# Raising kids vegan a crime?



## Guest (Aug 14, 2016)

http://www.takepart.com/article/2016/08/13/anti-vegan-italian-law?cmpid=fi-fb
Just saw this article, so haven't fact checked it, but it does raise an interesting discussion question.
To what extent are parental choices prosecutable?

I'm be honest, the article got my hackles up. Our children don't eat meat at home, and the older they get the less meat they eat away from home as well. We try to educate them on intelligent nutrition, the role of nutrients, and the importance of getting the right balance of nutrients.

They are healthy, active, happy kids. The thought of a one year prison sentence for us, the parents, for choosing to provide nutritious food that just happens to be meat free is absolutely ludicrous.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

My children were all raised meat free until they were 5, one of them still is, the others don't eat much but I said if they wanted to they could.

I think it's more of a crime to feed a diet high in excessively processed food & takeaways.


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2016)

simplysardonic said:


> I think it's more of a crime to feed a diet high in excessively processed food & takeaways.


No shit! Sugary drinks in baby bottles and teething on McDonald's fries is okay but take out the meat and you're a criminal? Okay....


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

A crime, no.
However I do think that you should allow the child to decide for themselves if they want to eat meat or not.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

:Hilarious:Hilarious hysterical. A relative of mine has a two year old and they eat at McDonalds every single day - breakfast and sometimes lunch :Jawdrop Mother is overweight and 2 year old is on her way to being so too. Can people not understand nutrition isn't really about whether you eat meat or dairy or not but about good wholesome food. Some vegans live on chips and beer or wine so of course they are not healthy and not good role models and plenty of meat eaters are not healthy and not good role models.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

I think the problem is education and the lack of knowledge about what is needed to form a balanced and healthy diet.

I know in the UK that cases of malnutrition are on the rise, and those have nothing to do with being a vegan, but lazy, ignorant parenting, and the reliance on cheap, convenient foods.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

I only glanced at the article, but if I understood correctly, it's talking about parents who force the diet on their children.i.e. they don't even offer the meat option for their children as they're growing. No one will prosecute the parents if their child simply refuses to eat most or any meats at all, but they are still provided with necessary nutrients. I don't understand parents who simply decide from the moment their child is born that just because they choose to not eat meat or dairy, then their children will notget the option either. That is not only restricting their diet, but also affects their psychological development.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

Having read this article, it seems that the idea has come about because of children whose health was seriously affected (one child requiring heart surgery) because of a poor vegan diet. I can see why people would be concerned, but it would be far more sensible to prosecute parents who refused to provide their children with adequate nutrition - this would deal with those who fed their kids inadequate vegan diets and those who would only feed junk, while allowing the sensible majority to get on with feeding vegan, vegetarian or anything else, as long as it gave the child all that was needed for healthy development.

Having said that, I do think it is wrong for parents to be too controlling of their children's diets unless it is due to allergy/health reasons. I know a few kids who aren't allowed to go to friends' houses for tea in case they are given meat, milk or some other product the parent disagrees with. I feel really sad for the children having to miss out and worry about their social development. I wish the parents would give them a little more freedom and let them make their own minds up when they are older, but I still don't think this justifies state control


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2016)

Animallover26 said:


> However I do think that you should allow the child to decide for themselves if they want to eat meat or not.


Why?
When my kids were younger, they didn't get the choice of whether they wanted to drink water or sugar laden "health" drinks. They got water. 
They didn't get the choice whether they wanted fruit or processed, packaged cakes for a snack, they got the fruit. A choice of fruit, sure, but fruit not cakes.

Meat is not something I ever have in the house (unless it's dog food) why should I be forced to have it available for my children as a "choice" when I'm perfectly capable of providing more than adequate nutrition for them without meat?

What about families who for religious reasons don't eat animal flesh? Should they be required to give their children the "choice" of eating meat?


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## foxiesummer (Feb 4, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> :Hilarious:Hilarious hysterical. A relative of mine has a two year old and they eat at McDonalds every single day - breakfast and sometimes lunch :Jawdrop Mother is overweight and 2 year old is on her way to being so too. Can people not understand nutrition isn't really about whether you eat meat or dairy or not but about good wholesome food. Some vegans live on chips and beer or wine so of course they are not healthy and not good role models and plenty of meat eaters are not healthy and not good role models.


I've noticed that McDonalds seems to have replaced the Sunday roast by the amount of cars queuing at their drive-in.


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

CuddleMonster said:


> Having read this article, it seems that the idea has come about because of children whose health was seriously affected (one child requiring heart surgery) because of a poor vegan diet. I can see why people would be concerned, but it would be far more sensible to prosecute parents who refused to provide their children with adequate nutrition - this would deal with those who fed their kids inadequate vegan diets and those who would only feed junk, while allowing the sensible majority to get on with feeding vegan, vegetarian or anything else, as long as it gave the child all that was needed for healthy development.
> 
> Having said that, I do think it is wrong for parents to be too controlling of their children's diets unless it is due to allergy/health reasons. I know a few kids who aren't allowed to go to friends' houses for tea in case they are given meat, milk or some other product the parent disagrees with. I feel really sad for the children having to miss out and worry about their social development. I wish the parents would give them a little more freedom and let them make their own minds up when they are older, but I still don't think this justifies state control


Not in the house, but let them eat meat when out if they wish.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Not sure I understand the whole "forced" thing. When you are a young child you eat what your parents have available, if you want crisps and sweets your parents hopefully tell you why thats not a good idea but we all know once the kids go to school, mix with other children etc they make their own decisions and will eat crisps & sweets if they want to. I hated brussel sprouts as a kid but my Mum had the idea that we should eat what was put in front of us and could not leave the table until we had done so. I can remember retching and crying but she sat there watching over me and told me I would get them for my tea and for my breakfast until I ate them up so I forced them down. She was in other words forcing her view that brussel spouts were good for me on me whether I liked them or not as many parents do with all sorts of food stuffs. Of course when I was old enough to tell her where to stick her spouts I did and I didn't eat them out of protest for many years but now I love them


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2016)

Animallover26 said:


> Not in the house, but let them eat meat when out if they wish.


Again why?
And what age are we talking about?

My children are now 13 (twins) and they get much more autonomy in what they eat, especially when they're out with friends.

However, when they were young, OH and I still very much had a say in what they ate. As it was, they did end up eating meat at friend's houses, but I never gave them (or any other child in my care) free rein to eat whatever they want.



rottiepointerhouse said:


> I hated brussel sprouts as a kid but my Mum had the idea that we should eat what was put in front of us and could not leave the table until we had done so. I can remember retching and crying but she sat there watching over me and told me I would get them for my tea and for my breakfast until I ate them up so I forced them down. She was in other words forcing her view that brussel spouts were good for me on me whether I liked them or not as many parents do with all sorts of food stuffs.


Yeah, I've never understood this. I never forced my children to eat something they didn't like (and ironically, many children do not like eating meat, yet get forced to eat it because their parents think they need it). I have always presented a variety of options and now have kids who eat a variety of foods, neither eat much meat at all.


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Again why?
> And what age are we talking about?
> 
> My children are now 13 (twins) and they get much more autonomy in what they eat, especially when they're out with friends.
> ...


Why not?

And before it is suggested, I'm not keen on meat, as a child I was made to eat meat, I hated it and would rather have not, but it was eat meat or go hungry.

I'm not suggesting people just let the child/children have a free rein with all food, just let them have the choice of eating meat or not.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

From Rip Esselstyn's Engine 2 (plant food based diet) website

By the age of two (once off mother’s milk), every child is ready for a plant-strong diet. Even renowned expert Dr. Benjamin Spock recommends the practice in the latest edition of his classic bestselling book, Baby and Child Care. If you start them young, your kids will develop a palate that appreciates the subtleties of plant foods and will gain the healthy rewards that accompany this diet as they grow.

Pregnant women, meanwhile, can get all the vitamins, nutrients, and minerals that both they and their babies need to be healthy and well. My wife, Jill, ate an all-plant-based diet throughout her pregnancy with no morning sickness and no complications. She later gave birth to our very healthy eight-pound, seven-ounce baby, Kole, the little love of our lives.


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2016)

Animallover26 said:


> Why not?


Because for many parents (I'm one of them) offering your child meat is not a healthy or ethical choice. And meat is not necessary in a healthy, balanced diet. 
So why should I be forced to offer that choice to my children when I'm perfectly capable of offering them balanced nutrition without meat?


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

One of the reasons I chose not to feed my children meat was because of the BSE scare, but also the ethical reasons.

I didn't give my children the 'choice' of eating junk food when they were small, as it just wasn't bought, so wasn't in the home. 

I found it funny that the choices I made for my childrens' health & wellbeing apparently made me a 'bad' parent, & yes, some parents did give me the Spanish Inquisition as to why they weren't pumped full of crap


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Meat is not something I ever have in the house (unless it's dog food)


I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but can I ask why you think it's ok for animals to die to feed your pets but you don't eat meat yourself (assuming it's a principle thing rather than a health thing)?

Just interested


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

I'm not vegan (or even vegetarian), but as far as I understand it, veganism is a lifestyle based on deeply held convictions - so in that regard, not that dissimilar to a religion. As a Christian, I know how I would feel if I were told it is now illegal to take my kids to church. So, as long as the kids are not being harmed by their diet, what right does the government have to interfere with family life in this way? When the kids are old enough to make their own decisions, they should be allowed to do so - though the parents also have every right to explain their feelings on the matter to their kids, and to be saddened if the children decide not to follow the same lifestyle as their parents. I think this applies to veganism, religion, or any other lifestyle based on a strong conviction about something being right or wrong.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Animallover26 said:


> A crime, no.
> However I do think that you should allow the child to decide for themselves if they want to eat meat or not.


I agree, it should be the childs choice when they are old enough to make it, and so the issue comes down to the time before they are old enough to make that decision- should you feed them meat first and eventually they can decide if they want to give it up, or should you not feed them meat and eventually they can decide if they would like to start eating it. Either way you are essentially pushing your opinions onto the child before the child is old enough to make an informed choice... Be that meat eating or vegetarianism. I know a few people who were raised vegetarian and they find meat eating repulsive, one of em feels sick at the smell of meat... and theres plenty of meat eaters who disagree with the meat industry on principle but meat eating is a deeply ingrained habit and for many is very difficult to give up...

Your initial choice for the child will probably have an influence on them for their whole lives.

I cant say one is better than the other, they are the same, just different.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

ouesi said:


> perfectly capable of providing more than adequate nutrition for them without meat?


It appears this is what the parents weren't capable of doing. It's a bit sad it was a vegan diet involved because really it's all about a kneejerk reaction to poor diets which just happened to be vegan. Unfortunately it is a subject area which has been taken over by many a charlatan posing as an expert so in a way I do understand the concern. So called 'nutritionists' have flooded the internet with wild claims for some pretty wild and very restricted diets. Often referred to as 'clean eating' they're no way to feed a child.


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Because for many parents (I'm one of them) offering your child meat is not a healthy or ethical choice. And meat is not necessary in a healthy, balanced diet.
> So why should I be forced to offer that choice to my children when I'm perfectly capable of offering them balanced nutrition without meat?


Not talking about you. Just in general.

If 'you' don't eat meat, then fine, the child doesn't eat it too inside the home, but outside the home they should have the choice to eat or not eat meat as they so wish.

Anyway, I'm off....


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2016)

MilleD said:


> I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but can I ask why you think it's ok for animals to die to feed your pets but you don't eat meat yourself (assuming it's a principle thing rather than a health thing)?
> 
> Just interested


Perfectly valid question 

The simple answer is that humans don't need meat in their diet and dogs and cats do. (I know it's a more complex nutritional answer here, but bottom line is I believe I can provide a healthy, balanced diet or my children without meat, but I can't or my dogs and cats.)

The raw meat I feed my pets is either ethically sourced or hunted (by my neighbor who is generous enough to share what he doesn't use with us), so the animal has lead a natural life and had a clean kill. 
Hypocritically the kibble my dogs eat is not made with ethically sourced meat, and that does bother me, but I ease my cognitive dissonance by telling myself our "factory farm footprint" is smaller than it would be if the humans as well as the dogs and cats ate meat.

It's basically the thread theory that Jane Goodall talks about, and Michael Pollan in his very excellent book "The Omnivore's Dilemma". 
"Michael Pollan likens consumer choices to pulling single threads out of a garment. We pull a thread from the garment when we refuse to purchase eggs or meat from birds who were raised in confinement, whose beaks were clipped so they could never once taste their natural diet of worms and insects. We pull out a thread when we refuse to bring home a hormone-fattened turkey for Thanksgiving dinner. We pull a thread when we refuse to buy meat or dairy products from cows who were never allowed to chew grass, or breathe fresh air, or feel the warm sun on their backs.
The more threads we pull, the more difficult it is for the industry to stay intact. You demand eggs and meat without hormones, and the industry will have to figure out how it can raise farm animals without them. Let the animals graze outside and it slows production. Eventually the whole thing will have to unravel.
If the factory farm does indeed unravel - and it must - then there is hope that we can, gradually, reverse the environmental damage it has caused. Once the animal feed operations have gone and livestock are once again able to graze, there will be a massive reduction in the agricultural chemicals currently used to grow grain for animals. And eventually, the horrendous contamination caused by animal waste can be cleaned up. None of this will be easy.
The hardest part of returning to a truly healthy environment may be changing the current totally unsustainable heavy-meat-eating culture of increasing numbers of people around the world. But we must try. We must make a start, one by one." ~Jane Goodall

Every little bit each of us can do helps. I help by not eating meat and raising my children with awareness of where their food comes from. (We also talk about migrant workers and the human and environmental cost of out of season and non-local produce.)
I'm not against humans eating meat per-se. I'm against mindless consumption.


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## elmthesofties (Aug 8, 2011)

I definitely don't have kids and don't intend to, but I'd personally be a bit scared to give any kids meat, as it's not something I'd feel confident preparing. With vegetables and things, the worst that can happen is they stay a bit too crunchy, a bit too strong, etc. You don't want to mess around with poorly cooked meat, especially with children.

I suppose it's okay if I were to provide them with a nutritionally balanced vegan diet at home, but to take them out to McDonald's every other day. As long as it isn't strictly vegan, it's definitely a better diet for these hypothetical children to live off.


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2016)

havoc said:


> It appears this is what the parents weren't capable of doing. It's a bit sad it was a vegan diet involved because really it's all about a kneejerk reaction to poor diets which just happened to be vegan. Unfortunately it is a subject area which has been taken over by many a charlatan posing as an expert so in a way I do understand the concern. So called 'nutritionists' have flooded the internet with wild claims for some pretty wild and very restricted diets. Often referred to as 'clean eating' they're no way to feed a child.


If a parent isn't capable of providing adequate nutrition to their child, that's a parenting issue, not a vegan issue. 
What about parents who's toddlers are obese - yes toddlers, and facing a lifetime of health issues because of poor parenting there?
And frankly there are far more kids suffering from obesity that there are kids suffering because of vegan diets.


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2016)

Found another article on the same thing. Yeah... Elvira Savino is an idiot....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...e-for-parents-to-feed-their-kids-vegan-diets/


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

ouesi said:


> If a parent isn't capable of providing adequate nutrition to their child, that's a parenting issue, not a vegan issue.


Agree 100%. If I didn't come across that way then it's because I'm useless at expressing myself. Poor diet is poor diet and that's exactly the point I wanted to get across.


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2016)

ouesi said:


> What about families who for religious reasons don't eat animal flesh? Should they be required to give their children the "choice" of eating meat?


I notice this one hasn't been answered


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

While not a crime to feed kids vegan, if my child said I want to be a meat eater, veggy, whatever, then I wouldnt care and I wouldn't have an issue and would happily prepare those meals. 

Same applies for religions. I wouldn't force one upon my child.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

ouesi said:


> I notice this one hasn't been answered


My opinion - no they shouldn't when the kids are young; let the parents raise their children according to their beliefs. When they're old enough to make their own minds up, if they choose to reject their parents' religion, the parents have every right to be sad/disappointed and to debate with them about it, but no right to force them.


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2016)

So if a child asks for meat, I as a parent have to provide that for them? And prepare it? As someone who became vegetarian long before I ever learned to cook, (and arguably I still have not exactly learned to cook well) no one wants me to prepare any meat dish for them! 

What if the child asks for soda? Am I required to keep soda (fizzy drinks) in the house because my child asked for them?

I can tell you right now, I have one child who would *love* it if we kept oreos in the house. We don’t. I’m not going to have a duck if someone else provides oreos for him, and on rare occasions I may even buy them as a treat, but it’s not something we keep on hand in the house. Nor do I feel any particular responsibility to, even if it’s my child’s ‘choice’ to want to eat them.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

At the time I had my son I had been a pescatarian for many years. My husband was/is a meat eater.

We decided to give my son an omnivore diet and allow him to make a choice when he was old enough. At 19 now, he's still omnivore.

Whatever diet one chooses for a child it needs to contain the right nutrients etc. to ensure the child develops properly. Regardless which choice one makes they don't need to eat loads of crap, sugar, salt, fat etc.

You can get it wrong, whichever way you go but parents have a duty to give their kids a healthy, balanced diet in general terms.

As for feeding my dog meat, he's a carnivore


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## Little-moomin (Sep 28, 2008)

I'd like to raise my children vegan. But only when I am confident I understand nutrition properly and will be able to get the right foods into them. A vegan diet can be healthy if done properly 

I will educate them on the meat and diary industry and if, they choose to eat it when older that's fine. And off course, they are free to choose but I would not provide it at home


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

ouesi said:


> So if a child asks for meat, I as a parent have to provide that for them? And prepare it? As someone who became vegetarian long before I ever learned to cook, (and arguably I still have not exactly learned to cook well) no one wants me to prepare any meat dish for them!
> 
> What if the child asks for soda? Am I required to keep soda (fizzy drinks) in the house because my child asked for them?
> 
> I can tell you right now, I have one child who would *love* it if we kept oreos in the house. We don't. I'm not going to have a duck if someone else provides oreos for him, and on rare occasions I may even buy them as a treat, but it's not something we keep on hand in the house. Nor do I feel any particular responsibility to, even if it's my child's 'choice' to want to eat them.


I am not sure you can compare a child eating meat to a child wanting soda. Eating meat does not necessarily equal unhealthy.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> So if a child asks for meat, I as a parent have to provide that for them? And prepare it? As someone who became vegetarian long before I ever learned to cook, (and arguably I still have not exactly learned to cook well) no one wants me to prepare any meat dish for them!
> 
> What if the child asks for soda? Am I required to keep soda (fizzy drinks) in the house because my child asked for them?
> 
> I can tell you right now, I have one child who would *love* it if we kept oreos in the house. We don't. I'm not going to have a duck if someone else provides oreos for him, and on *rare occasions I may even buy them as a treat,* but it's not something we keep on hand in the house. Nor do I feel any particular responsibility to, even if it's my child's 'choice' to want to eat them.


This!

I had enough friends & family members who would 'treat' my children to sweets & other junk I saw no need to buy it myself, except at Christmas when we all have a bit of an indulgence.

If junk food is a daily occurence it ceases to be a treat & becomes normalised.


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2016)

stuaz said:


> I am not sure you can compare a child eating meat to a child wanting soda. Eating meat does not necessarily equal unhealthy.


 It's not about whether it's healthy or not, but if it's necessary. Soda is not necessary in a child's diet and neither is meat. 
My point is that there are all sorts of things we as parents choose not to provide for our children. There are lots of things in the grocery store my kids ask for that I say "no" to. That's my choice, as a parent, what I choose to provide for them or not. "No, we're not getting the out of season ridiculously expensive melon, no we're not getting cookies, no we're not buying gatorade, I know all your friends drink it but I'm not giving you high fructose corn syrup if I can avoid it..." I could go on and on.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

ouesi said:


> It's not about whether it's healthy or not, but if it's necessary. Soda is not necessary in a child's diet and neither is meat.
> My point is that there are all sorts of things we as parents choose not to provide for our children. There are lots of things in the grocery store my kids ask for that I say "no" to. That's my choice, as a parent, what I choose to provide for them or not. "No, we're not getting the out of season ridiculously expensive melon, no we're not getting cookies, no we're not buying gatorade, I know all your friends drink it but I'm not giving you high fructose corn syrup if I can avoid it..." I could go on and on.


And that's your method of parenting. Some parents would see meat as nesscary in a child's diet.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I'm a strong believer in allowing children to make their own moral choices - including vegetarianism/religion.

But I understand that they must reach a certain age before they are capable of making those choices. I don't know what that age is. I'm not a parent and I can't recall from my own childhood the age at which I felt able to make such decisions.

I am an outspoken critic of 'ethical' vegetarianism (not for this discussion) but think making it illegal to raise children on such a diet is completely ridiculous where it's legal to raise them on a diet of junk food. 

My mother, a vegetarian, cooked and fed us meat when we were growing up. The choice was there for us to become vegetarian if we so wished. It's my perception that this scenario is common - I'm not sure why a meat-eating parent raising their child vegetarian, with the choice to later eat meat if they so wished - would be viewed as strange. But I think it would be.

I find this whole matter too difficult to navigate with my moral compass - but I certainly disagree that the law should have any bearing on it.


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2016)

stuaz said:


> And that's your method of parenting. Some parents would see meat as nesscary in a child's diet.


And for those parents I 100% support their choice to provide meat for their children.

What I'm trying to point out is that there are many choices we don't offer our children in the way of food. I know parents who refuse to buy grapes for their kids. Even if the kids ask for them. (I know because the oldest of these kids is my daughter's friend and that's one of her favorite things about our house is that grapes are allowed and we usually have a lot of other tasty fruit available.) I flat refuse to go to McDonalds. My kids know this, and never ask to go. It's never been an option. Sure, they have eaten McD with friends, but they know that's not something *I* provide for them. 
I don't see how not providing meat is any different.

My other issue is, this legislation is saying that not providing a specific food - meat, should be criminalized. Which is IMHO beyond ridiculous.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Don't they have health visitors in Italy, or failing that, neighbours? A baby weighing 11lbs at 1 yr old should have been noticed. Poor mite. I reckon poverty causes a lot more malnutirition than vegans -so can the governement of the day be held responsible?

I do wonder though what it is about meateaters that makes them quite so keen to press their choice on others - ime vegetarians are much more likely to take the laissez-faire approach and let their kids eat meat outside the house than meateaters are to let theirs be veggie.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

foxiesummer said:


> I've noticed that McDonalds seems to have replaced the Sunday roast by the amount of cars queuing at their drive-in.


I think there are lots of families that have never had a proper Sunday Roast, lots of people have know idea how to cook one.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

What people feed their children should be nobody else's business as long as it's a nutritious diet and the child is healthy. Whether it's vegetarian, pescetarian, vegan or a meat diet.

I'm a pescetarian but if I ever have children, I wouldn't force that upon them. If they wanted meat and it was a healthy choice of meat, I would cook it for them. If they wanted vegan and it was a healthy choice of vegan, I would cook that for them too. If they wanted snack food, I would let them have it, within reason. What other people do though is their choice, their business and nobody else's.

When I was a child, we very rarely had junk food in the house. We never had takeaway and the choice of drink was either water or milk. Dinners were nearly always potatoes, meat and vegetables. I hated veg and I stopped eating meat when I was 9/10 yrs old. My mum went through hell trying to find food I would eat that was still healthy.

Despite all my mums efforts to feed me healthy foods as a child, when I started working and earning my own money, I binged on all the things I felt like I was "deprived" of as a kid. I live on junk food and takeaways with the occasional bit of pasta, fish, eggs and a vegetable or two thrown in. I'm overweight, have an appalling diet and a serious addiction to Diet Coke  Go figure!


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## Royoyo (Feb 21, 2013)

There's a huge difference between your child just eating what you eat or punishing them for not doing so.

Personally I wouldn't want to put those types of restrictions on my child but anyone else who does it's got nothing all to do with me or anyone else and it's kind of laughable they would equate it to a crime.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

ouesi said:


> And for those parents I 100% support their choice to provide meat for their children.
> 
> What I'm trying to point out is that there are many choices we don't offer our children in the way of food. I know parents who refuse to buy grapes for their kids. Even if the kids ask for them. (I know because the oldest of these kids is my daughter's friend and that's one of her favorite things about our house is that grapes are allowed and we usually have a lot of other tasty fruit available.) I flat refuse to go to McDonalds. My kids know this, and never ask to go. It's never been an option. Sure, they have eaten McD with friends, but they know that's not something *I* provide for them.
> I don't see how not providing meat is any different.


How do you stand if the issue is reversed? If a child is raised eating meat and then decides they wish to become vegetarian do you think that it would be right for the parents to refuse that choice? I personally think that is wrong.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I find it interesting that some meat eaters feel that we are 'pushing' our beliefs onto our children when they don't have the choice, but no one ever thinks that when it comes to meat eating- some children become quite distressed when they make the connection between the lambs in the field & the flesh on their plates.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Perfectly valid question
> 
> The simple answer is that humans don't need meat in their diet and dogs and cats do. (I know it's a more complex nutritional answer here, but bottom line is I believe I can provide a healthy, balanced diet or my children without meat, but I can't or my dogs and cats.)
> 
> ...


Thank you for explaining. I understand perfectly .

I pass lots of cows grazing when I cycle to work. It would be a sad world if they were all inside a factory.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

simplysardonic said:


> I find it interesting that some meat eaters feel that we are 'pushing' our beliefs onto our children when they don't have the choice, but no one ever thinks that when it comes to meat eating- some children become quite distressed when they make the connection between the lambs in the field & the flesh on their plates.


I used to insist my son ate at least *some *vegetables when he went through a fussy stage. 

However, if a child realises where meat comes from and doesn't want to eat it anymore, I can't believe any caring parent would force them, surely? 

Nowadays, it's relatively easy to replace meat on a plate with a vegetarian alternative and add a multi vitamin to the diet to cover all bases if a parent is concerned their child might be lacking something by not eating meat.

It gets a bit more complicated when the child is old enough to learn about all the meat derivatives in the average omnivore diet!


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

I had a friend who was a happy carnivore until her school did a lesson on the evils of meat-eating - she came home and announced to her mother that she was now a vegetarian. Her mums response was 'Fine. If you don't want to eat what I cook, there are the pots and pans - cook your own.' She cooked her own veggie meals from age 10 until her late teens when she went back to meat-eating.


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

Well, I don't really "get" the idea of wanting to omit all animal products from your diet, but if you are a vegan I don't see why it should be a crime to raise your kids on the same diet as yours, providing that they are getting all the required nutrients. When your kids are old enough to understand the concept of veganism, they should be able to decide whether they want to continye being vegans or not.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

FeelTheBern said:


> Well, I don't really "get" the idea of wanting to omit all animal products from your diet, but if you are a vegan I don't see why it should be a crime to raise your kids on the same diet as yours, providing that they are getting all the required nutrients. When your kids are old enough to understand the concept of veganism, they should be able to decide whether they want to continye being vegans or not.


What is there to "get", people are vegan for all sorts of reasons, some for ethical reasons which can vary from not wanting to eat animals or animal products for moral or religious reasons, to not wanting to support factory farming and the cruelty involved in a lot of modern day farming methods. Others become vegan for environmental reasons and others become vegan more for health reasons including many who have totally reversed their heart disease and diabetes and numerous other chronic illnesses which they would prefer their children not to get. Many doctors believe there is a link between dairy consumption and the development of Type 1 Diabetes.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

CuddleMonster said:


> I had a friend who was a happy carnivore until her school did a lesson on the evils of meat-eating - she came home and announced to her mother that she was now a vegetarian. Her mums response was 'Fine. If you don't want to eat what I cook, there are the pots and pans - cook your own.' She cooked her own veggie meals from age 10 until her late teens when she went back to meat-eating.


Strange behaviour from a mum to a child of 10 IMO.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Lurcherlad said:


> I used to insist my son ate at least *some *vegetables when he went through a fussy stage.
> 
> However, if a child realises where meat comes from and doesn't want to eat it anymore, *I can't believe any caring parent would force them, surely?*
> 
> ...


As a teenager I gave up meat for ethical reasons, my stepmother (scary woman, but that's another story!) threatened to whale me one if I didn't eat the chicken on my plate at her parents' house, as her father had 'gone to a lot of trouble to cook', so yeah, there are some people out there like that.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Sorry if this has already been said. , not read all the thread. Being vegan is not the same as being vegetarian. Its more than not eating meat .
I have been vegetarian myself but kids made their own choices and dogs ate meat . I only eat chicken now . Not eaten other meat for over 30 years .


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> What is there to "get", people are vegan for all sorts of reasons, some for ethical reasons which can vary from not wanting to eat animals or animal products for moral or religious reasons, to not wanting to support factory farming and the cruelty involved in a lot of modern day farming methods. Others become vegan for environmental reasons and others become vegan more for health reasons including many who have totally reversed their heart disease and diabetes and numerous other chronic illnesses which they would prefer their children not to get. Many doctors believe there is a link between dairy consumption and the development of Type 1 Diabetes.


Yeah, i don't get the "don't get it" brigade either.

Had a brief discussion with OH at the weekend when I asked for black coffee at his brother's - they know I've gone dairy free  Usual responses from family :Yawn .... what about goat's milk?

Me: that's dairy. OH: yeah but it's not the same as the cow's milk industry.

Aaaargh! 

Me to OH only: why are you even trying to have this conversation again, when it was explained in detail to you a few weeks ago, cos you didn't get it! Just LET IT GO! I am happy with black coffee!!!!!!!! Have milk in yours if you want!!!!!!!!


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

simplysardonic said:


> As a teenager I gave up meat for ethical reasons, my stepmother (scary woman, but that's another story!) threatened to whale me one if I didn't eat the chicken on my plate at her parents' house, as her father had 'gone to a lot of trouble to cook', so yeah, there are some people out there like that.


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2016)

porps said:


> How do you stand if the issue is reversed? If a child is raised eating meat and then decides they wish to become vegetarian do you think that it would be right for the parents to refuse that choice? I personally think that is wrong.


Not an equal analogy though. 
Again I'm going to take meat out of the equation for a minute to try and remove the emotional aspect.
Let's go back to that mom who never has grapes in the house. She doesn't provide grapes for her children. That's not the same as forcing her children to eat grapes if they don't want them. Not making a certain food available - that's not nutritionally necessary, is not the same thing as forcing a child to eat a food they don't want to eat. 
I don't provide meat for my children, but I would absolutely never force them to eat something they didn't want to eat for either taste reasons or ethical ones.

Or put it this way. How many UK kids do you think there are who have never eaten an avocado? Wouldn't know what one was? Are their parents remiss in never having provided avocados for them? Of course not.
Not providing meat doesn't have to be a huge ethical debate. It's just one food. Some households don't have meat in them. It's not a big deal. 
My parents never provided marmite for me. *shrug* 

In practical terms, if a child wanted to eat meat and the parents were't meat eaters how to proceed, I would think it would very much depend on the child and on the parent. 
So let's pretend I'm a meat eater, my kid comes to me and says "mom, I want to be vegetarian" I'm fine with that because I know how to provide adequate nutrition to my kids without including meat. Plus it's not a foreign concept to me.
Now let's pretend I'm a parent who is not comfortable with my ability to provide adequate nutrition without meat. My kid comes to me and says "mom, I want to be vegetarian." I'm can respond by saying I don't know how to do that safely, you're still growing, and I don't want to risk it. Or I can suggest we research it together and talk to the doctor, or we can have all sorts of different options. Or I could fret about it and try to sneak meat or eggs in to dishes much like some parents sneak veggies in to dishes for their picky eaters... But none of those include forcing a child to eat something they don't want to eat.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Nettles said:


> What people feed their children should be nobody else's business as long as it's a nutritious diet and the child is healthy. Whether it's vegetarian, pescetarian, vegan or a meat diet.
> 
> I'm a pescetarian but if I ever have children, I wouldn't force that upon them. If they wanted meat and it was a healthy choice of meat, I would cook it for them. If they wanted vegan and it was a healthy choice of vegan, I would cook that for them too. If they wanted snack food, I would let them have it, within reason. What other people do though is their choice, their business and nobody else's.
> 
> ...


I did this for a few years, had a serious Coca-Cola & chocolate addiction through a lot of my teens, drinking 2 litre bottles some days, but it was just a passing phase, I can't stand the stuff now!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

simplysardonic said:


> I did this for a few years, had a serious Coca-Cola & chocolate addiction through a lot of my teens, drinking 2 litre bottles some days, but it was just a passing phase, I can't stand the stuff now!


Me too, I only managed to give up diet coke when I went vegan, I've replaced it with a small amount of orange juice made up with sparkling water.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I eat meat and I brought my children up eating meat. When they were small I did make a point of calling all meat by the name of the animal so they would grow up knowing what they were eating. Cow pie was always a favourite  They've never expressed an interest in becoming vegetarian and I do wonder if it's because they never had that shock moment of realising that meat is from an animal.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> I did this for a few years, had a serious Coca-Cola & chocolate addiction through a lot of my teens, drinking 2 litre bottles some days, but it was just a passing phase, I can't stand the stuff now!


I'm drinking about 4 litres of Diet Coke a day now which is just ridiculous :Sorry


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

There are 10 cubes of sugar in 500ml of coke!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Nettles said:


> I'm drinking about 4 litres of Diet Coke a day now which is just ridiculous :Sorry


:Jawdrop:Jawdrop


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> There are 10 cubes of sugar in 500ml of coke!


Coke is horrible.. I drink Diet Coke. 0g sugar in Diet Coke. Just the huge amount artificial sweeteners destroying my insides instead 


rottiepointerhouse said:


> :Jawdrop:Jawdrop


I know :Sorry:Sorry


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Nettles said:


> Coke is horrible.. I drink Diet Coke. 0g sugar in Diet Coke. Just the huge amount artificial sweeteners destroying my insides instead
> 
> I know :Sorry:Sorry


Is it the fizz you like or the caffeine? With me it was the fizz, I can drink still water all day but in the evening I just have to have a fizzy drink. Have you tried fizzy water and adding something to it like a small amount of fruit juice or some slices of fruit?


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Is it the fizz you like or the caffeine? With me it was the fizz, I can drink still water all day but in the evening I just have to have a fizzy drink. Have you tried fizzy water and adding something to it like a small amount of fruit juice or some slices of fruit?


It's a bit of everything I suppose.. I love the fizz, and don't really like the flavour of anything else. I suffer fizzy water and fruit juice now and again, but it's the migraines when I try to cut down on the caffeine that I really can't bare.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Nettles said:


> but it's the migraines when I try to cut down on the caffeine that I really can't bare.


That should tell you something!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Nettles said:


> It's a bit of everything I suppose.. I love the fizz, and don't really like the flavour of anything else. I suffer fizzy water and fruit juice now and again, but it's the migraines when I try to cut down on the caffeine that I really can't bare.


The caffeine would really concern me - I worked out you are getting about 500 mg of caffeine per day just on coke - the recommended safe limit per day is 400 mg for an adult (200 mg for pregnant women). Too much can cause palpitations, nervousness/feeling jumpy/anxiety, irritability and insomnia


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

@Nettles 
Have you tried maybe some cordial in sparkling water?

There are some really lovely fruit coridals around, you could even try making them very strong to satisfy your sweet cravings at first, then gradually reduce. I did this with sugar in tea & now I literally cannot drink tea if it's sugared these days!


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> That should tell you something!


Oh it does.. Drink more Diet Coke to kill the migraine  Just kidding  I have been trying to cut down the amount of Diet Coke I drink for years but the migraines and other withdrawal symptoms become so unbearable, I eventually go back to D.Coke just to stop them.



rottiepointerhouse said:


> The caffeine would really concern me - I worked out you are getting about 500 mg of caffeine per day just on coke - the recommended safe limit per day is 400 mg for an adult (200 mg for pregnant women). Too much can cause palpitations, nervousness/feeling jumpy/anxiety, irritability and insomnia


Checklist - yep yep yep and yep. I have all those symptoms and they get even worse when I'm trying to cut down too 



simplysardonic said:


> @Nettles
> Have you tried maybe some cordial in sparkling water?
> 
> There are some really lovely fruit coridals around, you could even try making them very strong to satisfy your sweet cravings at first, then gradually reduce. I did this with sugar in tea & now I literally cannot drink tea if it's sugared these days!


Funnily enough, sweet cravings isn't a problem for me. I don't really like any other sweet flavoured drinks. If I'm using cordial, it has to be bitter lime or a really weak orange.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Sorry for derailing your thread ouesi :Shy


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Nettles said:


> Oh it does.. Drink more Diet Coke to kill the migraine  Just kidding  I have been trying to cut down the amount of Diet Coke I drink for years but the migraines and other withdrawal symptoms become so unbearable, I eventually go back to D.Coke just to stop them.
> 
> Checklist - yep yep yep and yep. I have all those symptoms and they get even worse when I'm trying to cut down too
> 
> Funnily enough, sweet cravings isn't a problem for me. I don't really like any other sweet flavoured drinks. If I'm using cordial, it has to be bitter lime or a really weak orange.


How about trying this method

A good way to taper down your caffeine intake is by reducing it by about 10% every two weeks. That way, you will reduce your caffeine intake enough that eventually you will be caffeine-free, but it will take several months to get there. The advantage is that you shouldn't have very noticeable withdrawal symptoms while cutting back, and you can gradually replace your caffeinated foods and drinks for uncaffeinated or decaffeinated versions.

from https://www.verywell.com/what-to-expect-from-caffeine-withdrawal-21844


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Nettles said:


> I'm drinking about 4 litres of Diet Coke a day now which is just ridiculous :Sorry


OH did that for years, but the full of sugar stuff......YUK.........:Vomit

He got down to one can on a Sat and Sun, or so he said 

He's recently got into local speciality beers and I think his weekend cans have been replaced by bottles


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## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> The caffeine would really concern me - I worked out you are getting about 500 mg of caffeine per day just on coke - the recommended safe limit per day is 400 mg for an adult (200 mg for pregnant women). Too much can cause palpitations, nervousness/feeling jumpy/anxiety, irritability and insomnia


I once had acute caffeine overdose (idiot me age 17 confused about pro plus) it was horrendous. I had a full on panic attack, it felt like my head and my hands were going to fall off and I was genuinely afraid that they would. I was shaking and trembling like anything, then I was violently sick.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

KatieandOliver said:


> I once had acute caffeine overdose (idiot me age 17 confused about pro plus) it was horrendous. I had a full on panic attack, it felt like my head and my hands were going to fall off and I was genuinely afraid that they would. I was shaking and trembling like anything, then I was violently sick.


That sounds really scary - its powerful stuff.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

Lurcherlad said:


> Strange behaviour from a mum to a child of 10 IMO.


Not really - Mum working long hours and looking after several kids - don't see why she should be expected to cook a separate meal for one child or make the whole family go veggie because one 10-year-old wants to. We were raised knowing how to run a house from an early age - I was cooking several meals a week by the same age - so it's not like my friend didn't know how to cook. I think her mum just felt if she were serious about going veggie, she would be willing to cook every day and if she weren't, no one else had time to pander to her whim.


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## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> That sounds really scary - its powerful stuff.


It really is. People don't seem to realise that alcohol and caffeine are drugs and affect our bodies. Like stupid old me back then! I can imagine coming down off a high intake of caffeine will be awful, as it is a bit like coming off a drug like cocaine.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> How about trying this method
> 
> A good way to taper down your caffeine intake is by reducing it by about 10% every two weeks. That way, you will reduce your caffeine intake enough that eventually you will be caffeine-free, but it will take several months to get there. The advantage is that you shouldn't have very noticeable withdrawal symptoms while cutting back, and you can gradually replace your caffeinated foods and drinks for uncaffeinated or decaffeinated versions.
> 
> from https://www.verywell.com/what-to-expect-from-caffeine-withdrawal-21844


Thank you! 10% every two weeks seems really slow but more doable than my previous attempts. I've started already..  Took a bottle of iced water on our walk instead of Diet Coke. Drank it all and then almost peed myself in the car on the way home :Hilarious


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Not an equal analogy though.
> Again I'm going to take meat out of the equation for a minute to try and remove the emotional aspect.
> Let's go back to that mom who never has grapes in the house. She doesn't provide grapes for her children. That's not the same as forcing her children to eat grapes if they don't want them. Not making a certain food available - that's not nutritionally necessary, is not the same thing as forcing a child to eat a food they don't want to eat.
> I don't provide meat for my children, but I would absolutely never force them to eat something they didn't want to eat for either taste reasons or ethical ones.
> ...


It may not be an equal analogy but neither in my opinion is the fast food analogy that you've been using.
In some aspects though,the analogies still work, even if they are not perfect.



ouesi said:


> In practical terms, if a child wanted to eat meat and the parents were't meat eaters how to proceed, I would think it would very much depend on the child and on the parent.
> So let's pretend I'm a meat eater, my kid comes to me and says "mom, I want to be vegetarian" I'm fine with that because I know how to provide adequate nutrition to my kids without including meat. Plus it's not a foreign concept to me.
> Now let's pretend I'm a parent who is not comfortable with my ability to provide adequate nutrition without meat. My kid comes to me and says "mom, I want to be vegetarian." I'm can respond by saying I don't know how to do that safely, you're still growing, and I don't want to risk it. Or I can suggest we research it together and talk to the doctor, or we can have all sorts of different options. Or I could fret about it and try to sneak meat or eggs in to dishes much like some parents sneak veggies in to dishes for their picky eaters... But none of those include forcing a child to eat something they don't want to eat.


You are obviously way more focused on the nutrition angle. Whereas to me the choice is the important thing since the nutrition is a non issue (both diets can provide the nutrition needed). I came from a family of meat eaters, and although i eat meat now i did decide to become vegetarian as a teenager and i'm very glad i was allowed that freedom to choose. I do believe it goes both ways regardless of nutritional needs. It isn't JUST about nutrition, it's an ethical choice that i believe people have a right to make for themselves. However, i do think there is absolutely nothing wrong with bringing a child up vegetarian until they can make the choice for themselves... The thing is that by bringing them up vegetarian until that point they are more likely to want to stay vegetarian, which is a good thing, just as the "normal" culture of meat eating produces way more adult meat eaters. But it should still be their choice when they are old enough to make it.

Of course, as a parent, you don't HAVE to provide them with meat, just because they decided they are ok with eating meat. But i would at least hope they would be allowed the freedom to eat meat, that isn't provided by you.

But of course, none of this matters... this is just my opinion (and some of it maybe just devils advocate), and my opinion has no bearing on how you or anyone else should bring up their kids... to each their own... one thing we can agree on i think is that there's no need for laws against parental choices which don't cause harm to the children...


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2016)

porps said:


> You are obviously way more focused on the nutrition angle. Whereas to me the choice is the important thing since the nutrition is a non issue (both diets can provide the nutrition needed). I came from a family of meat eaters, and although i eat meat now i did decide to become vegetarian as a teenager and i'm very glad i was allowed that freedom to choose.


I focused on the nutrition aspect because to me, providing adequate nutrition is a parental responsibility. Providing "ethical" nutrition is not. (Not to mention, who decides what is ethical right?)

So your example brings up another issue. At what age should the child be allowed to choose?
It's not so simple as "kids should be given a choice" because the choices you give a 13 year old are going to be very different than the choices you give a 3 year old. A teenager who wants to go vegetarian and is capable of preparing their own meals? Have at it. A 3 year old who decides they're not going to eat anything but apples and ice cream? Not okay.



Nettles said:


> Sorry for derailing your thread ouesi :Shy


Not at all!
It does in fact bring up an interesting point (well, interesting to me) 

It's fascinating to me how much attention I have gotten as a parent who does not provide meat for my children. Not just on here, but in "real" life too. 
That OH and I are vegetarian, is not something I ever bring up, but it does come up sometimes. And sure enough, there's always someone who then asks if we cook meat for the kids, and when we say we don't, yup, the immediate shocked "how do you make sure they get enough nutrition?!" 
What's funny (odd) to me is that I have never seen a mom feeding their child crap being asked how they make sure their child gets enough nutrition, or anything remotely like the grilling moms like me get. No one is standing in the McDonald's line asking moms with toddlers how they're ensuring proper nutrition for their kids. No one asks the parent who has a fridge full of soda and sugary drinks how they make sure their children's teeth don't rot out or how they make sure their kids don't end up with type 2 diabetes. When a kid fed the typical American diet breaks a bone, or gets a cold, no one is asking if their diet is adequate. Yet these are things people ask of vegetarian parents. Ironic huh?


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

ouesi said:


> So your example brings up another issue. At what age should the child be allowed to choose?
> It's not so simple as "kids should be given a choice" because the choices you give a 13 year old are going to be very different than the choices you give a 3 year old. A teenager who wants to go vegetarian and is capable of preparing their own meals? Have at it. A 3 year old who decides they're not going to eat anything but apples and ice cream? Not okay.


Well people mature differently.. it shouldnt be about placing an age requirement or limit, it should be about individuals not legislation


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Not at all!
> It does in fact bring up an interesting point (well, interesting to me)
> 
> It's fascinating to me how much attention I have gotten as a parent who does not provide meat for my children. Not just on here, but in "real" life too.
> ...


It's even more ironic that your kids seem to be much more aware of sensible nutrition than most 13yr olds and from what you've said in the past, are two very healthy teenagers. How dare you allow your children to have a healthy diet.. and not provide meat for them either 
I suppose like anything, if it's different to the "norm" it's going to attract negative attention from people who believe they know how to raise your kids better than you.


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2016)

porps said:


> Well people mature differently.. it shouldnt be about placing an age requirement or limit, it should be about individuals not legislation


Exactly  
Which is why the original article pisses me off so much. It's about individuals, not legislation. 
This individual parent is more than capable of feeding my children a vegetarian or vegan diet without threatening their health, yet the proposed legislation wants to make me a criminal for doing so. 
Other parents seem incapable of providing any sort of adequate diet with or without meat included, that needs to be addressed with those individual parents.



Nettles said:


> It's even more ironic that your kids seem to be much more aware of sensible nutrition than most 13yr olds and from what you've said in the past, are two very healthy teenagers. How dare you allow your children to have a healthy diet.. and not provide meat for them either
> I suppose like anything, if it's different to the "norm" it's going to attract negative attention from people who believe they know how to raise your kids better than you.


This is going to sound like bragging and I don't mean it to, just an observation I made...
Last May one of our children was recognized in a nationwide intellectual giftedness search. It's basically the top 4% of the top 5% of 7th graders (12 to 13 year olds). There were about 2000 kids from all over the country recognized. 
You couldn't help but notice the huge predominance of Asian (as in Japanese, Vietnamese, Korean) and Indian families at the ceremony.
It makes you think - what do those cultures do that your average American family doesn't? Well, obviously, focus on education and learning is part of the culture, but also... And this just occurred to me during this conversation... These cultures tend to eat either no meat, or much less meat than what is in the standard American diet. 
I know, I know, correlation does not equal causation, but like I said, it does make you think....


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

ouesi said:


> This is going to sound like bragging and I don't mean it to, just an observation I made...
> Last May one of our children was recognized in a nationwide intellectual giftedness search. It's basically the top 4% of the top 5% of 7th graders (12 to 13 year olds). There were about 2000 kids from all over the country recognized.
> You couldn't help but notice the huge predominance of Asian (as in Japanese, Vietnamese, Korean) and Indian families at the ceremony.
> It makes you think - what do those cultures do that your average American family doesn't? Well, obviously, focus on education and learning is part of the culture, but also... And this just occurred to me during this conversation... These cultures tend to eat either no meat, or much less meat than what is in the standard American diet.
> I know, I know, correlation does not equal causation, but like I said, it does make you think....


You should be bragging! That's a fantastic achievement 
Actually.. has it not been proven that a healthy diet improves brain function? I think it would be fair to say *most* people (obviously not all!) who follow a vegetarian/vegan diet are far more aware of how to provide a healthy, well balanced meal than your average McDonalds regular. Your observation could well have some basis then as cultures who don't eat much meat will likely be more knowledgable on providing a healthy diet without meat, in turn improving the brain function of their children.
As a side note to that theory, I'm already a bit ditsy.. Can you imagine how stupid I'd be if I ate meat :Hilarious


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Nettles said:


> Your observation could well have some basis then as cultures who don't eat much meat will likely be more knowledgable on providing a healthy diet without meat, in turn improving the brain function of their children.


With or without meat you are looking at families who cook proper meals, eat as a a family, have strong structure to their family lives, take an interest in their children, value education, have high expectations, expect respectful behaviour. These children will be nurtured and their intellect recognised because it will be channelled in a direction beloved by the establishment.

I do believe vegetarians and vegans have, in general, taken more interest in their diet and therefore do have a greater knowledge of nutritional needs than many meat eaters but I'm not at all convinced a lack of meat in the diet creates genius.


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## Guest (Aug 16, 2016)

havoc said:


> With or without meat you are looking at families who cook proper meals, eat as a a family, have strong structure to their family lives, take an interest in their children, value education, have high expectations, expect respectful behaviour. These children will be nurtured and their intellect recognised because it will be channelled in a direction beloved by the establishment.


Wow okay  
So my kid isn't really smart, just recognized by the "establishment" LOL....

No worries. Good reminder to me to keep my mouth shut about personal stuff about my children


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Wow okay
> So my kid isn't really smart, just recognized by the "establishment" LOL....
> 
> No worries. Good reminder to me to keep my mouth shut about personal stuff about my children


Don't think that was what was meant tbh 

It can't all just be down to the fact a child does not eat meat


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Nettles said:


> I'm drinking about 4 litres of Diet Coke a day now which is just ridiculous :Sorry




I haven't drank a fizzy drink in over 10 years ( except say to make up a Pimms sometimes ).. I don't drink anything except Water.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

havoc said:


> With or without meat you are looking at families who cook proper meals, eat as a a family, have strong structure to their family lives, take an interest in their children, value education, have high expectations, expect respectful behaviour. These children will be nurtured and their intellect recognised because it will be channelled in a direction beloved by the establishment.
> 
> I do believe vegetarians and vegans have, in general, taken more interest in their diet and therefore do have a greater knowledge of nutritional needs than many meat eaters but I'm not at all convinced a lack of meat in the diet creates genius.


I'm not convinced of that either and wasn't suggesting a lack of meat creates a genius.. My point was that a healthy diet improves brain function. Non meat eaters tend to have a healthier diet therefore those children should in theory have better brain function.


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## Guest (Aug 16, 2016)

Lurcherlad said:


> It can't all just be down to the fact a child does not eat meat


Oh I agree it's not just because the kid doesn't eat meat. And essentially said so in my post. I just found it a strange choice of wording. It's really okay though, my mistake for sharing something personal.

Anyway, the point is, out of 2000 or so families, there were probably quite a few of them who don't provide meat to their children, and these are the kinds of families the Italian legislator would like to criminalize.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Hanwombat said:


> I haven't drank a fizzy drink in over 10 years ( except say to make up a Pimms sometimes ).. I don't drink anything except Water.


Last night was the first time in so long that I have actually drank water :Sorry Maybe the odd mouthful to take a tablet or something, but an actual drink of water is totally unheard of for me. I'm determined this time to cut down the Diet Coke and drink more water though


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

ouesi said:


> So my kid isn't really smart, just recognized by the "establishment"


No, your kid is very smart and because of upbringing this manifests itself in a way which is approved of and therefore recognised by the establishment. In a different household an equally smart kid could use that intelligence in a very different way.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Wow okay
> So my kid isn't really smart, just recognized by the "establishment" LOL....
> 
> No worries. Good reminder to me to keep my mouth shut about personal stuff about my children


I've been following this thread, and was just content to continue doing so.

But I wanted to say that's fantastic about your child, and you have every right to "brag".


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## AnimalzRock (Jul 2, 2014)

Do you think parents who put effort into feeding their children healthily also put more effort into helping them with their learning?


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## Guest (Aug 16, 2016)

AnimalzRock said:


> Do you think parents who put effort into feeding their children healthily also put more effort into helping them with their learning?


I think there are parents who parent and there are people who happen to have kids, and then there is something in between.
Children living with parents who parent are at an advantage, for sure 

It's the old nature/nurture thing all over again. A kid who has the innate ability will have that ability nurtured in the right environment, however that ability has to be there to begin with. 
We have two children, both are identified as gifted, but only one to the level this particular program recognizes. (As they are twins you can imagine how that presented some parenting challenges too...)


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

New book on raising kids on a whole foods plant based diet

http://www.forksoverknives.com/fokfamily/


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Also if anyone is interested there is a magazine called Vegan Food & Living (you can buy it in supermarkets etc) - the September issue has a whole feature on raising a vegan family such as where it was an easy decision to raise children as vegans, what is the most common question people ask about it, how do you handle negative reaction, is it easy, go to meals and snacks. Its right at the back of the magazine P120. I love this magazine as it has lots of recipes and articles/interviews.


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## The Wild Bunch (Jul 16, 2014)

My tuppence worth from personal experience. My sister in law is vegetarian. Her husband is omnivore. Both children were brought up vegetarian. The eldest has been fine on the vegetarian diet although is a fussy eater and doesn't actually eat vegetables per se. Annoyingly, when we are out all together as a family for a meal, she will shout and bawl about how disgusting our meat dish is. The youngest is also a very fussy eater and as a toddler was living on rice cakes and fromage frais. He was tiny and was classed as a 'failure to thrive' he was put on shakes to get calories into him and some meat on his bones. When he was around 18 months he snatched a sausage from my daughter's plate and wolfed it down! From that day he was fed an omnivore diet and is thriving! I can see the benefits of both sides but just wanted to share from a relatives point of view


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2016)

daisysmama said:


> My tuppence worth from personal experience. My sister in law is vegetarian. Her husband is omnivore. Both children were brought up vegetarian. The eldest has been fine on the vegetarian diet although is a fussy eater and doesn't actually eat vegetables per se. Annoyingly, when we are out all together as a family for a meal, she will shout and bawl about how disgusting our meat dish is. The youngest is also a very fussy eater and as a toddler was living on rice cakes and fromage frais. He was tiny and was classed as a 'failure to thrive' he was put on shakes to get calories into him and some meat on his bones. When he was around 18 months he snatched a sausage from my daughter's plate and wolfed it down! From that day he was fed an omnivore diet and is thriving! I can see the benefits of both sides but just wanted to share from a relatives point of view


Well you can go back and forth with anecdotes all day long though. 
At 18 months neither of my children had ever eaten meat, one was in the 95% for size, the other in the 85%. And this despite having been born 2 months premature and doctors having 'warned' us that it would take them at least 2 years to catch up to their peers in growth.

Failure to thrive is a potentially very difficult diagnosis that can be caused by innumerable factors and combinations of factors. It's not a simple case of feed the kid a sausage to magically "cure" FTT.


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## The Wild Bunch (Jul 16, 2014)

ouesi said:


> It's not a simple case of feed the kid a sausage to magically "cure" FTT.


I don't think I said anywhere that it was. What I was trying to say was that in cases where you are trying to bring up a child on a vegetarian diet where they refuse to eat vegetables and survive on yogurt and caramel snack a jacks then sometimes giving them a foodstuff that you disagree with is the only way forward. The elder child lives on chips and quorn chicken so isn't getting much nutritional value from that either as she doesn't like fruit and veg. I'm not saying that giving them meat would miraculously make them eat a better diet at all. The fact that they have never been encouraged to try anything different or have a clue where food comes from is down to the parents. My kids know where their food comes from and understand that a cow has to die to put their roast beef on the table we also grow veggies which has encouraged them to try veg that their friends at school have never had before. Most of the problems with fat kids and kids who are unruly at school etc is down to terrible parenting as has already been said across this thread


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Putting aside the ethics of farming animals for food & looking at it from from an ecological angle,a vegan diet is one of the best things an individual can do for the planet. If I knew then what I know now I would have gone vegan years ago & brought my children up on a vegan diet. Consuming animal products is one THE greatest threats facing our living world. It is quite simply unsustainable on this finite planet of ours.

George Monbiot has just done a very timely article on the subject of veganism. Its well worth a read 

*I've converted to veganism to reduce my impact on the living world.*
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/09/vegan-corrupt-food-system-meat-dairy

.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

I got sent a petition about this today. http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/120/837/974/?z00m=28259338&redirectID=2150107346


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

I have no idea whether generally a vegan diet is good for children or not (other than media reports of the few sad cases where children have become very ill and some died). I just wondered why, as is demonstrated in many of the supporting comments on this thread, vegans are so judgemental of the majority who do eat meat.



Nettles said:


> I'm not convinced of that either and wasn't suggesting a lack of meat creates a genius.. My point was that a healthy diet improves brain function. *Non meat eaters tend to have a healthier diet* therefore those children should in theory have better brain function.


Where is your evidence for such a comment? Not picking on you Nettles but this comment highlighted it to me, others in a similar vein making out if you are not vegan/vegetarian you live on McDonalds/junk fund


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> I have no idea whether generally a vegan diet is good for children or not (other than media reports of the few sad cases where children have become very ill and some died). I just wondered why, as is demonstrated in many of the supporting comments on this thread, vegans are so judgemental of the majority who do eat meat.
> 
> Where is your evidence for such a comment? Not picking on you Nettles but this comment highlighted it to me, others in a similar vein making out if you are not vegan/vegetarian you live on McDonalds/junk fund


You can't cherry pick a few words out of a conversation with someone else based on our OPINIONS and ask for evidence. It was quite obvious from the conversation we were discussing opinions. It is in MY opinion that people who do not consume as much meat tend to be more aware of how to provide a nutritious diet. Baring in mind, I have also stated in this very thread that MY OWN diet is appalling and not in the least bit healthy or nutritious.
I have no idea where you feel it has been demonstrated in this thread that vegans are so judgemental of the majority who do eat meat. I'm not even aware of how many vegans have commented on this thread, let alone seen anyone being judgemental on the matter. As you think my comment is in similar vein and shows me being judgemental of people who eat meat, then you'd be very mistaken. I am neither vegan nor vegetarian.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

DoodlesRule said:


> I have no idea whether generally a vegan diet is good for children or not (other than media reports of the few sad cases where children have become very ill and some died). I just wondered why, as is demonstrated in many of the supporting comments on this thread, vegans are so judgemental of the majority who do eat meat.
> 
> Where is your evidence for such a comment? Not picking on you Nettles but this comment highlighted it to me, others in a similar vein making out if you are not vegan/vegetarian you live on McDonalds/junk fund


Again, I'm not vegan or vegetarian, but none of the comments have offended me or come across as judgmental in my eyes. If someone is personally convinced that eating meat is morally wrong and/or has a severe negative effect on the planet, then I can see how it would be hard to express this to a meat-eater without the risk of sounding judgmental; however I'm sure it's not meant in this way. When you believe something passionately, it's natural to want to 'convert' others to what you believe, especially if you are convinced that it will be to their benefit. There's a difference between expressing your beliefs (and the reasons for them)in the hope that others will be convinced by what you have to say, and being judgmental and critical in a non-constructive manner.

Just my three penny's-worth


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Austrian study found best diet is omnivorous which should hardly be a shock looking at the human body. Even cows and deer eat meat on occasion. From what I remember, although could be wrong, vegans/vegetarians tended to have more mental issues whereas excess meat eaters tended to have heart problems etc. In general we do eat too much meat.

In my mind however feeding a child a vegan diet it isn't a crime so long as it is not going along with pushing intolerance towards others.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Nettles said:


> You can't cherry pick a few words out of a conversation with someone else based on our OPINIONS and ask for evidence. It was quite obvious from the conversation we were discussing opinions. It is in MY opinion that people who do not consume as much meat tend to be more aware of how to provide a nutritious diet. Baring in mind, I have also stated in this very thread that MY OWN diet is appalling and not in the least bit healthy or nutritious.
> I have no idea where you feel it has been demonstrated in this thread that vegans are so judgemental of the majority who do eat meat. I'm not even aware of how many vegans have commented on this thread, let alone seen anyone being judgemental on the matter. As you think my comment is in similar vein and shows me being judgemental of people who eat meat, then you'd be very mistaken. I am neither vegan nor vegetarian.


How is quoting your actual words cherry picking! Put another way then, how have you formed the opinion that non-meat eaters are more aware of diet/nutrition. In my own family my mother was a nurse and studied nutrition as part of that so we all had a balanced diet & that has carried through the extended family and there isn't a single one of us overweight. My son is a chef so my grandson also has a balanced/healthy diet. The one vegetarian I know personally has an absolutely appalling diet which is beginning to affect her health as she gets older. However I fully understand that is simply a snapshot of my experience and I would certainly not claim that meat eaters are more or less aware of nutrition because of such a small sample of people.

If you read back through the thread there are lots of comments being negative about meat eaters. I am not offended, or even bothered to be honest, just marginally interesting why the need to justify a decision of being vegan by denigrating those who choose not to it certainly does not make anyone either a better or worse parent


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## KATZ1355 (May 30, 2016)

Animallover26 said:


> A crime, no.
> However I do think that you should allow the child to decide for themselves if they want to eat meat or not.


How old does a child have to be to decide for themselves what they should eat?


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## KATZ1355 (May 30, 2016)

DoodlesRule said:


> How is quoting your actual words cherry picking! Put another way then, how have you formed the opinion that non-meat eaters are more aware of diet/nutrition. In my own family my mother was a nurse and studied nutrition as part of that so we all had a balanced diet & that has carried through the extended family and there isn't a single one of us overweight. My son is a chef so my grandson also has a balanced/healthy diet. The one vegetarian I know personally has an absolutely appalling diet which is beginning to affect her health as she gets older. However I fully understand that is simply a snapshot of my experience and I would certainly not claim that meat eaters are more or less aware of nutrition because of such a small sample of people.
> 
> If you read back through the thread there are lots of comments being negative about meat eaters. I am not offended, or even bothered to be honest, just marginally interesting why the need to justify a decision of being vegan by denigrating those who choose not to it certainly does not make anyone either a better or worse parent


The media is responsible for quite a lot of 'food scares' - cancer this cancer that etc.!!!!!!!!


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

KATZ1355 said:


> How old does a child have to be to decide for themselves what they should eat?


Can not put an age on this, depends on the child.


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## KATZ1355 (May 30, 2016)

Animallover26 said:


> Can not put an age on this, depends on the child.


But when you have a child, you feed it what you eat right - when child grows older maybe starts to think oh 'meat is murder' etc. quoting Morissey!


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

KATZ1355 said:


> But when you have a child, you feed it what you eat right - when child grows older maybe starts to think oh 'meat is murder' etc. quoting Morissey!


I don't have children but I hope that if I did I wouldn't mind throwing a few sausages in the oven for example if I knew the child hated the fish or the vegie item I was having, or if the child wanted to be 100% vegie I wouldn't mind cooking a veg burger for example or rather then use meat mince I would use soy mince instead.


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2016)

DoodlesRule said:


> I just wondered why, as is demonstrated in many of the supporting comments on this thread, vegans are so judgemental of the majority who do eat meat.


How on earth have you taken from this thread that vegans are judgemental?

In 13 years of being a parent, I get asked on a regular basis - easily once a month, sometimes more - how I manage to provide proper nutrition for my children. I'm not even a vegan, I'm vegetarian, yet still people find it perfectly acceptable to ask me how I manage to feed them properly.

I have never once, seen or heard of a parent who is not vegetarian have their choice questioned. Never.

The fact that the original article targets vegans specifically and not parents who simply fail to provide adequate nutrition is pretty telling to me....


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> How is quoting your actual words cherry picking! Put another way then, how have you formed the opinion that non-meat eaters are more aware of diet/nutrition. In my own family my mother was a nurse and studied nutrition as part of that so we all had a balanced diet & that has carried through the extended family and there isn't a single one of us overweight. My son is a chef so my grandson also has a balanced/healthy diet. The one vegetarian I know personally has an absolutely appalling diet which is beginning to affect her health as she gets older. However I fully understand that is simply a snapshot of my experience and I would certainly not claim that meat eaters are more or less aware of nutrition because of such a small sample of people.
> 
> If you read back through the thread there are lots of comments being negative about meat eaters. I am not offended, or even bothered to be honest, just marginally interesting why the need to justify a decision of being vegan by denigrating those who choose not to it certainly does not make anyone either a better or worse parent


You are picking a sentence in a conversation discussing opinions and asking for facts to support it. IN MY OPINION (just so you're clear this is not evidence based) I believe that to be cherry picking to try to prove your point. I have formed my own opinions based on anecdotal evidence.. as have you. I was in a discussion involving opinions, I gave mine, based on my own anecdotal evidence. Nothing more, nothing less.
I have read through the thread and I have not seen negative comments towards anyone.. although originally what you actually stated was..


DoodlesRule said:


> I just wondered why, as is demonstrated in many of the supporting comments on this thread, vegans are so judgemental of the majority who do eat meat.


I have not found vegans to be judgemental on this thread as I have no idea who is vegan and who isn't. I have no opinion on whether a vegan needs to justify their choices or not. I have no opinion on whether it makes them a better parent or not. I am neither vegan nor a parent and have not seen anyone claim such things on this thread.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

ouesi said:


> I have never once, seen or heard of a parent who is not vegetarian have their choice questioned. Never.


I have heard other people complain that their decision to eat meat has been criticised by vegans or vegetarians. I have also been criticised myself for eating meat by vegetarians and their children (one couple's kids became very unpopular in our area for their obnoxious behaviour in criticising everyone they met for their eating choices!)

I don't think vegans or vegetarians are any more likely to be judgemental than anyone else though. If you are the kind of person who enjoys criticising other people and meddling with their lives, you are going to do that whatever your dietary preferences/beliefs. I do find it mildly irritating to be lectured by an eight-year-old child on what I should and should not be eating, based on a very dodgy understanding of UK farming, but in my view, that's a parenting fault, not a dietary one!


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

I hate people passing comment on the food I choose to eat 

At a staff Christmas dinner once, I ordered mussels and the girl sitting opposite me caused a scene and demanded someone swap seats with her because she couldn't sit opposite someone eating such disgusting food. She started pretending to gag and flapping her arms about and making inappropriate comments about what my food looked like. Of course everyone had to come and gawk at what I was about to eat. I was absolutely mortified. I don't eat meat but hadn't caused a fuss about the blue steak she'd ordered with the blood running across her plate!
I've also had people wave meat in my face as if I'm afraid of it 
I cook meat for my OH, my family and my dog. I'm not scared of it. I just choose not to eat it


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

Nettles said:


> I hate people passing comment on the food I choose to eat
> 
> At a staff Christmas dinner once, I ordered mussels and the girl sitting opposite me caused a scene and demanded someone swap seats with her because she couldn't sit opposite someone eating such disgusting food. She started pretending to gag and flapping her arms about and making inappropriate comments about what my food looked like. Of course everyone had to come and gawk at what I was about to eat. I was absolutely mortified. I don't eat meat but *hadn't caused a fuss about the blue steak she'd ordered with the blood running across her plate!*
> I've also had people wave meat in my face as if I'm afraid of it
> I cook meat for my OH, my family and my dog. I'm not scared of it. I just choose not to eat it


Maybe you should have done!

I went out for lunch once with two friends. They ordered Pork, I ordered Rabbit Pie. When they heard what I was ordering, they both created a huge fuss about how horrible, mean & cruel I was to eat a poor little bunny... :Grumpy I just waited until their plates arrived, looked at them and said "Poor little piggies". Neither of them were able to eat their meal after that.  At least I eat meat knowing what I am eating and checking where it has come from, instead of trying to convince myself that pork has absolutely nothing to do with pigs and beef has nothing to do with cows...


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

DoodlesRule said:


> I have no idea whether generally a vegan diet is good for children or not (other than media reports of the few sad cases where children have become very ill and some died). I just wondered why, as is demonstrated in many of the supporting comments on this thread, vegans are so judgemental of the majority who do eat meat.
> 
> Where is your evidence for such a comment? Not picking on you Nettles but this comment highlighted it to me, others in a similar vein making out if you are not vegan/vegetarian you live on McDonalds/junk fund


As a dairy free pescatarian, I have barely eaten a vegetable all week! 

Veggie, vegan, pesci does not automatically mean a healthy diet! 

Just as omnivore doesn't automatically mean junk! 

For what it's worth, I never ask people why they eat meat but I am regularly questioned why I don't!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Goblin said:


> Austrian study found best diet is omnivorous which should hardly be a shock looking at the human body. Even cows and deer eat meat on occasion. From what I remember, although could be wrong, vegans/vegetarians tended to have more mental issues whereas excess meat eaters tended to have heart problems etc. In general we do eat too much meat.
> 
> In my mind however feeding a child a vegan diet it isn't a crime so long as it is not going along with pushing intolerance towards others.


Vegan, vegetarian, pesco-vegetarian and omnivore diets were studied and compared in Belgium (Clarys et al 2014). Vegans had the healthiest weight among all groups and received the highest score on the healthy eating scale. The higher the score the healthier the diet and the lower the risk of a number of chronic and lifestyle related diseases. The fat intake of the vegan group was better (more unsaturated healthy fats) than in the other groups and they were also found to consume more fibre and iron. Calcium intake was lower that in the other dietary patterns but still above the IK recommended dose. Vegan protein intake was more than sufficient whilst in the meat eaters it reached almost twice the recommended intake levels which has been shown to have negative health effects.

Davey et al (2003) analysed food intakes of British vegans, vegetarians and meat-eaters. They found vegans had the lowest intake of saturated fats and the highest intakes of fibre, vitamin B1, folate, vitamin C, vitamin E, magnesium and iron. The only mineral that was slightly below the recommended intake in some vegans was calcium but overall vegans showed the adequate intakes of all essential nutrients and had the healthiest fat intake profile.

Orlich et al (2014) looked at vegetarian and non vegetarian diets more closely to assess the main differences. They found that vegans eat the most fruit, vegetables, soya and soya products, grains, pulses, nuts and seeds and the least sweets, fizzy drinks, fried potatoes, refined cereals and added fats. Overall vegetarian diets especially vegan ones had much healthier patterns than omnivorous diets reflecting that plant-based diets are not based simply on the exclusion of animal products but lead to a higher quality diet.

Craig (2010) reviewed the effects of vegan diets on health and found they contain less saturated fat and cholesterol and more fibre. As a result the vegans tend to be slimmer, have lower blood cholesterol and blood pressure which reduces their risk of heart disease. Vegan diets also have a cancer protective effect as they contain considerably higher intakes of foods and nutrients protective against cancer.

Le and Sabate (2014) focused specifically on the health of North American vegans and found that compared to vegetarian diets including dairy and eggs the vegan diets seem to offer greater protection from obesity, hypertension, type 2 diabetes and heart disease related mortality.

An exhaustive review of the literature published between 1950 and 2013 on chronic diet-related diseases such as obesity, diabetes, heart disease, kidney and liver disorders and cancers confirmed that plant food groups especially unrefined plant-based foods are more protective than animal food groups (Fardet and Boirie 2014). Whilst plant-based diets contribute to good health, the authors warned that diets based on animal foods seriously increase the risk of chronic diseases.

Tusco et al (2013) assert that plant-based diets are cost effective, low-risk interventions that can reduce body weight, blood pressure, cholesterol levels, and improve blood sugar control. They may also reduce the number of medications needed to treat chronic diseases and lower ischemic heart disease mortality rates.

Taken from this free download which I would urge anyone interested in health promotion to have a read of and pass on to anyone it might help or interest

http://www.vivahealth.org.uk/sites/default/files/The-Incredible-Vegan-Health-Report.pdf


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> They found that vegans eat the most fruit, vegetables, soya and soya products, grains, pulses, nuts and seeds and* the least sweets, fizzy drinks, fried potatoes, refined cereals and added fats*. Overall vegetarian diets especially vegan ones had much healthier patterns than omnivorous diets reflecting that plant-based diets are not based simply on the exclusion of animal products but lead to a higher quality diet.


That's interesting because none of these things would be against the 'rules' for a vegetarian diet (unless the fat is animal fat).

It doesn't surprise me that research shows vegetarians and vegans tend to have a healthier diet than meat eaters. People who don't care what they eat are not going to make the effort to exclude any type of food (e.g. [email protected]) from their diet, so are therefore unlikely to be found in the vegetarian/vegan group. It doesn't necessarily show that one particular diet is healthier than another, just that those who follow it are more likely to be those who have a concern to eat healthily.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

CuddleMonster said:


> That's interesting because none of these things would be against the 'rules' for a vegetarian diet (unless the fat is animal fat).
> 
> It doesn't surprise me that research shows vegetarians and vegans tend to have a healthier diet than meat eaters. People who don't care what they eat are not going to make the effort to exclude any type of food (e.g. [email protected]) from their diet, so are therefore unlikely to be found in the vegetarian/vegan group. It doesn't necessarily show that one particular diet is healthier than another, just that those who follow it are more likely to be those who have a concern to eat healthily.


The last 3 quotes are related to the better health findings as is the link which has masses of evidence for all sorts of chronic illnesses.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> The last 3 quotes are related to the better health findings as is the link which has masses of evidence for all sorts of chronic illnesses.


Yes, I understand that. My point is that every veggie I have known has a keen interest in nutrition. Not every meat eater does. So if you compare a vegetarian with a meat eater who stuffs on junk food every day, the veggie is obviously going to be healthier. I just wonder if the vegetarian is also healthier than the one who eats meat maybe once a week. And what kind of meat-eaters these studies are comparing vegetarians/vegans with.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0088278

"our results showed that a vegetarian diet is associated with poorer health (higher incidences of cancer, allergies, and mental health disorders), a higher need for health care, and poorer quality of life"

There must be more that comes to this conclusion. It's so easy to find studies that back up any claim


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

A lot depends on who you use for the study. Most vegetarians I know are extremely fit and healthy and full of energy so I expect if they took part in a study like this, they would show that vegetarian diets were good for you. But I had two veggie friends who were really pale, spotty & unfit, zero energy and constantly going down with bugs and generally looking really poorly - too many like that in the study and vegetarian diets would look like they were really bad for you! Likewise, meat eaters - pick meat eaters who eat lean meat once or twice a week and whose diet is otherwise healthy and meat-eating looks great. Pick those who have a fry up for breakfast, pork pie for lunch and beef burgers for dinner with never a vegetable in sight and meat-eating is found to be very bad for you!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

CuddleMonster said:


> Yes, I understand that. My point is that every veggie I have known has a keen interest in nutrition. Not every meat eater does. So if you compare a vegetarian with a meat eater who stuffs on junk food every day, the veggie is obviously going to be healthier. I just wonder if the vegetarian is also healthier than the one who eats meat maybe once a week. And what kind of meat-eaters these studies are comparing vegetarians/vegans with.


Quite I'm not disputing that the average vegetarian/vegan is likely healthier than the average meat eater nor am I disputing that some vegetarians and vegans eat junk food and don't have a very healthy diet. That is part of the reason there is a huge group of people now who don't consume animal products but don't call themselves vegans and prefer the term whole food plant based diets. Junk food of any description doesn't feature.



rona said:


> http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0088278
> 
> "our results showed that a vegetarian diet is associated with poorer health (higher incidences of cancer, allergies, and mental health disorders), a higher need for health care, and poorer quality of life"
> 
> There must be more that comes to this conclusion. It's so easy to find studies that back up any claim


Some extracts from Dr Gregers book How Not to Die (every claim he makes is referenced to the relevant studies)

In 2012 the results of two major Harvard University studies were published. The first known as the Nurses Health Study began following the diets of about 120,000 women aged 30 - 55 starting back in the 1976. The second the Health Professionals Follow Up Study followed about 50,000 men aged 40 - 75. Every 4 years researchers checked in with study participants to keep track of their diets. By 2008 a total of about 24,000 subjects had died including approx 6,000 from heart disease and 9,000 from cancer. After results were analysed the researchers found that consumption of both processed and unprocessed red meat was associated with an increased risk of dying from cancer and heart disease and shortened lifespan overall. They reached this conclusion after factoring in weight, alcohol consumption, exercise, smoking, family history and calorie intake.

The largest study of diet and health in history is the NIH-AARP study cosponsored by the National Institute of Health and the American Association of Retired Persons. Over the course of a decade researchers followed 545,000 men and women aged 50 -71 in the largest study of meat and mortality ever conducted. The scientists came to the same conclusions at the Harvard researchers. Meat consumption was associated with increased risk of dying from cancer, dying form heart disease and dying prematurely in general.

There has been long standing concern about the possibility that wart causing chicken cancer viruses are being transmitted to the general population through the handling of fresh or frozen chicken. These viruses are known to cause cancer in the birds but their role in human cancers is unknown. This concern arises out of studies that show people who work in poultry slaughtering and processing plants have increased risk of dying form certain cancers. The most recent study of 30,0000 poultry workers was designed to test whether exposure to poultry cancer causing viruses that widely occurs occupationally in poultry workers not to mention the general population may be associated with increased risks of death from liver and pancreatic cancers. The study found those who slaughter chickens have about 9 times the odds of both pancreatic and liver cancer (to put this in context the most carefully studied risk factor for pancreatic cancer is cigarette smoking but even if you smoked for 50 years you would only have doubled your odds of getting pancreatic cancer). What about people who eat chicken? the largest study ever to address this question is the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition (EPIC study) which followed 477,000 people for about a decade. They found a 72% increased risk of pancreatic cancer for every 50 grams of chicken consumed daily (about quarter of a chicken breast). A similar result was found for lymphomas and leukaemias which the researchers thought might be connected to the growth promoting drugs fed to chickens and turkeys but also thought the cancer causing viruses found in poultry could be playing a role.

He quotes similar studies in every chapter dealing with all the leading causes of chronic illness and death not to mention infections such as e.coli, salmonella, c.difficile, yersinia (pork). The world health organisation have classified processed meat as a Grade 1 Carcinogen.



CuddleMonster said:


> A lot depends on who you use for the study. Most vegetarians I know are extremely fit and healthy and full of energy so I expect if they took part in a study like this, they would show that vegetarian diets were good for you. But I had two veggie friends who were really pale, spotty & unfit, zero energy and constantly going down with bugs and generally looking really poorly - too many like that in the study and vegetarian diets would look like they were really bad for you! Likewise, meat eaters - pick meat eaters who eat lean meat once or twice a week and whose diet is otherwise healthy and meat-eating looks great. Pick those who have a fry up for breakfast, pork pie for lunch and beef burgers for dinner with never a vegetable in sight and meat-eating is found to be very bad for you!


Yes I know vegetarians who get by on egg and chips or dish up meals for their families and just leave the meat off their plates. The studies Dr Greger refers to in his book factor in other lifestyle differences.

Anyhow I'm not trying to convince anyone. For those who are happy eating meat carry on but for anyone suffering chronic ill health there is nothing to lose from trying it. No side effects unlike with most medications and fast improvements to blood pressure and cholesterol levels. My OH was about to be marched to the GP by me for a blood pressure of 150/100 which would almost certainly have resulted in medication but within weeks of going plant based it was down to below 120/70. My knees which have been swollen and painful for a couple of years particularly so in recent months when they were spoiling my enjoyment of dog walking and bringing me to tears have reverted to normal, I can squat, run up and down stairs and walk the dogs for hours with no adverse reactions. I was reading on a forum today about someone who was on 3 types of blood pressure medication and was hospitalised after hitting a high of 250/135 who after going plant based is now off all medication and has a blood pressure of 118/68.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

CuddleMonster said:


> That's interesting because none of these things would be against the 'rules' for a vegetarian diet (unless the fat is animal fat).
> 
> It doesn't surprise me that research shows vegetarians and vegans tend to have a healthier diet than meat eaters. People who don't care what they eat are not going to make the effort to exclude any type of food (e.g. [email protected]) from their diet, so are therefore unlikely to be found in the vegetarian/vegan group. It doesn't necessarily show that one particular diet is healthier than another, just that those who follow it are more likely to be those who have a concern to eat healthily.


Since giving up dairy, cakes, biscuits, pizza, icecream, cream, chocolate, scones, Yorkshire puddings, crisps, coleslaw, potato salad have gone from my diet as they contain milk. I also eat very little cheese now (vegan alternatives don't really cut it). Processed foods too have gone down dramatically (even veggie replacements for meat) for the same reason.

I could probably find dairy free replacements, or make my own but I figure I don't need them and can't really be arsed! 

So, on that basis I guess my diet is healthier in that way.


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## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Quite I'm not disputing that the average vegetarian/vegan is likely healthier than the average meat eater nor am I disputing that some vegetarians and vegans eat junk food and don't have a very healthy diet. That is part of the reason there is a huge group of people now who don't consume animal products but don't call themselves vegans and prefer the term whole food plant based diets. Junk food of any description doesn't feature.
> 
> Some extracts from Dr Gregers book How Not to Die (every claim he makes is referenced to the relevant studies)
> 
> ...


It is really great that becoming vegan has made such a positive impact on your life. I suppose it really depends how you do it - a friend of mine when we were teenagers decided to become vegan 'for a year' (I never received understood this) and pretty much just ate cakes and biscuits from the free from section and looked very ill. 
I did try the diet suggested for my blood type, which recommends almost a vegan diet. I was rather dubious, as there is 0 evidence to back it up, but it's not an unhealthy diet so can't harm. I am quite sensitive to tastes and textures, which even further limits my diet, but I found when I tried being nearly vegan/vegetarian (eating fish and chicken infrequently, but no dairy) I felt very drained, ill, and had frequent migraines and headaches. 
I wonder could that have been withdrawal symptoms, and perhaps had I carried on (after 3 weeks I started eating more meat again and some dairy, although considerably less than before the diet) they would have disappeared and I might have felt some benefits?


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2016)

Lurcherlad said:


> Since giving up dairy, cakes, biscuits, pizza, icecream, cream, chocolate, scones, Yorkshire puddings, crisps, coleslaw, potato salad have gone from my diet as they contain milk. I also eat very little cheese now (vegan alternatives don't really cut it). Processed foods too have gone down dramatically (even veggie replacements for meat) for the same reason.
> 
> I could probably find dairy free replacements, or make my own but I figure I don't need them and can't really be arsed!
> 
> So, on that basis I guess my diet is healthier in that way.


Honestly I think in some ways dairy is harder on our systems than meat. I can see humans having evolved to eat meat, but dairy is just weird. 
*she says as she digs in to some yummy coffee ice cream*

Though I have discovered cashew milk ice cream and it is glorious!!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

KatieandOliver said:


> It is really great that becoming vegan has made such a positive impact on your life. I suppose it really depends how you do it - a friend of mine when we were teenagers decided to become vegan 'for a year' (I never received understood this) and pretty much just ate cakes and biscuits from the free from section and looked very ill.
> I did try the diet suggested for my blood type, which recommends almost a vegan diet. I was rather dubious, as there is 0 evidence to back it up, but it's not an unhealthy diet so can't harm. I am quite sensitive to tastes and textures, which even further limits my diet, but I found when I tried being nearly vegan/vegetarian (eating fish and chicken infrequently, but no dairy) I felt very drained, ill, and had frequent migraines and headaches.
> I wonder could that have been withdrawal symptoms, and perhaps had I carried on (after 3 weeks I started eating more meat again and some dairy, although considerably less than before the diet) they would have disappeared and I might have felt some benefits?


Yes it does depend on how you do it. We tried years ago and failed miserably. We'd been vegetarian for about 6 years and decided to go vegan but that was before the internet and there were not many books around about it so we felt unsupported and only lasted 6 weeks when we got ill and gave up. This time I spent a lot of time researching first, there are so many great websites out there and magazines and I've got so many cook books that we are spoilt for choice for things to eat. At first I did buy vegan yoghurts but we never got round to eating them as we eat so much fruit now. My OH does have vegan cheese in his sandwiches some days (with beetroot or tomato) or almond butter or banana. We eat lots of beans/pulses - at least one sometimes two servings a day with lots of vegetables and/or salad and rice/pasta/quinoa/potatoes. I don't know if the headaches you experienced would have gone if you had stuck with it, if you were feeling ill and drained still after 3 weeks then it doesn't sound like it suited you or not in the form you were doing it anyway. Both me and OH have experienced far less headaches and he used to have joint aches that moved around to different joints which has gone too along with what we thought was hay fever so he is feeling much fitter and has lost weight too. I haven't lost weight yet but I hope eventually I will lose half a stone.


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## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes it does depend on how you do it. We tried years ago and failed miserably. We'd been vegetarian for about 6 years and decided to go vegan but that was before the internet and there were not many books around about it so we felt unsupported and only lasted 6 weeks when we got ill and gave up. This time I spent a lot of time researching first, there are so many great websites out there and magazines and I've got so many cook books that we are spoilt for choice for things to eat. At first I did buy vegan yoghurts but we never got round to eating them as we eat so much fruit now. My OH does have vegan cheese in his sandwiches some days (with beetroot or tomato) or almond butter or banana. We eat lots of beans/pulses - at least one sometimes two servings a day with lots of vegetables and/or salad and rice/pasta/quinoa/potatoes. I don't know if the headaches you experienced would have gone if you had stuck with it, if you were feeling ill and drained still after 3 weeks then it doesn't sound like it suited you or not in the form you were doing it anyway. Both me and OH have experienced far less headaches and he used to have joint aches that moved around to different joints which has gone too along with what we thought was hay fever so he is feeling much fitter and has lost weight too. I haven't lost weight yet but I hope eventually I will lose half a stone.


Interesting you mention pasta and potato, according to my blood type diet I couldn't eat these, or citrus fruits, and not sweet potato either (and no cabbage, which I love), so along with my taste/texture limits there was just so little I could eat! Trying again with a more regular vegetarian/vegan diet might actually work out better. Or possibly pescetarian. Do you eat wheat/gluten?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

KatieandOliver said:


> Interesting you mention pasta and potato, according to my blood type diet I couldn't eat these, or citrus fruits, and not sweet potato either (and no cabbage, which I love), so along with my taste/texture limits there was just so little I could eat! Trying again with a more regular vegetarian/vegan diet might actually work out better. Or possibly pescetarian. Do you eat wheat/gluten?


Yes I eat anything that isn't from an animal but try to avoid processed foods and added oils.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I must say that I question the validity of a study on the subject started in 1976 as my FIL tried to go vegan in the 80s, he was already vegetarian and had been most of his life. He knew about good nutrition and had passed the difficult task of actually sourcing good food for a vegetarian at that time.

He found it impossible to sustain a healthy diet as a Vegan, not because he didn't try but without the internet as we know it today and such a small interest worldwide in veganism (vegetarianism was still fairly unusual), he couldn't sustain it and reverted back to being a vegetarian. 

What I'd like to know is why my mothers generation, those born just after WW1, lived through WW2 and rationing for the first part of their lives but eating copious amounts of meat, mainly chicken and pig, fat from cows was used to cook, also full cows milk was drunk and spread on bread as butter.

The first generation of poor to have access to meat often in their diets and it was seen as the main part of every meal. Why are they the generation that's lived so long?
Apparently they don't expect the next generation to live as long even with better health care and with huge parts of the population either vegetarian or vegan

DNA markers are standing a lot of these studies on their heads


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Honestly I think in some ways dairy is harder on our systems than meat. I can see humans having evolved to eat meat, but dairy is just weird.
> *she says as she digs in to some yummy coffee ice cream*
> 
> Though I have discovered cashew milk ice cream and it is glorious!!


Dairy also tends to have a bigger impact on the planet/animal welfare  I've found it fairly easy to get eggs and meat that I am happy with, dairy is much harder unless you know someone who has a house cow! Cashew milk ice cream...hmmm, I might have to 'research' that!


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I saw a recipe for icecream on TV the other day:

Chopped frozen banana or other fruit
Custard
Honey
Vanilla extract

Whiz in a food processor.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

rona said:


> I must say that I question the validity of a study on the subject started in 1976 as my FIL tried to go vegan in the 80s, he was already vegetarian and had been most of his life. He knew about good nutrition and had passed the difficult task of actually sourcing good food for a vegetarian at that time.
> 
> He found it impossible to sustain a healthy diet as a Vegan, not because he didn't try but without the internet as we know it today and such a small interest worldwide in veganism (vegetarianism was still fairly unusual), he couldn't sustain it and reverted back to being a vegetarian.
> 
> ...


I suppose if you want to do a long term study you have to start at some point and finish at some point and the early stuff is always going to be a bit out of date by the end of it. Your FIL's experience sounds very similar to ours when we tried to go vegan in the 80's, we just didn't know how to do it healthily although to be honest the only thing we are using now that wasn't around then are the nicer milks - I hate soya milk so the variety available now such as rice, oat and almond has made a big difference but of course the internet and the available information/support sites is the biggest difference.

I don't know about your mother but in my mother's family (born in the 30's and 40's) they have a fairly classic downturn in health as they became wealthier and started to eat more meat/dairy and of course processed foods from the late 70's. Growing up although they ate meat and dairy it was by no means the bulk of their diets as being a big family with a low income they could not have afforded it. My Mum is one of 6, only one of whom I would say is in good health now, the others have an array of chronic health problems with my Mum the worse having very high difficult to control blood pressure, diabetes, multiple myeloma, only one kidney (other removed due to cancer), a recent skin cancer removed, previous kidney stones, previous gall stones - gall bladder removed and I could go on. Their husbands even worse, 5 died early of a variety of cancers (my Dad aged 46 colon cancer, another aged 57 of oesophageal cancer, another in his 60's of pancreatic cancer and another aged 60 of a heart attack) many of their children also suffer with heart problems being on statins and high blood pressure medications and having stents put in at even earlier ages than their parents. My genes must be terrible as both my parents had cancer at relatively young ages and my Dad's mum also died of cancer aged 47 (lung and liver) with his Dad dying of heart disease. I do believe that how we live our lives and what we eat plays a far greater role in determining our health than our genes though.

I don't know if you have heard of Caldwell Esselstyn Jr. he was a surgeon and clinician at the Cleveland Clinic in the US - he carried out a 20 year study of men and women with advanced coronary disease. Within months of following his plant based oil free diet their angina symptoms eased, their cholesterol levels dropped significantly and they experienced marked improvements in the blood flow to their hearts remaining symptom free 20 years later. In his book he shares photographs of their angiograms that shows the reversal of the disease. This is his website which has some great videos if anyone is interested

http://www.dresselstyn.com/site/video-2/

and this is a vegan cardiologist who also competes in iron man competitions (and has 2 lovely greyhounds)

http://www.forksoverknives.com/heather-shenkman-vegan-cardiologist/


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Lurcherlad said:


> I saw a recipe for icecream on TV the other day:
> 
> Chopped frozen banana or other fruit
> Custard
> ...


Even simpler (and totally vegan-friendly and healthy) - take some bananas that are starting to go overripe/a little mushy, slice them up and freeze in a single layer on greaseproof paper. Defrost a little, then whizz in a food processor. Add some cocoa powder if you like  My friend introduced me to this as she has cut out all processed sugars and sweetners from her diet, and is trying to limit fats too. It tastes really yummy and creamy - you wouldn't know it contains no dairy!  (Also great for 'fooling' the kids into eating something healthy for pudding!)


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## Guest (Aug 21, 2016)

NaomiM said:


> Even simpler (and totally vegan-friendly and healthy) - take some bananas that are starting to go overripe/a little mushy, slice them up and freeze in a single layer on greaseproof paper. Defrost a little, then whizz in a food processor. Add some cocoa powder if you like  My friend introduced me to this as she has cut out all processed sugars and sweetners from her diet, and is trying to limit fats too. It tastes really yummy and creamy - you wouldn't know it contains no dairy!  (Also great for 'fooling' the kids into eating something healthy for pudding!)


We always have frozen bananas in the freezer. We buy the overripe ones at the store for next to nothing, bring 'em home, slice 'em up, and just put them in a freezer bag. Great for "ice cream" but also smoothies or just a quick snack. My daughter will just grab 2 or 3 frozen banana pieces to munch on.

For "ice cream" you can also add a little vanilla and cinnamon


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Quick & easy vegan cherry/chocolate ice cream


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Growing up although they ate meat and dairy it was by no means the bulk of their diets





rottiepointerhouse said:


> being a big family with a low income they could not have afforded it.


My mother was from a family of 10 that were farmers and therefore had a far more animal based diet diet than most in the war. all but one lived into their 80s and three into their 90s.

My father on the other hand from a family of 4 who went though rationing as was with the odd poached rabbit thrown in. As a townie and only lived to 69 and the rest until their later 60s and early 70s.

Did you see the programme "Saving Dad"?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

rona said:


> My mother was from a family of 10 that were farmers and therefore had a far more animal based diet diet than most in the war. all but one lived into their 80s and three into their 90s.
> 
> My father on the other hand from a family of 4 who went though rationing as was with the odd poached rabbit thrown in. As a townie and only lived to 69 and the rest until their later 60s and early 70s.
> 
> Did you see the programme "Saving Dad"?


Yes I saw it but sadly my Mum wouldn't watch it


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## Guest (Aug 21, 2016)

Genetics has a lot to do with health and longevity. But you can’t ignore the fact that in cultures where less or no meat is eaten there are fewer incidences of certain cancers, heat disease, and other health issues linked to diet. 

JMO but I don’t think we were designed to eat meat as often as we do in the western world. And I know we weren’t meant to eat heavily processed, cured, and preserved meat. 
Reading “The Omnivore’s Dilema” was an eye opener to the difference between factory farmed meat and meat from animals raised in a more natural environment. There is a difference. And it does affect your health. 
Whether people choose to believe it or not is up to them


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## KATZ1355 (May 30, 2016)

Lurcherlad said:


> As a dairy free pescatarian, I have barely eaten a vegetable all week!
> 
> Veggie, vegan, pesci does not automatically mean a healthy diet!
> 
> ...


I feel sick when I have to cut up any type of meat - have tried the veggie thing though!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

@ouesi have you seen Plant Pure Nation? is it worth a watch? I've only just come across it.


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## Guest (Aug 21, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> @ouesi have you seen Plant Pure Nation? is it worth a watch? I've only just come across it.


No, not seen that one. On netflix?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes I saw it but sadly my Mum wouldn't watch it


That's a shame 

There's so much people can do to improve health. One of my sisters has got to the stage where she's put on so much weight and become so unfit that it just seems like too much of an uphill struggle for her to do anything about it. She's only 5 year older than me with no joint issues but she can barely walk a mile. 
I've started to try and take her out once or twice a week and been encouraging her to walk a little daily. Hopefully, she'll gradually start to see the benefits.

It must be hard when you have health issues, particularly anything painful. I know myself how easy it is to grab a packet of biscuits. I've also got fairly unfit while looking after Alfie. Now he's gone I'm trying to do something about that.

I'm a firm believer in everything in moderation, that's meat, fat, sugar and salt too........................


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> No, not seen that one. On netflix?


Not sure going to have a look this evening. I saw a link/clip on Dr Esselstyn's website. It said from the makers of forks over knives so I think it should be good.

The clip is the top video

http://www.dresselstyn.com/site/video-2/

ETA - its on youtube


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

rona said:


> That's a shame
> 
> There's so much people can do to improve health. One of my sisters has got to the stage where she's put on so much weight and become so unfit that it just seems like too much of an uphill struggle for her to do anything about it. She's only 5 year older than me with no joint issues but she can barely walk a mile.
> I've started to try and take her out once or twice a week and been encouraging her to walk a little daily. Hopefully, she'll gradually start to see the benefits.
> ...


Yes it is a shame, she is so touchy about her health/diet so I have to tread very carefully or we end up falling out. She is very thin and walks quite a lot but she eats too much cheese and too much salt along with other things she really shouldn't.

I am quite fascinated by the history of illness too. As part of my family history research I like to get death certificates. My 3 x great granny (on mother's mother's side) had many legitimate children and spent most of her life in and out of the workhouse as did several of the other women in the family often giving birth there and returning year after year - my ggg granny also died there yet they all lived to decent ages - mostly late 70's - early 80's. Their diets must have been fairly meagre as they were all agricultural labourers who relied on parish handouts or the workhouse yet we don't see any cancer or heart disease deaths until well after WW2.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Goblin said:


> >>>>>>*Even cows and deer eat meat on occasion........*.


Haha! :Hilarious (That _was _a joke right?! )

Cows and deer are herbivores and eat nothing but plant matter. Plant vegetation is very hard to break down into energy so most herbivores have a specialised digestive system, which is different to that of omnivores and carnivores..

Cows eat various types of grasses including wheat grass, alfalfa, clover etc. A cow is a ruminant who chews the grass, swallows it, the food passes through _two_ stomachs to be digested, and then is regurgitated to be re-chewed. The part-digested grass is called cud, and after lots more chewing it is then swallowed into _third_ and _fourth_ stomachs where the nutrients are absorbed into the blood. Herbivores need to graze for long periods every day to gain the energy they need from their food.

A deer is also a ruminant. It eats acorns, leaves, grasses, legumes, clover, apples, berries, mushrooms etc.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

chillminx said:


> Haha! :Hilarious (That _was _a joke right?! )
> 
> Cows and deer are herbivores and eat nothing but plant matter. Plant vegetation is very hard to break down into energy so most herbivores have a specialised digestive system, which is different to that of omnivores and carnivores..
> 
> ...


Have you not seen the video of the deer eating a bird?

Admitted it must have been an incident in a few million, but it did happen apparently

Found it


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

rona said:


> Have you not seen the video of the deer eating a bird?
> 
> Admitted it must have been an incident in a few million, but it did happen apparently
> 
> Found it


Michael, he ate a bird. Did you see that? HE. ATE. A. BIRD!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> Putting aside the ethics of farming animals for food & looking at it from from an ecological angle,a vegan diet is one of the best things an individual can do for the planet. If I knew then what I know now I would have gone vegan years ago & brought my children up on a vegan diet. Consuming animal products is one THE greatest threats facing our living world. It is quite simply unsustainable on this finite planet of ours.
> 
> George Monbiot has just done a very timely article on the subject of veganism. Its well worth a read
> 
> ...


Thank you Nouska05!!  I was reading through this interesting thread and had got to page 5, eagerly waiting for someone to point out what you have expressed so succinctly. 

The hard fact is that meat eaters everywhere, especially those of us in the developed world who eat a lot of meat, just cannot afford to continue eating it in the quantities we do. The planet simply cannot sustain it, particularly with the huge recent rise in demand for meat products from countries such as China.

Even with a massive increase in cruel and intensive farming practices a ready supply of affordable meat will no longer be available within the next few decades. It is not rocket science, but a simple matter of demand exceeding supply.

*Respect* to progressive-thinking, community-minded people like @ouesi, who are raising their children on a healthy meat free diet ) My cousin raised all 7 of her kids as vegans and in addition to being very healthy as children they have matured into healthy adults who have high powered or creative careers.

Our children are our best bet for saving our wonderful planet and should be educated to feel responsible for the planet's future. Kids are already taught in infant school the importance of conserving natural resources by recycling. As a result they do it as a matter of course. There is no reason why they cannot also be taught how unsustainable for the planet it is to eat meat every day.

Children can be free to choose whether or not to eat meat when they go out, but most will choose not to, if they see meat eating in terms of damage to the planet.

Governments should be getting their acts together now and starting major public awareness campaigns, encouraging people to replace most of their meat and dairy meals with nutritious substitutes such as Quorn and legumes, of which there are plenty of tasty examples in the supermarkets. Dairy products can be replaced with alternatives such as soya, nut milks, coconut milk etc (I can vouch that latte or cappuccino is delicious made with soya milk )

School canteens could all set an example by making school lunches meat free. I am sure lovely Jamie Oliver would be happy to step in with some delicious recipes.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Thanks @rona for posting that. Must say I would not have believed if I hadn't seen it ! 

I have just done a quick bit of research and it turns out that deer are actually more omnivorous than herbivorous and are in fact quite a threat to ground nesting birds in some areas, as they commonly eat eggs and hatchlings. They are also apparently known to eat carrion of squirrels and rabbits if they find it.

In my wildest dreams I can't imagine cows eating birds though .


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

http://qz.com/749443/being-vegan-isnt-as-environmentally-friendly-as-you-think/

"the vegan diet wastes available land that could otherwise be used to feed more people."


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

The article does conclude "of course this is not an argument to embrace a meaty diet. The study says that striving for plant-based diets (with a little bit of meat on the side, AT MOST) is the way towards environmental efficiency (in other words using land more sustainably to produce more food)

In my post ^^ I did say that governments should be encouraging people to replace *most *(not all) of their meat and dairy meals with alternatives.


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## Guest (Aug 21, 2016)

rona said:


> http://qz.com/749443/being-vegan-isnt-as-environmentally-friendly-as-you-think/
> 
> "the vegan diet wastes available land that could otherwise be used to feed more people."


Oh please...
Read the entire article, not just the headline.

"Of course, this is not an argument to embrace a meaty diet. The study says striving for plant-based diets (with a little bit of meat on the side, at most) is the way towards environmental efficiency (in other words, using land more sustainably to produce more food).
The average US consumer today requires more than 2.5 acres (over two football fields) of land each year to sustain his or her current diet. That number decreases dramatically as you reduce meat consumption and add in more vegetables. Three of the vegetarian diets examined in the study would use less than 0.5 acres of land per person each yea, freeing up more land to feed more people."

It also doesn't address the fact that vegetarians and vegans are as diverse as any other group and not all eschew meat and animal products for the same reasons. 
Some vegans for example consider oysters an ethical choice as they have no CNS and are an environmentally sustainable and very friendly product.

The fact is, eating factory farmed meat and dairy to the extent we do in the western world is an environmental and ethical disaster.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

chillminx said:


> The article does conclude "of course this is not an argument to embrace a meaty diet. The study says that striving for plant-based diets (with a little bit of meat on the side, AT MOST) is the way towards environmental efficiency (in other words using land more sustainably to produce more food)
> 
> In my post ^^ I did say that governments should be encouraging people to replace *most *(not all) of their meat and dairy meals with alternatives.


As I said, everything in moderation 
I hardly eat meat these days, though I go through fazes with food stuffs of all kinds. I believe my body knows best what it needs


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

@rona this is what Dr McDougall says about moderation

*The Current Health Crisis Deserves an Extreme Response*

William Lloyd Garrison (1805 - 1879), known for his anti-slavery activities, clearly understood the shortcomings of moderation, "Tell a man whose house is on fire to give a moderate alarm; tell him to moderately rescue his wife from the hands of the ravisher; tell the mother to gradually extricate her babe from the fire into which it has fallen; but urge me not to use moderation."

The startling observation that almost all people living in Western societies are fat and/or sick with diseases which will wreck and shorten their lives, should have health professionals up in arms, demanding an immediate and complete end to this senseless suffering-regardless of the expense and effort. But, for some unexplainable reason, the loss of a father and husband to a heart attack, the disfigurement of a mother by breast cancer, and the blinding of a friend from diabetes are accepted consequences for our birthright to eat like aristocrats. To mitigate these tragedies we are told to eat a little less of the same.

*One Man's Meat Is another Man's Poison*

The definition of "moderate behavior" lies in the eyes of the beholder. An abstainer from alcohol would likely consider daily drinking an extreme behavior and would not be swayed by the scientific fact that the lowest risk of death is found among people who consume an average of one drink per day.1 An alcoholic would consider only one daily drink to be an extreme sacrifice.

By most people's standards I am considered extreme because I eat a diet of starches, fruits and vegetables 363 days of the year. On Thanksgiving I may have a small slice of turkey and on Easter I have been known to indulge in an egg white or two. But to many ethical vegetarians my semi-yearly indulgences are traitorous and extreme acts.

When it comes to diet, what is commonly consumed by a population is considered "proper nutrition." For example, the Japanese of the early 20th century thought rice and a few vegetables were ideal foods, and late 20th century Americans thought meat and cheese were perfect nutrition. However, a more rational approach would be to regard "proper nutrition" to be the diet that best supports human health and a robust appearance. This would be the diet consumed by moderate people.

Based on my understanding, the diet which is best for people is composed of chiefly unprocessed starches, vegetables and fruits-with the inclusion of minimal amounts of rich food for special occasions-but if you are very sick or are addicted to these delicacies, then these treats should be strictly avoided.

*Moderation Is Too Hard*

Westerners are completely addicted to their steaks, cheeses, and pies. Attempts at moderation guarantee continued dependence and continued failure. "Everything in moderation" has been preached to every generation throughout human history. Didn't work way back then and it doesn't work for folks today.

Have you ever met a smoker who quit by cutting down?-I haven't. Have you ever heard of an alcoholic who sobered up by switching to beer?-neither have I. These moderate approaches keep the addicting agent within easy reach. The only effective means to overcome these destructive habits is to remove the powerful substance from a person's life-repeated teasing with small fixes of the drugs (tobacco and alcohol) means unending torture and a quick return to the usual levels of use to avoid the pain.

Cutting down on the portion size of fried chicken, gravy biscuits, and ice cream is slow torture and is one of the primary reasons diets fail. Simply put, these high-fat, high-salt, high-sugar foods are just too attractive for most mortals to resist-especially for those of us with a passionate (compulsive, lustful, obsessive, enthusiastic, etc.) nature.

*Extreme Change Returns Tremendous Rewards*
After failing by trying to moderate their eating behaviors, people think "I give up! The problem is with me-I just don't have enough discipline or maybe I'm genetically defective." But, moderate change must, by definition, return little benefit. Consider this well-known approach for weight loss: Of all popular diets encouraging sensible moderate eating behaviors, Weight Watchers was found to have the largest reported loss of 3.2% of initial weight at 2 years.2 That means a 200 pound woman can expect, on average, to lose a little over 6 pounds after 2 years of moderate eating. Big deal!

And another moderate approach that guarantees disappointment is the National Cholesterol Education Program Step 2 diet (30% of calories or less as total fat, less than 7% saturated fat, and less than 200 mg cholesterol per day).3 After one year dieters achieved a decrease in total cholesterol of 5 percent-that's 13 points for someone starting at a level of 260 mg/dl. Another big deal!

People trying to lose weight and improve their health with these approaches have to learn all new information on what foods to eat and how to fix the foods, and then they have to learn to like these new meals. After all this effort they lose a meager 6 pounds and drop their dangerously high cholesterol by only 13 points. They are confused and discouraged, and feel hopelessly out of control.

Now consider what happens when someone goes through the same amount of effort to learn to prepare and enjoy a really effective diet. After a month he or she has lost 10 to 20 pounds, cholesterol is down 50 points, indigestion, constipation, headaches and arthritis are gone. The rewards are undeniable and they serve as motivation to continue. Soon the new foods become that person's favorite foods. If regression (cheating) does occur, the immediate penalty can be a painful return of the indigestion, stomach aches and bowel distress.

*I'm Me-and I Have Learned to Live within My Limits*

Throughout my entire life I have been enthusiastic about everything-my schoolwork, my hobbies, my sports, the whole lot of life. I was born this way-and scientific research establishes the fact that like the color of our eyes and hair, our personality traits are determined in part by complex genetics.4,5 Early life experiences fostered my exuberant nature. So now, even if I wanted to, I could not become a "moderate person." Still, I love life and do not want my high-spirited personality to kill me. So I have found the solution.

I now direct my energies towards supportive, not destructive, behaviors. I have learned to love healthy foods. Windsurfing is my passion. I eagerly look forward to long walks with my grandson carried in a backpack. I spend a little extra money to indulge myself with bottled water. My favorite drink is herbal tea-and I do drink a lot of it. I fill my lungs with fresh air cleaned by an air purifier. I passionately pursue every "good thing" in life.

Irish poet and dramatist, Oscar Wilde said: "Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." I encourage you to take these words to heart and live life enthusiastically, and well-informed.


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## Guest (Aug 21, 2016)

rona said:


> As I said, everything in moderation


I used to say that, but I do think there are some foods (or I should say additives and pseudo foods) that aren't even okay in moderation.
Nitrates for example. There is just no need, not even in moderation.
Soda, again, whether it's high fructose corn syrup or aspartame, I don't think there is room for "moderation" with either. No, I don't think one soda will kill you, but I don't think there's a place for soda even in a "moderation" diet.

There are some scary foods out there and food additives that just aren't worth ingesting in any quantity. JMO of course....

ETA: @rottiepointerhouse great minds!! LOL!


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

ouesi said:


> I used to say that, but I do think there are some foods (or I should say additives and pseudo foods) that aren't even okay in moderation.
> Nitrates for example. There is just no need, not even in moderation.
> Soda, again, whether it's high fructose corn syrup or aspartame, I don't think there is room for "moderation" with either. No, I don't think one soda will kill you, but I don't think there's a place for soda even in a "moderation" diet.
> 
> ...


I have to say I agree with this. I personally don't think it's meat so much that's the health issue, as what the producers to to it, i.e. factory farming and the artificial additives that it gets pumped with. The problem is, it can be hard (not to mention expensive) to find products that don't have this done to them


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## Guest (Aug 21, 2016)

NaomiM said:


> I have to say I agree with this. I personally don't think it's meat so much that's the health issue, as what the producers to to it, i.e. factory farming and the artificial additives that it gets pumped with. The problem is, it can be hard (not to mention expensive) to find products that don't have this done to them


It's very expensive! 
We eat a lot of produce but our grocery bills are not bad. 
Granted I have two 13 year olds who are currently eating me out of house and home... 
Son came down this morning and just casually ate 4 bananas before breakfast. I swear I have no idea where he puts all the food....


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

chillminx said:


> Haha! :Hilarious (That _was _a joke right?! )
> 
> Cows and deer are herbivores and eat nothing but plant matter. Plant vegetation is very hard to break down into energy so most herbivores have a specialised digestive system, which is different to that of omnivores and carnivores..
> 
> ...


Goats eat meat: to be precise, placentas not belonging to them, when not in kid themselves. This lovely girl ate the whole of a sheep's placenta, and was trying to lick the blood still dripping from the ewe for a couple of days afterwards!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

*Animal Protein Linked to Death*
By Thomas Campbell, MD August 1, 2016










A study released this week[1] shows that among two very large American study populations (female nurses and male health professionals), those that consumed the most animal protein compared to plant protein had a higher risk of death, particularly cardiovascular disease. The finding was limited to those who also had one other lifestyle risk factor such as physical inactivity or smoking. Breaking it down into specific foods, researchers found that substituting 3% of total energy consumed from plant protein for an equivalent amount of protein from processed red meat was linked to 34% lower risk of death.

These findings are even more impressive when you consider the fact that researchers controlled for age, intake of different types of fat, total energy intake, glycemic index, and intake of whole grains, fiber, fruits and vegetables, smoking, body mass index, vitamin use, physical activity, alcohol intake, history of high blood pressure. In other words, they statistically eliminated many of the beneficial components of plant-based diets to try to isolate the sole effect of dietary protein and still found an effect. When data was adjusted only for age, total energy and fat intake, those consuming the most plant protein were found to have 33% reduced risk of death, 40% reduced risk of cardiovascular death, and 28% reduced risk of cancer death.

This is even more remarkable given the meat-centered diets that study subjects were consuming. Researchers divided the population into groups based on the amount of protein consumed. Even those consuming the most plant-protein consumed almost 60% more animal protein than they did plant protein. None of these groups were consuming anything remotely similar to the whole-food plant-based diet that has been shown to halt or reverse advanced heart disease, diabetes, and early stage prostate cancer.

*Bottom line:* even among groups of Americans consuming meat and processed food-based diets, there are likely to be survival benefits to accrue from incorporating more plant-based sources of protein.

*References*

 Song M, Fung T, Hu FB, et al. Association of Animal and Plant Protein Intake With All-Cause and Cause-Specific Mortality. JAMA Intern Med 2016.

*Thomas Campbell, MD*

Thomas M. Campbell, MD is medical director of the T. Colin Campbell Center for Nutrition Studies. As part of his groundbreaking UR Program for Nutrition in Medicine, he works in Rochester, NY, with individual patients and groups to optimize health and prevent and treat illness using nutrition and lifestyle. He is co-author of _The China Study_and author of _The China Study Solution_.


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## KATZ1355 (May 30, 2016)

rona said:


> That's a shame
> 
> There's so much people can do to improve health. One of my sisters has got to the stage where she's put on so much weight and become so unfit that it just seems like too much of an uphill struggle for her to do anything about it. She's only 5 year older than me with no joint issues but she can barely walk a mile.
> I've started to try and take her out once or twice a week and been encouraging her to walk a little daily. Hopefully, she'll gradually start to see the benefits.
> ...


I rarely use salt - but you find it in processed foods so much - I do not buy many processed foods - the odd one as a 'stand by' in the freezer though.It is a well known fact that we in the UK have the highest obesity rate outside of the USA. I always try and cook a decent healthy meal - it's so simple really,and basically I think most people are far too lazy these days.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> *Animal Protein Linked to Death*
> By Thomas Campbell, MD August 1, 2016
> 
> 
> ...


These people aren't impressed with this guys methods or conclusions in his last study.
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/385/

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

rona said:


> These people are impressed with this guys methods or conclusions in his last study.
> https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/385/
> 
> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html


Yes I've seen that review of the China Study which was carried out by his father T Colin Campbell - Thomas Campbell (the son) co authored the book which I've got - its next of my to read list. The critic you have quoted Harriet A Hall is a sceptic of anything remotely "alternative". Colin T Campbell says in his bio "I have spent 50 years lecturing about and carrying out research on the complex effects of food and nutrition on health. I've has been a member of many "expert" committees that evaluated and formulated national and international policies on food and health. I've published more that 350 research papers, most of which were peer-reviewed in the very best scientific journals and have served on the editorial review boards of several top-flight scientific journals." He has made a lot of enemies along the way and many have tried to discredit his work because it threatens their livelihoods, their profits and their long held beliefs. I'm not a fan of all of his work because he did use rats/mice in the early days but he is very well respected in the field whereas I'm not sure Harriet Hall is.

More info about him

http://nutritionstudies.org/about/board/dr-t-colin-campbell/


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

chillminx said:


> Haha! :Hilarious (That _was _a joke right?! )


Rona responded quite nicely. There's a book called Deadly Equines by a Cuchallaines O'Reilly which apparantly chronicles examples of carnivorous horses including both historical and looking at legends and fables. One example is the legend of Hercules overthrowing a dictator and casting his carcass to the dictator's own horses to be devoured. Other animals seen to eat meat include sheep, cows, hippos, beavers, pandas, elephants, kangaroos and I am sure there are many more. On the flip side you also have carnivores which have been seen munching on veg. Wolves eating berries immediately springs to mind. Oryx are known to munch bones as are giraffes.


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## saffysmum (Feb 11, 2015)

[QUOTE="Nettles, post:It's a bit of everything I suppose.. I love the fizz, and don't really like the flavour of anything else. I suffer fizzy water and fruit juice now and again, but it's the migraines when I try to cut down on the caffeine that I really can't bare.[/QUOTE]

I had the same problem in my late teens with chocolate and migraines. I love chocolate, but it will give me headaches; so when I was about 18/19, I decided to make a NY resolution to quit eating chocolate. 
For at least a month of abstention, I had pretty much a constant migraine and felt like total sh1t :Hungover
However, perseverance and willpower helped me break the habit and now, I can eat *some* chocolate with no problems. I still get occasional migraines, but now more stress related than anything else.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

If anyone is interested

http://plantpuresummit.com/


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## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

I reread a lot of the information on studies about plant vs meat based diets; most of them compare vegetarian diets to those who eat red meat. Would anyone happen to know of any studies that include statistics on vegetarianism vs eating white meat only?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

KatieandOliver said:


> I reread a lot of the information on studies about plant vs meat based diets; most of them compare vegetarian diets to those who eat red meat. Would anyone happen to know of any studies that include statistics on vegetarianism vs eating white meat only?


If you have a look at this link he links further to many studies involving chicken. Not sure if that is the sort of thing you are interested in.

http://nutritionfacts.org/topics/chicken/


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## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> If you have a look at this link he links further to many studies involving chicken. Not sure if that is the sort of thing you are interested in.
> 
> http://nutritionfacts.org/topics/chicken/


That is very interesting, thank you  although very disconcerting... I love chicken.


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## AnimalzRock (Jul 2, 2014)

Goblin said:


> Rona responded quite nicely. There's a book called Deadly Equines by a Cuchallaines O'Reilly which apparantly chronicles examples of carnivorous horses including both historical and looking at legends and fables. One example is the legend of Hercules overthrowing a dictator and casting his carcass to the dictator's own horses to be devoured. Other animals seen to eat meat include sheep, cows, hippos, beavers, pandas, elephants, kangaroos and I am sure there are many more. On the flip side you also have carnivores which have been seen munching on veg. Wolves eating berries immediately springs to mind. Oryx are known to munch bones as are giraffes.


I know from experience that rabbits will eat their own young. This is usually when they feel threatened, but they will definitely kill and eat them.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

A major new study is making the headlines today with claims that vegans live longer.

The study, published in the _JAMA Internal Medicine Journal_, followed the diets, health and mortality of over 130,000 people over the course of thirty years. It found that every three per cent increase in calories from plant protein was found to reduce risk of death by 10 per cent.

Looking at separate food groups, the results revealed that replacing processed meat with plant protein reduced the risk of death by astonishing 34 per cent, replacing eggs saw the risk fall by 19 per cent and swapping unprocessed red meat for plants decreased the risk by 12 per cent.

Perhaps predictably, the risk of premature death was increased for people with other risk factors such as smoking, excessive drinking or being obese.

This study is the newest addition to a growing body of evidence showing how beneficial vegan diets can be. See our sectionLongevity and Mortality for more information on this topic.

It's becoming more and more obvious that the source of protein in our diets matters a great deal, with animal protein having been linked to diseases such as cancer, kidney disease, gallstones, osteoporosis and heart disease - see our Vegan Health pages or The Incredible Vegan Health Report for more information.

For tasty vegan meal inspiration see Vegan Recipe Club and for guidance on how to go vegan and do it well, check out our 30 Day Vegan programme!

Link to the study

http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=2540540


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## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

This thread is great. All the information is helping me make informed choices about changing my diet. I am currently thinking about eating a pescetarien diet (I have a lot of texture and taste issues, so vegan would be difficult for me) with limited dairy intake and no eggs. I am going to draw up a list of what things I think I should and shouldn't eat (of the foods that I like) and see if it is doable, as I also have a lot of difficulties with cooking. I am very much looking forward to a healthier diet and lifestyle and have all you guys hear to thank, particularly @rottiepointerhouse who has posted loads of really helpful information


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

KatieandOliver said:


> This thread is great. All the information is helping me make informed choices about changing my diet. I am currently thinking about eating a pescetarien diet (I have a lot of texture and taste issues, so vegan would be difficult for me) with limited dairy intake and no eggs. I am going to draw up a list of what things I think I should and shouldn't eat (of the foods that I like) and see if it is doable, as I also have a lot of difficulties with cooking. I am very much looking forward to a healthier diet and lifestyle and have all you guys hear to thank, particularly @rottiepointerhouse who has posted loads of really helpful information


Good for you, any questions just ask


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

KatieandOliver said:


> This thread is great. All the information is helping me make informed choices about changing my diet. I am currently thinking about eating a pescetarien diet (I have a lot of texture and taste issues, so vegan would be difficult for me) with limited dairy intake and no eggs. I am going to draw up a list of what things I think I should and shouldn't eat (of the foods that I like) and see if it is doable, as I also have a lot of difficulties with cooking. I am very much looking forward to a healthier diet and lifestyle and have all you guys hear to thank, particularly @rottiepointerhouse who has posted loads of really helpful information


Don't you like eggs? Because if you do but are ruling them out because of welfare issues, you could always keep your own chickens. Or would Oliver think that was dinner on legs?!!


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## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

CuddleMonster said:


> Don't you like eggs? Because if you do but are ruling them out because of welfare issues, you could always keep your own chickens. Or would Oliver think that was dinner on legs?!!


I couldn't keep chickens where I currently live, and I did read a lot about eggs being bad for you. However, there is a lot to be said on the other side.... I don't know very much about keeping chickens (I will be moving before next year and may be able to keep them where I move to) do they need vaccinations?


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

KatieandOliver said:


> I couldn't keep chickens where I currently live, and I did read a lot about eggs being bad for you. However, there is a lot to be said on the other side.... I don't know very much about keeping chickens (I will be moving before next year and may be able to keep them where I move to) do they need vaccinations?


You can get vaccinations for chickens, but usually only either vaccinated at day old, or else fed chicken crumb with coccidiostats in for first few weeks. If you buy healthy point of lay ( about 4 months old) they won't need anything else vaccine wise unless you plan on keeping them in their hundreds! They need worming occasionally, there is a " withdrawl period" after worming when you can't eat the eggs, so best to time it when they go " off lay" anyway to moult.

They lay regardless of there being a cock ( seems obvious, but I get asked that a lot), so you don't need one if neighbours will grumble.

Different bird breeds have different characteristics :

Brown hybrid hen lays very well for first couple of years, pale brown or cream eggs.

Marans lay really dark brown shiny eggs, Welsummers lay really dark brown matt eggs.

Appenzellars are like dalmatians, with punk hairdos. They lay a white egg, and like perching in trees if any available.

Silkies are fluffy ( so don't like the rain), have black skin under their feathers, and make amazing broodies but are poor layers themselves.

Aruacana and cream legbars lay blue/green eggs.

As a beginner I'd get 4 point of lay at the same time, so can sort out their " pecking order" only once. Different birds with different colour eggs is nice so you know who laid which egg if pets, 4 hybrids if you want to guarantee 3 or 4 eggs every day for freinds and family customers, but a bit boring egg colour wise. The egg she'll colour depends on the breed, the egg yolk colour depends on diet: the more free range, with plants and worms, the richer orange the yolk.

If you have any questions you can always pm me, my best advice if you're thinking about it us to subscribe to the monthly magazine " Country Smallholding ", which has a whole pull out poultry section in the middle, plus loads of interesting articles on sheep, pigs, veg patches and recipes.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Catharinem said:


> You can get vaccinations for chickens, but usually only either vaccinated at day old, or else fed chicken crumb with coccidiostats in for first few weeks. If you buy healthy point of lay ( about 4 months old) they won't need anything else vaccine wise unless you plan on keeping them in their hundreds! They need worming occasionally, there is a " withdrawl period" after worming when you can't eat the eggs, so best to time it when they go " off lay" anyway to moult.
> 
> They lay regardless of there being a cock ( seems obvious, but I get asked that a lot), so you don't need one if neighbours will grumble.
> 
> ...


Fab info @catherinem
I did some research into owning chickens a few years ago, but we were renting at the time and the landlord said no  He said chickens attract rats.. Is there much truth in that?


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

Nettles said:


> Fab info @catherinem
> I did some research into owning chickens a few years ago, but we were renting at the time and the landlord said no  He said chickens attract rats.. Is there much truth in that?


It's more the chicken food that attracts the rats. As long as you don't leave stuff lying around where they can get it, it shouldn't be a problem.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

CuddleMonster said:


> It's more the chicken food that attracts the rats. As long as you don't leave stuff lying around where they can get it, it shouldn't be a problem.


As above, you answered first.

Feed in morning, so none left lying around at night, and make sure run is ratproof as well as foxproof.


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## KATZ1355 (May 30, 2016)

Nettles said:


> Fab info @catherinem
> I did some research into owning chickens a few years ago, but we were renting at the time and the landlord said no  He said chickens attract rats.. Is there much truth in that?


I read somewhere that you are never far away from rats where ever you live!
Even if you put food out for birds, a rat will soon find it.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

Same thing applies - only put out as much bird food as the birds will eat in one day so it's all gone by nightfall. Rats are always going to be nearby, but this way, at least you aren't encouraging them to move in with you!

A lady living near us has loads of food scattered round constantly, leaves it out overnight etc and her place is swarming with rats even in broad daylight.

I guess rats are a bit like burglars - you can't stop them coming, but you can make it so difficult & unrewarding that it's easier for them to go next door :Shifty


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