# Not A Very Good Day For The Government



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Labour held a vote in Parliament so that that Brexit Impact Assessments are released by the Government. The Government lost and they now have to release the assessments or be incontempt of Parliament.
http://news.sky.com/story/amp/government-loses-vote-on-publishing-brexit-impact-assessments-11108917

Sir Michael Fallon has resigned as defense secretary:








http://news.sky.com/story/sir-michael-fallon-resigns-as-defence-secretary-11108950


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Was Fallon pro-Brexit? is this a back door/spooks attempt at losing any Brexit vote oin Parliament?

Its quite obvious the halls of power wont let us leave the EU ever

its all a pantomine to appease the Brexit vote winners...whilst the no vote is orchestrated to defaet Brexit motions


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Colliebarmy said:


> Was Fallon pro-Brexit? is this a back door/spooks attempt at losing any Brexit vote oin Parliament?
> 
> Its quite obvious the halls of power wont let us leave the EU ever
> 
> its all a pantomine to appease the Brexit vote winners...whilst the no vote is orchestrated to defaet Brexit motions


I think this is heading towards a vote of no confidence towards Theresa May and her Government which will trigger a leadership challenge in the Conservative Party or/and a fresh General Election. I would be very surprised if Theresa May is still PM in the New Year.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Oh by the way the PM responded to Sir Michael Fallon's resignation letter with this letter:


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Colliebarmy said:


> Was Fallon pro-Brexit? is this a back door/spooks attempt at losing any Brexit vote oin Parliament?


No. He touched a journalists knee previously (15 years ago) and admitted unwelcome behaviour towards the female Journalist so thought the best course of action was to quit.

http://amp.theguardian.com/politics...or-victims-of-sexual-harassment-in-parliament

The journalist in question has responded saying his resignation is ridiculous and absurd as she didn't have any issues over this:

http://news.sky.com/story/sir-micha...touched-on-knee-by-defence-secretary-11108984


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

It's not just about the knee. He's one of the MP's on the redacted list for sexual misconduct, as are quite a few others.

As for the vote, so it should be, these things should not be covered up from the public, we deserve to know and understand what's happening to our nation.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

and who popped up when it all kicked off?

Diane Abbot


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

I think its a sad day for women. If the woman concered didnt have a problem with it she should have kept her mouth shut we all know what a witch hunt there is around any sniff of sexual misconduct these days.

I dont think this helps victims of genuine sexual attacks one bit if anything this whole me too rubbish trivialises it all.

So instead of the man doing his job and the country being run, everybody concentrates on the question, did he or did he not do wrong by touching her knee..
No wonder the place is going to hell in a handbasket.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

My honest opinion, and I have said this since these allegations against MP's recently started is why aren't the police investigating? Why aren't more MP's resigning or being sacked who have been implicated to have done these crimes? Members of the public would be arrested and investigated, sacked from their jobs and put on the sex offenders register or put in prison. Why are MP's outside of the law? They are in a position of trust and behaving like the law does not apply to them.

Men are also compaining of sexual advances from MP's so it's not just women.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

dorrit said:


> I think its a sad day for women. If the woman concered didnt have a problem with it she should have kept her mouth shut we all know what a witch hunt there is around any sniff of sexual misconduct these days.
> 
> I dont think this helps victims of genuine sexual attacks one bit if anything this whole me too rubbish trivialises it all.
> 
> ...


It's worse, there's more misconduct from him on the redacted list, including the fact that he's a drunk.

This knee thing is all just a distracting technique, but she's enhancing it by laughing about it being about her knee fifteen years ago.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

dorrit said:


> I dont think this helps victims of genuine sexual attacks one bit if anything this whole me too rubbish trivialises it all.


I disagree. One of the reasons that women don't report this kind of thing when it happens is being made to feel isolated and afraid. Afraid that no-one will believe them. Afraid of the repercussions of accusing someone in a powerful position. So other women coming forward and saying 'He did that to me too' gives all the victims encouragement to speak up. It does exactly the opposite of trivilising. It strengthens the claims.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

It’s all got bloody ridiculous, a friendly and reassuring touch on the knee, shoulder, back or wherever is now being taken as sexual harassment by certain people. I’ve had men and women do it to me and never thought of it more than body language.

The world has gone bloody ridiculous with any form of physical contact being objected to.

The worst part is who doesn’t just want a friendly hug from a college or friend every now and then in times of sorrow? That’s gone now. Progress indeed


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Sigh.....


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

I dont think pushing professional people to behave in a professional manner in their places of work, especially when they are in a position of power is a witch hunt, nor is it detracting away from victims of sexual assualt. It is however forcing a conversation, and forcing companies and institutions to FINALLY act on the reality, rather than say the right things and then continue to sweep it under the carpet in reality.

Behaving in a sexually agressive manner, or inappropriately whilst doing your job should not be the norm. It is not acceptable for anyone to have to put up with that sort of nonsense, and there should be an environment where it is acceptable to speak up without being dismissed or blamed.

As a woman in a male dominated work environment I am now in the fortunate position that it is unlikely for me to have to deal with these sort of things however "growing up" in it I was absolutely made to feel uncomfortable at work by men senior to me, and in a position of relative power.
It is demeaning and embarrassing, as a young woman at work, to have sexual innuendos directed at her by 50yr old men - or in my case being "helped" up ladders by my arse, touched under tables until I actively move myself away, having men as old as my father standing so close to me whilst I am working (hands full of tools and against a live Distribution board) that I can feel their semi-erection - its not easy as a 18yo girl to speak up to your superiors at work, or in front of a crowd of people (many of whom think its hilarious).

I was scared to speak up, through fear of being ostrocised by the men I had to work with everyday - or being moved away from my job (which did eventually happen - I told them to sort it out or I would leave - I was moved to an office role!)

In the most cases it wasn't sexual assault, it was however probably sexual harassment & grossly inappropriate and unfair on me. I never formally spoke up to HR, and 15 years on I am unlikely to. I have confronted some of the men who made my life miserably akward in the past few years who still see no problem with how they acted towards me. The best I can do now is act to protect the young women who are coming through the ranks to feel empowered enough to confront these people.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Nicely said, Grumpy Goby. And I've been in the same position and know exactly what you mean.

When I was 17 years old, I was working in a nursery that was attached to a school. The headmaster - who was in his 40s - used to try and get me alone so he could 'make advances' to me, to put it delicately. I didn't tell anyone cos I didn't think anyone would believe me. I just avoided him as much as I could.

When I was in my 20s I worked in a place where I was one of only three women. I put up with a daily barrage of comments about my clothes, my body, my breasts, whether or I not I 'put out'. Until the day one of the blokes tried to grab me between my legs, in front of his shopfloor colleagues, all of them laughing like it was all good fun. I hit him with a pipe and ran for it. He complained I'd hit him and I'm the one who got fired. I told the boss what had happened but everyone backed him up and not me. That taught me a valuable lesson. Men gang together and expecting it to be any different would be stupid.

Things gradually changed as I went through my thirties. Women's voices began to be heard a bit more, mainly because there were more women in power. But I still put up with a fair amount of 'banter'. And before anyone says it's just jokes, yeah sometimes it is. But sometimes it's a power play. Men who don't like women use 'banter' as a tool for embarrassment. They get a kick out of making women feel uncomfortable. And there's not much a woman can do to stop it because it's all 'fun' and 'oh he's just having a laugh. Don't be such a prude.' 

I'm proud that young women now are not going to have to go through what many women have gone through because companies and businesses are now having to listen to all the men and women saying 'this also happened to me.'


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Dr Pepper said:


> It's all got bloody ridiculous, a friendly and reassuring touch on the knee, shoulder, back or wherever is now being taken as sexual harassment by certain people. I've had men and women do it to me and never thought of it more than body language.
> 
> The world has gone bloody ridiculous with any form of physical contact being objected to.
> 
> The worst part is who doesn't just want a friendly hug from a college or friend every now and then in times of sorrow? That's gone now. Progress indeed


There is such a thing as intent.

I have been hugged/touched by men in both contexts and trust me there is a huge difference.

If you cant tell the difference between a sexual motive and an empathetic one then there is something wrong.

ETA: I would suggest if you dont know someone well enough that a hug could be misconstrued... then dont hug them! I have people and colleagues who could hug me no problem as I know them well enough for it to be appropriate but if some mild acquantance came up and hugged me I would probably be freaked out. Women dont owe your their physical contact.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

What's wrong with asking her if she wants a hug before you move in? Give her the choice. Don't just assume you are welcome.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Well from what I have been reading over the last few weeks and hearing on the news is that it is not just the UK Parliament this has been happening in, it is also happening in the EU Parliament as well as some MEP's have come forward claiming colleagues have been making inappropiate advances in them. I do believe Junker made a comment on this saying if they don't complain they can't do anything about it (or something to this effect). Sorry I didn't mean to deter away from what is happening in our own Parliament in the UK.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

It happens everywhere that some people hold power and other people don't.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

A person's body is their own, to do with as they alone like. It does not belong to someone else and is not there for anyone else's enjoyment/visual or physical pleasure.

If I do not wish to be touched by random people because I look nice, or because you enjoy it, or because you are a tactile person, it is my prerogative. My body does not belong to you, it belongs to me. I shouldn't have to withstand a touch I am uncomfortable with because YOU want to touch me. It is my body, it is not the world going mad.

It's like the whole thing black people have with people just wanting to touch their hair and they assume they just can. It's not yours to touch, their body and hair does not belong to you to do with as YOU please.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Mirandashell said:


> It happens everywhere that some people hold power and other people don't.


I tell you who is awful with it, and has bothered me for years, Eamon Holmes.

When they have women on modelling the clothes, he just strolls over and grabs them by the waist and clings onto them, with the women looking very uncomfortable, even the women in the background too. He sees a pretty girl he likes the look of and grabs at her.

The funny thing is, he always says he's a touchy feely person, but I've yet to see him have the same response to the male models on the show, or male guests.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Well either way it is disgusting we have these people in a position of power and trust and they are abusing this position and committing these kinds of crimes (they are crimes) and going unpunished as of yet, whilst members of the public would be arrested, investigated, lose their job and put in prison and/or on the sex offenders register. 

One rule for the elite and one rule for the everyday member of public. 

I also cannot believe that their is no mechanism/policies setup in Parliament to deal with this.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> A person's body is their own, to do with as they alone like. It does not belong to someone else and is not there for anyone else's enjoyment/visual or physical pleasure.
> 
> If I do not wish to be touched by random people because I look nice, or because you enjoy it, or because you are a tactile person, it is my prerogative. My body does not belong to you, it belongs to me. I shouldn't have to withstand a touch I am uncomfortable with because YOU want to touch me. It is my body, it is not the world going mad.
> 
> It's like the whole thing black people have with people just wanting to touch their hair and they assume they just can. It's not yours to touch, their body and hair does not belong to you to do with as YOU please.


God the hair thing would be creepy. I am white, but had a 60yo man stand behind me whilst i was at a PC and STROKE my hair one day in the office whilst he was talking to someone sitting opposite me... like WTF??? I did stand up and declare I was a cat, and he never did it again, but he was creepily tactile for a guy I only spoke to on a very rare occasion. I am glad that was a one off thing.

Bleugh.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

I've had loads of blokes say 'smile!' to me. But once I did reply. 

Him - You'd look much prettier if you smiled
Me - You'd look much prettier if you were Brad Pitt but that ain't happening either. 

Then I walked off quick leaving him gaping at me.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

grumpy goby said:


> God the hair thing would be creepy. I am white, but had a 60yo man stand behind me whilst i was at a PC and STROKE my hair one day in the office whilst he was talking to someone sitting opposite me... like WTF??? I did stand up and declare I was a cat, and he never did it again, but he was creepily tactile for a guy I only spoke to on a very rare occasion. I am glad that was a one off thing.
> 
> Bleugh.


As a naturally curly haired child, I have experienced a lot with my hair, people assuming they could 'boing' it, I'm sure that's where my hatred of my curls came from, when I was younger I always wanted my hair straight. Now at least I embrace my curls, but I never wanted anyone to touch my hair. 
Not that it's anywhere near the same thing as with black people's hair though, and the bigger picture of what it represents.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I watched an interview with the journalist involved in the knee incident this morning, she was quite clear that she did not feel intimidated or frightened and that she told him in no uncertain terms if he did it again she would punch him in the face. If they have other complaints and evidence about him then fair enough. I hope this is going to work both ways though - what action are the BBC taking against the head judge on Strictly for this inappropriate bum slap of one of the professional dancers. I think all hell would have been let loose if Len Goodman had done that to one of the young female dancers.

http://metro.co.uk/2017/10/28/stric...-bottom-as-they-demonstrate-the-jive-7034338/


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

grumpy goby said:


> There is such a thing as intent.
> 
> I have been hugged/touched by men in both contexts and trust me there is a huge difference.
> 
> ...





Mirandashell said:


> What's wrong with asking her if she wants a hug before you move in? Give her the choice. Don't just assume you are welcome.


Who said it was women? I didn't mention gender at all.

The time I'm thinking off is when I was leaving a six month stint helping a friend set up a new business. 90% of the staff were teenage females. On hearing I was leaving three of them came up and gave me a hug, no warning just flung their arms around me. Was I being sexually abused? Or was it just a genuine show of platonic affection? Should I now, some fifteen years later accuse them of sexual assault?

I'm not saying sexual abuse doesn't occur, but not every touch is done with malicious intent, far from it.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Dr Pepper said:


> Who said it was women? I didn't mention gender at all.
> 
> The time I'm thinking off is when I was leaving a six month stint helping a friend set up a new business. 90% of the staff were teenage females. On hearing I was leaving three of them came up and gave me a hug, no warning just flung their arms around me. Was I being sexually abused? Or was it just a genuine show of platonic affection? Should I now, some fifteen years later accuse them of sexual assault?
> 
> I'm not saying sexual abuse doesn't occur, but not every touch is done with malicious intent, far from it.


Like i said. INTENT matters.

Did you feel uncomfortable? Were they familiar colleagues? Intent absolutely exists, I have received unsolicited hugs from many a colleague, but they are clearly friendly encounters and not uncomfortable. There is a MASSIVE difference between that and an action with sexual or "power" related undertones.

Conflating friendly encounters, and unfriendly unwanted sexual advances is not helpful. It is exactly the opposite.

The reporter, whilst obviously not "offended" by the knee thing did threaten to punch him if he did it again, so this clearly was not a friendly empathetic encounter.

It really isnt rocket science.

Using my example, would you say a 50yr old man grabbing a 18yo girls arse while she is up a ladder is a friendly encounter - simply misunderstood? Or standing with a hard one against her while she is pinned against a live DB? Or perhaps grabbing her leg under a table while she tries to eat? Harmless fun??

Or the colleagues, with whom I am friends and comfortable with, who have given me a friendly hug when seeing me, or I have left my job? See the difference?

People who have claimed they have been approached inappropriately by people in power are vary rarely just inventing it. Its creepy AF.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

emmaviolet said:


> As a naturally curly haired child, I have experienced a lot with my hair, people assuming they could 'boing' it, I'm sure that's where my hatred of my curls came from, when I was younger I always wanted my hair straight. Now at least I embrace my curls, but I never wanted anyone to touch my hair.
> Not that it's anywhere near the same thing as with black people's hair though, and the bigger picture of what it represents.


Ha, I know what you mean. As a kid my hair was very tight and curly and adults always "boinged" it. It did get on my nerves a bit but I thought nothing more off it. Now I just wish I had enough hair to be so curly! Actually the one thing that has stuck with me since I was about twelve was the "nit nurse" who when I entered the room and saw my curly hair and said "oh, what a shame"!


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

grumpy goby said:


> Like i said. INTENT matter.
> 
> Did you feel uncomfortable? Were they familiar colleagues? Intent absolutely exists, I have received unsolicited hugs from many a colleague, but they are clearly friendly encounters and not uncomfortable. There is a MASSIVE difference between that and an action with sexual or "power" related undertones.
> 
> ...


I agree, it just seems many people are happy to report sexual assaults where there was none and no intent, especially when they decide thirty or so years later a innocent hug was abuse. Personally I did feel uncomfortable because I was more than old enough to be their father and did worry what on lookers might think, isn't that sad.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Dr Pepper said:


> I agree, it just seems many people are happy to report sexual assaults where there was none and no intent, especially when they decide thirty or so years later a innocent hug was abuse. Personally I did feel uncomfortable because I was more than old enough to be their father and did worry what on lookers might think, isn't that sad.


I think you are grossly underestimating the issue at hand, and over estimating the willingness of women to come forward with these matters.
[edited to add "According to the charity Rape Crisis 85,000 women and 12,000 men are raped each year in England and Wales, and only 15% of victims chose to report the crime to police." If rape reporting rate is so low, what are the chances that these sort of more mild reports or fexual harassment or contact in the workplace are unreasonably high or unsolicited?]

I would say if someone has remembered for something for 15+ years, there was nothing innocent about it. (I dont remember every friendly hug, or pat on the back, or innocent comment. I DO remember every incident that made me feel gross, dirty or humiliated)


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> I agree, it just seems many people are happy to report sexual assaults where there was none and no intent, especially when they decide thirty or so years later a innocent hug was abuse. Personally I did feel uncomfortable because I was more than old enough to be their father and did worry what on lookers might think, isn't that sad.


As a socially awkward woman, I find it uncomfortable when other women, especially women who are merely acquaintances, throw their arms around me in an unsolicited hug, which sounds a lot like what you're describing, but that's not the same as sexual harassment. You were uncomfortable because you were worried about what people thought. I get uncomfortable because I don't usually like hugging at the best of times unless it's my mum, dad or bro, and often genuinely don't know how to handle it. These women (and men) are uncomfortable because they are being hugged/touched/spoken to in a way that they would expect a lover or spouse to touch/hug/speak to them.

It is frankly concerning that you fail to see the difference.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

LinznMilly said:


> As a socially awkward woman, I find it uncomfortable when other women, especially women who are merely acquaintances, throw their arms around me in an unsolicited hug, which sounds a lot like what you're describing, but that's not the same as sexual harassment. You were uncomfortable because you were worried about what people thought. I get uncomfortable because I don't usually like hugging at the best of times unless it's my mum, dad or bro, and often genuinely don't know how to handle it. These women (and men) are uncomfortable because they are being hugged/touched/spoken to in a way that they would expect a lover or spouse to touch/hug/speak to them.
> 
> It is frankly concerning that you fail to see the difference.


That hugging idiosyncrasies are very English must say...
My boss never did till I handed my notice and was truly sad...as I like him a lot...( he is 70plus)...

But I understand being uncomfortable then you are propositioned by your boss or supervisor and you know that refusal frankly takes you to dead end of your carrier.

But would not fuss about some attention...
Definitely not about banter if allowed to give as I get....


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

grumpy goby said:


> I would say if someone has remembered for something for 15+ years, there was nothing innocent about it.


I remember innocent hugs from work colleagues and even complete strangers from far longer ago that 15 years. I also remember not such innocent events from my childhood over 50 yrs ago, even though it wasn't an "attack" as such.

Also remember 20 odd years ago, a poor delivery driver being demonised and reported for harassment/sexual innuendo to his boss by some stupid woman because he was being cheerful and friendly and called her love


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

grumpy goby said:


> I would say if someone has remembered for something for 15+ years, there was nothing innocent about it. (I dont remember every friendly hug, or pat on the back, or innocent comment. I DO remember every incident that made me feel gross, dirty or humiliated)


I missed this, I was done with thread. But.....

So you are seriously saying that I have a case for sexual harassment against three young girls because I remember a hug from fifteen years ago?

"Me too"


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Dr Pepper said:


> especially when they decide thirty or so years later a innocent hug was abuse.


I know this is not the Weinstein thread, but same topic, and yes, many of Weinstein's alleged victims were genuinely abused; but had Amanda Judd not initially spoken out, you have to wonder if any of the others ever would have done? A lot of women took quite a while to back her up.
But now all and sundry are saying (for example) that someone 'made them feel uncomfortable' because he made a pass at her at dinner and I agree with @dorrit's post that this is trivialising the whole subject and, in many cases, wasting time while it is investigated.
When I was at school, the caretaker had a little 'den' which is where the lost property was kept, but as he was rather 'handy' none of the girls ever went looking for their belongings there. These were not 'friendly hugs', but if you told your parents they just told you to take someone with you to claim your tie. Spoke to a friend of mine, same thing happened at her school too! And I have lost count of the number of times some guy exposed himself when I used to walk my dog along the towpath.
Him: 'Do you know what this is?' (Looks down at his own 'thingy' and leers.)
Me: 'Well, I suppose it looks like a penis but smaller.'
Dog: 'Sausage?'


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

In the spirit of outing people I will ask any male who travelled on the 85A bus to Putney south London or the train from Putney to Clapham Juction in the weekday morning and the revese journey at 4pm between the years 1975 and 1981 should report for questioning..
I was between 11 and 16 at the time and was fumbled, grabbed, stroked and felt more erections in those years than at any time since,,At the time advice was ignore it, move a bit further down the bus ( this just gave a new perv the chance to fumble) or get off the bus.

But if we can all claim compo I might be in for a few pennies....

No?
Of course not because although it was wrong and those men were nasty pathetic perverts who used the London rush hour to carry out their nasty habits there was no damage done. It was a fact of life and we laughed about the sad bas***ds with their stiffy in their hand.

A little more down to earth attitude about what really consitutes abuse and help for real victims instead of flashy headlines and wannabees seeing a chance to get a mention in the press. Please.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

dorrit said:


> In the spirit of outing people I will ask any male who travelled on the 85A bus to Putney south London or the train from Putney to Clapham Juction in the weekday morning and the revese journey at 4pm between the years 1975 and 1981 should report for questioning..
> I was between 11 and 16 at the time and was fumbled, grabbed, stroked and felt more erections in those years than at any time since,,At the time advice was ignore it, move a bit further down the bus ( this just gave a new perv the chance to fumble) or get off the bus.
> 
> But if we can all claim compo I might be in for a few pennies....
> ...


First, I just want to say how sorry I am to hear you was subjected to such awful abuse.

That being said, I find what you've just said here to be both offensive to victims, but more than that, highly damaging, and I hope you are not around young girls and subjecting them to this opinion of yours.

In no way, ever, should anyone have a 'down to earth attitude' about it, nor a sense of humour, nor ever, EVER accept this behaviour as a woman, but especially as a child as 'a fact of life', it should never be a fact of life that a child is subjected to men abusing them, so please, please examine your own beliefs on this, as it's worrying you really believe any of what you have written above.

Finally, you may believe it hasn't done you any damage, and I don't know you at all, but just from this post, I can see it really has done you lasting damage in relation to how you see and value your self and your worth. You most likely have many issues with what happened, but they have been repressed and are coming out in this way.

Again, I am sorry you had to be subjected to abuse as a child, it's never ok, never right, and never laughable or a fact of life. Never believe that for yourself, and anyone reading it, never accept this sort of behaviour, please.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> First, I just want to say how sorry I am to hear you was subjected to such awful abuse.
> 
> That being said, I find what you've just said here to be both offensive to victims, but more than that, highly damaging, and I hope you are not around young girls and subjecting them to this opinion of yours.
> 
> ...


How arrogant of you to judge how someone else reacts.
I have had many incidents over many many years and rather than damaging my self worth, it's most probably had the opposite effects because I've never been a victim and I know for sure than I am better and stronger than those pathetic little men.
It also hasn't made me a man hater as my best friends are decent, honest men


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

rona said:


> How arrogant of you to judge how someone else reacts.
> I have had many incidents over many many years and rather than damaging my self worth, it's most probably had the opposite effects because I've never been a victim and I know for sure than I am better and stronger than those pathetic little men.
> It also hasn't made me a man hater as my best friends are decent, honest men


I'm sorry, did you not see the post that I quoted actually judging the victims of multiple assaults and saying it's a fact of life?

I think a post such as that, with a VERY damaging message is worth talking about.

I expect you to likewise attack their post too, yes? No?


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## planete (Jan 21, 2012)

If anybody did anything similar to those men in Dorrit's post I am afraid I would be telling the whole bus about it in an extremely loud voice. I learnt to stand up to such creeps as a lone young female in London in the sixties. No, it is not acceptable, it is gross and should be stamped on. I would not grab an unknown man's sexual organs or rub myself against him on public transport (or anywhere else!). Both sexes have an absolute right to the same respect and anything else IS abuse. How you react is your decision but the principle stands.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I know the difference between serious sexual assault and banter or flirting.

I was lucky in my dealing with men, one of my sisters was not.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

emmaviolet said:


> First, I just want to say how sorry I am to hear you was subjected to such awful abuse.
> 
> That being said, I find what you've just said here to be both offensive to victims, but more than that, highly damaging, and I hope you are not around young girls and subjecting them to this opinion of yours.
> 
> ...


:Jawdrop Wow just bloody wow


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> :Jawdrop Wow just bloody wow


My meaning in this was, to believe that such abuse of a child of 11 is just a fact of life can be a lasting result of sustained abuse.

There are many cases where victims themselves believe what others have reported is nothing or meaningless as they have experienced worse, but to them it was nothing and they believe they are fine, when in fact, they really are not, there is always damage when you have been the subject of direct abuse, and it can manifest itself in many ways, including believing other people's abuse is just a way of life.


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> First, I just want to say how sorry I am to hear you was subjected to such awful abuse.
> 
> That being said, I find what you've just said here to be both offensive to victims, but more than that, highly damaging, and I hope you are not around young girls and subjecting them to this opinion of yours.
> 
> ...


That victim attitude is exactly whats wrong ...

It was at a time when this was seen in a very different light and my point was we cannot continue to rake up stuff from 30 or 40 years ago its time to let go /..Unless of course we are talking serious sexual assult.

As for my self worth and self confidence being damaged... You dont know me if you did you wouldnt even entertain such a silly thought ..

I hold my own and Im confident and very comfortable with my body and those around me.

What I cant stand is this whole fluffy women are china dolls who cannot cope with any male advances without fading into a faint attitude.

Real victims need all the help they can get and this silly me too hype is diverting much needed funds and attention from those victims be they men or women , and the damage being done to real victims and to ordinary daily interaction between ordinary men and women is beyond measure,


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

dorrit said:


> That victim attitude is exactly whats wrong ...
> 
> It was at a time when this was seen in a very different light and my point was we cannot continue to rake up stuff from 30 or 40 years ago its time to let go /..Unless of course we are talking serious sexual assult.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but you are a real victim of abuse, even if you are not a victim in your mind, and even if you don't believe it to be sexual abuse.

I'm not saying you are not confident, but to believe you should just accept that kind of sick behaviour as just a fact of life is not right, it's saying you should just accept it, but you shouldn't, you are worth much more than that.

I believe it's a good thing to bring it up, people should be made to pay for abuse if it was committed, and for some people, finally talking about it is a way of getting closure on it, a way to cope with it.

What happened to you was not ordinary daily interaction, it should never be accepted as just a way of life, and this movement that's happening is making the younger generation aware of that. It all should come out, including people who 'only' grab women. Girls should be made aware of what they are worth and know they own their own power and do not have to sit there and be touched if they don't want to be and just accept it.

'Raking it up' means everyone is aware of what has happened and that we won't tolerate it anymore.

What happened to you should never happen to any child, it just shouldn't.

If you have a young grandchild and she told you that a man had done all of those things to her, surely you wouldn't say she should either laugh it off or just accept it as another fact of life she has to contend with? You would want this man removed from society to prevent him from doing it to anyone else.

It's not a fluffy attitude if you don't wish to be touch inappropriately, or sexually harassed. When men are powerful it's hard for some women to stand up for themselves, and that's fine, it's not wrong to be quieter and the victim of assault. It's not the women's fault in any way. 
Some people cannot just move on from it, it's very damaging, and it can affect people very differently. It's great you was able to dismiss what happened to you, but some who have had the same happen to them are very damaged from it, so it's not a case for them of just letting it go now.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

emmaviolet said:


> My meaning in this was, to believe that such abuse of a child of 11 is just a fact of life can be a lasting result of sustained abuse.
> 
> There are many cases where victims themselves believe what others have reported is nothing or meaningless as they have experienced worse, but to them it was nothing and they believe they are fine, when in fact, they really are not, there is always damage when you have been the subject of direct abuse, and it can manifest itself in many ways, including believing other people's abuse is just a way of life.


"Can be" but clearly the person you quoted didn't think so and jumping to such judgements about her and her self worth/confidence is out of order.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> "Can be" but clearly the person you quoted didn't think so and jumping to such judgements about her and her self worth/confidence is out of order.


To dismiss such abuse as she did shows she has little worth for the victims of sexual assault, and by proxy herself if she dismisses abuse as nothing.

It's a subtle thing at times, you can believe you have enormous self worth, but if you allow such things to happen to you and not realise that it's so wrong, then I stand by the fact you have less self worth because of it, which is very common in victims of abuse.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

emmaviolet said:


> To dismiss such abuse as she did shows she has little worth for the victims of sexual assault, and by proxy herself if she dismisses abuse as nothing.
> 
> It's a subtle thing at times, you can believe you have enormous self worth, but if you allow such things to happen to you and not realise that it's so wrong, then I stand by the fact you have less self worth because of it, which is very common in victims of abuse.


To make those comments in general terms is fine but you didn't you made them very personal which is out of order. Lots of things affect confidence and self worth, personally I was far more affected by bullying from girls and female PE teachers at school than I've ever been by a man trying to touch me up or make lewd comments. I've said before that when nursing in the 70's & 80's it was an everyday occurrence to have male patients try to grope nurse's bums or have a feel to see if we had stockings on, often elderly men, I don't consider that sexual assault and found a polite lifting of the hand with "I don't think so" did the trick.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> To make those comments in general terms is fine but you didn't you made them very personal which is out of order. Lots of things affect confidence and self worth, personally I was far more affected by bullying from girls and female PE teachers at school than I've ever been by a man trying to touch me up or make lewd comments. I've said before that when nursing in the 70's & 80's it was an everyday occurrence to have male patients try to grope nurse's bums or have a feel to see if we had stockings on, often elderly men, I don't consider that sexual assault and found a polite lifting of the hand with "I don't think so" did the trick.


I will just point out again, in case younger girls are reading, that yes, a man groping you in this way IS sexual assault.

Maybe I put it too boldly, but I still stand by the comments. For a child to be made to feel grown men's erections, it's serious sexual assault, and to believe yourself collateral damage to me spells out a lack of self worth in this area. It's not saying she has none in all aspects of life, but here, yes.

If you wouldn't accept it for your child or grandchild, this is how much you have to value yourself too.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

emmaviolet said:


> I will just point out again, in case younger girls are reading, that yes, a man groping you in this way IS sexual assault.
> 
> Maybe I put it too boldly, but I still stand by the comments. For a child to be made to feel grown men's erections, it's serious sexual assault, and to believe yourself collateral damage to me spells out a lack of self worth in this area. It's not saying she has none in all aspects of life, but here, yes.
> 
> If you wouldn't accept it for your child or grandchild, this is how much you have to value yourself too.


How do you know what level of self worth someone on a forum has in their life? It isn't really up to you or anyone else to judge her self worth just because she made a comment you don't happen to agree with.

I'd also like to point out for young men reading that women pinching your bum or asking you to take your shirt off so they can feel your Pecs or 6 pack IS also sexual assault and that when my husband used to be a salesman and have to go into factories where all the workers were female and run a barrage of sexual innuendo and lewd comments that was also sexual harassment. I notice nobody has commented on the video I linked to earlier of the Strictly head judge slapping the bum of a male dancer during a demonstration of the jive on "It takes two "which goes out at 6:30 pm to a family audience.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41854582

According to the Sun and the Daily Mail, Mrs Leadsom remarked to Sir Michael that she had cold hands and he allegedly replied: "I know where you can put them to warm them up".

The newspapers claim Sir Michael was forced to quit as defence secretary after Mrs Leadsom complained to Prime Minister Theresa May about the alleged incident.

Seriously? This is worthy of a complaint to the Prime Minister rather than dealing with it yourself at the time Andrea?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> How do you know what level of self worth someone on a forum has in their life? It isn't really up to you or anyone else to judge her self worth just because she made a comment you don't happen to agree with.
> 
> I'd also like to point out for young men reading that women pinching your bum or asking you to take your shirt off so they can feel your Pecs or 6 pack IS also sexual assault and that when my husband used to be a salesman and have to go into factories where all the workers were female and run a barrage of sexual innuendo and lewd comments that was also sexual harassment. I notice nobody has commented on the video I linked to earlier of the Strictly head judge slapping the bum of a male dancer during a demonstration of the jive on "It takes two "which goes out at 6:30 pm to a family audience.


It's the mentality in it, I don't know the amount of self worth they have in general, but to view yourself as collateral damage and accept child abuse forced onto them in this manner and proclaim it as just a fact of life, and to not take yourself too seriously about it, speaks to me as someone who doesn't.

I would hope she doesn't speak to a young grandchild in this way, and if told by a young child about the exact same thing would not tell them to laugh it off, or not take yourself too seriously, or it's just another fact of life. Because they are worth more than that, and is in fact criminal behaviour, the men were paedophiles taking advantage of a child.

It's a part of the psychology of abuse victims, it's too much to go into now, but it's there, and you have to look on yourself as you would if the same thing happened to your child/grandchild, and that's your worth/value. It's not about agreeing or disagreeing, I clearly disagree with what the poster said, I imagine she would too if the same applied to her own family.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41854582
> 
> According to the Sun and the Daily Mail, Mrs Leadsom remarked to Sir Michael that she had cold hands and he allegedly replied: "I know where you can put them to warm them up".
> 
> ...


It would get anyone in my company disciplined if the recipient of the behaviour reported it, I know that much.

Although I'll want better sources than those two bumf rags before I'll even come close to believing that's the whole story here.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

emmaviolet said:


> It's the mentality in it, I don't know the amount of self worth they have in general, but to view yourself as collateral damage and accept child abuse forced onto them in this manner and proclaim it as just a fact of life, and to not take yourself too seriously about it, speaks to me as someone who doesn't.
> 
> I would hope she doesn't speak to a young grandchild in this way, and if told by a young child about the exact same thing would not tell them to laugh it off, or not take yourself too seriously, or it's just another fact of life. Because they are worth more than that, and is in fact criminal behaviour, the men were paedophiles taking advantage of a child.
> 
> It's a part of the psychology of abuse victims, it's too much to go into now, but it's there, and you have to look on yourself as you would if the same thing happened to your child/grandchild, and that's your worth/value. It's not about agreeing or disagreeing, I clearly disagree with what the poster said, I imagine she would too if the same applied to her own family.


Quite you don't know the amount of self worth they have so you should not have made the outrageous comments that you did and frankly judging your worth and value by what might happen to your child or grandchild is totally dismissive of people who do not have children or grandchildren. Do I have no self worth because I have no children? :Grumpy


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Jesthar said:


> It would get anyone in my company disciplined if the recipient of the behaviour reported it, I know that much.
> 
> Although I'll want better sources than those two bumf rags before I'll even come close to believing that's the whole story here.


I'm very relieved I don't work in an environment like that - your HR department must be run off its feet. I also think it undermines the fight of women to be considered equal if we have to bring in our bosses to deal with something like a throw away sexual comment. A woman in the cabinet who stood for prime minister should be well able to rebuff the silly old fart, a simple "How inappropriate and unpleasant" should suffice.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

I've sat on my hands for long enough. This is getting personal. I was going to lock it, and my better judgement says I should, but I'm just going to watch and wait .... for now.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Quite you don't know the amount of self worth they have so you should not have made the outrageous comments that you did and frankly judging your worth and value by what might happen to your child or grandchild is totally dismissive of people who do not have children or grandchildren. Do I have no self worth because I have no children? :Grumpy


I was in no way saying that, I have no children or grandchildren, I was using the example as the poster has a granddaughter, who I would only hope if she came to her telling of the exact same abuse she would view in a completely different way. I doubt if she came to her and told her actions like that she would say laugh it off, or it's just a fact of life.
You don't have to be related to a child to understand how serious child abuse is, if any child came to me and told me such behaviour, I would take it very seriously and value their voice.

Why on earth would I dismiss anyone without children? That's completely against anything I believe.

I would just hope everyone has self worth to begin with. But many do not, many have been subject to certain things which have changed their opinion of what should be expected.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I'm very relieved I don't work in an environment like that - your HR department must be run off its feet. I also think it undermines the fight of women to be considered equal if we have to bring in our bosses to deal with something like a throw away sexual comment. A woman in the cabinet who stood for prime minister should be well able to rebuff the silly old fart, a simple "How inappropriate and unpleasant" should suffice.


Years ago a first year analyst got a colleague fired because he made an off colour joke. This was at 3am when there were still about 10 of them in the office and he just did it because they were all tired and needed a bit of light relief. I heard the joke the next day and thought "bit crap, but definitely not something to get so upset about that you ruin somebody's career". It's women like this who make it extremely difficult for the real cases.

Absolutely no tears were shed for her when she was caught cheating on her FSA exam and was sacked.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I'm very relieved I don't work in an environment like that - your HR department must be run off its feet. I also think it undermines the fight of women to be considered equal if we have to bring in our bosses to deal with something like a throw away sexual comment. A woman in the cabinet who stood for prime minister should be well able to rebuff the silly old fart, a simple "How inappropriate and unpleasant" should suffice.


But men also go to the boss and complain about the same thing.

It has happened in the case of Kevin Spacey, a male worker went to their bosses to complain about his actions and things he had said.

Also, seeing something in print does not commute the tone it was said in, if there was aggression in his voice etc.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

LinznMilly said:


> I've sat on my hands for long enough. This is getting personal. I was going to lock it, and my better judgement says I should, but I'm just going to watch and wait .... for now.


Please don't.

I think this subject matter is too important.

If it's because of my posts, illustrate to me where I am making mistakes and I will change accordingly.

I think it's far too important to quieten the conversation.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> How do you know what level of self worth someone on a forum has in their life? It isn't really up to you or anyone else to judge her self worth just because she made a comment you don't happen to agree with.


Absolutely ! I'm astounded by the arrogance of it.

Its not just women that were subjected to being groped , my OH , when he first started work in an office he was teased and groped by women , more so because he was shy and would blush easily .
At his secondary school , the young female art teacher used to grope the boys.

Women have suffered much but I don't like this reverse sexism that occurs now .

Being a teenager in the 70s , one was accustomed to men making passes at you or "accidently" brushing your boob or bum , it should not have happened but it was the culture. 
Over the years , For me , the difference between a man or a woman making a pass at you and a sexual assault , is how it made me feel . A clumsy kiss or a hand lingering somewhere was mainly annoying and if they blamed you for "leading them on " it made me angry but more serious assault perhaps when they wouldn't back off and you felt really scared or pervy exposing thenselves stuff, it makes you feel filthy.
I once got caught in a stable by pervy guy , no one else was around , and I grabbed a bridle and laid into him, I was lucky .
It made me nervous after and a long time to recover


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> Please don't.
> 
> I think this subject matter is too important.
> 
> ...


It's not just you. People are taking things personally, whether they were intended to be personal or not.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

emmaviolet said:


> I was in no way saying that, I have no children or grandchildren, I was using the example as the poster has a granddaughter, who I would only hope if she came to her telling of the exact same abuse she would view in a completely different way. I doubt if she came to her and told her actions like that she would say laugh it off, or it's just a fact of life.
> You don't have to be related to a child to understand how serious child abuse is, if any child came to me and told me such behaviour, I would take it very seriously and value their voice.
> 
> *Why on earth would I dismiss anyone without children? That's completely against anything I believe.*
> ...


I'm afraid this comment does sound very dismissive of anyone without children or grandchildren

"It's a part of the psychology of abuse victims, it's too much to go into now, but it's there, and you have to look on yourself as you would if the same thing happened to your child/grandchild, and that's your worth/value. It's not about agreeing or disagreeing, I clearly disagree with what the poster said, I imagine she would too if the same applied to her own family"

By the way I used to work for social services and organise/minute child abuse case conferences, there is a world of difference between ignoring child abuse and teaching children/young adults skills for dealing with other people's behaviour whether that be of a sexual or a bullying/intimidating nature in general.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

emmaviolet said:


> But men also go to the boss and complain about the same thing.
> 
> It has happened in the case of Kevin Spacey, a male worker went to their bosses to complain about his actions and things he had said.
> 
> Also, seeing something in print does not commute the tone it was said in, if there was aggression in his voice etc.


Totally different. Those men viewed Kevin Spacey as being in a position of power, his comments were persistent and intimidating and in some cases became physical. That is not the same as a silly comment about warming your hands up down my trousers. Not sure how that can be said aggressively but like I said a simple "That is inappropriate and offensive" should suffice.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I'm afraid this comment does sound very dismissive of anyone without children or grandchildren
> 
> "It's a part of the psychology of abuse victims, it's too much to go into now, but it's there, and you have to look on yourself as you would if the same thing happened to your child/grandchild, and that's your worth/value. It's not about agreeing or disagreeing, I clearly disagree with what the poster said, I imagine she would too if the same applied to her own family"
> 
> By the way I used to work for social services and organise/minute child abuse case conferences, there is a world of difference between ignoring child abuse and teaching children/young adults skills for dealing with other people's behaviour whether that be of a sexual or a bullying/intimidating nature in general.


Well it's not in any way, I just knew the poster had a young grand daughter. It was specific to my knowledge of her.

I do not have children, and due to medical conditions, am incapable of having a child naturally. I will never dismiss people's worth if they do not have children, it's just not something I ever do, my post was to her experiences and her own family.

Yes, teaching, but I doubt any of it involves laughing it off, or dismissing it as a fact of life.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Totally different. Those men viewed Kevin Spacey as being in a position of power, his comments were persistent and intimidating and in some cases became physical. That is not the same as a silly comment about warming your hands up down my trousers. Not sure how that can be said aggressively but like I said a simple "That is inappropriate and offensive" should suffice.


Forgive me, but is he not in a position of power too?

Kevin Spacey had made inappropriate comments about where to put something, it came out last night as a complaint against him made to HOC.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I'm very relieved I don't work in an environment like that - your HR department must be run off its feet. I also think it undermines the fight of women to be considered equal if we have to bring in our bosses to deal with something like a throw away sexual comment. A woman in the cabinet who stood for prime minister should be well able to rebuff the silly old fart, a simple "How inappropriate and unpleasant" should suffice.


I really shouldn't reply, as you appear to be in one of those moods where you are interpreting everything personally and to extremes, but heigh-ho.

Note the 'IF' the recipient reported it. There is plenty of joking and joshing that goes on here. What is important is not simply the intent, but how the recipient feels about it, intent or no - OR how someone who overhears the exchange feels about it. This is the law. Now, between colleagues who are friends such joking is unlikely to be taken seriously. However, as a Union rep I have seen more than a few incidents where certain employees use their position to indulge in behaviour that others find highly inappropriate. Usually these cases only come to a head when the recipient ends up signed off with stress or depression, as they believe it will be dismissed as oversensitivity if they report it, or they have already been told it's 'just a bit of banter, don't take it seriously' when they found the courage to complain.

Obviously, that's one end of the spectrum. One would hope that the usual process would be the person who objects to the behaviour would say this to the perpetrator, and the perpetrator would apologise and refrain from any repetition. Sadly, that is not always the case, but it's the ones who see no problem with such behaviours (whether male or female), including those who openly excuse them, who are a much bigger problem than the occasional overreactive recipient.

We don't know the whole of this story about the minister. There may well have been multiple incidents, perhaps multiple complaints, even previous warnings to the minister in question. The comment may have been made in a far more suggestive way than it looks in print. But to suggest that because she's run for office she should be able to ignore sexually inappropriate behaviour is to miss the point that people of any standing shouldn't be put in a position where they feel they have no choice but to ignore and endure such behaviour.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> If it's because of my posts, illustrate to me where I am making mistakes and I will change accordingly.


I assume this is meant ironically given this......



emmaviolet said:


> Finally, you may believe it hasn't done you any damage, and I don't know you at all, but just from this post, I can see it really has done you lasting damage in relation to how you see and value your self and your worth. You most likely have many issues with what happened, but they have been repressed and are coming out in this way.


You really can't not know how rude, arrogant and personal the above comment is surely?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Satori said:


> I assume this is meant ironically given this......
> 
> You really can't not know how rude, arrogant and personal the above comment is surely?


See, you cannot know how offensive I found the original post, but that seems to be overlooked.

It was far more arrogant, and offensive to multiple victims of abuse, but there you go, I'm sure we're all too fluffy, or attention seeking, or whatever, we should just take abusive behaviour as a laugh.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

LinznMilly said:


> It's not just you. People are taking things personally, whether they were intended to be personal or not.


I don't know, but maybe that's a good thing. Maybe we shouldn't be afraid of taking it personally.

This subject is bound to cause jagged edges, but maybe by opening it all up we actually move forwards. Maybe confronting old fashioned ideas is how we move forward.

So long as it's not breaking the rules, maybe it's best to have a truly open conversation.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Satori said:


> I assume this is meant ironically given this......
> 
> You really can't not know how rude, arrogant and personal the above comment is surely?


I was actually shaking as I responded to that post.

Maybe it wasn't the most eloquent thing to say, but I couldn't believe anyone would dismiss victims of assault like the post did, and therefore themselves included.

It's very much a shame that one comment on my post has been picked apart, yet the complete dismissal of what amounts to child abuse and many women's abuse has been overlooked/ignored. Especially how important the subject matter is.
The poster suggested that men abusing children was a fact of life and something to be laughed off. that's a pretty serious statement. Strange it is being very much overlooked.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Jesthar said:


> I really shouldn't reply,* as you appear to be in one of those moods where you are interpreting everything personally and to extremes, *but heigh-ho.
> 
> Note the 'IF' the recipient reported it. There is plenty of joking and joshing that goes on here. What is important is not simply the intent, but how the recipient feels about it, intent or no - OR how someone who overhears the exchange feels about it. This is the law. Now, between colleagues who are friends such joking is unlikely to be taken seriously. However, as a Union rep I have seen more than a few incidents where certain employees use their position to indulge in behaviour that others find highly inappropriate. Usually these cases only come to a head when the recipient ends up signed off with stress or depression, as they believe it will be dismissed as oversensitivity if they report it, or they have already been told it's 'just a bit of banter, don't take it seriously' when they found the courage to complain.
> 
> ...


Oh look a very personal comment that I am not supposed to take personally whether it was intended or not :Hilarious:Hilarious I don't disagree with what you say about people needing to be aware of how their comments make other people feel either. I did not however suggest she should ignore sexually inappropriate comments nor endure inappropriate behaviour I said I would have expected her to be more than capable of dealing with it at the time.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

I'm not sure why dealing with at the time precludes reporting it to his boss?


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Oh look a very personal comment that I am not supposed to take personally whether it was intended or not :Hilarious:Hilarious I don't disagree with what you say about people needing to be aware of how their comments make other people feel either. I did not however suggest she should ignore sexually inappropriate comments nor endure inappropriate behaviour I said I would have expected her to be more than capable of dealing with it at the time.


More of an observation, but if you took it personally I apologise.

You can deal with offensive behaviour at the time and still deem it serious enough to report as well.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

The world has gone mad, you now can't even touch someone without some taking it wrong. There is touching and touching can't people tell the difference, even looking at someone the wrong way now can be called sexual abuse.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Have you got evidence for that claim?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> See, you cannot know how offensive I found the original post, but that seems to be overlooked.
> 
> It was far more arrogant, and offensive to multiple victims of abuse, but there you go, I'm sure we're all too fluffy, or attention seeking, or whatever, we should just take abusive behaviour as a laugh.


Yes perhaps its been over looked and I appreciate its upsetting.

Members are reacting to this comment below and sorry, you have no right to say this .

"Finally, you may believe it hasn't done you any damage, and I don't know you at all, but just from this post, I can see it really has done you lasting damage in relation to how you see and value your self and your worth. You most likely have many issues with what happened, but they have been repressed and are coming out in this way. "


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Mirandashell said:


> I'm not sure why dealing with at the time precludes reporting it to his boss?


It doesn't if the situation warrants it.



Jesthar said:


> More of an observation, but if you took it personally I apologise.
> 
> You can deal with offensive behaviour at the time and still deem it serious enough to report as well.


I didn't but was pointing out the irony 

Yes I understand that although I've never felt it necessary to report anyone because I've always felt confident that I have dealt with a situation sufficiently myself. if the person had moved on to using aggressive or intimidating approaches then I would have reported it but I do think we are in danger of losing our skills of how to deal with comments and minor misdemeanours ourselves.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

I don't quite see why something not affecting one person badly means the same thing will not affect another person badly? I see no conflict between the experience of one person who was groped on a bus, didn't like it but does not see it as abuse, and another person who experiences the same act as abuse. I am not sure for example, why because Anne Robinson managed the situation herself because she was able to, that her method of dealing with it then becomes the yardstick for every other person to be judged by. Especially as she is not known for her sympathetic style.

What is hard about accepting that as with mental health and bullying, different things have different affects for different people?

And yet again we have the threat of closing the thread to everyone rather than dealing with whichever poster is the issue. Collective punishment is against the Geneva Convention!

It is bound to have an emotive effect when so very many people have direct experience of sexual abuse and harassment. I find it very telling that instead of saying that Fallon has done the right thing because as he himself said "_I accept that in the past I have fallen below the high standards that we require of the armed forces that I have the honour to represent", _people are saying that the other party should have dealt with it better. Excuse me?

And on the point about Strictly - the constant leching and leering, and the inappropriate touching of the male dancers on there makes it, for me, no better than Benny Hill in his glory days. You can boast about your power all you like through sexual innuendo but while you still can't walk down the stairs without support you have a fair way to go!


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes I understand that although I've never felt it necessary to report anyone because I've always felt confident that I have dealt with a situation sufficiently myself. if the person had moved on to using aggressive or intimidating approaches then I would have reported it but I do think we are in danger of losing our skills of how to deal with comments and minor misdemeanours ourselves.


Sometimes it's not just about dealing with something yourself, though. If you know the person in question is given to such behaviours, then by reporting them it may be more than yourself you protect.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

rona said:


> I remember innocent hugs from work colleagues and even complete strangers from far longer ago that 15 years


Me too, innocent hugs and kisses, also nasty perverted passengers on the tube taking advantage of the fact that the carriage was packed in the rush hour. And one guy asking if I'd finished with my newspaper as he wanted to check the time of something on TV, and then doing the unthinkable behind it. I told him he could keep it after that episode.:Jawdrop


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Jonescat said:


> I don't quite see why something not affecting one person badly means the same thing will not affect another person badly? I see no conflict between the experience of one person who was groped on a bus, didn't like it but does not see it as abuse, and another person who experiences the same act as abuse. I am not sure for example, why because Anne Robinson managed the situation herself because she was able to, that her method of dealing with it then becomes the yardstick for every other person to be judged by. Especially as she is not known for her sympathetic style.
> 
> What is hard about accepting that as with mental health and bullying, different things have different affects for different people?
> 
> ...


I'm not saying she should have dealt with it better because none of us know how she did deal with it, I was just saying I don't think the comment about warming your hands down my trousers, being said to an adult woman warrants a complaint to the Prime Minister or a resignation.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Jesthar said:


> Sometimes it's not just about dealing with something yourself, though. If you know the person in question is given to such behaviours, then by reporting them it may be more than yourself you protect.


Again it depends on context surely, if you know the person makes silly comments about his willy on a regular basis or invites adult women to warm their hands down his trousers I'm not sure I would feel the need to report them. I would probably have a quite word with them about how inappropriate and offensive their comments and are and how they could well cause upset or make someone feel intimidated. I personally and I appreciate not everyone would feel able to do so would prefer to say something directly to the person rather than reporting them for this sort of minor misdemeanour.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> Yes perhaps its been over looked and I appreciate its upsetting.
> 
> Members are reacting to this comment below and sorry, you have no right to say this .
> 
> "Finally, you may believe it hasn't done you any damage, and I don't know you at all, but just from this post, I can see it really has done you lasting damage in relation to how you see and value your self and your worth. You most likely have many issues with what happened, but they have been repressed and are coming out in this way. "


Oh I know what it was.

In my opinion the other member had no right to say what she did about the victims of abuse, but there you go.

I still stand by what I said though, if you really feel that what she described was just part of life and something to laugh about, you are not valuing yourself as you very much should, I will always stand by that. No child or woman should have to accept that as the norm, you're worth more then that.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Jonescat said:


> nd on the point about Strictly - the constant leching and leering, and the inappropriate touching of the male dancers on there makes it, for me, no better than Benny Hill in his glory days. You can boast about your power all you like through sexual innuendo but while you still can't walk down the stairs without support you have a fair way to go!


Is the way the way world going, no touching dancing!! All those nasty perverted men forcing the women to dance and be touched by them, disgraceful.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Again it depends on context surely, if you know the person makes silly comments about his willy on a regular basis or invites adult women to warm their hands down his trousers I'm not sure I would feel the need to report them. I would probably have a quite word with them about how inappropriate and offensive their comments and are and how they could well cause upset or make someone feel intimidated. I personally and I appreciate not everyone would feel able to do so would prefer to say something directly to the person rather than reporting them for this sort of minor misdemeanour.


See, I would think someone who does it serially is worth reporting more then someone who said one crass joke in the wrong context, but is otherwise completely fine. Everybody is capable of saying the odd thing that can be taken in the wrong way, if someone is exhibiting the behaviour you described above and frequently, that's an issue.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Let me just give an example from my own life about context for the few people who seem to be struggling with it (cough*DrPepper*)

I used to work in a building where you had to present your pass to the plate next to the front door to make the door open. I wore my pass on a lanyard around my neck. The plate could read the card through my clothes so I would just lean towards the plate.

One day a guy I didn't know walked up behind me as I did it. He then said 'Ooh! Magic breasts!' I looked round at him like this  and he blushed! He looked so uncomfortable that I think he didn't mean to say it out loud and was embarrassed when he realised he had.

Now, I just walked off without saying anything but when I got on my own, I laughed my head off. I found it really funny.

But .... if he had said that while leering at me, or standing closely to me, it would have been completely different. That would have been intimidating and uncomfortable for me and I would have reacted totally differently.

Same words, different intent. And yes, I would have reported the second incident.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> Oh I know what it was.
> 
> In my opinion the other member had no right to say what she did about the victims of abuse, but there you go.


and you made that clear , but that doesn't justify or give you an excuse to say what you did .


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> and you made that clear , but that doesn't justify or give you an excuse to say what you did .


Again, there is a reason why I said what I did.

It is true if you are subjected to enough abuse, as a child, and as an adult, it has this effect on you. You actually don't see it as being that bad, you feel that it was fine, it's what you're worth. that's all I was saying. And I was pointing out that it is actually an occurrence of abuse, if you believe that child abuse, a man touching you with an erection as a child is a laughing matter, then something has happened to make you believe that's all you're worth.

I wouldn't think any child should be subjected to that, would you? So to think it's fine for yourself, that's just not right.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Mirandashell said:


> One day a guy I didn't know walked up behind me as I did it. He then said 'Ooh! Magic breasts!' I looked round at him like this  and he blushed! He looked so uncomfortable that I think he didn't mean to say it out loud and was embarrassed when he realised he had.
> 
> Now, I just walked off without saying anything but when I got on my own, I laughed my head off. I found it really funny.
> 
> .


 That did make me laugh.

This isn't funny, though. A friend of mine , back in the 90s , one of the blokes in her office said I bet you a fiver I can make your boobs move without touching them and she said ok because she thought there's no way he can do that . Then he grabbed her boobs and gave her the fiver and said That was worth it 

Shes a tough cookie but was upset by it , she didn't report it because she felt silly


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2017)

emmaviolet said:


> I will just point out again, in case younger girls are reading, that yes, a man groping you in this way IS sexual assault.


Very much agree. 
Though to be fair the poster did say this behavior was wrong.

But yes, this needs to be emphasized. 
There seems to be a reactionary "oh great, now everything is sexual assault" attitude resulting from women (and men) finally standing up to what is for sure abuse. A man rubbing his erection against you on a crowded bus is abuse. No discussion.

I'm the kind of person who would turn around and say something. But with this attitude of complicity, if a woman turns to the man and says "get your boner off of me you pervert" the woman is now "overreacting" or can't take a joke, or can't take a compliment, or... *insert dismissive put-down of choice*. And effectively the woman who stands up now becomes the pariah. Which is just another way of keeping victims quiet and essentially cooperating with the abusers. Which in the end maintains the status quo, keeps us all comfortably in cognitive dissonance, and no one has to face their complicity or outright abuse.

@emmaviolet I agree with this point you're making that we have to take sexual abuse and victimization seriously but I think you need to be careful about making assumptions about how people handle it. Victims get enough shit as it is. 
I was abused for years by a male official. My parents both knew this man was abusing little girls but refused to remove me from the situation. I still don't know what they were thinking, I suspect there was a factor of not wanting to rock the boat so to speak, maybe they didn't want to admit there could be a problem there. I don't know. But I do know my parent's lack of advocacy for their daughter was perhaps even more damaging than the abuse itself. Which is why I have to point out that this attitude of women not knowing how to take a joke etc. is so damaging.

However, let me be very clear. I am not a victim. I am not weak, I don't lack self-worth. Does my past affect me? Absolutely. I'm not easily intimidated, I don't put up with any shit, and I am a fierce child advocate and have been my entire adult life. As an adult I get to decide how I'm going to be affected and I would not appreciate some stranger telling me how I was affected.

You have a good message, but you can't tell others how they're coping


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

When a guy tried that on me, I was a barmaid. He didn't find it funny when I barred him from the pub and got the bouncer to throw him out. And when his friends protested it was just a joke I told them they could go as well. They all went quiet and stayed there drinking. .

But I was in a position to do something about it cos I had a bloke like a brick outhouse backing me up. In your friend's position, the man had so little respect for her whatever she did wouldn't make any difference. 

And this is the thing. No matter how much 'woe is me the world has gone mad!' we may indulge in, no-one has the right to degrade anyone else that way. He thought it was funny. I thought he's a prick. He doesn't care what I think because he thinks he has the right to do it anyway. That is where the offence lies.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> It is true if you are subjected to enough abuse, as a child, and as an adult, it has this effect on you. You actually don't see it as being that bad, you feel that it was fine, it's what you're worth. that's all I was saying.


You cannot state that as fact in every case or even in most cases. It may have had that effect on you but it would have the very reverse effect on me

However, depending on the severity I would either deal with it myself (which I have a lot) or report it if repeated or severe. I've never had cause to follow up once I'd dealt with it


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Again it depends on context surely, if you know the person makes silly comments about his willy on a regular basis or invites adult women to warm their hands down his trousers I'm not sure I would feel the need to report them


OK, this I don't understand. Why would you consider someone who indulged in inappropriate sexually suggestive behaviour on a regular basis as in less need of reporting than someone who made one faux pas?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Very much agree.
> Though to be fair the poster did say this behavior was wrong.
> 
> But yes, this needs to be emphasized.
> ...


My God Ouesi, I can completely understand why your parents would damage you more than the abuse as they should be the ones to advocate for you, and I personally can emphasise, although I won't go into it on here, but my family were always ones to not the rock the boat, it was always about what other people would think, or if you're out, that other people were looking if you say or do anything!
I'm sorry you had to go through anything like that.

Just to be clear, I don't think you a victim, nor weak, nor everyone lacks self worth who has been through abuse of any kind, that was not my point at all. It was the point that if you believe that abuse is fine and in any way acceptable, then you are not valuing yourself as highly as you should, because that's not something you should ever feel is just a way of life.
Moving on from it is different, as is not letting it define you and not looking back. Working with abuse victims, overcoming my situations, I identified something, but in no way intended to victim shame or anything to that degree, more wanting to highlight the poster is worth more than believing that, and not to believe the same for fellow victims.

My reaction may have been too sharp, too blunt, I am very often guilty of that, as I said, I was shaking when I read that post. Abuse leaves it's scars on everyone, even ones who believe otherwise. I just couldn't agree with it, and the casual way of telling victims to laugh it off, or all in a day, about sexual assault/abuse. As I said, I was shaking at that, which made me want to impart the fact that that is most likely a symptom of abuse, which isn't known or even thought or talked about, and that doesn't go hand in hand with feeling like a victim at all, but it is there, without even realising it's why you believe certain things are acceptable.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

ouesi said:


> But with this attitude of complicity, if a woman turns to the man and says "get your boner off of me you pervert" the woman is now "overreacting" or can't take a joke, or can't take a compliment, or... *insert dismissive put-down of choice*. And effectively the woman who stands up now becomes the pariah.


I have never come across this reaction from either the men I have (usually loudly) put in their place or anyone else in the vicinity. 
The men have usually slunk off embarrassed or given me far more respect going forward.
Never have I felt belittled or embarrassed or ridiculed for sticking up for myself when abused


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Jesthar said:


> OK, this I don't understand. Why would you consider someone who indulged in inappropriate sexually suggestive behaviour on a regular basis as in less need of reporting than someone who made one faux pas?


Context. Intent. Every situation is different.


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2017)

emmaviolet said:


> Abuse leaves it's scars on everyone, even ones who believe otherwise.


Yes, it's much like the discussion on spanking children. There is a meme floating around that says something like: "I was spanked and I turned out fine." "Clearly you are not fine if you think hitting children is okay."

It's very easy to say "well that happened to me and I'm fine, therefore you'll get over it." On that one hand, this *can* be a helpful message - I survived and thrived, and you will too. 
On the other hand, we have to be very careful to not sound like we are excusing the abuse or failing to address it.

And the how of addressing abusive, even inappropriate behavior is really a bugaboo isn't it? 
Maybe I'm trying too hard for a comparison here, but this whole conversation kind of reminds me of the "right" way to protest conversation we have going on right now in the US.

For those who don't know, Colin Kaepernick is an American football player who in early 2016 chose to protest police brutality by taking a knee during the national anthem at the start of a national football game. A protest he continues to do and has been joined by numerous others.
There is a very large and vocal group who says "it's fine for him to protest, but this was not the right way to do it." Which raises the question, what IS the right way to protest abuse of those in power?

Trevor Noah has a hilarious but deeply sobering monologue on this: 





So I ask the same about women (and men) standing up to inappropriate advances and sexual behavior. What IS the right way to say "no"? If I tell the jerk on the bus to get his disgusting boner off of me, I'm overreacting and being confrontational, or my favorite, being a hysterical woman 
If I say something and the guy laughs it off and I don't accept his fauxpology I'm being an unreasonable bitch.
If I say nothing I'm complicit, maybe I even liked it. 
If I say nothing at the time and decide later it was bothersome enough to report and report it, I'm holding a grudge. 
Perhaps I should be grateful for any male attention at all, I mean, look at me, who would want to get with *that* right? 
You see where I'm going.... What is the right way to tell someone that you're not okay with their inappropriate behavior?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

ouesi said:


> You see where I'm going.... What is the right way to tell someone that you're not okay with their inappropriate behavior?


Whatever the situation requires or what methods are open to you at the time. Mild abuse can be handled with mild reaction, full sexual abuse should be handled very differently


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2017)

rona said:


> I have never come across this reaction from either the men I have (usually loudly) put in their place or anyone else in the vicinity.
> The men have usually slunk off embarrassed or given me far more respect going forward.
> Never have I felt belittled or embarrassed or ridiculed for sticking up for myself when abused


Do you realize how this comes across?
"It has never happened to me" puts in to question experiences that differ.
"I put men in their place and they respect me more for it" makes those who have had a different reaction question themselves - what did they do wrong? (Hint: nothing, the man being inappropriate was in the wrong.)
"I've never felt belittled or embarrassed or ridiculed." Wonderful, but many women are and do feel that way, their experience is every bit as valid.

I know you'll respond by saying I just don't get you, but I feel it needs to be said for those who might be reading but not contributing. That you have never had any issues doesn't negate the fact that many women and men do, and these attitudes need acknowledging, addressing and let's hope, changing.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Yes, it's much like the discussion on spanking children. There is a meme floating around that says something like: "I was spanked and I turned out fine." "Clearly you are not fine if you think hitting children is okay."
> 
> It's very easy to say "well that happened to me and I'm fine, therefore you'll get over it." On that one hand, this *can* be a helpful message - I survived and thrived, and you will too.
> On the other hand, we have to be very careful to not sound like we are excusing the abuse or failing to address it.
> ...


You are completely right, one of my most hated phrases are 'I had it done to me and I'm fine' on any occasion, because, like you say, if you think hitting children is fine, then there's issues there. We're, most of us, scarred from many things, but we just have to go on, and learn to live and then thrive with what's gone before.

I'm very aware of Colin, I've been following it very closely actually, and the whole political situation over there. I don't know if you've seen the drawing a young woman has done which describes what you're talking about here, it's a slave on the floor, a black man at the bar and Colin on his knee, and each time is a white man screaming at them to get up. It's heartbreaking, but very apt. A black man protests and they are shamed, told they should respect being 'privileged' as if they should be grateful to even be free, let alone have the audacity to earn a lot of money (irony seems to elude the president). The whole inmates statement last week was another low point in all of this.

There is no way to win at the moment, whenever there isn't equality, it will continue. There's too many people who are so quick to dismiss it all, you cannot take a joke, you're not allowed to even breathe near a woman, you're too fluffy and soft, toughen up.
When you have someone like Judy Dench saying she has sympathy for her friends, the sexual abusers, and when you have someone who has confessed to it in the white house, and not just his assaults, he's actually admitted to walking in on teenagers on purpose who are naked in his pageants, it's a very sorry situation.

I do feel there's a sea change though, it feels like we may be able to change things. Things have to change, and I think it has to start with the younger generation. I was thinking about this the other day, at my secondary school, what most of us girls had to contend with was very abusive behaviour looking back, the way the boys touched us all, grabbing at us as ways to detect who was wearing bras, we all kind of just took it as normal behaviour of boys to girls, there was actually a few assaults, but the girls were either called sluts for it, or frigid. I don't know if it was just my school, it was a lot of bad, non consensual behaviour, shrugged off as boys being boys. Maybe from a young age both girls and boys should be taught about respecting other's personal space, making sure they are confident in themselves and also have really open dialogue with parents, or at least somebody. I know people of my age are mostly not accepting now as just one of those things, they are identifying it as the serious issue it is, and those younger more so, you can only hope it continues.


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2017)

rona said:


> Whatever the situation requires or what methods are open to you at the time. Mild abuse can be handled with mild reaction, full sexual abuse should be handled very differently


Well I'm glad it's clear to you. 
To me, and to most of us I would imagine, it's not so clear. 
What is "mild" abuse? 
What is a "mild" reaction? 
What is "full sexual abuse"? 
What does it mean to handle something very differently?

And still I'm no wiser as to the "right" way to handle being sexually abused.

I mean, that we're even having this conversation - how should victims handle being sexually abused, is in itself highly messed up. Why are we not having the conversation of let's not abuse people to begin with?
It's kind of bass ackwards isn't it?


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Can a man look at a woman now?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Well I'm glad it's clear to you.
> To me, and to most of us I would imagine, it's not so clear.
> What is "mild" abuse?
> What is a "mild" reaction?
> ...


Bolded part is perfect.

By even entertaining the idea that a victim has to do something like this, we're entertaining it as being the norm to be abused.

We are also putting the onus on the victim to take full responsibility, and thereby to do nothing, to be struck dumb by such behaviour is wrong, and therefore it's your fault, and not the person who is really to blame, the abuser. We're asking the victims to take responsibility and then blame in a way.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

I am seriously concerned how many people can’t differentiate context, intent, and positions of relative power in these incidents.

If speaking up is going to make you a professional “pariah” then no matter how relentless or serious it is then a person is unlikely to speak up.

The reason people are speaking up now in these situations is because they are no longer vulnerable people. They are in positions of power themselves, or they have more of a voice available to them. It’s not about dragging up the past it’s about changing artitudes and culture NOW. 
I would be mortified if the young lady working with our technicians had to deal with some of the crap I did at her age... and I am passionate about that.

I have had everything from a friendly hug or contact with colleagues, I engage in blue banter where it is appropriate and I have the kind of relationship with the person that allows for that kind of thing without anyone being upset or uncomfortable by it, and I have had the gross unwanted attention, contact all the way up to actual assault. With some people no matter how many times you tell them to fk off, the reward of their actions is stronger... and as I discovered later on a formal complaint also went nowhere.

I am not a precious snowflake, most my mates are men. I have handled myself in engineering and on building sites. I had my boots nailed to the ceiling or toolbox locked with 55 locks and given a pile of keys... it’s all part of the engineering world. Even my nickname was horrendous. 
And NOTHING got to me, but the continued sexual harassment..... THAT got to me. 
I don’t speak up now to go find a 60yo man and ruin his marriage or publically shame him or have him charged. It’s not even about me. It’s about the girl I now manage and how I will not have her made to feel like a piece of meat for the boys entertainment. 

Hollywood and governments are now finally taking this seriously because hoards of people are bringing up serious allegations. It’s not about knee touching (no way he quit just over that, there will be more under the surface), it’s about making young girls but their bosses sex toys, or do naked lines ups, or be told you won’t have a career if you don’t do what they say and undertake a sex act. It’s 2017 FFS and only now are they taking it seriously because of the reems of historical abuse of young people.

Minimising it to “what we can’t look now” or “can’t even hug a colleague” is like comparing apples and oranges. They are not and can not be conflated in a very serious issue that exists in certain industries.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Also to add, the story about the pervs on the bus some pages back. This is absolutely a crime and so prevelant still today that the TFL and British transport police actively encourage people to report sexual assault, harassment or abuse on public transport. There was a massive campaign when I last worked in London (men that have boners on train and rub them up women, it's gross... or grab their boobs, between the legs etc - very often the victim is stunned and just tries to quietly move away)



> *Report it to stop it*
> We understand that if you experience unwanted sexual behaviour, you might want to forget about it and move on. You're not alone, many people don't report.
> 
> However, reporting it can help us to stop it. Every report builds a picture for us and every bit of detail brings us one step closer to finding the offender and bringing them to justice.
> ...


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Dr Pepper said:


> Is the way the way world going, no touching dancing!! All those nasty perverted men forcing the women to dance and be touched by them, disgraceful.


I am talking about the sexual objectification of young men by older women in exactly the same way that used to happen to young women. I said nothing about "nasty perverted men" and was talking about the way all of the judges and presenters leer, and the fact that it is now acceptable apparently to discuss a male body in ways that would get you sacked if it was a female one. Sorry if that wasn't clear.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Jonescat said:


> I am talking about the sexual objectification of young men by older women in exactly the same way that used to happen to young women. I said nothing about "nasty perverted men" and was talking about the way all of the judges and presenters leer, and the fact that it is now acceptable apparently to discuss a male body in ways that would get you sacked if it was a female one. Sorry if that wasn't clear.


Ok, I read it wrong, sorry.


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2017)

grumpy goby said:


> I would be mortified if the young lady working with our technicians had to deal with some of the crap I did at her age... and I am passionate about that.





grumpy goby said:


> It's not even about me. It's about the girl I now manage and how I will not have her made to feel like a piece of meat for the boys entertainment.


This <3 <3 <3


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Jonescat said:


> I am talking about the sexual objectification of young men by older women in exactly the same way that used to happen to young women. I said nothing about "nasty perverted men" and was talking about the way all of the judges and presenters leer, and the fact that it is now acceptable apparently to discuss a male body in ways that would get you sacked if it was a female one. Sorry if that wasn't clear.


And this does happen. We had a whole packing floor that the young apprentices were scared to go to cos the women in there were brutal. I used to go instead, I did 95% of all the breakdowns in the area and the lads were embarrassed to tell the bosses that they were scared of the women there! Absolutely not acceptable, and they had been that way for years.

I guess the difference for them was I actually put myself between them and the agressers. I never received the same consideration, despite my discomfort being well known.


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2017)

grumpy goby said:


> I guess the difference for them was I actually put myself between them and the agressers. I never received the same consideration, despite my discomfort being well known.


And this is an excellent point as well. 
Those of us in positions of power or in a place where we can stand up for those who might not be able to, ALSO have a responsibility.

How many of us have seen sexual harassment and abuse happen and look the other way? Or assume that the person experiencing the harassment will handle it?
If you are in a place in your life where you can stand up for others, you should - IMHO of course


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## CRL (Jan 3, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> That did make me laugh.
> 
> This isn't funny, though. A friend of mine , back in the 90s , one of the blokes in her office said I bet you a fiver I can make your boobs move without touching them and she said ok because she thought there's no way he can do that . Then he grabbed her boobs and gave her the fiver and said That was worth it
> 
> Shes a tough cookie but was upset by it , she didn't report it because she felt silly


This happened to me when I was 18 with my driving instructor. But after that he begged for me to let him 'have a play'. I felt so uncomfortable about it so I've never told anyone, intact your the first.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@CRL I'm sorry to hear that .  I hope it's helped to say this happened to you .


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Well I'm glad it's clear to you.
> To me, and to most of us I would imagine, it's not so clear.
> What is "mild" abuse?
> What is a "mild" reaction?
> ...


This conversation is highlighting to me that what some class as abuse another will see as harmless banter or high jinks. 
A person having a laugh with a colleague is now expected to know the sensibilities of the person he is having a banter with.

I worked with a woman once who was a vivacious, curvy, flirtatious person. She dealt with customers individually who came in regularly and yes she laughed along flirtatiously with most of them, men and women alike.
One day one of the chaps overstepped the mark by going behind the counter to give her a cuddle, he wasn't being predatory or pushy or sexual (It was Xmas). What he didn't know and obviously hadn't crossed his mind,was that she has previously in her life been raped.
As soon as he had any idea that he was upsetting her he backed up and left. However,what he left in his wake was a very traumatised woman, shaking in fear.

So, this man is now classed as having sexually abused someone?


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

CRL said:


> This happened to me when I was 18 with my driving instructor. But after that he begged for me to let him 'have a play'. I felt so uncomfortable about it so I've never told anyone, intact your the first.


Gross.


rona said:


> This conversation is highlighting to me that what some class as abuse another will see as harmless banter or high jinks.
> A person having a laugh with a colleague is now expected to know the sensibilities of the person he is having a banter with.
> 
> I worked with a woman once who was a vivacious, curvy, flirtatious person. She dealt with customers individually who came in regularly and yes she laughed along flirtatiously with most of them, men and women alike.
> ...


The difference is he recognised that he overstepped the mark, backed away (and I assume apologised!). A genuine, innocent, mistake which was acted upon the second there was indication that something was amiss.

This is not the same as people using positions of power to abuse or harass. These people do not care if the receiver is upset by the incident...

Like I said.... context and intent are absolutely key. This example had neither the context nor intent for abuse... just misunderstanding.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

ouesi said:


> How many of us have seen sexual harassment and abuse happen and look the other way? Or assume that the person experiencing the harassment will handle it?


I have always stood up for people being abused in any form since I was 11years old when one of my friends started to be bullied at school through to a chap with learning disabilities at my last job.

Some people can't handle situations for whatever reason and it's up to others to try and help


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

grumpy goby said:


> Gross.
> 
> The difference is he recognised that he overstepped the mark, backed away (and I assume apologised!). A genuine, innocent, mistake which was acted upon the second there was indication that something was amiss.
> 
> ...


He was branded a sexual predator 

This is the slippery slope where decent people are stigmatised

Yes people need protecting but we have to make sure it doesn't go too far


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

rona said:


> He was branded a sexual predator


By who? Did the lady in question make a complaint?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

grumpy goby said:


> By who? Did the lady in question make a complaint?


By work colleagues and her boss. You just couldn't ignore her reaction and the man was banned from the place

Just imagine for a minute how he felt!


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

rona said:


> By work colleagues and her boss. You just couldn't ignore her reaction and the man was banned from the place


An unfortunate lesson I guess to not approach women you don't know *that* well and go in for potentially unwanted physical contact (especially while they are at work..)

Unfortunate for the chap, if it genuinely was innocent, it seem isolated though. I guess she must suffer from some sort of PTSD type issue and he was banned to protect her from further episodes?

This is not representative of the way things are in general though I would say.

It's not like he's been reported to the police, charged or put on any kind of register...I assume they wouldn't ban a customer for shits and giggles.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

grumpy goby said:


> An unfortunate lesson I guess to not approach women you don't know *that* well and go in for potentially unwanted physical contact (especially while they are at work..)
> 
> Unfortunate for the chap, if it genuinely was innocent, it seem isolated though. I guess she must suffer from some sort of PTSD type issue and he was banned to protect her from further episodes?
> 
> ...


He very nearly was reported to the police.

The trouble is, I've seen almost as much of this type of thing as I have had sexual advances from men. That is what has formed my opinion on this.
I know two decent men very well and they both say they wouldn't feel able to help a child in distress any more. That has to be wrong!


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

rona said:


> He very nearly was reported to the police.
> 
> The trouble is, I've seen almost as much of this type of thing as I have had sexual advances from men. That is what has formed my opinion on this.
> I know two decent men very well and they both say they wouldn't feel able to help a child in distress any more. That has to be wrong!


And that is the unfortunate side effect of the situation. It's is sad. But that's due to parents attitudes towards strange men, not a workplace issue. Trash media has more to blame there than anything else I think.

But it is a very real issue in certain institutions and I have seen too many female colleagues drop their careers because of the accepted sexualised environments they have had to work in, and that has framed MY view.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

grumpy goby said:


> But it is a very real issue in certain institutions and I have seen too many female colleagues drop their careers because of the accepted sexualised environments they have had to work in, and that has framed MY view.


First of I am male. In all the work environments I have been in it has been clear that any sexual harassment of any kind was not acceptable and would lead to instant dismissal. Did it happen, no idea but I would like to think not. When it comes down to it most men I know are decent people and this is being forgotten.



grumpy goby said:


> This is not representative of the way things are in general though I would say.


Not as uncommon as you think. There are no protections in place for those falsely accused and it will ruin their lives. Media also has a role here with presumption of innocence forgotten.

So I wonder if women can come up with new "rules" for men. What is considered "sexual harrassment" has apparantly now changed to be even something as trivial to asking someone out. It's unwanted attention and applicable for the "me too" tag. It's also been semi-seriously raised that nowadays men need a legal contract to spend the night with a woman. Is this really the way we are heading?

I'm intrigued how many women have considered their own attitudes and behaviour towards men on things like hen nights?

I'm not denying sexual harrassment happens and should be highlighted and punished. Wondering if this is now simply becoming a witch hunt demonizing men in general rather than an effort to provide education and long term solutions.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Why are you asking women to teach men how to behave properly? Are men not capable of working it out for themselves? The only woman who has a duty to teach you good behaviour is your mother. The rest of us shouldn't need to educate you.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Mirandashell said:


> Why are you asking women to teach men how to behave properly? Are men not capable of working it out for themselves? The only woman who has a duty to teach you good behaviour is your mother. The rest of us shouldn't need to educate you.


Well I was brought up where asking someone out was acceptable. Nowadays it isn't apparantly. I was brought up in a time where if a woman went to bed with you consensually it wasn't called rape the morning after. I was brought up in a time where if a woman said no they meant no and you respected that. If they said yes they meant yes.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Goblin said:


> I'm not denying sexual harrassment happens and should be highlighted and punished. Wondering if this is now simply becoming a witch hunt demonizing men in general rather than an effort to provide education and long term solutions.


I must concede that you have a fair point. These are some of the _front page_ headlines I spotted just today:

_The Times_: 'Fallon sex assault claim.'
_Mirror:_ 'Top jockey's sex attack on woman rider.'
_The Sun:_ 'Tackle Flasher Evans.' (Dead classy front page headline that.)
_Daily Torygraph:_ ''Serious allegation' about Tory MP passed on to police.'

Saving the best until last: and this will have @stockwellcat. heading for the pub!! Yes, *the B word*!! Just when you thought it was safe to log on.
_The New York Times:_ 'Sex scandal and the cost for 'Brexit.''

And_ DM_ is full of 'We need to talk about Kevin' Spacey. Countless articles about him in online _DM_.

These are what I noticed without actually opening a paper . . . plastered over the front pages.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Calvine said:


> Saving the best until last: and this will have @stockwellcat. heading for the pub!! Yes, *the B word*!! Just when you thought it was safe to log on.


:Hilarious:HilariousYou know me so well. Off to the pub I go :Hilarious:Hilarious


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I know where you can put them to warm them up


We had a farrier (aged about 70) who used to say exactly the same: 'Ooooh, isn't it cold out today lovey. . . can I put my hands inside your jodhpurs to warm them up?' A friend of mine who was with me one day said, after he'd left: ''Crikey, your farrier's a funny little man, isn't he!''


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Goblin said:


> Well I was brought up where asking someone out was acceptable. Nowadays it isn't apparantly. I was brought up in a time where if a woman went to bed with you consensually it wasn't called rape the morning after. I was brought up in a time where if a woman said no they meant no and you respected that. If they said yes they meant yes.


Sounds to me like you are a decent bloke who already knows the 'rules'. It's the men who don't that are the problem. And to be honest, false rape claims are rare, a lot rarer than unreported rapes.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Mirandashell said:


> Sounds to me like you are a decent bloke who already knows the 'rules'. It's the men who don't that are the problem. And to be honest, false rape claims are rare, a lot rarer than unreported rapes.


I'm lucky, happily married and all this doesn't really affect me. I would hate to be a young lad looking to date currently with the increasingly toxic atmosphere regarding the interaction between sexes. Bad enough in terms of anxiety in my day


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

It's not toxic. It's just a case of men treating women with respect. Is that really so difficult to do?


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Mirandashell said:


> It's not toxic. It's just a case of men treating women with respect. Is that really so difficult to do?


No, and the very vast majority do.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Dr Pepper said:


> No, and the very vast majority do.


 Yes they do. We are discussing the ones that don't. And unfortunately there are no distinguishing marks.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Mirandashell said:


> Yes they do. We are discussing the ones that don't. And unfortunately there are no distinguishing marks.


My mistake then, you just said "men", not "some men", not the "very small minority of men". You just keep referring to "men" as if we are all the same. We are not and it's insulting.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Sigh. We've been discussing the same subject for all seven pages of the thread so I took it as read that everyone would know. 

If this is going to get personal, then I'm going to step away as I'm not interested in that. I'll come back when it gets back on topic.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Mirandashell said:


> Sigh. We've been discussing the same subject for all seven pages of the thread so I took it as read that everyone would know.
> 
> If this is going to get personal, then I'm going to step away as I'm not interested in that. I'll come back when it gets back on topic.


It's just you've never said a good word towards men, you've just referred to us all as a sexual abusers/harasser. I think everyone else has put the subject in context. It's getting a bit tiresome.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Dr Pepper said:


> It's just you've never said a good word towards men, you've just referred to us all as a sexual abusers/harasser. I think everyone else has put the subject in context. It's getting a bit tiresome.





Mirandashell said:


> Sounds to me like you are a decent bloke who already knows the 'rules'. It's the men who don't that are the problem.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> It's just you've never said a good word towards men, you've just referred to us all as a sexual abusers/harasser. I think everyone else has put the subject in context. It's getting a bit tiresome.


 I think we should be able to have this particular discussion without the need for a disclaimer.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Here's a thing, the way forward isn't it?http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5050887/What-women-gain-squawking-sex-pests-Niqab.html


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> Here's a thing, the way forward isn't it?http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5050887/What-women-gain-squawking-sex-pests-Niqab.html


There are no words.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

It's the Daily Mail. I didn't even bother looking. I suspect Dr Pepper is on a wind up so best to ignore it.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2017)

bearcub said:


> There are no words.


It's meant to get a reaction 
But even if it's a joke, this is exactly the sort of thing that does keep so many women quiet about real abuse. And it's meant to. If we make a big enough deal about those "squawking" women, shame them enough in a public way, it has the effect of making sure other women don't speak up. Why would they? They'll just be met with ridicule and attacks instead of understanding and compassion.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

ouesi said:


> It's meant to get a reaction
> But even if it's a joke, this is exactly the sort of thing that does keep so many women quiet about real abuse. And it's meant to. If we make a big enough deal about those "squawking" women, shame them enough in a public way, it has the effect of making sure other women don't speak up. Why would they? They'll just be met with ridicule and attacks instead of understanding and compassion.


What is needed is balance, something people are not calling for in the current environment.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2017)

Goblin said:


> What is needed is balance, something people are not calling for in the current environment.


What would balance look like?

Serious question. Because from where I'm standing, right now, most women are terrified to report an actual rape, let alone incidents of sexual harassment in the workplace. They second guess themselves, they blame themselves, they tell themselves it was no big deal and the abuse does not get reported, and the abuser continues to get away with the behavior. Those who see the abuser do it keep quiet and say nothing too.

So what does "balance" look like?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> Here's a thing, the way forward isn't it?http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5050887/What-women-gain-squawking-sex-pests-Niqab.html


Appalling.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

@Goblin Did you ask for balance before you thought that men are beginning to get the crappy end of the stick? Did you protest on behalf of women being abused? Did you protest against men that use their powerful positions to abuse other people? How do you feel about Kevin Spacey as compared to Harvey Weinstein? These are genuine questions and I would be interested to see the answers. But obviously you don't have to answer them, it's your choice.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2017)

Anyone remember the Brock Turner case? 
Star athlete at prestigious Stanford University, rapes an unconscious woman behind a dumpster and gets 6 months in jail. Released after 3 months. 
There was outcry that he was a great athlete, Olympic potential, great guy, and this woman ruined his life. This woman. Who's only crime was to underestimate her alcohol intake and tolerance. She did nothing but refuse his advances at the party they both attended, and then when he found her later, unconscious, instead of getting help for her, he raped her. Yet in large part, she was seen as the one in the wrong. Social media and news headlines attacked her. I can't even imagine what it must have been like for that woman to endure. And any other woman going through the process of trying to bring justice to a male attacker. This is the world we live in. And it's not a friendly world to those who dare to speak up about injustices.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

ouesi said:


> What would balance look like?
> 
> Serious question. Because from where I'm standing, right now, most women are terrified to report an actual rape, let alone incidents of sexual harassment in the workplace. They second guess themselves, they blame themselves, they tell themselves it was no big deal and the abuse does not get reported, and the abuser continues to get away with the behavior. Those who see the abuser do it keep quiet and say nothing too.
> 
> So what does "balance" look like?


Notice you pick something which is at one end of the scale which everyone should I hope, say is wrong.

However balance... where witch hunts aren't the name of the game and applauded by other women with no connection to the incident. Maybe you haven't come across any incidents where men have been falsely accused and their lives ruined but I have. Male or female, "innocent until proven guilty".

Although I dislike her Edwina Curry stated the following:


> I think this is getting a bit ridiculous. We are tasked with making decisions about whether this country goes to war. If we can't distinguish between politely asking somebody if they'd like to go for a drink and raping somebody in a private meeting, then this country has a bigger problem than anybody thought.


I mentioned this before as this came up on my social media.. sexual harrassment as being asked out  This was reality, not something being raised as distraction by higher powers. Oh I know it's difficult as feelings and intent are not tangible things you can actually see. Women need to know to say "no". Men I know would respect that. On the flip side I've known a woman to apologise a week after an event for pushing things as she didn't realise a man was "attached" until mutual friends pointed it out afterwards. It goes both ways and I hope a man would be prepared to do the same thing an apologise and for it to be accepted gracefully.

The phrase "victim blaming" is used too frequently. People have the responsibility to be responsible for themselves. Maybe you never saw http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-39241470 What the judge states is common sense but when debate is shut down there is a problem.

I go to some places where dress can be, let's say provocative. It's interesting that in these settings women I know feel comfortable and safe.
http://www.wave-of-darkness.de/wp-content/gallery/mera-luna-2016/meraluna16_25.jpg for example.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

So the answers to my questions are all 'no', then? Not sure why you avoided the Weinstein/Spacey comment as the actions by those men are very relevant to the topic of the thread. 

The point I'm trying to make is that complaining that men are not getting away with bad behaviour anymore and this is bad thing is not really going to wash. And turning it back on women by saying victim-blaming is an avoidance of responsibilty will also not wash. You haven't said that any man we have been discussing was wrong. You talk about the men you know who don't abuse and harass women. Good for them. But what about the ones who do? They are the ones this thread is about. And the ones that you are avoiding talking about.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Omg! Did you hear the latest? Another cover up by the BBC, yes it's true been going on for over 40 years
The complainant's names are





Sooty and Sweep


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Mirandashell said:


> So the answers to my questions are all 'no', then? Not sure why you avoided the Weinstein/Spacey comment as the actions by those men are very relevant to the topic of the thread.


Maybe because I never answered your questions.



> The point I'm trying to make is that complaining that men are not getting away with bad behaviour anymore and this is bad thing is not really going to wash. And turning it back on women by saying victim-blaming is an avoidance of responsibilty will also not wash


Where have I excused criminal or bad behavior?

Ah.. you play the "victim blaming" card as well. Well done. So tell me, if you are burgled as you've left your house wide open is it victim blaming to state you should have locked the door? Doesn't mean a criminal act has not happened, that the perpetrator is not a criminal. If I walk through certain areas in say latex and a skirt while going to a club can I expect to run into trouble or do I change on the train or my destination? If I get beaten up walking does this mean the people doing so aren't criminals, of course not. Does this mean I shouldn't take responsibility for myself? Why should women be different?



Mirandashell said:


> You haven't said that any man we have been discussing was wrong.


Quite correct I haven't stated anyone by name. To me that is so blatantly obvious it shouldn't need comment.



Mirandashell said:


> How do you feel about Kevin Spacey as compared to Harvey Weinstein?


If allegations are true, no different. For both I hope they are charged and don't get off due to "sexual addiction" mental problem. (another topic but that is not in my mind an excuse). Still feel Roman Polansky should be extradited and put on trial even though he paid a victim off. Interesting that Weinstein is effectively simply doing the same thing yet Polansky is being ignored as "having got away with it". Possibly not to the same scale either. Another can of worms but interesting that many who support Polansky have been so vocal about denouncing Weinstein.



> You talk about the men you know who don't abuse and harass women. Good for them.


The majority of men but you don't seem to want to accept that.



Mirandashell said:


> @Goblin Did you ask for balance before you thought that men are beginning to get the crappy end of the stick? Did you protest on behalf of women being abused? Did you protest against men that use their powerful positions to abuse other people?


I've always been brought up that men and women should basically be treated the same, with respect and curtesy. It's never been a case of people pushing men vs women. I have fortunately not been in any situation where people have used power to exploit those under them. I cannot say one way or the other what my response would be in all honesty. I would challenge anyone to know what they would do when confronted with the situation in reality.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)




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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Goblin said:


> *I have fortunately not been in any situation where people have used power to exploit those under them*. I cannot say one way or the other what my response would be in all honesty. I would challenge anyone to know what they would do when confronted with the situation in reality.


And there's the nub. You haven't been in this situation and have admitted you wouldn't know what to do if you were. Many of the posters on this thread, including me, have been in exactly that situation and had to deal with it. In reality. So maybe telling us that how we deal with it is wrong is not a good idea.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Mirandashell said:


> And there's the nub. You haven't been in this situation and have admitted you wouldn't know what to do if you were. Many of the posters on this thread, including me, have been in exactly that situation and had to deal with it. In reality.


In case you missed it I've seen the result of a man (actually family member) being falsely accused. The other end of the spectrum.



Mirandashell said:


> So maybe telling us that how we deal with it is wrong is not a good idea.


Have you considered that neither is pushing the idea that all men are criminals.

Balance.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

You keep saying that but I haven't. This thread is about men who have power and abuse other people. If all you have to answer it is a false allegation, on top of your ignorance of the issues involved, then I think our conversation has gone about as far as it can go. I shall wait and come back on the thread when we get back on topic.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Mirandashell said:


> This thread is about men who have power and abuse other people.


Actually this thread is about the government which I don't believe includes Weinstein. Can include the current witch hunt though of those guilty and potentially not guilty. Not accepting another's experience because it shows the other side of the coin and calling it ignorance says a lot. I'l leave it there aswell as it's an emotional subject.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

It would be interesting for the male forum users who have contributed to this thread to go back and consider their collective contribution to the discussion. Highlights include a picture of two women with their breasts visible and the statement "its not all men" repeated over and over again.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

How many men on Petforums would be provoked into attacking a woman because she’s drunk, or wearing latex and a skirt on her way to a club?

Hopefully the answer is zero. 

It’s no more down to what she’s wearing, or her state of mind, than it would be when a 14 year old boy is stabbed to death on a stairwell. Have the misfortune to cross the path of some pervert when you’re alone and it wouldn’t matter if you’re a teetotal, wearing a woolly jumper, jeans and a long coat. It should be made very clear, that there is no excuse for it, no mitigating circumstance, no reason for a reduced sentence. You attack someone with a knife, or your bits, you’re booked.

I would agree that it’s not quite what the thread is about though.

Women have suffered assaults from over familiar men with wandering hands for too long, it’s about time they’re being brought to book and told in no uncertain terms that it’s unacceptable behaviour. Not as serious as a rape of course, but it needed to be said. We’re no longer in the times of innuendo and Benny Hill. So pack it in and that goes for both sides. Cackling hordes of women assaulting some young lad at work is just as unacceptable.

Flirting, lame pick up lines and asking someone for a date should be clearly nothing like assault. Your target doesn’t want your attention, then ok, move along, but there’s no harm in asking.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

bearcub said:


> It would be interesting for the male forum users who have contributed to this thread to go back and consider their collective contribution to the discussion. Highlights include a picture of two women with their breasts visible and the statement "its not all men" repeated over and over again.


Yep and look at the context. These are women secure in where they are. Not afraid, not being abused, comfortable with themselves, their environment and the people around them. Nothing wrong with it unless YOU make an issue out of it. Thank you for demonstrating your own prejudice.

Oh it's explotation.. like http://www.wave-of-darkness.de/wp-content/gallery/mera-luna-2016/meraluna16_03.jpg

or what about http://galerie.hildesheimer-allgeme.../2011/Mera Luna/110813-Mera Luna 06 klein.jpg


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Goblin said:


> Yep and look at the context. These are women secure in where they are. Not afraid, not being abused, comfortable with themselves, their environment and the people around them. Nothing wrong with it unless YOU make an issue out of it. Thank you for demonstrating your own prejudice.


No, no prejudice from me. I question it because I fail to see the relevance of the picture to this thread. Do you just want people to know that you think you can recognise when women are comfortable?


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2017)

Goblin said:


> Notice you pick something which is at one end of the scale which everyone should I hope, say is wrong.


That's my whole point. 
One, it's not at the end of the scale. (Not really sure what scale we're talking about though TBH.)
Two, and very relevant to this thread, is that not everyone agreed that what the young man did was wrong. That was my whole point in bringing it up. There was a huge debate about how this star athlete who was smart enough to be at a prestigious university, a "good kid" couldn't possibly be a criminal. It was just a mistake, a misunderstanding, he was drunk... Excuse after excuse, and plenty of calling in to question of the woman he attacked. Had she set this all up, had she lured him, what did she think was going to happen when she got so sloppy drunk that she passed out?

So no, not everyone thinks that what the young man did was criminal. And it's an excellent example of this mentality that is still all to prevalent - among men AND women, that "boys will be boys" and you can't fault men for acting on their red-blooded masculine urges. Which is frankly as insulting to men as it is damaging to women.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

@Goblin I think these people's outfits (I take it at one of the legendary German festivals) look f***ing awesome. I still fail to see the relevance to this thread though?

Is the point you're trying to make that these people are not being harassed or abused? To demonstrate to the women on the forum that it is possible?!


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

bearcub said:


> No, no prejudice from me. I question it because I fail to see the relevance of the picture to this thread. Do you just want people to know that you think you can recognise when women are comfortable?


Relevence.. maybe you missed the bit about victim blaming and women should be able to feel secure anywhere. I agree that everyone should feel secure both men and women. I showed the image to show people can be extreme in certain environments and this is one example that I know of. These people posed for the photo, in fact they stand near the "entrance" to be seen by the media people there. However while fine at this location I wouldn't expect these people to feel/be secure in other locations wearing what they are. Niether would they actually pretend that would be the case. Adjustments and basic precautions need to be made.

As to recognition as to if they are comfortable, maybe because they actually wait for the media people to arrive. Could also have to do with the fact I've talked to them, asking one for permission to take a picture before 



ouesi said:


> That's my whole point.
> One, it's not at the end of the scale. (Not really sure what scale we're talking about though TBH.)


One end Rape (criminal act) other end asking someone out as unwanted attention which has been called sexual harrassment. The definition of sexual harrassment is fluid.



> So no, not everyone thinks that what the young man did was criminal. And it's an excellent example of this mentality that is still all to prevalent - among men AND women, that "boys will be boys" and you can't fault men for acting on their red-blooded masculine urges. Which is frankly as insulting to men as it is damaging to women.


No excuse no matter how promising the person's future is. However you still need to retain innocent until proven guilty. All for "crucifying" someone when found guilty but not trial through public opinion and social media.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

bearcub said:


> @Goblin I think these people's outfits (I take it at one of the legendary German festivals)


Quick aside.. Don't know about legendary, M'era Luna only 25K people so small enough I can still feel comfortable with. Also one of the few occasions I can dress up.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Goblin said:


> Relevence.. maybe you missed the bit about victim blaming and women should be able to feel secure anywhere. I agree that everyone should feel secure both men and women. I showed the image to show people can be extreme in certain environments and this is one example that I know of. These people posed for the photo, in fact they stand near the "entrance" to be seen by the media people there. However while fine at this location I wouldn't expect these people to feel/be secure in other locations wearing what they are. Niether would they actually pretend that would be the case. Adjustments and basic precautions need to be made.
> 
> As to recognition as to if they are comfortable, maybe because they actually wait for the media people to arrive. Could also have to do with the fact I've talked to them, asking one for permission to take a picture before
> 
> ...


So you are pointing out that people should dress appropriately to the environment they are in? This doesn't change the fact that clothing (or lack thereof) NEVER implies consent to touch, harass or make sexual suggestive comments. It's really that simple.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Can I just add with regards the common analogy of being a woman out alone at night wearing a short skirt is the equivalent of walking through a high crime area with a rolex watch on display... Yeah it's not. Breasts, legs etc are not objects, they are body parts.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

bearcub said:


> So you are pointing out that people should dress appropriately to the environment they are in? This doesn't change the fact that clothing (or lack thereof) NEVER implies consent to touch, harass or make sexual suggestive comments. It's really that simple.


No just as a man going through town dressed in a skirt doesn't imply he should be beaten up. It happens and men are expected and do take precautions and be sensible about it. Same should go with drinking too much.

It's been mentioned but in London, as a male try going from Victora station to Angel on the tube in latex and a skirt and come across a hen party  Doesn't happen as often obviously and does nothing to mitigate how wrong it is for men to degenerate women due to looks or what they are wearing. Just pointing out some of what women complain about, they also do. It's wrong no matter who does it.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

bearcub said:


> Breasts, legs etc are not objects, they are body parts.


that are often used to good effect to manipulate men


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Goblin said:


> No just as a man going through town dressed in a skirt doesn't imply he should be beaten up. It happens and men are expected and do take precautions and be sensible about it. Same should go with drinking too much.
> 
> It's been mentioned but in London, as a male try going from Victora station to Angel on the tube in latex and a skirt and come across a hen party  Doesn't happen as often obviously and does nothing to mitigate how wrong it is for men to degenerate women due to looks or what they are wearing. Just pointing out some of what women complain about, they also do. It's wrong no matter who does it.


Absolutely. The behaviour of those women was pathetic. I don't think the fact that men can also be victims of harassment, abuse and rape should be a caveat in this type of discussion.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2017)

Goblin said:


> The definition of sexual harrassment is fluid.


I don't know if it is different in the UK, but in the US, one very clear, non-fluid piece of the sexual harassment definition is that there has to be an imbalance of power. The person harassing has to be in a position to affect the other's employability, future in the company, etc. Note I used the word "person" because women can be charges with sexual harassment just as easily as men. It is just as much sexual harassment for a female boss to ask a male employee to take off his shirt (unless the job requires it) as it is for a man to ask a woman to do the same.



rona said:


> that are often used to good effect to manipulate men


Ugh. I hate this. Really. I find is hugely insulting to men TBH. Are you really suggesting that men are these helpless hormone driven Neanderthals that can't help themselves in the face of a bare boob?

It's bullshit. Men are perfectly capable of functioning like normal, enlightened human beings around bare body parts just as much as women are. To expect any less of them is demeaning.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Well said Jo Brand.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Totally agree. I applauded when she said that.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

ouesi said:


> It's bullshit. Men are perfectly capable of functioning like normal, enlightened human beings around bare body parts just as much as women are. To expect any less of them is demeaning.


Then a great deal demean themselves

I find it staggering how many women can ignore basic principles of nature


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2017)

rona said:


> Then a great deal demean themselves
> 
> I find it staggering how many women can ignore basic principles of nature


Really? "Basic principles of nature?" As in men are wild animals? 
Are you really suggesting that men have no self control? Have no ability to control their sexual urges? 
Because if you are, that's incredibly insulting and demeaning to men. And not true.

By that logic, a male paramedic working on an injured woman, who has to cut her clothes off in order to properly attend to her medical needs could somehow not help himself? By your logic male doctors should not be allowed to care for women at all because heaven forbid they see a boob or butt on an attractive woman. It just doesn't make sense and is not how men are made.

Until we lose this mentality that men are helpless victims of their sexual urges, both men and women will suffer.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

ouesi said:


> Really? "Basic principles of nature?" As in men are wild animals?
> Are you really suggesting that men have no self control? Have no ability to control their sexual urges?
> Because if you are, that's incredibly insulting and demeaning to men. And not true.
> 
> ...


Odd analogy and so far off the mark it's ridiculous. You are going for all men, not some, as well (don't worry you are not on your own there, doesn't make you right though). You totally missed the point Rona was making. And if you can't see that then I really do pity you. Actually I think I fear you more tha pity you.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2017)

Dr Pepper said:


> You totally missed the point Rona was making.


Then why don't you mansplain it for me?


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

ouesi said:


> Then why don't you mansplain it for me?


Because that very statement shows what a waste of time it'd be.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

ouesi said:


> I don't know if it is different in the UK, but in the US, one very clear, non-fluid piece of the sexual harassment definition is that there has to be an imbalance of power. The person harassing has to be in a position to affect the other's employability, future in the company, etc. Note I used the word "person" because women can be charges with sexual harassment just as easily as men. It is just as much sexual harassment for a female boss to ask a male employee to take off his shirt (unless the job requires it) as it is for a man to ask a woman to do the same..


In the UK the definition is this:
Sexual harassment is unwanted behaviour of a sexual nature which:

violates your dignity
makes you feel intimidated, degraded or humiliated
creates a hostile or offensive environment
No mention of power in the US sense.It can be, and often is, a peer.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2017)

Dr Pepper said:


> Because that very statement shows what a waste of time it'd be.


Figures. 
If you would get off the defensive for a second you'd realize I'm advocating FOR men in my posts. But yeah, I don't think anything useful will come from a discussion between us. Well, not for you at least. I and others will be entertained if nothing else.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Let's see if I read this correctly. Sex isn't used as a marketing tool at all as it simply does not or would not work.

If men/women could read the other sex and know what they were thinking life would have been a lot easier when dating. Problem is for the majority there cannot be fixed rules between two people. There are red lines which people should not cross. We've seen examples of those in media. The problem I have is that there's a grey line between acceptable and unacceptable behaviour between couples as they try to define their own boundaries between each other. I'd like to think I've never cross into unacceptable behaviour but this current environment makes me unsure. After all I've asked someone out and they've said no.. They may have considered me a pest, been intimidated by me whatever.

To me the issue is now not about Weinstein etc, that is simply wrong. With the "me to" hashtag the discussion is being pushed into a wider area which isn't simple.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2017)

Goblin said:


> Let's see if I read this correctly. Sex isn't used as a marketing tool at all as it simply does not or would not work.


That's not what I'm saying. 
Or are you suggesting that if a car is advertised with a scantily clad model you just wouldn't be able to help yourself and would find yourself buying the car without even realizing what you're doing? 
Of course not. Any intelligent person, even if they are swayed by subconscious suggestions, is also capable of stopping themselves from acting on them. I really don't see why this is such a hard concept. Seriously. Human beings are able to feel attraction and lust while not acting on it.



Goblin said:


> The problem I have is that there's a grey line between acceptable and unacceptable behaviour between couples as they try to define their own boundaries between each other. *I'd like to think I've never cross into unacceptable behaviour but this current environment makes me unsure.*


The fact that you are considering what is acceptable or not is good though isn't it? Isn't that all we can ask of others, to at least consider that their behavior might not be what they intended?

I think the fact that you clearly are willing to consider this, is 1) good evidence that you've probably not ever crossed the line, and 2) an excellent example of what we ALL should be doing. Reflecting on how we interact with others, especially those who might be in a real or perceived power imbalance, and assessing whether or not we need to change our behavior. That's where growth comes from. And as a society there is a need for us to grow in to better relationships, this will happen as we have these discussions and as we do exactly what you are doing, sit down and think honestly about how we interact with others and if we come to realize it's not appropriate, change.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

ouesi said:


> The fact that you are considering what is acceptable or not is good though isn't it? Isn't that all we can ask of others, to at least consider that their behavior might not be what they intended?


Disagree. When people are scared and doubt themselves to interact that isn't a good thing. It's bad enough already in today's society with people glued to phones rather than normal conversation and ability to take in someone's body language. The topic of sexual harrasment has lost that balance I mentioned earlier. Looking at it in general, not necessarily on this thread it's become one of men are simply sexual predators. I for one resent that impression.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Goblin said:


> There are red lines which people should not cross


That red line is also ever changing. People are being judged on todays red line


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> You totally missed the point Rona was making.


200,000 years of evolution wiped out on a whim


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2017)

rona said:


> 200,000 years of evolution wiped out on a whim


Yes, well, some of us believe humans are more than just our biology....


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2017)

Goblin said:


> Disagree. When people are scared and doubt themselves to interact that isn't a good thing. It's bad enough already in today's society with people glued to phones rather than normal conversation and ability to take in someone's body language. The topic of sexual harrasment has lost that balance I mentioned earlier. Looking at it in general, not necessarily on this thread it's become one of men are simply sexual predators. I for one resent that impression.


Yes, we will have to disagree. Growth is always dificult and some of what you are describing are in a way necessary growing pains of our society hopefully improving.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Yes, we will have to disagree. Growth is always dificult and some of what you are describing are in a way necessary growing pains of our society hopefully improving.


No you'll breed discontent and dismissal of the central problem achieving little compared to a balanced discussion on the problem. That's generally not simply on this forum which I think has shown different viewpoints quite well if people are prepared to consider things.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Yes, well, some of us believe humans are more than just our biology....


Yes but you are female and dismissing the biological imperative which is in most of the male population. It's not something that can be controlled with the brain in many circumstances. They may not act on it but it's still there and to ignore or deny it is a very very dangerous thing to do

I'm sure you could even find studies on it


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2017)

rona said:


> Yes but you are female


As are you. 
I am also a partner to a man and a mother to a young man and have many close friends who are male. And I find what you are suggesting really demeaning to men. Not to mention patently untrue.



rona said:


> and dismissing the biological imperative which is in most of the male population. It's not something that can be controlled with the brain in many circumstances. They may not act on it but it's still there and to ignore or deny it is a very very dangerous thing to do


Oh good grief. Men are not animals.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Now I'll say something before running and taking cover.. Fifty shades of grey and what it is percieved to include.. (okay haven't read it but from what I have heard and the sales figures)


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Off the topic maybe...but would anyone in Italy or France resign because they tried to kiss someone 15 years ago ( no matter which gender kissed which).
Used to go to Italy etc...for work trips .
In times of Cicciolina being their MP.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Goblin said:


> Now I'll say something before running and taking cover.. Fifty shades of grey and what it is percieved to include.. (okay haven't read it but from what I have heard and the sales figures)


What's that got to do with the price of fish? I thought we were talking about actions where one party does not consent ?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Jonescat said:


> What's that got to do with the price of fish? I thought we were talking about actions where one party does not consent ?


Power, Submission and Fantasy. Happy to be corrected, doesn't the main male character have the "power", doesn't the woman submit? Is that consent or is the book celebrating sexual harrassment? As I stated haven't read it but that is the impression I have. Am I alone in that impression?


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

The young women I know are insistent that it chronicles an abusive relationship and are furious about its popularity. They would agree with you that it is not a healthy relationship.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Oh good grief. Men are not animals.


Weeeell. Technically...

It's also true that some women use their looks and seductions to manipulate men. Look at Playboy. Old wotsisface wasn't with the bunnies for their brains and they weren't with him for his virile good looks.

Still no excuse for wandering hands, or unwanted attentions, but I do believe the casting couch was also used by women wanting to get ahead and they weren't victims.

It's all rather different to forcing your attention on an unwilling victim though.

I do agree that no 70 year old guy should have his life and reputation ruined because he touched some woman's knee in 1978 though. He wouldn't have been 70 then and a young guy patting a girl's backside was quite usual in those days. He might get a slap for it, but it wasn't unusual. Predatory behaviour would be something else.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Jonescat said:


> The young women I know are insistent that it chronicles an abusive relationship and are furious about its popularity. They would agree with you that it is not a healthy relationship.


Yet how many copies sold, ignoring film successful enough to spawn a sequel watched and read mainly by women . Isn't the impression I get vs it's popularity showing a mixed message about what is acceptable or dare I say wanted as fantasy?

I agree by the way, to me it sounds abusive which is why I raised it as I believe it does have a relevence to the topic under discussion. In no way am I condoning abusive behaviour or excusing it (sad I feel I have to add that).


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Goblin said:


> Yet how many copies sold, ignoring film successful enough to spawn a sequel watched and read mainly by women . Isn't the impression I get vs it's popularity showing a mixed message about what is acceptable or dare I say wanted as fantasy?
> 
> I agree by the way, to me it sounds abusive which is why I raised it as I believe it does have a relevence to the topic under discussion. In no way am I condoning abusive behaviour or excusing it (sad I feel I have to add that).


The more repression in RL the more fantasy? Mean Freudian repression.
For all genders.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Ah I am with you now  A bit like Wuthering Heights, but with added sauce.

Look up Nancy Friday - her first book had a lot of 50 shades stuff, her second not so much, because people's lives had changed in the interim and therefore so had their fantasies. Hopefully society is on that curve.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

There’s a lot of erotic fiction aimed at women. I haven’t read 50 shades of grey, but I presume it’s a modern version of the Story of O. Its fiction. It doesn’t mean women want to be humiliated and dominated by a stranger at a bar, or in the halls of Westminster lol.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

What women may or may not fantasise about is private, deeply personal and has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this thread. I'm shocked I even need to point that out.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Jonescat said:


> because people's lives had changed in the interim and therefore so had their fantasies. Hopefully society is on that curve.


Yet the abusive relationship in the book is not reviled or touted as such in today's society. I have seen more complaints about twilight and the fact that is an abusive relationship.



Elles said:


> There's a lot of erotic fiction aimed at women. I haven't read 50 shades of grey, but I presume it's a modern version of the Story of O. Its fiction. It doesn't mean women want to be humiliated and dominated by a stranger at a bar, or in the halls of Westminster lol.


Without condemnation of all abusive environments, where one is popular even encouraged, even if fiction or fantasy, people are sending a conflicting message about what should be accepted.



bearcub said:


> What women may or may not fantasise about is private, deeply personal and has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this thread. I'm shocked I even need to point that out.


Disagree, it's relevant to what is currently being discussed. My reasoning I have written directly above. Your comment demonstrates why I stated when first pointing it out I would "run and take cover". You are right it's personal and private which is why it's so dangerous. All people outside see is the acceptance of what should be considered an abusive relationship.

If women want to push change as quickly as possible they cannot encourage writing about an abusive relationship making it a "good thing" and then condemn other abusive relationships.

Edit: leaving it there. Know I am not making myself popular but doesn't invalidate my opinion. Night all.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Back to the title of this thread: *Not a good day for the government.
*
Has there been a single good day yet? Things just go from bad to worse. This is the most dangerously incompetent government in living memory, an utter shambles of a government.

First Priti Patel is exposed by the Guardian attendeding 12 meetings and engagements in Israel, including with one with Bibi, but no officials were present and no minutes kept! May doesn't sack her

Then that incompetent moron puts an innocent British woman's life at risk with a gaffe.

A serious blunder by @*BorisJohnson* that could have dire ramifications for Nazanin Ratcliffe, British mum held in an Iranian jail. He said she was 'training journalists in Iran'. She was not, and was actually on holiday. Statement from Thomson Reuters Foundation
*








*
No wonder we're sinking fast. Theres no one at the helm*.

Sam Coates Times‏Verified [email protected]SamCoatesTimes 11h11 hours ago 

And disbelief and despair from most Tories I talk to who often 
worry that - basically - Theresa isn't governing and 
there's a vacuum in No10
*


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Oh good grief. Men are not animals.


No but they do have uncontrolled urges that need addressing or *they* suffer consequences. It's just basic biology

How they address those urges are what differentiates them from other mammals but to deny they are there is still lunacy.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

rona said:


> No but they do have uncontrolled urges that need addressing or *they* suffer consequences. It's just basic biology


Actually basic biology is that both males and females have sexual urges ... in the name of procreation of course ....and in fact in nature it is invariably the female that is the more driven in this regard. Anyone ever watched a male dog when introduced to a female in season. It's the male that needs written instructions and the female who shows him how 

But back to humans.

I am male. Do I really have (sexual) urges that I can't control? Surely, if I had brought my son up to believe that that he has 'uncontrolled urges' it would be tantamount to giving him permission to take what he wanted ....because he 'can't control himself'. Which is an excuse. And it's rubbish. It's the excuse that was used in the Brock Turner case mentioned a while back. It's the excuse used when people want to behave badly.

I'm not blown away by all the political accusations as I have a tendency not to believe a thing they say ..politics is a mucky business ....but it probably is an area that still resonates with patriarchy so it needs a shake up.

I'm actually more worried that we get the message across to the next generation .....because with Social Media and the likes of sexting this generation may need a little help too.

J


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Oh thank god! Thank you, James, for being the sole voice of reason out of the men on this board. You are much needed.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> It's the male that needs written instructions and the female who shows him how


Still the case with humans and in today's society the "instructions" are often conflicting.



> I am male. Do I really have (sexual) urges that I can't control? Surely, if I had brought my son up to believe that that he has 'uncontrolled urges' it would be tantamount to giving him permission to take what he wanted ....because he 'can't control himself'. Which is an excuse. And it's rubbish. It's the excuse that was used in the Brock Turner case mentioned a while back. It's the excuse used when people want to behave badly.


That excuse is still being used only now, if a celebrity etc it's called "sexual addiction" and you simply go to rehab.



> I'm actually more worried that we get the message across to the next generation .....because with Social Media and the likes of sexting this generation may need a little help too.


Responsibility lies with both men and women to provide a consistent message. They'll jump on Weinstein, make excuses for Polansky as one simple example.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Anyone remember the Brock Turner case?
> Star athlete at prestigious Stanford University, rapes an unconscious woman behind a dumpster and gets 6 months in jail. Released after 3 months.
> There was outcry that he was a great athlete, Olympic potential, great guy, and this woman ruined his life. This woman. Who's only crime was to underestimate her alcohol intake and tolerance. She did nothing but refuse his advances at the party they both attended, and then when he found her later, unconscious, instead of getting help for her, he raped her. Yet in large part, she was seen as the one in the wrong. Social media and news headlines attacked her. I can't even imagine what it must have been like for that woman to endure. And any other woman going through the process of trying to bring justice to a male attacker. This is the world we live in. And it's not a friendly world to those who dare to speak up about injustices.


I remember that case, and also the Steubenville rapists, similar situations in that they were athletes with a potential future in football and she was intoxicated and the victim was treated as the criminal, the was responsible for their careers being in jeopardy, and her own rape, even women blaming her, high profile ones like Serena Williams believing they shouldn't be punished, and how was the girl raised to get that drunk at her age, and also wondering if she was a virgin, so that might make it different for her, completely disgusting, but representative of how women are led to believe that you're, as a woman, responsible for any abuse that befalls you.

Speaking about how hard it is, you come out and tell the police and go into details of horrific things that happen to you, and it's still not worth the CPS's time, and they drop you if they feel they can't get a prosecution. Here's a link to a woman's story who is actually trying to fund the prosecution of her rapist online after she was dropped. It's why so many women just don't think it's worth reporting it to anyone. It's an emotional upheaval to live through it all in the retelling, all for it to be dropped.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-prosecution-emily-hunt-justice-a8040926.html

https://www.gofundme.com/2xhxmwyk


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> I am male. Do I really have (sexual) urges that I can't control? Surely, if I had brought my son up to believe that that he has 'uncontrolled urges' it would be tantamount to giving him permission to take what he wanted ....because he 'can't control himself'. Which is an excuse. And it's rubbish. It's the excuse that was used in the Brock Turner case mentioned a while back. It's the excuse used when people want to behave badly.


Thank you  As a female who has friends who have been severely sexually assaulted (and has been through the 'usual' levels of harrassment herself), it is always encouraging to know there are plenty of men out there quietly raising their sons to be responsible gentlemen. Sadly, although you are in the majority you are often underappreciated, as the headlines are invariably grabbed by the violators - but we know you are there and really DO appreciate the many decent guys, even if the appreciation gets lost in the sea of controversy.

It's often the excuses and the associated victim blaming that frustrate us the most, you know. It seems that sexual assault (in all its forms) is perhaps the only crime where "the goods were on display and I fancied them, so I took them without permission" is considered a defence and not a confession of guilt.



Goblin said:


> Still the case with humans and in today's society the "instructions" are often conflicting


It's not that hard. Ask permission respectfully, and respect the answer - and if the person is in no condition to give a considered answer/consent, leave well alone. Also accept that the person is entitled to change their mind at any time, and you should respect that too. This works both ways for every scenario and all levels of interaction. Yes, you're going to get some people who react rudely and/or out of all proportion, but that's the case with everything.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2017)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> Actually basic biology is that both males and females have sexual urges ... in the name of procreation of course ....and in fact in nature it is invariably the female that is the more driven in this regard. Anyone ever watched a male dog when introduced to a female in season. It's the male that needs written instructions and the female who shows him how
> 
> But back to humans.
> 
> ...


I'm having uncontrollable urges to hug you


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Dr Pepper said:


> Because that very statement shows what a waste of time it'd be.


You beat me to it @Dr Pepper.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> Actually basic biology is that both males and females have sexual urges ... in the name of procreation of course ....and in fact in nature it is invariably the female that is the more driven in this regard. Anyone ever watched a male dog when introduced to a female in season. It's the male that needs written instructions and the female who shows him how
> 
> But back to humans.
> 
> ...


So, you never had trouble in the mornings then?


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Rona, your attitude towards men is embarrassing


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

bearcub said:


> Rona, your attitude towards men is embarrassing


Oddly, it is men that have told me this. They are not rapists or sex pests just decent honest men.

They are beset by urges they don't even necessarily want but have anyway. They aren't always sexual urges but they are nature

It's just basic and many studies have proven this to be true. Just go and look

It's like someone saying that generally male brains work the same as womens, they don't and that's just biology too, though there can be the odd grey area


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Mother of god.... no-one has said that men don't have urges. Women do too. It's your insistence that the urges are uncontrollable that is wrong. You remind me of some Victorian matriach who regards men as wild beasts that cannot control themselves and warns young ladies to stay away from them. 

Just because someone has an urge doesn't mean they have to act on it. When men tell you they must, it's an excuse for bad behaviour. 

And BTW, there's no such thing as 'blue balls'.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

rona said:


> Oddly, it is men that have told me this. They are not rapists or sex pests just decent honest men.
> 
> They are beset by urges they don't even necessarily want but have anyway. They aren't always sexual urges but they are nature


We all have urges. The majority of people are capable of not acting on them.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Mirandashell said:


> Mother of god.... no-one has said that men don't have urges. Women do too. It's your insistence that the urges are uncontrollable that is wrong. You remind me of some Victorian matriach who regards men as wild beasts that cannot control themselves and warns young ladies to stay away from them.
> 
> Just because someone has an urge doesn't mean they have to act on it. When men tell you they must, it's an excuse for bad behaviour.
> 
> And BTW, there's no such thing as 'blue balls'.


Then as usual you have misinterpreted my words. I'm getting used to that on here. The twisting of what I say seems to be the current sport of a few on PF.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

bearcub said:


> We all have urges. The majority of people are capable of not acting on them.


And nor do the majority of men doesn't they don't have them


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Jesthar said:


> It's often the excuses and the associated victim blaming that frustrate us the most, you know. It seems that sexual assault (in all its forms) is perhaps the only crime where "the goods were on display and I fancied them, so I took them without permission" is considered a defence and not a confession of guilt.


Not one person has condoned or excused any sexual misconduct (male or female). The points raised are not a case of victim blaming. The point is that women also have to take some responsibility for their own safety. Criminal acts are still criminal acts, doesn't change that. The simple idea of that basic premise (reponsibility for own safety) being "victim blaming" is a problem. We do not live in a fantasy world where things are as they should be.



> It's not that hard. Ask permission respectfully, and respect the answer - and if the person is in no condition to give a considered answer/consent, leave well alone. Also accept that the person is entitled to change their mind at any time, and you should respect that too. This works both ways for every scenario and all levels of interaction. Yes, you're going to get some people who react rudely and/or out of all proportion, but that's the case with everything.


If you read my previous comments, you stated what I basically stated earlier  However I'm not all men and not what is being pushed in all this.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

rona said:


> Then as usual you have misinterpreted my words. I'm getting used to that on here. The twisting of what I say seems to be the current sport of a few on PF.


I haven't twisted anything, Rona. The evidence for my claim is in your own posts on this thread.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Here's the evidence for the 'blue balls' comment. I find it hard to believe that a modern woman would fall for that old chestnut but there you go



rona said:


> No but they do have uncontrolled urges that need addressing or *they* suffer consequences. It's just basic biology


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

rona said:


> And nor do the majority of men doesn't they don't have them


I think (?) you just agreed with me, but to clarify, no one is denying the presence of sexual thoughts in adults.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2017)

rona said:


> So, you never had trouble in the mornings then?


What does this have to do with anything?! 
Men also get erections with traumatic brain injuries, it's one of the indicators or a brain injury in fact. So what?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

bearcub said:


> I think (?) you just agreed with me, but to clarify, no one is denying the presence of sexual thoughts in adults.


Some on here seem to have, but at least we agree


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Do you have posts where someone has said that adults don't have sexual urges?


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Goblin said:


> Not one person has condoned or excused any sexual misconduct (male or female). The points raised are not a case of victim blaming. *The point is that women also have to take some responsibility for their own safety.* Criminal acts are still criminal acts, doesn't change that. The simple idea of that basic premise (reponsibility for own safety) being "victim blaming" is a problem. We do not live in a fantasy world where things are as they should be.


Yes, we know this - but moreso than men are expected to take responsibility for their safety - or actions? How far do you want us to go in the precautions we take? I've had people wolf whistle and catcall me just walking down the street during a regular working day. A taxi driver corner me in a car park and try to get me to go for a drink with him, following me in his car every time I politely declined and tried to move away. Bouncers lie flat on the stairs at clubs to look up my skirt as I ascend them (decent length skirts, I should add, not that wearing a mini-skirt should make it acceptable). A married friend had a taxi driver lewdly and insistently proposition her at the end of a journey, despite telling him she was married, on the grounds it would 'just be a bit of fun and her husband didn't need to know. Hey, you can't blame a guy for trying!'.

The list of things it is suggested women do to avoid being victims is ever growing. Don't leave your drink, and don't drink anything you didn't pour or see being poured - even if it's non-alcoholic. Know your limits. Always go in groups, even to the bathroom. Don't have your address on you. Carry a whistle or rape alarm. Stay in well lighted areas. Have a set timetable and stick to it, no matter what. Prearrange phone calls at set times so someone not out kows you are OK. Prearrange transport. And that's even before we get onto 'don't wear short skirts/low cut tops/high heels/lots of makeup' victim blaming end of those suggestions.

And even if a woman follows every precaution possible and still ends up being raped, then you can usually guarantee that unless she was a nun or nearest local equivalent, the main focus of any defence is usually to try and pull apart both the incident and her life to try and convince the jury she was a sleeparound, or dressed inappropriately, or a tease, or otherwise asking for it in a way that meant consent is implicit even if refused verbally. Is it any wonder so many victims don't bother reporting incidents when they feel they'll just be told it was partly/all their fault for getting raped, rather than the rape being the fault of the rapist? That goes just as much for male victims, of course, and they also have the different aspect in of 'you're a man, aren't you, why didn't you stop them?'



Goblin said:


> If you read my previous comments, you stated what I basically stated earlier  However I'm not all men and not what is being pushed in all this.


I know. I do not, however, see that anything is being 'pushed' here. That the majority of men don't go around sexually assaulting or harrassing women (and vice versa, etc.) is accepted, and is not being questioned, and stating this after evey point is made makes for a very cumbersome discussion.  Can't we just take that as read?


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Well said, Jesthar.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Jesthar said:


> Yes, we know this


Well apparantly many do not. Mention it however and it's victim blaming. Makes any progress of the subject impossible.



> but moreso than men are expected to take responsibility for their safety - or actions?


Majority do.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Seems Carl Sargeant has committed suicide.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...elsh-labour-politician-carl-sargeant-has-died

The former Welsh government minister Carl Sargeant has been found dead days after it emerged that a number of women had made allegations of improper personal conduct against him.

Sargeant was sacked on Friday from his post as Wales's cabinet secretary for communities and children, after the allegations came to light, which the Welsh first minister later confirmed were in relation to a number of incidents with women.

Sargeant, a married father-of-two, is understood to have killed himself. North Wales police said on Tuesday that the death is not being treated as suspicious.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Have to say, I’m reading something completely different into Rona’s posts. For me she isn’t saying that people can’t control what they do about it, when they see a woman pouting, twerking and flashing her bosoms, but rather that a heterosexual male is quite likely to be interested and it would be wrong to deny it. I didn’t think she was saying that guys can’t control themselves and jump on the nearest unsuspecting female if they find them attractive.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

People act on stereotypes and assumptions - so if you are in short skirt, have lipstick on etc...then you are " up for it".

If you happen to be young and " Eastern European" blonde - people who never met you just assume...

I am not particularly frail and tender, honestly it was gross, how badly men could behave.

Even those who knew well I was married, Catholic, and a guest of well respected institution.

Maybe some men are terrible in mistaking friendly person for attracted to them?
How enormous their egos must be?

But do not think I would report any of that personally to their workplace.
Though twice girlfriend or wife was told.
Best person to deal with it IMO.

Yet, if it was not one off but persistent harassment then if my warning not headed then I would have complained.
But not 15 years after.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> Seems Carl Sargeant has committed suicide.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...elsh-labour-politician-carl-sargeant-has-died
> 
> ...


Do you know what he was accused of?


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2017)

Elles said:


> Have to say, I'm reading something completely different into Rona's posts. For me she isn't saying that people can't control what they do about it, when they see a woman pouting, twerking and flashing her bosoms, but rather that a heterosexual male is quite likely to be interested and it would be wrong to deny it. I didn't think she was saying that guys can't control themselves and jump on the nearest unsuspecting female if they find them attractive.


But what each of us finds attractive/alluring is so personal and different. The male strip dance stuff (Magic Mike type thing) does absolutely nothing for me. I find it cringeworthy and the opposite of arousing. Nor are those type of manscaped men really my thing either. 
OH is the same way. A woman flouting herself is more likely to put him off - and no, he's not just saying that to me, I've known the man a long time, and it's obvious. There are plenty of other men out there like that too.

So yes, I can deny that a lot of men are not going to be "interested" in an attractive woman popping her boobs and butt out of a skimpy outfit. And not because there is anything wrong with them, more like there is a lot right with them


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Elles said:


> Have to say, I'm reading something completely different into Rona's posts. For me she isn't saying that people can't control what they do about it, when they see a woman pouting, twerking and flashing her bosoms, but rather that a heterosexual male is quite likely to be interested and it would be wrong to deny it. I didn't think she was saying that guys can't control themselves and jump on the nearest unsuspecting female if they find them attractive.


Really? Just to show what I was referring to:



rona said:


> Then a great deal demean themselves
> 
> I find it staggering how many women can ignore basic principles of nature





rona said:


> 200,000 years of evolution wiped out on a whim





rona said:


> Yes but you are female and dismissing the *biological imperative* which is in most of the male population. *It's not something that can be controlled with the brain in many circumstances.* They may not act on it but it's still there and to ignore or deny it is a very very dangerous thing to do





rona said:


> So, y*ou never had trouble in the mornings then?*





rona said:


> Oddly, it is men that have told me this. They are not rapists or sex pests just decent honest men.
> 
> *They are beset by urges they don't even necessarily want but have anyway.* They aren't always sexual urges but they are nature
> 
> ...





rona said:


> And nor do the majority of men doesn't they don't have them


My bold.

And this following point has been made again and again and again in this thread. Showing parts of your body does *not* imply permission to touch. Rona doesn't agree as she believes men are biologically impelled to rape and therefore women should cover themselves up. She doesn't say much about it being men's responsiblity to not be rapey. No, it's her own gender's fault for provoking men's 'biological urges'.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

rona said:


> Do you know what he was accused of?


No, but three (unnamed) women accused him. He was sacked before he was proven guilty. I wonder if they will retain their anonymity while his family has to live with the shame and the shock; especially as he is no longer alive to defend himself.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

I rather think this thread is going off the rails.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Hmmm..... killing yourself seems extreme if you're innocent of the charges. And TBF, he's the one who has left his family to cope without him.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

ouesi said:


> manscaped men


Haha! Love this adjective; you mean the guys who glisten and ripple thro' the baby oil with all their veins showing? Really yuk.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

OMG what a sad state of affairs when a human being takes their own life leaving a partner and children for us to not even express sympathy. I think we are all in danger of getting carried away with mud slinging. I do not believe it is right to sack someone over allegations that are yet to be proven and I do not believe it is right to assume because someone has killed themselves they must be guilty.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

*http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-wales-politics-41904773*



Prime Minister's 'heart goes out to Carl Sargeant's friends and family'

Asked if the Prime Minister was* concerned about the health of those accused of harassment,* the Prime Minister's Official Spokesperson says in relation to the "sad news" about the death of Carl Sargeant, "the Prime Minister's heart goes out to Carl Sargeant's friends and family", but given the circumstances won't say anything further at this point



*'Loved across the political divide'*

Speaking through tears on BBC Radio Wales, former local government minister Leighton Andrews says:

"Carl Sargeant was loved. He was loved across the political divide. He was loved by the people in his own community.

"Carl was a unique politician. He arrived in the assembly from the factory floor. He grew up and still lived in the council estate that helped shape his roots in Connah's Quay - he was still very much part of that community.

"My understanding is that Carl was still not aware of the detail of the allegations against him, even, I'm told, this morning.

"I think that perhaps that's something to talk about on another day. Today I think his friends, family, will want to remember the Carl that we knew. The Carl that we loved."

Former Plaid Cymru AM Rhodri Glyn Thomas says: "Carl clearly felt he had been found guilty before he had a chance to defend himself.

"So I think we need to develop a system which is fair to everybody, which defends everybody, but doesn't place people in a position where they feel they have no opportunity whatsoever to fight their cause."


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Calvine said:


> I rather think this thread is going off the rails.


I agree.



Mirandashell said:


> And TBF, he's the one who has left his family to cope without him.


That's uncalled for. Whatever he is accused of, whether guilty or not, his family are innocent and now find themselves dealing with the shock and grief of his sudden, untimely demise.

:Locktopic


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