# Help, our old cat has moved out!



## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

Hi All

I wonder if anyone could help me fathom out how to solve/resolve my feline problem?

My dear old cat appears to have moved out and its causing problems! Hes 17 years old and healthy (also neutered). No change here at home or extra stress (in so far as I can tell!).

Sorry this is a bit long but wanted to give you enough information.

Up until recently, hes been a real homebody, follows me around the house, never wanders far, just pops out to the loo and back in again (literally goes out, visits the garden and immediately scratches the door to come back in), sleeps on me (not next to me) every night and totally devoted and very content until 2 weeks ago.

Two weeks ago he went out to the loo late at night and didnt come back in. Couldnt find him anywhere and naturally worried, as it was unusual behaviour. We hunted high and low for him. Repeated the search during the following day too. 

Then a neighbour from the next street knocked on our door to say they had a ginger cat sleeping in their garden (under a fir tree). The neighbour said he thought it might be our cat because he knew we had an old ginger cat (hed seen him come to greet us at our door when we had been out).

We went to see and it was our Bertie so we brought him home and didnt think too much about it. We installed a litter tray and kept him in for a week. He then accidentally escaped and we went straight to the neighbours and collected him (we knew where to find him!).

The problem we have is two-fold. Firstly, Bertie is accustomed to having some outside time and has found the confinement intolerable (toileting all over the house, restless, scratching at the door, hunting for escape routes etc.) and secondly the neighbour doesnt want him in their garden. Apparently, they have a new and timid rescue cat that wont go out when he sees Bertie in their garden.

The problem is that they feed their rescue cat in the garden and Bertie is eating all their food (he has wet and dry food here  constant access, we even bought their brand of food when we knew what he was doing). It looks very much as if on his travels hes found their food and taken a liking to it and their garden. 

Anyway, weve kept him in for another week (misery for all of us) and he definitely doesnt want anything to do with us. Hes become very testy  not loving and devoted just bad tempered.

He escaped again tonight, shot through my sons legs as the front door opened. We went to get him back but he wouldnt come to us or let us catch him. About an hour later the neighbour knocked on the door and handed Bertie back to us. Hes sulking now!

I dont particularly want him pooping and peeing everywhere  despite giving him two litter boxes (but I can live with that!) but most importantly I dont want him miserable for the rest of his life by having to keep him confined. Each time he escapes (or if I were to let him out) he goes straight to the neighbours and its upsetting their cat and their routine.

Ive asked them not to feed their cat in their garden (in the hope that Bertie will give up) but Im not sure if theyve acted upon that. Ive also asked that they dont fuss or pet him (they seem unable to help themselves and hes treating them as his owners now). Hes making a real nuisance of himself as hes scratching and howling at their door during the night to be let into their house! They clearly dont want him around (in the nicest possible sense) and I want him safe with me and not kipping out in the cold under a tree with no shelter from the elements.

Any suggestions about what I can do?


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Wow - Bit of a problem there - I don't really know, but I would try to talk to the neighbours and maybe try to get them to frighten him out of their garden and make being there unpleasant for him. Get a feliway diffuser for your house. Treat him when he is in the house and play with him lots to make him feel welcome.


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

This is _very_ strange indeed. I've had cats who frequented neighbours' houses for food but they always came home volunarily at a later stage! Are you absolutely sure nothing has changed recently at home? Might even be something you believe is totally unconnected.

Now I'm wondering if it may be a_ form_ of early stage dementia since it sounds as if he truly believes this is his home. However, I'd like to rule out a medical problem as well so I'd pop him along to the vets for a blood test-it's always a good idea with oldies to check organ function especially liver, kidneys etc.


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## jill3 (Feb 18, 2009)

Has he recently had a check over at the vets?
If he hasn't I think I would take him just to make sure everything is ok with his health.
Also you could cat proof your garden so he can go out but not out of your garden. If you have high fencing then it is quite easy to do and not expensive.

I think most elderly cats like to be in home in the warmth especially now the weather is getting colder.
Just wondering as he always liked to be in home if he has got bit of Altzimers. (sorry not sure how to spell it)
We have 17.6 year old cat and she has become more vocal and a bit deaf.

I would try and keep him in and although he might not like it for a few weeks i am sure he will get use to it.
Now the weather is getting colder he could catch a bad cold and is not good for an elderly puss.
Like spid says try a feliway plug in, it might help.


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

Hi Spid, Ianthi & Jill3

Thanks for your comments, much appreciated.

Bertie has been checked over at the vets about a month ago and found to be healthy. Took him because he had a watery eye  no infection, apparently an age related thing. Will make another appointment for bloods as those were last done 6 months ago when he had his thyroid gland removed due to over activity.

Hes very much loved here and treated like our baby. Sleeps on me in bed and has cat treats on the bed every night before we settle down.

I think he might have Alzheimers, weve been discussing that recently as hes been a little peculiar for a while now. So strange that he would swap the love of his life (me!), a warm house/bed and his cat treats for a fir tree in a neighbours garden. 

Will also get a feliway, and see if that helps. With regard to things changing at home, the night he went out and didnt come home was the night I wormed him. He doesnt like being wormed, doesnt make a fuss as such but definitely not keen! Strange though as hes wormed regularly. Think the key was that he happened across the neighbours house and rather fancies the set up!

Our garden is secure with 8 ft fencing and no escape routes as such but he can climb the fencing so not sure how I can make it cat escape proof. Hes like a man on a mission with his escape plans now!

Toileting in the house continues unabated  hes peeing here there and everywhere and pooping and hes very vocal about being shut in. 

Much as I want to keep him in 24/7 I dont think that is going to be possible. Hes been in for nearly 3 weeks now (bar the brief escape) and is as miserable as sin about it. He has been a homebody all his life but has always gone out briefly to the toilet and I think hes too set in his ways to become a 100% indoor cat (when he doesnt want to be). I feel Im going to have to let him out and then fetch him home again if he doesnt return of his own volition.

Will speak to the neighbours again and ask them to shoo him out of their garden. They have been inadvertently encouraging him by fussing him and with their food supply he's clearly happy enough with the arrangements  strange boy!


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

there are ways to make 8ft fencing secure. The easiest is to put angled bracket along the top with netting attached so they have to climb out backwards/ upside-down (not possible) to get out.


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

ChrissyP said:


> .
> 
> Bertie has been checked over at the vets about a month ago and found to be healthy. Took him because he had a watery eye  no infection, apparently an age related thing. Will make another appointment for bloods as those were last done 6 months ago when he had his thyroid gland removed due to over activity.
> 
> ...


Have you noticed this 'peculiarity' since the thyroidectomy op then? Any other symptoms. Increased drinking and urination? Appetite levesl? I wonder if a contributory factor is because he's seeking out a cooler environment?

Has he had a bloodtest post thyroidectomy to check the T4 levels? The reason I ask is because sometimes there's ectopic tissue which is still 'active' outside the surgery site. Sometimes for this reason the operation isn't always 100% successful. Also it's important now to keep an eye on kidney levels as well since untreated hyperthyroidism can mask pre-existing renal problems which are revealed when it's treated. Toxin build-up can sometimes cause 'confusion' and a bloodtest might help to pinpoint a problem.

Hope you get to the root of the problem soon but I'd certainly like to exclude a medical component first!


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## jill3 (Feb 18, 2009)

I agree with spid and we have done this and here are the pictures.
As for the weeing and pooing. Have you tried putting a few litter trays down?
Also you can get puppy traing pads that might help.
If you haven't got any proper cleaning stuff for cat urine then i would try that. I know they sell it at pets at home.
Also you could ask what your neighbours have been feeding him with and get some.
When they get old they can be quite challenging but so can us when we get old 
Hopefully it's just a stage that he's going through and soon he will think that the warmth of the fire and a nice cuddle with you is far better.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

The catproofing is a great idea. I have had such peace of mind since I catproofed my garden.
Is is perhaps not a fascination with the neighbours' new rescue cat? Is she female? When I got my neutered boy, he developed a sort of "crush" on our neighbours' (spayed) female. She is very aloof and really played "hard to get". Nunu was mooning around the back door all the time, trying to see her and, when he got out, hung around their front gate for a glimpse of Snuki. Eventually she overcame her shyness with him and allowed him to approach her, at which point he immediately lost interest (typical male ). Nunu has not been much interested in Snuki since. Has Bertie had contact with the new kitty yet? It is possible that he will retain this "fascination" until the novelty wears off and the phase will pass.
Good luck.


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

Ianthi said:


> Have you noticed this 'peculiarity' since the thyroidectomy op then? Any other symptoms. Increased drinking and urination? Appetite levesl? I wonder if a contributory factor is because he's seeking out a cooler environment?
> 
> Has he had a bloodtest post thyroidectomy to check the T4 levels? The reason I ask is because sometimes there's ectopic tissue which is still 'active' outside the surgery site. Sometimes for this reason the operation isn't always 100% successful. Also it's important now to keep an eye on kidney levels as well since untreated hyperthyroidism can mask pre-existing renal problems which are revealed when it's treated. Toxin build-up can sometimes cause 'confusion' and a bloodtest might help to pinpoint a problem.
> 
> Hope you get to the root of the problem soon but I'd certainly like to exclude a medical component first!


He started to get a little "strange" before the thyroidectomy but settled down (was less strange if you know what I mean) after the operation. He hasnt been blood tested since the op.

Like you I wondered about him wanting to be cooler just recently (but it has been hot here). Now the days and nights are cooler I was expecting him to be snuggled in against me.

Hes displaying none of the symptoms that lead me to take him to the vets for the thyroid problem. When that started two things were very obvious, one was the drinking (I suspected diabetes) and the other was that he started eating like a horse!

Will get them to check him over and test as appropriate but there are no obvious symptoms associated with the thyroid (unless the Alzheimers and wanting to sleep in cooler places are symptoms).


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

jill3 said:


> I agree with spid and we have done this and here are the pictures.
> As for the weeing and pooing. Have you tried putting a few litter trays down?
> Also you can get puppy traing pads that might help.
> If you haven't got any proper cleaning stuff for cat urine then i would try that. I know they sell it at pets at home.
> ...


Thanks for the photos, they are excellent. I thought that's what you meant by "cat proofing" but it's good to see a brilliant example!

We are off on holiday tomorrow (dogs and cat staying at home with our adult children). Will prod my husband into action upon our return


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

koekemakranka said:


> The catproofing is a great idea. I have had such peace of mind since I catproofed my garden.
> Is is perhaps not a fascination with the neighbours' new rescue cat? Is she female? When I got my neutered boy, he developed a sort of "crush" on our neighbours' (spayed) female. She is very aloof and really played "hard to get". Nunu was mooning around the back door all the time, trying to see her and, when he got out, hung around their front gate for a glimpse of Snuki. Eventually she overcame her shyness with him and allowed him to approach her, at which point he immediately lost interest (typical male ). Nunu has not been much interested in Snuki since. Has Bertie had contact with the new kitty yet? It is possible that he will retain this "fascination" until the novelty wears off and the phase will pass.
> Good luck.


Well he could be being "manly" I guess as I think their cat is a girl. They haven't said much about her. I don't think they have met "face to face" as they say she's timid and won't go in the garden when she sees him in residence


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

jill3 said:


> As for the weeing and pooing. Have you tried putting a few litter trays down?
> Also you can get puppy traing pads that might help.
> If you haven't got any proper cleaning stuff for cat urine then i would try that. I know they sell it at pets at home.
> Also you could ask what your neighbours have been feeding him with and get some.


We have dogs (Bertie's been brought up with them and has always been dog like) and so puppy pads and urine cleaning solutions in plentiful supply 

We have bought the neighbours cat food too, that's the first thing we did. He's eating it happily at home, munching his way through it, but is still intent on going back to his "second home" (well perhaps we are his second home now!)

Before the neighbour issue he was fed dry (24/7) plus three meals of wet. He didnt really eat the wet, just a taste before walking away (hence not 24 hr access to wet as it just dried up on the dish!)

Will put the pads down in his favourite locations. He is using his litter trays too but he does a wee then won't use the box. It's not that I'm not cleaning it out after every wee, it's just that now he's eating so much wet food he's weeing a lot more at night when I cant tell hes used the box. So he appears to use the box, then wees/poops around the house (on material items) until I muck out!

Bless him, still love the pest!


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## kathyj (Aug 14, 2011)

I was thinking maybe it was some kind of dementia. We had an old cat who I am sure displayed signs of this, but it wasn't helped with being nearly totally blind and deaf. I would definitely get him checked over again.

I kept our cat for the last 6 months of his life (but thankfully he accepted it). 

I hope you get to the bottom of the problem quickly.


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

kathyj said:


> I was thinking maybe it was some kind of dementia. We had an old cat who I am sure displayed signs of this, but it wasn't helped with being nearly totally blind and deaf. I would definitely get him checked over again.
> 
> I kept our cat for the last 6 months of his life (but thankfully he accepted it).
> 
> I hope you get to the bottom of the problem quickly.


Think dementia might be the root cause (there may be something else as well). Have just watched him have a pee next to his litter box (litter box is clean!) Squatted right next to it and looked at me and pee'd! Mind you he was in a grump after being removed from swiping my fish of my dinner plate! Actually had to prize the fish out of his grasp 

Our previous oldies all gave up going outside of their own choice as they aged. Haven't had any with dementia but there is always a first time. Will get blood tests to rule out toxin related memory issues etc. and if I can find nothing technically wrong with him will have to assume dementia.

Off on holiday tomorrow (only for a week) so will update you on my return (after a vet visit). Obviously if he's not well whilst I'm away (as opposed to bloody minded!) my daughter will pop him up to our vets but Id rather take him myself.


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## kathyj (Aug 14, 2011)

Have a great holiday.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Something similar happeened to me with my Klaatu, who was utterly devoted to me, and would come running towards me if I called him. But once he had discovered the homes of a number of other cats, he came home less and less often, and in the end stayed away altogether. He had found so many homes where he could feed, and he simply bullied cats and humans, and even dogs, into accepting him.
He loved the pensioners'home, especially the psycho-geriatric ward and the cafetaria. But he also broke into the independent apartments connected wit hthe home, and started stealing steaks and chicken legs, and even chunks of cheese, from their kitchens.

I took him home and kept him in for a week, but as soon as he was let out, he stayed away again and visited all his other 'homes' in turn. People started threatening him for stealing their food, and so I kept him in altogether, which meant I had to catch him, first. 

He didn't take kindly to it, and started harrassing the other cats, who could, and did, go out. In the end I had to rehome him, as he became posotivelly violent towards us AND the cats. He just wouldn't be denied choosing his own home, or homes (he had about 20).....

No dementia in his case, he was a young cat, only about 2 or 3. He was just very stubborn and dominant about choosing where he wished to live and feed. He also claimed the best chair in each home he invaded, and would growl at anyone who tried to remove him. This did not impress me, I would simplly sweep him out, but the elderly people were quite daunted by his agression and leave him be, which was much more to hiis liking, of course.....


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

Hi Jiskefet

Sorry to hear that your youngster had to go to a new home. Funny devils cats!

Bertie has always come running to us, still comes to me in the house when I call him. He's taken to growling at anyone (not me yet) who moves him away from the door (so they can go out without him escaping). Very unlike our Bertie. He was a cat that you could do anything with without moaning about it.

Not keen on the worming but wouldn't dream of growling. Yesterday he took a swipe at my grandaughter as she went past him (not a playful swipe either!). Def. very cross about being kept in the "prison" that was his home.


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## jenny armour (Feb 28, 2010)

sounds to me like he may be suffering from a bit of dementia


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## jenny armour (Feb 28, 2010)

having just read some more of the comments on here and me also suggesting dementia, i had a ragdoll that at the age of 16 years old started to pee next tothe litter tray after years of being a clean boy.
i found i was having to put trays down wherever he peed and i also took the cover off of the tray for easy access.
i had him checked out by the vet in case he had kidney problems but he was fine, yet he was peeing every couple of hours towards the end.
i would def get him checked out by the vet but i def think it is dementia


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

ChrissyP said:


> He started to get a little "strange" before the thyroidectomy but settled down (was less strange if you know what I mean) after the operation. He hasnt been blood tested since the op.
> 
> Will get them to check him over and test as appropriate but there are no obvious symptoms associated with the thyroid (unless the Alzheimers and wanting to sleep in cooler places are symptoms).


He really should have had a bloodtest a few weeks after the operation not only to check 'current' thyroid function but also kidneys as well, since treated hyperT can unmask renal probs. I'd request a BP check and urinalysis as well!

Seeking out cooler places is a symptoms of hyperthyroidism though on its own it may not be significant.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Chrissy -- I sympathise with your difficult situation with Bertie. I must say I think your neighbour has not behaved reponsibly in feeding and petting him when he is in their garden, as this is bound to have encouraged him to think he has a second home there. Particularly so, as he appears to be a bit mentally confused -- due to old age and possibly dementia. 

Personally I would not shut Bertie in, as it sounds like it's making him miserable and aggressive, and spoiling his quality of life. Having never been just an indoor cat he probably cannot understand why he is suddenly being imprisoned. So I would let him go out as much as he has been allowed to all his life. 

But the neighbour needs very much to play their part. If they don't want Bertie in their garden because of their own cat, then they should make the effort to keep Bertie out -- either by constantly shooing him out, or by cat-proofing their garden with the high add-on sloping net fencing another poster has shown. 

You also need a firm undertaking from the neighbour that under no circumstances will they feed Bertie. (What possible justification could they have for feeding him in the first place? ) 
I am assuming the neighbour is not leaving cat food unattended out in the garden ? (which would be asking for trouble) Is Bertie getting in through the neighbour's cat flap and stealing food? If so it is is easily remedied by the neighbour fitting a microchip cat flap. 

Hopefully, if Bertie loses the option of going to to the neighbour's he will decide of his own accord to come back home again. Though, if he has a bit of dementia, there is no saying his behaviour is going to be as loving as it was before. I have found with some of my 'oldies' they withdraw into themselves for the last few yrs of their lives, no longer much interested in cuddles or strokes. It is sad.... but one of those things... 

I would certainly do as others have advised and get Bertie thoroughly checked by the vet, with blood tests. One of my cats had hyperthyroidism, which once it was diagnosed and treated revealed advanced stage Chronic Renal Failure (CRF), which had previously been masked by the thyroid disease. CRF often causes mental confusion, personality changes and behavioural changes. 

Once the weather gets much colder I bet Bertie will be home though.


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

Hi All

Quick update on Bertie.

Back from holiday last night and have just returned from the vets. Bloods taken, overactive thyroid strongly suspected due to enlarged gland and high blood pressure (ease of taking blood).

Will await test results and either start medication or consider removing the remaining lobe (one has already been removed). Latter option more risky so suspect medication will be the choice.

Thanks for all your invaluable advice. Hopefully Bertie will be as good as new and back to his normal self once the thyroid issue is brought under control.


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## kathyj (Aug 14, 2011)

Fingers crossed for the test results. My old cat also had hyper-thyroid and we had him for tablets for the last 4 or 5 years of his life. They do pretty well on the medication. It will be interestin to see if this has been the cause of his parrticular pattern of altered behaviour.


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

Thanks for updating Chrissie. Poor Bertie - not surprising then he's been acting strange! Keep us posted!


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

Hi everyone

My vet rang me just before 6 pm to say he'd got the T4 results, they were 70 so I've started him on Vidalta tonight. 

Hopefully that will not take too long to kick in and dear Bertie will be much improved. 

We are going to take more bloods in 30 days and see how things are going. The vet suggests that due to his age and the issue with removing the remaining lobe (due to the parathyroid gland attached) that we should probably rule out surgery and maintain him on the Vidalta.

I think the reason why there were no other obvious symptoms (apart from the behaviour change) was because although the levels are elevated they are not extreme. With the first episode, there were lots of symptoms and the levels then were 90. My vet tells me that any cat with a level over 60 is hyperthyroid.

Bit unfortunate for Bertie that the removal of one lobe didn't keep him well for as long as one would hope before a reoccurrence.

Kidneys are fine, liver is a bit "off" but that's apparently common with the hyperthyroid.


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

Chrissy - I reckon given the short space of time, it's far more likely this is due to ectopic tissue as opposed to a new tumour on the remaining lobe. Most frequently this occurs about a year or more post surgery. Sometimes tissue can be present in the chest away from the main surgery site, though it can re-grow here as well. (Without a special X-ray impossible to know where it's migrated to in the body). In a few weeks time the T4 could well be close to 90 as well. Our cat had a T4 of 240 on diagnosis!!

Has Bertie had Vidalta before? Hope he's better soon.


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

Ianthi said:


> Chrissy - I reckon given the short space of time, it's far more likely this is due to ectopic tissue as opposed to a new tumour on the remaining lobe. Most frequently this occurs about a year or more post surgery. Sometimes tissue can be present in the chest away from the main surgery site, though it can re-grow here as well. (Without a special X-ray impossible to know where it's migrated to in the body). In a few weeks time the T4 could well be close to 90 as well. Our cat had a T4 of 240 on diagnosis!!
> 
> Has Bertie had Vidalta before? Hope he's better soon.


Hi Ianthi

My vet mentioned the possibility of ectopic tissue in the chest, which is one of the reasons why he feels surgery isn't the best option.

Wow, 240 on diagnosis, I thought 90 (the first time around) sounded bad!

Yes, Bertie had Vidalta for a month prior to surgery last time  to stabilise him before surgery.

I gave him the first dose last night (just after hed eaten) and boy did we have an eventful night! He spent the night vomiting here there and everywhere! So we had six or seven piles of sick to clean up, three lake size piddles and two poops all in the space of about 4 hours!

Hes toileting all over the house (still). Ive worked out that he never visits a spot twice so hes getting very inventive about where hes going! Weve had on the bed (pretty standard!), in the laundry basket, in a shoe, in a slipper, on a magazine by the bed and the Pièce de résistance a big poo sitting on top of a sack containing about 60 large bags of dog chews which is waiting for me to put in a cupboard!

I hope hes better soon too as Im on a constant hunt for pee and poo  never know where Im going to find it! The only place I can guarantee is that it wont be in the four litter boxes or on any of the puppy pee pads dotted about the house


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

Sorry to hear about all the vomiting and pooing, though I hope the latter resolves when he stabilises. I'm glad to hear he was OK before on the Vidalta because this struck me as being a fairly high dose of carbimazole for a cat with a T4 of 90, which is relatively low. However if the sickness continues ( it may have been a one off! ) then I'd speak to the vet about Felimazole.

Yes, our cat had a bilateral thyroidectomy ( not simultaneous obviously) and has done very well ever since. She's one of the lucky ones with no ectopic tissue present elsewhere, though this isn't always the case. I've heart of quite a few!


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## kathyj (Aug 14, 2011)

My cat was on Felimazole too, and did really well on it. It seems that felimazole is used more often than Vidalta - at least in my job as a petsittter, I have only come across Vidalta twice, compared to say many more cats on Felimazole. Or is it that it is a newer medicine?


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

According to my vet, Felimazole is much better tolerated than Vidalta, though a common side effect of all anti-thyroid medications for cats is vomiting.

I had one HyperT cat who did well on Felimazole, but another cat, only slightly HyperT, could not tolerate oral Felimazole, and I had to order transdermal Methimazole from Switzerland, which is specially compounded in a gel form to be applied to the inside of the cat's ears.

I think this article might possibly be of interest to you, or to anyone else who is currently treating a HyperT cat.

Hyperthyroidism In Your Cat - Its Cause And Its Treatment


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

Hi Ianthi & kathyj

Thanks for the info. on Felimazole. Will see how Bertie gets on with the Vidalta and then speak to the vet about a switch if need be. 

To be honest I can't remember whether he was sick or not the first time he went onto the Vidalta. I normally make a note of such events but on checking my database (where all my animal records are kept) I've made no note other than the treatment.

I hope the sickness was an isolated event. He's only having one pill per day so it won't be until this evening so we'll see how well it's tolerated. I'm sure it was the Vidalta that caused the sickness but he was also prob. stressed having been made to go to the vets and perhaps the combination proved too much . The sickness started at about 2.30 am, so approx. 7 hrs after the dose.

Thanks for the URL chillminx, I'll have a read up now. 

I think the pooing/peeing business will settle when he's stabilized. Hes always been clean but looking back when the thyroid thing first started (last time) he became dirty in the house. At that time another neighbour acquired their daughters tom and the tom was beating Bertie up and he wouldnt go out. 

Before the last thyroid diagnosis i.e. in the two weeks prior, Bertie became dirty and we assumed it was the stress from the tom before we made the connection. Should have guessed the same this time but there is always something i.e. this time we thought the dirtiness was the stress of being made to stay in 24/7 due to the absconding! Oh the benefit of hindsight


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

Quick update on Bertie!

The meds have kicked in now, he's much improved. Still toileting all over the house but has stopped being restless and looking to escape. Is now interacting with me and sitting on me for brief periods and will lie on the bed with me (but no lie on me).

So happy that the real Bertie is coming back to me.

The sickness hasn't returned either so the Vidalta is being tolerated.

Thanks everyone for all your help and advice, much appreciated.

xx


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## kathyj (Aug 14, 2011)

That's great news. Hopefully the improvements will continue and very soon you really will have the old Bertie back.


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

kathyj said:


> That's great news. Hopefully the improvements will continue and very soon you really will have the old Bertie back.


Thanks Kathyj

I think I spoke a little too soon about the change in his escape attempts, he was frantic to get out last night and did indeed escape whilst Trick or Treat visitors were at the door!

I went straight to the neighbours garden (in the next street) and brought him home. We had a restless night with him howling and jumping on and off window sills!

I was wondering if I should let him out in the mornings and if he's not back here at home after a couple of hours then go and collect him. He obviously needs to be here at 7 pm each night for his Vidalta (& of course to ensure he's in the dry/warm overnight).

He's been on "house arrest" for about 5 weeks now and yet the escape last night saw him nip back to the neighbours - he's clearly not given up his plans!

Before all this began he literally went out for a few mins. then scratched at the door to be let back in and then stayed happily in the house before having a further few mins. outside later in the day. I'm hoping this pattern will return. It's doing his head in being confined to the house 24/7. Don't want to risk him not getting his Vidalta but I'm wondering if I let him out a) he'll either return of his own accord or b) I can go and get him.

What does anyone think? Am I being too premature given he's only been on the Vidalta for 4 days (today is day 5)?


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## kathyj (Aug 14, 2011)

It probably is still early days - maybe the vet can advise on that one. 

I wonder if Bertie has now got used to his new routine, that it is now part of his permanent routine, and won't change because of the medication. For example, he may have been a home loving cat because he didn't know any better. Then his thyroid started to cause him to be restless etc, and he has realised that there are other nice places to visit (not that your home is not nice too  ), and although he will lose his restlessness, he will still want to go to the places he is used to visiting now. Probably not what you wanted to hear, but just a thought.

I would be tempted to try your idea of letting him out after his morrning tablet, and see how things go. At least you have a pretty good idea where he will be. See how it goes for a couple of days, and if it isn't working, then back to the drawing board. 

Good luck.


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

Thanks kathyj.

Bertie is on one tablet a day.

I'm not sure how quickly the tablets help, however I believe I read on the datasheet that they "wear off" after about 48 hrs so I presume a similar timeframe applies to their effectiveness. 

Ive put a note through the neighbours door telling them I was going to let Bertie out and to shoo him away if hes not wanted. Ive now let him out. He went out and pottered around the front of our house, came back to the door, started to come back in and then changed his mind and went off in the direction of their house! Don't think he could believe his luck, the door has been barred for so long and now his Mum's standing and telling he can go out if he wants to!

If hes not back here in a couple of hours, Ill go and fetch him 

We'll see how we go on. As you say, now he's found another paradise he probably likes that too and can see no reason to change his views


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## mgreen1 (Aug 8, 2011)

Your problem sounds so similar to what we had with our old black cat 'chalkie' He also had a thyroidectomy which solved the 'manic hunger' problems but he then went very strange. He walked around the house crying especially at night when he couldn't find us downstairs. As soon as i called him, he came up onto the bed. It was as though he'd lost all memory of where he was. Maybe this is what is happening to your puss. Chalkie also started weeing and pooing everywhere, on the bed, on our clothes etc. He also started doing something most inappropriate! He would sit on me and it would look like he was mating with me, if I tried to stop him he would bite me quite hard. He even had his penis out!! The vet said he'd never heard of this behaviour before in a neuteured cat. Maybe more research should be done in relation to throidectomies bringing on alhzimers.
We came to the conclusion that it was ahlzimers and just 'put up' with all these behaviours as he was also 17 years old. I hope we made he's remaining days as happy as possible. Sadly he died at Easter and he is badly missed x


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

Hi mgreen1

Sorry to hear you lost dear Chalkie at Easter, bless him.

Bertie has settled a bit (I say a bit!). Hes still peeing and pooping around the house but to a lesser extent now that hes allowed outside for four hours in the mid morning to afternoon. Hes spending his outside time at the neighbours in their custom built wooden cat house! When his allotted time is up, I go down to their garden and carry him home! The extreme wandering/howling has also stopped since starting the Vidalta.

Funny you should mention the mating behaviour. Bertie has often done this over the years (despite being neutered at 6 mths). Its only me he humps and he only does it in bed with me  he also has his penis out! He hasnt done this recently though as he refuses to sleep with me now and stays on the landing (despite my bedroom door open as usual). As hes neutered, Ive always thought it to be dominance behaviour rather than sexually motivated. Might be wrong about that but I think he thinks Im his lady and hes in charge. When I stop him he gives in gracefully, never attempted to bite or persist. None of my previous male neuters has ever bothered. 

Hes not doing that well to be honest, hes hardly eating and is frequently sick during the night. Hes now taken to being sick within a short while of having the Vidalta and is vomiting back the tablet with the food hes been given at tablet time. Im going to have a chat with the vet today and see if we can change the medication.


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## kathyj (Aug 14, 2011)

Great to hear that his behaviour has setttled just a little, but not good news re the vomiting. Definitely worth talking to the vet. 

For the record, my neutered male cat also seemed to get a little amorous - I noticed at bed time when he used to come into bed for his kneeding session. Thankfully never directly on me, if you know what I mean, but he was definitely getting something out of it.

Fingers crossed that something can be done about the medication.


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

Hi 

I suggest you join the Yahoo group .....

feline-hyperT : A support list for people whose cats have been diagnosed as hyperthyroid (hypothyroid also welcome).

I learnt a lot from this group when my angel , Black was diagnosed with Hyper T  It is very much believed that vets generally start off HT treatment at too high a dose and from my experience , this was very true :mad2:

My Black did not do well initially he was very sick and completely lost his appetite ! 

Black eventually went on Vidalta (as he was hard to pill and you only need Vidalta once per day ) but the lowest dose is 10mg , far too high in my opinion  As Vidalta is time released , the leaflet and the vets will tell you not to cut or crush it . however , I learnt through my research that Vidalta can be CUT but not crushed . I confirmed this with the manufacturer too .

I told my vet and she believed that this was true also as cutting does not destroy the coating like crushing does. :thumbup: I got myself a pill cutter and started giving him smaller doses and it worked a treat :thumbup::thumbup:

*PLEASE do not take my word for this though, please do your own research and make your own decisions . I can only say that this worked for me and that my vet and Vidaltas manufacturer did agree it was ok *


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

Agree completely. As mentioned previously, 10mg of Vidalta is too high a dose for a T4 of 70 so not surprising to hear Bertie is being sick since essentially this is due to overdosing. In fact, if I recall correctly the manufacturers actually suggest an alternative medication if T4 is fairly low, though as Valerie has correctly pointed out they have also conceded that cutting the meds if OK. Chrissy I'd definitely speak to the vets about halving the daily dose ie cutting the tablet. I'm fairly sure you'll see symptoms resolve. You have to be really careful with excess hyperT meds and the potential risk to kidneys in older animals if they go _hypo_thyroid as a result.

Valerie-you're absolutely right about vets not recognizing the importance of a low-dose start regardless of the T4 on diagnosis despite all the expert recommendations.


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

Ianthi said:


> Agree completely. As mentioned previously, 10mg of Vidalta is too high a dose for a T4 of 70 so not surprising to hear Bertie is being sick since essentially this is due to overdosing. In fact, if I recall correctly the manufacturers actually suggest an alternative medication if T4 is fairly low, though as Valerie has correctly pointed out they have also conceded that cutting the meds if OK. Chrissy I'd definitely speak to the vets about halving the daily dose ie cutting the tablet. I'm fairly sure you'll see symptoms resolve. You have to be really careful with excess hyperT meds and the potential risk to kidneys in older animals if they go _hypo_thyroid as a result.
> 
> Valerie-you're absolutely right about vets not recognizing the importance of a low-dose start regardless of the T4 on diagnosis despite all the expert recommendations.


Very true , in fact , my old vet did not even re-test (or even suggest) retesting my Black , despite my repeated visits saying he wasn't doing well :mad2::mad2:

I now have a lovely new vet who does not seem to mind (or should i say ,she tolerates ) my endless questions and researching :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

Hi All

Thanks for your input.

The starting dose of Vidalta is meant to be 15mg, which is what the vet has prescribed. However I do notice from the datasheet that it says _Consideration could be given to a starting dose of Vidalta 10 mg daily where the TT4 concentration is only mildly increased, e.g. between 50 nmol/L and 100 nmol/L._

If I remember correctly the last time he was on Vidalta it was the 10mg and we didnt have any problems with that (his T4 levels were higher than on this occasion). Definitely a case of an overdose on this occasion 

Ive spoken with the vet and we are going to switch to the Felimazole today (which is of course twice daily administration rather than once with Vidalta). Im hoping that will help.

Will give that a go and then if thats a problem perhaps go back to the Vidalta at the lower dose and maybe even split the tablet to cut the dose down further after speaking with my vet. Trial and error I guess!

Hope to get on top of things soon, poor Bertie and poor me (not that I matter as much as Bertie!). Im on constant cleaning duties, several wees and poops and piles of sick per day to find and clean up not to mention lack of sleep as the vomiting is at night! I have a very "fragrant" house at the moment!

Thanks valeriewhiteside for the link to the support group, I'll visit that now.


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

You are most welcome  It's a great group , lots of extremely knowledgeable people on there :thumbup:

I hope Bertie feels better soon


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

Hi everyone

I popped up to the vets to get the Felimazole and had a chat with my vet about cutting the 15 mg Vidalta in half. He's agreed that we give that a go (primarily to save Bertie the indignity of twice a day dosing). So Ive bought a pill splitter and tonights dose will be half a 15mg tablet. If he tolerates the 7.5mg dose well move onto the 10mg dose, see how that settles and then check his bloods for effectiveness.

He did confirm that Felimazole is better tolerated than Vidalta but the downside is the twice per day administration.

Given Bertie doesnt want to be at home (still prefers the neighbours garden!) Im wary of upsetting him more than necessary i.e. twice a day administration of medication.

Currently Im letting Bertie have four hours out of the house (which he is spending in the neighbours wooden cat house!). After his allotted time out, I go and collect him. 

Im very annoyed to note that for the past two days there is a bowl of wet cat food in their garden. 

When I questioned them feeding their cat outside previously they told me they dont feed their cat outside; the episode of feeding outside was leftovers put down for the birds. Ive asked them not to feed Bertie but obviously, my request has fallen on deaf ears. Im going to have to speak to them again tomorrow. There is no way Bertie needs to come home if he has food at their house (& a dry/warm cat house to sleep in). Im so cross!

Clearly Bertie needs some outside time (for his mental wellbeing) but equally he needs to come home to eat/sleep and have his medication and health monitored. At least if they arent feeding him then their garden has less to offer than home i.e. food! At this rate, he has no reason to bother coming here and the downside is hes getting hard to catch in their garden, runs when he sees me coming to collect him.

I dont want to confine him, Im happy to make our back garden cat safe but it is cold/damp weather so dont really want him lingering outside anyway, Id rather he was content in our house!


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

ChrissyP said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> I popped up to the vets to get the Felimazole and had a chat with my vet about cutting the *15 mg Vidalta in half*. He's agreed that we give that a go (primarily to save Bertie the indignity of twice a day dosing). So Ive bought a pill splitter and tonights dose will be half a 15mg tablet. If he tolerates the 7.5mg dose well move onto the 10mg dose, see how that settles and then check his bloods for effectiveness.


Chrissy I honestly thought I'd misread this at first! I find it incredible that Bertie was prescribed the 15mg and not the 10mg I assumed all along which I thought was high enough given the low T4 level. No wonder he was ill. Reckon the Yahoo group will be in shock when you tell them this!  You can always revert to halving the 10mg if he doesn't respond though I'd be inclined to request vets to change the meds to this now. 10mg of Vidalta ( carbimazole ) roughly equates with 6mg of methimazole ( Felimazole ) in case you need to compare the two. The recommended starting dose ( low start basis ) is 2.5 of methimazole.

Hope you get neighbours sorted soon! Perhaps as weather gets colder he'll be less inclined to sleeping in their garden.


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## kathyj (Aug 14, 2011)

My cat was on Felimazole. He was started on 1 x 5mg tablet twice (the orange tablet) a day, then reduced to 2 tablets one day, 1 the next, and then down to just 1 x 5mg tablet once a day, which I always gave him in the morning. He was on this dose for probably 4 - 5 years until I lost him a year ago at the age of 20. 

I just wanted to let you know that I think it is ok to have a cat on a once a day dose of Felimazole, if that is what suits him best. 

Unfortunately I can't remember any of his T4 readings, but he was tested regularly, and he was being kept well within the acceptable levels.

However, it sounds like your poor Bertie has been set on a very high dose of Vidalta. So hopefully of his reduced dose, things will settle down for him. Good luck.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

ChrissyP said:


> Im very annoyed to note that for the past two days there is a bowl of wet cat food in their garden. When I questioned them feeding their cat outside previously they told me they dont feed their cat outside; the episode of feeding outside was leftovers put down for the birds. Ive asked them not to feed Bertie but obviously, my request has fallen on deaf ears. Im going to have to speak to them again tomorrow. There is no way Bertie needs to come home if he has food at their house (& a dry/warm cat house to sleep in). Im so cross!
> 
> 
> > I'm not surprised you're cross, I would be too :mad2:
> ...


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

Hi chillminx, kathyj & Ianthi

Yes, on further investigation it would appear that the 15mg dose was way over the top, lucky that no harm (I hope) was done.

Last night I decided to give him ¼ of the 15mg. Im hypothyroid myself and I remember when I started the Levothyroxine the dose was built up in increments so based on that principle I thought Id start with a much smaller dose. Pleased to say Bertie was not sick at all during the evening/night. 

Thanks for the tip about the equivalent dose when using Felimazole and the useful information about the possibility of once a day dosing.

Just been to get Bertie back from the neighbours and found him tucking into the bowl of cat food (with gusto). Needless to say I knocked on the door and had a stern word.

The story is now that they put food out for their cat (remember that was the first story then it changed to food for the birds!). Apparently, when they go out they put their cat out and a bowl of food. Their garden has two lovely wooden cat houses, I wondered why there were too in a small garden with only one resident cat, but now Im wondering if the other one is for Bertie???

I think they are stupid in a naïve way; they are kindly folk but misguided. In our conversation, they once again said they were doing nothing to encourage Bertie. I then pointed out that a cat house and a bowl of food not to mention a fuss WAS encouragement!!! I told them he was now on a special diet and wouldnt eat it because he was full by the time he came home! They said they wouldnt leave any food down now  we shall see.

Im feeling pretty low, Id like to keep him in 24/7 but after the extended confinement, he was going insane, however letting him out results in them encouraging his AWOL behaviour. Getting him home today was the hardest its been. Practically had to scruff him, he was all claws and an acrobatic routine to get out of my hold. Previously he came to call and let me pick him up and carry him home snuggled in my arms, that then went to having to chase after him and now hes resisting with force.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

I feel very sympathetic for you and the struggle you are having. 

If your neighbours are basically kindly folk but naive then my advice would to keep on and on at them, day after day, until they get the message. Really drum it in to them that Bertie must not be allowed to eat any food except the special diet provided for him at home, and that their catfood is making him sick! (Would they be willing to share Bertie's vet bills with you as a result of him getting sick from eating their catfood???!)

They can't be that nice anyway if their own poor cat is shut out of the house whilst they are out, and has to have its food left out for hours for flies and wasps to walk on, birds to peck at it, or neighbours cats (such as your Bertie) to scoff! (I mean surely they could just shut their cat and its food into one room of their house whilst they are out, then they wouldn't be creating this problem for you).

What are these 'nice warm cathouses' your neighbour has? I have not come across anything like that....maybe they are specially made? Perhaps you could buy one, or get someone to make you one for Bertie and put it in your garden? Then when you let him out of the house he might sleep in your wooden cathouse instead of next door's. You could take his food out to him, and treats. Then he might see how much better off he is in his own garden. And you would be able to see him and feel reassured. 

I have to say my own hyperthyroid cat continued to like a much cooler temperature than we kept the house in winter, even when her thyroid levels stabilised on Felimazole. She used to sit outdoors for hours on end in cold weather, very still on the trunk of a willow tree in our garden, watching for field mice.

Best of luck. Keep up the pressure


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

Hi chillminx

Thanks for your post.

Im not having much luck with the neighbours (they are in the next street, not exactly neighbours as such).

The past couple of days when Ive been to collect Bertie from their garden Ive noticed that they are putting the tinned cat food directly on the grass i.e. not in a bowl. Im assuming that this is so I dont notice the food as its hidden in the grass.

I dont feel I can say much more as I dont want to risk alienating them. After all Im relying on their cooperation to let me go onto their property to collect Bertie. Without their permission, I assume Id be trespassing.

Im going to have to keep Bertie in again much to his misery.

Despite reducing the dose of Vidalta hes still vomiting during the night (froth only most of the time). Im going to speak to the vet today for some anti-emetics and then get him to run some more bloods at the end of the month (if not before). 

Hes hardly eating which is a concern (I know hes had their food so I cant tell but as hes pooing in the house, I can see only a very small volume of faeces being produced).

He is weeing a lot (as this is also in the house too!) Im wondering if the thyroid issue is/was masking a kidney problem, as the wee (when I mop it up) is pale and not that smelly.

On a brighter note, he is choosing to sleep on me for part of the night so is obviously not feeling as hot as he was.

If you do a search for cat houses, youll find examples of what they have. We used to have a cat house for Bertie in our back garden but he gave up sleeping in it and preferred a shrub by our front door. 

Thanks for the info. on your dear cat, sounds like she was happy on field mice watch!


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## kathyj (Aug 14, 2011)

I know it is along shot, and not sure if you have tried this already. But could you tell a little white lie, and tell the nieghbours that Bertie can only eat special food - prescription food from the vets - and that if he eats other foods this could make him very ill. 

It could be that if Bertie does have a kidney problem, you will have to do exactly that anyway, but obviously I hope he doesn't have any other health issues to deal with. 

I must admit that after all you have asked them, I would be really mad at them as they seem to be ignoring your pleas.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Extend the little white lie to the vet being able to determine if Bertie has been eating the wrong food, and that you will sue the neighbours for ALL bertie's vet bills of the past 6 months and all bills to come, and set the police onto them, if his condition turns out to be due to their feeding him.


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

Chrissy - Sorry to hear of the ongoing saga with the neighbours. Sounds _very_ frustrating though I agree it's best not to alienate them.

The froth you describe is most likely stomach acid which forms on an empty stomach and makes cats feel nauseated so I'd try feeding Bertie last thing at night.

Yes, since uncontrolled hyperthyroidism can mask existing kidney problems ( (combined with the dilute urine ) renal issues _may_ also be an issue ( another reason for a low dose start of meds owing to impact on them ) so I agree about having a full blood panel. How were his renal values last time? This would give you some indication of how likely this is. However, excessive urination can also be a symptom of the condition itself.

Bertie is still on the 1/4 Vidalta?


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

kathyj said:


> I know it is along shot, and not sure if you have tried this already. But could you tell a little white lie, and tell the nieghbours that Bertie can only eat special food - prescription food from the vets - and that if he eats other foods this could make him very ill.


I've already told them that  Not an absolute lie as I did buy him some Hills a/d to try to tempt his appetite. He won't eat it though, takes a lick but gives up. He's not really eating much at all. Even the neighbours cat food it licked, he's eating the gravy/jelly but not the meaty chunks.


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

Ianthi said:


> The froth you describe is most likely stomach acid which forms on an empty stomach and makes cats feel nauseated so I'd try feeding Bertie last thing at night.


He's got fresh food available 24/7 but he's not really eating so not really an option to get him to eat last thing at night. He's just turning his nose up at everything. I've tried putting food in his mouth but he spits it out.



Ianthi said:


> Yes, since uncontrolled hyperthyroidism can mask existing kidney problems (combined with the dilute urine ) renal issues _may_ also be an issue ( another reason for a low dose start of meds owing to impact on them) so I agree about having a full blood panel. How were his renal values last time? This would give you some indication of how likely this is. However, excessive urination can also be a symptom of the condition itself.
> 
> Bertie is still on the 1/4 Vidalta?


The renal panels were good; really good when he was tested at the time the T4's were tested.

Bertie is still on the 1/4 Vidalta but having spoken to the vet this morning we are stopping that for a couple of days from today to give him a medication break and see what happens with the vomiting/appetite. He's not given me the anti-emetic, wants to try stopping the Vidalta for a couple of days first.


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## kathyj (Aug 14, 2011)

Does Bertie seem ok in other ways? ie his general condition, like his coat. Is he washing himself ok. Does he ask for food, and then not eat it. The reason I ask, is that I had a cat who had just started thyroid medication, and she seemed to go downhill - she was demanding food and not eating it, and her coat started looking shabby, and she had always been very clean. But then her mouth and nose started getting messy and after initially stopping the medication, incase she was one of the very few cats that was allergic to it, I thought the stress etc had caused her catflu virus to emerge (she had it as a young cat, despite being vacinated). but after being treated for catflu and still not improving, it turned out she had a growth under her tongue - which sadly was inoperable, and I had to have her put to sleep. Anoyingly, I had mentioned the possiblility of a mouth problem to the vet before, but they had not seen anything to cause them any concern, but had not looked under her tongue. But that is another story.

I just hope that the thyroid issue isn't clouding what else could be going on, aside from a potential kidney problem, but as her kidneys showed themselves to ok in your recent blood test, hopefully this is not the problem. 

It could be that she just has a mouth problem in general, like a sore tooth, hopefully nothing more serious than that.

Sorry for the longwinded reply.


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

Hi kathyj

Sorry to hear about your poor girl going through everything then the cat flu and then finding the growth under her tongue, how unfair and very sad.

Bertie is not him self, hard to describe really but just looking jaded. He seems to lie down gingerly and has a pained expression on his face.

He&#8217;s def. lost weight, he is not a big cat and has never been fat but now his loins are sunken and I can feel his pelvic bones when I stroke him.

His coat is a bit stark and I&#8217;ve not seen him grooming, he is clean though, no discharges or secretions in relevant places. I haven&#8217;t looked in his mouth since starting treatment but prior to that his teeth were fine and there were no obvious mouth problems. Will take a good look tomorrow in the day light.

He&#8217;s not demanding food at all, with the exception of his nightly bedtime treat. As he sleeps on our bed, we have his goodies in the bedroom. When I get into bed he looks at where the treats are and then looks at me to say &#8220;hurry up with the treat. He eats that fine! However although he&#8217;s keen for it he&#8217;s not demanding. Before he would jump up the wall, jump on the bed, and stalk me around the bedroom etc. until I got the treats. Now he just looks between them and me and patiently waits.

I&#8217;ve kept him in all day today and he&#8217;s rested and only moved around to pee around the house. He&#8217;s had a few mouthfuls of food but not a lot. 

I have updated my vet and he said we&#8217;ll speak again in two days (I&#8217;ll probably take Bertie into see the vet anyway but would rather chat first than upset Bertie with a vet visit) and see what the next thing to do is. My vet wants him off the Vidalta for a couple of days to see if that changes anything i.e. rule in or out the Vidalta as a cause of the issues.

ETA, he's eaten a good late supper of 1/2 can Hills a/d and about 30 cat treat biscuits


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

Chrissy-Sorry thought Bertie wasn't eating at home owing to food at neighbour's house. How is his appetite now? I would not have thought that 3.75mg of Vidalta would cause this level of inappetence. Furthermore he appears to have tolerated a larger dose well first time round.

Hmm....He sounds in pain to me Chrissy and I would take him back to the vets for a good physical exam, especially his kidneys. I'm trying to work out how many days he was on the 15mg. Have you noticed any increased drinking at all? I'm also wondering if he's dehydrated as this would cause inappetence.

Don't forget though that true renal values are only revealed once the T4 is in normal range, in cats with pre-existing kidney disease. When T4 is elevated the values appear better than they actually are because the increased bloodflow caused by the uncontrolled HyperT actually 'benefits' them. Conversely then the T4 is too low owing to overmedication for one thing, the inevitable decrease of bloodflow can have the opposite effect and lead to problems. The relationship between the two can be a bit of a medical balancing act.

Of course I hope Bertie doesn't have pre-existing kidney disease but with older animals there's bound to be _some_ deterioration.

Hope he improves now he's off medication completely though I think it might be best to resume treatment with 10mg tabs 1/4d as it's not a good idea to leave it uncontrolled for very long owing to high BP etc.


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

Hi Ianthi

No Bertie wasnt eating at home (well very little) because I assumed he was eating the neighbours food. However, he was only out of the house for 4 hrs per day (daytime) before being brought home. He hasnt been eating much here in the remaining 20 hrs and unless he was pooing for England during the 4 hrs out of the house the poos here have been miniscule, producing about 2  3 thumbnail size lumps thats why I think hes not been eating much.

He hasnt been allowed out since Saturday. Yesterday after stopping the Vidalta for 24 hrs he ate OK, not masses but more than Ive seen and consequently produced about 6 thumbnail sized lumps of poo this morning (sorry to be so graphic!)

He was on the 15mg Vidalta for 13 days, the reduced dose for four days and nothing yesterday or planned for today.

Up until yesterday, his water consumption was normal. Yesterday he drank quite a bit including during the night and so far today. There was no water in the neighbours garden so unless he was drinking puddles during the 4 hrs out of the house the only water was here and until yesterday he drank normally.

The funny thing is that he has been weeing a lot (all around the house), this stated a couple of weeks before the diagnosis of the thyroid (yet I didnt observe him drinking lots). Assumed it was a behaviour issue linked to wanting to be out at the neighbours. As Im cleaning up all the time its hard to count how many wees in 24 hrs but there must be at least 5, if he goes on the puppy mat (rare) then the puddle is the size of a small dinner plate.

I mentioned the kidneys to my vet but he (might be wrong of course!) seemed to think that the results were too good so even allowing for the T4 elevation masking the effects the kidneys were unlikely to be the problem.

Im going to pop Bertie up to the vets today and also get them to test for diabetes as increased drinking/vomiting can be a sign of that too.

BTW, Bertie wasnt sick at all during the night!


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## kathyj (Aug 14, 2011)

I really hope you can get to the bottom of this soon. It is possible that he found an outside source of water. It's amazing what they will drink from outside - you would think they wouldn't touch it because it is dirty etc, and prefer to drink nice clean fresh water inside, but cats are a law unto themselves sometimes. I guess you would notice if he was drinking from a dripping tap (if you had one), but there is always the toilet, which some cats seem to like drinking from.

But you have probably ruled out these additional sources.

Kathy


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

Thanks Kathy 

Couldn't get an appointment today with one of the partners so taking Bertie tomorrow afternoon. Will let you know how he gets on.


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

ChrissyP said:


> ..
> I mentioned the kidneys to my vet but he (might be wrong of course!) seemed to think that the results were too good so even allowing for the T4 elevation masking the effects the kidneys were unlikely to be the problem.
> 
> Im going to pop Bertie up to the vets today and also get them to test for diabetes as increased drinking/vomiting can be a sign of that too.
> ...


If the dose was much smaller ie 1/4 yes, I would agree with your vet.
However what he isn't taking into account is the fact that Bertie was on 15mg for 13 days and given the relatively low T4 on diagnosis, the chances are at some point during that time he was actually *hypo*thyroid, which I've no doubt would impact on renal function - in some instances this status, especially if prolonged can result in damage to kidneys, unless IV fluids are administered fairly quickly.

However, in case you think I'm trying to scare you, I'm only writing this as a point in fact because based on what you've written this doesn't appear to to be any significant damage - Bertie would be much more poorly if this were the case! On the other hand what is essentially an overdose of this medication is potentially quite dangerous and should be avoided at all costs because the sad fact is some cats do not recover and have lasting residual damage! Vidalta for this reason isn't very popular on the Yahoo HyperT group. The low-dose start is always preferable in order to give the organs time to adjust to the reduced metabolic rate thus avoiding that sudden drop for reasons outlined above!

Good luck with vet visit!


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## kathyj (Aug 14, 2011)

ChrissyP said:


> Thanks Kathy
> 
> Couldn't get an appointment today with one of the partners so taking Bertie tomorrow afternoon. Will let you know how he gets on.


Good luck for you and Bertie.


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

Ianthi said:


> If the dose was much smaller ie 1/4 yes, I would agree with your vet.
> However what he isn't taking into account is the fact that Bertie was on 15mg for 13 days and given the relatively low T4 on diagnosis, the chances are at some point during that time he was actually *hypo*thyroid, which I've no doubt would impact on renal function - in some instances this status, especially if prolonged can result in damage to kidneys, unless IV fluids are administered fairly quickly.
> 
> However, in case you think I'm trying to scare you, I'm only writing this as a point in fact because based on what you've written this doesn't appear to to be any significant damage - Bertie would be much more poorly if this were the case! On the other hand what is essentially an overdose of this medication is potentially quite dangerous and should be avoided at all costs because the sad fact is some cats do not recover and have lasting residual damage! Vidalta for this reason isn't very popular on the Yahoo HyperT group. The low-dose start is always preferable in order to give the organs time to adjust to the reduced metabolic rate thus avoiding that sudden drop for reasons outlined above!
> ...


Hi Ianthi

Thanks for your valuable input. I can only but agree with your comments and Im sorry that Bertie was/has been placed at risk by the high dose Vidalta.

Hopefully due to the sickness he didnt absorb the whole dose when he was on the 15mg amount.

When the vet said the kidneys were good he was basing that on the results when Bertie was tested at the same time as the T4 i.e. before starting the Vidala.

As you mention, I would think that if damage had been done to Berties kidneys due to the shock to his system of the high dose of Vidalta relative to the only slightly elevated T4 he would be extremely poorly now. Ive had a dog that was PTS due to renal failure and the symptoms were terrible (no choice but to PTS). Thankfully, Bertie is not mimicking those symptoms.

Bertie has had no Vidalta for two days now (this would be the 3rd day) and Im pleased to say hes perked up. Coat is sleekly groomed, hes eating more (not as much as Id like but more than he was) and hes content. He is still drinking too much though so we shall see what the vet says about that. Obviously Ill have to start him on medication tonight for the thyroid but guess that will be the Felimazole as even at the low dose the Vidalta didnt seem to suit him if the vomiting and lack of appetite was anything to judge.


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

kathyj said:


> Good luck for you and Bertie.


Thank you, everyone has been most supportive. You are all brilliant


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

Berties been to the vets tonight and has a good examination and full blood test. On the physical exam he was fine, mouth OK, kidneys feel normal etc. The vet commented on how bright he looked i.e. bright eyed and bushy tailed.

I saw the blood results and all were good including renal function and glucose, liver enzymes are slightly elevated but apparently only at top end of normal and to be expected due to the thyroid issue.

The vet agreed that it was the Vidalta making him poorly and said hed had a couple of other cats displaying similar symptoms on the Vidalta. Weve now started him on 2.5mg Felimazole b.i.d

Fingers crossed that does the job and he settles down.


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## kathyj (Aug 14, 2011)

All sounds good. Fingers crossed with the felimazole. Unless things have changed, the 2.5 is the smallest dose. Is Bertie just having one tablet a day or two?


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

Hi Kathy

Betie is having two tablets per day. 

It did cross my mind to just give the one, however he was fine last night after the first dose, no sickness etc. and as he skipped two days of medication (& had started to look a little wild eyed/restless) I thought I'd better give one this morning and see how he looked during the day and then think about whether to drop to one a day for a few days before increasing to two if needed.

He'll be blood tested again in 3 weeks, if the T4's are appropriate I may then switch to just one per day.

My vet was quite open minded about the treatment regime, said we'd dose Bertie based on his behaviour/appearance/symptoms.


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## kathyj (Aug 14, 2011)

ChrissyP said:


> Hi Kathy
> 
> Betie is having two tablets per day.
> 
> ...


So far so good. Long may it continue. I think I mentioned earlier, my cat was on a 5mg dose, which he had as one tablet every morning. And all went well for the durration that he was on the tablets (some 4 -5 years).

I am glad your vet is being open minded about things. The thing is with animals is that they don't understand why they need the tablets, and you end up having to fit in with them as best you can. And just hope that it is enough. I went with the once a day because my cat was always a bugger for frothing up tablets - he would look like he had rabies or something. So, at that time I thought it best to try and go for once a day and keep him as stress free as possible, as he also used to suffer with urinary blockage which can be brought on by stress. Thankfully for him it worked, so I hope it all works out for you and Bertie too.


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

Hi everyone,

Can I pick your brains?

Bertie was sick at teatime. Do you think I should give him his second pill (2.5mg twice daily) or leave him until tomorrow?

Do you think 2.5mg twice daily is too much for him?

Thanks, Chrissy x


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## kathyj (Aug 14, 2011)

I'm sorrry, I don't really know. Did he keep the earlier pill down or was that brought up when he was sick? Do you have an emergency vet you could just ring and speak too,without actually taking Bertie to see them. Maybe they could advise. I think because of Berties history of being sick, and with it being a possibility that it was down to the medication (Vidalta), I would probably be nervous that he is going to be the same with Felimazole as he has just been sick, and might be tempted to leave it and wait to see what the vet says. But obviously the longer his condition is being untreated, the more chances of the other complictions emerging, ie high blood pressure which can lead to detached retina leading to blindness, heart. 

Sorry not to be much help on this.:001_unsure:


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

ChrissyP said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Can I pick your brains?
> 
> ...


Just catching up here.

Yes. Given Bertie's low T4 especially, though I'd advocate it anyway, I would halve it and give 1.25mg twice daily. Felimazole only lasts for 12 hours and it best divided into two doses.

Hope no sickness from now on.


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

Thanks Kathy and Ianthi 

Bertie brought no pill back, he had the pill at 10am and was sick at teatime. I'll half the pills and give twice daily to see how he gets on.

It's a pain that the medication seems to make him sick, don't want to go back to the constant sickness that occurred with the Vidalta as he seemed poorly just from the nausea and constant vomitting etc. Once I stopped the Vidalta (obviously not good from the T4 level point of view) he perked up so don't want him going down hill either from the over active thyroid or contant sickness. Somehow I've got to find the right balance for him.


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## kathyj (Aug 14, 2011)

Fingers crossed and good luck. Will catch up with you on Sunday, as away for the weekend.


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

I have to agree with Ianthi , 1.25mg x 2 would be a better starting point i believe  My little Black used to have a quarter of a 10mg Vidalta and that was as much as he could tolerate without sickness and significant appetite loss . This dose controlled his hyperT just fine too :thumbup:

Vidalta worked best for me as Black was too hard to pill twice a day which you really must do if on Felimazole as it only lasts 12 hours . otherwise , Bertie will be a bit up and down 

I really think the dose is the problem here , i've seen it before , i don't understand why vets advocate such a high starting dose 

hope this helps xx


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

Vomiting is a classic sign of overdosing and considering the HyperT essentially must be treated, it's something you wish to avoid for that reason as well.

I know exactly what you mean Valerie about the high starting doses vets _continue_ to prescribe! Apart from all else I'm sure they've seen evidence as to why this is not good practice.


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

I presume the high starting dose is based on the availability of the drug dose i.e. the smallest dose of Vidalta is 10mg and the smallest for the Felimazole is 2.5mg. 

The vets are (again I presume) guided by the drug manufacturer. One presumes (a lot of presumptions!!) that the drug manufacturer has tested the product for dosage efficacy/tolerance/side effects etc. and based on that they have formulated the dosages and vets are prescribing according to the drug manufacturers recommendations (which would be something they do with most drugs).

I guess with all things there is room for adaptation based on personal experience. When Bertie first went hyperT he was stabilised for a month before surgery with 10mg Vidalta. He tolerated that fine, no problems. This time around even the reduced dose of 2.5mg Vidalta didnt sit well with him. Who knows why??

Ive given him ½ a 2.5mg Felimazole this morning and will repeat tonight and continue that dose until the next blood test. Hopefully it will have stabilized him even though its at a reduced dose, if not then I guess Ill have to up the dose to the recommended 2.5mg twice daily. Just trying to strike a balance, he went down hill with the vomiting and lack of appetite so hope not to go there again.


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

The general consensus with Vidalta is that it's OK for use with higher T4 readings but not really suitable for lower ones. At this stage for this reason, I'm quite surprised the manufacturers haven't produced a 5mg tablet though I suppose if they permit splitting the dose then they may fail to see the need!

Also there appears to be enormous variation in the feline response to HyperT meds in terms of what's required to stabilise them-some appearing to be more 'sensitive' than others.

Hope Bertie does better now!


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

Hi All

Just a quick update!

Bertie is fine on 1.25mg Felimazole, no sickness and appears fit and well. Too early to blood test for his T4's but by appearance/behaviour he's doing well.

Still on 24/7 "house arrest" due to the neighbours irresponsible behaviour and sadly still peeing and pooping at will all around the house but we are just having to live with that!

Thanks for all your help and support.

xx


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## kathyj (Aug 14, 2011)

That's great news. Just a shame about his toilet habits - don't suppose he is going to change now, but you never know.


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

It's been a while since I posted about Bertie so I thought I'd update you.

Bertie has been stable on the Felimazole which is great news. Toilet habits around the house haven't improved but thats not a worry, dont mind cleaning up and he certainly isnt bothered by his actions.

He's been back and forth to the vets as despite the Felimazole (& no symptoms of hyper T) he's not really been himself since the diagnosis of hyper T.

Sadly, after more testing we have found a large tumour in his abdomen. My vets say it's not treatable. However, he's on steroids and has perked up no end, back to his old self. We won't have him with us much longer but whilst the steroids are keeping him so well and hes certainly happy, content, eating, loving and in no pain we shall keep going for a while longer.


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## kathyj (Aug 14, 2011)

I am so sorry to hear this. I hope that for however long he has left, that he is happy. Lots of hugs.


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

Thanks Kathy for your kind words and the hug (going to need that hug!)

Chris


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

Oh no! Chrissy-I'm ever so sorry to hear this. I've a feeling also that you've found the cause of his inappropriate toileting habits as inflammation/discomfort issues can also be responsible in some cases. 

Hopefully the steroids will keep it at bay for as long as possible. Did vets mention where it's located exactly?


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

Hi Ianthi

Thanks for your message.

Yes, you are right that the toilet habits are probably linked to the problem.

When I took Bertie to the vets, in their opinion he was too unwell for sedation (for X ray) so his tummy was palpated only. 

The vet didn't say what the tumour was attached too only that it was in the abdomen. From where their hands where when they palpated it appeared the tumour was high up i.e. just below the ribs area rather than towards the tail end. Guess that could be near his stomach.

Being Christmas I saw one of the junior vets but my vet (partner) called in to the surgery and he palpated and said the same thing.

He hadn't been pooping either (not eating) so naturally I asked if perhaps it was constipation. They said no, it was irregular shaped and poo would have felt different.

Since the steroid, hes been quite well, best hes been since before the Hyper T diagnosis. Hes eating well and doing a lot of healthy looking poo! I suspect their diagnosis is correct, however seeing the amount of poo and the texture etc. hes def. not constipated now!

He was running a high temp. so he had a Convenia jab also. Im (clinging to hope) wondering if he was poorly with a bug hence high temp. and constipated (not eating or drinking as feeling ill) and perhaps they are wrong.

Well have to see how he is when the steroids wear off, they gave him a long acting jab rather than tablets with a view to being PTS when the steroid declines (if he declines at the same time).


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

I am sorry to hear the vet's diagnosis for your old boy.
If he is doing well on the steroid I am sure it will be possible to put him onto tablets longer term. Prednisolone is very cheap and is a tiny tablet so pretty easy to administer. Steroids can keep some tumours in check for a fairly long time and are relatively safe for longer term use ( danger of diabetes but I would not be worrying about that at this stage)


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

Thanks PaddyPaws.

It's been a about 2 weeks since Bertie had the long acting steroid and he's still doing well. 

I've been up to the vets today and collected some oral Prednisolone to start next week. They have suggested to start on 2.5mg per day and see how he goes.

He's a happy chap at the moment, long may that continue


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

How is Bertie now? Thought originally the mass was in lower digestive tract hence the connection to the toileting problems.

Hmm.....how is his weight since tumours can cause weight loss? Also interesting he had a high temperature which points to infection. Can't help feeling it would be helpful to know exactly what you're dealing with here since as you know not all masses are malignant. Based on location you describe it sound like liver ( though often bloodwork doesn't reveal any problems until damage is advanced ) spleen, or stomach, though again would expect some vomiting to be evident. 

Wonder what another physicial examination might reveal? Though of course if tumour present then use of steroids would be helping to shrink it.


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## ChrissyP (Oct 16, 2011)

Bertie seems fine  thanks for asking.

The vet didnt say exactly where the mass was. I asked where it was and their reply was in the stomach. I said did they mean in his stomach and they replied no, but attached to one of his internal organs. When I watched them palpate his abdomen (from ribcage backwards) they seemed to settle their hands not far below his ribcage. 

Not sure if the toileting problems were linked to the mass or just coincidental. Hes certainly still toileting all over the house (like a behaviour problem) but hes doing good poops of normal consistency. At the time of the last examination he was constipated (defined by me as several days without passing faeces and when he finally did they were hard, small pellets).

The last full blood panel was 16th November and all was good, nothing showing up on the bloods.

There is no vomiting; the last time he vomited was when he was introduced to the Vidalta. After stopping the Vidalta he hasnt vomited since.

Yes, he lost a little weight between 16th November and 27th December. However, that may have been due to the 10 days or so of inappetance and vomiting whilst on the Vidalta.

Ive not weighed him since 27th December, however hes looking quite filled out (probably the steroids!), and certainly looks like the weight loss has been replaced. His coat is glossy and well groomed and he appears happy. Plenty of interaction with me, loving etc. 

Hes like his old self pre Hyper T and pre this issue. Hes given up the frantic obsessive desire to be out of the house (in the neighbours garden) and has been content around the house and hasnt stepped outside since Christmas Day. The only thing that continues is the inappropriate toileting and the slightly increased thirst (that might be because hes eating more dry kibble as well as tinned so hes more thirsty.)

The high temp. does perhaps imply there was infection present. As you know, Bertie was not happy at home so we were following the routine of letting him out (he went straight to the neighbours garden) for 2  3 hrs a day before I went and walked him home. He wouldnt let me pick him up but came to me and followed alongside me as I walked home. 

On the 25th Dec, the neighbours came out to greet me when I went into their garden to call Bertie. They said they were worried about him as theyd heard coughing/spluttering sounds from the cat house he was residing in. I brought him home and he didnt cough/sneeze etc. I just kept an eye on him and he was OK, same as he had been, no sign he was unwell. However on Boxing Day I noticed a slight change in his eating habits so I took him to the vets on the 27th.

I asked the vet if we should do another T4 and blood work up but he said that not to bother with the T4 just yet. Simply because his behaviour was not typical hyper T and as his levels were only slightly elevated prior to treatment the low dose Felimazole was obviously working. He said hed prefer to monitor his behaviour at the moment as a guide to if and when to test the T4. 

I will take Bertie back to the vets in due course for another examination and full blood testing but as he appears so well (whether that was the fact there was an infection and the Convenia jab did its job or whether the steroids have shrunk the mass I dont know). 

As they said that at his age (& considering how frail he appeared at that time) they wouldnt operate I feel there is nothing to be gained at this very moment in time by stressing Bertie out with a vet visit etc.). He is old, but as he appears so well at the moment I feel its appropriate to take a watch and wait approach as from what they said there is nothing to be gained by finding out exactly what we are dealing with. Naturally I will look after him, keep him happy and comfortable and see what pans out with a view to ensuring that if he appears at all unwell I shall be straight back to the vets.


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## kathyj (Aug 14, 2011)

Good to hear that he is happy and has stopped his desire to go nextdoor. Long may it continue.


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