# Puppy issue may get sued!!!



## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

Hi guys

I am really really Annoyed as a nice word.

Lupi who is now named cocoa who i will still call lupi.
i got an email from the people that brought her. her eye infection hasn't cleared up and it seems to have turned into a gentic disorder. 

The vet when i took lupi in did mention in a fly by way that it could be this but she was sure it was an eye infection so i didn't mention that to them i just stated it was an eye infectiona dn she had the eye drops

I offered to keep her until the drops were finished and take her back for her check up but they still wanted her on the monday. 
i recieved this email:

Hi Trish.

With regret I have to inform you about a problem with the puppy.
As you are aware a couple of days before collecting puppy you told us she has an eye infection possibly caused by a tree you had recently cut down and lying in your garden.
On the 18th of may we took Cocoa as she is now named to the vet for the first injection this could not be done as the eye problem still remains.
After a discussion with the vet we were told it is more likley to be a genetic disorder and learned you were told this could be the problem you did not mention that to us !
We took her to the vet again on the 27th for the first injection which they did also micro chipped her.The vet told us Cocoa may not grow out of this and will very likley need her bottom eye lids tacked down a minor operation ,if this does not work another op to cut away part of the lower eye lids even that is not a sure cure.
She has been insured since the 14th but as in all pet insurance the is a two week lapse befor any claim can be made .
We have taken other advise and told to return her to you and a refund of the purchase price and any costs inccured .this is not an option as in the shot time we have had her she is so loved and part of our family .
As the breeder and not making us fully aware of the full facts you are responsible for the costs of this particulare problem .

I am so annoyed they didn't contact me sooner i am f***ed they emailed me rather than rang me. I recommended my own vets and that is where they are so i am majorly F***ed they think i was hidding something. As i recommened my own vets that says something to me at least. Rather than ring me on the 18th or the 19th they wait nearly 2 weeks nad then EMAIL ME. am i that unapproacble?

I have done everything in my power for them pups and i get told bascally im a lier. I so P'ed off. the fact they have the nerve to tell me i "lied" to them in so many words and that rather than coming to me to talk to me the contacted trading standards to get advice why not contact me first?

I have offered them a full refund and to return the dog (This is what i really want as i did ask them to leave the dog while i treated her) or i would pay HALF the costs of any op. But my husband and I want the dog returned if we are honest we would rather treat her and look after her. 

I want to scream, cry and shout but i have no idea what to do. in the contract it stated they are responisible for any gentic disorders but i have no idea where i stand?

Can anyone help??


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## ruby2ruby (Apr 29, 2009)

Sorry to hear about this, I really have no idea where you stand legally - offering to take the puppy back and giving them a full refund sounds extremely fair to me. I'd also ask them for a veterinary report from their own vet to prove what they are saying is true - they could just be trying to pull a fast one if they were aware that the puppy was under treatment when they purchased her...


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## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

According to my pet insurance if you do not declare that there is a problem with the puppy even a flea infestation the insurance is void. Good luck and don't worry to much.


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## terriermaid (Nov 5, 2007)

not surprised your angry ,thats a bit extrem ,i dont know where you stand ,but entropia in my experiance is fairly easily corrected ,i had it once in a litter and the same as you ,i just thought an eye infection got the pup drops and let him go to his new home and it wasnt diagnosed untill 12 weeks ,luckerly the new owner was sencible ,


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## estalearottweilers (Mar 30, 2008)

hiya. pls dont take this the wrong way but as the breeder it should not of been an option for them to take the puppy untill the infec had cleared up that way you would of known the puppy was fit and healthy when she left your care. with your own vet saying it *could* be genetic and not telling the new owners this you could find yourself being left with the vet bills. like i say im not having a go. its good that you have said that you will take the puppy back, but as this is not an option in the eyes of the new owner then the next step i would take is to offer them half their money back. or pay for the treatment she is going to need

do you think they would allow you to go to the vets with them? this way you could hear what the vet is saying yourself.


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

A friend has a beagle puppy who had entropia. It is being treated with drops at the moment. She said the vet had said he may grow out of it as he gets older. He will not operate until the puppy is older. I think he is a little older than your pups. The vet has told her it is a simple operation to put it right.

I would definitely aske for a vets report from their vet before you do anything and maybe a trip to CAB with a copy of the contract that they signed and the report from their vet to see what they say.


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## ruby2ruby (Apr 29, 2009)

candysmum said:


> in the contract it stated they are responisible for any gentic disorders but i have no idea where i stand?
> 
> Can anyone help??


What else did it state in your puppy sales contract? As I can't see how they would be responsible for any genetic disorders although I'm not quite sure what breed we are talking about here, I know some breeds are more prone to eye disorders than others but I can't see how stating that in your contract would cover you as a breeder if you have bred a puppy with a genetic defect. I'm not having a go I have always been of the mind that puppy contracts are not legally binding anyway talking to many breeders over the years although I agree they are a pretty good start for a responsible breeder. As stated in a previous post, if they are using a different vet to the one you took the puppy to be treated at - I personally would ask for a veterinary report from them stating exactly what problems their own vet diagnosed and the treatment they have advised just to cover yourself. I would then give them the option to return the puppy and give a full refund - I wouldn't hand anything over at all until you have written proof from their own vet. If they don't want to bring the dog back and be offered a full refund, what exactly do they want? Does this mean if the problem cannot be treated in the long term - do they expect you to cover vet fee's everytime they take the puppy to see the vet? Personally I would insist they return the puppy, offer a full refund and offer no more. Do all your correspondence in written letters as this provides hard evidence - keep copies of everything that you draft and send, send everything recorded delivery.


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## Boston (Feb 6, 2008)

If i am right the breed is Dalmations


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

candysmum said:


> Hi guys
> 
> I am really really Annoyed as a nice word.
> 
> ...


I think they are pulling a fast one here, i would call their bluff and tell them to do as you have asled or take you to trading standards as they have not a leg to stand on where t.s are concerned as by law you are obliged to take the pup back and give refund and thats what you have done. T.S will have nothing to do with it as you have done everything by the book


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## Guest (May 31, 2009)

Sorry to hear this.

And with people claiming what they can I'm not suprized,however if I was standing in their shoes I would also be annoyed as you did fail to mention it could be a genetic problem.

I don't see how a buyer can be responsible for any genetic conditions which come to light,as the breeder it is your responsibilty as you bred the litter and should of been aware of ALL conditions affecting the breed.

I think you need to speak with them on the phone asap,follow up with a letter,Keeping a copy.
Some people don't feel comfortable speaking to the breeder on the phone when a problem arises,perhaps they wanted to email you first to see what reaction they would get.

I bred a puppy years ago,he had a terrible back leg and used to drag it behind him,our vet wasn't hopeful.....Anyway we rehomed him to family friends FOC and offered to pay vet bills,this was stated in the contract so there was no grounds to come back on us.

They obviously don't want to return the puppy and you can't force them to,however they may start legal proceeding's to claim vet bills back which unfortunatly they have every right to do,you also with held important informaton which could have determined whether or not they were prepared to give a pup a home when it may need vet care which could prove to be very expensive.
I hope you don't take offence but this is just the way I see things.


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## ruby2ruby (Apr 29, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> Sorry to hear this.
> 
> And with people claiming what they can I'm not suprized,however if I was standing in their shoes I would also be annoyed as you did fail to mention it could be a genetic problem.
> 
> ...


Firstly, I agree with everything you have said.  But where do you draw the line where vet bills are concerned as a breeder who has done the right thing and offered that the puppy be returned and a full refund? As mentioned in a previous post does this mean everytime the new owners have a problem with their puppy genetic or not, should the breeder foot the bill? From what I can see, the puppy was under treatment when they purchased the puppy, obviously I understand that the puppy should not have been homed until all treatments were finished - but it's too late - deed done both parties were really in the wrong for doing so both must accept blame for that. I understand some people may be a little aprehensive concerning contacting a breeder when there is a problem with a puppy but picking up the phone isn't hard and in all honesty it would be the first thing that I would do myself if there were a problem with a puppy I had purchased from a breeder. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and I am sure if the OP really thought that there was a problem they would have mentioned it instantly to the puppy buyers. Thing is an email isn't the best way of contacting someone when really upset it's hard to get a feel for things out of an email - phone conversations are usually much better as you can work out whether there may be a genuine problem or not just by their tone. I have a feeling these people may be trying to milk the situation of everything they can get, their own little 'pot of gold' knowing full well the puppy shouldn't have left the breeder until in a healthy state.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

sounds like a bit of a mess ....... is this your first litter? I take it it is as otherwise you would have known not to get pups?
I dont know whay anyone wouldnt take up the offer of a refund though, 2 weeks isnt that long to say a goodbye and look for another. Especially if it means they will be seeing the pup in discomfort.
Its really up to you - either a full out no with the offer to take it back or cut your losses and pay 1/2 towards. You have to feel for them though as the future insurance fees will be affected which is a nighmare in itself .


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## Guest (May 31, 2009)

james1 said:


> I dont know whay anyone wouldnt take up the offer of a refund though, 2 weeks isnt that long to say a goodbye and look for another. Especially if it means they will be seeing the pup in discomfort.


Granted two weeks isn't long,however the owners have stated the pup is part of the family and they have become attached.If the breeder had not witheld information this situation would never have happened.

Ruby I agree,you have to draw the line somewhere,however this situaton is different I feel as the puppy should not have been sold until the vet had given the all clear.
We state in our contract that the owners should have a vet check and if the vet deems the puppy unfit for sale we will refund provided the puppy is returned.
Vet bills - good point,it may be worth adding something in the contract of sale,saying unless the problem was caused by breeding or putting in a time clause then the breeder wll not be held responsible for any costs incurred.


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## Lily's Mum (Jan 22, 2009)

Hi candysmum,

What a sad situation to be in for all parties concerned.

However I do think the buyers of the pup have a valid point. They should have been told that the eye infection could be genetic.

I would call the owners, apologise for the situation.

Offer to pay the vet bills as they requested.

Regards

Penny.


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## tinamary (Aug 17, 2008)

I agree that you should have told them all the facts before they bought the puppy. Then they had the chance to say no and the puppy would not have to be brought back and then rehomed again.

I am astounded that someone could return a puppy after two weeks knowing that it had bonded with them. They must have some sort of bond with it too. I would have paid for the treatment for my tilly whatever the cost and would have found the money somehow. There is no way that i would return her because of a problem that can be resolved.

Please insist that the puppy be returned from these heartless people.


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## estalearottweilers (Mar 30, 2008)

how are the owners being heartless and why should they return the puppy.


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## Boston (Feb 6, 2008)

Tinamary i think you have got the wrong end of the stick the new owners are not heartless people Candymum said they do not want to return the pup as they are attached to it and it is now part of there family.


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

OK my contract states that they had 48 hours to visit a vet to have the uppy looked at and deemed fit. If not i would take the dog back and offer a full refund

I have offered to pay them HALF of the operation if it comes to this. I have admited i should of mentioned the fly by comment but at the time i didn't see it as important as the vet did state she was sure it was an infection. They are at the same vets as myself! 

The breed is Dalmatians and i have no issues with candys eyes and never have. from what i could tell the eye issue must be either somewhere on Studs side back in candys line it is not in the parents themselves.

I did try to keep the pup but i am not a pushy person and they wanted to carry on treating the puppy and i told them they must get her checked on the thursday for a weeks check up.

I have offered a full refund and for them to return the pup and to pay half of the operation ONCE i have been consulted they can not just say YES and then expect me to pay. As they are with the same vet as myself i am going to go and talk to the owner who is the person that i see with my own dogs i saw one of his other vets when i rushed Lupi to the vets. 

I dont take any of your opioins to heart and i thank you all for replying. I had one other puppy that had an "eye infection" I phoned them today and she told me this.
Her vet mentioned it could be genetic but to leave the eye alone as most of the time leaving them it pops out itself if not a small op can be done once older and it will fix the problem. No vet had seen this puppy as my vet gave me extra drops for him. I have just got back from his new home and his eye has corrected itself. there is nothing wrong with it she is very pleased with him and i am glad all is well. 

I am in such turmoil. I would never withhold important information and as it was just a quick it may be genetic but i am sure its an eye infection i didn't think it was important i hold my hands up to that.

Yes this is my first litter and i have done everything by the book with them apartfrom letting Lupi go before i had finished her eye drops. My mistake and i'll admit it. 

Thank you for all your help i will let you know what is going on Just wished they had rang me. they picked her up on the 11th with instructions from me to take her to their vet on the 14th for her check up they had their 48 hours to get her ealth checked too. they took her on the 18th and then the 27th and have waited until NOW today the 31st to contact me i think this is what i am most annoyed about. why not contact me right away? and over the phone

Sorry i really must get over it!


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## tinamary (Aug 17, 2008)

Sorry i was listening to tele and reading at the same time, i was under the impression that they wanted to return the puppy. Sorry i will read it all again.


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## C4L (May 29, 2009)

ruby2ruby said:


> Firstly, I agree with everything you have said.  But where do you draw the line where vet bills are concerned as a breeder who has done the right thing and offered that the puppy be returned and a full refund?


If it's a genetic condition and on going treatment is needed then I don't think you should draw a line at all. After all if they did return the pup the breeder would have to pay for whatever treatment was needed anyway.

They bought the pup in good faith that the problem was a simple eye infection and *IF* it's not then the breeder has unfortunatly made the mistake of not informing them of that possibility, I would think that would make them liable to cover any costs incurred?

Two weeks is plenty of time to build a very strong bond with a puppy and I'm not surprised they've chosen not to return to breeder. I think it's quite admirable that they haven't taken the easy option actually.

If it were me I'd be feeling extremely guilty about the whole thing, however unintentional, and wanting to right my mistakes my offering to pay any costs.


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## estalearottweilers (Mar 30, 2008)

candy's mum. you really do need to contact them and sort things out. to me it does not matter when they contacted you {maybe they needed time to calm down} fact is the same vet is still saying it might be genetic. think you are going to have to harden up because at no point should that puppy of left your care. if you do ever have another litter then you are the one to say when a puppy can or cant go to its new home, not the new owner.


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## Guest (May 31, 2009)

candysmum said:


> OK my contract states that they had 48 hours to visit a vet to have the uppy looked at and deemed fit. If not i would take the dog back and offer a full refund


See I can't see how you can apply this in this case as the puppy was been treated,so obviously not fit and well,even if genetic was just mentioned briefly you should have still informed the new owner's.
Put yourself in their shoes,wouldn't you be annoyed because I'm damn sure I would be.
Granted it's taken them a while to get intouch but perhaps they were willing to wait to see if this was going to clear up before getting intouch and perhaps they didn't really know how to contact you or what your reaction was going to be.
Not sure about this possible eye condition but in our breed's eye conditions if you mate two carriers you will get affected pups,this why we test for conditions and do a hell of alot of research before breeding and see what if any conditions have come through certain lines.


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

estalearottweilers said:


> candy's mum. you really do need to contact them and sort things out. to me it does not matter when they contacted you {maybe they needed time to calm down} fact is the same vet is still saying it might be genetic. think you are going to have to harden up because at no point should that puppy of left your care. if you do ever have another litter then you are the one to say when a puppy can or cant go to its new home, not the new owner.


Candy won't be having a litter again because she was spayed earlier this week.


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## estalearottweilers (Mar 30, 2008)

hi sallyanne. all our pups go with a contract which is signed by our vet to say they are healthy our vet will not at any point sign them if she thinks otherwise. 

you are also correct that both parents could be carriers but not be affected themselfs.


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## Guest (May 31, 2009)

Hey Candysmum!

I really think your offer is very fair, there is no reason for you to pay full vet costs if the pup is not returned to you!

In your situation first id be careful what I let out on a public forum lol  not being cynical just lawyer by heart and training LOL
In your place id pop in the local CAB to have the facts assessed in the light of the contract (because really thats thats only thing that matters; the contract!). Are you a professional breeder? are you registered in some way ( i know nth about breeding!) - because whether you are deemed a professional or a private individual can make a huge difference legally especially in relation to disclosure of facts etc so that would be sth to discuss at the CAB as well!

Then be careful with what you say to the owners - dont apologize too profusely admitting liability in a way lol just repeat what you have said here; the vet expressed it by really as a very passing idea there was no doubt in your mind... and make sure you keep it as much as possible in writing (confirm phone conversation with letters if needed etc).

And yes make sure you get a report from the vet on the current situation!

Good luck and do let us know!!


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## estalearottweilers (Mar 30, 2008)

ad_1980 said:


> Candy won't be having a litter again because she was spayed earlier this week.


hiya yep i did see that, but candysmum was saying else where that she was going to buy in another breeding bitch sometime in the future.:wink:


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> See I can't see how you can apply this in this case as the puppy was been treated,so obviously not fit and well,even if genetic was just mentioned briefly you should have still informed the new owner's.
> Put yourself in their shoes,wouldn't you be annoyed because I'm damn sure I would be.
> Granted it's taken them a while to get intouch but perhaps they were willing to wait to see if this was going to clear up before getting intouch and perhaps they didn't really know how to contact you or what your reaction was going to be.


I know that the pups eye was not part of the fit thing and i admit i should of mentioned it but like i said i didn't see it as important as the vet had told me she was sure it was an infection i should of mentioned it i knwo that now i am not trying to get out of anything. BUT had they taken her to the vets in the 48 hours this could of been sorted out back then thats all i am saying the length of time it has taken!

I have never read anywhere about Dalmatians eyes which is why i never worried about the eyes!

I dont know if it was the same vet or a different one withint the same pratise there are 4 vets there. WHICH is why i will contact the owner.

This was my first litter as much as i wanted to breed her i looked long and hard and knew what i was going in for and that is why i did everythign in my power to not land in this situation. Hindsight is always a great thing adn IF after this i do decided to become a breeder in full not just here and there then i know better but right now i am wondering if i should ever do it again is it worth this hassle?

If i didn't care i wouldn't have taken her to a vet at all now would I?


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## archiebaby (Feb 25, 2008)

can you not get the vet to admit to them that it was just a passing comment when he/she mentioned it to you?


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

Oblada said:


> Hey Candysmum!
> 
> I really think your offer is very fair, there is no reason for you to pay full vet costs if the pup is not returned to you!
> 
> ...


thank you I will be contacting Cab tomorrow If they answer the phone they never do! and make an appointment to go down.

I have printed off their email and mine owna nd put them with the contract (i did this earlier this morning.)

Glad to see some "Legal" person on here that can help me in my situation

Knowing that everyone knows their rights these days is why i told thm everything that i could BEFORE hand just a shame i didn't see that this was a piece of important info.


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

archiebaby said:


> can you not get the vet to admit to them that it was just a passing comment when he/she mentioned it to you?


might be able to. dont knwo but i dont want to cause issues with the vets i really like my vets and dont want to have to leave there if you se where i am coming from.


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## estalearottweilers (Mar 30, 2008)

dont beat yourself up about it. i would go a head and contact the owner and get your point across in a calm manner and see what else they have to say.


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## C4L (May 29, 2009)

Should dalmatians be eye screened before breeding?


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

C4L said:


> Should dalmatians be eye screened before breeding?


i have never read that anywhere and i asked vets and everythign adn they gave me loads of tests that i should do but never anythign about the eyes!


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## Guest (May 31, 2009)

It may be worth contacting one of the breed clubs to find out if there are any hereditary eye conditons within the breed and explain what has happened they may also be able to advise you.


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## Guest (May 31, 2009)

candysmum said:


> thank you I will be contacting Cab tomorrow If they answer the phone they never do! and make an appointment to go down.
> 
> I have printed off their email and mine owna nd put them with the contract (i did this earlier this morning.)
> 
> ...


It doesnt work in every CAB the same way but I can tell you in mine (Widnes); the phone is just an answering machine coz we dont have the time to pick it up every time it rings - and then advisers will call back - when depends on how busy the CAB is at the time..it can be the next day or it can be the next month lol and same goes with emails...plus in many instances, here at least, we prefer that people come down directly that way we can have a chat first and book them for an appointment for later on or possibly deal with it on the spot!

So do go there during the opening times hopefully they will be able to point you in the right direction on the legal side of things!

2 things will matter: the wording of the contract (including oral agreements although more difficult to prove) and whether you are legally deemed a professional or a private individual in this dealing!

good luck

xx


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

Oblada said:


> It doesnt work in every CAB the same way but I can tell you in mine (Widnes); the phone is just an answering machine coz we dont have the time to pick it up every time it rings - and then advisers will call back - when depends on how busy the CAB is at the time..it can be the next day or it can be the next month lol and same goes with emails...plus in many instances, here at least, we prefer that people come down directly that way we can have a chat first and book them for an appointment for later on or possibly deal with it on the spot!
> 
> So do go there during the opening times hopefully they will be able to point you in the right direction on the legal side of things!
> 
> ...


well hoping its an individual as this is my first litter and will be the last for a long time (once i have finished uni) IF i can get the courage up to go through it again and risk this again. we will see!

I had a friend who is a solicitor look through the contract and she said it was fine for what i was using it for so am hoping thats going to be something else on my side i am hoping i am panicking for nothign and it will be all sorted but who knows this day and age.


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## ruby2ruby (Apr 29, 2009)

C4L said:


> If it's a genetic condition and on going treatment is needed then I don't think you should draw a line at all. After all if they did return the pup the breeder would have to pay for whatever treatment was needed anyway.
> 
> They bought the pup in good faith that the problem was a simple eye infection and *IF* it's not then the breeder has unfortunatly made the mistake of not informing them of that possibility, I would think that would make them liable to cover any costs incurred?
> 
> ...


It don't work both ways though does it? How can they expect to keep the puppy and have ALL the treatment paid for? If I was in their position I'm not sure what I would do but I certainly wouldn't expect the breeder to cover all costs everytime the dog fell sick - it's all part and parcel of being a pet owner - vet fees.


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## Guest (May 31, 2009)

The KC recommends Hip scoring and BAER testing but there is nothing on eye testing under any of their schemes,(unless I have missed it)so I would guess that eyes in the Dalmatian are not a problem.

I have also had a quick search and again can't find anything on eyes,the main issues affecting the breed are Deafness,HD,Skin allergies,Epilepsy and Urinary Stones,so this eye condition may not be genetic but just one of those things that happens every so often within a litter.


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## ruby2ruby (Apr 29, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> The KC recommends Hip scoring and BAER testing but there is nothing on eye testing under any of their schemes,(unless I have missed it)so I would guess that eyes in the Dalmatian are not a problem.
> 
> I have also had a quick search and again can't find anything on eyes,the main issues affecting the breed are Deafness,HD,Skin allergies,Epilepsy and Urinary Stones,so this eye condition may not be genetic but just one of those things that happens every so often within a litter.


It's unusual for a Dalmatian to suffer from Entropion - facial heavily wrinkled breeds that suffer from this condition (I don't think there are any tests for it) - however it is genetic and the purchased puppy should not be bred from.


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## Guest (May 31, 2009)

Then I suppose the questions will be:
- should Candysmum have disclosed the passing comment of the vet - the answer will probably depend on whether she is considered a private seller or a professional I would say or whether she can be said to have 'intentionally misled' (it would be difficult to prove since she proposed to keep the pup until the eye was cleared)..
- does the contract provide for the seller to cover genetic illnesses in one way or the other.

If its not an usual concern for the breed then really its not the fault per se of the breeder, its just sth that happens, like any other illnesses...


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

ruby2ruby said:


> It's unusual for a Dalmatian to suffer from Entropion - facial heavily wrinkled breeds that suffer from this condition (I don't think there are any tests for it) - however it is genetic and the purchased puppy should not be bred from.


my cousins Weimaraner had entropium she was told it was genetic, she had to have 2 operations on her eyes but was absolutley fine afterwards & had no further problems.


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## Guest (May 31, 2009)

ruby2ruby said:


> It's unusual for a Dalmatian to suffer from Entropion - facial heavily wrinkled breeds that suffer from this condition (I don't think there are any tests for it) - however it is genetic and the purchased puppy should not be bred from.


Thanks just had a quick google and it is found in the Dalmatian and your correct it is genetic,however they are not sure of the mode of inheritance.
So I would have thought then this condition will be in Candy's or the Stud's or both bloodlines for it to come through.


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## ruby2ruby (Apr 29, 2009)

Oblada said:


> Then I suppose the questions will be:
> - should Candysmum have disclosed the passing comment of the vet - the answer will probably depend on whether she is considered a private seller or a professional I would say or whether she can be said to have 'intentionally misled' (it would be difficult to prove since she proposed to keep the pup until the eye was cleared)..
> - does the contract provide for the seller to cover genetic illnesses in one way or the other.
> 
> If its not an usual concern for the breed then really its not the fault per se of the breeder, its just sth that happens, like any other illnesses...


My best advice would be to get a second opinion from another vet IF the new owners are happy with that. Of course they may not agree but it would be in the best interest of all parties involved


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## ruby2ruby (Apr 29, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> Thanks just had a quick google and it is found in the Dalmatian and your correct it is genetic,however they are not sure of the mode of inheritance.
> So I would have thought then this condition will be in Candy's or the Stud's or both bloodlines for it to come through.


It's a first for me, you learn something new everyday  I knew heavily wrinkled breeds suffered from entropion as one of my sons Corso's had it as a puppy it did seem to ease over time with drops and he seems okay now.


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## Small~Fluffy (Mar 13, 2009)

*I have known of a Papillon pup with entropian, it was sorted with Viscotears every hour to keep the eye wet.
No surgery needed though took many many weeks with the visco gel.

I would say that I personally would phone them, be caring an see if you can come to a new agreement.

I personally would not wish to give the puppy back for a full refund as would love it to much after this amount of time.

Maybe you could pay for the vet bill for this one condition an be happy they love her so much, plus once dealt with by which ever means make sure they take full responsibility. Which I think they would be happy with.

Also her insurance would not have covered this condition as it was present when she was insured, so only new conditions apply.

Hope it all works out for everyones happiness *


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## archiebaby (Feb 25, 2008)

candysmum said:


> might be able to. dont knwo but i dont want to cause issues with the vets i really like my vets and dont want to have to leave there if you se where i am coming from.


no i understand that but if he had been a bit more positive on what it could have been then i am sure you would have told the new owners?


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## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

I said to the people that bought my puppy that they were checked by the vet and she said everything was fine. I also said if there were any problems they could'nt cope with that came to light that I would give them their money back and have the puppy treated myself. I don't know if this is a normal practice but I thought it was a better option for the puppy and new owners


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

archiebaby said:


> no i understand that but if he had been a bit more positive on what it could have been then i am sure you would have told the new owners?


thats very true if it had been diagnosed as the curling lower lid thing then i would have stated it i had told them everything else! why hid that and why tell them my vets was a good vet have them go there adn find out anyway??

Makes no sense!

i am going to offer to pay to get a second opioion from another vets and go from there! esspisally as the otoher dog is fine adn i have gone out to see him just to make sure.


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

i can't find their phone number i only have their address so i have sent them a quick email stating i would like to see another vets and i would pay for this appt. and go from there. 

again reminding them i would gladly refund and take the puppy back. and assured them i would not abandon my pups and i will do everything i can to help with lupi's eyes.

i also let them know even though i had been told Rollo was ok i drove out today after their email to check his eyes myself and he is totally ok. 

Hoping i get a respone and we can go from there.

Thank you all for you help. i know i was in the wrong regarding the vets comment and i will admit that. 

Thanks again and we will see hwta happens and if it goes Down hill i know i will never breed again i will not be told i am a lier and have not done the best by my pups. I have spoken to a few of my pups owners and been told their vets are impressed with how healthy they are and the fact i did the hearing test as most dont so i will look upon them as my way to get through this.


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## ruby2ruby (Apr 29, 2009)

candysmum said:


> i can't find their phone number i only have their address so i have sent them a quick email stating i would like to see another vets and i would pay for this appt. and go from there.
> 
> again reminding them i would gladly refund and take the puppy back. and assured them i would not abandon my pups and i will do everything i can to help with lupi's eyes.
> 
> ...


If you did all the health tests recommended for the breed then you have done all you can as far as I am aware there are no health tests to check for entropion, you were not to know this would happen - no one does. I hope everything manages to sort itself out for you. If you are dedicated 100% I can't see no reason why you shouldn't breed again, just take it all as a lesson learned. I can only imagine this whole episode has been very heartbreaking and off-putting for you, but don't let it put you off. Wishing you and the puppies all the best. x


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> If you did all the health tests recommended for the breed then you have done all you can as far as I am aware there are no health tests to check for entropion, you were not to know this would happen - no one does.


However, this is where research into the dogs in a pedigree is essential (and I don't mean just looking at names). This is also why breeding from non KC registered dogs is a big no, because you can't be sure of the pedigree. TBH, as the stud owner allowed his dog to be used on an unregistered bitch, it makes me think that the stud owner is only interested in the stud fee too, and not particularly responsible either.....

Candysmum, as has already been said, this puppy should never have gone to its new home without a clean bill of health, however much the new owners tried to persuade you to allow it. I'm afraid this is what being a good breeder is all about - it's not about cute puppies and loving them.

However, I can see your heart is in the right place, and you are trying to correct this. I think a second opinion is a good idea. Even if it is entropian, it is a fairly simple procedure to rectify so shouldn't be too expensive, although I think because you let the puppy go with the infection and did not disclose that the vet had said it could be genetic (entropian is genetic) as a breeder you are responsible for selling a puppy that did not have a clean bill of health, and that is what the law will look at, regardless of contracts and intentions. Had the puppy gone with a clean bill of health, it would have been a slightly different situation, although, as said, even if it is entropian it shouldn't be too costly. However, it is highly likely that the owners will ever be able to get any insurance that will cover them for any kind of eye problem in the future.


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## ruby2ruby (Apr 29, 2009)

Dundee said:


> However, this is where research into the dogs in a pedigree is essential (and I don't mean just looking at names). This is also why breeding from non KC registered dogs is a big no, because you can't be sure of the pedigree. TBH, as the stud owner allowed his dog to be used on an unregistered bitch, it makes me think that the stud owner is only interested in the stud fee too, and not particularly responsible either.....
> 
> Candysmum, as has already been said, this puppy should never have gone to its new home without a clean bill of health, however much the new owners tried to persuade you to allow it. I'm afraid this is what being a good breeder is all about - it's not about cute puppies and loving them.
> 
> However, I can see your heart is in the right place, and you are trying to correct this. I think a second opinion is a good idea. Even if it is entropian, it is a fairly simple procedure to rectify so shouldn't be too expensive, although I think because you let the puppy go with the infection and did not disclose that the vet had said it could be genetic (entropian is genetic) as a breeder you are responsible for selling a puppy that did not have a clean bill of health, and that is what the law will look at, regardless of contracts and intentions. Had the puppy gone with a clean bill of health, it would have been a slightly different situation, although, as said, even if it is entropian it shouldn't be too costly. However, it is highly likely that the owners will ever be able to get any insurance that will cover them for any kind of eye problem in the future.


I didn't know the Dam involved was an unregistered bitch - I can't see how it matters now, puppies have been born and all in their new homes. I agree perhaps looking at things from a breeders perspective the litter shouldn't have been born in the first place to an unregistered bitch, I can't and never will agree to that. I agree that the stud dog owners should not have allowed the mating to take place, it says a lot about a person when things are done for money...
But, all I can see is that Candysmum has tried to do the right thing by all concerned and I haven't got a problem with people breeding as long as it is done for the love of the dogs with their health and wellbeing regarded as top priority. I've never bred but if I did I would only breed from the best I could afford, dogs that were registered with the relevent breed clubs, K.C etc and only after all health tests had been completed and I was confident it would improve on what I already had. 
I really do think breeding is really best left to the experts, thats why I never bothered.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Candysmum worked her socks off for those puppies and as far as I am aware she did suitable health tests on the pups and did more than enough research before breeding from Candy. Yes, she isn't KC registered, but the potential owners were all forewarned that the mother and pups weren't, so as long as Candy & the stud were in good health, I don't see what the big problem is - people were told beforehand that they shouldn't be bred from and can't be showed because of the lack of registration. She also tried extremely hard to get the papers for Candy. But maybe I am missing something with the KC registration.

And im sure she certainly didn't breed them just to see some cute puppies  she deserves a little more bloomin credit than that.

I really hope this is resolved one way or another! Is lupi the liver spotted one?


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> And im sure she certainly didn't breed them just to see some cute puppies she deserves a little more bloomin credit than that.


I didn't say that and I'm aware of the care Candysmum has taken. My point was simply that it is not as simple as many people think, even when they think they have done research there are usually many things they have overlooked. As an example, even checking the kc registration for one, which should have been the first thing done to check there weren't endorsements on them.

I'm not getting at anyone, just pointing out that the puppy buyers in this case have a very strong case, regardless of how much care the breeder thinks they have done.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Dundee said:


> I didn't say that and I'm aware of the care Candysmum has taken. My point was simply that it is not as simple as many people think, even when they think they have done research there are usually many things they have overlooked. As an example, even checking the kc registration for one, which should have been the first thing done to check there weren't endorsements on them.
> 
> I'm not getting at anyone, just pointing out that the puppy buyers in this case have a very strong case, regardless of how much care the breeder thinks they have done.


I wish you could tell my neighbours this, they bought a Chihuahua pup on Friday and are already thinking of buying a female to mate him with "cos the pups make like £2000 each" 

I do understand your point, I just think she's had a lot of stick on this thread over things which she already knows about, she's not daft. It's just an unfortunate turn of events really, it's not like she's gone catastrophically wrong anywhere, I think its just a bummer of a situation which could really happen to anyone, no matter how careful they could be. It's partly the vet's fault for not making it a little clearer about the genetic disorder, if my vet made it as a passing comment, I wouldn't worry about it either because i'd trust them to be a little more thorough


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Ive only read up to your bit about the contract and 48hrs to see a vet. You mention that your dog has never shown signs of this and it will probably be from the studs 1/2.

Did you arrange a contract with the stud owner? Did you make any arrangements at all? The stud owner in my mind is just as responsible for this as you so id get in touch with them - if only to say not to breed him again?? 

Is this your first litter? - If your worried about being sued and a previous litter is clear then chances are its from the new stud.... though you will have needed written arrangements with them for anything to stand up id expect


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Portia Elizabeth said:


> I wish you could tell my neighbours this, they bought a Chihuahua pup on Friday and are already thinking of buying a female to mate him with "cos the pups make like £2000 each"
> 
> I do understand your point, I just think she's had a lot of stick on this thread over things which she already knows about, she's not daft. It's just an unfortunate turn of events really, it's not like she's gone catastrophically wrong anywhere, I think its just a bummer of a situation which could really happen to anyone, no matter how careful they could be. It's partly the vet's fault for not making it a little clearer about the genetic disorder, if my vet made it as a passing comment, I wouldn't worry about it either because i'd trust them to be a little more thorough


dogs are only worth as much as people are willing to pay for them - and in present times ....... thats not much


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## ruby2ruby (Apr 29, 2009)

james1 said:


> dogs are only worth as much as people are willing to pay for them - and in present times ....... thats not much


I don't really think puppy prices have altered that much, even in present times. I'm looking to add a new puppy later on this year, prices are still the same within the breed I am interested in if not higher than ever before..


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Portia Elizabeth said:


> I do understand your point, I just think she's had a lot of stick on this thread over things which she already knows about, she's not daft. It's just an unfortunate turn of events really, it's not like she's gone catastrophically wrong anywhere, I think its just a bummer of a situation which could really happen to anyone, no matter how careful they could be. It's partly the vet's fault for not making it a little clearer about the genetic disorder, if my vet made it as a passing comment, I wouldn't worry about it either because i'd trust them to be a little more thorough


Unfortunately Vets do not know all Genetic disease/ illnesses.
As for getting a lot of stick on this thread I do not see it that way. Facts are facts not "stick".
Candysmum I do feel for you but as you have said that is 2 pups who have had issues re eyes and deaf pups from this litter I do believe. Obviously there is something being carried in the Dam or Sires lines.
I do believe the new owners could take this further to their benefit as imo the Pup should have been kept till treatment had been finished and re-examined again by Vet before rehoming. 
You have to look at it from 2 sides


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

Hi
im not having a go but you should not have let them have the pup as a breeder you should have kept hold of it.
Im sorry but i think it is a breeders responsabilty!

I hope you manage sort it all out
I have never been in a situation like this so i carnt realy advice.


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

Portia Elizabeth said:


> Candysmum worked her socks off for those puppies and as far as I am aware she did suitable health tests on the pups and did more than enough research before breeding from Candy. Yes, she isn't KC registered, but the potential owners were all forewarned that the mother and pups weren't, so as long as Candy & the stud were in good health, I don't see what the big problem is - people were told beforehand that they shouldn't be bred from and can't be showed because of the lack of registration. She also tried extremely hard to get the papers for Candy. But maybe I am missing something with the KC registration.
> 
> And im sure she certainly didn't breed them just to see some cute puppies  she deserves a little more bloomin credit than that.
> 
> I really hope this is resolved one way or another! Is lupi the liver spotted one?


Thank you

Yes Lupi is the Liver one.

I didn;t do this for cute puppies or for money at all it was a passion i have always wanted to do and the time arose. As most of you know candy was brought as a KC reg bitch. she went to stud and i wasn;t asked fr paperwork it was only when i came to filling in the form to register the litter i found that she had not been regisitered i did everything in my power to get her paperwork and as this didn;t happen when i advertised the pups i let everyone know the situation regarding the paperwork.

Everything was done in the way it should have been i did not jump stages or steps in total i got £2500 for all the pups i spent that and more!

I admit i should of kept the puppy back but as i was told it was an eye infection i saw no trouble in letting her go HAD THE VET STATED more promintaly that it could be a genictic thing i would have 1 kept her back or 2 told the new owners. NOT once have i ever lied or cheated anyone and i would never do that.

Thank you for all your help i have done all i can in offering them to pay to get a second vet to look. i have offered half the bill for the op and i have offered a return on a full refund. Until they get back to me i do not know more.

I am now going to ask a Mod if they can close the thread as i dont want a debate here about what i did and didn't do right. about the fact my bitch is unregistered thats not the issues here the issue is a mistake i made regarding 1 puppy. Its got nothing to do with the deaf one or anything else.

Candy has been spayed she is not having any more pups much to my horror she was a great mum.


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## carol (Nov 2, 2007)

candysmum said:


> Thank you
> 
> Yes Lupi is the Liver one.
> 
> ...


hi candy, 
you done the best job due to things going wrong about the registery of you girlie you did everything right,
and i know of some top breeders who dont even bother doing the right tests if tests at all, anyway were not on about that.
you have offered to take the dog back, to pay for half the op. so cant see what else you can do really.

hope it all works out.


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## estalearottweilers (Mar 30, 2008)

hi candy. hope it all gets sorted for. i also think you have taken on board what people have said to this thread very very well. the biggest thing any breeder can do is admit they have done wrong, this for me is what you have done and hopefully you can keep contact with this puppy and will turn out the best for her.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

ruby2ruby said:


> I don't really think puppy prices have altered that much, even in present times. I'm looking to add a new puppy later on this year, prices are still the same within the breed I am interested in if not higher than ever before..


you may be willing to pay the full price but my point is - its a buyers market, if a dog is overpriced they wont sell. I know of breeders who have stopped completely due to not being able to sell their pups and had to move them into rescues. My comment was directed at Portia Elizabeth, where her neighbours were thinking of buying a bitch to gain the profits from pups. Advice being 'if nobody can afford them - nobody will be buying them'


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## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

carol said:


> hi candy,
> you done the best job due to things going wrong about the registery of you girlie you did everything right,
> and i know of some top breeders who dont even bother doing the right tests if tests at all, anyway were not on about that.
> you have offered to take the dog back, to pay for half the op. so cant see what else you can do really.
> ...


don't beet your self up about this you did a good job


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

The people have called me

We have spoken and both appoligized to each other them for the email and not ringing and me for not saying about the gentic thing

He has said the vet said it may correct itself and they are massaging the eye lid down like i said and so has the vet.

He even said that she is a credit to me and told me all the things she is getting up too.

I repeated that i would pay half of the cost of an operation and he was fine with that and has promised to keep me informed.

so it seems to be settle now.

Thanks again everyone!


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## carol (Nov 2, 2007)

thats great.


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## rotts05 (Jan 12, 2009)

Great news, glad it seems to be sorting out now.


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## estalearottweilers (Mar 30, 2008)

candysmum said:


> The people have called me
> 
> We have spoken and both appoligized to each other them for the email and not ringing and me for not saying about the gentic thing
> 
> ...


thats brill glad you got to speak to them b4 going down the legal road. would think that most of their reaction to you was just from shock. good luck and fingers crossed as the pup grows the eye will correct on its own.


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## ruby2ruby (Apr 29, 2009)

james1 said:


> you may be willing to pay the full price but my point is - its a buyers market, if a dog is overpriced they wont sell. I know of breeders who have stopped completely due to not being able to sell their pups and had to move them into rescues. My comment was directed at Portia Elizabeth, where her neighbours were thinking of buying a bitch to gain the profits from pups. Advice being 'if nobody can afford them - nobody will be buying them'


I disagree about it being a buyers market and it should never be where the sale of animals is concerned it makes things all too easy for people. The breed I am looking at, puppy prices remain high. Not that I am complaining, I think it's a good thing. I would sooner have the peace of mind knowing I am dealing with people who have been in the breed for years, do things for the love of the breed, breed only to preserve the breed or keep something back for themseleves, rather than play russian roulette and go to someone who knows nothing, has several litters a year and pay a second rate price for perhaps a second rate puppy that could have alsorts wrong with it. I agree that could happen with anyone I went to but at least going to someone who breeds for the love of the breed there would be perhaps more of a guarantee (maybe a new thread is needed for this - puppy prices etc..). I steer clear of classifieds when considering a new puppy, I contact breed clubs and from there on in everything is done through word of mouth, which is the way I believe things should be done, when considering a rescue dog I believe breed rescue is a good start.



candysmum said:


> The people have called me
> 
> We have spoken and both appoligized to each other them for the email and not ringing and me for not saying about the gentic thing
> 
> ...


Thats great news, really pleased for you


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## Small~Fluffy (Mar 13, 2009)

*I have to agree with you.
I do not think puppy prices have changed much in our Breed either.
But why should it, its not a tin of beans or something to be bartered over.

If someone wants something an is a good potential owner they will pay what the breeder is asking.

I also think if you pay £1000 for a puppy that lives for 15yrs it would have been more than worth the original outlay... for that many years of companionship, love etc*


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## ruby2ruby (Apr 29, 2009)

Small~Fluffy said:


> *I have to agree with you.
> I do not think puppy prices have changed much in our Breed either.
> But why should it, its not a tin of beans or something to be bartered over.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you have said. I would never insult a breeder by 'bartering' over the price of a puppy. As I said in todays current climate I feel keeping puppy prices high is a good thing, it stops people having 'grand' ideas...As I said probably another thread needed to debate this


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

candysmum said:


> The people have called me
> 
> We have spoken and both appoligized to each other them for the email and not ringing and me for not saying about the gentic thing
> 
> ...


Glad its settled, seems maybe they emailed you while they were abit hot headed and now regret it. You to me are a brilliant breeder you have offered to help them out with whatever path they wanted to take.


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

yay! Hoped everything is sorted now


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2009)

Glad it is all ok.

Hope the pups eye sorts itself out and everything is ok


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## Small~Fluffy (Mar 13, 2009)

I agree with everything you have said. I would never insult a breeder by 'bartering' over the price of a puppy. As I said in todays current climate I feel keeping puppy prices high is a good thing, it stops people having 'grand' ideas...As I said probably another thread needed to debate this

*
Yep agree again  if you can't afford the price being asked for the Breed you want then you can't afford a life times worth of food/vets/insurance etc.

I recently saw on the net that puppy sales have actually risen, due to people being at home more, no holidays etc. 
So spending more time with there pets, going out for walks etc.

I just hope they don't all think that they can breed them for a quick buck :frown5:*


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## louiseddb (Jan 31, 2008)

Hi

Just to add that she is yet far too young to have an op to correct entropian. If it is in fact entropian i would see a specialist about the condition then agree to pay half. 

A lesson learned in life, hope the pup makes a full recovery


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

louiseddb said:


> Hi
> 
> Just to add that she is yet far too young to have an op to correct entropian. If it is in fact entropian i would see a specialist about the condition then agree to pay half.
> 
> A lesson learned in life, hope the pup makes a full recovery


we know she is too young its and IF one has to be done!


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

Hi there
am new to this forum and have just been reading this thread.

I do not want to sound as if I am getting at you but Just wanted to ask what health checks you had done on the dam and was the sire health checked . 

Just wondering as an infection cannot just become "genetic " it would have to have been inherited from the parents and if you have not tested for this and the pup has inherited it from the parents then you could be held responsible for any vetinary treatment needed . 

You said that you had taken the pup to the vet yourself and they said that it was just an infection but what was the cause of the infection did the vet eplain that to you ? as some genetic eye dissorders make a dog prone to infections.There for if that is the case because you have sold the pup as healthy and it has a dissorder again you could be held liable for any treatmant needed.

I would go to the vet and get them to write you a letter stating what exactly was wrong with the pups eyes and what treatment was given . Then as long as you have got proof that you had the parents eye tested and everything was clear you might be able to come to an agreement withe new owners on how to deal with this problem.

I do not know what health problems Dalmations are prone to that is why I was asking about the health checks . Not trying to say it is your responsability but I agree that you should not have let the pup go to the new owners untill the eyes were better.

Hope you get this sorted out and in the mean time try not to get too stressed out as I can emagine you probably are worried.


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## louiseddb (Jan 31, 2008)

As it has been mentioned the condition that the puppy is suspected to have is entropian which can be inherited but it can also show up in a puppy whose parents are both free from the condition. 

there is no health test for such condition its just something that arises in dogs. A dog displaying entropian should not be bred from obviously and i very much doubt that the OP bred from a dog with entropian.

Being a forums newbie to come on and state that someone isnt health testing there dog, for a condition you dont seem to be familiar of, is not good form.
I have experience of this condition not in my own dogs but in friends dogs who they have either baught or bred themselves, one being a rottie and another a terrier.

Louise


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

louiseddb said:


> As it has been mentioned the condition that the puppy is suspected to have is entropian which can be inherited but it can also show up in a puppy whose parents are both free from the condition.
> 
> there is no health test for such condition its just something that arises in dogs. A dog displaying entropian should not be bred from obviously and i very much doubt that the OP bred from a dog with entropian.
> 
> ...


If you had taken time to read my post properly you would have seen that I asked the OP what health tests she had done on her dog and if the sire had been tested too. I did NOT say or imply that she had not done so !

her dog is also not KC reg so even if her dog and the sire had not got the condition it may have come from further down the line.You have stated that the OP will not be breeding from her girl again ,why I do not know as I never commented on whether she should have or is going to breed again the issue on this post was about the puppy.

Also it was a positive post and I was only stating the facts and what IMO I would have done before letting a pup go to a new home.

I may be a new poster and from what others have written and replied to the OP I think my post was not bad forum soo why are you criticising what I have said:confused1: Have you told all the other posters who have said things like she should pay the vet fees that there posts are bad too.?

This is a forum where opinions are asked for and thats all I have done whether I am new or not.

I also told the OP not to get stressed over it so as you can see my post was not sent to be little the origional poster so I am a bit on why you have been so off about my post


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