutering is strong.

I am actually a Kitten Neutering Champion with the KiND (Kitten Neutering Database), which means I 'champion' the cause and have volunteered to provide free advice or training to vets who want to start neutering earlier but don't feel they have the confidence or knowledge to do so. It's been six or seven months now and I have yet to receive a single request! But we're doing what we can to get as many vets as possible comfortable with neutering kittens, and I believe we're doing it responsibly.

Edit: I'm sorry, I made spelling errors.


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## Squeaks (Oct 16, 2014)

bingolitle said:


> Perhaps a little of the concern comes from dogs - where neutering seems to be being left later and later or not done at at all due to concerns over joint damage - I think that's what it is anyway.
> Many people would not perceive a big difference between cats and dogs unless it was explained.


I would agree with this. My only previous experience with pedigree animals was the golden retriever my parents have, who had it written into his contract from his breeder the complete opposite - that my parents *wouldn't *neuter him before he was 18 months old. This website explains why and actually mentions 2 years for males.

Consequently, I was rather surprised to read about EN on this site and I would certainly have questioned it had our breeder done it. Not sure I would have refused to take a kitten from her, but I would want to know her reasons and see the evidence. Afterall, it stands to reason the gonads are an important endocrine organ and there must be some effect of removing them so early?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Cats aren't dogs.


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## bingolitle (Dec 6, 2014)

Squeaks said:


> it stands to reason the gonads are an important endocrine organ and there must be some effect of removing them so early?


Not developing the behaviour patterns which are sex hormone driven is the main one.

male horses have been effectively EN for centuries and, as long as owners don't stuff food in to make them grow too fast, causes no long term health issues that I know of.

And no, cats are not horses either.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

The common age for neutering of 5-6 months is still pre-pubertal in most cats...


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Squeaks said:


> I would agree with this. My only previous experience with pedigree animals was the golden retriever my parents have, who had it written into his contract from his breeder the complete opposite - that my parents *wouldn't *neuter him before he was 18 months old. This website explains why and actually mentions 2 years for males.
> 
> Consequently, I was rather surprised to read about EN on this site and I would certainly have questioned it had our breeder done it. Not sure I would have refused to take a kitten from her, but I would want to know her reasons and see the evidence. Afterall, it stands to reason the gonads are an important endocrine organ and there must be some effect of removing them so early?


You have given good evidence as to why Goldens need to be neutered after puberty. So far there is no good evidence for doing that with kittens, and plenty that it does no harm.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Ingrained ideas can be extremely difficult to change in professionals. It's the whole thing about believing authority figures and if vets train under someone who has particular views they will tend to stick with that opinion. You only have to look to those countries where 'expert' opinion advocates declawing. I'm sure all those vets who do so are loved and trusted by clients who know no better.


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